Sitting of 7 October 1942

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  WAR CRIMINALS (PUNISHMENT)
  Mr. Martinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the decision announced by His Majesty's Government to bring to trial officials, etc., of Axis States responsible for outrages on nationals of conquered States has been taken in conjunction with our Allies of the United Nations?
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the Prime Minister's statement in the House of Commons on 8th September, when he identified His Majesty's Government with an earlier statement on this subject made by President Roosevelt on 22nd August. I can assure my hon. Friend that His Majesty's Government are in close consultation with the Dominion Governments, the United States Government and with the Governments of those among the United Nations whose nationals have suffered from Axis oppression regarding the policy to be adopted for the punishment of war criminals.
  Mr. Martin: May I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that in some cases these trials may take on a somewhat farcical character as a result of the public opinion of the world concerning the criminals involved, and will he take such steps as are possible to see that the forms of justice as distinct from justice itself are not brought into dispute?
  Mr. Eden: That point is very much in our minds.

  MANCHURIA
  Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether
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  he will ensure that in all official communications and at all Press conferences, that portion of China north of the Great Wall, is referred to by its correct name of Manchuria, instead of by the Japanese name of Manchukuo, as this latter name is repugnant to our Chinese Allies?
  Mr. Eden: In all official communications the term "Manchuria" is used. Departments of His Majesty's Government are being reminded that the term "Manchukuo" should not be used, whether at Press conferences or elsewhere.
  Mr. Dugdale: Will the Minister give as much publicity as possible to this to see that the term is not used in the Press?
  Mr. Eden: I expect it will be noted.
  Mr. Hannah: Is it not a fact that the two districts are not co-terminous and that Manchukuo is bigger than Manchuria?
  Mr. Eden: My hon. Friend is giving information.

  PATOS (CESSION TO VENEZUELA)
  Flight-Lieutenant Ralph Ethertonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what British territory has recently been transferred to Venezuela; and under what conditions?
  Mr. Eden: I presume that my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the cession to Venezuela of the small island of Patos, in virtue of the treaty concluded between the Venezuelan Government and His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom on 26th February last. This treaty was approved by both Houses of Parliament in May and, having duly received the Royal Assent, was ratified on behalf of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom on 22nd September. The circumstances in which were concluded this treaty and the companion treaty, providing for the allocation as between the two Powers of the submarine areas of the Gulf of Paria, were explained to the House by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies on 14th May last, as part of a general understanding equally agreeable to the United States of Venezuela and to ourselves.

  FIGHTING FRANCE
  Miss Wardasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give an assurance that the declaration of policy regarding the Fighting French, set out in a joint communiqué with the Soviet Government published on 28th September, denotes no change of policy so far as His Majesty's Government is concerned and that it remains the same as previously accepted by the Fighting French?
  Mr. Eden: The attitude of His Majesty's Government towards Fighting France and the French National Committee was defined in the statements published in London on 14th July last, and is in no way affected by the joint communiqué issued on 28th September by the National Committee and the Soviet Government.
  Miss Ward: Has my right hon. Friend any information that the Fighting French are negotiating an agreement with the Soviet Union?
  Mr. Eden: I should like to have notice of that Question.

  BRITISH SUBJECTS AND PRISONERS OF WAR, FAR EAST (TREATMENT)
  Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement in regard to the treatment of British subjects detained by the Japanese in the Far East; and when complete lists of prisoners may be expected to reach this country?
  Mr. Eden: As the reply is rather long and is necessarily somewhat detailed, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the reply:
  According to such information as is available the position in the various areas is as follows:
  Hong Kong.—Conditions have shown some improvement since the early days but the general health of the internees has seriously suffered from lack of proper food and medicines. 1,000 tons of food, clothing and medicines have reached Hong Kong while a sum of money has been sent to the International Red Cross Committee delegate for relief purposes.
  Malaya.—Information is practically unobtainable. No International Red Cross Committee delegate has been appointed up to the present despite repeated requests to the Japanese Government to permit such an appointment. The Japanese Government do not allow the Protecting Power to function in the occupied territories and in the absence in Malaya either of a representative of the Protecting Power or of a Red Cross delegate, no neutral channel for information as to the welfare of British subjects there is available.
  China.—A report has been received of the internment of 59 British subjects including naval ratings and merchant seamen. At the time of the report parcels sent by the British Association at Shanghai had not been distributed. At Canton 70 British subjects were interned in a hotel. They were reasonably well treated and were allowed to draw on their bank accounts for their subsistence. All British subjects at Swatow were reported interned last April. No news has been received of their subsequent release.
  Japan.—According to a recent report all British subjects have been interned. Visits to them are forbidden. Lists of internees have been promised. There were already internment camps at Tokyo, Kobe, Yokohama, Nagasaki and Sendai, containing 145 British subjects. Conditions at these camps varied. Food was on the whole adequate, though with one exception not abundant, but could be supplemented from outside; accommodation is described as the best available, although not up to European standards, except at Kobe, where one camp was in a badly situated third class native hotel. No criticism of health or sanitary conditions was put forward. Facilities for exercise were limited, but at one camp included tennis and walks. In at least one camp occasional visits were allowed.
  Netherland East Indies.—The only information received is that 15 British subjects were interned in May and were being well treated.
  Philippines.—All British subjects of European descent, numbering nearly 2,000, have been interned except natives of Eire, but temporary passes to reside outside have been granted in the case of men over 60, expectant mothers and children. The majority are interned at the University of Manila. They receive

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  a minimum of food from the Philippine Red Cross, but may supplement this from outside. Conditions are less satisfactory in the camps at Baguio, Davao and Cebu, where internees' money has been taken away and used for the purchase of food. British subjects in China and Japan may receive through the Protecting Power cash advances from British funds for their maintenance. Complete lists of prisoners of war have not yet been received, but the Japanese Government are being continually pressed to suppy them. I regret to be unable to state when they may be expected.

  SUEZ CANAL (ANNUAL RETURN)
  Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the Suez Canal Annual Return for 1941 will be published?
  Mr. Eden: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to his Question on 20th November last, to which I have nothing to add.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Civilian Shoes
    Mr. Walter Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will issue an instruction to the effect that the personnel of the Royal Air Force may be allowed to wear civilian shoes during off duty hours, thus bringing them into line with their colleagues in the Army?
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): This matter has recently been under review and a regulation permitting Royal Air Force personnel to wear shoes of a suitable type when off duty will shortly be made.

    Flying Instructors (Promotion)
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will inquire into the present system of promotion for officers at the elementary flying training schools, in view of the fact that it is practically impossible for a working flying instructor to be promoted above the rank of flight-lieutenant?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I recognise the value of the training work upon which these officers are engaged. The promotion
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    prospects of the officers referred to by my hon. Friend were investigated in the autumn of last year when it was decided that promotion to squadron leader, supernumerary to the war establishment, could be granted to those who had completed two years' war service in the rank of flight-lieutenant, who had been recommended by their Air Officers Commanding and were generally suitable for promotion.

    Women's Auxiliary Air Force
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in an endeavour to speed up recruitment in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force, he will give favourable consideration to a proposal that some bonus reward or other recognition be given to all present serving personnel who enrol one recruit?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for his suggestion but I regret that for a variety of reasons it has not been found desirable to adopt it.
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied that his order that Women's Auxiliary Air Force officers and non-commissioned officers shall only contribute two-thirds of the subscription charged to Royal Air Force personnel in messes pro- vided for the joint use of both Services is adhered to?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir, but if my hon. and gallant Friend is aware of any cases in which the order is not being complied with and will let me know, I shall be pleased to look into them.

    Enemy Raids (Counter Measures)
    Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will consider instructing the pilots of. our machines operating over British coasts not to fly low on approaching such coasts where this can be avoided, so that defensive action can be taken against enemy aeroplanes with the minimum of delay?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I am afraid it would not be in the public interest to say more than I did in reply to the hon. Baronet's Question on 30th September.
    Sir L. Lyle: Would it be going too far to ask my right hon. Friend whether such instructions could be given regarding low

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    flying, so that every low-flying plane approaching the coast could be regarded as an enemy and many precious moments saved for the defences?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I am sure that if I stated in this House this morning what the Commander-in-Chief's instructions were he would alter them this afternoon.
    Sir L. Lyleasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that in the case of the recent enemy attack on a village school whereby a number of young children were killed and injured, the plane skimmed the roofs of adjacent houses; and whether it was fired at by our troops and in what way?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The enemy aircraft in question operated in cloud cover and emerged only to drop its bombs. While over this country, it was engaged by antiaircraft batteries and was pursued by fighters; but weather conditions unfortunately enabled it to escape.

    Awards
    Flight-Lieutenant Ralph Ethertonasked the Secretary of State for Air what award there is similar to the Territorial Decoration available for the Royal Air Force; what are the conditions governing such award; and to whom can it be awarded?
    Sir A. Sinclair: As announced in the "London Gazette" of nth September an Air Efficiency Award has been instituted for long and meritorious service in the Auxiliary and Volunteer Air Forces of the Empire. I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of the Air Ministry Order promulgating the conditions.
    Mr. Perkins: Are the Reserve of Air Force Officers eligible for this award?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No. Sir. This applies only to civilians who give their 'time voluntarily in time of peace to learn the job of the Royal Air Force.
    Flight-Lieutenant Etherton: Is there any award available for the Auxiliary Air Force?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir, certainly for the Auxiliary Air Force.
    Mr. Perkins: What is the difference between the two?

    Air Training Corps (Winter Clothing)
    Flight-Lieutenant Ethertonasked the Secretary of State for Air what pro vision is to be made for greatcoats or other extra covering for the Air Training Corps this winter?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom).
    Mr. Bossom: Would it be possible to give something in addition to the rubber capes, which are not very warm for these boys?
    Sir A. Sinclair: It is the best that can be done. We have been at this for some time.

    Bomber Aircraft Losses (Germany and Northern Europe)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will state the total losses of bombing aircraft over Germany and Northern Europe for the nine months ending 30th September, 1942, or near date?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The number of our bomber aircraft reported lost over Germany and Northern Europe in the nine months ended 30th September, 1942, is 1,082.
    Mr. Glenvil Hallasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the substantial losses to aircraft in recent night raids over Germany, he is satisfied that Bomber Command takes every pre caution against unnecessary risk in the instructions it issues to crews taking part in operations?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Hall: If my right hon. Friend is satisfied, why is it that these losses are so much greater than those of Allied forces, and is he aware that there is a great deal of misgiving on this matter?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No Allied forces have had to face the tremendous strength of the German night fighters and anti-aircraft and searchlight defences in Western Germany. A better criterion is this, that our forces in making deep penetration into Germany in face of these powerful defences are suffering a lower rate of casualties than the German air force in attacking this country.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Does not aggressive action cost more than merely passive action?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Is it not a fact that too precise directions are given to pilots and very little is left to their discretion on the spot, and that this results in undue risk and loss of valuable men and aircraft?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir, most certainly not. The truth is that by extraordinary tactical resource and ingenuity, the Commander-in-Chief and Staff of Bomber Command are keeping the losses extraordinarily low.
    Mr. Granville: Do these figures include machines which crash on the territory of this country and are total losses?
    Sir A. Sinclair: They include what is asked for in the Question.

  WEST AFRICA (EDUCATION)
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) what higher education establishments in West Africa remain able to carry on their work; whether steps are being taken to have restored the premises taken for other purposes by the authorities; and whether he will bring into review the whole subject of higher education facilities in West Africa;
  (2), whether Umuahia College is still requisitioned by the authorities; and is he aware of the harm done to West African education by requisitioning these buildings' for purposes of less importance than education?
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Harold Macmillan): A number of secondary and post-secondary educational institutions in West Africa have been requisitioned, either wholly or in part, for war purposes, but it would not be in the public interest to give details. In some cases alternative accommodation has been provided. I can assure my hon. Friend that the questions of the restoration of the buildings to their original purpose and of the provision of alternative accommodation are being actively pursued. With regard to the last part of the first Question, this matter is engaging the attention of my Noble Friend.
  Mr. Adams: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that to requisition a college, scatter the students and take the property for other purposes is very reactionary in any event?
  Mr. Macmillan: I very much deplore it, but the war itself is a very reactionary measure.
  Mr. J. J. Davidson: Has this property been taken in order to carry on successfully the prosecution of the war, and, if so, is not that already done in many schools in the country?

  SEYCHELLES (TROOPS' HEALTH)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give consideration to the incidence of the war on the Seychelles; whether any competent medical service has been instituted to combat venereal disease and tuberculosis; whether he is aware of the high mortality rates of Seychelles soldiers serving outside their own islands in the last war; and whether, in view of this, he will make representations to secure the retention of Seychelles troops in their own islands instead of those islands being garrisoned by other colonial troops?
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: As regards venereal disease, since the reply given by my predecessor to a similar Question in this House on the 17th December last year, a new Senior Medical Officer has been appointed, one of whose principal duties will be to deal with the problems of venereal disease and tuberculosis. My Noble Friend has no reason to believe that the mortality rate of Seychelles troops outside the Colony during the present war is abnormally high, and does not consider that it would be in the best interests either of the Colony itself or of the war effort as a whole to press for their return.
  Mr. Sorensen: Why are Seychelles troops sent out of the islands and troops from other Colonies let in? In the circumstances could not the right hon. Gentleman make a recommendation that Seychelles troops should be retained in their own islands?
  Mr. Macmillan: I think if the hon. Member considers what his suggestion involves—considerable shipping movements for large distances—he will see that it is impracticable.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is it not likely to reduce the amount of shipping employed?
  Mr. Macmillan: No, because Seychelles troops are already serving outside the islands.

  BRITISH GUIANA (CONDITIONS)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the hardship and unemployment in British Guiana; whether adequate foodstuffs and medical supplies are now available; and what action has been taken to absorb the unemployed and to meet distress in the Colony?
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: So far as my information goes, supplies of foodstuffs and medical stores are in general available, except that there was recently a shortage of flour, which has now been relieved. With regard to the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I am giving today to my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley).
  Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there have been signs of disturbance in this Colony, and will he make inquiries to see how far it is strained?
  Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir. We are in touch with the situation, but the movement of foodstuffs and supplies needs constant attention and is increasingly difficult. There has been this temporary shortage, which I am glad to say has been relieved.
  Mr. Shinwell: If there is much unemployment in the Colonies, might it not be worth while to consider whether we can use some of the man-power in certain directions in this country?
  Mr. Macmillan: There are two purposes for which we are using it, first, in their own country, by a great drive to increase local food production. Its use outside the country is again limited by shipping difficulties.
  Dr. Morgan: Is there a good supply of quinine?
  Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir.

  PALESTINE

    Irrigation Ordinances
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the criticism expressed in Palestine against the operation of the Palestine Irrigation Ordinances as at present: drafted; and whether he will give further consideration to the same in the light of this local opposition?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, my Noble Friend is awaiting the High Commissioner's views on the representations which have been made in Palestine regarding the proposed Irrigation Ordinances.

    Home Defence
    Miss Rathboneasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what arrangements have been made for the mobilisation of Jews in Palestine for Home Guard duties; and whether he will take advantage of the offer which has been made for the enlistment of some thousands of Jews in the urban areas where little has been done hitherto apart from the mixed unit of the Palestine Volunteer Force, which is limited to 2,000 men?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: As regards the first part of the Question, I would invite the attention of my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. D. Adams) on 1st July, and to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War on 6th August, regarding the enrolment of 1,500 additional recruits for the Jewish Rural Special Police and the provision of training facilities and equipment for these and for existing units. The number of Jews serving in the various police formations has now reached a total of nearly 25,000. As regards the second part of the Question, difficulties in providing instructors and equipment and of the commitments already undertaken in respect of the existing police formations and of the Palestine Volunteer Force make this proposal impracticable.
    Miss Rathbone: Has there been no progress since 6th August, in view of the fact that certain promises were given since that date of the further utilisation of the Palestinian Force?
    Mr. Macmillan: I think the hon. Lady has in mind the recruiting of the new Palestinian Regiment. That, of course, is going ahead under the auspices of the War Office. With regard to the police, the position is as I have stated. We are making increased progress with the rural police, but it is not possible to go further at present because of shortage of instructors.
    Miss Rathbone: Can we be satisfied that there is no other objection except shortage of equipment and so forth?
    Mr. Macmillan: We will press forward as fast as we can, having regard to all the other demands upon man-power and so on for war purposes.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: How long will the equipment be?

  COAL DUMP, SOLIHULL
  Sir John Mellorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport the percentage of railway wagons unloaded at the Solihull reserve coal dump up to 31st August, 1942, which were damaged in the course of unloading; and what action he has taken to prevent similar damage occurring elsewhere?
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): Of the wagons unloaded at Solihull reserve coal dump, 16⅔ per cent. were damaged. To the great majority the damage was only superficial, and it is not clear that all of it was caused by the unloading of the coal. I have, however, asked the railway company for a report.
  Sir J. Mellor: Has the hon. Gentleman made the strong representations which he promised he would make if my figures proved to be anything like correct?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. I first wanted to establish the facts. I have established the fact that practically all the damage was merely superficial and could be made good in less than a day, while, on the other hand, the advantages of the method of unloading were very considerable, but I am not yet satisfied that all proper precautions were taken.

  CLYDE SHIPYARD WORKERS (TRANSPORT)
  Mr. Kirkwoodasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware of the long hours of travel to and from work incurred by shipyard workers on the Clyde owing to the lack of housing facilities in the neighbourhood of their work; and, in view of the approach of winter and the reduction of travel facilities owing to the fuel situation, what steps is he taking to ensure these workers being able to reach their work?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The Transport Consultative Committee for the Clyde, in conjunction with representatives of the Shipbuilders' Association and the Trade Unions, has formulated a scheme to improve travelling facilities for shipyard workers on the north bank by the staggering of working hours, but so far the scheme has not been accepted. The employers generally expressed the view that the transport difficulties experienced in the early months of the war have been largely overcome, but in order to secure further improvement, I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would use his influence to help us in obtaining acceptance of the scheme of staggering which would enable the transport undertakings to improve the travel facilities for the workers.
  Mr. Kirkwood: I will do all I can to assist, but I want my hon. Friend's Department to do all in their power to meet their obligations. It should not be left to anyone like me to reorganise transport.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I am most grateful for my hon. Friend's promise of assistance, and I promise him in return that our Regional Transport Commissioner will continue to do all he can to help the workers. He has already adopted special measures to make their travelling better.
  Mr. Gallacher: Will the hon. Gentleman take a job for one day and travel home one night, and I can guarantee that the next day he will stagger?
  Mr. Davidson: From what source does the opposition come to this scheme? Is it from both employers and unions?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The employers have reported that a large number of the workpeople are not yet convinced that it is necessary or desirable. My belief is that

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  on both the employers' and workers' sides there are still prejudices, which I hope will be overcome.

  CHEAP DAY FARES, LONDON
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether, in view of the increased expense of travelling imposed on many people through the abolition of cheap-day fares in and to London, he is prepared to reinstate these fares where it can be shown that their abolition has not resulted in fewer trains or omnibuses being run or passengers carried; whether he will avoid imposing extra financial burdens on passengers who will still have to travel whatever the fare may be; and whether part of the intention in abolishing cheap fares is to increase the revenue from transport?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I am afraid that my hon. Friend's suggestion would prove impracticable. While my Noble Friend appreciates that the withdrawal of the cheapday fare may in some cases increase the cost of essential travel, he considers that it was a necessary measure, and that to make exceptions would create unmanageable problems. I would remind my hon. Friend that, except for local journeys on the railways of the London Passenger Transport Board, monthly return rail tickets are now available wherever the cheap-day rail tickets have been withdrawn. I would assure my hon. Friend that the sole purpose of the decision made was to reduce unnecessary travel, and not to increase transport revenue.
  Mr. Sorensen: Could not my hon. Friend after an experimental period find out whether travelling has been reduced and, if it has not, re-establish the cheap fares?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I am afraid that would create differences of fare between different routes, which would lead to great grievances and perhaps undesirable diversions of traffic. If after an experimental period my hon. Friend presents new evidence, I shall be glad to look at it.
  Mr. Sorensen: I cannot calculate how many passengers travel. Would my hon. Friend supply me with the evidence after two months?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: If my hon. Friend will put another Question in two months' time, I will give another answer.
  Mr. Thorne: Is my hon. Friend aware that the withdrawal of these cheap day fares costs at least 6s. a week to some workers?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: If my hon. Friend will give me facts which point to greater hardship, I will have them looked into, but I think on the whole it will be found that this is a necessary measure which does not cause undue hardship.

  CANAL TRANSPORT
  Sir Patrick Hannonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is satisfied that full advantage is being taken of the facilities offered by the canal system in the Birmingham and Black Country area for the improvement of coal distribution; whether the canal-loading wharves in the Cannock Chase area are utilised to full capacity; and whether he has in process a practical scheme for the full employment of canal-transport facilities in the Midlands?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: In co-operation with the Ministry of Fuel and Power, my Ministry have made every effort to increase the use of the canals for the transport of coal, both in the Birmingham area and elsewhere. The principal difficulty in employing the full capacity of the canal system has been the shortage of labour for the canal wharves and for the crews of the canal craft. Women are being trained to man the craft, and several crews are already at work.
  Sir P. Hannon: Is my hon. Friend giving serious attention to the facilities that canals afford in the Midlands for the distribution not only of coal but for goods generally? Do the Government still regard the canals as of no particular consequence in transport?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: No, Sir; we attach great importance to the use of canals to their maximum capacity. I have for the last few months given close personal attention to the problem and I hope to secure good results.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Are not the canals the property of the railway

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  companies in many cases, have they not been closed down, and ought not all of them to be opened?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Less than one-third of the capital invested in canals belongs to railway companies. Many of the railway canals are working. They are under Government control and we hope to make as good use of them as of the rest.

  PROPAGANDA VANS (PETROL)
  Sir Austin Hudsonasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that an allowance of five gallons of petrol per week has been granted to two loudspeaker vans used by the Communist Party of Great Britain on the ground that they will be used for the purpose of encouraging the increase of production and the recruitment of women; whether he will make inquiry as to whether the vans are not in fact being used for Communist Party propaganda; and whether he will take steps to discourage the use of petrol for furthering the political interests of any party?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's Question is in the affirmative. I promised last week to make inquiries into the purposes for which these vans are in fact being used. These inquiries are proceeding.
  Sir A. Hudson: Is the Minister aware that one day a short time ago one of the speakers on one of these vans alluded to the Lord President of the Council as "the butcher of Bengal"; is that increasing production and the recruitment of women?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: My hon. Friend made statements here this week and last week as to the use to which these vans have been put. I have as yet received no confirmed evidence which supports his statements, either from him or from anybody else.
  Sir A. Hudson: I will send all the evidence I have to my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Maxton: Does the Minister think that it would be wrong to refer to the right hon. Gentleman as "the butcher of Bengal"?

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION

    "British Ally"
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Information whether he will place in the Library the English version of such parts of the weekly newspaper "Britansky Soyuznik" as are originally written in English?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): Yes, Sir. I am sending to the Library the English originals of articles which have appeared in the four issues of "Britansky Soyusnik" so far received.
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the Minister, while doing that, be good enough to place in the Library the trashy doggerel which his assistant has written about the "Daily Worker"?

    Leaflet, "The Spiritual Issues of the War"
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Information how many copies are distributed weekly of the periodical "The Spiritual Issues of the War"; how many of these are distributed at home and how many overseas; whether he is aware that the issue dated 1st October devoted one of its four pages to a report of the Arch bishops' Albert Hall meeting, which had already been fully reported throughout the free world by press and radio; and whether he will take steps to improve the selection and presentation of the items in this periodical?
    Mr. Bracken: This leaflet consists of four small pages; 6,410 copies are distributed weekly in the British Isles and 4,630 are sent overseas. It is, I am told, a small but acceptable index of the activities of the Protestant Churches. Perhaps the best way of dealing with my hon. Friend's suggestions as to how it can be improved is to repeat Dr. Johnson's saying:
    "That what is obvious is not always known and what is known is not always present."
    Mr. Driberg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of those who receive this periodical regard it as so unreadable and undynamic as to be an almost complete waste of paper?
    Mr. Bracken: They can always return it to the many other persons who desire to read it.
    Major Petherick: If it is a Government publication, is there any reason why it should be used to propagate the views of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
    Mr. Bracken: Any paper that attempts to be an index of current religious speeches or sermons must of necessity include speeches made by the Archbishops of Canterbury and York.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: What had the speech of the Archbishop of Canterbury to do with spiritual issues?

    Postal Censorship
    Sir L. Lyleasked the Minister of Information the exact use to which the censorship of letters in this country is put; whether he can give an assurance that it was only instituted for the purpose of preventing espionage and the diffusion of information helpful to the enemy; and to what extent it is now used to detach from their context passages suggesting non-conformation with certain home orders so that on them prosecutions can be based?
    Mr. Bracken: As regards internal mails, censorship is imposed for reasons of operational security only and censors are not authorised to disclose information to other Government Departments except in the case of breaches of operational security. As regards external mails; censors are authorised to disclose the contents of correspondence to other Government Departments in the case of certain clearly defined categories of information necessary for the performance by the Department concerned of its part in the war effort. Censorship officers are not authorised to disclose information in regard to breaches of peacetime law or legislation.
    Sir L. Lyle: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of my constituents, a woman of unimpeachable character, had a letter opened, that there was nothing in it with regard to the defence of the realm, but that she had offered in the kindness of her heart three coupons to a sick friend, and that the Ministry of Food to their shame prosecuted her? Is that the intention of the censorship and does it not savour of persecution?
    Mr. Bracken: If people break the law, that cannot be described as a form of persecution. This censorship business is a most awkward and difficult one. There
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    is no political interference of any kind with the censors and I give my hon. Friend the assurance that the greatest possible care is taken in the exercise of the powers conferred upon censors.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Are the employees of the censorship forbidden to pass on any information they acquire unless for security reasons, and can my right hon. Friend extend that assurance to correspondence with other parts of the Empire?
    Mr. Bracken: I would certainly say so; everyone employed by the censorship is a servant of the State and must exercise the greatest possible prudence in the performance of his duty.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is any discrimination made against letters, the envelopes of which are marked by the name of a local Labour party?
    Mr. Bracken: Certainly not.

  ARMED FORCES

    Air-letter Service
    Mr. Astorasked the Postmaster-General whether he will consider instituting an air-mail letter-card service from the United Kingdom to the Middle East, similar 1:0 the service in operation from the Middle East to the United Kingdom?
    The Postmaster-General(Mr.W.S.Morrison): Lack of air capacity has hitherto precluded the introduction of a light weight air letter to the Middle East. The Government has, however, now decided to increase the fixed quota available weekly for the air borne conveyance to the Middle East of troop mail and this will permit of the replacement of the air postcard by an air letter of standard weight and design. The price, including postage, of this air letter, which will be on issue at all Post Offices, will be 6d. The new service will be introduced as soon as the Christmas mail for the Middle East and beyond has been cleared. The airgraphs which will continue to receive first priority for all-air conveyance over other air mail correspondence, will remain the cheapest and normally the, most expeditious means of communicating with the Forces.
    Mr. Astor: May I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer and ask him

    1207
    whether he is aware how very welcome this concession will be to the troops in the Middle East, especially to other ranks?

    Postal Orders for Overseas (Validity Period)
    Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that postal orders sent to serving men overseas have sometimes arrived after the six months period of validity; and whether he will extend the period of validity of such orders to 12 months?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: Arrangements have been in operation for some time whereby the period of validity of postal orders sent to members of His Majesty's Forces serving overseas has been extended to nine months. So far as I am aware, this extension has fully met requirements, but, if the hon. Member will furnish me with details of any case he has in mind where difficulty has been experienced, I shall be happy to look into the matter.

  RAILINGS REMOVAL
  Mr. Tinkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Planning how many machines are in use to remove the broken ends of iron railings that have been left embedded in masonry; where they have been used; and whether effective or not?
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Planning (Mr. Hicks): Two hundred and fifty stump extracting machines have been delivered to the Regional Offices of my Department for use by the men engaged on the recovery of railings. They have been used throughout the country but the experience so far gained is not conclusive. Satisfactory results have, however, been obtained where the curbs or copings are of granite or other hard stone.
  Mr. Tinker: If I give my hon. Friend information where these machines have been tried and have failed, will he take further steps to remove these broken ends, as they are a danger to the inhabitants?
  Mr. Hicks: I tried to indicate that they are not always successful, especially where stone has been exposed for some time and has deteriorated, in which case
  1208
  the machine tears it away and damages it. With regard to the other point I will look into it.
  Sir William Davisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Planning, whether he can now state the result of the re-examination by the Special Headquarters Appeal Panel of their recommendation to the Minister that the railings in Campden Hill Square, which were scheduled for removal by the Kensington Borough Council, should be retained; and what person or body originally lodged an appeal for the retention of these railings after they had been scheduled for removal by the Kensington Borough Council?
  Mr. Hicks: I am not yet in a position to report the result of the deliberations of the Headquarters Appeal Panel, but I hope to be able to do so next week. No appeal was made in respect of the railings in Campden Hill Square nor was it necessary as the Panel quite properly on its own initiative recommended the retention of these railings as well as other examples of notable ironwork.
  Sir W. Davison: Is it not very unusual for an appeal tribunal to appeal to themselves against the decision of the local authority, and is it not especially undesirable when I understand a member of that tribunal is himself a resident in the square in question? Is the Minister also aware that in the case of Kensington Square, which is a square of incomparably greater historic interest than Campden Hill Square, the retention of the railings was refused, and that they have been pulled down?
  Mr. Hicks: The answer is that in the first instance they have not appealed against themselves yet. I am asking them to review their previous recommendation in view of the urgent need for metal. Secondly, the member of the tribunal who resides in the square was not on the panel at the time the decision was arrived at. Thirdly, the panel has the right to recommend to the Minister the retention of railings of historic value or artistic merit.
  Sir W. Davison: Has the Minister seen those railings? They are of very poor character, nothing like the wrought iron railings in Kensington Square which have not been preserved, and is it not very undesirable that the appeal tribunal should

  1209
  appeal to themselves and refuse all information to the local authority as to the reason for their action in spite of repeated requests from the Royal Borough Council?

  BELISHA BEACONS
  Mr. Douglasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Planning, whether, in view of the need for metal and the development of other satisfactory devices for indicating pedestrian crossings, he will arrange that beacon posts can be surrendered for scrap metal?
  Mr. Hicks: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) on 3rd February last, and of which I am sending him a copy. The position has not changed since that date.

  WAR DAMAGE (ADVICE)
  Mr. Liddallasked the Prime Minister whether, in the case of war damage occurring in any area, he will give instructions that the appropriate Government Department or Departments shall immediately send a representative or representatives, with full power to act, to advise property owners, tradesmen and all concerned as to the best method of dealing with the many problems that thereby arise?
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I am not sure what has prompted my hon. Friend's Question. So far as air raids are concerned, since the early days of raiding arrangements have been in force and have been continuously developed by which Regional Commissioners and Departmental Representatives give immediate help to local authorities in the restoration of the life of the community after air raids and particular attention has been directed to the need for ensuring that prompt help is given to the special problems of property owners and traders. The general co-ordination of these activities is a responsibility of Regional Commissioners. The lessons to be learnt from previous raids and failures in arrangements where such have occurred have been closely studied and remedies applied. Every effort is made to improve the efficiency of the arrangements in the light of experience and intelligent anticipation.

  HOME GUARD (RETIRED PERSONNEL, DECORATION)
  Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that officers and other ranks of the Home Guard who have worked so well since the inception of the Local Defence Volunteers to promote efficiency and comradeship have, in recent months, by reason of the age limit, had to retire; and will he consider recommending the establishment and award now of a ribbon and later a medal for some of these officers and other ranks locally recommended and selected?
  The Deputy Prime Minister: The question of the award of a medal or medal ribbon for service in the Home Guard is part of the general problem relating to the award of medals for service in this war, and any recommendations regarding such awards would clearly be premature at the present time.
  Rear-Admiral Beamish: Will the right hon. Gentleman remind the Prime Minister that even the spirit of eternal youth cannot overcome the march of time or the span of life, and that some such award as this would really gratify the old and bold who have worked so well?

  PRODUCTION

    Substitute Product
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Production whether he has considered a letter from the firm of Messrs. F. McNeil and Company in connection with the substitute product for which the Cork Insulation Company, a subsidiary of the Vestey monopoly, has been given permission to build a factory; if he is aware that this firm claims that the established manufacturers can, and would, produce all the substitute material necessary to meet the Government's requirements; and what answer has he made to this firm?
    The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): This Company has been informed that the Cork Insulation and Asbestos Company were allowed to acquire building material to adapt a plant to produce this substitute product at a time when there was a large prospective deficit in supplies of material of this kind. The new undertaking, which used comparatively little material and labour for construction, is now in operation. As I think

    1211
    the hon. Member knows, I recently explained the position fully to a deputation of members representing Durham constituencies.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that this huge monopoly, Vestey's, is getting power to make a substitute so that it can control it and keep its production sufficiently down after the wax in order to protect its own big interests in the original; and is it not a scandal that the Government should have given, this licence when there was no need for giving it to Vestey?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I cannot answer hypothetical questions of that nature.
    Mr. Neil Maclean: Is the Minister of Production satisfied that there are not already in this country a sufficient number of firms to do all the insulating work that is necessary?
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise this matter again and within the next 80 days.

    Production Behind Schedule
    Mr. Hammersleyasked the Minister of Production what supervising authority does he exercise in respect of any armament or munitions production which to his knowledge is seriously behind schedule?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The problem is jointly reviewed by the Supply Minister concerned and myself to decide what remedy should be applied. I would also refer the hon. Member to the statement made by the Prime Minister on 12th March in answer to the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) and also to the statement which I made on 22nd April about the functions of the Industrial Division of my Department and the Industrial Panel.
    Mr. Hammersley: Does that answer mean that when my right hon. Friend finds that production is behind schedule and he investigates cases, he is quite satisfied that everything has been done and is being done to put the matter right?
    Mr. Lyttelton: These are primarily matters for the Supply Minister concerned. Where there is a case of importance it is reviewed by him and me.
    Mr. Hopkinson: In the event of no improvement being made by the Supply Minister in question, what does the right hon. Gentleman do then?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Remedies must be suited to the problems.
    Mr. Hopkinson: What I asked was, what do you do?
    Mr. Shinwell: In a case where production is behind schedule and the Supply Minister has not taken effective steps to remedy the position, has my right hon. Friend an overriding authority which enables him to step in and give instructions?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Certainly. As I have explained before, I can do that, and if the Supply Minister concerned is dissatisfied with the decision, he can appeal to the War Cabinet.
    Mr. Hammersley: But does my right hon. Friend in fact do that?

    Programmes and Planning Division
    Mr. Hammersleyasked the Minister of Production the functions of the Programmes and Planning Division, apart from compiling satistical returns of Imperial, Dominion and American requirements?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The Programmes and Planning Division of my Ministry consists of certain members who sit with representatives of the Service and Supply Departments and together constitute the Joint War Production Planning Group. The main functions of this body were described to the House on 24th March and again on 14th July. Briefly, these are, first, to ensure that production is closely and continuously related to strategical requirements and secondly, to advise what proportion of the national resources and production is to be allocated to each service and to civilian requirements. The Division is in close touch with the planning section of the Combined Production and Resources Board and other similar bodies in Washington. There is a frequent interchange of personnel between the two bodies.
    Mr. Hammersley: Is there any practical relationship between planned production and the actual achievement?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Having regard to the nature of the functions detailed by the right hon. Gentleman, why is a professional economist put in charge, and why is so very little done except the compilation of statistics?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The Planning Section is not responsible for action in the field of production. There is no one with a larger experience of programme planning than the economist to whom my hon. Friend has referred.

