Sitting of 3 April 1941

Preamble
The House being met, the Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence, through indisposition, of Mr. SPEAKER from this Day's Sitting. Whereupon Sir DENNIS HERBERT, the CHAIRMAN of WAYS AND MEANS, proceeded to the Table, and, after Prayers, took the Chair as DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Standing Order.
NEW WRIT.
For the County of Nottingham (Mansfield Division), in the room of Charles Brown, Esquire, deceased.—[Mr. Whiteley.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.

    REHABILITATION.
    Mr. Martinasked the Minister of Labour whether he is yet in a position to make a statement on the measures he contemplates for the rehabilitation in industry of men discharged by reason of wounds or sickness from the various services of the Crown and of Civil Defence?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): The facilities for vocational training provided by the Ministry's existing training schemes are open to all men who are fit to undergo the training, and it is hoped that considerable numbers of the men discharged in the circumstances indicated by the hon. Member will, after treatment, prove capable of this training. For those of them who require training but are not fit for the existing courses, special courses will be provided as required, either in the Ministry's own training centres or in other institutions or with employers. Details of these courses will be announced in due course.
    Mr. Martin: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what measures he pro-
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    poses to take for the medical treatment of these people, what information will be at their disposal, and what method they are to pursue to obtain treatment?
    Mr. Bevin: That matter has been the subject of consultation between us, and if my hon. Friend will address a Question to the Minister of Health, he will be in a position to give an answer.

    WORKERS (TRANSFERENCE FROM NORTHERN IRELAND).
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the discontent among munition workers at men of military age being brought over from Northern Ireland to work in munition factories; and is he in a position to say how many have come over since the war started?
    Mr. Bevin: A considerable number of workers have been transferred from Northern Ireland to work of national importance in Great Britain. I have had no information that the presence among them of men of military age is generally resented by their fellow workers. As regards the second part of the Question, the information for which my hon. Friend asks is not available.
    Mr. Tinker: Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that there is resentment? This resentment is caused because in many cases these men have been billeted on families whose sons have gone to war. One can understand the feelings of these people in the matter. Can nothing be done to examine this question and put these men in the same position as our lads?
    Mr. Bevin: The question of conscripting men in Northern Ireland is not a matter for my Department. It raises political issues which cannot be answered in reply to a Question. However, if the hon. Member will give me particulars of resentment or difficulties, I will cause my local welfare officer to investigate.
    Mr. Tinker: I will do that.
    Sir Hugh O'Neill: Would it not be better, and much fairer to all concerned, if conscription was applied to Northern Ireland, in conformity with the rest of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. McGovern: Is the Minister aware that the reason for these men coming from Northern Ireland is that they are refused unemployment benefit unless they come and work in this country? Is not the difficulty the result of the action of the.Ministry of Labour rather than that of the men concerned?
    Mr. Bevin: I am not responsible for the administration of the Unemployment Acts in Northern Ireland, and therefore I cannot give an answer.

    GAS.AND ELECTRICITY WORKERS.
    Sir Irving Alberyasked the Minister of Labour to what extent gas workers and electricity workers are exempted from military service?
    Mr. Bevin: The principal occupations in gas manufacture and in electricity supply are at present reserved under the Schedule of Reserved Occupations at the age of 25 or 30.
    Sir I. Albery: Is the Minister aware that some of the smaller gas undertakings are concerned about the loss of men who may be urgently required as a result of enemy action?
    Mr. Bevin: It is now possible for these undertakings and public services, if they will use their initiative, to come forward and meet me and discuss their problems under the Essential Works Order.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES' STAFFS.
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Labour whether, in revising the Schedule of Reserved Occupations, he will have regard to the increase in the number and magnitude of the responsibilities entrusted by Parliament and by the Government to local authorities, whose staffs are already depleted; and whether he will give an assurance that women employed by local authorities will not be diverted to other work before there has been consultation with the authorities concerned?
    Mr. Bevin: I have fully considered the matters referred to in the first part of the Question, in consultation with my right lion. Friend the Minister of Health. As regards the second part of the Question, it is not the intention to move to other
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    work women who are in the full-time employment of local authorities, and whose qualifications are being properly utilised.
    Sir J. Mellor: In the circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman advise other Government Departments to be cautious with regard to the amount of work they put on to local authorities?
    Mr. Bevin: That is not a question for me.

    DISPLACED JUVENILE LABOUR.
    Mr. Gordon Macdonaldasked the Minister of Labour what action he proposes to take for the reabsorption into industry of the displaced juvenile labour, consequent upon the curtailment of non-essential industries?
    Mr. Bevin: The measures for the re-absorption of displaced labour outlined in recent announcements will apply to juveniles as well as to adults. My hon. Friend will appreciate that in addition to the expanding requirements of war production, the calling-up of young men for the Forces causes a demand for juveniles as substitutes. I will, however, keep a special watch on this matter.
    Mr. Macdonald: Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind the fact that this affects Lancashire to an extraordinary degree?
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, I am aware of that, and in view of the effects of the concentration of industry on young people I have directed that special consideration be given to this case.
    Mr. Robert Gibson: Have any steps been taken by my right hon. Friend towards the absorption into industry of golf caddies who are not now required?

    CONCENTRATION OF PRODUCTION.
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings, what steps are taken by his Department to ensure continuity of work in establishments engaged on contracts, particularly contracts involving processes of brass-finishing, for his Department; and whether he has any statement to make regarding co-operation

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    between his Department and other Ministries to achieve the optimum employment of such establishments in the war effort?
    Major Sir James Edmondson (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household): I have been asked to reply. In industries where capacity is limited, requirements are estimated well ahead, and repeat orders are placed whenever possible in time to prevent breaks in production. Close contact with other Departments concerned is maintained, and the Ministry is co-operating in the scheme for the concentration of production which, by eliminating surplus capacity, will make the placing of continuing orders increasingly necessary.
    Mr. Gibson: Would the hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the Ministry of Works and Buildings to the fact that, when a contract placed by that Ministry for auxiliary fine service equipment comes to an end, very valuable skilled labour and essential equipment, specialised plant, are thrown out of work, unless there is co-ordination, so that the labour and plant can be kept in use? Will he see that something is done to prevent that loss to the war effort?
    Sir J. Edmondson: I will ask my Noble Friend to look into the matter.

  CIVIL DEFENCE.

    INTERNEES.
    Mr. Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what steps have been taken to explain to the Australian authorities in charge of internment camps there the difference between victims of Nazi oppression and pro-Nazi, and to secure special treatment or release for the former?
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The Australian authorities were given, before the arrival of the internees, such available information as would assist in their classification. As regards arrangements for release, I would refer my right hon. Friend to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss) on 21st January, and would add that, my representa-
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    tive, Major J. D. Layton, is now in Australia.
    Mr. Wedgwood: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at present the treatment in the camps is on all fours with that of prisoners of war May I ask whether Major Layton has instructions to make a change, or urge such a change, so that there is a distinction between those who are our friends and those who are our enemies?
    Mr. Morrison: I can assure the right hon. Member that, if Major Layton sees things which are capable of improvement and adjustment, he will make friendly representations to the Australian authorities.
    Mr. Wedgwood: Is it not possible to make it clear to the Australians that here we made a distinction between those who are our friends and those who are our enemies before these people were sent out, and that the authorities in Australia might well follow our example?
    Mr. Morrison: Major Layton will be familiar with that fact, and I can assure my hon. Friend that he can rely on his taking suitable friendly action if that is necessary.
    Mr. McGovern: Can any of these people make direct representations to the representative who has been sent there?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. He will be in direct touch with them in the same way as internees are in touch with Mr. Paterson in Canada.
    Miss Rathboneasked the Home Secretary whether, in suitable cases and when recommended by the camp commandant, reliable released internees can be allowed to retain, or resume, as salaried employés, posts of a responsible character which they had filled unpaid during internment?
    Mr. Morrison: I doubt whether what the hon. Lady has in mind is practicable, but if she will submit particulars of any case or cases in which she suggests that the course indicated might be followed, I will consider the matter.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the gradual release of the most reliable internees is depleting seriously the services of the camps and

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    the retention of some of these as salaried workers would be very helpful to the commandants in keeping up the morale and exercising a very useful influence on the remaining internees? I thank the right hon. Gentleman for undertaking to consider cases.
    Mr. Manderasked the Home Secretary under what circumstances release from internment is granted to refugees from Nazi oppression in Category C conditional on their remaining in the employment of a particular firm; and how many have been dealt with in this way.
    Mr. Morrison: Nearly 300 aliens of enemy nationality, whose cases do not fall within any of the categories of eligibility for release set out in the White Paper, have been released under special schemes for employment in work of national importance. These men, being released for special purposes, are required on release to work for a specified employer but may change their employment with the consent of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
    Mr. Mander: Do I understand that there are no persons who have been released solely on condition that they must remain with a particular employer and cannot change?
    Mr. Morrison: They have been released for special purposes on the understanding that they go to work for a particular employer, but they can transfer with the consent of the Minister of Labour. It will be seen that, if aliens are released on certain conditions, it is only fair that we should see to it that those conditions are observed.

    FIRE BOMB FIGHTERS.
    Mr. Keelingasked the Home Secretary whether he has seen a circular, of which a copy has been sent to him, dated 12th February, from the National Society of Operative Printers and Assistants, giving advice to its members as to the terms on which they shall undertake fire-watching duties; and whether he is satisfied with the spirit and degree of cooperation shown in this circular?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I have received a copy of the circular, but I understand that it was issued before the recent consultations
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    between Ministers and representatives of the Trades Union Congress and employers' associations. In the course of these discussions general agreement was reached regarding a number of the matters mentioned in the circular, and certain misunderstandings were removed.

    PROSECUTION; SOUTHAMPTON.
    Mr. Radfordasked the Home Secretary whether his attention had been drawn to the prosecution, last week, at Southampton, of a Miss Mary Tuk, for flashing a torch towards the sky during an air-raid on Southampton, who violently resisted arrest, assaulted a policeman, and shouted abuse of England; and will he, at the expiration of the four months' imprisonment to which she was sentenced, either have her put under restraint or deported to Eire, whence she originally came under a different name?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I have had inquiry made in this case. The offences committed by this woman have been dealt with by prosecution and conviction, and I have no doubt that the sentence imposed by the justices will have a salutary effect. On the information before me, the case is not one in which the public interest requires any such action on my part as my hon. Friend suggests.
    Mr. Radford: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that a woman who behaves as this woman behaved on this occasion will be a constant public menace if she is allowed to be free?
    Mr. Morrison: This was a case where the woman was very naughty and said things she ought not to have said, but the fact is that she has been given four months' imprisonment for the offence. While I reserve the right of internment, if, on security grounds, I think it is necessary, nevertheless I think I must be very careful in accepting the principle that if a citizen has been punished and imprisoned, I should go further.
    Mr. Radford: My right hon. Friend has made no effort to refer to the alternative, that of deporting this woman to her country of origin. Is it right, with losses to civilian life of men, women and children continually taking place, that we should keep at liberty a woman who has deliberately signalled to German airmen when raiding Southampton?
    Mr. Morrison: The answer in regard to deporting her to Ireland is that I have no powers to do so.
    Mr. Radford: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the question again at the earliest possible moment.

    CLYDESIDE.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsayasked the Home Secretary whether he will make an immediate review of the Civil Defence services on Clydeside and also the arrangements for evacuation and communal feeding with a view to securing a greater measure of efficiency and co-ordination?
    Mr. H. Morrison: The experience of the recent raids has already been the subject of close examination and is being examined in all its aspects by the Departments concerned, in consultation with the Regional Commissioner and District Commissioner.
    Mr. Lindsay: Will the right hon. Gentleman pay particular attention in the examination to a closer relation between the Civil Defence services proper and those coming under the Department of Health? Also, who is responsible for seeing that feeding arrangements, which are now under voluntary, statutory and industrial supervision, are co-ordinated? Who is responsible for evacuation? Is it the Regional Commissioner or the local authority, because these questions are exercising considerable attention on Clydeside?
    Mr. Morrison: Supervision of communal feeding is the responsibility of the Ministry of Food. Evacuation is the responsibility of the Department of Health in Scotland. Co-ordination will be effected in Scotland as a whole through the Regional Commissioner. There is the closest relationship between the Secretary of State and myself and the Scottish Department at Edinburgh and the Regional Commissioner. I am shortly going to Scotland, and I hope to confer with all the authorities on the spot.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Would it not be more effective and more efficient if the whole matter was dealt with by the Secretary of State for Scotland?
    Mr. Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman acquaint himself with the remarks
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    of the Minister of Labour yesterday with regard to the serious shortage of canteen arrangements in the docks in that area?
    Mr. Morrison: That would not be my responsibility, but that of the Minister of Transport. It is quite impossible to centralise every function which has any bearing upon Civil Defence. You would just get the machine choked. On the point raised by my hon. and learned Friend opposite, I do not think there is any need for any change in that respect. The appropriate Department does the appropriate job. While I would not press the analogy too far, it might be as unwise to split up the security and strategical considerations of Civil Defence as a national concern as it would be to disconnect the Army in Scotland from its proper contacts with the Imperial General Staff at the War Office.

    SERVICE DEPARTMENTS (BLACK-OUT OFFENCES).
    Mr. Liddallasked the Home Secretary whether he will instruct the civil police to pass on to the War Office and Air Ministry, for disciplinary action, proved complaints of local residents about faulty black-outs of premises under the control of those Departments?
    Mr. H. Morrison: The instructions given to the police provide that when lights are observed in a Service Department's establishment, the matter is reported by the police to the Officer Commanding the establishment or unit concerned. The Service Departments have issued instructions to secure that these reports receive proper attention, and that any necessary disciplinary action is taken.

    ANTI-GAS PRECAUTIONS.
    Mr. Cocksasked the Home Secretary whether he is in a position to say what further steps are to be taken to instruct the public in the correct use of their respirators, and to ensure that they are properly fitted?
    Mr. H. Morrison: A campaign which will be progressive and will include broadcasts, leaflets and other suitable measures has already begun.
    Mr. Cocks: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many gas respirators do not fit? Will he in the next few weeks instruct wardens to give new fittings?
    Mr. Morrison: That must be done through local channels, and instructions have been given. If hon. Members know of places where it has not been done, I shall be glad to look into it. No doubt, if it is in their own constituencies, they will take it up with their local authorities.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that Members of Parliament are giving a suitable lead in the matter?
    Mr. Morrison: I have communicated privately with hon. Members. I think it is, in a sense, a duty on their part to set a good example to the public.
    Mr. Cocksasked the Home Secretary what steps are being taken to ensure that adequate supplies of ointment for dealing with the effects of blister gases are made readily available to the public in case of emergency?
    Mr. Morrison: Bleach ointment has been on sale for some time, and anti-gas ointment No. 2, which is better, is now procurable through any chemist. To meet the needs of those members of the public who do not provide themselves with a supply of ointment, arrangements have been made for bleach cream, which cannot readily be carried in small containers, to be available in the event of emergency at chemists' shops.
    Mr. Cocks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Czecho-Slovakia before Munich every citizen was given a small pocket outfit? Would it not be possible to supply such an outfit to wardens and other Civil Defence workers?
    Mr. Morrison: I will consider the point, but I think the arrangements that we have made are satisfactory.
    Mr. Cocksasked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the results of recent counts made at Manchester of the number of civilians who were carrying respirators, particulars of which have been sent him; and whether he will consider the advisability of making the non-carrying of respirators a punishable offence?
    Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend's suggestion has already been considered, but the difficulties in the way of an order which would be workable and enforceable are great. It has been thought
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    preferable, at any rate for the time being, to rely on the good sense of the public once the urgency of the matter has been brought home to them by the measures which are now being developed.
    Mr. Cocks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his broadcast last Sunday has already had an excellent effect, and will be continue the good work until the percentage of people carrying respirators is raised to a much higher figure?
    Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. Testimonials are always grateful.

    SHELTERS.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Home Secretary the cost of public air-raid shelters which, owing to poor material and bad construction, are unfit for use; and who was responsible for the preparation of the specifications of these shelters and, therefore, for the waste of a considerable sum of public money?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I presume my hon. Friend is referring to brick surface shelters in the construction of which lime-mortar was used. In answer to a Question by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) on 20th March, I explained the circumstances in which these shelters were constructed and I cannot add anything to that Answer.
    Mr. Lipson: In view of the fact that these shelters have proved unsatisfactory and that at the time of their construction the local officials knew that the specifications were unsatisfactory, will the Government agree to pay a 100 per cent. grant of the cost, since the Government were responsible?
    Mr. Morrison: I will consider that point, but I do not think it would be fair to pay local authorities a 100 per cent. grant in all cases. Not all this particular type of shelter are objectionable. Quite a number are all right, but we are taking a survey and weeding out those that arc objectionable.
    Mr. Magnay: Why blame the local authorities for a shortage of cement?
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that certain day nurseries have been closed for lack of air-raid shelter provision, and that, due to this, mothers employed in

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    ordnance factories have been compelled to leave their employment; and whether steps are being taken to remedy this deficiency?
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Ernest Brown): I am not aware of the closure of any day nurseries for the reason mentioned, but if my hon. Friend will let me know of specific instances, I will have inquiries made.
    Mr. Adams: While expressing respectful surprise at the Minister's statement that he is not in possession of this information, I shall be glad to supply him with it.
    Mr. Brown: I will receive it respectfully.

    BILLETING ALLOWANCES.
    Mr. Wedgwoodasked the Minister of Health why families driven by bombing from Whitstable are not given billeting allowances equally with those who are evacuated from London, in view of the financial difficulties that this involves upon the poorer classes?
    Mr. E. Brown: It is not the case that persons whose homes in Whitstable are rendered uninhabitable by enemy action are treated differently in the matter or billeting allowances from those whose homes are in London. Persons in these circumstances are, wherever their homes may be, entitled to be billeted, though for reasons of national security persons coming from other areas cannot be billeted in certain towns. If my right hon. Friend will let me know of an particular case he has in mind, I shall be glad to look into it.
    Mr. Wedgwood: Is it not the case that people evacuated from London, although their houses had not been destroyed, receive a billeting allowance, but that people evacuated from parts of Kent, where the situation is quite as bad, do not?
    Mr. Brown: If my right hon. Friend will study my Answer, he will see that there is no differentiation on the point put in his Question. The issue he had in mind, I understood, is where people who were evacuated from one area where a scheme applies have gone to an area where for security reasons the Government do not desire them to go.

    RENT CHARGES.
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the exorbitant rents that are being charged for domestic and business premises in areas affected by enemy action; and whether he will take steps to stop this form of profiteering?
    Mr. Brown: Yes, Sir, and in the case of houses I have in every case communicated at once with the local authority concerned. The question of business premises is one primarily for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. Persons who charge extortionate rents for furnished lettings are liable under the Rent Restrictions Acts to a fine not exceeding £100, and as the hon. Member knows, I have urged local authorities to prosecute in these cases. Some authorities have already taken successful action, and a number of prosecutions are impending. I am about to issue a further circular to local authorities emphasising the increasing need for vigilance, and I shall be glad to have details of any cases which have come to the notice of my hon. Friend or, indeed, of any other Members of this House so that I may look into them.
    Mr. Griffiths: In sending out the circular, will the Minister bear in mind that these things are happening not only in the towns immediately affected but in the areas outside, and see that the circular goes to the other authorities as well?
    Mr. Brown: It will be sent to all authorities concerned.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Will the right hon. Gentleman act in conjunction with the Secretary of State for Scotland in this matter?
    Mr. Brown indicated assent.

    SOLDIERS' HOUSES (REQUISITIONING).
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Minister of Health what steps are taken to protect the homes of soldiers whose wives become liable for compulsory service; and whether he can give an assurance that their homes will not be commandeered and abused by careless and thoughtless people?
    Mr. E. Brown: I would emphasise that the requisitioning of houses for occupation by the homeless and by other classes of persons is restricted

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    in the main to unoccupied and unfurnished premises, and that furnished premises are requisitioned only in the last resort when other suitable accommodation is not available. Whilst I sympathise with the objects which my hon. Friend has in mind and I am sure local authorities will give all possible consideration in circumstances such as those which he mentions, I do not think it would be practicable to exclude from requisitioning, where this is essential in the public interest, the houses of any particular sections of the community. With regard to the last part of the Question, compensation is payable under the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, for the use of the property.

  POLICE (DEPENDANTS' PENSIONS AND ALLOWANCES).
  Mr. T. Smithasked the Home Secretary whether he can now make a statement about the membership and terms of reference of the proposed committee on police widows' pensions?
  Mr. H. Morrison: I have now set up this Committee, and I am glad to be able to announce that I have been fortunate enough to obtain the services of Lord Snell as Chairman, of my hon. Friends the Member for the Brightside Division of Sheffield (Mr. Marshall), the Senior Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) and the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence), and of the Government Actuary (Mr. G. S. W. Epps, C.B., C.B.E.) as members of the Committee. The terms of reference of the Committee are to review the provision made by the Police Pensions Act, 1921, for the payment of pensions, allowances and gratuities to the widows, children and dependants of members of the Police Force.
  Mr. Smith: May we take it that the Committee will lose no time in getting down to the problem?
  Mr. Morrison: I am very anxious, in view of the fact that the matter has been under discussion for a long time, that the Committee shall proceed as quickly as possible, and I am sure Lord Snell will do everything he can in that direction.

  CZECHS, GREAT BRITAIN (CONSCRIPTION).
  Mr. Leachasked the Home Secretary what authority has been granted to the Czecho-Slovak Government and its military representatives in this country to exercise conscription powers over Czech residents here, and punish disobedience under Czech military law?
  Mr. H. Morrison: The Provisional Czecho-Slovak Government are empowered by the Allied Forces Act, 1940, to exercise, in matters affecting the discipline and internal administration of their armed forces, such powers as are conferred upon them by their own national law. The Allied Forces Act does not provide for the enforcement of conscription for the Allied Forces, but, as stated by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolver hampton (Mr. Mander) on 5th March, His Majesty's Government propose to introduce legislation as soon as possible to enable Allied nationals in this country to be called up compulsorily in the Allied Forces. Pending the passage of this legislation, the position remains that the Allied Governments have a right to call upon their nationals in this country for military service in accordance with their own national laws, but that our own courts and authorities have no power to assist the Allied Governments in enforcing such obligations for military service.
  Mr. Leach: In these circumstances is it possible for a Czech citizen resident here, who does not wish to join the Czech Forces as such, to join the British Army?
  Mr. Morrison: I am afraid I should require notice of that question, which is, perhaps, a matter for the War Office rather than for me.
  Mr. Silverman: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a great many cases since the Allied Forces Act was passed some of the Allied Governments concerned have systematically extended the scope of their authority beyond what this House gave to them, and will he see that they do not exceed the authority given to them until the House extends it?
  Mr. Morrison: I cannot be answerable for the actions of Allied Governments, but I am sure that the House generally

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  will sympathise with their desire to get the maximum number of military forces for the successful prosecution of the war. So far as I have come across cases where I think that they have gone over the line, I have made polite and suitable representations to them.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of the Czech Government in this country to the fact that in the notice calling-up their nationals for their Army they include a provision that if they do not turn up, they will be imprisoned in a dark room?
  Mr. Morrison: I should like to see evidence of that before I take action.
  Mr. McGovern: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain persons have already been arrested by Allied Governments which are sitting in this country, and can he state whether they have power to arrest, imprison or to carry out any such operations while out of their own country?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There is a Rule with regard to Questions reflecting on friendly Governments. When foreign Governments are resident in this country, there may be some possibility of raising questions of this kind in the House, but I think it is inadvisable that they should be raised by questions of this kind at the present time.
  Mr. McGovern: I did not want to exceed that Rule. I only wanted to know whether these Governments have the power to arrest and imprison in this country.
  Mr. Morrison: If the hon. Gentleman studies my answer, I think that he will find a reply to that question.

  HORSE-RACING.
  Sir Ralph Glynasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the difficulties of rationing, he will call for an immediate return of the number of racehorses in training, and, after consultation with the appropriate authorities interested in horse-breeding and racing, decide on a long and short-term policy?
  Mr. Stokesasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the shortage of feeding-stuffs necessitating the slaughter of a great quantity of hens and pigs, he
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  will take steps to suspend horse-racing either for the duration of the war or until a greater quantity of feeding-stuff is available?
  Mr. H. Morrison: The continuation of horse-racing was recently reviewed in consultation with all the Departments concerned, and full account was taken of the considerations to which my hon. Friends refer. The conclusion arrived at by the Government was that it would not be in the national interest to prohibit racing altogether. It was, however, arranged with the Stewards of the Jockey Club that the programme for the flat-racing season should be further reduced. The continuation of racing next winter will be considered in the light of the situation then prevailing. As regards the suggestion that a return should be obtained of the number of racehorses in training, this information is being obtained periodically, and there has already been a substantial reduction in the number.
  Sir R. Glyn: Will my right hon. Friend consider having a similar return at fixed periods of six or seven weeks to see what progress is being made in putting down a certain number of horses which are not necessary for thoroughbred breeding? Will he bear in mind the action of the Irish Government and the horses that move across the Channal between meetings here and in Ireland?
  Mr. Morrison: I will consider those points.
  Mr. Stokes: My point is that the hens and pigs are being killed now, and would it not be more prudent to stop horse-racing in the next six months in order to keep hens and pigs alive and restart horse-racing when the feeding-stuffs position is better?
  Mr. Morrison: I cannot claim to be an expert on horse-racing, but a decision to close it down altogether would be a very serious decision to take in relation to an industry of some importance. The Government feel that at the present moment, while there has been a reduction in racing, they ought not to pursue a policy which would mean an end of this industry altogether.
  Mr. Stokes: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are double the number of horses in training now as compared with the last war?

  RATE ASSESSMENTS.
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that certain clubs and hotels in the West End of London are getting reductions in their rating assessment on the ground of war conditions, reduction of rent and loss of trade, while small shopkeepers in identical circumstances are being refused such rate reductions; and what steps does he propose to take to ensure that equal treatment is accorded to all trading concerns in this matter?
  Mr. E. Brown: No, Sir. Questions of assessment are for determination in the first instance by the local authorities and, in the event of appeal, by the courts, and I have no authority to intervene.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the difficult position of these shopkeepers, will not the Minister issue a statement encouraging rating authorities to reduce the assessments?
  Mr. Brown: I have pointed out that f have no information on this matter beyond what is contained in the hon. Member's Question.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    CHILDREN (DIET).
    Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the advisability of making arrangements for special food, such as eggs and fruit, to be supplied to children needing it for health reasons, through the clinics or some public agency, with a view to making it unnecessary for mothers with children, who are ill and require attention, to stand for hours in queues?
    Mr. E. Brown: I have been in consultation with my Noble Friend the Minister of Food, and I understand that he has under consideration the special needs of young children for such foods.
    Mr. Mander: Can my right hon. Friend say when a definite statement will be made as to the arrangements?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot say that. My hon. Friend will understand that this is really a responsibility of my Noble Friend, but I thought the hon. Member would be glad to have the information I have given.

    DIPHTHERIA.
    Mr. Leachasked the Minister of Health how many deaths from diphtheria were registered in the year 1939, and how many in 1940; how many in each year were of children under five years of age; and how many from 5 to 10 years of age?
    Mr. E. Brown: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:

    1939.

    1940.

    All ages.

    All age

    2,130

    2,440 (These figures are provisional.)

    Under five.

    816

    Five and under ten.

    Classification by age:

    913

    Figures not available for 1940.

    INJURED INDUSTRIAL WORKERS (TREATMENT).
    Mr. Magnayasked the Minister of Health whether he is now able to make a statement on the steps proposed for securing that modern and properly organised treatment is provided for fracture cases occurring amongst industrial workers?
    Mr. E. Brown: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have consulted the Minister of Labour and other Ministers concerned, and propose to provide for these cases as far as possible under the Emergency Hospital Scheme. The hospital accommodation available under this scheme includes a large number of beds in hospitals and orthopaedic centres which are, or will shortly be, specially equipped for dealing with cases of fracture. In these hospitals and centres there are available, in addition to surgical skill of the highest class, the most modern forms of treatment by physio-therapy—including massage, electricity, and remedial exercises—and occupational therapy. For the purpose of treating war casualties, both military and civil, these facilities are welded together into a comprehensive organisation, supervised by the consultants in orthopaedic surgery employed by the Ministry of Health and the Department of Health for Scotland, so that the patients can be sent to the hospitals best suited for dealing with their injuries and, if necessary, transferred from one to another in the course of their treatment. The treatment

    1155
    of casualties is and must remain the primary purpose of the Emergency Hospital Scheme. But, in order to secure the fullest possible use of the organisation which has been provided, the Government have decided that in so far as there are vacant beds not likely to be required for the treatment of war casualties, they should be made available for fracture cases occurring amongst certain classes of the civil population whose early return to work is of special importance to the national cause.
    Accordingly, cases of fracture sustained, whether in the course of their work or not, by manual workers engaged in any of the following employments, namely, munition work—including ship-building and ship-repairing—building and civil engineering, mining, agriculture, fishing, public utility undertakings, shipping and transport, will be eligible for treatment in hospitals or centres under the emergency scheme, in so far as facilities are available. Whole-time paid civil defence personnel will also be included in these arrangements. As in the case of certain classes of the civil population who are under existing arrangements admitted to hospitals in the scheme for general treatment, the patient admitted under the new scheme will be expected to contribute through any contributory association to which he may belong, or if he is not a member of such an association, to pay such amount as he can reasonably afford towards the cost of his treatment, according to ordinary hospital practice. I may also add that the ordinary practice in Scottish hospitals will continue.
    Major Milner: Will the same opportunities be available for Civil Defence workers?
    Mr. Brown: I have said so—for whole-time Civil Defence workers.
    Major Milner: Will they not be available for part-time Civil Defence workers?
    Mr. Brown: No, Sir.
    Sir Francis Fremantle: Will these excellent arrangements be extended not only to fracture cases but to many other cases which require the same treatment, and rehabilitation, and are equally important, and will my right hon. Friend avoid a duplicate organisation?
    Mr. Brown: There has been no duplicate organisation. My hon. Friend will
    1156
    know that the number of first-class hospitals with first-class equipment and surgeons with special qualifications is limited. What we have to do is to use those le-sources to the maximum extent in order to get those injured in industries vital to the war effort and whole-time Civil Defence workers back to their posts at the earliest possible moment. That is the prime intention.

