Sitting of 10 December 1941

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
JAPANESE ATTACK ON MALAYA.

  BRITISH NAVAL LOSSES.
  Mr. Speaker: I understand the Prime Minister has an important statement to make which it is essential he should make immediately. Perhaps the House would agree on this occasion that he should be allowed to make the statement before Questions, and I am sure the House will agree also that we should prolong Questions, beyond the time fixed for Questions, by the amount of time taken up by the statement.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): I have bad news for the House, which I think I should pass on to them at the earliest possible moment. A report has been received from Singapore that His Majesty's Ship "Prince of Wales" and His Majesty's Ship "Repulse" have been sunk while carrying out operations against a Japanese attack on Malaya. No details are yet available except those contained in the Japanese official communique, which claims that both ships were sunk by air attack. I may add that on our next Sitting Day I shall take occasion to make a short statement on the general war situation, which has, from many points of view, both favourable and adverse, undergone important changes in the last few days.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  FINLAND, HUNGARY AND RUMANIA.
  Mr. Cocksasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the relations between His Majesty's Government and the Governments of Finland, Hungary and Rumania?
  Mr. Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government propose yet to
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  break off relations with Finland, as requested by the Soviet Government?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Richard Law): The Finnish Government have always attempted to maintain that their war against the Soviet Union is of a purely defensive character. Though this attitude ill accorded with the manner in which they were prosecuting the war in conjunction with Germany, it was obviously to the advantage of the Soviet Government as well as of His Majesty's Government that Finland should be induced if possible to withdraw from active hostilities. Nevertheless, it became increasingly obvious that, despite Finnish protestations, the Finnish Government were unable or unwilling to avoid full association with Germany. On 22nd September His Majesty's Government conveyed a message to the Finnish Government, through the Norwegian Government, to the effect that if the Finnish Government persisted in invading purely Russian territory a situation would arise in which Great Britain would be forced to treat Finland as an open enemy not only while the war lasted but also when peace should come to be made. The Finnish reply was unsatisfactory, protesting that Finland was in fact waging only a defensive war.
  A further examination of the various factors concerned was made by His Majesty's Government in consultation with the Government of the U.S.S.R., and in agreement with them His Majesty's Government decided to give the Finnish Government a final opportunity to withdraw from active hostilities and to cease collaborating with the common enemy. On 28th November a message was sent to the Finnish Government through the United States Minister at Helsingfors stating that unless by 5th December Finland ceased military operations against the U.S.S.R., His Majesty's Government would be obliged to declare that a state of war existed between the two countries. Similar messages were sent to the Rumanian and Hungarian Governments, whose cases had been treated throughout on the same footing as that of Finland. As the requisite assurances were not forthcoming, His Majesty's Government declared war upon Finland, Rumania and Hungary as from one minute after midnight, G.M.T., on 7th December.

  GREAT BRITAIN, RUSSIA AND IRAN.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present position with regard to the negotiations for an Anglo-Russian-Persian Treaty of Alliance; whether he is aware that telegrams are still passing unchecked between Berlin and Teheran; that obstruction is being met with by journalists in despatching news to America; and what action he is taking in the matter?
  Mr. Priceasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether he is aware that telegraphic and telephonic communication is open between Teheran and Berlin; and what steps he has taken to ensure that information detrimental to the interests of the Allies is not going to Germany by this route;
  (2) what progress is being made with the negotiations for the conclusion of a treaty between the United Kingdom and the Government of Iran; and whether this treaty concerns the development of communications from the Persian Gulf for supplies to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?
  Mr. Law: On 5th December, the British and Soviet representatives presented to the Persian Government the final draft of the Treaty. If the Persian Government accept this draft, the Treaty will be signed immediately. The Persian Government have co-operated fully in the development of communications for supplies to the Soviet Union, and their cooperation is confirmed in the draft treaty. All telegraphic, including wireless, correspondence between Teheran and Berlin has been stopped, and there is no means of telephonic communication between Persia and Europe. As regards Press telegrams from Teheran to the United States, I understand that one such telegram was recently refused by the Persian authorities for reasons which are not altogether clear, but I am not aware that difficulties have arisen in other cases.
  Mr. Mander: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is causing the prolonged delay, in view of the fact that the Foreign Secretary stated on 30th September that he expected before long to bring forward an agreement for a treaty?
  Mr. Law: Any complicated negotiations take a certain amount of time, but I hope they will be concluded shortly.
  Mr. Mander: Can the hon. Gentleman say the date on which telegraphic communication stopped? Was it recently or some time ago?
  Mr. Law: I should want notice of that Question.
  Mr. Price: Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that everything is being done to improve communications with the Persian Government and Russia and to enable supplies to go through?
  Mr. Law: Yes, Sir, everything possible is being done.

  CHINA (STRIKE, HANKOW).
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Sir JOHN WARDLAW-MILNE:
  5. To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position regarding the "Central China Post"; and what action has been taken by the British Consul-General at Hankow, in view of the fact that statements have been made to the Consulate which prove conclusively the political character of the disturbance?
  Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: In view of what has happened during the past few days, I do not expect a detailed answer to my Question.
  Mr. Law: The latest information received suggested that the strike was continuing. Owing, however, to recent events in the Far East, it is no longer possible to obtain information as to the position.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    AWARDS AND MESSING (DISTINCTIONS).
    Mr. Ammonasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will consider abolishing the social distinctions in the Air Force exemplified by differential awards to sergeant-pilots and commissioned officers for similar acts of courage and responsibility and the use of different mess-rooms?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): The differences to which the hon. Member refers are inherent in the structure of a Fighting Service. In the case of decorations, the D.F.C. and D.F.M. are equal in merit,

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    and I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on 9th October. As regards the second part of the Question, apart from the objections to common messes from a disciplinary point of view, the present arrangements are convenient and well-liked, and there is no desire in the Service for a change.
    Mr. Ammon: If they are equal why is it necessary to have two separate awards? As this is a new Service why is it necessary to carry over the old snobbery and class-distinction?
    Captain Balfour: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the very cogent arguments which were given to him by myself when he raised the matter on the Adjournment many months ago.
    Mr. Ammon: Is not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that those were superficial and absurd arguments?
    Mr. Mander: Is it not the case that sergeant-pilots have the opportunity on their merits of receiving a commission?
    Captain Balfour: That is so. There is a clear run through from the lowest rank to air marshal.

    ROYAL OBSERVER CORPS (UNIFORM).
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has any announcement to make with regard to the issue of uniform to the Royal Observer Corps?
    Captain Balfour: A blue uniform of the battledress type has now been approved for wear by members of the Royal Observer Corps. It is expected that issues of this uniform will begin about the end of February.

    DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCE.
    Mr. Craik Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Air whether it is proposed to amend the dependants' allowance regulations so that, in all cases where the dependant's net income is less than 25s. per week, it shall be made up to that amount?
    Captain Balfour: No, Sir. My hon. Friend's suggestion would not be consistent with the purpose of dependants' allowance, which is to assist a man in maintaining the contribution which he made towards the support of a dependant before joining the Forces.
    Mr. Henderson: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that there is a considerable amount of dissatisfaction over the fact that where a dependant may be getting 12s. or 15s. a week, he receives no allowance at all? If below that, it is made up to that figure at least.
    Captain Balfour: Dependants' allowance is related to the amount of the prewar contribution and is issuable at four fixed rates—13s., 18s., 21s. 6d. and 25s. a week. The airman is required, as a condition of the issue of dependants' allowance, to make a contributory allotment, which varies according to his pay.

    SQUADRON-LEADER HECTOR BOLITHO.
    Commander Bowerasked the Secretary of State for Air the appointment held by Squadron-Leader Hector Bolitho, who recently broadcast in the United States of America over the Columbia system; whether this officer received leave of absence to visit the United States of America; and for what purpose?
    Captain Balfour: This officer is employed on editorial work in the department of the Air Member for Personnel at the Air Ministry. The broadcast in question was not concerned with Service subjects. It was delivered from London on the invitation of an American broadcasting company. The second and third parts of the Question do not therefore arise.
    Commander Bower: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend consult with the Minister of Information to try and stop activities of this sort, which can do nothing but harm both in this country and in America?
    Captain Balfour: My hon. Friend has a Question down a little later to the Minister of Information on this particular subject, and no doubt that will provide him with an opportunity.

    AERODROMES (DEFENCE).
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for Air whether the whole of the ordinary ground personnel of the Royal Air Force aerodromes are armed and receive the training of soldiers so that, in the case of emergency, they may be able to do their share properly in the defence of their aerodrome?
    Captain Balfour: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the present organisation for the defence of every aerodrome, or whether he will consider placing the defence of all aerodromes under one supreme command to work in co-operation with the Royal Air Force?
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): Work upon this aspect of our defences has been continuous for many months, and improvements both in organisation and in actual defences are being continually made.
    Mr. Purbrick: Is it not a fact that aerodromes are defended in a fashion different from one another, and would it not be better to synchronise the methods so that they could all be fortified in the same way, and that that could only be done by bringing them under one supreme command?
    Mr. Attlee: That is a matter for consideration. We are getting the best advice we can from experts.
    Mr. Purbrick: I asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider it.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Air Force and Army officers, between whom the responsibility for the defence of aerodromes is divided, are completely dissatisfied with the organisation?

    AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (FACTORY MANAGEMENT).
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Aircraft Production in how many instances he has had to change the management of factories engaged in aircraft production in order to secure more efficient production?
    The Minister of Aircraft Production (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon): There have only been two cases in which managements have been changed as a result of the exercise of compulsory powers by my Department. There have, however, been several instances in which managements have been changed or strengthened at the request or suggestion of my Department.
    Mr. Lipson: Does not that answer show that the allegations which are made widely about incompetency in management are hardly justified by the facts?

  WAR TRANSPORT.

    LONDON SUBURBAN RAILWAY SERVICES.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether the proposed cuts in train services will apply to the suburban services to the east of London; whether he is aware that these are already greatly overcrowded in the rush hours, and consider improving them rather than cutting them down?
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Colonel Llewellin): The answer to the first part of the Question is "No, Sir," but in answer to the second part I regret that I cannot give any undertaking that these services will be increased.

    CARGO SHIPS (SPEED).
    Mr. Craik Hendersonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he has considered the shipbuilding programme of the United States of America for cargo ships with speeds of 14 or 15½ knots; and whether he proposes to encourage a higher speed than is now usual here in our future construction of at least a proportion of cargo ships?
    Colonel Llewellin: The United States' pre-war shipbuilding programme provides for the construction of cargo ships of a speed of 14 knots and upwards. It has now been supplemented by an emergency programme for the construction of ships whose speed is comparable with that of the cargo tramps we are building. In addition to our cargo tramp building substantial numbers of cargo liners of speeds of 14 knots upwards are being built.
    Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Does not my right hon. and gallant Friend appreciate that it is the low speed of the tramp steamer which makes convoys so difficult?
    Colonel Llewellin: I fully appreciate that, but it is very much quicker to turn out these tramps than to turn out ocean liners with the rate of speed.

    TRAFFIC BEACONS.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what representations he has received against the removal of the Belisha beacons; and what reply he has made to them?
    Colonel Llewellin: The only representations of this order which I have so far received came from the Pedestrians' Association. I replied:
    "With regard to Belisha beacons, no decision has yet been taken, but I have noted the views of your Association. On the other hand, you will appreciate that there are strong reasons at the present time for their being turned over to scrap. We must determine in what way they can best serve the national interest."
    Mr. Lipson: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind that these beacons afford a measure of protection to young children and elderly persons? Will he bear that in mind, particularly in view of the large number of road accidents?
    Colonel Llewellin: I am not sure that the beacons serve the purpose which my hon. Friend has in mind. I think the pedestrian crossings do that. The only advantage of the beacons is to show pedestrians where crossings are. I do not think the beacon has any effect on the motorist, who stops when he sees the studs across the road.
    Mr. Lipson: It is not proposed to do away with the studs?
    Colonel Llewellin: Certainly it is not proposed that we should do away with them.
    Sir Stanley Reed: Does not my right hon. and gallant Friend agree that these beacons are a very serious menace to pedestrians in the black-out, and that one simply bumps into them without any warning whatever?
    Colonel Llewellin: Yes, Sir, I have done that myself.
    Major Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether it is now proposed, in the light of present-day necessity, to remove all traffic-beacons so as to make the material available for war purposes; and whether, in view of the official pronouncement to the contrary on 2nd April, 1941, he will indicate the reasons then obtaining that no longer apply?
    Colonel Llewellin: It may be necessary to surrender traffic beacons as scrap for war purposes; if and when this is done, it will be done because that use of them will make the greater contribution to the need of the nation.
    Major Lyons: Was not the position the same last April as it is now, with the exception that labour costs were less than now, and may we take it that the statement made in April resulted from confusion of thought and is no longer applicable?
    Colonel Llewellin: It is a question of the amount of scrap that is needed in this country, and matters have considerably changed quite recently.

    RAILWAY TARPAULIN (WAR RISKS INSURANCE).
    Mr. Culverwellasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether, in view of the unsatisfactory position arising under the Railway (Sheeting of Traffic) Order, whereby the responsibility for loss of perishable goods through railway companies not sheeting traffic falls upon the owner of the goods without a right to claim compensation under his War Risk Commodity Insurance policy, he will consider making an Order extending the definition of King's Enemy Risks contained in Article 4 of the War Risks (Commodity Insurance) (No. 2) Order. 1941, so as to cover such a loss and remedy this unsatisfactory position?
    Colonel Llewellin: No, Sir. The terms of the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939, as amended by the War Damage Act, 1941, preclude such loss from being brought within the scope of the War Risks Commodity Insurance Scheme.
    Mr. Culverwell: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that traders are being compelled by the Government in certain conditions to use inadequately covered wagons, and that the Government have exempted the railway companies from all liability for damage caused thereby? Is not that a gross injustice to the traders, who are thus involved in considerable losses, and could not something be done to enable them to insure themselves against these losses?
    Colonel Llewellin: It is true that at one time we prohibited double sheets because of the shortage of tarpaulin, but the Sheeting of Traffic Order has now been annulled, and there is a far greater supply of tarpaulin than there was. I think that any damage which may have been suffered last winter will not be suffered this winter.
    Mr. Culverwell: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend suggest that, as a result of the greater amount of tarpaulin available, there will be no loss? Does he shelter behind that hope? What I am asking is that if there is to be loss the Government should bear it and not the traders, who in this respect have to suffer through no fault of their own.
    Colonel Llewellin: The goods are moved away from the ports, which may be extremely vulnerable target areas where goods might be destroyed. We have to get the ports cleared and we have to give directions that they shall be cleared. I am afraid we cannot give compensation to everybody who is given a direction by the Government in the national interest.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

    MR. J. C. RODGERS (TRANSFER TO OVERSEAS TRADE DEPARTMENT).
    Mr. Viantasked the Minister of Information what are the circumstances in which Mr. J. C. Rodgers was released from a post in his Department to undertake duties with the Department of Overseas Trade; what arrangements are being made to carry out the duties formerly performed by Mr. Rodgers; and what salary was attached to the post he filled?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): Mr. J. C. Rodgers was released at the request of the Department of Overseas Trade for transfer to that Department. The duties connected with the planning of the overseas publicity work of the Ministry, on which he was latterly employed, have been rearranged, and a part of them is now being carried out by an officer on the range of salary £600 to £800. When Mr. Rodgers occupied the post the approved salary was £1,000.

    MEMORANDUM "RUSSIA."
    Mr. Silkinasked the Minister of Information whether his attention has been drawn to a memorandum, consisting of seven sheets, summarising Sir Bernard Pares' Penguin "Russia," which has been circulated to persons on the panel of speakers and others by the meetings officer of London region; how many such memoranda have been circulated; and whether, as such a summary is valueless, he will take steps to prevent in future this wasteful expenditure of time, labour and paper?
    Mr. Bracken: This memorandum is in a form intended as background information for speakers who may be called upon to deal with the subject, and 450 copies have been distributed mainly for this purpose. Since it was prepared by Sir Bernard Pares himself at a time when his Penguin book on Russia was out of print, I cannot agree that it is valueless.
    Mr. Silkin: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the memorandum himself?
    Mr. Bracken: Yes, Sir, I have. It was prepared by the author, and I should have thought that he was the best judge as to its efficacy.
    Mr. Gallacher: Will not the Minister consider getting Comrade Harry Pollitt to prepare a memorandum or make a statement over the B.B.C.? Why does the Minister refuse to allow Harry Pollitt to make a speech over the wireless?

    WAR-TIME SOCIAL SURVEY.
    Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Information to what extent hon. Members of this House have availed themselves of his expression of willingness to accept their co-operation in obtaining information as to their constituents' views concerning matters dealt with by the War-time Social Survey; and with what result?
    Mr. Bracken: Only one hon. Member, the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) has availed himself of the offer. He obtained a considerable amount of information from his constituents which provided a number of pointers for the large-scale investigations of the War-time Social Survey.

    BROADCAST (SQUADRON-LEADER HECTOR BOLITHO).
    Commander Bowerasked the Minister of Information whether Squadron-Leader Hector Bolitho, who recently broadcast over the Columbia system on the sort of things that have become important to people in war-time Britain, did so by arrangement with, or with the knowledge of, the Ministry of Information?
    Mr. Bracken: No, Sir. The Ministry of Information was not concerned except in regard to security censorship, which was handled in the normal way.

    B.B.C. NEWS BULLETINS.
    Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Minister of Information whether he will see that the British Broadcasting Corporation com-

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    mence their news bulletins with a reproduction of the actual news of the day and refrain from any comments or criticisms until the end of the bulletin, and that in reading the news the announcer shall abstain so far as possible from undue emphasis upon particular passages?
    Mr. Bracken: The practice recommended by my hon. Friend is, generally speaking, the practice of the B.B.C. to-day. If the hon. Member has any special incident in mind to which he wishes to draw my attention, perhaps he will let me know.
    Sir L. Lyle: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that in the past there has been a most irritating amount of padding and detail in these broadcasts?
    Mr. Bracken: I dare say, but I am sure that greater knowledge and experience will produce something more helpful.

    MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Minister of Information what are the duties of the director of Empire propaganda; whether the appointment is full-time; what are the qualifications of Lord Dufferin for the post; whether other names were considered when the recent appointment was made; at whose suggestion this appointment was considered; and whether the Central Register was consulted?
    Mr. Bracken: The Acting Director of the Empire Division is responsible for the presentation of the British case in all Empire countries and for publicity in the United Kingdom and abroad about the Empire's war effort. The appointment is full-time. Lord Dufferin's qualifications are that he was for more than two years Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies; he was a member of the Indian Franchise Committee; and has been engaged on other official missions to the Colonies. In the course of a long search for the most suitable candidate for this post a large number of names were considered. Having consulted with my right hon. Friends, the Secretaries of State for the Dominions and the Colonies, I asked for Lord Dufferin to be temporarily released from the Army.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Is the Minister aware of the very considerable uneasiness felt everywhere in regard to this appointment, and will he also say how Lord Dufferin
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    can reconcile his full-time appointment with new work of a very exacting kind which has been given to him at the Colonial Office?
    Mr. Bracken: Let me explain first to the hon. Gentleman that for six months my predecessor and I tried to find a head for this important Department. I regarded it as almost scandalous that the Department had not a head. We went through a lengthy list of names and made offers for this post. I do not know why they were refused; perhaps those refusing did not think well of the Ministry of Information. I was strongly recommended, therefore, to take Lord Dufferin, in view of his great experience and intelligence, and I loaned him from the Army. Lord Dufferin did not want to be borrowed from the Army, but I persuaded him that it was his duty to take the post in the interests of the State.

  POST OFFICE.

    MAILS (ARMED FORCES, MALTA).
    Captain Stricklandasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the delay in the delivery of mails to and from members of His Majesty's Forces stationed in Malta; whether this can be expedited; and whether he will extend the privilege of airgraph letters to that service?
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison): Yes, Sir. The delays are due to the interruption of the normal routes. The matter is under constant examination in consultation with the other Departments concerned and all opportunities for the despatch of mails are used. There is already an air-mail postcard service at 3d. to members of His Majesty's Forces in Malta, and the question of introducing a similar service in the homeward direction is being considered. Technical considerations at present preclude the setting up of a separate airgraph organisation on the Island, but the matter is being kept under review and an airgraph service will be set up if other circumstances permit.
    Mr. Mathers: What is the normal time of transit for the postcard service?
    Mr. Morrison: The service works in conjunction with the Service Departments. I could not give details of the times, which may vary greatly.

    AIR-MAIL (GIBRALTAR).
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Postmaster-General what number of days is required for letters to reach Gibraltar by air-mail?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: Correspondence on which air-mail fees have been paid should reach Gibraltar about 10 days after posting. There are, however, recurring difficulties about air capacity for mails on this route, and I regret to say that this time is frequently exceeded.
    Sir A. Knox: Is the average time about 10 days?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. It has been as short as five days and as long as 20 days, but 10 days is the best average.

    ROYAL PARKS, LONDON (ALLOTMENTS).
    Mr. Silkinasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is aware that there are more than 300 applicants for allotments in the city of Westminster who are unable to secure a plot to cultivate; and whether, having regard to the urgent need to grow food, he will consider allocating land in Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens for allotments?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings (Mr. Hicks): The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. In regard to the second part, careful consideration has been given to the possibility of releasing further land for allotments, but, in view of the numerous other war-time encroachments and the great importance of maintaining the Royal Parks as open spaces for the pleasure and recreation of the public, it is not proposed to allocate additional allotment space. I should add that a quarter of the total area of Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens is allocated to war-time encroachments, of which 14 acres are allotments and 133 acres are devoted to defence purposes. The total area of all the Royal Parks in London is 5,370 acres and more than a half of this area is already alienated to war-time encroachments, including 340 acres for food production.
    Mr. Silkin: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the numerous appeals which are being made to people to take up allot-
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    ments? Is he aware that it is useless to make these appeals if no allotments are being provided?
    Mr. Hicks: I am aware of the requests which are being made. I can assure my hon. Friend that the proper use of parks has been sympathetically considered, but, under the circumstances, we feel that any further encroachment would not be justified.

  WORKS AND BUILDINGS.

    PRISONERS OF WAR CAMP (LABOUR).
    Mr. Wakefieldasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings why British workmen engaged on urgent war work were taken off that work to build a prisoner of war camp, of which he has been informed, when there were available numbers of Italian prisoners of war doing nothing who were able and available to build this camp for themselves?
    Mr. Hicks: As a civilian Department, the Ministry of Works and Buildings is not using prisoners of war for building work, the approved policy being that their use for this purpose should be confined to military Departments, such as the War Office, which can undertake both technical supervision and also the provision of guards and administrative services.
    Mr. Wakefield: Is not the Parliamentary Secretary's Department responsible to the War Office for building these camps in this way, and would it not be to the national advantage if prisoners of war were used for this purpose?
    Mr. Hicks: I can only say that as a civilian Department we are not using prisoners of war.

    GOVERNMENT WOODWORK CONTRACTS (SCOTLAND).
    Mr. McKinlayasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is aware that furniture manufacturing firms of old standing in Scotland are being refused schedules and specifications by his Department; who drew up the list of approved firms; and who was responsible for the exclusion of Scottish firms?
    Mr. Hicks: Government contracts for woodwork are now being placed only with

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    those firms whose retention in the woodworking industry is considered to be essential to the war effort. The compilation of the list, which of course involved the omission of English and Welsh as well as Scottish firms was undertaken by the Industrial Capacity Committee on which the main Government purchasing Departments are represented.
    Mr. McKinlay: Did consultations take place with any authority in Scotland as to who were the competent firms for carrying out Government work, and why are restrictions being placed on competent firms to quote for Government contracts?
    Mr. Hicks: A considerable surplus capacity exists in the industry, and much of it will have to be restricted. The services so released will be devoted to other war work.
    Mr. McKinlay: Can I have an answer to my Question? Has any competent person in Scotland, who knows Scotland and who is a competent contractor, been consulted in regard to the compilation of the list?
    Mr. Hicks: I can only say that each country, Scotland, England and Wales, was consulted by the Industrial Capacity Committee and that the names which have been reserved have been reserved after discussion.
    Mr. McKinlay: I shall have to give notice that I shall raise this matter again at the earliest possible moment.

    CONCRETE SHELTERS (ALTERNATIVE USES).
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is now in a position, in view of the difficulties which many local authorities experience in finding suitable premises for British Restaurants, for day nursery and for many other purposes, and in view, also, of the need in certain areas for increased dormitory accommodation, to release materials for surface concrete shelters capable also of being put to the aforementioned day-time uses?
    Mr. Hicks: It is doubtful whether surface concrete shelters would be suitable for the alternative purposes mentioned, but if any such proposals were approved by the Departments concerned and labour was available, I would give all possible
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    assistance in making available the materials required.
    Mr. Adams: Will the Parliamentary Secretary take my assurance that in the opinion of several local authorities on the North-East Coast the shelters suggested would be suitable, and can I assure them of his promise to supply the necessary materials?
    Mr. Hicks: It is the duty of the local authorities who hold that view to approach the Government Departments concerned to see whether they support them in that point of view. If they support them I will give all possible assistance in making available the materials required.

    TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING.
    Mr. Bossomasked the, Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether a Country Planning Bill is likely to be brought in soon, so as to make it possible to study post-war town and country planning at the same time?
    Mr. Hicks: I can assure my hon. Friend that the importance of planning town and country together is fully appreciated and that this principle will be recognised in the forthcoming legislation.
    Mr. Bossom: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether there will be a long interval between the introduction of the Town Planning Bill and the Country Planning Bill?
    Mr. Hicks: It is proposed that the Town and Country Planning Bills should be introduced together and that they should not be separated.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    CAMOUFLAGE.
    Sir John Graham-Kerrasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that instructions for carrying out the methods of war camouflage, known as counter-shading and dazzle, were promulgated to the Fleet in a General Order, D. 0239/14, on 10th November, 1914; that repeated representations were made by the author of these instructions that they were not being carried out accurately, accompanied by the offer of his voluntary assistance towards putting matters right; whether his offer was accepted; whether the person in question

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    was invited to serve on any of the advisory committees on camouflage or, alternatively, invited to substantiate his criticisms; and, if not, why not?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir Victor Warrender): The document to which the hon. Member refers was promulgated to the Fleet not as an instruction but for information, and it expressly stated that the trial or adoption of proposals made therein was left to the discretion of flag officers, etc., concerned. In consequence, the second and third parts of the Question do not arise. So far as I have been able to trace, the hon. Member was not invited to sit during the last war on any advisory committee on the camouflage of sea-going ships, nor was any formal invitation issued to him to substantiate his criticisms of the policy of the then Board of Admiralty. The reason for the former was that his views were not accepted by the Admiralty, and for the latter that, so far as merchantmen were concerned, a rival system of camouflage had been adopted and was considered satisfactory, while for His Majesty's ships the policy of the Board was not to interfere with the discretion of Commanders-in-Chief. I should like to assure the hon. Member that the proposals he made in 1914 were reviewed some time ago to ensure that in this war no useful idea should be left out of account.

    MERCHANT SHIPS (ARMAMENT).
    Mr. McNeilasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that many master mariners fearing dismissal because of keeping an untidy ship and for asking for additional crew, sail in convoys with their guns uncovered and without gun-watches; and what steps he intends to take?
    Sir V. Warrender: Very few reports of this nature have been received and there is every indication that the armament of merchant ships is normally kept at instant readiness. Shipowners have been requested to instruct their masters that the defensive organisation must have prior claim over all but essential ship's work. No further instructions are considered necessary, but if my hon. Friend will give me details of any particular cases which have come to his notice, I will have them investigated.
    Mr. McNeil: Did the Department take action in regard to the specific cases about which they were informed?
    Sir V. Warrender: Every case which is brought to our notice has to be investigated.

    AIRCRAFT (MOVEABI.E BASES).
    Mr. Purbrickasked the First Lord of the Admiralty why, as land air-fields are not always available, an efficient moveable base for aircraft has not yet been finally tested out and approved by the Admiralty?
    Sir V. Warrender: I an not clear what it is my hon. Friend has in mind. Development of the most efficient moveable base, namely the aircraft carrier, is constantly under review. Transportable runways for land use are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air.