    Machine Tools
    Mr. Hammersleyasked the Minister of Production whether he is aware that the setting up of a Production Control Division in his Ministry aimed at securing proper utilisation of capacity is quite ineffectual so long as the allocation and movement of machine tools remain in the hands of the Machine Tool Control; and what steps he is taking to rectify this matter?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I assume my hon. Friend is referring to the Regional Division of my Ministry. The Controller-General of Machine Tools is on my staff and works in close consultation with all the divisions of my Ministry in their spheres of planning and co-ordination. By these arrangements the Controller-General is able to carry out under my direction the allocation and movement of machine tools in such a way as to promote the proper use of capacity.
    Mr. Hammersley: Is my right hon. Friend quite satisfied that the working of this machine-tool control is not adversely affected by trade interests?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am so satisfied.
    Mr. Stokes: Does the Minister mean that the Machine-Tool Controller has now been removed from the Ministry of Supply to his Department?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The Controller-General of Machine Tools is an official in my Ministry.
    Mr. Stokes: And not in the Ministry of Supply?
    Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir.
    Sir P. Hannon: Is not the Controller-General of Machine Tool Supply one of the most competent officials?—[An HON. MEMBER: "The Minister said so."]

    Tanks
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Production whether he will make a statement on the tank production programme?
    Mr. Lyttelton: If the hon. Lady is referring to the numbers of tanks for which we have planned, she will understand that it would not be in the public interest to give information of this kind. I can, however, assure the hon. Lady that a joint programme has been worked out between this country and the United States, under which each country will concentrate upon the production of certain main types.
    Miss Ward: Is, it in the national interest that the Secretary of State for War should make an announcement? Was that announcement of policy made with the authorisation of the right hon. Gentleman? Why should the Secretary of State for War be allowed to make an announcement when my right hon. Friend is not?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I think that the Secretary of State for War was referring to the quality of a certain type of tank. The Question put to me was whether I would make a statement on the tank production programme.
    Mr. Stephen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that other statements have been made?
    Mr. Granville: Is it the responsibility of the right hon. Gentleman's Department to conduct an inquiry into the performance of the Churchill tank at Dieppe?
    Mr. Astor: Cannot something be done to establish a closer liaison between the troops using these tanks and persons designing them, in order that the lessons of experience may be translated more quickly into production?
    Mr. Lyttelton: If the hon. Member will put a Question on the Paper, I can give an account of these liaison arrangements.
    Mr. Shinwell: Why do we go on producing tanks when we know that they are quite unsatisfactory and have been proved to be defective in operation? Why do we go on doing so?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I do not admit the premises upon which the hon. Member bases his first question.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know, and had we not better face the facts, that many of the tanks which have been produced have proved to be defective in operation? Is not that fact well known?
    Miss Ward: Can I have an answer about the Secretary of State for War?

  POST-WAR PLANNING (OFFICIAL'S VISIT TO UNITED STATES)
  Mr. Craven-Ellisasked the Paymaster-General the purpose of sending a member of his reconstruction committee to the United States of America to inform officials there what is now being planned for Britain before his committee's proposals have been submitted to Parliament and approved?
  The Paymaster-General (Sir William Jowitt): My hon. Friend doubtless has in mind a statement which appeared recently in a Sunday newspaper. This was a misleading reference to a visit which a woman member of my staff will shortly be paying to the United States. I was asked by the Ministry of Information to allow her to go in order that she might accept an invitation to fulfil certain engagements. I consented as I thought it would be useful for her to take the opportunity of studying the work they are doing on Reconstruction problems.
  Mr. Craven-Ellis: In view of the importance of the work which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has in hand, will it be possible for an interim report to be made upon the investigations already taken, on post-war reconstruction?
  Sir W. Jowitt: That is a wholly different matter, and I think the hon. Gentleman had better put down a Question.
  Mr. Davidson: Is it understood that this member of the Department will make no statement in America at all with regard to future planning in this country?
  Sir W. Jowitt: No statement as to any definite plan, certainly.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Ex-Army Motor-cars (Sale)
    Major Lyonsasked the Minister of Supply whether he has considered an
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    advertisement, of which he has been informed, whereby guaranteed unregistered eight horse-power ex-War Department motor-cars are offered for unrestricted sale to the public; and why, when Government Departments are buying for State use large quantities of motorcars and these small motor-cars are urgently needed for economy, private sales have been permitted of these Government motor-cars so as to incur further cost to the public on their repurchase?
    The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): I find that the advertisement relates to vehicles purchased by unrestricted tender from the Ministry of Supply in November, 1941. Since February this year, all ex-Army motor-cars have been sold to their original manufacturers for resale to the public under controlled conditions.
    Major Lyons: Are not these small-powered motor-cars that were sold now wanted by the Ministry of War Transport for national purposes, and will they go back to the Government at a higher price than the Government sold them for to the ring?
    Sir A. Duncan: No, I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will find that these cars will not go back to the Government.

    Royal Ordnance Factories (Earnings Suspense Account)
    Mr. William Brownasked the Minister of Supply whether the arrangements in operation at a Royal Ordnance factory, of which he has been notified, whereby a proportion of the earnings of the operatives are held in suspense, and disbursement made from the suspense account to cover periods of absence by the operatives from work, is common to all Royal Ordnance factories; and whether he will issue instructions to end the practice in view, of the encouragement which it gives to absenteeism?
    Sir A. Duncan: I am investigating this matter, and will communicate with my hon. Friend when my inquiries have been completed.

    Iron Railings (Use)
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Supply how many tons of the iron railings collected by his Ministry have been

    1217
    used for making munitions; and how many tons still remain on the collection dumps?
    Sir A. Duncan: Over 250,000 tons of railings have been consigned to the works producing iron and steel, while about 73,000 tons remain on the reserve dumps. These are constantly being called upon. The entire output of iron and steel is used to meet essential war-time requirements.
    Mr. Bossom: Is there any special difficulty in using this railing iron?
    Sir A. Duncan: Yes, Sir, it is found that certain preparation has to be done upon it, and it is being done at the dumps.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Flank Bacon
    Mr. Summersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that, owing to the unwillingness of registered customers to accept bacon cut from flanks against their ration, this produce cannot be disposed of until certified as bad; and what steps he proposes to take to avoid this waste?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): No, Sir. My Department has received no information of the kind mentioned in the Question. If my hon. Friend will supply me with the particulars upon which his Question is based, I will look into them.

    Milk Distribution (Price Margins)
    Mr. Liddallasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the distributing margin between the price of milk paid to the producer and the price charged to the consumer is now divided into three parts, that is depôting allowance, wholesaler's allowance and retail distributor's allowance; that the definition of a wholesaler is one who sells over 750 gallons of milk per day retail although he may not actually sell one single gallon of milk per day by wholesale; and, as this gives an advantage to the bigger distributors over the smaller men, whether he will reconsider the scheme?
    Mr. Mabane: The reply to the first part of the Question is "Yes," Sir. As in many other branches of the food trades it
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    has for many years been a common practice for some of the larger retailers to perform the wholesale function in respect of their own retail trade. Where the volume of milk handled is sufficient to entitle the firm to be regarded as performing its own wholesale service, a margin is allowed for this service, but this margin is less than is allowed when the service is performed by a separate wholesaler. I cannot agree that the margins provided in the new price structure for milk give an advantage to the larger distributor, and my Noble Friend sees no reason for a reconsideration of this matter at present. The margins will, however, be reviewed in six months' time in the light of a further costings investigation.
    Mr. Liddall: Has there been joint general agreement for the scheme?
    Mr. Mabane: I think so.
    Mr. De la Bère: Why is there a persistent and adverse discrimination against the smaller man? Over and over again the smaller man goes to the wall, and it is not right.

    Bacon Factory, Stroud
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why the bacon factory, known as Smith, Rogers and Company, of Ebley, Stroud, Gloucestershire, has been closed down; and how many men have now been re leased for other work of national importance?
    Mr. Mabane: The factory was closed to release labour for other work of national importance, and I understand that seven men, all engaged in bacon curing, were rendered redundant to that side of the business. Four of these men have already left the firm.
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what arrangements have been made with regard to the disposal of offals in the area which has recently been served by Smith, Rogers and Company, bacon curers, of Ebley, Stroud, Gloucestershire?
    Mr. Mabane: If my hon. Friend is referring to the disposal of offals by nucleus factories, this has been left to private arrangements between those firms which continue in operation as curers and those firms where curing has ceased.
    Mr. Perkins: Can the Minister give the House an assurance that the firm that has been closed down will get its definite proportion?
    Mr. Mabane: I said in my original reply that that is left to private arrangement between the firms concerned.
    Mr. Perkins: Do I understand that the hon. Member is not responsible for those arrangements?
    Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir.

    Fish (Zonal Scheme)
    Mr. Loganasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that his proposals for the new fish zonal scheme, which becomes operative from Saturday, 17th instant, will result in Liverpool and some 18 counties getting an inferior type of fish; and whether he will take action before that date and make arrangements that Liverpool shall also get an equitable distribution of fish supplies landed at Scottish ports?
    Mr. Mabane: The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's Question is "No, Sir." As regards the second part, it is essential that the internal transport of fish should be reduced and it would not be consonant with the operation of the scheme shortly to be put into effect to supply from Scotland a zone which can be adequately supplied from its own ports.
    Mr. Logan: Is the Minister aware that fish coming from Scotland goes to the South of England? Is it not possible to understand that fish coming from Scotland would have to pass through Liverpool, and therefore, from the point of view of transport, would it not be better and more economical to land it at Liverpool instead of giving preferential treatment to the South of England?
    Mr. Mabane: It will not pass through Liverpool because the Scottish zone ends North of Liverpool.
    Mr. Logan: It is not possible to understand that if it goes by road transport it will have to pass through these centres in order to go to London, and would it not be better to distribute the fish in the North?
    Mr. Mabane: No, Sir, it will not go there. Scottish fish will be confined to the Scottish and Hull zones, with the sole
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    exception of London, because London has been made a zone to which surpluses from other zones may be sent.
    Mr. Logan: I understand that Scottish fish is to go to London from Scotland. Is it not better that you should give the North a choice of fish instead of the stuff that we are about to receive?

  BUILDING CONSTRUCTION AND PLANNING
  Mr. Bossomasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Planning what steps his Ministry is taking to overcome the dual control now connected with all new buildings, that of planning and location, under his Ministry, while the actual construction, materials and processes are under the control of either local statutes or the Ministry of Health?
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Planning (Mr. Henry Strauss): The existing division of authority which depends on statutory enactments cannot be altered without legislation. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave him on 30th September, 1942.
  Mr. Bossom: Is my hon. Friend aware that there are sometimes as many as half-a-dozen different authorities which control the construction of building? Cannot he adopt the process of simplification adopted in the United States in this matter?
  Mr. Strauss: I will certainly look into whatever my hon. Friend brings to my attention in that matter. He will appreciate that my Noble Friend has no power to repeal Statutes and to take over the powers possessed by other Ministers.
  Mr. Bossom: Will the Minister, endeavour to get such powers so that they can be removed?
  Mr. Strauss: That is another question.
  Mr. Bossomasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Planning what steps his Ministry is taking, when formulating legislation in connection with construction and planning, to permit the introduction and use of new materials and more modern methods of construction?
  Mr. Strauss: As my hon. Friend is aware, technical studies in relation to the use of new materials and methods of construction are in progress in my Noble Friend's Department in consultation with the Ministry of Health and the Scottish Office. Pending the completion of these studies I cannot say to what extent changes in present methods of control of building may be necessary.
  Mr. Bossom: Will my hon. Friend endeavour to see whether pre-fabricated methods such as enable ships in America to be built so quickly can be applied in such a way that beauty can be retained when doing so?

  ROYAL NAVY

    Fleet Reservists (Medal)
    Mr. Walter Edwardsasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in appreciation of the splendid service rendered to the nation by Royal Fleet reservists in the early stages of hostilities, he will consider the amendment of the King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions to enable Royal Fleet Reservists who have completed 15 years' active service, with the necessary good conduct, to be awarded the Royal Navy Long Service and Good Conduct Medal with gratuity, without regard to the condition of continuous service?
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): While I gladly take this opportunity of acknowledging the splendid war service rendered by Royal Fleet Reservists, and indeed by all classes of Naval Reservists, I do not feel able to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion. The Royal Naval Long Service and Good Conduct Medal and the associated gratuity are awarded to men who serve on for pension, and one of its purposes is thus to offer an inducement to men to sign on for continuous service in the Royal Navy after the expiration of their original engagement. The Royal Fleet Reservists can qualify for the Royal Fleet Reserve Long Service and Good Conduct Medal after 15 years combined Naval and Reserve service. They also have a special system of service gratuities.
    Mr. Edwards: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is no gratuity at all paid in respect of the Royal Fleet Reserve Long Service Medal? According to his
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    answer the impression is given that often in such case there is a gratuity payable.
    Mr. Alexander: I am aware that, as the hon. Member says, it is not specially attached to the medal. I simply said that there are special gratuities paid to Royal Fleet Reserve men.

    Swimming Instruction and Practice
    Mr. Molsonasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is the case that many men now serving at sea in the Royal Navy are unable to swim; whether men have been drowned when their ships have been sunk because they were unable to swim as far as the rescuing craft which were in the immediate vicinity; and whether he will take steps to require all officers and men serving at sea to learn to swim?
    Mr. Alexander: There are a number of men at sea in the Royal Navy who are unable to swim. As regards the second part of the Question all men are provided with a life saving belt but of course a good swimmer has a much better chance of saving his life than an indifferent one. As regards the third part of the Question, all possible steps are taken to teach new entries to swim and to improve the swimming of the beginner. All available swimming baths are used to capacity and in establishments which are not provided with swimming baths, new entries, and particularly non-swimmers, are exercised in a water tank with the use of the life-saving belt. Opportunities are given whenever possible in sea-going ships for practising swimming and for the instruction of backward swimmers.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every sailor in the German Navy can swim?

  MERCHANT NAVY (NAVAL DECORATIONS)
  Mr. Keelingasked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) the conditions upon which officers and men of the Merchant Navy are eligible for naval decorations;
  (2) why Captain Capon and other officers and men of a merchant ship which beat off a large number of aircraft that attacked her for four hours continuously, were recommended for the Civil Division of the Order of the British Empire instead of for Naval decorations?
  Mr. Alexander: As has recently been stated, the policy is that officers and men of the Merchant Navy should receive Naval decorations when engaged in operations which amount in effect to sea battles, as for instance special convoys to Malta and North Russia. In such cases Naval decorations are given according to the same standards as those applicable to Naval officers and ratings. The action fought by Captain Capon's ship, although demonstrating great gallantry and spirit, would not fall within this definition and was essentially defensive in character. The honours given were chiefly in recognition of the excellent service in saving the damaged vessel, services which if the vessel had been one of His Majesty's ships would appropriately have been rewarded by appointments in the Order of the British Empire.
  Mr. Keeling: Will my right hon. Friend state precisely whether it is a condition of the award of naval decorations to the Merchant Service that the ship was under naval orders at the time?
  Mr. Alexander: I do not want to lay down a hard and fast rule like that at all, and I do not think the House would wish me to do so. We want to be able to judge the merits of the case even when a ship is sailing individually, if it carries out operations of the kind I have described.
  Mr. Keeling: Do I understand that it is not a condition for the ship to be under naval orders?
  Mr. Alexander: No. I wish to deal with the cases on their merits.
  Captain Godfrey Nicholson: The right hon. Gentleman said that if it had been a naval ship the award would have been the Order of the British Empire. Does he mean the Civil Division or the Military Division?
  Mr. Alexander: The difference between the Civil and Military Divisions is entirely one of occupation. In the case of naval officers and men it would be a military award.

BILL PRESENTED

  WELSH COURTS BILL.
  "to repeal Section seventeen of the Statute 27 Hen. 8, c. 26, to remove doubt as to the right of Welsh-speaking persons
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  to testify in the Welsh language in courts of justice in Wales, and to enable rules to be made for the administration of oaths and affirmations in that language, and for the provision, employment, and payment, of interpreters in such courts," presented by Mr. Herbert Morrison, supported by the Attorney-General and Mr. Peake; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed [Bill 44].

CONTRACTS (PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE REPORT)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. James Stuart.]
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I understand it is the wish of the House to utilise the Adjournment Motion to-day for a discussion on the Report of the Public Accounts Committee which has been in the hands of Members for some time. I expect that most hon. Members present have read that Report, though I wonder whether all of them have tried, as I have thought it my duty to do, as a former Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, to read through the rather voluminous body of evidence that was taken in a number of days' hearings by the Public Accounts Committee earlier in the present year. Those who have done so will, I am quite sure, agree with me in thanking the Committee for their arduous and patient labours in an endeavour to find out the truth on these matters of great public importance. I think further that there will be very few who will not come to the opinion that I have come to, that though there may be slight differences of emphasis, in the main the Committee could have come to no other finding than that to which they have, in fact, come.
I think there is a good deal of misunderstanding as to the precise functions of the Public Accounts Committee. Perhaps I may be permitted to make a very few remarks on that in opening what I have to say. The Public Accounts Committee is not concerned to pass a verdict of approval or disapproval on contracting firms. Its purpose is to see that the Government and their servants, the permanent staff of the Departments, carry out the will of the House of Commons, first, that they spend the money on the objects for which the House of Commons voted it; and, secondly, that they spend it with reasonable economy and with the care which business people, properly advised, would exercise. For that purpose, generally, it suffices that they should call as witnesses the accounting officers of the various Departments. In most years that is what they do, and the Report which they issue at the end of the year is based on that evidence. They have, of course, the assistance throughout of the Comp-
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troller and Auditor-General, who is the servant of the House and not the servant of the Government, and whose salary is on the Consolidated Fund in order to mark that important difference. They do not as a rule endeavour to elicit evidence from outsiders, and only in very exceptional cases have they taken this course.
On the present occasion it was thought desirable to go beyond the usual practice, and, in view of the great importance of the matter of inquiry, and also as a matter of fairness to the firms whose attitude was under discussion, representatives of those firms gave evidence on the subject which had been animadverted on by the Comptroller and Auditor-General in his Report. I propose to deal briefly with the immediate individual facts referred to in the Public Accounts Committee's Report, and then to make a few observations on the larger issues behind these investigations. Several cases came under the purview of the Public Accounts Committee, but I do not think anyone will deny that one case bulked much larger than the others. That was the case of the British M.A.R.C., with which the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) is personally associated. The pith of the findings of the Public Accounts Committee with regard to that are contained in paragraphs 28 to 30 of their Report. I think it desirable that so far as paragraph 28 is concerned I should read the salient sentences:
"In their opinion, in view of the circumstances prevailing in the spring of 1939, the Air Ministry had justification for agreeing to the fixed price claimed by the Company for the comparatively small number of guns under the first contract, particularly as the Ministry had reason to hope that for the second and much larger order the target cost system would be adopted and that the price would thereby be settled in relation to ascertained costs. Your Committee feel that the rejection of this arrangement by the Company has led to many of the subsequent difficulties.
"Asa result, the Ministry, in their anxiety to reach agreement, felt obliged to offer for this (the second) contract a fixed price which was high, but they believed they had secured a safeguard in an understanding with the Company's representatives that, in the event of the output of 1940 being larger than expected, the Ministry would be entitled to an adjustment. The error in failing to incorporate this understanding in formal contract terms is admitted. Your Committee regard the refusal of the Company to admit such an adjustment, except as part of a general settlement, as most regrettable."
I understand that the Committee took evidence showing that the failure to incorporate this understanding was due to

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the evacuation of the Department, which led to the oversight, and which, although it did not altogether excuse it, explains how the mistake was committed. Paragraph 29 deals with the question of full access to books. There was some dispute in the evidence about that, and I do not think it necessary for me to read the whole of the paragraph. I will paraphrase it by saying that the Committee found that there was some stickiness as to the production of all the books and were of opinion that the Ministry of Aircraft Production should have used its compulsory powers earlier in order to compel production of all necessary information. With regard to paragraph 30, I will read just the opening sentences:
"The investigation recently made for the first time into actual costs discloses that the prices hitherto demanded by and paid to the Company, both fixed and provisional, have been altogether excessive. As a result large sums which greatly exceed any reasonable remuneration are in the hands of the Company."
I would remind hon. Members that since the publication of this report we have had a White Paper, which was issued only last Saturday. In this White Paper the action taken on the strength of those words in the Report has been set out. Very large sums are being paid by this Company to the Exchequer, in accordance with the terms of this White Paper.
There was only one other matter of importance in the British M.A.R.C. question which was dealt with in the Report. There was alleged to be reluctance on behalf of the Company to deliver guns until their terms had been conceded. I think it would probably be the opinion of the Committee—I have not asked them, and I am judging only from reading the evidence—that although a great deal of time was devoted to that matter, it was not of the greatest importance. First, this question was largely in dispute in the evidence, and the whole matter arose prior to the outbreak of war, when firms were far more entitled to defend their own interests than they would be once the war had begun; and, secondly, I think that by the head men in the Ministry of Aircraft Production the threat to delay delivery, and, still more, to refuse delivery, was never taken very seriously. Therefore, I do not think the House will wish to take any great account of that matter, although it undoubtedly occupied a great deal of the attention of the Public Accounts Com-.
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mittee In view of that finding of the Public Accounts Committee, which I do not think the House is likely to wish to upset or to question in any way, and in view of the statements that are made in the White Paper of what has happened in consequence of the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, I, personally, do not think that we can go very much further into the matter, and for my part at any rate I propose to leave it there.
I pass to some of the wider issues on which this House and the public outside will particularly wish to be informed. My experience of the outside public in connection with these matters is that they start off with a predilection in favour of what they call competitive price. They say, "When we wanted to buy an article, before the war, at any rate, we had the choice of a large number of shops, and if we could not get the thing we liked in one shop, we went to another, and we generally found that the knowledge of that fact enabled us to get a competitive price and to buy the article in the best way." Of course, when business men were asking for articles which they required in the course of their businesses, on a small scale and in peace-time precisely the same thing appertained. There was a competitive price, and by putting a thing up to tender and as the result of a number of firms coming in to tender for the article, they were able to achieve the result which they desired. The ordinary member of the public wants to know why that system does not apply in the present circumstances.
I think the answer is not at all difficult to give. The reason is two-fold. In the first place, the quantity required is so large that only a few contractors can begin to tackle even a part of it. In the second place, it is so large that practically all the contractors who are capable of producing the article in question may be required by the Government to produce it, and there ceases to be any competition. There is another reason. There are cases in which the article required by the Government is one which has never been produced before, at any rate in the quantities for which the Government are asking, and in those cases it is exceedingly difficult, with the best will in the world, for either the Government or the contractors to know not only within narrow limits but even within wide limits what the

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cost per article will be when production reaches a considerable scale.
Then the ordinary public want to know why we cannot have a fixed price. The difficulty of the fixed price arises from much the same considerations as those to which I have already referred. Generally and in ordinary circumstances when a person is asking for an article which has been made many times before, it is easy to fix in advance a price which is fair and reasonable. But when the Government ask for an article which has never been produced before and which may, in certain circumstances, be subject to changes—necessarily, because of new inventions and discoveries made during the war, which must be incorporated in it—then, of course, the whole basis of a fixed price as commonly understood in ordinary business disappears. Therefore, the Government and the contractors both are confronted with a new, unusual and exceedingly difficult problem.
One of the attempts to deal with that problem is what is known as the target price. That means that after forming the best conclusions they can as to what the price should be, the Department and the contractors agree on a certain figure, as the price at which the contractor shall agree to deliver the article, but that figure is to be subject to certain provisos. If the contractor succeeds in producing the article at a much lower cost than was anticipated, he is to get some advantage but not the whole of the advantage arising from the difference. If, owing to circumstances over which the contractor has no control, the cost turns out to be more than was anticipated, I think I am right in saying that some allowance is made to the contractor. Of course, the target price and any other similar method involve costing. The costing system that is used is primarily a costing after the event, and into that costing comes the consideration of whether the methods actually employed were justified or whether there was unnecessary waste either unintentionally or in some cases by deliberate extravagance for purposes which were not necessary in the production of the article. Then there comes a further refinement in the matter by precosting, which is done by highly skilled technical accountants who advise and sometimes can correct the contractor as to the precise methods which he intends
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to employ, pointing out to him that if instead of doing what he proposes, he adopts other and better methods a considerable saving in cost might be effected.
I shall not go further into all these intricate matters. They are matters which came before me when I was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and as I think the public is largely ignorant concerning them, I thought it necessary to say a few words upon them. I would issue this word of caution to the House. All these contracts are on a scale which was almost undreamed of before the war. The country, as a whole, is working very much harder; this costing system is elaborate and difficult, and with the best will in the world it is not too easy to find suitable accountants to carry out this highly complicated, very extensive, and often controversial costing system. Therefore, the House cannot expect that in the future this accounting will be possible in every case or that it will always be exceedingly prompt and up-to-date in its results. The House of Commons will have to forgo either the promptitude or the completeness of investigations which may be required in the future.
Having attempted to answer some of the questions which the general public has been asking; I now direct myself to some of the questions which business managers are asking. One such question is, "Why is the matter of prices of very great importance, when Excess Profits Tax can be reckoned upon to take care of the profits?" I would answer that question very simply indeed by saying that sloppiness in accounting is the basis of indefinite waste. About 10 years ago I was in Russia, and I was most interested to find that they had there an elaborate system of accounting. Their different enterprises were carried on by what they called trusts, and though all those trusts were under State ownership, and State management and all their so-called profits belonged to the State, yet they had found it to be of the utmost importance to have an elaborate system of accounts and to have payment from one trust to another. The idea with which the Soviet system started, that as everything belonged to the State there was no need to have any accounts or any money transactions, had been almost entirely abolished. The most elaborate bookkeeping and accounting were taking place. I suggest that if we in

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this country, in view of the fact that there is an Excess Profits Tax, were to think that we could abandon careful scrutiny of the processes involved in contracts, we should be landing ourselves in interminable difficulties, and there would be waste on an extraordinary scale. Those who want a fuller answer than the one I have attempted to give, I recommend to go to the Appendix to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee with which we have been dealing, and there they will see some comments by the Treasury on this very issue.
The position, as I see it, at the present time with regard to these contracts is that we are trying to work what I cannot describe as other than a hybrid system. I understand the system of capitalism and that the prime motive of capitalist society is profit, and, to a certain extent, the pride that a man has in building up a large and a successful business. On the other hand, the prime motive of Socialism is first of all a patriotism in what may be—[Laughter]—I am arguing the motives which are expected to run efficiently under various systems, and I do not think that I am attempting in any way to misrepresent either the one side or the other. At least, that is not my intention.
Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Did the right hon. Gentleman—
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I do not think I need be interrupted.
Mr. Pickthorn: Why not?
Mr. Hopkinson: Did the right hon. Gentleman say that patriotism was the primary motive?
An Hon. Member: Yes.
Mr. Hopkinson: I thought he said patronage.
Mr. Pethick - Lawrence: That was rather unjustified, if I may say so, although I gave way, and I do not mind at all, I am trying to develop a serious argument of the motives which are supposed to operate, on the one hand, under a Capitalist system, and, on the other, on socialist services such as the Post Office and many others. The motives which are supposed to provide incentives in a Socialist system include the sense of serving one's fellows by good work and
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also power, privilege and preferment. I can see the motive-power either under Capitalism or under Socialism, but what we have at the present time is a hybrid system. We retain the form of Capitalism, and yet we take away from it most of the motive-power which, in ordinary circumstances, is expected to run it. The costing system to which I have been devoting some attention in the earlier part of my remarks is in fact designed to take away from the producer any large profits, and what is left to the firm is drained away by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Excess Profits Tax. The costings system is designed to reduce profits to a minimum; the Excess Profits Tax is designed to drain off everything beyond a pre-determined maximum. The ordinary manager of the firm is expected to try and serve two masters. We have very good authority for knowing that "no man can serve two masters," and if any national or person can do a thing which is supposed to be impossible, I think the British national is the most likely to succeed. I am bound to say that we have gone nearer to working this exceedingly impossible hybrid system in this country during the war than anyone outside would have ever believed possible.
It does put, undoubtedly—everyone must agree to this—the ordinary manager of business in a great quandary. He is the trustee of his shareholders. It is his business to look after their interests and do what he can for them, yet that very motive is directly opposed in many cases by his patriotism and his desire to make use of his business mainly and solely for the benefit of the country as a whole. It is a remarkable tribute to the ordinary man in this country that so little friction and trouble has arisen. I think that these cases which have been referred to here are exceptional and by no means typical of what has taken place as a whole. I must not by that be thought to mean that there have not been considerable profits made and sometimes a good deal higher profits than some of us would think right. Under the rather peculiar workings of the Excess Profits Tax, some of these profits will be retained by firms in some shape or form after the war. But as far as it is possible to work this peculiar and difficult hybrid system, it has been done in this country. We should note this point with a view to the post-war arrangements.

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If the British people have worked this intricate hybrid system, they are capable of making big changes in our whole arrangement of industry, and of the adaptation of the life and work of the people to the needs of the community after the war. What these changes should be are matters of acute controversy, and they are dormant to-day. They are likely to be active in the future, when the war is over. I am not going at length into what they will be, but I would commend this point to hon. Members, because it applies to this particular field of munitions. I suggest that a minimum advance in this particular field should be an extension of the Royal arsenals and dockyards in times of peace. They at any rate provide something in the nature of a competitive standard, and if at the outbreak of this war we had had a larger amount of production being done in these national organisations, we would have had a much more complete standard, which would have helped us to form the contracts in the earlier period of the war. Of course, my friends and I would go considerably further; we would have the production of all war material, in peace-time at any rate, under national management and ownership. I know that that is disputed by certain hon. Members, and I do not want to raise purely controversial matters here at the present time. Of course, that question is only part of the still larger question of the gradual extrusion of a profit-motive as the main driving force in production, but I should be taxing the patience of the House and perhaps overstraining your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, if I were to deal with that subject any further than I have done to-day.
Before I sit down I want to put certain points to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I understand that in addition to a Ministerial answer from the Ministry of Aircraft Production we are likely to have a reply on the wider issues by the Chancellor himself. I therefore propose to ask him to deal with certain questions. First, with regard to the precise matters which form the subject of the Public Accounts Committee's Report, I do not imagine he will want to say a great deal, but I would like to ask him this: Is it his opinion that these cases are typical of the attitude of British industry, or does he think, as I do, that they are exceptional and that in general there has been a praise-
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worthy effort to work a very complicated hybrid system? Secondly, turning from the particular to the more general, I would like to ask him to say whether it is now his view, as head of the Treasury, that there is a possibility of an increase in fixed-price contracts in view of the greater stabilisation to-day of methods of production, and whether, in his opinion, any additional safeguards are required. Thirdly, does he share what I understand to be the view of the Public Accounts Committee that Departments ought not to go beyond what they consider to be fair and reasonable prices because they fear the effects on production and that if necessary, where firms show reluctance to furnish sufficient information, the Departments should not hesitate to use their compulsory powers to elicit it with a view to reaching reasonable prices? Finally, I would welcome assurance from the Chancellor, which will have wider publicity than the Public Accounts Committee Report, that the powers given to him by the Finance Acts to claw back for the benefit of the Exchequer excess profits are not a substitute for careful price-fixing on an economical and reasonable basis.
Mr. Kendall: In rising to address the House on the subject of the criticisms in the Public Accounts Committee Report, I know that I shall be forgiven if I refer extensively to the notes of my statement in view of the difficulty in covering in a single speech a good deal of ground, much technical matter and all the major points contained in the Report. I propose, with the consent of the House, to show the order in which I desire to take these criticisms and then to destroy them one by one. I intend to show that in major respects the Report of the Committee is inaccurate and that where it is not inaccurate the facts are capable of a very different construction from that placed upon them by the Committee, as has in fact been shown by the various reports in many of the national newspapers. The force of this is indicated by the fact that almost every newspaper printing sensational headlines from the latest White Paper has conveyed to the whole country a completely misleading impression of the company's position. It is wrong, untrue and wicked to suggest that the company has or could have made profits of £1,700,000, when all prices, except for the first two contracts for a

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small number of guns, were all at provisional or temporary prices and therefore subject in any case to adjustment based on actual manufacturing costs. Why is it that we have not been able to have a balance-sheet since 1939, showing our profit and loss accounts? It is because we have been working on provisional prices and only provisional prices until a few days ago. Therefore, I state that this type of headline in the newspapers and this preposterously unnecessary and nebulous figure of assumption in the White Paper is both aggravating and provocative. It is abundantly clear from the evidence published in the Blue Book that a figure of profit of £1,700,000 is a fantastic absurdity and impossibility, having no relation to any evidence nor to any fixed prices and being, in fact, a fictional and ridiculous supposition, and, therefore, non-existent.
Before I deal with the actual criticisms, there are one or two preliminary observations which, in the interest of the House itself, no less than in my own, I wish to make My first observations relate to the circumstances in which this Report comes before the House. The Report was printed on 21st July, 1942. It was circulated to Members of the House two days later and from that date onwards it was the subject of widespread publicity and comment. As soon as I saw this Report I desired the earliest opportunity of answering in this House the criticism it contained. I was told—and the House was told—that discussion of this Report could not take place until the minutes of evidence on which it was based were available to the House, and the House was also told by its Leader that the evidence would not be available until the next Session. The consequence of this is that the charges contained in this Report have had several weeks' run in the House and the Press without my being able to justify my company or myself in this place. That, I submit, Mr. Speaker, is an utterly unfair position in which to place me or any other Member.
My second observation is this: If a member of the public or one of the newspapers publishes to the world that a particular factory engaged on war work is situated at a certain place, that is properly regarded as a serious offence. As the result of the publication of this Report, there has been blazoned to the four
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corners of the earth the exact location of a factory engaged in producing, in large quantities, a particular type of gun. I can assure the House that my workpeople and I are quite prepared to take our share of the risk of bombing, but both my workpeople and I take the strongest exception to what I consider the extreme thoughtlessness which resulted in the publication of the exact location of a particular factory engaged in the making of guns. After all, this factory has already been bombed a number of times, and in those bombings 18 men have been killed and 100 have been seriously injured. I ask, How comes it that a Sub-Committee of this House, or, as I am given to understand, a higher authority, can commit with impunity what if somebody else did it would be a punishable offence?
Before dealing in detail with the charges made by the Public Accounts Committee, I wish to make one further observation. From the evidence itself, it is clear that this Report, based upon the findings of the Auditor-General, is drawn up in a most unsatisfactory manner. Certain statements and facts are extracted by the Auditor-General from correspondence and minutes and embodied in a Report. No effort is made to relate the correspondence and minutes to their context. Nothing is done by him to examine the facts which led up to the correspondence and minutes nor to consider the results or effects which came afterwards from his Report. He did not inquire or probe, or ask for reasons and meanings. This is substantiated in Question 5325 of the Blue Book, where he gives most unsatisfactory answers on these points. Now I wish to examine the way in which the Ministry deals with the Report when it is submitted to them in draft form by the Auditor-General. The Report was with the Ministry for two or three weeks for comment. It is shown in Questions 5295, 5296 and 5537 of the Blue Book that the Ministry did not make any careful check on the draft Report. On the other hand, the Ministry themselves say in evidence (page 248, Question 5545), that had they known the immediate reactions this Report has produced, they would have asked the Auditor-General to alter the Report. There are the two sides saying in their own evidence that the Report, firstly, was not carefully checked back to its source for proper interpretations, and

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secondly, was not fully considered as to the effect of its presentation.
And now I turn to the charges made by the Public Accounts Committee. What are those charges? They are three. The first is that my Company declined to deliver to the Air Ministry a single one of urgently needed guns until the Air Ministry had agreed to the price demanded of them. The second charge is that over a protracted period of time my Company withheld from the Ministry of Aircraft Production access to books and documents which were vital to a fair assessment of the Company's overhead expenses, and therefore, vital to a fair assessment of prices for the Company's product. And the third charge is that, in fact, the prices obtained by the Company were excessive. The Committee's Report occupies some pages of closely printed matter, but all that they have to say in fact boils down to these three points. If I dispose of these three points, I dispose of the Report and of the criticisms directed against my Company.
I will now take these charges in their respective order. The first point I wish to make is on the charge that my Company declined to deliver guns until its terms had been met. That charge is utterly untrue. I ask the House to note the inconsistencies shown in this charge against my Company. First, the Auditor-General says the Company "apparently refused to deliver guns unless their terms were accepted. Secondly, the Report of the Public Accounts Committee refers to the "adamant determination" of the Company not to deliver guns until a price had been fixed. Thirdly, the recent White Paper now says that the Ministry got the "impression" only that the Company would not deliver until a price had been fixed.
I can assure the House that I, personally, have never threatened to withhold deliveries in the course of price negotiations; nor in my hearing, nor to my knowledge has any other official of the Company done so. And, further, this alleged threat would have been useless in any case because the guns were not urgently required. There was no aircraft for them, and as late as Midsummer, 1940, the Minister of Aircraft Production at that period said himself that these guns were unproved and of doubtful value, and in fact his own Production Department
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called me and said that the production of this gun might be discontinued altogether. But notwithstanding this adverse criticism and absolute lack of any kind of encouragement from the Ministry of Aircraft Production, we continued to produce with unabated enthusiasm and drive so that when the call came—as I well knew it would come—the guns were ready and were delivered. And I wish to state that until a very short time ago every gun and shell of our type used operationally was manufactured by my Company and never once has any aircraft been held up for this very necessary armament. This is a fact of which all of us, workers and management, who have contributed something towards that output are very proud.
Further and far more important, I would ask the House to note that quite apart from any alleged threat, there has never at any time in fact been any withholding of deliveries. I notified the Ministry by letter on 17th April, 1939—that is to say, seven days before the meeting at the Air Ministry of which the Committee takes particular note—that the Company was ready to deliver guns in small batches. In actual fact, deliveries were commenced in the middle of the next month. The delay was due not to any price factors but to a query on the quality of our first gun. This gun did not meet with the approval of the Air Ministry inspection authorities, because we were experiencing unforeseen difficulties in the rifling of the barrels of the guns. This statement of mine is fully substantiated by the records of the Air Ministry Inspection Department. From that date onwards our deliveries have been progressively and substantially increased month by month. In the latter months of 1940 we were actually manufacturing and delivering guns without a price of any kind, either fixed or provisional. I offer this as further evidence of the utmost will and desire to deliver.
In further evidence, I would ask the House to note the remarks of the Permanent Secretary in Question 2557, page 22 of the Blue Book. After saying that the alleged threat not to deliver was not taken very seriously by the Ministry, he goes on—
"… in any case the firm made it clear that they would go on with production and a firm is not going to produce guns if they cannot sell them."

