Sitting of 23 June 1942

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  PRINCESS ELIZABETH OF YORK HOSPITAL FOR CHILDREN AND QUEEN'S HOSPITAL FOR CHILDREN (AMALGAMATION ETC.) BILL [Lords].
  Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  PEMBROKESHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords].
  As Amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (CAERNARVON) BILL.
  Read the Third time, and passed.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (MOLD GAS AND WATER) BILL.
  Read the Third time, and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  SOUTHERN RHODESIA (COMPULSORY NATIVE LABOUR).
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the Government of Southern Rhodesia have obtained powers to introduce a measure of compulsory labour of such indigenous Africans as may be required to meet any serious shortages of labour; whether such forced labour will operate in private industry; and whether any safeguards have been suggested?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Emrys-Evans): A Bill has been passed by the Southern Rhodesia Legislative Assembly empowering the Government to call up natives between the ages of 19 and 45 for service as labourers for national purposes. The Bill includes carefully framed safeguards
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  which are largely based upon the recent Kenya regulations. No native will be required to work for longer than six months at a time, and he will be paid not less than the ruling current wages for the class of work which he is required to perform. Natives so called up will be regarded as in the employment of the Government, and, if their services are required for work at farms or mines, they will be placed under the supervision of officers appointed by the Government for the purpose. The operation of the Bill is restricted to the period of the present war.
  Mr. Creech Jones: In view of the fact that this is discriminating legislation and that there are no adequate political checks for the black people in that Government, will it be insisted, before the scheme is operated, that satisfactory safeguards are imposed, particularly in regard to inspection and wage standards?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I think that the safeguards included are sufficient to meet the objection of the hon. Member.
  Sir John Mellor: Cannot the Government of Southern Rhodesia best determine this matter without our assistance?
  Mr. Stephen: Is compulsory labour being applied to the white people also?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    CLOTHES RATIONING.
    Miss Rathboneasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the work of bodies comprised in the National Association of Girls Training Corps is hampered by the refusal of any provision of additional coupons for purchasing uniforms, and also by the lack of any provision of free uniforms such as are granted to boys in the training units for the three Armed Services; and, in view of the importance of encouraging girls of all classes, and not only the well-to-do, to join these training units, will he, in consultation with the other relevant Government Departments, consider what can be done to improve the position in this respect?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): The uniforms of these

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    organisations are for the most part suitable for everyday wear. I could not, therefore, justify coupon-free supply.
    Miss Rathbone: Is my right hon. Friend aware that working-class clubs are finding it very difficult to provide their girls with even the smallest modicum of uniform, and will he consider whether something can be done?
    Mr. Dalton: I am afraid the supply position is such that all the tendency will have to be in the direction of the restriction rather than of the extension of coupon-free supplies. I am afraid the hon. Lady will find that it is really impossible to proceed along the line she suggests, but I shall be glad if she will discuss the matter with me.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Will there be any coupons with family allowances, and, if so, what use will they be?
    Mr. Dalton: That is not a matter for me.
    Mrs. Tateasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to make it possible for farm-workers to obtain clothing, particularly dungarees and boots, essential for their work, coupon-free, or, alternatively, to provide them with some additional clothing coupons?
    Mr. Dalton: I shall give full consideration to any claims for extra clothing coupons for farm workers put to me by the Trades Union Congress on behalf of the trade unions concerned. Farm workers, in addition to receiving the ordinary civilian ration, can obtain oilskins and milking overalls coupon-free against certificates issued by the County War Agricultural Executive Committee. Further, arrangements have been made, as I have already informed the House, to distribute a limited number of reconditioned battle-dress suits, coupon-free, to agricultural workers.
    Mrs. Tate: Will the President also give consideration to cases put forward by the National Farmers' Union?
    Mr. Dalton: Certainly, Sir. We find it convenient to canalise these applications, but if they come from another channel, I will consider them.
    Mr. Higgsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that no precaution has been taken to prevent industrial supplementary clothing coupons being transferred from one person to another; that they are being used for the purchase of all types of clothing; and will he make arrangements whereby they can only be used for the purpose for which they were originally intended?
    Mr. Dalton: There is no evidence that industrial supplementary clothing coupons are being improperly transferred on any considerable scale. These coupons are intended not only to enable workers to buy occupational clothing for themselves but also, in many cases, to compensate them for specially heavy wear and tear on their ordinary clothes.
    Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware that coupons are being issued in a loose form and that I have come across cases where they are being traded? Is that the right manner of using these coupons?
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir, it is not the right manner, and I shall be grateful if my hon. Friend will give me particulars, which I will then follow up. What I said was that I have no evidence that this is happening on any considerable scale.
    Mr. Higgs: Is not the right hon. Gentleman's reply inconsistent with the reply he gave to a previous Question?
    Mr. Dalton: I said I was not aware that loose coupons were being improperly used on any considerable scale, but if my hon. Friend can produce evidence that they are, I shall be glad to look into it.
    Mr. Thorne: If the coupons of a family are pooled, will that be breaking the law?
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir, it has always been made clear that within a family transfers are permissible.

    LOOSE COUPONS.
    Mr. Levyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether enforcement officers are authorised to entice traders to sell goods against loose coupons; whether it is contrary to regulation to offer, as well as to accept, loose coupons; and will, he instruct enforcement officers to stop this improper practice?
    Mr. Dalton: My enforcement officers, have strict instructions not to entice

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    traders to break the law. It is, in general, an offence to offer, as well as to accept, loose coupons. To ensure that retailers are complying with the law it is necessary for my officers, on occasions, to make test purchases, and, in appropriate cases, to prosecute if a contravention is discovered. In most cases, however, offences are dealt with by means of warnings.
    Mr. Levy: While agreeing to a great extent with what my right hon. Friend says, am I to understand that he approves of agents provocateurs? In order to obtain a conviction, do not his officers commit an offence by seducing other people to commit an offence?
    Mr. Dalton: If my hon. Friend understands that, he has not understood my answer. What I said was that I had given express instructions—which I do not think were really necessary, but for safety I have given them—that there is to be no enticement to break the law. At the same time, there must be certain means of securing that the law is kept and that black-market operations conducted on the basis of loose coupons are held in check.
    Mr. Levy: My right hon. Friend says that he has to take these means in order to check what he calls the black market, and does not that mean that his enforcement officers are committing an illegal offence in order to seduce shopkeepers also to commit an offence?
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir, that is not so. My officers when they act under my instructions are covered. That is in the Defence Regulations. Further than that, there is a sharp distinction, which I endeavoured to draw in my answer, between enticing people to break the law and testing whether they are prepared to obey the law.

    RETAIL TRADE COMMITTEE (REPORT).
    Captain Peter Macdonaldasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet received a reply from the chairman of the Retail Trade Committee as to when the final Report of this body may be expected; and what is its nature?
    Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir. I have now received the third Report of the Retail Trade Committee, and I am arranging for it to be published forthwith.

    SUMMER SALES.
    Mr. Bowlesasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any observations regarding the token summer sales announced by several West End stores; and whether these sales accord with the policy of his Department?
    Mr. Dalton: I strongly deprecate the holding of sales, whether token or otherwise, at the present time, and so, I am glad to say, do responsible persons in the trade. Such sales encourage the public to buy, irrespective of actual needs, and so discourage the practice of forethought and economy.
    Mr. Shinwell: If my right hon. Friend quite properly deprecates the holding of these sales, why does he not put a stop to them? Is hot that the obvious thing to do, or do the Government deprecate certain conduct and still allow it to go on?
    Mr. Dalton: If they reached an important magnitude, I should consider whether I should not take steps to put a stop to them. At the present moment the statement I have made to-day, together with certain representations that have been passing between me and the trade, will prevent their reaching any important size. I shall watch that.

    NOMINEE SHAREHOLDINGS.
    Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can yet make an announcement on the subject of nominee shareholders in newspaper, armament and similar public companies?
    Mr. Dalton: I have further considered the question of nominee shareholders in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. As indicated in my reply of 28th April to my hon. and gallant Friend, there already exist full powers under the Defence Regulations to compel disclosure to certain Departments of the beneficial ownership of shares held by nominees, where it is considered necessary or expedient to obtain the information in the interests of the public safety, the defence of the realm or the efficient prosecution of the war. It is also within the discretion of the Ministers concerned to publish the information thus obtained. To make any more general provision, such as the prohibition of nominee share-

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    holdings, would require amendment of the Companies Act, for which Parliamentary time is not available in present circumstances.
    Sir J. Lucas: Is the Minister aware of the widespread public concern at the evasion of the company law by this method?
    Mr. Dalton: It is a very complicated matter, and I have endeavoured to give it attention in consultation with the Home Secretary. If my hon. and gallant Friend has any particular suggestions on the matter, I shall be glad to have them.
    Mr. Bellenger: Will my right hon. Friend look at his own files, specially those relating to Debates that have taken place in this House, and he will find plenty of evidence that will be of considerable assistance to him?
    Mr. Dalton: We shall be glad to have assistance from anybody.

    ARTISTS' CANVAS.
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the President of the Board of Trade how it came about that artists are required to use their clothes coupons in respect of purchases of canvas for painting; and when this order is to be withdrawn?
    Mr. Dalton: The coupon-free sale of artists' canvas was allowed under a general licence, which lapsed on 1st June. It has already been announced that the canvas will continue to be exempted; the necessary new licence was issued last week.

    SUPPLY METHODS.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will take steps to see that efferts to preserve the normal channels of trade are not allowed to interfere with the most direct and cheapest methods of supply to the essential needs of the community?
    Mr. Dalton: I have been asked to reply. The answer is "Yes, Sir."

  FRENCH NORTH AFRICA (UNITED STATES SHIPMENTS).
  Mr. Molsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare why he has allowed the traffic of
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  foodships between the United States of America and North Africa to be resumed; and whether he will ensure that this importation will not release further exports for Metropolitan France?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare (Mr. Dingle Foot): The traffic between the United States and French North Africa has been suspended since the middle of February. But, as hon. Members will have seen in the Press, the United States Government have announced their intention to resume these shipments. The reasons for our concurrence in this policy remain the same as those stated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 2nd July of last year. As regards the last part of the Question, it is a condition of all such shipments that neither the goods themselves nor any similar goods shall be exported from North Africa.
  Mr. Molson: Is it not desirable that those French Colonies which have rallied to Free France should be entitled to receive imports, but those under Vichy should be blockaded?
  Mr. Foot: This Question does not refer to Free French Colonies, and I do not think it is possible to compare shipments to such Colonies with American shipments to North Africa. These shipments are for a special purpose.
  Mr. Shinwell: How does the Department ensure that these goods will not be released for Metropolitan France? What precautions are taken? What check is operating?
  Mr. Foot: The check is kept by United States consular officers in North Africa.
  Mr. Shinwell: But are His Majesty's Government satisfied that the check is effective?
  Mr. Foot: We have no reason to be dissatisfied with the way in which those officers carry out their duties.

  GENERAL ROMMEL (SUPPLIES).
  Mr. Molsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare, whether Rommel is receiving any supplies directly from Metropolitan France or from Tunisia; and whether French territorial waters are used by ships carrying supplies to him?
  Mr. Foot: My information is that Rommel is not now receiving supplies from Metropolitan France, but consignments to Libya of products originating in French North Africa still continue. In regard to the second part of the Question, I have reason to believe that Axis vessels have on more than one occasion used French territorial waters, but it would not be in the public interest to give details.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    OUT-STATION CLERKS (WAR OFFICE).
    Mr. William Brownasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will take steps to expedite a decision on the request made by the Civil Service Clerical Association to his Department, on 2nd March last, for negotiations concerning the pay of Grade IV clerks employed in the out-stations of the War Office who are promoted to higher posts?
    The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): It has been necessary to discuss the request made by the Civil Service Clerical Association with other Departments which would be affected by any decision in the matter referred to, but a reply will be sent very shortly.

    PUBLICITY OFFICERS (WAR OFFICE).
    Mr. Liddallasked the Secretary of State for War how many of the 356 Press or publicity officers and staff employed by the War Office are part-time employees and of military age; why this number is necessary; what is their cost; and whether he will consider taking steps to cut down the numbers and expenditure involved?
    Sir J. Grigg: The total of 356 to which my hon. Friend refers includes 91 members of the Auxiliary Territorial Service employed on demonstration and recruiting duties, 45 officers and 71 other ranks of the public relations service attached to Home Forces to facilitate publicity coverage of operations by the Field Army, and 28 officers and other ranks forming the publicity staff at the headquarters of Home Commands. The remainder include only 14 men of military age, whose annual cost is approximately £6,000. They are all employed full time.
    Mr. Liddall: Is the Minister satisfied that this, expense is justified? Can he
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    also say how some of these people were employed in private life?
    Sir J. Grigg: My hon. Friend had better put down a Question.
    Sir Herbert Williams: How many of these people were employed in the last war?

    AVOIDANCE OF DELAY.
    Mr. Parkerasked the President of the Board of Trade what instructions have been issued to Government Departments concerned with economic matters to try and get greater speed in taking decisions?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): I have been asked to reply. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of an instruction which was issued to all Departments on the question of avoidance of delay.

    EX-SERVICEMEN (PENSIONS).
    Mr. W. Brownasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is prepared to reconsider the position of the many ex-Servicemen of the last war who have been employed in the Civil Service for long periods, but who, on retirement, will be debarred from receiving any pension despite the length of their Civil Service, because, when the time arrived for them to be considered for establishment, they were over 50 years of age?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): As my hon. Friend is aware, this question has been considered on numerous occasions over a period of years. I am afraid that I cannot see my may to re-open the matter.
    Mr. Brown: Does the Chancellor really think it reasonable, when Civil servants have served for a long period, that they shall be debarred from receiving their just pensions by the accident of the circumstance that they were over 50 years of age when they were established? Will he not reconsider this again, even though it has been under consideration for years?
    Sir K. Wood: The hon. Member knows as much about this as anybody. It has been considered by many Chancellors and many Governments, and I think that as much has been done as can be done.
    Mr. Brown: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman be more enlightened than the others?

  UNITED STATES TROOPS, BRITISH ISLES.
  Captain P. Macdonaldasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the substantial number of American troops who have arrived in the British Isles, he will consider the desirability of arranging for an official welcome to be given in London to a detachment of these troops?
  Sir J. Grigg: United States troops have been arriving in the British Isles in considerable numbers since early this year. The first contingent was officially welcomed at the port of arrival by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air on behalf of His Majesty's Government.
  Captain Macdonald: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the people of London and the Home Counties would be very glad to give an official reception to our American Allies?
  Mr. Shinwell: Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that while we all welcome the presence of American troops in this country, we are getting a little bit tired of all this circus business?

  BRITISH ARMY.

    HOME GUARD.
    Mr. Higgsasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Home Guard training of farm workers is seriously interfering with work on the land at the present time; that the position will become more serious now that hay harvest is in full swing; and will he order the training to be relaxed until after corn harvest.
    Sir J. Grigg: I am not aware of the interference to which my hon. Friend refers. With regard to the last part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) on 18th June.
    Mr. Higgs: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have seen the reply to which he has referred me? Will he inform the House when these instructions were issued to Home Guard officers, because I have seen threatening letters on the subject?
    Sir J. Grigg: To the best of my recollection it was at the end of March or early in April.
    Mr. Higgsasked the Secretary of State of War whether he is aware that civilian employees of the War Department, either temporary or permanent, who are members of the Home Guard, and industrialists and non-industrialists who are ordered to muster as members of the Home Guard, are eligible to receive their civilian pay after muster for a period of six weeks, and that instructions to cover any further period will be issued if necessary; and will he inform the House if any instructions are to be issued with regard to members of the Home Guard who are employed in civil, industrial and non-industrial undertakings?
    Sir J. Grigg: The instruction to which my hon. Friend refers is not confined to civilian employees of the War Department, but applies to civilian employees of Government Departments generally. I hope that other public bodies and private employers who have in their employ civilians, salaried or otherwise, who are members of the Home Guard, will also do their best to see that their salaries or wages continue unaffected, at any rate for a period, after mustering. For those who do lose wages owing to being mustered with the Home Guard, compensation will be admissible within certain limits.

    OFFENCES (SENTENCES).
    Mr. Robertsonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered the case of an officer convicted of stealing War Department petrol, and sentenced by general court-martial, to be dismissed from His Majesty's service, which was confirmed, and at once reduced to a severe reprimand; and, to prevent injustice, whether he will reconsider in the light of this case, that of the Streatham non-commissioned officer in the same unit convicted of a similar, but lesser, offence at about the same time, who was put under close arrest for 21 days prior to court-martial, and thereafter reduced to the ranks, and compelled to serve a sentence of three months in detention barracks?
    Sir J. Grigg: Both these cases were tried by court-martial, and the sentence in each case was reviewed by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Command. I do not feel that I should be justified in interfering with the decisions of the competent military authorities.
    Mr. Robertson: Is there not something wrong with a system which punishes the corporal so severely and lets the officer off so lightly?
    Sir J. Grigg: The hon. Member is assuming that the circumstances were the same in each case. So far as I can judge, and certainly so far as the responsible authorities have judged, the circumstances were not parallel.
    Mr. Ammon: But does not this case bear out the contention that there is a caste system in the Army?
    Sir J. Grigg: Certainly not.
    Mr. Robertson: In view of the gravity of this matter, I give notice that I shall raise it on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can give any information about Private P. Davis who received 28 days' detention for taking some steak-and-kidney-pudding that he was entitled to; and whether he will make inquiries about the matter with a view of having the punishment remitted?
    Sir J. Grigg: My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. Private Davis was not entitled to the tins of food which were found in his possession. I am not prepared to interfere with the sentence.

    RE-ENLISTED PENSIONERS.
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Secretary of State for War whether pensioners re-enlisted before mobilisation under War Office letter No. 3o/Misc/2879/A.G.I.(c), of 22nd May, 1939, who are compulsorily retained notwithstanding the expiration of their three years' engagement, will be entitled to elect to serve, either on their former contractual terms, or on the usual terms appropriate to their rank and service?
    Sir J. Grigg: Yes, Sir.

    MISSING PERSONNEL, MALAYA (DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES).
    Captain Cobbasked the Secretary of State for War when he expects to be in a position to announce the Government's decision, in respect of the continuation after 31st July, of payments of allowances to the dependants of men reported missing in Malaya?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am not yet in a position to make any further statement.
    Captain Cobb: In view of the anxiety which these dependants feel about the continuation of these allowances, will my right hon. Friend try to make an announcement as soon as he possibly can?
    Sir J. Grigg: Yes, Sir. I am well aware of the natural anxiety of the relatives, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I will make a statement well before the expiry of the present period.
    Mr. Hannah: Have the Government any information as to what has happened to Bushido?

    PRIVATE'S OVERSEAS SERVICE.
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private G. Cole, who has served more than 10 years abroad in the Army, never serving within 50 miles of his home, has been posted to the depot for foreign service again; and, as his mother is now in a mental home, whether this man can remain in England?
    Sir J. Grigg: Private Cole was removed from an overseas draft a month ago on compassionate grounds, and the question whether he shall remain in this country is now being considered.

    REQUISITIONING ORDER, EAST ANGLIA.
    Mr. Granvilleasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Requisitioning Order, expiring on 27th June, served by his Department on a certain area in East Anglia, will cause serious hardship to farmers, farm-workers and cottagers, who will have to abandon 3,000 acres of growing corn and a large area of grazing land, farm buildings and cottages; and whether he will consider the alternative area of gorse and common land suggested to him, in order to minimise individual hardship and to preserve valuable food-producing land vital to the war effort?
    Sir J. Grigg: I regret the distress caused to the inhabitants of this area by their compulsory removal and I am glad to say that I have been able to postpone the final date to 20th July. The Ministers of the Departments concerned are co-operating with me in giving the people affected all assistance possible in their removal and resettlement. I am also

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    aware of the loss to food production, but the need of large areas for realistic battle training is so imperative that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, has reluctantly acquiesced in this decision; every effort will be made to salvage crops. Every alternative area in the district, including that suggested by my hon. Friend, was considered but rejected for cogent reasons.
    Mr. Granville: Has my hon. Friend satisfied himself that the alternative common land suggested to him would prove unsuitable? Further, can he give an assurance that there will be adequate compensation? Also, will the fullest opportunity be given to farmers to harvest their crops?
    Sir. J. Grigg: Arrangements have been made for salvaging the crops, though I am bound to say that I think it is quite possible that the crops may be damaged before they are salvaged by the training which is to take place over them. Provision is made for compensation. On the question of whether I satisfied myself personally, the answer is "No," but I satisfied myself that there had been the fullest discussion between my officers and the officers of every other Department concerned, including the representatives of the Ministry of Agriculture on the spot.
    Mr. Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman further consider the postponement of this order until after harvest, and will he see that the Deputy Commissioner has every assistance regarding transport and that great care is taken to assist the old people to get to new and proper homes?
    Sir J. Grigg: As regards the second two Questions, the answer is "Yes." The answer to the first Question is, I am afraid, "No."
    Sir Joseph Lamb: Has the right hon. Gentleman assured himself that all golf courses available in those areas are being used for this purpose before he takes this agricultural land?
    Sir J. Grigg: The discussion took place with representatives of the Ministry of Agriculture on the spot, and I am satisfied that we have taken the land which would do least harm to agriculture.
    Sir J. Lamb: What good do golf courses do for agriculture? Can the right hon. Gentleman answer that?

    CLOTHING COUPONS.
    Mr. Hannahasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the anomaly by which soldiers need to use their wives' or any other coupons, in order to buy handkerchiefs or underwear; and whether he will arrange that soldiers have coupons of their own?
    Sir J. Grigg: Soldiers are under no such necessity. They can buy handkerchiefs from retailers on production of certificates from their commanding officers authorising them to do so. Underwear is issued to them, and replaced free as necessary.
    Mr. Hannah: Then why are the soldiers' wives so very unhappy and discontented?
    Mr. McGovern: Perhaps at losing their husbands.

    UNIFOKMS.
    General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Australian War Cabinet is about to introduce a smarter uniform for Australian troops, because the appearance of the latter compares unfavourably with that of American troops, who have a smarter uniform, and also because it is convinced that smartness has an important bearing on discipline and morale; whether the present uniform of the Australian troops is the same as British battle-dress; and whether he will consider taking similar action to provide British troops with a less unsightly uniform?
    Sir J. Grigg: I have seen a newspaper report that the Australian Government are considering such a proposal, but I have no official information on the subject. I understand that the present Australian uniform is not the same as the battle dress of the United Kingdom Forces. The latter has been found satisfactory for the purposes for which it was designed.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: Does not the Minister agree that smart uniform has a great deal to do with morale and discipline?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am aware of that, but I am aware also that there is not an unlimited supply of wool in the world.

    FREE LEGAL ASSISTANCE.
    Mr. E. Walkdenasked the Attorney-General whether the new scheme of legal aid for the Army will be available to all ranks; and why it has been deemed necessary to subject the applicants for this form of assistance to a means test?
    The Solicitor-General (Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe): As my right hon. and learned Friend stated in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Moelwyn Hughes) on 29th April, a public statement on the details of the proposed scheme for free legal aid for the lower ranks of the Army will be made by my Noble Friend as soon as it is ready to be put into operation. I understand that the scheme will cover all ranks up to and including the rank of sergeant, but that it is not intended to include those few cases where the soldier happens to have substantial private means and is in a position to pay for legal advice.
    Mr. Walkden: In view of the fact that the Welfare Department of the Army issued a statement over three weeks ago announcing that this service would only be for men who have no means apart from their Army pay, would the hon. and learned Gentleman not compare that with the trade unions, who give legal advice free of charge to members, irrespective of their earnings, and will he accordingly give the same consideration to men in the Army as the trade unions give to their members?
    The Solicitor-General: I am sure that my Noble Friend will take that into consideration with any other helpful suggestions he may receive.
    Mr. Bellenger: Why is the hon. and learned Gentleman's Noble Friend concerned? Is not this a matter for the War Office?
    The Solicitor-General: In order that the free legal aid may be efficacious it is necessary to employ lawyers and to secure the co-operation of the legal profession. Therefore my Noble Friend must be concerned.

  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Secretary of State for War at
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  what rate of exchange the enemy Powers make advances of pay to officer prisoners in Germany and Italy?
  Sir J. Grigg: Officer prisoners of war in Germany and Italy receive the pay of corresponding ranks in the German and Italian armies. Since payment is made in German and Italian currency, the question of the rate of exchange does not arise.
  Sir A. Knox: Surely the War Office ought to interest itself in this matter, as considerable reductions are made from officers' pay in this country, and surely it is essential to know what equivalent in Reichmarks and lire a prisoner of war gets in these circumstances?
  Sir J. Grigg: I am sorry, but I misunderstood the hon. and gallant Member. He means, I understand, at what rate are charges in this country in respect of pay advanced by the enemy calculated for officers? It is 15 Reichmarks or 72 lire to the pound.
  Mr. Bellenger: Is not that below the real exchange value? Should not it be somewhere nearer 20 Reichmarks? Is the Department not taking advantage of officer prisoners in debiting the amounts they receive in lire and Reichmarks to their accounts here at that rate?
  Sir J. Grigg: No, Sir. A ration allowance is issued in this country, and that has recently been increased with retrospective effect and is credited in this country.
  Sir A. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will furnish the Library of the House of Commons with copies of the reports drawn up by the Protecting Power on visits to prisoner-of-war camps in Germany and Italy?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Richard Law): I regret that this is impossible, since the reports of the Protecting Power on camp inspections are regarded by them as confidential documents.
  Sir A. Knox: Is the hon. Member aware that in the June number of a new periodical issued by the British Red Cross, long extracts from these reports appear? If he can trust the British Red Cross, why cannot this House be trusted?
  Mr. Law: I was not aware of that; I will look into it.

  SCOTLAND.

    EDUCATION (STATISTICS).
    Mr. McNeilasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what, at any recent suitable date, was the total roll of Scotish schoolchildren in secondary schools and all other schools, excluding nursery schools, respectively; and how many in each of these two classes were receiving whole-time schooling?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): On 14th March, 1942, in the schools under the management of education authorities in Scotland, there were 160,607 children on the rolls of secondary schools and departments and 577,024 on the rolls of other schools, excluding nursery schools. The numbers receiving full-time education were 158,803 and 529,124 respectively.

    WET CANTEENS.
    Mr. Barrasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many wet canteens have been authorised in Scotland under the provisions of Defence Regulation 60AA (Canteens for civilian workers, seamen and fishermen)?
    Mr. Johnston: Three canteens have been authorised in Scotland under the provisions of Defence Regulation 60AA—two by the Secretary of State for Air and one by the Minister of Labour and National Service.
    Mr. Barr: How is it that so little advantage has been taken of this particular Defence Regulation?
    Viscountess Astor: What has the Secretary of State for Scotland been doing all this time?
    Mr. Johnston: As to why so little advantage has been taken of Regulation 60AA, I should imagine, although it is only a guess, that the absence of any private appropriation of profits from these canteens has limited the number of applications.
    Major Lyons: How many applications have been made to and refused by the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Johnston: I should require notice of that Question.
    Mr. McKinlay: How many stoppages of work have taken place because of the lack of drinking facilities?
    Mr. Johnston: I know of none, but the hon. Member had better put down a Question.
    Viscountess Astor: Is it not the case that during the last war the Government of the day had to limit drink because they wanted to increase output, while this Government seem to think that the more you drink the better you work?
    Mr. Johnston: No, Sir, that is exactly contrary to the facts.

    BUILDING DEVELOPMENT.
    Mr. McNeilasked the Prime Minister whether the Ministry of Works and Buildings has any departmental responsibility for housing in Scotland; and whether the Minister of Works and Buildings can initiate any form of building development in Scotland outwith the powers of town and country planning vested in the Secretary of State for Scotland?
    The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): The Ministry of Works and Buildings has no departmental responsibility for housing or for initiating any form of building development, beyond responsibility for the provision of civil works and buildings required by a Government Department.
    Mr. McNeil: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his precise answer, may I ask him whether the apprehensions of many Scottish local authorities about any invasion by London agents are entirely without foundation?
    Mr. Attlee: I hope that by my answer such apprehensions will have been quietened.
    Mr. McKinlay: Will the right hon. Gentleman impress upon the Minister the necessity of not delivering speeches which are not in consonance with the Government's policy, and of ceasing to give invitations to Scottish contractors to send their own schemes for house-building to London?
    Mr. Hannah: Has this Ministry any authority over the few remaining old buildings in Scotland?
    Mr. McNeilasked the Prime Minister what presently are the precise functions and powers in Scotland of the Ministry of Works and Buildings?
    Mr. Attlee: The functions of the Ministry of Works and Buildings in Scotland, as in England and Wales, were the subject of a statement which I made in the House on 24th October, 1940, to which I would refer my hon. Friend. The exact position of the Ministry of Works and Buildings in relation to reconstruction in Scotland was more fully outlined in the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend, the Member for Govan (Mr. Neil Maclean) on 16th June. I am sending my hon. Friend copies of the statements to which reference is made.
    Sir H. Williams: Do I understand my right hon. Friend to say that the statement referred to was made in 1940, some months before the Ministry came into being? [Interruption]. The right hon. Gentleman said that it was based on a statement made some two years before the Ministry came into being.
    Mr. Attlee: The statement was made in 1940, it is true; the Ministry's name may have changed, but these are continuing functions.
    Sir H. Williams: Surely the Ministry of Works and Buildings has many functions which are quite different from those of the Office of Works?
    Mr. McKinlay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Ministry is erecting administrative buildings in Scotland with a life of 30 years, and if the Ministry has no interest in the rebuilding of Scotland, why are they putting up administrative offices to last for such a long period?
    Mr. Stephen: Has the Secretary of State for Scotland agreed to these powers being taken away from him?
    Mr. Attlee: I am not aware that any powers have been taken away from the Secretary of State for Scotland.
    Mr. Maxton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Ministry of Works and Buildings are refusing to allow buildings to be erected in Scotland? The point I am putting is that the Deputy Prime Minister has just replied that he is unaware that any powers have been taken away from the Secretary of State for Scotland, and here is one power that has been taken away.
    Mr. Attlee: The question of the erection of buildings involves also that of the allocation of building materials and labour.
    Mr. Maxton: I see; is that how you get out of it?

  FUEL AND POWER.

    TAXICABS (RACE-MEETINGS).
    Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether London taxi-cab drivers are authorised or instructed to refuse fares to Newmarket and other race-meetings in view of the fact that their petrol ration is not provided for this purpose, and of the dissatisfaction caused in country districts by seeing London taxi-cab drivers going to such meetings?
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Major Lloyd George): London taxi-drivers are not under any obligation to take fares to any point outside the Metropolitan Police area, but there is at present no regulation under which taxi-drivers in London or elsewhere can be instructed to refuse fares to any particular destination. I am concerting with the other Departments concerned an Order designed to regulate the use of taxi-cabs throughout the country.
    Sir J. Lucas: Is not the Minister aware that this is becoming a public scandal? Is not the petrol given to taxi-drivers to be used in the Metropolitan area and for the convenience of the inhabitants? Every time a taxi goes 120 miles it means that there are 60 journeys less for the inhabitants of London.
    Major Lloyd George: I agree, and that is why an Order is in draft to regulate that very thing.

    PETROL ALLOWANCE (RURAL AREAS).
    Mr. W. Brownasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will reconsider the withdrawal of basic rations for motor-cars in the case of motor-car owners living in villages remote from larger towns and in which the shops cannot supply all the needs of the villagers?
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir. I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made in this House oh 21st April indicating the conditions under which an allowance may be obtained for purposes of shopping in a rural area.

    ELECTRICITY CHARGES.
    Mr. Colegateasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that

    1805
    large numbers of electricity consumers pay a flat rate for their electricity regardless of the amount of current consumed; and whether he will secure that in future there shall be a reduction in such rates proportionate to the saving made by the individuals concerned as compared with their normal consumption?
    Major Lloyd George: I am not clear whether my hon. Friend has in mind the fixed charge under two-part tariffs or the minimum charge which is sometimes made in connection with flat-rate charges. In the case of two-part tariffs the Joint Committee of Electricity Supply Associations have agreed to recommend to their members that in suitable cases they should permit their domestic consumers, if they desire to do so, to transfer to the flat-rate charges for such period as the necessity for fuel restriction remains. The whole question of fixed and minimum charges is being examined in consultation with the electricity and gas industries from the point of view of economy in fuel.
    Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister satisfied that the principle of the more you use the less you pay should be continued in present circumstances for light and electricity?
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir, and that is why the whole thing is being examined at the present time.
    Major Lyons: Will the Minister also bear in mind when he gives this matter his personal examination that, for some reason, his predecessor, who was charged with this duty, refused to alter the present practice and said it was perfectly satisfactory?
    Major Lloyd George: That is one of the first things I examined when I went into the Department.

    DOMESTIC COAL STOCKS.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) whether he is aware that thousands of people have not the means or accommodation to stock coal; and what action is to be taken in order that people in this position shall not go short of coal;
    (2) whether he is aware that many people resident in industrial centres, have little or no stock of coal and are only receiving one hundredweight per week, while the Government have advised
    1806
    people to stock a ton; what steps it is proposed to take in order that there shall be an equitable distribution of the available supplies and avoid the hardships caused by the shortage during the past two winters?
    Major Lloyd George: I am aware that stocks of domestic coal are low, that supplies are short, and that many people have little or no stocking accommodation. By spreading the supplies as equitably as possible during the summer months over those who can stock, the strain on labour, transport and supplies in the winter is to that extent relieved; with the aid of the stocks which it is intended to build up in merchants' depots, coupled with the reserve resources of the Government dumps, there should be a sufficiency of supplies for delivery in the winter to those who are without cellar space.
    Mr. Smith: Can the Minister give an undertaking that people who have supplies of coal will receive none while other people who have no coal will receive the coal available? In view of the increasing transport and shipping difficulties has not the time arrived for a scientific distribution of coal?
    Mr. Buchanan: Is the Minister aware that the answer he has given is in contradiction to those given by the President of the Board of Trade and the Leader of the House a short time ago, when they said that the only way to get coal to the poor people was by rationing at once?
    Captain Strickland: Is the Minister aware that, within the last few weeks, there has not been sufficient coal at Coventry to allow each house 5 cwts.?
    Major Lloyd George: I believe a separate Question will be asked on that point.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: May I have an answer to my question?
    Major Lloyd George: The hon. Member knows that there is a restriction upon the coal that can be acquired.
    Mr. Smith: Not rationed.
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir, but the hon. Member knows that the Government have said that they will be ready to put rationing into operation when the need arises. When the need arises we shall do so.
    Mr. Smith: Is the Minister aware that thousands of people cannot obtain any coal? Seeing that it is summer, has not the time arrived to put a proper rationing scheme into operation?
    Major Lloyd George: One of the reasons why this Ministry was formed is to put that position right. At the present moment I am doing all I can to put it right.
    Mr. Shinwell: Can the Minister say whether there is any need for rationing or not? Will he say one way or the other?
    Major Lloyd George: I think my hon. Friend has asked that question before. I cannot answer it at the moment, but I am doing my best to ensure that we shall not have to ration.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: And let the people suffer in the winter?
    Major Lloyd George: I am trying to be fair and prudent. I am taking every step to be prepared to ration if necessary.

    FUEL RATIONING.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what amount of coal per week he proposes to allow an average family to receive weekly who have little or no stocks?
    Major Lloyd George: My hon. Friend will be aware that it has been decided not to ration domestic fuel at present. There is no question, therefore, at the moment of any weekly allowance of coal for an average family. The purpose of the present restrictions, which, as stated in the White Paper on Coal, are to be continued, is to ensure as fair a spread as possible of the available supplies among those who are able to stock coal and coke, and the limits on what may be acquired in a month do not bear any relation to current consumption at this time of year, which everyone should reduce to the lowest possible figure.
    Mr. Smith: Can the Minister state quite definitely what is a reasonable amount of coal to be received by the average family?
    Major Lloyd George: It is laid down what the position at the moment is. Controlled premises are not to acquire more
    1808
    than one ton of any kind of coal or coke if the total stock at the beginning of the month did not exceed two tons.
    Mr. Smith: In view of the fact that there are millions of people who cannot look at tons at all, what is a reasonable amount for the average family to be receiving at present?
    Sir John Wardlaw-Milneasked the Minister of Fuel and Power when the appeal for the voluntary rationing of fuel will be made?
    Major Lloyd George: As my hon. Friend will be aware, appeals for economy in the use of fuel have been made by the Government for some considerable time. A more intensified campaign will start in a very few days.
    Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: I do not know what my right hon. Friend means by speaking of appeals having been made. There has been no widespread appeal. Do I understand from him that there will be a definite appeal launched by the Government for voluntary rationing in the near future?
    Major Lloyd George: Yes, that is what I do mean. There has been some appeal in the last eight months. A more intensified campaign is being started.
    Mr. Shinwell: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "intensified campaign"? Is it to be conducted on a vast scale; is it to cost money? Could he give us a few of the details of what he means by "an intensified campaign"?
    Major Lloyd George: I think that even the hon. Member can hardly expect to get it for nothing. It is bound to cost some money. By "intensified campaign" I mean making use of every possible means of appealing to the public for fuel economy.

    COAL SUPPLIES, BIRMINGHAM.
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is accumulating stocks of coal in the Birmingham area; whether he is aware that merchants and consumers are receiving barely enough for current requirements and are unable to increase their stocks; and whether the policy of building up private stocks during the summer has been discarded in favour of creating central dumps?
    Major Lloyd George: House coal is at present being consigned to a site near Birmingham, but this stock is not being accumulated at the expense of merchants and consumers in that area. There is no intention of discarding the general policy of building up private stocks during the summer.
    Sir J. Mellor: Would it not be better policy to increase private stocks to the fullest possible extent before adding anything to the central dumps?
    Major Lloyd George: That is allowed, as I have explained, up to a certain limited extent, but our policy is to build up emergency stocks as well, so that they can be drawn upon if the need arises.

    METHANE.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkdenasked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) what methods have been adopted to convert to proper use the net daily surplus of sludge gas up to 150,000 cubic feet produced by the sludge digestion plant at a place of which he has been informed; and to how many gallons of petrol this fuel, when compressed, is equal; and
    (2) whether he has any authentic or up-to-date statistics of local authorities or sewage boards now operating sludge digestion plants; how much sludge gas is being produced, used or wasted; and how many have not devised ways or means of utilising all their output of sludge gas?
    Major Lloyd George: The use of methane from sewage works has been carefully examined since the outbreak of war, but I am advised that it would not be in the national interest to give publicly the information for which my hon. Friend asks. I will, however, communicate with him on the subject.
    Mr. Walkden: In view of the fact that information from Germany is published in the various technical journals, and also that in one of our large cities we are running various types of vehicles, including omnibuses, on this type of methane gas, could we not copy some of the German methods and conserve millions of cubic feet of gas per week?
    Major Lloyd George: Perhaps my hon. Friend will communicate with me afterwards.

