Sitting of 14 April 1943

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  FOREIGN SERVICE

    Research Department
    Mr. Molsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the incorporation into the Foreign Office of the Foreign Research and Press Service of the Royal Institute of International Affairs?
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): At the beginning of the war the Royal Institute of International Affairs placed at the disposal of the Foreign Office their extensive reference library and certain members of their permanent staff. This was the nucleus of the Foreign Research and Press Service, which has been located at Balliol College, Oxford, and has served the Foreign Office and other Government Departments in following the foreign Press and in providing memoranda and notes covering the whole range of international affairs. The cost has hitherto been borne by the Royal Institute of International Affairs, assisted by a grant-in-aid from His Majesty's Government and by help in the form of personnel lent by the University of Oxford and certain Oxford colleges. This research and reference work has been highly valued, and I have judged it advisable to associate this organisation still more closely with my Department by transferring the administrative control and the entire cost from the Royal Institute of International Affairs to the Foreign Office and by removing the organisation to London, where it will henceforth be known as the Foreign Office Research Department. I am making available in the Library of the House the correspondence which has passed between the Chairman of the Council of the Royal Institute of International Affairs and myself on this subject.
    Mr. Molson: Was the purpose of this transfer to do away with a certain amount of overlapping that previously occurred between this department in Oxford and a branch of the Foreign Office?
    Mr. Eden: Yes, I felt the work was so important that it was more convenient to have this department here, and I am satisfied that there will be a saving in personnel and in expense as a result of the change.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Can any Member of the House have these speakers' notes on application?
    Mr. Eden: I do not think they are quite speakers' notes.
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: Will the right hon. Gentleman restore the Royal Institute of International Affairs to its complete independence when the emergency comes to an end?
    Mr. Eden: That independence is complete and unimpaired now. It is only a matter of the use we are making of some staff which they have lent to us.

    Foreign Languages
    Mr. R. Morganasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in connection with the reform of the Diplomatic Service, he is subsidising the learning of foreign languages by young men and what are the languages in question?
    Mr. Eden: In reply to the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to paragraph 18 of Command Paper 6420, and in reply to the second part to the answer given on 31st March by my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hands-worth (Commander Locker-Lampson).

  HUNGARY (MR. MACARTNEY'S BROADCASTS)
  Mr. Molsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it was with his authority that Mr. Macartney employed in the Foreign Office, encouraged Hungarian revisionist claims against Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia; and, if not, whether he will publicly repudiate him?
  Mr. Eden: I am not aware that Mr. Macartney, whose official activities and regular broadcasts to Hungary have been based upon the policy laid down by His Majesty's Government, has afforded any encouragement to Hungarian revisionist claims against our Allies. If, however, my hon. Friend has any special occasion in mind and will furnish me with full particulars, I shall be very glad to consider the matter.
  Mr. Molson: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that this official, as he now is, has broadcast to Hungary indicating that they may have a reasonable expectation of a revision of boundaries, which would be at the expense of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?
  Mr. Eden: I would very much like to see the passage to which my hon. Friend refers, if he could show it to me. I have had careful inquiry made into these broadcasts.

  HULL TRAWLER (ICELANDIC GUN-BOAT INCIDENT)
  Mr. Muffasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the lives of the crew of the Hull trawler, "War Grey," were endangered when she was fired upon by an Icelandic gun-boat upon the high seas and damaged; that the trawler was taken into an Iceland port; that the gear and catch were confiscated; the skipper fined £1,553 and sent to prison for two months; and, as this trawler was fishing outside the three miles limit, what steps he proposes to take to free a British subject detained by a friendly Power protected by the British Navy.
  Mr. Eden: As regards the first part of the Question, it is alleged by the Icelandic authorities that the Icelandic gun-boat had to fire on the "War Grey" because she refused to stop when called upon to do so. As regards the second, third and fourth parts, the facts are, according to my information, as stated by my hon. Friend. The skipper has appealed against the sentence. As regards the last part of the Question, the charge brought against the skipper was one of fishing in prohibited waters off Iceland, abducting an officer from an Icelandic coastguard vessel and disregarding signals to stop.
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  His Majesty's Representative at Reykjavik has been instructed to forward a full report on the case and on the court proceedings. When this report has been received all the evidence will be carefully examined. Until this has been done, I would prefer to reserve judgment.
  Mr. Muff: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the mate of this trawler has returned to this country and that he is categorical in his statements that they were fishing outside the three-mile limit, that they tried for 24 hours to put this officer of the unfriendly Icelandic Government on shore, that this boat was hit 20 times at 30 yards range——
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is giving information instead of asking for it.
  Mr. Muff: Will you allow me this final question of 20 words? Will my right hon. Friend see to it that this British subject has counsel to help him, with no admiral there?
  Mr. Eden: I have no doubt that our Consul will help him, and I can assure my hon. Friend that when I have the full report I will arrange to go into it and discuss it with him.
  Mr. Muff: We want an hour of Palmerston.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Eden will do for us.

  MADAGASCAR (ESSENTIAL COMMODITIES)
  Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the hardship caused to the civilian inhabitants of Madagascar through the grave shortage of clothing materials; and whether efforts are being made to supply cotton cloth and other necessary piece goods, as well as other essential commodities, to take the place of goods which can no longer be obtained from France?
  Mr. Eden: I am aware of the grave shortage of clothing and other necessary materials from which Madagascar has suffered as a result of a long period of economic isolation. All possible steps are being taken to ensure that Madagascar is allotted a generous share of the limited

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  goods available from the appropriate sources and that these goods are shipped with the least possible delay.
  Mr. Harvey: While I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply, will he see that special care is taken, in view of the impending cool season in Madagascar, to get the necessary supplies?
  Mr. Eden: We are doing what we can. My hon. Friend will know the difficulties both in regard to shipping and supplies.
  Major Petherick: While sympathising with the object of this Question, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will cause to be explained to the inhabitants of Madagascar that there is a very great shortage of material in this country?

  JEWS AND CHAINED PRISONERS OF WAR (PAPAL INTERVENTION)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will take advantage of the presence in this country of the British Minister to the Vatican to discuss with him the possibility of requesting His Holiness the Pope to intervene on behalf of Jews in Nazi-dominated territory and in the matter of the chaining of prisoners, respectively?
  Mr. Eden: The work of the Vatican for the relief of suffering resulting from the war is well known. The possibility of enlisting the assistance of His Holiness the Pope in favour of the categories of persons referred to by my hon. Friend will no doubt be borne in mind in the course of any discussions on the subject with His Majesty's Minister to the Holy See during his presence in this country.
  Mr. Driberg: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are recent precedents for Papal intervention in these matters?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, I will bear that in mind.

  ENEMY-OCCUPIED EUROPE (FOOD SUPPLIES)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he discussed with the Government of the United States of America the question of war-time food relief to certain European areas; and
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  whether he will state the attitude of the United States Government on this matter?
  Mr. Eden: I have nothing to add to the account of my visit to the United States of America which I gave to the House on 8th April. As regards the second part of the Question, I cannot of course speak for Governments other than His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Sorensen: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether at any time he is likely to make any statement regarding this matter, particularly in relation to the United States of America? Is it quite impossible to expect any kind of statement?
  Mr. Eden: I could not give a promise. I should like to consider that.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Air Training Corps
    Sir Lindsay Everardasked the Secretary of State for Air whether it is the intention of the Government to maintain the Air Training Corps after the termination of the war?
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): Yes, Sir. That is the present intention.
    Captain Sir William Brass: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the importance of giving these lads an opportunity of visiting the Dominions after the war?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir.

    Educational Service (Commissions)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that experienced teachers, who are doing good work in the education branch of the Royal Air Force, are debarred from holding commissions unless they are university graduates; and if he will consider removing this disqualification?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Airmen are employed to assist education officers but only in clerical and minor administrative duties or as occasional part-time teachers. A number of these airmen have had teaching experience in civil life, and some have been appointed to the R.A.F. Educational Service and given commissions in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Such appointments normally depend upon the

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    possession of a university degree or equivalent qualification, and I am satisfied that this standard should be maintained in the interests of efficiency. There is, of course, nothing to prevent an airman who does not possess such a qualification from being considered for commissioning for other duties in the Royal Air Force.
    Mr. Driberg: When the right hon. Gentleman says "normally," may we take it to mean that he does make exceptions to this rule in the case of exceptionally talented teachers?
    Sir A. Sinclair: It is possible to make such exceptions, but at the present moment there is a sufficient supply of airmen with the university qualification and I rather doubt whether any exceptions will be made.
    Mr. Robert Morgan: Is the Secretary of State aware that the term "commission" is a misleading one when applied to the R.A.F. Educational Service as they have to work under certain conditions and are not accorded the rights and privileges of other commissioned officers?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I would ask my hon. Friend to put down that Question.

    Women Medical Officers
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for Air whether members of the Royal Air Force are compelled to submit themselves to routine medical examinations by female medical officers, and whether any such practice exists in the Royal Air Force?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Royal Air Force personnel may be compelled to undergo routine medical examination which may be undertaken by a woman medical officer. In practice, male medical officers perform these duties save in very exceptional circumstances.

    Leased and Purchased Land
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Air (1) the total rateable value of the 10,400 acres of land held on lease by his Ministry at an annual rental of £40,267;
    (2) the total rateable value of the 58,223 acres of land purchased by his Ministry in Great Britain since 31st December, 1938, at an inclusive cost of £3,760,433?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I regret that the desired information could not be provided without a considerable expenditure of time and effort, which would not be justified in present circumstances.
    Mr. Stokes: If that is the case, will my right hon. Friend explain how he arrives at the values?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Perhaps my hon. Friend would put down a Question on the point, when I should be very glad to look into it.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that these figures of rentals paid by his Department are excessive?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I have no reason to suppose they are, but if my hon. Friend has any reason to suppose so, I shall very gladly investigate the matter.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman not regard these figures as a reasonable motive for putting such a Question?
    Sir A. Sinclair: These are leases which were entered into, most of them, some time ago.

    Women's Auxiliary Air Force (Northern Ireland)
    Dr. Littleasked the Secretary of State for Air why volunteer girls from Northern Ireland are debarred from joining the Women's Auxiliary Air Force while girls from neutral Eire are being accepted; and whether he will take immediate steps to have this bar to their recruitment for the Women's Auxiliary Air Force removed?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The restriction to which the hon. Member refers has recently been removed.
    Mr. Logan: Am I to understand that there is an idea for Northern Ireland that you must not recruit at all from what is termed a neutral portion of Ireland?
    Sir A. Sinclair: It is not my object, Sir.

  BRITISH OVERSEAS AIRWAYS CORPORATION

    Executive Control
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware of

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    the need in responsible executive positions in British air transport of men who have previous experience of this subject; and what action he proposes to take towards this end?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The responsibility for making appointments to executive positions in civil air transport rests not with me but with the operating organisations, who, I have no doubt, give due weight to the consideration to which my hon. Friend refers.
    Mr. Simmonds: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is universal apprehension at the unhappy state of the executive control of the Corporation, and will he seek out, even throughout the Empire, men who have had experience in air transport, and not merely rely upon successful business men or chartered accountants?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Executive control is in the hands of people with technical qualifications—executive control as opposed to policy direction. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of the qualifications which, he has suggested, should be possessed by those in executive positions.
    Mr. Perkins: Will the right hon. Gentleman sign the Motion on the Order Paper?

    Pilots (Flying Hours)
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware of the excellent record of the flying-boat and landplane captains of the British Overseas Airways Corporation; and whether he will state the average of the total hours flown and total miles covered by the 12 pilots who have most flying hours to their credit?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I am well aware of the excellent record of the pilots of the British Overseas Airways Corporation, and I welcome this further opportunity of paying tribute to their courage and efficiency. The 12 pilots with the most flying hours to their credit have each flown on an average 13,200 hours, covering about 1,320,000 miles.
    Mr. Simmonds: Does not this show that there is nothing wrong with the flying side of British civil aviation? Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the executive and
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    managerial sides are equally strengthened? Would he also be good enough to publish the names of these pilots in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Perhaps my hon. Friend would put down a Question which would ensure that being done. I can hardly do it, except in answer to a Question. I certainly have frequently paid tribute to the courage and skill of these crews.
    Sir Malcolm Robertson: Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that a Member of this House very recently travelled more than 14,000 miles in these flying boats and that it would be very difficult indeed to pay too high a tribute to the efficiency, courage, consideration and endurance of all the captains and crews?

    Constitution of Board
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Prime Minister whether he will give the House an opportunity of discussing the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Stroud and other Members.
    [To move that this House feels that it is essential that the present Board of British Overseas Airways should be strengthened by the appointment of additional directors with civil flying experience.]
    Mr. Eden: I regret that in the present state of public business time cannot be afforded for the discussion of my hon. Friend's Motion, but I would remind him that a day has already been promised for a Debate on Civil Aviation.
    Mr. Perkins: Am I to understand, in view of the very important statement made by the Secretary of State for Air to-day, that he agrees, in effect, with this Motion, that the Motion will be accepted by the Government?
    Mr. Eden: I do not think my hon. Friend should jump quite so rapidly to that conclusion. What I said was that we are to have a Debate. How the Debate takes place can perhaps be discussed.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the state of public business, would the Government not consider passing the Scottish Hydro-Electric Bill over to the Scottish Grand Committee?

  MESSRS. SHORT BROTHERS
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether it was inefficiency on the part of the management of Short Brothers, Limited, which induced him to replace the former directors?
  The Minister of Aircraft Production (Sir Stafford Cripps): Before taking any action with regard to this firm I had had a thorough inquiry carried out by the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir George Schuster) and Mr. Robert Barlow (Chairman of the Minister of Production's Industrial Panel), and it was as a result of their report that I decided it was necessary for me to take some action to safeguard aircraft production. I subsequently decided that it was necessary to change the directorate.
  Sir T. Moore: Further to that Question, may we assume that it was because of the obstructive action of former directors that the Government were compelled to take over the shares also?
  Sir S. Cripps: There were difficulties which could be solved only by the action which I took.
  Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman believe that his action is received with the utmost approbation on this side of the House?
  Mr. G. Griffiths: And all over the country.
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Aircraft Production why action was taken against Messrs. Short Brothers, Limited; what is to be allowed in cash for each £1 preference share, for each A ordinary 5s. share and for each ordinary 5s. share; and will he publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the larger holders of shares and the total amount each person, trust, bank, insurance company or nominees are to receive?
  Sir S. Cripps: In answer to the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave on 31st March to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson). As regards the second part of the Question, it is for the Treasury to specify the price to be paid for the shares, subject to the right of appeal given in Defence Regulation 78, paragraph 7. I understand that the Treasury expect to come to an early decision. As
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  regards the last part of the Question, the list of individual shareholders and the amount of their holding can be obtained from the company's file at Somerset House.

  MINISTRY OF AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (SUNDAY THEATRES, CANVASS)
  Commander Locker-Lampsonasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he is aware that the staff at the Ministry have recently been canvassed to vote for the opening of theatres on Sunday and that this canvassing involved the signing of forms only in favour of opening; and whether he will take steps to prevent this waste of time of war workers?
  Sir S. Cripps: In a purely personal capacity, a member of the staff, who has now been admonished, sought the support of some of his colleagues in this matter. Only a very small number of people were involved, and suitable action has been taken to prevent such unauthorised activities.
  Sir Herbert Williams: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the hon. and gallant Member recently brought 100 pretty girls here to canvass Members of Parliament in the opposite direction?
  Mr. G. Griffiths: I am glad they did not approach the hon. Member.

  POST OFFICE

    Parcels for Prisoners of War (Pilferages)
    Mr. Mathersasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the large number of pilferages from parcels sent by relatives to British prisoners of War, especially tobacco parcels, before leaving this country, he will authorise the omission of the special Inland Revenue label which declares the contents and thus attracts the attention of persons committing the offences?
    The Postmaster-General (Captain Crookshank): I have no evidence that pilferages from parcels sent by relatives of British prisoners of war occur on any appreciable scale before despatch from this country. Parcels of tobacco, despatched through a holder of a censorship permit, are exported on drawback or out of bond and, in accordance with the normal procedure

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    for parcels containing dutiable articles so exported, the Customs Regulations require the exporter to affix a distinctive label which carries no indication of the contents of the parcel.
    Mr. Mathers: Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman read the evidence that I sent him on this subject in support of this Question? If it is possible to waive the use of this very conspicuous label with regard to the Red Cross when sending parcels of this kind, why is it not possible to do the same for the relatives, whose parcels could then pass safely, instead of being pilfered of their tobacco contents?
    Captain Crookshank: I received the letter from the hon. Gentleman, but, as I have pointed out in my reply, the reason for the label is due to Customs regulations, Questions about which should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Sub-Postmasters (Remuneration Concession)
    Sir H. Williamsasked the Postmaster-General the terms on which sub-postmasters are remunerated, and whether he is proposing any change in them?
    Captain Crookshank: Sub-postmasters are remunerated on a commission basis, credit being given on an agreed scale applicable throughout the country according to the amount of the various classes of Post Office business done at each office. In addition, a war bonus is paid on a scale similar to that operative in the Civil Service generally. The basic scale of pay is reviewed from time to time in consultation with the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters. Claims made by the Federation for a higher rate of credit for certain classes of work have recently been under consideration, and an agreement has just been reached under which the pay for a number of items of business will be improved with effect from 1st March, 1943.

  CLOCK, HYDE PARK CORNER (REPAIR)
  Sir William Davisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, whether he has now received the tenders for necessary repairs to the clock at Hyde Park Corner; and whether,
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  in view of the approaching summer and the importance of the clock to the large number of persons using Hyde Park, he will see that the necessary work is proceeded with as soon as possible?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): Tenders for the repair of this clock are due to-day. In regard to the second part of the Question, every effort will be made, subject to satisfactory tenders being received, to complete the repairs as soon as possible, but as I stated in my reply of 7th April, I regret that I am unable at present to promise completion by any specified date.
  Sir W. Davison: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that it is now nearly three months since he told the House that he would get tenders? Would it not be well if the firms whom the Ministry employ could be expedited a little in their movements?
  Mr. Hicks: I do not regard this matter with the same degree of urgency as certain other matters.
  Mr. Thorne: Are there not clock repairers in this House who could look after this clock?

  ROYAL NAVY

    Women Medical Officers
    Mr. Bellengerasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the medical services of female medical officers are confined to members of the Women's Royal Naval Service; and whether officers and ratings of the Royal Navy can be compelled to undergo medical examination by female medical officers?
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): As things stand at present, it would be very exceptional for women medical officers to examine personnel other than members of the Women's Royal Naval Service and the Nursing Services, but in an emergency, if a male medical officer were not available, it might be necessary for an officer or rating of the Royal Navy to undergo examination or treatment by a woman medical officer.
    Mr. Bellenger: Would it be only in a case where a male medical officer was not available?
    Mr. Alexander: I should think that would be the position. We have not a large number of women medical officers.
    Sir Francis Fremantle: Has not the First Lord appointed only one female medical officer so far?
    Mr. Stephen: Do male medical officers examine women in the W.R.N.S.?
    Mr. Alexander: Yes, Sir.
    Dr. Summerskill: They all do.
    Mr. Thorne: Why all this fuss about female medical officers? Is it not a fact that a large Turkish and vapour baths in Stockholm is managed only by women?

    Nursing Service, Bo'ness (Accommoda- tion)
    Mr. Mathersasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the injury which will be caused to the nursing service in Bo'ness by the decision to requisition the nurses' home and the failure to provide suitable alternative accommodation; whether the local nursing association were consulted before this action was taken and whether medical certificates in respect of tenants of other suitable houses were tested when doubt was cast upon them?
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Captain Pilkington): The Admiralty are aware of and regret the disturbance which the requisition of the Nurses' Home at Bo'ness will involve. The decision to requisition the home was made only after consultation with the Town Council and the County medical authorities both of whom were satisfied that alternative accommodation was available for the nurses. Careful consideration was given to the views of the Scottish Branch of the Queen's Institute of District Nursing and of my hon. Friend himself before the decision to requisition was taken. The Admiralty are satisfied that the medical certificates produced by certain occupiers of other properties also under consideration for requisitioning are genuine and that greater hardship would be caused by requisitioning any of those properties than by taking the Nurses' Home.
    Mr. Mathers: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware of the general feeling in the town that were it not for lavish and extravagant staffing of certain places occupied by naval officers this requisition,
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    which will do great harm, would not be necessary?
    Captain Pilkington: No, Sir, I am not aware of that general feeling, and I do not feel that it exists there. Certainly the staffing is not on a lavish scale.

    Youths (Volunteers)
    Sir Robert Rankinasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether his Department would welcome an increased number of volunteers of 17 and 17½ years' of age for service with the Royal Navy; and, if so, whether he will instruct that notification is sent to the secretaries of the Shipping Federation and the National Union of Seamen?
    Mr. Alexander: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir." There are now vacancies for youths between 17 and 18 for service during hostilities in various branches of the Royal Navy. I will consider the suggestion in the second part of the Question.

  MALTA (ARMED FORCES, TOBACCO)
  Mr. Burkeasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that members of the Forces in Malta have to pay 12s. 6d. duty on 8s. 4d. worth of cigarettes sent to them from this country; and whether he will take steps with a view to giving the Forces in Malta the same privileges as are generally enjoyed by members of the Forces serving abroad?
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): The duty-free entry of tobacco and cigarettes for members of His Majestys Forces in Malta was limited to 2 ozs. of tobacco or 100 cigarettes a time, as free issues of locally manufactured cigarettes are made as field service rations, and the duty on the tobacco used in their manufacture is refunded to the Services by the Government of Malta. The limit was recently increased to 4 ozs. of tobacco or 120 cigarettes in order to obtain the benefit of the United Kingdom duty drawback, which is not allowed on lesser quantities than these.

  EAST AFRICA (FOOD SUPPLY)
  Mr. R. Morganasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make a statement on the food position in East Africa; how many natives have died

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  of starvation in Tanganyika; and what steps are being taken to feed the 100,000 persons, plus our Army, who have been introduced into Kenya?
  Colonel Stanley: As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer to my reply to the hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Edmund Harvey) on 3rd March. Since that date some of the supplies from overseas which I then mentioned have been received, and the position continues to be closely watched. I regret to say that I have received a report of about 100 deaths in one Province. The feeding of the prisoners of war and refugees at present accommodated in East Africa is included in the responsibilities of the local military and civil authorities.
  Earl Winterton: Would my right hon. and gallant Friend consider, if it would be in the public interest to do so without giving away war secrets, issuing some statement in the form of a White Paper about the general food situation in the East African Colonies, which is causing great concern to those of us in this country who are familiar with conditions there?
  Colonel Stanley: I entirely agree with my Noble Friend that it is a matter of great concern, and I would like to look into this, but I am not sure that I could give a useful White Paper which would include the steps I am endeavouring to take, without infringing on security grounds.
  Mr. Sorensen: Regarding this terrible statement that 100 have actually died from starvation, was there any real need for that?
  Colonel Stanley: As I explained in my previous answer, this district, which is normally not only self-sufficient but exports foodstuffs, suffered from a sudden crop failure.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is it the fault of those who starved to death or of an official? Surely even if food is short no one need actually starve to death?
  Colonel Stanley: Every effort was made by the local Government. I am making inquiries.
  Squadron-Leader Donner: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend consider the question of Polish refugees?

  WEST INDIES

    Bahamas (Situation)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now prepared to make a public statement on the action to be recommended by the Governor of the Bahamas to meet the present situation; whether there is any intention to recommend a more equitable taxation system, an extension of the franchise, or lowering of the qualifications for elected members and the grant of expenses to members from the Out Islands so that these communities may be represented by their own people?
    Colonel Stanley: I would refer the hon. Member to the written statement on the subject which has been placed in the Library of the House. I will send the hon. Member a copy of this statement, paragraph 7 of which deals with the matter of taxation. As regards the question of the franchise, the recent Commission of Inquiry recommended that no change should be made in the present qualifications. As regards the last part of the Question, the Bahamas Legislature will no doubt be giving early consideration to the extension of the secret ballot to the Out Islands. Meanwhile, the Governor does not recommend the payment of expenses. He thinks, however, that if the secret ballot is so extended and results in a certain number of Out Island residents being returned for their own districts, assistance in the form of an allowance might then be considered.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that the point of my Question lay precisely in the desire for a public statement? Could he therefore publicise the information which has been laid in the Library?
    Colonel Stanley: The hon. Gentleman knows that we are having a Debate on the next Sitting Day which covers exactly this point. No doubt he, and certainly I, will make use of that opportunity.

    Labour Recruitment
    Sir L. Lyleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in view of the possibility of the recruitment of labour in Jamaica for work outside the West Indies how the different chief islands in the West Indies are affected by the unemployment problem; and whether, in the case of any recruitment, special consideration is given

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    to the position of British agriculturists in Trinidad where for two years crops have been seriously affected through labour shortage consequent upon the recruitment of local agricultural workers for the American bases?
    Colonel Stanley: Of the chief islands in the West Indies, Jamaica and Barbados are most affected by unemployment. I have the position of agriculturists in Trinidad very much in mind, but I do not anticipate that any labour will be recruited in Trinidad for the United States of America.
    Sir L. Lyle: Is it a fact that 10,000 natives are being recruited for America from Jamaica?
    Colonel Stanley: I am answering another Question on that point which is on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies approximately the number of workers who are being recruited from the West Indian Colonies for work in the United States of America; from which Colonies the workers are being recruited; and whether any conditions of service have been agreed to?
    Colonel Stanley: A contract was signed in March before the United States Government and the Bahamas Government for the recruitment of labour in the Bahamas for agricultural work in Florida. I have not yet received a copy of the contract, but I understand that the conditions of service prescribed are generally in line with those laid down in the International Labour Conventions. I have no information as to how many workers have so far been recruited. Negotiations are being considered with a view to concluding similar agreements for the importation of labour from Jamaica. The possibility of recruitment in other West Indian Colonies where labour is available has also been considered, but there may be transport and other difficulties.
    Mr. Riley: Does the contract provide that labour recruited from the Bahamas will receive the same remuneration and work under the same conditions as American labour on similar tasks?
    Colonel Stanley: As I said in my reply, I have not yet received a copy of the contract.
    Sir L. Lyle: Is it not rather extraordinary that we should allow these people to be sent to America, when there are other islands short of labour?
    Colonel Stanley: The hon. Gentleman will have some knowledge of the geography of the area, and he will realise that the Bahamas are very much closer to Florida than to Trinidad.

    Unemployment Insurance
    Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the attitude of the Colonial Office to the demand for an unemployment insurance scheme in Trinidad and other West Indian Colonies; and whether his Department has under consideration the recommendation of unemployment insurance schemes in the West Indian Colonies generally where local circumstances are suitable?
    Colonel Stanley: This question formed the subject of paragraph 10 (g) of the Recommendations of the West India Royal Commission (Command Paper 6174) The matter falls to be considered by Governments concerned and the Comptroller for Development and Welfare in the West Indies, in consultation. The Comptroller has been asked to report progress in this matter. I am aware that the Legislative Council of Trinidad passed a Resolution last December, calling for the appointment of a Committee to consider this question, amongst others. My attitude towards any scheme submitted to me which was limited to undertakings organised on a system of regular employment, would be entirely favourable.
    Mr. Riley: Does that mean that the Secretary of State has in view the introduction of schemes of insurance in those West Indian Colonies, where they are suitable, on a similar basis to that obtaining in this country—a tripartite basis, involving the worker, the employer and the State?
    Colonel Stanley: I am not laying down details of these schemes at the moment, but I am very much in favour of the recommendation of the Royal Commission that where there is a system of regular employment such schemes should be introduced.

  NIGERIA (MINERAL ROYALTIES)
  Mr. Turtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the total sum paid to date by the Nigerian Government to the United Africa Company as a moiety of the receipts from mineral royalties in the Northern Provinces of Nigeria?
  Colonel Stanley: I am sorry that it has not been possible in the time available to obtain all the information necessary in order to give a complete reply to this Question. I will send the information required to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
  Mr. Turton: When my right hon. and gallant Friend has got the figure will he consider whether he could not now relieve the Colonial Government of this very considerable burden?
  Colonel Stanley: That is another and much wider question. My hon. Friend will realise that the Colony now has the advantage of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act.

  GOLD COAST (GIN IMPORTS)
  Mr. Barrasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give the amount of geneva or gin imported into the Gold Coast during 1942, or the most recent estimate of imports for that year; and whether the Government of the Gold Coast have yet fixed the quota of permitted gallons of geneva or gin that may be imported during 1943?
  Colonel Stanley: The answer to the first part of the Question is 31,209 gallons. I have not yet been informed of the quota fixed by the Gold Coast Government for 1943.
  Mr. Barr: Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman explain why it is, in view of the Comparatively small amount of consumption and imports, the quota is still being kept at so high a figure? What is the principle? Is it to keep an open door for the time after the war for the incoming of liquor?
  Colonel Stanley: I do not yet know what the quota fixed for the coming year is. I have noticed that in the past two years the amount imported has been very far below the quota fixed.
  Viscountess Astor: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman think that gin for the natives conduces to their moral, spiritual or physical welfare, and is he going to be responsible?
  Colonel Stanley: I would not like to enter into controversy on this subject with the Noble Lady, but I myself occasionally indulge in gin without any danger to either my moral, spiritual or physical welfare.
  Viscountess Astor: I question that.
  Mr. Shinwell: We want more ginger on the Front bench.
  Colonel Stanley: Well, gin is half way to it.

  SIERRA LEONE (CONSCRIPT LABOUR, WAGES)
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the shipping companies and dock operating firms of Sierra Leone, having been granted conscript labour for the more efficient working of the port, have refused to pay the increased wages recommended by the Labour Advisory Board some months ago; and whether, as the opportunity for redress of grievances by these workers is limited, he will take steps to ensure the enforcement of such and subsequent recommendations?
  Colonel Stanley: Conscript labour in Freetown is enrolled in military units, is controlled by the military authorities in Sierra Leone, and is paid at military rates of pay. I have no information as to a refusal by the shipping companies and dock operating companies to pay increased wages to civilian labour and am consulting the Governor. With regard to the last part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers given to his Questions on 6th April.
  Mr. Adams: In view of the fact that these workers are conscript labour now, surely the recommendations of the Labour Advisory Board ought to have more weight with the Government than they, have? The recommendations are really ignored.
  Colonel Stanley: As I told the hon. Member on the last occasion, I am finding out from the Governor.

  WEST AFRICAN DEPENDENCIES (CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT)
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has under consideration the reform of constitutional government in our West African Colonies so as to provide for increased facilties for self-government; the democratisation of the native forms of government in the more backward regions; and the increased participation of qualified natives both as representatives in the Colonial Legislative Assemblies and in the administrative posts?
  Colonel Stanley: The question of progressive constitutional development in the West African Dependencies continues to engage the attention of His Majesty's Government in consultation with the Governors of those Dependencies. The importance of developing the representative character of Native Administrations and of the municipal and central legislative bodies is not overlooked. Further plans are being made, which, it is hoped, will ensure the filling by African officers of a steadily-increasing number of posts in the Government Service hitherto normally held by Europeans.
  Mr. Riley: Is the Secretary of State fully seized of the strong feeling in the coastal areas of the West African Colonies as to the need for an extension of local self-government?
  Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir, I am; and it is the desire of His Majesty's Government to extend local self-government where practicable. The hon. Gentleman will be well aware of the differences between the coastal areas and the interior.
  Mr. Sorensen: Have conferences taken place not only with the Governors, but with representative Africans on this matter?
  Colonel Stanley: The Governors consult representative Africans.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is there likely to be a report on the reforms which are made?
  Colonel Stanley: No, there is no report, but as changes are made they are announced. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt have seen the announcement of the reforms that have been made already.

  KENYA (DETAINEES)
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the officers and committee of the three African societies in Kenya are still detained; whether any of the men concerned have been released; what are the conditions of their detention; whether detention is subject to periodic review; and whether the conditions of their detention are similar to those of Prince Paul of Yugoslavia?
  Coloney Stanley: The 23 members of the Joint Council of the Kikuyu Central Association, the Ukamba Members' Association and the Teita Hills Association who were detained in 1940 under the Kenya Defence Regulations are still under detention, with the exception of three men who have been released subject to certain conditions considered necessary by the Security authorities. The detainees are accommodated in a camp at Kapenguria. The Detention Orders have been reviewed periodically, and in the three cases mentioned above have been suspended. The answer to the last part of the Question is in the negative. It will be understood that this case does not fall under the Kenya Defence Regulations.
  Mr. John Dugdale: Would these men be detained for similar offences in this country?
  Viscountess Astor: Have all these Members who are asking questions about the Colonies ever been in the Colonies? If not, it is positively dangerous to ask such Questions.

  MAURITIUS (CONSTITUTION)
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether consideration is being given to a new Constitution for Mauritius; and whether, meantime, a more representative Executive Council can be set up, to include representatives of the unfranchised peoples and classes, including working people?
  Colonel Stanley: I am informing myself as fully as possible about the political situation in Mauritius, but in present conditions there is nothing I can add to the reply given to the hon. Member's Question on this subject on 29th April last year.
  Mr. Creech Jones: In view of the long delay in bringing in constitutional reform

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  in Mauritius and the strong local feeling, and the social and economic difficulties, will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider, as an interim arrangement during the war, a wider representation, particularly of workers, on the Executive Council of the Colony?
  Colonel Stanley: As I said in my answer, I am looking into the matter; but the hon. Gentleman must realise that Mauritius is still very close to the front line.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA (COPPER MINES, AFRICAN WORKERS)
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any recent steps have been taken in Northern Rhodesia to introduce Africans into supervisory or more skilled work in the copper mines; and what is the policy of the Government in this matter and in the problem of stabilisation and family settlement about the mines?
  Colonel Stanley: The Copperbelt Disturbances Commission in 1940 recommended that the mine managements should consider, with representatives of the Government and of the Mine Workers' Union, to what positions not now open to him the African worker should be encouraged to advance. It has not been possible, particularly under war conditions, to give effect to this recommendation. The problem of stabilisation, which would involve the provision of new housing accommodation, schools and other amenities, is not capable of immediate solution. As the hon. Member was informed on nth February last year, every encouragement is given to workers to bring their wives with them to the mines for the period of their employment.
  Mr. Maxton: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman think it would help the negotiations out there if the leaders of the union were let out of prison?
  Colonel Stanley: No, Sir; I do not think it would.

  PRIVATE MOTOR CARS, LONDON
  Sir W. Brassasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport the total number of private
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  motor cars licensed within the London County Council area in the last quarter of 1942, September to December, as compared with the same quarter of 1938?
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): The number of licences for private motor cars issued by the London County Council which were still valid in the last quarter of 1942, was 36,514. In the last quarter of 1938, the number was 148,503.
  Sir W. Brass: In view of the large drop in numbers, would my hon. Friend convey this answer to the Home Secretary, so that he does not waste the time of the police in this area?

  COMMONWEALTH WAR COUNCIL
  Mr. Granvilleasked the Prime Minister whether he will call together a Commonwealth War Council upon the lines of the Imperial War Council, which met during the last war?
  The Deputy-Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I am not in a position at present to add anything to previous answers given on this subject.
  Mr. Granville: Will an opportunity be taken during the visit of Dr. Evatt and other Dominion statesmen to discuss post-war questions, such as Colonial development and civil aviation?

  WAR WORK (NORTHERN IRELAND)
  Dr. Littleasked the Minister of Production how many Eire nationals are employed in Northern Ireland by the Admiralty, the Ministries of War, Air and Aircraft Production, respectively; and how many workers from Northern Ireland have been transferred to Great Britain for war work?
  The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): As regards the first part of the Question, I regret that the information is not available. In reply to the second part, the latest information available is that given by the Northern Ireland Minister of Labour, in reply to a Question in the Northern Ireland Parliament on 25th March, 1943. It was stated then that since 12th February, 1940, the

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  first date from which a separate count was made, 38,807 vacancies in Great Britain were filled by workers from Northern Ireland.
  Dr. Little: Does not my right hon. Friend recognise that, in view of the state of unemployment in Northern Ireland at the present moment, a clear and unequivocal answer to the first part of the Question should be given, and that it is really demanded by the Ulster people?
  Mr. Logan: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that Questions like this are likely to bring about a better working arrangement in Ireland? In regard to Northern Ireland, what were the ages of those who came over? Were they fit for military service or not? May I have an answer?
  Mr. Lyttelton: That is not part of the original Question.
  Mr. Logan: Yes, it is. Surely the right hon. Gentleman knows how many workers there are, and their ages?
  Dr. Littleasked the Minister of Production whether, as Northern Ireland could do much more war work through skilful planning and judicious placing of factories, he will appoint a representative of his Ministry to take a survey of the potentialities of Northern Ireland for war work, and have enough factories erected as speedily as possible to give work to every employable person in Northern Ireland?
  Mr. Lyttelton: With the approval of the Minister of Commerce and Production in Northern Ireland, the Secretary of his Department acts as my Regional Controller. He also acts as the Regional Controller of my right hon. friends the Ministers of Supply and of Aircraft Production and maintains close touch with the Regional Controller of my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty. My colleagues and I are kept fully informed of the potentialities of Northern Ireland for war work. The arrangement I have described makes for a very high degree of co-ordination, and I do not think that a special survey would serve any useful purpose. It is, of course, our aim to make the fullest possible use of the labour in Northern Ireland, but the provision of new factories in Northern Ireland and elsewhere must be governed by the needs of the war programme as a whole.
  Mr. John Beattie: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government of Northern Ireland have failed in their responsibility to the people, and——
  Mr. Speaker——

  JOINT PRODUCTION COMMITTEES
  Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Production the present position with regard to joint production committees; whether they have been set up generally throughout industry; to what extent delay and obstruction is being experienced; and whether he will issue a general report on the results achieved?
  Mr. Lyttelton: Of firms in the engineering and allied industries, 3,350 are, according to the latest available information, known to have set up joint production committees. This is an increase of 706 in the last three months. In addition, committees are known to be in process of establishment at 170 firms. I am not aware of any serious opposition to the setting up of committees. In the nature of the case these committees are primarily concerned with the domestic affairs of individual establishments, and it would not be practicable to summarise the results achieved. It is not, therefore, my intention to issue a general report of this character, I am, however, satisfied that, generally speaking, they are performing very useful work.
  Mr. Mander: Has my right hon. Friend seen the very interesting and detailed report recently issued by the Amalgamated Engineering Union, and could he not convey the information from reports of this kind in a general report to the House?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I am taking up the individual cases which are referred to in the report.
  Mr. Granville: Would the Minister consider that there is still a certain amount of misunderstanding about these production committees, and would his Department consider issuing some sort of advice or pamphlet on the matter?
  Mr. Lyttelton: We have done our best in the matter. Misunderstanding exists over a great many subjects.
  Mr. Higgs: Can my right hon. Friend inform the House how many firms that were under an obligation to organise these committees have failed to do so?

