Sitting of 14 September 1939

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  AIR-RAID WARNINGS (WORKERS' LOST TIME).
  Mr. Stephenasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that owing to the air-raid signal on 6th September many people were late at their work; and whether he intends to introduce legislation to see that they are not penalised by loss of wages for such periods when their failure to work is due to circum stances outwith their control?
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): This question is under discussion in various industries, and I understand that in some cases agreed arrangements have already been made to meet the situation. There is no present intention of introducing special legislation.

  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will see that certain urgent reforms are introduced in workmen's compensation and that the maximum amount pay able is increased as soon as possible?
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): I agree with the view expressed by my predecessor in office, that it would not be right to attempt to legislate on the major issues, before the Royal Commission have completed their review of the problem, and I am in communication with the chairman of the Royal Commission on the question of their pursuing their inquiries, notwithstanding present difficulties.
  Mr. George Griffiths: Is not the Home Secretary aware of the report that was given in regard to nystagmus, silicosis
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  and other diseases, by a Select Committee which was set up by the present Lord Privy Seal, who said that they were prepared to do something? Is he also aware that some people have been suffering for 10 years with nystagmus; and is it intended to do anything in those cases?
  Sir J. Anderson: I do not think the position in that respect has changed since my right hon. Friend made a statement some time ago.
  Mr. Griffiths: No, it has not changed, and we want it changed.
  Mr. Cassells: Is the right hon. Gentleman of the opinion that the Royal Commission on this very important problem should still function?
  Sir J. Anderson: I have just indicated my opinion on that point.

  AIR-RAID SHELTERS (NORTH QUEENSFERRY).
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Home Secretary what protests he has received from North Queensferry following his refusal to supply bomb-proof shelters; and will he circulate to Members of the House the report of his Scottish representative on this area?
  Sir J. Anderson: No protests have been received, either by the Home Office or by my regional adviser in Edinburgh, against the policy which has been adopted for providing air-raid shelter at North Queensferry. As the hon. Member is aware, the problem of providing shelter in this area was very closely investigated on the spot by the technical advisers of my Department and a comprehensive plan for dealing with it was drawn up and is now being put into operation. It would be contrary to practice and open to strong objection in principle, to publish a report made by a departmental officer for the information of his official superiors, but the conclusions which I reached after consideration of that report have been fully explained in a letter which I addressed to the hon. Member and, as I have already informed him, I have no objection to his publishing that letter.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister not aware of the deep feeling which exists in North

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  Queensferry on this matter at the moment; is he also aware that only a concrete shelter is in course of construction in the children's playground, and if he is not prepared to provide better facilities for protection in a place which could easily become a death trap, will he see that the school children, at any rate, are evacuated?
  Sir J. Anderson: I was very anxious that the most rapid progress possible in the circumstances should be made in the provision of shelter in the area in accordance with the approved scheme. On the point about evacuation, I shall certainly consult with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that there is no shelter there yet, although they are working at it and that the school is occupied by the military, and that therefore something should be done immediately for the children?
  Sir J. Anderson: I will look into that.

  GERMAN AND ITALIAN BROADCASTS.
  Mrs. Tateasked the Lord Privy Seal, as representing the Minister of In formation whether he is aware that on 6th September sounds extinguishing Ger man and Italian broadcasts made these inaudible in this country; and whether any steps have been taken to jam such stations?
  The Lord Privy Seal (Sir Samuel Hoare): My Noble Friend has no information that German and Italian broadcasts were rendered inaudible on the date mentioned. No steps have been taken in this country to interfere with the transmission of any foreign broadcasting station.

  GREAT BRITAIN AND GERMANY (WHITE PAPER).
  Sir Percy Harrisasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider publishing a further White Paper dealing with Anglo-German relations to controvert some of the allegations made by the Ger man Government, including therein relevant documents covering the history thereof since the occupation of Prague?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): I would refer the hon. Baronet to the Prime Minister's reply to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) yesterday.
  Sir P. Harris: Will the Prime Minister consider dating back the review of these matters so that we may know what all the relevant points are? Will the publication go back for some months instead of dealing merely with the events of the last few weeks?
  Mr. Butler: I hope the documents in question will go back to the period desired by the hon. Baronet.
  Mr. Cocks: Is it possible that they might go back to the end of the Blue Book which was issued about two years ago containing an account of the negotiations with Germany up to that point?
  Mr. Butler: I will certainly undertake to examine the point raised by the hon. Member, but I think that the arrangement at present in contemplation is as suggested by the hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris).

  IRAQ (TREATY OBLIGATIONS).
  Mr. Mander: asked the Prime Minister whether he is able to make any statement about the position of Iraq in relation to the war?
  Mr. Butler: The Treaty of Alliance between His Majesty's Government and the Iraqi Government lays down that if either of the parties becomes engaged in war, the other party will immediately come to his aid in the capacity of an ally The treaty further provides that the aid of the Iraqi Government will consist in furnishing to His Majesty's Government on Iraqi territory all facilities and assistance in their power, including the use of all means of communication. The Iraqi Government have made it clear that they are prepared to carry out their treaty obligations both in the letter and in the spirit. They have already severed relations with the German Government and have taken various measures of a precautionary kind which are regarded by His Majesty's Government as most satisfactory. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing

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  the appreciation of His Majesty's Government for the loyal and friendly attitude of their ally.

  MUNITIONS.
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to set up a Ministry of Munitions or whether he is satisfied that the present arrangements will secure the best results?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): The powers granted by Parliament in the Ministry of Supply Act are sufficiently wide to cover any development of the functions of the Ministry which may be required. The existing arrangements are working very satisfactorily and much expansion has already taken place.

  WAR SITUATION.
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he is able to make any general statement as to military and aerial action in the West to counteract the German pressure on Poland in the East?
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made yesterday to which I have at present nothing to add.
  Mr. Mander: Is the Prime Minister able to give any further information about the bombing of military objectives in Germany?

  BRITISH WAR AIMS.
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed at an early date to make a statement with regard to war aims; and whether, before doing so, he will consider the advisability of consulting the Opposition leaders in order that the policy, when declared shall represent the views of the House as a whole?
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave yesterday in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Division of Leeds (Mr. V. Adams). As regards the last part of the question, while His Majesty's Government must take full responsibility for such a statement, it is my intention to maintain the close touch with the leaders of the Opposition which at present exists.
  Major Sir George Davies: Is my right hon. Friend aware that our principal war aim at the moment is to defeat the enemy and that we should give all our attention to that?

  GERMAN AIR WARFARE.
  Mr. Dalton(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the official announcement issued yesterday from Herr Hitler's headquarters that German artillery, men and airmen have hitherto shown excessive consideration for open towns, hamlets and villages in Poland but that in future the German Air Force in co-operation with heavy artillery would take all suitable measures to make clear the useless-ness of resistance, and whether he has any statement to make?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government have noted this announcement, which on the face of it is in flat contradiction of the German Chancellor's recent statement to the Reichstag, when he disclaimed any desire to make war on women and children. The restrictions we (like the French) have imposed upon the operations of our own Forces were based upon the condition of similar restraint being observed by our opponents and His Majesty's Government must of course hold themselves free, if such restraint is not in fact observed, to take such action as they may deem appropriate. But I wish to add that whatever be the lengths to which others may go, His Majesty's Government will never resort to the deliberate attack on women, children and other civilians for purposes of mere terrorism. In the meantime it must be remembered that our strategy and tactics must at all stages be governed by one consideration and one only, namely, the most effective prosecution of the war.
  I will add that if action of the kind suggested in the German announcement is taken, it will inevitably further strengthen the resolve of ourselves and our Allies so to conduct our policy and so to prosecute the war as to ensure that the menace we are fighting (of which this may be another manifestation) is finally removed.
  Mr. Dalton: While appreciating the Prime Minister's answer, may I ask him whether the War Cabinet has constantly

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  in mind the solemn obligation entered into in our Treaty of Alliance with Poland whereby we undertook to render to Poland all the support and assistance in our power?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, certainly.
  Mr. Thorne: Does not the Prime Minister now recognise that this man in question is getting very desperate, and, as a matter of fact, in my opinion he will get more desperate later on?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: Will the Prime Minister make a statement with regard to the course of business?
The Prime Minister: We desire to obtain the Second Reading of the Control of Employment Bill and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution. Also the remaining stages of the next three Bills and the Motion to approve the Ministry of Supply (Transfer of Powers) (No. 2) Order. When this business is disposed of, questions relating to evacuation will be raised on the Motion for the Adjournment. I hope that it will not be necessary for the House to sit late this evening.
Representations have been made to me with regard to Oral Questions which have been put down for to-morrow. As the House is aware, Friday is not a day on which questions are answered, but in view of the intermittent sittings of the House questions down for to-morrow will be answered by Ministers.
Tomorrow the Adjournment of the House will be proposed until Wednesday next.
Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the event of the House sitting on Fridays, to-morrow's procedure will become normal, because the right hon. Gentleman spoke only of questions down for to-morrow? My next question is as to whether, when the Motion for the Adjournment is proposed to-morrow, the Prime Minister will be in a position to state the business for next week, so far as it is arranged?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think the answer to both those questions is in the affirmative.
Mr. Boothby: Can my right hon Friend say whether any decision has been reached as to the hour at which the House will meet next week?
The Prime Minister: I think a similar question was asked yesterday, to which I gave the reply that for the present it is proposed to carry on at the normal hours.
Mr. J. J. Davidson: On that question, will the right hon Gentleman give his mind to the very great difficulties of the staff of this House with regard to the hours that we are maintaining at present?
The Prime Minister: Yes, I have them very much in mind.
Mr. Garro Jones: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman and the usual channels whether it is possible to give any guarantee that the House will not sit beyond the hours of darkness on any night, and would it not obviously be for the convenience of the whole House to rise before dark if possible.
The Prime Minister: It depends on the House itself. I cannot give any guarantee.
Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croft: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the enormous strain which is being put on the Departments at present, and more especially the fighting Services, and will he consider that before he comes to any final decision about changing the hours of the House?
The Prime Minister The Prime Minister indicated assent.

BILL PRESENTED.
POSSESSION OF MORTGAGED LAND (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL,
"to restrict the rights of mortgagees to obtain possession of mortgaged land," presented by the Attorney-General; supported by the Solicitor-General; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 271.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to, —
Hamilton Burgh Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CONTROL OF EMPLOYMENT BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.4 p.m.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  During the First Reading, when I fully explained the objects, scope and machinery of this Bill, and when my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) asked the Government that consultation with the trade unions should be made statutory, it became clear that further consultations with the workers' and employers' organisations was desirable before Second Reading, in order that the suggestion, and any other points, might be fully discussed. I am glad to inform the House that these discussions have taken place, that they have been full, friendly, and co-operative, and that as a result certain agreed Amendments will be placed on the Order Paper to secure the fullest consultation at the beginning of and throughout the whole procedure under this Bill. These Amendments will also provide certain other agreed safeguards. I will explain their contents, not, of course, the details—those are for to-morrow—as briefly and as simply as I can. I think that that procedure will best serve the purposes of the House, and I am sure that if the House agrees on the Committee stage to insert those Amendments, they will quiet many fears and they will allay many suspicions which are natural to those whose experience of the last War, as the last Debate showed, is vivid.
  The Amendments are designed and drafted in three main groups. The first group will provide that before making an order under the Act the Minister must refer it in draft to a committee appointed by him, consisting of a chairman and equal numbers of members representing respectively organisations of workers and organisations of employers which appear to him to be concerned, and that any report of the committee must be laid before the House with the order when made. Members will see that at the first stage the industrial organisations concerned will thus have full knowledge as to what is proposed and a statutory right
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  to make their contribution to shaping the order and that the House will have the advantage of the knowledge contained in their report. We shall get the fullest publicity in this way and so avoid, what was so constant in the last War, unrest as the result of misunderstanding.
  Mr. Gordon Macdonald: Is the House to give formal approval to the order?
  Mr. Brown: Yes. The second group will safeguard the worker by providing, first, that consent to engagement or re-engagement must not be refused unless the Minister can notify to the worker concerned at the same time suitable alternative employment, and, secondly, that an employé can appeal to the court of referees if he says that suitable alternative employment was not offered to him. If the court of referees uphold him, consent is automatically given. These Amendments will also provide that if the court uphold the worker, they shall award him compensation according to regulations to be discussed with the Trades Union Congress and employers' organisations before they are made and laid before Parliament.
  Mr. George Griffiths: Will the court of referees be the court as at present constituted?
  Mr. Brown: Certainly. The next group of Amendments will give statutory form to an undertaking which I gave on First Reading, and they will enable joint machinery of the trade unions and employers, whether existing now or set up hereafter, to be used for effecting engagements if duly approved and subject to approved conditions. I think the House will see at once that these Amendments will secure that no consent is required where this machinery is used and approved. I think we have a series of Amendments here which, when they are discussed in detail to-morrow, will show to the House that the main safeguards will be provided and that cooperation of those who are affected will be secured from the beginning and throughout the whole of the procedure. I think the long discussions between the First and Second Readings prove how sincere the Government are in seeking to avoid all misunderstandings and to make the arrangements clear.
  Arising out of the First Reading Debate, I want to say two things. The

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  first is that there is no question of the dilution of labour under this Bill, and the second is that neither is there any question of the leaving certificate which was adopted and abandoned in the last War. I want to say one other word to allay unnecessary fears in one direction. Fears have been expressed to me that the ordinary work of the registry offices concerned with supplying domestic staffs, clerks, and artistes in the entertainment industry will be affected. On this, I would say two things. First, the Act does not require that engagement should take place through any particular channel or agency. It does say that when engagements covered by an order are made they require the Minister's consent.
  The second thing that I wish to say on that point is this: While the House will not expect me to forecast the precise working out and the scope of the orders before we consider the particular sections to which they apply. I want to make it clear that at first there is no intention of going beyond limited groups of highly skilled and vital workers. I think I am right in saying that the groups of domestic staffs, clerks and artists which I have mentioned are most unlikely to be the subject of orders. We want this Bill because we want an orderly and fully understood procedure to secure the guidance of labour to the vital national tasks. Let me make it clear again that the Bill will affect only a small number of highly skilled workers, and I am sure that it will with the Amendments I have outlined, prevent much of the suspicion and misunderstanding which arose in the last War. Workmen in the country should understand from the start that this Measure is not an automatic general measure of control. It provides for machinery for the making of particular orders, with consultations, to meet special needs. The workmen who are not the subject of a special order will remain unaffected.
  I would ask the country to take a wide view not only of its tasks, but of the place which this Measure takes in carrying them out. By our attitude in these first days we have shown that we are anxious that British workmen and employers should have full confidence in the Government in industrial matters. The Government have full confidence in them and in their representative organisa-
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  tions. We are sure that the industrial knowledge, ability and experience and the patriotism of our people will be a vital element in the struggle for victory. The Bill has reached this stage as the result of much detailed discussion and helpful constructive co-operation by the Trades Union Congress and the Employers' Federation, for which I—and I am speaking for the Government—am profoundly grateful. The discussions illustrate the spirit in which the Government intend to proceed on all matters connected wih the operaion of this Bill, and, I may add, in relation to all other questions affecting our industrial relations in the strenuous time that lies ahead of us in our determination to make a victorious effort to bring Nazism low.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the explanation of what was said in the last Debate to the effect that the Trades Union Congress had been consulted about this matter?
  Mr. Brown: The explanation is that it was accurate. Difficulty and misunderstanding arose because the Trades Union Congress were at that time meeting at Bridlington. Telephone messages took place, and there was a certain amount of misunderstanding which has been cleared up.
  3.13 p.m.
  Mr. David Grenfell: All those who were present in the Debate last week will be glad that we decided on that occasion to postpone the Second Reading of this Bill. This House is entitled to be jealous of its service to the nation in this emergency, and if it permitted itself undue haste or precipitancy, or did work which would not bear examination, it would be very bad. We are starting upon a long career of struggle in which legislation and the use of legislation will play an important part. This Bill is not an ordinary piece of legislation, and the House sensed that last week when it made its appearance in circumstances which laid it open to doubt and suspicion in all parts of the House. The Title of the Bill itself is unfortunate. However, a Bill must have a title of some kind, and it is difficult to suggest an appropriate alternative. It is the principle of the Bill with which we are concerned. In the previous Debate it was truly reported that organised labour and

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  those who represent the organised worker had been consulted, and it was stated in clear terms that they agreed with the principle of the Bill. That has been confirmed at the beginning of to-day' Debate.
  There can be no doubt in the minds of those who have examined this legislation that the concessions announced by the Minister to-day are very important concessions indeed, and must bring much satisfaction to the minds of those who sit on this side of the House, and who are more directly responsible for their actions in Parliament than Members who may not have as intimate a contact with labour and its problems. I remember the difficulties of the last War when, through the four and a half years, I was in daily negotiation regarding wages, conditions of employment, transfer and housing accommodation. I gave evidence in the part of the country where I belong to the Industrial Unrest Commission, which was presided over by the late lamented member of my party who often stood at this Box. I refer to Mr. Vernon Hartshorn. He was chairman of the commission to inquire into the industrial unrest which had appeared in all parts of the country. I say without hesitation that one of the most painful sources of irritation at that time was the restrictions placed upon the movement and freedom of the labouring classes. I hope we have learned some of the lessons of the four-and-a-half years from 1914–18
  I am sure the Minister is wise in giving attention without delay to this problem, not to the control of employment or to the regulation and regimentation of labour, but to seeing the need for a better organisation in this struggle in which we are involved. To-day we are making a departure in the interests of better organisation, but this organisation to be effective must be obtained by general consent. It is no use trying to pass a Bill through this House by a majority. The consent which has to be obtained in the larger field outside must first of all be obtained in the smaller circle of our Parliamentary life. There must be a plan. We cannot go on organising for the great task of the production of munitions, food and services of all kinds without a definite plan, a plan with many intricacies and complications, but a plan which will indicate to all the people of this country the general
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  lines upon which we should proceed to maintain the country's daily existence and to provide against the horrible and wasteful expenditure of materials which war entails.
  All that must be done according to a well-understood plan. There will be many elements of this plan. This Bill is one of the elements. We are now testing the efficiency of a nation freely organised against the more rigid system of the totalitarian States. We must win by superior efficiency. It is no use burking it. We do not win by mere weight of numbers; we must win by superior efficiency. This House is concerned with that, and no one is more concerned than the bulk of the people whom we claim to represent. They are the essence of industrial power. All our heavy industries must be fully manned and fully productive. The engineering and tool and instrument-making trades are vital to success, absolutely vital, and I hope the Minister of Labour will not lose sight of the essential need of finding suitable men and suitable conditions for the production of the essential materials. Agriculture cannot spare any of its workers. The food problem is a problem by itself, and agriculture will play an important part in our national activities in the next two or three years.
  Transport and textile production will also be important, and the Minister of Labour, if he is to play a full part in this new work, must know how many men and women he will require for each of the various branches of our national life. He must get the right kind of workers and, let me warn the House, he must see that they are properly treated. That is vital. We cannot let the lot of the worker be subject to spasmodic bargaining, to a struggle and scramble between employers and workpeople. That cannot be tolerated. That would defeat in time any organisation which we set up. The Government must make up their mind in the very beginning of this new plan of organisation that the workpeople have the first claim, that they must be properly treated in every respect, and their comfort and their welfare must not be lost sight of for a minute. The lessons of 1914–1918 should be kept closely in mind by all of us.
  The question of wages is not included in this Bill, but it is a vital question.

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  We cannot have peace in industry, we shall never be able to retain men in industry, unless they are assured of the highest possible wages. Already one notices signs of increasing prices, and of the stabilisation of prices at higher levels, and we must see to it that wages correspond to those rises in price, so that the purchasing power of the people may be maintained. The Minister has a responsibility in that matter. His mind must be responsive and alert to all these things. He must keep in touch with the trade unions, who have a far greater knowledge—a massed knowledge, a cumulative knowledge—of conditions of employment than any other body. They are the only ones in this country who can speak authoritatively and effectively on behalf of the working class. The various trades all have their special problems, and for each of them special knowledge is required in order that we may be able to make the fullest use of them.
  The Minister must have the control and the direction of labour to some extent, but I am glad to hear him say that it is not proposed that we shall embark upon a wholesale attempt to control employment. It is not necessary, and it would be folly if we tried it. No Government can achieve all that, but when there is a breakdown in the supply of labour and men have to be found for jobs, then assistance must be given. The Government cannot do all these things unaided, and there is no better way of proceeding than along the lines of the plan laid down, under which there will be consultation before anything is done. Before the Minister asks for an Order, before there is any suggestion of regulations, before anything is done to deal with the difficulty, the Minister will meet the representatives of organised labour, of the employers and of all people concerned and interested. They will go into consultation and will come to their decisions after a consideration of all the details involved. Then the Order will come before the House, with a report from the committee, so that the House will be just as well informed as the committee. Every Member will know the reasons upon which the Order is based and the scope of the Order.
  I am glad that the Minister has improved upon the Amendments which he so readily undertook to accept on the last occasion when we raised this matter. I
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  hope the House will find it possible to give the Bill a Second Reading to-day, and then we can go on to the Committee stage to-morrow when there will be nothing to prevent the fullest examination of all the Amendments which the Minister has enumerated. Those Amendments provide for some quite novel and far-reaching concessions. I regard the proposal to consult the organised workers and to report to this House, to educate the House and the public in general regarding the conditions of employment before any change is made, as of tremendous value to the workers and to all those who have assumed responsibility for the conduct of industrial affairs over the next two or three years. I shall not deal with the Amendments. I listened to the Minister and I have a note of the Amendments, and I am sure that when they are fitted into the Bill they will make it a much better Bill than it was when it was presented to us last week. I am sure that nobody regrets the delay in the consideration of the Bill, and indeed, that the Minister must be glad of it, and glad of the suggestions made to him, and his readiness to meet us and accept Amendments satisfies me.
  I want to make this final remark. I would say this to Members of the House —I am not speaking now to the Minister —Do not let anybody assume that it is safe to play tricks with labour now. It is only the workers of this country who can bring the country through. It is no use talking in terms of man-power, of sending men abroad to the various battlefields, of military strategy and all that kind of thing. The backbone of this struggle is the production of munitions. As has been exemplified in the battles which have taken place in the last few days, it is machines that win battles. It is by machines that the battles of the next year or two will be won. It is in the workshops of this country that England's prospect of victory lies and I would warn every Member of the House to regard it as his own special personal obligation to do everything he can to maintain a contented and a happy working class in this country in the next year or two. Already certain complaints have been reaching me. People have written to me, because of the part I played in last week's Debate. I have had reports from workpeople and from others in various parts of the country telling me that already

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  employers are seeking to take advantage of war conditions in order to jeopardise considerably conditions of work. I have heard of employers putting up notices in the shops requiring men to work seven days a week, 12 hours a day.
  Let me say to the House—and also to the Minister, who knows this as well as I do—that we cannot work our people at that pace. If we are asking for a breakdown, that is the way to get it. Men cannot maintain that pace. It will be very difficult indeed to maintain constant work under the strain of war conditions, with the black-out and everything else. I should like the Minister to declare, and every individual Member to carry with him the conviction, that things cannot be done in the way in which certain employers have already intimated that they would like them to be done. We must let our workpeople carry on under the best possible conditions. We must give them the chance of maintaining their homes under the best conditions. There should be no attempt to lower the purchasing power of the workers in any way. There must be no attempt to establish Hitlerism in the works and factories. I appeal to the Minister when he winds up the Debate to speak from the platform of this House to those who employ people, and to warn them that the Government will not tolerate the abuses which have already crept in some industries, but are determined that this time the workers shall have a square deal.
  3.30 p.m.
  Mr. Graham White: May I say at once that I hope that any lurking suspicion or fear that may be in the mind of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) that any section of the community at this time is prepared and willing to play tricks with any other section may prove to be without foundation? If, on the other hand, there are people who are so misguided as to think that they can take advantage of that kind at a time of the nation's extremity I hope that it will be made clear to them—
  Mr. G. Griffiths: They are trying it on now.
  Hon. Members: No, they are not.
  Mr. Griffiths: I know that they are—
  Mr. White: —that there must be no transactions of that kind. Let me pass from that to say that my hon. Friends, and I think the whole House, have heard with profound satisfaction from the Minister to-day that the series of Amendments which the Minister has expressed his willingness to accept, will result in this Bill passing through the House as an agreed Measure. It goes without saying that a Bill of this type, even with this limited purpose, must arouse very great apprehension and concern over the whole country. In my personal experience it did create a vast amount of misunderstanding. There were fears at first sight that it was a Bill for lowering wages in the production of armaments. There was a misapprehension, with regard to the engagement of labour, that many of the well-tried agencies which have been useful in the past in various industries were to be interfered with and, in fact, stopped. One is glad to know what I hope will emerge from this Debate that, on these grounds, there is no reason for suspicion. It is the duty of the House of Commons to be particularly vigilant about a Bill of this kind, and not merely to see that suspicions are allayed and apprehensions put to rest, but to show that there are no foundations in this Bill upon which practices of an unsatisfactory character can be built up.
  It is well known to everybody in this country that industrial conscription, whether partial or general, is impossible and could not be introduced. On the other hand, I think there is general agreement that it is the duty of the Government in these days not merely to direct but to lead the efforts of every one of us, so that we can make, in our particular spheres, the maximum effort to win the right of living our lives in peace and of making our contribution to the welfare and progress of the community in which we live. I am glad that, as a result of the negotiations which have taken place, this is a Bill which may be regarded not as an infringement of our rights but as enabling us to co-operate in the common purpose which is in view.
  I would like at this stage, because I do not see any other opportunity for doing so, to refer to two sentences which the Minister used upon the subject of aliens in the course of his speech when

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  introducing the Bill. I should like a little more information as to the procedure for placing aliens. This is a matter of very great urgency indeed, and it is becoming all the more urgent because there is in the country a very considerable volume of highly-skilled refugee people of various types who are most anxious to make some contribution. That is the human aspect of the matter. Here are these people, who have been driven from Germany and elsewhere, and find their lives frustrated. They are in this country and are absolutely helpless and unable to do anything. I can conceive of no more pathetic sight in these days than a parade of Czech refugees voluntarily walking about the streets in military formation to show their anxiety to do something in these times.
  The specific question that I should like to have answered—I do not know whether it will be possible for the Minister to do so—relates to the procedure to be followed. When these friendly aliens have been before the Lord Chancellor's tribunal, will they be entitled to go to the Employment Exchanges, or whatever agency may be appointed, in order that they may be put into the way of obtaining employment? I know the matter is difficult, yet I also know that people have been kept by trade union subscriptions at this time although they are standing idle. This is a matter which ought to be cleared up. There is another matter in this connection which makes it urgent, and it is that a large number, perhaps the majority, of these prospective workers are being kept by voluntary sources whose funds are becoming exhausted. The situation, therefore, is difficult, and it would be helpful if the Minister could give the House some indication of the procedure to be followed so that these people may be drawn as soon as possible into whatever occupations are best for them to devote their efforts on behalf of the country at this time, subject to the principle that their work shall be an addition to the common effort already being made.
  I am puzzled by some of the things which I see in the Bill, and among them is the interpretation Clause. I see that advertisements may include,
  "any notice, circular or other document."
  I presume that there will be very careful collaboration with the Fighting Services—
  Mr. E. Brown: The intention of that is quite clear. It will be very difficult to draw the line between ordinary communications and publications of the kind which we are trying to stop and which are blatant attempts at poaching. Hon. Members will see that people have already begun to do this. The problem is treated in this way so that we shall not get people taken away from their normal work—
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether he regards it as poaching for an employer to offer increased wages to workpeople to go and work for him in the same branch of the industry? He would not be taking workmen away from that branch of the industry into some other kind of work, but it would be a movement in the same industry on the part of workmen in order to obtain higher wages.
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member will read my speech I think he will see the answer is quite clearly given there.
  Hon. Members: What was it?
  Mr. Brown: The answer was that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent men going from one job of national importance into another job of national importance.
  Mr. Bevan: That is not an answer. Is an employer liable under the Bill if he sends out a document to a workman or a number of workmen offering higher wages if they will leave their employment and work for him?
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member will not expect me to give an answer at this Box now to a question of that kind without having seen the framework of the actual case.
  Mr. Bevan: This is a very important point, regarded from the angle at which we look at the matter. We regard the whole thing with suspicion. Is it a fact that if an employer, desiring to fulfil a larger bulk of orders and to divert labour from another employer in the same industry, offers inducements of improved conditions, higher wages, a bonus or anything of that sort, such action will make him liable under the Bill? Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that question?
  Mr. Brown: I will reply to it later.
  Mr. White: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his elucidation of this matter. This question of poaching is quite a sufficient reason for the Bill. It would be monstrous if a large number of comparatively small contractors whose work, though in small volume, laid the foundations of very much larger operations of essential work, were having their workers poached, pinched, or whatever the expression is.
  Mr. Buchanan: Is it the hon. Member's view that if a man works for a small employer, and receives a comparatively low wage, another employer should not have the opportunity of taking him away by offering a higher wage?
  Mr. White: Certainly that is not my opinion.
  Mr. Buchanan: Then what do you mean?
  Mr. White: I have said that if this had anything to do with the control of wages I would not support it.
  Mr. Buchanan: That is what it does.
  Mr. White: The whole purpose of this is to see that the energies of anybody who is employed shall not be misdirected. In the coming months, and it may be in the coming years, there will be a great deal of arduous, grim work to be done in the factories and munition works of this country. It is clear that that can be done only on the basis of the freest consultation and co-operation. It would not be tolerable if people were under constraint in regard to hours and wages and not, in the common phrase, getting a fair crack of the whip. If there were any feeling, as there was in the last War, that there was injustice, privilege or abuse, that would result in the disintegration of all our efforts. I believe that the Amendments that the right hon. Gentleman has incorporated in the Bill will justify us in passing it through this House as a Measure which will enable us to co-operate in making the best use of all labour.
  3.43 p.m.
  Mr. Hicks: I do not propose to enter into any imaginative flights as to the consequences of the application of this Bill. I have listened in this House many times to such prophecies about what a Bill could do in certain cases, and in only one
  768
  or two instances have those contingencies which were imagined actually operated. I agree with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell). I think the Minister will have to reply to the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), and I think the answer will have to be that the object of the Bill is to prevent poaching, that the object of the Bill is to prevent the general movement of labour, and that the object of the Bill is to prevent enticement by higher wages. If not, what is it for? Eventually, when you get down to it, that is the general purpose of the Bill.
  I welcome the statement of the Minister that he has consulted with the organised employers and the organised operatives, through their national councils. It will be necessary for consultation of that sort to take place in regard to the application of the Measure. I do not know what some hon. Members may think, but trade unions and employers' organisations are not unimportant in their industries. We have such organisations in our industry, and 90 per cent. of what happens in the industry is carried out on lines which are mutually agreed. We get a number of people who slip through at times, and a number who are anxious to avoid responsibility. In the present situation we have people in various parts of the country who, as soon as they are dressed in a little brief authority, immediately assume that everybody else is under their control. That is a danger that will have to be taken into account. I would ask also that the Departments might have some consideration for those engaged in industry, and that they should not suddenly decide on a thing. I would appeal to Ministers now not to be stampeded by political pressure in this House or outside. The Departments ought not to put in requests that the industry concerned is not able to meet. When we hear of men being asked to work 80 to 90 hours a week, we should remember that it is a physical impossibility for men to continue working those hours, and if they cannot earn enough money without doing so they should be paid at higher rates.
  We shall not withhold giving all the help we can. We are not in this war to lose it; we want to win the war; we do not want the system that we are opposing now to be triumphant, and whatever con-

