Sitting of 10 June 1941

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

DEATH OF A MEMBER.
Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER made the following communication to the House:
I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Adam Hills, Esquire, Member for the County of York, West Riding (Pontefract Division), and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the honourable Member.

NEW WRIT.
For the county of Dorset (Western Division), in the room of Major Sir William Philip Colfox, Baronet, M.C. (Manor of Northstead). — [Mr. James Stuart.]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL.
Read the Third time, and passed.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL [MONEY] BILL.
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

PRIVATE BILLS [Lords].

  STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH.
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table, Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills that in the case of the following Bill originating in the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely—
  Portsmouth Water Bill [Lords].
  Bill to be read a Second time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  COAL INDUSTRY.

    DOMESTIC SUPPLIES.
    Captain Stricklandasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware of the great deficiency of household coal available for domestic use in the city of Coventry; that household coal is being compulsorily used for industrial purposes; and what steps he is taking to meet the danger of serious shortage in the coming winter?
    The Secretary for Mines (Mr. David Grenfell): The general supply position in Coventry, as in other parts of the West Midlands, is admittedly unsatisfactory, and the increasing demands of high priority industry have affected domestic

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    supplies. The obvious remedy is a substantial increase of production, and I am hopeful that the agreement now reached in regard to the attendance bonus will bring about the necessary co-operation between all parties in the industry so that the other measures referred to in the Debate on 28th May may have their full effect.
    Mr. Lawson: Have the Government any settled policy for bringing back to the pits men who have left in the last 12 months? Is my hon. Friend aware that men who are expert miners are labouring in other parts of the country outside the coal industry and are actually being stopped when they desire to go back to the industry; and that at present the 36's are being called up from the mines?
    Mr. Grenfell: I think that the Minister of Labour is taking definite steps to prevent a further leakage, and is also preparing a plan to get men to come back to the mines.
    Mr. Lawson: As men of 36 years of age are now being called up into the Services, do I take it that they are to remain in the mines or that they are to answer the call?
    Mr. Grenfell: They are still reserved for the mining industry and are not liable to be enlisted.
    Mr. Shinwell: What does my hon. Friend mean by preparing a plan? Is this the time for preparing a plan? Ought we not to be executing plans?
    Mr. Grenfell: I am not responsible for the execution in this case.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am aware that my hon. Friend is not responsible, but why does he not "spill the beans" and say who is?
    Mr. Grenfell: I have endeavoured to carry out my duties in a perfectly straightforward way, and if there are difficulties, I am willing to co-operate with anybody to put them right.
    Commander Fletcher: In connection with the admitted shortage of coal in Warwickshire, has my hon. Friend had under consideration the fact that the Tam-worth Colliery may shortly be closed down, with a loss of 200,000 tons per annum, and will he take steps to prevent it?
    Mr. Grenfell: There is a Question on the Paper about that.
    Captain Stricklandasked the Secretary for Mines (1) what was the estimated total tonnage of coal lost in the Warwickshire district in the week ended 17th May, 1941; and how many tons of this loss is estimated to have been lost owing to absenteeism;
    (2) what is the tonnage reduction of household coal produced in the Warwickshire district in the past 12 months; how many tons have been exported from that coalfield to the Southern area during that period; and how many tons imported from other areas to meet the deficiency in the district?
    Mr. Grenfell: Separate figures for household coal in the Warwickshire area are not available. However, the number employed and the output have declined as compared with the previous years. Warwickshire coal has been railed to markets in the South of England and at the same time coal from other coalfields has been sent into Warwickshire. The hon. Member will be aware that this has been sometimes necessitated by consideration of quality for different purposes. Absenteeism has been responsible for some loss of output, but the avoidable loss in tonnage has not been ascertained. As I have referred to the steps for securing, increased production in reply to another Question by the hon. Member, I hope he will be content to let the Pit and District Committees deal jointly with the question of absenteeism and the means of securing more regular work at the collieries.
    Captain Strickland: Are we to understand that the Minister does not call for any returns from the districts showing the production and distribution from week to week?
    Mr. Grenfell: Yes, Sir. We have figures in detail.
    Captain Strickland: Would I be incorrect in saying that there has been a loss in the particular week mentioned of 23,800 tons, of which 10,840, nearly one-half, is due to absenteeism; and further —
    Mr. Speaker rose—
    Captain Strickland: May I ask for your guidance, Sir? Two Questions are involved, and I want to put all my points in one supplementary.
    Mr. Speaker: We do not want to add to the Questions.
    Captain Strickland: May I put the Questions I have already asked?
    Mr. Grenfell: I am unable, by reasons of public interest, to give these figures or to examine them. I have given a general statement to my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: Does the Minister realise that Warwickshire coal is a primary source of supply for Oxfordshire, Berkshire and Buckinghamshire, that the position in those counties last winter was catastrophic, and that it is getting worse now?
    Mr. Grenfell: Perhaps I should have said in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Coventry (Captain Strickland) that I do not want to appear to be discourteous or unwilling to give information, but we do know the figures of production for every pit in the country every week and of the number of men employed. That information is available. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Wycombe (Sir A. Knox), we are short of men and short of production, and that is a thing which we wish to remedy as soon as possible.
    Captain Strickland: Is there not a huge reduction of production in the Warwickshire pits of something like 1,000,000 tons per annum, and is not the Ministry at the same time asking the pits to send away an extra 30,000 tons from Warwickshire, although we are faced with the shortage of workers and the people of Coventry cannot get household coal?
    Mr. Grenfell: It is clear to everybody who knows the industry that you cannot establish a lien on the available production of any one district. Coal has to be sent away according to its suitability for certain production purposes. Gas coal, for example, cannot be substituted by other coal. Every quality of coal has its own purpose, and coal must be taken away to districts for use as required.
    Mr. Buchanan: Is the Minister aware that this shortage is prevalent throughout the country, and will he, to safeguard his own interests, seek an early opportunity of making a statement on the situation, showing how far he intends to make plans to obviate what is obviously a serious position?
    Mr. Grenfell: I have always been frank with the House, and I made a statement recently. It is primarily a question of an increase in man-power.
    Sir A. Knox: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that preparing plans is not sufficient?
    Mr. Grenfell: The hon. and gallant Member must know that during last winter there was a limit of production, but the limit was not in the pits but in the transport system. Now that limit has been raised it is necessary to bring more men back to the pits to produce up to the limits of our increased transport capacity.
    Commander Fletcher: Is it not the case that the week chosen, that in Question No. 2, is an unfortunate one, from which no accurate general conclusions can be drawn? Should not a distinction be drawn between voluntary and involuntary absenteeism, and is it not a fact that otherwise no accurate conclusions can be drawn?
    Mr. Grenfell: I have never subscribed to the allegation that all the loss of work at the pits is avoidable. A reasonable proportion of absenteeism is to be expected. We do not get exact figures, and they are not closely analysed, and I could not from my place in this House say to the exact decimal what percentage of absenteeism is avoidable. We hope that absenteeism will be reduced by the joint action of the employers and men on the pit and district committees which have now been set up.

    TAMWORTH COLLIERY.
    Sir John Mellorasked the Secretary for Mines whether he has considered a communication from the Tamworth Rural District Council, dated 28th May, 1941, calling his attention to the hardship to the older employés of the Tamworth colliery and the aggravated local shortage of coal, expected to result from the closing of the Tamworth pit; and whether he will make a statement?
    Mr. Grenfell: I have considered the letter of 28th May from the Tamworth Rural District Council, to which a reply was sent on 31st May. As I informed the hon. Member in reply to a Question on 22nd May, the men no longer required at

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    Tamworth Colliery will be absorbed elsewhere in the district. I am advised that no difficulty has been experienced in placing the men so far available, and that none is anticipated in the future.
    Sir J. Mellor: Is the Minister aware that local opinion holds to the view that only a small proportion of the older men will be absorbed by other collieries, and that in consequence there will be an immediate loss of production to the Warwickshire coalfield? Will the Minister give an assurance that local consumers of coal will obtain alternative supplies from other sources?
    Mr. Grenfell: I am assured that there will be no delay in placing these men in neighbouring collieries, and I am also assured that the result of transferring these men from the Tamworth colliery to better collieries will be to increase and not to reduce production.

    SWAZILAND (EDUCATION).
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Undersecretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in view of the urgent need for the expansion of educational work among Africans in Swaziland and the High Commissioners territories, it is proposed to use the facilities of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act without delay?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Shakespeare): Certain proposals submitted by the High Commissioner relating to education in Swaziland have been under examination recently in consultation with the Advisory Committee on Education in the Colonies. My Noble Friend will shortly be communicating with the High Commissioner on the subject, and it is proposed to ask him to prepare a scheme for assistance under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act. It is hoped that it will be possible to make a start on such a scheme without waiting for the conclusion of the war.
    Mr. Riley: Can the Minister say what percentage of the children of school age in these territories are receiving elementary education?
    Mr. Shakespeare: I should require to have notice of that Question.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    MINERS' WORKING CLOTHES.
    Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that certain business firms in a mining area have been informed by their wholesaler that certain working clothes necessary to miners cannot be supplied before October as the quota has been supplied; and will he take steps to enlarge the quota of these necessary clothes?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Lyttelton): I was not aware that any difficulty existed over the supply of miners' working clothes, and under the Limitation of Supplies Orders many licences have been issued by my Department for clothes, such as pit drawers, to be supplied outside the home trade quota. This procedure is being continued.
    Mr. Taylor: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the firm in question have been notified that they can have no further supply until October, as the quota has been exhausted; and is he aware that miners working in low seams, where it is wet working, wear out their stockings and drawers in no time, and that unless special steps are taken to meet this difficulty then the Questions which have just been addressed to my hon. Friend the Minister of Mines will be aggravated in another form?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir, I am aware of that, and, as I have stated, the firm can get a licence outside the quota to make this clothing.
    Mr. Lawson: Can the right hon. Gentleman take any steps himself directly to see that extra shoes, stockings and other necessary clothes are put into the mining areas? Is he aware that clothes are rotted by sweat in two or three days, and also by the wet, and that shoes will last no more than a few weeks in the mines?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am prepared to give these licences.

    LLOYDS INSURANCE (FRUSTRATED CONTRACTS).
    Sir Herbert Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the announcement that it is intended to introduce legislation to deal with frustrated contracts in accordance with the recommendations of the Lord Chancellor's Law Revision Committee, he

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    will now advise Lloyds Insurance Company of the desirability of withdrawing its circular of 19th July last, in which it was stated that they did not intend to make a return of premiums to insurers on the unexpired period of insurance policies which had been frustrated?
    Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir. I am not aware that Lloyds have issued any circular in the terms suggested by my hon. Friend.

    CLOTHES RATIONING.
    Sir H. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade the date and time of the signing of the Clothes Rationing Order; also the date and time at which the fact was communicated to the Press; whether his attention has been drawn to the extent of purchases in anticipation of the Order; and whether he has any statement to make?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The Order was signed in the afternoon of Thursday, 29th May, and came into operation on 1st June. Notice of the Order was sent to the Press on the morning of 31st May with an instruction in regard to the hour of publication, which was fixed for Sunday morning, 1st June. I had a confidential conference with the Editors of the principal newspapers in the afternoon of 30th May, as is the normal custom, and on this, as on other occasions, there is no evidence whatever of any breach of confidence. Every possible precaution was taken to avoid leakage of information and it has been generally acknowledged that the secret was well kept.
    Sir H. Williams: Can my right hon. Friend state what official of the Board of Trade was responsible for communicating the statement published in the "News-Chronicle" on Monday week last to the effect that there had been a disclosure and that the matter was already being dealt with?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I must have notice of that question. I did not notice that statement.
    Sir H. Williams: Surely the right hon. Gentleman's Department read what the Press say with regard to their own enterprises? May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention was drawn to the article in the "Sunday Express"—
    Mr. Speaker: We cannot have all these questions about statements appearing in newspapers.
    Sir J. Mellorasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will explain the position as regards the replacement of rationed clothing of persons who suffer losses by fire, theft and laundry?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Persons desiring to obtain extra coupons to replace essential clothing and footwear lost by fire, theft or laundry, should apply by post on a form (for the present C.R.S.C.I.) to the nearest Collector of Customs and Excise whose address and the form of Application may be obtained from the nearest Information Centre of the local authority. Applicants are required to furnish on the form particulars of the essential articles of clothing and footwear they still possess, which will be taken into account in considering claims to extra coupons.
    Sir J. Mellor: Will my right hon. Friend say whether they will get coupons sufficient for 100 per cent, replacement?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Not 100 per cent, replacement of what their previous stocks were, but coupons for essential clothing.
    Mr. Glenville Hall: Will my right hon. Friend say how long this procedure will take? It appears that it may take months to get these replacements.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Special steps are being taken, and applications will be dealt with by the local collectors within 48 hours. The total time taken will not be more than four days.
    Mr. Dolandasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will ex tend the period mentioned, namely, 14th June, for the supply of bespoke tailoring and bespoke boots and shoes, as, owing to shortage of labour and similar difficulties, it is impossible for traders to complete orders taken before 1st June within the period defined, and the bespoke traders arc thereby penalised compared with the ready-to-wear traders?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir. The period has now been extended to 21st June.

    WAR MATERIALS (IMPORTS, ENEMY COUNTRIES).
    Mr. A. Edwards: asked the Minister of Economic Warfare whether he is aware

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    that American firms are still sending war materials to Axis countries; that motor-fuel supplies are leaving Latin-American ports for Germany and Italy; that the Dutch East Indies have recently increased their allocation of petroleum to Japan, which is being refined and transported by British and American companies; and what steps he is taking to stop these supplies getting to Axis countries?
    The Minister of Economic Warfare (Mr. Dalton): A large number of important war materials cannot now be exported from the U.S.A. without an export licence. Such licences are subject to strict control, which should effectively prevent any supplies of these materials reaching the enemy from the United States. If my hon. Friend has any information regarding the supply of war material to the enemy by American firms, I should be much obliged if he would let me have it. So far as I am aware, no neutral ships are engaged in carrying motor oil from Latin-America to Germany and Italy. Enemy ships occasionally make the attempt, the latest being the German steamship "Lech" which was intercepted on 22nd May. In reply to the third part of the Question, I understand that the short-term contract between the N.E.I, and Japanese oil interests has been renewed for another six months, but that there is no increase in the quantity of oil contracted for. In reply to the last part of the Question, the Navy make every effort to intercept blockade runners from South America, and His Majesty's Government are in frequent consultation with the United States Government on these matters.
    Mr. Edwards: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think, now that this matter is being adversely criticised in the American Press, that he might impress upon the American Government that to the extent to which they supply goods to the enemy they are not acting up to the President's statement of policy but are becoming the arsenals of autocracy?
    Mr. Dalton: I should be very much obliged if my hon. Friend would give me any particulars that he has.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will my right hon. Friend draw the attention of the American and Dutch Governments to the experience that we had with the Italian Government
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    over oil supplies in the first year of the war?
    Mr. McGovern: Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether there is any truth in the statement that petroleum or oil from the Dutch East Indies is being shipped to Japan and then goes to Germany for use in her submarines?
    Mr. Dalton: It is quite clear that a quantity of oil is being shipped from the Netherlands East Indies to Japan. It is not being carried in British or American tankers, but in Japanese tankers. There is, of course, a possibility that it may pass on over the Trans-Siberian route into Germany, but I think it is more likely that it is retained in Japan.
    Mr. McGovern: Are the Dutch East Indies in the war or out of the war? Are they neutral?

    FRENCH NORTH AFRICA (UNITED STATES GOODS).
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Economic Warfare whether he has any information regarding an agreement with French North Africa to allow the passage of goods between the United States of America and that territory; whether the United States of America have informed His Majesty's Government of their intentions; and whether he will give an assurance that he will afford no facilities for the passage of goods to French North Africa?
    Mr. Dalton: During the past two months the United States Government have discussed with the French authorities a proposal whereby certain limited shipments of goods should be permitted for consumption in French North Africa. The United States Government have throughout kept us informed. The execution of these plans must depend on future developments, and for the moment discussions are suspended.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it desirable that we should provide facilities for the passage of goods to French North Africa, which is, in effect, enemy territory? Are we to understand that that is the policy of His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Dalton: No facilities are being provided.
    Mr. Shinwell: If this agreement is being negotiated, and since the United States Government have declared their intention of making shipments to French North Africa, are we to allow these goods to pass unimpeded?
    Mr. Dalton: If my hon. Friend will study the terms of the answer I gave, he will see that I stated that execution of these plans will depend on future developments and that, for the moment, these discussions are suspended.
    Mr. Shinwell: Ought we not to make it plain beyond any shadow of doubt that we have no intention of allowing goods to pass into French North Africa, which is, in effect, enemy territory? May I have an answer to that question?
    Mr. Dalton: My hon. Friend must be well aware that we constantly express our views to the United States of America and that we exchange views with them in return.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    CATERING ADVISERS.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for War who are his present advisers on catering; and from what firms they have been drawn?
    The Secretary of State for War (Captain Margesson): As the House is aware, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harrow (Sir I. Salmon) who is also chairman and managing-director of Messrs. J. Lyons and Company, Limited, acts as Honorary Catering Adviser to the Army in association with the Quartermaster-General's Department. In addition, there is a catering adviser in each command, and nearly 150 advisers are attached to various units and formations.
    Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend satisfied that his advisers in the War Office arc. making the best use of the kitchen staffs and materials made available by the closing down of hotels and boarding-houses?
    Captain Margesson: Yes, Sir. One is, of course, never satisfied, but from what I have seen of this matter I think the best use is being made of the experts and material which are available.
    Viscountess Astor: Is not my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that the best use will never be made of anything of this kind until competent women are put in charge instead of incompetent men?

    ALIENS (RECRUITMENT).
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will now consider the formation of a foreign legion, to embrace soldiers of those nations which are not organising their own armies to help the Allied Forces, but whose individual subjects wish to help?
    Captain Margesson: Nationals of neutral States are already eligible for enlistment into any corps of the British Army, subject to their suitability. Germans, Austrians and Italians who are considered suitable may be accepted for enlistment into the Pioneer Corps. In these circumstances, I do not think it necessary to form any separate foreign legion as part of the British Army.
    Miss Eleanor Rathbone: Is the light hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that many ex-enemy aliens have the fighting spirit and recognise this war as their war just as much as ours, and is it not a waste of these men to put them into the Pioneer Corps?
    Captain Margesson: They do very good work there.

    TRANSFERRED OFFICERS (RANK).
    Viscountess Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, by present procedure, officers, when transferred voluntarily or otherwise, are, as a result of such transfer, liable to be not only reduced in rank, but to lose also pay and allowances appertaining to the higher rank formerly held; and whether he will assure the House that, in the selection and consequent demotion, due regard and consideration is given to officers' previous services at home and overseas, and that the records dealing with such services are up to date?
    Captain Margesson: I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the relinquishment of acting or temporary rank on transfer to another appointment. Under the rules for promotion in war-time, all promotions to fill vacancies in the war establishment are acting or temporary,

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    but an officer holding temporary rank is given war substantive promotion to the next lower rank. With a few exceptions, the retention of acting or temporary rank depends on whether an officer continues to perform the duties of the post for which the rank has been granted. If an officer is transferred, the posting is naturally made in the substantive or war substantive rank held by him, and an officer would therefore relinquish his acting or temporary rank from the date on which he left his original post. This system has the advantage not only of giving every officer an equal chance to prove his merit but also of achieving a high degree of elasticity in the selection of officers for higher posts. As regards the second part of the Question, due regard is always paid to officers' previous service at home and overseas, and all possible steps are taken to keep the records of their service up to date.

    REQUISITIONED LAND AND BUILDINGS (CLAIMS).
    Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in order to obviate delay, expense, duplication and overtopping, he will arrange for claims due in respect of requisitioned premises, and all other claims against his Department, to be dealt with by the Claims Commission, and extend its authority accordingly, so that all claimants of the public will have one section of the War Department to approach in respect of all claims alleged?
    Captain Margesson: The assessment of compensation for land and buildings under the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, is a clearly defined task, and, when the Claims Commission was set up, it was decided that it would be more convenient if this work were left to the permanent organisation responsible for the administration of War Department lands, whose staff had been largely increased for this purpose. I think the balance of advantage lies in maintaining that decision. To do otherwise would, apart from anything else, result in temporary dislocation of machinery and delay in settlement of claims. Undoubtedly there are borderline cases, but I have reason to believe that delay, duplication and overlapping are infrequent.
    Sir L. Lyle: What is the objection to using the machinery which is already available?
    Captain Margesson: There is no objection to that at all, but the question was very carefully gone into to see how the public could be best served, and it was decided that these arrangements resulted in the greatest expedition.

    EYE INJURIES (PROTECTION).
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for War what progress has been made in regard to supplying the Army with protection against preventable blind ness?
    Captain Margesson: At the request of the War Office the question of affording additional protection against eye injuries in the Army has been very carefully examined by an expert committee of the Medical Research Council in the light of evidence provided both by this war and the last. Several tests of various kinds of protective devices have been carried out. As a result of their extensive investigations, the committee has now recommended that no special vizor in any material is required other than the present anti-gas eyeshield.

    LIBYA (OPERATIONS).
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for War whether the officers responsible for the errors of strategy in not evacuating Benghazi and the other Libyan towns immediately after our capture of them, first destroying the ports, aerodromes and water supplies, are still in their high commands?
    Captain Margesson: As I stated in answer to a Question by my hon. Friend on 13th May, I have nothing to add to the statement by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 7th May on the subject of operations in Libya.
    Mr. Purbrick: I have made a very careful examination of the statement made by the Prime Minister, and there was nothing in it which forms a reply to the Question I have put down. As this is a very important matter, can we not have an answer?
    Captain Margesson: I have looked at the Prime Minister's statement—indeed, I heard it in the House—and I think that

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    he dealt very faithfully with the difficulties and with some of the errors that happened in the campaign to which my hon. Friend referred.
    Mr. Purbrick: We have not yet heard, however, whether the officers who were responsible for these errors of tactics are still in their commands.

    CHURCH PARADE.
    Captain Thurtleasked the Secretary of State for War the result of the recent court-martial on Guardsman Ernest J. Whitehead, of the Grenadier Guards, for refusing to enter church when on compulsory church parade?
    Captain Margesson: The soldier in question was found guilty of disobeying a lawful command by his superior officer and was sentenced to seven days' detention.
    Captain Thurtle: Does not my right hon. and gallant Friend think it is very undesirable that soldiers should be dragooned into church in this way if they do not want to go? Does he not also think that the time spent on such a court-martial as this could be much better employed, and will he discourage courts-martial of this kind in future?
    Captain Margesson: This was a peculiar case. In this case the soldier stated on attestation that he had no religion, but when he filled up his attestation paper he was under the impression that he had to give some religion, so he entered himself as "Church of England." Actually, notices in large type are displayed in all recruiting offices to the following effect:
    "Every recruit is entitled to be classified for religion in the Army in accordance with his own declaration on the subject."
    This does not preclude an entry as atheist. The soldier has now been given an opportunity of amending his religious classification and will not be compelled to attend service in future.

    OFFICERS' CLOTHING COUPONS.
    Sir Ralph Glynasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is in a position to make any statement in regard to the purchase of uniforms by officers, arising out of the recent Board of Trade clothing order?
    Captain Margesson: As has already been stated in the Press, officers will
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    eventually receive the same number of clothing coupons as civilians, but until these have been issued they may obtain supplies of rationed goods by signing a statement on the back of the trader's bill that the articles mentioned represent their essential personal requirements.
    Captain Duncan: What is going to happen in the case of an officer newly commissioned, as I understand that it takes 108 coupons to dress such an officer?

    SOLDIER'S DEATH (NOTIFICATION).
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for War for what reason the widow of Corporal Thomas Edgar Flowitt, of the First Cameron Highlanders, was only informed on 26th May, 1941, that her husband was wounded on 32nd May, 1940, and died of wounds on 10th June last year?
    Captain Margesson: Corporal Flowitt's wife was informed by the War Office on 3rd June, 1940, that her husband had been wounded on 22nd May. She received a further notification on 30th July, 1940, that he had been posted missing. A postcard was subsequently received by her from her husband which showed that he had been taken prisoner. No further information about this soldier was received in this country until the receipt of a telegram last month from the International Red Cross Committee at Geneva to the effect that he had died as a prisoner of war on 10th June, 1940. The contents of this telegram were immediately passed on to the soldier's widow. I much regret this unfortunate delay in notifying Mrs. Flowitt of her husband's death as a prisoner of war, but my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate that it was due to circumstances outside my control and that all information in the possession of the War Office was communicated to her as soon as it was received.
    Sir A. Knox: Who is primarily responsible for the ascertainment of casualties? Is it the casualty department of the War Office or the Red Cross? Surely it is possible within less than one year to find out a matter of this sort?
    Captain Margesson: It is often difficult to get information in this country about prisoners of war, and we have to rely upon the International Red Cross to give the information.
    Sir A. Knox: Would it not be better if we had a British representative in Geneva to help things along?

    AUXILIARY TERRITORIAL SERVICE (ALIENS).
    Miss. Wardasked the Secretary of State for War the reason for the issue of the recent instruction's to the Auxiliary-Territorial Service giving permission to Rumanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians to enlist in any branch of the service and freeing them from the necessity of volunteering for the alien section of the service?
    Captain Margesson: My hon. Friend appears to be under a misapprehension. The alien platoons of the Auxiliary Territorial Service are confined to enemy aliens, that is, persons of German, Austrian or Italian nationality. Rumanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians are not enemy aliens and are therefore eligible for enrolment in all branches of the Auxiliary Territorial Service, subject to their general suitability. They are not employed on confidential work. The object of the instructions to which my hon. Friend refers was that applications for enrolment from persons of these nationalities should, in future, be submitted on the more detailed form used for enemy aliens. In other words, their applications are to be subjected to closer crutiny than was the case heretofore.
    Miss Ward: Is it possible under present Regulations for Rumanians, Hungarians, or Bulgarians to be used to drive officers of the British Army?
    Captain Margesson: Yes, Sir. My answer shows clearly that they are eligible for enrolment in all branches of the Auxiliary Territorial Service. They are not employed on confidential work.
    Miss Ward: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend thoroughly satisfied that that is a good policy, in view of the fact that these drivers can enter secret Defence areas when they are driving high officers?
    Captain Margesson: We must use a bit of common sense in these matters.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: In view of the fact that the Bulgarian Government pursued a course of action very deleterious to this country, ought not applications from
    20
    Bulgarians to be treated with the greatest reserve?
    Captain Margesson: Most certainly, Sir, and that is the reason for the tightening-up of the Regulations.

    BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for War the arrangements of the Red Cross for assuring that parcels of invalid comforts, sent every three weeks by relations, are received by prisoners of war in Germany, as one prisoner, to whom such parcels have been sent in the five months October to February, has received nothing, and the impression is that parcels are handed over to the camp hospital and so do not reach the individual?
    Captain Margesson: Gifts of invalid comforts from relatives of prisoners of war must be sent direct from chemists to the Invalid Comforts Section of the British Red Cross Society. These contributions are then labelled with the name of the prisoner for whom they are intended and included in the parcels of invalid comforts which are sent at regular intervals by the British Red Cross Society to camps and hospitals. When the consignment reaches the camp, the senior officer is responsible for the distribution of individual parcels to the prisoners concerned. If my hon. and gallant Friend will let me have particulars of any case in which parcels sent under the arrangements to which I have referred have not reached the individual to whom they were addressed, I shall be very glad to look into it.

  SCOTLAND.

    BOMBED-OUT FAMILIES, GLASGOW (RE-HOUSING).
    Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has any information with regard to the number of tenants of Corporation or other houses in Glasgow who have voluntarily evacuated to reception areas, thus occupying houses which might otherwise be available for homeless people; whether, in such circumstances, the local authority proposes to requisition the houses thus left vacant for re-housing bombed-out families; and whether he has made any representations to the local authority on this subject?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): The Corporation of Glasgow are in process of making a survey of unoccupied houses, both those owned by the Corporation and those privately owned. I have asked the Corporation to inform me of the result of the survey at its completion, which I hope will be at an early date. Some houses have already been requisitioned.
    Mr. Neil Maclean: Arising out of that reply, has my right hon. Friend taken a census of the houses in East Renfrewshire which are empty and which include a very large number of mansion houses?
    Mr. Johnston: Yes, the County Council of Renfrewshire are making a survey of large houses in East Renfrewshire which might accommodate homeless persons.

    BLACK-FACED WOOL (PRICE).
    Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction among hill sheep farmers in Scotland at the recently-fixed prices of black-faced wool; and whether he can hold out any hope that something will be done during the course of the season to safeguard Scottish hill sheep farmers against the ruin which faces them under present conditions?
    Mr. Johnston: I have not received any representations from Scottish hill sheep farmers about the price of black-faced wool since the increased prices for the 1941 clip were announced. As regards the second part of the Question I fully share the hon. and gallant Member's anxiety about the hill sheep farming position and I would repeat the assurances given on behalf of the Government when the 1941 prices were recently announced that if it should prove necessary in the light of the experiences of the current season the Government would be prepared to arrange special measures of assistance.
    Mr. Robertson: Is it not a fact that the mortality among hill sheep during the late spring has been very severe, as much as 50 to 60 per cent. in the higher parts of Scotland; is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's Department has recently made a survey of balance sheets revealing the bankruptcy of the hill sheep industry, and is it any good going on and leaving these men in their present penury?
    Mr. Johnston: Yes, Sir, in some districts the situation is most alarming, and I
    22
    have indicated appreciation of that fact in my answer.

    EVACUATION CAMPS.
    Mr. Kenneth, Lindsayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many vacant places now exist in the camp schools of Scotland?
    Mr. Johnston: The number of vacant places in the Scottish evacuation camps on 6th June, 1941, was 250. It is hoped, however, that approximately 100 of these places will be filled this week.
    Colonel Colville: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the camps built to assist the Glasgow area are in fact being fully utilised now that the result of enemy air attack makes it desirable to use them?
    Mr. Johnston: Yes, Sir, as a matter of fact every one of the camps attached to Glasgow is fully occupied.

    WOMEN'S LAND ARMY.
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements are in force to supervise the moral and physical welfare of girls in the Land Army when placed on isolated farms in Scotland?
    Mr. Johnston: Welfare supervision of members of the Women's Land Army in Scotland, whether on isolated farms or elsewhere, has been entrusted to Women's Land Army sub-committees. These committees allot districts to local women representatives who take an active interest in the well-being of the volunteers.
    Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this may be the system in theory, but it is not actually so in practice, and is he aware that young girls are dumped on these farms and then apparently forgotten?
    Mr. Johnston: That is not my information, but if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will give me any instances to the contrary, I shall be very glad indeed to look into the matter.

    CIVIL DEFENCE (DETAINEES).
    Miss Wardasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the granting of a writ of habeas corpus in respect of Captain Charles Henry Bentick Budd, he will set up an independent committee of inquiry into the

    23
    administration of the Defence Regulations governing the detention of British subjects?
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): In the case of Captain Budd and certain others who were interned at the same time, there was an accidental irregularity in the documents served upon them at the time of their arrest. This irregularity occurred after the decision had been taken by my predecessor that the internment of these persons was necessary. There was no failure to consider fully the merits of each case. The Home Office records show clearly that the then Home Secretary gave his personal and close attention to the question whether in each case detention was necessary for purposes of national security; and, in my view, the necessity for these detentions was unquestionable. In these cases, however, where the liberty of the subject is affected, it is essential not only that the Home Secretary shall apply his mind carefully to the question whether detention is necessary, but also that there shall be no defects in the subsequent procedure after an order of detention has been made. In the cases in question, there was such a defect. A bad clerical mistake was made, in that the documents served upon the individuals whom the Home Secretary had decided to intern did not correspond with the order made by him. The error occurred in June of last year, when the Departmental staff was working under the utmost pressure, but I do not seek for a moment to excuse it. I much regret it, and I have taken steps to ensure that in future such documents shall be most carefully checked, and, in addition, that the records relating to all persons now under detention shall be scrutinised.
    In these circumstances, while I recognise the wry proper desire of the House that the greatest care shall be taken in the administration of this Regulation, it does not appear to me that any Committee of Inquiry is necessary. I may add that, in view of the High Court decision in the case of Captain Budd, I ordered the immediate release of 12 other persons whose position was the same as that of Captain Budd. As, however, a release necessitated by technical defects of procedure does not relieve the Home Secretary of his responsibility for public safety, I
    24
    warned them that the question of fresh orders of detention would have to be considered. I have since reviewed de novo all the cases, and as, in my judgment, it is necessary, on grounds of national security, that Captain Budd and II of the other persons affected should be held in preventive custody, I have, in pursuance of my public duty, made fresh orders for their detention.
    Miss Ward: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his statement, might I ask whether, in view of the very restricted Press reports of the hearing before the High Court Judge, it would not be desirable to publish the findings in a White Paper, so that the House may see what actually took place.
    Mr. Morrison: I gather that there was a full report in the "Times" newspaper, which, I think, covered the judgment. While I will give consideration to my hon. Friend's suggestion, I think that she will find that report a very full one.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Has the Home Secretary consulted with the other Ministers concerned, to make sure that there is proper procedure for reinstating in ordinary civilian rights people who have been detained and then released, either by habeas corpus procedure or by other means?
    Mr. Morrison: I do not think it would be right for me to prejudice other Ministers in considering re-employment. The papers are available to them, and they know—or can know—all the circumstances of the case. It does not follow, because release has taken place, that the person is necessarily suitable for public employment.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    MAXIMUM PRICE ORDERS.
    Captain Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, whether he is aware that, so far as regards 14 of the 24 commodities scheduled in the standstill order, and for which no fresh prices have since been fixed, their maximum prices are the highest then obtaining, including whatever unchecked profiteering had then taken place; whether this condition is to

    25
    continue; and whether he will take immediate steps to fix those maxima at fair rates?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): Since I gave an answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's Question on 21st May, upon which he has based the statement in the first part of the present Question, additional maximum price orders have been made, and certain further commodities have been dealt with in other ways. The position, therefore, is not now as stated. Steps are being taken to deal as quickly as possible with every item named in the Schedule to the Current Prices Order of 8th January last.
    Captain Lyons: While I am glad that action has been taken, will my hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind that the remaining prices, which have not been touched, are those that the speculators themselves fixed, that they reached their highest point last Christmas, and that it was then that the Ministry fixed the standstill order?
    Major Lloyd George: That is not quite the case. In some cases, it is true, prices were rather high, but the standstill order, as it is called, was a purely temporary thing, to operate until the transfer to the maximum price orders. There are very few cases in which the commodity is not covered by a maximum price order.
    Captain Lyons: Are we to take it that those which; are not covered will be covered as s6on as possible; and is it not a fact that the standstill order was fixed on the price then obtaining?
    Major Lloyd George: That is not quite the case. Some of those prices are admittedly higher than they ought to be, but the standstill order was always regarded as a purely temporary measure. My hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate that there are now very few commodities not covered by a maximum price order.