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In further confirmation, I refer again to the Permanent Secretary where he says, in Question 2560:
"I do not think there is any doubt about it that in the production field this company has an outstanding record."
We did get on with production. We did work 24 hours a day seven days a week way back from February, 1939. I will now take the supposition that this charge is true. I wish to remind the House that as the Report itself makes plain, the occasion of the alleged refusal to deliver guns was in April, 1939. Now in April, 1939, this country was at peace. And moreover, we had the assurance of the then Prime Minister that he had secured by his visit to Hitler at Munich the certainty of peace in our time. Where then was the rush? How ineffective a threat of non-delivery would be at this time of peace!
It is the habit of this country—so far as it goes—to organise for war in advance on the basis of the widest possible use of private enterprise. I do not agree with this policy. I think that the manufacture of armaments is so vital a thing to the country's life that it should not be left in private hands at all. And it will be remembered that in the very first speech which I had the honour of addressing to this House, I myself proposed that all establishments engaged in the manufacture of indispensable war products should at any rate for the period of the war be nationalised. Not only, therefore, am I not responsible for this way of organising for war, but I dissent from it. If the Government, instead of having their own munition factories ask private firms to produce the war commodities that they require, they cannot reasonably object that any company, including mine, should ask that some sort of price be fixed before it incurs heavy expenditure. So my answer to the first charge is: (1) that it is not true; (2) that, even if it were, there is nothing discreditable in a firm asking for a price of some kind to be fixed for the commodity which the Government is asking of it; and (3) there has not in face been any withholding of deliveries.
The second charge is that over a period of time my Company placed obstacles in the way of the Ministry's accountants and, in particular, that it withheld access to documents and books indispensable to a fair assessment of the Company's
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operating costs. There are two answers to this charge. The first is that the charge is not true and the second is that the Ministry at every stage had two complete remedies which it had the power to use. I repeat that the first answer to the charge is that it is not true. Nowhere in evidence is it stated that the Company refused the Ministry sufficient records to enable them to arrive at our operating costs. This is because such information was in fact always made available to them. The material and labour costs were always speedily and amicably agreed with the technical cost officials of the Ministry. Next there is a point which I want the House to bear well in mind throughout this statement of mine. The nominal ledger containing all overheads was always accessible to the visiting accountants of the Ministry and, when I say all overheads, I mean that nothing was omitted.
What is it, then, the Company is alleged to have withheld? It is, according to the evidence, full and complete information as requested by the Ministry. In detail it means that the Company did not produce the monthly salaries book and its trading accounts and balance sheets. As regards the monthly salaries book, I can assure the House that in total all the information audited and signed contained in the salaries book was posted to the nominal ledger to which I have just referred, and was therefore available to the Ministry. The individual figures of salaries were not, as a matter of principle, given to the visiting accountants, many of whom were junior members of the Ministry's staff and frequently changed. But these individual figures were given to the appropriate Department of the Ministry by my Chairman, and our auditors also gave to the independent accountants working for the Ministry these same figures. Therefore from two sources the Ministry had complete records of the details which both the Auditor-General and the Public Accounts Committee have made so much fuss about, and which, in any case, have not increased or decreased our profit by one penny. As regards the production of profit and loss accounts I ask the House to note that the last completed accounts of the Company are for 1939, and that these accounts were not signed until January, 1941. Thus, there did not exist any profit and loss accounts which I could have produced to the Minis-

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try officials during the negotiations to which the Committee refers. But at all times, the Ministry had available to them just exactly the same records of cost as the Company had. No different. And the Ministry could have produced therefrom, for itself, any financial statements thought necessary and similar to those produced by the Company.
My second answer to this charge is that at each stage the Government had two remedies available to their hands. The first was the power which the Government possess under the Defence Regulations to issue an Order demanding the production of any records which they regard as essential. If it were the case that we were withholding any records, they could have compelled us to produce them at any stage by the issue of an Order under these Regulations. The second remedy which the Ministry possessed lies in the character and the composition of the board of directors of my Company. In July, 1940, four of the original seven directors of my Company were of foreign nationality. In the same month these foreign directors were replaced, at the instance of the Minister of Aircraft Production, by British subjects chosen by him. From this point in time onwards, therefore, a majority of the directors of my Company consisted of the nominees of the Minister of Aircraft Production himself. The Ministry was, therefore, in effective control of my Company from this point onwards and through its nominated directors could have given whatever instructions it pleased. It is strange, to say the least, that these same Government directors had been with the Company for over two years, and yet the Auditor-General's Report, based on unconfirmed Ministry minutes, was published without any of the same Government-nominated directors having any knowledge that such a Report was likely to be issued. I trust that the House will agree with me that I have now completely disposed of charge number two.
I turn now to the third charge—the charge that my Company has extorted unreasonably high prices for its products. Under our contracts with the Government my firm has operated 19 contracts—seven for guns and 12 for shells. Of these contracts only two were operated on a fixed-price basis. In all the others there was a clause, which has been duly operating,
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providing for provisional prices and for a subsequent adjustment of those provisional prices in accordance with actual experience of the operating costs of the Company. Let me put this in another way. My Company has produced for the Government some tens of thousands of guns and many, many millions of shells. Of this enormous quantity, less than 6 per cent. of the guns were subject to fixed prices. That is, the number of guns covered by the first two contracts. And all the fuss and bother, all the innuendo and insinuation, all the censure which this Committee of ours imparts into its comments on my firm, centres on the price paid for less than 6 per cent. of the total guns produced. Had the Company gone slowly and been inefficient, then the small fixed-price contract would have been spread over a much longer period of time. Obviously the cost per gun to the Company would have been greater, and had this been the case, the Company would have received no criticism.
I believe the House will be with me in failing to comprehend minds which criticise a company giving speedier production and tremendous reductions in costs, even though it makes a profit on paper through increased efficiency, and which are returned in any case to the Government in Excess Profits Tax. And let me stress the fact that the manufacturing costs of my company were and are lower by far than those of any other manufacturing units manufacturing the same type of products either at home or abroad. How a company doing all these things and being left without any profit can be criticised is just unintelligible.
I propose to give the House a few figures showing the effects of Excess Profits Tax on my company. A few days ago the Ministry agreed with us fixed prices on contracts for guns and shells for 1940 and 1941. These prices show a profit of £90,000 for the two years, based on the very reasonable percentage of profit of 4½ per cent. for 1940 and 3½ per cent. for 1941. What happens to the two figures of £38,745 and £51,600 that go into making up this £90,000?
First, we shall be allowed 20 per cent. of these two figures at some date not in cash nor for distribution to the shareholders but for some purpose as yet unspecified. Second, from the £38,745 for

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1940, £30,745 is immediately returned to the Government in Excess Profits Tax, and of the £51,600 for 1941, £43,600 is returned immediately to the Government in Excess Profits Tax also, leaving us in both of these cases with our legislated standard of profit of £8,000 per annum. Thus, to summarise the situation briefly, on the total sales for the years 1940 and 1941 of £3,425,345, we have an agreed paper profit of £90,000, but after meeting our Excess Profits Tax liabilities we are still left with only the £8,000 standard of profit allowed us by legislation.
Now I would like to deal with this £8,000. First, £4,000—one-half—goes automatically in Income Tax, leaving £4,000. Of the £4,000 left, £3,200 goes in War Risks Insurance. My Company is left therefore with a balance of a few hundred pounds out of which all sorts of capital charges of one kind or another, and which are disallowable for taxation purposes, have to be met. But perhaps I can express this financial transaction a little better by adding one extra and very simple figure. The Minister of Aircraft Production will confirm what I now say when I state that over a period of three years and under contracts which in the aggregate have totalled many millions of pounds, the actual figure of net profit after taxation made by my Company is precisely £309. For three years very hard work—£103 profit per year. This is the measure of the storm which our Public Accounts Committee raise.
Captain Cunningham-Reid (St. Maryle-bone): No wonder he wants nationalisation.
Mr. Kendall: All this expense, time wasted, and worry to people engaged on war production, have come upon a Company which it is stated in evidence did a magnificent job in starting up with a new weapon urgently needed, has a production record which is unrivalled and makes a profit of £309 in three years with costs which cannot be beaten for the same type of weapon. What an extraordinary position when one looks at the trading results of other armament firms in the last three years of war. One company has a net profit after taxation of £633,175, another £583,237, another £3,254,896, another £545,534, and another £1,984,561, a total of £7,001,403 net profit after taxation for five companies in three
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years. These same five companies earned for distribution in three years ended 1935 before re-armament a total of £4,472,017. During the war, notwithstanding heavily increased taxation, they have increased their profits by £2,531,986. My Company has earned after three years of hard work and after taxation a total of £309.
In placing before the House all these facts and figures, I submit that I have answered categorically every charge which this Report brings. I have stuck closely to facts and figures this day, but the House may be sure that I feel no small measure of bitterness and injustice over a Report which I submit I have shown to have no sense, right or reason. I have already mentioned that in the way of contracts my Company has already produced very large quantities of guns and shells. I wish the House to realise what those figures mean in terms of progressive and sustained increases in output. Perhaps I can best express it by saying that in the last three years the output of my Company has increased over its planned production by no less than 5,000 per cent., that is to say 50 times. This surely, is a grand record and a mighty effort at a time when what this country needs for its salvation is neither committees nor reports, but guns and more guns. This figure which I have just given is one of which my Company is proud and for which this House, I am sure, is grateful.
Long before this Committee assembled price adjustments were going on between my Company and the Ministry of Aircraft Production. They would have continued to go with or without the Committee's Report, as the Minister of Aircraft Production will be bound to tell you when he comes to speak in this Debate. Here I wish to put on record my appreciation of the sympathetic consideration and understanding which the present Minister of Aircraft Production and his principal officers are giving us with regard to our many problems.
I wish to make one final observation. When I first read this Report, with its mass of innuendo and insinuation, I expected when I came to the end to find that the Public Accounts Committee recommended at the very least a severe censure upon the, hon. Member for Grantham. That would have been a proper culmination if the charges set forth in this document had been justified.

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What, in fact, does the Committee say? It says, in rising to a superb and unprecedented anti-climax:
''In the opinion of this Committee the matter calls for an early adjustment between the Company and the Department."
I did not of my own desire come to Britain to make guns for His Majesty's Government. Before the war my home was in the United States, but I was posted to Paris to control a much bigger concern than British M.A.R.C. I refer to the firm of Citroen where I was in charge of 35,000 men and women. I came here not at my own request but at the request of the British Government, and I regard it as positively insulting that having put the manufacture of our type of gun on a sound and progressive basis over a period of three years, I should be the subject of such criticism as this Report has caused. Moreover, if I were so terribly misguided, so much an obstructionist, as apparently some people would wish to infer, would I have been chosen as a member of the War Cabinet's Automatic Gun Board? Immediately upon my election to that Board would I have been asked to serve as group leader of the manufacturers of this type of gun in this country and in fact to be responsible to the Gun Board for the production of these guns in England to-day? Would I have been chosen except on ability, since I have no friends in high places and no tremendous social background to call upon? I would like the House to examine why I was chosen. The answer is that I was selected surely not because I was running my Company badly or hindering my country's war effort. I presume I was chosen on merit and high productive ability, which is a record I have had, and which I still have to-day, not only in England, but also in the United States and, for what it is still worth, in France.
I have told the House the truth without fear or favour, without prejudice and without exaggeration, and I submit that I have shown that (1) the guns were delivered without threats as to price, (2) that all documents necessary to costings were shown and made available to the respective Departments concerned, and (3) that except for £103 per year over the last three years we are a non-profit-making Company. I apologise for having taken up so much of the time of the House, but Members in all parts of the
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House will appreciate that no man can leave such charges as these unanswered.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I am sure that we all sympathise with the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) in the difficult position in which he finds himself, and the difficulty that he has in making a case in this House as a new Member and as one faced with very grave charges; but I feel we shall all agree that the confidence which he has shown and the skill with which he has made his case before this Assembly indicate that he has not been put under any disadvantage thereby. The Report of the Public Accounts Committee is based upon the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. It is not the first time, nor will it be the last, on which firms coming under the criticism of the Comptroller and Auditor-General have felt nettled, and even enraged, by criticism. The Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is a Report of an officer of this House which is made to Parliament as a whole and not to any Department. It is true that on several occasions the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General has criticised Departments, as it has to do and rightly must do. The Public Accounts Committee has expressed its opinion and has quoted its evidence, and the facts are in black and white before the House. In the development of the case which I shall very briefly put before the House, I should like to make one or two general remarks and then turn to particular points which the hon. Member for Grantham has laid before us.
I would say that audit is and must be a process which involves unpopularity and criticism. Those who are popular auditors are not, I believe, doing their best in the work which they are put there to do. The purpose of audit—it is complained against by many people, but it is vital and essential, especially in war-time—is the protection of the man who is doing his job of work and the assurance to the citizen that the moneys which are being produced by him through taxation are being properly expended. The argument that at the present time audit can be dispensed with or minimised, or that prices can be quoted without close reference to costings, is one which cannot be upheld. At the present time close quoting in contracts is more necessary than ever before, because it is vital to the maintenance of the morale of the Home Front. Wastefulness and ex-

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travagance are crimes against morale, and it must not be thought in any way that because the Excess Profits Tax comes to take away, as we all know, a great swathe out of the profit of firms, lax quotation in contracts may be winked at or overlooked. The hon. Member for Grantham knocked the bottom out of that argument in his own speech, when he pointed out that we have to deal not merely with firms who have been established only for a short time and have a low standard year, but with firms which have been established for a long time and have a high standard year. It may well be that to overlook inaccurate costings or quotations for war-like stores in the case of a firm with a low standard year may mean that the quotations are inaccurate in the case of a firm with a high standard year, and those profits would not be recoverable by the subsequent incidence of Excess Profits Tax.
But be that as it may, taxation is no substitute for close costing. A tax is not the method by which you can deal with inaccurate contracting or costs which have been badly or loosely arrived at, and therefore the whole argument that contractors may subsequently have great inroads made into their profits by the Excess Profits Tax is one that will have to be dismissed.
The Public Accounts Committee find, on the report from the Comptroller and Auditor General, that in the case of several Government Departments—the Admiralty, the Ministry of Supply and the Ministry of Aircraft Production—the attempt to secure fixed price contracts at reasonable prices had suffered because of certain failure to obtain full information as regards current costs. Of course the fixed price contract is the best type of contract, but it must be a contract at a price which is fairly fixed, otherwise great sums will undoubtedly pass into the hands of the firms concerned, and it is, I submit, rather a paradox to suggest that a firm which, on provisional prices, was entitled to obtain a sum of £1,700,000—an amount afterwards reduced to £90,000—was a non-profit making firm. It seems to me to prove too much.
The simplest of all ways to avoid making excess profits which are taken away subsequently by taxation is not to charge prices which will result in those enormous figures, and that is the gravamen of the
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charge againt this firm. The gravamen of the charge is not at all that the firm was lax or slack in production. The gravamen of the charge against the firm and against the Department is that costs were not accurately determined, at a figure which would not result in the outturn of these enormous sums. I agree with the hon. Member for Grantham that the Department was to blame and the Public Accounts Committee has commented upon the Department, and has said that in its view the Department should have taken action earlier to secure the information which it desired. But that does not entirely exonerate those who quoted the prices.
Let me take the points which have been made one by one by the hon. Member. As he hit hard he will not, I think, mind hard hitting in return. He said that he hoped to dispose of all the points which have been made in the report of the Public Accounts Committee. I suggest that he has entirely failed to do so; and I hope to prove that to the House. In the first place, he said there have been no fresh suggestions of the withholding of guns by the company. He said that if there had been, it would not have been a very reprehensible thing because that was before the war and they were entitled to do so. It may well be that the firm was quite entitled to do so, but I think it is going a little far to suggest that in April, 1939, there was no sense of urgency among those concerned in the collection of warlike stores for this country. We all know that the sense of urgency was very intense and that Departments were under tremendous pressure, not only from this House but from their own knowledge of events. They desired to equip this country with the utmost speed with the warlike stores necessary, in view of the crisis which had already developed and was coming upon us with fearful speed. If the Department concerned had not done so, they would have been subject to the justest criticism from this House. We know that they were working under the very greatest pressure and that a sense of urgency was felt by all those who were immediately concerned in the negotiation of the contracts.
On the point of delay in delivery if the price were not settled, I and a number of hon. Members of this House examined witnesses, including those who had negotiated on behalf of the Ministry, and

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came to the conclusion that undoubtedly the Ministry was conscious of pressure while those contracts were being negotiated. There was no doubt of it in our minds, as a result of the examination of witnesses and having people actually before us. It is true that the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry said he considered that it should not be taken seriously, but he was not at the negotiations, and he was not in the room where the discussion took place as were the witnesses whom we had before us.
The Minister of Aircraft Production (Colonel Llewellin): I think he told the Committee that he had made extensive inquiries from the senior people then at the Ministry, whose responsibility it would have been.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: He did indeed, and the Committee took that into consideration. The Committee preferred to base their Report upon the statements made by the people who were there and whom they had seen, rather than upon the impressions derived subsequently from hearsay, whoever, and however highly placed the person was who laid the hearsay account before the Public Accounts Committee.
Captain Cunningham-Reid: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give the specific reasons for coming to those conclusions?
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The specific reasons for coming to those conclusions were that the officials who were immediately concerned had said and minuted it was their impression that the Company was undoubtedly unwilling to deliver guns until its price had been fixed. We have to weigh impressions here, because there is a conflict of evidence.
Mr. David Grenfell: Could not the simple fact be ascertained whether those guns had been manufactured and completed, but held up and not handed over?
Colonel Llewellin: At that moment, of course, no guns had been completed.
Mr. Benson: As a matter of fact, the particular group of guns concerned in this dispute as to delivery were not delivered until the price had been fixed. [HON. MEMBERS: "On whose authority?"] On the authority of the Minister.
Mr. Kendall: The hon. Member is not stating the facts. A few guns were ready for delivery, when an inspector stepped in and said that the rifling of the barrels was not satisfactory and turned those guns down. I gave that in evidence before the Public Accounts Committee. I also said it at the meetings of the Ministry, and there was no complaint of nondelivery based on prices.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The point is clearly one as to the views taken by a number of hon. Members of this House. I simply say that the Committee unanimously came to the conclusion, which they set down in their Report, that the firm was, apparently, adamant not to deliver. It is on page 12, question 5402 of these notes, which are contemporary, having been taken at the time by the Ministry. They were afterwards examined by the officials concerned. In our Report we say that it became evident
"that although they were proceeding with manufacture, the company were adamant in their determination not to deliver a gun to the Air Ministry until the price had been fixed. Your committee feel no doubt that officers of the Air Ministry in charge of negotiations were, in fact, influenced by the urgent desire to secure immediate delivery."
That is based on contemporary records taken while that meeting was going on.
Mr. William Brown: I should be much obliged if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would read the last phrase again. Does it say that the firm were adamant in their refusal to deliver a gun until "a", or until "its", price had been fixed?
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The Report has been before the House for months. The statement which I have just read out is until "a" price.
Mr. Brown: "A" price; that is the point.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Of course it is the point. The firm is standing up for its price.
Mr. Brown: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is reading it as though the firm said that they must have their price, but the language is plainly "a" price.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I think that is a quibble. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The fixation of a price requires the consent of two parties, as the hon. Member will agree, and unless the Company consented,

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the price could not be fixed. What was in dubiety and in question was whether a price had been fixed or not, and the Company was adamant in its determination not to deliver a gun until a price, which involved its consent, had been fixed. Now we come to the second point.
Mr. Kendall: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman will remember the evidence put in by myself, based on the Ministry's own letter. It was that this price was one which the Ministry said they could substantiate and asked us to agree with. It was not our price in any case.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The possible withholding of guns at that time was a matter of opinion, since the price was settled, and the guns were delivered. I do not wish to take up too much time on this point, but I say that it was the considered opinion of a Committee of this House, after hearing evidence, that at that time the Company were bringing pressure to bear upon the Ministry before they would agree to the fixing of a price and the delivery of their guns. As the hon. Member has said, that is a point of view which he considered not unreasonable at that time, seeing that, in his view, we were in peace, and that assurances had been given whereby the country would not, at an early date, find itself in war. Leaving that point—and that is not the only point—I come to the other two points made by the hon. Member.
Mr. A. Edwards: Let us just clear up this point. If I followed the argument, it was that, except for 6 per cent. of the contract, there was a provisional price. Do the Committee agree that the price was subject to revision?
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: No, Sir. The hon. Member for Grantham did not say that. He said his figures related to the total delivery of guns by his Company from the beginning of the war till now and that only 6 per cent. had been subject to a fixed price. He said 6 per cent. of the guns, and not of the contract. Next we come to the out-turn on the basis of the prices asked and paid to the Company.
Mr. Kendall: My first statement to the House was that this was untrue, and I still say that it is untrue that there was withholding of guns without a price being fixed.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: That was not the point which the hon. Member was just making. He was making the point that the fixed contract related to those guns to which this refers, a fixed contract or a contract of which only 6 per cent. was fixed. This was a fixed-contract price, and with that I think he will agree.
Mr. Munn: My right hon. and gallant Friend says that the firm of the hon. Member for Grantham threatened to withhold delivery. He bases that apparently on records of impressions given to the inquiry. Is there any record of the Company having refused to deliver guns?
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Obviously the Company did not write letters saying that it would withhold delivery. There are numerous references in the evidence to the effect that the Company said that if certain things were not done, deliveries would be held up or production would be interfered with. The Ministry always climbed down because of the urgent need for the delivery of these warlike stores, so the contingency did not artise.
Mr. Kendall: There was a specific instance where we told the Ministry we should have to curtail production because they would not give us any money with which to pay our wages.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The statement made by the hon. Member for Grantham as to the statement made by the Company is on record, that if more money was net given to the Company production would be held up. That can be dealt with in many ways. It is not necessary to overpay a company on a contract to get delivery of a warlike store. Coming to the next point, the costing of the guns, that is really the important part of the whole discussion, and the kernel of that is that in the evidence in this Report, on page 359, Appendix No. 2—I beg the hon. and gallant Member for Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid) to give me his attention on this point, because this is not an impression but a recorded fact—the House will find for the first time a statement signed both by the hon. Member for Grantham and the Director of Contracts of the Ministry of Aircraft Production, and that is a costing for these guns. That shows that in 1940 it was agreed on both sides that the cost of the gun was, on the Ministry's costing, £124. Certain items

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were brought in, which the company desired to be brought in, bringing the figure to £129. During that year, 1940, the Department and the Company were in constant communication as to the price which should be paid for those guns, and the price which the Company was putting upon those guns at that time. In September, 1940, the Company suggested that a provisional price be fixed of £300 per gun, when the costing price turned out to be, on their own showing, £129. In October the Ministry agreed to pay a provisional price of £270 per gun. On 20th February the Company wrote that they considered it reasonable, and the Ministry replied on 24th February, 1941:
"The Department notes that you believe that the price of £280 represents a satisfactory reduction on the guns' price in a previous contract. On the information before it the Department is unable to accept this price as being reasonable."
The Department, by subsequent negotiations, brought the figure down to as low as £168 a gun. During all that time the Company was standing out for the position that the gun in fact cost a great deal more to manufacture, and when £168 was suggested the Company sent back word that this was ridiculous, though the costing was afterwards brought out at £129 on the Company's own agreement. I suggest that shows a discrepancy which was totally unjustifiable.
Note should be taken of the date of this agreement as to costing—16th June, 1942, and the way in which this costing came about should also be taken notice of by the House. It was because of a direction issued by the Ministry to the Company to produce, not all the papers which the Company thought the Ministry ought to have, but all the papers which the Minister thought the Ministry ought to have, and there is a great deal of difference between those two points of view. It is not enough to say, "I have given you all the papers I think reasonable; I have given you papers out of which you should be able to draw your own conclusions." The important point is that the Company should deliver to the Ministry all the papers which the Ministry desire. Let me also point out to the House how that came about. It came about because of this direction issued by the Ministry on 24th March, 1942. Why was that direction issued? Because, during the earlier
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correspondence, the Ministry had written to the Company saying:—
"Possibly you do not realise that what we are asking from your company in the way of access to accounting and financial documents and records is exactly what we have obtained from other contractors where it is necessary to acquire such information. Also the investigation which our accountants have to make relate to supplies under a number of maximum price contracts where it is necessary to acquire such information; also that the investigations our accountants have to make relate to supplies under a number of maximum price contracts from the Ministry of Supply as well as to our supplies and we are bound to meet the requirements of that Ministry. Without the documents, so far withheld by your Company, our accountants cannot do their work properly."
That is not an opinion expressed to the Committee or by the Committee but the statement of the Ministry which would have to account to the House later on that—
"without the document so far withheld by your Company our accountants cannot do their work properly."
The final paragraph is:
"The representations in your letter are not relevant to the questions at issue. Consequently I must ask you to reconsider this again and let me have a reply at your earliest convenience."
The hon. Member for Grantham said he would dispose of that point because all the documents had been made available to the Ministry, that they were always at its disposal whenever it wanted them. What was the Company's answer to this letter asking them for the document so far withheld? Was it in fact to say, "These documents are in your possession or will be made available to you or they could have been obtained by you at any time you wish"? No, the answer of the Company was:
"I have considered carefully your letter of the 16th instant with reference to access to our records, and, in view of what I feel to be a serious matter of principle involved, I propose to refer the subject to our next meeting of directors which would normally be held on the first Monday in February."
If the document had in fact been in the possession of the Ministry for all those months, or if the Ministry could have had access to them at any time, surely the obvious answer was, "You have got them," not, "This is such a serious matter that we must have a meeting of our directors to consider it."
Mr. Kendall: It agrees with the facts that I have presented to the House that in fact the normal ledger which gives all

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costs was always at the disposal of the Ministry. The Board of Directors were Government nominees. I had to put before them the suggestion by the Ministry, and the Board agreed to ask that a direction should be issued to us. In any case, we asked for that direction. We do not mind the facts being stated.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I can do no more than read the actual correspondence with, not the Public Accounts Committee or the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but the Department which will have to account to this House and to the country. We have often seen accountants and offered them papers, and found that they have asked for considerably more papers in order to be able to complete their investigations.
Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Is there any reason why my right hon. and gallant Friend should confine his remarks to the third Bench below the Gangway?
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I apologise to my hon. Friend if I have not made myself audible to him. In a Chamber of this shape, it is necessary from time to time to make sure that one's remarks can be heard in a certain quarter. So far as I could understand, there was a certain amount of anxiety that my observations should be heard below the Gangway. I hope I have not been discourteous to Members in any section of the House. We are dealing here with the crux of the matter, which is that when the Ministry ask for papers without which its examination could not be carried out, the answer of the company was to call a directors' meeting. Why did it call a directors' meeting? Because it said that it wished for a direction. Why did it wish for a direction? It wished for this direction to protect the interests of the foreign shareholders, because, it said, "We are not merely nominees of the British Government but directors of a company, and we have a double capacity, and must be sure that these things are being done." It asks for a directors' meeting, without which, it said, it could not produce the papers. What becomes of this story that the papers had previously been produced? It is clear, on their own showing, that they were not producing all those papers beforehand. That weighed greatly with the Committee in its decision.
The first point is as to whether the Department was influenced or not in the
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course of the negotiations by the fear that if it did not come to a settlement the delivery of these vital warlike stores would be withheld and the second is as to the costings of those guns. The figures showed that in 1940 the price asked for every gun was around £280, and that the Company came to a very reluctant consent on the price of £168 after saying that it was quite ridiculous. The production of papers was not done until the direction was given by the Ministry, which direction was asked for by the Company on the ground that without that direction they would not be justified in producing those papers. [Interruption.] It was not the business of the Public Accounts Committee to ask for papers which the Ministry needed; it was for the Ministry to determine what papers it needed in order to carry out its job. The Ministry did not get those papers until it had given the direction asked for by the Company. These were the main points of the hon. Member for Grantham. He also made the point of whether the location of the factory should or should not be given. That question, of course, was laid before the security Ministries and considered by them, and they said that in their opinion the name of the factory, and thus the location of the factory, could not possibly be withheld.
As for the other points, I think they are dealt with by the White Paper. It is true that the hon. Member for Grantham, not consent with tackling the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the Public Accounts Committee, cast some very severe aspersions upon the White Paper, also. Naturally, I will leave that to the Government spokesman to defend, as it is the Government's White Paper. In general, on paragraph 122 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General's Report, the Public Accounts Committee felt it imperative upon them to take the points there made into consideration. The problem of taking the profit out of war is vital to the proper maintenance of the home front, and cannot be properly executed unless cases such as this are properly investigated and brought under public discussion. I think the Public Accounts Committee is justified in its investigation by the White Paper and the great sums which have been refunded to the Department, not to the Exchequer, so that it has passed cut of the power of the company to make any claims in respect of it.
Mr. W. Brown: The inference from what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has just said is that large sums of money have been poured back from the Ministry of Aircraft Production as the consequence of the action of the Public Accounts Committee. If that is true that is one thing, but if it is not true it is another. [Laughter.] That observation may appear a little trite, but I must recognise that it is the House of Commons I am talking to. Is it not the case that before the Public Accounts Committee began work on this matter, before it reported, negotiations were going on between the Department and the firm on the variable price, and that if the Committee had never sat at all those sums would still have gone back to the Department?
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I am perfectly content to stand on the White Paper, the headings of the White Paper, and the findings of the White Paper. The cover of the White Paper bears on it the heading:
"Action taken on Contract Cases referred to in the First Report from the Committee of Public Accounts."
The summary of the Committee's findings says that it considers that an early adjustment should be made. The action taken by the Department was that the sum of £90,000 was paid, compared with a total of nearly £1,700,000 had the price originally arranged been made final. Most of these prices—I want to be quite fair—were provisional and subject to adjustment in any event.
Mr. W. Brown: In any event.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Yes, the hon. Member will not deny that the negotiations, as I have shown, have been going on for years. Certainly it is within the knowledge of all Members here that, when the whole of Parliamentary interest and scrutiny turns upon a case such as this, it is essential to examine the case fairly, to back up the public service where that has to be done, if the Departments are to be sure that if they stand out in various cases the House of Commons will do its best for them. The public service is in the greatest difficulty in war-time, when, as I have said, the possibility of delay of warlike stores is a thing that no Department can stand up to. The only support in such cases is public opinion. Public opinion is brought to bear upon the case
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in point, and public action is taken in such a case. If you say that action would have been taken if the Public Accounts Committee had not sat, that is a matter of opinion. The Public Accounts Committee has sat and reported upon it, and certain action has been taken. I am content to leave it there, before the House of Commons, and I have little doubt the House of Commons will approve the action which was taken.
Mr. Simmonds: I think the House will agree with me, having listened to the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), that were we to have complete calm in which to carry out all our transactions these days with adequate staffs of an experienced and professional nature, many of the problems that have happened in this matter need never have arisen at all. I think the House will also agree with me that it would be fair to all concerned, both to the Department and to the Company, to bear in mind that many of these matters were under discussion at a time when this Island, as the Prime Minister has told us, stood daily in the gravest peril. In my constituency I have the honour to have many hundreds of factories, and I know from what has been told me from time to time of the pressure—and, very likely, proper pressure—brought by the Supply Departments upon armament manufacturers to get out the material and leave out all incidental points of finance to be considered at a later period. If we wish to be fair to all concerned when we look back on these matters three years, two years or one year afterwards, we should recollect the circumstances of peril in which this country stood when many of these transactions were under discussion and review. That is not to say that I would condone for a moment many aspects of these transactions which are brought to light by my right hon. and gallant Friend's Committee.
But I would ask the House for permission to leave the detailed issues and to proceed as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) did at the end of his speech, to consider some of the problems which are left outstanding from these discussions. I believe that any hon. Member who, in helping his constituents or otherwise, has come up against these problems of Wartime profits will agree that we are in fact trying to work an almost unworkable

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system. I refer particularly to the incidence of Excess Profits Tax. I have discussed this matter with hon. Members, and I sometimes feel that if they have not been involved in discussions with their constituents they do not fully see the force of the present system. I will take two companies, each having contracts from the same Ministry for £100,000 for a given product. Assume that the Ministry, as it may well have done in its wisdom, allows a profit of 5 per cent. on the turnover, so that each of these companies would show a nominal profit of £5,000. If the pre-War standard of company "A" was £1,000 and the pre-War standard of company "B" was £10,000, hon. Members will see that these two companies, rendering possibly equal service to the State, are put into entirely different positions.
It is at that point that any right hon. or hon. Gentleman will see clearly that owing to this wide disparity we must have costing. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh hit on one of the kernels of this problem when he said that there were not sufficient professional and experienced men now available to do the costing which was necessary in the public interest. Hon. Members will recollect that on several occasions there have been not only questions in the House but letters in "The Times" in which the Chartered Accountants' organisations and other associations have pointed out the grave dearth of skilled personnel to carry on this particular work. We therefore come to the point that, although we have these two companies on a standard of £1,000 and £10,000 respectively, with £5,000 profit on the particular contract, we have up and down the country to try and cost every contract that goes out. We cannot do it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer needs to give some direction and help to the Supply Departments. It may be argued that the company that has the £1,000 standard should be costed more urgently because unless that is done there will be no initiative to economise. On the other hand, it may be argued that the company which will retain the £5,000 because its standard is one of £10,000 should be costed because it ought to show whether some smaller profit might not in fact be tolerable and fair. Although in some Debates the financial issue is cast aside as being secondary, in others the Chancellor of the Exchequer clearly warns the House that the financial issue
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is in some respects a perilous one. I say, therefore, that on balance, for the moment, as a first step, Departments ought to investigate all contracts where the major amounts of money would remain with the contractors and would not pass back into the Exchequer in some way or other. I felt that my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove was not quite sound on the grounds of public financial policy in suggesting that if the money was to be returned via E.P.T., that did not go a considerable way, if you cannot cost all contracts, to meet the situation, rather than insisting that all these contracts must be costed and that anybody who pays excess profits is guilty of dereliction of duty. That certainly cannot be argued.
I would like to ask my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he replies, to tell us whether he has given any guidance to the Supply Departments as to the selection of companies which should be costed as a matter of urgency. The State, I think, should endeavour to limit all profits on contracts where those profits will rest with the contractor if they are excessive before it starts, as it did in the case of the company of the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall), worrying too much about companies with a low profit standard where the moneys will revert to the Treasury in any event. This dearth of costing staff is becoming serious from the national standpoint in another way. I think I am right in saying that when Departmental discussions were proceeding with the Ministry of Labour as to what classes should be deferred, one of the principal reasons why accountants and auditors were deferred was that they were revenue getters for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But, in fact, they are largely being prevented from being revenue getters because we are turning them into cost investigators. Members who are associated with large industrial organisations will know that some of the accounts for past years still remain open for what would normally be regarded as disgracefully long periods after the end of the accountancy period in question because there is no. accounting and audit staff to carry through this work.
What is the effect of that? It is that the Collector of Taxes cannot claim payment of taxes on any sound basis, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is, therefore,

