Sitting of 27 November 1940

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

THE ADDRESS: MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lord, I have to convey to the House the following Message from the King, signed with his own hand:
"I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present Session of Parliament."

MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have to convey to the House also the following Message from the King, signed with his own hand:
"I have received your Address praying that the Government of India (Adaptation of Acts of Parliament) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order, 1940, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament. I will comply with your request."

TRIBUTES TO THE LATE VISCOUNT CRAIGAVON, LORD TRYON AND VISCOUNT ROTHERMERE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, since the last occasion on which your Lordships' House met, we have sustained heavy losses to which, perhaps, it is right I should make a word of reference. Lord Craigavon has, for nearly twenty years, borne the burden attaching to the office of Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. Many of us were his colleagues in another place in the very stormy days before the last war, and when in 1921 the Government of Northern Ireland was inaugurated, and
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its first Parliament was opened by King George V. accompanied as he was by Her Majesty Queen Mary, it was naturally upon the shoulders of James Craig, as many of us will always think of him, that devolved the duty of being its first Prime Minister. He has died after working to the last for Northern Ireland and for the Empire. His health, many of us knew, had not been good for some time past, but in spite of that he gave himself constantly and without stint to the public service. He had, perhaps, in pre-eminent degree all the qualities of his own folk and, as is common with all statesmen who have to do with Ireland and with Irish affairs, Lord Craigavon was seldom outside the field of political controversy; but sharp as those controversies often were, no one I think has ever doubted either his ability or his rigid determination to pursue what he thought right. Nor could anyone ever challenge his sincerity and his personal integrity. I think he is a great loss to public life.
Then, my Lords, Lord Tryon, although so lately coming to your Lordships' House, was perhaps better known personally to some of those who sit here, as he had spent a long time in politics as a member of another place. He held important offices from time to time, and was unremitting in his attention to their faithful discharge. At the time of his death he had, as you know, returned to the office of Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions, an office which he had first held so long ago as April, 1920. He was a person of great natural abilities, but few people, I think, that I have ever known were less disposed to press those abilities upon the public gaze or attention. His willingness to take a subordinate post, where his great experience would be of undoubted service to the Government in dealing with problems of pensions in a time of war, was very characteristic of George Tryon, who truly cared very little what he did so long as what he did could be of service to the State. He will, I am quite certain, very long be missed and nowhere more sincerely than by his friends, and they are many, in your Lordships' House.
Only late yesterday we received news of the death of Lord Rothermere, another distinguished member of your Lordships' House. He was not indeed frequent either in attendance or in intervention