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Creameries (Post-War Reinstatement)
    Sir W. Brassasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the general disquiet which exists among members of the cheese-making industry in Lancashire as to their prospects after the war, he will see that the Milk Marketing Board gives an undertaking to creameries about to be classed as redundant that they will be reinstated as purchasers of milk by wholesale at the termination of the present emergency and be allowed all such terms for manufacture of milk products as may then be applicable to the dairy industry as a whole?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): My Noble Friend is unable to give definite undertakings of the kind suggested regarding the post-war period. He has, however, promised, as the hon. and gallant Member is aware, that so far as he may be in a position to exercise influence the claims to reinstatement of creameries now declared redundant will be seriously considered.
    Sir W. Brass: Why is it not possible for the Minister to give this undertaking, because the Milk Marketing Board is a permanent organisation, while his Department is not; and is it not a fact that the Milk Marketing Board is a competitor and it is very unfair to leave these people in the air as the Government are doing?
    Mr. Mabane: As I indicated, it is not possible to pledge any future Government. The manner in which the concentrated firms will resume their activities after the war will depend on general Government policy at that time.
    Sir W. Brass: Does the Minister realise that the Milk Marketing Board is a competitor of these people and will be in a position to go on after the war while these cheesemakers will not be in a position to do so?

    Milk Prices (Costings Investigation)
    Major Yorkasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has any statement to make on the results of his costings investigation into the milk price structure?
    Mr. Mabane: As the answer is long and contains many figures, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Major York: Is the Minister aware that the figures given in the Press as to the alteration in the price structure make it clear that the small producer-retailer is a much more economic proposition than the large retailer, and will he bear that fact in mind in certain rural areas?
    Mr. Mabane: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman had better read the long answer.
    Following is the answer:
    The costings investigation to which the hon. Member refers is a continuous one, the margins for milk distribution being reviewed every six months in the light of the findings of the investigation during the preceding period.
    The costings investigation undertaken during the winter of 1942–43 shows that the costs of certain distributive functions in England and Wales have fallen as compared with the figures established by the costings investigation held during 1941–42.
    The margins which have had effect since the 1st April, 1943, have been as follows. Comparisons with the margins which were fixed on the 1st October, 1942, are given.
    Depot Allowance—
    An average of 1¼d. per gallon, varying with throughput (No change).
    Wholesale Margin—
    2d. per gallon (No change).
    Self-wholesaling Margin—
    On a daily turnover of 750–999 gallons ½d. (instead of ¾d.) per gallon.
    On a daily turnover of 1,000–1,249 gallons ¾d. (instead of 1d.) per gallon.
    On a daily turnover of 1,250–1,499 gallons 1d. (instead of 1¼d.) per gallon.
    On a daily turnover of 1,500 gallons and over 1¼d. (instead of 1¼d.) per gallon.
    The self-wholesaling margin is allowed to those organisations which carry out a wholesale service to their own retail branches.
    Retail Margin—
    London 10½d. per gallon (instead of 11d. per gallon).
    Provincial areas 9⅝d. per gallon (instead of 10⅓d. per gallon).
    The reductions which have been made in the self-wholesaling margin and the retail margin represent a saving at the rate of £2,250,000 a year.
    The costings investigation conducted during the winter of 1942–43 shows that the total costs of operation of the firms combining a wholesale and a retail function is approximately

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    1d. per gallon higher than the cost of operation of a firm carrying out a retail service only. On this basis the self-wholesaling allowance has been reduced by ¼d. per gallon and now varies from ½d. to 1¼d. per gallon (according to turnover) instead of ¾d., to 1½d. per gallon. The reduction in total margins experienced by a firm combining a wholesale and retail function is thus ¾d. per gallon as compared with a reduction of ½d. per gallon in the case of a small firm carrying out a retail service only. Where a retailer obtains his milk from an independent wholesaler that wholesaler receives 2d. per gallon for carrying out the wholesale service. Thus the remuneration allowed for distribution by a separate wholesaler and a separate retailer is greater than is the remuneration allowed to a single organisation combining in itself the two functions.

    Fish Zoning Scheme
    Mr. Evelyn Walkdenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered the need for greater flexibility in the fish-zoning scheme; and why the West Riding of Yorkshire was, during the past two weeks, allowed to go short of fish when some other zones appeared to get more fish than they could sell or consume?
    Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir, this matter has been carefully considered in consultation with the Joint Council of the Industry, and new arrangements for the summer months were announced on 30th March and will come into force on 17th April. In reply to the second part of my hon. Friend's Question, I would refer to my answer to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) yesterday.
    Mr. Walkden: Does my hon. Friend dispute, what is obvious in the shop windows of the fishmongers' shops, that in some areas there is actually a surplus of fish and in other areas a complete shortage, and will he answer that important question?
    Mr. Mabane: Certainly, Sir. I cannot agree that there is in any of the zones a surplus of fish over the requirements of the general consuming public.
    Mr. Holdsworth: If there is any surplus will the Minister see that it arrives in Bradford, because we have no fish at all?
    Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward: Is it not true that some of the new arrangements to which he has referred have been postponed to the end of June?
    Mr. Mabane: No, Sir.
    Sir A. Lambert Wardasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the serious situation which has arisen in Hull owing to the threatened breakdown of the fish zoning scheme; and what steps he proposes to take as this may cause complete dislocation of distribution?
    Mr. Mabane: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given yesterday to the Question on this matter by the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne).
    Sir A. Lambert Ward: Is the Minister aware that since the fish zoning scheme was introduced by his Department the fish merchants in Hull have either been unable to obtain any supplies of fish or else to dispose of such as they have succeeded in getting?
    Mr. Mabane: No, Sir; I cannot agree to that.
    Major Lyons: Is it a fact that since the scheme was introduced there has been a complete shortage of fish all over the country?

    Catering Establishments (Control of Supplies)
    Mr. E. Walkdenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the many cases of falsified returns whereby evidence has shown that numerous hotel and canteen caterers have secured excessive supplies of rationed food, and to ensure more adequate protection of the nation's food supplies, he has taken steps to make drastic changes in the administrative system?
    Mr. Mabane: My Noble Friend is fully seized of the importance of this matter, and therefore keeps the system of control of supplies of food to catering establishments under continuous review. Changes are now being introduced especially designed to improve the methods used for checking the accuracy of the returns rendered to Food Offices by catering establishments of all kinds.
    Mr. Walkden: While I thank my hon. Friend for his reply, does he ever have consultations with the local food officers as to methods or suggestions which they themselves would like to make, as consultation with the local officials on this important issue is very vital?
    Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir. It is the habit of my Noble Friend and myself to visit the various food divisions with that particular object in mind, and I am to be in Bristol on Friday for that very purpose.

    Fruit Juices, Basingstoke
    Squadron-Leader Donnerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to the irregular and inadequate supplies of fruit juices for children under five in Basingstoke; and whether he will take measures to improve a situation which is causing comment locally?
    Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir. Steps have been taken to meet the difficulties referred to, and I am assured that the position is now satisfactory.
    Squadron-Leader Donner: Will the Minister consider sending additional supplies if I send him letters I have received from parents in Basingstoke complaining that supplies are unsatisfactory?
    Mr. Mabane: No, Sir. We sent supplies sufficient to meet immediate requirements some time ago, and some more were sent yesterday.
    Squadron-Leader Donner: Is the Minister aware that I received letters on the subject only yesterday?

    Aged People (Rations)
    Sir Frank Sandersonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will consider the granting of extra rations of tea and sugar to people of 70 years of age and over who are living alone, in view of the fact that these foods form an important part in the diet of such folk?
    Mr. Mabane: My hon. Friend's suggestion has been frequently considered, but my Noble Friend regrets that he would not be justified in departing from his general policy of fixing the domestic ration at the highest possible level for all consumers.
    Sir F. Sanderson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of these elderly single folk live in one bedroom and sitting room, where there are no facilities for cooking food; and in view of this fact, that they do not use all their ordinary food coupons, and that a cup of tea is a necessity for these old folk, will he reconsider his decision?
    Mr. Mabane: I can assure my hon. Friend that my Noble Friend has considered this matter most sympathetically, and if my hon. Friend considers the position, he will see the tremendous difficulties of introducing such a variation as he suggests here.
    Mr. Maxton: If canteens, restaurants and cafés can be open for the sale of cups of tea, surely something can be done for this huge mass of the population?
    Mr. Mabane: They are not excluded from British Restaurants.
    Viscountess Astor: Will the Minister bear in mind that many of these people simply cannot get to British Restaurants? I can assure him they are suffering real hardship.

    Hotels and Restaurants (Drinking Water)
    Miss Rathboneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that American Service men and others in this country, accustomed to the plentiful use of iced water with their meals, often find water so difficult to obtain at hotels and restaurants that they are compelled to order alcoholic drinks or minerals; and whether he will discourage this consumption of drinks involving the use of labour and imported materials by requiring hotels and restaurants to supply water in an easily accessible form at all meals?
    Mr. Mabane: I would refer the hon. Lady to the reply to a similar Question on 19th January.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that since he gave his astounding answer to my previous Question, denying that any difficulty exists, scores of people, especially those in touch with Americans, have poured in on me the information that there is serious difficulty? If the hon. Gentleman wants to test it, will he go into an hotel and see how long it takes to get a glass of water?
    Mr. Mabane: I cannot accept the hon. Lady's interpretation of my previous reply, which was:
    "My Noble Friend sees no occasion for the making of an order such as my hon. Friend suggests."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th January, 1943; col. 57, Vol. 386.]
    I can say, however, regarding this question, that we have had no complaints from

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    American Forces in this country that they are unable to get all the water they want and that following the new proposals of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer water may now become more generally available.
    Sir L. Lyle: Is it not a fact that there is a shortage of alcoholic drinks as well as iced water?
    Viscountess Astor: Would the hon. Gentleman ask some Americans about this? They are not complaining, but I can assure him that there is real hardship. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will look into the matter?
    Mr. Gallacher: Would the hon. Gentleman consider the statement made by his Noble Friend that there is an increase of water in beer? Why not accelerate this process until beer is water?

    Cabbages (Sale, Devon)
    Major Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, relative to a crop of 95 acres of flatpole cabbage in Devonshire, whether he will now identify the third party to whom sale is alleged to have been effected; and whether, in view of recent statements of Messrs. Cook, Sidebottom, Bowden and Tugsley as to 64 acres and Mr. Smaldon as to 31 acres, that no such sale ever took place, he will make a further statement and fresh inquiry?
    Mr. Mabane: No recent statements by Messrs. Smaldon, Cook, Sidebottom, Bowden and Tugsley have been brought to my notice, and in any case it would not appear that the nature of any arrangements between these growers and a third party is a matter in which my Department has any jurisdiction.
    Major Lyons: In view of the fact that I have a signed statement from these gentlemen saying that the information that the hon. Gentleman gave to the House last week is quite inaccurate, will he now review the matter in the light of this statement?
    Mr. Mabane: No, Sir. I do not think my statement of last week was inaccurate.
    Major Lyons: But in view of the fact that I have a signed statement from these gentlemen, showing that the hon. Gentle-
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    man's information was inaccurate, will he look into it again and see what the facts really are?
    Mr. Mabane: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will let me see the signed statement.
    Mr. E. Walkden: Is it not true that the mild winter has largely accounted for the argument that has cropped up week by week regarding cabbages?

  BARROW HEMATITE STEEL COMPANY
  Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Supply why the Government did not take over the limestone quarries and blast furnaces at the same time as the steel works of the Barrow Hematite Steel Company?
  The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): The purchase was limited to what was required to secure certain necessary improvements, as explained in the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Bournemouth (Sir L. Lyle) on 31st March.

  MESSRS. DAVID BROWN AND SONS (CONSTITUTION OF BOARD)
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Supply why he decided to strengthen the board of David Brown and Sons; why his representative directors resigned; who are the directors now; and is he satisfied that this firm is being managed in such a way as will enable the workpeople's work to be utilised to the best advantage in the national interest?
  Sir A. Duncan: Last summer four out of the five directors of David Brown and Sons (Huddersfield) Limited resigned from the Board although they remained as senior executive officers employed full time by the Company. There was at the same time threatened litigation in regard to the affairs of the Company. My right hon. Friend who was then Minister of Aircraft Production and I felt it necessary, in order to safeguard the position, to make suggestions to the Company as to the constitution of the Board. Those suggestions were adopted. More recently the principal litigants came to terms, but the directors suggested by my right hon. Friend and myself did not feel in a position to submit those terms to the share-

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  holders of the Company and accordingly resigned. The present Board—consisting of Sir Ernest Roney, Mr. Killingbeck and Mr. David Brown—is a temporary one in order to deal with the proposed settlement. In the meantime my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production had undertaken an investigation into the general position of the Company, and he is now in negotiation with the Company as to its future management.
  Mr. Smith: Is the Minister satisfied that production has not been affected, in view of the importance of output?
  Sir A. Duncan: I am satisfied that production has not been seriously affected, but in any case that is one of the points into which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production is inquiring.

  VOTE OF CREDIT (APPROPRIATION ACCOUNT) 1941
  Appropriation Account presented of the Sums granted by Parliament for general Navy, Army and Air Services, and for the Ministry of Supply in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament, for securing the public safety, the defence of the realm, the maintenance of public order and the efficient prosecution of the war, for maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the community and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the ordinary grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war, for the year ended 31st March, 1942, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 76.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have agreed to Amendment to—
Liverpool Hydraulic Power Bill, without Amendment.

RAILWAY FREIGHT REBATES BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 25.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee. [Progress, 13 th April.]
  [Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair.]

AMENDMENT OF LAW.
Question again proposed,
"That it is expedient to amend the law-relating to the National Debt and Public Revenue, and to make further provision in connection with Finance."—[Sir K. Wood.]
The Postmaster-General (Captain Crookshank): It is very strange that for the first time in many years it has been necessary for a Minister not connected with the Treasury to intervene in a Budget discussion and that it should be my fate to be that Minister to-day. I promise the Committee I shall not be very long, because obviously hon. Members do not want to be disturbed from the general stream of our financial discussion, but

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as my right hon. Friend stated in his Budget speech that certain postal changes were proposed, I thought it most convenient to hon. Members if I made a statement now rather than published a White Paper or replied to a Private Notice Question—both of which methods have not the popularity that they used to have.
I start by saying that it is with very great regret, of course, that the Postmaster-General has to announce any alterations for the worse in the services which the Post Office renders to the public. Naturally, to do that is quite contrary to the policy, which has been so long adopted by my predecessors in office, of extending the services and finding ways and means for helping the public in the postal, telephonic or telegraphic line. My right hon. Friend, pointing out the reason for these alterations, said:
"The Government have reviewed the matter of man-power as it affects the Post Office and consider it is desirable that a further contribution should be made by that Department. These increases in charges,"—
that is to say, the increases which are described in the White Paper—
"therefore, are proposed, not in the interests of the revenue, on which the effect is small, but to economise man-power by discouraging unnecessary use of the services in question."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943, cols. 962–3, Vol. 388.]
It follows that any change in the services must have some reaction on the revenue, and it is for that reason that I now intervene in the Debate. First of all, then, I would say that the Post Office has already made a very large contribution to the war effort both by releasing men directly into the Services and secondarily in the form of work connected with the Defence services of this country. May I take the three branches and sets of changes which His Majesty's Government are proposing to make, first of all, in the postal services? This does not appear in the White Paper, and it is, therefore, the first time an announcement has been made. It is to this effect, that as soon as may be in the London area, where there are at present four deliveries, there will, in future, be only three. That applies to some 55 per cent. of the correspondence of London and deals with letters passing through what are called the head district areas of Central London. It may be convenient if I say that they are the E.C.I,
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2, 3 and 4, W.C.1 and 2, W.1 and 2, E.1, N.1, N.W.1, S.E.1 and S.W.1 districts. This may be of some inconvenience to some members of the public, of course, but the delivery which it is proposed to abolish is the mid-day one. As for the provinces, where at present there are three deliveries being made, there will be only two in future. There are only two cities at present which have an unrestricted third delivery; they are Liverpool and Glasgow. Birmingham has a nearly complete third delivery. Those cities, therefore, will have only two deliveries in future. There again the delivery which it is proposed to abolish is the middle one. What effect this may have on the revenue cannot be precisely calculated; presumably it ought not to have very much, except as a result of the reduced man-power in the matter of salaries, wages, and so on. It is estimated that the actual release of man-power and woman-power by these and other changes will be 5,000 full-time women and 2,000 full-time men, which is quite an appreciable contribution to be able to make at this stage of the war.
Two other changes of not anything like the same importance are proposed in the postal service. One is the abolition of the business reply service. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will know that this consists of envelopes and postcards which they generally get with charitable appeals and as a result of which they are supposed to send cheques and postal orders, and they do not have to put stamps on the envelopes, as the recipient pays. This service is carried out under licence. There were something like 40,000 licence holders before the war, but now the numbers has been decreased by something like 60 to 80 per cent. It is one of the luxuries we must unfortunately do without. The same thing applies to a service known as the postal forward parcel service. Probably this is better known to hon. Ladies than it is to hon. Gentlemen, because it is principally used for forwarding parcels to dyers and cleaners. I dare say that very few hon. Members have ever heard of it, and its discontinuance will not cause any great reaction.
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is not referring to the C.O.D. service?
Captain Cookshank: No. This is a very small service by which you send your dirty clothes to cleaners, and they pay the postage, and so on. I pass now to the telegraph changes. The new charges are given in the Financial Statement, but they cannot come into effect until the House passes the necessary legislation. The Government hope this may be done so that we may bring the changes into effect in the early Summer. Here the important change is the change of rate. The minimum charge for a telegram will rise from 9d. for nine words to 1s. for nine words. The last time a shilling was necessary for a telegram was when the rate was 1s. for 12 words, which existed up till 1935. The telegraph service has enormously increased during the war. I consider that a 20 per cent. increase in this particular service is an enormous increase. The figure has risen from just under 60,000,000 telegrams a year to over 70,000,000.
Sir Percy Harris: Is not this largely the result of Service telegrams?
Captain Crookshank: That may be so. It remains a statistical fact that there is a 20 per cent. increase. Whether the traffic will be able to stand the increase in charges without diminishing, I do not know. The White Paper gives an estimate of what we think the improved income from the telephone and telegraph changes will be. Whether that estimate will be reached we cannot tell.
Mr. Benson: Does the increase in the traffic wipe out the loss?
Captain Crookshank: I cannot say offhand. We also propose to abolish the greetings telegram service. This is a service which, I think, hon. Gentlemen will be sorry to see go, because it has been very popular, but here again we are dealing with man-power questions, and in this field as in every other we have to cut down what may be considered luxuries. This service has more than doubled since the war. The figure of 4,000,000 per annum before the war has now increased to over 8,500,000.
Earl Winterton: A point of some importance was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson). We have been given to understand by
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some of my right hon. and gallant Friend's predecessors that the telegraph service was a dying service. Is it not true that the main reason for the increase has been Service telegrams of various kinds? Could my right hon. and gallant Friend tell us at a future date whether that is so?
Captain Crookshank: Of course, I could give the information if I had notice of the question. I do not know offhand. Does by Noble Friend refer to telegrams from private soldiers to their relatives or from parents to private soldiers? Or does he mean the general service between the War Office and the Commands?
Sir P. Harris: Everybody knows that Service men going on leave send tens of thousands of telegrams to their relatives, and there are also the casualty telegrams. Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman bear in mind the convenience of Service men going on leave? There are hundreds of thousands of telegrams from them.
Captain Crookshank: Of course, there are. There has been a 20 per cent. increase since the war. I am not sure that an analysis can be made in that form, but if it can be, it will be at the disposal of any hon. Member who likes to ask about it. As I have said, it is proposed to suspend the greetings telegrams for the rest of the war. It is also proposed to abolish a service which is not very much used—the night telegraph letter service. Before the war this involved a traffic of 650 a night, though in fact it has doubled itself to something like 1,300 a night now.
Mr. de Rothschild: Is it proposed to abolish the night telegraph service to foreign countries and the Dominions?
Captain Crookshank: If the hon. Gentleman is referring to night cable letters, this has nothing to do with that. This is an internal service by which one telephones a telegraph letter or hands it in late at night at a post office and it is delivered the next morning as a letter. I think the hon. Gentleman was referring to the different rates at which cables are sent overseas, such as night letters, half-rate letters, and so on. It has nothing to do with that.
Mr. McEntee: With regard to the abolition of night telegrams, will this prevent telegrams from

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being sent at night in cases of accidents? These telegrams may be of extreme importance and even a matter of life and death.
Captain Crookshank: The hon. Gentleman is referring to telegrams. This is a night telegraph letter, which is a different thing. I am sorry we have to go into these small detailed points which refer to things with rather technical names. Unless one knows exactly what one is dealing with, one gets into confusion.
May I now take the third point, which relates to trunk telephone charges. Here again the White Paper has explained the figures. There has been an enormous increase in telephone trunk calls during the war. In daytime they have gone up 80 per cent. compared with the pre-war figure, and the night calls have gone up 35 per cent. The actual figures represented by these percentages may interest the Committee. Before the war the number of trunk calls per week was 528,000, and now the figure is 952,000 per week. These are tremendous figures [HON. MEMBERS: "The soldiers."]—It is not all due to the soldiers, because, in point of fact, 80 per cent. of the calls are what are technically known as non-private calls, that is, business and Government calls. The whole of the private telephoning covers only something like 20 per cent. The charges are going up as indicated in the White Paper, and the new charges which are proposed will come into effect on 1st May. As the figures are already in the hands of hon. Members, I do not think it necessary to go through them all, but generally speaking they represent a 50 per cent. addition to the pre-war charges, and the maximum rate is brought up, roughly, to what the maximum rate was in 1936, taking it by and large. At the same time we shall have to undertake, I hope with success, a campaign to induce the sparing use of the long-distance services. Already, as hon. Gentlemen know, there has been a drive to reduce the length of conversations because of the heavy load on the trunk lines.
The effect, on the financial side, of these changes in regard to the telephone and telegraph services is put at about £1,500,000 this year and at about £2,500,000 next year. Of course, as my right hon. Friend said, the object is not to try to affect revenue but to save man-
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power, and the more successful it is in saving man-power, the less advantage there will be to the revenue. On the other hand, the greater the revenue we get, the less we shall save in man-power. In this particular case and in this particular year and month of the war, our object is to save man-power, and therefore we hope that the new charges will act as a deterrent rather than otherwise. I repeat that it is with great reluctance that we have had to cut down these services. I hope that when hon. and right hon. Gentlemen are inconvenienced as a result of these changes they will bear in mind that it is some little contribution which they and their constituents are making towards the war effort. When they receive complaints from their constituents, as they well may, perhaps they will be good enough to remember the reason why these changes have been made and try to persuade their constituents that it is all being done in order to hasten the end of the war, by taking from the postal services, as we have had to take from so many other businesses, trades, and industries, the greatest possible number of men and women to help the war effort.
Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Is the Post Office taking any steps to endeavour to induce Government Departments not to flood the post with unnecessary correspondence?
Sir Alfred Beit: The Postmaster-General did not say anything about the saving to Government Departments which I understand is to be effected by an arrangement under which they will no longer have to pay for their telephone calls and as a result of which the surplus from the Post Office largely disappears from the national accounts.
Captain Crookshank: I was not dealing with the general discussion on the Budget Statement. It is true, as pointed out on page 12 of the White Paper, that there has been an alteration in accounting procedure as regards inter-departmental payments. That, again, has been done really in order to save man-power in connection with the preparation and settlement of these accounts. I am afraid that the picture with regard to the general surplus is somewhat different nowadays, because so much money is being taken from the Vote of Credit to finance certain of the Post Office services. If the Committee want me, on a

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more appropriate occasion, to go into that matter in detail, I shall be glad to do so, but actually the change in the accounting is being done to save man-power.
Mr. Denman: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give us an estimate of the saving of man-power effected on telephones and telegrams? He gave it for the postal service but not for the others, and such a figure would be helpful to us.
Captain Crookshank: I did give a figure for the saving effected by the reduction of the hours for the cheap telephone calls at night, but I am afraid it is not possible to make any guess at the result, right through, of the increase in the rates.
Mr. Higgs: I should like to congratulate the Chancellor upon his successful Budget. As far as I can see, the right hon. Gentleman has received more compliments and fewer kicks than any other Chancellor who has presented a Budget since I have had the honour of sitting in this House. The Chancellor has but little power to enforce economy on the nation. He has to find the money that the various Services and Departments require. It is a fact that taxation restricts inflation, and if we got serious inflation, we would be likely to lose this war, and a defeat would be the greatest calamity that could overcome this country. The Chancellor is well aware of that fact, and the country realises it.
I would like to ask the Chancellor a question with regard to Surtax on private limited companies. Reading between the lines of his Budget speech, one realises that the Chancellor is well aware of the importance of financing industry after the war. Re-organisation will be of paramount importance, and it cannot be done without a certain amount of capital. Private limited companies are subject to Surtax under certain conditions, and those conditions are that, if a sufficient percentage of the profits has not, in the opinion of the Commissioners, been distributed to the shareholders, then the whole of the profits for that particular financial year can be subjected to Surtax. The possible reply is that no private limited companies have been assessed for Surtax in the past, but that does not affect my point. The fear is that these companies will be assessed for Surtax. Under normal conditions, when
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this provision became law I think there was every reason why it should have been made, but in those days the industry concerned could spend its profit on expansion. There were opportunities for doing so, and there were no restrictions. It was a just tax.
But now we are not in a position to buy additional plant, to put up additional buildings or even to carry out necessary repairs. We have to get permission to do this work. Certain firms, in consequence, are accumulating cash credits, and, as the law stands, because that money is in cash and is not being distributed, the Commissioners can assess those profits to Surtax. The result is that a business, in order to retain £6,000 or £7,000 in cash reserves, has to make a profit of something like £100,000. In my opinion there is no more arbitrary method of applying taxation than in this case. The decision is left entirely to file assessors and applies only to private limited companies. It does not apply to public companies, because the natural process in such cases is to distribute the profits, and those who receive them are assessed to Income Tax and Surtax. The private limited company is working under this disadvantage, that it may be accumulating its money assets to-day for the time when it has to change back to normal production, and the risk is that those assets will be taken from it. I hope the Chancellor will look into the matter and give it his favourable consideration and make a definite ruling, and not leave it in this arbitrary manner to the decision of the Commissioners. It is the most unsatisfactory tax that that particular section of industry has to contend with.
I compliment the Chancellor upon the items on which he has seen fit to collect additional taxation, but there are two or three others that I would bring to his notice. I think he already has power to assess medium-sized incomes, of the order of £2,000 down to £1,000 for Surtax. I am rather surprised that he did not take advantage of the power vested in him. Another matter which has been brought up on several occasions is displayed advertisements on hoardings and in the Press. We realise that he must have this additional revenue, and I do not see why that source cannot be taxed. Antiques also should come under his notice. He referred to the cost-of-living figures. The

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cost of living has been kept down to something of the order of 30 per cent. above pre-war, but his statement was rather confusing. I think the method of compiling these figures was originated in 1921 and somewhat modified in 1931. When the Chancellor refers to the cost of living, he should certainly take into account the limitation of quantities. In the cost-of-living figures are included sugar, meat, butter and so forth, the supplies of which are limited. It has altered the family budget considerably, and I doubt whether the figure of 30 per cent. is a real reflection of the cost of living. I doubt the wisdom of subsidising food prices at all—ultimately they have to reach their normal level—and whether the right thing to do, in order to ease the burden on such people as old age pensioners and so forth, is not to face the matter and increase their allowance pro rata rather than complicate matters by these sibsidies.
In his statement the Chancellor referred to repairs and renewals which have fallen due to be carried out but owing to the war cannot be carried out now, and said:
"The Inland Revenue authorities have agreed to dispense with that detailed investigation and to found the provisional allowance on the measure of the repairs and renewals which were carried out annually before the war."
He cited the example of the lay-out of taxes and the restoration of units which may have been dispersed, and said he had agreed that similar treatment should be accorded in changing back from wartime to peace-time conditions, and he said:
"The return of industry from war production to peace production may involve the scrapping of buildings, plant and machinery which have been provided as part of the war effort. The law already provides relief both for Income Tax and for Excess Profits Tax."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943; col. 961, Vol. 388.]
I should like to ask if the allowance for repairs and lay-out of factories is going to be free of Income Tax or if tax is going to be charged on it. He makes it clear in the last case but not in the other two cases. Then he makes provision for a fall in the value of stocks occurring after the war. This is a problem that is giving concern to many industrialists and manufacturers. For the reason that we are on war production and making
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goods which are not saleable to the ordinary public after the war, we are carrying stocks which will supply us for a period of six months, sometimes 12, and those stocks will not only depreciate in value but will become obsolete. I hope the Chancellor will also give favourable consideration to the elimination of the value of those stocks from future balance-sheets at the end of the war. It is obvious that he realises that our difficulties in the change-over from war to peace are going to be far greater than in our change-over from peace to war.
There are two ways of making ends meet. One is by increased taxation, and the other is by practising economy. This House realises the necessity of economy and appointed the Select Committee on National Expenditure immediately war broke out. That Committee has produced something like 50 Reports, but it is deplorable that there have been only two Debates on these Reports. The House appointed the Committee to show the nation that it is interested in economy, and it is to blame for not taking more interest in the Committee's findings. I am aware, of course, that the Departments reply to the questions asked by the Committee. The second Report this year refers to the Report on Royal Ordnance factories issued last year. I have spent a few moments going through that Report, and I find there were 23 recommendations——
The Deputy-Chairman: We cannot go into anything which affects the administration of the Royal Ordnance factories. That will have to be done on another occasion.
Mr. Higgs: I accept your Ruling. I want to congratulate the powers-that-be on maintaining the 2 per cent. Bank rate. It has been of considerable benefit to the nation, and when we compare the conditions of this war with those of the last, when the Bank rate varied from 6 to 10 per cent., we are undoubtedly showing our strength. Obviously the supply of money at the present moment is exceeding the demand. Coupled with that, there is a National Debt of £16,000,000,000. If you say it quickly, it does not sound much. We are paying interest on that figure, and if the war finished to-morrow, we should have to pay £500,000,000 per annum in interest alone. I believe that it can be done, for I still have faith in the

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nation. Our power of production is increasing, and our power to pay this interest will remain with us at the conclusion of the war.
I should like to refer to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) on one or two occasions. He mentioned that £ s. d. were meaningless symbols. He repeated that in this House a few days ago, and it is a great pity that he did so.
Mr. Stokes: If the hon. Member wishes to quote my right hon. Friend, will he quote him in full, because enough damage has been done already by a few words being taken out of the context of what he said?
Mr. Higgs: He said it in the House in order to emphasise what he had said outside, so that he should not be misunderstood, and I consider that he has caused great harm throughout the country by making the statement at all.
Mr. Stokes: The harm was done by the Prime Minister.
Mr. Higgs: If £ s. d. are to be meaningless symbols, what is to become of the savings of the community? They are a measure, a yardstick, and we must have £s. d.
Mr. John Wilmot: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to misrepresent my right hon. Friend or to broadcast his statement in an incorrect form and, as he himself said, do great harm. The hon. Member will remember, I am sure, that the right hon. Gentleman said that if pounds, shillings and pence were divorced from the real things they represented, they would be meaningless symbols. With that I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree.
Mr. David Grenfell: Is it customary for an hon. Member to quote another Member without giving notice to the Member concerned? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield should be given an opportunity to be here to put his own interpretation on his words.
Mr. R. J. Taylor Mr. R. J. Taylor (Morpeth) rose——
The Deputy-Chairman: We are carrying this matter too far. If the hon. Member will finish his quotation and carry on, it will be much more in the interests of
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allowing more Members to take part in the Debate.
Mr. Higgs: I accept your Ruling, but I should like to ask whether it is not customary to refer to Members' speeches when they are not in the Chamber.
I will conclude by making an appeal and a suggestion to the Chancellor. Could he not see his way to consider some method of simplifying the method of compiling accounts for taxation purposes? Every year legislation adds complications and causes greater difficulties and expense for industry. Cannot the Chancellor consider a simplification of the returns? He has done it for the workers' returns, but he has given no consideration to industry. If he would do this, I am convinced that it would benefit not only industry but the Exchequer as well.
Mr. Viant: We have had an announcement to-day by the Postmaster-General, but the Committee has not had sufficient time fully to appreciate it. It was unique that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, as the ex-Financial Secretary, should have it fall to his lot as Postmaster-General to reverse what has hitherto been the policy of the Post Office and to cut down the services rather than to improve and develop them. As one who has been associated with that Department, I can appreciate that he did it with a considerable amount of reluctance. In spite of the announcement he has had to make, I am sure that the Committee will wish him all the best in his new office. The Post Office has made a not inconsiderable contribution to the war effort, and the men and women engaged in it are playing a great part in the national effort. We all appreciate what they did during the blitz in London, when we were able to see day by day the extraordinary services they were rendering under most exceptional conditions. We much regret that the services have to be cut down, but the Committee will appreciate that it is inevitable in present circumstances. The further contribution to the man-power and woman-power of the country of 2,000 men and 5,000 women is not an inconsiderable effort. I think there was a misapprehension in regard to night telegrams. If I understand the position, night telegrams will not be interfered with. It has been the practice for telegrams to be handed in at night to be delivered with the post in the

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morning, so that they have in effect become telegraph letters. That is in no way interfered with.
Captain Crookshank: It is the other way round; that is being interfered with.
Mr. Viant: Yes, interfered with in this sense, that a person will be able to hand in a telegram, and it will be delivered in the ordinary way, but its delivery as a letter next morning will no longer be possible. I want to refer to the cutting-down of postal deliveries. Here again it is extraordinary that the Postmaster-General should be taking this course, in view of the propaganda of the Department urging business people to take advantage of the mid-day post service. One of the difficulties of the Department was that the mid-day collection was invariably small, and the Department has endeavoured to persuade people to post their letters at mid-day and not leave them until the evening, when the Department was overwhelmed with a peak load. If we cut out the mid-day service——
Captain Crookshank: It is only the delivery.
Mr. Viant: If we cut out the mid-day delivery, it may have the effect of making the deliveries heavier in the morning and the evening. No doubt the present manpower will enable the Post Office to cope with that situation, and I agree that the mid-day service was the best one to be dispensed with if a cut had to be made. I am speaking only from my knowledge of the Department some years ago, but I cannot think that any considerable change has taken place in that regard. I feel rather perturbed about the cutting-out of the greetings telegrams, because they have been used very largely by the men in the Services. I think the Committee will feel rather apprehensive about that step, because we are reluctant to do anything that would restrict any advantages for those in the Services. The same argument can apply to the increase in the charges for cheap trunk telephone calls after 5.30 in the evening. I rather regret that change, because I know personally that although that service may have been used largely for social purposes, none the less it was also used and enjoyed by a very large number of men and women in the Services. I hope that further consideration may be given to that matter,
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because although I agree that efforts must be made to contribute to the man-power of the country, I know there has been a considerable demand for these cheap trunk calls. On the whole, I think that the Department has done its best to meet present-day requirements, and in present circumstances I think we have probably no alternative but to accept the austerity programme announced by the Postmaster-General. We accept it very reluctantly, and it is my sincere hope that he will have the privilege of reinstituting these services before much more water has passed under the bridges.
Sir Irving Albery: I think this can be described as a stabilising Budget and that it well deserves that name. One of the great services which the Chancellor has rendered to this country since the war began has been that he has so managed our finances that we have been able, under extremely difficult circumstances, to secure a remarkable degree of stability, a thing it is by no means easy to achieve. If, before the war, anybody had been able to predict the astronomical figures which our finances would run into, he would scarcely have believed that we should have been able to accomplish what has in fact been achieved. I think the time has definitely come when in arranging the finances of the country we must not only have regard to the actual running of the war but pay even more attention to what the results will be when the war is over. I am one of those who see no reason why, within a comparatively short time after the end of the war, the world as a whole should not be even more prosperous than it was before the war began. It seems obvious that when all the energies which have had to be devoted, unfortunately, to making war are re-directed to the productions of peace, the peace-time production of the world should become larger than it ever was. But there is one point which must remain as a cause for great concern in this country, and that is that even if the production of the world shortly after a return to peace is greater than it was before, it does not follow that this country will be able to command for its use as large a proportion of that production as it had before the war. That is something which persons should always bear in mind when they attempt to judge to what extent it may be possible to improve—and in honesty I must say even

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to maintain—the standard of living of the people of this country.
Reference has already been made to a statement by the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) on the opening day of this Debate. I had intended in any case to refer to it myself, and, what is more, I gave the right hon. Gentleman notice that I was going to do so. I propose to quote what he said:
"The Chancellor of the Exchequer, with a facility which I envy, juggled with hundreds and thousands of millions of pounds, and that only confirms my view that all these pounds, shillings and pence are meaningless symbols."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943; col. 983, Vol. 388.]
I do not know what other speeches on those lines the right hon. Gentleman may have made, and I am not comparing that quotation with the context of some other speech. That statement was made in this House, and it was quoted in important daily papers, and I cannot but, say that in my view, in making that statement in this House, the right hon. Gentleman rendered a grave disservice to this country in time of crisis. There is no more difficult task before the Chancellor of the Exchequer than to maintain, as he has successfully maintained up to the present, confidence in our currency. I would say to the right hon. Member for Wakefield, if he were in his place, that possibly he may think that pounds, shillings and pence were less of a symbol and had a greater value when we were to some extent, at any rate, if not linked to the Gold Standard at any rate to gold. I would ask him to bear in mind that if that be so, then those symbols are not less important today when they are, in fact, linked to bread and to milk.
Mr. Grenfell: I wish to do justice to the right hon. Gentleman, who is not present. I am glad that notice had been given to him. I would like to say that really that sentence should not be quoted without going down six lines in the same column of the OFFICIAL REPORT, where the right hon. Gentleman relates it, if not to bread, to goods and commodities.
Sir I. Albery: I think this is an important point, which should be cleared up, and I will gladly give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to quote anything which puts a different complexion upon that statement. I think it
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is in the national interest that it should be done when a Member of the House of the standing of the right hon. Member for Wakefield has made such a statement.
Mr. Grenfell: If it is a disservice to this country, it is the business of everybody to repair that disservice and not to exploit it. I do not say the hon. Member is doing so, but it might be exploited by others less careful of the country's interest. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
"Indeed, if I may say so, my right hon. Friend's speech, on which I congratulate him—particularly his remarkable analysis of the situation—really emphasised the fact that to-day goods and services matter more than anything else."
On the next page he said:
"The balance-sheet, as my right hon. Friend quite rightly said, cannot be expressed in pounds, shillings and pence, but can only be expressed in services which are inestimable and incalculable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1043; cols. 983–4, Vol. 388.]
Sir I. Albery: I am glad that that should have been read out, for it may, and I hope it will, detract in the minds of some people from what was said at the beginning of the speech, and if it does, so much the better. On first consideration I do not know that it makes a very great deal of difference. It is still of the utmost importance that the people of this country should realise that the value of pounds, shillings and pence in purchasing power, in relation to goods and services, must be maintained, and that is what I wanted to bring out. The Government, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us, will do everything in their power to maintain its value.
I want to make a very few remarks about some of the alterations which have been made in the Budget, and first I would like to touch upon the luxury taxes. The subject is not altogether unconnected with that which we have just been discussing. My right hon. Friend has put on a 100 per cent. luxury tax. That will not hit anybody, and so far as it goes it is all right, but I do not know that it will bring in a great deal of revenue I am not sure that it is wise, because I am not sure that there is not in it a certain influence towards inflation. It is certainly going to affect a great many articles, some of which, although luxuries, are in constant use by a great portion of the population. If the effect is going to be