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through his tax gatherers in the country, appealing to large organisations for a little more on account without any justifiable basis for such requests. I see that the Chancellor agrees with me—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): Not at all.
Mr. Simmonds: I beg my right hon. Friend's pardon. I thought he nodded his head in assent, and I will certainly withdraw that observation. But whether he nodded or not, I am quite certain that he has been given this information from time to time by his staff, because it is clear and it is widespread. I feel that one needs to draw the attention of the House to this fact, namely, that the accounts of large organisations are getting more and more behind and that according to present probabilities in the 12 months to come there will be a further lag. That is a very serious factor in the management of any organisation and particularly bad in industrial organisations when its products are so urgently required. I would like to ask the Chancellor if he will frankly take the House into his confidence in this matter and tell us where we are drifting in having transferred so many of our accountants and auditors to costing work. It is extremely difficult, unless one has read the whole of the published evidence, for any Member to decide all points of issue in this respect, and I feel that the time has come when we want to be very clear about what is primarily in the public interest.
I maintain—and I hope the Chancellor agrees—that it is the duty of Departments to see that excessive profits do return to the Exchequer and not merely to go through the rigmarole of costing, which draws off a great number of productive engineers from their work to discuss these problems with the cost acountants of the Departments. I believe that is turning the war into a paper battle, and I think we must review how far we can spare man-power for many of these investigations. Somebody well conversant with these matters has estimated that over 50,000 men and women are engaged in the cost accounting of the Departments or serving cost investigators as they visit industry. In these days, when every walk of life is being combed for man-power—and many of these men and women have
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brilliant minds—I think this whole subject needs careful scrutiny to see whether, while maintaining public morale and a sense of justice, we cannot find it possible to cut our coats in these respects a little more according to the cloth that is available.
Mr. Douglas: I am glad that the hon. Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) has referred to the topics he has dealt with, because it was part of the purpose of the Report of the Public Accounts Committee to deal not merely with the case we have been discussing so particularly to-day but also, in continuation of its previous Reports, to point out the general principles which should be followed by public Departments in placing contracts and in fixing the prices which should be paid in respect of those contracts. The right hon. and gallant gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), who is chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, has referred to the aspect of public morale which is involved when the impression becomes prevalent that excessive prices are being allowed to contractors in respect of Government supplies, and there are many other important factors not only of public morale but also of economic policy involved.
If contractors are allowed to charge prices which are higher than a fair cost of production and a reasonable profit, they are encouraged to look less carefully at their costings and to allow the costs to become inflated, and then you will very soon be faced with a steadily rising standard of costs due to lack of attention on the part of managements of companies, who will feel that no matter what the costs are, they will be able to get the price from the Government. Certainly, that is a principle which might lead to the most dangerous consequences, and it is something which will not be corrected by the incidence of Excess Profits Tax or any other form of taxation, because there is not available, even if the Treasury had the power, the staff and the skill necessary to investigate in detail the costs of manufacturers in order to find whether or not those costs are reasonable. The investigation which is made by the Inspector of Taxes is of necessity a very different kind of investigation from that which is made by the skilled cost accountants of the various Supply Departments,

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and it is upon that investigation that we must rely primarily in order to ensure that the prices which are charged to the Government during war-time are on a fair and reasonable basis.
The principle of competitive tenders has to a very large extent gone by the board, for the simple reason that the State requires the whole of the productive capacity which is available, and therefore, if every producer is to be required to produce the principle of competition automatically disappears, and prices have to be fixed in relation not to a general standard but in many cases in relation to the conditions of each individual supplier. They have to be fixed, in the case of a supplier whose costs of production are greatest, on the basis that he must be kept in existence, and if that basis were used in the case of other suppliers whose circumstances of production were more easy and whose costs were lower, it would automatically lead to an excessive price and an excessive profit being gained. That is the reason costing is absolutely imperative in existing conditions. It may be true, as has been said, that it involves the services of a very large number of people in order to carry it out, but if those services cease to be available, it will be impossible for Departments properly to control these transactions and certainly it will not be possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, through the machinery of the Inland Revenue, to control the profits, even if the Income Tax and the Excess Profits Tax are altered so as to attempt to skim off more of the profit than at the present time.
It should be remembered that this Report, after all, deals with only half a dozen cases. It would be misleading for anybody to draw the conclusion that these cases are typical ones, and that they represent the conditions in which the public is being served at the present time. On the contrary, the very remarkable fact is that out of hundreds of thousands of contracts which are being placed by the Government for stores and munitions of war of all kinds, there are only half a dozen cases which have called for the kind of comment which has been made in the Report. I think this shows that, on the whole, the Departments have been carrying out the duties entrusted to them in a conscientious and an efficient manner, and it shows also that the way in which these matters have been handled by
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the firms which have been required to supply the needs of the nation has, on the whole, been upright and honourable.
There has been a discussion in which the conclusions of the Public Accounts Committee with regard to one particular case have been challenged. That Committee sat for 21 days considering the matters which are dealt with in the Report. The utmost latitude was given to the Company. Its witnesses were allowed to say whatever they pleased and to come as often as they pleased; they were supplied with the shorthand notes of the proceedings and with copies of every document laid before the Committee. I think every Member of the Committee will agree with me that the Company was given the most ample opportunity to place its case before us. But the Committee, nevertheless, came unanimously to the conclusion which is now placed before the House. There was only one occasion on which a Member went to the length of asking for a vote to be taken upon a proposed Amendment to the Report, and in that case—I do not say whether it was material or not—the voting was 10 to one. Therefore, I say that the Report of the Committee represents a considered and unanimous view, and indeed, it has erred upon the side of moderation. It has been framed in restrained language.
With regard to the particular case with which we are now concerned, the Committee could have gone further. They could have drawn attention to what is now revealed in the published Minutes of Evidence and the Appendices to them—that this company persistently and deliberately endeavoured to obtain from the Ministry of Aircraft Production or from the Air Ministry prices which were far above the real costs of production as those were ultimately ascertained and agreed by both parties. And those costs must surely have been known to the Company, within some relatively small margin of error, throughout the major part of the period covered by these transactions. The Committee might also have drawn attention to the fact that the chairman of the Company put before the Ministry of Aircraft Production proposals for payments of other amounts besides the prices of the guns or ammunition that were being supplied to the Government, demands for the payment of a large sum in respect of licences, for a very large fee

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for the construction of shadow factories, and for a payment to be substituted—
Mr. Kendall: It is a mis-statement to say that we asked for a very large construction fee. I know of no time when I myself, as managing director, asked on behalf of the Company for any large management fee or construction fee. We have only just recently accepted the proposal of the Ministry of Aircraft Production to pay us a small fee for managing their factories for them. Never at any time has it been in the mind of the Company or in my own mind to ask for any fee of any description from anybody to run their factories, which I claim we have done most efficiently.
Mr. Douglas: The figures are available to anyone who chooses to read this Report. The sum that was claimed in respect of royalties, and production at other factories, amounted to £234,000, the sum that was claimed as a construction fee in respect of the managed factories was £30,000, and, in addition to that, the company claimed that the mode of payment for the guns should be altered so that part of it should be turned into a capital claim, which obviously would not be liable to Income Tax or to Excess Profits Tax, and the amount which they suggested should be paid to them under that head was £140,000. That is a total of £404,000 which was claimed in respect of those matters, as well as a fee of £50,000 a year in respect of the management of the two adjoining shadow factories. Those are the claims of the Company and not the allegations of anyone else. In view of those facts and of the contrast between the prices asked and the prices ultimately ascertained, I say that the Public Accounts Committee dealt with the matter in reasonable-and moderate language which did nothing to exaggerate the case.
Mr. A. Edwards: I know very little about this matter except what I have heard to-day. Until to-day I had never spoken to the hon. Member who is being discussed. I hope the Minister will give us some enlightenment on this. If, as he has told us, four of the directors were nominees of the Government Department, all the criticism against the Company appears to be against the nominees, because one man
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could not overrule four other people. Then we have the appointment of the chairman, a very eminent business man, trusted entirely by the Government. How is it that this was not brought out by him at a much earlier date? The attack seems to be on a single individual who is a Member of the House. Someone ought to tell us why it is not on the directors who are Government nominees. As far as I can judge from what has been said, it is the Government Department that is mainly to blame. No one will defend immense profits, but I have heard nothing to contradict what the hon. Member has told us, that in any case this enormous sum of money must have reverted to the Government and that at no time did he have any absolute control. I can say from first-hand experience of the War Expenditure Committee that there is an immense number of people engaged on costings. If a manufacturer succeeds in diddling all those people, it mainly comes back through Excess Profits Tax. Is there anyone with any knowledge of manufacturing who will say they could not have gone into the factory at any time and looked at the job and told him what he should have been receiving? He has told us, moreover, that the essential documents were always available. I do not think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman did justice to that point. I think he tried to slide over it. If the essential documents were always available to those investigating, it is not vitally important that this or that specific document was refused.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The essential documents are those considered essential by the auditors. Anything beyond that is a matter for discussion.
Mr. Edwards: I agree, but that does not dispose of the point. [Interruption.] We are not talking about the last penny We are talking about an accummulation of £1,000,000. It is not a question of a few pounds more or less. That is always subject to revision. Someone could have fixed a target price—an agreed price. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman did not do justice to the point. Looking at the matter dispassionately, it was a point that any manufacturer under our present system had a right to make. Why should they put themselves to all this trouble and all this expense, organising production on a very large scale, without knowing whether

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they were going to pay their way? In the result they hardly did that. I do not think the position is quite as serious as has been made out. I have it on good authority that the Ministry of Supply has great difficulties about this costing business; I wonder if it would be an exaggeration to say that they are 60,000 cases behind in their costings. There are 60,000 cases in which they cannot fix the price. It shows how difficult it is to catch up with these things. I accept the statement that this is not a typical case, but I challenge anyone to say that there are not many more cases on the same basis, though there may not be such a large amount involved. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman wants to pursue the job that he has started, I could put him on a better scent. I have disclosed to the Investigation Committee a case of bribery and corruption. They did not have the courage to face that. I wish we could set about some of those cases. It is not a new thing, as the Paymaster-General can confirm, for people to refuse to give their costs. It started very early in the war. Before the war the machine-tool manufacturers got into trouble through refusing to disclose their costs.
Why did not the Minister who issued this belated order issue it at once, instead of having all this nonsense? They had the power to control the hon. Member's establishment. They could put in a controller at any time they liked. Why did they not do it? Why did they go on month after month and year after year, and then make a fuss like this? If anybody is really to blame it is primarily the Department, which ought to have taken action earlier. It is unfair to let it develop as it has done and to make a scape-goat of one particular firm. We have had a lot of these investigations into costs. The Admiralty were placing contracts involving millions of pounds, but there was not a man who could tell the Admiralty that they were getting value for their money, except a man called a recorder who was then paid £4 10s. a week. We could tighten up a good deal in our costings with fewer people. What is wrong with an auditor of a company giving a certificate that a price is right? What is the difference between the auditor of my company giving the Government a certificate as to costs and then taking him away from me and putting him in a Government Department where he does
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the same thing? Very often the costing is done by incompetent people. The Government could have said to the Company, "You say this is the price you want; give us your auditor's certificate." It would have stopped all this trouble.
Why did not the Department give a tip to the War Expenditure Committee? That Committee could have dealt with the case with full authority to call witnesses and to get costs. It could have got the documents which we are told the Company refused to disclose and could have settled this matter within a very short time. Moreover, could not somebody have told by accumulation of funds that there was something wrong without having all this publicity about it? An intelligent person could have ascertained the costs without any trouble. I believe that this trouble and fuss could have been entirely avoided. It is unfortunate that it has been allowed to come to the House and to get all this publicity when the people in the Department were responsible. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman, in arguing against this Company that they put in a high price knowing they could manufacture cheaper, was not arguing against a particular company; he was arguing against a system which he supports. He cannot say that it is unusual for somebody to put in a price knowing full well that he can manufacture for half that price. Let me say something about a company with which I am connected. We were doing a comparatively small turnover in 1939. We imported some machine tools from America and had to ask a certain price for our goods. There had to be some costings and I went into it carefully. I found that we could reduce the price by 10 per cent. and no more. The turnover has gone up in the last few years and we can sell to-day at one-third the price. If the turnover goes up an enormous amount you cannot compare the costs of 1939 with those of 1942, and it is unfair to do it. Although it is right that these things should be investigated there are much more important cases that should be investigated. I hope that the Minister will accept my offer to put him on a much better scent than this one. If he really wants a job of this kind in order to keep the war clean so far as profiteering is concerned, I will collaborate with him and promise him that I will put him on

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a much more valuable scent than the one he has been pursuing.
The Minister of Aircraft Production (Colonel Llewellin): One of the remarks that fell from the lips of my hon. Friend the Member for East Middlesbrough (Mr. A. Edwards) was that the Department and the Government directors of the Company are largely responsible for this matter. With any condemnation that has been made of the Department I will deal in due course, but I should like to make clear from the start how the four gentlemen mentioned became directors of this Company. There were two French gentlemen and two Swiss, who were either in Switzerland, from which country they could not get here, or in occupied France just after we had evacuated France and it had collapsed. It seemed right to Lord Beaverbrook who was then Minister of Aircraft Production—and I was in the Ministry with him at the time—that these four gentlemen, who were a majority of the board, should be replaced by four people resident in this country, who were British nationals. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking those four gentlemen for undertaking this task. None of them, as would be expected, got a large salary for doing so. They did it at the request of the then Minister of Aircraft Production, and I think that the country as well as the Ministry should thank them for taking on that work. Another thing which I very much appreciate about this Company is its extremely good record of production. In particular, the House should be grateful to the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) for that. He has been the mainstay of the production of that factory. He started it here, he manages two other shadow factories for us, and, as he told us, he serves on the Automatic Gun Board, for which also we thank him. He serves there because he is a good producer and a man who, talking about the production of guns, knows what he is talking about. I would like to thank him for what he has done.
Mr. A. Edwards: Is it clear that the other directors were equally responsible with the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall)? It seems to have been suggested otherwise.
Colonel Llewellin: It is the board of the Company as a whole which is responsible
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for anything that might have gone amiss in the actions of the Company. Let me, however, make one other point about the four directors. Their positions are not quite the same as those of directors elected in the ordinary way at annual meetings. There was called a special meeting of the Company at which they were elected, but the difference between that meeting and a number of other company meetings is that 92 per cent. of the shareholders were not represented at the meeting at which the directors were elected. They were, therefore, elected by only 8 per cent. of the shareholders. That, I think, bears out a point that was made by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) when he said that they had to think of the shareholders' interests, but what they were thinking of was much more the position in which they might be placed, having got control when 92 per cent. of the shareholding had never taken any part in electing them, indeed, had no opportunity of doing so because they could not get to the meeting.
Perhaps I may now deal with the speech made by the hon. Member for Grantham. He said that a lot had been said about the figure of £1,700,000 mentioned in the White Paper. It is true that many newspapers have quoted it as though it were a figure of profits that were going to be automatic, but if one reads on one finds that it is qualified by the words:
"Compares with a total of nearly £1,700,000 had the prices originally arranged remained final."
There was no idea that those original prices were to go on during the whole of these three, four or five contracts for guns. Nobody suggested that they were going on the whole time.
Sir George Schuster: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman answer a question which has been puzzling me? What is the precise meaning of the words "the prices originally fixed"? My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) talked about the prices provisionally fixed. I want to know whether it means that the prices which were provisionally fixed on each contract as contracts succeeded one another, or refers to prices fixed for the original contract at the beginning of the whole period of production? Is it a com-

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parison between provisional prices as fixed over the three years or does it go back to the beginning?
Colonel Llewellin: I think it refers both to the provisional price contracts and to the prices that were the original prices on the first two contracts. Those were the two fixed contracts which there was no obligation in law—I say purposely "in law"—on the company to re-open and to go on with the provisional prices. Let me come now to the next point. It is not really one for me to defend, but I would like to say a word about it. The hon. Member for Grantham said he thought it rather thoughtless that the Public Accounts Committee should have given such publicity to a firm engaged in this production. All I can say, as it has had the publicity, is that one of the things to the credit of the hon. Member and of his employees, apart from their good production, is that they have the record of being the only factory in this country which has brought down an enemy plane with guns made and manned in their own works. It is just as well that everybody should know that they have got those guns there, and I have not the slightest doubt that they are determined to take the same toll again of any enemy who may attack them.
The nest point the hon. Member made was that the Department did not make any careful check on the draft report from the Comptroller and. Auditor-General. It has been explained that the Comptroller and Auditor-General is an officer of this House. It is not for a Department to check his comments. The only reason why his report is submitted to the Department, to be looked at before issue, is to ask whether he has got his facts right, and so the only thing open to the Department is a comment on the facts and not to comment on the Auditor-General's comments. The next point which the hon. Member made with which I think I should deal is that at one time the guns were not urgently required. In fact, he said that Lord Beaverbrook himself was wondering whether he ought not to close that production and go on to something else. I may say, because I was with him, that Lord Beaverbrook and I happen to be two people who always believed in this gun and believed that it would work. At that early time of the Battle of Britain we were using the ordinary
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machine gun in large numbers in fighters. There was, and it is quite obvious there was likely to be, a good deal of opinion one way or the other as to whether a mass of machine guns or a fewer number of the 20 mm. guns constituted the best armament for our fighting planes, but Lord Beaverbrook himself was most anxious to go on with this production. I remember several interviews which he had with different people about it, and eventually the Commander-in-Chief Fighter Command and the Air Ministry came round to the point of view that we wanted the cannon gun, either instead of or at any rate in addition to the machine gun.
The next point is a material one, on which I shall certainly disagree with the hon. Member. He said that it was not true that over a period of time the company withheld books that were indispensable to the inquiry. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvin-grove referred to the letter from the Permanent Secretary of my Ministry on 16th January, which said:
"According to the best professional advice available to me I am informed that no investigation is complete which stops short of tying up detailed figures of income and expenditure with those appearing in the final accounts."
It was the books that would enable that tying-up to be done of which the Ministry had not at that time been able to get disclosure. This reply came from the hon. Member:
"I have considered carefully your letter with reference to access to our records, and in view of what I feel to be the serious matter of principle involved I propose to refer the subject to our next meeting of directors."
The next meeting of directors considered the point, and thus it is only fair to refer to the next letter from the hon. Member on 18th March, 1942:
"The question of disclosure of accounts was referred to our Board at a recent meeting. After the discussion I was requested to inform you that as the Board as reconstituted in 1940 represents a number of absent shareholders it should, for its protection, ask for a direction to be given to the company for the production of accounts and balance-sheets."
On 24th March we issued the necessary directions, which I sanctioned at that time.
Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Was that subsequent to the submission of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General?
Colonel Llewellin: No, I think it was not. I have not the position quite clearly in my mind, but to be quite frank and honest with the House, when I went back to the Ministry I heard that this matter was being investigated by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and I did determine that we ought to get on to the matter pretty, quickly and the direction was issued not very long after that. Whether it was actually published before, I do not know, but I knew it was coming. Of course, the Ministry knew as well. We had not got the books that the auditor thought were fully necessary. Really, the charge which I have to face on behalf of the Ministry at this Box to-day is why we did not act sooner and use our powers. In their Report, the Public Accounts Committee say:
"Your Committee appreciate that the Ministry were anxious, in the interests of production, to have the voluntary co-operation of the company, but consider that they were seriously at fault in failing to recognise at an early date that the use of compulsory powers would be necessary."
While this delay, if it be an unnecessary delay, was going on, we were paying only provisional prices. We had never, fixed a contract at all. We were paying enough money for the Company to carry on its production, which nobody wanted to stop. That was going on all the time, and from that point of view there was no great urgency in settling, because the guns were being produced. We were paying provisional prices only. If they were too high, we could get the money back at a subsequent date, and if the provisional prices were too low, which we did not think and nor did the Ministry, of course the Company could have the extra paid to them.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Has the Minister's attention been given to the evidence of his own Permanent Secretary on that point, on the question of the provisional price?
Colonel Llewellin: On what page of the Report?
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: I am dealing with the transcript at the moment, where it says:
"If you fix a provisional price, unless the other party agree there is no possibility of modifying that price?
Answer: No."
An Hon. Member: The Company never agreed to it.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: That may well be, but I am taking what the Permanent Secretary said at that time. He said that if a provisional price was fixed without the consent of the other party there was no possibility of modifying it. That was given before the Committee in evidence. That was not my suggestion; it is the suggestion of the arrangement under which the Ministry of Aircraft Production was working at the time of the provisional price.
Colonel Llewellin: That may be. I cannot find the actual piece of evidence. I have read it all through and it took me an awfully long time.
Mr. Hopkinson: May I help the Minister by saying, as a contractor within his Ministry, that that is always the understanding I have had of that clause?
Colonel Llewellin: At any rate, whether that be right or wrong, let me say that we did not look upon this Company, and we do not look upon the Company now, as crooks. Let that be quite clear. I do not look, at the moment, upon the hon. Member for Grantham in the least in that light. After all, there were four gentlemen whose nomination had been recommended by the Ministry of Aircraft Production and they were a majority of the Board. We certainly did not look upon them in that light. If they had found, as indeed it turned out in practice, that the provisional payments were too high, we believed that they would make a refund. The White Paper that has been presented to the House seems to me to confirm us in that view, so do not let us all go round and say: "You cannot trust the people you are dealing with." The great point about the people in Great Britain is that you can trust the vast majority of companies and of individuals, and the British M.A.R. Company is no exception to that rule.
Mr. Benson: Is it not a fact that the form of provisional contract which is now in operation has been entirely recast and that the recasting is due entirely to the experience the Ministry have with the British M.A.R. Company?
Colonel Llewellin: To be quite honest, I do not know, but I am trying to find out. Let me now go on to the argument which I was putting to the House. It is true that we were at that time overpaying this company and that at the same time—

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this has not so far been brought out—the Government were thinking of purchasing this company. A great part of 1941 was taken up on the basis that there might be a purchase of the rest of the company, which runs in pretty well with the shadow factories, which are near it. From that time it became unimportant to go on with the investigation as to detailed prices, if we were to buy the whole concern. The third reason why this thing has—if it has—dragged on too long was referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) who said in his opening remarks: "You cannot expect accountancy to be complete"—perhaps it is not quite in his own words—" and if it is to be complete it can sometimes not be speedy." That was the effect of his statement. It is a tremendous burden.
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I did not mean in any individual case. I meant that if the accountancy is to cover all the transactions and all the contracts you could not have a very speedy decision.
Colonel Llewellin: I did not mean to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman but I took it that his argument was that there was such a mass to do that you could either have a complete accountancy in a certain number of individual cases or, if you had a lot of cases to deal with, you could not expect it to be speedy in all of them. I do not think that people in the House and in the country realise what a tremendous burden is placed on a few senior civil servants in a busy Ministry like mine and the tremendous strain that these men have to take. They have an immense number of contracts to deal with. The staff is expanded a bit but in the end the work practically all comes back on the shoulders of about half a dozen men. I would like to pay tribute to these men. They do their work extremely well. The fact that only a few cases come up from a Department such as mine to the Public Accounts Committee shows that the Comptroller and Auditor-General also thinks that, by and large, they do their work extremely well. With this tremendous amount to do, you cannot always expect things to be done quite as quickly as you would have them done under the less pressure of peace-time days. I ask the House not to be intolerant in matters of delay, because
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of the tremendous pressure that is being placed upon these men.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) was quite right in saying that the form of the contract had been altered. It is true that the question arose during the examination by the Ministry of certain aspects of their relations with British M.A.R.C, but the alteration in the form of contract was not made because of any anxiety on the part of the Ministry that they would be unable to agree with the Company an equitable adjustment of the provisional prices originally arranged. I have dealt with this question of delay, but there is one other point with which I wish to deal which was made by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvin-grove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot). He said that they had accepted the account of a junior officer of the Department as against the Departmental view as expressed by the Accounting Officer. I think if we draw that line we are getting on to rather dangerous ground. There may be a lot of people who say that the view in a Department about a certain matter is X. It may be that I, for instance, not being on the financial side, but mainly on the other side, have the advice given to me that X is what we should do, and also that Y is what we should do. There may be a large number of X's. I am thinking about a particular case. But the ultimate view of the Ministry must be that of the Minister who is responsible to this House.
I should have thought that the ultimate view on an accounting matter must be that of the Accounting Officer responsible to his own Minister and to the Public Accounts Committee, and I should have thought we were getting on to a dangerous line if we started departing from that principle. Apart, however, from this general question of principle, whether or not in the course of a discussion round a table somebody, in April, 1939, said, "We are not going to deliver the guns until you give us a price," I really think too much has been made of that. It is a remark which may have been made in bargaining. It is a remark that may well have been made to try to urge on a Ministry to fix a price which, naturally, every manufacturer rather wants to do. But to say that that means that the attitude of this Company was a kind of

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sabotaging of the war effort, or something like that, is really straining the remark beyond anything that ought to have been done, because, whatever may be said, this Company has produced the goods.
Let me, in my final words, deal with the White Paper. I think that neither the Public Accounts Committee nor myself on behalf of the Ministry can take the full credit for what is a good settlement, and of course the Company takes its share of having made this agreement with us. But a settlement of this sort would have been made, that I can assure the House, Public Accounts Committee or no Public Accounts Committee. On the other hand, I pay my tribute to the Public Accounts Committee for having fixed attention on it—my own attention amongst other people—because one cannot know everything that is going on in the Department. By their Report they enabled us to get what they recommended—an early solution of this problem. And I hope, considering the small sum which will be left to this company—and the hon. Member for Grantham as far as I can make out is right in saying they will get £309 actual cash profit which anyone can work out for three years—that the House will think it is a good settlement. I hope that now I shall not have to come before this House again on financial transactions, because my chief aim in my present Ministry is to go on getting larger and better production.
Mr. William Brown: I should like to say at the outset how much I value the speech of the Minister of Aircraft Production. I regard it as the fairest and the most judicial contribution to this discussion that we have heard from the benches on that side of the House to-day, and I compliment the Minister on his fairness and on imparting some sense of judgment into the kind of comment that has been based on the Report of the Public Ac counts Committee. I am interested in this matter from three points of view. My life for the last 30 years has been spent in and around the Civil Service, and in the Ministry of Aircraft Production, which is, together with my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall), attacked in the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, there are some hundreds of members of my own trade union organisation. When the Civil Service does
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wrong I am not averse from seeing it criticised. Indeed, when I think it is wrong I sometimes take the lead in criticising it myself. But I have seen enough of the work of Government Departments to want, when criticism of this kind is made, to investigate the situation first before I am satisfied that criticism is valid. That is the first interest I have in this matter.
The second interest is the hon. Member for Grantham. Like an hon. Member who spoke earlier, I had never met the hon. Member for Grantham until I came into this place, but anybody who, standing on his own feet, fights with and beats the combined political caucuses of Britain at a by-election is a man who attracts, in his own right, my favourable notice and regard. That is my second interest, the desire to see that a fellow Independent Member gets some fair play. My third interest is the interest which every Member of this House has in the public interest involved. I wish to say a few words on each of these aspects. So far as the Ministry of Aircraft Production is concerned, there has been a more than adequate, indeed a brilliant, reply given by the Minister to the particular charges directed against his Department. May I add one word in his defence? It is a tragedy of the life of the Civil Service or of a Minister that his or its record is never judged as a whole.
If I am the head of a business enterprise, in that capacity I make many mistakes, but if at the end of the year my good decisions have outweighed my bad ones, the shareholders will approve what I have done. But with a civil servant no such general judgment is exercised. He is tried on each individual thing separately. If he has done well nobody praises him, and if he had done badly he is condemned on that isolated thing, and everything else is forgotten. If it were the case that the Ministry of Aircraft Production had erred in respect of the two charges made against it, the first of which is that it had made a fixed price contract for the second of these contracts—[An HON. MEMBER: "That was the Air Ministry."] Well, the umbrella of my charity is so wide that it embraces the Air Ministry as well as the Ministry of Aircraft Production—I would say, "Very well, but please look at the other side of the account." Some day somebody in this

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place will do justice to the work of the Ministry of Aircraft Production in preventing the defeat of this country in war, for, under Providence, one of the things which has saved us is the R.A.F., and they could not have done so without the work of the Ministry of Aircraft Production behind them.
I turn to the hon. Member for Grantham. The total effect of the unjudicial report of the Public Accounts Committee, plus the inevitable dramatisation of those criticisms in the public Press, has been to give my hon. Friend a very raw deal indeed. I did not know him before I came here, and I learned of this British M.A.R.C. issue in the same way as any other member of the British public did. It seemed to me that he was being pilloried in the eyes of Britain on charges of the utmost gravity, charges which, if not refuted, were bound to ruin his reputation as a decent, patriotic citizen. What were the charges? One was that he had blackmailed the Government. I am using blunt language, but that is how the man in the street talks. He is alleged to have said, "We will not deliver a gun until you have agreed to the price we have made." Secondly, he is alleged to have withheld over a long period material which the Ministry found it necessary to have. The third charge is that, in fact, the company has extorted vast unjustified sums from the public Exchequer, which were drawn back into the public Exchequer only as a result of the self-sacrificing efforts of the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and his colleagues of the Public Accounts Committee. I challenge any Member to deny that the effect of the Report was to make that impression on the mind of every man and woman who read the newspaper reports. I agree that if those charges were true there ought to have been an impeachment of the Member for Grantham. The fact that they were not true is indicated by the lame ending of the Report.
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: What does the hon. Member mean? Does he suggest that the Public Accounts Committee is in a position to go beyond the duty put upon it by this House?
Mr. Brown: I do not suggest that. I suggest that the right hon. and gallant Member has shown by this Report his
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incapacity for fair assessment of facts, and for drawing reasonable conclusions from facts. If any evidence were wanted you would find it in the utterly unjudicial character of the speech he has made today. I say to him that that was not the speech of an unprejudiced judge, but the speech of a would-be executioner. It was about as unjudicial a summing up of the facts as it has ever been my melancholy pleasure to listen to. Let me take some of the points he made. I do so for his good, so that he may never commit the same offence again; I want to bring home to him the enormity of his offence. He said that there was a refusal to deliver any guns until the firm had got its price. I intervened at that point, and tried to draw distinction between the phrase "its price" and the phrase "a price." The right hon. and gallant Member replied to me in a way which indicated that he saw not the slightest distinction between the two. There is all the difference in the world. It is one thing to go to the Government and say, "I will not let you have a gun until you agree to my price, which is £X," and another thing to say, "You ought not to ask me to lay down a plant and agree to vast sums of capital expenditure without a price being agreed." If the right hon. and gallant Member does not realise the difference, he may still justify his place in the Brains Trust but not hi;; place as chairman of the Public Accounts Committee of this House.
Take his point about the refusal to supply information. There is really no contradiction between what he says and what the hon. Member for Grantham says. He says, "Your firm withheld certain documents and papers." The hon. Member for Grantham says, "We gave all the information necessary to a fair computatiou." You can give information without necessarily giving the particular document. If the Minister had not already spoken I would have liked to ask him whether when the order was issued at the request of the company itself, for these documents to be produced, and the documents were produced, there was as much as a halfpenny difference in the estimate of the fair working costs
Colonel Llewellin: We then had details which we had not got before; so the papers were necessary.
Mr. Brown: But the whole dispute was one not of substance, but of form. The

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firm says, "Here is the information"; and the Department says, "Yes, but we must be the judge of what documents we want." Now I come to the third point. The right hon. and gallant Member implied that it was because of the work of the Committee that large sums of money were going to be thrown back into the public Exchequer which would have been lost but for the work of the Committee. I interrupted at that point, and asked whether it was not the case that negotiations for the adjustment of the provisional price were going on before the Public Accounts Committee had sat, and that if the Committee had never sat at all, the ordinary Departmental processes would have thrown back the money into the Exchequer. The right hon. and gallant Member gave me a thoroughly disingenuous reply. He said that the fact was that the Committee had reported and that the money would now go back to the Exchequer, thereby confirming the innuendo that but for the work of this Committee the money would not have gone back to the Exchequer. I am glad that the Minister made it perfectly plain that ordinary departmental processes would have brought this money back to the Department.
Mr. Hopkinson: The same amount?
Mr. Brown: You could not take much more. You have left the fellow only £309 for three years, the figure of £309 which the Minister confirms. Here is an identity of evidence between the Departments and the hon. Member—£309 for three years—and I say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not be much harder than that. But how disingenuous it was to leave the public under that impression. He talks about concern for public morale. Nothing can be more destructive of public morale than to allow the belief to grow that here is a rapacious firm charging outrageous profits which are only got back through the work of the Public Accounts Committee. This is just not true from my knowledge of the procedure, and from the evidence of the Minister himself.
Sir Irving Albery: A matter of some substance has been raised by what the hon. Member has just said. As I recollect the evidence which came before the Committee, it became clear that
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the company would not be in a position to pay the amount which would be due from it under Excess Profits Tax because a great deal of the money had already gone into the assets of the Company. That appears to be borne out by the White Paper which explains that the Department has to buy some of the assets of the Company. I take it that by that means alone it is able to refund some of the money?
Mr. Brown: Certainly not. There is another and immediate obvious remedy. You could hold future contracts until you could adjust the balance. In any case you would have the assets. But this is not the point I am on at the moment. The point is that it is disingenuous. It would leave the House and the country, if there was no correction, under the impression, the thoroughly bad impression, that if it had not been for the Public Accounts Committee it would not have been found out. I have been at some pains to say what I think about the Public Accounts Committee for this reason. I am not going to follow the discussion into the social arrangements after the war nor the ideal functions of the-Committee as a Committee. But if the Public Accounts Committee is to do a good job for this House, it must so comport itself in its Reports and proceedings as to leave no shadow of doubt that it is an independent auditing body and not a political Star Chamber. I read through every page, and there were 600 or 700 pages, of the evidence—a penance but a necessary penance—and I make bold to say that from the time that case opens, in the book of evidence, there are men on that Committee who make it plain that they have made up their minds on conviction at the very start. If I am challenged I will mention names. It was obvious from the proceedings that there were men that were determined to have a conviction, and that is not the spirit in which to do the work of the Public Accounts Committee. I feel the House and the hon. Member for Grantham have been badly treated, and that the whole origin of that treatment is the injudieious treatment of evidence, pro and con, by the Public Accounts Committee.
There is really no substantial issue left. Agreement has been reached between the Ministry and the Company so that there is nothing to argue about there. There is

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only one issue left in this House in my view, and that is for the House to make it plain that we desire the Public Accounts Committee in future to be free from political bias, judicial in its treatment and evidence and in the character of the Reports it brings to us. If the Debate has done no more than make it plain that the newest arrival, even if he is an Independent, in this House, can rely upon people coming to his help to see he has a fair chance of a square deal, then it will not have been wasted.
Mr. Austin Hopkinson: I want to deal with one or two things that the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. Brown) has just said. He makes an indictment of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) on three grounds—first, that he made what in the opinion of the hon. Member for Rugby was a very disingenuous use of the difference between the expression "its" price and "a" price. The House is an intelligent body and knows that the issue raised by the hon. Member for Rugby was false, because "a" price means a price which has been agreed between the two parties which automatically becomes "the" Company's price at the same moment that it becomes "the" price of the Ministry. That is what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove meant.
Mr. Brown: It is nothing of the sort.
Mr. Hopkinson: It is the agreed price between the two parties, and therefore it is the price of both parties.
The next point is this: The Auditor-General's Report stated that there was a refusal to supply essential information. The hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) backed up by his newly found friend the hon. Member for Rugby said that all necessary information was disclosed. That is to say, the standing charges in bulk were disclosed, But the essential points of what the Ministry wants to do by costing is not only to find out what the thing did cost but to get approximate information on what it ought to cost, and detailed standing charges are essential for that purpose. The evidence before the Public Accounts Committee, in spite of the adulation of Lord Beaverbrook expressed in telegrams to the hon. Member for Grantham, shows that the efficiency of
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the place is very low. It must be low. The size of the standing charges shows that the efficiency was very low indeed. In certain respects it is very difficult to get information from the available evidence, but in certain cases the standing charges amount to hundreds per cent. on the wages bill. My information, subject to correction, is that the wages bill was inflated from the start, and that the amounts paid by that particular firm to the workpeople were greatly in excess of amounts paid on similar works elsewhere.
Mr. Kendall: The hon. Member's statement is both disgusting and disgraceful, and I will not have it, as he says, that we make the cheapest kind of shell in this country. I say that is untrue.
Mr. Hopkinson: Does the hon. Member deny it?
Mr. Kendall: I deny it most emphatically.
Mr. Hopkinson: I said that my information was to the effect that the wages rates paid by the Grantham works were in excess of the wages paid for similar work in other works. The hon. Member for Grantham says it is incorrect and I accept his statement.
Mr. Kendall: Thank you.
Mr. Hopkinson: I say on the point as to the disclosure of the detailed items of the standing charges that what did come out in evidence shows the scale of the expenses that were allowed in certain cases. What did come out was ultimately the sort of salaries that were being paid and paid tax-free in some instances. I say without fear of contradiction by experienced manufacturers and particularly engineers who like myself have spent their lives in developing new products, that these charges were thoroughly excessive even if accepting the hon. Member for Grantham's statement that the lowest possible wages were paid to the workers.
I can give an example. In my own works, which is largely engaged upon very difficult work of a highly varied nature—the Minister of Aircraft Production knows that a lot of it has to do with bottle-necks which other people have given up—for last year the ratio of standing charges to wages was 68.3 per cent., and this year it is going to be down considerably. But in some works we get hundreds per cent.