  NURSES (UNMARRIED MOTHERS).
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that many hospital authorities refuse to employ fully qualified nurses, or to train probationers, who have been, or are, unmarried mothers; and, in view of the recent action of the General Nursing Council in removing the name of a nurse who was an unmarried mother from their register, whether he will take action to prevent unjust actions of this character?
  Mr. E. Brown: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. With regard to the second part of the Question, an appeal lies to the High Court against a decision of the General Nursing Council to remove the name of a nurse from the register, and the matter is not one in which I have power to take any action.
  Mr. Sorensen: Does not my right hon. Friend see that in many of these cases it is morally reprehensible to exclude these women on those grounds, and will he do what he can to discourage it?
  Mr. Brown: That is a matter of opinion and conviction.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: Does the right hon. Gentleman approve of the removal of a nurse from the register because she has had an illegitimate child in a case where it has not been proved that she has been guilty of professional misconduct with a patient?
  Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend is asking me to express an opinion upon what the court may or may not say about particular cases, and I must refuse to do that in the absence of any evidence about the cases.
  Dr. Summerskill: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am asking him to express an opinion because the Ministry of Health is represented on the General Nursing Council?

  PROPERTY ALTERATIONS (LOCAL AUTHORITIES' DEMANDS).
  Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that many local authorities, even in districts which are subject to enemy action, are insisting upon alterations in property which, while desirable in peace-time, are onerous when all money, materials and labour must be devoted to the war; and whether he will consider instructing local authorities to suspend such activities for the duration of the war?
  Mr. E. Brown: I have no reason to believe that local authorities, in the exercise of their powers in respect of existing houses, are not, in general, taking into account the special circumstances arising from the war, and I doubt whether it is necessary or desirable for me at present to take the course suggested by my hon. Friend. But I will gladly take up with the local authority concerned any case which he may bring to my notice.

  STANDARD RENTS (RATES).
  Mr. Silvermanasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that under existing legislation protected tenants bear the burden of any increase of rates but do not benefit by any reduction of rates; and whether he will introduce amending legislation?
  Mr. E. Brown: I am advised that the landlord of a controlled house who has increased the standard rent under Section 2 of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Act, 1920, to meet an increase of rates, is legally obliged, should that rate increase be subsequently reduced, to make a corresponding reduction in the rent. If my hon. Friend is suggesting that the standard rent itself should be decreased whenever the amount of rates payable falls below the amount payable on 1st September, 1939, I would point out that an amendment of the Rent Acts, which would involve a fundamental alteration in the principle of rent restriction, namely, the laying down of a fixed standard subject to certain denned permitted increases, would be necessary. As at present advised I do not consider that such a fundamental alteration is called for.
  Mr. Silverman: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that since September of last year the Treasury has borne an ever-increasing share of local expenditure caused by the war effort, that as a result rates all over the country have been reduced, and that unless this amending legislation is introduced the whole advantage arising from the State taking over that financial liability will go into the pockets of slum landlords?
  Mr. Brown: I do not wish to express any opinion on that, but I would point out that the tenants of houses brought into control by the Act of 1939 would not, but for the passing of that Act, be protected at all.

  ARMED FORCES AND CIVILIANS (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
  Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Pensions, how many claims for compensation he has received from civilians suffering from neurosis consequent upon enemy action; and how many have been acceded to?
  The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): These claims are not analysed according to disabilities, and I regret, therefore, that I am unable to furnish the figures asked for by the hon. Member.
  Mr. Davies: Is it not a fact that some of these neurosis cases receive compensation from the State?
  Sir W. Womersley: At the present time a number of these cases are under treatment.
  Mr. Daviesasked the Minister of Pensions whether, for the convenience of all concerned, he will take the necessary steps to empower members of local authorities to attest pensioners' declarations?
  Sir W. Womersley: The classes of persons who may attest pensioners' declarations is prescribed by Treasury Warrant. The list of such persons covers a very wide field and I have no evidence that pensioners, who normally are not called upon to complete life certificates more frequently than once every twelve months, are inconvenienced in procuring the necessary attestation.
  Mr. Davies: Is the Minister aware that, owing to the dispersal of population consequent upon enemy action, it is very difficult in some districts to find magistrates and other people on the list? Will he consider this point?
  Sir W. Womersley: The list is very extensive, but I will go through it again to see whether any improvement can be made. I am of opinion that it provides for these cases.
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that public assistance committees are having financially to assist women whose husbands, in civil occupation, have been killed by enemy action; and whether he will take action to guarantee to all women, who became widows through enemy action, adequate compensation to relieve them from seeking public assistance?
  Sir W. Womersley: The widows of workers who have been killed by enemy action receive special temporary allowances at the rate of 50 shillings a week for the 10 weeks immediately after the husband's death. This is followed by the normal widow's pension. Ministry officers establish contact with such widows and put these allowances into payment immediately. These arrangements should obviate recourse to public assistance, but if the hon. Member has any particular case in mind I shall be happy to consider it.

  INDIA (INCOME TAX, LOANS).
  Sir J. Mellorasked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the imposition for the first time of Income Tax by the Government of India on interest due to holders in the United Kingdom of certain Indian Port Trust loans; whether any change of financial policy is involved; and whether he will make a statement?
  The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): Yes, Sir. Under the Indian Income-tax (Amendment) Act, 1939, certain Indian concerns, including Port Trusts, are required by the Indian revenue authorities to deduct Indian Income Tax from interest payable in the United Kingdom on their issues of sterling debentures. The Government of India are advised that the validity of the relevant provisions of
  1160
  the Indian law is not open to question, and that the provisions can therefore be enforced in that country. They appreciate, however, that hardship would be caused by the enforcement of the law in the case of loans issued before the publication of the amending Bill made known the intention to legislate. They are, therefore, issuing orders that the deduction of Indian Income Tax at the source is to be waived in those cases of sterling loans issued for public subscription before 1st April, 1938, where the investor is entitled under United Kingdom law to be paid without such a deduction.

  AGRICULTURE.

    POTATO CULTIVATION.
    Mr. Priceasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider if any assistance can be given to farmers on non-potato growing ground who are ordered to grow so many acres of potatoes and who may, in consequence, be involved in a loss?
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): Under the Agricultural Requisites Assistance Scheme, potato growers can obtain assistance from their war agricultural executive committee in regard to the supply of seed potatoes, fertilisers, implements, etc. Prices for this year's crop will be fixed at a level which will ensure to growers a remunerative return on their crop as a whole, and the principle of relieving individual growers of a risk of being unable to find a market will be maintained. While, therefore, variation in yield is to be expected as between established potato-growing areas and new areas, I do not think that any class of grower is being called upon to undertake undue risk in cultivating potatoes this year or that there is need for further measures of assistance.

    FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the very large loss of foodstuffs involved in the slaughter of stock on account of foot-and-mouth disease, he is exploring every avenue in search of possible cures; and whether his Department has accepted offers of demonstrations of cures for this disease by the late lecturer in special pathology, University College, Dublin?
    Mr. Hudson: It is not the fact, as suggested in the hon. Member's Question, that very large losses of foodstuffs are involved in the slaughter of stock on account of foot-and-mouth disease. As I have already stated, the majority of the carcases are salvaged for human consumption. The gentleman referred to in the last part of the Question was afforded an opportunity by the Food-and-Mouth Disease Research Committee of proving his claim to have solved the problem of preventing and curing foot-and-mouth disease.
    Mr. Adams: Is the Minister aware that the professor had a letter recently in the '' Times '' in which he said he had offered the Ministry of Agriculture demonstrations of a cure, but was refused?
    Mr. Hudson: Yes, Sir, but I think the hon. Member has been long enough in public life not to take notice of every letter in a newspaper and not to assume that what a writer says is correct.
    Mr. Adams: May I say that I have every reason to believe that in this case it is correct?
    Major Sir George Davies: While the Minister is exploring every avenue, will he take care to see that he leaves no stone unturned?

    GARDENERS (BUCKINGHAMSHIRE MANSION).
    Mr. Leachasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will take action in the case of a Buckinghamshire mansion, of which he has been informed, where a head gardener and 15 gardeners are employed; where no efforts to grow foodstuffs, except food for the house, are made, and flower beds are camouflaged with inter-sown lettuce; and whether he will take steps to put an end to this defiance of the national interests?
    Mr. Hudson: I have no information as to the facts beyond what have been brought to my notice by the hon. Member, but I will inquire into the matter.
    Mr. Leach: Will the right hon. Gentleman draw the attention of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the fact that there are still people who can afford to keep 15 gardeners? Does he not think it rather discreditable and that the facts, as put forward in my Question, reflect very badly upon the Astors of Cliveden?
    Mr. Hudson: I would much rather await inquiry to see whether the facts brought to my notice by the hon. Member are correct before I express any opinion.
    Mr. Granville: Would the Minister make inquiries as to whether this Buckinghamshire mansion is now used as a private residence or as a military convalescent home?

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    INCOME TAX (WIVES' EARNINGS).
    Mrs. Tateasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, for the duration of the war, he will, for Income Tax purposes, assess the earnings of women engaged on work of national importance separately from those of their husbands?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): My hon. Friend will not expect my right hon. Friend to anticipate his Budget Statement.
    Mrs. Tate: Is not my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that, realising the calls upon his Department at the present moment, I couched this Question in extraordinarily moderate language and that I expected some justice in his reply?

    CANADIAN FORCES (REMITTANCES TO DEPENDANTS).
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the position of Canadians who are serving in United Kingdom Forces and, owing to exchange regulations, are unable to remit part of their pay to dependants in Canada; and whether he will seek an arrangement with the Canadian Government for some special provision of exchange to relieve this hardship?
    Captain Crookshank: Yes, Sir, Arrangements are being made whereby Canadians resident in Canada, who have come to this country for war service, should be in a position to arrange for remittances to be made for the support of dependants in Canada.

    SCOTTISH LAND (RENTS AND PAYMENTS).
    Mr. Erskine Hillasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he pro poses to make provision for 1941–42 and subsequent years on the lines of Sub section (5) of Section 17 of the Finance Act, 1940, so that rents under long leases

    1163
    and other annual payments in respect of land in Scotland for the period ending on the 15th day of May in any year, shall be treated for the purposes of the Section as if they had become due at the commencement of that period?
    Captain Crookshank: Yes, Sir.

    EXCHANGE CONTROL.
    Mr. Caryasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, following the passage of the Lease-Lend Act, he will consider consulting the American Government as to the desirability of making substantial modifications in the law relating to the holding and use of dollar currency by British nationals in the United States of America and also inquire into the advisability of creating generally a freer exchange of currency between Great Britain and the United States of America?
    Captain Crookshank: No, Sir. I must emphasise the fact that, notwithstanding the passage of the Lease-Lend Act, our overseas commitments to be met in gold or dollars remain very large. It therefore remains essential to our war effort that our exchange resources should be conserved to the maximum degree, and that the Exchange Control regulations should be strictly complied with by all concerned.

  MINISTERS (PENSIONS).
  Captain W. T. Shawasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many members of the Government are entitled to draw pensions either from home, Colonial or Dominion Governments in addition to their salaries as Cabinet Ministers; and whether he will give particulars; and how many are actually drawing such a pension?
  Captain Crookshank: I regret that I have not been able to complete my inquiries in the time available and, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, I will communicate with him as soon as I have done so.
  Captain Shaw: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend say in his reply whether these pensions are governed by Section 20 of the Superannuation Act?
  Captain Crookshank: If my hon. and gallant Friend wants me to make further inquiries, I will take note of what he asks.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    MARMALADE AND JAM RATION.
    Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food when he proposes to investigate the working of the new marmalade-jam Orders; and whether experience has already shown that the supplies of jam will be excessive unless they are rationed separately from the other commodities which are now included with it?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): The scheme, as my hon. Friend will be aware, is of very recent inception, and its working is being kept under continuous review. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the negative.

    COLD STORAGE (ICE RINKS).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what steps he has taken, or proposes to take, to make the premises of ice-skating rinks available for cold-storage of foodstuffs during the war emergency; and whether he has any statement to make on the subject?
    Major Lloyd George: The technical difficulties of converting ice rinks into cold stores are such that it is cheaper and more satisfactory in every way to build new buildings. The machinery from ice rinks will, however, be used in new cold stores whenever this can be done.
    Mr. Gibson: Is it a fact that there is a shortage of cold storage at the present time?
    Major Lloyd George: That is another question, but the position could not be improved by using ice rinks.

    CHEESE RATION.
    Mr. G. Macdonaldasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in excluding the colliery surface worker from the higher ration of cheese granted to the mineworkers, regard was had to the heavy nature of the work many surface workers are engaged upon; and whether the Minister would be prepared to meet representatives of the coal industry to discuss this question?
    Major Lloyd George: The higher ration of cheese is to meet the special case of underground miners who require to take

    1165
    suitable food with them. It is not a supplementary ration in respect of heavy work. My noble Friend keeps in close touch with the T.U.C. and he feels that discussion with them is the proper course, in view of the representative mature of that body.
    Mr. Macdonald: In view of the deputation received by the noble Lord and the undertaking given as to canteens for surface workers, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman and the Secretary for Mines press forward for the provision of such canteens?
    Major Lloyd George: Yes, Sir. I shall be very glad to do so.

    SCHOOL MEALS.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that certain schools which provide midday meals are experiencing a difficulty in obtaining supplies from the usual sources and that this is also hampering the extension of school dinners; and whether he will arrange for school authorities to obtain what they require by direct supply through the local food executive officer, when circumstances make this desirable?
    Major Lloyd George: I am aware that some schools have experienced difficulty in obtaining supplies of meat, but I have no information to indicate that difficulty has arisen regarding other foodstuffs. Supplies of food are normally furnished to schools through trade channels and it is not practicable to depart from that procedure, but if my hon. Friend has any particular schools in mind I shall be glad to make inquiries.
    Mr. Lipson: What is the objection, since local authorities are getting this food direct through the local food offices for their communal restaurants, to the schools being able to get their food from the same source?
    Major Lloyd George: I will look into that point.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    TOBACCO.
    Miss Rathboneasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give figures showing the amount of tobacco imported and the value of the retail
    1166
    sales of tobacco during the last four six-monthly periods for which such figures are available?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Lyttelton): The latest figures that can be published regarding imports of tobacco relate to the year 1939. In the first and second half years of 1938 and 1939, total imports of tobacco into the United Kingdom amounted successively to 125.8, 220.3, 97.9 and 114.7 million lbs. Corresponding information about the value of retail sales is not available.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the Minister satisfied that the imports are decreasing and are not putting an undue burden upon our shipping facilities?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir.

    EXPORTS TO UNITED STATES.
    Mr. Pickthornasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can make any statement about the effect on the United Kingdom export policy of the Lease-Lend Act?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir. This country needs more and more supplies of every kind from the United States. His Majesty's Government are grateful for the ungrudging aid which they have already received, and are fortified by the assurance which the Lease-Lend Act provides for continued supplies of essential goods. Our need for dollars, however, remains very great and anything which adds to our dollar earnings is a contribution of first-rate importance to our cause. That is one reason why His Majesty's Government still regard it as a necessity for this country to maintain and extend its exports to the United States, and continue to give every assistance to that trade. The extent to which this purpose can be achieved, of course, depends largely on the response of buyers in the United States, and I trust that they will continue to ask for our products. Experience will, I think, have demonstrated to them our ability to produce and deliver the goods and to maintain their traditional high quality.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

    MUNITIONS FACTORIES, NORTHERN IRELAND.
    Dr. Little: asked the Minister of Supply, in view of the urgency of the

    1167
    matter and the pressing local demand, what steps the Government have taken towards the erection and equipment of munition factories in Northern Ireland, in view of its security hitherto and the available labour?
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Harold Macmillan): As already indicated in answer to a Question by my hon. Friend on 30th January, I do not think it advisable to make any public statement regarding steps taken to erect and equip munition factories.
    Dr. Little: Will the hon. Gentleman push forward the erection of these factories in order to provide work at home for our Ulstermen instead of bringing them across to this country?

    ROYAL ORDNANCE FACTORIES (DISCIPLINE).
    Mr. G. Macdonaldasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that the present method of enforcing discipline in the Royal Ordnance factories is not designed to securing the maximum output; and whether he will have the whole matter fully investigated to try and secure some alternative method?
    Mr. Macmillan: If the hon. Member will let me know more precisely to what methods of enforcing discipline he refers, I shall be pleased to look into the matter.
    Mr. Macdonald: Is the Minister aware that the present method is to suspend people for a number of days for some indiscipline, and that in a North-West factory over 1,000 man-shifts have been lost in three months by this method of discipline?

  AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (NORTHERN IRELAND).
  Dr. Littleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production whether he has taken measures with a view to a much larger production of aeroplanes in Northern Ireland; and whether he is arranging for the establishment there of war factories to ensure a constant ample supply of aeroplanes, as local labour is abundant?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production (Colonel Llewellin): I am well aware that there is
  1168
  an ample supply of labour in Northern Ireland, although not much of it is skilled engineering labour. We have already increased the orders given to manufacturers there. In addition, I have myself recently had two discussions with the Minister of Commerce for Northern Ireland, as to whether we can place still further orders in that area. I think that we may be able to do so.

  AMERICAN MAIL (BOMB EXPLOSION).
  Mr. Thorneasked the Postmaster General whether he can give any information in connection with the bomb planted in a bag of American mail in transit through London, which exploded in the tube railway under Mount Pleasant Post Office?
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Allan Chapman): The bomb in question caused a small fire, quickly put out. The other parcels in the bag were only slightly damaged. I am glad to say that none of the staff, who acted with great promptitude, was injured. Inquiry into the matter is being pressed forward.

  MERCANTILE MARINE (CREWS).
  Mr. Windsorasked the Minister of Shipping the position in respect of pro vision of crews for merchant vessels; and whether it is intended to promote a scheme for keeping seamen on continuous articles?
  Sir J. Edmondson: I have been asked to reply. The representatives of the owners, officers and men on the National Maritime Board are preparing a scheme for the provision of continuous employment during the war for the officers and men of the Merchant Navy, and for the building-up of a reserve to enable adequate leave to be given in the Merchant Navy.

  HOSPITAL NURSING SERVICE (GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS).
  Miss Ward( by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health whether he is in a position to make any further statement with regard to the nursing profession?
  Mr. E. Brown: As the House will recollect, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of

  1169
  Health, in the course of the recent Debate on Woman-Power, made a statement on the position of the Hospital Nursing Service. With the permission of the House, I propose to-day to amplify what was then said.
  Most hon. Members will be aware that the existing and prospective shortage of nurses in hospitals is giving rise to anxiety. Thanks to the reinforcements provided by the Civil Nursing Reserve the emergency hospitals dealing with civil and military casualties are for the most part adequately staffed. Our main concern is with the hospitals—not less important from a national standpoint— which provide for the general needs of the civil population and in particular those dealing with infectious disease and the old and infirm. Here the shortage is in some cases acute. Available beds cannot be used on account of shortage of nurses, and staffs are carrying on under increasing difficulties. To meet this situation, I propose to appeal to the women and girls of the country to enrol for nursing service in any part of the country. Those who join as nursing auxiliaries will not be sent to hospitals dealing with infectious disease or mental cases or to sanatoria, unless they volunteer for this service. The appeal will be especially addressed to the age groups which are shortly to be registered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service, and he has undertaken to secure that the vital importance of the nursing service, a service which is pre-eminently women's work, shall be brought to the notice of those registering.
  I wish to stress in partcular the importance of securing a larger number of women who are prepared to take up nursing as a life career and to enter as student nurses one of the hospitals recognised as training schools. Those who are prepared to join on this basis and accept training in the hospital allotted to them will receive salaries at the rate of £40 a year rising by annual increments of £5. It is proposed also to increase the salaries payable to members of the Civil Nursing Reserve in residential posts in hospitals. The salaries for the assistant nurse and trained nurse include a sum representing the employer's contribution towards superannuation and as from the first pay week in February the rates will be:

  For nursing auxiliaries

  £55 a year

  For assistant nurses

  £70” ”

  For trained nurses

  £105” ”

  in each case with board, lodging and laundry and indoor and outdoor uniforms. These rates will apply to all members of the Reserve, both existing and future, who are in full-time employment in hospitals, and in so far as expenditure on nursing staff is chargeable to the Emergency Hospital Scheme, the cost of the new rates, as of the existing ones, will be reimbursed by the Government.
  Further, it is proposed that those who respond to the appeal and are accepted will receive a guarantee of a year's employment and will be asked to undertake to serve for that period. Recruits who join as nursing auxiliaries will receive a short course of instruction in hospitals during which they will receive 10s. a week as pocket money, together with board, lodging and laundry.
  I turn now to a matter of long-term policy. As the House is aware, the Inter-departmental Committee which sat under the chairmanship of the Earl of Athlone made a number of important recommendations, consideration of which was unavoidably deferred by the outbreak of war. Of these perhaps the most important related to the machinery for fixing the salaries and pensions of nurses on a national basis, and recommended the establishment of Salaries Committees for this purpose analogous to the Burn-ham Committees in the teaching profession. As has been already stated by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, the Government accept this recommendation, and I propose to take immediate steps to consult the various interests concerned with a view to establishing the necessary procedure. This, however, will take time, and in view of the many different types of nursing work and the great variety of conditions which obtain even in hospitals of the same type, the examination of the problem by the committees when established is likely to be a slow process. In the meantime it is in my view very desirable—and indeed in view of the many competing demands on the services of women necessary—that hospital authorities in general should review the salaries now paid to their nursing staffs in the light of the new rates which I have already mentioned. In making any comparison between these

  1171
  rates, which have designedly been laid down in the simplest possible form, and the rates now paid by the authority, it will no doubt be necessary to take account of a number of special factors such as superannuation rights.
  There is one further matter which I should mention. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the establishment of a Nursing Division in the Ministry. I have already on the staff of the Ministry at headquarters and in our Regional offices 53 State registered nurses, partly recruited for the E.M.S. services and partly engaged on the public health and hospital work of the Department. Arrangements have now been made for the whole of this work to be grouped on its professional side under the general direction of a Chief Nursing Officer with two deputies. I have appointed as Chief Nursing Officer and Chief Matron of the Emergency Hospital Service Miss Katherine Watt, C.B.E., R.R.C., who has had a most distinguished nursing career culminating in the post of Matron in Chief of the Royal Air Force and has since shortly before the outbreak of war been principal Matron of the Emergency Medical Service One of the posts of deputy will, in my view, be most appropriately filled by the appointment of a nurse with current experience of hospital management, and I hope to make such an appointment at a very early date. I also propose that the second deputy should be a nurse with special experience of public health and domiciliary nursing services. I may add that I have asked my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to make the Nursing Division her special concern.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is making similar arrangements subject to such minor modifications as the conditions in Scotland require.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: In dealing with this very important problem, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind one point which emerged before the Inter-Departmental Committee, namely, that a number of girls and women are willing to serve in hospitals if they are not thrust into nurses' homes? Can they not engage in this service and go to the hospitals to do their day's work, going home
  1172
  in the evenings when their homes are near the hospital?
  Mr. Brown: That is one of the important points to be considered in the examination which will take place. It has not been found easy to go forward, but I have felt that this particular subject was of such vital importance that I felt impelled to take these forward steps now.
  Dr. Summerskill: While I realise that the subject of nursing is of very great importance, and while I welcome any suggestion made by the Minister of Health—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must remind the hon. Lady that this is not a Debate. She is not entitled to do more than ask questions.
  Dr. Summerskill: I apologise; I was about to say, Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the new scales of wages which he has just announced are not as high for a qualified nurse—£55 a year— as a girl can receive in domestic service to-day? Does he think that this will change the position?
  Mr. Brown: I have reason to believe that these scales will be regarded, taken as a whole and in the light of what I have stated, as a very great forward movement, and they will mean very heavy extra expense for all hospitals concerned as well as for the Government emergency scheme.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Is the Minister of Health aware that I have visited a great many local hospitals where my folk are at the moment as a result of the "Blitz" that happened on Clydebank, and that at every hospital I have visited discontent among the nurses is rampant because of the scandalous wages paid?
  Mr. Frankel: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the repercussions which this will have financially on the local authorities, and does he propose to make any subsidies to them?
  Mr. Brown: I will take into consideration any representations that are made when the facts are brought out. I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for raising the point, because for the London County Council I am told that the suggested increase for nurses in all grades would involve an additional expenditure of £70,000 a year.
  Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that these salaries, even if they are such a step forward as he has said, are either worthy or attractive enough to get the right type of candidates?
  Mr. Brown: I must ask the hon. and gallant Member to await the opinion of (hose who are really competent to express a view in regard to these as compared with the old scales.
  Mrs. Hardie: Will the Minister consider training some men as nurses under the same wages and conditions?
  Dr. Summerskill: At £55 a year.
  Mr. Brown: There are, of course, male nurses, and they do very valuable work for the patients in regard to whom their service are appropriate.
  Mr. McGovern: Are these wages intended to drive girls into munition work?
  Mr. Brown: No, Sir. I have reason to believe that they will help to solve what has been one of the most difficult of our problems.
  Mrs. Tate: The right hon. Gentleman obviously comes within the definition of an optimist.
  Sir Stanley Reed: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the fact that a very considerable number of nurses marry and therefore do not qualify for superannuation allowances, he would not consider, in connection with this scheme, a provident fund which would benefit both those who do their full term and those who retire before the completion of that term?
  Mr. Brown: That will be one of the long-term questions to be discussed.
  Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Will my right hon. Friend compare the existing offer which he has indicated with recent agreements in regard to shop workers, bus conductresses and factory workers in the London area?
  Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend must understand that we are not talking about a total emolument in terms of actual pay; all the other things I mentioned have to be taken into account.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Lees-Smith: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he can make any statement concerning the forthcoming Business of the House?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): As the House is aware, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget on the next Sitting Day, and a general Debate will take place on the Budget Resolutions.
On the last Sitting Day, we shall adjourn for the Easter Recess. A statement will be made later, probably in Secret Session, as to the length of the Adjournment.
At the beginning of Business on the day before the Adjournment for Easter, the Prime Minister will make a statement on the war situation, and move a Resolution expressing the congratulations and thanks of this House to the Royal Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force for the succession of brilliant victories in the Mediterranean and the Middle East.
The Debate to-day is on the subject of Food Production. It is also proposed to take the Committee and remaining stages of the Isle of Man (Detention) Bill and the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill, and there is a Motion on the Order Paper to take those Bills before the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, and to suspend the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) in respect of Government Business. The Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill is, of course, exempted Business.
Sir I. Albery: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the statement he has just made means that there is only to be one Sitting for the real Debate on the Budget, because unless the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to render a large proportion of the Members of this House quite inarticulate, that will not be enough?
Mr. Attlee: The usual time will be allowed for the Budget discussion.
Sir I. Albery: The right hon. Gentleman says the usual time will be allowed, but the first Sitting Day will be practically a dies non; then there is the second Sitting Day, and as far as I can make out that is all.
Mr. Attlee: The first Sitting Day will be the usual length of time; there will be no interruption on the second Sitting Day, and there will be other Sitting Days after Easter.
Commander Sir Archibald Southby: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when the Government propose to give time for a Debate on the agreement on the leased bases, in view of the representations which have been made to the Prime Minister on the subject?
Mr. Maxton: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what are the arrangements for to-day's Sitting? Do I understand that the Debate on agriculture is to go on until the normal time of rising, and that the Committee stage of the Isle of Man (Detention) Bill will then be taken, or is it proposed to conclude the agricultural Debate at an hour earlier than the normal time?
Mr. Attlee: That is a matter for the House. I hope it will be possible to take the other Orders at the earlier time suggested, but I would point out that there is certain Business which we must get through before Easter.
Ordered,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before the time appointed for the interruption of Business, and that the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Attlee.]

CHARTERED AND OTHER BODIES (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS)BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the East Surrey Gas Company and for other purposes."—[East Surrey Gas Bill [Lords].
NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
That they give leave to the Lord Perry to attend in order to his being examined as a witness before the Co-ordinating Sub-Committee appointed by the Select Committee appointed by this House on National Expenditure, if his Lordship think fit.
EAST SURREY GAS BILL [Lords].
Read the First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [4TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee. [Progress, 2nd March.]
  [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]
  Sir Henry Morris-Jones: On a point of Order. May I ask you, Colonel Clifton Brown, for your Ruling in regard to the character of the Debate which is to take place? I understand that it is to be a Debate concerning food production. May hon. Members be told whether they will be entitled, within the terms of this Debate, to discuss the questions of food distribution and rationing, as these constitute a very important element in connection with the consumption of food in this country to-day?
  Mr. Gordon Macdonald: Would it not be better that these other aspects of the food question which, in themselves, call for a full day's discussion were left over to another occasion?
  The Deputy-Chairman: The first Vote which I shall proceed to put before the Committee is the Vote for the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. For the convenience of the Committee and in order that reference may be made to it, the Ministry of Food Vote is also included, but although I would not desire to rule such references out of Order, it would not be desirable to extend the scope of the Debate to the question of food distribution. I hope I shall not be called upon to ask any hon. Member to refrain from discussing the distribution of food, but I suggest very strongly that we should confine our Debate to the question of food production without any extended references to distribution.
  Sir H. Morris-Jones: In view of the fact that it is possibly the desire of the House that these questions of distribution and rationing should be dealt with on another occasion, may we take it that there is general agreement that to-day's Debate should be confined to food production?
  The Deputy-Chairman: I do not know what the Government's arrangements are, but I rather think that another oppor-
  1194
  tunity will be given to discuss the question of food distribution and that ought to meet the hon. Member's point.

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1941.
  CLASS VI.
  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1941.

    MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceding £2,359,683, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, and of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, including grants and grants in aid and expenses in respect of agricultural education and research, eradication of diseases of animals, and improvement of breeding, etc., of live stock, land settlement, improvement of cultivation, drainage, etc., regulation of agricultural wages, agricultural credits, and marketing; fishery organisation, research and development, control of diseases of fish, etc.; and sundry other services including certain remanet subsidy payments." — [Note: £1,600,000 has been voted on account.]

  FOOD PRODUCTION.
  Earl Winterton: I must apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones), who tended to show some impatience about the scope of this Debate, but I would like to point out to him that a number of us, in all parts of the Committee, are most anxious to get a full day's discussion on this most important question of food production and I venture to hope that those who speak will confine themselves to that point. Another reason why it is important that we should have a full day on this subject is that, unfortunately, through nobody's fault, a considerable amount of time has already been taken up by another matter and there is other business to be taken after this Debate.
  Sir H. Morris-Jones: The Noble Lord suggests that I showed some impatience, but I was merely raising a point of some importance to hon. Members with regard to the scope of this discussion. We desired a Ruling from the Chair on whether or not we would be able to talk on the question of food distribution and we have had that Ruling.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I should point out to the Committee that, technically, all that is before us now is the Vote for

  1195
  the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. Therefore it would be out of Order to go into the other matters referred to, as long as this Vote is before us.
  Earl Winterton: I can only say that, if permitted to do so, I shall give my hon. Friend all the support possible as regards securing another day for the discussion of the matters to which he has referred. Those of us who asked for this day's discussion are grateful to the Government for having granted it, and I, personally, am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture for having permitted me to open it. I think it is convenient that those who have some friendly but candid criticisms to offer on certain aspects of agricultural policy should start the discussion. May I begin by calling attention to one matter of some importance? The two Debates which we have had recently, one on shipping and the other on agriculture, have not been asked for through the ordinary and what I may call the respectable channels, though I do not complain about that. They have been asked for by a number of us in different parts of the Committee who believe that, in this time of crisis, these most important questions should bedebated on the Floor of the House. I would offer an observation which I think will meet with sympathy in every part of the Committee. It is that to-day there are two assemblies in different parts of the world which enjoy an enhancement of their prestige and position, probably never before equalled. Those two assemblies are the Congress of the United States and the British House of Commons. Therefore, it is of the highest importance that these matters of moment should be debated on the Floor of the House and no addresses by Ministers in party caucus, or to meetings of Members upstairs, useful as those may be, can take the place of debate in this House.
  I must warn the Committee that I propose to deal very largely with a question which I have already raised on several occasions and on which I may run the risk of boring the Committee, and that is the question of the use of derelict land and the amount of land which has never yet been cultivated in this country. I have to bring before the Committee serious facts and figures, some of which have never been disclosed before and I
  1196
  propose, therefore, to pass lightly over the other points which I and my hon. and right hon. Friends wish to bring to the notice of the Minister. I think, however, that these other points should be mentioned, because doubtless the Minister will desire to deal with it. First, as to prices. There, I am frankly a supporter of the Minister. I do not believe that the present controlled prices are insufficient to give a fair return on a moderately good farm and I think that farmers should show gratitude to the Minister for the fight which he has doubtless made in Cabinet to obtain those prices. In regard to labour, the situation is still very unsatisfactory. There is still a great insufficiency of labour. 1 was horrified to receive this letter—which was not marked "Private" and which I can therefore read out to the Committeex2014; from the Minister of Labour:
  "In almost every county, for which a large figure is shown, the demand cannot be met locally and it will be necessary to transfer labour. This immediately raises difficulties of accommodation, and if every one of the men wanted were to be supplied to-morrow, it is certain that they could not all be accommodated. The Ministry of Agriculture are tackling this problem, by for example the provision of hostels, but this takes time."
  this is the list which he sent me. it goes only up to 29th January; but, as I have not received any notification from my right hon. Friend, who promised to keep me informed, I presume that it is complete. It shows that for farm work the number of unfilled vacancies was only 25, but for drainage and land clearance the number was no less than 1,633. That is a very serious thing. I invite the Minister to tell us what is being done about it. My right hon. Friend should make urgent representations to the Minister of Labour to apply the same conditions of control, and, if necessary, compulsion, to employers and employés alike, in agriculture as he has applied to those in munitions and shipbuilding.
  Sir Joseph Lamb: For what area is that figure of 25? It seems very small.
  Earl Winterton: I shall be very pleased to give my hon. Friend the figures. They are six in Berkshire, one in East Suffolk, 10 in Kent, five in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and three in Wiltshire. [Interruption.] I am not responsible for these figures. There are no vacancies shown for any other counties. I agree

  1197
  that it is very astonishing, and I hope that my hon. Friends will put some questions on the matter. I shall be very pleased to supply them with this document. I submit that men should be trained and transferred to agriculture from other work, if there is any need for additional labour. I will pass lightly over the question of employment of conscientious objectors on the land. Unfortunately, in most cases where it is proposed to employ conscientious objectors on the land alongside the ordinary labourers, the labourers object. I say unfortunately,"speaking purely from the point of view of getting labour. In regard to land-girls, the situation is still not satisfactory. It is a delicate question to refer to, but one of the main reasons is because of the difficulty which arises from their presence on farms. In some cases it is difficult to find accommodation for them, and there are other cases in which a certain amount of foolish apprehension arises on the part of the farmer's wife or the labourers' wives. In that respect, farming generally is rather behind other industies. In dozens of other industries men and women work side by side without the men's wives having any apprehensions. I would ask my right hon. Friend to answer these questions. Is he going to make application to the Minister of Labour to apply compulsion on the same lines as he is doing in shipbuilding and munitions, and what does my right hon. Friend propose to do about these specific points that I have mentioned?
  I pass to the question of poultry and feeding-stuffs. There, again, I am a supporter of the Minister of Agriculture. I do not think that the full story has been adequately stated in the Press. I am informed, on very high authority, that, not once but twice, my right hon. Friend warned the representatives of the poultry industry last summer that the amount of feeding-stuffs that they had had in the past would not be available. He begged them to amalgamate, and, by a friendly process, to eliminate some of the producers. That was not done. I am in a sense doing myself harm from an electoral point of view in saying this, because my constituency has a very large number of poultry producers; but the naked, brutal fact is that it is easier to import eggs than to provide the feeding-stuffs to produce them here. A lot of nonsense
  1198
  has been talked about the provision of feeding-stuffs for racehorses. I am no supporter of racing, in the sense that I go to a race meeting only about once in four years; but I understand that if all the oats which are used for feeding racehorses at present were used for feeding poultry, they would produce one additional egg per head of the population every four years.
  I do not want to detain the Committee long, because my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is going to speak. I come now to my main point. I wish, once again, to urge that in the course of this discussion we should apply our minds to the question of making the best possible use of the enormous area of land in this country which is not producing animal or human food. May I say, as a preliminary, that the situation in regard to the increased production of human foodstuffs from the land for this harvest of 1941 is far less satisfactory than the majority of people in this country—or probably even in this Committee—realise? An enormous area, which is increasing every day, has been taken away from agricultural production for the purposes of war industry, aerodromes, and the requirements of the War Office in various ways.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): Hear, hear.
  Earl Winterton: I am glad to hear my right hon. Friend say "Hear, hear." He and the Prime Minister ought to bring the facts into the daylight. The public are led to believe that there will be an enormous production this year. So much land has been taken that, even with a favourable harvest and with all the extra ploughing that has been done, the increase will be very small. On the one hand, there will be a reduction of shipping space, which we cannot help. Even though the issue of the battle of the Atlantic be victory, we shall lose a number of ships; and we shall have to use a great many more ships than we did last year for the conveyance of our troops in the Middle East. This is a most serious situation. I know, having been formerly an assistant Minister at the Air Ministry, that that Ministry requires land which is highly suitable for agricultural purposes. It requires land which is flat and well drained, and, if possible, land which is

  1199
  in good health. Unfortunately, the interests of agricultural production and of air defence are the same so far as land is concerned—both want the same kind.
  But I sincerely hope that the Minister of Agriculture will make the strongest possible representations to the War Office about the manner in which quite unnecessary damage is done to the land. I could give personal examples of action which can be described only as the result of gross ignorance on the part of the rank and file, and of failure by the officers to see that unnecessary damage is not done —gross lack of discipline by the units generally. I want to ask, is everything possible being done, both in the case of land which is already in production and in the case of other land, to hurry up these schemes for riparian and ordinary land drainage? That is of the utmost importance.
  Some counties, like the county of West Sussex, have done a great deal by serving orders upon individual farmers to compel them to open their ditches. As far as I could see, when travelling through the country the other day on a certain rather sad occasion to the West of England, very little has been done in a great many counties. I passed through hundreds of thousands of acres of land on the railway and I could not see a newly cleaned ditch, and a lot of that land lay in Wiltshire. That is not so in West Sussex. Apparently notices have been served upon owners or occupiers, as the case may be, compelling them to deal with ditching. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs or any expert on agriculture knows that, on heavy land, ditching and drainage is the key to the position. We should like to have a word on that subject.
  What an astonishing thing it is really that after 19 months of war you should still see in this country, within 50 miles of this capital city of the Empire, more land which is capable of producing food for human beings or for animals or being used for grazing animals but which is not so used, than you could see in any similar tract of land in any Western European country. What an astonishing situation. What is wrong with the British that in this time of crisis they allow such a state of affairs to remain? What is wrong with this House that not more of
  1200
  us deign to protest against it? What is wrong with the British people in this regard? Is the food situation so satisfactory that we are able to look ahead and say, "We have had privations"—perhaps that is too strong a word—"or certain, deprivations with regard to food recently, but it is only a temporary period, and we can look forward to the time when food will be in abundance." It is not true. The Press and indeed all the representatives of the people of this country ought constantly, day by day, and week by week, to draw attention to this glaring anomaly which exists in our very midst and ask for an explanation. My right hon. Friend, as did his predecessors, to whom all credit is due for what they did, is trying to get the utmost fructification from the existing land, which is already being cultivated to produce the most that can begot out of it. But we have reached almost the limit of what can be done in that respect. My right hon. Friend shakes his head. I do not think that he will disagree with me when I draw attention to what is going on in all the dairy counties in the South and West of England. If we have a dry summer this year the majority of the dairy farmers— the small men—will be very short of keep. Of course, I agree that experts say that in the long run more arable land on dairy farms is to the advantage of the herd. That is a question of long-term policy and not short-term policy. You cannot turn cows on to the land in summer where the wheat is half ripened if you want grain for other purposes. We are going to be seriously short. What do the dairy farmers see? It is astonishing that I, with no claim to be anything else but a Tory— some of my friends may call me a Die-hard Tory—a landlord, should have to call attention to these matters. They see thousands of acres of the land meant for grass actually filled with gorse and all sorts of growths, and thousands of acres of deer parks grazing nothing but deer. What is the explanation of this extra-ordinary situation?
  Mr. De la Bère: What about golf courses?
  Earl Winterton: And golf courses, too. I am very glad that my hon. Friend reminded me. It is not a question of the original sin of private or public owners. They are all in the picture— the whole lot of them. The owners of public parks

  1201
  are as much to blame. Take the case of Hyde Park. What an example it would be. Some of the land in Hyde Park, I understand, is good land. What do we see? A few experimental plots or allotments for the police. Why has it not been ploughed up? What about Richmond Park, which is under the control of the Government? Why is nothing being done there? I would like to know the answer to this question of deer versus ordinary farming practice. Are deer a valuable commodity? If they are an essential part of the meat supply of the country, then their sale should be controlled. Private individuals and public authorities should not be able to keep deer and have as much meat as they want; deer should be in the meat ration. They take up a great deal of land in feeding these deer.
  1 say to my Tory friends that if we want to maintain, as I do most emphatically, the principle of private ownership after the war, we had better stir up some of these people at this moment and point out to them that there are cases in juxtaposition of small farmers at their wits' end how to carry on the grass crop even in summer, and who have been ploughing up land. I know that in some cases it has been impossible to get land ploughed; they cannot get labour and are working infinitely hard. These people with small capital are really working as only small farmers can. Next to this sort of farm you may see an enormous deer park with nothing but deer. There are vast areas of commons controlled sometimes by the lord of the manor and sometimes by boards of conservators, who are among the most reactionary people in this country, who do nothing. They should be taken over by Order-in-Council. It does not require legislation. We should provide the labour of conscientious objectors, Italian prisoners of war, when they come over, and for the use of pole-harrows and disc-harrows, or they should allow these lands to be used for grazing the herds of these people. It should be done at once and by Order-in-Council, in my opinion. There is a law which is rather typical of the urban point of view in this country which says that if a man turns out his cattle on to a common and they should advance one inch on to the road he is charged with allowing his cattle to stray on to the road. Really, in time
  1202
  of war, I think that that law might be abrogated. Motorists, in view of the desperate need for food production and grazing in commons, should put up with the inconvenience of driving slowly over commons because of grazing. It is really ridiculous and one of the instances of the way in which we are treated in this country.
  I do not speak as one who has not some knowledge of this subject. I assert with confidence that, if you applied the energy, enterprise and care, there is very little land in this country, except the higher land and moorland, and the moors of Scotland and certain moorlands and commons in western England above a certain level, which could not be put to use. I do not wish to embarrass my right hon. Friend, but I have been over the land of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, which was very poor land when he took it over, and I have seen what can be done, and, in a small way, I have done something of the kind myself. There is too much of the old high farming idea among some leaders in the agricultural world. They think in terms of: "If I do this, I shall ruin the land for the next generation." But it does not matter whom you ruin so long as you keep the people of this country from starvation; it does not matter whom you ruin so long as we win this war. If the war situation was less serious than it is, I could sympathise with farmers who say that they were badly treated after the last war. I was among those who protested about it. We shall no doubt be badly treated after this war. One should say to all these people. Do not worry about these things. The man who is going over the top to dash down the enemy does not say, "Before I go over, I want to know what will be done after the war." He has to kill the enemy. We have to kill the enemy of the actual privation of food.
  In conclusion, I would like to say that this question of dealing with our home front in every sense of the word ought to be tackled on a broader basis than has been the case up to the present time. I do not want to embarrass my right hon. Friend the Minister. I am one of his great suporters. I believe him to be an excellent Minister of Agriculture, and I think he carries authority in the Cabinet, but I must say that he appears to get

  1203
  singularly little help in many respects from other members of the Cabinet. We have had three great war-time Prime Ministers in this country. One was Pitt, another was my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs and the other is the present Prime Minister. Pitt had somebody to help him far more than is realised by those who have not read his history, and my right hon. Friend beside me, in his generation, had a man like Lord Milner. But who is there in this Government to say to my right hon. Friend the Minister in any dispute between him, the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Food,"I represent the Prime Minister; come to my room, and 1 will settle it"? If there is such a man, he is a singularly modest Member of this House. None of us expects the Prime Minister to be present to-day—and I make no complaint of it—but as an old and personal friend of his, I make an earnest appeal to him to realise that this question of the home front, food production and distribution is as important as the strategic policy of this country. I thank the Committee for the attention which it has been good enough to give to the points I have raised, and I would only add that we shall never rest satisfied until we see that there is a real increase in the amount of home-grown food available for our people in this country.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): Since I have had the honour of being a Member of this House I have heard a number of speeches from the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, but I think I shall carry the Committee with me when I say that he has just delivered one of the best speeches to which we have ever listened. I, personally, would like to thank him very much indeed for what he said about my efforts and to tell him what a great help his speech will be to me throughout the country. During the course of my speech I will deal with the points he raised.
  I think there is still a great deal of confusion among the farming community and in the public mind about the objective of our food production campaign in this war, and I hope the Members of the Committee will excuse me if, before I come to what the farmers are doing and our plans for the future, I try to state for two
  1204
  or three minutes the fundamental factors in this situation. I believe it is vital that the community, both collectively and individually, should understand the immensity of the problems with which we have to cope and the size of the effort we have to make if farmers are to fulfil their task of keeping the people of this country adequately fed and the morale of the people high. I think it is only fair that the public should realise to-day what it owes to the farmers and what it will increasingly owe to the farmers, despite Hitler's efforts to stop them. I would like to make one or two comparisons with what happened in the last war, because the food production campaign of 1916–18, with which the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) will always be honourably associated, forms a very good guide.
  First of all, what is the size of the human population of this country which has to be fed? In 1917 the number of human beings, civil and military, that had to be fed from the United Kingdom amounted to about 41,000,000. To-day it amounts to 47,750,000—an increase of 6,750,000. That is a fact which I think is not realised at all. Secondly, the area of land in this country which we have available for feeding these people has decreased in the interval by no fewer than 2,500,000 acres. Part has gone for roads, aerodromes, garden cities, suburbs and new factories, while a lot has gone completely out of cultivation and has reverted to scrub, rough grazing and bracken land. Not only has the total amount of cultivated land available decreased by this figure, but the amount of arable land has actually decreased by 4,500,000 acres. Therefore, the problem we had to face at the outbreak of war was this: We had a very much larger human population to feed from a smaller area of cultivated land, and a very much smaller area of land under crops. If I may put it in another way, for every 1,000 acres of cultivated land there were, in the last war, 1,195 people and in 1940 for every 1,000 acres there were 1,521 people—an increase of over 25 per cent. The problem was complicated by another factor, namely, that during the interval there has been an increase in our livestock population and the average level of the fertility of the soil has gone down.

  1205
  In some areas, used for pigs and poultry, the fertility has gone up, but taking the country as a whole the average level of fertility has gone down very badly indeed.
  I have already referred to most of these factors, but I recapitulate them to give the Committee an outline of the picture. For 60 years British agriculture was predominantly concerned with livestock. Some 60 to 80 years ago the whole of that livestock was fed from home sources. Gradually these were supplemented by imported oil-cakes and cereals. During the last 20 years, despite the difficult times for agriculture, the livestock population of this country has increased materially, because imported feeding-stuffs were available in increased quantities. There has been a big increase in the pig and poultry population and to a lesser extent an increase in cattle and particularly in our dairy herds. The trouble was that in order to save losing money farmers used these imported feeding-stuffs not to supplement the produce from our own soil but rather in substitution for production from our own soil.
  The result was that between the outbreak of the last war and this war the production of fodder roots and fodder crops for livestock in this country fell by one-third. In other words, we were keeping an increasingly large amount of our livestock by being able to import on an average over 6,000,000 tons a year of feeding-stuffs as such. But while the livestock population was increasing land was going out of cultivation and fields were understocked. Even though there was a reduction of 4,500,000 acres in our arable land, Sir George Stapledon has estimated that there were 7,000,000 or 8,000,000 acres of second and third rate grassland; so it was not even a question of changing over from arable farming to good grassland farming. On the contrary, it was a change-over from arable farming to indifferent grassland farming. In wartime we cannot possibly expect to import more than a small fraction of our pre-war supplies of feeding-stuffs. This was the problem that we had to face. We have to feed an increased human population and an increased livestock population, and to do that we have much less imported feeding-stuffs, a smaller area of cultivated land, a smaller area of arable land, and reduced fertility of the soil. I feel sure I
  1206
  shall carry hon. Members with me when I ask them to bring these facts home to their constituents. Until people realise the magnitude of the problem, they will not be encouraged to make the necessary effort to put forth the last ounce of their energy.
  Mr. Lipson: I am sure the Committee are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the figures he has given. Will he also state what has been the increase in the yield per acre owing to improved methods of farming?
  Mr. Hudson: As I have said, there has been an improvement in fertility in certain areas of the country, but over the country as a whole fertility has decreased. How are we to meet the problem? My answer is: We can do so in one way only —from our own soil. We have to rely upon our own soil and what we can produce from it in order to meet the situation. We have to rely upon it not only to grow increased crops, such as wheat, potatoes, sugar beet and vegetables, which have to be sold off the farms for cash direct for human consumption in order to ease the strain on our shipping, but in addition, to grow largely increased supplies of feeding-stuffs to keep our livestock alive. And what is more important, we have to grow it in winter and in summer. It is no good having grass for a dairy cow in summer if there are no arable crops or silage in winter to keep up the milk production from the cow. The problem of keeping livestock through the winter is even more serious than keeping it through the summer.
  Before I go into the details of what we have done, I should like to give the Committee a picture of the results of our campaign so far. In 1914 and 1916, before the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs started his food production campaign, about 32 per cent. of the cultivated land of this country was under crops. By the end of 1918, he had succeeded in raising the figure to 38 per cent.—a very fine effort. When we started at the beginning of this war, instead of having a percentage of cultivated land under crops of 32, we had only 28. In the same period, however, two years, we have actually increased the percentage from 28 per cent. to 40 per cent., that is to say that, by this Spring, when the ploughing campaign is finished, we expect that the farmers will

  1207
  have increased the percentage to 40. To put the matter differently, 2,300,000 acres were ploughed up in the campaign in the last war. By this Spring, we expect 3,750,000 acres to have been ploughed up in our campaign. I do not think anyone can legitimately say that the farming community has not made a very remarkable contribution. Not only have we ploughed up those acres, but for the last seven months we have been engaged in a campaign to try to increase the productivity of existing arable land, to try to improve the remaining grassland, and above all, to try to raise the average standard of efficiency of farmers. I hope no one will regard the figures I have given, encouraging though they are, as being any ground for complacency. We must always bring home to the farming community the fact that we started this war at a very much lower farming level than we did the last war, and there is much more leeway to be made up and much farther to go. It is vital that this should be brought home to the country on every possible occasion.
  Let me now deal with the details of our activities. A good deal of the ground has been covered by the Report of the Select Committee on National Expenditure, and if the Committee agree, I will, to save time, take that as read, although in passing I should like to thank the members of the Select Committee for the way in which they dealt with my Department and for their useful criticism. As far as the County War Agricultural Committees are concerned, the burden we are casting upon them continues to grow, and the Select Committee paid them a handsome tribute which I think was very well deserved. One of the main difficulties they are up against at the moment is the lack of technical staff. We have combed the country and drawn upon every source, but they are still desperately short of technical staff, and that is due to the failure of the pre-war system of agricultural education.
  Earl Winterton: Has my right hon. Friend tried the Dominions and the Colonies?
  Mr. Hudson: I am afraid they want them for their own agriculture. With regard to the Farm Survey, as the Committee know, the survey was ordered last year, and it has now been completed. It
  1208
  is no exaggeration to say that without that survey a great part of the detailed progress that has been made during the last nine months would have been impossible. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs may remember a talk which he was kind enough to have with me soon after I was appointed to the Ministry. He will be glad to know what a lusty child has grown up in so short a time out of a little suggestion which he made.
  Mr. Lloyd George: I always pressed in the House for a survey.
  Mr. Hudson: It is the most important single thing that we have done. It is the first time that we are able to get any idea in detail of the condition of agriculture in this country. Of course, the way in which the survey was made varied from county to county, but on the whole, it was very well done, considering the speed with which it had to be done. I have decided to have it revised this year on a uniform basis, and this would have been put in hand already but for the additional work caused by the introduction of rationing of feeding-stuffs. I hope the new survey will include a detailed record of every single farm, together with a map. It will be of great value for the food production campaign, but of even more value when we come to discuss post-war agricultural policy, for we shall have for the first time some detailed statistics on which to work. The Forestry Commissioners have, I understand, carried out a survey of private and public woodlands, and my Department and the Forestry Commission are working in close liaison; that information also will be of extreme value for postwar reconstruction when we come to country planning.
  I turn now to drainage. I am sure that any considerable increase in arable land next winter—and I am persuaded that a considerable further increase will be necessary—is entirely dependent upon whether or not we can get a large area of water-logged land in this country drained, not only main drainage but also farm drainage. Of course, the limiting factor are labour and machinery. An encouraging start has been made with farm ditches, but it is no more than a start, since the announcement concerning a grant was made. As to machinery, a number of machines have been delivered and are now

  1209
  in the hands of the county committees, and many more have been ordered and are on their way. The Committee must realise that in this matter I am competing both for steel and engineering products with the Service Departments.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Is it not the case that the Minister of Supply has said there is no shortage of steel at the moment?
  Mr. Hudson: There may be no shortage of steel, but the difficulty is finding works which are available to make these machines, and also the necessary engineering labour.
  Earl Winterton: I have been in touch with what is called the Tractor Producers Association, and I understand that if certain things are done, they can turn out all the tractors required.
  Mr. Hudson: I am not talking about tractors; I am speaking of drainage. As regards labour, my right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War has, during the last 10 days or so, provided me with 3,000 members of the Pioneer Corps who will fill the vacancies of the 1,600 men referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Horsham. We have a certain number of conscientious objectors on the job, also a certain number of aliens, and I still have hopes that we may get some Italian prisoners. But when all that is done, there is still need for increased supplies of labour. If I had them, I could make use of them and do a great deal more. They are wanted now —not next winter or next summer, but now.
  Mr. Shinwell: Are you going to get them?
  Mr. Hudson: Housing is of course, one of the difficulties, and is one of the limiting factors. Most of the available housing accommodation in these counties is either filled with evacuees or has been taken over by the Services. We are requisitioning all the suitable houses we can find and plans are now in operation for building at suitable places in the various counties a number of hostels which will accommodate about 50 people each. These hostels will be available for mobile gangs of men or women who will be available to help with various agricultural jobs, such as ploughing, harvesting and so
  1210
  forth; this should help to some extent in solving the problem.
  I should now like to refer to what was said by the Noble Lord with reference to parks, golf courses and derelict land. When I first looked at it, I must say I felt rather attracted with the idea of some general ad hoc body dealing with this problem. But I have come to the conclusion that that is not the best way to tackle the problem. There are three limiting factors—labour, machinery and fertilisers. At any given moment it is a very nice and delicate matter to decide what is the best use to make of our total supplies of labour, fertilisers and machinery. Is it better to use them to increase production on the land which is already cultivated, or is it better to devote a certain proportion of the supplies to bring new land into cultivation?
  As a result of the Survey made last summer, and the visits I have made to all the county committees in England and Wales, I am convinced that much the quickest and biggest increase in production—and, after all, we are concerned in this crisis with speed—can be obtained by increasing the productivity of existing arable land, and by improving existing grass land, and above all by improving the standard of farming, and pushing up your "B" farmer to an "A" farmer, and your "C" farmer to a "B" farmer. Hon. Members may say that we ought to have more machinery and more fertilisers. I should be delighted to have additional supplies, but it must be remembered that these supplies come from abroad. Under present circumstances, to import unlimited supplies would impose a further serious strain on our shipping. Therefore it is always a delicate problem.
  But I hope hon. Members will not under-estimate what is actually being done. I cannot give any exact figures, because I do not want to bother the committees with a surfeit of returns. But our best estimate is that we have somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 acres at present being dealt with by the committees. To bring home to hon. Members a comparison of what that means, I would refer them to the work which has been undertaken by Italy. No doubt they have read about the reclamation by the Italian Government of the Pontine Marshes. They started in 1926,

  1211
  and up to 1939 they had reclaimed some 200,000 acres, of which only 125,000 acres are arable. That was regarded as a great triumph in Italy, and as a considerable achievement abroad. In our case, it was only in the late summer when I went to see our committees that they were authorised to get on with the job, and it was not until August that this House passed the necessary legislation. Our committees in the course of their day-to-day business have, in seven months, done very nearly as much as it took the Italian Government to do in 13 years.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Are they comparable with the swamps of Italy?
  Mr. Hudson: No, Sir, but it is a good comparison as far as total acreage is concerned of the land brought back into cultivation. Let the Committee also remember that a great deal of this land which is being reclaimed has not been cultivated since the last war, that much of it has not been cultivated for generations, and that part of it has never been cultivated in history The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and the hon. Lady the Member for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd George) will be interested to know that we have tackled, and are tackling, 4,000 acres in Anglesey alone— the Maltraeth Marsh. As regards parks, I found that when I was appointed I had no powers to deal with them. We now have powers to deal with parks as a result of a necessary alteration in the Defence Regulations. Taking the country as a whole, a good deal of the park-land has been ploughed up, and a good deal has been improved as grazing land, to be used as a reserve for cattle from neighbouring farms where grassland is being cut down. There is still more to be done, but in fairness it must be remembered that the soil of park-land is very poor and that it includes numbers of trees whose roots make it difficult to plough. Again I have instructed my committees to try to get an additional contribution from golf courses, but usually the more expensive the golf course the less use it is from the point of view of agriculture. I have asked and am trying to get a contribution from this source.
  Mr. De la Bère: My right hon. Friend will appreciate that there are very few trees on golf courses, and that many of them would be far more suitable for cultivation compared with some of our farms.
  Mr. Hudson: Where they can make a contribution they will do so, either by ploughing them up or by improving the grazing for sheep.
  Now let me turn to the question of labour. The difficulty about labour, of course, is that in agriculture as distinct from industry dilution is very difficult. On the other hand, there is no doubt that it will have to take place to a certain extent and there may have to be a certain amount of transfer from one part of the country to another. As regards the Women's Land Army, there was a great deal of prejudice against their use by farmers, but I am glad to say in the last few weeks that prejudice is disappearing, and the demand now is actually greater than the supply. Recruits have been coming in very well since the industrial registration of women was foreshadowed. The pace of recruiting has increased, and I hope we shall get a reasonable supply from this source. As the Committee knows, the call-up of agricultural workers from the farms has been postponed until after the harvest.
  As regards machinery, supplies, home-produced and imported, are substantially in excess of peace-time levels. I should like to be able to give the figures, but it is better not to do so in the public interest. I am sorry, because they tell a very good story. It may interest hon. Members to know that we have received a large consignment of agricultural machinery from Australia for the first time in our history and it has proved extremely well suited to conditions in this country. As regards fertilisers, I made a forecast about supplies in October and said I hoped that they would be in excess of those of 1939. That forecast has been realised, and farmers will receive increased supplies. Next year we hope supplies will be even greater. There have been immense difficulties and exasperating delays, but I think the back of these has been broken with the help of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister of Transport, and any farmer who took our advice and ordered