    HIRED MOTOR-CARS.
    Major Lyonsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he has yet issued an Order to prohibit, or further to limit, the use of petrol in the service of hired motor-cars under the system known as drive-yourself hire; from what date it will operate; and what are its terms?
    Major Lloyd George: An Order is in an advanced stage of preparation.
    Major Lyons: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor, now one of his colleagues in his own Department, said some time ago that this Order was in an active state of preparation, and bearing in mind that the basic ration ceases at the end of this month, will he redeem the pledge' given that this Order will come into force contemporaneously?
    Major Lloyd George: That I cannot possibly do, but I am looking into this matter at the moment, and I cannot add to the answer I have given.

    COAL (PREPARATIONS).
    Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Minister of Fuel and Power the present policy of his Department with regard to the preparation of coal for consumption?
    Major Lloyd George: The practice in the industry is for collieries to screen, clean, grade and, where necessary, crush coal to meet the needs of the various types of fuel-burning plants in industrial undertakings. It will be the policy of my Ministry to continue this practice and to extend it where practicable. The limit to which this policy can be carried is governed by the availability of steel supplies.
    Mr. Thomas: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that coal is not being cleaned to anything like the pre-war extent, and may not this be a short-sighted policy, both from the point of view of consumption and from the point of view of the extra weight carried by the railways?
    Major Lloyd George: I am aware of the difficulties, but we are doing everything we can.

    CONTROLLER-GENERAL.
    Mr. Daggar (for Mr. Ness Edwards)asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that considerable

    1811
    apprehension has arisen in the minds of the coalminers by the appointment of a coalowner as the National Coal Controller; and whether he will take such steps as are necessary to fill the positions of control by persons who have no vested interests in the industry and who can be free of any charge of partiality in the operation of Government control?
    Major Lloyd George: The answer to the first part of the Question is "No, Sir," and to the second that I am fully alive to the point raised. Lord Hyndley, who has been appointed to the post of Controller-General in my Department, has eminent qualifications for it by reason of his long experience and knowledge of all aspects of the coal problem. But I would remind my hon. Friend that, under the recent White Paper on Coal, responsibility rests with me.

  LIBYAN AND MEDITERRANEAN OPERATIONS.
  Earl Wintertonasked the Prime Minister whether he can give any information regarding recent land operations in Libya and the sea actions which have taken place in the Mediterranean?
  Mr. Attlee: As the answer is rather long, I will, with your permission, Sir, reply at the end of Questions.
  Earl Winterton: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear, in order to safeguard the opportunity of hon. Members to ask questions, subject to Mr. Speaker's Ruling, that it will be a reply to a Question and not merely a statement?

  SYNTHETIC RUBBER.
  Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Lord President of the Council whether the synthetic production of rubber, both from coal and oil, is being actively investigated by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research?
  The Lord President of the Council (Sir John Anderson): The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is actively assisting the Ministry of Supply in the consideration of the technical aspects of the production of synthetic rubber.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    WAR DAMAGE COMPENSATION.
    Sir Granville Gibsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered a resolution from the Association of British Chambers of Commerce regarding the present position under which the War Risks Insurance and War Damage Acts will not cover compensation for loss through the application of the scorched-earth policy, or in consequence of seizure by the enemy; and whether he proposes to issue an assurance that the obligations undertaken by the Government will be fully implemented, in view of the provisions of Section 80 of the War Damage Act, 1941?
    Sir K. Wood: Yes, Sir. I have considered and replied to the resolution to which my hon. Friend refers. In answer to the latter part of the Question, I would refer him to the reply given on 12th May by the President of the Board of Trade to the hon. Member for the Lowestoft Division (Mr. Loftus). It is in the event of invasion that loss through the scorched-earth policy or in consequence of seizure by the enemy would occur. If that arises, the question raised will be reviewed by the Government with a view to determining what measures are appropriate and necessary,
    Sir G. Gibson: Does not my right hon. Friend consider that it would only be fair treatment to anyone who suffers from the scorched-earth policy or from seizure by the enemy that he should have those losses covered under the War Risks Insurance and the War Damage Acts?
    Sir K. Wood: That matter will be taken into consideration.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is it not then the intention of the Government to make any announcement until the proposed emergency arises, and, if so, is that altogether a wise and prudent policy to adopt? Might not an announcement affect the actions of some people?

    PLANT REINSTALLATION (COST).
    Sir G. Gibsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether if a firm, under instructions from a Government Department, dismantles plant and machinery and instals it at its own expense in a requisitioned factory, the

    1813
    expense of reinstallation in the original or some other factory at the end of the war will be borne by the Government?
    Sir K. Wood: I presume that my hon. Friend is referring to the removal, under dispersal schemes, of contractors' plant and machinery which is utilised on Government contracts. In such cases the general policy is that all costs of dispersal should be finally borne by the Exchequer, except that of dismantling and re-erecting the plant. It is not, however, part of the policy to undertake to reinstate the dispersed plant in the original or other premises at the end of the war.
    Sir G. Gibson: Why should not the Government be responsible for the reinstallation of plant and machinery when it has been taken from a factory of which a firm has been dispossessed?
    Sir K. Wood: It is a question of allocation, and the Government are in fact undertaking a very large measure of responsibility in this matter. I think I can also say that the matter will obviously have to be further considered when the time comes.
    Sir G. Gibson: Does my right hon. Friend consider it fair and equitable treatment, playing the game, and giving a square deal, that plant should be taken from premises into other premises, and then when it returns to the original premises the firm has to bear the total cost of reinstallation?
    Sir K. Wood: There is really a very large question involved.

    FURNISHED HOUSE LETTING (INCOME TAX).
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the hardship under war conditions, caused by the decision in 1913 in the case of Wylie v. Eccott and the disallowance by the Inland Revenue of the expense of living elsewhere as a deduction from the profit of letting a furnished house; and whether he will take steps to provide relief where householders have temporarily changed their place of residence in connection with work of national importance?
    Sir K. Wood: I am unable to agree that hardship is caused by the decision
    1814
    of the court to which my hon. Friend refers. Income arising from letting a house furnished is clearly chargeable to Income Tax, and it would be contrary to the principles of the Income Tax to allow a deduction in respect of living expenses.
    Sir J. Mellor: Does my right hon. Friend recognise that the present position acts as a deterrent to many people from leaving their homes in order to take up war work?
    Sir K. Wood: No, Sir. This case simply decided that a person assessed under Schedule D in respect of profits derived from letting a house furnished was not entitled to deduct the amount of the rent paid by her for another furnished house in which she lived while her own was let.
    Sir J. Mellor: But people have to find somewhere else to live if they leave their place of residence to take up work.

    BANKING AND INSURANCE COMMITTEE.
    Mr. Frankelasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the appointment of the committee to examine the banking and insurance industry, consideration was given to the desirability or otherwise of making the committee independent of the interests concerned; why the committee is substantially composed of persons representative of those interests; and whether he will now consider giving a better balance by adding representatives of those employed in the industry?
    Sir K. Wood: This committee was expressly designed to conduct an independent investigation and not to be a body representative of the interests directly affected, whether as employer or employee. Those interests will, of course, be given ample opportunity to express their respective points of view to the committee.
    Mr. Frankel: Can this body be described as independent if it is controlled, as I understand it is, by those interested in the banking industry?
    Sir K. Wood: No, Sir. If the hon. Member will see me afterwards, I will give him a list of the members of the committee, and exactly what vocations they follow.

  PERSONAL INJURIES (CIVILIANS) SCHEME.
  Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Pensions; whether he will reconsider his decision not to grant a pension to Mrs. Whitehouse, Cardiff, whose only son was killed whilst doing voluntary duty as a fire-watcher; and, if the provisions of the existing Act make that impossible, whether he proposes to amend the Act so as to provide a pension in cases like this?
  The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): Under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme a parent's need pension can be granted only if, amongst other conditions, the deceased person had been contributing to his parents' support, and this condition is not fulfilled in the case to which my hon. Friend refers. I am, however, giving further consideration to the principle involved in order to see whether any modification is desirable.
  Mr. Griffiths: In that consideration will any action that the Minister may take cover cases of this kind?
  Sir W. Womersley: Certainly. If there is any alteration, it is bound to be retrospective.

  FRUSTRATED CONTRACTS.
  Sir H. Williamsasked the Attorney-General whether, having regard to the decision on 15th June, in the case of Fibrosa Societe Anonyme v. Fairbairn, Lawson, Combe, Barbour, Limited, he is in a position to make any further statement with regard to insurance policies which have been frustrated as a result of the war?
  The Solicitor-General: As stated in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor) on 18th June, the problems arising out of this decision are under consideration by my Noble Friend and my right hon. and learned Friend. For the moment, my right hon. and learned Friend is not in a position 10 make a further statement with regard to the particular matter with which the hon. Member is concerned.
  Sir H. Williams: Are these matters also under consideration by the Board of Trade, through whose action a very large number of people were deprived of the advantages of their policy or a refund?
  The Solicitor-General: The question of legislation is under the consideration of the Government, and all necessary investigations will be made.

  EDUCATION.

    SCHOOL-LEAVING AGE.
    Mr. Thorneasked the President of the Board of Education the number of children who left, or are leaving, the public elementary and other schools at the age of 14 years for 1941 and 1942?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Ede): My right hon. Friend regrets that the information required is not available, since under war conditions the collection of statistics has been reduced to a minimum.

    CHILDREN (AGRICULTURAL WORK).
    Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the need for safeguards to secure that there should be adequate provision for medical examination of schoolchildren exempted from attendance in order to engage in agricultural work, in any case where there is danger of overstrain on account of the child's physical condition; and whether he has been in communication with the local education authorities on this subject?
    Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir. The Defence Regulation requires that
    "if the local authority by notice in writing served on the parent or guardian of any child so requires, the child shall not be employed in agricultural work, or, as the case may be, in agricultural work of any nature, unless he is certified by a registered medical practitioner to be physically fit to be so employed, and it shall be the duty of a child's parent or guardian to take all reasonable steps to see that he is not employed in contravention of this paragraph."
    In the instructions issued by my Department to local education authorities the following is included:
    "If the authority, on information received from the School Medical Officer, teachers or otherwise, have reason to doubt whether a child is physically fit to undertake the work, exemption must not be granted unless a satisfactory medical certificate, which should wherever possible be given by the School Medical Officer, is received."
    Viscountess Astor: Is it possible to give these children one hour's rest in the middle of the day? It will make a great difference to their health.
    Mr. Ede: Where a child is employed for the whole day there is a requirement that a sufficient period of rest shall be allowed, and there is a general desire that the children shall not be employed for more than half a day unless it is absolutely necessary.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Is my hon. Friend aware that if these children aged 14 years and upwards go to work in a factory they are all medically examined? Why this difference?
    Mr. Ede: There are not sufficient doctors available to examine all the children on the spot without such delay as would frustrate the object of obtaining the help of children on the land.

  STRAWBERRIES (GROWERS' PRICES).
  Sir Waldron Smithers (by Private Notice)asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the disastrous position of the strawberry growers in the North-West Kent area, owing to the sudden commandeering of their crop at 7½d. a pound; and, in view of the fact that the growers were only aware of the fixed price two or three days ago and that it came into force on 22nd June, what immediate action he proposes to take?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): The provisions of the Soft Fruit (Maximum Prices) Order, 1942, were fully discussed, before the Order was made, with representatives of the National Farmers' Union, and the growers' prices for strawberries were the amounts suggested by the growers' representatives. I will, however, gladly give consideration to the views expressed by my hon. Friend, and will communicate a decision to him as soon as possible.
  Sir W. Smithers: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the present position is chaotic; that, whatever recommendations were given to the Ministry, many of the growers, under the present price, are faced with serious loss, and some with ruin; that there are tons of strawberries waiting to be picked; and that some decision must be made to-day? Otherwise, much of the crop will be lost. If growers sell their crops, they may be breaking the law, without knowing it.
  Mr. E. Walkden: When making statements concerning prices to be paid to growers, will the hon. Gentleman give the country information as to how the prices compare with those for a similar period in, say, 1938? The price paid to growers in 1938, at a similar period of the year, was never 7½d. a lb. We want to be fair to all sides.
  Mr. Mabane: It will be recognised that it is not possible to have two different prices for strawberries from Kent and for strawberries from other parts of the country. That would encourage black marketing. My hon. Friend's representations will be taken into account, and any decision that is made will be communicated to him as soon as possible.
  Mr. De la Bère: There must be immediate action, to-day; it is no good waiting any longer. The thing is an absolute scandal.
  Sir W. Smithers: Is my hon. Friend aware that since the date mentioned by the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) prices of production, including wages, manure, and everything else, have all gone up? Strawberries cannot be produced at less than 1s. a lb.
  Mr. Stokes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, even though a price of 7½d. may have been fixed for the growers, strawberries are being retailed in the West Country at 2s. 4d.? How does he explain the difference?
  Mr. Mabane: I referred to the price for the growers. There are different prices for the growers', the wholesalers and the retailers—7½d. is the basic growers price.
  Major Lyons: Is my hon. Friend aware that on every occasion, for every commodity, the same kind of muddle is made? Will he take steps to think of these things before the time arises, rather than have the chaos which now exists? The same thing happened in connection with tomatoes.
  Mr. De la Bère: And with gooseberries.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (HEATING AND LIGHTING).
  Mr. Molson (By Private Notice)asked Mr. Speaker whether he will arrange for Parliament to practise economy in fuel

  1819
  by discontinuing the artificial heating of the Palace of Westminster which has been continued up to 17th June, and reducing the number of electric lights kept burning by day.
  Mr. Speaker: The regulation of the heating and lighting of the Chamber, and those parts of the Palace of Westminster reserved for the use of hon. Members, falls within the responsibility of the Serjeant at Arms, and the Serjeant at Arms consults, as far as he can, the convenience of Members generally. This is not an easy matter, as opinions are apt to vary here as elsewhere about the ideal temperature, nor does the thermometer necessarily conform to the calendar, as the hon. Member seems to suggest. If the hon. Member has any suggestions to make for improvements in economy of fuel here, he can count on their receiving due consideration, if he will bring them to the notice of the Serjeant at Arms Department.

LIBYAN AND MEDITERRANEAN OPERATIONS.
Mr. Attlee: It is now just three weeks since the Prime Minister made a statement to the House upon the battle which was then developing in Libya, as the result of the attack upon our positions by the Axis forces. He then read to the House a statement which he had received from General Auchinleck as to the situation on the preceding day, in which it was stated:
"Fierce fighting is still proceeding, and the battle is by no means over. Further heavy fighting is to be expected, but whatever may be the result, there is no shadow of doubt that Rommel's plans for his initial offensive have gone completely awry and that this failure has cost him dear in men and material."
The Prime Minister, after summarising the latter part of General Auchinleck's telegram, added:
"From all the above, it is clear that we have every reason to be satisfied, and more than satisfied, with the course which the battle has so far taken, and that we should watch its further development with earnest attention."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd June, 1942; cols. 532–3, Vol. 380.]
That statement took the events up to 1st June. Unfortunately, after this initial check to General Rommel, and after the fight had swayed to and fro for some days, events have gone against us, in
1820
spite of the splendid courage and morale of our troops, which still remain unbroken. When the noble Lord, on Thursday last, asked for a statement on the Libyan campaign, I asked for and obtained a report from General Auchinleck. This gives an account of the events up to 20th June, which I propose to read to the House:
"An enemy attack during the last few days of May was expected, and preparations had been made accordingly. The Eighth Army, on positions stretching from Gazala Southwards to Bir Hacheim, was awaiting the attack, and the Royal Air Force began counter-offensive action about a week beforehand. The enemy's first attempt to encircle Bir Hacheim and go Southwards was met by our armoured forces in the Knightsbridge-E1 Adem area. Most bitter fighting ensued, in which the enemy was constantly attacked by our armoured and air forces. At first things appeared to be going well. The enemy, in spite of a gap which he had forced in our minefields, was having difficulty with supplies, and all our efforts, including an intense air attack, were devoted to increasing his embarrassment. This was probably a crucial moment in the battle. The enemy was exhausted. Had we been able to take advantage of the enemy's condition, we might have turned the scale. In point of fact, however, we were equally exhausted, and this was impossible.
On the 3rd June the enemy succeeded in overrunning the 150th Brigade and in establishing for himself a forward base in our minefield area. In an attempt to restore the position and to drive him out, General Ritchie counter-attacked on the 4th June.
On the information available at the time, the chances of success of this attempt seemed good, and it was preceded by adequate and careful reconnaissance, but it is now clear that it was, in fact, premature. The enemy put in a fierce counter-stroke in the face of which we were forced to withdraw with considerable losses. The enemy then concentrated his attention on Bir Hacheim, which was garrisoned by the Free French and had already been subjected to heavy pressure for a period of nine days. Every effort was made to relieve the pressure on this defended locality by the employment of mobile troops. Intense air support was provided by the Royal Air Force. In the event, however, General Ritchie decided that the risk of maintaining this isolated garrison was too great, and he accordingly decided to withdraw it on June 10th. The Free Frenchmen defended Bir Hacheim with the utmost tenacity and endurance, and their efforts served to delay the enemy and to contain considerable enemy forces.
With the fall of Bir Hacheim, these enemy forces were released, and the enemy pressed his attack in the Knightsbridge to El Adem area. Heavy fighting ensued, and although our troops and air forces fought with the greatest skill, three days later we were forced to abandon some positions at Knightsbridge, which opened the way for the enemy to break through to the coast and to try to cut off the

1821
1st South African and 50th Divisions in their position south of Gazala. General Ritchie decided rightly to withdraw these two divisions, an operation which was carried out with skill, and was very largely successful. Under cover of our armoured forces, which held off the enemy panzer divisions, and under the covering protection which the Royal Air Force provided (in spite of the fact that we were at the same time engaged in protecting a convoy to Malta) both these divisions succeeded in joining General Ritchie to the East of Tobruk.
The enemy then pressed his attack in the E1 Adem area. A fierce battle ensued, in which he succeeded in establishing himself East of the E1 Adem defended local area at Sidi Rezegh. For four days the enemy was held in the air and on land, until eventually on the 17th, General Ritchie decided to withdraw to the E1 Adem—E1 Duda—Sidi Rezegh area under the effective cover of our air forces, and concentrated his main forces towards the frontier, leaving what was considered to be an adequate garrison in Tobruk.
On the morning of the 20th June the enemy attacked Tobruk from the South-East, and succeeded in penetrating the perimeter and positions of that portion of the Tobruk area East of the Tobruk—E1 Adem road. The garrison is still fighting hard, and a gallant attempt to save what appears to be an impossible situation is being made. But the fall of Tobruk is imminent if it has not already fallen.
The battle is not yet over. Our air forces are still actively offensive and still maintaining the moral superiority they have gained over the enemy. The Eighth Army is still in the field and has already received and is still receiving further reinforcements."
This is the end of General Auchinleck's statement. Since then we have received definite news of the fall of Tobruk. The attack on Tobruk began during the morning of 20th June. A heavy air bombardment was followed by an infantry attack, which succeeded in making an initial breach in the South-East face of the perimeter. Enemy tanks and lorried infantry passed through this gap and were brought to battle inside the perimeter during the afternoon. We lost very heavily in tanks, and as a result the situation deteriorated rapidly. During the night the mobile portion of the garrison began to fight its way out. We have as yet no details of the results of the fighting, nor have we any information as to what part of the garrison has been able to escape capture. It is not possible to give the House any further information at this stage of the battle.
The fall of Tobruk and the capture of a large part of its garrison is a heavy and an unexpected blow. There were in the garrison troops from this country, from
1822
India, and from South Africa. We deplore the loss of all these gallant troops. I am sure this House will join me in expressing our sympathy with Field-Marshal Smuts in the loss which he and the people of South Africa have sustained in the capture of forces which have played such a distinguished part in the campaign. The position is difficult, but the fight for Libya continues. We still have strong forces in the field. Substantial reinforcements, both land and air, which had already been despatched, are arriving, while others are on their way. The House may be assured that every possible step is being taken to restore the position. Any further advance by the enemy, who has also had heavy losses, will be stoutly opposed by our ground and air forces. It is a situation that calls for the greatest courage and devotion from our soldiers and airmen and for steadfastness and resolution among our people. I am sure that these qualities will be forthcoming and that we shall all meet this setback in the spirit that inspires that fine statement made yesterday by Field-Marshal Smuts.
I turn now to the second part of the noble Lord's Question, relating to the operations in the Mediterranean. The gallant resistance of Malta deserves every possible effort we can make to sustain the people and garrison in their great fight. The passage of convoys for this purpose has for a long time been a hazardous operation. Whether these come from Gibraltar or from Alexandria, their assembly and departure become known to the enemy and he can lay plans for their interruption. Whether from the East or the West, they must steam about 1,000 miles, mostly through waters under constant enemy air and submarine reconnaissance and within easy striking distance of the enemy s main sea and air bases. Thus they must fight their way through. On this occasion it was decided to sail two convoys, one from the West and one from the East. The enemy must then either concentrate on one or other of the convoys, or attempt to attack both with smaller forces against each. That, in effect, is what happened. The Western convoy, under the command of Vice-Admiral Curteis, was sighted and shadowed by enemy aircraft before it reached the Sardinia-North Africa Channel, but in spite of violent air attack and the threat

1823
of attack by two enemy cruisers and four destroyers, which were driven off, this convoy reached Malta, although with serious losses, in the early hours of Tuesday, 16th June. During this passage 43 enemy planes were destroyed for certain and 22 probably destroyed, as well as many others damaged, by A/A gunfire from the convoy and escorts by naval aircraft and by aircraft of the R.A.F. Attacks were made on the enemy cruisers and destroyers by our aircraft, which claimed several hits, and a large enemy destroyer was seen to be hit by torpedoes both forward and aft and to suffer a violent explosion amidships.
After supply ships had been passed into Tobruk, the Eastern convoy, under the command of Rear-Admiral Vian, was steering towards Malta on Sunday, 14th June, when our air reconnaissance reported an enemy force consisting of two battleships of the "Littorio" class and four cruisers and at least eight destroyers, which was evidently attempting to bar the passage of the convoy to Malta. Avoiding action was accordingly taken by Admiral Vian, and meanwhile air striking forces were despatched from Malta and from the Western Desert to attack the enemy fleet. These attacks developed at intervals during the forenoon of Monday, 15th June. One of these attacks was witnessed by one of our submarines, who saw a 10,000-ton cruiser of the 8-inch gun "Trento" class hit, set on fire and stopped. The submarine closed in and sank this cruiser by torpedo. It is certain that other damage was inflicted upon the enemy. In particular, one of the enemy battleships was hit by a torpedo. During this day the enemy main fleet cruised between the Eastern convoy and Malta, but by nightfall the arrival of the Western convoy was ensured. The delay during the air attacks on the enemy battlefleet resulted in an expenditure of fuel by the Eastern convoy which necessitated the return of this convoy to Alexandria. Full reports of the losses inflicted on the enemy air forces during air attacks on this convoy have not yet been received, but it is known that at least 15 aircraft were shot down by anti-aircraft gunfire of His Majesty's ships and that R.A.F. fighters alone accounted for seven enemy aircraft certainly and damaged several others. The House will have already gathered
1824
that the relief brought to the Malta garrison by the convoy was not carried through without considerable loss. In summary, the balance-sheet of naval and aircraft losses is as follows:
Royal Navy losses: One light cruiser, four destroyers and two escort vessels sunk.
Enemy losses actually known: One battleship torpedoed, one 8-inch cruiser sunk, two destroyers sunk, one U-boat sunk.
It is also known that the enemy lost at least 65 aircraft. As against this, our losses amounted to 30 aircraft, including those both of the R.A.F. and of the Fleet Air Arm. General Lord Gort has expressed great appreciation, on behalf of Malta, of the gallant men of all Services who made it possible to replenish the supplies of the island and has specially mentioned the officers and men of the Merchant Navy. The Government also desire to express their grateful thanks for the help rendered to the Royal Air Force and the Fleet Air Arm by the American bombers, who took part in the operation with success.
The House will, I think, desire to have an early opportunity of discussing these events and the situation in the Mediterranean theatre of war. Should this be so, the Government will, of course, meet the wishes of the House. As I have already pointed out, our information about the events in Libya is incomplete. The battle is still in an acute stage. The men in command are very fully occupied in dealing with the immediate and pressing needs of the situation, and Members will wish to be put in possession of all the facts that could be given, before coming to any judgment on these events. In those circumstances, I suggest to the House that it would be well to wait a few days in order that as full a statement as possible may be made and a fruitful Debate take place.
Earl Winterton: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his very full reply, may I ask him to convey to the Prime Minister one point with which many of us would like the right hon. Gentleman to deal in the Debate? In view of the fact that the principal factor in this defeat—as I call it, and not "setback"—as in the case of Malaya, Singapore, and Burma, was the fact that the

1825
enemy possessed superior gun-power, more suitable tanks and more suitable planes than we had, and that the right non. Gentleman, although he may not be morally responsible—because that responsibility must rest with other Ministers who are in or have held office, and events may be due to circumstances over which the Government have no control—is, as Defence Minister, constitutionally responsible to this House for this state of affairs, will my right hon. Friend be good enough to convey to him a request that he should make a very full statement on how it arose? Will he also convey to the right hon. Gentleman a further request? Some of us are in possession of information from unimpeachable sources, which goes to show that the Defence Minister and the Secretary of State for War need to inquire very closely into the armament and hitting power of the armoured divisions at home, because if these divisions and American divisions are sent overseas without armament equality, it will be one of the greatest catastrophies in our history.
Mr. Attlee: I will, of course, convey the noble Lord's points to the Prime Minister, but I must not be taken as accepting the noble Lord's judgment with regard to these events. I will certainly convey those points and the request that they should be dealt with in the Debate.
Mr. Greenwood: On a question of procedure and Business. While I think the House would wish to have the fullest amount of information available before the Debate, do I take it that there will be no undue delay in holding the Debate, that it will be a full-dress Debate with ample time for discussion, and further, that any statement which the Prime Minister may make on the result of his mission to Washington will be taken as an entirely separate item of Business?
The Lord Privy Seal (Sir Stafford Cripps): It is the intention of the Government to give the House the fullest opportunity for a Debate at the earliest possible moment, consistent with what my right hon. Friend has said. The House need be under no anxiety; they will have the fullest opportunity for discussion.
Mr. Lawson: Can the Deputy Prime Minister state plainly to this House and to the world that the conduct of our fighting men in this battle has been worthy of the best traditions of the British Services?
Mr. Attlee: Certainly. There is no doubt whatever that the troops, whether British, Indian, South African or Free French, have all fought magnificently. Their morale has been splendid.
Sir H. Williams: May I ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether articles published in the London Press coming from correspondents in Cairo and the Middle East generally are subject to censorship, and whether, if they are subject to censorship, he can explain the cause of the very optimistic tone of the articles published in the Sunday Press?
Mr. Attlee: The hon. Member was good enough to give me notice that he wished to raise this point. All messages from Cairo are subject to censorship. They are censored only for security. For two or three days until yesterday criticism-of the handling of the battle was held up, but only as a temporary measure, on the grounds that it would be helpful to the enemy. This ban was released yesterday, with the result which will be seen in all this morning's papers. The ban, however, referred only to criticism and not to any news of a pessimistic or discouraging character. The sources of war correspondents' messages are various. They are compiled from personal observation at the front and from information given at the daily military conference in Cairo. The purpose of the military conference is, I believe, generally to expand and explain the communiqué, which must always be the backbone of the news of the day. Questions, however, may be asked, and a good deal of the information derived is probably in response to questions. It is quite impossible from this end to say what was the source of various messages in the Sunday Press of 21st June. It is worth pointing out, however, that the terrain and defences of Tobruk are very well known to every war correspondent there and that, if the strength of the garrison being left was stated, appreciation of the possibilities of defence was probably based on the independent judgments of the correspondents. All these men there have been studying Libya for a long time, some since the early beginnings, in General Wavell's days, and are thoroughly well informed.
Sir H. Williams: The Sunday papers and these correspondents at Cairo made the definite statement that the defences

1827
of Tobruk could hold out for a long time, though at the moment these words were being written part of the defences had, in fact, fallen.
Mr. Attlee: That was not an official view. That was the correspondent's view on the facts known to him under the conditions I have mentioned. The Government could take no responsibility for that.
Sir Percy Harris: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the statement by Mr. Hughes the well-known Australian political leader, suggesting that the soothing syrup that is being poured out, particularly in reference to this campaign, is not according to the wishes or desires of his country and that they would rather be supplied with hard facts?
Mr. Attlee: I do not know exactly to what particular writing Mr. Hughes was referring, but you cannot have a free Press and at the same time have instructions to prevent optimistic or pessimistic statements being made.
Major C. S. Taylor: On the question of procedure raised earlier, in view of the large number of former Ministers who will wish to take part, will the Government be prepared to grant two days or if necessary three days for this Debate, in order to give back-benchers, who so rarely have the chance of speaking in these Debates, an opportunity of doing so on this occasion?
Sir S. Cripps: It is the intention of the Government, as I have already stated, to devote two days to the Debate, and no doubt we can suspend the Standing Order if necessary. I am sure the Government would be anxious that all back-benchers who desire should, if they speak shortly enough, have an opportunity of taking part in the Debate.
Viscountess Astor: Would it not be a good idea if former Ministers, a good many of whom have been tried and found wanting, came last in this Debate?
Mr. Stokes: May I ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether he is in a position to give any particulars or make any general statement with regard to the merchant shipping losses of the two convoys to which he referred; and whether he is
1828
able to say anything to this House at this moment about the gigantic reserves we were apparently piling up in Libya at the expense of Malaya and Singapore, and what has happened to them?
Mr. Attlee: I think I should have both those questions on the Paper.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: May I ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of the vital part played by air power in the Middle East and the doubt whether it was effectively used, the Secretary of State for Air will speak during this Debate?
Sir S. Cripps: It is impossible to say, I think, at this stage which Ministers will speak, but I think the Secretary of State for Air will be here and, if necessary, will no doubt take an opportunity of addressing the House.
Mr. A. Bevan: It was difficult to catch the interchange between my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) and the Leader of the House. Is the House quite clear that the Prime Minister's report upon his American visit and the Debate upon Libya are to be taken separately?
Sir S. Cripps: Certainly. Obviously, I think it would not be convenient for the House to mix these two things together.
Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: Is not the Deputy Prime Minister making the same mistake as has been made before of believing that the House requires to have a detailed description of what has happened from generals in the field before we can discuss this disaster? As I see it, it is not that which we want to discuss; what we want to discuss is where the blame lies for one of the most serious disasters that has ever fallen upon this country, following upon other disasters. What is wanted by the House is an opportunity of discussing the conduct and military direction of the war. Certain Members with whom I have had conversations will desire to put upon the Order Paper a Notice of Motion that, while having the highest admiration for the work of the troops and for their endurance, they have no longer confidence in the central military direction of the war. That being the case, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether this matter can be left open until some indefinite date during the next series of

1829
Sitting Days, or until later. Surely in a case as serious as this the House wants to discuss the matter at once, and I suggest that the third Sitting Day of our present series is a suitable day for beginning this discussion. The Business on the Paper for that day—important as it is, no doubt—is purely a domestic matter, and I suggest that the grave war situation is not a matter which, in accordance with the dignity and rights of this House, should be put off for an indefinite period.
Mr. Attlee: I am quite sure that the hon. Member, desirous as he may be of finding a scapegoat [HON. MEMBERS: "No"]. Well, the hon. Member said he wanted to place the blame somewhere. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]. I am agreeing, but surely it is best to know the facts. You want to know the facts before you condemn either the Government, generals, or anybody else, and the only point I made—and I think it was generally accepted by the House—was that we want to give the House the fullest amount of facts available. We have not got them, and it is difficult to get them right away at a moment when events are moving fast there, and generals are so heavily engaged. I am quite sure, however, that my hon. Friend will be given the fullest opportunity, as the Leader of the House said, of debating this and voting on it and, if there is blame, of placing the blame in the right quarters.
Mr. Maxton: If the House agrees to this postponement, shall we actually have more facts than we have to-day? That has not been our experience hitherto.
Mr. Attlee: We shall seek to get all the available facts.
Mr. Garro Jones: Quite obviously, these events require new and vital decisions with regard to such matter's as the high command, equipment, reinforcements and so on. Can we have an assurance that these decisions, having regard to the control of the Minister of Defence, will not be held up pending his return?
Mr. Attlee: All decisions regarding reinforcements are being taken at once. Nothing is being held up.
Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: Leaving aside the insinuations of the right hon. Gentleman, with which it is not necessary to deal, is it not within his knowledge and the knowledge of everybody in the country
1830
that the real reason for our defeat in Libya is that we were out-gunned and out-tanked? Is not that already clear from the despatches that have come from that quarter? Therefore, is it really necessary that the House should be put off until we get some further detailed description of the operations, when the facts are already known?
Mr. Gallacher: Will there be any further and more definite statement prepared for Members of this House before the discussion takes place? Is it not about time that the Labour members of the Government aroused the people of this country against the 1922 Committee?
Mr. Price: Has the Prime Minister been informed that his presence in this country at a very early date is considered desirable by this House?
Mr. Attlee: The Prime Minister is well aware of that. He is engaged on extremely important business for the prosecution of the war, but the House can be assured that he will be away no longer than is absolutely necessary.
Mr. Shinwell: On Business, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of his statement last Thursday in reply to a Question about the publication of shipping losses, and his reply that he would consult the First Lord of the Admiralty, he has now done so, and whether the Government are now prepared to publish shipping losses?
Mr. Attlee: I am afraid that I have been very much pressed, as my hon. Friend will realise, by these events and have not had time to discuss the matter with my colleagues. I will do so, however, during the next few days.
Mr. Shinwell: While I appreciate that my right hon. Friend and other right hon. Members of the Government have been very much pressed during the last few days, and no doubt very much disturbed, and while appreciating that the gravity of the situation, as it has been disclosed in many quarters, calls for an immediate statement on the part of the Government—I gave notice that I would raise this matter on the Adjournment—would he prefer, as no doubt many others would, to have a set Debate on this subject? If so, would he afford facilities for such a Debate?
Mr. Attlee: I should have thought that was much the better course. I do not think that a matter of this importance should be debated casually for a short time on the Adjournment. It would do no good at all to the war effort. Everybody realises the importance of the shipping position. In answer to the question as to whether it is advantageous or not to publish shipping losses, that is a matter which can be debated. It must be considered. Quite obviously, I cannot take a decision on that at the present moment. It must be a matter for grave consultation, because it has been decided by the Cabinet after very full thought.
Mr. Shinwell: I am sorry to press the point, but does my right hon. Friend realise that the publication of shipping losses in the United States does convey much information not only to the people of the United States but to the people of this country and to the enemy? Is it not desirable that the publication of shipping losses should be co-ordinated among the United Nations?
Mr. Attlee: I think that gives an added reason why hasty action should not be taken. Obviously, it is a matter which should be discussed with the United States Government. I am not aware that there have been any official figures, or any official publication there—
Mr. Shinwell: Yes.
Mr. Attlee: I think not. But, as I have said, it involves not ourselves alone. I think my hon. Friend's suggestion of a full Debate is much the best way of dealing with it rather than raising the matter on the Adjournment.
Colonel Arthur Evans: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that Dr. Goebbels, on the radio the other night, deplored the fact that we did not publish the news to the world?
Mr. Attlee: It is always necessary to watch what Goebbels and Co. want and not necessarily to do it.
Mr. John Dugdale: Will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of asking the Russian Government to send the best available Russian general to Cairo in the shortest possible time?
Earl Winterton: Send him to this House; he will do much more good.
Sir George Hume: At a time when this House and country are faced with a position such as the present, when we have just received news which has undoubtedly touched everyone very severely, is it not well that we should give a lead to the country by showing that we can remain calm in the face of these conditions? We have been warned that we shall have difficulties. I think there is a tremendous responsibility on this House that we should not show any signs of panic whatever. We ought to be drawing closer together and strengthening the hands of those who have this big responsibility, and not talking of passing votes of censure which can only be translated to the world at large as meaning that we are feeling ourselves more or less beaten, when we are not.
Mr. W. Brown: Cannot the Leader of the House give, at least, an approximate time-limit within which this Debate will be held? Some of us do not forget that we are still without information from Singapore, and we hope that we are not going to have another delay like this in regard to Libya. Cannot the Leader, of the House give, at least, an approximate time-limit in which the House can debate this matter?
Sir S. Cripps: I think one can say that we shall be able to debate it in the course of the next series of Sitting Days.
Mr. Stokes: In support of what my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) said, may I ask the Leader of the House whether there is any real reason for not holding the Debate during the present series of Sitting Days? Is it that the Government hope to evade the situation by letting events overtake them?
Sir S. Cripps: I should have thought the reason why it should not be held during the present series of Sitting Days was quite clear from what my right hon. Friend said. It is equally clear that the decision to hold the Debate during the course of the next series of Sitting Days shows that the Government do not wish to evade it.
Commander Locker-Lampson: Is it not a fact that no war was won by a debating society?

BILL PRESENTED.
  HOUSING (RURAL WORKERS) BILL,
  "to extend the time within which applications for assistance under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926, may be received by local authorities"; presented by Mr. Ernest Brown; supported by Mr. T. Johnston, Mr. R. S. Hudson, Captain Crookshank and Miss Horsbrugh; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting-Day, and to be printed [Bill 34].
PRIVILEGES.
Report from the Committee of Privileges (on the matter of the Complaint made on 5th May) (with Minutes of Evidence.) brought up; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed for the use of Members only (pursuant to the Order of the House of 18th June).

