Sitting of 18 September 1940

Preamble
Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  FIFE COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMA TION BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Fife County Council," presented by Mr. Ernest Brown; read the First time; and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Thursday, 26th September; and to be printed. [Bill 85.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  UNITED STATES MISSIONARIES, SUDAN (ITALIAN ATTACK).
  Mr. Hannahasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any statement to make about the killing of American missionaries in the Sudan by Italians?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): Yes, Sir. I deeply regret to state that, according to reports telegraphed by the Governor-General of the Sudan, two Italian aircraft attacked the Sudan Interior Mission Station at Doro in the Upper Nile Province, 55 miles south-west of Kurmuk, at 10.30 a.m. on 23rd August. At least 30 bombs were dropped, and machine-guns were also used. Of the mission staff of five, Dr. and Mrs. Robert Grieve were killed and the Reverend and Mrs. Kenneth Oglesby wounded. All four victims were United States citizens, Miss Walsh, an Australian, escaping unhurt. In addition, a native girl and two boys were wounded. Dr. and Mrs. Grieve are reported to have fallen waving an American flag. The mission station at Doro is isolated far from any kind of military objective, but its location and nature were well known to the Italians, whose attack was clearly deliberate. This is shown by the fact that the Italian Commander at Kurmuk had sent a message earlier in August to the missionaries at Doro and Chali, another
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  station 35 miles south-south-west of Kurmuk, to report to him with passports. The reply to this message was under consideration by the missionaries when they were shot down in cold blood.
  Mr. Hannah: Has this been brought to the attention of the American Government?
  Mr. Butler: The American Government, I have no doubt, have observed this dastardly attack, and, no doubt, the publicity afforded by the hon. Member's Question will bring it further to the attention of the Americans.
  Mr. Hannah: It is about time.

  DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR SERVICES (LOST BELONGINGS).
  Mr. Vernon Bartlettasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why members of His Majesty's Diplomatic and Consular Services who have lost their belongings as a result of the invasion of the country in which they were employed are not to receive compensation until the end of the war?
  Mr. Butler: Compensation to Diplomatic and Consular Officers within certain limits can be paid whenever it can be definitely established that their effects have been stolen, destroyed or rendered useless by deterioration. Owing to the difficulty of establishing the facts, in most cases capital compensation may have to he deferred until the end of the war, but in that event an annual percentage payment will be made to these officers as compensation for deprivation of the use of their furniture.
  Mr. Bartlett: Is immediate compensation paid to Army officers who lost their belongings in France, or has that to wait too?
  Mr. Butler: It is the annual percentage payment made in respect of loss of furniture. I will consider the other point that the hon. Member makes and see what I can do.

  CHINA (MEDICAL SUPPLIES).
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Red Cross equipment, supplies, vehicles, etc., are now exempted from the ban on goods passing along the Burma

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  Road to China, as it is almost impossible to find alternative means of transport of medical material and ambulances to the interior of China?
  Mr. Butler: As I have informed the hon. Members for London University (Sir E. Graham-Little) and for East Wolver-hampton (Mr. Mander), the latter on 14th August, Red Cross supplies may be freely imported by the Burma Road.

  PALESTINE.

    MILITARY SERVICE (JEWS).
    Mr. Manderasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the present position with regard to the organisation of Jewish military forces in Palestine; and whether he is aware that, at the outbreak of war, the Jewish Agency organised the registration of the Jewish community for national service and obtained responses from 80,000 men and 50,000 women?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): As regards the first part of the Question, there are no specifically Jewish military forces in Palestine. The majority of Palestinian Jews who have enlisted into the British Army have joined the Palestinian Companies of the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps, but a few have joined other corps, mainly R.A.S.C. and R.A.O.C. Further additional Palestinian Companies are now being formed for infantry battalions stationed in Palestine, enlistment into which is open to Jews equally with other inhabitants of Palestine. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative.

    ETHIOPIAN CONVENT, JERUSALEM.
    Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have now instructed the High Commissioner in Palestine to give the custody of the Abyssinian convent in Jerusalem to those Abyssinians who were formerly recognised as the rightful owners?
    Mr. Butler: The Ethiopian convent in Jerusalem has throughout remained in the custody of those Ethiopians who were regarded as its rightful owners before His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom recognised the King of Italy as
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    the de jure Emperor of Ethiopia. The actions brought in the Palestine courts by the Italian Government for possession of this convent and other Ethiopian property have been stopped by the entry of Italy into the war. No question of instructions therefore arises.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the convent is in fact now in the hands of its Ethiopian owners?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.

    TANGANYIKA (MILITARY SERVICE).
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that compulsory service on behalf of the British war effort is enforced in Tanganyika, he will reconsider the position under which residents in Tanganyika are regarded as aliens in this country?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): I have been asked to reply. Residents in Tanganyika who are not British subjects and are not aliens are British protected persons. My right hon. Friend regrets that, as he has stated in answer to previous Questions, he is not prepared to exempt British protected persons, as such, from the provisions of the Aliens Order, but special and sympathetic consideration will be given to individual cases on their merits.
    Mr. Adams: Surely it is reasonable, if these British protected persons in Tanganyika are compelled to fight on behalf of the country, that they should not be treated as suggested in the Question?
    Mr. Peake: I understand that the Tanganyika Ordinance imposing compulsory military service applies only to local defence, to the defence, that is to say, of Tanganyika, and British protected persons resident in Tanganyika are not obliged to undergo compulsory military service in this country.

    CYPRUS (ARCHBISHOPRIC).
    Mr. Hannahasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any statement to make about the archbishopric of Cyprus?
    Mr. George Hall: I regret that the difficulties which have arisen in regard to the election of an Archbishop of Cyprus have not yet been resolved. Further consideration is being given to the matter, but I am not in a position to make any statement at present.

    LORRIES (INFLAMMABLEMATTER).
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that two children were burnt to death recently on the main road in Platt Bridge, Wigan, through a barrel of inflammable liquid falling off a lorry and bursting into flames; and will he take steps to see that lorry owners shall be compelled in future to exercise greater care in loading their vehicles?
    The Minister of Transport (Sir John Reith): Statutory regulations require loads on motor vehicles to be properly secured; the enforcement of the regulations is a matter for the police I understand that in this case proceedings were taken against the driver for driving his lorry with an insecure load, but the Court dismissed the charge.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

    MINISTERS' BROADCASTS TO UNITED STATES.
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Minister of Information whether he will arrange that important broadcasts by Ministers to the United States should be given at a time which will reach American listeners in the evening instead of in the afternoon?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Duff Cooper): The time of any Ministerial broadcast is fixed with a view to the convenience of the audience for which the broadcast is primarily intended. Thus broadcasts for North America are normally arranged at an hour corresponding to the peak listening time on the other side of the Atlantic. Ministerial broadcasts are, however, more often intended for home audiences. In such cases they are usually recorded and then repeated at an hour convenient for American listeners, if thought suitable.