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added to wages which in many instances are undoubtedly inflated, and the wretched taxpayer has to pay. It was absolutely essential for the Ministry—and they should have done it long ago if they had done their duty—to know exactly how the taxpayers' money was being spent and to get at the private ledger.
The third part of the indictment of the hon. Member for Rugby was that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove had claimed all sorts of things for the work of the Public Accounts Committee for which that Committee was not entitled to praise. Well, there might possibly have been, underlying the speech, a natural and right tendency to congratulate his Committee, but not to claim that the whole of the return of this money to the taxpayers was due to the work of the Committee. To suggest that he said the latter seems to me to be a complete travesty of what he did say. The whole world knows that the Ministry would never have acted as it has done, with such extreme haste and so severely, unless this whole thing had been exposed and brought before that Committee. I am not blaming the present Minister, but look at the position of the Ministry. If you go back over the whole history of the company, and the dealings with Lord Beaverbrook and his Ministry, I say that anybody who has taken the trouble not only to read the evidence but to make inquiries on his own in Grantham or elsewhere will agree with me when I say that here again we seem to touch that slimy trail to which I had made reference before in the House.
Sir George Schuster: I would like to ask the House to come back to the wider issues which were raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence). I think it is rather unfortunate that we have spent so much time on this particular case, because very important issues are involved in this Debate on the Public Accounts Committee's Report. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh—the fairness of whose speech I think we all appreciated—referred to the practical difficulty of securing a proper system of controlling prices in war-time when the conditions of free competition do not exist, and when on many lines of contract it is impossible to get fixed prices
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settled in advance because neither side knows the conditions in which manufacture may have to be carried out. I am speaking in the light of experience as a member of another Committee of the House—the National Committee on War Expenditure. We are concerned—and I am sure my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) will forgive me if I say this—with what I might describe as the living body—trying to help production as it is taking place—while the Committee presided over by my right hon. and gallant Friend is concerned rather with post mortem examinations. In our view, we find that the system of post costing or other methods for controlling costs and profits represent an immense job. In many cases we believe these methods have had the effect of impeding production. At any rate a vast amount of time and man-power is absorbed by these methods, and the methods as originally applied in certain Departments are actually in danger of a breakdown because it has been impossible to keep pace with the work and find the staff to do it. The difficulties are immense, and although I am calling attention to their effects, I would like to pay a tribute to the Government Departments for the way in which they are trying to tackle their task in the best possible way. I have no criticism at all to make of them. But we must recognise the facts and ought in this House to be concerned with this extremely difficult problem.
The point I want to make is that with both these Committees of the House there might be considerable advantages if there could be some discussion on this subject between the two Committees which each in its own way is concerned with it.
I want to turn to another point. This House should be seriously concerned about the credit of the Public Accounts Committee. That Committee has immense power. I think anybody who has watched the working of the Government machine in its control of expenditure will recognise that an even more effective force than Treasury control is the influence of the Public Accounts Committee—the fear which exists in the minds of civil servants that they may be brought before that Committee if they make mistakes. I think that fear exercises a very

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considerable deterrent effect, and that it increases the reluctance of officials to take responsibility. The point I want to put is that this immense power needs to be extremely wisely exercised. In these days of war when the task of fixing prices is so difficult, when it is impossible to be sure of every detail in advance and when people sometimes must take risks if they are to "get on with the business," we should be reasonable in the use of criticism. We can be as severe as possible on anyone who has really tried "to get away with it." But I believe with my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh that they are in a very small minority, and so let us be reasonable in exercising these powers and let us do our best to evolve the best and most practical system which is possible.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: I will not detain the House for more than a few minutes, but what I have to say has been prompted by the remarks of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson). I say with respect that the bleating of a cow has more variety than the thoughts which come from the hon. Gentleman—
Mr. MacLaren: A cow does not bleat.
Mr. Baxter: The bleating of a sheep then, or, if you like, the mooing of a cow. I remember when I was a boy that my grandmother, who was of a gentle and kindly nature, believed that everything from famine and pestilence to the San Francisco earthquake came from the Pope in Rome, and she died never deviating from that position. The hon. Member has substituted Lord Beaverbrook for the Pope of Rome. He mutters his name in corners and no doubt in streets and, possibly, in his sleep while he waits the hour to come here and mutter it in this House. Indeed, I was surprised that he left it so long in his speech until he recalled again what he described as the slimy trail of Lord Beaverbrook through the present case we are discussing to-day.
What is the exact situation? Perhaps I may explain it to the hon. Gentleman if he does not know, although I think he does, that in every Ministry there is an accounting officer appointed by the Prime Minister in consultation with the head of the Civil Service, and this officer is responsible for all financial dealings. It is true that in certain cases the Minister
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can override the officer, but if he does so, the officer can make his protest. In this case we are discussing to-day no such incident arose, and, therefore, I ask by what right or inference can the hon. Gentleman bring Lord Beaverbrook's name in on that ground.
Apart from that question of Ministerial responsibility over accounts, what actually happened? In the first place, the original contracts, which have occupied a big part in the discussion, were placed by the Air Ministry. It is true that Lord Beaverbrook was in existence at that time as a human being, but the Ministry of Aircraft Production was not in existence. That is an alibi which should satisfy Mr. Tony Weller himself. Lord Beaverbrook had no responsibility at that time. Once again, his Lordship is innocent, at any rate up to this stage. In July, 1940, after the fall of France, Lord Beaverbrook appointed four British directors. I do not suppose the hon. Member objects to that. It had to be done. The men whom he appointed were men of position and integrity.
The one case to be made against the Ministry of Aircraft Production at that time is that they should have acted sooner. Probably that is true. The Public Accounts Committee says that by the end of 1941 it was apparent that the books should have been applied for and that the Ministry of Aircraft Production should have used its authority to press for the production of the private ledger. But it is quite understandable that the Ministry of Aircraft Production was more concerned not to upset the flow of production, which is admitted on all hands to have been excellent. It is quite understandable that a Service Minister would be more concerned with that than with looking into accounts, no matter how important they might be.
Mr. Hopkinson: As the hon. Member has made a kindly reference to me, perhaps he will forgive me if I interrupt him. Will he explain how the production of guns would have been prejudicially affected if the books of the company had been disclosed to the Ministry? In what way would that have prevented the guns from being made?
Mr. Baxter: That is not the point at all. I was dealing with the question of the Minister using his overriding

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authority. For reasons which I will not go into now, certain accounts had been withheld. The Minister then had supreme power over the Company. Had he utilised it—
Mr. Hopkinson: To disclose the accounts.
Mr. Baxter: Had he done so, he would have taken away from the head of the firm that concentration necessary to production. That is all. The point is quite clear.
Mr. Hopkinson: I am afraid I am very stupid, but it seems to me that the Ministry went to the firm and said, "Show us your books, your private ledger"; the firm said, "No"; and the Ministry did not take any steps for a long time to insist that they should see the books. I understand from the hon. Member, who is no doubt an industrialist of experience, that having to go to the safe and take out that ledger and give it to the Ministry's representative would have seriously prejudiced the manufacture of the guns in the works. It seems to me that that is not quite correct.
Mr. Baxter: Again the hon. Member is drawing a red herring across the slimy trail in his imagination. The point seems to me to be clear. Such papers, books or ledgers as the Ministry required quite obviously should have been forthcoming. For reasons which I need not go into now, they were being withheld. The Minister had it in his overriding power to give them a directive. He did not want to use that power if by using it he would have upset the temper and tempo of production, providing that he could get the information and the books without that action. Lord Beaverbrook resigned in April and disappeared from the scene. What I have said to-day is a protest against the constant attacks by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) upon a man who is not beyond criticism but to whom I think the country owes a great deal, and whose non-employment to-day seems to me a very serious misuse of brainpower. I feel that the hon. Member opposite, in discrediting this ex-Minister at every possible time, discredits himself and does little dignity to the House. Since he is obviously a Dickensian, because Dickens must have thought of someone
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like him once or twice, I would advise him not to leave a slimy trail too often. Dickens invented a character named Chevy Slyme, and that name might stick to the hon. Member if he is not careful.
Major Petherick: I do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) that it has been a mistake to consider the affairs of one company, because I believe that two things will arise out of the discussion. One is that a number of errors have been committed by the Ministry of Aircraft Production and the Company and, after being exposed, they may well be remedied, and it has also shown that the House of Commons is an active body, vigilant in seeing that irregularities, when committed, are disclosed. May I take up one point raised by the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. Brown) as to the difference between "its" price and "a" price? I am sure they are ultimately the same. May I offer this simple analogy? Suppose I have a horse to sell and say its price is £50, and the hon. Member for Rugby says, "I will not give it." I proceed to explain the very high cost of breeding in time of war and that the horse is very well worth £50. I then say I cannot sell until a price is fixed. He then comes up to £40, and I sell. Surely that means that ultimately "its" price and "a" price having been agreed between the parties concerned, are the same. However, that is a small point, hardly worth arguing.
The hon. Member for Rugby rather fiercely attacked my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvin-grove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and the Public Accounts Committee, and accused it of being a body which had made up its mind already and was only out to get a victim. As a Parliamentarian with a great affection and respect for this House, I strongly resent such a suggestion. The hon. Member said that my right hon. and gallant Friend came here practically as an executioner. He did not. His position was that of a judge who has to consider all the evidence and has to come to a certain conclusion on the evidence. Then he comes to the House and explains the reasons why he has reached that conclusion. My right hon. and gallant Friend was in a difficult position. He was unable to make his speech without a fire of interruptions. He is very able to look after

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himself and is calm when being shot at, and to-day he lived up to his previous record in that respect.
When I first heard about this case I read the Report and then plugged through miserably, as the hon. Member for Rugby did, the evidence which was presented. I listened to-day to the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall), who is concerned in the affair. I do not think he can claim that the House, has treated him other than very generously, because he was allowed to make his full statement without one interruption, whereas those who were criticising the conduct of himself and his Company, such as my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvin-grove, were subjected to a constant fire of interruptions which made it difficult to make out a sound case. After listening to all the speeches to-day, I am still not clear on a certain number of points. It may be that I am stupid and have not seized the points of the evidence as I should have done. There is the matter of the immense sum of £1,700,000 which has now been paid to the Ministry of Aircraft Production.
Mr. Kendall: It has never been paid back.
Major Petherick: It will presumably ultimately be paid back, because it appears to have been disclosed in the Press that it has to be paid back to the Ministry.
Mr. Kendall: No such sum as £1,700,000 has ever existed, even on paper. Therefore, it can never foe paid back.
Major Petherick: The statement has been made, as I understand it, that this figure has been paid or is credited to the Ministry of Aircraft Production.
Mr. W. Brown: Neither.
Major Petherick: It is rather difficult to get an answer across the Floor of the House in this way. Perhaps the hon. Member will tell one of his friends, who will be able to explain to the House what the position is. Whether that exact figure is going to be credited to them or not, it is the figure which has been brought forward as the amount which appears—I say appears—to have been overpaid to the Company. That surely indicates that the costing has been very very wrong and that there has been inefficiency on the part of the Company
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and also that the costing has rather deluded the Ministry of Aircraft Production, which has also made a mistake. Here we have a figure, however explained, of £1,700,000 in respect of a Company whose whole capital is some £67,000. I really think: that that ought to be explained. It is very curious that so far as the public and the House are concerned the figure only arises after the publication of the rather critical report of the Public Accounts Committee and not before. I do not wish to make much more of that point, but I should be pleased to get an exact explanation of what that figure £1,700,000 represents.
My second question is rather a delicate one, and I hope the hon. Member concerned will not think I am putting it because he happens to be a Member of this House. I should like to know how it was that this very large tax-free salary was paid to the managing director. Attention has been drawn to the fact that the figure of the tax-free income, if put as a gross figure would be £93,000. A sum of £93,000, whether it is in the form of salaries to the staff or in the form of salary to the managing director, must inevitably increase the costs to the country and must subsequently fall upon the taxpayer. Therefore I think it is a matter which should receive the attention of the House. Then there is the question of expenditure. I think we are entitled to hear a little more about the expenses incurred by various persons concerned in the firm, of which, as I understand, the accounts were not always presented. In the expenses sheet I notice one peculiar item—liquor. It is only an item, but I do mention it.
Mr. Kendall: Do I understand the hon. and gallant Member to say that I got a salary of £93,000?
Major Petherick: No. I am only saying that, as I understand, from the Report of the Public Accounts Committee and the evidence, the hon. Member I think on one occasion got £12,500 tax-free. If you reckon the gross sum, that is £93,000. Surely the Company in assessing its costs has to take that sum of £93,000 as part of its costs, and that must increase the cost of the guns for which the country has to pay.
Mr. Kendall: I never have had, nor has it ever been suggested by the Public Accounts Committee or anyone else that

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I have ever had a salary of £12,500 tax-free.
Major Petherick: Well, if that is the case, my memory is very wrong, but I know it stuck in my mind that that was the gross figure—that on one occasion a tax-free income of £12,500 was paid and that the gross figure was £93,000. If I am wrong, I shall, of course, withdraw it. Perhaps some hon. Member will confirm what I have said or reject it.
There is the question of private books, and a great deal of discussion took place on the subject of the withholding of those private books. The Ministry of Aircraft Production asked for further details, and the details in the private books were not presented. Usually the most confidential dealings are entered in books of this kind and put into a private safe, and it was very unwise of the company concerned to withhold them for so long before presenting them to the Ministry of Aircraft Production. Since that time there has been an inquiry into the whole concern. Of the sum of £67,000, a considerable proportion was held in certain hands, and I think that the House is entitled to know who are the beneficiary owners of those shares. I do not regret that this Debate has taken place, in the interests of the House and of the Ministry. I hope I have not been unfair. I have endeavoured to probe one or two matters, and I hope that the questions which I have asked will be answered during the later course of the discussion to-day.
Mr. Hutchinson: I do not propose to deal, except in so far as I must, with the mass of detailed evidence which was given before the Public Accounts Committee. On a matter of this nature this House is sitting in judgment not only upon the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) but upon the Ministry of Aircraft Production and to some extent upon the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and, indeed, upon the Public Accounts Committee itself. I will endeavour to avoid, as far as possible, acutely controversial matters, but there is one matter which seems to be non-controversial and to which insufficient attention has hitherto been given.
As I understand the White Paper which was published on Saturday last and which contains particulars of the settlement
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which has now been reached between the Ministry and the British M.A.R. Company, the effect is that, if the prices which originally formed the basis of the contracts between the Ministry and the Company had been maintained, the Company would have earned, in its two years' trading, a profit of £1,700,000; but, by reason of the fact that those prices have now been, or will be, adjusted, the profits which the Company will have earned in those two years' trading will be reduced to £90,000, before taxation. That has been justified, as I understand it, upon the ground that the prices which were at first the basis of the contracts were merely provisional and subject to ultimate adjustment. No doubt that is a perfectly proper arrangement to make, but it does not seem to me that the result which has followed from that adjustment is the sort of result which one would expect from a mere adjustment of the price which had been initially agreed between the parties. Here is a Company with a paid-up capital—not quite paid-up capital, but with capital at its disposal—amounting to £67,000. A number of contracts are placed with it by my right hon. and gallant Friend's Department, and as a result of these contracts, after two years' trading, the profit which it would have earned, if the price had not been adjusted, would have amounted to £1,700,000; whereas, when the prices are adjusted on a basis of profit amounting to 4½ per cent. in the first year and 3½ per cent. in the second year, the profits would have been £90,000.
Now, if one looks at the background of the whole of this business, as it is brought out in the volume of printed evidence, through which I, like the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. Brown), have patiently read, one finds that throughout those two years the Ministry of Aircraft Production were not satisfied with the discovery of material information which was being given to them by the Company. I will not enter into the particulars of all that. There is, of course, a controversy as to what particular documents were asked for, and as to whether it was, or was not, reasonable to withhold them, but the fact remains that the Ministry's accountants throughout this period were not satisfied with the information with which they were being furnished. And I do not think one can exclude from one's consideration this further fact. Evidence

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was given before the Public Accounts Committee by some of the officials who had taken a personal part in the negotiations as a result of which these prices were fixed—or, rather, were not fixed but were agreed upon as a provisional arrangement—and the impression that their evidence gave to the members of the Public Accounts Committee was that this company would withhold deliveries unless the prices for which they were asking were accepted. When one looks at the outcome of all this business, and one finds a potential profit written down from £1,700,000 to about £90,000, and one finds in conjunction with that all those circumstances to which I have just referred, surely it was right that my right hon. and gallant Friend's Committee should look with the greatest possible suspicion into this matter.
We are told that he has not acted in a judicial capacity. After all to-day the Committee is not the judge; this House is the judge and my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvin-grove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) comes before it as an advocate. When we are told that he has not acted judicially, that too much has been made of this, and too much has been made of that, when one looks at those matters to which I have ventured to draw the attention of the House, and which are matters which are wholly beyond controversy, can it be fairly said that we do not owe a very great debt of gratitude indeed to my right hon. and gallant Friend and his Committee?
Sir Henry Fildes: Could my hon. and learned Friend tell the House how much of this £1,700,000 would automatically have gone back to the Treasury in any case?
Mr. Hutchinson: I am certainly not in a position to answer that question. This House knows very little about the composition of that £1,700,000. We are told that that was the profit the company would have earned if these prices had not been adjusted, but, apart from that, we know nothing about it. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister for Aircraft Production has described this as a good settlement. No doubt, from the point of view of his Department, and indeed of the public, who are not going to hand over to this company a profit of that magnitude, it is a very good settlement
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indeed. But this House wants to be satisfied about something more. We have to be satisfied that the methods by which these contracts were negotiated were satisfactory from the public point of view. That is one of the most important issues in the whole of this business. We have to be sure that this costings method has not resulted in some other contractor getting away with a profit of £1,700,000, with a company having a paid-up capital of £67,000. I leave some of my hon. Friends on the other side of the House below the Gangway to calculate what sort of return that shows on their paid-up capital. The investigation which this case has received will assist us to be satisfied, as it is the duty of this House to be satisfied, that the methods by which such a result might follow are not being employed in the case of other contractors.
Mr. Price: As a member of the Select Committee on National Expenditure, I am naturally very interested in this Debate. I think the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and his Committee have done invaluable work in bringing before this House a matter which ultimately affects the public morale and the carrying on of the war. This House in having this Debate is carrying out one of its ancient duties as guardian of the public purse. As I say, this matter has a particular effect in war-time on public morale. I think nothing would have a worse effect in our coalmines, munition works, and other industries having anything to do with the war effort, than the suspicion that undue profits are being made. It may be that much exaggerated ideas go about, and that profits are, in fact, not as great as appears at first sight, but the public are very suspicious after what happened in the last war, when large fortunes were made, and this House cannot be too careful in scrutinising every case where it appears that something which is not quite right has taken place.
It has been argued, and there is something to be said for it, that the Excess Profits Tax, and taxation generally, may very much lower the actual profits that are made. As the hon. and learned Member for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson) has just shown very large gross profits do seem to have been made on this transaction, temporarily at least, until the price was

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actually fixed by the Ministry. Although the greater part of it, as the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) has shown, has gone in Excess Profits Tax and 10s. in the pound Income Tax, that does not justify in the least degree any sloppiness or inefficiency in accounting or any dilatoriness in fixing prices. The public mind will get hold of these items. The public will not immediately understand that a great part of it may go in Income Tax and Excess Profits Tax and it may affect public morale. Moreover, any long delay in fixing prices in these contracts tends to inefficiency in the Departments concerned.
I remember that on the Select Committee on National Expenditure we have gone into the whole question of contracts and one of the earlier reports made by that Committee last Session, before I was a member of it, condemned root and branch the whole system known as cost-plus and advocated a more accurate system of costing. As I have occasion to know, from looking into this matter on sub-committees of which I am a member, it is very difficult sometimes to make fixed contracts. I know of one case where certain underground quarries were concerned. It was not possible to tell the kind of work that would have to be done, so that one was between the devil and the deep sea. The question was: should cost-plus be allowed, or should it be a fixed price? The target system whereby you make a fixed price temporarily, subject to readjustment after every few weeks or days, to see whether there has been a change in the cost or the rate at which the thing can be done, seems to be the method. If there is anything to be learned from this Debate it is that the Government Departments concerned should look into this matter and try to work out for the contracts they have to place, methods which could speedily be applied and guard the public interest, maintain public morale and prevent anything like what we are debating to-day from happening again. The right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove and the Public Accounts Committee have done a great public service, for which the House ought to be deeply thankful.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): I rise to make some observations and answer some questions on
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the general issues which have arisen in connection with this discussion. The House of Commons to-day has fulfilled its proper function and duty, and this has been a useful and a timely Debate. I would like to express my indebtedness—without in any way commenting on the verdict of the Public Accounts Committee—to the Committee for the work which they have done and the promptitude with which they have performed that work. The Committee represents this House of Commons, and so far as I have understood their conclusions they have pointed out what they regard as the merits of the matter as regards the particular contractors and the Department itself, and I think it would be a very bad day indeed for the House if at any time we did anything, at any rate without any considerable cause, which would affect the influence of this important Committee. Reference has been made, with a great measure of justice, to the importance of the fact that the House of Commons should consider this question, having regard to public opinion. In these days of high taxation, hardships and sacrifices it is vital—and the country is entitled to no less—that we should see that the vast sums we are spending on stores and on services rendered to the nation should be spent with circumspection and care, that there should be no question that prices should be fair and reasonable, that unfair and undue rates of profit should not be taken, and that economy in the placing of Government contracts should be regarded as essential to the war effort. That is the very least the country expects from us at the present time.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Law-rence) asked me whether I could say whether the facts which have been disclosed in the cases we have been considering to-day are in any way typical of contracts generally. I must say that I think it would be quite wrong to assume that the circumstances disclosed in certain of the cases reviewed by the Public Accounts Committee in their Report are in any way' typical of the whole. In money value they are, of course, but a tiny fraction of the total contracts turnover. It is very interesting to observe that the three Departments concerned in the year ended 31st March, 1941, expended, in respect of contracts for weapons, munitions and equipment, about

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£900,000,000. In the following year it was a much larger sum. I think it can be said that in the great majority of cases we can be confident that on the whole prices and profits have been reasonable, that contractors have performed their work very well, with a full sense of their public responsibility, and have co-operated fully with the Departments on production and contract negotiations. I am sure my hon. Friends will agree with me also when I say that it would indeed be a great pity and a great mistake if, as a result of this Report and the Debate in the House, any contrary impression should go forth to the country. I observe that this is confirmed by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who is the servant of this House, who stated before the Public Accounts Committee that, as regards the cases to which he had called attention, he did not intend to imply in any way that the matters which needed attention, as far as he was concerned, were widespread or universal.
My right hon. Friend asked me how I, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, regarded a matter which has been discussed by a number of hon. Members, namely the Excess Profits Tax and the steps and methods taken to deal with profits in regard to particular contracts. I think there is in fact very little I can add to the Report which was issued by the Public Accounts Committee, and I would particularly refer hon. Members to the important memorandum supplied by the Treasury which appears at the end of the Report. I would like to quote to the House—because the matter is an important one—the following extract which I think sums up the position pretty well:
"Contracting Departments aim at securing fair and reasonable terms for stores supplied to or services performed for the State, paying no regard to questions of taxation. This policy has been laid down by the Treasury and is well established. The State in this respect acts as any other prudent and reasonable purchaser would act.
Whatever we may say about the amount and height of the Excess Profits Tax, that tax is designed not merely for the purposes of raising revenue but for the control of profits; but I would emphasise to the House, that it is not an instrument which is designed in itself to provide a general standard of fair and reasonable profit on Government contracts. It is intended as a reserve measure to deal with increased profits as compared with the
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pre-war standard over the whole field of industry. I at once admit—and a good many hon. Members in all parts of the House have constantly said it—that the Excess Profits Tax itself is no protection against uneconomic or wasteful methods of production. Nor does it ensure efficiency or prevent the waste of man-power and materials, and I would stress—and I hope hon. Members will emphasise this particularly when they are speaking to the workpeople, as it is a matter that is very important and on which I am afraid a full understanding is not always obtained—that nothing is further from the fact than the statement which is sometimes made that prices do not matter because every tiling goes in Excess Profits Tax. That is quite contrary to the facts.
My right hon. Friend also asked me what is the attitude of the Treasury and myself to the question of the compulsory power of Departments to obtain information concerning matters which may from time to time arise in connection with the very many contracts which are now the subject of consideration between contractors and various Departments and whether I supported the view that the compulsory powers should, if necessary, be invoked. It has only been since the passing of the Ministry of Supply Act that the Minister has had power to cost any contract and to compel contractors to produce their books and records. He has this further power given to him that, if he is satisfied that the records are insufficient to enable a fair and reasonable price to be determined, he can direct the firm to keep such records as may be specified in the direction. I certainly agree with the principle that, where Departments are not furnished with sufficient information, they must not hesitate to use their compulsory powers and they should direct the firm to keep sufficient records. That does not mean of necessity that, in days of great scarcity of cost accountants, everyone should be compelled to set up a full-blooded costing system, but those are the lines which I think should be generally followed. It is not for the contractors to say what are the material books that are to be produced. That is for the Minister himself to determine, on the advice that may be given him. No firm is entitled to say that the books asked for are not material, nor are they entitled to say that the books already produced have given sufficient information and they will give no more. The power is

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complete in the Minister to say what books shall be produced and to direct that they shall be produced in accordance with the Act of Parliament.
My right hon. Friend also asked me whether, in negotiating prices and settling contracts, the Departments, actuated perhaps by the fear of the breakdown of financial negotiations through pressing for certain particulars, should stay their hand. A Department ought not to go beyond what, on full consideration, they consider to be a fair and reasonable price solely because they fear a breakdown in financial negotiations. There is, however, a natural hesitancy to break off negotiations, when a Department is terribly anxious and keen to get on with the work of production and to remain on good terms with the contractors, and this makes them strive to persevere with the negotiations in the hope that even at the last moment agreement may be reached. There may be cases, especially where a new store is being manufactured, where there will be a genuine element of doubt as to what constitutes a fair and reasonable price. Then the Department might be justified in going somewhat beyond its original ideas in the course of negotiating a contract settlement. It is right and justifiable to keep matters on a negotiating basis and within reasonable limits to make proper concessions, for good will in all these matters is all to the good. The good will argument cannot however be invoked to justify the payment of high and unreasonable prices.
Questions have been asked with regard to the policy generally in the directions which the Treasury have given as to the type of contract which we have been discussing. The report of the Public Accounts Committee relates to one type of contract only, namely, the non-competitive fixed-price contract. There is considerable advantage in this form of contract, provided that adequate steps are taken to control and check it. In 1941 the Public Accounts Committee agreed that where information is available as regards costs, fixed prices are likely to be fair both to the public and the contractor, and they recommended that steps should be taken to cost a selection of fixed-price contracts in order to secure that prices continued to be fixed in relation to cur
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rent costs. The Treasury agree with all the authorities that have examined this matter that a fixed-price contract, provided that it has a solid foundation, is the best form of contract and is most likely to secure the required stores at the cheapest price. That is the first object of the Government as of any other prudent purchaser.
Ordinarily, as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh indicated, the best solid foundation would be provided, if it were possible, by free and effective competition. As he has pointed out, however, the area of effective competition is progressively lessened in war, particularly as production expands. The value of the fixed-price contract would be seriously impaired unless some other means could be found of ensuring that the fixed price is fair and reasonable. Special risks are involved in the fixed-price contract in war-time conditions, when many new stores are being manufactured, many manufacturers are turned on to things they have never made before, and the output in many cases increases steeply for some time. It is fair that these matters should be taken into account. We have to remember that for all these reasons manufacturing costs are likely to be high in the initial stage and to fall steeply as knowledge increases, manufacturing methods improve and turnover grows, and if fixed prices are to be fair and reasonable, the knowledge of costs must not only be accurate but, what I would emphasised particularly to the House, must be up-to-date.
There are, of course, several methods of obtaining this knowledge. There is the method of pre-costing investigation, involving an investigation of the cost of the productive processes by technical officers and an estimation of the overhead expenditure by accountants, and there may be considerable value in this. But, after all, it is estimating costs before the event, and in certain cases may very well be subject to large margins of error. There is also the post-costing investigation, which, as many of my hon. Friends appreciate, consists of an examination after the event of the true costs in respect of a particular contract. It is, of course, the method used to ascertain what falls to be paid in a costed contract. Where a store is manufactured by a number of firms or in a number of Government factories, comparison of the costs in the

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different manufacturing units may prove to be sufficient information for the purpose. It also may be possible to get enough knowledge by investigation of the total results of a firm's trading over a period. All these processes are available, but I would draw attention to the recommendation which the Public Accounts Committee made last year, to this effect, that a selection of fixed-price contracts should be post-costed in order to ensure that prices continue to be fixed in relation to current costs. Of course, if the first object is to limit profits, the most certain means of achieving it is the costed contract; but if the primary object is to get what you want as cheaply as possible, the best instrument, in the judgment of all, I think, who have considered this matter, is the fixed-price contract, provided it can be fairly based on a reasonably accurate knowledge of current costs. It has been said frequently during the Debate, and we all know it, that cost accountants are to-day at a premium. The Departments, the contracting firms and the accounting profession are extremely short of qualified men.
All I would say, in conclusion, is that for all these reasons it may be desirable to move away from the costed contract to the fixed-price contract, and the information necessary for the purpose of settling the fixed-price contract should be obtained wherever possible, having regard to the difficulties of to-day, which are likely to increase, without recourse to costing. Where adequate information cannot be obtained without recourse to costing, it is probably better not to cost previous contracts right through but to cost a batch of current production. I offer those observations to the House because this is a very important matter, not only from the general national point of view but from the financial point of view.
I think those are all the observations I desire to put. My purpose has been only to speak on the general matters which arise from this important Debate, which I have no doubt will be studied in the country, not only by contractors, but by a very large number of people who are very interested in the subject. They will recognise that the House of Commons has performed a service by devoting one of its Sittings to what I regard as a highly important matter, not only in relation to the war effort, but to our national affairs generally.
Mr. Stokes: I hoped to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, to speak for a few moments before the Chancellor. I do not propose now to detain the House long, but to make three observations to the Chancellor and one on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall). First, to the Chancellor. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Major Petherick) spoke of the desirability of knowing the nominee shareholders of this company. I commend that remark to the attention of the Chancellor, and I would ask him to pay attention particularly to what has been said in this matter many times before when we have asked him to introduce legislation abolishing once and for all the practice common in the City, which enables large holdings in public companies to be in the names of banks and other nominees. It is a thoroughly unsatisfactory practice and one which we would like to see done away with.
Secondly, the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson)—I am sorry he is not here, but I do not think he will disagree with what I am going to say—referred to the very low rate of on-cost charges, 68 per cent., prevalent in his firm, and stated that the firm of my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham had charges which were several hundreds per cent. We all know that dealing in percentages is very tricky. I myself have knowledge of, and have had to deal with, firms whose charges were lower than 68 per cent. and also with others whose charges were higher than 200 per cent. Without examination of the details, it is impossible for any man to say which set of charges is right. In justice to my hon. Friend, who has had a pretty rough time—he has been pilloried in the Press very badly—I would not like to sit here while those things are said and let the House think that because the hon. Member for Mossley's firm has 68 per cent. charges it necessarily follows that my hon. Friend's charges, which are considerably higher, are too high for the work which he is doing. It entirely depends upon the type of business.
My next observation to the Chancellor is to call attention to the very great difficulty in which some small firms, or even moderate-sized firms, are finding themselves, with regard to their capital set-up. My hon. Friend's firm has a capital of about £67,000, which is ridiculous for the

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work that the firm is carrying out. I understand they have spent over £200,000 or £300,000 on plant and machinery. I do not know the details of this firm, but I know the details of others, and I know also that smaller firms are getting into a very embarrassed position owing to the fact that they have to keep their places in a decent state of repair—all of which charge is not necessarily allowed to be deducted as a revenue charge before the calculation of excess profits—to keep up-to-date and to get such machinery as they can to deal with bigger output. Also we have to pay perfectly enormous Excess Profits Tax. It is quite right, and I am not protesting. I suggest that the Chancellor should tell his Treasury officials to be a little patient about the actual collecting of the cash. I believe in the 100 per cent. Excess Profits Tax, but I also know the difficulties at the working end of it, and we cannot be expected to finance ever increasing work in progress, keep ourselves in a fit and proper state of repair and efficiency and pay all taxes promptly.
My last observation to the Chancellor relates to his own complaint of the shortage of cost accountants in the country. Many years ago—and I am not sure whether it was in my maiden speech, but it was certainly very shortly afterwards—I urged on the then Chancellor, now Lord Chancellor, that firms should be required to render a statement of the cost of their contracts and the amount of profit earned on them, and should then pay back to the Treasury whatever they earned in profit over an agreed amount.
By agreement with one or other of the Departments, firms with which I am connected have done this for a long time, and it has worked admirably. I know it is not popular in the industry, because it is the most difficult way of swindling the Government. If I, as managing director, have to sign a document stating what the profit or loss is on a particular contract, I am going to see it is right, because I am always subject to a Government investigation. The Government can even ask that the document should be signed by the firm's auditors if they have any doubt, and in addition they may come down and inspect for themselves. When settling annual profits for the year the firm's own auditors deal with the Inland Revenue authorities, and settle what is to be the
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profit for the year and my right hon. Friend knows there is very little fuss and bother. I understand that some Departments are behind in settling costs in tens of thousands of contracts. In consequence, firms are not paid for the work they have done, because 10 per cent. is held back until costs have been settled. I ask the Chancellor to look into this again and see whether he cannot extend this system of signed statements, which I believe would be welcomed by honest manufacturers, with great saving of time and money, and would lead to a great improvement in efficiency all round.