  1213
  his supplies early should get them delivered in good time. Indeed in the case of nitrogenous fertilisers supply is in excess of demand, and in view of the importance and the value of these fertilisers for securing an increased yield from grass and many farm crops, I am very disappointed at the meagre response that farmers have made to repeated appeals to take up all the supplies that are available. I have sent out a circular asking committees to make this still further known to farmers. It is not even yet too late, but nevertheless it is disappointing that when we have taken all this trouble to get supplies the farmers arc not taking them. As far as phosphates are concerned, supplies are greater than in 1939 and I hope that next year they will be greater still.
  [referred just now to the shortage of technical officers from which we are suffering. That brings me to the question of agricultural research, which I regard as of very great importance. The Select Committee described the present state of affairs. I had already reached the conclusion from my own investigations that the position was not satisfactory. Certainly the results of British research, which are not inconsiderable in themselves, have only too often in the past been made much more use of by foreigners than by British farmers. I represented the matter to the Lord President of the Council, within whose purview agricultural research falls. A Committee was sitting under the chairmanship of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, concerned with the extent to which the Government are making use of scientific research, and they considered this question. The Lord President of the Council has asked me to state the action which it is now proposed to take to remedy the existing state of affairs. The Agricultural Research Council will be granted an increased sum for use at its completely unfettered discretion in promoting basic or fundamental research. It is hoped by this means that it will be possible to use, to the advantage of agricultural research, the very best brains in the scientific world. As I said, the Council's control over the use of this sum of money will be completely unfettered. At the same time it will continue, as in the past, to exercise general scientific supervision over the research being carried on
  1214
  at the various institutes. This will be done, as heretofore, in consultation with the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself.
  At the same time we are impressed with the need of taking more active steps to see that the results of research are made known to the ordinary farmer and given greater opportunities of establishing themselves in everyday practice. To this end I propose to appoint a body for England and Wales which will be responsible to me directly and which I hope will command as much respect in the agricultural world as the Agricultural Research Council does in the scientific world. The functions of the new body will be twofold. On the one hand, it will be concerned to devise methods for seeing that all promising results of research are applied as rapidly as possible to the problems of agriculture and are incorporated in the practice of the everyday farmer. On the other hand, it will keep me informed—so that I can advise the Agricultural Research Council—on any problems of agricultural practice which it considers should be the subject of scientific investigation. The name of the new body has not been decided, nor have its members been appointed. A further announcement will be made on this in due course. As Scottish problems do in many respects differ considerably from those of England and Wales, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland will appoint a similar body for Scotland. I should add that it is hoped that members of the Agricultural Research Council will be appointed both to the English and to the Scottish bodies so as to preserve as close a liaison as possible.
  In connection with that, I am going into the question of the reform of the system of agricultural education with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education. Clearly the reform of agricultural education is vital if you are to improve the general standard of agricultural training. We have got to start with the elementary schools and this is very much in our minds.
  Sir Francis Fremantle: You will have to start with the teachers.
  Mr. Hudson: No one realises that more than the teachers. Now may I say a word about waste? There seems to be

  1215
  a general impression that if only you could collect all waste food, it would suffice to keep up our pre-war number of pigs. Unfortunately that is not so. The amount annually available is difficult to estimate exactly, but the Ministry of Supply believe, from sample tests, that it amounts to some 450,000 to 500,000 tons a year. Of that figure 110,000 to 120,000 tons have already been collected by local authorities and sold to farmers, 60,000 to 70,000 tons are being collected by contractors and by farmers themselves. Then you have the large number of pig clubs; probably 30,000 to 40,000 pigs are being kept by pig clubs and individuals. Then there is the food consumed by 15,000,000 hens belonging to nearly 800,000 backyarders and small producers. When you deduct the whole of this from the available supplies, it is probable that only something of the order of 100,000 tons are still available for collection. We are taking steps with the Ministry of Supply to get that amount collected, but even if the whole of it were collected, it would not allow us to keep more than another 150,000 pigs. In any case with increased strictness of rationing the amount of swill, and especially the feeding value of swill, is likely steadily to diminish.
  Before I sit down may I say a word about policy, especially livestock policy? The Select Committee on Expenditure said that they felt entitled to emphasise that there is bound to be waste of national resources if there is uncertainty about policy; that the policy of agricultural production cannot, without waste, be changed from season to season, but should cover a definite cycle or rotation. They go on to say that the difficulties of fully achieving this aim in the difficult conditions of war are realised, but nevertheless the aim should be kept in view. I naturally agree with that in theory, but do not let us under-estimate the difficulties of applying it in practice and of forecasting at any particular date the development of the war and the effect that that development may have on agriculture. Let me illustrate it by the history of the last 18 months. Before the war our agricultural policy was based on two assumptions, both reasonable at the time. One was that France would remain our Ally and the other was that modern methods newly developed would keep the sub-
  1216
  marine menace more or less within control. No one could reasonably have been expected to foresee the conditions in which we actually found ourselves last June. It was then clearly necessary to have a change of policy which would have a profound effect on agriculture.
  The first thing was to warn farmers of the change. The most important thing is to warn farmers as long ahead as possible of any change of policy. They were warned that they must make themselves as far as possible self-supporting in feeding-stuffs for their livestock. Meanwhile we set to work to thrash out the details. It was finally decided, I am glad to say, that we should go all out for the maximum increase in total production. It was within that framework of trying to get the maximum possible production that we decided to encourage and give priority to the production of certain foodstuffs to which special importance was attached, such as milk, potatoes and vegetables. We also decided that it was very desirable to keep our agricultural balance and our policy as flexible as possible. We told the farmers through the committees of the various priorities and we told them to become as self-supporting as possible in feeding-stuffs and to grow dual purpose crops, for the reason that if things went well or reasonably well those crops could be fed to livestock, and if things went ill we should be able to eat the livestock and also the crops.
  To-day I think that it can be claimed that we are reaping the advantages of that policy. We have got through the winter despite serious losses of food and feeding-stuffs at sea and on land. We got through the winter with our milk production virtually maintained. The figure of liquid milk consumption for January was the highest in our history. We got through with reasonable supplies of the important vegetables, such as potatoes, carrots, and greenstuffs, and with our herds intact. We asked farmers to keep a reserve of meat on the hoof as far as feeding-stuffs would allow. At the beginning of the year we took stock of the position to see what changes in policy, if any, were necessary. The first thing to recognise is that there is bound to be a shortage of imported meat because of the claims of the Middle East campaign. That shortage will continue for several months, and British agriculture will have to make good that shortage in order that the meat ration

  1217
  for the people may be maintained. We shall have to kill off a larger number of cattle than usual in order to do it, and our policy of maintaining a reserve on the hoof has now been amply justified.
  In the last war the main effort was devoted to increasing the production of wheat and potatoes. Incidentally, the production of milk fell seriously, and the production of meat also fell. In this war we have not only to increase the production of wheat, potatoes, and vegetables, but we have also to keep up milk supplies and, in addition, to grow increased supplies of feeding-stuffs for our cattle. Above all things, we have to avoid the mistake we made in the last war to some extent, and which the Germans made to a much bigger extent, of maintaining a large head of cattle on a bare maintenance ration which will produce neither meat nor milk. That is a sheer waste of feeding-stuffs. It is far better, in our opinion, to keep a rather smaller head of cattle alive reasonably well fed and producing milk and meat than to have them, as a farmer put it to me, walking about doing nothing but growing old. If the farmers co-operate loyally in carrying out this policy, we can by the autumn have in this country a head of livestock which we can keep through the coming winter in reasonably good condition on home-grown feeding-stuffs and producing meat and milk. In addition, we shall have large supplies of cereals and vegetables for human consumption. Agriculture will still remain flexible and well-balanced and capable of making a still bigger effort, as it will probably have to do next year.
  The exact details are being worked out. The sort of general picture is a culling of the dairy herd on a selective basis, getting rid of the poor yielders. We hope that it will have little or no effect on the total milk production. We shall have to have a slight reduction in beef cattle, which will be helped by the lack of intake from Eire, and keep up the numbers of hill and arable sheep. The existing reduction in lowland grass sheep must be continued. Pigs and poultry will have to be reduced to from one-quarter to one-third of their pre-war level. In the country generally we shall have to plough up more grassland. We are consulting county committees on the task they can perform this year and also on the equally important
  1218
  question of reseeding worn-out arable. It is clear that if you have taken two or sometimes three white crops, you have to make arrangements for restoring fertility. A circular went out only yesterday to committees giving them advice and asking for their views.
  Earl Winterton: Are compulsory powers to be taken to clear commons of gorse so that they can be used for grazing? This applies particularly to the south and west of England.
  Mr. Hudson: That is a matter of balance between labour and machinery. We are doing something, but it is a long job and expensive of labour and machinery. It is a job that will be done as far as we can do it. we shall have to have more ploughing up and reseeding. We are considering whether we can make more efficient use of the fertilisers that are likely to be available, and there will be an intensified campaign for drainage, both arterial and farm. We have to consider the better cultivation of existing arable and the improvement of the remaining grassland, and we have to raise the standard of the farming of the less good farmers. This means a greater application of the results of modern research to ordinary farming practice. All this sounds a formidable programme. It is, but it is not one whit smaller than the nation's need demands. If it is asked whether it is within the power of the farming community to do it, I say that it is. The wherewithal, the tools, are there. The farmer knows what his prices are to be, and that on the whole they are reasonable; he has a guaranteed or safe market for everything he can produce; ample credit is available; and he has largely increased supplies of machinery and fertilisers already at his command, and more have been arranged for and are on the way. He is sure of his existing skilled labour until after the harvest, and we are taking steps to supplement it. Above all, he has available the best technical advice in the kingdom, free of all charge to himself, if he will ask for it.
  There are a number of hon. Members, and in particular the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, whom I have heard preaching, year in and year out, on the necessity for an agricultural revival and the need for making proper use of what is, after all,

  1219
  our greatest national asset, our land. I am sure they will agree that once land has gone under, once a farm has deteriorated, it is not an easy or quick job to get it into condition again. In ordinary times one would say you could not do it in one or two years. Considering the difficulties, and despite the difficulties, an immense revival has been accomplished by the farming community. The very face of the countryside has been transformed, as any one can see who travels about. Not only has it been changed physically, but I believe there has been a change of spirit, and I believe that I can see a new spirit of enterprise and a new realisation of the vital importance of the task that lies before agriculture.
  Mr. Price: The right hon. Gentleman has just given us a very impressive and interesting account of what his Department has done to play its part in our national war effort, and I think I can say that he can rely upon every hon. Member here to back him up in that work —to impress upon those connected with the land the immensity of the task that still lies before them and to insist that there must be no resting from their labours in the carrying out of that policy. If I have to offer a few criticisms of what he has said I assure him that they will be of a purely constructive character. We all agree that there is a big leeway to make up. I think the Committee on National Expenditure, which not long ago issued that very interesting Sixth Report, struck the right note when it said:
  '' There is consistent evidence of need to establish a spirit of confidence in order to get the maximum productive effort out of the farming industry."
  The industry feel, I think, that with present prices fixed they have the confidence which will enable them to carry on, but I agree with the Minister that the task now is to increase output and improve the efficiency of the farming industry rather than actually to increase the acreage under the plough. Here again the Committee on National Expenditure made a very wise remark, in Section 47 of its Sixth Report:
  "It will be necessary to have more selective methods in the Orders for ploughing up grass land in the second year and in the directions for improving the cultivation and yield of existing arable land, the latter being the aspect of the policy which requires greater attention."
  1220
  That, I suggest, is the next problem which the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry has to tackle, and its record in dealing with it is the one upon which it will be judged in the course of the next 12 months. I fear, indeed I know, that the yield, from a very large part of the land which was ploughed up last year was unsatisfactory. That is because the land was hastily ploughed up in the winter of 1939–40. It was not limed. Often the old pastures were sour on the surface, were suffering from lack of drainage, and consequently there were poor yields. Although I know it is not possible to get the figures, I have a very strong suspicion that a very large part of the land ploughed up in the winter before fast has not produced what it should have produced, and I fear very much that a lot of land which was ploughed up this last autumn and this winter will not produce what it should.
  This depends upon what I call the upland drainage. I mean by that the surface drainage of that land above flood level which does not come under the jurisdiction of catchment boards or the internal drainage boards. Years of depression have brought it about that farmers have economised and not cleaned out their ditches; they have allowed the outfalls of their surface land drains to get blocked, and an enormous amount of leeway has to be made up in this connection before it can be said that the position is satisfactory. I am glad that the Minister hinted at his difficulties in this respect, because I am sure he is correct. The Agriculture Act, 1940, deals with the problem from a financial point of view. There is now no difficulty in getting the necessary finance for dealing with the problem. Grants of an adequate and generous nature are available, but it is now a question of finding the materials and the staff and the labour to carry out the work.
  I am satisfied that the drainage departments of many county councils are, not equal to their task, largely because they have not sufficient staff. I know that it is difficult now to get trained men, but possibly the Minister might see whether the universities and the agricultural research institutions might be able to help him out. Are we encouraging a sufficient number of young students to take up this work on condition that if they pass their

  1221
  preliminary examinations they will be exempt from military service if they continue in this career? I think that is one way in which, in the course of the next 12 months, we ought to be able to get recruits for this very important national work. It is just as important to see that the drainage staffs of our county councils are properly manned as it is to see that the few hundred men, perhaps, who are concerned go into the Armed Forces. I know the difficulties in these times, when so many are claiming exemption from military service because this or that occupation is said to be essential, but I put in a plea for these men, because I can assure the Minister that unless there is an adequate staff for this drainage work the yields in the coming harvest and in the harvest that will follow will not be what they ought to be.
  Drainage is one aspect of the problem of raising our yields; the supply of artificial manures is another aspect. The Minister seemed to be rather too complacent about the supply of artificials. I am not so sure about it. I am inclined to think there is a definite shortage. I know there is a shortage of potash and I hear that there is a distinct shortage also of super-phosphates.
  I have some evidence also that distribution is not taking place in the right way. One of my hon. Friends informs me that things are going on in Herefordshire which ought not to go on, in respect of the distribution of important artificial manures. I have heard the same thing from other sources. I understand that the Ministry advised farmers early in the winter to put in their orders for artificial manures. In many cases farmers did so, but now they are being superseded by people who put in their orders later and have certificates from the war agricultural executive committee, which puts them in a prior position to those who ordered their manures early in the winter. Contradictory orders of that kind ought not to take place. If advice is given to farmers it should not be superseded by the certificates issued by war agricultural executive committees.
  As regards the class of land scheduled for cultivation, it is very important that the most suitable land is ploughed and cultivated. I was glad that the Minister seemed to recognise this necessity. The
  1222
  less suitable land which is still under grass should be tackled in some other way. A correspondence took place in the '' Times'' not very long ago as to the wisdom of the policy of ploughing up old and valuable pastures. I think the Minister and his war agricultural executive committees are right in concentrating upon the ploughing up of the very best land, even the old pastures, because there has been a revolution in methods of dealing with these lands, thanks to the work done by the Aberystwyth College, the Agricultural Research Stations and the work of Sir George Stapledon. It is possible, in a very short time, to re-establish pastures after they have been ploughed up. We need not object now to the ploughing up of even the most valuable old pasture lands. In this respect, I would like to support the views of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) when he asks for the ploughing up of park land. There are difficulties, especially with trees, because it is not easy to get the plough round them sometimes. There are parks in my own county which have been ploughed up. One area of park land produced 40 bushels of oats to the acre last harvest, whereas it was just used for cattle previously. I know there are parks and parks, but it is important to do something with them if only for the moral effect produced in the countryside when people see park lands pulling their weight, as it were, in the great national emergency.
  There must also be recognition of the types of land which, more than other types, ought to be ploughed up. Some of the wold and downs land have tumbled down to grass in the last 20 years, because at corn prices then existing it was entirely unprofitable for ploughing. But with high evaporation they would never make very good pasture. They should now go back mainly to arable. That is a different matter to the problem of the heavy clay lands of the Midlands. Although they can grow very good corn they can also grow very good grass, and if much of them is ploughed up now, they will not yield what they should, unless certain preliminary measures have been carried out. Much of this land requires preliminary liming and surface draining. Care must be taken to see that there is no Procrustean bed established by the war agricultural executive committees for their

  1223
  areas, and that the types of land have to be considered according to their own separate problems.
  The war agricultural executive committee ought to be in possession of all possible information about the types of land and their potentialities. The Minister told us that the committees are in possession of certain reports and maps. I take it that he meant the reports of the Land Utilisation Society and the maps of which I have a copy here relating to a certain part of the country. The maps certainly give a lot of important information collected by the Land Utilisation Surveys, but I suggest that the information is not sufficient. These surveys merely gave the general types of use, such as woodland, arable, pasture or waste land, but a much more detailed classification is necessary of the types of pasture and arable land. The only way we can obtain it is by a vegetation survey of the unploughed pastureland. If one knows the percentage of good grasses in a pasture and the percentage of bad grasses, one has a rough idea of the state of the subsoil and the condition of the surface drainage, as well as possibly the geological formation; certainly also the rainfall and the rate of evaporation. All such factors combine in the creation of what is called the vegetation association of a pasture.
  I am sorry to weary the Committee with all these botanical details, but they are vitally important. I am not speaking without authority. A lecture was delivered at the Royal Geographical Society last autumn by Dr. Dudley Stamp, the head of the Land Utilisation Survey, who made a statement in which he showed that this was a very important aspect of land survey. He said:
  "A primary vegetation survey can be used not only to subdivide a region, but also to indicate its potential development and improvement."
  That is an important statement. Sir George Stapledon has actually done that work for Wales. Before the war, he and his collaborators made a vegetation survey of the whole of that area. No doubt, the war agricultural executive committees for Wales have the results of his investigations. What I want to know is, how far that is being done for England. I know that a vegetation survey was in progress at the outbreak
  1224
  of the war. I am not talking of the land utilisation survey; it is useful, as far as it goes, but we want something more detailed than that. We want to know in respect of each area, and, if possible, in each county, what types of pasture land there are, and what types of vegetation are growing on the pastures. Then we can say with much greater ease, "That land should be ploughed up rather than that," and "That land should have a higher percentage of arable than that." If we apply this scientific knowledge which is known to the agrcultural botanists, we shall be able to get for our war agricultural executive committees a greater knowledge and thus make it possible for them to carry on their task with greater efficiency. It is all the more important, too, because not all the war agricultural committees are as efficient as they might be. In the main, I think they are, but in some of them there are too many archaic types of farmers, landlords and agents. If the few which are like that were supplied with the material of these surveys, and if the Ministry had it as well, there would be no excuse for inefficiency. It would be easier for the Minister to put greater pressure upon them if the full weight of scientific knowledge was also on his side.
  There is another case where I think a survey of the type that I suggest would be very valuable. We have all to grow on the land a certain acreage of potatoes. Quite rightly it is thought undesirable to allow the potato production to be concentrated too much in one area, that the land which for decades past has grown potatoes as its main crop should not be the sole supplier of potatoes, and that the production of the crop should be dispersed well throughout the country. But there are certain areas, I think, where a vegetation survey would show that the potato crop is not likely to be at all satisfactory. The average cost of producing potatoes can run up to very high figures. But on an average it may be regarded as roughly around £30 an acre. Good yielding lands can produce 10 tons and more. Poor yielding lands—non-potato lands, I will call them—may produce only four or five tons. You may get areas—I know of some on the Cotswold hills— where that would happen, and it is indeed doubtful whether you could get out without a loss in certain types of the land in

  1225
  that district. I do not think it would be an advantage to the nation to have to grow potatoes on land where the yield was below a certain figure. I suggest that a survey of the type I recommend would give the agricultural executive committees some indication of the kind of land which they could press into use for growing potatoes and those types which could be excused from being so used.
  I would raise one point in connection with animal diseases. We have to face a reduction in the dairy herds and, in fact in all live-stock herds. But I suggest that if we could reduce, and if possible eliminate, four diseases of dairy stock, we should not only avoid any decrease in our milk yields but we should have an increase. It is estimated that four diseases of dairy cattle at present produce a loss of 200 millions gallons a year, to the value of £12,500,000. Those diseases are contagious abortion, sterility, mastitis and Johne's disease. Three of these diseases can be controlled by vaccines; the fourth, Johne's disease, cannot be controlled by vaccines, but blood tests can be made which can lead to the elimination of the reacting animal. That means that it is necessary that there should be a widespread campaign for the purpose of eliminating these diseases by vaccination and constant attention by veterinary officers.
  Usually these diseases are detected by the farmer when it is too late, and, therefore, what we require is a scheme whereby every stockholder will agree to have his herds examined every few months for a round payment every year. I know that a group of veterinary experts are interested in a scheme for the purpose of popularising this type of service, and I know, too, that the Minister has been considering it. I would ask him to give most serious and sympathetic consideration to it. I know that there are many difficulties. One is the necessity for standard vaccines. The vaccines are not often of a standard quality. The veterinary profession is not controlled quite in the same way as the medical profession, and vaccines not of the standard type can get into currency. That is one problem which I hope the Minister will tackle. The other problem is the training of the necessary veterinary staff, to make it possible for a nation-wide campaign of this kind. At the present time
  1226
  it is probably true that the veterinary profession is not sufficiently trained to handle this problem in large parts of the country. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give the most careful consideration to this matter, and that no professional jealousy, of which one hears ugly rumours in some quarters, will be allowed to stand in the way of initiating a campaign of this kind.
  I hope, too, that the Ministry will continue with its campaign to popularise production of silage. As the corn merchants' quarterly bills go down, the home-grown contents of the farmers' barns must go up. Roots, kale, beans, oats and, last but not least, silage must be the mainstay of the livestock farm in the coming year. Good work has been done, but there is one point I would like to raise here. I have grown silage crops for some years past, and I find that it is desirable to have, if possible, a chaffer and blower to chaff your silage and blow it up into your stacks. You get a better quality of silage if you do that. Unfortunately, the only blower and chaffer on the market is much too big and cumbersome, and is a highly expensive machine. Not less than £120 was the last quotation I heard. It shoots the silage up 40 feet in the air, which is quite unnecessary..What is needed is a small machine which will shoot up just the height of a small stack and cost not more than £50. Such a thing is not on the market, and I suggest to the Ministry that if they could see the agricultural engineers and induce them to get out a machine of that type it would be of enormous value in popularising the silage campaign.
  Farmers, in fact, are already turning their farms more and more into little fortresses of self-sufficiency, but I fear that just as they are beginning to do this the Ministry of Food will come along in the course of this year and requisition some of their feeding-stuffs for human consumption. We must not complain; we know the shipping position and it may force this to be done. Pigs and poultry will largely disappear in the course of the next 12 months, and beef cattle will no doubt follow. Sheep will be confined to the upland grazing lands on the Welsh and Scottish borders. It may even be feared that our dairy herds will be reduced. The richer lands of England will more and more have to grow human food which is

  1227
  required in this time of crisis, potatoes, oats and wheat, leaving to the Celtic borders the duty of keeping all the livestock which can be kept.
  I ask the Minister to bear in mind the great effect it will have on the fertility of our land if our livestock is reduced to a great degree It would bring us back largely to where we were in the years of depression. Reduced livestock will mean reduced animal manure, and you cannot altogether fill the gap with artificials. We shall for the next year or two live on the stored-up fertility of our old grasslands, but that will go after two corn crops, and it breaks a good farmer's heart to see his land robbed of its fertility. He may have to do it. We may have to steel our hearts "until this tyranny be over-passed," but I hope that the Minister will put off ths evil day as long as possible so that our farmers may still produce the maximum food for the nation while preserving the fertility of our native land.
  Mr. Donald Scott: I would draw the attention of the Committee for a few moments to a type of farming which has not already been mentioned, or has only been touched upon, a type of farming which cannot make its contribution to the national food-supply in the shape of either cereals, milk or potatoes. I refer, of course, to hill farming. There is in England and Wales an area of about 5,000,000 acres, and in Scotland of about 10,000,000 acres, of land which is returned every year as "rough grazing,' and a considerable proportion of it comes within the category of mountain, fell or hill land. I do not presume to speak with any authority for that type of land in Wales, in the Lake district or indeed in Scotland, but I have some personal knowledge and experience of that vast tract of hill country which lies between England and Scotland and which our forefathers called the "Middle Marches," and I take it that conditions there are not dissimilar to the conditions in other parts of the country.
  Those who have inquired into these matters will have found that all has not been well with hill farming for the past two decades, and that for a variety of causes. Hill farming has gone. down into the abyss of slumps in company with the
  1228
  rest of the industry, but it has always gone further, because the various aids which the various Governments have given have only helped the hill farmer indirectly. He has always had all his eggs in one basket, and this has not always been very profitable. That same period has seen a very grave increase both in the severity and incidence of certain sheep diseases peculiar to upland farms, such diseases as pine, lamb dysentery, louping ill and tick born fever. At the same time there has been a very grave progressive deterioration in the land itself from various causes, such as the growth and spread of heather and bracken and the neglect of drains. This is a very serious state of affairs, because of the importance of hill farming and of the contribution which that branch of the industry can make to the national resources. That importance is twofold, because the hill farms are not only the source of mutton and wool, and of store lambs to be fed off in the. lower country, but they are the source too of some of our basic breeds, the Black-faced and the Cheviot, which when they are brought down and crossed with the proper type of Border Leicester ram produce, the one, the Grey-Face or mule, and the other the half-breed, which has become one of the most popular breeds of sheep for the Lowland flockmaster.
  May I turn for one moment to the future? Every countryman and almost every thinking and informed townsman realises more and more the necessity, for the future, of a long-term policy. This is neither the time nor the place to discuss what that policy should be, but I am sure that many Members of this Committee are a little disappointed that we are not hearing more of the preparations which ought to be now being made in view of such a policy. Just as the ordinary farmer is looking forward to something, so the hill farmer is looking forward to a long-term policy which will suit his peculiar need and difficulty, and it may interest the Committee to know that on Friday of last week I attended a conference of hill farmers at King's College, Newcastle. It was convened by Dr. Weldon of the Agricultural Department there and was presided over by Lord Eustace Percy. People attended from the four Northern counties, and for six hours we listened to practical men, scientists

  1229
  and economists. We did not listen to grumbles; we listened to sound constructive criticism and I can well believe that during those six hours we saw the preparation of a seed-bed upon which one day a long-term policy may be sown.
  As I have said, this is neither the time nor place to suggest what that policy should be, but I am going to suggest, most humbly but with all sincerity, certain schemes which His Majesty's Government might put into force now and which, firstly, would have the effect of increasing production from the hills now, secondly would make no demand on raw materials or on shipping space, and, thirdly, may form a basis for the post-war policy of which I have spoken. A point which arises is that, naturally, any such scheme necessitates machinery. I submit that the machinery exists in the shape of the County War Agricultural Executive Committee and of the local committees, and all that would be necessary would be to give them slightly increased powers where they are dealing with hill conditions.
  I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend speak to-day of a further survey. The first job I would suggest would be a survey of the purely hill farms on the lines of that which has been carried out in the lowlands during the past year. Acting upon that, my first object would be to overcome the bottle-neck of hill production, the winter food supply. The average hill farm of several thousand acres has probably only a few hay fields, which have been stocked year by year until late in the spring. They have been hayed year after year, and the only manurial treatment has been a little farmyard manure. Consequently, their fertility has gone down and down, until it has reached a very low level. I should like to see the war executive committee giving orders to secure the correct manurial treatment of those farms, and seeing that those orders are carried out, even if it means an increase in the basic slag and lime subsidies, even if it means certain priorities being given to those hill pastures and people appointed to see that the work is carried out. Secondly, the creation of new hay fields on the hill farms should be achieved wherever possible, by enclosing portions of the Fells, ploughing them, and re-seeding them. I know that that is not an economic proposition if it is looked at
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  from the short point of view, but the time has gone by when we can look upon food in terms of pounds, shillings and pence. We have to look upon it in terms of life or death, victory or defeat. My third suggestion for dealing with this matter may sound revolutionary, and even fantastic. It is the introduction of silage on the hill farm. Experiments have shown that it is possible to make good high-grade silage out of bracken, grass and some sweetening material. I hope those experiments will be carried on during the summer, with a very much larger grant than has been given in the past.
  My next point concerns cattle on hill farms. In a great many of these farms in the last century one found cattle and sheep grazing together, and only sheep are found there to-day. Never was there a time when a reversion to the old policy was more necessary. It would require the provision of extra winter keep, but I have shown how that could be produced. Cannot we look upon the hills as a great cattle reserve, first, for breeding purposes, and, secondly, for feeding the older store cattle. That would have a great effect on sheep production, directly and indirectly, and it would help our meat position. Sir John Milne Home has said that where you have a hill farm capable of carrying a sheep to 1½ acres and can put breeding cows on it at the rate of one cow per 30 acres, your meat output is doubled. Obviously, you cannot do this on the whole of the hill farms: it applies only to a small portion of the farms.
  I turn to the question of heather, bracken and drains. Take heather first. Partly because of the old, absurd fallacy that what was good for the sheep was not good for the grouse, and partly for other reasons, there is a good deal of heather on the hills which is not properly burned. The old woody stuff which is of no use to bird or beast, and it plays its part in spreading disease. I am aware that the agricultural war executive committees have powers to supervise, and to order more burning. I am not going to labour the point. I will only ask whether my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary is satisfied that the committees are making use of their powers in a proper manner? We all know that bracken is spreading on the hills. It is coming down, encroaching into the fertile lands below, sapping the soil's fertility, and restricting