  769
  tribution we can make in the building industry will be made. But consideration should be given to our problems. There are many relatively wild parts of the country—I am not speaking about some of the nations which are represented here; I am speaking about parts of the country which are relatively uninhabited —and the recruitment of labour there will be very small indeed. Men will have to be taken far away from their homes in order to carry out works in those areas. It is not unreasonable to ask that if a man has to travel a long way to his work he shall be properly compensated. You should not object to providing him with decent sleeping accommodation. When he has to travel for miles standing up, and sometimes to walk for miles, when he has to get lodgings where usually he is not welcome, it is not unreasonable that a man should receive special rates of pay. Then, suppose a local employer or the Minister of Labour wants the man to continue working there and he has an opportunity to get work at home, there should be free opportunity for the man to move about unfettered. I cannot see why, provided that these problems are approached with understanding by the organisations responsible and by the Government, all these difficulties should not be overcome. All that we ask is that respectful attention should be paid to the opinions which are advanced on behalf of the workmen. If we are asking everybody else to play their parts, we should play our part also.
  3.50 p.m.
  Sir Jonah Walker-Smith: The impression left upon my mind, after having listened very carefully to the views expressed by the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), is that he appreciates that this particular method cannot be considered entirely as an entity without consideration for other matters with which he is closely associated. I understand his views in regard to the industry that he so ably represents, and which he does so much to help to administer, but it will generally be agreed that the objects of this Bill, as they are stated by the Minister, are quite unexceptionable. Nobody in this House or elsewhere could have the slightest objection to the general principles that he lays down as being the genesis of this Measure, that is, the necessity for seeing
  770
  that the very fullest use is made of the available labour to secure the production which is required in this national emergency. That clearly expresses the genesis of this Measure. I am a little afraid that the genesis of this Measure savours very much of the principle of compulsion, I will not say conscription, but there are certainly some strong inducements for men to go in certain directions that it is very much akin to compulsion. I am very much afraid that the genesis of that is to be found in the desire of the very large contractors and manufacturers who are in contract with the Government for the supply of their essential needs.
  It is necessary to consider for one moment the circumstances in which these contracts are placed. It is the old custom of the Service Departments that they will not take the trouble to relate their requirements and their demands to the resources of production. In lieu of doing that they content themselves with the selection of a cetrain number of large contractors and manufacturers, and when these large contractors and manufacturers have placed their contracts they leave them to solve the problem, which is really a Government problem, of considering the means of production. Having done that, and having unloaded their own responsibility on to the manufacturers and other contracting bodies they then enter into contracts with them which do not leave any particular incentive with the manufacturer or the contractor either to economise in cost or in the use of labour. They are left free to offer all sorts of inducements to attempt to attract labour from far and wide. They offer travelling allowances, subsistence allowances, lodging allowances and unlimited overtime, and, by various devices of that kind, they attract the labour to their huge works. It is very soon found that that is no solution of their difficulty at all. They are unable to deliver the goods or complete the work within the prescribed time, and then they claim that the remedy for them is not to look to the better efficiency of their works and not to refrain from taking on further additional work in excess of their resources and contracts, but that it is to be found in obtaining more labour. More labour comes to them, and then you get into this vicious circle, that their jobs get over and the manufacturers get overcrowded, the costs pile up, contracts,

  771
  instead of being speeded up, are delayed, labour unrest is caused. We very soon find ourselves in that vicious circle.
  That is the genesis of this demand. It is the demand of the large manufacturers and contractors to have some very strong measure of inducement, amounting almost to compulsion, to get additional labour on to jobs for which they have contracted under these conditions. In the meantime all the smaller manufacturers and contractors are being practically starved out of existence. As they have no further use for their labour, gradually it drifts to these very large works and factories where these high inducements are offered. Let it not be thought for one moment that these large inducements and these large pay packets are to the advantage of the worker. I know that it is not so. A very large amount of that money goes in personal expenses, subsistence allowances and the maintenance of two organisations, and they are fleeced unmercifully in regard to their lodging and maintenance in the places to which they have been attracted. It can by no means be assumed that because the pay is high, or comparatively high, their economic position is improved.
  It is most undesirable that this sort of thing should continue. I can understand the desire of the Service Departments to hand over this very troublesome problem of production to these manufacturers, but it is an extremely undesirable thing to do. To these particular difficulties and inducements in the conditions that already exist we now propose to add another. We propose now to put into the hands of someone, either the officials of the Government Departments or the military authorities this particular instrument which may be used to the very serious disadvantage of industry. This is the way it will work. Many of the smaller contractors and manufacturers will be gradually pushed out of existence. All of this labour will gradually dribble in thousands of little streamlets into this very large reservoir or pool, and the valves from that reservoir will be controlled by somebody, and the stream will be directed to huge servitude works or contracts.
  That will be the position for some considerable time. The question of economy will be thrown to the four winds of heaven. Production will be delayed. Labour difficulties will arise and unrest
  772
  will be created, and in the end, what is to happen? Suddenly these works will come to an end. Either the manufacturer will complete the supplies required, or where there are engineering or other works, these large constructional works will suddenly come to an end. What is to happen then? The men who have been attracted to these places by these inducements, and this poaching method to which the Minister referred, will wish to come back. To what are they to come back? The smaller factories and contractors have been starved out of existence, and there will be nothing whatever to which to come back. They will be derelict and thrown upon industry like so much scrap metal. I saw the disastrous result of this as a consequence of the last War in regard to the building industry, with the result that when we wanted the resources of the building industry for urgent housing schemes they had disappeared and were not available. Every organisation had been dried up and starved to death. I was at a particular place where, in a population of 80,000 people, one engineering firm alone —and I know the condition of the engineering industry well—reduced employment from 30,000 to 5,000 in the twinkling of an eye.
  What is to become of the labour attracted to these large works by these inducements as is being done at the present time? It is thoroughly wrong and unsound to load, overload and servitude these large contractors with more and more orders and contracts under these most unsatisfactory conditions. Instead of a policy of that kind we should attempt to spread the work as far as it is possible—and it is possible to spread it very widely indeed—geographically and proportionately between manufacturer and contractor. In that particular way we should maintain the whole industrial organisation in such a state that, at the end of this period, industry could go on without the serious dislocation that had previously been experienced, and in the meantime production would be increased and labour unrest would cease if only the Treasury would appreciate the dire effects of these conditions of contract. If all these Service Departments would realise how they are standing in their own light in overloading a few contractors and manufacturers with orders far in excess of their means of production; if

  773
  all concerned, under the aegis of the Minister of Labour, for whose activities in these matters I have no words of praise too high, would only secure the fullest co-operation with the trade unions for the purpose of getting the labour properly distributed, then, I think, we could do very much to avoid what, I fear, will be the tragedy of this Measure.
  4.2 p.m.
  Mr. Buchanan: I am sorry that the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) is not present, because I wanted to say a word or two about certain of his remarks. He said that in this House we hear a good deal that is conjecture and that often we are not right. I hold that the average Member of this House must be guided by his experience in the past. What has happened in the past? I would say to the Minister of Labour that as one who has some connection with a trade union I welcome consultation with the trade union movement, but I ask him to remember the experience of the last War and to look a stage ahead. The experience of the last War was that there were other people besides the trade union movement. The right hon. Gentleman has to watch and the trade union movement has to watch that they do not take steps that the men do not desire them to take. In my own city we set up a movement which at times swept the trade union movement out of the road. I do not think that that was good for the trade union movement; but the fact of the matter was that conditions forced such action. Trade union leaders, this House, and even the Trades Union Congress must never be allowed to take away the functions of Parliament. I say that deliberately. I feared that the consultations would result in a Bill being flung at us, and that we should be told that there had been an agreement entered into and that we mattered little. A Member of Parliament who sees and lives amongst his constituents has as valuable a contribution to make to this problem as any other section of the community. I say that about the unofficial movement, as we call it, but in reality, in strength, and in power in certain parts of the country, there is a real movement of that particular type.
  Let me say something about this poaching of labour. There is no man whom I follow more closely than the hon. Member
  774
  for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) on many matters. The hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Sir J. Walker-Smith) I also follow closely because he, from an employer's point of view, has had great experience in the past in negotiations. But, boiled down, what does the argument of the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness mean? He has given us a lecture about what happened in the past to workmen who went to big employers. It is not for the hon. Member to decide whether a workman should go or should not. The workman knows as well as the hon. Member or I that these things happened, and if a workman is prepared to go to a particular job what right have we to step in and stop him? Stripped of all camouflage, the hon. Member's argument was that we had a right to stop workmen from doing what they wished to do.
  Sir J. Walker-Smith: My idea was not to lead them on the ice.
  Mr. Buchanan:It is an arrogani assumption that the hon. Member knows better than the workman. The workman has as much brains as the hon. Member or myself. A man has a trade and knows what he is undertaking. Who is the hon. Member or who am I to tell such a man that he has not brains enough to understand the thing himself. The hon. Member says, "Don't let the man use his brains; I have superior knowledge and will prevent him from doing it." With all respect, I do not agree with the hon. Member. If there is anything wrong it is neither the workman nor the employer who is to blame. Who is to blame? The Government. Who is setting up these big amalgamations? Recall what is happening in Glasgow. The Rolls Royce Company have come there for the first time. I did not like to see the competition that was going on between one town and another to get that company. I thought there was going to be almost a war between the various rival towns and I refused to be a party to the competition. But the Rolls Royce Company have come to the outskirts of Glasgow. There they are building a factory with Government money and Government aid, to employ, I am told, a maximum of 15,000 and a minimum of 8,000 people. It will be a huge factory. Who is doing it? The Government. That factory has to be manned. Then comes the labour. But

  775
  the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness comes along and says to workmen, "You are not to go there, although the Government have got the place." It is nonsense. The theory of this Bill is to stop a workman from leaving one place and going to another in order that his earnings may be increased.
  Do not let it be thought that poaching goes on only in regard to wages. A man works now, say, in Dumbarton. He goes there from Glasgow, 15 miles away. Travelling is long and expensive. He went there first when Dumbarton was busy and Glasgow was slack. Then things become busy in Glasgow. Under this Bill the man is not to get leave to go to work near his home. If he does it may be called poaching by one firm from another. I worked under the last Munitions Act in the heart of the munitions industry. What happened? The Government tried a certain scheme which collapsed entirely. Now they are trying to modify that scheme. I see that the Minister of Labour shakes his head. As I see it, the Government are now trying to say that this poaching from the bigger firm should be stopped. That is a modification of the old Act. In the big cities I do not think the Bill will matter a jot. If the scheme proves to be irksome it will be swept away in 10 minutes, because when trade is booming either the trade union has to function or the men will create their own organisation. But the right hon. Gentleman is making a great mistake in rushing this Bill. However, if he wants it let him have it. I would have allowed things to go on.
  The statements made about taking men from one place to another are a gross exaggeration to anyone who knows the engineering industry intimately. I would have allowed things to go as they are. The Bill is a method of interfering with a workman who wishes to move to some employment that will add not only directly to his wages, but indirectly, through the cost of less travel. In my experience I have found that the reason why a workman has left a job has been nine times out of 10 not on account of wages, but on account of the foreman or some other association with the job. I have worked at a place where the wages
  776
  were high and I have left it to go to a place where the wages were lower, because the conditions of the new job were much better and where the tone of the shop was better. This is a Bill to stop poaching of workmen, if it can be proved to be poaching. It seems to me, however, that it is a trivial Measure and hardly worth while. In so far as certain conditions arise, the workmen will create their own machinery for dealing with it. As far as I am concerned, the Measure can go. The trade union movement has learned its lesson from the past, and I do not think that things will happen as in the past. I do, however, protest against what underlies the attitude of the Minister, the hon. Member for East Birkenhead and the hon. Member who spoke last. They want some kind of machinery to prevent the ordinary workman from having the right of ordinary movement, to which he is entitled.
  4.13 p.m.
  Sir Ralph Glyn:The House will agree with a great deal of what the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has said, but I see no justification for assuming that there is anything in the Bill that will restrict the freedom of the worker, if he can put up a good case. On the other hand, there has been recently a great deal of inconvenience and misery caused to workers who have moved without sufficient knowledge of the conditions; in the place to which they were going. I am sure we all feel that at this time there must be the utmost co-operation between the employers and the representatives of organised labour, which can only function sufficiently well if there is complete confidence between the two sides. We know that many of the labour leaders are fighting a rearguard action with the extreme element, who are doing all they can to undermine them.
  There is one point to which I would draw attention, and that is in regard to the selection of inspectors. I do not think that anybody in this country particularly likes inspectors, but as it is essential to have them, a great deal of the smooth working of the Act will be due to the type of persons chosen. The inspectors will have great power, and it is right that they should have, but if they exercise those powers in a thoughtless way they will produce a great deal of trouble.

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  Another matter to which I should like to refer, and to which, I think, the Minister will be able to give a satisfactory reply, is that when circumstances exist which make it necessary for the regional commissioners to function in any area, I should like an assurance that they will not misuse their powers under the Act. It would be disastrous if any individual in a particular area tried to usurp the powers of the Act, which is using the normal machinery between the employers and the workmen. It is essential that in these times, when lighting restrictions and one thing or another make for ineffieciency in working, there should be a great deal of give and take and the closest possible collaboration. I feel sure that hon. Members opposite appreciate the fact that certain employers are trying to carry out their work efficiently, that they welcome this Bill and that they want to work in conjunction with the trades unions. It is only by such co-operation for meeting the difficulties inherent in the present situation that we shall be able to get through our troubles.
  There is one further matter which is extremely pressing at the moment, and that is the standing down of large numbers of men from now on for the next three months while factories are being converted from peace-time to war-time use. This is a most serious problem, and one that is exercising the minds of a good many of us who have such workers living in our constituencies. I am faced with something between 3,000 and 4,000 workmen who will be stood down from their normal work while the factories where they are normally employed are transferred from peace to war purposes. It would be a disaster if these skilled men, who know how to handle the plant, are not available when the plant is ready for war purposes. The great problem is how they are to get through the next three months, what can be done to help them and to give them confidence that they are to have good and proper conditions, and how far such work as does offer may be spread out among the men who are temporarily standing down. In looking into these matters one realises that they can only be got over by the utmost good will between employers and workers.
  We may see in this Bill the foundation of something which, I hope, will endure, not turning the House of Commons into a mere reflection of the Trades Union
  778
  Congress, but making it possible to recognise in this House more fully than before the rights of the workers and the difficulties of the employers, so that we get on successfully by our combined efforts. If we can carry that feeling forward into the difficult days that are ahead of us we shall owe a great debt to the Minister of Labour and those who have collaborated with him in amending this Bill and making it a much better piece of legislation.
  4.18 p.m.
  Mr. Bevan: I shall not occupy the time of the House for many minutes, because a great deal of what I intended to say has already been said by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). I should like to ask the Minister to be as frank with the House as the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) was. The hon. Member for East Woolwich has, I regret, left the Chamber. I wish he would drop the habit of coming here to deliver Olympian addresses, and then leaving us. We are entitled to fuller collaboration than that with which he furnishes us. He said that the purpose of the Bill is to prevent inflated wages being paid. If that be so, it would be far better to call it a control of wages Bill than a control of labour Bill. Why are workers diverted from one works to another? It is usually because the works to which the workers transfer are more attractive. Why are they more attractive? Generally, because the conditions are better, or because the works are nearer to the homes of the men, or because the wages offered are higher, or because the employer is more agreeable. This mobility of labour which is being complained about is very largely the only effective leverage which the worker has not only in order to improve his wages, but to influence the kind of employer for whom he works.
  The punishment for an employer who does not treat his workers properly is for him to be deprived of his workers, and the only way in which a body of workers can exercise any control at all over the conditions of their employment is by their being able to punish the employer with the possibility of being stripped of his labour. Therefore, immediately you render labour immobile by legislation of this kind you are making the employer more effective, giving him greater control

  779
  over his workers and preventing the workers from improving their conditions. I was smiling rather cynically during the speech of the Minister. I remember what happened on a former occasion, when it was not a case of labour being too mobile but of labour being too rigid. We had a discussion about the rigidity of labour. The Employers' Federation issued a leaflet in which they attacked the whole insurance system of the country because it created such favourable conditions for labour that a workman could prefer to remain unemployed in some areas rather than go to other parts of the country where work was available. They said that the insurance conditions must be made less favourable in order to bring about the rigidity of labour. Now that labour is not rigid but unintelligibly mobile, it does not know where its best interests lie, and so we have a Bill to make labour more rigid. It helps the employer for labour to be as mobile as possible. Capital can be as mobile as it likes, but it is indiscreet for labour to be mobile in the same way. There is a lot of humbug and cant behind the whole of it. During the last 15 to 20 years the labour market has favoured the employer as against the worker, with the result that wages have been depressed all over the country and Great Britain has now fallen in the scale in regard to the standard of wages. Lots of countries are much better than we are at the present time.
  I remember an answer given from the Government Bench some time ago, but we have slipped back since then, because men in the mining areas and skilled engineers have been taking far less in wages than some unskilled labour, because the labour market has favoured the employer as against the worker. But there was no legislation to render the employer less mobile. No hon. Member opposite said that the time had arrived to introduce legislation in order to create more favourable conditions for the worker. No, his immobility at that moment was regarded as a national asset. Now, when we are faced with the fact that the labour market is likely to favour the worker, we get a Bill in order that the worker may not exploit these circumstances to his advantage. It really is humbug to bring this Bill forward. Far better that the Bill was called exactly what it does.
  780
  I was very young when the last War started but I reached years of discretion very quickly. I remember that during the last War—the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) will confirm this—the Miners' Federation made an offer to the employers—Mr. Robert Smillie made the offer—that if the coalowners would guarantee that they would not raise the price of coal, they would not exploit the war emergency: the miners would not demand an increase of wages. That offer was turned down by the coalowners with the result that coal prices soared and the miners spent many anxious and unavailing struggles in trying to catch up with the increase in price. We had just about caught up with it when the War came to an end. We know from a statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that at the present time the national emergency is being exploited by the employers. We have been told from the Government Bench that excessive profits have been made in Government contracts in industries everywhere as a result of the fact that the demand for capital is greater than the supply, and the employers have taken advantage of the circumstances. But when labour tries to do the same thing we have a Bill brought in to stop it. That is all labour is trying to do.
  We should look upon the Bill a little more favourably if there were effective restrictions upon profiteering. I do not want to add strictures upon my own colleagues, but I would say to the trade unions that before they co-operated with this Bill they should have made that a condition of their co-operation, otherwise their co-operation with the Government will not receive the endorsement of their members. It will be impossible to honour the provisions of this Bill if excessive profits are being made by employers and the workers are at the same time being clamped down from having any increase in wages. It is not enough to receive the endorsement of the trade union machine if that endorsement is not spiritually endorsed by the members of the trade unions. I remember very vividly a circumstance in the year 1915. There was a stoppage in South Wales and we got a 171 ½ per cent. increase in wages. It was an unofficial stoppage. There had been some kind of gentleman's understanding, but it was broken in a year because conditions became so intolerable that shop steward movements were

  781
  started, and from the bottom arose a movement which blew up the thin crust of agreement at the top.
  We are not entitled, in my opinion, to give the Government these powers until there has been effective control over profiteering. It is not conducive to national unity, and does not create the wholesome atmosphere in the country. It brings us under suspicion if we agree to legislation of this sort which prevents labour from taking advantage of circumstances favourable to itself and, at the same time, permits employers all over the country to exploit the national emergency and make such huge profits that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to put special measures or taxation upon them in his Budget. I think that the wisest thing the Minister can do is to withdraw the Bill because the effect of it is going to be very bad. Always in the history of this country when circumstances have favoured the under-dog, legislation has been brought forward to prevent him from taking advantage of it. The last occasion was just after the plague. I believe there is an incident about this in "Lorna Doone," where Jan Ridd is fined £10 for paying his labourer more money than the magistrates permit.
  Now we are having the same kind of legislation again. In this Bill, the employers are told beforehand that if they pay higher wages than those agreed upon between the unions and the employers, it will be regarded as an inducement and will be a punishable offence. In this Bill, the Government are trying to put a ceiling to wages, but they are putting no ceiling to profits. Such unfair legislation will do more damage to the national morale than anything else that could be done. The Minister of Labour ought to withdraw the Bill until he is able to say that, if we are to make a great national effort, no one, be he employer or workman, will take advantage of the circumstances. This kind of unequal legislation, which leaves the employer free and ties the hands of the workman, is bound to create a very unpleasant atmosphere in the country.
  4.31 p.m.
  Mr. Viant:One hon. Member opposite took exception to the statement made by an hon. Member on this side that some employers are already taking an undue
  782
  advantage of the workers and somewhat reducing their standards of living. Only yesterday, I received from a constituent a letter informing me that the whole of the public employés of a council in the neighbourhood of London had been told that they were to do their eight and a-half hours ordinary work and then three and a-half hours extra work on air-raid precautions, with no extra pay. I mention this in order that the hon. Member opposite may appreciate some of the reasons why apprehension is already arising in the minds of the workers. When the Bill was introduced in the House, I felt that a large number of hon. Members opposite were unable to understand the reason we were offering opposition to the Bill. I agree that to an ordinary person reading the Bill, there does not appear to be a great deal in it, but those of us who had some experience of the last War know the dangers that arise.
  During part of the last War, it happened to be my misfortune to sit repeatedly as assessor on the Munitions Tribunal at Caxton Hall. I think I can safely say that the majority of the complaints that were brought before that tribunal were of the following nature. Men and women refused to go to the factories at the stated time to start work and absented themselves for days on end because they were tied to an employer and subjected to the rule of a foreman or forewoman who was imposing tyrannical conditions on them. This had an adverse effect on the productive industry of the country. Again, it was not an uncommon thing to find that men and women refused to go to the factories to work because they were not satisfied with the wage they were receiving and were compelled to travel unduly long distances, but under the Munitions Act, they were forbidden to leave their employer and seek another one. In this Bill, enlightened trade unionists see those potentialities. We appreciate, and I want the House to appreciate, that if we are to win through, we can do so only by the good will of all concerned, and if there is any attempt, even by the leaders of the trade unions, to accept conditions that are irksome to the workers, the workers will do precisely as they did in 1915, 1916 and 1917—that is, form their own shop stewards movement and defy the conditions laid down by the trade unions.