    PENSIONS.
    Mr. Craven-Ellisasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the period of qualifying service required before an officer or rating of the Royal Navy can draw a pension; whether any conditions are laid down regarding conduct in either case; what percentage of Royal Navy officers and ratings did respectively comply with the conditions for pension in the last pre-war year for which statistics are conveniently available; and what percentage of officers and ratings at present in the Royal Navy comply with these conditions?
    Sir V. Warrender: The grant and assessment of Service pensions to officers and men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines are governed by a variety of conditions, including conditions as to conduct, which, I regret, cannot be compressed into a short statement. As regards the first and second parts of the Question, I would, therefore, refer my hon. Friend to the general regulations on the subject which appear in the Appendix to the Navy List for December, 1940; for officers on pages 45-63, and for men on pages 96-101. Of those who ceased service during the financial year ended 31st March, 1939, approximately 73 per cent. of the officers and 35 per cent. of the men were granted pensions. I am not quite clear as to the meaning of the last part of the Question, but if my hon. Friend will communicate with me, I will endeavour to furnish such information as he may desire.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: May I have a copy of the regulations to which my hon. Friend has referred?
    Sir V. Warrender: Yes, I will see that my hon. Friend gets one

    MAXIMUM NATIONAL EFFORT (COAL INDUSTRY).
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Prime Minister whether he has considered a resolution from the Fife, Clackmannan and Kinross Miners' Union on the question of the Government taking over all the resources of the country, including all property and wealth, sent to him by the hon. Member for West Fife; and what steps does he propose to take in the matter?
    Mr. Attlee: This matter was fully dealt with in the speeches of my right hon. Friends the Lord President of the Council and the Minister of Labour in the recent Debate.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Fife Miners Association is particularly interested in mining and that the mining industry is still kept on a voluntary basis? Is it not time that the criminal policy of the mine-owners was ended—
    Mr. Speaker rose—
    Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. In a situation of this kind, where the most terrible dangers are being faced, is it permissible that the mineowners should be tolerated in keeping the industry in such a condition? I have a right to an answer.
    Mr. Speaker: That is not for me to answer, but the hon. Member must use proper language in putting supplementary questions.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    WHISKY PRODUCTION.
    Sir Ralph Glynasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why no decision has been reached in regard to the production of malt and grain whisky; whether, in view of the importance of the export trade which is taking 50 per cent. of the total production, he will do everything to increase the quantity of whisky produced so that there shall not be an undue shortage for home trade, and that stocks should be distri-
    1522
    buted as widely as possible, having regard to the heavy losses already sustained owing to the concentration of large quantities at a limited number of ports; and whether, in view of the value of this trade from a national point of view, he will recognise the importance to distillers of being able to retain ample basic stock for blending and other purposes, which can only be arranged once the quantities of the raw materials have been laid down?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): I regret that I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave my hon. Friend on 26th November.
    Sir R. Glyn: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman recognise that the lack of decision on the part of the Ministry is causing great anxiety and is leading to distress among the employees of distilleries? Is it not reasonable to expect that some allocation should be made in the immediate future?
    Major Lloyd George: I am afraid I cannot add to my earlier answer, which was that I will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

    CARROTS (PRICE).
    Mr. Priceasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, whether he is aware that the wholesale price of carrots obtained by the' growers is now £6 per ton and the retail price 1½d. per pound, equivalent to £14 per ton, leaving a margin for the dealer and merchant of £8 per ton; and whether he will reconsider these prices with a view to reducing the margin?
    Major Lloyd George: Yes, Sir, I am aware of the margin between the ruling price to producers for carrots under the Government guarantee and the current retail price, but as in addition to the remuneration of the dealer and merchant who are referred to in my hon. Friend's Question, this margin has to cover all costs of and incidental to distribution from the growers railway station to the consumer I regard it as in no way excessive. I am unable to agree, therefore, that any reduction of the present margin is called for.
    Mr. Price: Is it not far too large a margin, considering the possibility of economies under war-time conditions?
    Major Lloyd George: The actual margins do not vary greatly from those existing before the war.

    SUBSTITUTES.
    Mr. Woodsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether in view of the extent to which the present shortage of supplies, both of food and goods, is being exploited by the production and sale of valueless substitutes, he will introduce legislation to increase the present maximum penalty for this offence, or take other measures to put an end to this practice?
    Major Lloyd George: The manufacture of food substitutes except in accordance with the terms of a licence granted by my Department has been prohibited since 27th October, and the sale of unlicensed substitutes has been prohibited since 10th November. As regards the second part of the Question, I am glad of this opportunity of informing the House that an Order in Council has just been made which increases the maximum penalties which can be imposed by the courts for the infringement of Orders made under paragraph (1) of Regulation 55 of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939. This Order applies so far as the Ministry of Food is concerned, not merely to substitutes but to offences against Maximum Price Orders, hoarding and rationing. The Order provides that in addition to the penalties prescribed under the Defence Regulations there may be imposed an additional monetary penalty equal to three times the value of the goods. The Order in Council also empowers any competent authority to make Orders providing for the seizure and the sale of any article in respect of which an offence is believed to have been committed.

    FRUIT DISTRIBUTION.
    Captain McEwenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why a distinction is drawn, in the regulations affecting the distribution of fruit, between the counties of Northumberland and Berwick, unfavourable to Berwickshire?
    Major Lloyd George: No unfavourable distinction is drawn between the counties of Northumberland and Berwickshire in the arrangements for the distribution of imported fruit. The latter county and the borough of Berwick draw supplies from
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    Glasgow. The rest of the county of Northumberland is supplied from Newcastle.

    BRITISH RESTAURANT, FROME.
    Mrs. Tateasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has yet instructed the Somerset County Council to hand over St. John's School, Frome, to the Frome Urban Council, in order that a British Restaurant may be established on those premises, in accordance with the need and best interest of the town?
    Major Lloyd George: It has been ascertained from further inquiry that it is not possible to extend the facilities for meals at St. John's School, Frome, because of educational requirements. Arrangements are therefore being made with the Frome Urban District Council to set up in another part of the town a British Restaurant, and as there are no suitable premises available a Nissen hut is being supplied. In all the circumstances I consider this to be the most satisfactory solution to the problem of providing the additional facilities for meals required at Frome.
    Mrs. Tate: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the claim of the Somerset County Council that these premises were needed for educational purposes is merely a flimsy excuse to prevent them being handed over to the Frome Council, and is not the resultant expense simply made necessary by the reactionary attitude of the Somerset County Council?
    Major Lloyd George: I am not in a position to express an opinion about the Somerset County Council, but the hon. Lady is aware that I nave no power to interfere. My information is that this accommodation is required for educational purposes, and obviously if this is so, and it is possible to have an alternative site, the proposed solution ought to be carried out.

    RETAIL AND WHOLESALE PROFITS (PUBLICATION).
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will publish periodically through the Press or otherwise a list of representative foodstuffs showing the approximate profit made on the retail and wholesale prices, respectively?
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciate that the publication of such information would be in the public interest and would give some guidance as to profiteering which may or may not exist?
    Major Lloyd George: The hon. Member or anyone who wishes can go to the Stationery Office and get all the figures.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman agree that the whole public cannot go to the Stationery Office?
    Major Lloyd George: We cannot really arrange for publication on the lines suggested. All the prices are in the Orders, and anyone who is really interested can see what the margins of profit are.

    MILK DISTRIBUTION.
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that there is a growing feeling, in view of the shortage of supply of milk, that there is an undue discrimination in favour of the priority classes as against the rest of the community; and whether he will consider this aspect of the problem?
    Major Lloyd George: I am aware that the suggestion has been made in some quarters that the quantities of milk prescribed for the priority classes are unduly generous in relation to the supplies available to the ordinary consumer at the present time. I am not prepared to accept this suggestion. The priority arrangements were made on expert advice which took into account the varying nutritional needs of the different classes of the community. I would remind the hon. Member that large quantities of American condensed milk have been released for non-priority consumers and that milk powder is also available as a supplement to the liquid milk supply.
    Mr. Davies: Will the right hon, and gallant Gentleman read the documents that I have sent in by post supporting my contention?
    Major Lloyd George: I have read them and have taken the trouble to go into some of the calculations made, and I am sorry to say that they are grossly inaccurate.
    Mr. Mathers: What happens to the milk that is not distributed in schools on Saturdays and Sundays?
    Mr. Davies: Of course, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman understands that these are not my calculations?

    FISH (ICING).
    Sir John Mellorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food to what extent the quantity of stale fish offered for sale is due to the inability of distributors to afford to purchase sufficient ice, having regard to present maximum prices of fish?
    Major Lloyd George: There is no connection between the condition of fish now on the market and the amount of the trade margins permitted. I am satisfied that the margins allowed to distributors under the Fish (Maximum Prices) Order are sufficiently wide to cover the cost of icing to the full extent necessary to keep fish in proper condition.

    WHOLESALERS' OPERATIONS.
    Mr. Martinasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to the large number of firms through which foodstuffs now frequently pass between the manufacturer or packer and the retailer, each transaction involving an increment in price for the consumer; and what steps he proposes to take to bring this practice under control?
    Major Lloyd George: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on this matter to my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. McKinlay) on 2nd December, 1941.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

    ROYAL ORDNANCE FACTORY HOSTELS.
    Mr. Pearsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether he will consider subsidising "Royal Ordnance factory hostels, so as substantially to lower the present charge of 22s. 6d., rather than subsidising travel from long distances by amounts up to 24s. per week per person, thus inducing greater acceptance by munition workers of hostel accommodation specially constructed for them?
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The hostel charge for women operatives was reduced from 25s. per week to 22s. 6d. per week on 17th November. The question whether any reduction beyond this point is necessary or desirable must be considered in the light of experience. The question of modifying the present arrangement for assisted travel in respect of long journeys between home and factory is under consideration.

    HAULAGE INDUSTRY.
    Major Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (1) whether he is aware of representations made by the haulage industry that, where and when practicable, goods vehicles should be offered on release from service to the haulage industry when hauliers' applications had been recommended; how many goods vehicles have been released from service and disposed of to hauliers during this year; and how many have been sold to dealers respectively?
    (2) with reference to the vehicles disposed of by his Department this year by tender, how many of these were goods vehicles; what steps were taken to make the proposal public; and whether, in view of the need for such vehicles by the haulage industry, any notification of the disposal was given to the London Haulage Contractors' Association or the National Road Transport Federation or to what other representative body?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: I am not aware of the representations referred to in the first Question. Vehicles released from service usually require extensive repairs and are either reconditioned by the Ministry of Supply and released to the Ministry of War Transport for allocation to other Government Departments, or, under the arrangement made with the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, are handed over to the respective manufacturers for disposal either as scrap or for repair and sale to operators. After repair, the sale of such vehicles is controlled by the Agreement, a copy of which I sent to my hon. and gallant Friend on 9th October. Vehicles are sold only to operators holding certificates to purchase from the Regional Transport Commissioners of the Ministry of War Transport. Approximately 2,000 goods
    1528
    vehicles have been allotted to the manufacturers under this scheme, of which some have already been repaired and sold to operators. It would involve special inquiries to ascertain the number. Previous to the operation of the present scheme vehicles not considered fit for reconditioning by the Ministry of Supply were disposed of by tender and there was no restriction as to the classification of firms on the tender list. Approximately 400 commercial trucks and 600 commercial vans were disposed of by tender.
    Major Lyons: Was the tender to which the hon. Gentleman referred in the latter part of his answer made publicly, or was it a private tender? Is it true or not that these vehicles are sold to dealers and not to the trade, and that the dealers make a ring before the vehicles go back?
    Mr. Macmillan: With regard to the first supplementary question, I should like to have notice of it. As to the second, my statement covers it completely. We make our sales through the Association of Manufacturers.
    Major Lyons: Is the Association permitted to sell to whom it likes, namely, to a sub-agency dealing direct, or must it sell to the trade itself?
    Mr. Macmillan: I should like to have notice of that Question.

    EDUCATIONAL BOOKS.
    Mr. MacLarenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether, in view of the shortage of paper and strawboard supplies, he will grant priority for such necessary supplies to publishers of school-books and educational text-books as will meet their minimum requirements?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: Despite the shortage of paper and board, the allocations for book publishing are substantial, and I am not aware of any appreciable shortage of supply of books of the kind referred to.
    Mr. MacLaren: Is there not a number of complaints coming in from schools as to the bad condition of school books, and is there not an urgent demand for renewal? Also, may I remind the Minister of the difficulty facing publishers of very important university text-books?
    Mr. Macmillan: That, of course, is true for two reasons—the very heavy destruction of books last year and the comparative shortage of materials; but the allocation to books is higher than that to other classes of use.

    PERIODICALS.
    Mr. Garro Jonesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply what weekly periodicals, sold at 6d. or more per copy, have been allowed since the war paper supplies of more than the usual 22½ per cent. of their pre-war consumption; and what percentage each of these has been allowed in the first and second years of the war?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: Up to the present the allocations of paper have been made to a publisher for all his periodicals and not to the periodicals separately. The allocation was reduced in March last from 33⅓ per cent. of pre-war consumption to 25 per cent. and a further reduction was made in September to 22½ per cent. Information in the form desired by the hon. Member cannot, therefore, be given, but the supplementary ration for periodicals generally in the present rationing period amounts to less than 6 per cent. of the total quota.
    Mr. Garro Jones: In the event of the discontinuance by a publisher of one of his periodicals, is his allotment of paper proportionately reduced?
    Mr. Macmillan: The original system was that the allocation was made to the publisher, and he could use it among the periodicals that he owned as he liked. Under the new arrangement the allocation is made in respect of each periodical.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Will this new allocation be based on pre-war consumption or on the collective allocation that was first inaugurated?
    Mr. Macmillan: On the pre-war consumption.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Is paper issued to publications that have been banned?

    WAR FACTORY ADMINISTRATION.
    Mr. Neil Macleanasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply why in a certain ordnance factory a Reed Prentice vertical milling machine was installed 11 months ago and has never been used?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: This machine is one of three purchased for use pending the delivery of more suitable machines, and considerable use has been made of all of them. One more suitable machine was recently installed and if, as seems probable, it should prove that the machine referred to in the Question will not be required at the factory, it will be put to use elsewhere.
    Mr. Maclean: Is it not rather peculiar that this machine should have been standing idle for 11 months? The Minister has not denied that.
    Mr. Macmillan: My information is that that statement is incorrect. All these machines have been used from time to time and are now to be substituted to some extent by special-purpose machines.
    Mr. Maclean: The Minister says that this machine has been used from time to time; can he inform me of the different times when it was standing idle?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am not an expert on these matters, but I understand that machine tools are like golf clubs in a bag; you cannot play with all the clubs all the time. Some have to be kept all the time for appropriate purposes. Unless you have a special-purposes machine, it cannot be used continuously. This machine belongs to a type that is only occasionally used.
    Mr. Maclean: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his explanation of the machinery contained in Ordnance factories is hopelessly absurd?
    Mr. Macleanasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether he is aware that in the main shop of a factory, the location of which has been made known to him, two Pollard vertical drilling machines have been there for over nine months and have never been in use; and what explanation the management have given him of this idleness?
    Mr. Macmillan: The factory is planned for the manufacture of alternative types of ammunition, and the machines in question are provided to enable a rapid changeover of production to be made to meet altered Service requirements.
    Mr. Maclean: Does the hon. Gentleman deny that this machine was standing idle for nine months?
    Mr. Macmillan: I find it difficult to give a detailed reply without giving information which I prefer not to give. These special arrangements are made in order to make a rapid change-over from one form of shell to another. For that reason it is necessary to keep some of these machines in case we get a sudden demand for a different type.
    Mr. Maclean: Have I not already asked for a special inquiry into this factory as to the reasons why so many machines are standing idle, and has not the Minister refused the inquiry?
    Mr. Macmillan: My hon. Friend asked me to institute a special inquiry into this factory, and I refused to do it on the ground that we preferred to operate through the machinery we have set up with the trade unions and shop committees, which is now at work.
    Mr. Maclean: Is it not the case—
    Mr. Speaker: This argument cannot go on.
    Mr. Maclean: The information the Minister has given is inaccurate.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not know about that, but the hon. Member has had his reply.
    Mr. Macleanasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether he is aware that in an ordnance factory, the location of which has been made known to him, a Wicksteed billet-saw has been installed for ten months and has never been used; and what explanation he can give?
    Mr. Macmillan: I presume the hon. Member is referring to a Wicksteed 10-inch No. 2 Billet Cold Saw which was delivered in July, 1941, in advance of the balancing machines which are just arriving. The machine forms part of a special purpose layout and will commence operation as soon as the complement is complete.
    Mr. Maclean: Is it admitted that this machine has been standing idle for the period mentioned?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, it is continually happening when we are building new plant and collecting balancing plant from all over the world and have to deal with priorities for the factories and other needs. It takes several months to bring a complete plant into being with all the rival claims for machine tools.

    FACTORY (CLOSING).
    Mr. Thorneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply why a certain factory, making boxes for ammunition vital to the Army, has been closed down after he had agreed to the work being done to save shipping space; and what action he intends taking about the matter?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: The factory referred to consisted of temporary sheds erected on disused tennis courts. As a result of representations from the local district council, the firm concerned vacated the site and transferred their work to other premises where it is still being undertaken. There was no hold-up in production.

    BELISHA BEACONS.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether he is now in a position to announce the decision of his Department in regard to the removal of Belisha beacons.
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: In view of the large programme of scrap collections now being undertaken, it has been decided not to proceed at present with the removal of Belisha beacons.

    NIGERIA (RAILWAY DISPUTE).
    Mr. Dobbieasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies the cause of the lock-out of the Nigerian railwaymen in September of this year; what were the grievances which led up to the dispute; what were the concessions made to the men; whether the men are now satisfied; and what action was taken with the official who locked the men out?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): As the answer is rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    There was no lock-out in the technical sense, but owing to a misunderstanding of instructions by a subordinate official, the gates of the railway workshop were not opened on the morning of 29th September until about half an hour after the usual time. Earlier in the year the Railway Workers' Union made certain requests to

    1533
    the Railway Administration for improvements in their terms of service. The decision of the Nigerian Government on those requests was conveyed to the union on 6th May and was well received. There was, however, delay in the preparation by the Railway Administration of a detailed explanatory statement of the Government's scheme. Nevertheless that statement was, in fact, sent to the union a week before the scheme was due to become operative. The detailed decisions were rejected, primarily because they were not understood. At a mass meeting of all employees on 29th September, the improvements were carefully explained by the Governor, and work was resumed in full on 30th September. An explanatory statement by Government was issued to the men on 4th October.
    The revised terms of service, which have been received with much satisfaction, include the refund of loss of pay occasioned by the conversion in 1931 from daily to hourly rates of pay, the abolition of the hourly rate of pay, pay for public holidays, the normal working week to be 45 hours—eight hours on each ordinary day and five hours on Saturday—overtime at time and a quarter rates in accordance with the approved practice for the railway, arrangements for the appointment to the fixed establishment of the railway of skilled workmen in trades to which an apprenticeship is normally served, and improved conditions for apprentices.
    A special inquiry was held by the Attorney-General of Nigeria into the incident on 20th September. The Attorney-General reached the conclusion that no disciplinary action was called for in the case of any of the officials concerned. The Governor is in agreement with the Attorney-General's conclusion and my Noble Friend accepts the Governor's view.

    MALACCA (ELECTRICITY SUPPLY).
    Captain Gammansasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies what arrangements the municipality of Malacca proposes to make for the supply of electricity to the town and settlement of Malacca when the contract of the Malacca Electric Lighting, Limited, expires in April, 1942?
    Mr. George Hall: The Governor of the Straits Settlements has reported to my Noble Friend that on the expiry of the
    1534
    company's licence the Muncipal Commissioners, Malacca, intend to substitute a municipal supply.

    BRITISH HONDURAS (CONSTITUTION).
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the general demand in British Honduras for representative government upon the basis of adult suffrage; and whether his Department is encouraging and furthering this proposed constitutional reform?
    Mr. George Hall: No, Sir. My Noble Friend is not aware of any demand in British Honduras for representative government upon the basis of adult suffrage. He does not propose to take any steps in the matter at present.
    Mr. Adams: If I send the Minister details which have been sent to me in regard to this general demand, will he look at them?
    Mr. Hall: Certainly, Sir.
    Mr. Mathers: Is it not the policy of the Department to further efforts of this kind?
    Mr. Hall: It would be expected, if there were a demand, that the Colonial Office would have heard of it, but no demand has been made for this reform.

    RHODESIAS AND NYASALAND.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that members of the Legislative Council of Northern Rhodesia recently met the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia at Salisbury to discuss arrangements for a conference on amalgamation of the two territories early next year, such conference to consider a constitution for the territories, native representation and parliamentary machinery; whether the Governments of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland will be present or represented at the conference; and whether he can make a statement on this development?
    Mr. George Hall: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by the Undersecretary of State for Dominion Affairs on 9th December to his Question on this

    1535
    subject. That reply made it clear that the invitation from the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia was addressed to the unofficial communities of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland. The Governments of these two Territories will not be present or represented at the conference, nor in any way committed to any conclusions which may be reached at the conference.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Will my hon. Friend watch the development of this situation rather carefully, because this action is likely to arouse considerable feeling and disturbance in the areas concerned?
    Mr. Hall: This matter is of such great importance that my Noble Friend will keep a watch on it.
    Mr. Maxton: Did the Governor act in this matter with the approval of the Dominions Office, or on his own initiative?
    Mr. Hall: This matter is, of course, one for the Dominions Office. Southern Rhodesia comes under that Department.
    Mr. Maxton: Is not the Colonial Office interested?
    Mr. Hall: I would not for one moment suggest that the Colonial Office is not interested, but, as I pointed out in my answer, the Colonial Office was not represented at the conference and was not asked for any intervention in this matter.

  WEST AFRICA.

    CONSTITUTION.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies what consideration is being given to the question of constitutional changes in West Africa; and whether priority is being given to the Gold Coast?
    Mr. George Hall: As I stated in my reply to my hon. Friend's Question of 26th November, His Majesty's Government have constantly in mind the progressive evolution of self-governing institutions in all parts of the Colonial Empire. As regards the Gold Coast, the new Governor has recently assumed duty, and the question of constitutional development is one of the numerous problems which will receive his particular attention
    Mr. Sorensen: Does that imply that the Gold Coast will have priority considera-
    1536
    tion regarding questions of self-government or progressive government?
    Mr. Hall: No, Sir, there is no suggestion that the Gold Coast will have preference in this matter.

    COCOA CROP (PROFITS).
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies what proportion of the £382,000 profit derived from the sale of the 1940–41 cocoa crop through the Cocoa Control Board is being returned to West Africa; and to what social services it is to be devoted?
    Mr. George Hall: The profit of £382,000 to which my hon. Friend refers was not made by the West African Cocoa Control Board but by the Ministry of Food on its distribution of West African cocoa between 1st October, 1940, and 30th June, 1941. As I indicated to the House on 20th November, if, after setting off the loss made by the Ministry of Food on the purchase and sale of West African cocoa in the season 1939–40, the Cocoa Control Board shows a net profit at the end of its transactions from the cocoa season 1940–41 onwards, it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to seek Parliamentary approval in due course for an equivalent grant either to the West African cocoa producers or, in agreement with the Colonial Governments concerned, towards expenditure on purposes designed to be of benefit to those producers. That intention relates, however, to the net result of the Board's operations over the whole period for which it may operate and it would not be desirable to dispose separately of a profit made in any one individual year.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Colony likely to receive anything from this transaction, or will it get nothing at all?
    Mr. Hall: An increased price to cocoa producers has already been paid this year, and that increased price will cost, during the course of the year, between £600,000 and £700,000.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will that sum be taken from the possible profits?
    Mr. Hall: If there is any loss on the transactions at the end of the next year, a portion of these profits will be used for that purpose.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    CLOTHES RATIONING.
    Sir T. Mooreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the clothes rationing system, it is his intention in any way to regulate and curtail the contemplated New Year sales in various large West End shops?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): We are forced by war conditions to impose many restrictions upon traders, and I do not think that the further restriction mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend should be added. I cannot too strongly emphasise, however, that the public must exercise economy in purchasing clothing, bearing in mind that when their present stock of coupons is exhausted they will be unable to buy more clothing until the next issue of coupons is available in June.
    Sir T. Moore: I fear that my hon. and gallant Friend has misunderstood me. I asked whether it was the intention of the Department that all reasonable trade should continue, so far as was possible, under Orders arising out of the Defence Regulations?
    Captain Waterhouse: Certainly, Sir.
    Mr. Bossomasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will issue instructions for the honorary treasurers to squadrons of the Auxiliary Training Corps to be allowed to purchase gymnasium shoes for the cadets without giving up clothing coupons?
    Captain Waterhouse: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 9th December to my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay), a copy of which I am sending to him.

    WIRELESS SETS (VALVES).
    Sir L. Lyleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a number of radio sets in the country are unusable owing to inability to replace valves; and whether, as radio sets will be vital to Government action in the event of invasion, he will take steps to see that all radio sets in the country are kept up to date to the maximum extent?
    Captain Waterhouse: My right hon. Friend appreciates the importance of keeping the maximum number of wireless sets in commission, subject to the overriding claims of the Services, and hopes to ensure that a sufficient supply of suit-
    1538
    able valves will be available. The present production of most types of British valves should shortly be sufficient to meet the home maintenance demand, and the possibility of importing any necessary balance of valves of American types is under consideration.

    PERSONAL INJURIES (CIVILIAN) SCHEME.
    Mr. Woodsasked the Minister of Pensions whether unmarried dependants, living as wives of Civil Defence workers, can be placed on the same basis under the Personal Injuries (Civilian) Scheme, as at present provided under the War Service (Army and Navy) Scheme?
    The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 1st July to the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle), when I explained the reasons for the present arrangements and why, in the view of His Majesty's Government, no change in them was called for.

    COAL MINES (CLOSING).
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is satisfied that he has adequate powers to prevent the closing down of pits engaged in the production of coal?
    The Secretary for Mines (Mr. David Grenfell): Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Lipson: Has the Minister exercised these powers on any occasion?
    Mr. Grenfell: Yes, Sir. The Secretary for Mines has power, under the Defence Regulations, to issue an Order, and this has been done upon a number of occasions.

    IDENTITY CARDS (NORTHERN IRELAND).
    Dr. Littleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that eight men from Donegal, Eire, appeared recently at Londonderry Petty Sessions charged with failing to produce identity cards; and whether, in view of the number of such cases, he will go into this whole matter carefully for the purpose of conserving the rights of the working-classes in Northern Ireland,. which is a part of the United Kingdom?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative, except that I am informed the cases numbered seven. The issue raised in the second part of the Question is cognate to the subject of a Question by my hon. Friend with which I shall be dealing later.

    ALCOHOLIC LIQUOR (TREATING).
    Dr. Littleasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider promulgating a non-treating order, as in the last war, for the duration of the present war?
    Mr. Peake: Conditions to-day are very different from those obtaining in the last war, and my right hon. Friend knows of no present circumstances calling for such a measure as my hon. Friend suggests.
    Dr. Little: Does not my hon. Friend think that this matter ought to receive further attention, in the interests of our continued war effort?
    Mr. Peake: There is no evidence of an unusual amount of drunkenness in the country at the present time.

  BILL PRESENTED.
    WAR ORPHANS BILL,
    "to amend Section nine of the War Pensions (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1918, and for purposes connected therewith"; presented by Sir Walter Womersley, supported by Mr. T. Johnston, Mr. Ernest Brown, and Mr. Butler; and be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 7.]

    VOTE OF CREDIT (SUPPLEMENTARY), 1941 (EXPENDITURE ARISING OUT OF THE WAR).
    Estimate presented,—of a further Sum required to be voted towards defraying the expenses which may be incurred during the year ending 31st March, 1942, for general Navy, Army and Air Services, and for the Ministry of Supply, in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament for securing the public safety, the defence of the realm, the maintenance of public order and the efficient prosecution of the war, for maintaining supplies and services essential to the life
    1540
    of the community and generally for. all expenses, beyond those provided for in the ordinary grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 9.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Arthur Jenkins Indemnity Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill intituled "An Act to amend the Patents and Designs Acts, 1907 to 1939, as respects the extension of the term of a patent where the patentee has suffered loss by reason of hostilities, as respects the right of the Crown to use inventions and designs, and as respects arrangements with other countries relating to inventions and designs." [Patents and Designs Bill [Lords.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  NATIONAL SERVICE [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law as to the liability to National Service, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Labour and National Service, a Secretary of State or any other Minister of the Crown in consequence of the passing of the said Act."
  Resolution agreed to.