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very high prices being paid for those articles, it will produce the impression that for so much pounds sterling you can buy only a small quantity of those goods, and that is an inflationary tendency. True, it will be caused by taxation and is not really inflation, but it will convey a general impression that the pound is not buying anything like as much as it did before, in those directions. For that reason this is the kind of taxation which can be pressed too far, and I very much doubt whether any real benefit results from it.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): I would remind the Committee that those taxes are one of the ways of stopping people from buying things, if prices are high.
Sir I. Albery: Most of the things which have been taxed were in difficult supply anyway. I do not want to be dogmatic about it. There is no doubt that the increase in the prices of beer and tobacco will still further aggravate hardship among certain classes of the population. I realise the Chancellor's difficulties, and I can only suppose that he has it in mind to mitigate those hardships in the near future by some improvement in the rates of pensions payable among the poorest of the community.
The next point I wish to touch upon is the Entertainments Duty. During the discussion on the Finance Bill last year I drew the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the nature of certain methods of evasion which were being used to evade the tax, and I offered him at that time what seemed a very simple plan by which the evasion could be overcome. It was that concerns which were allowed to produce entertainment free of tax should be allowed to do so on a yearly licence and that the renewal of the licence should be granted upon those concerns being able to show that they produced during the year entertainments which were of educational value to the public—rather a difficult thing to define sometimes. Secondly, they would have to show that they had done so without any profit motive. At the present moment this is not the case with many productions which are free of tax. I have never seen any reason to question the granting of the privilege of producing entertainments free of tax to such concerns as the Old Vic
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and Sadlers Wells because such associations have rendered service to the drama of this country and have been the school for many of our most distinguished artistes. Their encouragement is to be desired in every way; but this thing has been abused. Other people can quite easily form companies under the regulation by which they are allowed to produce entertainments free of tax. After all, if you have an empty theatre and you have already established a company which is allowed to produce entertainment free of tax, it is much more costly to keep your theatre empty than to put on a play, which may not produce much profit. You put on the play by a company whose productions are free of tax in a good theatre, and you pay yourself a good salary for managing it. Thus you get more profits than if you had put the play on as an ordinary commercial enterprise. That is one example
There is another entertainment which I hope to see, because I understand that it is well worth seeing. I understand also that it is free of tax. I am surprised to notice that the management are charging 12s. 6d. for the stalls, exactly the same price as an ordinary theatre charges from which it has to surrender the tax. The free-of-tax production does not surrender any tax, and it appears that they are putting the difference into their own pockets. I should not say "their own pockets." The production is supposed to be without profit. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make inquiries and find out how the artistes are paid, whether by percentage of the takings or by definite salary. If it is by percentage of the takings, the artistes may be doing very much better than with an ordinary commercial enterprise. I understand that the Customs and Excise Department can give information about this matter, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give this matter attention on an early occasion.
The last matter I wish to raise is not unrelated to the question of excess profits. Casually, not professionally, I have examined the accounts of a good many companies lately, some of them large concerns which are doing war work. The percentage of extra turnover during the war is not very large. They may be doing 20 per cent. larger turnover than they did before the war. On the other

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hand, I have examined the accounts of a lot of younger and smaller companies who are not only doing war work but have expanded six, seven or eight times in their turnover on account of the war. I find this difference: The larger concerns who have not increased their turnover very materially on account of the war probably had a good profit standard before the war, and they are piling up very substantial and desirable reserves which they mainly reinvest in Government funds and lend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the war.
When I look at the accounts of the other companies—and in a sense they are more truly representative of the kind of private enterprise one wants to encourage than the bigger ones who have already become administrative machines—they are the real, live people inside private industry. It has been possible for them to increase their turnover, but when I look into their accounts I find a very different picture. I find large bank loans, perhaps three or four times the size of their capital. I find large sums of money owing, in addition to the bank loans, and part of it owing on account of Excess Profits tax. I cannot help asking myself what the position of these more enterprising but smaller companies will be when the war is over. It looks very much to me that if a good many of these companies are to survive at all, they will survive only by being bought out by the bigger ones, who have not been so active during the war but have been able to accumulate reserves for use after the war. That is a matter to which I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will give his attention.
He may also be able to give his attention to another matter, and, if I may be a little more specific, he may be able to do something. I would ask him to look into the position as it was—I do not know what it is to-day—of the British Marc Company, which has been discussed in this House. There was a concern—and whatever investigations may have had to be made by the Public Accounts Committee were not because of any question about their war production or this company's efforts towards war production—whose war production was praised by everybody, but it owed a lot of money to the Government and to the banks. The chartered accountant who
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spoke for it said that its shares were not worth a penny piece, yet it was working hard for the Government during the war. That is an example of the kind of thing I have in mind. We have been discussing lately another concern called Short Bros. I do not know what the expert valuation of Short's shares would be today. There is some £3,000,000 of indebtedness against them, and if the war came to an end, I do not know what their shares would be worth. This is a good example, from which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to see what kind of thing I have in mind.
Finally, as I have been fortunate enough to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place in time for my concluding remarks, I would like to repeat before him that he has earned a great tribute from the country for the very able manner in which he has succeeded in stabilising and keeping sound the finances of this country during an extremely difficult period.
Mr. Tom Brown: As a new Member, on Monday I had my first opportunity of listening to a Budget Statement. In the opening chapter of the very voluminous document, which I believe contained over 12,000 words, the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the people of America and of Canada and in particular to their new manifestations of splendid co-operation in the common cause. He said it was magnificent in total and greathearted in manner, and he said that although the people of Canada were not very numerous—not so numerous as their neighbours—their action had been on a grand scale, and was the action of a nation conscious of its power and its place. As a very humble Member of this House with a large number of friends in America, and in Canada in particular, I heartily endorse the expressions of appreciation and gratitude made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to our Canadian friends.
It appears to me that our Canadian friends, though few in number believe in that philosophy, which runs something like this:
"There is that scattereth, and yet in-creaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty."
It is fundamentally true and an undeniable fact that the helping hand of benefice

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and generosity never goes unrewarded, and I hope that in the very near future the beneficent and generous hand of the Chancellor will be extended to our old age pensioners. May I also express the hope that the action of our Canadian friends in their generous and gracious contribution will receive its reward, despite the fact that we had in this House last night a most despicable and mischievous statement made by the hon. and gallant Member for St. Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid), who tried to undermine in that speech the generosity and appreciation of our Canadian friends? But I can assure him of this, that so far as I am concerned, and so far as the friends I have in America, and particularly Canada, are concerned, speeches of that character are like water on a duck's back to our Canadian friends.
It is my purpose to draw the attention of the Chancellor very respectfully to those proposals of the Budget which in my opinion will hit the poorer sections of the community still harder than they have already been hit. The Chancellor has seen fit to increase indirect taxation, presumably on the score that so far as direct taxation is concerned, the saturation point has been reached. If my memory serves me aright, he made reference to the blending of direct taxation and indirect taxation. I am not quite so sure whether his blending of these two things will be palatable to the industrial workers of this country. It is now proposed by the Chancellor to increase the price of tobacco and alcoholic beverages, both of which apparently are officially regarded as luxuries. I do not want to give the impression to this Committee that I am speaking as one who takes beer. I have never tasted strong beer in my life, so I cannot be accused of objecting to that increase for myself. Whether it is a virtue or not is a matter of opinion, but no one will quarrel, in my view, with the idea that luxury expenditure should provide the rabbit for the Treasury hounds.
It is not a matter of major concern to me that certain opulent people should have to suffer the hardship of drinking more democratically, should have to call for humble beers instead of the wines and whiskies of other days. Nor, for that matter, am I perturbed at the prospect of the £5,000 a year man having to substitute cigarettes for the product of Havana. I am however much concerned
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about the effect of the new charges on the already less than meagre margin of luxury permitted to our old age pensioners, who now total well over 3,000,000. Even in this House, where there are still a few militant individualists who connect widespread and abject poverty with personal insufficiency, it would be extremely difficult to find anyone who would put up a case for depriving our old age pensioners of an occasional smoke, although they would probably be hard put to it to endure the close proximity of pipes charged with the cheapest type of tobacco. If you must increase indirect taxation of the kind we are discussing, and have discussed during the last two or three days, then what possible argument is there against placing the old age pensioner in a position to meet it? In other words, if you are to be laid open to the charge of penalising the most defenceless section of the community, why not take the bold, courageous and immediate step of increasing the basic pension rate payable to our old age pensioners?
These are days, everybody agrees, of almost fantastic and colossal financial estimates and expenditure. I remember when I went to school being staggered when I read in my history book that the National Debt had reached the alarming figure of £29,000,000. That was the figure before me in my school days. What is it to-day? But the life of the nation goes on, although an expenditure of £464,000,000 for civil purposes, of which the old age pensions charge is but a fraction, in a gross national expenditure of nearly £6,000,000,000, appears to some to be the surest sign of economic collapse and social disruption. More than once since I came into this House during the life and death struggle in which the nation is engaged, it has been urged on us by the Prime Minister and his colleagues that we must be realists. I now appeal to the Chancellor to take a realistic view of the terrible economic predicament of old age pensioners. I want to ask him this question: What justification can there be for a process which gives the old age pensioner something with one hand and takes it away with the other? It is true to say that this House through the medium of the Treasury conceded 2s. 6d. a week extra in supplementary pensions in 1940, yet the two Budgets that we have

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had since have taken away that amount which was given in supplementary pensions, to give the old age pensioner a few extra shillings——
The Deputy-Chairman: It has already been ruled this year and last year, I think, that we can refer to old age pensions, as the hon. Gentleman has done, but that we cannot go into them in very great detail or at very great length. That is why I allowed the hon. Member to go on for at any rate a considerable period.
Mr. Tinker: With respect, I think your Ruling, Mr. Williams, is very narrow. There has been a Budget Statement covering all phases of society, whatever they may be. Surely the old age pensioners have a claim to have their case put in the Committee after the Budget Statement has been made? I want, if I may respectfully, to challenge that Ruling to cut down the discussion on old age pensioners.
The Deputy-Chairman: Perhaps I might reply to that first. The Budget deals with taxation. The old age pensioner, when he draws his pension, is in an entirely different position. That is paying out money; it is administration. We are dealing here with direct and indirect taxation, not administration. That is why I think it is fair to make the illustration that there are people who can ill afford to pay a particular duty, but I do not think the illustration ought to be used to raise the question of old age pensions, which is an administrative act.
Mr. James Griffiths: The Budget Statement is a statement by the Chancellor, first of all about the money he proposes to raise for the ensuing 12 months and the purposes to which he proposes to devote that money. Surely it is in Order to urge that the amount provided in the Budget for old age pensions as a contribution from the State is too little and ought to be increased and, in that way, old age pensions increased. I remember myself speaking in general Budget Debates in the past in which we have made complaint that the amounts for social services have been inadequate, and have pressed for them to be increased.
The Deputy-Chairman: Yes, as an illustration, but if we are to deal in the Budget with the administration of old age
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pensions, it is equally possible to deal with agriculture, the Army, the Navy, and every other form of service. That is why it was ruled—I think I am right in saying—last year, and has been continually, that an illustration can be given but that there must not be a Debate on the merits or otherwise of raising old age pensions.
Mr. George Griffiths: This is about the 12th Budget I have listened to. We have always been able to get in and put the point of view that the old age pensioners' allowance was too small, and have asked the Chancellor that there should be an increase between now and, say, the next Budget, and we have always been allowed to follow that line. I am amazed that to-day and yesterday, just because a Member mentions the pensions, if he is proceeding to say, "The old chap has not sufficient and he should have more," the Chairman of Ways and Means gets up and says he is out of Order. I think it is wrong.
The Deputy-Chairman: I would say that this is not the first year this has happened by any means. It was done last year. The making of a reference has been allowed. The hon. Gentleman who is speaking had made a pretty general reference to old age pensions, and I had not stopped him until it seemed as if it was going to become a really long speech on this subject and not a reference or an illustration.
Mr. S. O. Davies: I may be able to catch your eye in the course of the Debate, Mr. Williams, in which case it was certainly my intention to make special reference to the increased taxation on tobacco and the effect of that on the last little comfort left to the old age pensioner. Would I not be in Order in dealing with that and elaborating it to my heart's content if I felt so disposed? We feel seriously on that isolated point in the Budget, that surely the old age pensioner has been robbed of the little comforts left to him, his pipe or his ounce of tobacco every week. Would you rule me out of Order if I wanted to express myself strongly on that particular point?
Mr. Ness Edwards: I have no desire to embarrass the Chair, but I would like to put this point. Yesterday one speech dealt wholly with the wasting assets of sand and gravel, of the capacity

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of that industry to pay a tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget Statement, referred to what is to be done with a proportion of Excess Profits Tax for the purpose of enabling industry to transform itself from war to peace production. Surely the capacity of an important section of our community to pay the taxes which the Chancellor proposes to levy is a matter which ought to be allowed to be adequately discussed, especially in view of the fact that the effect of your Ruling, with all respect, Mr. Williams, makes it appear that in debate a preference is to be given to large vested interests?
The Deputy-Chairman: As far as the administration of a tax is concerned, as to whether that tax should be reduced or not is obviously a Budget matter. It is obviously perfectly fair to bring into the Budget Debate that with a tax at the present rate people have not the means of paying it. As far as the individual is concerned, it has always been the practice in the House to illustrate one's points that this or that individual is not able to bear this or that form of taxation, but to carry that illustration into a long, elaborate argument that you must increase his pension is where, I maintain, hon. Members are going wrong. Use it as an illustration that he is hard up and cannot pay the Tax, but not as a means of trying to get an increase in the pension. That is the point.
Mr. T. Brown: You found it necessary, Mr. Williams, to call me to Order when I was making my appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the question of the inadequacy of the old age pension to enable the pensioner to pay the increased tax on tobacco and beer. I will content myself with referring to the increased tax on beer. The Chancellor has deemed it advisable to increase the tax on beer. I wonder whether he visualises the condition of our men who are engaged in heavy industries, particularly miners, steel workers, railwaymen and transport workers. I speak from considerable experience, having spent 35 years underground in a deep, hot mine, and I know the effects on the constitution of working in deep, hot mines.
Mr. Tinker: On a point of Order. I wish the Chancellor could take a more serious view of this criticism. It may be that a man is smiling——
The Deputy-Chairman: I do not think that is a point of Order. After all, we are all allowed to smile occasionally.
Mr. Brown: It is said, rightly, that the smiling and beneficent face is an indication of generosity. I hope that we shall see some generosity to-day. I was referring to the hardship experienced by men in the mining and heavy steel industries, who have to bear the increased tax on their pint of beer. I want the Chancellor, before he decides to allow the tax to continue, to visualise the hardship which will be inflicted upon these men. In our pits in Lancashire and other parts of the North, where men have to work in temperatures of from 90 to no degrees, they do lose, during the seven and a half hours from the time when they leave the surface in the morning to the time when they are brought back to the surface in the afternoon, from seven to 13 pounds in weight as a result of the excessive perspiration. I ask the Chancellor to visualise the extraordinary expenditure which those men will have to meet when they try to retrieve their lost strength. Not only are they working in very high temperatures, but at present, owing to the highly intensified mechanisation of our pits, they are working in atmospheres loaded with dust, so much so that you cannot see your finger before you. That dust has its effect upon the man who has to swallow the drink. It is all very well for people to argue that these things could be met in the pits, during the working hours, but you cannot meet them. These men have to partake of beer in order that they may retrieve the strength they have lost through working under such conditions. I submit that it will be a hardship to the men working in deep, hot mines, who have to consume from six to eight pints of beer a day, to have to pay such a tax. I cannot let this occasion pass without referring to an experience of my own. The temperature brought about such an acute thirst one day that in order to save my life I was compelled to partake of water containing human blood.
I was particularly anxious to draw attention to the proposals in the Budget which will increase the burden of the poorer sections of the community still more. There are other ways of raising taxation than by imposing it upon the working people, and particularly upon the old age pensioners. I hope you will not

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call me to Order, Mr. Williams, because this matter is burning in my soul. That is the reason why I speak with the depth of feeling which I do. I feel almost ashamed of myself, as a citizen of this country, when I see our old age pensioners living in such abject, poverty-stricken conditions. I hope you will pardon my making this reference, but the time is long overdue when our old age pensioners should receive treatment commensurate with a decent standard of life.
Sir Stanley Reed: I should like to endorse what has fallen from my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown), in his eloquent refutation of the degrading attack made yesterday upon our American Allies and Canadian fellow-subjects. But I think we may well leave that subject to the Minister of Information, with the reflection, however, that even barbed shafts sometimes fail to penetrate the hippopotamus's hide.
Mr. Stokes: On a point of Order. Is one hon. Member entitled to call another hon. Member a hippopotamus?
The Deputy-Chairman: I did not hear that remark.
Sir S. Reed: I would like to remind my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) that we have a phrase in the West country, applicable to a man who is always excessively anxious to interrupt other people, that he has no lead in his breeches. I do not think my hon. Friend has any connection with the West country, but I might suggest that that aphorism might be equally applied in East Anglia. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor put in the forefront of his Budget the international aspect of our finance. Although occasional reference has been made to it, I very much doubt whether the House and the country appreciate all that we owe to the international action which has been taken in this war. I do not want the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to tell me that I am talking economic heresy when I say that internal debt is a comparatively easy thing to manage. It involves only the transfer of funds from one pocket to another within the corpus of the community. It does not go outside the community. But external debt can be a tremendous, and sometimes an overbearing, problem. An
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earlier Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Bonar Law, who had grim recollections of the last war, bore testimony to that truism. When payment for international debt, or overseas debt, is not accepted in goods or services, and the debtor has no gold, it brings us to the doorway opening on to that very dismal land—repudiation. Although testimony has been borne once or twice in this discussion to all we owe to the United States, it may not always be realised that the astronomical figures in this Budget and the extraordinary smoothness with which our war Budgets have gone through have been in very large part due to the action of that country. Although it is true that under what I might call reverse Lend-Lease a greater balance is now being struck, there was no reverse Lend-Lease when Franklin Roosevelt launched this great proposal, and it was generously supported by the Legislature of the country which is now our Ally. Nor do I think we can sufficiently appreciate the magnificent generosity of the Government and people of Canada, which has been so tremendously important in smoothing the passage of our war finance.
While we have those two examples before us, I am quite confident that this Committee does not appreciate the revolutionary financial and economic change which has come over a country with which I am somewhat familiar: that is, India. At the end of the last war India emerged with a sterling balance in this country of about £108,000,000, but with an increased sterling debt. I think I am correct in saying that since this war broke out India has discharged or repatriated the whole of her sterling debt. That sum, which stood at £376,000,000 when the war broke out, has now been repatriated. Not only that, but she has accumulated in this country sterling balances amounting in the last figures I have to over £302,000,000 and it is rising. So in the war period, by virtue of the great expenditure which has taken place in India on behalf of this and the other united Governments, India has not only discharged the whole of her sterling debt, but has accumulated balances exceeding the total amount of British capital invested in India in various industries. In other words, India has passed in these three years from being a debtor country to being a creditor country. I was very loth yesterday to interrupt a speaker to whom we all listen with very great

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respect, the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), but when he said that some part of our financial activity after the war might be directed to helping India to build roads, the fact is that the precise converse will be the case. It may well be a case of India lending us money to reconstruct our ruined and desolated cities rather than of our having to consider lending money for her own development. Some 15 years ago a very distinguished financial economist in India rather startled the country by saying that if she mobilised her own resources she would become a creditor country. That process has been expedited so remarkably that, financially, India will emerge from this war, in point of view of unproductive debt, the strongest country in the whole world. I simply mention these facts, in continuation of the remarks I made about Lend-Lease and Canada, to emphasis a point which I think has great importance at this juncture.
My right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh and my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Graham White) drew a rather glowing picture of what is going to be the state of this country after the war. They may be right. I hope they will be right and that I shall be proved to be entirely wrong. But when I find estimates that after the war this country will not be any worse off than it was before the war and that after the war the national wealth will continue to grow at the same rate as it did before the war, I ask myself on what possible foundation those estimates can be based.
Mr. J. Griffiths: On the foundation of productive capacity.
Sir S. Reed: Productive capacity is one force; but there are three factors in industry—capital, labour and demand. Active demand denotes capacity to pay for the commodities to satisfy that demand. It is to our capacity, after the war, to continue to pay for the commodities we have been used to import, after we have lost these overseas revenues, that I ask the Committee to give their serious attention.
Mr. J. Griffiths: Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that the capacity to buy cannot be increased with capacity to produce?
Sir S. Reed: I certainly suggest that to continue to buy overseas in order to maintain the standard demanded by the country itself can be very seriously impaired by the loss of the power issuing from the assets on which these purchases have been made in the past. It is to the loss of that purchasing power that I suggest inadequate study has been given. The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave us the astounding figure that before Lend-Lease came into operation we had expended £1,500,000,000 on war supplies and raw material in the United States of America. Perhaps the Financial Secretary, in replying to the Debate, will tell us precisely where this £1,500,000,000 came from? It is, I think, obvious that one result is the complete disappearance of our earning investments and in the loss of purchasing power in the United States which those investments embodied. The same general conditions apply, in greater or less degree, to Canada and to India. One of the great problems of India used to be the Home charges. They were about £40,000,000 a year, representing £40,000,000 of purchasing power. Those £40,000,000 now are reduced to a maximum of £8,000,000, so that £32,000,000 worth of purchasing power has been lost to this country to India. It used to be a great problem how to maintain the rupee at the old rate of 1s. 4d. In future, there will be the greatest difficulty in keeping it down to 1s. 6d. I only mention these points to illustrate the major issue.
I hope therefore my hon. Friends who say that everything is going to be roses, roses all the way, after the war are right. I believe with Marshal Smuts that you cannot expect a new heaven and a new earth after the most destructive war in history, and with the Minister of Aircraft Production in his call to austerity in our lives and conduct. They may well be more nearly correct than the belief of those who think that we have a primrose path right ahead of us, and who do not consider we should bear our lives with simplicity and austerity to meet the future with confidence, faith and success. I was brought up in the faith of the greatest economist of all times—Wilkins Micawber, Esq. Wilkins Micawber said:
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen, nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."

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People are very fond of quoting Micawber, but they often forget that when he drew a bill—3, 6, or 9 months—he thought he had paid a debt. There are people asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to draw bills, not for 3, 6 or 9 months, but for 20 years ahead without considering whether his successor can meet them on maturity. I hope they are right; I have the very gravest doubts as to whether they are right. For these reasons I ask hon. Friends to consider whether we should not look forward with confidence, faith and courage to a world of high thinking, plain living and hard work.
Mr. J. Griffiths: For all?
Sir S. Reed: For all without exception. The hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) yesterday spoke very wise words as to the readjustments of income. We are ironing out social and economic injustices which have prevailed too long. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has gone a great way in that direction already and he will have to go much farther. All of us who think will welcome the fact that he has taken those steps. I can see no idle rich in the future. I can only see that some may be perhaps a little better off who have the merit of harder work or exceptional ability. There is nothing which need discourage us in this forecast; rather the contrary; so I trust we shall go forward with courage, hope, confidence and faith to a life of simple living and greater austerity; and that we shall draw from it an even greater happiness than in anticipating roseate conditions which cannot, in my belief, obtain under revolutionary changes which we know have been wrought by the years of war.
Mr. Thomas Fraser: I rise with some little reluctance to make my first contribution to a Debate in this Assembly, and I do so not as an expert on economics and finance, but merely as a representative of the common man. If my few remarks should seem to be ill-constructed, and if I should falter a little, and even if some hon. Members should think my remarks to be even ill-conceived, I trust that they will bear with me in this my first attempt in this House.
I believe that most hon. Members will subscribe to the view in these times in the prosecution of total war that all should
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give all they can in the effort for victory. The test of this Budget is to see how far it accepts that principle. It would be unthinkable to allow each of us voluntarily to contribute our share of the financial responsibility of a modern war, just as it would be unthinkable to depend on everyone of us individually to contribute what we thought fit towards the gaining of our war victories, to our fighting personnel, and especially without reward in cash. It is given to the Minister of Labour and National Service to organise the manpower of this country for total war and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer so to organise the financial resources of the country as to ensure that we shall retain some sort of economic stability throughout this time of great stress. There is nothing to be gained in attempting to measure the success attending the efforts of these two Ministers in their difficult, and one might well say impossible, task of trying to distribute the burden of the war equally. What I understand to be the task of the Committee in this Debate is to try and appreciate how far former war Budgets have succeeded in sharing the financial responsibility of the war and whether the latest changes proposed do more evenly or less evenly share that responsibility.
I am definitely of opinion that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by way of these changes, has less evenly shared the financial responsibility of the war. I understand fully that in the best interests of the country we should meet as much of our war expenses as is humanly possible out of taxation, in preference to meeting it by borrowing and thereby passing on the burden to posterity. Why the extra £100,000,000 or so the Chancellor of the Exchequer hopes to get in the next 12 months should be subscribed only by those who have a pipe or a drink or go to the cinema, and mainly because they do such things, is beyond my comprehension. This is not a smokers' war, a drinkers' war or a cinema-goers' war, and it will not be their victory. I understand that it is a people's war and that when we gain victory, as I trust we shall, it will be everybody's victory, it will be a people's victory. Let us then make it a people's war and share equally, as far as is humanly possible, the financial responsibility. Let the Chancellor of the Exchequer order each and all of us to

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pay in accordance with our ability to pay. Nobody would suggest that the increases in indirect taxation envisaged in the Budget accept that principle. The truth of the matter is, as other hon. Members have said, that the new increases will bear heavily on hundreds of thousands of already overburdened working men—those with low fixed incomes, and some with very low incomes which are not fixed. I think particularly of the old age pensioner. In view of what has already been said on behalf of that unfortunate section of the community, whose only crime is that they have survived the rigours of time, I do not propose to say any more. I would certainly have favoured an increase in direct taxation rather than the new indirect taxation to be imposed.
I should like to say a word about the reliefs the Chancellor of the Exchequer is giving to some Income Tax payers in the way of allowances. I know of a very hard case where the persons concerned will probably feel more aggrieved than ever at their apparent isolation in the new circumstances. I refer to the person whose physical disability requires the attention of a housekeeper. I have in mind the particular case of a man who had a serious accident as a boy, in which he lost an arm and a leg. In spite of his disability, this man has always been in employment, but I suppose that, probably because of his disability, he never married. Until a few years ago his aged mother kept house for him, and he had relief in respect of her, but when she died he had to bring in another person to look after him and to attend to his daily needs. The result is that he has found himself in a much worse position so far as Income Tax assessment is concerned. It is absolutely necessary for this man to have a housekeeper to look after him, but because he is not a widower his claim for housekeeper's allowance cannot be entertained. Surely it is within the ingenuity of the Chancellor's Department to amend the law whereby relief could be allowed in such a case as I have described, especially when it can be proved beyond any shadow of doubt that it is necessary to have a housekeeper because of physical disability.
A further point I would like to make is with reference to the Purchase Tax. It was with pleasure that I heard the Chancellor say in his Budget speech that he
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had decided to exempt utility textiles, at a cost of about £6,000,000 a year. I deeply regret, however, that there is still spending on super-luxuries, from which the Chancellor proposes to make good that loss. The Chancellor decided to make good his deficit by bring the tax on luxury articles up to 100 per cent., and some people will be foolish enough to believe that they are actually helping the war effort by spending on such articles. For my part, I deprecate the spending on such luxuries as fur coats. It should not be allowed to continue in these difficult times. Merely to tax such spending is a confession that irresponsible people have too much money with which to fool around, utilising, as they do, valuable labour that could far better be applied in other directions. I would forcibly abolish all such spending and compulsorily direct the money to the better interests of the community. I think I have probably said enough in my first contribution to this Assembly, and I trust that what I have said will be accepted as representing the view of a large section of the community and be treated with the consideration and respect it thereby deserves.
Major Oscar Guest: It is my pleasant duty to compliment the maiden speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Fraser), and I am sure I am voicing the opinion of everybody when I say that the manner of his address and the meat of what he said interested us all.
I would like to add my meed of praise to the general approval shown on all sides of the Chancellor's war Budget. It is a truly remarkable achievement for him and the country that he should have been able to produce such a Budget in this, the fourth, year of war. The two figures he mentioned which struck me most were that we were paying 46 per cent. of our war expenditure and that the cost-of-living figure had not gone up since the beginning of the war by more than about 30 per cent. These are remarkable figures. One hon. Member rather doubted whether keeping the cost of living down was altogether wise and economically sound, but the vicious spiral of the rising cost of living and rising wages trying to keep up with it was a bugbear in the last war which has been successfully avoided in this war.

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There are only two points to which I would like to call attention, as I do not profess to be an expert on finance. There are two large classes in this country who are now paying tax and who did not pay tax before the war. By far the larger are the weekly and hourly wage-earners. The question has been posed many times—and it was raised over a year ago in the Production Debate—as to why Income Tax cannot be related to the actual weekly earnings of the person concerned. At that time, I think, the Chancellor said that while he was sympathetic to the suggestion it was impossible to bring it about. I was glad therefore to hear him say in his Budget speech that consideration of the current earning basis of taxation had not been ruled out. That is very important for the war effort and for the situation that will arise in the post-war years. The Minister of Production told us a short while ago that considerable changes now in the munitions industry will be required, and in the readjustments and movements of labour which that will entail. We have already found that in the alterations which have been imposed. Labour has had to be moved, over-time periods have had to be changed and bonus rates have had to be re-fixed—and it should be remembered that bonuses form a very considerable proportion of a worker's earnings. If, during a certain period of alteration, a wage packet is not what it was, a worker suffers very hardly because he finds himself going home with an amount of money that does not meet the burdens he has to face.
It is hard on all classes of the community to be taxed on assessments for the previous year, but it is, of course, much harder on those who are not so well off. I do not think the Treasury could not solve the problem if they felt it vitally necessary. It is not for me to tell the Chancellor how he should do it, but if we are to have difficulty in the changeover from munitions production at the end of the war, the position will be much more serious. The difficulties which will face the country then will cause un-settlement in wage and salary conditions right through the country, and if there is to be this handicap of Income Tax based on previous earnings, the situation will be worsened. The classes which have accepted direct taxation have accepted it willingly, and I hope the Chancellor will
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make an early effort to see whether this taxation cannot be on the wage packet as it is received and adjustments made afterwards.
I now want to put in a plea for the small and medium-sized farmer. There is one commodity which is essential for the farmer, and that is capital, upon which the success or non-success of his farming rests. Capital is employed by the farmer on improvements, reconditioning, repairs to buildings, manuring, and improving the land. Though at present the farmer enjoys subsidies, it should be borne in mind that he has two disabilities. One is that he has a poor standard of pre-war profit, and the other is that he is eating into the capital of his land by over-cultivation for war purposes. I think some concession or assistance should be given in regard to the taxation of the farming community. I think we might take farming taxation as being based on the class of land, the acreage of the farm and a reasonable pre-war profit standard. The farmer is making as great an effort as the munition worker is making towards the prosecution of the war, and he will find himself in a poor position at the end of it if his burden of taxation cannot be eased to meet his capital needs. Those are the only two points I wanted to make. As I have said, I think our position after four years of war is remarkable and one about which our adversaries cannot be happy. Nevertheless, we shall have a difficult post-war situation to face, and I think the wage-earning classes and the farming community should be considered. The changeover to peace conditions must be done with the least difficulty and hardship to all concerned, and some assistance to the two classes of taxpayers I have mentioned might pave the way in that direction.
Mr. Stokes: I want to open my few remarks and criticisms of the Chancellor's Budget by making, first of all, a reference to a point made in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for North West Camberwell (Major O. Guest). That is the importance of arranging Income Tax so that it can be collected out of the pay week. Everybody connected with the industry knows the importance of this matter, and I agree that it cannot be beyond the wisdom of the officials of the Treasury to devise some such scheme. Even my own officials

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devised a suitable scheme, but the Government said it was out of order and contrary to the law. That being so, the best thing the Chancellor could do would be to amend the law so that this very desirable change can take place.
Almost every speech that has been made so far in this Debate has been in genuine appreciation of the Chancellor's Budget. I know that the right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised or take offence if I say that I do not propose to follow suit, for it seems to me that a Budget so universally commended must be bad. I have several points which I want to put to the Chancellor, and I am delighted to have the chance of speaking while he is in his place. In the first place, I think the method the Chancellor has adopted of raising the extra taxation will drive home to the ordinary working man the fact that it is he who ultimately pays all taxes. For that reason, regretful though I am that an extra penny a pint has been put on beer—I do not think it will make any difference to the amount consumed, nor does the Chancellor think it will—I hope that working people throughout the length and breadth of the land will take it to heart that they, and they alone, are the people who ultimately produce all taxation. I want also to add my word of support to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) and others about old age pensions. It is regrettable that the Chancellor has not yet been able to provide something more for old age pensioners. It is an interesting and useful reflection that a tax of 1d. a pint on beer more than covers the supplementary pensions to old age pensioners. My recollection is that the supplementary pensions cost about £27,000,000 a year, whereas the Chancellor expects to raise £33,000,000 in a full year from the extra 1d. a pint on beer. I suggest to him that it would have been very acceptable to the country if at the same time as he put the 1d. on beer, he had increased the old age pensions, and said that it was in this way that he was getting the money to do it. I propose in the main to devote my remarks to various things that were said by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in his Financial Statement. In the early part of his speech, referring to Lend-Lease, he said:
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"It rests upon the principle that in a common war all shall give all they can to the common task."
A little later he went on to quote something that was written by Robert Hamilton in 1814:
"No exertion can be too great, no pressure of increasing burthens is to be regarded, no dread of exhausting our resources entertained."
I agree with my hon. Friend, but I hope that when he makes his winding up speech he will assure us that that attitude will not cease when the war ends. That attitude of mind and that approach, desirable in war-time, are doubly desirable in peace time for our economic security. In referring further to Lend-Lease, the Chancellor said:
"The American people have never put the dollar sign in the help that they have given us."
That astonishes me, for they have. On hearing it, I came to the conclusion that my right hon. Friend does not read the newspapers as closely as he ought to do and is not as closely in touch with America as he ought to be. I have seen published in British newspapers, and in extracts from American newspapers, a complete dollar analysis of what the Americans have done. It was, for instance, published in the "Economist" on 20th March, and the figure for total Lend-Lease from 4th March, 1941, to 1st March, 1943, was shown as 9,630,000,000 dollars, of which 4,430,000,000 dollars came to Great Britain, 1,826,000,000 dollars to Russia, and about 2,900,000,000 dollars to Africa, the Middle East and the rest. I do not understand the reluctance of the Chancellor to put a figure to our Lend-Lease in the opposite direction. It would serve a most useful purpose in our relationships with our friends across the Atlantic that they should have some gauge of what we have done. My right hon. Friend went on to say that we have already spent about £150,000,000 in constructing aerodromes, barracks and the like for the benefit of American Forces here, and he gave the amount of our Lend-Lease to Russia as about £170,000,000. I am not clear whether he meant that goods to that amount had actually arrived in Russia or had been despatched to Russia; perhaps he will clear up that point when he replies to the Debate. There was a feeling at the back of my mind that perhaps the Lend-Lease to America was so much in excess of the

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figure to Russia that he did not want to disclose it. The point I wish to make is that it would serve a most useful purpose in our relations with America if it were generally known in America what we have supplied in Lend-Lease, I can see the difficulty there would be in measuring services, but America has put a figure to the equipment, etc., she has sent to us, and I cannot see there is any reason we should not do likewise, so that everybody may know what is the position. Later on in his speech, the Chancellor quoted an utterance of the Prime Minister that:
"We and the Americans would find ourselves greatly mixed up during the war,"
to which my right hon. Friend added:
"We are all liking and benefiting from the mixture, and we shall continue it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943; cols. 937–942, Vol. 388.]
I have two reflections to make on that remark. The first is that propinquity—I do not know whether that is the right word—leads to understanding; in other words, the closer you get to people, the better you are likely to know them, and the more likely you are to be able to live at peace with them. The other reflection, with which I think all my hon. Friends on this side will agree, is that it is Governments who make war and not peoples. I hope that attitude of mind may be developed so that we may mix freely with all the peoples of the world and see whether we cannot come to a better understanding as soon as ever possible. On the question of borrowing, the Chancellor made a remark which I found it difficult to follow. In talking about loans which had been raised in various parts of the world, he said:
"The rest we have to borrow from those countries who are making common cause with us and whom we are defending, and we are incurring a considerable obligation about repayment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943; col. 942, Vol. 388.]
Will my right hon. Friend clear up that point? Whom does he mean, how much have we borrowed from them, and how much has been lent to them in return? It may be that the figures are not considerable and not worth bothering about. With regard to war damage payments, although the Chancellor stated that the amount paid out had exceeded the premiums, he left us in the dark as to what the amount had been. Surely, there would be no difficulty or danger in making
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those figures public. I come now to a highly controversial point. The Chancellor referred to the extra compensation which is to be provided for wastage in the case of certain minerals, such as sand and gravel. It may be that under the system under which we live the Chancellor can argue that his proposals, when they are known in more detail, are quite equitable, but this seems to me to be a deplorable trend. The whole method of approach that has been tried in this war has been that nobody should make anything out of it, but it now appears that all the owners of raw materials are to be assured their profit return when the war is over. It is all very well for the Chancellor to make a not very pleasant face about it, but it is a fact. I quite understand that in the case of wasting machinery which is produced wealth there should be some measure of compensation for wear and tear, but I cannot understand why extra compensation should be provided for gravel and sand-pit owners who have not put the gravel and sand in the ground. It is quite beyond my comprehension why, because we have to take rather more gravel and sand from the pits in order to defend this island, they should receive extra compensation. If the Chancellor intends to follow that line, what he ought to do also is to assess what is the possible income that might have been earned by every soldier who is killed and assure to his mother, father, sweetheart or wife, whoever it may be, an adequate amount of compensation on the assumption of what the soldier would have earned if, instead of being killed, he had continued to live. It is the same old ugly business of vested interest and capital monopoly rearing their heads again. I am shocked and surprised that the Chancellor should gradually be allowing them to edge their way in again so as to let us down in the same way as we were let down after the last war. I turn now to another, and to me a more familiar, subject—the service of the debt after the war. The right hon. Gentleman said:
"Service of the debt after the war may be kept as low as possible and thus, among other things, greatly help then our plans for reconstruction and advancement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943; col. 945, Vol. 388.]
At this stage I would like to clear up a very mischievous remark that has been made about a statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) when he referred a short