ARMED FORCES (DAMAGE TO REQUISITIONED HOUSES)
Mr. John Dugdale: I am afraid I must ask hon. Members to turn to an entirely different subject, but one in which they are personally interested and of which they have had experience. I refer to the destruction of houses in this country not by the enemy but by our own troops—by the troops in the Army and the Air Force. Up and down this country are houses requisitioned by the Army. Many of them are of great beauty. Nearly all of them are in process of destruction. I wish to take three examples and then to suggest one or two remedies. I take three examples, not because they are particularly bad, but because I happen to have seen them myself and know the state these houses are in now. The first is an ordinary modern house of no particular merit but a house which is very well constructed. In this house the window sills have been used as firewood, panelling has been split, the radiator grilles have been thrown into the fireplace and burned, the porch roof has fallen in and the lead has been torn off—not used for salvage but thrown away. Everywhere the plaster is off, and to complete this picture, in the garden the officer concerned considered that the most suitable place in which to build certain necessary offices was in a shrubbery. He cut down all the flowering shrubs so that this useful and important adjunct to any establishment for troops should be suitably housed. I submit this is not a satisfactory state of affairs.
I will give another case of perhaps greater interest. This is the case of a house, a 15th century house, a very

1321
beautiful house. It has been taken over by troops. In this house 15th century panelling has been torn out deliberately—
It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
Mr. Dugdale: This panelling has, I say, been torn out deliberately, thrown on the fireplace, and burned. I visited the place recently, and found that, although it is under the care of the War Office, children are running about in it, and smashing what they like. My last example has more interest, because it has some historical significance. Whatever we may think of him, Warren Hastings has some importance in British history. I have been to. his home, and have seen the damage caused by the troops. They have taken the protection off the mantelpiece, thrown that away, and then thrown the mantelpiece away. Finally, they took the stone portico base, and used it as a chopping block. I could give the names of these places, but I do not propose to do so, as I do not think that these examples are worse than many others I could give. However, I will give the names to the Minister who is going to reply, if he wishes. These actions show a total lack of appreciation of any form of beauty, a total lack of manners, and also, what is more important from a military point of view, a grave lack of discipline. It is not only the men who are to blame; it is far more the officers. Many of the men have never seen such houses before, and do not know the value of the things they are destroying, but the officers do, or, at any rate, should, know. They take no action.
It is said by some people in defence of this state of affairs that it is necessary in war-time. Almost everything has been defended on those grounds. One officer, I am informed, said that it toughened his men. They were toughened to fight the Germans by tearing up bits of houses, which, I take it, were not well defended, and in which there were certainly no machine-gun nests. I know that the Minister who is to reply has this matter at heart, and that the War Office have taken
1322
certain steps to deal with it but they have not so far been successful, and they must take other steps. I, personally, have had experience, as no doubt every other Member who has been in the Army has, of those inspections which take place of military equipment and stores. The meticulous care which is taken shows the importance that the Army attaches to military equipment. If the officer going round finds a man without a button, with his battledress torn or with his boots worn out, something is at once done about it. The man is told that it is a disgraceful thing, and he is called up perhaps before his commanding officer, and reprimanded or punished. But what is done in the case of equipment and uniform is seldom done in respect of houses and furniture, which, I submit, should be treated with as much respect as is given to uniform, and even to a rifle. I hope that in future the War Office will see that suitable disciplinary action is taken.
It is sometimes said that this does not matter much because adequate compensation is paid. Can you compensate people for the loss of things which are completely irreplaceable? Suppose compensation is paid, who pays it? The Chancellor of the Exchequer pays it. It may be said that it ought to come out of the regimental fund. It does not come out of the regimental fund but out of the pockets of the taxpayers. I will give one example of compensation. A certain regiment occupied a house in Wiltshire for three months. At the end of that period there was an inquiry as to the damage, and the War Office and the Treasury agreed upon damages of £1,600. The claim was for £1,700, but I have no doubt that the owner was satisfied when he received £1,600. But that money has come out of the pocket of the taxpayer. I see no reason why it should come out of his pocket and why action should not have been taken to prevent this damage from having been done.
I ask the War Office to give this matter more careful consideration. They should decide to inform all commanding officers and commanders of units, first, that they insist on a very much better inspection of all these premises, and secondly, that disciplinary action be taken which will make these offences of a far higher category under War Office regulations than apparently they are at present. I ask

1323
this for the sake of the houses themselves and also for the sake of the honour of our Army.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: May I add a few words to those which the hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) has used? I am very glad in deed that he has raised this issue. In my own part of the country I have had similar experiences to those which he has described to the House. He is correct in what he said about the officers. That is quite easily proved because when you see unit after unit moving through the same billets, as I have seen them, you find that after occupation by a good unit which is well officered and with the quarters being inspected properly, those quarters carry comparatively little damage as against the damage done in a shorter period of occupation by some unit not under the same degree of discipline. I believe that an old custom should be revived. It was in force during some period at least of the last war. Where damage beyond a reasonable extent was proved to have been caused by the mis-use of billets and equipment by troops, the officers themselves were made responsible for the payment of part of the damage. It may have been a local order but I think I am correct in saying that something of that nature was in force. Nothing could be worse as regards encouraging war savings movements throughout the countryside than for many of the poor lenders to see their money being wasted by the mis-use of what is, at the moment, Government property. For that reason, added to by the imposing arguments of my hon. Friend, and for the other reason that it is a sample of lack of discipline, I believe that this matter is of very great urgency and importance, and I trust that my hon. and gallant Friend when he replies will give the House some assurance that the strongest possible step will be taken to put a stop to this extravagance and waste.
Mr. Lipson: I do not dispute the facts which have been stated by my hon. Friends, but I would like to remove, as a result of my own experience, an impression that damage necessarily always happens whenever houses are occupied by soldiers. I had in my own house 150 soldiers for some weeks, and I want to bear testimony to the fact that during that time no damage whatever was
1324
done to the property. Although I was living in the house at the time I had no reason to complain either of their behaviour so far as the property which they occupied was concerned—and it was entirely under their control—or their conduct in the house generally. I think it is right that that should be stated because, quite unconsciously, an impression might have been given that the sort of thing to which attention has quite properly been drawn to-day, will always necessarily happen whenever troops occupy a house. I do not think it would be fair to suggest that it was because I happened to be living in the house at the time, the troops treated the place as I have stated, I believe that in certain regiments the practice is to inspect carefully the property which is occupied by troops. Possibly Members are amused by the fact that I was able to house 150 troops in my house but I was a house-master at a college for many years and that was how I came to have so large a house. I was able to compare the behaviour of the men with that of the public school boys who used to be under my care and I want to say that these men in every way compared favourably in their conduct, as members of the Army, with the public school boys who were members of my house. I think it only fair to soldiers of the British Army that the impression should not be created that the sort of conduct, to which attention has been quite properly drawn today, is necessarily general.
Mr. Hannah: I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) has done a great service in drawing our attention to this matter to-day. We all know that examples of the same kind of thing can be given from other parts of the country. We are, in all conscience, losing enough of the heritage of our fathers to-day through blitzing and the other terrible events that are happening. The whole of Europe is far poorer in ancient monuments to-day than it was at the beginning of the war. On one occasion when a very pretty young girl asked Dr. Johnson the reason why he put something or other in his dictionary that was quite inaccurate he made the answer, "Pure ignorance, my dear." I cannot help thinking the same thing was very largely true of these soldiers, and I suggest that before going into any house, especially one with historical and archaeological associations, a soldier should be

1325
told just why it is valuable and why it carries on into this generation the ideals of days gone by. From what I heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) I think he would be a very good lecturer for such a purpose. I believe these men ought to be appealed to earnestly to do everything in their power to preserve the priceless heritage of days gone by. The whole country is deeply indebted to my neighbour and Friend the hon. Member for West Bromwich for bringing this matter before the House to-day.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Arthur Henderson): My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) will not expect me to deal with the particular cases to which he has referred in his speech, but I hope he will let me have the necessary information later, because the War Office would be only too happy to investigate it. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lip-son) put the other side of the picture, and I think the House will accept it that, having regard to the vast numbers of men who are billeted throughout the country and the very large number of houses in which they are billeted, the number of cases in which there are complaints, serious though it may be, constitutes a very small proportion of the total number. I am not seeking to minimise in any way the fact that we have received numbers of complaints from various parts of the country, and I think it would be wrong of me to seek to suggest to the House that the complaints were exaggerated out of all proportion.
After the days of Dunkirk, when billets had to be found for large numbers of men, the organisation which then existed was such that inevitably incidents occurred with which it was not possible to deal at the moment. Consequently, instructions were issued with a view to seeking a radical improvement in the position. I think the House would be interested to know the machinery that has been established with a view to checking this evil. I should say that there is a difference, although not perhaps from the point of view of the owner of the premises, between cases of wanton damage and cases of what might be called unsatisfactory occupation; but with a view to bringing to notice cases of wanton damage, the following measures have been put into
1326
operation: First, a monthly regimental inspection has to take place for which the commanding officer of the unit is responsible. Secondly, there has to be a periodical inspection by R.E. representatives of all accommodation which is occupied by static units. Thirdly, a marching-out and a marching-in inspection has to take place whenever a unit changes station. I want to be quite frank with the House; I admit that in some cases, especially when units are ordered overseas at short notice, the marching-out inspection does not take place.
Mr. Leslie Boyce: Is an inventory of the damage made when the inspection takes place?
Mr. Henderson: Yes, an inventory is made, or should be made. I am stating to the House the steps taken to try to check the evil. I do not say that in too per cent. of cases the regulations are carried out, but they are in the vast majority of cases. The War Office have also started a system of "flying inspections." These were instituted under specially appointed assistant quartering commandants and certain officers of the Claims Commission with the object of supplementing and checking the more routine inspections to which I have referred. As regards the disciplinary aspect, Army Council Instructions have been issued warning troops of the complaints that have been received regarding damage and the penalties to which they become liable, and it may interest the House if I quote two of these Army Council Instructions on this matter. On 2nd July, 1941, an Army Council Instruction was issued which stated that
"Avoidable damage done to requisitioned buildings and billets through wantonness and negligence on the part of individuals and units not only wastes valuable material but causes considerable irritation to the owners. It is essential that in all cases where avoidable damage occurs it is brought home to the individuals or units responsible. Responsibility can be fixed only if the instructions regarding the handing and taking over of buildings, fixtures and chattels are properly carried out. Frequent inspection by regimental officers of the buildings in which their men are quartered in order that damage may be noted are essential. The cumulative effect of disregard of orders is assuming proportions which the Army Council view with great concern. The attitude of mind shown by too many officers and other ranks towards their responsibility for Government stores and requisitioned property with which they are entrusted suggests that there are some who are incapable of properly assuming this trust. It cannot be too strongly

1327
stressed that the Battle of the Atlantic is being fought in vain if the determination and resource of the Royal Navy and the Merchant Navy on the high seas is not applied in kitchens, stores and buildings and on the roads of this country."
Another Army Council Instruction is about to be promulgated, from which I will give this extract:
"Frequent needless damage to billets and requisitioned property and the removal and looting of private property from houses and bungalows taken over for defence purposes constitute a deplorable breach of the trust that has been imposed on the troops and causes indignation and a sense of distrust in the mind of the public. All ranks will understand that houses and bungalows, whether taken over as billets or requisitioned or entered on duty or otherwise, are private property, and they and their contents will be respected as such, and troops taking over, entering or guarding such property will be regarded as having a special responsibility for the safety and care of the buildings and their movable contents. Removal of any contents without authority will be regarded as a serious offence."
Mr. Bellenger: Recently the Army Council agreed that some Army Council Instructions should be posted in canteens. Is this one of them?
Mr. Henderson: That procedure will be' followed.
Mr. Boyce: In the billets as well?
Mr. Henderson: Yes. As regards disciplinary action, it is possible, under Section 137 of the Army Act in the case of officers, and 138 in the case of other ranks, that where damage has been occasioned by proved negligence, whether of the officer or other ranks, it is possible to compel some degree of contribution towards the cost of compensation either from the officer or collectively from the unit, and in some cases that has been done. The cumulative effect of the measures to which I have referred, in spite of the fact that it is still possible to bring forward cases where damage has been occasioned, has been reflected, according to information at the War Office, in a marked decrease of cases of wanton damage to private property, as evidenced by the report of the "flying inspections." I do not suggest that in the tens of thousands of billets under the control of the War Department "flying
1328
inspections" have taken place in each case, but they are to be regarded as being in the nature of test audits.
Mr. Dugdale: Have any officers been reprimanded as a result of what has been found at these inspections?
Mr. Henderson: I prefer to have notice of that question, but I think I am safe in saying that in those cases where negligence has been proved to be the personal responsibility of a particular commanding officer or other officer, the appropriate disciplinary action has been taken. I do not for one moment deny the existence of this problem, but I hope that what I have said indicates that the War Office have been fully alive to what has been alleged to have taken place in various parts of the country and that they have made strenuous and largely effective efforts to bring this problem within a reasonable degree of control. As regards the future we hope that the second Army Council Instruction which I have quoted, and which will be issued in the next few days, will have the effect of calling the attention of officers and other ranks to their responsibilities in relation to requisitioned property and that it will have the desired effect.
Mr. Boyce: Does not my hon. and learned Friend think that the cost of the damage which is done should be a first charge on the regimental funds of the unit responsible before it falls on the taxpayer, which means that the outraged householder has to pay for the damage done to his own house and the regiment gets off soot free?
Mr. Henderson: My hon. Friend will agree that we can only deal with a question of that nature under the law as it exists. Under the law his proposal would not be possible.
Mr. Boyce: Will my hon. and learned Friend bear in mind the suggestion which seems to be an equitable one?
Mr. Henderson: The Government are always prepared to consider any suggestion if it is a good one.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

FOOD SUPPLIES
  Prosecutions, Sudbury
  Prosecutions, Sudbury
  Ice-Cream
  Ice-Cream
  Milk (Pithead Canteens)
  Milk (Pithead Canteens)
  Recipes (Publication)
  Recipes (Publication)
  National Vegetable Marketing Board
  National Vegetable Marketing Board
ROYAL NAVY
  Mr. Constantinesco (Watercraft Invention)
  Mr. Constantinesco (Watercraft Invention)
  Clyde Shipyard Workers (Housing and Transport)
  Clyde Shipyard Workers (Housing and Transport)
  Shipping Loss, Atlantic (Escort)
  Shipping Loss, Atlantic (Escort)
  LOCAL AUTHORITY HOSPITALS (SURVEY)
  LOCAL AUTHORITY HOSPITALS (SURVEY)
  POST-WAR PLANNING (DEMOBILISATION)
  POST-WAR PLANNING (DEMOBILISATION)
  AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT (COURT OF INQUIRY, FINDINGS)
  AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT (COURT OF INQUIRY, FINDINGS)
  SOCIAL INSURANCE (BEVERIDGE COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
  SOCIAL INSURANCE (BEVERIDGE COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
FUEL AND POWER
  Coat Dump, Solihull
  Coat Dump, Solihull
  Miners (Release From Army)
  Miners (Release From Army)
  Low-Grade Domestic Fuel (Charges)
  Low-Grade Domestic Fuel (Charges)
  Aero-Engine Tests (Waste Power)
  Aero-Engine Tests (Waste Power)
  Schools (Heating and Lighting)
  Schools (Heating and Lighting)
  WELSH RECONSTRUCTION PROBLEMS (ADVISORY COUNCIL)
  WELSH RECONSTRUCTION PROBLEMS (ADVISORY COUNCIL)
MINISTRY OF INFORMATION
  United States News Despatches
  United States News Despatches
  R.A.F. Personnel (Letters, Censorship)
  R.A.F. Personnel (Letters, Censorship)
WEST INDIES
  Unemployment
  Unemployment
  Food Supplies
  Food Supplies
  Development and Welfare Schemes (Grants)
  Development and Welfare Schemes (Grants)
  STALINGRAD'S DEFENDERS
  STALINGRAD'S DEFENDERS
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (CORRESPONDENCE)
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (CORRESPONDENCE)
  BANK FOR INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS
  BANK FOR INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS
CIVIL DEFENCE
  National Fire Service
  National Fire Service
  Evacuated Workers, Glasgow (Travel Vouchers)
  Evacuated Workers, Glasgow (Travel Vouchers)
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION
  SCHOOLS (HOLIDAY OPENING)
  SCHOOLS (HOLIDAY OPENING)
  DOCK THEFTS, LIVERPOOL
  DOCK THEFTS, LIVERPOOL
  ROAD HAULAGE SCHEME
  ROAD HAULAGE SCHEME
  BRITISH SUBJECTS, UNITED STATES (VOLUNTEERS)
  BRITISH SUBJECTS, UNITED STATES (VOLUNTEERS)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Dermatitis
  Dermatitis
  Diphtheria (Deaths, London)
  Diphtheria (Deaths, London)
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

JUDICIAL VACANCY: MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have to convey to the House a Message from the King, signed with his own hand:
"I have received your Address praying that, in pursuance of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Amendment) Act, 1937, a Judge may be appointed to the High Court of Justice to fill a vacancy in the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division thereof, and I will issue directions in accordance with your desire."

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section I of the Act to the—
Urban District of Chislehurst and Sid-cup;
Rural District of Dunmow;
Seaton Delaval North, Seaton Delaval South, Seghill, Backworth, and Shiremoor Wards of Urban District of Seaton Valley:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), for affirmative Resolution, and ordered to lie on the Table.

PUNISHMENT OF WAR CRIMINALS.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM VISCOUNT MAUGHAM had given Notice that he would call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the problem of the punishment of war criminals after the conclusion of a permanent Armistice or a Treaty of Peace; and also move for Papers. The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, there is no doubt that this country is pledged, and so also are the United States of America, to the principle that retribution for war crimes is among the major purposes of this war. The Prime Minister and the President have made repeated declarations to that effect,
556
one or two of them since this Motion was put down on the Order Paper. It is important to remember that on January 13 last a Declaration was signed by the representatives of nine countries, at a meeting presided over by Mr. Eden at St. James's Palace, at which it was amongst other things affirmed that these nine countries placed among their principal war aims the punishment, through the channel of organized justice—I call your Lordships' attention to that—of those guilty or responsible for these crimes, whether they ordered them, perpetrated them or participated in them. There is no need for me, therefore, to argue the necessity for the steps which are there mentioned.
Some people may question the propriety of tackling the question now on the ground that we have not yet won the war, but there is no harm in letting the Germans know that in this House—not at all a bad mirror of the soul of Britain, and one in which there are no Quislings, and pacifists may be numbered on the fingers of one hand—we are resolved, however long and arduous may be the road before us, and whatever price we may have to pay, to go on until, with the assistance of our great Allies, we have brought the Germans to their knees and put the final end to the pestilence which the Nazi tyranny has brought over Europe. On the other hand, the reflection which we may easily give to this matter to-day will lead your Lordships' House to the conclusion that if the plague is to be stamped out, most of the war crimes must be punished as far as is humanly possible, and in my view we have got to begin before the end of the war, for I cannot too strongly state that delay will mean the escape of the guilty.
A good deal may be learnt from what happened after the last war in reference to the punishment of war crimes. As the materials are very difficult to get at, and as your Lordships would probably be unable to find them, I propose to take up a little of your time in telling you what did happen. At a preliminary Peace Conference a Commission of fifteen eminent jurists was appointed representing ten Powers charged to inquire into five matters mainly relating to German war crimes. They reported on the 29th March, 1919, but, unhappily, the American representatives did not agree with the majority

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of the fifteen and presented an elaborate memorandum of their reservations. It was plainly due to this fact that the authors of the Peace Treaty, which was signed at Versailles on 28th June, 1919, included Articles 228, 229 and 230 in the Peace Treaty, which provided for the trial before Military Tribunals of persons accused of acts in violation of the laws and customs of war, who were to be sentenced to punishments laid down by law—not saying what law—and of persons guilty of criminal acts against the nationals of one of the Allied and Associated Powers. If these acts were committed against the nationals of more than one Power the trials were to be before Military Tribunals composed of members of the Military Tribunals of the several Powers concerned. That was Article 229. Article 230 provided for what lawyers call discovery and the furnishing of materials necessary for the trial.
Now the Allied Powers were very anxious to punish the Kaiser, who had the distinction, if it be a distinction, of a separate Article in the Treaty all to himself, Article 227, under which
"the Allied and Associated Powers publicly arraign William II of Hohenzollern, formerly the German Emperor, for a supreme offence against international morality and the sanctity of treaties."
Some of your Lordships may remember some very eloquent speeches and articles on the text of "Hang the Kaiser," and the Press and public of this country and of the United States fully agreed with those speeches, but the Kaiser had bolted and was living in Holland. Article 227 of the Peace Treaty concluded with the words:
"The Allied and Associated Powers will address a request to the Government of the Netherlands for the surrender to them of the ex-Emperor in order that he may be put on trial."
On the 16th January, 1920, a forcible letter, signed with the name of Clemenceau, on behalf of the Powers, was sent to the Dutch Minister, demanding the surrender of the Kaiser to be tried for premeditated violations of international treaties and a number of specified offences against the laws of war, and other barbarous acts, including the carrying off of young girls from Lille and unrestricted submarine warfare. On the 23rd January the Dutch Government replied refusing the surrender on the ground that Holland had, at all times, been a land
558
of refuge for the vanquished in international conflicts. Further epistolary efforts were made by the Supreme Council, but Holland stuck to her ground and the matter of the ex-Kaiser ultimately seems to have been dropped.
In the meantime a list of 896 war criminals, a substantial number, was handed to Baron von Lersner, the German Ambassador. Great Britain demanded 97, Belgium 334, France 334, and other countries various numbers. The list included the names of Hindenburg, Ludendorff, von Mackensen, Tirpitz, and Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria. However, the German Government said they could not comply with the request to surrender these men for trial owing to the great opposition which had been aroused in Germany to their trial abroad. They suggested that the accused should be brought to trial before the Supreme Court of the Empire at Leipzig and, after consideration by an Allied Commission, this was agreed to. This involved a departure from the Articles of the Treaty inasmuch as trials were no longer to be before Military Tribunals but before the legal Supreme Court at Leipzig.
The Allied Governments then selected, out of the 896 accused persons, 45 against whom the most serious charges had been brought. Of these seven names were contributed by our Government: three were those of Naval Commanders and four of military men charged with ill-treatment of prisoners of war. There was considerable difficulty in securing evidence and getting witnesses to go to Leipzig. Moreover, some of the accused had, not unnaturally, disappeared. Many of the witnesses, for instance demobilized soldiers in this country, were unwilling to go to Leipzig and appear before a German Court. After much delay, it was agreed, in February, 1921, that witnesses unable or unwilling to attend the trials at Leipzig should be examined at Bow Street in the presence of representatives of the accused and of the German Government and that their depositions should be transmitted to the Leipzig Court, and that was done. The trials were opened on 23rd May 1921. The lamentable story of the early trials is to be found in the report of the proceedings in the White Paper Cmd. 1450 of 1921. Unfortunately it is out of print. I therefore think I may take a very few

559
minutes in telling your Lordships what happened at the trials.
To start with, three of the accused submitted by His Majesty's Government had gone abroad or they could not be found; but the German Government submitted the names of two other naval officers, Lieutenants Dittmar and Boldt, who had by their action violated German orders. These were officers on board the U.86, commanded by First Lieutenant Patzig, who had disappeared. They had sunk the hospital ship "Llandovery Castle" in the Atlantic in June, 1918, but it so happened they had done it against orders, for the German Government had forbidden the sinking of hospital ships in that part of the Atlantic. They shelled a lifeboat crowded with survivors in the hope of destroying any evidence as to their breach of their orders, with the consequent loss of 234 lives. One of the boats, however, escaped in the darkness. The chart of the course of the submarine was falsified, the sinking of the hospital ship was not mentioned and the crew were all pledged to secrecy. These two men were plainly murderers without the excuse of certain other men who had escaped conviction at Leipzig because they were acting under obedience to superior orders. However, they refused to make any statement and they were sentenced on 17th July, 1921, to four years' imprisonment. The German newspapers appeared the next day with the headline "Four Years' Imprisonment for U-boat heroes." They did not express any sympathy with the victims. A singular fact which should be borne in mind is that Boldt escaped on 18th November and Dr. Dittmar in the following January. Then there were some defendants, who were proved guilty of dreadful brutality in prison camps, who were sentenced to such terms of imprisonment as four months and six months.
I want to economize your Lordships' time and so I will not go through all these cases, but I should like to mention one of the French cases, the only one that was successful. It was against a Major Crusius, who was proved to have murdered large numbers of French prisoners, many with his own hand. Many German witnesses, including a German medical officer, proved the murders. Crusius admitted these facts, but he said, as other prisoners did, that he was acting under orders from above. In that case they
560
were orders from General Stenger, one of the men committed for trial, who was acquitted. He was acquitted on the ground that the Court thought that Major Crusius had mistaken the meaning of some strong expressions used by the General. The General accordingly left the Court carrying bouquets of flowers supplied by the public. Major Crusius was acquitted on most of the charges on the grounds that he was not "master of his nerves." On one manslaughter charge—in reference to a time, I suppose, when he was master of his nerves—he was sentenced to two years' imprisonment. How soon he was allowed to escape I do not know.
While the trials were going on it became more and more apparent that the feeling of the Court was becoming more favourable to the prisoners because of the great public indignation that was being voiced in Germany against the trials taking place at all, and various Powers concerned did not submit a large number of their cases. In the result out of 896 prisoners mentioned in the Black List there were nine convictions. All received light sentences and most of the prisoners were allowed to escape. No person of any importance at all was convicted. The experiment of trials of Germans in Germany by Germans according to German law having broken down—to the surprise of very few people who understood the German mentality—your Lordships may be inclined to ask why no attempt was then made to try the criminals by Military Tribunals, in accordance with the provisions of Articles 228 and 229, to which I have referred. The truth, I think, is that three years had gone by since the Armistice and a good many of the most guilty men had disappeared. On the one hand we were sick and tired of the whole subject, and on the other the Articles were ill-considered and, I venture to think, impracticable.
The tribunals were to be Military Tribunals—in some cases of mixed national Armies—and bound to decide according to law. Who was to appoint them? Who was to arrest the prisoners and provide the gaols? What was meant by the phrase that the guilty were to be sentenced to punishment laid down by law? There was no British military law for trying, say, murder in Germany. The other nations, I am informed, had definite military laws in their own country, but they differed largely inter se. There was

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no arrangement for the precise military law which was to be applied. If the sentence provided for the death penalty who was to execute it, and if for a term of imprisonment where was the prisoner to be gaoled? What State would enforce that provision? I am not surprised, myself, that the whole matter was dropped.
We have often been told that the descent to Hell is an easy one. The Germans seem to have found that the adage was true. The crimes committed by Germany in this war have been more numerous, more horrible and more widespread than in the last war, particularly against the Poles and Russians, the Greeks and the Czechs. The Italians also have done terrible things in the countries their Armies have occupied. Evidence of German atrocities comes from every country they have attacked, and the cry for punishment is universal. What ought to be done? We may safely conclude, I think, that trials in Germany would, if possible, be more futile than in 1920 and 1921, and if the criminals are not to be allowed to escape scot free, we must provide Courts to try them and all the necessary machinery for doing so. We must make up our minds whether the Courts should be Military Courts or Legal Courts and, if the latter, whether the crimes as far as possible should not be tried by the national Courts of the countries whose nationals have been killed or injured, or whether a great International Court should be set up to try at any rate a substantial number of these cases. Here I should mention to your Lordships that a crime such as murder, or any other serious offence against prisoners or civilians, is not the less a crime because it is also forbidden by International Conventions. I am not of course dealing—nobody is thinking of dealing—with the normal acts of war. There is, for example, no reason why the Polish Courts should not deal with the enormous number of murders of men, women and children committed in Polish territory by the Germans, or in Germany, for I understand that the Polish Courts have the necessary jurisdiction.
I see a great difficulty in attempting to try the ordinary crimes by Military Courts, as suggested in Articles 228 and 229, unless, indeed, there should be a permanent occupation of Germany. In our law there is no Military Court with such a power. Martial Law, of course,
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is not law at all and our Military Law does not concern itself with such crimes as we are here considering. It seems to me much better, as regards offences against British subjects, to make provision for the trial of the alleged offenders before our own High Courts with their traditions and their practice and with experienced Judges to decide the matters. After all, it is not the job of military officers to turn themselves into Judges and to try such cases as I have dealt with. I should also mention that breaches of international rules, even when contained in Conventions or Treaties with foreign States, are not, legally speaking, crimes at all, though of course wanton murders and other like acts otherwise than in battle are not the less crimes because prohibited by such Conventions. In this country and in the United States of America the Legislature alone can constitute a legal crime, affecting the life or liberty of an individual. That authority must define the crime, attach a punishment to it, and declare or create the Court which shall possess the necessary jurisdiction. Unless the Legislature has done that a policeman cannot arrest nor a gaoler hold an alleged offender. A Judge cannot convict, nor can any punishment lawfully be inflicted. This, however, is not to say that a high tribunal could not be established with special jurisdiction to try, convict and punish offenders guilty of serious offences against the laws and customs of war.
At present Great Britain and the United States of America are not the countries most concerned. The atrocities committed in Russia, Poland, Greece, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia are burnt in upon our minds. It is Eastern Europe which has suffered in various special ways, and I submit for consideration the question whether it would not, perhaps, be more convenient, more satisfactory, and, in the end, more just that the countries of Eastern Europe should set up their own International Tribunal for dealing with serious offences against the laws and customs of war committed against their own nationals, whilst those committed in Western Europe, including Holland, Belgium and Norway, should be dealt with by a separate International Tribunal. Our gallant Allies in China will, no doubt, deal with the matter in their own way. The opinions and wishes of those States whose subjects have

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suffered most from the Hitler aggressions must be most weighty, and the question whether an International Court should be established with power to try certain acts which are not at present crimes in a juridical sense and to inflict punishment for them, should be largely determined by their wishes.
There is a clause in the Constitution of the United States which raises a certain difficulty for that country as regards the setting up of a tribunal to try crimes which have already been committed. The whole matter is discussed in the memorandum signed with the names of Mr. Robert Lansing and Mr. James Brown Scott, setting out the grounds for their dissent from the Majority Report of the Commission on War Crimes, to which I have already referred, dated March 29, 1919. I cannot take up your Lordships' time in further discussing that matter. There are great difficulties, however, which must attend a criminal trial before an International Court. I shall mention only that of language which may not occur on first sight to somebody who has not been concerned with the trial of people of this character. If we assume that only three countries are represented on the Bench, and that the prisoner is German, that will make four different languages in use, and it may be that everything said in Counsels' speeches, in the examination and cross-examination of the witnesses, and in the remarks or comments of the three or more Judges will have to be translated into three different languages. Necessarily, you would expect that there would be three different interpreters. I can imagine few more unsatisfactory ways of conducting a trial than to deal with it with all this translation holding up every question and every answer and every proceeding at the tribunal. It would take years for such a court to get through quite a small list.
However, I am concerned to speak to your Lordships to-day chiefly on the subject of trial before ordinary juridical Courts of Law for heinous crimes committed on the nationals of those countries represented by the Courts. I urge your Lordships, at the outset, to bear in. mind that the most urgent primary difficulty will be to obtain the surrender of the culprits, the more eminent of whom will have fled to neutral countries. With that in mind, it is clear that new under-
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standings or conventions with those countries will be necessary and should be arranged without unnecessary delay. I had proposed to show your Lordships something about existing defects in these conventions but reflection has led me to the conclusion that it would be unwise to discuss these matters in public, for they require diplomatic discussion of a very delicate character. In my opinion, however, it is clear that if we are to be successful in our efforts to punish war criminals before our Courts, we should be careful to confine the crimes to acts which have been treated as criminal in all civilized countries for hundreds of years. I refer particularly to such crimes as murders (including putting hostages to death), infliction of serious bodily injury, torture, rape and piracy on the high seas, those things being done otherwise than in actual fighting.
Subject to the difficulties as to the jurisdiction of the Courts, which I shall mention in a moment, I am unwilling to believe that any civilized country will be desirous of giving the right of asylum to any of the culprits who have committed one of those dreadful crimes. In our country there is a difficulty of a curious nature, which I must bring to the attention of your Lordships. The jurisdiction of the British Courts—and of several Continental Courts, too—is confined to crimes committed in their own countries. Sometimes this has been extended by Statute, as here under the Act of 1861, to major crimes committed by our own nationals—that is to say by Britons upon Britons. But, at present, we have no power to try Germans for the murders of any British people, or other people not being Germans, in Germany or in German-occupied territory. I want to to make this perfectly clear. A German who has committed the crime of murdering one or more Englishmen in a German prison camp, or otherwise in Germany, may come here, after the war, and live in luxury in a Mayfair hotel, disporting himself in this city without anybody having the right to touch him. Our Courts have no jurisdiction to try him for that offence. That is so in other countries. I believe it is the case in the United States of America, mutatis mutandis.
It is something which we ought not to allow to. continue; our Courts must be given jurisdiction to try persons who have committed the serious crimes which I