  783
  Let us be careful. Let us not make a mistake. We find repeatedly that, in order to appease certain non-federated factories, concessions have to be made, and at this moment I would hazard a guess that the proposals for this Bill emanated from the federated employers. I have no doubt about that. I know quite well that when trade is busy the federated employers are always cursing the non-federated employers because of the advertisements they see in the newspapers offering a halfpenny or one penny more than the federated employers are prepared to give. The federated employers, and the Ministry of Labour, have to appreciate that the trade unions fix a minimum wage, but that that minimum wage is accepted by the federated employers as a maximum wage, and no matter what exceptional ability an employé has, he gets the same wage as others. The non-federated employer invariably says to a man with exceptional ability, "I will give you 2d. or 3d. an hour more." The man gets it, and is entitled to it.
  Some of us feel that we want to persuade the Minister of the evils of the Bill and appeal to him to try to avoid the pitfalls, and at the same time we feel that we want to vote against the Bill. The Minister has already suggested that certain Amendments are to be offered. As the Bill stands at present, I shall vote solidly against it, even if I did so alone, because of the knowledge I have of the evils arising from such circumstances in the last War. But I am hoping that if the Minister is given the Bill, with the Amendments that have been mentioned, he will administer it, and see that his Department administers it, in a reasonable and tolerant spirit in order that we shall not have anything in the nature of a revolution inside the trade union movement. I will give the House an illustration of what has been happening. This is a Bill to control employment, but it could easily be termed a Bill to control wages. For that purpose, the Bill need not have been introduced, for the Minister could have resurrected the Statute of Labourers, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) referred. Precisely the same principles are embodied in this Bill, minus the Amendments. The Minister of Labour has already been controlling labour considerably during the last
  784
  12 months. What has been happening? I hope we are not to have this kind of control in the future. Men needed for the erection of huts at Newton Abbot have been sent from the north-east coast, while men who were unemployed in Devon have been sent to Cheshire and men have been sent from London to Cheshire, no regard whatever being given to the distance from their homes or the expenses incurred. If the Minister is going to control labour along those lines, we shall need to have a new Minister of Labour.
  Mr. E. Brown: If I had had the powers under the Bill that is exactly what would not have happened.
  Mr. Viant: The right hon. Gentleman's Department sent the men. I give this as a standing illustration of the ineptitude of the Ministry of Labour in spite of the advice of the London district office of the Amalgamated Society of Woodworkers. I hope it will not be repeated. [Interruption.] You have the power because you paid the men's railway fares and they went there under your direction. You had power to send them to Cheshire rather than to Devon. I stand by the statements that I have made. I have no reason to withdraw them. There is a feeling of apprehension in the minds of trade unionists throughout the country in respect of the Bill. We shall await the Amendments and we hope that, having been accepted by the representatives of the Trades Union Congress, they will be acceptable to the House, and will give a guarantee to trade unionists that nothing in the shape or form of conscription of labour is to be embodied in the Bill.
  4.43 p.m.
  Mr. David Adams: The views that I hold on this Measure have been admirably expressed by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) and the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). As originally introduced, it was, in my judgment, and in that of the workers on the North-East Coast and in County Durham whom I have consulted upon it, undiluted industrial conscription. No one was more astonished than I was to learn that the Trades Union Congress had in principle agreed to it, but the word "principle," like the phrase "public interest," when used by the Government, requires some other definition than that which appears in the Oxford Dictionary or

  785
  in common parlance. It is a singular comment upon the Minister's statement of this marvellous degree of agreement that he should have found it necessary to introduce new Amendments which will so whittle down the realities of the Measure. There are employers in Durham who have already taken advantage of the current belief in certain employing circles that they have control of labour already. A constituent of mine interviewed me at the week-end and told me that he had advised his employers, who were paying him £2 a week, that he was offered £3 to work in Civil Defence, and he was informed that he would be under penalties if he left his employment, as mining was a scheduled occupation. That sort of thing ought to be brought to a full stop, and it certainly indicates that protection is required.
  I fail to see the necessity for the Measure. A magnificent illustration was given by the Amalgamated Engineering Union, the aristocrats of the trade union world, with a membership of 380,000, who have agreed to dilution. There are certain undertakings, but they were given prior to the last War when they assented to dilution. I believe the spirit of the industrial workers is so unanimous as to the necessity of defeating Nazism that the trade union movement would have given all the labour that the Minister requires without anything in the nature of compulsion. I am satisfied that if fair wages and proper conditions were established and there was an undertaking by the House that wages would rise in harmony with the cost of living, there would not be the slightest difficulty in obtaining skilled or unskilled labour in any direction and in any quantity that might be required.
  We have heard a good deal about poaching. After all, there is only a limited amount of labour required in any particular area or in any particular industry. The fear that there is going to be some great exodus of labour from one area to another because of dazzling prizes held out by unscrupulous employers is, in my judgment, unjustifiable. I cannot recollect, except in very isolated cases, any such industrial difficulty during the last campaign. We are entitled to ask this question, which has been put to me by my constituents. Everyone knows that there will be an improvement in the
  786
  return to capital. Certain shares are rising rapidly on the Stock Exchange. Is it unjust to ask that labour shall have some slight advantage if it gives its concentrated attention to the tasks the nation has delegated to it? It seems to me reasonable that that should be so. There is another question that we are entitled to ask. What of the mass of lowly-paid labour whose wages are on the poverty line? At this time of great expenditure and of necessity for improving the quality of labour, what is the Ministry of Labour going to do about that class? That is a query which I hope the Minister will answer.
  With regard to courts of referees, there have been numerous cases of discontent in the County of Durham because there has not been a representative on a court of the trade to which the applicant before the court belonged. The Act states that the persons constituting these courts are to be called up from the panel and that members of a court need not necessarily belong to the trade which is under review. When a recent Measure was being considered in which this question arose, I endeavoured to secure the passage of a Clause stipulating that where possible a person belonging to a trade similar to that of the applicant should be on the court of referees. The Minister then resisted that proposal. Will he now with the great powers which he has stretch a point to deal with this grievance? Will he see that in the case of a mining district, for example, at least one member of the court of referees shall be a miner and that the same thing shall apply to engineering and other great trades? That is a reasonable request. If the Minister would assent to that proposition I can say that, as far as the County of Durham is concerned, he will remove an important cause of discontent among those who have to go before these courts.
  We are advised that under this Measure trade union organisations and employers' organisations will be consulted. May I ask whether their advice will be taken by the Minister, and, if it is not taken, is there any remedy? I also desire to ask whether if consent to engagement or re-engagement is refused, the worker will be offered employment at his own trade? That is a reasonable request. There is a fear that alternative employment might

  787
  be offered in some industry other than that to which the man is accustomed. I hope the Minister will make a mental note of these questions and deal with them, because they are very important, at all events in my constituency, and I am sure elsewhere. In reference particularly to mining, I have been asked to bring this point before the House. As the House may know, this form of labour, if it is to be stereotyped in the mines, is largely unskilled. It is a melancholy fact that a great deal of the labour to which a young man may have to serve a period of five or six years, from the age of 14 or 15 up to 20 or 21, is only unskilled labour at the end of the period. Will some effort be made by the Ministry to obviate that state of things by introducing some system of apprenticeship?
  At present it is, I assure the Minister, a very great grievance that a young man who has done all that is humanly possible to learn pit practice and the application of safety first principles, and who attends night classes and endeavours to improve himself, may at the end of his so-called apprenticeship, at the age of 20 or 21, be dismissed from the mine without any remedy, without any compensation and without the promise of any alternative employment. Will that cease and will the Minister seriously consider creating a system of apprenticeship in mining just as there is in engineering and other trades? Road-making has recently been made a craft. Asphalting is a craft and apprentices to it work under stipulated conditions and have rights and privileges which are denied to young men in the mining industry, except in cases where the conditions are remarkably good.
  May I repeat that, as far as my experience goes, industrial labour is burning with enthusiasm to see the end of Nazism on the Continent of Europe? The workers are willing to put forth their maximum effort in this struggle physically, mentally, and, if I may say so, spiritually. At the same time, they ask that the treatment which the Government are meting out to other sections of the community, which we may refer to broadly as the capitalist class, shall equally be meted out to labour. If this is done, I have not the slightest doubt as to the result of the great issue in which we are engaged.
  4.56 p.m.
  Mr. Stephen: I thank the Minister for giving me an opportunity of stating the views of my colleagues and myself on this Measure. A great deal of emergency legislation is being passed and with a lot of it we are in fundamental conflict. We are conscious that many of the problems which are inherent in the present situation are being absolutely neglected in this legislation. As regards this Bill we are fundamentally opposed to it, but the fact that there had been negotiations upon it between the Minister and the organised industrial movement, put us into this position, that if other Members of the House were willing to let it go, we did not feel inclined to challenge that decision. But during this Debate it has become apparent that Members above the Gangway are profoundly disturbed by this Measure. Indeed one hon. Member said he had not the slightest doubt that it was really industrial conscription. It may not be industrial conscription, but in our view it certainly prepares the way for industrial conscription, and the situation in which it will place the workpeople of this country is, to our minds, absolutely unfair and unjustified.
  This is evidently a Bill promoted by the powerful organised employers of the country in view of the present situation. It will limit the rights and opportunities of workpeople in a very cruel way. During periods of slump the workpeople have always had to accept reductions of wages, but when the national situation puts them into a more powerful position, legislation of this kind is introduced to take from them the possibilities which would otherwise be presented to them under the operation of the law of supply and demand. When it is a case of slump hon. Members opposite and the Government say to the workers, "You must not interefere with an economic law." But in this Bill there is interference with what is regarded as an economic law, not to be interfered with in normal times. It may be said that things now are abnormal, but that is no reason why the workpeople should be put into an impossible position.
  The Minister has stated that the Bill has not got any of those features of which we are so suspicious, but that it is largely a Bill to deal with poaching and will apply only to a very limited number of people, such as technical workers. We get so many assurances in connection

  789
  with legislation in this House, but when we come to the experience afterwards, we find that it generally works out quite differently. Indeed, in the Unemployment Insurance Acts you have provision for the employ who leaves his employment without just cause, and the Court of Referees having to see that in that respect he is not unfairly treated, but everyone knows how that has operated and how employés working for employers who have made their conditions miserable are put into the position that they have practically got to go out of a job and then suffer the penalty of six weeks' disqualification. I am not in the least bit satisfied by the fact that the workman will have an appeal to the Court of Referees with regard to his position. Remember that there is a whole lot of people just now working in the country away from their homes, who were compelled to go long distances from their homes during the period of slump, and now, when there may be opportunities for them to get back home again with the prospect of more permanent employment than they have in the district to which they have gone, they will be debarred by the operation of this Measure from taking the chance of getting back to their wives and families. Those people have also been working during this period under very great economic difficulties, because they have had to pay for their lodgings in the district to which they have gone, and they have simply carried on because they were practically compelled to do so.
  There is one thing that I notice in regard to this Bill. A man is not to be allowed to leave his employment. I do not want to put it too strongly, but, generally speaking, the mobility of labour is to be stopped, and the individual is to be tied to his employment. He may be with a bad employer, but he is tied up to that employer, and he is refused the opportunity of taking advantage of the situation and getting work in circumstances that would be much more comfortable to him.
  Mr. E. Brown indicated dissent.
  Mr. Stephen: The Minister shakes his head, but I am confident that this Bill will be passed, and that when it comes into operation I shall be proved to be very largely right in what I am saying in that respect. A man is not guaranteed employment with the employer; he is not guaran-
  790
  teed his job. He works with an employer, and he may have the opportunity of going elsewhere where there is a prospect of longer employment, but he will be debarred by this Bill from taking advantage of the possibility of that other employment. We refuse to give him any guarantee of permanent employment. Unless the Minister is prepared to give us an assurance of permanent employment for the workpeople of the country, I myself and my colleagues are prepared to divide the House on this Bill. The fact that so many hon. Members above the Gangway have said that they would like to divide against the Bill has given us the encouragement to divide the House ourselves on this Measure, which is an attempt upon the liberties of the working people of the country, an attempt which may have the most far-reaching consequences.
  5.5 p.m.
  Mr. E. Brown: I think the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), would much prefer to be in this country than in some of the lands where employment may be guaranteed. When the hon. Member thinks over the implications of what he has just said, I believe he will think more kindly of this Measure and of those who, having surveyed the field of experience in 1914-18, have agreed that some method of orderly arrangement in order to get the maximum effort in this crisis is absolutely vital. The hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant) and other hon. Members have said that this Bill is brought in at the desire of the federated employers. Let any hon. Member who is now full of suspicion of this Measure do a very simple thing in the next week or two, in his leisure time, if he has any. Let him go into the Library of this House, take down from the shelves the reports of the Barnes Commission on the Forces of Industrial Unrest in War-time, issued in 1917, and read, not only the reports, but the evidence, and he will understand why the Government, having surveyed the difficulties of that time, have sought to proceed along this modest, but, I believe, effective way.
  The hon. Member for West Willesden put his finger on another point and talked about non-federated employers who pay higher wages. I could not help reflecting over my experience during the last four years at the Ministry of Labour and about the number of non-federated employers,

  791
  of whom I have heard, who pay less wages than the federated employers. I could not help thinking that the hon. Member was not doing a good service to those whom he serves by putting in too big a plea for the non-federated employer, for what is the reason for non-federation except unwillingness to bind the non-federated employer to the conditions agreed between the unions on the one hand and the federated employers on the other? Indeed, in the case of one new industry, that of road transport, I was able to persuade this House only just over a year ago to take action to compel those who did not observe the conditions to observe them. I think that, when the hon. Member reflects on that passage in his speech, he will see that that argument could be pressed very much to the detriment of organised labour.
  The fact is that the case against this Bill is largely unreal. We are proposing a Measure to make, by consultation, orders applicable to certain employers and certain workmen, and it will probably be the fact, since the workers will be highly skilled, that their wages will be high, and, therefore, the argument put forward by the hon. Member about low wages does not arise. The fact is that any reflection on those very interesting reports from every one of the nine districts engaged in munition work in the last War shows that it is not to the permanent interest of labour to have feverish, spasmodic, particular advances by particular employers for their own purposes. The real interest both of the employers and of the country, and most of all of labour, is that the machinery between the unions and the employers should grow and strengthen, so that steady gains may be achieved, gains that will last.
  Mr. E. Smith: And have prices controlled.
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows that the Prime Minister has made a statement about that and that there is a Ministry of Food which has great powers. I will ask to be excused from being diverted into a discussion on that issue now, for the Prime Minister has made plain that this matter is being dealt with.
  Mr. Viant: The right hon. Gentleman has replied to me with regard to non-federated employers. My point was in
  792
  respect to wages and not a defence of non-federated employers. I was referring to the manner in which the federated employers appeal to the Ministry in order that they might maintain a minimum wage which is accepted as a maximum.
  Mr. Brown: I put the other side of the shield, namely, that the main reason for non-federation is reluctance to abide by agreed conditions. That is entirely against the best interests of the workers.
  Mr. G. Macdonald: They are blackleg employers?
  Mr. Brown: Certainly.
  Mr. Charles Brown: And you let them get away with it.
  Mr. E. Brown: The hon. Member must not say that. We have done all we can in recent years to make fair protective agreements between employers and employed, and I have taken the view that in the last resort the State may have to step in. The hon. Member knows that it is easy to put up a particular case, but not so easy to find a full solution for the whole field of industry. There have been industries where we have taken action and that experience will stand us in good stead. The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) rightly pointed out the lessons of the last War, and I was impressed by the point put by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). Anyone rereading the evidence given at that time will know that one of the causes of the strength of the unofficial movement was the lack of some machinery of the kind provided in this Bill. "Orders which people did not understand were issued without consultation. It is because I realise the depth of the feeling that existed then and the fear of non-co-operation, that we have proceeded in this Bill along the lines proposed. Every Member will agree that the trade unions in 1939 have a greater weight in the collective machinery of industry than they have ever had. That is my answer to the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. David Adams). I share with the hon. Member for Gower the view that advantage ought not to be taken of the present conditions to depress wages or conditions. Indeed, the machinery of consultation between the organised responsible bodies concerned is the best way to see that, in the discussions between the two sides of the industry,

  793
  safeguards of that kind are maintained and fair results achieved.
  One or two of the points put in the Debate have seemed to me a little unreal. My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Sir J. Walker-Smith) put the case of the large factory and the small, and the hon. Member for Gorbals put it in another way. There are two sides to this problem of production. For some kinds of production the large-scale unit is essential, while in other kinds of production it is not essential. If a small unit is suitable for the production of a particular thing it should be used, and it has been my policy for the last four years in this case to take the job to the man rather than the man to the job. I can assure my hon. Friend that he has my whole-hearted support, because that is the policy I have preached as Minister of Labour to my colleagues in the Service Departments from the beginning. He must know, however, representing as he does Barrow, that there are certain productions for war purposes that need large-scale production units. I assure him that we will not overlook the point that in this period of readjustment, when small units are losing their normal channels of production, they should get their chance to swing over to meet the necessities of the Ministry of Supply and the Air Ministry and that they are not shut out of the total view of the national needs for production. I found my hon. Friend's speech refreshing and powerful, and I did not find any contradiction between it and the point of view put by the hon. Member for Gorbals.
  The hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. White) put a point about aliens. Leaving out the aliens who failed to pass the scrutiny of the Home Office, aliens fall broadly into two groups. The first consists of those who have been here for a number of years and are free to take any employment they can get. The second group consists of refugees who are subject to the provision that they do not enter employment. With regard to the litter group, it is proposed that they should now be allowed to take employment subject to the Minister's consent. That can be done apart from this Bill, but the Bill will aid me.
  Mr. White: Will they have to go to the Employment Exchanges?
  Mr. Brown: They will make application to the nearest exchange in the usual way. The question whether restrictions will be imposed in future with regard to their taking employment is under consideration, but it may turn out to be the case that for the time being no such restrictions are necessary. We shall have to weigh the evidence when we have analysed the large number of cases and do our best to get a solution that is fair to them and advantageous to the national effort.
  Mr. G. Griffiths: I hope the Minister will not allow these aliens to take jobs when there are thousands of capable men over 45 years of age able to take them. I have same chaps in my division who have no work, and I do not want aliens to get jobs before them.
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member will read my Second Reading speech he will see that I share his view. I laid down clearly that no action would be taken about aliens which would give them an advantage over the British worker. The British worker must, of course, come first in the national effort. I have answered the point about wages, and I would add a word about the mobility of labour. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) was making, in his usual attractive way, what was really a debating point, because it is not the intention to make labour rigid at all.
  Mr. Bevan: Is it improper to make a debating point in the House of Commons?
  Mr. Brown: I have made no such charge, but I would point out that there are debating points which are mere debating points and debating points which have a relation to the real problem we are discussing. The hon. Member asked for it. He laid down that it was the object of the Bill to make labour rigid. Nothing of the kind. One of the main purposes of the Bill will be to get mobility, to get the right labour for the right jobs, and so I have truly described that part of his speech as a debating point.
  I think the House may be assured, after the discussions we have had, and with the machinery that is being set up, that this Bill cannot be, as the hon. Member for Camlachie described it, a Bill for industrial conscription. It has no relation whatever to industrial conscription.

  795
  If it had I should not be here moving the second Reading— [Interruption] —I would not—and certainly those who are co-operating in the drafting of the Orders and who ask to have their share in the statutory power would do no such thing. As we work the machinery I am confident that we shall avoid the troubles which caused so much industrial unrest in the last War. From the beginning we shall have the advantage that those who are really responsible, whether as employers or employés, or their organisations, will
  know what is proposed in draft and will make their own contributions in the course of consultations which will take place. Then a report will come to the House and the House will know, if the Minister differs from that report, the reasons why he differs. I think the House can be reassured about the Bill, and I ask hon. Members now to give it a Second Reading.
  Question put, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  The House divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 1.

  Division No. 298.]

  AYES.

  [5.24 p.m.

  Acland, Sir R. T. D.

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Erskine-Hill, A. G.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

  Evans, Colonel A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Lucas, Major Sir J. M.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Adamson, Jennie L (Dartford)

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  MaeAndrew, Colonel Sir C. Q.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Everard, Sir William Lindsay

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Albery, Sir Irving

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Foot, D. M.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (lsle of Wight)

  Ammon, C. G.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Fyte, D. P. M.

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Assheton, R.

  Gardner, B. W.

  MeKie, J. H.

  Astor, viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Magnay, T.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Gibson, R. (Greenook)

  Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Beamish Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Beauohamp, Sir B. C.

  Goldie, N. B.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Beaumont, H. (Batley)

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R.

  Medlioott, F.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Woreester)

  Milner, Major J.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Montague, F.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Han. J.

  Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Donoaster)

  Boulton, W. W.

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

  Brabner, R. A.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Morrison, G. A. (Seottish Unlv's.)

  Bran, Sir W.

  Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Broad, F. A.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir o. H.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

  Hannah, l. C.

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Owen, Major G.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Bull, B. B.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan.

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

  Peake, O.

  Burke, W. A.

  Hicks, E. G.

  Peters, Dr. S. J.

  Buteher. H. W.

  Higgs, W. F.

  Pethick-Lawrenee, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Cape, T.

  Hogg, Hon. Q. MeG.

  Piekthorn, K. W. M.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Cassells, T.

  Holmes, J. S.

  Pym, L. R.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Hopkin, D.

  Quibell, D. J. K.

  Christie, J. A.

  Horabin, T. L.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Clarry, Sir Reginald

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Colfox, Major Sir W. P.

  Hunter, T.

  Rethbene, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Colville, Rt. Hon. John

  Isaacs, G. A.

  Remer, J. R.

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Jackson, W. F.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Croft. Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

  Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

  Ridley, G.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Cross, R. H.

  Kerr, Colonel C. l. (Montrose)

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.)

  Rosbotham, Sir T.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

  Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Kirby, B. V.

  Russell. Sir Alexander

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovll)

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Russell. R. J. (Eddisbury)

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Salt, E. W.

  Dugdale, Captain D. L.

  Lathan, G.

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Duggan, H. J.

  Leaeh, W.

  Sandeman, Sir N. S.

  Duncan, J. A. L.

  Lee, F.

  Sanderson, Sir F. B.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Leech, Sir J. W.

  Schuster, Sir G. E.

  Ede, J. C.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

  Scott, Lord William

  Edge, Sir W.

  Lewis, O.

  Shinwell, E.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

  Liddall, W. S.

  Simpson, F. B.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Snadden, W. MoN.

  Thorne, W.

  Waterhouse Captain C.

  Somervoll, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

  Thornton-Kemley, C. N.

  Webbe, Sir W. Harold

  Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor)

  Thurtle, E.

  White, H. Graham

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Wiekham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

  Touohe, G. C.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fit, E.)

  Train, Sir J.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitehin

  Storey, S.

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Walker, J.

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partiek)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Ward, Irem M. B. (Walltind)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Major Sir James Edmondson and Mr. Munro.

  NOES.

  Maxton, J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES

  Mr. McGovern and Mr.Campbell Stephen.

  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committe of the Whole House for To-morrow— [Captain Waterhouse.]

  CONTROL OF EMPLOYMENT [MONEY].
  Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
  [COLONEL CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]
  Resolved,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to confer on the Minister of Labour powers with respect to the control of employment during the present emergency, and for purposes connected with the matter aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the expenses incurred for the purposes of the said Act by the said Minister." — (King's Recommendation signified.) — [Mr. Ernest Brown.]
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

  ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  PATENTS, DESIGNS, COPYRIGHT AND TRADE MARKS (EMERGENCY) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [COLONEL CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]
  Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  CLAUSE 4. — (Effect of war on grant of patents and registration of designs and trade marks.)
  5.38 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Major Lloyd George): I beg to move, in page 7, line 31, after "refuse," to insert:
  "to take, or suspend the taking of, any proceedings on or in relation to."
  This Amendment relates to Sub-section (3), which has been reviewed and we are prepared to put in the words which stand on the Paper, to make it clear that the Comptroller can suspend proceedings on an application of an enemy for a patent, or for the registration of a design or trade mark, without going to the length of refusing the application altogether.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 7, line 32, leave out the first "or," and insert "of." — [Major Lloyd George.]
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  CLAUSE 6. — (Power of Comptroller to extend time limits having regard to war circumstances.)
  Major Lloyd George: I beg to move, in page 8, line 40, to leave out "or will be."
  Hon. Members will see in Sub-section (1, a) the words:
  " that the doing of the act within the time so limited was or will be prevented by a person's being on active service or by any other circumstances.''
  We think it better, more convenient and satisfactory to determine this question —as to a person being prevented from doing

  799
  the act in question by circumstances arising out of the war—only after the time for doing the act has expired, and not before it has been reached.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Major Lloyd George: I beg to move, in page 9, line 21, to leave out from "proceeding," to "ceased," in line 22, and to insert "has."
  This Amendment is of a drafting character, proposed purely in order to make it clear that the time for doing the act can be extended, notwithstanding that application for the extension is made after the non-performance of the act has caused the patent, registration or proceeding in question, to cease, or become void or invalid, or be treated as abandoned.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Remaining Clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.

  UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [COLONEL CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]
  Clauses 1 to 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  CLAUSE 5. — (Purposes for which emergency statutes may be made.)
  5.41 p.m.
  Sir Arthur Salter: I beg to move, in page 4, line 8, at the end, to insert, "or is made with his consent."
  This is a very small Amendment, which I hope the Government will be able to accept. Paragraph (d) provides for suspending or modifying certain of the statutes with regard to residence, and it adds a complete protection with regard to the individual holder that
  "no such suspension or modification shall be made unless it is in the interests of the holder thereof."
  My Amendment does not in any way impair that protection; but it gets over what I am told is sometimes a technical
  800
  difficulty, that even where modification is reasonable, and even acceptable to the person or persons affected, it cannot be done without long delay and difficulty in the absence of a provision to enable these powers to be applied if the holder consents, even though it should be, technically and legally, against his interests.
  543 p.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): I am not sure that these words are necessary, but I appreciate that the hon. Member the junior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) has cases in mind which he thinks might not be covered unless the words are inserted. They, clearly, would do no harm, and might do good. I would only say that if these words are inserted it should be clearly provided that the consent should be in writing and in proper form. With that proviso, I have no objection to the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  CLAUSE 6. —(Manner of making emergency statutes.)
  5.44 p.m.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I beg to move, in page 6, line 4, after "College," to insert:
  "or, if within fourteen days after it has been made the visitor has neither approved nor declined to approve it, by the Lord Chancellor."
  I do not think it necessary to explain what are the functions of a visitor. It is sufficient to say that for the purposes of this temporary alteration of statutes, which is the main object of the Bill, the visitor's consent is necessary. Visitors are of various kinds. For instance, Lord Baldwin is a visitor of various colleges, and it might well happen that he would be out of England for a considerable period. Several bishops are visitors, and there might be vacancies owing to demises. There are hereditary visitors, and there might be, therefore, a case of an infant visitor. It is clear that there should be power to appoint deputies. The simplest method seems to me to be to provide that where a visitor is not available the Lord Chancellor should be able to give the necessary consent.
  5.46 p.m.
  The Attorney-General: For the reasons given by my hon. Friend, I suggest that the Committee should agree to the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Remaining Clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY ACT, 1939.
  5.47 p.m.
  The Minister of Supply (Mr. Burgin): I beg to move,
  "That the Draft Order entitled the Ministry of Supply (Transfer of Powers) (No. 2) Order, 1939, presented to this House on 13th September, be approved."
  The Essential Commodities Reserves Act, 1938, dealt with three things: fertilisers, food and petroleum. Fertilisers have been transferred to the Minister of Supply, food has been transferred to the Minister of Food, and it will be for the convenience and simplification of Government business if the only remaining item under the heading of essential commodities is transferred to the Minister of Supply. This Order has nothing to do with the distribution or control of the use of petroleum.
  5.48 p.m.
  Mr. Shinwell: Before we pass this Order, to which we offer no special objections, I should like to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman. As I understand, the powers in the Essential Commodities Reserves Act relating to control are to pass from the Board of Trade to the right hon. Gentleman's Department. So far as actual production of petroleum in this country is concerned, I would like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman's Department is to be responsible in future. I understand that in regard to distribution he is not responsible. What is to happen in regard to production? If it is to pass to his Department we should like to know whether he proposes to stimulate production. If it is to remain, as at present, under the control of the Secretary for Mines, it is quite a different matter.
  Mr. Burgin: It remains where it is. Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  "That the Draft Order entitled the Ministry of Supply (Transfer of Powers) (No. 2) Order, 1939, presented to this House on 13th September, be approved."
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  EVACUATION.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." — [Captain Waterhouse.]
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Ede:We have during the past few days seen the most remarkable movement of the civil population ever recorded in history, and it is desirable that the House should now have some opportunity of reviewing the circumstances in which the movement took place and the conditions that have been created in the areas that have been evacuated and in the districts to which the priority classes have gone. I think that the House and the country can congratulate themselves upon the general success of the movement, but it cannot be expected that so large a number of people as this could be removed, in circumstances which were very largely voluntary, without there being some misfits and some misadventures. I do not want to spend time in examining individual cases which can properly be adjusted best by the exercise of a little tact and discrimination in the districts where the difficulties have arisen.
  There are, however, a few general observations which it would be desirable to make. I have seen in the Press and have heard at various meetings high praise of the work of the teachers who were concerned in that evacuation, and when I say that I accept that praise on behalf of my profession I can only add that they have lived up to what I expected of them. But as one who saw something of evacuation and reception, I would like, both as an administrator and as a teacher, to pay my highest tribute to all the other people who were engaged with evacuation, and especially those people who were connected with transport. I saw children being evacuated from Surrey on Sunday, 3rd September,

  803
  on my way home from the House. At that time the transport people, both road transport and rail transport, had had three days of this work, and quite frankly I was amazed at the sympathy, tact and consideration shown by men who were obviously tired after hours of duty in handling children and mothers and ensuring their safety. To see a London Passenger Transport conductor chasing a group of children with three different packets of food that had been left behind in the omnibus, and the care that he took to make quite sure that these parcels of food got to their appropriate owners, was an indication of the spirit that was behind everyone who had been associated with this movement. I am in a position that few people are in; I am a member of an administrative body which is both an evacuating and a receiving authority, and I have, therefore, had to give consideration from a practical point of view to the thing at both ends.
  As far as I can see, on the whole the movement of the school children and their reception in the areas have been a far greater success than we could have hoped. There are some causes for complaint. That is admitted. There was one farmer who, on being offered three girls, said, I am not taking girls. I will have one big boy because he can work on the farm." I am quite sure that nobody is going to defend that attitude. These children are not sent out to be drudges in the homes or on the farms to which they have been evacuated. I have no doubt that they will be quite prepared, when approached in a proper way, to do the ordinary things that fall to the lot of any member of a community, but these children are not sent out to save wages, either as domestic servants or as workers in any other capacity. I want to make it quite plain that I believe that the instance I have given is one of the exceptional cases, but I want also to make it clear that I am sure no one is going to defend anyone who attempts to exploit these children.
  There are difficulties with regard to the provision of school places for children. They have been sent into districts where, on the whole, the school accommodation is not the best in the country; they have gone to villages where the schools are in-
  804
  adequate and ill-ventilated, which one would not have justified as places in which schools may have to be worked under the two-shift system. A good modern school, well-ventilated and lighted, probably suffers very little by being used by one group of children from 8 to 12 o'clock, and by another group of children from 12.30 to 4.30, but some of the village schools require a very considerable amount of replenishment of fresh air before the second group of children are introduced, after they have been used for four hours by another group. I am sure that the Board of Education, in conjunction with the local education authorities, will have these difficulties in mind. I was very gratified by the circular issued by the Board of Education with regard to the opportunities for education that will be afforded in the conditions in the countryside. I am certain that the teaching profession will endeavour to carry out the wishes of the President of the Board of Education and to see that the new environment of the children is made the background for an education that must be both realistic and interesting to them in their new circumstances.
  I come to a very different problem—the problem of the evacuated mother with young children, and of the expectant mother. I was myself always sceptical of the ability to carry through what was called in the early days by the Ministries "the mixed bag proposal." It is very difficult—and I say this in the presence of the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) and my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) —on occasion to persuade two women to carry on their domestic duties in the same room. [Interruption.] It may be difficult for two men to carry on their office duties in the same room. But there are human problems involved here that require a very great amount of personal consideration and a spirit of give-and-take if we are to achieve anything like success. I suggest to the Minister that, as soon as possible, he should endeavour to relieve the cottages and the other homes of this difficulty as far as it is possible, and I hope that hon. Members will not think that I am trying to apportion any blame between the evacuated or the receiving population. There may be occasions on which there are faults on both sides, and