    EGGS.
    Mr. R. C. Morrisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is now able to make a statement upon the new scheme for securing more equitable distribution of eggs?
    Major Lloyd George: My noble Friend has decided to take control of home-produced eggs and arrange for their distribution through normal trade channels at an early date. Consumers have already been asked to register with retailers. The scheme has been approved in principle by representatives both of producers and of the distributive trade, and detailed plans are now being completed. I will circulate in the Official Report full particulars.
    Sir J. Mellon: Will my hon. and gallant Friend consider allowing a higher controlled price in towns, to allow for transport and packing costs, in order to induce farmers to send eggs from the country to the town?
    Major Lloyd George: Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will look at the reply that I have given.
    Mr. McKinlay: Does this include eggs produced in Northern Ireland? That is the biggest racket of all.
    Mr. Benjamin Smith: The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that the producers have been asked to do certain things. Why are they not instructed?
    Major Lloyd George: My answer said that they have "approved," not that they have been asked.
    Mr. Haslam: Is my hon. and gallant Friend taking care of the interests of the retailer-producer?

    MILK (SCHOOL CHILDREN).
    Mr. Parkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that in some reception areas the schools are so crowded that children cannot begin school at the normal age and thus cannot get milk either under the Government scheme for young children or under the milk-in-schools scheme; and whether he will continue the milk facilities for young children until they enter school?
    Major Lloyd George: The cases to which my hon. Friend refers are being borne in mind in the review of milk distribution arrangements which my Noble Friend is now making.

    JAM RATION (CHILDREN).
    Mr. Parkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will provide a bigger jam ration for children than for adults?
    Major Lloyd George: I regret that I cannot see my way to adopt this course at present.

    NIGHT BAKING.
    Mr. Banfieldasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the fact that day baking has been established in Birmingham, Coventry and other Midland towns for some months and that an ample supply of bread has been available for these industrial centres, he will make further inquiries before finally deciding that day baking is impracticable?
    Major Lloyd George: I would refer my hon. friend to the Answer given to the hon. and learned Member for Greenock (Mr. R, Gibson) by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service on 1st May, 1941.
    Mr. Banfield: Surely, in view of the representation which has been made and the further evidence that has been given to him, the hon. and gallant Gentleman will make some inquiries?
    Major Lloyd George: I have received further evidence from the hon. Gentleman which I am looking into at the present time.

    POTATOES (LINCOLNSHIRE).
    Mr. Haslamasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, (1) whether he is aware that the efforts of the Potato Control to purchase potatoes from farms in the potato growing areas of East Lincolnshire during the last three months Have Been insufficient and thousands of tons still await disposal; that owing to rot and sprouting a high and increasing proportion of these is unfit for human consumption; and will immediate steps be taken to increase the rate of disposal to avoid serious waste of food both for human and animal consumption;
    (2) whether he is aware that the normal method of disposing of potatoes tainted or beginning to sprout, of feeding them to pigs, is not now practical owing to the reduction of the pig population in East Lincolnshire; whether he will take immediate steps to increase the rate of removal of sound potatoes during the next few weeks, also to stop the fall of the pig population, and obtain an increase where required; and whether he will consider revising pig prices so as to be remunera-
    28
    tive to farmers, and so that a due proportion of pigs vital to farm economy in this part of Lincolnshire may be attained?
    Major Lloyd George: In view of my hon. Friend's representations, I have looked carefully into the records of the disposal of the clearances of ware potato stocks in Lincolnshire during the last three to four months and am satisfied that, having regard to the need to retain a reserve for the end of the season, the disposal from this area has been fully adequate. I am also assured that no abnormal wastage is taking place from deterioration. If, however, my hon. Friend knows of any stocks which ought to be removed at an early date in order to prevent wastage, the owners should be advised to report the facts to the Area Supervisor of Potatoes, who will be able to take the necessary action. The fall in the pig population has been due to the decreased supplies of feeding-stuffs generally rather than to pig prices being unremunerative. The feeding-stuffs situation during the coming winter is likely to be more difficult than last winter and consequently my Noble Friend cannot see his way to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion. The level of pig prices in relation to the number of pigs which may be advantageously maintained on the feeding-stuffs available is, however, being kept under constant review.
    Mr. Haslam: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that thousands of tons of potatoes are still awaiting removal from the farms, and that at this late time of the season, when from 40 to 60 per cent, of the potatoes are becoming unfit for human consumption, it is certain that thousands of tons must be wasted, and will he not take steps in the matter to try and avoid the wastage?
    Major Lloyd George: In view of the demand no special measures are considered necessary to increase the rate of disposal in the particular part that my hon. Friend has in mind. By 10th May 47,000 tons of potatoes were left to be removed, and there is not a very large proportion left.
    Mr. Haslam: Will my hon. and gallant Friend make further inquiries of the local men, because the farmers are all reporting this sort of thing in Lincolnshire; and

    29
    is he aware of the loss that will result in this part of Lincolnshire, and will he consider the position again?
    Major Lloyd George: With regard to the first Supplementary Question, the figures that I have given are those which were arrived at after very careful inquiry, and there was nothing in our investigation to suggest that our information is incorrect. As regards the second Supplementary Question, as I pointed out in the answer, the position of foodstuffs generally has suffered.

    RUDOLF HESS.
    Mr. Silvermanasked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the results of the investigation into the purpose of the arrival in this country of Rudolf Hess; whether Hess brought with him any proposals indicating how the problems of Europe might, in his view, be solved; whether any reply to such proposals has been made or is contemplated; whether such proposals or reply will be published; and whether he will indicate the general lines of the Government's own proposals for the settlement of Europe after the war, so as to repair its ravages and prevent its recurrence?
    Mr. Stokesasked the Prime Minister whether the President of the United States of America, either through his Ambassador in London or the British Ambassador at Washington, has been informed by His Majesty's Government of the object which Herr Hess assigned for his flight by air to this country; and whether' Herr Hess conveyed, or himself suggested, any terms of peace, or made any proposal for negotiations with a view to terminating hostilities?
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): I have no statement to make about this person at the present time: but His Majesty's Government have, of course, kept the United States Government informed on the subject of his flight to this country.
    Mr. Silverman: Is the House to infer that this prominent Nazi leader came to this country without any serious purpose whatever; and if he had such a purpose, why are the people of this country not entitled to know what it was?
    The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the answer I have given.
    Mr. Shinwell: When does my right hon. Friend hope to make a statement?
    The Prime Minister: I do not quite know. If at any time the Government think a statement is necessary, or that it would be advantageous, it will be made.
    Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte: Is not too much fuss being made about this wretched fellow? Should he not be left alone?
    Mr. Silverman: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

    DOMINION PRIME MINISTERS (CO-OPERATION).
    Mr. Granvilleasked the Prime Minister whether, in order to facilitate closer and more direct co-operation in the Empire war effort, he will consider, as a war-time precedent, the amendment of the Statute of Westminster to enable the Dominion Prime Ministers to attend the sittings of the House of Commons during the period of their visits to this country for consultation with the War Cabinet?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Granville: Has my right hon. Friend noticed the recent precedent set in Ottawa, when the Australian Prime Minister addressed the Canadian House of Commons? Does he not think that that would be a good precedent for us to copy? Is he now prepared to satisfy public opinion by the formation of an Empire War Cabinet?
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the people of this country will insist shortly upon having an Empire War Cabinet?
    Mr. Benjamin Smith: Does the Prime Minister not consider that the Dominions themselves should have a word to say upon that?
    The Prime Minister: With regard to the first part of the Supplementary Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Eye (Mr. Granville), I have nothing to add to my statement, that the answer is "No." Anyone who has had any experience of the House of Commons would realise that such a step would mean a complete departure in principle from the procedure

    31
    we have followed for generations. As for the second part of the supplementary, which was supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones), that is utterly irrelevant to anything which appeared on the Paper.
    Mr. Granville: Does my right hon. Friend not think that the suggestions contained in the first part of my Question would be a very good way of getting over the difficulties in the Dominions with regard to this?
    The Prime Minister: No, I do not.

    PROHIBITED IMPORTS (CUSTOMS SEIZURE).
    Mr. Summersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the value of the goods imported during 1940 which were taken over by the Customs authorities on account of the fact that they had become subject to orders prohibiting their import, and the number of transactions involved?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): The estimated value (exclusive of duty) of goods seized by the Customs during the year I940 on account of their having been imported without the necessary import licence is 34,362, and the number of transactions involved is 874.
    Mr. Summers: In view of the ill-feeling and hardship caused among exporters from the other countries of the Empire to this country, who have had their goods taken without any chance themselves to effect examination, will my right hon. Friend consider relieving the position of those exporters by keeping the proceeds of the sale of their goods for them until after the war?
    Sir K. Wood: That is a much larger question than the one on the Paper.

    TAX-FREE PAYMENTS.
    Sir Irving Alberyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he now intends to introduce legislation limiting Contracts involving payments free of tax?
    Sir K. Wood: I have had this matter under consideration following many representations which I have received regarding the inequity resulting from
    32
    carrying out, at the increased rates of tax now prevailing, arrangements entered into before the war to make payments free of tax, and I have decided to make provision in the Finance Bill to deal with the matter. I hope to put down to-morrow a Resolution and Clauses setting out my proposals.
    Sir I. Albery: Does my right hon. Friend remember that his attention was drawn to this matter by Question some time ago? I am glad to note that he has now changed his views.
    Sir K. Wood: I am very much indebted to my hon. Friend for what he has said, but I have not changed my views.
    Sir H. Williams: Will the proposal involve a Financial Resolution or new Clauses?
    Sir K. Wood: I said that I hoped to put down to-morrow a Resolution and Clauses.

    TREASURY INVESTIGATING SECTION.
    Sir H. Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the duties of the Treasury Investigating Section; and whether he is satisfied that the staff of this Section are vested with adequate powers for the performance of these duties?
    Sir K. Wood: The duties of the Treasury Investigating Section are to advise and assist Departments on matters of organisation and method. The Section has been considerably strengthened since the outbreak of war, and steps are being taken further to ensure the fullest co-operation with the Departments so that full advantage may be taken of the experience of the members of the Section.
    Sir H. Williams: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the staff of this Section have always received full co-operation from the Departments with which they are working?
    Sir K. Wood: That is a matter about which I would have to make some research.
    Sir H. Williams: Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to make that research?
    Sir K. Wood: My hon. Friend had better send me some items which I can investigate.

    WAR TAXATION.
    Professor Savoryasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a person who is subject to the highest rate of Income Tax and Surtax in respect of income derived from investments, on saving £1,000 and investing it in 2½ per cent. National War Bonds in creases his net income by 12s. 6d. only, and will render his estate liable to additional Death Duties to the amount of £650; and, in view of this, will he consider taking such means that may be necessary to remove this anomaly?
    Sir K. Wood: I realise that the burdens imposed by the high rates of war-time taxation are heavy; but I cannot hold out any hope of accepting the suggestion made by my hon. Friend.
    Professor Savory: Will my right hon. Friend do his best to dispel the illusion, which is apparently widely prevalent, that capital has not been conscripted in the present war?
    Sir Frank Sanderson: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that it is against the national interest to have such an anomaly exist, and will he do his best between now and a later stage to see that it is removed?
    Sir K. Wood: I remember my hon. Friend speaking for some time on that matter on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill.
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer remove the anomaly in connection with the taxation of workers' overtime?
    Sir K. Wood: I expected the hon. Member to say that.

    LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (PENSION).
    Captain W. T. Shawasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will give details of the pensions actually drawn by the Lord President of the Council?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): When my right hon. Friend took office in November, 1938, it was decided to follow established precedent, making no modification either to the advantage or disadvantage of any
    34
    particular individual. My right hon. Friend therefore draws, and will continue to draw, the pension to which he is entitled by virtue of his past services under the Crown.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Lees-Smith: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement in regard to the course of Business at today's Sitting?
The Prime Minister: The Business already arranged has been altered. In view of the representations which were made to the Government requesting an early Debate on the fighting in Crete, we thought that it would meet the general convenience of the House to have that Debate to-day. The Debate on Civil Defence will, accordingly, take place on the second and third Sitting Days.
Mr. Shinwell: Can the Prime Minister say whether he has now given consideration to the request that an early Debate should be arranged on the shipping situation, and whether, having regard to the statement attributed to Mr. Menzies, that transportation is at the bottom of the recent trouble, he will expedite the arrangements and have it soon?
The Prime Minister: I think that that matter had better be discussed through the usual channels, but I see no reason why there should not be a discussion upon the subject.
Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman also consider having such a Debate in public?
The Prime Minister: Of course we can have Debates either in public or in secret, but a very different range of discussion id open in public.
Mr. Shinwell: Does not the Prime Minister appreciate that we have already had two Debates On the shipping situation in Secret Session, and that it is desirable, in all the circumstances, that a Debate, however restricted, should be in public?
The Prime Minister: I am very much in the hands of the House whether the Debate is in public or in private, so long as the greatest discretion is observed, as it has been observed.
Sir I. Albery: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many back-benchers desire to take part in the Debate on the fighting in Crete in the hope that they may make some constructive suggestions and perhaps also some criticisms which may not be unuseful to the Government, but if only one day is allowed for the Debate, it will be impossible?
The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I am not able to give another day at this moment. After all, the House can revert to war topics at different periods, but if it would be convenient to the House, we should be quite ready to move the suspension of the Standing Order so that the Debate could go on for a further hour.
Sir Waldron Smithers: Can the Prime Minister state when a day will be available for a Debate on propaganda?
The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I could not answer that question without notice.
Commander Sir Archibald Southby: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of his reply to my hon. Friend, he is going to move that the Rule be suspended to-day in order to enable the Debate to be extended; and, further, will he bear in mind that in the two days' Debate which took place on the fighting in Greece there were at least three Government speakers who took part, and that in the two days only 22 Members of the House had an opportunity of speaking?
Mr. Lees-Smith: Does the Prime Minister propose to open the Debate or to wind up?
The Prime Minister: I propose to wind up.
Sir A. Southby: Does my right hon. Friend propose to move the suspension of the Rule or not?
The Prime Minister: If my hon. and gallant Friend will restrain his impatience, I intend to move the suspension of the Rule. I would like to mention to the House that I had thought I might make a short statement on the progress of our armies in Syria, and I sent a special request that any information available should come to me here. Unhappily, it has not reached me at this moment, otherwise I would have put it in the possession of the House
Mr. Maxton: The Prime Minister, I gather, is proposing to close the Debate to-day. Are we to have from any other Minister of the Crown some precise information about what happened in Crete, and will that Minister be a Minister who has knowledge of the various aspects of the matter?
The Prime Minister: No, Sir; we were asked to provide facilities for Debate on this subject from various quarters of the House. His Majesty's Government would not themselves have thought that this was a convenient moment, or a convenient peg on which to hang such a Debate, but in deference to the views expressed to them—although different from our own—we have made the arrangements which the House desires to-enable any criticism or attacks which may be made on the Government to be delivered without my having exhausted my right of speaking. With regard to a statement by another Minister, the time is already limited, although we propose to extend it. As has been pointed out, a lot of time was taken up by Ministers in the other Debate.
Mr. Shinwell: If that is the intention of my right hon. Friend, will he agree that it is desirable that at the conclusion of the Debate, when he is winding up, he should not confine himself to replying to critics but should tell us something of what has happened?
The Prime Minister: I think the only way of replying to critics on this matter is to set their criticisms in the general framework of the operations which are proceeding.
Mr. A. Bevan: While it is very good Government strategy that the right hon. Gentleman should wind up the Debate, may I ask, in view of the fact that there is no Vote of Censure before the House, whether it would not assist the House of Commons to do its public duty much better if an official statement were made at the beginning of the Debate? Would not the procedure now proposed lead to a lot of acrimonious debating on small points rather than a dignified consideration of the whole position?
The Prime Minister: The Government have many difficulties to contend with, and the House has always allowed them —sometimes under protest but has

37
always, in fact, allowed them—to take charge of their methods of conducting their own defence and their own Debate.
Sir I. Albery: Arising out of the statement that the Government did not desire this Debate but that representations were made to the Prime Minister that the House required it, will the Prime Minister say from what source he received these representations? I, like many other Members of the House, was here last week and heard nothing whatever about it. Now we are informed that we are, against the Government's desire, to have a Debate.
The Prime Minister: It is quite true that when there are no organised forces of opposition it is difficult to ascertain exactly what are the wishes of the House. I have stated that our view was that a better opportunity might have been found, probably later in the month, to discuss this matter, but although His Majesty's Government may have this view, and undoubtedly have a majority, we deferred to the wishes of the minority sections of opinion in the House— [HON. MEMBERS: "Who are they?"] —and endeavoured, as far as possible, to meet their wishes, even when we ourselves did not agree with them. That is the way in which our business is conducted here. If, of course, I could have gone so far as to say that it was not in the public interest, I should have asked the House to support the Government in that view, but I think that the argument about not being in the public interest is one which has to be sparingly invoked; and I keep it for occasions when I am thoroughly convinced that such is the case.
Earl Winterton: Would my right hon. Friend inform us what were these minority channels through which a request was made for the Debate?
The Prime Minister: I received representations through the Government Whips, who had consulted various Members. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who were they?"] I believe the Parliamentary Labour party, among others, asked that there should be a Debate. I believe, also, that the Liberal party would have liked it, and I heard that there were also some Members of our own party—indeed, there has been some evidence of this to-day. We are always willing to meet Members'
38
wishes when that can be done without detriment to the public interest, and I, naturally, submitted.
Mr. Bevan: It is obvious that it is the general wish of the House to have a Debate, and it is obvious that there is a general desire in the country that there should be a Debate, but the Debate has, in fact, been decided upon, on the initiative of the Government. If the Debate had been arranged upon the initiative of any discernible section of the House, it could have been opened in an intelligent manner, but after the Debate has been decided upon by the Government, is it not in the public interest that an official statement should be made by a Government official at the opening? Surely our Parliamentary procedure in such circumstances can only be carried on decently in some such fashion. I beg the Prime Minister to consider whether he could not open the Debate, or whether some other responsible person could not put the House in possession of the facts at the outset?
Mr. Maxton: I am a member of the Opposition in this House, and I never asked for a Debate to-day. What the Government have said to me now is that they will have a Debate and extend the Sitting of the House for the purposes of the Debate. I do not know whether there is a demand in the House for a Debate or not, but I think there is a demand in the House and the country for some more knowledge of the whole thing than we had from the newspapers last week, when the House was not meeting. As far as I am concerned, it is possible that an ordinary, intelligent statement from the Government would satisfy myself and my hon. Friends, and I suggest that the Prime Minister should have one Minister or another to give us the information that the House and the country have a right to know before we consider going on further with the Debate.
Sir A. Southby: In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in replying to another question about who asked for this Debate, appeared to indicate, by turning round in my direction, that I, perhaps, had been one of those who did so, may I put it on record that I had no knowledge of this Debate and did not ask for such a Debate at any time?
The Prime Minister: My hon. and gallant Friend may leave the court without a stain on his character. With regard to the other matter, I really feel that I must ask the House to support me and the Government in any arrangement which we think will be most convenient to the House.
Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. If there is a ragged and undirected Debate, and if, at the finish, the Prime Minister makes a statement containing matter of urgent national importance, shall we have an opportunity of debating that statement? Are we not entitled to such an opportunity?
Sir H. Morris-Jones: May I put a further point of Order? I understand that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is about to move that the House should extend its Sitting to-day by an hour. Some of us on these benches would like to extend the Sitting further [HON. MEMBERS: "Order"]. May I develop my point?
Mr. Speaker: I can save the hon. Member the trouble of developing his point further. As a matter of fact the Prime Minister could not move that the House should extend the Sitting by an hour without having given notice, but the right hon. Gentleman can move that the Rule be suspended indefinitely at this Sitting.
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on any Motion for the Adjournment of the House that may be moved by a Minister of the Crown at this day's Sitting be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)." — [The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [8th Allotted Day.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1941.
  UNCLASSIFIED SERVICES.

    MINISTRY OF HOME SECURITY.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £90, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Home Security." [Note. — £10 has been voted on account.]
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again" put, and agreed to. — [Mr. James Stuart.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

  WAR SITUATION.

    DEFENCE OF CRETE.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." — [Mr. James Stuart.]
    Mr. Lees-Smith: The attention of the country is, at the present moment, mainly concentrated on the Eastern Mediterranean, and I wish to confine my remarks mainly, though not wholly, to that area of the war. I may say that I should be very surprised if there should be a rancorous Debate on this subject, and I think it will be found that this Debate will be useful. There is quite a number of questions in the public mind and I shall endeavour to formulate those questions as shortly as possible. I think that, at the end of the Debate, it will be found that very useful purposes will have been served, if the Prime Minister has the opportunity of giving such answers to those questions as he thinks are in the national interest at this moment.
    In regard to this Eastern Mediterranean theatre of war, we must keep the background of recent events in our minds.
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    For very many months we had, in this area, a spectacular series of victories, during which we defeated the Italian Fleet, broke up the Italian forces in Libya, destroyed the Italian Empire in Abyssinia, Eritrea and Somaliland and opened the Suez Canal to American supplies. Looking back for some months we find all that record in the background of more recent events. Recently, German armoured divisions have made a disturbing appearance on the West of Egypt, we have evacuated Greece and the evacuation of Crete has given the enemy considerable freedom of action in the Ægean and the Dardanelles and, more important than that, it will undoubtedly limit the action of the British Fleet in preventing supplies for the German Panzer Divisions getting from Sicily across the Mediterranean. I think it will be useful to have a Debate like that on which we are now entering, in order to elucidate the question of whether any of these recent events have been due to mistakes from which conclusions can be drawn as to future operations.
    Before stating the questions which I want to ask, there is one fact which has to be borne in mind throughout. In all this area of warfare, the overriding difficulty is not mistakes, but the simple fact that General Wavell has to conduct a number of campaigns simultaneously, in each one of which he is out-numbered and out-machined. That is due to the facts of the past. It seems to me that he always has to be like one of the jugglers one sees at shows throwing up half-a-dozen balls at the same time. The whole possibility of his avoiding serious reverses has depended upon the most precise timing by which it has been necessary for him to bring one campaign to a conclusion and transfer his troops just before the other campaign reached its peak. I am not surprised that there may have been certain breakdowns in the interval. As a matter of fact, looking back to the past, I think we can congratulate General Wavell and congratulate ourselves that the campaign in Abyssinia, Eritrea and Somaliland was practically concluded while the Germans were still held in Libya, and that the campaign in Iraq has been practically wound up just before the campaign in Syria has begun. Therefore, I say that I shall not be surprised if the answer that is given to a number of the

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    questions which I shall now ask lies in the fact I have just pointed out, that you cannot have British forces and British machines everywhere at the same time.
    To turn to Crete, certainly I shall not question the decision to defend that island. This country is at the moment fighting a great delaying action, which began with the fall of France and will continue right into next year until the superiority of material is on our side. It is a delaying action of almost two years, and during that delaying action it is absolutely essential that Hitler should be held up and delayed everywhere where resistance is possible. In the case of a campaign such as that in Crete, we may all be very wise after the event, but, in fact, nobody could foresee what would be the issue of a battle for which there was no precedent in the history of war. We know what our own losses have been, but we do not yet know to what extent Germany's striking power has been affected and to what extent that may influence the result of the other campaigns to which the war has already moved.
    I will try to put shortly what I think are the public anxieties arising out of the Crete campaign. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister will reply to such of these questions as may be desirable. The first question is the most obvious one. We had been in control of the three aerodromes at Malemi, Heraklion and Retimo for about seven months, and yet, at quite an early stage of the battle, our Air Force was withdrawn because of the lack of aerodromes. Undoubtedly, it was the withdrawal of our Air Force from Crete which led to the reverse; and of course, the public wants to know why. I have seen the explanations which have been given. The main explanation is that when you are operating from three small aerodromes and the enemy are operating from nine large aerodromes within striking distance, both your Air Force and your aerodromes may be driven out by sheer weight of numbers. That is the main explanation I have seen; but if that be the explanation, it leads to further questions. That possibility must have been foreseen all along; and it raises the questions, Was it impossible to enlarge those aerodromes during the seven months, was it impossible to create new
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    aerodromes during the same period? Those are obvious questions.
    The other series of questions arise from this fact. It is clear that, although we had ourselves evacuated the aerodromes, if nevertheless we had been able to deny them to the enemy, to make it impossible for the enemy to take them, even then the battle might have been saved, because I think it is pretty clear that even after our Air Force was withdrawn, it was a very closely-run thing as to whether we should not still be able to hold the situation. But it is clear that it was the capture of Malemi aerodrome which was the turning point in the battle. This raises the questions whether it would not have been possible in the intervening period to fortify those aerodromes, to provide them with tanks in sufficient number and of sufficient size to attack any forces which landed, to mine the aerodromes in advance so as to blow them up and make them very difficult for landing, and to cover them with heavy artillery which would break to pieces any forces which actually occupied them. Those are questions that have been asked. There is another question. After our Air Force was withdrawn, there was an interval before the alternative air support from Egypt came upon the scene. There was an interval of 48 hours, and, of course, those 48 hours were far more vital to the operations than any 48 hours which came afterwards; but during those 48 hours we had no Air Force over Crete. I think those are the most important issues which are in the public mind.
    There are, then, one or two other matters that are taken from the reports of the battle. It is clear that in the actual land fighting the main weapon seems to have been the Tommy gun. It is rather surprising that in this weapon the Germans who had to land from the air were better equipped than our own Forces which had been there for seven months. I see that our troops very quickly learned the use of the Tommy guns when they had them, but they relied largely upon those which they captured from the Germans. There is then a last question which has been put to me by one who is very well acquainted with Crete. Why was not more use made of the Cretan fighters, as distinct from the Greeks? I have been told that there are at least 20,000 Cretans between 20 and 40 years of

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    age. I have been told that they are very tough, that they are superbly courageous, that they are well accustomed to guerilla warfare in their own hills, and that most of them are very good shots. As a matter of fact, they had been disarmed before the war began, during one of those insurrectionary periods through which Crete used to pass. Therefore they had no rifles when the war began, whereas if, during the intervening seven months, we had provided them with rifles, they would have been an immense accession to our fighting powers.
    To sum up, I would say that the general impression which is widely felt is that this war in the Middle East was not viewed sufficiently as a whole, and that there was insufficient long-distance foresight in the situation which might arise in Crete. It could have been envisaged since Italy attacked Greece. If Italy had failed, the Germans could not have allowed that failure to stand, and if Germany herself had conquered Greece, then Crete was very obviously the next strategic stage in her advance. It is suggested that although these possibilities were foreseen, it was assumed that Germany would attack by the more orthodox method of an invasion by sea, with which the British Fleet could deal, and with which the British Fleet did deal, but that we were unprepared for the new technique which Germany adopted, which we had to deal with by hasty improvisations which came too late in the day. That is the summary which, I think, can be made of the questions being asked by the public on this small-scale campaign.
    Apart from an inquiry into why certain things happened, a Debate like this will be quite useful if we bear wider considerations in mind. After all, this was a very novel campaign, and I think we can profitably discuss whether there are not certain conclusions which can be drawn from it with regard to the defences of our own Island. Surely that is a subject into which this House can very profitably inquire. We have all read Goering's order to his air forces after his capture of Crete.. He stated that the capture of Crete has shown there is no unconquerable island. Undoubtedly the German methods, as applied to Crete, have been carefully worked out to the last detail. They have been scientific, absolutely regardless of
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    life, and they have been unorthodox. It would be perilous if we ignored the possibility that some of these methods might be used in an invasion of this Island. I have heard a number of discussions on the conclusions which can be drawn from what has happened in Crete in regard to the defence of this Island. I have noticed that the answer which has been given is that Germany's success is Crete was due to the fact that she obtained complete mastery of the air, and that in an attack on this country she would not have that mastery, and therefore there are no lessons to be learned and no parallel to be drawn in an attack on this Island.
    I am not satisfied with that summary of the situation, although it has been made in very authoritative papers. Germany has adopted novel methods, and one of them, which has particularly impressed me as probably altering our ideas about the defence of this country, is her use of crash-landing aeroplanes. I gather from accounts of the battle that so far as parachute troops are concerned they are not regarded as being very dangerous, but that it is the crash-landing aeroplanes which are the danger. Hitherto it has been assumed that if air-borne troop carriers were to land, they would require fairly suitable ground, but experience in Crete has shown this view to be obsolete. The air-borne troop carriers used in Crete were furnished with old and derelict engines which were regarded as quite good enough, and were practically constructed of plywood. They carried a number of men in organised formations, and these planes were crashed in the most surprising places. If a certain proportion of the troops emerged, they were organised into formations at very short notice. I have heard that this type of troop-carrying aeroplane, which is required to make a single journey only, can be produced in Germany at the rate of 100 per week. I am not talking about gliders. This, I think, affects our plans for dealing with an invasion in two ways. The Government must have made calculations on the number of troops which will come by sea, and the number of invading troops which will come by air. It seems to me that experience in Crete shows that the number of divisions which may invade us from the air may be very much larger than the number we have hitherto estimated, and that our plans should be adapted to meet

    69
    that situation. The other fact which emerges is that formations from troop carriers come into action as soon as they land, and that they land as formations. Formations from parachute troops have to get together after they land. Therefore, the calculations which have been made as to the amount of time that will elapse before air-borne troops could attack will very likely have to be altered on account of this recent experience.
    I call the attention of the Government to one area of danger to which I think this experience lends more anxiety than has hitherto been felt. It is clear that attacks from troop carriers crash-landed, would the most effective if they were in a fairly isolated district where they could not be immediately reached. There is a very isolated district from the defensive point of view, and that is Southern Ireland. Anxieties have been expressed about the Irish ports, but this is another anxiety— Ireland as a landing ground for attack. I do not know what the strength of the Irish defensive forces is, but I know that at the beginning of the war they had a regular army of 6,000, and an air force of less than 20 machines. Taking the experience of Crete, the establishment of a German force in Southern Ireland would be a matter not of days but of hours. I fully realise that the conquest of Southern Ireland is not the conquest of Great Britain, but, nevertheless, if you had German forces established in Southern Ireland, they would have to be driven out, and the process of driving them out might divert very large bodies of troops which would be needed in other areas at the very moment when we are fighting for our existence.
    There is one further fact which was drawn to my mind by a question that was put about the order of Business today. It was suggested that the Prime Minister might make a statement at some time, not with regard to a particular area of war, like the Eastern Mediterranean, but a statement setting that area of war in the framework of the war as a whole, because I think there is a certain danger in a series of Debates in which, quite naturally, we concentrate upon our difficulties and upon those areas where we are at the maximum disadvantage. Neutral opinion is very closely trying to make up its mind as to how the war is going, and neutrals may get a very
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    erroneous sense of proportion if we always concentrate upon those areas. It is, therefore, necessary, even in a Debate like this, to make it quite clear that the Eastern Mediterranean, important though it is, is not the primary theatre of war, where the war will be won or lost. The primary theatre of war is this Island and the Atlantic Ocean. If Hitler wins there, he wins, but let neutral opinion understand that, if he does not win there, whatever may be happening at this moment to these small countries which he can easily conquer, when the time arrives when we can take the initiative, and will arrive if he does not win the Battle of the Atlantic, those small countries will be a liability to him rather than an asset. He has not conciliated them. He is stretched all over Europe. He has immensely long lines of communication, and in each of those countries they are waiting for a frightful vengeance and are ready for the attack when the material superiority has passed out of his hands. So that the main battles of the war are being fought by the public opinion of the United States, and those battles are coming our way day by day. That is why I think it would be useful, for a general survey of the war, to show that when you take it in its entirety neutral countries can see that we have more solid reason for confidence to-day than at any previous stage.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Whether or not they were asked to do so, the Government have undoubtedly been wise on this occasion to take Parliament, which is the source and sanction of their authority, immediately into consultation upon recent serious developments culminating in the abandonment of Crete. The event is one of unusual significance. For the first time in history an island has been captured by air-borne attack. That in itself is an occurrence— let us hope not a portent—on which we, situated geographically as we are, cannot fail anxiously to ponder. Yet we are under some embarrassment in that no statement has been made by the Government at the opening of this Debate, and I say candidly that the course of one's remarks might naturally be influenced by an authoritative pronouncement. However, in the absence of such a statement, one must draw one's own conclusions. The war deepens and widens—or shall we say contracts—around us. I trust that

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    the. Debate will be helpful, for, if the reverse which we have suffered were to prove insufficient to impart its plainly-spoken lesson, what but an act of Providence could assure the vindication of our cause and the safety of our country?
    Military setbacks are a part of the fortunes of war and, in so far as they are incidental, do not necessarily affect the ultimate issue. When a commander, having appreciated a situation, reaches a decision and executes it with real skill and energy, it would be as churlish to complain when things go against him as it would be ungracious to withhold praise when he succeeds. If, however, the reverses are due to errors and miscalculations of strategy, the consequences are more far-reaching, and the causes and character of the errors and miscalculations should be objectively examined with a view to ascertaining in what quarter and how they have arisen, and to applying remedies without delay. It would be helpful for the future if we were to ask ourselves whether at Dakar, in Cyrenaica, in Greece, and now in Crete the forfeits which we have incurred have not been at least in part due to an imperfect assessment of possibilities, and indeed of probabilities, and consequently to ineffective preparation. Except in the case of Greece, these are all areas in which the initial advantages and the opportunity of exploiting them have been with us. In Greece there was a period of six months to prepare before the arrival of the Germans. Neither the boldness of the enemy in overcoming obstacles, neither his ingenuity, his speed, nor even our own experiences seem to have been taken into full account.
    What is the course of events leading up to the loss of Crete, and what is the interpretation which has been put upon them as they have occurred? Let us make the perspective clear. Up till last October the sole major base of the British Fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean was Alexandria. The lack of a safe alternative harbour close to Italian waters circumscribed the range of the Royal Navy. Similarly a lack of landing grounds within the necessary proximity deprived us of the opportunity of bombing Italy which we should have desired. By a stroke of good fortune, as it then appeared, the entry of Greece into the war on our side
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    gave us unexpectedly the use of Suda Bay and aerodromes on the island of Crete. In acknowledging these acquisitions to our strength my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister informed the House that they would enable us "Sensibly to extend the activities and radius of the Navy and of the Air Force." That, of course, was true. The distance to Taranto had been almost halved. Our warships could thenceforward refuel in relays and thus maintain a more continuous vigilance. It became hazardous for the enemy to attempt to dispatch transports to Libya, and the campaign which General Wavell initiated was made all the more easy. Crete, which in British hands was a great protection to the Imperial Forces operating in the Western Desert, being only 200 miles from Tobruk, under enemy control, now offers a serious menace to them as it does indeed to the major base at Alexandria, on which severe attacks are now being made. It was no doubt partly for this reason that my right hon. Friend coupled both these places together when he said on 7th May:
    "We intend to defend to the death, and without thought of retirement, the valuable and highly offensive outposts of Crete and Tobruk." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th May, 1941, col. 940, Vol. 371.]
    Further potential benefits accrued to us through our occupation of Crete which I need not examine. If during the six months we had in Greece and Crete in which to beat the Italians out of the Balkans, and if possible, out of the war, we were not able to exploit our opportunities, it was, as we have since been told, due to a lack of aeroplanes or of aerodromes. The same deficiency stood in the way of our success in Greece. A hundred more Hurricanes, all the war correspondents concur, would have given us a margin with which to break the enemy's domination. It was heartbreaking, they wrote, to watch formations of German bombers escorted by numerous fighters flying over at regular periods, day after day, and strafing our troops and lines of communication with impunity. Despite the fact that there was
    "a plan which promised good prospects of military success,"
    the task of the Armed Forces in these circumstances—in the absence of air support—became impossible. This was the crux of the whole matter. After the evacuation of the mainland of Greece, and