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Finance Bill, without Amendment.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
"That, notwithstanding the practice of the House, the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill may be considered in Committee immediately after the Bill has been read a Second time."—[Sir Stafford Cripps.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Proceedings on the Motion relating to a National Scheme of Family Allowances be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Sir Stafford Cripps.]
Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal the purpose of suspending the Rule, and how long the House is liable to sit?
Sir S. Cripps: We propose to suspend the Rule for the Debate on family allowances to meet what we believe to be the general wishes of the House. The Debate will begin after we have passed the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill through its remaining stages. I suggest that for the convenience of the House we should endeavour to conclude the Debate about two hours later than the usual time. As I am informed that many hon. Members wish to catch Mr. Speaker's eye, I hope they will be able to take part in the Debate owing to the shortness of speeches of other hon. Members.
Question put, and agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 3) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Mr. Austin Hopkinson: I understand that the arrangements for today were made through something which is called the "usual channels," a mysterious road with which most of us are unacquainted, and that the programme is to be such that, in the present crisis of the nation, the whole of this day is to be devoted to a Debate on the subject of family allowances. As one of the oldest Members of the House, who has worked for, served, and loved this House for 22 years, I protest that we should earn the derision and contempt of the whole country by such an action. Last week, a whole day was wasted in discussing whether old age pensions are poor relief or not, when every Member of the House knew that they are, and to-day, in this crisis when Tobruk has fallen, Egypt is in imminent danger, and Sevastopol is on the point of falling, this House is to stultify itself by discussing a matter like family allowances! Therefore, I propose, to discuss the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill, and I am going to do so whether the House likes it or not.
  1840
  This Bill deals with a sum of £1,000,000,000, and the question for this House to consider is what value we are obtaining for these endless thousands of millions of pounds which have been poured down the drain. This is an admirable opportunity, in view of the news which has reached us during the last 48 hours, to discuss, as we can do, on the Second Reading of this Bill the whole policy of this Government and previous Governments, which has brought us to this present impasse, due as all the world knows to the fact that our equipment is utterly defective as compared with that of the enemy, that there is not enough of it, and it is not of the right sort, that the enemy has superior equipment, superior fittings to his tanks, superior guns and superior aircraft. And this after two years of a Government which has had the most complete autocratic powers that any Government has ever had in the whole history of this country—two more years which the locusts have eaten.
  The House ought to know why, when the Minister of Production made his broadcast in America, did he have to explain to the whole world the utter nakedness of the land and the feebleness of our war effort? The right hon. Gentleman informed the world that, so terrific was our production of what he called "big guns," that we were producing 40,000 a year. From the very next paragraph of his broadcast it was obvious that he, like Lord Beaverbrook in a previous broadcast, when he said "big guns," meant anything more than 303, or small arms. That is our war effort as regards guns‡ Again, he said of tanks and other mechanically-propelled vehicles, 230,000 odd a year, a miserable production at this stage of the war. Again, in regard to aircraft production, the right hon. Gentleman had to tell the world that it is to-day only 100 per cent. greater than it was in the autumn of 1940. Mark what was the position in 1940. The autumn of 1940 was the period when Lord Beaverbrook had completely wrecked the whole aircraft production programme of the country. Our production was miserable and was actually going down owing to the machinations and follies of that curse to this country, Lord Beaverbrook. That is the exposure that we had in America from the Minister of Production.

  1841
  Here we are again, by this Bill throwing another £1,000,000,000 down the drain, as we have thrown thousands of millions before. The whole thing goes back to fundamental policy and nothing else. Every conceivable mistake that we made in the last war has been made in this war by this Government and its predecessor. For example, it was decided, rightly or wrongly, that in the production of munitions the profit motive must be maintained as a spur to action. Personally, I never thought it was necessary and I am convinced that those manufacturers who prefer their own pockets to the public interest are comparatively few and could be dealt with adequately. It was totally unnecessary to do, as Lord Swinton did when, as Secretary of State for Air, he went to the aircraft ring and instead of telling them, as any statesman would have told them, "The country is in danger, and is going to be in greater danger still: you have to give up any idea of your profits or post-war trade and help us out of the difficulty we are in"—the general tone of his appeal was this. "Now, boys, here we are again together. The good old times have returned. Open your mouths wide and we will see you through." That is the way our aircraft production was started by Lord Swinton several years before the war.
  With regard to this question of profit being a spur to production, and supposing—though I do not believe it is true—that it was necessary to adopt that policy and stick to it, what do we do next? We immediately arrange an Excess Profits Tax to skim off all those profits which ex hypothesi we say are a spur to production. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) will, from his experience of the Excess Profits Tax, endorse this, that the Excess Profits Tax, well-intentioned as it was, is to a very large extent evaded. It is one of those taxes which honest men pay and dishonest men do not, because it is unsound in principle as it goes against all the proper canons of taxation and, therefore, it is extremely difficult to frame orders in such a way that a dishonest man cannot evade them. I have evaded it myself without having to practise any really serious degree of dishonesty. For the benefit of others who may be listening to me or who may read some portion of this speech in the newspapers, I may say that the way
  1842
  is quite simple. What one does is, having calculated the amount of Excess Profit Tax for which one is going to be liable in the current year, simply to work for the public service for nothing to the extent of that tax, with the result that the fighting Services get 20s. in the £ of every one of those pounds instead of the Inland Revenue getting only perhaps 6d. in the £, the rest being poured down the drain. I give that method of evasion to anyone whom it may interest, and I hope it will extend on a larger and larger scale.
  But there is another mistake. It was decided, I think rightly, to set up a Ministry of Supply as soon as hostilities broke out. I happened to be at Co-ordination of Defence when all the necessary preliminary steps were taken and that extremely wise old Civil Servant Sir Arthur Robinson was responsible mainly for the drafting of the organisation. He was undoubtedly right in his view. For it stands to reason that all three fighting Services use a vast bulk of supply which is the same for all. The shape and the size of the respective mouths of airmen, soldiers and sailors is not so different that different patterns of spoons need to be used for the Army, Navy and Air Force. During a period of national peril it is possible, I believe, for a naval rating to use the same spoon that satisfies his brother in the Army or Air Force. Therefore it was obvious that a Ministry of Supply would be of immense value in producing the vast bulk of the material which satisfies the common needs of all Services. But it is a very different matter when it comes to weapons, and that has been the trouble all through.
  This discussion we have had about Libya shows perfectly plainly that, quite rightly, and without any desire to hunt scapegoats, the House would like to know who is to blame for what has happened to us, and is likely to happen again. As long as you divorce a fighting Service from the supply of its own weapons, it is impossible to tell who is at fault when disaster occurs. We got it in the case of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. How can any one say whether there was a breakdown of the fighting personnel or whether it was due to lack of material, or inferior materials? As a matter of fact it was due to both to a certain extent. But to deny a fighting Service the right to supply its own weapons is a mistake which ought to be

  1843
  corrected, if possible, at the earliest moment. The difficulties and delays and the lack of satisfaction that one gets in one's weapons in the Fleet Air Arm arise simply because we are not responsible for the design and manufacture of our equipment. Those are things that can be put right and, if they are, even at this late stage it would be possible to arouse the people of the country and the employers in the munitions industry to a sense of the seriousness of the situation and, by making them realise that, to clear the way for a better state of affairs in the labour world, which is chaotic at present.
  For we have made a perfectly hopeless mess of the whole labour question, and, after all, where is this £1,000,000,000 going? It is all going, ultimately, in wages and salaries somewhere. It may be indirectly, but ultimately it is going in wages and salaries. Therefore, it is highly desirable that the House should face up to the present labour situation. That situation has been caused—I almost said deliberately caused, but that perhaps would be unfair—by the policy adopted by the Minister of Labour ever since he took office some two years ago. I make no apologies for not waiting for him to come into the House, and I have not given him notice, because, as the House will remember, on the last occasion when, in Debate, the right hon. Gentleman was grossly impudent to me, and subsequently I took advantage of your permission, Mr. Speaker, in accordance with the usual custom of the House, to rise to refute some of what he said, he simply walked straight out of the House and refused to face the music. Therefore, I do not apologise for not asking him to be present now.
  Let hon. Members observe what has happened to labour during the war, and particularly since the war began to take on a more serious phase with the invasion of Norway. It was noticeable to all those engaged in the production of munitions that no sooner had that terrible news come from Norway—before the present Government came into office—than there was an awakening throughout the workshops of this country such as I have never seen before. I noticed it with my own men, and my manager, when consulting managers in other local works and factories, found exactly the same thing.
  1844
  There was a sudden realisation by the people of this country that they had this war on their hands and that there was no time for slacking any more. That went on until the formation of the present Government. Let hon. Members notice the policy which was then adopted. Here were men working their very best—as I have never seen them working in the forty-five years of my experience of British workmen—working willingly and determinedly, knowing that they were up against it at last, and then the Minister of Labour introduced a policy involving, in some cases, hours of work up to 70 and 90 a week, and Sunday work at double pay, and Saturday afternoon work at double pay, and all that sort of nonsense—the sort of things that no man who knew anything about work would have even dreamed of introducing. And that killed the effort dead, and we have never recovered. And what, after all, does the right hon. Gentleman know about work? What experience has he to qualify him to direct the labour of hundreds of thousands of highly skilled engineers and their assistants? Ever since that policy was adopted, there has been the utmost difficulty in getting the fullest possible productive effort out of our workmen. I am not throwing the blame upon the workmen. Far from it. I am throwing the blame where it is due—upon the mistakes of policy of a Government which has again and again shown its total incapacity to understand the people of this country, and particularly the workers of this country.
  A very considerable portion of our contracts is still on a basis which is absolutely fatal to economic and full production; a considerable portion is based upon the wages cost of the job, plus a fixed percentage for standing charges. I venture to call attention to the Report of the Auditor-General, which was recently issued, in which he pointed out that in several cases there were standing charges of over 200 per cent., and in one case of over 300 per cent., on the total wages paid. For the information of the House, let me say that last year at my own works, engaged mainly on aircraft production and a certain amount of experimental work, the standing charges were 67.3 per cent. on the wages charge, and they will be very much less this year. Yet there are these gigantic sums of money dished out to utterly incompetent

  1845
  manufacturers in the form of standing charges on wages. Every man in those works, as I have pointed out again and again for six years, is in this position. Everybody, from the office boy upwards, knows that the less work done and the more wages paid, the better it will be for everybody about the works, and that the man who puts his best effort into the work and tries to save time is disloyal to his employer and deprives his employer of his hard-earned money.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: That is not true.
  Mr. Hopkinson: That is the position. That is why, in one works after another, I get complaints that nothing seems to be done during normal working hours, but that as soon as overtime, and particularly Sunday work, begins, everything seems to get a move on, because, without any intention or deliberate desire to cheat and rob the country, the whole atmosphere of the system is such that it is almost impossible for men, except of the highest and strongest character, to resist the influence of this absurd system. Those standing charges are not subject to taxation of any form or kind They simply mean that if a manufacturer runs up standing charges, he can employ at exorbitant salaries all his poor relations and all the people to whom he has obligations. That is what is happening. One has only to go into some aircraft works and look at the size of the office staff compared with what they are doing, and one must agree, if one has any experience of industry, that standing charges of not more than 120 per cent. at the outside on the wages bill should be ample to cover every standing charge in the industry. It should be remembered that one of the chief standing charges on industry in peace time is the cost of the selling organisation, the cost of the organisation required to sell the goods and bring new inventions to the notice of possible customers. All that has been done away with. The customer is there, the orders are there—more than can be taken. All of that most expensive item has been swept away. I maintain again that there is no excuse for these exorbitant standing charges.
  Let it be noted that those standing charges are calculated on grossly inflated wages; for wages in the munitions industry are grossly inflated, in spite of what hon.
  1846
  Members above the Gangway may say. Again and again, hon. Members of the Labour party say, "The workers of this country have sacrificed their all, they have given up everything for the sake of their country." I challenge any Member of the Labour party to give me a single specific example in which labour has sacrificed any mortal thing of any sort or kind without being paid up to the nose for it. I am making this speech in protest against the cant and humbug which are rife in the country and in the House. I hear that sort of nonsense from the Labour Benches, but from my close association with the workers in the North of England, I know that they resent it and loathe it. When the Minister of Labour, during the "blitz" period 18 months ago, used to say in the House, "You heroes of industry"—you fellows who are going as far as the refuges and then playing cards at double wages all night long—"you are the heroes of this war." That sort of thing is regarded with utter contempt by nine-tenths of the decent workers of the country.
  The trouble is this, that we are gradually rotting the very fibre of our people at the present time by the policy of the Government and the way these matters are now carried on. In Lancashire there is a sort of cynicism among the workers. They do not believe anything. They do not believe what they are told. Not very long ago, a Government speaker came to a town in my neighbourhood and, at a mass meeting of munition workers, said, "At any rate, this time you cannot say that your employers are getting away with it; there is the Excess Profits Tax." My informant told me that there was one yell of derision from that great audience. That shows the cynical way in which our workers are driven to regard their country and the war. I see the Home Secretary on the Treasury Bench. I should like to draw attention to his case as a cause of this cynicism. It is known to every member of this House what were his activities in the last war. Some Members have actually taken the trouble to preserve some of the leaflets which he wrote at that time and which I can only regard as rankly seditious. That Minister has the power to imprison me or any other Member of this House without charge or trial for an indefinite period for offences such as he was guilty of for a long period

  1847
  in the last war. That makes people absolutely cynical. A workman said to me not long ago, "This war began as a workers' war, a people's war, and the tragedy of it is that it is becoming a Government's war." That is unhappily true.
  The people, as I say, are cynical. They see all this appalling waste of money. They see all these scallywags—there is no other name for them—getting away with immense sums of money, some of them Members of this House, and notorious Members, who are getting incomes far in excess of anything they could earn by honest labour in normal peace time. When inquiries are made they never come to anything. The various committees which are set up get on the scent of something but they never follow it up. The fox goes to earth and the hunt goes home. If some of these Select Committees were to employ terriers they might possibly do more killing than they do at the present time. Take the example of the Ministry of Works and Buildings. Everybody knows from one end of the country to the other that that Ministry is a crying scandal at the present time. Again and again the trouble has been brought up in this House. But then some Member of the House who wishes to advertise himself has thought that there was something there that might give him a chance of self-advertisement with an ultimate view to office, and, as I have seen happen again and again in the last 20 years, a perfectly good case is ruined, as any good case can be ruined, by those who advocate it. Again and again those who are a disgrace to this country get away with it and you cannot break them because they are attacked by people such as those I have mentioned.
  That is the position. What are we going to to do about it? The first thing is for this House to give up the canting humbug such as it uses at the present time. Let the Prime Minister take the country into his confidence. Those of us who have known the Prime Minister for 40 years know his great qualities, but we know his weaknesses also. We know how he enjoys moving armies and fleets about the world. Like a child with a lot of tin soldiers he is never happier than when doing that. It is a quality of great importance during war, although it is a quality which needs
  1848
  very careful watching if big disasters are not to happen. Superficial studies of Marlborough's campaigns do not qualify a man to command the Fleet, the Army and the Air Force in person in actual warfare. I am the last person to do anything to weaken the position of the Prime Minister. I regard him as an absolute necessity to us at the present time. Suppose he does not return from the United States. Think of the stinking mess of political chaos and corruption that would confront us. Think of those people who believe they are going to be Prime Minister. Who are they? We can see them in this House, see them asking for the reversion of the job. I say, therefore, that as long as we can keep the Prime Minister going, in spite of himself, it is the duty of the House and the country to keep him going.
  Miss Rathbone: Why is the hon. Member doing his best to injure the right hon. Gentleman's prestige?
  Mr. Hopkinson: The right hon. Gentleman is in a very dangerous position. I see you looking at me, Mr. Speaker, as if I were getting wide of the subject of the Consolidated Fund Bill, but I think I can get back to it. I pointed out that our military disasters were largely due to deficiencies in number and quality in aircraft, tanks and guns. What man is responsible for that? Who was appointed by the Prime Minister to be in control with almost infinite powers over the whole of our aircraft production? The right hon. Gentleman appointed a man whose slimy trail has been across the whole public life of our country for the past 30 years.
  Mr. Speaker: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will moderate his language.
  Mr. Hopkinson: I think I am entitled to use metaphor. I am speaking purely metaphorically.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: The hon. Member was not speaking metaphorically when he was attacking the working-class.
  Mr. Hopkinson: The nobleman in question is said to possess a certain quality known as "dynamic energy." That is what we call it in this House and in the Press. In the United States of America they shorten it and they just call it

  1849
  "ballyhoo" and nothing else. I ask those who know anything about aircraft production to tell me, straight, whether we ever had anything while that man was at the Ministry of Aircraft Production and the Ministry of Supply but what can be termed "ballyhoo" and nothing else. Both those Ministries were thrown into chaos in order to produce advertising values of one sort and another. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer, when Secretary of State for Air, undoubtedly used those advertising values for the purpose of debate in this House. The figures he loved were those of so-called completed aircraft, and he had no affection for aircraft equipment or spare parts. It is no use a Minister coming to the House and saying, "I have So many gross of spare exhaust valves for Merlin III engines." It leaves the House of Commons cold. But if the whole of the labour and material which should have been devoted to these spares had been devoted to producing one air-frame, possibly without an engine, that would be good advertising value. That was the policy when the Chancellor was the Secretary of State for Air and it was developed by Lord Beaverbrook.
  I have pointed out what seems to me to be the fundamental mistakes of policy that force us to provide these gigantic sums of money for the use of the State during the war. The policy is making it inevitable that we shall go through a prolonged period of real suffering in this country when the war is over. We cannot go on consuming without producing on the present scale without having to pay for it sooner or later. Instead of providing funds to enable those who suffer from the rabbit complex to have large families, as we propose to do to-day, we should devote our attention to devising some means of reducing the population of this country to a figure which will enable the people to enjoy at any rate a reasonable standard of living without constant fear of want after the war. For this House to pass this Measure, as it proposes to pass it through to-day, without any inquiry, without any criticism, without any discussion, is an instance of this House neglecting its bounden duty to the people of this country, the duty of investigating how the money of the people is spent, whether it is wasted or whether it is devoted to its proper objects.
  1850
  There is a very much graver side to this matter, at which I have already hinted in the course of my remarks today, and that is the effect upon the morale and upon the very soul of this country when people see in positions of the highest power and responsibility men for whom they cannot but feel contempt. It is no use burking it. There are men in the highest positions for whom no man who knows anything of their career can feel anything but contempt and disgust, and when they see our Prime Minister, with the whole load of responsibility which he bears, and which we were glad to give him, constantly attacked in every way by a former colleague, his position undermined in the controlled Press, and every mortal thing done to make his task more difficult, I say it is time for this House to protest, even if we can only protest in the form of metaphors. Only this last week-end, in one place the Home Guard and the Fire Service and others were turned out to do honour to Lord Beaverbrook and enable him to put forward, once again, as he has been doing for months, his demand for more and bigger disasters.
  Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Keyes: I want to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer a way of cutting down the enormous expenditure which is being poured out day after day, and to suggest to the Government a way of putting a stop to a great deal of dissatisfaction and jealousy which prevails among working people. I have been about the country a good deal and have met it everywhere I go. I will not follow my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) in all his arguments, though I must say that I agree with a great deal that he said. I do not always agree with him, because I remember that whenever I try to get a Naval Air Service he at once rises to his feet—
  Mr. Hopkinson: After all, I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will realise that anyone with two wavy stripes seldom gets a chance of saying exactly what he thinks.
  Sir R. Keyes: Well, the hon. Member has said it to the Government as well as to an Admiral of the Fleet. The men of the three fighting Services get a moderate wage with family and other allowances, but even when taking all these into consideration they receive considerably less

  1851
  than men and women, boys and girls can earn in war industries at the present time, and so, apparently, do the miners. Those high wages are upsetting the whole balances of the country's wage standards and are causing dissatisfaction and unrest everywhere, and in addition they result in rising prices which make it very difficult for other people, including old age pensioners, to live. Why should not all the wages for National Service be stabilised in grades at a reasonable rate? It was done by the Labour party in Australia directly their country was threatened.
  Four years ago I suggested real National Service with a stabilised wage and family allowances, and allowances also for contractual obligations, so that people who had been thrifty should not be penalised. I did it again at the time of Munich; in fact, I would not support the Government at the time of Munich because I knew they were not going to make that effort which I considered was absolutely necessary. I did it again after the war began, and I have done it since. If the Government had had the courage to put such a measure into operation a good deal of the troubles we are experiencing to-day would have been avoided. The whole country would have accepted it loyally, particularly after Dunkirk, and now they would do so, I should say, after Tobruk, when things have been going badly. The country accepted conscription, in spite of a great deal of opposition, without any difficulty at all. Why should people be conscripted to fight whilst those in reserved occupations are left free to strike and to absent themselves? The fighting man works and fights the clock round. Why should we not put an end to all this inequality of sacrifice? Thousands of young men have died or are now in prison camps owing to the inferior equipment, and thousands more will die when this second front is launched. We do not deserve to win this war unless the people of the country as a whole make sacrifices comparable with those which our fighting men make for us.
  Mr. Tinker: Statements were made to-day by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) to which one ought to reply. First he said that we were wasting Parliamentary time by dealing with family allowances. Then he made a
  1852
  remark, which I resented very much, to the effect that last week we wasted a day in dealing with old age pensions. When I questioned him just now he said it was nothing but cant and humbug, that something like poor law assistance was being given to aged people and that therefore we should not waste time upon it. I resent such a statement being made by any responsible Member of this House. If we are to carry on the war successfully we must have regard to the many classes of suffering people in the country. If we disregard them as being of no consequence, ultimately the country must go down to defeat. I take the opportunity of saying that I thought Parliament used last Wednesday in a way that was a credit to the country by examining the position of old age pensioners in the hope that we could do something better for them. As to the other points in his speech, naturally he has a right to express his views, as everybody has, but what troubles me is that in one breath he was trying to praise the Prime Minister and in the next trying to pull the right hon. Gentleman right down to the bottom. It has neither been praise on the one hand nor open opposition on the other hand. If the hon. Member does not believe in the Prime Minister, I would rather he said so, but, as it is, he has only damned the right hon. Gentleman with faint praise.
  I hope to-day we shall have some regard to the present position of affairs. I do not want us, when we do come across a set-back or a defeat, to lose all control of ourselves and start blaming everybody. It is far better that we should realise that we are up against a most powerful and well-equipped enemy and that there will be occasions when we shall meet with reverses. The right thing for an Englishman to do then is to stand up to events and try to make them better for the future. Never let us give way to depression as we are doing now. I deplore what has happened in this Debate. Here are we, the people who as Members of Parliament should be telling the nation to have courage and endurance, acting as though we were beaten. [Interruption.] Yes, we are doing so. Well, that is how it appears to me. If it is not so, I am glad that I have brought out that retort. It appears to me that because we have suffered a reverse in Libya everybody is depressed and wandering what the next blow will do. Let me tell hon. Members

  1853
  this: We shall come through this struggle all right. We shall rise above this temporary set-back, and Britain, in my belief, will come out victoriously.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: I want to place on record my resentment at the speech of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson). I consider it was one of the most irresponsible and mischievous speeches I have ever heard delivered in this House. I claim to be in touch with the people of this country as much as any Member, and I know that they are far from feeling, as the hon. Member described. I resent very deeply the attack and the libel which he has just made upon the workpeople of this country. Never did workpeople work harder or longer than they are doing. His speech is an indication that he does not know British industry. He is managing—or he has others to manage—a factory which is not engaged in competitive industry such as that with which many of us were closely associated not very long ago. Had he been more in touch with industry, he would have known that workpeople are engaged upon the piece-work system, which was perfected in the competitive world before the war and that that determines the speed at which the workpeople work.
  The attack which he made upon the workpeople is unworthy of him and of this House and ought not to be made, particularly in the presence of representatives of other nations. The workpeople of this country have formed the core of British resistance. It was most unworthy of the hon. Member to attack them in the irresponsible way that he has done. Coming from the same district as he, I want to place on record my resentment, on behalf of the workpeople and the people of the country as a whole.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill immediately considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  NATIONAL SCHEME OF FAMILY ALLOWANCES.
  Wing-Commander Wright: I beg to move:
  1854
  "That this House, having regard to the supreme importance of further safeguarding the health and well-being of the rising generation, commends for the immediate consideration of the Government the institution of a national scheme of allowances for dependent children as an important contribution to this vital object."
  One could not help contrasting the speech of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Sir G. Hume) with that to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson). While we are all deeply moved by the heavy reverse which we have suffered in Libya, the advice which was given by the hon. Member for Greenwich that this House should continue with ordinary business instead of getting into a panic is the advice that we should follow. I feel fortunate in being allowed to open a Debate in respect of family allowances for dependent children. I am more than a little awed by the opportunity thus presented of introducing before this House a subject on which my hon. Friends and I are no longer a minority forcing on the Government an unwelcome proposal, but rather a majority giving expression to an enlightened social conscience which is shared equally by Members of all parties represented in the National Government Our task is not so much to convert the Government as to convince the administration, in which there are several pioneers in the advocacy of family allowances, that they will find support in this House from hon. Members for this first essential step towards a generous policy of social justice.
  There may be many other matters on which agreement among hon. Members may be found cutting across the boundaries of party and sectional interests, but I believe that no Measure will commend itself as well to the head as to the heart of Parliament as this recognition that parenthood is both a privilege to the individual and a service to the community. A good deal of publicity has been given to the fact that the Motion which I now bring forward is drawn in somewhat wider terms than my original Motion which received the support of no less than 200 Members of all parties. I want to make it clear to the House and the Government that the alteration of words has been adopted with the sole object of arriving at a substantial measure of agreement, so that a Debate upon this urgent and vitally important reform can

  1855
  take place in an atmosphere of good will and exploration rather than of acrimonious opposition.
  I find that most of the opposition to family allowances, such as it is, comes from those who have not very seriously studied the subject and are therefore ignorant of the arguments for and against. The change in the wording from the original Motion must not be taken as implying that we have in any way altered the very carefully considered views which we held and which were set out in the original Motion, nor that we have weakened in our resolve to press them upon the Government by every means in our power. There are two main points of difference between the two Motions.
  The first is that words:
  "national State-paid scheme of allowances."
  have been replaced by:
  "national scheme of allowances."
  The second is that we have omitted the words:
  "payable to their mothers and acting guardians."
  I would like to say a few words on those two points. If the scheme is national, which I understand means that it includes every child irrespective of the occupation of its parents, I suggest that the administrative difficulties of a contributory scheme would be such, that it would be much simpler to make it State-paid. I hope to show in my speech that the ultimate benefits of family allowances will accrue to the nation rather than to the individual, and for this reason therefore the cost should be borne by the State. Since everyone will be a beneficiary, it appears to me to be immaterial what form is taken by the tax which collects the money involved.
  The other point of difference from the wording of the original Motion is the omission of the words "paid to the mother." This, however, is regarded by myself and my hon. Friends who support me as being of the greatest importance for reasons which I shall develop presently. We believe that such a grant given as an honourable right to the mother, irrespective of position and means, will do more than anything else to produce that change of psychological outlook towards the production of children which is essential if this nation is to maintain
  1856
  its rightful place as a first-class Power. We hope that it may be one important step towards removing that dread of having a family which does exist and which, in so many cases, ruins the happiness of so many marriages. Its effect is now of national importance and we can no longer hypocritically afford to pretend ignorance of its existence. My hon. Friends and I believe that our case is unanswerable and that it only requires a Debate of this nature to win to our side even the most diehard reactionaries who persist in regarding family allowances as a form of vote-catching class legislation and who, because of their lack of study, fail to perceive the higher purpose in the maintenance of the future glory of our nation.
  The case for family allowances rests on the necessity for dealing, and dealing quickly, with three aspects of our national life. First there is the alarming fact that we are already in sight of the commencement of a decline in our population. Those hon. Members who have read the recent correspondence in "The Times" on this subject and the Command Paper containing the Memorandum by the Registrars-General of England, Wales and Scotland on the current trend of population in Great Britain must have been impressed by the urgent necessity for some stimulus for increasing our birth rate. Neither I nor any of my hon. Friends would suggest, or indeed desire, that the granting of an allowance of 5s. a week, or whatever sum might be necessary, should act as a bribe to parents to produce children against their own desires, but we do contend that it would create conditions in which a great number of parents, in all income grades, who, to-day, while ardently desiring children, deliberately refrain from producing them, would feel that that need no longer be the case. Letters I have received provide ample evidence that this is so.
  I would emphasise, at this point, what is frequently overlooked but what is, in fact, at the very root of my present argument. It is that poverty and wealth are not to be measured only vertically, that is as regards the relative positions of the man earning £4 a week and the man earning £10 a week; far more important does the relativity become when measured in a horizontal plane, namely, the difference between the position of two men earning the same amount of money, one of whom has a family while the other has

  1857
  avoided or has been denied one. No system of family allowances could ever take away from the fathers, and more particularly the mothers, that inborn natural urge to sacrifice themselves for their own flesh and blood. At best we can but encourage those who, through no circumstances of their own choosing, find parenthood so burdened with poverty as to be difficult. We can but encourage them by offering, in as generous a measure as possible, the reward of the country, to be given not as some niggard dole based on a means test, but as an earnest of the desire of their fellow-citizens to protect the institution of the family from the stigma of poverty and want. In this country of ours family ties have always been cherished, and we take a sentimental pride in our native understanding of all that is meant by the word "home"—a word that must mean more than ever today when so many fathers are defending, over the oceans and the deserts and jungles of the world, a way of life that puts the ideal of the family before the ideal of the State and merges patriotism into the conception of a family of nations, the British Commonwealth. How we honour the family will be better proved by how we help the family. Conditions of life and living in the last 100 years have so changed that we can no longer leave the whole financial burden of the nation's future population to be carried by the individual family, no matter what its position may be.
  The second aspect of our national life which must be dealt with is the fact that the greatest single factor in poverty is the size of the family and the number of children in the family. Social investigations carried out by Sir John Orr, Mr. Seebohm Rowntree and others proved that from 10 to 17 per cent. of working-class families—those including from 20 to 25 per cent. of the children—were living on incomes insufficient, however economically spent, for their maintenance, and therefore that the diet of from 20 to 25 per cent. of the children of this great country was deficient for proper health. That is a terrible indictment of our social system, and one which demands an immediate rectification by all who are offering more than lip service when they refer to the removal of social injustices. I only wish it were possible to estimate, even roughly, what the saving in the cost of our health and other social services would
  1858
  have been, had family allowances in the past given those children the proper start in life which this social injustice denies them.
  The third aspect is the economic one, and I cannot do better than quote from the Report on Reconstruction issued recently by the Federation of British Industries. I will quote but one passage:
  "Our 13th submission is that the power of the home market to consume the products of industry in the post-war period is an essential element in reconstruction. The Government should consider how this power can be maintained or developed."
  I submit that this particular method of redistributing wealth in family allowances, paid in cash, is of special value in maintaining and developing consuming power. It will help to bring into a proper perspective the production of the absolute necessities for a decent civilised life on the one hand, and, on the other, those luxuries and semi-luxuries which are the softer furnishings of our civilisation, and the production of which is highly desirable as an integral part of our advanced standard of living, but is only justifiable after the needs of those at the lower end of the scale have been justly satisfied.
  That is the case for family allowances as I see it, and it is gratifying to those of us who have advocated their adoption for so long to note the rapidly growing interest shown in the subject in every direction. Great strides forward have been made during the past year. It is only a little over a year ago since I tabled a Motion which, as the House knows, has had the support of over 200 hon. Members of all parties. But I should like to make it clear that this by no means represents the whole of the support in this House. A great many Members and right hon. Members who, for various reasons, felt unable to put their signatures to such a Motion at that time, nevertheless assured me that I had their full sympathy, and hoped that my hon. Friends and I would persist in our efforts to awaken interest on the part of the Government. Shortly afterwards, the Liberal party pronounced itself in favour of the proposal. Only a few weeks ago the Labour party expressed its opinion by a vote which left no room for doubt. Still more recently, and perhaps more surprisingly, there was a Debate in another place which showed complete unanimity.

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  One wonders where the opposition is. Let us see whether we can find the "nigger in the wood pile." As a result of the appearance on the Paper of that Motion my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer received a deputation and promised Ms an impartial investigation by his Department. The result of that investigation is the recently issued White Paper. This Memorandum is in many ways a disappointing document. One had hoped that there no longer remained a need to teach Treasury officials that the approach to the question of family allowances cannot successfully be made by what I call the "soup kitchen" mind. Such an approach has, however, been made and the result is this document which, from start to finish, is reminiscent of the outlook of the Poor Law of 1835. If proposals of this kind are to be branded from the outset with some form of means test few parents will be encouraged by the prospect of family allowances doled out by niggards. I cannot impress on my right hon. Friend in sufficiently strong language the necessity for ceasing to regard family allowances merely as an antidote to destitution, valuable as their contribution in that direction will be.
  There is, however, much information in the White Paper which is valuable. It gives us, at all events, the cost, but even in arriving at this, every advantage of present-day conditions has been taken in order to present the gloomiest possible picture. For instance, in computing the savings which would decrease the gross figure of £132,000,000, the Memorandum first assumes that the present low figure of unemployment will persist. I welcome this slight indication that the Government intend to take whatever steps are necessary to maintain employment at its present figure. If they do so then we need not be unduly worried at the prospect of the estimated cost of family allowances. In fact, their distribution, as I have already submitted, will be a substantial contribution to curing unemployment. Secondly, in arriving at the figure provision has also been made for paying the allowance for all the children of those in the Forces who already receive children's allowances. I am not grumbling at that if I can take it as an admission on the part of the Treasury that they agree with those of us who consider that increases for the serving
  1860
  men are long overdue. But if there is no intention of granting this increase, this procedure would appear to be merely an effort to strengthen opposition by making the scheme look as expensive as possible.
  When one is considering the cost of family allowances it is essential to consider also what will be the cost of going without them. The more I look at the two pictures, the more convinced I become that the only satisfactory method of dealing with the matter is to institute a State-paid scheme of cash allowances granted to all mothers, regardless of means or position. The principle has long been established for the wealthier classes, because I cannot agree that a rebate on Income Tax given because a man has children is not, in fact, a children's allowance. If my neighbour, with one child, pays 9s. 7d. a week less Income Tax than I do, with no child, he is in fact 9s. 7d. a week better off than I am, and better off than he would be if he had no child. His position is exactly what it would be if he received a child's allowance of 9s. 7d. a week in cash. But I agree with those who say that rebates on Income Tax should be kept outside the scope of family allowances. To link the two does, as pointed out in the White Paper, introduce serious complications. Family allowances should be granted as a right to the mother, and it is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer in framing his Budget to decide how and from whom he collects the money to pay the cost.
  I do not want unduly to detain the House but I would like to say one or two words about the objections which are most frequently raised to any scheme of cash allowances. Firstly, there is the old objection of the T.U.C. that it would hinder them in wage negotiations. I think, however, that it is generally agreed now that such would not be the case. It is an argument which could be produced against almost every advance in our social services, and in fact this has not happened in the past. Rather have increased wages and improvements in social services gone hand in hand. The overwhelming vote at the recent Labour Party Conference in favour of a State-paid scheme can be taken as finally disposing of this argument which, however, has been useful to those who are opposed to family allowances for very different

  1861
  reasons. Secondly, objection has been raised on the ground that the results could be obtained more efficiently and cheaply by extension of school meals, etc. This objection falls to the ground because it fails to deal with the children under five—after all a most important period in the child's life. It fails to deal with holiday periods, and Sundays, and with sickness. It would cost a great deal in the provision of accommodation and services. I need only draw attention to the fact that even now, in spite of all efforts, the proportion of school children receiving meals is still small.
  Thirdly, there are those kindly, but misguided, people who imagine that they can run the British working man's home so much better than his wife can, and who, therefore, feel that she cannot be trusted to handle money. There are, of course, bad parents in all grades of society. There are laws under which these can be dealt with, laws which are much more likely to be implemented if proper children's allowances are paid by the State. But I fail entirely when I try to fathom the minds of those—and some do exist—who think that the British workman is the fellow to handle the bayonet, to man the tank, to work in the factory or mine—and no absenteeism, please—but that he is not to be trusted with money in his home, for he will surely rob his children, drink the money, and return to beat up his wife. These people fail to see that the only certain result of their policy is to weaken the manliness and character of our race, by this steady process of transferring the responsibility of the family unit from the individual to the State. Lastly, there are those whose objection lies purely in the cost. They represent that fast-dwindling minority who still think of post-war peace in terms of the pre-war economic inequality and strife. My only hope of gaining their support is to persuade them that only by the maintenance and development of the consuming power of the masses can there be prosperity for anyone at all. To put it on the lowest level, it is good business to pay family allowances, and I recommend those who think otherwise to read the Memorandum on Reconstruction issued by the Federation of British Industries.
  Finally, I ask my right hon. Friend to stand up to his own Department. His fight lies there, not with this House, or
  1862
  with the country. I urge him to give this matter immediate consideration, for there is no time to lose. The Government have appointed the Beveridge Committee to report on the reorganisation of social insurances. That subject can be tackled efficiently only against a background of family allowances. Once settle the principle of family allowances, and the task of this Committee is enormously simplified: the present chaotic anomalies disappear. I assure my right hon. Friend that he has a great opportunity to his hand. At one blow he can solve the most complicated side of the work of the Beveridge Committee and at the same time take a big step forward towards the cure of unemployment, which will be the major problem of the Government in the post-war period. My right hon. Friend, if he will take my advice, may yet grow in stature, by adding to his present reputation for interest in social improvement, the reputation of having proved himself a surprisingly astute Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Miss Rathbone: I beg to second the Motion, so admirably moved by my hon. and gallant Friend.
  Long ago that great woman Beatrice Webb told me that in this country it usually took 19 years for a new idea to germinate and bear fruit. That estimate has been fulfilled in the case of several of the most noted social reforms. I hope it is true of family allowances, because, if so, they are overdue. In 1918 a few of us produced a small book which dropped the seed of the idea into a few minds, and in 1925 I wrote a bigger book called "The Disinherited Family," which focused the attention of economists and of a good many other people. But while Britain ruminated, other countries acted. In the '20's New South Wales and New Zealand adopted schemes of State-paid allowances. The Federal Government of Australia and the Government of practically every country in Europe introduced family allowances for their Civil Services. Industrial schemes grew up all over Europe, and in 1921 they became compulsory in Belgium and France. We think more slowly. I used to tell my younger colleagues that if one wanted to bring about any social reform one needed the patience and perseverance of Bruce's spider, the importunate widow, the