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  grazing. It is one of the most important factors in the spread of disease and in the increased incidence of maggot fly. For years, owing to continued and increasing neglect, the drains have not been running in the hills. Sour land is increasing, and this is another factor which makes for sheep disease. I am thankful that there are grants for draining and for bracken-cutting, but grants without labour are no use. Here is a splendid job for those Italian prisoners when we get them, and splendid unskilled work for labour camps from the towns.
  These problems definitely exist. I have had to go over them rather hurriedly. I do not pretend that my solutions are necessarily the correct ones, but I beg most earnestly that my right hon. Friend will look into these problems and set up machinery to see whether we cannot get greater production from the soil, not only this year but next year. The contribution that the hill farms can make may seem very small compared with that of the smiling valleys down below. But we are wasting part of that potential hill contribution and what we waste to-day we are going to want to-morrow. And wanting food we shall face defeat from starvation. The people on the hills, the shepherds and the farmers themselves, are almost a race apart. They are men of great patriotism, great skill, and they are very far-seeing. They are dying to make a great effort, but there are these various problems in the way. Cannot we have these problems removed? Then we can say, with all reverence, in the words of the Psalmist:
  "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help."
  Mr. Lloyd George: I did not hear the whole of the speech of the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Mr. Scott), but, from what I have heard of the last sentences and what I have been told by my colleagues here about his preceding sentences, I am aware that he has made a very valuable contribution to the discussion, and one of practical importance. I was very interested in what he said about the deterioration in the past years of the hillsides. I remember walking over the hills of Cardiganshire three or four years ago with Sir George Stapledon, and he pointed out to me hillsides which were covered with
  1232
  bracken, and along which the bracken was leaping onwards year by year. He said that those hillsides were once quite clear of bracken and provided good pasture. I think the hon. Gentleman made too modest an estimate of what the hills are capable of doing in the provision of pasture. Some farmers told me that if Sir George Stapledon's ideas were carried out the pasturage was capable of maintaining three sheep where formerly it could feed only one very sparsely. That would make a tremendous contribution to the meat supplies of this country, and it can be done at the present moment.
  I have not come here to criticise and least of all to censure. The right hon. Gentleman is the third Minister of Agriculture we have had during the present war. He was not there at the beginning. He had not made a special study of the agricultural problem, and he came to it quite new, when a great many things were settled which have turned out to be all wrong, and which are very difficult for him to alter, especially when it comes to dealing with personnel. The personnel of the agricultural committees are not his. They were not Dorman-Smith's either. They were all there before him, before he took up his job, and it is one thing to create a new body where you can choose your own men but quite a different thing to change men who are already in possession. The Prime Minister knows that. Nobody believes that this is the distribution of offices that he would have made if he had started afresh and appointed his own Ministry. There are so many men who would not really have been chosen. They are not quite good enough to be kept in their positions, but they are too good to sack. But that is a difficulty which a Prime Minister has when he is dealing with a Ministry which is already in existence, and it is equally true when dealing with agricultural committtees. They are not so bad as when poor old Jackie Fisher, when at the Admiralty, used to say, "Sack the lot." They are not that, but they are very mixed, and that is one of the difficulties with which the right hon. Gentleman has to deal. Some of them are quite good, a good many of them are fairly good, and a great many of them are thoroughly bad. I could name some of them at the present moment from reports which I have re-

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  ceived from men in the locality who have given me very good chapter and verse, and I have made some inquiries about them. They are not all in England. I am not sure about Scotland. I wish I were more sure about Wales. But there is not doubt at all that, if the Minister of Agriculture had had the chance of making his own appointments, in time, when he got accustomed to the realities of his job, it would have been a different thing.
  As I have said, I am not here to criticise and to censure, but I once more feel it my duty to come here to draw earnest attention to the peril in which we stand through lack of a real tackling of this problem.. That is not a criticism of the right hon. Gentleman. I want to make that fact clear. There are several Departments concerned, and you could see all that creeping through some of his own observations. There are several Departments—five or six. I am not criticising the Prime Minister, because he has a tremendous amount to do, but unless he himself takes special and particular interest in it and uses his authority, an authority such as he personally possesses, and an authority which any war Prime Minister must possess not merely in his own Cabinet but in the nation, and says, "This and this and this has to be done,'' it will not be done.
  I have come down here because I feel very uneasy and very anxious, and have a sense of something that is ominous unless this problem of food production is taken up on a more drastic, more comprehensive, and—I do not like to use the word '' revolutionary ''—a more thorough principle and policy than has ever been done either in the last war or the present. It is no use quoting the last war. We then had to deal with a serious problem. But it was not nearly as serious as the problem is in the present war, and to say that such things were done in the last war, and that such and such things which were not done are done this time, and that we have done better, is not enough. You are dealing with facts which are completely different from the facts which you handled in the last war.
  It is very difficult, as anybody who has been making agricultural speeches in this House must know, to get a real interest in the problem. The agricultural Debates used to compete with Scottish Debates in
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  the degree of interest which they excited in the House, and I do not know which of them won. The House was not interested. If you went to Manchester or Liverpool and delivered a political speech on agriculture, they would say, "He has lost his judgment. He has no sense of that in which an audience is interested." And it was never attempted. The country had lost its interest in agriculture. Seventy or 80 years ago, when agriculture was a real interest, it was almost the most powerful interest in this House. When I came here 50 years ago, it was a fairly powerful interest, but you could see it gradually waning, and we became a plutocratic, manufacturing and completely industrialised nation. The sort of feeling was, "Farmers are a hard-up lot. They are always hard up." The problem of agriculture was never discussed in the Debates. They simply said, "Let us give them something with which to carry on," just as if they were handing out alms. There was no attempt by any party to get to the root of the whole problem, and I never heard a real agricultural Debate in this House. It is one of the political boredoms of every controversy. When you recall occasions when there was excitement about some political issue 20 or 30 years ago in the House—as I do sometimes—when there was a frenzy over a certain matter, people say, "What a lot of lunatics there were in the House of Commons then." But the Members then were no more lunatic than the Members of to-day. There are certain things that excite at a particular moment, just as at the theatre there are certain fashions in plays. When you remind people that a certain play ran for two or three years, they are amazed. It is just the same with politics.
  Here is agriculture; it has always played to an empty house. You have subsidised the theatre to keep it going, and now the life of the nation depends upon agriculture at this grim hour. What is the position? When we discussed agriculture last year, in a series of what I thought were excellent Debates, we were then in very optimistic mood. We were sinking German raiders with every pyrotechnic circumstance that would excite the imagination, amid circumstances of real heroism. We were holding up the great German Army on the Maginot Line

  1235
  with concerts to our soldiers. The magnetic mine, which was Hitler's secret weapon, was silent. Then it came into use, but in a month's time we discovered the secret, and it was gone. We were in an optimistic mood when we came here and began to talk about the perils of the sea and the new perils of the deep and how they might develop. Nobody troubled then; it was in the days of "missing the bus." It was the belief of the nation, and it was the expression of what everybody felt at the moment. It was not any indiscretion on the part of any one man, however distinguished; it was the assumption at that moment. When we spoke of spending tens of millions of pounds for draining the land to produce food, £230,000 was all we were given, and we were told we ought to be thankful. This was the generous offer from a liberal-minded Treasury, with a liberal-minded high treasurer at its head. That was the feeling at the time.
  As a nation we are now rejoicing in a series of the most brilliant victories on land, at sea and in the air that have ever illuminated the military annals of this country. Never in so short a period in any war did we have such a galaxy of triumphs. Our wars have been slow businesses—a victory this year and perhaps another next year, like the victories of the Peninsula. But here you have a crowd that dazzles your eyes. Take care that it does not blind. Let me give two figures. This war has been in progress for 19 months. There is always the comparison with what happened in 1917. The peak of the sinkings then was in the 33rd month of the war. By the 19th month of the last war 1,800,000 tons of shipping were sunk. Now, in the 19th month of this war, 5,500,000 tons have been sunk. That figure does not take into account anything but what is known as losses by enemy action. It does not take into account the indirect losses by enemy action due to the black-out on the sea and the convoy system. The figure, too, is more formidable in this war than the last because there has been more inadequate accommodation for repairs to the vessels which have been damaged.
  I am not talking about the German figures. Naturally, they are exaggerated. In the last war I always used to insist upon seeing the German figures in order
  1236
  to check our own optimism. We always exaggerated enemy losses and always under-estimated our own. That was my experience of 4½years of war. The figures I have given here do not include losses of transports, and we have fewer cargo ships, by millions of tons, than in the last war. Here is another figure. In March, 1940, we lost 88,000 tons of shipping by enemy action. The official figures for March, 1941, are 377,000 tons—four times as many. The fact is that there were two essential services which we completely neglected during the whole of those 20 years, and it is extraordinary that we should have done so, having regard to the experiences of the last war. One was our shipping, and the other was our agriculture.
  I am told now, on the highest authority in this country, that of the Prime Minister, that in a few months the battle of the Atlantic will turn in our favour. We shall be reckless trustees of the destiny of this great Empire if we trust too implicity upon that one radiant thread of optimism. There have been so many that have been falsified on both sides. Therefore, once again I urge the Committee, when there is something on which the life of the nation depends, to take it seriously into concern, and if anything to give the benefit of the doubt to fear and apprehension. If you can cure it, do so. Do not take any risk.
  The lesson of the last war is obvious. In that war the vanquished won far more military victories than the victors. They could have put in the Unter den Linden an Arc de Triomphe covered with the inscriptions of as many great victories and the places where they were won as there are on the Arc de Triomphe. But as with the Arc de Triomphe the great victor was defeated 10 years after. So it happened in Germany. You must not rely too much upon the victories if there is one thing that is essential which you are overlooking. The Germans overlooked it in the last war. They destroyed the biggest army on our side, that of Russia. They overran Rumania, Serbia, and Belgium, and they broke the Italian army so that it was not fit to be put into the battlefield afterwards. That was not all. In the spring and the summer of 1918, they crashed through the great armies of France and Britain, and drove them before them. That was in the summer.

  1237
  When the late autumn came, their great and glorious army was like a tree shorn barren of its leaves.
  The nation is rejoicing in these great victories. The last time I spoke in the House, I ventured to anticipate that if we pressed forward we should have those victories, because I was convinced that the Italian nation had not its heart in this fight. It is not a nation of cowards, but it is a nation that will not fight unless it believes in the cause. I am convinced it has no belief in fighting this Hitlerian battle. But do not let us, because we are in this mood of exhilaration—shall I say, of intoxication?—forget this other business. Germany was beaten in spite of all her great victories. Why? Because she had no food. She had neglected her agriculture, partly before the war, but almost entirely during the war. She flung men into the battlefield as if the only field that mattered was the field of battle and not the essential fields behind the battle front. That is where she lost the battle. I urge that we do not foolishly neglect food production.
  What are we doing? The Minister of Agriculture made a very able and useful speech. He is showing very considerable mastery of the problem, especially as it is a job that he has picked up. He gave us some very great figures of how many acres we have ploughed. He said we have ploughed far more than in the last war. That is so. In the last war we ploughed enough to get through, and then we had the tremendous drain upon manpower involved in a war in which we lost in dead and wounded nearly 3,000,000. Luckily that is not the case in this war. But I will tell the Committee what the Minister has not told us. We have ploughed millions of acres. Would he mind telling us what is the increase in the crop? 1 noticed that the question was put to him a day or two ago and he refused to give an answer. He said that it was not in the interests of the country to give it. According to him, there has been a substantial increase in the contribution which the soil has made to our food, but if there is a substantial increase in the contribution, why should it not be in the interest of the country to say so? There is a very reputable farmers' newspaper, the "Dairy Farmer"; it has a high standing, and I do not believe it has ever any politics. It has written:
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  "There we have the weakest link in our defences. In spite of the ploughing-up campaign, the 1940 harvest exceeded the 1939 harvest in output by a mere 1½ per cent."
  I am told that is inaccurate. If it is, and if there is a considerable percentage of increase, would it be unwise, that figure having been published in a very reputable newspaper, to let us know? There is something wrong with this programme. It is not the programme of the right hon. Gentleman, but it is his predecessors? If the ploughing of these millions of acres does not produce a substantial increase in our crops, what is the good of it? You do not eat acres, and you cannot feed the people on perches and rods; it must be on quarters of grain and sacks of potatoes. What is the increase? If that figure is inaccurate, grossly inaccurate, let us know, because it will encourage us.
  I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman is taking land drainage in hand. According to Sir George Stapledon, there are 7,000,000 acres of derelict land in this country which, if taken in hand, could be made productive. The right hon. Gentleman said that you must take into account the fact that so much of our land has been absorbed by aerodromes, all kinds of military appliances, and encampments. In the last war we had encampments and aerodromes—we had a very formidable Air Force, although I daresay it is greater now, but if it is greater, then all the more reason why we require the derelict land to make up for that loss. Why is it not done? Take the question of drainage. What has been spent? In those Debates which we had—and I see several of my colleagues who took part in them a year ago—we urged the importance of drainage. I see the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture on the Front Bench. I hope now that he has changed his pew, and has got into what we call in Welsh chapels the "big pew," he has not suddenly forgotten the convictions he had when on the penitent's bench.
  We were all saying that you can drain millions of acres of water-logged land, but that scores of millions of pounds must be spent to do it. When the War Debt runs to thousands of millions of pounds, is it too much to ask for, say, £100,000,000 for something which is a matter of life and death in the conduct of the war? It is no use ploughing up land so long as it is

  1239
  drenched with water. The Government say they cannot get hold of it, but Stapledon says no one but the State can do it. That is quite true. The landlord cannot afford it, the farmer certainly cannot afford it, nor can he command the labour. We must conscript not merely men for the Army and for our factories; we must conscript acres as well. You must train and teach your conscript to make him a soldier, and you must train and cultivate the land to make it good soil. Neither man nor a field is any good so long as they are "wet." Therefore, take all these millions of acres in hand, and see that the State is behind you. Then what do you need? We are here with one Minister who is concerned. [Interruption.]
  Earl Winterton: Where are the War Cabinet? Why are they not here? It is intolerable.
  Mr. Lloyd George: Who are the men concerned? First of all, we need abundant labour. It is nonsense to talk about 3,000 who can be spared from the Pioneer Corps. We are raising an Army of 4,250,000, but can anyone explain to us what they are for, and what is the plan of campaign which is intended? In the last war we knew that millions were needed for France and hundreds of thousands for the East. There was no secret about it. You tell the Americans that you do not want men to help you to fight; therefore you are not going to send 4,000,000 of our men to invade the Continent of Europe and drive out 10,000,000 Germans. What are these 4,000,000 of our men required for? I know what they could do. We could have an army of pioneers which could double the production of the soil with the machinery which could be supplied. But in order to have this done—I am not talking to the Minister, because he agrees with every word I say: I am certain he does—we want the Minister of Labour and the Minister of War to tell us how many men they can spare, and also the Minister of Health to deal with the local authorities. We want the Minister of Food—[Interruption.] That is all right; the Parliamentary Secretary is here. [Hon. Members: "No family quarrels."] Perhaps we may have them afterwards.
  Above all, we must have the Treasury. The Treasury are not here. They just
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  cut down without any regard to the great policy behind the programme. Of course, we also want the Prime Minister. In all these things there are at least five or six Departments concerned. Another Department concerned is that of the Ministry of Supply. The right hon. Gentleman talked about machinery. What is wanted to make the most of the land? We want scores of thousands of workers, not necessarily of military age—there are hundreds of thousands of men who have been brought up on the land who are now engaged in other occupations—andmachines. Your machinery has now to be handed over to others. Very often after the machine has gone the rounds it has broken down, and you have to send it to be repaired. There ought to be abundant machinery of that kind. There are machines for potato seeding and hoeing. You have not got them. You ought to have an abundant supply of machinery. I am amazed at the lack of machinery when I go to the smaller farms.
  In the old days there was the son working, and very often you saw the girls working in the fields. Snobbery is the curse of this country, I can assure you, among other things. They always used to be proud to take part in farm work. But with all these things the Minister ought to be in a position to say, "I can supply every county committee with abundant machinery for all these operations." But he has to fight the Ministry of Supply, he has to fight the Ministry of Labour, and there is always the Treasury. He ought to insist upon that, and I am certain that if he comes to the House and says, "I have demanded this, and it is denied to me," they will soon find out that the House of Commons, at any rate, means business, because they are in contact with the people who see their rations cut, who see their ships being sunk, who see the grim spectre of privation, if not of famine, for themselves and for their children. Let us avoid it. The Minister of Agriculture must take his courage in both hands, and he has courage. Let him put the whole of his demands forward, and then he will get the backing of the nation and of the House of Commons. That is my opinion.
  He must tackle these committees. I do not know how they were chosen, but

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  there was no wisdom in it. An influential man is not essentially a good agriculturist. If a man has a great position in his county, they say, "We must put him there. We cannot possibly overlook him. We must at least offer it to him. He will probably refuse." He may not possess a tittle of common knowledge, but he accepts the job. A great many of them are not fit for the job. You have?o overhaul these agricultural committees from top to bottom. Some cases will require a little titivating and others a little chiselling, but in others they require a mallet. I will give the right hon. Gentleman the names of some of them. [Interruption.] Yes, I am sorry, but I dare not name them. What ought you to do? The right hon. Gentleman said they wanted technical assistance. They have not got it. When you begin to alter that system, you will find it essential that they should be given tremendous powers. The life of the nation is in their bands. You have not really equipped them with finance. You have not equipped them with real authority, or, what is still more important, with the technical advice which would enable them to handle it. Abve all, you have not equipped them with the independence with enables them to deal with their neighbours. They know what bad farmers they are, but they are neighbours.
  Farmers, though about the most individual body of workers in the Kingdom, are really a fraternity, and, if a fellow has been in a farm for a great many years, especially if his father and grandfather have been muddling on the same farm for two more generations, they say "It would be a pity to turn old George out," and they do not. There is a good deal to be said for it. There is a kindliness and a humanity about it. It is not an act of patriotism, but if they have to decide between neighbourliness and friendly feelings and even the higher patriotism, I think the former wins every time, and I am not disposed to condemn them. I have lived among them all my life, but they ought never to be put in that position. In my judgment the chairman ought to be an independent man with knowledge of the conditions. The right hon. Gentleman says he cannot find them. He can, if he pays them. There are a great many first class farmers, but they have their jobs.
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  It is no use asking them, "Will you not take this in hand?" They have their own farms to look after, and a great many of them have refused. What you have to do is to take them out and pay them, as you do in the Ministry of Food for distribution. I wish all the men there had been equally good for the purpose. They are not responsible. They have inherited some of the appointments that have come into their hands. You ought to have independent men and paid men. You can get plenty of paid men. You can get plenty of them for chairmen of the local committees, which are almost as important as the big committees, in fact, more important once they begin to do their job properly, because the big committee will always endorse what they do. You must put paid men in charge there—experienced farmers—and you must make it worth their while to do it. Unless you improve the quality of your executive committees, you will not answer the purpose and you will net achieve the result.
  Mr. Hudson: I do not follow the right hon. Gentleman's argument. In my speech I emphasised that one of the major items in my programme is to try and improve the standard of farming. One of the ways of doing it is to get rid of the hopeless fellow. A certain amount has been done, and I agree that a good deal more could and should be done. The right hon. Gentleman says that it is not done because the men concerned allow their feeling of neighbourliness to overcome their patriotism. If you get a farmer as chairman of a committee, it does not matter whether he is paid or unpaid, he will still be living among the other farmers and he will still be imbued with the same ideas of friendliness and neighbourliness. If you pay him it will not make any difference; he has still to live with them and will live in the same neighbourhood after the war.
  Mr. Lloyd George: The right hon. Gentleman is taking, as I was afraid he was, rather too narrow a view of the whole position. As a matter of fact, the things you are beginning now will not end with this war. If there were a fundamental mistake last time, it is that they did end with the war. We felt the need was over and we let things go on exactly as they did before. You have to get the whole of agriculture under the control of men with

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  knowledge and authority and who will have a professional standing as such among the farmers. Once a man says, "My duty is entirely to the Minister of Agriculture and to the Government," he becomes honestly a man who represents the policy of the Government. In a case of that kind he will do just as any other man does; he will not regard neighbourliness when he is carrying out the law of the land. At any rate, the present system is a very easy-going way of doing something which may make the difference between victory and disaster. I am not going to predict what will happen on the high seas. I think that the man who makes a prediction may be justified in encouraging the nation, but it is rather a rash thing to do and I would not put the life of the country upon possibilities of that kind. I would say that whatever happens in the Atlantic, on the high seas, must be redeemed by the soil of this country. I have always said that you could double the produce of the land, and I have never met an expert who did not agree. If you double it, then, with rationing and a rational diet, the people at any rate will not starve. I will say another thing. If you double the produce you will then in the next year add 50 per cent. to that.
  I do not know what limit you can put to the productiveness of the soil, but I am amazed at what the soil, and poor soil, will bring forth if you treat it kindly, feed it and sustain it. Germany made her mistake last time in overlooking the land. She thought that all that was necessary was to herd men on to the battlefields, and she left it entirely in the hands of Ludendorff and the rest. She has learnt her lesson. The right hon. Gentleman will know the Campagna, where Mussolini is draining 100,000 acres. If he will look up the records of the Foreign Office he will find that Hitler has reclaimed millions of acres. I saw with my own eyes 1,000,000 acres that had never been cultivated, which had been drained and was producing food. Germany has learnt her lesson. We have not learnt ours, not yet. Let the right hon. Gentleman go in for a bold, comprehensive, far-reaching policy and demand that the resources of the nation shall be put behind it, as it can be. Then he will achieve a triumph, and he can well say that if there is vic-
  1244
  tory for the battle of freedom, independence and right, the soil of England has shared the credit.
  Major Thornton-Kemsley: The Committee are indebted to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) for two things: firstly, because he was instrumental, with the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), in securing this Debate; and secondly, for the wonderful speech to which we have just listened. It was a grave and serious speech. The right hon. Gentleman put into it all that wizardry and magnetism which are so attractive to all of us, whether we agree with him or not. The Committee must surely be indebted to him for that. My own regret is that this great speech was not heard by every member of the War Cabinet.
  I want to concentrate upon two points. The first is my disappointment at what I can only call the mistaken policy of the Government in discouraging "quality" production in cattle. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, in a speech which the Committee greatly enjoyed, and which gave news which the country will be glad to read, spoke about his desire to improve the standard of farming: to raise the "C" farmer to the "B" farmer and the "B" farmer to the "A" farmer and so on. Unfortunately the policy which is being followed with regard to livestock is exactly the reverse. This Committee will be well aware that a well-bred beast with fine bone produces a far higher proportion of meat than a poorly-bred coarse-boned animal of the same weight. Experts tell us that the proportion of inedible bone in the well-bred beast may be as low as 14 per cent., whereas in the case of the coarse-bred animal it may be as high as 27 per cent. Till last July the production of beasts which yielded a high proportion of human food was encouraged by what became known as the "quality premium" of 5s. per live cwt. Unfortunately, that was withdrawn last July, and I hope I am not misrepresenting the views of the Ministry of Food when I say that it was withdrawn for two main reasons. first because it was felt that its retention would encourage the "finishing" of beasts on a larger quantity of imported

  1245
  feeding-stuffs, and, secondly, because it was thought that the assessment of the killing-out percentage of livestock in the market in present circumstances would throw too heavy a responsibility upon certifying officials of the Ministry of Food.
  The first of those two reasons depends upon two assumptions neither of which I submit is warranted by the facts. First there is the supposition that increased production of high-quality meat depends upon finishing-off the beasts with large quantities of concentrates, whereas that is not true at all. By discriminating selection and by careful breeding over a long period of years a type of cattle has been evolved which can be fattened without the aid of artificial feeding-stuffs. Secondly, this argument presupposes that a large quantity, or even extra quantities, of artificial feeding-stuffs are available, which, in fact, is not the case. As to the suggestion that an impossible task would be placed upon the shoulders of the Ministry's certifying officers, the advocates of the restoration of the quality subsidy are not asking for an exact calculation of killing-out percentages, but only for a restoration of the quality premium on a basis of conformation, in other words, that it should depend upon the outward and visible signs of an inward corporeal grace. The Minister's inspectors who, after all, are experts, can judge the quality of cattle. They are practical men, well able to assess the "form at a glance" of beasts that' they see. The one thing that is desirable in the national interest is to secure the highest possible return in meat for the amount of foodstuffs that is consumed. Quality cattle will give you that unquestionably, with the minimum of imported feeding-stuffs.
  The next and the final point with which I want to deal has already been referred to in the particularly interesting speech, if I may say so, which we had earlier from the hon. Member for the Wansbeck division of Northumberland (Mr. Scott) who spoke with such knowledge of hill sheep. For 10 years hill flock masters have seen their capital depleted by bad prices, and their difficulties have been increased by the falling-away in the demand for store lambs from the hills owing to the ploughing up of the low-ground pastures. Two problems are involved here. The first, and by far the easiest, is the problem of maintaining the
  1246
  existing output of mutton, by preventing a formidable decline in the hill flocks. The grant of the 2s. 6d. subsidy on hill ewes was an attempt to do that, but it was a temporary measure only. It was described by the Duke of Montrose as a "panic expedient," and he added that a panic expedient is not a policy. To solve the problem you have got either to increase your price for the requisitioned wool clip and your basic price for mutton or to encourage production by a bonus or subsidy —call it what you will —which bears some relation to the cost of production. The second and by far the harder problem is to extend your output. That could be done by securing a fair price and by making fresh ground available.
  I wonder if this Committee realises the extent of our failure to use the hills of Britain as sources of food supply. Millions of acres on those hills could play their part in the nation's effort if only we had the wit and wisdom to use them. No question of ownership stands in the way of that being done. There is not a landlord in the country who would not rejoice to see the hills carrying their full quota of mountain sheep. If remunerative and suitable prices could be assured for hill sheep, which require no imported feeding stuffs —none at all —the hill sheep would graze their way into the shaggy heath and the heather. If the price question could be settled —and that is an essential point in increasing production —the area of hill grazing could be greatly increased. Landowners would need to be encouraged to burn and to drain; agricultural committees to foster and to compel burning where that might be required, and an Amendment would have to be made to the Muir Burning Regulation. It might even be necessary to make Government grants towards the cost of fencing off the lower ground, for the construction of dipping places and perhaps, even, for accommodation for the shepherds, but any money spent in this way would be money.well spent, and would pay for itself many times over in increased production.
  Whether the policy is to be one of maintenance or expansion, it is clear that it cannot be carried through by the Minister of Agriculture alone. Co-operation is required, under enlightened and energetic central direction, between the Minister,

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  the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of Food, the Minister of Supply, the Wool Controller, and the Treasury. In the past these Ministers have not always pulled together. They have seldom sought advice and, where they have, as in the case of the 1939 wool clip, they have ignored the counsel of the greatest experts in the trade. The nation's need should compel this co-operation. If the problem were tackled with determination and good will there would be an enormously increased production of meat. Without it, the Government lay themselves open to the charge of wasting what my right hon. Friend has called one of Britain's greatest assets, the land of Britain.
  Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: I have listened to most of the Debates on agriculture since the war began, and one thing has become clear. It is that the House of Commons wants a policy from the Minister of Agriculture which is energetic and vigorous and which will produce too much food and will not take any risk about producing too little. As each six months or so go by, I certainly feel a little more satisfied about the position. The Minister has made the best speech that I have heard from a Minister of Agriculture since the war began, much the most encouraging and with a real grasp of the subject. He told us much that we were glad to hear. There is still an immense amount to be done, and I only wish that the position in the country was as good as the speech of the Minister. I am afraid that that is hardly the case.
  I happen to go about the country a good deal now, from one part of England to another, and I do not think there is anywhere near the doubling of the production of food from England. The estimate of the possibility of doing it is exaggerated in many ways. It can be done, but I cannot help feeling that the policy of the Ministry of Agriculture has been dictated far too much by the military circumstances of the time. So far as I can see, without any very close knowledge, it was about Christmas-time that a new and vigorous spurt was given to the policy. Last autumn, the intentions of the Ministry with regard to ploughing-up were not very definite. A certain amount was to be done. It was only when
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  submarine warfare became dangerous again in the late autumn that the Ministry thought again. Around Christmastime, there was a feeling that every possible effort should be made to increase the size of this year's harvest, and then we were told to brace ourselves to the loss of a large number of men on our farms. Only after public outcry, by pressure of events and by various other means, was the Ministry able to dissuade the other "powers that be" from calling up those men before the harvest this year.
  It is not just a matter of the number of men concerned. The number of men might be small, but there was an awfully bad effect. When the Ministry was warning us that we were to lose men, the average farmer was saying,"If the Government really want me to produce more, why should they tell me in the same breath that I am to do it with fewer men?" The position is not as it was in the last war. Farming had a very considerable supply of labour before that war, and it was comparatively easy to increase production because the tractor was introduced. Farms became much more mechanised. When this war began, agriculture had already been depleted of men and the tractor had already been introduced. So far from drawing more labour from agriculture, what is needed is much more effective means for drafting labour into agriculture. I was glad to hear that the Minister is taking steps to make use of gang labour, although I do not think 2,000 Pioneers the best way of doing it.
  In spite of these repeated Debates, there has only been, as the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) pointed out, a slow effect upon our agricultural policy, and the Ministry has not yet a real plan for agriculture. I doubt whether even now a real estimate has been made of what British agriculture is expected to produce in the next harvest. Perhaps there is an estimate of what will be produced next autumn, but is there any estimate of the next step? Has it been worked out between the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Agriculture? If it has, why cannot the information be passed on to the smaller authorities concerned, perhaps to the county committees themselves? Why cannot they be told, "In this county you are expected to produce so much of this and so much of the other"? They