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    considering its lessons, the War Office spokesman in a broadcast on 15th May said:
    "In the first few days the German bombers had the air to themselves. We could not help sympathising with the Royal Air Force. Hopelessly outnumbered from the start and finally driven off their last aerodromes by the advance of the German Panzer divisions, they had to abandon the fight since the fighters could not get from Crete to the battle and back again."
    Then he added, by way of consolation:
    "Though we are out of Greece, we remain in Crete. This Island, if you look at the map, is right at the centre of the Eastern Mediterranean; it has airfields and an excellent harbour. It is important to us. …"
    These words were used by Major-General Collins five days before the new attack opened. Already, General Freyberg, Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial and Greek Forces, had proclaimed in an order of the day:
    "We will not only maintain the integrity of the soil of Crete from any invader but we shall also, by God's grace, in time go forward from this base."—
    —this highly offensive outpost—
    "to restore the freedom and independence of the whole of Greece."
    It was on the same day that my right hon. Friend made his statement about defending the island to the death. Then came the news of very heavy concentrations of German aeroplanes on the aerodromes in Southern Greece which we had been unable to use, some of them indeed being in the Peloponessus, which the Germans occupied only after our evacuation of Attica. Summarising the position then, before the invasion of Crete was launched, it must have been obvious to the responsible authorities firstly, that the Army had been driven out of Greece because of a lack of aeroplanes or because operational use of aerodromes could not be made; secondly, that experience had shown that the Army, despite its valour, could not hold its ground without such support; and, thirdly, that the preliminaries to an air-borne attack on Crete were in train. Every one of these lessons was discarded. No adequate measures for defending aerodromes were instituted in an island of which we had been in occupation for seven months. The Army was not given its air support—indeed, this was withdrawn shortly after the battle began. Although it was known that the preliminaries to an air-borne attack were in train,
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    the official view persisted that this was impossible, and statements continued to be made that Crete would be held.
    "Air-borne forces by themselves won't capture that island,"
    broadcast Air-Comomdore Goddard on 22nd May, two days after the invasion and when air support had been withdrawn. He said:
    "Crete, so far as we are concerned, must be the business of soldiers and sailors."
    It did indeed become the business of soldiers and sailors, and sacrificially they discharged their allotted task; but at what cost! A bare description of what they were enduring in this desperate battle aroused the deepest emotions and, indeed, the gravest forebodings. Yet confident statements continued to be made by military spokesmen in Cairo. Reinforcements were sent, but unfortunately not of a kind which could alone have saved the situation. Without the requisite overhead protection the Navy lost, as far as we have been informed up to this day, four cruisers and six destroyers sunk, and several warships were damaged—casualties greater than those we inflicted on the Italians in the battle of Cape Matapan.
    Why was the Fleet called upon to operate in narrow waters and the Army required to undertake so desperate a task in circumstances which neglected every dictate of experience? The Government were formed following the events in Norway. There it had been shown under what a handicap the Fleet laboured in the discharge of operations within the range of the land-based Luftwaffe. There it had been demonstrated that an Army could not be maintained without aerodromes from which it could be given cover. Since then these tactical facts have been reinforced. They were reinforced in January in the Sicilian Channel, where our direct line of communication was interrupted and where we lost the cruiser "Southampton," and where the aircraft-carrier "Illustrious" was hit and the destroyer "Gallant" damaged. They were reinforced so far as Armies are concerned, in the Low Countries, in Yugoslavia and in Greece. Why were they not applied?
    Surely it has become urgent to draw a distinction between the Royal Air Force operating strategically—that is, long distance bombing against the enemy or in countering long-distance bombing by the

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    enemy—and the tactical role of the air in aid of the two other services. Aircraft must be recognised to be as integral a part of a Navy or Army as any other weapon. We have gone part of the way in the Navy by establishing the Fleet Air Arm, which has amply justified itself. Why should not the process be carried as far as this in the Army and to its logical conclusion in the Navy? Should we not give to the commander in the field or the commander conducting operations at sea, control over the land-based aircraft which are shown once again by these events to be essential to his task? As matters now stand the vital arrangements to be made by them before and during an action are for argument, negotiation and compromise between those who naturally take different views of the obligations and possibilities of their respective Services. Such a process may result in failure to provide what is required initially or in a delay or incapacity to obtain it while the action is proceeding. How can those charged with formulating plans or in executing them be trained or accustomed to think in terms of the air as in terms of the sea and the land if they do not habitually dispose of their own aircraft as effectively as they do of their other weapons?
    It is, however, not only in the actual battle that the defects of the present system are apparent. The trouble goes further back. The Air Ministry—it is only natural—will always attach greater importance to having machines for long distance bombing, which it holds will win the war. The Army, for its part, is unlikely to obtain quickly a sufficiency of the types which it requires, such as dive-bombers, ground strafing machines, or even transport planes, indispensible to its success, if it falls to the Air Force to balance the urgency of these requirements against its own particular needs. The present arrangements have hitherto been defended on the ground that they worked. The answer given in Crete is plainly that they do not. The Fleet Air Arm could not bring its full weight to bear against relays of bombers operating from the shore. The Imperial Forces were lashed mercilessly by the Luftwaffe, which had the air to itself. From the opening day of the attack, although the German bombers were not able to come into action until the positions of their own troops were
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    clear, none of our planes was available to resist them. One or two, it appears, still remained undestroyed on the Maleme Airfield, but from then until the end not another British machine was to operate from the soil of Crete.
    Never again should a contingent of the British Army be placed in such a position. It is improvident to allow the best fighting material which we have in the Empire to be immolated when vaster and unknown tasks may lie ahead. Is it not inconceivable that the land commander or the sea commander in Crete, if either had had complete control, would not have made provision for the air support required for his operations, or would have allowed such air support as was available to be withdrawn from him at a critical juncture when he knew that by so doing he would be placing the other arms, which had to remain, under an impossible handicap?
    Mr. A. Bevan: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Air Force was withdrawn from Crete on the initiative alone of the Air Ministry?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I was going to ask that very question. On whose decision was this course taken? Was it taken by the Army Commander or the Air Commander or in Cairo or in London? Who took the decision? If proper air support could not be given why were those ships and the Army left to undergo what they did? On what grounds was it stated that the island could and would be held? Perhaps my right hon. Friend will tell us that. It has been suggested that the tragic outcome of the decision to leave the Navy and Army to hold Crete without the necessary protection was because our side had no aerodromes and not because they had no aeroplanes.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): Who said that?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: That is a phrase which my right hon. Friend used in his statement in the House on 22nd May. It was before the final evacuation and in a statement made just before the House rose. On the other hand, it has been stated that even if we had had the aerodromes we could not have spared sufficient machines from the total force available in the Middle East. Between these two opinions lies the central fact that a

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    successful airborne invasion was not regarded as a possibility. You do not prepare against what has never entered your mind.
    Now, however, we must realise that an airborne invasion over 100 miles of sea can be successful without surface command of the waters, if the Navy is not given full support from the air. Simultaneously the Army will require such support. The Air Force must, therefore, have numerous and well distributed bases from which to work. The defence and rapid construction and repair of aerodromes, when damaged, demand their place in the most urgent category of our requirements. It is to be assumed that the methods of defence will be taken into prompt review and that assurances will be given before the end of the Debate that provision will be made against the new contingencies. It is evident that the unprotected man, even though conventionally armed, is not able to resist an overwhelming descent effected by surprise. The armoured fighting vehicle is required to give the necessary shield and mobility. In the construction of aerodromes and in their repair when damaged the Germans clearly have a more speedy procedure than we employ. They were able to bring their new aerodromes in Greece into operation within 18 days. We have it on the authority of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, in his speech at Wimbledon last Friday, that we are behind with our aerodromes as we are with some of our factories.
    I do not in the least wish to attribute blame in that matter to the Air Ministry, whose programme, I am sure, is satisfactory. I have made what examination I can of these matters with experts, and I am advised that for the purpose of repair, at any rate, it is not sufficient to rely on maintenance contractors. Their plant, tools and the man-power of which they dispose are strictly limited. If 50 or 60 aerodromes in an area, or, as matters now stand, two or three, were to become objects of determined simultaneous attack there would not only be an inadequacy of labour but of machines and of material. The Air Ministry might be well advised to have a corps of its own, like the Royal Engineers or Pioneers, under orders and trained as fighting personnel, organised in mobile units in each area. Each unit would have on its charge a mechanical
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    excavator, a caterpillar tractor, a concrete mixer and hydraulic tipping trucks. I am told that at present when such equipment is required it may in certain parts of the country have to be brought from over 100 miles away. As heavy machines can only be moved along our roads at an average rate of five miles an hour, it will be seen that unless some improved system is instituted the Germans if they could penetrate our defences and destroy a large number of aerodromes would, as in Crete, be able to dislocate the operations of our Air Force for a protracted and certainly at a critical time. If the Air Force had such a corps, detachments would be available when we occupy new territory to prepare the landing grounds.
    It is quite evident from the happenings we are examining to-day, and from the events which have preceded them, that in the sphere of strategy there has been on our side no adjustment to the tempo or resourcefulness of the enemy. What is equally serious, however, is that the great enthusiasm and impulse which were imparted to the whole people, irrespective of class, and to the whole of our efforts, when my right hon. Friend came into power, have faltered. They must not be further dissipated. They must be revived. When I say this I do not disparage the great efforts made by my right hon. Friend. It is desired on all sides to strengthen his hand. He has referred to the actual equipment situation in terms of some optimism. Within the last few days he has informed Mr. Menzies that the strengthening of supplies to the Mediterranean was limited neither by British will nor British resources, but entirely by the physical problem of transportation. That, of course, can only be remedied to some extent by further economising shipping space, by a more rapid and widespread concentration of industry, and by the strictest and most equitable rationing of all articles. After the Secret Session another encouraging statement was made by the Ministry of Supply on progress. Again, when I ventured to urge that tanks should be given the same priority as aeroplanes, I was informed that as many heavy tanks were being made in a month as were at the disposal of the War Office at the time of my departure. That is a matter for great rejoicing. I do not place myself in competition with my right hon.

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    Friend either in achievement or in opportunity. He enjoys plenary powers, which I hope he will fully utilise, powers enjoyed by no previous administration. I wish I had enjoyed them, or, rather, I wish the Ministry of Supply had enjoyed them in my time.
    Viscountess Astor: Why did you not get the Ministry of Supply in your own hands instead of giving it to the right hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Burgin)? [Interruption.] It is true.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I am flattered by the Noble Lady's intervention. My right hon. Friend has the whole motor-car industry at his disposal, which is not allowed to make a single private car unless for a special purpose—all now engaged on production of aeroplanes and tanks. I wish that had been the case in my time. He has no restrictive trade union regulations. He has all parties at his back. I do not know how far the satisfaction which my right hon. Friend has expressed is positive or relative, nor am I in a position to vouch for the accuracy of the diagnosis recently made in the Deputy-Director's Office of Production Management in the United States. It is a very grave statement. Mr. W. L. Batt, Deputy-Director, Office of Production Management in the United States, said:
    "There is not one shred of evidence that Britain's industrial military strength, plus what we are sending and have promised to send at the present time, is strengthening her position in relation to Germany's."
    Then follow a number of supporting statements of a very grave character, which I will not read, and the statement concludes:—
    "For us to suppose that Britain is growing stronger every day in relation to Germany is criminal folly."
    On such information as is available to me, I deem it my duty to warn the country that it is only by handling our problems, admittedly stupendous, with more vigour, dynamism and imagination that we can obtain victory. No false loyalties or personal considerations or second best standards must be allowed to stand in the way of achieving this result.
    Mrs. Rathbone: On this, the first occasion that I have ever had the opportunity to address the House, I beg
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    the indulgence of hon. Members. I should have felt inclined to wait a very much longer time before giving voice to my opinions, but I have literally been forced to my feet to-day, not only by my own convictions, but by the countless distressing and appealing letters which I have had from my constituents. We have just listened to a most interesting and highly-analytical speech from the right hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha). I do not propose to go into any such detailed recriminations about Crete or any other of our past failures. I want to put before the House the general feeling which there is in my constituency and certain matters which disturb me personally very much indeed. It will be universally agreed that recriminations are futile and are a complete waste of time unless we learn very definite lessons from those past experiences, such as Crete. But I feel that the time for learning lessons is becoming rather short; the people of this country, who have been so willing to accept explanations in the past, are not feeling so ready to accept them to-day. They want to see action, vigorous action, which will in fact bring alive the determination which they feel in their own. minds. In fact, I feel that there are too many avenues which have for too long had traffic diversions round them. I want to point out one of these to hon. Members.
    We have seen, as speakers have said before, the invasion of an island successfully carried out from the air. I want to ask the Government: Is the scope of our strategical and our tactical planning for the defence of this Island broad enough? Does it include the possibility of impossibilities? Are our preparation and our training fast enough and careful enough? If not, why not? We must stop thinking in watertight compartments, even as between one Government Department and another or as between the Defence Forces, or even within the confines of one particular branch of our Defences. One example comes to my mind from my own personal experience, but it is difficult to speak about it, because if one gives details, one is perhaps giving more information than one should in public; but it is commonly recognised that the R.A.F. and the Army must work in more close co-operation, not only in battle but in the defence of our aerodromes in this country. We, as a nation, have been

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    perhaps a little too inclined to look back to "1066" and to our coastline and to forget that our aerodromes are our frontline defence too.
    I want to ask how much training the Home Guard and the Army are having, one in conjunction with the other. I know many areas where this contact is working extremely well, but I know many areas where there is no contact at all. In other words, this particular form of practical training is left almost entirely to local initiative and to local commanding officers, who are willing to give extra time and attention to the matter. Surely it should be recognised that this should be a universal form of very vitally necessary training. The Home Guard should be an auxiliary arm of the Army, just as civilians should be an auxiliary arm of the Home Guard. Mutual instruction and training of this kind in the giving and the taking of orders is the only possible way that we shall be able to see the greatest confidence and co-ordination, which are needed in a time of crisis. It will surely offer the very best antidote to any fifth-column activity. The machinery for such co-ordination and such liaisons ' should become absolutely automatic in this sphere, as in many other spheres of our war effort. It should become a habit of mind.
    The Government have told civilians in this country—and here I come to a point which is disturbing the minds of my constituents considerably—to stay put. I ask hon. Members to bear with me for a moment while I recall the Story of a refugee who is staying as a visitor in a house in my constituency. On the first day when she heard gunfire, the refugee packed her bag, took her children and set off down the lane. Her hostess took her aside and said, "The Government have told us to stay put. You must go back." The refugee answered, "I come from a country in Europe, and I have seen. You have never seen. I do not stay put." The British people are a law-abiding race. They have the temperament to stay put. We must give them the training. In how many villages in this country has there been a mock invasion from the air, from the land or from the sea? In how many civilian homes have tests been put as to how they will carry out their plans in the event of invasion? I would go a step further,
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    and perhaps be a little irrelevant, and ask how many civilians have been trained to wear their gas-masks at regular intervals?
    This is one cog in the wheel, which I have brought to the notice of hon Members. I realise that it is not the only sphere where clarification, simplification and greater efficiency are needed. I feel that there should be no need for a suggestion to arise at a time like this that an Army air arm should be created, when we are fighting the greatest battle that we have ever endured. Surely there can be sufficient co-operation between the Army and the R.A.F. to make such a move unnecessary. Surely we should be wise to have a nation-wide spring-clean, now that the Crete dust is settling. The Prime Minister has led this country vigorously, unitedly and with singleness of purpose and directness of approach; I wish his method and spirit were as contagious as the measles. We might not be capable in this country of Nazi ruthlessness and tyranny, but we can and we must be capable of ruthless efficiency.
    Arising out of the post-morten which we are holding here to-day, I go so far as to say that I should like to see an Order of the Day issued to the people of this country to stimulate simplification and co-ordination in industry and in every branch of our war effort, and to appeal to people finally to discard once and for all the fetters and the red tape which hold up our war effort. I could read, but I wish to be brief, a letter which I have here from a constituent of mine, who is a member of one of the Civil Defence forces. He tells me that it takes months to get a decision of any kind, because matters must filter from London through Truro, Bodmin and Liskeard, to wherever he lives, through sub-unit and sub-sub-units. That is not good enough when we are fighting a war of this kind. I would like to see us like an athlete preparing for the last great match. We, as a country, should go into a period of strictest training. There would be a tremendous response to such a call, provided that Government Departments themselves gave very close scrutiny to possible weaknesses which might exist in their very midst. We must put first things first. This is not the eleventh hour; it is the half-past eleventh hour. Our people are more

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    grimly determined than ever, and I pray that the Government will realise that fact and lead with renewed vigour.
    Sir Percy Harris: I am very privileged to follow the hon. Lady who has just made her maiden speech. It was like a breath of fresh air from America across the moors of Devonshire [Hon. Members: "Cornwall."] Well, it is all the more bracing. Her speech was full of knowledge, common sense and understanding and was a most valuable contribution to our Debate.
    I was one of those, and I plead guilty, who were in favour of a Debate to-day. I was convinced that the country and the newspapers were full of rumours, leading articles and correspondence and, needless to say, that the Lobbies were full of discussion. It is far better to have a discussion in the House of Commons, where complaints and criticisms may be answered by responsible Ministers. It might have been better had it been possible for a Minister to open the discussion, but it is very satisfactory to know that the Prime Minister himself will wind up, and that he will answer the points made by the three previous speakers. Those who heard the three previous speakers will agree that they made in each case a valuable and constructive contribution. The right hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) was critical. I did not agree with all his criticisms, yet the speech was worth making. It is much better to make it in the House of Commons, where it can be answered, than to be written in the form of articles in the Sunday Press.
    We want to get the Battle of Crete in its proper perspective. After all, it is only part of a battle spread over three Continents, to say nothing of the Atlantic. We must read it with the victories, which have not yet been mentioned to-day, in East Africa, Abyssinia and Iraq. We as a nation are rather inclined to underestimate our achievements and to be over-conscious of our failures. That is healthy, because it means that we are not suffering from over-optimism. Nothing that has been or will be said to-day will, I am quite sure, prejudice our new campaign in Syria. It is a campaign of great significance, because alongside us stand the Free French as active partners. We are
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    all conscious that the whole world is listening to our Debate, not only the Germans and Herr Goebbels, who we all know distorts and twists whatever is said, but the neutrals, the Dominions—particularly the Dominions, which have already been discussing the Crete campaign because they were very concerned in it—and above all the United States of America. I am not one of those who under-estimate the happenings in Crete, although I think the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate was somewhat inclined to do so.
    I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonport that Crete was of vital strategic importance. The Prime Minister said so in the Debate on the Vote of Confidence. He said that we should defend Crete to the death and without thought of retirement. There is a public listening more conscientiously than we are aware for every statement made in the House of Commons, and that public was buoyed up to believe that failure in Greece would be followed by a great success in the neighbouring island. That was emphasised by the fact that great publicity was given to the transfer of the Greek Government to Crete as a permanent base for keeping alive Greek independence. Therefore, when things did not go as well as was expected, when the news of setbacks gradually trickled out through the Press and the B.B.C., inevitably there were disappointment and criticsim. The country, which follows these things to-day far more closely than it did in the last war because there are now far more people militarily educated than there were then, could not help realising that for over six months there had been time to prepare the defences of this most important strategic island.
    One gets the impression that in this case the Government, or whoever was responsible for the defence, grossly underrated our enemy. We now hear many explanations of what has happened, and why it was that when we were in occupation of Greece we had not enough aerodromes to retain that country, whereas as soon as the Germans came into possession they were able so to organise matters that aerodromes became available for a massed attack on Crete. I know there is a possible explanation, which we shall perhaps get to-day, to the effect that the Germans succeeded in having enough aerodromes

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    for this great enterprise where we failed to do so because the weather had changed, and drier weather made available aerodromes which might not have been of much use for our original purpose. But neither do we understand, and it is difficult to explain, the under-rating of the power of the parachutists to seize vital points and of the power of air-borne troops to organise large-scale operations quickly and efficiently. I should have thought that our experience in Norway, Holland and Belgium would have proved to the responsible officers that preparations for such large-scale attacks ought to have been made. These are points which might well be explained by the Prime Minister when he comes to reply.
    It is clear that air power is now a serious competitor to sea power. The technique of war is completely changing. If we have learnt that lesson as a result of our experience in Crete, the battle will not have been fought in vain. It is quite clear, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that the Army is powerless without an adequate Air Force. He pressed home his particular belief that just as the Navy has its own Air Arm, so should the Army have its Air Force. But technical opinion up to the present suggests that that might dissipate our force, and instead of strengthening our air power, dividing its use between three authorities would almost certainly weaken it. I think we are entitled in the course of the Debate to have an assurance that there is close and adequate liaison between the two Services. I know, according to what the Prime Minister told us in the recent Debate, that there are regular meetings of the Chiefs of Staff almost daily, and that the Prime Minister himself presides over those meetings. In addition there is the Committee of Imperial Defence. But is there a staff representing all three Services working out the strategy of the war as a whole, and not merely from the point of view of each separate service? It is clear that the German staff work out their plans in the minutest detail. Nothing is too unimportant, nothing is left to chance, and it is clear that the two services in Germany work as one.
    I noticed in the '' Times'' an interesting report of the comment of an Australian correspondent, who said that German methods are dangerously unorthodox. We are not, in the German sense, a military
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    nation. In peace-time we have only a small standing Army, and therefore our officers, and our staff officers in particular, must be small in number in proportion. In the first year of the war general strategy was in the hands of the French, and I think we should like to know— and we may well be told—whether in the meantime machinery has been set up to secure comprehensive plans for combined operations.
    May I now for a few minutes turn to another matter? There has been a general impression in this country, and certainly in the Dominions, that the Australian and New Zealand troops have borne more than their share of the fighting in Greece, in Crete, and, I may add, in Libya. I have lived in New Zealand, and I know New Zealand people well enough to realise that they are proud to be in the forefront of the battle. But the population of New Zealand is only about 1,500,000, and that of Australia at most 7,000,000; between them, they have about the population of Greater London. Perhaps the publicity is to some extent to blame. Hardly any mention has been made of the particular British troops concerned. No reference to the regiments or to the kind of troops involved has been made. The impression has certainly been given that the strain and stress of these three difficult and dangerous campaigns, which involved heavy loss of life, has been mainly borne by Australian and New Zealand troops. It is clear that they do not complain. That is not their spirit. They are as loyal as any section here to the cause which is the cause of the British Empire as a whole.
    But the case has been made for a closer association of some Dominions statesmen with the direction of the war. I advocated that in this House as long ago as last August. I admit that I believe I am pressing at an open door, and that if a suitable politician from the Dominions was able and willing to help us in our councils, the Prime Minister would welcome him. But the leaders in the Dominions have their home problems. General Smuts, now Field-Marshal Smuts—a happy gesture to South Africa—has a difficult task to lead his people to close co-operation in this war; Mr. Mackenzie King, I believe, is 1oth to leave his own country at a time like this; while Mr. Menzies has a majority of one, and, therefore, if he were to leave his Dominion a position of great difficulty

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    and delicacy might result. But I would remind the House and the Prime Minister that when General Smuts was in the War Cabinet during the last war—and I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) will testify to the great value of his wise counsel and military knowledge— he was not Prime Minister of South Africa. General Botha was Prime Minister there. There may be available, although I am not prepared to name him at the moment, some Dominion statesman of character and experience, capable of understanding the military problems, who would be of very great assistance, and who, above all, would show by his inclusion that we were not looking at problems merely from our own point of view but that we were considering them from an Empire point of view. The case for such a proposal is strengthened by the happenings of the last few months. The fact that we have been so dependent upon help in the Near East from the Dominions emphasises the case which I put forward last summer.
    I do not want the House to feel that Crete is too serious a setback. I have a vivid recollection of defeats in the last war which were upon a scale 10 times greater than anything that has happened during the last 12 months. There was Vimy Ridge, there was terrific destruction of life in France, there was the battle of Salonica, and there was the Dardanelles campaign. There were, as a result, bitter and acrimonious Debates in this House. These things loomed very large. I am sure that the Government are wise to allow us this early occasion of discussing the whole situation. But when we discuss these problems, let me show that we have no lack of faith either in the Government or in the great and wise leadership of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is our greatest asset. Nothing that we say here should suggest that we have lost faith in his ability to lead us to victory. That does not mean that it is not our duty, as members of Parliament, to ventilate the grievances of the public outside, and to make clear what their criticisms are.
    Mr. Stokes: I, like other right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have spoken, find myself in a difficulty because no statement upon Crete has been made from the Government Front Bench. I am not in possession of more facts than have
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    either been stated by other speakers or have been culled from the daily Press. I want, therefore, to spend a few moments in reviewing the strategy which has led up to the present position. We know that we have in our Armed Forces the bravest men, and that we have the best equipment, although we have not at present, perhaps, enough of it. I have some serious doubt, however, as to the wisdom of some of our war strategy. The general position as I see it, is that Hitler, with his forces, is on a mainland, and that we are on an island. His difficulty is to know how to get at us. Obviously, the tactic that he should follow is to lure us out of the island on to the mainland.
    Whenever we take upon ourselves the job of invading the Continent, we are surrounding ourselves with just those difficulties that Hitler would surround himself with if he endeavoured to invade these shores and from which he shrinks. His war machine is mainly a land and air machine, while our power, surely, lies mainly upon the seas—and in course of time it will be in the air as well. Every time we land on the Continent and get kicked off, we lose both material and prestige. That has a deplorable effect upon small nations. It has just the effect that Hitler desires, giving them the conviction that he is invincible. In fact our strategy might almost be described as "playing Hitler's game." I should like to call to mind the various expeditions we have indulged in since the war started. Naturally, with France as our great Ally, we had no alternative when the war started but to send an expeditionary force to France. But what have our other expeditions been like? I will refer first to the Norwegian fiasco. I remember that when the German invasion of Norway took place, the Prime Minister said:
    "All German ships in the Skaggerak and the Kattegat will be sunk, and by night all ships will be sunk as opportunity serves."
    But were they? He said:
    "For myself, I consider that Hitler's action in invading Scandinavia is as great a strategic and political error as that which was committed by Napoleon in 1807 or 1808, when he invaded Spain."
    But has it proved so? He said:
    "I feel that we are greatly advantaged by what has occurred, provided we act with unceasing and increasing vigour to turn to the, utmost profit the strategic blunder into which

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    our mortal enemy has been provoked."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th April, 1940; cols. 747–8. Vol. 359.]
    What, in fact, happened? We sent an inadequate and badly-equipped force to Norway, including insufficiently-trained Territorials; with the disastrous result to which I need make no further reference. I would only add that it was followed by that deplorable event, the loss of the "Glorious," a ship which went down overcrowded with men and aeroplanes, and with inadequate escort, apparently owing to the nature of the instructions that were sent out. Our next mistake, I think, was the Dakar fiasco, and here again, except in so far as it caused obviously great complications with the French, no further reference is now necessary.
    Is there any real sense in luring these small nations on the Continent—I suppose there are none of them left now—into fighting a war against odds which to them alone are absolutely insuperable? I submit that in doing so we neither help ourselves nor them, and that the only effect most of these expeditions have had has been to cause them bloodshed and ourselves to lose equipment we can ill afford to spare at the present time. I ask the House to compare the strategy which we followed in this matter with what Hitler does. I presume that at one of these many meetings on the Brenner, after the invasion of Albania by the Greeks and after the invasion of Libya by ourselves, representations were made to Hitler that help should be forthcoming for his Italian ally. I do not know any more than anyone else in this House what transpired, but it would be more than likely that Hitler's reply to any appeal for help would be in effect to say that he would not come until he was ready, and that when he was ready there would be available all the support that it was really possible to command. With regard to Greece, if Hitler ever had any doubts as to whether we would send an expeditionary Force to Greece or not, I suggest that the butterfly wanderings of the Foreign Secretary made it clear to him that, if he cared to invade Greece, a force of ours would be there to meet him, thereby providing him with yet another opportunity to punch us on the nose. One of our leading critics of strategy said at that time:
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    "Our Grecian strategic blunder placed two armies, where Hitler wanted them; ours in Europe—his in Africa."
    As to the Greece episode, which seems to have a complete bearing upon what happened in Crete, Mr. Menzies, in a communication which he sent to Australia, said:
    "After consulting naval and military advisers the Cabinet felt that the adventure into Greece held a real prospect of military success."
    I want to ask a question—I do not know whether I shall receive an answer to-day—and perhaps the Secretary of State for War will put it to the Prime Minister. It seems to me, with but a bare travelling knowledge of that part of Europe, that the sending of help to Greece would be futile unless the Greeks themselves could be persuaded to withdraw their armies from Albania. I ask whether that stipulation was made to Greece before the Expeditionary Force was sent, because without that condition such forces as we could send, small as they were, were bound to be faced with defeat. If they refused to withdraw their troops from Albania, surely the right policy to follow would have been to say, "We are not landing any forces here. We are prepared to aid you to the best of our ability from the sea and by sending air units, with, naturally, aerodrome protection, but we are not going to land anything in the nature of an Expeditionary Force." The second question I want to ask is, Had we really sufficient equipment to spare from Libya? I would remind the House again of what the Prime Minister said upon the Libyan campaign. On 9th February he told us that:
    "Egypt and the Suez Canal are safe, and the port, the base and the airfields at Benghazi constitute a strategic point of high consequence to the whole of the war in the Mediterranean."
    Presumably he meant till the end of the war.
    Did General Wavell then really agree to a Grecian Expeditionary Force? The Foreign Secretary said that the generals in the East were in full agreement. We all know what that means. It means, very likely, that the venture was put up from this end and that the generals had nothing to do but agree to it. Was it initiated by the generals, or was it started at this end and the generals on the spot forced to agree to it or resign? Did it affect the

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    position in Libya at all? If in fact, as it proved, it was impossible to hold Crete, it makes it all the more insane to send land forces to Greece at all. Supposing instead of losing our material in Greece we had landed it in Crete, would that have made a considerable difference to the outcome of events on the Island?
    There has been a good deal of criticism, and statements have been made with regard to the relative effectiveness or success of the Navy with an Air Force against it. It is utterly wrong to allow the impression to grow that the Navy cannot face the air power, and that the Navy was beaten by air power in the Battle for Crete. Surely the facts are quite to the contrary. The two seaborne invasions attempted from Greece into Crete were completely driven off by the Navy. It is agreed that there was considerable loss as a result of air activities, and presumably had our own Air Force or Naval Air Arm been stronger these losses would not have been as large as they actually were. The point I would like to make is this: We went to Crete in November. The Admiralty presumably knew that sooner or later that island would have to be held. I ask the Secretary of State for War whether, at the time that we went to Crete in November, the Admiralty insisted upon such dispositions "with regard to future Air Forces as would enable the Navy to receive proper protection and support from those Air Forces in the event of an ultimate battle such as finally took place, which they knew six months ago was bound to come?
    Much has been said about the dive-bomber and the effect of it. I am one of the fortunate Members of this House who has not been dive-bombed, but I have talked to a great many people who have been so bombed. The newspapers seem to have got hold of the idea that flesh and blood cannot stand dive-bombing. I do not believe that. Lots of people who have faced dive-bombing admit that really it is psychological, rather than damaging to life and limb. I cannot believe that any kind of dive-bombing can possibly equal the kind of intensive barrage with which troops had to put up day after day and night after night in the last war, and which must have been far more damaging to life and limb than any of these dive-bombing efforts have been. It would be quite
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    wrong, and an insult to our troops to say that they cannot face it. I would recall to the House the story of Corporal Neill referred to as the "Mad Marine," who on the island of Crete disregarded the dive-bombers and shot them down with a machine gun. Corporal Neill's example could be well followed, and on reflection it reminds me of a story told of George III. When it was reported to him that General Wolfe had gone mad, he said, "Then I wish he would bite some of my generals." I would suggest that if Corporal Neill could come home and bite some of those generals who are responsible for the training so as to make sure that the Army is inoculated with the idea that bombing can be faced if the men are properly equipped and trained, it would be to all our advantage.
    I do not wish to detain the House with unnecessary amateur opinions as to what should or should not be done with the Navy or any other of our Forces, but I do suggest that if we admit, as we must, that our final success depends upon our ability to overcome our enemies in the Atlantic, then the Navy has a greater job to do than escorting and evacuating the forces required for what I would term these pseudo-Marlburian adventures into Europe. In conclusion, I want to say this: I feel that the strategy on which the war is being conducted is inadequate, and to show that that feeling is abroad may I quote from a message from Australia which appeared on the tape machines three or four days ago? It says:
    "It would appear +hat a stage has been reached in which the fighting places and necessary strategy are dictated mainly by the enemy. The Australian people would certainly welcome some new species of strategy, some plan of campaign, more comprehensive and more farsighted than anything at present being attempted. Questions of resources in fighting men and their equipment are vitally important but no less so is the need for a plan of campaign fully-rounded and all-inclusive."
    I agree with every word of that, and I am sure, from the many talks I have had with people in this country, that there is a general feeling that our war strategy is not on a sufficiently broad or understandable basis. No doubt this Debate will roll on to its inevitable conclusion—a rhetorical Blenheim—but oratory will not win wars, and I have nothing but praise for the Prime Minister's pugnacity and energy. It is just what you want