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time ago to pounds, shillings and pence becoming meaningless symbols. I thought that the Prime Minister had done enough damage to this country when he half-quoted my right hon. Friend over the wireless, but the matter has been taken up twice in the Debate to-day by hon. Members who are not now in the Chamber. I would like to put on record in this Debate what my right hon. Friend really said, because it seems to me to be a most mischievous thing to allow such a phrase to be taken out of its context and sent around the world as if my right hon. Friend and his supporters on this side were irresponsible, congenital idiots incapable of clearly appreciating what the real situation is. On 16th February, my right hon. Friend said:
"I do not believe that the way to national recovery and prosperity is through the dark, foetid channel of harsh restrictions and economy. There may be those who disagree with me in this, but pounds, shillings and pence have become quite meaningless symbols. The future of this country does not depend on the Bank of England and the 'Big Five.' At their best the banks are but the lubricant oiling the wheels of production. The future of this country and of the world depends not upon money-changing, book-keeping and accountancy, but upon what brains and brawn can produce out of the bowels of the earth."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th February, 1943; col. 1623, Vol. 386.]
I do not want to labour the point, but I think it was most mischievous that that should have been put out over the wireless in the way it was, and I regret that any hon. Member should see fit to take up the matter again in the same strain and misquote my right hon. Friend. The pith of the whole money matter is simply this, that the Chancellor is overpowered by the city interests. I do not believe my right hon. Friend the Chancellor really has a clear conception of what money is! I have raised this point with him again and again and urged upon him that he should encourage people to indulge in interest-free loans. There have been quite considerable interest-free loans, I believe amounting to £50,000,000, since the war started. There is no reason why they should not be encouraged, but the Chancellor will not encourage them. Why? Because it does not suit the banking interests, and the Chancellor is dictated to—behind the scenes, he may not admit it here—by them. I want to put to the Committee the whole question of the fallacy of paying interest on your own credit. I understand perfectly well what the position is
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when I go to anybody—say, to my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus), because he certainly understands what I am getting at—and put the following proposition to him: "Here is a grand idea; here I am with the brains—assuming I have them—and here is my plan; I want £100,000 to carry it out. Will you lend it to me?" My hon. Friend looks at me and looks at the plan and if he thinks it is a good proposition he says: "Yes, but, you know, there is a risk here, and I must have some sort of premium; you must pay me 6 per cent." That is a position I understand. But when the Chancellor wants to fill the gap of £1,000,000,000 or £500,000,000, what does he do? He slips round, in effect, to the pundits and authorities in the City: he says, "I have taxed the people white. I have put all sorts of taxation on drink and amusements, and still there is this yawning chasm between what we call sound finance and the position as it is now. What are we to do?" They say, "What do yon want, Mr. Chancellor?" He replies, "I want £500,000,000." They ask, "What is your credit?" and the Chancellor replies, "The whole of England, the fixed assets, the goodwill of the people, their intentions and capabilities, and all the rest of it." What do the City say? They say. "Well, Mr. Chancellor, it seems to us that perhaps that credit is quite good and we will write you up in the book for £500,000,000." But there is a catch in it! "You must pay 2½ or 3 per cent. on it." Where in the name of all that is sensible is the reasonableness of paying interest, on your own credit? It is the people's credit the Chancellor borrows on, not the banks'. All that we do by our system, all that we allow the Chancellor to do, is to rob posterity for ever in order to keep the banks rich.
I come now to the question of bank-created money. I do not know what the figure is—the Chancellor did not deal with it—but as far as I can estimate it the banks have created something in the nature of £1,500,000,000 of new money since the war started. What really happens is that that is created in one way or another through deposit receipts and the rest of it, and sooner or later is converted into long-term loans by the banks. It only costs the banks a couple of nibs and a sheet of paper, but the people are going to pay interest amounting to £30,000,000 a year for ever by having money created for

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them. They are beginning to see through this humbug. When speaking in the country I do my best to explode this humbug of finance. If the right hon. Gentleman did likewise, we might find ourselves joining forces and touring the country together, but I do not think that is likely to happen. I should greatly enjoy a tour with him and seeing all the towns blazoned with posters—"Sir Kingsley Wood on the Humbug of Finance." It is no wonder, when you see how easy it is to make money this way, that you find the banks occupying the best sites and living in the best palaces all over the country as the result of graciously allowing people to borrow at interest on their own credit. It is astonishing, and it is quite time that it was blown sky high. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take some steps which will ensure that we are not going to be kept under this evil money control when the war comes to an end. We have had four years of war, and he has not yet raised a finger to show that we mean to do what the people want, and that is to prevent them falling under the sway of finance again and to make certain that money is to be the servant and not the master of the people in future. I do not think he pays the attention that he ought to some of the things that his own colleagues in the Cabinet have said. The Minister of Labour in 1939, at the Transport Conference, said:
"We must ascertain what are the contributing factors in the present world situation and it will be found that possibly the biggest contributor is this country and not Germany, for one of the most potent causes of world disorder has been our dominant financial policy."
This is what the Minister of Aircraft Production said on a memorable occasion in 1934 at Toronto:
"Perhaps the worst methods of all that are applied nowadays are the methods of financing Government expenditure. Let me take as an example the method of financing Government expenditure during the Great War in Britain. During that period, owing to the energy of the population, we manufactured something like £1,000,000,000 of commodities which we blew away in the destructive war. When we had financed the effort and finished destroying commodities we produced, any ordinary person would think that the community had finished with the question of production and consumption. But not at all. The community then found itself indebted to private individuals for the whole value of these commodities which it had itself produced—in fact for the permission to produce them. It had then forthright to pay
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tribute amounting to £200,000,000 or £300,000,000 a year to a people who had lent the community its own credit. That method, I believe, is one which must be got away from."
We have had most regrettable and reactionary exhibitions from the Lord President of the Council and the Home Secretary as well as the Chancellor on this matter of orthodox finance in a recent Debate, and it is time that all three sat up and took notice and realised the truth. May I call their attention to a very wise statement made by the Prime Minister in "World Crisis"? I have quoted it before, but the Chancellor did not react. I hope it will go further this time. He was talking about the change that came over society at 11 o'clock on nth November, 1918, and we are going to be faced with exactly the same position when this war ends if it ends suddenly unless the right hon. Gentleman takes some action. This is what the Prime Minister wrote:
"A requisition for 500,000 houses would not have seemed more difficult to comply with than those we were in process of executing for 100,000 aeroplanes or 20,000 guns, but a new set of conditions began to rule from 11 o'clock onwards. The money cost which had never been considered by us to be a factor capable of limiting the supply of the armies, asserted a claim in priority from the moment the fighting stopped."
Are we to have any change-over again like that? Are we once again to face the fact that while so far as the war effort goes, money does not count and must not stand in the way of the full and proper use of the available labour and raw material to produce the things we want, in peace money cost comes first? If he allows us to go back to the system that puts money first and does not allow us by an out-of-date financial system to make the best use of our natural resources when the war comes to an end, he is in for a very rough time from the people of the country. When we want to take idle raw material and use idle labour, and put the two together and do something useful, to say that it cannot be done because there is no money is as stupid as if I were to go to the ticket office at King's Cross and ask for a ticket for Scotland and saw a half-empty train in the station waiting to go to Edinburgh and was calmly told by the man in the ticket box, "I am very sorry, but you cannot go because we have run out of tickets." The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed) told us that when the war is over we are

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all going to be so impoverished that we shall have to accept a lower standard of life. He shared the views of Field-Marshal Smuts and the Minister of Aircraft Production that we could not expect a new heaven and earth. I understand what he means, but I do not think he understood what he said. Surely the situation is that in war-time the power of producing all the things we want goes clean up through the roof, and to say that at the end of the war we are not going to be in a better position to produce goods is nonsense. We are going to be in a better position. What will stop us? Certainly the money machine, if the Chancellor lets it have its head. It is essential that he should take thought and action to see that, by the time the war is over we have taken such steps as will enable us to make the maximum use of our production capacity. If he wants to learn more about that, I would refer him to a leading article in "The Times" of 25th March. That is one of the obstructions—the money obstruction—but the rock-bottom obstruction is more important still, and that is the use of the land and raw materials. I do not think this situation has ever been better summed up than in the 10th point of that great letter on a just and lasting peace published in "The Times" of 21st December, 1940, and signed by all the Christian leaders of the country. I hope the right hon. Gentleman has read it. It said:
"It is essential that the natural resources of the earth should be used as God's gift to the whole human race."
Not as God's gift to the British Empire or the United Nations or the Tory Party, but for the benefit of all mankind. I regret that the Chancellor has not seen fit to introduce into the Budget a thoroughgoing tax on site values. Now the cat is out of the bag, and he knows what he ought to do. He says he wants money. There is £500 millions a year waiting for him, all taken tax free by people in return for land ownership not for effort. Let me quote the Prime Minister on the subject. He was once a great supporter of the doctrine, and this is one of the things that he said about the land monopoly:
"He, the landlord, renders no service to the community, he contributes nothing to the general welfare, he contributes nothing even to the process from which his own enrichment is derived. It is monopoly which is the key note and, where monopoly prevails, the greater the
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injury to society the greater the reward of the monopoly will be. See how all this evil process strikes at every form of industrial activities. The municipality wishing for broader streets, better houses, more healthy, decent, scientifically planned towns is made to pay, and is made to pay in exact proportion, or to a very great extent in proportion, as it has exerted itself in the past to make improvements. The more it has improved the town the more it has increased the land value and the more it will have to pay for any land it may wish to acquire. It is not the individual I attack, it is the system. It is not the man who is bad, it is the law that is bad."
The law is bad law as it stands, and it is time we changed it. I am not attacking the landlords but the law. May I quote from the present Lord Chancellor? He said in June, 1914:
"If you tax such a thing as boots, you make boots more expensive, because the more you tax boots the fewer boots will be produced, fewer people can afford to buy them and fewer people will be employed to make them. But if my friend thinks a minute he will see that you can tax land until you are black in the face but you can't make the land any less than it was before."
That is as true to-day as it was then. I have always understood that the great idea in the Chancellor's mind when fixing taxation was to bear in mind four things. First of all, it should bear as lightly as possible upon production; secondly, it should be easily and cheaply collected; thirdly, it should be direct, so as to avoid evasion on the part of the payer and corruption on the part of the officials; fourthly, it should be fair. The Chancellor's method of raising taxes evades all those tenets. If you tax manufacturers, you check manufacturing; if you tax commerce, the effect is to restrict exchange; if you tax improvements, you stop improvements; and if you tax capital, you drive it away. But you can tax land till you are black in the face and it will still be there waiting for you to tax it, and you will take back to the community, for the use of the community, values which the community themselves have created, and that is what we want to see done. What could be fairer than that? The world is in a frightful mess and wants a lead. The right hon. Gentleman looks surprised, but he must be aware that there is a war on. Are we forever to have the feeling that poverty and war are inescapable and inevitable? I do not believe it for a moment. I believe there is a simple economic application of Christian teaching, or that teaching would never have

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been put over. The application must be simple and universal.
There are two things the Chancellor must do. The first is to restore to the people their infringed right to the use of the land and raw materials, and the second is to restore the sovereign right to the people of creating their own money and their own credit. There is talk in the air of Beveridge Reports, increased old age pensions, and the rest of it. All these things are palliatives, and none of them ought to be necessary in a properly organised society. By all means have them meanwhile, but unless we put the root cure in at the bottom we will never get rid of the scurf and scum that come out at the top as a result of the impurity in the blood stream of the body politic. Unless we put in the rock bottom cure, we are behaving like the would-be lunatic at the asylum. In order to test a new arrival for incarceration the authorities at the asylum, to make sure that he is really cracked, lead him into a bathroom where the bath is half full of water and the taps running full bore. The taps are both pouring out water like we pour out wealth, into the pockets of the landlords. The man is given a bucket and told to empty the bath. If he turns the taps off before he starts, they consider him to be curable!
Mr. Campbell: I am grateful to you, Sir Lambert, for allowing me to intervene in this Debate. I intend to be extremely brief, but before dealing with the two points I wish to raise I would like to make two remarks. First, I have been a. Member of the House for a very short time, and I confess that I have found the procedure, forms and usages of the House somewhat difficult to master, so that if I transgress in any way, I trust that you will attribute it to inexperience rather than to any malicious intent. Second, I do not intend to make any reply to the remarkable and extraordinary statements made by the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. J. Beattie) in the Debate yesterday, because the Chairman made clear on two occasions during that speech that he would not allow any reply to it so as to prevent the Debate descending to the level of a faction fight.
In that part of the Chancellor's speech reported in columns 959 to 962 of the
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OFFICIAL REPORT, the right hon. Gentleman used slightly different wording in regard to the various points he raised there. In regard to the expenses or losses that may be involved in changing back from war time to peace-time conditions, he said that this
"must be left over generally until after the war, but I think industry is entitled to an assurance…that steps will be taken."
In the next paragraph, dealing with an example of that, he said:
"This will definitely be allowed now."
In the next paragraph, on another example, he said:
"Expenses should be related to the Excess Profits Tax."
Later on he said that in the case of sand and gravel:
"I propose in the Finance Bill to extend the relief to these cases also."
But in the case of a fall in the value of stocks accruing after the war, all he said was:
"It may be necessary to consider the question."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943; cols. 959 to 962, Vol. 388.]
I do not know whether those words were intended to mean that the right hon. Gentleman is not giving any guarantee that the question will be raised, or whether it was merely an accident that the wording was slightly different in that case. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will make it clear.
Thus Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): We will discuss it on the Finance Bill.
Mr. Campbell: I am not sure whether I am in Order in raising my next point. It is in connection with the announcement made by the Postmaster-General to-day. It has really nothing to do with finance, because, as he explained, the changes he announced were being made to save labour and not to raise revenue. I would like to point out to him that in Northern Ireland we have more labour than we know what to do with. I do not claim that Northern Ireland should be the object of charity—we do not ask for any charity—but I would like to make the point that if the Postmaster-General is going to impair the efficiency of the postal services in Northern Ireland by making these changes, he will not save any valuable commodity, because we

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have more labour than we know what to do with. I have made my two points, and I have not been called to Order. I hope that I may regard that as an indication that I have crossed this bridge without transgressing against the usages of the House.
Mr. Ritson: I am sure that the hon. Member for Antrim (Mr. Campbell) is one of the few Members who has promised to be short and has fulfilled his promise. I cannot follow him to the same extent, but I will try to remember that many Members are waiting who have just as important points to put as we have. I would like to begin where my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Fraser) left off in his able maiden speech. He is to be congratulated on his first speech in this House. I am not one of those old men who are jealous of the young men, because I have gone through the same process myself. It is a fine thing to have here a young, active miner with his determination, courage and character to help us in our work. He left off on the question of dependants' allowances. I am surrounded by a lot of financial pundits whom I am always afraid of. I am more afraid of our intellectuals than of our ignoramuses, because we can check them and cannot check the others. My hon. Friend cited the case of a man who was physically disabled and had to have a housekeeper. I want to raise the case of a young man who is keeping his parents. We had a good deal to say in the Debate on spinsters about sympathy with unmarried women who look after their parents. Let us pay tribute to the young men who have stood by their parents and who could have been married and happy but chose to hang on until their parents had passed on or were in a position to help themselves. They are to be commended for their courage. In the case of the young man I have in mind, his parents are delicate and cannot work although they are under 60. This man has an allowance of £25 a year for having dependant relatives who keep house for him. I am given to understand by some of my friends who are financial experts that he will not get the relief of £50 which has now been made for housekeepers. I feel that if anybody is entitled to the relief of the Chancellor's concession a man in this position is entitled to it.
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The question of deducting Income Tax on weekly payments has been represented again and again until it is almost hackneyed. We were not taxed in the last war as we are in this and far more people have been brought in to pay Income Tax. When they are working in the winter time, especially in shipyards where owing to bad light they are on short time, they have to bear the burden of tax on the wages they had in the prosperous weeks of summertime. I hope that some steps will be taken to enable them to bear this burden more easily. The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), in his racy and breezy speech, said he made an attempt to meet this difficulty but the Treasury turned it down because it would be illegal. The statement that he made was rather startling. I can assure the Government that a great deal of discontent and slackness is due to the fact that men do not appreciate and understand what this Income Tax collection means. I hope that the Treasury will try and see whether they cannot remedy this serious discontent among our people which is holding up production.
Old age pensioners are bearing the brunt of the added taxation on tobacco. I am not worrying about the tobacco smoker of the type we see now—those young girls of about 16. I am not grumbling about the effect of the taxation on them nor on myself as a smoker. I do feel, however, that something should be done for the old man whose only joy is his pipe and who is passing towards the western end of his life. As a policeman I remember men when they were in the cells, even young men, who were so saturated with nicotine that they scraped the lime from the cell walls and, having stolen a match, smoked through the porous lime contented that they were smoking something. I have even known men breaking up old clay pipe heads so that they could feel the taste of nicotine through their lips. Men got to that stage. It has become a fetish with them. But these old men could never smoke in the pit because of the danger of fire. They used to chew a bit while in the pit, and when they came home the only joy they seemed to have, when they had had their food, was to sit down and smoke a pipe. Old men of that type are living to-day in our homes for aged miners, and I think the Chancellor might have tried to ease their position,

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because they are smoking the commonest tobacco.
The Chancellor could have found the money in other ways. One hon. Member said there was an opening to tax the advertisement hoardings we see in the countryside. I think that if the Chancellor were to tax lack of imagination, there would be a fortune for him. Some of those hoardings exhibit the most hideous and unconvincing pictures that I have ever seen. Just imagine any wealthy beer or stout company advertising its name and the benefits of its great works. There is the picture of a seal trying to balance a bottle of stout on its snout. Surely the seal is a wise animal, because it knows that if it were to put the contents inside itself it could not then balance itself, let alone the bottle. There is another advertisement of a huge "steam navvy" with a great clamp descending upon a bottle of Guinness. Think of the waste of energy in trying to pick up a bottle of Guinness with a "steam navvy" which will lift about five tons at a time. I am not joking when I say that the beauty of our countryside is being made hideous through some of the most rotten advertisements I have ever seen, hiding up the beauty that God has given us. I think the Chancellor could have taxed some of those.
I was rather struck by something that was said about the position of sand and gravel companies. I hope the Chancellor will not do much in that direction. We know in Sunderland what sand and gravel have meant to us. We found that sand and gravel were being taken off our beaches, and that as a consequence coast erosion was going on. The sand protects the rocks against the effects of frost and sea water, and it served to protect the cliffs. We found that our cliffs were going and that railways which ran near the edge of the cliffs might be destroyed. The borough was asked to pay £750,000 to put them into order. When we came to inquire why these people were getting sand and gravel we found that it was being done under an Order in Council issued some years before, and because they were working below low water mark we could not get from them a penny towards the rates. They were taking thousands upon thousands of tons of sand and gravel, and that was causing disaster
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further along the coast as well as immediately round the place where they were working, and we could not stop them and we could not charge them a penny in rates, although they were making thousands a year. I hope that when the Chancellor is asked to consider the wasting assets of a sand and gravel company by reason of the demands that are made for sand and gravel during the war he will have regard to the damage that is being done.
I agree with the hon. Member for Ipswich on the subject of land values, but I am not going into that question. What I rose for was to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider the position of those young people who are standing loyally by their parents under trying conditions, with a view to giving them some relief. In these Debates everybody has congratulated the Chancellor upon his Budget speech. It was a wonderful physical feat. I have known him for many years, and the strain never seems to affect his style, or his capacity to make you believe that he is your friend when he is really a political enemy of the most active and able kind. With all our differences of opinion, political or otherwise, even when he annoyed us when we were in the Labour Government—because he is one of the best obstructionists I ever knew—we noticed that he always did it with a smile. He was the devil incarnate in his opposition, and appeared to be the Archangel Gabriel as he sat in front of us. He could vamp Nelson off his column if he had been Lady Hamilton.
Much has been said about the effect of increased taxation upon people with fixed incomes, but I hope the Chancellor will remember the avenues which he could explore in his search for revenue. I am not particularly worrying about the increased duty on beer, but I do worry about the old men who have been loyal to this country and whose sons and daughters and granddaughters have been given to the work of waging this war. They are the men who have built up a great community in the past; they have given us an example of family life and of fellowship and comradeship of which we ought to be proud. At the end of their days we have little to give them in the way of pension, and the only thing that many of them enjoy is a smoke. It may be wrong, it may be disastrous—some people are very

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bigoted in their views about smoking—but there is joy in smoking for those men, and at any rate it is not the cause of any mischief. Therefore, I hope that as far as possible efforts will be made to relieve those old people of the extra burden put upon tobacco.
Captain Duncan: My knowledge of sand and gravel, to which the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Ritson) referred, is largely limited to bunkers in golf courses, and therefore I do not propose to follow him on that point, but he did say something with which I cordially agree when he told us that he was more frightened of the intellectuals among his party than of the ignoramuses, and that goes for the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes).
Mr. Stokes: Would my hon. Friend repeat that? I did not hear it.
Captain Duncan: The hon. Member, having made his speech, went out of the House.
Mr. Stokes: To do what all human beings do, to slake my thirst.
Mr. Ritson: I had not the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) in my mind, because I do not know whether he is an intellectual or not, but he is not a snob.
Captain Duncan: I can only quote what the hon. Member said, and one must assume that he had the hon. Member for Ipswich in mind because he had just made a speech, and nobody could have been so deaf as not to hear it.
I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his Budget, and if I call attention to various points in it, I shall do so not in a spirit of criticism but rather with the idea of offering suggestions. First of all, I wish to call attention to the National Debt, which has never been adequately discussed. My right hon. Friend said that up to now the debt on this war was £8,000,000,000-odd but the total debt, including that for the last war, is, according to the White Paper, £16,860,000,000. If I am right in my rough calculations, we are accumulating debt at the rate of between £2,500,000,000 and £3,000,000,000 a year. If the war goes on for another two years, the total National Debt will then be over £20,000,000,000. That seems to me to be
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a very large figure. I see that the service of the Debt has been increased by £50,000,000 this year, from £325,000,000 to £375,000,000. If that sort of thing goes on, it will make it extremely difficult to carry on the finances of the war upon a healthy basis after the war in such a way as to provide for the manifold necessities of the State, such as the social services. That point should be carefully borne in mind always. It has this effect, that if you are borrowing for destructive purposes such enormous sums, you are thereby losing the capital which you will want after the war. You cannot spend it in blowing up German tanks and still have it at the end of the war to use again. It will have gone, once for all.
Mr. Montague: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggest that, with the increased productive power which this war itself is showing us, it will be impossible to raise an extra £300,000,000 a year in new production after the war?
Captain Duncan: The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed) was asked that question earlier on in this Debate and he answered it, to my satisfaction at any rate.
Mr. G. Griffiths: Give us the answer now.
Captain Duncan: The answer is that it depends upon demand, among other things. The destruction is proceeding at an enormous rate, and will of necessity so proceed, and in the future the very physical ability to obtain new capital will be very much more difficult. That leads me to something which my right hon. Friend said about financing capital expenditure after the war. I suggest that, as far as possible, the Government should not finance new capital expenditure after the war if it can be done in any other way. Take, as an instance, housing. If housing is to be done as it was done before the war, partly by private enterprise and partly by municipal production, I should like the municipal authorities to raise loans from the public rather than for the Government to issue stock to the local authorities. In every case where it is possible, I should like this to be done, rather than that the Government should attempt themselves to find the capital. There are obviously cases where that could not be done, and in those cases only should the Govern-

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ment themselves find the capital, if they can. Naturally, in order to raise money from the public the public must have the money to subscribe.
That leads me to the further suggestion that my right hon. Friend, in considering post-war finance, must also consider a reduction of taxation, because unless you have some covering to lay upon the back of the body politic, which has been stripped of it by two wars, there will not be capital with which to do anything in one way or another.
According to my right hon. Friend's figures, small national savings are now in the region of £2,000,000,000. National Savings Certificates are shown on the White Paper as amounting to over £1,000,000,000. Those certificates may well be, and I believe are, cashable more or less on demand or at a month's notice and they amount to a very large figure. They may well be an embarrassment to the Chancellor of the Exchequer after the war, if there is any larger demand for their encashment. It seems to me—although you cannot do it now because you want the money for Government expenditure and you want to get it from small investors—that there will come a time when we shall want deliberately to discourage investors from investing in Government stocks, National Savings Certificates, 3 per cent. Defence Bonds, etc., and to encourage them to invest in something else. From the national point of view and having regard to thrift, national savings are a very valuable asset, but from the point of view of the Government it may be an embarrassment to have this vast quantity of cashable security, the demand for the encashment of which may come in large measure and at an embarrassing moment.
There are certain obvious directions in which the investor might be encouraged to invest, such as public utilities. The demand for investment may spread very widely and not be in the best interests of the investor unless some form of control is taken over the channels of investment. I remember how a number of farmers in my neighbourhood invested their money after the last war largely in oil and rubber and other gambling counters. Some were Scottish, cautious and wise enough to get out before the slump, while others were not. These
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men caught the gambling fever and lost everything that they had made in the last war. If that condition prevails to any large extent and among the inexperienced, it will cause a very great deal of hardship and tragedy in many lives, particularly among the artisan class who are making a lot of money now but are inexperienced in this sort of investment.
My suggestion is that my right hon. Friend should explore this sort of thing: How are you to change the emphasis on small investments in such a way that the small investor can be assured within limits of a safe investment which is not in Government stock, the Post Office or Defence Bonds and about which the Stock Exchange can reasonably say to investors that if they invest in them they can expect a reasonable return and reasonable security? If there is to be investment freely, as before the war, and everybody is allowed to go gambling in some wild scheme at the end of the war, without knowing anything about it, that will not be in the best interests of the investing public and may cause immense hardship and a serious situation, which ought not to be allowed to arise.
Those are my only two points. I approve of the methods by which my right hon. Friend has raised additional taxation and the relief which he is giving. It is marvellous how the right hon. Gentleman and the country have risen to the enormous heights of present-day taxation. It is true that taxpayers are feeling the pinch, but I am sure that they will pay their taxes like Britons and are prepared to go on doing so until victory is won.
Mr. John Wilmot: I should like in the first instance to express my gratitude to the Chancellor for the very real concessions he has made on certain Income Tax allowances. In my view he has made them in the right place and at the right time, when increasing taxation was pressing unduly hard on some of these particularly hard cases. Particularly do I personally wish to thank him for his extension of the housekeeper allowance, and the dependent relative allowance, for which I pleaded with him last year, and I should like to acknowledge the very liberal spirit in which he has met that claim. I trust he will not think it churlish of me if I just point to two anomalies which remain after he has very

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nearly swept away all the outstanding anomalies in this aspect of Income Tax matters. This anomaly was referred to in the very graceful and effective speech of the new hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Fraser), and I would like, if the Committee will permit, just to point this matter by actual instances.
The housekeeper allowance has now been extended in this Budget to cover any taxpayer maintaining a resident housekeeper to look after a child or children in respect of whom Income Tax reliefs apply. But although it has been extended for that particular purpose to a new class of taxpayers, the purpose remains very narrow, and it is only when the housekeeper is maintained for the purpose of looking after young children that this relief applies. We welcome very much this extension, but there does remain, as my hon. Friend pointed out, the necessity, and very expensive necessity very often, to maintain a housekeeper, or very often to keep from productive employment some other member of the family, to maintain some person for the purpose of looking after an aged relative, very often an aged mother or father. These very often infirm and aged people frequently need as much and even more care than young children.
I had call upon me last evening at my constituency office—I sit for a London Division—a constituent in just this very case. Might I trouble the Commitee with the particulars of a case which has just been missed in this concession, but which has a very real claim to consideration? This young lady, who works very hard in a somewhat humble capacity in a Government Department which used to come under the supervision of my right hon. Friend, has two unmarried sisters, one of whom is wholly engaged in looking after an invalid father, who, after a busy and very useful life, is now afflicted by a most distressing illness which renders him completely incapable. This girl is giving up the whole of her life to looking after this aged parent, and in this family these two girls have to maintain out of their earnings four people, themselves, their aged father, sick, needing expensive attention and special food, and also the other sister, who has to give up the whole of her time to looking after him. These people are really in as much need of relief as those who have to maintain some-
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body to look after children, and I want to ask the Chancellor if he will look into this particular little anomaly which has been left and see whether in the next Finance Bill, or perhaps at an earlier stage, he can include these cases.
This particular type of case could, of course, be met in another way, which, if it were done in that way, would also cover a different type of case no less hard. If the dependent relative allowance was extended to cover all persons who are dependent and who have an income below the prescribed limit, this could be claimed not only for the invalid father but also for the wholly maintained sister, and if the Chancellor should choose to do it in that way it would also bring into account those children who are just outside the scope of the children's relief, who are just starting work but earning so little that they become an extra charge on the family budget rather than a contributing factor, which is the case, I think, of a great many children starting work for the first time.
In this regard there is the particularly hard case of the married woman living apart from her husband, who is not maintained by him and who has the care of children who are just over the Income Tax relief age and who are beginning to work but are not in fact earning enough to keep themselves. Again, I have a constituent case of this character. Here is a woman who for reasons which, when explained to me, seemed entirely adequate and satisfactory, has left her husband and will not return to him, and he therefore neither has a legal obligation nor does he maintain her. She is entirely maintaining herself by her own earnings and is maintaining and has brought up the children. These children are beginning to go to work, and this woman, because of these circumstances, is particularly hard hit under the present Income Tax relief rules. She is treated for Income Tax purposes as a single woman and gets no advantage of the married woman's allowance which the Chancellor very rightly gave in the last Budget. In this particular case, and I imagine in many thousands more, this woman is working in a factory with a lot of other women whose husbands are in the Army, many of whom have no children and pay no Income Tax at all. The married woman's earned relief and the soldier's earning position with regard to Income Tax are such that no Income

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Tax falls upon those women's wages at all, while my constituent, who is earning the same wage, who is earning by the same efforts and out of it is maintaining not only herself but her home and also her family, is having as well to pay quite a heavy charge in Income Tax. It does seem to me that in those circumstances a sense of injustice is very readily understandable. I appeal to the Chancellor to look into that aspect of the matter in the final tidying-up of these anomalies.
I wonder whether I might now detain the Committee for a few minutes longer to emphasise once again, turning to an entirely different matter, what I believe is the reinforced demand, with another year's experience of the necessity of "pay as you earn" Income Tax deduction for weekly wage-earners. This matter had become extremely pressing by last year. The Chancellor realises the case, I think, and he said in his admirable speech on Budget day that he was looking into the question. But when I examined the words he used I was somewhat disappointed as to the possibility of getting this dealt with during the current year. He said:
"No acceptable plan has as yet been forthcoming. There is, however, to be considered in connection with this whole matter the different situation that may arise on the return to peace-time conditions, when a considerable change-over in employment may be expected to take place. My advisers are now engaged in a close examination of this aspect of the matter and the consideration of a current earnings basis for the deduction of tax will not be ruled out of their deliberations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th April, 1943; col. 946, Vol. 388.]
That conveyed to me an impression that he was not likely to do anything about it until the end of the war. If so, it is very regrettable, because already the need has become very pressing indeed. The changing necessities of war production—and they may change vastly as we come nearer to victory—involve consequential changes in the working lives of a large number of working men and women. People who a few months ago were being pressed to the maximum of overtime, working night and day, are now, owing to a shift of production, working normal, or even short time, days. The crux of this matter, the point where the hardship falls, is when a worker who has been working long time changes over to short time, and has to pay long-time tax out of short-time earnings. I
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might give the figures which are involved. Let us take a single worker, earning on ordinary day rates £5 a week. His tax comes to 18s. a week. He goes on overtime and night work, and his normal £5 a week is built up to £8 a week. This single worker upon a weekly wage of £8 is liable to a tax of 44s. a week, instead of the 18s. that he would pay on £5 a week. Consider his position when he comes back to £5. There is not a great margin. Working-class budgets are largely week-to-week budgets. There are always some boots or children's clothes to buy when the earnings are stepped up by overtime. Consider the fellow who has been earning £8 a week, and has been liable to tax of 44s. a week but has been paying only 18s., leaving 26s. a week as a liability which comes upon him later, when he has returned to short time. The family man is in slightly better case, but not very much. A married man who receives £5 a week is liable, assuming that his wife is not earning, to 10s. 6d. tax, but when his wage goes up to £8 a week his tax goes up to 32s. 6d. It is that 32s. 6d. which later on is levied upon his reduced earnings.
I need not carry the matter further, but I would like to deal with the Chancellor's aspect of the matter. He says that there is a case for doing this if it can be done. I think it can be done, because they have already done it in Canada. The Chancellor shakes his head, but I take my information from "The Times" newspaper. Their Canadian correspondent reported on 16th March that this had been done in Canada, and so sure were they of it that the city editor wrote an article on that day, pressing upon the Chancellor the necessity of doing the same thing in this country. Also, I see the President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York has worked out a plan, which he is pressing upon the American Legislature, for the same purpose, of having taxes paid by weekly wage earners as the income is earned. I do not think more need be said about this, but I emphasise that the problem is urgent. It is embittering life in the factories, and I think is militating against full war-time production. Men feel a sense of injustice at having to pay a big tax out of a small wage.
There is another aspect of the matter. The Chancellor has, very rightly, put a bottom limit to the pay packet that has to bear a tax. A married man with two

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children pays no tax, whatever his past or present liability, if his pay packet contains less than £5 a week. Consider the position of a man who has had a long period of overtime, but not long enough for the tax to be deducted from it. He then goes on short time, and his pay falls below £5 a week, he being a married with two children. He leaves this debt for weeks, or it may be months, until he becomes oppressed with the sense of debt and of complete inability to remove that debt. Either he is going to feel a sense of frustration because he cannot pay his debt—and that is what the most honourable man will feel—or else he will feel that an unliquidated debt is a thing he need not worry about. That is not a good frame of mind to foster. If people regard debts to the Exchequer in that way, they will soon come to regard debts to other people in that way. The Chancellor admits that when we come to post-war conditions there will be urgent need; but there is urgent need now. Vast changes have taken place in industry, and as those changes increase the necessity for a pay-as-you-earn policy increases.
I would like to say one word yet again about the position arising from these increased taxes on luxuries. I think they are wholly good, with one exception, which has been already mentioned in various parts of the House. Those who are living on very low fixed incomes, and who by no exertions of their own can increase those incomes, are in a position in which the Committee would not wish them to be put. Particularly hard is the case of the old age pensioners, but there are others. I would ask the Chancellor, if he cannot find any way of mitigating the tax for this particular class of persons, to consider either an increase in the basic old age pension or an extension of the principle of disregard for certain earnings. The principle of supplementary pensions has greatly eased the old age pensioner's lot, but there are a large number of people who just escape receiving the supplementary, because of children's allowances or because of some past savings. I would ask the Chancellor, therefore, to extend the principle of disregard in dealing with supplementary pensions.
Might I thank the Chancellor, once again, for the lucid presentation of his Budget? He has done more than any other Chancellor in my time to speak the
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language of the ordinary man in financial matters. In doing that he has helped very much indeed the very necessary work of enabling ordinary people to understand financial problems. We also owe him a debt for those remarkable and most informative White Papers which he has laid this year. We have not had the time really to learn all that is in them, but we have already learned very much, and it is a very good thing that we are using these opportunities for getting more and more information and learning more and more about the real basis of our financial structure. We all of us had and still have very much to learn.
I am sorry that one hon. Member Who preceded me should have sought to spread misunderstanding about certain phrases that were used by my right hon. Friend. We know what he meant to say, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has helped us to understand the real truth of what he meant to say. That was, that when we come to the essential question when every individual and every community has to ask itself from time to time. "Can we afford it?" the test of whether we can afford it is to be found in this. Have we the capacity and the ability to obtain certain raw materials and, by our labour, to fashion those materials into the things that We need to wear and to eat and to make a civilised life? If we can do those things, then we can afford it. If we cannot do those things, then we cannot afford it. That is the test. The symbols referred to were the simplest means of expressing the result of that test. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has helped us to understand that, and he has gone through the real things that the account books record. They are only meaningless symbols if they are divorced from the things they represent. They have in our time been so divorced. We did once tell ourselves that we could not afford clothes, that we had wool that we could not use and looms that were idle and men who were unemployed. We did say once that we could not afford houses when we could have made the bricks, and we had the men who could have made them into houses. I hope that we shall not say that again, and I thank the Chancellor for helping us to understand and to avoid that fundamental error.
Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: I would like, first of all, to say

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how much I agree with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Kennington (Mr. Wilmot) in regard to the question of "Pay as you go," in connection with Income Tax. He put the case very fluently and at some length, and it is not at all necessary for me to deal with it in more than a sentence or two. The point he makes—and it has been made by other speakers—regarding the situation which may arise at the end of the war is one which the Treasury will have very seriously to consider. It is obvious that there will be hardships on people who may, by the removal of overtime earnings, suddenly be called upon to pay considerable sums for which they have been unable, under the conditions under which they live, to make suitable provision. There is one point that I would put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do it with some diffidence, because my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary in his speech yesterday made an appeal to the Committee not to take this matter too far, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already said it was to be under consideration. I would like to emphasize what my hon. Friend opposite said, that the, Chancellor's statement appeared to refer to post-war conditions, and I agree with him that that is too late. Although I do not want to carry it too far, the Chancellor of the Exchequer might seriously consider the setting up of a Committee, on which the workers themselves would be represented, to try to come to a settlement on what is a very difficult problem. There is no question that there are difficulties in a scheme of this kind, but I believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he could get the advice and good will of those concerned, might find there are ways and means of doing it.
I feel a little shy about joining in this chorus of praise which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had to endure for the last two days. He has a very cheery countenance at any time, and as I have watched him in the last two days his cheeks have grown a little pinker as every speech has taken place, till he must have an extraordinary feeling of diffidence and shyness when he gets up to reply. Apart from the very delightful things that have been said—and no doubt he will say it will take him some time to thank those who thanked him, one after another, in the course of this Debate—I do not want
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for a moment to suggest that I do not share the admiration of the Committee for the physical and mental effort he put forward in bringing the Budget before us and for the very clear statement, not only in this Committee, but published in the White Paper. The proposals to raise £100,000,000 by taxing unnecessary luxuries, but luxuries in which most of us indulge, are obviously quite sound, although I am bound to say that the question of how we raise or whether we raise £100,000,000 in this year, when we are dealing with some £6,000,000,000 a year, seems to be very far away from realities. I do not suggest that it is not sound. It is only questionable when you get to this one point, Is it advisable in the middle of the war to stop laying further burdens on the people? That is the question. I do not mean to say that no one should drink beer or whisky or necessarily have a smoke. People of all classes are being deprived not only of luxuries but of what might be described as luxuries which are almost necessary to-day. A great many people are suffering, and especially the poor.
When you consider this further taxation the only criticism one can possibly make about it is, that there is a point at which it is not advisable in the war to make the burden too heavy. We are very apt to forget that although certain classes of the community are earning high wages and certain manufacturers and others no doubt are earning very good profits and are paying Excess Profits Tax, we have to face the fact that there is a large section of the population on very small incomes, who are not better off through the war but are, in fact, worse off and are suffering very badly indeed. Whether we raise £100,000,000 this way or not is not the really important matter. The real matter for consideration is the increasing debt and its consequences, if any, in the post-war years. I was very careful to say "If any." I hope to show that it is possible—and I agree to some extent with those who have spoken before on the matter—that it will not have a crippling effect upon us at all but at the same time we have to consider it. In the very admirably expressed figures of my hon. Friend yesterday we take pride in raising £8,000,000 a day by taxation out of the £16,000,000 we are spending, and that is a matter for congratulation.