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have mentioned against British subjects, even though those crimes were not committed on British soil. Your Lordships will perhaps be relieved to hear that the Germans, who often refer to International Law, cannot object to our Courts possessing such jurisdiction, since I am informed by an expert in German law that their own Courts have the corresponding jurisdiction. Nor is there anything in the rules of International Law to prevent a State from increasing the jurisdiction of its Courts over its own subjects, and doing so with retroactive effect. I can give high authority for that statement of the views of international lawyers if I am required to do so. I submit the following principle for the consideration of the Government, and in particular of your Lordships: that the very serious crimes I have mentioned should, generally speaking, be tried by the national Courts of the victims, whether the actual crime was committed in Germany or in the land of the victim. Thus, a German who has murdered or injured a Pole, whether in Poland or in Germany, should be tried by a Polish Court according to Polish law. A great number of difficulties will be avoided if this principle is adopted.
I must now return to the subject of an International Court, supported by the necessary legislation given by the Legislatures of the various Powers concerned. I shall leave on one side the question of whether such a Court should deal with the trial of specified offenders, such as the present rulers of Germany, and especially with barbarous breaches of International Law. Even so, there are offences which cannot, I think, effectively be tried before national Courts. I will mention a few: crimes against persons, and in particular against Jews, who have been deprived of any nationality; cases of mass murder as the consequence of an order, such as the drastic removal of foodstuffs ordered by a German officer or by some sort of German tribunal, necessarily resulting in wide-spread starvation of the population; similar acts necessarily causing death by exposure; orders for the removal of numbers of young women, sometimes to an unknown destination and obviously for the purposes of prostitution; cases where two or more Courts of different Allied States have jurisdiction; cases where it is uncertain which of two or more such Courts have the necessary jurisdiction; and finally, cases where, owing to political un-
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rest in the country where the crime was committed, it may be difficult to hold a proper trial, and that country may request the International Tribunal to accept the duty of trying the case. Those are only examples. In all these cases it seems to be desirable that a special International Tribunal, however cumbrous its machinery may be, should be set up and given the necessary powers, rather than that the criminal should escape for lack of a suitable tribunal. I think that almost all the international jurists in this country at the present time—and there is a great number of them—are at one on this matter.
The question of the nature and powers of the proposed International Court is one on which many views may be expressed, and I do not want to take up your Lordships' time by going into it in any detail. There are certain important matters, however, which I should like to suggest for consideration. Firstly, the Court should not attempt to impinge upon the jurisdiction of the national Courts which are able and willing to try offenders. Secondly, the crimes to be tried should be limited to those which are so serious as to shock the conscience of mankind, such as those I have already mentioned. Thirdly, the Tribunal must not be asked to try thousands of prisoners; the only result of giving it an enormous list of criminals to try would be that the attempt would prove to be futile, owing partly to the difficulty of obtaining the necessary evidence and partly to the great length of time which the trials would occupy. After two or three years have elapsed it would be difficult, if not impossible, to obtain the necessary evidence and to procure the surrender of the prisoners from Germany or from neutral countries, even if they could be found. It is easy to pretend that a culprit cannot be discovered, and it is very difficult for the country who requires his production to prove the contrary. Moreover, after a certain number of years, as happened after the last war, everybody will be sick and tired of the whole matter, and will want to close the horrid account. The concurrence of the neutral countries will, of course, be needed in some cases, and that would not be possible, or at any rate would be very difficult, unless the action is limited to crime so serious that the perpetrators cannot put forward any reasonable claim to a right of asylum.
I must touch on what is a cognate matter, although it may not have precisely the same character as the matters with which I have been dealing. I refer to the restoration of property confiscated by German orders from occupied countries. This must be left to Army Commissions; that is, to special bodies with military assistance. The property in question includes not only works of art but libraries, the equipment of schools, scientific instruments, machinery and plant from factories, locomotives and rolling stock of railways, steel in many forms, and indeed, vast quantities of property belonging to State museums, universities, churches, charitable institutions, schools, hospitals and factories. So far as this property cannot be found, the Restitution Commission must be authorized to take equivalents, and to hand over these equivalents to the countries which have been despoiled.
I do not expect a detailed answer to the general question which I have raised, and indeed I should deprecate any hasty decision on matters with which, as I have said, in my opinion the Allied countries must be primarily concerned. We are ourselves concerned to see that there will be jurisdiction to try in this country, before our own Courts, inhuman acts committed against our nationals in Germany, and that power our Courts do not at present possess. I hope that no one will imagine that in giving reasons for confining the scope of the effort to punish war criminals in the way I have suggested, I am doing so for any reason whatever except a desire to achieve the maximum practical result. I am certainly not influenced by any sympathy with those Germans who have, in the course of the war, wholly disregarded not only the rules and conventions of International Law, but also the laws and customs of civilized humanity. The gloomy monomaniac Hitler, and the horrible entourage which he has gathered around him, and also, I am afraid, the great majority of the Germans in the Fighting Forces and the Gestapo, are all marked by this single characteristic, that their actions reek of cold-blooded cruelty. They have indeed, in the course of seeking to achieve their desire, shut and barred and bolted the gates of mercy on mankind. The men guilty of these crimes pollute the earth, and they poison the
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atmosphere which they breathe. In my judgment they ought not to be permitted to live, and if it proves to be impracticable to get more than a small number of them brought before a Court of Justice we may yet by proper measures and arrangements make it impossible for them after the war to hope for any future existence except that of a precarious, hunted, dishonoured life in one of the less civilized countries of the world. I beg to move.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I am sure the House, indeed the country, is indebted to the noble and learned Viscount for bringing this subject before us and for the study which he has given to it. I am not competent to examine or discuss the various technical questions which he has mentioned. I think it is the earnest and passionate desire of all of us that the experience that we had in this matter at the conclusion of the last war shall not be repeated. I am not competent to make suggestions as to the form of the tribunal and the methods of giving it appropriate powers, but I think we shall all be agreed, from the recital which the noble and learned Viscount has given to us, that this is not a matter which should be delayed. It clearly requires attention beforehand. It requires agreement between the different Allied Nations, and it requires, I do not doubt, special Acts to be agreed upon, and the form of them. None of these things can be done quickly. We know that even the law's delays are proverbial, but the preparation of an agreed system of administering the law among a great diversity of nations obviously presents many opportunities for postponement and delay; and I hope very much that in the statement we shall, I trust, get later on from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, we and all those who think as we do will receive some definite encouragement to the effect that this matter is going to be taken in hand without delay.
I was glad that the noble and learned Viscount mentioned the abuse of the right of asylum. We see reports in the papers—if they are true—that many of these leading Nazi ruffians apparently have already provided themselves with places of refuge in one or other of the few neutral countries left in the world. How the proceedings should be taken or what should be done in advance in regard to those other countries—Sweden or Switzerland, for example—I am not competent

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to say, but of one thing I am sure, that we ought not to allow these villains to escape from proper trial and, if need be, conviction. The right of asylum was grossly misused after the end of the last war, and the proceedings were tedious and complicated and tiresome. What happened then would certainly happen again and, as the noble and learned Viscount said, everyone would become sick and tired of the whole subject. Justice would be thwarted unless arrangements were made and agreed upon beforehand for prompt and effective treatment. With these general remarks I would like to say that we will give what friendly support we can to the Motion of the noble and learned Viscount.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount has brought forward this most important question in a speech in which we were all, I am sure, deeply interested, full of knowledge and experience; and I hope—and I think the noble Lord who has just spoken hoped—that it is not presumption on the part of those who have had no special legal training to take some part in the debate. The noble and learned Viscount early in his speech spoke of analogies to be drawn from the experience in the last war. We are always being warned, so far as operations are concerned, by sea, land or air, whether it be a matter of strategy or of tactics, not to pay too much attention to what happened in the last war, for it would be most dangerous to do so, and I confess I think that in this matter also the circumstances are so different from those which obtained after the 1914–18 war that not very many useful lessons can be drawn from what happened then.
What exactly is meant by, a war criminal? There is a class of person who did not exist to any extent, popularly known now by the name of a Norwegian politician which, rendered into English, made an admirable new term for treason and treachery. Treason is undoubtedly a crime and may be a war crime, and there may be some cases in which those treasonable subjects of occupied countries have actually assisted, or at all events condoned, some of the war crimes committed by the occupying Axis forces. But those cases obviously must be left to the countries themselves to deal with. Poland, Norway, Czecho-Slovakia, Greece—all
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those countries must deal with their own treasonable subjects in their own way. So far as France is concerned, we all feel that the spineless poltroons, whose collaboration has brought the name of France to a lower level than it has reached in a thousand years of history, must be dealt with by Frenchmen themselves. That is one class of what might be called war criminals.
Then there is the class of statesmen and rulers of whom the noble and learned Viscount instanced the case of the Emperor William at the conclusion of the last war. Many of us remember the clamour that was raised then, and the noble and learned Viscount has described precisely what happened in the case of the demand made to the Dutch Government for the surrender of the Emperor William. In my opinion the Dutch Government were perfectly right to refuse the surrender of the German Emperor. His trial would have been a great inconvenience to the Allied Powers, and the question of the proper punishment of a man who, many of us believe, did not at all want the war because he was afraid of it, would have been very difficult to decide. Now it seems to me the question is entirely different—that the ruling powers of Germany and to some extent of Italy have piled up a degree of personal guilt which it is very difficult to exaggerate. As to what steps would have to be taken to deal with these men, it is hardly possible to contemplate at this moment the form of International Tribunal before which they should be brought. Therefore I do not attempt to discuss that question further. There is also the very much larger class of those who are in a more general and popular sense described as war criminals—that is to say, persons who have been guilty of acts of cruelty contrary to the generally accepted laws of war and, in some cases, guilty of ordinary crimes of the most heinous sort.
The noble and learned Viscount gave us a most interesting account of the abortive trials at Leipzig. It is obviously clear that there can be no repetition of any attempt to institute a tribunal of that sort either in Germany or in Italy. I remember quite well that Lord Hanworth, who was at that time Master of the Rolls, and of whom many of your Lordships will have pleasant recollections in this House, told me he was impressed by the sense of fairness and dignity which animated the

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Judges who tried those cases. From what the noble and learned Viscount has just told us, those qualities do not seem to have succeeded in producing a very marked result in the way of just administration of the law. However that may be, it is quite clear that there are no Judges of that calibre in Germany at this moment, unless perhaps there are a few in concentration camps. Therefore that question can be passed over. The noble and learned Viscount has expressed an opinion as to how these criminals ought to be tried. I confess I was sorry to hear that he does not think it can be done through Military Tribunals. I should have thought that Military Courts, set up at convenient places all over the European Continent, would be able to act with greater promptitude—and, after all, prompt action is of the essence of the whole affair—than would be possible if the prisoners, German or Italian or whatever they may be, were taken to be tried in the country whose citizens have been the subject of outrage.
I confess that trials according to our British tradition, taking place in this country with the whole dignified apparatus of our High Court and with possible recourse to appeals, strike me as being too circuitous and lengthy a process to be applied to these particular cases. In this country we are proud of the fact that a man brought before a Court of Law must be regarded as innocent unless absolute proof is forthcoming that he is guilty. I well remember many years ago a case which created a sensation at the time, at the trial of which the prisoner was rather unexpectedly acquitted. It so happened that a few days later I was staying in the same house as the learned Judge who had tried the case—one of the most experienced of Judges in criminal cases. He told us he had never been so proud of a jury in his life because, he said, without exception they believed the prisoner guilty of murdering his wife, but they also agreed that the requisite degree of proof was not available. If the case had been tried in Scotland the verdict would have been "Not proven."
I am certainly not in favour of any form of indiscriminate trial, one not depending on clear evidence, but I think that care can be overdone, and as I happen to have had the unusual experience
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of being both at the Colonial Office and the India Office, I confess it has struck me on several occasions that the application of our strict rules to persons who have not been brought up in the traditions we have, can often be misunderstood and can lead many times to failure to secure justice. Therefore, with all deference to the noble and learned Viscount, I greatly regret that some more prompt and immediate form of trial of the nature of a Court Martial cannot be applied in all these cases; but I say this, of course, with the utmost deference to the superior knowledge of the noble and learned Viscount. I have nothing to add to what I have said, but I must express great pleasure in the fact that the noble and learned Viscount has brought forward this matter at an early date, for I am sure it is one which ought to be very carefully considered owing to the extreme complications which surround it in view of the great number of nations, concerned.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I desire at the outset to express my own personal obligation to my noble and learned friend for the speech which he delivered—a sentiment which I am sure will be shared by every member of your Lordships' House—and also to say that it would be a gross abuse of your Lordships' patience if, after so careful a study of the subject as he has made and given to your Lordships, any of us made long orations on the subject. Yet, with your Lordships' permission, I must say something, for I feel that this is a very important question. I am not quite sure that people recognize how important it is. Let me explain that I do not propose to deal with the question to which my noble friend, Lord Crewe, referred, the question of what are ordinarily called Quislings, because that is evidently a matter for each country to settle itself: each must deal with its own traitors. That does not come in my purview of the question, nor am I going to ask your Lordships to consider another subject on which Lord Maugham touched—namely, that of restitution of goods or property. I will confine myself entirely to the question of crimes, as understood in the ordinary popular sense of that word, and the need for taking action even now, as far as it can be taken, in order to secure that this question shall certainly not receive the treatment that a similar question received at Paris in 1919.

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There seem to me to be very strong reasons why we should deal with this matter effectively. There is, of course, the obvious reason that you must satisfy the demand for retribution which pervades the whole of Europe, and particularly the occupied countries, which to anyone who has taken the trouble to read accounts of these: horrible crimes—and they really are incredibly horrible crimes—is not only natural but, one cannot refrain from saying, laudable also. Unless something is done to meet that passionate feeling you will certainly be exposed to, among other grave evils, something in the nature of wholesale massacres of persons who may be thought to be either Germans, or sympathizers with Germans, wherever they can be caught and whatever their guilt or innocence may be. I believe the only way you can hope to prevent such a very disastrous result of our victory is to convince the people, who naturally feel with extreme bitterness about these matters, that the criminals are going to be properly, decorously and judicially punished. There is also the other motive for punishment, the motive of the prevention of crimes of this character in future, which also must not be forgotten. But I do not propose to dwell upon that point in what I desire to say to your Lordships this afternoon.
There is, however, one third reason to which I venture to attach very great importance. To my mind, and I think to the minds of your Lordships generally, one of the most disastrous results of the Nazi action and Nazi creed has been the destruction of what used to be an almost universal respect, at any rate in words, for law and justice. I think that is a most terrible evil that has happened to the world, because on the supremacy of the law depends all the great structure of liberty and political freedom which we have erected in this country and which has been followed in so many other countries of the world. The thing we must keep before our minds when we come to make peace is the need that that principle shall be re-erected as far as we can re-erect it, so that it will be generally accepted as the motive and guide of political and international action in the future.
These three purposes, retribution, prevention and respect for the law, require certain conditions if we are to carry them out as they ought to be carried out. In the first place, in any system of trial that we establish or recommend, we must
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certainly desire to see something in the nature of certainty, so that criminals will be punished according to the evidence given against them. It is for that reason—and I shall have to say a word or two on it in a moment—that I am afraid I do not share the admiration, or rather preference, of my noble friend Lord Crewe for Military rather than Civil Courts. I do not want to say a word against Military Courts, but I do not think they will be the best to deal with this situation. Not only must there be certainty but—here I heartily agree with the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham—there must be rapidity. Last time there was neither certainty nor rapidity in the punishment of the criminals that were then arraigned. In addition to certainty and rapidity we must aim—I do beg noble Lords to agree with this—at impartiality in the trial even of men charged with these crimes. I know there is a very natural feeling that the great thing is to get the criminals punished. That is a very important thing, no doubt, but in the interests of respect for law, in the interests of prevention of crime in the future, in the interests of retribution itself, the essential thing is not so much that criminals should be punished as that innocent people should not be punished. That is true even in this case.
There may be people who take the view that every German is guilty and therefore it does not much matter whom you try or do not try, but I do not think that is a view which will commend itself to your Lordships. You will feel that these crimes, these horrors having been committed—we hope they can be brought home to individuals—it is very important that only those who have committed the crimes should be punished. We have in this country built up elaborate safeguards in our Criminal Law to protect the innocent. My noble friend the Marquess of Crewe thinks that for certain purposes they are too elaborate. I hesitate to disagree with him, but I hope he will reconsider that opinion. I admit that I am almost a fanatical admirer of English law and English justice. I believe it is the best thing of the kind that has ever been created in the world, and, though of course it has defects, those defects are far less than in any other system of law with which I am acquainted. I do not want to throw away that experience. It has enabled us to have an extra-

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ordinary freedom from crime in this country. It has enabled all those who have suffered from crime to feel that their grievance is going to be properly and justly tried. It has promoted respect for law and justice, and it has been of infinite value. Of course there are many difficulties. Anybody who has given five minutes thought to the question must know that, and I do not propose to ask your Lordships to examine them here and now.
Primarily these are matters which the Government must examine with their expert advisers, and though I think your Lordships may be able, and I hope will be able, to give great assistance to any Government by suggestions made in debate, in the end it must be for the Government to decide these difficult questions. There is the question, for instance, of jurisdiction to which the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, referred. There is the question of post-war legislation, the question of appeal, the question of the surrender of culprits by the countries to which they belong, and there is the question which my noble and learned friend I think a little exaggerated, if he will allow me to say so, the question of languages. That is a question which, of course, has to be dealt with in every international proceeding and I do not think it has proved incapable of solution. All these questions will have to be considered very carefully when it comes to working out a definite detailed plan, which I hope we shall work out before we have to enter the Peace Conference. On that point I find myself in very close agreement with what the noble Viscount says.
I am satisfied that both practically and theoretically the great mass of this kind of crime ought to be dealt with by the national Courts of those countries whose nationals have been the victims of the crimes. I see no objection to that, and I think if there are legal objections they could probably be put right very rapidly by the necessary legislation. I am sure that will be a practical way of dealing with them and I venture to say to my noble friend Lord Crewe that I do not think there ought to be any delay. The ordinary criminal trial in this country is generally carried through with great expedition and normally it does not last more than a very few hours. These
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cases, which, so far as they are looked at from the point of criminality, are extremely plain—the simple question will be whether you have got hold of the right man—ought to be capable of being tried with rapidity. I think they would be in this country and I think they could be tried with equal rapidity in other countries.
I also agree that there must be for certain kinds of crime some International Tribunal. One of the things which will have to be considered carefully is exactly how that International Tribunal is to be constructed and what crimes ought to come before it. It would be a futile and not very dignified proceeding if you tried one member of the present Government of Germany for a murder because the result of the action he took generally was to produce the murder of British subjects, whereas it was perfectly well known that the real thing of which he was guilty was not so much the crime of a particular murder but mass murder caused by his reckless, wicked and shameful proceedings. Therefore this kind of crime, I think, will have to be tried by some International Tribunal, and that observation applies particularly to cases where there may be a doubt as to whether any single country would have jurisdiction to try them. However, I do not want to go into details of the Courts that are to try these criminals. I quite recognize that there is a great deal to be considered, and I hope your Lordships will be kind enough to treat the few words I have said as merely suggestions, not as a fixed plan, because I think that must be left to the Government to elaborate.
What I want very much to urge on the Government is that they will not do what was done in the last war—leave the matter without any definite examination, still less definite conclusion, until the last moment. My recollection is that there was very little consideration given then to the question of what was to be done with war criminals beyond rather rhetorical demands to hang the Kaiser. The result was that when we got to Paris I doubt whether we had any definite and precise plan to put before the Commission that was appointed to consider the matter. That must not be so again. We must have a plan and that plan must be worked out in some respects—as my noble friend Lord Maugham has pointed out—before the Peace Conference, so that

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we shall know exactly what we want to do. We certainly ought to consider in advance such questions as the nature and composition of International Tribunals and what kind of people should be asked to sit upon them.
That is all I need trouble your Lordships with to-day. But I will just add this. I am satisfied that this is a matter on which very deep interest is excited. That interest is very considerable even in this country, and it is far greater, as is natural enough, amongst the residents and nationals of the countries which have been occupied by German or other enemy troops. They feel and suffer most profoundly. I think it is of the utmost importance that that aspect of the matter should not be forgotten, because I am satisfied that on the settlement of this question not only will the fate of the criminals depend, but it may be that it will have very far-reaching effects on our relations with other countries of the world.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, there will be general agreement that my noble and learned friend, Viscount Maugham, has introduced to-day a most grave and difficult matter. We all, I am sure, are grateful to him for the great pains that he must have taken before he presented his acute analysis of this problem to the House, and for all the research which he has made into what is undoubtedly a very complicated subject. I would like, however, first to say how deeply and sincerely I agreed with the emphasis which the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, has put upon the importance of this matter. Hitler has recently proclaimed that there is no law in Germany except his will. If anybody were to be so foolish as to forget the lessons of the Peace Treaty after the last war—to which our attention has been drawn—and to suggest that there were now some impartial tribunals in Germany that could be asked to deal with this matter, surely it must be apparent that there are none. There is not a single judicial authority in Germany from beginning to end which is anything more than an instrument, willing or unwilling, of the Führer's will.
In another respect the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, put his finger upon a point which moves me, at any rate, very deeply. I know from contacts which I
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have had with the representatives of the smaller European Allies, whose Governments are now in London, that this subject is to them one of passionate importance. They read of their own relations, friends and fellow-countrymen being treated in horrible ways, and one of the matters to which they anchor hope is that we may find the means, when this war ends, of showing that that sort of thing does not pay. I therefore approach this question with real feeling as to its importance, and with a great desire to contribute anything I can towards its solution.
I have, as will appear in the course of my remarks, some observations to make, some announcements to make, which represent the views not only of this Government but also of friendly Governments in alliance with us, and I therefore do not propose to delay very long in discussing the more technical side of the matter which my noble and learned friend Lord Maugham quite naturally, and very instructively, analyses. It is perhaps a dangerous thing to express even a provisional preference, but it has been interesting to compare the attitude of my noble and learned friend Lord Maugham with that of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, and the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, on at any rate one of the topics raised—should we put our main reliance upon Military Courts, or upon national Courts, or upon some new entity which would remain to be created, which is ordinarily called an international Criminal Court? I think, if I may say so with great respect to him, that I found myself much attracted to the practical good sense of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, when he observed that Military Courts at any rate could act quickly. While I was pleased to bear from the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil—who must of old times know the subject at first hand—that we may also expect promptitude from British Criminal Courts, I am not entirely convinced that the rate of procedure in the Criminal Courts in all the Allied countries is quite so rapid as ours.
At any rate, let me say this on the subject of Military Courts. I take it to be perfectly well-established International Law that the laws of war permit a belligerent commander to punish by means of his Military Courts any hostile offender against the laws and customs of war who may fall into his hands wherever be the

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place where the crime was committed. I think that the authorities who spend their time in studying the principles of International Law—and they can be of great help to us here, atlhough the subject itself has of necessity fallen into some disuse—would confirm that proposition. In view of the fact that prompt action is one of the first essentials, I cannot help thinking that the victorious Armies in the field—or the Navies—with this undoubted mandate conferred upon them might very well turn out to be the bodies that would provide very effective and prompt working tribunals for dealing with many of these horrible cases. But I do not shut aside the alternative to which the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, drew our attention—what I think he called the national Courts.
National Courts, in my view, are equally entitled to exercise whatever criminal jurisdiction would be conceded to them by International Law. Here I would emphasize a distinction implicit in my noble friend's remarks, although it is of a slightly technical character. The real question, in relation to national Courts, is not so much whether the domestic law of a particular nation has already conferred upon the particular national Courts concerned a particular jurisdiction. It may not have gone to the full length which Intenational Law would recognize and permit. The important question is this: what is the ambit of the jurisdiction which might by International Law be conferred upon them, as for example, in the present case, by Parliament here actually legislating to enlarge, within permissible limits, the jurisdiction of our Courts to deal with crimes committed abroad?
I will venture to make one observation, purely provisional and tentative, on the third class of tribunal to which attention has naturally been drawn, and which both the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, and the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, discussed. I agree, if I may say so, with the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, that the main difficulty in creating and putting to work effectively this conception of an International Criminal Court is not the difficulty of language; but let nobody run away with the idea that this is an easy conception. It is a very easy conception to make speeches about in general terms, but it is an ex
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ceedingly difficult matter to deal with if one desires to face and to try to overcome the practical difficulties. The composition of such a Court is not going to be a very easy matter, especially when there are so many belligerents. Strictly speaking, I do not think that it ought to be called an International Court; it ought to be called a United Nations Court, or an Allied Court, for, unlike The Hague Tribunal, or bodies of that sort, it does not really aim at staffing itself by Judges drawn from, amongst others, the enemy countries, or, I should think, the neutral countries.
Then, when you have created this novel tribunal, you still have to face the question of what is the code of law which it is going to apply. I think myself, as a man who has spent a good deal of his life in the practical business of the law, that one of the greatest difficulties of all, which I dare say to a layman seems comparatively unimportant, would be procedure; for the procedure which is understood and followed in a British Court is completely unlike the methods which are followed elsewhere. There may be a great deal to be said for both views, but before your Court can even start you have to decide what your procedure is going to be. Therefore, without in the least wishing to pour cold water on the idea—and indeed, I see the importance of the point made both by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, and by the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, regarding exceptional cases—I think that we shall probably be wise to put our main trust, as far as a tribunal goes, in tribunals which do not call themselves international
There is one other observation which I should like to make before I enter on the positive statement which I am anxious to put before your Lordships on this most important subject. My noble and learned friend Lord Maugham referred to extradition. He warned us—and he was well justified in warning us—that this is one of the most complicated topics which can engage the attention of anybody, at any rate as far as the different treaties are concerned. Indeed, a very limited number of people would claim to be anything like completely competent to deal with the whole subject. The observation that I wish to make is this. There is not, as many people suppose, any private right, recognized in International Law, called the

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right of asylum. That is to say, the fugitive—the criminal—who manages to get over the border into some other country, is not thereby by International Law entitled to claim to stay there. It is quite another question to ask whether the country to which he has fled will be willing to give him up; and no doubt a country is obliged to give up a fugitive only if the case falls within an existing extradition treaty, which defines the relations between the country which has got him and the country which wants him.
With very great respect, however, it is fallacious to suppose that people who run to the ends of the earth thereby acquire a right of asylum. It is perfectly competent for the country which receives the criminal, whether there is an extradition treaty or not, if that country thinks that it will be fulfilling its duty to the world, or if its conception of public policy requires or justifies it, to hand the criminal over. The Hague Tribunal upheld that very proposition long ago, in a case which I remember. But we need not deal with technicalities, and therefore, although I wish to make no further observations about extradition, I venture to think that, in discussing this subject, it is rather important not to encourage the idea that everybody who gets away into some other land thereby acquires a sort of right to stay where he is, which is invaded and denied him if the country that wishes to have him handed over applies for him.
I should now like to tarn to another aspect of this matter, and I confess that the aspect which I am now going to emphasize is one which I, at any rate, think is of the greatest practical importance; and yet in this most interesting debate it has not received much attention. It is this. If, this time, there is going to be, after the victory of the United Nations, due punishment of these abominable war crimes, perpetrated in breach of the laws of war by enemy nationals and for which enemy individuals must be held responsible, it would be a grave mistake to concern ourselves at this stage merely with the discussion of the most appropriate tribunal to deal with such charges, or with the minutiae of juridical analysis. Whatever the tribunal may be, there are two pre-requisites without which no tribunal for dealing with war crimes can effectively act, and these two conditions will not be satisfied unless
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definite steps are taken to that end. What are they? The one is the recording of evidence, and the other is securing the presence of the accused at the trial. We can all discuss these fine points about the right Court until the crack of doom, but, unless the criminal tribunal has got those two conditions satisfied, it cannot exercise its powers. No criminal tribunal can effectively exercise its powers unless it has physically before it the person charged—because this is a criminal proceeding—and unless there is available for it in some form the proof which is alleged to establish the crime. Of course I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Cecil that, though feelings are naturally deeply stirred here, we have the most solemn duty to hold strictly by the rule that people shall only be punished because they are proved to be guilty.
Now these two matters which I have ventured to call to your attention raise questions which for some time past have been occupying the attention of His Majesty s Government and which, after being closely studied have been the subject of communication with others of the United Nations; and, thanks to the consideration of my noble and learned friend, who was good enough at my request to postpone the day for the discussion of his Motion, I am now in a position to make on behalf of His Majesty's Government an announcement on both those points. And it will be seen from what I am about to say that the view we take is not the view of ourselves alone.
Firstly, then, as to the collection of the necessary evidence. The proposal is to set up with the least possible delay a United Nations Commission for the Investigation of War Crimes. The Commission will be composed of nationals of the United Nations, selected by their Governments. The Commission will investigate war crimes committed against nationals of the United Nations recording the testimony available, and the Commission will report from time to time to the Governments of those nations cases in which such crimes appear to have been committed, naming and identifying wherever possible the persons responsible. The Commission should direct its attention in particular to organized atrocities. Atrocities perpetrated by or on the orders of Germany in Occupied France should be included. The investigation should cover war crimes of offenders irrespective of

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rank, and the aim will be to collect material, supported wherever possible by depositions or by other documents, to establish such crimes, especially where they are systematically perpetrated, and to name and identify those responsible for their perpetration.
It is possible that your Lordships may have heard on the wireless, I think only two nights ago, an account given by a Norwegian who had just escaped from Oslo of the treatment he received in the Gestapo House there. He gave, as I remember, the name of the man who had directed these cruelties upon him. Well, it seems to me the United Nations Commission might think that a very suitable case promptly to record. Of course we all realize that it may well be that the testimony and proofs will have to be supplemented later on, but it is hardly necessary to point out how valuable information promptly collected will be for the work of any tribunal dealing with the subject hereafter. It is not only the experience of all of you but it is a common difficulty in a lawyer's life, when he is endeavouring to establish whether a piece of testimony is of weight and accuracy, that that testimony has become stale and smudged by the passage of a long time before it was recorded.
Now I have made a statement which I feel certain greatly interests all your Lordships, but I have to make a further statement which will emphasize its importance. A corresponding statement as to this proposed Commission for the Investigation of War Crimes is being issued in Washington by the President of the United States this afternoon. This proposal, therefore, has the joint support of the Government of the United States and of His Majesty's Government. It has been communicated to the other United Nations directly concerned, including, of course, our Soviet and Chinese Allies, the Dominions and India, and the Fighting French, with a view to obtaining their concurrence and co-operation, and already we have received from the Allied Governments established in London and from the French National Committee replies warmly approving and adopting this proposal.
The ambit and purpose of the United Nations Commission for the Investigation of War Crimes—that is to be its title—
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will be clear from what I have already said, but to avoid any misunderstanding and to take away any possible excuse for misrepresentation in enemy quarters, His Majesty's Government wish to add this—and a statement to the same effect is, I understand, being issued at this moment in Washington by the United States Government. In making this proposal for an investigating Commission the aim is not to promote the execution of enemy nationals wholesale; the aim is the punishment of individuals, obviously very few in number in relation to the total enemy population—individuals who are proved to be themselves responsible, whether as ring-leaders or as actual perpetrators, for atrocities—atrocities which violate every tenet of humanity and have involved the murder of thousands, of tens of thousands, of innocent persons.
Our object—and I wish to emphasize the point, for I am sure it will have your Lordships' warm approval—is not to undertake or encourage mass executions but to fix these horrible crimes upon those enemy individuals who are really responsible, and who ought to be dealt with as criminals in respect of them. Here I will borrow and adopt an observation made just now by the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil. I am persuaded that it is only by the carrying out with complete impartiality of some such system as this that we could contribute to prevent what would otherwise be still further massacres of still more people, many of them innocent, who certainly will not have received a fair and orderly trial.
I now turn to the second topic of importance to which I referred—namely, steps for the production of persons accused. It is a most difficult question to which a great deal of attention has been given, to my knowledge, not only by official bodies, but also by very important and well-instructed committees. To obtain the surrender of the culprits—how is that to be secured? It has been natural and very instructive that we should have had our attention called by my noble and learned friend to-day to the fiasco on this matter which followed the Treaty of Versailles. We therefore seek a different method, and here again, I am glad to say, the United States and ourselves are taking a common stand and are making a contemporaneous declaration. The Treaty of Versailles failed to secure the

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effective punishment of the principal criminals, partly owing to the fact that provision for this purpose was only contained in the final Treaty of Peace, negotiated and signed months and months after the Armistice in June, 1919. What my noble friend Lord Cecil has told us of his recollection of what went before is a warning, and certainly justifies the insistence that more than one of your Lordships have expressed that things should not be left to run until we come to the end of the fighting. We do not intend to make the same mistake as was made by postponing this demand until the final treaty of peace has been signed. Named criminals wanted for war crimes should be caught and handed over at the time of, and as a condition of, the Armistice, with the right to require the delivery of others as soon as the supplementary investigations are complete.
This proposal is also one which is welcomed by our European Allies established in London and by the Fighting French who have all associated themselves with it. We are, of course, also in communication with Soviet Russia and China on the point as well as with the Dominions and India, who are further away, but we are still awaiting replies. I would emphasize that this last provision which I have mentioned is one to which our European Allies now established in London attach extreme importance. When one reflects on the horrible story of cruelty and outrage from which their homelands and yellow citizens have suffered, and are suffering still, one can well understand the reason for their determination.
Such are the two proposals, supported by the Government of the United States and by our European Allies which I have named, which I now put before the House. They are definite steps, to be taken with a serious purpose. They will, of course, require a great deal of elaboration and working out. Some of the technical matters mentioned in the debate today require also the closest attention, and all this must be done not by ourselves alone, but in co-operation with our Allies. I am sure we should pursue resolutely this course, difficult as the way may be. The proposal contemplates post-war action in a region where there are very few precedents to guide us, but we will act in the spirit of the declaration, quoted by Lord Maugham, made not long
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ago by the Prime Minister himself when he said that, henceforth, among the major purposes of the war must be included the exaction of retribution for the cold-blooded execution of innocent people. The Prime Minister added on that occasion that the atrocities in Poland, in Yugoslavia, in Norway, in Holland, in Belgium, in Greece, and above all, perhaps, behind the German lines in Russia, surpassed anything known since the darkest and most bestial ages of mankind.
That leads me to a reflection with which I shall conclude. It is now more than 300 years since a very great Dutchman, whose range of knowledge in many respects might be compared with that of Francis Bacon, wrote a treatise on the laws of war which began the effort of civilized mankind to restrict the cruelties and sufferings which the practice of barbarous warfare brought in its train upon the innocent. When that book was first read and studied, the world was horrified at the ravages and sufferings inflicted upon innocent people during the Thirty Years War. What is the story since then about this matter? It is a story that should interest us all, for it is false to say that what has been attempted has merely been the technical, bloodless efforts of a few so-called international lawyers. Since the time of Hugo Grotius, by the effort of men of many nations, including in the past some distinguished Germans, a code of conduct has gradually been evolved which has been treated, not as the vain imaginings of a few pedants, but as the practical guide, to be found at this moment in the Manual of Military Law published by the War Office, for the protection of the inhabitants of occupied territories from the violence of the invaders.
That is the historical setting in which this question should be put. The Nazis and their allies have thrown the whole of this code overboard. They have set no limit to the ferocity with which the innocent inhabitants of occupied territories—the aged, the Jews, the women, the children—have been treated. When, therefore, this world war at length reaches its conclusion—the only conclusion which free men and women will ever accept—the world will have to face a choice between alternatives—either the efforts of centuries to establish and preserve decent conduct in occupied territories are to come to

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naught and we are to rattle back into something even worse than the barbarities of the Middle Ages; or else those nations which realize that world progress depends on preserving decencies of conduct must undertake and discharge the burden which falls to them, not to condone, or pass a sponge over, these frightful events, but to note them and to do their best, as we and the Allies will do, to show that they cannot go unpunished.
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE had the following Notice on the Paper: To move to resolve, That this House, having learnt with indignation and horror that during their occupation of Poland the authorities of Hitlerite Germany have, for no crime other than that of being Poles, officially executed over 140,000 men and women, tortured many more in prisons and concentration camps, deported 1,500,000 to slave labour in Germany, and robbed over 2,000,000 in the Western provinces of all they possessed and before expelling them to Central Poland, thus in every way outraging both International Law and the laws of humanity itself, expresses to the Polish people its heartfelt admiration for their inspiring example of continuous and unflinching fortitude, protests in the name of civilization against the policy of deliberate extermination of the Polish people and pledges its word to heroic Poland that her sacrifice will not be in vain and that due retribution for all these crimes will unfailingly be exacted.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House more than a few minutes, but your Lordships will have noticed flint I have had upon the Order Paper of the House a somewhat kindred Motion, dealing particularly with the atrocities committed in Poland. I think it would have been convenient to your Lordships if this Motion had been debated with the Motion of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, but in view of the trend of the debate to-day, and particularly in view of the important pronouncement from the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, I feel that it is inopportune or unnecessary at this moment to press further illustrations, which I could have brought (and which indeed have been mentioned) of what has occurred in the country of Poland. But from the statement which has just been made by the Lord Chan-
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cellor, I think it would be more appropriate if I ask your Lordships to consider the subject which appears under my name at a later stage and not during this particular discussion. I should, however, like to support in general what has been brought forward by the noble Viscount, Lord Maugham, in his Motion, and to say that at a later stage I hope to ask your Lordships to take the second part of my Motion, more emphatically that part which deals with the appreciation by this country of the value of the work done by Poland in its gallant stand.
LORD LANG OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this discussion, but I am moved to do so for a few minutes before the reply of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, to whom we are so greatly indebted for this afternoon's discussion. This is the very first occasion on which the subject, about which there has been an immense amount of eloquence and fervour, has been at all seriously discussed, and, therefore, it seems to me that it might perhaps be regarded as unnatural if, on this particular subject and at this particular moment, no words were said about what may be called the larger moral aspects of the matter. I think it would be the greatest mistake if we were to allow it to be supposed that in advocating, and indeed in insisting upon retribution, we were merely endeavouring to provide the means by which we and other outraged nations, who have suffered so infinitely more than we have, can find satisfaction for our feelings. I think it is important to insist that this is a matter which concerns the rightful vindication before the world of essential moral principles on matters of this kind.
Adequate punishment is due to the individual himself who has committed the crimes alleged against him if they are proved. It is as old a principle at least as Plato that you could do no greater disservice to a man who has committed come crime or sin than for any reason whatever to let him off. It is due to him, it is part of what we owe to our neighbour, that he should, by adequate punishment, be made sensible of the gravity of the crime and the wrongs that he has done. Adequate punishment is due to the community to which the individual belongs. The community must be made to realize that the kind of thing which this member