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in your Lordships' debates here, but he was a great figure in the world, and in particular in the circles of the Press. Many people may at times have disagreed with the manner in which he employed that great influence through the Press, but no one doubted that he was constantly moved by a love of country and by a desire to see his country strong and able to take the place to which, in his judgment, it was entitled in public affairs. He also died, as the other two Lords to whom I have referred had done, directly in the public service. I am sure your Lordships, by such reference as you may think it proper to make here to-day, would wish to convey to those on whom the loss of these noble Lords to whom I have referred falls most nearly, some expression of your sympathy at this time.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I am glad to associate myself with what the noble Viscount has said, particularly with regard to Lord Craigavon. He was known to many of us on opposite sides to him in politics for a great many years in the oilier House, but I do not think there was any one of us who did not appreciate his personal kindliness and intense sincerity when it was necessary for us, as it was many times, to have interviews and dealings with him. There was no more characteristic or outstanding and passionately sincere Ulsterman than he was. I well remember many a time Lord Carson paying very high tributes to his qualities and to his capacity for friendship in stormy times.
I was particularly glad the noble Viscount said what he did about Lord Tryon. I am quite sure there is no section of this House or of the other House that did not look upon him as a friend, and there must be many thousands of humble people, and people who suffered from sickness or distress, at one with us in paying tribute to his kindliness and help. I should think that, in common with every member of this House, it has been my duty from time to time to take cases to him for review or reconsideration, and I can say truly, as I am sure all my colleagues can, that he never failed to look into them with care, and very often he was able to bring great additional help to those whose cases were brought before him. I would like also to
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join with the noble Viscount in paying tribute to his largeness of mind, shown, for instance, in his willingness to take up a subordinate post of which he had had long experience in times past. I have nothing to add to what the noble Viscount said about Lord Rothermere except this, that in the sphere of public policy he has always been an outstanding advocate of a strong Air Force, and recent developments of that Force must have been a great satisfaction to him during his lifetime.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I am sure noble Lords who sit on these Benches desire to associate themselves with what has been so feelingly said with respect to the three eminent men who have passed away. Lord Craigavon, who rendered faithful service to the State, was well known to very many of us for many years, and whatever our divergences in politics may have been—and they were acute—we all had respect and liking for his kindly personality. Lord Tryon, who was the most recent addition to your Lordships' House, was at the same time most closely associated with its work and in most direct touch with very many of your Lordships. We all of us feel his death as a personal loss.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, as one of Lord Tryon's oldest friends in this House perhaps I might be allowed to say one word about the loss we have suffered by his death. I do not suppose there is anyone at present in your Lordships' House who has known him so long as I have, He was in my division at Eton and in my battalion in the Grenadiers, and for over fifty years he has been my personal friend. He was a hardworking, honest and kind-hearted man. His abilities were great, but he never pushed himself forward. Not only your Lordships' House but the country has suffered a considerable loss by his death.

RELATIONS WITH THE U.S.S.R.
LORD ADDISON LORD ADDISON had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government whether a statement can be made on our relations with the U.S.S.R.; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am not proposing to ask this question to-day.

DR. NEGRIN.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will state the circumstances under which Dr. Negrin has been asked to leave this country where he had sought asylum; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I put this question on the Paper in collaboration with some of my friends, and I am asking it only to give my noble friend the Foreign Secretary and Leader of the House a chance, which I believe he will take, of refuting certain statements made in the public Press. My noble friends and myself quite understand that there is no right of asylum in this country, but all your Lordships will support us in the statement that it is a cherished custom. The political refugee seeking asylum here must understand of course that he cannot take part in any political agitation against a country not at war with us. In case of any misapprehension abroad, especially where our customs are not always fully understood, I may say that we not only seek asylum for those who may be described as being on the Left; it is an impartial privilege which we grant. I may mention three cases of foreign subjects here to whom we have given hospitality: the Archduke Robert of Austria, Prince Henry of Prussia and Prince Starhemberg of Austria. I have not the honour of knowing Dr. Negrin and the information on which this question was based came from the Press and from members of my own Party. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his question and for the form in which he has asked it, and I do not think I shall have any great difficulty in setting his mind at rest in this matter. I can assure him at once that His Majesty's Government have no intention whatever of departing from the long-established practice of this country in the general treatment accorded to persons who seek refuge here and which, as he has pointed out to your Lordships, has been traditionally pursued without regard to the particular political opinions of those seeking to take advantage of it. I need scarcely say that no steps have been taken to oblige Dr. Negrin to leave this country against his will, nor is any such action in contemplation. I may, however, add that
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unscrupulous enemy propaganda has naturally exploited the fact of Dr. Negrin's continued residence in this country, and His Majesty's Government thought it well to establish contact with him in order to discuss the possibility of counteracting such propaganda. Dr. Negrin, I think I can say, fully appreciates the situation and the motives of His Majesty's Government. I have only to add that it is, of course, understood that while he is in residence in the United Kingdom Dr. Negrin will refrain from all political activities.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount the Leader of the House for his statement, and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

THE PIONEER CORPS.
LORD NEWTON LORD NEWTON asked His Majesty's Government whether the War Office or Home Office is responsible for the recruiting of the Pioneer Corps. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the question I have put on the Paper may appear rather an absurd one to your Lordships, but perhaps you will consider it not so absurd as it appears when I explain that the two Departments seem to be in considerable doubt as to what are their own powers. I have an unfortunate acquaintance, a very strong friend of this country, who, without any charge being made against him, was arrested when war started. After passing a good many months in internment he was examined by the so-called Advisory Committee, who at once found there was no charge whatever against him, that he was completely innocent, and who recommended his liberation. He was liberated after a considerable period and was employed for a time by the Ministry of Information. The Ministry of Information was about to send him abroad on some business or other when the Home Office intervened and arrested him again. That was some months ago and he has been waiting all this time endeavouring to get out without any success.
The difficulty in obtaining his liberation was, I thought, perhaps due to some defect of which I was unaware, but having made inquiries at the D.M.I., which is the body which deals with all

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suspicious persons, I learnt from them that not only was there nothing against him but that he was an exceedingly well-conducted person. In the circumstances I thought his liberation would come in due course; but it did not. Eventually, his service with the Ministry of Information having come to an end, he applied for permission to join the Pioneer Corps. That was a long time ago. As he was unable to obtain any reply I communicated with an influential friend of mine who is connected with the Home Office and asked him if he could expedite matters. My friend replied in extremely polite terms that he was very sorry but it was a matter for the War Office and he could not intervene. He gave me the address of the War Office official with whom I ought to communicate. This gentleman also is a friend of mine and he returned an equally polite reply that he was unable to do anything in the matter and that it was a matter which concerned the Home Office. If that kind of reply is all I can get, what must be the position of the unfortunate people concerned? It only goes to show that the two Departments do not know what their functions are, or did not know a short time ago.
I see my noble friend Lord Croft in his place and, as I have considerable confidence in his activity and also in his judgment, I should like to point out to him the intense absurdity of the position. Here you have the case of a man—and there must be many other cases like this—who is only too anxious to do something for this country. Everybody who knows him gives a good account of him, and obviously he ought to be released, but for some reason it cannot be done. Perhaps my noble friend will be able to explain. At the present moment, despite all the questions that have been asked, ail the complaints that have been made and all the promises that have been given, there are a number of men in this country whose loyalty to this country is beyond dispute but who yet see no prospect of getting out. I hope my noble friend will be able to give me some satisfactory answer on this point. I may say that I particularly dislike bringing up individual cases, and I have not given the name of the man in question, although I will give it to my noble friend in private. There is no other way that I am aware of by which I can call attention to the matter.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, as my noble friend has indicated, he did not inform me that he intended to raise the case of any particular individual and it is of course quite impossible for me to make any comment on that case to-day, but if he will bring to my attention the specific case to which he refers I will do everything in my power to clear up any difficulty which may have occurred as far as the War Office is concerned. With regard to the question on the Paper, the answer is that the War Office arranges all recruiting, including the reception of alien personnel.
LORD NEWTON: But I was given to understand by my informant at the War Office that the War Office was incapable of dealing with the case because it was a Home Office matter.
LORD CROFT: My Lords, with the leave of the House may I just reply to that? I gather from the noble Lord's remark that this alien is still interned. If that is so, clearly it has nothing to do with the War Office. Until he is passed out by the Committee to which my noble friend referred, the matter is still in the hands of the Home Office, but the moment the man is out, if he is physically and in other ways desirable as a recruit into the Pioneer Corps, I can assure my noble friend that we shall be only too glad to receive him.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, have not the Home Office just announced that they are prepared to release various categories of internees if they can be admitted into the Pioneer Corps? There is an obvious deadlock if the War Office say, "We are not going to admit anyone into the Pioneer Corps until the Home Office release him" and if the Home Office say, "We are not willing to release people for the Pioneer Corps until the War Office accept them."
LORD CROFT: My Lords, I will look into the point which the noble Viscount has made.

SCOTTISH FISHERIES ADVISORY COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ALNESS: My Lords, this is a short and simple measure, but, from the point of view of Scottish administration, not unimportant. I should like to explain its provisions quite briefly to your Lordships. By Section 3 of the Reorganisation of Offices (Scotland) Act, 1939, the Fishery Board for Scotland was abolished, and the functions which it had hitherto discharged were transferred by that Statute to the Secretary of State for Scotland. By the same Act an Advisory Council was set up in order to advise the Secretary of State with regard to the discharge of the duties which were transferred to him by that Act, and the number of members of the Council was fixed by the Act of Parliament at twelve. It was further provided that the members of the Council should be selected after consultation with the various bodies in Scotland who are interested in the fishing industry. That consultation duly took place. But it was found in practice that, having regard to the number of fishing interests in Scotland, they could not be adequately represented upon the Council so long as the statutory maximum of twelve was strictly adhered to. Accordingly this Bill proposes to abolish the statutory maximum of twelve members, and to leave the determination of the number of members to the Secretary of State to decide, as circumstances may dictate. Your Lordships will remember that the Secretary of State remains on the floor of another place responsible for this and for all his other actions.
I hope that this proposal will commend itself to your Lordships as being a reasonable one in the circumstances, particularly when regard is had to the difficult wartime conditions which affect the fishing industry, and having regard to the still more difficult conditions which it may be anticipated will affect the industry when war is over. I shall not detain your Lordships by another sentence except to say this, which may be of interest to my noble friends opposite. It is intended upon the enlarged Council to give adequate and full representation to labour interests. And I may add that the proposal which has been made to do so has the concurrence and endorsement of the Minister of Labour, who has been specifically consulted on the subject. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Alness.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friends have asked me to say a word on this Bill. We entirely approve of it, but it is not very clearly drafted. I hope that my noble and learned friend will forgive me for pointing that out. When I first read this Bill, it did not seem at all clear that the number would be extended, although I knew that that was needed. I thought at first that it was going to be reduced, in the same way as so many other war-time measures have, for convenience, reduced the number of members of statutory bodies. It was only upon inquiry that I found what the position was. It is not worth while making any alteration now, because the explanation which the noble and learned Lord has given will stand for reference in future; but I hope that in future a little more care will be used to clarify the drafting of these measures.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I beg to move that the noble Lords whose names are on the Paper be appointed to form the Committee of Selection.
Moved, That a Committee be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury,

M. Bath,

M. Crewe,

E. Stanhope,

E. Lucan,

E. Vane (M. Londonderry),

E. Plymouth,

V. Halifax,

V. Mersey,

V. Hailsham,

V. Samuel,

V. Caldecote,

V. Maugham,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Templemore,

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L. Newton,

L. Stanmore,

L. Strathcona and Mount Royal,

L. Redesdale,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Snell,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Addison.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move that the noble Lords whose names are on the Paper be appointed to be members of the Standing Orders Committee.
Moved, That a Standing Orders Committee be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Bath,

M. Crewe,

E. Leven and Melville,

E. Malmesbury,

E. Stanhope,

E. Lucan,

E. Vane (M. Londonderry),

E. Strafford,

V. Halifax,

V. Mersey,

V. Chelmsford,

V. Ullswater,

V. Samuel,

V. Caldecote,

V. Maugham,

L. Clinton,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Ellenborough,

L. Clanwilliam (E. Clanwilliam),

L. Templemore,

L. O'Hagan,

L. Newton,

L. Stanmore,

L. Loch,

L. Redesdale,

L. Merthyr,

L. Cozens-Hardy,

L. Askwith,

L. Carnock,

L. Clwyd,

L. Ruthven of Gowrie,

L. Meston,

L. Jessel,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

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L. Snell,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Milne,