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But it is also a matter of considerable perturbation and anxiety. Our debt, truly, is to ourselves, but the service of that debt in the post-war years will mean not only the redistribution of income, on a very big scale, which may be good but will also mean a handicap, unless we are very careful, to our export trade, because we are a country which will have to import many millions of pounds' worth of food. We have to consider that aspect, and particularly we have to consider what the effect will be on the social conditions of this country after the war. The debt, of course, is an internal debt; theoretically, it is to ourselves; it is merely a change of ownership, but there is grave danger in people holding the belief that because we are spending £16,000,000 a day on the war, it does not matter what we spend on other things. That sort of idea is fatal. Let us understand that the people of this country are paying for the war in part by definite sacrifices, not only by giving up luxuries, but by giving up purchases of all kinds, by living on a lower standard of life and by wearing old clothes, for example. They are definitely paying, and it is as well that we should understand they are paying. This question of £16,000,000 a day cannot be dismissed lightly. It must not be said that because we are spending this sum on the war there is nothing to prevent us from spending another £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 or, in fact, half-a-dozen millions on this or that. It is very stupid to keep on talking about finance meaning nothing. It is equally proper to keep finance in its place and not let it be master of the situation. But it is not wise that people should have the idea that the war can be paid for by a large number of tokens or symbols.
Mr. Stokes: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that wars have never been paid for financially?
Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: I am afraid that that is so and has always been so in history, but all the same there is danger in laying a greater burden than necessary on posterity. One thing the Budget has brought out, particularly to the thinking person, is the debt we owe to other people. What sort of taxation the Chancellor would have suggested if he had not had this contribution from Canada I do not
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know, but I think it is well that we should emphasise the tremendous debt we owe to Canada in that connection. The burden we are bearing is undoubtedly heavy, and the results upon our position after the war may be serious. My own honest belief is, however, that if we face the position properly, if we realise that in future the whole basis of our prosperity will be a question of consumption and not of production, we shall be able to overcome that difficulty and carry the debt.
But we must not get away from the idea that to carry it we shall have to have a prosperity and an efficiency such as we have not seen in this country so far. Although the war has in certain directions improved the efficiency of industry—and it is bound to do so—we have a lot of leeway to make up. In some directions there has been an improvement in efficiency and in others efficiency has been lessened. I think the promises of the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding post-war conditions are not generous enough in the case of industries such as those which have been concentrated. They are spending large sums of money in keeping their factories in existence, and they are earning nothing. There have been great hardships, and I do not know to what extent they can be mitigated by any action which the Government have promised at the present time. The taxation proposals of the Budget are perfectly sound so far as they go. I do not think they will very much affect the position in which the country will find itself, and I believe we shall be able to carry the burden of debt in the end if we work in the spirit of promoting consumption. There is no doubt, however, that the Government will have to have their plans in order before the end of the war if we are to get industry on its feet again when hostilities cease.
Mr. A. Edwards: I would like to say a word at the opening of my speech on a matter which was raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Ward-law-Milne) and another Member, namely, the references to symbols, which seemed to cause some amusement. I do not think there is anything amusing in the Prime Minister taking a statement from a recent speech of my right hon. Friend the Member

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for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) and broadcasting it to the world, as he did recently.
Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: I was not referring to that particular remark; I was referring to the sort of speeches outside which have said that money did not matter.
Mr. Edwards: Well, a previous speaker on this side of the House referred to it, and it caused a considerable amount of amusement on the Treasury Bench. The Prime Minister has not shown that standard of conduct he usually shows, and I think he should come to the House and apologise. It will be a disgraceful thing if what he said is allowed to go uncorrected. There was not the slightest justification for the Prime Minister taking the statement from the context of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Wake-field said, which, as everybody knows, was absolutely right. We are dealing with symbols. I think the Prime Minister did a disservice to this House, and I hope he will take an early opportunity to offer some kind of apology or explanation.
Mr. Stokes: I will bet my hon. Friend a "fiver" that the Prime Minister will not.
Mr. Edwards: I want to pass on to the references which have been made about taking Income Tax from current earnings. Really the matter is so simple that the Treasury cannot believe it is practicable. The complicated minds of the Treasury could not see a simple thing, so they let it pass. I do not believe it is difficult to make a simple arrangement whereby a man can have his taxation deducted from his weekly earnings. Reference, too, has been made about unnecessary spending, and I have not much feeling on that matter. It was, however, seriously suggested that those who do not smoke or drink should pay some equivalent cost towards the war. Well, I have been a lifelong abstainer and non-smoker, and if I make no demand on the services of men who, at the risk of their lives, bring materials here from abroad, and on labour and time in this country, I do not see why I should also pay tax in addition.
Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: The hon. Member has not made a sacrifice.
Mr. Edwards: In saying what I have said, I would like to point out that I have never associated myself with temperance reform, for the simple reason that most temperance reformers I have known would drive me to drink. I did not quite follow the hon. Member for Kidderminster when he said that our debt was an internal debt. I cannot see that if will make the slightest difference to our export trade. The people who hold the bogy of export trade before us forget one thing—that after the war we shall be the best customer in the world and be the best market. Other countries will be searching for markets and they will not be able to sell goods to us without taking goods from us. The new Keynes Plan will perhaps help us to cover up the time lag, but ultimately there will have to be an exchange of commodities.
Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: Our export trade is normally a competitive trade, and therefore, if we are not going to take cognisance of the conditions of the capital debt we have incurred, it is clear we shall have to have an international agreement to keep our prices and our cost of living at a level with others.
Mr. Edwards: That is a subject which perhaps we can go into at a more appropriate time. Nor do I see that the debt will lead to a very considerable redistribution of wealth. That also is a fallacy which I hope we can go into on some other occasion. There is one thing that always, strikes me about the payment of the debt. In business, if an amount is spent that has been completely wasted, it is shown by a writing down of assets in the balance-sheet. Having wasted this £8,000,000 or £10,000,000 there is no writing down of assets in anybody's balance-sheet, and in fact, the most prosperous people will show an increase in their assets. If the Chancellor brings out a national balance-sheet, as he has partly promised to do, we shall see just who makes the sacrifice if we see where the assets are written down. As a matter of fact, our capacity to produce will be infinitely greater at the end of the war than it was at the beginning. In discussing this matter nobody has taken into consideration the enormous progress there has been in scientific research which, will reduce costs and increase potential production enormously. I do not see any difficulty in this matter, and the only thing

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I wish is that there was more serious thinking about planning after the war.
I come now to a matter which affects my own constituency. In the past my constituency has had to exist almost entirely on iron and steel. After the last war it went through a most distressing period. No provision had been made for renewing plant which was completely worn out, and about 90 per cent. of the blast furnace equipment was absolute junk. When the question was put why they did not bring it up to date, they said they just did not have the money. Let me say here that I do not feel that the making of a profit in itself is necessarily harmful. I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government are going to give us a socialised State, so we may as well face up to a considerable period under the present conditions. Hon. Members on this side will have to face up to the realities of the industrial and financial system that we have and make the best of it for some considerable time. The code under which we operate regarding the writing down of assets and depreciation allowances in regard to Income Tax was made about 100 years ago, when Income Tax was 7d. in the £. Those of us who have to run businesses know perfectly well that we always have considerable expenditure which is not allowed as expenditure by the Income Tax authorities. This did not matter very much when Income Tax was only 7d. in the £, or 1s. 8d. in the £, which was the highest figure to which it rose before the last war, but it means a great deal when Income Tax is 10s. in the £ and when there is an Excess Profits Tax of 100 per cent.
This matter very much concerns the industry which I represent, because we shall find ourselves in a very serious position. The Advisory Committee which fixes the prices has been very rigid and sometimes not altogether fair in the prices it has allowed. Some steel enterprises will find themselves in a very serious position if this expenditure is not allowed. I am concerned that the Chancellor should make an adequate allowance for replenishing plant. He made some reference to this in his speech, but he was not altogether clear. The obsolescence provision takes care of equipment when it is definitely replaced, but I would like it to go further and give the obsolescence
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allowance when the plant ceases to function, without insisting on its being replaced. The same remark applies to deferred repairs, about which the Chancellor was more explicit; I understand he intends to deal with them.
There are one or two other minor points to which I want to refer. The Treasury always seem to lose sight of the vital factor in these matters. I understand that, in regard to the Post Office, there are to be increased charges for certain services, including trunk calls. Surely, the vast majority of trunk calls are made by business people who charge them up as a cost which the Chancellor has to pay in the end. Is it worth while making changes of that kind, which mean an immense amount of work for somebody in the Departments, and which lead to no increased collection by the Chancellor? It took me two years of argument to persuade the Chancellor to take the import duties off machine tools that were being brought from America to this country.
Mr. Assheton: May I point out to the hon. Member that the Postmaster-General said that the object was not to raise increased revenue but to make a saving in man-power?
Mr. Edwards: I do not see how that will be done, because the change will mean an immense amount of work in the Departments. If there is a decreased use of telephones as far as business is concerned, it will mean cutting out a labour-saving device. I have already suggested that one of the things that should be done in regard to immediate post-war development is the provision of about £100,000,000 for the development of telephones so that each town can be dialled instead of each exchange. I think it is a great mistake to make the telephone more difficult or more expensive.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) dealt very usefully with the War Savings Campaign. It really is disgraceful that we should continue to delude people about this, and that dozens of Members of the House should spend their week-ends in the country persuading people that they are in some way helping the war effort and the production of munitions of war by their savings. It is ridiculous to say that people are disloyal if they hoard bank notes in old stockings. It does

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not make sense. The only effect of hoarding bank notes in that way is to lend them to the Chancellor free of all interest. What help would it be if they put the bank notes into War Savings Certificates and got 2½ per cent. interest?
Mr. Assheton: There is one other object, and it is that if people have a lot of money in their pockets they are much more likely to spend it.
Mr. Woodburn: I agree with some of the statements my hon. Friend is making about war savings generally, but in regard to the hoarding of notes, when the war ends and people no longer feel the necessity to hoard notes, is there not a great danger that all this hidden money will suddenly come on to the market and create a most dangerous inflation? Is it not of advantage that money should be controlled and regulated in some way by a public authority?
Mr. Edwards: I agree that there is a little danger there, but, with price controls, it does not matter. You should stop using materials or labour in producing things not wanted for the war. That is the way to deal with the inflation danger. The Chancellor has deliberately followed methods of inflation. He has increased steel prices by 50 per cent. If you get the same amount of material for more money, that is inflation, and he has done that with a good many commodities. I am afraid that some of my friends on this side have been guilty of this false talking to people up and down the country. They have collected £500,000 for aid to Russia and China. No one who thinks the matter over can deny that Russia and China will not get a pennyworth of goods.
The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid that must be outside the boundary.
Mr. Edwards: I was only going to use it as an illustration. They are getting under Lend-Lease all that they can possibly get.
Mr. Woodburn: On a point of Order. May I suggest that it is in Order in so far as it is a very effective way of reducing the purchasing power of the community, which is part of the Chancellor's activities?
The Deputy-Chairman: I think that is a very ingenious argument, but it will equally apply to every form of subscription that you could imagine. I must rule subscriptions of that sort out of Order.
Mr. Edwards: Had that not been collected from the pockets of the working people, the Chancellor would have had to find £500,000 more this week.
There is only one other thing I should like to say, a minor thing but an important matter of principle. The Government have recently found a considerable amount of money for taking over certain factories, in one case £750,000. We took it over because the directors had failed in their job. The Chancellor allows compensation to be paid to these directors, a sum not subject to tax. If a man loses his job to-day, he does not get any compensation. In some cases if a director loses his job for some reason he is paid compensation for loss of office. The "Financial World," referring to the matter, said it seemed as improper to assess for Income Tax compensation paid for loss of employment to a director as it would be to a worker who got compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act. It is no comparison at all. The chairman in the case that I refer to will draw as much money as though he had been paid his full salary of £10,000 a year until he reached the age of 103. It seems to me that compensation for loss of office should be taxed in the same way as any other income, and I think the Chancellor is allowing a serious mistake to pass un-corrected.
I think he should stop the only serious loophole left for profiteers or racketeers. There are people who are making very considerable sums of money, and there is only one way they can do it, and that is by capital profits. I think the Chancellor would do well to say that any capital profits for the duration of the war and a period after shall be subject not only to Income Tax but to Excess Profits Tax. Very large profits are being made, and it is a most disgraceful thing. I should like to have seen it dealt with at the beginning of the war, but it is not too late to make a start now.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: We are discussing the largest Budget in our history, a Budget which might have been expected to earn the Chancellor of the Ex-

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chequer a shower of brickbats but, instead, he has earned a number of bouquets sufficient to gratify the heart of a prima donna. If in laying my modest violets at his feet, I do no more than say I congratulate him, it is simply from a desire not to detain the Committee. The hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) in a very interesting and constructive speech, referred to the Budget as a milestone, and I think there are Members on this side who would accept that description, remembering that a milestone represents not the terminus of a journey but a stage upon it, and one at which the traveller does not as a rule spend much time. It seems to me that a certain number of broad generalities can be drawn from the discussion which has ranged over two days and has produced so many interesting and attractive speeches. The first is that we are gradually passing through a transitional stage between two different conceptions of what our Budget is. It still is in form a statement of the accounts of the Treasury—the ordinary expenditure and revenue of the year—but it is gradually developing into an annual review of our whole economic life and resources.
We are told we must not use the phrase "national balance-sheet" because it contains perhaps some misleading associations, but whether the phrase is just or unjust, I believe the idea underlying it is perfectly sound and that the conception of national finance which it implies is gradually receiving recognition. The outward and visible signs of that are the White Papers which accompany the little blue sheet on Budget day and the difference in the amount of time allotted in the Budget speech to the economic circumstances of the country compared with that which is confined to the narrow limits of the financial statement. I believe the process should confine, because I think it will lead in the end to a much wiser view of our economic policy. It has been dictated, not by any abstract conception of economic theory, but by the necessary facts of the case. The very size of the modern Budget renders it a tremendous instrument of national policy which must bear a direct relationship to our whole economic prosperity. We can no longer regard national finance as something which may be set on one side while the economic life of the country goes on unaffected by it on the other side.
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The second broad generalisation which it occurs to me that we can make as a result of this discussion is that our conception of the purpose of taxation is altered. It has been in the past a mere means of acquiring revenue. It is no longer that, but has become, as one hon. Member on this side said, an instrument of national policy, and that in two ways. In the first place, it is a redistribution of national income. Listening yesterday to the eloquent speech of the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), urging the old arguments so well and so movingly, one could not help thinking that one was listening to one of the great monuments of the gallant and glorious past. The revolution which the hon. Gentleman has worked for so laboriously and so well for so many years is taking place in front of his eyes, and in his extreme old age he does not see that it is happening. He goes on making the same old speeches as if the rich and powerful remained unassailed in their original stronghold. The revolution is taking place, and we cannot stop it. What we have to consider is what implications are involved by that rather important fact. We are not afraid of redistributing the national income. We have done it during the war, and the whole lesson of history is that, although we might desire to reverse the process when peace comes, it will be quite impossible to do it. These changes may have been introduced in an emergency, but they have come to stay, and we cannot prevent them from continuing.
That leads me to the third generalisation I want to make. If we are revising our conception of national finance and our conception of national taxation, we have also to revise our conception of national expenditure. I believe that I shall not be accused of patronising when I say that we can congratulate hon. Members on doing that, especially some hon. Members on the opposite side of the Committee. We have passed out of the phase of national expenditure when as each burden is imposed it may be demanded as a concession by the rich to the poor. The fact of the matter is that national expenditure nowadays is a question for the poor to decide as to how they spend their own money, because that is where it is coming from. The hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) referred yesterday to certain fortunes that are left at decease. There is no doubt that certain large capital sums

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remain in private hands, but there is no one who sees what is going on in society who does not realise that that is coming very rapidly to an end. Those people are, in fact, living on capital, and perhaps it is as well that the change which is coming and is happening all the time should happen in that way. It would be much more kindly and more in accordance with the spirit of this nation. The fact of the matter is, however, that further burdens in expenditure are being borne and will be borne by the poor. It is known by hon. Members opposite as well as by hon. Members on this side that there is no major Measure of social policy at the present time which costs money that does not bear directly on the working classes of the country when it is brought into effect. I do not think that that should deter them for a moment, so long as they realise that it is their money and their responsibility for what is being done.
That leads me to the last thing I want to say. These new conceptions of national finance have led, during the course of the last two or three days, to a discussion of what is meant by the question whether we can afford expenditure on the scale on which we are engaged at the moment. It is true that we must revise our conception of what is meant by affording a thing. We can no longer regard expenditure in the light of the question, which I have heard asked on my side of the Committee sometimes, as to whether there is money in the till. There is no till for the purpose of the question, and money does not mean what we used to think it did. At the same time, we must not think of money as "sounding brass" and "a tinkling cymbal." A symbol it most certainly is, but a meaningless symbol it most certainly is not. In the hands of one individual it is a symbol of work that has been done. In the hands of another it is promise of work that will be done. In the hands of a third it is a reflex of work which is being done. In the hands of a nation money reflects a practical reality. It reflects, as was said by the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Wilmot), the productive capacity of the country, the skill of its workers, the raw materials over which it has command and the prosperity of its agriculture. In one sense we can say that money, like other material things, is meaningless, but that in the long run as in all human affairs, where there
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are will and faith there is a way. But we cannot afford to ignore the practical consideration.
There is one practical consideration which I thought the hon. Member for Kennington forgot. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) did refer to the importance of the export trade. The hon. Member for Kennington said that all that money meant was that it gave us a capacity to obtain raw materials and turn them into things we can use. That is not, in my view, the only question before the country. There are certain things that we can produce and use for ourselves. There are food and the whole of the produce of this country which can be used by the inhabitants of it. We cannot produce enough food for ourselves, however. Therefore in the long run the prosperity of our finances and the future progress of our social life depend upon our ability to produce that which other people can use outside this country. That leads me to my last remark. National finance has developed from a mere statement of the accounts of the Government into a review of our national prosperity, but national finance itself is gradually giving way to a new conception, because none of our problems, economic or other, can be solved on a purely national basis.
Mr. Bartle Bull: The Chancellor has received a lot of compliments, and I will not therefore say any more on that line. I would like to make a point which I do not think has been made about the 100 per cent. tax on jewels and furs. I have heard that there is a certain black market in furs and that some are sold off the backs of women. I do not know whether that is true, but if it is, I hope that it will be possible to do something to stop it. With regard to the 100 per cent. tax on jewellery, I would like to suggest that engagement and wedding rings up to a certain value should be exempted from the increased tax. I do not know how that would work out, but the Chancellor is an able man, he has been at the job a long time, he is well paid, and it is for him to work it out. I suggest that there must be some way of doing this. There are people in all walks of life who will get married. I remember when I was a pupil in chambers to a well-known K.C. He used to say that when persons get married for the first time you cannot

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advise them, you cannot stop them—he may be young and she may be young—but that when a man or woman got married a second time, that was the time to look out, and it was their own fault. I am not expressing any opinion, and I am not concerned with them, but I think the Chancellor could devise some way of allowing people who are getting married for the first time to buy an engagement ring and a wedding ring without incurring this additional charge.
I shall be very brief, but there is one other point I want to make. The Chancellor said in his Budget speech that in order to balance the Budget he needs another £100,000,000. To a man like him that cannot seem a great deal of money. But it is a certain amount, and to obtain it he has proposed certain taxes on non-essential goods. I should like to ask whether he wants the public to buy these non-essential goods or would prefer them to save the £100,000,000. I am only hoping and presuming at the same time that he does not mean the brewing trade to become a forgotten industry. I hope he is bearing that small point in mind. The Chancellor and the Financial Secretary are both able men, and I have no doubt that if they bend their minds to this problem a little, they will be able to think it out. The Chancellor, charming man that he may be, has been generally praised throughout these Debates. For a year I was Parliamentary Private Secretary to my late chief when he was Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and I should like to add a word of praise for the Financial Secretary. I remember how much we did in my time to make life possible for the Chancellor, and therefore I think the Financial Secretary should also have a word of praise. Finally, I sincerely hope those two extremely able Members will be able to work out some way by which people who will, as I say, get married once will be able to buy once an engagement ring and a wedding ring without having to pay this increased taxation on those rings.
Mr. Kendall: There are only two points to which I wish to refer. One is a reference made by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir L. Albery) to my Company and E.P.T. The whole of the organisation which I control will be gratified at the remarks which that distinguished member of the Public Accounts
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Committee has made before the country, and I will not carry that matter further.
I come to the taxation on tobacco. Everybody who is working to-day in this country can easily afford the additional tax on tobacco. It does not inflict any hardship upon them at all, and the consumption will not decrease because of this additional taxation. If it had been the wish of the Chancellor to reduce the amount of tobacco consumed, I should have thought it would have been far better to ration tobacco to everyone. It is a simple fact that only those who are on pension will suffer from this additional taxation. Every working man and woman in industry that I know of—and in my own organisation there are something like 8,000—can afford this additional tax on cigarettes and tobacco, but the old age pensioners in my constituency cannot afford it, and I hope that when the Chancellor comes to answer some of the questions that have been put to him he will deal with the problem of how these old people can get tobacco, which is one of their small comforts, without having to pay the additional tax. The amount of money the Chancellor will get from this additional tobacco tax will be very small indeed compared with the total revenue. I ask him on behalf of old age pensioners to do something, either by way of issuing coupons or by the issue of something at the post offices where they get their old age pension, which will enable them to get relief from this additional burden. It should not be too hard a task, and I do not think we are asking too much in putting that point to the Chancellor.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) was not able to slake his thirst adequately—Oh, here he is. I am glad the hon. Member for Ipswich has been able to slake his thirst twice since he addressed the Committee, because it is a pleasure to demonstrate to him the personal affection I have for him and at the same time the utter contempt I have for his financial theories. The hon. Member always interests us, because he has got an innate charm which nothing, not even his queer and odd conceptions of finance, can destroy. He has flamboyant phraseology, he has a reckless enthusiasm, which commend him to the Members of the Committee as a whole, and I hope

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he will not misunderstand me when I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that now that he is putting an increased tax upon entertainments, he might extend that tax to the House of Commons in the case of the speeches of the hon. Member for Ipswich.
I will leave that matter for the moment and deal with the Chancellor himself in his efforts to solve a not very difficult problem, and that is to finish emptying the pockets of the general public, and I would pay him a tribute for his pertinacity in trying to prevent us from spending anything on anything and his urbanity in making us agree that we like it. That was a great achievement. Incidentally, I must pay a tribute to the Chancellor upon his Budget speech. Everyone has done it, and I should fail in my duty if I did not fall in with the general tendency, but I do pay a genuine tribute of envy at his resilience in being able, after his magnificent speech of nearly 2¼ hours here, to go to the microphone and talk to the public without any signs of fatigue or lack of persuasiveness.
I have only one point of criticism to make, because I have a great regard for my right hon. Friend and, indeed, a measure of affection for him, but I do think that his method of raising this comparatively trifling sum of £100,000,000—for it is trifling in comparison with the £6,000,000,000 Budget—suffers from the grave fault which has been expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) and many other Members. It tends to ignore the position of those with fixed incomes and old age pensioners. I hate stressing this factor, which is the only weakness in an otherwise perfect Budget. The Tobacco Duty affects many people who have no luxuries and few comforts and who deserve to receive more consideration than the Chancellor has shown for them in this Budget. I know that the Chancellor must find this £100,000,000, and obviously must find it from the pockets of those who are best able to pay it. A tax such as I once suggested before to him, of £1 per year per bicycle would yield, according to my information, about £12,000,000 a year, and it would have prevented the necessity to put this substantial increase on tobacco.
Mr. Kirkwood: It would be a tax on the workers.
Sir T. Moore: It would amount to one halfpenny a day per user, and if that is not a contribution which anyone could and would afford towards the well-being and safety of this country, I completely misunderstand my fellow citizens. I shall not go into the question of symbols, which evidently touches some people very tenderly, but I remember that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Ayrshire (Sir Charles MacAndrew) said that he would not mind relieving the right hon. Member of Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) of a few meaningless symbols if he had any of them in his pocket. I sympathise with the right hon. Member for Wakefield in his characterisation of pounds, shillings and pence. The sum of £6,000,000,000 means nothing to me, and yet it is made up of these meaningless symbols.
Budget Debates offer us an opportunity of suggesting certain methods by which the Chancellor can eliminate national waste and accumulate national income where possible. I am not dealing now with the prevention of spending, because my right hon. Friend has a good team round him for that purpose, the Minister of Food, the President of the Board of Trade and so on. They all assist us to withstand the attractions of spending money in these days, and therefore that point does not arise. I made a suggestion, however, to my right hon. Friend on which he gave me no answer, and I would like to make it again. It is that all purchases up to £1 in retail shops should be paid for in cash. The answer which he gave me was that the suggestion was not practicable; yet at every railway station you find people paying for railway tickets in cash. Why should that method not be extended from the buying of railway tickets to making purchases in retail shops? If my right hon. Friend went to any retail shop or store, he would soon become convinced that the adoption of my suggestion would mean an enormous saving in labour, time and in paper for invoices and accounts alone. I think it would be well worth trying.
No doubt the chief matter which is worrying and puzzling us all in this Budget discussion is how we are to find the money to pay the interest on our internal loans at the end of the war, and

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how we are to start our trade again and secure the overwhelming prosperity to which some hon. Members have referred, if we are to have a colossal Debt of something like £16,000,000,000. This Debt will mean an expenditure of between £500,000,000 and £600,000,000 a year in interest. Where can we find that money, and how are we to set about getting it? That is one of the matters for which Sir William Beveridge took some responsibility, because he laid down further expenditure that he would like to see us incur in addition to the cost of the war. He left the matter like that. Neither Sir William Beveridge, his supporters nor his critics have tried to analyse the repercussions which his scheme and all other schemes must have. After the first two or three years when the war is finished, there is no doubt, so far as I can see, that owing to the immense devastation created throughout the world, there will be a very exhaustive home market to be satisfied, but it will be satisfied after two or three years at the very outside, and then we shall have to enter into the field of severe international competition. There we shall come against the insoluble problem of standards of living. How are we to reconcile the standards of living, say of the handful of rice of the Japanese workman with the anticipated roast beef of the British workman? If we cannot solve that problem, our hopes of permanent peace after the war are doomed.
I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there is a possible solution, at any rate of a temporary character, which might extend to a period of 20 years or even 40 years after the war, if the right hon. Gentleman and the War Cabinet are courageous enough to give a lead to this country to adopt it. It seems to me that the only way is that the world must be zoned into areas, each with approximately the same standards of living. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs referred to this matter at a public meeting some time ago, but he talked about regionalising. I prefer the word "zoning." When you talk about zones of countries of approximately equivalent standards of living there flash almost immediately to your mind definite types of zone. There are the British Empire, the Americas, Asia, the Scandinavian countries and the Latin countries. You could group those countries within their zones, and arrange complementary free
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trade traffic within the zones and tariffs without the zones. Naturally we should not find certain raw materials in all zones, because no country produces all that it requires, and so we come to the unzoned areas—the Colonies. Colonies must remain for development and administration under their present——
The Chairman (Major Milner): The hon. and gallant Member is going far beyond the confines of this Debate.
Sir T. Moore: I agree that I am doing so, but it is somewhat difficult to stop short at a certain point when developing an argument to show how we are to raise money in a competitive world to pay for what we are now spending. I was only trying to suggest a method by which this problem might be solved. However, in view of my undertaking, and of the fact that we have just before us the very welcome speech of my hon. Friend on the Front Bench opposite the Government, and also a speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who will no doubt relieve us of a number of doubts created by his original speech, I will protect myself from breaking any further Rules of Order by resuming my seat.
Mr. David Grenfell: I was elected to the House of Commons nearly 21 years ago and I have listened to every Budget speech since with the exception of one. I will say that taking responsibility for delivering the Budget statement on behalf of the Government is a task which Chancellors have always regarded with trepidation and sometimes with extreme anxiety, but on this occasion the Chancellor came to the House in his usual modest manner and made a statement that will be epoch-making in the history of the government of this country. The right hon. Gentleman has earned the encomiums that have been passed upon his speech, and he wears the congratulations which are due to him with the modesty that habitually belongs to him. I, too, would like to say something about the enormous increase in the magnitude of Budgets. I remember when a £200,000,000 Budget was regarded as an impossible thing. Then, in the course of my service in this House I have seen the figure climb up to £1,000,000,000. A £1,000,000,000 Budget was regarded as a catastrophe. The Chancellor came to us on Monday and asked us to approve the spending of £5,000,000,000

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of the nation's money, for which he is responsible as the authority charged with the distribution of the national wealth for national purposes. This £5,000,000,000 burden the country has borne by wise distribution, by wise apportionment of the responsibility, and by wise expending of the money collected from every individual in the country.
I would like, if it is possible, to give some idea of what this represents. Five thousand million pounds would have been quite an impossible figure, if it had been attempted, say 20 years ago. Forty years ago it would have been a fantasy to talk about £5,000,000,000., These thousands of millions which we have never seen—I take the word of the Chancellor that they are here somewhere—are tokens of the enormous wealth which this nation creates, day by day, by toil, by skill, by technical knowledge, by organisation, by production in a multitude of forms, by transport, by good husbandry, by wise and careful distribution and by wise government. The significance of these tokens to the individual citizen depends on where they are written. On one side of the balance sheet they are tokens of hope, security, contentment or prosperity. Written on the other side of the balance sheet they are tokens of want, of penury, of woe, of despair. These 5,000,000,000 tokens in the national sense, for which the Chancellor is responsible, represent only a portion of the currency used for our various purposes in this country, but this great sum is a token of a great purpose, a token of the nation's courage, a token of the nation's will to victory and the instrument by which that victory shall be attained. We have to show our appreciation of the nature of currency and the importance of wisely using these tokens. In olden times, when Chancellors were less lucky than the Chancellor of to-day, they were called Exchequer tokens. Examples of these tokens are still preserved in some corner of this building as museum pieces. They were called by that name in those days. These tokens of to-day are living symbols, active symbols of this nation's power, and we should not apologise for trying to indicate, from time to time, what their character is.
I would like to recall to the Committee some fact in connection with the number
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of tokens. The magnitude of this Budget is not at all a cause of dismay to us at the present time, I remember when I began modestly to talk about questions of national finance. I then realised that we all have to rely upon experts in these matters, and we are apt to display great credulity concerning them. I was told 40 years ago, at the beginning of this century, that the whole national income was £1,600,000,000 a year. I believed it, because I remember working very hard and getting far less than £100 a year at that time. I believed that the national income was somewhere in that neighbourhood. The experts said so and we all accepted it. I have seen it grow. I remember there was what is called inflation of about 16 p.c. between 1900 and 1914, and then came the rapid inflation in 1914, 1915 and 1916. I remember that when we were trying to maintain our standard of living, paper money came into existence. In the period previous to that there was direct relationship with gold and a gold currency in 20s. and 10s. units. We began our acquaintance with paper money in 1915 and 1916. We had to live even in times of war and we could not live without increasing the number of currency notes at our disposal. The pound became worth 8s. in the course of that war. That was a serious time for the wage-earners in this country. We built up a large National Debt in that period, a very serious obligation on the country. I hope we shall be able to manage better this time. Then there was deflation, and prominent members of this Administration were responsible for the deflation that wrought havoc upon the export trade, particularly coal and steel, in this country. [Interruption.] There are people still in this House who were directly responsible. So we have gone on.
Now the amazing fact is brought to light, I think in the White Paper issued by the Chancellor himself, that our national income is nearly five times as large as it was in 1898 or 1900. So, these tokens do not represent stable values. No one would say that we produce five times as much coal, five times as much steel, five times as much textiles, or that we had five times the agricultural production we had when the national income was computed at one-fifth of the figure of to-day. So money does change. The value of these tokens measured in terms of goods does change. The business of the Chancellor of the

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Exchequer is to manage the currency. I congratulate him personally, I think he has been very largely responsible. He has a natural equanimity—he disturbs us sometimes, but he has refused to be rattled—and I believe we have been able to manage the currency exceedingly well in the last 3½ years or so. I give an indication of the value of this to everybody in the country. We have spent practically the same to a halfpenny, on food in 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942. What an achievement that with 47,000,000 mouths to feed and bodies to clothe, prices have been so well controlled. We know that supplies have been curtailed but there has been a relationship between the curtailment of supplies and the increase in prices, and we find we are able to spend almost exactly the same to a penny for four years, taking the nation as a whole. We have not been really short of food during the war. That is a great achievement. It is a factor in planning. An indispensable condition of planning is that you must be able to know what your own requirements will be year by year in order to buy food, to buy clothes, to buy fuel and to pay rent. That great achievement is an augury from which I expect very much.
I feel sure however that some of the Chancellor's friends would lead him far astray. We have heard speeches to-day from Members who do not know the work that has been done, and the promise that is given of the work to be done in the future. The country will not tolerate conditions such as we had after the last war. We must not think of returning to the conditions of 1919 and 1920. Our millions of young people, boys and girls, who have seen life, who have played their part heroically, will not have that. There are no words we can use which are too flattering, too high in praise for the services that have been given by our young people who have gone into the various Services and have gone abroad. I heard something to-day about sacrifices. What about the sacrifices of people who have broken up their homes, scrapped everything, gone away to seek new ways of training their hands and minds in the service of the country? To those who have gone into the Forces, men and women alike, I always lift my hat metaphorically, when I think of them. I do not know how many millions of people at the end of the war will be waiting for the
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machines to start up again. Can anybody tell me whether we shall have 5,000,000, 6,000,000 or 7,000,000 people waiting for employment?
That is the time when we shall have to get a Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a Government, and a House of Commons, and a people, sufficiently well-informed upon the prospects and the possibilities of managing this estate which is our country, this estate in which we are all partners and workers, this estate upon which we shall have to live in the days when peace comes to us again.
I would like very much to be able to convince the Committee that on this side we think there is no price too heavy, no sacrifice too bitter, no personal service that we will not render to win the victory, and to preserve freedom, the larger freedom to build still greater liberties for our people in this country when the external enemy has been defeated. But we shall never start right unless we start right with the Chancellor of the Exchequer—unless the Treasury is put on right lines. This money of which we speak is an object of adoration, an object of great respect, for many people. Frankly, I always doubted the wisdom of giving my personal attachment to this money. There is a great misunderstanding. What we really want in life is a chance to live our own lives as much as we can, but so that we do not interfere with and interrupt the opportunities of our neighbour to do the same. We want freedom to live, and we want the opportunity. This must be provided by national organisation. Gone are the old days of laissez-faire; gone are the old stupid days of class privilege; new days have come upon us, and we are now recording in this Budget a stage of progress.
Somebody said that this Budget was a milestone. I would like to know which milestone it is; how many more miles we have to go before we get where we want to be. But so long as we are satisfied that we are on the right road we do not worry very much, because somebody else will be able to take our places as advancing years come upon us and we drop out. I am sure that there is a great future for us, so long as we start right. There is no way of fighting a total war—and nothing but a total war will bring us victory—except by concentrating all the strength of the nation on the war effort. You cannot do that if

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any portion of the nation's spending power is spent on anything that does not add to the strength and production of the nation. If you tax, you must tax evenly. In a society so varied in circumstances as we are, there are rich and poor. Somebody said that there are no rich people, but the White Paper says that there are quite a number of rich people. There are too many rich people, and there are people who are too rich. In a society such as ours it is not easy to apportion the contribution of each man, when you consider that there are 13,000,000 households in this country and probably 25,000,000 or 26,000,000, people—I have not the figure with me—working in different employments. It is difficult to say exactly what you require in contribution from each. Are you to have direct taxation, or are you going to get equality by a measure of indirect taxation? I do not think we can get equality. You cannot tax the full £6,000,000,000 on national income, and so you tax as far as you can, without unduly putting a burden upon your average citizen; without taking too much clothes away from the bodies of the people, and without reducing their food supply.
I remember the discussions in this House, the political debates in the country, the party struggles over the "free breakfast table." What did that mean? That was a claim that the necessities of life should not be taxed, that reasonable conditions of living should be afforded to everybody, and that when they had enough to maintain their physical fitness and capacity of living, they were then to be taxed on the surplus. The Chancellor has done even better than that. He has given us, not quite a free breakfast table; but he has given the breakfast table subsidies to the extent of £50,000,000, and he has given us even better sustenance than we should have had merely from a free breakfast table. This nation is better fed. It is in better health, because a higher average of food and nutrition has been maintained for us in the last four years. Health is an important thing. The real wealth of a nation is in the health of its population. But when we have provided for health conditions, when we have given sound nutrition, when we have reasonably clothed and housed our people, there are so-called luxuries. I am not really competent to speak on these. About 20 years ago I gave up smoking. I have
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done my share of smoking in my life. Indeed, I started very much younger than the average man does. I do not want to say that a man should be taxed for smoking, but I would like to see less smoking. I think smoking is bad for some people. I have been a temperance speaker and I believe this nation would be stronger if we smoked less and drank less. It is right to say that. We cannot smoke or drink our way to victory. It is by plain living and by active devotion to work and to the cause of the country that we can make certain of seeing our way through.
I want to say a word or two again about this daily expenditure, and I again offer my thanks to the Financial Secretary for having given us the significance of this expenditure in day to day figures. Five thousand million pounds is a mouthful. We are spending £16,000,000 a day, of which £15,000,000 is for war purposes and the other £1,000,000 for ordinary governmental purposes. There is only one figure that has not been given, and I would like it to be given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in terms of daily income. I think it is in the neighbourhood of some £21,000,000, whereas our daily expenditure for all purposes is £16,000,000 and there is therefore only £5,000,000 left. The question to be answered is, How do we spend £16,000,000 out of £21,000,000 a day, which is all we have to spend? It is said that we live on capital. We cannot live on capital indefinitely. I would like the point to be cleared up. I think the explanation is that while we have an income of £21,000,000 a day, a large part of it is already accounted for in the expenditure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; it is payment for work and orders given by the Government. There is a suggestion in the White Paper that last year we spent about 38 per cent. of our income on war purposes. That takes some analysis and dissection, but I would like, if it were possible, to give this nation of willing workers and loyal citizens a still more familiar minute picture of the conditions under which the finances of the war are being maintained. I think that the continuous taxation will go on for another year or two. We have the fundamentals and the coal supply which, I believe, will carry us through. The essential material position seems to be secure. The problem of maintaining the finances need not worry us a bit if we proceed on

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sound lines, but I will leave that to the Chancellor.
I would like to express my pre-occupation with what is to come afterwards. I am very concerned, and while I will join with anybody in joyfully congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer on spending £5,000,000,000 of our money this year—and perhaps more next year—I want to know when the time will come to reduce our national expenditure. Are we to start cutting down our national expenditure when the war comes to an end? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already said that we tax ourselves to the extent of £3,000,000,000. We borrow £2,750,000,000 or perhaps £3,000,000,000 this next year. We shall stop borrowing, I hope, when the war comes to an end, but we still have a Budget of £3,000,000,000 based upon our taxable capacity in war time. Will our taxable capacity in peace time, immediately after the war, be greater than our capacity in war time? If our people are not to be put back to work immediately and vast armies of unemployed appear on our streets, and men and women who have been earning high wages stop earning, the whole position will decline and the Prime Minister may find himself in a budgetary crisis before a year has passed after the conclusion of the war.
I would like to feel satisfied with the problem of maintaining the national income at its present level and the spending power at its highest possible level. The Debt is now £15,000,000,000 and 2 per cent., the cost of the service of the Debt, is £300,000,000 a year. Suppose we find before the war definitely comes to an end that we have a National Debt of £20,000,000,000 and that at, 2 per cent. we shall require £400,000,000 a year for the service of the National Debt. I would like to know whether we are prepared for the assumption of a burden of that size. That does not appear to me at all to be large, but it depends upon the volume of your national turnover at the time. If you cut your national turnover to £3,000,000,000 or £4,000,000,000 you cannot possibly meet the budgetary claims of 1944, 1945 or 1946. The only way to maintain the necessary level of general purchasing and spending power is by the Government themselves assuming responsibility for the promotion and creation of large schemes of public work under
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Government direction and control. We are willing to spend money in order to place our men in employment and to provide them with alternative employment with the least possible delay.
We shall solve this problem of post-war budgetary policy quite easily, but there is one thing we shall never be able to afford. We shall not be able to afford the mass unemployment of the last war when there was collapse and breakdown, and the bottom went out of our schemes. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will devote himself to this question and will take the House of Commons into his confidence. The House will be willing to authorise any essential social remedy, whether it comes from the Government or from this side of the House. We will help the country to understand and accept any proposal that is necessary for the benefit of the country. We shall offer proposals to him. I deem it a privilege, as a Member of Parliament and of my party to offer my own suggestions and the suggestions of the party to which I belong. We may have to exert ourselves still more strenuously and may yet have to draw more people into the service of the nation, but there will come a time when we shall have to apply ourselves as diligently, as courageously and as patriotically to preventing the aftermath, the backwash, which we had before returning to stability and providing foundations for rebuilding a better world after this war.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): There are two preliminary matters to which I would like to refer. First, I would thank you, Major. Milner, and the Deputy-Chairman for seeing us so well through these proceedings. This is the first big job that both you and the Deputy-Chairman have had, and I am very grateful to you for all your care during this particular period. I would also like to congratulate three hon. Members of this House who have made their maiden speeches in the course of these Debates. They were the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. J. Beattie)—I am sorry the Rules of Order prevent my handing out any more to Belfast at the moment—the hon. Member for Antrim (Mr. Campbell), and the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Fraser), all of whom, I think, made excellent contributions. I congratulate them very heartily indeed.

