Sitting of 17 December 1940

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

TRIBUTES TO THE LATE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, before we pass to the business on our Paper I think that we should wish to make some reference to Lord Lothian, whose tragic and untimely death has robbed this country and the Empire of one who had it in his power to give such exceptional service to them. That death came with dramatic suddenness at the very moment that the world was reading the last speech that he made, a speech which to-day we all have the opportunity of reading at its full length, and which I venture to think furnishes a most remarkable example of the depth and quality of Lord Lothian's thought. He passed as a young man naturally into work which brought him into touch with many Imperial problems and developments. That no doubt exercised a great effect on his mind and largely set the direction of his later occupations. No one that I have known seemed to combine better a devotion to great purposes with ability to measure the actual steps that at any given time were practicable to realise them. No one was ever less prone to the temptation of thinking wishfully, or of underrating difficulties. He habitually looked at politics on a large-scale map, and his mind ranged widely over it. His perspective, I think, was seldom at fault, so that he naturally placed any problem to which he addressed himself in its right relation to the whole setting.
I do not know whether your Lordships have read a lecture of his which seems to me as outstanding an example of his thought as any other of his public speeches, a lecture that he delivered at Nottingham some years ago on the Cust Foundation, entitled "Patriotism is not enough, nor pacificism either." It was, I think, a remarkable examination of many of the problems which have constantly engaged the attention of your

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Lordships in this House. For my own part I have read and re-read it and constantly found it stimulating. Your Lordships will of course remember many speeches that he made to us in this House from the Benches opposite, logical, closely reasoned, the argument moving constantly not on what he wished to believe but on what he believed to be true, and never making any confusion between points which were important and points which were subsidiary. It was, I suppose, that quality of refusing to turn his eyes away from difficulties, coupled with a whimsical sense of humour and supported by his great faith in the spiritual realities of life, that sometimes led those who did not understand him, or whose judgment was less widely based, to term him cynical. There could be no judgment more misleading or more false.
Being himself completely natural and wholly devoid of insincerity, he was at ease with all people, and all people were at ease with him. That is equally true of his cosmopolitan relations in the field of politics, using that word in its widest sense, and in his private affairs, the management of his own estates. Whomever he was with and whatever the business, there was no embarrassment at all in finding common ground; and to all his public and semi-public work in South Africa, as confidential adviser to a great Prime Minister in very critical times, to his work for and in India, to the problems of which his mind was particularly attuned and where his loss will be felt as keenly as in any other part of the world, and to his work for the Rhodes Trust, he brought the qualities that made him in private life so shrewd, understanding and invaluable a counsellor. And not the least of these gifts was his capacity to extract from an argument the broad material on which men might be fundamentally agreed, instead of spending their energies on minor disagreement.
It may be that we can now see that all that he had done before was the natural process of leading up to his achievement of the last eighteen months As His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington, he occupied a post for which few could have been better equipped, both by interest and practical experience of men and things, gained over many years. He had an instinctive sense and sureness of touch on all questions that arose, which were
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equally invaluable on both sides of the Atlantic. No one, I think, has ever served this country at Washington more wisely, or more frankly and courageously; nor has any British Ambassador made known with wider sympathy what was the feeling of the American people to his own compatriots here. When he went to America he rightly interpreted his mission as that of showing to the United States in its true light the cause for which the British Commonwealth had again taken up the sword—the cause of human freedom. It was his duty, so he conceived it, to leave the people of that great sister democracy free to make their choice as to the precise nature of the contribution they would make to that cause, once he had proved it to be their own. The work that he has done will remain and will not be undone. It may well be that he has served his country not less in his death than in his life; and if a man is to be accounted fortunate who ends his life on a high level of a task well mastered, certainly we may so think of Philip Lothian.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends I should like to associate myself with the tribute which the Foreign Secretary has paid to one who was the friend of many of us on every side for many years. His death at this moment appears to be a calamity of exceptional magnitude, but it may well be, as the noble Viscount indicated in the closing words of his speech, that the circumstances of his death, the magnitude of the opportunity that was his, and the services that he rendered may themselves as time passes prove to be the most enduring memorial to him. I myself had known him well for many years, and many of us are aware that in the last war his services behind the scenes, with the quiet combination of qualities which the noble Viscount so skilfully sketched for us, were of great value on many occasions. There are few men, I should think, who by strange paths have been able to acquire that combination of personal qualities and experience and long training which fitted him for a great opportunity. His last speech to the American people, in its frankness, its force and its sincerity, from the beginning to the end, expressed his personality and his qualities. The noble Viscount especially, seeing the office that he holds, must know better than any one of us and

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at first hand how great a loss the nation has experienced. But for all that, we pay tribute to his high qualities, to his splendid services; and I for one, and I am sure all of us, feel the certainty that his work will long live after him.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, we on these Benches share the general sense of the House and of the nation in the loss of a great public servant, but many of us who have been for long years in close political association with Lord Lothian and on terms of closest friendship with him feel a deep and especial sorrow at his early and sudden death. He had a mind of first-rate ability, which went strictly to the essence of things and formed clear-cut opinions. Always of independent and often of original views, he sometimes seemed a little impetuous in judgment, but he had that readiness to modify his views in discussion, if it were shown that that was requisite, which is of the essence of political wisdom. His interests ranged widely. He was an omnivorous reader of books, but it was in the political field that he was most at home. He was a convinced Liberal in the widest sense of that term, and understood its full meaning and all its implications. Your Lordships will remember his speeches in this House in earlier years in which he made such valuable contributions to our debates.
He was in Ministerial office for only one year, in the National Government of 1931–32, when he held first the position of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster for a short time and then that of Under-Secretary of State for India, a sphere that attracted him greatly. He was keenly interested in his work at that office, but when the moment came that a division on a great matter of principle led us to withdraw from the Government, without a moment's hesitation he made the sacrifice of the office that he held. He became Chairman of the Commission on the Franchise under the Constitution of India Act, and made intimate acquaintance with all parts of the Indian Empire. I happened to meet him in India when we were both there three years ago, and I heard much at that time of the impression which his personality had made on the Indian people in that land where the personal touch counts for so much. His sympathy, his understanding, his friendly accessibility
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had won him a great reputation there, and if in earlier years the course of events had brought him to the seat of the Viceroy, I believe that affairs might possibly from then have taken a somewhat different turn.
His embassy to the United States gave him a great opportunity at one of the focal points of world affairs, and he was able to render momentous service in forwarding co-operation between the British Empire and the American Union, in a cause which was also the cause of the whole world. When "nation speaks unto nation" much depends upon the voice, the tone, and the words. Lord Lothian was an admirable spokesman, as his speech, published in full to-day, to which reference has already been made, clearly shows. He was able to express in moving terms a powerful statement of fundamental issues. As in the case of Lord Bryce, sometimes and in some countries a man may be the best Ambassador if he has had a political rather than a diplomatic training and background. He is able to make a public appeal, not cramped by diplomatic tradition and restrictions. Although he died in the fulness of his powers, Lord Lothian had behind him a career of many years of successful achievement, especially in the field of the Commonwealth. We had hoped for him even greater opportunities in the future. Now we can only express our grief at his passing and our gratitude for his work.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, I should like to associate those who usually sit on these Benches with the tributes of honour and gratitude which have just been paid to the memory of Lord Lothian. He was one of the speakers in this House whom we were always anxious to hear, and I can remember no occasion when his speech did not throw some new, often some original, light on the problem he was discussing. He was a man of the widest knowledge, interested in all sorts and kinds of learning and affairs. The last conversation I had with him was just before I paid a short visit to India, when he was kind enough to come and speak to me about the Assyrian Churches, a small community of whom most people know nothing, but of whom he, apparently, had

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a. very full knowledge and with whom he had sympathy.
Lord Lothian was both an idealist and a realist. Sometimes a contrast is drawn between the statesman who is an idealist and the statesman who is a realist, but both qualities were to be found in signal degree in Lord Lothian. He was a man of the highest possible ideals, with a vision of a new world order, but at the same time he never disguised from himself or from others the difficulties which stood in the way of the realisation of these ideals, and he was ready to approach their realisation step by step by practical means. Though his passing is to all of us a source of the deepest regret, yet in a very real way he was happy in the hour of his death. He died on the morrow of a speech which has profoundly moved and influenced the people of America. He died at a time when he could feel certain that victory was assured to the country which he had represented so well, and when he had growing confidence that the great sister democracy would give all the help for which he had so eloquently pleaded.
LORD MELCHETT: My Lords, I feel I can hardly allow the present occasion to pass without rising in my place to add a few words to the eloquent tributes that have been paid by the noble Lords who have preceded me. While Lord Halifax and other members of the Government had the benefit of recent opportunities for conference with the late Lord Lothian in this country, I had occasion during the summer and early autumn of the year to see him constantly at work in Washington and to enjoy that warm-hearted hospitality which, to my infinite regret, I shall never be able to repay. Of Lord Lothian's work in America I would only say that ht had not only earned and obtained the affection and respect of his own staff at the Embassy, but he had earned both the respect and confidence of the Administration in Washington, and, thirdly and above all, the confidence, and indeed the admiration, of the people of America. To have achieved so much in peace-time would in itself have been a high testimonial to his abilities far greater than any words of mine can express, but to have achieved it in war-time when, from day to day, every turn of the dramatic course of events was a subject
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of insidious attack on the part of a highly-organised and broadly-founded propaganda weapon, when every slip would have been taken advantage of to foster misunderstanding or to engender suspicion, shows what great qualities and great abilities he had to bring to bear on the task before him.
That success, that respect, that admiration and affection which he had earned were not merely the result of brilliant abilities applied with unflagging zeal. They rested, as the noble Viscount, Lord Halifax, has pointed out, on the wide foundations of his own political philosophy which underlay all the considerations of his approach to the business which he was conducting. He understood, as all too few of our statesmen in the past have understood, the essential necessity of Anglo-American co-operation for the future peace and the future progress of the world. His task, depending as it does so much on those considerations, needed someone of his breadth of view and deep understanding. He understood the great and generous spirit of the American people, and the nobility to which it can attain and to which it has in the past attained; a spirit expressed perhaps more precisely and more eloquently than on any other occasion in the famous words of Abraham Lincoln in his Second Inaugural Address, words which when one reads them again seem so painfully appropriate to the present time:
"Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's 250 years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether'. With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in. …"
That is the true voice of America, a voice that renounces aggression, a voice that vows victory against the tyrant.
Lord Lothian, with his deep appreciation of the American spirit, coupled a true democracy which enabled him not only to understand but to hold in real affection the people of America and that democratic spirit which is the breath of their life. It has been said that it takes an aristocrat really to understand and feel

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the principles of democracy. That statement may be an exaggeration, but if ever it was true it was true of the late Lord Lothian. He realised that American reactions are slow, as indeed our reactions have been slow, and that the distance by which they were removed from that Europe from which all of them or their ancestors had departed—often in conditions of persecution, often as the result of intolerance or the poverty which followed the ravages of war—was bound to have its effect both upon the extent and the speed with which they realised the import of the course of European events. But he also knew that the essential soundness of the spirit of the American people would always in the end enable it to rise to great heights and to make great decisions; not necessarily those decisions which we here might expect, but those which, when viewed in the light of history, would stand out among the mighty acts of the nations of the world.
I know how much it was his cherished hope to play his part, not only in the events that still lie before us until victory has been consummated, but in those postwar years in which we must hope that the two great English-speaking democracies will be drawn together more closely than ever before to achieve that peace and that progress which we all need. Lord Lothian in his last public utterance placed the issues fairly before the American people. He has been deprived of further opportunity to contribute to that work which he had so deeply at heart, but if we can dedicate ourselves here to-day in this House to the great task which he would have had us undertake, put aside all small and insular prejudices and open our minds and our hearts in our generation to the immense possibilities which that co operation holds out, I feel that then indeed he will neither have lived nor have died in vain. His name will go down to history among those great British statesmen whose vision and whose actions have illuminated the path for the people to follow.

DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES (EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to extend to certain other persons the immunities and privileges
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accorded to Envoys of Foreign Powers accredited to His Majesty, and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read Ia
(Viscount Halifax.)
On Question, Bill read I, and to be printed.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:
URBAN DISTRICT OF ASHFORD ORDER
RURAL DISTRICT OF EAST ELLOE (PARISH OF SUTTON BRIDGE) ORDER.
COUNTY OF THE CITY OF WORCESTER ORDER.
URBAN DISTRICT OF SLEAFORD (PARISH OF OLD SLEAFORD) ORDER.
URBAN DISTRICT OF ROYSTON ORDER.
URBAN DISTRICT OF MABLE-THORPE AND SUTTON ORDER.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on Tuesday last, be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on Tuesday last, be approved.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill which, as your Lordships know, is an annual Bill that must receive the Royal Assent by the end of this month. It extends the duration of various temporary Acts for another year for one reason or another

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until they can be dealt with in a more permanent fashion than is at present possible. When I call your Lordships' attention to the fact that the Bill is the same word for word which your Lordships approved and passed last year I do not think you will desire any further explanation from me.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived

LOCAL ELECTIONS AND REGISTER OF ELECTORS (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, the purpose of this Bill is to continue until the end of next year the provisions of the Local Elections and Register of Electors (Temporary Provisions) Act of last year, with certain minor additions and Amendments. The Act of last year suspended local elections, and provided for the elections by councils to any casual vacancy that might occur. It also imposed a prohibition on alterations of the area or the constitution of local authorities, and suspended steps towards the preparations of the register of electors and juror's book. It was stated last year with, I think, general agreement that it was the intention of the Government to continue the suspension of normal electoral activity with regard to local government affairs until the war should be over, and that it was desirable to proceed by stages so that Parliament might keep the whole subject under the closest review. For this reason it was decided to advance the period of suspension from time to time by further legislation. Accordingly the present Bill is now brought in and I have no doubt that your Lordships will think it as necessary as the Bill of last year. Indeed the same reasons which made it desirable to suspend local government elections last year operate even more to-day. The life of Parliament, as your Lordships are aware, has also been prolonged.
Apart from certain small Amendments embodied in the Schedule to the Bill which were found to be desirable as a result of the experience gained in the
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working of it, the present Bill possesses two new features. Firstly, it is extended to cover the suspension of Scottish county and district council elections. Neither of these fell to take place in 1939, and therefore could not be included in last year's measure. Secondly, the Bill contains a provision safeguarding the superannuation rights of certain contributory employees, part of whose remuneration is normally derived from work on the register of electors or the juror's book. I do not think I need go into details of that provision which is designed to save from hardship certain officials whose remuneration and consequent superannuation rates would be affected by the suspension of work on the rolls of electors. With that brief explanation, I hope your Lordships will see fit to give the Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

NAVAL AND MARINE FORCES (TEMPORARY RELEASE FROM SERVICE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORDTEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. The purpose of this small Bill is to improve the machinery in the hands of the Admiralty so as to give it the powers already possessed by the War Office and Air Ministry to demobilise subject to recall to active service. At present the Admiralty can only demobilise men who belong to the statutory reserve forces and pensioners who have been temporarily recalled to service. Men serving under normal engagements or called up under the National Service (Armed Forces) Act can only be released by complete discharge without liability to recall. In practice what has really happened is that men have been discharged if required in civilian life for other forms of national service, or have been granted unpaid leave if they are only required for relatively short periods on specific jobs, such as harvesting work and so forth. If this Bill becomes law, the Admiralty will be able to grant temporary release to men required for other forms of national

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service, such as skilled work on armaments. The machinery of the Bill is very simple. The first two subsections of Clause I are self-explanatory. Subsection (3) of Clause I gives power to apprehend men who fail to rejoin. Clause 2 (3) is drafted so as to regularise the position of men already released by executive act. I hope I have given all the explanation necessary to your Lordships and I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Templermore.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

RAILWAYS AGREEMENT (POWERS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD MOYNE): My Lords, this Bill is necessary to enable the Government to settle agreements with the four major groups of railways and with the London Passenger Transport Board. Control was assumed on the outbreak of war and has involved far-reaching agreements between the Government and the companies and between the four amalgamated companies and the London Passenger Transport Board. Command Paper No. 6168, which was presented last February, gave a broad outline of the system which was in operation under the Railway Control Order of 1939. It provided, among other matters, for the pooling of receipts and for the sharing of the pool between the companies and the London Passenger Transport Board up to the total of their guaranteed revenues. Beyond that figure the first slice of the balance would be shared fifty-fifty with the Exchequer and if the pool exceeded the estimated standard revenue under the Railways Act, 1921, the whole surplus would accrue to the Exchequer. These matters would probably have been brought before the House in a Bill defining all the details, but modifications in the arrangement with the parties concerned, due to the introduction of the War Damages Bill, make it impossible to make provision at this stage by Act of Parliament for all the details which will require legislative sanction.
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This Bill therefore proceeds by authorising the Minister of Transport by Order to confer the necessary powers on the companies concerned to make agreements, and Clause 1 (4) provides that every Order so made shall be laid before Parliament with power to either House to annul it within forty days. I beg to more.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Moyne.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

ENEMY OVERTURES.
LORDNOEL-BUXTON rose LORDNOEL-BUXTON rose to ask His Majesty's Government if they will make a statement as to any suggestions, purporting to be aimed at terms of peace, which have been made to His Majesty's Government by the German Government since the entry of Italy into the war, and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to keep the public informed when such suggestions are made; and to move for Papers.
THE noble Lord said: My Lords, I am submitting this Motion because of the importance attached by the public to the statement of the noble Viscount the Foreign Secretary on November 5, when he expressed the hope that France would not follow a course which would be a stab in the back of her former Ally, and said:
"We, on our side, have repeatedly rejected all suggestions from the enemy for an agreement with us at the expense of France."
Great interest was aroused by those words. For instance, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, who has great experience of affairs, wrote in The Times:
"I should have thought that these overtures ought to have been circumstantiated and given a world-wide publicity, especially in France."
We have since learnt from His Majesty's Government what the noble Viscount referred to by his words. This was when the noble Lord, Lord Newton, raised in your Lordships' House on November 20, when speaking with regard to propaganda, the importance of issuing the statement for propaganda purposes. The interest aroused shows the public desire to be informed if and when overtures are made, and the noble Lord, Lord Ran-keillour, after the Government spokesman

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had made his statement, asked why further information could not be given as to when overtures were made. He also proposed that there should be a White Paper on the subject.
The point that I wish to make is similar to that made by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour. I should apply the principle that they advocated to the future. If an approach comes to be made by the enemy the fact, I suggest, should not be concealed from the public without special reason. One very strong reason for that is that public confidence in the Government would be confirmed. The delicacy of the question is obvious to all of us, and I do not suggest that details ought to become public property, but if approaches are made the broad fact of such approaches ought to be made known by the Government. There may, of course, be unofficial communications which cannot be published. An illustration of that fact may be found in what happened in 1917; the interview between General Smuts and Count Mensdorff is a case in point. There had been no definite approaches by Germany or by Austria, and obviously the public could not be informed. The memorandum of General Smuts upon those talks at Geneva shows that Count Mensdorff would probably not have agreed to meet a representative of the British Government except: on the condition of secrecy.
The noble Viscount, however, seemed to allude' the other day to definite approaches. We have, as I have said, learnt from the Government what he meant, but his statement aroused very great interest, and it also occasioned surprise, because any serious offer from the German side would seem at the moment to be unlikely. Hitler knows that if it is a free hand to dominate Europe for which he is asking, as the Government spokesman said the other day, he would not be listened to for a moment. The real situation, of course, is not known to the public. Serious overtures may, for all we know, be made in the not distant future, and, if any serious offer is made, the knowledge of it would be of encouragement to the public, and would be on a par with the other grounds for encouragement given out from time to time by the Government. Recent speeches have shown that on the German side the desire for peace
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may become very urgent; for instance, the Minister of Economic Warfare dealt in a speech the other day with the extreme difficulty which is in sight for Germany in respect of the shortage of war materials. That sort of thing gives encouragement to the public, and I think that it would be more or less on a par with statements of that kind if the broad fact of approaches being made, when they are made, was made known. Public interest was also aroused by the words "agreement at the expense of France," and people asked what would be the nature of that "expense." They asked what sacrifices might be in view; they speculated whether it referred to Alsace or to Lorraine or to both, or whether it referred to the French Colonial Empire.
I think that we should draw a distinction between announcing serious approaches when the occasion is appropriate and detailed proposals. Details, of course, must be secret. Moreover, the Foreign Secretary ought to feel that the public trust him and do not expect information about the details, all the more because of his constant insistence that the essential of any settlement must be durability. He ought to be free to seize an opportunity by which, in his judgment, durability might be secured. I do urge, however, that the public would be uneasy if there were a feeling that they might be kept in the dark on the broad fact of a serious approach. By giving the appropriate information the Government would, I urge, ensure the support of public opinion. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, before a reply is given to this question, which is a Foreign Office one, I would like to say this. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Snell is going to reply for the Government, but, without any sort of reflection on his great abilities and on the high position which he holds in public life, I think that the Foreign Secretary might have been here. We are rising shortly, I understand, for quite a considerable recess, and we do not now meet very often or for very long hours. My noble friend who has just spoken has great knowledge on these matters; he has been known for many years as a student of foreign affairs of distinction, and I think that he deserves the presence of the Foreign Secretary.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, speaking on this matter purely as a private person, with no Government information whatever, as far as I am concerned I should like to say that I do not associate myself in the least with any criticism of the fact that the Foreign Secretary is not here and that my noble friend Lord Snell will reply for the Government. I should have thought that that was a reasonable course to take, having regard to all the occupations of the Foreign Secretary, and I can conceive of no one who is better fitted to state the views of the Government than the noble Lord, Lord Snell.
With regard to the subject of this Motion, speaking again as a private person and as one who is not in the same situation as those who speak for the Government, I wish to say with all the force at my command that I hope that the Government will not accede to the desire of the noble Lord who has moved this Motion. For my part, I cannot conceive of anything more unfortunate than that the Government should be pledged to say that there have been some offers made, almost certainly through indirect sources, in the nature of a suggestion of an armistice or a peace. I think that the Government, in particular with the present Prime Minister at their head, are well fitted to decide for themselves whether a matter of that sort should be made known to the public at the particular time and in the circumstances in which any such offer or approach might happen to be made. I have, in a very small way, a very large experience on the subject of negotiation; and this much I do know, that when you are negotiating you ought not to be subjected to all sorts of suggestions or objections or advice from irresponsible people who are not acquainted with the facts.
I do not think that the Prime Minister should be subjected to this, that as soon as some offer, which may or may not be serious, is made to the Government, he will be bound to let it be known throughout the Press that such an approach has been made. How it will be possible, having gone so far as that, to be silent on the question of the nature of the offer and through whom it had been made, I do not know; I cannot imagine the people and the Press of this country being content with the statement that such offers
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were being made without pressing for something more. I am guided in that view partly by the fact that the newspapers are always full of letters from well-meaning, intelligent and reasonable people expressing their views on what our aims should be in this war. The curious thing is that as soon as one able and intelligent gentleman writes to The Times or elsewhere stating what our aims should be, another equally able and intelligent gentleman writes next day and says that the first writer has missed the point, and that our aims should be something quite different. I could tell your Lordships of six different war aims that have been advertised in the Press during the last few weeks. For my part I think that all these discussions are idle and useless, and for this simple reason, that we do not know yet what the conditions will be at the moment when we have to discuss the terms of peace; we do not even know what people will be our Allies and what people will be our enemies at that date.
I do not want to mention the names of countries, but I can easily conceive some countries which will be fighting on our side as our Allies who themselves will necessarily have a voice in the sort of peace that we are to insist upon; and at the same time there are people in a very ambiguous position at the present time who may have openly entered the war as our enemies. That will very greatly affect the terms of peace which we shall then have to insist upon, and anything beyond the general statements that have already been given by His Majesty's Government would, I think, be perfectly useless. If that is so, I think it almost follows, at any rate it is the opinion that I press upon His Majesty's Government, that a pledge to tell the people of England what sort of terms may be at that moment under discussion would be most unwise and most deleterious to the true interests of the country, which are involved in the best peace being obtained that it is possible for the Government to obtain at such time as peace can be reasonably considered.
LORDBALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I should like to support what has just fallen from the noble and learned Viscount on the Cross Benches. I think it is very important that expressions of opinion in the same sense should come

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from this side of the House. I should only like to say—and I am certain that I am expressing the view of the vast majority of your Lordships—that if the Foreign Secretary is not in his place it is because he cannot be for urgent reasons of State. I also have complete confidence in the ability of the Deputy Leader of the House adequately to represent him, and I think it is most unfortunate that any suggestion should be made that the Deputy Leader is not competent to reply to this question. As to our peace aims, I also feel confident that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are capable of deciding when the right moment is to make an announcement. Many people do want an announcement to be made. The difficulty is to make any announcement other than in general terms, which has already been done. There again I think I am not only speaking for many noble Lords in this House but for the overwhelming majority of the people in this country, who are prepared to trust the judgment of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, my noble friend the Leader of the House asked me to apologise to your Lordships for his not being here to answer the question of my noble friend Lord. As your Lordships are aware, the duties of the Foreign Secretary require his attendance very frequently at short notice on quite imperative business, and Lord Halifax was sorry that he was not able to remain. My noble friend Lord Strabolgi must remember that the only reason why I am on this side of the House rather than on the other was that I might on such occasions try to help my noble friend the Leader of the House. But there is indeed very little to be said either by the Foreign Secretary or myself in reply to the question which the noble Lord put upon the Paper.
As my noble friend the late Lord Tryon, then Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Pensions, stated on November 20, German suggestions that they would be happy to maintain good relations with Great Britain, provided they were left a free hand in Europe, have been repeatedly made during recent years. His Majesty's Government, however, have never been prepared to discuss any such arrangement with the German
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Government, since it could only be at the expense of our former French Ally and of the other free countries of Europe, including our present Allies. The more serious suggestions to this effect from the German side were naturally made before the outbreak of war and therefore before the entry of Italy into the war, and although there have been from time to time certain indications that the German Government might be prepared to renew these suggestions, these indications have not been of a sufficiently authoritative character to justify any statement by His Majesty's Government. I am glad, however, to have this opportunity to repeat that His Majesty's Government could never accept any arrangement which would have the effect of perpetuating German domination in Europe, and that they are resolutely determined to do all in their power to deliver the nations now under the heel of Germany from that yoke, and to restore to them their former independence and prosperity.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

COLONIAL ECONOMIC POLICY.
LORD FARINGDON LORD FARINGDON had given Notice that he would draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the situation of the British and Allied Colonial possessions and to the need for co-ordination of economic policy between them; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the subject of the Motion which I have on the paper to-day is one on which it would be possible to speak at great length. If therefore I speak as briefly as possible your Lordships will understand that it is not from any lack of appreciation of the magnitude of the subject. The reason for putting down this Motion was not in order to inflict upon your Lordships my own views on the subject, but rather to elicit from the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies a statement of policy. Various questions have been put on this subject in another place, and the replies received have generally been felt to be at least inconclusive, certainly by no means so full as I am hoping to receive to-day from the noble Lord the Secretary of State. I should also like to express my gratitude

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to the noble Lord for his presence here to-day, as I understand that it is at the cost of some personal inconvenience to himself.
I think that this question of the Colonies can be roughly divided into two aspects—what I may call the external and the internal aspects. Of course your Lordships will understand that these are inter-related and react upon one another. Before the war, and for many years before the war, our Colonial policy had come in for repeated criticism—criticism which had led to the appointment of Commissions, and to the outbreak on various occasions of violence and disturbances, and which culminated in the appointment of the Moyne Commission, whose Report was received only a comparatively short time ago, and has, in fact, not been published, though the recommendations have been to a large extent accepted by His Majesty's Government. The general complaint was that there was in the Colonies too little research, too little planning, and too little assistance. At the beginning of this war the Colonial Marketing Board was suspended, inevitably, and its place was taken by an enlarged Economic Department at the Colonial Office. Quota schemes broke down, equally inevitably, and they were replaced by bulk purchases and by control which aimed at obtaining for ourselves the raw materials which we needed and at the same time preventing vital supplies from reaching our enemies.
Though war has brought prosperity to certain Colonies whose production is required for the war effort, this prosperity, it seems to me, serves only to point the moral and to accentuate the fundamental ill-balance of the economies of most of the Colonies. This ill-balance is due, most of your Lordships will agree, in nearly every case to an excessive preoccupation with the production of one article for export. The results have been inevitably, in time of depression, disastrous for the Colonies, for it is of course well known that the heaviest weight of all depressions falls upon primary producers. Primary producers of the Colonies having in their own countries no alternative production, no resources from which they are able to support themselves, have suffered appallingly in every successive period of depression. The importance of the
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foundation of local industry and the importance of husbandry and of schemes for land settlement have been stressed year after year, decade after decade, by successively appointed Commissions. Now it does seem at last as if the stress of war is going to force the adoption of the policies which have been so frequently urged. But it is not only for the Minister here to urge upon Colonial Governments to carry out these policies, because one of the most unfortunate features of the fiscal policies of all Colonies is their excessive dependence for revenue on tariffs which, at the present time, must inevitably be dwindling and which, probably, will dwindle considerably more.
At this time, too, in order that a reorientation of the economic life of the Colonies may be set on foot, considerable expenditure will be inevitable. It is therefore certain that assistance must be given by this country to the Colonies, towards whose peoples we have the deepest responsibility. I venture to mention the conditions in one or two of the Colonies as examples of what I mean. Jamaica is in what I can only describe as a parlous situation. During the first six months of this year the visible unfavourable balance of imports over exports rose by £1,100,000, and your Lordships will appreciate the seriousness of this situation when I add that the total exports of Jamaica used in the past to be in the neighbourhood of only £5,000,000. Far too large a proportion of the imports into this Colony consists of foodstuffs, and I submit that this is a Colony which could, and should, be made from that point of view entirely self-supporting. I believe that the first and foremost step in this Colony, as in so many others, is a policy of land settlement and a policy aiming at encouraging the people to grow their food for themselves. The dangerous emphasis on production for export is curiously shown in the case of British Guiana, whence complaints are received that, though rice is exported from that Colony, there is in the Colony itself insufficient for the people to eat.
The dependence of the West African Colonies upon the cocoa crop is well known. In this case that dependence is upon a crop which, already before the war, showed signs, and more than signs, of over-production. In this case His I Majesty's Government have come to the

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rescue of the Colonies by buying the whole of the cocoa crop; but though this is a generous and wise move, it has unfortunately not brought to the growers of the cocoa themselves the benefits which might have been expected because, although the shippers and the various interests who come between the exporters and the growers of the cocoa have, under the award, been guaranteed their profits, owing to the rise in the price of imports the growers find themselves receiving a fixed unprofitable price. The consequent discontent, your Lordships will agree, is easily comprehensible. Incidentally, I should like in passing to ask the noble Lord, as a matter of information, whether Newfoundland, which used to be a Dominion, comes within his orbit.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR the COLONIES (LORD LLOYD): No.
LORDFARINGDON: The noble Lord says it does not, therefore I will not go on to point out that there the problem is exactly the same—the problem of overemphasis on one product for export. I am not going to suggest that to reorientate the economic life of the Colonies is a simple matter. It obviously is not. There are many difficulties which the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, will no doubt have to point out to us. One of the difficulties is that in order to process the products of these Colonies and build up local industry, it is necessary to obtain machinery which in many cases can only be obtained from the United States of America or from other countries outside the sterling group. I suggest to His Majesty's Government that this is a case where, perhaps, certain dollar credits might be put at the disposal of the Colonies. It should also be clearly realised that there are many interests both here and in the Colonies which are by no means interested in the building up of a self-supporting economy—interests which in many cases are not only not interested, but definitely inimical. But taking a long view, it is, I believe, really for the benefit of everyone, even of the shippers and exporters in this country, that the standard of living in the Colonies should be raised, for by raising that standard of living the consuming power of the Colonies would be increased and our own producers would benefit.
I come now to the other aspect of this problem, what I have called the external
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aspect. Many of us have thought that the most inspired and the most inspiring gesture which this country has produced was the Prime Minister's offer of common citizenship with the people of France. A somewhat similar position in Colonial affairs is held by the conversations which took place between Mr. MacDonald and M. Mandel on co-operation between the French and British Colonies. The collapse of France has removed a large part of the French Empire from the sphere of those conversations, but there remains the very large area which has joined the Forces of Free France. There are also the Belgian and Dutch Colonies which are contiguous to British Colonies, and which together form an extremely impressive bloc whose problems are similar and in which it is reasonable to assume that schemes envisaged by these conversations may presumably be carried out, and, indeed, I trust not only carried out but developed. The combined Colonial territories of this country and our Allies constitute a colossal bloc, and neighbouring Colonies under different flags having the same problem, not only economic but also administrative, would undoubtedly benefit enormously by the closest possible relations, leading to an exchange of experience and active co-operation.
There is, too, I suggest, a propaganda point which should not be missed here, for such a policy would emphasize the immense bulk and the prodigious resources of those territories which stand behind us in our struggle. Moreover, such a policy would adumbrate a postwar international Colonial policy which could and should, which in fact inevitably must, form part of the new world order of which the right reverend Prelate spoke only a few minutes ago in this House—a new world order for which we are all waiting and to which everyone is aspiring. As such it would, I submit, be an encouragement to our own people and a weapon against our enemies. To this end I would urge the formation here in London of an Inter-Colonial Council on which the representatives of the four Empires, Dutch, French, British and Belgian, would have seats, and on which I suggest the Portuguese should also be offered places. Such a council would have expert advisers and would deal not only with economic problems but also with all the administrative, health, and other problems which affect the Colonies equally. It

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could arrange for mutual assistance, pooling schemes, commercial concessions and deal with currency and marketing problems. It could, in fact, develop an international Colonial policy. I believe that such a body would be a guarantee to the world in general of the kind of world that we intend to build after this war, and would be of colossal importance and have great repercussions throughout the world.
In conclusion I would like to summarise the points on which I am asking for information from the noble Lord in the form of a few questions. I would like to ask the noble Lord what steps are being taken to maintain the economic life of the Colonial territories and the standard of living of their peoples, to encourage new industries, food production and self-sufficiency, to find markets for exportable surpluses: if he will state what progress has been made in inter-colonial economic arrangements within the Empire in establishing consultation and collaboration between contiguous British and Allied territories; and, finally, if he can inform us of the possibilities of collaboration between the Governments of the respective Empires on economic, social and political policies. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, may I intervene for one moment to say on behalf of my political friends what great importance we attach to this question? I am quite sure that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lloyd) is not behind us in appreciating it. It provides for him, I suggest with great respect, an unexampled opportunity. I have a lively recollection how kindred topics were discussed in the Ministry of Reconstruction before the end of the last war, and I also have a lively recollection of some very excellent proposals that were formulated affecting the development of Colonics which were, and still are, largely dependent upon a single product for their economy. I have, too, a very painful recollection of how a very large number of these excellent proposals (worked out by men who knew the problems involved at first hand) were consigned to some pigeon-hole or other, in which, so far as I know, they have continued to reside. That is the kind of opportunity which is open, if I may say so with great respect, to the noble Lord to make use of now.
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This is a vast topic and one of the greatest importance, as he knows, and I entertain the hope and belief that he is big enough to see the opportunity and to seize it. May I, however, make two pleas in connection with it? The first is that in the arrangements which are made by the Government in the different economies and the large-scale purchases which are made, they will ensure the prices not only of the intermediary but of the primary producer. The purchasing power of the natives in these territories depends, of course, upon that, and the possibility of increasing the markets there depends upon the purchasing power of the Colonies in the long run. In the second place I would emphasize to my noble friend the importance of the necessity for promoting a better form of co-operation between the different Colonies affected and between the different nations. We seem to be now elaborating a sort of glorified form of barter and applying it to international agreements which are taking the place of the old bills of exchange method. It should be possible, I think, with respect to these different Colonial territories, to widen that scheme to the advantage of all concerned. At any rate I express the hope that the noble Lord, who, I am sure, appreciates the first-rate importance of this subject, will seize the opportunity which is presented to him.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord who has just sat down for what he has said. I can assure him that no one can sit in my chair at the Colonial Office for even a few weeks without being deeply imbued with the enormous responsibility as well as the opportunity that lies in his hand in respect of the development of the Colonial Empire, an opportunity which of course, is to a certain extent limited by the impact of war but which I like to think is by no means entirely limited. I do hope that there may be found scope for advance even in the war period. I should like to say, too, that I think your Lordships are very much indebted to the noble Lord who has just sat down for an extremely interesting speech which, if he will allow me to say so, combined knowledge with brevity, which is always valuable. I am very grateful to him for the opportunity he has given me of letting your Lordships' House know something of the co-operation which the Colonial Office is giving to

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the Colonies of our Allies, our main relations with whom are of course primarily the responsibility of my noble friend the Foreign Secretary.
The war has deepened inevitably and happily the co-operation which had already begun before the war with many of the countries concerned and has opened up many new ways in which that cooperation can be expressed. I will say at once that it is certainly my hope that the co-operation which has been begun and is being deepened will be continued, as the noble Lord suggested, after the war, at a time when, we hope, all the Colonial Governments and areas will be able to continue their development without daily fear of aggression from Nazis over the border. Our co-operation with the Belgian and the Free French Colonies has been rather different in degree and kind from our co-operation with the Netherlands Empire. The French and the Belgian Colonies, as I am sure your Lordships know, have always been much more directly dependent upon the Mother Country than the Netherlands Empire. We have therefore had to give to the French and the Belgians much more direct and definite support. Economic agreements have just been negotiated with the Free French Colonies in Africa and with the Belgian Congo, and those agreements are ripe now for signature. The Belgian Colonial Minister himself has just gone to the Belgian Congo to discuss the draft agreement in final form with the Governor-General. My Department, the Colonial Office, has given valuable expert assistance in drawing up these agreements. We have also organised inside the Department a French Colonial Intelligence Section to continue the liaison arrangements with the French Colonial Empire which had already been brought into operation by M. Mandel before the collapse of France.
I do not think your Lordships will want me to go into detail on the economic arrangements which are proposed with the Free French and Belgian Colonies—although I could do so if your Lordships wished—but I may say that they are intended broadly to give general effect to the Government's pledge to maintain the economic structure of the countries in question by purchasing as much of their produce as we can, and by providing in return such imports as are necessary for
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the economic life of the country. That goes without saying. The relations between ourselves and the Dutch are of a rather different character. The Dutch East Indies obviously form a very large and powerful unit, which, as I have said, was never very dependent on the Mother Country and operated in very large measure on its own account. Therefore it has been able during the war, both for that reason and by virtue of geographical position, to maintain its ordinary life pretty well unimpaired. The Dutch East Indies are exporters of enormously important products, as we all know. They export, I think, something like a million tons of sugar and they have very large exports of mineral oil, tin, rubber, quinine and so on. In a fairly small area they have a population of no less than 60,000,000 people, so that they may be called a very powerful, important self-contained unit.
The common problem of marketing these products had been a matter of close international co-operation before the war. Everybody remembers, no doubt, the international tin, rubber, tea and sugar schemes. These schemes have all, I think, been kept going since the outbreak of war and British and Dutch co-operation in these and kindred matters has grown very close as a result of war-time development. We have got special problems in common, such as schemes for the disposal of oil seed which formerly found a market in Europe, and problems also in regard to sisal and other fibres. Detailed discussions have quite recently been taking place about a scheme for international control of the marketing of sisal. Then we have got other co-operation because we have Malaya close by, and there are substantial common interests between Malaya and the Dutch East Indies, mainly, or very largely, in that case in exchange control. We have problems which are common both to the Dutch East Indies and Malaya arising from our sales of goods to dollar countries. We have common problems, too, in the control of goods of war value so that they shall not reach our enemies. I would like to assure the noble Lord that on all these matters, which are of very wide range, there have not only been frequent mutual discussions in this country, but Sir Shenton Thomas, the Governor of the Straits Settlements, has been authorised to undertake direct discussion with the

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Netherlands East Indies authorities. I do not think that in these areas we can really do very much more than we are doing. His Majesty's Government and the Netherlands Government have been so impressed with the importance of maintaining full liaison and exchange of information that they have recently set up regular machinery to ensure that liaison in the form of a Joint Anglo-Netherlands Committee on Economic Matters which is going to meet frequently for a free exchange of information and ideas.
I have already said that I hope all this war-time co-operation will be carried on after the war into a post-war world, but obviously—I am sure your Lordships will agree—it would be a mistake at present to try and define too closely either the scope or the specific objectives of such post-war co-operation. I do not think it would be wise, even if it were possible, and I do not think it actually is possible to-day. I would remind your Lordships, too, that many of the problems that affect the Colonies, British and Allied, concern to an equal extent, of course, a large number of other countries which are not Colonies at all. It is useless, for instance, to try to plan a cocoa future for the Colonies unless we take into consideration the interests of Brazil, and many other interests similarly concerned with coffee, cocoa and so on. That is equally true of sugar. Sugar affects almost every country in the world, including now, of course, the United Kingdom, and therefore it is very far from being a Colonial problem alone. I think it would be misleading if I left your Lordships under the impression that the Colonies can solve their economic problems simply by co-operating with one another; and I recognise from the noble Lord's speech that that is the last thing that is in his mind. They cannot do so; the economic problems with which they have to deal are part and parcel of world economic problems, and cannot possibly be dealt with in isolation, or anything like it. Nevertheless, the machinery of wartime co-operation which is being developed is, I think, going to be of very great help and must be maintained and kept together, so that we can build up from it after the war something in the nature of a more comprehensive organisation of co-operative activity in the Colonial and international spheres. The fact that
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we do recognise the importance of that will, I am sure, please my noble friend.
My noble friend has drawn attention to one of the most important economic problems confronting all the Allied Colonial Empires, and for that matter all the countries of the world—namely, the problem of maintaining in war conditions the essential supplies of the Colonies and their standard of living. I do not know whether, at this rather hungry hour, it would weary your Lordships too much if I ran rapidly through the economic position of these areas which are under the authority of the Colonial Office. If it is not detaining your Lordships, I think that it may be of some interest.
LORD STRABOLGI: It is very important.
LORD LLOYD: I have a short note on the subject and, if your Lordships will forgive me, I will give some details from it. First of all, take West Africa. West Africa has lost a market for from 100,000 to 200,000 tons of its cocoa. The difference between 100,000 and 200,000 tons seems rather a large margin, but we do not know exactly how much of the loss may fall on other suppliers, so that we cannot get a very close estimate. This, however, has been made good by the Government here buying the whole crop. The price paid is lower than last year's price, but is about the same as that of the year before. It is very difficult to say how much the cost of imports has gone up in West Africa, but I should think that the figure is about 30 per cent. This means that the people in West Africa will have to do without a certain amount of the things which are half-way between necessities and luxuries, but we hope that they will not be in any serious discomfort compared with the rest of the world.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: Does the noble Lord refer to the Gold Coast as well as to Nigeria?
LORD LLOYD: Yes, to West Africa as a whole, in general terms; 30 per cent., of course, is a very general figure. Apart from the difficulty about cocoa, Nigeria and Sierra Leone are also in difficulties with regard to palm kernels. Before the war they exported rather over 400,000 tons of palm kernels. Much of this went to the Continent, and the market is therefore lost, as we all know. Purchases for

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this country, however, have increased, and we are buying something like 250,000 to 300,000 tons a year. The exports from West Africa have been brought down to that figure, to avoid an overplus, by prohibiting exports from certain areas in Nigeria which have other goods, such as cocoa, to sell. In these areas the discomfort will, of course, be somewhat increased, but we think that it will not be serious, while the areas which are wholly dependent on oil palms will be able to export all that they can produce. The picture in West Africa, therefore, is not entirely unsatisfactory, although it is not very good. In East Africa the principal uncertainty concerns coffee, some of it produced by Europeans but rather more (of the particular coffee in "question) by Africans. It is not very easy to say exactly what is going to happen about this, but the Europeans in Kenya, with their customary patriotism, are, for the most part, serving in the Army and some of them, therefore, will have a rather more certain source of income than they enjoyed even perhaps when they were growing coffee. We may have to buy and store some of their coffee and some of the native coffee.
Of the Eastern Colonies, Mauritius with its sugar is in a fairly favourable position. Seychelles has lost most of its copra market, but this not a big matter. Ceylon has lost a small copra market, but is doing so well with tea, rubber, plumbago and other miscellaneous stuff that, although individuals may suffer, the country as a whole is not going to be in any major difficulty at all. Malaya, although it has lost some part of its market for copra, is aboundingly prosperous with its rubber and tin. Hong Kong has lost no market, because it does not produce anything of significance, and it is doing fairly well with the general entrepot trade, shipbuilding and so on.
Coming to the Mediterranean, Gibraltar and Malta, in a state of semi-siege, are in the state of comfort or discomfort that such a condition implies, but it does not arise from the loss of markets, because they are not, generally speaking, exporters. Cyprus has many difficulties with regard to pyrites, citrus fruits, wines, raisins and tobacco, and we shall have to give Cyprus certain help, help which I am sure your Lordships will agree has been richly earned by the splendid
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patriotic action which Cyprus has taken and the way she has recruited. The difficulties arise in Cyprus not so much, of course, from the loss of markets as from the closure of the Mediterranean and the consequent inability to ship; but that, thanks to the breakdown in Signor Mussolini's arrangements, is an improving situation at the present time. Palestine, over 70 per cent of whose exports are citrus, is, I am afraid, in serious difficulties for the same reason—lack of shipping.
Lastly, taking the West Indies and the Western Pacific, the sugar colonies of the West Indies are quite comfortable Trinidad is doing well with its oil and British Guiana with its bauxite. The tourist business in the Bahamas, Bermuda and Jamaica, has been interrupted a little, but I am surprised to learn from the Department that it has not been hit too badly; I suppose that there is still a good deal of American trade. Jamaica has lost, unfortunately, most of its banana exports, at any rate for the time being; but, as I think the noble Lord knows, we are paying for agreed quantities of bananas which cannot be shipped, and so this difficulty will be avoided up to a certain point. In the Western Pacific, Fiji, like all sugar colonies, is in a satisfactory position with regard to its sugar, as are the Gilbert and Ellice Islands with their phosphates; but parts of Fiji and of the Gilbert and Ellice islands, and the Solomon Islands and Tonga, are entirely dependent on copra, and very little of this will be saleable. I am afraid that we shall have to subsidise these islands to make up for the loss of that market; but, though we shall really have to supply most of their income, that income is so small that the total sum involved is not very significant.
To sum up, the really black spots are West African cocoa and palm products, Pacific copra, Jamaica bananas and the Palestine and Cyprus citrus produce, and perhaps, to a certain extent. East African coffee. In all these cases we have already found, or are finding, financial means of saving the Colonies from grave suffering. On the import side it is quite true, as I have said, that prices have gone up. My West African figure of 30 per cent. and upwards is probably not far out as a general average for everywhere, but in some cases the increase will be greater; but as the vast majority of in-habitants

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of the Colonial Empire grow their own food or get it from their neighbours, it is rather in luxuries or semi-luxuries that the pinch will be felt. By semi-luxuries I mean things which are not absolutely necessary but which people have got so accustomed to that they are reluctant to do without them. In some ways, of course, the war gives us opportunities which we should not have otherwise enjoyed for compelling certain Colonial producers to produce food which is better for them than the food they are now eating. In some places, for instance, the cocoa belt in West Africa, and Uganda with its cotton, there has been too much concentration on growing export crops and buying or even importing food. Ever since the events which led up to the Nutrition Committee of 1937 we have been trying hard to get the Colonies to grow more of their own food and better kinds of food; for instance, more fruit and higher qualities of pulses. Now that the export market is in peril the producers in some cases are taking this advice to heart and will probably be better fed after the war than they were before it.
It would be foolish to pretend that the effect of the war has not been to make it both more expensive and more difficult to obtain most of the goods which the Colonies require to import, and it would be foolish to pretend that all those requirements can be filled to the same extent as they were filled before the war. We are all having to make sacrifices in war, and one of the sacrifices which the Colonies are making, and I think are pretty gladly making, is a certain diminution in their supplies of goods for consumption from overseas. It has not been the policy of His Majesty's Government to attempt to maintain supplies at anything like 100 per cent. pre-war level. What we have done, and I think successfully, is to endeavour to prevent serious distress arising out of our war-time conditions; and I believe if you made a tour of the Colonies to-day you would feel as satisfied as we do that, given the weight of the war impact, the Colonies are really suffering extraordinarily little. Where crops upon which particular Colonies have relied have become unsaleable owing to war-time conditions, the Government have stepped in with special schemes of assistance in practically every case, either by
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the purchase of the whole crop, as with West African cocoa, or by the guarantee of a minimum return, as with Jamaican bananas. Of course, the guarantee of a minimum return or financial payment can never be a proper substitute for a more healthy and natural trade, but at least it does prevent starvation or any grave result. Secondly, we have endeavoured to see that the cash so provided to Colonial communities can be turned into essential supplies from outside, either from this country, if supplies can be got, or from non-sterling sources, if necessary. Thus we have actually been making available some of our hardly-needed dollars for the necessities of our Colonies.
As my noble friend has very properly suggested, it is desirable that the Colonies should themselves turn to filling in their requirements as much as they can by their own internal production. That is never absent from our minds. I quite agree that that this war period is a period in which the Colonial Governments have a great opportunity of taking a step for-yard in that direction, and I can assure the noble Lord that that is very closely in my mind. That was one of things which were urged upon Colonial Governments at the very beginning of the war by my predecessor, and indeed it has often been urged upon them, as the noble Lord said. for years past. I think we must admit that quite a number of the Colonies have, in the past, concentrated far too much on the production of possibly one very profitable export crop, and have been entirely blind to what I should call the necessity for a healthy system of mixed farming. This has been particularly the case in the West Indies, where there has been a very general neglect of agriculture except for the production of sugar and other export crops. The results have been lamentable, I think, quite apart from the difficulties of securing these imports in time of war, for, as a consequence, their agriculture in the Colony becomes entirely unbalanced, and consequently the standard of nutrition, as I have suggested, gets very low. For some years past, therefore, my predecessors have, I believe, been urging upon Colonial Governments the importance of what I call mixed farming whereby they can get soil enrichment and a better balanced agriculture generally. I can assure the noble Lord that we are going

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to do all that we can to meet his suggestions in that respect.
Now I come to a matter which interests me very particularly, to which the noble lord has also referred, and that is what can be done to increase the growth of secondary industries in the Crown Colonies. What I said about better balance in agriculture is applicable in certain respects to secondary industries. I do not think you can get away from the fact, look at it how you will—although it is highly complex, as I am beginning to learn—that it is our duty to try to make the Crown Colonies as healthy normal entities as we can. They should not merely depend upon one industry or upon the export trade of primary products, but, within the range of what is economically sane and sound, you should try to develop a reasonable-number of secondary industries in the Crown Colonies.
I say without hesitation that a great diversity of Colonial economy is very much to be desired, not only as a peacetime objective. I do not see why to a certain extent—there are difficulties like machinery in the way—we should not make some progress even in war-time. But the difficulties are very great. You generally get people who are mad supporters of one scheme or the other, one ideal or the other. Perhaps they want to develop in the fullest degree secondary industries in the Crown Colonies without remembering at the time that there are mutual dutes, drat is to say, that the Mother Country, whose taxpayers provide large sums for the defence of the Crown Colonies, must have its interests taken into consideration; and there are also great Imperial interests, which are just as vital to the Crown Colony itself as to the Mother Country, in respect of shipping, which again have to be considered. But, subject to those considerations, subject of course to the futility of trying to create a purely hothouse industry dustry which is incapable of standing without expensive support—the noble Lord opposite, knowing my Protectionist views of old days, will be surprised that I even abate ray enthusiasm for Protection by that degree, but there are degrees where of course Protection of that kind is foolish—there is none the less a great deal that can be done and, as a profession
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of faith to the noble Lord—I have only been in office five months or so—I can only say that within those limits I shall do everything I can to see what can be done to make a step forward in the development of Crown Colony industries. Many Colonics are small, and for those to attempt to reproduce the diversified economy of the larger Colonies would obviously be most undesirable.
I should like to go back for a moment, because I have a note about the case of an absurd development in a Crown Colony of an industry which was not natural to it, and which yet looked rather natural. The Department was good enough to give me this note for which I asked. Some years ago in a particular Colony certain producers of sisal found themselves embarrassed for a market. They therefore induced the Colonial Government to put a very high import duty on rope and cord, and under the protection of this duty a rope and cord factory was erected in the Colony and began to operate and flourish. Owing to the high rate of duty, imports diminished and consumers had to pay a higher price for the local article. In the course of time the ownership of the rope factory passed into different hands, and the new owners found they were paying an excessive price for local sisal. They therefore started importing sisal from a neighbouring Colony, and the owners of the plantation then induced the local Government to put a duty on imported sisal. The price of rope and cord soared even higher than before, and thus the whole community paid unnecessarily high prices for a useful commodity in order to benefit two or three individuals. I do not know who the author of this note is, but seeing the delighted faces of my old free trade friends opposite, I wonder whether it was not a free trader who put forward that view.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Protection at its best!
LORD LLOYD: That may be, or at its worst. We must not revive those delightful but ancient controversies, though I sometimes regret there has been nothing quite like them to take their place since. I feel that there is a great opportunity before us in the matter of the development of industry. I have tried in a reasonably short space of time to answer

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most of the questions put forward by the noble Lord. With regard to the question of the Council, the last one he put forward, I can only say I will give it my most careful consideration.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, may I ask one question arising out of the extremely interesting and most valuable statement of the Colonial Secretary? He said, with regard to Cyprus, that a large part, almost the whole, of the citrus export trade has been lost, and that the Government were taking special measures to assist the Colonies. In respect of Palestine similarly, he said, the citrus trade had suffered very greatly, Palestine having 70 per cent. of its exports in that commodity. He also mentioned, reviewing the Colonial Empire and, I presume, also including the Mandated Territories as a whole, that it was true to say that, where special losses have been suffered, in practically every case special schemes of assistance have been adopted. Can the noble Lord say what is proposed to be done in relation to Palestine, where last season more than half of the citrus export trade was lost and where this season I fear the diminution may be even greater?
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, may I ask a further question? The noble Lord told us of the co-operation which is going on between his Department and the refugee Governments in this country. The question I want to ask is whether it is possible for that co-operation to take active measures to prevent the sale of commodities—for instance, oil from the Dutch East Indies—to countries which are either our enemies or potential enemies. Public opinion in this country has been disturbed by rumours that oil was to be sold by the Dutch East Indies, or by the oil companies in the Dutch East Indies, to Japan—oil which we understood had been already purchased by the British Government. Can the noble Lord give us some assurance with regard to that matter?
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Samuel has asked me about the difficult situation with regard to citrus in Palestine. I do not think it would be desirable at this moment to say exactly what we are trying to do, but if the noble Viscount would communicate with me on
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the subject I should be glad to talk the matter over with him. I am afraid I am not in a position to answer the question with regard to oil, but if the noble Lord would write to me, or put down a special question, I should be very glad to go into it.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I think all your Lordships will join with me in thanking the noble Lord for his reply to this Motion—a reply which has given us an extremely interesting and, certainly from my point of view, an encouraging statement. I noted that the noble Lord said he hoped that present arrangements and negotiations with Allied Governments would lead to co-operation not only during but after the war. It is important that that view should be kept in sight, because during the last war probably similar arrangements were made and then lost sight of. I was tempted perhaps to be a little carping about the noble Lord's undue optimism with regard to some of the Colonies. I think the noble Lord puts the matter rather too brightly, if I may say so. The hardship caused by the rise in the price of imports tends to fall unduly heavily on primary producers owing to the proportion of the price paid by His Majesty's Government which goes into other pockets.
Finally, I was extremely glad to hear the noble Lord speak of plans for the greater self-sufficiency of the Colonies and for local industries. I was particularly comforted to hear that because some of his remarks had a disquieting effect. This policy of buying up crops like the cocoa crop simply to burn them is, of course, thoroughly uneconomic and will not in itself lead to any kind of reorganisation of the Colonies' production. It is essential, if we do come to the Colonies' rescue in that way, that our assistance should be conditional on the reorganisation of the Colonies' economic life. I hope that is what the noble Lord meant when he said he was profoundly interested in, and was encouraging, schemes for reorganisation of local industry. I thank the Secretary of State once again for his reply, and beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, with-drawn.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the day for the consideration of the First Report from the Select Committee read.
THE Committee reported as follows:
1.—Estimates.
The Est mate for 1941 was laid before the Committee by the Clerk of the Parliaments and approved.
2.—Resident Superintendent.
The Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod informed the Committee that accommodation could be found for the Resident Superintendent in the residence allotted to the Yeoman Usher during such time as the Resident Superintendent's Hat was not habitable. The Committee sanctioned a grant to the Resident Superintendent for emergency expenses.
3.—Examinership.
The Lord Chairman informed the Committee of the resignation of Mr. E. C. Vigors, C.B., lately Principal Clerk of Committees, from the post of Examiner and of the temporary appointment in his place of Mr. G. 11. Eastwood. The Committee sanctioned an increase of Mr. Vigor's pension under arrangements proposed at the time of his retirement, Mr. Eastwood's salary as Examiner to be decided by the Lord Chairman and the Clerk of the Parliaments after consultation with the Treasury.
4.—Custodians.
The Committee sanctioned the appointment of eight additional custodians, it being understood that the expense of these would be shared by the House of Commons.
5.—Housemaid.
The Committee sanctioned a gratuity under Section 4 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, to Mrs. Cockett, housemaid, on retirement owing to ill-health after 20 years' service.
6.—Sub-Committees.
The Sub-Committee on the Refreshment Department was reappointed as follows: The Earl of Lucan, the Lord Hare (Earl of Listowel), the Lord Stanmore, the Lord Jessel, the Lord Atkin, the Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, with the Lord Great Chamberlain, with the Clerk of the Parliaments.
The Library Sub-Committee was reappointed as follows: The Marquess of Crewe, the Earl of 11chester, the Earl of Onslow, the Earl Baldwin of Bewdley, the Lord Stanmore, the Lord Atkin, the Lord Macmillan, the Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, with the Clerk of the Parliaments.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I beg to move that the First Report of the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be considered and agreed to. I do not think there is anything particular in the Report to which I should draw
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your Lordships' attention except paragraph 3, the question of the Examiner-ship. Mr. Vigors, who has been Examiner for a number of years, lives in Ireland, and under present conditions finds it difficult to be sure of getting over to England in time when we may want him. Therefore he has felt it his duty to offer his resignation. It is forty years since Mr. Vigors entered the service of the House. The question of his successor has presented a certain amount of difficulty because your Lordships are well aware that not all the officers of the House are available at the present moment, some of them being on military service. So Mr. Eastwood has undertaken the duty of Examiner until the end of the war or such other time as it may be possible for us to make a more permanent selection. The question of salary will be arranged in due course with the Treasury. I do not think there is anything else and I beg to move.
Moved, That the Report be now considered and agreed to.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the First Report from the Select Committee read.
The Committee reported as follows:
That the Committee are of opinion that no sufficient cause has been shown for any alteration in the present procedure of the House as regards starred questions, and approve the Amendment recently made to the Companion to the Standing Orders as follows:
"If a Peer is not satisfied with the answer given, a supplementary question can be asked, provided such supplementary question is confined to the subject of the original question. Debates should not take place on a starred question: it is, however, open to any Peer dissatisfied with the answer given to the starred question to put on the Paper for a subsequent day a Motion dealing with the subject at issue. Notice of any starred question should appear on the Order Paper not later than the day before that on which an answer is desired."
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords you will remember that this matter has been the subject of discussion in your Lordships' House on more than one occasion, and that on the last occasion it was decided to set up a Committee to consider this and any other matter connected with it and to report to your Lord-

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ships' House. It was a strong Committee which was appointed, consisting of members who have had great experience in debate and of members from all quarters of the House. The Committee had two meetings and considered the whole subject very carefully. They did not think it desirable to make any alterations in the present procedure and they approved the Amendment recently made to the Companion of Standing Orders which I will read to your Lordships:
"If a Peer is not satisfied with the answer given, a supplementary question can be asked, provided such supplementary question is confined to the subject of the original question.'
I think your Lordships will all agree that the practice of having starred questions is to save your Lordships time, and therefore that the amount of question and answer which passes should be as strictly limited as possible. The object of the starred question is, of course, to avoid having a lengthy discussion.
The next point is covered by the words of the recent addition to the Companion—namely
"Debates should not take place on a starred question:"—
that of course is the object of the starred question—
"it is, however, open to any Peer dissatisfied with the answer given to the starred question to put on the Paper for a subsequent day a Motion dealing with the subject at issue. Notice of any starred question should appear on the Order Paper not later than the day before that on which an answer is desired."
Your Lordships will see it is suggested that if the answer to a starred question is of such importance as to require it, any member of your Lordships' House desiring further discussion should put a Motion on the Paper for a subsequent day, so that the matter raised would receive full discussion and consideration in a debate on the subject in the House. The whole object of the starred question is to use that method simply for obtaining information and not for the purpose of discussion upon the matter indicated in the question. If it is necessary for other discussion there are many other methods by which a debate can be raised.
The only other point that I think I ought to mention to your Lordships is this. Your Lordships will see that this
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is called the First Report from the Select Committee on the Procedure of the House of Lords. We suggest to your Lordships that the Committee might remain in being, so that if any other points arise on any other question of procedure we should I not have to reconstitute the Committee or set up a new one, but should have this Committee always available to deal with any points that may possibly arise in the future. I beg to move.
Moved, That the First Report from the Select Committee on the Procedure of the House of Lords be now considered and agreed to.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I am sure you would like to thank the noble Earl who has just spoken for his very clear exposition of the Report of the Committee. The position seems to be precisely the same as it was before. The starred question remains as part of the procedure of your Lordships' House. The only thing I am sorry about is that the Committee did not see their way to recommend that the starred question should have a priority on the Order Paper. I believe that such a procedure would suit the convenience especially of the Ministers who have to reply to these questions, because they would not then be kept hanging about until all the other business had first of all been done before they were able to reply to the starred questions which they had come here to answer. That is the only suggestion I have to make, and I would like to thank the noble Earl for his admirable and clear exposition of the Report.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, as a member of the Committee may I for a moment reply to what my noble friend Lord Davies said about the time of Ministers? We carefully considered that, and the Committee, which contained many Peers of far greater experience than myself, reminded us—I am sure Lord Templemore will appreciate this—that the place of Ministers is on the Bench opposite, that members of the Government are supposed to attend meetings of your Lordships' House. In an older and better age that rule was strictly enforced. My noble friend (Lord Snell) and Lord Templemore are examples to their colleagues in that matter.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SECRET SESSION.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that the further sitting of the House this day be secret.
Moved, That the further sitting of the House this day be secret.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
The Official Reporter then withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House adjourned.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section I of the Act to the

Urban District of Horncastle;

Borough of Louth;

Urban District of Wellington (Salop);

Urban District of New Hunstanton;

Urban District of Oadby;

City of Bath;

Borough of Stourbridge;

Borough of Abergavenny.

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

CENTRAL (COAL MINES) SCHEME (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1940.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Special Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that they have received and considered the Report from the Mines Department; that in their opinion the Order raises important questions of policy and principle; that the Order is not founded on precedent although an Order has already been sub-
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mitted for the approval of Parliament under the Coal Mines Act, 1930, which was of a different character; that in the opinion of the Committee the Order cannot be passed by the House without special attention but that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution to approve the Special Order.
Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

HAYWARDS HEATH GAS ORDER, 1940.

  WESSEX (NORTH BASINGSTOKE) ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1940.
  Report from the Special Orders Committee. That no Petitions have been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House.
  Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

CHARTERED AND OTHER BODIES (METHODIST CHURCH) ORDER, 1940.
Draft of an Order under Section 2 (3) of the Chartered and Other Bodies (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1939:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.