L. Addison.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
All Petitions relating to the Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Committee unless otherwise ordered.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move that the noble Lords whose names are on the Paper be appointed to form the Special Orders Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all Special Orders of the present Session, and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D.Norfolk,

M. Salisbury,

M. Bath,

M. Crewe,

E.Shrewsbury,

E. Stanhope,

E. Lucan,

E. Strafford,

E. Plymouth,

E. Iveagh,

V. Halifax,

V. Mersey,

V. Hailsham,

V. Samuel,

V. Caldecote,

V. Maugham,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Templemore,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. O'Hagan,

L. Stanmore,

L. Redesdale,

L. Cozens-Hardy,

L. Askwith,

L. Meston,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Snell,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Denham,

L. Addison.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move that the noble Lords whose names are on the Paper be appointed to form the House of Lords Offices Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D.Norfolk,

M. Salisbury,

M. Bath,

M. Cholmondeley,

M. Zetland,

M. Crewe,

E. Shaftesbury,

E. Dartmouth,

E. Stanhope,

E. Ilchester,

E. De La Warr,

E. Clarendon,

E. Lucan,

E. Bradford,

E. Vane (M. Londonderry),

E. Strafford,

E. Ancaster,

E. Cromer,

E. Plymouth,

E. Iveagh,

E. Midleton,

E. Baldwin of Bewdley,

E. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Halifax,

V. Allendale,

V. Mersey,

V. FitzAlan of Derwent,

V. Ullswater,

V. Hailsham,

V. Samuel,

V. Caldecote,

V. Maugham,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Templemore,

L. Hylton,

L. Newton,

L. Stanmore,

L. Redesdale,

L. Meston,

L. Jessel,

L. Atkin,

L. Amulree,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Macmillan,

L. Snell,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

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L. Addison.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Leave given to the Committee to report from time to time.

INDIA AND BURMA ORERS COMMITTEE.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, so far as the Motion which I have now to move is concerned; for the appointment of an India and Burma Orders Committee, your Lordships will see that a very important name has been omitted from the Paper, and the Committee would be rather like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark if the name of my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire were not included. I therefore move that the noble Lords whose names are on the Paper, together with the Duke of Devonshire, be appointed to form the India and Burma Orders Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all drafts of Orders laid before Parliament under Section 309 of the Government of India Act, 1935, or Section 157 of the Government of Burma Act, 1935, in the present Session; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Devonshire,

M. Zetland,

V. Goschen,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Stanmore,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, in moving the appointment of the Select Committee on the procedure of the House I should like to say that, as your Lordships are aware, my noble friend Lord Stanmore is not at the present moment able to attend to his duties. I therefore move that the noble Lords whose names are on the Paper, with the substitution of the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Mersey, for that of Lord Stanmore, be appointed to form this Committee.
Moved That a Select Committee be appointed to consider whether alterations in the procedure of this House are advisable in the existing circumstances, and, if so, whether the Standing Orders do or do not require to be altered for that purpose, and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Select Committee:

M. Salisbury,

M. Crewe,

E. Lucan,

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Halifax,

V. Mersey,

V. Ullswater,

L. Templemore,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Denman,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

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L. Snell,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Addison.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SECRET SESSION.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that the further sitting of the House this day be secret.
Moved, That the further sitting of the House this day be secret.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.
The Official Reporter then withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House adjourned.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Act to the

Borough of Grantham;

County Borough of Bournemouth;

City of Norwich;

County Borough of Doncaster;

Urban District of Newmarket;

Urban District of Sutton-in-Ashfield (West Ward);

County Borough of Grimsby;

Borough of Ryde;

Rural District of Wayland (Parish of Attleborough):

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

HAYWARDS HEATH GAS ORDER, 1940.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Haywards Heath District Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WESSEX (NORTH BASINGSTOKE) ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1940.
Special Order in respect of parts of the Rural Districts of Basingstoke and Kings-clere and Whitchurch in the county of Southampton:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the special Orders Committee.