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    in time of war. He himself epitomises his own description of the British bull dog —" God so designed the British bull dog that he can hold on and still breathe." I recognise him as a great leader, but from the strategical point of view I think nobody should follow him.
    Mr. Beverley Baxter: I think the House will agree with me that this Debate is taking place as a result of the demand in the country, and I deem it the duty of Members of Parliament to express what the country is feeling. There has been very broadly and very deeply a disquiet among all classes which does not by any means reach discouragement. There is a feeling that in Norway, Dakar, Greece and Crete—with all of which the Prime Minister was intimately associated in the decisions that were taken—there has no: been a sufficiency of thought as to what might happen. There have been flair and imagination, but there has been a lack of real thought, and if you take one instance at Crete when our fighters flew away, think of the effect of that upon our soldiers, who once more had to pit their young bodies against the merciless attack from the air which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) looks upon with commendable philosophy but was worse than he imagines.
    Mr. Stokes: I do not want for one moment to belittle the effect of dive-bombing. I am sore ii is a most terrifying experience, but experience in France showed that it proved the least effective way of inflicting casualties.
    Mr. Baxter: The hon. Gentleman suggested that our troops were terrified—
    Mr. Stokes: The newspapers said so; I did not.
    Mr. Baxter: Perhaps we may leave it at that, but I think the decision to withdraw our fighters or failure to place enough of them on the island of Crete is perhaps the most serious point before the House to-day. Who decided that we would have only so many planes there? Who decided that they should be withdrawn? Did some constituted authority, presided over by the Prime Minister, say, "If we withdraw the three or four squadrons there "—I do not know the number—" are we ready to give in return
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    four cruisers and six destroyers? "That is the direct answer. These ships sailed into the battle of Crete with no air protection, and I think the House has a right to know who decided that we could afford these ships better than we could afford 50 aeroplanes.
    It is possible that the Minister of Aircraft Production—at that time Lord Beaverbrook—had something to say as to how many planes should be sent to Crete? As a member of the War Cabinet, he had a perfect right to do so, but is it possible that there was a cleavage between the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Aircraft Production? I do not know, but I have a suspicion that there may have been. I will not pursue that point any further, but we must find out who took that gravely serious position which resulted in what we have heard to-day—losses greater than we inflicted upon the Italian navy at Mata-pan. Who decided on the number of planes we would send to Greece? I do not want to labour that, but it seems to me that decisions are being taken hurriedly, without proper thought of all the consequences, and not giving to the country the feeling that there is a real strategy beyond opportunism, successful withdrawals and consecutive miracles by the British Navy.
    The British Navy must be getting tired of performing miracles; certainly we here in this country are beginning to get a little weary of it too. It has been said that before every great advance in a country or every great decline there is first a spiritual advance or a spiritual decline. Nothing exemplifies that better than the sad and tragic collapse of France, but I would say, with great deference, that with all the greatness, bravery and simple humanity of this country we are in the grip, not of a spiritual decline, but of an intellectual decline. We are at the mercy of the grooved mind, and that does not apply only to the public school tradition, although it is a profound producer of the grooved mind. It is in the trade unions as well. It is in every rank— ("an Hon. MEMBER: "Even among journalists"). I quite agree. There is a respect for the grooved mind which is much overdone. We are now facing men of criminal character but men with tremendous intellectual power. It would be foolish for us to ignore this. Their souls may be as black as the pit, but their brains are

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    working, unexpectedly and untraditionally. When they improvise something, they carry it through mercilessly.
    I wish to put to the House very seriously something which has been in my mind for a very long time. With the greatest respect to the Prime Minister, whose courage, whose language, and whose leadership are inspiring, I do not believe that the Government in their present form can lead us to victory, at any rate, in time for it to be anything but a universal collapse of Europe. I do not believe that in their present form they can do it. The War Cabinet is too large. It has inside its ranks Ministers of ability, Ministers of character; it has one or two brilliant Ministers, and three or four Ministers whose brilliance we must accept because they have not had an opportunity to demonstrate it in their careers up to date. We must in kindness accept it. There are in the War Cabinet Ministers who are good husbands, good party men, patriots, but who are not war-minded, and we cannot run a war with men who are not war-minded. Moreover, there are in the War Cabinet men of conflicting temperaments, Ministers with great Departmental duties and clashing Departmental interests. The War Cabinet is unwieldly and the result of that is demonstrating itself. Too much is put upon one man, the Prime Minister. We have only one Minister who can speak for the country. If he tires, the whole country is unexpressed, because we have one Minister only who can speak for the country to America or to the nation itself. I think there is too big a strain upon him. He is a dictator without the advantages of a dictator.
    I think we must have a new system which is in essence a smaller War Cabinet. That observation has been made so often that it is dull. I do not think we can get the results we require merely by cutting the present Cabinet in half. I do not consider that you necessarily improve a lemon merely by squeezing it. I do not think this War Cabinet would be right even if it were cut in half. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) spoke about an Empire Cabinet. That is especially dear to my heart, but an Empire War Cabinet falls on one thing. Especially in
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    these days when so much is being required of the Dominions, a Dominion Prime Minister cannot leave his country for any length of time. If he sent somebody in his place, what could that person do? He could get on the telephone every night, and say, "This is what we said; what am I to do?" It would be impossible for a Dominion Prime Minister to delegate his authority so that his nominee could sit at a table with the British Prime Minister on equality. Therefore, that suggestion falls, except possibly, as in the last war, for a month or two. Yet this is an Empire war, and it is time that the Empire had more to say about the colossal sacrifices which are being asked of it and of Britain as well.
    I wish to make a suggestion to the House. It is that, instead of having an Empire Cabinet, the strategy of the war should be placed in the hands of a directorate of Empire men. I have in mind the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Field-Marshal Smuts, Mr. Menzies, and—a name which may not seem at first quite to conform to the requirements—General McNaughton of Canada. I believe that if an announcement were made that a non-Ministerial directorate of those four men had been formed to direct the strategy of the war, it would galvanise the whole country. As I conceive it, it would operate in this way. The British Government would remain complete masters of the situation of this country. The War Cabinet would be abolished, but the Cabinet itself would continue. The directorate would have no direct power. It would be presided over by the Prime Minister of Great Britain. Therefore, when it came to a conclusion about strategy, the Prime Minister would then convey to the Government the directorate's decision, which would be his, and the machinery of Government would go into operation. That seems to me to be perfectly clear.
    Mr. Bevan: In what way would such a proposal differ from having on the War Cabinet representatives of the Dominions —a War Cabinet having no departmental responsibilities?
    Mr. R. J. Taylor: Will the hon. Gentleman explain to the House the position with regard to New Zealand? Why should not Mr. Mackenzie King be on such a directorate?
    Mr. Baxter: I must apologise. I failed to say that, before such a directorate was formed, Field-Marshal Smuts and Mr. Menzies would have to resign as Prime Ministers in their countries. They would not come here as representatives of their country.
    Mr. Shinwell: Would it be desirable for Field-Marshal Smuts to resign his position in the Union of South Africa, where he is so vital?
    Mr. Baxter: I believe that if Field-Marshal Smuts left South Africa to come here as one of the four supreme directors of the war, that would have a big effect in South Africa, and might balance his not remaining there.
    Mr. Benjamin Smith: Would our Prime Minister resign?
    Mr. Baxter: No, the Prime Minister of Great Britain is the head of the British Government, and he would sit on the directorate as chairman and Prime Minister. I realise that hon. Members on the benches opposite look upon this suggestion as Utopian.
    Mr. Bevan: No; it is generally regarded on all sides of the House as being an ill-thought-out plan.
    Mr. Baxter: I have given much thought to this plan, which the hon. Member says is an ill-thought-out one. What is ill thought out about having four great figures of the Empire, not officially representing their own Dominions but nevertheless being identified with them, sitting here as a non-ministerial directorate to advise on strategy? What is ill thought out in that? Once more we are up against the grooved mind.
    Captain Poole: Or a journalistic stunt.
    Mr. Baxter: We may have to call in some journalists to save men like the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Captain Poole), who has not had an original thought for 45 years. I will not press that.
    Captain Poole: The hon. Member said that I have not had an original thought for 45 years. As I have not been living that long, I did not start thinking as early as he did.
    Mr. Baxter: I am sorry. I must have put my case badly. In conclusion, may I ask whether this House is the place where, at a moment like this, one must not put forward an idea which is capable of argument? Must it be so crushed, and the inspiration so filled with sawdust, that it is presented as a corpse to be dissected? It seems to me that of all places the House of Commons is the place in which to put forward an idea. If it is unworkable at the moment, surely it is possible for it to be made workable by the House itself? The neglect of the Empire, and it has been nowhere more neglected than in this House, is one of the most serious things in our public life. If the House will forgive me, I would point out that I made my maiden speech, in 1935, to an empty House. The House was empty not so much because I was speaking, but because the Debate was on the Empire. For five years I have seen the House fill up for any foreign affairs Debate, and it did not matter what scarlet-painted hussy of Europe was to be debated; but in an Empire Debate there were only 12 bores talking to each other. In that maiden speech I stated that we should either have to develop our Empire and become Empire-conscious, or the very existence of the Empire would bring this country down. We are trying to fight this war under the direction of the British Government, with its own Departments, its own Civil Service, and all the impedimenta which go with it. I say that we must make this an Empire war and call in these Empire figures, but if my plan will not work, then I pray that this House will find some plan which will embody that spirit. But let us have it, because we badly need it.
    Lieut.-Colonel Macnamara: It so happens that the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) and myself made our maiden speeches on the same day, and during an Empire Debate. He followed me, and now I have the honour to follow him, but he will excuse me if I do not carry on the same theme. A few days ago I enjoyed one of those rare events—a few days of Army leave. I went to my constituency, and I found that there was far more concern among my constituents than I found in the Army, in which I am serving, over the circumstances and the result of the battle of Crete. I also found that there was concern

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    in this House, not only in the Chamber, but in talking to Members outside. I am not personally worried over this battle, but I feel there are many lessons which must be drawn and acted upon. I am not one of those who, after we happen to have lost the battle, wish now to criticise the Government, the generals or the soldiers who fought there. I believe the decision to fight in Crete was a right and wise decision. It was all part and parcel of the battle of Greece, a battle with which I found myself in full agreement. Personally, I believe we should take the opportunity of fighting the Germans in many places and of stabbing them. I believe that by constantly stabbing them we shall one day find, as they found in their tactics, the weak spots, and through those weak spots we shall be able to probe and ultimately drive through them. It is no good carrying on a war unless you are prepared to fight it in many places and take every opportunity of killing as many Germans as you possibly can, even though it may mean risking a certain number of casualties on our side. We might as well say that the retreat from Mons was of no avail in the last war. We may as well say that the Spanish resistance at Alcazar was of no avail to the side which happened to be fighting there during the Civil War. We might also say it is of no use from the enemy's point of view for Italy to fight a rearguard action in Abyssinia. Of course it is, and so are the battles of Crete and Greece of use to us. We retreated from Corunna and Gallipoli, yet on both occasions we won those wars.
    Once again I say that I consider the Government's decisions, and the decisions of the generals, were right. Nor do I feel any despondency on the matter. On the contrary, I am strategically confident, and I consider that the strategic decisions were wise. In a nutshell, the war strategy, as I see it, is as follows: At the beginning of the war we had large possessions and we had small forces to hold those possessions, whereas Germany was able to put down at any one point a larger army than we could bring there to meet them. Gradually that war strategy is changing entirely in our favour. We now see the contrary developing. Germany has great possessions, and soon she will find, the more she stretches herself out, that she will have
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    inadequate forces to hold them, and ultimately we shall be able to put down at any one spot, at our own choosing, and when we have command of the air and sea an army which will defeat her at that particular spot. War strategy, as it has existed, is changing into the exact opposite, and is going in our favour.
    I have just said that I am strategically confident, but at the same time I am not tactically confident—the two are not quite the same. The Prime Minister cannot be held personally responsible for tactics and administration of any army, or any part of the Army, or part of the Services. He is responsible for the major strategy, and that is going well. But all his wise strategy, including the handling of Allies, is of no avail unless backed up by perfect tactics and administration in the field. The House will remember that in the last war, when it was necessary to have steel helmets for the troops in France it was almost impossible to get them through until someone wearing a steel helmet caused a sensation by jumping from the Gallery into the Chamber of the House of Commons. I am not going to jump from the Gallery here, but some of the things I am going to refer to, although I have to refer to them with diffidence and with care, are just as important as if someone had caused such a sensation. I speak with difficulty because it is obvious, in the position in which I am, that I must be careful not to give away any secrets, and I ask to be excused, if I refer to my notes, not so much as to what I want to say but more as to what I must not say.
    To return to Crete, what has caused this despondency in one's constituency, or possibly even in the Chamber? I do not know the numbers, but I imagine that we had something like 30,000 to 40,000 troops, British, Greek and Allied, in Crete. The Germans had none, but in 12 days they were in full possession of the island. Naturally, when one thinks of it, people are upset by that tactical fact. They heard that there would be no retreat, and yet there was. Furthermore, we have been told that the battles of France and so on were won by the breakthrough of the German tanks, yet there were no German tanks in the battle of Crete. Nevertheless, they were in full control 12 days after the invasion was launched. We may have been able to

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    get some of our troops away by sea after the battle, but undoubtedly our full use of the sea was hampered by enemy air action. The Germans, on the other hand, had no sea support. They had command of the air, but yet we had very few real casualties. I mean that quite seriously. There were also very few casualties at Dunkirk. If we add up all the small casualties, British, German, French and Italian, and lump the whole lot together, after getting on for two years of war I doubt whether they would mount up, in killed, to the casualties in one day of the Battle of the Somme, and that is a lesson that we must take well to heart.
    What are those lessons? First of all, the Navy cannot operate effectively in waters near the enemy land bases. The next is that air-borne troops can quite well land anywhere if they can land in Crete, as Crete is a most inhospitable country and, what is more, they can be reinforced. Air-borne troops can come overnight. Let us take that for granted. The third lesson is that though our troops did not have very many casualties men may apparently be still easily demoralised by dive-bombing and machine-gunning from the air, which does not give casualties but, on the other hand, makes noise. It sounds a strange thing to say, but I am sure it is true, that one of the greatest and most effective weapons which have been used against us so far in all the theatres of war is noise, and it is a matter of training, which should be considered by the Army authorities. We must train against it. It does not matter about Crete. What we are really thinking about in our hearts is this country. I do not believe that these lessons have yet been taken to heart here. I do not believe they have been taken to heart in any circle, including military circles.
    Let us apply everything that we have talked about now, not to Crete, but to this country. Crete is past history. It is no good recriminating about it. Let us see how the war is going to work out against this country. I am sure that Hitler will make a peace drive. That will fail. I am sure he will try to liquidate the second front in the Balkans, and either liquidate Russia or come to some agreement with her, and neutralise Turkey and so on, but even if he does all that, and has failed with his peace offensive, still he has to face up to the bombing of Germany next winter with ever-increasing force by our
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    Air Force based on this country. Will he stand up to it? My opinion is that he does not want to stand up to it and that he will try to bring this country to its knees before he has to face it. Therefore Germany must break us if she wants to win. Sooner or later she must make the plunge against this country, provided we have the guts to see everything else through. She will make the invasion, as far as I see it, as follows:
    First of all, there will be a circling movement through Spain to Africa and then northwards to Greenland and Iceland, which is an island defended by our troops, and all really part and parcel of the defence of this country, to the Faroes, the Hebrides and so on, all islands, all very much part and parcel of this country's defence, with air-borne troops, and to various other places in the north. Next I am pretty certain in my own mind that they will go for Southern Ireland. Is Eire properly defended? If not, why not? We may have no control over Eire, but we have to begin thinking about it. After all, we have to think of ourselves, and there are such things as free Irishmen as well as Free Frenchmen. Have we ample troops now in Ulster with ample armoured support ready to go in and take over, the very first hour that the German troops start landing? Are Ulster, Wales, Cornwall, and the Scilly Islands studded with aerodromes prepared to give the necessary support to the Irish, North or South, against any invasion, and are those aerodromes themselves protected? Are they underground? Are there aeroplanes on the mountain sides and so on? After having attacked Eire the invaders will come direct to this country. They will come, in my opinion, first of all like this: They will strike a tremendous blow simultaneously at every single aerodrome they can in this country. On some aerodromes they will use bombs, on some they will use paratroops and glider troops, and others they will just neutralise by throwing down blister gases.
    I am going to ask these questions: I do not necessarily want the answers, a great many of which I know already, but I would like the people responsible to check up if they will. Is there an alternative aerodrome to every one of these aerodromes? Is every aeroplane at all times kept in a blast-proof shelter constructed above ground, half-way under ground or

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    below ground, so that they will not be caught unawares by such a sudden attack? Is every aerodrome adequately defended, not by the youngest of our soldiers, but by A1 troops who are actually on the spot, not an hour's journey or a three hours' attack from them, but actually on the spot with the weapons and with the proper armoured fighting vehicles or whatever may be necessary to deal with an attack? Are the airmen themselves all trained as infantry soldiers to take part in the defence of their aerodromes? Sometimes one sees 2,000 airmen at one spot. Are they being trained as infantry to take part in the defence of those aerodromes? Are they physically fit to take part in that defence; do they do the route marches, five miles across country, and everything else that gives them physical fitness to take part in what may be a very fierce battle? Is every aerodrome 1oo per cent. proof against gas, and, what is more, is it possible immediately to decontaminate every single aeroplane? Probably it is; I merely want the matter checked up.
    After the aerodromes have been attacked and, as I say, probably simultaneously attacked all over the country, next in the invasion will come the landing of air-borne troops. That is nothing new. The attack on Crete is nothing new. We ought to have learned our lessons in Holland, where an air-borne division landed behind the Dutch lines. I suggest that something like 60,000 German troops could be landed in one sortie alone.
    Captain Poole: Does the hon. and gallant Member not seriously think that he might run the risk of giving some very valuable information to the enemy? I suggest, with all due respect, that his speech is at any rate to some extent dangerous.
    Lieut.-Colonel Macnamara: The hon. Member who has asked me that question has every right to do so. I assure him that I have given very careful thought before making any statement at all, and I do not think that anything I have said or will say would give any secret away. If by any chance there is the slightest suspicion that I am doing so, I very much hope that someone on the Front Bench will immediately check me. But I feel the hour is grave. As I said, some
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    60,000 troops might be landed in one sortie of aeroplanes, which could then go back for more. We have got to be prepared for a very big landing of air-borne troops inland, all coming at once. I suggest that these will probably be landed with a view to capturing London. They will probably be landed in Kent, Sussex, Essex and all round London with that aim. One wants to feel that we have become not only island defence-minded, with our Navy and sea, our coastal defences, our Air Force over the sea, but that we have also become inland defence-minded, not only from the point of view of aerodromes, but from every point of view—from the point of view of defending every headquarters, every gun there may be in the field, and so on.
    We want to feel that the whole of our strategy of defence, our tactics, are now based on the lessons we have learned from the battle of Holland and the battle of Crete, that we are inland defence-minded, and not thinking, as we used to do in the last war, of a long line with the enemy in front of it, the line in this case being our coast. I wish to get that point emphasised without giving any details which might give any secret away. Meanwhile there would be the bombing and strafing of all our ground troops and our civilian population. On that point, has our Army yet been trained to stand up against—and I do not think this is any secret—this very matter of noise which I have already pointed out as having been a weapon which undermined morale not only in Crete but in France, and particularly against the French? We must be able to stand up against noise as against gas or anything else. I referred to casualties earlier in my speech, and I suggest that our soldiers have to stand up to dive-bombing—the bombs and machine-gunning from the air—and stand up to as many casualties that way as they did in the last war when they had to face shells and machine-gun fire when moving against the German defended lines.
    Above all, and this is the most important point of all, the air-borne landings inland, as we have seen happen in Crete, will be for the purpose of turning from behind our coast defences. That happened in Holland, where the air-borne landings behind the Dutch defences turned those defences. The air-borne landings in this country will, or may, turn

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    some of our coast defences. We must be prepared for that to happen. We must be prepared for the Germans getting into this country not only their air-borne troops but their tanks, through one or two gaps which they may make, especially in the narrow waters where, as the lesson of Crete has told us, the Navy cannot effectively operate, and where the Germans will probably gain local air superiority.
    Mr. Loftus: Surely the conditions would be quite different here; we should have very strong defending forces within very easy reach.
    Lieut.-Colonel Macnamara: I said that deliberately—where they would gain local air superiority. They would make an absolute effort to gain local superiority at one point where they wanted to get their fighting materials. They could also get them through, even without air superiority, by bringing them overnight. These tanks may get right inland unless one thing is done; that is, that every effort be made to provide anti-tank defence for our troops. It is much better than it was, but, on the other hand, I suggest that with the lessons of France and other countries before us, the Army should have priority over the other Services. The Air Force gets all priorities, and I suggest that antitank weapons for every soldier should be given priority over, say, long-range bombers. I consider this to be a matter of great urgency, and I hope it will be taken up. I hope that the Army will, if necessary, fight with the other Departments so that they get a real priority. I know the situation is improving, but, at the same time, it must get much better than it is at the moment.
    I have spoken fairly frankly, and I have found it difficult to speak at all for fear of saying too much. I feel, however, that it is possible not to realise how grave the situation is or how grave it might be for our own country unless we take more precautions than we are taking already. Although I cannot say very much, perhaps I may at least have goaded people into taking up matters around which my speech has fringed. If I have done that, I have done something. I cannot go more into details, but I ask the House to believe me when I say that we are working to fight a 1941–42 war, but that sometimes we are thinking in terms of
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    1914 standards and tactics. It is difficult to get matters put right. One sees so many things that one wants to get put right, and it is difficult to do it. It is impossible to do it through the normal channels; there is too much of a trade union caucus among the people who rule us. At the same time, one can go to the top and get a certain amount put right that way. We shall have to think in much more modern terms than we are thinking at the moment if we are to compete with an enemy and generals who are thinking in very modern terms too. I believe that we can do it, and I am certain that we have the spirit and the initiative if only we will use them.
    Earl Winterton: I think that I shall have the assent of the whole House when I say with what interest we have listened to my hon. and gallant Friend, whose intervention in Debate, owing to the important military duties which he performs, have been very infrequent since the war began. I do not propose to attempt to refer to his speech because, like my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, I belong to what obviously, in the opinion of my hon. and gallant Friend, is the very outworn generation of people who fought in the war of 1914–18. I would, however, venture to make one observation on my hon. and gallant Friend's speech, and that is that had he ever been in the last war in a really heavy bombardment, he would have known what noise was.
    Lieut.-Colonel Macnamara: That is my whole point. We should get our present Army to think in the same terms.
    Earl Winterton: I do not want to quarrel with my hon. and gallant Friend, but I have the honour of knowing some other colonels and, indeed, generals in the modern Army, and they would not agree that the modern soldier is not prepared to face noise. However, it is an interesting point, and, indeed, the whole of my hon. and gallant Friend's speech was most interesting.
    It is obvious that the mood of the House to-day is serious, not to say sombre. Those of us who have been here some years can appreciate very quickly what the atmosphere of the House is, and it is a long time since I have seen it more

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    deeply stirred by its whole attitude than it is to-day. It seems rather to take the attitude of Voltaire's famous words:
    "This is not the time for jesting; it does not harmonise with massacres."
    Massacres in one form and another are going on now all over the world. I prefer to use such wit as is at my disposal for referring to the remarkable manner in which the Government have arranged this Debate and to the ingenious statement of the Prime Minister about the Debate being asked for by certain unspecified channels. I think that his words were "minor channels of Opposition." Incidentally, that is a curious phrase to use about my hon. Friends on these benches and on the benches behind, because the last thing they can be described as is either "minor" or "Opposition." They might almost be regarded as members of the Government. At any rate, it is clear that this Debate was not asked for by those to whom the Government refer as the "embryonic Opposition." It is no doubt very convenient from the Government point of view that there should be no statement from any Minister as to the reason for what, after all, was a calamity, and that only at the end of the Debate will there be an answer from the Prime Minister. I venture with all respect, and without anything which could be described in the slightest degree as discourtesy, to express the hope that when the Prime Minister replies he will deal with the specific points that have been put in various parts of the House. For example, there was the point put by my hon. Friend below the Gangway opposite about an Imperial War Directorate. I do not agree with him, but that, as he said very properly, is the sort of point that should be put in a Debate like this.
    I hope very much, therefore, that the Prime Minister will answer those points and will not adopt the plan which is the easiest one for him to adopt—no man can adopt it so easily—the plan of not answering the critics but of covering them with ridicule and rhetoric. Let me say frankly to the House, which has always been kind to me, and allowed me, as other independent Members, to express views that may be unpalatable to the majority, that there has been a tendency in recent Debates to think that because the Govern-
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    ment have won a Debate we have thereby won a battle. We have not done so. It is very dangerous. This must not be taken as applying to the Prime Minister—I would not apply such a wounding term to him—but it is true to say that facts sometimes become obscured in the tropical jungle of florescent rhetoric. As I say, I would not apply such a term to the Prime Minister, but obviously I have in mind other members of the Government, and it is a danger against which we have to guard.
    I suggest that the matters under discussion in this Debate should be approached with a completely impartial mind, not weighted with bias for or against His Majesty's Government, because I feel the situation to be too serious for that. I should like to explore that argument for a moment. In the first place, I suggest that ordinary party allegiance such as properly influences hon. Members in time of peace really cannot justifiably function, and I will venture to say why. My hon. and right hon. Friends on the other side were elected, as I was elected, to support a peace-time Conservative Government. It has disappeared. My hon. and right hon. Friends on this side were elected, as Liberals or Socialists, in favour of pacifism and in opposition to capitalism. I do not use the word "pacifism" in any wounding sense, but that was the fact. If I wanted to say anything about their pacifist activities in the past I should refer, for example, to the question of the training of Territorials in the parks, to the Cadet Corps, and other things of that kind.
    Mr. Bevan: It is also possible to refer to the accusation of Conservative Members that we were warmongering.
    Earl Winterton: The hon. Member is the last person with whom I wish to quarrel, because we have certain things in common.
    Mr. Bevan: My right hon. Friend is in danger of narrowing the territory.
    Earl Winterton: I will tell the House what my hon. Friend and I have in common. I am quite serious about this. For one thing, neither of us is afraid to oppose the popular voice of his own party, and that gives us something in common. But what I was going to say is that we should,

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    in my judgment, be betraying the interests of the country if merely because we believe in the National Government and think, as all sensible people do, that the Prime Minister is the best possible man for the post, we refrain from all adverse comment and criticism. I say deliberately and with all seriousness—and here I think there will be no dissent—that that: way lies totalitarianism. If we are to say that because we have a Prime Minister who is obviously a great leader of the people, because we have a Government that is supported by the great majority of this House, it must never be criticised, that the Government and the cause of the country must always be the same, we might as well close Parliament altogether. In fact, I have no doubt that some people, even people in this House, would adopt the foolish, fatuous and dangerous attitude: "Why have Debates at all? Let the Ministers stick to their posts. Close Parliament. Do not have Debates."
    If some Members think so, why do they not have the courage to say so? They would not find it popular with their constituents. If they were to say, "I do not want any Debates, I do not want to bring Ministers down here; leave it to Ministers," they would have to say to their constituents, "I am not prepared to accept your complaints because I leave it all to the Prime Minister." That would be playing into Goebbels' hands, because the Nazis would like the world to think that it was a one-man war. I do not want to intrude my personal affairs, but I was broadcasting the other day to the Empire, and in that broadcast I denied that it was a one-man war, saying that we were all in it, and "Lord Haw-Haw" devoted eight minutes to replying to me and said, on the contrary, that it was a one-man war, that this House and this. Government would not go on without the Prime Minister, and that if he were removed to-morrow, we should make peace. That shows the danger of assuming that one must never criticise and must never comment. I say, therefore, deliberately, that if the country felt that we could not win the war under the present conditions of Government the people would demand that another should be formed, if necessary of elements outside this House, through the medium of an election. But they do not believe
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    —why should they?—that the whole genius of the nation is confined to those at present in this House and in this Government.
    In fact, no such crisis is in sight, and we should not fear the danger of its emergence to such an extent as would cause us to stifle any honest and constructive criticisms which we wish to make. The other day the Prime Minister spoke very amusingly of an embryonic Opposition. I take no exception, nor, I am sure, would other Members who were criticised, to anything that the Prime Minister said, except for one comment which I thought wounding and injurious and most unfair. That was his reference to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) as a sort of Marshal Petain. If the Prime Minister were present—and I did not give him notice that I intended to make this reference— I should have reminded him that he and I were once proud to serve in the Government of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs and that both of us, on platform after platform, said that if any man showed courage in the darkest hours in the last war and helped to win that war, it was the right hon. Gentleman. I regret that the Prime Minister should have thought it necessary to say that in any way the right hon. Gentleman resembles Marshal Petain.
    The Prime Minister paid my right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) and myself the compliment of attacking us and underlined our responsibility for certain deficiencies in armaments at the beginning of the war. I should like to say a word about that, because it affects the whole basis of this Debate, which is. With what arms and armaments are our Forces provided today? I will begin by saying that I an; indeed flattered to think that the Prime Minister should suppose that the 10 weeks which I spent at the Air Ministry was a period so fraught with possibilities of good or evil in our war potential, but he has thought it necessary to refer to it on three occasions. I may mention incidentally that my noble Friend Lord Swinton and I—I was Deputy to Lord Swinton—were at the Air Ministry more than three years ago, exactly the time taken by Hitler, starting from scratch, to build the biggest air force then existing in Europe outside Russia. Further, while it is true that the pilots who

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    won the Battle of Britain were largely trained during Lord Swinton's period as Secretary of State, if there is any lack of aeroplanes—and I do not know whether there is or not—I am prepared to say that the Prime Minister must obviously look nearer home for the responsibility for that lack of aeroplanes. He must look to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was two years at the Air Ministry, the most critical years; he must look to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of State; and he must look to the present Secretary of State for Air.
    I should like to say, in parenthesis, that had those of us who were at the Air Ministry more than three years ago listened to the foolish advice tendered to us from some quarters to make cheap mass-produced planes, we should never have won the Battle of Britain. It was the superiority of our planes over those of the Germans that won that battle. At that time I asserted, standing at the Box in the other House, amid constant interruptions by the present Prime Minister, that at that time the question was whether we should go for quantity or quality, because we could not then have both, and what is happening in America illustrates the truth of what was then said. It is true that the locusts ate a lot of the years during the period of the Baldwin-Chamberlain Government, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Lord Chancellor, the Minister of Health and other members of the Government could tell us how and why that was so much better than I could. What I am concerned to know, and what the whole House is concerned to know, is —I am not using an original phrase, it has already appeared in the Press—how many days, how many months and how many weeks the locusts are eating to-day. We have had some very disturbing information on that very point from no less a person than the Minister of Labour himself.
    It is surely not unfair—and this is an answer to many of the attacks which have been brought against the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonport and myself—to make the point that the war has now lasted 21 months. The Prime Minister was a powerful member of the Committee of Imperial Defence from the very beginning of the war, and he has been its most powerful member for the last
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    13 months. In the last war you could build a destroyer in something like nine months; we may assume that bombers, heavy tanks and guns can be built to-day in not more than 18 days. You have to build the factories to begin with, and train men and women to make those articles. With the unlimited power which the Government have possessed in the last 13 months, far greater power than any other Government have had, there should be, at the end of these 13 months, a pretty big supply of machines and ammunition functioning now. Are they doing so?
    I must make a further reference to a matter which affects the position of the whole country as well as some of us who were in office in the past. I took part in a campaign, now almost forgotten, in those dark and dismal days of the last war. I am not here to attack the Prime Minister for Gallipoli, because I have always been a supporter of his, over Gallipoli, I think he was badly treated. He was let down by the Chief of the Naval Staff. I am not going into that matter, but I say that when the Prime Minister or any member of this Government, or anyone on the other side of the House, twits those of us who were in office during the last war about the state of affairs in this country then, let them carry their memories back to the last war. Let me quote to them what General Foch said on that occasion about our position in the last war, and let them see how it is relevant to what is happening to-day. He said:
    " For the battlefield of 1914, the Entente had not brought more than a British Army of six divisions and a French Army lacking in the artillery and ammunition required for modern war."
    What is the situation now? As a result of the action of the Liberal Government, of which the Prime Minister was a leading member as First Lord of the Admiralty, the lives of everyone of us in that campaign were necessarily in danger, all through that campaign. We never had enough guns or men, due to lack of preparedness on the part of the then Government. Here is the lesson to be learned for to-day—and I speak of what I saw in Palestine, but I think it applied to the other fronts. From the summer of 1916, the supply of guns and men began to increase very rapidly indeed. Therefore, applying that lesson to the problems of the present war, I 'say, deliberately, that from now onwards at any rate, it will be

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    impossible for any spokesman of the Government to put the blame on their predecessors for any lack of munitions, except perhaps in heavy ships, big ships, and certain guns. It will not be possible for the Government to say, as they have said so happily up to now, "Look at the situation before we came into office."
    I go on from that to say that we are apt to be unduly depressed in the House of Commons and in the country by defeats and unduly elated by victories. The sinking of the "Bismarck" and the loss of Crete are defeats in a limited field, for our enemies and ourselves respectively, but they are indecisive, so far as the final result is concerned. I was slightly shocked by the tremendous enthusiasm shown by this House when we learned of the sinking of the "Bismarck," because, in the same speech made by the right hon. Gentleman, and almost as an aside, he admitted that we had lost two cruisers and four destroyers off Crete. I am not criticising the right hon. Gentleman, but I disliked the whole atmosphere created by the cheers at the sinking of the "Bismarck" and, almost as obiter dicta, the statements that we had lost two cruisers and four destroyers. This loss was very serious indeed, and we have lost others since. It has been stated that our losses have not been considerable, but I must point out that our losses in ships have been extremely serious and most grave. It was a grave mistake to adopt that attitude. I assert the old point, which has been made by many hon. Members in this House and which cannot be made too often, that the real battle is still in the shipyards, mines and munition works, and in the fields of Great Britain and our Empire overseas.
    I would call the attention of the Lord Privy Seal—he was good enough to agree that the matter should be considered—to an astonishing state of affairs. We were given by President Roosevelt, in the course of his "Fireside talk" a fortnight ago, figures graver, in my judgment, than any yet given, except possibly for a month or so in 1917. We were told by President Roosevelt, who was speaking with all the authority of the head of a great and friendly State, a man who is supreme in his own position and one of the greatest Presidents the United States have ever had, that our losses in ships were treble our replacements and double
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    the output of our combined yards. It is astonishing that a statement of that kind should be made by the President of the United States in a broadcast, and should never have been discussed publicly in this country. Does that not emphasise the need for the Debate for which my hon. Friends on this side of the House have asked, to take place at the earliest possible date and to consider the whole shipping position? [Interruption.] I would say to the Prime Minister, as he has often said to me, that I hope I am not interrupting him in his conversations with his colleagues. I could not but overhear something he said. I hope that he will be able, through the mouth of the Prime Minister of this country, to give us a little more information on this matter.
    The truth is that the British worker and every worker in the Dominions, India and the Colonies, are fighting the German workers. I should like to say a word on this question of help from the Dominions, India and the Colonies. For six or seven whole weeks I and one or two other Members of this House tried last September and October to get a Debate on the subject of the production of munitions and the provision of man-power in India and the Dominions. We met with the same difficulties that have been described in the Debate: this was an Imperial subject, and therefore it did not interest the House as a whole. After six weeks, we got a Debate. There was a very thin attendance, but an excellent speech was made by the Secretary of State for India. He gave us insufficient information. Therefore, I venture to put this point, in tabloid form only: We know practically nothing of the means being taken by the Government to exploit the enormous resources in manpower of Africa and India, the growing resources in munitions fabrication of South Africa, of Calcutta, Bombay and other centres of industry in India, and of Australia and New Zealand. I venture to urge that we should conceive a very big idea in connection with this matter. We could build up in course of time strategical reserves in West Africa, in the Middle East behind the present line, in India and in Malaya—where we have already made a start—munitioned and provisioned from South Africa, India, New Zealand and Australia, so that the Germans would know all the time, when they stretched