    POLISH PUBLICATIONS, GREAT BRITAIN.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Information how many publications in
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    the Polish language have been given permission to commence publication in this country since 1st July; and whether their contents are submitted to censorship?
    Mr. Cooper: I am informed that six papers in the Polish language have been published in this country since 1st July. They are under no obligation to seek permission from His Majesty's Government, nor have they in fact done so. Their contents are subject to the same system of voluntary censorship as English newspapers.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the character of much that appears in these papers does the Minister not consider it desirable to give some attention to them?

    REGIONAL LOCAL COMMITTEES.
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Minister of Information what is the estimated annual cost of the regional local committees of the Ministry of Information?
    Mr. Cooper: On the basis of recent accounts, the expenditure of the 338 regional local committees is at the rate of £7,200 per annum.
    Sir A. Knox: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that this expenditure is really justified, in view of the fact that in the last War we did not incur a similar expenditure, and now the country is much more united than it was in the last war?
    Mr. Cooper: I have been looking very closely into the work of the local committees and have found very satisfactory results, and I have had very satisfactory reports from the Regional Commissioners.
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Minister of Information what is the annual expenditure on weekly regional bulletins, and what is the average circulation?
    Mr. Cooper: In the London Region 5,000 copies of a bulletin are issued weekly at an approximate cost, calculating postage at the normal public rates, of £13 10s. for each issue. In five other regions, bulletins have been issued at irregular intervals. The average circulation of these is about 600 copies, and the cost is approximately £8 for each issue.
    Sir A. Knox: Would it not be possible for the information contained in these bulletins to be given to organs of the

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    Press and thus secure a bigger circulation?
    Mr. Cooper: I am looking into that matter too. The demand for the bulletins varies in different districts. How far they are serving a useful purpose is now the subject of an inquiry.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Is not some of the information in the bulletins secret information? Some Members are glad to get hold of them so that they can get to know something.

    SPAIN.
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Minister of Information whether he will take additional steps to make known in Spain the British point of view and so counteract enemy propaganda?
    Mr. Cooper: Yes, Sir. Steps are being taken with the intention of making the British point of view better known in Spain than at present.
    Sir A. Knox: Will the right hon. Gentleman send British newspapers to Spain? There is a great demand, and there is great difficulty in getting them.
    Mr. Cooper: I am glad to say that steps have been taken in that matter, and a supply of British newspapers to Spain is now going regularly by air.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman also make it clear that the British point of view in regard to Spain is not necessarily the view held by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who asks the Question?
    Sir A. Knox: In the present state of international affairs should it not be our object to make as many friends as we can?

    POSTAL SERVICES (AIR-RAID WARNINGS).
    Sir Reginald Clarryasked the Postmaster-General by what authority or arrangement certain essential Post Office services are suspended during the period of air-raid warnings; whether he is aware that in the Newport area, where regular nightly warnings, each lasting many hours, take place, the servants of his Department during such warnings adjourn their duties to proceed to a shelter, allowing the mail-bags coming into the railway
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    station to accumulate and lie unattended on the platform; and, as this accumulation impedes the working of the railway service which is carried on without voluntary interruption, and as the delays consequent upon the suspension of the duties of this branch of the Post Office jeopardise the national war effort, what steps he is taking to improve the situation?
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison): The station at Newport adjoins the post office, and any mails have been cleared as quickly as circumstances have permitted. The rule hitherto has been for the postal staff to take cover on receipt of a public warning, but arrangements are now being made for a look-out to he kept, and work will as far as possible be continued until danger appears imminent. I understand that these arrangements meet with local approval.
    Sir R. Clarry: Is the situation as outlined in the Question of general application throughout the country, and would it account for the regrettable delays in postal affairs during the past two or three weeks?
    Mr. Morrison: The rule was general, as was explained in my original answer, but some weeks ago it was modified to the degree I have stated. The delay was mostly a matter of transport and alterations of train schedules.

    RETIRED PAY AND PENSIONS (ROYAL WARRANT).
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Prime Minister whether he will move to appoint a Select Committee to investigate the Royal Warrant for the Retired Pay and Pensions, etc., Command Paper 6205, the administration of the Ministry of Pensions, giving the committee power to receive evidence from organisations, ex-service men, widows, applicants for pensions, and to send for persons, papers and records?
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): The Royal Warrant which was issued so recently as June last was the result of a detailed examination of the existing Warrant carried out by the Minister of Pensions in consultation with his statutory Advisory Committee. The Committee was reconstituted for the purpose and was composed of representatives of the British Legion and War Pensions

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    Committees, together with seven members of this House nominated by the Whips of the three political parties. The Committee's proposals were substantially accepted by the Government, and are embodied in the new Warrant. In the circumstances I see no grounds for appointing a Select Committee.
    Mr. Smith: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that that answer is not satisfactory, but that in view of the present situation it is not opportune to press the matter, although we shall return to it at a later date?

    ALLIED NATIONALS, GREAT BRITAIN (MILITARY SERVICE).
    Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce legislation giving powers to Allied Governments in this country to call up their nationals for compulsory military service; and to what extent they already exercise powers of this kind?
    Mr. Attlee: His Majesty's Government intend to submit to Parliament in due course legislation to confer the necessary authority upon the Allied Governments in this country to call up their nationals for military service in accordance with their own existing national laws, but in conformity with uniform arrangements for the employment of all Allied manpower on war service. Until this legislation has been passed the position remains that the Allied Governments have the right to call upon their nationals in this country for military service in accordance with their own national laws, but that our own Courts and authorities have no power to assist the Allied Governments in enforcing such obligations for military service upon any of their nationals who may be unwilling to respond voluntarily.
    Mr. Mander: May I take it that the Allied Governments are desirous of having these extra powers of compulsory calling up?
    Mr. Attlee: Clearly.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: When such legislation is brought forward, will the problems of hardship and conscientious objection be considered, as is the case in our own law?
    Mr. Attlee: I explained in my answer that it will be in accordance with the law
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    of those countries. If the law of the particular country allows conscientious objection, the legislation will cover that, but if the law of the country does not allow it, the legislation will not.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there might be difficulties in such legislation arising out of the fact that at least two of the Allied Governments represented have strongly anti-Semitic and reactionary tendencies, which make it very difficult for some of their nationals in this country to serve willingly in their Forces, and that many of them would rather serve with the British Forces or with the Pioneer Corps?
    Mr. Lees-Smith: With regard to my right hon. Friend's reply concerning the differentiation between our system of conscription and that of the Allied nations, and the decision that the Allied nations' system shall be applied, will my right hon. Friend refer to the speech that was made by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for War in the Debate on this subject, because my impression is that the statement then made does not fully correspond with the statement which has just been made to the House?