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  have not been given that information. They have been told that their ploughing quota is so much, and it has been left very vague as to the crops they should grow. Discretion is left to local committees and to individual farmers. I should imagine that the county committee is not the right body to deal with the allocation of a quota of production, but regional committees would be the right bodies to stand between the Ministry and the county committees, and they ought to be given all the information about the areas concerned.
  As I go about the country I sometimes ask members of county committees what the position really is in their county. They tell me how much land they have ploughed up and how many farms they have taken over. Sometimes I say, "Yes, Put what do you know about what is produced here?" They give me vague answers then, such as that theirs is a dairy district or about what the arable land is producing, but they have no clear idea of what they are producing. I went into one county in the North of England, and after I had seen various people and asked them similar questions, I went to the authorities concerned, where I asked what the area really produced. The fact was that the most important crop, financially, produced in the area was one particular type of production, and it was not one that any farmer produced.
  If this policy is to be built up on a survey of individual farmers, you must give the county or the area, whatever it is, a quota to which to work. If you do not do that, whenever there is a more serious turn in international affairs the Minister will say that more must be done, that we must plough more, and the thing will be from hand to mouth. The trouble is that it always breaks down. We shall not get the full benefit of this year's ploughing because of the shortage of phosphates. The Minister was very guarded about phosphates. He said that we had a larger quantity than last year, but it is nothing like large enough to meet the need shown by the survey which has been carried out. I do not think the Minister can deny that. I do not think that he will deny that farmers all over England are crying out for phosphates. Surely that is an example of lack of coordination.
  Mr. Hudson: I have been round the country, and I have talked to a very large number of farmers. The number of farmers who say they cannot get phosphates is small. What you do not hear about are those who have got their phosphates, because most of the farmers got them when they were available.
  Mr. Roberts: That illustrates the very point that I am trying to make. Since the beginning of this war the Ministry have been working upon what is wanted by the farmer —the individual small unit. If the farmer does not order early enough, he does not get the phosphates, and that does not help the country. If you know that the phosphates are needed, you should see that the phosphates are there. That is what I thought was the business of the county committees. If the Minister says that we have as much phosphates as we can get, then I say that there should be a rationing scheme for fertilisers. Last July I pressed very hard for a rationing scheme for feeding-stuffs. I was told by the pundits at the Ministry that you could not do it. What was the result? It was introduced hurriedly, badly and very inefficiently. If you tell me that you have all the phosphates you can possibly get, and that you cannot get any more, even if the Ministry of Shipping would supply the space, again I would say that if you are to get all you can out of the land, you must have a proper rationing scheme.
  Mr. Hudson: If the hon. Member listened to my speech, he would know that I dealt with that point.
  Mr. Roberts: I did listen to the Minister's speech; there was a very great deal in it, and I must have missed that point. Grants and encouragement have been given for drainage, but there are many areas where the grants, the encouragement and the orders are useless because of the lack of drainage tiles. That is where you have to wait and see what the farmer asks for and find out whether or not you can meet those requirements. I have heard instances of where mole drainage has been made very much less effective because the tiles have not been available for the main drainage. Unless you make up your mind how much land is to bed rained, and have everything that is necessary to do it, there will always be some shortage. It may be too big a task to do in the midst of a war, but I would ask whether, instead of

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  working from the small units and finding out what are their requirements in fertilisers, feeding-stuffs, machinery and so on, it is not possible to use your survey and the knowledge which you have to decide what is possible, and then set out to see that you have everything to carry out that programme. I would make my target the doubling of the production of food in this country.
  I must deal with one contribution that could be made in that direction. We have heard to-day a certain amount about hill farmers. I also come from a hilly district, and, from what I gathered, most speakers touched on the best ways of tackling hill-farm production. Last spring I pressed the Minister to embark upon a big programme of re-ploughing and re-seeding. If that had been done the livestock which has now to be reduced could have been maintained on the newly created and very much more profitable grassland in the high-lying districts. You want manures, seeds and not only power, but the right sort of power. It may be that the Fordson tractor is the right thing to do the job, although I think a much bigger caterpillar tractor is really needed. We have been told to reduce our livestock. I am sure that on the 2,000,000 acres of rough grazing, which is the lowest estimate which Sir George Stapledon has made in his careful survey of the number of acres which can be easily, quickly and effectively improved, if you selected whatever seeds, manures, lime and labour you required, by the end of this summer and during next summer you would be able to maintain far more livestock than you have displaced by ploughing.
  Mr. Hudson: My hon. Friend has said what could be done on the 2,000,000 acres to which Sir George Stapledon referred if you had the manures. We all agree, but the fact is that the manures do not exist in the world. In order to get the necessary amount of phosphates, the United States Government have had to come in, and they have had to cancel a number of the contracts for phosphates which they had made with their own farmers. It is no use saying that you can do this if you get the phosphates, because more phosphates do not exist in the world to-day.
  Mr. Roberts: Then you have to do it without phosphates if possible.
  Mr. Hudson: In that case the hon. Member should not quote Sir George Stapledon, for Sir George himself told me that it is useless to do it without phosphates. If I have not got the phosphates, it cannot be done.
  Mr. Roberts: That certainly reinforces my previous argument. I have come to the same conclusion as the Minister, that it is absolutely vital that if this bottleneck in phosphates exists, they should be rationed, and it is perhaps a pity that it has not already been done. But undoubtedly it is not general knowledge that such a shortage exists. I myself bought a very considerable amount of phosphates ast autumn, and I did not know I was dealing with such a rare and valuable commodity. Farmers generally do not know it, and I have seen them use phosphates very wastefully. Let us therefore have a proper distribution according to plan and according to where the need is greatest. I believe that before long it will be necessary to allocate a certain amount of phosphates to the improvement of the upland farms.
  Mr. Hudson: I quite agree, but please do not let the Members of the Committee get the idea that by a wave of the hand you can transform all these millions of acres. That idea is doing a great deal of harm by preventing people from realising the importance of the task they have to carry out in making the existing arable land, which is already under cultivation, as productive as possible. Believe me, if we introduce a rationing scheme, phosphates will not be used for re-seeding 2,000,000 more acres, but for the much more urgent purpose of increasing the fertility of existing land.
  Mr. Roberts: That may be so, but if I am not entitled to quote Sir George Stapledon, I am entitled to express my own opinion. I wonder whether phosphates were so short at this time last year, before the collapse of France, when the policy might have been carried out. Perhaps they were short then. But you have to face the fact that this is a big problem. I am sorry to detain the Committee, but I would like to finish my argument. If the war continues, arable land is going to be very much depleted, not only in regard to mineral manures, but also in regard to that difficult and elusive substance which is called humus.

  1253
  In alternating husbandry, with its rotation from grass to arable crops and so on, that problem has been dealt with. Insistence on cutting out grass in the rotation, and on growing an increasing number of arable and other exhausting crops, will mean that arable land will be increasingly denuded of natural farmyard manure. Less livestock will be put on the arable land, and I again submit to the Minister that to use some of his precious phosphates to maintain livestock and milk production on hill farms will enable him to plough some of the good grass in the valleys and still provide a reservoir of livestock, maintained in the hills in summer and eating the straw and other by-products of arable farming on the lowland farms in the winter.
  The Minister informed us to-day that the importation of Irish store cattle is to be reduced or entirely stopped. That will mean a very serious loss of fertility to a very large quantity of land. In his speech the Minister talked about balance. If there is to be a good balance, he will have to persuade some of the upland farms to increase their production in order to maintain in the summer the livestock which will provide the necessary humus to maintain the fertility of arable land in the winter. I believe that hitherto the policy of the Minister has lacked foresight, and that this is one of the examples which shows the absence of balanced planning. I was, therefore, glad to hear of many of the things the Minister has decided to do which I am sure will be very much welcomed in all parts of the House.
  Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: I would like to congratulate the Minister not only on a very good speech, but on his clear exposition of the position of the industry, for which I am sure we are all grateful and which we shall do our best to impress on our constituents. He referred to the Sixth Report of the Select Committee, and I should like to draw his attention to paragraph 5 of that Report, which deals with the need to establish confidence in the continuity of policy. The evidence we have received is 'overwhelming as to the need for establishing confidence in the continuity of agricultural policy if farmers are to make plans for increasing production to the maximum possible extent, and
  1254
  I should have thought that the opportunity to provide for that continuity of policy existed at present in the National Government, with Members of every party well represented. Instead of a one year's guarantee after the war —and every farmer knows that that is not very much —would it not be possible for this Government to agree on the principles of a long-term policy which would get it out of politics after the war, thereby giving farmers the confidence which according to this Report they need?
  The farmer has to look ahead for more than one year. I have a field which last year grew a crop of wheat, after a great deal of expense. This year that field is down to oats, and such a good field of oats it looks at the moment that I have turned the sheep into it to reduce it. I have already arranged, since you cannot put more than two straw crops down, to put down all the dairy food I can next year —kale and roots and that sort of thing —and after that I want to turn it back to grass. You have to look forward for more than three years to get an agricultural plan going properly. To help in the creating of confidence, it seems to me that price levels in the market should be kept up. That is the way in which the Government up to now have tried to act, and there are two ways of doing it. One is by duties. Does anybody think that after this war, when the country is impoverished and the people want cheap food, duties will be allowed to go on and to be kept out of politics? I am afraid that no party could resist the temptation of a cheap food policy after the war, if the other side referred to it. And is the policy of subsidies to be a practical proposition after the war? We are already grumbling about the amount that is spent in that direction.
  There are other policies. There is that agreed upon by the Minister of Agriculture with the Dominions, of putting a price level at the bottom of the market, and of including the Dominions, and perhaps other friendly nations, in the arrangement. I want to be sure that these matters are being considered now. It is no use saying that in six months' time we may have a better plan. We want to consider these questions from the broad Empire point of view, and to do so now, when we have a Government composed of all parties, so that we may get

  1255
  continuity of agricultural policy, which will not be subject to party politics, and which will provide a price level that the farmers can bank on for five or ten years. In that way, the farmers will be given confidence. Now that we have made great strides in ploughing up our land and in increasing the fertility of the soil, are we to let that improvement go after the war? How are we to maintain it without a policy which will give agriculture confidence? I hope that the Government are not thinking of agriculture only in terms of the present war, but that they are preparing to meet its needs in peacetime, and to keep it going as it is going now. We shall have to look at things from an Empire point of view, in regard to both markets and prices. I hope that the Government will consider every suggestion that might help to maintain the gains that have been made in agriculture.
  Mr. De la Bè're: I listened with marked attention to the words of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Brown) It is refreshing to find myself in agreement for once with one of my hon. Friends on this side about agricultural problems. I am sure that my hon. and gallant Friend's vision for the future is a sound one. The Government must look ahead, and it is only by hon. Members making forceful speeches that we shall get anything done. I hope that the Government will take full note of the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend. I was very interested in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture. If I may say so, I thought it one of the best speeches he has made. It was very comprehensive, and an excellent endeavour to go through all the problems of agriculture on a large scale in a very limited time. My remarks to-day are not going to be levelled much against the Minister of Agriculture.
  I am going to talk about one thing which affects the Ministry of Agriculture as well as the Ministry of Food —that is, prompt payment. Many farmers cannot get their money from the Ministry of Food —I think that Ministry is the worst offender —and the Ministry of Agriculture. That is a serious matter, because the farmers are short of capital. The delay amounts often to six weeks, and sometimes to two or three months. Something
  1256
  should be done by the Ministers themselves to ensure speedy payment for all the various commodities that the Government purchase from the farmers. There was one part of my right hon. Friend's speech which made me sit up very sharply. It was that part at which he went very fast indeed, because he did not want me to interrupt. I thought that he had made such a good speech that I would be kind to him, and I did not interrupt, but I took note of what he said. He said that farmers had got all the credit that they could possibly want. I believe that they have, but what they have not got is credit at the right rate of interest. I can prove that.
  For years the farmers have been in debt to the banks for some £50,000,000. That sum has not varied for years. To-day, when one might have expected the figure to increase, it has actually fallen. The reason is that the farmers are being asked to pay for their overdraft accommodation at too high a rate of interest. So long as that goes on, the farmers will not avail themselves of the credits which are necessary. If they do not avail themselves of those credits, the country will be the worse off. I asked only yesterday why a small dominating group should be allowed to impede production for the national larder. No one has vouchsafed an answer. No indication is ever forthcoming that the Government intend to deal with this matter, and the same thing goes on year after year. I do not think it is the fault of the Minister of Agriculture. No doubt it is a matter that the Treasury should tackle. The Treasury should tackle the Bank of England. The Bank of England and the Treasury are one and the same—they are Tweedledum and Tweedledee—and so nothing is done about it. It is really time that the War Cabinet woke up and decided that a reduction was necessary and that the proper channels were compelled to act.
  Knowing that there are many other hon. Members who want to speak, I will mention only one other item in connection with food production, namely, vegetables. In my own division, which has a population of over 61,000, a very large proportion of the people are engaged in vegetable production. Vegetables are very essential to the national larder, and large quantities of these vegetables are daily being condemned as no longer suitable for human

  1257
  consumption. That is because there is no system for taking vegetables without delay from the places where they are grown to areas where they are not grown. I know I am in danger of getting out of order, but, with your kind help, Sir Dennis, I think I shall just keep myself within the narrow margin. I would ask for the help and support of the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Agriculture on this question of vegetables. I would ask them to allow their experts to go into my division—I mention my own division especially, because it is the largest individual producing area in the country—and ensure that there is no waste owing to deterioration and condemnation of vegetables, and to approach the proper department, the Ministry of Transport, on the matter.
  To-day we have heard, from my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), one of those inspiring speeches which do us so much good. I only wish that more Members of the War Cabinet had been present to hear it. That is at the back of it all. Every time I speak, I get on to this subject. Who is really responsible for agriculture not being given the full facilities which it is justified in having to-day? Of course, it is the War Cabinet. They are the supreme power. If they do nothing, no one else can do anything. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) was chairman of the committee of the War Cabinet dealing with agriculture nothing was done. I nailed that to the mast of my right hon. Friend the present chairman of the War Cabinet Committee, and the Minister of Agriculture has to-day shown that nothing further has been done. Can it be that there is no intention of ever going further in this matter?
  There is no bold, broad outlook at all on production, but it is left to the Ministry of Agriculture, which is a wee Cinderella, with nobody to help, but which must do the best it can, while all these people engaged on important matters of strategy are much too important to talk about food. Food does not matter, but rather it is some Napoleonic strategy, but do these pundits in the War Cabinet realise that, if we do not have food, all the marvellous faculties and words of wisdom which flow from the Foreign Office and from so many Departments in Whitehall
  1258
  will be of no avail? Food is of more importance than anything else to-day, and yet, as far as the War Cabinet is concerned, it is always put on to a secondary basis and made secondary to all else. It is, therefore, the fault of the War Cabinet, and if Members of the War Cabinet do not pay more attention to it, they cannot escape, at the end of the war, the just criticism that, at the time when we were struggling for our national existence, they did not use every possible endeavour to assist the national larder.
  Mr. R. J. Russell: I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) never used his eloquence to greater purpose than to stir this Committee to enthusiasm for agriculture at the present time, and one can only wish that that eloquence not only stirs this Committee as it has to-day, but that it will stir the country out of the complacency in which it finds itself. We have listened to a most interesting and helpful Debate on agriculture. I am reminded of a day, a dozen years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs went with me through an agricultural constituency and made 22 speeches, but that, of course, was when there was a fight on. I hope that I can speak with the conviction that, if we keep on, we shall register once again a great victory at the end of the speeches that are being made. We have listened to the speeches of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham and Worthing (Earl Winterton) and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, and most of us have felt gratified that they have tackled this subject in such a spirit.
  One point that was made by the Noble Lord struck me as being very necessary for consideration at the present time, because I happen to have been in contact with the conditions which call for action. An hon. Member opposite spoke of hill farming. During the last three months I have been fighting the snows in order to save the lives of sheep on a moor which is Crown property. There is a road across the moor, and a gate to prevent the sheep from wandering too systematically. That gate was left open by one or two individuals who are known, and who did it in defiance of all national advantage at the present time, with the result that dozens of sheep were lost, many of them with the

  1259
  consequent wastage of lambs. Something ought to be done to give the executive committees powers to stop such action as that.
  We have had speeches on high policy with which we have agreed, but I want to come down to the face of things. For some months past I have been spending every moment of time that I have had with my foot upon a spade. I have been working on a piece of land. Sixmonths ago I took over an area of some 70 acres of land that needed to be reclaimed, drained, phosphated and all the rest of it. The first thing to be done was to find out how to get the labour, and I do not as a rule have to look very far for labour when there is a job to be done, and I am accustomed to taking off my own coat. During the last few months I have done thousands of yards of drainage in order that the land might be made fit for cultivation. But I want to point out some of the difficulties of administration. We in this House discuss great issues, but the question is, how are they to be applied? Take the question of land drainage. The first thing to do is to pass the plan for the land to be drained, and there we struck the first snag. I got into communication with the war executive, and they were very helpful. Their technical advisers came along. The executive officer came and we walked over the land together, and he said, "This is the sort of land that needs to be done. Let us have your plan."
  According to the order, the plan has to be on a 25-inch ordnance survey map, so I rubbed my head. I had many ordnance survey maps, but in regard to this particular area I had not the map that was necessary, and, being in town, I went to the publishers and asked for a 25-inch ordnance survey map for this particular district. They looked at me in blank astonishment and asked, "Do you not know that there is an order that we shall not supply ordnance survey maps except to certain individuals?" I said that I did not know much about their order, but I would like to look at it. They brought out the order. We ran through the list of people to whom it was possible to supply ordnance survey maps, and I was in none of the categories, but after a lot of wangling I managed to work myself in between one or two of the classes, and I got my map. Then the next point
  1260
  occurred. This section of land was joined on to four separate maps, and therefore there had to be four maps provided, and you must make your plan upon that map. I did it. My point is, how is an ordinary farmer, who does not come to London, to face up to that? A little thing like that may hold up many schemes, although it is not holding up our scheme; we are going ahead. If you have land and stock upon it, you must have buildings to accommodate your stock, so I started in again, and the district surveyor came round to see me. He said, "Surely you will not concrete your floors in this weather," and I replied, "Hitler will not wait for the weather. This must be done now."
  How then were we to keep away the frost? I noticed on farms which I visited that there were petroleum heaters, and this brought me up against the question of petroleum supply. I wrote at once to the Secretary for Petroleum, and a letter came back saying that he was away, but would I communicate with another individual who would take up the case. I did so, and he proposed certain forms for return. I looked at the forms, and I wrote back to the individual saying, "I do not think you have any thing at all to do with it, but perhaps you know who has, and, if so, will you send on this letter?" A fortnight elapsed, and then I received another letter from another part of the country in which the writer said, "I do not quite understand your difficulty, but if you will go to the post office and get a certain form and fill it up, we will take serious and immediate consideration." At that I did a very unusual thing—and I hope hon. Members will forgive me for saying this—I said, "Damn the man," and threw the letter into the wastepaper basket. Across the other side of the road there was a county council storage yard where there were several braziers. I said to one of my men, "Take a cart, ' pinch ' the braziers and keep the frost off the earth."
  These different orders, cutting across one another, stop progress. I could spend a long time on this question, but I will deal with only one other point. When you have everything ready and the cattle are coming on, you have to consider their feeding and decide upon the amount of their ration. I wrote to the Controller of animal feeding-stuffs, and he replied saying that my case was one in which he

  1261
  wanted to help as I intended to increase the milk supply. He said, "Will you write to So-and-so, and he will see you are all right?" So I wrote, and after 10 days I received a letter saying, "We are sorry we cannot do anything in your case." How can one go to market to buy 40 head of cattle if there is nothing for them to eat? it is the man who tries to work out these various schemes who finds out the difficulties. It is difficult to visualise a holding or a Cheshire farm in the middle of Whitehall, but until that is done progress will be delayed. There is the will everywhere if we can only remove some of the impediments that are now in the way.
  Mr. Richards: I do not want to delay the Committee, because I know we are all anxious to hear the Parliamentary Secretary's reply. We have had a remarkable Debate to-day. It contained two outstanding statements with regard to our present position. The first was from the Minister, and the other was from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who took such a prominent part in this work during the late war. I am sure the Committee was tremendously impressed by the seriousness of our position as he, as an old and experienced warrior, sees it. There are one or two points which I should like to make. The new policy involves a very considerable change-over in the character of agriculture in this country. It means the complete switch-over from the ordinary kind of agriculture that is practised—from the growing of food for animals to the growing of food for men. We know that animals eventually pass on as food for human consumption, but the great problem facing the Minister is to cut out the intermediate stage and to substitute potatoes, for instance, for kale or turnips. It is to meet that difficulty that the Minister is encouraging the new process upon which we are engaged at the present time.
  I am not clear whether I understood the Minister aright. One of the critical features of agriculture at the moment is the great decline in the area of cultivable land in this country, coupled with the decline in arable acreage. I see that from figures given by an agricultural journal last September we started the last war with nearly 32,000,000 acres under culti
  1262
  vation. These figures are quoted from a paper read to the Statistical Society by the late Sir Henry Rew, who was secretary to the late Minister of Agriculture. I do not think they are at all in accordance with the figures given by the Minister, and that is why I raise the point. The actual figure quoted is 31,800,000 acres of cultivated land in 1915, and of that 14,250,000 acres were arable land. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs increased the arable acreage from 14,500,000 to 15,800,000, in 1918. The interesting thing is that he managed to do this although the total cultivated area was still declining. We started this war with a cultivated area of 24,800,000 acres. However, there were only 9,000,000 acres under arable cultivation. I was glad to hear from the Minister that this figure has been increased by 3,700,000 acres, bringing the total to 12,700,000, which is still 3,000,000 acres below the acreage ploughed in 1918 under the food production scheme of that time. I should be glad if the Minister would correct these figures if they are wrong, as I was unable to follow the figures in his speech.
  With regard to the question of increasing the productivity of the arable area, the Minister was very frank. All of us are anxious that productivity should be increased. A simple calculation shows that if one could increase the productivity of the arable area by only 10per cent., it would add another 2,000,000 acres to the arable area. However, as the Minister pointed out, increasing the productivity, as can be seen from the figures of the improvement in the wheat and oats production, is a very slow process. It depends upon there being adequate machinery, adequate labour, and an adequate supply of phosphates. The Minister has pointed out very frankly the very great difficulties with which we are faced. Let us hope that the position is not quite as gloomy as was suggested by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, but certainly we have a great deal of leeway to make up before we can feel that the land is doing anything like what it ought to do in these difficult circumstances.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. T. Williams): I think my right hon. Friend

  1263
  has no need to complain either of the tone or temper of the Debate. Broadly speaking, there have been no criticisms of his administration, and there has been a general appreciation of what has been accomplished in a short space of time. The Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) is entitled to our thanks for his reference to pigs and poultry. I hope that the warning which was ignored when it was issued by successive Ministers will be accepted now that it has been issued again by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord also raised again the question of derelict and uncultivated land. I think my right hon. Friend fully answered that point when he explained that action in that direction is wholly conditioned by machinery and men, and that since we are anxious to make the maximum use of land where an immediate improvement can be obtained, concentration on those areas is not only called for, but has been proved to be of real value. My right hon. Friend also explained that, apart altogether from any shortage of labour or of machinery which there may have been, between 100,000 and 150,000 acres of derelict land have been restored. As labour becomes available, I am sure that area will be vastly extended.
  The Noble Lord referred to Army and Air Force depredations. It is obvious that not all officers in the Army are Wavells and not all officers in the Air Force Longmores, and obviously there have been difficulties in various parts of the country. But I ask the Committee to take a balanced view on this subject. Since 1918, the total area taken over by the Army and the Air Force has been 345,000 acres, out of approximately 29,000,000 acres under crops and grass. This, of course, has had a psychological effect on landowners and farmers, and I hope that the same psychological effect will be created when speculative builders once again try to take over, not merely a few acres, but the millions of acres which, between 1918 and 1939, they took over for ribbon development. However, I can tell the Noble Lord that there is now a proper liaison between the Service Departments arid the Ministry of Agriculture, and the Ministry are now consulted with regard to any sites that are required either for Army or for Air Force purposes.
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  The Noble Lord also referred to drainage, and I will deal with that matter a little later.
  My hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) spoke of the advisability and wisdom of having a vegetation survey. All I can say now is that we have completed the survey which we began at the commencement of the war, and my hon. Friend's suggestion will be duly noted. My hon. Friend also referred to the shortage of fertilisers, superphosphates and potash in Herefordshire. My right hon. Friend has already made it clear both to the country and to the Committee that there is a shortage of those kinds of fertilisers. It may be true that in certain cases some farmers who, at the behest of the Minister, ordered supplies of superphosphates several months ago have found that other farmers who placed their orders much later have been able to secure a certificate from the County War Agricultural Committee and secure supplies first. That is due wholly to the shortage, from which there is no means of escape, and to the fact that the committees are very anxious to ensure that the supplies available are sent to those areas where they are most needed. It may be that there have been hardships here and there and that certain farmers who gave early orders are hurt because of what has happened, but I assure my hon. Friend that what has been done has been done exclusively in the interests of making fertilisers available in the areas that need them most.
  The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Mr. Scott) spoke of the hill farmers. I thought his speech was exceedingly clear and well put, but that perhaps it will have far greater application in post-war days than we can hope it to have during the war period. I would say to him that at this moment the Department are engaged in securing priorities for all kinds of materials for the erection of hostels and camps for holiday and seasonal workers who express a willingness to lend a hand to farmers during the coming harvest. I hope that what we are endeavouring to do this year will be merely a sign, and that, having acquired the labour, we shall acquire a new hill-farming policy which we can proceed to carry out when peace ultimately comes.
  I have many regrets that unfortunately the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)

  1265
  is not in his seat. He made his usual bright and breezy speech, and oratorically he was illuminating. He started by telling the Committee that he was not here to criticise or to censor, and when he said that I heaved a sigh of relief. As subsequent speakers have said, he mentioned the peril which faces this country owing to an apparent shortage of food. I thought, as the right hon. Gentleman proceeded with his speech, that he was doing our work in his own way, and I have no complaint about anything he said. If the inspiration he created will help to provide my right hon. Friend with the material, equipment, labour and what not, for us to succeed in our campaign, so much the better. But I must make reference to one or two remarks he made, because I feel that he tended to misunderstand the comparison which my right hon. Friend gave between 1917 and 1918, and 1939 and 1941. My right hon. Friend said that in 1939 he started with 3,000,000 acres less land to operate—that is 3,000,000 acres gone for ever for building and other purposes. He said that the problem was increased because of the loss of those acres, and quoted the figure of 2,300,000 acres, which 'were ploughed up during 1917 and 1918 at a time when there were 3,000,000 more acres available. He pointed out that in 1939 to 1941 we hoped by the spring to have ploughed up 3,75o,ooo acres, but that was not intended to reflect adversely upon the efforts which were made between 1917 and 1918, it was merely intended to indicate that the problem on this occasion was infinitely more difficult.
  I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that all the problems which he and I used to face when I sat on the opposite side with regard to Treasury scissors, and £5 and no more, no longer exist. The right hon. Gentleman has an open mind, the Treasury have an open purse, and facilities for drainage were never so easy as at this moment. Grants were never so generous and so widely drawn. Where drainage is not now taking place, it is due to the fact that either the landowner or the farmer has not yet seen the wisdom of draning his land, or to some piece of machinery which is quite unknown to my right hon. Friend and myself, which is barring the way to quick and easy schemes being carried through. My hon. Friend quite rightly interjects that the
  1266
  technical staff is not there. In that case as in so many other cases with agriculture, we are suffering acutely from the lack of policy during the last 20 years when there was little or no drainage done. At the moment when we want an intensive campaign for one thing or the other we find ourselves confronted with a shortage, and there is a very real shortage, of technicians to carry out this drainage work. Drainage schemes can be carried through to-day much more rapidly, than at any period during my term of political activity, and the grants are such that not only minor rivers, but field ditches, ought to be dealt with in a very short time, if the financial accommodation remains as generous as it is to-day.
  Mr. Richards: Has an agricultural executive committee the right to override the opposition of particular individuals in a case of this kind? The Minister referred to a case in Anglesey. Preparations were made for its drainage in 1917 but it was resisted by one rather powerful landowner.
  Mr. Williams: I can assure my hon. Friend that, wherever a war agricultural executive committee feels that a drainage "scheme ought to be undertaken, it can call in the catchment board at once, the catchment board can start to prepare the scheme and undertake the work and do all the writing, sending out notices and all that kind of work, while the scheme is actually being carried through. It never was as easy as it is to-day to carry through schemes of drainage, but we are suffering from 20 years of neglect, and we have failed, and we shall fail within two years, to repair the total neglect of 20 years. After all, there is still a 1921 mind among many farmers. There is still a Kettering mind. We have to remove not only the physical but the psychological difficulties in various parts of the country. We are actually reaping at the moment what Parliament has sown in the past because it failed to appreciate the real value of agriculture playing its normal and natural part in our national economy.
  Earl Winterton: In West Sussex compulsory orders are served on individual farmers ordering them to open their ditches and drains, many of which have been blocked for years. That is not a question of much labour. Are the war

  1267
  agricultural executive committees generally insisting on individual farmers cleaning out their ditches and telling them they will supply them with labour for the purpose?
  Mr. Williams: My right hon. Frond has circularised war agricultural executive committees time and again advising them, even intimidating them, into that form of activity, and I hope that what is happening in West Sussex is happening in all parts of the country. In any case the power is there, and I hope it will be exercised. With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's reference to priorities, I need to give only one figure to indicate that my right hon. Friend has not been unsuccessful when I state that 12 months ago we had approximately 53,000 tractors and we have 80,000 now. What we are producing and importing amounts to almost a 1,000 a week. Agricultural implements have increased by about 100 per cent. compared with 1939. So that we have not been altogether unsuccessful in securing priorities for the raw material for machinery.
  The right hon. Gentleman also made reference to war agricultural executive committees. I am sorry that he is not here, because I wanted to ask whether or not, when he referred to the friendliness and neighbourliness of farmers who would not do their duty, he actually wants to suggest that we ought to send, for instance, a Yorkshire man to Wales to turn out a bad Welsh farmer and, if we can find a good Welsh farmer, send him up to Yorkshire to turn out a bad Yorkshire farmer. I am not sure that that sort of thing would be better than the position in which we are at the moment. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will be pleased to read these figures. The war agricultural executive committees have taken possession in England of 1,714 farms, and in Wales 74farms, with a total acreage of 116,257. So that all agricultural committees are not wasting their time and allowing their friendship to step in between them and their duty. There is only one other thing I ought to say, and that is to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Brown), but as he has left the House I need not say it. The hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère), who is still here, referred to his hardy
  1268
  weekly—not hardy annual—and I should like to commend to his attention the Sixth Report of the Committee on National Expenditure, page 33. There he will find a perfect reply to his credit problems.
  Mr. De la Bère: My hon. Friend has set me going now.
  Mr. Williams: I happen to have only two minutes left—
  The Chairman: The hon. Member must watch the clock.
  Mr. Williams: I have only two minutes, and I must occupy them to the greatest value. Owing to a combination of schemes, we are bit by bit rediscovering England, the England we began to lose 20 years ago under weeds and bracken, under scrub and furze, under an economic system that cared little for the produce of our own soil. Under the strong compulsion of war we are beginning to farm instead of merely scratch the surface as we have done in the past. With machinery, labour and fertilisers I am convinced that we can not only beat the blockade but feed the people and restore agriculture to its proper dignified position. I hope that the nation is learning a lesson that it will not readily forget when peace ultimately arrives.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again" [Major Dugdale], put, and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

  ISLE OF MAN (DETENTION) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Colonel Clifton Brown in the Chair.]