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    out their lines in the way described by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who last addressed the House, that however far they go they will have ahead of them fresh reserves of properly trained troops. There is far too much talk about this war as if it were a war between the 67,000,000 white inhabitants of the British Empire, helped by the benevolent inhabitants of the United States, and 80,000,000 Germans. It is not a war of that kind. The name "British Empire" or "British Commonwealth" is meaningless unless you regard it in terms of 500,000,000 inhabitants and one-quarter of the world's surface, and it is fantastic to say that we could not enlist to-day, if we had the wish to, at least half-a-million more men in India and at least half-a-million more men in Africa. It is typical of our foolish propaganda that while the Press has been full of accounts of the most gallant work done by the Anzacs, there has hardly been a word about the splendid fighting of the East African troops.
    Mr. Cocks: Or about the English.
    Earl Winterton: Or about the English, for that matter. Therefore I say that we have to regard this war as one which depends upon the great body of workers in this country, in the Dominions and in India. As far as this country is concerned—although we are not primarily dealing in this Debate with production— I think most of us would agree that the great body of workers is doing very well indeed. There is probably less trouble in the works, and less "ca'canny," than there was in the last war, but there are one or two black spots, and I wish to call attention to one of them because it affects the very question which ought to be uppermost in this Debate. I wish to deal with only one, to which the Minister of Labour has drawn attention, and I would ask the House to realise the full gravity of what seems to follow from what the Minister of Labour said. What we require most urgently at the present time are more and more aerodromes, of all sorts, all over the country. If we do not get those aerodromes, we may not have the air margin necessary to defeat an invasion. What happens? Quite casually, in a speech delivered about a week ago, the Minister of Labour appealed to the men constructing these
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    aerodromes to work faster. He said that they were being constructed too slowly. Can anyone conceive that in Germany the German High Command would have to appeal to workers to make aerodromes faster? They would make them, by some means or other, at once. [An HON. MEMBER: "And in America."] In America they have a much more drastic method of dealing with them. I was not advocating that we should send troops, but the interruption of my hon. Friend is quite useful, because it shows that other democratic countries are not afraid, when the necessity arises, to use very drastic methods.
    What is the position with regard to these aerodromes? My hon. Friends on this side of the House must not take this as any general attack upon labour, nor as an attack upon organised labour, because the men concerned do not belong to any trade union. They consist largely of elderly men and of boys of 17 or 18 who earn enormous wages by doing construction work. I assert, and I take full responsibility for what I say, that if you go to the aerodromes and watch these people at work, you will see that they are not doing a quarter of the work they ought to do. Men in uniform, conscripted for service, receiving a conscript's wage and having to work 24 hours a day, men who come back from bombing Germany, go to aerodromes and see this state of affairs. It is intolerable that that sort of thing should be going on. What is the way to deal with it? I know there will be an outcry when I say it, but I say quite frankly that it is for the Minister of Labour to announce that he has powers under the Act passed last year giving him complete control of person and property, and that for their good and for the good of the country it would be far better that those men, both under and over military age, should be put into uniform, rehabilitated if necessary, trained and given good food and medical attention, and then set to work. If the Minister were to say that, no one would dare to get up in this House and say it was a bad thing.
    Mr. Bevan: Are those aerodromes being constructed by private contractors?
    Earl Winterton: They are.
    Mr. Gallacher: Who get costs plus 10 per cent.?
    Mr. Bevan: Why not do the job yourself?
    Earl Winterton: I am quite prepared to admit that some of this slackness may be due to the way in which the men are treated by the contractors, but all I am concerned to say is that it is an absolute disgrace that this should be going on. That is one of the things which the Government ought to take in hand.
    In conclusion, I would only say this: It is not usual to pay a tribute in this House to the Press, it is rather the other way, but I think that as a great legislative Assembly we do owe a debt of gratitude to what is commonly known as the popular Press, especially the four great daily papers, the "News Chronicle," the "Daily Express," the "Daily Mail," and the "Daily Herald," which from entirely different points of view have in the past week made these points, which are the pivotal points of the situation in this country to-day, namely, that we can and must win the war, and that any faint heart who doubts it is an actual or potential traitor; and secondly—and this is equally important, and I beg the Prime Minister and his leading Ministers to make more of it in their speeches than they have done—that we can easily lose the war by our own faults as a nation, and lose it within the next three or four months.
    Viscountess Astor: No.
    Earl Winterton: Yes, we can, and it is no use the Noble Lady saying "No." People who say" No" are in many ways as bad" as Quislings. The two types of people who should be tackled in this country are those who say we cannot win the war and ought to give in, and those who say that under no circumstances can we lose it. Of course we can. We can lose it to-morrow by bad direction and in half-a-dozen other ways. We can lose it tomorrow if we do not take the right course. Therefore I would venture to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should say— [An HON. MEMBER: "What has it to do with Crete?"] It has this to do with Crete: Crete is not an isolated instance. It is one of a series of instances. What" Happened in Crete is not, as my hon. Friend may quite falsely suppose, necessarily due to any original tactical or strategical error on the part of the higher command there or of the
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    Government here. It is due to a whole chain of circumstances. One of those chains of circumstances is that neither in military matters nor in civilian matters have we developed and controlled our total available man-power and production power as much as is possible.
    I apologise for the length at which I have spoken, but I think the points I have put forward are extremely relevant to a Debate of this character. They are points which could be put by the Government, who should warn the people more than they do on the fact that what will win this war in the next few months is the adoption of the German method of putting guns before butter, and being prepared to put up, if necessary, with far greater privations than we are undergoing now. I commend what has been done by the President of the Board of Trade in the way of rationing—I think it has been excellent—but we may have to ration far more strictly. What the public do not like is to be told by one Minister that everything in the garden is lovely and then a week later to be informed that, notwithstanding what was previously said, it is necessary to impose severe restrictions, whether in the matter of food, clothes, tobacco or anything else. We ought to be told. We are living at a time when we ought to apply to this country a siege economy. We must not think that during the next three or four months we can afford to sit up and case off. This war will be won or lost, within the next three or four months, in the factories, in the fields, and in the shipyards of this country, and on the seas around Britain.
    Captain Godfrey Nicholson: In common with all other hon. Members, I intend that my remarks should be helpful, and I wish no doubt to be cast upon my loyalty to the Prime Minister, although I do not extend that to some of his helpers, or to some of those who hold prominent position in the nation. Great as the uneasiness is that is felt throughout the country, that uneasiness is not directed towards the Prime Minister personally. But there is great uneasiness. I do not think it could be otherwise when it is realised that every time the British Army has met the German Army it has had to retreat. This uneasiness is serious, because it is affecting the national morale and the national war effort. It is no good taking these retreats or defeats piecemeal;

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    considering Crete as a separate item, explaining it away, and thinking that you have explained away the whole cause of the national uneasiness. Crete is a symptom of a very complex set of factors. Unless we can use this Debate, this inquiry into the retreat from Crete, as a means of identifying the causes, this will be a Debate of mere recrimination. The first and prime factor is that of supply. I shall return to that later. There are many secondary factors. The first is the degree in which the implications of the supply factor affect our naval and military strategy. The second is the degree to which errors of appreciation of the supply factor have brought about errors of appreciation in strategy. We have made, and we continue to make, profound errors of appreciation with regard to arms and equipment. For example, throughout the Army there is grave uneasiness at the lack of air cooperation, the lack of dive-bombers, the lack of parachute troops, and, above all, the fact that in training in this country the Army seldom sees more than a single token aeroplane, and the fact that we are inclined to fight dive-bombers and mechanised forces with an equipment which denies the use of the dive-bomber to ourselves.
    I want to get down to the point that is worrying me most. I have already touched upon the lack of co-operation and liaison with the air arm. I come to another side of the same question, the errors in strategy that our Army leaders have made. I blame the Army primarily for the lack of air co-operation, because the Army are at fault in not insisting upon it. We are given to blurring over our defeats. Prime errors in appreciation have been made in every one of our campaigns. France was a disastrous defeat. We have had defeats in Libya. We have had another defeat in Crete. I pass over the Greek defeat, because we were forced to go to Greece for political reasons. Admittedly we were forced to go into Belgium for political reasons; but it was a very important error by our military leaders to go into Belgium if they thought it would lead to the loss of our Army, with all its equipment, as it did. In the same way, in Libya there was a supreme error of appreciation. Our victory over the Italians in Libya was as much a surprise to us as it was to the Italians. Our
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    retreat from Cyrenaicea came as a surprise. So it was in Crete. I think it was a mistake to defend Crete, as it was defended without air support. If that was a political decision, the Army leaders deserve full blame for not having refused to undertake the defence in that manner when they knew it was doomed to failure. If it was a military decision, it was a prime error of judgment to hazard such enormous forces in that way.
    What I have said up to now may seem disjointed, as indeed it is. I am working up to this point, that the uneasiness in this country is due to the fact that the same men who have made these prime errors are still in control. I am not asking for heads on chargers; that is a foolish thing to do. But if a battalion commander makes a serious blunder he gets the sack, if a staff officer makes a cardinal error his divisional or Army commander says to him, "I like you very much, and I shall be very glad to see you in peace time, but I cannot have people on my staff who make errors of this sort" But that does not apply to the higher ranks. It is the same thing in the Navy.
    Viscountess Astor: What about politicians?
    Captain Nicholson: Yes, it should apply to politicians too. The uneasiness which is felt is due to the fact that there have been no changes, that insufficient efforts appear to be made to find military leaders who comprehend the possibilities of modern war.
    Captain Cobb: Has it not occurred to the hon. and galiant Member that these military leaders may have been overruled?
    Captain Nicholson: Indeed it has. That is an exceedingly important part of the argument. If the hon. and gallant Member had had patience, he would have seen that that was the very point that I was going to make. It will be said, "It is the politicians who have given ill-judged instructions to the Army; that is the trouble" It may be. They say that it was the politicians who took a political decision—I am not using that adjective in any derogatory sense—to advance into Belgium, or to send forces to Norway or to go to Greece. It certainly was a political decision to go into Belgium, but if the situation had been properly appreciated by the British General Staff in

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    France, they would have seen that that was bound to run the risk of hazarding the whole of our Expeditionary Force.
    Earl Winterton: What does my hon. and gallant Friend suggest they should have done? Should the whole lot of them have resigned? How could they prevent right hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Front Bench opposite or the Prime Minister coming to these decisions unless they resigned in a body?
    Captain Nicholson: They could have done two things. It is very easy to judge after the event, as the Noble Lord will agree, and perhaps the complete defeat of the French Army could not have been foreseen. But they had two lines of conduct before them. They could have said, "We consider that we are running such a hazard that we cannot do this." Land warfare is an expert job, and I cannot see any leader worthy of the name obeying the orders of the Cabinet if he really believed that in so doing he would run the risk of losing the whole of the forces under his command. I say that definitely. Secondly, what they could have done, if they had appreciated the possible speed of the German advance, was to have safeguarded their lines of communication to the deep-water forts. I defy the right hon. Gentleman to contradict that. That is where the cardinal blunders have been made. It is the same in Crete. It may have been a political decision. If it was a political decision, did the Army accept the decision against their better judgment? A great general, if he is a great general, does not accept a political decision against his better judgment, if, in his opinion, it seriously jeopardises the safety of the forces under his command. It is no good soldiers sheltering themselves behind the orders of politicians above them. I understand that the successful campaign in Iraq was a Cabinet decision, and the Cabinet deserves our full gratitude for that decision. If the soldiers are big enough men, and make a correct appreciation of the position, they will not accept decisions from the Cabinet when they think that they would end in defeat.
    So much for this digression. I come back to the main theme, which still is the cardinal cause of our defeats. The secondary causes are continued failure to appreciate the need for modern weapons
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    and the sort of uses to which they can be put, failure to appreciate the methods of the enemy and above all the speed of the enemy. If to-day a decision were taken that we should go in for dive-bombing to the same extent as the Germans, how long would it take before our Forces were equipped with dive-bombers? At least a year. If to-day the Army Council decided that the British platoon commander should have the same air support as the German platoon commander, how long would it be before it came into being? Does the House realise that the German platoon commander can "whistle up," so to speak, air support within 10 or 15 minutes, whereas in our case the request goes from platoon to company, from company to battalion, from battalion to brigade, from brigade to division, and he is lucky if air support arrives within two or three hours? By that time the whole position may be fundamentally different.
    It is these things that are causing uneasiness. We still do not seem to realise that by the introduction of the dive-bomber, and close communication between troops and air forces, and between the air and armoured units, the Germans have revolutionised the art of war. We have refused to recognise that revolution. We must recognise it and secure full and perfect co-operation between air and land forces. We must see to it that our Armies are commanded by men who do not make these cardinal blunders. If we blame the politician, we must encourage the soldiers not to accept fatal orders from politicians. I do not believe that they are so encouraged. The country is sick to death of continual reverses, continual defeat, coupled with the failure to exert 100 per cent. of our possible war effort.
    For example, to this very day the country does not know who has the final word in deciding priority in supplies, whether it is Lord Beaverbrook or the Lord President of the Council. Which is it? I ask for a definite answer. Up to this very minute the country does not know how priorities are decided. Before the war, the Treasury was the deciding factor in matters of priority, and the Treasury had this advantage, that the terms on which they decided priority were pounds, shillings and pence, which are easy to assess. But to-day you have to assess your priorities in terms of tonnages

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    and man-hours. I suggest in all seriousness that the Treasury methods should be adopted in assessing priorities and that a staff should be borrowed from the Treasury and made dependent upon the Minister whose duty it is to determine priorities.
    I apologise for the length of my speech and the rather rambling way in which I have delivered it, but I wish to express to the House my firm conviction that the country is uneasy. It is not sick of the Prime Minister. It wants the Prime Minister to go on being Prime Minister, as indeed I do. He is not the greatest Prime Minister since the younger Pitt; he is greater than the younger Pitt. He is our chosen leader, and the country will follow him anywhere. But we want to see him cut out the dead wood, in the War Cabinet, and in the Army, and in the Navy. There is a lot of it. We want to see men in all positions who are aware of what modern war means.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Will the hon. and gallant Member tell us where the dead wood is to be found, and then we shall know?
    Captain Nicholson: I am very tempted to do so, but no names, no pack drill."
    Mr. Griffiths: Let us have it straight from the shoulder.
    Captain Nicholson: It is not for a very junior soldier to say where the military dead wood is to be found. It is not for a Member of Parliament to dictate to a Prime Minister to whom he has just declared his unswerving loyalty exactly who his assistants should or should not be.
    Mr. Griffiths: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that there is some dead wood, then we ought to know where it is.
    Viscountess Astor: You know it too.
    Mr. Griffiths: If you know it, tell us.
    Viscountess Astor: We all know it.
    Captain Nicholson: With all respect to the House and to the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. G. Griffiths), I think that that is a frivolous contribution.
    Mr. Griffiths: Not at all.
    Captain Nicholson: My contribution to this Debate is intended to be serious and
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    to express grave uneasiness on my own part and on the part of my constituents, and of those other electors with whom I come in contact, and I have endeavoured to express it as well as I can.
    Mr. Bellenger: I did not follow entirely the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Farnham (Captain Nicholson) when he laid down as a principle that if generals disagreed with orders given by politicians, they should resign in war-time. If you are to carry that principle into the Army, it will lead to a serious situation. It will lead almost to anarchy in the Army. Perhaps the House will believe me when I say that I really am an old soldier, having fought in two wars in the front line. As an old soldier I can quite understand that it is necessary that permanent Army staff people should have opinions of their own and express them. But obviously they must express them through the proper channel—through the Army channel. The Chief of the Imperial General Staff, on the Army side, listens to those representations and if necessary conveys them to the War Cabinet.
    Having fought in Belgium in this war and the last, I am certain that it was not an entirely political decision that sent us into that country. Belgium has been the historic battleground of Europe for centuries, and I believe that if that country had been properly defended, or if we had had adequate defences on the frontier, we should never have been rushed out of France so quickly as we were. It was due almost to apathy in Army circles, and nobody knows it better than the Secretary of State for War at that tune, the right hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha). There were serious differences, I believe, at that time between the political side and the Army Command as to the defences, and it was purely because of the lack of adequate defences from the Magi-not line to the sea that we lost that battle. Not even the 10 armoured divisions that the Germans were supposed to have launched against the French—not against us—on the North front, or their dive-bombers, could have pushed us out. Not any number of dive-bombers they could send against this country to-day will defeat us in this country, although I recognise only too well that our defences are not all they could be. The hazard of launching 100 per cent. attack against this

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    country would be too great for Hitler to lose, and he could not afford to lose it.
    That is why I disagree with the outline of strategy given to us by the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Lieut. -Colonel Macnamara). I disagree with him that our strategy is right, but what do we know of strategy? Obviously, it is in the hands of the Government and in the hands of the Prime Minister himself, who is head of the Committee of Defence. He knows what it is, and obviously we cannot criticise it. We may have opinions as to a certain part of it, but I do not think we can criticise it in its entirety. What I would prefer to do is to refer to what I would call the tactical mishandling of our troops which occurred in Norway, France and Greece, and now in Crete. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford referred to certain things to which he knows the answer. Everybody who knows anything about the Army knows that young soliders battalions have been sent to guard aerodromes and do guard duties, so destroying their young spirit. Those of us who have seen what the men in France and other campaigns have had to withstand in the way of onslaughts by German dive-bombers, tanks and motorcycle units know that the job of guarding aerodromes is not a job for young soldiers to tackle. We want much more seasoned troops for that, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows.
    There is one cardinal feature that arises from this Cretan battle, and, if I may, I would like to concentrate upon it. It is that undoubtedly the Army must have its own Air Arm. The days have long gone by when we could go into academic discussions as to whether bombers could drop bombs down the funnels of battleships. Those who have taken part in recent warfare know the remarkable strength that air power has given to the German infantry. They do not trouble about bayonets and cold steel. We know the complete cooperation between the German air arm and their ground forces. It makes no difference whether it is in reconnaissance, bombing or dive-bombing, the German air forces are the modern artillery of the German army today. Whereas in the last war we massed guns wheel to wheel to create a barrage, to-day that is obsolete; it is the air arm that is doing military work, and only when the line is likely to
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    become static is it necessary to bring up ground artillery to do its proper work.
    I suggest to the War Office that this lesson has not been thoroughly digested by our General Staff. We are not having a post mortem or an inquest, because that presumes that the body is already dead. I believe the body is still alive; I believe we can win this war, but I do not think we are going the right way to win it at the present moment. I suggest that the War Office should do something other than tell us that there is some Army Co-operational Air Force or some organisation that somehow links our Air Force with the Army. I think every German panzer division has at least one squadron of planes entirely at its own command. On occasions squadrons are put under the command of the divisional commander, just as in the same way heavy artillery is placed in the hands of a divisional general, instead of keeping it in the hands of G.H.Q. We must do the same with our Air Force. I do not think it is of much use discussing why we lost Crete or whether it is such a big disaster. We must concentrate on those features of the battle from which we can draw a lesson if we are to get any results from a military point of view.
    The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Farnham said that we had dead wood in the Government. Of course, everybody knows it; the Lobbies, smoke-rooms and clubs are full of talk about it. Many hon. Members on this side of the House, when they talk about it privately, can put their finger on it, and I suggest that we cannot tolerate this position much longer. We have had for five or six years a sense of frustration. Time and time again the Government have been warned—and by nobody more than the present Prime Minister when he was a critic—of the disaster facing them and facing us. There is no doubt about the eminence of the Prime Minister. We all know we could not replace him at the present time with somebody else who would conduct this war to a successful conclusion. There are few who have such a stout heart or believe in our victory as he does. We do not want to displace the Prime Minister, but we say to him, as we are entitled to say to every general, "Choose your own personal staff, but they are your staff and you are responsible for them, and if they make a mistake, you

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    have to dismiss them; if you allow them to make too many mistakes, we may have to dismiss you." I believe that will arise if there are too many mistakes. Was it Napoleon who said that the most successful general is he who makes the least number of mistakes? He admitted the possibility of generals making mistakes, but he warned his generals that they could not go on being generals for long if they made too many mistakes.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), who opened the Debate with a very sparkling address, referred to the methods used by the Germans in Crete. Those methods were not novel. Crash landings were known long before Crete was invaded. If my right hon. Friend has had access to the military intelligence that was gathered together and issued in the form of staff documents after the Norwegian campaign, he will know that crash landings were made by the Germans on Oslo aerodrome. My criticism is that we have not digested the lessons that ought to have been learned immediately after the Germans invaded Poland. In that campaign the Germans did everything that they have done since. The only difference is that, with their initiative, they have brought these things to a much finer art and a much more successful conclusion. They wanted aeroplanes and tanks to overwhelm the Poles. To-day they do not even want the tanks to overwhelm us. But still the central theory underlying German military tactics is the same. I suggest to the House and to the War Office that they might take a leaf out of the German book. After all, the German army has been a very successful army. Let us, if necessary, if we want success, copy many of its methods.
    A question has been asked as to who was responsible for withdrawing the Air Force from Crete. I notice that the Secretary of State for Air is now present. He was not present when that question was asked. I think he can give us the answer. I would hazard a guess that it was the Air Command that was responsible for withdrawing the Air Force in the same way as when the Air Force was withdrawn from France. Then the Army had no control. At corps headquarters we had, I think, a wing-commander and another staff officer to whom the corps
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    commander looked for guidance in air matters, but at a certain stage in the retreat, possibly at the stage when they could not maintain their aeroplanes in the field, they had gone. There was no question of the corps commander saying, Send out a sortie of aeroplanes on reconnaissance to see what is in front of us" The wing-commander had gone. Why? Because he had received his orders direct from his superior in the Air Command. The corps commander, a lieutenant-general, and even G.H.Q. themselves, had no control. The Air Command was a separate and complete command. I do not know whether the Secretary of State for Air has any views on that matter, but certainly the War Office ought to have very definite views on it. This is not a time when we should fall out over matters of status. The Navy, the Army and the Air Force should be all linked up together. We must have that if we are to get victory.
    I want to refer to one other matter that was mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelmsford. I do not know whether he has been to the front and experienced dive-bombing, but I disagree with him entirely when he speaks about training troops in the noise which there is when there is dive-bombing. I believe it would have quite the reverse effect from that which he suggested if the noise were created in the training. The troops will know all about it when the time comes; there is no need to go half way to meet the trouble. From my experience in France, on the beaches at Dunkirk, where we were dive-bombed par excellence, I believe that the troops were not so much concerned with the dive-bombing so long as they could see our aeroplanes in the sky. Even if they saw only three of our aeroplanes against a host of German aeroplanes, they cheered from their hearts, and carried on. They will carry on; they will have to carry on, just as the civilians have to carry on under bombing night after night. The British Army does not like noise any more than we do, but they will carry on as long as they have weapons either in their hands or in the air above them.
    I say in all seriousness and with a full sense of responsibility that even the morale of the Army may be affected if they are given too many occasions like Crete and Dunkirk, when they curse the

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    Air Force, as they did all along the beaches at Dunkirk. I hope Members of the Government will read a booklet that was published some months ago under the title of "The Diary of a Staff Officer" In that book a responsible staff officer— not an Air staff officer but an Army officer attached to the Air Force—stated that the troops spat on the ground when they heard mention of the Air Force. That was not general, and I never saw it, but I heard some very strong criticism of our lack of air support. Will you be able to maintain the morale of the troops on whom you depend for ultimate victory if you give them bayonets to fight against tanks and Tommy guns, and if you deny them air support? I can well imagine the feelings of the troops in Crete who knew that they were facing slaughter with no possible chance of success. If the German troops had suffered under the same conditions, they would never have hung on for 12 days. These are the lessons which I hope the House and our staffs will learn.
    The Prime Minister and certain other members of the Government have shown their resentment of criticism on more than one occasion. I venture to remind the House that in the Debate on Norway I was the only Labour Member who said that Labour ought to take its share of responsibility in the Government. There may have been many of my colleagues who felt the same, but they did not say so. I have always taken a more or less independent attitude, although in complete loyalty to my party. If ever there were a time when loyalty to my party would affect the independence of my judgment and thought, I should resign from the party. I have not done so. I have been in complete agreement with members of my party going into the Government, but I say—and I believe this is in the minds of other hon. Members—that not all the members either of my own party or of the party which the Prime Minister leads are carrying on the war as they ask the country and the common people to carry on the war. We cannot ask the country to put its whole back into the war unless it is led by men. and women who put their backs into the war, too.
    Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: More than once during this Debate the situation which we face to-day
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    has been described as grave. I do not know that I would have used that expression myself, but this is certainly a most important period in the conduct of the war. I think the House was entitled to this Debate, however it may have been arranged, and I think it is right that it should have been held in public. There is, so far as I know, no weakening on the part of the public in their support of the Government or in their determination to achieve victory. The Government have every reason to be satisfied with the attitude which the House of Commons has taken up in these last 18 months. The position of any Member speaking in public on the war situation must be one of difficulty, and it is well that that should be recognised both inside and outside this House. But, as I say, there is no weakening in the war effort, and there is no slackening in the country's determination, and certainly, so far as I have seen, the country does not desire to withdraw any of that support which the Prime Minister so justly has secured from all classes of the people. Yet it would be wrong to think that there is no criticism of the conduct of the war, and that strong views are not both held and expressed. As a result of recent events there are grave doubts held throughout the country as to whether, even now, the necessity for complete co-operation between the land, sea and air forces of this country has been fully appreciated. To-day the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), and some other speakers who preceded him, have struck a very grave note. I do not pretend to be able to say how much lack of co-operation really exists, but I can say that as a result of recent events there are grave doubts in the country as to whether that co-operation is really 100 per cent.
    My hon. Friend below me spoke of command. I want to put a point to the Prime Minister about which I think the country is anxious. This is a completely new kind of war, and everyone knows it. We have no previous experience of war being fought simultaneously in the air, at sea and on land. At the present moment the fight is in the Near East—I dislike the term "Middle East," because that part of the world never has been the Middle East. We have a Commander-in-Chief there, and I do not suggest for one moment that he has not supreme powers. However, I should like to ask, in the event of its being necessary in his view—

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    I give this merely as an example—to hold Crete at the time when we were engaged on that campaign, and the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force in the Near East said he could not send fighters to Crete because it was impossible to do so as we had no aerodromes, and that it was therefore suicide to send these men to Crete, whether the Commander-in-Chief in the Near East could, in those circumstances, say, "I deeply regret that I have to overrule you, because we must have these fighters, even if these men have to be sacrificed" Is there a supreme command, not on paper, but in reality? We know that in so many other walks of life where there are various men in charge of great works or great branches of work, all the time there must be someone in supreme command who can in the end say, "I must overrule you. I have listened to all you have had to say, and although I know this is your branch, I am afraid I must overrule you. I do not want to do it, but it must be done."
    The country is anxious as to whether there is not divided control, which may be leading to some of the difficulties we have had in the past. It would be foolish to say, or to suggest, that the bulk of the people of this country think in these terms. They do not. The bulk of the people of this country want an answer to that question, and one other, which may be a very simple question to answer, but which is a question the Government must answer to-day. We were told that it was impossible to keep fighter aeroplanes— and only fighter aeroplanes can control the bombers; indeed, they are the only means of opposing the bombers—in Crete because the aerodromes were not there. Why were they not there? We were there for seven months. Can any of us believe that if the Germans are there for seven months, they will not have all the aerodromes they want, together with the ground staffs and everything else? I do not say this question cannot be answered, but I think it is right that the Prime Minister should know that that is the main question which is being asked to-day. I said a moment ago that however much the average citizen is disturbed —and he is disturbed at the present situation—he feels that he is without the information necessary to enable him to criticise with knowledge and judgment.
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    He is much more inclined to-day to criticise in an altogether different way. After all, what does he know about strategy, and what can he know? Rightly, he is not given the information upon which he can form any judgment, and I am not suggesting for one moment that he should have it. The Prime Minister and those associated with him have the trust of the country, and great matters of policy and strategy must be left to them. It is not on these lines that the country is worried. What the country is worried about is that the Government, after 21 months of war, have not yet brought the full capacity of the country, which has been so willingly offered, into the war, and that it has taken too long to harness the nation's resources so as to secure effective work and production.
    I think it is an indication, a very definite indication, of the complete unanimity of the people in support of the war that there has not been a demand for more information. We do not know, for example, what numbers of men the Government consider essential for the Army, or the respective Air Force strengths of this country and the enemy. They do not know what further naval and mercantile shipping construction is necessary to secure our supplies. But what the country does know is that for munitions of war, aeroplanes, and ships there is at this moment no limit to what we require, and that the full effort of the country and of every man and woman in it is not being exercised to secure that result. In a recent speech in this House, I made the statement that if I had to guess what was the figure of efficiency of our effort to-day, I would not put it higher than 75 per cent, of the full possibilities of the nation. I should like to be able to change that figure every time I speak, but I am bound to tell the House that I do not think I can put it any higher to-day. There are factories in this country' in which we have men standing idle because they have not got all the supplies which are required. There are factories and yards which are short of labour. There are plants in which workers are doing their full day's work, and others in which people are arriving late, leaving before time and slacking. I do not think it is of any use not facing the facts as they are. In some cases there are a few men upsetting

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    others and affecting the whole tone of the undertaking, and the Government are taking no prompt and definite action to put these matters right.
    The Government have had these powers for 21 months, or whatever the exact number may be. The Restriction of Engagement Order is by no means working well. In fact, in many cases it is doing more harm than good as at present operated. These are very grave statements, but I make them deliberately because I see too clearly what has happened. The managements of some of the factories working for the Government, some of them Government factories, even the Ordnance factory, have no power whatever to deal with these cases. They are only a very few. The bulk of the people are working wonderfully, but there are a few who will always need some form of compulsion and to whom no form of propaganda will appeal. [Interruption.] The management, in the bulk of these cases, is helpless. Under this very Restriction of Engagement Order the position is that, if you discharge a man, you are very often giving him the very thing that he really wants. When he is discharged he very likely gets more pay somewhere else. Possibly the only thing that you can do in these cases is to refuse to discharge him.
    Mr. Gallacher: You put all the blame on the workers.
    Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: That carries you nowhere, and I am not putting all the blame on the workers. I say it is a very small number, but they are doing immense harm. Not one of them has the support of a trade union. While you have the good will of an enormous percentage of the people, there are some who are working against the national effort, and they must be dealt with.
    Mr. J. J. Davidson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that repeatedly complaints have been made by trade union organisations and shop stewards with regard to managerial inefficiency and that no steps have been taken to support these people in their protests?
    Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: I have not any doubt about it, but that cannot apply in some of the cases of which I am speaking, where they are Government factories.
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    That Order, which was so well meant, and which in many cases works well, does not always work, and something will have to be done to put the matter right. Why should not the management have power— the management in this case very likely a Government Department—to suggest that these men be de-reserved and sent back to the Army? There would, of course, have to be a right of appeal, but that threat alone would get rid of half the difficulty, and there is no doubt that it could be put into operation. There are other difficult questions, such as fatigue and housing, all of which require the urgent attention of the Government. A good deal of the absenteeism is not deliberate but is due to fatigue, and in some cases to want of proper housing. These matters are being attended to by the Government, but there are too many authorities, and there is too much red tape. They will have to be gone into more quickly if we are to get the full 100 per cent. effort that we require.
    There are other matters which I am sure the Government have in mind. We are all, when we are not discussing Crete, thinking of the Battle of the Atlantic. We are all looking to the United States for great help in that part of the struggle, and we shall not look in vain, but it would be foolish to believe that her help, through new ship construction, will immediately give us a large flow of new tonnage. In the next stage of the war our own ships and our construction are the vital factors. In the protection of our existing Mercantile fleet the Government must be well aware of the grave doubts that exist in shipping circles at present. It would be unwise for them to think that, although the deciding voice must rightly be that of the Navy, they can afford to ignore the lifelong knowledge of those who have built up and operated our Mercantile Marine. There is dissatisfaction with the convoy system and it would be well for the Government to get as much expert opinion behind them in that matter as possible. There are all kinds of questions which are giving the country trouble. They are not causing anxiety, but they are small things which the Government should put right. The country is solidly behind the Government, but it is anxious and worried, not as to final victory, but as to the immediate steps in the campaign, and particularly as to whether we have learnt

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    from our mistakes in the past. I ask the Government to give the country every bit of information they can. Let them conceal nothing of the risks or of our resources. The country can take it, whatever it is. On the other hand, do not press trifling successes too far or gloss over grave dangers, if such there be. Let them use their powers drastically, and, if they will do that, and let the country know what the problem really is, what the dangers are and what the chances are, they will receive from the country in return that complete support which will assure victory to our arms.
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: I wish to refer to one special aspect of the situation which has arisen in consequence of the fighting in Crete, and I want to talk about sea power. One constantly hears and reads that for some reason or another sea power has lost its power. It is not a fact. If it was not for sea power, there would be only one side in the Mediterranean at present, there would not be a man, a gun, a tank, an aeroplane or a vehicle. There would be nothing there at all. There would be no Army. No one would have got to Crete, and no one would have got out of Crete, if it had not been for sea power. But what happened? Sea power has had its wings clipped. In fact, its wings have practically been removed by asking the Navy to carry out work for which it was never designed. It never was and never will be the function of sea power to protect the Army while it is on land, and in the narrow waters between Crete and Greece the Navy has been carrying out work for which it never was designed. The losses that were recounted in the nine o'clock news last night and previously are almost irreplaceable—destroyers, cruisers and so on. They were only there because they could get there and because they had never in the past, and never will, let down the British Army. That is a very sad state of affairs. Reference has been made to our failure, not only in Greece but in Crete, to use the aerodromes, and that has resulted in what are very nearly irreplaceable losses to the Fleet, making more and more difficulties for our exercise of sea power in other parts of the war area, more particularly in the Western approaches. To what is this due? The failure, as has been stressed over and
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    over again in this Debate, to secure the proper co-ordination and the proper use of the Air Force. People say that the Navy has its Fleet Air Arm which can do the work. You may have as many aircraft carriers as you like, but they are extremely vulnerable craft and are not designed for working close in shore for the protection of the Army. They have-done magnificent work, as in the case of the "Bismarck," and they will do so again, but they must have plenty of sea room.
    That brings me to the point that the Air Force, magnificent as it is, has not played the part we were justified in thinking it would play. The shortage of aircraft and the handicaps and complications of design have led to a very difficult position at the present time so far as the Army and Navy are concerned. There is more to it than that. The House has been told for years by people who have technical knowledge that unless the Army and the Navy had complete and absolute control of the aircraft which are working with them, the situation we see to-day would most certainly arise. It has arisen and will continue until something is done to secure proper co-ordination and to put the Air Force, working with the Army, under the complete control of the Army, and the Air Force working with the Fleet under the complete control of the Fleet.
    At the present time there is a battle area in the Western approaches which stretches 3,000 miles from North to South and certainly from 1,000 to 1,500 miles from East to West. The Fleet is doing its utmost in face of grave difficulties in the area, but what is the situation? It has a small Fleet Air Arm which it has been doing its utmost to build up during the last two years or so, but in that area is working a perfectly separate Command —the Coastal Command—and it is only by perfect working between the Commander-in Chief of the Western approaches and the Commander-in-Chief, Coastal Command, that we are able to get anything like co-ordination. A friend to whom I said recently, "I hope you are getting on all right in the Western approaches," replied, "I cannot speak too highly of the officer in command of the Coastal Command." My answer to that was that it was a very fortunate state of affairs, but what was going to happen if by chance he should be succeeded by somebody with whom it was not easy to