  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]

  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(General obligation to serve.)
    Mr. Rhys Davies: I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, to leave out "persons of either sex," and to insert "males."
    I move this Amendment for the purpose of deleting the reference to the conscription of women from this Bill and so that those of us who oppose this innovation may be able to raise our voices in protest against conscripting women, either for the Forces or for industry. So far as I know, this is the first time in the long history of this country that any conscription of women has ever been suggested,
    1558
    and I am not so sure that I am not right when I say that we are the first civilised country in the whole world to propose that women should be conscripted. These two factors must weigh with every Member of the House of Commons. We are actually taking the initiative in doing this thing. I understand that the Nazis themselves, who do not claim, as we do, that they are fighting for freedom, have attempted to conscript women in Germany and that the attempt failed. I hope the Minister of Labour will not mind my telling him that where the Nazis have failed to compel women, I cannot see how we can hope to succeed.
    It may appear strange that a man should move an Amendment of this kind when there are several women Members of the House. But the reason for that is obvious. Men have always held women in very much higher esteem than women seem to hold one another. I think that has been true throughout the ages. Let me, however, make one slight protest in passing before I come to the real issue. I have been in this House of Commons for many years, and I very much regret to see one thing happening during this war. I think I am right in saying that when this Government wants a policy adopted by the House of Commons, it first of all secures the help of the daily Press in conducting a campaign in its favour, and then, when it proposes that policy in the House, it assumes that there is a popular clamour for it. I think that is very dangerous in a democratic country like ours. Let me say something else on that subject. One could imagine, from the speeches delivered on this issue in this House, that there is a great demand for the compulsion of women and for this Bill, that there is so much enthusiasm that the people are clamouring to be conscripted on all sides. The simple fact, however, is that, if there was this tremendous enthusiasm for these proposals, the proposals themselves would not be necessary at all.
    Let me give the right hon. Gentleman one reason why he does not get married women to go into the factories and workshops. I know a professional man earning £520 per annum. His wife, who is childless, is a very patriotic woman; she goes out to work and earns £3 10s. a week. Out of that sum she pays about 35s. in Income Tax. Then, she and her husband have to pay for meals outside because the

    1559
    wife is not at home to do the cooking; the laundry is sent out, and in the end they find that the balance is so small that it is not worth her going out to work at all. That is one of the reasons why the right hon. Gentleman is not getting married women to work for him to the extent that he desires. I am very doubtful as to whether this proposal to conscript everybody has been brought in merely for the war effort. I have been a trade union official probably longer than anybody here, and I have an idea that there has been for a long time a demand among some industrialists in this country, even in peace-time, to tie down the working folk in the factories where they want them, to fasten them to a certain industry, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that as well as I do. I am not willing that he should become the means whereby the industrialists and the financiers of this country should tie men and women to certain industries, and I therefore want to make a protest on that score.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: The hon. Member raises a very serious point. I think he ought to give some justification for it.
    Mr. Davies: I will do that in due time.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: General statements do not interest this House.
    Mr. Davies: If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, he will be very well informed on this point.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: Let us have the information now.
    Mr. Davies: Under this Measure women will be conscripted for the Auxiliary Fighting Forces and for industry as well. We are told, of course, that none of them will be called upon to use lethal weapons unless they express a desire to do so. I would like to warn the Committee about what happens here from time to time. It is one of the curious habits of this House of Commons that first of all the Governments ask for volunteers—as in the Home Guard—and when they have volunteered compulsion begins to be enforced. I venture to say that if the Committee agrees to bring women in touch with the Armed Forces and if this war lasts very much longer, compulsion will ultimately be used and women will be found right in the trenches in due course. That is
    1560
    where we are going in connection with this Measure.
    This Bill, of course, means industrial conscription. The right hon. Gentleman made a promise once that he would never introduce industrial conscription in this country. I am sure of one thing: if the people of this country want to conduct this war to a final issue, as is suggested here, they will fight it very much more effectively as volunteers than as conscripts, and I have reason to say that because I have had experience of the right hon. Gentleman's handling of labour problems since this war began. First of all, he said to ex-miners, "I want you to register, because we want you back in the pits." They registered, and after registration he directed them back to the pits. There are scores of men in my Division who believe to-day that they have two enemies in this world—Hitler and the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.]—It is no use interrupting; compulsion is all right until it comes down to you personally. Some of these ex-miners had been out of the pits for years, now working in other industries for £8 or £10 a week, and the right hon. Gentleman instructs them to go back to the pits at £3 5s. a week. Try that on yourselves, you who laugh at my remarks. Then— and I speak with some feeling—if they will not return to work in the pits, the right hon. Gentleman sends some of them to gaol. When we pass this Measure, if the women will not carry out his directions, I think we shall find that there will be provision to send the women too to goal. I therefore want to say that I object to this Bill, especially as it relates to women.
    Now, I come to the main argument that I want to put against conscripting women. I happen to have been for the last 36 years connected with the administration of sickness, maternity, disablement and kindred benefits, and it is my job to try and study the course of events statistically and socially in this country. There is an old saying that the politician usually looks forward to the next General Election and that the statesman looks to the next generation. Let me ask the House to follow me to the crux of the problem as I see it. This Bill has as its background what I shall call the population problem. Our country is faced at last with what are termed the vital and inexorable facts of population. Where do we stand? In

    1561
    1870 the birth-rate was 35 per 1,000 of the population, in 1890 it had declined to 30, in 1920 it had been reduced further to 22 and in 1940 it was only about 15 per 1,000.
    We have established clinics and welfare centres, and we pay maternity benefit too. All those social services have been established in order to induce an increase in population. An hon. Member says "No," and I will accept it therefore that we have done all that to keep alive those who are born. I should have thought the House of Commons would have regard to what is the first essential of our civilisation, the birth-rate, but here we are today talking of conscripting the mothers of the future. Unless I am mistaken, the more we document, ticket, dragoon, drill and compel the mothers of the future, the lower still will fall the birth-rate. I feel almost sure of that. I am as British, I suppose, as anybody here—more British than the English, because we Welsh arrived here first.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Steady.
    Mr. Davies: I say, therefore, that the Committee has to face this very important problem of population. There is, of course, in spite of that a slight increase in the population of this country.
    Dr. Russell Thomas: Is it not a fact that the social services as a rule tend to reduce the birth-rate rather than to raise it?
    Mr. Davies: Yes, but when the National Health Insurance Bill was introduced in 1911 all the arguments used in favour of it were the other way round.
    Dr. Thomas: I am not concerned with what was said then. We are wiser now.
    Mr. Davies: What the hon. Gentleman says may be true in relation to this country, but it is not true in relation to other countries.
    Captain Cobb: Surely the hon. Member realises that men are being conscripted and that it takes two to make a baby?
    Mr. Davies: I do not want to detain the Committee too long, because all these things I say are very unpopular in wartime; the truth is taboo on all occasions when war takes place, so I am not dis-
    1562
    turbed in the least. Some women Members have been clamouring for what they call equality with men. I was once, strange to say, on the platform with Mrs. Pankhurst when we were talking of equality for women with men. She was a Manchester woman, and I lived there. The two main arguments for equality then were these: first, that if women got equality, they would be more merciful in the administration of the law. That was a strong argument then, but, unfortunately, my experience does not bear it out. I do not think women are more merciful than men. It is not sex that matters; it is the type of man or woman who is turned into a magistrate. The next argument was that if women were allowed to come to Parliament, they would prevent war, because they are more peaceful-minded than men. That has not proved to be the case either. I agree with equality for women provided it elevates both sexes; but in this connection we are degrading women, especially in relation to the Fighting Forces. And when we talk of equality, let me remind the House that there has always been a distinction in the law of this country between men and women, and women in this House would never argue in favour of abolishing that distinction. For example, we do not allow women to work in coal mines, and the law in relation to factories discriminates in favour of women, and that is all to the good.
    Let me come to my final word. The Minister of Labour wrote this in a pamphlet in October, 1940—he has heard me quote it before, but it is worth while quoting again:
    "The Prussian always acts on the assumption that the human being is an automaton, that he can be organised, ordered and driven and reduced to the condition of a robot."
    He seems to have changed his mind very much since then, because in proposing this Bill he is going further, probably, in reducing our people to robots than has ever been attempted by Dr. Ley, the Labour Minister in Germany. We are told that we are fighting Prussianism and Nazism. Nobody detests those "isms" more than I do, but I dislike my country contracting the disease that it is fighting abroad, and that is what we are doing in this Bill. I ask the House to bear in mind one thing above all from what I have said, namely, that the time has arrived when British statesmen in declaring wars ought

    1563
    to have regard to the continuance of the British race. Statisticians have warned us that in 20, 30 or 50 years' time the population of this country may be reduced almost to 20,000,000. It is in the interests of the mothers and the children of our race that I am moving this Amendment.
    Mrs. Hardie: I have much pleasure in supporting the Amendment. I am not objecting to women being ordered to undertake necessary work under the present powers which the Minister possesses. Already he has powers to direct women to particular forms of work. What I am urging in supporting this Amendment is that women should not be compelled to go into National Service. I have maintained, and I still maintain in spite of all that is said about our asking for equality, that military discipline and Barrack and camp life are not suitable for women and are not required; In his speech yesterday the Minister of Labour made rather a misleading statement. He said that he was bringing in this Bill because he thought there had been a good deal of indirect compulsion on women to go into the Armed Forces and that it was better to apply compulsion direct. I think that statement is not quite worthy of the present Minister of Labour, whom many of us hold in high regard, because he knows that although an official may try to persuade young women to undertake National Service they have a right at present to refuse to go into National Service, and, therefore, there is no sense in saying that. Women are not fools, and they learn the position quite clearly. Therefore the fact that an official tries to bully them does not affect them very much when they know that behind them they have the power to refuse.
    I represent a big industrial area. I have not had very many complaints from the women about their treatment by Employment Exchange officials. I have had one or two, which have been put right, because the women are intelligent and know they do not need to go into National Service unless they desire. What we are asking in this Amendment is that the position should be left as it is. The Minister can direct women to go to necessary work, and he should not have this power to force them into the Forces.
    1564
    This compulsion is to apply only to single women. Personally, I do not wish to try to push any more women into this category, but under the Bill there is nothing to exclude married women; it is done only by regulation, which can be withdrawn if and when it suits the Government. I remember the old Derby scheme in the last war. One section is taken, and that section clamours for other sections to be put in the same position, until everyone is included. You will not find that it will take very long, if the Government need young married women, for them to take them.
    Looking at the matter from the point of view of morals, someone accused me of being Victorian—I I think it was the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Commander Fletcher). I have received from two men a most indignant letter about his speech, in which he suggested I was Victorian. It is true that I was born in Queen Victoria's reign. I can assure the hon. Member—and I think everyone on this side will bear me out, as will the Minister of Labour—that so far as young working-class women were concerned we worked in shops until 11 o'clock on a Saturday night. We were turned out when public houses were emptying. In those days I have walked home through badly lit Glasgow streets in which were drunken men and prostitutes. I learned quite early to look after myself. You must not assume that in Queen Victoria's days women were protected. You hear a lot about the long hours women are working in factories and how splendid it is. In my days that was their normal life. They worked for 12 hours, for six days a week, in factories, workshops and mills, and in the shops we worked 80, 90 and 100 hours a week. I never had a half-holiday or a Saturday afternoon until I was married. I never had much leisure until I got a good man to look after me. I am not one of the people who think that men are worse than women or that they are going about trying to destroy them. I never suggested that. I say that if you take masses of men away from womenfolk and give them no emotional, cultural, intelligent life, train them to be healthy animals, as is necessary for a soldier, and throw some attractive girls among them, the girls will not be too safe. I am not stressing that point now.
    Whereupon, the GENTLEMAN USHER of the BLACK ROD being come with a Message, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair.
    Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.

  ROYAL ASSENT.
  Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
  The House went; and, having returned—
  Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:
  1. Arthur Jenkins Indemnity Act, 1941.

  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL.
  Again considered in Committee.
  [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  Mrs. Hardie: I was making the point that camp life is unsuitable for women. It is rather significant that, as the Minister showed yesterday, the men in the Forces generally have been emphatic that they would not allow their wives to go into the Services, although they were ready to allow them to go into industry. These are the men who know the conditions of camp life. The Minister gave that objection of theirs as a reason why he does hot include young married women. These men must have some reason for their objection. Nobody takes much notice of the speeches I make, but since I made my last speech on this subject I have been flattered by receiving quite a fan mail, although the speech was not very widely reported. I have had about 90 letters supporting me and only one letter abusing me. The writer of that letter suggested that the women should turn out and do war work, and leave the other jobs for men of over military age. The men in the Services, admittedly, became so threatening that the Minister dare not put their wives into the Forces. Now we learn that women can be forced to go abroad. The Minister said there would not be any difficulty about that, because more women have volunteered for service abroad than were needed. If that is so, why apply compulsion at all?
  It seems to me that this will go on and on, until the women will be in the
  1566
  trenches. Personally, I do not think it is any worse for a woman to be killed than for a man. In fact, when the blitz started, I thought it rather a good thing that the civilians had to be in the danger zone, as well as the soldiers, because I remember the complacency of civilians who were doing well in the last war, as a result of which the war dragged on and on, while the soldiers suffered. But I do not see any necessity for putting women into the fighting line, and I think military life quite unsuitable for them. Why put women under military discipline? If you want clerks and cooks for the Army, why not engage them in those capacities, and leave them free from military discipline? Usually, it is the older women who are cooks. The younger women in domestic service are usually kitchen-maids, or something of that sort: it is not until later that they are promoted cooks. Why do you not engage women to do that necessary work without forcing them into the Armed Services if you do not want them to take part in the war? The other day I saw a rather strong looking woman with three stripes on her arm marching little white-faced shop girls along the street. I thought, What foolery, if women are not to go into the battle. We understand the need for discipline in the Army, because you have to train men, so that when they are told to charge, they will charge or do whatever they are told. There is need for discipline there, but what need is there for discipline for the girl who is to do typing and that sort of thing?
  I am not approaching this question, as far as it can be avoided, from any antiwar attitude. I realise that once you are in a war you cannot afford to lose it. Some of us would like to see some effort made to stop it, but we do not suggest that we ought to adopt methods to be defeated in a war. Therefore, I am not trying to make any unnecessary difficulties, but asking only that women should be left in the position in which they are today to take up necessary work that they feel capable of doing, and that they shall not be forced into the Armed Forces and put under military discipline. In supporting the Amendment, I hope that it will either be carried, or accepted in some degree at least by the present Minister.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: The two speeches to which we have

  1567
  listened seem to me to justify and do credit to the democratic system under which we are working. They were speeches made by hon. Members who regard this question as a matter of conscience, and they have expressed their views with great courage and frankness. They are to be congratulated upon the strength of the case they have put to the Committee, especially so sitting as they are on the Opposition benches addressing one of their colleagues opposite. I notice that the hon. Member for West Houghton (Mr. Rhys Davies) takes rather a different line from that of the hon. Lady. He apparently objects to all manner of conscripted service, whereas the hon. Lady confines her objection to service in the Armed Forces. The difficulty they are perhaps in is that they do not quite appreciate, first of all, the immensity of the need for additional manpower—and by that I include woman-power—and secondly, that it is not after all our fault that this claim upon women has been made. All of us would agree that it is the last thing we would desire to oblige women to serve in the Armed Forces, but if you are compelled by a gentleman like Hitler to fight to the last ditch, then there is no alternative but to call up every available hand in the country to serve its needs.
  Therefore, holding that view, I cannot associate myself with their general aim, but it would be wrong if this Committee were to reject this Amendment without appreciating that there is in the country a very general and very strong objection to the calling-up of women at this time in this compulsory fashion. What accounts for that objection? I think there are two reasons. One of these has been expressed to me in a letter, typical of many I have received, from the father of a girl who is due to be called up. He says:
  "It is to my mind a scandalous thing that women should be compelled to do soldiers' work while there are thousands of men hiding in sheltered jobs in factories, in the Police Force, in county council offices, in town council offices and in Whitehall itself. Apart from this there are thousands who have offered to serve, men who have never been called up and who are still anxious to serve."
  There is no doubt that that view is very generally held. They say, "Why do you go to the considerable step of compelling women to join the Armed Forces when there are thousands of young men in the
  1568
  country who are to our own knowledge deliberately, many of them, dodging the column?" The Minister of Labour has made it plain in his speeches that men previously sheltering under block reservations are now to be regarded each one of them separately, but I think he would assist the country and the Committee in considering this new Measure if he would develop a little further exactly what is intended there. Does he really mean business? Is he really going to bring up these men—and they are many—who are dodging their duty? Does he intend to ensure that all of us will be called upon to do his or her full share of service to the State? Given that assurance, the nation would look much more favourably on this Measure.
  There are other reasons. The Prime Minister has said that the call to the armed Services for women would be a call mostly to the A.T.S. Something in the region of 150,000 girls are said to be wanted. I am glad that the Joint Undersecretary of State for War is present because he really ought to take some part in this Debate. There is no doubt at all that the A.T.S. has a bad reputation in the country at the present time. I am sorry for that, and I am going to show in a moment that it is not my own personal experience; but it is nevertheless a fact. The hon. Lady the Member for the Combined English Universities (Miss Rathbone) referred to it in her speech, and it has been referred to many times. The conditions in A.T.S. camps are in many cases exceedingly bad. The physical condition of the girls themselves, in a great many cases, is bad, the whole Service has got a bad name, and there is no good in this Committee pretending to close its ears to the stories that are going round. It is infinitely better to face the music now, recognise the facts and get something done.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for War (Sir Edward Grigg): My hon. Friend talks about the stories that are going about, and apparently gives credence to them. I can only tell him that any story that has been brought to me with any possibility of investigating the truth of it —that is, with sufficient detail as to time and place—has been investigated. None has been substantiated and the great majority have proved to be absolutely false. If he will give an example of the

  1569
  stories of which he is now relying upon, I will have it investigated at once.
  Mr. Stewart: I am glad the hon. Gentleman has intervened. I hope sincerely that he will develop this point. I want to say that my own experience of the Army was not in line with the general stories that go about. It is right that I should tell the Committee of that experience. In the Aldershot Command, where I served for some months, a large number of girls were employed in the A.T.S. They were doing very good work. They lived in good surroundings. Their morale was very good, and they had a high reputation throughout that Command. In the Army, as elsewhere, one often sees into a man or a woman's heart more directly in the social atmosphere that follows the day's work. There were dances and socials in the evening, and the A.T.S. girls were there. Officers and men of the Army and officers and girls of the A.T.S. mingled together under the best possible conditions, and I never saw a case of bad behaviour on the part of any of these girls. While that is my experience—and I pay tribute to the high morale of these girls—it is no good the Under-Secretary saying that these rumours are without foundation. We hear in this House and in the Lobbies the reports of medical officers about the conditions in the camps. There is not a constituency of which I have ever heard that has not this general but very definite impression that the A.T.S. is not the sort of Service to which a nice girl goes.
  Sir Percy Harris: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Stewart: My right hon. Friend has apparently had the same experience. The fact is that nice girls in all grades of society have come to us and said, "We are anxious to do our bit, but you know what one hears about the A.T.S." The War Office must do something drastic about this. It is not good enough for the Under-Secretary to say that individual complaints put to him had no substance. These complaints have substance, and my right hon. and gallant Friend must take drastic measures to remove in actual practice these unfortunate conditions and persuade the public by his own action that these conditions do not, in fact, exist.
  Miss Eleanor Rathbone: Would not my hon.
  1570
  Friend agree that there is also a very great responsibility on every individual who hears these stories, which may or may not be true, to get evidence of the time and place and all the rest of it? Otherwise, it may be a case of "Give a dog a bad name and hang it," which may be doing great injustice to the Service.
  Mr. Stewart: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I do not know from my own experience of any single case— [Interruption]—but I assert, and I have the support of my right hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), that throughout the country there is a wide feeling of distrust. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is it based on?"] I cannot say on what it is based, but I do say that it is something real, something that the War Office cannot ignore. They must face it.
  Personally, I am all in favour of the compulsory method as applied to women. I have always been in favour of it, and I will tell the Committee why. It is because it takes from women a responsibility for a choice that should never have been placed upon their shoulders. I have always felt it unfair, for instance, that when constant appeals were made to girls month after month to serve in some capacity, some have responded and others have not. Some have done so because their conscience has urged them on to do something that others need not do. Often a girl has come to me and asked what step she ought to take. The miners too have said, "If the Government want us to go back to the pits, we will go back, but tell us what to do." The Minister of Labour, as lately as October, said that in handling women you must proceed gently and that if he introduced mobilisation and made them go to an Employment Exchange, where they were given cards and treated in a hard official way, "the whole scheme would be a complete breakdown." Now he says he realises that women want to be told what to do and where to go and that he is sure they will respond. He is quite right. He is right now, but he was wrong before.
  The people have come to the stage when they realise that this war effort has assumed proportions so vast that no one of us alone is able to make a decision as to where his or her duty lies. We have come to the

  1571
  conclusion that in this immense, unprecedented effort—about which only the Government know all—it is for the Government to direct us into occupations which are likely to be most useful. Therefore, I support my right hon. Friend in proposing compulsion on men and women alike. But I ask the Minister to give us an assurance that all able-bodied men liable for military service shall in fact be called for military service and that the military service to which women will be called will in future be well run, will secure for its girls the best possible conditions, and that the War Office, in particular, will take measures to restore to the A.T.S.—which is a fine organisation— that high tradition with which it started the war and without which it cannot possibly secure the loyalty of the girls of this country.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): My hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Davies), who moved the Amendment, laid it down quite plainly that he wanted to remove the obligation on women both for industry and military service. I suggest that that speech ought to have been made in June last year, because I am introducing no new powers at all so far as concerns industry. My hon. Friend's speech—he is a pacifist—ought to have been made under the shadow of Dunkirk, but he did not rise then to make it. At this stage, if I may say so, we are aware of the shadow of the cloud which has moved further but is still dark. There are still greater problems to face. The speeches we have listened to have been largely Second Reading speeches, and most of the points made I have already dealt with. Therefore, I have to ask for a rejection of this Amendment. I still take the view that I am putting women coming into the various Services into a position which is far more rational and on a juster basis than hitherto. When this Bill emerges from Committee, I think that the public, especially mothers and fathers, will be far more satisfied than they are at the present moment.
  It was suggested by the Mover of the Amendment that the Government arranged for the Press of the country to carry on a campaign so that we could say that public opinion was behind us.
  1572
  Well, I do not think anybody can say that the Press is a particular friend of mine. Even the Press I helped to create and build has not given me a lift since I came into office. They have dug me under the ribs in their leading articles every morning, but I do not complain. It keeps my democratic blood flowing warm, but if anybody calls it friendship, then I have misunderstood exactly what form friendship ought to take. With regard to the speech to which we have just listened, I think it is regrettable that these references should be made to the A.T.S. In the course of his speech, the hon. Member said, in effect, "I have heard all these statements, but I have not got a single case myself." Why is there, concerning the A.T.S., the assumption that because women are drafted somewhere, immorality is bound to ensue? That is a lot of unutterable nonsense. Throughout history war has produced very difficult sexual conditions, but as one who has watched these things with great care and had great experience in the last war, I say that the conduct of our young people during this war has been cleaner than in the whole history of our country. Some very ridiculous things have been said.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: May I explain that I was not for one moment thinking of morals? I was thinking about the physical conditions in which they live. I think the morals are excellent.
  Mr. Bevin: The physical conditions are capable of improvement. In the general Debate, I announced that, in conjunction with my right hon. Friends the Service Ministers, consultations are going on for the purpose of trying to arrive at a proper standard such as we have on the munitions side. But it must always be remembered that, in dealing with the development of a great man-power problem, there is bound to be a great deal of improvisation. I wish that hon. Members would think about present problems of social conditions in some relation to peace time conditions. Some hon. Members have made speeches which seemed to suggest that I ought to have remedied everything in 12 months. Before I was a Member of the House, I tried to get many things done, but I was not listened to. The slums of England were not created by this war. One of our great troubles in this problem has been the

  1573
  question of accommodation, which has had to be provided at a time when the demands on the building industry have been colossal, as regards materials and all other things. I know something about trying to arrange for priorities for this thing and that thing, and I assure hon. Members that in trying to work out how to do the best thing for the war effort in regard to accommodation, it has been a question of trying to settle a whole range of things in which there have been short supplies. The position is now getting easier on the building side, and we hope to make considerable improvements.
  Mr. Silverman: May I say that I am in full sympathy with everything that my right hon. Friend has said, and I do not think that any useful purpose is served by giving any credit to a lot of backchat which has no evidence to support it; but at the same time, it remains true that in the public mind a great distinction is drawn between the W.R.N.S. and the W A.A.F.S. on the one side and the A.T.S. on the other, and that my right hon. Friend himself said in his speech that there are waiting lists in the first two Services and a shortage in the third. Does he not agree that this calls for a very searching scrutiny by his Department?
  Mr. Bevin: I was about to come to that, if my hon. Friend had not interrupted me. That is a point which has been made, but as a matter of fact, I do not think the accommodation for the W.A.A.F.S. is better than that for the A.T.S., and in many respects, it is not as good, especially in the isolated parts. One of my first actions, in association with the Service Ministers, was not in respect of an A.T.S. camp, but a camp run by the Royal Air Force in Wales, which I visited early one Sunday morning. I am not complaining about what they were doing, because they were doing the best they could, but I thought there was room for improvement, and my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) will remember that immediately I went to him and talked over with him that morning the improvements which I thought could be effected. There is one thing which I feel is necessary in the A.T.S., and we are working at it now. The Cabinet have agreed that, as Minister of Labour, I shall act as a kind of agent for the Service Departments and create hostels, with proper accommoda-
  1574
  tion, near the camps, within a reasonable distance, so that when the women have 24 hours' leave they can go to the towns, to the pictures, and not have to tramp back to the camp at night. I shall graft that on to our general welfare work at the Ministry of Labour. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) for acknowledging that at least I have tried to do something on the welfare side for men and women since I have been in office.
  Another thing about the A.T.S. which must be remembered is that the demand in their case is greater. One cannot deny the difference in attraction. The Navy is our first line of defence, and has always had the first attraction in this country. It appeals naturally to our people. That is a psychological matter. Moreover, the Navy is in a better position than the other two Services in that the Naval women's Service is largely centred on the great ports, and is therefore more static and more convenient. The transfer of work from men to women in the Navy is far easier and better done than is the case with the Air Force, where there are aerodromes and so on in isolated places. The W.R.N.S. are largely in a social environment, and that is a great attraction. In the case of the Air Force, perhaps the answer is that it is fighting. The great attraction there is that there has been tremendous activity in the air from the Battle of Britain onwards. The girls want to be in the Air Force, where there are activities taking place. Since Dunkirk, the Army has been very largely stagnant.
  There has been criticism of the organisation of the A.T.S. But why perpetuate that criticism? Why not acknowledge that in the last six or 12 months, since we got to grips with the matter, the A.T.S. has been improved out of all knowledge, in uniform, equipment, and everything else? But there is still room for further improvement; indeed, I hope that improvement will never stop, because it must go on in all walks of life. Let me give hon. Members an illustration of the kind of thing that arises. My Department received a letter—it would be unfair to mention either the district or place— which seemed to come from quite responsible people, telling us that there was a large number of cases of venereal disease, that there were several women

  1575
  pregnant, and so on. The War Office agreed with me that there should be an independent investigation. That investigation took place. There was not a single case of venereal disease at the camp, and there was one woman pregnant, and she had been married five years. That is the sort of thing that comes to us. I suppose that story may have gone round the Lobbies, casting reflection on the girls. One gets a little tired of this sort of thing, and I hope hon. Members will stop it.
  I am then told that the result of this Bill will be that I shall be more ruthless. Nothing of the sort. I will tell the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) that I do not intend to be more ruthless. I want things to be on a better footing than they have been. I want the women to know what their rights are, and under this Bill, they do know that. Instead of acting in any ruthless manner, I want things to be on a better and more organised footing than they have been hitherto. Therefore, I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment, because if it were carried, it would strike at the roots of the Bill.
  Mr. Stephen: I listened to the Minister with interest, but I do not think that he made out a case in answer to the Mover of the Amendment. I desire to support the Amendment wholeheartedly, and I hope that the Mover will take it to the Division Lobby. I disagree entirely with the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart). He stated that the Minister was wrong on the previous occasion when he opposed conscription of women. I think that the Minister was right then and that he is wrong now. The Minister told the House on a previous occasion that to mobilise women would be a course which was sure to break down. He took the more gentle view then, but he has now changed his attitude and has given us no reasons for this change. Possibly the forces which have weighed on him have been reactionary forces behind the Government. A campaign was conducted in the Press, to which the Mover of the Amendment referred, for the conscription of women as a step which was absolutely necessary. The hon. Member for East Fife mentioned the case of two young women, one of whom felt that her conscience inspired her
  1576
  to join the A.T.S. while the other remained at home. Why should the conscience of one young woman be made the general rule for all? The woman who stays at home has a conscience and has acted just as conscientiously as the woman who joins the A.T.S.
  There are so many considerations which have to be taken into account, and I am sorry that, when the Government Motion was before the House, there was not an opportunity to present the Amendment for which I and my friends were responsible. We put down a direct negative to the proposal, and, when the right hon. Gentleman said that the time for the pacifists to indicate their dissatisfaction with the principle involved was on a previous occasion, I would reply that the pacifists in this House find it very difficult to get an opportunity to put forward their case. It is very difficult for them to get their Amendments called and to find an opportunity to express their point of view. The question which arises in connection with this proposal to conscript women is whether or not there is any real need for it. It is a tremendous departure from the traditional practices of this country and of other countries, and it is a step which would have been regarded with horror a few years ago. It would have been regarded with horror that any community which considers itself civilised should ask women to go to the battlefield and employ lethal weapons. But the question is whether there is any need for it. The Minister says that the proposal is put forward so that the women can free men for other duties. If the light hon. Gentleman needs man-power, he should first of all go to his Service colleagues and see whether the man-power they already have is being adequately used.
  I wonder whether the Minister saw the article in the "New Statesman" last week, in which a private contractor stated a few of his experiences in connection with the Army. In one case it took three Army lorries, 15 soldiers and two N.C.O.s to carry five tons of material from one place to another. The writer of the article stated that a private contractor would have needed only one lorry and one man. Here is a case where 14 men are being uselessly employed by the Army. The article gives a more glaring example than this.
  The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Clifton Brown): These illustrations are interesting,

  1577
  but we cannot discuss the utilisation of man-power oh this Amendment.
  Mr. Stephen: I was giving this illustration only to show that there is no need for the conscription of women. If the Service Departments used the men they already have, there would be no need for this proposal. The Minister complained about the criticisms which have been made in regard to accommodation, and stated that he was doing his best to improve matters. One of the difficulties which face him is to obtain joiners and carpenters. I received a letter to-day from the Joint Under-Secretary of State for War, who tells me that there is a superfluity of carpenters and joiners—it was in reply to a letter that I sent on the question of transferring a man who is a joiner in the Pioneer Corps to the Royal Engineers.
  Sir E. Grigg: Quite apart from the Royal Engineers, there is need for carpenters and joiners in most of the units in the Army.
  Mr. Stephen: Perhaps I have not made myself clear. I received the letter from the other Joint Under-Secretary who deals with these questions. I do not say there is no need for joiners and carpenters, but in this case, because there is a superfluity of them in the Royal Engineers, this man cannot be transferred, although he was so promised when he was put into the Pioneer Corps. The Minister says that we cannot obtain suitable materials to provide adequate accommodation for the women in the Services, but, if the powers which have already been taken were properly used, there would be no need for this Bill. Another reason why the Minister finds difficulty in getting women to undertake industrial work is the unjust treatment that they receive in not getting equal pay for the same work as men. The Government will not listen to that.
  The Deputy-Chairman: That is a matter which is entirely separate from the Amendment.
  Mr. Stephen: It is surely relevant to point out that there is no need to compel women to undertake National Service when the real difficulty in getting them is that the Government will not see that proper conditions are given, so that they are not put in an unjust position as com-
  1578
  pared with men. It is a most revolting thing, among other revolting things, that the Government have done. The Minister was much wiser when he made his previous statement, and I am surprised that he has allowed himself to be rushed into this position of industrial conscription for women. I appeal to the Committee to support the Amendment and let the Government understand that they are not prepared to allow women to be compelled to join the A.T.S. or the W.R.N.S. or the W.A.A.F.S., or go into private industry to provide profits for the profiteers.
  Miss Ward: I feel that I ought to apologise for intervening after the right hon. Gentleman's statement, but I want to say how glad I am that the Government propose to reject the Amendment. If they, with all the facts and all the knowledge at their disposal, feel that the war effort would be forwarded by including women in National Service, the vast majority of women will be behind them in their verdict. We wish to win the war at the earliest possible opportunity, and we would far rather be told what directly will assist in achieving that object. I can assure him that women are prepared to do their share, however difficult it is. We are grateful that a great many of the difficulties with regard to our problems of woman-power have been considered and looked into since the right hon. Gentleman's Department has been responsible for finding the actual recruits for the Services and for industry.
  As the question of the A.T.S. was raised, I should like to say I understand that a definite pledge has been given that the necessary accommodation for. women in the Services and particularly in the A.T.S. will in fact be forthcoming. I should like to pay a tribute to the very fine work that has been done by women of all ranks in the A.T.S. It is most regrettable, from the point of view of those who have served loyally in the Service from the beginning, that this unfortunate controversy has been allowed to develop. I am afraid the War Office has to bear the brunt of the blame, because it is only when the right hon. Gentleman and the Under-Secretary have really become involved in the finding of recruits that the War Office has been in the least responsive outside to the difficulties and problems which have been raised privately from time to time by Members of the

  1579
  House; and although I rather regret that the hon. Member opposite has raised the question to-day, I think the War Office must accept the responsibility, because it has allowed this to develop and, instead of properly organising the A.T.S. and meeting the difficulties which the women themselves have put forward, it has always said pleasantly that everything was going on perfectly when we knew that there were conditions which required altering. I am grateful to the Minister and to the Under-Secretary for the very firm line that they have taken with the War Office. I regret that it was not taken very much earlier, and then all these accusations, some of them most unjust, which have been hurled at the Service would have been avoided. I hope they will learn a lesson from what has been said and will deal with facts when they come up and not say that everything is quite wonderful when they know that the conditions require investigation.
  If there is to be this enormous expansion, some of my friends in the Service want to be satisfied that the pledge which has been given by the Service Departments, particularly the War Office, is capable of implementation, because with the increase in recruiting during the past few months many of the senior officers in the A.T.S. have found themselves in a difficulty when they have been called upon to find increased accommodation even from the trickle of recruits which came in during the voluntary recruiting campaign. If you are suddenly going to put into the Service a very large number of women, the problem of accommodation becomes very acute. I want to know that the Minister is satisfied that the War Office will be able to implement its pledge. I am extremely sorry to say that the War Office is not so good at implementing its pledges as some other Departments. We do not want to feel that the Minister of Labour is just a Department for providing bodies for the War Office. We have a responsibility, and I hope the War Office is satisfied that the necessary accommodation and amenities will be available for these girls. There is a vast amount of good will in the country from responsible, representative women, from parents and from the Service itself. All they want to do is to help. They want to do what they can because a happy and contented A.T.S. will reflect credit on the Army and
  1580
  on the country and will materially benefit the war effort. I wonder how many conferences were held by the War Office in the days before the new director took over with the responsible A.T.S. officers in the country.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid that the number of conferences held by the War Office cannot be connected with this Amendment.
  Miss Ward: I apologise for being out of Order, but when one speech has been made I thought it would be helpful to develop the subject, but I will not pursue it. I hope that the conferences that are held about this matter at the War Office will be productive of more good than they were in the past. I do not think that the men or women are opposed to the general idea of a proper organisation of man and woman-power. I think that that is incontestable and that the country welcomes the opportunity of a better organisation with the one ultimate object of victory. I am glad that my right hon. Friend has rejected the Amendment and I hope we shall be able to record our vote against it.
  Mr. Sorensea: I rise to support the Amendment. When the hon. Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward) declares that she is sure the majority of people are behind this Bill and that they welcome the extension of conscription to women, it is only her own opinion and judgment and is neither more nor less accurate than the opinion and judgment of the hon. Member for Springburn (Mrs. Hardie). The truth is that all of us are continually assuming that what we desire is what the public want. We would do well to hold ourselves in reserve in some of these matters. I think that most people in the country at the present time are mentally confused. Undoubtedly they want the war to be won, but, on the other hand, I am certain that many are extremely apprehensive about this method of winning the war, both as to whether it is the best method and if it is the best, whether the price to be paid is not heavier than they at first assumed.
  Many of us on this side of the Committee know that the Minister of Labour has brought forward this Bill with the greatest reluctance, only feeling that it is necessary in the circumstances. I am sure that in ordinary times he would not bring forward wholesale comprehensive con-

  1581
  scription and that he is recommending the Bill because he believes that, however undesirable it may be in peace time, it is necessary in time of war. I am certain that he is anxious to provide every possible amenity for the women who will be involved. Therefore, I deprecate the allusion made by another Member in the discussion to one of the women's Services. We have all heard stories concerning not merely the A.T.S. but every other organisation in the country, but one could tell stories about boys' schools and girls' schools, and even about this House. It does not do to bring these rumours into the House and so give them greater publicity, although I am sure that the motive of the hon. Gentleman who made the allusion is a good one. A number of parents may be alarmed for the first time by statements made in this discussion without proper clarification. I do not think there is any reason to assume that girls organised in camps are worse than boys organised in camps. They are very much about the same either way. Some may go off the rails, but even if they were not in camp they might do so. It is strange that we hear so little about men in the Fighting Forces who may be involved in irregularities. As soon as we recognise in these days that men and women are much the same and that there are bad sheep in every flock, but that for the most part they are ordinary people, the better it will be for the community as a whole. Therefore, I deprecate any suggestion that because girls are organised in camps it puts a stamp upon them.
  I hope that in any organisation that will be evolved to meet the tremendous inflow of woman-power no more severe discipline will be imposed upon them than upon the men. They are as entitled to their measure of freedom as the men, and if they use it unwisely, that applies also to men. In this respect I plead for equality in discipline as well as in other matters.
  Mr. Bevin: It is normally understood that the discipline of women in these Services is much lighter. They do not want equality of discipline.
  Mr. Sorensen: That illustrates the fact that, although we may believe in equality of sacrifice, it does not mean that the women are similar in all respects. Because of that, I would further urge
  1582
  that it does not necessarily follow, because there is political equality, the two sexes have to be treated the same. I am glad that the Minister of Labour has made that clear. This Bill, so far as woman-power is concerned, is a logical extension of a principle which has already been accepted. I wonder why we draw the line and say that it shall not apply to married women. Logically it should be pushed further, and in course of time—
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams): That question will come under another Amendment later.
  Mr. Sorensen: I should have thought it came within the general Amendment we have moved.
  The Temporary Chairman: I was only trying to prevent the hon. Member anticipating the discussion that will come on a later Amendment so as to safeguard any discussion on that Amendment.
  Mr. Sorensen: I appreciate your desire to safeguard us in that respect. While I cannot pursue the reflection that this Bill will logically involve other women besides unmarried women, I think I am entitled to say that when we talk about equality, and say that this Bill secures it, as between the girl who is already serving and the girl who is not serving, it falls to the ground on examination. If all the women in the country were conscripted many inevitably would be in a more fortunate position than others, and, therefore, this Bill does nothing to serve the question of equality. It may, I agree, serve the question of war-like efficiency from the national standpoint, but to argue that it supports the principle of equality does not bear a moment's examination.
  Let us realise that this Bill, so far as woman-power is concerned, registers what is in fact a revolution. In other words, for the first time in our history, and I think in the world, we are now saying that not only is there this implicit principle of service to the State, but that it shall be rendered in the way that the Government lay down. Whatever we may think about it, it means that this is the beginning of what may be a profound transformation of the whole position of men and women in their relationship to each other and to the State. Some view it with grave apprehension. Others, on the other hand, are glad because they view it as an expression of the feminism

  1583
  in which they have always believed. Whether we greet it apprehensively or otherwise we must recognise that history is being made. We have registered for all time, and I do not think we shall ever go back on it, the beginning of a new, though not necessarily a better, world. Our task is to make the very best of it both during the war and afterwards. It is a revolution, and in one sense I could perhaps welcome the Bill although I support this Amendment. I welcome it only in the sense that it is pressing home to numbers of citizens in this country, and particularly to the women, the tremendous political and social obligations that are involved in this matter of conscription and war. Those who have been in political activity are aware that a number of women unfortunately drift through life, or, on the other hand, settle down in a purely domestic atmosphere where few considerations arise about life beyond the confines of the home. The Bill will force them to face other issues and obligations. The Bill in that way may be of service ultimately, however much it may temporarily seem to be otherwise. I believe that out of the Bill at least that consolation might be secured and I hope, meanwhile, the Minister of Labour will do his best to see that the women who are conscripted are given the very best treatment. He is in the honoured position of initiating this grave and tremendous revolution, the implications of which are beyond our present ken.
  Mr. Woodburn: I have been requested on behalf of my hon. Friends the Members for Springburn (Mrs. Hardie) and Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]
  The Temporary Chairman: I am afraid I shall have to put the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  Mr. McKinlay: I beg to move, in page I, line 6, after "sex," to insert:
  "who have attained the age of eighteen years and are."
  Hon. Members have been placed in a difficulty in connection with the registration of boys and girls between the ages of 16 and 18 years. I use the term "boys and girls" deliberately. Nothing about
  1584
  it appears in the Bill, although mention of it is made in the White Paper, and hon. Members are wholly unaware of the procedure to be followed. The Minister of Labour is a very keen student of psychology, and I would ask him why this thing has been mixed up in a National Service Bill. It passes the comprehension of the ordinary man in the street. To create misunderstanding is the simplest thing in the world, while to dissipate misunderstanding, once it has been created, is a most difficult task. Those of us who spend our week-ends in our constituencies know that the impression created among the mothers is that advantage is being taken of the position in which they find themselves to compel them to register their children. That is a wholly wrong impression, but it has been created. It would have been much better if this proposal had been made the subject of a short Bill by itself.
  What power has the Minister, after the boys and girls have registered and education authorities have checked up on their activities, to direct any boy or girl to any specific organisation? I may be told that the Minister has no such power. If so, why include this proposal in the Bill? No-one desires to create misunderstanding outside, and I least of all, but, as I read the situation, the age might as readily be 14 years, so far as the Bill is concerned. We could not get an opportunity yesterday to discuss the matter upon the Second Reading, because it was not contained in the Bill, and it seems strange that, under our complicated parliamentary procedure, the ingenuity of some Member can now place an Amendment upon the Order Paper for the Committee stage, to permit us to discuss the matter which is not in the Bill. I intend to take the earliest opportunity of explaining in every village and hamlet in my constituency how simple it is to safeguard the interests of any young lad or young woman, because this proposal is not in the Bill. I was never much of a student of Maskelyne and Devant, but if the Under-Secretary of State for Air were here perhaps he would be able to produce something out of the hat to enlighten us. I wish to get some assurance from the Government that, if they cannot accept an Amendment to insert an age, they will at least state with some clarity that an early opportunity will be given to discuss the matter. I am a member of the Glasgow Education

  1585
  Authority. I do not know whether that is a thing to boast about nowadays, as it may be unpopular, but I know the difficulties of education authorities—
  The Temporary Chairman: We cannot at this stage go into the difficulties of education authorities.
  Mr. McKinlay: I must bow to your Ruling, Mr. Williams, but I would point out that I am supposed to be discussing something which is not in the Bill. A White Paper has been published, which apparently deliberately contains this proposal, but which cannot be referred to during the discussions on the Bill. I am looking for the Minister's authority to do something which he says in the White Paper he is going to do.
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member cannot go into that question now.
  Mr. MacKinlay: I have had some experience of your honoured self, Mr. Williams, in your capacity as a Back Bencher, and I believe that the position which faces me would baffle even your ingenuity, and that is saying something. Would I be in Order in asking the Minister of Labour how he proposes to proceed?
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member is, by moving his Amendment, obviously asking the Minister some questions, and he thereby gives the Minister a chance to answer.
  Mr. Bevin: Why not give me the chance?
  Mr. McKinlay: Yes, I will give the right hon. Gentleman the opportunity. It is very strange. I do not speak very often in this House, and if I were to labour every time under the difficulties from which I labour now, my contributions to our discussions might be more fugitive even than they are. May we have a guarantee that, when the young persons of from 16 to 18 years of age are registered, the Minister has power to direct them to an organisation, or to provide accommodation? Can we have a guarantee that, the N.A,A.F.L, with its undoubted influence, will provide canteens for the boys and girls when they get there?
  I am speaking now as a man with three sons—two serving and one about to go, and I am saying the same kind of thing that thousands of parents are saying: you are stripping the household, and start-
  1586
  ing with the babies. They get it into their minds that there is something sinister behind it. I do not believe youth wants to be organised and drilled. Youth wants to be carefree; in other words, it wants to be youth, and unless the Minister can clear up the misunderstanding, unless assurances can be given, it will undermine the morale of mothers from one end of the country to the other. If the Government cannot accept the specific words of the Amendment, could not the Minister at least give us an undertaking that we shall have an early opportunity of discussing the whole question of the registration of these boys.
  Mr. Bevin: If this Amendment were carried, it would confuse the situation. Under proviso (a) of the Clause liability to National Service is limited to the liability under the National Service Acts, under which the age for military purposes is 18. I have power under those Acts to direct into industry at any age. We obviously do not do it before school age, but the present Act says that the Minister of Labour can direct any person—from one to 100, I suppose, so that in that regard we meet the hon. Member for Holborn (Sir R. Tasker), who referred yesterday to people of 80. The general provisions do not refer to any ages at all so far as service outside military service is concerned, but for military service the age is as defined in the National Service Acts, namely, 18. I hope I have made that clear.
  If this Amendment were carried, therefore, the situation would be made more difficult, because under proviso (c) it is laid down that there is nothing in this Bill prejudicial to any powers of direction which we have up to the present moment. That relates to industry. I would like to thank the hon. Member for trying to get this situation cleared up. The point about registration is not in the Bill at all, as the hon. Member has said; it is only dealt with on the Motion that was put before the House the other day. I have power at present to register anybody; it would have to be done by Regulation, and if a Regulation to register people at 16 is made, all that I as Minister of Labour can do is to register them and then hand the results of the registration over to the local education authorities. It will be their duty to encourage the youth of our country to join some voluntary organisation. If

  1587
  they do not join, there will be no compulsion. I hope I have made that quite clear. Because of the Chairman's Ruling, I cannot now enter upon a defence of that proposal; that must be raised in another way, and perhaps those hon. Members who know the procedure of the House far better than I do and who are far more ingenious than I am will be able to find a suitable moment. After all, the hon. Member who put this point was an official of my union, and if his ingenuity was not greater than that of the general secretary, he ought not to have been in the job. I can rely, I am sure, upon his finding a suitable moment for an elucidation of exactly how the scheme will work. I want to satisfy the parents of the country that there is no intention to apply compulsion between 16 and 18, but there are valid reasons, which must be advanced on another occasion, for our wishing to take this step to help the young people.
  Mr. Evelyn WalkdenMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the scheme of organisation is likely to be subject to an Exchequer grant for equipment, etc.?
  Mr. Bevin: I must ask hon. Members to raise these points when the matter is before the House and not on this Bill, in view of the Chairman's Ruling.
  Mr. Martin: I think the right hon. Gentleman has relieved the anxieties of those of us who are concerned in this matter, but I would like to ask whether registration could be postponed until such time as the local education authorities are really ready to take action. People wonder what is behind this, and if a lot of children are registered and then the education authorities do nothing about it because they have not the means of dealing with the situation, parents will be given unnecessary anxiety, which might be avoided. If registration could be postponed until the education authorities are ready, it would be a good idea.
  Mr. Bevin: Certain obligations were placed upon local authorities in the general Act dealing with youth. Immediately I took office the Board of Education, I think quite appropriately, became as it were the agent for all Departments dealing with youth. It would have been silly to set up
  1588
  a lot of other Departments. There are probably too many now, and nothing will be done except in consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education. At the present moment we are only indicating our intentions. Obviously there would have to be consultation with the local authorities, although I would like to say that we cannot wait for the most backward of them.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: Will the Minister explain whether the registration he has indicated will be taken as registration for military service when the age arises?
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir.
  Mr. Stephen: I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is accepting the Amendment?
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. The Bill is much clearer.
  Mr. Stephen: I have listened with great interest, and it seemed to me that the obvious thing for a Minister wanting to get his Bill would be to accept an Amendment like this. He tells us that it does not mean anything with regard to those under 18, that there is nothing sinister involved, that no further compulsion is contemplated. The Minister suggested that he really had powers to send children under five to work in the workshops if he thought it necessary, and that under other powers he had absolute authority over everybody in the community. But evidently there is some misunderstanding in the minds of hon. Members in connection with this, and I cannot understand why he should not accept the Amendment. Why should he not make it clear by accepting these words, since this Bill is only going to have dealings with people who are over 18 years of age? Why should there be this general liability on every member of the community within this Bill, unless there is in the mind of the Minister and of the Government future contingencies in which they might need them? Frankly, I am very suspicious, because of what has happened with regard to the pledge given to the 18's about their being sent out of the country. The Prime Minister has said that compulsion will not be applied in forming the Churchill Youth. While that may be so to-day, two months hence there might be another little Bill to do that. Many of us

  1589
  would feel a certain amount of reassurance if the Minister would accept this Amendment. I wish to press him to give some reason why he should not.
  Mr. Bevin: I wish to make it quite plain that if I accepted this Amendment, it would not make for clarity nor afford any additional protection. The Bill imposes nothing other than is clearly implied in the National Service Acts for military service, while it leaves the obligation for industrial service exactly the same as under the Emergency Powers Defence Act and Defence Regulations, 1940. It draws a clear distinction between the Forces and industry, which is what the mover of the Amendment desires. If I accepted this Amendment, it might cause confusion. The Bill as drawn is much clearer.
  Mr. McKinlay: I accept the Minister's explanation and beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. Mander: I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, after "sex," to insert "being British subjects."
  In moving this Amendment, I understand that the discussion on this and a subsequent Amendment that I have put down will be taken together. They really raise two rather different points. The first is as to the meaning of the words,
  "all persons of either sex."
  That would really mean whether they are British subjects or not. I wish to know whether the Government really have in mind the intention to take compulsory power covering, not only Allied subjects, but Swedes, Swiss, Americans, North and South, who may happen to be in this country. It would appear to be undesirable and wrong to put powers of that kind in the Bill. The Minister said yesterday that it was intended to deal with the question of Allied subjects in this country, as a result of negotiations with the Allied Governments, through the introduction of an Allied Forces Bill. On that point I would say that there has been a very remarkable delay, extending over a period of more than a year, in bringing in a Measure of that kind. We have been told from time to time that negotiations are going on, but they seem to hang fire. I think we want some definite clarification from the Government as to whether they
  1590
  propose to proceed by means of an Allied Forces Bill or whether they are going to make use of the powers which, under the wording of this Bill, as I understand it, they would be enabled to do.
  The second point is this: I propose that the words "for the time being in Great Britain" should be omitted, in order that the Government should possess powers to deal with British subjects who may be in other parts of the world. I have in mind a certain number of British subjects in America at the present time. There has been a good deal of criticism on that point. I have no doubt that many British subjects of military age are doing first-rate service in the United States, and there can be no question of their being asked to return. That cannot be said of all. I am proposing that the words should be omitted so that the Government may have the power to deal with those persons. It may be said that they are outside jurisdiction and that the Government have no power to bring any pressure to bear upon them. I venture to think that is quite a wrong view. There are all sorts of pressure. There are the withdrawal of the British passport, the withdrawal of British nationality, the taking-over of all assets in this country of such an individual by the State, and it could be laid down that if the individual ever comes into jurisdiction, he will be liable to prosecution. I have no doubt at all that if the Government possessed powers of that kind, many British subjects would be induced to come back here to do their duty. It may be said that the position has, to some extent, been altered by reason of the fact that the United States are now at war with Japan. I hope shortly that they will be at war with Germany and Italy too, juridically at war; they have actually been at war with them for a long time. It was the case in the last war that, when America came in, British subjects were brought back. These are points of real importance about which I wish the Government to give a definite answer. Do they really want to take power over all aliens of every nationality according to the wording of the Bill? Will they not take power to deal, at any rate, with British subjects, whether in this country or not?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Assheton): I should like to deal first with the ques-

  1591
  tion of the liability of aliens in general. I quite appreciate the point which the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) has made, but I would remind him that, as far as civilian work is concerned, already there is power, under Defence Regulations, to require persons of alien nationality to undertake it, and therefore we do not desire to have the powers which we already possess limited in this way.
  Mr. Mander: This is neutral, also.
  Mr. Assheton: That is so. There are certain duties with regard to Civil Defence, for example, which it is desirable that the Government should have power to impose upon aliens, although it is not likely that such powers will be exercised in the case of neutrals. On the question of those young men who are sheltering abroad in various countries, I am sure that every Member of the Committee will sympathise with the object which the hon. Member has in mind, but if we adopt the method which he suggests for bringing it about we shall, in fact, by so doing, give up the very power we already have over aliens resident here. For this reason, it is not possible to accept the Amendment as the hon. Member put it down, but I can assure him that very careful consideration is being given to the matter and to the possibility of achieving in some other way the object he has in mind. Recent circumstances have put a slightly different complexion on the matter, and I would ask the hon. Member to be good enough not to pursue that particular point on this occasion.
  I would like to say a word about the liability of aliens for military service. It has been stated in the House on several occasions that it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation to authorise the conscription of Allied nationals, but the Government have always taken the view that this must be done only after full consultation with the various Allied Governments. The Committee will appreciate that this matter is rather complicated, and that it has required very careful consideration. That has taken a long time, but a communication has now been sent to the Allied Governments outlining the views of His Majesty's Government. A communication from the Allied Governments must now
  1592
  be awaited. Owing to the necessity of consulting these Governments, it would not be possible to deal with this subject in the present Bill, even if it were appropriate to do so, but a proposal will be laid before the House as soon as the Allied Governments have come to an agreement with us and we are in a position to bring forward such a proposal.
  Mr. Harvey: What is the position of neutral and technically enemy aliens as regards military and civilian service under this Bill? I am not quite clear about that after what the hon. Member has said.
  Mr. Assheton: As far as civilian service goes, it is quite clear that the words
  "all persons of either sex for the time being in Great Britain"
  mean what they say "all persons of either sex." There is one other point which I should like to make. The words which the hon. Member suggests:
  "being British subjects"
  would involve us in constitutional difficulties with the Dominions, which the hon. Member appreciates.
  Mr. Mander: I quite agree I mean Dominion subjects.
  Wing-Commander James: I understand that at a later stage provision is to be made whereby all aliens in this country will be brought into line with those of enemy origin. Will there be discrimination in that respect? Take the cases of a Czech subject and a German subject. Why should compulsion be applied to aliens of Czech origin and not to friendly German subjects?
  Mr. Assheton: The point is a simple one. We already have power to direct them to industrial work. I do not think the War Office has ever asked for power to conscript enemy subjects.
  Wing-Commander James: If they are friendly?
  Mr. Assheton: I do not think it would be desirable.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. Barr: I beg to move, in page 1, line 20, at the end, to insert:
  "(c) nothing in this Act or any Defence Regulations shall impose any liability to service in the Armed Forces of the Crown on any person registered conditionally or unconditionally in the register of conscientious objectors."

  1593
  The purpose of this Amendment is to prevent any repetition of punishment where punishment has been already undergone. During the last war we heard much about "cat-and-mouse" treatment. Certainly, that has not been so prevalent during this war, although there have been cases that might be so described. We wish that men who have attained the status of being registered as conscientious objectors, either conditionally or unconditionally, shall not be called up under this Bill. Such calling up would, I think, lead to further trouble, and would not be profitable to the State.
  Conscientious objectors receive double-edged treatment. They receive, first, a privilege. I may say that, when the statement on the subject was made by the late Prime Minister in the House, I think it was generally accepted as being in its broad outline generous treatment for conscientious objectors. I cannot say that in the courts, or before the tribunals, that statement has been followed in the same broad and generous spirit. But I am not blaming the administration here or—far from it—the Act itself. On the one side, the conscientious objector receives a certain privilege. Secondly, on the other side, he suffers certain penalties, which sometimes prove very severe. As everybody knows, there is a great difference between the attitude of appeals tribunals in different parts of the county. There are men whom I have known all my life who have a conscientious objection if there is such a thing, and yet have not succeeded, but have been put into the Army, and under martial law suffered severe penalties. They undergo, in addition, humiliations of a social kind. We claim that they have gone through the mill, and that they ought not to be put through it again. In language which is common in Scotland, and which is known even on the Front Bench, they have "tholed their assize."
  Perhaps I am entitled to speak on this subject because during the last war I preached a sermon on conscientious objection and published it as a pamphlet, and I think I took a broad view of the subject. I maintained that there were conscientious assentors, as well as conscientious objectors. I referred to the recognition of conscience that there has been, even among military men, which sometimes showed itself in an obstinate
  1594
  and unyielding way. I quoted words from Lord Roberts, himself the leader of the military forces in this country. This was his tribute to conscience, particularly at a time when certain events were taking place in Ireland, and even military men did not always conform to strict military discipline. This is as remarkable a tribute to conscience as you will find anywhere—a tribute even to its obstinacy:
  "If you penetrate deep enough into the depths of human nature, you will unfailingly reach in every one of us a stratum which is impervious to discipline or any other influence from without. The strangest manifestation of this truth lies in what men call conscience— an innate sense of right or wrong, which neither reason nor man-made law can affect."
  That is itself a very strong reason why man-made law should not seek to interfere with this strange and unyielding faculty in our being. I do not think that there is any greater tribute than the tribute of Butler himself. Butler says of conscience:
  "Had it strength as it has right, had it power as it has manifest authority, it would absolutely govern the world."
  I know full well that those who are administering this Act from headquarters do respect conscience. I see that the Minister of Health is present. I think he had to do with the framing of some of these regulations. I expressed to him my conviction that as regards what he had done in the matter of the training for the Ministry of the Church and in the treatment of conscientious objectors there was general satisfaction with the line that he had taken. I would like to pay a similar tribute to his successor, the present Minister of Labour. I am not withdrawing anything that I have said about the tribunals or law courts or some of the penalties to which these men have, unfortunately, been subjected, but I regard the Minister of Labour as one who shares in the views I have read and doubtless his Parliamentary Secretaries do also. I have found them willing to receive approaches, and make concessions where such concessions should be made, and so with some confidence I submit this Amendment in the hope that it will be accepted in full and carried out in a generous and just manner.
  Mr. Assheton: I am much indebted to the hon. Member for what he has said about my present chief and about my past chief, both of whom have very great

  1595
  regard to conscience in these matters. I do not think that the hon. Member need be under any anxiety at the present time, because men who are registered, either conditionally or unconditionally, and are on the register of conscientious objectors are already protected from being called up for whole-time service in the Armed Forces under the provisions of the National Service Act as it now stands. Possibly the hon. Member has put down the Amendment under some misapprehension and I am very glad now to have the opportunity of clearing it up.
  Mr. Silverman: I do not really want to take much part in this Debate, but it seems to me that the Parliamentary Secretary has not quite met the position put by my hon. Friend. It may well be—and I certainly would accept it from him—that no one at present on the register either conditionally or unconditionally, will by virtue of this Bill or of the existing Act be called upon to serve with the Armed Forces, but as regards the Clause we are considering to-day the Amendment is declaratory of a much wider issue than the liability to serve in the Armed Forces. It would enable the Minister to direct a man to do some other work, to direct him into industry. That might enable the Minister to vary the conditions which have already been approved by a tribunal under the National Service Act. Can he assure the Committee that that point is covered?
  Mr. Assheton: The Amendment of the hon. Member refers only to liability to service in the Armed Forces of the Crown.
  Mr. Harvey: The statement of the Parliamentary Secretary is very reassuring, but the words that my hon. Friend has moved are simply declaratory and there seems to be no reason why they should not be put into the Bill in order to remove misapprehensions which have arisen recently in consequence of legislation. There was a case not long ago when the learned judge presiding over the South-Eastern Tribunal ruled that the tribunal no longer had power to give an unconditional exemption in consequence of recent legislation. That was a mistake and the appellate tribunal corrected the mistake and made the legal position clear. Unless there is a declaratory clause in the Act there is a risk that certain tribunals, misconceiving the position, may cause diffi-
  1596
  culties which I am sure the Government would wish to avoid. This is purely a declaratory Amendment and I hope that the Committee will see its way to accept it.
  Mr. Barr: I would appeal, as my hon. Friend has done, for the acceptance of the Amendment. I know that the answer can be given that it might create anomalies and difficulties if put into the Clause. I believe that in its operation it would be harmless, and in fact it would be helpful. Certainly the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary is reassuring, but in view of what my hon. Friend has said, I think it would be a safeguard, and we should be grateful if the Government could give it verbal form.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): Honestly, I do not think that one should do this. If the Committee will look at the Bill they will see that it says in paragraph (a) that
  "the liability of any person to whole-time service in the armed forces of the Crown or in a civil defence force within the meaning of the National Service Act, 1941, shall be such as may be imposed upon him under the National Service Acts."
  Those Acts deal exhaustively with the position of conscientious objectors. As the National Service Acts are the Acts which are to govern service in the Armed Forces, it really would be inappropriate to put in words which are of no value.
  Mr. Silverman: Has the learned Attorney-General read paragraph (b)? Paragraph (a) deals with the liability to whole-time service in the Armed Forces of the Crown or in a Civil Defence Force within the meaning of the National Service Act, but paragraph (b) says:
  "the liability of any person to any other form of national service (including part-time, service in the armed forces of the Crown or in such a civil defence force as aforesaid) shall be such as may be imposed upon him under Defence Regulations."
  That is a different thing from paragraph (a). What is there, unless my hon. Friend's Amendment is accepted, to free a man whose conditions have already been determined by a tribunal from an obligation under paragraph (b)?
  The Attorney-General: I did not understand that the mover of the Amendment was concerned with anything except whole-time service in the Armed Forces.
  Mr. Barr: I thought it covered both whole-time and part-time service.
  The Attorney-General: I am sorry if I misunderstood. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment referred to people who had already been conditionally or unconditionally exempted from full service. The said words in this Bill might mean that they had to come up again, and he referred to a Scottish phrase which I have forgotten that a man who has been dealt with for one matter should not be dealt with over again. If the hon. Member's point is with regard to full-time service in the Armed Forces of the Crown, I did not quite appreciate the fact. It is a matter which can be dealt with by Defence Regulations. The question there raised would be whether, if there is a Defence Regulation providing for compulsion to be applied to service in the Home Guard, there should be the machinery for conscientious objection. That is a matter which must be dealt with and discussed when the Defence Regulation is brought before the House. There has been an undertaking that there will be a full discussion of the Regulation, before it becomes operative, with regard to the application of this matter to the Home Guard. I do not think it would be appropriate to put these words into this Bill now.
  Mr. Barr: I think it would be satisfactory if we could be given an assurance that there was no intention to apply this to those who had to serve part-time. At some distant future some of us may not be here, and there may be quite a different atmosphere from that which exists to-day.
  The Attorney-General: I can give an assurance on behalf of the Government that it is their intention, if compulsion is applied to the Home Guard, that there should be conditions similar to those which exist in the National Defence Forces. That would be the appropriate time to deal with it.
  Mr. Silverman: Whether that satisfies my hon. Friends or not I do not know, but it does not seem to me to meet the whole point. With the best will in the world I cannot see why the Government should not accept the Amendment. If they say it is their intention to give effect to a Defence Regulation, it is difficult to see why they should not accept the Amendment now and be done with it. The Attorney-General's assurance is that a Defence Regulation under paragraph
  1598
  (b) will provide for similar exemptions as before, but, as I understand it, that is what people want to avoid. They want to avoid the necessity of making men go again to a tribunal to make out their case a second time in order to obtain part-time service in the Armed Forces when they have already made out their case and obtained a judicial determination of what they are bound to do under the old Bill.
  The assurance given is only an assurance that they will have the opportunity of doing it again and that they will be bound to do it again. I think the simplest way of dealing with this problem is to say that, if a man has already availed himself of the machinery already existing with regard to exemption on conscientious grounds for military service, and has the determination of a tribunal, under the Act, of what his liability, conditional or unconditional, may be, that shall decide the matter for all time, and that nothing under this Act or nothing under the Regulation to be made under paragraph (b) shall impose upon him the liability of having to do it all again. That is in his own interest, the interest of the tribunal and in the interest of the smooth working of the machinery.
  Mr. Assheton: The hon. Member has made a certain suggestion, but that is not what the Amendment says. I would point out that if the Amendment were accepted, the form in which we have it here would not cover, for instance, those who may be recruited to the Home Guard under the age of 18. That would not be a satisfactory solution of the hon. Member's problem. I think that by far the best way to handle this matter is to leave it until it comes to be discussed in the House. Before the Defence Regulation is introduced there will be a discussion on the question of the Home Guard, and we are quite prepared to undertake now that this question of conscientious objection will be carefully considered when that time arrives.
  Mr. Barr: I thank the Government for having gone so far and for giving us that assurance. Perhaps between now and the Report stage they might consider a different form of words—we are not tied to these words—which will give some assurance to those in this condition and others interested that the exemption they would obtain would hold good either for

  1599
  full-time or pan-time service. In the hope that what I have suggested will be borne in mind, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Clifton Brown): Mr. Woodburn.
  Mr. Stephen: On a point of Order. I have on the Order Paper two Amendments to line 23 before the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn), which you have called. I know that the Chair has power to select Amendments, but it is also open to an hon. Member to ask the Chair to call Amendments which are on the Order Paper. I should like to submit to you that there are two important issues arising from this extension of compulsion to so many millions of people. There is, first, the danger that in the case of an industrial dispute those taking part in the dispute may be put into uniform, or declared to be on National Service, and made soldiers as a result of this liability. Secondly, there are the rates of pay and general conditions for people who are put into industry. For example, many millions of women may be commandeered compulsorily for industry. I think it is only fair that those of us who are interested in this matter should seek to insert in the Bill statutory protection with regard to the conditions and wages which these people should have if they are conscripted into the service of a profit-making industry.
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member has clearly explained the Amendments which he has on the Order Paper, but these matters were given very careful consideration and the arguments which he has now adduced were borne in mind when the Chair considered whether or not to select Amendments. Neither of the Amendments in the name of the hon. Member has been selected, and that is the Ruling of the Chair.
  Mr. Stephen: I have to accept the decision of the Chair in this matter for the time being, but in view of that Ruling, I shall have seriously to consider any possible steps open to me.
  Mr. Woodburn: I beg to move, in page 1, line 23, at the end, to add:
  "(d) nothing in this Section will require any female to accept a form of service which
  1600
  compulsorily involves her leaving and residing outside the home of her parent, where such parent is a widower or widow, who is infirm or over sixty years of age and where such female is the sole member of the family residing with such parent."
  My purpose in moving this Amendment is to ask the Government and the Minister to give serious consideration to the great problems of hardship that will arise as a result of this Bill. So far, when only men have been called up, there have not been raised the domestic issues that will be raised by the calling up of women, and if the Bill is to be welcomed in the country, something must be done to see that the hardship involved will net reach the stage of being insufferable and causing considerable discontent and resentment. I understand that at the present time the Minister's powers give him authority only to defer calling up for 12 months in cases of hardship. I suggest to the Minister that in this Bill power be taken for him to go beyond that 12 months in exceptional circumstances, and to continue deferring as long as the conditions make it practically impossible for a given person to serve. In my Amendment, I raise only one aspect of this matter. I do not move the Amendment with the idea that only these words would be acceptable; indeed, I would prefer that the Minister took this matter into consideration and put in a form of words which would give him power to extend such deferments beyond 12 months.
  I have in mind, for example, one case of a young woman who came to see me concerning this Bill. She did not object to being called up. She and a sister are wondering what will happen, when they are called up, to their aged parents. In this case the older girl is willing to join up if the younger girl stays at home. As things are, however, the younger girl will be called up first, and the older girl will not have an opportunity to state the position until some months later. This is an example of many types of hardship which will arise under this Bill, and the power to give a deferment for 12 months is quite inadequate. In such cases the Minister ought to allow girls to remain in their districts, because, if they are sent away from their homes, considerable trouble will arise. In as many cases as possible the Minister ought to remain the services of these young women in their own districts. With this Measure we are getting very near to breaking up the home. It is a

  1601
  delicate matter, and I hope that the Minister will give an assurance, if he is not prepared to accept this Amendment, that words will be put in the Bill, giving tribunals the power of exemption in cases where tremendous hardship will arise if a girl is sent away from her district to another part of the country.
  Mr. Assheton: My right hon. Friend made it very clear in his opening speech yesterday that hardship was a question to which he paid particular regard and attention, and, therefore, the Amendment which has been put forward has been most carefully considered. I wonder whether on reflection the hon. Member thinks it wise to press this Amendment. It suggests that certain particular hardships should be dealt with, whereas, under present circumstances, a hardship tribunal is in a position to take account of any exceptional hardship. It would be unwise, I think, for us to put in the Bill one or two particular types of hardship and make no reference to others. The Committee ought to be clear on the question of a 12-months' exemption. Under the present Regulation, hardship tribunals are in a position to give an exemption for any length of time, except in one particular set of circumstances, and that is business hardship. My right hon. Friend was going to announce to the Committee at a later stage in the Debate, in reference to a new Clause to be moved by my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), that it is his intention to consider this question of a 12-months exemption in cases of business hardship. I think the Committee will be very glad to hear that. It does not require any Amendment of the Bill, because it is a matter which the Minister can and will deal with by Regulation. I suggest, therefore, that the Amendment might perhaps be withdrawn.
  Mr. Stephen: I should like to be able to accept the hon. Gentleman's assurance, but my difficulty is not so much with the people at this end as with those on the hardship committees, and that is why I think it is necessary to try and put into statutory form some of the exemptions which we think ought to be given. My experience of hardship committees has been disappointing. I have had to go to the Ministry about it, and they have told
  1602
  me that the committee's decision is final if it is unanimous and that they cannot do anything. Possibly the Minister had seen the force of what I was saying with regard to hardship and had decided that there were some new circumstances that had arisen which allowed it to be reconsidered, though there were not really any new circumstances at all. I have one case particularly in mind with regard to fire watching where the mother was bedridden and the father was blind and severely ruptured, and yet the son was refused exemption. It was only on some additional medical plea that the decision was altered. Our experience has been that, if you take even the Service Ministers, there is nothing to complain about in their administration, but somehow or other with the best will in the world they do not seem to choose the most suitable people. They often get the round peg in the square hole or the square peg in the round hole on these committees. I wish the Minister would consider the setting forth of some general causes of exemption in statutory form or give the committees much more definite instructions and illustrations of cases where exemption ought most certainly to be given. I hope we shall get more than simply an assurance, because I do not trust a lot of the committees that we get working on these things.
  Mr. Mathers: My experience of the rulings of hardship tribunals has not been so unfavourable as that of the hon. Member, but I think there is a desirability for an even further assurance than that which has been given by the Parliamentary Secretary, because for an old person to be under the possibility of doubt for a considerable time about having a daughter, the sole other member of the household, taken away seems to be one which would have a very detrimental effect. If it could be made surer that in certain circumstances an exception would be made and a reservation given so that a girl would not be called up because her mother was infirm or was of a certain age, it would give comfort and satisfaction to the old lady who was being cared for. It seems to me that if that could be done by a firmer statement being made here, it would be a guidance to the hardship tribunal and would be an indication of the ministerial view of a situation of that kind.
  Mr. Evelyn Walkden: I am concerned with the words used in the Amendment
  "which compulsorily involves her leaving home and residing outside the home of her parent."
  I am not concerned with persons who actually appeal before the hardship tribunal or who know the machinery of the tribunal because my experience is that the vast number of complicated cases that Members receive are those of people who do not know the machinery and what their privileges and rights are. While Members of the House attend here and discuss the Amendments and the drafting of the Bill, I am not sure that even we know exactly what is meant when a particular set of words appears in the final draft and receives the Royal Assent. Certainly our constituents do not. There are many cases where girls have received their calling-up notices and been ordered away from their homes, and then somebody suddenly says, "Why didn't you appeal?" The girls cannot find anyone to help them and they have to go. The family is really an economic unit, and if it is split up because of the ignorance of the person concerned, it would be far more beneficial to her if she had a safeguard that even though she may have been ordered away because of her ignorance of the law and her privileges, she had the protection of the Minister or the law on the one hand or some assurance that she can re-appeal.
  Mr. Bevin: I cannot give an assurance of the kind asked for. I do not want to mislead anybody in the country, and it would reduce the liability of people to satisfy the war effort. These factories and services must be filled. It is better to be frank with the Committee and the country, and it is no use giving a pledge of an administrative act which we cannot carry out. I believe that the hardship tribunals have done their job well, and I want them to continue. If I followed the line suggested and tried to schedule exemptions, every Schedule would have a limiting effect, because anything that was left out would be ruled out. The hardship tribunal is flexible, and it has a wide power. It can take all kinds of circumstances into account. Then there is the appeal to the umpire, who gives guidance. It is true that the appeal board under the Defence Regulations can only make recommendations, but in nearly all cases they are accepted. Whether people
  1604
  go to the tribunal or the hardship committee under the Military Service Act, I am certain that they get better protection than they would get if I tried to pick out and anticipate every kind of difficulty and put them down in a schedule which would give even my legal friends a headache. I therefore propose to leave the system as it is.
  Mr. Woodburn: I am grateful for the assurance that the tribunals will be flexible, and that there will be a limit of 12 months. That will deal with a common misapprehension throughout the country. I am pleased also to hear that in the case of very grave hardship for little businesses, the men concerned will have a similar kind of protection. I recognise the justice of the statement that, if one thing is specified you tend to exclude other difficulties. I had no intention of making this a limiting Amendment in that sense. I suggest the Minister give instructions to his Department that the labour requirements of a particular area should be calculated before people are removed from that area, say, from Scotland to England, perhaps only to be brought back at a later stage. There will thus be a possibility, in practice, of guaranteeing what the Amendment suggests that women will be directed to industries in their own localities rather than to industries hundreds of miles away, with all the consequent difficulties. In view of the assurances, and the difficulties of framing an Amendment of this kind, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I wish to refer to two points, but if they are not in Order, I should like to raise them at the appropriate time. One concerns the important question mentioned by the Prime Minister, in moving a Motion the other day, about sending young men abroad. I recognise the difficulties of the Government in all respects, but I would only ask that they will go to great lengths to avoid going back on the promise they made, not only to this House, but to the country. I hope it will be possible at the appropriate time, now or whenever it may be, for the Government to make a further statement on that matter.

  1605
  The other point is in regard to the conscientious objections of women. I raised the matter when the Minister was speaking the other day, but I do not think he grasped the rather intricate point that I was trying to make. When a man has been conscripted for the Armed Forces and is a conscientious objector, he registers himself as such, goes before the tribunal and puts his case, and the tribunal allots to him work which it considers compatible with his degree of conscientious objection. The man may say not only, "I am not prepared to fight in the Army," but, "I am not prepared to make shells which another man will use in the Army." That is a perfectly logical position, and the tribunal may decide in his favour in that respect, in which case he will not be compelled to make shells any more than he would be compelled to fight in the Forces. The right hon. Gentleman has said that in introducing conscription for women he is not imposing on women anything different from what he is imposing on men, which, of course, is a principle that we in this House would entirely support.
  I would, however, put to him this point, which I would like to have cleared up, because I have had much correspondence about it, and I want to be quite sure what is the position. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the conscription he is imposing on women is in itself somewhat different from the conscription he is imposing on men. A woman will go before whatever is the proper authority and may be directed either into the Army or into some industry, in particular into a munitions factory. What I want to be quite clear about is this: Will a woman who is directed into a munitions factory—making lethal weapons, that is to say—have the right to say that she is a conscientious objector, to register herself as such and go before a conscientious objectors' tribunal? It is perfectly clear, on the analogy with men, that if she were directed into the Army, she would be entitled to register herself as a conscientious objector, but I want to have it made perfectly clear that the intention of the conscientious objection provisions will not be got round by putting her into a munitions factory when she may have conscientious objections to such employment.
  Major Haden Guest: There are one or two points to which I would like to invite the Minister's attention before the Committee is asked to decide on this Clause. By this Bill the House is creating a very great increase in the Armed Forces, a very great increase in the Civil Defence Forces, and is calling into production a very large number of people of new classes, and the Minister himself recognises an aspect of that problem which does not enter directly into this Bill, because he said, when introducing the Bill, that the administrative side is of vital importance in the building-up of a tremendous organisation. Unfortunately, this Bill does not deal with the administrative side, and it seems to me a pity that we have no opportunity of discussing it in detail. There are, however, one or two matters in connection with the administrative side to which, with the permission of the Committee, I would like to ask the Minister's attention.
  The Fighting Services, the Civil Defence Services and the production services must be properly led and must be fighting fit. I do not propose to refer to the Fighting Services and the Civil Defence Services, because their administration is provided for, but there is no provision at all up to the present for the services dealing with the vast new production army which we are about to recruit, and I should like to know whether the Minister will tell the Committee what is in his mind in that direction. I do not want to go into the questions of detail and of control of production which were raised in the form of an Amendment to the Maximum War Effort Resolution of last week, but the Minister is calling into existence a vast industrial army of men and boys, young girls and older women, and—this is the point of view from which I particularly wish to approach it—of part-time employed married women. A most careful provision of services will be needed for these people if production is to be fighting fit. It is a detailed provision of services that is required, and I say again that I regret we are not having an opportunity of discussing those details. I wish to draw attention especially to one aspect which I think was in the Minister's mind when he said,
  "… there was such a wide area of industrial plants in this country which had no provision at all for the employment of women. Owing to the lack of rest-room and

  1607
  lavatory accommodation, it was very inconvenient to employ women in them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th December, 1941, col. 1435, Vol. 376.]
  He went on to refer to the long distances which they had to travel. Then he said—
  The Deputy-Chairman: I fail to see the relevance of these remarks. These matters were discussed at length on the first Amendment, and I do not think we ought to go back to them now.
  Major Guest: With due respect, I wish to ask the Minister whether he can give us any indication of what provision he is going to make for the very necessary and rather detailed hygienic and medical supervision in the new factories which he is providing, because there is no suggestion of that at the present time, and there is no machinery existing at the present time. None of these factories is equipped, and there is a shortage of medical man-power. You will not get what you want unless you have the whole medical services of the country pooled. If you do that, you have enough medical men and women, but not otherwise.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: I have listened to practically the whole of this Debate. Before I can vote that this Clause stand part, I must express my disappointment with both the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary because I have not had any kind of reply, and this is the Clause on which a reply can be given, to the appeal I made yesterday. Apart from this Clause there is nothing that matters much, but before I am in a position to vote that the Minister shall take over the hundreds of thousands of people who, he asks in this Clause, shall be handed over to the tender mercies of his own Ministry, I must get answers to certain questions. If I cannot put these questions on the first Clause I cannot put them on the Bill at all. I think I am entitled to ask the Minister again whether, if the House grants him the powers he is asking for in the very first sentence of Clause I, he can satisfy the Committee that he has the machinery and the organisation to implement those powers. Speaking for myself I feel that a Member would be in an extremely foolish position if he handed over to the Government, or to any Ministry connected with the Government,
  1608
  powers about which he has no guarantee, no assurance that they will either be administered sensibly and intelligently, and not abused to the disadvantage of the country.
  We are entitled to ask the Minister to tell us how he proposes to use those powers. We have not been told yet, and I hope that a Member is entitled to get the necessary satisfaction before he associates himself with any steps the Government may take, perhaps to his own personal regret, and to the disadvantage of our own people. We have not been told how, if the Committee passes this Clause, the Minister proposes to mobilise, to control, to direct, to make the best use of these vast powers of life and death that will be placed in his hands, and in the hands of his Ministry. I must express my disappointment that, in the speech made yesterday by the Minister, apart from a sentence we were left in the dark. I am rather upset at that. I am horrified that a great Department, with its great power, with its long tradition, and with a Minister whose standing and prestige in the trade union movement are something of which he ought to be proud cannot tell us how it is proposed to organise, plan and mobilise those powers to the best advantage of the country. Since conscription was first imposed, with the Minister of Labour taking the principal part in conscripting people, I have had no reason to believe that such extended powers as he is asking for will be used as well as they should be. I very much regret that the Government have asked for the powers contained in Clause I without being able to tell the Committee that, in anticipation of these powers being granted, they have replanned the whole business of mobilising men and women, and that they will show far greater appreciation of the powers vested in them than they have done up to now. I must express my extreme disappointment with either the short-sightedness of the Minister or his complete inability to take advantage of the great powers which it is contemplated granting to him.
  Mr. Stephen: I am in complete opposition to the whole Bill, and I think I have an opportunity on this Clause of stating my opposition to the provision which it makes for imposing a general obligation of National Service upon everybody. I

  1609
  am very sorry that when the first Amendment was taken, and the Question was put from the Chair, I rather slipped up, but I propose to divide the Committee on this Clause. We have not pressed other Amendments to a Division because we recognise that our numbers are few and we do not wish to put the Committee to unnecessary inconvenience, but I hope that in future the Minister will not say, "The pacifists did not go into the Lobby on this matter." I want that to be clearly understood, because I have noticed that on many occasions Ministers have used that argument. This Clause empowers the Minister to send any individual in the country to work in a workshop which is under private ownership, for whatever wages the employer may be willing to pay. It will give complete power to put an individual to work, anyway. Many millions of the people of this country will be working, under direct, statutory compulsion, piling up profits for the profiteering community. That will be one of the worst forms of slavery that could be imposed.
  Dr. Russell Thomas: Will the hon. Member describe how they will be piling up profits, in view of the Excess Profits Tax and other restrictions? I want that to be made quite clear.
  Mr. Stephen: I have not the slightest doubt that, while the hon. Member is making a debating point, he is just as well aware as I am that there was never greater racketeering going on in this country than there is at the present time.
  Dr. Thomas: Racketeering is quite a different thing. The hon. Member was speaking of profiteering.
  Mr. Stephen: The racketeering that I have in mind is not a black market or anything like it, but the way in which people in possession of great industrial and financial power in the community are using the present opportunity to add greatly to their industrial and financial resources. They are doing it and it is well known to everybody.
  The Deputy-Chairman: We have discussed profiteering long enough. Let us get back to the Clause.
  Mr. Stephen: The object of this Clause is to make it seem easy for. racketeering on the part of the financial and industrial
  1610
  magnates of the country and, to my mind, whatever the motive of the Minister of Labour may be, the statutory effect of it will be to give to these financial magnates the opportunity of adding tremendously to their fortunes through the industrial conscription imposed upon the workers of this country.
  The Deputy-Chairman: That is a matter I could not rule as having relevance in any way to this Clause.
  Mr. Stephen: I have gone so far with it that I am willing now to accept for the time being your decision with regard to this matter. I gave notice that I was certainly going to consider the further steps that lay within my power. I have pursued it as far as possible until called to order by the Chair, and I have to accept that ruling for the time being.
  I want to go on to another point and deal with the position in which this Committee finds itself. No provision is being made in this Clause with regard to the conditions and wages that will rule in the industries into which these people are to be compelled to go. It is a terrible thing for a Minister of Labour to have to push through this House a Statute that has no protection for his fellow workers in this respect. There have been a great many changes since this war started. There is a new Prime Minister. A great many people who hail him to-day had very little use for him just before he became Prime Minister. The Minister of Labour commented on the fact that he sometimes did not get a good Press, but my own impression is that it is much better than he deserves.
  Mr. Bevin: I agree.
  Mr. Stephen: The Press has not been unduly hard on him so far
  The Deputy-Chairman: The question of the Press and the Minister of Labour has nothing to do with this Clause. We must discuss what is in the Clause and not so much what we would like to see in it.
  Mr. Stephen: Surely it is possible for a Member to be in Order in making reference to a statement made by the Minister. In the course of the Debate he referred to the Press that he had built up and the way in which he was being treated by the Press.
  The Deputy-Chairman:I was in the Chair when he made that statement and I heard it. It was on an Amendment which was negatived; it is out of the Clause which is under discussion and, therefore, out of Order.
  Mr. Stephen: The Amendment, if I remember rightly, was not negatived but was withdrawn. It is quite true that it is not in the Clause, but it has always been the practice, within limits, to refer to matters not in a Clause and to statements made on Amendments which have been rejected. Again I must accept your ruling. Evidently we are making great progress with the carrying on of the war. This country has become totalitarian and this Clause puts people in a worse position than they are in Germany. If this Committee uses machinery to put the country in that position I must do all I can to prevent it. I am sure that when this Clause becomes operative and women are being dragged off by Bevin's press gangs, there will be a tremendous uprising in the country. [Interruption.] There are many Members on the Labour Benches who owe all they have politically to the I.L.P.
  Miss Rathbone: An I.L.P. candidate polled 2 per cent. in a recent by-election.
  Mr. Stephen: If the hon. Lady will look at the poll at Lancaster, which was our most recent by-election, she will see that it was 20 per cent. As I was saying, if this Clause becomes operative I am certain there will be a tremendous uprising among the people of the country at the conditions being imposed upon them. When the young women are dragged off to the Army and the sweat shops, there will be a great upturn among the people, and I have no doubt that then many hon. Members who are now acquiescent in the policy of the Government will claim that they helped us when we were putting up this fight on behalf of the workers of this country.
  Mr. Martin: Without trespassing on the Ruling which you made, Colonel Clifton Brown, in the case of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Islington (Major Haden Guest), I should like to ask the Minister whether he can give any account of the measures he intends to take to look after the health of the people who are called up under this Clause. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as
  1612
  anyone how much distress and inconvenience have been caused to individuals and families by improper and unfortunate medical examinations in the case of soldiers called up for the Army. Many men who have been called up have had to be invalided out as unlit for the duties they had to perform, and have not had any pension or remuneration to sustain them. The women are now to be con-scribed, and the point arises whether, if they find themselves in an unfit state of health, they can leave their employment on a medical certificate of their own doctor, or whether they will have to get a certificate from some medical board or other that may be set up by the right hon. Gentleman to deal with such cases.
  Realising the immense physical, mental and nervous strain, and the psychological strain, that will in many cases be put on these women and girls, I ask the Minister whether he can give us an assurance that there will be an organisation adequate to deal with this aspect of the matter, and whether he can relieve us of the very real anxiety which besets us at the present time. There is another matter to which I want to refer. I have here the cases of 15 or 16 men, instructors having very high technical qualifications, who were employed at one of the Government's training schools. A month ago they were given notice and told that their services were redundant. They were given an assurance by the staff manager of the training school that before the month expired fresh employment of a suitable character would be found for them. To-day, those men were dismissed without any such employment—
  The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid that matter is not relevant to the Clause.
  Mr. Martin: With great respect, I was giving that only as a preparatory explanation of the point I want to make. If it is the case that at the present time such a large number of people can be dispensed with from a single school, can we be given an assurance that all necessary preparations have been made for the calling up of these large numbers of men and women so as to obviate that most unfortunate dilemma in which people may find themselves a short time after they have been called up and left important and valuable work which they were doing in the past?

  1613
  Will the right hon. Gentleman give an answer to that?
  Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: I want to put one or two questions to the Minister. According to paragraph (b) of the Clause, men can be taken either for military training or for a Civil Defence force. I do not think that provision is quite clear. In the country districts, there are many people in the Civil Defence forces whom we should be glad to have in the Home Guard. At present the position with regard to them is doubtful. In the provision as it now stands, it seems to me that a man can either become a Home Guard and get some military training, or go into Civil Defence. I hope that the Regulations made under this Clause will permit men in suitable places, perhaps in the danger areas, to receive military training, so that, if and when invasion comes, they will be of use in repelling the invader.
  Mr. Bellenger: The point I wish to raise concerns the position of Members of Parliament under this Clause. Yesterday the Minister rejected this matter in a jocular manner. I do not think we can leave it at that.
  Mr. Bevin: They are liable.
  Mr. Bellenger: Of course, they are. I think that with my right hon. Friend giving so many directions to all sorts of people, he might give a few directions to Members of this House and Members of the other House. Firstly, there are the young men of this House, who are very few in number. I should have thought their duty was very clear, and if I had been a young man, I should not have waited to be told. I would point out to hon. Members that the country wants to see how they interpret these provisions in their own case. I feel that it would be a good example for the country if the Minister said something by way of direction to Members of Parliament in regard to their duties under this Bill. Secondly, there are the elderly Members. In their case I feel that it might be entirely useless to put them to static work in the Forces. I suggest that the Minister might say a few words on this matter and state what Members of Parliament should do under this Clause. Perhaps he may also say at the-same time what facilities would be given, so that Members could, in a limited way, deal with their Parliamentary duties.
  1614
  This is a serious matter, and it is a matter of serious import to the country.
  Mr. McNeil: Naturally I feel a little diffident about interjecting in this Debate after the speech of my "elderly" friend. I must crave the indulgence of the Minister, because I was absent when he gave his assurance to the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn). I wish to refer to the constitution of the hardship tribunals. The tribunals were competent to deal only with circumstances which were temporary. Clearly, in a case where there is an aged or infirm parent hardship can be considered.—
  The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid we cannot repeat the Debate on that Amendment. We must keep to the Clause and not deal with the Amendment. which has been disposed of.
  Mr. McNeil: Will the Minister tell me ii he now proposes to alter the procedure of the hardship tribunals so that such circumstances as these will be taken into consideration?
  Mr. G, Strauss: I support the request of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) and should like the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance on the matter. We all want to do what we can in support of the war effort, but many feel that the first duty that we have to fulfil is to our constituents, and what other duties we can fulfil apart from that we are only too pleased to do. I understand that the position is this: Members of Parliament who are in the Army are able to get leave, if necessary permanent leave, in order to carry on their duties in the House if they deem it their duty to do so, but, as far as I am aware, there is no Regulation or assurance or provision in being in regard to Members who might be conscripted for industrial purposes. I am certain that members of the public, the electors, want to see that their Members are putting forward their grievances and voicing their views. If we believe in democracy, it is essential that Members should be free to do so and that the electors should not be disfranchised. Therefore, I should like to have an assurance that nothing in the Bill will prevent a Member from discharging his Parliamentary duties and that whatever arrange-

  1615
  ments may be made, a Member of Parliament will be free to do so according as he thinks fit.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Before we part with the Clause I think those of us who represent industrial centres ought to have some assurance with regard to the way in which it is to be administered. It is from the National Service Acts, 1939 and 1941, that the Minister derives his power to issue Regulations, and he and the Prime Minister said last week that it was their desire that those Acts should be administered as sympathetically and as fairly as possible. If we are going to do that, it is necessary that the machinery should function in such a way as to command the confidence of the people of the country and that the people who are to be called up should have confidence in the machinery and its administration. Up to now we have had very little cause for complaint on the score of influence. In the last war, although I was very young, I remember how it crept into the administration of the Derby scheme, and later into the Conscription Acts. I want us to be on our guard that there shall be no danger of influence when the Bill becomes an Act. I know how easy it is for favouritism to creep into the administration of an Act of this kind. Then, when our men and women take a stand for what is right, there is a danger all the time of intimidation and victimisation. We want an assurance that, when instructions are sent out, the right hon. Gentleman will make it clear to his staff, and to employers, that in no circumstances must there be favouritism, intimidation or victimisation as the result of our agreeing to this Clause.
  Mr. Bevin: As to the point put by my hon. Friend opposite with regard to the 18's and 19's, the difficulty that faced the Services was the borderline case of the men who after training were nearly 20 and the probable breaking-up of the units to Which they had been drafted. It was the desire of the Government to adhere as far as possible to their pledge, but there was the difficulty caused by that gap and, therefore, the Government ask to be released from the pledge. The change, however, will be administered with great care. With regard to the conscientious objectors, I thought I made it clear on Second Read-
  1616
  ing and in the Debate last week that the position of women is exactly the same as that of men. The woman will be called for the Services, not for the factory. If she is called for the Services she is given the right to opt for the factory. That is a secondary stage within her own volition, so that her right to register as a conscientious objector is as an objector against the Service. If she registers as a conscientious objector she does not opt for the factory at all. She is dealt with in the same category as men called for military service. If she establishes her case as an absolutist she is in the same position as a man; if her registration is made conditional, she is in the same position as the man. That keeps the law on strictly parallel lines with the law in regard to men.
  I was asked by two hon. Members whether there was sufficient organisation to cope with this call-up. The call-up is small compared with the numbers we have called up hitherto. The Services are constantly in a state of expansion. I cannot very well deal with the nationalisation of the medical services under this Bill.
  Major Haden Guest: I did not suggest that. I said "pooling," which is a different story.
  Mr. Bevin: It is common practice now to avoid the old terms. The Services are constantly being expanded on the health side. I made early provision for a great innovation in British industry by the compulsory medical service in industry. As is well known, that innovation has expanded to a degree which now includes nursing. The widespread employment of nursing services in industry is far beyond what any Member ever dreamed possible in the short time that it has been in practice. I think we can take care of that side of the matter. An hon. Member raised the question of the dismissal of inspectors. I do not believe this matter comes within the Bill, but I would remind the hon. Member that those men are not called up, but are employed in the ordinary way in their profession. When their use in that profession comes to an end the contract is ended, and their services may be transferred elsewhere.
  A further point was whether we had made appropriate provisions in regard to wages. We were charged with herding girls into sweated employment. I can

  1617
  only say that the Fair Wages Clause, under Arbitration Order 1305, is more widely applied now, and compulsorily, than ever, and that standard rates of wages are paid over a more widespread area of British industry, under collective agreements, which are more widely and more accurately applied, than ever has been the case in the history of the country.
  Mr. Maxton: Is it on a voluntary basis?
  Mr. Bevin: No, that is compulsion. That was a little anticipation. We imposed that on the employers before we brought in this Bill. One thing has struck me. Everyone seems to have referred to my great traditions and my honourable past. I wish they had written to me in that strain while the past was still the present; but I do not remember anything like that, in the course of that period. With regard to the question of Civil Defence Forces and the Home Guard, if a person is in a Civil Defence Force now, he is held in Civil Defence. It is essential not to have men hopping about from one Force to another so that you do not know where they are when trouble comes. When the Home Guard comes to be discussed will be the time to settle such problems. A further point put to me is with regard to the power under which the Regulations are made. It is not under the National Service Acts of 1939–41, but the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act. There the sources of the power exist.
  I was asked about victimisation and favouritism. You cannot make a perfect machine, however much you try. You make it as perfect as possible in its administration. I am told that the reserved occupation list is so well understood, and so capable of being applied in various ways, that a good many people who ought to be in the Services are escaping. Individual deferment is intended to get over that side of the trouble. I have tried, under the machine which has been set up, to afford the best provision I can think of. When a man is called up, he has to inform his employer that he is called up. If his employer does not apply for him, the man can apply himself or through his organisation, so that if at any time this Measure is used for the purposes of getting rid of somebody who is not liked, or for any purpose of victimisation such as was
  1618
  alleged in the last war, I cannot think of any other means of protection than allowing the man himself or his trade union to apply as well as his employer. I want to impress on my hon. Friends the words bearing on this Clause which I used earlier in the Debate, that women will want to be satisfied that the machinery for dealing with men in reserved occupations is just, and that they are not being called to the colours before the men who are available. That is the great problem for which I have had to try and find a solution. The two proposals, together with the arrangements I have made, have covered it as effectively as possible, subject to hon. Members of this House and the country's organisations acting as watchdogs—which it is their duty to do— with a view to seeing that any case of abuse is brought to the attention of the Department.
  The last point put to me was concerning the position of Members of Parliament. I cannot be expected to act as a father to Members of Parliament. I am just beginning to learn about them, but I cannot be expected to know very much. All I can say is that Members of Parliament are liable under this Bill. What Parliament does, or what Members of Parliament do, in the discharge of that liability is not my affair; I cannot be their confessor or the keeper of their consciences. Parliament itself must decide what duties, obligations or places Members must fill. I do not really think it is fair to ask that they should be dealt with under a Bill of this kind, because it would apply only to this Bill, whereas it ought to apply to a whole wide range of public obligations in a war of this kind.
  Mr. Bernays: My right hon. Friend has said that it is Parliament which will decide what hon. Members will do. Surely that is not so. If this Clause is passed, it will not be Parliament which will decide but the hardship tribunal, and will that not make it possible for an organisation outside Parliament to decide whether Members of Parliament should give their undivided attention to their constituents?
  Mr. Bevin: Members of Parliament under this Bill will be in the same position as persons essential to the national war effort. They will be dealt with under the reservation scheme and under the deferment scheme.
  Mr. Bernays: But not by Parliament.
  Mr. Bevin: They will also have the third alternative of applying for deferment on the grounds of hardship. I understood that in the Acts dealing with Civil Defence, and in every other Act dealing with National Service that has been passed since I have been in this House, no exception has been made for Members of Parliament. I am following exactly the same lines. As I understand it, I am introducing no new principle. Members of Parliament must use the machinery provided in the Bill in exactly the same way as other persons. That, as I understand it, has applied all through the legislation in this war.
  Mr. A. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. He has not introduced a new principle into the Bill, and it is perfectly correct that he is adhering, in respect of this, to the same way as other Ministers have done in respect of other obligations imposed on the public. Nevertheless, it is an issue which Parliament will have to face, the issue which arises now in this Clause. The position, as I understand it, is that Members of Parliament are placing themselves at the disposal of a Minister of the Crown, because if the right hon. Gentleman, in the exercise of the powers which Parliament is now giving him, directs a Member of Parliament to do certain work, that Member will either have to do that work or make an appeal to another body against the direction of the Minister. That raises a principle of first-class Constitutional importance. In the first instance, should Members of Parliament put themselves under the disability of being directed by any Minister whatever? It is perfectly true it has been done in the National Service Acts. I understand there is a Member of His Majesty's Forces who would have been here to-day except that it had been mentioned to him that, if he were here, it would have an unfortunate effect upon certain duties which he has to perform. Here, at once, is a conflict arising. Surely, there is only one principle on which this House can take a stand. It does not refer to our own personal wishes at all. We have no right frivolously to dispose of the confidence which thousands of people have reposed in us. My constituents have sent me here to represent them. I have no right to waive that representation by
  1620
  satisfying any emotion of personal indulgence. I could join the Army, because I looked nice in a uniform and because I could parade myself up and down as major. I could enjoy also a very important financial advantage from it without very much work. I could add to my salary and my emoluments, and at the same time appear to be having a very honourable career.
  Sir E. Grigg: Is the hon. Member suggesting that he would have a commission without passing through the ranks, and without qualifying?
  Mr. Bevan: I answer at once by saying that I would suffer from disabilities others have not got. I did not go to Harrow or Rugby, but I believe that I could get over even that difficulty quite easily. But the important point is this: At the moment Members of Parliament are exempted from their obligations, in so far as they are exempted under the National Service Acts, not by Parliament but by the Army Council. In other words, Members have put themselves at the disposal of the Army Council.
  Dr. Russell Thomas: And at the disposal of the Executive.
  Mr. Bevan: They have put themselves at the disposal of the Executive. This surely, is a matter of considerable importance. My own position, like that of many hon. Members, is quite clear. If the Minister of Labour directed me to do a job which I considered would interfere with my Parliamentary duties— because I would be of age under this Bill—I would take no notice of his direction. It may be embarrassing for him to learn this, but I would consider that the direction given to me by my constituents was more important than his direction, and that I should be, in tact, betraying the confidence imposed in me by my constituents if I took any notice of his direction. That would raise a constitutional issue of first-class importance. Not merely that, but I do not consider that Members of Parliament should ever have present in their minds, when they are speaking in this House, the fact that Ministers are able to impose upon them penalties, punishments or embarrassments which may stand in the way of their speaking their minds freely.

  1621
  We are putting very important powers into the hands of the Executive. The nonsensical argument has been advanced in this House more than once that Members of Parliament must not ask for more-privileges than their constituents possess, but if Members of Parliament do not defend their privileges their constituents will have none left. There is only one way in which the people of this country can have the authority of the Executive mitigated or modified, and that is by having a free House of Commons. I am not saying to my right hon. Friend that he has been more guilty than other Ministers, but he has been as guilty as they, and he seeks to impose upon the House obligations which are grievous and, in my opinion, undignified. If we cannot get from the Government better assurances than we have had, it will be necessary for us to consider putting down an Amendment, to bring about the exemption which the Government will not grant.
  Sir Percy Harris: This is an important issue. Hon. Members will agree that we are on the horns of a dilemma. I believe that the public outside would resent a Clause in this Bill definitely exempting Members of Parliament. They would say that the Bill should impose an obligation for National Service on the whole nation. It would be a mistake to go out of our way to say deliberately that Members may be absolved from that obligation. On the other hand, I think equally, although it is a contradiction, that the public desire their Members to be in the House. It sounds absurd, but people say, on the one hand, "Why should Members of Parliament be exempt?" and, in the very next breath, they say that a Member's duty is to be in the House. I think it would be a tragedy if the younger generation were excluded from our deliberations, and if this House became an assembly of old men, of men over military age. That would weaken its authority and force, and would raise the issue of elderly gentlemen sending young men and women into the Services, while they stayed comfortably at home. It is a humorous position, but a serious one. The Government have a responsibility to solve this riddle. I think we could best exercise our ingenuity by not being completely logical. It is a peculiarity of most of our legislation that in
  1622
  it we do not attempt absolute logic. But that is a question which will have to be faced, and, sooner or later, solved, in the interests of the younger generation.
  Mr. Gallacher: I am afraid that I do not agree with the attitude of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). I would like first to draw attention to the fact that the Clause itself has been presented, and rightly so, as expressing a very considerable measure of national unity. If it were in Order, I would draw attention to the fact that you would not get such an expression of national unity if it were property and profits that were at issue, but in view of the fact that that is not in Order, I will not deal with it.
  Mr. Silverman: It was dealt with last week.
  Mr. Gallacher: I was unfortunately called away to a very important meeting, for which I could not get a deputy, or I would have participated in support of that Amendment. It would be one of the most disastrous things that could happen if a decision were taken in connection with this Measure, which is bringing in men and women, some of them very young, from all over the country, to insert into it that Members of Parliament would be exempted from the Bill.
  Dr. Thomas: You are over 50.
  Mr. Gallacher: On Christmas Day I shall be 60 years of age. It is obvious that the Executive must take responsibility for ensuring the carrying on of the work of Parliament.
  Mr. Bevan: Do I understand the hon. Member—
  Mr. Gallacher: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to make myself plain. I know all that is said about the right of Parliament to decide the work of the Executive and so on. Naturally, if the Executive takes steps which will interfere with the carrying on of Parliament, then Parliament will deal with the Executive. We are told continually that the Executive is responsible for this, that or the other, and if the Executive does wrong, then Parliament must act. Is anybody going to suggest or say to the country that if this is passed, the Prime Minister, the Minister of Labour and one

  1623
  or two others will decide to call up every Member of Parliament and close Parliament altogether? If the Minister of Labour calls up the Member for Ebbw Vale, then Parliament will want to know what he is playing at. He would have to give a most effective answer to Parliament why the Member for Ebbw Vale or the Member for West Fife had been called up for a particular service. But if it went out to the country that you were going to deal with everybody and yet provide in the Bill for Members of Parliament to be exempt, you would destroy Parliament. I suggest that very serious consideration should be given as to the best use to be made of Members of Parliament. There is all this talk about representing the constituencies. I am concerned to represent my constituency, but a whole lot of my constituents would be very happy if the Minister of Labour would decide that I should spend a few months or a year with the Forces right in the front line, where so many of them have fathers, sons and brothers.
  Although I am 60 years of age, I lead a fairly active life, under occasionally rough conditions, and I think I could stand up to such a task. I do not want to see any of the picnic parties that took place in the last war, where delegations went to look at the boys in the rear. But some of us saw the fighting of the International Brigade in Spain. We went right up to the front line trenches, and there alongside the lads we were able to play a quite useful part in strengthening, encouraging and helping them along. If it was a question of going to some of our lads now, not looking on from afar, but getting alongside them, it could be of the greatest advantage to them. We should bring back to the House our impressions of how the lads were feeling and be able to carry to them the expressions of feeling of their parents and friends. I am concerned as much as anybody about representing my constituency; I try to represent it to the utmost of my power, but I would not consider I was deserting my constituency if it was proposed that I should take on for a period, work of that kind. Members talk about representing their constituencies, but most of their constituents will be in some form of service or in the Armed Forces. It is the same
  1624
  with clergymen. Most of their parishioners will be in the Services too. They should be included.
  It would be an offence to the people of this country to put in this Bill the exemption of Members of Parliament. Parliament must carry on its work; that is true. Members themselves have the responsibility of controlling the Executive in such a way as to ensure that the Executive uses Members of Parliament to their best advantage, not only to the country as a whole, but to the House of Commons itself. If, for instance, there was a particular job in an engineering shop where there was a particular difficulty which my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) or myself were capable of overcoming do you think we should object to going into a factory and doing that job? Not for a moment. It is all nonsense to suggest that if Members of Parliament are included, something sinister will happen and that all young and old will be called up to be shoved into a job somewhere, whether they are fit for doing that particular job or not. I am certain that every concern will be shown for Members of Parliament by the Government and for the carrying on of Parliamentary work. I hope every effort will be made to ensure that Members of Parliament, like everybody else, will be working all the time and be doing something that is useful, like others are being ordered to do. I want it to be clear that I am as fit as many young people who are to be called up and that I am ready at any time to take up any work that is being imposed on others.
  Mr. Bevin: I want to make an appeal to the Committee to get this Clause through. We have spent a long time upon it, and the question that has now been raised is one which I cannot, without consultation with my colleagues, solve. In this Bill there is no Amendment to the existing position of any previous Bill. I do not touch Members of Parliament under this Bill more than any other Bill. Therefore, having regard to the fact that the work of the Department has to be carried on as well while we are trying to get this business through, I would ask the Committee to give me this Clause.
  Mr. Bevan: I am not anxious to delay the proceedings, but may I ask whether

  1625
  the Minister intends to consult his colleagues in the Cabinet about this principle before we come to the next stage of the Bill?
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. I do not think I could be a party to raising the whole Parliamentary issue and the question of the rights of Members on this Bill. I think that if hon. Members feel that the legislation now going through does not meet the position, then representations ought to be made to the Prime Minister through the usual channels.
  Mr. Harvey: Will the Minister consider the possibility of making a pronouncement, on the occasion of a new Clause, not to exempt Members of Parliament, but to declare that any duty placed upon them by this Bill would not interfere with their Parliamentary duties?
  Mr. Bevin indicated dissent.
  Mr. Bevan: Surely, that is a reasonable request. I do not intend to argue against some of the demagogy we have heard on this matter, because what hon. Members are really saying is that they hope that by some backstairs method they will be exempted from obligations under the Bill. They do not like the onus of saying that, but it is present in their minds. It is a most cowardly position which leaves the constitutional relationship between the House and the Executive in a state of complete chaos. You cannot solve the problem by running away from it or by becoming demagogic. The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) indulged in muddled demagogy. Is it unreasonable to ask the Minister to accede to the request made by the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. Harvey) and make a declaration that no duties under this Bill will be permitted in any way to interfere with the rights of Members to attend to their Parliamentary duties? That is a reasonable request. It would mean that a Member's conception of his Parliamentary rights and his duties to his constituents would override anything else.
  Dr. Russell Thomas: Those Parliamentary duties and rights not to be defined by the Minister.
  Mr. Bevan: Certainly—by the Minister himself. I do not expect the Minister to give me a reply now, but is it unreasonable
  1626
  to ask him, before the Bill is passed, to consult with his colleagues as to the possibility of doing what the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities has suggested, or finding some other device to meet the point, which is an important one?
  Mr. Bevin: I suppose that this issue is being pressed upon me at this moment because of the difficulty of dealing with it at this stage. [Interruption.] Please be quiet. [Interruption.] It is well to be emphatic sometimes. I have listened with great patience to the speeches that have been made. When dealing with a vital question of this kind, mere dialectics do not help one out of the difficulty, and they are unimpressive, too. Certainly we will consider any matter which is raised by any Member. Perhaps I might put a point of view to my hon. Friend who asked this question. In my personal view this question ought not to be raised on this Bill, which is an amending Bill to a series of Acts. I will repeat what I said earlier. So far as I understand it, nothing in this Bill interferes with any of the rights which Members have exercised ever since war broke out.
  Mr. Bernays rose—
  Mr. Bevin: I want to answer my hon. Friend's question. If I am interrupted, I do not complete the sentence, and I do not give the correct answer which I have in my mind. This Bill does not interfere, as I understand it, with any of the rights, privileges or practices which hon. Members of this House have exercised under all the legislation since war broke out. As I am making no change in the law, I should regret the matter being forced to an issue on this Bill. It is, however, perfectly proper to make representations to the Government on the general question of whether the legislation ought to be modified.
  Mr. Bernays: Is not the difference between this and other Measures, that under this Bill, according to a paragraph I read in the "Sunday Times," 140 Members are affected? Supposing the age is raised to 60, 250 Members might be involved. Surely this is making nonsense of the House of Commons. None of us want to shirk our military duties; it is a question between a Member and his constituents, because, if the Member is slack

  1627
  in the war effort, they can find a remedy at the next election. We wish to ask whether, in the course of our military duties, we shall, under this Bill, come to this House by grace or by right. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister complimented the House on the large attendance on Monday, when he particularly wanted to take us into consultation. I do not think that I am putting an absurd point when I ask: If, in the course of our military duties, we become involved in some disciplinary offence, are given three days' confinement to barracks, and are stopped by the sentry officer at the gate and prevented from coming to this House, is that a breach of Privilege? Should we not be put in a position to claim that we have been prevented from coming to this House? That is a very important point.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid that we cannot discuss Privilege under this Amendment.
  Mr. Bernays: I will repeat my question. I do not ask for an answer now, but will the Government consider, before this Bill becomes law, the very difficult

  Division No. 4.]

  AYES.

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Adamson, W. M. (Cannock)

  Chater, D.

  Gates, Major E. E.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Cobb, Captain E. C.

  Gibson, Sir C. G.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Colegate, W. A.

  Gledhill, G.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Glyn, Sir R. G. C.

  Assheton, R.

  Colville, Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Conant, Capt. R. J. E.

  Granville, E. L.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Balfour, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. H.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Groves, T. E.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P.

  Critchley, A.

  Guest, Lt.-Col. H. (Drake)

  Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

  Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

  Guest, Maj. L. Haden (Islington, N.)

  Beaumont, Hubert (Batley)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

  Beechman, N. A.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Hambro, A. V.

  Bellenger, F. J.

  Davidson, Viscountess (H'm'l H'mst'd)

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

  Harris, Rt. Hon. Sir P. A.

  Bevin, Rt. Hon. E.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Headlam, Lt.-Col. Sir C. M.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Blair, Sir R.

  Denville, Alfred

  Henderson, J. J. Craik (Leeds, N. E.)

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C.

  Dobbie, W.

  Hewlett, T. H.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Doland, G. F.

  Hill, Prof. A. V.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Donner, Squadron Leader P. W.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Bower, N. A. H. (Harrow)

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T. (Cleveland)

  Dugdale, Major T. L. (Richmond)

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Dunn, E.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (H'ckn'y, N.)

  Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Hughes, R. M.

  Brass, Capt. Sir W.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Hulbert, Squadron-Leader N. J.

  Brocklebank, Sir C. E. R.

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Brooke, H.

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Isaacs, G. A.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Erskine Hill, A. G.

  James, Wing-Comdr. A. W. H.

  Burke, W. A.

  Evans, Colonel A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Jarvis, Sir J. J.

  Butcher, Lieut. H. W.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Jeffreys, Gen. Sir G. D.

  Cadogan, Major Sir E.

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Findlay, Sir B.

  Jennings, R.

  Cape, T.

  Frankel, D.

  Jewson, P. W.

  Carver, Colonel W. H.

  Gallacher, W.

  John, W.

  Cazalet, Tkelma (Islington, E.)

  Gammans, L. D.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  position of Members of Parliament in relation to their military duties?
  Mr. Maxton: I have been attending from an early part of the discussion in order to vote against the Clause standing part of the Bill, and I propose to maintain that position, but I want it clearly understood that I am not casting my vote against the Clause on the issue that is raised now, which I think merits a statement from the Government, though I agree that it is quite unfair to put it up to the Minister of Labour to make a statement off-hand on this Measure. I think he is very wise to refuse to do anything of the sort. [Interruption.] Even he, I hope, would have enough wisdom to refuse to be drawn on a thing of this description. If we are to have a statement, it should be a considered, responsible statement, made on behalf of the whole Government. I propose, as soon as I am given the opportunity, to divide the Committee on the Question ''That the Clause stand part."
  Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 0.

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Pearson, A.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Peto, Major B. A. J.

  Storey, S.

  Kerr, Sir John Graham (Scottish U's)

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  King-Hall, Commander W. S. R.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Strickland, Capt. W. F.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Price, M. P.

  Stuart, Rt. Hn. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Law, R. K.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Leslie, J. R.

  Radford, E. A.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Lipson, D. L.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Little, Dr. J. (Down)

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Taylor, Capt. C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Lloyd, Major E. G. R. (Renfrew, E.)

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Loftus, P. C.

  Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Lucas, Major Sir J. M.

  Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

  Thomas, Dr. W. S. Russell (S'th'm'tn)

  Lyle, Sir C. E. Leonard

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Tomlinson, G.

  Mabane, W.

  Rickards, G. W.

  Train, Sir J.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Riley, B.

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Ritson, J.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Comdr. R. L.

  McKie, J. H.

  Roberts, W.

  Wakefield, W. W.

  McNeil, H.

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  Walkden, A. G. (Bristol, S.)

  Maitland, Sir A.

  Rothschild, J. A. de

  Walkden, E. (Doncaster)

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. Sir E.

  Russell, Sir A. (Tynemouth)

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Mander, G. le M.

  Salt, E. W.

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Schuster, Sir G. E.

  Wayland, Sir W. A.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P.

  Scott, Donald (Wansbeck)

  Wabbe, Sir W. Harold

  Mills, Colonel J. D. (New Forest)

  Scott, Lord William (Ro'b'h & Selk'k)

  White, H. Graham (Birkenhead, E.)

  Milner, Major J.

  Sexton, T. M.

  Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

  Moore, Lieut. Col. Sir T. C. R.

  Shaw, Capt. W. T. (Forfar)

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Morgan, R. H. (Stourbridge)

  Silkin, L.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Woodburn, A.

  Mort, D. L.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Munro, P.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Wootton-Davies, J. H.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Wright, Wing Commander J. A. C.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G. (Leicester, W.)

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Somerset, T.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Owen, Major G.

  Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Patrick, Capt. C. M.

  Southby, Comd. Sir A. R. J.

  Mr. Grimston and Mr. J. P. L.

  Thomas.

  NOES.

  Nil.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Mr. Stephen and Mr. Maxton.

  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Extension of age to fifty.)
    Mr. Maxton: I beg to move, in page 2, line 2, to leave out "fifty-one," and to insert "forty-five."
    I move this Amendment because I think that the Government, in putting the age of 51 in the Bill, are allowing their enthusiasm to run away with their common sense. The idea of soldiers of 50 years of age is a foolish idea for all practical purposes. It is true that at 50 you may have men in military uniform, but they will be doing the jobs of civilians. It means putting men into uniform to sit on office stools. I was moved to put this Amendment on the Paper because of an experience which I had. I met in the train a friend of mine, an officer under 45 years of age. He was junior in rank and attached to an anti-aircraft battery in Home Service, stationary service. In common with all other officers over 40 years of age in his battery, he had received, I understood, an intimation that, owing to his advanced years—I am not attempting to quote verbatim the exact
    1630
    words of the letter from the War Office— and the rigorous nature of the work he was called upon to do, it would be desirable that he should resume civilian life.
    I asked in this House whether officers over 41 years of age were being called upon to retire, but I received no very satisfactory answer from the Minister. He denied that any such general circular had been issued. The Financial Secretary to the War Office supports that view. However, since that time, I have had letters from officers all over the country, telling me that, because they are over 41 years of age, they are being edged back into civilian life, not on any grounds of inefficiency or misconduct, or even ill-health, but merely on the ground of age, and no alternative employment is offered to them. It is not a question of saying that a man's present job is too strenuous for him and that he is to be moved to some indoor, lighter or more sedentary task; he is pushed outside altogether, and I find that a lot of those fellows are very upset about it. They

    1631
    are men who at the outbreak of war made substantial sacrifices to take up commissions; they are men who have had previous military experience, and they are now being thrown back into civilian life, and the War Office is not concerned about what they are going to do. That is happening with officers, while at the same time the Minister comes and asks for powers to conscript men for the ranks up to the age of 50, while men of under 45 years of age are being put out of the commissioned ranks.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) puts this interesting anomaly to me. These men of 45, 46 or 47 who have been turned out by the War Office as being too old to be first lieutenants, second lieutenants and captains will be hauled in again under this Measure to be privates, and to walk up and down the barrack yard doing the duties of a recruit. The War Office must have statistics about these things. You are going to take men of 50 years of age into the Army, to subject them to new conditions. A very large proportion of them will be holding important positions in ordinary civilian employment. Generally speaking, the competent man of round about 50 is a settled man with a position of some sort; if he has been an industrial worker, he is a leading hand or foreman or something of that kind; if he has been in business, he is a chief clerk in an office; or, if he has been a commercial traveller, he has a big connection. The man of about 50 is the man who occupies an important position of some sort in civilian life. He is also a man who is likely to be the important head of a household—or, rather, let me put it this way: the head of an important household—with a family coming on, and whose parental responsibilities are great. He is also a man who has got to the stage of settled habits. You are going to call him up, medically examine him, shove him into the ranks, and take him into entirely new conditions, to which he will find greater difficulty in adapting himself than the boy of 18, 19 or 20; and I am prepared to assert that you will have a higher rate of sickness, of complete breakdown and necessary discharge, in that grade. Having discharged such men, you will either have a huge bill to pay through the Ministry of Pensions for breakdown under military service, or you
    1632
    will have a widespread feeling of grievance throughout the country when these men are met with what thousands were met with in the last war and have been met with since. You will tell them that they were passed fit into the Army, and that now they have a bad heart, or a nervous breakdown, or gastric trouble, or varicose veins, or rheumatism in an advanced stage, that all these things are illnesses they might well have got in ordinary civilian life, and they are neither attributable to nor aggravated by their war service, and there is no remuneration for them. As Members can understand, I am not tremendously hot about this. It is not a matter of basic principle. I am suggesting that the age should be five or six years lower, not because I am against war in general, but because I do not think that the Government are doing a sensible thing. They are going to do a thing which will cause a tremendous amount of work, a tremendous amount of disturbance and a tremendous amount of upset in hundreds of thousands of homes, and will produce only a very miserable section of fit men for the Services.
    Sir E. Grigg: The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) has raised two points in this Amendment. May I refer, in the first place, to the retirement of men from the Services as over-age who are actually liable to call-up under this Bill? It applies almost entirely to officers; it might apply, to some extent, to other ranks as well. These men should be dealt with fairly in this matter. I cannot give a complete answer now. This point is a very substantial one. It is being considered, and a full statement will be made about it before the Bill leaves this House. I hope that that will satisfy the hon. Member on that point. I agree with him that it is a very important one, and that we have to be absolutely fair to those who have been serving in the Armed Forces, who have left through no fault of their own, and who are liable to be called up again under this Bill.
    The other point was the argument that there was no case for raising the age to 50. I can assure the hon. Member that the Government do not do these things without very great cause We know very well that there will be disturbance caused by this Bill. We would not cause any of it were it not necessary, in our view, at

    1633
    the present time. There are services to be rendered in the Armed Forces by men of that age of the most valuable kind, in the Pioneer Corps, Home Defence Battalions and so on, similar to those being rendered by the Home Guard, in some cases at a much greater age, except that Home Defence Battalions are whole-time and the Home Guard part-time. There are valuable services in the defence of this country which can be rendered by men of those higher-age groups. The situation which we find is a grave one. We cannot possibly accept this Amendment. The age fixed has been fixed because of grave national necessity.
    Mr. Maxton: Will the hon. Gentleman give a guarantee that men of the higher ages will be set only to tasks for which they are particularly suited?
    Sir E. Grigg: All these men will go through medical examinations, and will be most carefully graded. The duties they perform will depend upon their medical grades. This examination is most carefully carried out. I can give the most complete assurance to the hon. Member on that point.
    Mr. Burke: This Bill will bring in many men who fought in the last war, including silver badge men, who. were wounded. Will some relaxation of the medical examination be considered in respect of these men? Men who were wounded in the last war will not want to go through the whole business of a medical examination unnecessarily.
    Mr. Assheton: I appreciate the hon. Member's point. In practice, however, I do not think it would be easy to do what he suggests. Men who were wounded in the last war will be subject to a medical examination. It is important that the examination should be extremely thorough and complete.
    Mr. Burke: But if men are getting a pension, it will, obviously, be unnecessary to make them undergo any medical examination.
    Mr. Assheton: We will certainly consider the suggestion, but I think it would raise difficulties in administration.
    Mr. Stephen: Can the Under-Secretary for War give an assurance that there will
    1634
    be no such misuse of men as happened in the case to which I have drawn his attention?
    Sir E. Grigg: I do not know what assurance the hon. Member will accept. If he will give the time and place, I will have inquiries made; but I do not think that any general assurance will be of any use.
    Mr. Stephen: I gave the hon. Gentleman the reference to the statement, which was made by a contractor, in this week's issue of the "New Statesman." If a statement is made in a weekly paper which has a fairly good circulation and a certain responsibility, it should be noted by the Department. I ask only that inquiries should be made.
    Sir E. Grigg: I said that I would inquire into any instance that is given. Has the hon. Member sent on the particulars?
    Mr. Stephen: I have not done so, but I certainly will.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. Stephen: I beg to move, in page 2, line 2, at the end, to insert:
    "and in sub-section (3) of section one of the National Service Act, 1941, after the words ' (which relates to postponement of liability to serve),' there shall be added the words, ' and in section five of that Act (which relates to conscientious objectors)'."
    Under the principal Act, the rights of conscientious objectors are as fully secured as one could hope, with a House of Commons constituted like this is, but, in the Act which imposes compulsion for Civil Defence duty, there is no provision made for conscientious objection at all. This Amendment would give the same right to the conscientious objector in regard to Civil Defence service as is given to conscientious objectors under the Act of 1939. When the Act relating to Civil Defence was passed, the position of conscientious objectors was raised, and the Minister refused to accept an Amendment which would have given such protection. Since the Act has been in operation it has been found that there have been many cases where persons who, on grounds of conscience, refuse to undertake this service, have been penalised and there is no remedy against this sort of thing. I think that this principle is one which can be accepted by the Committee and that it must be realised that a man or woman can have a conscientious objection to the

    1635
    making of munitions as well as to military service. The extension of conscription to women makes it all the more necessary that there should be a safeguard put in with regard to those who have a conscientious objection to a particular form of National Service.
    I hope that the Minister will offer some concession in this respect. In the great extension that will take place in the calling-up of people to engage in the manufacture of munitions, it is certain that many will refuse to undertake such work. Unless some provision is made for alternative service, the consequence will be that many thousands of people will be sent to gaol, where they will be a constant burden upon the community for the whole duration of the war. They will simply be in and out of gaol. I have found that the Minister, in dealing with these matters, has shown a fair amount of reasonableness in the past. He has tried to meet difficulties that have arisen in connection with conscientious objection cases, and I am hopeful that with regard to this Amendment he will be able to indicate some concessions which will make it absolutely impossible to send these people in and out of prison because they have a conscientious objection to making munitions, just as they have a conscientious objection to becoming soldiers in the Armed Forces.
    Mr. Assheton: I had the privilege of discussing this matter with the hon. Member when it was raised on a Bill earlier in the year, and the arguments which were used on that occasion are appropriate today. It is clear that the absolute conscientious objector is already protected from being called up, whether in the Armed Forces or the Civil Defence Forces. The Amendment which the hon. Member has drafted applies to the conscientious objector who has been registered on condition that he engages in certain civilian work, and it is the clear view of the Government, as it was the clear view of the House a few months ago when the previous Bill was passed, that this is not a case where the Government can make any concessions. Civil Defence is not like service in one of the three Armed Forces of the Crown. There is no doubt that the view of the House on that particular point was absolutely firm—that there-
    1636
    should be no exemption from Civil Defence service for a conscientious objector who is conditionally registered. Therefore, I cannot accept the Amendment which the hon. Member has put forward. I would like to add that the Amendment, as drafted, does not in any case apply to industry.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. Sorensen: I beg to move, in page 2, line 2, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that no person shall be liable to be called up by virtue of this Section who served in the armed forces during the war of nineteen hundred and fourteen to nineteen hundred and eighteen and who, in the opinion of a hardship tribunal, is engaged in any occupation likely to assist the effective prosecution of the war."
    I move this Amendment because I am quite sure that many people in this country at the present time have sad memories of the past. There is no section of the community which has this sad reflection, tinged with cynicism, more than those covered by this Amendment. Many feel deeply hurt that men who fought in the last war, and endured so many burdens and survived, should now be called upon to do perhaps the same work in this war. It may be that some will volunteer, but others will feel that for reasons which they think are acceptable their position should be recognised. It is true that some will be covered by application to hardship tribunals, but many will be turned down. There will be a minority who will fail in their application and who will be faced with the extraordinary paradox that within the years of their lifetime they will have been called upon to render armed service to the Crown on two different occasions. I ask the Minister to consider this Amendment sympathetically. If he can see his way to accept it, or to give some assurance that those covered by it will have sympathetic consideration, it will give satisfaction to many hundreds, indeed thousands, of ex-Service men in the country.
    Mr. Assheton: I am sure some Members of the House will sympathise with the view expressed by the hon. Member, but I cannot help pointing out to the Committee that if we accepted this Amendment, we should be negativing the whole advantage of raising the age group from

    1637
    41 to 51. Nearly all the men between these ages served in the last war, and if we excluded them, the intake would be very small indeed. There is another point of difficulty about accepting the Amendment. Hardship committees, to which the hon. Member referred, are set up only for the purpose of dealing with the actual question of hardship and are not suited to deal with the question of whether work is of national importance or not. I am not, however, saying that that objection is an insuperable one if we could have found some way out of the other objection.
    Mr. J. J. Davidson: Has the Department received any representations at all from ex-Servicemen's organisations with regard to this Amendment?
    Mr. Assheton: So far as I am aware, no representations have been received; I have not received any myself.
    Mr. Davidson: While agreeing with, and recognising the sentiments of, my hon. Friend, I would like to point out that so far as I know there is no desire on the part of ex-Service men in the country to take any advantage whatever of the conditions operating in this war. There are hon. Members who served in the last war, as I did myself, who would never dream of taking any advantage out of the nation's distress and to the detriment of the young men, who have been taken from their homes and from industry in order to undertake their full responsibility. While I recognise my hon. Friend's sentiments, I think his Amendment is ill-advised and does not represent the views of the ex-Service men. In the last war, their service was on a voluntary basis, and they can be looked upon as men who have always been anxious to undertake their full responsibilities and their share in the nation's work. I feel that any hon. Member who moves an Amendment of this kind ought first of all to consult the ex-Service men's associations and consider the service which those men have given to the country before asking that they should be placed in any privileged position.
    Mr. R. Morgan: I should like to reinforce what has been said by the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Davidson). It is my privilege to be associated
    1638
    with a number of ex-Service men's associations, and I believe that if this Amendment had been brought before them, it would have caused feelings of shame and resentment. I do not feel that the Amendment expresses what these men wish, and I cannot understand why the hon. Member who moved it should have imagined that it did. I should like to register my protest against the Amendment.
    Mr. Sorensen: I should like to assure the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Mr. Morgan) that it was largely because of the number of letters I received on this point that I moved the Amendment, suggesting not the withdrawal of these men from all activity in the war, but merely asking that they should be given the privilege to engage in industrial work.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. Silkin: I beg to move, in page 2, line 13, to leave out from "Act" to the end of the Clause, and to insert:
    "he may within seven days after a proclamation under Section one of the principal Act, whereby he becomes liable to be called up for service, make an application for a postponement certificate notwithstanding that the application is made more than two days after the completion of his medical examination."
    Under Sub-section (2, b), if a man has had his medical examination and has not made an appeal for a postponement certificate, and then becomes 41 years of age, he will not be liable. According to the Amendment, if the man now becomes liable he will have a right of appeal to the hardships tribunal as a matter of course. Sub-section (2, b) provides that he may appeal if the Minister, in all the circumstances, thinks that it is appropriate so to do, and if he is satisfied that the delay in making the application is not related to the grounds thereof. I have not been able to understand what that provision means. When a man who is over 41 is called up for military service, he should have an absolute right of appeal to a hardship tribunal and should not be penalised because he has already had his medical examination and did not appeal at that time. He may not have appealed at that time becuse he knew he would not be liable to service as he was about to attain the age of 41. While recognising that the Minister of Labour is a very reasonable person and that he would not wish to

    1639
    penalise anyone in this way, one must recognise that the provisions of this Bill are to be administered by officials who may take a different view of what is or is not reasonable. I feel that it would be possible for an official to say to a man that he could not appeal to a hardship tribunal because he did not appeal when he had his medical examination. I hope that this small concession will be granted and that a man in these circumstances will be given an absolute right of appeal to a hardship tribunal within seven days after the Proclamation.
    Mr. Stephen: On a point of Order. It appears to me that this manuscript Amendment comes after the Amendment on the top of page 5.
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams): As far as I can make out, the Amendment fits in to this part of the Bill.
    Mr. Assheton: I think that my hon. Friend is under some misapprehension, because the Amendment which he has moved limits the powers of the Minister more severely than is the case under the Clause as it stands. The Amendment asks for seven days' grace, whereas under the Clause, as drafted, the Minister has the right to accept the application up to the time that the enlistment notice is received. Therefore I do not think my hon. Friend would think it wise to press his Amendment.
    Mr. Silkin: I realise that I am putting my hon. Friend at a disadvantage, but it is a disadvantage from which we are all suffering, owing to the speed with which this Bill is being put forward. Perhaps he will look at the Amendment again to see whether he can meet the point. I do not want him to come to a decision now, but if he will give me an assurance that a man who has reached the age of 41 shall have a right of appeal, I am prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
    Mr. Assheton: Although this manuscript Amendment has only recently come to my notice, I am confident that the opinion I have expressed is accurate. If, by chance, on further consideration it turns out not to be so, I will certainly undertake to bring the matter forward during the Report stage to give the hon. Member a further opportunity to state his case.
    Mr. Silkin: On that assurance I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    The Temporary Chairman: I call on the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) to move the Amendment in page 2, line 20, at the end, to add a new subsection.
    Mr. Stephen: On a point of Order. May I submit that the previous Amendment is a fairly substantial one—
    The Temporary Chairman: That has not been selected.
    Mr. Stephen: I am asking you if you will not—
    The Temporary Chairman: We have passed that stage now.
    Mr. Stephen: I understood, when I raised the matter previously, that both Amendments would be taken at that stage, and there has not been any more of the Bill passed than at the stage at which we—
    The Temporary Chairman: We have gone on in the usual way. I am now calling the second Amendment on page 5.
    Mr. Stephen: Yes, you have called the succeeding Amendment, but I have asked you to reconsider your decision not to call the Amendment at the top of the page.
    The Temporary Chairman: We cannot discuss whether it is selected or not. We just have to abide by the Ruling.
    Mr. Stephen: Again and again Members have raised the question of an Amendment not being taken and have put forward considerations asking the Chair to reconsider its Ruling. I am only following the ordinary practice in that respect. If you rule that, in spite of any argument that I might put forward for reconsideration, you are not prepared to do so, I have to accept that, but it is done repeatedly.
    The Temporary Chairman: That is the position.
    Mr. Stephen: You have not allowed me to put the arguments that I wish to put.
    The Temporary Chairman: I must ask the hon. Member to let: us carry on the proceedings. I do not accept his position.
    Mr. McKie: On a point of Order. Is it not a fact that the House has granted to all Chairmen the right to

    1641
    select what Amendments they see fit to accept?
    The Temporary Chairman: That is the position. The first Amendment has not been selected, and I am calling on the second.
    Mr. Maxton: I beg to move, in page 2, line 20, at the end, to add:
    "(3) Where a person who became liable to be called up by virtue of this Section is called up for whole-time service in the Armed Forces and is over the age of forty years, he shall only be posted to static and sedentary duties."
    I first want to raise this point with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury. I think it is desirable that we should know how long it is proposed to sit.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. James Stuart): It was the hope and intention of the Government that we might complete Clause 2. There is no intention of proceeding further than that. It was hoped that we should have reached it by now.
    Mr. Maxton: It can be easily disposed of, because in the White Paper the Government laid down the principle embodied in the Amendment. In reply to the previous Amendment the Parliamentary Secretary stated that men over 40 would be engaged in sedentary and static duties. I am asking that what is stated in the White Paper as being the case and what he himself has stated the Government will be ready to accept should be given statutory effect to.
    Mr. Assheton: I am glad that the hon. Member feels that the matter can be disposed of speedily. The Government can dispose of it in that way by rejecting the Amendment, which seeks to give statutory sanction to a statement made by the Prime Minister the other day and repeated in the White Paper that men over 40 would be posted only to static and sedentary duties. It is clear that that must be left to administration, because the words used are not capable of sufficiently exact definition to enable us to put them into the Bill. I do not know whether the hon. Member will appreciate that difficulty, but it is one which the Government have not found themselves able to overcome.
    Mr. Stephen: The Parliamentary Secretary has enunciated an extraordinary doctrine. The White Paper contains the
    1642
    definite pledge to the men between 40 and 50 that they will be posted only to static and sedentary duties, and then the Parliamentary Secretary has the audacity to say, that we cannot define what static and sedentary duties are. Nobody knows. This pledge means nothing. It is intended to mislead the Committee and the country in the most shameful way. Other Members may be sufficiently acquiescent to the Government to put up with treatment like that, but I at least have made my protest and have done what I could in order to get more serious consideration of this Measure. If these duties are indefinable, the pledge means nothing and is simply bunk.
    Amendment negatived.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Silverman: I apologise to hon. and right hon. Members for not being in my place a short time ago to move an Amendment which stood in my name. I was not very far away, but it had been represented to me that there was still time before the Amendment would be called. I wonder whether I might appeal to the Minister to reconsider this matter. We are not asking very much of him. He could grant the concession without losing anything from the national effort. We are asking for justice, in that, where a man who served in the Armed Forces in the last war and who is at this moment engaged, not merely in his own opinion, but in the opinion of an independent tribunal, upon work useful in the effective prosecution of the war, he should not be called upon a second time to give up whatever he is doing in order to serve again in the Armed Forces.
    I suggest to the Minister that he could make this concession without in the least impairing the organisation of the national effort, which he seeks to organise by means of this Measure. We are not asking that he should exempt anybody who is not usefully employed, or is not usefully employed upon war work; that is an essential condition. Such person should, at this moment, be employed usefully upon vital war work.
    The Temporary Chairman: We have had a very full discussion on the point. I do not wish unnecessarily to limit the hon. Gentleman, but I would point out that we have discussed the matter fully.
    Mr. Silverman: I am much obliged to you, Mr. Williams. I appreciate that I was probably going into the matter in too great detail, in view of the fact that the Amendment had been moved already. I only wanted to beg the Minister to reconsider this matter, either now or before we pass the Bill. After all, this will not be a very popular Measure. People are willing to make any sacrifice necessary, but if at any point the burden can be eased in ways that satisfy people, a good deal will have been done towards smoothing the operation of the Bill. I assure the Minister that many of us have received numerous appeals in this connection. If he would take the opportunity to consider the matter again, I am sure that nothing would be lost, and that a good deal would be gained in national morale.
    Mr. Assheton: I do not think the Committee will wish me to speak at any length on this subject again. I would point out that the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, in the absence of the hon. Member who has just spoken, withdrew it, after hearing the discussion and the views of hon. Members on all sides of the Committee. The views of the Committee coincided entirely with those of the Government.
    Mr. Stephen: I want to speak about the position of those who are called up and wish to make an appeal to a hardship committee. The present procedure is that, if the hardship committee is unanimous, the appeal is finished, but if there is a division on the committee, the appeal has to be left to the umpire. It would be for the advantage of everybody if it was always possible to appeal to the umpire. Many of the women who will come under the scheme are not organised industrially in trade unions. Women have been much less well organised in that way than men. Many of them will be young women. I hope the Minister will consider whether applicants in every case cannot have the right of appeal to the umpire. He himself will have the figures of cases where there has been a divided committee, where there has been a right of appeal to the umpire and where that right was not exercised—which was in a good many cases. I am sure that this would afford at least some protection to these new conscripts, and I appeal to the Minister that something should be done to give us this additional safeguard.
    Mr. R. Morgan: Is not that contained here in this Amendment, which refers to a unanimous opinion of the committee? The hon. Member spoke about a difference between the members of the committee; here it says a unanimous decision.
    Mr. Stephen: I am sorry if I have not made it plain to the hon. Member; I hope I made it plain to the Minister. The present position is that if there is a division of opinion in the hardship committee, the applicant automatically has a right of appeal to the umpire, but if the committee is unanimous, there is the right of appeal only with the consent of the committee. I wish the Minister to give the right of appeal to the applicant- in every case, even when the committee is unanimous and might refuse permission for the applicant to go to the umpire.
    Mr. Davidson: There are one or two points which might be emphasised for the Government's consideration. First of all, I want to say once again that I deprecate any special pleading for any particular age-group. My age-group, which I am defending—as a matter of fact, the 41–51 group—by their response have already proved to the Government that they desire no special exemptions, privileges or special pleading. Their response to the Home Guard, and their criticisms even of the Government's policy with regard to the Home Guard, have shown that these men, most of whom served in the last war, form one of the most patriotic, reasonable and factual groups in the community. I myself, and every Member of Parliament who is 41 or 51 or over, would feel very uncomfortable and very embarrassed to say what the Amendment means, at least to say what was meant by previous speakers, namely, that I, a man of 41, 42 or 43, should stand aside from the nation in its distress while a young man of 26 who has built up a business, is married and has a family of one or two is called up to undertake his responsibilities. That is not desired by this age-group. There is, however, one thing which is desired by this age-group, and that is that full consideration should be given to their special circumstances with regard to age. We all know that after the age of 40 minor ailments start— rheumatism, arthritis, troubles of the throat, bronchial troubles and all that sort of thing. The 41–51 age-group cannot be

    1645
    classed physically with the 25–30 group, and it is therefore the duty of the Government to consider the position of these men with regard to pensions.
    I do not want the regular formula of the Ministry of Pensions to be applied to this age-group. It is no use taking a man of 50 years of age and, after two or six months' service, finding he is physically incapable and sending him home, and saying that his troubles or his ailments are not the responsibility of the Army, that they were contracted before he was called up. That would be the most unfair thing which the Government could contemplate for a man who has served his country, who has been through what these men went through in the last war. Some of them contracted troubles which are not apparent, which cannot be seen, which are not quite apparent to the eye at a first glance. It would be definitely unfair, and the most unkind thing that could be done to that group, for them to be treated as physically fit, A1 young men so far as the pension formula is concerned. Therefore; I trust that this group will receive very careful consideration in that respect from the Ministry, and that the Ministry of Labour and the Service Departments concerned will keep in very close touch with the Pensions Minister and avoid that friction which will certainly be caused if the Ministry of Pensions operates the usual formula with regard to this group.
    There is only one thing I would say to conclude, and that is that so far as this Clause is concerned, you are asking for special service from a group of men, many of whom did not contemplate having to participate actively in this war. Where it is possible the Government should try to fit them into occupations in the Army, and I believe they will, because it would certainly be nonsensical, and I do not believe that even military intelligence is so stupid, though I have criticised it in the past, as to send them abroad into fields of battle where their physical disabilities would count against them, or into any zone of that description. I do know that there are sample openings for men of that age group in training, in the instructive sense, and in the sense of even guiding many younger men in their ordinary social life in the Army. Educationally, socially, and in every way there are many occupations for
    1646
    men of that description. I trust that the Government will see that these occupations are granted to that type of man who has already served his country.
    Sir E. Grigg: As the hon. Member made a special appeal to the War Office, I should like to give him an assurance in the fullest terms for which he asked. The present tendency is to scale up fitness required in field service so high that there is hardly any prospect of such a man being looked at for such service. The medical condition of these men and the disabilities from which they are bound to be liable in view of their age will be taken into the fullest consideration. That will most certainly be done. I cannot give him any answer on the question of pensions, but I will undertake to put it to the Minister of Pensions as one which deserves reasonable consideration.
    Mr. Davidson: Cannot some method of collaboration between the Service Departments and the Ministry of Pensions with regard to this particular group be set up?
    Sir E. Grigg: We will consider that.
    Mr. Assheton: In answer to the point made by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) about hardship committees and his wish to give the right of appeal in every case, I suggest that that would be a very unwise procedure for the Committee to adopt. The procedure at the present time is the same as under the Unemployment Insurance Act Court of Referees, which has worked satisfactorily. An impossible burden would be put on the umpire if we were to adopt the procedure which my hon. Friend has suggested.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. James Stuart): I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
    I regret that we have had to sit rather later to-day than had been hoped, but I hope that it will be possible to complete the Committee and remaining stages of this Bill on the next Sitting Day. This would avoid our having to sit on an additional day, and would, I think, meet the general convenience of the House.

    1647
    Although it is not possible to give any guarantee, it is hoped that that will be possible.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: So far as I speak for those with me, although I can, of course, give no pledge, we hope that it will be possible to get through the remaining stages on the next Sitting Day, and so allow the hope of the Patronage Secretary to be realised.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    It being after the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE (OFFICERS, EXCESS PAYMENTS).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (OFFICERS, EXCESS PAYMENTS).
  AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (CONTRACTS).
  AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (CONTRACTS).
MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.
  POLITICAL WARFARE EXECUTIVE.
  POLITICAL WARFARE EXECUTIVE.
  ALIEN STAFF.
  ALIEN STAFF.
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.
  ADVERTISING CIRCULARS (HOSPITALS).
  ADVERTISING CIRCULARS (HOSPITALS).
  COTTON INDUSTRY (CONTROL).
  COTTON INDUSTRY (CONTROL).
  BARBADOS (GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE).
  BARBADOS (GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE).
  GRENADA (LAUNDRY WORKERS).
  GRENADA (LAUNDRY WORKERS).
  WEST INDIES (LEPROSY).
  WEST INDIES (LEPROSY).
  TEMPORARY SCHOOLS.
  TEMPORARY SCHOOLS.
  FINLAND (BRITISH SUBJECTS).
  FINLAND (BRITISH SUBJECTS).
  GREAT BRITAIN AND BULGARIA.
  GREAT BRITAIN AND BULGARIA.
  NEW OMNIBUSES (ALLOCATION).
  NEW OMNIBUSES (ALLOCATION).
BRITISH ARMY.
  OFFICERS (AGE LIMIT RETIREMENTS).
  OFFICERS (AGE LIMIT RETIREMENTS).
  OFFICERS (PROMOTION).
  OFFICERS (PROMOTION).
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  RABBITS AND POULTRY.
  RABBITS AND POULTRY.
  CARROTS (COOKING RECIPES).
  CARROTS (COOKING RECIPES).
  ORANGES.
  ORANGES.
  CANNED FOODS.
  CANNED FOODS.
  SECOND-HAND SCHOOL CLOTHING.
  SECOND-HAND SCHOOL CLOTHING.
  MALAYA (TIN ORE, EXPORT DUTY).
  MALAYA (TIN ORE, EXPORT DUTY).
  COLONIAL SUGAR (PREFERENCE).
  COLONIAL SUGAR (PREFERENCE).
  BRITISH HONDURAS (APPEALS).
  BRITISH HONDURAS (APPEALS).
NATIONAL FINANCE.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  POST OFFICE PENSIONS.
  POST OFFICE PENSIONS.
AGRICULTURE.
  LIME SUPPLIES, SOUTH WALES.
  LIME SUPPLIES, SOUTH WALES.
  SUGAR BEET (LEAKE DRILL).
  SUGAR BEET (LEAKE DRILL).
  RACEHORSES (RATIONS).
  RACEHORSES (RATIONS).
WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
  POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION (CONSULTATIVE PANEL).
  POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION (CONSULTATIVE PANEL).
  WAR-TIME BUILDING.
  WAR-TIME BUILDING.
  HOSTEL CAMPS, SCOTLAND (EQUIPMENT).
  HOSTEL CAMPS, SCOTLAND (EQUIPMENT).
  BRICKS (STANDARDISATION).
  BRICKS (STANDARDISATION).
  STATELESS PERSONS (NANSEN PASSPORTS).
  STATELESS PERSONS (NANSEN PASSPORTS).
  MAN-POWER, NORTHERN IRELAND.
  MAN-POWER, NORTHERN IRELAND.
  WAR ACTIVITIES (MEDICAL CERTIFICATES).
  WAR ACTIVITIES (MEDICAL CERTIFICATES).
  NEGLECTED CHILDREN, SELSTON.
  NEGLECTED CHILDREN, SELSTON.
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
BRITISH NAVAL LOSSES.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD MOYNE): My Lords, I have to announce that the report has been received from Singapore that His Majesty's Ship "Prince of Wales" and His Majesty's Ship "Repulse" have been sunk while carrying out operations against the Japanese attacking Malaya. No details are yet available except those contained in the Japanese official communiqué, which claims that both ships were sunk this morning by air attack.

INDIA (FEDERAL COURT JUDGES) BILL. [H.L.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to extend the power of the Governor-General of India to make acting appointments of Judges of the Federal Court. I move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

ARTHUR JENKINS INDEMNITY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, in pursuance of the Resolution of yesterday:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I now move that the Bill be read a second time. Your Lordships will desire a very short explanation of the contents and purpose of this Bill. This is an Indemnity Bill to protect a single individual from the severe consequences which might otherwise following
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to an innocent mistake. Mr. Jenkins was elected member of the House of Commons for the constituency of Ponty-pool, and he was invited to become the Chairman of an Arbitration Board, being nominated for that purpose both by the employers and the work people in connection with a particular ordnance factory. He accepted that position as a matter of public duty. There is no salary attached to the post, but there is provision that on each occasion upon which the Chairman sits he is entitled to receive a small fee from public funds, though in fact Mr. Jenkins has declined to take a penny piece.
Our law dealing with offices of profit, and with the circumstances in which a Member of Parliament loses his seat if he accepts an office of profit, is exceedingly complicated, and in some parts technical and obscure. Quite recently there has been a Committee of the House of Commons presided over by Sir Dennis Herbert which has been investigating this whole question, and recently it has made a most valuable Report. To give one example of how strange the present law is, it may surprise some people to learn that an unpaid Lord of the Treasury holds an office of profit, because the nature of the post is such that payment might be attached to it. Similarly, Mr. Jenkins had not the slightest intention of disregarding the law, nor had those who were concerned in his appointment, but in fact, by accepting this position, although he is paid nothing for his services, he has accepted an office of profit and he has forfeited his seat in the House of Commons, and it may be, if he has since sat and voted—as to which I know nothing—he runs the risk of very heavy penalties. In such a case, which only rarely occurs, it is the practice of Parliament to grant relief in the only way in which it can be granted, and that is by the passing of an Indemnity Act. That is the purpose of this Bill. It was passed through all its stages in the other House yesterday, and I feel that it will be the desire of all your Lordships that it shall pass into law in a minimum period of time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

DUMFRIES ELECTRICITY (EXTEN SION) ORDER, 1941.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HAPPISBURGH AND BACTON (NORFOLK) COAST PROTECTION ORDER, 1941.
THE MINISTER OF WAR TRANSPORT (LORD LEATHERS): My Lords, I beg to move the approval of the Special Order standing in my name.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday. be approved.—(Lord Leathers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (QUOTA AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1941.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PATENTS AND DESIGNS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order); Amendments (Privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

THE HOME GUARD.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD THE EARL OF MANSFIELD rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to make membership of the Home Guard compulsory, save in exceptional circumstances, for all men, up to the age of 45, who are excused military service for any reason other than on medical grounds, and who do not belong to any part-time Civil Defence Service, and to move for Papers.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, when I originally sent in the Motion standing in my name, I had no idea that within some three days of doing so a statement would be made which apparently covers the point that I wished to argue before your Lordships. I fear that it would be presumptuous on my part to suggest that it was a case of cause and effect, but the question naturally arose of whether there was any need, therefore, to persist with my Motion. On consideration, I decided that it would be well that the Motion should remain upon the Paper and be briefly discussed, since the very welcome decision of His Majesty's Government is going to bring forward certain extremely important problems in connexion with the application of the new Regulations to the Home Guard. My qualifications for raising the matter at all are simply these, that, like many other people who were unable to find more active employment, I joined the Home Guard as a volunteer on the day it was started, and have been successively section leader, platoon commander and company commander. I am therefore, I think, in a position to speak from the point of view of how the new situation will affect the working of a Home Guard company, particularly in the rural areas; and, mutatis mutandis, I think that most of my observations will be more or less applicable to conditions in the more thickly-populated districts, of which I have no personal experience as far as the administration of the Home Guard is concerned.
There are really only two points that I wish to bring to the notice of your Lordships, and I understand from my noble friend, Lord Croft, that he will naturally be unable to make any definite reply to these points; but he has been kind enough to promise that he will lay them before the proper authority for consideration before a final statement is made here and

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in another place. The first point is that it is obvious that, if there is to be conscription for the Home Guard, there must also be compulsory attendance at a certain number of drills, parades, or lectures each month. It has been fairly widely stated in the Press that the period is likely to be some 48 hours per month as a minimum. Even the British Press, however, is not always infallible, and it may be that this estimate is merely intelligent anticipation; but I wish to suggest to your Lordships that, should it be correct, 48 hours per month as a minimum is quite an impossible figure. It would mean that were each member of the Home Guard to attend every other night, his period of attendance would have to be for three hours on each occasion. As the great majority of members of the Home Guard of all ages are engaged in whole-time work, very often of national importance, it is hardly reasonable to suppose that they would be able to come every other night; certainly they would not be able to do so in the country areas.
Take, for example, what is admittedly a rather extreme case. Each spring one of my platoons has almost to go into what may be called cold storage for several weeks, simply because that is the lambing season, and nearly all the members of that platoon are hill farmers, shepherds or gamekeepers and others who assist with the lambing. At that season of the year the working day of the shepherd probably starts before four o'clock in the morning and may well finish after ten o'clock at night, and that arrangement lasts for a period of several weeks. Admittedly that is pushing matters to extremes; but at the same time it is quite impossible to expect men engaged in agriculture or forestry, for example, working very long hours, to be able to come home, change into uniform and get themselves clean, have their evening meal, which is probably the principal meal of the day, walk or bicycle a good many miles in many cases, do three to four hours' work, go home again, and be in a fit state to start on their normal vocation the following day. I would most emphatically suggest that any compulsory figure should be of a fairly low nature, say not more than about 20 hours per month, and it should be left to each Battalion Commander, in consultation with his Company Commanders,
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to fix the number of hours which can be reasonably put in by the men under his command.
Next we come to an even more important point. Now that, somewhat belatedly, National Service is to be applied compulsorily, practically all round, the position of officers and non-commissioned officers in the Home Guard between the ages of 40 and 50 is going to become one of very great importance, and I do suggest that most careful consideration must be given to the advisability of very likely almost wholesale exemptions of such men. provided they are in other ways justifying their existence. The reason is that there are a good many men in the Home Guard—most of them in fact—who are either middle-aged or up to quite old age. The number who are really fit for active service in the field for a period of days or weeks is comparatively small, and, while we are perfectly confident that any invasion that is ever made in this country will be effectively repelled and the invaders destroyed to the last man, neither the Navy nor the Air Force has ever made any attempt to promise—indeed has expressly said it could not promise—that considerable forces could not be landed from the sea or from the air in certain areas in this country, forces which, although they would be rounded up pretty rapidly, might still give very considerable trouble and might hold limited districts for a period of days, or even weeks, before being exterminated.
During such a period, if such an invasion ever came to pass, the Home Guard would of course be on active service. Their conditions would be difficult. Their headquarters, platoons, companies, even battalions would very likely, particularly in the remoter areas, be no longer in comfortable buildings but in dilapidated cowsheds, quarry holes and the like, and perhaps a number of these men in a period of bad weather would be unable to stand exposure, with little food, and none of it hot. Moreover, even if the matter did not become as serious as that, even if they were merely kept at action stations in anticipation of an invasion, which very likely might never materialize, it would still mean throwing, for a period possibly of weeks, a very severe strain on these elder men, and it would be most unfortunate if a large proportion of the

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younger officers—using the word "younger" as implying men under fifty—were to be removed, because it might well mean that there would be very few substitutes to take their places.
Furthermore, possibly more important is the question of the training of the Home Guard. I do not know how many hundreds of thousands of men the new Regulations are likely to bring into the ranks of the Home Guard. Very likely the War Office itself has not yet any idea of what the numbers may be, but those numbers are bound to be very considerable. The men will be almost all completely untrained, and they are therefore going to require to be drilled in recruit classes. That is to say, in many areas the existing number of squads, classes, lectures, and drills will have to be virtually doubled. At the same time all the existing Home Guard detachments will have to be continued with their training, which is becoming ever more intensive, and it is going to be very difficult, even under present conditions, to find enough qualified instructors. For a long time we have had the most extraordinarily valuable and encouraging help given from the Regular Army, and I would like to express here my great gratitude to our own local regiment and to all the other battalions who have been stationed in our area for the help they have given, without which training would have been virtually impossible.
But we have been told that this help from the Regulars, at least on the scale which we have had, could be only of a temporary nature, and we have been instructed, and very rightly instructed, that it is our duty to provide as quickly as might be enough instructors from our own ranks, both officers and non-commissioned officers, who would be able to take over the duties hitherto performed by officers and non-commissioned officers of the Regular Army. This is particularly important in view of the fact that the Home Guard is provided with a variety of weapons, many of which do not come within the scope of the Regular Army at all, and the Regular Army docs not know how to work them. The only instructors we have, therefore, are the Home Guard themselves, who have been to the various training schools or who have undergone courses of instruction in order to learn all about these weapons and how to use them, and, most important of all,
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how to teach their men to use them. More weapons of a kind unknown to the Army are promised to us in the near future. I think your Lordships will agree that the public discussion of these weapons is not advisable. I merely state the fact that they are coming, we hope in the near future—very nice weapons, and of a very formidable kind, but they are all going to mean more instructors, and all these instructors will have to be Home Guards. Some of these Home Guards have already been trained, others are training. On Saturday of this week I, for example, following most of the officers of our battalion, am going off on a week's course in order to learn about these weapons.
If now you are going to call up the officers and non-commissioned officers of the Home Guard, either those who are between the ages of forty and fifty or younger men who up to the present have been exempt, you are certainly going to make the carrying on of the present training very difficult indeed, if not impossible, and you are going to render entirely impossible the training of those raw recruits whom we must expect in the next few months in very large numbers. That is why I would ask His Majesty's Government to consider very carefully whether any good purpose is going to be served by taking efficient guerrilla fighters who have been trained for the purpose of instructing their men, not for parade ground drill, but in the quickest and most efficacious manner of killing Germans, and transferring them, not to forces which are going on active service but to the Balloon Barrage, the guarding of aerodromes and the like. 1 submit that fully trained Home Guard officers and noncommissioned officers are going to do far more good where they are, and that if they are removed in large numbers the efficiency of the Home Guard as a whole is bound to be impaired.
The situation is likely to become more dangerous as far as this country is concerned. The German onrush in Russia has been definitely stemmed, and the Germans themselves admit that no progress is possible. We must therefore expect that they will turn their attention here. The Far Eastern situation, with the very unpleasant news that we have just heard this morning, is a very menacing one, and although 1 have no doubt that there, as elsewhere, we shall ultimately be triumphant, and perhaps before very

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long, there is likely to be a period of many weeks, if not months, of acute anxiety, and for that reason we must have our home defences in a state of complete efficiency. I hope, therefore, that nothing will be done to impair the efficiency of the Home Guard.
There is just one other point. It may be Scottish obtuseness, but I must say that in my part of the world we were not greatly amused by the Prime Minister's promise that we might be provided with maces and pikes. That was all very well eighteen months ago, when we were formed, and when the original Home Guard detachments might well have qualified, most of them, for the description, "Heath Robinson's Own"; but we are entitled to something a little better now. One of the causes why, in rural areas, recruiting has not been better has been that men, when approached to join, have asked, "Shall I get a rifle?" When the reply comes in the vernacular, roughly speaking, "Not a hope," they then say, "Well, I am not going to join." You cannot really blame them. I think we are entitled to expect that more arms will be made available at a fairly early date. It is going to be of very little use training the large numbers of men who are going to be trained unless these men are going to have at least some proportion of weapons which will enable them to take the field as an active force. These considerations are all I wish to lay before your Lordships to-day. The noble Lord has promised that he will lay them before the requisite quarters, and I am content to leave the matter in his hands. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will agree with the great part of the noble Earl's speech. Speaking for myself, I am in very full agreement with him, though I cannot support the Motion which he has placed on the Paper, for the reasons which I shall briefly describe. I understand that His Majesty's Government, according to the latest White Paper, are taking powers in certain areas where there is a shortage of man-power to direct recruits into the Home Guard, and therefore the main object of the noble Earl will be met in these particulars areas. But where there are plenty of recruits—and my noble friend the Under-Secretary knows quite
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well that in many districts there is a long waiting list of men who wish to come into the Home Guard but have to wait because establishments are complete—at least let us preserve this voluntary service. The noble Earl has described the self-sacrificing efforts of the officers, noncommissioned officers, and volunteers in his own district to make themselves efficient, but that is because it is a voluntary force. If you introduce compulsion into this voluntary, unpaid force you destroy something which is very precious.
The other observation I venture to make is that the War Office should take very seriously all that the noble Earl has said, and what has been said in your Lordships' House by other noble Lords, as to the need to increase the equipment and weapons of the Home Guard. In some districts they are well equipped and well armed; in others there is still a great deal required. This is a most serious matter. I do not know whether the idea is that only the coastal areas shall receive their full equipment and that the inland areas do not matter. As I see it, the greatest danger will be in the inland areas in the case of trouble. That is where the airborne invasion will probably descend if it comes—great raiding parties sent by-air—and the battalions in the inland districts need arms just as much as those in the coastal areas. Really it is a very serious matter indeed. The noble Earl spoke of every man requiring a rifle. That is all right. The rifle is an admirable weapon, but there are other weapons, besides rifles, and I cannot refrain from telling your Lordships the story, if you do not know it already, of the German airman prisoner who saw a body of men marching about with rifles. He laughed, and was asked why he was laughing—was it because he was pleased to be captured? His reply was, "We look upon the rifle as only being useful for ceremonial purposes." That is an exaggeration, because a rifle in the hands of an expert shot, especially in the mountains of Scotland, is the best possible weapon; but for street fighting, for mopping-up parachutists and so on, there are other weapons of great importance besides the rifle. These we are short of in the Home Guard, and these we require. I hope my noble friend the Under-Secretary, who is aware of the fact, will press on the powers that be the need, now more than ever, of making a great effort to provide the necessary equipment

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for the Home Guard, and the most modern deadly weapons you can give them.
The preparations which the Germans have made for landings are reported to be very great indeed The figure has been given of 100,000 cheap crash aeroplanes for landing troops. They do not know whether the aeroplanes will get off again or not, but they are prepared to crash them here. Then there are the gliders which can carry ten or twelve soldiers each. The number in preparation this winter is stated to be of the order of 100,000. If there is anything like 100,000 aircraft available for this work they can send a very large force to this country in great raids. I am not worried myself about the conquest of this island. I think we are far too strong for any Army the Germans can bring by sea or air, but I am worried about the amount of damage which can be done by great raiding parties sent by air, and we have the new lesson of what is happening in the Far East to reinforce what we saw in Greece and Crete. The quick answer, the ready answer, to the great air-borne raiding party attempting to blow up bridges and destroy towns and factories is the Home Guard, but the Home Guard must be armed with the most deadly weapons available, and the force must be made up of men of great devotion and resolution, as I am sure they are. That is why I reinforce the plea of the noble Earl and urge—here I believe I am speaking for my colleagues—that, wherever possible, let us preserve the voluntary spirit and the fine patriotism that inspire the Home Guard to-day, and will continue to inspire it in the future.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for the manner in which he has placed his case before us, and I think your Lordships will all agree that he made his three main points with very great clarity. Two of them have been emphasized by the noble Lord opposite, and I can assure him also that everything that has been said to-day by noble Lords who have taken an active part in Home Guard work will naturally receive our earnest consideration. As has already been stated in another place, the National Service (No. 2) Bill will include statutory power to direct men between the ages of
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eighteen and fifty to serve in the Home Guard in areas where it is necessary, and to direct them to attend for the duties and training necessary to their efficiency. This power will be exercised by regulation, and opportunity for debate will be given if necessary.
I may mention here that any figures which the noble Earl may have read in the Press are certainly not official. I was myself very surprised to hear the numbers, etc., laid down, and it would be wise for us all to wait until the Regulation is issued. I would add that compulsory service in the Home Guard, being armed service, will be subject to all the rights of appeal and exemption already laid down in the National Service Act. The Prime Minister last week made it abundantly clear that the Government attach the utmost importance to the Home Guard. He described it as our great prop and standby against invasion, and particularly invasion by air-borne troops carried in gliders or crashable aircraft. Since that speech was delivered events have occurred which immensely strengthen the need for the best equipped and most highly trained Home Guard which we can secure without dislocating the industries essential to our war effort. The noble Earl, by calling attention to this question, gives me the opportunity of saying that his views will be most carefully noted and considered. He will realize, as indeed he has suggested, that until the Regulation is issued I am unable to make a fuller statement at this stage. But we hope and expect that the ranks of the Home Guard in country districts where there may still in some cases be a shortage will speedily be filled with adequate reserves for all eventualities.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, before asking leave to withdraw my Motion there are one or two observations I should like to make. Firstly, in regard to the observations of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Strabolgi), with reference to the rifle, I feel that the noble Lord rather underrates its use in modern war, and even the bayonet, which the clever young men who now set themselves forth to be military experts tell us is a completely useless weapon, has been proved in Crete and elsewhere, to be far from useless at close quarters; it has in fact been shown to be just as formidable as ever it was, and just as much disliked by the

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Germans. For the rough country in which a great portion of the Home Guards have to carry out their operations, the rifle is absolutely essential, simply because, even if you had a supply of a very large number of very light automatics, which I hope will be the case, it is very doubtful whether the men would be able to get enough ammunition to enable them to work those guns so as to keep up a continuous rate of fire.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am sure the noble Earl does not wish to misrepresent me. I admitted that the rifle in expert hands had a very great use, and I particularly mentioned its use in the highlands of Scotland and in other open country.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: I still maintain that the rifle is useful in other places—in street fighting for instance, as well as in fighting elsewhere—but I agree that light weapons, such as automatics, are needed in greater number, and I put in a special plea that we should provide that useful little weapon the 2-inch mortar. Then there is the question of compulsion. I entirety agree with the noble Lord opposite. I myself dislike conscription, 1 should have liked our old voluntary system to be possible, but we have had to introduce conscription in order to win this war, and that conscription has had to be extended until it has become practically universal. The Party to which the noble Lord belongs is always very insistent upon every one taking a fair share of what has to be done, and of people being put upon an equality. On this question of fairness, I would like your Lordships very briefly to listen to the story of six small farmers. I could give the names, for this is an actual story.
Four of them joined the Home Guard, two refused to do so. One of them disliked having to turn out at an Alert on a cold November morning, and shortly afterwards resigned. Another has lately resigned because he finds that, with the increased ploughing programme on top of his other work, it is very difficult for him to put in his drills. But the two others, whose circumstances are precisely similar to the other four, continue to come in after their day's work for a distance of several miles over very rough roads when they have been working for many hours at their ordinary occupation. They are
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regular attenders and are among the most satisfactory men I have got. Therefore, I ask, is it fair that the other fellows should escape simply because they do not like to do a lot of extra work on the top of what they are already doing? I submit that they should not be allowed to escape all responsibility for looking after the defence of the country, and that they should not be allowed to do absolutely nothing to help their neighbours. That is why I suggest that compulsion all round would be a fairer method.
There is one other thing the noble Lord opposite said which shocked me. He said—and it was not contradicted by the noble Lord, Lord Croft—that in many areas there is a long waiting list for the Home Guard. If that is correct I consider the War Office is very much to blame. If in any area there is a long waiting list, then new platoons, or companies, or even battalions should have been established long ago. The mere fact that they may not be required in their own areas does not come into the matter. Any man who wishes to join the Home Guard ought to be able to do so.
LORD CROFT: My Lords, if the noble Lord will permit me to interrupt, I should like to say that the reason I did not intervene on that particular subject was that I had no notice that this question of arms was to be discussed. I think, however, that it is necessary for me to say here that we are satisfied that we are getting more arms of every description week by week and month by month, and I hope that will be realized. The noble Lord himself must be aware that this Force grew out of nothing to its vast present strength, and I do not think it is helpful for any one to suggest they could all have been armed immediately. I am very glad to say that a very large increase, especially of automatic weapons, has been coming along. We have machine-guns giving us a greater fire power than I should say we had when we faced the Prussian Guard in 1914. I did not correct the statement that was made about the Home Guard in the big cities and urban areas, because I thought it was generally well known that there were men adequate for the purpose in some cities, and the noble Lord is quite right in saying that there were actually waiting lists. Where there have been forces of the Home Guard in one particular

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city with a waiting list, it has been due, in the past, as we know, of course, to a shortage of arms and equipment. Would it have been an encouragement to them to have taken in men in those particular areas when we were steadily proceeding with the armament of the Home Guard in other more vital areas of this country?
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for what he has said. There is just one other reason why universal conscription would be not only fair but may, in country areas, be very necessary. That is that the numbers have been steadily declining owing to various causes, including death and retirement, and, particularly, the calling up of men; and, moreover, that most valuable institution the Air Training Corps is taking away a considerable number of the lads who would otherwise have joined the Home Guard. I believe I am correct in saying there is no reason why they should not belong to both organizations, but very few can possibly spare the time to attend the drills of both. For this reason I think that if we are to maintain our strength in country areas some form of compulsion will have to be applied, for the reason of fairness as well as for the other reasons I have given. I thank the noble Lord very much for the considerate reply he has given, which was all, I know, that could possibly be expected from him. I therefore beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

CORRESPONDENCE WITH EIRE.
Lord BARNBY: My Lords, I beg to put the question standing in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government if indication can be given of the directions to the Postal Censor with regard to correspondence with Eire, and if these include the prevention of transmission of cuttings from the Press of the Dominions.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (LORD CECIL) (Viscount Cranborne): My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, I would say that the position with regard to the question which he raises is as follows: No one
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without a permit can send by post to Eire cuttings from any newspaper, book or other document. This ban extends to all newspapers, including those of this country and of the Dominions. Correspondence which is not in accordance with this rule is returned to the sender.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, arising out of that answer I would like to draw attention to the fact that it appears to include the transmission of cuttings from the free Press of the Dominions. I realize that difficult considerations arise from the presence of the German Legation in Dublin. I feel compelled to ask my noble friend if he can consider the revision of the instructions given to the Censors with a view to their exercising discretion as to the type of printed literature which falls under this ban. I have heard of cases where the ban includes the transmission of copies of the Official Report of the proceedings of this House to members of your Lordships' House. In those circumstances I suggest that some discretion might be used by the Censors, and 1 hope that my noble friend may be able to indicate that he will give consideration to this suggestion.
LORD CECIL: My Lords, in view of what the noble Lord has said perhaps I may be allowed to explain a little more fully the reasons for the present arrangement. The need arises for a very simple and natural reason—the inability of the Censors under present conditions to spare the time which would be necessary to read through all newspapers in an outgoing mail to make sure that they do not contain some undesirable matter. The present system which has been established was designed to allow reputable and approved publishers holding a permit from the Censorship to export printed matter and—I would emphasize this—all persons who have a bona-fide reason for sending newspapers abroad must do so through permit holders. I suggest that that is the possible reason for the refusal to pass certain copies of the Official Report to which the noble Lord referred. Probably they were not sent through approved permit holders. I think this system is absolutely necessary. The Censors are tremendously overworked now and if they had to read through every page of every newspaper their task would be quite impossible. It was for that reason that this system was established. I hope that in

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the circumstances the noble Lord will not press the matter any further. With regard to the special case of copies of the Official Report, if the noble Lord would like me to make further inquiries I should be delighted to do so, and if he does so desire he will no doubt send me particulars of the case he has in mind.
LORD BARNBY: I thank the noble Lord for his reply, but I feel, in spite of what he has said, that if conditions had been different I should have been inclined to raise the matter again. However, in present circumstances, I will see if I can, give him the information he requires.

SECRET SESSION.
LORD MOYNE: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Secret Session.
Moved, That the House do now sit in Secret Session.—(Lord Moyne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
The Official Reporter then withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House resumed in open Session.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bill received the Royal Assent:
Arthur Jenkins Indemnity.

  WOOL RESERVE.
  WOOL RESERVE.