  ISLE OF MAN (DETENTION) BILL.

    CLAUSE I. — (Removal of detained personsto Isle of Man.)
    Mr. Silverman: I beg to move, in page 1, line 14, at the end, to add:
    "Provided that such detention shall not be deemed lawful custody while any proceedings in which the validity of the original detention is in issue remain undecided."
    For those of us who spoke on the Second Reading the leading element in our uneasiness and anxiety over this Bill is the feeling that in some way, if men who are detained are removed to the Isle of

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    Man, their scanty remaining privileges under the law will either disappear or be removed. I understand it is the view of the Government that that is a groundless fear. I understand that they do not desire that any of the rights and"privileges of these people shall be in any way affected by this Bill. They bring it forward as a matter purely of administrative convenience, and perhaps in some circumstances of military necessity; but so long as those requirements are satisfied, the Government do not seek to take away from these detained persons any right which, but for this Bill, they would enjoy, if that is so, I respectfully suggest that they should put it beyond all doubt by accepting this Amendment, or some other form of words which appears to them to embody that principle and to carry it out more effectively.
    The Bill provides that people detained under Regulation 18B, or under, I think, 12A, the relevant Regulation under the Aliens Act, 1914, shall be removable to the Isle of Man, and while so detained shall be deemed to be in lawful custody. If this Amendment were accepted, I submit that the Government would lose nothing which they desire and would satisfy a good many fears which many of us have. If it were not deemed that detention in the Isle of Man were lawful custody at any time when the validity of the original Order under which the detention took place were under review by the courts, that would have the result not of setting the man at liberty but of making it necessary that he should be retained in this country until those proceedings were decided. What in the world would the Government lose by accepting that proposal? I suggest nothing.
    It is in every way more convenient that a man who is seeking the protection of the British courts shall be within their jurisdiction—I do not mean only their technical jurisdiction, but should be immediately available on the spot. It would be in the highest degree inconvenient to a man who wished to challenge the action of the Home Secretary to have to do it from the Isle of Man. It is difficult enough as it is. Those of us who have had professional experience in these cases know how frightfully difficult it is under the existing conditions when a person is detained either in London or in some place
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    not so far distant. You have to get orders to be allowed in to see him; you have to have your interviews in the presence of Government servants and agents, something which is unknown to the law of this country otherwise. Any other person charged with even the worst of criminal offences may consult his legal advisers privately, and he should be able to do so. The right to have legal advice, the right to say what you like with complete and absolute privilege to those who have the responsibility of advising you where your liberty is involved becomes almost nugatory if your privilege, your absolute privilege, has to be exercised in the sight and in the hearing of those concerned against you. We are not seeking by this Amendment to alter that position. I am only pointing out that, even in existing circumstances, it is extremely difficult for proper legal advice to be given. When you receive permission, you are all the time under the view and under the con-slant supervision of the gaoler.
    That is not all. The circumstances are such that the Home Office apparently find it extremely difficult to do what I am sure they themselves would think fair. Their representatives have said in this House time after time that, while a man has no right to be represented by a legal representative at the actual hearing before the advisory tribunal—they do not admit that right, and it is the only case of imprisonment known to this country where that right is refused—they wish that, in preparing his case for the advisory tribunal the internee shall have the fullest facilities for getting legal advice and for preparing his case. To do this requires time, and it requires that the man shall be told in good time as much as he is going to be told of what the charge is against him—" grounds for reasonable suspicion "or whatever it may be—and that he should be able to communicate those grounds to his legal advisers and be able to consult them before the hearing takes place.
    That does not happen. We have had cases in which the notice of grounds has been served on a Saturday morning—the notice of grounds does no more than repeat the Regulation under which the person is detained, without particulars of any kind—and the actual hearing before the Advisory Committee has taken place on the following Monday morning. That

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    has happened not in only one case, but in numerous cases. In those circumstances, the claim by the Home Office that the man is to be allowed full access to his legal advisers and consultation with them, even though they may not be there, becomes purely and entirely ineffective. I am not accusing the Home Office of bad faith, although it is extremely difficult to see what makes it necessary to serve notice on Saturday morning for a trial on Monday morning. The Home Office say that a man has ample opportunity of consulting his legal advisers. If the circumstances I have described exist when the man is perhaps within 20 miles of London, practically here on the spot or within easy access, what is likely to happen if the man has been sent to the Isle of Man and may have to conduct his appeal to the Advisory Committee from there? He cannot be visited except with very great inconvenience and delay.
    I ask the Under-Secretary of State whether he is ready to respond to this appeal? I have found him extremely difficult in these matters in the past, but I expect rather better treatment from the Solicitor-General. I do not know what the right hon. and learned Gentleman would say if he were still in practice and had to deal with these matters, as some of us have during the past weeks and months. I do not know what his legal conscience would prompt him to do or say in this House on this matter if he were not officially responsible and made officially answerable for it. It is becoming a public scandal. These men are left with no rights—no effective rights.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Is the hon. Member addressing himself to the next Amendment about the Advisory Committee?
    Mr. Silverman: No. What I am trying to do is to relate that to the importance of not increasing the difficulties under which everybody is working, but transferring men, in the case of whom there are proceedings pending before the courts, to the Isle of Man. In order to make that point, I am trying to show how difficult it is when they are here. When so little of a man's legal rights remain to him, and when one would have thought it quite practicable to make his rights effective, one is justified in feeling the
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    greatest possible anxiety at the removal to the Isle of Man of any man so detained when he has challenged the action of the Executive before the courts. I expect my hon. Friend, if he can, to reassure us upon these points. The safest and most certain way of assuring us that the man's rights will not be whittled down still further would be to accept this Amendment or some other Amendment which would make it necessary for the internee to be kept on the spot and readily available until the time comes for his case to be reviewed. It would be time enough then to take him to the Isle of Man. There is no need to take him before then, and if you take him before you worsen the position which is already very bad. It may be objected that this Amendment is very wide, that you would have to wait until he was in the Isle of Man, then start the proceedings, and set him at liberty at once. That is a little far-fetched. If there is anything in that, the wording could easily be amended to deal with it if the principle is accepted. Supposing you accepted it and had to set him at liberty in the Isle of Man he could not leave the Isle of Man, which is where you. want him. The moment he came out of the Isle of Man and came back to this country you could detain him at once. If the object of the Executive is to keep him in the Isle of Man you would be able to keep him there.
    So far the argument has proceeded on the basis of British subjects detained under Regulation 18B, but they alone are not concerned. There is another class. A British subject detained under 18B has certain rights. Those rights may be whittled down; by Executive or administrative action they may be rendered nugatory or valueless. The aliens who are detained under Regulation 12A are in a still more powerless condition. They have no rights at all, so far as I can see. They are entirely at the mercy of the Executive and the Home Secretary. It is true that they have two Advisory Committees, but some of us know of cases which seem to cry aloud for inquiry but never get it, and they will be still less able to get it if they are transferred to the Isle of Man. Let me cite just two cases. I will not give names, although I am prepared to do so if I am challenged. I have two cases which I assure the Committee are typical of large numbers of cases.

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    There was the case of a man who was a Czech citizen. When the Germans invaded his country he fled and went to Palestine. He lived in Palestine for two years until the outbreak of the war, and when the war broke out he made his way back slowly, with difficulty and pain and at his own expense, joined the Czech Legion in France and fought until France collapsed. He was under no obligation to do that; there was no Allied Forces Act to compel him, he was not in any armed force before, but being under no obligation at all, he chose in that way to travel half across the world to fight with the Czech battalion in France until France fell. Then he came as a refugee from France to this country. He was arrested under Regulation 12A and has been in gaol ever since, and he has no idea in the world why he was arrested or why he is still detained.
    There was another case, of a Czech who was a lawyer and a judge in his country. A journalist at one time, a lawyer throughout a great part of his career, later a judge and editor of a paper which was the principal supporter of Dr. Benes when the Czechoslovak Government were still in control, he came to this country as a refugee from France. After doing what he could to help, he found a state of affairs in the Czech Army to which he objected. He made a report to Dr. Benes, who asked him for a memorandum. He compiled his memorandum, and a very telling and impressive one it was. I do not: say his case is proved—I do not know —but obviously he made out a case for inquiry. But within two days of presenting that memorandum he was arrested under Regulation 12A and is still interned. He too has not the faintest notion what it is that is being held against him.
    1 say that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is at the mercy in these matters not merely of a secret police but of a secret foreign police. He said in this House that he fakes full responsibility himself and looks at every case himself. Yes, he looks at every case himself, but what does he look at? The only thing he looks at is what is put in front of him, but who puts it in front of him? He cannot check it, he has no reason to doubt what is put in front of him, and unless he puts it in front of the internee and gets the latter's answer, he cannot give any proper consideration to
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    the case. Or perhaps he does put something in front of the internee and gets his answer to that, and then says that for other reasons he is going to continue the detention.
    The Chairman: The hon. Member seems to think we are discussing Regulation 12A. That is not the Amendment before the Committee. He cannot discuss the administration of those Regulations; that will have to be done at another time.
    Mr. Silverman: I submit, with respect, that the points I am making are in Order. What I am saying is, that when these men are in such difficulties on the soil of this country, they ought not to be sent overseas while there is still any question pending of which the courts of this country could take cognisance. Perhaps I have already been too lengthy, but I thought that these points ought to be made, and I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to give very serious consideration to them. I do not think he would lose anything, I do not think the Executive's action, from the point of view either of administrative convenience or of military necessity, would be in the least weakened if he accepted the Amendment as it stands. If he cannot do that, he can amend it so as to deal with any too great width there may be in its present form. If he will accept the principle, I will be content with that, but the principle ought to be accepted, and there is no reason in the world why it should not be accepted.
    Mr. Stokes: I wish to support the Amendment which has been so ably moved by my hon. Friend above the Gangway, and may I start by saying that I hope the Solicitor-General, when replying, will clear our minds once and for all on the habeas corpus question? I know it is admitted that a writ of habeas corpus lies in the Isle of Man, but what is exercising the minds of a number of us is whether, in fact, the gaoler can be forced to deliver the body. I hope he will clear that out of the way, because I am sure that he would thus shorten the Debate. My experience about legal proceedings has been similar to that of my hon. Friend. It is imperative that people should not be taken far away from their own legal advisers. It is quite wrong for the Undersecretary to attempt to say, in reply, that all these people are perfectly satisfied, and

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    that there is no question of legal proceedings pending. I know of a number of cases which are likely to come on. I am all the more exercised in my mind because of the way in which the Under-Secretary treated this matter the other day. When I pressed him for an answer as to whether arrangements would be made for people who wished to institute legal proceedings and who were under detention, so that they would be near their legal advisers and able to institute proceedings, he gave what I consider to be a most frivolous reply:
    "It would not be right for me to give a pledge that anyone will be kept here indefinitely, or brought back at any moment, merely because they have initiated some trifling procedure in the courts of this country." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th March, 1941; col. 540, Vol. 370.]
    I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by a trifling procedure, but it seems to me that the liberties of the individual cannot be exceeded in importance by any other matter. As these people are, in the main, detained for preventive, and not punitive, reasons, their rights should be doubly safeguarded, and they ought to be near their advisers, and not removed to the far-distant land of the Isle of Man.
    The Solicitor-General (Sir William Jowitt): An appeal has been made to what has been called my "legal conscience." I am not sure that I know what a "legal conscience" is, apart from any other conscience. In so far as a legal conscience is to be differentiated from an ordinary conscience, I suppose that it is best served by trying to stick to the point, and not obscuring the issue. Therefore, I will explain, as simply as I can, what I conceive to be the relative points for the Committee to remember in making up its mind about this Amendment. I am not proposing, and you, Colonel Clifton Brown, would not allow me, to discuss the whole procedure under Regulation 18B. Of course, it is a procedure which to any lawyer, or to any ordinary man, is very unpleasant. On the other hand, war is a very unpleasant thing; and most of us think that this is a very necessary procedure. With that, I leave it. [Interruption.] I differ from the hon. Member in regarding it as being necessary; and, therefore, I will not spend any further time over it.
    Mr. Silverman: Will my right hon. and learned Friend allow me—
    The Solicitor-General: I would rather deal with the other points that have been raised.
    Mr. Silverman: If my right hon. and learned Friend will allow me—
    The Solicitor-General: No, I must get on. This Amendment proposes that a detention shall not be deemed to be lawful custody while any proceedings under which the validity of the original detention is challenged remain undecided. The hon. Member talked a good deal about Advisory Committees. The Advisory' Committee is not concerned with the validity of the proceedings. It assumes the validity, and considers whether, assuming that validity, the circumstances of the case are such that an order ought to be made; and it reports accordingly. The proceedings under which validity can be decided are two in number—first, habeas corpus, and, second, an action for false imprisonment.
    Mr. Silverman:Or mandamus.
    The Solicitor-General: I group together the various prerogatives, but treating them generally there are habeas corpus and false imprisonment. The difference, as the hon. Member who moved the Amendment will bear me out, is that, whereas the object of habeas corpus is to prove that detention was wrong and to get the man out, the action for false imprisonment deals with the matter at the other end. The man has been in prison and afterwards recovers damages, if the imprisonment is proved to be wrong. Hon. Members will realise that a man may issue his writ or may make an application for habeas corpus, but the point is, Does he make a good case? Without going into technicalities, the practice is that you make your application for habeas corpus. In the old days the Court used to grant either the rule absolute or the rule nisi, but to-day the invariable practice in this class of case is to appoint a day for the hearing of the argument so that both sides may be represented. If after considering the evidence and arguments the Court comes to the conclusion that the applicant is lawfully detained the application for the writ of "habeas corpus is refused. If the come to the conclu-

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    sion that he is illegally detained the writ is issued.
    The effect of this Amendment would be to confer upon anybody in the Isle of Man a much greater privilege than the same man would have in this country. In this country a man cannot discharge himself from Brixton Gaol by merely making an application for habeas corpus. The application for habeas corpus is undoubtedly a proceeding in which the validity of the detention is in issue, and under this Amendment by merely making an application he would be judge in his own case and his detention would at once become illegal. Consider the case where the man does not use habeas corpus but issues his writ for false imprisonment. Under this Amendment, on the mere issue of the writ—it might be merely a device to get out—directly it was issued, the man's detention would become illegal.
    Mr. Silverman: Only in the Isle of Man.
    The Solicitor-General: That is where he is. You would be conferring upon the people in the Isle of Man the privilege of releasing himself instead of having to be released by a Judge and the power to make his detention illegal by the simple process of issuing a writ on the one hand, or making an application for habeas corpus on the other. If you are to have this procedure at all, it obviously is nonsensical to allow a man, on the mere making of an application, to put an end to his detention. I have been asked about habeas corpus. I think the hon. Member is satisfied that there is no doubt whatever that the writ of habeas corpus does lie to the Isle 0f Man. That has been plainly decided as the result of two cases, in re John Anderson and in re James Brown. The hon. Member says, "What is there to make sure that that writ will be effective? When habeas corpus was first granted and powerful nobles in the country used to lock up people in their private dungeons, it must have been somewhat difficult to enforce the writ of habeas corpus. In only one case of which I know was there resistance, and in that the court managed to get hold of the nobleman who had imprisoned the unfortunate person and give him a dose of his own medicine, with the result that the prisoner was promptly released.
    Mr. McGovern: We might do that when the war is over.
    The Solicitor-General: The hon. Member is anti-war, as we all know: but unless he is an extreme pacifist, he must realise that beyond all law must lie force. That is why we have policemen. If a Judge issues a writ of habeas corpus, in the ultimate resort enforcement of that order will have to be by the civil authorities—by the police, who have the right to call in military, naval or air aid and even to lead an expeditionary force. But that is entirely unreal; we are a law-abiding people. Detention in the Isle of Man is detention by the military on behalf of the Home Secretary here, and, therefore, the Home Secretary is responsible. If necessary, the Home Secretary himself could be put in the Clock Tower or Brixton Gaol if he did not obey the order of the court.
    I would say to the hon. Member that it is our intention not to deprive these men by one iota of any legal privilege which they have. We shall not detract from that in any way whatever. If the hon. Member will forgive me for saying so, I thought his speech was a little illogical, in that he proceeded to show that the rights which these people have in this country to-day were so small as to be illusory. If that be so, I cannot follow his fear when he thinks that by sending these people to the Isle of Man we take away from them the right to issue a writ of habeas corpus or take any other way that is open to them to test the validity of their detention. I think the hon. Member is unduly suspicious about this Bill. Its primary object is to enable these people, who, for security reasons, must be shut up, to be deprived of their liberty under conditions more congenial to them than is compatible with the conditions allowed under ordinary internment. Secondly, it is to consult the convenience of the authorities, and do not let it be forgotten that events may happen in this country which may make it necessary for them to use and occupy all the accommodation they have in places of that sort in this country. For these reasons I can assure the hon. Member that so far as I can see there is no ground whatever for saying that their rights will be limited by the smallest extent from what they are to-day. In these circumstances I hope he will assist us to pass this Bill, which will in many cases be greatly to the advantage of these people.
    Mr. Silverman: I have never said that there ought not to be a Regulation 18B. I have always conceded that there must be some extra judicial rights in cases of this sort. The procedure laid down in the Regulations is quite right, or it may be the only possible one. What I have said is that in actual practice the rights are administratively frittered away by no proper opportunities being given. What I fear is that they can be frittered away still further if a person is taken to the Isle of Man. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that in cases where people are taken to the Isle of Man, the Home Office will undertake to allow a proper interval of time between the serving of a notice and the hearing of a case by an Advisory Committee to enable legal consultations to take place adequately and fully?
    The Solicitor-General: I am not able on the spur of the moment to give that undertaking. What I will do is this: I will add my word to what the hon. Member has said—and with which I entirely agree—that it is eminently right that there should be a reasonable interval of time so that the man may have such consultations as he wants and prepare himself to appear before the Advisory Committee. Anything I can do—I am not committing anybody except myself in saying this—I will gladly do.
    Captain W. T. Shaw: It seems to me that the Solicitor-General has overestimated the privileges and under-estimated the inconveniences which these people will have. They may have privileges, but it is no good their having them unless they are in a position to exercise them. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must be well aware that people engaged in legal proceedings in this country often find it necessary to come to London to consult with their lawyers. It will be very inconvenient for these people to be in the Isle of Man. They will have the great inconvenience and expense of coming to London to consult their lawyers, or having their lawyers go to the Isle of Man to consult them. It will also be very inconvenient for the Home Office and for Ministers on the Front Bench who have to answer questions about people who are interned. We are told that this Measure is necessary for security reasons, but in view of the number of people involved, the security reasons cannot be very over-
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    whelming. If it is a fact that the 200 people who are confined in Brixton Gaol will, in the event of an invasion, be a menace to the security of this country, then I say that, after all the months in which preparations have taken place, if the people who sit on the Front Bench say that this small number of people can become a menace, they themselves are the people who ought to be interned in the Isle of Man. It is much too good for them.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not make a Second Reading speech, but must address himself to the Amendment.
    Captain Shaw: I am trying to do so by pointing out that these people ought to be kept in this country so that they may be able to consult with their lawyers and get not only the privileges, but the conveniences, and the possibility of putting their case. I know that there are several cases pending, and that some of the people who think that they have been illegally treated have instituted proceedings against the Executive, and I firmly believe that is one of the principal reasons this Bill has been brought forward. The hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) has, I understand, started a case against a newspaper which said that he was a traitor. If he is sent to the Isle of Man, will he be in a good position to conduct that case?
    The Deputy-Chairman: When the Bill was given a Second Reading, it was decided that these people should go to the Isle of Man. The hon. and gallant Member may not dispute that.
    Captain Shaw: Was it decided that they must go there?
    The Deputy-Chairman: On the Second Reading it was laid down that they should go. That is the principle, and it cannot be disputed in Committee.
    Captain Shaw: I do not know about that, but I accept your Ruling, Colonel Clifton Brown. I am still hopeful that something may be done to ensure that they are given some measure of justice. Probably, I shall have something to say on the Third Reading of the Bill, if I cannot say it now.
    Mr. Maxton: If I had to choose between a term of imprisonment in Brixton gaol and a term of imprisonment in the Isle of Man, I should plump every time for the Isle of Man, and, mind you, I speak from experience. I do not support the case which is made against the Isle of Man because of its distance from London. I was under the impression during the Second Reading Debate that all the persons detained in Brixton were domiciled in London, but the Isle of Man is infinitely nearer to the lawyers and relations of internees in Glasgow. It is much nearer, quicker and cheaper for people in Glasgow.
    Mr. Stokes: Does the hon. Member realty suggest that it is quicker to get to the Isle of Man from Glasgow than it is from London?
    Mr. Maxton: It takes just half the time, providing you go by plane. There is a regular air service from the mainland. Under existing conditions I could travel much more speedily and much more cheaply from Glasgow to the Isle of Man, than I could travel from Glasgow to London. Mind you, I do not think there are any Glasgow men confined under Regulation 18B; I have not heard of any, and I should be shocked indeed if the Government had detained a Glasgow man under Regulation 18B. There will be some detainees from Lancashire, but' certainly it is easier to get from Lancashire to the Isle of Man than it is to travel from Lancashire to London. I could recommend any of these people to a very good solicitor in the Isle of Man, who has made himself specially informed on this particular matter. Therefore I do not think there need be any worry about that. I will give the Committee an illustration, which I consider is one of the cruellest things that can happen to these fellows. I have heard of a case of a man from a Lancashire district who was shut in without the faintest shadow or grounds of suspicion. The whole evidence against him was that he had had two holidays in Germany and had kept up a correspondence with a friend he had made there. When he came before the Advisory Committee they admitted at once that he should be liberated, and he was liberated yesterday or the day before. The fact remains that he had been detained for nine months before his case was heard.
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    I think that that is terrible, and does not show implicit justice in a judicial system. It is accepted by all authorities that the law should be definite, impartial and speedy. None of us can defend the position of a man being kept waiting for nine or ten months for a trial, which cannot be termed in its fullest sense judicial. There is no difficulty about lawyers in the Isle of Man, or any special difficulty for the personal friends of internees. I know some members of the Advisory Committee. I know the Chairman. He is a busy man, and I know Dr. Mallon, who is a member of the Advisory Committee and who is another very busy man. How often are these men going to be able to go to the Isle of Man as compared with going up to the central place where they carry on this work in London, and how long is it to be before those who are still left interned and unheard, if they arc transferred to the Isle of Man, are to be able to have their cases heard? I do not know whether the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) had the Advisory Committee in contemplation or whether he was thinking of the ordinary judicial forms.
    Mr. Silverman: I was thinking of this: If there is any failure by the Advisory Committee dealing with a case reasonably put to it, the internee may complain of the Advisory Committee.
    Mr. Maxton: A man should not De shifted to the Isle of Man until he has had his hearing by the Advisory Committee. He should at least be protected to that extent. If the Government can arrange a machinery by which the Advisory Committee will go to the Isle of Man and sit full time and get ahead with the cases with real speed, that is the procedure that I should favour. If we cannot have that—and I see the difficulties of it—Ithink no man should be removed from his present place of internment until such time as his case has been heard by the Advisory Committee.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): Perhaps 1 can reassure the hon. Member on the last point that he raised. Generally speaking, with very few exceptions all the men who have been recently detained or whose cases offer special difficulty—all persons detained under Regulation 18B—have now been before the Advisory Committee.

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    It will not obviously be our policy to transfer men to the Isle of Man before they have had a hearing by the Advisory Committee, unless we decide to transfer the Advisory Committee itself from its present headquarters to the Isle of Man. As regards legal proceedings, what the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) was really concerned about was that these persons should have as full an opportunity of conducting any legal proceedings from the Isle of Man as they would have had here. It is clearly impossible for us to pledge ourselves that we will not transfer or bring back to this country any man at any time who initiates legal proceedings, but the Home Secretary will act most reasonably in the matter. If a man's presence is required by any court in this country, it is clearly in my right hon. Friend's interest, and in the interest of his reputation for fair play, to see that the man has every opportunity not only for a hearing but for preparing his case, and that will in every case be given.
    Mr. Silverman: Who is to be the judge of the reasonableness of the request to be brought back? Some of us have had experience of the Home Office itself electing to be the judge, whether the presence is required or not. Will the hon. Gentleman go a little further and say that he will accept the word of the man's legal adviser that his presence is desirable and then, in a suitable case, bring him back?
    The Deputy-Chairman: It seems to me that the discussion has wandered now on to the second Amendment, that in the name of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) —in page 1, line 14, at the end, to add:
    "Any person whom the Secretary may decide to remove to the Isle of Man shall have a right of appeal to the Advisory Committee against that decision and shall not be so removed until that appeal has been heard."
    Had we not better discuss them both together?
    Mr. Peake: In response to the question of the hon. Member, I think that obviously in the first instance it must be for the Home Secretary to decide at what stage of any legal proceedings it is desirable for a man to be brought back to this country. It is clear that if any court of justice were to express the view that a man's presence here was necessary or that his case was
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    in any way prejudiced at any stage of the proceedings by his absence from this country, my right hon. Friend would immediately see that he was brought back.
    Mr. Silverman: You cannot at an early stage or at any stage of a case 20 to the court and say, "Will your Lordship please express an opinion that you think it advisable that the man should be brought here?" There is no machinery for that, and if you wait until the case comes on for trial, you have waited too long.
    Mr. Peake: I appreciate' that difficulty, and that is why I said that the Home Secretary would act reasonably in these cases. Proceedings in the High Court, in an action, say, for false imprisonment, may well drag on for a year or 18 months, and it would be, in our view, unreasonable to bring a man back immediately proceedings were instituted and have to keep him in Brixton gaol for such a long period.
    Mr. Stokes: I wish to speak particularly to the Amendment which stands in my name.
    Sir Irving Albery: May I raise a point of Order? I have no desire to prevent my hon. Friend moving his Amendment, but I should like to be assured that it is in Order. It seems to me that the Advisory Committee have no power to hear appeals of this kind or to give any decision. The committee is purely advisory.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I do not think that that is a point of substance, because the hon. Member is not rising to move the Amendment. The discussion is ranging over the whole subject.
    Mr. Stokes: I would like to make an observation about the legal position of the Isle of Man, which apparently has been loosely swept aside by the Government Law Officers as being a thing of no particular importance. I would like to quote as an example something which may not be familiar to hon. Members, that the Isle of Man had to declare war on Germany separately in 1914. In point of fact, she did not do it this time because, although she declared war in 1914, she forgot to make peace, so that she is still at war with Germany. It is wrong to assume that

    1285
    because the Isle of Man is close to the coast of Britain the standing of the subject is the same in that territory. My concern is with the rights of the detained persons, and I am seeking an elucidation of Clause 18B, sub-paragraph (3) of the Regulations, which says:
    "Any person aggrieved by the making of an order against him, by a refusal of the Secretary of State to suspend the operation of such an order, by any condition attached to a direction given by the Secretary of State or by the revocation of any such direction, under the powers conferred by this Regulation, may make his objections to such a committee."
    I submit that therein the detained persons have a right to appeal against removal to the Isle of Man. Surely that is a substantial change in a condition of detention, and I submit that in any case, if that is not so, it is all the more important that my Amendment should be accepted in form and substance. We have heard that detained persons are at liberty to have legal representation. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) has claimed that it is just as easy to get from the Isle of Man to London as it is to set from Glasgow to London. I am not going to argue with him on the point because he has probably done both journevs and is sure of his facts, but it is not true that it is probably easier for this procedure to be followed. We are not seeking to say that everybody must be detained in this country. We say that they should have the right of appeal. The advantage of going to the Isle of Man is very great, in a large number of cases, but a minority of people would prefer to stay here. I emphasise that fact as the conditions under which they are detained are not meant to be punitive. I can argue on another occasion that they are punitive. To cart people away from their friends and relations, meeting with whom is one of the few joys they can get when they are detained, and to put them out of the reach of convenient and speedy visits, is a punitive thing to do. I am not arguing that everybody wants to stay in Brixton Gaol or wherever it may be. The vast majority of these people would probably prefer to be in the Isle of Man, but as the conditions of detention are not meant to be punitive, they should be given the option to stay in this country should they so wish.
    The Solicitor-General: I agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken that
    1286
    the less these conditions are made punitive, the better they will be, and that is one reason why I am so strongly in favour of putting these people on the Isle of Man. It gives a very much better chance of making the conditions less punitive. The hon. Member who has just spoken asked a question about Regulation 18B and about the words:
    "the condition attached to a direction."
    I think that the only reason he asked the question was because he read paragraph(3) without reading paragraph (2). If he reads the Regulation as a whole I think he will see what the scheme of the Regulation is. First of all you get, in 18B (1) the absolute power to detain and then you go on to 18B (2) which says:
    "The Home Secretary may direct that the operation of this Order be suspended subject to certain specified conditions."
    It is obvious that the direction which is referred to in paragraph (3) is one of those specified directions in paragraph (2).
    Mr. Stokes: It was not the last part of the paragraph to which I was referring, but to the words:
    "Any condition attached to a direction."
    The Solicitor-General: Yes, but the hon. Member is reading from paragraph (3). If he has the Order before him, he will see that paragraph (2) sets out what the Secretary of State may direct, which is that the operation of the Order may be suspended, subject to certain specified conditions. For instance, there is a condition about the possession of a camera. If a person is aggrieved by it or by any condition attached to a direction, it is provided under paragraph (3) that he may go before the Advisory Committee. If the hon. Member reads the Regulation as a whole it will be plain that the conditions attached to a direction referred to in paragraph (3)are the conditions in paragraph (2). It must be so. Suppose a man is interned in York and is moved to Doncaster: Does anybody suggest that that will be a reason for appealing to the Advisory Committee?
    Mr. Stokes: Surely it is not representing me fairly to put the matter in that way. I have not the legal experience of the Solicitor-General, but surely, at the time these people were detained, there was no question of sending them to the Isle of Man, because it was against the