  805
  other occasions on which the circumstances may have been too great for human endurance to face. I hope that these people—the expectant mothers and the mothers with young children—will, as far as possible, be billeted in large empty houses on the hostel principle, or that the camps will be used for them in the first place. I am sure that this will be the best way of easing the present situation.
  One has heard amusing instances here. There is an hon. Member of this House who has a daughter, a school teacher, and she has had two billets so far. In the first she was told, "I am so disappointed to have you, because I expected to have one of these mothers, who would have been useful in the kitchen." In the second billet she was told: "I am so glad to have you, because you are so much less trouble than an expectant mother." In all these matters there are problems of human adjustment that represent a new problem that this country has to solve, and I believe that in the main both sides are endeavouring to solve it. I would, however, point out that just as country people do not always understand town people, so town people do not always understand country people. I heard of one good lady in a village—the accent ought to be on the word "good"—who seriously reproved a mother for lamenting that there were no "pictures" in the village. I think it was also the same woman who complained that paraffin lamps were not safe. These are problems that would be very largely avoided if we could put the women who have been evacuated into the larger empty houses, on the hostel principle, or into the camps.
  There are problems of finance also. There is an extraordinary financial problem in the fact that if a mother has a child of school age with her the householder gets 3s. in respect of that child, but if the child goes next door and ceases to be a child in charge of the mother, the householder gets half a guinea. [Hon. Members: "8s. 6d.!"] I am endeavouring to give the official information as far as I have it, and I believe it is half a guinea. [Hon. Members: "For the first child "!] Whether it is half a guinea or 8s. 6d. there is a difference, and the word is going round in some areas that if civil servants are billeted there will be a guinea, and for a land girl the payment
  806
  will be 15s. To put those figures side by side with 5s. and 3s. will in the very near future, if further evacuations of the other classes I have indicated take place, cause very considerable difficulties and jealousies in the various villages.
  One further point. It seems to me to be futile to billet children in a house where the housewife regularly goes out to work, whether in a factory or outside domestic employment. The fact that not as many children have gone out as was expected, ought to enable us to at this stage to make some readjustment of that part of the problem. The billeting authorities, in the main, were urban and rural district councils. They were faced at very short notice with a very big task, and on the whole they rose to it manfully. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Morrison) told me of a case that came to his knowledge, in his responsible position in connection with the London County Council. A certain vicar told the village policeman to put the children on the train and send them back to Paddington. To the astonishment of my right hon. Friend, who is only used to dealing with the Metropolitan Police, that village constable took his orders from the vicar. I hope that in that particular case the chief constable has had his attention drawn to the fact that the police in his area are not under ecclesiastical orders at the moment, and that steps will be taken in any future evacuation to avoid any contretemps of that kind.
  There were some local authorities who professed not to know that they had compulsory powers, and there were a few who, knowing they had them, declined to use the powers against certain persons. I am sure that everyone in this House will say that as far as billeting is concerned, where a district has to accept persons to be billeted, whether they are children, mothers, soldiers or civil servants, the law has to be enforced without regard to distinctions of class or anything else. The common obligation that has been placed on the district must be fairly administered by the billeting authority. There is an appeal committee to which any aggrieved person may go, and the members of that committee should be regarded as the proper persons to settle all questions of dispute.
  I hope that if my words can reach any parents outside this House, I may be

  807
  allowed to beg of them to leave their children where they are in the reception areas. As one who has had some experience in the past of being responsible for children away from their homes, I urge that as far as possible parents should do nothing to create a feeling of home sickness. I hope the parents will realise that in the great majority of cases the persons who have received the children are honestly trying to do their best for them. There is a story in today's "Schoolmaster" of some boys who were billeted in a village. The good man of the house and his wife produced halma, ludo, snakes and ladders and the other games which their children had used. After playing with these games for three quarters of an hour one of the boys said, "These are Cissies' games. Haven't you got a pack of cards." The man produced a pack of cards and after a couple of hours he had to borrow his train fare for the next day. Having had experience of cockney boys, I can well believe that that is true.
  The people have done their very best in most cases to make the children feel at home, and needlessly to upset them is neither in the national interest nor in the interest of the children. I do, how-ever, want to put in a plea for one particular case. I hope that where a doctor says that it would be an advantage to a child in circumstances of illness or otherwise that the parent should see the child, and where the parent cannot afford it—I hope the means test, if any, will not be too severe—free railway vouchers should be given so that the parents can in those circumstances see the child. I am sure that that would do a great deal towards easing the minds of many parents in this matter.
  There have been cases reported to me, as I anticipated there would be, where difficulties with regard to sanitation and water supply are giving concern to the local authorities. I feel sure that the Minister of Health will endeavour to keep in touch with such local authorities and give them all the assistance and advice that is possible. There are various problems relating to finance, especially in regard to some women and children who have gone out. These cases are very urgent, and I hope they will receive the
  808
  sympathetic consideration of those in whose hands they lie.
  There is one final point which more concerns the Board of Education than the Ministry of Health, although both are concerned in it. Owing to the fact that the receiving authorities were in the main not education authorities very little regard has been paid in some areas to keeping schools together when they were evacuated. I have had a case brought to my notice of a secondary school that is spread over seven or eight villages, and I have also the case of quite a small school in Surrey, from which fewer than 100 children were taken, which has been spread between three parishes in Berks and Buckinghamshire—I do not think I am giving information to the enemy and I hope the Minister of Information will not be too hard upon me—the village of Sunninghill, in Berkshire, Burnham in Buckinghamshire and Dorney in Buckinghamshire, three most delightful villages any one of which could have accommodated all the children. There will have to be some reshuffling of the children to put that matter right. It is desirable that as far as possible school units should be restored. I know the difficulties which confronted the billeting authorities when they had these children placed upon their hands and had to find places for them. It was essential that they should be placed in billets as soon as possible, and I hope that any adjustments which have to be made will be made at as early a date as is possible.
  I want to say on behalf of my hon. Friends that we desire to express our thanks to all those who have had anything to do with this great movement of the population. We know that it has imposed discomforts on some people in the receiving areas. We thank them for the spirit with which these discomforts have been borne. May I repeat something which was said by the Minister of Health, that in the weeks that lie ahead of us none of us knows whether he may not be evacuated from some place which at the moment appears to be quite safe. We have to meet perils which are common perils in the spirit of national unity which has been so largely exemplified, and I sincerely hope that no people who have been evacuated will unnecessarily come back. I hope that where discomforts exist which can be removed, the earliest opportunity will be taken of

  809
  removing them, because I am sure that there is a desire on the part of the receiving as well as the evacuation areas that this measure shall be one which will enable people to enjoy in as much safety as they can the life which lies ahead during the next few months. It may be that within the next few weeks detailed criticisms may have to be made. This evening I have tried not to elaborate criticisims which appear to me to be merely petty. I believe that the discomforts, I will not call them inefficiencies, which are being experienced at the moment, have been reduced to the minimum by the co-operation of all concerned, and I sincerely hope that that co-operation will continue and that the Minister will live up to the spirit of Circular 1871, which I welcome, so that we may be able to congratulate ourselves when the whole business is over upon having carried through this gigantic movement with the minimum of friction and the maximum of advantage.
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. Stephen: Last week I gave notice to the Secretary of State for Scotland that in the case of a particular evacuation, if the matter was not satisfactorily dealt with I should raise it on the Adjournment of the House. Yesterday I pressed the Prime Minister for an opportunity of discussing evacuation, and after I had done so I got a letter from the Secretary of State in which the particular case I put before him was dealt with and an assurance given to me that everything had been made right. If I had had the letter before I put the question, possibly I should not have raised the matter and the question of evacuation would not have been discussed in the House this week. At the same time I think that probably hon. Members will agree that it is just as well we should have an opportunity of discussing this question. We have to remember that there is to be a second move, there are to be further evacuations, and it is only right that we should profit from our experience of the first movement.
  I do not raise this question in any petty or carping spirit. I think that the movement of the hundreds and thousands of women and children has been a colossal achievement, a tremendous operation, carried through without any previous experience. Like everybody else I pay my tribute to the teachers and to the people
  810
  in the reception areas, and also to the mothers. At the same time I do not think we should blind ourselves to the fact that there had been very many big mistakes. I should like the Secretary of State for Scotland to tell us what is the percentage of those who have come back from the reception areas. I am told that it is about 50 per cent., and if that is the case then, evidently, there is something profoundly wrong which has to be dealt with. We must see that in any succeeding movement these mistakes do not occur again.
  The case which was brought to my notice occurred at Inverary, where 150 women and children were put into a hall. There had been expectation by the billeting committee that they would be able to get huts, but they were not able to get huts and no prospect of getting them, and instead of the billeting committee intimating to the education authority that they would have to reduce the number they decided to use the hall. Those 150 women and children were put in a miserable, cold hall. The bedding that was provided consisted simply of sacks of straw and a lot of dirty mattresses, with a broad arrow on them, that had been obtained from the gaol. There was something wrong with the state of mind which conceived that those arrangements were suitable ones. In the neighbourhood there is the residence of the Duke of Argyll, a residence having ever so many bedrooms. I understand there was the power of compulsion in existence. That castle was practically uninhabited, having in it only the Duke and his staff. There were all those bedrooms available, but instead of taking the castle and putting the people into it and using those bedrooms, they were put into that hall in the most degrading conditions. There were only two lavatories in the hall. In the Secretary's letter, it was stated that it was contemplated this was only a makeshift arrangement until billets could be found up country; but I was told by a member of the Glasgow education authority that he had been informed that it was contemplated that in the permanent arrangement there would be 70 in that hall. I think it shows a shocking state of mind for anybody to conceive that there should be 70 people in such a hall, which has only two lavatories
  With regard to the Inverary case, I want to say that the people generally

  811
  were kind and anxious to be as helpful as possible.[Interruption.] There was far less sympathy and help from the castle than from the poorest members of the community. Ultimately the Duke did take a few children and made provision for them in the basement of the castle. That is very discreditable in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. On the other hand, many of the local people were worried and anxious about what had occurred and were ready to help. There were some condemned houses that had been shut up for possibly a year. They got the keys of those houses and opened them, and many of the mothers who had been sent to this place with their children set about washing the dirty floors and cleaning up the condemned houses which had been uninhabited so long. Anybody knows the condition in which a house gets after it has been uninhabited for a period of months or a year or so. Some of the local people, teachers and so on, went round the houses in the locality and made a collection of the kind that is made in connection with jumble sales, of which many hon. Members, I suppose, have had experience in the course of their political life. They collected a chair here, an old bed somewhere else, and I think somebody gave an old carpet.
  The condemned houses were put into a sort of semi-habitable condition; but the conditions in the other place were so bad that afterwards the people who had been put into the condemned houses said that they would rather stay there. Having some misgivings as to future movements, they were prepared to stay in those houses. The secretary's letter indicated that those people were unwilling afterwards to leave the houses and go to the billets that had been arranged for them, because their first experience had been so bad. Some of the people in the district were as kind as they could be. The Episcopal minister there took in two teachers, but he took up the carpet from the room which he gave to them. The spirit of some of the people in the district certainly was not very good. I am told by the Minister that billets have been arranged, but I would suggest to him that in future the authority responsible for billeting in the district to which the people are to be sent should have an officer examine each billet and take account of the people who are to go to that billet.
  812
  In another town in Scotland, when the evacuees arrived at a hall the local people came and looked them over, and somebody said, "I will take those two children there." A friend of mine described it as being like a slave market in the old days. They looked round and said, "I will take those two there," or "I will take those three here." I suggest to the Minister that under the next scheme the people who are sending the evacuees out should, in conjunction with the billeting officer, have the billet examined—
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: And the children.
  Mr. Stephen: —and see that the billet is a satisfactory one for the people who are to be put there. The hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) says that he thinks it is only fair that there should be an examination of the children. I have noticed that in the Scottish Press there has been a great deal of correspondence about dirty children and dirty people, and all that sort of thing. As a Member of Parliament, I have travelled about the country a great deal, and I make bold to say that the people in Glasgow are as decent, clean and respectable people as one finds in any country town or in any other part of the country. I believe there has been a tremendous amount of exaggeration in connection with this matter. I do not know why the hon. Lady opposite should carry on as she does when I try to say something in connection with this scheme in order to try to prevent in future such things as happened at Inverary.
  The authority responsible for evacuating children should see that they are properly provided for when they go. I suggested to the Secretary for Scotland that these children have to take certain clothing with them and a lot of them would not be able to provide it and the teachers would find themselves in very difficult conditions with the children becoming ill without proper clothing, and I suggested that each party should have clothes provided. I give the right hon. Gentleman credit that it was done. So far as Inverary is concerned, a certain amount of boots and clothing was provided, but I believe the Government have failed in that they did not see beforehand that the children were provided with suitable underclothing and a proper rig-out.

  813
  I have heard of people who burnt the children's clothes because they were so bad, but those who sent them could not help it. Many of them are the children of unemployed people and, if they did not get a proper rig-out, it could not be helped. I know of one case in which an inspection of the children's parcels was suggested, and, when one was opened, it was found that there was not a change of underclothing and the child was told to tell his parents that he had none. That was a ridiculous thing for the teacher to say to the child.
  I believe that this parsimony on the part of the Government is one feature of the scheme which has made it ever so much less successful than it might have been. Many of the people are coming back, and I believe that much of the trouble that has occurred has arisen from the fact that a lot of the children had not got the things they should have when going to stay in a strange home. [Interruption.] The Noble Lady shakes her head. I know that she is omniscient but the experience of people that I have met is that that is the case. Possibly the Noble Lady is so mean that she is afraid of money being spent on these children. Anyhow, it is quite apparent that there are many hundreds of thousands whose parents could not give them the things they should have had. A lot of the trouble that has arisen is due to the fact that the Government was not prepared to spend the necessary money to see that the children were properly provided for. I believe the scheme would have been ever so much more successful if the Government had provided those things.
  There has been a lot of comment on the condition of the children. [An Hon Member: "It is true."] If it is true, it is a very bitter comment on the Department of Health. It means that the Department has failed, and the local authority has to take its responsibility and share in the blame. I believe that the people in the reception areas are kind to the evacuees. We are all very much alike, and, if people take others into their homes, it creates discomfort for them and it means that they are showing a spirit of generosity. It may be said that they are being paid, but it is not a profitable speculation for the people in the reception areas. They are not wanting it on that basis. They have done it out of a sense
  814
  of responsibility and duty to others. [Interruption.] The intolerable cheap sneers of the Noble Lady show the same sort of spirit as is shown in Inverary by the Duke of Argyll, which was responsible for so much of the trouble. It was quite apparent to people who went there that the feudal lordship puts people in such terror that they were afraid to do things because it would not be liked by the Castle.
  Friends have told me how kindly their children have been treated and how well they are getting on. The spirit on the part of many of the people has been admirable, but the large percentage coming back shows that there is something fundamentally wrong, and I believe one thing is that there has not been sufficient care taken by the Government to provide the material things for the children and the necessary medical supervision and assistance. At Inverary, when they were put into the hall, the children had to go about a mile and a half for their clothes. I should like to pay a tribute to the man who looked after the catering. There was nothing but the highest praise for that man, who will probably lose a lot of money because of the way in which he sought to cater for the children and put himself at a great disadvantage because of the circumstances in which they found themselves. In any future evacuation it is not sufficient to say that each should have a change of underclothing, a pair of house shoes, an overcoat and so on. They should be provided for those who cannot provide them themselves. The parents of a family of four are told to provide four new pairs of boots. It simply cannot be done. They have not the income. There is provision under the Education Act, but it does not work out that way. If provision had been made for these things to be obtained many difficulties would have been avoided. I hope the Minister will see that each authority evacuating children will appoint a responsible official to examine all the billets and see that they are appropriate.
  I would also ask what are the functions of the liaison officer? Dr. Biggar was the liaison officer at Inverary and when there was this general dismay among the people when they were brought into the hall, I gather that his attitude of mind was that it was wartime and that you could not expect what you would have in peace-time. It seemed

  815
  to me that such a state of mind showed that he certainly was not a person who ought to have been acting as liaison officer, and one would like to know what are the exact duties of these officers. Do not let us here delude ourselves. A very great work has been carried out. I admit all that. But it is also known to us that great numbers have gone back and will have to be evacuted again possibly, in the future, from cities like Glasgow. We have to make sure that we realise the mistakes that have been made, so that in future, after all the trouble of evacuation has been taken, we shall not have a recurrence of what happened on this occasion. I am glad that the Minister has made inquiries and has given an assurance with regard to Inverary. I hope we shall also have an assurance that the Government in future will see that the children are provided with the proper clothing, boots and shoes, for the district to which they are going, and that care will be taken to prevent anything like this happening again.
  6.43 p.m.
  Captain Thornton-Kemsley: The House must be grateful to the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) for raising this question and for the way in which he has raised it. He was right, of course, in saying that nothing of this kind had ever been attempted before in this country. We have not any precedents to look back upon; we have no records which we can search, no past mistakes from which we can learn. It is, of course, easy to criticise, and the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) allowed himself to indulge in some criticism from the point of view of the people whom I like to call the guests. I hope that in anything I say, my criticisms, for I intend to make criticisms, will be designed to be helpful. I think we ought not to congratulate ourselves that the task is finished. As the hon. Member for Camlachie says, the trek back to the towns has already begun, and as long as there are no air raids on the big cities—and we must all hope that that will be as long as the war shall last—this trek back to the cities will continue. We have to be prepared for it.
  I think one mistake has been that in some cases we have placed the evacuees
  816
  too near the cities from which they have been sent. Just as it is unwise to send a boy to a boarding school which is too near his own home, so it is unwise to send evacuees to places within a bus ride of the cities which they have left. The temptation to return is too great. Even if they are only making a return in order to pick up some extra garments or to see how the old man is getting on, still it is costing money which they can ill afford, and it has an unsettling effect upon them. If it is unsettling to the evacuees, it has also disadvantages which were felt by many people in my constituency this past week-end, when our Kincardineshire roads were full of motor cars bearing Dundee registration numbers, packed to overflowing with people who had come "for a hurl," as we say in Scotland, to see their friends in the country, an invasion which caused a raid on the larders of a great many people.
  There is an advantage in occasional visits from close relatives which outweighs the disadvantages, for it does enable those who have been left in the cities to see that their friends are being well looked after and cared for, as I believe to be the case in the great majority of instances. Moreover, it enables evacuees to endure the very real hardship of separation from those whom they have left behind. It was said to my wife in my presence last Sunday, by a women whose children she had been looking after," It was hard for us last week to stand at our work not knowing where our bairns were, but now that I have seen them I can go back to my work with an easy mind," and I am glad to say that she added "and a grateful heart." It is so important, I think, to encourage the evacuees to remain where they are by mitigating the hardships of separation that I think it would be worth the Government's while to arrange for cheap fares for fathers and mothers to visit their children or for husbands to visit their wives at stated intervals during the period of separation. I think a gesture of that kind would be appreciated, and it might help to solve a very real problem which we may have to face, the problem of the trek back to the cities.
  I now come to an aspect of this matter which is as distressing as it is distasteful. I have received a good deal of correspondence from my constituency, which I know to be true, because I know the

  817
  people who have sent it, and in many cases I have looked into the matter personally. I had a letter yesterday from someone who was a Member of this House, and who wrote to me and conveyed to me, at the request of the rector of an Episcopal church in my constituency, a complaint that children who had been sent from Glasgow had been sent in a verminous condition.
  Mr. Buchanan: It is a terrible shame, this kind of thing, hurling things across in innuendoes. If the hon. Member is going to quote from a man, let us have the name of the man, and let us know who the children are. Do not let us have innuendoes flung across. You are taking the fathers to fight, yet you come here and make the most villainous, slanderous statements against their children. [Hon. Members: "Order."] I do not care about your "Order." I am not going to have my children slandered, and you will have to listen to me. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I am not having the children whom I represent slandered, not even by an officer. They are as good as yours, and I am not having them slandered in a superior tone. They are my folk, and I know them, and they are the only folk that ever I knew.
  Mr. Speaker: I hope the hon. Member will control himself.
  Mr. Buchanan: Why not speak to the hon. Member who is slandering my folk? They are the only folk that ever I knew, the folk I was born among, and if he is to be allowed to slander them—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must allow the Debate to continue in an orderly manner.
  Captain Thornton-Kemsley: The last thing I want to do is to slander any children. If the hon. Member for Gorbals knew me better he would know that that is not what I want to do at all. This is a social problem which the House ought to face. I do not make accusations against the children. How can they help it?
  Mr. Buchanan: Then you are complaining about the parents.
  Captain Thornton-Kemsley: I am not slandering the parents or the children. I am stating plain facts which this House has to recognise. This report which I
  818
  have received from the rector of an Episcopal church—
  Mr. Stephen: What is his name?
  Captain Thomton-Kemsley: —says that these children are in a verminous condition and suffering in some cases from impetigo, and that in some cases bedding and mattresses have had to be destroyed. He makes the suggestion that if such children are to be included in evacuation, steps should be taken to place them in camps or communal billets.
  Mr. Buchanan: Do not let them come near yours.
  Captain Thornton-Kemsley: I have another letter from a doctor who is a justice of the peace, and who writes on behalf of many people in his district. He says that the children and their mothers arrived in his district mostly in a very filthy and verminous condition and that many were very inadequately clad. Their habits were indescribable, and many cases had come to his notice where carpets, mattresses and bedding had had to be completely destroyed owing to the primitive habits of these evacuees. He also suggests a communal system of billeting and adds:
  "I know everyone will be only too glad to help in the running of communal kitchens and dormitories."
  This is not a pleasant matter for anyone to raise in this House.
  Mr. McGovern: It is the product of the capitalist system.
  Mr. Buchanan: It is time they knew the condition of the places from which these people come. We have been telling them for years.
  Captain Thornton-Kemsley: I believe these are things that we can rectify. I have been asked by mothers from the evacuation areas to see that their children are not allowed to go with others in that kind of condition. It is important that when we get on to the stage of further infiltration from the cities, the medical officers and sanitary inspectors should see that people of this kind are sent out in a clean condition, or, if not, sent into some sort of communal billets.
  Another point I want to make is about the food allowances. It is true, I am afraid—and I hope the hon. Member for Gorbals will not dispute this statement,

  819
  for I have investigated it—that where people are sent to a village and make their own arrangements for feeding these children there have been cases in which the money has not all been spent on food for the children. There have been far too many in a district I know going up and down the village shops asking for red wine, a concoction which we know better under the name of "red biddy." I have met cases where the children have been deprived of food for that reason. I suggest that, where the hosts can report to medical officers that that sort of thing is happening and that these cases can be proved, instead of giving these people money they ought to be given coupons exchangeable for essential foodstuffs so that the children do not go short of food. Properly run this scheme can be of the greatest secondary advantage to everybody in the country. The hon. Member for South Shields said that country people did not always understand town people and that town people did not always understand country people. That is true. To overcome prejudice is not easy, but to get to know the other person is the first step, and it is half the battle.
  6.55 p.m.
  Major Owen: I represent a constituency which is a reception area and not an evacuation area. I have in my hand a report, which reached me this morning from my constituency, signed by six of the billeting officers in a part of my county drawing attention to what has happened in that particular area. I know each of those billeting officers personally. One of them is the second master at the county schools in that area, and the others are headmasters of five village schools. The account is a perfectly fair one, but it describes what happened in that one area. Similar things have happened in other areas. I should like to place before the House the position of the receiving areas. We have heard the evacuation side from the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) and from the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), but there is another side. I think it is most important that the evacuation authorities should use a certain amount of discretion, and certainly use a great deal of care, as to the areas into which they send their evacuated population.
  Mr. Ede: The evacuation areas have no say as to where the children should go. That is entirely the responsibility of the Government.
  Major Owen: I did, in fact, mean this to apply to the Government. There has been a great deal of lack of forethought and care in selecting the areas to which people are sent. In my view it is ridiculous, impossible, to send people from Liverpool, for instance, into the far end of south Carnarvon. Aberdaron, a little village on the point of the Lleyn peninsula, is a beautiful village, but there are not many people who have been accustomed to town life who can put up for more than a week or a fortnight with a place like that. There are no public houses there—well, only two very ordinary, quiet country public houses, more in the nature of small hotels than anything else. There is no place of entertainment. On 4th September 424 mothers and children from the Edgehill district of Liverpool were sent there. What has happened? In the whole of the area there are not more than 50 left—I am not quite sure of the exact figure. The others have returned. Who, I wonder, is responsible for this state of affairs?
  The children of school age belonging to these mothers have been sent to Wrexham. The mothers were told that they also were to be evacuated to the Wrexham district. The train stopped on the way, and the mothers got out, but then found they were not going to Wrexham. Eventually they were told to get back into the train and were taken a journey of 120 miles—in a non-corridor train. Who was responsible for that? I have a great deal of sympathy with these mothers and the condition in which they arrived, but at the same time the story is all in favour of the evacuees.
  There is a tremendous lot to be said for the quiet country people in villages, such as we have in Carnarvonshire, who have received people speaking a completely different language and with customs and habits entirely different from those of the people living in those villages. A good many of these women visitors, when they were asked what they were going to do, said that they did not want to stay in those areas because there were no public houses. I do not say that this is the main reason, but

  821
  I do not agree with what the hon. Member for Camlachie or the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) says. These are facts.
  Mr. Buchanan: Does not the hon. and gallant Member accept my statements as facts? Each of us speaks as he knows.
  Major Owen: Nobody is stone blind but he who will not see. The hon. Member said that he was brought up in a certain area. I was brought up among the people myself. I am one of them and I am not ashamed of it. I have every sympathy for them, but I do not want to hear things thrown to other Members of this House as though they knew nothing about the condition of the poor.
  Mr. Buchanan: We do not say that.
  Major Owen: I was brought up in almost the poorest household one could imagine. I do not think it is a disgrace. I am proud of it and proud to acknowledge the people from whom I sprang; but let us face the truth.
  Mr. Buchanan: Let us have it.
  Major Owen: Would the hon. Member like me to read the document?
  Hon. Members: "Read it"; and "No!"
  Mr. Buchanan: Why not?
  Major Owen: I do not want to read it. I was going to hand it over to the Minister, but I will read it—and I know all these men myself. On Tuesday I saw the clerk of the rural district council and I was present in Carnarvon when a large number of these people arrived. It is no good saying that everything was perfect or that the fault is in the areas to which they have been evacuated. This is what he said:
  "From a health point of view we have the following observations to make:
  The majority of these evacuees "—
  the majority, note—
  "were not in a fit state of cleanliness to be received in any clean home."
  I do not want to go on and read this document on the Floor of the House, but the hon. Member has challenged me. Here is another statement:
  "In some cases, as a result of their filthy habits, every scrap of bedding, clothing, and even blinds and curtains had to be destroyed.
  822
  The district nurse who visited these cases in the Aberdaron district can testify to their filthy habits and verminous condition."
  Here are a few typical cases. They say:

  "(a) This case is pathetic. The poor woman, the householder, is nearly brokenhearted amongst the ruins of her home. The room which one woman and her two children had occupied for only two nights is dreadful and no words can describe to you the terrible state of the whole room. Every scrap of bedding, clothing, and even blinds and curtains had to be burnt immediately. It was really horrifying to set eyes on the scene.

  (b)Two other cases are reported, both having been visited; everything had to be burnt.

  (c)In plain words, the bedroom "— had been used as a latrine.

  This has happened not merely throughout the whole of my constituency, but in places like Colwyn Bay, Anglesey, Montgomery and Cardigan—everywhere along that coast. We are told that the children needed clothes. I was present myself at the time of their arrival, and the people in that area gave them the warmest welcome, prepared food for them when they arrived, and lent their cars to take them to their billets. There was one case of refusal. A woman was fined £25 because she refused to take a verminous woman into her house. I know her, and I can sympathise with her.
  I am expressing what is the general feeling of that area. We wish to do all we can. The people there have bought new clothes and boots for the children. They have clothed them completely. They have had no benefit whatever from the amount allowed. It is hard that there is no compensation, so far as I know, for the losses endured by the people in those districts as a result of lack of care and attention on the part of the medical authorities in the City of Liverpool before these people were sent. I hope that some action will be taken. I saw a lovely little girl put on one side on arrival in Carnarvon. She complained of a sore throat. She had been sent, and she was suffering from scarlet fever. There have been cases of diphtheria and mumps sent to those districts, where there were none present before. There has been bad management somewhere. If these women have to be evacuated again, I hope that care will be taken to send them to places where they are likely to be comfortable, and that they are not sent among people with whom they have no sympathy, whom they cannot understand, who are

  823
  entirely different from them, who speak a different language, have different habits, and have different thoughts. We all want this movement to be carried out successfully, but let the Ministry try to arrange some better method than they have at present.
  7.9 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Colville): It might be for the convenience of the House if I spend a few moments answering the questions that have been put, particularly in relation to Scotland. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will deal with the subject more generally when he winds up. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member for Carnarvon (Major Owen) and the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) will forgive me if I do not follow them except to re-echo their hope that in this immense effort that we are making we shall be successful. A very large number of people have been evacuated smoothly, from the point of view of their removal and their immediate reception. That, at least, will be recognised as a very great achievement, and as proof of our determination to let nothing stop us in this great effort. But I recognise that after the initial move some difficulties did arise and were bound to arise. It is impossible to conceive that it could have been otherwise. Let us now take the opportunity of sorting out the difficulties and learning from the experience we have gained, and not try to find the worst, and to see the worst, but rather to make the best of the situation that we have to face.
  Let me deal with the specific case in Inverary to which the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) referred. Perhaps I need not say much because I wrote to the hon. Member and explained the circumstances. In that beautiful Highland town the estimate of numbers to be received went wrong. The County Council of Argyll had estimated for 150 more than, in fact, they were able to take. Owing to a misunderstanding they thought that certain accommodation was available which was not available. Temporary arrangements —and I was assured that they were only intended to be temporary—were made for the children. I do not say that they were the most comfortable arrangements; I have told the hon. Member that all these children now
  824
  have found other billets. To mention one case, a mansion house further down the Loch has been taken over and helpers installed, and I believe that the children will be comfortable there. I would not like it to go out that the people of Inverary and of Argyll are less willing than other people in the country to do their part in receiving children. I do not think that the hon. Member would say that.
  Mr. Stephen: No, not for one minute. The people were very kind.
  Mr. Colyille: In the movement, in the case of Scotland, of 175,000 children I, as Secretary of State, have only heard of this specific instance of difficulty of this kind and apparent hardship for the evacuated persons owing to misunderstanding taking place, and I think that that is really rather remarkable. I do not say there were not other cases. Most grumbles come speedily to me as Secretary of State. I have heard many grumbles and difficulties of several kinds, but I have heard of only this one specific case of apparent hardship to evacuated persons. It was brought first to my notice actually by the hon. Member for Mary-hill (Mr. Davidson) in whose division, I believe, the school particularly affected is situated. The hon. Member for Camlachie wrote to me as well, and as soon as I heard of the matter I put investigations in hand, and if in any other cases investigation proves that matters can be improved, I will do my best to improve them.
  I will give hon. Members figures to show the proportion of movements in Scotland. Of the total of 175,000 persons evacuated, the children numbered 135,000, and mothers 24,000. The unaccompanied children numbered 50,000 and the children who went with their mothers were rather more than 84,000, which is rather a higher proportion, I think, than in the case of England and Wales. The rest of the figure of 175,000 is made up with teachers and helpers, expectant mothers, blind adults and children from special schools. The hon. Member for Camlachie asked whether I could tell him how many have gone back. I cannot do that without calling for a special return. I cannot give him such a figure, and I would not like to hazard a figure which might be quoted as official. It has been stated in some

  825
  parts that it is as much as 50 per cent. but I am sure that is quite an exaggerated figure. I am looking at this matter and trying to get more accurate information on the subject. In some districts very few indeed have gone back; in other districts mothers have tended to go back and leave some of their elder children behind. It is not always because there is something terribly wrong perhaps that they have gone back. It may be in some cases the natural instinct of a woman to say, "I would like to go back and look after my husband." A number of wives may have gone back to look after their husbands.
  Mr. Buchanan: You can take it from me, they need looking after.
  Mr. Colville: The hon. Member will recognise that I am not making any contentious observation. I am stating what I believe to be the fact in a number of cases. In general, I would say that there have been many fewer difficulties in the case of unaccompanied children than in the case of accompanied children. I noted with interest the suggestion of the hon. Member for South Shields as to the best way to deal with the accompanied children and the mothers. I can speak from my Scottish experience, and I repeat that, generally speaking, unaccompanied children have settled down much better than the mothers. I have myself visited some of the reception areas. I visited some areas in Lanarkshire, where I found that the children were settling down contentedly and well. One of my hon. Friends said that it was a mistake to send children to reception areas too near their homes. I would not like to generalise on that, but certainly in regard to some of the cases I visited in Lanarkshire the Glasgow children had settled down very contentedly. It may be, as the hon. and gallant Member for Carnarvon (Major Owen) said, that people coming from a town and going to a remote part of the country, which is very unfamiliar to them, find it difficult to settle down. But the areas that I visited were scattered mining areas which had taken people in from Glasgow and they had settled down contentedly, though they were very near their homes. I do not say that some of the mothers had not gone back, but I was very pleased, on the whole, with what I saw there. I think it is therefore difficult to generalise on the question.
  826
  The question of medical inspection has been raised and stressed. I should like to believe that none of the stories was true about children arriving who were not clean, but I am afraid the evidence is that there were a number of such cases. There have been exaggerations. From some of the statements I have heard and some of the reports that one has read, one might almost have thought that no child had left any evacuation district in a clean condition.
  Mr. Buchanan: It is just nonsense.
  Mr. Colville: It is just nonsense. At the same time, there is solid evidence, and I say it with the sense of responsibility which my office carries, that there were a great many cases where that was not so, and where, on account of vermin and infection, much was left to be desired in regard to inspection. Having said that, I want to give an undertaking, speaking for Scotland. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will underline the undertaking in his own way later on. The undertaking refers to both of us. Except in what I would call crash conditions, by which I mean in the event of serious air raids and burnings, when we should all do our very best in the circumstances to help people who had to be evacuated; except in such conditions, every possible step will be taken to ensure that no child will be transferred to a billet in a verminous condition. I am making arrangements with the local authorities in the sending areas—we have sent out a circular already—that they will take every possible step to have an efficient inspection and efficient treatment, if treatment be necessary, before any further move. If it becomes necessary for considerations of safety—I am not speaking of crash conditions, but the ordinary movement that we are trying still to carry out, by what I might call infiltration— to remove a child who is not free from infection or disease, I am anxious to make arrangements for the reception of such a child into an institution or other place where for the time being it can be properly attended to. That may not be a very easy thing to arrange, but I am certain that that is the way to go about it.
  In making these remarks, I am casting no reflection on the parents of the children, or the children themselves, but I am merely stating facts. The hard facts are

  827
  that we have had billeted in the homes of many of our people a number of people whose condition, perhaps through no fault of their own—and on the proper occasion I could speak about the housing conditions of some parts of Scotland—makes them difficult to accommodate. We are anxious to do all we can to mitigate the difficulties, but do not let us exaggerate them; let us try to meet them.
  What I have said about our future efforts will, I hope, give the House the assurance that we intend to make every possible effort to see that the children are properly cared for and inspected, and that in the necessary cases they will be sent to places where they can be properly attended. We propose that in any further movements we should transfer only unaccompanied children, and we propose to do this rather by way of infiltration to places where they can be comfortably accommodated in the country. We have been taking a registration during the last few days. It will go on until to-morrow night in Scotland, but the figures I have do not show that there is an enormous number who want to go out. The figures are relatively small. Between 11th and 13th September there were in Scotland about 10,000 names given in; 3,000 in Edinburgh, rather over 5,000 in Glasgow, and the rest in Dundee, Rosyth and Clydebank. To-morrow may show a few more, but that figure of 10,000 is one with which we can easily cope and for which I am sure we can find accommodation in the reception areas.
  I have confined myself principally to Scotland, although I have made one or two general observations which show that my right hon. Friend and I are working closely together. I am also charged with educational problems in Scotland, and I am glad to say that in many of the reception areas the schools have now reopened, and it is having good effect on the children in those areas. There may have been some difficulties and in some cases double shifts, but the difficulties are not insuperable, and they will not be insuperable.
  I should like to refer to rather a different matter. I promised the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) to refer to a question he asked me last night but to which I was unable to reply because I did not speak. His question refers to public gatherings. He asked me
  828
  whether there was any general ban placed by the Government on the holding of meetings. As far as the Government's powers in this matter are concerned, the hon. Member is no doubt aware that under the Defence Regulations the Secretary of State has power to prohibit the holding of a meeting where he is satisfied that it would be likely to cause serious public disorder or promote disaffection. That power has not yet been exercised, and there is no question of a general prohibition of meetings at which Members of Parliament wish to address their constituents in the ordinary way. Of course, the magistrates have certain responsibilities to discharge in addition, and they have certain discretion in discharging them. I am confident that that discretion will be wisely used.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: There is one question I should like to ask the Secretary of State. In Scotland, some children have been taken a very long distance from Edinburgh to the region of Inverness. If the evacuation continues for a considerable time, the parents of these children would like to have an opportunity of visiting their children. Some of the parents are far too poor to pay the railway fare for the whole of that distance. I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would say whether the matter of assisting parents in such cases, either by free railway journeys or by assisting in the payment of the fare, will be given consideration.
  Mr. Buchanan: When the right hon. Gentleman replies to that question perhaps he will be good enough to deal with a further point. There is some doubt in the minds of people about the costs involved. Could he issue publicly, for the guidance of people, some clear statement of what the costs are and who is expected to pay them?
  Mr. Colville: I think it would be better if at the end of the Debate my right hon. Friend dealt with the general question put by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). As to the point raised by the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), while that is a matter which affects Scotland, it also affects England, and I think it would have to be considered as a whole. I can say no more to-night than that I will take note of it.
  7.27 p.m.
  Dr. Haden Guest: I think that the Debate so far has concentrated rather too much on certain questions of vermin and so forth which may have been unknown to many hon. Members, but which are certainly not unknown to the medical profession. Anyone who will take the trouble to read the reports of school medical officers of such towns as Glasgow, London, Edinburgh—in fact, any town in this country—will find that unfortunately there is always a proportion of children who are verminous.
  Mr. Buchanan: Nobody denies it.
  Mr. Ede: Not only in the towns, but in the country as well.
  Dr. Guest: I agree. Therefore, there is nothing unusual about discovering that a number of the children who go into the country areas from the towns are actually infested with vermin. I do not believe there is more than the usual number. I may say that beginning on Sunday last, I made an inspection, as detailed as I could, of the conditions in certain reception areas—in Essex, a fairly detailed inquiry, and other inquiries in Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, Worcestershire and Kent—and in all cases the answer was very much the same. It was the answer which has already been conveyed to the House by different hon. Members who have spoken—that is to say, that as far as the unaccompanied school children are concerned, on the whole the evacuation has been an outstanding success. I must say that when the hon. and gallant Member for Carnarvon (Major Owen) mentioned that a number of children had travelled 120 miles in a non-corridor train, I was sorry that that should be the fact, but in view of the fact that we are trying to move 3,500,000 people from the towns into the country to save their lives in time of emergency, if that is the worst hardship they have to endure, I do not think it is very serious. One must not exaggerate. It has been a tremendous transport and organising achievement, an achievement which is, as far as I know, unparalleled.
  There have been all kinds of difficulties in the reception areas that I have mentioned. I want to deal with the question which has been raised by one or two Members of rooms being fouled by people using them as latrines. I have had a
  830
  good deal of experience in very poor districts in the East End of London, in South Wales and also in Southwark and other parts of South London, and I have never known that particular thing happen in people's own homes. I have heard accounts of this not only from Scotland. I have heard one from an extremely responsible observer, a Fellow of an Oxford College, and an exactly similar account from a builder, a responsible man, in an Essex village, and I have heard it elsewhere. It seems to me that the explanation may have been a psychological disturbance due to the evacuation from the towns and people going into country areas, where the latrine arrangements are entirely different from those in towns, and the people not understanding and so misbehaving themselves in that way. It is very unfortunate that it should have happened, but it appears to me that these are abnormal cases which will be rectified as soon as people get to understand the usages that prevail in country districts. 7 do not think it can be held as a general accusation against any class of the population and I am sure it was not meant to be made in that way.
  But, while it is agreed that the arrangements for school children have been good, it is also agreed everywhere I went that having adult women in the houses with other women will not do. They must have separate arrangements made. In fact, in a little Essex village where I am living at present people are discussing whether they can make separate kitchens. It is a very complicated matter and it is leading to a number of women going back to London. I do not think, from inquiries that I have made, that it is anything like 50 per cent. There may be, in special areas where there have been unfortunate conditions, a large proportion of a little group, but it is much more likely to be 5 per cent. than 50. It is impossible to give any definite figure. I asked for definite figures from the people I was interviewing and they were unable to give them to me.
  There are, however, some other problems of a more far-reaching character which have not yet been mentioned. For instance, in Essex, which is partly an evacuating area—the town parts—and partly a reception area, the children are distributed over 17 different villages, and there are children taking various kinds of higher education dumped down in

  831
  villages where there are no facilities for that kind of education. Those are matters which will, of course, have to be rearranged. Then there is a further difficulty with regard to feeding. The different scales of payment for mothers with children and for unaccompanied children are bound to cause very great dissatisfaction. There is no reason why a child with its mother should be paid for at one rate and, if it is in a different house, should be paid for twice as much. That must be corrected in some way.
  I am rather sorry that this Debate has occurred at such an early date after evacuation has taken place, because there has hardly been time to get the reports, but, as it has occurred, I should like to take the opportunity of saying that we ought to aim at giving every child from the town districts not only a good diet but the optimum diet necessary for its development. The children of the nation are its most important asset and we have an unprecedented opportunity now of dealing with those children under country conditions, where they can grow strong and well. With a little intelligence and organisation, we can see to it that they get, not only ordinary good diet but the optimum diet laid down by the medical authorities consulted by the Government. Under the conditions of evacuation, this would cost little if anything more than the Government are now paying.
  I was glad to see that the Minister in the circular sent to local authorities referred, in particular, to this question of feeding, and suggested the importance of a mid-day communal meal. I hope that suggestion will be carried out. From inquiries I have made I am sure that if the mid-day communal meal is made of general application, it will have to be paid for by deduction from the billeting allowance. It should not be a voluntary arrangement, because then some people would not be willing to make that arrangement, while other people would, and you would thus fall between two stools. In fact that has already occurred in many districts where arrangements for a communal meal have not been made because many of the villagers were not willing, on account of money difficulties. If a certain amount could be deducted from the allowance for each child for billeting and food allowance, that could
  832
  be applied to the payment for a midday meal and would make it possible for that meal to be constituted so as to make it, along with the breakfast and tea meals which the children get, the optimum diet which they require. I carried out a feeding experiment on those lines many years ago and found that it was possible to concentrate the major nutritive foods in the mid-day meal, allowing also for the food which the children got at the beginning and the end of the day. It would be much easier to do this under the conditions of living in the country districts than it was in the case of the experiment which I have in mind, which was in the town.
  Then with regard to boots and clothes. I speak as a Member for a London district which has been evacuated and also as a resident in a small Essex village to which children have been sent. There are some children billeted in the house in which I live. I know about this thing, as I think the Minister of Health also knows about it, from personal experience. The question of boots and clothes is very important and I suggest that the boots and clothes should be provided through the school authority and paid for by the parents in instalments. This will become even more important as soon as the weather becomes wet. I have still another suggestion to offer. In many parts of the country there are school gardens used for growing flowers and so on. It would be a good thing if every village school set out to have its own allotment and to grow food for next year. There is no reason why enough potatoes and vegetables generally should not be grown in a school garden to supply the needs of children next year. In that way the children would learn something practical about agriculture and it would be an extremely valuable work.
  As regards education it will be very difficult, in present circumstances, to keep up the standard of education. Schools have been split up so that you have the junior teacher in one place and the head mistress in another, so far apart that they cannot keep in touch with each other. Very great care will have to be taken in order to keep up the standard of education. I want to point out also what a very large amount of work this is going to throw on the teachers. Everything should be done to relieve the teachers of

  833
  unnecessary work. I think it is quite right—and I know, because I have had talks with leaders of the teachers' organisations on this matter—that we should ask the teachers to do a good deal more in this time of crisis than they normally do, and I believe that, generally speaking, they are quite willing to do it, but I think it would be advisable, if we could, to help them by providing means by which some of the very heavy work which they have to do would be lightened.
  In that respect I believe that nothing would lighten their work more than a very large extension of broadcasting in the schools. The B.B.C. put out an extremely good schools programme, and they are now I visited them yesterday at their new headquarters and discussed it with the schools department there— ready to put out very much more extensive schools programmes of an extremely good quality, specially adapted, as it were, to make the country come alive to the town child. They can do that if the schools have radio sets to receive the programmes. At the present time I believe that something like 20,000 schools only in the country as a whole have radio sets. In the county of Essex very few schools have them, and I think the Minister might consider whether he should not himself make an appeal to well-intentioned people of all kinds in the different villages and in the country areas to give radio sets to the schools in order that this excellent broadcasting for schools may be given attention. I will not refer further to the problem of the mother with the child under five and the expectant mother, except to say one thing, and I put it in the form of a definite statement, subject, of course, to challenge, but I do not think the Minister will disagree. I am quite convinced that the problem of the mother with the child under five and the expectant mother will not be solved unless they are put either into large hostels, as one hon. Friend says, or into camps, and I believe that the sooner we get on with the organisation of that, the sooner we shall be ready to meet the situation.
  May I say a last word, which I hope may be taken as a word of warning, to people from towns who have gone to the country and who are now coming back because up to the present there has been no danger in the towns? I believe that it would be the gravest mistake in the
  834
  world for more people to come back from the country now than have already come back. I regret profoundly that people have come back. If they have to remove at some future time in a hurry, it may be extremely difficult. It is not because anybody is afraid of danger, it is not because we think women are less able than others to face danger, but because we think it is a wrong use of human life to have women and young children in a town which is liable to be bombed. For the sake, not only of themselves, but of the nation, they ought to be as far as possible away from the danger if they can get away, and if any words of mine can have effect, I do appeal to all mothers with young children not to come back from the country if they are already there, to take advantage of any arrangements which the Government may make to go to the country while things are quiet, and to stay away for a period in order to see what may come. I cannot believe that we have passed through the crisis of danger in this war. I hope that people will remember that this great evacuation scheme will fail if people, of their own volition, filter back from the country into the towns and, therefore, give us all the problem to do over again, under conditions which may be infinitely less favourable than they are at the present time.
  7.45 p.m.
  Mr. Tree: As evacuation is now two weeks old to-day, it is perhaps possible to see some of its defects and to be able to draw deductions from them objectively, and perhaps it may be best to say a word or two about one's own experience. In Oxfordshire we made arrangements on the first day of evacuation to receive 800 children, on the second day to receive 800, and on the third day an odd lot of mothers and children. That was confirmed by telephone on the day of evacuation. The first day we received 900 children late in the evening. They were satisfactorily dealt with. On the second day, although a like number of children were expected, 900 mothers and children arrived late in the evening in a small rural area. No adequate provision had been made for them. Despite that, everybody turned out and worked magnificently. I think that one of the reasons for the difficulties that have since arisen is the fact that not enough workers came down on the trains who

  835
  were able to cope with the people and knew the type of people with whom they were dealing. As many hon. Members have stated, I have heard no complaints about school children. We have had a great many of them in Oxfordshire. Some of them may have been verminous. I do not know about that, but there have been no complaints and everywhere a great effort has been made to look after them suitably.
  There is a difference of opinion with regard to mothers with children. A very unsatisfactory state of affairs has arisen, and I am told by the local billeting officer in Oxfordshire that already 50 per cent. of the mothers with children have returned to London. Undoubtedly, if air raids start in the near future a great many of these people will want to return to the country. It will be impossible to expect the rural householder who has already had experience of some of these people to take them again. I would, therefore, urge, as many hon. Members have already done, that some form of hostels or hutments should be prepared ready for these mothers when that moment should arrive. Every effort should be made to persuade those who have returned to London to part with their children on a nursery school basis. I would like to say a word about nursery schools because I have one in my own house at the moment. The children came down and settled in, and they have been completely happy. The hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) mentioned the uneasiness of mothers about their children, and I should like to state one example. A few days after the children had arrived a mother turned up, having cycled all the way from London to see her child. It had taken two days for her to get there. She expressed great satisfaction at what she saw, and said, "I wish other mothers and fathers could see the surroundings in which these children are, and it would completely satisfy them." I agree with the hon. Member for South Shields that if it is possible for mothers to arrange to see their children where the distances are not too great it should be encouraged.
  But how are we going to deal with the children between one and five who have returned with their mothers to London, or else are still in London and the other big cities? I say we should deal with
  836
  them on a nursery school basis, that if possible large centres should be established, and that it should be made known to parents either now or when air raids start that children will be received in those areas. As many nursery school teachers as possible should be assembled and then drafts of 30, 40 or 50 children should be sent into the country. I know there is one difficulty, that, unfortunately, there are very few nursery school teachers available. Therefore, it may be necessary to do something else along these lines. To persuade householders to take small nurseries of four or five children into their homes, with an older person to look after them, and then establish in each area a day nursery school to which these four or five children from individual houses should go. I think it might be possible to work out some arrangement of that sort. What I would emphasise is that the Minister ought to do everything he can to persuade mothers in the big cities to allow their children to go into the country on the basis of being looked after on nursery school lines.
  I have always been a believer in the nursery school system of education, but since I got to know more about it and the part it has played in this evacuation scheme I have become a far more ardent believer in it than ever before. I believe it is an answer to a great many problems that we have been talking about tonight arising in homes which perhaps have not had the chance to teach children habits which they should form when they are very young. Perhaps out of this war it may be possible that at least some good shall come by bringing to the attention of a great many hundreds of thousands of people the necessity for more and larger nursery schools.
  7.53 p.m.
  Mr. McEntee: I was sent by the local authority of which I am a member into the areas to which children from our area were sent. I was accompanied by my wife, who happens to be the deputy mayor, and was deputising for the mayor, and by the director of education. We travelled into areas as far away as Rutland, and came back through Kettering, Rushden and many of the villages round there in Bedfordshire. The thing that struck me particularly was that the children are almost entirely happy. Almost

  837
  every one of the school children I met was happy, and the other children were too, but the mothers are unhappy, very unhappy indeed—not in all cases, but in many cases. I do not know how many have returned, and I should not like even to guess, but when it is said that 50 per cent. have probably returned I think that is a high estimate, very much exaggerated. I do not think that anything like that number is returning and I certainly hope that nothing like it will return.
  What are the problems that we discussed with the mothers and the difficulties in which the mothers found themselves? We met mothers—some of them stopped us in the street because they knew us—and they told us of their difficulties and why they were being forced to go back, although they did not desire to do so. One mother said to me:
  "My case is typical of several that I know. I came down here with my husband in work, and he would have been able to send me money week by week. I was here only a couple of days when I received a letter from him that he had been thrown out of work and that hundreds of others like himself were in the same position. He is now quite unable to send me any money at all, because he must pay the rent, because of the labour exchange. He feels that he must pay the rent or otherwise he would be put out there. I am told that I have to go to the labour exchange, but there is no labour exchange here within miles of me and I can't get to it at all, but I have heard of people who have gone there, and this is their experience. The officer said to them:
  ' If your husband is out of work and signing, he is getting an allowance for you, and therefore, he must send to you that allowance that he is getting in Waltham-stow or any other area, and send it to you here so that you can live.' "
  Said this mother to me:
  "But suppose he does that. It is not possible to pay the rent at home and for me to live down here on the allowance that is given by the labour exchange. It is quite impossible for us to live in those circumstances. I am very happy in the home in which I am here, but I am compelled to go back to my husband because neither of us can afford to live and keep out of debt, and feed ourselves reasonably well."
  That is one of the problems, and it will have to be dealt with. It will right itself ultimately when all these men have secured, as I believe they will, other employment, but the position is in the meantime driving very many mothers back into the areas from which they came.
  838
  I went into Rutland, and I want to pay the highest possible tribute to everybody in the areas to which children from my area went. I found in every case the very greatest kindness to both mothers and children. There were unsatisfactory cases, but they were very small in number in comparison with the number which had been evacuated. Here is the position in Rutland. We interviewed the chairman of the county council and the medical officer. I did not see the medical officer myself, but he was interviewed. I saw the director of education also. They said:
  " We should like to provide for your mothers all the services that you provide for them in Walthamstow, but we cannot possibly do it. We have not such services here and we never have had. We have no equipment with which to give them the facilities that they have had in Walthamstow."
  We said:
  " These mothers have been in the habit of getting free milk and of being able to get cheap milk. They cannot get it down here, and they want to know the reason why."
  We have a contract which has run for many years for dried milk and other foods that have to be supplied to young children, and we supply to those children, and to the mothers for the children, dried milk, fresh milk and foods that they generally require, at primary or cost price. When they do as they did in Walthamstow, go into a shop and ask for some of these foods, they find it is impossible to pay for them. There was an experience in which a child of 12 years of age wanted repairs to his boots. The mother said:
  " I sent the boots to be repaired and I was charged 3s. 6d. I cannot possibly live and pay the high cost of repairs and all the other expenses in an area like this."
  That is one of the greatest difficulties that we have and I hope that the House and the Minister will consider it. If it is not considered and improved I am certain that you will not only have the 50 per cent. that has been referred to, but a very much higher percentage of our people, coming back into the towns again. There is the question of the family where there are school children and a mother with a young baby, or perhaps an expectant mother, billeted in the same house. Take the case where there is a child under school age and, in the same house, two other children of school age. The occupier of the house is getting 5s.

  839
  for the mother, 3s. for the child under school age, and 3s. also for the other children. That mother knows of other places close by where people could get 10s. 6d. and 8s. for those two children. I know that in the one case the children have to be fed and in the other case they have not, but there is no relation between the two scales. Unless some better system is created you will have mothers going back by thousands to the places whence they came.
  We went to see why they were coming back and to prevent them from doing so if we could, and we succeeded very well. We may have broken the regulations of the Minister; if so, I hope the Minister will forget what I am going to say. We have in Walthamstow a very good nursing service system. We sent the nurses to Rutland, as a present to the Rutland authority in return for the kind service they are providing for our children. We also sent down a midwife, because they have no such services in Rutland as we have. We are also sending this week a dental clinic, almost completely equipped, and the equipment for those nurses and the midwife to use. In Oakham a penny rate brings in £60, and over the whole county it brings in £2,000. We get far more than that in Walthamstow; and, of course, the authorities in Rutland are unable to provide the services that we should like to see given to our children. I think the Minister might advise larger local authorities to transfer their services where they can be effectively used for the children. And please pay some attention to the question of children who are over school age and children who are under school age in regard to billeting arrangements.
  I believe I was the first Member in this House to sugest billeting of children when the question of evacuation arose. There has been a good deal of talk about camps, hostels and that kind of thing. I saw one house in the area where I went in which the owner had not lived for a long time, and he wrote to say that we could have the servants' quarters and use them for the children. There are scores of houses empty. If you look at the "Times," the "Telegraph," "Country Life" and papers of that sort you will see advertisements of beautiful houses for sale. Why not buy them? They have been up for sale in some cases for quite a long time.
  840
  Prices ought to be tumbling down by now, and it would be advisable to consider the possibility of buying some of these houses in these areas where mothers could be accommodated under some kind of social arrangement, so that they could keep their own privacy and have some system of communal living that would enable them to dine together.
  There is another instance of a serious mistake being made. The children went away in charge of teachers, and there was a responsible person available in every case, but the mothers were handed over by one area to another and nobody was in charge of them. I met many London County Council mothers seeking somebody to whom to put their grievances and to obtain a remedy. I met women from Walthamstow in exactly the same position. They wanted some one to whom to tell their grievances so that they might get them remedied. They went to teachers, who said that while they were willing to do what they could, they had no authority, as they were sent to look after the school children. I went, with the authority of my local authority, to the reception area, and in company with the Director of Education, instructed a teacher, in places where there were mothers about, to look after the mothers and to forget the school children for the time being. These teachers were told that their job was to look after the mothers and to report to the authority from which they came. They were told that, where grievances could be remedied locally, they should be referred to the local officers and others concerned. If it could be arranged for somebody to look after mothers in the same way as the children are looked after, and to act as a sort of liaison officer between the sending and the receiving authority, somebody who would be kindly and considerate towards the mothers, I believe that it would do an immense amount of good.
  I express the hope that has already been expressed by many people, that those who have gone away and are in reasonably good circumstances will stay away. I believe that by£and£by they will be very glad to do so, but we must make the conditions somewhat better than they are at present. We should remedy the mistakes which have been made. I do not believe that there have been many mistakes considering the magnitude of the

  841
  problem. I am sure that if a little time is given, and there is kindliness, consideration and toleration among all the people concerned, this thing will right itself. I would ask the Minister and the Government to be generous in their treatment of mothers, if they desire them to remain away. They should encourage them to do so by making their conditions tolerable and assuring them that while they are in the country their husbands at home are getting on reasonably well.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: I am sure that we all welcome the last words uttered by the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Walthamstow (Mr. McEntee) appealing for a little consideration and toleration. I should like to pay a tribute to the speech delivered by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest) for bringing this Debate back to a sense of proportion, and for his most constructive suggestion, which, I hope, will be taken to heart. It looked as though we were going to develop into a state of assertion and contradiction between hon. Members. May I assure the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) and the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) that if we make any statement in regard to these children and their condition it is not that we desire to cast any reflection upon them. It is rather out of a sincere depth of pity that such things should exist.
  Mr. Stephen: From the statements made it seemed as if, generally speaking, the majority of them were verminous. That is not so. There are certain cases. I should like to say that we have never said one word against the people in the reception areas. It is always assumed that we were slandering and criticising them. We have nothing but admiration and respect for the kindliness of the people.
  Mr. Buchanan: But hon. Members have slandered the people who have been evacuated.
  Mr. Davies: I am glad that I gave way to the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen). I do not think there has been any exaggeration. The fact is that attention will always be directed to something that is wrong, and one outstanding case will be repeated from mouth to mouth. Unfortunately, these facts do exist, but
  842
  hon. Members opposite, I am sure, will recognise that we have nothing but sympathy for these people. I was glad to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland and to learn that steps will be taken in future to avoid the difficulties that have arisen. More especially before the children are evacuated, there should be medical inspection. I have in mind one instance where a child arrived in my county suffering from diphtheria. That is a very serious thing and ought not to have been allowed.
  Mr. Buchanan: Is it not a serious thing for the child to be sent away from home with diphtheria?
  Mr. Davies: Certainly. It is not only a serious matter for the children in the area to which the child was sent, but a serious matter for the child that has to travel when suffering from such a disease. It is also a serious matter for the mother who is left at home and may get a wire or some other message saying that her child is down with diphtheria, and perhaps she has not the wherewithal to enable her to travel. These things ought to be and can be avoided, except where some cataclysm comes and we have to evacuate wholesale. Another case where there was danger, was that of a child sent to Welshpool. On arrival it had to be taken immediately to a hospital and operated upon for appendicitis. I hope that as far as possible these things will be avoided in future.
  I want now to come to other matters with respect to the future of the children. It is no good simply going over the past. Most of the children who have been evacuated have come from town areas where the conditions of life, the school life etc. are entirely different from the conditions in the districts to which they have been sent. Their food has been different. I was only able to go down for a few hours on Saturday night and Sunday morning to my own county and there they were saying, with sorrow, that the food to which they were accustomed and which they gave to these children, when they arrived, the children refused to eat; they were not accustomed to it. Apparently, they were accustomed to tinned foods, or it might be fish and chips, and when they were given soups, lamb, potatoes and beans, they refused them. Some of the mites thought that

  843
  the beans were little black potatoes, seeing them for the first time, and they rejected them as something which they ought not to eat. That shows the difference between the way in which they have been brought up and the circumstances in which they now find themselves.
  More care will have to be exercised, More medical inspection will be wanted. I was glad to hear the hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest) suggest that there ought to be a mid-day meal. I and others were responsible for a very long inquiry into housing conditions in Wales and the conditions that cause tuberculosis. In particular we called attention to under-nourishment and to the great value of a mid-day meal for children. These little children may have been having a mid-day meal in the towns, they may have been attending school where a mid-day meal is provided, but no such provision is made in my county at the present time. The children have been accustomed to take sandwiches and a bottle of milk with them. They have suffered and are still suffering, but it is going to be fatal to children who have come from the towns to have to undergo such circumstances. I hope that the meal question will be attended to and not left to the local authorities. I hope there will be some direction and assistance from the Government where assistance is needed. The hon. Member for West Walthamstow mentioned the difference in rateable value and he gave a figure of £2,000 as being produced by a Id. rate. That is wealth untold to some of our counties. It is more than three times that of my own county, and I could mention four counties which together do not get much more than £2,000 from Id. rate. How are they to provide for the influx of these children and to provide the meals which are necessary for their health?
  The other important matter is that of shoes. The children from the towns are used to walking along the pavement; they have not got far to go and do not get wet. Their little shoes will do, but in the countryside they will need to have strong, heavy boots with nails. The little shoes which they wear are called slippers by the children of the countryside. If they are going to be out in the fields the soles will soon be off, and if they have
  844
  to go through the winter I hesitate to think what will be the effect upon them. There might be an epidemic which could be avoided with a little expense, and if expense has to be borne then the State should bear it. We are bearing a tremendous expenditure at the moment, but the State could not bear a better expenditure than that which will protect the health of these children who are the future generation. It is extraordinary that out of this cataclysm some good may come. For the first time in 100 years the little children of this country are being turned with their faces away from the horrid industrial districts towards the countryside. They will get a very warm welcome, the warmest hearts, every attention will be given to them, and I hope that they will bear the memory with them, and that there will be a drift back from the towns to the beautiful countryside.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. Sorensen: Like the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) I also serve on an authority which covers an evacuation area and a reception area. During the last 10 days I have taken upon my self not only to see evacuees off from the station and by omnibus, but I have also visited the villages in North Essex to which they have gone. That being so, I can perhaps speak with a certain amount of experience. Much of what has been said in the Debate about other parts of the British Isles applies also to my county. It may be a long way to In-verary, but it is not very far from my constituency of West Leyton to the villages in Northern Essex to which most of the children and mothers from my constituency have gone. It is quite useless to try to blame one section of the population, as though the country folk were all sinners, and the townsfolk all saints, or vice versa. There are difficulties in every section of the community, and I think we should approach the question in a social and humanistic spirit, recognising that this great evacuation of hundreds of thousands of human beings has been a colossal task. As far as the evacuation itself is concerned, it has gone off very well, but as far as the reception is concerned, there are still very great and serious difficulties indeed. I was very glad to receive from the Ministry of Health Circular 1871. I wish that it had been sent out before. Perhaps that

  845
  was impossible owing to the exigencies of the moment, but if only it had been sent out before the evacuation took place, I think that many of the difficulties would have been avoided or overcome.
  This evacuation scheme has revealed that basically the problem of living together is a huge psychological problem. There are, of course, economic problems, but basically it is a psychological problem, and that is why we should be hesitant about laying blame here or there. There have been occasions when there have been serious human faults that could have been overcome with a little more human kindness, a little more insight, or indeed a little more charity. I know full well, for instance, that in some of the villages I have visited, sometimes the evacuees have been to blame and sometimes the people in the places where they have had to be billeted have been to blame. I know of one case in which a woman intended to return to Leyton because, although she was living in a very fine house, much more spacious than any house in which she had lived before, she did not like the way in which the butler looked at her.
  Viscountess Astor: That is reason enough.
  Mr. Sorensen: The Noble Lady knows more about butlers than I do. Perhaps she also is frightened of her own butler, although I do not suppose she is frightened of anybody. However, that may appear a trivial matter, but really it is not so trivial. After all, one has to realise that although these working-class women may have been living in small and poor homes, they have been used to controlling those homes. They have had their own domestic and social happiness; they have arranged their own affairs in their own way; they have known the local institutions, desirable or otherwise; they have got into the habit of living in their own world. After all, a home is much more important to a woman than it is to a man. Then they are taken from their home and pushed into another little home, or it may be a large house, and naturally they feel like fishes out of water; and, try as they may, within 24 hours a strange homesickness comes over them. They have not always the necessary background which some alleged more cultural people possess. They find that habits to which they have been accus-
  846
  tomed cannot be pursued and even that work which they want to do cannot be done. I dare say that many women in large houses, for instance, would be much happier if only they could have some work to do, and that also obtains in smaller houses.
  That being so, we should appreciate that whether women have gone into big homes or three-roomed cottages, there are psychological problems, and it is useless to try to place the blame here or there. They are human problems which we have to try to solve. One thing that is essential is that you should recognise that we are dealing not merely with a mass but with human beings each of whom has her own idiosyncrasies and characteristics. In all our plans and schemes for a new society we tend, perhaps, to overlook that fact, and it is essential that we should recognise it in this instance or, whatever our sincere desires, they will not reach fulfilment. We want to remove from the mothers who have gone into these reception areas any idea that we have shoved them out in the countryside and left them there like some dump. Some have that impression. Last week I met several women sitting in the fields and I talked with them. They said that in that weather it was very nice, but one said, "What am I to do? My hostess told me immediately I had had my breakfast that she could not have me in her house as it was too small and I must clear out. I have been sitting in the cemetery and sitting here, but I am wondering when I am going to bath my baby."
  Stories have been told which each one of us could multiply indefinitely. We should appreciate that in some of these cases the best women in the world, whether the owners of little cottages or wealthier owners of large houses, or evacuated mothers, are finding a real difficulty in trying to adjust themselves to a new environment. I hope to go round the villages again and keep in constant touch with them. I believe all Members should try to keep in touch with their constituents, not merely politically but because we have a duty as human beings to other human beings. I hope I shall get my petrol ration increased in consequence. Perhaps the Minister of Health will take that into consideration. I will use it only for that purpose, if he will drop a hint in the right direction. One

  847
  could spend a great deal of time detailing a host of problems that one has come across in the course of one's human investigations. I dare say we shall have an opportunity of taking these problems, and perhaps suggesting solutions, to the Minister of Health and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education.
  Whether the war is going to last three years or much less, as we all fervently hope, it will be monstrous to suggest that either the children or the mothers are to be pushed out into the countryside, sometimes miles away, and then be told they will not see their children and their husbands for months and months to come. That in itself has aroused a large number of real human difficulties. Think of the menfolk who may be serving and may come back on leave and perhaps find their wives miles away and their children scattered. What is going to happen in those circumstances? I strongly support the plea that special transport facilities shall be organised to enable fathers to visit their children and husbands their wives, and perhaps on occasion wives to visit their children in some other part of the country. I suggest that provision should be made for communal centres wherever practicable. I saw at Dunmow a disused post office taken over and roughly adapted for the use of the women in the locality. I do not know who was responsible for initiating it, but I compliment him sincerely. At the same time, this rather derelict building, festooned with cobwebs and smelling musty and fusty, with 20 or 30 wailing children, was hardly the place for women to get out of the pouring rain. I suggest that there should be a drive towards the establishment of communal centres, attractively fitted out, in which mothers could rest with their children, and so relieve the burden on the hostesses and also have opportunities to meet their kindred and friends from their own districts.
  Much remains to be done in the provision of social services. Many of these women have been used to relatively adequate social services in their own areas and miss them in the rural areas. That gap ought to be filled. My hon. Friend the Member for West Walthamstow (Mr. McEntee) suggested that some large houses should be rented. I go further and say they should be commandeered, at least for the period of the war. In the
  848
  national interest we are commandeering human lives. Surely if there are large houses vacant in the country, or boarding-houses and hotels vacant along the sea-coast, they should be taken over by the nation for the nation's mothers and children and fitted up properly for the use of those who are bearing very heavy burdens at the present time. I, as the representative of West Leyton and my colleagues in that district, do not want it to appear that we have lost contact with the people who have gone away. Technically our responsibility is ended, but morally our responsibility remains. As a county councillor I recognise that in many of the reception areas co-ordination and co-operation are needed and I would urge the consideration and co-operation are needed and I would urge the consideration of a scheme by which the evacuating authorities and the authorities in the reception areas and the county council should collaborate, so that financial and other responsibilities could be shared and the highest results achieved.
  In that way a great deal more could be done and unnecessary friction avoided. We do not want to set the country folk against the town folk. They are the same people, they belong to the same country and they share the same burdens. We want, if we can, to gain something of real value for our country out of this terrible tribulation. There are difficulties and sorrows almost indescribable at the present time and perhaps more are to follow, but, at least, let us resolve that something will be gained from it all for the coming generation. I believe that on the lines I have just indicated we can approach a solution of this problem.
  8.34 p.m.
  Viscountess Astor: This has been in some ways a very helpful Debate. It has shown that the whole House wants to settle this question and all the speakers have tried to be constructive. It has also shown us what a terrific problem this is. I agree with those who have said that the country has met the situation magnificently up to now. I do not propose to speak about bad cases or good cases. Like other hon. Members, I could give chapter and verse for appalling cases, some from the point of view of the hostesses and others from the point of view of the guests. All goes to show that this is a psychological problem and

  849
  can only be faced in the spirit in which we hope to win the war, the spirit of all working together and trying to see what is good, instead of trying to magnify what is evil. The more I see of human nature, the more I realise its great possibilities, and the more I know that it is a beautiful thing when it is touched by the spiritual. We have now a chance of making a better England out of this appalling tragedy through which we are passing.
  I will not detail my experiences. Our home has been very happy, and we have had many children. The children are very happy, and we have a nursery school. When I was motoring the other day from London to Devonshire, I saw happy children in all the villages, having a. good time. The real problem is that of the mothers. The hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) opened the subject very well and said it was very difficut for women to share a kitchen. It was put to me very well the other day that two women cannot share a sink, and that is true. It is much more difficult for the women than for the men. The home means so much more to the woman, and there is the tragedy of having to go away and leave their husbands and not know what their husbands are doing, whether they are getting their food and so on. A girl spoke to me the other day—she was a proper Cockney—and said, "I am not going to stay down there, and if you knew my next door neighbour, you would not stay there either."
  Mr. Ede: The suspicion is not always on that side, because I have a letter from a husband who complains that his wife and the woman next door have been billeted on a couple of bachelors.
  Viscountess Astor: I am not blaming the men. I know of a case of a couple of women who will not even look after their children, but who go straight to the public house and try to get to know the soldiers. In many ways it is amusing, but it is also very tragic. I know what a home means, particularly when you are worried. I was only saying to-day to someone, "It is a curious thing that the more you are frightened the more you want to get back into your own home." It is an extraordinary thing that at this time I badly want to get back into my own home and stay there, and if I feel that, how much more will those women
  850
  feel it who have been sent to the country and do not know their way about. The women have been magnificent. I know a woman with a large house who had 60 blind people sent to her and 82 children, and she has been magnificent— a Christian woman trying to put her religion into practice. We could all quote beautiful cases, and we could all quote very horrible cases, but we want to help the Minister and to be constructive.
  We have to realise that there are now in London—and I suppose this applies also to Glasgow, Liverpool, and other cities—something like 30,000 young children under five years old, and I want to ask the Minister a question about them. After an air-raid warning there may be terror among the mothers of these children. Only the other day, after an alarm, there came to one of my friends in the East End two mothers in a hysterical state, with two children, three and four years old. It is not my suggestion, but that of one of the ablest women in the country, a woman who has made a life study of children and how to deal with them, and she suggests that it would be a good thing if a room were provided, say, at a first-aid post, as a shelter for children in every borough. If there were an air raid the police could take the children to the shelter, and next morning, when matters had been cleared up, the mothers would know where to find them. I think that is a good suggestion. We ought to have these shelters for children in every borough, and food and someone in attendance should be provided.
  After an air raid we shall find these women wanting to have their children back in the country, but, as hon. Members pointed out, people in the country will not want them. How are we to deal with those cases? I am concerned more with the children of from two to five. There are a great many women who will not leave their homes, no matter how bad conditions are. They want to stay by their men; and in many cases I think they are right. If I could get my children into the country I would rather be at home in order to keep the home going. What are we to do with these children? It is not really practicable to take a large house and put them in it as has been suggested. The difficulty about staffing is enormous, for the children must have some trained person to look after them. At our place now we have 82 children, and you never

  851
  heard such a noise. The zoo is restful in comparison. One mother told us that her child would not drink anything but strong tea and that it had outbreaks of bad temper. We put her under a trained person, and within 24 hours that child was drinking milk and did not lose its temper. That was because it was put under a trained person.
  Whatever we do we must save the children because they are our most precious asset, but we have to be practicable. There are a great many people who would not mind taking four or five children if they were in the care of a responsible person. I suggest that we should appeal for hostesses who would take children between two and five with one woman to look after them. If we did that I am sure we should have plenty of people ready to take care of them. I was reading of an old lady who was so terrified about having a lot of children being billeted on her that she committed suicide. People are really very frightened at the idea of having children billeted on them. If we had hostesses who would be willing to take children with an attendant, emergency open-air nursery schools should be set up where the children could go during the day and have their midday meals. I hope that the Minister will consider this plan. It may be asked, who is to look after the children? There could be selected mothers, and one mother if she had a child could take three or four others with her. One of my sons has a policeman's wife billeted on him, and she has come down with two of her own children and five others. She looks after all of them and there is no trouble. There are a lot of women who have one child who are well equipped to look after other children.
  Do not think that because a woman has got a child she is necessarily a mother. There are many mothers who never had a child, and many women with children do not know anything about being mothers. It is not a question of the working class or other class. A lady who was talking to me about the scheme said many women who have one or two children of their own are capable of looking after four or five children. Their husbands are going to be called up and they will have nothing to do, and they would be just the kind of people to look after
  852
  the children. To my mind it is the most helpful scheme put forward, and I think it would be accepted in all parts of the country. As to the women who want to get to the country with their children, I think the suggestion of providing for them in hostels which was mentioned by an hon. Member is a very sound proposal. Let us take big houses or hotels and put them in, with a matron or somebody to look after them. All the experienced people who have had anything to do with this business have come to that conclusion. It is no good trying to billet them on other working women, or in places where they will be frightened of the butler. When I was young and went visiting at various houses where there was a very smart butler I was never frightened of anybody but the butler.
  Mr. G. Griffiths: You have got out of that a long time since.
  Viscountess Astor: Yes, but it is not such a long time since. If the scheme is reorganised I hope that the Minister will be able to get the children under school age into homes such as I have suggested. They ought not to be left with the others, because they are a completely different problem. There is enough good will in the country, there are enough volunteers, the desire is there, and what we have to do is to co-ordinate all our efforts.
  I hope we shall also consider one other thing, the provision of nursery schools. There is the Deptford Training School for Nursery School Teachers. At that school there are 130 or so resident students, some of whom have had two years' training, some one year's, and others who are still in the entrants' stage. I went there to-day to ask the superintendent how many of those girls are going in for war work. She said only four, that all the others looked upon becoming nursery school teachers as their vocation and wanted to go on with it. This place is going to be a college. I offered our house for it, but as a matter of fact there is a large empty house next door which is much better. If we put the college there then hutments could be built around it and children of from two to five could be sent there and would be under the care of these trained girls. They are girls who are paying for their own tuition. It would not be an expensive plan, and it would be a good one. We might find

  853
  other colleges where we could put other children, and girls from this training centre could look after them and meanwhile would be completing their course at school.
  I am sure that the Government are doing all they can and that the country is doing all it can, and I feel that it is a tribute to the House of Commons that we have had such a constructive Debate, with nobody trying to score points, but everybody realising the difficulties of the problem and grateful to those who are trying to deal with them so well. But let us always remember that war is hard on women; it must always be harder on women. We may be just at the beginning of our troubles and nobody knows what we are to go through, but if we realise what can be done for the young children of this country then I feel that the war will not have been fought in vain. All my public life I have striven for these open-air nursery schools, because I realise that there are certain mothers who will never learn how to look after children, and there are certain children who, if they are kept by themselves, will always be problem children. If you put them into nursery schools you will be able to build up a much better condition of things and we shall never hear again of the kind of children who have been referred to to-day or of the social problems about which we have all heard, but which we never face until a crisis comes. I hope that hon. Members will consider this Debate and will keep up the spirit of it. We all want to help the Minister of Health as much as we can, but we must get to work at once. I ask hon. Members to consider the suggestions which I have made for clearing stations; second, in respect of the children going to school; and, third, nursery schools. I apologise to the House for taking up so much time.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. Buchanan: I rise for a few moments to say a word or two in this Debate and I trust I may be excused if I make a brief reference to an earlier incident. An hon. Member on the other side of the House made a certain statement about Glasgow children and their conditions. In this Debate I do not wish to attack or to criticise anybody in the country districts which have taken children in, but I resent remarks from any hon. Member in this House about Glasgow children,
  854
  made without differentiation, as though all those children were verminous and unclean. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Even if the hon. Member did not mean it he made to the House the statement, "Glasgow children come." There was no limitation or differentiation but just a bold sweeping statement.
  I do not say that every child in Glasgow is clean or that every child in country districts is clean. If we were debating this matter in peace-time the best way in which to examine the facts would be to appoint a committee of inquiry to go into the evidence and get to know what has happened; but you cannot do that in the state in which we now are. I resent those statements, as I would resent the sweeping statements made here attacking the towns that have taken on the job. I resent deeply all the sweeping statements made as though the whole of my statements were unfounded. It may well be, too, that some of these terribly poor people were in that condition, but I would say to the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply that this is a thing that some of us have seen for years. You have no right to expect, nor have I, great people from the conditions in which they are living. If they were great people it would be an indictment of them. Back in the places from which I come, you can find 10 or 12 people living in a single room, and living in places in which country people would often not keep their cattle. What right have we to cast terrible reflections because in a moment, and without any notice or previous gathering together, these people were ordered to go to another town?
  What are the facts? They are that almost within a day masses of people were asked to move. It is very easy for the comfortable people to criticise the others, but let them try, upon an income of say 32s. a week, to keep five people living in a slum. The clothes are bound to be bad and the whole thing is bound to be that way. I am amazed, not that some were bad but that so few were like that. I went round expecting to see numbers of people like that. I fully expected it, and I say frankly that I was staggered at the comparative few there were. I trust that we shall hear the last of the sweeping assertions made if this House, as if all big towns like

  855
  Liverpool or Glasgow were inhabited by dirty people.
  I would say one Or two words on another theme. I agree with the Noble Lady; I do not believe that you will ever solve the problem by putting two married women to live together in the same house. When I got married, I could not at first get a house. My wife went to live with her sister. Both of them were kindly, decent women, but when I had been a month in the house I was glad to get out of it. They get on well together in the ordinary way, but, with them living in the same house, it was terrible. Nor do I think that you can get an elderly woman, who has already reared a family, to start looking after another family very easily. You cannot blame her for that. I have no objection to a medical inspection of children. The Socialist movement has stood for many years for medical examination of children. But I object to the suggestion that there should be medical examination of certain children only. I object to there being medical examination of the children and no examination of the houses to which they are to go. If there is to be an examination, it must apply to all children and to all the places to which they have to go.
  There is one problem which I am afraid will arise, and it applies to England as well as to Scotland. Some of my folk are scattered over Aberdeenshire, and I have been to see them. This is the position. The population of a comparatively small town has been more than doubled. I am afraid that some kinds of disease will occur in winter, such as whooping cough, measles and so on. Epidemics may break out in these towns that are now over-populated, and there will be neither the hospitals nor proper medical equipment available. Then there is the question of payment. If it was a question only of the children, I think the problem could be solved comparatively easily, but when the women are away also there are special problems which will arise. It has been constantly happening that people who are taking the children are finding it difficult to make ends meet. It is not a paying proposition, and if they are doing the job properly it may be a losing proposition.
  Take the case of a farm labourer. He is not over-burdened with money and he
  856
  has a wife and family to keep. Another family is put into his house. In some cases people are actually asking those who have been evacuated for extra money. The evacuated people do not know whether they should pay the money or not. I wish the Minister of Health would issue some clear instruction about the sums which are to be paid. Then there is this other question. Suppose there are five children living in a house and two of them have unemployed fathers. Two of the fathers are unemployed, and the other three fathers are working and are not badly off. The children of the fathers who are working are receiving 2s. a week pocket-money in each case. The fathers who are not working cannot send pocket-money. It would be illegal because they have only the Unemployment Assistance Board allowance. The children with pocket-money can buy oranges and extra things that all children like to buy. I used to like sweet balls when a boy. What child does not like to have a penny or two-pence to spend? There is nothing wrong in that. I have seen some children with pocket-money and other children with none. The Unemployment Assistance Board ought to make a small payment to enable these children at least to have a little pleasure in these terrible times.
  I am not keen to keep mothers in other people's homes. I would much sooner that some other method with which to deal with them were adopted. The Minister of Health has carried out a big scheme. I know there are cases of women and children who have returned to their homes, but I heard of a case in which a mother and four children did not wish to come back again. They had found a good home with good food and clothes and did not want to come back to their miserable slum conditions. No one with good food and clothing would want to come back. Numbers of evacuated people were sent to the homes of old folk. An hon. Gentleman criticised the woman who had seven children to look after. The woman had an elderly daughter, but neither had any idea of looking after seven children. One of the women had a nervous breakdown and asked the parents to take the children home because they could not look after them. I am not blaming the Minister or the local authority in this matter. In moving millions of

  857
  people you are bound to have these kinds of things arising, and all that I ask the Minister is that he should allow sufficient for each child on which to live. At Brodick in Arran it was said that there was no cobbler to cobble the shoes. The Glasgow child gets his boots cobbled round the corner cheaply. Good boots are absolutely essential in the country towns, especially in view of the coming winter.
  My complaint about the speech of the hon. Member opposite is that his statements were far too wide and sweeping. I do not deny that certain things have occurred, but that is not confined to any one section. When statements are made reflecting on this class of people, one ought to recollect that the fathers of many of these youngsters are on the march in France. It is bad enough to have children in that condition, without reading statements about them when you are on the march. Let the hon. Member be a little more tolerant, and let his constituents be a little more tolerant. Let him and other hon. Members come to Glasgow and see the conditions from which the children come. I hope that one result that will emerge from this business will be that people will get to know something more about the slums, and that they will seek to end the slums of Glasgow and other cities. I hope that people will take part in a drive to end the slums. I plead that something should be done about the congested districts, and I would ask the Minister to give these people some decent amount of money to live on. It is a terrible thing that the Unemployment Assistance Board seems to have learned very little in the last few weeks. An unemployed man is left with 16s. a week, out of which he has to pay rent and feed himself, while his wife and children are away. It simply cannot be done and the wife will come back.
  I wish the Minister would look more into these facts and learn from them. Let him imagine himself in the position of two of these women. One says: "My man is soon to go. The country is going 1o take him. Surely, before they take him they might give my children a better chance than they have got." The second woman says: "Millions can be given here and there. Millions can be poured out, and people can be making millions. Surely, a little might be spared from those millions to raise my standard of life."
  858
  When I hear these pleas, I find it difficult to answer. I would urge the Minister to say at once that the financial arrangements will be made clear. Let every person who is evacuated know what they have to pay or what they need not pay, and let every person in a reception area who takes a child or a mother, know what they will receive in money from day to day and week to week. Let all these things be made clear, and let us see to it that every child is given food, clothing and shelter in the best possible form.
  In all these things there are problems. If we have no air raids in the course of a few weeks or months, more people will come back, because they will think that they are safe. They are not to be blamed if they think that. If, however, an air raid comes, people will probably scamper here and there. I am not sure about these things. People react in a hundred different ways, and it may well be that in an air raid people will act differently from what we think. My appeal to the Minister is that he should not be parsimonious. Let him not be mean. There is a feeling among our people that if you are a munitions man, if you have anything to do with the making of munitions, you can get millions. If you are unfortunate enough to be outside you get nothing. The right hon. Gentleman has capacity. Let him use it and see that in this time of trouble the mothers of the land, who are wondering what is happening to their sons and husbands in France, have not the added problem of poverty which we can well avoid.
  9.11 p.m.
  Mr. Roland Robinson: I too have just returned from a visit to an important reception area where I have studied something of the varied human problems of pressed by the untiring devotion to their evacuation. I have been profoundly in-work of those who have had to handle the problems of evacuation during the past fortnight. I must admit, too, that many of the people in the reception areas have been profoundly shocked by the condition of some of the children who have come to their homes, but out of evil may come good, and when the war is over I believe it will result in an improved social conscience which will result in the amelioration of the condition of these people. During the past fortnight there has been a real upheaval in the lives of all people

  859
  concerned in evacuation. There were bound to be many difficulties, but they can besolved by the spirit of give and take. I think that one of the problems was mentioned by the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), who said that people going into new homes in reception areas were not going as extra persons to do work. I quite agree. Equally, they are not going just for a holiday. They are going to join in a new home in a new life, and the problem can best be solved by everyone pulling his or her weight and looking after themselves.
  There have been a large number of ill-assortments in the way children have been placed. I have come across a good many cases where perhaps unruly children have been placed with old couples who cannot look after them. I think we should try and arrange that children should go to the homes of people who can give them the care that they need. Some children may need a little more discipline than others. I have often wondered what progress has been made in the building of camps which were intended for the use of certain of these children, and perhaps the Minister will tell us what has been done, because I know some children who would have been much happier in camp than living with older people. One suggestion I would make is that the Minister should set up some scheme of co-ordination whereby the local authority in the reception area should be constantly in touch with the local authority of the area from which the children come. The authority is losing many of its children, and may have many things which it might easily pass on for the use of its own children in another town. I hope the Minister will consider whether such a thing is not possible.
  Another problem that came forcibly to my attention was the amount of the allowances given for the maintenance of these children. I agree with the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), because time and time again people have come to me and pointed out that the allowances were inadequate for them to maintain the children, and I believe that in practically every home the people, patriotically, are over spending the allowances which are given. We must face the fact that these children who go to the seaside or into the country for the first time are getting the benefit of fresh air and are acquiring
  860
  bigger and better appetites than they have had before. I have noticed a little unrest in cases where children coming from homes that were comparatively well off have been billeted on poor people who could ill afford to look after them. Last week-end some of the people from the evacuated areas came in their cars to see their children, and yet they are doing nothing to help to maintain the children in their new homes. I wonder whether it would be possible for the Minister to make an appeal to those who can afford to help their children in their new homes to do so.
  There is another question that I want to raise about billeting which does not concern children. There is to be a great deal of billeting of civil servants during the next few months. At the moment the Government have large powers of requisition, and the requisitioning officers are taking away accommodation in large numbers of residential hotels. They are taking the whole of the accommodation, they are putting in civil servants who require a certain standard of accommodation, and they are doing this on what they admit to be a non-profit basis. I do not want to say a great deal about this, but the people who run the hotels are doing it as a business, and if their hotels are filled with non-profit paying civil servants, the whole of their living is gone, they will not be able to pay their rent and rates, and they will not be able to feed themselves and maintain their own families. To my mind, the powers of requisitioning have been used a little severely. Many hotels have been dosed at 24 hours' notice, and there has been no real reason for this because nobody has been near the hotels for a week, and they have been shut. There are many people to whom hotels are their homes. I know of people who have been living in hotels for 25 years, in the same place and in the same room, and they have been turned out at one day's notice and have had nowhere to go. I wonder whether the Minister could give some attention to this problem, for it is a very real one. These people have nowhere to-go in their own towns because all the hotels have been taken over and the homes and lodging houses are filled with evacuees. In cases where requisitioning is done, I suggest to the Minister that the Government should not close more of the hotel than is necessary. There are many

  861
  hotels which have restaurants, grills and bars which open on to the streets and are intended to serve residents of the town. I feel it is unnecessary that that portion of the premises should be closed down, because it could not be used for Government offices.
  Another point I wish to make has reference to the education of the children who are moved into the reception areas. In a town such as my own, where we get 50,000 or 60,000 children, we shall be faced with a vast problem in education, and yet at the same time we find that the representative of the Office of Works who is responsible for requisitioning is taking away the technical colleges and some of the schools for use as Government offices. Surely, such a situation is impossible, and it must rapidly be realised that these technical colleges are needed. Although the Government may take them now, they will have to give them up a little later on. Would it not help if the Government would say definitely now that all these schools will be needed and that they cannot be requisitioned? I have made these few points as a practical contribution. It may be that the Minister cannot give a definite answer to each point to-night, but I have no doubt that he will bear them in mind and do his best.
  9.19 p.m.
  Mr. Tomlinson: There are one or two questions which I should like to put to the Minister in connection with this matter and what I would call the associated matter to which the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. R. Robinson) has called attention. We are all familiar with the difficulties of evacuation, and one need not go over all the matters that have been raised to-night. If you took four Members from the House and compelled them to live together for a week, you would have the same sort of atmosphere as you are getting in some of the houses that we are speaking about. It is all a question of temperament. It seems to me that what we have to realise is that this, like all other wars, is developing into a war of anomalies and, unless we tackle them at the beginning, we are face to face with problems which will grow in intensity and make each more difficult to solve. In a small urban area what is the thing that is rankling most in the minds of those who are called upon to face difficulties as the result of evacua-
  862
  tion through the changed circumstances? It is that they realise that this is a job that has to be done in the interest of the country. They are attempting to do it under difficulties. They are making attempts to reconcile what is almost irreconcilable. They are coming into contact with two distinct personalities and they are attempting to overcome it because they know we are in a cleft stick. Next door to them is an individual who is engaged in Civil Defence, for the same purpose, and, for that reason, he is excused the responsibility of taking in children. Yet he is being paid a very good wage, and this person is having to put up with inconvenience at his own expense.
  There are anomalies of that kind which spread right through the village and create in the minds of the people a feeling of dissatisfaction, and it is someone's business to straighten them out. I thought I knew a few of them, but I have learnt of a few more since I came into the House. I know something about anomalies with regard to the children in the home. I know something about a mother overcoming some difficulty by taking children, and because she has taken them, and is living with them, is penalised to the extent of 5s. 6d. or 7s. 6d., as the case may be, because she has gone to the inconvenience of living with her own children in another area That cannot be reconciled with reason. It might be reconciled with the Minister's circular, but that is another thing. Think of the difficulties that you place, not only in the way of the local authority in a reception area but of the education committee at the same time, and keep at the back of your mind this question of anomalies. Take the question of the teacher evacuated along with the children, planked down in a strange place. It is as difficult for a teacher to settle down in a country district as it is for the children. She gets 5s. billeting allowance. The billeting allowance for a civil servant is 21s. I am not arguing whether 5s. is enough or 21s. too much, but there is no reason on earth why there should be that discrimination. It cannot be justified and it is an anomaly which will have to be straightened out before you will get anything like agreement amongst the people that we are doing our best to overcome the difficulty.

  863
  What is the position with regard to education committees? I was interested to hear our Scottish friend talking of the steps that have been taken to send the children out adequately provided with clothing. That is due solely to the fact that the Scottish education committees have had the power since 1908 to provide footwear and clothing for necessitous school children, a power that we have been pleading in England for some years and been unable to get. The Government have refused it within the last six months. When the question of evacuation was under discussion it was asked whether, in the provision of the kit that would be necessary in case evacuation took place, local education authorities would be allowed to exercise the powers that are exercised in Scotland, and we received a negative reply from the Front Bench. Within the last six weeks that answer has been given to a question. I know scores of people in the most poverty-stricken village in Lancashire, men and women working in the cotton mills, who have gone out and bought clothes for these children. I could take hon. Members to little shops in Great Harwood which have been sold out of children's clothing for the first time since the slump began, because the kind-hearted weavers of that village were rigging out the children. The shops have had a boom, but it will not last for long. The local education authorities should have had the power to see to it that the children who were being evacuated, were fitted out decently.
  A question has been raised about children being in an unfit condition. That is not unusual. Reference has also been made to verminous children. It is only to be expected that a percentage of children will be verminous having regard to the conditions under which they live. With the school medical service inadequately staffed as it has been for years was it to be expected that when a crisis of this kind arose we should be in a position to see that all the children were medically examined? It is a physical impossibility. Only four times during the school life of the child is there a compulsory medical examination. It is only possible to have that number of examinations with the existing staff. I say to the Minister: Do not ask the education committees to perform impossibilities. The
  864
  Government are putting upon the education committees in the evacuating areas and particularly in the receiving areas, problems such as they have not been called upon to face for years and at the same time, the authorities are being treated by the Treasury in an anomalous way.
  The Home Secretary yesterday suggested that nothing had arisen in the last three weeks to make necessary a reconsideration of grants to education committees. It may be that in the mind of a distinguished civil servant, a war does not count for much, but to me it is a very serious thing and one thing that has taken place in that time is that war has broken out in Europe. I attended a meeting of the Lancashire County Education Committee at which there were instructions from the Board in regard to another part of the district, namely, the neutral areas. We are faced in Lancashire with an expenditure of £250,000 for the provision of shelters for school children in the neutral areas, and for that we get 50 per cent. That is another of the anomalies which will have to be straightened out. How can you expect the co-operation of education authorities, already faced with all the educational problems, if you confront them with a situation in which a shilling will have to be added to the rates not in one area, but in scores of areas to cope with the requirements of the Board? It just cannot be done.
  Someone will have to begin to straighten out these anomalies at once. You have a man working all day in the mill and in the interests of the nation he goes on doing voluntary service until 12 o'clock at night. That man is earning 38s. a week if he is doing well. The man next door on Civil Defence all day is earning £3 a week. There is something wrong somewhere, and it is an anomaly that cannot be justified. Until you straighten out the anomalies, a good deal of the dissatisfaction which has become prevalent, particularly in the smaller villages, will remain. I, therefore, hope that an attempt will be made to straighten out these anomalies,
  9.31p.m.
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Much that I would like to have said has been said by others, but there are one or two points that I would like to submit. One thing has appeared from almost every

  865
  speech to-night, and that is appreciation of the wonderful spirit which has been shown by everybody concerned in this evacuation. I also would like to pay a tribute to the teachers who have gone down with the children for the wonderful work which they have done. The Minister and the Under-Secretary have been bombarded during the last three or four days, I suppose, with queries, complaints, and examples by Members on both sides of the House, and it would only be fair to pay a tribute also to their courtesy, patience, and approachability. This scheme of moving vast numbers of people, which, as has already been said will have great and beneficial effects in town and country knowing one another better, can only be really successful, in my opinion, if it is kept on a voluntary basis. The moment you bring in compulsion, as you may have to do, and as I would certainly deplore, you will undo a lot of the kindly spirit and good feeling which exist at present and which, in my opinion, it is essential to maintain.
  Members of this House have given their experiences in either evacuation or reception areas. I would like to say a word about a reception area which I have had an opportunity of studying during the last few days when the House has not been in session. You cannot judge the whole of the reception areas on the same lines; the conditions are totally different. In this particular area, a small country town in a rather beautiful part of the country, the main livelihood of many people in the small houses and cottages is the letting of rooms to summer visitors and others, and it is their only means of livelihood and support. When this evacuation scheme came into operation many of the summer visitors were there, and although accommodation had been promised by the householders it was impossible in many cases to provide it because their premises were already taken. Owing to delays and other causes, there came down a large stream of voluntary evacuees, self-evacuees, who obtained a certain proportion of the remaining accommodation. In spite of that, loyally and most generously, these people maintained the accommodation which they had placed at the disposal of the voluntary committees for children and evacuated mothers and children. One thing emerges from this Debate, and that is that the
  866
  problem of the evacuated school child is hardly a problem at all. There are all sorts of cases of over-exuberance of spirit on the part of town children. I have had brought to my notice cases of great mischief and in some cases more than great mischief, but all these matters can be dealt with by a spirit of give and take in the home, and these children can well be assimilated into the different houses which are prepared to take them.
  I cannot help thinking, however, that the experience of every Member who has spoken has been the same in this respect, that you cannot solve the problem of the evacuated mother and child by billeting them, either voluntarily or forcibly, upon people in the reception areas. The Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor) said that two women cannot use one sink. That is true, and I believe the only way in which we can solve the question is either by taking hostels or big houses or, better still, by building suitable camps. Another aspect of the question is the home life of these people when they are evacuated. It is a serious problem which has to be dealt with. It may be that these mothers and children, when they are evacuated into the country, are put into a house which is already occupied, and when the husband, who may be at the Front, comes home on leave, he wants to take up some form of home life. It is essential, therefore, that wherever mothers and children are put it should be possible for the husbands to go home and visit their families and have some home life. No husband can go home and be a guest in an already overcrowded small house. It makes an impossible problem, not only for his wife, but for the family who have taken them in. If a voluntary system is in operation the difficulty might be got over, but once compulsion is imposed the situation when the husband comes home will be intolerable. The only way in which that problem can be met is by the provision of camps or by the building of hostels or the occupation of unoccupied houses.
  Attention has been called to the refugees who are going back and the point has been rightly made that it is not in their interest to go back having once been evacuated. There is another aspect of the case which the Minister should note. In an area such as that of which I have

  867
  knowledge great efforts were made by people to take in mothers and children. They then found that a large number of them, dissatisfied perhaps with the conditions, with the intense quiet of the country, or the facilities for amusement and those things to which they were accustomed, decided to go home. The effect on those who had given them voluntary accommodation is disastrous. They feel that they and the community have had to pay for the evacuation of these people and that they have welcomed them and done their best for them. They then see these people go back, knowing that in the event of an air raid they will want to be evacuated again. The Minister will have to consider putting some time limit to the evacuation of children and mothers with children so that after a certain time they cannot expect to be billeted in rural districts. I pay my tribute to the kindliness, the tact and the real human sympathy that have been shown by people in the rural districts.
  There are difficulties, and I give an example in the district of which I have some knowledge. Three mothers, each with a small child, came down from a certain part of London. They had always been friends and had lived in the same tenement dwelling. When they arrived they flatly refused to be separated. There was no billeting house big enough to take three mothers and three children, although there were people able and willing to take them in separately For the time being they had to be put with others, for whom no accommodation could immediately be found, in a large empty house sufficiently furnished for a temporary lodging though not a place in which they could settle down.
  After great difficulty the evacuating committee found three cottages alongside each other in which these three women and their children could be taken. The dwellers in those cottages were only too anxious to help them. They made special efforts to provide a tea, so that when the visitors arrived they would find everything warm and friendly. At the moment when they were to change from their temporary dwelling to these cottages the women again flatly refused to go. I can understand their point of view and their feelings, but the effect upon the three cottagers who had offered hospitality was disastrous. They turned round and said,
  868
  "If that is the way our offer is to be treated it really is not fair." Upon their own volition the three mothers with their children have since gone back to London. That kind of thing is disastrous, and it is clear that the only way to deal with that class of case is by building camps where the mothers could still be together and where they could make their own small community.
  I am sorry the hon. Member for one of the Leyton Division is not in his place, because he raised a very important point-Having once got these mothers and children into country districts where conditions are so different from what they have been accustomed to in the crowded cities the greatest possible care should be taken to help them. He pleaded for welfare committees to look after them. In the area of which I have special knowledge such action has already been taken. Every one of the mothers and children is visited every day by some lady member of the welfare committee. A reading room has been provided for the mothers, be cause it is obvious that they and their children will overfill these little houses and will want some quiet place to which they can go to talk and read and sew. I think an effort should be made to put one room aside for this purpose in every reception area. In the case to which I have referred a room has been most generously donated by the Society of Friends. It is also most important that there should be people who will go round among the evacuees to find out their difficulties and help the mothers with questions which may arise about their children and their divided home life.
  Then there is the necessity to have careful medical supervision of the children. I do not want to quote instances of families from other areas who have been in a distressing and most disgraceful condition. That is something which everybody in this House deplores, but the effect upon the rural areas is something which must be taken into account. It is essential that so far as is humanly possible no child or mother likely to be suffering from a communicable disease should be put into one of these village homes. If they are verminous, well that is not their fault; their habits have been bad owing to the deplorable conditions under which they have to live. But in the case of disease the mother in the rural area will in defence of her own

  869
  child close the door. Voluntary effort will finish and then we shall have compulsion, and there will be many mothers in the rural areas who will say, "I would sooner be fined and sent to gaol than expose my children in my cottage to this risk." That is why it is absolutely essential that the greatest care should be taken over the medical inspection. Many cases of children who are verminous or of bad habits can best be dealt with by some form of camp, but you are running a serious risk of alarming the rural population and of their feeling that, whether they like it or not, people whose condition might be offensive might be forced into their homes to the danger and detriment of their own children, notwithstanding that they are only too anxious to help such people. That applies only to children with mothers, because in the main the scholastic system of this country ensures that children are well looked after and are healthy.
  There is another point which I would bring to the notice of the Minister. It would be very dangerous to do too much centralisation of hospitals or maternity facilities because communication with the country areas may be difficult because of the shortage of petrol, and because of the strangeness of surroundings. It would be far better to have a larger number of maternity homes in reception areas than to have one or two large ones to which people can be sent. It is far better to get people split up and well looked after in the areas in which they have made their homes than to move them again, because already they will have been moved from their surroundings. That is something which is very difficult for them. If, upon the arrival of a baby, the mother is to be moved again, away from the friends she has made in the reception area, an intolerable strain will be created. There should be a number of small maternity homes in the rural areas so that further movement of the population can be avoided. In small cottages which were somewhat overcrowded before the evacuation took place a large number of mothers will be having babies of their own. It will, therefore, be impossible to give them other children to look after. The accommodation will not go round.
  One thing which has stood out in this Debate has been that every hon. Member desires to help. We do not gain by
  870
  shutting our eyes or our ears to the difficulties which exist. There is no difficulty which cannot be overcome in this, evacuation scheme, but I believe that the rural areas would be reassured if some pronouncement could be made by the Minister that, so far as humanly possible, there would be a time limit to their liability. We are fighting this war for the preservation of liberty and we have to-give up much of our personal liberty, but in this evacuation scheme you touch something which is very near to the hearts of the people, particularly if the scheme becomes compulsory, and that is the sanctity of their own homes, however big or small the homes may be. That is. something very important in our national life. I suggest that a time limit should be put upon the Government's evacuation scheme. If there were a disastrous air raid, special provision would have to be made, by Government evacuation to a prepared camp, which should be got ready in time.
  In the interest of the rural dwellers, who have done their very best to help and are continuing to do so, there should be some time limit to the scheme of evacuation. Another wave of school children can easily be assimilated, but for the mothers with children it is essential there should be some fixed point after which the Government can say: "If you do not take advantage of this scheme you cannot expect to be evacuated at the public expense unless there is a disastrous raid which will make it necessary to evacuate you." Questions have been raised as to the number of people who have returned. I can give the figures only for the small town near which I live. Sixty-seven mothers and children had come into that town, and 27 of them had returned. I think that is very bad. It has had a bad effect in-the town, and upon those who stayed behind.
  Dr. Guest: What county is that?
  Sir A. Southby: Oxfordshire. I have tried, as far as I can, to go about among the evacuees and have done what I could to help them, and I have found that the mothers and children who have remained deprecated the action of those who have gone back, and expressed the view that, after the welcome which had been given-them, it showed a certain ingratitude. I

  871
  regret that this Debate has had to be carried on to such a late hour, but I think it has served a very useful purpose. The Minister and the Under-Secretary can congratulate themselves on having heard helpful suggestions from Members, who are not indulging in carping criticism but trying to make the difficult task of the Minister more easy of accomplishment.
  9.52 p.m.
  Mr. McGovern: I agree that this evening has been well spent in the airing of grievances connected with the evacuation scheme. I do not attempt to condemn either those who have been evacuated or those who have received them, because I look upon the whole matter as a great social problem. There are people who are verminous. No one will attempt to deny that. There are properties which they come from that are verminous, and it may be that in addition to carrying their own burdens they have also carried the property owners' burdens from the bug-infested tenements of Glasgow. During 28 years' experience of the building trade, during which I have been going in and out of houses, I have always preferred working even in filthy drains rather than in filthy houses. I believe that cleanliness is one of the great things in life, and, whether one lives in the depths of poverty or on a lavish scale, personal cleanliness is something to which everybody should aspire.
  I realise that in this evacuation scheme, the magnitude of which would have appalled us if it had been suggested a few years ago, there are bound to be many defects. I am not so convinced as some Members are that an air raid would at once cause a clamour on the part of those who have returned to get back into the country. I have had experience of air raids in Madrid. One of the great problems experienced there was that they could not get the people to go out of the most dangerous parts of the city during air raids. Even though the dead were counted by hundreds in the streets, the people persisted in sticking to their own homes. I have had personal experience in my own area. I suggested to my wife, who is of rather a nervous disposition, that she should go away with our young boy of 11, and her reply was, "If I am to be killed I will be killed in my own home." That is the attitude of many people in this country. I have
  872
  sympathy not only with the evacuees, but with the people who have to take them in. Another thing that I value greatly is the sanctity of one's own home. I would rather live, even as some people are doing to-day, in a condemned single-apartment house and have the sanctity of my own home preserved than live among a crowd of people with whom I might have nothing in common and in uncomfortable circumstances, with no privacy of any kind.
  This Debate to-night, at a very early stage, showed, in the interchanges across the Floor of the House, that we were just as human as the evacuees and those receiving them in the reception areas. It may seem wrong to talk about it now, but in my opinion the authorities did not sufficiently tackle the question of underground shelters in the areas where the people lived. It is a different thing for people to leave their homes and go into an underground shelter or tunnel for a temporary period from leaving their homes for three or five years as the case may be. It is not a pleasant thought for a man and woman and their family to separate for that period, which may probably be during the most impressionable years in the life of the children, when the father and mother who are attached to them want to retain their association and be able to love and to teach them in the ordinary ways of life. To the people who have to face the problem of taking in these evacuees for three or five years, it is a horrible thought. These people in many cases occupy small houses and they have had a number of people placed with them. Some of these people recognise the difficulties and do not want evacuees. They want to retain the sanctity of their homes, and I have great sympathy with them in that desire. Try and place yourself in the position where someone says that you have to take four or five children into your home. You may have one kitchenette and one bathroom, and you have all these people, all perhaps with different ideas, clamouring to use the same facilities. I am not surprised at this trouble.
  Something has been said about the evacuation of Glasgow children. Many of them, we have been told, were verminous. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) remarked to me at the time that he had taught in the Glasgow schools for 12 years and that if any verminous child

  873
  was discovered in a class a quiet word passed to the mother had the complete effect of bringing about a change in the child's personal appearance in a very short time. If these children were sent into an area in a verminous condition it may be that the mother would be blamed for lack of attention, but certainly the local authority have a greater responsibility. When this evacuation scheme was conceived proper arrangements were not made to deal with this matter, and people with responsibility and knowledge were not selected to deal with such cases. If I were asked in Glasgow, "What would you do?" I would have gone first and foremost and consulted a man like Mr. Ramsay, the head of the public assistance committee, who has 2,000 children boarded out and has knowledge, extending over many years, of the treatment of these children. When they take three or four children from a drunken father and mother or drunken mother they take them because they are in a verminous condition and they have been ill-nourished. They do not send them right away into reception areas without putting them through a certain process, even if it is of a speedy character. The children are taken and immediately cleaned. They are medically examined and given complete equipment and are sent into selected homes. The homes have been selected by examination by inspectors and a large number of children are trained in these homes.
  If there had been a man of that kind at the head of the evacuation scheme in Scotland, even as a supervisor, he could have immediately put his finger on the weaknesses. We are dealing with a problem on a vast scale. I have been round as a parish councillor visiting homes where there have been boarded-out children, and we have had to take the children away on the spur of the moment, because the people were not attending to them in the proper way. Old couples and old maids of 50 or 60 years of age, who have sent their children upstairs when the inspectors came, have tiraded against them. One claimed that a boy had stolen sixpence and had gone to the pictures. We discovered that the child had no criminal desires, but had never been able to get to the pictures, in fact, had never got out of the house. We saw the house was not suitable and the child was taken away to another home.
  874
  All these problems are bound to arise under an evacuation scheme. I could quote cases that have come to my attention; at my home during the week-end I have had scores of people telling me about the difficulties of evacuation. I told them I was not dealing with personal cases, but that I was prepared to raise the issue and suggest better supervision. Here is one case which shows lack of consideration. A poor, decent and hardworking woman undertook to have 12 children. She went away to the North of Scotland and the children were put in. an old house. That woman had to feed the children and up till last Saturday she had not a single penny to feed them. A boy's father complained to me last Saturday about the children being taken away. He is the head of the house-lighting department of the Glasgow Corporation and was capable of sending his child money, but he knew nothing at all about the whereabouts of the child. This woman was dependent on a local farmer to give the children she had in her care, milk, eggs, butter and potatoes and other food of that description. I say it is a shocking thing that a decent woman should be brought to that stage, and that 12 children should be brought home by parents because they have been half-starved during that period. I am not exaggerating. I can give facts. They are responsible people. They are not the type who can be described as verminous or anything else.
  My complaint is that there should be greater supervision in these areas to see-that children do not suffer. It is said that it is only when the mothers are there that trouble arises. You do not expect children to cause trouble if they are not being properly attended to. I have a boy of II, and if he is given a piece of bread and jam he is satisfied. Very often the greatest difficulty is to get him to sit down and take a meal. Children do not complain, and they may suffer as a consequence. Supervision is absolutely essential. Here is a case from my own division which I saw in the "Daily Record" to-day. The statement is that two little Glasgow children who were evacuated a fortnight ago were drowned yesterday by the incoming Sol way tide. A girl of 11 years of age, the playmate of the children, made an heroic but unsuccessful effort to save her friends. The victims were Betty Brennan, nine years

  875
  of age, and Eric Brennan, seven years of age. Fancy that type of news coming to the father of children who have been evacuated. It is bound to arouse in the minds of every mother in Glasgow the thought that her child might be in danger, and it will have the effect that many children will be brought back from these evacuation areas into Glasgow.
  Last week there were motors of all kinds being employed in bringing back children on the ground that some of them were sleeping in outhouses, on concrete floors, and in rooms without beds. These personal stories came to me. I did not take the complete details because I am pleading that in every case supervision should take place. Any person can picture what a home must be on hearing a tragedy of that description. Were the children drowned because there was a lack of supervision? You cannot throw children into an area and not have proper supervision. Boys and girls are bound to get into danger and trouble, and there should be complete supervision in these evacuation areas. All the problems about which we have been speaking to-night are the product of your war and your social system, and it is no wonder that people like myself say that nothing on earth justifies this war, nothing on earth justifies the loss of 20,000,000 lives, the wrecking of homes and the breaking of hearts in every part of the country. I believe that nothing justifies this war and the consequences of it are going to be tremendous. Here we are discussing the problem of the breakup of family life. We used to be told that Socialism would break up family life. Capitalism is successfully breaking up family life, breaking hearts and destroying the homes and the happiness in every part of the world. I have mentioned two evacuated children from my area who were drowned. I have said that the supervision over these children should have been more complete. I blame the local authority for lack of attention, lack of consideration and lack of business ability.
  The Government have done many wrong things. Sometimes they have appointed the wrong people, busy people and tired people. I see people such as the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) being appointed to a responsible position. To begin with, I do
  876
  not know how that squares with the fact that nobody is to get a paid job in this country if he is a Member of Parliament. I hear that the right hon. Member for West Stirling has been appointed. He is the manager of a large insurance company in Glasgow, drawing —1,500 a year, I am told. He has his Parliamentary salary, he writes articles for the papers, he has his own home life to develop, and on top of that he is appointed to a job of this description. He simply cannot do it. I assume he is not a man who is prepared to take a salary of that description without doing something in return for the salary he is drawing, because his whole life has been spent, as editor of "Forward," in hammering everybody in the Labour movement, with the call of "One man, one job." He wanted even Cabinet Ministers to have £8 a week. The Government appoint this man to a job of this description when evidently he has not the time to devote to the job.
  If the Government are going to appoint people to look after the interests of these evacuated people, let them appoint people who have the time, who are not tied up in a hundred different ways, and who can devote their attention to the job. If the Government want this evacuation scheme to be successful—and I would address this remark to the Secretary of State for Scotland—let them go to a man such as Mr. Ramsay, of the Public Assistance Department in Glasgow, who has supervision over and knowledge of 2,000 children who are boarded out. Such men will show the Government the basis of operation of a scheme which at least will send children out of Glasgow equipped, clean and decent, and give the scheme a proper chance of operating in a decent way. I do not expect the scheme to work properly. I think that tearing people from their ordinary routine and life and dumping them into another area, town-bred children with country children, can never be successful, quite apart from the question of the breaking up of family life.
  I spent two years in Australia. There all the farming schemes went wrong because you took town-bred people and put them on the land, and all of them gravitated towards the cities. These people will come back as quickly as they can. The scheme will break down. I think the most sensible thing that has been said to-night is the suggestion made by one or

  877
  two hon. Members that only camps or hostels or houses of some kind, where people are allowed to develop their own life, will have any chance of success. The attempt to billet people in strange houses, where quarrels are bound to ensue, will lead to the people coming back to the cities. I plead with the Ministers responsible that, if the schemes are to operate properly, at least they should see that the children are examined in the proper way, that they are fitted out for the journey and for the life into which they are going, and that some form of development should take place even at this late period in the matter of camps or huts of some kind, for they would be preferable to the life that these people are having now. I have in my pocket a postcard which one woman sent to her husband in which she said that she was satisfied because she had got into a condemned house. Things have come to the state in which a woman evacuated from her own home is satisfied only when she can be accommodated in a condemned house. This proves that the question of their having their own home is the thing that is causing the greatest amount of trouble and will continue to do so to an increasing extent. I venture to say that before one month has passed most of the evacuees will be back in their homes in various parts of the country and all the Government's efforts have been in vain, whereas with a proper and reasoned scheme, having at the head of it men with some knowledge, instead of busybodies who have no knowledge, would have had some chance of being a success. I am sure that hon. Members, no matter in what corner they sit, have the greatest sympathy with the Ministers, with those who are taking the evacuees, and with the evacuees themselves, because they are all given an impossible task. The whole thing is wrong and unnatural and I cannot see it working out successfully in any shape or form.
  10.16 p.m.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): We have had a long Debate and, I think for the first time since the outbreak of war, the House finds itself sitting at what a short time ago were its accustomed hours. Undoubtedly, as was said by the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen), it has been to-day a very
  878
  human house, human in its passionate interest in the problem which is set before us, human in the waves of emotion which have swept it from time to time and led us occasionally to fear that the Debate was going to break down into unconstructive argument instead of the constructive suggestions to which fortunately it has generally rallied. It shows us the House of Commons at work ventilating grievances and bringing to the observation of those who, like my right hon. Friend and myself, have heavy responsibilities to shoulder, its devotion, its criticism and, I say with gratitude, its sympathy, because the task which we had to shoulder at short notice is one which undoubtedly would a few years or even a few weeks ago have caused a very great sense of impossibility to come over all our minds.
  I do not share the pessimistic views of the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern). I think the descriptions that have been brought forward have shown that, in so far as the schoolchildren are concerned, the scheme on the whole has been not merely a success but a very considerable success. It is true that he brings forward the case of two children who by a regrettable accident have lost their lives on Sol way shore, but have no children ever lost their lives in street accidents in Glasgow? Have none lost their lives in accidents away from home before? Accidents happen. What we are trying to avoid is that the greatest of all accidents should not happen to the children and that the devastation which he himself has seen in Spain and elsewhere should not fall with its greatest effect on the child life of our own country.
  I think it is true to say that the many criticisms which have been advanced have mostly concerned the problem of the adults—the problem of the mothers with children. The hon. Member for Shettleston suggested that all might have been avoided if we had worked on the lines of Mr. Ramsay of the public assistance authority in Glasgow, who had gone so far as to board out 3,000 children. We are boarding out hundreds of thousands of children, not over a period of one to three, four or ten years, but over a period of four days, and in those circumstances I do not think that the analogy of the patient, slow, methodical investigations which are possible in peace-time can