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of it has done is not to be tolerated in that community, and there is no way in which that can be made plain except by the way of adequate punishment. But I think we can go further—indeed the concluding and most impressive words of the noble Viscount on the Woolsack make this plain—and say that adequate punishment of such criminals is due to civilization itself, to the wider community of mankind. We should be surely turning our backs upon the very principles for which we have engaged on this desperate struggle, the maintenance of mercy and justice, if this principle of retribution were to find no place, and no prominent place, in the objects with which the contest is being carried on. I think these principles are perfectly clear, but it is also important that they should be remembered.
There are many excellent people in this country who have now come to regard punishment as if it were merely corrective and reformative, whereas this other aspect of it cannot, without damage to the community, be forgotten; and if that be true at all, it is particularly true at this present time, and in view of these outrages and atrocities about which, at this hour and in any case, I car not allow myself to speak. If all that is true, and if everything that has been urged about retribution is true and just, then. I venture to press the enormous importance of seeing that it is not all to vanish in talk, but that means are being taken to see how these principles can be effectively applied. That is really the importance, if I may say so, of the announcement which the noble and learned Lord Chancellor has made this afternoon. It comes in a most timely way. It would be disastrous to encourage the notion to prevail, to plead all that is said by the Prime Minister and others about justice and retribution in this matter, unless His Majesty's Government and the other Allied Nations see how these just words can be effectively carried out.
I have nothing more to say. I will not speak for a moment—it would indeed be presumptuous for me to do so—on the question of procedure. I would only venture to observe—I am sure it is involved in all the Lord Chancellor has said, and in what the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, said—that we should be very careful to see that in any attempt to make this matter of retribution part of our great cause of vindicating the principles of jus-
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tice throughout the world we take especial pains, sometimes against our own instincts, to see that the processes by which that is done shall themselves be clear illustrations of the sanctity of law. I hope your Lordships will forgive this intrusion, but I felt that I should bring forward one aspect of the matter which it is worth while to keep before our minds.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, it falls to me to make a few concluding observations. First of all I should like to refer to the two matters on which the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has made some interesting statements of great public importance: firstly, the matter of what he calls the recording of evidence; and secondly, the obtaining of the presence of the criminals before the Court which is going to try them. I hope that nobody supposed that in the speech I made I had in any way forgotten those facts. I thought they were fairly obvious, but I must say I am exceedingly glad to bear that something is now going to be done to take steps to obtain and record what may be called the evidence of people in reference to the commission or various crimes. I do not myself like to call it their evidence because I do not think it would be fair to the criminal that statements of an ex parte kind should be regarded as evidence.
In the last war Germany agreed to accept the system of taking evidence at Bow Street in the presence of the accused or his representative, with liberty to cross-examine, as real evidence, and that I mink will have to be done to a very large extent in the present case. But of course it is most desirable that the names of the criminals should be preserved. I thought there would be no very great difficulty in obtaining them in a great number of cases, because of the publicity that has been given to the matter in the Press, but it is very much better that they should be obtained by a Commission of the United Nations for the investigation of these particular matters. I thoroughly and warmly approve, if I may do so, that step having been taken by this country with the concurrence of the United States and the approval of some other nations.
I always say what I think, whether it is popular or not, and therefore I must frankly state that I am rendered extremely uneasy by the observation which

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fell from my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack with regard to the Armistice being made conditional on the handing over of criminals. I do not quite know what that means. If it only means that there is to be a clause in the Armistice to say that war criminals—not naming them—must be handed over at the request of the Allied and Associated Powers, I see no objection to it at all, but as I understand the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, it referred to the handing over of named criminals, the names of whom had been ascertained by the Commission for the investigation and punishment of war crimes. If that is so, I hope that such a statement is to be taken with a great many qualifications which have not yet been stated in your Lordships' House.
Take the Armistice at the end of the last war. Your Lordships will all know the facts, some personally and some will have read of them in histories of the war. Is it conceivable that when the German Generals came before the French and the English Generals, Marshal Foch and Lord Haig, with a suggestion for an immediate Armistice, the French and the English Generals could have said, or would have been well advised if they had been in a position to say: "We require the handing over of 100 criminals who have committed desperate war crimes. Until then fighting must continue." People were being killed by the thousand every week then, although the Germans were on the run. Those who have read accounts of the last war and histories stating the views of such persons as the present Prime Minister, Lord Haig and a number of other people, know perfectly well that if the war had continued, even though the Germans were being driven back into their own country over many miles of territory, tens of thousands of lives would have been lost in the course of a very few weeks by continued attacks on the retreating Germans. Is it conceivable that the Generals in charge, who, after all, are the people who are engaged in an Armistice, are not to consent to an Armistice unless, as if is said, the criminals are handed over''
Suppose there are only, as in the last war, 896 known criminals. Are the Generals to say that until so many of these 896 criminals are handed over there must be no Armistice? It is certain that before the Generals come with such a re-
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quest as that many of these criminals will already have left Germany and it will be impossible for the Germans, even if they are brought to their knees to the same extent as in the last war, to hand over these criminals. Some of them they might hand over, but I doubt very much if it would be possible for them to hand over the majority.
Nor does the difficulty end there. There are a number of Powers all engaged in fighting the Germans. Is it to be supposed that there will be only one Armistice? There was not in the last war and I do not know why there should be now. The Soviet Republic, in all probability, will have an Armistice of its own. Italy, I should think, quite likely will have consented to give up fighting long before the Germans are brought to their knees. There may be, for all I know, three or four or even more Armistices at the close of the war. To which of them does this condition apply? I hope I am not being unreasonable. I am only putting before your Lordships difficulties which will have to be met, as it seems to me, before we can put any precise meaning on the suggested conditions. I am not asking for these conditions to be stated now, but I do beg the Government not to pledge themselves to a condition which may result, I do not know when—it may be a year or several years hence—in further loss of life and further misery for thousands of people. That is all I shall say on that point.
With regard to the general matter of the debate I find myself in hearty agreement with the view on the general question so eloquently expressed by my noble and learned friend. If his statement is to be taken to represent the views of the Government as a whole we may be certain that everything possible will be done to bring the criminals to justice. There is one thing, however, I will say, and that is I do not quite understand his statement showing something of a leaning towards trial by Military Courts, a matter on which my noble friend the Marquess of Crewe made some pertinent observations. It is necessary to be quite clear as to what you mean in these matters. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack says international lawyers do not in any way disapprove of Generals in the field, who have managed to get hold of persons who have committed breaches of the laws of war, executing justice upon those

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criminals. I think that is very true; but what does it mean? There are no such things as laws of war in the sense of perfectly definite laws binding upon the nationals who are engaged in the fighting. Such laws mean no more than what civilized nations have agreed to be the methods by which they will conduct war. Then what do you mean by the Military Court having power to convict people who have committed breaches of these so-called laws? What this means is surely that there can be hearing and trial and conviction—with execution of sentence to follow—of people who have done these things.
Under Martial Law, which is not, according to a lawyer's idea, law at all, the General in the field is not bound by any regular procedure or regular rules of evidence in trying a person under these conditions, any more than he is bound by general rules of that sort if he catches a spy. Martial Law has got to be supplemented, if it is going to be applied in the case of criminals such as those with whom we are dealing, by definite law authorizing certain procedure, and conviction of people for certain offences. I admit that I do not think the Generals of the British Army would be very glad to be concerned with the trial of hundreds of Germans, who have been caught somehow or handed over under an Armistice or afterwards, and to try them in cases which must take many weeks and months to try, and, I suppose, to try them in the occupied country at the date of the Armistice or up to the time of the declaration of peace. I confess that I have the greatest difficulty in seeing how it can be done.
I would add that, though we have no rules for Martial Law in this country, Continental nations have got such rules, and I am informed by the experts—for I have investigated this question as best I can—that these laws differ in almost every country on the Continent. Therefore there would be German criminals tried, it may be by English, by American, by Russian, by Polish, or by Czecho-Slovakian military officers all of whom have a different idea as to the law which is applicable in such a case. The other countries have a written law—which we have not—applicable to these matters, but unfortunately the laws of the different countries are different. You cannot get on, therefore, without coming to a definite
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agreement with these people to set up tribunals with perfectly definite rules for their administration and for the punishment of the people to whom I have referred. Subject to that, I only repeat once more how much I welcome the step—which I regard as a preliminary step—of establishing a United Nations Commission for the investigation of these matters, and how much, also, I particularly welcome the tone in which the noble and learned Lord Chancellor, on behalf of the Government, has approached this subject. I need hardly say that I do not wish for anything more now than leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

PAY OF THE FORCES.
LORD KEMSLEY LORD KEMSLEY rose to call attention to the pay of the Armed Forces of the Crown and to ask His Majesty's Government to appoint a Committee to prepare before demobilization new rates of pay that will provide adequately for the needs of officers and men, including family allowances; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in the Motion which I now submit for your Lordships' consideration I do not propose any immediate increase in the rates of pay for the Fighting Services. That is not because I approve the changes announced by the Government on September 10. The small and partial advances then made in pay and allowances were in my view grossly inadequate. I hope they will soon be improved to a level approaching civilian earnings. Having elsewhere developed the case for juster treatment of the Forces, I should fall short of my duty as a member of this House if I did not, in my place here, ask the Government to give their earliest attention to this matter. If I concern myself with the long-term aspect of Service conditions it is because it appears to me to have been overlooked. So far as rates of pay, both actual and suggested, are concerned, there is at least this to be said on the credit side: that the question has been forced into the arena of open discussion, where, under pressure of public opinion, it will remain until it is satisfactorily settled.
What will be the position of the Services after the war? In the first place, the men will no longer be under the same dominating incentive of patriotism that

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inspires them while their country is in danger. In that respect the Services and the civilians will be at once on absolutely the same footing. The Service man—unless a sufficient inducement is offered to him to stay on—will want to revert to civil life with the utmost speed; and who would blame him? I take it that we would all agree that when the fighting is over it will be necessary to maintain a larger Navy, Army and Air Force than we had before the war. We shall also have the responsibility, together with our Allies, of occupying and policing Europe, it may be for many years. We shall not be able to escape it. Hundreds of thousands of men will be required for that purpose. It can be said of these men that they have answered the call of country. They risk their whole future, even life itself. They do this because the nation is in danger, not because they want an Army career. Many of them go straight from school, and the question of their careers is delayed indefinitely, it may be for years. During this period they will be separated from home and family with all that this means at their age.
Though we demand that they shall remain in the Services, do we propose to tell them that we shall give them no fitting recompense for the sacrifices they will have to make? Or shall we tell them, as I think we ought, that they will enjoy equality of treatment, and equality of reward with those who have been fortunate enough to have been demobilized? Shall we, in short, offer them a career on attractive terms, or have conscript Services labouring under a profound and legitimate grievance? Officers are concerned no less than men. The old tradition that they should supplement pay from private means is becoming obsolete. Few will be able to do it. We should be ill-advised to forget what happened in 1918. The Armistice then came on us very suddenly. It may come just as suddenly in this war. It came so suddenly in the last war that the process of demobilization rapidly degenerated into demoralization. The transition from a war to a peace economy was so abrupt, complicated and unorganized that it was years—harsh, unhappy years—before we recovered from the confusion.
How can we prevent a repetition of what happened in 1918? By taking thought for the morrow, or for the day
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after the morrow; that is, by setting up and perfecting our machinery of demobilization well in advance of its being required. That will deal with the men who can be spared from the Services. In regard to those who cannot be spared, other and different measures must, of course, be adopted. To begin with, their pay must be raised not by a trifling and niggardly increment but very appreciably, by which I mean that it should be doubled, if not trebled. It must be raised so that both officers and men will not feel that they are being denied a fair deal. It must be raised so that they can maintain a decent standard of living for themselves and for their families, and also have a margin left over for saving. Educational facilities must be provided which will fit all ranks, when they ultimately return to civil life, to compete on equal terms with civilians in the labour market. These facilities will possess the additional advantage of relieving the tedium which is bound at intervals to overtake Forces who are occupying a foreign country. Lastly, the studies on which a man is engaged should be allowed, on his return to civil life, to count as heavily in his favour as equivalent studies at a university.
We should make Service conditions such that our Navy, Army, and Air Force will fulfil what Napoleon said of his Army, that they shall be a career open to talents, a career that will attract the talented. Those talents should be acknowledged in tangible fashion. We should on all counts abolish the practice of under-paying our men in uniform. Our Services are worthy of the best that we can give them. They must have, before the fighting ends, the guarantee of an assured and dignified future. It would be perilous folly to defer it until the fifty-ninth minute of the eleventh hour, and vague promises would be worse than useless. A definite, clear-cut scheme must be drawn up and adopted, so that the country can point to it and say: "That is what awaits you." It is important that all ranks should know as soon as possible that it will await them. If that be done, there need be no chaotic rush to get back to civil life when the fighting ends. Instead, there will be three contented Services, with pride in themselves and in the duty which they are discharging on behalf of their country. And removed for good will be the bitter-

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ness engendered by the knowledge that American and Dominion troops, who will certainly be called on to share in the policing of Europe, are much better treated than the British.
My argument rests on considerations of expediency and justice alike. I have tried to show how expedient it is, in relation to the Services, that we should get ready for the peace here and now. It is unnecessary to emphasize the justice of the course which I have ventured to advocate. When expediency and justice join hands they are, or should be, irresistible in moving us to action. I have raised this question because, as far as I know, no Committee has been appointed to deal with the points which I have made, and with many others that are relevant. The notion that suitable personnel for such a Committee cannot be found in war-time is, I am sure, baseless. There must be a number of men of affairs fully competent to constitute such a body, who are free at this moment to undertake the task. If the Government agree that the Armed Forces merit the better conditions for which I ask, there need be no difficulty in working out the details and having a scheme ready before demobilization. I may be told that I am looking too far ahead. I do not agree. It is impossible to look too far ahead in a matter so vital as this. If in peace-time it is a sound principle to be always prepared for war, so in war it is just as sound a principle to be always prepared for peace. So often in the past we have been criticized for being too late; let us make an exception in this case and be on time. I beg to move.
LORD CHATFIELD: My Lords, as the hour is late and we have but a small assembly, I shall be as brief as I can in supporting the Motion of my noble friend Lord Kemsley. As a member of the Fighting Services, I am very happy that he has addressed your Lordships for the first time on the subject which he has chosen to-day, and I am sure that the thoughtful and clearly-expressed speech which he has made is one to which we have listened with great interest, and one of much value. We hope that he will not again remain so long silent, but will continue to help us in our debates here as well as he helps the country in many other ways.
As one who is on the active list of the Navy, it may seem somewhat improper
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that I should even venture to speak about emoluments and conditions of service which may in some most remote way, and theoretically, affect myself; but I wish to speak briefly on certain principles which lie behind the Motion moved by the noble Lord. We must all remember—and it is right that this should be stated—that those who serve the State have certain great advantages over those who are in ordinary employment. They have the great advantage that they have the State behind them, and that their conditions of service, and their salaries and pensions, are guaranteed by an authority which is the most powerful which there can be to give effect to promises which are made. That advantage which the officers and men in the Fighting Services enjoy is, however, accompanied by certain disadvantages, which may be proper and necessary, but which are disadvantageous as compared with the conditions of those who are not serving the State. The State lays down the conditions for the Fighting Services by Acts of Parliament, and Parliament has therefore a special responsibility to look after the Services.
The Services have no trade unions, and are not supposed to press for the alteration or improvement of their own conditions of service. When great fluctuations occur in the national life, due to such causes as an alteration in the value of money or a change in the cost of living, it may be that such influences act over a long period before any remembrance takes place in Parliament that its own servants are suffering from these changed conditions; whereas, if these changed conditions affect those who are not State servants, we may be quite sure that the powerful political organizations which have been built up, and well built up, to look after the interests of the ordinary individual, will step in and make the necessary disturbance in Parliament, and so affect the public mind that the disadvantages from which those whom they seek to protect are suffering will be corrected as soon as possible.
The noble Lord instanced the period at the end of the last war when the Services were grossly neglected. It is not useful to say much about that time, because we may be thankful that in the last two or three years the State has had far more regard to the conditions of its servants. But we must remember that we had an occasion then—and it may recur, because

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democratic government is very variable in its moods—when, for the whole four years of the war, the fighting man was kept on the same conditions of pay and pension as he had had for many generations, whereas the value of money and the cost of living had so changed that the pay of everybody else had been enormously increased. How did he get that put right? Not by the spontaneous passing of an Act of Parliament or by the act of Ministers: it was only done by pressure by the Commanders-in-Chief of the Services themselves. Unfortunately that was the only means. And it was not until after the Armistice, when everybody was thinking of himself and of other things, that Committees were set up, by pressure from the Services, concerned about the mentality and welfare of their men, to examine the conditions of service afresh. Seven or eight months elapsed after the Armistice, before one penny was added to the pay of the fighting men, so that during the whole of that long time the State forgot and neglected its duty. If that has happened once it may very well happen again.
Of course we must remember that it is difficult to look ahead. As the noble Lord has said, few can be accused of trying to look too far ahead, but the noble Lord does not look too far ahead because what he says is "Let us set up before demobilization a Committee to inquire into these important matters." We must remember that it is very difficult to foresee where we shall be even then. We do not know whether the war is going to last for two or three or for ten years or longer—nobody knows unless he can see into the German mind, which none of us is able to do with any accuracy. Therefore we cannot see what will be the state of the world when the moment comes when this Committee is set up. We cannot tell even what forces will be required to keep order and maintain the peace which we hope we shall have imposed upon those who have committeed the crimes, as we have heard this afternoon. We cannot tell how strong our Forces will have to be, what military forces will be keeping order in Europe, and what naval and air forces will be keeping order all over the world.
Equally, we cannot see what will be our own financial condition after the war. After all, many financial advantages of the Empire as we have known it may be
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lost to us permanently, because every nation fighting with us will expect to have its own share of the world, and a bit better share than it had before. Although we all hope for a better world and we talk about our new life in this country, are we sure we shall have the means to satisfy the ambitions even of the humblest of those who are hoping that we have now nearly reached the eleventh hour of the future millennium? We certainly shall get a better world, because the spirit of the world will, I believe, be better. Certainly the spirit of this country will be better. Even if we lose the unity we have now, we are all determined that there are certain things that we are going to put right. But although it may be a better world, it may be a poorer world.
Therefore we cannot see far enough ahead now to know to what extent the noble Lord's hopes of gradually improving the conditions of service will be realized. But though we cannot foresee that, what we can do is to make up our minds that Parliament this time is not going to forget its duty to its fighting men when the war is over. It is exactly the same principle as some of us have urged with regard to the Merchant Navy. The sailor and the fighting man are always apt to be forgotten when war is over, and when the period of grab starts and we all think of ourselves, and the most powerful politically organized body is apt to get the most in a democratic country. Those who talk the loudest and the most eloquently will then gain for those whom they represent more than will be gained for those who by law are more or less unable to express themselves—I mean the servants of the State, and particularly the Fighting Services. Therefore I welcome very heartily this proposal. We have not the same power in this House over these things as has another place, but we have our responsibilities and we have our duty of honour to look after the State's servants and especially those who are fighting for it. We cannot do better than call the attention of the Government to the feeling that some steps should be taken at the proper moment, and endeavour to get some assurance from them that they have that matter in mind, in order to give our fighting men and their families ground for believing that this time at any rate Parliament will honour its debt to them.
VISCOUNT WIMBORNE: My Lords, while strongly supporting the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Kemsley, that there should be a Committee appointed to inquire into rates of pay before demobilization. I rather wish to call your Lordships' attention to the present situation. After all, demobilization seems a long way off to-day, and it is of the inadequate pay of the Army, and particularly of the junior officer, that I wish to speak this afternoon. I feel very strongly that, instead of the piecemeal concessions made from time to time in response to representations in Parliament and in the Press, the whole question should have been reviewed afresh. To those who may say that this formidable task cannot be undertaken in war-time, I would say that it is in time of war, when so many thousands are serving with the Armed Forces of the Crown, that this subject should be tackled.
No one can say that the ordinary private soldier is over-paid. The warrant officer, the senior sergeant, the man in receipt of tradesman's pay, is not too badly off; but I have in mind the recruit of a certain age who joins, or is forced to join, who probably leaves a good civilian job, is almost certainly married, and who in the first year of his service, after he has paid his allotment, only gets 2s. 6d. a day. As many of them make an extra allotment of another 6d., they eventually draw over the pay-table 2s. a day. When one considers the cost in these days of the simplest relaxations—a glass of beer, a packet of cigarettes, a visit to the cinema—one realizes that 2s., or at most 2s. 6d., a day is very little. What one must not forget is this, that the vast majority of men serving, at any rate in the Army, are serving in this country. They are living alongside the civilians. They have friends who have got jobs in civilian life, and they see when they go home on leave—and this is what affects them most—that the dependants of these people in civilian life are better off and have a higher standard of living than their own families. One point which to my mind proves that the private soldier is not well enough off is the difficulty experienced in getting soldiers to take advantage of the Army Savings Scheme. The will to save is there, but very often the money is not.
When we come to the position of the junior officer the faults of the present
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system are most glaring. An officer gets very little out of the Government except his accommodation, his equipment, and his rations. He does not get even as much rations as the private soldier, because for some curious reason he is not allowed the 2½d. a day which is given to each private soldier in order to buy things from the N.A.A.F.I. He has to pay for everything he buys. The reason for this is the old-fashioned idea that every officer is a man of private means. Very few officers to-day have private means. A great many of them, especially those who were Territorials before the war and have joined up since, have private liabilities which they find it difficult to discharge, having in so many cases exchanged good civilian employment for the very meagre pay they enjoy to-day. There has been quite recently a concession. The period before promotion from second lieutenant to lieutenant has been reduced to six months, always provided the commanding officer approves the promotion. But what does this concession mean? An officer gets after six months 13s. a day—£237 a year—and a single man pays £36 income tax on that. Therefore he actually gets about 11s a day. I do not think it is sufficiently realized what qualifications are necessary for an efficient junior officer in these days, especially in mechanized units. In a tank regiment, for instance, a junior officer, a troop leader, has to be an expert on wireless, an expert on gunnery, and a very competent mechanical engineer. And what does he get for that? Thirteen shillings a day. I do not think you can call that a living wage, and it ought to be increased.
Then on promotion to captain he goes up by another 3s. 6d. to 16s. 6d. a day. Promotion to captain, certainly in the infantry, carries with it very often the responsibility of the command of a company. It is really only when he attains the rank of major that the remuneration becomes slightly less modest; but then the incidence of taxation begins to tell. I need hardly remind your Lordships of the importance of a good adjutant to any unit, or call attention to the fact that obviously since the war his work and responsibility have increased enormously. Before the war, and up to July, 1940, the extra pay granted to an adjutant was 5s. a day. On July 1 on that year it was reduced to 3s. One would have thought

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that if 5s. a day was a reasonable extra payment to an adjutant before the war, his remuneration during the war, instead of being decreased, should be increased. It is a small point—though not a small point to hundreds of very hard-worked officers all over the country—but I bring it up because it illustrates the attitude of mind of those responsible for these matters.
Whatever may be decided with regard to pay, there is one point which I wish to bring to your Lordships' attention, because it reacts not only financially but also generally on the keenness and efficiency of the Army, and that is the system of temporary rank. As I think is well known, promotion above the rank of lieutenant since the war is acting for twenty-one days and becomes temporary after three months. Nothing more happens until an officer is promoted further. If, shall we say, a major is posted to another unit, and that unit has no vacancy for a major, he reverts to the rank and pay of captain. Worse still, if he is in hospital for more than twenty-one days, he reverts automatically, and I believe that even if he is wounded in battle he retains his acting rank for only ninety-one days. Yet the difference in pay between captain and major is 12s. a day. In some cases it can affect his dependants. If an officer has elected to remain on the old rate of family allowances—and in some cases it paid him if he retained his temporary rank—his dependants might suffer if his pay is reduced.
There is a lot to be said for a period of probation before promotion is confirmed, but there is nothing to be said for an indefinite period of probation. There are instances of officers who have returned from the Middle East and have had to revert—rather a poor recompense for service in face of the enemy. There are examples of lieutenant-colonels who have commanded regiments for two years and more, with complete satisfaction to their superior officers, but who still retain acting rank. If this system continues, and they are not promoted—not many are promoted above the rank of colonel—they may be demobilized with the pension or gratuity of major. That cannot be fair. I should have thought that after a period of, say, twelve months, if an officer is not satisfactory, other employment could be found for him. If he is satisfactory, surely
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he ought to be able to retain the rank and the emoluments attaching to it which he has proved himself capable of earning.
I suggest that the whole system of pay and allowances needs complete overhaul. Since the war there have been sops. The basic pay of the soldier has been increased bit by bit; the period of promotion from second lieutenant to lieutenant has, as I have said, been shortened; family allowances have been adjusted; but none of these things has really given satisfaction. There has not been a fair and square face up to the whole problem. I submit that all basic rates of pay should be increased so as to bring them into line with conditions of civilian employment and the cost of living. I would like to put before the House two suggestions for what they are worth. One is that it might be possible in the case of officers to remunerate, junior officers anyhow, rather on the same basis as the tradesman's rates of pay in the ranks—that is to say, if an officer undergoes a course of instruction and obtains a certain standard, he would thereby be entitled to extra pay. I do not know if that would work, but I throw it out as a suggestion. My other suggestion is that there should be an increase of pay all round, a proportion of which might be retained as a post-war nest egg. That I think might be advantageous both to the Treasury and to the individual.
What is wanted with regard to pay is something generous and imaginative; and that, coupled with a period of limitation to the holding of temporary rank, would, I think, go a long way to making the Army, in this country at any rate, a happy and contented Force. It is difficult, perhaps impossible, to assess in terms of money the value of a soldier or of any member of the Fighting Forces who is prepared to give his life for his country, but I maintain that it is not impossible to assess what he should be paid in order that he and his dependants can achieve a reasonable and a fair standard of living. I hope that the noble Lord who replies to this debate will be able to assure the House that something along these lines may be done.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, it falls to my lot to be the first to speak after the noble Viscount, Lord Wimborne, has addressed your Lordships for the first time. I myself have only very recently gone through the same ordeal, an ordeal

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which is only tempered by your Lordships' courtesy, and I am sure that the noble Viscount would agree with me that what one specially wishes to be congratulated upon on sitting down is upon having got through the ordeal rather than upon the speech itself that one has made. But in this case I am certainly not going to pay an empty compliment when I say the speech to which we have just listened was a real contribution to the debate, and especially to our ideas upon the subject which is under discussion. The Press and other organs have recently been kind enough to say many kind things about the debates in your Lordships' House. The speech of the noble Viscount was, I am sure, upon a plane that merits those encomiums which have been paid to us. I can only say I regret that it has not fallen to someone who has been a member of your Lordships' House longer than I and is more familiar with the customs, to pay the customary tribute to the first speech of the noble Viscount.
I would like myself warmly to support the Motion which has been brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Kemsley. If it would serve no other purpose it has certainly brought a most interesting and in some ways remarkable speech from the noble Lord, Lord Chatfield. The noble Lord, Lord Kemsley, has shown persistently a quality known as prevision, a quality not only of great value in the Press world, but a quality which is very essential in affairs of State in order to avert the troubles which may come upon us. Indeed I think we had a very unhappy experience in regard to the pay of the Navy owing to a failure to exert that quality of prevision. The noble Lord has proved himself a good friend of the Service man, and has shown himself possessed of great understanding of the problems of the Service man. He has not only done that, but I feel he has also rendered a great service to the nation in calling attention to this matter, as indeed he already has in the matter of fuel saving.
It is indeed most essential, in view not merely of the possibility but the probability of Armies of Occupation having to remain in conquered territory for a very long time, that the pay of the Armed Forces should be settled upon an equitable basis so that those who have to be retained in those Armies of Occupation shall not find themselves at a disadvantage
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possibly compared with those of their comrades who may find themselves released and not compelled to remain part of those Armies. This is essential not only from the point of view of those Armies of Occupation, but essential to secure the eventual retention in the Armed Forces, and the future recruitment of officers and men for the Forces, of the type of men we hope to attract into the Armed Forces and retain in them after the war. We must give proper rates of pay to these men, but I was so glad to hear the noble Lord stress not only this question of proper rates of pay but also such a question as education amongst these men, which I myself regard as of primary importance.
To me the essential point in this matter is that in future we should bring men of the Armed Forces within what I would describe as the flow and the main stream of the current of our national life. These Service men in the future must no longer be regarded as men belonging to a race apart, as men who are segregated from the whole body of national life. The Service man is a part of our national life, he is not one section or one compartment of it. He is part of the whole main stream of our national life, and he is performing just as essential a part in that national life as does the miner or the farm worker or the merchant seaman, about whom, quite rightly, we hear so much at the present moment. In particular the allowances for his family and his dependants must be brought into line with the pay of men who are engaged in normal civilian occupations, so that the Service man's wife, his family and his dependants may enjoy exactly the same standard of living as we think right and proper for the family and dependants of the civilian worker. On this account I welcome the noble Lord's Motion and I hope it will secure the support of the Government.
Although, of course, I have no right to speak for my Party I feel quite sure that my Party would most gladly participate in the work of such a Committee as the noble Lord envisages. Whatever the conditions may be after the war—in regard to which the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Chatfield, uttered what I think is a most wise and valuable caution—I believe the work of such a Committee would be most valuable. Certainly there would be no difficulty in finding the proper personnel to constitute such a Committee. I am certain that it is not looking too far

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ahead to set up such a Committee, and I would say in conclusion that the country will never get a better bargain than it will by treating the men in the Armed Forces well and properly. The country will certainly get full value for such treatment.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, I think it will be agreed that for the second time to-day we have had a most interesting series of speeches. I would like to reiterate what has already been said in welcome of the maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Kemsley, and in praise of his felicity of phrasing and the way in which he made his views so very plain to your Lordships' House. I would also like to say how much I appreciated the maiden speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Wimborne. I hope he will forgive me if I do not dwell at any length upon his speech because I was quite unaware that he was going to enlarge upon the present rates of pay and allowances. On that there have been recently considerable debates in another place and it is a subject upon which I am not authorized to touch at the present time. I would like to say that rarely have I heard a speech from a serving officer which more clearly expressed the feelings which he thought existed in the Forces, and I will certainly bring his speech to the attention of those who are always living with this problem and ask them to give it most favourable consideration.
I would only say one further word on that subject. It was suggested that improved rates of pay and allowances had been made in rather a piecemeal fashion. That, however, has been rather forced upon us as a result of the increased cost of living and the fact that organized workers outside had secured greater emoluments. If civilian status in the matter of pay had been improved I think it was up to us to look into the matter again, even though it might appear in the nature of a sop. Of course there is a temptation to anyone like myself to go all-out for the highest possible rate of pay. In fact, when I listened to the speech of my noble friend Lord Winster, I asked myself "Is this a dictaphone record of past speeches by a former member for a South of England constituency, or is it hopeful evidence of the unity of
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all Parties upon this great question of the Services as a career?" The fact is that it is our bounden duty as members of Parliament, in considering this subject, to realize that if you take the combined income of all the Services and other emoluments as a result of the changes which have been made, it does amount to an immense figure.
I hope my noble friend will forgive me for this interlude and I will now turn to his specific Motion. I read the Motion of the noble Lord as saying that the present rates of pay of the three Services of the Crown will not be suitable for those Services as reconstituted after the war, and that for this reason it is desirable that His Majesty's Government should work out before the period of demobilization new rates of pay and family allowances which will be adequate. I do not wish to question my noble friend's general thesis that it will be necessary for all three Services to examine their positions before demobilization, and make plans which will cover the size of their respective forces in the period immediately following the cessation of hostilities and thereafter. It will, I think, be a natural corollary of this consideration to examine whether the current rates of pay and allowances and the general conditions of service are calculated to be a fair reward on the one hand and an added stimulus to recruiting on the other, but it seems to me that the time for undertaking this task is not yet. We do not know whether service after the war will be compulsory or voluntary or a combination of the two. We cannot gauge what our overseas commitments may be, and, above all, it is impossible for us to foretell what shape the new world will take and to what extent armed forces will form a part of it. So far, therefore, as concerns the Motion which is on the Paper, I can only agree with my noble friend that the time will come when these problems must be examined, and that meanwhile we should carefully collate all evidence which may provide useful guidance.
In his speech my noble friend touched on one or two very different points. He made reference to the demobilization of the Army after the last war. That is a subject which some of my generation—I am not suggesting he has reached my generation—have very much at heart. He-expressed the hope that some of the mistakes we made then will not be repeated this time. As to that, I think your Lord

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ships will be aware that we are already examining, and have been examining for the past two years, the hundred and one problems which are bound up with this immense question of demobilization. It is a most difficult subject. He mentioned, and I think my noble friend Lord Winster said that he welcomed that mention, educational facilities in the Army. This is a subject which does come within my purview. In addition to having done much work on the problem of demobilization I am glad to say that we are giving special attention to the educational side. In passing I may mention that this morning I spent two and a half hours presiding over a body which is giving consideration to this vital subject. So far as we can anticipate circumstances we are endeavouring to have the whole demobilization plan cut and dried, so that whenever the end of the war comes it will not take us by surprise. Our work has reached an advanced stage of development and although the final decision must be taken by the Government of the day when that great event happens and we celebrate the victory—or before that—I am confident that the factors upon which they must base their decisions will have been worked out with very great completeness, and certainly as completely as it is possible to work them out at the present time.
The noble Lord went on to say that the pay of men in the Services must be considerably increased because of the counter attractions of industrial life and industrial wages. If I understood him correctly, he urged that the Services should, generally, be made to offer a better career; something more permanent and more stable than we have known in the past. I hope that he will believe me when I say that I yield to no man in my admiration for the three Fighting Services of the country. The small Regular Forces upon which we based our expansion were, I think it has now been proved, of the highest degree of efficiency, and the regular element in all three Services has demonstrated that efficiency by the smoothness with which we have passed from the machinery of peace to that of war, and the expansion which has been carried out. It is certainly my personal desire that the Navy, Army and Air Force shall, after this war, be in a position, if I may paraphrase what has been said, to select the men they want for the Services instead of having to take anyone they could get, which was unfortunately
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the case with the Army for a very long period before this war.
But quite apart from the question of compulsory service, upon which I am unable to give any information at this time, I think it would be improper for me to say now that the rates of pay and allowances at present current in the Services must necessarily be increased for the post-war Services. We do not know, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Chat-field, has said, what the standard of living and what the economic position of these islands will be after the war. We do not know what will be the state of the world, whether it will be convulsed or calm. And in the face of so many unpredictable factors I think your Lordships will realize that it is quite impossible for me to go any further to-day. But I would ask my noble friend to believe me when I say that his general contention has my very warmest support, and I would like him to realize that we do appreciate the great interest which has been taken in this subject. We realize how very near to his heart are the interests of the Service men in many directions. We are grateful to him for having raised this subject and having added to the interest of the whole community in it, as I hope has been done by this debate. On behalf of my colleagues and myself I may say that we are very glad indeed to have had such-manifestations of good will and helpful spirit as have been apparent in the debate which has taken place to-day.
LORD KEMSLEY: My Lords, if I have any regret at all it is only that this Motion came on at so late an hour on account of such an important Motion preceding it. At the same time, I feel that the contributions which have been made to the debate will have their effect. I am only sorry that there was not a full House to hear them. I am interested to learn from the noble Lord, who represents the Government, that the Government are really doing everything or almost everything that I have asked, and I can only say that I feel sure that, as the result of remarks made to-day, we shall see evidence, in the very near future, that all these causes have not been neglected. In the circumstances I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned.