Sitting of 12 June 1940

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  CHINA (CUSTOMS ADMINISTRATION).
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement on the present position of the Chinese customs administration, including the lighthouse department, the Debt Commission and the harbour department; and whether the organisations have been able to resist foreign interference?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): I am glad to say that, despite obvious difficulties during the past three years, this international service has been able to continue to function, under the able administration of the Inspector-General, Sir Frederick Maze. The lighthouse and harbour departments, which have an important bearing on foreign shipping, are under the technical control of the coast inspector. The present holder of that post is an American citizen, recently appointed by the Inspector-General, and under his administrative control. The International Bankers Commission, to which my hon. and gallant Friend presumably refers, ceased many years ago to exercise effective control over the Customs revenue.
  Sir A. Knox: Does the Minister realise that these organisations are the only foundation on which trade, shipping and finance rest in China, and that, if any other foreign Power gets hold of them, British interests will be irretrievably destroyed?
  Mr. Butler: The important international character of these organisations is fully appreciated. I am sure that my hon. and gallant Friend has done a service by drawing attention to their importance.

  MAJOR QUISLING.
  Mr. Manderasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reasons for, and the date on which Major Quisling was made a Commander of the Order of the British' Empire, and whether he still remains a member?
  Mr. Butler: Captain Vidkun Quisling was appointed to be an honorary Commander of the Order of the British Empire on 22nd November, 1929, in recognition of services rendered to His Majesty's Government in connection with the protection of British interests in the Soviet Union while he was serving on the staff of the Norwegian Legation in Moscow. He is no longer a member of the Order.
  Mr. Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman say when this notorious traitor to his own country and to the Allied cause was removed from the Order?
  Mr. Butler: Very recently.
  Mr. Silverman: What service did he render to this country?
  Mr. Woodburn: Is the Minister aware that, as far back as 1934, it was publicly stated and verified that Major Quisling was already an agent of the German Government?
  Mr. McGovern: Was he decorated in 1929 at the order of the Labour Government, which was in Office at that time?
  Mr. Butler: If the hon. Member will refer to the date, 22nd November, he will be able to draw his own conclusions.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember whether or not the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) was then a member of the Labour party?
  Mr. McGovern: Is the hon. Member aware that that is quite true, and that I have since paid the penalty for my crime?

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    BOMBING OPERATIONS.
    Mr. Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will see that whatever other calls there may be on the Royal Air Force the policy of bombing military objectives in Germany is continued

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    and increased, on the principle that every bomb that falls in Germany itself is worth two bombs that fall in German occupied territory?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): My hon. Friend will not expect me to say more than that all relevant factors are taken into consideration in determining operations of the Royal Air Force, and in the selection of bombing objectives.

    DECORATIONS AND AWARDS.
    Mr. Ammonasked the Secretary of State for Air when he proposes to abolish the system of class distinction of awards, under which non-commissioned ranks receive the Distinguished Flying Medal while commissioned officers received the Distinguished Flying Cross for services of equal risk and bravery performed under similar conditions?
    Captain Balfour: I regret that pressure of more urgent affairs during the last few weeks has delayed progress on this matter. The hon. Member may rest assured that it has not been overlooked and will be given further attention as soon as possible.
    Mr. Ammon: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that I did draw attention to this point some time ago, and may I ask whether it is intended to side-track the matter?
    Captain Balfour: No, Sir, there is no intention to try to side-track it at all. All three Services have been working under exceptional strain during the past few weeks, and this matter is not one on which it would be fair or reasonable for one Service to take a snap decision. We should get the co-ordinated and agreed decision of the three Services.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

    TURKEY (BRITISH NEWSPAPER DELIVERIES).
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that, owing to the belated, irregular and inadequate deliveries of British newspapers and periodicals in Turkey, there is no satisfactory means in that country of counter acting the German newspapers and periodicals which are circulating freely;
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    and whether he will endeavour to remedy this state of affairs?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Duff Cooper): I would gladly do anything in my power to improve communications with Turkey, but, as my hon. Friend will understand, the difficulties are very great, and have recently increased.

    BROADCASTING.
    Sir Irving Alberyasked the Minister of Information, in view of the importance of the national broadcasting services in time of war, whether he will take steps to acquire every necessary measure of control over news services and propaganda so as to be fully responsible to this House for the same?
    Mr. Cooper: I am satisfied that the willingness and efficiency with which the B.B.C. carry out my directions, whether general or particular, on all matters considered to be in the national interest, give me such control as is necessary over news and propaganda in time of war.
    Sir I. Albery: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his statement in this House last night, and his recent broadcast, have caused considerable anxiety?
    Captain Vyvyan Adams: And much approval, too.

    EMPIRE NEWS (CENSORSHIP).
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Information whether he will explain why quotations from a speech by the president of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, and also passages from a book entitled "Tory, M.P.," which appeared in a news service issued to the Empire by General News Service, were deleted, particularly in view of the fact that the same issue contained a quotation from a speech of his, praising the virtue of free speech?
    Mr. Cooper: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given yesterday, 11th June, to the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple (Sir R. Acland).
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer does not deal with the point at all, and will he say why criticism of the late Government was censored, particularly in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman owes his position to criticism of that Government?
    Mr. Cooper: Criticism of the efforts that we are making in the war at the present time which is likely to encourage our opponents and discourage our friends should, in my opinion, be censored, and that one was rightly censored.
    Mr. Shinwell: Why was a reference to the late Government as being partly responsible for a lack of equipment a matter for censorship, and why should reference to the book "Tory M.P." come under the censorship?
    Mr. Cooper: I am not going to repeat the words that were censored and give them just that publicity which those who used them no doubt desired that they should have; but, in my opinion and in the opinion of my advisers, with which I entirely agree, those words were calculated to discourage our friends throughout the world and to encourage our enemies.
    Mr. Shinwell: On a point of Order. In view of the highly unsatisfactory nature of the reply I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter at the first opportunity.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS LIBRARY (NEWSPAPERS).
    Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the Minister of Information whether he will arrange to have copies of all papers such as the "Daily Worker," "Action," etc., which are still allowed to be published in this country, but which may not be sent abroad, placed in the Library, in order that hon. Members may have first-hand information of any subversive or anti-war movements?
    Mr. Cooper: Yes, Sir.
    Sir J. Lucas: Thank you, Sir.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Why not stop "Action"?

    POST OFFICES (EMERGENCY OPENING).
    Mr. Walkdenasked the Postmaster-General whether he will arrange to give local postmasters and sub-postmasters reasonable discretion in regard to the opening of post offices in times of emergency or special difficulty, such as arose on the arrival home of the British Expeditionary Force, when postal, telegraph and telephone facilities would not ordinarily be available?
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison): During the period of the arrival home of the British Expeditionary Force, the head postmasters of a number of the towns affected, from which I have had reports, satisfactorily exercised their discretion, not only in regard to opening offices under their control during exceptional hours where this appeared to be necessary, but also in furnishing special facilities by other means. I am, however, considering the desirability of issuing further instructions.
    Mr. Walkden: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the instructions he has referred to were issued to sub-post offices as well as to principal post offices; and, if not, why not?
    Mr. Morrison: Orders for exceptional opening of post offices and other exceptional facilities were granted generally to the postmaster in charge of the district.
    Mr. Walkden: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that main post offices are few in number compared with sub-post offices, which are numerous and are generally used? Were any instructions issued to sub-post offices?
    Mr. Morrison: The hon. Member must remember that the men were, for the most part, disembarked at places where a postmaster was in charge.

  NIGERIA.

    RAILWAY STAFF UNION.
    11. Mr. Sorensenasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has considered the memorandum from the Nigerian Railway African Staff Union and the plea for the redress of certain grievances; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): A copy of a petition which the Nigerian Railway African Staff Union addressed to the Nigerian Government, on the subject of a proposal to institute a new Railway Servants' Provident Fund, has been received in the Colonial Office. The representations made in this petition are being considered, in consultation with the Governor, but the matter is a complicated one involving difficult technical

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    questions and I will communicate with my hon. Friend when a decision is reached.

    EDUCATION.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will pay particular attention to the extension of education in Nigeria; what action he proposes to take to meet the particular grievances among the teachers in Nigeria; and whether he proposes to.establish compulsory education in that Colony?
    Mr. George Hall: Yes, Sir. The grievances of mission teachers concerning their conditions of service are receiving active and sympathetic consideration by the Government of Nigeria, with a view to effecting some improvement. As regards the last part of the Question, my hon. Friend is aware of the difficulties of introducing compulsory education in Nigeria. When, however, funds become available under the new Colonial Development Act, an extension of education facilities will be undertaken as rapidly as circumstances permit.
    Mr. Sorensen: Has the number of children receiving education grown in recent years or diminished?
    Mr. Hall: If my hon. Friend will put that Question on the Paper I will endeavour to give him the answer.

  TRANSPORT.

    RAILWAY PLATFORMS (EXTENSION).
    Mr. Gledhillasked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider with the Railway Executive Committee the need for the lengthening of main-line plat forms so as to save the time now wasted by the necessity for two stops at most stations?
    The Minister of Transport (Sir John Reith): Double stops, due to insufficient length of platforms, are not required at the more important stations. In existing circumstances, I do not think the expenditure of time and material involved to meet what is, after all, a temporary need, would be justified.
    Mr. Gledhill: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this double stopping is taking place on many of the main lines, and that it causes great waste of time and fuel?
    Mr. Watkins: If the Minister does give consideration to this matter, will he bear in mind the enormous strain under which railway staffs are working at the present time?

    FIRST-CLASS RAILWAY COMPARTMENTS.
    Mr. Butcherasked the Minister of Transport whether, to secure the maximum use of all accommodation, he will now withdraw first-class travelling facilities?
    Sir J. Reith: I am advised by the Railway Executive Committee that first-class accommodation is now being used to such an extent that its withdrawal would not appreciably increase the accommodation available for passengers as a whole.

    RAILWAY STATION EXITS.
    Mr. Butcherasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that all entrance to, and egress from, many passenger railway stations is controlled by a passimeter, allowing only one person at a time to pass and the barrier of which is mechanically operated; and whether he will require alternative means of exit to be provided and clearly marked, so that in the event of an air raid passengers and staff may leave rapidly without congestion or panic?
    Sir J. Reith: Alternative means of exit are already available at those railway stations where entrance and egress are controlled by passimeters, and in case of emergency passengers would be directed thereto.
    Mr. Butcher: Will the Minister take steps to see that this alternative means of exit is clearly marked?
    Sir J. Reith: Yes, Sir.

    LOOP-LINE, LLANHILLETH.
    Mr. Daggarasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that a large number of men resident in the area between Brynmawr and Crumlin, Monmouthshire, are obliged to travel a distance of 15 to 20 miles by omnibus, the cost of which absorbs almost a fourth of each man's wages; and whether he will take steps to re-open the loop-line at Llanhilleth which will reduce the time required to reach the place of employment, place the men nearer the factory, effect a reduction in the supply of petrol and afford a much more economical, comfortable, convenient and expeditious means of transport?
    Sir J. Reith: The line to which my hon. Friend refers is equipped only for minerals and has never been used for passenger traffic. Much labour and material would be required to equip it for passenger use. Inquiries made show that the present cost of travel is not so high as suggested, and that there would be no appreciable saving in cost or time if the loop-line were available.
    Mr. Daggar: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that in utilising the existing bus services men have to walk two miles in order to reach their places of employment, and that the reopening of the loop-line would avoid that delay?
    Sir J. Reith: It is not a case of reopening the loop-line. In fact, that line has not hitherto been used for passenger traffic. The Regional Transport Commissioner is in touch with local representatives of the Ministry of Labour on the question of the bus services in the district mentioned.
    Mr. Daggar: Does that answer imply that an attempt will be made to reduce the charges now made for travelling facilities?
    Miss Rathbone: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it preferable that questions giving exact geographical details of this sort in regard to the access to factories should be dealt with in private rather than in public?
    Sir J. Reith: I have a detailed map and I will be glad to discuss with the hon. Member alternative methods of solving the problem if he will come and see me afterwards.

    EDUCATION (HAYTON AND EDINGLY).
    Mr. Charles Brownasked the President of the Board of Education why he has refused permission to the Nottingham County Education Committee to close the Church of England elementary school at Hayton in North Nottinghamshire, which is attended by 22 children, when Clarborough school, less than a mile away, could accommodate the children from Hayton?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Ede): Permission has not been refused. A proposal to
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    close the school was made by the local education authority four years ago, and was opposed by the managers. The Board asked the authority to reconsider the proposal in the light of comments on the nature of the alternative accommodation at Clarborough School and on possible dangers from traffic to the Hayton children. The authority's observations on these points were not submitted and the proposal to close the school accordingly lapsed.
    Mr. C. Brownasked the President of the Board of Education why he has refused permission to the Nottingham County Education Committee to close the Church of England school at Edingly, Nottinghamshire, after all the parties concerned had agreed to the desirability of closing this small school, and when other accommodation for the children was available in the vicinity?
    Mr. Ede: Permission to close the Edingley School has not been refused, but the authority were invited to consider the desirability of continuing to maintain the school for the present in order to avoid the necessity for long journeys by young children. The authority have decided not to proceed at the present time with their proposal.
    Mr. Brown: Is the hon. Member aware that the Nottinghamshire Education Committee are greatly concerned about the policy of the Board in regard to these matters, and, having regard to the present need for economy and the coming shortage of teachers, cannot these questions be reconsidered?
    Mr. Ede: The Board are perfectly willing to reconsider on its merits any fresh application that is made by an education authority.

    AGRICULTURE (EMERGENCY POWERS ACT).
    Mr. Lunnasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will give an assurance that the Government intend to put into operation the Emergency Powers Act in all cases where owners or tenants of good land suitable for growing food, not derelict land, are unable or unwilling to put it into use to grow food for the people?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. T. Williams): The powers already entrusted to my right hon. Friend under the Defence (General) Regulations and which have been delegated to county war agricultural executive committees are ample for the purpose of compelling occupiers of agricultural land to put it to the best possible use for the production of foodstuffs, and he proposes to exercise these powers to the full. If my hon. Friend is referring to land which is not strictly agricultural land, e.g., parks which are not de-rated, etc., my right hon. Friend has under consideration the taking of further powers in regard to such land.
    Mr. Lunn: Is that being carried out to-day through the county war agricultural committees, and are they aware of these powers?
    Mr. Williams: The county war agricultural committees are aware of the powers in their hands and it is the wish of my right hon. Friend that they should exercise all the powers in their possession.

    CHILDREN (EVACUATION TO DOMINIONS).
    Mr. Parkerasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is now in a position to announce the attitude of His Majesty's Government to the offers of the Dominion Governments for the reception and care of child evacuees for the duration of the war?
    Mr. Robert Gibsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to evacuating children from the United Kingdom to Canada and to Australia?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Shakespeare): Yes Sir. An inter-departmental committee has been appointed under my Chairmanship to consider the offers which have been received from the Dominions for the reception and care of children from this country for the period of the war. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of
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    Health are also members of this committee. The committee's terms of reference are
    "to consider offers received from overseas to house and care for children, accompanied or unaccompanied, from the European war zone, who are residing in Great Britain, including children orphaned by the war, and to make recommendations thereon."
    The committee has already held a number of meetings. We are in close touch with the Dominion Governments, and I should like to take this opportunity of expressing the thanks of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom for this further demonstration of co-operation by the countries of the British Commonwealth in our war effort by offering to receive and care for a number of children for the duration of the war in homes remote from the war zone.
    His Majesty's Government are confident that it should be possible to devise a practical scheme, and the most urgent consideration is being given by the committee to the whole question. We have received a number of inquiries from parents in this country, but it will be appreciated that a scheme of this nature raises a large number of intricate problems on which agreement with the Dominion Governments will be necessary. As soon as practical arrangements have been devised and agreed an announcement will be made, giving an address to which applications or inquiries can be sent.
    Mr. Thorne: I take it that at the same time the Minister will consider how the children are to be got over in safety?
    Mr. Shakespeare: That is the crux of the whole matter.
    Mr. Cocks: In view of the fact that the preliminary survey shows that there are 100,000 homes in Canada for receiving children and that there is a plan in Australia for receiving 6o,ooo, will the hon. Gentleman get on with the work as quickly as possible?
    Mr. Shakespeare: We are treating this as a problem of the utmost urgency.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Will the children be allowed to go pending the receipt of the report?
    Mr. Shakespeare: They will go as far as they can under the present Regulations, but it is a question of getting facilities.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Will the children whose parents can afford to pay be allowed to go?
    Mr. Shakespeare: Subject to certain considerations.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will consideration be given to the possibility of giving financial assistance to parents in this country with friends or relations in the Dominions who would be willing to accept children? Does the Minister realise that three years ago this proposal was put forward, and is it not a pity that it has not yet been adopted?
    Mr. Shakespeare: On the last point, although the proposal was put forward three years ago, it is not yet clear that there is any scheme now in existence in the Dominions. It is our problem to get in touch with the Dominion Governments to devise a practical scheme. On the first point, I agree that the principle of nomination, by which a child in this country can go to a home of a friend or relative in the Dominions, is a principle on which good administration can be founded.
    Mr. T. Smith: Will organisations like the council of Fairbridge Farm School be consulted? I am certain that they can give valuable advice.
    Mr. Shakespeare: My committee is anxious to consult every organisation that has knowledge of emigration and evacuation questions.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Can the hon. Gentleman say how many times the committee has met and whether action has yet been taken?
    Mr. Shakespeare: We have met twice. We are meeting this afternoon and we are in daily session; and over and above that, work is proceeding on these problems.

    INTERNEE AND PRISONER OF WAR CAMPS.
    Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will prohibit the use of wireless-receiving sets in camps occupied by aliens or enemy prisoners, in view of the fact that such sets could be used to receive information, and instructions broadcast, either in code or in plain language, during transmissions from enemy radio stations?
    The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Richard Law): Wireless sets in alien and prisoner of war camps are prohibited.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will issue instructions that internees shall be able to communicate with their relatives or legitimate friends within 24 hours of internment; whether he has now inquired into the cause of the undue delay in permitting such communications; whether he is aware that internees who have had experience of Nazi concentration camps, prisons, or maltreatment, appreciate the more humane treatment they are now receiving; and whether, by maintaining this superior British tradition and practice, he will counteract the false assumption of a section of public opinion that indiscriminate hostility to aliens and refugees is a patriotic necessity?
    Mr. Law: As was indicated by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, in answer to Questions on this subject on Thursday last, the arrest at one time and at short notice of a large number of persons has made it impossible to arrange for immediate postal facilities, and, until the internees can be sent to permanent camps, I fear that cases of delay are inevitable. But every effort is being made to avoid any unnecessary hardship in this or any other respect.
    Mr. Sorensen: Can these internees now communicate with their friends within a reasonable time at least after being interned?
    Mr. Law: Every effort is being made to expedite such communications.
    Mr. Stokes: Would it not be possible to issue to all these internees a standard postcard, as was done in the last war, which they can send to their relatives immediately upon internment, so that their relatives may know that they are all right?
    Mr. Law: I will pass that suggestion on to my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. G. Strauss: Is the hon. Member aware that there was a standing prohibition against internees communicating with anybody outside?
    Mr. Law: However that may be, there is no such prohibition now.

    WOMEN'S AUXILIARY SERVICE.
    Mr. Glenvil Hallasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it is the intention of the Government to take over the control of the Women's Auxiliary Service?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): The organisation calling itself the "Women's Auxiliary Service" is an entirely unofficial body which has no connection with any Government service, and my right hon. Friend knows of no suggestion that the Government should take any responsibility for it or utilise its services in any way.
    Mr. Hall: Is the hon. Member aware that I am not making any suggestion of that kind? I am asking whether the Government will take control of the organisation, in view of the fact that it is controlled by Miss Mary Allen, who masquerades in semi-masculine attire and is a known Fascist?
    Mr. Peake: The lady whom the hon. Member has mentioned has directed attention to herself in various ways, and she has not escaped the eye of the authorities. That is the reason for the answer I have given, that the Government have no intention of taking over this Women's Auxiliary Service.
    Mr. Hall: Will they close the organisation down?
    Mr. Peake: It is extremely doubtful whether this so-called organisation has any corporate existence at the present time.
    Sir William Davison: Is it not very undesirable in times such as these that any unauthorised body should be allowed to proceed?
    Mr. Peake: My information is that this organisation is not proceeding at the present time.
    Sir W. Davison: Ought it not to be closed down, because it is likely to cause confusion?

    BANK OF ENGLAND.
    Mr. Glenvil Hallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he proposes to take to ensure that the Bank of England shall in future publish a
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    balance sheet similar in form to that obligatory on the joint stock banks, now that he has made it clear that this bank will be subject to the 100 per cent. Excess Profits Tax?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): My right hon. Friend sees no reason for taking any steps on the lines suggested in the Question. The statutory form of the balance sheet published weekly by the Bank of England is essentially similar to that of the half-yearly balance sheets which the joint stock banks are required to publish.
    Mr. Stokes: Is not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Bank of England are entitled to assess their own profits and are not subject to the Inland Revenue authorities, as private individuals and joint stock companies are?
    Captain Crookshank: That is an entirely different Question, which, incidentally, the hon. Gentleman has on the Paper for to-morrow.
    Mr. Stokes: Will you answer it to-morrow?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall:If, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman states, the Bank of England does publish a balance sheet comparable to that of the joint stock banks—which many doubt—why should the Treasury refuse to make them publish it in the way that other banks have to do, yearly or half-yearly?
    Captain Crookshank: They are doing it weekly; and the facts are as stated in my reply.

    FINANCE BILL (PRINTING).
    Sir W. Davisonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, by reason of the great length of the Finance Bill, running into 105 pages, he will consider, both for the convenience of the public and having regard to the desirability of saving paper, having the Bill, when it becomes an Act, printed in five separate parts, which could be purchased separately, as large numbers of persons are only particularly interested in certain parts of the Measure?
    Captain Crookshank: I doubt whether my hon. Friend's suggestion would be for the general convenience; but, in any case, the Act of Parliament would have to be

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    printed as a whole, and it is considered that further prints of the Act and Schedules in separate parts would add to the costs of production, without the prospect of any material saving in paper.
    Sir W. Davison: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that some time ago the Official Report was printed in sections, so that Members interested in certain parts need not have the whole; and is he aware that Income Tax takes up 14 pages of the Finance Bill, and that people interested in Income Tax have, to take another 91 pages?
    Mr. Denman: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend realise that the Excess Profits Tax proposals, as printed, are legislation by reference in its most incomprehensible form, and that the E.P.T. section consolidated and printed as a whole would be of great value?
    Captain Crookshank: That is quite another question. As I have explained, we have to publish the Act, anyhow; and if we then published separate bits of it we should use up a great deal more paper than we do.

    ARMED FORCES (LABOUR, RELEASE).
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour whether he can make a statement on the matters raised with his Department by the hon. Member for Stoke, dealing with the release and transfer of men serving in the armed Forces?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Assheton): Since the outbreak of war, more than 30,000 men have been released from the Services for civil employment. Further releases are now being arranged. With regard to the transfer of men serving in the armed Forces, eight associations of skilled workmen have supplied valuable information regarding members now serving with the Forces. This information has been of material assistance in enabling the Services to ensure that skilled men are employed in Service trades where full use will be made of their skill. This process of transfer has already been going on for several months, and appropriate action in outstanding cases continues to be taken.

    EVACUATION FROM DUNKIRK (MEDAL).
    Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Prime Minister whether a record is being kept of the names of those who served in the evacuation of Dunkirk, apart from those in the three Services, and particularly of the men on board the small ships of our Merchant Navy; and whether it is intended that a commemorative medal, or other token of recognition, is to be given to those who took part in this episode?
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): I am informed that a record has been kept of all those who were regularly entered for this operation. It has not, however, been possible to keep a complete record of the many names of those who so gallantly gave their services independently of those entered. In reply to the last part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. E. Smith).
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: In view of the special character of the work done by these men and of the fact that they were volunteers, in a sphere of work to which many of them were not accustomed, would my right hon. Friend consider issuing in the future some kind of recognition, either in the form of a medal or of something else?
    Mr. E. Smith: When considering this Question, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the men who have come home speak in the highest possible terms of the bargemen, fishermen and others who worked so strenuously, without any regard for their own lives, and who, as a result, were largely instrumental in saving many thousands of lives?
    Mr. Attlee: Certainly, that will be borne in mind.

    HOME DEFENCE.
    Mr. Cocksasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the number of authorities who are concerned with Home Defence, he will consider appointing a Minister, who might be styled Deputy to the Prime Minister, to take charge of the whole problem of Home Defence, with the necessary executive powers, including the control of civil forces and authorities?
    Mr. Attlee: If a separate Minister were appointed for Home Defence there would

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    be overlapping between his functions and those of the Service and other Ministers. I appreciate, however, the great importance of ensuring the close co-ordination of Home Defence activities, and arrangements have in fact been made which, in my opinion, will satisfactorily secure this object.
    Mr. Cocks: In view of the fact that five different Departments—the Home Office, the Ministry of Health and the three Service Departments—are involved in Home Defence, who is to give decisions in cases where more than one of the Departments is involved, unless the country is under martial law?
    Mr. Attlee: It is rather difficult to distinguish sometimes between Home Defence and other questions.
    Mr. Stokes: Is the Minister aware that, in fact, the military pay little or no attention to the representations made to them by the Local Defence Volunteer Force, and that there has been no response at all to such representations in many parts of the country?
    Mr. Attlee: That is an entirely different question. Perhaps the hon. Member will raise it at the appropriate time?
    Sir A. Knox: Will the right hon. Gentleman give this matter serious consideration, as the idea is a very valuable one, and something of the sort is absolutely necessary?
    Mr. Attlee: The matter is under constant and urgent attention.

    GOVERNMENT ADVISERS.
    Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether the offices of chief diplomatic, economic and industrial advisers to the Government still exist, and by whom they are held?
    Mr. Attlee: The post of Chief Diplomatic Adviser is held by the right hon. Sir Robert Vansittart; that of Chief Economic Adviser continues to be held by Sir Frederick Leith-Ross, who is, however, seconded for duty as Director-General of the Ministry of Economic Warfare; the post of Chief Industrial Adviser no longer exists.
    Mr. Mander: Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that these advisers will be duly consulted when it is felt that their services are required?
    Mr. Attlee: Certainly, Sir.,

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

    SUBVERSIVE PROPAGANDA (NEWSPRINT).
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Supply whether, having regard to the shortage of paper, he will consider whether in future any more paper should be provided for the publication of those newspapers the contents of which are so contrary to the public interest that the Minister of Information has by order prohibited their being sent to any destination outside the United Kingdom?
    The Minister of Supply (Mr. Herbert Morrison): As my predecessor informed the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. R. Robinson) on 8th May, the permitting or prevention of such publications as are referred to is not a matter for my Department.

    TIMBER CONTROL.
    Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Supply if he will exercise his powers to declare all stocks of timber the property of the State so as to guarantee timber for those contractors engaged on Government work?
    Mr. H. Morrison: The arrangements for the control and allocation of timber are designed to ensure supplies for Government contracts and other essential work, and I should not hesitate to requisition, if necessary. I shall be glad to look into any case in which contractors engaged on Government work cannot obtain timber if my hon. Friend will send me particulars.
    Mr. Leonard: Is the Minister aware that there is widespread experience which shows that when Government contractors, even in possession of licences, ask the price of timber, they are even refused a quotation?
    Mr. Morrison: I would be very glad to go into such cases if my hon. Friend would be good enough to send them to me.
    Mr. Messer: Has the Minister received the report of the deputation which waited on the Parliamentary Secretary on the subject?
    Mr. Leonard: That is the subject of my third Question to the Minister of Supply.
    Mr. Morrison: The answer to the hon. Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer) is "Yes, Sir."
    Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Supply why the Timber Control Board make it a condition for release of timber that purchase must be made through merchants or brokers, who are mainly intermediaries and handle no stock; and what percentage is specified for such brokers?
    Mr. Morrison: Up to the present purchases have been mainly from the stocks owned and held by the timber merchants. It is proposed that the distribution of the national stock imported by my Department should also be made through the merchants, who already have an organisation adapted to that purpose. It will make for efficiency and economy to use this organisation rather than to set up a special organisation for the purpose. After careful consideration the remuneration of the merchants for distributing the Department's stocks has been fixed at the following rates, which will be reconsidered in the light of experience at the end of the year: on softwoods, 10 per cent.; hardwoods, 15 per cent.; plywood, 12½per cent.; pitwood, 7½ per cent.
    Mr. Leonard: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider these matters again, and will he bear in mind that most of these entries are found to be nothing but book-keeping entries and that they are not in possession of any timber at all; and why should they be allowed to function in that way?
    Mr. Morrison: I have looked into the position in the light of my hon. Friend's Question, and I am advised that they have a real function, and a real work to do. The question I have to consider is whether it is better to deal with the existing organisation or proceed to set up a new one, and on balance I have come to the conclusion that it would not be either expeditious or expedient to set up a new organisation.
    Mr. Leonard: Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that it is not necessary to set up a new organisation in view of the fact that persons requiring timber could give an order to those in possession of it?
    Mr. Morrison: I am not clear about that.
    Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Supply whether he has now considered the representations made to him by wood-working firms showing the obstacles to production in the present licensing system; and what action he proposes to take?
    Mr. Morrison: The instances recently submitted by the Timber Supplies Committee of the Furniture Trade of difficulties in obtaining supplies or delays caused by the licensing procedure are being fully investigated, and any steps that may be desirable and possible will be taken without delay. I am afraid, however, that in general the situation is governed by the shortage of timber and the necessity of strictly limiting its use to the more essential purposes.
    Mr. Leonard: While appreciating the point made by the right hon. Gentleman, has his investigation up to the present time not enabled him to accept the prevailing practices to be actual fraud and nothing else?
    Mr. Woodburn: May I ask the Minister whether he will give urgent consideration to the report of the Select Committee which was published last Thursday dealing with the whole question of timber control?
    Mr. Morrison: I certainly will give that report proper consideration.

    FACTORIES (MEDICAL SERVICES).
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Minister of Supply whether provision is being made for a special medical service at each factory in order to enable production to be maintained without interruption from breakdown and overstrain during the war-time speed-up?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Appropriate arrangements for medical services have been made at all Royal Ordnance Factories. If my hon. Friend requires information about other factories he should get in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service.

    SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Supply the names of the scientists in charge of each subject in the scientific

    1263
    research branch of his Department, together with their qualifications?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I am afraid that I could not give.the desired information without giving an indication of the lines of the war-time research programme. My hon. Friend will not expect me to do this.
    Mr. Stokes: Will the Minister at least assure the House that these positions are held by people of first-class scientific ability and not occupied by second-raters?
    Mr. Morrison: As far as I know, that is so, but I think that the hon. Member and the House will agree that it would be most unwise to give this list.

    BRITISH METAL CORPORATION.
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Supply how the fee of £220,750, payable to the British Metal Corporation for the first year's management for running non-ferrous metal control was arrived at; and what is the fee payable for the second year?
    Mr. H. Morrison: The fee payable to the British Metal Corporation is made up in the main of an allowance for the cost of staff and expenses incurred by the company, but includes a sum for the services of the company in putting their organisation and certain of their revenues at the disposal of the Ministry. The fee payable after the first year is £221,400.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Does my right hon. Friend consider that this figure is a proper one, as it seems an enormous sum to me?
    Mr. Morrison: The hon. Member will appreciate that this was an agreement that was made before I went to the Ministry, and is running, and I cannot very well interfere with it, at any rate at this stage, and I am advised by officers of the Department who considered the matter very carefully that, in their judgment, it was a reasonable arrangement and in the public interest.
    Mr. Stokes: Arising out of the original answer—
    Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. Stokes: On a point of Order. I desire to ask a Supplementary Question, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: Members are only allowed each to ask three Questions. That does
    1264
    not mean that Members can ask unlimited Supplementary Questions.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask the Minister whether, in his original reply—
    Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. Stokes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    WASTE (SALVAGE).
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Minister of Supply whether a decision has yet been reached on the compulsory appointment of salvage officers for each local authority area?
    Mr. H. Morrison: The question as to what compulsory steps should be taken, such as that suggested by my hon. and learned Friend, is under close consideration in consultation with the committee which I appointed recently. I am also conferring on the subject with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
    Mr. Lyons: In view of the difficulty which is experienced by householders all over the country to dispose of their own salvage in the national interest, can the Minister tell me whether next week he will be able to give a definite answer or not.
    Mr. Morrison: I cannot say, Sir. The matter is actively under consideration.

    TANK BOARD.
    Mr. Cocksasked the Minister of Supply whether Sir Alexander Roger and his colleagues on the Tank Board will be given executive powers?
    Mr. H. Morrison: No, Sir.
    Mr. Cocks: Does the Minister realise the urgency of cutting through red-tape in this important matter, and will he say what is the position now of the present Director of Tank Production?
    Mr. Morrison: That matter is actively under consideration and I am sure my hon. Friend will acquit me of any unwillingness to cut through red-tape whenever necessary, and I can assure him that this not too simple matter is being dealt with with all practical expedition.

    SCRAP METAL.
    Sir W. Davisonasked the Minister of Supply whether he is satisfied at the steps which are being taken in different

    1265
    London boroughs to collect the considerable quantity of scrap-iron, etc., which is available at many private houses; and what further action is being taken to enable scrap metal to be collected from private individuals?
    Mr. H. Morrison: There is considerable variation in the activity of the different London boroughs in this matter. In some cases there is room for improvement, and I am considering what further steps should be taken to improve the arrangements for the collection of domestic scrap metal in the London area.
    Sir Percy Harris: Can the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements for co-ordinating all efforts in regard to a comparatively simple problem like this so that all the boroughs can work on the same lines?
    Mr. Morrison: That is certainly an aspect of the matter that I shall take into account.
    Sir W. Davison: Could not an arrangement be made for the sending of a postcard to each borough engineer indicating roughly the amount of scrap metal which any particular household has so that it might be called for.
    Mr. Morrison: I will see that the suggestion is given consideration.
    Mr. Mathers: Are not much greater and more valuable supplies available, in the form of disused rails in all railway and colliery sidings than anything to be found in domestic service?
    Mr. Morrison: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his suggestion, which I will see is considered.
    Mr. Cocksasked the Minister of Supply what progress has he made in his plan for collecting the miles of iron railings in London and elsewhere for conversion into scrap-metal for war purposes?
    Mr. Morrison: As I informed my hon. Friend on 29th May, the movement to release railings for scrap is gathering momentum. Substantial progress has been made and a large quantity of material has already been released. In London I am receiving the active cooperation of my Noble Friend the First Commissioner of Works and of the London County Council.
    Mr. Cocks: Seeing that in his answer last time the Minister said he was not satisfied but would take other steps, is he
    1266
    still satisfied with the progress or does he intend to take other steps?
    Mr. Morrison: Though I am not sure, I think that the other steps that I had in mind, were in relation to the answer given to the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester (Mr. Lyons) already, but the matter certainly will be considered.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    PLUMS (PRICE).
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in connection with the production of plums in the Pershore area of Worcestershire and adjoining areas, he will take steps to ensure that the price paid for these plums is above the cost of production, having regard to the fact that in previous years the selling price has often been lower than the cost of production?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Boothby): My hon. Friend has no doubt seen an announcement in to-day's Press which indicates certain maximum prices for jams, including plum jam, which will be fixed to enable fruit purchases to be carried out on a price level reasonably remunerative to growers, and I am sending him a copy of that announcement.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is vitally necessary to ensure economic prices for the grower, and will he confer with the Minister of Agriculture on this particular problem of plums from Pershore? It is very important.
    Mr. Boothby: I will, of course, confer with my right hon. Friend on this subject.
    Mr. De la Bère: Perhaps my right hon. Friend will also permit me to be present?

    MARGARINE (VITAMIN CONTENT).
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will take steps to verify that there is a minimum adequate vitamin content in all margarine offered for sale?
    Mr. Boothby: Yes, Sir, adequate steps have already been taken.

    POULTRY FEEDING-STUFFS.
    Mr. Butcherasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in allocating supplies of feeding-

    1267
    stuffs for poultry, he will give preference to ex-service men?
    Mr. Boothby: No, Sir.

    PEAS.
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what steps have been taken in relation to the release of loose and processed peas, in regard to the high increases of price of which complaints have been repeatedly made to his Department; whether any additional stocks have been released; and whether it is now proposed to apply price control?
    Mr. Boothby: As indicated in my reply to my hon. and learned Friend on 21st May, arrangements have been made for imports above pre-war scale. In view of Italy's declaration of war, it is doubtful whether the full quantity will now arrive. My Noble Friend is therefore arranging for immediate consideration of the imposition of price control.
    Mr. Lyons: In view of the tremendous delay which has already taken place may I ask whether a decision may be expedited in the course of a day or two, preferably to-day?
    Mr. Boothby: A decision will be given at the earliest possible moment but I cannot now say when.
    Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that peas can be grown in this country, especially on newly turned ground?
    Mr. Boothby: Yes, Sir, we are giving every encouragement to that.

    HOTEL AND RESTAURANT MEALS.
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, with a view to the conservation of foodstuffs and the release of unessential labour, he will consider the introduction of some restriction upon the number of courses sold or supplied in hotels and catering establishments for meals?
    Mr. Boothby: My Noble Friend has been giving careful consideration to this question and has recently conferred with representatives of the hotel and restaurant proprietors. It was quite clear at this meeting that the interests concerned held views in harmony with those expressed by my Noble Friend, and the representatives
    1268
    attending the meeting undertook to submit proposals for consideration by the Ministry of Food. When these proposals have been received, it is hoped to make a statement on the subject.
    Mr. Lyons: May I ask whether, in view of the great importance of the matter, my hon. Friend will consider representations from all interested parties?
    Mr. Boothby: Representatives of all interested bodies were consulted.
    Mr. Lyons: Do I take it that the Minister's mind is not made up on the matter and that he is giving it consideration now?
    Mr. Boothby: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Will the Minister see that if the courses are cut down prices will be also cut down?

    ALLOTMENT HOLDERS (SURPLUS PRODUCE).
    Mr. Parkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether any steps have yet been taken to assist allotment holders to market any supplies surplus to their own requirements so as to avoid waste of food?
    Mr. Boothby: Yes, Sir. Steps are being taken to organise the local collection of surplus produce of allotment holders and to arrange for its marketing as far as possible through the ordinary trade channels. To avoid waste, growers are also being encouraged to provide their neighbours with surplus perishable produce.
    Mr. Parker: What local machinery is being created in this country?
    Mr. Boothby: We are in consultation with the National Federation of Women's Institutes, the National Council for Social Service, the National Allotment Society, Rural Community Councils and various other voluntary organisations.
    Mr. Parker: Are local authorities being consulted in the matter?
    Mr. Boothby: Yes, Sir.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Can my hon. Friend say why an answer was given to this Question at two days' notice while a letter written three weeks ago remains unanswered?
    Mr. Boothby: I require notice of that question.

    GREAT BRITAIN AND THAILAND (TREATY)
    Sir John Wardlaw-Milne(by Private Notice) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make regarding our relations with Thailand?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I am glad to be able to inform the House that a Pact of Non-Aggression was signed between Great Britain and Thailand at Bangkok this morning. His Majesty's Government warmly welcome this agreement as confirming the long-established friendly relations with the Government and people of Thailand and as introducing a further element of stability in South Eastern Asia. A similar treaty was signed at Bangkok to-day between the Governments of France and Thailand and a treaty of friendship between the Governments of Thailand and Japan was also signed to-day in Tokyo.
    Mr. Thorne: Why do you not get things squared up with Mexico, and get that job also settled?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).
Ordered,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock."—[Mr. Attlee.]
Vice-Admiral Taylor: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask whether you have any power and, if so, will exercise it, in view of the serious position of this country at the present time, to postpone the public Debate to-day on Home Defence matters which is the first Order of the Day? If the Debate is to be of any practical use then it must be evident that matters which would be of great use to the enemy will be discussed. Deficiencies in our home defence if they exist—and perhaps they do exist—must be brought to light, and matters of great detail which cannot be of any public interest, however much they are in the national interest, would be discussed? It cannot be in the national interest that all this information, which is of great use to the enemy, should be discussed publicly in the House to-day.
Mr. Speaker: I have no power to postpone the Debate.
Mr. Cocks: Is not the Debate to-day on Civil Defence and not Home Defence?
Sir Percy Hurd: May I ask the Deputy Leader of the House whether it is not desirable to ask two or three Members o: each party to consult privately with Ministers concerned so that they can be conversant with the feeling of the House?
Mr. Attlee: In answer to that question I think Members of this House fully realise their responsibilities in a matter like Civil Defence which, after all, has been discussed in this House for a long time. If hon. Members exercise the discretion they usually do exercise I think a perfectly useful Debate may be had.
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: May I ask you. Mr. Speaker, whether you or anybody else has any power to stop a Member if he is inadvertently giving something away to the enemy? What powers have we on our part to get up on a point of Order and stop a Member?
Mr. Speaker: I have no power to act in that way.

BILLS REPORTED.
CARDIFF CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Reported, without amendment, from the committee on unopposed bills.
Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
FARNHAM GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL [Lorad.]
Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).
Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Amendments to—
Coventry Corporation Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [10th ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (Colonel Clifton Brown in the Chair.)
  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1940.
  MINISTRY OF HOME SECURITY.

  CIVIL DEFENCE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum not exceeding £100 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Home Security."
  3.39 p.m.
  Sir William Davison: With regard to the informal notice I have given you, Col. Clifton Brown, in view of the recent personal appeal made to Members of the House by the Prime Minister and reinforced by Mr. Speaker from the Chair, may I ask for your guidance with regard to to-day's Debate as it would appear that it might give information to the enemy which would not be in the national interest?
  The Deputy-Chairman: There is very little the Chair can give in way of guidance or ruling on matters of this kind. As I heard Mr. Speaker and the Leader of the House say, these matters must depend on the discretion of Members.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: We have had discretion for years.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I am anxious to reinforce the appeal made by the Speaker to the House and I would ask Members to think twice or even thrice before they say anything which might be of value to the enemy.
  3.40 p.m.
  Mr. Maxton: May I put a further point? I understood that the request for this Debate came "from all quarters of the House." Now, it is apparent that a request is coming from all quarters of the House that the Debate should not take place. Will the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House tell us precisely where the demand came from for this Debate, which is now so unpopular?
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): It was ascertained through the usual channels that there was a desire on the part of Members of all parties to have this discussion, and no notice has been given to me of the contrary view.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I think we are getting rather beyond what are points of Order, and also outside the Motion before the Committee. If the Committee does not discuss the matter we shall have to report Progress.
  Mr. Stephen: Is it not possible for an hon. Member to move to report Progress if we do not wish to debate the matter?
  Sir W. Davison: May I ask what are the "usual channels" now? I have asked a number of hon. Members and they are all opposed to this Debate.
  The Deputy-Chairman: That is not a matter for me.
  3.42 p.m.
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  I do so in order that the wishes of the House may be taken regarding the advisability of any further debate taking place from the national point of view and information being given to the enemy.
  Mr. Denman: I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not press that Motion at present. [Hon. Members: "Why?"] We can report Progress later, but it is quite obvious that the Government wish to make a statement which may be of extreme value to the country.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Before we discuss the matter any further I think it will be just as well if I say that I am prepared to accept the Motion of the hon. and gallant Member. The Question is, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  3.44 p.m.
  Sir W. Davison: I think it desirable that this Motion should be carried. We have been told that inquiries have been made through the usual channels and it was understood there was a general desire of hon. Members that this particular Vote should be taken. I am an old Member of the House; I have been here for 21

  1279
  years, and I know my fellow Members fairly well. I have made inquiries of Members of all parties and I have not found a single hon. Member of any party who wants the Debate to proceed, because it is very likely to give information to the enemy. That is the general feeling in all sections of the Committee. I strongly support the Motion to report Progress, so that this Debate should not now take place. I cannot see how we can criticise the Government without giving valuable information to the enemy. It is a contradiction in terms. It is all very well in times of peace to criticise the Government and tell them that they are not doing enough, but in times like these it is far more important that we should point out things to the Government either in Committee upstairs or in Secret Session and should not publicly draw attention to any defects there may be in our arrangements for Civil Defence. We all want to stand together and give no information to the enemy which may be useful to him.
  3.46 p.m.
  Sir Percy Harris:I think hon. Members are quite right in saying that care should be taken so that information is not made public which will be helpful to the enemy. These times require great discretion in the form of Questions and in Debate. I have greater confidence in the wisdom and common sense of my colleagues than some hon. Members. We are responsible Members of Parliament, and if we are going to suggest that on subjects of importance the House of Commons cannot be trusted in Debate, then the House of Commons might very well be closed down.
  Mr. Stephen: Secret Session.
  Sir P. Harris: The hon. Member suggests a Secret Session. As far as I am concerned, I have never taken exception to a Secret Session on appropriate subjects. As a matter of fact, the Minister is going to make an important statement, which the House of Commons desires to hear. Hon. Members who will speak will be making no criticisms but offering constructive suggestions from their knowledge and experience, which they think might help the Minister in the discharge of his difficult and responsible task.
  3.47 p.m.
  Sir Derrick Gunston: May I make a suggestion to the Committee?
  1280
  I am very impressed by the argument that it might be inadvisable to have a Debate, but, on the other hand, I think the Committee wants to hear the statement of the Minister. I am sure the statement would give us full information and give no information to the enemy. May I suggest that the Motion should be withdrawn, that we should hear the Minister's statement, and then if they so desire, hon. Members could move to report Progress again.
  3.48 p.m.
  Mr. Lees-Smith: The problem has arisen rather suddenly, but this is what occurs to me to be the situation. For some time I have felt it would be a good thing if the public came to regard a Secret Session not as something to be alarmed about, but as the normal method of debate and discussion on the war owing to the peculiar circumstances in which debate now takes place. Therefore, as far as I have been able to consult with my colleagues, I am not averse to a Secret Session on subjects where the House as a whole thinks information would be otherwise revealed. At the same time I am anxious that the House of Commons should not be elbowed aside out of all discussion. If it is felt that there is a danger we shall not resist a Secret Session, but we shall resist any Motion to report Progress.
  Mr. Maxton: I can understand protests coming from an Opposition against the stifling of debate, but now I understand the protest is being made by one who is a complete part of the Government.
  Mr. Shinwell: Not a complete part.
  Mr. Maxton: Do I understand that this united nation is only a facade?
  The Deputy-Chairman: I must remind hon. Members that we are discussing a Motion to report Progress and that we must stick very closely to the actual reasons for such a Motion. We cannot go outside it.
  3.50 p.m.
  Mr. Maxton: I thought that what I was saying was very germane to the subject. The Committee is put into this position to-day because one section of the Government demands a Supply day and another section of the Government supporters say they do not want a Supply day. I suggest

  1281
  to the Government that this type of thing should be settled through the "usual channels," and not on the Floor of the House.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: It has been.
  Mr. Maxton: It has not been. It is obvious when we rind protests arising from half-a-dozen quarters among the Government's own supporters and voicing the opinion of the majority of the Government supporters, that the thing has not been satisfactorily settled through the "usual channels." An hon. Member opposite said that he wanted to hear the speech of the Minister and it has been suggested that the Minister is to make a great and important pronouncement to-day. I do not know how these rumblings arise about what kind of speech the Minister is to make. The rumour which has reached my ears is that the Home Secretary is not to make the big speech to-day; that he has a multitude of other interests to attend to, and that the big speech is to be made by the Parliamentary Secretary, who has specialised on this particular job.
  Mr. James Griffiths: The hon. Member has been complaining about the "usual channels." Through what channels did he get that information?
  Mr. Maxton: The hon. Member cannot have been listening to me. I referred to rumblings which had reached my ears.
  Mr. Griffiths: Who are the rumblers?
  Mr. Maxton: There must be one set of the "usual channels" running along peculiar courses. [Hon. Members: "Gossip."] Yes, there is gossip and my gossip, as far as the House of Commons knows, is as good as any other person's gossip. Perhaps in this case the channels have overflown. I support the Motion to report Progress, and I make the suggestion to the Government that before they arrange the discussions for Supply Days they should consult—
  Hon. Members: There was consultation.
  Mr. McGovern: Hon. Members above the Gangway should not be consulted. They are in the Government.
  Mr. Maxton: I would say this—that responsible senior Privy Councillors, outside the Government, should be consulted
  1282
  so that the House should not be made a laughing-stock in the eyes of the community.
  3.53 p.m.
  Mr. Attlee: I wish to make a suggestion to the Committee. I ask hon. Members, in the first place, to remember that we are working under rather difficult conditions, under which we wish to retain to the full the rights of all Members of the House of Commons, including the right to bring up matters for discussion and to get full statements from the Government on such matters. An endeavour has been made on this occasion to meet the wishes of the House of Commons but at any time, on any Supply Day, there will always be some Members who do not wish to have a particular subject discussed—
  Sir W. Davison: It is not a question of not wishing to discuss the subject.
  Mr. Attlee:—and there will always be some Members who do wish to have that particular subject discussed. It was intimated by responsible Members that there was a desire to have a discussion on Civil Defence and I would remind the Committee that it was announced last week that there would be such a discussion and that none of this clamour was raised then. Further, no one has approached me since with representations on the ground that it would be improper to have such a discussion. The Minister is, of course, perfectly willing and ready to make a statement on Civil Defence. I suggest that he should be allowed to make it and if the Committee then wish, they can either report Progress—[Hon. Members: "No."] I am putting the alternatives before hon. Members. The Committee can, if they wish, report Progress; or, if they choose, they can go on as on an ordinary Supply Day, exercising that sense of responsibility which hon. Members must be expected to exercise, or they can ask that the Committee should go into Secret Session. I suggest that the right thing is to decide which course is to be adopted when hon. Members have heard the statement by the Minister.
  3.55 p.m.
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: I support what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) that it is essential that the House of Commons should not be elbowed aside as regards

  1283
  the conduct of this war. I think we are all agreed on that, but it does the House considerable discredit that every time the question arises of discussing matters of Defence, there should be a wrangle about how and when and in what circumstances that discussion should take place. It seems to me that the difficulty could be very simply removed if it were understood by the Government that questions of Defence should always be discussed in Secret Session. That would allow, full and open discussion to take place without the chance of inadvertent information being given to the enemy. If a statement is to be made by the Minister and if criticism is to be of any use, inevitably something will be said which may be helpful to the enemy. It is hardly fair to ask the Minister to make a statement in public when rumours are going about among Members as the result of information given to them privately, about possible or alleged deficiencies in Defence. It is impossible for the Minister to answer criticism in public without running the risk of giving information to the enemy. If, on all matters of Defence, discussions were held in Secret Session, it would be a good service to the country and would avoid the kind of wrangle which is bringing the House of Commons into discredit.
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: In view of what the Lord Privy Seal has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  3.58 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): I wish to open this Debate by giving a brief review of some of the main aspects of Civil Defence. Civil Defence is a subject which presents many facets, and it has developed in scope and variety far beyond the original conception of the Government and Parliament. I cannot hope to deal exhaustively in my opening statement with every aspect of the subject. There are, as the Committee very obviously realises to the full, certain aspects of the matter upon which it would not be wise to give full details, but if hon. Members who have taken part in the discussion to which we have just listened have been under the impression that the sort of
  1284
  account which, as a matter of duty, I should find it right and necessary to give to the Committee would be likely to encourage, our enemies, I should like to say straight away that I have every hope that the statement which I am about to make, a perfectly truthful and frank statement within its limits, will be calculated to have exactly the opposite effect.
  My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will be winding up the Debate, and I shall have to leave it to him to gather together the points of detail which may be raised in the course of the Debate. I must confine myself, as I said, to some broad aspects of the subject. In considering what I should include within the scope of my statement, I naturally turned back to the Debate which took place on 3rd November, 1938, when I made my first modest contribution in my capacity as the Minister responsible for Civil Defence. On that occasion I referred to certain outstanding questions which needed to be dealt with promptly and effectively. I singled out the subjects of evacuation, shelter policy, the development of a properly organised and equipped regional staff throughout the country, and the difficult problems that seemed likely to arise in the Metropolis by reason of the complex character of the organisation of local government in that area. I cannot deal with all those subjects this afternoon, because evacuation is to be dealt with, I understand, to-morrow by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. I would only say on that subject that I know that my right hon. Friend will be able to demonstrate to the Committee that the general problem of the evacuation of portions of the civil population from danger areas has been worked out on a far more comprehensive basis and according to a far more flexible plan than seemed at the date of the earlier Debate to be within the region of possibility.
  I would like to say just a word about the organisation of the regional staff which has been established up and down the country. That staff has been organised in 12 regions, and in each of those regions we have been able to establish what is in fact a microcosm of the central Government. Under a regional and a deputy-regional commissioner, we have in each region, closely linked together, responsible officers of all the main civil Departments concerned with

  1285
  every aspect of Civil Defence. We have attached to the regional commissioners an adequate technical staff capable of dealing with air-raid precautions in all their aspects, with the problems of shelter, with fire brigade organisation, and so forth. We have made possible a degree of decentralisation of responsibility and work which, under the conditions which may arise in the course of the war, will, I am certain, prove to be of the most vital importance. In London, where in the area covered by the London region there are 101 separate local authorities—and it is a curious fact that that number, which in colloquial speech is usually taken to signify an infinite diversity, does happen to represent the exact number of local authorities which are called upon to collaborate in Civil Defence within the Metropolitan Police area, which is the area of the London region—we have been able to establish an exceptionally strong regional staff, and that staff has developed relations with very numerous authorities which will ensure that those authorities and the representatives of the Government Departments can apply themselves to their tasks, whatever they may be, working together, despite their diversity and number, as a coherent whole.
  I propose to reserve to a later stage in my speech a discussion of the whole subject of shelter, which is a matter of great importance and of no little concern, as I know, to hon. Members and to the public, but before I come to that may I say just a few words on the subject of equipment—the equipment of the Civil Defence Services, including the Auxiliary Fire Service? I have in fact not very much to say on that subject, because I am in a position to tell the Committee that for all practical purposes the issue of the necessary equipment for those services is complete, complete with reserves. I will give a few illustrative figures, which I do not think will give any information to the enemy which it is undesirable that the enemy should have, but which will serve to illustrate the magnitude of the effort that has been involved in organising the supply of this equipment. Of respirators of all kinds, including children's respirators and the device known as the baby's helmet, we have issued numbers not far short of 60,000,000; of steel helmets we have issued not far short of 3,000,000; of oilskin suits, over 1,500,000; of stirrup
  1286
  pumps we have issued a number running into six figures—these stirrup pumps, as hon. Members probably know, form the most important item of equipment required for dealing with attack by incendiary bombs—and of sandbags we have issued roughly 350,000,000. I give these figures partly as illustrative figures, as I have said, in order to show the magnitude of the task which has been successfully accomplished.
  Now I pass, because I am going to make if I can quite a brief review, to the very important subject of Civil Defence personnel. The Committee will remember that on the outbreak of war the Civil Defence services were at once fully mobilised, and the local authorities were called upon to take immediate steps to make good such deficiencies as might exist in the ranks of those services. As a result of the action that was taken, and still more as a consequence of the circumstance, perhaps the fortunate circumstance, that the war did not break upon us with the sudden and full intensity that might perhaps have been expected, there was a great deal of criticism, voiced in this House and elsewhere, of large numbers of Civil Defence workers standing about doing nothing, eating their heads off, at great cost to the State, and there was a clamant demand that the Ministry should get to work cutting down the numbers of personnel so organised and brought into action. I declined to take with undue haste measures for the cutting down of our Civil Defence personnel. In spite of the feeling, which I shared with, I think, most Members of the House, that it was most undesirable—especially in time of war, when economy of effort and of expenditure should be the aim so far as practicable—that an organisation apparently in excess of the immediate requirements should be kept in full being. I felt that it was essential, before any sweeping reductions were made, to undertake a thorough review of the position. As the result of that review, which necessarily occupied a good many weeks, the Ministry issued to all the authorities concerned a revised establishment of Civil Defence personnel in the various services. The establishment then laid down was that which it was thought should prove adequate, having regard to the fact that the element of surprise, against which we had at the beginning to be constantly

  1287
  on our guard, had to a large extent been eliminated. Account was also taken of the fact that the weeks that had elapsed had been employed in improving the training, and building up the efficiency and the capacity for team work, of the personnel available.
  That revised establishment was communicated through the regional organisations to the various local authorities concerned, and it was made the basis of a more detailed inquiry with a view to determining, in relation to the actual circumstances of each area, how far it was possible to adhere to the revised establishment that had been laid down. That process of detailed examination and investigation was completed last April, and as a result a further instruction was issued to local authorities, giving precise details of the organisation of the various services and of the strength, paid and unpaid, of Civil Defence personnel that should be aimed at. I think I may venture quite safely to give the Committee a few illustrative figures, in order that, without giving any information as to the position in particular areas, hon. Members may-have in their minds the general picture as it now is. The total establishment at which in those latest instructions we have fixed the strength of the personnel in the various services of air-raid precautions, excluding for the moment such services as the Auxiliary Fire Service, the auxiliary police, the various casualty services, which come under the control of the Health Departments, and the services established in connection with evacuation—I say that with these exceptions the total establishment, paid and unpaid, that we have thus fixed is just short of 1,000,000, and of that 1,000,000 the number of whole-time paid personnel is roughly 180,000. The net financial result of the process of review which I have just described would be to reduce the annual charge for paid personnel, which falls, I may remind the Committee, entirely upon the Exchequer, by something between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000. The authorised establishment of the fire services accounts for an additional 200,000 persons, auxiliary police for an additional 60,000, the personnel engaged in connection with health services and casualties, which I mention here in order to complete the general picture, represents
  1288
  over 250,000, and for the evacuation services the total numbers enrolled amount to something like 100,000. Therefore, you get a total which I think the Committee will agree represents a very substantial achievement in the organisation and training of personnel for these entirely new services.
  I want to make it clear to the Committee that the organisation which I have been describing leaves out of account altogether the personnel organised by virtue of provisions included in the Civil Defence Act passed last year in connection with industrial establishments. Factory occupiers have carried out the responsibilities placed upon them by that Act, not only in respect of training personnel, but also in connection with the provision of shelters, in a manner worthy of all praise. We have available now, in the form of trained personnel connected with industrial establishments, highly organised units, representing in total number, so far as they are available as a reserve to come to the aid of the regular Civil Defence service organisation under the local authorities, something of the order of 150,000 men and women. We have been able to make arrangements, through the regional commissioners, with industrial establishments, whereby, in case of need, this highly trained personnel will be made available as a second line of defence to assist the services provided by the local authorities.
  In a number of areas we have been able to persuade employers, not only to train the personnel required in accordance with the terms of the Civil Defence Act to ensure that the Civil Defence services in connection with a particular factory or works are adequately organised, but to go further and train additional personnel, at their own expense, to be available in case of need as a still further reserve to supplement the reserves available to the local authorities. In addition, we have taken in hand the more intensive training of the personnel available, training not only in individual duties, but training in joint exercises involving the collaboration of a number of neighbouring authorities. To assist in that all-important work of developing the training of personnel for the actual tasks they may be called upon to discharge, we have organised under Sir Hugh Elles, at headquarters, a special operational staff.

  1289
  Hon. Members may be inclined to ask why I have found it necessary in the last few days to issue a new call for volunteers for the Civil Defence services. The explanation is simple. As the war proceeds, we must expect that more and more calls will be made upon the manpower of the country. We cannot hope to be able to retain all the whole-time personnel at present included in the Civil Defence services, and we want to be able to go so far as is humanly possible in the direction of replacing our whole-time personnel by adequately trained part-time personnel. It is for that reason—and not because there are actual deficiencies in the establishments, for with few exceptions there are no such deficiencies—in order that we may be prepared for the future and may have additional men and women trained and available as a reserve, that this call has been issued. We must not only secure economy, but we must also conserve all our man-power if we are to fight this war successfully. It is too early to say what sort of response we shall have to this new call, but I hope my hon. Friend, when he comes to wind up the Debate, will be able to give some indication of the nature of that response. We must recognise that in a number of our most vulnerable areas, especially our munition areas, where the need for industrial workers is very great, and where the industrial army is putting forth its maximum effort, it will be difficult to find people who can spare time to give to part-time Civil Defence work. We must, however, do our best to overcome these difficulties.
  We have, as hon. Members know, as a result of the Act passed only a few days ago, certain powers in regard to the employment of men and women on tasks of vital importance to the State. It maybe that, so far as our whole-time personnel are concerned, we shall have to make use of those powers. It might be suggested that the use of these compulsory powers ought to be extended to cover part-time personnel. On that point I would say just this. It is very much more difficult, apart from all other considerations, to apply the principle of compulsion to the organisation of part-time personnel than it is in the case of whole-time personnel. Who is to judge whether a person whose primary employment is in connection, for example, with the production of munitions, is really
  1290
  in a position to give time to Civil Defence without prejudice to his primary occupation? Who is to tell, if not the man himself? Therefore, I say, we ought, if possible, in the case of part-time personnel to adhere to the principle of self-selection, which is the voluntary principle. I think that I am justified in saying to the Committee that the results which I have outlined in regard to the numbers of men and women now available in Civil Defence services do represent an outstanding triumph of voluntary effort.
  I should now like to pass to the question of shelters, and here, perhaps, there is a subject on which a certain degree of restraint, both on my part, and on the part of those who may wish to follow me in this Debate, would be very desirable. There are, however, certain things which I can say quite frankly to the Committee. I am aware of the criticisms which have been current, and I am aware that it has been said that the provision of shelter is, even at this date, after many months of war, short of our real requirements. I am aware that it has been said that we have not provided shelter for everybody, or that the shelter we have provided is not of the requisite standard. I should like for a few moments to pause and examine these criticisms. First, I want to compare what has been done with what we set out to do. May I remind the Committee that on 21st December, 1938, I made in this House the first comprehensive statement of the Government's policy in regard to the provision of shelters. I dealt with shelters of all kinds—with the provision of domestic shelters, a new conception, announced for the first time on that occasion. The central idea was shelter near the home, as against communal shelter to which people would have to go in the event of an air raid warning. I also dealt with communal shelter and with the problem of industrial shelter—that is, shelter at the factory or mine—and with shelters in all commercial buildings where the number of employésmight aggregate a considerable body of men and women. At the conclusion of the statement I said that the total number of persons for whom we proposed to make provision in the various forms of shelter I had described would be nearly 20,000,000. I had a return the other day from various local authorities and

  1291
  employers, and it will interest the Committee to know that the total number of persons for whom shelter has, in fact, been provided happens to be, for practical purposes, 20,000,000. That is an outstanding fact which should be noted.
  I could give further particulars of cost. Perhaps, although we are in Committee of Supply, it would be better not to state them publicly; but I should be glad to give them to any hon. Member, because it is a useful check on the figures—we all know pretty well what it costs on the average to provide shelter of the blast and splinter standard. It is perfectly true that the figure of 20,000,000, although it was our original goal, does not represent the provision of shelter for all. But we did not set out to provide shelter for all, and we made it clear that we were first of all going to discriminate between area and area, and concentrate our efforts on the provision of shelters in the most vulnerable areas. Beyond that, we made it clear that, so far as domestic shelter was concerned, we looked to those who could fairly be expected to provide shelters for themselves to do so. The question may be asked, why, if it is true that we have provided all the shelter which we originally set out to provide, we are going on providing shelters. The answer is that as we gained more experience, and as valuable experimental data increased, we were not content with the goal which we first set out to reach. Therefore, we are still pressing forward to improve upon the existing provision of shelter protection, although it already represents the accomplishment of our initial aim. It is also true that the distribution of shelter protection is not uniform, even in areas of any particular classification, but it is broadly true that the provision of shelter is best where the needs are greatest—that is, because attention has been concentrated on those special target areas. But there are gaps which need to be filled, and I do not conceal the fact, although I will not specify the localities. We shall use all our efforts to ensure that in the shortest possible period these gaps are filled. Powers have been taken under Defence Regulation 29A, and we shall not hesitate to use them. I intend that they should be delegated to the regional organisations and those in close touch with the authorities concerned.
  1292
  I now turn to industrial shelters. Hon. Members will recall that the Civil Defence Act laid an obligation on factory employers and owners of commercial buildings in that regard. I am very pleased indeed to be able to inform the Committee that, according to the latest reports received from factory inspectors, who have rendered invaluable service in collaboration with employers in securing that these provisions are carried into effect, the provision of shelter in factories is, for all practical purposes, complete. The same is broadly true of the provision of shelters in mines. I do not doubt that here and there there may be difficulties, but broadly it is true that the provision of shelters in mines is complete. As regards commercial buildings, those Members who were present at the discussions on the Civil Defence Bill will realise that the problem was much more difficult because of the diversity of interests involved, but I think that there, too, the returns that have been received from local authorities, to whom the supervision of shelter provision in commercial buildings was entrusted, show gratifying and encouraging results. I will give the figures to any hon. Member who would like to have them. I wish to pay a well deserved tribute to those who have collaborated in bringing this necessary provision of shelter speedily into existence.
  There is a further point that I would like to make in this review of the general shelter position. When we were urging upon local authorities, and others concerned, to put every possible effort, into the provision of specially constructed shelters, we advisedly did not make reference to the degree of protection which is provided by an ordinary soundly-constructed house. I would like to remind the Committee that the degree of protection so provided is, in fact, very substantial, and if people who have not special shelters provided in their houses or close to them will carry out the advice given in a booklet which has been widely distributed, called, "Your Home as an Air-Raid Shelter," they will be well advised, when an air-raid warning is given, to stay in their houses rather than rush out into the streets and try to find their way to communal shelters.
  We have recently issued to local authorities a memorandum giving particulars of a method of providing really effective shelters by making use of derelict houses.

  1293
  It is a very ingenious method which has recently been evolved by my technical officers. It takes the form of adapting derelict houses of two storeys. The great problem in the provision of shelters is that of materials and labour, and anything which can reduce the demand on those two rather scarce commodities is all to the good. What can be done with a derelict house is this. Strip the roof, prise away the roof beams, cut the roof beams into suitable lengths for strutting the ground floor, use the bricks of the upper courses to cover the top of the first floor so as to provide overhead shelter, and with the bricks that are over block up window openings and so forth. The result is that, without any expense on material and by using labour which may be more readily available than the skilled bricklayers for which there is a great demand, you can in a very short time provide a really adequate form of shelter. I expect that in that way it will be possible in a number of areas where shelter provision is not quite adequate to make up the deficiency to a large extent very rapidly. These instructions were issued only within the last few days, but there are already indications that some local authorities are proceeding to act on them.
  Let me say a word about the finance of shelter provision, because it has been suggested that the arrangements made by the Government have militated against the provision of shelters by local authorities. I do not think there is very much in that contention. The financial terms provided by the Air-Raid Precautions Act were exceptionally generous. They provided for an initial grant of 65 to 75 per cent., according to the classification of the area. After the charge falling upon the funds of local authorities for air-raid precautions had reached the equivalent of a penny rate, the rate of grant was to be increased by 10 per cent. so that, instead of being from 65 to 75 per cent., it was from 75 to 85 per cent. Apart from these financial provisions, the burden on local authorities for the provision of shelters has been substantially reduced by the decision of the Government that, in the case of domestic shelters, and communal shelters which are provided in lieu of domestic shelters—what might be called multiple-unit domestic shelters—the whole of the cost of material will be borne by the Exchequer. The general financial picture that results is something like this. For
  1294
  a standard type of communal shelter for 48 people costing about £100, all but about £12 10s. is met from the Treasury; and even of that amount of £12 10s. a substantial part would normally be covered by loan because the expenditure is nonrecurring. If one looks at it from the point of view of the total burden falling upon the rates in the various localities, I am told that the average rate burden in 1939–40 for Civil Defence is not likely to exceed very much the equivalent of a 3d. rate. The figures for 18 large cities and county boroughs show that, leaving out of account the cost of certain rescue-party and miscellaneous equipment supplied free by the Government, the Exchequer would be bearing on the average about 86 per cent. of the total expenditure, that the rates would be bearing about 3½per cent., and that the balance would or could be met by loan. It will be apparent that the actual burden on the funds of local authorities for Civil Defence in general and for shelters in particular is, relative to the other charges on local authorities, not very substantial.
  Turning to the question of deep or strongly protected shelters, the Government have been criticised because they concentrated attention on what could be provided quickly, namely, on the splinter and blast-proof shelter which does undoubtedly give protection against by far the major part of the risk to which the civil population would be exposed. There has been a long controversy on the subject of deep shelter, and I felt it might be regarded as closed. I have, however, seen several times in the Press of late a tendency to recur to it, and I do not think my statement would be complete if I did not deal with the question. In the first instance I thought it right to keep an open mind, and when I announced the Government's plan for the provision of splinter and blast-proof shelter, I indicated that the possibility of further provision of a more strongly-protected type of shelter, should not be regarded as excluded. I set up a body, which came to be known as the Hailey Conference, to give special consideration to the question. While giving general support to the policy of the Government in the provision of splinter and blast-proof shelter, that conference recommended that more strongly protected shelter should be provided in a limited number of special cases. That report was accepted by the

  1295
  Government. I want to tell the Committee frankly what has been the result of the further consideration which has been given to the matter.
  In the first instance, we took up the question with the employers and representatives of the workers concerned in some of our most vital industrial undertakings. The decision reached after consideration of the matter was that to provide special strongly-protected shelters for the workers in those establishments would involve technical problems so difficult that it must be regarded as impracticable in any short space of time to provide such shelter on any substantial scale. The difficulties were due partly to the time factor, partly to considerations of space and partly to questions of labour and material, but they were also psychological. It was found that there was a definite reluctance on the part of workers to support plans for the provision of shelters for themselves at their places of work which would be out of all scale with the shelter provided in the ordinary course for their wives and families.
  I do not want to be controversial, but looking back I must say frankly that I am devoutly thankful we did not adopt a general policy of providing deep or strongly protected shelters. Had we done so, we should at this moment have been in a far worse position, looking at the problem as a whole, than we are to-day. The country would have been caught with a very limited amount of shelter in course of construction and not completed. We should have been faced with the two inevitable shortages of labour and material which have now occurred and which are affecting even the provision of splinter and blast-proof shelter. We have had a lot of experience since the outbreak of the war, and we know a great deal more now about the form which enemy attack may take and the risks to which the general population may be exposed. We know that we have to expect a great number of attacks unheralded by any warning. That is inevitable. We know that the period of warning on which we can rely, which was estimated at from 5 to 7½minutes, may in many cases be much shorter. The period of warning is an important factor in considering the sort of shelter that it is best to provide. The longer the period of warning, the less the
  1296
  objection to large and strongly protected shelters, which it would take people some time to reach. The shorter the period of warning, the greater the danger of people leaving the comparative shelter of their homes and being caught in the streets and perhaps machine-gunned while trying to find their way to communal shelter.
  There is another consideration of perhaps a more subtle but not less important character. In this war we must avoid at all costs what I may call the deep-shelter mentality. Ask anyone who has had experience of modern war what that mentality means and its effect upon morale. There are these further considerations. Think of the menace of incendiary bombs and of the means available for dealing with them. I have spoken of the large number of stirrup pumps which have been issued to local authorities, and we are adding to that number enormously under a new plan of issuing stirrup pumps to the general public on condition that they band themselves in groups to use the stirrup pumps. They will not use the stirrup pumps if they are in deep shelters. They would not know what had happened to their houses, which would be burning merrily in their absence. Then think of the possibility of attack by parachute troops. If that happened, would people like to be underground in deep shelters? We must assume that the enemy will adapt his tactics to our protective arrangements. Looking at the matter broadly, and I hope quite dispassionately, and bearing in mind all those considerations, I say again that I am devoutly thankful that we did not adopt a policy of deep shelters.
  There has recently come into prominence an idea that, without going to the length of providing deep or heavily-protected shelters, we might have provided a type of splinter and blast-proof shelter which would serve its purpose well in the first instance and could be converted later into something intermediate between the splinter and blast-proof type and what is called a heavily-protected shelter. I do not dismiss that idea at all. In fact, I believe I thought of it first. A long time ago, I put it to my technical advisers, and they said then that it looked a good idea, but that they believed it was impracticable for the reason that in order to provide a more strongly protected shelter at a later

  1297
  stage you would, at the beginning, have to make the surrounding walls so substantial that the task would be almost as complicated and difficult, and as heavy in terms of material and labour, as if you set about providing heavily protected shelter from the start. I tell the Committee frankly that further examination of the problem has led us to the conclusion that that was an erroneous view, and we now consider that a 50-unit communal shelter of the splinter and blast-proof type can be built which could, without great difficulty, be adapted later to afford substantially increased protection; and I have made arrangements to ensure that where local authorities provide splinter and blast-proof shelters, according to designs to be modified on the lines I have indicated, the Government will pay the full grant.
  In conclusion, I would say that the whole problem of Civil Defence has taken a new turn as a result of the course of development of the war. We have to reckon not merely with the risk of a bombing attack, but with the new menace of invasion, of parachute attack, for which we must be prepared. It is giving no encouragement to the enemy to say that we recognise that we must be prepared for these risks. In the arrangements for providing the people of these islands with the fullest possible protection against those dangers, I believe that the regional organisation which was established for the purposes of our air-raid precautions scheme will prove quite invaluable. I believe that the collaboration which has got to be established all over the country between the military and the civil authorities would be almost impossible if we had not already in being the well developed regional organisation which exists to-day, with its network of connections with the local and public authorities all over the country. It is absolutely vital that there should be, in these critical days, the fullest collaboration between the military authorities, on whom a heavy responsibility rests, and the civil authorities. It is not only necessary that there should be that fullest collaboration, but it is equally necessary that it should be made clear to the public that there is that fullest collaboration, and any obstacle standing in the way of such collaboration ought to be ruthlessly swept aside. In the Ministry of Home Security we are
  1298
  bending all our energies to that new task, and I have been encouraged by recent contacts with the military authorities to think that they are well satisfied that, despite the inevitable difficulties, difficulties on both sides, of adjustment to new ideas, the Civil Defence organisation which we have been able to establish will make a notable contribution to the cooperative effort of the country.
  4.52 p.m.
  Mr. Attlee: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."
  I move this Motion in order to give hon. Members an opportunity of deciding in what way they wish the Debate to continue. The point of view of the Governmnet is this, that Members have a sense of responsibility and can discuss these matters in public without giving away secrets, and therefore we should propose that the Debate should continue in the ordinary way; but I make this Motion in order that any Members who think that it should be continued in secret can make that proposal. If a Motion to that effect is submitted, the Government will leave it to a free vote of the Committee.
  4.53 p.m.
  Mr. Lees-Smith: I think the Lord Privy Seal has taken the wise course in moving to report Progress and leaving it to any Member who so desires to "spy strangers" and turn this into a Secret Session. I myself am most anxious that, whatever happens, we should not be brushed aside from the possibility of the House of Commons discussing the war through any difficulties about Defence questions being discussed in public, and, therefore, I am not averse to making the Secret Session a fairly normal method by which the House conducts its business, and am rather anxious that the public should not regard the holding of a Secret Session as something to be alarmed about. When I come to discuss with myself whether, if anyone "spies strangers" to-day I shall support him, there are one or two considerations in my mind which I should like to submit to the Committee. The first is that the Minister has already made his statement, and although I am not averse to Secret Sessions. I should not care for a Secret Session in which the Minister speaks in public and the curtain descends upon Members when they begin their observations. All of it must be

  1299
  secret or none of it. The other observation I would make is that if we take the Minister's statement as an example, there could be nothing more harmless or innocuous, and I do not believe that any Member will give away any more information than the Minister has given away. I think that a Secret Session on a topic of this kind would mean that the House of Commons was becoming alarmed to the extent of becoming silly. Therefore, if it is proposed to go into Secret Session this afternoon, although I do not object to Secret Sessions, I shall on this occasion vote against it, because I do not think a Secret Session is necessary.
  4.55 p.m.
  Sir P. Harris: I want to endorse what the right hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) has said. It entirely expresses my view. Each case has to be considered on its merits. A good deal of discretion must be left to the Members of the Committee. As far as I am concerned, I believe the Debate could be carried on without giving any information to the enemy, and it would give the public greater satisfaction to know that the House was alive to the problem; but if other Members feel otherwise and can persuade the Committee that I am wrong, I think the matter should be left to the opinion of the Committee.
  4.56 p.m.
  Mr. Denman: I feel about the Motion to report Progress exactly what I felt about the previous Motion to report Progress, and that is that it is premature. Surely the right course in these Debates is for us to go ahead and see how they develop. It is quite possible that after a certain number of very useful public speeches, meant to give advice and assistance to the general public, we should get on to topics that we wanted to discuss that were secret, and at that moment it would be open for any one of us to "spy strangers" and for the Committee to resolve itself into a Secret Session. It is premature for us to decide on that course now without waiting to see how the Debate may develop. We can all imagine points of view which we should like to put to the Government and on which we should like to have their answer in private. I trust, therefore, that the present Motion will be withdrawn, but that we shall not thereby debar ourselves
  1300
  from "spying strangers" at a later stage if we think it right to do so.
  4.57 p.m.
  Sir W. Davison: I disagree with the statement of the right hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) that because a Minister has made a statement in public it is undesirable that we should go into Secret Session. It may well be desirable in the national interest that the public should be informed by a reasoned statement, such as the admirable statement we have just had from the Minister of Home Security, of what has been done by the Government, but it does not follow that Members may not wish to raise certain criticisms, and while I think it is desirable that the public should know what the Government have done or propose to do, I think that, generally speaking, it is desirable that all Debates on Civil Defence, or Naval, Military or Air Force matters, should be held in Secret Session, as otherwise it is impossible, in my view, for us to criticise the Government when it may be desirable that there should be criticism. We may feel that there are certain items in connection with Civil Defence which might be improved, but it is impossible for us to put them forward without indicating what, in our opinion, is defective in the Government's proposals, and it is most undesirable that that should be made public. The House of Commons would not be losing its democratic standing in the country. We are all popularly elected, and surely the country can trust us to conduct its affairs—
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member is getting rather wide of the Motion before us. The point is whether we should have a Secret Session now, and we cannot discuss the whole question of Secret Sessions.
  Sir W. Davison: I agree. I would only point out that I do not think the fact that we go into Secret Session should mean that there is anything sinister about the proceeding. It simply means that the popularly-elected representatives of the people want to be able to assist the Government in perfecting the arrangements which are proposed without disclosing every suggestion to the enemy. But I am to a large extent in agreement with the right hon. Member for Keighley, having regard to the tone and to the

  1301
  matter of the Minister's speech, which is an admirable example of how a subject of this kind should be dealt with; and having regard to the general feeling which I see in the Committee, I think we might very well continue this Debate on the same lines, unless, as suggested by the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman), something arises which makes it desirable that we should go into Secret Session, but that, in the future, where there are matters of this kind for discussion, it should be recognised that, in the national interest, it is desirable that the discussion should be in Secret Session.
  5.1 p.m.
  Earl Winterton:I did not wish to take part in this Debate, since I understand, from your Ruling, Colonel Clifton Brown—and I do not in any way question it—that we are not dealing with the whole subject of secret Debates; but I think I ought to say that I am in strong agreement with the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from this side, and not in agreement with my hon. Friend who has just spoken. The mere fact that we are popularly elected persons makes it more desirable that we should discuss publicly everything we can, so that the public may know what we are saying. My hon. Friend answered his own argument when he said that this is not a military, naval or air Debate, but a civil Debate. I hope that we shall accept what has been the general rule of the House, and continue to discuss the matter in open Session. Particularly, I hope that we shall not prejudge in this Debate the whole subject of Secret Sessions.
  5.2 p.m.
  Dr. Haden Guest:There is only one point I would put to the Committee, in answer to the speech of an hon. Gentleman opposite. If there is any time when we should not have a Secret Session, it is when a Minister has made a statement, because if we did so, it would give the impression that something was being said which the general public ought not to be allowed to hear, and that would be a most undesirable state of affairs. For that reason alone we should not have a Secret Session. I shall confine myself to that remark, and I hope that the general sense of the Committee is with me.
  Mr. Attlee: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair," by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  5.3 p.m.
  Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: I would congratulate the Minister of Home Security on the statement which he has made. I do not think that anything which I propose to say will give information to the enemy, but if any hon. Member thinks that I am doing so and that any statement I make may be of value to the enemy, I hope that he will draw my attention to it. My object is rather to make constructive suggestions on a matter which is recognised to be of importance in the country and to the House of Commons. We have not had a Debate on the subject since just after the beginning of the war, and it is—without giving information to the enemy—of growing importance every day. Moreover, as the war has developed, it may be that the Government's advisers have been able to obtain from the war itself a considerable amount of information about protection from bombardment. On one or two of the points which I shall raise I know that experiences gained up to now can be given—again, that is not giving information to the enemy—because they are largely mere recapitulation of the enemy's tactics and the type of bomb he is using, as well as of what has been found to be effective against them. The enemy has full knowledge of all those matters.
  The largest part of the Minister's speech dealt with personnel. That is a side of Civil Defence which has engaged much attention, and I would like to add my word of congratulation in regard to that enormous organisation of A.R.P. workers and others who have, through a very difficult winter, performed their tasks with growing efficiency and enthusiasm, which has not waned, in spite of the absence of raids in most districts. I do not know why it is, but in this country we seem to go in waves of enthusiasm. In the autumn of 1938, when the evening papers were telling us to keep cool, there was a tremendous wave of enthusiasm for A.R.P., and there was again at the beginning of the war. Perhaps there is a little less enthusiasm now, and a little more experience. The organisation is better trained.

  1303
  Can the Parliamentary Secretary give us any information about the response to the appeal for additional staff, to replace some of those who are going into the Armed Forces and to make a reserve of trained personnel? I have heard from some districts that the response is not too good. Indeed—I do not know whether I may mention a particular place, but as I am quoting from a newspaper cutting perhaps it does no harm to say it—for instance, in Manchester, the regional commissioner tells us that he is desperately short of additional volunteers to meet the appeal which was recently made by the Home Office. This refers to various branches of Civil Defence personnel. I know there have been appeals on the wireless that auxiliary firemen who may have moved from one district to another should report at the fire stations in the districts to which they have moved. There has been a certain amount of personnel slipping away from the services. That personnel has been trained at some expense. A man may be only a stretcher bearer, but I am told that it takes three months to train a stretcher bearer, who must have a considerable knowledge if he is to be efficient in first-aid. He must also be a strong man to be able to do his work properly.
  If men who volunteered are now drifting away, sometimes into other services, attention must be given to the matter. I know that in country districts the enthusiasm which at one time obtained for volunteering for A.R.P. services has gone to the more fashionable "parashooter" corps or Local Defence Volunteers. That tends to deplete the services. With admirable motives, people may feel that the Local Defence Volunteer Corps is a more dangerous occupation. Quite unnecessary slurs have been thrown on A.R.P. workers, and I know that in a particular district these services have been much reduced by reason of persons going into the Local Defence Volunteers. Industrial work is being keyed up, and, as the Minister said, in munition areas men are working for very long hours and cannot be relied upon for training, and sometimes not for the necessary practices to make them efficient in their work. I know of one small town where there used to be great unemployment but now, in the day-time, practically none of the
  1304
  A.R.P. staff is in the town; they are all working on munitions in camps, at a distance, it may be, of 10 miles. If there were a raid on that town, the A.R.P. and defence services would be entirely depleted.
  I am dealing with the question of whether it is necessary to have a closer control over the personnel of the services. The Minister rightly said that, owing to the great number of people involved, it was necessary to have the voluntary system. I am not necessarily advocating a compulsory system, but I would point out that there are different degrees of compulsion. There is the extreme form of compulsion which empowers the local authorities' officers to commandeer the services of individuals. I do not think there is any need to use that rigorous form of compulsion, but to put those who have volunteered, and who have been trained, upon a more definite basis of service would be an advantage at the present time. In all voluntary organisations, the tendency is for a few people to do all the work, and perhaps that tendency exists in some parts of these services. I believe that the time has come to give to those in authority greater control over the personnel.
  It has been suggested to me that something like the sort of control which is exercised over Territorials in peace-time would be applicable. A man who voluntarily joins the Territorials undertakes to do certain training. If he fails, he is liable to a fine. It has been represented to me by a number of persons working in Civil Defence services that such an arrangement in their service is now due. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that if the response to his appeal for volunteers is ineffective, he should not hesitate to go further in the direction suggested. Agricultural workers and miners are not allowed to leave agriculture and mining, and I do not know why A.R.P. workers should be allowed to leave A.R.P. work. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary, if he can, to give us some information on the response to the appeal. These Civil Defence services are of very great importance, and there has been a tendency, partly due to the necessity for cutting down the paid staff last autumn and partly due to other causes, to under-rate their value. So far as I know, the experience has been that

  1305
  efficient Civil Defence services are invaluable in saving lives during air attacks.
  Turning to the other main question, that of shelters, I was glad that the Minister was able to tell us that immense progress had been made, but even so I would like to impress upon the Government that their slogan should still be "More and better shelters." The Minister told us that some 20,000,000 people were now covered by the provision of shelters, but, of course, that figure of 20,000,000 includes every kind of shelter, and some of them are better than others. I disagree that it is defeatist to talk about shelters, and I disagree with the point of view of the Minister when he said that the deep-shelter complex is one to be avoided. Surely that is a remnant of the old spirit that stood in the way of our troops in France during the last war getting tin hats or concrete pill-boxes. That is a fundamental mistake. Let us by all means be realists. I understand the point of view of the workers, to whom the Minister referred, who said that they did not want better shelters than their families, but let us be realists. We are very short of skilled engineers. We do not want them killed by bombs any more than we want our soldiers, sailors or airmen killed by the enemy. If it is possible and if we can provide the material, surely it is fantastic to suggest that the personal consideration of the skilled aircraft mechanic, that he does not want to be better protected than his wife, should stand in the way. He must be better protected because he is vital to the war effort of this country. I agree that that case of the skilled engineer is an extreme one, but the better protection we can get for the whole of the population, the less likely we are to be subject to air attack, and the less effective that air attack will be if and when it does come. Experience from the war in Spain onwards has shown, I believe, the immense advantage which protection gives. I believe it has been found that the shelters erected mainly against blast and splinters give very satisfactory results in such raids as there have been on this country. That is excellent, but I did not understand the attitude of the Minister on this question of improved shelters.
  I hope that considerations of mere financial cost are not influencing the Government's opinion at the present time. If that were so, it would be a great misfortune.
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  The only consideration should be that of the availability of labour and of materials. The argument which the Minister used, that it was better to spread shelter as widely as possible rather than have a few very good shelters, certainly appeals to me. But, having spread your shelter very widely and having apparently provided shelter for nearly half the population of this country—shelter of some sort—surely what he himself went on to describe, namely, the sort of shelter that could be improved as time and opportunity allowed, is the right principle to adopt. I refer to the two-stage shelter—a shelter that is now blast and splinter proof and which can be improved later on if labour and material are available and if other factors are favourable.
  The real consideration which must govern the amount of shelter provided is the availability of materials and labour. I understand that the existing programmes of the local authorities are being held up by a shortage of bricks, that is to say, not in brickyards but on the sites. I have always been told that the brickworks are not working to capacity, that they are working short time and that the difficulty is one of transport. That is a matter with which the Ministry should be dealing energetically. We know that the railways have been very much overtaxed in recent months and that brickworks have rather widely used road transport, which also has been difficult to obtain, but the provision of bricks is a matter of urgency, and plans should already be in existence to deal with this matter. I should like to see the Government commandeer all the transport necessary to ensure that the brickworks are kept working full out, as fully as if they were working for the Ministry of Supply instead of the Ministry of Home Security. [Interruption.] An hon. Member says—and I quite agree—that the bricks should be in stock in each area, but I am afraid that the areas of which I am thinking are in rather a different position. They cannot get hold of the bricks to complete their shelter programme, and until they have completed their shelter programme it is no use trying to lay in a local supply.
  Then we come to the question of labour. The last returns that I was able to obtain applied to the middle of March,

  1307
  when undoubtedly the bad weather had been having an effect upon employment in the building industry, and there may have been more men unemployed then than there are now. The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) made a public speech recently and said there were 150,000 building-trade operatives unemployed. I would like to know what is the position about building operatives. If there are any unemployed in England at the present time, it reflects upon the whole programme. We may get raids in time, and if there are unemployed men and materials available, the fault lies in the organisation. There is, of course, a shortage of steel, but are there any substitutes for steel for reinforcing concrete? Is it a fact or not that thicker concrete will make up for the absence of reinforced steel? What is the objection in these days to making an appeal for volunteers to work after their usual occupations in order to do some of the unskilled work connected with building shelters? I can see no reason why they should not do so. There are volunteers in all sorts of other work. Volunteers, including schoolboys and others, are asked to do agricultural work. If there is full employment in the building trade—not if there is unemployment—and if the difficulty is shortage of labour, then people should be asked to do overtime after they have finished their work in their offices, shops or other sedentary occupations, at a time like this, when nothing should stand in the way of getting these jobs done.
  There is a very considerable variation between the standards of protection of one local authority and another. I am grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for the answer that he gave me last week, saying that the Ministry were taking power to bring those who have lagged behind up to the standard that the Ministry think desirable. However, I must remind him that in the past the impression has been created that the Ministry were more anxious to damp down some of the boroughs which were most enterprising than to push on those which were not. I see him smiling. It may have been that some of those boroughs concerned—and they should not be mentioned by name—had plans which for technical reasons were arguable. However, that impression has been created widely, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will
  1308
  obliterate that impression by saying very insistently that he is putting the fullest possible drive into the task of seeing that all authorities complete their programmes. Then I would say, "Do not be satisfied with that but go on and have more shelters." I am not clear from what the Minister said whether this proposition of the two-stage shelter has really been put before the local authorities or not. I would like to be sure that it has been put before the local authorities, because, after all, they initiate these schemes, and unless expert advisers of the Government recommend a scheme to the local authorities, it will not be taken up. I spoke to the head of a county organisation the other day, and he was not aware of what shelters were provided by industrial firms and commercial firms in his area.
  Under the Government's scheme so far, there has been a certain amount of overlapping. As I understand it, local authorities are not responsible for what a private firm provides for its workpeople, and, therefore, the position is a little anomalous. There are various people responsible for shelters. The local authority is not responsible for all the shelters provided in its area. There are persons with means above £250; there are businesses, commercial firms, and, above all, there are local authorities. It may be that some firms have shelters which are used only during the day. Those shelters should be available during the night. It may be that the local authority is providing shelters for a man while he is in the street, that the landlord of the flats in which the man lives is providing a shelter for him at his home, and that the employer is providing him with a shelter at the factory where he works. There may be some waste of available shelters in that way. Should not the officers of the local authorities be instructed to obtain from all sources the facts about the shelters in their districts?
  I would ask the Home Secretary's Department to adopt the slogan of the Ministry of Supply, which we see everywhere, and "go to it." An immense amount of work has been done recently: a great deal of experience must have been gained from the progress of the war up to now; but there are still serious gaps, and we ask that those gaps should be filled, and that then a further stage should be covered. I hope that, having spread the shelter accommodation as

  1309
  much as possible, the Department will not be satisfied, but will go on, especially in the east coast and other vulnerable districts, to use all the available manpower to improve, and again improve, the shelter accommodation.
  5.32 p.m.
  Mr. Noel-Baker:I find it difficult this afternoon to keep my mind very closely on the Debate while the battle rages in France upon which the fate of the country may depend. If the front in France is our front, a front of vital importance to us, we are quite prepared to face with courage a future in which there may be a front in England, which will be vital to France. For that reason, the Committee listened with interest and appreciation to the statement of the Minister this afternoon. We have never treated air-raid precautions as a party matter in this House, though we on these benches have sometimes thought it our duty, without any party spirit, to say that we thought that the Government were making too slow progress and to express our alarm at that lack of imagination which they showed. For that reason I take the greater pleasure in saying that in recent months there has been a great improvement, and it would be foolish and ungenerous not to recognise the progress which has been made. There is to-day, what there was not two years ago, a real central and regional administration. It may not be strong enough; some may think that it is not rightly manned; some may think that it is not inspired by a living picture of what air raids are like when one comes to live through them. But at least a central administration exists to direct and guide the country.
  There is a warning system, with sirens which really work. We have had a universal distribution of gas masks, and now of new filters; a large proportion of the population know how to make an ordinary room reasonably safe for an hour or two—and that may be enough—against a gas attack; and that I think of great importance because it may well be that Hitler is saving poison gas as the big strategic surprise for his campaign against England. There is the system of fire brigades, with some training, and, as the Home Secretary said, not only with adequate, but with complete equipment. We have casualty, first-aid, and hospital services, which are not only adequate but
  1310
  efficient. Demolition and decontamination squads exist, are equipped and are under competent direction. These are not negligible achievements, and we ought to express our appreciation to the Ministers who have initiated them, to the local authorities, which have worked them, and to the great army of paid workers and volunteers. We owe a great debt of gratitude to these volunteers, and I was glad to hear the Home Secretary say that he thought the whole thing a magnificent example of voluntary effort. Sometimes it has not been easy to be an air-raid warden in the last nine months. They have been made the object of public ridicule, even of public obloquy and contempt. It is hard to maintain such an organisation over a long period when nothing happens; it is still harder to maintain it against the other sorts of work which seem more urgent in the public interest. It is not an accident that the Home Secretary had to make a call for more volunteers in the past week.
  I know that there are some of my hon. Friends on these benches who think that the army of A.R.P. workers is beginning to lose its man-power, and that perhaps drastic steps will have to be taken to reorganise it. Some say that the whole service should be put on a new footing, under more direct public control, as a kind of Civil Defence Corps. I do not want to enlarge on that: I hope that my hon. Friends will do so later on; but I want to pay my tribute to these workers. The other day in Derby I had the privilege of seeing a practice demonstration of these services in action—fire fighting, first-aid, ambulance, demolition, and all the rest. It was a demonstration that did credit to all concerned, and certainly it was an encouragement to the citizens of Derby. Last week I met the chief air-raid warden of one of the districts of London, and he told me that he had organised the distribution, by house-to-house visits, of no fewer than 12,000 new filters, out of a possible 13,000, in the space of 48 hours. Such things show that this service is alive and that it is inspired by a splendid spirit. But I am not yet convinced that we have done all we can, all we ought to do, in face of the dangers with which the nation is confronted.
  We are beginning to understand those dangers all too well. We have seen the Blitzkrieg in action in five different campaigns, in Poland, Norway, Holland,

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  Belgium and France. We have seen that everywhere it follows a common plan; it is all based on the experiment of Guernica a few years ago. It is the knock-out blow in the air which is the decisive factor in the success which the Blitzkrieg attains. That knock-out blow in the air consists in dropping thousands of tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs, not on military objectives, but indiscriminately on the civilian population. It is designed to smash the whole civil and military administration, to add to military confusion by breaking down social life, driving the civil population on to the roads, and machine-gunning them when they get there. It is designed to throw the defence into disorder, and to break the national will to resist. How successful it has been up to date is shown by the fact that in the countries of four of our Allies the righting is over, and that on the soil of France and Britain we harbour four refugee Governments to-day.
  So far, this air attack has worked as Goering meant that it should. It has driven the population out of their homes. The casualties, in fact, have been pretty heavy; but even if they have been light, it has been shown that this air bombardment is far more demoralising than any other bombardment we have known, and that it succeeds in hampering the national defence against invasion and in breaking the national will. It may be that the magnificent valour of the French Army and the heroic calm of the French people, combined with the work of our Navy and Air Force, about which no one can say too much, may save us from invasion. But no one can count on that. We have no right to think that air attacks on this country will be less heavy, made with a lesser weight of bombs, than they have been in France and Belgium. Are we adequately prepared against such attacks? We have done a lot, but I think we could do more, and that we could do it more quickly. We have, as the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) said, the framework of administration, we have the labour, we have the materials. If there is anything that we have not done, as the hon. Member said, we should go on and do it.
  There are two aspects of air-raid precautions about which I feel anxiety. The first is, not evacuation—we are to discuss
  1312
  that to-morrow—but the movement of population from the most menaced regions. I admire in many of their aspects the plans that the Government have made for evacuation, but I do not believe that they are on a large enough scale, and I am certain that the French Army in its desperate fight has been greatly aided by the much larger-scale evacuation which the French Government had planned and carried out. I am certain that France has been right very largely to evacuate Paris in the last few weeks. That evacuation has caused great hardship and loss to Frenchmen: you could not be in France for a week without hearing about it; but events have proved the Government right. The choice is not between evacuation or not evacuating. There is bound to be a very large movement of populations, far larger than the movement for which the Government have planned. The choice is whether you are going to have it planned or not planned. In the last war millions of people left London. I am certain that if bombs were coming near, many more people would leave our big centres of population to-day—and I think they ought to do so, in the national interest.
  I am not proposing that the Government should make plans for the billeting of x millions more of refugees—they have not the time—but I hope that they have already made plans for dealing with a large exodus of people from the south of Britain. I hope that they have planned the roads for one-way traffic. I hope that they have made big stocks of food in the western parts. I hope that they have moved or are moving animals, particularly cows and sheep, so as to keep up the food supply, apart from the other great advantages which would be obtained. I hope they are building up stocks of simple equipment which will be required for making improvised camps. If these things were done—I hope they have been—we could look forward to a very big movement of population without anything disastrous resulting from it. Again I point to the example of France, where great panic, suffering and loss have been avoided as a result of the careful preparation that was made.
  The second thing to which I want to draw the attention of the Government very specially is that of shelters, of which both the Home Secretary and my hon. Friend

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  the Member for North Cumberland have spoken. If anyone was inclined to say that I over-stated the movement of population that will take place, I would reply that, if they are right, that only increases the obligation of the Government to protect the population against bombs by shelter, because, of course, evacuation is part of a common policy with shelter itself. We have always said on these Benches, we who have sat here in recent years, that the population ought to have the best bomb-proof shelter which it was practicable to give, that the cost should not be regarded as an objection, and that the Government themselves should pay; and many hon. Members in all quarters of the House have agreed with us when we have put that forward. I can quote my right hon. Friend who is now the Minister of Supply. He said after Munich, in November, 1938, that we ought to have effective shelter of some kind for every man, woman and child in the country. We ought to have shelter accommodation for the whole of the population. He knew that that would cost a lot of money, but we had to face it. It was bound to be a highly expensive proposition, but the Government, nevertheless, should carry it through.
  We have never felt that the Government have really shared that view. Long ago—it seems very long ago, but it is only three years—they still believed in what was then called the policy of dispersal and the refuge-room; and, if I remember rightly, the Parliamentary Secretary himself was one of those who used to criticise their attitude in that regard. The refuge-room really meant that the average citizen was to stay downstairs at home until his house fell about his ears. The first bomb in Spain blew that policy to pieces; but the Government, in fact, clung to it until October, 1938. Then at last the Minister responsible, who is now our Ambassador in Spain, said in the same Debate, in answer to the present Minister of Supply, that the experiences of the last 12 months had changed his view and we must have a more comprehensive shelter policy than had been contemplated in the past; and he went on to say that that policy must not only include blast-proof shelter, but, where possible, bomb-proof shelter as well. But I am afraid that the Government have never fully accepted the implications of that speech. I think that, subconsciously at least, they have been
  1314
  guided by two principles: First, that it would be too difficult, it would make too big a dislocation to provide what used to be called deep shelter—and I will say a word about "deep" in a moment—for the whole population; and, second, that as you could not give anything but blast-proof and splinter-proof shelter to everybody, you must not try to give anything better to anyone; it would not be fair to do so; it might even be dangerous, because everybody would rush for the best shelter. For these reasons, they concluded, you must aim at giving a minimum shelter available to all. These principles, if they were in fact accepted by the Government, either consciously or subconsciously, were, I believe, utterly pernicious, and I want to urge upon the Government that, at this moment of national peril, they should sweep them completely away, should make a new start, and should now use every effort, as the hon. Member for North Cumberland demanded, to provide more and better shelter for the people, to ensure that everybody has a shelter to which he can go, and to improve the quality of the protection which the shelter gives in the highest possible degree.
  If they are to do that, they must really abandon another principle upon which their policy has been based. That policy has been this. They said that when a man was at work the employer must provide the shelter, and they made that a statutory obligation; but when he was at home he must provide it for himself. The Government would provide it for him when he was neither at home nor at work; in other words, when he was in the street. Therefore local authorities were allowed to provide 20 per cent., 15 per cent., 12½per cent. of the population with public shelters in the street. But when it was pointed out to the Government that the individual could not provide a shelter for himself that was any good, because in a great number of cases he was too poor, they said, "All right, we will provide it for him if he has less than £5 a week, or £300 a year if he has some children"; and they invented the Anderson shelter. But anybody who has more than that minimum income still either has, in accordance with the principle of individual responsibility, to provide a shelter for himself or go without.
  I think that that principle was always wrong. It was wrong in theory for two

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  main reasons. First, most individuals, as we found out in practice, could not make shelters for themselves; and even if they could, they would not. They were too idle, too careless, too busy. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary will think that I am helping the enemy if I say that he told me in private conversation the other day that he himself would have no shelter, if the Germans caught him in bed. If he has not, how many other people above the £5 a week limit are without shelters? In the second place, the individual cannot make as good a shelter as the public authority can make except at a much higher cost per head. A public authority can make a shelter for 50 people which will give much greater protection at a given sum of money per head than the private man can obtain for himself and his family at that same sum. For these reasons, the thing was wrong in principle. And it has certainly been proved wrong in practice, because unless the Government had departed from it and had provided Anderson shelters, would the Home Secretary have been able to give his figure of 20,000,000 this afternoon? Certainly not. A very large proportion indeed of the shelter which has been provided consists of what the Government themselves have done. I hope that the Government will now wholly abandon the principle of personal responsibility and will make a completely new start. I ask them to consider very seriously the deficiencies which the Home Secretary said existed this afternoon. I have figures about these deficiencies. I believe that the Germans know them. I believe that if I told every figure in my possession, both general and local, the enemy would gain no new knowledge. I do not propose to do it, but I will tell the Ministers in private what my information is, and I am sure that they will agree with me that it means that we need a new effort of the kind for which the hon. Member for North Cumberland asked.
  There are two special points which I want to put to the Parliamentary Secretary about this general shelter situation. The first is this. The lack of shelter is perhaps worst where the danger is greatest, namely, among the very poor, in districts where it is not possible even to have the Anderson shelter. These are just the places where the houses give the least
  1316
  protection, where the congestion is greatest—in some parts of London it is 200 inhabitants to the acre—and where escape is hardest. The second thing is, as I have said already, that a very large proportion of our shelter, outside the factories, consists of the Anderson shelter. I do not want to run that shelter down. When it is properly erected, it is pretty good. I think that it would reduce casualties by at least two-thirds, and perhaps even more, but it certainly has weaknesses. One of them is the entrance, which is very seldom properly protected, though it can be by a very elaborate arrangement of sandbags. The second defect is an extremely important one. If you think of what air warfare has really been like in Poland, Belgium and elsewhere, you can readily understand that the Anderson shelter might not make you feel very safe. You have no protection against the noise; and I do not believe that the families of the workers are going to stay, with only Anderson shelters, for a prolonged period of bombardment. I think they will either go to other shelters or they will go away. That being so, I want to urge upon the Government that they should in the danger areas—and we all know what they are—press on with the provision of more and better shelters. That means in practice erecting where they do not now exist either the strong brick shelter or the trench concrete shelter, such as the City of Westminster and many other places provide; it means taking off the 12½ per cent. or 15 per cent. or 20 per cent. limit of the total population which has been imposed upon the local authorities, and encouraging them to make more of those shelters if they are at all likely to be needed by the population.
  It means improving those shelters, if you can do it; and I was very particularly glad to hear the Home Secretary say that he thought that that could be done. Experts tell me that many of these shelters, for example, the Westminster trench shelters, could be improved enormously by very simple means. You could dig a moat round the sides—what miners call a "give"—so that the blast does not come direct against the wall of the shelters if there is a near miss. You could take the earth off the roof and put on more concrete. I am told by experts that if you did that to some of these Westminster shelters, if you added another

  1317
  15 or 18 inches of concrete to the root, which the structures would easily carry, you would make them stand up to the 100–lb. bomb. That is a fact of supreme importance.
  The hon. Member for North Cumberland very rightly said that a great deal of confusion had been introduced into this subject by the use of the word "deep." Of course, if you want absolute protection against all bombs, either you have to go very deep into the earth or you have to have a very great thickness of concrete. But not all bombs will be of the heaviest character. The heavier the bomb that the German is obliged to use to get his result, the fewer bombs he can drop. Quite a light shelter will stand up to the 20–lb. bomb, the so-called "personnel" bomb, which the Germans use for aerodromes and such places. The Anderson shelter will certainly stand up to it if it is properly prepared. But the bomb which the Germans have used in by far the greatest numbers is their 50 kilo. bomb, about 100 lbs. If we could make a lot of trench shelters to stand up against that, we should go very far in wiping out the effect which the Germans could hope to obtain by their air bombardments. I think that many more good shelters could be quickly prepared in places which have not yet been used. Every steel-frame building in the country ought to have a shelter in its basement. I remember the Parliamentary Secretary—it was only at the end of 1938—complaining to the Government that they had not allowed the local authority of Leeds to make a shelter under an omnibus station, where for the cost of £1,500 they could have given real protection to hundreds of people. In the light of history, that was a crime; and I am glad to say that that policy has been changed. In Derby, in the municipal buildings now being erected there, there are to be strong shelters for 1,200 people, perhaps for more. In many such buildings a high degree of protection could be given. In some perhaps, the use of sandbags would be required; that might be done by voluntary labour, although I know the objections to that. In any case, the basement and perhaps the first floor of every building in the country could be turned into a public shelter. If the Parliamentary Secretary wants an example, there is an admirable one at the King's Cross Garage.
  1318
  I have not understood, and I cannot find experts who understand, why the Government have not organised the under ground railway stations as additional shelters. Perhaps it would mean new entrances and exits; if so, then make them. I do not know why in some places tunnelling should not be carried out. I know that at Luton it was not successful, because there was not a competent engineer on the job, and there was not the right kind of soil. But I am told that in Nottingham, Newcastle, Birmingham and perhaps Sheffield tunnelling in the rising ground of these places could be carried out at a low cost per head, and that this would give a great deal of very effective shelter. I know that all these things could be done and done quite quickly. I was told the other day by the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks)—I hope it is not still true, but it was not long ago—that 150,000 building-trade operatives were out of work. If it is still true, they could be put at once to work. We have ample supplies of bricks and concrete—
  Mr. Quibell: Plenty.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Plenty now, says my hon. Friend, and he knows. There are many small contractors and many architects who are not only out of a job, but who are almost starving and who are just the men we need. Their knowledge could be brought together with this unused skilled labour and idle materials to improve the protection of our nation. But to do that the Government must take it in hand, must organise it and give orders. I am criticising nobody, but I would like to suggest that the Government should take a new man of great dynamic power and tell him to get on with the job.
  But—and this is the last substantive point that I want to make—if the Government are to do it, they must pay. It may cost £50,000,000 or £100,000,000, but what does that matter? The nation's freedom is worth that sum, and we can certainly afford it. But I do not think the local authorities can afford it. The Home Secretary said this afternoon that the financial factor had not obstructed the provision of shelters. I beg him to believe that he is wrong. I could give him dozens of examples which support the other view. He said that the Government would pay 86 per cent. in any case

  1319
  and that only 3 per cent. would fall on the rates. If they can pay 86 per cent. why not pay 100 per cent.? It is no longer a question of making local authorities exercise due economy. The trouble is that they are not spending enough money. The Government now want to force them to do these things. I am quite certain that the burden already thrown upon local authorities is as much as they should be asked to bear. The Government used to tell us that the cases where more than 2d. will fall on the rates will be rare. But the expenditure on A.R.P. in my own constituency has amounted to a 1s. 4d. rate—and it was paid out of the rates—and on top of that there is to be another 6d. for the provision of shelters for schoolchildren, towards which they will get only a 50 per cent. grant.
  I think the Government should pool our available resources and get on with the job. Experience has proved our danger. It has also proved that preparation pays. Last winter I was in Finland, and there I saw the shelters which the Government had made for the whole population. Everybody had a shelter; and it was a police offence not to go to a shelter when the sirens sounded, unless one had special exemption to stay in one's own home or above ground. That policy enormously reduced the casualties which Finland suffered from Russian raids. Two years ago the Japanese burnt thousands of Chinese civilians in the worst of all recorded air raids against the city of Chungking. The Chinese Government made tunnels in the rocky hillside, and I am still getting letters from Chinese friends, written in those tunnels. People work and, if necessary, sleep in those tunnels. As a result, Chungking is still the capital of China, and that fact has been of quite immense importance to Chinese resistance. The preparations for which we ask will cost some money; will mean a great new effort; but may save many British lives and they may be a vital factor in the victory which we shall win.
  6.7 p.m.
  Mr. Quibell: I think that most of us who listened this afternoon to the statement made by the Minister of Home Security found it satisfactory. It was a statement that gave me, at any rate, a good deal of confidence, because a great
  1320
  deal of work of a useful character has been done and a great deal of progress has been made. But I want to say—and I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will give us some assurance with regard to it—that in some of the most vulnerable areas which one knows not a single bit of earth or covering of any kind is put upon the Anderson shelters. The Anderson shelter is a very good shelter, but the consequence of this neglect is that an occupant might as well sit in front of a loose corrugated sheet as be inside. I would like to know what steps, if any, the Ministry of Home Security is taking towards local authorities which as yet have not compelled individuals who have these shelters to spend a few hours of their time in further strengthening and protecting them. In many industrial towns where men are working only eight hours a day I do not think it is too much to expect them to protect their shelters with earth, which is available in nearly every case. The Minister should know that while he may have given a large number of shelters to people who have erected them, many of them cannot be used in the case of air raids, for the reason that there has been a lack of proper advice, either by the Home Department or by local councils, in connection with their erection. Men have been told to dig down three or four feet in the earth, and next morning they have found two feet of water in the place for the proposed shelter. This is not a rare occurrence. Within 20 yards of my own home I have seen 60 to 70 buckets of water taken every day out of a hole. I think it would be wise if a circular letter could be sent to local authorities instructing them to take over these shelters and to give advice as to the depth at which shelters would be safe.
  I was concerned with what the Minister said respecting old disused houses. If anything could make me laugh, it was that you could get an old house, totally unfitted for occupation, with timbers from top to bottom full of dry rot, and reconstruct it as a sort of air-raid protection. I hope the Minister does not issue to local authorities a circular letter advising them to provide shelters of the kind he described in his speech to-day. Really, it is almost too foolish to laugh at. With regard to the position of shelters, I think the policy of street shelters has been the right policy. In my experience they are very good shelters, and if we have to

  1321
  spend money, I would rather spend it in this way than on deep shelters which provide us with grave problems, particularly that of water supply. I entirely agree that in parts of Sheffield, South Wales and other places shelters cut into hillsides would be the cheapest and most efficient form of shelter.
  There is no truth in the statement that there is lack of proper labour for the provision of shelters. The Minister is grossly misinformed if he thinks there is a lack of skilled labour. In my own town skilled men are working as labourers because they have no skilled work to do. In a firm with which I am associated skilled men are putting up fencing, and dozens of men in my neighbourhood are working as labourers for labourers' money to-day. The fact is that so far as the Government are concerned they have never attempted to organise the skilled labour in the country for the purpose of providing these shelters. I cannot understand why building contractors cannot be brought together to solve this difficulty. It has been solved, so far as shelters are concerned, in Scunthorpe.
  Now I want to refer to a matter which I raised the other day with respect to these shelters. It has been said that there is a shortage of shelters, and I was astounded when the Parliamentary Secretary replied, to a Question that I put to him, that 624 shelters were sent to Scunthorpe and refused by people there. That was his answer, as I understood it. I am gravely perturbed about this matter, because it shows there is slackness in the Department or by the railway company that should have been responsible for delivering the shelters. These shelters, which were wanted in other parts of the country, were sent to Scunthorpe as far back as 16th December. In one case they were sent out of Frodingham works and had to go only half a mile. They could have been carried from the works, which are on the main line, but they are there now. I saw them before I came to the House this week.
  The answer that I got was that 624 people in the Scunthorpe area refused to accept the shelters. All that I can say is that the Minister has been gravely misinformed. I also, like the Home Office, can use the telephone, and I telephoned the Town Clerk of Scunthorpe this morning and found that there was no justification
  1322
  for the statement. So far as they are aware, they have made no new application for shelters in the last day or two. I should like to know how this has happened. The number of days, including bank holidays, is 1,254, and the amount of demurrage would be nearly enough to pay somebody to look after this matter. Who pays the demurrage charge for these particular wagons? I am not saying that the Department is aware of the fact, but I have seen the tickets on these wagons, and in some cases they have been taken off and other dated tickets put in their place, in a manner too obvious to take in a school child. The tickets have been changed immediately inquiries have been made by the Department. At Scunthorpe, Chapeltown and other places these wagons have stood there for six months. We want trucks badly. Even the men in the coal yard have been talking about this matter, seeing that these 10 wagons have been standing there for six months.
  From information given to me similar happenings have been occurring all over the country. I have information which the Minister can have if he chooses, which is correct. Indeed, the position is so disgusting that even some of the coal-owners have taken the matter up, because they are short of wagons. They are wondering why the Minister of Home Security has not taken steps to see that these shelters were transported to places where they are wanted. I do not absolve the railway company of some responsibility in the matter, but I should like to know whether someone is to be called to account for keeping these wagons there for six months and thus depriving some of the public of these Anderson shelters. It is nothing less than a scandal that public money should provide these shelters, that they should be kept in rolling stock for this length of time, and that on the top of that we should have to pay a huge sum for demurrage. It has to come out of the taxpayers' and ratepayers' pockets in one form or another, and it is nothing less than a gross scandal if somebody is not called to account, including, if necessary, the goods agent in this particular case. I should not have raised this matter again but for the fact that a similar state of affairs has existed at Wombwell, Doncaster, Barnsley, Chapeltown and other places. I cannot personally substantiate these cases, but

  1323
  they were given to me by a responsible man on the railway, and if it is true, it is a scandal that nothing so far has been done.
  6.19 p.m.
  Sir Irving Albery: The Minister in his statement referred to the call he is making for additional volunteers for these services, and I want to say a few words on that subject. If you are to get the number of volunteers which are required for part-time duty, there must, in the recruiting, be leadership and some kind of organisation. When we wanted to raise the Territorials, we had the County Territorial Association to help. As to the method of recruiting, you should, if possible, associate together people who have common interests. When people are on duty for a long time together it makes a great deal of difference when they are associating with people who have interests in common with them and things to talk about. With reference to the machinery, I would suggest that the political organisations throughout the country, which are somewhat crippled at the moment, should be made use of. I believe an attempt was made, although not a very successful one, to use these political organisations for the national purpose under the Ministry of Information. There may be a good reason for that—it is very difficult entirely to dissociate politics from anything like propaganda and information.
  There is, however, nothing whatever political about air-raid precautions. In these political organisations most of the people are in the habit of meeting together and spending their time doing various things. They all want to render some national service, and if some useful national service could be put upon them, you could not have better bodies to undertake it. I see no reason why political organisations of all parties should not join together for this purpose under the Home Office. I do not think it is impossible to form an organisation, and they would be of great assistance in this respect. Then there is the question of hours. A little time back men were asked to work 12 hours a day and the women eight hours a day. From what I can gather shifts of this kind are very trying and not very convenient to the people. From what I have been told, they would far sooner work 24 hours on and have 24 hours off.
  1324
  By doing that, you would get a larger number of hours worked by the same number of people, and they would get 24 hours off for other things and for looking after their families. The present shift basis interferes with their lives much more than 24 hours on and 24 hours off would do.
  Then there is the question of payment. The present payment is £2 a week for women and £3 for men. I have known some cases of people who have left employment where they were not earning £2 2a week and have gone into air-raid precautions because it is better. On the other hand, you have a great many people doing responsible jobs, which incidentally a great many people would do for nothing, and would give their whole time. These people have not been encouraged enough. As regards those people you have to keep as a permanent staff, who must be paid, I think that the Auxiliary Fire Services and possibly the ambulance services should be considered, and whoever occupies a responsible position should be paid something better than £2 or £3 per week. I know cases myself of people who have actually given up higher paid employment to take on this work, and it naturally becomes a burden if we are in for a long war.
  My last point is this: I think it is vitally necessary that every service should know who is responsible. The ambulance service is a very bad example of the point I am putting. It is nominally under the Ministry of Health for payment, and in some other directions it is under the Home Office. Actually it is run by the county council. The result is that the people do not know their father and mother. Whenever a point arises they are told it concerns the Ministry of Health, but that if it is a question of pay it is a matter for the Home Office. The county council, which actually run the service, have always regarded it as a sort of stepchild thrust upon them to look after. That does not make for good service, and it does not make the people happy. It does not make for efficiency. Nearly all the air-raid precaution services are run by the Home Office, and I think that the ambulance services should go there too; they should all be under one organisation.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: During the week-end I had the privilege of meeting

  1325
  the workshop representatives of a large number of workpeople and of moving about among men who are engaged in one or two of the largest factories in this country. The spirit which finds expression among those men, the energy which is being put into their work, and the atmosphere which prevails in those workshops, are an inspiration. If only this nation will harness that energy and that spirit to the work of providing for our defence, then I say, despite the present international situation, that this nation can become a formidable and powerful, indeed an impregnable fortress. It is against that background that I wish to take part in this Debate and, first, let me say calmly but quite openly, and as bluntly as I can, that that spirit to which I have referred does not find expression everywhere to the extent which is necessary if this nation is successfully to deal with the situation confronting us.
  For years I have followed closely what has been happening on the Continent, and my special interest in the problem of providing adequate air-raid shelter accommodation has been increased by the growing realisation, as a result of recent international developments, that the people who suffer most in air raids are those resident in large industrial areas. Recent events have proved that beyond all shadow of doubt. My interest in this matter was quickened recently by a visit which I made to an anti-aircraft unit. Whoever was responsible for the layout of that unit can claim credit for it. Provision has been made to enable the members of that unit to deal adequately with air attack and attention has been given to everything that calls for attention including the men's welfare as well as the efficiency of their equipment. As I came away from that visit, my mind returned to the problem of making adequate shelter accommodation for all the people in areas of that character. As a result of my quickened interest in the matter I made a tour of a number of industrial areas and what I saw in that tour has created some uneasiness in my mind. In order to ascertain who is responsible for the position and also to make sure of my facts, so that if I had an opportunity of speaking in Debate they could not be challenged, I addressed a series of Questions to the Home Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to reply to those Questions and in addition to provide
  1326
  me with copies of all the circulars sent out by the Home Office during the past 12 months. Had those circulars been acted on by those whose responsibility it is to do so, my uneasiness would not be as great as it is. While, after examining those circulars, I am not satisfied with the Government's policy, yet I say that had the advice tendered in those circulars been carried out, the position would be much better than it is at present. I find that in one circular the Minister himself confirms my uneasiness.
  It is particularly for the people in the lower grades of income that I wish to speak. I have read closely the trade journals which are concerned with this matter such as the "Builder," the "Architects' Journal" and publications of that character, and I find that, generally speaking, adequate air-raid shelter accommodation has been provided for those who are relatively well-placed but this has not yet been done for the people in the lower grades of income. I plead with the Parliamentary Secretary, who is largely responsible for the provision of shelter accommodation, and with the officials of the Ministry as a whole, to see that immediate and energetic action is taken to have the advice given in those circulars carried into effect in certain areas which I do not propose on this occasion to name. We find, from the experience of Rotterdam, how essential it is that effect should be given to this plea.
  I was pleased to hear the tribute which the Home Secretary paid to those public-spirited men and women who, prior to the outbreak of war, devoted much time to making themselves efficient to play a part in the event of air attack on this country. But, as I pointed out at a conference which took place in connection with this matter, there is a certain small section of the community, whose forefathers were responsible for putting into slums the class of people to which I belong, and ft is this section which is mainly responsible for the recent outcry against the right hon. Gentleman's expenditure on air-raid precautions. Speeches were made by them in much the same kind of spirit as that which existed 100 years ago. Slum houses were considered good enough for our people 100 years ago, and we find that there are those who want slum defences provided for our people to-day. But it is to the everlasting credit of the

  1327
  right hon. Gentleman and a number of those associated with him that they did not respond to the clamour raised by certain individuals in this country.
  Even as it is, the position is still not good enough. I have in mind the fact that with that spirit to which I alluded at the outset, this island of ours could be made a mighty and formidable fortress. That spirit must find expression in organising the defence of our people. The probability is that attacks will be made on great industrial centres in this country. Two months ago in this House during a Debate on the Ministry of Supply, I said that few people in this country had been more critical of the Nazis than I had, but that I have never under-rated them. As a result of closely following the development of that party, some of us have realised that having pursued a certain policy internally, they then proceed to apply that policy internationally. We recognise what is likely to happen if they are successful. Most hon. and right hon. Gentlemen here believe and hope they will not be successful, but we have now reached a situation in which we ought to make provision for the worst eventuality that may occur. The right way of dealing with that position is to devote the maximum of energy to preparing adequate air-raid shelter accommodation for our people.
  The right hon. Gentleman said there were gaps to be filled but that he would not specify the areas. As I have already said, I intend to follow his example and I shall not specify any areas but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will instruct his officials to make an immediate survey with a view to seeing that our people are properly protected in the event of air attack. In answer to questions the right hon. Gentleman said there had been difficulty in some areas with regard to materials and in other areas with regard to labour. Those difficulties do not exist in the areas which I have in mind. Professional advice, free of charge where necessary, has been tendered by architects to the authorities in those areas. Building trade labour is available in those areas. The men are waiting at the local employment exchanges. Ample supplies of material are available.
  Mr. Quibell: In abundance.
  Mr. E. Smith: My hon. Friend speaks with knowledge of the industry. Therefore, none of these excuses can be pleaded for the inadequacy of the shelter accommodation in the areas to which I refer. The people for whom I speak have no time for the kind of quibbling which we occasionally hear in the House of Commons. If some of them could hear what took place here to-day, for example, or what took place a few weeks ago, it would break their hearts. They have no time for that sort of thing. If we are to be worthy of the spirit which is now finding expression in the increased production of aircraft and of all the equipment which is so urgently needed, especially after the Dunkirk evacuation, we should take immediate steps in this matter. Nothing is too good for those men who are engaged in this class of production and for their wives and children. They are working until seven o'clock in the evening on every day of the week. If they are to go to their employment with a feeling of confidence, they should know that adequate shelter accommodation is available for their wives and children while they are giving of their best in workshop and factory. It is the duty of the House of Commons and of the Ministry of Home Security to provide that shelter accommodation. I had wished to raise one or two other questions concerning auxiliary firemen, Red Cross work and the co-ordination of essential services, but I content myself with drawing the attention of the Ministers and their officials to the urgency of this problem. I ask them to take steps at once and with energy to see that accommodation is made available for our people, who so well deserve attention seeing that they are responsible for an increase in industrial production such as the world has never seen before.
  6.44 p.m.
  Mr. Salt: I wish to intervene, for a few minutes only, regarding the necessity for an increase in A.R.P. personnel. There is considerable anxiety, especially in large industrial areas, about A.R.P. personnel and I have a resolution from one of the larger cities which reads as follows:
  "In view of the gravity of the international situation this committee deplore the waste of time and labour at present devoted to repeated appeals for recruits for Civil Defence organisation and considers that a measure of

  1329
  compulsory service for Civil Defence duties should be produced immediately, for all suitable persons of both sexes."
  I believe that is a question which will have to be considered. One of the greatest troubles confronting us to-day is the amount of man-power which we shall have to use for many different purposes. We have only a limited amount. While I am quite satisfied that everyone to-day is prepared and anxious to volunteer and do whatever he can, it must be remembered that we are up against a country whose organisation is its great strength. We must meet them by building up a similar organisation in this country. If we are to win through, we must use all our man-power, and that, I think, means that we shall have to have compulsion for all those between the ages of 18 and 55 for military and national services. It follows that we should have to set up tribunals, with proper appeal tribunals, under the direction of the Ministry, which could determine what contribution the men should make in our national war effort. Some men would be in the Services, and others engaged in munition production, and they could not be called upon to do outside work. The remainder, however, might be able to give partial or whole-time work, where desired, to meet the needs of a particular locality. Those whose work could be estimated as of little national value could be given full-time work, at £3 a week, the equivalent, I think, of the payment of men in the Services. It is not necessary to do more than offer to pay these men, because there are many people in this country who would be able and willing to give their services, even for full-time work, without pay. All service should be on a contractual basis under penalties.
  One of the difficulties has already been referred to by the Minister. It is that the men who have already given much time and have been trained who are now needed for other purposes. The Minister must see that these gaps are filled. We have no time to waste in our present emergency, and the question of compulsion is a matter which will need immediate consideration. Women are equally patriotic and equally anxious to give their services, but again, I think, they should come under definite contractual obligations, and I hope that will be considered forthwith. In conclusion, I would refer to the question of shelters. Many of the
  1330
  shelters in our parks in London and elsewhere are without any proper ventilation, and I should like to be satisfied that the provision of adequate ventilation is being considered. If these shelters had to be used in such weather as we have had recently, there might be very serious trouble. What arrangements have been made to ensure during the black-out that the public can find where shelter accommodation has been provided? In Whitehall, and in parts of the City, it is very difficult to know where to go for shelter protection. I took the trouble recently to visit many streets in the City, and I could find nothing to show the public where to go in case of need.
  6.50 p.m.
  Mr. R. J. Taylor: There are one or two matters which I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister. I also wish to ask him several specific questions. I was delighted to hear the speech of the right hon. Gentleman on Civil Defence work, and especially his remarks in connection with A.R.P. He, at least, appreciates the work they have been doing. The only thing I deplore is the evidence of a change in policy. At the beginning we had a considerable number of workers paid for full-time work, but then came the clamour for a reduction in expenditure, with the result that we had a policy of retrenchment. This criticism of the A.R.P. workers is one which ought to be increasingly recognised as something to be deplored. If ever a body of people in this country have not yet been recognised as they should be, it is the men and women who have come forward to do A.R.P. work. Not only the voluntary workers, but the paid workers also deserve recognition, because, when the testing time comes, these are the men and women who are to save pain and prevent casualties. Their work will call for the highest courage and valour, and it is a very serious aspect of our national defence.
  The Minister's speech raised, in my mind, a very serious question. Some time ago he made an appeal for more voluntary workers, but the question of increasing the number of workers is complicated to the extent that we are also asking men to do their utmost to increase our production. Consequently, it may not be possible to obtain the voluntary workers

  1331
  required in areas where there are munition works. I would point out to the Minister that, apart from the areas actually engaged in the production of munitions, we have also to bear in mind those areas which are producing the raw materials. It is no use denying that the miners are responding to the call for increased output, but it is impossible to expect miners to put forth their utmost efforts in the mines if the previous night they have been doing A.R.P. work. That factor must be recognised. I am sorry that under the last instructions the Ministry is evidently prepared to allow some of the air-raid posts to be closed where there is not the necessary number of full-time workers to meet the requirement for the doubling of the personnel. Posts should not be closed unless there have been most meticulous inquiries and it has been proved that these services cannot be met. I am glad the Minister recognised that in certain areas it may not be possible to obtain the necessary volunteers.
  It seems to me that in our war efforts we have gone on expecting that everything was all right. I want to be careful in my remarks on this subject; but will the hon. Gentleman tell me whether there is any direct connection between the Post Office and the Minister of Home Security? As I understand it, there is a certain number of telephones and voluntary telephonists in the A.R.P. centres in the control rooms. If there is insufficient staffing at the Post Office, it means that, even during practices, it is impossible to render the services necessary in the control rooms. I am inclined to think, from information I have, that the Post Office is a little parsimonious. I would ask the Minister to go into this matter, because I can assure him that there are grave grounds for complaint. If there is inadequate staffing at the Post Office it means that A.R.P. practices cannot function as they should. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will look into these points, because I understand that the Post Office have laid down certain instructions for their own employés as to what shall happen before, during and after an air raid. Unless these are carried out, there will be grave weaknesses at the very time when we need the acme of perfection in communications.
  7.0 p.m.
  Dr. Haden Guest: I do not think that anything that has been said in this Debate will give much comfort to the enemy. The review of the situation given by the Home Secretary showed that we have a Civil Defence army of 2,000,000 men, shelter for 20,000,000 people and an efficient regional organisation divided into 12 areas able to act independently of each other in case communications break down. We have this organisation co-operating with the Army and the Local Defence Volunteers in an efficient way and co-operating also with other services and with the Ministry of Health. When I turn from the general to the particular and think, for instance, of the part of London which I represent and of the part of the rural area around London in which I live, I believe that the organisation in the local areas is as good as a general survey would lead us to believe. I think that Islington, one of the constituencies of which I have the honour to represent, has taken a leading part in the organisation. Every tribute which the Home Secretary paid to the air-raid precautions and Civil Defence workers is, I know from my own knowledge of the admirable work they have done, fully justified. This organisation of Civil Defence has been built up on an all-party basis. It has been criticised vigorously on all sides, and the Parliamentary Secretary himself has been one of the critics, but we have always criticised in a constructive spirit and only because we have desired to help.
  I have some constructive suggestions to make this evening. I want to ask whether the whole question of the organisation of Civil Defence has been re-surveyed from the standpoint of the new knowledge of the enemy methods of attack which we have from recent campaigns, notably in Holland and Belgium. The Home Secretary referred to these new methods and spoke of parachutists, but I do not think he referred to the troop-carrying aeroplane. The fact that numbers of parachutists and troops may, subject to our hostile attack, be delivered in areas in this country alters the Civil Defence problem and makes it necessary to reconsider a number of questions with regard to the disposal of personnel and the functions which they shall carry out. Are the present numbers of Civil Defence personnel adequate? It is a large and

  1333
  efficient army. It is based upon voluntary service, which I hope will be preserved, for it is an admirable basis and makes the service flexible. To institute an element of compulsion, which I hope will not be necessary, would introduce an element which would make the service less flexible and not easy to deal with.
  An important point which ought to be considered is whether the paid staff, which is the nucleus of the service, ought not to be increased so as to make it certain that there will always be some people who can carry on. Another question is whether the Civil Defence personnel require extra or any special training, and whether we can strengthen the valuable co-operation already existing between the regional organisations, the military and the Local Defence Volunteers. Another matter arising out of the new methods of warfare is the question of shelters. I have never been an advocate of the very large shelter. I think it should be one for a comparatively small number of people. I prefer a shelter for 50 rather than 100, and for 100 rather than 200. The new methods of warfare make it desirable to ask whether we should extend shelter provision to parts of the country which have not had it—country towns, for instance. I do not intend to refer to evacuation, which is to be debated tomorrow, but it is only too obvious that the new methods of warfare, especially the machine-gunning of the civilian population from a low height, vitally affect this question.
  I would say in passing that in the South of England and the London area there is a set of people who may have some value, although possibly not in the minds of some people. I refer to Members of Parliament. In the ordinary Civil Defence organisation in London they are not called into consultation in any way, and it seems to me rather unfortunate that they should not be. I asked my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson), who is regional commissioner for his part of the country, what happens about Members of Parliament in his area, and he told me that they were called into consultation and were relied on to be useful liaison officers with their constituencies. In London nothing of that kind takes place; in fact, some London Members have felt that they were not wanted when they went about looking into these things.
  1334
  That is a little difficulty, though not a serious one, which might be corrected.
  Another suggestion I have to make is that the regional organisations should get into consultation with the Ministry of Food with regard not only to distribution of food supplies, but to the state of nutrition of the population. When I had the honour of paying a visit to the British Expeditionary Force in France a few days previous to the invasion of Holland, Belgium and Luxemburg, I was able to inspect a large number of units, and one thing that struck me very much was the high standard of nutrition of the men. Whereas in the ordinary way one likes to get in a good standard of diet something like 3,500 calories, the British Expeditionary Force had up to a standard of 4,500 calories. They were 1,000 calories above the standard of what is considered to be in the ordinary way a very good diet. They were extremely fit, their morale was very high, and I have not the slightest hesitation—nor had the medical officers with whom I talked—in saying that that high standard of nutrition of the British Expeditionary Force would be one of the great factors in any fighting in which they were engaged. I am convinced that one of the reasons why they were able to put up such a magnificent fight in those three weeks—
  The Chairman (Sir Dennis Herbert): I think the hon. Member's enthusiasm is carrying him away from the subject of this Debate.
  Dr. Guest: I was only intending to show that just as there is a high standard in the British Expeditionary Force, so there must be a high standard in the civilian population, and it is essential that the regional organisations should know whether there are any difficulties in that respect in any areas within their regions. If there are, they should take steps to correct them. In my final word I would suggest that in the organisation of Civil Defence we should try in every respect, not alone as regards nutrition, to live up to the B.E.F. standard, because I am certain that this most important service will be called upon to bear an onslaught almost as great as that which the B.E.F. was called upon to face in Flanders.
  7.11 p.m.
  Mr. Price: The question of deep shelters has been referred to

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  by more than one speaker. At one time I was a rather keen advocate of deep shelters, and some time ago I visited an exhibition in the Town Hall of Finsbury at which such shelters were much favoured, but I have rather come round to the view, and the speech of the Home Secretary to-day very much confirmed it, that it would be unwise to lay too much stress upon the importance of deep shelters, and that there are many good reasons why they should not be provided on any extensive scale. I understand that experience so far in air raids indicates that the casualties arise not so much from direct hits as from the effects of blast and splinters. There was a case in this country not long ago when an aeroplane came down and three-quarters of the casualties were caused by glass splinters, and many of them might have been avoided if the inhabitants of the houses in the neighbourhood had taken proper precautions. There are probably three main dangers arising from air attack on the civil population: First, blast; second, splinters; and third, and by no means least, nerves. It seems to me that these three dangers can be overcome without deep shelters. At the same time I hope that where, as my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) has suggested, it is possible to strengthen existing shelters, without perhaps making them completely effective against 500 lb. bombs, the Home Secretary will see what can be done in that direction.
  There are one or two points that I wish to raise in connection with A.R.P., more particularly in country districts and country towns. Though we now have some kind of A.R.P. organisation in every corner of the country, we have been inclined to think that the remote areas are not very important, and that it is the big centres which are most likely to be attacked. That was probably true, but recent developments have indicated that if there are parachute descents and landings of hostile forces by aeroplanes, they will take place in the remoter districts. What is to be the position of the A.R.P. personnel in those areas? I think they will be at least indirectly involved, and that we ought to reconsider their duties. I can conceive it possible that an air-raid warden on duty in one of the remoter areas might find himself very close to descending parachute troops or hostile
  1336
  troops landed from the air. Although I am myselt an air-raid warden in a rural area, I have had no instructions about my duties in a case of that kind.
  There is a further point which I raised the other day when the Local Defence Volunteers were under discussion. In the rural areas the A.R.P. service has been manned to some extent by ex-service men. They are just the very men wanted as Local Defence Volunteers, and it has come to my knowledge that at least one county council has informed its staff that they must not join the Local Defence Volunteers but must stay with A.R.P. There ought to be some elasticity in that regard. One can understand the wish of local A.R.P. authorities to keep their men, but there ought to be a reshuffling where necessary, and I hope the Home Secretary will indicate to local authorities that where it is desirable reshuffling should take place, because obviously ex-service men who can handle machine-guns are much more useful as Local Defence Volunteers than as A.R.P. personnel.
  Further, I understand that the National Association of Air-Raid Wardens have approached the Home Secretary to ask whether air-raid wardens cannot be armed, in view of the new dangers from parachutists and other forms of attack, and I should like to know the view of the Home Secretary on that point. I quite realise that to arm them would make them a combatant Service, and that their members would be liable, unless they were in uniform, to be shot as francs-tireurs. That raises a large question, but we have to consider the nature of the enemy we are fighting. That enemy has been carrying on totalitarian war against the civil population, and I can conceive that an air-raid warden out on duty might be machine-gunned and shot down like a dog if he had no means of defending himself. It may be desirable not to give weapons to those who have had no training in using them, but if they are capable of using them, it might be worth while to consider arming them, having regard to the fact that the enemy is making war on the civil population.
  In conclusion, I want to raise one point on the subject of unity of command. It is difficult, in present conditions, to ensure that there will be rapid action in the event of a lightning attack.
  The Chairman: I can quite see that, on the subject of unity of command, local Defence services will be affected, but it is obvious that other Ministries will be concerned. It is not a subject, therefore, which can be raised on this Vote, because it relates also to other Votes.
  Mr. Price: I quite understand, Sir Dennis, and I will not press this point too far. Perhaps you will permit me to say that I feel that the efficiency of A.R.P. services might be improved if, in certain areas, every effort were made to ensure that, in the event of an emergency, immediate steps would be taken to bring all the services under one command. The Question which I put to the Lord Privy Seal the other day elicited an indication that something is being done in this respect through the local regional commissioners, but the efficiency of the services would be immensely increased if we could be sure about it. I am satisfied that there is a great deal of red tape and waste of time, as things are at present. I will leave the matter at that, because I realise that other Ministries are concerned, and that possibly there may be opportunities to raise the matter upon some other occasion.
  7.22 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: I want to raise one point. I think the Ministry are rather apt to put too many of their appliances under one roof. There was the same trouble in the last war, when they always put their munitions in one dump, so that one bomb could get the lot. I am not giving any instances, because it would not be advisable to do so, but, if you take the case of fire appliances, that is certainly so. It is no use the Parliamentary Secretary shaking his head; I know that it is true.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security (Mr. Mabane): I believe my right hon. Friend said that the Home Office would look into the matter.
  Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: It is a matter which the Home Office should certainly see to. In some places there are no fire appliances, and in other cases the appliances are centralised in one part. I hope that the Ministry will go into the question and get it put right.
  7.23 p.m.
  Mr. Sexton: I have sat here during most of this Debate. I
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  was very interested in the statement which the Home Secretary made, and I believe that, in general, it will give satisfaction to the nation when the people read it. I was interested also in his call for reserves. I believe that voluntary workers are a diminishing asset. When air-raid precautions schemes were first set up there were many unemployed men and women in this country, and many others working on short time. Now, all that is changed. Spare-time workers are very few now, because the call is for work, and that means that there is less time for A.R.P. work. When a man may be employed for 12 hours a day and for six or seven days in the week, he is not in much of a fit state to render air-raid service, which would either interfere with his output of munitions, if that should be his work, or with his efficiency as an air-raid warden. We all know that "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy"; all work, whether in factory, mine or field, together with A.R.P. work, will take some of the sting out of people who have already engaged themselves in those great services.
  I want, specially, to put three points very briefly. The first of them is that, in his speech, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the protection of the mines. It is not my province to go into the details of the protection of coal mines, but I did not feel so assured about the protection given to coal mines as about the protection of factories. The right hon. Gentleman said that, broadly speaking, the protection of the mines was efficient, and he paid a high tribute to factory inspectors. I hope that mines inspectors were included in that compliment, because they ought to be complimented by the Minister of Home Security for their services. Wisely the Minister referred to those mines, factories and commercial undertakings, but there was one omission, and that was the schools. He did not refer to the shelters provided for schools. We all know that evacuation must affect the plans for shelters. I am aware that the question of evacuation will be discussed to-morrow.
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the expenditure to local authorities in respect of A.R.P. I wonder whether he included the expenditure to local authorities for the shelters provided for the schools. We know that the rate varies from 65 per cent. to 85 per cent., and

  1339
  we know also that the expenditure on shelters to schools is limited to 50 per cent. We hope that the Treasury will not be so mean as to protect the school children on the cheap, but that is the way it appears to many people who have considered the question. In spite of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman one day before, we still think that the matter of the shelters to the schools should be taken into earnest consideration.
  My third point has been referred to by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. Like him, I come from a rural district. A very large part of my constituency is rural. People in the rural districts are just a bit inclined to think that, in the matter of protection, they have to play a very small part, compared with the part played by the congested and industrial districts. They rather think that they are being neglected. I have heard nothing, or very little, about the protection of farms. We are now wondering about supplies of food, if the emergency really does come. In those farms and farmsteads are stocks of wheat, oats and other foodstuffs, as well as cattle and sheep. They all need protection, and they should all come under the Civil Defence of this country. In the rural districts we hear very little about the protection of the farms and of their stacks.
  Civil Defence has become more important during these last few months. In this House and in the country it used to be said that our frontier was the Rhine. Now, I notice that the frontier is getting nearer. It is now the Straits of Dover. If we remember the experience of Holland, Belgium and Norway, we may find that wherever a parachutist can establish himself that becomes our front line. I was pleased, and I think we were all pleased, to hear the Home Secretary say that there was infinite collaboration among the various authorities, military and civil, so that we could have full protection, and so that the people in this country can receive the assurance that we in the House of Commons are doing all we possibly can to make this land safe from attack from any foreign invader.
  7.30 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Brown: I intervene in this Debate to make one or
  1340
  two points. I am sure that in the great national effort which we are now compelled to make it is exceedingly difficult to reconcile some of the conflicting factors that operate when seeking to build up our Civil Defence services. My hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) has already referred to one of the points which I wanted to stress. I wonder how far the figures, which the Minister of Home Security mentioned in regard to the total number of people now engaged in A.R.P. services, represent a sort of static personnel or how far they represent a change in personnel. That is an important point, because I am assured that in some parts of the country it is extraordinarily difficult to keep people in these services for a variety of reasons. They are attracted away for different reasons. Far be it from me to suggest that people should not leave their A.R.P. jobs at £3 a week if they can get other work for £7 a week. I do not blame them. I want to know only how far the figures mentioned by the Minister of Home Security represent a change in personnel. I do not suggest that when a person, who has been trained as an air-raid warden or a first-aid worker, leaves his job, his training is lost, but it means that the new people who are taken on have to be trained. Therefore, although the total figures which the Minister of Home Security mentioned this afternoon may be accurate and complete, how far do they represent at a given moment completely trained personnel? That is an important point, and in general, although I, like everybody else, appreciate the admirable statement which the Minister made to-day, I would like to know a little more about the change in character of the A.R.P. services.
  There is another point I wish to make. I think the future will prove that we have intertwined our air-raid precautions services too closely with the local government services. This matter is associated with the age of reservation in regard to Army service. The age of reservation in regard to local government service has just been raised from 25 to 30. I am not suggesting that that should not have been done, but as air-raid precautions have been intertwined with local government services, chiefly because in the early stages the Government wanted to get some of these services on the cheap, it means that local government officers have

  1341
  gone into pivotal and key positions in air-raid precautions services, they have devoted all their time to air-raid precautions services and in some cases, if the Government do not watch what they are doing in regard to raising the age of reservation, they will take away pivotal and key men, in some cases functioning over an entire county.
  In my county there is only one county borough. The rest of the air-raid precautions services are controlled entirely by the county council. If you take out the key men from the vital services you will upset the whole structure of air-raid precautions services in that particular area. Summarising my points, I would like some information as to how far the total figures related to air-raid precautions represent a change in personnel and how far they are static and fixed. Secondly, I would like to know whether, having regard to the way in which the air-raid precautions services are intertwined with the local government services, due care will be exercised in the future in calling upon local government officials to serve in the Armed Forces of the Crown.
  7.36 p.m.
  Mr. Gallacher: The hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest) asked whether the Ministry had learned the lesson of the new tactics of the Nazis when they invaded a country, and he referred to the parachutists and to the troop-carrying planes. But he omitted, as is generally omitted, one of the most important factors in the new technique of invasion, and it is necessary that the Ministers in this country should learn that lesson. In every country that has been invaded, before the invasion took place, the Fifth Column specialised in an attack upon the real defenders of the people. The hon. Member on the Front Bench may smile, but in Austria, Norway, Holland, Denmark and Belgium there was the same story. When this question of Civil Defence was raised, a Bill was brought in by the present Ambassador to Spain. That Bill trifled with the question and I, in association with the hon. Member for North Islington and others, had the task of bringing home to the Minister and to the Government what the defence of the people really meant and the steps which should be taken to ensure it.
  1342
  In the A.R.P. we have many of our party members, but those who until recently were the very closest friends of the Nazis are now making an unscrupulous attack upon the Communists. There is a movement taking place to put Communists off A.R.P. work. If there is a Communist at an A.R.P. post his one and only concern is the defence and the welfare of the people in his area. He is not concerned with profit, industrial undertakings or big financial enterprises. It is a very serious matter for the people of this country because they are in very great danger. I want to make this declaration, and in view of this unscrupulous campaign it is necessary to make it. When the immediate danger faces the people in any district of this country, the Communists in that district, with the spirit and courage which they showed in Spain against the Fascists, when those who are slandering them now were aiding and abetting the Fascists, will be the bravest and most fearless defenders of the people of this country.
  7.40 p.m.
  Mr. Tomlinson: What I am about to say will, I am quite sure, be of no value to the enemy, but I think it might be of value to our own country if my suggestions are adopted. I believe that the A.R.P. services, valuable as they have proved themselves, would be better if the personal injuries to civilians scheme, which was brought in in connection with the A.R.P. services, was overhauled. It is a reflection upon the value which is set upon the personnel of these services that that scheme is made to fit the services. I do not want to go into details, as the Minister knows what I mean. He knows that the scheme is not nearly good enough for these services. A good deal has been said to-day, and is being said in the country, about the loss of A.R.P. personnel. Is it to be wondered at that we have lost personnel? In the months during which they were serving their country by waiting, they stood a good many slights at the hands of the public, they received insults from Members of this House, they were chided for taking up cushy jobs, and it was said that in paying them £3 a week we were overpaying them. When that cut took place in the personnel, we lost the best people. We are appealing to them to come back on part-time work. A good many have

  1343
  done so in every district; but, with the demand for more and more output in industry, there is a limit to what can be expected; and there is a limit to the field from which you can draw A.R.P. personnel.
  Because of that, I am about to suggest a new scheme which would tap a source not yet tapped, and of greater value than any other at present. I refer to the large body of young people between 14 and 18, adolescents, who have just left school. If there is one person in this land for whom the war is being fought, it is the adolescent. He will lose more if the war is lost, and gain more if the war is won, than anybody else in this country. Everything of value in his life is at stake. Could we not bring home to these young people the necessity for some trained service? It should not be difficult to rouse the young people of the country to a sense of all that is at stake, and to get that energy which perhaps is being used in other directions devoted to this work. I have often been to the A.R.P. centres, and I know something of what is being done there. I have nothing but praise for the men and women who spend their time there. If ever it was true of any service that "they also serve who only stand and wait," it is true of the A.R.P. service, and particularly of those who spend so many hours at our report centres. Among the young people of 14 to 18, there are a vast number who could do most of the jobs that are to be done. Messengers and telephone operators are needed, and a vast army of what one might call servants to the principal servants. I see no better source for such recruits than the adolescents. Youths of 17½ to 19½ are now catered for in the "parashots." That leaves a large body, however, of young folk who can be organised in these services. We could use the organisations which are now catering for youth, which are being utilised along with the educational services in the new scheme that the Board of Education has put forward. The one thing essential is that that spirit should be directed to meeting the needs of the present time.
  Any objection that there might have been to young people coming into contact with the military machine is removed by the fact that they would be linked up
  1344
  with the Civil Defence scheme. There is a reservoir which will be of inestimable value if the events which we all anticipate take place. What could be better than that these young people should be given some responsibility for their younger brothers and sisters, and linked up with the machine which is created for their protection? I suggest not only the establishment of this junior defence service, but that it should be given a fillip by our appealing to all that is best in young people, by asking them to come forward and do a job of work for their country at such a time as this. What are these young people doing now? Many of them are doing what we all did between the ages of 14 and 18—playing cricket. That is what we should all want them to do in peace-time, but now they should be given a job to do in this war; and then they would become, in every sense, young crusaders.
  There is one other question to which I wish to refer, dealing with another aspect of Civil Defence. I do not know whether it is a fact that all those bungalows on the coast are not to be used during the coming summer. If such an order has been given, I can well understand the reason. But I had a letter the other day from a young man who said that he and his wife had both been called into service, and had had to leave their house in an industrial town. He said that he had to pay £17 in rates, and asked whether I could do anything about it. Not being familiar with the rate collector, I could not do much about it; but I certainly think that he should have some relief. Will these people, if they are not allowed to use the bungalows, be expected to pay their rates during the period that the bungalows are out of use? This is a matter whcih is worrying some people.
  The Temporary Chairman (Sir Cyril Entwistle): I do not see how that can arise on this Vote.
  Mr. Tomlinson: I thought that it was under the Civil Defence scheme that these people were prevented from using their bungalows. If the matter arises out of some other kind of Defence, the question will have to be put at some other time.
  7.50 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security (Mr. Mabane): I do so appreciate what the hon. Member

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  for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) said when, at the outset of his speech, he referred to the difficulty of keeping one's mind in this House. This Debate is taking place while the German onslaught in France rages with unabated fury, and at this time in every house in the country people are calculating from hour to hour—one might say from broadcast to broadcast—the effect of the German advance upon the military situation by land and by sea and in the air. So far we have been immune from air attack in this country, save for what we might regard as trial flights. Perhaps we have discerned the reasons—the hon. Member for Derby indicated some of them. After the experiences of Norway, Holland, Belgium and France we must expect that the enemy is waiting until the time when he will be able to attack, if ever that time comes, on a wide front with full force, delivering blow upon blow in a fierce effort to paralyse and dislocate our war machine.
  The Civil Defence organisation must surely conform to these hard needs. Our aim must be to make it universal, practical and quick. The realisation of all our plans must be pressed forward, and in that those in the Ministry are in entire agreement with those who have expressed such views in the Committee to-day. Our services must have more and more reserves behind them, so that they will be able to resist the full flood of the attack, and we must be ready to alter and to improve our services and our organisation, if attack reveals weaknesses in our armour.
  For my part, I am glad this Debate has taken place, for two particular reasons. First, it has enabled the Minister of Home Security to make the statement that he has made to the Committee. I am sure that had it been possible for him to have been here throughout the Debate, he would have been much encouraged by the words which have fallen from many hon. Members during the course of the Debate. I am very glad for this reason, too—that it has allowed many hon. Members, and now allows me, to pay a well deserved and long awaited tribute to the personnel who have been engaged in the Civil Defence Service since the outbreak of war. I would like to thank those other hon. Members for what they have said, because I am certain it will be of the greatest possible encouragement to those who form part of the Civil
  1346
  Defence services. It has been my good fortune since I have been in this office to pay visits to the various Civil Defence regions and see these men and women at work in various parts of the country. I have seen them in Scotland, in Wales, in the South, in Durham. I have seen men coming off a 12-hour shift and going in their working clothes to do a four-hour shift in the Civil Defence service I have seen them in the valleys of Wales operating the whole service on a part-time basis. I have seen in quiet towns in the South of England people differently occupied providing the service in the same way; secondary school masters who, perhaps, have been running report centres since the beginning of the war, with close upon 80 voluntary workers around them. I am sure this Debate will have been an encouragement to all these people. Those must not be forgotten who have given their full time. Throughout the country these people have been at work, and are at work. I know their morale is high and that they will do the job when the time comes.
  This Debate has concerned itself with most aspects of the work of the Ministry of Home Security. Perhaps I might first of all refer to some of the questions that have been asked on the subject of shelter. It was a good thing that at the beginning of the Debate the Committee were reminded that it was really proper to compare shelter as it now exists with the programme originally set out towards the end of 1938. As the Minister indicated, broadly that programme has been completed; the objective has been reached. We know that the butter is not spread evenly, but the shelter is there to that extent. Both the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) and the hon. Member for Derby said that our objective ought to be more and better shelter. I can say that that certainly is the objective of the Ministry of Home Security. As the Minister indicated in his opening speech, the goal has receded as time has passed, and we are now seeking to fulfil a much larger programme than was our objective at the end of 1938. The hon. Member for North Cumberland asked a particular question about the shelter for the 20,000,000 people to which reference was made at the beginning of the Debate, and I am glad to be able to tell him that all that shelter is of code

  1347
  standard or better, and that in the case of the key workers in factories to whom he alluded special shelter is provided for them because of the considerations which he set out in his speech.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: What is meant by special shelter; is it stronger and better?
  Mr. Mabane: Stronger shelter and well above code standard. Reference was made both by the hon. Member for North Cumberland and the hon. Member for Derby to two-phase shelter. I do not think that I can add to what the Minister said on that subject in his opening speech, but I can assure them both that the matter has been most carefully watched.
  Mr. W. Roberts: The point is whether local authorities have had this new idea explained and recommended to them to be carried out.
  Mr. Mabane: No, the local authorities have not as yet been informed, because the designs of these shelters are at present in process of being completed in the Department. I omitted to give the answer to that question which I remember the hon. Member asked. Many hon. Members have referred to the problem of bricks and bricklayers. As the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. E. Smith) rightly said, in the past the Department has been able only to issue circulars to local authorities urging action but it has not had power to do more than that. Now, however, as the Minister indicated, further powers have been obtained and will be used, and it certainly will be the intention of the Ministry to secure that shelter is provided at the greatest possible speed, and then if we find that bricklayers are apparently not available for our purpose, we shall have to do what is the proper thing now and appeal to the Ministry of Labour who control these matters at the present time.
  The hon. Member for Derby set a very high objective for us to reach. He suggested that everybody should have a shelter that would provide a great deal more protection than, I gather, code shelters provide at the present time. He chaffed me because I, perhaps inadvertently, told him that I myself had no shelter at my home. Perhaps I might say that I have an excellent shelter round the corner, and since saying that, I have
  1348
  read the booklet published by the Ministry, "Your Home as an Air-Raid Shelter," and I have now managed, with the excellent advice in the book, to construct a satisfactory shelter where I now am; and, of course, in that lies the solution of the problem of many people. I must urge that the recommendations offered to the public in the booklet, "Your Home as an Air-Raid Shelter" are extremely valuable and likely to improve enormously the protective qualities of the house if the instructions in the booklet are carried out.
  Mr. Tinker: Is the booklet on sale now?
  Mr. Mabane: Yes. It costs three pence, and I hope that in a very short time it will be generally available for sale in post offices.
  Mr. E. Smith: I have read the book, and I think it is a very good book, provided you are living in a house where you are able to carry out the advice contained in it, but the people for whom I am particularly speaking do not live in houses of that character and, therefore, cannot carry out the advice.
  Mr. Mabane: The hon. Gentleman must remember that those with an income of less than £5 per week are entitled to have a shelter free, so the booklet really does not apply to them.
  Mr. R. J. Taylor: I would not like there to be any confusion on the matter which the Minister has just mentioned, namely, that he said he had a shelter round the corner. Are not the instructions to local authorities to this effect, that people who are in their houses are not to go out to public shelters, which are for the people who are caught on the streets?
  Mr. Mabane: I think the hon. Member need not take too seriously the exchange between the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) and myself.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The point that my hon. Friend raises is one of great importance. Are the shelters which public authorities are putting up intended to be confined only to those in the streets, or are they to be used for the population as a whole? I ardently hope that the Minister will say they are to be used by the public as a whole, and that the Government

  1349
  will extend the number of these shelters so that an increasingly large number of people, especially in danger areas, can go to them and get shelter. Otherwise, a great deal which has been done by local authorities is perfect nonsense. The Eaton Square shelter will hold 1,500 people, but there will never be 1,500 people in Eaton Square.
  Mr. Mabane: In many cases multiple shelters are expressly provided in order that people may go to them from their houses. It is quite proper for them to do so, but, of course, shelters provided for the public caught in the streets are intended for the use of people caught in the streets. It is not a penal offence for anyone else to go in them. It is, however, unwise, for the simple reason that they are probably too far away from where the people live.
  Now I would like to deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. Quibell), who asked whether something could not be done to secure that those who had failed to cover their Anderson shelters with the proper amount of earth, or who had failed to erect their shelters, should be subject to some penalty. I am happy to be able to tell the hon. Member that his point has been met and from yesterday, 11th June, it became an offence to fail to cover an Anderson shelter with the adequate amount of earth or to fail to erect it. He also raised the matter of shelters lying in sidings at Scunthorpe. I have many documents on the subject; it is a complicated matter, and perhaps he will allow me to discuss it with him afterwards.
  Many Members have referred to the personnel of the Civil Defence service. It is clear that hon. Members in different parts of the House have given much thought to the difficult problem of the Civil Defence army. It might be too easily supposed from some of the remarks that there are general deficiencies in numbers in the service. That is not true. In some parts of the country there are deficiencies, but they are by no means widespread. We are asking for more and more volunteers to offer themselves, not only to make up deficiencies, but in order to provide the service with reserves sufficient to enable it to carry on through a long period of continuous raids. The hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. C. Brown) asked whether the personnel was
  1350
  a changing personnel. It would be difficult to say exactly, but my own experience in many parts of the country is that the personnel does not change unless people leave the district or go into another occupation. Then there are the people who have never in any real sense belonged to the service. There is, of course, a large number of people who have enrolled but have never taken an active part in the service. In most parts of the country, however, those who have joined the service and taken an active part have remained extremely loyal.
  There has been much interest shown in many parts of the Committee over the degree of control that might be exercised over the personnel of the service. The hon. Member for Yardley (Mr. Salt) suggested that there should be compulsion, but I should like to make it clear that the demand for compulsory service in Civil Defence is by no means general. There are many parts of the country where the service is perfectly happily organised on a voluntary basis, and where there would be very much objection to an alteration of that basis. As to control, as the Minister said in his opening statement, there is now a regulation which enables an order to be made to provide a greater degree of control than hitherto has been the case as regards full-time personnel. But if I have interpreted the mind of the Committee rightly, Members are in entire agreement with the statement made by the Minister at the outset of this Debate—that this service represents a great voluntary effort, and it is far better to retain it, if possible, on that basis.
  The hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. R. J. Taylor) said it was a great pity that full-time paid personnel should be released from the service. At the present time they are not being released unless they are required for the Army, or work of a greater degree of national importance. I can assure him that wardens' posts are not closed without the fullest consideration of the security of the particular neighbourhood in which they are established. The hon. Member for North Cumberland asked me whether I could say something about the result of the appeal made during the past week. The results are interesting. Perhaps it is a little early to give any figures, but I can say that in many places the response has been remarkably good.

  1351
  Up to the present time 7,000 new volunteers have joined the service since 8th June as a result of the appeal. Those 7,000 are drawn from particular areas of the country—
  Sir William Wayland: Is there not competition in recruiting between the A.R.P. and the Local Defence Volunteer Corps?
  Mr. Mabane: One expected that recruitment for the Local Defence Volunteer Force would have interfered with the existing Civil Defence service, but reports show that the interference has been nothing like so much as might have been expected. In those areas where the response to the appeal made by the Minister has been small, if local authorities will themselves try to support that appeal, they will find that volunteers are more likely to come forward.
  Mr. G. Griffiths: Could an appeal be made for both services from the same platform?
  Mr. Mabane: Certainly. The hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest) and the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery) suggested that the political organisations in this country might be used to encourage recruiting. There is one political instrument which I think would be of great use in this connection, and that is the Member of Parliament. Hitherto, we have found that if Members of Parliament take an interest in this matter, then not only do their constituents appreciate very much the interest they show, but recruits are readily forthcoming. Certain matters of what I may call an operational character have been raised by the hon. Member for Morpeth, the hon. Member for North Islington and the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price). I think that as they are of an operational character, they are matters which are best not discussed in the Committee, and I prefer to leave it at that. But if hon. Members will be so good as to visit me or the Department, every effort will be made to satisfy them on the points they have raised.
  I should like to refer, before concluding, to one aspect of the work of the Department that has not loomed large in the Debate. I want to refer to it because I consider it a very important part of our work, and that is the education and instruction of the public in air-raid action.
  1352
  Efforts have been made to secure, by circulars and leaflets, that the public know exactly what to do. Hon. Members know that cards have been distributed to every householder giving detailed instructions as to what to do, where the nearest warden's post is situated and so on. Hon. Members know too that stirrup pumps have been sent to local authorities throughout the country and that they are getting together teams of householders who will be trained in the use of these stirrup pumps so that the danger from incendiary bombs will be much reduced.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that some members of our party, who have had the greatest possible experience in countering this danger as a result of their work in Spain, and who are giving their services to air-raid precautions, are being pushed out?
  Mr. Mabane: Stirrup-pump teams are being prepared throughout the country, and in most parts of the country, I wish I could say in all, public lectures are being arranged in order that as many people as wish—and I hope all will—may secure instruction from those who are trained in air-raid action. It is difficult to secure, however, with all the effort made, that people really know what to do. I was interested for example to hear the hon. Member for Yardley say that he was unable to discover shelters in Westminster at night. I have no difficulty. In going about Westminster in the last few weeks I have been confronted everywhere by the poster bearing the words
  "See the blue light. It means shelter at night."
  Apparently, the hon. Member has not seen that poster yet.
  I have tried to deal with all the points which have been raised by hon. Members in the Debate, and I hope I have not missed any point of major importance. We have to-day concerned ourselves with the major responsibilities of the Ministry of Home Security—responsibilities which embrace the provision of shelter at home, in the streets, at work; the provision of protection against gas; the provision of services to deal with casualties and damage, including damage by fire, which will be the result of air bombardment; the control of the operation of these services; and the instruction of the public in air-raid action. These are the major

  1353
  responsibilities of the Ministry of Home Security. The objective of the work of the Ministry is to enable this country not merely to resist with calm courage an attack from the air, but to enable it also to proceed with the vital work of producing ever more and more war material, although that may have to be done in conditions of great stress and difficulty. May I state as a phrase the object of the Ministry of Home Security? It is to reduce Hitler's dividend when his bombers come. In the year before the outbreak of war much progress was made. That rate of progress has been greatly accelerated in the nine months since war began, and I am sure it is the determination of every one at the Ministry to see that that accelerated progress shall continue.
  One last word. Let it be clear to all, and I am sure it is clear to hon. Members, that our preparations are not based on fear. Air-raid shelters are not funk-holes. The morale of our civilian population is high. There are few who would not be willing to accept an additional risk for themselves if by so doing they could put one more weapon into the hands of our fighting forces. I do not believe that in this matter the civilian population are primarily concerned to save their own skins. They take a bolder, a braver, and if I may use the word, a more aggressive view. They desire life, not merely for its own sake, but because they know that if any one goes, and some of us
  1354
  must, then there will be one less to bring defeat to the enemy and liberation to the world.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Mr. J. P. L. Thomas.]
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  AGRICULTURAL WAGES (REGULATION) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

  ROAD TRAFFIC ACTS.
  Resolved,
  "That the Motor Vehicles (Gas-propelled Vehicles) (Variation of Speed Limit) Regulations, 1940, a copy of which was presented to this House on 13th May, be approved."—[Mr. Montague.]
  The remaining Order was read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. J. P. L. Thomas.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes after Eight o'clock.

  LOCAL DEFENCE VOLUNTEERS.
  LOCAL DEFENCE VOLUNTEERS.
  TANKS (PRESS PUBLICITY).
  TANKS (PRESS PUBLICITY).
  CHURCH MAGAZINES (POSTAGE).
  CHURCH MAGAZINES (POSTAGE).
  AIR RAID PRECAUTION CENTRES (WIRELESS SETS).
  AIR RAID PRECAUTION CENTRES (WIRELESS SETS).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  MINISTRY OF ECONOMIC WARFARE.
  MINISTRY OF ECONOMIC WARFARE.
  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.
  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (WAR SERVICE).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (WAR SERVICE).
  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
  TANGANYIKA (MR. G. H. NUTTING).
  TANGANYIKA (MR. G. H. NUTTING).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (LEICESTER).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (LEICESTER).
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  PASTRY AND CONFECTIONERY.
  PASTRY AND CONFECTIONERY.
  FOOD CONTROL COMMITTEES.
  FOOD CONTROL COMMITTEES.
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

MILK PRICE POLICY.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Addison has asked me to apologise to my noble friend Lord Woolton for being absent. He is with the Minister of War on a very important matter, and he has asked me to put in his stead a question on a subject in which he is so much interested. I therefore beg leave of your Lordships to put this private notice question on behalf of my noble friend: To ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on their milk price policy.
THE MINISTER OF FOOD (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for giving me this opportunity of placing before your Lordships a proposal which has now arrived almost at a state of completion and which, if I may be allowed to say so, has not only my official but my very sincere personal support. At this time the future of those who will have to carry on the life and the traditions of this great nation when it has conquered the present threat seems to us to be of so much importance that we consider it necessary to take special steps to safeguard the health of young children and of expectant and nursing mothers. We therefore prepared a comprehensive national scheme under which expectant and nursing mothers and children under five will in the near future be enabled to obtain adequate quantities of milk at prices within the means of the household. It is unnecessary for me to emphasize to your Lordships the importance of milk as an item of food for these particular members of the community. The plan which we have prepared, and which we hope to bring into operation within the next month, will have a wider scope and, I hope, a more definite effect than anything of the kind that we have hitherto attempted to operate.
Hitherto the responsibility for the administration costs of schemes for providing milk at reduced charges has been

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placed upon local authorities. The Government felt that as this matter is of such vital and immediate national importance the scheme should become one the cost of which would be borne entirely by the Exchequer. Under the plan now proposed milk will be available daily at the much reduced price of twopence per pint for each expectant or nursing mother and for each child under school age, and this applies to every eligible household which desires to take advantage of the scheme. The scheme also makes provision for the supply of free milk to those households coming under the scheme who are not able to pay for it. Whilst it will be necessary in such cases to establish need, the requirements under the scheme will be very simple and there will normally be no detailed investigation as to the means of the applicants.
At the request of the other Ministers concerned—namely, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Health—my Department has undertaken the responsibility for the administration of the plan. It is proposed therefore that the Ministry of Food shall appoint a local milk officer in each area who will be under the direct control of the Ministry. The details of the scheme are now being worked out with the other authorities concerned. I have invited representatives of the local government associations, of the Society of Medical Officers of Health, and of all the milk marketing boards, to meet me this week so that I may discuss with them the operation of the plan. I feel sure that I can rely upon the wholehearted co-operation and support of all these authorities. I should like to take this opportunity of recording my thanks to the milk distributing trade, to whom I first put this problem as one of great national interest and whom I invited to operate it at no profit to themselves, and they agreed to do so as a piece of national work during war-time.
Noble Lords will be aware that the costs of milk production have risen since the outbreak of war. While some part of the increased cost has been met by increasing the prices payable for milk used in manufacture, the increased price guaranteed by the Government to producers during the summer months could not be met completely out of the revenue produced by the sale of milk. To enable the whole question of milk policy to be
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fully investigated and to prevent a rise in the retail price, the Government earlier on granted a subsidy which, in cash, has amounted to £3,500,000 but it was at the rate of £8,500,000 per annum. All of us who drink milk benefited by that subsidy but according to the plan that I now have in the future milk will find its economic price. The public will pay that price and such subsidies as His Majesty's Government give will be directed to those people who are not in a position to pay the economic price. I hope that policy will meet with your Lordships' approval. The consequent increase of fourpence per gallon in the retail price of milk will come into effect on July 1. It is required to cover the increased payment already guaranteed to producers until the end of September.
I have made this statement to your Lordships to-day because I thought it a matter of interest, as it was certainly a matter of courtesy, to your Lordships that I should do so, but I hope to be in a position to make a fuller statement on the Government's milk policy in the course of the debate next week on the Motion that stands in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. In the meantime, however, it is necessary to make interim announcements of a detailed character in order to enable the administrative machine to be brought into operation without delay. I wanted to communicate this rough outline of the plan to your Lordships at this early stage.
4.10 p.m.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I am sure we are all exceedingly interested and obliged to the noble Lord for the statement that he has made. From the point of view of the food of the people it is a matter of first-class importance. Listening to the statement, it occurred to me, without prejudice to the fuller statement which the noble Lord is going to give us, that the insistence in the concluding sentences of the statement that milk should find its economic price, raises a very important issue as to the costs of distribution which enter into the determination of that price. On that, I for one hold very strong opinions. There is also, if I understand it aright, an increase to twopence a pint at which milk is now provided in schools. I think that represents an increase in price of one halfpenny a pint, but I am speaking, of course, without notice. If so, that

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is another very important matter. However, I am quite sure that your Lordships will appreciate the outlook of the noble Lord in working out a scheme of this magnitude, and will look forward with great interest to the fuller details that he has promised to supply. I hope that as soon as we obtain possession of those details, we shall have an opportunity of discussing them in this House. Meanwhile, I would like to offer congratulations to the noble Lord for the gallant effort he is making, although I am sure he will not resent our looking this gift horse in the mouth rather carefully. Meanwhile we shall look forward to the fuller statement.
4.12 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I would like to add only one word, having been for many years an inhabitant of a dairy country and having been for a long time concerned with milk production. I certainly welcome the effort of His Majesty's Government to deal with some of the difficulties which have so long surrounded this industry. There was a time, which lasted for many years, when dairy farmers seemed to be on the crest of the wave. Other agriculturists were down in the mouth while the dairy industry appeared to prosper without great difficulty. Now that happy state of things has come very largely to an end. I particularly welcome the efforts which His Majesty's Government are making to provide either free milk or milk at a very low price for nursing mothers and young children, for whom it is absolutely indispensable. I have always felt that the question of milk distribution was even more complicated and difficult than milk production. For a number of reasons there are small distributors and others whose interests have had to be considered, because they serve a section of the public who could not be altogether looked after by the great distributing firms. I trust that that aspect of the question will be most carefully considered and dealt with in the scheme which His Majesty's Government have in hand. I say no more except to offer in general terms a welcome to the efforts which His Majesty's Government are making.
4.16 p.m.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed at this stage to say that I have told the distributors, whose costs I have been into in great detail, that we
530
cannot look at the costs of distribution of milk without concern. I have invited the distributors to appoint a committee of six, and I have appointed a committee of business men, and I have asked this committee to go into the whole question of distribution costs. I have told the distributors that the increase of a penny that has been given to them is only for a period of three months, and I shall have to look into the matter again when I receive the report of the committee. Noble Lords may be assured, therefore, that I am looking into the problem of the distribution of milk.

COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
EVIDENCE AND POWERS OF ATTORNEY BILL, [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
LOCHABER WATER POWER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
SOUTH SUBURBAN GAS BILL, [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
BIRMINGHAM CONFIRMATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

THE FIFTH COLUMN: POSITION OF THE B.B.C.
4.17 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Paper in my name.
Moved, That leave may be given to advance the Motion of the Viscount Elibank—To ask His Majesty's Government what further steps they have taken to suppress Fifth Columnist activities in this country by the internment of both males and females, irrespective of age, of any nationality, who are or might be of service to the enemy, and whether they can now say that after thorough investigation they are satisfied with the integrity of every individual on the staff of or employed by the B.B.C. throughout the country; further, to urge that the Government assume for the duration of the war direct control of the B.B.C. throughout the country under the Minister of Information or some other Minister in charge responsible to the War Cabinet; and to move for Papers—from tomorrow to this day.—(Viscount Caldecote.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and leave given accordingly.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, in rising to ask this question and make my Motion for Papers, I should like first of all to acknowledge the courtesy of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House in arranging that the Motion should be taken to-day As your Lordships know, it was originally put down for to-day and then a Secret Session was arranged. As that has been abandoned I am permitted to move the Motion as was originally intended. The subject I am dealing with to-day is one which was debated a fortnight ago, but it is of even greater significance on this occasion, since Italy has entered the war. Consequently, it is more important than ever to be careful about the aliens in our midst, and not only the aliens, but even persons of British nationality who are so perverted and traitorous, as some of them evidently are, as to wish to help the enemy. Since the debate a fortnight ago, I have had sheaves of letters upholding my action in opening the matter for discussion and giving very useful and interesting information. Such of that information as I thought of real value, I have passed on to the Home Office for investigation and action.
I should like, at any rate, to give the Home Office credit for this, that they have been considerably more active since I spoke here a fortnight ago. But even
532
now I do not consider that they are sufficiently active. There still seems a very great deal to do, and considerably more activity is required. It is a fact that the original Category C of aliens who were passed by the aliens tribunals set up for the purpose were regarded with far too friendly an eye. Their cases were examined at a time when we had not the unhappy examples of the betrayal of Norway and Holland before us. There seems to be little doubt that the special tribunals which were set up for that purpose were heavily imbued with the spirit which the noble Duke described so feelingly in the debate a fortnight ago and in which I could have agreed with him in ordinary times—namely, that this country has always been a haven for refugees, political and others, of other nations, and we did not wish to disturb this policy more than was necessary even in this war. But to-day we are engaged in the most terrible and terrific war that has ever been waged; we are engaged in a life-and-death struggle; we are engaged against the most ruthless, treacherous and barbarous enemy that has ever been known, an enemy that is even now at our gates. Consequently I suggest that we must modify that humane spirit at the present time.
The risks which we might be prepared to take in ordinary times cannot be taken to-day in this war. So it comes to this: that in my judgment the police should be given very wide powers immediately to arrest and intern aliens in spite of their having been classed in Category C, and they should be empowered to use their discretionary responsibility in those cases where they consider it desirable in the country's interest. While I am on this point I should like to ask the noble Duke how it is that Chief Constables are not already in possession of those powers. I have been informed that at the Home Office there is a volume of Defence Regulations that has existed for some years, and that, either at the end of 1939 or at the beginning of this year, those Regulations were amended so as to give the police very wide powers of arrest without warrant in those cases where the safety of the realm was at stake. I wish to ask the noble Duke categorically whether, if this is the case, the Home Office have distributed these amended Regulations to all Chief Constables. I have reason to believe that this has not been done in all

533
cases. If the Regulations have not been so distributed, will he say why they have not been distributed after four months? I should be very glad if the noble Duke would give his reply to that question in the course of this debate. It seems to me that, if what I have heard is correct—namely, that these amended Regulations have not been distributed to all Chief Constables—there must be some blockage in the Home Office somewhere; or at least it gives colour to what I said on the last occasion about reluctance of the Home Office whole-heartedly getting on with its job.
I should also like to ask the noble Duke to arrange, if His Majesty's Government will do so, that fresh orders should now be issued by the Home Office eliminating these age limits of sixteen and seventy for internment of both classes of persons of any nationality. I cannot understand the reasons for those limitations. From every part of the country come stories of individuals either over seventy or under sixteen who are a danger to the State, and I see no reason—and I am sure that very few people in the country feel that there is any good reason—for maintaining these limits of age. Then I observe that while there have been many arrests and internments of Fascists of British nationality, there are others like Communists, Peace-Pledgers and so on, who continue to make speeches of a nature subversive of the national endeavour. I know that this is done; it is unnecessary to enumerate them here. I venture to suggest that these individuals should either be stopped from making these speeches or should be interned, or, if they are too dangerous, they should be both stopped and interned. In these days there is a very strong feeling that such offensive utterances are at this moment unfair to those who are putting forth the whole of their efforts. Many of our workmen, working seven days a week in order to win this war, feel it intolerable that these people should, openly and even without rebuke, be allowed to continue these intolerant and subversive speeches in favour of the enemy.
I should now like to come to the second part of my Motion, which is concerned with the British Broadcasting Corporation. All my information goes to show that the B.B.C., in London and elsewhere in the country, has a number of employees who
534
should not be a part of that establishment. Aliens are employed who have not only foreign names but also personal associations that are incompatible with the safety of that institution, one of the most vital and vulnerable in the country in the event of a German invasion. There are, I am told, not only those but also British people with German wives, Communists, pacifists and, I am advised, even a conscientious objector. I suggest that the B.B.C. should be sans reproche and absolutely pure in the integrity of its employees. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that to-day this requires no argument, if ever it did require one. I go so far as to say that the country will not be satisfied until there has been a thorough investigation of the personnel employed by the B.B.C. establishment in London, and wherever it exists in the country, by a Government Committee specially appointed for that purpose.
The British Broadcasting Corporation is a semi-official body, and the Director-General is appointed by the Corporation and is responsible to it. It is not under Government control, except that I have been advised that the Minister of Information is responsible for all official messages emanating from it and seeks to guide and direct their policy. That is surely all wrong; that such a vitally important institution at this time should not be under the direct control of the Government is something which ought to be altered with as little delay as possible. I strongly urge that the Minister of Information, who has proved his skill in propaganda and his definiteness of purpose, should be placed in direct control of the B.B.C. and be responsible to the War Cabinet for that institution.
Personally, I am not particularly concerned with the entertainment branch of the B.B.C., although this is, as we all know, a very important side so far as the public is concerned. There has been, however, much comment with regard to certain talks which have recently been delivered by a gentleman called the Rev. J. Middleton Murry—and I should like you to note that his name is spelt "Murry" and not "Murray" Certain talks delivered by him have caused the greatest heartburning amongst many of those who have listened to them. If your Lordships will bear with me I should like to read two short extracts from a

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talk which he gave some time about the third week of May, and which was reproduced in the Listener, a journal published by the B.B.C. every Thursday. The talks are entitled "A Christian looks at the world. Ends and Means. By J. Middleton Murry." These two short extracts which I wish to read to your Lordships will give you an indication of the sort of stuff which this gentleman sends over the air through the medium of a semi-official organisation of the Government:
"Human freedom, in the modern democratic sense, is a very recent invention; and perhaps it is premature to assert that there is any secure basis for it at all. Moreover, some countries have gone totalitarian in recent times without ceasing to be Christian, at least nominally. And is Britain more Christian that they?"
I leave that to speak for itself. The next extract from this talk is a little longer, but it is worth recording:
"Men will have to change; and change radically…. The responsibility of controlling the new technique is too much for the ordinary democratic man. He feels it is too much for him. And he surrenders the burden of a meaningless freedom which he knows he cannot exercise with knowledge. This is the main significance of modern totalitarianism. And I beg of you not to underestimate its positive value. To call it anti-Christian is to miss the mark. That is not the most important thing about it. It might be if there were any accepted Christian alternative solution to the problems totalitarianism tries to solve. But there isn't. As man is at present, totalitarianism is, I believe, his only refuge. He is not capable of taking responsibility as an individual, for directing the complexity of the modern industrial and social system to humane and peaceful ends; and he succumbs with relief to an authoritarian system."
Those are two extracts from a talk delivered by this gentleman over the air, and my attention was drawn to this talk by someone who felt very strongly that such utterances should not come from our broadcasting institution at the present time.
There are two other very short extracts, which I should like to be allowed to read. The first is from someone in the West of England, who writes:
"May I be allowed to suggest that you try"—
I am glad he says "try"—
"to read the script of The Shadow of the Swastika which was recently broadcast serially by the B.B.C.? I tried listening to it, but the artful manner in which an attack on
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Nazism was turned into a glorification of Communism nauseated me."
I received another letter this morning:
"Is the pro-German influence in our B.B.C. never to be removed? It is dreadful. Tonight at 7.40"—
the letter is dated June 6—
"there was a discussion on 'Prayer in wartime: should we pray for Victory?' It was a most disgraceful discussion belittling our National Day of Prayer, and there is to be another discussion on the same subject and on the peace terms next week. It was a most irreverent discussion and would do a great deal of harm to our noble reason for fighting and praying for victory."
I do not propose to give any more extracts, but I think that what I have said will show that some form of direct Government control is necessary over the British Broadcasting Corporation.
I do not wish to say anything against anyone in control of that Corporation, but no doubt the Director-General is responsible to the Corporation for the talks that are sent out. I believe that the Director-General is a man who in the last war was as brave as any man could be, and served his country with great distinction; but I understand that after the war he took on a different mind, perhaps as a result of what he suffered, and that from being a very brave fighting man he became what is known to-day as a pacifist. I have learned from certain inquiries that, for instance, he caused quite a stir in Belfast in 1936 when he banned the participation of the University O.T.C. in the Armistice Day celebration. Mr. Ogilvie is, so far as I can judge, a man without any axe to grind, and he has few strong views, except perhaps on the subject of peace; but I venture to suggest that that is not the type of mind that we need, during the terrible struggle in which we are engaged to-day with a most treacherous enemy, to conduct and administer the Broadcasting Corporation in this country. I think, moreover, that the facts which I have laid before your Lordships with regard to the type of employees who are employed there show that at least that side of the administration requires some examination, as well as the establishment itself.
I do not wish to keep your Lordships very much longer. I only wish to add that in moving this Motion to-day I desire to emphasize again to the Government that there are all over the country the most intense interest in and the greatest

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anxiety over the matters of which I have spoken, and that the public as a whole will not be content unless they are handled firmly, expeditiously, and at once, and with full regard to the safety of the nation and of the Empire. I beg to move.
4.40 p.m.
THE MAKQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, who is about to intervene, will allow me to say a word first? My noble friend Lord Elibank, with whose speech I almost entirely agree, has made an attack on a very old friend and late colleague of mine, the head of the British Broadcasting Corporation, Mr. Ogilvie. Mr. Ogilvie was Vice-Chancellor of Belfast University. I am very sorry indeed that the noble Viscount should have made a reference to an incident that really requires explanation. I do not propose to give the full explanation to your Lordships in relation to Armistice Day in Belfast; I will only say that Mr. Ogilvie as Vice-Chancellor was anxious that the ceremony on Armistice Day should be a university ceremony, and not a military ceremony. The military ceremony at Belfast was held at another place. I only say this in justice to Mr. Ogilvie, who has carried out his work remarkably well and, I am quite convinced, does not come under the term "pacifist" which the noble Viscount has applied to him. Otherwise, I do not quarrel with one word the noble Viscount has said, because I entirely agree with him.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I think I ought to reply to that at once. I of course accept what my noble friend has said about Mr. Ogilvie. I could only judge by what was stated publicly in the Press and elsewhere as to the condition of the establishment of the B.B.C. to-day, and by the quotations which I have read out, and which speak for themselves. Of course, as far as Professor Ogilvie's personal character is concerned, I must accept what my noble friend has said, while not withdrawing any of the case which I have made.
4.42 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I should at any time be delighted to give way to the noble Marquess or any other of your Lordships, especially to one who had so pertinent a matter to explain. My noble friend Lord Addison has asked me to
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state our point of view on the very important matters contained in the Motion of the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, and I may explain that I have had the advantage of consulting not only my noble friend Lord Addison on what I am now going to say, but also my right honourable friend Mr. Lees-Smith, who has taken on the rather thankless task of the Chairmanship of my Party in another place. Therefore what I say may, I think, be taken to approximate to the views of my friends in both Houses. With regard to what the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, has said about the rounding up of Fifth Columnists, we agree that no risks are justified there, and we do not wish in any way to criticise the measures taken. If the Government think it is necessary to confine more people of any nationality, we will support them whole-heartedly. But a great many of these people who have to be interned are undoubtedly well disposed towards this country. It has been difficult to separate the sheep from the goats, and I understand from what the noble Duke, the Duke of Devonshire, let fall on the last occasion, that the hard cases are going to be reviewed—with that we have no quarrel at all—but could not some means be found of usefully employing those who are well disposed to this country?
After all, in the war of 1914–1918 the German soldier prisoners did very valuable work on the farms, and they liked doing it. One of them married the daughter of a farmer, a neighbour of mine. They were married secretly and the fact came out after the Armistice. They rendered very useful work to the farmer—I am not referring to this particular episode. When I had the honour of representing Hull in another place I had the most terrible trouble in connection with a private in the Guards who was missing after the prisoners of war came back from Germany, and after I had been chasing the War Office, the Foreign Office and other Departments, eventually this Guardsman was found to be living on a farm in East Prussia, where he had married the farmer's daughter (the men being away or killed) and he had hidden his identity and did not want to come back. These things, therefore, may happen. As I say, the enemy subjects whom we have interned—and now we have many Italians who, quite rightly, have been taken into custody—should be

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put to some useful work. We are short of man-power already in certain directions, and I am sure those who are well-disposed will be only too glad to help in the national effort.
With regard to the British Broadcasting Corporation, what the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, said about the broadcast talks of Mr. Middleton Murry is, I venture to say, justified. Those broadcasts should never have been allowed. The man is known to some of my noble friends. He is what is called a near Communist; he is extremely clever, and I was disgusted by one of his talks I listened to myself. With great subtlety he puts the Nazi case—and these were broadcasts made while the war had been raging for some months—and he puts forward a most insidious argument favouring the doctrine of non-resistance. At such a time this is a dangerous doctrine. However, we have moved a long way from the days when Mr. Middleton Murry was given the air, as they say in the United States of America.
With regard to the remedy proposed by the noble Viscount, my Party are, and always have been, a little doubtful about the wisdom of making the B.B.C. a Government Department. We think it should be made answerable to Parliament—we think there is that amount of justice in the claims of the noble Viscount. But with regard to the entertainment side of the B.B.C., which is very important, especially in war time, we tremble to think of its being controlled by the Civil Service, and I hope in this connection that the report that light variety is going to be cut out of the programmes is untrue. I venture to suggest to the noble Duke, the Duke of Devonshire, and also to my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, who takes an interest in these matters, that in time of war entertainment is very necessary. The people cannot be listening to bulletins and communiqués about the war all the time; they need relaxation. My noble friend beside me, Lord Marley, says, "They have got the House of Lords," but they do not broadcast your Lordships' House. I wish they would; they would get better entertainment and instruction than they do from many of the things they broadcast.
But, apart from the horrible effect on the entertainment side of the programmes
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that would result from making the B.B.C. a Government Department, it would, we fear, become too partisan. My noble friend Lord Addison's plan is that you should have a Minister answerable to Parliament for the B.B.C., but he should be advised by an all-Party committee—or a non-Party committee, it does not matter—and the B.B.C. should not be used only for putting the political views to the people of the dominant Party in power. I myself would resist the exclusive use of broadcasting by my own Party if we, later on, formed a Government, just as I would resist its exclusive use by, for example, my Conservative friends. Certainly the Minister of Information makes full use of the British Broadcasting Corporation, and the matter I am now going very briefly to refer to is one I approach with some delicacy.
My right honourable friend Mr. Duff Cooper earned the gratitude of many people and the admiration of myself by the stand he took at the time of the Munich Agreement. We have had a warm corner in our hearts for him ever since. I should not have publicly referred to this matter at all if it had not been discussed in another place last night and if it had not also been referred to in a very powerful and very excellent leading article in the Daily Herald to-day. On Monday night we knew that Signor Mussolini had drawn his unfortunate people into war, and the opinion of my friends and of the Government has been well expressed in both Houses of Parliament of that dastardly and cowardly act. One reason undoubtedly why certain Italians have supported this warlike policy of Signor Mussolini is the rankling feeling of soreness over reflections made on their military prowess in the past. Those of your Lordships who know the Italians will bear me out in that. They are very tender indeed if anyone refers to military failures on their part. All nations have their military failures. It was the great Napoleon who said, "The English could only fight properly at sea because there they could not run away." He was wrong, but we have had our military failures too. This is a point on which Italians of all classes and all political creeds are naturally sensitive. Furthermore, we know that a great many Italians, including some of the finest scholars, men of affairs and statesmen in that country, are bitterly opposed to the

541
entry of Italy into the war as ally of Nazi Germany. We know that; it is true.
I have here the text of this particular broadcast by Mr. Duff Cooper to which I am going to refer and which was made at the beginning of the 9 o'clock news on Monday evening. This is the actual text issued to the Press, so I take it that it is authentic, and I propose to read to your Lordships one sentence:
"…after the disgraceful flight of the Italian Army at Caporetto, the British and the French had to dispatch troops at great inconvenience to themselves in order to restore the position in Italy and put back some courage in the hearts of the Italians."
That sentence will be of great value to Dr. Goebbels, who will make sure that it is extensively known in Italy. This broadcast was not only given to the British people, but to America and to the British Empire at the same time.
There is another sentence at the end to which I must also refer, because one has to say these things. This war is not going to be won by vulgarity. Italy is a country which contains some of the greatest monuments in the world—some of the most famous relics of the great architects of the past, which belong to the culture of the whole world. Our Minister of Information found it possible to say the following. He referred to Mussolini as a "murderer," which I agree was justified—he is a murderer, and I am glad to see Mr. Ernest Bevin reminded us of his murder of the great Italian trade union leader Signor Matteotti. But one can feel strongly about these things without descending to the language of guttersnipes. Mr. Duff Cooper then said:
"He will bring misery and starvation upon his people; he will leave nothing behind him but the curses of those whom he has betrayed; he will increase the number of ruins for which Italy has long been famous."
That is not worthy of our nation. As for the plea that it is necessary to make this sort of broadcast to rouse the spirit of the British people, I know as much about the spirit of the British people as does the Minister of Information. My Party for the most part come from working-class homes, and the spirit of this people does not need artificial stimulus in the present crisis. They only wanted leadership from the beginning. The spirit of this people will yet astonish the world.
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There is one other matter to which I must refer, and that is the proposal of Lord Elibank that the Minister of Information should control the B.B.C. Mr. Duff Cooper himself does not want to do that. In this same discussion in the House of Commons last night—I do not know if Lord Elibank is aware of this—my right honourable friend the Minister of Information made this remark:
"I do not intend to take over the administration of the B.B.C. or to be responsible in any way for their entertainment programme. So far as announcements on political subjects and reports of news are concerned, however, I have satisfied myself that machinery now exists whereby I can exercise complete control over what is said on important political matters."
I therefore find myself able to support His Majesty's Government against the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, in this particular matter.
I prefer people who boast when they take their armour off rather than when they put it on. It is a great mistake in war to under-estimate your enemies. That is the mistake we made about Nazi Germany from the beginning. The Minister of Information has a most important duty in this war. He has to reorganise and increase the efficiency of a vast organisation with branches and tentacles spreading all over the world. That is a full-time duty. Mr. Duff Cooper has made some interesting and heartening broadcasts, but if he is going to broadcast every day he will neglect that much more important work of administration and reorganisation. It must be one thing or the other. We need great inspirers who can broadcast to us and to other nations, but we also need a great administrator at the Ministry of Information. With regard to propaganda generally, I am sure your Lordships will agree that we should hit hard in our propaganda, but also you will agree that we must be sure it consists of blows in the right direction.
4.59 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, there are one or two observations I should like to make on the Motion before your Lordships' House. Everyone is deeply concerned for national security. There is no one in this House who would suggest any step being taken which is counter to the safety of this country; but I greatly hope that the Government and the public will

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take the view that an insufficiently discriminating internment of aliens, especially those of German origin, whether they are in Category B or Category C, cannot be in all circumstances either necessary or right. I am sure that the Government are right to intern individuals, whether they are of alien or British nationality and however numerous they may be, whose loyalty they have reason to suspect, but I venture to think—and I have some knowledge in this matter—that the internment of aliens of German and Austrian origin irrespective of character, irrespective of their attitude to the Nazi régime, irrespective of their devotion to the interests and cause of this country and our Allies, is demanded neither by national security nor by justice.
The task of the Home Office is a very heavy task and, in my own personal experience, I have found during these past years in connection with aliens that the officials have always taken an immense amount of care, worked with great thoroughness and shown a deep sense of responsibility. I think that the country should be grateful to the officials for the mixture of firmness and consideration with which they have consistently discharged a difficult and thankless task. In facing the problem of national security and suspected persons I suggest that there are various categories. There are first the proved British Fifth Columnists. These are men and women of undoubted danger to the country, and they should be interned. There are also spies who get into this country by various ways, and there are foreigners of dangerous or unreliable character. They also should be interned. There are others who have been in some cases long resident in this country who are now interned because they were rounded up on Whit Sunday or Whit Monday last. I am sorry about their case. I think that there are genuine hardships and some injustice here too.
But there is one large group of aliens of German and Austrian origin who stand in a category entirely by themselves: I mean the genuine refugees from Hitlerism who have either fled here or been driven here because of the cruelty they have suffered and because of the persecutions they have endured in Germany or Austria. They regard Hitlerism and
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the Nazi régime with horror. Many of them have been in concentration camps themselves. For all of them life in Germany was no life. They were treated as, and they were, outcasts because of their race or because in some cases of a very strong anti-Nazi political opinion. They have come to our country, where they have been living in safety, and where they have been very grateful guests. Our cause is their cause. If such a thing were conceivable as the victory of Hitler which I refuse to contemplate, it would be terrible to us, but it would be trebly terrible to them, and yet upon a very large number of these men and women who have been the victims of these internment orders commencing on Whit Sunday, the new policy has fallen most heavily. It is just the accident that one of these refugee males of the category I have named was on that Sunday living in a protected area that caused him to be interned. He had no choice, no three days notice to leave the protected area. The process of arrest was, in all cases of which I know myself, kindly and considerately performed. The police are very considerate; but the fact remains unaltered.
I could say much because I know a large number of these men and some of the women, but I am content—and I appeal to your Lordships' sense of justice—to call attention to the strangeness of the decision taken by the Government under great pressure which has had the effect of placing men and women, who have been rescued from Hitlerism and who are full of gratitude to this country, in internment camps in this country because the British authorities, and some portion of the British public, suppose these persons are anxious to bring the Nazis who are their bitterest enemies here into England. I am aware that the charge will be made that the internment of many of these persons, while possibly unjust and certainly involving hardships, was necessitated by conditions of national security. I am speaking with deliberation, and I confine my remarks only to the refugees, but I should like to say this. First, the agitation for the internment of these refugees or for the infliction of penalties upon them shows an extraordinary lack of confidence on the part of the public in the ordinary police authorities and the ordinary Government authorities. I think some of your Lord-

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ships are well aware, and all your Lordships should remember, the sifting which has gone on. There was on the one hand the visa to be issued by the Consul in Germany, there was, not for all but for the great majority of these refugees, a voluntary organisation responsible for their escape to this country after the war, there was the tribunal presided over by a lawyer or a Judge All these refugees are registered with the police, the police know everything about them, and in certain cases there has been a second tribunal when their cases have been subject to appeal. What, then, are the grounds for this sudden reversal?
Next, it is said—but so often these remarks are vague and general—that there have been spies among the refugees. It is possible that a few spies have slipped through, but the number is out of all proportion to the total number of the refugees concerned. I was talking only this morning to the Secretary of the German Emergency Committee of the Society of Friends, who has herself been responsible for a very large number of refugees who have come to this country. She tells me that not a single spy has been amongst them. Also, the voluntary organisations have always kept in touch with the Home Office and with the police authorities, and they have been scrupulous when any doubt or any irregularity of any kind has occurred in reporting that doubt or that irregularity to the Home Office or to the police.
Further, national security and national service are not altogether disconnected. Large numbers of the men who have now been so suddenly interned were actually working for the Government when they were taken. Some of your Lordships know the camp of the Pioneer Corps at Richborough. The men who were working at Richborough as proved and trusted servants of the Government, because they lived in Richborough, on Whit Sunday last were removed from Richborough and are now interned. They do not understand it. This action is really depriving the country of valuable work. These men were encouraged—rather strongly encouraged—to join the Pioneer Corps. They most willingly accepted this opportunity of serving the country to which they are so grateful. Now they are interned and out of action, unable to help. There is another category of considerable
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importance—quite a different class. Amongst the internees lately made are something like thirty scholars of great eminence in Europe whose loyalty to this country is beyond any manner of doubt. Some of these men have made very great contributions to science and to learning in various branches. Some of them have been doing work for the Government. Now they are useless. They cannot work. There is an extraordinary waste of their capacity. Even if they were allowed to go harvesting when the time comes, they would be doing infinitely less service in the camp as internees than they could do if they were outside and have done.
I believe that, all unconsciously, acts of injustice have been done. I also venture to say that, all unconsciously, the policy—unless, as I hope, it is changed—is playing into Hitler's own hands. I do not understand how the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, can really miss that point. I am sure that that is the remark which is made in secret in his chamber by many a Nazi leader in Germany, and I can have little doubt that it is not an uncommon impression abroad. I would suggest that there are certain steps which ought to be taken for the sake of justice. When the Order was made, it was described as a temporary measure and hope was given that there would be a re-examination of the cases which were admittedly hard. I would like to suggest that that promise should be implemented with all speed, and that there should be local tribunals in the camps set up now which should have the power to order the release of persons of indubitable integrity and loyalty. I should further like special consideration given to the hardships of students, boys and girls just over sixteen, going through their ordinary school course.
But if nothing can be done for a large number of individual cases of undoubted integrity—and I hope that is not the case—I still hope that special action may be taken with regard to the conditions under which these men are interned. As to the women's camps in the Isle of Man, I should like to take this opportunity of paying a very high tribute to the splendid way in which the arrangements for the women in the Isle of Man have been conducted. No one could have been appointed of greater good will and ability than Lady Ampthill for the supervision of those camps, and the life, spirit

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and full protection of the internees in the Isle of Man are beyond reproach. But the situation in the men's camps is very different. The great camp at Huyton, outside Liverpool, was originally intended to be a transit camp, but now the men internees have been there for several weeks. I am not criticising the conduct or the good will or the splendid care that the local officials wish to give. Nothing could exceed the kindness of the men on the spot, but through circumstances beyond their control they have been impeded in providing the conditions which your Lordships would yourselves admit to be necessary. Correspondence between the internees and their relatives outside has been very difficult. There have been great delays in receiving letters and there has been a great shortage of paper on which to write.
There is one particular lack which I think will surprise your Lordships. No newspapers are allowed in the camp at Huyton, and no news gets through to the internees. In the other camps, newspapers are allowed, but in Huyton—and I believe it is the case in one other camp where these refugees are interned—there are no news-sheets. Therefore the most extraordinary rumours get round about the state of the war; the fears of the internees are enhanced, and the mental strain is very great. I am allowed to make an offer if it were of any value to produce a broad-sheet of appropriate news for the purpose of that camp in Huyton which would give the minimum—if a minimum is thought to be necessary—of facts and information about the progress of the war and life outside. I should also like to suggest—and there are reasons for making this suggestion—that the camp should be subject to the supervision of the medical officer of health. I realise also the difficulties of providing an organisation in a place which had these internees so suddenly thrust upon it, and I have every sympathy with the men who have to do the work. All I would ask is that the help of the authorities in London should be given to make good the various defects.
I should like to make two other suggestions before I close. The first is that refugees of undoubted loyalty might if possible be released from internment but not given complete freedom. I have reason to know that there are many
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citizens, including ministers of religion, who would be willing to make homes for these refugees and keep them under the joint supervision of themselves and the police. I believe that would in itself be a considerable lightening of the difficulties of accommodation as well as of supervision. I would also ask that, if the system of internment is to be maintained, it should be improved, and in particular that married couples should be allowed to live together When they are interned. None of your Lordships would, I am sure, think that an unreasonable request. I ask your Lordships' pardon for bringing these observations before you, but I am concerned for the good name of this country, and I am also concerned that the refugees who were welcomed before should not feel themselves outcasts a second time. I know something of them and of the melancholy and depression from which so many of them are suffering now. Therefore I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I speak in this way and ask that some care may be given to the needs of these fellow human beings whose loyalty to our cause and to the cause of the Allies is beyond all doubt.
5.24 p.m.
LORD MARCHWOOD: My Lords, I cannot but feel that most of your Lordships must have listened to the remarks of the right reverend Prelate with amazement. One would almost imagine he does not appear to realise that we are at war and that the lives of our own people would be endangered if we were to carry out the suggestions which he makes so glibly. I can quite realise that these people may loathe the Hitler régime, but that does not mean that they would wish to see Germany overthrown. No one wishes at any time to be other than fair-minded, whether it be to refugees or to anybody else of that character in distress; and I am sure that a Britisher would always wish that all should have fair play. But it seems to me that we must also have fair play for those who are fighting for us. We must see that they are protected in every possible way; and what is being done is the only way of ensuring that. I would go still further and say "Intern the lot, and put the onus upon them to prove that they are in favour of this Government and of what we are doing, and are not working behind the scenes for Hitler and his brutal band."

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I did not intend to intervene to-day, because the noble Viscount who moved this Motion dealt with all its aspects so comprehensively, but seeing that I asked in the last debate whether the Government would approach the United States of America, who had expressed willingness to help in every possible way with the refugee problem by giving money, material and kind, and ask whether they would take some of them over there to help us in our present plight, I would like to renew that question. To-day this country is an area of war and is no place for refugees. I would like to ask the noble Duke whether representations were made to the United States of America. The right reverend Prelate tells us about the hardships of these people in the Isle of Man, although he praises the Home Office for what they have done.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: Not the Isle of Man. I particularly praised the treatment of women internees in the Isle of Man.
LORD MARCHWOOD: I think they are being very well treated indeed, far better than the wives of the men who are fighting for us. I do not see why they should be given such a happy time when the wives of the men who are fighting for us are bearing such hardships over here. These people come over to this country not for our good but for their own, and so long as we are fair and treat them fairly we are playing our part. I sincerely hope the Home Secretary will do nothing in the way of giving them news of what is going on, as suggested. I am amazed that such a thing is asked for at such a time. We might almost imagine that people thought it was a picnic and not a war.
There was one other point I would touch upon, and that concerns the B.B.C. I have received many letters, and I can well understand people wondering whether we have in the personnel of the B.B.C. other than really staunch Britishers. They give us information from time to time over the air when a bomber comes across and misses its objective: they describe where it dropped its bombs and by how much it missed its objective. That is no news for our people in times of stress like these; it simply helps Germany, for possibly the bomber did not know where; he was when
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he dropped his bombs, and the B.B.C. give him all this information. It may all be quite above board, but it is not sound to give statements which will help the enemy in this way. Therefore I hope that the inquiries which the noble Viscount has asked for will be most vigorously carried out. My main reason in rising was to say how much I deplored the speech of the right reverend Prelate, and I feel that in saying what I have I am voicing the opinion of the majority in this House.
5.29 p.m.
LORD METHUEN: My Lords, I only wish to draw to the noble Duke's attention a particular case which has come to my notice. While I do not doubt the sincerity and the good faith of the leaders of any German peace organisation which has settled here since the coming into power of the National-Socialist régime in Germany, it would seem both unfair to them and asking for trouble to ourselves not to take certain quite definite steps, particularly where such organisations are located in areas of strategic importance, and where in fact any hostile element could make itself extremely unpleasant to us. I suggest that such centres should be subject to local internment, and have police or even a military guard billeted on the spot. This would safeguard not only our own interests but also the lives and property of the organisation referred to. In the particular case of which I gave particulars to the noble Duke, I should like to add that local feeling is running very high, and I am sure that he least of all wishes to see a disturbance of the peace.
I inspected this community with a friend of mine a week or so ago, and I should like to record my gratitude for the way in which we were received. We were shown everything that we wanted to see and every question was quite obviously answered sincerely and fully. I still think, however, that we should not let these things go by too easily. My friend and I had no doubt of the sincerity of the leaders, but accidents will happen, and, after all, we are fighting an exceedingly crafty foe who stops at nothing to deceive us. For the sake of the members of this community themselves, I do beg the noble Duke to see that the Home Office takes full precautions to protect our interests and to protect the lives and property of the community as a whole.
5.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I shall endeavour to detain you for a very few moments only, but there are one or two things which I desire to say. This Motion raises two entirely-distinct subjects—what the noble Viscount has described as "Fifth Column activities," and the control of the B.B.C. I should like to say a word about each. I confess that I find myself altogether of a different opinion from that expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Marchwood. We all agree with him that every measure which is necessary for the safety of the country ought to be taken, but I think that he misinterprets the views of those with whom he disagrees when he says that they do not realise the importance or the seriousness of the war. That is not the case at all. I am quite sure that the right reverend Prelate understands that just as well as the noble Lord.
LORD MARCHWOOD: If my words conveyed that meaning, I should like to withdraw them at once. I realise that those of whom I spoke must appreciate how important it is that we should see the danger that accompanies the state of war that we are in at the present time, and I am quite sure that the right reverend Prelate realises that as much as I do; that is why I deplored his speech.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: It is not a question of doing everything that we regard as necessary for the safety of the country; we are all agreed about that, and there is no doubt or dispute about it. No one would say that the interests of any individual should stand in the way of the safety of the country at this moment. On the other hand, I think that it is very harsh to suggest, as the noble Lord apparently did, that these refugees have come over here of their own free will. That is probably true of a certain number, but we all know—the right reverend Prelate knows a great deal about it, and I know a little—of the terrible happenings which have driven some of these men and women out of their countries, with the absolute loss of the whole of their property and their total ruin. Often they have escaped from a concentration camp or something of that kind, having suffered terribly. They come here and they are received in the first instance with hospitality and kindness, but then, owing to the further misdeeds
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of the very people who have oppressed them, they are interned and suffer at any rate a considerable limitation of their happiness, and they are deprived of the means of earning their own livelihood. It may be that their means of doing so are permanently destroyed. That is a case which ought to be considered. It must not stand against or in competition with the safety of the country, I agree; but surely we ought to do our best—I think that even the noble Lord, Lord Marchwood, will agree with this—so to arrange the necessary precautions which are taken as not to do serious injustice in particular cases. I think that that is all for which the right reverend Prelate really asked, and it is certainly all that I ask. I believe, or at any rate I hope, that the Government are in this matter of the same opinion as ourselves.
There is also the other side of the question, which must not be ignored, although I agree that it is of less importance. Some of these people have already been of great service to us economically; they have done a great deal of work for us which is really of great value. I read only this afternoon—I will not go into the details of it—a passionate appeal for good treatment for some of those who could really be of great service to us in the actual fighting in which we are engaged, who for special reasons have knowledge which is perhaps not possessed by anyone else in this country. All those things must be considered; but I quite agree that we must take the utmost precautions to avoid finding ourselves in the position in which some other countries have found themselves, of an invader finding friends in our midst, and I am quite content personally to support any measures that the Government of the day think necessary for that purpose.
Just a word about the B.B.C. I am afraid that I do not share the view that it would be a good thing to put the B.B.C. under the control of the Government, unless it were thought absolutely necessary to do so. I think it would be a very dangerous thing. The B.B.C. is a great organ of information. I do not want to see us drifting into the position of Germany, with all information under the control of the Government. We see the consequences there. I do not want to see a British Goebbels. I dare say that we should not develop one. Whatever

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authority were given to the Minister of Information, I trust that he would never degenerate into a Goebbels. Even if, however, you do not have a Goebbels but have a relatively honest and straightforward man, you are giving him tremendous power if you give him the power to say that the country shall read and hear only what he approves. That is a state of things which even in war-time—indeed, especially in war-time—I should deplore.
We have seen in this debate how difficult the matter is. My noble friend Lord Elibank is most anxious to have the Minister of Information in control, but my noble friend Lord Strabolgi thinks that the Minister of. Information is the very man who requires control himself. Whoever is put in control, it will be found that some people will disagree with him. There is the very great advantage that where there is a relative freedom—and it is not possible to have more than a relative freedom, I agree—there is a power of correcting anything which is said which is untrue. I admit that I am a fanatical believer in liberty. I know that that is not popular with some noble Lords opposite, but I really am. I do believe that it is the thing which will bring us through this war, and bring us through this war triumphantly. It is because we have through centuries educated our people to a deep sense of personal responsibility and a great sense of individuality. We heard the other day eloquent and absolutely truthful testimony to the magnificent work that is being done by our airmen, and to the fact, which appears to be undoubted, that they are individually greatly superior to their German opponents. Why? Because they have got much more individuality and self-reliance than the men who have been trained under the German system never to think for themselves but always to do only what the Government tell them.
I believe personally that we should make a most profound mistake in the interests of victory if we were to nibble away unnecessarily at the great fabric of liberty which we have erected. I, personally, should regret most bitterly if the view were taken that opinions with which I personally profoundly disagree should not be heard even in war-time, provided they do not go beyond a certain point. We all agree that there must be a certain
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limit—the law has always provided a limit, and I do not wish to cut it down; indeed I recognise that in war-time there are certain other things which must be put out of bounds besides the things which are out of bounds under the ordinary system of our law. But I earnestly appeal to your Lordships not to give any colour to the view that, fighting this crushing system of dictatorship on behalf of liberty, we are ourselves going to diminish that liberty which we have enjoyed over so many centuries.
5.42 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I ask your Lordships' permission to intervene for one moment to make a correction of an error into which, I am sure unwittingly, my noble friend Lord Elibank fell in his opening speech. I understood my noble friend to say that Professor Ogilvie, who is at the head of the B.B.C., is a pacifist. I was very much astonished when I listened to that observation, because I had the honour of serving in the same battalion as Professor Ogilvie, and I am aware that at a later period of his service he went abroad and fought for his country, and was very severely wounded; in fact, he lost his left hand as the result of the wound. Upon hearing my noble friend's observation I took the necessary steps to find out directly from Professor Ogilvie whether there is any shred of foundation for the suggestion that he is a pacifist, and I have his authority absolutely to deny it.
5.43 p.m.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, I desire briefly to allude to another form of indiscriminate action which would come under the admonition of the right reverend Prelate, who in my opinion has made out a very strong case against an indiscriminate policy in the matter of aliens. It has been suggested that in some districts an order should be given at short notice to aliens to evacuate the district en bloc. It would be better far to intern them than to turn out people who have nowhere to go and no money to pay for removal in most cases, thus causing confusion and disorganisation. There has been fear of such action in North London, in the Hendon neighbourhood. In Golders Green there happen to be very large numbers of refugees, and it would be far easier to keep a watch on them there, where they are well known to the police, than it would be if they were

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suddenly scattered and obliged to move from place to place, unable to find suitable lodging. If driven to one of the safer areas, again, they would occupy space which may be required later on for British civilians evacuated from London or from the -coast; and if obliged to give up their work and incur the expense of moving it is probable that many would have to apply for public assistance and become a burden to the State.
That is just another illustration of the urgent case that the right reverend Prelate has made. Everyone, of course, would support the plea of the noble Viscount for Governmental action against spies and traitors, but he, I think, would agree that we must be careful to avoid loss of service which may be obtained from refugees who have special knowledge and skill, and he would agreee—we all should—that suffering should be avoided if it is imposed without need. A panic atmosphere is not helpful to the Government. The Government have rightly discriminated in the matter of aliens in a marked degree, and a great many leading men have expressed a warning against what has been called "spy mania." The Archbishop of York, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and others wrote just lately in the New Statesman urging that anti-alien propaganda is causing needless suffering to people who have already been through terrible experiences. They say:
"The vast majority of refugees, being themselves the victims of Nazi terrorism, are as hostile to this régime as we are ourselves. We appeal on their behalf to all citizens of good will to check this cruel and ill-informed propaganda, while supporting the action taken for national safety."
Mr. Ramsay Muir and other well-known political authorities have written to point out the advantage we have gained from the work of scientists, doctors and industrialists, some of whom have added to employment, and even largely contributed to our export trade. Everyone knows that there are anti-Nazi aliens who are on the black list of the Gestapo. The chief danger of Holland was not from refugees, but from Dutch nationals, and there is plenty of evidence that the danger in Belgium was similar. No doubt, to ensure national safety, considerable suffering for the innocent is involved, but there is clearly a necessary point at which a line should be drawn.
5.48 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I would like the last speaker before the Government representative replies to be one who said that national safety has to be the first consideration, for that is really what we all feel, and all the humanitarian considerations have to take second place. The Government have been advised this afternoon to take all sorts of different courses. They have been advised to "intern the lot," meaning the aliens, and they have been advised not quite to let them all out, but certainly not to intern any more, and to let a good many out. You cannot generalise about these things. Everybody knows that there are quite a number of enemy aliens who have done useful service in this country, and who dislike the Nazi régime. On the other hand, it is impossible to be quite certain that all those who have been the subject of persecution by the Nazi régime are, in fact, any more favourably inclined to this Government, because the very result of that persecution may be to enlist them as agents of the Gestapo. They may have had to leave relatives and friends in Germany, and they may be forced by a system of blackmail to do work against this country over here. I do not think that a fantastic suggestion, and it is one in these days of national danger which must not be overlooked.
There is just one observation I want to make from an angle which has not been touched upon yet in this debate. This question of national safety is in the hands partly of the military and partly of the police. What we want at the present time is the greatest possible collaboration and the greatest possible confidence between one Department and the other. It is not very many months since I made a speech in your Lordships' House, saying I hoped that the tradition of this country as a country of asylum would be maintained. That is the traditional policy of this country, and it is a policy with which the Home Office is very much imbued. I am not suggesting that the Home Office, being very much imbued with the policy of asylum, has been too slow to take action when asked to do so by the military, but suggestions have been made—my noble friend did not make them—that there has been obstruction on the part of the Home Office. I am not concerned to defend the Home Office, be-

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cause I do not know the facts, but I know the traditional policy is that this country is a country of asylum, and in this time of national crisis we have to see to it that that policy is modified. National safety has got to come first. It would be very unfortunate if through any alleged reluctance on the part of the Home Office to take action, the impression was given that there was obstruction. It would be very unfortunate if, on the other hand, there was any allegation that the military wished to have people arrested without adequate evidence. There is, all over the country, a sort of wave of denunciation by people of one another. That possibly comes from the feeling that everything has not been done.
I hope my noble friend will do nothing to encourage the idea that there is reluctance in any official quarter to take action where need is shown. I do not think there is. I believe the necessary machinery is there, and the plea I wish to make is for the greatest possible collaboration between the Services. We ought to establish confidence as far as we can—confidence which I believe is justified—in the arrangements that exist so that there should not be any ground for lack of confidence on the part of people, which leads to distress and to unfounded allegations. I believe a great deal is being done, and I do not think any purpose is served by saying every enemy alien has got to be interned. There are a lot of British sub-pects who are perhaps more dangerous than enemy aliens. The only thing is to have confidence in the administration. I believe that collaboration between the civil and military administrations will give the results we want. We must not generalise, and we must do everything we can to encourage and stimulate public confidence.
5.53 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, my noble friend who spoke last made a most admirable contribution to the debate. I am able to assure him that what he said in his opening words is, in fact, the policy of the Government. Public security must come first. It is realized that in pursuit of that policy injustice and hardship may be caused, and while the Government hesitate, and I believe rightly hesitate, to
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cause hardship wherever it can be avoided, they are not deterred by the fear of causing hardship from putting public safety first. Subject to that consideration it is quite obviously undesirable to intern people who need not be interned.
The noble Lord opposite, Lord Methuen, referred to the case of a community in the West Country. That community is one that has been the cause of some anxiety to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. It consists of pacifists and conscientious objectors, a number of them Germans. They live in a community, they take no wages, they live off the produce of their land, and sell the rest. They wear a kind of long brown dressing gown and long beards. In fact, they present an appearance which must convince any yokel or unthinking person they can only be German spies! Like my noble friend, I had a considerable period of service in our own Intelligence Service in the last war, and the last person I should dream of employing as a German spy would be one who spoke little, if any, English and wore a long beard and a long dressing gown. These unhappy brothers have now become the victims of so much suspicion and antagonism that they are themselves begging to be interned, and in fact they are in some danger unless they are interned. My right honourable friend is most anxious not to intern them. They are industrious farmers. They work literally from dawn to dark, they produce a great deal of foodstuffs, they have taken so many barren acres and turned them into valuable land. If they are interned they will cease to be a producing asset and become a drag on the country.
LORD METHUEN: Local internment in situ.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I know my right honourable friend will consider the noble Lord's suggestion. It is most desirable that some guard should be put upon them, and in that way they would be able to carry on their ordinary work and at the same time the fears of the public would be allayed. My noble friend Lord Marchwood asked whether an approach had been made to America with regard to the question of taking in these refugees or enemy aliens. The Government are in touch with America on that

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and other problems. I do not want to go into that in detail, but my noble friend will realise that shipping questions are involved and that events may well take such a course that we may want shipping for other purposes than conveying refugees to America.
The right reverend Prelate made a speech which commanded my sympathy and will probably command more sympathy when the war is over than it does to-day. I can assure him that, subject to the consideration I have mentioned, the Government are most anxious to avoid causing hardship, but I am advised that a general review of all aliens who recently have been interned would, at the present time, be really impossible. It is not, in fact, possible to prove a man's bona fides. I have no doubt that the vast majority of these unhappy people, for whom I feel the deepest sympathy, are genuine refugees from Hitler and are 100 per cent. with us in our endeavours to overthrow him; but equally there can be no doubt that there are some others, and it is difficult to decide between them. After all, there is no one except myself who can be perfectly sure that I am not a German spy! There is also the consideration that in some cases the safety of these people themselves requires that they should be interned. So far, we have not had heavy bombing over England. It is not unreasonable to say that we may expect much heavier bombing in the not distant future, and the consequent violent exacerbation of public feeling against the Germans may react upon these unhappy people if they are not interned. While the Government constantly put the consideration of public safety first, they are sympathetic so far as these people are concerned in the extremely difficult circumstances of the case.
The noble Lord opposite, Lord Strabolgi, raised a point about making some use of the activities of these interned persons. The Home Office and the War Office, the two Departments concerned, are most anxious that their services should be made use of. The question presents considerable difficulties, because to combine useful activity with close supervision is very difficult. The case is not upon all fours with that of the great number of German prisoners who were engaged in agriculture at the end of the
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last war. I saw a number of them myself, and my noble friend will realise that for the most part they were not the best of the German Army. They belonged to the Landsturm and other similar forces; their heart was not in the war, and they took the first opportunity of surrendering. It was felt that they were people who could be left largely to themselves while doing agricultural work. Many of the people whose internment is now necessary are not people of that type, they do require supervision, and the combination of supervision with making real use of their potential capacity is not an easy problem. I am specially asked to say that the Departments concerned will welcome any suggestions which my noble friend can make, and that they are bearing this question in mind at the present time. It is not one of urgency at the moment, because these people are being usefully employed in increasing the amenities and fulfilling the necessary requirements of the quarters where they are interned. But that occupation will not last for ever, and it is desirable that they should be put to some useful activity when their present work comes to an end. Any suggestions for making use of them would be much welcomed by the responsible Departments.
Now I come to the main Motion of my noble friend. It fell into three parts. He asked what steps had been taken by the Government to suppress Fifth Column activities, and whether the Government are satisfied with the integrity of the staff of the B.B.C., and he urged the Government to assume control of the B.B.C. I will deal with these three questions separately. When I last replied for the Government on this subject I said that their policy was fluid and not static, and that it would be adapted to the exigencies of the situation. Since then, in addition to the clearance from the south and east coast areas of male Germans and Austrians from sixteen to sixty, irrespective of category, which took place on May 11 and as a result of which some 2,800 persons were interned, and the general internment throughout the country on May 15 of Category B male Germans and Austrians from sixteen to sixty, as a result of which some 2,100 persons were interned, further steps have been taken which I think go a long way to meet what my noble friend asked for on the last

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occasion—namely, the general internment of Category B females from the age of sixteen to sixty, which took place on May 27 and affected over 3,000 persons, and the increase of age from sixty to seventy for both male and female Category B persons, which affected some 500 to 600 persons. The position now is that there are some 11,000 Germans and Austrians interned.
Two nights ago the general internment of all male Italians between sixteen and sixty who have less; than twenty years' residence in this country, as well as all others against whom there is any kind of suspicion, took place. On June 6 an order was made under which no enemy alien may have in his possession or under his control any wireless apparatus of any kind whatever without the express permission of the Secretary of State.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask my noble friend whether this has been carried out very actively?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Yes, I can safely say that any enemy alien who has in his possession a wireless would be very severely dealt with indeed, and it would be a serious offence.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I put it in this way? Are aliens compelled to hand over their wireless sets and are they compelled to report that they have a wireless? I believe that many aliens have not handed over their wireless sets.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: That is the kind of case in which my noble friend can be of such immense value to the police and the Home Office. He says he believes that aliens have not handed over their wireless sets. If he knows of a case and will be good enough to give information about it he will be doing a very valuable service indeed to the Government and the authorities. I can only say that aliens who have in their possession a wireless set render themselves liable to very serious penalties. On May 28 the Aliens Movement Restriction Order was made. That applies to all aliens and requires them to be indoors at their registered address from 10.30 p.m. to 6 a.m. in the country and from 12 midnight to 6 a.m. in London. It also imposes an embargo on the use or possession of motor cars or motor bicycles unless police permission is obtained. That Order applies to all aliens but the police have been
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given instructions to be lenient with regard to exemptions from this Order in the case of French nationals.
A consolidated Order made on June 8 further extended the protected areas so as to include a wide belt of country around the whole of the coast of Great Britain. The new Order provides that Chief Constables may require any alien to remove himself forthwith from the protected area, and this Order differs from the Order previously in force in that while the right to appeal still exists the alien may be required to leave the area pending the hearing of his appeal, instead of as heretofore remaining in it until the appeal is heard. My noble friend asked whether Chief Constables are informed of these Orders. Of course they are. It is the business of the Chief Constable to know the law, and I think practically speaking every Chief Constable receives from the Stationery Office copies of all Acts and Regulations when made. In the case of those of special importance the attention of the Chief Constable is called to them by a circular letter, but in the ordinary course it is the Chief Constable's business to receive copies of all Orders and he does receive them through the Stationery Office.
So far I have been dealing with the cases of aliens of enemy or neutral nationality. Now I come to the case of British subjects. On May 22, the day before my noble friend first raised this subject, an Order was made which authorised the detention of members of organisations subject to foreign influence or control, or organisations the principals of which had associations with or sympathies for the system of government of enemy Powers. The total number of persons, all except a very few of whom are British subjects, who have been arrested under this Order is about 600, and in addition a considerable number of persons have been temporarily detained by the police under another Defence Regulation, 18B, made on the 31st May. This Order enables the police on their own initiative to arrest any person, British or foreign, where they have reasonable ground to suspect that he either has committed or may intend to commit an act prejudicial to the public safety or to the defence of the realm. Greater powers can scarcely be imagined. It is widely believed that cases existed in which the police were anxious to act

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against individuals whom they had reason to suspect of some subversive activities but that their hands were tied by Regulations. They are no longer so tied. The initiative rests with the police. There are other steps which have been taken against possible Fifth Column activities which it would not be in the public interest for me to disclose, but I can assure your Lordships that the competent authorities have continually under review vulnerable points of all kinds, and their protection against damage, whether from without or within. The Civil Service, the local government service and public utilities and corporations are not immune from the closest scrutiny.
There are one or two general considerations which I would venture to put before your Lordships before I leave this subject of Fifth Column activities. One of them is that in times of very grave anxiety like these many people are apt to detect enemy activities everywhere and to become amateur detectives. It is the duty of every citizen in critical times like these—as indeed at any time—to report immediately to the police anything which he observes himself which is suspicious. Concrete information of any kind may be of very great value indeed to the police, and no one has any right to keep to himself any concrete information which may come to his knowledge. On the other hand, to report to the police without having any adequate grounds, that it is commonly believed in such and such a district that so-and-so is up to no good, is not only quite useless, but imposes on the police a great deal of unnecessary work at a time when the strain on them is already very severe. My noble friend referred to what he described as subversive speeches in favour of the enemy which were being made up and down the country. No Defence of the Realm Regulation or any other Regulation is required to deal with that. It is conduct calculated to cause a breach of the peace, and the police have ample powers. It is my noble friend's duty, if he knows of cases of that kind, to report them to the police.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I say that these speeches are made in public places? They are made in public places in Edinburgh, they are made in public places in
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Glasgow, and I have no doubt they are made in towns like Birmingham or anywhere where these Communists assemble. Why should I have to inform the police of things which ought to be within their knowledge?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: If these speeches are made in public places, it is for the police to act.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Why do they not act?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My noble friend, on what seems to me hearsay evidence, is accusing the police of neglecting their duties. I have no reason to believe that they are neglecting their duties.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I am not accusing the police of neglecting their duties. I am accusing the Government who do not instruct the police to take notice of these cases.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The police without neglecting their duties could not neglect these cases. What does my noble friend know about these speeches? He says subversive speeches are made up and down the country. Has he heard any of these speeches?
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I do not go to these meetings to listen to Communists making speeches, but it is common knowledge. The noble Duke has only to make inquiries of the Chief Constable, say, of Edinburgh or Glasgow—I am talking about Scotland, but probably it applies in England as well—to find that such speeches are being made by Communists, in the market place.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I shall make inquiries, but I shall be very surprised to find that such speeches are made. What is common knowledge is not evidence. The practice of amateur detection is an activity which can give the police a great deal of trouble. The amateur detective may not always realise that his activities have aroused the attention of the police, and that his activities have involved them in a very great deal of unnecessary trouble in keeping him under observation, and that he has only escaped arrest himself owing to the trouble they have taken in establishing his bona fides.
There is one other consideration I would put before your Lordships. The

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view has been taken in this debate that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is a man who has been slowly and reluctantly, rather against his will, compelled to adopt the measures necessary for the safety of the realm. If I belonged to the Home Office I could not say what I am going to say, but I do not belong to the Home Office and so I can say it. I would remind your Lordships that the Home Secretary is not a timid, paltering politician, afraid of what his constituents or anyone else may do. He is one of the ablest, most experienced and most resolute administrators this country has ever had the good fortune to employ. He is the man who squashed terrorism in Bengal. Since the war started, he has taken measures which he and his very experienced staff have thought right. I do not think your Lordships need be in the least afraid that the measures they have taken have been insufficient.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I am sorry to interrupt so often, but before the noble Duke goes on, I would like to say that there were two points which I raised in the early part of my speech. One was about the limitations of age from sixteen to seventy being withdrawn, and the second was with regard to certain Defence Regulations. I do not think it is necessary to repeat the whole of what I said, but I asked whether those Regulations as amended had been circulated to all the Chief Constables in the country.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: If the noble Viscount will read the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will find I dealt with both those subjects. I said the age limit had been increased from sixty to seventy, and I said quite clearly that the Chief Constables receive copies of all Regulations.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I am not satisfied with that, because I believe that certain Chief Constables have not received these amended Regulations.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: It may be possible that some Chief Constables prefer grumbling to attending to their correspondence and doing their work. Now I come to the integrity of the staff of the B.B.C. I would remind your Lordships that home broadcasts are only a part of the work of the B.B.C. It has also the extremely important task of broadcasting the news from the British
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point of view to every important country in the world, including those with which we are at war, and also of listening in and making a record for the use of the Government of the broadcasts from every foreign country. In order to do this efficiently, it is, as I think your Lordships will agree, absolutely necessary that it should employ a certain number of foreigners. I think your Lordships will agree that it is of the greatest importance that our foreign broadcasts and propaganda for enemy consumption should be as well done as is humanly possible. If it is to be well done, the B.B.C. must employ people who have not only a perfect command of the language of the country to which they are broadcasting, but also an understanding of the outlook of its people. Therefore, the B.B.C. employs not only foreigners but enemy foreigners on its broadcasting and its monitoring staff. The proportion of aliens of all kinds of the staff is about five per cent., and of German and Austrian nationals the proportion is about one-seventh of the total number of aliens employed.
Those responsible for the B.B.C. are fully alive to the necessity of the absolute integrity of its staff. No circumstance of any kind whatever which may point to a person's unsuitability for employment by the B.B.C. in time of war is ignored. Before the outbreak of war, the credentials of the whole of the staff had been submitted to the appropriate security departments of the Government, and all new appointments which have taken place since the war broke out have been similarly submitted. The closest touch is maintained with the appropriate Government Department, and any doubtful case is at once fully investigated in consultation with the security department. In each of the four or five cases where there has been some doubt about the desirability of the continued employment of a member of the staff, his employment has been terminated in consultation with those departments. In that connection perhaps I might say how much I welcomed the intervention of my noble relative the Marquess of Salisbury on behalf of the Director-General of the B.B.C., Professor Ogilvie. Even so, I do beg your Lordships to take care before making statements of that kind. "B.B.C. Chief Denounced as Pacifist by a Peer"

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makes a headline which may stick for a very long time. In spite of my noble relative's explanation it might still make a headline, and I beg your Lordships to weigh well your words before making accusations of that kind for which there is no shadow or kind of foundation.
The established staff of the B.B.C. consists entirely of British subjects, and in all departments the responsible supervisory staff is also British. The work and conduct of all aliens while on duty are most carefully scrutinised by the staff of the B.B.C. I might add that the recruitment of all foreigners has been carried out in the closest consultation with the Departments concerned, and as a result about thirty candidates who had been provisionally selected for appointment were rejected for reasons connected with security.
I come now to the third point, the taking-over by the Government of the B.B.C. This is a new point on the Order Paper and I have only had short notice of it. I can assure my noble friend that the Government will consider his representations. I am not in a position to say whether they will adopt them or not, but I read yesterday the speech of my right honourable friend the Minister of Information in which he expressed himself as entirely satisfied with the present system and said he had no intention of taking over the B.B.C. For reasons with which I need not detain your Lordships, there are very considerable administrative advantages in having the B.B.C. with a separate identity; but I can assure my noble friend that there is the closest possible liaison between the Minister of Information and the B.B.C.
The procedure is that the B.B.C. are given general guidance from the Ministry and accept without question the Minister's decision on any questions of policy. They welcome direction, whether general or particular, on any matter which the Minister considers to be in the national interest. Guidance is given daily to the B.B.C. by the Director of the Broadcasting Division of the Ministry of Information for home service broadcasts, by the Director of the Foreign Division for overseas broadcasts, and by the Director of the Empire Division for Empire service broadcasts. The Director-General of the B.B.C. attends the bi-weekly meetings on
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policy held by the Minister of Information, and the Director of the Broadcasting Division of the Ministry of Information attends the similar conferences which take place at the B.B.C. The B.B.C. arrange broadcasts of political importance only with the permission of the Minister. The appropriate officials of the B.B.C. attend the daily policy meeting which is held at the Ministry of Information. I think your Lordships will agree that the touch between the two organisations, the Ministry of Information and the B.B.C., could scarcely be more close. We live under fluid conditions, and it may be that events will so develop that the solution advocated by the noble Viscount is thought desirable, but I would draw your Lordships' attention to the speech of the Minister of Information yesterday in which he said that he was entirely satisfied with the position, and that for his part he thought it undesirable that the two organisations should be merged.
6.25 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I have to thank the noble Duke for the reply he has made. I know that this question only came into his hands yesterday morning, and that he has had very little time to prepare a full reply to the questions which have been asked. I wish to thank the noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and have added not only to the interest but also to the importance, if I may say so, of this subject, which is already sufficiently important in itself. There is one way in which aliens are relieved from internment: by the help of influential friends. It has even been said that influential friends vouch for Germans about whom they do not really know very much. The right reverend Prelate in the course of his speech—with which I should have had great sympathy if it had been delivered in other days, but not to-day—seemed to me to take rather an attitude of that kind. In fact—I do not know whether he will acknowledge this or not, but I believe he himself took a great interest in getting released a German who was interned but who after release was found to be an out-and-out supporter of Hitler.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: I have no knowledge of any such person having been brought to this country by my efforts. I have no idea what the noble Viscount means.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Perhaps I am wrong.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: I am sure you are.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: But there have been cases of that kind, and I think we ought to be very careful about them. It is too late now to go through the various points which have been raised, but I was glad to hear my noble friend say that the Home Office were putting the public safety in the forefront of their policy, and further that co-operation between the police and the military was also a part of their policy. I want to read this extract from a letter which I received from a noble Lord yesterday morning from the North of Scotland, to show that this is really an important point. He says in this letter:
"You cannot put it too strongly about Fifth Columnists' activities. Here the military do everything in this prohibited area which is possible for them to do, but their efforts are frustrated by red tape, and the police seem to be afraid of acting with energy for the same reason."
That is a letter from a noble Peer who is concerned with the public safety of that part of the country, and he has not written it without the fullest knowledge.
There is only one other matter to which I wish to refer, and that is my recommendation of the appointment of a Minister of the Crown in direct control of the B.B.C. So far as I am concerned, if the administration of the Corporation is absolutely sound and the employees are known to be absolutely sound as well, I do not wish to press a solution which in ordinary times I should be very much against. I hope, however, that the Government will keep in very close touch with
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that side of the B.B.C. and that they will continually and periodically examine it.
I want to add just one word more, and that is in respect to the matter to which the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, referred. The noble Marquess has told us that he has it direct from Professor Ogilvie that he is not a pacifist. I am very glad to hear this, and I have the greatest pleasure in withdrawing publicly what I said about it. I think, however, that it was not inadvisable to raise the matter, because there has been a great deal of gossip on this point and people have been saying that Professor Ogilvie was a pacifist. We now hear from his own lips that that is not the case, and I am very glad to make a full and ample public apology to him for having made that statement. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BOURNEMOUTH GAS AND WATER BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
SAINT MARY MAGDALENE HOSPITAL (NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

CHRISTCHURCH CORPORATION BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at half past six o'clock.