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    work? My friend said that the situation would then be very difficult.
    The fact that the Catalina flying boat the other day was largely if not entirely instrumental in ultimately finding out where the "Bismarck" was was a very fortunate circumstance. As far as I know, the officer who was in command of that Catalina flying boat was not under the command of the naval officer who was looking for the "Bismarck." That cannot be right. He was working over the sea; he was acting as a flying man-of-war, so to speak, a scout. There can be no question about the system being wrong, but to put the blame upon the Air Force would be wrong. The blame lies on the House of Commons. There has been a sort of spirit of compromise and a hope that the thing would work when the strain came. Now we see that it is not working. So far as the Army is concerned, I would like to quote what I wrote down the other day after a discusion I had with a military officer. He was complaining of the difficulties in Crete and remarked that he had supposed that tanks and land defences would have sufficed to prevent the parachutists from taking control of the aerodromes. He was very upset about the whole affair. I asked him what was his opinion in this matter and what had been his experience. He said, and I wrote down:
    "My experience extends to having served in Egypt, Palestine, France, Dunkirk and many places in the British Isles, both as a regimental officer at brigade headquarters and divisional headquarters. Co-operation between the air and ground is virtually non-existent in the Army at present. Even the elements of this co-operation, which is absolutely essential, would appear to be a closely guarded secret. I have seen one air liaison officer throughout the whole of the training exercises in which I have taken part, and he knew nothing of our organisation."
    I am not prepared to say that that is strictly true in every detail, but it was told to me quietly and thoughtfully. Even if there is a little truth in it, it shows a very grave state of affairs.
    I attended a conference recently when the Regional Commissioner talked to us Members of Parliament, and I noticed a military officer in the room. I asked him a number of questions. I asked him what connection and what co-operation he had with the Air Force. He said, "I am a military staff officer; there is no Air Force officer attached to this region so
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    far as I know." That is one more indication of this failure to effect complete cooperation. Finally, I would say that in the Near East we have what is called a military Commander-in-Chief, but he is not that in the full sense of the term, because he has to apply on his own element—the land—to another Ministry and another military force to ask for coordination and co-operation. I maintain with the utmost positiveness that until we place our military forces on land under one Commander-in-Chief, \our sea forces under another, with all the weapons and vessels that they can use for the promotion of victory under their own respective individual and unassailable command the difficulties we have to-day will continue. In what I have said I have only tried to impress the House with the fact that if that particular aspect of things can be put right, I do not see the slightest reason why there should be a repetition of what has happened in Crete.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): I do not think anyone, however Ministerially-minded, could possibly complain of the tone, temper and matter of this Debate. The kind of criticism we have had to-day, some of it very searching, is the kind of criticism that the Government not only accept but welcome. All the same, the House will, permit me perhaps to point out that the way in which this Debate came about was calculated to give one the feeling of a challenge to the security of the Administration, and, from the point of view of the advantage to the country, that raises serious considerations. There were all kinds of paragraphs and reports which appeared in the papers about the grave uneasiness and unrest, stating that a Debate on Crete must take place. The parties were demanding it, the Labour party, the Liberal party and members of the Conservative party were demanding it, and there must be a full accounting, an inquest held, and so forth. That being so, one is bound to take a serious view because of the interests which are confided into our care.
    I think that it would be a mistake if the House got into the habit of calling for explanations on the varying episodes of this dangerous and widespread struggle and asking for an account to be given of why any action was lost or any part of the front was beaten in. In the first

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    place, no full explanations can possibly be given without revealing valuable information to the enemy, information not only about a particular operation which is over, but about the general position and also of the processes of thought which are followed, such as they may be, by our war direction and our high command". There is always a danger that a Minister in my position, in seeking to vindicate the course we have pursued, should inadvertently say something which may supply the enemy with some essential, with some seemingly innocent fact, about which the enemy is in doubt, and thus enable the enemy to construct a comprehensive and accurate picture of our state of mind and the way in which we are looking at things. The heads of the Dictator Governments are not under any similar pressure to explain or excuse any ill-success that may befall them. Far be it from me to compare myself or the office I hold or the functions I discharge with those of these pretentious and formidable potentates. I am only the servant of the Crown and Parliament and am always at the disposal of the House of Commons, where I have lived my life.
    Still the House, and I think I may say also the country, have placed very considerable responsibilities upon me, and I am sure they would not wish any servant they have entrusted with such duties to be at a disadvantage against our antagonists. I have not heard, for instance, that Herr Hitler had to attend the Reichstag and tell them why he sent the "Bismarck" on her disastrous cruise, when by waiting for a few weeks, and choosing his opportunity, when perhaps our capital ships were dispersed on convoy duty, she might have gone out accompanied by the "Tirpitz," another 45,000-ton ship, and offered a general sea battle. Neither have I heard any very convincing statement by Signor Mussolini of the reasons why the greater part of his African Empire has been conquered and more than 200,000 of his soldiers are prisoners in our hands.
    I must say, quite frankly, to the House that I should feel myself under a needless disadvantage if it were understood that I should be obliged, in public Debate, to give an account, possibly a controversial account, of our operations irrespective of whether the times were suitable or not.
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    It would, for instance, have been a nuisance if Parliament had demanded a Debate on the loss of the "Hood" before we had been in a position to explain what measures we had taken to secure the destruction of the "Bismarck." I always take—and I am sure that what I say will be accepted—very great pains to serve the House, and on all occasions to associate the House in the fullest possible manner with the conduct of the war, but I think it would be better, and I submit it to the House, if in the future I were permitted on behalf of His Majesty's Government to choose the occasions for making statements about the war, which I am most anxious to do
    There is another general reason why I should have deprecated a Debate upon the Battle of Crete. It is only one part of the very important and complicated campaign which is being fought in the Middle East, and to select one particular sector of our widely extended front for Parliamentary Debate is a partial, lopsided and misleading method of examining the conduct of the war. A vast scene can only be surveyed as a whole, and it ought not to be exposed and debated piecemeal, especially at a time when operations which are all related to one another are wholly incomplete. Into the general survey of the war come all sorts of considerations about the gain and loss of time and its effect upon the future. There also comes into the picture the entire distribution of our available resources to meet the many calls that are made upon them. For instance, my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir J: Wardlaw-Milne), who has just spoken, asked why it was that when we had Crete in our possession for more than six months we had wasted all that time for constructing numerous airfields and placing them in the highest state of defence, and he reminded us how very efficiently the Germans would have done a work like that if Crete had fallen into their hands. Everyone will, I dare say, admit that it would have been a mistake to make a great number of airfields in Crete unless we could find the anti-aircraft guns, both of high and low ceiling, and the aircraft to defend those airfields, for that would simply have facilitated the descent of the enemy's air-borne troops upon the island.
    Why then, first of all, I must ask, were enough guns not provided for the two

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    serviceable airfields which existed in Crete? To answer that question one would have to consider how many guns we have and whether we could afford to spare them for that purpose. That leads us to a wider sphere. All this time, the Battle of the Atlantic has been going on, and a very great number of the guns which might have usefully been deployed in Crete have been, and are, being mounted in the merchant vessels to beat off the attacks of the Fokke Wulf and Heinkel aircraft, whose depredations have been notably lessened thereby.
    Again, we must consider, on the subject of these guns, whether our airfields at home, our air factories or the ports and cities in our Islands, which are under heavy and dangerous attack, should have been further denuded or stinted of guns, in the last six or seven months, for the sake of the war in the Middle East. Further, it must be remembered—I did not notice that this was mentioned—that everything we send out to the Middle East is out of action for the best part of three months, as it has to go round the Cape. We have run very great risks and faced very serious maulings in this Island, in order to sustain the war in the Mediterranean, and no one, I venture to submit, can be a judge of whether we should have run more risks or exposed ourselves to heavier punishment at home, for the sake of fortifying and multiplying the Cretan airfields, without having full and intimate knowledge of all our resources and making a complete survey of the various claims upon them.
    We did, however, from the moment that the Greek Government invited us into Crete, take steps to defend the anchorage of Suda Bay, as an important naval base, to develop the aerodrome nearby and to provide the base and the aerodrome with the largest quantity of high and low ceiling guns which we thought it fit to divert from other strategic points in the Mediterranean. We provided, in fact, a deterrent to the enemy attack sufficient to require a major effort on his part; but, of course, there are a great many islands and strategic points in the seas, and to attempt to be safe everywhere is to make sure of being strong nowhere.
    Therefore, it may well be that if the House were able to go into detail into these matters, which I am afraid is not possible, hon. Members would feel that a
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    reasonable and right disposition of our Forces was made; but without going into the facts and figures, which I am sure no one would wish me to do, even in Secret Session, let alone in Public Session, it is quite impossible for the House, or even for the newspapers, to arrive at a justly proportioned and level judgment on this affair. There is, however, this much that I should like to say: A man must be a perfect fool who thinks that we have large quantities of anti-aircraft guns and aircraft lying about unused at the present time. I will speak about aircraft in a moment, but, so far as anti-aircraft guns are concerned, large and expanding as is our present production, every single gun is in action at some necessary point or other, and all future production for many months ahead is eagerly competed for by rival claimants with, very often, massive cases behind each one of them.
    This goes back a long way, but four years ago, in March, 1937, I mentioned to the House that the Germans had already got 1,500 mobile anti-aircraft guns—mobile and formed in batteries—in addition to the whole of their static artillery of anti-aircraft defence. Since then they have been making them at a great rate, and they have also conquered more than all they want from the many countries they have overthrown, so that our position is very different from that. The right hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) has made to-day a very cogent and moderate, well-informed and thoughtful contribution to the Debate, but he used a different mood and tone in a speech which he recently delivered in the country, and that at any rate makes it necessary for me to say that the state in which our Army was left when the right hon. Gentleman had ended his two years and seven months' tenure of the War Office, during the greater part of which he was also responsible for production and supply, was lamentable. We were short of every essential supply, but most particularly of those modern weapons, those special classes of weapons, the anti-aircraft gun, the anti-tank gun and the tank itself, which have proved themselves the vital necessities of modern war, a fact which he is now prepared to suggest we are so purblind and out-dated as not to be able to comprehend.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman, for the purposes

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    of Debate, should make a statement such as he has made, that I left the Army in a lamentable condition. It is quite out of accord with what he himself said after the retreat from Dunkirk, that we had lost the finest lot of equipment that had ever left these shores, and that the Army had been fully equipped in almost every particular. The French Ambassador stated that we had fully discharged our obligations to the French. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will be good enough to recall that up till very recently before the war the whole House and indeed the country were opposed to the creation of a Continental Army, which nevertheless I proceeded to try and create. I do not seek to be judged by my achievements, but by what I tried to do, and my right hon. Friend will realise that my obstacles were greater than his to-day.
    The Prime Minister: I thought that I had misquoted my right hon. Friend in some way, but it appears he wished to continue the argument. I am dealing not with the particular equipment of the troops who went to France, who naturally drained the rest of our Forces, but the fact remains that the equipment of our Army at that time, and at the outbreak of war, was of the most meagre and deficient character, and that the deficiencies made themselves most marked—and still make themselves most marked—in the very type of weapons for which there is the greatest possible demand. I could give facts and figures upon this point if we were in private which would, I think, leave no dispute upon the subject. I am not throwing all the blame for this upon my right hon. Friend at all—certainly not —but I think it is only fair, when he himself comes forward and sets himself up as an arbiter and judge, and speaks so scornfully of the efforts of some others who have inherited his dismal legacy, I think when he speaks in this way—he has a great responsibility in the matter—it is only fair to point out to him that he is one of the last people in this country entitled to take that line.
    Mr. Granville: No recriminations.
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentle-man said something about no recriminations, but extremely violent and hostile speeches have been spread about, doing a
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    great deal of harm, and about which I have received information from different countries and capitals, showing the uncertainty and disturbance which are caused by them, and certainly if we are attacked we shall counter-attack.
    Mr. Granville: We are dealing with the future, not with the past.
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) had better return to his lucubrations in constitutional experiment, which exercise his mind so much at present. So much for the difficulty in which we stand in the matter of the anti-aircraft guns. The output is at last rapidly expanding, but the fact remains that our outfits are incomparably inferior in numbers to those possessed by the Germans, and every claim has to be weighed against every other claim. Another general question which may fairly be asked is, "Why have we not got much stronger and much larger air forces in the Middle East?" I can only say this: From the moment when the Battle of Britain was decided in our favour, in September and October of last year, by the victories of our fighters, we have been ceaselessly sending aircraft as fast as possible to the Middle East, by every route and by every method. During the present year, as our strength in the air has grown, we have not been hampered in this matter, as we were in the case of the antiaircraft guns, by lack of aircraft. The problem has been to send them to the Eastern theatre of war.
    Anyone can see how great are the Germans' advantages, and how easy it is for the Germans to move their Air Force from one side of Europe to another. They can fly along a line of permanent airfields. Wherever they need to alight and refuel, there are permanent airfields in the highest state of efficiency, and, as for the services and personnel and all the stores which go with them—without which the squadrons are quite useless—these can go by the grand continental expresses along the main railway lines of Europe. One has only to compare this process with the sending of aircraft packed in crates, then put on ships and sent on the great ocean spaces until they reach the Cape of Good Hope, then taken to Egypt, set up again, trued up and put in the air when they arrive, to see that the Germans can do in days what takes us weeks, or even more.

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    This reflection, I say, has its bearing upon the possibility of a German movement back from the East to the West, which certainly could be executed very swiftly if they were to resolve upon an assault upon this country. I can give an assurance to the House that we have done, are doing, and will do, our utmost to build up the largest possible Air Force in the Middle East; and it is not aircraft, but solely transportation, which is—
    Mr. Shinwell: That is the whole trouble.
    The Prime Minister: Not transportation in the sense of shipping tonnage, but in the sense of the time that it takes to transfer under the conditions of the present war. It is not aircraft, but transportation, which is the limiting factor at this end. I have dealt with anti-aircraft guns; I have dealt with aircraft. As to the disposition of our Air Force in the Middle East, it is primarily a matter for the Commanders-in-Chief in the Middle East, although His Majesty's Government share to the full their responsibility for whatever is done. I might refer again to what was said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) about the importance of coordination between the Services. It is carried to a very high pitch. The Chief Air Officer lives in the same house in Cairo as the Commander-in-Chief. They are there side by side. The Naval Commander-in-Chief has to be at sea very often. He has to be at Alexandria. But the very closest association exists between these branches. The idea that any one of these problems would be studied by one of these commanders only, without the closest association with the other two is quite an illusory idea, and I can really assure my hon. Friend on that point.
    Major Milner: Who has the final say?
    The Prime Minister: It is not so much a question of the final say. No disagreement that I know of has arisen. Obviously, the Army is the main factor in that business, and the Fleet is preserving the security of the Army on the seas, and preserving the command of the seas, and the Air is assisting the Army and the Fleet in all their functions. But in the event of any differences, they can be settled in a few hours by reference here. These Commanders-in-Chief have to
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    settle it among themselves, although we share to the full responsibility for whatever is done. It must not be forgotten that apart from the effort we made in Greece, which was very costly in aircraft, the situation in Iraq, in Palestine, and potentially in Syria, as well as the winding-up of the Abyssinian story, all made very heavy demands upon our aircraft, and the situation in the Western Desert had also to be considered. Before any rational judgment could be formed upon the disposition of our Air Force and the consequent failure to supply an adequate Air Force for Crete, it would be necessary, as in the case of the anti-aircraft guns, to know not only what are our whole resources, but also what is the situation in these other theatres, which were all, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) pointed out, all intimately interrelated, and it is no use trying to judge these matters without full knowledge, and that full knowledge obviously cannot be made public, and ought not to be spread outside the narrowest circle compatible with the execution of operations.
    I come to the next stage of my argument, because I am offering the House an argument, if they will bear with me as I unfold it. I have shown them the foundations upon which we started, and I now go a step forward. In March we decided to go to the aid of Greece in accordance with our Treaty obligations. This, of course, exposed us to the danger of being attacked in the Western Desert, and also to defeat by overwhelming numbers in Greece unless Yugoslavia played her part or unless the Greek Army could be extricated to hold some narrower line than that actually chosen. If Greece was overrun by the enemy, it seemed probable that Crete would be the next object of attack. The enemy, with his vast local superiority in air power, was able to drive our aircraft from the airfields of Greece, and adding this to his enormously superior anti-aircraft batteries, he was able to make those airfields rapidly available for his own use. Moreover, as the season was advancing, many more airfields became available to him as the weather improved and dried them up. It was evident, therefore, that the attack upon Crete, if it were made, would be primarily an air-borne attack, for which, again, a vastly superior hostile air force would be available.

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    The question then arose as to whether we should try to defend Crete or yield it without a fight. No one who bears any responsibility for the decision to defend Crete was ignorant of the fact that conditions permitted of only the most meagre British air support to be provided for our troops in the island or for our Fleet operating round the island. It was not a fact that dawned upon the military and other authorities after the decision had been taken; it was the foundation of a difficult and harsh choice, as I shall show. The choice was: Should Crete be defended without effective air support or should the Germans be permitted to occupy it without opposition? There are some, I see, who say that we should never fight without superior or at least ample air support and ask when will this lesson be learned? But suppose you cannot have it? The questions which have to be settled are not always questions between what is good and bad; very often it is a choice between two very terrible alternatives. Must you, if you cannot have this essential and desirable air support, yield important key points, one after another?
    There are others who have said to me, and I have seen it in the newspapers, that you should defend no place that you cannot be sure you can hold. Then, one must ask, can one ever be sure how the battle will develop before it has ever been fought? If this principle of not defending any place you cannot be sure of holding were adopted, would not the enemy be able to make an unlimited number of valuable conquests without any fighting at all? Where would you make a stand and engage them with resolution? The further question arises as to what would happen if you allowed the enemy to advance and overrun, without cost to himself, the most precious and valuable strategic points? Suppose we had never gone to Greece and had never attempted to defend Crete? Where would the Germans be now? Suppose we had simply resigned territory and strategic islands to them without a fight? Might they not, at this early stage of the campaign in 1941, already be masters of Syria and Iraq and preparing themselves for an advnce into Persia?
    The Germans in this war have gained many victories. They have easily over-
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    run great countries and beaten down strong Powers with little resistance offered to them. It is not only a question of the time that is gained by fighting strongly, even if at a disadvantage, for important points. There is also this vitally important principle of stubborn resistance to the will of the enemy. I merely throw out these considerations to the House in order that they may see that there are some arguments which deserve to be considered before you can adopt the rule that you have to have a certainty of winning at any point and that if you have not got it beforehand you must clear out. The whole history of war shows the fatal absurdity of such a doctrine. Again and again, it has been proved that fierce and stubborn resistance, even against heavy odds and under exceptional conditions of local disadvantage, is an essential element in victory. At any rate, the decision was taken to hold Crete. The decision to fight for Crete was taken with the full knowledge that air support would be at a minimum, as anyone can see—apart from the question of whether you have adequate supplies or not—who measures the distances from our airfields in Egypt and compares them with the distances from enemy airfields in Greece and who acquaints himself with the radius of action of dive-bombers and aircraft.
    Of course, I take the fullest personal responsibility for that decision, but the Chiefs of Staff, the Defence Committee and General Wavell, the Commander-in-Chief, all in turn and in their various situations not only thought that Crete ought to be defended in the circumstances, which were fully before them, but that, in spite of the lack of air support, we had a good chance of winning the battle. No one had any illusions about the scale of the enemy air-borne attack. We knew it would be gigantic and intense. The reconnaissances over the Greek aerodrames showed the enormous mass of aircraft which were gathering there—many hundreds and it turned out that the enemy was prepared to pay an almost unlimited price for this conquest, and his resources when concentrated upon any particular point may often be overwhelming at that point.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport referred to the broadcasts which were given by the spokesman of the War Office, Major-General Collins, and by

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    the spokesman of the Air Ministry, Air-Commodore Goddard. I take no responsibility for those statements. I take no responsibility for those or any others that may be made. It is very convenient to bring them up in the course of Debate, but the officers who give these broadcasts are not acquainted with the control of affairs and with what is decided or thought or felt in the Chiefs of Staff Committee or the Defence Committee. How can they be? One does not spread things about in that way.
    Mr. Bellenger: Stop the broadcasts.
    The Prime Minister: I would have liked very much to have stopped them, and in some cases I have reduced them in number. I think it is a very risky thing to ask a professional officer, naval, military or air, to give a weekly expatiation on the war when, in the nature of things, although he may be very accomplished in his profession, he cannot know and ought not to know the facts as they are understood at the secret meetings.
    Mr. G. Griffiths: Everybody thinks he speaks for the Government.
    The Prime Minister: I am very glad to see the feeling in the House on the subject, because, on the other side, one is appealed to ceaselessly to give more information, to make the war more interesting to the people, and to tell them more about what is going on. But it is not possible for the head of the Government or even for the Chiefs of Staff to vet—to use a slang term—beforehand these detailed weekly statements which are made. I think the matter must certainly be reconsidered. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] As I have said, no one had any illusions about the tremendous scale of the air-borne attack, the greatest ever delivered in the world, or thought that we should resist it without any but the most restricted air support on our side. That is the fact. It is not a nice case, but it is the fact. Let us look at the anatomy of this battle of Crete which was undertaken in those bleak circumstances. We hoped that the 25,000 to 30,000 good troops—I am making it a little vague—with artillery and a proportion of tanks, aided by the Greek forces, would be able to destroy the parachute and glider landings of the enemy and prevent him from using the airfields or the harbours.
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    Our Army was to destroy the air-borne attacks, while the Navy held off or destroyed the sea-borne attacks. But there was a time limit. The action of the Navy in maintaining the Northern sea guard without adequate air defence was bound to be very costly. My hon. Friend has pointed out how serious were those losses. We could only stand a certain proportion of naval losses before the Northern sea guard of the Fleet would have to be withdrawn. If meanwhile the Army could succeed in biting off the head of the whole terrific apparatus of the airborne invasion before the naval time limit, or loss limit, was reached, then the enemy would have to begin all over again, and, having regard to the scale of the operation, the enormous, unprecedented scale of the operation, and the losses he would have to incur, he might well for the time being have at least broken it off—at any rate, there would have been a long delay before he could have mounted it again. That was the basis on which the decision was taken.
    I wonder what would have been said by our critics if we had given up the island of Crete without firing a shot. We should have been told that this pusillanimous flight had surrendered to the enemy the key of the Eastern Mediterranean, that our communications with Malta and our power to interrupt the enemy's communications with Libya were grievously endangered. There is only too much truth in all that, although perhaps it will not in the end turn out so badly. Crete was an extremely important salient in our line of defence. It was like Fort Douaumont at Verdun, in 1916; it was like Kemmel Hill, in 1918. These were taken by the Germans, but in each case the Germans lost the battle and also the campaign, and in the end they lost the war. But can you be sure the same result would have been achieved if the Allies had not fought for Douaumont, and had not fought for Kemmel Hill? What would they have fought for if they had not fought for them? These battles can only be judged in their relation to the campaign as a whole.
    I have been asked a lot of questions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Keighley put them very clearly and precisely about the actual conduct of the battle in Crete. For instance, why were the Cretan airfields not mined beforehand? Or again, why were they not

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    commanded by long-range gunfire, or why were not more tanks allotted to their defences? There are many other questions like that. I can give answers to these questions, but I do not propose to discuss tactics here, because I am sure it is quite impossible for us to fight battles in detail, either beforehand or afterwards, from Whitehall or from the House of Commons. His Majesty's Government in their responsibility to Parliament choose the best generals they can find, set before them the broad strategic objects of the campaign, offer them any advice or counsel that may seem fitting, ask searching questions which are very necessary in respect of particular plans and proposals, and then they support them to the best of their power in men and munitions, and also, so long as they retain their confidence, they support them with loyal comradeship in failure or success.
    It is impossible to go into tactical details, and I never remember in the last war, in those great battles which cost something like 40,000, 50,000 or 70,000 men—I am talking of battles of a single day—in which sometimes there were very grave errors made, that they were often made the subject of the arraignment of the Government in the House of Commons. It is only where great strategic issues of policy come that it is fitting for us here to endeavour to form a final opinion. Defeat is bitter. There is no use in trying to explain defeat. People do not like defeat, and they do not like the explanations, however elaborate or plausible, which are given them. For defeat there is only one answer. The only answer to defeat is victory. If a Government in time of war gives the impression that it cannot in the long run procure victory, who cares for its explanations? It ought to go — that is to say, if you are quite sure you can find another which can do better. However, it must be remembered that no Government can conduct a war unless it stands on a solid, stable foundation, and knows it stands on that foundation and, like a great ship, can win through a period of storms into clearer weather. Unless there is a strong impression of solidarity and strength in a Government in time of war, that Government cannot give the support which is necessary to the fighting men and their commanders in the difficult periods, in the disheartening and dis-
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    appointing periods. If the Government has always to be looking over its shoulder to see whether it is going to be stabbed in the back or not, it cannot possibly keep its eye on the enemy.
    There is another point of some difficulty which presents itself to me whenever I am asked to make a statement to the House. Ought I to encourage good hopes of the successful outcome of particular operations, or ought I to prepare the public for serious disappointments? From the purely British standpoint, there is no doubt that the second of these courses is to be preferred, and this is the course that I have usually followed. It is the course which, no doubt, would commend itself to my noble Friend. He has been urging us to look on the gloomy side of things— a kind of inverted Couéism. When you get up in the morning you say to yourself, "We can easily lose this war in the next four months," and you say it with great emphasis and go on your daily task invigorated. I must point out to my noble Friend, and to the House generally, that the British nation is unique in this respect. They are the only people who like to be told how bad things are, who like to be told the worst, and like to be told that they are very likely to get much worse in the future and must prepare themselves for further reverses. But when you go to other countries—oddly enough I saw a message from the authorities who are most concerned with our Arab problem at present, urging that we should be careful not to indulge in too gloomy forecasts. The Arabs do not understand the British character of meeting trouble long before it comes, and they think it is much better to go on putting a bold face on things and then meet the disaster when it arrives. Any statements of a pessimistic character which are used here are calculated to discourage our friends and to spread alarm and despondency over wide regions, to affect the nicely balanced neutrals and to encourage the enemy, who, of course, seizes upon any phrase or any gloomy allusion and repeats it myriad-fold in his strident propaganda.
    It is a nice question whether the increase in our war effort which would result from my Noble Friend administering this austere mental treatment to himself in the mornings would counterbalance the undoubted harm which would be done when a phrase torn from its context, and

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    probably with an alteration of the verb, is sent throughout the world—" Admission in the House of Commons by an eminent nobleman and ex-Minister: We are going to lose the war," or something like that. I am not blaming him at all. I feel just like him about it, and it is very much safer. It makes me feel very much whether Members of Parliament have not got to pick their words a little carefully. After all, in this deadly war in which we are gripped, with dangers which are measureless, as they are unprecedented, closing upon us in so many quarters, with so much to defend and such limited resources, so many chances which may turn ill against us—when we think of this position, it is a great pity if statements are made which add nothing to the informative; criticism which is so valuable, but can be taken from their context and placarded all over the world as a sign that we are not united or that our case is much worse than it is.
    There is one thing I regret very much, and that is that the brunt of this fighting in the Middle East—I quite agree it is a very foolish expression "in the Middle East "—or East should have fallen so heavily on the splendid Australian and New Zealand troops. I regret it for this reason among others, that the German propaganda is always reproaching us for fighting with other people's blood, and they mock us with the insulting taunt that England will fight to the last Australian or New Zealander. I was very glad to see that Mr. Menzies, in his noble speech of Sunday night, deal with this vile propaganda as it deserved. There have been, in fact, during 1941, almost as many British as there are Australian and New Zealand troops engaged in all the operations in the Western Desert, in Greece and in Crete. The losses during this year compared with the numbers engaged are slightly heavier for the British than for the Dominion troops.
    In Crete also, the numbers were almost exactly equal, and the British loss again was slightly heavier. These figures include killed, wounded and missing. They exclude Indian or non-British troops. In order to turn the edge of this German propaganda, I have asked my right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War to endeavour to have mentioned more frequently the names of British regiments, when this can be done without
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    detriment to the operations. The following British regiments and units, for instance, fought in Crete: The Rangers, the Black Watch, the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders, the Leicestershire Regiment, the Welch Regiment, the York and Lancaster Regiment, the Royal Artillery, the Royal Engineers and numbers of the Royal Marines, who formed he rearguard and suffered the most heavily of all. In fact, of 2,000 Royal Marines landed in Crete, 1,400 became casualties or prisoners. Naval losses of life in these operations exceeded 500 officers and men, and while this was going on, we also lost 1,300 men in the "Hood." Out of 90,000 lives lost so far in this war at home and abroad, at least 85,000 come from the Mother Country. Therefore, I repel and repudiate the German taunt, both on behalf of the Mother Country and of the Dominions of Australia and New Zealand.
    It might well be asked—I am trying to look at the questions which might fairly be asked—why, having begun the battle for Crete, did you not persist in the defence of the island? If you could bring off 17,000 men safely to return to Egypt, why could you not have reinforced with 17,000 men to carry on the battle? I have tried to explain in a simple way that the moment it was proved that we could not crush the air-borne landings before the Fleet losses became too heavy to hold off longer a sea-borne landing, Crete was lost, and it was necessary to save what was possible of the Army. It is one thing to take off 17,000 men as we did, with their side arms, and quite another to land them in a fighting condition with guns and materials. It is a wonderful thing that as many as 17,000 got away in face of the enemy's overwhelming command of the air.
    I do not consider that we should regret the Battle of Crete. The fighting there attained a severity and fierceness which the Germans have not previously encountered in their walk through Europe. In killed, wounded, missing and prisoners we have lost about 15,000 men. This takes no account of the losses of the Greeks and Cretans, who fought with the utmost bravery and suffered so heavily. On the other hand, from the most careful and precise inquiries I have made, and which

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    have been made by the Commanders-in-Chief on the spot, we believe that about 5,000 Germans were drowned in trying to cross the sea and at least 12,000 killed or wounded on the island itself. In addition, the air force the Germans employed sustained extraordinary losses, above 180 fighter and bomber aircraft being destroyed and at least 250 troop-carrying aeroplanes. This, at a time when our air strength is overtaking the enemy's, is important. I am sure it will be found that this sombre, ferocious battle, which was lost, and lost, I think, upon no great margin, was well worth fighting and that it will play an extremely important part in the whole defence of the Nile Valley throughout the present year. I do not think there are any who are responsible for it would not take the same decision again, although no doubt, like our critics, we should be wiser in many ways after the event.
    It is asked. Will the lessons of Crete be learned, and how will they affect the defence of this Island? Officers who took part in the thickest of the fighting in responsible positions, including a New Zealand brigadier, are already approaching this country. At the same time, very full appreciations have been made by the Staff in the Middle East and are being made in a more lengthy form. All this material will be examined by the General Staff here and will be placed at the disposal of General Sir Alan Brooke, who commands the several millions of armed men we have in this Island, including, of course, the Home Guard. Every effort will be made to profit by it. There are, however, two facts to be borne in mind in comparing what happened in Crete with what might happen here. In the first place, we rely upon a strong superiority in air power and certainly upon a much greater air power, both actually and relatively, than was proved sufficient last autumn. This sustains not only the land defence but liberates again the power of the Navy from the thraldom in which it was held round Crete. In the second place, the scale of the effort required from the Germans in' attack would have to be multiplied many times over from what was necessary in Crete, and it might be that this would be beyond the capacity of their resources or their schemes. Everything, however, will be done to. meet an air-borne
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    and sea-borne attack launched upon a vast scale and maintained with total disregard of losses.
    We shall not be lulled by the two arguments I have put forward into any undue sense of security. An attack by parachute troops and gliders may be likened to an attack by incendiary bombs, which, if not quickly extinguished one by one, may lead not only to serious fires but to an enormous conflagration. We are making many improvements in the defence of our airfields and in the mobility of the forces which will be employed upon that and other tasks. Nothing will be stinted, and not a moment will be lost. Here I ought to say that it is not true that the Germans clothed their parachute troops who attacked Crete in New Zealand uniforms. I gave that report to the House as it reached me from the Commander-in-Chief in the Middle East, but he now informs me that the mistake arose from the fact that parachute troops, after landing at one point, drove a number of New Zealand walking wounded before them and along with them in their attack, and consequently the cry arose that they themselves were in New Zealand uniforms. There is no objection to the use of parachute troops in war so long as they are properly dressed in the uniform of their country and so long as that uniform is in itself distinctive. This kind of fighting is, however, bound to become very fierce as it breaks out behind the fronts and lines of the armies, and the civil population is almost immediately involved.
    Now I come to the operations which have begun in Syria. I have been waiting all day to have further news of our advance, but at the time I got up to speak I had not received any advices that I could impart to the House.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Will the right hon. gentleman say something about the Air Arm co-operation?
    The Prime Minister: I certainly will. The right hon. Gentleman associated himself with a very strong movement there has been for a much greater development of the air force which is actually associated with the Army. Last year, when we were considering our affairs, the great need was to multiply fighters and

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    bombers. It became an enormously important matter. Nevertheless, portions of the Army co-operation squadrons were associated with the military forces, but not on the scale which was desirable or to the extent which was desirable. I think it is of the utmost consequence that every division, especially every armoured division, should have a chance to live its daily life and training in a close and precise relationship with a particular number of aircraft that it knows and that it can call up at will and need.
    Mr. Bellenger: Under its own command?
    The Prime Minister: Certainly, for the purposes of everything that is a tactical operation. It was not possible last year to provide it on a large scale without trenching on other domains which were more vital to our safety, but it is the intention to go forward upon that path immediately and to provide the Army with a larger number, a considerably larger number, of aeroplanes suited entirely to the work they have to do, and above all to the development of that wireless connection between the ground forces and the air which the Germans have carried to such an extraordinary point of perfection. If this had been done in Crete, it would not have made any difference to the event there, because the numbers there for the purpose of cooperating with the troops could not have altered the event.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport asked me who it was who decided that the Air Forces on the aerodromes in Crete were to be withdrawn. It was decided by the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force in the Middle East, on the recommendation of General Freyberg, concurred in by the R.A.F. officer commanding on the spot, Group-Captain Beamish. It was at that request. The numbers were small, and if they had not been withdrawn, they would have been blown off the aerodromes without having been able in the slightest degree to affect the course of events. I did overlook that point in my statement, and I am glad that my right hon. Friend has reminded me of it.
    Now I come to the Syrian operation. Let me repeat that we have no territorial designs in Syria or anywhere else in French territory. We seek no Colonies or
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    advantages of any kind for ourselves in this war. Let none of our French friends be deceived by the blatant German and Vichy propaganda. On the contrary, we shall do' all in our power to restore the freedom, independence and rights of France. I have, in a letter which I wrote to General de Gaulle, said "the rights and the greatness of France "; we shall do all in our power to restore her freedom and her rights, but it will be for the French to aid us in restoring her greatness. There can be no doubt that General de Gaulle is a more zealous defender of France's interests than are the men of Vichy, whose policy is that of utter subservience to the Germany enemy.
    It did not take much intelligence to see that the infiltration into Syria by the Germans and their intrigues in Iraq constituted very great dangers to the whole Eastern flank of our defence in the Nile Valley and the Suez Canal. The only choice before us in that theatre for some time has been whether to encourage the Free French to attempt a counter-penetration by themselves or whether, at heavy risk in delay, to prepare a considerable force, as we have done. It was also necessary to restore the position in Iraq before any serious advance in Syria could be made. Our relations with Vichy and the possibilities of an open breach with the Vichy Government evidently raised the military and strategic significance of these movements to the very highest point. Finally, and above all, the formidable menace of the invasion of Egypt by the German Army in Cyrenaica, supported by large Italian forces, with German stiffening, remains our chief pre-occupation in the Middle East.
    The advance by the German army forces into Egypt has been threatened for the last two months, and there would not be much use in attempting to cope with the situation in Syria, if, at the same time, our defences in the Western Desert were beaten down and broken through. We had to take all these things into consideration, and I was very glad indeed when General Wavell reported that he was in a position to make the advance which began on Sunday morning, and which, so far as I have been informed up to the present, is progressing with very little opposition and favourably. This position in Syria was very nearly gone. The German poison was spreading through the country, and the revolt in Iraq, perhaps

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    beginning prematurely, enabled us to take the necessary measures to correct the evil; but, as I say, we must not rejoice or give way to jubilation while we are "engaged in operations of this difficulty and when the reaction of the Germans still remains to us obscure and unknown.
    It is very easy, if I may say so, for critics, without troubling too much about our resources and even without a sense of the features of time and distance, to clamour for action now here and now there: "Why do you not go here; what "as I think an hon. Member said, "are you dithering about; why do you not go in there?" and so on. Indeed, one can see how many attractive strategic propositions there are, even with the most cursory examination of the atlas. But the House will, I am sure, best guard its own dignity and authority by refraining from taking sweeping or superficial views. Others have said that we must not follow a hand-to-mouth strategy, that we must regain the initiative and impart to all our operations that sense of mastery and design which the Germans so often display. No one agrees with that more than I do, but it is a good deal easier said than done, especially while the enemy possesses vastly superior resources and many important strategical advantages. For all those reasons I have never, as the House knows, encouraged any hope of a short or easy war.
    None the less, it would be a mistake to go to the other extreme and to belittle the remarkable achievements of our country and its Armed Forces. There are many things for which we may be thankful. The air attack on this Island has not overwhelmed us; indeed, we have risen through it and from it strengthened and glorified. There is no truth in the statement of my right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport, which he made in his speech in the country, that productivity in our factories is falling off at an alarming rate. It may not be going as fast as we would like, and if anyone can do anything to make it go faster, or tell us how to do it, he will be rendering a great service. But it is not simply a question of giving very strident orders and demands. There is a great deal more than that in making the whole of our factories, go properly, but it is certainly the exact reverse of the truth to
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    say that productivity is falling off at an alarming rate. In guns and heavy tanks, for instance, the monthly average for the first quarter of 1941 was 50 per cent. greater than in the last quarter of 1940. The output for the month of May, a four-week month, was the highest yet reached and more than double the monthly rate for the last quarter of 1940.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Surely my right hon. Friend is confusing productivity and the production. Of course, there is an increase of production in certain articles, but with absenteeism, to which his attention was called by the Labour party conference, and by the Select Committee on Aircraft Production, the output per man cannot be what it was, and one can give many other illustrations.
    Mr. Benjamin Smith: It is not the men but the lack of materials.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I agree.
    The Prime Minister: I read into the word the meaning most people read into it; when he said productivity was falling off, I took it to mean not (he effort of each man but the general production. I felt I must contradict his statement today because it happens that I have heard from two foreign countries in the course of the morning of the very serious effect which this statement produced upon opinions there; how it was published rapidly throughout Spain, for instance, and given the greatest prominence coming as it did from an ex-Secretary of State. It was said to be exercising a bad effect.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: But the Minister of Labour the very same day had said that the building of factories and aerodromes was falling behind. Did that get circulated in Spain?
    The Prime Minister: I do not see any difficulty in reconciling that. The Minister might be urging the men to make greater efforts, he might say that this particular lot of airfields were falling behind, what the programme actually was, but that is quite a different thing from saying that the productivity of our factories is falling off. I must say I do not think we are in a sufficiently safe position to allow ourselves the full luxuries of vehement statements upon these very grave matters. As I say, we have many things we may be thankful for. In the

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    first place, we have not been overwhelmed by the air attack; and our production, far from being beaten down by the disorganisation of that attack, has been increasing at a very high rate.
    The Battle of the Atlantic is also being well maintained. In January, Herr Hitler mentioned March as the peak month of his effort against us on the sea. We were to be exposed to attacks on a scale never before dreamed of, and there were rumours of hundreds of U-boats and masses of aircraft to be used against us. These rumours were spread against us in the world, and a very alarming impression was produced. March has gone, April has gone, May has gone, and now we are in the middle of June. Apart from the losses incurred in the fighting in the Mediterranean—which were serious— the month of May was the best month we have had for some time on the Atlantic. Prodigious exertions were made to bring in the cargoes and to protect the ships, and these exertions have not failed. It is much easier to sink ships than to build them or to bring them safely across the ocean. We have lately been taking a stronger hand in this sinking process ourselves. It is a most astonishing fact that in the month of May we sank, captured or caused to be scuttled no less than 257,000 tons of enemy shipping, although they present us with a target which is perhaps one-tenth as great as we present to them. While they slink from port to port, under the protection of their air umbrella, and make short, furtive voyages from port to port across the seas, we maintain our whole world-wide traffic, with never less than 2,000 ships on the seas or less than 400 in the danger zones on any day. Yet the losses we inflicted upon them in the month of May were, I think, in the nature of three-quarters of the losses they inflicted upon us. This also has a bearing on the possibility of sea-borne invasion, because the destruction of enemy tonnage is proceeding at a most rapid and satisfactory rate.
    Nor need these solid grounds for thankfulness and confidence fall from us when we look at the aspect of the war in the Middle East. We have been at war for 21 months. Almost a year has passed since France deserted us and Italy came in against us. If anybody had said in June last that we should to-day hold every yard of the territories for which
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    Great Britain is responsible in the Middle East; that we should have conquered the whole of the Italian Empire of Abyssinia, Eritrea and East Africa; that Egypt, Palestine and Iraq would have been successfully defended, he would have been thought a very foolish visionary. But that is the position at the moment. It is more than three months since the Germans gave out that they would be in Suez in a month and were telling the Spaniards that when Suez fell they would have to come into the war. Two months ago many people thought that we should be driven out of Tobruk, or forced to capitulate there. The last time we had a Debate on the war in this House so instructed a commentator as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) warned us gravely of the danger of a German thrust at Assiout, at the head of the delta.
    Six weeks ago all Iraq was aflame, and Habbaniya was declared to be in the direst jeopardy. Women and children were evacuated by air. It was reported from enemy quarters that a surrender would be forced. A hostile, insurgent Government ruled in Baghdad, in closest association with the Germans and the Italians. Our forces were pinned in Basra, having only just landed. Kirkuk and Mosul were in enemy hands. All has now been regained. We are advancing into Syria in force. Our front at Mersa Matruh in the Western Desert is unbroken and our defensive lines there are stronger than ever. The large forces which were occupied in the conquest of Abyssinia are now set free, with an immense mass of transport, and large numbers are on their way to, or have already reached, the Delta of the Nile.
    I think it would be most unfair and wrong, and very silly in the midst of a defence which has so far been crowned with remarkable success, to select the loss of the Crete salient as an excuse and pretext for branding with failure or taunt the great campaign for the defence of the Middle East, which has so far prospered beyond all expectation, and is now entering upon an even more intense and critical phase.
    I give no guarantee, I make no promise or prediction for the future. But if the next six months, during which we must expect even harder fighting and many disappointments, should find us in no worse

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    position than that in which we stand today, if, after having fought so long alone, single-handed against the might of Germany and against Italy, and against the intrigues and treachery of Vichy, we should still be found the faithful and
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    unbeaten guardians of the Nile Valley and of the regions that lie about it, then I say that a famous chapter will have been written in the martial history of the British Empire and Commonwealth of Nations.
    Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

TRANSPORT.
  RAILWAY WAGONS (SHEETING).
  RAILWAY WAGONS (SHEETING).
  PLEASURE TRAVEL PROHIBITION (ESSEX).
  PLEASURE TRAVEL PROHIBITION (ESSEX).
WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
  NEWS CINEMA, LONDON (REPAIR WORK).
  NEWS CINEMA, LONDON (REPAIR WORK).
  FLATS, WEST KENSINGTON (EVACUEES).
  FLATS, WEST KENSINGTON (EVACUEES).
  NAZI LEADERS (LETTERS).
  NAZI LEADERS (LETTERS).
NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.
  CENTRAL REGISTER.
  CENTRAL REGISTER.
  WELFARE SUPERVISORS.
  WELFARE SUPERVISORS.
  AERODROME CONSTRUCTION (SOLDIERS).
  AERODROME CONSTRUCTION (SOLDIERS).
  ROYAL DOCKYARDS (LABOUR).
  ROYAL DOCKYARDS (LABOUR).
  GUNS AND TANKS (OUTPUT).
  GUNS AND TANKS (OUTPUT).
  WINES, SPIRITS AND BEER (HOME CONSUMPTION).
  WINES, SPIRITS AND BEER (HOME CONSUMPTION).
  POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION.
  POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION.
  PERSONAL INJURIES (CIVILIANS) SCHEME.
  PERSONAL INJURIES (CIVILIANS) SCHEME.
  AIR-RAID VICTIMS (FUNERALS).
  AIR-RAID VICTIMS (FUNERALS).
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  SURGICAL BELTS.
  SURGICAL BELTS.
  TRADING WITH THE ENEMY (BRITISH SUBJECTS ABROAD).
  TRADING WITH THE ENEMY (BRITISH SUBJECTS ABROAD).
  CLOTHES RATIONING.
  CLOTHES RATIONING.
MILITARY SERVICE.
  PROTECTED ESTABLISHMENTS (REGISTER).
  PROTECTED ESTABLISHMENTS (REGISTER).
  BUILDING OPERATIVES.
  BUILDING OPERATIVES.
  EIRE (UNITED STATES FOOD SHIPMENTS).
  EIRE (UNITED STATES FOOD SHIPMENTS).
  INDIAN SEAMEN (ACCOMMODATION),
  INDIAN SEAMEN (ACCOMMODATION),
  POST OFFICE (AIRGRAPH SERVICE).
  POST OFFICE (AIRGRAPH SERVICE).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (LEGAL APPOINTMENTS).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (LEGAL APPOINTMENTS).
CIVIL DEFENCE.
  EMERGENCY FEEDING CENTRES.
  EMERGENCY FEEDING CENTRES.
  DETENTIONS.
  DETENTIONS.
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  BRITISH RESTAURANTS (MENUS).
  BRITISH RESTAURANTS (MENUS).
  PRISONS (DIETARY).
  PRISONS (DIETARY).
  MINISTRY OF FOOD (TRADE ADVISERS).
  MINISTRY OF FOOD (TRADE ADVISERS).
  NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE INSTITUTES.
  NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE INSTITUTES.
BRITISH ARMY.
  RE-ENLISTED PENSIONERS (PAY).
  RE-ENLISTED PENSIONERS (PAY).
  HOME GUARD.
  HOME GUARD.
  ROAD ACCIDENTS.
  ROAD ACCIDENTS.
  BREAD SUPPLY.
  BREAD SUPPLY.
  MECHANISED TRANSPORT CORPS.
  MECHANISED TRANSPORT CORPS.
  SENTENCE.
  SENTENCE.
  ANTI-AIRCRAFT DEFENCE.
  ANTI-AIRCRAFT DEFENCE.
  UNITS (MENTION).
  UNITS (MENTION).
  JEWISH SOLDIERS.
  JEWISH SOLDIERS.
  PAY (INCOME TAX DEDUCTIONS).
  PAY (INCOME TAX DEDUCTIONS).
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  TRAINING.
  TRAINING.
  AERODROMES (DEFENCE).
  AERODROMES (DEFENCE).
  BRITISH AND ENEMY AIRCRAFT LOSSES.
  BRITISH AND ENEMY AIRCRAFT LOSSES.
  EVACUEES (RENT, ALTON).
  EVACUEES (RENT, ALTON).
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  MEDICAL PLANNING COMMISSION.
  MEDICAL PLANNING COMMISSION.
  CHANNEL ISLANDS (REFUGEES).
  CHANNEL ISLANDS (REFUGEES).
Preamble
Reassembling after the Whitsun Recess, the House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

TRIBUTES TO THE LATE LORD CADMAN.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD MOYNE): My Lords, since we last met the House has suffered a heavy loss in the death of Lord Cadman. A mining engineer by profession, he was possessed of very great scientific knowledge of his subject, especially of petroleum technology. After varied experiences on the practical side of these problems, first as manager and then as an inspector of coal mines, he became a leading international authority on petroleum, and he had a very great part in the development of the great oil fields in the Middle-East. All his life he retained his scientific and academic interests, and he was, indeed, for twelve years a professor in Birmingham University. When he gave up academic life and took up more active business interests, he retained his position as the trusted adviser of the Government on all questions of petroleum and its development, and he undoubtedly performed the very greatest services to this country in this matter, which, as our war experience has taught us all, is of such vital interest. The House will, I am sure, desire to express sympathy with Lady Cadman and his son.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Addison has asked me to say how much he regrets being unable to be present in person this afternoon, owing to an attack of influenza. Lord Cadman worked with him at the Ministry of Munitions during the last war and he wishes me to say how much he appreciated the wise advice and valuable assistance rendered by Lord Cadman at that time and how greatly he deplores—associating himself with what the noble Lord has said—the loss to the nation at such a critical moment of so distinguished a scientist and business man.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I desire to add a word to what has already been said about Lord Cadman. He was an outstanding figure in the subjects to which he devoted the greater part of his life and he attained, as the noble Lord opposite has said, an international reputation in that regard. It happened that in the last war I was associated with him in an inquiry that took place as to the possibility of utilising our mineral resources in the production of oil and petroleum, and I well remember how deeply I was impressed not merely by his knowledge of the subject but by the broad manner in which he was able to survey the question. I therefore, on behalf of my noble friends who sit here, join to the utmost in the sympathy which I trust will be conveyed to Lady Cadman and his family.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, if you will allow me I should like to add one word on behalf of the University of Birmingham. Lord Cadman, as the noble Lord opposite reminded us, was for some years a professor in that university, and achieved a very great reputation there, as he did elsewhere. I am sure the university would wish me to join in expressing warm adherence to everything that has fallen from the noble Lord.
THE MINISTER OF FOOD (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I hope you will allow me to add a few words to what has been said because I had the great privilege of friendship with John Cadman. I believe that it was in that simple relationship that the secret of his great power lay. He had almost a genius for friendship. He was so modest, so humble in the estimation of his own powers that he sought the solution of the profound problems with which he was so often faced in the simplicity of the approach that he made to them. Whether he was dealing with the great potentates with whom his business brought him into contact, or with working men or with witnesses before a Commission, he remained always simple and unaffected, having no other interest than the serving of truth and the general good.
I was privileged to serve under him a very few years ago in an inquiry that was submitted" to us by the Government of

343
the time, as a matter of great urgency. It was characteristic of Lord Cadman's leadership that those of us who were associated with him put aside two months of our time to deal with this problem. We met at the Treasury very soon after nine o'clock in the morning and we remained there until eight o'clock at night, only adjourning in order that we might meet again to pursue the problem after dinner. But such were the qualities of leadership of Lord Cadman as Chairman that those who were associated with him were only conscious of the exhilaration of the achievement of a piece of constructive work and not of the fatigue that such labours entailed. It was immediately after this inquiry into the problems of aviation that Lord Cadman's health began to fail, and I have no doubt as to the reasons for it. He was, my Lords, a man who was great in his simplicity. He rendered eminent service to the State. He came to your Lordships' House as an industrialist whose service to his country had been so great as to move His Majesty to ennoble him. I am sure his son will carry on his traditions, and his life will remain an inspiration to those of us who with affection and with gratitude will seek to follow his example.

TEMPORARY MIGRATION OF CHILDREN (GUARDIANSHIP) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
RATING (WAR DAMAGE) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a.

LIABILITIES (WAR-TIME ADJUSTMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, you will remember that this Bill originated in this House, and it was carried with universal approval, it being a measure which is designed to help those who are put in a position of financial difficulty owing to the circumstances of the war by providing for arrangements or adjustments in
344
their business affairs. The Bill has received universal support in another place, but in the course of the proceedings there a number of Amendments have been made, all of them, I think, at the instance of the Government. It is with these Amendments that we now have to deal. I move that these Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
[The references are to Bill No. 14.]
Clause 1, page 3, line 34, leave out from ("and") to the end of the subsection, and insert ("every scheme so approved shall be registered in the prescribed manner.
(10) Nothing in the Deeds of Arrangement Act, 1914, shall apply to a scheme approved under this section.")
Clause 3, page 4, line 19, after ("his") insert ("accrued")
Clause 3, page 4, line 19, leave out ("and") and insert ("or will be unable, after payment of his accrued debts (if any)")
Clause 3, page 4, line 22, after ("his") insert ("accrued")
Clause 3, page 4, line 24, leave out from ("would") to ("recovering") in line 25, and insert ("have no reasonable prospect of preserving or")
Clause 3, page 5, line 13, after ("agreement") insert ("being land or goods in the debtor's possession at the date of the order")
Clause 3, page 5, line 14, after ("upon") insert ("any such")
Clause 3, page 5, line 15, leave out from ("of") to end of line, and insert ("any such goods")
Clause 3, page 5, line 24, leave out ("those Acts") and insert ("that Act")
Clause 3, page 5, line 28, at the beginning, insert ("The Court may in")
Clause 3, page 5, line 28, leave out ("may")
Clause 5, page 8, line 2, after ("debtor") insert ("which is subsisting at the date of the protection order")
Clause 6, page 8, line 7, after ("Where") insert ("at the date of the protection order")
Clause 6, page 8, line 10, after ("1939") insert ("or")
Clause 6, page 8, line 11, leave out ("or this Act")
Clause 6, page 8, line 23, after the third ("the") insert ("liabilities adjustment")
Clause 6, page 8, line 29, after ("Where") insert ("at the date of the protection order")
Clause 6, page 8, line 31, after ("may") insert (."provide in the liabilities adjustment order")
Clause 6, page 8, line 34, leave out ("vest" and insert ("for the vesting of")
Clause 6, page 8, line 41, at end insert ("Provided that the Court shall not provide for the vesting of any goods under this sub-section before the debtor has paid in respect of the hire-purchase price sums amounting at least to the value of the goods at the date of the liabilities adjustment order.")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if you will look at the printed paper you will at once observe that most of these Amendment!; are of a formal or drafting character. It will, I think, suit the convenience of the House if I put a number of them to the House in a group. On the first page there are Amendments to Clause 1, Clause 3 and Clause 5 and over the page to Clause 6. Broadly speaking, they are all convenient adjustments of the Bill involving no new point of principle or of discussion. If I may, I will take that bunch of Amendments and I move that the House doth agree with the Commons in these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 7, page 9, line 10, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may").
Clause 7, page 9, line 13. leave out ("the value of security") and insert ("a security is valued and the value").
Clause 7, page 9, line 19, leave out from the second ("realised") to the first ("the") in line 20.
Clause 7, page 9, line 21. after ("adjustments") insert ("as may be necessary").
Clause page 10, leave out lines 1 and 2 and insert ("value of the mortgaged property at the date of the order").
Clause 10, page 12, line 7, at end insert ("and, in particular, where a liabilities adjustment order reduces the rent of any premises or the rate of mortgage interest payable in respect of any mortgaged property, an application for the variation of the order may be made on the ground that the lettable value of the premises or, as the case may be, the net annual value of the mortgaged property has altered since the date of the order.")
Clause 12, page 13, line 16, after ("possession") insert ("by virtue of the exercise of the powers of the Court")
Clause 12, page 13, line 17, after the first ("or") insert ("subject to a")
Clause 12, page 13, line 18, leave out from the first ("contract") to ("in") in. line 19, and insert ("the repayment or performance of which is provided for")
Clause 13, page 13, line 37, leave out ("if it") and insert ("Provided that, if the Court")
Clause 13, page 13, line 39, after ("to") insert ("persons other than")
Clause 13, page 13,line 39, at end insert ("it shall discontinue the proceedings")
Clause 13, page 13,line 42, leave out ("of")
Clause 13, page 14, line 42, leave out ("exercises its powers under") and insert ("continue the liabilities adjustment proceedings, to subsection (1) of")
Clause 14, page 16, line 14, after ("their") insert ("accrued")
Clause 14, page 16, line 14, leave out ("and") and insert ("or will be unable, after payment of their accrued debts (if any)")
Clause 14, page 16, line 17, after ("their") insert ("accrued")
Clause 14, page 16, line 18, leave out from ("would") to ("or") in line 20 and insert ("have no reasonable prospect of preserving or recovering the business of the firm")
Clause 16, page 18, line 31, leave out ("publication") and insert ("giving")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, next comes Clause 7 and in that clause there is an alteration which has been made in another place and which I invite you to accept. It perhaps calls for a single word of explanation. Clause 7 appears on page 9 of the Bill. As the Bill left this House it contained in Clause 7, subsection 1 (c) a requirement that if a secured creditor did not either realise or surrender his security he shall cause it to be valued and, if the value is less than the amount secured, he may prove for the balance. On consideration, it has been felt that this as it stood would be unduly harsh on the creditor. He may not wish to value, he may wish to stand on his security for what it may turn out to be worth, and there seems no reason why he should not be allowed to do so if he wishes. If you compel him to value he may put a value on the security which may be less than the amount ultimately realised. That would be unfair on him. The modification proposed is to leave out "shall" and insert "may" and make a number of other consequential provisions which follow. That is the proposal in connection with Clause 7. I do not think I need pause to explain the provisions in Clause 10, or Clause 12, or Clause 13, or Clause 14, or Clause 16. I will move that the Amendments on the Paper in Clauses 7 to 16 be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 18, page 19, line 41, leave out from ("order") to ("any") in line 43 and insert ("varies under Section six or Section seven of this Act the terms of")
Clause 18, page 19, line 43, after ("lease") insert ("or")
Clause 18, page 19, line 43, leave out from ("mortgage") to ("the") in line 44.
Clause 18, page 19, line 45, after ("lease") insert ("or")
Clause 18, page 19, line 45, leave out ("or contract")
Clause 18, page 19, line 46, leave out ("him") and insert ("the debtor")
Clause 18, page 19, line 46, leave out from ("surety") to ("for") in line 47.
Clause 18, page 20, line 3, leave out ("such person") and insert ("person who is a surety or in the nature of a surety for the debtor or is jointly bound with him")
Clause 18, page 20, line 4, leave out ("him") and insert ("any such person")
Clause 21, page 21, line 12, leave out ("liabilities adjustment") and insert ("protection")
Clause 21, page 21, line 20, leave out ("shall")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, that brings me to Clause 18 at the foot of page 3, where again I must just offer a word of exposition. If your Lord-ships will turn to the text of the Bill you will see that in Clause 18, at the bottom of page 19, the provision which is there made is applied to lease, mortgage and contract. The main effect of the Amendment which has been made in the Commons is to leave out "contract" and apply the clause only to the lease or the mortgage. It is a somewhat technical matter which I will explain at greater length if desired. The point is that there is really no direct advantage in including the case of contract, and the necessary protection of the debtor with fair terms for the creditor will be just as well secured if that reference is omitted. Other Amendments follow, Clause 18, page 19, line 45, leave out "or contract," being the main one. I think your Lordships may safely take it that the changes on page 20 and to Clause 21, on page 21, are purely drafting changes. I therefore beg to move that this House agrees with the Commons in making those Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 21, line 20, at end insert the following new clause:
Exemption from stamp duties.
("Where a protection order is made, or a scheme of arrangement is approved, under this part of this Act—

(a) every deed, conveyance, assignment or other instrument relating solely to property which was the property of the debtor at the date of the protection order or of the approval of the scheme and which, after the execution of the instrument, is or remains his property or the property of a trustee appointed under the order or for the purposes of the scheme;

(b) every power of attorney, proxy-paper, writ, order, certificate, affidavit, bond or other instrument required for the purposes of the liabilities adjustment proceedings or the sheme of arrangement;

shall be exempt from stamp duties, except in respect of fees chargeable under this Act.")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I now come to a matter of more interest and of more importance, and one, indeed, which may be expected to appeal favourably to everyone, with the possible exception of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When this Bill was before your Lordships' House on a previous occasion, my noble and learned friend Lord Maugham asked whether it would not be possible to secure that if conveyances, assignments and the like to trustees have to be made in connection with the machinery of this Bill, these instruments could be carried through without imposing the usual stamp duties. It would seem a curious provision that when you are struggling to help a citizen who is in financial stress because of the war you should make arrangements by which very considerable stamp duties might have to be paid on the necessary transfer of his property to trustees. I will not say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has shown an unexpectedly warm heart in dealing with this matter, but at any rate this is one of the occasions where he has consented to make a concession, and therefore the proposal made by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, has been embodied in the new clause which is now proposed. I think that this gives a very great aid to these hard-pressed people which will be very much appreciated outside, and which I do not doubt will be

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approved by your Lordships' House. I therefore move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 23, page 22, line 7, leave out ("this Part") and insert ("Section six and Section seven")
Clause 25, page. 2, line 42, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")
Clause 25, page 23, line 17., leave out from ("into") to the first ("the") in line 19.
Clause 25, page 23, line 21, after ("made") insert ("of entered into")
Clause 25, page 23, line 29, after ("Act") insert ("offer than those mentioned in paragraph (c) and paragraph (d) of the proviso to that subsection")
Clause 25, page 23, line 36, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")
Clause 26, page 24, line 17, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")
Clause 26, page 24, line 18, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")
Clause 26, page 24, line 22, leave out ("commencement ') and insert ("passing")
Clause 27 page 25, line 34, after the second ("a") insert ("provable")
Clause 27 page 25, line 35, at end insert (""net annual value," in relation to any mortgaged property, means the net annual profits which, in the opinion of the Court, the property could reasonably be expected to produce.")
Clause 28 page 26, line 3, at the beginning insert ("Part 1 of")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, there remain only some proposals of a drafting character which relate to Clauses 23, 25, 26, 27 and 28. I think that your Lordships may be confident that we shall do no injury if we agree to these Amendments without explanation or discussion and I beg to move accordingly.
Moved, That the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MANUFACTURE OF BEER.
LORD ARNOLD LORD ARNOLD rose to call attention to the large amount of foodstuffs being used in the manufacture of beer; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is, I think, the first time that
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the drink problem and the question of foodstuffs in relation thereto, apart from mere question and answer, has been raised in Parliament since the war began. One reason why these matters have not been brought up before is that the attitude of the Government and of the Minister of Food in relation to them, when representations have been made, has been very discouraging. However, the food position is becoming more difficult, and I have felt it my duty to raise this question in your Lordships' House.
In this war, in sharp contrast to what happened in the last war, the Government seem to have made up their minds that little should be done to deal with beer, apart from heavier taxation; but that heavier taxation has not really been effective in reducing consumption, and, in fact, the consumption of beer has recently slightly increased. I would explain to your Lordships that the brewers were allowed to take as a datum year the twelve months to September, 1939—broadly speaking, the year before the war. That was—and this is important—a year in which the largest number of standard barrels was brewed for ten years. In the following twelve months, the twelve months to September, 1940, the standard barrels brewed were reduced by about 33/4 per cent. as compared with the datum year; but in the six months to March last—the six months from October 1, 1940, to March 31, 1941—brewing actually exceeded that of the corresponding six months in the datum year of 1939. It exceeded it by a very slight percentage, it is true, but still it did exceed it.
We arrive at the astonishing result, therefore, that whereas the taxation of beer has since the war been increased by threepence a pint, the consumption went down only very slightly, and has recently been, as I have said, actually higher than in the corresponding six months of the datum year. Whereas many vital foodstuffs are now severely rationed, beer remains in a position of unique and apparently unchallengeable supremacy. As we all know, the consumption of meat, tea, sugar, butter, bacon, cheese and jam has been greatly cut down, but beer has had no such rationing. There has been no decline worth speaking of in its consumption, while recently there has been a very slight increase. All this means that a large amount of foodstuffs is being used by the