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I want, of course, at once to thank hon. Members in all parts of the Committee for their all too generous observations about myself in connection with the Budget. I can assure them that I will not allow my head to become swollen on that account. I remember a constituent of mine once proposing a vote of thanks to me at a meeting. He was not much of an orator but he was a good supporter of mine and, thanking me, he said, "I beg to move a vote of thanks to our Member, Sir Kingsley Wood. He is not an ornament in the House of Commons, but he is a good hard-working Member." That is all I pretend to be. Apart from the personal aspect of this matter, however, I am very gratified at the general verdict which the Committee and the country have given to this Budget. In presenting it, I endeavoured to be fair to all, so far as is humanly possible. Indeed, I kept that matter very much before me in devising the proposals I presented to the Committee on Monday. I particularly endeavoured to temper the full rigour of our very hard and considerable taxation at this time for those whose circumstances, justly, I think, in many respects, claim our sympathy and consideration. Defective though some of my proposals may seem to some hon. Members, I have put no further hardships or impositions on the necessities of life.
My right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), who always makes valuable contributions to these Debates, made one criticism to which I would like to reply. It was a criticism of the amount I budgeted for as our increase in actual expenditure in the financial year, which, he thought, I had underestimated and which, he said, might reach a considerably higher figure. I think that criticism is one that would naturally occur to anyone who has not had a full opportunity, as I have, of looking at the figures. I would like my right hon. Friend to remember this: The 1942–43 expenditure includes expenditure in Canada, against which we had a contribution of £225,000,000, whereas the 1943 estimate excludes the supplies we expect to get in kind out of the new arrangement which is being made by Canada. The estimate also excludes, for the reasons I gave in my Budget speech, the cost of Canada's generous contribution in connection with air squadrons and allied matters. Finally
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—and this is also important from the point of view of getting a correct estimate—the 1942 expenditure includes, what the 1943 estimate excludes, namely, the cost of war damage payments. If those matters are taken into account, I think my right hon. Friend will realise that I have exercised due care and that my officers have advised me with care and precision.
If any issue at all has been raised about this Budget—and I would not say that there has—it is that on this occasion I have turned to indirect taxation to obtain the assistance that is required at the present time. I want to tell the Committee, frankly, some other considerations which have been in my mind and also to make one or two suggestions about the alternative with which I was faced. The high level of direct taxation, which is spread over so wide a range of incomes, is only possible to-day through the willing cooperation of our people. In the higher ranges of income we find not a few taxpayers who are left, after taxation has been deducted, with only 1/20th of their income. In the highest ranges the State to-day leaves the taxpayer with only 1/40th of every pound he earns. That is not the whole story; at the other end of the scale incomes which have been taxed now were relieved of direct taxation altogether before the war. Direct taxation now starts when a single man earns a little over 46s. a week. There is another factor which I had to face and which my successor will undoubtedly have to face if we have to raise further taxation. I could not look, nor can any Chancellor, to the higher income groups alone to find the money that will be required. I have told the Committee before that if I were to take the whole of all incomes in excess of £2,000 a year, the additional yield to the Exchequer would be no more than £30,000,000.
When you are faced with having to raise another £100,000,000, you have to look to other sections of the community, many of whom have only recently come into the direct taxation field. While it is true that many are getting increased earnings and remuneration, I must not forget the great middle section of the community, which, for want of a better phrase, we call the middle class and lower-middle class, on which taxation at the present time is bearing more heavily than on any other section of society.

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If I were to raise that amount of £100,000,000 entirely from direct taxation, I might very well have to reduce the personal allowances, which have already been cut to £80 for a single man and £140 for a husband and wife. To raise the money in that way I would have to make a further cut of £20 in such allowances, and this would mean an increase in the tax bill for everyone concerned of something between £6 and £10 a year or between 2s. 6d. and 4s. a week. I am confident that if that step had to be adopted, it would weigh far more heavily on the small incomes than do the taxes which I have proposed on forms of expenditure which, after all, can be adjusted to meet the additional burdens. I am conscious of what has been said to me by hon. Members about the difficulty and the inconvenience—I think one must not put it much higher than that—of taxation on liquor, tobacco and entertainments. People must not assume, however—and I am sure nobody does assume, although they are sometimes apt to talk as though they do—that the extra tax on tobacco and beer means that these forms of consumption are entirely ruled out for people with small incomes. I have heard expressions used about taking away the old age pensioner's pipe. I should be the last to try to minimise the burden which people with small fixed incomes are bearing in these times. I want to pay my tribute to them for the cheerful way in which they are bearing the strain and the difficulty. The fact remains, however, that it is possible for them, as I shall show in a minute or two, to adjust their consumption to the increased taxation in a way which certainly would not be possible if I were to impose a rigid uniform increase of direct taxation from which there would be no escape.
Mr. Kirkwood: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the old age pensioners will not contribute this cheerfully.
Sir K. Wood: Let me deal with the matter, because I want the hon. Member to take a message to them. For instance, consider the actual effect of the increase which is proposed on cigarettes and beer. I suppose that what we would call a moderate smoker smokes, say, ten "Woodbines" a day. If he cuts down his smoking by one cigarette a day, he will be almost square with his pre-Budget
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expenditure, and if he cuts down his smoking by two, he will be actually in pocket. If one takes the case of a heavier smoker—I have known them and they are not in one sex alone—who smokes 15 full size cigarettes a day, if he cuts down his smoking from 15 to 13 cigarettes he will still spend no more than he was spending before this Budget was introduced. Take the case of beer.
Mr. Kirkwood: Did the right hon. Gentleman say, "Take the case of beer"?
Sir K. Wood: A man who drinks anything from four to seven pints a week will, roughly, be able to save the extra tax if he drinks half a pint a week less. I do not think that is a very severe reduction. I have beard a great deal about the pipe smoker. In the case of the pipe smoker I am advised that a man only needs to give up every sixth pipe to be all square. This is an improvement on the quota which I read the other day was suggested by Charles Lamb as the formula for wise pipe smoking. He said:
"One pipe is wholesome,
Two pipes toothsome,
Three pipes noisome,
Four pipes fulsome,
And five pipes quarrelsome."
Therefore, hon. Members will see that my calculation allows him to have five of all those pipes before he has to give up one. I say that if these facts are taken into account, as they should be, it will be agreed that there is really no great weight in some of the observations that have been made in the Debate that we are bringing great hardship and are acting very unkindly to large sections of our people. I hope I shall not be misunderstood when I say that when one has regard to the suffering and hardship in many parts of the world to-day, this matter is a very small one indeed. Much as I would like everybody to have ten cigarettes a day or six pipes a day, to ask them to have only nine cigarettes or five pipes is a very small thing, having regard to the fact that we are at a crisis in our history. I think we must not exaggerate this matter too much.
I claim that the Government have endeavoured, in the four Budgets I have presented, to have regard to the poorer sections of the community. We have not been unmindful of such special classes as the old age pensioners and others who

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have to manage on small fixed incomes. When any hon. Members go to speak to old age pensioners, they must be fair in stating the facts to them, because I do not think the facts are always appreciated sufficiently. For instance, the Estimates for 1943–44 contain a sum of no less than £43,000,000, which is £13,000,000 more than last year, for supplementary pensions, which were first granted under the Act of 1940. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell), who spoke with such power, referred in a way in which I could not pretend to do to the great advantage to people with small fixed incomes of the stabilisation policy. The only thing the hon. Gentleman made a mistake about was the cost. The cost is now running at the rate of £180,000,000 a year. This is something that was never thought of in the last war and something which undoubtedly is of considerable benefit to those whose incomes have remained fixed. Moreover, all those with small incomes have received and are receiving the considerable benefit of our social services, which are unrivalled by those of any other country. In the Budget I have included, gladly and with no reluctance on my part—although it is an amazing thing for the people of this country to have been able to accomplish it, notwithstanding the very heavy costs of the war—another £60,000,000 for our social services in 1943 over what was provided for them in 1938. Therefore I claim that, on a fair consideration of what has been accomplished in this and the, other four Budgets, we have been mindful of the sections of the community who are hard pressed and are in difficult circumstances.
One concession, in connection with the dependent relative allowance, should be of real help in easing the circumstances of many old age pensioners. The remission which I have made in the Purchase Tax on what are known as household textiles of the utility type will undoubtedly be of very considerable further help to these old people. Therefore, if you take a balance and put on one side the matters that I have mentioned and on the other the tax on tobacco, cigarettes and beer, and view the thing fairly, due and proper consideration has been paid to the needs of these people whom we all desire to help as far as we can.
1340
Many Members have been concerned with the matter of wage-earners' Income Tax. Although I do not seek to rid myself of my responsibility as Chancellor, throughout all these matters I have been in close discussion with the British Employers Confederation and the Trades Union Congress executive, who have been as anxious as I have been to see if it was possible to get on to the current earnings basis, but every time we have examined alternative schemes together they have shown greater hardships and difficulties, and we have come to the conclusion that up to the present we have not been able to devise a proper scheme which would really be better than the present one. We are watching with keen interest the proposals now being considered in the Canadian House of Commons for placing wage-earners' Income Tax on the full current earnings basis. I understand that the scheme requires the employee to make two tax returns each year and to work out his own tax bill, and the employer is made the assessor as well as the collector of the tax. How far we should be prepared to go in that direction I do not know. I have every sympathy with the feeling that has been expressed in this matter, and undoubtedly we have to look at it from the point of view of after the war. My advisers and I will look at it again to see whether anything can be done. I share the view expressed by many that, having regard to the complex nature of the subject, if a scheme is to be prepared, it will have to be done by the Board of Inland Revenue, and I do not think anyone is really so competent to undertake it.
Mr. Stokes: Is the main difficulty that the right hon. Gentleman is up against trying to find a uniform method?
Sir K. Wood: I will send the hon. Member a copy of the White Paper last year, which set out all the difficulties fairly——
Mr. Wilmot: And there are many.
Sir K. Wood: Yes, there are very many.
Mr. Kirkwood: The right hon. Gentleman said he consulted the employers and trade union officials, but he has not consulted the men who are affected.
Sir K. Wood: do not think we could possibly expect the men themselves to go into difficult and technical questions of this kind. I have naturally relied upon

1341
the experts who are associated with the Trades Union Congress and others to state the case on their behalf.
I should like to say a word about the taxation of business profits. I devoted some considerable time in my Budget speech to this matter and was able to give assurances on various points. I have given an assurance that allowance will be made in the computation of E.P.T. liability for instance, the restoration of factory lay-out which has been altered for war purposes, the return of factories which have been dispersed, the undoing of A.R.P. measures, the valuation of stocks, and deferred expenditure on repairs and renewals. I hope the assurances I have given on these points will have gone far to set at rest the anxieties of trade and industry. The hon. Member for Pudsey and Otley (Sir Granville Gibson), while he appreciated the reliefs which will be given to firms liable for E.P.T., mentioned in particular the case of a firm not so liable which would have to bring back plant and machinery which had been removed on the requisitioning of its premises. The Financial Secretary dealt with this point a week or two ago, when it was raised on the Adjournment by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers), and he gave an assurance that a firm which had received compensation for the expenses of removing and erecting its machinery could reserve its right to submit claims for future expenses when the time came for re-erecting the plant. This is a separate matter from the allowance for taxation purposes, which, as I have said, will cover these points as far as E.P.T. is concerned. In general, I would repeat what I said in my Budget speech, that the whole question of the post-war position of business firms in relation to taxation is now being closely examined by the Inland Revenue Department, and this examination will cover the question of the taxation of undistributed profits ploughed back into the business and also of capital expenditure, for which no allowance is made under the existing taxation code. When these matters have been considered by the Inland Revenue and myself, they will have to receive full consideration in the House, and all concerned will be able to express their judgment.
The point was put to me whether I could not express in better terms the 20 per cent. of the tax which is to be given back under the conditions embodied
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in the Finance Act, 1942. I endeavoured to put the matter as well as it could be put in statutory form. I want everyone to feel that that is the definite intention as expressed by Parliament. I hope there is no doubt that this is a definite commitment on the part of the Government and that this reserve will be available to industry at the end of the war, and that it will make a real contribution to meeting the problems of transition to peace conditions. I was asked what the object of the 20 per cent. refund is. That is the object; the Government have made the concession, and Parliament has approved it.
In this and previous Budgets the country owes a great deal to the support which the House of Commons has given to the proposals. We could not have brought them in if there had been great divisions of opinion. The greatest credit of all is due to our people, who have so cheerfully accepted practically everything that has been asked from them. I would like this Budget to be regarded as simply one of six since the war began, because the object of all of them has been the same: first, to keep the finances of the war on a sound foundation, and, second, what to me is equally important, to see that the foundations of the better days after the war which we are now engaged in building shall be built good and strong. I also feel—and I think the Committee will agree with me—that it is vitally important that we should see that all this tremendous sum is well spent, not only for the sake of victory in war, but also for the sake of victory in peace. It is due to that great body of our fellow citizens who have contributed so mightily to the Savings Movement that the money they lend to the State shall be carefully safeguarded and wisely used. It is a function of the Chancellor not only to raise money but, under the strain and pressure of war, to see, so far as he can, that it is laid out to the best purpose and advantage. I hope that financial prudence is still a virtue. We do no harm—and I would like to take my part in the discussion about symbols—in occasionally reminding ourselves that there is no essential difference between the State and the private individual in that what the State wants it must pay for.
I do not fear for our future. If we can continue with equal circumspection to husband our financial strength, we can

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face the tasks before us with full confidence. The immense productive capacity of the world, which is now being used unhappily for the purposes of destruction, will, when victory has been achieved, be available to us, if we are wise enough to use it, to enable us to achieve a better and more secure life for all mankind. We have been considering the biggest Budget in our history and I believe that it is still further tangible evidence of our firm resolve to leave nothing undone in the financial field, as in all other fields, to achieve victory at whatever cost, so that freedom and happiness may soon again come to mankind.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That it is expedient to amend the law relating to the National Debt and the Public Revenue, and to make further provision in connection with Finance."
Resolution to be reported upon the next Sitting Day; Committee to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

REPORT [13TH APRIL]
Resolution reported:
REPORT [13TH APRIL]

  NATIONAL LOANS
  "That the power of the Treasury to raise money under Section one of the National Loans Act, 1939, shall include power to raise any money required for raising any supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and forty-four, and in addition a sum not exceeding two hundred and fifty million pounds."
  Resolution agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Assheton.

  NATIONAL LOANS BILL,
  "to extend the powers of the Treasury to raise money under Section 1 of the National Loans Act, 1939"; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 24.]

NATIONAL DEBT (PERMANENT ANNUAL CHARGE)
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
[Major MILNER in the Chair]
Resolved,
"That it is expedient to authorise

(a) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the sum of three hundred and seventy-five million pounds for the permanent annual charge for the National Debt for the current financial year, instead of the sum of three hundred and fifty-five million pounds;

(b) the provision out of money borrowed for the purpose under the National Loans Act, 1939, instead of out of the permanent annual charge for the National Debt, of the sums required for the current financial year for the purposes mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of Sub-section (4) of Section twenty-three of the Finance Act, 1928, as amended by any subsequent enactment."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[Sir K. Wood.]

Resolution to be reported upon the next Sitting Day.

CIVIL AVIATION
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.".—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
Mr. Granville: I desire to raise the question of civil aviation, with special reference to the recomposition of the board of British Overseas Airways Corporation and also the designing of prototypes for post-war air liners.
It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Beechman.]
Mr. Granville: British Overseas Airways Corporation was set up before the war, under the chairmanship of Sir John Reith, on the principle that if you roll everything together, you will get something approaching a white elephant. Before this Corporation was formed we had in civil aviation in this country Imperial Airways, British Airways and a number of independent companies. Imperial Airways were responsible for the overseas sea routes, the Empire routes, which were flown mostly with Empire flying-boats. They were also responsible for the North Atlantic route. British Airways were responsible for the land-based routes in Europe, and towards the end of their time

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they were allotted the South Atlantic route. Then all these companies were lumped together as British Overseas Airways Corporation. I opposed the formation of that monopoly. I believe we should have a certain amount of enterprise in civil aviation, not only some competition between routes but some competition and enterprise between land-based aircraft and flying boats. What civil aviation has suffered from in recent years is the fact that they have had people pushed on to them who know nothing whatever about civil aviation. Accountants, lawyers, bankers, B.B.C. officials—all have sent their quota to be responsible for the supreme direction of one of the great transport services in the British Empire.
Now the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Air has announced a new board with a certain number of what I would call part-time business men on it. I am bound to say the reception which has been given to this announcement, as was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) in a Question which he asked the right hon. Gentleman to-day, is a very disturbing one, and it has had a depressing effect not only upon civil aviation and the aircraft industry but upon the public generally, who have themselves taken a tremendous interest in the future of civil aviation after the war. None of us has anything against Mr. Simon Marks or Mr. Marchbanks or the Chairman. They are eminent men with honourable careers behind them, but this is not a chain store or a railway or an ordinary business. The work of this Corporation is to plan and organise the airways system of the British Empire, and I submit that that requires a knowledge of aircraft, of flying boats, of aerodromes, of radio and of flying, and I do not believe that some of these directors are even what is called "air-minded."
I have tried to intervene in civil aviation Debates in this House for some time because I hold strong views on the future of air transport. We are the greatest oceanic Commonwealth in history, and I believe we shall have to be an air Commonwealth after this war. I hold the view that this question must be seen with an imagination which envisages services every day to India, Australia, Canada and Africa, to reach these places in two
1346
days, using perhaps some place like Hyde Park as a central Euroepan terminus. And of course these services would have to be flown bark from overseas and Dominion airports. We have an aircraft industry to-day which the Minister of Aircraft Production has told us is now the largest industry in the country. Whatever plans for industrial demobilisation the Government may have, the switch over in this industry, will depend very largely on the plans which the Government make to design and produce planes for civil aviation. We may have to feed Europe immediately after the war by means of relief planes. We may have a situation in which shipping, for some of the lighter freights, will be superseded by air freighters. In addition to that, there will be thousands of young men, the heroes of the Royal Air Force, wanting to make a career in the skies. In my view, in civil aviation will be found the industry, the career and the transport of the future. Unless we plan the future air transport from these Islands on the basis of a great air commonwealth, I am bound to say, from my experience that we shall be relegated to the position of a second-class civil air Power.
I want to make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman. I had something to do with civil aviation through British Airways. I believe this thing is bigger than a company with a board of directors in this country. I believe there are men in the Empire—I wish I had more time to develop this subject—in places like Australia and Canada and South Africa who have experience and knowledge of civil flying. Unfortunately, some of them have turned a good deal to America. Why not call together a board of these men and constitute a Commonwealth Airboard now, representative of the British Commonwealth of Nations? Set up this board now, and for committee meetings let them meet in an aeroplane, and not in any circumstances in a Government Department. Government Departments and Committees have been "gremlins" of the development of civil aviation. The Committees of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Reconstruction would ground any aeroplane; they are completely depressing. Surely the right hon. Gentleman must realise that you cannot plan these great developments of the future with part-time businessmen as a board of directors here in London.

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The right hon. Gentleman has referred to this question as international dynamite. I agree that if you leave this matter to unbridled competition is has all the potentialities of international dynamite, but why leave it to competition? Why not start now discussions among the United Nations on methods and ideas of co-operation? Before the war we were using American Lockheed 14's for many of our European services. It is true that America is a long way ahead of this country in the development of civil aviation. I am told that the major concerns in the U.S.A. have a prototype of post-war civil aeroplanes either on the drawing board or actually in production. I believe that one vast concern has a designing staff larger than the whole of the industry in this country.
The right hon. Gentleman must bear in mind that it takes at least four or five years to produce a prototype. We do not want to compete with America, but to try to get the fullest co-operation with the U.S.A. At the present time there is between the United Nations the most complete exchange of all technical information on military aircraft. Why not begin now, within the United Nations, to exchange information on technical development on civil aircraft design and such information as we have available on designs and ideas for fuel economy, safety devices, etc.? There is much that America could give us on safety devices and the rest of it. Why not accept the precedent we have accepted about military equipment? Instead of talking about unbridled competition after the war, why not begin to effect this cooperation with America and exchange all technical information about post-war civil aviation prototypes? If we do that, it means that this country has a part to play. I hope the right hon. Gentleman is not going to tell us that we are going to aim at the programme or plan which has been announced by him in this House and discussed, I believe, for some time by the Under-Secretary. I hope he is not going to tell us that the extent of the target that the Government have in mind or are aiming at is 400 or 500 air liners after the war on the basis of the production of 100 a year. Surely we should envisage a programme sufficiently large to enable a great part of the present aircraft industry, with its research departments, laboratories,
1348
technical staffs, to turn over after the war to the production of civil air liners.
In the same way the United Nations must aim at a civil air federation and eventually at something in the nature of a world air line. If you are to have an international police force after the war, well the Lufthansa was the father of the Luftwaffe. You will need to have inspection, there will have to be supervision, and therefore I cannot, for the life of me, see how we can possibly envisage a great world development in civil aviation without the closest co-operation not only on the basis of the British Commonwealth but between the United Nations. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us some ray of light to-day that the Government plans have this in mind. I know that a certain number of people have been advocating that civil aviation should be handed over to another Department. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend is too busy. I do not know, I am not qualified to say, whether this should be taken away from the Secretary of State for Air and put in charge of the Minister of Transport or someone else. All I beg the Government to realise is that the public of this country is determined that the progress of post-war civil aviation is going to be on a great, not a small, scale. I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that if he is too busy and if the Under-Secretary is too busy then some other Ministry should be used, or a Ministry should be set up to deal with this question.
In conclusion I want to make this suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman. He has set up a board. It has had a very poor response, it has struck a note of utter and complete gloom among those who have some ideals for the future about this subject. It is a temporary board, as I understand it, and I appeal in this House for a bold venture to treat this from a Commonwealth point of view. I appeal to him to call on Australia, Canada and South Africa and to set up a board here and now which will envisage this great future in air development. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to set up this board as soon as possible. I know that he has a great responsibility in his hands, but time has wings. I purposely refrain from referring more specifically to what is happening in America, but I beg the right hon. Gentleman to recognise the

1349
great responsibilities that he has and to set up this air development board, in order that we may take our rightful place in the post-war world of civil aviation.
Mr. Simmonds: My hon. Friend made a very important reference to international control, but I thought his remark a little ambiguous. Would he be quite specific? He is not in any way suggesting an international aircraft-operating organisation, is he?
Mr. Granville: I notice that an American authority said in yesterday's papers that we may have to apportion machines and traffic, possibly on the basis of the number of people using them from each country. I do not know. I do not visualise at once one great air line. I want, first of all, that the Commonwealth should organise itself as an air unit, and set up its air lines, and then get some exchange of information and co-operation between the United Nations. You must have a basis of civil air federation if you are going to have an international police force which envisages supervision and inspection. Otherwise, the mails and passengers go out, and the bomb-racks come in. If there is to be this co-operation, then one day we must expect to see one great world air line.
Mr. Montague: The hon. Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) seems to be very anxious to head off the idea of international civil aviation.
Mr. Simmonds: International air line operation.
Mr. Montague: I meant aviation in that sense. May I underline a point made by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville), when he said that the Lufthansa was the father of the Luftwaffe? If that is true, and if we have to prevent the development of national air forces of an aggressive character, we must look upon not only military aviation but also civil aviation from the point of view of international needs and international necessities. At any rate, I do not suggest that it will be possible immediately, but sooner or later we must realise the international aspect of the air itself, the fact that there are no boundaries in the air, and that all those problems have to be solved internationally some way or other; and that must come down to the operational field just as much as to the manufacturing field.
The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): I cannot help regretting, and I am sure the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) will understand why I say so, that he should have made this attack upon the members of the British Overseas Airways Corporation. This Corporation is doing an invaluable job of work in the war. Its services are of the greatest war value. It is vital that it should be kept going, efficiently and strongly. The former members of the Corporation found themselves in disagreement with me on an important point of policy, and they resigned quite suddenly, all except one. I was fortunate enough to find three other gentlemen to join with the member who did not resign. They came forward willingly, stepped into the breach, and have since applied themselves to the job with assiduity. They have been constantly on the job, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that if he will make inquiries from those most closely concerned, he will find that they have already won the respect of those with whom they work. It is quite true, as I told the House of Commons, that the chairman whom I have appointed is only appointed temporarily. I intend—and I feel sure I shall carry Members with me in this—to find as chairman for this extremely important post a man who will give his whole time, or at any rate almost his whole time, to the work of this Corporation. I cannot ask the distinguished gentleman who is now temporarily holding the post of chairman to do so, but I think I can carry the House of Commons with me this step further. I am sure that they will understand that it is not easy to find a man of the stamp for whom I am looking.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: Surely the right hon. Gentleman would not have us believe that; when the permanent Chairman is appointed, it can possibly be anything but a full-time job. He says almost a full-time job, but surely it must be full time plus, if such a thing exists?
Sir A. Sinclair: In view of the difficulties with which I am faced in finding men of the right stamp, especially in wartime, I do not want to give a firm pledge to which the House would be entitled to hold me. I should like to be able to take a man of outstanding mark if he should stipulate that he must give some little time to another matter which would have no

1351
conflicting interest; but I want to find a full-time man if possible. It is not easy in war-time, because most men of the stamp that I would like to engage are engaged on important war-time duties from which it is difficult to spare them. I shall not allow the grass to grow under my feet in searching for a man, but I want to take a reasonable time before I make my decision.
The hon. Member for Eye turned on to an interesting proposal for a commonwealth aviation board. I am not quite sure exactly what he had in his mind. It is within his knowledge and the knowledge of other hon. Members that the British Overseas Airways Corporation was created by legislation by this Parliament and is financed by the taxpayers of this country. It would be anomalous to appoint to the Board representatives of Dominion Governments who would have no statutory or financial responsibility for the board. The practical approach to imperial collaboration is a joint operating company to operate certain routes. The obvious examples which will be in the minds of hon. Members are the trans-Tasman route jointly organised by the Australian, New Zealand and United Kingdom Governments; Quantas Empire Airways which operated the route from Singapore to Australia; the Indian-Trans-Continental Airways which is a joint operating company of which the Indian Government, Imperial Airways (now the British Overseas Airways Corporation) and Indian National Airways own the shares; and a very interesting company—which was stillborn on account of the war and has never actually operated—which was formed before the war to operate the Trans-Atlantic route—my hon. Friend opposite knows about it—in which the Canadian Government and the B.O.A.C. and Eire were to share. The share holdings were arranged and the articles of association drawn up and then the war came. That is the line on which to bring about practical imperial collaboration. These joint operating companies are very difficult to bring about and are operated only under conditions in which there is a very clearly defined need.
It is an interesting suggestion, however, that we should in future reconstitute the British Overseas Airways Corporation as a truly Imperial body financed and
1352
founded by the different Governments of the Empire. That is a very big question—I dealt with the larger and fundamental issues in my speech on the Air Estimatessand it would have to be considered in relation to large issues of international policy and to the problem of international co-operation after the war. My hon. Friend the Member for Eye spoke as if I had been advocating what he called ruthless competition and pleaded with me to bring a ray of hope—I think that was the metaphor he used—to those concerned with this question and to say that the Government might consider some form of international co-operation. Well, it will be within the minds of some Members that I made a speech on that subject on the Air Estimates. I hope I shall not fall into the habit of quoting my own speeches, which is a most deplorable habit, but this time, perhaps, I may be excused because what I said on that occasion had been considered by my colleagues in the Government and I made my speech formally on behalf of the Government. This is what I said on that occasion:
"In the view of His Majesty's Government, some form of international collaboration will be essential if the air is to be developed in the interest of mankind as a whole, trade served, international understanding fostered, and some measure of international security gained…For though air transport is a young industry and its potentialities have everywhere fired the imagination its organisation in the post-war world cannot be considered in isolation but must be so framed as to be consistent, in spirit and in truth, with the principles that should govern the international economic policy of the United Nations after the war."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, nth March, 1943; cols. 996–7, Vol. 387.]
That was echoed in a speech made by the Prime Minister of Canada last week, when he said:
"We are determined, however, that our influence on the course of events will be in the direction of international co-operation and collaboration. The Canadian Government is in complete agreement with the United Kingdom that some form of international collaboration will be essential if the air is to be developed in the interests of mankind as a whole, trade served, international understanding fostered, and international security gained.'"
I think an advisory body would be worth consideration but there is no need to take immediate steps in that direction, because in the meantime the Dominion High Commissioners participate in our councils and the United Kingdom Government are in direct consultation with the Indian and Dominion Governments.

1353
Whether, later, we should establish such a council will be a question for His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions and in the United Kingdom as a whole to consider and decide upon and not for His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom alone. I would only say, in conclusion, that we are giving most careful thought and study to the larger problems of the future organisation of international civil air transport, to which my hon. Friend referred. I agreed with a great
1354
deal of what he said, with the exception, perhaps, of his suggestion of Hyde Park as the terminal for international air services after the war. The House and the Government are determined that, in whatever form we are called upon to play our part in world air transport after the war, that part will be one which will be worthy of this country and the Empire.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

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  Flowers and Flower Plants (Order)
  Flowers and Flower Plants (Order)
ROYAL NAVY
  U-boat Warfare
  U-boat Warfare
  Deceased Officers and Ratings (Identification)
  Deceased Officers and Ratings (Identification)
  Office Staff, Devonport (Illness)
  Office Staff, Devonport (Illness)
  NATIONAL FIRE SERVICE
  NATIONAL FIRE SERVICE
  NORTHERN IRELAND (SKILLED WORKERS)
  NORTHERN IRELAND (SKILLED WORKERS)
  HAMPSTEAD GARDEN SUBURB (ROADS)
  HAMPSTEAD GARDEN SUBURB (ROADS)
  HOUSE OWNERS (NUMBER)
  HOUSE OWNERS (NUMBER)
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LIVERPOOL HYDRAULIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with an Amendment: the said Amendment considered and agreed to.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE): My Lords, before we proceed to the business on the Paper I think it may be for the general convenience of your Lordships if I inform the House that we propose to adjourn for the Easter Recess on the third sitting day in the next series of sittings, when we shall have a Royal Commission, until the first sitting day after the 2nd of May. There is one other point about which I would like to consult your Lordships, and that is with regard to the debate which is taking place to-day on the very important Motions in the names of the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, and Lord Davies. There is a long list of speakers who have already put down their names, and I think it is certain now that we shall not be able to complete the debate to-day. I would therefore suggest that the wisest plan would be to adjourn at a suitable hour and complete the debate at the next sitting, when it will be the first business on the Paper. I think that ought to be entirely satisfactory. As your Lordships know, there is a Motion on the Paper in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Rothermere, but we should finish this debate at a pretty early hour and that would give plenty of time to the second Motion. If therefore that is agreeable to your Lordships, I would propose that we should adjourn the debate to-day and continue it at the next sitting.

INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AFTER THE WAR.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD had the following Notice on the Paper:
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To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they have reached any decision as to the nature of the International Authority which it would be desirable to set up after the war with a view to the maintenance of peace and the encouragement of international co-operation; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I rise to put the Motion that stands in my name. I ought perhaps to explain that the Motion was put down originally some weeks ago, and though events have taken place since then which undoubtedly have changed the aspect of it, I think it right to submit the matter to your Lordships. Indeed, in some respects the changes that have taken place have made my task easier. I hope I need not assure my noble friends opposite that this is not in any sense a hostile Motion. This is a Motion merely to call attention to these particular things and, even if I have to make any comment on anything that has been said or done by the Government, it will be in the most friendly way.
At the outset I should like to say that I am very grateful to the Government for the declarations they have made recently on this subject. It is not with a view to challenging them in any way that I am going to speak to your Lordships. I may ask for an explanation here and there, but the main purpose is to draw attention, as far as one can, to the subject so that it shall not come upon the people of this country as an entire novelty when the matter has to be discussed at the international conference. I am quite sure that in a matter of this kind it is of the utmost importance that the policy which is to be pursued shall be a policy which is understood and supported by the people of this country and indeed by the people of all the other countries who will be affected by a policy of that kind.
Three speeches by very important members of the Government have been made recently. One by the Home Secretary, Mr. Morrison, was a very important utterance, and all the more important because he went out of his way to say that he represented the views not only of himself but the whole of his colleagues. Then, of course, there have been more than one speech by the Foreign Secretary; and, above all, there was the very important broadcast by the Prime Minister. With your Lordships' permission I should like to make an attempt out of these utterances to put together

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certain propositions which seem to me to represent the policy of the Government in this matter. I shall be corrected if I am wrong. Very likely I shall leave out things which ought to be included. Taking it in that way, I think the first proposition would be that the Government say once again, as they have constantly said, that the first essential is victory and that there must be no relaxation in our efforts to secure that at the earliest possible moment. The first and main object we have in view is to defeat the German conceptions of world government and to establish in their place a lasting and just peace. That seems to me to be the first item of the Government policy in this matter. From that follows the second point which has been laid down very clearly, that in some way or another international aggression must be stopped. It must be treated as an international crime, and any actual aggression, or any preparation for aggression, must be nipped in the bud. It has been very well put by the Foreign Secretary in a speech he made in America, I think to the Legislature of Maryland, in which he said this:
"Our common safety demands that overwhelming force be brought to bear against the aggressor wherever he may be."
That is the second policy, that arrangements be made by which overwhelming force can be brought against the aggressor. That in its turn involves some form of international organization, the creation of some kind of International Authority, because it is quite obvious that if you are to have overwhelming force no single State can possibly provide that force by itself. It must be the work of several States, and for that purpose there must be some kind of international organization to collect and utilize that force. Here again I will quote the Foreign Secretary, speaking this time in the House of Commons:
"We recognize the need for some authority to ensure by force that neither Germany, Italy nor Japan should be able to repeat their aggression."
It is quite plain that whatever is true of these three lawless Powers may become true, if we are to trust history, of other Powers in the future. Therefore there must be some kind of organization which will be able to utilize overwhelming force against any aggression that may be threatened or may take place.
Then you come to what the International Authority is to be. Here again I think we have some indication. The International Authority, the new authority which I observed the Prime Minister called with his usual felicity "a world institution," is to be based in the first place on the United Nations, led, as I think appears from his speech, by the four great Powers among the United Nations, America, Russia, China and ourselves, but ultimately, as the Prime Minister was careful to point out, designed to embrace all nations. I will say only one word on a matter which has been the subject of comment—namely, that in the Prime Minister's broadcast, some people thought, there was an intention to treat China on different lines, though not essentially different, from the other three Powers. I think that was a misreading of the broadcast. In any case it was absolutely disposed of by the Maryland speech of the Foreign Secretary, who made it perfectly clear that China was to be treated on an absolute equality with the other three Powers, and indeed with all the United Nations, because it is a clear part of the policy of the Government that all nations are to be treated on a footing of equality.
That being the nature of the new authority, the next item I would mention is the proposal for the lasting disarmament of the Axis Powers—not merely just their disarmament but their disarmament to be maintained for a period afterwards. I do not remember that, in these three speeches, any definite term was put to the period of disarmament. I think that the Lord Chancellor, in another connexion, stated what I have always understood to be the policy of the Government in that matter—namely, that disarmament should last until there was satisfactory evidence that the whole policy on which aggression has been based had been abandoned. You cannot define the term because, as he I think said, it is for them to say how long the period is to be. That is the third item, and the Prime Minister adds, as part of that, the punishment of war criminals. I was very glad indeed to see that he put that matter in the forefront of his broadcast. Certainly, it really belongs to the same conception; you must make it quite clear that the kind of national procedure of which the Axis Powers have been guilty is utterly intolerable to the civilized world.
The next and the last item to which I shall refer is a little less absolutely clear, I think, than the others, but it was most definitely stated, I believe, by the Home Secretary that that disarmament and the punishment of war criminals would be followed by the creation of an International Police Force and a general reduction all round—when that force has been created—of armaments. The Home Secretary went quite a long way in defining what he meant by an International Police Force. I understand him to have meant this, that there would be, as it were, a common pool of forces and armaments belonging to some or all of the Powers who should take part in the new authority, and that in addition to that there would be a comparatively small body who would be something between police and inspectors. That body would be stationed particularly in the countries which we have reason to believe belong to the aggressive group, and would be charged with the duty of reporting to the International Authority any symptom of growing aggressive policy, so that the Authority should take action upon it.
I do not know, and I hope that my noble friend, when he replies on behalf of the Government, will be able to make it quite clear, where the Government stand about this. I am not quite sure that that conception which I have just mentioned is definitely adopted by the Foreign Secretary or the Prime Minister. The only allusion by the Foreign Secretary to the matter, which I have come across, was one in which he said that he thought that in order to keep peace you would want all the strength of all the United Nations, including—for I rather think he included them expressly—the Big Four. The Prime Minister, making it even more widespread, said that we would have to rely on national or international force or a combination of the two. I shall be glad if my noble friend finds himself able to make it more clear and more definite. Certainly it seems to me to be perfectly clear and most essential that there should be ready, in some form or another, an international force capable of preventing aggression. That must be one of the most essential features of any new organization of peace. On the actual form which it might take, no doubt differing views will be expressed. I see that my noble friend Lord Davies has a Motion dealing with
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this matter on the Paper, and he, no doubt, will explain his views, which we all respect and admire.
Broadly speaking, the line which I have attempted to define seems to me to be the line of policy. You are to have excommunication of aggression, if that is a permissible phrase. You are to have a new authority which is to provide the strength necessary to make excommunication effective. You are to have a lasting disarmament of the Axis. You are to have, in some form or another, the creation of a peace force, an International Peace Force—whether you call it a police force or not does not seem to me to matter very much. I need not say that I am entirely in agreement with every one of the items which I have recited. I think it is of the greatest possible importance that these views should be well understood in this country and abroad, so that when they come to be discussed in the Peace Conference, in whatever form the proposal may take, there may be an intelligent understanding not only of what is proposed, but of what is really involved in these propositions.
I should like to add a personal word of deep appreciation concerning the reference that the Prime Minister made to the League of Nations. I confess that I was both gratified and, in a way, surprised, that he should have been moved to make so very definite a statement as to the value of the efforts of the League of Nations, and as to the work that it had accomplished, and to profess that any reorganization must ultimately be rested upon the principle of what I think he called freedom, law and morality. And he said that that was really the principle upon which the League of Nations was based. Mr. Morrison, when he was discussing the distinction between the new authority and the old League, said that the new authority would differ from the old League in three respects. In the first place, he said, it would be fully representative, which the old League was not. I am not quite sure whether I understood exactly what he meant. I think it must have been that he meant that the new authority must include representation of the United States and of Russia, which certainly the League of Nations did not include at its inception. I do not think he could have meant that the new authority must be representative of the Axis Powers as well, because, evidently,

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that would mean postponing any action by the new authority—it might be for a great many years to come. If he meant what I think that he meant, then I entirely agree that that would be a big improvement. He also said that it must have a positive policy, which the League had not. I am not quite sure, again, whether I know what he meant by that. I should have thought that the League had a fairly positive policy. It may be, however, that he had in mind a policy of reorganizing frontiers, reconsidering treaties and so on, work which no doubt the League did not in fact undertake, although it had power to do so. Finally, he said that it should have an armed force. I have already said all that I need say about that.
If that is the policy of the Government, I come now to the strict point of my question: What is the machinery that they contemplate for carrying this into effect? I venture to submit that, as a matter of business, there is a great deal to be said for the view that you might take the existing League—it still exists, of course, and is actually functioning to some extent—and reconstitute it, making amendments and, if so desired, changing the name. There is a great deal to be said for the term used by the Prime Minister—"World Institution"—but there are many other names which could be invented for it. In point of fact, most of the powers which the League possesses would seem to me to be necessary for the new authority; what you would want to do is to clarify some of them and to add to them. I am not going into detail on that, because it seems to me that it would be premature to do so until we know more definitely than we do at present what the policy of the Government in its details is.
In the first place, you have to settle what is to be the nature of the authority, what is to be its fundamental constitution. As to that,. there are, as far as I can make out, three schools of thought, and only three. First of all, there are some people who think that it is a great mistake to have any definite constitution at all. They think that it is far better to have a general understanding that the Peace Powers will in fact stand for peace. They think that the more the constitution is made definite, the more difficult it may be to get it carried out. I am afraid that I wholly disagree with that view. I think it is just conceivable that in past ages
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some such plan as that might have worked, though I know of no instance in which it did work, and there have been many cases, of course, where at the conclusion of a great war the Powers concerned have sworn that they will never fight again, and that their only object in future is peace.
Such a proposal, however, seems to me to be quite out of the question at the present time. You are threatened, let us say, with an aggression, organized secretly, no doubt, and bursting suddenly, very much as this one did, on the Powers of Europe and of the world. If you have no kind of organization and no kind of document to rely upon, you have then to begin the elaborate discussion of what ought to be done, whether this does really amount to a breach of the peace, and what steps you are to take to organize the forces of peace. I cannot think that that would really be an efficient protection. It must be remembered, moreover, that one of the most important functions of any organization for peace is to give confidence, particularly to the smaller Powers, but also to the larger Powers, so that they may not be afraid of sudden aggression by an over-whelming neighbouring Power. You must therefore show them clearly, somehow or other, what provisions are made for their protection, and how far it is right for them to rely upon those provisions. I think that a general understanding would not give them any kind of satisfaction; it would be regarded by them, I am convinced, as a kind of advertisement that once again, as they would think, the British Empire was going to withdraw from all share in maintaining the peace of the world.
The second school of thought takes exactly the opposite view. They say that the great defect of the League was that it was not nearly definite enough, and that nothing short of something in the nature of a new Federal State or Federal Union is any use. I do not propose to argue that at any length, because it seems to me that, whether you like the idea or dislike it, it is so obviously premature that I cannot believe that there would be any possibility of acceptance by the Powers of an organization which would include a representative body voting by majority, having power to direct their foreign policy and their armament policy and the necessary finance attaching to it

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—an organization the component parts of which would always in the nature of things be in a minority. That seems to me to be an impossible policy at the present time. Some day we may reach it, but I think it is a long way off.
We are therefore driven back, as it seems to me, on the other policy, the policy which we have so far pursued—namely, the policy of an organization—a Confederation, if you like to call it so—of really independent States, who have agreed for certain purposes to act together in order to preserve peace and promote international co-operation. If you look at the state of the world at this moment, I think you will agree that there are two great international passions. One is for peace. I have not the slightest doubt that if it were possible to have a referendum all over the civilized world on the general proposition: "Do you desire peace and that all international differences should be settled by pacific means?" there would be a prodigiously overwhelming majority in favour of peace. That is not simply an academic opinion; everybody who reads the newspapers must know that the passion for peace and the hatred of war and all its horrors are widespread over the whole world.
Some people may dislike and regret it, but I think we must accept it as a fact that there is also still, and perhaps more than ever, a strong feeling of nationality, a strong desire that the nationalities shall be independent and not under the control of any other nationality. That was recognized, of course, in the Atlantic Charter, which definitely says—I am not quoting the exact words—that each nation is entitled to its own independence. That is a very strong feeling. It is only necessary to look at the prodigious sacrifices which are being made in country after country, where everything is being given up in order to destroy the foreign rule of the Germans—almost always it is the Germans—and to recover complete independence, to see that this is so. Those two feelings seem to me to dominate the international world at the moment, and I venture to submit to your Lordships that no organization which does not fully recognize the existence of those two feelings and those two passions will have any chance of success. Whatever organization
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is adopted, therefore, must have regard to that fact.
There is one matter which I ought to mention, although it is not part of my argument. I mention it merely to show that I have not altogether forgotten it. There are some people who say: "You are beginning entirely at the wrong end. The first thing to do is to establish a much more progressive and just system, both social and economic, and, if you can do that all over the world, then the desire for war will die out and you need not bother about what particular machinery you are going to adopt in order to keep the peace." I will not argue that because it would involve a much more elaborate discussion than even I have the courage to inflict upon your Lordships. I will only say that I believe it is entirely untrue; that there is no prospect of reaching peace merely by social and economic reforms; that my experience is that, conferences that have met to establish some reform, particularly economic reform, have generally failed. I do not think that you will ever succeed in establishing peace by such means alone. That does not mean that I am against them. On the contrary, I fully support and recommend that considerable changes, both social and economic, should be made, and that some of them require international action to make them effective, and if that is done they will be an important lever for keeping peace. But if you do not have, in addition to that, at the back of all, the resort to force to which the Foreign Minister alluded so emphatically in his Maryland speech, I do not believe that there is any prospect of setting up any organization which will maintain the peace.
I am bound to recognize that the great answer that is made to any argument on those lines is, "Well, but this is merely a repetition of that which you have tried before, and which failed." It would involve a long argument in order to discuss that properly, but I would like to make three observations about it. In the first place, I listened the other day to what I believe is called a "Brains Trust" on this subject, and one of the speakers said that he thought one of the great difficulties of the League was that people went into it without really appreciating what it was, that there was no real agreement about the obligations that it imposed. I believe that is true.

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I believe it is true to say that, broadly speaking, the nations who composed the League were not really in earnest in the matter—not all of them. Some of them were profoundly, but a great many of them were not. If I am not impertinent in saying it, I have a very distinct recollection of the kind of speeches that were often made even in this country: that the League was a kind of altruistic organization, not having any particular advantage for us but being at any rate an effort by this country to save the poor, blind foreigner. As long as that kind of view prevails—and it was not peculiar to this country—it is evident that you are not really likely to make any arrangement succeed. I am satisfied that the remedy for that state of things is to get the first principle of international organization understood and accepted before you proceed to the Peace Conference.
Another reason was a curious one. I heard a Swiss speaker say he thought it was the love of peace that destroyed the League, and of course I know what he meant. We all remember the kind of phrases, such as "We have kept you out of war," "No commitments," and things of that kind, which no doubt appeal to a very strong feeling in the country. The great thing was to avoid anything that might lead you into war even if that was the only way ultimately to secure peace, which was generally denied; but, even if it was, the first thing was to avoid war, and therefore nothing should be done which could possibly lead you immediately into war, though ultimately that was the only way to peace. That is being now very distinctly repudiated by the Foreign Secretary and other Government speakers, and I need not dwell on it any more, except as an explanation, or part explanation, of why the League ultimately failed. The third reason is one which is very often heard—namely, that the whole machinery of the League was too elaborate and too cumbrous to work, that you had to get the unanimous consent of all the members of the League before you could do anything. I think that was founded on a slight misapprehension of what was intended by the Covenant of the League, but I will not go into that. There was, no doubt, an element of great truth in the criticism and I think that you will have to face that great difficulty, that
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whereas the League must normally be a deliberative body working for long-term improvement, and dealing, from a strictly peace point of view, with the various questions and controversies that are brought before it, when you come to the threat of war you want something which will act with vigorous, administrative decision.
I quite admit that, as the League was constituted, there was not such a body in existence. It will be a matter for consideration whether you will not have to have in your world institution a section embracing the four great Powers—the Big Four—who will be positively pledged to use the whole strength of their respective countries in order to prevent aggression, and it may well be that they will have to have a certain amount of administrative machinery to help them in discharging that very important duty. Something in the nature of a General Staff would no doubt be desirable, but in addition to that I think the Secretariat of the new authority, whatever it may be, ought to have as one of its duties to represent to this section any threatening appearance in any part of the world, for them to consider it and deal with it as they think right. The advantage of that particular procedure is that it removes the necessity of any single Power appearing as the hostile critic of any other Power. That would be done as a matter of routine by the Secretariat, and it would be for the peace section of the League that I have tried to describe to take action which might be necessary in order to deal with the emergency. That is all I shall trouble your Lordships with at this moment. I am more than conscious that I have only dealt with a very small part of this tremendous question—this "stupendous question "as the Prime Minister called it. I am delighted to know that it is occupying, as he told us, the attention of the Government. They are bending the whole of their energies to solving the difficulties and problems which will arise, and I very much hope we may hear something from the Government as to the actual methods and action they are taking.
That is what I wanted to say about machinery, but I would add this. I do not want it to be thought that I or any other rational being thinks that machinery is a vital thing; it is not, of course. You may have the most admirable machinery

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in the world, but unless there is the will to work it, it is obviously quite useless. Conversely, if you have a real desire to work the machinery in order to preserve peace, then this or that defect in it will probably not be of great importance. I boldly say that, as far as I can see, the machinery of the League might have been used to preserve peace, but there was a lack of the spirit and desire to do that. After the speech which the Foreign Secretary made in Maryland, the Legislature there passed a resolution which was read out in another place. It was of the most laudatory character, and was very gratifying and, indeed, touching to any British subject. It contained one sentence which I venture to repeat to your Lordships. It praised our "noble effort to cling to the paths of honour despite the indecencies of the enemy. "That is a tribute of which any country may be proud. But it is not enough. We must "cling to the paths of honour, "but we must do more than that. We must make it clear to ourselves and the world that we have an unfaltering devotion to freedom, truth, and justice, and a determination to spare no expense and to be ready to submit to any sacrifice in order to establish peace on the basis of those principles. If we really put peace in that position—which is far more important than what are called British interests since peace is far and away the most important of all British interests—and say we shall he ready and willing, as we have always been, to resist any attack on our territory, on our commerce, on our finances, and on the liberty of our subjects, we must be still more ready to resist any attack that is made on that system of peace without which none of our other interests can be preserved. I beg to move.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for Papers relating to the nature of the International Authority which it would be desirable to set up after the war with a view to the maintenance of peace and the encouragement of international co-operation.—(Viscount Cecil of Chelwood.)
LORD DAVIES LORD DAVIES had given Notice that he would call attention to the implications of the Atlantic Charter and the Anglo-Soviet Treaty; urge the necessity of establishing an Inter-Allied Commission before the conclusion of hostilities to consider
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these implications, and to submit proposals for the closest collaboration of the United Nations in post-war reconstruction through the establishment of an International Authority; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Motion which is down on the Paper in my name is complementary to the one which has been moved by the noble Viscount. What I want to plead for is that the subject we are discussing here this afternoon should be investigated by representatives of all the United Nations in order that this tremendously important matter which has been raised by the noble Viscount may not be the subject merely of unilateral declarations, but may be expounded by an Inter-Allied Commission representing all the United Nations.
In the last few days your Lordships will have read a most important document issued by the Treasury. It is called "Proposals for an International Clearing Union." I cannot help feeling that it is one of the most important documents we have yet received from any Government Department dealing with post-war reconstruction, but it is, after all, a unilateral pronouncement. One cannot help feeling that if we had had consultations with representatives of the Allied Governments an agreed document might have been prepared which would probably have received universal approval. Therefore, I put forward again to-day the suggestion which we discussed during a debate last August—namely, that the implications of the Atlantic Charter and the Soviet Treaty should be thoroughly investigated by an Inter-Allied Commission. The noble Viscount on the Woolsack on that occasion pointed out that the Soviet Treaty and the Atlantic Charter were both historic documents. He will also agree that they enunciate general principles. As the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, has pointed out, principles are not enough. There have to be also the institutions through which these aims and principles can find practical expression. I cannot help feeling that the Atlantic Charter is a skeleton which has to be clothed with flesh and blood, and the sooner the United Nations get to work preparing the ground for the carrying out of its provisions the better.
What has happened since our debate last August? There has been a general improvement in the war situation. At that time Rommel was threatening to attack Egypt, and the situation in Russia

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was very critical. Since then the Allies have seized the initiative, and our prospects are very much brighter than they Were then. I mention that only because the noble Viscount who sits on the Woolsack made a point that it was no time to consider the implications of the Atlantic Charter when the military situation was so critical. The time is now much more propitious than it was a few months ago. My noble friend Viscount Cecil of Chelwood has already alluded to the speeches which have been made by leaders in the United States by Mr. Wallace, Mr. Sumner Welles, and others, and on the last occasion we discussed the speech which had been delivered by Mr. Cordell Hull. The Lord Chancellor promised that the full text of that speech should be distributed by the Ministry of Information. The text that was available up to that time was an abbreviated one. I have been making some inquiries and, so far as I can understand, that proposal was not actually carried out. So far as I know, there has been no full text of the speech delivered by Mr. Cordell Hull. Unfortunately, therefore, unless we were able to consult the American newspapers we were not able to read the whole of the text of that most important and historic speech.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): Will my noble friend forgive me for intervening? His recollection, I think, is quite right. I did say on the occasion to which he refers that I would make that suggestion; indeed, I took upon myself to express the hope that it would be done, but I had not then been able to communicate with others. I did, however, carry out my promise. The view that was taken was that if there was to be a publication it would really have to be of a number of documents and that it would be difficult for the Ministry of Information to undertake to publish one particular speech of one particular statesman. I only interpose to say I did not forget my promise and I did my best to carry it out.
LORD DAVIES: I hope the noble and learned Viscount will be more successful the next time an historic speech is made in the United States of which it is very important that we should have the full text. As the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, pointed out, a number of speeches have been made by statesmen in this country. He alluded to the speech of
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the Home Secretary, the speech of the Minister of Aircraft Production, speeches of the Foreign Secretary, and also the important broadcast of the Prime Minister, in which he reiterated the opinion that he held at the end of the last war that it would he essential that the International Authority should be equipped with an adequate and effective police force. He also referred, I think, to what he described as a Council of Europe. Some of us perhaps would prefer to be associated with a Council of the English-speaking peoples within the structure of the World Institution through which these Councils would be able to co-operate in the general interest. But I still feel that there is a great need for an objective investigation and that that should be undertaken not unilaterally, as apparently it has been up to now, but by some body that represents all the United Nations. If they could work out a plan, that plan could be finally submitted to the Governments which they represent without committing those Governments in advance.
This principle, as far as I can see, has already been adopted in at least two cases. There is a Conference on Refugees, which is to be held in Bermuda in the immediate future, and there is another Commission which is to be set up and which, I believe, is to meet at Hot Springs in America. This, we are told, has to do with the provision of relief and with the food situation that will arise at the end of the war. It seems to me, therefore, that the principle of collaboration has already been agreed to, at any rate in regard to these two particular subjects. It may be said that they are immediate questions and that in regard to them there is a pressing need for some immediate action. I cannot help feeling, however, that in fact the same principle should apply to other subjects, and that there should be a comprehensive survey of those subjects, referred to by my noble friend in his speech, which impinge upon each other. It is impossible to deal with them entirely and completely separately.
I have already alluded to the White Paper dealing with the Proposals for an International Clearing Union. That is obviously the main subject of this Paper, but on page 18, in Chapter IX, subsection (2) of paragraph 39 alludes to an adequate sanction for the proposals which are put forward in the memorandum. Perhaps

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I may be allowed to quote to the House what this subsection says:
"The Union might set up an account in favour of any super-national policing body which may be charged with the duty of preserving the peace and maintaining international order. If any country were to infringe its properly authorized orders, the policing body might be entitled to request the Governors of the Clearing Union to hold the clearing account of the delinquent country to its order and permit no further transactions on the account except by its authority. This would provide an excellent machinery for enforcing a financial blockade."
I merely quote that to show that these things are all mixed up together and how difficult it is to deal with them piecemeal because one subject leads to another as they are all interdependent. Another instance of this, which we discussed a few days ago, is the connexion between civil aviation and military aviation. I do not think that problem can be satisfactorily dealt with until it is first of all decided what is to happen to military aviation. Once that has been decided I think it will be much easier to promote a plan for the co-ordination of civil aviation. I have already suggested that there are several subjects which might be dealt with in this consultative way.
Then, as has been pointed out in the last debate, there are the implications of the Atlantic Charter and the Soviet Treaty. I do not intend to go into that matter again except very briefly. For instance, there is the question of frontiers and that has to do, of course, with the procedure of plebiscites and referendums. Up to now no properly constituted plan has been drawn up for carrying out the plebiscites so that instead of becoming shams, as they have been in the past, they should really represent the views and the desires of the peoples who undertake them.
LORD STRABOLGI: May I point out that at least in regard to one of them, the plebiscite in Schleswig-Holstein, that was undertaken under British auspices and was regarded as successful and fair?
LORD DAVIES: I think my noble friend would agree that this subject deserves consideration, and that there should be an agreed plan in order that whatever is done should be acquiesced in by all the countries who are responsible for carrying it out. Then there is the question of self-government. How are we to ensure that
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in future the peoples in the occupied countries, when they have been rescued, are able to set up institutions necessary to self-government? There are also economic questions, and another point in the Atlantic Charter is the freedom of the seas. Again I say that I cannot feel that there is anything to prevent the Governments of the United Nations investigating these problems at the earliest possible moment. We have had the declaration of the Soviet Union which was embodied in the Treaty. Perhaps I may be allowed to quote the article in the Treaty that deals with that point:
"The High Contracting Parties declare their desire to unite with other like-minded States in adopting proposals for common action to preserve peace and resist aggression in the postwar period."
That is a categorical declaration on the part of the Soviet Union of readiness to collaborate in any plan of this kind.
We have also the declaration of the United States, and quite recently, as your Lordships no doubt will have observed, a resolution was introduced into the Senate of the United States by Senator Ball, who is a Republican, urging that the United States should take the lead in the organization of the United Nations for five functions—first, to make full utilizations of all their military and economic resources in carrying on the war; second; to establish temporary administrations in reoccupied territories; third, to assist in the rehabilitation of areas now dominated by the Nazis; fourth, to set up machinery for the peaceful adjustment of international disputes; and fifth, to create a United Nations military force to quell any future attempt at aggression. It is interesting to note that that motion was put down by a member of the Republican Party, not by a member of the Democratic Party, and that he has been supported by, I think, twenty-six Republicans out of fifty-five who were elected at the last Election. Therefore there seems to be in the Senate of the United States a desire that these questions should be discussed by a United Nations Commission. What is the procedure which we adopt in this country when some new legislation is suggested? The usual procedure, I believe, is to appoint a Royal Commission of persons who are asked to investigate the whole subject and report to the Government. Here we propose to legislate for the future peace of the world, and I

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should have thought it was tremendously important that some body of persons, who could approach the whole subject objectively, should be asked to go into the whole matter and report to the Governments concerned. As I have said before, that would not commit the Government. In the last debate somebody suggested that this was not the time for an international conference or for a conference of the United Nations. I quite agree this is not the time for a conference. The conference is bound to come at the end of the war. But what I do venture to suggest is that the preparatory work for such a conference could be most usefully carried out now.
One other point I would like to stress is the necessity for bringing about a common measure of agreement before such a conference starts its discussions about what Senator Ball's motion describes as "the organization of the United Nations." As to the terms of reference, obviously the Commission might be invited to report upon the implications of the Atlantic Charter. The Commission might take as their terms of reference the motion which Senator Ball and his friends have already proposed to Congress. In the last war we had, as your Lordships will remember, the Phillimore Committee who investigated a number of problems and were able to submit the result of their researches when the Covenant was being discussed and settled in Paris. If it had not been for the intervention of President Wilson at that time, the Foreign Office here were anxious that these matters should be discussed before the Peace Commission in order that there might be an agreed plan.
I entirely agree with my noble friend when he said that at the end of the war there will be a tremendous reaction against war and the peoples will demand international legislation in order to prevent future catastrophes. All leaders in democratic countries depend in the last resort upon public opinion and it is vitally important, as I think your Lordships will agree, that that public opinion should be an informed public opinion. The preparatory work and recommendations of a Commission which I regard as so essential would help to mould and guide public opinion in these matters. Therefore I venture to appeal once again to the Government to approach the other Governments of the United Nations and suggest to them that perhaps the time has now
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come when some definite machinery should be set up, in order that these subjects, and especially the matters alluded to by my noble friend, should be thoroughly gone into, and that a Commission of the United Nations should, as soon as possible, set to work upon these important matters.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, the subject embodied in the Motion now before your Lordships' House is exceedingly wide and my noble friend who opened this debate surveyed in his admirably comprehensive speech the greater part of its vast extent. I do not propose to attempt to follow him in any such general survey. It would be more appropriate for me to select a few particular points and to submit them to your Lordships. I propose to deal only with four specific points and to do so with the brevity which I am sure your Lordships would desire. I agree, I need hardly say, with the purpose of the question and Motion which have been placed upon the Paper, except in one word. The one word from which I dissent is the humble little word "the." The noble Viscount refers to the nature of "the International Authority which it would be desirable to set up after the war," and my noble friend Lord Davies, in the terms of his Motion, speaks of the "collaboration of the United Nations in post-war reconstruction through the establishment of an International Authority." Well these articles, the definite article and the indefinite article, seem to me to be out of place, and my first point is to submit to your Lordships that the problem is much more complicated than that.
At the end of the last war it was thought that if a neat and tidy written constitution was drawn up for the League of Nations, beginning with Article 1 and going on to Article 26, all would be well. And it is the error which has been fallen into by our friends who advocate federal union of the nations. They say the world is in a bad way—owing to what cause? Owing to international anarchy, to a state of chaos—and we all agree. What is the cure? Obviously, instead of anarchy, to have some definite federal constitution of the world to which all States would adhere. Then you would have the alternative, and the only alternative, to the present state of chaos. On that I think they are making the same mistake as was made

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after the last war, in thinking that it is possible to create an International Authority to establish the international authority which is necessary. As for federalism, I am in agreement with my noble friend Lord Cecil of Chelwood. It appears to me, in the present state of the world, to be wholly impossible. Its proposal is that the existing Parliaments should remain in being. If many of the great and small States were to join we must imagine that in Washington, Paris, Brussels, The Hague, Stockholm, Oslo, and wherever it may be, and here in Westminster, the present Parliaments would remain, elected as now, and dealing, as now, with industry, trade and taxation, but having nothing to say with respect to their foreign politics, with' respect to their armaments, with respect to their entering into any war or abstaining from any war, and with respect to so much of their finances as might be required for purposes of defence. All these matters are to be withdrawn from their hands, and entrusted to a Federal Parliament and a Federal Government. I feel convinced that not one of these States would agree to such a change, and I am quite certain that not one of the British Dominions would agree to such a change. There I am wholly with my noble friend Lord Cecil.
Now confederation, as he has stated, is quite a different thing. Confederation does not supersede existing Parliaments, but combines the existing Parliaments in a co-ordinating union for purposes of foreign policy and national defence. Already we know that some of the European Powers, whose Governments have been resident in this country, have agreed to confederations. We know, for instance, that Poland and Czechoslovakia have signed a preliminary convention for a confederation between them. Yugoslavia and Greece have done the same thing, and these Powers hope that these two confederations may be linked together and that other adjoining States may adhere. That is an entirely different proposition, though one of a more complicated character, than a uniform federal system. The Prime Minister, in his admirable and outstanding broadcast a few weeks ago, adumbrated further that there should be a Council of Europe and a Council of Asia, each of them consisting of great Powers together with confederations or groups of Powers. And over that would
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be a world institution. As my noble friend Lord Cecil of Chelwood has said, in that world institution, you will have some body which will necessarily be analogous to the League of Nations as it has hitherto existed, perhaps with a change of name and perhaps with a different constitution and powers, but substantially embodying the same idea and pursuing the same purpose.
There you may see part of the world pattern of the future—this world institution with a Council of Europe and a Council of Asia, confederations in various regions, and great Powers co-operating. And even that could not be the whole of the pattern, for it is clear that there must he some body exercising force to maintain peace, and it is obvious that that body must be dominated by the four greatest Powers—the British Commonwealth of Nations, the United States of America, Russia and China. That is a further complexity in the pattern. And even that is not all, for the economic regulation of the world's affairs must require authorities of its own. We have had two great schemes proposed for dealing with the formidable problem that has arisen owing to the collapse of the gold standard and the automatic adjustment of currency values and international exchanges, which was of the essence of the classical economics but which has broken down in the present state of the world. These two schemes have been put forward; one by the British Treasury—owing much to my noble friend Lord Keynes, who by the part which he has played in this matter has rendered yet another great service to his country and indeed to the world—and the other proposed under the auspices of the American Treasury. But whichever of these schemes is adopted, or, what is more probable, if there is some combination or variation of the two, another international organization will be required to make the necessary arrangements and to carry out the work that has to be done. The British scheme calls for an International Clearing Union, the American scheme for an International Stabilization Fund with an authority to control it.
Furthermore, there has been connected with the League of Nations an International Labour Office, the I.L.O., which has rendered most valuable service and which is still functioning. It would certainly have to continue to function in the

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post-war world. Although connected with the League of Nations, the I.L.O. has its own constitution. It is governed by a representative body of Governments, Employers' Associations, and Labour Associations, and it exercises almost complete independence. Also there has got to be an International Court of Law to deal with juridical questions, which must from the very essence of its purpose be an independent body. Your Lordships will see, therefore, that you cannot have an International Authority or the International Authority to govern the post-war world; the comity of nations will possibly prove to be almost as complex as the organization of a national society itself. That is my first point.
My second point is that I submit that this can be brought about only by stages. We must accustom ourselves to the idea that we shall not have a repetition of the Versailles Conference, a body of statesmen meeting from all over the world and in a few months dealing with all the problems which vex mankind. Some urgent matters will, indeed, have to be dealt with at once—the feeding of Europe, arid other important economic questions, such as the supply of raw materials and so forth. No doubt some questions of frontiers will have to be dealt with immediately. Someone has said recently that nowadays there is no line on the map which is stable or permanent except the equator, and that is imaginary. We must proceed, then, stage by stage.
My noble friend Lord Davies has just said something about the need for having some formal constitution. I believe, looking back over the history of this country, we may see that such measure of success as the British people have achieved in the course of the centuries over which their history extends, has been very largely due to the fact that they have been free from the incubus of a written Constitution. The casualness with which this nation is endowed, the wise scepticism of intellectualism and dogma, has led it to be very chary of formularizing its institutions too much, and its haphazard, illogical system of government has proved a very great blessing; it has allowed the Constitution to adapt itself to unforeseen contingencies, and has thereby contributed very greatly to such political success as it has won.
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After the last war, the League of Nations was set up in accordance with the practice to which all the other countries of the world, or almost all of them, had been accustomed. American influence—the Constitution of the United States is regarded there with great veneration—and Continental practice, which is almost universal, led the statesmen of Versailles, almost as a matter of course, to think that the first thing to be done was to frame a definite, rigid constitution for the League of Nations. If I may once more refer to our friends of Federal Union, they are actively engaged in the interesting parlour game of drafting constitutions on paper; with their electorates and constituencies, and two chambers and their powers—all of them in all probability, destined to be quite futile. Some constitution there must be; here I agree with my noble friend Lord Cecil of Chelwood. We cannot leave the whole matter to a kind of "gentleman's agreement." I submit, however, that the influence of this country should be devoted to persuading our Allies and future colleagues that that constitution should be as little elaborate as possible, and should be as little rigid as possible. It must deal with membership and general objects; but our aim should be to plant a tree and let it grow rather than to decide beforehand how we are going to meet all the contingencies which may arise in the future.
My third point is that this country will not be able to avoid considering, in the very near future, the question of the administration of Colonies. The Atlantic Charter lays down certain principles, and the Prime Minister, if I may venture respectfully to say so, made one of his very rare lapses when he indicated, in perhaps a not very well-considered observation, that those who framed the Atlantic Charter were not thinking especially of countries such as India, and of British or other Colonial possessions, but rather of the relations between independent States. That is not an attitude which I think on reflection ought to be maintained, especially in view of the present state of the war, particularly in the Pacific. There, owing to the aggression of Japan, we have been ousted from Malaya, Singapore and Burma, and those countries will have to be reconquered very largely through the might and the valour of the American Navy, Air Force and Army. The American people may well feel that

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they will have a certain moral responsibility for the future of those countries which their arms will have helped to rescue; and for other reasons I think that the other countries of the world at large, if they are to consent to certain countries retaining possession as the dominating Power of large portions of the earth, will need to be assured that the principles embodied in the Atlantic Charter will be applied there as elsewhere.
Some have suggested that the only proper solution of the question of the Colonial Empires is to pool them all, and to place them under some international government. That, as I ventured to submit in a previous debate on this subject—I need not elaborate it now—is not a course which history shows is likely to be successful. International administration of any territory is usually unprogressive and dilatory. The administrators are drawn from different countries, with different backgrounds and traditions, accustomed to different systems of law and obedient to different loyalties, and the team-work which is essential to good administration anywhere is likely to be lacking. I do not believe that the peoples of those territories are likely to demand that their present Governments should be superseded by some mixed International Commission.
On the other hand, the opposite suggestion, that all these territories should be set free to pursue in independence their own fortunes, is not likely to conduce to their own welfare or to the well-being of mankind. Many of them are small in population and have not the political ability and experience or the financial resources which would enable them to maintain a high level of well-being. Furthermore, the world is now divided into something like sixty-six Sovereign States. There is almost universal agreement that that is too many, and that the movement in future should be rather towards the integration of countries than towards the breaking up of such unions as have come into existence historically and now prevail. If the solution of the Colonial question for the British Empire were to be that of breaking it up into its several parts, and if that were to be followed in the case of the French Empire, the Dutch, the Belgian and others, we should have perhaps 100 or 120 Sovereign States in the world, and certainly the task of its good government
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would be far more difficult even than it is to-day. I believe that if the twentieth century were to dissolve the British Empire, the twenty-first century would be obliged in some form to recreate it.
The pooling of Colonies and the disintegration of Empires are not, however, the only alternatives. If there were, after the war, a general desire in the United States of America and elsewhere for some international supervision of all Colonies, in the nature of the Mandates system that was established after the last war under the League of Nations for the mandated countries, I see no reason why the British Empire should not welcome it. It would be applied equally to all Empires—those that I have mentioned, the French, the Dutch, the Belgian and the Portuguese as well as our own. I had experience myself as High Commissioner for Palestine of the working of that mandatory system, and was filled with admiration for the impartiality and the painstaking care with which the Mandates Commission at Geneva performed the duties entrusted to it. I would add, so far as our own Colonies are concerned, a suggestion I made in a previous debate but which is not relevant to this one, that there ought to be a Joint Select Committee of the two Houses of Parliament dealing with Colonial affairs, so that Parliament should be much more closely and normally linked with the administration of the Colonies, and thereby the nation put in closer touch with the affairs of peoples for which it is responsible. That, however, is a matter which I hope may again be the subject of a separate debate.
My last point is this. If, surveying the whole field of public affairs, political and economic, national and international, one were asked to choose one particular point as more important than any other, my answer would be Anglo-American co-operation. It is not the only point to be pursued, but if that is attained then all else may follow; but if that is not attained all else may be lost. Happily we hear from the United States now voices, powerful and influential voices, in favour of a policy of collaboration. President Roosevelt, in one of those striking homely phrases for which he has been famous, said in a recent broadcast, "It is useless to win a war unless it stays won." And after having won this war it is essential that we should see that