  1863
  Ancient Mariner, and the giant Sysiphus rolled into one. But patience can be overdone. We have a right now to be impatient—not for ourselves, but for the children.
  How many more generations are to grow up with stunted bodies and minds, while political parties are letting "I dare not" wait upon "I would," while trade union leaders are considering whether if they grant security to the children it will diminish by one per cent. their chance of using the children's needs as an argument for higher wages, and while employers and capitalists are considering just how cheaply they can buy off the workers? We know that that kind of consideration is what will induce my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell us that we must wait until the autumn, until the Trades Union Congress has ratified the favourable decision of the Trades Union Congress General Council, and until the Beveridge Committee's report appears. We can wait until the autumn. But, what then? Are we to be told then that we must wait until after the war, when the electorate may have chosen, as they did in 1918, a Parliament of "hard-faced men, looking as if they had done well out of the war," who can be trusted to deal with inconvenient demands. Or shall we be offered a war-time scheme, but one devised in what the Mover has called the soup kitchen tradition, giving just enough to soothe sensitive consciences by blunting the sharpest edge of poverty? That will not be enough. We want a scheme which will fulfil all three purposes set out by my hon. and gallant Friend the mover of this Motion: to get rid of child poverty, to do away with the danger of a steep decline in population, and to give a stimulus to the consumption of home-made necessaries as against imported luxuries. I will add a fourth purpose. We want children and their mothers to be recognised not as de-pendants hung around the necks of their fathers and husbands but as human beings, with their own feet on the floor of God's earth and their heads in the sunshine—and more sunshine than is allowed now to trickle through the windows of their dingy and overcrowded homes.
  May I expand just a little my hon. and gallant Friend's exposition of their purposes? He wants to get rid of child
  1864
  poverty, and he has reminded the House of the well-known figures, based on numerous pre-war sociological surveys, which show that one-quarter of the children of this country are living in homes where the income of the father, however economically expended, is not enough for bare necessaries. Actually the latest of these surveys—that of Mr. Seebohm Rowntree—puts the figure higher than that. He found that nearly half the children in working-class families were born into households of that kind. Add to that Sir John Orr's well-known computation that a quarter of all the children not only those of the working-class belong to families where the total income works out at about 10s. per head per week, and where the food can only cost 4s. per week per head. Four shillings to cover the cost of meals for an entire week! And yet when a maximum price of 5s. is put on a restaurant meal, we call it austerity. We want to get rid of poverty of that sort.
  But if we are to fulfil the second purpose—to avoid the danger of a steeply declining birth-rate—we have to go further than that. I have not time to give the controversial and complicated figures bearing upon trends of population. Hon. Members ought to read two admirable letters in to-day's "Times" which give some of them. I will only mention three undisputed facts. First, that during the last decade we have had the lowest birthrate of any country in Europe, except Sweden; secondly, that, according to the new White Paper on population trends, our present reproduction rate falls short by 25 per cent. of the amount necessary to maintain a stationary population; thirdly, the enemy Powers and most other nations are making frantic efforts at present to stimulate their birth-rates and increase their populations. We alone seem to have no thought-out population policy. Is not this rather a repetition of what happened during the last decade about our munitions policy—too little, and too late? But there is one difference between munitions and children. You can speed up the production of munitions, but you cannot speed up the production of an adult man and woman. That takes from 18 to 20 years. I beg the House to ask themselves this question: Is it really safe, with our far-flung responsibilities, that the proportion of the Anglo-Saxon race, compared with almost every other

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  race, certainly every other white race, should continue to be a steadily diminishing proportion?
  If we want to stop that trend it is not enough to remove poverty. It is not pure selfishness that induces parents with rather above the average standard of life to hesitate to bring children into the world unless they feel sure that they can not only provide them with enough food to satisfy hunger, but can give them a standard of frugal comfort not inferior to that which they themselves enjoyed and which they see being enjoyed all round them by those with smaller families than themselves. That is why families of one or two children have become the fashion. You will not stop that being the fashion only by a State paid scheme of 5s. per child or any other figure we are likely to get. But a State-paid scheme would help and could be supplemented by schemes of mutual insurance, compulsory or voluntary, of which there are already several in the Universities and the Churches of all denominations. In respect of the third purpose—an assured market for home-produced industries—is it not obvious that these kinds of goods are just those upon which family allowances would mainly be spent, on dairy produce, vegetables and fish, on woollen and cotton textiles, boots and coal—and that others who find the money would have to spend a little less than at present upon wines, spirits and tobacco, upon betting and upon luxuries of food, travel and clothing?
  That leads up to the consideration of the difficulty which seems to stick most in the minds of those who still hesitate whether to support this project. It is the fear that the country cannot afford it. They have been studying the figures in the Treasury White Paper, and they are startled at the amount which a family allowance scheme on a big scale would cost. Do not these doubters realise that whatever the cost, it is not going to be a fresh burden on the back of the State but rather a transfer of purchasing power from those who because of their larger incomes or smaller families can now afford luxuries to those who because of their large families go short of bare necessaries?
  Major Petherick: The hon Lady has made a statement which is entirely unsupported
  1866
  by any evidence. Will she be good enough to give some figures in support of what she has said?
  Miss Rathbone: I am not sure what figures the hon. and gallant Member means. I am merely stating what in a sense is a platitude, that if you have a State-paid scheme you pay for it by taxation, and you have to get that taxation out of somebody's pocket. I am suggesting that this involves a transfer, through the taxation system, of some of the purchasing power from the pockets of those who are more well to do to those who are less well to do. The mover has shown that the scheme involves to some extent a redistribution of wealth, though only on a small scale—both vertically and horizontally—a vertical redistribution as between rich and poor and a horizontal redistribution as between those on each level of income according to whether they have or have not children to support.
  My fourth claim is based on justice. How can anyone really defend a social system which allots no more of the nation's income to a family of whatever size than that which accrues to a single wage-earner? When we think in terms of a State-paid scheme we are not asking that the father of a family should receive more as part of his remuneration as a wage-earner, but that his children should receive a little share, of the national income, given to them not in respect of their father's service in industry but in respect of their own value to the community as its future citizens and workers I particularly do not want my admission that our scheme may involve a certain amount of distribution of resources even within the wage-earning class to be misinterpreted into an admission that it will impede wage negotiations and react unfavourably upon wage rates. I challenge hon. Members to produce the name of a single committee or responsible body that has gone really carefully into this question which has accepted that argument.
  The Joint Committee of the T.U.C. and the Labour party in 1930 gave nearly a year's discussion and examined all manner of evidence. Then, later, there were committees of the Labour and Liberal parties and the Co-operative Congress, and all arrived at the same conclusion—that there was no fear of that kind and that on the whole a family allowances system, if it was State-paid and did not put the

  1867
  burden on industry, would improve the position of wage-earners because it would enable workers to become stronger and more effective trade unionists if they were no longer distracted by the anxieties and sufferings of a poverty-stricken home. There are still a few trade union leaders who do not accept that conclusion and who still believe that family allowances would react unfavourably on wage rates. It is curious that they hardly ever give us their reasons. Is it because they are ashamed to confess that they still want to fight the battle for higher wages from behind the petticoats of their children, or is it that they do not want the workers to get any advantages except through trade union action? If so, those are mean reasons and reasons which, logically interpreted, apply equally to all recent improvements in social reform. Some of them indeed seek to make a distinction between payments in cash and kind. They contend that extended social services to children would not injure wage negotiations but that cash allowances would do so. Personally, I believe it is rather the other way, because the vagueness as to the extent and value of social services in kind leads well-to-do people to form an over-estimate of their value. How often have I been met at meetings of middle-class audiences with the argument, "But the poor have so much done for them already; do not their children get free meals at school?" I have found it difficult to get them to believe that in pre-war days only 2 per cent. of the child population in any one day received school meals. The percentage is rather higher now.
  But as the proposal in favour of communal services rather than cash has attained considerable popularity lately, let me argue from another angle. What about its practicability? The school authorities said the other day that their target, which they did not hope to achieve for some months, was to be able to give school dinners to 1,000,000 children—one-fifth of the elementary school population. How long will it take to extend them to the other four-fifths? What about the days on which the schools do not meet, holidays and children below school age? I believe school dinners are excellent things—I hope they will be largely extended—but what about the cost? Last week I received a Parlia-
  1868
  mentary Reply giving the average cost of a school dinner as 8d. Therefore, a 5s. allowance in cash would be roughly equivalent to a school dinner every day of the week. I think that a capable working-class mother would be able to produce more than one meal a day for that sum—
  Mr. Colegate: This is a very important point. Is the hon. Lady proposing to stop school meals?
  Miss Rathbone: Certainly not. I would like to see school meals extended. I was only pointing out that it would be a slow process and that it is not a cheaper method than cash allowances. The domestic fire is always burning and a mother's services are unpaid, and I believe that any intelligent working-class mother would be able to get more than seven meals a week out of 5s. Let us be frank about it. This preference for communal feeding has its roots in distrust of the working-class mother, that much-abused woman who is a modern counterpart of the ancient Israelites. Society harries and scolds her if she does her job badly, yet it does not give her the materials to do the job well. Just as Pharaoh said to the ancient Egyptians,
  "There shall no straw be given you for your bricks, yet shall ye deliver the tale of bricks,"
  now this hard-pressed woman is threatened with a slap in the face, a public demonstration that she and she alone is not thought fit to spend money for the benefit of her own children. I have not heard a proposal from any quarter that old age pensions or unemployment assistance should be paid through a system of coupons or free meals. Speaking from long experience and observation, I trust the working-class mother. I believe she is the best judge of the individual needs of her own children.
  In conclusion, I foresee that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will tell us that our proposal will be considered, but that is all. Well, I beg him to take into consultation some of those who have been thinking about this subject not for a few weeks but for years, and who have pondered it from every angle and taken every kind of evidence from home and abroad. Do not leave it to two or three civil servants or armchair theorists. Above all, do not in the end produce a mean

  1869
  little scheme bound up with red tape, penurious towards its beneficiaries, but prodigal in expenditure on hordes of official and multitudes of forms to be filled up. Cannot the Government read the signs of the times? Do they not realise that what the public are longing for is bold and imaginative leadership, actions, not words, actual proof that the promise of the Atlantic Charter will be fulfilled, the promise of freedom from want and fear? There could be no more striking and convincing proof of that than the immediate introduction of a general State-aided scheme of family allowances, payable to the mother. That would relieve the children from want and their parents from fear. I beg the Government to give us, at least, early hope of a scheme like that and, in conclusion, I make an appeal to my friends in the Labour party and trade unions. Be a little more zealous in pressing this reform. Do not give us any reason to suspect that some of you are more zealous for the rights of old age pensioners, because they are voters than for the rights of your own wives and children. Be insistent in asking for this thing and see that you get it.
  Mr. James Griffiths: Both the mover and seconder of this Motion have made reference to the trade union movement and their impending conference and also to the fact that recently, at the annual conference of the Labour party, a resolution in favour of family allowances was carried by a large majority. It was my privilege to be chairman of the sub-committee of the National Executive of the Labour party which was charged with the task of reviewing this problem of family allowances in conjunction with, and in the setting of, the general scheme of social services in this country.
  Eventually it fell to my lot, and it was my privilege, to present our conclusions in the form of a resolution to that annual conference, which was carried by a large majority. I think I ought to say, in fairness to my colleagues, particularly in view of the words which I was sorry to hear fall from the lips of the hon. Lady who seconded the Motion—I have a great regard for her qualities and the services she has rendered, and I fully appreciate that she has given a lifetime study to this matter—that those in the trade union movement do not approach this problem
  1870
  with prejudiced minds. It is our business to relate it to the wider problems of social services and wages.
  Miss Rathbone: I was appealing rather to those who are not here than to those who are. I know there are many strong supporters within Labour circles.
  Mr. Griffiths: I and my colleagues do not approach this matter as a problem which can be completely isolated. It is part of the poverty problem. It arises from the fact that there are large numbers of people in this country, men, women and children, who do not receive incomes in any form which are sufficient to safeguard the well-being and health of adults and the children depending on them. Put very simply, it means that, even in these days and at this hour, there are large numbers of people who do not get enough to eat, who are badly clothed and live in miserable houses, and who are denied most of the amenities and comforts of life. We shall never have a real nation of whom we can be proud until we have conquered the poverty problem, and what we are discussing to-day is one aspect of that problem. I wish to stress that the poverty problem is not confined to families with children. There are single persons in poverty and husbands and wives with no children in poverty.
  I support these proposals and commend them to the House and the Government, and I do so with the support of the Labour party Conference behind me. At the same time, I wish to make it clear that we do so with the knowledge that there will still be a poverty problem left. What is the special kind of problem with which we think family allowances will deal? I can do no better than to refer to our resolution. We say that wages in many industries have never been sufficient to keep families with children, and that by every addition to the family the standard of living of the family, already inadequate, is lowered and forced down. That is the problem. The problem is that each additional child drives the family down into greater poverty. That, in our view, is the problem with which family allowances are best fitted to deal.
  A research into this problem has been made by Mr. S. Rowntree, and the results of his survey of the life and conditions in York in 1936 have been published. The year 1936 was not one of the

  1871
  worst years in this country, and not one of the best; it was a moderate year in the 10 years from 1930–40. I think it will be accepted therefore that the City of York can be described as a fair average of British industrial towns. York is not one of the depressed areas. If, for example, the analysis had been made in the division represented so adequately by my hon. Friend the Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) these figures would be very much on the high side. In York, unemployment was below the average of the country. It is, therefore, a fair sample. The second factor which will be accepted without question is that the measuring stick which was utilised by Mr. Rowntree and his assistants is the bare minimum. He took an income for a husband and wife and three children as 43s. 6d. per week, excluding rent. No hon. Member would object that that standard is too high; in my view it is too low. It means £2 3s. 6d. for clothing, food and incidental expenses, fuel and all the other things, for a family of five. He believed it to be the minimum standard on which a family of five could be kept in mere subsistence. Using that measuring stick in a city like York, he found on that test that 31 per cent. of the working population were below that standard. York is a fair sample of a British industrial town, and has no history of depression like part of the country which I represent.
  Mr. Rowntree goes further—and this brings us to the problem with which we have to deal—and seeks to analyse why one-third of the population of York were below the minimum. He discovered that 16 per cent. of them were below the minimum because they were old age pensioners and the pensions were inadequate, that 28 per cent. of the third were below the minimum because they were unemployed and the benefits and allowances were inadequate, that 9·5 per cent. were below the minimum because they were either engaged in casual employment or were working on their own account, and, finally, that of the one-third 32 per cent., or nearly one-third of the third, were in full-time employment and were below the standard after receiving wages for a full week's work. The consequences of that are also illustrated by Mr. Rowntree. If you take that section who are below that line because their wages are inadequate,
  1872
  the consequences to the children are set out in these striking figures Ninety-six per cent. of the children in those families remain below that minimum in poverty for the first three years of their life, 89 per cent. remain in poverty below that figure for five years, 66 per cent. remain below it for nine years of their childhood, and 49 per cent. remain below it for 13 years of their childhood. Nothing that we can do subsequently can in any way eradicate the effects of those 13 years of poverty. Through all our public services, whether national or local, or both combined, what we do is to try and salvage the results of the effects of poverty upon childhood which we cannot eradicate afterwards. We believe, therefore, that here is an aspect of the problem of poverty which needs solution, and we believe that a real effort ought to be made to settle it now.
  Having given the reasons why we are satisfied that this kind of problem can best and most quickly be settled by family allowances, let me now deal with our approach to it. We believe that, short of a fundamental change in our economic system, the problem of building up a standard which will prevent our people falling into poverty can be approached in three ways which are already in some degree a feature of our social services. First, we believe that we ought to build up a national minimum for all our people, expressed in terms of a national minimum wage, below which no one shall fall. Secondly, we believe that the constructive social services have an important and increasing part to play in the conquest of poverty. One of the things I want to avoid, because I think it is a wrong approach entirely, is to have a controversy as to whether this method or the constructive social services method is the better. We ought to regard them as supplementing each other and not as being in competition. I was interested to hear an interjection from the benches opposite during the speech of the hon. Lady who seconded the Motion, with regard to the provision of meals. I have known even that opposed in the House.
  Major Petherick: I am sure the hon. Member does not wish to misrepresent those who interrupted the hon. lady. She was arguing, as I understood it, that free meals were wholly uneconomic, and the inference that we got was that it was better

  1873
  to pay 5s. a week for each child. We interrupted to ask if she was in favour of doing away with free meals.
  Mr. Griffiths: I want these services developed completely. I have here a return issued by the Board of Education of what we are doing in this respect. The percentage of the school population in the third year of the war who are receiving meals at school is 14. That indicates that there are still vast numbers who are outside the benefit of these social services. We believe that the best way is to develop this in a co-ordinated system of social services, not separating family allowances from the rest of the social services, and our resolution at our annual conference said that family allowances ought to have a place in the social services because they are the best and quickest way of solving the problem.
  May I say a word or two about our scheme? We will not accept a scheme which is not available to every child in the country. Once you depart from that principle, you introduce class distinctions into the social services which will undermine them. You have it already. I have heard of little children dividing themselves into "free milkers" and others. [Interruption.] It is our duty to try and prevent them from being snobs. There is one thing that I hope has been killed by the war, and that is snobbery. In any case we need to keep that kind of mentality outside our social services. We believe, therefore, that this payment ought to be made for every child in the country from the date of birth until it leaves school and that the whole cost of the scheme must be met from the Exchequer. The fear felt by the trade unions of this proposal largely arises from the fact that so many schemes have been put forward on a contributory and industrial basis which the trade unions would resist to the end. We propose in our scheme that the payment should be 5s. each per week from the date of birth to the date when they leave school. We provide that this allowance paid to every child should be substituted for the first 5s. of children's allowances in any other public scheme. There are other schemes where the children's allowances are higher. We also propose that it should be in substitution for the children's allowances now made under the provisions of the Budget. As it happens, our estimate which was made
  1874
  before the publication of the White Paper, does not vary very much from the Treasury's estimate. We arrived at an all-in gross estimated expenditure of £127,000,000, and we arrived at an estimated saving of £40,000,000, leaving a net cost of from £85,000,000 to £90,000,000.
  There is, then, the question of how we are to get the money. We have said quite clearly that it must come from the Exchequer and, therefore, from taxation. The Budget must be used to finance this scheme as a method of policy which will have to be adopted in this country. All hon. Members are joined together in our great effort, and therefore, speaking frankly, let us admit that, of course, there must be a redistribution of income in this country, either through the medium of this Parliament and the Chancellor, or in another way. [HON. MEMBERS: "What other way?"] The people will find the other way. I express the hope that the people of this country will not in the next 20 years put up with the inequalities of the last 20 years. For the reasons I have given, we must solve this problem of poverty from the standpoint of equity.
  Let me give another reason. The war will come to an end some day, and we shall be faced with colossal human problems. I believe they can be solved, but if we are to face them, if Britain is to build for herself a place in the post-war world worthy, if you like, of her past and worthy of her people, that place will not be built with an impoverished people. It can be done only if there is a people removed above the fear of want and poverty. My party believes that we must build up in this country a comprehensive scheme of social services that will prevent our people falling below poverty. Our children are our greatest treasure and our greatest asset. In the course of the war, tens of thousands of them are being brought up in poverty, denied adequate food and clothing and decent shelter. The marks of that poverty will be left on their bodies, minds and souls. Those children will have to fight the battles of to-morrow. I have always done everything I could, inside the House and outside, and will continue to do so to the end, to give all support to winning the war, which has to be won, but I want to do something more than win the war—for I have seen another

  1875
  war won in my generation. This time I want to win the peace, too. If we are to do that we must now take steps to provide for our people and our children conditions of life that will give them the physique, the mind and body, the soul and spirit, to face those great problems. It is because I believe the proposal embodied in this Motion can make a contribution to that end that I support it.
  Mr. MacLaren: I am glad to have this opportunity of intervening in the Debate. The speech we have just heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) brought to light the point I wish to stress. My hon. Friend said that no sane person will tolerate the maldistribution of wealth after this war as it has been tolerated before, and he went on to say that the way of dealing with this unjust distribution of wealth is through the machinery of the Treasury—
  Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: The only constitutional way.
  Mr. MacLaren: Or, he said, another way—to that remark there was a sharp reaction from the other side of the House. Hon. Members asked, "What other way?" Then there was a hiatus, a silence. To my mind that was very significant in this House. There is another way, and may I, without wishing to stress the high principle too much, remind hon. Members of what is called natural law, God's eternal natural law? If men conformed to that, there would be another way than conforming to the bureaucratic, hamstringing methods of the Treasury. That is the point I want to stress. We are discussing poverty. Why is it that some men cannot keep their children? To hear the champions of these family allowances, one would think that in some strange way God had upset the balance of things and seen that those with children would not have His gifts to keep the children alive until some genius arrived in this House to devise a scheme which the Treasury could substitute for God's law. This is a poverty problem, and poverty is not God-made, but man-made. It exists because the laws of man, made in this House, are not in conformity with God's eternal natural law. They have been made to defend certain narrow outlooks and, I am sorry to say, private vested interests.
  1876
  When we are faced with poverty, distress, malnutrition among children, bad housing, is it a sane policy to run along the line of bureaucratic dispensations? That is what I want to ask my hon. Friends on these benches. There is not a Member on this side of the House who does not admit that the reason the workers of this country cannot maintain their children is that wages are too low for a start. Who in this House will suggest that they are such wiseacres in the Treasury that they know best how to distribute the wealth of the country? Every time there is an economic problem raised in the House, we either set up a commission of inquiry or go to the Treasury. What do the Treasury say? [An HON. MEMBER: "Nothing."] Yes, they do; they say, "You want so many millions, do you? Who is to pay?" Do not forget that, under the present canons of taxation, every time you make an appeal to the Treasury for more money it redounds on the workers. It is only those who produce the wealth of this country that pay the taxation of the country. Therefore, when we come to a proposition such as that moved by the hon. Lady—I see that she is not present now. What a pity. I wish she had stayed. For years she has wasted her life advocating family allowances. I suppose that is a good enough substitute for the absence of a family.
  Mrs. Tate: That is a very poor remark.
  Viscountess Astor: May I say, as the mother of many children, that some of the best work for children that has been done in this country has been done by women who have had no children?
  Mr. MacLaren: I did not mean the remark offensively, but I have noticed that people who have no children are often apt to dictate to those who have. Let me come to the main point. We are being asked to do something for the children. I am against the Government doing for my children that which I think I ought in justice to do myself. I never believed that the State is a better parent than the parent who is responsible for his children, and I think it is a danger to the stability of family life if we bring in Chancellors of the Exchequer to decide family domestic affairs. I would ask those people who are anxious to do some-

  1877
  thing for the family one or two questions. We have heard to-day that where there is one child or two or perhaps three there is what is called distress in the family. Why is that? The wages of the man are more or less static, if he is in employment. He will want more house room if he has children, and an increase of family means increased housing requirements, which means increased rent and especially increased rates. I would ask the House, if it really means to do something to relieve the man who is producing children, whether it will give him better houses for less rent. Will it modify the cost of high rents and abolish the system which penalises a man when he wants more housing for his children, namely, high rates? Would any one in the House say "no" to that? Does the House really mean to do something to remove economic pressure from the man who has a family?
  In this House day in and day out for years, until I got tired of it, I kept hinting at the causes that were striking a blow at family life in this country, namely, high rents and high rates. They are the curses on the people. It will not cost the Treasury anything to remove the rates from houses. Will anyone in the House support a proposal that in order to help an increase in families, rates on houses be abolished? That would not be a bad start. It would not mean an army of bureaucrats running round finding out how many children you have, how many are yours and how many are not. Will the House do more than that? Will it see that all impediments to employment are removed so that unemployed men will not beg for the jobs of those who are in employment? If that were done wages would rise; otherwise wages would not rise, except when there is a war on. My own experience is too bitter for me ever to forget it. I had a mother who tried to rear a family, but met with disaster. There is nothing more terrible than when poverty strikes a house and those who are in it know that there is a better life than the one they are living. I shall never forget when the rates were knocking at our door. We could have managed to pay the high rental, but when the rates came on top of it, it plunged our household into absolute misery.
  People have condoned in the past those things which have created the maldistri-
  1878
  bution of wealth so that those who produce the wealth are the least considered; and Parliament is always defending vested interests against any encroachment of high wages. I will not touch on the land question because hon. Members know where that would lead, but it is basic to this question. Primitive communities like those in Egypt and Africa do not look for family allowances because they can go to God's earth and get what they want. It is in a country like this, where the people are barred from the use of God's natural gifts, that we cannot keep our children and have to run to the Chancellor as a substitute. I would ask those who are advocating family allowances whether if they are serious they will do something to mitigate the circumstances of those who have children by removing those exactions of high rates upon houses and those other political and economic tendencies which make families in this country almost an impossibility.
  I cannot sit down without making reference to a letter that appeared in "The Times" from Sir William Beveridge—the sweetest of names. I never see it but I feel as if something ought to be done about this gentleman. He is one of the most dangerous bureaucrats walking, about in our time. What does he say in his letter to "The Times"? It is the quintessence of economic wisdom.
  "The greatest cause of poverty in this country is young children."
  Does anyone in the House believe that? Yet this man is the inspirer of the economic wisdom of the Government—I never meet a university professor but I want to run round looking for a loaded revolver. This gentleman has taken the place of my dear old friend Sidney Webb. He works with the greatest industry but always on wrong premises. He reminds me of what Buckle said about the Scottish clergy of the 16th century, that there were no men more erudite, but, having started on wrong premises, the greater their erudition the greater their ignorance. So it is with these people.
  What is the meaning of a child appearing in life? It means an increase in the human family. Is that a curse? Because that is what Sir William Beveridge says.
  Major Procter: A child may be a contributory cause. The hon. Member has not defined what poverty is.

  1879
  Poverty consists not in what you have but in the fewness of your wants, but if you have very little and a number of children your poverty becomes very acute.
  Mr. MacLaren: I am sure that Sir William Beveridge will thank the hon. Gentleman for that aid to his hands. Sir William says that the greatest cause of poverty is young children. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read on."]
  "The relatively high standard of health shown by children in the last war was in part a result of the system of separation allowances."
  The deduction is clearly that if you have not family allowances children are a curse. That is the logic of it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I shall have to read this two or three times until the logic of it can penetrate some people's heads. Each new entrant into the human family means that there is a fresh demand for the things necessary to gratify human desires. Each new child is a blessing, or at least ought to be, in the human community, but this professor says the opposite. I say with all due reverence and with no flippancy that not only does God bring on to this earth human beings with an insatiable desire for the things he has provided for human beings, but that He has given them the physical power to create and to produce the things necessary to gratify human desires. There is God's economy—the creation of human beings with the physical power to produce the things they require from the earth.
  Is there anything in that arrangement which should bring about a state of affairs where some children create poverty? Is it the children that are the cause of the poverty? Is it the increase in families that creates poverty? Is it the increase in families and the lack of family allowances from the Treasury that gives us family poverty? The hon. Lady who spoke a few moment's ago spoke of "child poverty." Child poverty. Good God. Have we sunk to this depth, that children are the cause of poverty, and the only way to escape that poverty is to commit the entire community to receiving a contribution of 5s. a week from the Treasury, or commit human suicide! I was rather interested to see that the 5s. is not to be for those only who are in distress. Oh, no, it is to be 5s. for everybody, so that there will be no class distinction. What a fake and fraud this is.
  1880
  Primitive men would laugh if they could come into the House now and found us trying to substitute for justice some arrangement of family allowances.
  We have Debate after Debate on old age pension schemes and on other expensive mitigating schemes from the Treasury. Let there be no mistake about this. I make a special appeal to my colleagues on the Labour benches to consider what will happen if we continue along the road we are going of more pensions and more payments to young children. There is not a man among them who is not against bureaucratic control of the family life of the people, but if we continue along this line of making the State pay for our children, making the State the dominant factor, as it were, in the destinies of our families, then later the State will tell us what they are going to do with our families. The choice before us is whether we will pursue the road that will lead to harmony and social equality in society, conserving freedom within the State, a system in which we destroy privilege and monopoly and leave a man to grow up and develop as a man, or whether we leave monopoly and privilege to run their course and substitute for the justice, bureaucratic administration and State domination. As sure as God is in Heaven that way lies in the direction of that which we are now denouncing, Nazi-ism, State control, State counting the mere heads of people, State domination of the destinies of the people.
  I have been perhaps a little too hot on this subject, but it means so much to me. It means to me the destruction of all that we in this country have laboured to build up. If England were to pass out of account to-morrow and become a shadow on the pages of history, the one thing that would hold her name dear in the memory of man would be that she forged the British Constitution. The British Constitution was the contribution of this civilisation of ours to the advancement of human thought. What is implied in our Constitution? It is this, that the poorest shall be equal, with the wealthiest or the most powerful within the State, to impress his or her opinion or intention upon the laws and the rules that regulate the life of the country. It is the only instrument so far forged by man that will give peaceful evolution in society and raise men to a higher level without disruption and rebel-

  1881
  lion. If that is destroyed, if that is sapped, if our British Constitutional practice is constantly weakened and falls to pieces, then the only thing that can take its place is blood and revolution. This constant giving of greater power to the bureaucracy, this greater control of bureaucratic machinery over the lives of our people is gradually sapping the interests of the common citizen of this country in the development of the British Constitution. That is the danger. To me that is more terrible than anything I know. [Interruption.]
  I ask for no support anywhere. All I ask for is what you are so far privileged to grant me, Mr. Speaker, the liberty to speak in this House. It will cease to be a debating Chamber if men will only stand a chance of speaking in proportion to the cheers they get from anywhere. Let us hope that this House will long do everything it can to preserve and strengthen this rare thing called the British Constitution, so that we inspire the individuals who make up the State to believe that they have rights upon this earth, instil into them a full consciousness of their rights as British citizens within the confines of this country, and not run along this line of teaching the people that they are, as it were, the charitable beggars of the State, dependent upon subventions from the State. That is the way to sap the State, to kill all individuality, to turn this country either into a blind automaton, something akin to what we see in Germany, or, perhaps, something worse.
  Therefore, I say that under a Christian and just state of society it would not be something called semi-charity, but it would be a duty of the State, to see to it that those who by old age or youth or by some unhappy accident were incapacitated were well looked after, If parents had been destroyed in defending the country their children would be the first charge on the State—not a charge as we speak of it, but a duty of the State. But while doing everything to preserve the rights of children who have lost their parents or guardians because they have fallen while defending the country, and while demanding that the elderly who are passing out of an old system which was dominated by social injustice shall be maintained happy in the winter of their days, do not let us go on thinking that it is our duty to substitute social injustice, which is creating
  1882
  poverty among normal people, by resort to further State doles. We want to substitute a state of society where a just distribution of wealth will prevail, and where fathers will be found proud to proclaim that they are the fathers of children because they do not live in a country where poverty turns men into sycophants and beggars. Let us aim at the true balance of social justice and away from this tendency towards State beggary and State subvention.
  Captain Sir Ian Fraser: With much of what the last speaker said about the independent spirit many of us will agree, but I cannot help thinking that he is very muddled. He evidently has an independent knowledge of God's law. He tells us that, in nature, it would be provided that all should share equally. He tells us that the Egyptians and the natives who live under God's sun get everything equally. That is a pretty picture, but nature, in fact, is cruel. In nature, the strong eat the weak if they can, and destroy them. Every animal lives on some other animal. If God's law means anything it surely means that we men, who are higher than the animals, must use our consciences to see that the natural law does not take its course. Surely that is the reason why we meet in Parliament. We come here to defeat the natural law of laissez faire which is "let things go and the devil take the hindmost."
  A new sentiment has come into our country which has made it possible for the strong to look after the weak and for those who have to share with those who have not, but that cannot be done by just talking. It has to be done by action. The action which is inspired by this House must be carried out by civil servants. Therefore, to speak against bureaucrats, because they perform those duties for us, is a sign of muddled thinking. The hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) says that he and his friends can agree to the proposal only if the allowances are for all. I cannot understand that attitude. To give 5s. a week to somebody who does not need it seems a foolish waste of public money. I can think of no other plain term in which to express it. The hon. Member suggests that by doing so, you would get away from class feeling, but I do not think you would. As long as there are people whose

  1883
  incomes make it possible for them not to need the 5s., such people will refuse to take it. If that be snobbishness, I do not understand the meaning of words. I should have thought it was a virtue in people that they should try to be independent and look after themselves, and I cannot feel that it would be right to burden the country with the unnecessary payment of allowances to people who do not need them. That is, frankly, what is proposed.
  There is just one other qualification. As we grow older and as we come into the third year of the second war in our time, values change, it seems to me, and private fortunes seem to count for less. As we share the horrors of war and as death brings us nearer together, many of us feel that we have to revise to some extent the priorities which we had in our minds as to what could be done for those in difficulties. Let us never forget that the wealth of the State is not illimitable. It is true that all the wealth is made by the workers and that none of the accumulated wealth of the past can be repeated, replaced and maintained without the Work of the workers; but the workers are not in any one class. They include everyone in the community. There ought to be no one not doing his share. When the wealth has been made it can be divided by various means, but let us be sure that we make it. While we may have priorities in our own minds for the care of this or that group of our citizens, let us be sure that our taxation is not such that industry cannot survive to make the wealth out of which all these good things are to come. Subject to that condition, I imagine almost everyone would agree that the children must be a first call. I, for one, would not willingly support a Government which did not seek to remove the poverty which, it has been shown, affects 25 per cent. of our children. That must be done, but before we engage in a scheme that will cost £90,000,000, £70,000,000 or £50,000,000, or whatever it may be according to the various estimates, I submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should look to see where the need is.
  May I bring to his notice one class where there is real need and I believe real injustice? The wife of the serving soldier is provided with an allowance of so much per child, irrespective of the time when
  1884
  the soldier entered the Army, and of Whether he was married or not. He may enter the Army as a single man and subsequently get married and have children, and his wife and children have the allowance. That rule does not apply to the soldier who is disabled in the country's service. If he was married at the time when he was disabled there is an allowance for his wife and children, but if he marries subsequently there is no allowance for him. The State seems to take the view that it can be responsible only for the liabilities of the man at the time when he was wounded. That is logical and understandable, but it is not humane. It does not have regard to the facts. The facts are that, up to the last war, a few thousands—do not let us exaggerate the problem—of men were disabled in the severest way. They were unmarried, and naturally so, because they were in their twenties, but many of them wanted to get married when the war was over, and they saw their way clear to do so. That was virtuous forbearance. They took a chance, and they have had a very hard life bringing up a wife and family upon a single man's pension.
  The hon. Member for Llanelly pointed out that the Rowntree minimum of 43s. 6d. a week for a man, wife and three children was a fair minimum. Whether we call that figure a very fair minimum, a fair minimum or just a minimum, the fact is that a disabled soldier gets 37s. 6d. a week on which to bring up himself and his wife and any children he may have. He gets no further allowance. The time has come to alter this position and to realise that to make these men remain single or to make them bring up a wife and family on a single man's pension, was unfair to the disabled soldier, hard on the wife, bad for the children and contrary to the interests of the State. I support family allowances in the sense that they represent a good and sensible way of bringing the State's help to the 25 per cent. or whatever the percentage may be of children who are underfed or undernourished. I do not support them in the way in which they have been proposed as being payable to all, whether needing them or not. I hope that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot afford this great and difficult scheme, he will at least look to the class of person to which I have called his attention and see whether he can start by helping them.
  Major Sir Edward Cadogan: I do not propose to follow hon. Members who have been discussing the merits of family allowances per se. I am all for an investigation being instituted into the possibilities of their application and, no more than the hon. Lady the Member for the Combined English Universities (Miss Rathbone), do I want any delay in the process. I wish to invite the attention of the House and especially of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the financial aspect of the question. I hope that during the inquiry the Government will give due care to the financial implications of this scheme, which certainly deserve far more attention and reflection than its promoters appear to have devoted to it. Like other hon. Members, I have received a circular letter marshalling all the facts in favour of family allowances and carefully omitting any but the slightest reference to the financial side of the question, and almost demanding that hon. Members should stop arguing about it and vote here and now. That is not a form of propaganda which appeals very much to me, and I should have thought that it was hardly in accord with the dignity of this House to pay much attention to it. It certainly will not turn me aside from giving the most careful consideration to both sides of the question.
  A few days ago when we were discussing a Vote of Credit—one of a series which will involve this State in an unbelievable expenditure—the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) took occasion to make the observation that this proved that everything was financially possible. That is only a paraphrase of a famous utterance by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) to the effect that this country can afford anything it wants. What the right hon. Gentleman had in mind, of course, was that we might just as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb. The fallacy of the right hon. Gentleman's proposition can be exposed with the greatest ease by asking: Why only 5s.? You may be quite certain that when family allowances are instituted this question will be asked: Why only 5s. and not 500s.?
  Whatever the modem professors of political economy may insist to the contrary, I am quite sure that there is an economic limit to any form of State
  1886
  expenditure by a country like our own, which is not self-contained and which depends for its prosperity on a number of factors, perhaps outside our borders and beyond our control. The Labour party discovered that truth in 1931, when the electorate, in no measured terms, turned down the creed that this nation can afford anything it wants. I fought in that Election; my Labour opponent promised the electors anything they wanted and I promised them nothing but a lean period so long as the nation's finances remained in the same disordered condition as that in which the Labour party had left them. That evidently was what the electors wanted, because they returned me by a majority of 27,000. In spite of the teaching of the new school of political economy, I still prefer the standard of financial conduct, applicable just as much to the nation as to the individual, which was set us by a famous character in fiction. I still believe that the more we discard Mr. Micawber's formula, the more perilous will our economic situation become.
  In the matter of whether we can afford family allowances or not, there are two main considerations which I take it for granted the Government will not lose sight of in the course of their investigations. The first is that the expenditure of £150,000,000—or whatever the figure is, I do not know—must, in part or in whole, be borne by direct taxation. If this is so, surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer should bear in mind the change already apparent in the incidence of Income Tax. More and more, as the wage-earner becomes better remunerated for his work, and as the larger estates become broken up and impoverished, will the incidence of Income Tax fall upon the wage-earning classes. Before agreeing to the hon. and gallant Member's Motion, we should ask: Is it quite certain that in these family allowances we shall not be giving with one hand what we are taking away with the other? There is an infinitely more important consideration, and one which is less open to cavil or dispute. We know that all these demands for increases, in old age pensions, widows' pensions or the basic rate in any other form of social assistance, are due in the main to one basic cause. For a long period of years there has been a steady rise, no doubt fluctuating at times but consistent on the whole,

  1887
  in the cost of living. If you encourage a race between social services and the cost of living, we all know where that will lead. In spite of what hon. Members opposite may say, you cannot, by legislation alone, maintain a high standard of living. The high standard of living we all want to see will depend mainly upon the economic factors of industry.
  There are one or two minor considerations to which I would draw the attention of the House and which, I admit, are more questions of opinion and less capable of proof, That has not prevented hon. Members from bringing them forward today in favour of family allowances. It has been stated that family allowances will effect a rise in the birth-rate, a very desirable object. If this new form of State assistance entails an increase in direct taxation, which I take it must be the case, then I am quite certain that it will have exactly the opposite effect. Hon. Members may recollect that some years ago there was initiated by the B.B.C. a series of seances enlisting the services of the man-in-the-street. The question on one occasion was, what were the main factors in restricting the birth rate? Whatever other factors were adduced by those anonymous persons, who were just ordinary members of the public, they all agreed that the burden of rates and taxes acted as the most effective factor in birth control.
  Here again I touch upon a subject of high controversy. Our first preoccupation after we have won the war and if we want to survive must be the recovery of our export trade. No amount of State assistance or social services will be of the smallest avail unless that end is achieved. Demobilisation and resettlement are subjects which I, like other hon. Members, have lately been studying, and for reasons which I certainly have not the time to explain now these are going to be extraordinarily expensive items in the Bill which the nation will have to foot. Every reverse that we suffer, such as those we have regrettably suffered in the course of the last few days, will in all likelihood prolong the war, which is costing us £10,000 a minute. We have no idea what our financial commitments will be in the course of the next few years, but this I think we can forecast: that the situation of the working man will be ever so much better than it was
  1888
  in 1936, when Mr. Seebohm Rowntree instituted his inquiry in the town of York, already referred to by several hon. Members. I think we may safely say that most of our working-people will be earning extremely good wages for the rest of the war. Is this, therefore, the precise psychological moment to commit ourselves to expenditure of the nature of that which we are discussing to-day? Ought we not to be thinking about how to get out of this financial morass and not about immersing ourselves deeper in it?
  Finally, I would like to say that amongst the factors which restrain me from giving a careless and thoughtless consent to this Motion, which might, by itself, be unexceptionable, is that I am becoming apprehensive that we are not approaching reconstruction in the right spirit. We are teaching everyone to say, "What can I get out of the State?" rather than "What can I contribute to the State?" If we are going to teach young people that the measure of a nation's greatness is the amount of assistance given to the individual we shall be preaching something which is economically false and morally unsound. And if we persist in this attitude of mind, I believe that this new Jerusalem of which we hear so much will recede more and more into the remote distance, and we shall be left behind without having achieved the ambitions about which we all hear so much to-day.
  Mr. Graham White: The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken expressed the fear that we were approaching reconstruction in the wrong spirit, namely, from what we could get out of it rather than what we could put in. If he is advancing that argument—I am not quite sure whether he is—against the system of family allowances, I would remind him that to be consistent he would have to express his opposition to the system of family allowances on a very much larger scale which is being given through Income Tax rebates. No one can logically or humanely base any opposition to a system of family allowances which is merely an extension of a system enjoyed by the richer people without also opposing that system of rebates. I do not know whether there are any Members of this House who will be prepared to record a vote

  1889
  against the system of family allowances. Indeed, when I came into the Chamber to-day I wondered whether anyone could oppose family allowances except those who, for reasons which are well understood, think that the institution of a system of this kind might interfere with their powers of bargaining, or that it might be used for the improper purpose of making an attack on some other machinery for improving the standard of life. I had thought in my innocence that only people who could possibly be against a system of family allowances, would be those who do not know the facts or who know the facts and misunderstand them.
  As I have already said, if there are others who are opposed to a system of family allowances, they must equally oppose that system of allowances introduced by William Pitt in the Income Tax of 1799, which unfortunately had to be abandoned as the moral level at that time was not so high as now. It was renewed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) when in 1906 he proposed to recognise family allowances by means of an Income Tax rebate. As Income Tax was then at 9d. in the £, that rebate amounted to 7s. 6d. per year per child. That has grown until we now give a rebate at the full rate on Income Tax on £50 for every child, no matter what the income may be. I repeat that those who are opposed to family allowances for those whose needs are unquestioned must also be opposed to the other system. That system of family allowances by rebate has been going on for 36 years. So far as I know, it has not had any more effect in undermining or sapping the independence of the British race than the introduction of the old age pension, which was denounced for just such reasons when it was proposed by the late Lord Asquith and the right hon. Member for Caernarvon Boroughs. I was pained to hear that argument falling from the lips of my hon. and gallant Friend. It is an ancient but not a very venerable argument.
  When I first heard of this Debate I was struck with precisely the thought which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) as to the appropriateness of holding the Debate at this time, in the existing circumstances.
  1890
  It did occur to me that a detached observer from Mars watching the course of business of this House over the last few days, observing Debates on education, old age pensions, family allowances in the Upper Chamber one day last week, and the same subject here to-day, might well ask himself whether the powers of Parliament to detach itself from the background of the harsh and terrible events which are taking place in Libya, in Russia and elsewhere were not such as to raise doubts as to its capacity for realising its responsibility for affairs in the present state of the world. On reflection, I came to the conclusion that so far from stultifying ourselves, as the hon. Member for Mossley suggested, by discussing these events, the fact that we were devoting our attention to this was evidence either of conscious or unconscious realisation of the dedication of ourselves to that progress for the well-being of the common man to which we are pledged in Section 5 of the Atlantic Charter, and our realisation of the fact that in this war we are in a great and glorious crusade to that end. We will not let it end with the stopping of the fight. It has to go on with no hiatus to tackle the tasks of peace.
  The hon. Member for Mossley did not refer in his indictment of Parliament to the misery of the occupied territories in Europe, those great, silent cemeteries of famine, want and despair and what their thoughts would be on hearing that we are setting out to improve conditions here. That thought assailed me, but I think there can be no valid reason, if one of the 26 of the Allied Nations is mercifully free to make plans as to how it can improve the lot of its people, not to do so; that is the great and common task of all free countries. I support this Motion, and my remarks may fortunately be curtailed, by the fact that all the arguments have already been placed before the House by the Mover and Seconder of the Motion. I am more optimistic of the state of this controversy in the public mind than some of those who have preceded me. It has gone through the normal processes of political discussion in this country. We have had the pioneers, we have had influence brought upon Parliament, and public opinion, and now every party in the State except the Conservative party has expressed itself in favour of this Motion.

  1891
  As for the Conservative party, we have had no more able, ardent, and persistent advocate for family allowances than my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India, whose interest in this matter, I am glad to see, is maintained, because he Has been in his place to-day. Also, we have had the support and enthusiasm of the hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone). We have reached the penultimate stage, or, as I am sitting in the elected Chamber, I ought, perhaps, to say the semi-final state of this discussion, in which the Government, having held an inquiry, now rely on Parliament and public to reveal to them what their convictions really are and then to advance legislation. If that is not so, I hope that the House will be informed. There has been some discussion about the terms of the Motion. It asks the Government to consider the question. If the Government have really made up their minds and will not do anything else but consider the matter, we should be glad to know. Then we should put a Motion on the Paper in very different terms from that which we are now considering. But I do not think that that is the case. I think we are proceeding according to English methods, according to the glorious standards of the Constitution, about which we have heard so much just now, and that legislation will be proposed.
  I want to touch for a moment upon two more technical matters. I think it is of the utmost consequence for the background of investigation which is being carried out by the Beveridge Committee that they should know what is in the mind of the Government with regard to family allowances. The House will hardly expect me to fail to draw attention to the extraordinary mess of the social services of this country, owing to the fact that we have never had any central planning body and because there is no authority in the State charged with the continuous supervision of the social services. One of the most important things about this discussion on family allowances is that it will compel the Government to look at the problem squarely, and that it will be the means, one hopes, of getting rid of the preposterous and indefensible system of allowances to children which prevails in this country at present. May I give an
  1892
  example or two of that chaotic business? The first child of a member of the Armed Forces has an allowance of 8s. 6d. a week. An unaccompanied evacuee, aged between five and 10, gets 10s. 6d. a week, and an unaccompanied evacuee of 14 to 16 gets 13s. Under unemployment benefit, 4s. is allowed for the first child, and 3s. for any further child. The workmen's compensation scale, when a parent is 100 per cent. disabled, is 4s. In the case of air-raid victims, when parents are temporarily in hospital, 4s. is allowed. In the case of war victims, with parents who are both 100 per cent. disabled, the amount is 7s. 1d. In the case of contributory pensions, when the mother is living, the payment is 5s., and 3s. for the third child. One of these allowances may be the right one. I am not prepared, of my own knowledge, to declare that no single one is right. But if one happens to be right, all the others are wrong. I ask the Government, when considering this scheme of family allowances, to give their minds to a situation which reflects very little credit on the Government of this country.
  Singularly little attention has been paid in the Debate to the actual body of this White Paper. It contains quite a number of remarkable statements. It is no solution of the financial aspect of this problem to say that the cost of family allowances is only seven, or eight, or 10 days' cost of the war. But, although the amounts are formidable, none is prohibitive, provided that we are satisfied that this is the right way to remove the reproach from this country that so many children are in poverty. I want to refer to that part of the White Paper which calls attention to the position which it alleges would arise if a system of family allowances was related to Income Tax relief. It points out that people would find themselves either rewarded or the reverse, in regard to the family allowances which they would receive, according to any contraction or increase of Income Tax which the Chancellor might propose, and says that, for that reason, nothing of that kind could be brought in. Why should it be so? This matter seems to me to be on all fours with the relationship between Income Tax and the allowances given in respect of life insurance. They have been most effectively detached. The same thing could be done here. Allowances in respect of life insurance

  1893
  are at a special rate for policies taken out before 1916. If that matter is considered an impediment, I suggest that it should be looked at again. I would also draw attention to a statement, on page 11, that a rebate
  "given in respect of children represents a recognition of the fact that the possession of children reduces the capacity to pay."
  But what is the actual performance which we carry out to-day? Let me give one example, bearing in mind that the Income Tax rebate suggests a reduced capacity to pay. Take a man with an income of £6 10s. a week, and another with an income of £8 10s. a week, both having four children. It is a fact that the man who has £8 10s. a week has a greater capacity to pay than the man with £6 10s. a week. But we recognise the principle that we have set out here, and upon which apparently this wonderful scheme is based, by giving the taxpayer whose capacity to pay is greater than the other man's £65 a year, while the man with £2 a week less, gets £49 a year. This system of allowances requires very close investigation. It is full of anomalies which are indefensible and should be rectified at the earliest possible moment. I do not wish to say anything more, except that I was struck by reading some words which I noticed in the Press some time ago which seemed to sum up, on humane grounds, the case for family allowances. It was a speech by Mrs. Aline McKinnon addressing the Women's Liberal Federation, in which he said:
  "Why should a child be condemned from the outset to have less good food, less birthday toys, because, when he arrived, he found that two or three little brothers and sisters had arrived before him and that all of them must have a little less if the new baby is to have anything at all?"
  That is the state of affairs to-day. It is little credit to us. It is intolerable. There may be people in this House who oppose this Motion. If that is so, it is only because they must have some better scheme to suggest, and I await with interest for them to unfold it to the House.
  Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: On the subject of the responsibilities and problems which attend the rearing of a large family I speak with a considerable volume of first-hand experience laboriously acquired over a period of nearly 22 years. I hope that the fact that several hon. Members and I had put down an Amendment to this Motion in its
  1894
  original form will not be interpreted, or misinterpreted, as offering uncompromising opposition to all forms of allowances or to all forms of assistance to those upon whom the burden of maintaining a family actually falls. Such an attitude—of opposition—would be flying in face of fact and experience. I am aware of many practical arguments for allowances where needed. Not only is such assistance already given in matters of national concern such as Service pay, unemployment assistance and supplementary pensions but there are also many private schemes among private businesses in existence. I might mention that the banks, who according to some of our economic moralists can never do anything right, have for a number of years had in force a comprehensive system of allowances, for marriage, children, and pensions to which I intend to refer later in dealing with details. As a bank director I share responsibility for one of these schemes and I most heartily approve of it.
  But the existence of provisions for assistance in particular cases is not necessarily an argument for a scheme of general application. I shall try to show the House that the provision of family allowances is not an interest of the State except in respect of State servants, and it is not a responsibility of the State except in respect of relief of destitution. One reason for the fact that the demand for family allowances has been gaining strength is that we are at war, and practically all of us are, in some form or another, servants of the State and therefore tend to have our view of these matters somewhat biased by that condition.
  May I first be allowed the luxury of a little "debunking?" I believe that among the very large number of hon. Members who put their names to the Motion, at any rate in its original form, there must be quite a few who did not go through any very profound processes of thought before they did so. Anyone might argue that his political reputation was not likely to be harmed by the association of his name with so generous an impulse; and, as to finding the money, that is the job of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is far easier to put down one's name to a Motion in favour of family allowances than to work out a reasoned Amendment to such a Motion. It is certainly more attractive to

  1895
  appear before the public, and the electorate, as one guided by kindly impulses towards children and willing to act generously towards them—albeit with the taxpayers' money—than it is to appear as one holding such impulses in check while he considers whether he may not be contemplating something which would do more harm than good. It is far simpler to base one's whole attitude towards this as indeed towards all forms of social service on the words in the second verse of the 6th Chapter of St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians—
  "Bear ye one another's burdens"
  than it is to struggle on to the fifth verse of the same chapter and there find the striking contradiction—
  "For every man shall bear his own burden."
  Mr. George Griffiths: That is not a contradiction but a confirmation.
  Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: It was the late Sir Arnold Wilson who called my attention to that apparent contradiction and the reason he gave has some bearing on what might be our attitude to this matter. The two verses reflect the use of the same English word "burden" to represent two entirely different words in the original Greek. The true translation of the second verse should have been, "Bear ye one another's calamities" and of the fifth verse "Every man shall carry his own pack." So the instruction appears to be that a man ought to carry his pack, and the rest of us ought to help him if it turns out to be so overwhelming a burden as to be a calamity. It might be said that I am no more qualified to hold forth on matters connected with the interpretation of Holy Writ than are some of the Lords Spiritual to descant upon the processes and motives of trade and commerce. But is it seriously proposed that to have a large family of children is necessarily an overwhelming calamity?
  Mr. Rowntree's statistics do not prove the whole case. They prove that destitution is accentuated by large families; they do not prove that it is always or necessarily caused by large families. I offer the far more affirmative proposition that in most cases a man's children are an inspiration to him; and that to a man of spirit, if his children are many rather than few, the mighty effort which they compel him to put forth may well prove to be the mainspring of his material well-
  1896
  being. In that connection the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) in his very able speech did not make a case for a general system of family allowances. He made out an excellent case for a system of family allowances for those families falling below the average or desirable income level. He went on to say that for other reasons he wanted a general scheme but the facts he produced did not make out a case for a general scheme.
  There are three arguments put forward by some of the supporters of these proposals with which I should like to deal. It is said that the allowance of 5s. will tend to counter the fall in the birthrate. Is there not obviously something wrong about this? To what proportion of our population or to what section will it appeal? When one considers the pains of travail and the immense responsibility and the ceaseless effort and self-denial and self discipline involved in rearing a family, is such a proposal as this likely to tip the scales in favour of marriage in the case of those who are already reluctant to assume these pains and responsibilities? Is this really a matter we can consider on a strictly money basis? And, if so, is 5s. per week any measure of it at all? I feel that this line of argument gives a distorted picture of and puts a low rating on the attitude of serious-minded men and women towards the married state.
  Secondly, there is the argument that to-day we are spending £12,000,000 a day and surely we can afford the £50,000,000, £60,000,000 or £132,000,000 a year called for in these proposals. I strongly support the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Bolton (Sir E. Cadogan) in that regard. I would like to mention also the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), when, with his characteristic method of hitting nails hard on the head irrespective of whose fingers may be around, he pointed out in last Wednesday's Debate on old age pensions that we were deceiving ourselves and deceiving the whole country if we tried to delude ourselves that we can go on year after year spending more than we are getting in without there ever being a day of reckoning; and that all we have to do is to vote the money and finance will look after itself.

  1897
  It is true that a man who is spending thousands can spend £1 more or less without making much relative difference to his prospects of bankruptcy or solvency; but although the proximate cause of the bankruptcy of a man who fails for a million is his inability to raise half-a-crown on a given day, it is the relation of his aggregate commitments to his aggregate resources which determines his solvency or the reverse. The aggregate position of the nation, while it finds expression in terms of money, is really not so much a question of finance as of available men and materials. We cannot by financial means alone hope to live better than the finite supply of men and materials permits. If we try by purely financial means to do so, it is finance and not men and materials which will give way. We cannot by financial means make five loaves and two small fishes feed the multitude. All that will happen is that currency will give way and prices will rise, as they have been doing progressively over the last 50 years. No monetary system that can ever be devised can prevent this happening. The gold standard being made of unyielding material, just broke in two under the massed demand of voters in two continents to get something for nothing. Managed currency will yield at first to such a demand: but finally will just lie on its back and wave all four legs in the air.
  In passing, may I comment on one of the financial arguments put forward by supporters of the proposal in a document entitled "The Case for a National Scheme of Family Allowances." With special reference to the argument that we cannot afford it, there appear the following words:
  "The names of some of the signatories to the Notice of Motion should be reassuring to those using this argument. For example, the names include the Chairman of the Select Committee on National Expenditure."
  I sympathise with my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne), whom I do not see here, in this use, or perhaps I ought to say misuse, of his name. I suppose that the argument is that my hon. Friend, having been charged by this House with economy, knows all about it, and that if he says we can afford it, it must be all right in spite of anything the Chancellor might say. May I point out the slight difference between my hon. Friend and the Chancellor when we are discussing
  1898
  what we can and cannot afford?. It is that the Chancellor has to find the money. I have no doubt that if my hon. Friend were here he would tell us in his thoughtful tones that in this important field of productive activity we are not producing up to 75 per cent. of capacity. I do not know what capacity may be, but I would like to ask what is "bogey"? Or perhaps I might more properly ask what is "par" for this course.
  Thirdly there is the loosely sentimental and somewhat slanderous argument that our children must be cared for by the State because they are children of the State. This is often accompanied by a loose phrase suggesting that a man with a large family is doing his duty by the nation. Was there ever so sloppy a mixture of Communistic philosophy with the Kanonenfurter principle of the Fascist?
  Miss Rathbone: Does the hon. Gentleman deny the fact that children have a value to the nation as future citizens and workers and not only to their parents?
  Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: If the hon. Lady has patience she will hear my views on that subject. I am one of those who believe that accountability for the exercise of power is towards the source of that power and that we should render unto Ceasar only those things that are Caesars. The source of the power of procreation—of self-reproduction—is Divine, and it is towards God and not towards his neighbour that the primary responsibility of a parent lies. The unit of living is not the individual and not the nation, but the family. I think those whose minds dwell too much on the science and machinery of government, and on the many and wonderful things that can be accomplished by co-operative action, are apt to be a little carried away by their subject and be so intrigued by the mechanics of it that they come to regard government as an end in itself. There were families before nations; and please God there will be families long after nations have been swept away. The family is before the State in point of time: and while it is obviously weaker in its temporal power, it is superior to the State in its spiritual authority.
  In this connection may I mention the surprising fact that in all the discussions on this subject, even in the Debate that

  1899
  took place in another place, there has hardly been any mention at all of the primary responsibility of a man to maintain and support the children he brings into the world? In the Debate on Education last Tuesday not a single mention was made of man's responsibility to provide for, and his right to decide about, his children's education. Has this concept passed entirely from our philosophy? If so, there are good and weighty reasons for the anxiety expressed for the future of the race in a recent letter in "The Times" by the President of the Association of Headmasters and the Chairman of the Headmasters' Conference.
  Four or five years ago I gave a dinner in this House for an old Japanese lawyer who, 60 years ago, was called to the Bar of the Middle Temple and who has spent a lifetime in practice at the Japanese Bar in attempting to propagate throughout the East the underlying principles of English common law. Another of my guests was a member of the Government who turned to him and asked, "How do you deal in Japan with problems of social services such as, for instance, old age pensions?" "Ah," said my old friend, "that is not a State problem with us. It is the responsibility of the family." I wonder whether this attitude of mind has anything to do with the Japanese being such doughty fighters?
  May I touch very briefly on existing schemes, because there are some features common to them which I ask the House to note. For a number of years the leading banks have had a comprehensive scheme of allowances for their staff covering the entire period of their service and operating over the whole range of staff up to those receiving about £1,000 a year. There are marriage allowances of about £30 a year and children's allowances of about £15 to £30 a year for the first child, £15 to £20 a year for the second child, and £10 to £15 a year for subsequent children. There are also pensions varying with salary and length of service. It will be noted that these systems recognise the undoubted fact that the first great change in a man's life comes when he is married, and the second great change on the arrival of the first child. Subsequent children do not make so great a proportional difference. We all know that reductions can usually be
  1900
  obtained when taking a quantity. But comparing banks with other privately-run concerns, it is worth noting that a bank's business is pre-eminently one not subject to great fluctuations in the numbers of staff which it employs. The existence of marriage and children's allowances is not, therefore, a factor determining selective employment and discharge to the extent that obtains with a concern employing a large proportion of unskilled labour and subject to great fluctuations in the volume of employment.
  The point, however, which I would particularly ask the House to note is that continuity of employment, always an interest of the employee, is in the case of the bank a special interest also of the employer. It as to the bank's interest that its staff should remain with it for a long time, that the men and women engaged in the bank's service should enter that service with the idea of spending their lives and making a career with the bank, so that they should come to know the bank's business and the idiosyncrasies of its customers well; for contrary to the impression that may prevail in some quarters, both the customers of the bank and the bank appreciate the value of long and continued association. Indeed, in that connection, in the case of a bank which recently celebrated its 250th anniversary, there is a record of an old lady who died at the age of 112, having had an account with the bank for 91 years, and the only literature found by her executor in her bedroom was the bank's passbook on her bedside table. So, too, the State's interest comes in in the case of marriage and children's allowances to those engaged in the service of the State, while the State's responsibility comes in in connection with allowances to children of men on unemployment assistance and also in connection with supplementary pensions; for it is the State's obligation to relieve destitution.
  Finally, to sum up, I suggest that a general scheme of family allowances is not the State's business. If there is to be a family allowance scheme, it should only be given either where there is an interest to serve or where there is proved to be need.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Would the hon. Gentleman carry this to its logical conclusion, and in the case of those who are given

  1901
  children's allowances under the Income Tax, apply a means test?
  Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I had left that matter out of my speech because I thought it was dealt with adequately in another place, but I will refer briefly to it. If a scheme is to be applied only where there is proved to be need, it involves a means test. I have never been able to understand why—and this was referred to the other day by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams)—it should be considered right that there should be a means test, as there is, to determine how much money a taxpayer shall pay to the Government and wrong that there should be a means test to determine how much of that money his neighbour shall receive. As to the specific point which the hon. Member for Llanelly raised, the principle of allowing deductions from Income Tax differs in this respect from children's allowances, that (although it is in the same general category, I agree) the taxpayer contributes to the support of the non-taxpayer, and the allowance in the case of the taxpayer is in the nature of an arrangement between taxpayers. The way in which to bring equity between taxpayers and non-taxpayers in respect of this particular allowance is to bring the non-taxpayer into tax and then let him off some of the tax.
  Many people, and many hon. Members opposite, hold the view, with regard to a means test, that a man should receive certain things from the State as a right. I suppose that this view is based upon some doctrine that a man is born with certain absolute rights. I contest that doctrine, and I offer a sterner and, I believe, a truer and more Christian doctrine, that no man has any rights except those which accrue from the acceptance and the due fulfilment of responsibility. I further contend that, in fulfilling the law to be fruitful and multiply, a man's responsibility is not towards his neighbour but towards God. I venture to give a very brief comparison, without questioning the whole principle of social services. Of course, this is a problem which it is impossible to consider except in conjunction with the social services generally, and therefore, we are awaiting with interest the report of Sir William Beveridge on the relation of family allowances to social services. When
  1902
  we receive that report, I hope we shall not find that he has attempted to apply to the management of families the same theory of statistical averages which he applied to the heating of homes. I will put the comparison in the form of a question, and ask the House to apply the deductions from such comparison to the present proposals. It is this. If in the 20 years preceding the war we had budgeted for £100,000,000 a year less on social services and £100,000,000 a year more on defence, would the recipients of those social services have been substantially worse off, and would they be any worse off to-day?
  Mr. Logan: I have been rather amused by some of the propositions that have been placed before the House. I listened with amusement to the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren), and I was delighted by some of the absurdities of the hon. and gallant Member for Bolton (Sir E. Cadogan). I was pleased to find that the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) put forward a practical point of view, that is, from the standpoint of a banker. From the economic point of view, I can thoroughly understand the banks' position, and I can understand the position of a mother who has four or five children and who feels, with the loss of the breadwinner, that the State has something to do with those children. From the Christian point of view, I believe in rendering to Caesar the things, that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's, without any trouble about the true definition. As Marcus Aurelius said, let us be true in definition, and when we know what it is we have defined and have common agreement on that, we shall be able to argue the position. In the neighbourhood in which I live, they do not come from Cambridge or Oxford, and they are not bank directors, but many of them go down to the sea in ships. They have been three, four or five times torpedoed and still go back again, and others in dock life and factory life have five or six in family, in many cases all to-day in His Majesty's service. I believe, as the ancients did, in a healthy body and a sound mind as being necessary to the nation. I do not know whether the question of £ s. d. comes in. I remember working with another employee who, when we were counting sovereigns

  1903
  into packets of 20, knocked one packet down and said, "Oh, my God!" He did not seem to understand what it meant. But it was his god. He lived absolutely for the question of gold. Are we living that way to-day, and are we to appeal to the nation from the point of view of the gold? When I hear about the daily cost of the war I remember a venerable Member on these benches—I could call him by some other name—who told us, when he crossed the Floor of the House, that if we spent £90,000,000 on old age pensioners the nation and all in it would be ruined, yet to-day we pass a Vote for £1,000,000,000, and are told that there will probably be another in three months, but there is no question of insolvency. Many bank managers will be able to advance money to their clients and have a properly balanced account at the end of the year.
  If I understand things rightly, the most valuable thing we can have is a well-balanced nation, children, men and women, and without that your nation is no good. The hon. Member who spoke last told us about the pregnant question that he put to a Japanese in regard to the responsibility of the State in providing for children. The Japanese replied, "That is no responsibility of ours." It is no good giving us, Japanese morality as a criterion. We are not looking for that kind of morality. What we are looking for is a new life and a new era, a new period when men and women will begin to recognise that they are before the State but responsible to the State to do their duty one to the other. I remember a lady giving an address on social economics who explained how cheap it was to boil a cod's head. A member of the audience said, "My good woman, can you tell me who gets the rest of the fish?" Cod's bead may be all right, but the rest of the fish goes somewhere else, I suppose into the black market. I do not want any of that.
  I want to know what it is we are arguing about. I understand it is that we shall make provision for those who are not able to make provision for their children. There seems to be a difference whether they should be of independent parents or non-independent parents. I am not particular whether it is independent or non-independent as long as the children are there. That is a question
  1904
  for the House to decide. Amendments can be brought in to deal with the difficulty. I was once looking at some Guards going over a bridge. I thought how well they had fought for England, and I thought how proud many mothers must be of their boys wearing the King's colours, men in the truest sense. One of the guardsmen, who had four lovely children, died. The widow had nothing but a pension of 24s. a week and had to pay 10s. 6d. for a house. Now the children are growing up and are starting to think that they ought to take service under the Crown and give their services to the nation, and they feel that, if the war should last long enough, they will have to do the same as their daddy did. If it were not for the supplementation which the grandmother receives, the Poor Law system would have to work. There would be a visitation of the home, a barbarism such as people have never know before. The breadwinner has been taken away, and it is our duty to look after such cases.
  I had the idea that the people of Russia were mad, but I believe the people of this country were mad long before the Russians. Is there anyone in this House who does not think we shall have to change our opinions and that in future money will not have to give service to the community? There is no man in any walk of life, whether it is high or low, who is secure. No one knows where he will be to-morrow. The ups and downs have been so great that they have made us common bedfellows. In this House of Commons we shall have to study and bring into operation laws which many of us would never have thought in our wildest dreams we should have met together to discuss. The question of rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's, will be a question which will puzzle the Coalition Government, because "whom God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." I wonder, when the separation and divorce take place, whether it will be binding, and whether the two parties will go into their own camps once more or whether a new kind of vision will come from the hybrids that to-day gather on the Front Bench. Today people are crying out to Members of Parliament not to judge everything in pounds, shillings and pence. Who can say from the fruits of the garden what value there is in the production of the

  1905
  earth, and what beauty? I know of nothing sweeter than little kiddies playing, and hearing the prattle of their tongues, knowing that in this England of ours we have rosy-cheeked children growing up in the fear of God and hoping to serve their country. We have been told by a banker of someone dying and leaving a bankbook by the bedside. I suppose in future asbestos bankbooks will be handed out for the bedside. Let us while we live dispose of the things, we possess, and let those with plenty do their duty towards the children and those who require the essential things of life. You cannot do anything better with money than to feed, clothe and educate the children of this country, and give them an equal opportunity with the children of the rich.
  Major Petherick: The hon. Member for the Scotland division of Liverpool (Mr. Logan) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his higher flights of political eloquence which have delighted the House. I have heard him on many occasions addressing the House and bringing forward some very hard cases. I sometimes feel that he is so impressed by the hard case he is quoting that he allows it to obscure his judgment. I understand there are a number of schemes put forward on this question, and the Motion of those who support the case for family allowances seeks to pay 5s. a week for every child. It is to this Motion that I shall address my remarks. I should like to put forward my case in two parts, firstly, in regard to the time of the introduction of this Motion and on its feasability, and, secondly, in regard to the merits or demerits, of the scheme which hon. Members are putting forward. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), who, in an earlier Debate, deplored bringing forward this Motion at the present time. I think it is wrong to do so, but, as there is a Debate on the question, it is only right that those who feel strongly on one side or another should ventilate their views.
  This scheme, if accepted, will make a very severe and radical change in our social, policy, and in my view we should not embark on such a change in the heat of the greatest war history has known, and when Britain is fighting for her life together with the Empire and her Allies.
  1906
  Surely this is a matter to be discussed in peace-time, when we have plenty of time to devote to considering its merits or disadvantages. It has been suggested it is a tribute to democracy that we should be able to discuss such a Motion; but in my view we are stultifying democracy, because the whole weight of the Government and this House of Commons should be devoted, day in and day out, not to considering social reforms for now or after the war, but to methods of winning the war as soon as possible. A certain amount has been said by those who oppose the scheme on the question of costs. I notice that hon. Members who are advocating this scheme have been very careful in their brief remarks on the costs involved. In the pamphlet, which, I suppose has been sent to all hon. Members, the suggestion is made that it will cost £60,000,000. The suggestion has also been made by an hon. Member from the other side that the figure is £90,000,000. It seems to me it will be very wrong for us to commit ourselves, even in principle, to such an expenditure of money until after the war, when we know where we are.
  A number of excellent citizens are going about the country promising social justice and a brave new heaven and a brave new earth for everybody in the world, and particularly in this country after the war. In my opinion—and I may be wrong—we shall be extremely lucky if, when the war is over, we are able to maintain the social services at the standard, not an ideal standard, that we have so laboriously built up over such a long period. We shall be even more fortunate if we are able to maintain the standard of living of all classes of the population. There is no doubt that the standard of living of the richer classes will be, as the result of the war, as it has already been, quite properly, brought down heavily, and it will be difficult to maintain even the pre-war standard for the poorer classes. The reason I say that is perfectly simple.
  Let us examine the position in which we shall very likely find ourselves after the war. None of us can actually foresee it, but certain facts are inescapable. For generations we were able to build up by means of our export trade I.O.U.s in foreign countries. Instead of taking exports in return, we left money there in the form of loans, and when

  1907
  our trade balance shifted the other way and we were importing more than we were exporting, the interest on the loans that had been previously built up helped roughly to pay the balance. We could thus still pay our way and were able to import the food and raw materials which we so badly needed. We made up the odd balance in services of various kinds, like shipping, insurance, and so on. Then came the last war. The foreign investments were to a large extent sold in order to enable us to carry on. The balances which we had at the end of the last war in foreign investments were by no means inconsiderable. We have had to mobilise an immense sum in order to help to pay our way at the beginning of this war. It seems to me that when the war is over we shall be in this position. Our foreign balances and investments will largely have gone, and a number of countries, it may be all of them, will try to render themselves self-supporting as nearly as they can and may rightly refuse to accept our services.
  So far from having a rosy view of our post-war position, I think that we shall be very hard to put to it to maintain our standard of life at all. It is a great act, not only of self-deception, but of cruel, wanton deception of the people, to lead them to believe that immediately after the war everything will be all right and that they will be able to afford all kinds of magnificent schemes of social legislation when we may be right up against it and have the greatest difficulty in preventing the people of this country from suffering actual starvation. What I am saying in opposing the scheme of family allowances, as I do, will not be popular with many of my constituents, but it seems to me that every hon. Member who is so fortunate as to be returned to this House must know when to say "No." He must not always be attracted by schemes which have achieved a popularity which they may not deserve on their merits when they are thoroughly examined. We should be very chary of accepting any such scheme as this, however valuable it may be on the face of it, when our future financial and trade position, which enables us to keep our finances in order, is so highly obscure. More than one hon. Member has asked why, if we can afford these sums in wartime, we cannot do so in peace-time.
  1908
  They seem to forget that at the present time we are not paying our way, by no means nearly paying our way. We are obliged to borrow immense sums of money to carry on the business of the war, and we have only been able to get as far as we have by pushing down the standard of life of the population to a very considerable degree.
  Mr. Logan: Does the hon. and gallant Member mean that because we are not paying our way any Measure that is absolutely required for the nation will not be brought into operation?
  Major Petherick: Naturally it will depend upon the Measure. It would be brought in if it were a Measure necessary to enable us to win the war. We must get the guns, the ships and the aeroplanes, whether we are able to pay for them now by taxation or whether we have to borrow. We have had to borrow heavily. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in dealing with that kind of suggestion, gave a very good analogy the other day, and I will give another one. It is to try and prove that because you need something urgently and desperately now that does not necessarily hold good for all time. If I go into a shop to buy a pair of shoes, paying £2 for them, and it takes me a quarter of an hour to make that purchase, I am spending money at the rate of £8 an hour; and if we reckon ourselves as working a 12-hour day—and I am sure most Members are working that—it comes to nearly £100 a day. I do not think that even the most gigantic pre-war income would be able to stand expenditure at that rate for long.
  Mr. Logan: If the hon. and gallant Member spends money that way, he will never spend any.
  Major Petherick: All I am suggesting is that in the long run a nation, like an individual, has to live within its income. There are a number of people who seem to have an extraordinary fallacy in their minds. They perfectly well understand how it is that a man with £8 a week is unable to buy a Rolls-Royce motor car, but they think that 45,000,000 people can do collectively that which each of them cannot do individually. Therefore, on the financial side I think we should be wrong to lend ourselves to deception of the people by accepting proposals of this kind.

  1909
  I now come to the proposals themselves. So far I have dealt only with whether we can afford them and whether or not this is the right time for them. On the question of the proposals themselves, I can very well understand that there are certain advantages which hon. Members have put forward. The scheme would enable a man who was not well off to bring up his children healthily and well. That is undoubtedly true, but I believe that the proposal itself, quite apart from its financial aspect, contains a number of flaws. Suppose a fairy godmother were to fly over the country and wave a wand over a number of families, and was able to give to each of them £1,000 a year for ever. I wonder how many of the heads of those families would continue to work. The point I am getting at is that there is the question of incentive. I believe that even before the war we were very near to the borderline when the incentive to work was gradually being removed.
  Mr. James Griffiths: If the hon. and gallant Member believes that poverty is essential to create incentive, will he carry that argument to its logical conclusion and say that in order that there shall be an incentive to work there shall be no inheritances?
  Major Petherick: Not at all. I think one of the best motives, indeed, one of the noblest motives, for working that a man has is in order that he may store up money to leave to his children. The whole history of the world has been built up on the foundation of the family life, on a man working not only to bring up and educate his children, but in order to leave them, when he dies, if possible more comfortable than he was himself. Where a country has removed, even temporarily, this incentive, unfortunate results have immediately come about, and generally that policy has had to be reversed. I would refer to the experience of one of our Allies. Everybody was to be level—a levelling down, then possibly a slow levelling up—but very soon they found that the lack of incentive meant that the people were not working. They had to reintroduce incentive in various forms. The Stakhanoff plan was one of them; social differences were also admitted; and piece-work was reintroduced into industry. It was done for the perfectly good reason that, as everybody knows, sooner
  1910
  or later there must be the incentive to work I strongly maintain that if a man finds that everything is being done for him, he will not put his best endeavours into his work.
  There is one rather strange fallacy which has come out as a result of this Debate. It is mentioned in the Paper No. 20 which was circulated to us, and it was repeated by the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White), who spoke from the Liberal benches:
  "It has never been suggested that parents who enjoy Income Tax rebates or existing forms of children's allowances fail in their duty to their children."
  The suggestion is that children's allowances and rebates of Income Tax are practically indistinguishable. Hon. Members who make that claim have failed to distinguish between receiving and giving. In the case of children's allowances the 5s. a week for each child is a gift from the State. In the case of Income Tax the State is receiving, it is not giving. The State is receiving from the Income Tax payer something which he has earned by the sweat of his brow or has obtained as interest, and is allowing him to pay a little less than he would pay ordinarily because he has children. We must distinguish between giving and receiving.
  In conclusion, I would say that I cannot see any philosophical or practical argument in the contention that some people in the nation should necessarily contribute to the support of the children of other people, to put it perfectly crudely. If they are destitute or in need, it has been for a long time an accepted principle that we should do so, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) said in his eloquent speech, and that is right; but I do not believe it is right that one set of people should necessarily contribute to the support of another set of people's children. I do not think it is right that a husband and wife who are anxious to have a child or a number of children should do so with the assurance that those children will be supported by their neighbours, because that is what the scheme comes to. The policy which is now being advocated is a complete departure from the previous principle that a man should be rewarded so far as possible for the work that he does. It means the acceptance of an entirely new principle, that a man should be rewarded not only for what he does but also

  1911
  in accordance with the number of his children. There will be no vote on this Motion to-day, as I understand. I gather that it will go to a Committee and will be thoroughly examined. I hope that the Committee will in no sense be packed by supporters of the Motion but that it will be a fact-finding committee, and that every kind of evidence pro and con will be taken. On that understanding I should not, even if there was a Division, oppose the Motion.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: The hon. Member has said that this was not the appropriate time to raise this question; but in war-time, as in peace, we should make every effort to maintain our social services, and if necessary to improve them. We know that committees are being set up to deal with post-war planning. If, as we have heard, it is essential that family allowances should be the basis of our social services, surely this is the time to discuss the matter. It has been felt by some people that it may be a little selfish to discuss family allowances when we are at war and while men are losing their lives, but—I want to point this out to hon. Members opposite as there is a danger that they may forget it—on the home front in war-time, as in peace-time, there are more casualties as a result of malnutrition and preventable disease in one year than the whole war produces in maimed and wounded men and men suffering from other disabilities. Do not let us confine ourselves to wartime casualties but include peace-time casualties also.
  Hon. Members have emphasised that the drawback to this scheme is its expense, but there are benefits which may accrue which will be well worth the expense. It is not denied that the greatest poverty exists in families where there are a large number of dependent children and that there is also widespread malnutrition. In such families there is also a high degree of sickness. Sickness and disease always stalk hand in hand with poverty. Family allowances, rather than increasing the burden on the taxpayer, may reduce the rates and taxes which are used in large part to deal with the results of our disregard for the well-being of the population. Our social services deal, in great measure, with the end-products of a social system which has kept a large part of
  1912
  our population at the subsistence level. Therefore, any means whereby we can reduce the demand for hospital and ancillary services will reduce taxation. I appeal to the opponents of family allowances to regard it as a long-term policy. As a practical individual I do not think that the expensive patching-up process of the human machine will pay us as a nation, in the long run. It is poor economy. I am surprised that our business men opposite do not think so too. Large employers of labour now set up clinics for their workpeople, in their factories and businesses, not because the employers of labour are necessarily large-hearted or very anxious to keep their workpeople in good health, but in many cases because they find it is a good economic proposition in the long run to keep the nation healthy.
  Why do our big business-men not look at the finances of the nation in the same way as they look at their own finances? Why do they not realise that this expenditure on social services is a good investment which may return dividends of incalculable value in terms of health and happiness? This proposal is to be a long-term policy, and I am certain that our calculations are sound. I suppose all reforms which have been discussed in this House have been opposed on the ground that it was not the appropriate time to introduce them. It is never time for reforms. I think of the struggle that enlightened individuals had during the last century when they were urging this House to introduce public health reform and of the opposition there was; yet we have now stamped out certain diseases because we invested that money in our public health services. The dependants of the people who opposed those reforms now have an expectation of life, as a result of that investment by the State, 10 years longer than had their grandfathers. I ask hon. Members to look at this proposal not simply as a burden upon the taxpayer next year or the year after, but as an excellent investment which will give very good returns.
  I want to deal with the effects upon the child. My experience always has been that the well-fed child is the alert and receptive child. I predict confidently that if the standard of living of our child population is improved there will be a rapid decline in juvenile delinquency. The

  1913
  child which is badly fed and badly housed always tends to be anti-social. The so-called dead-end kid is often the badly fed and badly housed kid. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider the fact that the State has to pay very large sums to support our approved schools, remand homes and so on. If the proposed investment is made in our child population we may find there will be economy along those lines also. Last week, I was impressed by the interim report of the Medical Planning Commission, which is now outlining a scheme which will be introduced after the war and will give a comprehensive medical service to every individual in the country.
  Viscountess Astor: I am not so certain about that.
  Dr. Summerskill: When the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Medical Planning Commission issue their final report the scheme will cost this country a large sum of money. The time will come, probably, when I shall stand here and urge the House to accept the scheme, but let us not put the cart before the horse. Let us ensure to-day that the child receives a bottle of milk before he receives a bottle of medicine. If you give it the bottle of milk to-day, it may not need the bottle of medicine next year. All these social evils, including crime and malnutrition, must be approached from the preventive rather than the curative angle. When we debated education last week we heard about the extra opportunity which the child will receive after the war. At the beginning of this century, I think in 1907, we decided it was important that the child should have a medical examination at school because sick children were unreachable. In 1942, when we discuss education in the post-war world, we know that the underfed child will not profit by education. It is short-sighted policy to introduce any of these new schemes until we can ensure that we have a healthy and well-fed child population. Finally, I believe that family allowances will enable a child to achieve its maximum mental and physical potentialities.
  Mr. Spearman: I should like to support the Motion before the House to-day. I do not look upon family allowances as a permanent alternative to higher wages but, in these very difficult days, I look upon them as the most efficient method I have
  1914
  seen suggested for dealing with poverty in its most acute form and in the form which is perhaps most damaging to the future well-being of the country. If I heard him aright, I think the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) took the view that it was the business of the parent and not of the State to maintain the child; but on account of the war and the limitation on wage increases, the position now is rather artificial, and I suggest that a very strong case can be made out in these days for this kind of help; although I hope that some of us may live long enough to see wages so high that family allowances can be dispensed with. The hon. and gallant Member for Bolton (Sir E. Cadogan) referred in a very gloomy way to the difficulties we are heaping up for ourselves after the war. I quite agree that that may be so, but completely deny that it is inevitable; I believe that it is within our own control, with the exercise of good will on all sides, with wise direction and hard work, to produce a prosperous State after the war, always assuming that we can obtain a satisfactory peace within a reasonable period.
  I should like to quote what Professor Keynes said in Manchester in that connection:
  "I believe that this time it will take us three years to recover from the effects of the war. During that period we must willingly submit to discipline—progressively less severe than in time of war, but nevertheless more difficult perhaps to bear in time of peace. After that period we can reasonably expect to obtain a measure of prosperity and health not only not less but higher than ever before. We can only lay sound foundations for that by accepting the discipline of the first three years."
  He goes on to say:
  "It is a matter not of the niggardliness of Nature but of the organisation of relations"—
  he is speaking of international relations—
  "honest purpose, and, above all, hard and un-trammelled thinking."
  I feel that there should be a very clear distinction drawn between what is possible after the war and what is possible just now. It is estimated that the suggested family allowance of 5s. for every child would cost in the neighbourhood of £100,000,000 every year. The increases proposed last week for old age pensioners, an almost equally deserving object, in my opinion, would cost about the same. The total of £200,000,000 is just about equal to the entire dividends received

  1915
  from our overseas investments before the war. I believe that too little attention is paid to the difference between what can be done in the open economy of peacetime—when it is only a question of whether the Budget can be balanced, that is whether it is practicable to increase taxation or not—and in the closed economy of war. Quite clearly, to create a fresh demand for hundreds of millions of pounds' worth of goods in war-time means either a reduction in the war effort or an increased demand for a given amount of goods with a consequent rise of prices all round, which of course will affect most particularly the working man.
  I have heard it suggested that if we are spending such huge sums, it will not much matter if we spend a little more. But a great deal of what we are spending now is not income at all. It is derived from the sale of our foreign investments, which is a thing which is finished, and from the consumption of pre-war stocks which cannot be replaced. Also, I would like to point out that if our war object was to spend a certain sum, say £15,000,000 a day, it might also be argued that it would not matter to divert a little. But surely we need to spend everything we can, with no limit, on the war, provided that we get good value. Whether we have had good value during the past two years either in the supply or even in the choice of weapons is not a matter which is before the House to-day; but provided we get good value, surely we have not only to increase production all we can, but to divert to that purpose every conceivable thing we can. That being so, I cannot advocate the spending of a sum of about £100,000,000 a year at this particular juncture. I hope, however, that the Chancellor will see his way to pay allowances to children exceeding the first two. That is estimated to cost about £20,000,000. That, it seems to me, would be giving the money where it is most desperately needed. Money spent in that direction would in most cases be money spent on the hard necessities of life. It would not be received by people who do not need it or spent on unnecessary things.
  I was talking yesterday to a constituent of mine who has 10 children, the majority of them under school-leaving age. How can any ordinary working man with an ordinary wage, not an ex-
  1916
  ceptional munition wage, bring up children in such numbers on his existing remuneration and give them all that is necessary for health? If allowances are given to families exceeding two, then, as the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Graham White) was saying, the child would not be penalised by the chance of having been born into a large family. Moreover, as I said before, we have been spending our capital very freely, and surely we now all recognise that one of our most important forms of capital is our man-power. Therefore, is it not an economical way of replenishing our capital to make sure that the children who will form our future man-power are brought up as healthy as possible? I hope that the Chancellor will see his way to make a pledge to give family allowances to all children after the war if conditions then make it possible and if, as I hope, he is still there, and as as an earnest of that pledge I hope he will be able to give at once an allowance to every child exceeding two.
  In conclusion, I would only like to say that I hope that the Chancellor's fertility of imagination in thinking out the sacrifices we must make has not been exhausted by the Budget; if he grants these allowances, costing about £20,000,000, I hope that he will find ways of restricting the purchasing power of us all so that the war effort will be in no way affected.
  Mr. Montague: I have heard, while listening to the Debate, on one side echoes of Dr. Malthus and on the other of Dr. Samuel Smiles, and I rather feel that while we hear a good deal about the 1922 Committee there must be some remnants left of the 1822 Committee. I feel acutely a sense of embarrassment in rising to take a line that is opposite to, or at any rate different from, the point of view of the majority of my own party. I take that point of view as a Socialist and because I believe that the proposal for family allowances is one that is characteristic of Liberal social reform and will defeat its purpose from the standpoint of solving the problem even of juvenile poverty. I do not believe that within a money economy, upon the principle of dividing up the proceeds of a system of profit-making and inequality, you can ever approach a solution of the problem of poverty. That is my point of view, and it is that point of view about which I wish to say a word or two.

  1917
  I notice that in the leaflet which has been sent to every hon. Member on family allowances and the Labour movement it is stated that 200 Members of Parliament have signified their adherence to this Motion or to something like it, that over a hundred of them are members of the Conservative party, and that in a Debate in another place not a word was said against the principle, every speaker being in favour of giving family allowances. I have frequently seen the finger of accusation pointed to the other side, accompanied by remarks about the serried ranks of privilege and the conspiratorial capitalists of the Conservative party who are always finding ways and means of crushing the worker and the poorer people of society. I hope that I shall not hear quite so much of that kind of thing in future, because if this kind of proposal is one calculated to solve the problem of poverty in this country, to talk about the Tory party and the defenders of the capitalist system as being those who are crushing the poor is obviously out of place.
  They are in favour, as is the Liberal party as a whole, of the principle of family endowment, which is put forward as a means of relieving the stress of poverty upon the children of the people as a whole. I notice that in the leaflet to which I have referred it is stated that in no country has it ever proved possible to establish a living wage sufficient to support even three children. Why is it impossible, under the system which operates in these countries, to provide a living wage sufficient to support an average family of mother and father and three children? Because it cannot be done under the money economy. Yet it is suggested that by spreading out the existing income of capitalist society you are going to solve this problem of poverty.
  Miss Rathbone: Does the hon. Member not see that the argument he is using would justify him in opposing every social reform which is put forward? They are all ameliorations of conditions under the existing system.
  Mr. Montague: I quite appreciate that point of view, and I was going to deal with it. But there is a vast difference between dealing with one kind of social reform and with another. I am not an impossibilist: I believe in social reform;
  1918
  but I do not want a social reform which is nothing else but largesse from the State to a section of society. I believe in social reform which is calculated to lead to a new order of production for use. So far as pensions are concerned, you have to deal with the derelicts of society, the old people, and the rest. Who pays for it? The Tory party, who sign manifestos like this? No; it is all paid for by the workers of this country. It is part of the tribute which they pay for the system which we have at the present time. But in no country has it been possible to establish a living wage sufficient to support even three children. I claim that it is impossible, by family allowances or any measure of that kind, to solve the problem of poverty in this country. In any event, it is only playing a cat-and-mouse game with the cost of living. That is an endless process.
  It was suggested by another Member of the Liberal party that some alternative should be proposed. It may be very unfashionable, but I propose a Socialist alternative: to guarantee the basis of nutrition for every person in this country. That is a vastly different thing. You have the possibility of producing the elementary necessaries of life. You know what a nutritional standard is. I have support for my ideas from Sir John Orr, who has said quite definitely that there is no solution except by making the necessities of life a public service. That is very different from largesse. I object to this idea of distributing money. It is a question either of relief from one section of society to another, with the means test and all the rest of it, or else it is simply a case of handing money also to people who do not need it, with no guarantee that it will be used except for purposes of general enjoyment. As a Socialist, I do not think that it is a sonud principle to hand out public money to people to subsidise their incomes, apart from necessity. It is a very old principle. We know an historic case where it was done, and what it led to. I do not believe in making paupers of the class to which I belong. Either you will do that or else you will restrict payments to the needs of the people—and then you have the means test again. It will be one or the other.
  I have here the Government's memorandum upon milk policy. I was very interested in two diagrams in it. One

  1919
  shows graphically the muddled anarchic distribution of milk in the city of Bristol at the present time, and the other shows the plan to be put into operation for a scientific milk supply to that city and its area. I was reminded of some of the earliest Socialist propaganda. I remember a leaflet by a great Socialist leader, called "Milk and Postage Stamps," showing how you could rationalise the milk industry of this country as a public service, without making it an appalling financial charge on the future. I could show, quite easily, how it could be done, and without making it a question of paying money from one section of society to another—indeed, that will not be done, because the ordinary folk of this country will be the people who will pay, in higher prices or in some other way, sooner or later—and without that kind of thing which is leading millions of our people to demand largesse from the State. I find that sort of thing in my own constituency. I was told last night that if I spoke in opposition to this proposal, I should lose several hundreds of votes at the next election. I do not care. I do not want votes on those terms. We are going on the wrong road by leading people to think that if they vote for our parry they will get money ad lib. I protest against that, as a Socialist. That is not Socialism, or anything like Socialism.
  I want to put one proposition to the hon. Lady who seconded this Motion. It is said in the leaflet which she, I believe, distributed, that social services cannot go far in helping to provide the basic needs, such as food and house room. The argument is against merely extending the idea of social services. Will family endowment increase the availability of house room for the poor people of this country?
  Miss Rathbone: None of us has ever put forward family allowances as a Holloway pill that would cure all the ills of society. We have put it forward as one among a number of reforms.
  Mr. Montague: I am answering this leaflet, which mentions this question of the housing of the people and of poor children as one of the subjects that would be dealt with by a system of family endowment. We know what will be the effect of the demand to increase house room for the children of the poor. It
  1920
  means increased rents, nothing else—simply putting money into the pockets of the landlords if that happens at the expense of the State, which again is something not to be supported rationally or from the standpoint of sound finance. But I take the line myself that you cannot solve the problem of poverty just by adjusting things within the money economy of capitalism. You can improve certain conditions, but you are not proposing to do that. You are proposing to solve the problem here. It is not the same thing as ordinary social services.
  Let me ask this question. I ask it of the Members of my own party. We are in favour of free education from the elementary school to the university. In 1870 elementary education was established, and afterwards became free. No one ever proposed then that the State should provide endowments for parents so that the parents could put 1d., 2d. or 6d. into the hands of Jim, Tom or Annie, to pay their school fees. The Labour party does not propose that there shall be State grants in order that the fees for university education shall be paid by the parents indirectly out of the proceeds of a subsidy of that character. We stand for free education, and free education has been supported all the time upon the ground that that is the only way in which you can guarantee the proper and efficient education of the people of this country.
  Let me take another point. We stand for a State medical service that shall be a free service. That is the kind of social reform I believe in. That is leading up to the ultimate ideal for which I have stood all my life, and is a far different thing from the Liberal playing ups and downs within the competitive system, which I do not believe in at all. It is not proposed to give money grants by the State in order that the families of the poor shall be able to pay their doctors' bills. Why is that not proposed? There would be no guarantee about the doctors' bills being paid, anyhow. There is no guarantee that this money will be used for the benefit of the children. Unless you are to have a means test, you will have hundreds of thousands of families in this country who will simply increase their standard and pleasures of life as a result of this increase. I do not mind increasing the standard or the pleasures of life, but I do say that the idea of a State subsidy for that purpose is thoroughly unsound and

  1921
  uneconomic. On the other hand, if you are to have what will be a compromise—and this will be a compromise if it comes to anything—that compromise will be the means test. My colleague on my left who is not in the House now wound up a very eloquent speech by appealing to the people on the other side—why the other side exclusively I do not know—not to be so niggardly with their money, to let their money go out in order to build up a finer Britain, and all the rest of it. The term I would have to use to answer that is rather a vulgar one. If I were to answer it, I would say, "Damn your money; that is not Socialism; that is not what I am after. I do not care about your money or anyone else's money."
  The principle of Socialism for which this party stands is the principle of production for use, and production for use as exemplified in direct social services, free education, and a multitude of things where you have that principle, a thoroughly Socialistic one. You do not spread money about like muck, in the old phrase about the Yorkshireman, in order to provide these social services. Now you propose that there shall be family endowments to cost anything from £60,000,000 to £130,000,000, and that that will solve the problem of the poverty of poor children. I do not want the problem of the poverty of the poor dealt with in that way. I agree that the hon. Lady who seconded this Motion wants this family endowment for every family in the country. That is just as objectionable as the other. If you subsidise the incomes of the middle class and other people who have no need of it, that leads to the breakdown of the character and resiliency of the people. I do not want pauperism for the poor. I do not want the means test. I have nothing to say for the economics of the casual ward.
  If you want to solve the problem of nutrition, you must take the elements of nutrition out of the money economy and say, as Sir John Orr and his Committee have said, that the people require—assuming things are normal and leaving war conditions out of account for the moment—so much as a standard of nutrition; we know what it is. Let us at least guarantee that to the whole of the nation as a foundation of its physical existence on which all the rest can be built. That is a sounder principle and would be quite as easy to do. It is half done already in
  1922
  some cases under the stress of war. Yet we find Socialists to-day talking as if all you have to do is to share money out in order to solve the problem of poverty. I say that is rubbish. It is not Socialism and it is not the way to solve the problem of poverty.
  Captain York: One of the things that has surprised me most in this Debate has been the extraordinary sway of opinion from one side of the House to the other. Another thing which surprises me almost as much is the fact that the majority of the hon. Members who have spoken seem to have forgotten that it is the children we are dealing with, and not political substances. This point is something which the younger generation is thoroughly sick and tired of—party politics, political faiths, political principles—but we never get down to the real facts of life. I shall address the very brief remarks I intend to make entirely upon the point of view of the younger generation, and in particular those people who are in the Services. During the period in which we should be embarking upon the most exciting period of our lives, marrying and beginning our family, we have been dispersed to all corners of the world in the defence of our country and of our cause. Many of us married just before the war and many more during the war. All are afflicted by the parsimony of the Treasury and by the disgraceful, unjust wage policy of the Government. Their young babies, many of whom have never yet seen their fathers, are greatly helped by the allowances which have been brought into force by the War Department, but, of course, this alters if the father is killed in action. I had a case of this the other day, where the wife of a sailor, while he was alive, was able to obtain free milk and free vitamins. That man was killed on active service, and then his poor, lonely widow is told, "No more free milk or vitamins for you. You must now pay for them." That is not justice. That is the system under which we have worked. While husbands are scattered all over the world we can insure something for them in this country so that their children will come to no harm from financial stringency and when they come home these fathers will know that, despite the vicissitudes through which this country is bound to pass in the twilight period after the war,

  1923
  their children will be safe from the main depression and hardships.
  We hear of young married couples who say it is wrong to produce children into this world of chaos. That is a despicable statement and I say to the hon. Member who, earlier to-day, made a similar and worse statement that it is unnatural and unpatriotic. Be that as it may, the fact remains that it shows a defeatist attitude and shows to what conclusions the economic policy of the past and the lines of thought of some of our elders and so-called betters have led. I sincerely hope that this war if it does nothing else will eradicate that line of thought and that mentality. The eternal wrangle, big business mentality on the one side and trade union narrow-mindedness on the other, is the result of this line of thought and those forces which we have seen in play to-day are responsible or may be responsible for the real opposition to the scheme—not the opposition in this House but the opposition behind the scenes. This is what we the younger generation say, "To the devil with both." We want no vested interests whether from the Right or the Left to withhold from us a scheme which, perhaps, above all schemes, apart from the war effort, commands the widest support.
  All Chancellors of the Exchequer have hearts of gold, but whether the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has one made from the substance of which the streets of heaven are paved or whether it is made from a baser material of which the idols of the City of London are manufactured remains to be judged by his actions in this matter. I suspect that he is strongly infected with the big business virus. But let my words act upon him as an emetic and let us have some new thought more in keeping with the generation who are fighting this war and with the ideals that lead us into the battlefield. We want a big scheme State-aided if you will but embracing every child rich and poor, eliminating the Income Tax allowances in respect of children which obtain at the present time. Let it be paid weekly in cash to the mother, and go hand in hand with the extended milk in school scheme. I know we shall have mothers who may spend this money on dress or drink, but they will be in a very small minority and it is no argument to use against such a scheme. I know also that there will be
  1924
  bad feeding by mothers, but as the effect of our long-term educational policy which has gradually improved over the years takes hold, that should disappear. Do not let us continue a system whereby we force upon the mothers' attention the rights and wrongs of bad and good feeling and withhold from them the necessary resources to purchase the necessary food.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer has issued a warning against reckless spending and to this I agree but to those who advance the argument that to spend money on the upbringing of children is reckless spending I would say that it would be better if a millstone were hanged round their necks and they were cast into the sea. I do not want to appear bitter because that is not our mood but it must be remembered that we did not produce this war and it is my generation and not that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who will suffer most in the long run. It is from that point of view that I am speaking now. The grey-beards of the last war have been replaced by the youth of that era, and though their beards may not be so grey, I ask them to remember not only the excitements and the joy of those early years, but also the shadows which come upon them when the fear of a new arrival burdened their souls. Encourage us with a scheme of financial security for our children far more realistic and substantial than anything that has gone before. Let it be a full-blooded scheme for all children until they reach school-leaving age. Justice demands a reward for the blood and the hardships of the battlefield. Give us the certainty that, if we return from this war, our children can be brought up on a decent standard and the generation which is now at the helm can have all the medals.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: I suppose that if I were to follow the example of the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Captain York), I should speak on behalf of the middle-aged. It is a not unimportant class, for we are actually producing the children about whom we are talking. But I think it would be more profitable if I did not follow the lines he took but made some remarks about the scheme in the White Paper. Before I do that, however, I would like to pick up something that was said by my hon. Friend the Member for West Fulham (Dr. Summerskill), who, I thought, put child-

  1925
  ren's allowances in their proper perspective. I would like to add to what she said that children's allowances dovetail in with many other schemes of social reform and are an essential complement to them. For instance, a proper system of children's allowances will make it very much easier to raise the school-leaving age. Another very important reform which will be facilitated by children's allowances is the rate of unemployment benefit and assistance. We should all agree, I suppose, that it is a vicious principle to pay a man more money for being unemployed than for a full week's work, yet that was involved in our social security system without children's allowances, because if children were to be given adequate allowances under unemployment schemes, the total remuneration of the family would be more than the parent would receive at work. If we get this scheme of children's allowances, it will be possible to make that reform, because children will be taken out of the arena, and unemployment benefit and assistance can be independent of the size of the family.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Graham White) has said, this reform has gone the normal way of all English reforms. I am sanguine enough to hope to see it on the Statute Book before long. I have no doubt that the Treasury, under the bland generalship of the Chancellor, will resist tenaciously to the end, but I think we shall see them making strategic withdrawals from one prepared obstacle to another until our object is finally obtained. The principle of family allowances has been so widely accepted in this Debate and outside that I do not propose to say anything further about it. Indeed, there is little new that can be said about the principle of family allowances. Practically the only question at issue is the cost of the scheme. Can the country afford it? My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) has put forward a scheme for the universal payment of 5s. a week for every child in the country. That is the scheme which is envisaged in the White Paper and one which I would like to support now and to examine. I believe that in 1807 Mr. Whitbread introduced an Education Bill which went down to history as the "Five bob a nob Bill," because it was calculated by its parsimonious sponsor that the cost of education under the Bill need not
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  exceed 5s. a child annually. I would like to advocate a "Five bob a nob" scheme now, only on the more generous lines of 5s. a week.
  What is the cost of such a scheme? I think the White Paper, although it sets out to be objective, is rather tendentious in this respect. It gives the impression that the cost of the scheme would be £132,000,000 a year. It is impossible, I suppose, for any piece of writing to be wholly objective except, possibly, the OFFICIAL REPORT. By giving prior place to this figure of £132,000,000 a year the White Paper has left this impression, but the true cost of the scheme envisaged in the White Paper is really £64,000,000 a year. That is the figure which ought to be emphasised. It would be increased only if some Members pressed—as I gather from the Mover they will press—for payment both of Income Tax rebates and of family allowances. That, I think, would be a very dangerous demand, and I hope it will not be pressed. I see no defence for it, either in logic or in ethics, and I can imagine the howl that would go up from the benches opposite if we on this side asked for family allowances in addition to allowances for the unemployed. I hope that whatever payment is made—5s. a week, I imagine—it will be taken into account in making these other payments. If £64,000,000 is the actual figure, can we afford it at the present time and can we afford it after the war? It is very important that we shall be able to continue the scheme after the war, because there must be no Dunkirks in the war against poverty. We must be quite sure that any scheme introduced will be such that the country can afford to pay for it indefinitely. I reckon that £64,000,000 a year is about 1 per cent. of the present national income, and I do not think anybody can pretend that the addition of this sum to our national purchasing power will seriously upset our financial stability.
  I see the Chancellor smiling. It is true that this is not the only claim on his attention at the present time and that recently the Government granted a well-deserved increase to the miners, but, considered in isolation, this extra £64,000,000 will not upset our financial stability. As my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly said, it is really a question of the redistribution of income. What will be the position after the war? When I look at the Government, meditating

  1927
  some good deed but hesitating to do it, I think of the famous hymn, "Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take." We shall not be bankrupt after the war as so many Members opposite have assumed. I think that when Sir William Beveridge has exhausted the tasks which the Government have given him they may well invite him to take a few classes in elementary economics for some Members opposite. It is in some ways melancholy to say it, but our productive capacity will probably increase as a result of the war. Owing to the greater inventiveness called forth by war, it will probably be increased and not diminished by the war. [An HON. MEMBER: "It happened after the last war."] Yes, there is a continual increase in the wealth of the country, and it will be frustrated only if we allow men to rot in idleness instead of being absorbed in productive work.
  Here is another important consideration. The objection is frequently made to adequate pensions for old people that the number of aged people is bound to increase very heavily in the next few decades and that the cost of any old age pensions scheme must automatically increase. That objection cannot be made against a system of children's allowances. Calculations presented to Parliament recently by the Minister of Health on behalf of the Registrars-General give a forecast of the future population of Great Britain. In the opinion of some authorities they are based on optimistic assumptions, but, even so, they forecast that the number of children under the age of 15, which is now about 10,000,000, will fall to approximately 9,000,000 in 1951, 8,500,000 in 1961, and 7,500,000 in 1971. The most we can possibly hope, even with a big increase in the present net reproductive rate, is to maintain the present size of the population under the age of 15. Therefore, there can be no automatic increase in the cost of a scheme of children's allowances for any period to which it would be wise to look forward. In all probability the cost of such a scheme will decline when we consider simply the number of persons involved.
  I would like to refer once again to the White Paper. Paragraph 13 and the Annex are, to my mind, rather tendentious. They have left in readers' minds the impression that a scheme of children's
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  allowances will act as an obstacle to the lowering of the Income Tax. It may not have been intended but I think this portion of the White Paper is hardly objective, for it certainly leaves that impression. The objection, I think, is very departmental. It is true that if the standard rate of Income Tax is lowered, and alterations are made in the conditions under which rebates are received, the cost of a scheme of children's allowances will be increased; but if Income Tax is reduced, it will only be because our expenditure on the war and defence has fallen. Therefore, the country will be far more able to meet expenditure in other directions. I see that the Chancellor seems a little doubtful, but surely that is incontestable. We are, at the moment, in unusual circumstances, and as we move back gradually towards conditions of peace I have no doubt that the scheme will be able to absorb the further charge upon it. In any case, if the day should come when the Chancellor can contemplate a reduction in the standard rate of tax, the effect on children's allowances will be only one of the many Budgetary considerations he must take into account.
  The children are the weakest and most helpless section of the community. They cannot speak for themselves and, if they could, they would not know what to ask for: si la jeunnesse savait! But they have never lacked spokesmen in Parliament. It was in Parliament that Lord Shaftesbury put up his great fight for the emancipation of child labeur in the factories, and it is in Parliament that the hon. Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) has fought for the reform with which her name will always be associated. Parliament now has an opportunity once more to take a step forward on behalf of the children of the country. If we introduce such a scheme as this we shall be strengthening the country in the present; it will be a guarantee of security in the future; it will greatly ease the burden of parenthood and possibly restore the time when we can say:
  "Like as the arrows in the hands of the giant; even so are the young children.
  "Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them."
  Mr. Higgs: The original Motion on the Order Paper, with its 200 signatures, has been referred to,

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  but there is an Amendment to that Motion to which there are only two signatures. That is an indication of the trend of opinion since hon. Members have been thinking seriously about this proposition. How far are we to pursue the principle of paternal government, doing all for the people and not permitting the people to do anything for themselves? If family allowances become an accomplished fact, we shall be getting very near the example set by Speenhamland during the commencement of the last century. It proved to be an absolute failure, and the same conditions will arise this time if we embark upon it. It has been said that the Speenhamland example was responsible for the increase of population at the commencement of the century. But that is quite wrong. We were the pioneer nation in the application of mechanical power, and that was the reason why we were so prosperous then.
  Mr. J. J. Davidson: Will the hon. Member also add that, while we were the pioneers of mechanical power, we were the pioneers of child labour, which brought this country to the position it reached in later years?
  Mr. Higgs: I do not think the hon. Member is right in making that statement. Family allowances have been tried by other nations. They were tried in France at the conclusion of the last war. The cost of living went up, and, instead of increasing wages as we did, they gave family allowances. Family allowances became confused with wages, and they were an absolute failure. That confusion cannot be avoided. Cannot we learn by experience?
  Miss Rathbone: How can the hon. Member possibly sustain that? Does he not know that the system of family allowances in France was such a success that, in 1930, in the middle of the blitz, it was adopted universally with the full support of the employers and the trade unions?
  Mr. Higgs: In the first place, there was no blitz in 1930, and, in the second place, I believe they have been discontinued since. Are we pursuing this problem with a view to increasing the population, because, if so, I doubt whether this country wants a greater population. This country is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. It has
  1930
  a denser population than Holland, Belgium and Germany. I doubt vrey much whether this is the right course to take. Before the war our standard of living was maintained by our overseas trade, and it is very doubtful whether other nations will want our exports after the war. The only commodities we have to export are coal and the products of labour. When we have such countries as Canada and Australia manufacturing the most complicated commodity which man has ever invented—aircraft in their entirety—it is doubtful whether we shall be able to export to those countries. To maintain our standard of living we have to export, and, if we cannot do this, we have to face the fact that we have to have a decrease in population in the future. Does this House realise that today we are living on Lend-Lease aid? If it were not for that, I doubt whether we could exist during this war. Our capacity to produce will be undoubtedly great after the war, but we have to have materials to produce.
  I should like to refer to the White Paper. If ever there were a document which damned a proposition so much, I should like to see it. On pages 4 and 5 one constantly finds such phrases as "unexpected consequences," "difficulties arise," and so forth. The Government point out insurmountable difficulties on the financial side to introducing family allowances. The problem is not insurmountable. We can get the money, as we are to-day, by printing paper. If we have not enough money we can always print it, but inflation is the result. We have had inflation to the extent of nearly 50 per cent. since the war started. Five shillings to-day is equal to 3s. before the war, and, when the war is over, that 5s. may be worth about 1s. It is like the cat trying to catch its own tail. The financial problem is not insurmountable, but it is very undesirable to spend this money. If the money has to be spent, there are alternative methods. I would maintain the standard of wages relative to prosperity. I pay due recognition to all the work which the trade unions have done in that direction during the last century. If I had £130,000,000 to spend—I have not, nor has the nation—I would improve the housing conditions. Give a man a house, and he has a stake in the nation. I would provide more meals for the school children, because I should

  1931
  know they were getting the benefit of the money that is being spent, whereas with family allowances there is no proof that the children will benefit from the money being provided. I would make the milk-in-schools scheme more permanent, and give more attention to welfare and improving medical facilities for children. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to address the House, and I am not going to transgress.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: I have been very interested in this Debate, because it is about 20 years ago that I moved a Motion in favour of widows' pensions in this House, and it was defeated hopelessly on the very grounds that the hon. Member who has just sat down has advanced. Strange as it may seem, he represents a seat in Birmingham which was represented many years ago by the late Joseph Chamberlain, who introduced the first Workmen's Compensation Bill, and, as far as I remember, every argument employed by the hon. Member against this proposal of children's allowances was used against Chamberlain's proposal then. The proposal now under discussion was first made in this country with the idea that family allowances should be paid by each industry, as was the case on the Continent. Family allowances emerged on the Continent on the basis of each industry pooling the wages and dividing them among the workers according to family responsibilities. The International Labour Organisation published some years ago a very good summary of the trend of events on this question from the very commencement, and the House had better understand that the idea emanated from the Latin countries of Europe with the definite intention of increasing the population, and it was introduced in Germany after the last war merely because wages were not sufficient to maintain the average family. The advocates of family allowances have done well, in my view, to shift their ground and, once they called upon the State to pay these allowances direct from the Treasury, many of us who were opposed to the industrial pooling system have come to the conclusion that the proposal is right.
  Miss Rathbone: It is not the case that the advocates of family allowances ever
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  asked for an industrial system. At that stage they merely presented all the various ways of financing the scheme, but they never advocated the industrial system.
  Mr. Davies: I do not think the hon. Lady speaks for all who were advocating family allowances many years ago. Once you remove this proposal from industry and elevate it to the responsibility of the State, it gathers momentum. I have lived long enough to have witnessed practically all our social services come into being. I was a coalminer and met with an accident before workmen's compensation came into operation. I remember the National Health Insurance scheme coming into operation too, and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor was one of its champions. He wrote voluminously on it; that is how he became famous. He became a very prominent person by advocating national health insurance and supporting the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). Speaking as one who has been disbursing provident benefits for 35 years, I say that the notion that you destroy the fibre and personality of the individual by paying him benefits will not hold good. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen knew the boon which has accrued to some poor people by the National Health Insurance scheme they would think twice before they opposed this proposal. [Interruption.] I ask the House, however, to avoid putting this proposal on a contributory basis, because that is what the Conservatives always do. What happened in the past about the social services is, that politicians on the Left propounded schemes such as I was asked to do on behalf of the Labour party with regard to widows' pensions, when we all assumed that, if widows' pensions were adopted as a principle, they would be paid direct from the Treasury. There was propaganda all over the land in favour of that proposal and the Conservatives joined in, but once they got political power, they put the scheme into operation on a contributory basis. That is their method, and that is what I want to avoid this time. I make this appeal again, that if any allowance is paid to the children under any scheme of this kind, the Government will not put the allowance on a contributory basis, because, if they do, all that will happen will be that the State will accept very little financial responsibility;

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  it will be thrown upon employers and employed, as was done with Old Age Pensions, Widows' Pensions, Unemployment Benefit and Health Insurance as well. The contribution of the State to National Health Insurance, for instance, is infinitesimal in comparison with the total amount spent. I urge, once more that, if this scheme is adopted, it shall be definitely on a non-contributory basis.
  I have tried to study the tendencies in our social services. When we adopt a contributory scheme there is never a question of a means test. The argument is then employed that the recipients of benefits have paid for them in advance. But when the State, or a municipality, makes a payment without contributions in advance it is always accompanied by a means test. I trust that, whatever you do, you will never impose a means test in connection with this payment in respect of children. [Interruption.] I have other fears too, and I hope the hon. Gentleman does not mind my being suspicious of him and his Government. If the House of Commons wants to know the value of these social services—and this is another addition to them—let us see what we have accomplished up to now. Before the first workmen's compensation scheme was propounded all that we had was the Poor Law system. Since then we have looked after the injured workmen under the workmen's compensation scheme, we care for the sick and disabled under National Health Insurance, the unemployed under Unemployment Insurance and the aged and the widow under the pensions scheme. We have never yet subsidised the physically fit adult, male or female.
  Now we come to the point of turning our attention to another helpless section of the community—the children. I am very interested in this, because I was the youngest of 11, and my mother died at 34. My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) is the youngest of 10. We come from the same district, by the way.
  Sir Edward Campbell: I was one of 15. My father had not got a bawbee.
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) made the point about the beneficial effects of the social services. The Ministry of Health know more about
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  this than most of us and when those effects are reduced to statistics, they are remarkable. Let me give one instance in that respect. I understand that the London County Council at 12 midnight on 12th February every year in peace time takes a census of the down-and-outs, people without homes and without shelter. When a recent census was taken, they found, almost for the first time, that there was not a single homeless child in the greatest metropolis in the world. That is one of the results of the social services. I know full well the problem which faces the trade unions in this matter, and I would like to give one of the reasons why some sections of the trade union movement do not like family allowances, even when they are paid by the State. Some years ago there was a wages dispute in the Yorkshire woollen industry. Lord MacMillan, if I remember rightly, became the arbitrator, and he heard both the claims of the workpeople and the arguments of the employers. When he arrived at his conclusion, he took into account, in assessing the wages that ought to be paid, the cash value of the social services, which amounted to about 3s. 1d. a week. If that sort of thing is to happen under a scheme of this kind, and the employer or an arbitrator takes into account the value of this new service in assessing wages, it may be taken for granted that the trade union movement will oppose it.
  I support this proposal because the advocates of it have elevated the whole matter to a new plane. We are not now discussing family endowment; we are debating children's allowances. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with his usual decency in affairs—he is very much better than his party—will do one thing, namely, accept this Motion. This Motion is in any case quite innocuous. All it asks him to do is to consider; and if he cannot do that much, he does not deserve to be in his present post when the war ends.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): I would like first to congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Erdington (Wing-Commander Wright) and my hon. Friend the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone), who moved and seconded the Motion, upon the very interesting

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  and instructive Debate which their speeches opened. To me, one of the most interesting features of the Debate has been that the speeches have been so evenly balanced. I think we can truly say that both the pros and cons of family allowances have been pretty exhaustively argued during the last few hours.
  I would like to say a word or two about the White Paper which I issued in May last. It was issued, not with the idea of discussing the merits of the proposal for family allowance, but because my hon. Friends who came to see me, desired me to examine it mainly from a financial point of view. Except by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. I. Thomas), who found some hidden meanings which I, at any rate, never intended—I think the White Paper has been generally regarded as treating impartially the financial implications of the proposal. In that White Paper, I also ventured to give, as a preface to the financial statement, a short summary setting out the considerations advanced by those who advocate that the State, as a next step in our social programme, should give children further assistance, through their parents, by payments in cash; and as well, the views of those who feel that the welfare of the children could, in fact, be best promoted by the further development of our social services, such as improved housing, education and health. I think those views have been again fairly expressed in the Debate.
  Having listened to practically the whole of the Debate, I think it can be said that the case for a system of family allowances is certainly very powerful, particularly the point—and this is the point which appeals to me most—that such a plan would considerably lessen the risk of malnutrition in large families. Of course, if that could be achieved by a system such as that proposed by my hon. Friend, it would indeed mean a great deal to the well-being and efficiency of this nation, as well as a considerable benefit to the children themselves. There has also been mentioned—although it has not been particularly emphasised in this Debate—the possible influence of family allowances in encouraging parenthood. Support from all sections of opinion in the nation for such a plan as has been mentioned to-day has steadily grown. It has been urged as one of the most beneficial measures of social
  1936
  reform we could embark, upon at the present time. For myself, I would say that the effect of family allowances has in particular been powerfully advocated by Mr. Rowntree in his book, with a considerable amount of evidence in support as a considerable factor in reducing the grosser forms of poverty in this country. Certainly his recent survey of conditions in York is a most impressive and a most valuable contribution to our social knowledge. Due weight must be given to his main conclusions that very often wages were inadequate, when account is taken of the number of children who had to be supported. Other reasons and arguments have been given with power by various of my hon. Friends to-day.
  Even if we accept the principle of family allowances, a number of important matters would still remain to be decided, which raise important questions of policy and administration. Take, for instance, questions which naturally arise in considering any scheme of this kind; such as whether such a scheme should be contributory or non-contributory—whether its benefits should extend to families of all incomes or be confined to the poorer ones—and whether it should be confined to the larger families by excluding the first eligible child, or the first two eligible children, in each family. These, apart from the question of finance, are important issues which have to be decided. There are also other important, and wider, considerations—namely, what, for instance, would be the effect of family allowances upon the present war-time economy, particularly if they were given on a large scale and paid in cash?—what would be the effect of putting a large amount of new purchasing power in the hands of parents without reducing the purchasing power in the hands of other persons, and without being able to provide any corresponding increase in the supplies of goods and services?
  I would like to pause there a moment, because it is wise for the House to have these questions in mind not solely in considering this present proposal, but also in connection with others that come before us. It is not under war conditions primarily a question of the money involved. It is a question of our total resources in goods and labour; and of both of these our stock is limited. If any class of civilians is given new claims against that stock then, unless new demands can be

  1937
  precisely matched by a cancellation of claims by other civilians, the soundness of our war economy, that we have striven so hard to build up, may well be impaired, and our war effort would suffer accordingly.
  There is also the question whether, assuming the money is available, the best way of spending it is to issue a cash allowance to the parents, or whether the children would not benefit more certainly and directly if it were disbursed in kind under the control of either the State or the municipality. We have heard in the course of this Debate that there are also those who strongly advocate that any available money should be spent on a much wider provision of free meals for school children, on medical provision, on more milk and on other measures of that kind. As has been said with considerable force during the Debate, there is doubt as to the value of allowances paid in cash, and whether the money would be spent any differently from, say, a rise in wages, and the benefit of the allowance diffused through all the items of expediture of all members of the household. All these are important matters to be determined. I am sure that they have not been raised to-day or mentioned by me, by way of obstruction. They are serious issues, which must be taken into account before conclusions can be reached by the Government, and finally by Parliament.
  I would observe, particularly to my hon. Friend who spoke early in the Debate on behalf of the Labour party, that I am afraid that such difficulties cannot be resolved so easily and so quickly as he seemed to dispose of them, by saying, "It is true there is a conflict between those who believe in family allowances and those who believe in the extension of the health services, but we can get over that very easily by saying, Let us go in for all these schemes. Family allowances can easily be accompanied by extensions of the various social services which have been mentioned in all parts of the House to-day, and by those means we shall all get a happy issue out of our difficulties and conflicts." That is hardly the position that faces the House and the Government to-day. It is my duty once again to call attention to the important financial implications involved, not only in the proposal for family allowances, but in an even greater degree in any suggestion that we should
  1938
  meet our difficulties by accompanying family allowances by other extensions of the social services.
  I was very glad indeed to hear the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys-Davies)—who has practically given his life to the social services of this country, as I know so well—speak in high terms of our social services, and to hear him give that very remarkable illustration of what the last census revealed about children in London. I do not think we should decry the efforts that have been made. I do not claim them for any particular party in the State. They have to a very large extent been the product of the endeavours of all sections, irrespective of any particular political belief. Think of our maternity and child welfare services, our free or cheap milk for nursing and expectant mothers and children under five, our provision for the medical needs of children, for school meals, and for milk in schools. While I agree that these provisions are, no doubt, capable of extension, I myself know of no other country that has made such provision as we have. Besides all this, there is the stabilisation policy, which was introduced by me on behalf of this Government, and which I am anxious to maintain, but which has involved us in some £150,000,000 a year. That is of considerable benefit to the children. These schemes which we have already are costing considerable sums of money. My hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton has, as I have said, been engaged in these services for a very long period—I was with him in the early days—and it is amazing to see not only how the services have grown, but also how the cost has grown. Take, for instance, old age and contributory pensions, national health insurance, education and the subsidies which we pay for housing. Ten years ago they were costing the State some £122,000,000. That sum has now mounted—I do not say this because I by any means object; indeed I helped to bring a good many of them about—to the very large sum of £200,000,000.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: That argument has been used very often. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to relate it fairly? The fair way to relate it is not to give the over-all expenditure on these services but to relate that to the percentage of the national income which it represented then and the percentage it represents now.
  Sir K. Wood: I should not like to get into that argument now.
  Mr. Griffiths: It is a very relevant one.
  Sir K. Wood: I should like to say that no one can get up in this House and say that the condition of the children has not immeasurably improved during the last 10 or 15 years. The fact still remains that while all this is true, we have yet to face the cost. Moreover, the cost is rising to very large sums. One thing that pleases me very much about this Debate, and that has given me a lot of personal satisfaction, is that nobody got up and said that family allowances were going to cost only so many days of the war. That argument seems to have disappeared for the moment. I do not think it is yet realised that the war has meant not only the raising of the level of taxation to unprecedented heights, but there are other important effects. I emphasise this, because some of my hon. Friend have invited me to consider this proposal from the point of view of imposing further taxation. I invite them to look again at what I said in my Budget speech about the possibilities of further taxation, and particularly at the position of the higher incomes. The hon. Member opposite who spoke a little while ago with such acceptance would be one of the first to realise exactly where I should have to look, and to what section of the community, if further taxation had to be imposed. Moreover, I do not think it is yet realised that the present burdens of very heavy taxation affect not only the rich, for whom it has been unprecedented, but people of the lower sections of the community, who are realising for the first time what taxation is. I do not blame them that they feel the effect and the difficulty of it very much.
  I would also like to remind the House of the equally unprecedented concentration of practically all our available financial resources on the war effort. I have never been a pessimist, and have never taken the line that this or that should not be done, but I do now say to the House that we must not forget that this unprecedented concentration of all our available financial resources on the war effort has meant the drawing upon capital which in peace would be required for development. Also, and very important from the point of view of the future, it has meant the postponing of the maintenance
  1940
  of assets worn or partially worn. Another very serious matter is that it has meant drawing on stocks. Lastly—and this is a matter that we do not talk about very much—it has meant the sale of many foreign investments. Many of these things cannot be repeated. I have never taken the view as my colleagues will know, that we cannot surmount our difficulties; and I have never taken a strict and difficult line on any of these matters, which I now mention, but I do say that every reasonable person must take them into account in considering projects like that now before the House, especially if he desires to see the country in a financial position after the war which will enable it to go forward to better conditions and happier times. Certainly, we cannot settle what we can afford by way of permanent annual expenditure in peace by reference to what has been found to be imperative in the wholly exceptional circumstances of this war. I have felt bound to offer these observations to the House to-day.
  There are only two other matters to which I would refer. One is the attitude of the Labour party and trade unions on the subject of family allowances. No one will dispute that when we come to consider projects of this kind, Parliament is supreme. Parliament has the right and the power—which it has exercised over and over again—to sweep on one side all "vested," special or selfish interests. Such things have never weighed with such a House of Commons as we have to-day. But it is obvious that much consideration should be given to views and opinions from all sections of the community. As we know, for it is a matter of special importance, family allowances' have long been the subject of discussion in trade union circles, which have been particularly apprehensive about their effect on wage negotiations. It is true, and it should be said, that there has been a recent change in trade union opinion. We know—for it is public property—that at the Whitsuntide Conference of the Labour party a resolution was adopted in favour of a non-contributory cash scheme of children's allowances. But we must not assume from that that the matter is yet removed from the controversial sphere. Several of the most important trade unions were opposed to it, and although the resolution was passed by what looked like a good

  1941
  majority—a million votes—those who follow the voting at these conferences must not pay undue attention to that million. If, as I understand the position, the Miners Union had liked to vote the other way, the result could have been very different.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: But they did not like.
  Sir K. Wood: All I would add—because it is rather a domestic concern of the unions—is that Sir Walter Citrine stated publicly at the end of a meeting of the General Council of the Trades Union Congress, that a final decision would have to be taken at the annual congress in September, whatever might be the decision of the Labour party at Whitsuntide.
  Reference has been made to the Beveridge Committee. Sir William Beveridge, with the assistance of an Interdepartmental Committee, is, as the House knows, now carrying out a survey of the existing schemes of social insurance and like services, including workmen's compensation. It is true that family allowances are not strictly within the terms of the inquiry, but it is obviously a matter which is very closely associated with it, and which must, I think, be considered in conjunction with any report from the Committee. Therefore, the position of the Government which I have to state to-day is this: The Government, of course, welcome the opinion from the House, expressed in the Debate to-day, and as it appears in the Motion moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Erdington. If the Motion is adopted by the House—as I anticipate it may well be—the Government, as it requests them to do, will give it full consideration. This subject must, however, be considered by the Government in the light of the considerations I have mentioned—the report of the Beveridge Committee, the further conclusions of organised labour, and the financial position. In conclusion, I will say that it should be possible for all these matters to be adequately considered in the autumn. I think we shall have the reports I have mentioned by then, and they will be given our immediate attention. Conclusions will be reached as rapidly as possible and, of course, communicated to the House, when no doubt they will be the occasion of further discussion and deliberation.
  Mr. Lipson: I welcome the opportunity of saying a few words on this subject of family allowances, because of my interest in the matter. I have been present throughout the Debate, except for one hour, during which I had to attend a meeting of the Committee on National Expenditure. I recognise that the Chancellor was unable to give a definite pledge to-day that he would accept family allowances, but I also recognise that he has been quite sympathetic in his approach to the problem. One would hardly expect the right hon. Gentleman to welcome with open arms, particularly during the war, any proposal for the spending of a considerable sum of money, but I do not agree with him when he suggests that the granting of family allowances during the war would be a danger to war economy and might help to bring about inflation. One has to recognise that the cost of living has gone up during the war and that that cost is bound to bear most heavily on those who have children to maintain. And though I do not want to put forward, in normal times, family allowances as a means of keeping wages down, I think it is a factor that can rightly be taken into account in war-time by the Chancellor when he is trying to maintain a wages stabilisation policy.
  My own view is that, from the point of view of money, family allowances would save the State, as the chief employer of labour in war-time, more money than they are likely to cost. I feel that, in a good deal of this discussion, too much attention has been given to the financial aspect of this question, to the outgoings of the nation, and not enough to the incomings. The income of the State has increased considerably during the last few years and even since the war, and I think one must look to an increase in national income to bear the inevitably bigger claims that will be made for family allowances and social services of that kind. The only way in which the State can meet these inevitable demands is to become more efficient in production. The human factor is the most important one in production, and if we see to it that the children of this country have a reasonable opportunity of being properly fed, housed and maintained, I think we have the surest guarantee for future efficiency.

  1943
  A week ago this House was discussing the problem of education, and I think it was the President of the Board of Education who pointed out that, at present, children living in one county are at a disadvantage as compared with children living in another so far as educational facilities are concerned, because one county is poorer than the other and a penny rate produces so small a sum that certain counties are unable, owing to the expense involved, to provide the facilities that are provided for children in other counties. That is exactly the position of many children in present conditions, without family allowances.
  I do not think any advocate of family allowances would make extravagant claims on their behalf. We have never said that they will solve the whole problem of poverty; but we say that the State, through family allowances, would be providing the parents with the material resources to enable every child to have a decent start in life. We do not claim that this will bring absolute equality of opportunity. No two homes are alike. Some mothers look after their children better than others do. But we say it is the duty of the State to see that every parent is provided with the opportunity to give every child that to which the child is entitled. I do not think that in so doing you would undermine the character of either the parent or the child. What destroys character is for men and women never to have had a decent chance in the early part of their lives to be brought up as self-respecting citizens, owing to lack of nutrition, bad housing, and matters of that kind.
  I view family allowances, and the expense involved, as a more intelligent use of a portion of the national income. If it is to come out of the existing national income, it will simply be a transference of expenditure from things where it is less necessary to things where it is more necessary. Individuals in the State are spending,
  1944
  even in war-time, a considerable sum on personal needs, and even on personal luxuries. It is better that less should be spent on drink and tobacco and personal luxuries, and more on family allowances. To the extent that children are receiving adequate nurture in their early years, family allowances will not add to the demands on the nation's resources; to the extent that some children are going short of what they need for a decent life, it will make a demand. But I submit that it is, on humanitarian grounds and also on grounds of wise and far-seeing statesmanship, right that money for this purpose should be provided.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  "That this House, having regard to the supreme importance of further safeguarding the health and well-being of the rising generation, commends for the immediate consideration of the Government the institution of a national scheme of allowances for dependent children as an important contribution to this vital object."

  PUBLIC PETITIONS.
  Ordered,
  "That Sir Alexander Russell and Sir Richard Wells be members of the Committee of Public Petitions."—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]

  PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
  Ordered,
  "That Mr. Ness Edwards be a member of the Committee of Public Accounts."—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

BRITISH ARMY.
  PUNISHMENTS.
  PUNISHMENTS.
  ASSISTANT INSTRUCTORS (RANK).
  ASSISTANT INSTRUCTORS (RANK).
  SPECIAL SERVICE TROOPS.
  SPECIAL SERVICE TROOPS.
  CLOTHES RATIONING.
  CLOTHES RATIONING.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
  BOMBED AREAS (STORED GOODS).
  BOMBED AREAS (STORED GOODS).
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  BILLETING.
  BILLETING.
  BALLOON BARRAGE (LORRIES)
  BALLOON BARRAGE (LORRIES)
  ARMED FORCES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
  ARMED FORCES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  CANCER AND DIABETES (STATISTICS).
  CANCER AND DIABETES (STATISTICS).
  MILITARY SERVICE (SCHOOL MAINTENANCE STAFFS).
  MILITARY SERVICE (SCHOOL MAINTENANCE STAFFS).
  TRANSPORT SERVICES (LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  TRANSPORT SERVICES (LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
Preamble
The House met, the LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
BILSTON CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2ª, and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

THE OPERATIONS IN LIBYA.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, may I ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the position in Libya?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, the following communication has been received from General Auchinleck with regard to recent events in Libya. It is inevitably of a preliminary character, but I feel sure that the House will wish to receive such information as is available at the earliest possible moment. General Auchinleck says:
"An enemy attack during the last few days of May was expected and preparations had been made accordingly. The Eighth Army, on positions stretching from Gazala southwards to Bir Hacheim, was awaiting this attack. The Royal Air Force began counter-offensive action about a week beforehand. The enemy's first attempt to encircle Bir Hacheim and our forward troops was met by our armoured forces in the Knightsbridge-El Adem area. Most bitter fighting ensued in which the enemy was constantly attacked by our armoured and air forces. At first things appeared to be going well. The enemy, in spite of a gap he had forced in our minefield, was having difficulties with his supplies, and all our efforts, including intense air attack, were devoted to increasing his embarrassment. This was probably a crucial moment in the battle. The enemy Was exhausted and had literally fought himself to a standstill. Had we been able to take advantage of the enemy's condition we might have turned the scale. In point of fact, however, we were equally exhausted and this was impossible.
"On the 3rd June, the enemy succeeded in overrunning the 150th brigade and in establishing for himself a forward base in our minefield area. In an attempt to restore the position and to drive him out General Ritchie counter-attacked on the 4th June. On the information available at the time the chances of success in this attempt seemed good, and it was preceded by adequate and careful reconnaissance. But it is now clear that it was in fact premature. The enemy put in a fierce counter-stroke in the face of which we were forced to withdraw, with considerable losses. The enemy then concentrated his
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attention on Bir Hacheim, which was garrisoned by the Free French and had already been subjected to heavy pressure for a period of nine days. Every effort was made to relieve the pressure on this defended locality by the employment of mobile troops. Intense air support was provided by the Royal Air Force. In the event, however, General Ritchie decided that the risk of maintaining this isolated garrison was too great and he accordingly decided to withdraw it on the 10th June. The Free Frenchmen defended Bir Hacheim with the utmost tenacity and endurance; their efforts served to delay the enemy and to contain considerable enemy forces.
"With the fall of Bir Hacheim, these enemy forces were released, and the enemy pressed his attack in the Knightbridge to El Adem area. Heavy fighting ensued and, although our troops and air forces fought with the greatest skill, three days later we were forced to abandon some positions at Knights-bridge, which opened the way for the enemy to break through to the coast and to try to cut off the 1st South African and 50th Divisions in their position south of Gazala. General Ritchie decided rightly to withdraw these two Divisions—an operation which was carried out with skill, and was very largely successful. Under cover of our armoured forces, which held off the enemy Panzer Divisions, and under the covering protection which the Royal Air Force provided (in spite of the fact that they were at the same time engaged in protecting a convoy to Malta), both these Divisions succeeded in joining General Ritchie to the east of Tobruk.
"The enemy then pressed his attack in the El Adem area. A fierce battle ensued in which he succeeded in establishing himself east of the El Adem defended local area at Sidi Rezegh. For four days the enemy was held in the air and on land until eventually on the 17th General Ritchie decided to withdraw to the El Adem-El Duda-Sidi Rezegh area under the effective cover of our air forces, and concentrated his main forces towards the frontier, leaving what was considered to be an adequate garrison in Tobruk. On the morning of the 20th June the enemy attacked Tobruk from the south-east and succeeded in penetrating the perimeter and positions of that portion of the Tobruk area, east of the Tobruk-El Adem road. The garrison is still fighting hard and a gallant attempt to save what appears to be an impossible situation is being made. But the fall of Tobruk is imminent, if it has not already fallen.
"The battle is not yet over. Our Air Forces are still actively offensive and still maintaining the moral superiority they have gained over the enemy. The Eighth Army is still in the field and has already received, and is still receiving, reinforcements."
This is the end of General Auchinleck's statement. Since then, as the House will be aware, we have received definite news of the fall of Tobruk. The attack on Tobruk commenced during the morning of 20th June. A heavy air bombardment was followed by an infantry attack, which succeeded in making an initial breach in

469
the south-east face of the perimeter. Enemy tanks and lorried infantry passed through this gap and were brought to battle inside the perimeter during the afternoon. We lost very heavily in tanks and as a result the situation deteriorated rapidly. During the night the mobile portion of the garrison began to fight its way out. We have as yet no information as to whether any part of the garrison has been able to escape capture. There are in the garrison troops from this country, from India, and from South Africa. We deplore the loss of all these gallant troops. I am sure this House will join me in expressing our sympathy with Field-Marshal Smuts in the loss which he and the people of South Africa have sustained in the capture of forces which have played such a distinguished part in the campaign.
The position is difficult, but the fight for Libya continues. We still have strong forces in the field. Substantial reinforcements, both land and air, which have already been dispatched, are arriving, while others are on their way. Your Lordships may be assured that every possible step is being taken to stabilize the position. Any further advance by the enemy, who has also had heavy losses, will be steadily opposed by our ground and air forces. It is a situation that calls for the greatest courage and devotion from our soldiers and airmen, and for steadfastness and resolution among our people. We are sure that these qualities will be forthcoming.
It is not possible for me at present to give any further information on these events. It is clear that we have suffered an undeniable reverse, that we have sustained grievous loss of men, material, and territory. To attempt to ignore this would be foolish. I have no doubt that the House will wish to discuss these matters as early as possible, and the Government will welcome such a discussion as soon as the necessary information is available. At the moment I am quite sure it would be premature. The battle is still raging, the news reaching us is scanty. It would not be possible for me to add anything material to what I have already told your Lordships. In the meantime noble Lords will remember those very famous, even hackneyed, lines of Horace—"Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem." I would commend them to-day to noble Lords.
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They are good advice to us all in times like these, to noble Lords, to the Press, to the people of this country, above all to the Government themselves. We have need to show to the highest degree those great qualities of wisdom and restraint for which this country has always been famous. The British Armies in Egypt have a hard fight before them. The time for a full discussion will come, and will come soon. To-day it is for us to show them that we are strong and united behind them, trusting firmly, in their courage and in the justice of our cause. General Smuts, in his inspiring message to the South African people which noble Lords may have read in the Press this morning, has said: "South Africa can take it, and South Africa will seek retribution." It is in that spirit that we, too, shall face the future.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, it is undeniable that our arms have suffered a grievous reverse. I am sure that the resolution and endurance of our people are not in question. I am sure also that we are willing to exercise wisdom and restraint; but I am not satisfied that the exercise of wisdom involves the postponement of the discussion of these matters for an indefinite period, or that restraint in recognizing our defects is wisdom. Therefore I am not disposed to accept the exhortation of the noble Viscount to the effect that a debate will be desirable "as soon as information is available," or words to that effect, and that until that time it will be "premature." That might mean postponing discussion of these matters for weeks. I am glad that the noble Viscount indicates dissent. I was anxious to evoke such dissent. I think, myself, that a frank discussion of these matters—and there are many which are obvious—should not be postponed until whatever "information" the noble Viscount may include in the term has been received. There are certain grievous defects which are obvious to the people, not to the soldiers only, and this country and this House have never been afraid of facing up to our defects—not for the sake of finding fault, but for the sake of getting them remedied. That is what we all want to do as soon as possible. Any discussion which I initiate or take part in will be with that sole purpose and for no other purpose. I hope the noble Viscount will accept what I say fully on that point. But I do feel that the indefiniteness of the recommendation

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of the noble Viscount, as to delaying the discussion, is not satisfactory. It should be arranged to-day that a discussion on these matters should take place as soon as possible and by "as soon as possible" I mean not later than during next week.
May I make one other exhortation? I am very sorry that my noble friend Lord Winster has withdrawn his Motion on shipping losses which was down for tomorrow, not that I do not think the Government had not good reasons for preferring that it should be debated in secret, but it was my desire to raise a general discussion as to the scope of Secret Sessions and their utility or otherwise. I only want to say in advance that I emphatically say that the discussion of this Libyan matter should be in public. I am sure there is not one of us who would say or suggest anything that would be helpful to our enemies. We want to help ourselves and the noble fellows who are fighting our cause, and to see that they are well equipped and well directed. We do no harm in facing up to the ugly facts. Therefore I hope the noble Viscount will say at once—I gather he will—that he will be willing to have a public open discussion on the matter. I know, of course, that these things cannot be arranged across the Table in a minute, but I hope he will be able to arrange for a day next week for a full and frank discussion of the whole matter.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches, I desire to associate myself with what has been said by the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the House said that when the time came, when information is available, a debate should be held. That was very indefinite language. Clearly a debate cannot be held to-day, but neither ought it to be held after a month's delay, and I trust the noble Viscount the Leader of the House will be able to suggest some definite period. When that time comes, I earnestly hope that the Government will be able to say something on one specific point which arouses widespread anxiety and regret. The reports that have come from the battlefield state that the British armament was inferior to the German and that, apart from the General Grant tanks that come from America, our tanks were outgunned by those of the enemy. I think the country
472
has a right to know whether that is so or not, and if it is what is the reason why, after nearly three years of war, our armament should still be inferior.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Addison, and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, have expressed the need for an early debate. I can assure them that when I said a debate would be premature to-day, I did not intend to suggest that there should be an indefinite delay. I am quite prepared to agree to the proposal of Lord Addison, that it should take place in the next series of sittings, and that it should take place in public. All I meant to point out—and it is an important thing to say—was that if we were to have a debate absolutely immediately, I would not have any additional information to give to the House. There might be a number of points raised to which inadequate answers might have had to be given. That would have been satisfactory neither to this House nor to the country. But next week I shall be very pleased to deal with any matters raised.

WAR DAMAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª; and to be printed.
POST OFFICE AND TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; and read 1ª.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 3) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; and read 1ª.

PENSIONS (MERCANTILE MARINE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Clifden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Additional injuries and damage in respect of which compensation may be paid.
(2) The injuries falling within this section are physical injuries sustained on or after the third day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, at sea or in any other tidal water or in the waters of any harbour, and attributable to—

(a) the taking of measures with a view to avoiding, preventing or hindering enemy action against ships, or as a precaution in anticipation of enemy action against ships, or for rescue or salvage purposes in consequence of enemy action against ships; or

(b) the absence, by reason of circumstances connected with any war in which His Majesty may be engaged, of any aid to navigation for ships, or of any warning of danger to ships, being an aid or warning which would be normal in time of peace; or

(c) the carriage, by reason of circumstances connected with any such war as aforesaid, of any cargo in a manner which would be abnormal in time of peace and involves danger to the ship in which the cargo is carried or to her crew,

and the loss and damage falling within this section is loss and damage sustained and attributable as aforesaid:
Provided that in relation to injuries, loss or damage sustained in the waters of a harbour the measures specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection do not include the prohibition or restriction of lights other than navigational lights.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: There are two Amendments on the Paper to Clause 1. The first Amendment is a matter of printing, and the words would be inserted automatically if the second Amendment ware passed. I think, therefore, it would be for the convenience of your Lordships if we were to disregard that Amendment now and go on with the second Amendment on page 2, line 13.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY had given Notice of an Amendment in subsection (2), after "The inquiries falling within this section are," to insert "(i)," in order to insert after paragraph (c), "(ii) tuberculosis due to war conditions." The noble Earl said: Your Lordships may remember that on the Second Reading of this Bill, last Tuesday, I urged that merchant seamen suffering from tuberculosis as a result of war measures should come within the provisions of the Bill. The Amendments
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standing in my name are designed to ensure this being done, provided, of course, that it may be proved that the illness is the result of war conditions. In the remarks I am about to make I shall have to repeat myself a good deal, but I hope the Committee will bear with me, because the remarks will be, I think, all germane to my subject. This very welcome Bill, we were told only a week ago to-day on the occasion of the Second Reading, aims at extending the benefits of the principal Act to cases of injury where a mariner is injured through the normal risk of seafaring life being substantially increased by war measures. We are told that the provisions of this Bill are welcomed by all the interested parties, officers, seamen and owners. Of course they are, because they are excellent provisions, and the people affected can look ahead with renewed confidence to the future, but, when looking ahead to the future, those who have already fallen out and dropped astern are rather inclined to be forgotten, and it is for a section of these unfortunates that I do beg the support of your Lordships.
Before I go any further I wish to make it quite clear that I am not alluding to any abnormal circumstances, such as being adrift in a boat or cast away on a raft or anything of that sort. That kind of episode is, I understand, covered by the Bill, and we have the assurance of the Minister of Pensions in another place that that is the case. My remarks will be concerned with the difference between ordinary life at sea under peace conditions and the conditions which have to be followed under war measures. At all times at sea, under modern conditions, seamen are predisposed to tuberculosis. This is agreed upon by all medical men who are interested in seamen and who work among them. It is true of the Royal Navy, where strict and periodical medical examinations take place, where the greatest trouble is taken about the ventilation of the ship, where everything is done to try and eliminate this foul disease, and where the health of all is looked after by the devoted care of medical officers. If that is true of the Royal Navy in regard to tuberculosis, how much more likely is it to be true of the Mercantile Marine, where no medical examination is enacted by law, although certain medical examinations do take place owing to the companies wishing to cover

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themselves in various ways by insurance. One shilling a head is paid as a fee for these examinations, and I submit that it might be rather perfunctory at that price. In any case, in a great number of instances, no examination takes place at all.
In volume 2 of the Report of the National Labour Office regarding insurance and health published in 1934, many reasons are given to account for this predisposition of seamen to tuberculosis, both in their living and working conditions. Special stress is laid upon the fumes and gases given off by different sorts of cargoes, upon, the noxious dust that is generated, and upon other causes of this kind which have to be encountered in small and ill-ventilated compartments. A well-known Harley Street surgeon, Mr. Ernest Griffiths, who as a young man went to sea to study these conditions and now works amongst sailors and is on the staff of the Seamen's Hospital Society, sent me a memorandum that he had written for another purpose upon this very subject. He gives as reasons the gross overcrowding of seamen in their ships according to all shore standards, and the fact that conditions of weather at sea very often prevent any ventilation of the living space for days together. He also points out that during a voyage a seaman is subjected to periods of strain and fatigue which are quite different from those experienced by workmen ashore. The seaman cannot get a day a week off, and although nominally he may have to work only a specific number of hours in the twenty-four, in the case of bad weather or in an emergency he may have to work long hours together under considerable physical strain. Moreover, these men have not the opportunity of recuperating during the usual hours of sleep.
These conditions, lack of sleep, extreme fatigue and exposure to noxious dust and vapours, render them liable to infection, and render them particularly liable to become victims of tuberculosis. He goes on to add to this the fact that some 25 per cent. of seamen serving in British ships are Lascars, who are peculiarly prone to this particular disease. It will be seen, therefore, that there is no lack of tuberculosis carriers at sea. Seamen living and working on shore do so under
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far healthier conditions than those they can ever hope to experience between decks at sea. British seamen who become infected are very loath to report themselves sick, either because they do not perhaps realize they have the disease or because they fear loss of occupation and all that that entails. That this "hanging back" does exist is proved by the fact that out of 300 cases admitted into St. George's Sanatorium for Sailors 268, that is 89 per cent., were in the advanced stages of the disease, and of these men 51 died in the sanatorium. But of course in peace-time there are many ameliorations of the life of a sailor. Your Lordships have experienced those delights of days at sea with bright sunshine and just enough wind to put white horses on the tops of the waves, and delightful nights when the ship is lighted up with hatches open to draw in the salt air, nights when to be on deck are far more attractive than to be in one's bunk. The memory of such days and nights makes people long to go back to sea.
Every profession has risks which those who join it must be prepared to face. It is only when one particular risk becomes unduly great that workmen's compensation comes in order to ensure that those who suffer are adequately compensated. Tuberculosis is not in a schedule under the Act for seamen and they cannot be benefited by that Act if they suffer from that illness. Directly we come to war conditions everything at sea is altered, and it seems hardly necessary to explain at any length why conditions at sea which expose men to tuberculosis are greatly magnified as a consequence of war measures. At the same time when you have those measures all these ameliorations to which I have referred are wiped out altogether. Voyages are far longer, a fact which increases the periods of risk of infection, should there be one carrier among a ship's company. Devious routes are adopted, and ships penetrate into latitudes which they were never intended to navigate and for which they are neither adapted nor fitted. Moreover, they go there at unusual seasons of the year. The heavier the load the wetter the ship is and the less space there is on the ship's deck for recreation. Ship-loading marks are in abeyance during war-time and turns of duty are far more exacting; the watertight doors and hatches have to be kept closed in order

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to keep the ship watertight, and therefore the ship is not ventilated. Over and above everything else there is the ever-present risk of surprise attack by an unseen enemy. The cumulative effect of all this is still further to reduce the seamen's power of resistance to infection.
The Bill now before your Lordships' House— make no apology for quoting the words used by the noble Viscount, Lord Clifden, in moving the Second Reading—is to provide for the case "where a mariner is injured through a normal risk of seafaring life being substantially increased by war measures." I suggest that in war-time there should be no doubt among seamen that they will benefit from the provisions of the Bill should they be so unfortunate as to fall victims to this terrible disease. That is in grave doubt at present. On the previous occasion when I addressed your Lordships on this matter I read an answer from the Ministry of Pensions to an applicant who based his appeal for a pension upon the ground that his disease had been brought about by war conditions. That answer, which refused the pension, stated that the claim could not be considered as the
"disability had not been brought about by enemy action, but by war conditions only."
That answer was dated June 3.
I now beg your Lordships' permission to quote some further correspondence on the subject, the applicant also being a patient at the King George's Sanatorium for Sailors. He was until recently a quartermaster in a well-known liner the owners of which have an excellent name for the treatment of their sailors. He stated that he had been at sea for nineteen years, during which he had had no illness until he was found to have tuberculosis when he had served twenty months under war conditions. He gave as his reasons for applying that he had been one of six quartermasters living, eating and sleeping in one cabin situated close to a galley or kitchen. In that cabin there were no fans for hot weather nor any provision for heating in cold weather. In consequence, in the tropics the temperature rose to 120 degrees, and in cold weather the condensation moisture formed into icicles. When the men complained of these conditions they were allowed to move into the troop quarters, but when the troops were re-embarked they were sent back to the original cabin. Finally, the captain decided that the cabin was unfit for sleeping
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in and it was then used for messing only.
This man went on to state that he had been in another ship of the same line during December, 1939, and January, 1940, during which time he had been with five others in a cabin. One of those men, who had a very bad cough, suddenly went sick and died of pulmonary tuberculosis shortly afterwards. These statements can of course be easily verified. To that appeal the writer received the answer:
"As your injury was not in any way due to enemy action it is regretted that you are ineligible for a grant of compensation."
Reading in the Press a summary of the Bill now before your Lordships he applied again and he got a better answer this time. He was told:
"The Bill to which you refer is under consideration in Parliament and should it come into force it will be open to you to make application for a review of your case."
That answer was dated April 27 and presumably at that time the Ministry intended that such cases should come within its provisions, for nobody would willingly raise ill-founded hopes in such cases. But what spark of hope there may have been seems to have been entirely extinguished, for three replies to three different claimants, dated May 30, June 3 and June 5, all explain that as the disability was not due to a "war injury," which means a "physical injury caused by the enemy or in repelling imagined attack by the enemy," the claimants were not eligible.
This Bill was read the third time in another place on June 2, so surely you may take it that the answers to which I have alluded would never have been sent if it was intended that such sufferers as the petitioners should benefit by its provisions. I know some of the official reasons that are going to be urged against this Amendment. I have already been told that to insert it would open the door to other claims by those who considered their health might be adversely affected by war conditions. I was told that it was a question of principle and that if you accepted the principle you could not go into questions of degree. That of course is a fallacy, for it is done under the Workmen's Compensation Act. If any other body can show equally powerful claim as those of the seamen they would in my view deserve every consideration, but I am

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asking only for compensation for seamen who have been allowed to fall between two stools. This fact is proved by these figures. There are at present in the King George's Sanatorium 36 Royal Naval patients and 31 are drawing pensions, not for war injuries but for tuberculosis. There are fourteen merchant seamen patients and none has a pension. There have been only three refusals to naval men but ten to merchant seamen.
These men should either be covered by the Workmen's Compensation Act or by this Bill, and I suggest that this Bill is the appropriate measure. The Workmen's Compensation Act and the Employers Liability Act are part of our permanent legislation, whereas this Bill is war legislation designed to meet the case of seamen in circumstances "where the normal risk of seafaring life is substantially increased by war measures." Permanent legislation should aim at stopping the incidence of tuberculosis among merchant seamen. Safeguards of course would have to be provided against exploitation of the measure, but they have been devised under the Workmen's Compensation Act and they could certainly be framed under this Bill. These men are, in fact if not in theory, servants of the State. It is the State that controls the shipping industry, that orders when, how and where ships are to proceed, and the State cannot get out of its responsibilities to the men who man these ships by trying to shoulder them on to employers or anybody else.
I suggest to your Lordships, with all deference, that this is essentially a cause that should appeal to your Lordships. It is that of a neglected minority who have no influence, no means of bringing their case forward, as many organizations have. It is not championed by powerful organizations and the men are not in a position to do anything for themselves. Not can they get their case taken up and eloquently put forward in the Press and on the public platform. It is the case of a few unhappy seamen, shipmates of the men to whom we owe so much. Think, my Lords, of these men, the wrecks of strong sailors, lying on their beds from which many of them will not rise again and occupying their time with little bits of work in wool and that sort of thing. What must their thoughts be as they hear refusals to petitions come in one after another. I am not asking for
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charity, pity or favours. I am asking for an act of justice to these unfortunate men who have most truly fallen in the national cause. I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 13, at end insert ("(ii) tuberculosis due to war conditions,").—(The Earl of Cork and Orrery.)
LORD STRABOLGI: Would the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack allow me to put forward a certain matter before he makes his statement? I can assure him that I shall do so in a very few words.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): Certainly.
LORD STRABOLGI: Since the debate last week I have, with certain of my noble friends, been in touch with the National Union of Seamen on this question. As my noble friend the Minister of War Transport, Lord Leathers, knows, they were called in, and quite rightly called in, as one of the parties on the Joint Maritime Board when the Bill was in preparation. But this question was not then raised. In view of the arguments which have been put forward the National Union of Seamen, speaking for 42,000 seamen, has asked me and such of my noble friends as have interested themselves in this matter, to suggest to your Lordships and to any other noble Lords whom we can influence, that the noble and gallant Earl's proposal should be supported. The Amendment as now drawn has the full support of the National Union.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I do not know quite what is the right order in which it is wished that we should address the Committee. The noble and learned Lord Chancellor has been good enough to tell me that he takes a particular view on the construction of this Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am going to explain it when I have the opportunity.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: Then I will not hold up the noble and learned Viscount, but I wish him to know that this is a matter of construction on which opinions will greatly differ.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that it may now be convenient if I say something. I only wish to serve the interests

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of your Lordships. I have no personal opinion except that, like all the rest of us, I am anxious for the right thing to be done. I feel great admiration, if I may say so with respect to him, for what the noble and gallant Earl has so eloquently stated. If indeed the results followed which he sincerely believes do follow, I should not be prepared to defend the Bill as it stands. I think, however, with great respect to him, and I must add to those who must naturally have been much moved by his speech, I must say that there is a great deal of misapprehension here. When we come to pass Acts of Parliament we must—and we will, I know—be careful to examine what in fact is proposed. We shall get our whole Statute Book into a state of confusion, if we merely give way to what are very noble and generous and reasonable appeals.
May I, with respect to the noble and gallant Earl, correct one matter at once? It struck me in the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill that it was curious that he should quote in support of his case letters which have been written in the summer from the Ministry of Pensions as though they demonstrated what the effect of this Bill was. It will be obvious I think to every member of the House, if he thinks for a moment, that if in the course of the early part of this year an appeal was made for a pension on the part of a mariner, that matter had to be decided as the law then stood and not by reference to the new Bill which we are now considering. The answer which my noble friend read the other day and other answers which he has read to us now, are obviously so to be understood. I have before me the record of the letter which he read to us on the Second Reading, and it contains this passage:
"From the details given in your letter it does not appear that the disability has been brought about by enemy action, but by war conditions only."
The existing law, the Act we are trying to amend, made exactly that distinction, and that was why the claimant in respect of whom this letter was written, did not succeed in his application.
I have before me here the Pensions (Navy, Army, Air Force and Mercantile Marine) Act, 1939. It contains a definition of war injuries. It says—"'war injuries' means physical injuries"
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caused by one or other of several things which are mentioned. It is quite different from the present Bill, and the only causes which would have attracted a pension under the existing law are, as this letter stated, disabilities brought about by enemy action. If the Committee will have the patience to allow me to read the provisions, they will see it at once. As the law now stands, the injury has got to be caused by:
"(i) the discharge of any missile (including liquids and gas)."
That obviously refers to the effects of artillery or bombing or that sort of thing.
"(ii) the use of any weapons, explosive or other noxious thing."
That is obviously in connexion with preparation for fighting or with fighting itself.
"(iii) the doing of any other injurious act; either by the enemy or in combating the enemy or in repelling an imagined attack by the enemy."
That is something which is limited to something brought about by military action.
A further proviso is that "war injuries" means physical injuries—
"caused by the impact on any person or property of any enemy aircraft, or any aircraft belonging to, or held by any person on behalf of or for the benefit of, His Majesty or any Allied Power, or any part of or anything dropped from any such aircraft."
The whole point is to understand that as the law stands at the present time the Statute Book as it is to-day does not contain any provision providing for disability caused by war conditions except in the case where the disability has been brought about by enemy action. And that was a very narrow thing. The result was that numbers of unfortunate people, many of them I dare say who might well be thought—and I certainly do think—are well entitled to be included in the wartime pensions scheme, did not get their pensions because they could not prove that their disabilities arose from the effect of injury brought about by enemy action. What is so strange to me, if I may say so with all respect to the noble and gallant Earl, is that he should quote letters which point to that difference as though they were some argument against the present Bill. The present Bill has the express purpose of curing this defect. That is what it is for. The object of it is to substitute for this test, that the injury has been brought about by enemy action, a much wider test, which includes, to take

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the examples which the noble Earl and others gave last time, the case of the man who is injured because he is, let us say, exposed in an open boat to exceptional weather, which brings on his injury, or because he has escaped from a sinking ship, and the case of a man exposed to injury because he is packed up closer than he usually is in his quarters, owing to the crew being increased by the addition of gun-crews and the like. It includes every injury of that sort, and the object of the present Bill is precisely to make that extension.
In its first clause, it provides that certain sections of the existing Act which I have just quoted, and which empower the Minister of Pensions to make schemes for awards in respect of war injuries
"shall, as amended by the subsequent provisions of this Act, apply in relation to injuries falling within this section which are not war injuries."
That is the whole point of it.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: Read on.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Of course I am going to read on.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: The point is the words "as defined by Section ten."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am quite prepared to read on, but I am pointing out, not, I think, irrelevantly, or fraudulently, or scandalously, that there is a contrast between the existing law, which limits these injuries to war injuries, and the present Bill, which says that the sections are to apply to cases "which are not war injuries as defined by Section ten of the principal Act." If I have misled anyone by not reading the words "as defined by Section ten," I apologize; but I read the words only a few minutes ago. Your Lordships will see, therefore, that the whole object of this Bill is to do the class of thing which my noble and gallant friend imagines is left undone, and, because he imagines that it is left undone, he has read these letters to us. I can assure him that, subject to one point with which I shall deal—namely, the question of whether tuberculosis should be classed as a physical injury, which is quite a serious point—everything which he imagines is not dealt with by the new Bill is, in fact, dealt with by the new Bill, because the object of the Bill is to bring these matters in.
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Let me assume for the moment—and I am going, I hope, to establish it—that tuberculosis is not excluded from the Bill. What sort of cases would be covered? I will take the very ones which were mentioned last time. It was pointed out last time, and I quite accept it, that, owing to the conditions under which mariners live at sea, they run very special risks, which may bring upon them tuberculosis. I accept that entirely; I believe that to be a well-established fact, both as regards the Royal Navy and the Mercantile Marine. Under war conditions you may have, as was pointed out last time, the contraction of tuberculosis due to interference with the normal circulation of air in the ship. I think that was one matter which the noble Earl was good enough to point out to us. I quite accept that: I have made inquiries, and it is certainly true. For example, the portholes may be closed and shaded to prevent any possibility of light showing out, while in the ordinary way those portholes would be left open. Fo'c'sle doors may be closed and even curtained, which in peace-time would not ordinarily be closed. Ventilator fittings provided specially in order to keep a current of air going in the ship may have to be made light-tight—I think that that is the correct expression—because many ventilators, when open, would allow light to shine through. All those things may very seriously increase the risks to which the mariner, whether in the Royal Navy or the Mercantile Marine, is subject; and the whole object of this new Bill—and this is what I want my noble friend to appreciate—is not to exclude those cases but to bring them in.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: I have sat quiet for a long time, but I must interrupt the noble and learned Viscount. My cases were cited purely as examples of why sailors should be included in this Bill, which I quite understand is intended to widen the field to men who will benefit if they suffer from war conditions. My point is that the Bill does intend to widen the field, and that these men should not be left out of it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that my noble friend and I agree on the substance of the matter. It has nothing to do with the question that the Minister of Pensions at an earlier date, and with reference to another Bill, wrote letters about whether a man was in or out of

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the benefit provisions; the object of the present Bill is to bring these men in. I am merely pointing out to my noble friend that there is not so much difference between him and the Government as he seems to think. He quite rightly presses this matter, because it is very important, but there is not a great deal of difference between us.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: The last instance which I quoted was June 5.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that we must be allowed to go on. I will take another example which the noble Earl gave. He pointed out—and I think that he was quite right—that the accommodation may be more confined, because extra men are being carried in what are very confined quarters. I do not mean that the sailors do not get their statutory cubic content of air, but there may be more people crowded into the place where they sleep than there would be in peacetime, very often, I think, because gun-crews are added. That is a plain case for the application of this Bill, and that is the very object of the Bill. In the same way, there may be mariners who are exposed to this extra risk because they have to take to the boats and do their best to get away; and often, poor fellows, they suffer the most fearful exposure; and nothing is more likely to bring on tuberculosis in many cases than that. I would only ask my noble friend to believe me when I say that the object of this Bill is to cover those cases.
I should like to read him the relevant words, begging my noble and learned friend below the gangway (Viscount Maugham) to believe me when I say that I have no intention of omitting anything whatever. There is a provision in the Bill that the previous Act is to be extended to cover injuries which are attributable to
"(a) the taking of measures with a view to avoiding, preventing or hindering enemy action against ships, or as a precaution in anticipation of enemy action against ships, or for rescue or salvage purposes in consequence of enemy action against ships."
That is obviously dealing with the case of sailors who, for one reason or another, are exposed to special risks and dangers because, for example, they take to the boats, or because, owing to a change of course in an effort to avoid the enemy, the ship comes to grief in another way.
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Then we have:
"(b) the absence, by reason of circumstances connected with any war in which His Majesty may be engaged, of any aid to navigation for ships, or of any warning of danger to ships, being an aid or warning which would be normal in time of peace."
That refers primarily, no doubt, to sailing without lights. Then we have:
"(c) the carriage, by reason of circumstances connected with any such war as aforesaid, of any cargo in a manner which would be abnormal in time of peace and involves danger to the ship in which the cargo is carried or to her crew."
That refers to unusual stowage, to the occupation of space which would otherwise be free air, and things of that kind. Having myself looked into this matter closely, and having had the advantage of discussions with the Ministry of Pensions and their advisers, I have come quite clearly to the view—and I hope that the Committee will be good enough to give it some attention—that the provisions in this Bill are designed to meet the very anxiety which my noble and gallant friend so naturally, so powerfully and so eloquently expressed.
There is one further point which is a point of difficulty. Certainly I am not going to deal with it as if it were not a point of difficulty. It is this: is tuberculosis a physical injury? I know there may be two views about that. In the first place, it is so regarded by the doctors of the Ministry of Pensions. I do not myself find any very great difficulty in believing that that is right, for I know that in another connexion it has been decided that various things like anthrax germs, or like some other things, are in the nature of an injury. But be that as it may, I am here to say perfectly definitely and explicitly, not on behalf of one Ministry, but as the definite, fixed public view of the Ministry of Pensions, that tuberculosis is under this Act treated as a physical injury. I do not think that the House is likely to set aside that declaration lightly. We must distinguish as to whether we are really trying to secure—as of course we are—proper protection for these poor men, or engaged in logic chopping about words. And when I say, as I do here as Lord Chancellor and as a member of the Government, that the Ministry of Pensions if this Bill is passed treat tuberculosis as included in physical injury, I apprehend that there are a good many

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members of your Lordships' House who will think that that is more important than logic chopping about the interpretation of a particular word.
There is this very great difference from the Workmen s Compensation Act, that under that Act not only must there be personal injury but personal injury by action. There is no such limiting condition here. It is quite enough to say that there is a physical injury.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: I think that does not apply in industrial diseases.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No, that is so. I speak with very much respect for those with technical knowledge on this subject, but I do not imagine it will be regarded by the medical faculty as a very astonishing proposition, having regard to the fact that most distinguished doctors have advised me so from the Ministry of Pensions within the last twenty-four hours. But in any case the important thing is, are we going to protect these men? That is what matters to the noble and gallant Earl, and what I have said, I think, shows perfectly plainly that as far as there was any anxiety that tuberculosis would be excluded from any possible application of the Bill, that is quite unfounded. Then, it may be said—and it is very attractive to a certain sort of mind on this subject—"Well if you are so sure about that, why not put it in the Bill?"
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I recognize the approval of many voices, some of whom may have heard that argument in another place. Well, I will venture humbly to suggest some rather good reasons. I do not know whether the Committee has really looked closely at this Amendment, but if the Committee decides to put it in the Bill as a separate paragraph undoubtedly you are doing this—I do not think you mean to do it—you are excluding other cases which may be on the border line, for the fact that the House of Lords chooses to say that tuberculosis has nothing to do with a physical injury, will certainly have that effect in the case of other complaints. I will give an example. It was given me by the doctors of the Ministry of Pensions who, believe me, are not trying to exclude these decent people from pensions at all; they are merely trying to provide a workmanlike measure. Take the case of organic
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heart disease, brought about by the special circumstances of war conditions. I will venture to make this prophecy. If you put tuberculosis as a separate category in this Bill, and thereby assert that for the purposes of this Bill it is not regarded as a physical injury, you are going to put into very great jeopardy the claims of some other affections which it is the intention of the Ministry of Pensions, if they are permitted to do so, to include within the Bill.
This is the second thing: it does not affect this House, but so many of us used to be members of the other, that I may refer to it in this connexion. In order that this Bill may be carried through the House of Commons there had to be a Money Resolution. When the Money Resolution was carried, it was carried on the basis as I understand from the Ministry of Pensions, that tuberculosis was not excluded in the Bill; it was included. But, of course, if the House of Lords puts this in, as I think quite unnecessarily in view of what I have said, then unquestionably it will have the result of raising the question, when the Bill returns to the other House, whether there should be a further Money Resolution—as to whether Parliament really has provided for this.
I really would ask here for a broad and sensible treatment of the matter. I do not complain of anybody who may take the view that "Well, it is rather difficult to be quite sure whether 'physical injuries' might include tuberculosis." That depends upon physiological analyses and understandings which are certainly too deep for me. But I do know this, that that is the way in which this Bill is going to be dealt with, that is the way in which the Ministry of Pensions are going to administer it, and I have taken the opportunity of fortifying myself by getting the most express authority to say so. In those circumstances, with very great respect to the noble and gallant Earl, whose efforts in this matter I most unfeignedly admire, I really think as a fair man he will agree that what I have said on behalf of the Ministry does really meet the situation. I do claim that, and I cannot understand how anybody approaching the thing afresh should not think so.
He said—it was natural he should—that he was here speaking for people who are undefended. That is not quite so. As

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a matter of fact, this thing has been discussed most minutely, as Lord Strabolgi said just now, with the Maritime Board and with the different parties to it. And it is not the case—I speak with great respect of my noble friend who spoke last—that the trade union is dissatisfied about it. They have not, as far as I know, ever come to the Ministry about the point specifically, and I am perfectly confident that what they want is what every reasonable man wants: they want to be perfectly sure that tuberculosis is not excluded from the operation of the Bill. I have said so, and I think that, whatever else may happen, the result which my noble friend desires is achieved.
Summing up, it stands like this. We have at present an Act of Parliament which is much too narrow in its terms. It does not give these mariners any compensation in the form of a pension unless it can be shown that the particular thing which happens to them is due to the action of the enemy. The object of this Bill is to widen that and extend it to every other sort of cause which can be said to be due to these war conditions as set out in, the Bill—and I really cannot think of any others. The result will be that these men of whom my noble friend has spoken so feelingly, if they are people who contract tuberculosis owing to those circumstances, will get their pension, and that is what is desired. I would only say in conclusion—I am speaking in the presence of at least one previous Minister of Pensions, and I know that this is a fact—the Ministry of Pensions are not niggardly and technical in dealing with these matters. In the case of a man who comes forward and says, "Here I am with tuberculosis, and I have sustained it in these circumstances, which entitle me to a pension," they do not ask for minute detailed proof. They have got their own doctors, which enables them to find out what is wanted. And if more is wanted, the medical history of nearly everybody in this country is more or less known. It is in that spirit that they determine whether or not they are reasonably satisfied that the claim is made out. I do not believe that those who know the Ministry of Pensions under my honourable friend's jurisdiction or that of his predecessors, feel that the Ministry are trying to cheat or chisel people out of their normal pension rights not at all. And if this Bill is drawn in the proper form it is a pity
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I that we should endeavour, under an appeal which itself is of a most moving-character, to make a change in the Bill which is manifestly not necessary.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I do not give way to anybody in this House in the respect which I feel for the Lord Chancellor, with whom I have to sit with great pleasure both in this House and in the Privy Council, and with whom I have constantly appeared at the Bar. So that I hope he will not think that anything I say is intended to detract in any way from that feeling; but I must say that I am wholly unconvinced by what the Lord Chancellor said to your Lordships. I think his construction of this Bill is wrong. I voice my opinion on that matter, and I am prepared to give my reasons. I hope in doing so it will only be another instance of this, that lawyers, like doctors, sometimes differ. It may be that the noble Viscount is right, but it may also be that I am right, and I shall tell your Lordships why at once. It is a very simple point.
The noble Viscount admits that, under the law as it now stands, tuberculosis is not a war injury. He admits that, and he says, therefore, that until this Bill is passed, the Ministry of Pensions have got no other course than to refuse somebody who is suffering from tuberculosis which is due to war conditions. Very-well. He says that the Bill is designed to put an end to that state of things and, it may be, to certain other disabilities from which members of the Mercantile Marine suffer. I am far from disputing the view that it may be designed for that purpose, but what I do assure your Lord ships is that, in my judgment—and I know in the judgment of others—it does not achieve that result. It fails to do it, and I can tell your Lordships why. The noble Viscount refers to the amendment to "war injuries" falling within Section 10 of the existing Act, and he suggests that this Bill is intended to increase the number of "war injuries" which will be entitled to redress by the Ministry of Pensions. So it is; I do not deny that in the least, but what it does not cover or attempt to cover is any disease due to war conditions, of which tuberculosis may be one. That is my view.
One has only to read subsection (2) of Clause 1. That does not say that all injuries are physical injuries which are of

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the nature of diseases. It does not get anywhere near saying that. It gives three specific cases—(a), (b), (c)—in which "war injuries," as defined by Section 10 of the existing Act, are to be included in this Bill. If your Lordships will bear with me for one moment I shall read the three cases. They refer to injuries which are physical injuries sustained and attributable, after a certain date, to certain circumstances. The first case concerns
"the taking of measures with a view to avoiding, preventing or hindering enemy action against ships, or as a precaution in anticipation of enemy action against ships, or for rescue or salvage purposes in consequence of enemy action against ships."
Can anybody, with reason, suggest that that will include tuberculosis due to the conditions under which a merchant seaman has got to live? The latter have nothing to do with measures attributable to avoiding or hindering enemy action. It may be that the people have never been near an enemy ship. They may have sailed from here to Australia without seeing a ship, or trying to avoid one, for all I know, and the tuberculosis may be due simply to the terrible conditions of overcrowding existing in the forecastle of some merchant ship. That is paragraph (a); it cannot be within that.
Let us look at paragraph (b), which refers to the absence of lights or warning of danger. It is not due to the absence of lights or warning of danger that a man gets tuberculosis. It is due to the fact that he may be for weeks or months, living in a poisonous atmosphere at night and getting very little opportunity of fresh air on deck. It cannot be within (b). Let us look and see if it is within paragraph (c). Paragraph (c) refers to
"the carriage, by reason of circumstances connected with any such war as aforesaid, of any cargo in a manner which would be abnormal in times of peace…"
That has nothing to do with the fact that a merchant seaman is sleeping and living and having his food in a most unhealthy atmosphere owing to overcrowding in times of war and other war conditions. It cannot be within that. It does not matter what the construction of "war injuries" may be. "War injuries," prima facie, does not include tuberculosis, which is not a war injury; but apart from that, subsection (2) of Clause 1 of this Bill is so drawn that "injuries" cannot, because they are injuries
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attributable to three specific cases, possibly include diseases due to the confined atmosphere in which mariners live.
I cannot conceive anybody who takes the trouble to read this with care—as I have done on several occasions—having any doubt about that. I cannot help thinking that my noble friend, for whose judgment I have the greatest respect, has omitted to note that point—that it is not merely a question of what "war injuries" means; it is a question of war injuries attributable to the specific circumstances mentioned in (a), (b) and (c) of subsection (2) of Clause 1. It is that which makes the position such that tuberculosis is not covered. That is the point of law, and there are other lawyers than myself in this House, I cannot help thinking, who take the same view as I do.
There is one other thing I have to say on the law on the subject. I have no doubt that the Ministry of Pensions think, just as the Lord Chancellor has told us, that he himself has given a pledge. I would advise you to consider for a moment the value of a pledge, even coming from the Lord Chancellor, in a case like this. The question is what the law is when this Bill becomes an Act. When this measure comes to be construed in a Court of Law, either the lowest or the highest Court, it will not be admissible to anybody to quote what the Lord Chancellor said on June 23, 1942. He will be stopped. We cannot, as Judges, when we are construing measures, listen to what has taken place in this House or in the other place. We are not allowed to do it. As to the suggestion that we ought to allow this Bill to pass as it is without any clear language to make it certain that a disease due to war conditions may be covered, the result of allowing it to pass in that form would be—it may be at some time such as when for all I know this Government is not in power, and for all I know the noble Viscount will not be on the Woolsack; we cannot tell in these changing circumstances every day—that it would be no good to try and tell people what happened at this debate. I also venture to think, as a lawyer, that it would be a very bad example to let a measure pass without using clear language to express the Government's intention. Why should we not make that perfectly clear? Whether I am right or

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whether the noble Lord is right, make perfectly clear what the measure means.
Then the Lord Chancellor has another point which is one, I agree, that has to be borne in mind. He says that this Amendment is one which may have the effect of excluding some other injury from disease, or something of that sort—some other disease which the Government desire to cover. Well, if they do, let them add to the (a), (b) and (c) in subsection (2) of Clause 1. Let them tell us what it is they desire to cover, and word it so that tuberculosis is covered. But if that is not the case, I confess I am not impressed by the fact that there may be something else on which there may be some doubt thrown, because I am perfectly sure there is doubt thrown on the Bill as it stands. Of that I have not the smallest doubt, and I would add this. Take the case of somebody who by enemy action suffers, say, a lesion of the heart. I am not denying that that may be a physical injury due to a specific act of bombardment or something of the sort. My whole point is that the Bill as it stands does not cover a disease caused by continuous occupation of certain places in a mercantile vessel during war-time. That, as I venture to think, has got to be covered in order that these unfortunate men may know where they are.
I need say nothing more to add to the eloquent words of my noble friend Lord Cork, in supporting this Amendment. Everybody in the House knows—and the Lord Chancellor fully agrees—that these people are entitled to every consideration in such a matter as this. I will only say, on that point, that I think we all know that but for the behaviour of the Merchant Service in this war, we could not have brought it to its present state, and we should be certain to lose it. We cannot get on without these men. If a proportion of them were what is commonly known as yellow, we could not get food and the other things that we do get brought by merchant seamen to this country to help us carry on the war. It is not a case, therefore, for leaving the smallest doubt as to whether the case of people with tuberculosis are covered or not.
There is only one final word I would say and it is this. Even if there were some doubtful obscure disease—I cannot imagine one—due to war conditions which might be excluded by reason of this
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Amendment, it is perfectly trifling compared to the point on which my noble and gallant friend has based this Amendment. You will remember that on the last occasion, on the Second Reading, he made a statement, or quoted from an official report, that of the deaths occurring among men within twelve months of leaving seagoing employment, 20 per cent. are due to tuberculosis. That is an enormous proportion. I should think 20 per cent. is twenty times as great as the normal incidence of tuberculosis among the civil population. It is the great mercantile seamen's disease. It kills thousands of men in the course of a comparatively short period. It is a matter which the country after the war must take up, with a view to altering the conditions in some way and adopting measures to prevent the enormous mortality from this cause among mercantile seamen on whom, as I have already said, the future of the country may depend. It really is not a case for what my noble and learned friend calls logic chopping. It is a case for taking the ordinary common-sense view and making it perfectly clear that Lord Cork's Amendment is carried into effect.
LORD MOYNE: I think the three speeches to which we have listened have done much to clear the issue. Noble Lords are obviously in complete agreement in the wish to give full justice and the utmost equality of treatment between the Merchant Service and naval ratings. It therefore resolves itself into the problem of the best drafting to secure the intention of the Government and to prevent any possible misunderstanding or appeals to the Courts in future. The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, has shown that the Government want to remove any possible grievance, and that it is far from their thoughts, as some of us understood before, to make a distinction between a disability due to enemy action and a disability due to general conditions of living at sea. That, I take it, is quite clearly the intention of the Ministry of Pensions and the Lord Chancellor.
They are not, of course, conceding full equality of treatment as between the naval rating and the mercantile marine, and I take it that the reason is that there is a certain difficulty in doing so through doubt about the "attributability." There are cases in the sanatorium of the Seamen's Hospital Society—King George's

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Sanatorium for Sailors—of royal naval ratings who have never been to sea at all, but have spent the whole of their service in barracks, and who have got a complete insurance against tuberculosis consequences for the rest of their lives or until they are cured. But that type of case is excluded by the drafting of this Bill, and it may be that there is some justice for it. It may be impossible to be sure that men who have never been to sea have had their disability caused during their service, although that is much less likely in the case of a naval rating because he has had a thorough examination before being accepted. I take it that it is this point which has caused the extremely cumbersome drafting of the Bill. It is laying down the conditions which are to apply to the Mercantile Marine and which are not applying equally to the Royal Navy. That is why they have not said the Mercantile Marine during the war is to be treated just like the Royal Navy.
But in resolving our previous doubts about tuberculosis the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has filled me with new fears. He said that it was possible to have two views as to whether tuberculosis was a physical injury. He went on to say he was satisfied the Courts would take the view that it was a physical injury, but he outlined—what was new to me—the fact that there is a lot of case law about tuberculosis and other diseases——
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I be allowed to interrupt? There seems to be some slight misapprehension. In the case of pensions administered by the Ministry of Pensions they are administered under a scheme over which naturally the Ministry has control and they are not cases that come to the Courts at all. If I was defending a doubtful interpretation which might come up to be decided in the Law Courts, that would be different, but I was explaining the view taken by the authorities who drew up the scheme.
LORD MOYNE: I take it there are certain doubtful cases which are diseases to laymen but may be treated as physical injuries?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Ministry of Pensions will so treat tuberculosis. It will treat tuberculosis as a physical injury.
LORD MOYNE: I do not want to get that result which the noble and learned Viscount suggested when he said that if we put in tuberculosis we are going to exclude other things. Therefore I suggest that we should make sure of the drafting of the Bill. If there is any doubt that it is only tuberculosis that is going to be included and certain other things are not, let us make sure that everything is included. It is a matter of drafting. Probably the noble and learned Viscount can produce a much better solution than I can suggest on the spur of the moment, but it seems to me that the obvious solution is for the noble Earl to move his Amendment in a wider form and to put in, instead of "tuberculosis," "diseases due to war conditions" with or without the proviso that they must have been contracted at sea. I do not think there could be any real difficulty about the Money Resolution to which reference has been made. We can surely take the Government's word for it that it was intended to cover all diseases. If it was the intention to cover all diseases, and if the House of Commons had that in mind when they passed the Money Resolution, surely they could not raise any question of Privilege if we so amended the Bill as to give a full interpretation of their intention as defined by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor. I would beg that we do not leave this matter in doubt, but that the Government will accept some such Amendment as I have outlined in order to make quite sure that not only tuberculosis but all diseases due to war conditions at sea are covered.
LORD MARCHWOOD: I think the noble Earl who moved this Amendment is to be congratulated. When we find two eminent legal luminaries differing as they have done to-day we have proof that something must be put into the Bill which will remove all doubt that tuberculosis and other organic diseases are covered. I could not help thinking of that old saying, with which no doubt your Lordships are familiar, and which I need not quote in full, but which ends "and honest folk come by their own." I think all sailors will thank the noble Earl for having moved this Amendment and I would urge that the drafting of the Bill should be altered in such a manner as to remove any doubt. It can be easily done. The Amendment asks for a measure of simple

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justice for a body of men who have rendered great service to this country. It is through their efforts that we can live in these islands. These are days of change and the change that we are asking to be made is very small compared with many changes that have been undertaken to meet the exigencies of war.
In my opinion there is no logical reason for making any distinction between enemy action and war conditions. War conditions are due to enemy action and enemy action creates war conditions. Whether a man contracts tuberculosis through enemy action or as the result of war conditions makes no difference to his suffering, and it should make no difference to his eligibility for compensation. I cannot understand why the Government should insist upon this distinction. It cannot be a question of cost because the cost is nothing in our war expenditure. Do the Government thick for any reason that they will be flooded with a lot of claimants to pensions? If so, they can surely insert provisions as a safeguard against that.
The men's services are accepted and surely, that being so, liability to compensate them for suffering of whatever kind should also be accepted. There is no man in the Fighting Services of the Crown who is accepted if he is not a fit man. We should have fit men in the Mercantile Marine and the Government should see that these men are properly medically examined before they are accepted for service. To-day that examination is done in a somewhat perfunctory manner by a medical officer of the Shipping Federation. It is done when the men join the pool and when they are taken from the pool and go into a ship, but it is not done before every voyage. There seems certainly to be a case for tightening up the machinery in this respect, and the Government should see that it is done. If on examination it was found that a man had a tendency to tuberculosis it could be explained to him that war service would aggravate his condition and he could be advised not to go to sea. If the call of the sea was so great or his desire to serve his country was so great that he persisted, then he could be told that he did so at his own risk, and the Government would be absolved from any claim in his case. Such a man aboard ship not only runs the personal risk of his disease being aggravated but becomes a menace
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to those with whom he is associated on board ship in confined conditions.
To deny compensation to a man who has become a sufferer from tuberculosis as a result of war conditions, on the ground that cause and effect cannot be proved to meet some iron-clad regulation, is equivalent to denying a pension to a man whose leg was shot off because he could not produce the missile that caused the injury. I appeal to the Government to be a little more generous and broad-minded in this matter. It is not so much a case for strict legal construction as for human interpretation. In all cases the man concerned should be given the benefit of the doubt. If a promise is made by the Government that the Bill will be redrafted on the lines suggested, then I feel sure the noble Earl and those supporting him will be relieved to find that they will not be placed in a position of having to divide the Committee.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I be allowed to intervene again? It is quite plain to me that many of your Lordships—it may be the majority, I do not know—hold a view favourable to this matter being considered in the spirit in which some of the speeches have been made. It is quite clear—I have never regarded our debates here as being cut and thrust—that we are all agreed in trying to do the reasonable thing. In my speech—I am afraid rather a long speech—I tried to show some of the difficulties which the Ministry may feel, but I myself should certainly advise the Ministry, and I am sure they will accept that advice, that they should consider what has been said here with a view to framing such an Amendment as would meet at any rate some of the points raised.
For instance, the speech of my noble friend Lord Moyne, which was very moderate indeed, indicated a possible direction. One is rather at a disadvantage here in your Lordships' House because one cannot communicate with the people really responsible. Therefore I do not think I ought to do more than say that if, in the circumstances, the noble and gallant Earl were prepared at this stage to withdraw his Amendment, I would make it my business to make representations to the Minister and see whether he, with the help, of course, of other Ministers concerned, could not make

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some proposal and have it put on the Paper, which will have the effect of meeting views expressed by the noble and gallant Earl and those who have spoken in support of his Amendment. I am sure we are all agreed as to what we want. The question is what is the best way to get it.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: It would be better in my view if the principle was inserted in this Bill. If we do not insert it now and if the Amendment is withdrawn, there will be no Report stage.
LORD CHATFIELD: I do not apologize for speaking at this stage despite the reassuring statement which has just been made on behalf of the Government by the noble and learned Viscount. His first speech in answer to the noble and gallant Earl was, in my opinion, a most unsatisfactory one, as has been pointed out by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham. We must remember that this matter was raised on the Second Reading, and when the noble Viscount, Lord Clifden, replied he used certain arguments in opposing the idea of compensating seamen who contracted tuberculosis, especially those who got tuberculosis in consequence, as he said, of the stress and strain of war conditions. He said that to do so would be to do more for them than is done for other war workers. Many people to-day are working under very hard conditions which may expose them to the risk of contracting tuberculosis. Clearly these thoughts were not the noble Viscount's own, for I know that when you speak from a Government Bench on somebody else's Bill you are rather in the position of Balaam—you can only utter words that you have been told to speak. The noble Viscount has to speak to a brief and so there could have been no doubt in his mind when he introduced this Bill on the Second Reading, that the Government were opposed to compensating seamen in respect of tuberculosis if it arose from the general strain and stress of war, because to give compensation to them would necessitate it being extended to other civil workers. I do not think it is out of place, despite the reassurance of the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack, slightly to traverse that argument.
After all, do you, when you consider legislation for civilian workers, consider
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whether if you granted them some benefit it would be applicable to the merchant seamen? When you decide in Parliament that periods of labour in civil factories should be so many hours a week and so many days a week, do you say, "We cannot reduce those hours of labour because the hours of labour of the merchant seaman are unlimited. He may have to work for twenty-four hours a day continuously and seven days a week"? When you consider legislation intended to make conditions of life for the civil worker as favourable as they should be; when you make rules for the protection of his health; rules to ensure that he must have a certain space in which to sleep, that he must have a panel doctor to attend to him when he is ill and so on, do you say: "We cannot give the civilian worker these things because you must understand that the merchant seaman has none of them"? Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you say that we cannot limit civilian advantages because of the disadvantage at which it would place the merchant seaman, similarly you must say it is unfair, to deny to the merchant seaman privileges which the country wishes to give him because of the disadvantage at which it would place the civilian.
The whole argument falls to the ground, and it is the only argument that has been used at all by Government spokesmen in opposing this Amendment. I say it is the only one because the argument used by the noble and learned Viscount to-day avoided the main question. To say that tuberculosis is admitted to be a physical injury begs the point. Physical injury is only compensated for in this Bill, as the noble Viscount, Lord Maugham, has pointed out, when it is due to really direct enemy action.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Oh, no.
LORD CHATFIELD: I quite agree that that word "direct" is not legally accurate. The implication is that it is only under conditions of (a), (b) and (c) that the compensation due in respect of physical injury is granted. When the injury is caused by general conditions of life then compensation is excluded. The seaman's ship is his home: that is the whole difference between the seaman and the landsman. The landsman works, perhaps, at a dangerous profession; he may have to work under conditions of dust which do

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directly affect his lungs—and in certain cases he gets compensation for that work—but when his work is over he goes home to be looked after by his wife. He has, possibly, sixteen hours of rest before he resumes his unpleasant and dangerous task. Does the seaman go home when he has finished his work? He cannot—that is the whole basis of our claim. The seaman is a special professional man, and those who, like myself and the noble and gallant Earl who moved this Amendment, have spent over fifty years of our lives commanding and administering seamen, know how great is this tubercular danger on the sea. I can give your Lordships details to emphasize to you the very rapid development of a case of tuberculosis.
I was in command of the Atlantic Fleet and we did an exercise going from England to Gibraltar in January. It was exceedingly rough. We were six days at sea. We arrived at Gibraltar after having been severely knocked about by the weather and after the small ships had all been battened down. After a week in port I visited the naval hospital, and there I found a young man, only nineteen years of age, who had been through the training ship and had been passed into the Navy as medically fit for sea service, lying in bed in an advanced state of virulent tuberculosis. I asked the medical officer the circumstances of the case, and he said: "This man, by his medical history, had nothing wrong with him when he left England; but during those six days in a destroyer, knocking about with the ventilation shut down altogether, the ventilators screwed clown to keep the water out and the ports shut, he developed this disease." The man died within three weeks. Luckily, that is not a typical case, but it is a very good example of the danger that the seaman runs.
It is really not from charity, nor from any feeling of sentiment, that I support this Amendment; I do so from a sense of justice and a desire for wisdom in administration. It is well known that a great many men have dormant tuberculosis. Very often tubercular symptoms may occur in a child between the ages of four and nine, but by care and treatment they can be overcome, and the wound in the lung can be healed; but those conditions, am informed on good medical authority, may reappear, in that a man who has suffered from them is
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exceedingly likely, under the conditions of sea life, suddenly to develop virulent tuberculosis. In those circumstances not only is his own life jeopardized, but he jeopardizes the lives of his shipmates; and that is a very important matter of which those who command seamen are very conscious. It is not possible to isolate a man who develops tuberculosis in a merchant ship on the way to Australia. There may be no doctor on the ship to look after him or to tell him what is the matter with him. He must go on living in that ship among his messmates, very likely sleeping in a hammock which touches the hammock of the next man to him, and with his feet only a couple of feet from the deck overhead, from which the hammock is slung. In those circumstances the chances of infection are enormous; the risk that he will give the disease to his next-door neighbour is very great indeed.
The State can safeguard itself against any undue cost—if, unfortunately, that has to be considered—in granting this request by examining men before they enter the Merchant Navy. There is what is known as "mass X-ray treatment," which is a cheap form of examination by X-ray by which a very considerable number of men can be cheaply and rapidly tested to see whether they have tubercular weakness. If that system was adopted, the risk of a man going to sea and endangering the lives of others by conveying tubercular infection would be almost eradicated. It would not mean that a man who had been X-rayed and who showed no signs of the disease might not develop tuberculosis under sea conditions, but it would be an enormous check to the danger. That should be done. I hope that the Committee will support the noble and gallant Earl, and that he will hesitate to withdraw his Amendment at the present stage, because he has had no assurance from the noble and learned Lord Chancellor that, even if the matter is reconsidered, the Government will reconsider it along the important lines of including tuberculosis and similar diseases which arc due to the stress and strain of war conditions and to the conditions of living of the seaman, whose ship is his home.
LORD JESSEL: After the very interesting debate which we have had, I hope that the noble and gallant Earl will accept

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the proposal of the Government. I came here fully intending to vote for his Amendment, but, on behalf of many friends on these Benches, I should like to say that, if he presses his Amendment, we shall not feel able to vote for it. We think that this Bill requires further consideration. My noble friend Lord Moyne seemed to me to hit the mark when he said that it was not possible to single out tuberculosis; there are other diseases as well, as the noble and learned Lord Chancellor said. I think that my noble and learned friend Lord Maugham is perfectly right when he says that the pledge should be in the Bill. Lord Banbury, with whom I was associated for many years, used to say: "Never trust the Government; insist on seeing it in the Bill." I hope that the noble and gallant Earl who moved this Amendment will follow that advice, but at the same time will now withdraw his Amendment, so as to give the Government time to consider the whole situation in the light of the most important debate which has taken place.
LORD ADDISON: It seems to me that the noble and learned Lord Chancellor, accustomed as he is to sense the wishes of Parliament, has recognized that the majority of your Lordships, and certainly my noble friends and myself, want to see this Bill give effect to what the noble and gallant Earl has proposed. Personally, I should have thought that the statement by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, was a correct interpretation of the Bill, but I am not a lawyer. However, we have had the offer of the Government to take account of what has been said, and to try, presumably in concert with the noble and gallant Earl, to insert words in the Bill to make it clear that it does mean what the noble and gallant Earl wishes it to mean. I understand that it would not be very easy to do that unless an Amendment was made at this stage. I suggest that the most convenient method would be to adjourn the discussion on the Bill now. The noble and gallant Earl would not withdraw his Amendment. Nothing would happen except that the useful conference which has been suggested would take place, and, when the matter was taken up next time, the whole question would probably be agreed. If the debate is adjourned, we shall, I think, be able to effect what is desired.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I should like to support that suggestion. As an old Leader of the House, I did not come here with the intention of speaking, but, in listening to the debate, I have been very much impressed by the fact that the Government and their critics all profess to mean the same thing. It should not be beyond the wit of your Lordships to devise suitable words to carry out what is intended, and my noble friend Lord Moyne has pointed out that this Amendment might, and probably would, exclude certain things which we want to see included. I think that it will be very much wiser to let the Government discuss this matter with my noble and gallant friend Lord Cork and Orrery, and devise suitable words to carry out what is apparently the intention of every one in this Committee, and which I think could be more easily carried out if the Government supported it.
LORD GIFFORD: As a member of the Royal Navy, I naturally wish to see everything possible done to help the merchant seamen, and it appears that the feeling of the whole Committee and of His Majesty's Government is the same. I should like to make one suggestion of how that feeling might be expressed. If the words "or diseases contracted" could be inserted on page 1, line 21, after the words "physical injuries sustained," I think that might meet the wishes of the Government and of the Committee. I disagree with one thing that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, said, because I consider that paragraph (a) covers nearly all the conditions due to war. That paragraph reads:
"the taking of measures with' a view to avoiding, preventing or hindering enemy action against ships …"
That includes the darkening of ships and the closing of watertight doors, which are two of the things which most make for overcrowding and bad ventilation in ships. Possibly if the words "or diseases contracted" were inserted, as I have suggested, that might be a way out which would satisfy both the noble and gallant Earl, Lord Cork, and the Government.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: We have had an extremely interesting and important debate. One thing has been perfectly clear, and that is that our intention is the same; and a second is that there is a

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difference about the methods by which that intention should be realized. My noble friend the Lord Chancellor has made a suggestion that the Amendment should be withdrawn and that we should give some further consideration to it. Now Lord Addison has suggested that we should adjourn the debate altogether. That will give us all time for further consideration. I am quite certain there is nobody on the Government Bench or elsewhere who has not realized the very strong feeling that exists. We are anxious to have agreement, and I therefore suggest that the easiest thing would be for me to move that the debate be now adjourned, and I therefore beg to move.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned—(Viscount Cranborne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to; debate adjourned accordingly.

FINANCE BILL.
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTER OF WORKS AND PLANNING BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
WAR-TIME NURSERIES.
LORD NATHAN LORD NATHAN had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government the present and prospective position as regards war-time nurseries; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, as the attention of your Lordships' House has been directed for so long a time to-day to a matter of importance and some intricacy, and as my noble friend Lord Winster is going to withdraw his Motion which was on the Paper for the next sitting day, which, consequently, will be a free day, I beg to postpone the Motion standing in my name until then.

COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection that the Viscount Mersey be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the
506
Lord Kenilworth, and that the Viscount Mersey be Chairman of the said Committee:
Read, and agreed to.
Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Reported, without amendment.
SOUTH WALES ELECTRIC POWER BILL [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment.

SWINDON GAS ORDER, 1942.
KETTERING GAS ORDER, 1942.
Report from the Special Orders Committee that no Petitions have been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House:
Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the Borough of Tenterden:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
London Passenger Transport Board,
Mid-Wessex Water.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Third Report from the Select Committee made, and to be printed.
House adjourned.