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brewers, chiefly barley and sugar, and I should like to deal with those two commodities.
I will take barley first. The amount of barley now being used by the brewers per annum is probably about 600,000 tons. That is sufficient to feed some 36,000,000 hens, and I think that it is very important to consider this matter of the barley consumed in brewing in relation to the problem of hens and eggs. Before the war the total number of hens in the country was, in round figures, 72,000,000. The Government have deemed it necessary that by next autumn that number should be cut down to about one-sixth, that is, to about 12,000,000. If the barley used by the brewers, taking it at 600,000 tons a year, was available for feeding poultry, it would keep about 36,000,000 hens, thus bringing the total number of hens up to 48,000,000, instead of the 12,000,000 envisaged by the Board of Agriculture.
I am not suggesting that matters should be carried as far as that. It is not a practical proposition to stop brewing, but it is within the sphere of practical politics to reduce the amount of beer brewed, because that was done in the last war. In the last war, the standard barrels of beer were cut down from 35,324,000 at the beginning of the war to 12,791,000 in 1918; that is to say, in the last war the standard barrels of beer were reduced by the Food Controller of those days by nearly two-thirds. How does the matter stand now? The number of standard barrels now brewed is probably between 18,000,000 and 19,000,000 barrels per annum. My suggestion is that this number should gradually—it cannot be done all at once—be halved. In view of what was done in the last war, there is nothing unreasonable in that suggestion, and it would be a less severe rationing than has taken place in the case of several other commodities.
If the standard barrels of beer brewed were by degrees halved, the barley saved in that way would be sufficient to feed about 18,000,000 hens, so that the 12,000,000 hens envisaged by the authorities as the number which we should have in the autumn would be increased to 30,000,000, or two and a half times as many. Of course we should hope—and it would naturally be so—that eggs would be
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increased proportionately. That would make a vast difference to the people of this country, many of whom do not even see an egg. Actually 18,000,000 hens should provide somewhere about 2,000,000,000 eggs. These eggs would be very useful to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, in his problem of rationing eggs. They would be sufficient to provide somewhere about four eggs per family a week throughout the country.
I am quite aware that the brewers are making, or are said to be making since last February, a voluntary contribution to meet the serious position of cereal supplies and the need to economise the use of shipping space. It was stated on February 9 last that the brewers were reducing by 10 per cent. the cereals used in the brewing of their beer. If this cut has been fully made, especially taking into account the cut in sugar, to which I shall refer in a moment, how is it that the number of standard barrels manufactured in the three months to March last, shows an increase over the corresponding three months of the previous year and is even slightly higher than in the datum year? Moreover, if this 10 per cent. voluntary cut announced on February 9 is being generally applied, how is it that in the Brewing Trade Review for June, 1941, published only a few days ago, there is this statement which I am going to read? The statement says:
"It was the desire of the authorities that beer should be available where it was required up to the limit which had been laid down, which was the standard barrelage brewed in the twelve months ended 30th September, 1939."
I suppose that is correct. I should like to ask the noble Lord, is it the desire of the authorities that beer should be available to that limit? The statement also says that
" so long as that aggregate standard barrel-age was not exceeded over the whole country, there was no limitation to the output o£ any individual brewery, and there was no necessity for any brewer to restrict his supplies of beer for reasons of supplies of materials."
I should like to ask the Minister of Food, is that correct? It is very difficult to reconcile these words with the 10 per cent. voluntary cut in cereals being in operation. Can the Minister say if that 10 per cent. voluntary cut is fully in operation?
I now leave barley and come to sugar. For the first few months of the war the brewers were not cut down in sugar at all. From April, 1940, they had a ration of 70 per cent. of their pre-war supply, and in June, 1940, the 70 per cent. was reduced to 60 per cent. Nevertheless the brewers were, and still are, in respect of sugar, in a very favourable position compared with other manufacturers using sugar. Actually the brewers are still consuming about 130,000,000 lbs. of sugar a year, and that is equal to about six weeks' sugar ration for the whole population. Again, proceeding on the assumption that the beer now being brewed is in due course—I do not say it can be done all at once—cut down by half, then the saving in sugar would be equal to about three week;' sugar ration for the whole population. This would mean that for a family of four there would be enough sugar available to make about twelve pound pots of jam. As it is, I think I am correct in saying that there is no sugar available to private persons for making jam unless they can save some out of their meagre ration.
Surely the policy which I have outlined as regards the brewers and sugar is not unreasonable but is very reasonable, having regard to the fact that no persons engaged in the making of foods requiring sugar are getting as much as the brewers—at any rate none are getting more, and in most cases they are getting less. For instance, those making pudding and sponge mixtures, custard powders, and infant foods are only getting 50 per cent. of their pre-war rations, and those making fruit juices, syrups, squashes, and mineral waters, which are non-alcoholic, are only getting 40 per cent. of their pre-war rations. Moreover, here is another question which I should like very much to ask the noble Lord. Art; the brewers actually cut down to 00 per cent. of their pre-war sugar? Is that happening? I ask this question because of an article which appeared in the Brewers' Almanac of 1941, which was recently published. The Brewers' Almanac has an article on sugar which contains these singular words:
" The allocation of sugar to the brewing industry as a whole is 60 per cent. of the quantity used in the year ended September 30, 1939, but the allocation for each individual brewer is fixed from time to time by the Minister and is at present 70 per cent."
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If these words are correct they are very mysterious. Perhaps the Minister will be good enough to explain what they mean, and what the actual position is in regard to the cut of 60 per cent. in sugar for brewers.
Before leaving the problems of barley and sugar, I should like to ask the Minister a further question. In February of last year it was announced that the consumption of sugar for brewing would be reduced as from April to 70 per cent. of the normal requirements, but it was also stated that supplies of cereals would, if necessary, be available to meet the deficiency. Very well. If cereals have been supplied to the brewers to meet their sugar deficiency, and in view of the fact, as I have said, that brewing for the six months to March last was actually in excess of the corresponding six months of the datum year, are not the brewers, taking everything into account, actually getting about as much barley as they were doing before the war? I am only asking the question; I want to know. If that is so, or if they are getting nearly as much barley as before the war, it is surely a wrong state of things in view of the food shortage from which the whole country is suffering, especially, as I have indicated, in the matter of eggs.
There is one argument I should like to deal with on the other side if your Lord-ships will bear with me. The argument that can be advanced by the Government in support of their beer and drink policy, if I may so call it, is that revenue is received from it. The total amount of revenue got from beer now in the course of a year, on the present taxation, is about £151,000,000. That is out of a total revenue in a full year, on the basis of existing taxation, of somewhere in the neighbourhood of £1,900,000,000. Thus the revenue from beer amounts to little more than is. 6d. in the £ of the national revenue. The yield from the tobacco duty is a good deal more than the yield from beer duty. The yield from tobacco is no less than £183,000,000. That is an astounding figure. It is nearly as much as the whole national expenditure thirty years ago when I first came to Parliament. That is the estimated yield during the current twelve months. As I have said, the proportion of the total revenue which is got from beer is not a large one, being only about is. 6d. in the pound.
I have not proposed that beer drinking should be abolished altogether. As I have said, that is not practicable, but if the beer barrelage were halved, the loss of revenue would be about £75,000,000 a year. In normal times this would soon be made good from other sources, and even in war-time most of it would, I think, be made good. The Liquor Control Board in the last war—we have no Liquor Control Board in this war, but we had a very efficiene one in the last war—referred in their reports to the increased efficiency of the workers as a result of restrictions on drinking. Thus, if drinking were reduced owing to the beer brewed being cut down by one half, the increased efficiency of the workers would mean that the national income would be higher. This would mean a bigger yield from the Income Tax and Surtax. Before long, there would follow a higher yield from the Death Duties owing to greater capital values. Then the yield from the Entertainment Tax and the Purchase Tax would be increased as there would be more money to spend on cinemas and so forth. No doubt also the yield from the tobacco duty would be increased because there would be more money to spend on tobacco.
Moreover, may I remind your Lord-ships that there are two sides to the national accounts, revenue and expenditure, and if the beer bill were halved the Chancellor of the Exchequer would benefit, not only on the receipt side but also on the expenditure side? Crime would be less, which would mean a saving in the cost of prisons and the administration of justice. The improved health of the people would advantage the health insurance scheme, with beneficial results all round in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would share. Moreover, it seems not unreasonable to suppose that some of the money available owing to the smaller expenditure on beer would find its way into savings certificates, and that is something which the Government and the Chancellor of the Exchequer would welcome. Altogether, then, I think that a good case can be made out for the view that the national finances would not suffer if the revenue from beer were cut down by half. I am not going to pursue this subject further now because this is not the Motion for it. I will only say that
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several Chancellors of the Exchequer and financial and economic authorities have taken the view that the revenue from drink is dearly bought. In fact, Sir George Murray, when he was Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, said:
" It is impossible for the State to make out of the liquor traffic, the profits never balance the losses."
I must draw to a close, but let me make one or two points quite shortly. In the debates which have taken place in your Lordships' House on financial and cognate subjects it has again and again been stressed that if the finances of the country are to be kept on a sound basis and inflation avoided personal consumption should be further reduced. Now, so far as food is concerned the Government have already done a good deal to cut down consumption by rationing, but they have up to the present time done very little to ration luxuries. Beer may certainly be described as a luxury and I think this view was taken by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, himself in a letter which he wrote to a correspondent last April. Furthermore, one of the tragedies of the drink problem is that all these valuable foodstuffs, barley, sugar and others in a lesser degree, are almost entirely wasted from the point of view of nutrition. Surely, that is an important matter for the Ministry of Food.
In point of fact, there is practically no nourishment in beer. Beers vary somewhat, but speaking generally there is only about as much nourishment in a half pint glass of beer as there is in about half an ounce of bread costing less than one-eighth of a penny. Sir Frederick Gowland Hopkins, O.M.—and you could scarcely have a higher authority—used these words, speaking of beer:
" I have, to say the truth, hardly patience to deal with the often suggested and sometimes vaunted nutritional value of that beverage. The claim when not wholly insincere is ridiculous. A pint of beer mostly sold to-day contains some carbohydrate material with a fuel value only equal to that of about one ounce of bread, but even this material is so much altered by fermentation that we do not know whether it has real value as food."
Therefore it seems doubtful if the tiny fraction of carbohydrate material in beer has food value, and in any case the amount is so small that, as I have said, there is practically no nourishment in beer.
I do not think it can be argued that the present high consumption of beer is necessary in order to maintain the morale of the workers at its present level. This is an important point about which there might be much argument, but the experience of the last war in my submission is the answer to any such contention. There was a reduction—a big reduction. As I have told your Lordships the standard barrelage was cut down by nearly two-thirds in the last war. That was a big reduction. The Food Controller and the Liquor Control Board acted sternly and the morale of the country did not suffer in any way that mattered. In fact, I think it is fair to contend that the efficiency of the workers was increased. I think that must be sc because, as I have told your Lordships, the Liquor Control Board re-ported about the increased efficiency of the workers as a result of restrictions on drinking.
This is practically my last point, but I must deal with it because it is one of the chief defences of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for not dealing with beer consumption. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, if he will allow me to say so, has in so many ways done such splendid work in his very difficult task; but one of his chief detences in this matter of the drink problem is this. He said it would be entirely wrong for him to use his power to introduce social reforms of one kind or another. I think that is a strange argument. The effect of some other Government regulations and restrictions is in the direction of reforms which have been favoured by certain sections of the community. Also, I would remind the noble Lord, his argument about social reform cannot be an adequate one for refusing to deal with beer drinking because it did not stop action, and very drastic action, being taken in the last war.
No, my Lords, the question is not one of social reform but: of what is just and fair as between one citizen and another. This favoured treatment for brewers is, I think, all the more difficult to defend because more than half the population, taking into account children—and of course they should be taken into account where matters of food are concerned—do not drink either beer or spirits and are teetotallers. Is it right, is it fair, that those who do not drink should suffer in this
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matter of food, especially as regards eggs, because those who do drink and who are the minority of the nation are receiving what I do not think there is any exaggeration in describing as favoured treatment? Surely, if there is to be favouritism shown to any industry it ought to be to one that caters for the people as a whole and not one like the drink industry with which more than half the population has no dealing. Finally, may I remind your Lordships that in the last war Mr. Lloyd George said:
" Drink is doing more damage in the war than all the German submarines put together."
And later on in the war he stated:
" We are fighting Germany, Austria and drink, and as far as I can see the greatest of these three deadly foes is drink."
That is why drastic steps were taken by the Food Controller and the Liquor Control Board to restrict the amount of beer drunk during the last war. It is very difficult to understand why so little has been done to deal with these matters in this war. I beg to move.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I think it might help the debate if I intervened at an early stage in order that your Lord-ships may have before you the salient facts of the situation as His Majesty's Government see it. I have had much pressure brought to bear upon me by temperance organisations to deal drastically with the consumption of alcoholic liquors. I speak not only with respect, but with admiration for all bodies that are seeking to advocate temperance habits among the people of this country: they have been engaged on this beneficent work for very many years, and I would now beg them not so far to falter in their faith in their own course of temperance as to urge upon His Majesty's Government that the process of education should give place in this matter to the process of compulsion.
The noble Lord, Lord Arnold, will forgive me saying that he has done me just a little less than justice by stopping in the middle of a quotation from a remark that I made. I did say to a deputation of gentlemen, who came to urge upon me that the brewing trade should be closed down, that it would be improper for me to use the very great powers that Parliament has conferred upon Ministers of the

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Crown to introduce by means of enactments under the Defence Regulations a social reform that would not pass the House of Commons or the House of Lords. I have always held that this problem of the drink trade was a very highly controversial one, and it would be grossly improper for me to use the very great powers that you have given Ministers to take action which, if it were submitted to a free vote of either of the Houses of Parliament, I know quite well would be defeated. The noble Lord did not complete the full statement that I made.
LORD ARNOLD: It was not designed. That was the quotation that I heard.
LORD WOOLTON: I am very conscious of the statement I made. I think that my personal record will show that I have every sympathy with social reform, but I have no sympathy with dictatorial powers of Ministers that would not meet with the approval of Parliament. I think, my Lords, that it is inevitable that we should constantly consider doing again in this war what we did in the last war, but in so far as the drink trade is concerned the present circumstances are very different from what they were in 1914. In 1913 nearly twice as much raw material was converted into beer as in 1939: we therefore began this war on a totally different basis. Let me give you precise figures. In 1913 1,554,000 tons of cereals and of sugar were used in the making of beer. In 1939 only 795,000 tons were used. The actual saving in raw materials effected as a result of the drastic reduction to which the noble Lord referred in 1918, as compared with 1913, amounted to 900,000 tons, whereas the total we were using in 1939 was only 795,000 tons. In 1914 we brewed in this country 36,000,000 standard barrels. In 1939 we brewed only 18,000,000 standard barrels, and, moreover, the beer that was brewed in 1939 was of considerably lower gravity than that which was brewed in 1914.
Not only is the quantity of beer brewed to-day so much smaller than in 1914, but it is, in fact, of lower gravity than was reached at the lowest point in the last war. Side by side with these facts, it should be remembered that the population of this country to-day is greater by three millions than it was in 1918. At the outbreak of
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war, therefore, His Majesty's Government decided that the output of beer should continue at the level of the output of standard barrels for the year ended September, 1939. The brewing industry was, therefore, given permission to brew up to 19,000,000 barrels in 1940. In fact, they only brewed 18,000,000. The output for the first six months of the current excise year has reached 8.7 million standard barrels.
I would like now to draw your Lordships' attention to the financial side of this business. In 1914 the duty on beer was 7s. 9d. per barrel; in 1918 it rose to 25s. per barrel; in 1939 it was 80s. per barrel, and it is now 165s. per barrel—seven times what is was in 1918, and twice what it was at the outbreak of this war. Receipts from Customs and Excise revenue on beer amounted in 1940–41 to £139,000,000 and on all alcoholic liquor to £194,000,000. Income Tax and Super-tax for the same year amounted to £524,000,000. Consumers of alcoholic liquor, therefore, paid into the revenue more than one-third of the amount which Income and Super-tax payers have paid.
There is one further fact that I would like to place before your Lordships, and that is the restriction that has been placed on the use of raw materials. Brewers are only permitted to use home-grown barley, and the allocation of sugar to them has been reduced to 60 per cent. of pre-war usage. By controlling the purchase of cereals for brewing we have saved between 150,000 and 200,000 tons of cereals that have been diverted from brewing to animal feeding-stuffs in the current cereal year.
Those, my Lords, are the facts. I have brought them to your Lordships' notice in order to show that whilst His Majesty's Government have not indeed been as drastic as the noble Lord would have liked them to have been, they are at any rate exercising some control over this trade, and I ought to state that they have throughout met with the co-operation of the trade in the process of exercising that control. I know of course that there are many people in this country who share the noble Lord's view that the production of alcoholic liquors should be considerably controlled during war-time. There are also very many people in this country who believe that a glass of beer does nobody any harm, and that if we

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are to keep up anything approaching the normal life of the people in this country, then beer should continue to be in supply even if it were beer of a rather weaker variety than connoisseurs would like.
It is the business of the Government not only to maintain life but also to maintain the morale of the people of the country, and I do beg to differ from the noble Lord when he says that the restrictions which were placed on the consumption of beer in the last war—when in fact the barrelage went down to about 13,500,000—had no effect at all on the morale of the people. There was indeed a very considerable amount of industrial disquiet as the result of the inability of the people to get beer. On all these food questions with which I have to deal there arc constantly competing pulls. Some people say that it would be better to have eggs. Some people say that sugar would be better in this place than in that place. All that I can do is to listen to all the advice that I get—and indeed I get a very great deal of advice—and, with my colleagues in the Cabinet, try to come to a balanced view as to what is the best way in which I can use such food supplies as we have. My colleagues and I have given great consideration to this question just as we have to the whole of our supply position. On the question of alternative uses to which supplies can be put, we have come to the conclusion that, at any rate for the time being, it is in the public interest that the production of light beers should continue and should continue to the present amount. I am sure that the noble Lord is aware that in certain parts of the country there are complaints of shortages of beer. In the small village in which I spent Sunday night I was told that they were able to keep the public-houses open only for an hour on some days of the week on that account.
With respect, I would say, do not let us exaggerate this problem. We are not facing the same problem as the Liquor Control Board faced—incidentally I was very fortunate to have some association with that body in the last war to a minor degree. We are not, as I say, facing the same problem they had to face. There is no great amount of drunkenness in this country at the present time. There is not the slightest evidence, I submit, that the amount of beer available at the present time is doing anything at all to reduce the
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output of munitions or to curtail the amount of work that is being done by the public. I submit, moreover, that there is no evidence to show that excessive drinking is leading either to crime or to bad health on the part of the public. It is because we are in the fortunate position of having a sober and, as I think, a temperate nation that we have decided that at any rate for the time being—and in-deed I will not commit myself any further than the immediate future because it would be folly for anyone to commit himself to a supply position for more than a few months ahead—we have concluded that it is wise to allow the present production of beer at this reduced gravity to continue.
If the noble Lord will allow me to say so, I know that the reasons which have caused him to raise this subject are indeed of the highest and that he is thinking merely of the well-being of the public of this country. I, too, have had those considerations in my mind and, rightly or wrongly, my colleagues and I have come to a conclusion which is different from that which the noble Lord draws from present circumstances.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, before withdrawing the Motion perhaps you will allow me to say one or two further words. I had not the slightest intention of misrepresenting the noble Lord in the quotation which I gave. That was the quotation as I had it, and I gave it quite honestly. I do not think that it makes any material difference to put the addition which he named. The point is this: in the last war the Liquor Control Board and the Food Controller—for the Food Controller was actually responsible, I think—cut down the barrelage by nearly two-thirds. He did not ask for majorities in the House of Commons or in the House of Lords. The country accepted the cut and the country would accept anything within reason which the noble Lord enacted in regard to this problem, just as it has accepted a great many other things. I do not think that point particularly helps this discussion. When the noble Lord tells us that the quantity of beer brewed in 1939 was less than in 1914 and that the gravity was less, that is perfectly true. But is it not also the case—and I think his own Parliamentary Under-Secretary said this in another place—is it not unfortunately the case

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that the food position now is more acute than it was in the last war? That is something which should not be forgotten in considering this quesion. The noble Lord also said that the population was 3,000,000 more now than in 1918.
LORD WOOLTON: The population in this country.
LORD ARNOLD: The population in this country. He has left out the Free State. The Free State is taken away. Therefore the total population is less than in 1918. The noble Lord has not replied to the specific question which I put as to whether, taking into account compensatory conditions created because of the cut in sugar, brewers are now receiving as much barley as before the war. He does not reply to that and I am sorry. I put it as moderately as I could, and I think it is important. Nor did he deal with the passage I put from the Brewers' Almanac about the 70 per cent. allowance of sugar. However, he has given us a full reply in certain respects, for which I thank him. It does not, however, from the point of view which I advance, carry matters much further, which I think is unfortunate. I am not without hope that as time goes on there may be some alteration in the directions which I have urged. I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

ACCRUED PAY OF PRISONERS OF WAR.
LORD MOTTISTONE LORD MOTTISTONE had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will now arrange that such sums as accrue to Other Ranks prisoners of war in respect of non-allotted pay shall be treated as savings and credited to them as such with the addition of interest at 2½ per cent., and whether in the case of officer prisoners, some of whom have been able to instruct their bankers or agents to invest their accrued pay in Government securities, they will now make arrangements through the appropriate channel to inform all officers that they can take advantage of this facility by communicating with their bankers or agents.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, since I last addressed your Lordships I understand
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that the noble Lord who is to reply has been consulting other authorities, and so I shall not delay you for more than a few moments; nor would I delay you at all but for the fact that there would appear to be a failure on the part of the Departments concerned to realise the strong feeling that there is in your Lordships' House, and I am sure outside it, that justice should be done in this matter. I have read in the Press that the Financial Secretary to the War Office has stated that the private soldier is in exactly the same position as the officer in this matter. Let me say at once, and quite bluntly, that that is the reverse of the truth. I base that upon the speech which the noble Lord himself made here and upon the letter, from which I quoted, which I have received from the Secretary of State for War.
We really must put this matter right. I have had a number of letters on the subject from your Lordships, including letters from noble Lords who cannot be here today and who wish to support me further, saying that it is intolerable that officers should have an advantage which is denied to the men. Those who hate that most of all are, of course, the officers; they did not know that it was so, but it is so, and it must be put right. I beg my noble friend to realise that this is not a matter which can be settled in the way referred to by the Financial Secretary. If I may say so in all good humour, the Financial Secretary cannot be a law unto himself. The Secretary of State says—I quote the exact words:
"The Pay Warrant clearly recognises that issues of pay during imprisonment "—
this refers to private soldiers and other ranks—
"depends on circumstances, and further, that on rejoining the colours no further issues will be made until it has been decided whether a court of inquiry should be held."
That is perfectly clear. In previous wars it did not matter much, because the issue did not arise on the particular points to which I draw attention in my question, but now it does matter and, since the question has been raised, it should be put right.
The officer draws his pay and can deal with it as he pleases, provided that he can communicate with the people here at home. The man does not draw his pay; it is a book entry, and so much so that

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he will not be entitled to any pay even after hostilities come to an end until it is decided whether his surrender was justified. The historical reasons for this I have been unable to trace, but the facts are not in dispute, and I would beg my noble friend not to follow the line taken by the Financial Secretary; he cannot do so, because his own Secretary of State says the exact opposite. It is desirable that this should be cleared up, and I know that I shall have your Lordships' support in seeing that this is done.
The issues are quite clear, and there are two of them. The first is, should not officers and men be treated alike? I know that your Lordships have no doubt as to that, and would go into the Division Lobby in support of it, but for the fact that, unfortunately, we have no Division Lobby here. I know that your Lordships feel acutely about it, because you expressed your views on the last occasion. Officers and men are not treated alike; the Secretary of State for War himself points out that the man does not in fact receive any pay, that it is only a book entry, and that he will not receive any pay until after a court of inquiry is held. He ought to be in receipt of pay pending the inquiry, in the same way that the officer is. The second point is whether he should be entitled to interest on the money so saved, just as the officer is if he can communicate with his home. That officers do do this is certainly the case. As I told your Lordships on the last occasion, the General Manager of the biggest bank dealing with the pay of officers, Cox and King's, Mr. Yelf—an excellent man, who is very keen on national savings and who approaches this subject from the war savings point of view—pointed out when I met him that every day he was investing money for officer prisoners. Other rank prisoners ought to have the same advantage.
I now come to what I can only call the very disingenuous statement made by the Financial Secretary. He said that the man is entitled to his pay. That is not true. The Financial Secretary thought so, or he would not have said it; but the Pay Warrant is quite explicit, and I think that it will be necessary—and I speak perhaps with more knowledge than he has—to take account of: the fact that a Royal Warrant cannot be amended except by another Royal Warrant. Therefore, if it
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is desired to make it possible for a man to be entitled to that portion of his un-alloted pay now and hereafter, subject to the provision as to future inquiry, the Pay Warrant must be amended by another Royal Warrant or by special legislation. I have made inquiries and I find that that is so. It has been said that all that a man has to do to put himself on an equality with the commissioned ranks is to tell the Regimental Paymaster to invest his money in the Post Office or in some other form of national savings. How can the man do that? It is trifling with Parliament to suggest it. I have made inquiries, and I think it is true to say that not one single prisoner has asked the Regimental Paymaster to invest his money in national savings—not one out of the forty or fifty thousand which I believe is the number given in the Press. We must not trifle with Parliament in this way. There is this real inequality.
There remains the point of whether it is reasonable that this 2½ per cent. which I suggest—the usual rate of interest in the Post Office Savings Bank—should be added to the savings of the man when in due course, after the inquiry has been held—and until the Pay Warrant is amended this has to be done—the money is paid over. I think there can be no doubt in your minds that it is reasonable that that should be so. It is not reasonable to say to the man: "We will give you the £15 10s. which has accrued to you during the period that you were a prisoner, but you are very lucky to get that, although it is true that you have not been at fault. If you wanted to get the interest, you ought to have told the Regimental Paymaster." I should like my noble friend to consider the case of the men who have been left in Crete, and who have been compelled to surrender through no fault of their own. They will be told that they cannot have this little sum—it seems very small to us, but it means a good deal to them—because they did not communicate with the Regimental Paymaster. There are two answers which can be given. The first is that under the Royal Warrant the Paymaster could not have agreed. That can be put right. The second is that the men cannot in fact communicate, because no man has. There is no doubt about the fact that they cannot.
What ought to be done? What ought your Lordships to insist on being done? I know that you will be at one with me in saying that this equality should prevail. It is high time that Parliament asserted itself in this matter; some mysterious influence is preventing obvious justice from being done. It should be laid down that if any money is paid over to the man, it should be paid over with accrued interest. Here, after we have been all these months and years begging people to lend everything they have got to the Government, these men are unable to do so, partly because the money has not accrued to them and partly because they cannot communicate for the reason that they are prisoners of war. The simple solution—as the Adjutant-General said, the only possible solution—is to say that the money, when it is paid, shall be paid over with accrued interest. It would be wise to add, as I have suggested on the Paper, that if you can communicate with the officers, which is very difficult, they should also be told that if they wish it they can send messages to their bankers.
In the case of the men it would be ridiculous to communicate with them and say "Do you wish to have accrued interest?" when it is quite obvious that they do. The number of men in the Army who would say, "I prefer to leave this money as an interest-free loan" must be so small as to be absolutely negligible. We do not want to finish up this war with any sense of grievance on the part of prisoners. Here is a case where, if we so decree, we can sweep away a source of friction and anger. I am perfectly certain that if the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Ex chequer were here, they would agree that we cannot allow this source of grievance to continue now that the matter has been ventilated, as I have ventilated it, at the request of the important Committee on which I serve.
I must apologise to my noble friends for having interrupted the interesting speech by Lord Arnold in trying to come to an agreement to save time. I know I embarrassed some of your Lordships who could not hear what was said, and I apologise. I make this suggestion to my noble friend. If he appointed a small Committee of the three Services, which are all equally interested, and said, "We
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must have equality of treatment as between officers and men," and, secondly, that there must be proper interest paid to the men, and then left the Committee to carry out what I am sure are your Lordships' wishes, I should be satisfied and I think the House would be satisfied. I beg to move for Papers.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg the noble Lord's pardon, but there is no notice of any Motion on the Paper.
LORD MOTTISTONE: I apologise to your Lordships. It is the fact that the words "and to move for Papers" have been omitted. I beg formally to add these words. The Clerks at the Table will remember that, in consultation with Lord Moyne, I put this Notice down for this day, and they said to me, "Would you like it in the same words?" I said, "Exactly the same words, but with the addition of the word 'now'. "The error is not mine, but no doubt these things often happen. In point of fact, I said, "Put down the exact words as before." When I first put it down I thought it was agreed. I added "to move for Papers" later, as the officials of the House will remember, and they took the earlier Notice and not the last one.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have no authority in this matter to decide. I think, perhaps, it would be well to learn from some other member whether, in his opinion, it would be proper to put that Question from the Woolsack. I am willing to do so if that is the view of the House.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the noble Lord can hardly modify the Notice on the Paper. We were interested to hear from him the reason why he did not have the Motion on the Paper, but I am afraid that is so, and it must remain so. I do not think the noble Lord will suffer very much as he will get an answer to his question.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I do not like to give in when I know that I am right technically. What Lord Moyne said to the Clerk at the Table was "Well, then, we shall put it down for this day in the same words." Of course we cannot appeal to the Clerk.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Order! Order! We are not accustomed

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to hear about private conversations that pass between the Clerk and the Leader of the House. These are private matters.
LORD MOTTISTONE: I do not agree at all. I have been told I cannot move the Motion, of which I gave due notice in legal form, and I think it is perfectly proper that we should find out why. The Leader of the House accepted that it should be moved in that form on this day, and the fact that it is not in that form is not any fault of mine. Having said that—and I state it emphatically—I am prepared to accept the position because probably we are all of one mind in the matter. I do not wish it to be thought for a moment that we are not entitled to hear what the Leader of the House said.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, my noble friend in raising his question again, as by the agreement of everyone he suggested he would, has asked me to give him assurances on certain lines. If your Lordships will kindly follow what I have to say, you will see that on the three main points of my noble friend his case is met. But I do want to suggest to him—and I am sure your Lordships will agree—that although it helps a case sometimes to give the impression that representatives of the Services are supporting a proposal, any private conversation with the Adjutant-General must not be taken as an official expression of opinion any more than the suggestion that if the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer were here they would immediately consent. It seems to me we must manage our own affairs without expressing the opinion of permanent officials, members of the Staff of the War Office, or other authorities who are not present. As I promised the noble Lord on May 20, steps are being taken as to the best means of reminding officer prisoners that they can invest any savings in Government stock. We think that officers are probably aware of this fact, and that it can be done by an instruction to their bankers. We are considering whether any further steps can be taken to make this matter better known amongst them.
The noble Lord in the debate on May 20 and again to-day raised a subject of far wider implication than that contained actually in the question which is repeated
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on the Order Paper—namely, the question of interest on pay for other ranks which on the previous occasion he described as a most absurd discrimination between the officer and the man. Now I have had time to look more fully into all the facts in connection with this subject, and I find I was right in informing the noble Lord that there is in fact no intention of discrimination in favour of the officer prisoners as against other ranks in this matter. As a matter of fact the officer's pay is paid into his banking account to be dealt with by the bank at the order of the officer, and the pay of other ranks is credited to their account with the Regimental Paymaster to be dealt with at the order of the soldier, except that family or dependants' allowance with the appropriate allotment in issue is not credited but is paid direct to the beneficiary.
Just as an officer can give specific instructions to his bankers as to the disposal of amounts standing to his credit, so, similarly, if a soldier prisoner of war gives instructions to the Regimental Paymaster to dispose of a portion of his pay as an allotment to his family or dependants within the limit provided for other soldiers, or to invest a portion of his daily rate of pay in the Army Savings Scheme, or to deal with the balance standing at the time to the credit of his account by way of remittances, his instructions will be honoured. In neither case is the bank or the Regimental Paymaster entitled to act without definite instructions from the officer or the soldier concerned. The pay of prisoners of war cannot automatically be treated as savings for the purpose of earning interest, but Paymasters have been instructed to comply with requests from other rank prisoners of war to dispose of their credit balances in the Army Savings Scheme. As in the case of officers, we are now considering whether any steps can be taken to ensure that this is generally known, but we must be perfectly sure that there is no risk in any measures we may take that would defeat the object which we all seek to attain. I am very glad, my Lords, to be able thus further, I hope, to clarify this matter.
I must remind the noble Lord that when his previous question was down for May 20, he honoured me with a visit on the day before, the 19th and on that

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occasion I asked him if he could postpone his question for one week because, for reasons which I am sure were quite adequate, I was unable to go as fully into the subject then as I would desire owing to the very short notice. Now, apparently, my noble friend, if he will permit me still to call him so after my transgressions, unlike most of us, had the full facts before him for twenty-seven years, since he was himself Secretary of State for War. During all this time he has had this skeleton in his cupboard. As he stated in the debate:
" I did not alter it, but I agree that it was a very wrong thing."
Why, then, did he not alter it? Because, as with astonishing candour he told us, he thought no one "knew that this shocking law existed." But I must remind him that there were also war savings in the last war, and exactly the same question would have arisen then had he chosen to bring the facts to light; but the skeleton remained locked up in his cupboard.
I want, how ever, to reassure my noble friend that he really should not allow this administrative omission, if I may so describe it, to weigh too heavily on his conscience because what he now describes as a very wrong and cruel thing has, in fact, as far as I know—and I have tried to make very widespread inquiries into this matter—never been found to be a grievance either during the Boer War, the War of 1914–18 or in the present war. The lurid description of my noble friend that "soldiers were regarded as guilty until found to be innocent "may, I think, be described as having little relation to the facts. It was rhetorical licence. The King's Regulations lay down that the senior officer or senior soldier at the time of surrender is treated alike. The paragraph is paragraph 775. Further it is not a fact that the pay of prisoners of war is withheld until a court of inquiry has established their innocence. The Manual of Military Law states:
Absence as a prisoner of war, however, does not cause forfeiture of pay unless a court of inquiry decides that the soldier was taken prisoner through neglect or misconduct on his part."
That will be found in the Manual of Military Law, page 549, Clause 7.
But I think my noble friend bases his case on this subject chiefly on the Pay
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Warrant. I would ask my noble friend 10 turn to page 285 and there he will find the article in question which reads:
"A soldier shall not forfeit his rate of pay during the period of his absence as a prisoner of war unless it shall have been proved, before a court of inquiry convened by order of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, that he was taken prisoner through neglect or misconduct on his part. In that case he shall forfeit any balance of pay unissued to him during the period of imprisonment."
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, as I have no right of reply, perhaps my noble friend will permit me to intervene in order to clear up this point. I have studied the Pay Warrant carefully, and the section in the Pay Warrant in question shows that the soldier does not receive any pay until after the court of inquiry has come to a decision. That is the real point.
LORD CROFT: I think my noble friend and I have the same purpose in our minds. May I point out that I think he was influenced by the footnote on that subject, and I should like my noble friend to allow me to read it:
" The issue of pay to a soldier while a prisoner of war must depend on circumstances. On his rejoining no further issues will be made until it has been decided whether a court of inquiry should be held. If such a court should be held and the court is satisfied that the soldier was taken prisoner through his own neglect or misconduct he shall forfeit any balance of pay unissued at the date of origin. In all other cases the unissued balances will be paid to him."
But it is the clause which governs the footnote, and our decisions are invariably governed by that clause. There may be cases where the soldier is proceeded against, but, thank heaven, they are very rare in the British Army. It is almost inconceivable that we should hear of such cases, but there may be cases where it is necessary to inquire into the conduct of the soldier, and, equally, there may be cases where it is necessary to inquire into the conduct of an officer.
I am sure my noble and gallant friend as an ex-Secretary of State for War is anxious, as I am anxious, that it should not be imagined that this is a class issue. Believe me, such an issue has never been raised. My noble friend has undoubtedly raised it from the highest motives because he really thinks there is substance in the point, but I can assure him there is no such issue. I would just like to give your Lordships this interesting fact. I have

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had a search made, and I found what your Lordships would, I think, really desire to know upon the matter of procedure. In the Great War of 1914–18 on his return each officer prisoner of war was required to make a statement of his capture. This statement was examined by a committee presided over by a very distinguished officer, and the committee, if satisfied, issued a certificate exonerating the officer from blame. These certificates were entered into special files and kept with the officers' personal papers. In a number of cases the committee called on the officer for further explanation than that given in the statement. I believe that there was only one case in which a certificate was not issued and that even then the evidence was not sufficient to take further action.
In regard to other ranks—I would ask your Lordships to note particularly this fact, because it docs seem to me important, if we are deciding whether officers are treated better than the men, that we should look at both sides—there was no system of examining each case. The number of cases subject to investigation were those in which there had come into existence at the time the man fell into enemy hands evidence which tended to establish that it was a case of desertion. Such cases were very rare. Your Lordships will see that in dealing with this question there has not been discrimination as between officers and men. Your Lordships, I am sure, would not suggest that the power of the Army Council to inquire into the conduct of either officer or man should be eliminated from our Regulations. That would be the last thing your Lordships would suggest.
My noble friend, I know, raised this question because of his great love and affection for the Army and because he is very anxious that these matters should be completely cleared up. He may rest assured that there is no discrimination. There may be difficulties as to how to get information to a man, whether officer or soldier, whether in Crete or in Germany, but we are taking every step to see how we can give the information to them that they can, if they so desire, invest their money through the Army Savings Scheme. My noble friend may rest assured that, if they have balances available and so desire, facilities will be given to them. Though this subject
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has aroused very great interest in your Lordships' House, I think none of us, except perhaps my noble friend, has made a very profound study of it, but now that I have stated the facts I think it will be seen that there has not been a grievance. Officers and men are in an equal position if they can invest and desire to invest money in the way suggested, and consultations are now going on to see how we can best bring information both to the officers and soldiers concerned.
LORD PORTSEA: My Lords, may I, with your Lordships' permission, say one word on this matter? The noble Lord's speech was satisfactory to me except in one particular and that was on the question of family allowances. In the case of those men in whom I am most interested, those who come from the Norman Islands, it is not possible to pay to the wives and children family allowances at the present moment. Whether they are prisoners or not prisoners they are practically in the same position; it is not possible for the Government at this moment to pay those allowances. Am I to understand that these allowances will be kept until the end of the war and have 2½ per cent. interest added when they are ultimately paid to the people to whom, under the Warrant, they are due?
LORD CROFT: If my noble friend would kindly address a question to me on that particular subject I should be very glad to look into it. I cannot give an answer offhand with regard to men from the Channel Islands.
LORD PORTSEA: Why not? They are serving His Majesty.
LORD CROFT: Yes, but men from the Channel Islands are on a somewhat different basis. I shall be pleased to look into the matter and give a complete answer.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I have no right of reply, but perhaps your Lordships will permit me to conclude this business by saying that so far as I am concerned I am satisfied that my noble friend is determined to see complete equality between officer and man in this highly complicated business. Your Lord-ships may have apprehended that it is the footnote to the Pay Warrant that has been the cause of the trouble. If that

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footnote is not to be acted upon the thing is done. I thank my noble friend for his courtesy.

  PALESTINE: WAR DAMAGE COVER.
  PALESTINE: WAR DAMAGE COVER.
GREENOCK PORT AND HARBOURS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

CENTRAL ELECTRICITY BOARD (INCREASE OF BORROWING POWERS) SPECIAL ORDER, 1941.
Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity Supply Act;, 1882 to 1936, and confirmed by the Minister of War Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, and the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the

Borough of Lydd;

Urban District of Wilmslow:

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.