Sitting of 19 March 1941

Preamble
The House being met, the Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence, through indisposition, of Mr. SPEAKER from this Day's Sitting. Whereupon Sir DENNIS HERBERT, the CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, proceeded to the Table, and, after Prayers, took the Chair as DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Standing Order.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  GREAT BRITAIN AND RUSSIA (POLISH PRESIDENTS BROADCAST).
  Mr. Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to a recent broadcast by the Polish President, which was transmitted in a translated version over the Home Service, in which unsuitable references to Russia were made, giving the impression that we were involved in war with that country; and will he convey to the Polish authorities now in England that every endeavour ought to be made to improve Anglo-Russian relations?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): This broadcast was addressed by the President of Poland to the Polish people, and I can find no passage in it which conveys the impression derived by the right hon. Gentleman. The responsibility for Anglo-Soviet relations rests with the two Governments concerned.
  Mr. Wedgwood: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen a translation of this broadcast?
  Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir, but I did not derive from it the same impression as did the right hon. Gentleman.

  BRITISH AMBASSADOR, MADRID.
  Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for what reason
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  His Majesty's Ambassador in Madrid, though drawing no salary, receives in allowances a sum, £8,100, which exceeds by more than 25 per cent. the combined amount, £6,000, which was drawn in salary, £2,500, and allowances, £3,500, by his predecessor?
  Mr. Butler: The emoluments of His Majesty's Ambassador at Madrid have been fixed at such a figure as will enable him to discharge the duties of his Mission in a suitable manner. The emoluments of his predecessor were, in fact: salary, £2,500; and allowances, £4,125.
  Mr. Stokes: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the salary paid to the Ambassador is subject to British Income Tax?
  Mr. Butler: I should prefer to see that question on the Paper.
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: Are we not getting full value for this money?
  Mr. Butler: The question of my hon. and gallant Friend gives me the opportunity of saying that we are getting excellent value from the signal services performed by our Ambassador.
  Mr. Stokes: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am saying nothing about the value received for the money but am speaking of the principle of paying people outside the Diplomatic Service more than the ordinary Diplomatic servants get?

  ITALY (GREEK AND ALBANIAN HOSTAGES).
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make with reference to the seizure of Greeks, over 1,000 in number, as hostages by the Italian forces in Epirus and Albania, concerning which the Greek Red Cross Society has telegraphed to the International Red Cross Society, Geneva, and the British Red Cross Society?
  Mr. Butler: According to information supplied by the Greek Government, up to February of this year the Italian army took as hostages about 200 Greek subjects and 250 Albanians belonging to the Orthodox Church. These came from 54 towns and villages in the Greek province of Epirus and in Southern Albania. They

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  consisted of leading citizens and priests, together with a number of old men, women and children. They were marched to concentration camps situated in Northern Albania. His Majesty's Government naturally condemn this action.
  Mr. Mander: Is this the ordinary usage of war, and does it not show that the Fascists are very good Allies for the Nazis?
  Mr. Butler: In the circumstances in which they took place, these deportations were a contravention of the ordinary rules of international law.
  Mr. Hannah: Is it not time that the noble Italian nation had another Government?

  FRENCH NORTH AFRICA (GERMAN PERSONNEL).
  Mr. Martinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information on the numbers of German personnel now in French North Africa and the avocations in which they are known to be engaged?
  Mr. Butler: Delegations. of the German Armistice Commission are established in Algeria, Tunis and in the French zone of Morocco. The delegation which has recently been sent to Casablanca is said to consist of about 60 men. These include members of the German army, navy and air force, and it may be assumed that technical experts of various kinds are also included. No details are available of the numbers of the German Commissions elsewhere in North Africa. Their ostensible, though not, I am sure, their only, object is to supervise the execution of the Armistice terms.
  Mr. Martin: Are the Government prepared to take further action in this matter?
  Mr. Butler: We are watching the situation very closely, as it develops.

  GERMAN-OCCUPIED COUNTRIES.
  Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the annual amount
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  of money that the Governments of countries who are under the military control of Germany have to pay to that country?
  Mr. Butler: The Reply to this Question is necessarily long and includes a number of figures. I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the reply:
  The burden imposed on the occupied territories can be reckoned only partly in terms of money paid by the Governments of the occupied countries to the German Government. The greater part of the burden consists essentially of various obligations exacted in kind. In the first place, the territories have to contribute directly to the cost of the army of occupation; this charge includes generous pay for the troops. The following are the estimated annual costs of occupation in the Western occupied territories, the sterling equivalents being based on the rates of exchange prior to the occupation. The figures must be treated with reserve in the case of Holland.

  Total (in Millions).

  Total (in £Millions).

  £ per head of population.

  Norway

  1,200 crowns

  68

  25

  Denmark

  540,,

  26

  8

  Belgium

  9,000 francs

  75

  8

  Holland

  405 guilders

  54

  6

  France

  14,600 francs

  827

  20

  It will thus be seen that the German occupation is estimated to be costing the Western occupied territories annually a sum in the neighbourhood of £1,050,000,000. In addition Germany receives certain amounts, estimates of which are not yet available, from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Rumania and Bulgaria. Relatively, Norway suffers the heaviest burden per head of population, which amounts to over one-third of her pre-war national income. It may also be noted that the maximum annual demand from Germany ever contemplated under the Young Plan was £125,000,000, which, even taking into account the change in the sterling price of gold since that date, amounts to less than one-third of the present French payment.
  The second form of burden arising out of the German occupation is that the occupied territories are obliged to send to

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  Germany more goods than they receive from her in return. This surplus of exports is paid for in blocked marks from which no benefit is, or is likely to be, derived. Under this heading may be reckoned the value of goods requisitioned in the country by the German authorities and sent to Germany, including articles belonging to individuals, such as gold and jewellery. This second type of burden is considerably less now than it was in 1940 owing to the fact that the territories have to a large extent been denuded of readily exportable surpluses. Even so, the total annual loss to the Western occupied territories may still be estimated at about £100,000,000 a year.
  The estimated total burden is thus in the neighbourhood of £1,150,000,000 a year, and this does not take into account the many indirect losses caused to the territories concerned by the German occupation, for which no estimates are available.

  MEXICO (OIL DISPUTE).
  Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the out standing difficulties preventing a settlement with the Mexican Government in connection with the Shell Oil Company?
  Mr. Butler: As the hon. Member knows, the Mexican Government expropriated the oil companies in 1938. Hitherto, no suggestion for a fair and equitable settlement has been made by the Mexican Government.
  Mr. Thorne: When does the right hon. Gentleman think we shall be able to get this unfortunate job settled?
  Mr. Butler: When a suggestion such as I have intimated is made.

  ITALIAN NON-COMBATANTS (ABYSSINIA).
  Sir Edmund Brocklebankasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any action has been taken by the Italian Government as a result of the Prime Minister's announcement on 21st January, concerning the safety of Italian non-combatants in Abyssinia, Eritrea and Somaliland?
  Mr. Butler: Any suggestion for securing the safety of these persons would have to
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  come from the Italian Government or from its commanders on the spot. No such suggestion has reached His Majesty's Government. In any case, it will be clear that while operations are actively proceeding, His Majesty's Forces can do nothing to protect non-combatants behind the enemy lines, who might, in certain circumstances, be menaced by the collapse of internal order. It is the duty of the enemy High Command to ensure the protection of such persons.
  Mr. Mander: Is not the murder of women and children absolutely abhorrent to the feeling and tradition of the Abyssinian nation, and has not the Emperor himself issued a proclamation on the subject?
  Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE (COMMISSIONS).
  Mr. Liddallasked the Secretary of State for Air why serving and other ranks are not permitted to apply for vacancies for which their civilian knowledge is required, as this procedure puts volunteers in an unfair position as compared with those who await call-up; and whether he will issue instructions to prevent positions with commissioned rank being readily available to those not serving when the same suitable experience is available from those already serving, and who, in addition, have some military record?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): It is already the practice to meet officer requirements in the R.A.F. as far as possible by promotion from the ranks, and airmen can be recommended for commissions at any time, irrespective of length of service. Commanding officers have recently been instructed that no obstacle is to be placed in the way of an airman who wishes to state his case if he considers that he has special qualifications or feels that he has been overlooked.

  AIR MINISTRY ESTABLISHMENTS (FIRE-BOMB FIGHTERS).
  9. Mr. Simmonds: asked the Secretary of State for Air whether fire-watching at civil establishments, under the control of the Air Ministry, is performed on a paid or on a voluntary basis?
  Captain Balfour: Fire-watching is performed on a voluntary basis at all Air Ministry civil establishments, except in one building where special circumstances necessitate the employment of paid fire watchers.
  Mr. Simmonds: In that one case, are the paid fire-watchers members of the Ministry's staff who are paid extra overtime for fire watching, or are the fire-watchers solely engaged for that purpose?
  Captain Balfour: I should like notice of that question.

  PALESTINE (BALKAN JEWS).
  Mr. Wedgwoodasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether any progress can be reported with regard to allowing some of the Jews driven out of Rumania to enter Palestine; and will he also extend the same permission to Jews in Bulgaria, who have just now passed under Nazi rule, and to those in Yugoslavia before it is too late?
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall):The Jewish Agency have been informed that Jews in Rumania who received Palestine immigration certificates before 15th February will be admitted to Palestine, provided that satisfactory arrangements can be made to prove their identity and bonâfides. Practical arrangements for applying these safeguards are now being worked out. My Noble Friend has not received any representations regarding the position of Jewish holders of Palestine immigration certificates in Bulgaria since the German occupation of that country, but in the event of this question arising, consideration will be given to the possibility of making similar arrangements. With regard to Yugoslavia, the High Commissioner for Palestine proposes, at the request of the Jewish Agency, to issue a limited number of "replacement certificates" for veteran Zionists in that country.
  Mr. Wedgwood: Is my hon. Friend aware that the number of certificates granted in Rumania bears no relation to the number of Jews who have been exterminated in that country recently, and will he see that steps are taken to help the people concerned to find a refuge?
  Mr. Hall: There is a certain number included and agreed to by the High Commissioner.
  Mr. Wedgwood: Can the hon. Gentleman tell me how many?
  Mr. Hall: Including dependants, something over 700.

  TRANSPORT.

    "HELP-YOUR-NEIGHBOUR" SCHEME.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Minister of Transport to what extent "Help Your Neighbour" petrol is available for motorists who can only give casual lifts as opposed to regular assistance to definite persons; and whether he will arrange that potential passengers for cars using such petrol shall congregate at specified places on the recognised routes out of London, so that they can be quickly picked up by motorists?
    The Minister of Transport (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon): The "Help-Your-Neighbour" scheme does not apply to casual lifts. The second part of the Question does not therefore arise.

    CANALS (INQUIRY).
    Sir Patrick Hannonasked the Minister of Transport whether he is in a position to make a statement on the result of recent investigation into the development of canal transport; whether he can state the number of barges now lying idle at various important centres where transport facilities are an outstanding necessity; and whether any special effort is being made to recruit and train crews for the navigation of canal traffic?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Montague): The investigation by Mr. Frank Pick into the carriage of traffic by canal is being pursued energetically, and as a matter of urgency, but I am not yet in a position to say when it will be completed. The matters referred to by my hon. Friend are covered by the investigation, but I should like to make it clear that concurrently with Mr. Pick's inquiries all possible steps are being taken, by reconditioning of barges and other means, to enable the canals of this country to make their maximum contribution to the war effort
    Sir P. Hannon: When will the report from Mr. Frank Pick be received?
    Mr. Montague: I cannot answer that Question with any degree of accuracy, but I do not think it will be long.
    Sir P. Hannon: Is my hon. Friend aware that this question has been neglected shamefully for years, and that it ought to be tackled with energy and rapidity?
    Mr. Montague: Yes, Sir, I agree with you; but my hon. Friend will realise that the reconditioning of some canals, not to speak of barges, is an old story, and one of great importance at the present moment.
    Mr. R. C. Morrison: Is Mr. Frank Pick's investigation intended to be of service in the present war?

    RAILWAY COMPARTMENTS (RESERVATION)
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Minister of Transport on whose authority the notices, "Not for public use," are placed on railway-carriage windows; and whether he will find out whether regard is given to ordinary travelling persons when such notices are being used?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Under certain conditions, compartments have to be set aside. When this is done, the sign, "Not for public use," is employed.
    Mr. Tinker: What conditions are laid down, and to whom do they apply?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: They are rather curious. The categories are: Broken windows, infectious diseases, corpses, high Service officials, lunatics, convicts and Cabinet Ministers.
    Mr. Tinker: May I point out to the Minister that on Thursday last I saw three compartments of a train at Euston Station which were labelled "Not for public use," and that one of them bore the name of a lord who does not occupy any official position? Half-way on the journey, and before we reached any station, two of the labels were taken down, and it appeared to me that some kind of trickery was going on in reserving them by the use of those notices.
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: I will look into the matter.
    Mr. Leach: How do the railway officials distinguish all those categories?

    ARMED FORCES (FIRST-CLASS COMPARTMENTS)
    Mr. Butcherasked the Minister of Transport when instructions were given to the London and North Eastern Railway Company that sailors, soldiers and Air Force men should be permitted to travel first-class when sufficient third-class seating accommodation is not provided; and whether he will have inquiry made as to whether these instructions were observed on the 5.50 train from King's Cross on Friday, 14th March?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: The instructions were given on 23rd July, 1940, and I am advisd that there is no evidence that they were not observed on the occasion to which my hon. Friend refers. The passengers who joined the train were, however, 300 in excess of the seating accommodation available, and arrangements have been made to run a relief train on Friday next, 21st March.
    Mr. Butcher: While thanking my right hon. and gallant Friend for his reply, may I ask whether he is aware that two naval ratings were removed under the direct supervision of the stationmaster from the carriage in which I was travelling? Will he take steps to prevent this sort of thing happening again?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Did my hon. Friend say there was no alternative accommodation?
    Mr. Butcher: Yes.
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: And that the ratings stood in a corridor?
    Mr. Butcher: They were removed from the first-class accommodation.
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Where were they put?
    Mr. Butcher: I understand they were turned out on to the platform.
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: I will look into that matter.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

    SIR WALTER CITRINE (BROADCAST CENSORSHIP).
    Mr. Priceasked the Minister of Information whether his attention has been drawn to the refusal of Sir Walter

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    Citrine to broadcast on account of the censorship of part of his statement by the British Broadcasting Corporation; and whether, in view of the importance of Sir Walter's visit to the United States of America, he will take steps to see that his views are given adequate publicity?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Duff Cooper): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 13th March.
    Mr. Price: Was there any further discussion in this matter with Sir Walter, in view of its importance to America? Can nothing he done about it?
    Mr. Cooper: No, Sir. There was nothing further to discuss. As the House is already aware, there was in Sir Walter's broadcast a passage which came under the Defence Regulations, and it had therefore to be cut out.
    Mr. Cocks: What is this subject which nobody is allowed to mention?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the Minister look into the way in which this matter was dealt with?
    Mr. Cooper: It was dealt with in the only possible way. The situation was very properly explained to Sir Walter, and I think he understood that he could not expect to enjoy privileges which were denied to the Press and to others.
    Mr. Mander: Was not the subject in the Question already well known in America?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the Minister discuss it with Sir Walter himself?

    PEACE AIMS (BROADCAST).
    Mr. Stokes(for Mr. Cove) asked the Minister of Information by whom, and on what date, was the case for a statement of peace aims made on behalf of the Government over the British Broadcasting Corporation?
    Mr. Cooper: I am not aware of any occasion on which the case for a statement of peace aims has been broadcast on behalf of the Government.
    Mr. Stokes: Is the Minister not aware that the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) recently broad-
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    cast a statement on why peace aims should not be announced? Is it not fair that an opportunity should be given to a Member of this House holding the opposite point of view to broadcast that view?
    Mr. Cooper: The other point of view has been stated by Mr. Priestley very eloquently.
    Mr. Stokes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Reply, I beg to give notice that my hon. Friend or I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    MEETINGS, LEEDS.
    Major Milnerasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that meetings have been promoted in the City of Leeds under the auspices of his Ministry for a Conservative speaker, after consultation with the Leeds Conservative Association alone, and without reference to, or approval by, the local information committee; whether such meetings were at the expense of public funds and whether this political preference had his approval?
    Mr. Cooper: The two meetings to which the hon. and gallant Member appears to be referring were recently held in N.E. Leeds, when, owing to the shortness of notice, it was impossible to consult the local information committee. The clubs of the Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties were, however, asked to assist. At the first of the two meetings, although the Labour party found it impossible to be represented, there were two members of the Liberal party on the platform. At the second meeting the chair was taken by a member of the Liberal party, and the vote of thanks was seconded by a member of the Labour party. The only expenditure involved was a small amount on a Press advertisement, and a few handbills and invitation cards. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that there is no desire to show political preference in arranging these meetings, although it is not always possible to assure that all parties shall be equally represented.
    Major Milner: Is it not a fact that the meetings were arranged at the request of the local Conservative Association, and what was the difficulty in communicating with the local Labour party?
    Mr. Cooper: The hon. Member for the constituency gave short notice that he was going to be in the constituency on that day, and the local information committee could not be convened in time to be consulted; and so the meetings officer of the Regional information office got on to the three clubs of the three parties and did his best to arrange matters.
    Major Milner:Are we to understand that any local Member of Parliament may, by arrangement with the local office of the Ministry, have meetings arranged in a constituency at the expense of the Ministry of Information?
    Mr. Cooper: If a Member of Parliament wants to arrange an all-party meeting, the machinery of the Ministry of Information will be put at his disposal to assist him to do so.
    Major Milner: Is it not a fact that this was not an all-party meeting, that no steps were taken to make it an all-party meeting, and that, no communication having been sent to the local Labour party, only the Conservative Association was consulted?
    Mr. Cooper: The local Labour and Liberal clubs were consulted, and both parties were represented at one of the meetings.

    REGIONAL OFFICE, LEEDS.
    Major Milnerasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware of the existing acute dissatisfaction with the political partisanship and lack of consultation with the local information committee practised by the Leeds Regional Office of his Ministry; and whether, having regard to the number of complaints made as to the operations of this office and the resulting effect on national unity, he proposes to take any action to avoid such complaints in the future?
    Mr. Cooper:I am not aware of the dissatisfaction to which the hon. and gallant Member refers. On the contrary, my information is that the Regional Information Officer works in close and amicable contact with the Leeds Information Committee. Nor have I any evidence that the work of the Regional office has any but a beneficial effect on national unity. If the hon. and gallant Member has any such evidence, I should be very glad to consider it.
    Major Milner: Will my right hon. Friend obtain from the local Information Committee their opinion as to the usefulness of this office?

  POST OFFICE (PARCELS FROM OVERSEAS).
  Mr. Manderasked the Postmaster-General what limit is placed upon the number or sizes of parcels which may be despatched by persons overseas to persons in this country?
  The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison):The maximum size for parcels sent to this country from overseas is 3 feet 6 inches in length and 6 feet in length and girth combined, or appropriate equivalents in the case of parcels from countries using the metric system of measurement. There is no postal limit to the number.
  Mr. Mander: Is there not the possibility of an abuse of this privilege by people with rich friends abroad who send numbers of parcels each day, thus taking up shipping space?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not think that is a matter for the Post Office.

  EDUCATION (TEACHING OF FREEDOM).
  Mr. Wedgwoodasked the President of the Board of Education whether he will consider, at this appropriate time, commencing the teaching in all State schools of the virtues of freedom; whether local education authorities have been, or will be, circularised accordingly; and what steps he proposes to take?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Ede): I hope that the terms of my right hon. Friend's Question are not intended to suggest that the virtues of freedom are not at present inculcated in the schools. This is far from being the case. These virtues are the very basis of the conception of education embodied in the Board's handbook of suggestions for teachers. They underline the whole training and outlook in ways intelligible to children through the discipline and life of the school as well as through the ordinary classroom teaching. While the importance of liberty and the recognition of the responsibilities and privileges

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  which it entails are in these ways brought constantly before the minds and into the lives of schoolchildren, there are other opportunities, such as discussions on current affairs and the celebration of appropriate anniversaries, of making a more formal and direct approach to the subject. I share to the full my right hon. Friend's sense of the importance of this matter, but I do not think that it lends itself to treatment by circular. It is essentially a teachers' problem, and teachers can be in no doubt as to the importance which the Board attach to it.
  Mr. Wedgwood: Has my hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the valuable anthology on freedom which is on the bookstalls, and will it be possible to recommend it for this purpose?
  Mr. Ede: I have received two free copies of the book in question, one direct from one of the joint authors. It is not the practice of the Board to recommend particular textbooks—that is part of the freedom that we are allowing local education authorities—but anything that can be done to bring children of appropriate ages into touch with the English literature on the subject of freedom would, of course, be regarded by the Board as a very appropriate step to be taken.
  Colonel Sandeman Allen: Is that textbook looked upon as literature?
  Mr. Ede: I do not wish to give the book any further advertisement in the presence of the Minister of Information, but I would say that, from my perusal of it, it appears to include all the classical utterances of the English-speaking races on this particular subject.

  NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE INSTITUTES.
  Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for War whether the officer in charge of a military camp has the authority to enable him to inspect the kitchens and other quarters of the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes in his camp, and to satisfy himself that these are kept clean and that there is no unnecessary waste?
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Richard Law): Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will give par-
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  ticulars of the constitution of the committee which is responsible for the administration of the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes?
  Mr. Law: The Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes is a corporation consisting of a council of 12 members, four appointed by each of the Service Departments, and the management is in the hands of a board which includes an officer appointed by each of the Service Departments. The management is subject to directions of the council as regards policy, scope of trading, limitation of financial and commercial operations and any other matters which the Service Departments may instruct the council to reserve. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the present constitution of the council and the board of management.
  Mr. Lipson: Can my hon. Friend say whether there are any women on the council or on the body responsible for the institutes? If not, will he consider appointing some practical women?
  Mr. Law: No, Sir. There are no women on it at the moment, and I cannot see any need for them.
  Mr. Lipson: In view of the fact that there are so many women serving in the Forces, would it not be desirable to give consideration to the question, as this is a matter in which women's advice would be very useful?
  Mr. Law: If any need for women advisers on this board should be proved, certainly it will be considered, but so far there is no proof that there is any such need.
  Sir Herbert Williams: As this board is the largest dealer in alcohol in the country, could not the hon. Member consider appointing the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor)?
  Following is the list:
  NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE INSTITUTES.
  MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
  Appointed by the Admiralty.
  Rear-Admiral F. H. W. Goolden (Vice-President).
  C. R. B. Lane, Esq. Brigadier A. P. Dawson, O.B.E.,R.M.
  Captain D. de Pass, R.N.
  Appointed by the Army Council.
  General Sir Reginald S. May, K.C.B., K.B.E., C.M.G., D.S.O.(President).
  Major-General M. S. Brander, C.B.,O.B.E., M.I.Mech.E.
  Major-General R. F. B. Naylor, C.B.E., D.S.O., M.C.
  Colonel R. E. Barnwell.
  Appointed by the Air Council.
  Air Vice-Marshal E. W. Havers.
  Sir Harold G. Howitt, D.S.O., M.C, F.C.A.
  Croup Captain F. C. Halahan, C.M.G., C.B.E., D.S.O., M.V.O. Wing Commander E. G. Keeping.
  Members of the Board of Management.
  L. C. Royle, Esq. (Chairman).
  R. G. Erskine, Esq. (Deputy Chairman).
  Paymaster Captain E. W. Whitting-ton-Ince, R.N. (nominated by the Admiralty).
  Colonel J. Benskin, D.S.O., O.B.E. (nominated by the Army Council).
  Group Captain W. G. W. Prall (nominated by the Air Council).

  BRITISH ARMY (REQUISITIONING CLAIMS).
  Sir William Davisonasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the serious delay in paying compensation in the case of houses requisitioned for military purposes and subsequently given up, the property being left in a dilapidated condition after the departure of the troops, and the owner being consequently unable to let the same to a new tenant; and whether more prompt payment will be made in cases of this kind in future?
  Mr. Law: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) yesterday. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind and will send me details, I shall be glad to look into it.
  Sir W. Davison: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the answers given yesterday were very unsatisfactory and did not meet the point at issue, namely, that people have houses which are left in a damaged condition when the troops are removed and which take many weeks to be put in
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  order so that they are in a fit state to live in again; and is he aware that one reason for this is that these houses are left with a considerable number of soldiers with no officer in charge?
  Mr. Law:With regard to the time which elapses before any allowance is made, I am informed that there is no reason for delay. In a great many of the outstanding cases the fault does not lie with the War Office, the delay being due to the form sent to the owner not having been returned.
  Sir W. Davison: Is there any reason why these houses should be in a seriously dilapidated state, as they are, by reason of bad usage when in the occupation of the military?
  Sir A. Knox: Is it not entirely owing to lack of proper supervision by the officers?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    TOBACCO SUPPLIES, LEEDS.
    Mr. Craik Hendersonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that recently Leeds has had practically no pipe tobacco or cigarettes for sale in tobacconists' shops; what is the reason for this; and whether he will see that this city is treated fairly in comparison with other parts of the country?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): I have made inquiries among manufacturers and distributors and am assured that supplies of tobacco and cigarettes sent to Leeds have represented a fair share of the total output. As I have stated in reply to previous Questions, demand throughout the country exceeds supply, and there is a tendency in many areas for retailers to sell out their stocks before fresh supplies arrive. I can assure my hon. Friend that the Board of Trade are fully aware of the difficulties of the general situation.
    Mr. Henderson: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman realise the acute shortage there is? Out of 11 shops that I visited last month 10 had no pipe tobacco or cigarettes and the other had no cigarettes or matches, and cannot something be done about it?
    Captain Waterhouse: I realise that in certain areas, especially towards the end

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    of the month, there is an acute shortage, but we are doing what we can to get round the difficulty.
    Sir T. Moore: Is not the reason that an unfairly large proportion is sent to N.A.A.F.I.? That has been suggested in many parts of the country.
    Captain Waterhouse: I do not think that is the cause.

    MOTOR CARS (IMPORT).
    Sir H. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade why, having regard to the shortage of shipping space, licences have been recently issued for the importation of large motor cars of a luxury type?
    Captain Waterhouse: Since the outbreak of war it has been the policy of the Board of Trade, in view of shipping and currency considerations, to prohibit importation of private motor cars. The only licensed importations have been a few cars the property of refugees which were brought into the United Kingdom at the time of the attack on the Low Countries.
    Sir H. Williams: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us whether the two enormous cars I saw in Wiltshire on Sunday were smuggled?

  INTERNATIONAL RECONSTRUCTION.
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Minister without Portfolio what steps are being taken to ensure that satisfactory international economic controls shall be ready for operation immediately upon the cessation of hostilities; and whether, in view of the disastrous consequences of the breakdown of these controls after the last war, and of the even greater need for the reconstruction of Europe after the present war, he will state as soon as possible his intentions in this respect?
  The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): The economic problems involved in international reconstruction after the war, including those of currency, finance and trade, are among those which are being carefully studied, but, as the circumstances in which they
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  will come up for solution are still uncertain, any statement at present would be premature.
  Mr. Adams: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he considers such a statement may be made—will the date be remote, or fairly early?
  Mr. Greenwood: I think that must depend on the turn of events, and that, I am not in a position to forecast at the moment.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    MARGARINE.
    Mr. T. Smithasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the fact that in the present circumstances margarine of the superior quality cannot be obtained in some areas, he will consider the desirability of issuing only one grade of margarine of good quality, so that there may be equal treatment all round?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George):No, Sir. The price of second-quality margarine could not be kept at its present low figure, if the special quality was withdrawn. Increased supplies of special quality are now available and should be obtainable everywhere. If my hon. Friend will provide me with particulars of areas where it cannot be bought, I will make inquiries.
    Mr. Woodburn: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us whether there is the same quantity of vitamins in both qualities of margarine, or is the lower grade deficient in vitamins?
    Major Lloyd George: They are equal.
    Mr. Garro Jones: The Ministry have decided that all people should eat the same kind of bread; why should not the two grades be mixed and sold, in industrial areas, at the same price?
    Major Lloyd George: The lower priced grade has been provided for those who cannot afford to buy the better quality at the higher price.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Yes, but I would suggest that the time has come when we should all eat the same quality, for the national convenience.

    ESSENTIAL FOODSTUFFS (DISTRIBUTION).
    Mr. Oliverasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that, due to maldistribution, there is a serious shortage of cheese in the mining areas, and although this commodity is available in restaurants elsewhere, it cannot be acquired in many shops in these districts; and whether steps will be taken to remedy this complaint?
    Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what steps he is taking to remedy the serious shortages of essential food in Middlesbrough, where the majority of workers are engaged in heavy steel industry?
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered a resolution sent to the Ministry from a conference in Kirkcaldy, called by the Fife and Kinross Co-operative Conference Association, in which the present food policy of the Government is condemned, while a demand is made for a new policy that will give adequate supplies to Co-operative societies on the basis of their registrations; and what steps does he propose to take?
    Major Lloyd George: Inquiries I have made do not substantiate the suggestion that any particular area or distributive organisation is less favourably placed than others. Shortages of some unrationed foodstuffs are general, and manufacturers and distributors have been informed of the movements of population in order that they may adjust their distribution of such supplies as are available. Rationed foods are distributed in exact relation to the number of registered customers. With the object of securing more satisfactory distribution to the consumer in all parts of the country, my Noble Friend has recently announced the introduction of a scheme for distributing jam, marmalade, syrup and treacle on the basis of registrations and has indicated that this scheme may be extended to other unrationed foodstuffs if it proves successful. My Noble Friend has also announced the forthcoming rationing of cheese, with special allowances for specific classes of workers who have not the advantage of industrial canteens.
    Miss Rathbone: Has my hon. and gallant Friend considered the hardship which
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    the rationing of jam is likely to impose on households composed largely of women and children, who have not the means or the time to attend any kind of public eating place?

    FISH FRIERS.
    Mr. Higgsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) whether he is aware that the National Federation of Fish Friers consider that the allocation scheme to be adopted does not go far enough, nor does it ensure that the already established retailers will secure their supplies; and will he undertake to make the distribution equitable?
    (2) whether he is aware that the National Federation of Fish Friers consider that margins could be reduced if a compulsory scheme of price-fixing was brought into being; and will he take steps to fix prices forthwith.
    Major Lloyd George: I assume that my hon. Friend has in mind the basis of allocation and margins included in the voluntary scheme for the control of Icelandic cod, which has been drawn up by representatives of the fish trade, including the fish friers. The scheme is the result of a considerable effort among different sections of the trade and in order to give it a reasonable prospect of success my Noble Friend has agreed to embody prices suggested by the trade in a Maximum Price Order. This will, at least, put a stop to the constant rise in price, and if the distribution scheme is not operated successfully by the trade on a voluntary basis, my Noble Friend will take other steps to see that the interests of the consumer are safeguarded.

    CANTEENS.
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will arrange, in regard to food supplies, that rescue and demolition workers who have their own canteens shall be treated in the same way as industrial workers?
    Major Lloyd George: I have no reason to believe that canteens, registered as catering establishments which supply rescue and demolition workers with rationed food, are not treated in the same way as similar canteens which supply industrial workers, but I shall be glad to

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    inquire into any particular case of difficulty if my hon. Friend will send me full particulars.
    Mr. Manderasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether arrangements are being made by his Department for the supply of food required for meals in canteens for fire watchers when on duty in factories?
    Major Lloyd George: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) on 26th February, to which I have only to add that canteens registered as catering establishments should have no difficulty in obtaining the supplies of rationed food required, except perhaps meat.
    Mr. Mander: Can my hon. and gallant Friend say whether arrangements have been made in conjunction with the Home Office for the supply of special rations to fire watchers? It is quite a different thing from ordinary meals for workers.
    Major Lloyd George: The general supply position makes it very difficult indeed to grant any further concessions.

    WHEAT.
    Mr. Price(for Sir Ernest Graham- Little) asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in spite of the order just issued prohibiting the use of home-grown wheat by the producer for his livestock, it is still the policy of the Ministry to permit millers to sell 28 per cent. of the wheat they purchase to feeding-stuff merchants and patent food manufacturers?
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir. Since my Noble Friend now requires every controlled flour miller to supply national wheat meal, of a minimum extraction of 85 per cent., the amount of wheat offals available for the purposes mentioned by my hon. Friend have declined in proportion to the quantity of national wheatmeal required to meet the public demand for long-extraction flour.

  SCRAP METAL DUMPS.
  Sir Adam Maitlandasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that dumps of scrap metal are still lying
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  about in rural districts; and whether he will take steps to have this material collected forthwith?
  The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): Yes, Sir. New dumps are, of course continually being formed. The total number of uncleared dumps has been considerably reduced in recent months, and there will be still more rapid clearance with the better weather. I am looking into the question of the particular dump about which my hon. Friend has written to me.
  Sir A. Maitland: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if he is short of scrap iron, he has noticed the huge columns and girders which still remain in the ruins of buildings destroyed by enemy action?
  Sir A. Duncan: I am very happy to say that we are not short of scrap, but we have to take a long view and always keep that in mind.

  SHEEP DOGS (FOOD).
  Mr. Scottasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider increasing the present inadequate food ration for sheep dogs, in view of their importance in animal husbandry and of the extra strain which will be placed upon them during the coming months?
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. T. Williams):My right hon. Friend will be very glad to consider this suggestion in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Mr. Scott: Does my hon. Friend realise that his Reply will give very great satisfaction to farmers and shepherds, and cause much tail-wagging on the part of the other parties concerned?
  Mr. Williams: That is why I gave the Reply.

  CIVIL DEFENCE.

    DETENTIONS.
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether persons detained under Regulation i8b, who appealed to be heard before an Advisory Committee, and were then released months after the date of their

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    detention without going before an Advisory Committee, will receive compensation for wrongful detention?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): Persons detained under this Regulation are detained as a preventive measure, and every person so detained has a right of making representations both to the Secretary of State and to the Advisory Committee appointed for the purposes of the Regulation. The fact that my right hon. Friend has felt justified in certain cases in authorising release before the persons detained have had their cases reviewed by the. Advisory Committee does not imply that the original order for detention was unjustified, and does not give rise to any claim for compensation.
    Mr. Stokes: Is the Under-Secretary aware that some of these people have been detained for as much as six months, and that, on release, they have found themselves destitute? In view of the fact that in some cases it is quite clear that they have been detained by mistake, should not something be done to set them on their feet again?
    Mr. Peake: My right hon. Friend has taken the final responsibility in some cases of authorising the release of a man without waiting for him to go before an Advisory Committee, and, as a result of the action taken by my right hon. Friend in these cases, a number of persons have been released very much sooner than they would have been had they gone before the Advisory Committee.
    Mr. Silverman: Is the hon. Member aware that no one is complaining of the Secretary of State releasing people whom he has detained; that, in fact, hon. Members would rather encourage such action when he is satisfied that the detention ought not to continue? The argument is that when a mistake has been made the whole burden of the mistake ought not to rest upon the unfortunate victim, and something should be done for him.
    Mr. Peake: Perhaps my hon. Friend would produce an individual case where he alleges that a mistake has, in fact, been made.
    Mr. Graham White: Is it not a fact that the Advisory Committee has now disposed of all these cases; and is there any
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    reason why cases should not be settled at once, one way or the other?
    Mr. Peake: Yes, Sir, all the cases have had the opportunity of going before an Advisory Committee. In a number of cases the committee's finding has only recently been received by my right hon. Friend, and those cases will be decided very shortly.
    Mr. Stokesasked the Home Secretary when the hon. Member for Ipswich may expect to receive a reply to his letters of 17th and 20th February dealing with conditions in York racecourse camp; the reasons for detention and lack of information supplied to detained persons prior to their appearance before the Advisory Committee; and observations regarding certain individual cases?
    Mr. Peake: My hon. Friend's letter raised a number of points, which are being examined, and I hope shortly to be in a position to let him have a reply.
    Mr. Stokes: Can the hon. Member give some indication of what he means by "shortly"? It is now a month since I wrote to him.
    Mr. Peake: I think hon. Members generally will testify that answers to letters which they have sent to the Home Office are now being received by them more expeditiously than in the past. At the same time, my hon. Friend's letters are not quite like those of the average hon. Member, in that they raise a large number of points, both of principle and of detail.

    RESCUE PARTIES (WATERPROOF CLOTHING).
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Home Secretary what provision in waterproof clothing he has made for workers in rescue parties?
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security (Mr. Mabane): Groundsheet capes have been provided for rescue parties.
    Mr. Simmonds: Is my hon. Friend aware that these groundsheets are not suitable for rescue workers, who have to lift great weights, and that frequently they have to remove the groundsheets in the pouring rain, in order to proceed with their duties? Will he consider providing a certain number of mackintoshes for these men?
    Mr. Mabane: This matter has been carefully considered, and, for operational reasons, the groundsheet was decided upon as being the most suitable garment for rescue parties.
    Mr. Simmonds: Would my hon. Friend look into this matter again, because some of the rescue parties feel very strongly that these groundsheets were given to them merely because they were available some months ago, and that the matter should be looked into again and some new arrangement made?

  PRIVATE NURSING HOMES, LONDON (RECONSTRUCTION).
  Mr. Liddallasked the Minister of Health whether he will, as part of the physical reconstruction planning, arrange with the London County Council gradually to abolish the derelict houses in slum areas around the Baker Street district of Marylebone which have been converted for use as private nursing homes and to replan the whole private nursing home system and location in Central London?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Horsbrugh): The needs of adequate medical services will be borne in mind in the plans for physical reconstruction of large areas, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that it is too early to make any statement on the position of particular areas or particular services after the war.

BILLS PRESENTED.
  ISLE OF MAN (DETENTION) BILL,
  "to enable persons detained under powers conferred under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 1940, or the Aliens Restriction Act, 1914, to be removed to and detained in the Isle of Man," presented by Mr. Herbert Morrison, supported by the Attorney-General and Mr. Peake; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 18.]

  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL,
  "to make provision for calling up men for Civil Defence and to amend the National Service (Armed Forces) Act, 1939," presented by Mr. Bevin, supported by Mr. Herbert Morrison, Mr. Johnston, Mr. Ernest Brown, the
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  Attorney-General, Captain Crookshank, Mr. Mabane, and Mr. Assheton; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 19.]

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL,
  "to grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund, and for other purposes relating to local loans," presented by Captain Crookshank; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 20.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Land Drainage (Scotland) Bill, with Amendments.

LAND DRAINAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 21.]
Preamble
The House being met, the Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence, through indisposition, of Mr. SPEAKER from this Day's Sitting. Whereupon Sir DENNIS HERBERT, the CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, proceeded to the Table, and, after Prayers, took the Chair as DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Standing Order.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.

    MINISTRY OF WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings (Mr. Hicks): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
    I should be less than human if I did not appreciate the position that I am occupying here to-day, making a statement on behalf of my Ministry. I am aware of its importance: this is the giddiest height I have yet reached; and I am very grateful for the opportunity of making this statement. When my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal made a statement in this House on the setting-up of the Ministry of Works and Buildings on 24th October last, he gave a detailed account of the work which the Ministry would undertake. I should like to give the House, first of all, some account of the extent to which we have taken over the functions of the Office of Works, as then described, and to give some information about some new services for which we have been made responsible during the intervening months.
    First of all, we took over all the functions which belonged to the Office of Works, including their responsibilities for the erection of buildings for other Civil and Service Departments. A great deal of the work for Civil Departments which the Office of Works used to do in days of peace has, of course, been suspended now that we are faced with the necessity of limiting building operations to those which are not only urgent, but also vitally necessary for the prosecution of the war. But we have continued to press on with those works which satisfy this condition, and we have in hand a large programme of hospitals, food stores and general storage accommodation in various parts of the country. We shall also shortly be building hostels for workers in war factories; and we, of course, retain responsibility for the maintenance and adaptation, not only of all Government
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    buildings throughout the country, but for all those which it has been necessary to requisition or hire for war purposes. This work, which amounts collectively to a very large annual sum, includes the provision of air-raid shelters for Civil Service staffs and other Civil Defence measures.
    The work of providing office accommodation for the staff of all Civil Departments, although it is not a spectactular one, involves an enormous amount of detailed arrangement. Before the war, headquarter staffs of Departments were concentrated in London, except that the Scottish Department had headquarters in Edinburgh and the Welsh Board of Health in Cardiff. The war has brought great expansion in staffs, and a number of new Ministries have been created, such as Food, Home Security, Shipping, Information and Economic Warfare. A good deal of work has been regionalised, and the removal from London of headquarter staffs whose work can be performed outside it has lead to a greatly increased demand for accommodation in the Provinces. The headquarter staffs which we removed from London were removed from London in accordance with plans carefully prepared before the war and, should it be necessary, other staffs could be removed also, but we are not keeping buildings empty for this purpose. They are lent to the Services for temporary housing of personnel. Wherever practicable, new centres of work have been set up in the Provinces instead of London. Steps have been taken both in London and the Provinces to create a reserve of office accommodation with the object of ensuring that the machine of Government shall be able to function in all circumstances. At present the staff for which we are responsible for providing offices, numbers about 400,000 in London and the Provinces.
    Besides office accommodation, the Government have considerable demands for storage space which it is the duty of the Ministry of Works and Buildings to provide. Food depots, training centres, A.R.P. schools, coastguard staffs and requirements for refugees are other demands which we have to be prepared to meet at a moment's notice. The number of premises which we have under our charge at present is about 15,000, though by no means all of these are complete buildings.

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    We are paying some £4,000,000 a year in rent.
    Allied to this job of providing accommodation to meet the needs of the Government is the task of acting as a clearing house for the demands of Government Departments as a whole, including the Service Departments. This is a work which we have carried on since the outbreak of war and which, I think, deserves rather more publicity than it has had. In the last war there were frequent complaints that inefficiency and waste of time were caused by overlapping between Departments in their search for accommodation, so that two Departments might mature plans to a considerable extent on the assumption that both of them were going to make use of the same building, until they discovered that two into one would not go. The Central Register of Accommodation, which we are keeping in my Ministry, has proved an essential method in this war of ensuring co-ordination between Departments requiring accommodation. In the event of a clash of interests, Departments are brought together at a very early stage before loss of time has been incurred. Some idea of the smoothness with which the system has worked is given by the fact that the Ministerial Sub-Committee, which exists as a court of appeal, has had to be called on one occasion only. At present the Central Register receives requests for earmarking of premises from Departments at the rate of about 4,500 a week, and the total number of requests we have received since it was set up is in excess of 300,000. At present the number of live entries is nearly 150,000.
    The Ministry of Works and Buildings has also inherited from the Office of Works very considerable responsibilities in the way of providing supplies to cover Government needs. We have to design, supply and maintain furniture and office equipment for all Civil Departments, official residences, embassies, legations and certain consular buildings overseas. Equipment required for special purposes, for example, post offices, Ministry of Pensions hospitals, Ministry of Labour training centres, is also provided. In addition to this, we undertake the purchase and distribution of a wide range of general stores, including fittings and accessories for the engineering and building work of the Department and also the purchase
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    and delivery of fuel to all Government buildings in Great Britain.
    Besides this, we have for many years undertaken the supply on an agency basis for certain Civil and Service Departments, of furniture, equipment, household articles and fuel, and this centralised purchase has enabled us to secure uniformity and economy. More recently, the nature and extent of these services have been considerably increased, and among the more important additional services carried out are the provision of furniture and operational equipment for Royal Ordnance Factories on behalf of the Ministry of Supply and the supply of furniture, floor covering and certain domestic equipment to military and Air Force Commands. We also supply all equipment, except medical stores, for emergency hospitals on behalf of the Ministry of Health, and bedding, furniture and domestic equipment for evacuees and homeless civilians. Recently, we have been asked to provide bunks for Anderson shelters. Perhaps the most vital and urgent of our supply services is the central purchase of all fire-fighting equipment required by Government Departments, vital factories and the emergency fire brigade organisation of the Home Office. The expenditure on these agency services was £800,000 a year before the war; it was £10,000,000 in 1940 and will probably exceed £16,000,000 in the current year.
    As regards Ordnance Factories, it was stated that we would also be responsible for the work formerly dealt with by the Ministry of Supply, which dealt with the building of new Ordnance Factories and the approval of plans for new private factories or extensions to existing private factories. With the exception of a few cases where the swapping of horses in mid-stream would have been unjustifiable, we have taken over the construction of new factories, and we have also assumed responsibility for examining and approving in advance proposals from munition firms to extend their works to meet expanding Government requirements as we have a large programme in hand. I know that the House will forgive me if, for obvious reasons, I do not give any figures with regard to this service.
    Another important feature is the licensing of private building and the determination of priority of proposals for re-

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    building buildings damaged by air raids. First of all, I will say a word about the licensing of civil building, since this is a service which naturally exposes us to a good deal of unpopularity. Building materials, and more especially building labour, in the country, are only sufficient for a limited programme, and it became quite clear during last summer that they were being used to quite a considerable extent for private building which might not be making any contribution towards the war. It was therefore decided that a system of licensing for private building should be established under the auspices of the Works and Buildings Priority Committee. This was then an Interdepartmental Committee presided over by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour to whose excellent work I can testify. This Committee dealt with building priority questions and other general questions which arose out of the Government building programme. On the formation of the Ministry of Works and Buildings, the secretariat of the Committee became part of the Ministry, and I took over the chairmanship from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour. The Office of Works, and subsequently the Ministry of Works and Buildings, was entrusted with the task of bringing the system of licensing into operation and a Defence Regulation was made.
    The system came into operation on 7th October. Wide publicity was given at the start both in the Press and by circulars sent to architects, builders, local authorities and other interested parties. All building operations costing more than £500—which will shortly be reduced to £100—except for those paid for by a Government Department, or which consist merely of roofing repairs or first-aid repairs, require a licence from the Ministry of Works and Buildings, or in the case of local authorities and public undertakings, an authorisation from the appropriate Government Department. The Ministry of Works and Buildings has licensing offices in each of the 12 Civil Defence Regions. Our local licensing officers have fairly wide delegated powers which they are encouraged to use. Their duty is to ensure, in consultation with interested Departments, that only work which contri-
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    butes something specific to the war effort should be allowed to continue or to be started. As I said, the operation of this Regulation—making buildings subject to licence—has not increased our popularity. Actually, the applications which we have granted exceed by many times those which we have been compelled to refuse. I would ask those who have been disappointed to remember that supplies of building materials and labour are limited and that we should not be doing our job if we did not make every effort to see that they are used in the best possible way.
    I would like to say a word or two about factories and stores for Service Departments. In his statement the Lord Privy Seal accounced that we might arrange, by agreement with the Service Departments or the Ministry of Aircraft Production, to erect on their behalf new works and buildings not of a highly specialised character, such as storage or depots, or houses and buildings of an architectural nature and for the supervision of contracts for the erection of private factories or the extension of private factories required for war production. We are at present doing a number of camps for the War Office and supervising a very large aircraft factory scheme on behalf of the Ministry of Aircraft Production. Work is also under construction for the Ministry of Supply, Air Ministry and Admiralty. On the basis of the work that we have already undertaken, we shall be carrying out new works at the rate of over £1,000,000 a week.
    With regard to building priorities, it was next stated that the Minister of Works and Buildings would determine the application of the directions of the Production Council to the appropriating of particular buildings subject to appeal, if necessary, to the Council. As hon. Members are aware, the Production Council has been superseded by the Production Executive. Although my Noble Friend is not a member of the Production Executive, he has access to it and receives from it instructions as to priorities to be accorded to various component parts of the Government's building programme and the methods by which these priorities are to be applied.
    The Priority Department of the Ministry of Works and Buildings was creates at the end of October with sections to deal with the examination of proposals.

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    estimates, designs and labour statistics Since my Ministry has taken over this question of buildings priorities, we have made a radical change in the system which will, I hope, make for better results all round. Previously a priority system in the strict sense of the term had been operated, by which I mean that certain classes of work were given specially favoured treatment as regards labour and materials as compared with others. The danger of this system, as we found to our cost, is that it is almost impossible to prevent such a large number of works getting priority that the whole system defeats its object. In other words, the number of jobs that had priority labour attached to them was so great that there was hardly any priority in labour or materials. By the end of last year we found that we were trying to build considerably more than the capacity of the building industry could carry. It has been estimated that we were putting upon the market at least 30 per cent. to 40 per cent. more than the resources of the industry would be able to execute in any one year.
    We have, therefore, instituted a new system which is just coming into operation, whereby we first estimate the total quantity of building of which the resources of the country is capable in each given period. We measure this by value and, in accordance with the instructions of the Production Executive, we allocate it between Departments so that each Department knows what share of the building capacity of the country it will have at its disposal for a given period—three, four, or six months, whatever the period may be. It is the job of the Departments to arrange within their own allocation which jobs are to be speeded up, which to be stopped, and so on. We are limiting the programme so that the amount of construction work to be undertaken will be as closely as possible related to the labour and materials available, and, as far as possible, only those works which will be effective before or by the end of the summer are being proceeded with. Works requiring a longer period for their completion or new works, are only being permitted if they are of great strategic importance. Let me say here that the more efficiently Departments use their labour, the more of their programme can be completed.
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    I should like now to say a few words with regard to the control of building materials generally. Bound up with this task of arranging building priorities is the job of controlling building materials to which the Lord Privy Seal referred in his original announcement. When my Ministry was formed, timber and steel were already rationed, the control being vested in the Ministry of Supply, and this position has remained unaltered. The Ministry of Supply still control steel and timber. The Materials Committee, which is presided over by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production, gives us a block allocation of these materials for distribution among the various building Departments. As regards the remaining building materials, the basis of control is at present the willing co-operation of each industry. For the purpose, each industry is being in turn invited to turn itself into a unit for war purposes under the direction of the Controller of Building Materials. No statutory control has been established, but all are aware that it would be at once if found necessary. We have appointed Directors to deal specifically with cement, bricks, roofing and other building materials.
    The question of cement supplies has aroused considerable public interest and I hope the House will forgive me if I give them a few facts about this all-important commodity. After the shortage last summer, which was due to a number of factors of which I have already informed the House, we have taken all possible steps to see that no such thing can ever occur again. Very large stocks have been built up and we have seen to it that these are distributed in such a way that in the event of difficulties with transport, we hope cement would be available all over the country. I am aware that allegations have been made in various quarters that the output of cement is being restricted by a ring of fat, top-hatted and frock-coated gentlemen who watch their own bank balances swell while the man in the street suffers the full rigours of enemy bombing which he could have escaped had cement been available to build him an air-raid shelter. I can assure the House that there is very little truth in this grisly picture. What we need from the cement manufacturers is

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    an output of cement as great as, or possibly a little greater than, the total which the building and civil engineering industry of this country can possibly use; and that we have got. None the less, my Noble Friend is well aware that when the war ends, the capacity of the building industry will be largely increased and that when this time comes the output of cement might not be equal to the demand made upon it. He has, therefore, appointed an independent committee under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. G. Balfour), which has already held many sittings and from which we hope to get a report next month. As soon as a report is available the results of that examination can be announced either by Question and Answer or by a statement in the House.
    Bricks, too, were giving trouble last autumn. There was a serious shortage in many districts, mainly due to maldistribution and transport difficulties. This shortage has now been largely cured. The Director of Bricks is organising the industry on a national basis. Reports and statistics are becoming available for the first time, and it is hoped that the future allocation of orders and the rational control of brick works will prevent any shortage recurring. We are accumulating stocks in zones or regions at the present time, so that if transport difficulties should arise as the result of some circumstances at present unforeseen, these stocks will be available in the various regions to supply building jobs not only with bricks but with other materials as well.
    Then, on the question of roofing materials, the weight of enemy air attack on various parts of the country has been such as to produce a considerable shortage in this respect. We have, therefore, appointed a director to deal with these commodities, and arrangements have been made for a control of specialist roofing contractors so as to avoid shortage of labour which has impeded air-raid damage repair. We are also developing methods of emergency roofing repair. We have built up an organisation of specialists, both employers and operatives, to deal with this problem. In passing I ought to say with regard to the Service Departments that they have been most helpful. They have assisted us to get the necessary personnel, although it meant that a number of men had to be released from the
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    Services. This has helped us considerably in building up the organisation which is necessary to meet the demand, particularly as far as roofing materials are concerned.
    Another feature to which I am sure the House would like me to refer is the efforts which are being made to bring about standardisation in the building industry and thus to help towards greater efficiency. As an essential part in the control of materials, the Standardisation Department has been created, the object of which is to secure the maximum and most economical use of the raw materials and building materials available. The standardisation of roofing felts has, for instance, at once increased output by 25 per cent. with an actual reduction in the raw materials required. We shall follow this policy through every field of work and type of material. A good deal has been done, but there is plenty more to do, and this section of the Ministry, like every other section, is hard at work.
    In passing, I can assure the House that every one at the Ministry of Works and Buildings is engaged full time on his job. Among other major steps, we are hoping drastically to reduce the number of sizes of bricks manufactured in the country. At present there are 16 or 17 different sizes. We hope to be able to standardise bricks so as to make bricks available equally for the North and the South. Some of my hon. Friends are probably aware of the many different sizes of bricks now manufactured. My hon. Friend the Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) worked at brick-making in his early boyhood—so I understand from his life-story. I do not know what size bricks he was engaged in making, but he would appreciate the fact that there are variations in size. We think that is all wrong and ought to be rectified at the earliest possible moment. Extensive consultations on this subject have already taken place and a great measure of agreement has been arrived at, and my Noble Friend expects shortly to be able to make a statement on the subject.
    Mr. Mathers: Will these standardised bricks be known as "Hicks bricks"?
    Mr. Hicks: I do not know what name will be applied to them. I have had some experience in connection with this

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    matter and as an illustration of the existing state of affairs I would mention one actual case. One particular type of bricks was being used on a job in a certain part of the country. The job was brought to a standstill because there was not a sufficient supply of bricks of a particular type, yet in an adjacent neighbourhood there were at least 500,000 bricks available which could have been put into that Job. But, because the sizes did not properly interlock, the work had to be interrupted.
    With the exception of the large question of reconstruction, I have, I think, now covered all the points which arise out of the Lord Privy Seal's statement, and I would like to go on to give the House some account of the further steps which we have taken to meet the changing situation. One of the difficulties which faces us in getting through the vast programme of building with which we are dealing at present is the extent, scope and complexity of the building industry. I have been in the building industry for nearly 50 years and can claim to know something about it. It is one of the, most important industries in the country and yet until the appointment of my Noble Friend as Minister of Works and Buildings there was no Minister specifically charged with the duty of seeing to its efficiency and welfare. Before then a number of building departments on the Works and Buildings Priority Committee did this job jointly. I would be the last to underrate the value of what they did, but I think it is, as far as practicable and possible, a job for one Minister to have charge of and one Department to deal with.
    I do not think enough has been said about the work which building trade operatives are doing for their country at the present time. We have all read of and admired what has been done by munition workers, police, Civil Defence and the Fighting Services. I do not mention Members of Parliament—they can speak for themselves. None of these could get on without bricklayers, carpenters, masons and the rest, to put up buildings for them to work in, or factories where their weapons are to be made. The building industry has a fine tradition dating back over centuries, and it is my belief that the British craftsman of to-day is capable of work every bit as
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    good as his predecessors who built our great cathedrals and public buildings. The building or civil engineering worker of to-day is faced with sterner tasks than his predecessors, particularly at the present time. They built churches and cathedrals; he must build munition factories. They laid out parks and squares; he must lay out runways in aerodromes.
    It is to the problem of how to guide and assist the building industry in performing this great task which the country expects of them, that my Noble Friend and I have given our close attention— not casual attention, but deep and concentrated thought. At this stage I should like to pay tribute to the organisation, both of employers and workers, and to the professional bodies for the great assistance they have given us. I am not sure that the House realises what a great value it is to the country at the present time to have labour organised and helpful. But our load is becoming heavier, and we have fewer men to bear it; this means that every man's work must be organised with the maximum of efficiency if he is to do what is expected of him. My Ministry will work in understanding and co-operation with the great industry. Therefore, my Noble Friend and I, with my Right Hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, are at present in close consultation with the industry, discussing proposals which I hope it may be possible to announce in the House before very long. As the basis of these proposals, we are trying to get a complete census of building capacity, and the aim of the proposals will be to increase efficiency, particularly by avoiding senseless competition between firms for work and for labour. We hope also to bring in the smaller builders for work which they can handle. I should like to give the House fuller details of what we are planning, but I think it will be agreed that we should not bring the dish out of the oven until it has been cooked or bad digestion might follow.
    Next I should like to give some account of what we have done by way of first-aid repairs, both to houses and factories. When the Government were making their plans for dealing with air raids in the days before the war, it was decided that local authorities, under the direction of the Ministry of Health, should be responsible for what came to be known as

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    "first-aid repairs" to houses. The coming of the "blitz" proved that insufficient account had been taken of the fact that modern aerial bombardment makes temporarily uninhabitable a vastly greater number of houses than it actually destroys. The result was, after a few weeks of '' blitz '' that a number of local authorities in the Metropolitan area found themselves overwhelmed with repair work. My Noble Friend, therefore, made arrangements, with the active and willing co-operation of the War Office and Ministry of Labour, for the withdrawal from the Army of a number of building trade operatives, who would be formed into a mobile corps of house repairers, working directly under the Ministry of Works and Buildings. While I am speaking a squad is on its way to Scotland to give assistance in temporary first-aid repairs to houses which have been bombed there. If a local authority wants help, it applies to the Ministry of Health, which in turn asks us to take over part of the field of work. We have at present about 3,000 men working in London and upwards of 1,000 in provincial towns. These men are employed strictly in accordance with the rules of the building trade, with the exception that they are guaranteed a 44-hour week and paid fares home once every six months during their period of work. They are also paid subsistence allowance where they are compelled to maintain two homes. We do not discharge these men, except for misconduct, but, if we no longer require their services, they are recalled to the Army. The men started arriving early in December, and tools and equipment were provided for them. A number of depots were set up for the London area, and during the last three months we have been hard at it. We have thus a select corps of shock troops which can be rushed in at any point where the enemy attack becomes too much for the first-aid repair organisation of the local authority.
    So much for houses. For the repair of factories, there has been in existence for some time an excellent organisation which was worked out at the Ministry of Aircraft Production by the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. Bennett). With a view to helping this organisation, we have set up a Department of Emergency Repairs. We are establishing a nation-
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    wide organisation with emergency works officers in all important target towns and areas which are controlled by several assistant directors covering one or more Civil Defence Regions. These officers are highly qualified men whose duties are to give technical advice to the local reconstruction panels of the Emergency Services Organisation, and to war factories and others whose work is of national importance. They have also studied all available sources of supply of materials in large demand after air attack, and my Ministry will arrange, in conjunction with the Ministry if Labour, for an adequate supply of labour for first-aid repairs. They direct the use of any military units which may be brought in to assist and organise the supply and release of materials from outside sources, and ensure the most economical use in both materials and man-power.
    The organisation, if required, is at the disposal of local authorities and other Departments. In connection with this organisation, we are making use of an arrangement which was made at the outbreak of war, whereby what was then the Office of Works set up dumps of building materials in target towns for air-raid repair. These are being extended, and arrangements are being made for the creation of strategic dumps, located so as to be able to serve more than one of the great industrial areas of the country. Materials will be released and labour allocated in accordance with priorities decided by the Regional Commissioners as between civil and war factory requirements, and by the local reconstruction panels and area officers of the Supply Ministries as between one war factory and another. As part of this scheme, lists of architects, surveyors and engineers are being prepared, who will be instantly available to the emergency works officers of my Ministry, to assist in giving technical advice and watching repair work through to completion with a view to ensuring that it is done in the most rapid and economical way.
    Mr. Cary: Will men be taken away from important Government work to do these emergency repairs?
    Mr. Hicks: It depends whether the men will be able to continue their important Government work unless the emergency repairs are put in hand. Where men