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it stays won. That can only be attained, I believe, if there is whole-hearted, active cc-operation, especially between the British Commonwealth and the United States. Many other American statesmen have spoken in the same sense recently: Vice-President Wallace, Mr. Cordell Hull, Mr. Sumner Welles, Mr. Wendell Wilikie and others. Those speeches have been noted in this country and in this Parliament, and have been most cordially welcomed.
Yet we know that the spirit of isolation is strong in the United States, partly from historical causes, partly owing to the uncertainties of the future, partly owing to requirements of domestic politics. The United States has a written Constitution, with a strong bias in favour of isolation from international obligations, a Constitution which was deliberately designed with that purpose and to have that effect. We know that the Executive of the United States can make no treaty without the assent of the Senate; and not only that, but the Senate must assent by a majority of two-thirds. If after this war there were a question of a treaty into which the United States Government was desirous of entering in order to assure such international collaboration, and if the ninety-six members of the Senate were divided sixty-three in favour and thirty-three against, it is the thirty-three who would carry the day.
That is the eighteenth century constitutional provision of the United States. In that century isolation seemed obviously to be right, in the nineteenth century it was doubtful, in the twentieth century it may be regarded as plainly injurious; yet it is the hand of the eighteenth century which now grips the present situation. For this reason there is in this country—it is useless to conceal it—a deep anxiety as to whether the United States will, or will not, take her leading place in helping to maintain the peaceful order of the world. Anglo-American co-operation is of primary importance, but, as I said, it is not sufficient in itself. Nothing could be worse than that these two great Powers should agree on a cut-and-dried scheme for action before the voices of Russia and China could be heard—and not only of them but of the smaller States. My noble friend Lord Davies suggests an Inter-Allied Commission. I have some doubts about that as a method of pro-
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cedure. I am not sure that the Governments themselves will not have to come together in some form or other, first perhaps by informal negotiation, and afterwards by formal negotiation, to deal with these weighty matters. Furthermore, we should be departing from the principles for which we are fighting if behind the backs of the smaller Powers we were to endeavour to reach conclusions on these matters.
Your Lordships will have been amused at the statement issued after the last meeting between Hitler and Mussolini, which included this paragraph:
"The common aims which the Axis Powers are pursuing to defend European civilization and to preserve the rights of nations to free development and co-operation were reaffirmed."
That has not been received by the world with respectful admiration but with a shout of laughter at its impudence, for countries which have invaded and overrun all their neighbours and carried fire and slaughter everywhere, and now control them by the methods of the pressgang and the firing squad—for them to speak of preserving "the rights of nations to free development and co-operation," is a piece of impertinence which has seldom been equalled in international history. On the other hand, the United Nations have given proof that they do care for such free development and co-operation, and that must be maintained in the successive stages of the evolution of the new organization of the world, which cannot be simple and uniform, which must have its aspects, political, military and economic, and which must be established in its several regions, in its continents and over the planet as a whole.
LORD LANG OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I am sure we are most grateful to my noble friend Lord Cecil of Chelwood for introducing this subject and for the very comprehensive and constructive speech in which he did so. I think we all agree that it is waste of time at present for even amateurs—much more, statesmen—to attempt to formulate large schemes for the possible future of world organization, and therefore I do not propose to enter at any length into those particular schemes. At the same time it is worth noting that the Prime Minister himself, with all his caution and his sense, as he described it, of the mystery and peril of this vast subject, should have gone out of his way to indi-

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cate his own outlines of a world institution. I must confess, speaking very diffidently, that what he said about that caused me some perplexity. He proposed, as it appeared, to divide his world organization or world institution into two Councils, a Council of Europe and a Council of Asia. I must assume that he meant only a division for purely administrative purposes because, surely, the one thing we have learnt is that the world is one, and that peace as well as war is indivisible. Plainly both the United States of America and this country must -be essential members of each of these Councils because each of them has essential interests in both the Continents. Therefore I was a little perplexed to know exactly what the Prime Minister meant by that division. However, that is by the way.
Agreeing that it is impossible at present to envisage the distant scene, what is all the more essential is that we should be quite clear as to the first steps that are to be taken immediately this war is over. When that happy event will come none of us can tell. It may come more quickly than perhaps we anticipate; but at any rate it is vital that at that moment, and not a moment later, there should be an established agreement as to what immediate steps should be taken to secure and maintain the peace. There an immediate question naturally arises—it can hardly help arising—what is to be the use made of the existing League of Nations? Are we to conceive that when that moment arrives the League of Nations is at once to step into being and act as the agency which will be necessary? Here I must say something which my noble friend Lord Cecil himself could not say. It is that however much we may feel, as I do, that that is not a practicable plan, we must be more eager to acknowledge our debt to the men who conceived and constructed the League of Nations with such high ideals and great ability. I do not think that debt has been acknowledged as it ought to have been because of the rather unfortunate recent history of the League. These men, of whom my noble friend was one, were pioneers. Perhaps they had to suffer the fate of most pioneers, and discover by hard facts that many of their hopes could not be attained. But pioneers they were, and they have blazed a trail which we have all, in one way or another, to follow, for the League of Nations, or
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something akin to it, is the goal which must govern all our efforts.
But I repeat that I am convinced it would be quite impossible to expect the League, even if it were modified in certain respects and tightened in certain other respects, to step in and function as soon as this war is over. For one thing, what would be the attitude of the United States of America? The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has just called our attention to the ingrained isolationist tradition of the United States. A mere change of name, which left the League of Nations in substance what it was in 1920, is not likely to induce the United States to change the decision they took then and to enter such a League now. Apart from that, it must be admitted—I do not think my noble friend would disagree—that in the course of its history certain defects in the League were revealed which no mere minor amendments or changes can possibly remedy. The chief, of course, was its inadequate provision for meeting any serious military challenge by prompt and effective military action. To put it in another way, the League established an international authority, but it did not succeed in establishing international power.
No doubt my noble friend is well entitled to say that the chief reason for such measure of failure as there was in the League in its later years, was the fact that so many of its Member States were either afraid or unwilling to accept the obligations of the Covenant; but that alone would not account for the measure of failure. The truth is that the League either never had, or was not able to lay hold of, any such overwhelming strength as was capable of convincing aggressive Powers like Japan or Italy that it was vain for them to pursue their aggressive designs. It was that defect really, as I see it, which lay at the root of the inability of the League of Nations, certainly on two conspicuous occasions—Manchuria and Abyssinia—to carry out its own declared views and judgments. Therefore I am sorry I do not think that any minor amendments can possibly overcome these conspicuous defects.
That only leaves the question what shall be—I do not like to use the word "organization"; but what shall be the steps taken so as to be ready the very moment the war comes to an end. Here I follow what was said by the noble

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Viscount, Lord Samuel. It seems to me clear that the four great victorious Powers in which, of course, I assume China will sooner or later be included, must have agreed beforehand to step in and be ready to assume a two-fold responsibility. The first, as is agreed by us all, would be to effect a complete and immediate disarmament of the Axis nations and to maintain that disarmament at least until there is convincing proof that the Axis nations have abandoned their aggressive instincts. None of us knows how long that will be. In the second place, they must be ready to exercise such united force as they possess in the immediate future whenever any occasion for it should arise. Something has been said, and very rightly, about the smaller States, but at this preliminary stage I doubt whither it is possible to expect more than that they should, either singly or in groups or confederations, associate themselves with the four great Powers and be willing to leave the main determination of policy in their hands. It is a fundamental proposition that policy in the long run must depend on power, and in these critical stages immediately after the war it is essential that those who have the power should determine the policy, unhampered at that stage by any difficult requirements as to consents. That is the only way—I say so diffidently—in which we can hope to steer safely through the currents as soon as the war is over.
But that is only a short-term policy. It appears to be agreed from what was said this afternoon, and indeed from what has been said by the Prime Minister and Mr. Eden, that sooner or later a long-term policy must be adopted. There must be a large association of nations—as large as possible—which is able to lay down some plan for collective security in the future. I suggest that this might be done when the proper stage comes—and nothing could be more true than what was said by Lord Samuel, that in this matter we must proceed by stages—when that stage comes, there should be summoned an international convention. It is here that I see the chance of reviving and restoring the League of Nations. I should imagine that such a convention might take the League as it is as a basis, and after many and drastic amendments proceed on that basis to evolve a plan of collective security. I say that the amendments
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must be drastic, particularly in that respect of seeing that in the future the International Authority is possessed of power. If any of your Lordships had been Archbishops of Canterbury you would know the futility of possessing authority without power; and that must not become an international situation.
Such a convention as that which I suggest would be able to take the League and mould it in accordance with the light of past experience. Moreover, surely still the League so modified and constituted is the natural centre and focus for all that international co-operation in matters of trade and social economy of which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, was speaking. Still there must not be a series of organs but so far as possible a united organ to exercise all international co-operation. I suggest, moreover, that much of the existing work of the League must be continued in the future, for example, the work, to which Lord Samuel referred, of mandates, very largely extended, the work of controlling such despicable traffics as those in drugs and white slaves, the work of supervising and watching over the standard of living in different countries and, not least, the invaluable work of its labour bureau. In all this I can see that provided we do not put upon the League at once more than it is able to carry it may still have a great function in the history of world united effort. But I return to my main point, which is that we must be ready, and I am sure will be ready when the war ends, to lay down a firm foundation of sufficient military force such as will be able to support any structure which may ultimately be built upon it. I feel sure that the Government will be able to give us every assurance that the ground for that foundation is being prepared now.
VISCOUNT SANKEY: My Lords, I am sure every member of your Lordships' House will be grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, for his speech this afternoon and also for his labours in the cause of peace for so many years, and we all hope that they will be long continued. We are constantly hearing suggestions as to the necessity for national planning after the war, but the question of international planning, the maintenance of peace and the encouragement of international co-

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operation are equally important and present more difficulty and for several reasons. We shall have to take into account the views and wishes of our Allies. We shall also have to deal with nations who have been our enemies and whose present system of government we have determined to destroy. I find myself in accord with the Motion proposed by the noble Viscount. He has dealt with the nature of the International Authority which it is desirable to set up after the war. Permit me to discuss briefly the course to be pursued in order to achieve this purpose.
The war will not end with an immediate treaty of peace; it will end with an armistice and the appointment of an armistice commission. The conclusion of a final treaty of peace had better be delayed for some considerable time, and during the period of waiting certainly, and probably for longer, an Army of Occupation will have to be maintained in Germany. Meanwhile the armistice commission will be sitting. On it the victorious Allies, the four great Powers, together with sonic representatives of the oppressed nations, will naturally have a commanding voice. It is doubtful whether it will ever be possible entirely to abolish war. Evil can never pass away, for there must always remain something which is antagonistic to good; but to prevent war breaking out nine times out of ten and to obtain a lasting peace is worth while, even if the deliberations to ensure it do take prolonged examination. As to the armistice commission, what should be the duties of the armistice commission? I suggest two: first, to settle questions arising immediately out of the war; and, secondly, to pave the way for some world organization with the aims and ideals of the League of Nations but with different machinery for their accomplishment. Let me purposely use the words "world organization" because the words "League" and "Federation" have come to signify objects and methods which may either be impossible or at any rate undesirable.
In such a world organization the victorious Powers would be units of major influence, and federations of smaller nations in one unit would enable them to exert more influence than if they stayed alone. Now Great Britain will occupy a
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pivotal position in such an organization, but we must not forget that we are part of the European family and we must not forget that we are allied to the United States of America as victorious partners in the war, and united by the close affection which grows from common aims, from kindred blood and from similar traditions. Above all, we must not forget the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations, not only for those reasons but because they are of us. The armistice commission should prepare the fundamental features of the peace itself. It is impossible to foresee every situation and settle every detail at once, but we must even now begin to think about some of the main conditions.
Let me immediately pass over two items because our policy with regard to them seems to be settled, whatever be the methods by which that policy is to be maintained. It will be recollected that the Covenant of the League of Nations, by Article 23, gathered up and provided for many international, social activities, as, for example, fair and human labour conditions throughout the world, just treatment of the native inhabitants, general supervision over agreements as to the traffic in women and children and opium and other dangerous drugs, freedom of communication and transit, equitable treatment for the commerce of all nations, and the prevention and control of disease. Many of these items were dealt with satisfactorily by the International Labour Office and should undoubtedly be the care of the future world organization. I also pass over the question of the treatment of war criminals, because the policy with regard to that has already been made clear and is determined. In laying down the principles which the armistice commission should prepare for adoption by the subsequent world organization, the aim for which we have been fighting must not be overlooked. We are fighting for certain moral values; we are fighting for the democratic way of life, which is fundamentally opposed to the Nazi creed; we are fighting for a guarantee that a future peace shall be made more or less permanent; and we are fighting also for the reorganization of Europe.
The topics to be discussed may be put into two categories, the first containing matters of local and national interest

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and the second matters of worldwide and international interest. In the first we should include the peculiar contribution which every nation, either great or small, can make to the general benefit of the world in art, literature, and science. The second category is a larger one. Above all, an effort should be made to prevent war and to mitigate its horrors if it should arise, to promote the general well-being of mankind and to facilitate intercourse between the nations. The likelihood of war may be diminished by removing its causes, by providing the means of settling disputes either by arbitration or some international court and compelling the nations to observe the terms of settlement. As to the prevention of war, two questions immediately suggest themselves—how to deal with defence and how to deal with disarmament. With regard to defence, it would be foolish in the present circumstances to suggest a large measure of disarmament until we can be sure that Prussian militarism is not likely to disturb the peace of Europe again. What is to be done if, out of zoo voters, two-thirds will give their vote one way but will not fight, and the remainder will not only vote but will fight if the vote goes against them? Any measure for disarmament must be accompanied by a right to inspect. It has always been a stumbling block in the past, and I suggest it will be necessary to examine the question how far it is possible to create a force to defend the world organization and to make it effective for preventing aggression by any one of its members.
With regard to the removal of the causes of war, the chief diifficulty is how to deal with the smaller nations and how far nations, particularly the great Powers, will be content to surrender any portion of their national sovereignty, and how far it is possible to confer in some respects international sovereignty on the world organization. The rights of minorities will also come up for discussion. The Germans came late into the overseas Colonial field and long ago they established landlocked Colonies in various parts of the American and European continents. Granted that some members of these pockets of Germans are hard working and industrious, they are apt to be led astray either by Prussian militarism or Nazi ideology, and these pockets become a malignant growth in the event of war between Germany and the countries in which they are situated.
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How far this question can be dealt with by a transfer of population is extremely difficult to decide, but a rearrangement of boundaries or a cession of territory under conditions might offer some solution. There are several other questions which ought to be placed in the category of these matters which are world-wide and international—the question of airways, the question of currencies, the question of raw materials, and the question of rare metals necessary for the production of munitions of war.
If the whole armistice commission were to sit to consider all these questions, its labours would last for many years. It is suggested, therefore, that they should be reported on by committees of the commission and, although for membership of the commission you must have regard to the claims of the victorious Allies, as far as the committees are concerned more attention should be paid to getting the best brains on every one of them. This is not the occasion to weary your Lordships with further details, but in the world organization to be set up there is no reason why groups of nations—say, for example, Great Britain and the United States or Great Britain, Russia, China and the United States—should not act together for the purpose of supplying mutual information for the removal of causes of misunderstanding and for economic collaboration, especially with regard to common currency control and free migration. If these matters are discussed and attended to, the sooner a satisfactory solution is reached the better. The horrors of war will not be forgotten for a while and the recollection of them will be the best incentive to people to come to an agreement. Do not let us leave to the youth of the country, in addition to a crushing burden of debt, the certainty of another total war in the not distant future.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, my noble friend Viscount Cecil, in the speech with which he introduced this subject, covered the ground comprehensively, and as I agree with everything that he said and with much that has been said by other noble Lords, I do not propose to traverse again the ground which they have already covered. Indeed, I will be even more moderate than the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and confine myself to one point—the point of security, the problem of the authority with power which the noble

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and most reverend Lord, Lord Lang, rightly described as a paramount question whether you are considering the past or whether you are considering the future.
But before I come to that let me say this in passing. In asking His Majesty's Government to elucidate as far as they can their post-war plans, we are not asking them to do anything which is an interference with, or an interruption of, the prosecution of the war. On the contrary, we are asking for something which may help them in the prosecution of the war, because to make known to the whole world what you propose to do with victory when you have got it, if those objects are also acceptable to other nations, may help you to achieve victory. I can understand, of course, the views of those who think it is undesirable for the Government to make commitments while fighting is still going on, which may prove embarrassing to them when the fighting ceases. I understand that and I quite agree with that point of view. I do not ask His Majesty's Government for any promises, least of all the kind of promises that have to be explained differently to different people. We had some of those promises during the last war and I hope they will not be repeated. I think we and our Allies in this war are strong enough not to have to buy any other support by promises of that kind, and we do not require to make any promises to each other except the promise to use the whole of our resources for the prosecution of the war.
Again, I do not ask His Majesty's Government to make any pledges which it may be possible for them to give, without consultation with our Allies. I only hope that they will not wait until the end of the war before entering into such consultation. I mention that because one passage of the Prime Minister's speech seemed to make that suggestion. The noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, will no doubt remember the point. The Prime Minister was envisaging that the war in Europe might be finished and the war in the Far East still continue. He said that on this assumption it would be our hope that the United Nations, headed by the three great victorious Powers, should immediately begin to confer upon the future world organization which is to be our safeguard against further wars. That seemed to suggest, though I feel sure that
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it is not the policy of His Majesty's Government, that only when that moment was reached would discussions begin. I hope that when my noble friend comes to reply he will clear up that point.
Now I come to the matter with which I wish to deal. Those people who think that victory is the only end make a very great mistake. Victory, like war itself, is not an end but a means, and the only end, the only war aim, is peace. But by peace I do not, of course, mean the merely negative condition of non-belligerency. By peace I mean freedom from the recurrence of war, and that is the only thing worth fighting for. People are apt to say: "We are fighting for freedom, we are fighting for justice, we are fighting for a good many things of that sort." But those are all illusions. France had freedom and justice before the war; so had Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Poland and Greece. All those countries had freedom then. It is true that they have lost it, but if all that we are hoping to do is to restore to them what they have lost, to give them back their independence and their freedom as insecure as those things were before, then our victory would be but a barren one. What I mean in speaking of "peace" is a condition in which all those things, freedom and justice together with industry, social welfare and life itself, are made secure; and what we want to know from His Majesty's Government is how they intend to use their victory in order to obtain that kind of security.
I do not think it is realized in this country how great is the anxiety of all the peoples of Europe on this subject. It has been my privilege to meet representatives of all the countries now occupied by Germany, and to have discussions with them. I find that this is the one subject on which they all feel intensely anxious. This is the one thing which they wish to have elucidated if possible. These are the kind of questions they put to me: "What is your country going to do after this war? Are you going to be good Europeans, or are you going to wash your hands of Europe and leave us alone? Are you going to say, as you said before, that the Armed Forces of your country will never be used except for British interests? Is that the attitude you are going to take up when the war is over? Are you going to help us economically, and, above all, are

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you going to protect us?" I know how would answer those questions if I had any authority to answer them. What I cannot tell these people now for certain is what the answer of His Majesty's Government would be. We have no authority which enables us to answer quite clearly questions of this kind. What I hope is that, as the result of the debate raised by my noble friend, we may get some assurance which will enable us to speak with more authority to our friends who put these questions.
We know, and they know, quite well, how, in the event of an Axis victory, Hitler will supply security. He will give them security behind the Armed Forces of the German Reich, and that is the only attractive feature in his New Order. It may perhaps surprise your Lordships to hear that there is any attractive feature in the Hitler New Order. But believe me that feature is very attractive now. Its attraction for the peoples of Europe is much greater than we are apt to believe. Under that New Order there would not, perhaps, be very march freedom. All the countries concerned would be dependent upon Germany, but many of them would even prefer dependence with security to a freedom which entails insecurity. And they say to us: "We know, of course, what kind of peace would follow an Axis victory; what we do not know, and what we want to know, is what kind of peace would follow an Allied victory." I think that they have a right to know that. It is, therefore, on that point only that I would press His Majesty's Government to give us as much help as they can.
Hitherto we have had the Atlantic Charter, to which my noble friend Lord Davies has referred, and we have had many speeches from important statesmen, both in this country and in the United States of America, to which my noble friend Viscount Cecil referred in his opening speech. Lastly, we have had that great broadcast speech by the Prime Minister in which he went a great deal further than lie had ever gone before. But none of these things answers specifically the point which I wish to press upon the attention of His Majesty's Government. We heard from the Prime Minister about a Council of Europe and a possible Council of Asia. I agree entirely with what the noble and most reverend Lord Lang said on that point. We heard about the four great
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Powers, and we heard also that those Powers would be prepared to respect the rights of the smaller nations. All that is very good as far as it goes, but the first right is the right to exist, and what these nations want to know is how that right is going to be secured to them by the four great Powers. I do not want to press my noble friend for any details about machinery. I entirely agree with my noble friend Viscount Cecil that it is not the machinery that matters; it is the will behind the machinery. The machinery that we have set up in this war has worked well, because it was machinery set up to carry out a will and a purpose which already existed. We wanted to pool our resources, and the Lease-Lend agreements were invented as machinery for doing so; therefore they have worked. No machinery will work effectively unless there is the will to use it. I ask my noble friend, therefore, to give us any assurances which he is able to give that the will exists amongst those who at the end of the war will have predominant power that they will use it not selfishly, not for the promotion of their own interests alone, but cooperatively, in order to provide that security under which all nations can live and develop.
Milton once said that "None can love freedom heartily but good men; all others love not freedom but licence." That, I think, is true also of nations. Only those nations can love freedom heartily who are prepared to be good neighbours. Before any international machinery can work, nations must give proof that they are prepared to accept a general standard of conduct and behaviour, the same kind of standard which is accepted by individuals in a civilized State. In any society the freedom of an individual is necessarily restricted by consideration for the interests of his neighbours. A man may get drunk, if he pleases, in his own house; but, if his drunkenness takes the form of brawling in the streets, and interferes with the welfare of others, his freedom is restricted. That is something which is perfectly understood in any society of individuals, and not only understood but accepted; but it is not yet understood and accepted in the society of nations. I repeat that I do not ask His Majesty's Government to plunge into details, to prescribe the exact grouping of States, or to lay down precise machinery for their co-operation. I quote from the

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speech of the Prime Minister; those are things which he deprecated. What I do ask is that they will remember the intense anxiety of all nations on this question of security, and that they will tell us as often and as clearly as they can—because these things bear repeating—how they intend to use the power which they and their Allies will possess when this war is over.
Let me conclude by putting my point in the form of five specific questions to my noble friend the Leader of the House. First of all, can be give us an assurance that, having restored their independence to the occupied countries, we intend to collaborate with them to secure the economic conditions which will enable them to thrive? Secondly, if the international society which we hope to establish—whether it be the or whether it be a, whether it be an authority or a group of authorities—is set up, if it gives greater freedom to its members than would Hitler's New Order, will it afford them equal security? Thirdly, what contribution are His Majesty's Government prepared to make to the provision of that security? Are they prepared to abandon finally that policy, which was so often and so disastrously reiterated in the years immediately preceding this war, that the Armed Forces of this country would never be used except for the defence of British interests? I should like to know whether His Majesty's Government are prepared finally to abandon that policy. Lastly, at the end of this war we and our Allies will possess almost a monopoly of physical force. We shall have that power which Hitler aimed at obtaining for the benefit of Germany alone. Are we going to use it as he would have used it, selfishly? If so, we shall most certainly lose it, just as he is losing it. Or are we going to use it, not for the protection of national interests alone, but as the starting-point of a system of general security, for the benefit of peace and freedom in the whole world?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, public opinion in the United Nations seems happily to be very largely agreed that acts of aggression such as have been committed by Germany and by Japan shall never happen again. It is also agreed that the best method of preventing such happenings, or even aspirations towards such happenings, is he establishment of
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an International Authority sufficiently powerful to maintain peace, and, above all, willing to do so should the occasion arise. I too, like the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, was rather troubled by that passage in the remarkable broadcast of the Prime Minister on March 21 in which he said that our hope was that, once Hitler had been defeated, the United Nations, headed by the three great victorious Powers, would immediately confer about the future world organization which was to be our safeguard against further wars. Clearly the Prime Minister was speaking on the assumption that the war with Japan was still being prosecuted, and I assume that it was for that very logical reason that he made no specific mention of China.
Naturally, we all share the Prime Minister's opinion that our supreme task is the defeat of Hitler, followed by the punishment of Japan and the rescue of China, and that nothing should be allowed to divert our energies from those purposes. Nevertheless, I do wonder whether the United Nations would not be wise to begin consultations among themselves at a rather earlier date than that suggested by the Prime Minister in his broadcast. The problem is very complicated, and it seems to me that it would be highly desirable that the ground should be cleared by at least preliminary talks, even if a final and definite scheme cannot yet emerge. I was, therefore, particularly glad to learn from the statement made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in another place that considerable progress had been made and important steps had already been taken in that direction. I hope that in any event His Majesty's Government are preparing, and indeed have completed, their own studies of this matter, so that they will have a solid foundation on which to build.
There can be no doubt that the Report of the Phillimore Committee, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, was of extreme value to those who drafted the constitution of the League of Nations. I should like to say with what great pleasure I listened to the Prime Minister's tribute to the League, to the work which it had done and, above all, to the spirit in which that work was undertaken. With all due deference I fear I do not agree with noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, as to the omission of the definite or indefinite article. In my view there must

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be an or the International Authority if you really mean to preserve peace, and I believe that to be the primary international objective. I do not intend to go into the question of the nature of the International Authority, which was dealt with by Lord Cecil of Chelwood. I agree with him that a simple gentleman's agreement is insufficient, and that you cannot go as far as federation—that is not practical politics. Therefore you come back to the third course, which is a written constitution. But I would also beg His Majesty's Government to bear in mind that such a written constitution ought not to be over-elaborate. It ought to be of a kind which would enable you to deal with each case on its merits, and not to be so enchained by hard-and-fast rules that you simply have to deal with every case according to those rules.
The Motion which the noble Viscount has on the Paper refers to an International Authority set up "with a view to the maintenance of peace and the encouragement of international co-operation." I assume that by the latter phrase he means the international pursuit of the objectives laid down in the Atlantic Charter and in the Anglo-Soviet Treaty. I am very glad that he has linked the two aims together, as I cannot imagine the establishment of an international organization for the sole purpose of preserving peace, because this would imply intervention by the institution only on the, I hope, rare occasions when peace was threatened. I feel that such an organization would be likely to suffer very seriously from atrophy, and when the testing time arrived, if it ever did arrive, then the machinery might be too rusty to function adequately. With the combination of the two objects you get a living and active organization, capable, I hope, of fulfilling the desires and objects of its founders.
If I venture on some reflections on certain of the observations made in the Prime Minister's broadcast, it is not from any desire to criticize. Indeed, I greatly admired the general thesis, though I seem to recognize in it rather the broad sweep of the brush of the painter than the meticulous handicraft of the bricklayer. But I have had experiences which may be of some interest to your Lordships, and indeed of some use to His Majesty's Government when they come formally to consider
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their future policy. The Prime Minister remarked that
"… under a world institution embodying or representing the United Nations, and some day all nations, there should come into being a Council of Europe and a Council of Asia."
I fully agree, but it is to my mind essential that the world institution should be firmly established before either or both of those branches are set up. The central organization is vital because questions of political, economic, and even social importance affect the whole world, and not one continent alone.
Your Lordships may remember that in 1930, on the initiative of M. Briand, that great European statesman, a European Federal Union was established with its headquarters in Geneva. The Union consisted of twenty-seven European Nations, and these nations agreed that close co-operation in all international activities was of capital importance for the maintenance of peace. The Union, of which I had the honour to be appointed secretary, was very closely linked to the League. But it became evident in a comparatively short time that the Union was hardly likely to become an effective body, as compared with the Assembly and Council of the League itself. There were various reasons for the declension of the Union. In the first place experience showed, as I have already pointed out, that important questions of policy or of economics did not affect Europe alone. They affected the world as a whole, and the preservation of peace is not of continental, but of universal, concern.
But there was another factor. When a political dispute occurred between European States—and by political disputes I mean disputes which are not suitable for submission to a purely legal tribunal—we found that the presence of representatives of completely disinterested Powers proved to be of particular value. We had the greatest difficulty in a dispute in which a great Power was involved to persuade the representative of any other great Power to sit on a committee for the purpose of adjudicating on the dispute. One great Power was unwilling to run the risk of offending another great Power by giving an opinion which might be resented, or which might be attributed to jealousy or to a desire to obtain some political advantage. This was particularly the case as regards Europe, and it is a

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danger which must be foreseen. Unhappily, similar apprehensions prevailed among the smaller European Powers, though honourable exceptions must be made in favour, for instance, of some of the Scandinavian countries and of Holland. Therefore, the experience I have had in this connexion tells heavily in favour of a wide range of disinterested Powers who can be drawn upon to advise how a particular dispute should be settled, and whose verdict is likely to be acceptable not only because it will be based solely on the merits of the case, but also—and this is even more important—because it will be generally recognized to be so based. I must not be thought to imply that I would not wish to see European and Asiatic Councils set up in due course and that they will not find much useful work to do; but I hold strongly that there must be in cases of importance an easy recourse to a universal and central institution.
The other point on which I desire to make a few comments, which was also referred to in the Prime Minister's broadcast, is the grouping or confederation of certain States inside the European Council. The theory is certainly attractive and it has worked well in certain instances in the past. The Little Entente used to have one member on the Council of the League, chosen, if I remember rightly, by rotation, and the Scandinavian States pursued a very similar policy. A word of warning is necessary. Such groupings are not easy to define. In any group the interests of the participating Powers must be very similar. Unhappily, as we know too well, it is often between neighbours that disputes arise. Therefore I personally doubt whether any such groupings can be effected on a considerable scale. Nevertheless the smaller States have a very important part to play in world organization. Their very diversity gives them a peculiar value. It is a question of striking a balance. My experience has been that when the great Powers are united, things go easily. When they disagree, things become difficult. It is in this latter case that the presence of the smaller Powers can be very beneficial. The smaller Powers do not wish to lead the world. What they wish is to be helpful, and we should allow them to be so. It is true that, occasionally, some of their representatives have suffered from what
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I may call Great Power phobia, but that illness is usually transient and not very serious.
It is clear that the establishment of an International Authority necessitates some surrender of sovereignty on the part of the States that form that Authority. But such surrender is implicit in every treaty made by this country or any other country, and surely it is very desirable that every State should make this very small surrender of authority in order that the remainder of its sovereignty, which is by far the greater part of it, should be preserved and secured. That is why I like the name "United Nations" particularly. It recognizes that nations are individual in character, and it also recognizes that there must be a unity between them. If we can achieve the ideal which is implied in the name United Nations, then we can regard the future of the world with hope.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, I rise for a moment to call attention to one matter only, but a matter of principle which arises directly out of the international situation which led to the war. When planning the establishment of a proper International Authority we shall come to grief again unless there is a moral standard for international conduct which the nations composing that Authority agree to accept. Reference to the League of Nations has necessarily been made during this debate, which was so splendidly opened by the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil. I am sure we have learnt much from the illuminating contribution made by the noble Earl, Lord Perth, who knows so very much, from inside experience, of the working of the League. Max Huber, who is known to some of your Lordships as a former President of the Permanent Court of International Justice at The Hague and a great student of International Law, makes a profound remark on this point. In one of his writings, after praising the greatness of the idea of the League of Nations, and its uniqueness and audacity bearing in mind the obstacles produced by the concept of the sovereignty of the State, asks "whether such a broad and comprehensive community of law and peace as the League of Nations desires to be is possible, or at least is permanently possible, without a common ethos to support this legal system." In other words, he declares that there must be not only a legal system, but a sincere

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belief in law and justice above the separate States.
I should like to quote the Pope in his fifth Peace Point on Christmas Eve, 1939, when he said
"Even the best and most detailed regulations will be imperfect and foredoomed to failure unless the peoples and those who govern them submit willingly to the influence of that spirit which alone can give life, authority, and binding force to the dead-letter of international agreements. They must develop that sense of deep and keen responsibility which measures and weighs human statutes according to the sacred and inviolable standards of the law of God."
These are pregnant and significant words, and I am quite sure that, somehow or other, the acceptance of such an absolute law with a common ethos—an absolute law possibly embodying the rights of man—has got to be secured in the dealings of nations with one another if any reasonable civilization is to survive. There is hardly any clearer lesson to be learnt from history, including all our pre-war experience, than this. The question of how to secure its acceptance by the nations composing the International Authority is a very difficult one. It might be by the drawing up of a code of common rules clearly inspired by the principle of justice. It might be by some association between the International Authority and the representatives of the living religions of the world which agree in worshipping a Sovereign Creator—an association which would give the representatives of these religions a right of access to the International Authority on matters concerning international morality; or it might be by some other way. I know—I speak humbly—it is very difficult; but I hope that the whole notion of some spiritual and moral authority which the nations ought to acknowledge will not be ruled out of all consideration as it was ruled out twenty-four years ago.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I rise for a very few minutes only to give general support, as far as I can, to the noble Viscount who is responsible for the Motion before the House. I am sure that all your Lordships will agree that this House, as has been proved to-day, is singularly capable of making an invaluable contribution to the consideration of this series of problems. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said that the outstanding inquiry in the minds of the smaller nations is,
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in the first place, "How are we going to be secured against future aggression or danger?" When the war ends, no doubt, the sense of danger being very near, it will be common for the nations to be willing to accept the protection, on paper, of the victorious Powers, but we are all painfully aware of how soon these first impressions wear off and how soon national and narrower considerations come to the front. I shall have a word to say about that in referring to economic questions in a moment.
I think that the noble Lord has stressed the first point of importance in urging that His Majesty's Government, in concert with the Allied Nations, shall make the most rapid progress possible (without precise definition) in agreeing upon the general form of machinery which will secure peace. That system, however, will clearly have to be developed later on into something more long-standing. I cannot imagine any Europe being secure whilst the German youth is possessed of the mind that it now possesses, and it will be a long time before that disposition is altered or eradicated. Therefore not only must we secure the immediate disarmament of Germany, but there must be a system sufficiently agreed upon which will lead to a long-continued control of the capacity of nations to prepare to make war on their neighbours. I have not yet seen any suggestion of approach to a consideration of what that international organization is going to be.
I am afraid I do not agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, in his objection to the definite article. I cannot imagine that peace—I am not now speaking of economic matters—can be safeguarded in the world unless there is an International Authority of some kind. It cannot be left at large. Therefore I think, so far as the maintenance of peace and the safeguarding of nations from war is concerned, we must have an authority, and in that respect I share the disappointment of other noble Lords regarding the Prime Minister's broadcast, though I was pleased with it in many other respects. I could not see that a Council of Europe or a Council of Asia or the other suggestions made in that broadcast gave us any method of approach to the formation of the authority that will be necessary to secure the maintenance of peace, not only in Europe, but in the world.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: May I interrupt the noble Lord to remind him that the Prime Minister said his Council of Europe must work under a world institution, a view that I would myself support, but the world organization must be something more than a single centralized authority?
LORD ADDISON: Yes, I would accept that correction, but I am speaking now purely of the authority which would safeguard the world from war. I am speaking solely of that function and not of others. I think that is in many respects, and will have to be, a separate function. It will have to be a separate authority from the authority that deals with many other matters. I return to the expression of disappointment I recorded, but I think we might quite properly ask the noble Viscount opposite to help us a little with regard to the second part of the Motion. I think we have to fear at the end of hostilities an immediate resurrection of nationalism. That would be an imminent danger.
I shall never forget what happened at the end of the last war. Notwithstanding all the lip service that had been given to the common responsibilities of nations to one another, there was immediately a rush to give expression to narrow, national considerations and it is greatly to be feared that will recur. It is natural, just as within twenty-four hours—a correct statement in time—of the signing of the armistice we had people waiting on the stairs in Whitehall Gardens to demand the removal of this Control or that Control simply because they wanted to get busy buying cotton or whatever it was. It is quite legitimate and quite natural that in regard to a particular trade and business, that instinct comes to the top at once. They clamoured for the removal, and in many cases obtained the removal, of national and international Controls which we were very short-sighted in removing. That is literally what happened and I am afraid it will happen again. And what happens in the personal sphere may also happen in the national sphere.
We know that the different nations, especially the smaller nations, will be very hungry and that they will want their food needs ministered to as promptly as possible. There will also be a clamour for the restoration of their industries and for the supply of materials. That is only natural; it is indeed, I think, inevitable
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that narrow, nationalistic considerations will emerge and become exceedingly vocal quite soon after the conclusion of hostilities. What are we to infer from that? I think we are to infer that it is essential, if the world is to be safeguarded against the dangers that will arise from the too precipitate assertion of nationalist considerations, that we must be provided in advance with an adequate form of authority which will guide and control these things internationally. We shall otherwise, I am afraid, be precipitated into great disorder.
We have been greatly encouraged lately by the disposition which His Majesty's Government have shown, and very actively shown, in taking account of some of these things beforehand. The Leith-Ross Committee is exceedingly active, as we know, and is, I believe, promoting not only an understanding but arrangements whereby the feeding of hungry nations may be dealt with at an early stage. But as yet, I believe, these discussions practically lie between the United States and ourselves. One cannot but think, if one views the tremendous needs for food, restoration, machinery, material and everything else that will be insistent in those immense tracts of country which have been completely laid bare, that it is most urgent that these Powers should be brought into active counsel as soon as possible to discuss the ways and means agreed between the Allied Nations for dealing with them. I cannot but think that there would have to be international authorities, perhaps under one general direction or superintendence, but international authorities of quite a number of kinds.
I entirely associate myself there with the noble Viscount below the gangway. It would be a first-class blunder at this time to anticipate any hard-and-fast organization. Clearly it will have to be a developing organization and it will have to be in diverse forms. I do not know what is going to be done about finance. I am quite unable to discuss the somewhat bewildering White Paper that has already been issued, and I have not had the advantage of seeing the one issued in the United States. It is certain, however, in my opinion that arrangements will have to be made beforehand with regard to the control of exchanges and the facilitating of international transactions either by a

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common international currency or in some other workable fashion. Clamour from the devastated nations, through the whole of Asia as well as Europe, will be so insistent that there must be prepared in advance a sufficiency of machinery for dealing with it fairly rapidly. One welcomes most heartily the activities of Sir Frederick Leith-Ross and others, inspired I know by the Foreign Office and the Government. But there is this to be said also. Apart from safeguarding against future wars, I hope that the latter part of the noble Viscount's Motion, with regard to the encouragement of international cooperation, will be worked on so far as it is practicable during war-time to get the Allied Nations together to work upon it, because unless some International Authority is set up to relieve the poverty which oppresses hundreds of millions of the world's primary producers, you will never have begun to remove the biggest cause of discontent.
That is a great subject by itself and I will not do more now than indicate it. But I cannot imagine that in the time before us there will be anything more difficult for statesmen than to keep in its proper place the assertion of nationality, and to fashion a series of instruments which will both help to secure peace and supply the immediate needs of the desolated countries as well as establish an economic international system which will have for its chief objective the lifting of the poverty of the world's primary producers. Most of all I would like to express one's hearty concurrence with the statement of the noble Viscount that it depends more than all upon the mobilization of good will. It is easier to mobilize good will in time of danger than it is when the danger is past. Therefore I hope, realizing how vast and difficult these problems are, that His Majesty's Government will lose no opportunity of mobilizing all the good will they possibly
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can to help them and the Allied nations to make some progress in these immensely difficult matters. As the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, we have mobilized good will to enable us to fight for victory. It will need an inspiring international leadership of a continued kind to mobilize the same measure of good will to achieve the victory of peace.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that this debate be now adjourned.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Viscount Maugham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.

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