    WAR HONOURS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS (COMMITTEE).
    Mr. Ammonasked the Prime Minister whether he will give the names of the personnel of the Committee on the Grant of Honours and Medals in Wartime?
    Mr. Attlee: The Committee on the grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals in time of war serves under the chairmanship of the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury. The other members are the Permanent Heads of the Admiralty, Air Ministry, Colonial Office, Dominions Office, Foreign Office, India Office and War Office, together with the Private Secretary to the King, the Prime Minister's Private Secretary, the Secretary of the Central Chancery of the Orders of Knighthood, the Naval Secretary to the First Lord of the Admiralty, the Military Secretary to the Secretary of State for War, the Member of the Air Council for Personnel, and the Secretary, Military Department, India Office. The Secretary to the Committee is an Officer of the Treasury. The Permanent Heads of cer-

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    tain other Departments of State are added to the Committee when matters specially concerning those Departments are under consideration.
    Mr. Ammon: May I ask whether the gentleman who presides over the Committee is Sir Horace Wilson, and whether this is the Committee which decided that an equal award should not be given for equal merit in the Royal Air Force?
    Mr. Attlee: I cannot say anything without notice with regard to what previous decisions have been made. The Permanent Secretary to the Treasury is Sir Horace Wilson.
    Mr. Ammon: Does not this indicate that persons prejudiced on social lines are given an opportunity of deciding these matters?
    Mr. Riley: Is it satisfactory that such powers should be placed in the hands of civil servants to decide without any authority from the Government or Members of the War Cabinet?
    Mr. Granville: Is it intended to co-opt somebody connected with the Civil Defence services on that Committee?
    Mr. Attlee: I should require notice of that Question.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Will this Committee take into consideration the question of grants of honours for civilian heroism in war-time, in view of recent developments in this country?
    Mr. Riley: Is it satisfactory that a Committee of this kind should have this responsibility?
    Mr. Attlee: That is a matter of opinion. In reply to the hon. Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones), this Committee does take into account civilian acts of gallantry.
    Mr. Shinwell: Surely my right hon. Friend does not regard an important matter of this kind as a matter of opinion?
    Mr. Attlee: I was asked the question as a matter of opinion. This is a committee which deals with the general details of the matter, because the main matters of policy concerned are dealt with by the Government. The responsibility for the award of honours is the responsibility of the Government.
    Mr. Ammon: I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

    SAWMILLS.
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that the number of sawmills in this country is inadequate to cut the available home-grown timber; and will he take steps to remedy this deficiency?
    The Minister of Supply (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. Steps are being taken for the full use of existing sawmills, and new portable mills are being put into operation as speedily as they can be procured.

    WASTE SALVAGE.
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that large quantities of paper and other articles suitable for salvage are still put into dustbins and lost; and whether he will again consider the proposal that householders be required by order to keep such things for separate collection?
    Mr. H. Morrison: In view of the response by householders generally to the appeals for their co-operation in the salvage campaign, and having regard to present circumstances, I do not consider it desirable to make an order at this juncture in the sense suggested by my hon. Friend.

    RAILWAY CHARGES.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Supply whether he has made an estimate of the increased extra cost to be borne by his Department on the basis of the increased rates for which the railway companies are now applying?
    Mr. H. Morrison: The preparation of an estimate of the kind the hon. Member has in mind would require special inquiries and investigation of prices, which I do not think I should be justified in having undertaken at the present time.
    Mr. Gallacher: Does not the Minister feel that it would be quite right for his Department to make such an estimate, and to join in the public opposition to the demands of the railway companies?
    Mr. Morrison: After consideration, I have taken the view that it would not be appropriate that the considerable time

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    that would be involved should be utilised by the Ministry for this purpose.
    Mr. Shinwell: While appreciating that there would be some difficulty in making an estimate of the kind asked for, I take it that it is to be assumed that my right hon. Friend is concerned about a possible increase in freights?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, to the extent that the Ministry of Supply would be involved in the movement of transportation, but I think it would be unwise to divert the energies of my officers to the considerable labour of finding out these figures.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    ANIMAL FATS.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food who disposes of the edible and other fats of animals killed in Government slaughterhouses; are they in the hands of a monopoly; what Government control is exercised over it; what are the ruling prices per pound for fats; and how do these compare with the pre-war figures?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Boothby): All raw fats of animals killed in Government slaughter-houses are distributed by the Chairman of the local Fat Melters Advisory Committees to melters licensed by the Ministry. No monopoly exists outside the Ministry's control. The fats are the Ministry's property and are sold to the individual melters for manufacture into dripping and tallow, in accordance with Ministry instructions. Weekly returns of raw fats required and finished products manufactured are made to the Ministry. The price charged to melters for sweet fat used for making dripping is 2.4d. per lb.; the pre-war price averaged 1.5d. per lb. The price charged for inedible fat used for making tallow varies in different areas, but is of the order of .32d. per lb. There was no firm market price for inedible offals before the war. The maximum statutory price for dripping is 6d. per lb.; before the war the price varied from 5d. to 10d. per lb.

    DAIRY PRODUCTS.
    Colonel Carverasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in addition to the introduction of the National Milk Powder Scheme, it is
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    proposed still further to compete with or control dairy products?
    Mr. Boothby: The manufacture of and trade in butter, cheese and condensed milk are already controlled, and a similar control for milk powder is under consideration.

    MILK.
    Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what plans he has in view for the reorganisation of the milk distributing industry?
    Sir Herbert Williamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether it is intended to introduce any changes in the methods of milk distribution?
    Mr. Boothby: I regret that I am unable to make any statement on this matter until my Noble Friend has received the report of the Committee which he has appointed to advise him on the costs of milk distribution.
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: Has the Minister any idea when this report is likely to be received?
    Mr. Boothby: We expect it before the end of this month.
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the number of persons entitled to benefit by the cheap or free milk scheme, and the actual numbers now receiving the same with the percentage in receipt of free milk?
    Mr. Boothby: The particulars desired by my hon. Friend are being obtained, and I will send them to him as soon as possible.
    Mr. Thorne: Is there any shortage of milk, because it is very difficult to obtain even a small glass of milk in a restaurant? Even this morning I found it difficult to obtain a glass of milk.
    Mr. Boothby: No, Sir, so far as I am aware, but if the hon. Member will send me particulars, I will be glad to look into them.
    Mr. Adams: As there happens to be a wide discrepancy between those who can take advantage of the scheme and those who do not, will special steps be taken to bring it to general notice?
    Mr. Boothby: Yes, Sir. There is a smaller percentage taking advantage of the scheme in Scotland compared with England, and steps have been taken to draw the attention of the Scottish public to the scheme.
    Miss Rathbone: Is it not a fact that there is a special need for co-operation between the health and education authorities, and a special need for provision for children who are of school age but who are unable to attend school? At the present time they are not provided for in the free and cheapened food schemes.
    Mr. Boothby: No, Sir, the hon. Member is misinformed. Under a recent decision all children under five, whether at school or not, can now be provided for.
    Miss Rathbone: My Question refers to children over five who are prevented from attending school for health reasons or because the schools have closed down. I think the Minister will find that that is a neglected class under the present arrangement.
    Mr. Boothby: They do not come under this scheme.

    WHOLEMEAL FLOUR.
    Sir Francis Fremantle (for Sir Ernest Graham-Little)asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether there are any stocks in this country of wholemeal flour comparable in amount to the stocks of white straight-run flour to implement his undertaking that wholemeal flour can be purchased on the same terms as white flour; and what information he has more recent than that contained in the Royal Commission Report of 1921 as to the preference for white flour which he ascribes to the community generally?
    Mr. Boothby: No stocks of wholemeal flour, beyond ordinary trade stocks, are being carried, for the reason that wholemeal flour deteriorates rapidly in store. Exact figures of the quantity consumed are not available, but the proportion lies between 5 per cent. and 10 per cent. of total output. Wholemeal flour is available at the same price as white flour, and the high consumption of the latter appears to afford sufficient evidence of the public's preference.

    WHEAT.
    Mr. John Morganasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether imported wheat is available to poultry keepers at or about the price paid for it, or are poultry keepers to be charged English wheat prices?
    Mr. Boothby: Supplies of imported wheat are not now being issued for the feeding of poultry or any other class of livestock. Any stocks of such wheat that may remain in the hands of the trade cannot be sold at a price above that prescribed in the Feeding-stuffs Maximum Prices Order of 30th July, namely, £7 4s. 1d. per ton, which is less than half the maximum price for home-produced wheat.

    SUGAR.
    Mr. J. Morganasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the basis for the recent increase in the shopping price of sugar, seeing that the world price for sugar is continually falling, and that Cuban new contract price is less than ½d. per pound prime cost?
    Mr. Boothby: Sugar supplies for this country are drawn mainly from Empire sources, and purchases of Cuban sugar have been relatively small. The recent increase in the retail price is due to increases in costs of the raw sugar and of freights, insurance, refining, storage, transport and distribution.
    Mr. Morgan: Although we are not buying from Cuba, is it not a fact that Cuba is an index of world prices of sugar? Is it not a fact that sugar has fallen by one-half in the last 12 months on the world markets?
    Mr. Boothby: The price of sugar has gone down slightly on the world market, but we have always confined ourselves mainly to Empire purchases, in view of the dollar situation.
    Mr. Morgan: Does not a halfpenny per pound increase represent the prime cost of the sugar?
    Mr. Boothby: I have explained in my answer that there are various factors which have increased the cost to us beyond the price of the raw sugar.
    Mr. Morgan: But you are making a profit on it?
    Mr. Boothby: I would not go so far as to say that.

    INTERNEES.
    Mr. Manderasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the advisability of authorising commandants of internment camps to give permission on their own responsibility for internees to keep visa appointments at the American and other consulates in London, to pay visits to relatives who are seriously ill, or to receive visits from business associates?
    Mr. Peake: As regards visits to consulates by intending emigrants, a careful scheme has been worked out which will, I hope, avoid delays, and the operation of this scheme would be hindered rather than helped by leaving to each commandant a discretion to make his own arrangements. As regards visits to relatives who are ill, it is occasionally possible to allow a visit under escort if only a short journey is involved, but often these cases are met by releases under Category 18 of the White Paper. Visits to internees must be governed by a general policy, and for this purpose the system of requiring applications to be made to the Home Office must be maintained.
    Mr. Mander: Is the Minister aware that a number of internees have lost their boats to the United States owing to the fact that commandants in the camps have no authority to permit them to go to visa appointments without referring to the Home Office? Is not that a matter which ought to be put right?
    Mr. Peake: I regret to say that there was some delay and confusion in this matter in the early stages of general internment. We have now worked out a scheme with the co-operation of the Consulates and the Central Refugee Cornmittee at Bloomsbury House, which, I think, will work smoothly and expeditiously.
    Mr. Mander: Is it still necessary for commandants to obtain permission from the Home Office in every case, even where it is obvious that appointments should be made?
    Mr. Peake: I will communicate the details of the scheme to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Does the Minister mean that the new scheme has been brought into force and that delays have already been eliminated?
    Mr. Peake: I hope so.
    Sir H. Williams: Does it cover the case of interned persons who desire to go to the United States before the end of this month and cannot do it while they are interned?
    Mr. Peake: I really do not follow the question, which appears to me to relate to the question of releases on business grounds.
    Sir H. Williams: Temporary releases.
    Mr. Peake: That is not provided for except in the case of extreme hardship or illness.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the Minister aware that the greatest feeling of bitterness is in the case of those who are going to the United States and who are kept in internment up to the last minute and cannot therefore wind up their affairs? Is the Minister not going to make some change to release these persons a few days before they leave the country?
    Mr. Peake: A change has already been made in the procedure in that respect. Arrangements have been made for the release of internees as soon as their visas have been granted.
    Major Milner (for Mr. Silverman)asked the Home Secretary whether he will make arrangements to secure that when an alien is released upon medical grounds his interned wife shall be released simultaneously, so that invalids shall not be left without the requisite care and attention?
    Mr. Peake: When it is decided to release a married man from internment it is already the practice to consider the question of releasing his wife if she also is interned.
    Major Milner: Has an order been given that the wife shall be simultaneously released with the husband?
    Mr. Peake: Certainly not. The women who are interned are all in either Category A or B. It is obvious that there must be special security grounds for maintaining the internment of the wife, but if the husband is released because he is an invalid or infirm, there is a strong prima facie case for the release of the wife so that she can look after him.
    Miss Rathbone: May I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, which will give satisfaction to many internees and their wives, and ask whether that practice will

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    happen automatically and that we need not make a special application for the release of a wife when the husband is released because of sickness?
    Mr. Peake: I said in my original answer that it is already the practice to consider these cases without special application being made.
    Major Milner: Is my hon. Friend aware that the practice is not in fact being carried out?

SECRET SESSION.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): Mr. Speaker, I beg to call your attention to the fact that strangers are present.
Mr. Speaker: The Question is, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."
Question put, and agreed to.
Strangers withdrew accordingly.
The following record of the subsequent proceedings is taken from the Votes and Proceedings:
Resolved, "That the remainder of this day's Sitting be a Secret Session."—(Mr. Attlee.)

ADJOURMENT.
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Capt. Margesson.)
Adjourned accordingly at One Minute before Four o'clock.
[The following Report of the Secret Session was issued under the authority of MR. SPEAKER;
"The House went into Secret Session, and a Debate took place on the recent aerial bombardment of the country.
Members representing London and other constituencies affected drew attention to the many problems which have arisen.
The Minister of Home Security and the Minister of Health replied to the Debate."]

MILK MARKETING BOARDS.
  MILK MARKETING BOARDS.
  MILK MARKETING BOARDS.
FOOD PRICE INVESTIGATION COMMITTEES.
  FOOD PRICE INVESTIGATION COMMITTEES.
  FOOD PRICE INVESTIGATION COMMITTEES.
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.
  LEATHER WASTE.
  LEATHER WASTE.
  GAUGES, JIGS AND TOOLS.
  GAUGES, JIGS AND TOOLS.
  TRANSPORT (CONDUCTRESSES, PLATFORM SEATS).
  TRANSPORT (CONDUCTRESSES, PLATFORM SEATS).
  ECCLESIASTICAL PROPERTY (WAR DAMAGE).
  ECCLESIASTICAL PROPERTY (WAR DAMAGE).
  TELEPHONE CALLS (GREENOCK AND GOUROCK).
  TELEPHONE CALLS (GREENOCK AND GOUROCK).
  FOOD SUPPLIES (POTATOES AND EGGS, PRICES).
  FOOD SUPPLIES (POTATOES AND EGGS, PRICES).
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  NEWSPAPER ARTICLES.
  NEWSPAPER ARTICLES.
  AIR DEFENCE CADETS CORPS.
  AIR DEFENCE CADETS CORPS.
  INTERNEES (TRANSFERENCE OVERSEAS).
  INTERNEES (TRANSFERENCE OVERSEAS).
  WIRE AND WIRE PRODUCTS (EXPORTS).
  WIRE AND WIRE PRODUCTS (EXPORTS).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
CLYDE LIGHTHOUSES CONSOLIDATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2ª and reported from the Committee.
CLYDE LIGHTHOUSES CONSOLIDATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
  URBAN DISTRICT OF CHURCH STRETTON ORDER.
  URBAN DISTRICT OF HALSTEAD ORDER.
  URBAN DISTRICT OF NORTH-ALLERTON ORDER.
  BOROUGH OF STAMFORD ORDER.
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, I beg to move that this House do approve the said Orders.
  Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on Thursday, the 5th instant, be approved.—(Lord Croft.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE BRITISH AND ALLIED CASE.
LORD ADDISON LORD ADDISON rose to ask His Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to secure an adequate presentation of the British and Allied case at home and abroad; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not need to emphasize the importance of the Motion that stands in my name because it concerns a very critical and vital part of our war effort. I understand that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Houses wishes to be able to get away to
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an important meeting as soon as possible, so that I shall curtail my remarks to the maximum extent, but there are certain aspects of the matter which I must present in some little detail. So far as the British case is concerned, whether in neutral countries or in foreign countries—and, I should imagine, to a very large section of the people in Germany—ours is a much better case than the Nazi case. We appeal all over the world to everybody who loves freedom and individual liberty, and yet we are bound to admit, I think, that so far as propaganda is concerned, Nazi propaganda has been much more active, and in many countries much more successful, than ours, whilst it should have been quite the contrary.
I have been supplied with some excellent and carefully-prepared notes which are the result of examination by people who know, and I want to present certain aspects of the case in the hope, anyhow, that the representative of the Government will pass on these suggestions and, if possible, make use of some of them. There seem to be certain obvious reasons why our propaganda has not been so successful as that of the Germans. In saying that, I am not in the least suggesting that we should imitate the lying methods of Dr. Goebbels and his friends. Truth is so strong and so excellent that what we have got to do is to use the truth, and I am not sure we are doing that. At all events, the Germans have made propaganda a real weapon of war, and they have centralised the direction of it under a central command. That command is assisted by a world-wide intelligence service. It is assisted by departments that study the whole system on a strategic plan. They mobilise the services of the radio and the foreign Press, and they have, I suppose, in every country—very likely in this country as well—nests of their own propagandists. The whole thing is inspired and directed by, evidently, from their immoral point of view, a highly efficient staff. We as usual have lagged behind in a good many respects.
May I examine our efforts very briefly so far as they affect three groups of people? First, in the neutral countries, it appears that our existing agencies are threefold. We have the foreign and American publicity divisions of the Ministry of Information and the B.B.C., but they do not seem to work as one or

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under any common direction. I am afraid it is true to say that a good many of the B.B.C. broadcasts, excellent as they are to ourselves, are not, according to information at my disposal, the kind of broadcasts which would make the appeal that ought to be made to people in neutral countries. What happens, I understand, is that a lot of things is collected, and then it is translated into these foreign languages. Now the translators, or those who give out the broadcasts in the different foreign languages to neutrals, are no doubt members for the most part of those nationalities, but they are not allowed, I understand, to make suggestions as to the adaptation of this news, the presentation of our case, and the kind of material that ought to be put in it. It is, no doubt, an accurate and a well-articulated translation of the B.B.C. versions of things. But that is not good enough. The news should be made acceptable. I have no doubt that it should be in some respects different. For example, take the Norwegians. They want information about what is happening to their own people.
Neutrals all over the world want all kinds of items of information that are of much greater interest to them than they are to us. What, I understand, occurs is that so far as neutrals are concerned there are just these translations given out, and there is no conference between the people who know these countries at first hand and the authorities who are in control of these two divisions of the Ministry of Information or the B.B.C. Well, there ought to be. This ought to be harmonised and directed so as to make the best appeal to the people in foreign countries. I understand that in this respect there are two major difficulties. There is lack of co-ordination and there is also considerable difficulty experienced still by the Ministry of Information with regard to sending news overseas. It has no control over cables and wireless. I had a case put to me where a cable took fifteen hours to reach South America. We had a few experiences retailed yesterday with regard to the difficulty of getting into the War Office and other Departments. We know many cases in which the Germans have been ahead of us in getting their news across, and it is perfectly clear that one reason for this is that there is no adequate control here over cables and wireless and
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the methods of communication. Amongst other things I find, in regard to the expenses of the Foreign Publicity Department of the Ministry of Information, that so far as the expenses on these cables are concerned the Treasury are very parsimonious. The Treasury put the screw on. That is all very well at other times, but this is not a time to be parsimonious in presenting our case through cables to neutral countries.
Now let me say a word about the countries occupied by the Nazis. In those countries there must be tens of millions of people who are profoundly hateful of the Nazi system, who are oppressed, who have had their liberties taken from them and their homes broken up. If there is a mass of people ready-made, so to speak, for the presentation of the British case, it is in those occupied countries. There is in fact almost no limit to the material that could be made use of. I am quite sure that so far we have not tackled this job properly. There are in this country members of all these States sympathetic to ourselves and only too anxious to be made full use of. I understand that here again there is the same separateness between the branches of the Ministry of Information and the B.B.C. Above all, this matter is thought of from the English point of view. I think I am a good Englishman, but if I wanted a case presented to the Dutch I should get a Dutchman to help me to do it, and the same suggestion applies in the case of the other countries. But that is not what happens. These translators, I understand, have got to do what they are told.
Then take the opportunities of propaganda in Germany itself. They must be immense. It is true that the whole country is held down by the Nazi machine; but I remember very well what happened in the last war. It was a long time, in fact nearly three years, before this country took effective measures to get across to the people in Germany the disappointments from which their Army was suffering. Take our present experience. The Germans have been told by loud voiced propaganda scores of times that this Blitzkrieg was to finish the British Empire in no time, and that Hitler was going to make a triumphal entry into London, I think on August 15, and all the rest of it, dressed up with great

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embellishments and loud-sounding terms time after time. I have no doubt there are millions in Germany who are now asking themselves the question: How is it, after all these professions, that no British bomber will respect the sacred right of Germany, and that British bombers are bombing the Potsdam station in Berlin and other places? There must be millions in Germany who are wondering how it is that the prophecies that have been made have not come off. They must be thinking that something has gone wrong, as a good many of them began to suspect far too late after the Battle of the Marne in the last war what it meant. It was a long time before they realised what the German Staff had realised, that the trench warfare which had started in France would mean their ultimate defeat.
But there are masses of material available for us with which to influence the millions of discontented people that there must be in Germany. I know there are vast numbers of suppressed trades unionists and labour leaders who are as resentful as ever. What is our agency for getting across our case to these people? I am told there is an Enemy Propaganda Department. Where it lives I do not know, nor do I know who is responsible for it and I am not wishful to press any improper inquiries. I understand it is not under the Ministry of Information, but, under whatever Department, it ought to be given adequate funds and unlimited staff and full opportunity to do the job properly. I think it is absurd that it should be a separate set of people who deal with propaganda in Germany itself. We have got masses of refugees and journalists and all kinds of experienced people in this country who know how to handle this case in Germany, and for my part I should not be at all sticky as to what methods I adopted to stir up trouble in Germany amongst trade unionists or anybody else there or anywhere else. But it cannot be done unless we are prepared to create an effective organisation to deal with it. It seems to me that there are at present odd bits and pieces all over the place in the Ministry of Information and in the B.B.C. and in this other mysterious Department that lives somewhere or other.
The real reason, I believe, is that we with our characteristic and laudable love of truth and reliance upon the fact that
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it gets across in the end—which I believe is true—have not taken effective steps to create machinery to present the case. Three or four things are urgently required. They stick out as necessary. We ought to formulate a sufficient statement of our war aims. I am not going to press for details, nor am I going to argue the case, but I think a sufficient statement of our war aims should be presented, and if we can get it across by any means—whether overt or subterranean does not matter—it would have a great influence on large numbers of people in Germany and particularly in the occupied countries. All our propaganda in neutral countries, in occupied countries and in enemy countries should be centralised under a single propaganda command. We got that in the last war in 1917—and not before—and it made a profound difference to the outlook in many countries, particularly in America.
So far as the Treasury put a veto on expense, I think this is one of those cases, like the provision of shells, where we must be prepared to spend money freely. We ought not to throw it away, of course, but to think that you can be parsimonious about cables or wireless in a matter of this kind is just folly. Above all, this organization, I think, should be put in the charge of one man and should not be in half a dozen hands as it seems to be now. He should be a man who understands the business and not somebody who is a novice. I am always afraid myself of newspaper people because they give me a sort of creepy feeling that they have been brought up in a world of which I know next to nothing, but I do know that if you want a case presented you must employ somebody who is an expert at the job and give him a free hand and plenty of money and lots of organisation and all that he wants. I wish the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, would take on the job. He is the kind of man who would do it. There is profound dissatisfaction everywhere amongst people who are in any way acquainted with what happens at the inadequate way in which our case has been presented. I must apologise to your Lordships for gabbling over the case and cutting it so short as I have done, but I think I have said enough to give the noble Viscount the Leader of the House a general view of what is in my mind. I beg to move for Paper.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, there is one point I wish to mention because it refers to a question which I asked the noble Viscount yesterday as to the position of the British Council now that the Ministry of Information has been created. The British Council, as he knows, was established some time before the war and I understood it was an adjunct of the Foreign Office. I should have thought that once the Ministry of Information had been created the British Council would have become part and parcel of that Ministry, and I was glad to hear from the noble Viscount that consideration would be given to the question of carrying on the activities of the British Council and Ministry of Information as one Department in the future.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord opposite for his courtesy in curtailing the observations which he would have made but for an intimation I gave him that I have been asked to be elsewhere as soon as possible. I hope that the noble Lord did not omit any essential facts which he wished to bring to your Lordships' notice. The question which the noble Lord has asked is what steps are being taken to secure adequate presentation of the British and Allied case at home and abroad. I may say at once in answer to that that whatever steps are being taken nobody ought to rest content with the adequacy of those steps. There must be constant attention to defects and omissions and constant determination to improve them. For that reason I am much obliged to the noble Lord for the suggestions which he made. They will of course be considered by my right honourable friend the Minister of Information.
It may be convenient to state briefly in answer to the noble Lord's question first of all what are the steps which are being taken for adequate presentation. Let it be realised that the Minister of Information is responsible only for the presentation of the British case and not for preparing material or settling the policy. The noble Lord suggested that it would be an advantage if a sufficient statement of our war aims at the present time were made. That, of course, is a question of high Government policy and the Minister of Information, though he may be a
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member of any body of Ministers which is considering the question, is concerned as Minister of Information only with the presentation of the statement of our war aims when they have been formulated. I know that the noble Lord and many others would like to see our war aims formulated and I have every reason to believe that the Prime Minister, as well as my noble friend the Foreign Secretary, is aware of that desire in many quarters.
With reference to the steps that are being taken to present our case abroad, inevitably the British Broadcasting Corporation is the principal agent for the presentation of the British case. The noble Lord referred to the more successful propaganda of the enemy. It has to be realised that from the point of view of facilities for the presentation of a case Germany has an advantage—which of course she does not deserve—in that she has appropriated in the middle of the Continent practically all the broadcasting stations, which operate over a land area where the matter that has to be put out will be effective. We are confined at present to stations which operate from Great Britain and their effectiveness is dispersed over a great area of ocean instead of land. Therefore Germany has an advantage at present. But I may take this opportunity of saying that His Majesty's Government have no intention whatever of sitting down under that disadvantage, and steps are being taken actively to overtake the superiority which at present is possessed by Germany by reason of the possession of stations of her own and those of other countries which she has appropriated.
The British Broadcasting Corporation has world services which operate over twenty hours out of the twenty-four. It has two European services operating, one over eighteen hours out of the twenty-four hours and the other for eight and a half hours out of the twenty-four. It is the Special Areas service which is used as the opportunity for reaching the Greek, Arabic and Turkish-speaking peoples in the Near East, and in South Africa, for instance, for reaching the Afrikaans-speaking population, and for reaching Latin America. This Special Areas service, I am informed, operates for over sixteen hours out of each twenty-four. There are seventy-two news bulletins in twenty-nine languages. As

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the noble Lord opposite quite correctly said, they are translated into the appropriate language by nationals of the countries who will receive the broadcast; but the noble Lord was not so accurate in what he said about these translators. They are not persons who merely go through a mechanical process; they are expected to use their intelligence, and it is not right to suggest that they are restricted in their opportunities for making suggestions. There is, of course, a controlling editor; but, subject to the discretion of the controlling editor, the translators are not merely allowed but invited to make suggestions for the very purpose that the noble Lord mentioned, of improving the broadcast both in form and to some extent in matter. I say "to some extent in matter" because naturally the translators have not the same facilities as other persons for knowing what the matter is. They are allowed the fullest opportunities for making suggestions as to the form and substance of the programmes broadcasted.
As an illustration of what is contained in these seventy-two news bulletins, there are six bulletins of varied descriptions for the French. The noble Lord mentioned particularly the question of broadcasts to Germany. There are programmes, lasting in all from two to three hours, which are timed for the express purpose of reaching the special audiences which are likely to listen to them. For instance, there is a broadcast at six o'clock (German time) every morning for the German workers, and the programme is adapted to meet their particular susceptibilities and views and generally it is of such a nature as to suit the persons who are expected to listen to it.
The noble Lord referred to the "Enemy Propaganda Department." I cannot say that I recognise that title as the appropriate name of a department, but there is the open enemy propaganda which comes under the Ministry of Information. There is also secret enemy propaganda, but, as the noble Lord and indeed all your Lordships are well aware, that is conducted under a veil which no one ever attempts to lift; and it would be quite improper, even if it were possible, for me to give details as to the apparatus used or as to the nature of that propaganda. To disclose the details, even if I had them,
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would be to defeat the purpose for which the organisation is used. That part of our propaganda organisation is not under the Ministry of Information, as the noble Lord will readily understand, but I can give him an assurance that what I may call the "open propaganda" in enemy countries is under one head, and it lives in the same place as the rest of the organisation of the Ministry of Information.
Special attention is given to the provision of matter for propaganda in North America, and it is being constantly developed. I am told that on September 29 a still more forward step will be taken. The United States of America is in rather a different position from that of many other countries; it enjoys the priceless privilege, which we have in this country also, of being allowed to think for itself. It is not so much a question of preventing what I may perhaps call "straight" propaganda in North America as of supplying the facts and information upon which a free-thinking people may be allowed to form opinions for itself. It is necessarily—if I may be allowed to put it in this way—a question of catering for people who are living on a higher level than those in the enslaved countries of Europe, who have to be provided with propaganda which will get over the German obstruction and resistance to our methods.
LORD ADDISON: I hope that the noble Viscount will not forget the point which I made—I am afraid very sketchily—as to the lack of relationship with, or control over, cables and wireless, and the consequent delay of messages which has often occurred in the case of both North America and South America.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: I was going to say a word about that, and I will say it now. I am not quite sure that I appreciate what the noble Lord suggests is the reason for the delay, or whose responsibility or fault it is. I am assured that there is close co-operation between Cables and Wireless and the Ministry of Information. So far as delay in the sending of cables by the company is concerned, that may be due to faults of organisation which may require attention, if what the noble Lord says is right, as no doubt it is; I accept it from him. I will see that when this debate is considered by the Minister of Information, attention is given to that point.

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In that connection, the noble Lord referred to what he called the parsimonious attitude of the Treasury. I do not suppose that there is any department of our public life upon which the Treasury do not cast a shadow—if it is not disrespectful to say so—but the noble Lord is perfectly right in suggesting, to use a common saying, that it is a pity to spoil the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar. If we can make our propaganda more effective by a larger expenditure upon telegrams, it would be folly to save a few hundred thousand pounds and to have less effective propaganda than we might otherwise have. If the Treasury have been parsimonious, the fact that the noble Lord has given a certain amount of publicity to the matter may encourage them to be less sparing in the permission which they give for public expenditure. Here again I will take care that attention is given to this matter, but I must not be taken as accepting the contention that there has been any real restriction on these telegrams. I accept the fact that the noble Lord is speaking on information given to him, but there may be another side to the question which he has raised.
In addition to the British Broadcasting Corporation, a great deal of use is made of the Press. I think that the noble Lord was inclined to suggest that we have no means of ascertaining the state of opinion upon which our propaganda ought to have influence in foreign countries. We do have the closest touch with these countries through our Press Attachés. The Press Attachés at our Legations and Embassies send a daily cable summarising the main topics of comment in the Press of the countries where they reside, and that, of course, gives an opportunity for the Ministry of Information to prepare and to distribute without any delay the counteracting information which it is hoped will make truth prevail. A very close watch is kept upon enemy propaganda, and I can assure the noble Lord from personal knowledge that day by day, with great and remarkable promptness, a survey is made of the Press and propaganda of enemy and other countries, which is immediately considered and as far as possible answered.
A third branch of our publicity is, of course, the film propaganda. Your Lordships are aware of the wide use that is made of British news-reels. This seems
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almost too obvious to need mention. These news-reels, though British in origin, are not, of course, sent out with the letterpress in the English language; they are done in the language of the country in which they will be exhibited. A special weekly news-reel is sent out to all our Colonies, so that there is a wide distribution of a fresh and up-to-date piece of information which is suitable for those parts of the British Empire. The use of pamphlets is an obvious step, and it is a use which is very familiar to those who are acquainted with our propaganda; but here again it is not desirable that too much should be said as to the use of this weapon, because pamphlets are written by a variety of persons in a variety of connections, and they are likely to be the more useful as they are designed to attract readers who perhaps would not be equally attracted by obvious propaganda put in front of their noses.
So far as home propaganda is concerned, we enjoy in this country the happiness of finding plenty of courage and resource that are native to our people. It is not necessary to stimulate them: they want to be sustained and supported by facts, as the noble Lord has said; but fortunately propaganda at home is a very different question from propaganda abroad. We look at the practical aspect of this question; that is to say, the Ministry of Information is careful to present and to expound to the best of its ability the Government policy, and to release and distribute the information which the public desire to have on matters in which they are interested. For the rest, we may place full confidence in the determination of our people not to be the victims of rumours or of any propaganda.
I have tried briefly, as the noble Lord was brief, to describe the steps that are being taken to present the British case. I am well aware of the feeling, which I myself have sometimes shared, and I am sure the Ministry of Information has sometimes shared, that somehow or other we are not naturally so adept or successful at propaganda as some other nations. Possibly that may arise for the reason that the noble Lord mentioned—namely, that we are inclined, and determined indeed, to adhere more strictly to the truth than propagandists of other countries. Truth is great and will prevail, and although there may be a time-lag, which

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sometimes may make us a little impatient, if we persevere with the presentation of facts we are certain in the end to succeed better than if we resorted to lies and prevarications. Nobody has any doubt that the Ministry of Information is not guilty of that mistake. I began by saying that we need to give constant attention to the steps taken in this connection, and I can assure the noble Lord that his observations and the comments that have been made will be useful in directing attention to points upon which there may be possibly some dissatisfaction in some quarters.
With reference to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, of course, the British Council is not under the Ministry of Information. As I told him last night, and as I can now confirm, there is no present intention of combining the two, and indeed my noble friend Lord Snell tells me that there is no desire, so far as he knows, on the part of the British Council to be amalgamated with the Ministry of Information. It is doing good and useful work. It is under the Foreign Office, and it is the intention of the Government that for the time being it shall continue to operate under the general direction of my noble friend Lord Halifax.
LORD ADDISON: I should like to thank the noble Viscount for his statement and, in asking leave to withdraw the Motion, I may say that, owing to the briefness of my remarks, I am taking the opportunity shortly of sending to the noble Viscount a memorandum containing the suggestions which I omitted in what I said.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I shall be most grateful, and I will convey that to my right honourable friend the Minister.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

THE WESTERN COMMAND.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I should like to ask the first question I have put on the Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether in view of the wide area at present covered by the Western Com-
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mand and the special conditions existing in Wales they will consider establishing, as in the case of Scotland, a separate Military Command for the Principality; and whether they are now in a position to make any statement regarding the formation of a Welsh Division.]
LORD CROFT: My Lords, we are unaware of such special conditions in Wales as would necessitate breaking up the existing organisation of the Western Command, which is, in fact, not the largest Command in point of geographical area. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's question, this is not quite understood, as there are already two Welsh divisions in existence, the 38th and the 53rd.

AUXILIARY MILITARY PIONEER CORPS.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask my second question.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask his Majesty's Government whether it is proposed to re-arm the five companies of the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps, consisting of friendly aliens employed with the B.E.F. in France, when the combatant Divisions and Home Guards have been re-equipped; and whether in future these companies will enjoy the same status as other companies in this Corps.]
LORD CROFT: My Lords, in view of the good work carried out by the friendly alien Auxiliary Military Pioneer companies during the operations on the Continent, and more especially in the latter part of the operations in France, the question of altering the war equipment to include arms is at present under discussion. The Home Guards will first have to be equipped.

ASSETS OF THE BALTIC STATES.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask my third question.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government if they can state whether securities and assets were lodged in this country by the Governments of the Baltic Republics before they became associated with the U.S.S.R.; whether the

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ban upon the transfer of these assets will now be removed; and whether they are yet in a position to make a statement on this question.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I am not quite sure that I understand the first part of the noble Lord's question. The securities and assets affected by the Order in Council to which he refers are all those held in this country for any purpose by any person or body in the three Baltic States, and not merely those belonging to the Governments of these States and lodged here by them. I presume, however, that the noble Lord has in mind the assets which the Baltic State Banks entrusted to banks in this country. These, like the other Baltic assets, are still detained under the Order in Council; and, as discussions involving them are still proceeding with the Soviet Government, I regret that I am not yet in a position to make a statement on this question.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, as my noble and learned friend is aware, there is a lot of uneasiness about the delay in settling this matter, and much satisfaction
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will be felt by many people in this country if it can be quickly dealt with.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not myself know the circumstances in detail, but, as I have already said, discussions are still proceeding with the Soviet Government, and I imagine that it is necessary to reach an agreement. As the noble Lord will be aware, the Defence Finance Regulations contain a general provision which restricts the sending of assets in different forms out of the country, and therefore, of course, some special arrangement has to be made.

SECRET SESSION.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that the further sitting of the House this day be secret.
Moved, That the further sitting of the House this day be secret.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.
The Official Reporter then withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House adjourned.