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    have been taken away from other work for a temporary period to give assistance in repairs they will be returned. This section of the Ministry has only been in existence a short time, but a number of appointments have been made, and the organisation is rapidly taking shape. It has already been in operation in certain areas and is proving to be of considerable assistance. We have undertaken to be responsible for selecting, sorting and disposing of all salvaged building material.
    Mr. Silkin: Will the hon. Gentleman explain this? Does he mean that his Ministry will take over from the debris disposal authorities the waste and salvaged material which they collect?
    Mr. Hicks: That is what we are hoping.
    Mr. Thorne (Plaistow): Does it apply to private property?
    Mr. Hicks: Yes. We have established a statistical department, which in the first instance collects facts, figures and data of this great, widely ramified industry. The industry can do with detailed examination, and everyone will be the better for it.
    I have left the subject of reconstruction until the end because I feel that we should deal with immediate issues first before turning our thoughts towards the time after the war to which we are all looking forward, but which we must not allow to distract our gaze from the more immediate and urgent problems. As hon. Members may be aware, my Noble Friend recently gave an account, in another place, of the progress which we have so far achieved, and I will not go over again in detail ground which he then covered. Broadly, the functions which the Minister of Works and Buildings will undertake in connection with reconstruction have emerged as part of a general framework of post-war planning, which will be under the general control of my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio, and we have labelled this group "The Physical Reconstruction of Town and Country." We have to remember all the time when we are dealing with this vast and complicated subject, that the results of our deliberations have to emerge some time in the future in the shape of bricks and mortar, streets and terraces, towns and cities. But as we are, or try to be, first and foremost a practical Department, we have to think of the practical details and difficulties first. All
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    of us must have thought, when looking upon the results of the brutal and savage attack to which our towns have been subjected and to which for some time to come may continue to be subjected, that here in the midst of destruction is an opportunity such as never occurred before of making a bold and challenging start. So far, well and good; but as soon as we begin to examine the problem more closely difficulties begin to show their heads and the best way of dealing with the problem is to hunt out these difficulties and run them down. It is with this end in view that my Noble Friend has appointed a special expert committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Uthwatt, to investigate compensation and betterment problems and the difficulties which may arise from speculation in land values. I informed the House of the appointment of this committee on 29th January.
    The problems to which we hope this Committee will offer some solution are ones which go right to the root of our economic life, and I know that some quarters of the House hold strong views about them. These I would ask not to press me too closely at present. We cannot solve these difficulties in a few weeks, and for that reason any answers which we are able to give to-day are likely to be uninformative or premature. As a further step in the direction of finding out the difficulties which lie before us and in order to surmount them, my Noble Friend has had test surveys made in co-operation with the local authorities in certain heavily damaged areas. We have the first reports now; and when they are fully examined we shall be in a better position to see exactly what legislative and administrative changes may be necessary to enable redevelopment to be undertaken. In this work we are receiving the full and active co-operation of the other Departments concerned. A wise man once remarked that genius was an infinite capacity for picking other people's brains, and this is at present what we are trying to do. In particular we have invited to assist us a Consultative Panel, consisting of some of the best-known experts on the subjects with which we have to deal, and we are steadily recruiting a small nucleus staff inside the Ministry.
    I have tried to give the House some picture of how the Ministry is tackling its problems, present and future. Naturally,

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    it is the present to which we must devote our full energies, but I do not think on that account that there should be any criticism if we spend a little of our time thinking ahead. I think it would be one of the greatest incentives we could have to put our best foot foremost in the march to victory if we could have before us an ever-clarifying picture of the Britain which we want to build up after this struggle and the time when we shall have a great and victorious people worthily housed. If we can achieve this ideal it will be our proud boast that after beating the most powerful enemy from without which has ever come against us, we have gone on to win an ever greater victory at home.
    Mr. Denman: The hon. Gentleman asserted that his function was the physical reconstruction of damaged areas. Will he make it clear that that includes planning?
    Mr. Hicks: Yes.
    Mr. Lawson: The House very much appreciates the thorough review which the Parliamentary Secretary has given it, particularly the detailed explanation of the functions of his Department, and it appreciates that the business of the Minister, of himself and of the Department is to deal with immediate things. But, as he himself appreciated before he closed his remarks, what the Department does to-day and during the war will to a great extent affect what happens after the war. I gather that the functions of the Department cover practically the whole range of building, some of it to be done directly on behalf of Departments, but even private buildings to be under the control of the Ministry of Works. But there is one outstanding exception to that arrangement, and that is that the Defence Departments, as far as specialised work is concerned, are outside the control of the Ministry of Works. I know that there has to be some discussion between the Ministry of Works and the Defence Departments as to what are specialised works. One quite understands that, if the War Office, for instance, is building fortifications, generally speaking that would be specialised work, for which they have specialised knowledge. Then there are the Air Ministry and stores for the Navy. But I
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    suggest that even these Defence Departments ought not to be allowed to go where they like, building where they like, even with their specialised work, unless there has been very close collaboration and all the social implications of their action have been taken into consideration. I realised this at once when the Lord Privy Seal made his statement, for the simple reason that the Defence Departments have been the biggest sinners in the lack of planning and in placing works where they ought not to be. Those of us who have been in the Special Areas for years and have looked at this thing have seen it more pointedly than a good many other people. We saw it, for instance, before the agricultural element began to feel the weight of it. We had an instance in White Waltham, where the Air Ministry proposed to build a shadow factory in an area of the best agricultural land in the country. They were going to do it without any regard to the fact that there were no houses in that area, no schools, and practically no services.
    Mr. McGhee: It is still going on.
    Mr. Lawson: I agree, but I am pointing the moral by this particular case. There was to be a population at this place of about 20,000, school buildings and all kinds of services would have had to be provided, and it was only because the agricultural elements in the House joined with the representatives of the industrial areas in the North that we were able to stop that outrage upon the social life of the country. It has been going on on a wide scale, and it is going on still. That is why I say that the Ministry of Works ought not to accept, merely because the Defence Services are doing a great work which we all appreciate, the mandate laid down by these Departments that they are specialised works and must be placed in certain parts of the country. What the Ministry of Supply, the Ministry of Works and the Defence Departments decide in this matter to some extent decides the trend of the population in the future. Communities grow up and have to be looked after, and I say that this is not merely a matter of building immediately but a matter of deciding what is to be the future shape of this country.
    I want to make another point, which I think is important. It looks as though the

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    contracting side of the Ministry's work is getting into a few hands and into the hands of monopolists. It also looks as though those monopolists are financiers. I would ask the Ministry to have a proper look at that matter. There is a good deal of ill-feeling and, I think, righteous indignation among highly experienced contractors about the fact that financial companies can be formed and, by using the names of certain contracting companies, get tenders and great orders. In the long run the financiers have to go to the actual men who are capable of doing the work and ask for their material, plant and equipment. One case is that of the Bernard Sunley Company. They were in financial difficulties before the war, and financiers took them over. They had an aerodrome to build, but they had not sufficient equipment. They tried to use the powers at their disposal to get lorries and excavators from certain people who, when they knew the work was in the national interest, were willing to lend the equipment, but then they found who the company were, and it was a horse of another colour. Then there is Earth Movers, Limited, which has now become Bowmakers.
    I want to warn the Ministry that if they are not careful, they will find themselves in the hands of monopolists who are not familiar with the contracting business. I will not say anything about material except that my hon. Friend was right when he said that it was not a question in the cement world of fat gentlemen in top hats finding great satisfaction that they were getting profits by taking no notice of the people above. As a rule some of these people are rather slim than fat, but there they are, and you cannot with regard to the immediate needs of the nation, and particularly with regard to the work that has to be done in the future, allow equipment and material to get into the hands of monopolists so that they can use them in order to get their full price and perhaps hinder development.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Minister without Portfolio is to speak at the end of this Debate, because his Department is closely interwoven with the Ministry of Works. In the two years before the war there sat a great Royal Commission which was a kind of inquest upon the state of the nation socially and economically. That was the Royal Commission on the Distribution of Population, and its business was
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    to inquire into the geographical distribution of the population, its probable direction in future, the social, economic or strategical disadvantages arising from the concentration of industries or of the industrial population in large towns. The evidence given before that Commission covered a wide range. If the war had not broken out before they reported, their findings would have been among the most important matters of discussion and controversy in this nation. As a matter of fact, their Report was a Domesday Book of social and economic conditions in this country. Every Department gave valuable evidence before the Commission.
    I will not go into the findings of the Commission except to say that every member of it agreed that there ought to be a central planning authority in the country. The majority, I believe, suggested that the authority should be an advisory body, but a minority proposed that it should have executive functions. Is there anybody now who has any doubt, in the light of our experience, that we need that authority and that it should have power to act? Local authorities have been doing a good deal of planning themselves, and under the Town Planning Act a few of them have done extremely well, but a good many have simply passed resolutions without implementing them. All of them, or at least most of them, had their eye on the fact that they not only wanted to provide congenial living conditions for their people but wanted to attract industry to their areas.
    I do not know whether the Commission meant to be humorous in their Report, but they pointed out that, totalling up the number of people for which the local authorities were planning, they found that they had planned for a population of no fewer than 291,000,000. Each area was looking to its immediate interests. There were differences between the Ministry of Agriculture and some of the planning authorities as to whether we should have what is called fringe building or distribute the population through the country. One thing did stand out, that whatever virtue there was in whatever town planning authorities had done, they had not had the slightest regard to the national interests as regards planning the nation as a whole, for example, saving agricultural land or directing certain industries to places where they should be located,

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    so far as it is possible to regulate them. In some cases their work had been actually adverse to the general principle of planning. For one thing, there was no control.
    I was pleased to hear my hon. Friend make a statement about the appointment of the Uthwatt Committee. The report of the Royal Commission had something to say upon the exploitation of land values, and suggested what was pretty much a development commission. Although it is finished for the moment, I hope that both Ministers will make up their minds that there is to be no more ribbon-building in this country. I have spent a great part of my life in colliery villages and, in fact, spent half my life in a colliery house. Critical things have been said about some of these colliery villages and rightly so, and bitter things have been said about them by colliers, but I tell the House that I would rather live in a colliery area than in one of these ribbon-built areas. One can at least get away from a colliery area, get into the fields, get among the woods and forget it for a short time; but who can forget the Great West Road, that monstrosity of our present-day social life? I hope there will be an end of that business once and for all. What hypocrisy there was when this House put through the ribbon-building Act. Everybody knew that the local authorities, the county councils, could not give the necessary compensation. The Act was meant to be a kind of moral gesture. I think the only effect of it was to expedite the race along the roads, and if it had not been for the war, we should hardly have been able to see a field by now.
    It may be the business of the Minister without Portfolio, but I hope that some Ministry is keeping a register of the woods which are being destroyed as a result of the demand for timber. In some industrial areas, sometimes through the wisdom of the local authority, sometimes because landlords had good sense, woods have been left here and there, and they break the harshness of those areas. I spent a great part of my life in an area in which there were no woods. Then it happened that I moved into another mining area where there were fringes of woods. They broke the harsh effect of the long lines of dull houses, sometimes
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    they hid the pit-head gear. Boys and girls and men and women could go into the woods in the Spring, see a few flowers, and watch for the blue-bells coming. I saw a wood destroyed in my immediate neighbourhood. I remember a little boy of 10 years of age watching, as beech trees were being cut down. Why they should cut down beech trees I do not know, because the wood is not hard. The boy was almost in tears, and he said: "They are destroying our woods, Mr. Lawson."
    After the destruction of timber all round this country during the last war, very few of the places affected were re-planted. We reafforested on a very limited scale. I remember the Comission suggesting that we should plant 100,000 acres a year. Then came the axe, and it was decided to plant only 10,000 acres a year. In 1935 we were told by the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye (Sir G Courthope), who sits here as head of the Forestry Commission, that we had to grow the proper seed. In 1931 no fewer than 50,000,000 saplings were destroyed. I want the Departments responsible for rebuilding to take stock of the places where timber has been destroyed. In whatever way we plan to rebuild in future, let us give the youngsters some trees. Let us give them some of the amenities. Let us get away from the idea that trees are only for some gentlemen's parks; let us have regard to the deeper spiritual needs of our people.
    There is the question of drainage. It was discovered that there is no central drainage system in this country, and no central water authority. I was present at a discussion some months ago, I will not give details of it, but it was of great importance to the area concerned and to the nation. Representatives of the electricity authority were asked what reserves they had in hand for use if destruction came to certain land. They said they were all right because the Central Electricity Board had promised to arrange to supply what was needed. We turned to those responsible for water supply in the area, and asked, "What is the position with regard to your reserves?" They said, "I am sorry, but there is no central water board." The reserves were there, but it was clear that centralisation in this respect would be of very great value indeed in the hour of the nation's need. There certainly needs to be consideration of a central authority for drainage.

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    A great deal of discussion has taken place about the aesthetic side of building in the future. No one undervalues that matter, and I sometimes think it is a very cynical comment upon modern civilisation that we have to go back to the buildings of 1,000 years ago for anything of real grace and beauty. [Interruption.] I am not ignoring the fact that attempts have recently been made to alter this position, but the results are prominent by their exceptional character.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: Does the hon. Gentleman, with a great deal of whose speech I agree, entirely ignore the glories of the 18th century? Does he wipe out Bath?
    Mr. Lawson: I was well on in my teens before I saw a beautiful building. Then I emerged, like one from a far journey, to see Durham Cathedral. I remember, too, when I had the privilege of a little education, how overwhelmed I was by the High in Oxford. The beauties of 18th century architecture are limited to certain areas. The great bulk of the working-class population of this country are utterly poverty-stricken in respect of architecture of any beauty at all. They set: endless miles of squalid streets. There are whole towns without a building of which we might be proud. I agree with those who talk about the need to build beautiful and gracious buildings, but I hope they will bear in mind that such rebuilding should not be limited to certain parts of the country, such as older areas that have hitherto had the privilege of possessing great architecture. Regard must be paid to the people who do the rough and ready work of the country and who have hitherto been starved of good architecture.
    In this age of wealth, which is so great that we have had to destroy great masses of it, it is remarkable that we have produced hardly anything worth while in the realm of architecture. I hope that landlords will not be allowed to make profit out of the coming times. If you are to prevent exploitation in this respect, I do not see any way out of it but by frankly and simply nationalising the land. Whatever the Government do, I hope no profit-making will be allowed to take place out of the nation's need in the days to come. We have heard a lot from Germany about wanting more room, but no one wants
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    more room than do the people of England. The report of the Royal Commission on the Distribution of Population pointed out the comparison of the population of Europe per square mile. Belgium had a population of 702 people per square mile, France 197, Germany 353, Italy 360, and Great Britain 518. I believe that the population per square mile in England alone was 766, as a matter of fact.
    The right hon. Gentleman has a very difficult task in trying to shape the community of the future and spreading it out over the country. There may have to be some fringe building and also some dispersal, with due regard to the needs of agriculture. I do not want to see Britain all straight lines. I want to see the rural areas preserved, as far as possible, on the lines of those old lanes in England, Scot-land and Wales. The personality of a country is as important as the personality of its people. We need playgrounds, preserved areas of mountain and fell, in order that the industrial population may find recuperation.
    I do not wish to take up too much time, but here is the economic side of the matter. I do not envy the right Hon. Gentleman nor the Government their jobs, but I would like to point out that after the last war this country did some stupid things. Take my own industry. After bitter struggles and much suffering in the mining industry, right up to 1939, the Government of the country have been driven back stage by stage to do the very things that they were asked to do after the last war. It has been my lot recently to go very closely into the history of this matter. It is a remarkable fact that personal and capitalist interests resisted not only what they have had to accept but what they asked for as the result of their own doings. I do not see any way of avoiding the situation in which the nation owns—let it be in what form it likes—the land and the great industries and takes some very strong control over finance. This is the first of our Debates, and I think it is a tribute to the House and to the country that when we are fighting for our lives we should try to look into the future and make our contribution towards deciding what things are to going to be.
    To-day we live in a very exalted frame of mind. We are not a people who wear our hearts upon our sleeves, but I think

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    that if the hearts of the people in this country—rich and poor, in cottage and palace—could be read, there would be found there a sense of faith and duty, and a capacity for sacrifice almost unparalleled in the world's history. But some of us in some areas in the years since the last war have gone through woe and bitterness. We have seen neighbours, workmates, friends and old schoolmates go to pieces before our eyes. We have felt neglected and bitter at times. There is all the danger in this war of the development of more Special Areas. The experience which we have had during the last 20 years ought to be of service to us in teaching us to avoid the sufferings and bitterness of those years. I sometimes think that it is a marvellous thing that in those very areas, somehow or other, by a veritable miracle, the sense' of faith and loyalty to the nation and a belief in things that matter have survived. If we can maintain our present mood and prosecute peace in the same spirit of adventure and determination as we are prosecuting this war, there is no problem over which we cannot triumph, and we can give the world in the future as we are giving it today a story of achievement which will be worthy of these days of our testing. If we have the same courage, vision and capacity for sacrifice in the days to come as we have now, I think that we can give the world a lesson and something to wonder at for centuries to come.
    Sir Percy Harris: I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend, whom I have now known for a good many years, on his most interesting survey of the activities of his Department. If he would allow me to say so, his is a case of poacher turned gamekeeper. I remember on one occasion going with him in critical attitude as an independent Member to see certain Ministers and to press their Departments into greater activity. Now he has the opportunity to carry out the work himself. No one is more qualified. During his half-century's experience in the building industry he has always taken a wide view of the industry, and has stood up not only for the operatives but the architects and engineers. The Noble Lord who presides over his Department is lucky to have a practical man with a wide knowledge to represent him in this House of Commons.
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    I was interested in many of the details he told us of the activities of his Department. I was particularly pleased by his reference to the shock salvage workers who are to go down to the destroyed areas and help the local authorities. He has many difficult tasks which want tact and wise handling, particularly the difficult task of deciding on priorities. I am satisfied that as an old politician and an old trade union leader he will show impartiality and wisdom in discharging that part of his work. I would like to see his Department even more glorified, and to see the new Ministry of Works and Buildings working for all the Service Departments. In doing contract work, the Admiralty, the War Office, the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Supply, instead of starting their own sections and engaging emergency staffs, would be much wiser to employ the Ministry of Works and Buildings to carry out all their building work. The old Office of Works—if I may be allowed to call it by its former name—has accumulated knowledge and experience; it has competent experts, and I believe that many of the scandals connected with some of the building work which has been improvised under the most difficult circumstances would have been' avoided if it had been allowed to carry out the work. I have myself seen excellent work done by the Ministry for the Admiralty in the design and construction of camps, and this shows that it would be wiser to make this the building Department for all Services except under exceptional conditions. I am speaking now as a member of the Select Committee which has issued voluminous reports on all kinds of contract work. My hon. Friend, in his excellent speech, made some reference to the big contractors who are carrying out some of the jobs, but if we had one Department coordinating the whole of the building effort, I believe that not only would these scandals be prevented, but there would be greater efficiency, and competition for labour and material would be avoided. Further, there would be more planning in the location of camps and in the creation of new factories.
    I know that a great number of hon. Members are anxious to speak, and I believe that almost every Member present is capable of making a contribution if he has the opportunity, and so for a few moments I wish to concentrate on the very difficult problem of reconstruction which we shall have to face when those

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    happy days come—I am afraid we shall have to wait some time for them—when peace is declared. We can learn from the experience of the last post-war years. I was a Member of this House during the last war, and directly afterwards I was a member of a great local authority. We had great expectations. We were going to make this a land fit for heroes, and those were not merely empty words; we really believed it. But what disappointments. My hon. Friend painted a very lurid picture of some of the tragedies of ribbon development and so on. I remember the tremendous difficulties we had. There was a terriffic housing shortage. For four years during the last war building had stopped, and from the ordinary wastage, and various other causes, there was a house famine. The whole country was determined to build a new and pleasant land, but when we began to get to work we found a shortage of everything—of skilled labour and of material, as my right hon. Friend will remember, because he was then very active in the building industry. We could not get bricklayers, joiners or plasterers; in the same way, there was a shortage of bricks and tiles. We even had to import tiles from abroad. There was a shortage of light castings and inevitably of timber as well.
    All these things will recur, unless very great foresight is shown when we begin reconstruction after this war. The prices of houses soared up, and you can still see to-day working-class houses which cost £1,250 or £1,300 each, and not too well built at that. We tried all sorts of substitutes; we tried building timber houses, concrete houses, steel houses—all kinds of fantastic houses—but when it came down to bedrock we found that on the whole, except in certain areas like the Cotswolds, where stone is available, no real, comfortable substitute for British brick houses could be found.
    I am glad the hon. Gentleman is in his present position, because he is no idle dreamer, but a realist of practical experience. I hope he will work out his plans now for the supply of material and the necessary skilled labour. Perhaps in some ways he is more fortunate, because to-day more building is going on, and there is not likely to be the same diversion of skilled labour to other industries
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    during this war as there was before. But undoubtedly connected with the problem is the question of local government and the purchase of land. We in London had big ideas. I remember that we bought some 3,000 acres, now entirely built over, at that delectable spot called Becontree. We had large views, and we wanted to create there a new town with all the amenities of local government and variety of development, but we found ourselves up against a brick wall. We were not allowed to have a local authority; we had to divide responsibility for all our services between three local authorities—Ilford, Barking and Dagenham. We had all sorts of difficulties which held up our development, difficulties of water supply, drainage and education. We had vision and understanding of the problem, and if Parliament had authorised the setting-up of a brand new local authority for the area, we should have had proper provision for industries and factories on garden-city lines. As it was, when the first few houses were built, there were the homes, but there was nothing for the people living in them to do. There was no employment, and people had to pay very high fares to go into the City of London to get work. In many cases they were unable to get employment at all. It was only an accident that Ford brought his works down to that particular area, thus providing the necessary employment. It was almost a miracle when that happened, and if it had not, we might have had Becontree as a distressed area.
    I want to plead with my hon. Friend to learn from experience and to try to avoid some of the mistakes made after the last war. The problem after this war will be considerably greater and perhaps more difficult, because, in addition to the stop-page of house building, we have colossal air-raid damage done by the enemy. I do not think we can yet visualise all that destruction. Whole streets have been destroyed, and in addition to providing the normal number of additional houses, we shall have to rehouse the people whose homes have been razed to the ground. A solution may be found for all this appalling suffering caused by the "Blitz," for it may compel us to make bolder plans for reconstruction. Also, it has been a revelation, to many people who have visited these areas, of the conditions under which people live. We

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    have talked a lot ever since the last war about slum clearance. Nothing has so much emphasised the necessity for reconstruction of a large part of the towns as the visits which the Prime Minister and other Ministers have paid to these desolated areas after air raids. It is a serious thing to say, but we have almost felt in connection with those areas that it was a blessing in disguise that buildings that were not worth preserving should have been demolished, and that Hitler had done a useful piece of work in destroying such buildings.
    Mr. Hannah: Do you include Coventry Cathedral?
    Sir P. Harris: No—I assume that the hon. Gentleman has some intelligence—I was referring to buildings that were not worth preserving. Coventry Cathedral was worth preserving. I am not defending the brutal acts of the arch-enemy of mankind, Herr Hitler; but I was making the point that some of that destruction was useful if it brought home to the country—as I hope it does to the hon. Gentleman—the necessity for rebuilding on bold lines. The hon. Gentleman who spoke before me showed great wisdom and understanding of the need for town planning. A tremendous opportunity was missed in the seventeenth century, after the Great Fire. Wren saw the need for bold planning, but the City fathers and private interests made it impossible for him to carry out his schemes. You will have those vested interests at work again. Let us not under-estimate the difficulties. It is not always a matter of selfishness or of desire for personal gain. It may surprise hon. Members to know that people are attached to their own boroughs, and even to their own streets, When I have come forward with schemes to reconstruct my own constituency, people have said, "Why pull down my house? I have lived in it all my life; my father lived there before me, and my grandfather. Why pull down our streets? "It is not going to be easy, with the best will in the world, and even with the best system of land taxation, to make people see why their streets should be swept away, and nice, well-planned streets put in their place. Then there is the question of finance. I am glad that the Minister has had the vision to appoint this committee, under a very capable
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    judge. I hope that their terms of reference will not be narrow, and that it will include such matters as rating.
    If you are to have replanning, there must be no limit to the size and scope of your conception. It must not be limited by either borough or county boundaries. That applies particularly to London. We have to consider not merely the housing problem, but the industrial question. I was glad that my hon. Friend referred to the Royal Commission on the Location of Industry. There is a danger of their report being pigeon-holed. I hope that the Ministry will keep that most inspiring volume constantly before them. Housing must be considered not as an isolated question, but as part of the industrial and social life of the country, and linked up with the question of transport. It is as much a part of industry now as are the wages paid. In Greater London a large number of people have always worked in and lived out, but in recent years we have seen the reverse, with a great number working out and living in. Transport makes a tremendous addition to the cost of living, and then there is the question of traffic congestion and delay. Workers have to strap-hang every morning on their way to work, and, after an exhausting day, they have to strap-hang again going home at night. I sometimes marvel at the patience of the people.
    In any new conception of town planning, we have to consider all these problems—where the industry ought to be, and how the people engaged in it may go to and from their employment. If we were starting to envisage a new land we might have new conceptions of our industrial and economic life. However, we can improve our conditions. We can endeavour to reduce the congestion in the centre. In my view the only way to do that is to reduce the number of people per acre. I hope that my hon. Friend will not be persuaded by the arguments of some architects in favour of skyscraper building-up instead of spreading-out. That is one of the dangers we have to be very careful about. I am a land taxer myself, but we want to be careful to avoid putting up these 60 or 70-storey buildings, which will create congestion around them.
    Mr. Stokes: Land taxation would have exactly the reverse effect.
    Sir P. Harris: I hope that is so. But I hope that we shall not be too much attracted by American standards and American ideals.
    Mr. Stokes: The method of taxation in New York is to impose a tax on the improvement, as well as on the land; and that is why they have skyscrapers in the centre.
    Sir P. Harris: I hope that the Committee will allow my hon. Friend to come before them, and to discuss those points. I have, for a great number of years, been in favour of the satellite town and the garden suburb. I should like to see my borough, with which I have been associated for many years, have a colony 30 miles out, with a new social life. Just as Greek cities had their colonies in ancient days, so, under the aegis of the hon. Gentleman's Department, there should be a town-planning department, arranging for the creation of these garden suburbs. We have towns like Port Sunlight and Letchworth, which, on the whole, we can say after 30 years, have justified their existence. But if we are to do these things it will be no light task. We must have not only experts, but bold and wise leadership. The hon. Gentleman very rightly inferred that the test of statesmanship is to pick other people's brains. He has plenty of experts ready to give their advice, but there must be one directing genius at the head. There must be a supreme town-planning authority, with adequate powers.
    I hesitate to recommend the creation of another Government Department. We have too many Departments and too many Ministers, and sometimes, if you have a multiplicity of counsel, it leads to confusion. I would be content for the new building Department to become the town-planning authority. It is not a town-planning authority now; the Minister of Health is really the authority. But whoever it is, let it be one authority. Let there be a Minister with adequate powers to override local authorities and to take a national view of this problem, so that when peace comes we can really make this attempt a success instead of a failure as was the case after the last war, and then, with the interesting combination of a distinguished engineer and a practical builder, we should be able to show some very fine results after the war is over.
    Mr. Hutchinson: That part of the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to which I think the House probably listened with the greatest interest was the final passage, in which he gave us some indication of the steps which his Department is taking to deal with the problems of reconstruction which are likely to arise after the war. Although, as my hon. Friend very rightly said, a wise cook does not bring the dish out of the oven before it is cooked, still I think the House would wish that my hon. Friend's oven should be that type of oven which has a little window in it, so that we can peep through from time to time and see how the cooking is going on.
    I listened to the excellent account which my hon. Friend gave to the House of all the things that he is doing, of the committees that are being set up, the consultative and the advisory panels of experts who have been brought in from all sorts of places to express their views, but I could not help feeling that there is a danger that my hon. Friend's Department will suffer the same fate that has overcome similar Departments in the past, and, in the end, lose itself in a complete morass of committees and experts. It is a real danger—one has seen it happen in the past—and I cannot help feeling that it is a danger against which my hon. Friend must be very careful to safeguard himself. Indeed, he stands, at the very outset of his task, in the difficulty that there is at present, as I understand the position—the House will forgive me as I have been a little out of touch with these matters recently—a great danger that the functions of his Ministry may become confused with those of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister without Portfolio. When one comes to explore his tasks one finds that the Minister of Health is also concerned, and the more one looks into it the more one carries away the impression that, in all the mass of overlapping which looks like taking place, there is a very great danger that the main function of my hon. Friend's Department is going to be lost.
    The Parliamentary Secretary rightly said that this was not a time when energies which ought to be devoted to the prosecution of the war should be devoted to the consideration of problems which will arise when the war is over. Up to a point, we shall all agree with that; but

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    only up to a point, because my hon. Friend has a very good opportunity now of considering, without the need for immediate action, these problems of reconstruction which the country will have to face when the war is over. I would remind him that it is a very great advantage to have an opportunity of considering these matters free from the necessity for immediate action which has so often intervened and promoted ill-considered and hasty action in matters of this nature in the past. He can sit back in comparative comfort and consider at his leisure many of these problems, which, in past time, have had to be considered under the pressure of urgent necessity.
    Let me say a word about the question of land speculation. In all these questions of town planning, of building, of reconstruction and matters of that sort, questions of land speculation and the activities of the undesirable type of speculator loom very large. I am very glad that my hon. Friend's Department has set up a committee with a very learned and experienced judge as chairman to consider what steps we ought to take about this important question. Nevertheless, at the back of my mind, I cannot help thinking that the result of this committee will be that some scheme may be formulated for intercepting the profits of the speculator and diverting them into better channels; that this House will set it up, full of confidence that it will provide a solution to the difficulty of the speculator; but after all is said and done, only a very small mouse will emerge from a very large mountain. I think the House sometimes forgets, in discussing these matters, that this country has been town-planned, and in recent years very elaborately town-planned, and we have a considerable volume of experience of the working of these town-planning schemes.
    Mr. Wedgwood: How many of them have been made compulsory and are authorised at the present time?
    Mr. Hutchinson: Certainly, they are compulsory schemes.
    Mr. Wedgwood: They are not compulsory in any way.
    Mr. Hutchinson: Oh, yes; in many cases schemes have been approved.
    Mr. Wedgwood: Name one.
    Mr. Hutchinson: The County of London.
    Mr. Wedgwood: There is no compulsion.
    Mr. Silkin: The hon. Gentleman has referred to approved schemes, but very few final schemes have been passed.
    Mr. Hutchinson: Certainly the approved schemes are effective; my hon. Friend knows that very well.
    Mr. Silkin: I know that approved schemes are not effective.
    Mr. Wedgwood: That is the whole difficulty.
    Mr. Hutchinson: My right hon. Friend knows that the development of the County of London is controlled by the draft schemes, and it has been for some years. What I was about to say was that my experience of the working of these schemes has been to a very large extent that, if the provisions of the scheme, or of the draft scheme, are made effective, that is to say, if they are made effective by the local authority insisting upon them, then to a very large extent the speculator is eliminated. The local authority says in its draft scheme, "We will allow you to develop a certain area in a certain way." That excludes the speculator, who desires to develop it in another way. What the speculator is always concerned to do is to persuade the local authority to relax its town-planning requirements, and his speculation is successful in so far as he is successful in persuading the local authority to do that. If he cannot persuade the local authority, then very often he goes out of business. I myself have seen it done many times in the County of London. The difficulty in London was to get the local authority to have the courage of its convictions about its draft scheme, and insist upon its provisions. I suggest, therefore, that when my hon. Friend comes 'to consider this question, he should attach the importance which it deserves to effective town-planning restrictions upon the development of land. If that is done, it will go very much further to eliminate the activities of the speculator than any ad hoc scheme that we are likely to formulate.
    Let me say a word or two about what seems to me to be the major problem

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    which really lies at the root of these questions of reconstruction. That is the problem of the distribution of population. 1 was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) dealing with that question in a very practical way. What has been happening in recent years has been that the centre of industrial and commercial direction has gradually moved away from the provincial cities, where it was once located, to a central position in London, with the result that a great population has spread itself in the outer suburbs of London until to-day London has reached dimensions which some of us thought alinose unmanageable in the days before the war. That is the major problem of reconstruction which we have to face. The conditions which existed in the outer parts of London were that there were progressive increases in the rates, due partly to the improvement and development which were going on in the suburbs and partly to the progressive concentration of population on the outer edges. The increases in travelling expenses to which the right hon. Baronet referred were contributing to a progressively increasing cost of living for those classes who are dependent upon the daily journey into London for their livelihood. One question which my hon. Friend's Department has to consider is whether this process should be allowed to continue after the war or whether some measures should be taken to check it and return in some form, at least, to the system which existed 20 to 25years ago, when the direction of major industries was not concentrated in London but was dispersed throughout the great urban centres of the provinces.
    Another matter to which the right hon. Baronet referred was the question of the future form and area of local authorities. There again, this is a matter which really lies outside the scope of my hon. Friend's Department. But it is a matter which is most intimately linked up with what he has to do, and I notice that the Minister himself, in his speech in another place recently, drew attention to this point. He said that we would have to consider whether the functions of local authorities ought not to be exercised over a. wider area than at present. Before the war it was extremely difficult to obtain any indication from the Departments concerned with this matter as to what the
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    future policy was to be with regard to the development of local Government areas. There are some towns which are growing up, with populations of 200,000 or 250,000, which are not county boroughs, and other towns, a quarter or a fifth of that size, which have been county boroughs for over half-a-century. Before the war nobody could find out what the future policy was to be. Now it is necessary that there should be some outline of this policy before we can undertake effectively proper consideration of the major questions of reconstruction. It is essential that we should know whether we are to expect local government areas to be on a wider and more populous basis than they used to be or whether there will be a redistribution of their functions so that certain functions will be exercised over broader areas, and certain functions over a more restricted area.
    Before I sit down I should like to say a few words about the form of the new buildings which we hope to see rising to replace those which have been destroyed. I would remind my hon. Friend that the successes of British planning and architecture in the past have not been accomplished by consultative committees or advisory bodies, or even by special panels of experts. Invariably they have been associated with one name; there were Sir Christopher Wren and Nash, and, perhaps, Decimus Burton. It has always been the genius of one man which has produced the result. However distinguished the members of these committees may be, somebody must take the decision about the form which the new areas to which we look forward are to take. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) paid scant justice to modern building when he said that good architecture had not so far penetrated to the working classes of this country. Yesterday I had occasion to ride long distances in some of the Northern and Midland counties, and again and again in the course of my journey the housing estates which have been developed by the local authorities stood out for the merits of their building and planning in contrast to those estates which have been developed by private speculators. That is something which is most noticeable throughout the country. I hope that full justice will be done to the local authorities, which in many cases

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    have produced buildings the design and planning of which are admirable.
    Another matter to which I wish to refer in this connection concerns the reconstruction of London. I want to remind the Parliamentary Secretary that one good building does not make a good city or a good street, or even a good terrace. When one comes to plan or replan urban areas, it is essential that they should be re-planned over fairly wide areas and that there should be somebody whose duty it is to ensure that there is some uniformity of style and material within that area. The policy of piecemeal construction that went on before the war was not a policy which will give us a city worthy of being the centre of a great Empire. Some of us who were very much concerned about the reconstruction of London in the days before the war feel very strongly that grave mistakes were made: some of them, I am afraid, being attributable to the failure of the town-planning authorities to stand up to the merits of their schemes. I am sure the House looks forward to the time when those mistakes will be corrected and we shall see London grow from its present misfortunes into a city worthy to be the capital city of this great Empire.
    Sir Jonah Walker-Smith: I will not say that I was entirely disappointed by the statement of policy made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings—a statement that we had awaited with interest—but I must confess I was disappointed that it was not delivered in that cheerful and breezy manner which we have become accustomed to associate with the speeches of the hon. Gentleman. His statement left me unsatisfied. I thought he adhered too slavishly to the ministerial brief with which he had been furnished, because he had to reflect the policy of the Ministry. He was most interesting whenever, and to the extent that, he departed from that brief.
    References have been made by the hon. Gentleman and by other hon. Members to certain statements, made by the Minister in another place. I have read those statements, and frankly, I was disappointed with them. They dealt with many matters, but not with those matters which I consider to be of the utmost im-
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    portance to the Ministry of Works and Buildings during the immediate period of the war and the post-war activities of the Ministry. The Minister seemed to be a little obsessed with other matters which were somewhat extraneous to, or at any rate secondary to, the specific duties of the Ministry. He was concerned with the matter to which the hon. Member for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson) referred, the re-organisation of local government; he was concerned with such matters as the place of agriculture in national planning, the location of industry, the nationalisation and utilisation of land—all of them matters of importance, all of them debatable, and some of them highly controversial, but not, it seems to me, matters which should firstly concern the Ministry of Works and Buildings. They seem to me to be far remote from the work which should naturally fall to such a Ministry. The Parliamentary Secretary has told us of certain activities of the Ministry, the appointment of committees, the appointment of controllers, the appointment of officials of all kinds and descriptions. I am sure those facts were given to impress us, and I have no doubt that they have impressed us, but whether favourably or not is a matter for the consideration of each one of us. All these functions of priorities, licensing and controlling tend to restrict output and slow down the wheels of production. I believe that policy to be fundamentally wrong. Instead of encouraging and fostering means of restricting output, the reverse policy should be adopted, and everything possible should be done to increase and improve output, thereby saving the man-power of the country.
    I do not propose to comment upon those matters which I do not think primarily concern the Ministry of Works and Buildings. I will comment only upon two phases of the Ministry's work which I think are eminently and primarily the duty of the Ministry. I refer to the manner in which they will deal with Government requirements for building for national purposes during the period of the war, and the manner in which they will prepare for the immediate post-war problems that we shall have to face. I think that all the other matters which I have mentioned more properly fall to be dealt with by the Minister without Portfolio, who will perhaps wind up this Debate.

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    He has been charged with the duty of considering national replanning as a whole, and I have no doubt that in doing so he will allocate to the various Departments certain duties which accord with their proper and appropriate functions— to the Board of Trade questions concerning production and export trade, to the Ministry of Health matters concerning town-planning and the direction and supervision of local government activities, to the Ministry of Transport questions concerning transport, roads, and so on; and to the Ministry of Works and Buildings things concerning works and buildings. It is to those matters that I am anxious the Ministry should devote their attention and cut themselves clear from those extraneous matters which are not their primary duties and responsibilities.
    Dealing with the two points to which I want to refer, I presume that the Parliamentary Secretary has read some of the Reports of the Select Committee on National Expenditure, particularly the 18th Report of the series which the Select Committee have issued. That report is something which greatly concerns the Ministry of Works and Buildings. It is a very disturbing report, for it indicates that there has been indifference, incompetence, extravagance, and it may be something worse. I have no doubt that in the fullness of time—I understand not just now—there will be a searching inquiry into the matters that have been raised by the Select Committee. I have no doubt that, having considered all that the Select Committee have reported, the Parliamentary Secretary will consider that certain changes are necessary. I have no doubt that certain changes are necessary, but I am hopeful that the changes will be practical and for the purpose of improving and avoiding all those conditions to which the Select Committee have adversely referred.
    I know that the Minister is in no way responsible for Press comments or for what are termed in the Press "intelligent anticipations" of his intentions and policy; but there is one comment which sufficiently disturbs me to cause me to submit it to the Parliamentary Secretary. I hope he will assure the House that there is no real foundation for the suggestion that he is proposing to make this radical
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    if not revolutionary change. The change to which I refer is the suggestion that he is proposing to rake out of the industry and take away from existing employers and organisations, and existing managements and foremen, a vast number of building operatives, and put them into a sort of pool, under the control of some improvised Department of temporary Government officials, for the purpose of sending them to various places and to various works, irrespective of the chaos and confusion it may create. It is so serious and disturbing that I should be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would assure us that there is no real foundation for a suggestion of that kind, because bad as the arrangements up to the present have been, as revealed by the Select Committee on National Expenditure, they will be comparatively small compared with the serious and disastrous results which will accrue from such a policy. That the Minister will need to make changes I am well assured. Although perhaps the Minister will not take it from me, I should like to suggest three or four specific respects in which he could make changes for the better.
    For the purpose of securing better output and securing more rapid production of these particular buildings, which are so essentially necessary for this critical stage in our national affairs, I suggest that he should give serious consideration to these points. The Minister of Works and Buildings has had a very long experience over many decades, and has had 18 months experience in reconstruction work under war-time conditions. Therefore there is no particularly valid excuse for saying that it is not now possible to have changes which would make for greater and better output and efficiency. In the first place, I would ask the Minister to secure that more care, thought and attention are given to the proposals of the Government before the work is actually started. I know that it has been said that it is much better to get on with the job,"but what is not wanted is a policy of more haste and less speed. If that policy had been adopted by General Wavell, the results in Libya would have been far less satisfactory. There is no excuse whatever for proposals not being thought out reasonably clearly before contracts are adopted.

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    Secondly, I ask the Minister to consider the methods and the conditions of contracting. I ask him to avoid in every way possible the particular method of contracting known as "payment of costs," because the costs of contracting are quite pernicious. I do not think that circumstances will enable us to have one particular method of contracting applicable in all cases. Whether we are able to have lump-sum contracts, which is devoutly to be desired, or whether we are to have target contracts, or contracts upon schedule rates, or whatever the method may be, let this be the fundamental and basic feature of the contracting conditions, that there must be in the contract itself community of interests between the contracting Department and the contractor, to see that there is the utmost efficiency, output and economy. If that is established, it will promote the whole of the work down to the actual operatives themselves, and there will be greater expedition, greater efficiency and better costs.
    I ask the Minister to consider also the question of allocation of contracts, which was referred to by the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) earlier in this Debate. We should depart from the practice, which was so prevalent at the beginning of the war, of piling on certain selected contractors vast quantities of work greatly in excess of their organisation, plant and supervising capacity, and leaving the remainder practically starved of work. Let the principle be to allocate to each particular contractor that amount of work which corresponds to his maximum and optimum productive capacity, measured in terms of plant, machinery, management, supervision, foremen and so forth. If one does that, not only shall we have the maximum output but the optimum of output, and output will be vastly increased. Let it be assured, inasmuch as many of these works are carried out in remote parts of the country, that the amenities for labour—the men sent out into the wilds—are adequate, and that there is provision for their housing, lodging and welfare. Again, that will lead to an increase in output. Those are all the observations I wish to make on my first point. I consider they are matters to which the Minister of Works and Buildings should apply his mind.
    My second point relates to the work which will fall to the Ministry in regard
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    to immediate post-war problems. As I have said before, let not the Minister of Works and Buildings worry about such matters as planning, local governing bodies and so on, which rightly rest and can safely be left in the hands of the Ministry of Health. Let the Minister of Works and Buildings concentrate upon works and buildings. Here is the particular problem in respect of which the Minister can do so much. After the war is over we shall have several millions of men demobilised from the Forces, and there will also be several millions of workers transferred from war-time production to peace-time industry. There will be an enormous dearth in housing accommodation. On the one hand the local authorities will have their five-year programme arranged under the aegis of the Ministry of Health, for the improvement of essential buildings which may be announced at any time, and on the other there will be an enormous amount of reconstruction work, which I fear may be greatly increased, due to enemy action. The duty of the Minister should be to bring these two factors together and to see that a programme is prepared in order that immediately after the war it may be started and we can absorb rapidly a large amount of this demobilised labour.
    After the last war we were not ready. Steel, labour, plant and material were not available, neither were our productive resources. The whole thing was chaos, muddle and confusion. There can be no excuse for that happening again. The Ministry of Works and Buildings should co-operate with the Ministry of Health to see that these plans are prepared in order that the constructional industry may continue its traditional role of acting as a spearhead of general industrial activity. Let it start the ball rolling, and all the other industries will be stimulated and encouraged by it. We are concerned not only with the number of houses we shall erect but with the standard of construction of those houses. Let us see that ways and means are in existence to ensure that every house that is built is built to at least a minimum standard. If we do that, we shall avoid a great deal of the bitter disappointment felt by many owner-occupiers, who, instead of taking a pride and a delight in the house they are gradually purchasing, feel nothing but resentment and

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    disappointment. If the Minister would bear that in mind in connection with his programme of post-war activities, he would be doing a very great national service.
    Mr. Silkin: With many of the remarks of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken I am sure the House will agree, but when he discussed the question of post-war planning I think he did less than justice to the need for giving consideration to it now. He gave us all the reasons why consideration should be given to it now, but he seemed to come to the wrong conclusion. I feel that all the factors which will arise immediately after the war, the large number of men who will be demobilised and released from munitions and Civil Defence, and the great need for providing housing and for rebuilding damaged property, will have the effect of putting very great pressure on local authorities and others concerned to get something done at once, and, if our plans are not ready, and we proceed without plan, we shall make the same mistakes that we made in the past and all our brave talk about a great new world will go by the board. Therefore, I feel that, while the day-to-day tasks of the Ministry are of urgent importance, the planning section of their work is of equal, if not greater, importance. During the past year I have had, in my capacity as Chairman of the Town Planning Committee of the London County Council, to give some consideration to post-war planning problems. I believe, broadly speaking, there is very little difference among people who have thought about planning as to what we should do, and the more broadly we speak, of course, the more agreement there is.
    I read the Debate on planning in another place, and I was struck by the remarkable unanimity that existed among Noble Lords of all political complexions as to the broad principles upon which post-war planning should take place. Everyone would be agreed as to the kind of housing that we want, though there may be difference of opinion as to the height that should be permitted for building houses. We are all agreed about open spaces, about the need for wide roads, for social service and for transport and so on. But I am sure there will be considerable differences of opinion as to the machinery that will be necessary
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    for bringing those things about. I should like to say a few words about the machinery which I think is necessary for securing adequate and efficient post-war planning. First of all, I do not agree that this work should be done partly by the Ministry of Health and partly by the Ministry of Transport. I think the work of planning our country after the war is of such importance as to deserve a new Ministry, a Ministry of Planning and Building. At present any new construction has to be approved by the local authority on behalf of the Ministry of Health, and at the same time any building on the main roads also has to be approved by the Ministry of Transport. I feel that this new Ministry should take over those functions of the Ministries of Health and Transport and should concern itself with the planning of all new construction. The Minister of Health has a very large and ever-increasing number of things to think about. He has to think of drainage, mental hospitals, and a variety of things, and, heavily burdened as he is, it is impossible for him to give that detailed consideration to the problems of planning which will be necessary if we are going to plan successfully.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Ernest Brown): There are no vested interests. There are duties which the law has put on the Minister of Health which he must perform. With reference to what the Government may decide to do and what the nation wants to do, the only interest that the Minister of Health has in the matter is that he has to see, whatever machine is decided upon, that the health of the people is a primary and vital interest in the planning that is done.
    Mr. Silkin: Of course, I never for a moment imagined that the right hon. Gentleman would stand in the way of any scheme of organisation which would be in the national interest, and I am sure that, if he was satisfied that it would be better that this part of his functions should be handed over to the new Ministry, he would agree. I would agree also that the Ministries of Health and Transport would have to be consulted. They have a wealth of experience and knowledge on these matters, and it would be foolish not to take the fullest advantage of it. Secondly, planning must be national. We cannot leave it to the large numbers of separate local authori-

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    ties to carry out their own separate planning for their own separate areas. Such matters as the control of the location of industry cannot and must not be left to the vested interests of local authorities. It is all very well to say, for instance, to London, "Get rid of your industries," for a local authority has a vested interest in its own area, and London is not out to lose rateable value and will naturally be selfish about it. If I were given, as Chairman of the Town Planning Committee, a free hand in the matter, I should be tempted to vote for industry remaining inside the county in order that we should have rateable value in the county. Therefore, it is a matter that must be settled nationally.
    Anyone who has read the report of the Royal Commission on the Location of Industry must realise that there are national problems and questions involved in the situation of industry. There are strategic and social questions and all sorts of other questions which the Royal. Commission considered and which can only be settled on a national basis. Therefore, this is a matter which must be dealt with by the new Ministry—as I hope there will be—and not by the separate areas. In my view and in the view of the Royal Commission there are a large number of areas throughout the country which have been allowed to grow too big and which, if possible, must be reduced in size. These questions of decentralisation and of the dispersal of industries and population cannot be left to the areas themselves. They must be dealt with nationally. I hope that any Ministry which will undertake this matter will give these questions its serious and continued consideration. The question of garden cities and satellite towns will arise. There again no single local authority, however large, is itself capable of creating a satellite town. That, too, must be a national question. The London County Council did at a certain time consider the possibility of solving their housing problems partly by means of creating one or more satellite towns, but they soon found that this came within the sphere of national policy. There was the problem of providing industry for the satellite towns and of whether they should move the population before they provided the industry or whether they should provide the industry first. If they moved a large number of people into the satellite
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    towns before they provided the industry the people would have to live and would have to go on unemployment pay, and soon. There were a variety of questions which no local authority could of itself solve. There was the question that inevitably any satellite town would have to be outside this area of the local authority which created it. Thus again the creation of satellite towns must be a matter for the Ministry and not for the local authorities.
    Another question which will have to be considered by the Ministry is the important one of the trend of future population. We are faced with a serious question, if the birth-rate continues to decline, as it has declined in recent years, of forecasting what will be the future population, not only of the country as a whole, but of particular parts of it, and of ensuring that we do not provide for a larger population than will in fact exist. The study of this question is again a study which can only be carried out by a Ministry and not by a local authority. I hope that I have indicated a sufficient number of reasons-for convincing the House that planning must be carried out on a national scale and by a Ministry, and not left to the local authorities. One instance of the effect of small local authorities being permitted to carry out their own planning is set out in the report of the Royal Commission, which says that in 1931 it was estimated that the amount of land zoned in draft schemes for residential development was sufficient to provide for a population of 291,000,000. Yet only one-half of the country was the subject of draft schemes, so that on that basis the separate local authorities could provide for a residential population of nearly 600,000,000 people. That shows the absurdity of allowing small planning authorities each to carry out its own plan. We must have large planning areas. I believe that that is generally accepted to-day, and I hope that consideration is being given to the question of what are suitable areas to be entrusted with the task of planning.
    A good deal of consideration should also be given to the question of who is to carry out the planning. Suggestions are being made of joint boards, of ad hoc planning boards, of commissions, of regional commissioners, and so on. In my view, planning cannot be dissociated from the life of the people in the areas. It is no use entrusting planning

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    to a board of experts who understand architecture or of engineers who understand the construction of roads. Planning must be the function of the people themselves and of those who know the needs of the people. I feel that the only body which can be entrusted with the planning of an area is the local authority itself. Joint boards, as we know from experience, will inevitably fail, because they have divided responsibilities and loyalties. They have their responsibility and loyalty to ther own authority and responsibility and loyalty to the joint board itself, and between the two there will be failure. I hope that it will be regarded as the democratic function of local authorities to be responsible for the planning of their own areas. I would say two things on that: first, that I hope that they will seek and receive the best possible technical advice, which is essential if planning is to be a success; and, second, that the Ministry will co-ordinate the planning of the different local authorities and make certain that they do not repeat the mistakes that have been made in the past of each area being a self-contained and independent planning authority planning without reference to what is going on outside its own area. If that is done and the local authorities are extended, I feel that it is essential that they should be given wider powers for town-planning purposes.
    The existing Town and Country Planning Act is inadequate for the purpose of carrying out any positive town planning. The existing powers enable the local authorities merely to regulate and control, but they do not enable the authorities themselves to carry out plans. The local authority merely has to wait until it pays a developer to come along and seek approval for his particular scheme, and the authority is only in a position of being able to say "Yes" or "No" to the proposed development. It cannot influence that development in any way, and if the powers are not extended we shall get no town planning within any measurable distance of time, but have, very largely, a repetition of what exists today. Local authorities need enlarged powers to acquire land for the purpose of themselves carrying out redevelopment. They have certain powers under the Housing Acts, but those powers should be very much widened, so that when a local
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    authority feels that an area ought to be redeveloped it should not be compelled to wait until a number of developers come along.
    Let me quote an example in connection with the work of the London County Council. Some years ago the council obtained powers to acquire a portion of the south bank of the Thames, and has since acquired a considerable part of that land, but it has no power to develop it. It has to wait until developers come along who are prepared to build in accordance with the council's conception of town planning, and until it can make a bargain with them. A county council should have power in a case like that to undertake the development itself—not necessarily the development of the whole of the area. I am certain that if the London County Council could make a start by putting up suitable office buildings or public buildings and letting them on commercial terms, other developers would come along who would be prepared to fit in with that plan. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister without Portfolio to consider the advisability of giving local authorities much wider powers to carry out positive re-planning.
    In that connection it will be necessary to simplify considerably the present methods for the acquisition of land. They are complicated, and the proceedings are protracted. Under the existing machinery it is frequently very difficult for a local authority to acquire the land which it needs. It is helpless to prevent a considerable amount of exploitation on the part of landowners where it seeks to acquire the land compulsorily. The moment there is any question of the land being acquired compulsorily, it is open to the landowner to employ architects and others to prepare a scheme for the redevelopment of that land—very often an entirely fictitious scheme, which he has no intention of carrying out, and which only occurred to him when he learned that the land was about to be taken compulsorily. He submits that scheme to the local authority, who are bound by the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act to give it approval in many cases and thereupon the owner is able to submit that it is land of immense value, basing his claim on its hypothetical value if the scheme is carried into effect. In that

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    way local authorities are exploited. I hope it may be possible in considering the acquisition of land to ensure that local authorities are not exploited and do not have to pay more than the actual value of the land at the time they seek to acquire it.
    I began by stressing the need for expedition in this matter, so that we shall not be taken unawares when the war comes to an end. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether anything can be done now, in anticipation. I believe that certain local authorities are being asked to prepare tentative plans. I realise that these cannot be final plans, because conditions change very much, but in broad outline the plans can probably be denned even to-day. Local authorities should be encouraged to draw up plans, getting the best technical advice in so doing, and submitting them to the Ministry, so that they can be coordinated and made to fit in with one another. Local authorities could be given powers, and encouraged to use them, to acquire land which has been rendered unusable by enemy action, in anticipation of their future needs. In that way the public will be saved money and a good deal of administrative work will also be saved. There are in London a good many districts in which it is known that street widening must inevitably take place after the war. If it is possible to acquire the sites of buildings demolished by enemy action on the route of such proposed street widenings, then local authorities should be encouraged to do it in anticipation of their requirements.
    I suggest, also, that the right hon. Gentleman should consider the question of the pooling of ownership. After the war the administrative difficulties of acquiring a large number of properties from separate owners will be so great as to hold up and hamper the work of local authorities. An area of 30 acres may belong to several hundred separate owners. You have to negotiate with each one; you have to carry out conveyancing in respect of each piece of land separately. There is a tremendous amount of work involved and I am advised that there will be an insufficient number of technical men available to undertake it. In some countries they have adopted the policy of acquiring the area of land wholesale, at a fixed price
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    and leaving it to the individual owners to settle among themselves what their respective shares should be. If that plan could be carried out here, and I see no reason why it should not be, it would save an enormous amount of work for local authorities.
    I feel that I have submitted to the right hon. Gentleman a number of proposals to which, probably, he will not be able to say either "Yes" or "No" when he replies. I believe however they are practical proposals which will have to be seriously considered, and if they are adopted, I feel they will facilitate the work which all of us desire to carry out —that is to turn what is happening in this country at the moment to the advantage of the people of this country. I believe that we are all united in desiring to build for ourselves the best possible kind of community and are all prepared to make the best contribution to that end.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: I will try to make my speech as brief as possible, and to comply with the oft-quoted request of Mr. Speaker with regard to the "cut-and-thrust of debate." This Debate however has been very wide in its scope, and it is rather difficult to follow all the points that have been made. I thought that the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken contradicted, in the middle of his speech, what he said in the first part of it. It seemed as though he were coming down solidly in favour of a national planning authority. He gave very good reason for it, but then he said he wished to give local authorities very considerable powers to plan—I thought he meant for development. I will come back to that point in a minute or two.
    I wish to congratulate my hon. Friend who opened the Debate upon the genial and knowledgeable speech which he gave us. It was an important speech. I took notes for my own purposes, but I cannot possibly go into all the very important matters which he disclosed to us. I rather share the view expressed in an interjection regarding the vast staff that is being formed. I do not believe in criticising a staff if it is really doing its job, but this staff seems to be getting very big. I hope that the controllers of bricks and other materials will justify their existence. I would record only one example in this connection. The other day a friend of mine wanted 3,000.000 bricks. An

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    application was made to the local controller, who named three firms. Of those three, one did not reply, another offered 500,000 and the third offered from 20,000 to 30,000 a week. Subsequent inquiry brought all the bricks that were necessary and a good many more besides, and one wondered in that case what particular value the control had. Knowing my hon. Friend's experience in the building of school camps, we have all the more confidence in his ability, which is well-recognised in this House. Those camps are not only well and, on the whole, economically built, but they are the best-sited camps in this country. That is the result of this House insisting upon having on the board not only men who know something about certain aspects of the building industry but men who know something of the aesthetic side as well.
    My hon. Friend said he had been in the building industry for 50 years. That rather makes me think I ought not to say anything at all on the subject; but 1 am told that the industry is not to a sufficient extent a unity. There are the points of view of the architect, the surveyor and the contractor. Very often, I understand, that of the architect tends to become remote and almost academic. There will be great need in the future for a more united training in this industry. May I suggest to my hon. Friend in all humility that he should get into touch with the President of the Board of Education and examine the arrangements which are being made in regard to this matter? Many young friends of mine have gone into the architectural profession. It involves a very difficult apprenticeship of five years, and my friends are not quite sure whether that time is well-spent. There is a case for re-examining the whole question from this point of view.
    I do not think that we ought to apologise to-day. The Earl of Cork, speaking in another place, made the remark that it was just as important to plan for peace when you were at war as it was to plan for war when you were at peace, and that it was a good deal easier. The Minister of Works and Buildings, speaking on the same occasion, said he was sure that the idea of a planned and ordered reconstruction was an incentive and encouragement to the war effort and, in fact, a high and worthy war purpose itself. Therefore, we do not need to apologise for asking the Minister with-
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    out Portfolio to define his position. I do not think it is sufficiently defined at the moment. I do not think it is a case of producing blue-prints. It is a question of analysing trends and doing the preliminary research and planning now, because it is much easier to do it now. It is not necessary to cease thinking because we are at war. In fact, my excursions into lecturing to the troops have convinced me that, among the men themselves, there is a very deep interest in these questions. Usually these lectures are followed up by a large amount of discussion. I have been staggered at the interest shown in these subjects, especially by the Air Force.
    I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) on his speech, although I did not agree with everything he said. He said that we should carry forward into the post-war years something of the unity which exists now. I believe that unless we do so we shall be in a bad state. The best way to do it is to concentrate on the maximum area of agreement and not to anticipate a number of controversies which could be raised to-day with little profit to any of us. I would recall what happened in the last war. During the years 1916–1918—I remember them very vividly in France in an organisation which we called the "Blighty League"—in this country there was a ferment of talk very much as there is at the present time. In 1916 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) set up a Reconstruction Committee under Mr. Edwin Montagu. They had no administrative duties. They were asked to anticipate urgent difficulties and to prepare in advance an adjustment of Government machinery. I believe that this question of Government machinery is more important than anything else, since many of the excellent reforms which were advocated during those years had been frustrated because the machinery was in-capable of producing them, quite apart from the exhaustion of the people after the war. On that committee to which I refer there were 14 Members of Parliament and a number of specialists. Dr. Addison, as he then was, referring to reconstruction—which appears at present to consist of a medley of committees without any plan of campaign—said, before

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    he was appointed, that his first job was to arrange that the first six or 12 months of peace did not land us in a mess at home. A Department was set up and devoted to research into the whole field, and its basic function was to plan and co-ordinate rather than to execute and administer.
    We are just about in that phase at the present time. An advisory council was then formed; the Ministry was reorganised and machinery was created for focussing the results of the investigation into definite proposals. In other words, there was a regular leading-up to the final Acts of Parliament through two years of constant group thinking and hard research. I should like to feel that the same sort of work was going on today. No doubt, the Minister without Portfolio will tell us something about it. It does not matter how it is divided up— into economics, social development, rural development and the rest.
    A clear division was made then between the immediate period after the war and the succeeding period of peace. What happened in those two years? In those two years the Committee produced the Acquisition of Land Act, the Electricity Commission, the Central Electricity Board, Joint Industrial and Whitley Councils, the Fisher Act, the Foresty Commission, and the Haldane Report on the machinery of Government, which has never been implemented. One of the reasons why we cannot get on with speed in this House to-day is that we have not done anything about devolution. Remember that that Committee was an advocate of the feasibility of separate legislatures in Scotland and Wales; it talked of giving great powers to regional bodies, and also laid the foundations of work in scientific and industrial research. There is a great wealth of Acts of Parliament which had their origin in the years 1916 and 1918. They were the result of hard work, and it was grouped work, carefully coordinated as between different Departments.
    This period 1916–18 showed that a central planning organisation of government can achieve results, provided it is well staffed and vigorously supported, even though there are many rival bodies. What about to-day? The same ferment is going on; the same publishers are pro-
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    ducing their series of pamphlets and booklets on schemes for after the war. Some of us can remember this from the previous occasion, but it is not a question of being disillusioned about it. Rather are we very anxious that the work should be thorough and that we shall not raise false hopes. In the very moving speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street he asked us to keep our present mood, when many old habits are being uprooted and when we can see things in a clearer perspective. I plead with him to remember that all industrial areas are not like his. I have seen where he lives, and there are woods and forests round about it. But there is much work to be done in other areas.
    I think the speech made by the Minister the other day was a very great advance. I believe that the positive things which he said about a planning authority, and about the acceptance of the principles of planning to be undertaken within the framework of a study of post-war problems, are a beginning. But they are only a beginning, because, as every one who has spoken in this House to-day knows, the kernel of the problem is land. It is no use for some of us to have ideas about village colleges, or about trying to make the most of this amazing experience of the evacuation and dispersal of children if we are to come back to the problem of land as we did before the war. I am not going to talk about specific machinery to-day; all we want at present is a definition of principle. We want to see ahead a little bit more clearly. In fact, I am not sure that we do not want to hear from the Minister without Portfolio a speech comparable to that made by the Minister of Works and Buildings in another place, stating carefully his position, because he has the wider field to tackle.
    With regard to the Barlow Report I am a minority report man, and I do not believe that you can work on the lines of the majority report. You have to go pretty well the whole hog, and take the powers from the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Transport, and ally them to that central authority. If you have not these allied and directly-related organs of government together, the whole thing seems to me sheer nonsense. People want decisions. We have had certain very definite statements from Lord Reith, but we

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    could go further. I would like to feel, as soon as the Uthwatt Committee has made its recommendations, that there was some real research being made, on behalf of the Ministry, on the question of land. I do not believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) was advocating pooled ownership of land. It is a very complicated question. I believe that Huddersfield owns its own land. I believe that if Huddersfield was bombed to-morrow, it could deal with a new Huddersfield, in a perfectly straightforward way. That makes one think. It may be that some careful analysis would have to be made of the present crazy-pavement type of ownership of land that exists in large cities. I do not know the answer: all I know is that 500,000 acres of good agricultural land have been transferred, on no principle at all, in the last few years. If we are to make any sense of this location of industry question, we must take into account what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street and the hon. Member for Peckham.
    I remember that, as an undergraduate, I first became interested in garden cities through the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle), and that I joined his organisation. What has happened since? After Ebenezer Howard's great scheme, very little. Those two schemes were organised by private persons. But, apart from the beginnings of satellite towns, which the London County Council have tried to build, we have had no pattern. We have had dormitory places set up outside the big cities, with no communal life. People go out of them to work, and they go out of them as quickly as possible at week-ends. I do not know what my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street, who is a Deputy-Regional Commissioner, thinks about this, but I have come to the conclusion that we must make more use of the region in future. I know that it is easy to talk, but, with the exception of the Board of Education and one other Ministry, every Government Department is now represented at regional headquarters. What is coming out of all this? We have to decide whether we are going to build down from the top, or to build up from below. I hope my right hon. Friend is examining that particular question. For town planning and drainage and such questions, there is no doubt that something like a regional authority is the
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    appropriate one. Hospitals, voluntary and statutory, are already working together on a regional basis. I only mention this matter in rather a superficial way because I know that the right hon. Gentleman is thinking about it, and I hope he is going to say something to-day.
    There is one further question. There was a very remarkable article in the "Times" on the two scourges some months ago in which it was pointed out that unemployment and war have focused the attention of the people upon this question of areas. It is very queer that it takes these two very great emergencies in human affairs to make people think about the question. I hope we shall not lose the best results of practical experience during the war. I am not talking about some new Heaven or new earth after the war, but about the experience we are getting of children in the country now. There is a whole heap of things that I would like to be done now. These children are to be the adults of to-morrow, and youth work must be done now. It is no use waiting.
    The Minister without Portfolio is concerned not only with works and buildings, but with all the Government Departments that are thinking about after the war, and, fortunately, he has had great experience in these questions and shown great enthusiasm, and we want to-day to see a bit of the vision as well. If the 1932 Act will not work, it is no good blaming the Minister of Health, because no Minister of Health could work that Act. The Special Areas Act made little impression upon unemployment, which was a legacy of the last war and which we had only just begun to tackle. We have to anticipate the causes of unemployment. We have to face completely the implications and not have a patchwork policy. The more I look at these questions, the more I am convinced that the Department under the Minister without Portfolio cannot work without envisaging anew pattern of living. It is not just a question of building. You cannot look at the question of the provision of education, which I think is essential in every village, without looking at building construction and land. However you look at it there are some five Departments involved. Planning for two-thirds of this country exists on paper. We have to throw off the old Local

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    Government Board mentality of just vetting work which local authorities do.
    I remember Lord Haldane coming to Oxford in the post-war years and saying that labour had captured the heights. He may have been right or he may have been wrong. Mr. Asquith came the next week and said that that might be true but all the work was done down in the valley. Now, when our existence is at stake and our habits are uprooted, is the time to envisage our own conception of what we mean by a better order. I think such a picture will not unsteady the eyes of the airman and will not upset the soldier or sailor or munition worker, and make him any less efficient, but will hearten them all if they know that the Government are thinking as vigorously about these questions as they are about prosecuting the war. Therefore, I hope my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio, who was in this very business in the last war and has seen with his own eyes the mistakes that were made, will rise to this occasion and will give to us to-day some perhaps clearer picture of where he stands in relation both to he Ministry of Works and Buildings and to general reconstruction.
    Mr. Wedgwood: The speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to-day was, I thought, admirable. It was divided into two sections. The first dealt with the management of the building industry during the war, on which question there has been little discussion here to-day, and the second, to which most of the discussion has been devoted, dealt with the question of whether and how we should plan for the general rebuilding and reconstruction of this country. I would remind the House that it is not merely a question of building working-class houses. It is a far wider question, involving the re-allocation of industry, transportation, electric power and a great deal else. The report we have to go on is the report which Lord Reith submitted to the Cabinet, and I gather that that report deals principally with the general planning of the country. It suggests taking over from local authorities the whole question of planning and making it a centralised issue under a centralised executive. I think that that is inevitable. It is inevitable that the
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    question of roads, railways and canals should be a national and not a local matter, and it is becoming equally important that factories should be national and not local and that new garden cities should be national and not local.
    I think we are all agreed that planning should be a centralised subject. (An hon. Member: "No.") Well, I personally would object to centralisation for as long as possible, but I think that in this case it is inevitable. I would like the parish council to settle everything, but that is impossible when you are dealing with a question of such magnitude and ramifications as this. If we are to take over this question of town and country planning, it is necessary that we should realise that we have had this matter before the country and this House for 31 years. The first Bill was introduced in 1909, and, of course, I opposed it. It was a completely futile Measure which was never acted upon. Other Bills have been brought in regularly ever since, but in spite of this series of Town Planning Acts, I believe that only two-thirds of England is now draft-planned and that there is hardly a single place where a plan has compulsory and statutory powers. Why? For the simple reason that if we say to the owners of real estate how their property is to be used according to our ideas, it must involve the horrible question of compensation.
    Town planning means that you say to an owner of a large estate, say, outside Middlesbrough, that his property will not be laid out as he wishes, to his best financial advantage, but that so much will be laid out for factories, for roads, for open spaces and that the town, with the approval of the Minister, will decide exactly how his property must be used. In every case, of course, the owner is bound to say that such planning will injure the value of his property, and therefore, he is entitled to compensation. In every one of these Acts that compensation was arranged for. There was to be compensation for people, not when their land was taken, but when it was planned so that it could not be used for any other purpose. It is because of those compensation sections that all the town-planning Acts have failed. In my own borough we have to a large extent got round the difficulty, as I gather has been

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    done in London. My borough, being intelligent, has bought up all the vacant land within the area so that it can layout its own property according to a very good town-planning scheme drawn up by the highest authorities. That is all very well when it is a question of extending a borough, but it does not meet the problem with which we are concerned at the present time, the reconstruction of existing developed property, which is becoming more important than the development of future suburban areas. It is more important because we cannot expect the population to go on increasing quite as it has done during the last few years, and indeed, we may find that there is a decreasing population after the war. Therefore, the reconstruction of existing property must take a larger place in our provisions for the reconstruction of England.
    As I have said, all the town-planning schemes have broken down because of the indefinite question of compensation. It there were some definiteness, if one knew what would be the liability of the Government or of the local authorities the matter would be very much easier, but the liability is an indefinite one, and one which does not, as some hon. Members have said, fall upon the local authorities. It falls upon the consumers, it falls upon the people who live in the houses on the land which has been bought at an exorbitant price. It is the public which pays the compensation to the landowners for laying out their land in a different manner. It is for this reason that towns have not been planned and our new arterial roads, our by-passes, have cost us an enormous amount of money, and it is for this reason that, when new by-pass roads are made, the whole cost is charged to the public and goes almost directly to the benefit of the owners of adjoining land. One hon. Member from this side of the House referred to the system that was followed in Frankfort-on-Main, where the local authority bought up, without paying for it, the land in large blocks, and then when it laid out the roads and arranged for buildings and open spaces, compensated each landowner, giving him a share for his area in proportion to the total amount. That was a very good way of getting round the difficulty and it was fair in operation, but it was on a
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    small scale in connection with a suburb of Frankfort-on-Main.
    Everybody who has studied this problem from 1909 onwards realises that the whole problem would be possible of solution if we had made a general valuation of land all over the county and the buildings on the land, so that we would know what compensation was payable and exactly what was the value of the land, without having to go through the cumbrous procedure of having a board of arbitration at which all sorts of subsidiary claims in connection with the destruction of amenities are brought up.
    If there is to be any reconstruction on sane lines after this war, it is essential that we should have this valuation as soon as possible. It is so simple if you say that the valuation shall be the basis for either purchase or taxation. If that principle is laid down, it can safely be left to the landlords themselves, and those who have an interest in the land. You can leave it to them to fix their own valuation. They will not fix it too high because of their taxes, and they will not fix it too low because of the selling price. I am perfectly certain, if the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply to this Debate will envisage afresh the question of valuation, that he will obtain results of times of peace which will be invaluable, not only for the purposes of reconstruction, but for all time, as the State gradually acquires more and more of the land of this country, as inevitably it must. At the present time the valuation of land, particularly undeveloped land around our towns, is unduly inflated. Speculation is not a new thing. It has not sprung up since the "blitz." It has been going on for years. Everyone who owns land says to himself, "It is quite true that I cannot get a better price for this land now, but that will not be the case in 10 years' time." Everyone knows that land which was bought at £50 an acre 10 years ago is in many cases worth £1,000 an acre at the present time. That is shoving up the price of land to the purchaser all over the country, and by pushing up the price it means that the man who wishes to use it, whether for building, agriculture or whatever it may be is refused the opportunity and is put out of work.
    Indeed, unemployment is created when nature's storehouse of the goods which we can manufacture is locked up. Therefore,

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    when you make your valuation, bear in mind that it is an inflated value and not an economic value. The real reason why the taxation of land values has never been accepted in this country is that it has the effect of reducing the selling value of land. Ultimately it reduces the amount of rent which the owner can receive. Everyone who owns land is against the procedure, but it is inevitable that we should reduce this burden of private taxation which falls on people at the present time. Among other speakers the right hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), who ought to know better, suggested that if a tax was levied on land values, we should get skyscrapers. It would have exactly the reverse effect. The cheaper land is, the less necessary it is to put up enormous buildings. If land all round London was half the price it is, people would be tempted to go out. Anything that reduces the value of land enables you either to have a larger area for your own house or to put up more houses further out and thereby relieve congestion. The obvious case in point is Sydney; which for 30 years or more has had all local taxes levied upon land values and nothing on buildings, with the result that Sydney, a town of about 1,500,000 population, is spread over an area nearly as large as London. Instead of being congested, the houses all have gardens round them. The drawback is that everyone has to have a motor car in order to get about the town. But it has made land in the suburbs cheap. People can get a very fine site for a house at a reasonable price.
    Mr. Selley: If that was applied to London, would not London cover the whole of the Home Counties?
    Mr. Wedgwood: If my hon. Friend went to Sydney, he would see these lovely suburbs all round the harbour; at Washington he would see the houses with their gardens without fences. It is a very pleasant thing when people are able to make their gardens a decent size, and when they can get the amenities of the country combined with the conveniences of the town. There you have cases where, far from leading to congestion and skyscrapers, it has opened up the country. Johannesburg is sometimes thought of as being a second edition of Wigan. It is
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    nothing of the sort. It is like a gigantic sea of trees from end to end. All these places have the enormous advantage of starting with this principle, and they have not had vested interests to fight. They have an intelligent scheme, and they have the revenue. But do not let us think it is impossible to get it here too. Let us have the valuation now.
    Mr. Bossom: I am particularly interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman talk of skyscrapers. As a matter of fact, land values in New York, where the highest skyscrapers are built, are nothing like as great as in London, where we have smaller buildings.
    Mr. Stokes: What are the relative values?
    Mr. Bossom: I should say that the corner of Broadway and Wall Street, one of the highest values in the world from the American point of view, is about two-thirds to three-quarters of the value of the best land around the Bank in London.
    Mr. Wedgwood: That is exactly my point. In New York the tax is levied on the value of the land, plus the value of the building, but you have to pay the tax, whether there is a building on the site or not. The price of land in the centre is therefore less than in the perimeter of the town.
    Mr. Bossom: I could go on with this subject, but we are here to discuss our own situation. I would like to talk to my right hon. Friend on this point afterwards. As to the question of the land, we have to face the fact that ultimately the Government will have to purchase and be the owners of large areas of land. When they do that I hope they will do a rather novel thing. I hope that they will lay it out and then turn it back to private ownership, taking the profit that will thereby accrue when it goes back into private ownership, and when that land is resold again, if that should occur, the Government will then take any further profit that accrues in the form of a tax. Do not let us take away entirely individual interest in property. I live on a piece of Crown property, and I cannot even put a bush in my garden without some bureaucrat saying whether I shall or shall not. The hon. Gentleman who spoke before the right hon. Gentleman asked me

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    what I thought about the building industry. I think that that industry ought to be thoroughly overhauled. The day has long passed when we can continue as we are to-day with 55,000 general contractors and a great number of architects all fighting for jobs. The industry is not on an economic basis, and that is not good for the country. We see the steel industry, the cotton industry and the chemical industry revived and improved, by such thorough reconsideration, and the building industry requires the same treatment. I hope that Lord Reith will give this matter some practical consideration before the end of the war, because it certainly needs it.
    I intended to speak only of one simple, practical problem which has been brought about entirely by the war. It is not a question of law, but of practical building which is very important. Before doing so, I want to congratulate my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on the way in which he has handled this subject to-day. He gave an account of a vast range of activities which he has undertaken and which, I am sure, will be handled very well. I am entirely in agreement with those who believe in planning. We must have it on the biggest scale possible, but there is a lot to be done before we put planning into practical application. Planning is a most difficult science. We know the theory of it but not the practice of it. It is a thing that has to be studied and a lot of research has yet to be made before we can get the best from it on the biggest scale. We have heard of post-war work and of work that is to be done during the war by the Ministry, but what I have heard has given me the impression that much of this work is in prospect and is not being undertaken yet. The Minister has been in office for about four months, and I would like to know something about the present situation. I would like to know that it is being considered in all its different phases, because there is one phase of it which was not mentioned by my hon. Friend or by Lord Reith when he spoke in the other place a short time ago.
    I would like to know what arrangements are to be made in those places where factories that have been partially "blitzed" but where houses and homes have been entirely "blitzed". I am
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    sure that the Minister will be aware of many towns where there is crying need for homes for munition workers. There is not time available to rebuild such houses properly in all details, and I would ask whether he has given that situation any consideration. We cannot wait for all town-planning arrangements. We must go in for temporary building. We cannot concentrate factories as we might like to; we have to disperse them, and that means providing housing accommodation for the workers for those factories in many unusual places. Has the Minister thought how he is going to accommodate the people there? Without the workers those factories will be of no use. There is one town in particular which I know of where they need urgently 30,000 more workers to-day but have not the houses in which to accommodate them, and that is seriously holding up production. This situation has to be met by some temporary expedient in construction which can be wiped out, if necessary, after the war. We cannot wait for town planning schemes.
    I should also very much like to know whether the Minister has given consideration to the materials that will be needed for this work. Has he a practical plan worked out? I was one of the members that produced the Fifth Report of the National Economy Committee dealing with the militia camps. We know that it was estimated that the camps would cost £21,000,000 and that the actual expenditure exceeded £80,000,000—and we have not heard the end of it yet. That was brought about by lack of foresight, and lack of the provision of plans and appropriate people to do the work. I hope we shall not have the same thing happening again in this case through lack of earlier preparations. The plans must be made now, the people must be arranged for now. We cannot wait longer. I do hope that the Minister will be able to tell us that these things have been considered and are already provided for. I hope he has worked out his plans whereby it will be possible to put up these temporary buildings without using materials which come from abroad. He has told us we have plenty of cement. There are many materials, like gypsum, for instance, which could be used for building that are not to be permanent. The buildings will not need heavy foundations; the walls can be treated

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    with rough cast, and they will stand for three to five years quite satisfactorily. It is important to give this matter thorough consideration right away. The Minister should take matters up with the architects, so that they may make the necessary provision for the work to be done with speed, and he should arrange for contractors in the different regional areas to be ready and so not have to disturb other vital work. I hope that he will have pools of labour, so that we shall not have to disturb progress on other buildings such as munition factories which are equally vitally necessary. Such buildings have got to be built. We have to face it. We might as well undertake the preparation now before greater difficulties come upon us, as they are so liable to do any day.
    Mr. Hicks: I should like to intervene to reply to the point which my hon. Friend has just raised, because it is possible that the Minister without Portfolio may not be so intimately acquainted with all that has been done as is the Ministry of Works and Buildings and may not be able to reply to it fully. I should like to say, first, that my Noble Friend the Minister of Works and Buildings has had an examination made into this problem. He is very much concerned not to provide accommodation of a permanent character but something of a temporary nature, in order that his ideas and plans for physical reconstruction shall not be hindered. The question of providing accommodation for workers in towns where factories may be partially "blitzed" and houses completely demolished has been taken up seriously. Architects have been consulted, experts have been consulted, all the Departments have been consulted, including the Admiralty, the War Office and the Ministry of Health. Provision is to be made, not only for single men, but for married men, and the plans have been drawn up. I am certain that by the end of this week we shall have final approval for the plans and elevations, materials will be used which it will not be necessary to bring from abroad, and speedy reconstruction will take place. We have planned to cover accommodation, not only for the 30,000 people mentioned by the hon. Member, but possible for 200,000.
    Mr. Bossom: I thank the Minister very much for all he has said. It is cheering to know that the matter has already been considered. But we must build this work so that it can be wiped away at the finish of the war. We shall not want to hamper ourselves later and we can avoid this if we make it of strictly temporary construction. The Minister mentioned 30,000; I referred only to one particular town. He knows as well as I do that the situation is causing difficulty there at the present time. We do not want, if this trouble suddenly comes, to have men drawn away at the last moment from aerodromes or essentially needed factories in order to do this housing work, which should be and can be planned ahead. What the Minister said was gratifying and I thank him for interrupting me. Otherwise, because as he said I am afraid I might not have had an answer and it might have gone out that the Minister had not looked after the matter. The Ministry have a terribly difficult job, but they are trying to do it in a very fine way.
    In my opinion the workers at a lot of these places are very poorly looked after. They are trying to do a good job—there are one or two places where they are bad and where poor work is being done—but on the whole the great mass of the work is being well and promptly handled. It must be rather discouraging to them, when visitors come along in big cars, to know that the visitors have come from comfortable beds and homes and will go back to them later, while the building workers have to carry on under most uncomfortable housing conditions. I hope that the Ministry of Works and Buildings will see to it that the workers' accommodation is as good as possible in the circumstances, possibly by letting them occupy the first of the temporary buildings which they construct. It would allow them to live at least in a comparatively decent manner.
    I hope that the Ministry will concentrate upon speedy construction in this part of its work and not concentrate so much upon appearance. We do not need to worry about the aesthetic aspect of temporary buildings, which are only for a very short life. We have to win the war. I hope the buildings will be warm and comfortable, so to speak, satisfactory for lounging and dining, but we must re-

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    member that the one issue before us at the present time is winning the war. Nothing counts if we do not do that. I again thank my hon. Friend for interrupting me in order to show that this work is under consideration. The men who are doing the work are fine fellows. They are working hard, and I want to see them with the best opportunities for doing the best they can for the country, in this serious national crisis.
    Mr. Hubert Beaumont: The hon. Member who has just spoken has truly said that there is only one issue that matters, that of winning the war, but it has been a relief to turn from acts and policies of destruction to acts and policies of construction. I think it is admirable that we should have had an opportunity of considering the work of the Ministry of Works and Buildings and of its future operations. I would pay my tribute to my hon. Friend for the brilliant execution of his brief. He interested the House tremendously. In one respect he was somewhat disappointing. He gave us a very full account of the work of the departments in respect of what I might call the removals, replacement and repairs services, and demonstrated the magnitude of the provision for Government staffs in the requisitioning of hotels and boarding houses. I am sure that no one is better able than he is to act as the genial host in such circumstances.
    Mr. Hicks: Come for the week-end.
    Mr. Beaumont: Thank you very much. Without detracting from the value of the work that has been done by the Department, we should have liked the Parliamentary Secretary to lift the curtain and give us something of a vision of the future, as visualised by the Department. We thought at one moment that he was about to do so, but then he said, "I am not going to bring the dish out of the oven, because if it is badly cooked it might be indigestible." Although we are concerned with the cooking of the dish, we are even more concerned with its ingredients, and we should have liked to have known what the dish contained. It may be admirably cooked, but even then it may prove indigestible. I hope that on some early occasion we may know something of the contents of this wonderful dish. What I feel this Ministry—I say it in all kindness and helpfulness—is
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    labouring under a great disadvantage. There seems to be something very nebulous about its powers. We do not know whether it is to function in a purely advisory department or a director authority. We desire to know its powers. We want this Ministry to state its functions and duties so that at some later stage we can definitely assess its success or failure, and to be able either to approve or to condemn what the Ministry does. We are in somewhat of a difficulty at the present time, because we cannot place our fingers upon any definite powers that the Ministry possesses. In fact, their powers seem to be "wrapt in mystery." The Parliamentary Secretary said that the one thing which the Ministry has is a genius for picking other people's brains. I hope the Ministry will develop a genius for stopping other people from picking the nation's pockets. The powers of the Ministry should be such that they can prevent the further exploitation of the people. I believe that it was Edison who once said that genius was 10 per cent, inspiration and go per cent, perspiration, and we believe that it is that kind of genius that the Ministry must exercise if they are to carry out their tasks.
    There are two aspects of planning. One aspect is of planning during the war, and the other is of planning after the war. We want to be sure that the planning which is done during the war shall have some relationship to that which will follow after the war. We do not want the plans of the future to be spoilt by the plans of the present, and we do not want to have to scrap those plans which we put into effect during the progress of the war. Therefore, it would be interesting if at some early date we could be informed of certain definite principles of planning upon which this Department is to work. One beneficial result of the "Blitz" is the destruction of some of the hideousness of some of our cities which would have been difficult to get rid of in ordinary circumstances, and we hope that that hideousness will not be carried on in future planning. We do not want a congestion of buildings, but wide, open spaces with dignity of design and grandeur of aspect.
    The Parliamentary Secretary said—I lope I am not misquoting him—that certain ugly heads were rearing themselves,.n these circumstances I want to know

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    whether the Department is going in for a process of strangulation or decapitation? These obstructions, whatever they are— obstructions of bricks and mortar or of private interests—must be swept away in the common interest of the people. It may be that the Ministry will come up against certain vested interests. This House and the country have determined, have expressed themselves in no uncertain way and will insist, that no vested interest shall stand in the way of the successful prosecution of the war, and that all interests should be subordinated to the general interest of the whole community. We hope that the principle which is essential during war-time will be translated into peace-time terms, and that during the reorganisation that will come after the war no vested interest will be allowed to stand in the way of the interests of the people. There may be vested interests in land, in local government authorities, or even in Government Departments. None of these must stand in the way. I am not one of those who suggest for one moment, as has been suggested, that the Ministry of Health not only has a vested interest but is jealous to guard that interest. I believe that the Ministry of Health is a Department which is trying to apply to the best of its ability the powers which have been given to it, and that it will be ready to co-operate in any way with the other Departments concerned. But we have to demonstrate, even if it is necessary for the functions of Government Departments to be curtailed so as to secure unity of plan, that those functions must be curtailed.
    I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, or the Minister without Portfolio, whoever is going to reply, what danger there is at the present time, under the powers possessed by the Minister, of overlapping and of gaps? I trust that the suggestion made by one hon. Member that it is the function of the Works and Buildings Department to look after works and buildings while it is that of the Ministry of Health to look after housing, will not be accepted. It is of fundamental importance that housing should go with works and buildings. If there must be separate Departments dealing with these matters, there must be close co-ordination and co-operation between them. In rebuilding in future we have to consider the lessons of the past as well as the lessons
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    of the present. There has been too much spoliation of the countryside. It may well be that the evacuation of people, and particularly children, from the towns will have given them a new vision of life in the country and a love for the countryside which they would never have acquired in any other way. It will have given them an appreciation of health and of beauty, and it is possible that in future it will be more easy to transfer industries to country districts because of the willingness of the workers to live in the country districts themselves. But in that connection we have to make sure that we do not indulge in any of the foolishness that has been tolerated in the past. Too little note has been taken—or rather there has been too little understanding and appreciation—of the uses of land. We ought not to build houses and other buildings upon fertile soil which is necessary to agriculture, and in planning for the future it will be necessary to take into account the needs and opportunities of agriculture itself.
    In the last war it was said that this country should be made a country fit for heroes to live in. The terrible onslaught of the enemy upon this country has demonstrated to the world that this is a country in which heroes and heroines are living and dying. It is surely the duty of the House, and of the Departments concerned, to plan so wisely that the cities, towns and villages of the future shall be worthy of the inhabitants of the land itself. Let us remember, in the words of Ruskin, that the greatest cities of the world are not the cities which contain the greatest numbers of men and women, but the cities which contain the greatest men and the greatest women.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: May I, at the outset of my speech, convey my heartiest congratulations and good wishes to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings. Before he occupied that post, he addressed this House, I thought, too seldom; but when he did so he gave us that combination of commonsense and vigour in which many of us in all quarters learned to delight. The problems which have been pointed out by many speakers in this Debate separate themselves into the immediate problems of the war and certain planning problems which will have to be carried out after the war but which have to be considered to-day. It is very

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    important that those of us who are strongly in favour of a central department of government engaged continuously in town and country planning should make it clear that we are not idealists who ignore the requirements of the present situation in which we find ourselves. It is quite true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) has said, that there are immediate problems of rehousing for war purposes, which cannot possibly wait for long-distance planning. But it is also true that we are not, in discussing planning to-day, merely discussing some academic question that may not be of immediate importance at an early date which it is impossible to-day to determine.
    My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary referred to a speech by my Noble Friend Lord Reith in another place, in which he said that he had been instructed to proceed with his work on the assumption that the principle of planning would be accepted as national policy and that some central planning authority would be required. I welcome those words. My purpose is to express the hope that that planning authority will be set up as soon as possible, and also the conviction that our knowledge of certain failures in the planning legislation of the past makes quite clear some of the dangers that we have to avoid and some of the principles that must be observed. Let me remind the House that this problem would have been urgent even if there had been no war. On the Ministry of Health Votes in 1937 and in 1938, on many occasions inside the House and outside it I advocated stopping the scandal of the destruction of the beauty of both rural and urban England. I am delighted that to-day there has been more general support for those views than I got on earlier occasions in this House.
    What happened in the 21 years between the Armistice and the outbreak of the present war? I do not think that any thoughtful person will deny that in this country we suffered greater destruction of the beauty of town and country, at a quicker rate, than had ever been experienced in any country in time of peace. My second point is that that destruction was unnecessary. It is true that we did tremendous work in the clearance of slums and the building of new houses, and a great deal of the effect of that development is good; but I do not
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    believe that any experienced town-planner will dispute that ten times the amount of development need not have caused one-tenth of the destruction. What were some of the faults that were brought to light? One was the absence of a central Government authority with powers of planning; another was the utter unsuitability for their task of many of the local authorities, which were made the statutory planning authorities. I agree with some hon. Members in what has been said on the importance of the question of compensation and betterment. I am not going to deal with that to-day, because I think that that will be more profitably discussed in this House when we have the report of the Uthwatt Committee before us. I am not denying the importance of that subject, but I emphatically deny that that was the only cause why things went wrong.
    The local authorities for the purposes of planning are often not such influential or comparatively well-off bodies as county councils. They are such small bodies as rural district councils. In many cases the rural district councils, apart altogether from being too poor to pay the compensation which might be involved if they had adequate planning, could not afford, or would not afford, to pay the planning officer an adequate wage to prepare an adequate plan. The only hope, of course, was that small local authorities would have the sense to come together and form a joint advisory planning committee. What happened if they did? Let me remind the House of a point that is too often forgotten. When the first step has been taken in town planning by the preliminary resolution, you get soon afterwards the interim development order. Thereafter, when a builder or speculator wishes to build a house and desires to be sure that in the future he will not have to pull the house down without compensation, he must come to the local planning authority for permission to build that house. I ask the House to assume a case in which the permission to put a house in that place would, if granted, absolutely ruin any rational plan for that neighbourhood. If permission is refused, he has a right of appeal to the Ministry of Health; but if, on the other hand, the rural district council grants the permission for which he asks, then, although the thing he

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    desires to do is ruinous in the opinion of the county council and of every amenity society and of the joint advisory planning committee on which his own local authority is represented—though it is a ridiculous and horrible outrage in the opinion of the Minister himself, there is no body which has any power to stop that outrage being committed. It is a fantastic state of affairs.
    After all, the beauty of England is not the concern only of the little authorities into which the country has been divided. It concerns the interest and reputation of the nation and the happiness of all its people, and the thing for which I plead—and I know that the Minister without Portfolio, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and my Noble Friend the Minister of Works and Buildings, will agree—is a conception of Government which says that, if outrages are taking place either in city or country, it is the business of the Government of this country to stop them, and not to say, "Oh, it is the fault of some local authority." It is necessary for any rational planning that the local planning authorities should be different from the existing planning authorities. I do not know whether "regional" will be the final description, or what word will be used, but there must be more rational divisions and larger divisions than at present exist. Not only the areas of local planning authorities but also their powers need revision. Their powers must be advisory. The last word must rest with the Government Department which can be questioned in this House. It is nonsense to say that, if one of the greatest assets in this country is treated with contempt by the authority in whose area it is situated, that is no concern of the Government or this House.
    Several hon. Members have mentioned the question of population and, of course, this is vital in planning. But local authorities, with the best intentions in the world, as long as they are acting for themselves alone cannot give proper consideration to this question. If I may quote from some 1937 figures I would point out that in some three-fifths of the country the first steps had been taken in town planning and in that area alone enough land had been zoned to accommodate seven times the existing population of the whole country. Yet we know that
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    the population is about to decline. To zone land for such an excess means a wasteful use of land. To illustrate another point in what was wrong in our pre-war planning—and this will have the sympathy of those Members who represent country constituencies—contempt was shown in the whole machinery of planning for the glorious industry of agriculture. Agriculture was not considered as a development for which town and country planning could provide. So urban-minded were our drafters— although I do not like that expression, especially as I see my hon Friend the senior burgess for Oxford University (Mr. Herbert) here—that if we decided to devote a piece of country in the neighbourhood of a city to the most productive of all human uses, namely, growing wheat, how did we describe the process? We said we were "sterilising" the land. We built up a fantastic vocabulary to accompany our fantastic neglect. In this ridiculous language the only thing that did not sterilise the land was to hand it over for complete ruin to speculative builders.
    That brings me to the greatest of all failures—ribbon development. I suppose that ribbon development on the outskirts of a town has been the most ingenious method yet devised for destroying the beauty of both town and country without creating the amenities of either. It was a process which might have been devised by a perverse genius who wanted to destroy as much country as possible while building as few houses as possible, and to lay waste the loveliness of England without creating the possibilities of a civilised life. The most characteristic of our failures was that this absurdity, having been universally recognised, was allowed to continue. This House solemnly passed a Ribbon Development Act, not to stop ribbon development but to put the ribbon back a little further from the road. Control was handed over to the Minister of Transport and with this one exception the evil continued as before. I think that the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) is conveying by his look that this bears out his theory of land values, but whatever may be said for that theory, this evil could have been dealt with even without tackling that problem. For instance, an elementary thing might have been realised that a subsidiary road should not be parallel to the main road.

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    but should be at right angles to it and lead to a properly planned group of buildings. I will not enlarge on that now. My main point is that it was really fantastic that the House year after year should have had these evils pointed out to it, and should have adopted an attitude of complete helplessness—"Oh, well, nothing much can be done about it" It can be stopped, but it can be stopped only if you have an efficient machine of central government. It cannot be stopped if you put your planning powers, such as they are, in the Ministry of Health and your powers for the prevention of ribbon development, such as they are, in the Ministry of Transport. Obviously, it is essential that those powers must be exercised together by the same Ministry.
    Sir Joseph Nall: The greatest obstruction to making even the limited use that might have been made of that Act was the attitude of the Ministry of Transport which, time and time again, allowed appeals against decisions to effect what the hon. Member has just advocated.
    Mr. Strauss: I would not disagree with what the hon. Member says, but I think I had better not deal further with the Ministry of Transport to-day. It is not a Ministry which a priori I should particularly expect to have rational and enlightened views on the planning of buildings. They were concerned simply with the roads. I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his intervention, because it strengthens my point.
    I think now I must say a few words— because very little has been said about it in this Debate—on the subject of architecture, since it is a subject about which I care passionately. I was a little shocked by one or two wrong statements in the very delightful speech of the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson). He suggested that nothing in building was worth anything that did not go back nine centuries, and when challenged said, by way of explanation, that what he had in mind was the impression made upon him as a boy by Durham Cathedral. I agree with him on the merits of that glorious building. But do not let us forget that in the 18th century we produced perhaps the best domestic architecture that has ever been produced anywhere. I deplore it
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    when anybody speaks in this House as though the glories of the eighteenth century did not exist, as though there were nothing to lose in Bath, nothing to lose in the Bloomsbury squares, and nothing to lose in all our glorious heritage of Georgian architecture. The 19th century was certainly a horrible interruption, but to-day there is no reason whatever why our architects should not build cities as worthy of the 20th century as Bath is of the 18th century. And they are prepared to do so. When we curse the architecture—if one can call it architecture—that disfigures the Kingston bypass, do not let us forget that that is generally not the architecture of bad architects; it is architecture in which no architect at all has ever had a hand.
    Now let me say one word in criticism of the Government in a matter which they may have thought rather incidental. It may not have mattered much, but I implore them not to do it again. When, on 24th October, 1940, my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal announced the functions of the Ministry of Works and Buildings, there was a passage in his announcement which referred to
    "houses and buildings of an architectural nature." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th October, 1940; col. 1152, Vol. 365.]
    I was not here at the time, but I was delighted to see that an hon. Member rose and asked what on earth this meant. As a matter of fact, the draftsman of that particular phrase showed himself so ignorant of the whole nature of what architecture meant, that he cast a doubt, in advance, on the merits of the Ministry, which was being established. Fortunately, my noble Friend and the Parliamentary Secretary have done their best, subsequently, to wipe out that initial disadvantage. Do let us stop talking about houses and buildings of an "architectural nature," as if there were any houses or buildings which did not have an "architectural nature." The architecture may be good or frightful, but it is always there. That phrase is the mark of the complete Philistine who thinks that architecture is some odd bit of decoration placed on a building when it is otherwise finished. He thinks it is a bit of unnecessary ornament. An architect is a planner who should be consulted from the beginning, and, if he is given a chance, he will design buildings worthier of our

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    people and our history than those which we have allowed to be erected in the 21 years which preceded the outbreak of this war. Nor has the Ministry of Health a very good reputation for the way it treated those local authorities which took some care in regard to their architecture. The city of Winchester took the trouble to turn down some particularly obnoxious mock-Elizabethan villas which would have ruined part of that fine city set in a beautiful countryside. The builders appealed to the Ministry, and the Ministry of Health insisted on a sloppy compromise in order that they might not displease any speculative builder.
    I have endeavoured to bring to the notice of the House some of the failures of our planning machinery which have been revealed in the 21 years preceding the outbreak of the war. Every one of those failures can be remedied, and I believe there is a general determination that they shall be remedied. There must be—and I believe it is an almost universal plea—a central planning authority. It must exercise far more authority and power than is exercised at present over local authorities. Local authorities which retain planning powers must be authorities for different areas from those of existing planning authorities. I do not think that a rural district council is a suitable planning authority; we must have larger units. I would much rather have a county council than a rural district council as a planning authority for an area. Whatever the Central Government authority that may be set up, it must at least exercise the existing powers of the Office of Works, the planning powers of the Ministry of Health under the existing Acts and any necessary amendment to them and the powers of the Ministry of Transport concerning ribbon development. I am not asking the Government to rush into a decision before it has weighed all the facts, as I believe it is now doing. But that is the very minimum which I desire to see. I should like to express my most emphatic disagreement with the suggestion of the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Sir J. Walker-Smith) that the Ministry should get on with various immediate jobs during the war and plan certain post-war things, and that then the whole thing could be handed over to the Ministry of Health.
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    That is not good enough. It is impossible, among other reasons, because the Ministry of Health has no power of initiating planning. Is it sense to have in one department those who initiate plans and in another those who have knowledge of the working of existing plans? It is not a practical division. You must have ultimately in one department those who are thinking out the machinery of planning and those who have direct knowledge and experience of the working of existing plans. We know from our experience of the past that these points are vital if we are to be wiser in the future. I believe nothing will cause us more shame than the way in which we treated town and country in the 21 years after 1918. I believe there is a widespread determination that that scandal shall cease. It should have ceased long ago. It seems to me in direct defiance of the greatest principles both of the Conservative and the Socialist parties: the Conservative party, which believes above all in preserving those things which are of value—and the beauty and dignity of our native land are of great value—and the Socialist party, which at least has this admirable principle in its beliefs, that there are imponderable values more important than money and values which you cannot cast away without casting away part of the things for which you live. The principles of Socialism and Conservatism are alike outraged by what we have permitted. I beg Ministers to ensure by their endeavours that that scandal shall not be continued or repeated.
    The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): I agree with a very great deal that has fallen from my hon. Friend, who invariably shows great knowledge of this subject and a great passion for the beauty of the country, which I hope we all share. His admonitions to the Government are suitably received, and in future we will try to do better. I hope we shall not be guilty of any error of taste. The Government welcome this Debate, and especially the spirit in which it has been conducted. I should like it to have been witnessed by some Gestapo agent, to show how a civilised country with black spots upon its character is trying to eradicate its blackness in a spirit of harmony and good will. The House will not expect me to go into any detail

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    with regard to the many points which have been raised. I can assure hon. Members that all the suggestions that have been made will be matters of very earnest consideration by my Noble Friend Lord Reith, myself and the many other Ministers who, in one way or another, are involved in this great planning problem. The Debate has been of great personal value to me. My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) said he did not envy me my job, and I think that with the overflowing sympathy which I have received to-day it is at least a job which is worth the effort. I think that we shall find that out of this time of tragedy some good may come,
    I am, speaking personally, very gratified, because the House has shown that it has a keen eye for the future. It is vital, as my hon. Friend and other Members have said, that our energies should be devoted to the war effort, but that is not to say that our minds should not be turning to the fulfilment of our victory in the days of peace. Men and women fight now not merely to defend the achievements of the past, but to protect and safeguard the hopes of the future. This war is an attack upon the very foundations of our national life. We have, by toil and sweat and out of the heat of the furnace of public discussion in this House and outside, built up liberties which we mean to keep, for on them triumphant democracy can march to greater achievements in future. Therefore, we fight today so as to live for a better future. That is the attitude in which the Government are approaching this vast series of problems which we shall have to solve before the war ends. The problems of tomorrow are looming up before us now, but we cannot expect to separate the present fateful moments from the many tomorrows. Therefore, I feel that, subject to the over-mastering requirements of the war effort, we should do nothing during the struggle to prejudice the making of the future. The appointment of the Uthwatt Committee is an attempt now, while there is a possibility, to prevent evil being done to-day by speculation in bomb craters and in landed property for the advantage of individual greed, regardless of the future public good.
    The establishment of the Ministry of Works and Buildings was an indication of
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    the Government's concern for post-war Britain. In a sense I was in at the birth of this Department and might almost be described as one of the midwives. I follow the work of my Noble Friend with great interest and sympathy and with full support. My hon. Friend has explained that the Ministry of Works and Buildings has war work to do. While my Noble Friend is taking and has taken the necessary steps, in collaboration with his colleagues, to begin to arrange for the physical rehabilitation and reconstruction of our land, he must at this moment bend his energies to bringing succour to the bombed areas. This is vital ambulance work and, I know, stands very high in the priorities of the duties inside the Ministry of Works and Buildings. More than that he cannot actually do at this stage.
    As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out in his very full account of the work of the Department, it is impossible to promote building to take place during the war unless that building is directly associated with the war effort; for two reasons, partly the use of materials and partly the call upon labour. I would add this further reason: I have myself always opposed any attempt at rebuilding during the war because I do not think we ought to reduplicate the lay-out of the areas which have been destroyed in so many towns without thinking it all out afresh. That he will do. We have begun to get ready for the day when we start on the very big job of obliterating the scars of the war on our country and begin the task of making the most of our physical resources.
    The House has shown its great interest in this problem of planning. Planning is a word which may become a shibboleth. To utter it seems to give a deep comfort to many people who, perhaps, do not appreciate all its implications. I believe in planning, and having had to face the planned economy of Hitler—because it has been a planned economy, from top to bottom, in every direction of human effort—I do not believe that after this war we can fall back into the easy days of go-as-you-please. Nor have I seen any indication on the part of the public to desire that we should return to those rather easy, loose and slack days. By planning I mean the pooling of our knowledge and experience so as to concert

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    measures which will ensure that the limited land of our small islands is used to the best in the national interest, and that our other national resources are conserved and maintained for the public advantage. I mean by planning the preservation of those beauties which, once gone, can never be restored. I mean by planning a proper relationship between industry and agriculture. These are enormous tasks which we have now to face.
    In this matter of physical planning my Noble Friend and other colleagues are in consultation. I cannot enlarge on other aspects of it at the moment, but I can say that the British Commonwealth of Nations and the Colonies, major combatants in the present struggle, must plan a common life in the future, so as to weld into an exemplary peaceful union peoples who share a common heritage and a common future. Indeed, we must plan to secure that, in the future, all freedom-loving peoples will be able, without hesitation, to rally to the help of any peoples who are threatened by aggression. They should plan on the broadest possible scale the best utilisation of the world's physical and economic resources in the interests of the peoples of the world. I say that in order to indicate that there are ranges of planning which lie outside the very valuable discussion that we have had.
    On the rather narrower field, I think it is agreed—almost universally in this House, at any rate—that planning there must be. The Government accept that conclusion, and my Noble Friend has a very large and vital part to play in the task of planning, in co-operation with the other Departments concerned. We have declared—my Noble Friend made the declaration in the House of Lords—that the Government have accepted the principle of a central planning authority. Suggestions have been made as to the form which that authority should take. My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. H. Strauss) was not inclined to press me very far. Indeed, there are so many considerations raised that I should prefer that my colleagues and I had more time to think about the nature, character, powers and constitution of the proposed new central authority. Its influence upon our national life will be so powerful in the future that we can well afford to take
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    our time in settling those matters. That is not to say that we can postpone the establishment of it until it is too late for it to be of any value. It means that we prefer to give the matter more thought until we come to the final conclusions.
    Reference has been made to regional organisation. I am not anxious to raise any hornets' nest if I can avoid doing so. I may not be completely successful, but at least I am not looking for trouble. It can be said of regional organisation that it has proved to be an essential part of the structure of Government in war-time. Out of this experience, it may be that a change will take place in the outlook of people in regard to regions. I well remember the passage of the Education Act, 1918, which proposed to set up regional councils for higher education. That part of the Act was a complete dead letter. I have never known local authorities to be enthusiastic regionalists, but the common adversity of war-time has, I think, brought them more closely together. It may well be that, out of this experience of the Civil Defence Regions, we may be able to get some kind of permanent machinery to handle problems of a regional character. No doubt, if that were so, it would have its repercussions upon the State as well as upon local authorities.
    How are we considering this question of national planning and all that it involves? Reference has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street and other speakers to the Report of the Royal Commission on the distribution of the industrial population. The House must remember that that Report was not published until January, 1940. We had then been at war four months. At the time I was not a member of the Government, but I think it would be unreasonable to have expected the Government and the various Departments concerned to have given that problem much attention in those early days of the war. But the time has now arrived when we have to consider the Report and when we have to consider it in the light of the rushing, rapid industrial changes which have taken place during the pre-war years and during the war years. I therefore asked the Departments concerned if they would examine the Report—the majority and the minority Reports—from the point of view of their own particular duties and responsibilities.

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    That has been done, and we are now considering the next stage. The matter is now well launched, and a definite Government policy will, I hope, be reached without undue delay.
    Another aspect which has been dealt with time and time again during fee Debate, and which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, is the problem of the land. At this stage I do not want to raise any controversial issues, but it is clear—and it has been so expressed by every speaker—that you cannot plan unless you have some solution to the land problem. I am not pretending to put forward an answer at this stage. I am only saying that a planned economy of the land means some form of control of land use. That matter is now under active consideration by the expert Committee which was set up by my Noble Friend Lord Reith under Mr. Justice Uthwatt, to probe into the very complex questions which hitherto in our legislation we have not solved—questions of compensation and the difficulties which may arise from speculation in land values during the war. That seemed to me at the time to be a workmanlike way of beginning our consideration of this very large and difficult problem, and one hopes that the report will be received without undue delay. Indeed, I understand that the Committee has made very extensive progress with its investigations.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) asked for a definition of my relations with my Noble Friend. Our relations, I may say, continue to be friendly; indeed, they have never been anything else, nor have I any reason to believe that they will ever deteriorate. I think that it is clear from what I have said to-day that Lord Reith's task deals with the physical aspect of all these big problems of rebuilding our towns and our countryside. It is a part of a task which is wide in its scope. That task, at any rate for the time being, falls under my guidance. The Ministry of Works and Buildings is a new Department, a Department which, in my view, and I think in the view of most Members of the House, is bound to become more rather than less important in the future. Other Departments, and there are many of them, are endeavouring, in co-operation with the Ministry of Works and Buildings, to work out the part that each
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    of them is to play in the making of the future. My partners in the great task are anxious to give of their best. They are concerned with me in mobilising all that is best in our national life, and in using what we have learned from the war so as to wring out of our present trials and tragedies a better Britain and a better world.
    My hon. Friend, in very moving words towards the end of his speech, spoke about maintaining the present mood. Reconstruction after the war is only for human beings. The whole purpose of reconstruction is the enrichment of the life of our people, and it would be a sad thing if we so failed in our duties and responsibilities that the present fine temper of the people were allowed to evaporate at the end of the war. A people such as our people have proved themselves to be during these stirring months is a people worthy of a great future. If we play fair by them, if we hold out no hopes that may be illusory, if we offer to them a decent, civilised life and that measure of security to which as citizens of this powerful State they are entitled, I am sure that after victory they will march over the threshold of peace with pride of step and hearts eager to reap in a new human happiness the harvest sown in their trials and tribulations.
    Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a Second time.
    Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for the next Sitting Day. — [Major Dugdale.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (LEASING OF BASES, DEBATE).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." — [Major Dugdale].
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: I wish to raise a point of which I have given considerable notice to the Government and about which there has been considerable discussion, namely, the refusal of the Government to allow this House an opportunity of knowing something about the administration of the bases which it is proposed—and in my opinion quite rightly proposed—to hand

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  over to the United States of America. In my opinion, not only is the future of the struggle in which we are engaged bound up in the friendship between the United States of America and ourselves, but the future happiness of the world, and of mankind, will depend on the closest cooperation and friendship, which I hope will exist for all time, between the two nations. Nobody is a stauncher or more convinced believer in the utmost friendship and co-operation with that great country than I am. We are proposing for our mutual benefit and security, to hand over to the United States of America certain portions of British possessions, so that they may be used as bases. It is quite right that that should be done.
  It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." — [Major Dugdale.]
  Sir A. Southby: But this House of Commons is concerned with those portions of the British Empire which are not self-governing. Therefore, we have not only a privilege, but a duty to perform. In my opinion it would not be right that agreement should be finally reached concerning the future of the peoples who inhabit these areas without this House of Commons having an opportunity to express its opinions, its wishes, and its hopes to the Prime Minister and those who are guiding the destinies of the country and the British Empire at the present time. I cannot see any reason why the Prime Minister should not, in Secret Session, take this House, as far as may Be possible, into his confidence, so that he might hear what responsible Members of this House have to say upon the subject. I cannot for a moment imagine that any harm could possibly be done to the excellent relations which exist between the two peoples at the present time. After all, our counterpart on the other side of the Atlantic, the Foreign Relations Committee, has a function to perform—and performs it most excellently —and it, no doubt, has had an opportunity of discussing this very subject. I cannot see, therefore, why the House of Commons should not have equal facilities. There is no question of discussing
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  the policy of handing over the Bases, because I do not think there is a soul in the country who is not agreed upon that. There is no question of discussing anything which could in the least create doubts and difficulties at a time when everybody should be doing his best to help the ship of State along, in the prosecution of the war. At this moment I am not concerned with the details, or even with the broad outlines, of the Agreement. All I am concerned with is the fact that the Executive have stubbornly refused to allow this House of Commons to express any views at all. In my humble submission, the Prime Minister, who has the support of all of us, might well be fortified in his task by hearing what some Members have to say. So short a time ago as on 6th March, my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, in reply to a Question, said:
  "It is impossible to stop Government business in the middle of a war so that everything can be brought up for discussion by this House"—
  everybody will agree with that.
  "But an opportunity will be given to this House for discussing all major matters." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1941; col. 1026, Vol. 369.]
  There could hardly be anything more major than this. We are doing something which has never been done before. We are parting with portions of the British Empire, and with the people in them. As those people have only us as their guardians, I think it is right that we should know in broad detail what it is proposed should be the future of those people, and what rights they are going to possess. At present, they are citizens of the British Empire. It cannot be right, when we are fighting for democracy and the right of free peoples to express their views, for the Government to come to a major decision of this kind, which will have most far-reaching effects, without giving the House of Commons the opportunity, which is their right, of expressing their views. It is not a bit of good coming to the House when everything is signed, sealed and delivered, and saying, "Here it is; take it or leave it." We are a council of State. Of course, we shall support the Executive in anything they do; but they also have a duty towards us and that is to allow us, as far as in their power lies, to express our views, and to make helpful suggestions. I suggest that a Secret Session is the proper time and the proper

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  way in which this matter can be discussed before a final and irrevocable settlement is come to. I would not for one moment advocate that necessarily every detail should be disclosed by the Prime Minister —obviously, when a momentous decision of this kind is being come to, it is not right that every detail should be discussed —but what I do say is that the Prime Minister might well hear what we had to say even if he did not speak himself in the Debate. If he heard what Members had to say and learned of their doubts and fears, he could then go away fortified for further negotiations. I think I can stand before my fellow Members of the House absolved from any question of having raised this matter precipitately. I raise it, I hope, with as much courtesy and considerations for the difficulties of the time as any responsible Member of Parliament could do. But I cannot square it with my conscience to stand in this House and not raise my voice in protest that before anything so big is done, this House of Commons shall be denied any opportunity whatever of expressing its views
  I do know something of the United States of America. I know that the people of the United States of America are proud of their freedom and are perfectly prepared to allow freedom to other peoples. They do appreciate frank statements of opinion. I believe they have immense respect and regard for the way this country is behaving at the present time. They have a tremendous respect for this House of Commons and I do not for one moment believe that there is a soul in the United States of America but who would say that this House of Commons was expressing a perfectly right and sensible opinion when it asks that it should be given time to discuss this question of the administration of the leased bases. I make this point clear again because it is not to the policy of the transfer that I object because to that I for one heartily subscribe, and I wish it God speed. Indeed, it is not every detail of the transfer that I am troubled about: but we should discuss some of the questions of administration that must come to the mind of every hon. Member in this House, and what the future is going to hold for the peoples of the leased territories. It is only these questions on which I say that I and other Members of the
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  House have a right to be heard before the signatures are put to this document.
  I do not suppose that there is a soul in this House who has not from time to time heard the taunt levelled against Members of the House of Commons that they never stand up and do what is right at the proper time; that things arc allowed to go by default when they should have stopped them and made themselves heard. It is not always very easy for a Member to stand up and express his views. I heard my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister say himself, and not so long ago, that the causes he espoused were not always the popular ones, and those he took up were not always those which commended themselves to other Members of the House. Nobody would deny his courage in that matter, but I think, were he sitting to-day where I am, he would be doing what I am myself trying to do at this moment. I must register my protest that this House of Commons should not under proper conditions with ever desire to help and in no way to hinder, and while showing our great appreciation of the kindliness and helpfulness that has come from the other side of the Atlantic, be given some opportunity of discharging our duty to those citizens of the British Empire whose fate is bound up in this Agreement and who only have us to look to as the guardians of their liberties and of their future.
  Sir Stanley Reed: I would not like it to go forth from this House that the point of view held by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) is the only point of view that is held by Members on this side of the House. I am sorry to say that I must differ entirely from the argument he has put before the House, and I must do so on what I suggest are grounds of history, Constitutional practice and the present state of the world, particularly in the Western Atlantic. I would point out in the first place that Treaty-making rights are vested in the Crown and the function of Parliament is to accept or reject a Treaty when it is concluded I might have joined my hon. and gallant Friend if he had taken the ground that this agreement is bad in itself and should not, therefore, be carried out; but I understand that he entirely approves the Treaty. Well, to accept the major and

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  substantial element, and then to desire that this House shall discuss, now and at this stage, the technical details, of which it cannot be fully cognisant, and on which only the Government can be fully cognisant, is a point of view that I cannot, with all respect, support.
  Sir A. Southby: That is not what I said. I did not say that we should discuss the technical details. I said that we should be allowed to express our views before a decision is come to by the Executive.
  Sir S. Reed: That is more illogical than ever. If you do not discuss the details, what will you discuss? If you express wholehearted support of this statesmanlike measure, what will be discussed when it comes to the other points in the agreement, which must be points of more or less technical detail of which we are not, and cannot be, fully seized? Above all, the worst possible course that we could pursue at the present time would be to discuss this Treaty in Secret Session. If we are to discuss it, let us discuss it in the open and say exactly what we have to say. If we discuss the matter in secret, it will be playing into the hands of a limited section who may oppose the action we are taking now by enabling them to say that we want to say in secret what we dare not say in public. Having accepted the principle of the Treaty, no useful purpose whatever, I submit, would be served by having a public Debate on matters of detail upon which we cannot be fully conversant, and the disadvantages of a secret Debate must be obvious to everybody.
  I share with my hon. and gallant Friend his keen anxiety to see that our fellow British subjects are amply protected under any transfer of authority; but when he talks about citizens of the Empire he is talking about "Mrs. 'Arrises"; there are no "sich" persons. We and they are subjects of the Crown and not citizens of the Empire. I think Constitutional lawyers would reject in toto his definition. We are, of course, all anxious to protect their interests; but who is there in this House, having given wholehearted support to the Prime Minister and the Executive, who will dare to say that the future of our fellow subjects, in whom we are so keenly interested, is not safe in their
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  hands? I must decline absolutely to express any doubts on that subject, because I feel completely certain that the destinies of those people are perfectly safe in the hands of those in whom we have placed our fullest trust and our fullest confidence at this great juncture in our Imperial history.
  This agreement seems to me to be one of the biggest things we have done in our Imperial history. I have lived abroad for some time, and I have often had to deplore that this country has so often done right things in the wrong way—that having taken a big decision it has been niggardly, argumentative and querulous over details. I think that, having taken this big decision—I gather with the full approval of my hon. and gallant Friend and the whole of the House—the last thing we want to do is to cloud that big decision by arguments and details which we cannot have the full knowledge and authority to discuss. Therefore, with great respect. I must differ from my hon. and gallant Friend. I feel just as strongly as he does on this matter. I say that we should remit this question with full confidence to those in whom we have placed our trust and who have great tasks of State to fulfil and a great burden to carry. I cannot see that any useful purpose would be served by a public discussion, and I would deplore above everything else a secret discussion of this question at this time, for it would certainly be open to the gravest misinterpretation in quarters of the globe where we do not want the faintest doubt or misunderstanding to arise at the present time.
  Mr. Stokes: I wish to make it clear that I do not dispute in any way the advisability or wisdom of the Treaties which are now contemplated, but I join with the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) in submitting that it would be to the advantage of the people concerned and the advantage of the Government, and would be in accordance with the historic importance of this House, that we should be given an opportunity of discussing what is to take place and stating to the Government our views on the terms proposed before the documents are actually signed. In listening to the speech of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed), I thought he was in a contradictory state of mind. First, he cavilled at the suggestion of the hon.

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  and gallant Member for Epsom that a Debate should take place in Secret Session, meaning therefore that any Debate should be in public; and then he went on to say that he did not want any public Debate either. I am not prepared to accept that supine state of mind. We have our responsibilities to the people who inhabit these Colonial possessions, and 1 think it would both stimulate and reinforce the powers of the Government to know what are the views of the House.
  Personally, I take the view, which is not necessarily shared by the majority of hon. Members, that no harm whatever would be done by having a public Debate on the points I would like to raise. I have for a long time taken the view that the Treaty-making rights of the Crown should be abrogated. That may not be the general view. However, I suggest that we are really on the point of under taking a commercial transaction. We are about to sell parts of our Colonial possessions in exchange for certain goods that we require. It comes to that. We had better face the facts and not pretend that we are indulging in any high and mighty moral issue. We are not doing, anything of the sort. In exchange for certain facilities which are to be provided for us, we propose to sell up part of the British Empire. I do not contest that point at all. Probably it is a prudent and wise thing to do, but we have accepted our responsibilities towards the people who live in those territories, and I am particularly concerned —
  Mr. Lipson: Does the hon. Member realise that in the opinion of the United States these bases are vital to their own safety, and does he not consider that their safety is a matter of great concern to us?
  Mr. Stokes: I am not disputing that for a single moment. I say that there are certain aspects—an attitude of mind of our friends across the Atlantic towards these inhabitants—which ought to be safeguarded in this House. I am thinking of the colour bar, and I should like to satisfy myself that proper protection has been afforded to these people, when this Treaty is signed. Another matter which has been discussed in the islands, and which has been referred to in the newspapers—I say it at the risk of being accused of King Charles's head—is that as a result of all this work there is going
  262
  to be a very great change in the value of possessions in the islands. I should like to know what will be the effect, and who will derive the benefit as the result of this work. My hon. and gallant Friend and myself have been interested in this subject for some time, and we have sought for assurances and have had half assurances and have been put off—we agree that when the Lease and Lend Bill was not through it was difficult to raise the point. My submission to the Government is that unless an opportunity is given to discuss this question, it is yet another example of the Gestapo methods of the present Government. [Interruption.] Whenever we raise anything which is inconvenient it is always termed as not in the public interest or we are told that there is a war on. I personally protest against the idea that we should allow the Executive to give chunks of our Colonial possessions away without first coming to this House, and I support what my hon. and gallant Friend has said in opening this Debate.
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: There is one unfailing guide in this House of how to make up one's mind if one needs assistance, and that is my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), for whom I have the greatest personal regard, because he is always wrong. Never was he more wrong, to my mind, than at this moment. His perfectly audible speech was a perfect ex ample of the unfortunate nature of the Debate which would take place if this matter were discussed. His statement that we are buying with territories in the Empire what we need is a pettifogging attorney's attitude at one of the greatest and most inspiring moments in our history. Had my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) attended the lunch yesterday —
  Sir A. Southby: I was not asked.
  Mr. Baxter: Had he attended the lunch for the new American Ambassador, he would have realised that the speeches showed that at last the great Continent of America—a Continent slow to come to a decision, but moving with irresistible power when it does so come—is now in this war and is coming to our rescue. We need her help, and this is the birth of this Anglo-Saxon understanding—the future of the world is embodied in it. At such

  263
  a moment are we going to say to America, "Wait a minute, the Parliament of Great Britain wants to talk about terms and colour bars, and nigger problems, and who gets the contracts''? All these wealthy Socialists always have contracts. And so I deplore the attitude of my hon. and gallant Friend. He has fought his case well, but it is a wretched case and should never have been raised.
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): I make no complaint that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) has raised what is a very important issue. The Prime Minister has said very often in this House that he is desirous of giving every possible opportunity of debating fully and under the best possible conditions matters which it desires to raise. The gravamen of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's case was that the Prime Minister had refused the House's request for a Secret Session on this subject. I think he went rather far in speaking for this House. As far as I could gather, it seemed to be more the request of two hon. Members, and, with all respect to them, they are not the whole House.
  Sir A. Southby: The right hon. Gentleman knows that that is not quite so.
  Mr. Attlee: The short point is that there is only limited time and the Government have to try to find out what is the desire of the House. I do not think that up to the present there has been a general desire to discuss this question, but I am authorised by the Prime Minister to say that, if there is a desire to discuss it in public or in private, the Government will, of course, meet the House and give them the time they require. I am bound to say that I was not quite clear as to exactly what the points were that
  264
  my hon. and gallant Friend wanted to discuss. I do not think anyone has suggested, certainly not he, that there was any question of general principle. Indeed, I was not quite sure how it would be possible to raise the matter effectively unless he had the whole instrument before him. It is a fact that this House has the right to reject agreements made by the Executive, but it has never claimed to have put before it information on negotiations while the negotiations were going on. It would be impossible to negotiate in those conditions. It is no use trying to draw analogies with countries which have very different Constitutions. The position in the United States is entirely different. It is impossible for me to say that the House should have a Debate on this matter before an agreement has been signed. All I can say is that the Government will do their best, if there is a general desire, to give time for a full Debate on the question. But I think no Government can tie themselves down in the way suggested, that is to say, that, while negotiations are going; on, details should be discussed in the House. It would not be right that that should be done in Secret Session. The hon. Member was right in saying that if we want to discuss this matter let us discuss it in the open, but we cannot discuss the details and implications—because it does come down to details—and the modification of a Treaty of this sort on the Floor of the House. We cannot discuss whether the United States should follow the doctrine of the colour bar or not, for example. I leave it at that, namely, that when the House desires to debate the matter, the Government will be prepared to meet the House.
  It being the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

  SIR HENRY IRVING MEMORIAL, WESTMINSTER.
  SIR HENRY IRVING MEMORIAL, WESTMINSTER.
  ARMED FORCES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
  ARMED FORCES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE.
  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE.
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.
  BINOCULARS.
  BINOCULARS.
  MOTOR-CARS.
  MOTOR-CARS.
  TRANSPORT (ORGANISATION).
  TRANSPORT (ORGANISATION).
  JAMAICA (KINGSTON, COMPLAINT).
  JAMAICA (KINGSTON, COMPLAINT).
  GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (WARSHIPS).
  GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (WARSHIPS).
CIVIL DEFENCE.
  FIRE-BOMB FIGHTERS, LONDON (HELMETS).
  FIRE-BOMB FIGHTERS, LONDON (HELMETS).
  EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE.
  EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE.
BRITISH ARMY.
  AUXILIARY TERRITORIAL SERVICE.
  AUXILIARY TERRITORIAL SERVICE.
  INTELLIGENCE TEST.
  INTELLIGENCE TEST.
  COURTS-MARTIAL.
  COURTS-MARTIAL.
NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.
  CASUALS.
  CASUALS.
  SUPPLEMENTARY REGISTER.
  SUPPLEMENTARY REGISTER.
  ROYAL NAVY (ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT, COMPLAINT).
  ROYAL NAVY (ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT, COMPLAINT).
MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.
  REGIONAL PERIODICALS.
  REGIONAL PERIODICALS.
  BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR INTERNATIONAL UNDERSTANDING (BULLETIN).
  BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR INTERNATIONAL UNDERSTANDING (BULLETIN).
  AIR-RAID DEFENCES (MEMORANDUM).
  AIR-RAID DEFENCES (MEMORANDUM).
  PRESS SUMMARIES.
  PRESS SUMMARIES.
  PERIODICALS IN GERMAN.
  PERIODICALS IN GERMAN.
  CANALS (INQUIRY).
  CANALS (INQUIRY).
Preamble
The House met, The LORD DENMAN on the Woolsack.

KITCHEN WASTE.
LORD DAVIES rose LORD DAVIES rose to ask His Majesty's Government what is the estimated annual tonnage of kitchen waste or swill in Great Britain including the food refuse of military establishments; what proportion of this total is systematically collected by local authorities, and what steps are being taken to convert and utilise all kitchen waste and offal for animal feeding stuffs; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have put this Motion on the Paper because I believe that one of the most important problems with which we are faced, and one which will become increasingly more pressing, is the problem of our food supply, how to maintain it, and how it may be possible to increase our home production. I am sure it is unnecessary for me to labour this point. We all realise its supreme importance, and Cabinet Ministers have warned the country from time to time of the vital necessity of utilising every conceivable means in order to increase and conserve our stocks of food. We also realise the strain which is being imposed upon our Merchant Navy, and the need for saving every available inch of space in our ships for the transport of munitions, raw materials, and other indispensable cargoes. Obviously the more food we produce at home the less shipping space will be needed for importing supplies from abroad. Unfortunately the losses sustained by our Merchant Navy, especially during recent weeks, make it more imperative than ever that we should utilise every scrap of material to the best advantage and that nothing should be wasted. This applies, I suggest, especially to the production of meat.
One would have imagined that after eighteen months of war, when everyone could read the writing on the wall, the most strenuous efforts would be made to

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ensure that waste of every kind should be eliminated from our national economy. Quite recently, your Lordships are aware, there has been a very drastic cut in the amount of imported feeding stuffs, and we have been warned that the present ration may be still further reduced. It is for this reason that I want to ask the Government what is the estimated annual tonnage of kitchen waste or swill in Great Britain, including the food refuse of military establishments, what proportion of this total is systematically collected by local authorities, and what steps are being taken to convert and utilise all kitchen waste and offal for animal feeding stuffs.
Some weeks ago our attention was drawn to this subject by a letter which appeared in The Times, written by my honourable friend Mr. R. C. Morrison, who represents the Borough of Tottenham in another place. In this letter Mr. Morrison described the methods adopted by the Tottenham local authority to convert the kitchen waste collected in the borough into fodder, which I understand makes excellent material for the feeding not only of pigs but also of poultry and cattle. About a fortnight ago I paid a visit to the salvage works at Tottenham and saw the plant at work. I venture to recommend your Lordships to go there, because I discovered that it was a most interesting and stimulating experience. It really is a most wonderfully organised and carefully planned enterprise and, if I may say so, reflects the greatest credit upon the local authority and their officials.
Nothing is wasted. Paper, tins, rags, bones and even the ashes are all salvaged and sold as raw materials to various industries. The kitchen waste is cooked in a boiler for two hours at a temperature of 200 degrees. This ensures that the feeding stuff when it emerges from the boiler is free of any disease or contamination. It is then poured into containers and left to cool for twelve hours. It comes out like a jelly out of a mould, and looks rather like an enormous plum pudding, though I confess it does not smell like one. It is then sold to farmers and pig breeders at £4 a ton, which I was told gives the local authority a profit of about £1 a ton on the processing and relieves the waste department
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of the cost of burning it. The point I want to try and emphasize is this, that if every local authority in this country emulated the example of Tottenham, there would be a considerable increase in the amount of food available for animals, especially for pigs, which would help to make up the deficiency of imported feeding stuffs.
This is what Mr. Morrison, who has gone into this matter and investigated it very thoroughly, says in a letter to The Times:
"The melancholy fact remains that after eighteen months of war, in which it was obvious from the outset that shipping space would be vital, there is no collection of kitchen waste from more than half the population of this country."
I submit to your Lordships that this is a very serious indictment of the policy hitherto pursued by the Government. Since Mr. Morrison's letter appeared a number of questions have been asked in another place and I cannot help feeling that the replies only confirm Mr. Morrison's statement. It is clear from the answers that the waste complained of by Mr. Morrison still continues, and that the Ministry of Supply are dealing with it in a slipshod and half-hearted fashion, after eighteen months of war, and at a moment when it is imperative that every ounce of kitchen waste should be salvaged, processed and used for feeding purposes. For instance, on March 6, figures were given in another place which showed that according to the records of the Salvage Department of the Ministry of Supply, 680 local authorities with a population of over 10,000 each, including 316 rural districts, were not on January 31 making any collection at all of kitchen waste. Several Metropolitan and county boroughs are included in this list. As your Lordships are aware, the total number of local authorities in England, Scotland and Wales is 1,864, from which it appears that more than one-third of their number have taken no direct action to ensure the elimination of waste.
That is the first deduction to be drawn from the replies that were given in another place. The second is this. The Government have issued a statement indicating the quantities of kitchen waste collected and sold by various local authorities in the counties of Middlesex, Surrey and Yorkshire during the month

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of January last, which illustrates the haphazard way in which this problem is now being dealt with. During that particular month of January the quantity collected and sold in the borough of Tottenham works out at approximately 25 cwts. per thousand of the pre-war population. Your Lordships realise that populations in the boroughs and even in the rural districts in these days are very fluctuating quantities on account of the evacuations that take place from time to time, but the point is that if every local authority had maintained the same standard as Tottenham, on the basis of 25 cwts. per thousand of their populations the actual results would have been very different.
Now what do we find? Let me give your Lordships a few examples. There is Croydon, for instance, with a population of 233,000, and, therefore, on the basis of 25 cwts. per thousand, having a collectable capacity of 291 tons. The amount actually sold by Croydon in the month of January was 5 tons only. Wembley, with a population of 48,000 and a collectable capacity of 61 tons, sold only 7 tons. Sheffield, with a population of 500,000 and a collectable capacity of 640 tons, sold 41 tons. Huddersfield, with a population of 113,000 and a capacity of 141 tons, sold 8 tons. I could go on citing many more examples of a similar kind, but in the aggregate the authorities concerned collected 1,893 tons against a possible 4,492 tons had they set about it in the same way as the Tottenham authority. The total deficiency was, therefore, no less than 2,599 tons the month of January. In other words, this group of authorities collected during the month of January only 42 per cent. of what could have been collected if they had set about it on Tottenham's scale.
I have pointed out that the Tottenham authority, in January, collected kitchen waste to the amount of 25 cwts. per thousand of the population. I am informed, however, by the authorities there that the amount now being collected in March works out at between 35 cwts. and 2 tons per thousand of the population, and that it is possible even to improve upon that figure. It follows that if the urban populations of the country are calculated at about 25,000,000, and if all the local authorities had followed the example of Tottenham and had collected and processed their kitchen waste, the
834
monthly output for the whole country would amount to approximately 43,750 tons, or a yearly collectable total of 525,000 tons. I understand that one ton of the Tottenham product will maintain fifty pigs for a week, that is, shall we say, one pig a year. Thus the total quantity that could be collected from the urban population of the whole country would be sufficient to maintain about 525,000 pigs, or nearly one-seventh of our pre-war pig population which, in 1939, was estimated at about 3,750,000. As I have said, the Tottenham processed product is sold at £4 a ton. The national collectable quantity, if dealt with in the same way, would be worth about £2,000,000. In 1938 the value of all imported animal feeding stuffs was approximately £11,500,000. Thus, by an intelligent reorganisation in the present emergency, we could produce at home from kitchen waste about one-sixth of our former imports of feeding stuffs.
I think I have made it clear that the present position is utterly unsatisactory and that an enormous amount of waste is still permitted to go on. The Department, however, seem to regard the position with their usual complacency. The Minister of Agriculture said:
"I cannot accept that there is any lack of drive. We are, in fact, collecting the greater part of the waste food available in this country to-day, and what is left is merely a small part."
Then I read an article in The Times which informed us that the Ministry of Supply are calling for a new salvage campaign. In a recent article The Times said:
"The results obtained last year are regarded as satisfactory, but greater efforts are required."
Of course it may be true—I have no doubt it is true—that the local authorities, or at any rate the majority of them, have been very slack, but surely it is the duty of the Government to keep them up to the mark and, if necessary, to exercise compulsory powers. We all know that local authorities have very many urgent matters to attend to in these days, and this saving of food wastage is one which is perhaps apt to be overlooked. For my part I do not believe that the job will be tackled properly, energetically and speedily unless the utilisation of waste food is put on a national basis.
Why should not the Minister of Supply —or it may be the duty of the Minister of Agriculture—why should not one or the other constitute a separate section or an ad hoc organisation with compulsory powers to deal with it? Let this Department instal the processing plants in the most convenient centres and employ the existing refuse collecting services of the authorities. I understand that at present the Tottenham authority purchase waste food from Islington and other neighbouring boroughs. I venture to suggest that a central authority could group local authorities for this purpose and thus obviate the danger of erecting too many plants, and avoid overlapping. Another suggestion I would venture to make is that, in order to save the cost of transport, pigs, when they reach a certain age, should be brought to the food instead of taking the food to the pigs. Or, if the Government do not wish to undertake the job, why not constitute a public utility company with compulsory powers?
The main point, I suggest, is that whoever is made responsible for the collection and conversion of kitchen waste into fodder for animals should have had some previous experience and know precisely what has to be done and how to do it; otherwise, they will spend many months in learning the ramifications of this business. Those people who have carried out the Tottenham experiment so successfully are the people who could be relied upon to apply the same methods on a national scale, and to do it quickly without any loss of time. Therefore, I venture very humbly to suggest to the noble Lord opposite that what is wanted is action, not conferences. If the local authorities will not or cannot come up to the scratch, let someone else be appointed to do the job for them and thus ensure that in this critical period of our history every household in the land is given an opportunity of preventing waste and thus of adding to the food supplies of our country. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I am sure the House is under a real obligation to the noble Lord for having brought up this subject. Every one of us, certainly those who live in the country and who are in touch with agricultural matters, knows, I am sure, that what he has said is true. In the main it is a happy-go-lucky business,
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which appears to have depended, to a great extent anyhow, upon exhortations to local authorities, sporadic outbursts on the wireless and the issue of very nicely-written and well-distributed circulars. But nobody knows better, I am sure, than the noble Lord who is going to put up as good a reply as he can for the Ministry, that that is not the way to get a job of work done. That is why this job of work has not been done efficiently. As recently as Friday of last week I was engaged as chairman of my county war agricultural committee in a conference upon this very matter.
There is no doubt that what is wanted is an organised collection of the swill, and its treatment in sufficient bulk by processing plant big enough to be economical in working. Then, I am sure, there would be an enormous scramble for the product. At the present time a very large number of the keener farmers are doing their best to collect the waste, buying boilers or some kind of plant—on a small scale because they are doing it individually—and doing their very best. You cannot treat this material without boiling it and resolving it down to a considerable extent, and it is quite wrong, if you have an organised collection from hundreds or thousands of separate houses, that this waste should be dealt with in a happy-go-lucky way as it is in a large number of places. I am quite sure that the Ministry of Supply, so far as their own products are concerned, are exceedingly anxious to make the thing a success.
I well remember that in the last war I, myself, appointed Sir Alexander Walker, better known as the proprietor of Johnny Walker Whisky, and he was the most champion rag-and-bone merchant that ever was. He developed the collection of scrap—scrap iron and all kinds of scrap— into a finely organised and highly remunerative business. That is the point— it was highly remunerative. I think we want, shall we say, a "Johnny Walker" in charge of this job. I am sure that my noble friend is right in insisting that it should be taken in hand, departmentally or otherwise (I am not prescribing the method), by an organisation responsible to the Ministry, with authority either to amalgamate others or to set up regional organisations of an appropriate kind, which will not be dependent—as we cannot afford to be dependent—upon the

837
chance good will of an authority here or there.
The amount of material that is being wasted every week now, as everybody knows, is prodigious. Particularly is it important, now that the Ministry of Food for certain reasons—and I am not saying that they are not good reasons—are cutting down animal foodstuffs. I, myself, more than once have questioned the wisdom of the selection of poultry and pigs for what I may call decimation, but the more we are restricted in our imports—as we necessarily are—of foodstuff for pigs the greater is the urgency for doing this thing well. I am certain that there will be no difficulty whatever in finding a market for the product, and I should not wonder if the price went to more than £4 a ton. At any rate there is a good market waiting—every county war agricultural committee can testify to the truth of that statement—provided that the product is reliably processed and properly treated by people who understand the business. I rose for a minute or two only as one who has been concerned in a certain way in the business, to lend what support I could to my noble friend, and I am sure the House is under an obligation to him for raising this subject. I hope that the noble Lord who is going to reply will be given the chance of getting this job done properly.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I regret to say that owing to my participating in a welcome, in another place, to our very distinguished guests from the Netherlands, I was unable to be present to hear what my noble friend Lord Davies said, but I feel so very strongly upon this subject of waste of edible food—edible for human beings or for farm animals—that I feel bound, if only for a few minutes, to take part in this debate. I know that it is the custom, I am glad to say the growing custom, to compare what was done during the last war with what is being done now. In this connection the need for utilising all edible food is so much greater than it was, in view of the very serious trans-oceanic menace, even during the most critical period of the last war, at a time when I myself was acting as Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, that I feel it would be perfectly justifiable to ask the Government to take stronger measures than were adopted in that critical year, and not to
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leave to voluntary action what so many people in this country are clamouring to have made compulsory.
It seems to me that just as when a war develops you are bound to scrap the voluntary principle in the matter of national service, in the matter of service in the defence forces, so in this matter you are bound, I think, in response to growing opinion, particularly amongst the farming community, to scrap the voluntary system instead of leaving it to do what all the more enlightened individuals and public authorities are conscious ought to be done in this matter. Tottenham has set a noble example, and was very early in doing so on the initiative of its very enterprising and public-spirited Member of Parliament. Many other municipalities and some urban district councils have followed Tottenham's example. I am prepared to believe that there are between 300 and 400 urban district authorities doing their best to collect, sterilise and distribute waste food of which such an enormous quantity today goes into the incinerator or otherwise becomes unavailable for consumption by human beings or by animals.
It is really a very serious step for the Food Ministry to take to say: "We are quite prepared to sacrifice a very large proportion, possibly two-thirds, of our pig population, and a similar proportion of our poultry and to that extent to render extremely risky the continued provision of both bacon and eggs," while all the time there is available in thousands of homes a large amount of waste food that would enable both pigs and poultry to be maintained almost in their entirety, if not wholly. I was interested to notice this morning, in the columns of our chief agricultural newspaper the Farmer and Stockbreeder, an announcement reporting the opinion of Mr. Cyril Fox, Superintendent of the Sheffield Cleansing Department. He, with full knowledge of what is possible in that enlightened city, estimates that if all waste in uncooked vegetables, meat, bread, and certain other foods were carefully saved and collected, most of the country's 4,000,000 pigs could be kept alive and the nation's poultry could continue to produce eggs. I entirely endorse that enlightened and experienced opinion.
I want to ask the Government how they can reconcile the continuance of this fearful waste in face of the growing diminution of food of a concentrated character

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for which not merely are our farmers asking for their animals but human beings are beginning to demand in sufficient quantities. If I may, I should like to revert to what was the main burden of the arguments proferred here exactly a month ago on the subject of food supplies generally, when it was, I think, assented to by everyone in this House that the preference which is given to bullocks over pigs and poultry in the matter of a due quota of imported food was a wrong preference, and could not be justified from a scientific or from a dietetic point of view. I should like to remind the Government that the bullock depends, and ought in these days to depend, very largely on what can be raised on the surface of our own land, particularly if we are going to turn our pastures over very largely to arable production, thereby greatly intensifying the output of our temporary pastures.
Moreover, we ought surely to bear in mind that the bullock, when it comes to be slaughtered, leaves for the consumption of the public only something like 60 per cent. of its bulk; the rest is represented by offal. Compare that with the egg. Apart from the shell, the whole of the egg is very valuable and well-balanced human nutritive food. If you over-fatten the bullock in the way we expect in the case of animals which we see at the Smithfield Show, a large amount of food passes out of him as manure and does not make flesh at all. One is inclined to ask, therefore, what happens to all this waste food? If you are going to convert your bullock feed into manure to a large extent, or if it is going to pass into an incinerator, as so much of it does, how is it possible to justify treating pigs and poultry in the way in which it is proposed to treat them at the present time?
I should like to ask another question arising out of this matter of waste. We are told—and I am very glad to hear it— that milk is going to be forthcoming in larger quantities for the making of cheese. I do not know that anything has troubled our civilian working population more during the last few weeks than the lack of adequate supplies of cheese, particularly for their mid-day meal. In the course of making cheese, a large proportion of the substance of the milk passes away in the form of whey. I should like to know whether the Government mean to control
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the disposal of the whey which is available in such large quantities as the result of making cheese. It is a most valuable food; it is very valuable in the feeding of pigs, but it is also very valuable, as containing lactose or sugar of milk, for feeding infants and invalids. I believe I am right in saying that most invalid foods contain lactose. It is relatively scarce in this country; it has been imported in the past largely from New Zealand and other parts of the world. Cannot it be made a condition of the production of this additional cheese that at least the whey shall not go down the drain, but that it shall be rendered available either for animal or for human food?
It is this lack of thorough organisation of the production and disposal of our food in this country which troubles me more than anything else, as one who was part of the human machine which operated this Department during the last war. It has been announced to-day in the Press that milk is going to be rationed, and I should therefore like to ask the Government to consider whether it is really necessary for middle-aged people to have the same ration of milk as the very young, invalids, the very poor and the very old. I believe—a noble Lord present who is a distinguished member of the medical profession can correct me if I am wrong— that for those between twenty-five and sixty years of age, milk is relatively unimportant as a form of nutritive food, whereas relatively it must be of greater importance to very young people and to very old people. If that is so, is not there going to be a considerable waste of milk in this very critical time—a very critical time so far as food is concerned—if we give the same ration of milk to people of all ages?
I do not want to take up more of your Lordships' time, but I do most earnestly ask the Government, and not for the first time, to consider whether it is really fair, not merely to the public but to the pig-keepers and to the poultry-keepers, to allow the whole of this waste to go on in our towns without any compulsion being applied, and at the same time to allow such a large proportion of our pig and poultry population to go without adequate food, with the inevitable result that neither bacon nor eggs will be available in the future in anything like the quantities in which they have been available in the past. I must apologise to

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the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for being absent during his speech, but I had some reason to know what he was going to say, and from what I do know of it I endorse it.
House adjourned during pleasure, and resumed by the LORD CHANCELLOR.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I do not know that anybody could be more unhappy than I have been for a long time about the colossal indifference to waste shown in every circle in our country; at the same time, I cannot help thinking that the picture drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is rather more gloomy than the case demands. In going round the various local authorities and examining their methods of dealing with waste, one is struck by the great variation between one locality and another in the problems with which they have to deal. It would, I think, be a great mistake to base any extended scheme of salvage upon the experience of Tottenham alone. Even in London the salvage problem varies with a great many factors, one of which is the incidence of bombing, which interferes with salvage collection very much. In any case, there are at least seventy-five local authorities in this country who have schemes very similar to that at Tottenham, and who are doing very good work. I am not at all sure that the experience of the City of Edinburgh would not be a far better guide to the salvage problem of this country as a whole than the experience of Tottenham. Moreover, in discussing what local authorities are doing and in concentrating our gaze on that, we are forgetting one factor which enters into every department of salvage— namely, that the local authorities are expected to do the work while it is unremunerativc and difficult, but, as soon as you come to a district where salvage is obviously a paying proposition, you find that private enterprise steps in, collecting the materials, and paying for them, which the local authorities are unable to do.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, concluded his remarks by expressing the hope that if those at present in charge of salvage could not improve the work that they were doing, others would be appointed. It seems to me that if we are to go on in the way in which we are going, it docs not matter who is appointed, because as soon as anyone is put in charge of a
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department like salvage he is immediately overwhelmed with work, crushed down by multitudinous questions which have to be answered and dealt with straight away. Salvage is a highly scientific subject. It is one which requires more fore-thought and planning than almost any other department of social activity; and to put a man in charge of work like that and then overwhelm him with petty details of daily routine makes him hopeless. Whoever has charge of salvage, steps should be taken to relieve the actual salvage king of the enormous amount of detailed work that falls to his lot. What this task requires is somebody who has time to think. Instead of concentrating his thoughts on any particular thing, he ought to have time to reflect. If he has leisure for that purpose it will repay the country far more than the most concentrated endeavours of other men.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (LORD PORTAL): My Lords, you will be aware that a debate on practically the same subject as that raised by the noble Lord took place in another place last week after the noble Lord's Notice in this House had already been put down, and most of ray reply will have to be along the same lines as that given then. I should like to refer to the terms of the noble Lord's question, which inquires as to "the estimated annual tonnage of kitchen waste" in the country, "including the food refuse of military establishments," and asks what steps are being taken for the conversion and utilisation of this waste, particularly for animal feeding stuffs. Though I have no desire to shirk any responsibility for my own Ministry, your Lordships will understand that the speeches that have been made to-day have covered a very broad field—the spheres of the Ministry of Food, the Ministry of Agriculture, the War Office and the Ministry of Supply. I have now to try to answer on behalf of all those four Ministries, and if my reply should be inadequate your Lordships, will understand that in these busy times it is very difficult to cover the whole ground. The noble Lord referred to the question of eggs, which does not come under the Ministry of Supply. The noble Lord sitting opposite said very courteously that he thought I would like to run this on business lines, but I could not possibly cover

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the ramifications of four Ministries in trying to answer his rather difficult question.
As your Lordships are aware, the Ministry of Supply are responsible for the collection of salvage. In this case I have to reply also on behalf of the War Office and Ministry of Agriculture to questions raised by the noble Lord. The two points which the noble Lord raised— which of course must be discussed with His Majesty's Government—were these. The first was whether the persons responsible for the collection of salvage should have adequate knowledge for dealing with feeding stuffs, such as swill, and whether the matter should be put into the hands of experts. Both noble Lords opposite raised the question whether the greatest efforts were being made—and nobody is ever satisfied in these days with efforts that are being made. They asked whether we were satisfied with the voluntary organisation of this collection of salvage. That is a very large question, which I in my humble position as Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply am not in a position to answer; it must be referred to others.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, based his arguments wholly on the case of Tottenham. On behalf of the Ministry which I represent I should like to say what a great debt we owe to Tottenham and the representative of Tottenham for the lead they have given in this matter. But my figures lead from the whole to the part, rather than from the part to the whole. As the noble Lord will remember from the time when he learnt logic, that was the first thing you were taught. My reply will be based on the figures for the whole country. There are 395 local authorities, covering districts whose total population is over 23,000,000, which have organised collections of kitchen waste. As the noble Lord observed, that represents about half the population of the country. Collections from these sources are at the rate of 110,000 tons per annum. Private collections are operating in 1,200 districts, but the amounts collected are not known. Contractors also collect from hotels and restaurants, and although no figures are available, the tonnages so collected must be substantial.
The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, pointed in this connection to one of the difficulties.
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If you are a contractor, you take the best of this work and the rest may be left. That is a difficulty which is bound to arise when you are working on a voluntary basis. In the Borough of Westminster alone 574 tons were collected during January last. The estimated collection from military establishments is at the rate of 93,788 tons per annum. Before the war the figure of waste was estimated at 350,000 tons a year. This figure must naturally be reduced through rationing, and also for part of the refuse, such as orange and banana peel. I am not trying to make an excuse, but as rationing extends there will be less to collect, and if there is less to collect you must be more efficient in your collection. From civil and military sources together we are collecting approximately 203,000 tons per annum, without allowing for the private collections. This 203,000 tons is to be compared with the figure of 350,000 tons before the war. As abattoirs are under the control of the Ministry of Food, the question of the disposal of offals for feeding stuffs is one that I cannot answer. In a few cases it is known that local authorities mix offals with kitchen waste to produce animal feeding stuffs.
The number of local authorities making kitchen waste collections is increasing month by month, but some have been confronted with financial loss as a result of disposal difficulties. Those difficulties arise especially in the scattered areas of some local authorities. The main difficulties experienced by local authorities are shortage of labour and transport to make the necessary collection, and the reduction of yield as a result of rationing, and, as has been said, a falling off was very often due to bombing, for during periods of heavy bombing it is very difficult to collect waste. Some reference has been made to the "complacent manner" of the Controllers and the like. I should like to say, on behalf of my Ministry, that the Controllers and the people who work in the Salvage Department have really put in a great deal of work along the lines on which they are allowed to go. The noble Lord opposite said there were some spasmodic broadcasts. It might be better if there were fewer B.B.C. broadcasts on some of the questions put before us today. Occasional broadcasts are good and no more on some of these questions. I should like to pay tribute to the work which these Controllers are doing.

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I should like also to say that the Ministry of Agriculture have issued to local authorities and county war agricultural executive committees circulars and instructions urging them to make arrangements for the collection and disposal of kitchen waste. The agricultural executive committees have been asked to co-operate with the local authorities in their areas in finding outlets among the farming community for swill and, in particular, to ensure as far as they can that local authorities are not left with swill on their hands. In a number of cases the agricultural executive committees have appointed swill officers for this purpose. A vigorous propaganda campaign has been conducted through the Press and the B.B.C. to call the attention of pig and poultry keepers to the value of swill as a substitute feeding stuff, and advising them on the best methods of using it. A leaflet on this subject has been widely distributed among farmers in which the need for adequate boiling or other means of sterilisation of swill has been emphasized.
Feeding trials with pigs and poultry have been conducted at the School of Agriculture, Cambridge, in order to determine the feeding value of swill collected from various sources, and what quantities of ordinary feeding stuffs would be needed to supplement this waste material. The processing of swill is undertaken, firstly, to ensure sterilisation with a view to obviating the risk of spreading disease; and, secondly, to improve the keeping qualities and enable swill to be distributed over a wider area. For sterilisation purposes, simple boiling is sufficient, but both objects can be secured by concentration and drying and grinding to a meal. Having regard to these objects and to the costs involved, the Departments reached the conclusion that the concentration process provides the best method of utilising kitchen waste from larger centres of population. Local authorities have been urged to instal such plants and to intensify their collections. The necessary steel for a number of plants, which has to be got on a priority basis, has been reserved, and already eight local authorities have agreed to put up twenty-three units of plant. In some cases they are already in operation or in process of erection. In view of the uncertainty of the continued use of such plant when the war is over, the Government have given certain guarantees to local authorities which are designed
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largely to relieve them of the financial liabilities involved.
The swill in the raw state may readily be the agency for spreading foot-and-mouth disease, swine fever, and other animal infections, and a number of recent outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease have been attributed to swill. All users of swill are by law required to boil the swill before feeding to stock, and constant publicity is being given to this requirement. Other measures have been taken to minimise the risk of spread of disease from raw swill in process of transit from the collecting centre to the farm. The best method of minimising the risk of disease would be to sterilise all swill at the source of supply rather than at the farm. This is one of the reasons why the Government have urged local authorities to instal concentrators and other processing plant where sterilisation before distribution can take place. That is the view of the Ministry of Agriculture on this question, and I do assure the noble Lord who raised the matter that his remarks have been very helpful as a contribution to the cause which we must all have at heart at the present time. It was not very long ago in this House that the question of homegrown timber and the use of it for the saving of shipping was discussed. If that were necessary, it is very much more necessary in a case where the livestock of this country has to be preserved. Speaking for my own Ministry, the Ministry of Supply are fully alive to the fact that it is of importance in these times to press on with this campaign, and I can assure the noble Lord that we appreciate fully the importance of the Motion he has brought forward.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I should like to say one or two words on this subject. First of all your Lordships are indebted to Lord Davies for the speech he has delivered this afternoon, giving statistics of a very valuable character which show the enormous waste that is going on at the present time, and which the statement of the noble Lord, who, no doubt, has done his best to say what the Government are doing, has not really met. As I understood the noble Lord, the Parliamentary Secretary for the Ministry of Supply, we are now securing something like 200,000 tons of salvaged material and waste mostly from homes of the people of this country. That is all to

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the good. The materials are to be sterilised, and local authorities are to be urged, as the noble Lord said, in order to do better. But the figures that Lord Davies gave us showed that there are 500,000 tons of these materials capable of being saved at the present time, and only 200,000 tons are now secured. That is a very inadequate amount after eighteen months of war.
LORD PORTAL: I did not take the figure as 500,000, but as 350,000.
LORD DAVIES: The figure of 520,000 tons is arrived at on the basis of 35 cwts. per 1,000 of the population in each urban area. If the same amount is collected in the other urban areas as in Tottenham, then we should collect 525,000 tons.
LORD GAINFORD: I think I am in the recollection of the House that I have not exaggerated Lord Davies's statement. He gave us very careful figures, and explained how they were reached in order to justify the case he put to the Government. I have had some experience of local government, and I know what the financial difficulties are in connection with collecting swill of this kind from the various households in counties as well as in boroughs in this country. A great deal more can be done, and what we on these Benches feel is that the Government, whilst they are urging local authorities, have not used the powers that they possess to induce local authorities to do their job. I know the difficulties of transportation. I know we cannot always get everything done very quickly by local authorities. But I do not think the financial point made by the noble Lord, speaking for the Department, is a very good one, because Lord Davies has already proved that, by realising this material, local authorities can make 25 per cent. on the sale of this material compared with the cost.
If these figures can be justified, surely the Government ought to do a great deal more than they are doing. We feel that not only should local authorities be urged, but they should be compelled if necessary, to save these enormous sums of money in order that we may get the increased benefit for production in the matter of poultry and pigs, supplying items of food which are essential to the community. There has been nothing less than discouragement to poultry-keepers and those who
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produce pigs, as a result of the Government's methods. What we feel is that bacon ought to be increased in production, and poultry farmers ought to be encouraged instead of being restricted, because eggs as well as poultry are essential to the welfare of the community at large. I trust the Government will realise what a strong feeling there is outside that all those who have this material to dispose of should be induced to arrange with local authorities for its collection, and that the local authorities should then turn it into material for the benefit of cattle, poultry and pigs.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I think that several voices ought to be raised in this House to express dissatisfaction with the statement that has been made by the noble Lord who replied for the Government. We have always regarded him as a man who gets things done, and is not willing merely to accept the official statements of a Department in justification of inadequate action; but today it did seem to me that the statement he made was not such as the House ought to accept as an adequate reply to the indictment of my noble friend Lord Davies. Lord Davies gave reasons for thinking that the total material involved was in the neighbourhood of half a million tons, and it was said that if Tottenham was typical of the rest of the country—and there is no reason why it should not be regarded as typical—that was the figure to be arrived at. The noble Lord who replied, on the other hand, said the Department accepted a figure of 350,000 tons, but he gave no reason why they had adopted that figure; he gave no basis for thinking that the figure of my noble friend Lord Davies was not the correct figure.
The whole of his speech was framed on the assumption that 350,000 tons was the correct figure. But why should he assume that figure? He did not tell us. Since the amount which is now being obtained by the local authorities is in the neighbourhood of 200,000 tons, according to his statement, if the total collectable amount is 350,000 tons then the 200,000 tons that are being collected are a little more than half that. If, on the contrary, 500,000 tons is the collectable amount, then the 200,000 tons that are being collected are very much less than half. In the present state of affairs in this country we cannot afford to waste

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more than half of this available source of supply. It is a question not merely of potential foodstuffs to the value of millions of pounds, for, if the figures are translated into terms of pigs, it runs, certainty, into hundreds of thousands of pigs.
I think the feeling in this House after the debate to-day may—if I represent the views of others of your Lordships, and I think I do—be expressed as one of desire that the noble Lord, Lord Portal, should consider this matter yet again, and approach it afresh with a feeling that everything is not being done that ought to be done. I submit that he should approach it rather with the view that the present position is very unsatisfactory and that we need a further spurt and greater vigour so that we may be able to achieve better results than those which have so far been obtained.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I thank my noble friend opposite, Lord Portal, for his reply, but I think that perhaps he will now agree that it was an inadequate reply, not because he did not desire to give us a satisfactory reply but because he found it exceedingly difficult to do so. I have little or nothing to add to what has been said by my noble friends below me. I hope the Ministry will now realise that the total amount which is being salvaged, and I assume is also being processed and turned into feeding stuffs, is really only about half of what could be salvaged if all local authorities took this matter seriously and proceeded on the lines of the Tottenham local authority, and also, as I was delighted to hear, the Edinburgh local authority. I am sure that if all the authorities in this country proceeded on the same lines as the most progressive authorities are doing there would be no need for compulsion from the Ministry of Supply; but, as there are so many local authorities that do nothing at all, as there are so many who are really playing at it, surely it is the business of the Ministry to see that some new system is put into operation so that this waste shall not continue. I am very grateful to my noble friend for his reply, and for his promise to bring the matter to the notice of the authorities with a view to seeing what can be done to speed up the whole of the machinery, and, if possible, create some new organisation which will be able to double the
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present supply within the next three months. I beg to withdraw the Motion.
LORD PORTAL: My Lords, may I, by leave of the House, say a few further words? I would like to speak upon the difference which has been expressed on the question of the figures of Lord Davies and myself. The figure that I gave was based upon the refuse bins, and I understood that my figure was for a period of two or three years before the war—that is, the figure of 350,000 tons which I mentioned. I will certainly go into that figure again, because there is a great difference between the figure given by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the figure of which I was speaking. I do, however, wish to impress on the House that His Majesty's Government realise the great importance of this question. I said at the beginning of my speech, and I say now, that if enough is not being done under the present system by means of a voluntary collection, and the urge behind it is not sufficient, then we must go into the question how we can get the maximum collection. There are only two ways of dealing with the matter, one of which is by a voluntary collection. If that is not satisfactory then other methods must be used. As I have told the noble Lord, I agree that it must be a very bad thing at this time if we are only able to collect 50 per cent. or 60 per cent. of the refuse of the country. As to the other point in this matter of the collection of swill or animal foodstuff, it is better to have people dealing with it who understand the particular subject rather than people who take it as part of a large whole. I think that sometimes you want experts to deal with a matter of this kind. I assure your Lordships that this debate has been very helpful, and I will take up with His Majesty's Government the questions that have been debated.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

DETERMINATION OF NEEDS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I move the Second Reading of this Bill. I do not think your Lordships will desire a lengthy or detailed account of the Bill, but I will state, in

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as few words as I can and as clearly as I can, what are its chief provisions. The Bill really deals with two matters, and I will take the second one, the one that is dealt with in Clause 3 of the Bill, first. When I was Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a Budget Speech which I made in April last year, I referred to the tendency reported to me of some who might otherwise have taken up one of the forms of War Loan intended for the small investor to feel a reluctance to do so because they thought that if they provided themselves with Savings Certificates or with Defence Bonds this might be counted against them in future years, supposing that they ever had to apply for a supplement to their old age pensions under the recent Act or had to apply for unemployment assistance because their unemployment benefit was exhausted. As your Lordships know, in determining whether or not that assistance should be given, the law requires an investigation of the capital assets of the applicant.
I therefore made a statement to the House of Commons in which I said that we would take steps to put that matter quite right, and, if I may quote my own words, I said that we were going
"to see the existing rules governing the application of the means test modified so as to remove this objection altogether."
I went on to say:
"It will be necessary in the legislation to make provision to secure that the investment really is of new money and is not a transfer of money from previous funds since the object of the arrangement is to help to gather in the largest possible amount of additional savings for the war."
A Bill was introduced by my successor, Sir Kingsley Wood, in the month of August, but objection was taken to it because it was said that my previous declaration had been misunderstood in some quarters. I may say that I do not think there was any ground for misunderstanding, but you have to deal with things as they are and it was said that some people had thought that they would get an advantage which I had not promised—namely, that their war investments would not count against them if they had realised securities which they held before the war and then just switched the investment into a war investment. Of course that really would defeat the whole object of
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the plan, because the plan was to encourage people to put fresh savings into war investments, and not to encourage them to sell out previous savings in order to buy War Loans.
None the less, the Government felt that as some individuals had been under this misapprehension—and I am not suggesting that it was not a genuine misapprehension—something more must be done. If you look at the Second Schedule of the Bill you will see that the kernel of the matter is really in the definition of "war savings." War savings are there defined and the matter is, in an administrative sense, more complicated than might be supposed because, as I have already indicated, the individual who wants to take advantage of this provision may not want to take advantage of it for twenty or thirty or even forty years. He must therefore receive after the war a certificate which will, once and for all, settle what is the amount of war savings which he was able to effect. That results, of course, in subtracting from his total savings those savings that were made before the war and then what is left will be his war savings. If noble Lords will look at page 6 of the Bill, they will see in the second paragraph of the Second Schedule that there is a provision inserted which will subtract war investments made out of the proceeds of the realisation after the fourteenth day of August, 1940, of any previous investment of a person. The date August 14 is the date on which, as I have explained, the original Bill was expounded and it was made plain to everybody that the concession had nothing to do with switching of investments from old to new.
We have now, I think beyond all question, got this particular matter perfectly right and it is accepted on all hands. There is no reason at all why anybody should hesitate to invest in Savings Certificates or Defence Bonds up to the limit named because of a fear that this will be used against him should he fall on evil days and some time in the future want to ask for a supplement to his old age pension or unemployment assistance. I am glad to think that largely with the help of the promise which I made on behalf of the Government and its fulfilment now, the National Savings Movement, so vigorously conducted by my noble friends Lord Kindersley and Lord Mottistone, is appealing more and more to the small investor

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who is receiving perhaps overtime or better wages, and indeed to people much poorer who are making most strenuous efforts to increase war savings.
The other matter is dealt with in Clauses 1 and 2. Broadly speaking, up to the present it has been required in the determination of need or in assessing the needs of the applicant for unemployment assistance, or for a supplementary pension, that regard should be had to the resources of all the members of the household of which the applicant is a member, in order that various calculations and adjustments might be made. That has been a matter of considerable controversy and it is in any case an extremely complicated matter. Now it has been decided, and it is provided by the first clause of the Bill, that that requirement shall be abolished. In its place there is substituted a scheme which is embodied in the first instance in rules which will be found in the First Schedule.
The details of the scheme are not given in the Bill for reasons which your Lordships will appreciate. The Assistance Board is a body which is an independent body and it will make exact regulations which will lay down how much assistance will be given in different kinds of cases. When those regulations have been made they will go to the Ministers responsible to decide whether they will accept them or not. If the Ministers accept them, these regulations will be placed on the Table of both Houses of Parliament and will have to be approved by affirmative Resolution. Consequently you could not get in this Bill all the details, but both to save time and also in order that the public should be fully informed and Parliament be able to judge, the general principles which are to be followed are stated in the First Schedule in five different paragraphs. Those interested will have no difficulty in following what they mean. They are an immense improvement because they are very much more liberal.
There has been no change whatever in the text of the Bill since it was introduced in another place. The Bill was passed in the Commons with no dissent, and it has been, I believe, very warmly welcomed in all quarters. I would, however, remind your Lordships that before the Bill left another place the Chancellor of the Exchequer did indicate one or two further advantages which on reflection he
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found the Assistance Board would be prepared to give. There is available in the Printed Paper Office a White Paper entitled "Determination of Needs Bill— Memorandum by the Assistance Board." This is a document for information. It is to show everybody how the Assistance Board are proposing to apply these general rules in the First Schedule. Two matters which are mentioned in the White Paper have since been announced in the House of Commons. The first has reference to Rule 2 of the First Schedule. Under that rule it had been intended that with regard to adults living in the household and receiving normal wages, it should be taken that they were contributing 7s. a week to the householder who applies for relief. The question arose as to what would be treated as normal wages and the original answer given was 50s. a week. Representations were made, and it is now agreed that this provision will not apply until you have the case of someone in the household earning 55s. If that person is earning 55s. he will be assumed to be in a position to pay 7s. towards the maintenance of the household. The other change is in Rule 3. There the question was what should be treated as the income of a father and mother or a son and daughter and at what point should that income exceed "the prescribed amount"—a very familiar phrase in many Acts of Parliament. The Assistance Board put the amount at £5 per week, but representations were made, and it has now been decided that that amount should be raised from £5 to £6 a week. I mention these matters—detailed as they are—because they are not found in the White Paper. With these additions the White Paper, to anyone who is interested to study it, will be found a very clear publication. I can hardly imagine that the Bill will not be accepted in your Lordships' House because there was complete agreement in another place, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I would add only a sentence or two in appreciation of the exposition which the noble and learned Lord Chancellor has given. I am glad, particularly, that he described in such definite terms the arrangement relating to the exemption of war savings. This

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has been a subject of much contention for a very long time, and the settlement arrived at, I am perfectly certain, has provided an enormous incentive to increasing the assistance given to the savings groups up and down the country. With regard to the arrangement that has been come to so that the test, whereby the means of all those in the household were previously taken into account, has been limited, as is set out in the First Schedule and as has been described so clearly by the Lord Chancellor, that represents a compromise which has been accepted and is undoubtedly an enormous improvement on what has gone before.
I am rather sorry that we have not my noble friend Lord Rushcliffe here with us to-day for he knows from first-hand knowledge, and, I should say, bitter experience, all the controversies and difficulties which arose out of the old household means test. Perhaps it is because of those experiences that he is not here. If he were here we might have drawn him into making some confessions. But however that may be, I am sure that our thanks are due to the noble and learned Viscount and to those who have assisted in the promotion of this settlement of a matter which has been a subject of long-standing and very bitter controversy. I am glad that the noble Viscount mentioned two matters, the £5 a week and the 5s., which were subject to agreement in the other place quite at a late stage and were not embodied in the White Paper. I have nothing to add, on behalf of my noble friends, except to say that we welcome the Bill and to express the hope that it will lead to the disappearance of many long and bitter controversies.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I beg leave to make a few observations on this Bill and also to join in welcoming it. The operation of the household means test is a matter which has been the subject of ten years of controversy, during most of which period I, myself, was deeply immersed in it. The Government of 1931 passed legislation, at a moment of extreme economic depression and great financial urgency, which was the beginning of this trouble. It was, it must be admitted, hurried legislation and there were not then foreseen the kind of grievance to which this particular provision would give rise.
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When it was put in operation it soon became plain that the grievance was deep and that the provision was gravely resented by the working classes. I was at that time a member of another place for the Darwen Division of Lancashire where the depression was exceedingly grave, where there were, for years at a time, from 20 to 25 per cent. of the working population unemployed and where this particular provision pressed very hardly.
As your Lordships are aware, any unemployed workman who is insured has rights under his insurance, when he becomes unemployed, irrespective of his means. It is what he has already raid for and what he is entitled to. When, however, his insurance rights have been exhausted by lapse of time he has to come to the State for further assistance, and it was not unreasonable to say that that assistance need not be given from the taxpayer's pocket if the man is already sufficiently provided for from other sources. Whether he was so provided for was the fact that had to be ascertained, and under the law as it has stood recently the whole of the particular household had to have its income aggregated and then, on taking it as a whole, it was considered whether the unemployed workman was entitled to any assistance. More recently supplementary old age pensions were given beyond the normal old age pensions, and it had to be considered in respect of granting these supplementary pensions whether there was a need and the same calculation of the household means was effected. Well, it was thought that this was based on the principle of family solidarity, the principle that relations ought to help one another, that just as parents help their children so when parents need it their children should help them. But it was found that so far from supporting the principle of family solidarity it had the opposite effect. It created family disunion and grievances. Indeed in some cases it actually broke up homes. If you translate this matter from statistics or the terms of an Act of Parliament into actual terms of human life, it is easy to see how in a poor workman's home this provision worked to its disadvantage.
Suppose, for example, an elderly workman out of work has a married daughter and a son-in-law, with whom he lives. He has to be maintained, and when his

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insurance payments have run out his son-in-law's wages are regarded as part of the income of the house and the workman, in effect, may be refused any allowance, or his allowance may be reduced, because his son-in-law is in work and is bringing wages into the home. That creates a great difficulty in the family and the poor father is left, perhaps, without anything for his small daily expenditure, his newspaper, his smokes and so on, or he has to depend on his son-in-law or other relations for their provision. That has happened in tens of thousands of workmen's homes and naturally it has caused humiliation. Every day this fact makes itself felt and is a source of friction and difficulty. Not only that, but it has been the cause of breaking up the family, because, if the son is in work bringing in wages, the father may be refused unemployment allowance or may be given a very small one; whereas, if the son leaves the house and becomes a lodger in another street, or in another town, immediately the State provides for the father, so that, taking the family as a whole, the income of the family is increased.
Furthermore, the Act had the effect of causing inquiries to be made into the private affairs of people who were making no claim at all. The members of the household who were in work had to return what money they were receiving, and inquiries were made from their employers, in order that some other member of the family should receive a larger sum from the State. Nor was that all, because if one of the members of the family who was in work was working extra time, or was promoted on account of his efficiency and obtained a higher rate of wages, immediately that was taken into account, and the allowance to his relative might be reduced. For all these reasons, as the noble Lord, Lord Rushcliffe, had he been here, would have been able to testify, this was a cause, as I have said, of the most bitter resentment in hundreds of thousands of families throughout the country, and I heard of it constantly in the constituency which I represented.
Some of the worst of those evils were in course of time partially removed, but not the main one, which was the principle of the aggregation of incomes. The Election of 1935, which was the election
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of the present House of Commons, seems so remote, owing to the events which have intervened, that we have almost forgotten it; but at that Election this was one of the main issues, and on it the three Parties took different lines. The Conservative Party had little to say on the subject. The Labour Party advocated the abolition of all means tests. They said that there should be no inquiries at all, but that the payment should be given indiscriminately. The Liberal Party took neither of those courses, but urged the abolition of the household means test. That was the policy which we presented to the country, and it is the policy which we are now glad to see, after far too long an interval, is being adopted by the State, and which was endorsed by the House of Commons without dissent.
Some say that in effect this Bill does not abolish the household means test, and there was at one stage a controversy in the House of Commons on that account. That, however, is erroneous. Sons and daughters in work still have to contribute, but not as relatives; they contribute as lodgers in exactly the same way as if they were strangers living in the house and contributing out of their wages towards the necessary cost of lodging. The sum suggested is 7s. per adult man, which is the minimum sum suggested by the British Medical Association inquiry as necessary, taking account of the cost of living. If a person's wages are less than 20s. he may be regarded as contributing nothing; and, as the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has said, if his wages are less than 55s., then that 7s. may be reduced on a sliding scale. That appears to me to be a very fair arrangement; and, while regretting that this measure was not introduced and carried years ago, we welcome it now, and I have no doubt that your Lordships will give it very ready approval.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, by leave of the House I should perhaps add one sentence, for I omitted to state, what is plain on the face of the Bill but which perhaps ought to be stated, that the exemption of war investments from being taken into account later on, if there were an assessment for purposes of supplement to a pension or unemployment assistance, cannot exceed the sum of £375. That sum was chosen because it is the purchase price of the maximum

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number of Savings Certificates which anyone can buy—namely 500, which can be purchased for £375.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PUBLIC AND OTHER SCHOOLS (WAR CONDITIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).

LAND DRAINAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Alness, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.— (Lord Templemore.)
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I rise only as having presided over the Royal Commission on the Land Drainage of England and Wales, the Report of which was given effect to in the Land Drainage Bill of 1930, applicable to England and Wales, to say how very fortunate Scotland is in having a Bill, which will shortly become an Act of Parliament, framed on these lines. Indeed, to be quite frank, I think that we in England and Wales have some reason to be jealous of this Bill being passed so rapidly through all its stages during this war period, thus enabling, as I hope it will enable, a very large amount of valuable land, now more or less waterlogged, to be rendered suitable for a largely increased output of food.
Whilst welcoming the Bill most warmly, I should like to point out that so far as our English legislation is concerned, we do not enjoy the benefit which this Bill confers, I think, upon the community at large through the medium of a scheme which can be immediately carried out under the aegis of the Secretary of State for Scotland, whether there are reactionary, recalcitrant occupiers and owners or not; and under which, instead of demand-
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ing, as is necessary in England and Wales, at least a moiety of the cost of the drainage improvement from those concerned, the amount may be obtained from the owner, or even, if necessary, through the owner from the occupier of the land, by an annual levy. One trouble that we have in England is that so many farmers purchased land after the last war from their landlords, much of which was ill-drained—some of it was old alluvial land, potentially most fertile—and then found themselves, having expended all their money on the purchase of their farms, quite unable to find even a moiety for the necessary improvement, the Government finding the other moiety. The result is that in many districts the whole of the improved drainage of potentially fertile but now waterlogged land has been held up because of the absence of such drastic powers, capable of being rapidly carried out, as are conferred by this Bill. As an Englishman who is half a Scotsman, perhaps I may be allowed to intrude in this matter—a thing which I know Scotsmen are very much inclined to resent—to this extent, that, having been Chairman of the Royal Commission, I welcome this Bill with the full confidence that it will be of very material benefit to land generally in Scotland, and to the output of food from that country in particular.
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

CHARTERED AND OTHER BODIES (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with the leave of the House I wish to present a Bill to enable powers conferred by Section two of the Chartered and Other Bodies (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1939, to be exercised with respect to certain bodies incorporated by Royal Charter; and I beg to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.— (The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.
House adjourned.