    1287
    law. It is the whole object of this legislation to make sending them to the Isle of Man legal. Therefore, it could never have been contemplated at the time that they should be sent out of the country; and thus, I suggest, an entirely new condition is introduced, attached to the direction, that it was never contemplated and that it is a condition against which they have a right to appeal. That is all I am contending in the Amendment. Perhaps I might add that the Parliamentary Secretary assured me, when the people were moved from York to Huyton, that they were not going to be taken out of the country. I passed that information on to the people concerned, and they understood that it included going overseas to the Isle of Man.
    The Solicitor-General: I am sorry if I have not made my meaning plain. I was discussing the mere legal question as to the meaning of the phrase, "condition attached to a direction," in paragraph (3). If the Regulation is read as a whole I do not think the hon. Member or anybody else could have any doubt that the conditions there referred to are those specified in the preceding paragraph. I agree, as to the necessity for the Bill, that it is at least doubtful whether, without the Bill, detention in the Isle of Man would be illegal.
    Mr. Silverman: Is the explanation of the learned Solicitor-General quite as conclusive as all that? Suppose one conceded that the condition attached to a direction was one referred to in paragraph (2). I do not think that concession would disturb completely the point made by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). At the moment, in the case of every per son concerned, on the occasion when the Order was made —
    The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid the discussion is becoming out of Order. We are going on to discuss the interpretation of some other Regulation which does not come under the Amendment.
    Mr. Silverman: If the interpretation which I am going to suggest is right, it may obviate any further discussion of the Amendment. The question I want to ask is whether the Amendment is not already in the Regulation? In every one of these cases there is an Order directing that the
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    person be detained. If the Bill becomes law, and the Home Secretary wishes to transfer any person to the Isle of Man, he must make a new Order, or alter the terms of the existing Order. Paragraph I of 18B provides that, if the Secretary of State has reason, he may make an Order against a person directing that he be detained. He has done so. Under the Bill, he will some day make another Order against that person directing that he be transferred to the Isle of Man. When he makes the new Order surely it will come within paragraph (3), and the internee may then make his objections to the Advisory Committee. Why would an alteration of the existing Order by which he is detained in Brixton, securing that he shall be removed to the Isle of Man and in future be detained there, not be an Order of the Home Secretary upon which the internee may make his representation to an Advisory Committee?
    The Solicitor-General: The Order for internment is one thing, and the Regulation provides that the person to be interned shall be detained in such place as is authorised. Each time the Home Secretary chooses to alter the place of a man's detention that is not a new Order for detention; it merely affects the place of detention. I should venture to think that that point is quite plain.
    Amendment negatived.
    Sir I. Albery: I beg to move, in page I, line 14, at the end, to add:
    "Provided that no such removal shall take place under such conditions as would in any way impair the power of the House of Commons or of the Committee of Privileges of that House to order and enforce the attendance of any Member of Parliament who may be detained under any regulation made by a Secretary of State."
    I move this Amendment on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus). I believe that it would be possible for the Under-Secretary or the right hon. and learned Gentleman to assure us that there is no ground for a provision of this kind. Under those circumstances, I do not want to be too long. The main reason why I am so anxious to obtain this assurance is that I am one of those persons, who seem to be only too few in this House of Commons, who are at present seriously concerned about what I regard as the lessening of the Privileges of the Members of this House. It may not

    1289
    be the general view, but I regard it as already having taken place to some extent, and I am therefore the more anxious that there shall be no chance of a further lessening of those Privileges.
    Earl Winterton: I desire strongly to support the point made by my hon. Friend. I did raise the point during Debate on a previous occasion. It will be within the recollection of the Committee that in past unhappy days a large number of Members representing Irish constituencies were arrested, but the difference is that in those days this House had complete control over the Irish police, among other things. That is to say, the Secretary of State for Ireland was responsible to this House for any action taken, and there-fore it is not on all fours with internment in the Isle of Man. I believe that I have a long record in relation to matters affecting the procedure and rights of Members of this House, and I contend that without some such provision as this there is a real risk that any hon. Member might be arrested and put in the Isle of Man, and the House would not have the power, which has always been enjoyed, of requiring his attendance here. It will be recollected that there has been some doubt as to the legal position. A question was asked about it, and I believe that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said that the Attorney-General was not able to answer the question. Therefore, I hope that the Solicitor-General will either accept this Amendment or will make it abundantly clear that there is a historic right of this House to require a Member who has the misfortune to suffer imprisonment to attend this House. I hope it will not be thought improper to raise this matter.
    Mr. Peake: The Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) raised this point in the course of the Second Reading Debate, and I said that at that stage I could not answer for the powers of the Committee of Privileges, but I can now give my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment the assurance that he desires. The position appears to be this: First of all, it is the practice of this House, when establishing a Committee of Privileges at the beginning of every Session, to order that the Committee have power to send for a person's papers and records. It is therefore clear that the Committee has power to summon witnesses before it.
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    The position, where a witness whose presence is desired by a Committee of this House is in custody, I understand, is this: this was the practice followed when it was desired to obtain the presence of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) before the Committee of Privileges last summer. If hon. Members refer to the proceedings of the Committee of Privileges in that case, they will see that it was ordered in the committee that the Chairman do move the House, that the Governor of His Majesty's prison at Brixton be "ordered to bring Captain Ramsay in custody to the committee. As a result of that, the chairman of the Select Committee moved accordingly in the House, and the Speaker's warrant was then issued, directing the production of the person whose presence was desired. It is perfectly clear that anyone transferred under this Bill to the Isle of Man remains in the custody of the Home Secretary, and it would be the simplest possible matter— and in fact it would be the proper procedure—for the Speaker's warrant in that case to be directed to the Home Secretary, whereupon it would become the duty of the Home Secretary to produce the witness, or the person whose presence was required by the Committee of this House.
    Mr. Stokes: Whether he was a Member of Parliament or not?
    Mr. Peake: The Amendment, and the procedure which I have been describing, apply only to Members of Parliament.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask my hon. Friend a question which the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) asked me to put to him categorically? Can he give an assurance that what he has just said about the rights of this House, or of a Committee of this House, to demand the presence of a person from the Isle of Man, would apply equally to an ordinary member of the public as well as to a Member of Parliament?
    Mr. Peake: I do not think there is any doubt about that question. If the presence of a person transferred to the Isle of Man under this Bill were required in this country, either by a court of law or by this House, the subpoena in the case of ordinary legal proceedings, or the Speaker's warrant in the case of a summons to attend a Committee of this

    1291
    House, would be properly served upon my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
    Sir I. Albery: In view of the explanation given by my hon. Friend the Undersecretary, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 2, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir Dennis Herbert in the Chair.]
  Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.

    CLAUSE 3.— (Amendment of s. 108A of Army Act and s. 108A of Air Force Act)
    Mr. Bellenger: I beg to move, in page 3, line 17, at the end, to add:
    "and as if at the end of paragraph (c) of the said Sub-section (which relates to accommodation and prices for billeting) there were added the following proviso:—
    Provided that in no case shall the price prescribed for tea be less than sixpence or the price prescribed for supper be less than sevenpence."
    The Committee may remember that on the introduction of the Estimates I raised the general question of the reform of billeting prices in general. I understand that if any reform is to be made, it can now be done by Army Council Regulations. I do not want to press the matter at this moment, but I want to give the Department an opportunity of deciding this; and then, if I get no satisfaction, I always have the right to raise it later, on a suitable occasion. I, therefore, beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 4.— (Amendment of Section 47 of Army Act.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir William Allen: I should like some explanation of the Clause, particularly as it is referred to in the Memorandum to the Bill. The Memorandum speaks of an Amendment which enables a Rule of Procedure to be made "prescribing a class of officer," etc. But Clause 4 deals with an Amendment of the Army Act. There is no mention whatever in it of a Rule of Procedure. As we know, there are King's Regulations, the Army Act itself, and Rules of Procedure. I should like to know that there is to be a Rule of Procedure with regard to this Amendment of the Army Act. Perhaps my hon. Friend will tell me whether, when a Rule of Procedure is to be made, it is a statutory business. As we know, the Rules of Procedure are laid down for the guidance of the Forces, and for the protection of members of the Forces. I presume that Clause 4 has something to do with both: but I should like to know whether a Rule of Procedure, if made, will have any statutory effect, or whether it can be made at the wish of the Army Council or of the Judge-Advocate-General or whoever may be in authority. It is a matter of some importance.
    The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Richard Law): This Clause is quite simple, and is not, in itself, of tremendous importance. The Army Act gives the Army Council power to appoint a specific officer, who is not under the Judge-Advocate-General, to deal summarily with charges against officers and warrant officers. The difficulty arises when a new Divisional or Corps or Army Commander comes along. It is obvious that the whole Amendment is to allow the Army Council to say, in such a case, that the Commander of a division or corps would have this right without being specified by name. It will save a good deal of paper work in the Army, and I do not think that there is any ground for objection.
    Sir W. Allen: I take it that it is purely an Amendment of the Army Act, which is that to which Clause 4 refers?
    Mr. Law: Yes, it is an Amendment of the Army Act which enables the procedure to be altered.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Remaining Clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Preamble agreed to.
    Bill reported, without Amendment.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    Mr. Maxton: I want to have the opportunity of saying a few words upon a Measure which defines the discipline and control of the Army and Air Force for the present year, in order to put in a plea on behalf of the rank-and-file soldier to see whether every thing is being done to make the life of the men who are in monotonous and dreary stations a little less monotonous. I have had cases brought to my notice with which I have not troubled the War Office. I will give the type of thing that I have in mind. One of our Home De fence battalions is doing duty at an ex plosives works somewhere in Scotland, and the men have to be inside the com pound all the time. They are deprived of the privilege of smoking. There is not an Army canteen. They have not a game or a wireless set. Perhaps it may be said that there is only a company of them and it is not worth while doing anything on a big scale, but surely it would be easy to do something for these men. I under stand that it is the practice in the Army to make a regular deduction from pay as a sort of subscription to a fund to provide amenities. The deductions take place, but the amenities do not seem to arrive. Surely a wireless set, or a pack of cards, or a billiard table or a table tennis set could be provided. Some provision ought to be made to enable a man to "have a pint"—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker(Sir Dennis Herbert): The hon. Member may know the Army Act better than I do, but I cannot find that in it. We are speaking on the Third Reading of this Bill.
    Mr. Maxton: I will try to keep-within your Ruling, Sir, and I will not pursue that point. If I want special attention, I will write to the Minister in the ordinary way, although I am quite satisfied from the example that I have given that this is
    1294
    no uncommon thing. Moreover, I understand that the position of the men at the searchlight stations is infinitely worse. Only 10 or 12 men are at each post, and there are no permanent buildings. I think the House has a responsibility to see that what can be done to maintain the discipline, morale and spirit of the men who are serving in the Army should be done.
    Mr. Law: I would like to assure my hon. Friend that we are as conscious as he is of the importance of maintaining the morale and spirit of the troops, especially in the outlying posts to which he has just referred. I think perhaps he did a little less than justice to what is in fact being done. If he refers to a number of speeches which have been made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, both on the Estimates and on other occasions, I think he will see that a great deal has been done in the way of welfare.
    Mr. Maxton: I would not attempt to deny that. I know a lot of things have been done, but other things have been left undone.
    Mr. Law: I think it probably is the case that a number of things have been missed, and if any cases of this kind are brought to our notice by hon. Members, we shall be very grateful to hear of them. I would like, too, to correct one slight misapprehension under which my hon. Friend was labouring when he spoke of compulsory deductions from the troops' pay That is not so at all; it is a voluntary deduction. However, we are deeply conscious of the importance of the matters which the hon. Member has raised, and I think he may be confident that it is always in our minds to see that welfare work is carried on.
    Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
    Bill read the Third time, and passed.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    It being the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.

  VACCINATION (EXEMPTIONS).
  VACCINATION (EXEMPTIONS).
  RATES (OLD AGE PENSIONERS).
  RATES (OLD AGE PENSIONERS).
  SCABIES.
  SCABIES.
  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (COTTON INDUSTRY).
  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (COTTON INDUSTRY).
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.
  RADIO SETS (VALVES).
  RADIO SETS (VALVES).
CIVIL DEFENCE.
  CONDITIONS OF SERVICE (SICK PAY).
  CONDITIONS OF SERVICE (SICK PAY).
  ANIMALS (PROTECTION).
  ANIMALS (PROTECTION).
  DETENTION (REGULATIONS).
  DETENTION (REGULATIONS).
  BARRISTERS (SHORTAGE).
  BARRISTERS (SHORTAGE).
  MILITARY SERVICE (THEATRICAL INDUSTRY).
  MILITARY SERVICE (THEATRICAL INDUSTRY).
NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES' STAFFS.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES' STAFFS.
  STEEL WORKS (CANTEENS).
  STEEL WORKS (CANTEENS).
  COTTON INDUSTRY (CONCENTRATION).
  COTTON INDUSTRY (CONCENTRATION).
  SUNDAY WORK.
  SUNDAY WORK.
  BRICKLAYERS.
  BRICKLAYERS.
  NORTHERN IRELAND.
  NORTHERN IRELAND.
  PETROLEUM INSPECTOR, NORTHWESTERN DIVISION.
  PETROLEUM INSPECTOR, NORTHWESTERN DIVISION.
BRITISH ARMY.
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCE.
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCE.
  HOME GUARD.
  HOME GUARD.
  GUN SITES, LONDON AREA (COST).
  GUN SITES, LONDON AREA (COST).
TRANSPORT.
  EXPRESS OMNIBUS SERVICES, LONDON.
  EXPRESS OMNIBUS SERVICES, LONDON.
  ROAD ACCIDENTS
  ROAD ACCIDENTS
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  FLOUR.
  FLOUR.
  CHEESE RATION.
  CHEESE RATION.
  SARDINES.
  SARDINES.
  SUBSIDIES.
  SUBSIDIES.
  TINNED FOODS (PRICES).
  TINNED FOODS (PRICES).
  AIR TRAINING CORPS.
  AIR TRAINING CORPS.
  EXCESS PROFITS TAX.
  EXCESS PROFITS TAX.
  VICTORY AND COMMEMORATIVE STAMPS.
  VICTORY AND COMMEMORATIVE STAMPS.
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES (DELAYS).
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES (DELAYS).
  CENTRAL MEDICAL WAR COMMITTEE.
  CENTRAL MEDICAL WAR COMMITTEE.
  ALIENS.
  ALIENS.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
  WAR OFFICE (TEMPORARY ASSISTANT LAND AGENTS).
  WAR OFFICE (TEMPORARY ASSISTANT LAND AGENTS).
  OIL-CAKE WORKS (EXPLOSIONS).
  OIL-CAKE WORKS (EXPLOSIONS).
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
Message from the Commons for leave for the Lord Perry to attend to be examined as a witness before the Co-ordinating Sub-Committee of the Select Committee appointed by that House on National Expenditure. Leave given to his Lordship to attend, if ho think fit; and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Paper in his name.
Moved, That in the event of the National Service Bill being received from the Commons, Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of taking the First and Second Readings of the Bill.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

LIABILITIES (WAR-TIME ADJUSTMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

NATIONAL SERVICE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been dispensed with:
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill may be reduced to two

1005
main principles. First, it makes possible compulsory recruitment for the Civil Defence Services on the same basis as for the Armed Forces of the Crown, or, to put it in another way, it enables men who are already liable for compulsory military service to be allocated to Civil Defence Service. Secondly, it effects certain amendments in the National Service (Armed Forces) Act which experience has shown to be both necessary and advisable. The original conception of civil defence was that of a citizen force—local, part-time, unpaid volunteers—who, being trained and collected by the local authority, would stand by and assist their fellow countrymen in time of need. That original conception remains still unimpaired. The nation as a whole, I submit, has a right to be proud of the quantity and the quality of those who have already volunteered for local service. It would appear that the occasion and the need both discovered and released vast resources of capacity and moral energy which were placed at the disposal of the nation, and many of those who have so volunteered have shown unexpected competence and a quite remarkable loyalty to the work in hand. I think specially of the London Auxiliary Fire Service. Your Lordships may believe me when I say, from personal knowledge, that the London Fire Brigade Service has the admiration of all London citizens. It is an immense encouragement to feel that these Auxiliary Fire Service volunteers have won not only the trust but the admiration of the permanent and experienced Fire Brigade staff in that great and highly honoured service.
But the increased call for men for the Armed Forces and for the vital war industrial services results in the need for men becoming greater. In some areas the men available are sufficient and entirely satisfactory, but in some other areas the nucleus of whole-time volunteers has shrunk below the number required. In vulnerable areas, or in areas thought to be specially vulnerable, it became necessary to establish a nucleus of whole-time personnel to be supplemented by part-time volunteers. In other less vulnerable areas we continue to rely upon part-time volunteers, and it is noteworthy that some 90 per cent. of the whole of the volunteer forces are serving in this way. It is not intended to depart in any way from the original
1006
fundamental conception of a volunteer part-time Civil Defence Service, but in some areas it is necessary to bring up the strength without delay to the standard required. That can only be done quickly, it is submitted, on a compulsory basis, and this Bill, for the first time, places the Civil Defence Services on the same footing as the other Defence Services.
I need not go into detail in commending this Bill to your Lordships' attention, but you may take my word for it that His Majesty's Government feel that the need does exist and that every effort has been made to meet that need in certain areas on a volunteer basis. Therefore, this Bill brings with it an element of compulsion. First of all, it makes liable to Civil Defence Service all those who are liable for service in the Armed Forces under the National Service Act of 1939; and secondly, the Bill seeks to impose similar liability upon those who have been registered under the Act as conscientious objectors on condition that they take up work under civilian control. It is not required that conscientious objectors should serve in the police, as that might involve the bearing of arms. Moreover, the conscientious objector who is registered unconditionally is not to be liable under this Bill to be called up. The Bill does not affect women.
In regard to the matter of age, it is intended to arrange that men ordinarily selected shall not be under thirty years of age and, where possible, not under thirty-five years of age. As far as possible, men so called up will be placed in their home towns. The same machinery for calling up will be used as for the Armed Forces, and if any man expresses any preference for any particular Service that will be considered sympathetically, so far as that is possible. It will be possible for application for postponement on grounds of hardship to be sympathetically considered. In regard to the terms of service, those who are already working in the Civil Defence Services, and are already enrolled, will remain as they are at present under the local authority, but those called up specially under this Bill will be deemed to have been taken into the service of the Crown, though they will usually be posted to a local authority. In regard to the existing whole-time volunteers, there will be an opportunity, should they desire to exercise it, to be called up under

1007
the Bill and so to take service under the Crown itself. Arrangements will be made so that those who join the Civil Defence Services shall not receive less favourable treatment than they would have received had they joined the Armed Forces.
Other provisions in the Bill take the form of amendments to the main Act, and some of them relate to the difficulty of conscientious objectors. This Bill attempts to deal with that difficult and distressing problem both with understanding and, I believe, with consideration. Owing to the wise provisions which Parliament made two years ago, the controversy on this matter has not had the bitterness attached to it which some of us remember a generation ago. There is between the Government and the conscientious objector a kind of mutual understanding, if not agreement. The conscientious objector recognises, as we all recognise, that the Government have a vast and urgent responsibility placed upon them, no less a responsibility than for the freedom, now and in the future, of ourselves and, it may be, of the civilised world. What the Government do or fail to do now may decide whether our children shall be free in body and in conscience, or whether they shall be bodily and spiritually slaves. On the other hand, the Government recognise the difficult position in which the conscientious objector finds himself.
The fundamental problem here is that of the freedom of the individual. Freedom is a very precious thing when it is worthily used and to preserve it may at times mean not only service but also sacrifice. This Bill does not ask the conscientious objector to defile his conscience by undertaking military service; it asks him to share with his fellows the task of carrying on the civil life upon which his own liberty and the liberty of us all depends. It is very difficult to criticise the man who feels that before all other things he must place the decision of his own conscience. There are, I hope and believe, those amongst us who would prefer to die rather than to do certain things; and to that extent we can at least understand the spirit of the conscientious objector. I hope—speaking, if I can, as a private individual—that the time will never come
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when my nation will lack citizens who place their conception of right and of duty above ail other considerations—above derision, above penalties and above discomfort. I cannot help feeling that it is a good thing and helpful to all of us that there should be in our midst a moral witness against the fundamental evil of war. But, if a man must revere the decisions of his own conscience, he must also beware lest he elevate one conception of duty in a limited sphere to the neglect of other moral obligations to the community and to Right itself.
Conscience, my Lords, is only the pulse of reason; and I think experience teaches us that we ought to distrust it when it beats feverishly. Thomas Hobbes, in the Leviathan, tells us that a man's conscience and his judgment are the same thing and that just as judgment may be erroneous so also may be conscience. We all of us live in and by the community; we cannot cut ourselves apart from it, except to our own hurt and disadvantage. We are all members one of another, and our spiritual strength, such as it is, is not self-created but derived from the very heart of the national temper, tradition and experience. The whole of a man's obligations, therefore, are perhaps greater than any particular part of them. I am not trying to explain away or to underestimate the power of the conviction that the conscientious objector has, or the loyalty that he owes to his conscience. If a man loses his conscience, he has nothing else that is worth keeping. But I feel that this Bill, in asking conscientious objectors to participate not in military work, or even in the police service, which might mean some measure of compulsion, but in civic things, is bringing a new note into this problem of the difficulty of the conscientious objector; and I hope that your Lordships will approve the provisions which the Bill makes.
There are certain amendments to the main Act which are proposed in this Bill. It is proposed in Clause 4 that the conditions relating to the refusal of medical examination shall be reviewed. At the present time a man may refuse to be medically examined, and the penalty for such refusal is a fine of £5. That is rather a cheap way of getting round a very difficult problem; and it is proposed to modify the existing practice by the introduction of a larger fine and a period of imprison-

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ment. The text of the Bill which is before your Lordships mentions certain figures regarding the fine and the term of imprisonment, but the latest reprint of the Bill from another place reduces the fine and imprisonment by, I think, half.
Clause 5 deals with the conscientious objector who fails to comply with the conditions on which he is registered. Such failure in the first place may be just wilful, or, secondly, may be due to causes beyond the man's own control. The Minister in such cases may refer the matter to a local tribunal. Then, if the local tribunal agrees with him the man may be registered unconditionally, or the existing condition may be confirmed. In the case of wilful failure to comply, no prosecution can take place except by or with the consent of the Minister of Labour and National Service. Then again, men marked out by the tribunals for non-combatant service in the Armed Forces come under the consideration of this Bill. Hitherto such men have been removed from the Conscientious Objectors' Register, and this is resented by many of them. A man likes to feel, "Though I have subordinated my own feelings to the necessities of the State, I still wish it to be registered that I have this conscientious objection to war"; and the Bill makes this registration possible.
I need mention only one or two items in the remaining clauses. Clause 9 clears up a certain uncertainty which existed in regard to persons not ordinarily resident in Great Britain; Clause 10 clears up some obscurities regarding the reinstatement provisions; Clause II makes provision for the simplification of procedure on prosecutions; and Clause 14 makes it possible to amend the present Bill by Defence Regulations, should such amendment prove to be necessary. I have gone quite quickly through the principle and the provisions of this Bill. It deals with a complex and difficult but an urgent matter. It is, I believe, a Bill which merits your Lordships' approval, and I invite you to give it a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Snell.)
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I have listened to the description of the Bill by the noble Lord, expressed as usual in his admirable and clear way and almost eloquent language. I rise not to oppose
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the Bill, because no one who reads it can feel anything but sympathy with its principle and belief in its terms, but it does seem to me, after the time that the noble Lord devoted to the clauses of the Bill which deal with conscientious objectors, that people in the country will regard the Bill as one to make it easier for conscientious objectors to avoid national service in the future. Only a week or so ago there was a debate in your Lordships' House on this question of conscientious objectors, which the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, raised on a particular point, and it was a debate of very great interest. I had insufficient knowledge of the details of the case to which he was particularly referring, otherwise I should have felt inclined to take part. But I do feel when we are discussing, as the noble Lord did just now, the freedom of the subject, that "freedom of the subject" as expressed at the present time in a war most vital to our nation, and indeed to the world, is a term of considerable elasticity. And when the noble Lord speaks of the moral effect of making these very easy provisions for the conscientious objector in this Bill, I view with some perturbation what will happen when peace comes, and we have to maintain the peace of the world, if there is going to grow up in this country, as suggested by the noble Lord, a class of individual who will never believe it is worth while fighting for his country.
I have risen to say these few words in order to some extent, I hope, to take the gilt off the gingerbread in so far as conscientious objectors are concerned. I do know that the conscientious objectors in this country to-day are having a very fair deal. I have talked to those who are performing the very difficult and delicate task of acting on the tribunals dealing with conscientious objectors, and I know that in the opinion of the Appeal Tribunal in Scotland the conscientious objectors have never been dealt with so fairly or so easily as they are at the present time. I hope that when this Bill is placed on the Statute Book, as I hope it will be as soon as possible, it will not be understood, because of certain provisions in it regarding conscientious objectors, that it is intended as a Bill to make things easier for conscientious objectors than they already are; and I hope that His Majesty's Government will take perhaps a rather more

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severe view on this subject than that expressed by the noble Lord this afternoon, because unless they do, I fear not only for the future but also for the present.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, those of your Lordships who heard me speak when the original Bill introducing conscription was before your Lordships, will perhaps have expected me to say a word of protest against this Bill also. I do not speak in any way for my Party, for just as in the country as a whole conscientious objection is recognised and tolerated—and may I say in passing how deeply I appreciate the sympathetic manner in which the Deputy Leader of the House spoke of conscientious objectors?—so in the Labour Party those of us who hold pacifist views are permitted to remain in the Party though not in agreement with the Party's policy on these points. It is my own view that in introducng conscription into this country at all Parliament has exceeded its moral powers. I do not believe that the Executive or Parliament itself has that right over men which, in my view, turns them into slaves. Having said this, it is not my intention to labour a point which I am sure I am not wrong in supposing will receive very little sympathy in your Lordships' House. I should like to add one or two words about the contents of this Bill itself. I would say at once that, in my view, speaking as a pacifist, there is nothing in the duties to be enforced under this Bill which would be contrary—
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask the noble Lord what is a pacifist? Is a pacifist the same as a conscientious objector?
LORD FARINGDON: The House does not require me to give an extensive definition. A pacifist is, if you like, a conscientious objector—you may make the two terms interchangeable. In my view, as I was saying, the duties to be enforced under this Bill are not duties to which, at any rate, my own conscience would take any exception whatever. They are duties which, in my view, are more in the nature of acts of good neighbourliness than acts of military service. I gather that that is, in fact, the view of His Majesty's Government. But the
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Government in my opinion are taking too narrow a view of conscience. Conscientious objection to military service alone is not the true extent of conscientious objection. As I say, I do not myself wholly understand the position of those who would feel that the duties under this Bill would be impossible for them to undertake, but that there are a certain number of such persons is undoubted. I believe that their views are held in perfect sincerity, and I regret that this Bill does not seem to take sufficient account of that attitude.
In my view—and it is a view which is supported by the experience of those who have had considerable dealing with cases of this kind—had this Bill been on the Statute Book earlier, the amount of conscientious objection would have been a minute fraction of what, in fact, it has been. It has been suggested to me that had conscripts been given this choice from the beginning of the war, 80 per cent. of the conscientious objectors would have been willing to accept this service and would have done it. May I therefore suggest to His Majesty's Government that in difficult, troublesome cases, such as I raised in your Lordships' House a couple of weeks ago, where conscientious objectors have not had their views upheld before tribunals, and have been forced into the Armed Forces, it might be possible now to give these men the opportunity of doing willingly, and as I believe more usefully, the duties which this Bill is designed to cover? I suggest to His Majesty's Government that in the case of these people whose consciences have caused them a great deal of trouble, and who are at present in positions which they find spiritually painful and uncomfortable, they should be given the opportunity of rendering, willingly, freely, and wholeheartedly, the service which they would like to give to their country.
There is one other point in this Bill, and it is the question of the sanctions imposed on those who do not submit to medical examinations and other formalities under the Bill. I suggest that these provisions open the way to just that process which, during the last war, came to be called the "cat-and-mouse" proceeding, which everybody who has considered this matter has decided to be most objectionable. I believe that this would be met if a safeguard of the kind provided in the original

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Conscription Act, under Section 13, could be introduced into this Bill. I have said that, for the vast majority of conscientious objectors, this Bill does provide opportunity for alternative and useful service, but for the small number who do not find it possible to accept this service I would plead that some recognition of their position should be made. I repeat that in opposing this Bill—and I oppose it because it contains in my view the immoral principle of conscription—I am speaking for myself and not for my Party; but I believe that if it were possible for His Majesty's Government to accept the suggestions I have made, both as to the "cat-and-mouse" business and as to the possibility of transferring to the Civil Defence Services men who find their position spiritually uncomfortable and disagreeable in the Armed Forces, they would, so far from hindering, actually help the country in its present situation.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, may I ask the Deputy Leader of the House if he has anything to say in respect of future business?
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I am sorry I have very little information on the point. The remaining stages of this Bill which we have just read a second time will, I presume, be taken. We shall have the Committee stage on the next sitting day, and Lord Teviot has a Question on the Paper for that day also.
LORD ADDISON: There is another matter in my mind which is common knowledge to us all, and that concerns the suggested statement on the war and Motion. It would be convenient if, as soon as may be, we knew when that statement was likely to be made.
LORD SNELL: The information will be circulated in the usual way, but I anticipate it will take place on the second sitting day.
House adjourned.