  879
  possibly be adduced in the crisis and emergency under which the country is labouring.
  Mr. McGovern: I only suggested that verminous children, and that sort of thing, would have been avoided if proper preparation had been made.
  Mr. Elliot: I do not agree with the hon. Member. Proper preparation involves many weeks of previous treatment and investigation. The circumstances in which we were working were not circumstances in which many weeks of preparation were available and it was impossible for the same process to be gone through in the case of this sudden movement as in the case of the slower movement to which the hon. Member refers. We had to deal with the problem of evacuation under conditions which were completely novel. Although we had some experience of the boarding-out of school children, it was on a small scale and we had no experience of trying to deal with the problem of the evacuation of adults, certainly not on the colossal scale which this country undertook at such short notice.
  I frankly admit that we have had experiences from which we ought to learn and from which I hope we have learned. Many of the criticisms advanced during this Debate have been dealt with in the circular No. 1871 to which a good many references—on the whole friendly— have been made by hon. Members. For instance, there is the point about the careful inspection of the children which has been mentioned by many speakers tonight. In the circular the attention of the local authorities is drawn to that matter. I would repeat the declaration which was made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland on behalf of the Government that, unless under rush conditions when no such inspection is possible, no child should be sent to a billet unless it has been inspected and found to be, so to speak, in a billet able condition. I repeat that declaration, on behalf not only of England and Wales but on behalf of the Government as a whole. Mention has also been made of the use of empty houses. In paragraphs 28 and 29 of the circular we have gone into that question at some length and made it clear that local authorities have the power, not necessarily to buy but to requisition.
  Mr. McGovern: What circular is that?
  Mr. Elliot:That circular refers to conditions in England and Wales but a similar circular is going out as regards Scotland. I did my best to send it, with a personal covering note, to each Member of Parliament, but perhaps it was not addressed to the hon. Member. It may be that it would be wrong of me, as an English Minister, to address a circular to a Scottish Member. But it is a circular which deals with many of the points raised in this Debate. As I say, it points out that local authorities have the power to requisition houses and deals with the question of the expense of requisitioning these houses and fitting them up with the equipment necessary for the daily life of the home. The point about finance is met by the statement that such expenses will be a proper charge against the evacuation scheme. We have also drawn attention to the point which has been raised in the course of the Debate in reference to the distressing circumstances in which bedding and household equipment have had to be destroyed. There is a definite paragraph on that which draws attention to the fact that claims by householders may be made in respect of damage and that careful note of any damage of that kind should be kept, and we shall do our best to see that claims of that kind are properly considered. That certainly also would apply to damage caused by infestation of bedding or household equipment as well as to actual damage caused, as is caused in some cases, by the destruction of property, either maliciously or accidentally. It would be wrong for me at this late hour to go in detail into the circular, but I would commend it to hon. Members as an attempt which we have made already to meet some of the points that have been brought up in this Debate.
  It is true also to say that we shall do our best to deal with other difficulties which have been brought out by hon. Members—for instance, the public health aspects of the case and the necessity for giving guidance to the local authorities as to dealing with infectious disease and with early hospitalisation of the cases of sickness which might cause epidemics to begin. We shall be sending out a further circular on the lines of Circular 1871 fairly soon, because it is desirable to give guidance to the local authorities and others on

  881
  such subjects. In all this we have to do our best to steer a middle course between snowing the local authorities under a snowstorm of circulars and papers which will give them no time to consider any of them, and standing back and leaving everything to their unguided initiative. On the whole, the reception authorities have dealt magnificently, by the use of initiative, with every aspect of the problems which have been hurled at their heads.
  The hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) spoke with a little acerbity about a policeman who had taken orders from a vicar. It is true that orders may have been given by the vicar, by the policeman, by the social helper, by the worker who has gone out from London, by the swarm of individuals who have fastened on the problem and brought it into an orderly shape out of the great difficulties with which they were faced. These people have merited well of this country, and particularly of this House, because we put forward these schemes to the House, and the House passes them, but it is for the individuals to translate them into action, and, taking it by and large, the individuals have magnificently done so. Take one single fact. We have been speaking for hours on this great problem, the movement of 1,400,000 individuals, young children, mothers, expectant mothers, women in an advanced stage of pregnancy, and nobody from start to finish of the Debate has ever suggested that one of these people went hungry for a day. There are many people up and down the world to-day who would give much to be able to say that that was the the case with the refugees under their charge.
  Mr. McGovern: That is wrong. I put a case where 12 children went hungry for a week.
  Mr. Elliot: I am coming to that. The hon. Member did say in one case that there had been a hitch in obtaining the money. I made inquiries as to whether one word of complaint about that case had been received by us in Scotland. There has not been a word. Such cases may arise, but in general the cases have not been very acute or we should have heard about them in the administration. Unless they are brought to the notice of the administration it is impossible to remedy them.
  Mr. McGovern: I pointed out that the 12 children were brought home by their parents because of the treatment they received.
  Mr. Elliot: The hon. Member pointed that out here, after the children had been brought home, without giving adequate notice to the Secretary of State for Scotland or bringing it to my notice.
  Mr. McGovern: The right hon. Gentleman is not entitled to say that. I did not know about the case until I saw some of the parents on a bus last Saturday bringing the children home. I am only pointing out that there was a lack of administration. Surely I am entitled to do that when a woman looking after 12 children has no money with which to feed them. The right hon. Gentleman is too inclined to rebut things instead of dealing with them sympathetically.
  Mr. Elliot: If the hon. Member would extend to others the courtesy which he rightly demands for himself he would listen to what I was about to say. I said that this case had not been brought to the notice of the administration. He himself admits that he has not mentioned it to anybody from Saturday night until Thursday evening.
  Mr. McGovern: I told the Secretary of State yesterday, which was the first day Parliament met. That was the first occasion I could do so. The right hon. Gentleman must not be unfair.
  Mr. Elliot: I do not wish to be unfair, but the hon. Member criticises very severely the conduct of those with whom he finds himself at variance. He has criticised the conduct of the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. T. Johnston), and I do not think he should be so thin-skinned. I will, if the hon. Member likes, make an exception of his case, and say that except for that case which he heard about on Saturday and brought to the attention of the Secretary of State on Wednesday, no other case has been brought up on the Floor of the House of any evacuee who went hungry. The House is entitled to thank those responsible for the care which they exercised in making sure that such a statement could be made. I was asked by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) whether I could make a statement about the financial position of the individuals

  883
  whose children have been evacuated and what the position was of those who ought to make some contribution towards the cost of billeting their children. It has been contemplated from the outset that parents of children who are evacuated in school units under the Government plan, and for whose board and lodging and general welfare the householder is made responsible, should be asked, where the family circumstances justify, to make a contribution towards the cost. That was made plain in a circular issued in May last, and has been on other occasions.
  The Defence Regulations are so framed as to enable the Minister to recover the whole or any part of the cost, together with the cost of arrangements made for providing children with the necessary medical attendance, and these arrangements have been made with the most cordial co-operation of the British Medical Association. Any householder with whom an unaccompanied child is billeted may, without expense to himself, call in a doctor if he thinks it necessary. We in the Government feel that the general principle of asking parents to make a reasonable contribution, according to their means, towards these expenses is sound. I think it will be agreed in all quarters of the House that in war as in peace parents should accept the primary responsibility of maintaining their children. I cannot at the moment say more than that. The detailed arrangements are being worked out and the Government will keep in close touch with the representative associations of the local authorities, whose advice and assistance will be welcome and will, I am sure, be forthcoming.
  I do not think it would be desirable or advisable for me, at this stage, to go through the numerous and most valuable constructive suggestions which have been made. The Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor) and others dealt with the position of the children under five. The suggestion that they should as far as possible be treated on the crêche system, large or small, which is one which we welcome, and to which we called attention in paragraph 35 of the Circular I have mentioned. It would be difficult, also, for me to go into some of the criticisms of the billeting allowances,
  884
  but we have not neglected them. Sometimes I think hon. Members do not quite allow for the fact that certain billeting allowances make provision for food as well as for lodging, and some only make provision for food. It was suggested by, I think, the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Tomlinson) that there was no justification for a billeting allowance of 21s. for a civil servant and 5s. for a teacher, but the 5s. for the teacher is a room allowance only and the 21s. is for room allowance and food as well.
  Were these ordinary times I could go at great length into the criticisms; but they are not ordinary times, and I beg hon. Members to accept my assurance that the Government will take into consideration all the suggestions that have been made, and I hope that our previous actions and the instructions we have sent out to local authorities will be accepted as an earnest of the fact that this is not merely an empty phrase. We are very strongly aware of the size of the problem we are facing, and of the necessity under which we shall be to rest ourselves closely upon the advice and the support of the House in dealing with it. As has been said, we are dealing not with mere statistics, but with individuals. It is not enough to say that we have in England moved 673,000 unaccompanied school children and 406,000 mothers and young children. Each of them is an individual problem. The 3,000 expectant mothers whom we moved from London are not a mass of 3,000 people, but 3,000 cases, every one of which represents a human problem to all friends and relations. We shall do our utmost to allow for that in our future dealings with this question. This is the first of many Debates that we shall have on this subject, I have no doubt. We have had great support from the House in our first encounter with this matter and I hope that the Minister will continue throughout the future weeks, or months, or, it may be longer period for which we have to deal with this problem, to deserve the support and sympathy which the House has extended this evening, on again coming before the House.
  10.41 p.m.
  Sir Henry Fildes: I have waited some time to have an opportunity to express the grievances of my constituency of Dumfriesshire, and I have been amazed at the complacency with which the Minister

  885
  has contemplated this action of his Department, by a system of fines and penalties, to force into the homes of Britain persons suffering from venereal disease, diphtheria, scabies and all sorts of infectious complaints. An instance was quoted here of a women, who refused to receive a child in a dirty condition, being fined £25. I tell the Minister that his Department will not be forgiven for the audacity of obtaining powers in this House to force unhealthy and diseased people into the homes of other people and for offering no explanation from that Box. I remember, as we all do, a day when, if there had been an indictment placed upon any Ministry like that which has been placed upon the Ministry of Health it would have been followed by the resignation of the Minister, but here we have the Minister getting up and without a word of apology to the community for the dreadful scourge that he has placed upon the homes of Britain.
  I have made my protest. I have letters from responsible people in Dumfrieshire where alone over 27,000 people have been forced from the districts of Glasgow under the threat that if the people did not take them in the penalty was a fine of —25 and three months' imprisonment. What provision did the Ministry of Health make
  886
  to see that those people were in a healthy and safe condition to be placed in those homes? We have had no reply to that question, but we have had a measure of complacency which is an outrage. I do not think that the Minister appreciates at this moment the intensely bitter feeling that there is against his Department on this matter. I grant you that it is not the fault of the children, but what are you to say of a Department of Health which, having had months to get on with this job, has not made inquiry to see that the people whom they were forcing upon other districts were in a healthy condition and were not imposing a risk of plague on the countryside? I am disappointed more than I can tell at the speech to which we have listened. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that because somebody else, the people in the country, did the job, his Department are not responsible, but that Department cannot take credit for what has happened, and it has not had the decency to see that the evacuees were in a reasonable state of health.
  Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter before Eleven o'Clock

  CZECHO-SLOVAKIA (ASSETS).
  CZECHO-SLOVAKIA (ASSETS).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

WAR AND CIVILIANS: GERMAN DECLARATIONS.
3.5 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I understand that it would be for the convenience of the Foreign Secretary if I were to put now a question of which notice was given in the course of the discussion yesterday, and my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition has been good enough to agree to that being done. I desire to ask the Foreign Secretary if he can state what answer was given by the German Government to President Roosevelt's appeal on the subject of the bombing of civilian populations and the use of gas and bacteriological methods of warfare.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Viscount opposite and to the noble Lord who leads the Opposition for giving me this opportunity to supplement what I was able to say yesterday. On the question of gas, if I may deal with that first, the position is that our Ambassador in Berlin, when asking for his passports from the German Government, presented a Note inquiring whether Germany would observe the terms of the Geneva Gas Protocol of 1925, which prohibits the use of poisonous and asphyxiating gases and bacteriological methods of warfare. The German Government have now replied in the affirmative to this inquiry, through the Swiss Minister in London who is in charge of their interests. With your Lordships' permission I will read a translation of this answer, which is quite short:
"The German Government will observe for the duration of the war the prohibitions which form the subject of the Geneva Protocol of June 17, 1925, and are mentioned in Lord Halifax's Note of September 3, 1939. It reserves full liberty of action in the event of the provisions of the Protocol being infringed by the enemy."
On the other question of President Roosevelt's appeal, I find that in addition

1059
to his words in the Reichstag on September 1, which I quoted yesterday, Herr Hitler did in fact send a reply to the President through the United States Chargé d'Affaires in Berlin. Your Lordships will no doubt be glad to hear its terms, although I understand it has already been published. These are the words:
"The view, expressed in the message of President Roosevelt, that it is a humanitarian principle to refrain from the bombing of nonmilitary objectives under all circumstances in connection with military operations corresponds completely with my own point of view and has been assumed by me before. I therefore unconditionally endorse the request that the Governments taking part in the hostilities now in progress may publicly make a declaration in this sense. For my own part I assume that you have noticed in my Reichstag speech of to-day that the German Air Force has received the order to restrict its operations to military objectives. It is a self-evident prerequisite for the maintenance of this order that opposing Air Forces adhere to the same rule."
3.9 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, before we leave this question I would like to ask the Foreign Secretary a question, but as I have not given him notice if he does not wish to answer it I will immediately accept what he says, but I think he will be able to reply and it is not a question which should embarrass him in any way. Does he understand from the German Declarations which he has read to your Lordships that this applies to all fronts or only to a war which might, at the moment those declarations were made, be expected between the German Government and ourselves? I ask that because I understand that not even now has there been a formal declaration of war by the German Government on Poland. I think it might be useful if the noble Viscount could inform your Lordships whether he reads into those declarations that the war, so to speak, is indivisible, and that the same rule should apply to all fronts, even if there has been no formal declaration of war, as in the case of Poland. I apologise for putting this question at short notice, but I also spoke at short notice and briefly yesterday, and some of my noble friends and some supporters of the noble Viscount pointed out to me that I had appeared to suggest that we should not engage in reprisals unless we were attacked, and that this might be misinterpreted abroad among our Allies as seeking to humanise
1060
the war on our own front, and being indifferent to what was happening on their fronts; whereas I need hardly tell your Lordships that, like every one of your Lordships, I regard an attack on any of our Allies by illegal methods as an attack upon ourselves.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, I cannot, I am afraid, claim to have any more information or knowledge as to the precise meaning of this Note than is available to any one of your Lordships as appearing on the surface of the terms of the Note. But, so far as I can form a judgment, in reply to the noble Lord, there is certainly no limitation expressed or, I would have thought, implied in the terms of the Note; and indeed the wording makes reference to "the Governments taking part in the hostilities now in progress." I would have thought, reading the Note as a layman, if any restriction of area had been in the mind of the speaker, it would almost certainly have been expressed.

MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (TRANSFER OF POWERS) (No. 2) ORDER, 1939.
3.13 p.m.
THE MINISTER FOR THE CO-ORDINATION OF DEFENCE (LORD CHATFIELD): My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved. I do not think it is necessary for me to say more than that this Order transfers legal and Ministerial responsibility for the Government reserve of petroleum for civil purposes from the Board of Trade to the Ministry of Supply under the Ministry of Supply Act. It is the last of the commodities dealt with under the special machinery of the Essential Commodities Reserves Act left to be transferred. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Chatfield.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HAMILTON BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

THE WAR SITUATION.
3.14 p.m.
LORD SNELL LORD SNELL rose to call attention to the statement on the situation made yesterday by the Leader of the House; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House yesterday generally welcomed the statement that was made to it by the Leader of the House on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and that statement seemed to me to be far too important either to be ignored or discussed without some little opportunity for reflecting upon what it contained. I therefore placed upon the Order Paper the Motion that stands in my name in order to enable those of your Lordships who may wish to do so to make any comment upon the statement. It was in my mind also to ensure that the ordinary machinery of Parliament should be kept in working order, and to provide an occasion for the Minister of Information, if he should wish to do so, to make any statement about his own Department. I would like at this stage to say that my regard for the noble Lord, Lord Macmillan, is too great to permit me to congratulate him upon the office that he has assumed—a most harassing responsibility. Therefore I merely assure him that he has the good will of all of us and, as far as our opportunities allow, we shall be glad to give him general support.
The statement made to your Lordships' House yesterday was, as I have said, important. I desire to speak about only one or two things that it contained. It was, first of all, good to know that the Supreme War Council had been established at this early period of hostilities, and one may be permitted to hope that many mistakes and misunderstandings such as occurred in the last war will in consequence be avoided. We welcome the fact that from the very beginning it will function, as we hope, happily, and will, as the result of its labours, secure a shorter period of hostilities. I would like to say, secondly, that the news from the Commonwealth was as good as it could possibly be. If the aggressor based his actions upon the expectation of disunion in the British Empire, he has already suffered a great disillusionment. The British family on this occasion, as always, stands together, wishing ill to no man, but resolved to defend those values
1062
which are the very breath of its common life. The losses at sea which were mentioned were such as might have been expected to happen. The fact that they did happen is proof, as I see it, that Germany knew the precise hour, so to speak, at which hostilities would break out: that she had prepared to strike at a particular time. We may hope that that initial advantage, so secured, will quickly pass away.
It is also good to know that the "confetti warfare," as it has been called, of dropping information instead of bombs upon the German people has been a great success—so successful apparently that the German Government, so afraid of truth, threaten with death anyone seen to pick one leaflet up and to read it. I have not seen one of these leaflets in the original. There seems some strange hesitation in letting us know precisely what did happen, but, so far as I am entitled to judge the English translation, it seemed to me first of all to be too long, too donnish and stiff, and without punch. It seemed to require the hand of a practised journalist or seasoned propagandist to say the neat thing in the fewest possible words.
The only other matter I desire to touch upon is the Ministry of Information itself, and I say these words less as a criticism than as an encouragement to the Department to grow up as quickly as possible. At present it would appear to be like a child afflicted with rickets, not precisely knowing how to walk about the earth. If I might venture in the presence of the noble Lord to offer advice, it would be that the principle of the Department should be that all news that it is safe to give should be provided for the people in the quickest possible time. The morale of the nation is a very important factor in warfare, and if that morale were allowed to droop the consequences might indeed be serious. We have been told that soldiers fight upon their stomachs. It is equally true to say that nations fight upon their spirit, and that spirit has to be maintained.
My own observations permit me to remark on this occasion that the spirit of the English people during the past weeks has been a wonderful thing to behold. There has been no panic, no sense of illusion, but a deep realisation that this grim thing has to be seen through, and that all trials necessary must be borne

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cheerfully and bravely. The most precious quality, as I see it, has been a power to separate the truth and the half-truth from the wholly or the partly false, and to grip the central fact and to hold fast to it. Now these qualities residing in our people justify the Ministry of Information in giving to them whatever information can safely be given. I have not heard uttered one word of hatred towards the German people or any expressed desire on our part to deny to their country a proper place in the world. With quite clear vision our people seem to be able to put the responsibility precisely where it lies, upon that group of adventurers who have attained rule and power in Germany itself.
It would be a very generous act to refrain from any criticism of the Ministry of Information this afternoon, and if I were a perfect person I should rise to that occasion; but I feel that it is necessary to say that the early activities of this important Department of our national defence are not entirely satisfactory. If the story of the last few days occurred as an incident in a stage burlesque it would, I think, make a very funny entertainment. Advice is given by the Ministry of Information to the Press to do this and that. The Press, as you know, humble and obedient, always gets on with its work; then the order is suddenly countermanded, and the persons with papers have them seized, and then, amid all the wreckage, there comes a sound of "Ali Clear" and the thing goes on as though it had never been. This is no criticism of the Minister of Information. I would like to say that in my judgment it will require all his powers to discipline the at present unorganised and perhaps wilful people with whom he has to live and work. I know that the Ministry of Information must be dependent on the good will and the co-operation of all the other departments, but my judgment is that there must be unity of command, that the Ministry of Information is in existence to give the information, and it cannot be side-tracked by departmental zeal. I venture to hope that the noble Lord, with the shrewdness that we all know resides in him, has made it clear that he intends to be master in his own house. If he is not, then I hope he will leave it as soon as possible.
In saying this, I am not primarily concerned with the convenience of the Press. Those gentlemen can look after themselves, and they usually have the last word. I think that they never feel a grievance so keenly as when it falls upon themselves. But nevertheless they exist to perform a great and important service, and their functions, so long as they are properly performed, should be respected. I should like to ask the Minister of Information whether it would be within his power, if he thought it advisable, to provide the House with a few practical facts about his Department, perhaps one or two illustrations of how its work runs, and what we may expect from it. Finally, I would like to say a word about the future. If we are to have weekly statements of progress such as we had yesterday it may not, in my judgment, be always necessary to have a debate following them, but at the present time the supply of news has scarcely begun to trickle through the provided channels, and the knowledge that Parliament is performing its proper function in the community may give to the public both comfort and assurance. It is for that reason that I placed the Motion on the Paper that I now beg to move.
3.29 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I merely desire to touch on one or two points arising out of the statement made by the noble Earl yesterday, a few of which have already been dealt with by the noble Lord who has just spoken. In the first place, I wish to express my satisfaction with the fact that the Supreme Council has held its first meeting. I can do so perhaps with deeper feeling than most people because I well recall the similar meetings which were held in the early years of the war in 1914 and 1915. Those meetings were thoroughly cordial but not intimate even on the military side. Although we know military conversations had passed, there was not that degree of intimacy between the two armies which exists at present. I am happy to think that now from the very first the closest relations both on the political side and the military side will exist between those who take part in those conversations, which I trust will occur fairly frequently. Then the noble Lord, Lord Snell, spoke of the prompt response which we have all observed by

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the Dominions and Commonwealths to the call which has been made. That was only to be expected, but I think that the result has even surpassed our expectations. It is also well to call attention to the free response made by the Colonies and not least—I might almost say more than any—by India.
One other point on which I would say a word is one to which the noble Lord, Lord Snell, devoted some part of his speech—that of the quota of information. My noble and learned friend Lord Macmillan is in the rather dangerous position that all men speak well of him. He has been welcomed from every quarter in taking up his most important office. It is surely difficult to overrate the difficulty of the task which he has undertaken. The public demand for news has been for many years past stimulated—and a severe critic might say vitiated—by the output of exciting and amusing news which the popular Press has distributed not only to this country but to the whole world. It has come to be the case with many that nothing can be really regarded as news which is not either exciting or amusing, and it is evident that in making communication of affairs concerned with the war the Ministry of Information has in the first place before everything to think whether any risk attaches to the publication of such news. It is surely better that readers should feel that they are dissatisfied or even bored by the information which they receive on a particular day than that anything should be allowed to pass out which might be even of the slightest danger to those engaged in the war. Subject to that, I am sure we should all agree with what fell from the noble Lord, Lord Snell, that so far as possible everything which can be published ought to be published and, published as soon as possible. I think a great many of the complaints which at different times have occurred have arisen from the delay in giving information rather than from the character of the information itself.
That is all I have to say on that particular topic, but I should like to touch for a moment, if I may, on the question raised by my noble friend beside me. The noble Viscount the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was obliged to leave the House and therefore I do not expect that any speaker on behalf of His Majesty's
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Government will desire to pursue this particular subject of the bombardment or punishment of civilians by armed forces. We all know that only those who are commissioned or enlisted in the armed forces of a country are entitled to bear arms and to take part in a war. Those civilians who are not so attached do so at the risk of their lives and do not receive the immunities, such as they are, which the regular forces when taken prisoners can claim. But that is not an excuse or a reason for a general infliction of punishment, if that is the word, or reprisals upon an entire civilian population.
The question has assumed a different aspect since the invention of bombardment from the air, but it is not altogether a new question. In the Franco-Prussian war there were cases in which, as reprisals against franc-tireurs or sabotage of the invaders' resources, penalties were inflicted not merely on those who were immediately engaged, but in some cases on the whole population, or the greater part of it, of some particular village; but, of course, since the possibility of destruction from the air, the situation has very much altered. Now we have not been told—His Majesty's Government have not stated—that it is in fact the intention of the German Government in Poland to enter upon the indiscriminate destruction of civilians and their houses and their goods, and the noble Viscount stated in the most suitable terms that if any such policy were pursued His Majesty's Government, and no doubt the French Government, would be prepared to take the appropriate steps in reply.
No doubt distinction would be drawn against an isolated case of such unwarrantable action and the introduction of a systematic policy, carried out throughout the whole country. Therefore I think His Majesty's Government are absolutely right in not attempting to define, at present, the nature of the steps which might have to be taken, but I am sure it is a comfort to everybody to know that they are prepared to resist by all practical means—not, of course with any idea of entering into a competition of cruelty, because that would be altogether impossible from our point of view, but by exercising such severities as might have to be employed in resistance to such atrocious dealings on the part of the enemy.
3.42 p.m.
LORD CAMROSE: My Lords, the Ministry of Information is going to play such an important part in the long struggle which lies before us, and is of such intimate importance to the newspapers which I represent, that I claim the privilege of saying a few words this afternoon about this Ministry. In the first place, what has happened up to now has not given any great satisfaction to newspapers or news agencies. Before war broke out, there were innumerable conferences between the Home Office, which had the work of constructing this Ministry, and representatives of the newspapers and news agencies. At each of these conferences, serious objections were taken by these representatives to the methods which it was proposed should be adopted in forming the Ministry, and as to the personnel to be employed.
Nothing of any great satisfaction was received by the newspapers, and, to-day, what we have is a huge machine which has been fashioned and created on ordinary bureaucratic lines. It has been filled with civil servants of all kinds, acting in key positions. Not only is there the Minister, but there is a Director-General, a Deputy Director-General, Directors, and Deputy Directors, in all thirteen or fourteen, and we are wondering what all these people are going to do. There is an Advisory Council of twenty-two members, and that Council, I understand, has not yet met. The whole thing has been conceived on a scale which has amazed those whose everyday business it is to handle problems of the kind which are entrusted to the Ministry of Information.
On the other hand, the errors which have been made up to the present have not surprised Fleet Street at all. I do not propose to go into details of what happened in the newspaper offices on Monday night; but the House will be interested to know that the same news which caused this now celebrated blunder was first submitted to the Ministry on Friday of last week. It was then passed for publication, and appeared in the earlier editions of the newspapers. One hour later peremptory orders were given for its suppression, and the only difference from what happened on Monday night was that the police were not asked to go to the newspaper offices. The fact that there were British soldiers in France
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was known all over the world on Friday night. It must be admitted that every new Department is bound to make mistakes; but it is the likelihood of their recurrence which matters. That is the danger. My contention, and that of the newspaper Press as a whole, is that so long as the Ministry is staffed and controlled as it is now you will continue to have those errors of judgment and misunderstandings which have hampered not only our own newspapers but the representatives of papers in America and all important neutral countries.
Broadly speaking, the business and duties of the Ministry of Information constitute work which is being undertaken all the time in the newspaper offices of the country. When we get down to the practical character of that work, it resolves itself into the everyday problem of a responsible editor—what to print and what not to print, and to achieve decisions on these points without undue delay. Side by side is the task of issuing the news in a proper form, and of showing initiative and resourcefulness in the preparation of stories and statements which will attract and hold the public interest. What has been attempted up to now is to do all this with a large staff of people who have had no previous experience of any kind whatsoever. The results achieved are similar to those which you would expect if you tried to run a battleship with a regiment of soldiers. That is the reason for all these delays and censorship decisions which have caused universal trouble.
Actually, on this question of censorship, I very much doubt if, had there been no censorship in existence, except for purely military movements, there would have been any harm done. Meanwhile, censorship is still being conducted in such a way as to cause large and unnecessary costs to the international news agencies, thereby seriously injuring the proper flow of reliable news from this country, and opening the way to enemy propaganda, which is being pumped to every available source. Just before I came down here this morning, I received a letter from my correspondent in Copenhagen stating that the Danish Press is being swamped with German material and clamouring for something British. The quality of the British bulletins seems to leave much to be desired. Meanwhile

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the Germans give them colourful reports and photographs by the hundredweight. This is typical, I might say, of reports I have received from other neutral countries.
In another place yesterday the Lord Privy Seal said they were getting more journalists into the Ministry. I know myself of a number of hurried approaches which are now being made to subordinate members of newspaper staffs, my own among them. But it is not the slightest use getting these subordinates into the office unless the key positions, the actual control, is in the hands of experienced men who have occupied positions of similar responsibility before. It is these people who set the pace and control the machine, and until you place the actual work in the hands of men who know by practical experience how newspapers and the great news agencies work, you cannot expect to have a successful Ministry. Finally, I would say that I have the greatest possible admiration for the ability of the noble Lord, Lord Macmillan, who has undertaken this very onerous task, and I share with Lord Snell to the full the sympathy which he has extended to him. He has had a machine thrust upon him which is wrongly constituted and wrongly manned. In my opinion, based on a lifelong experience of newspaper work, he has got to make the most drastic changes in the constitution and personnel of his Ministry before he has any chance of achieving success.
3.52 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION (LORD MACMILLAN): My Lords, in rising thus early in my new capacity to address your Lordships, I should wish my first words to be words of appreciation of the kindly encouragement which has been extended to me by the noble Lords opposite and also by my noble friend Lord Camrose. I indeed require sympathy in the undertaking which has been confided to me, and I shall not be unmindful from time to time of the exhortations which I shall not fail to receive on all hands and of which I have already been the grateful recipient to an extent which your Lordships will understand. May I say at once that, as regards the general policy of the Ministry of Information, I am entirely in agreement with what has been said on all sides in this House and also in another place as to
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its true function. It is a Ministry of Expression, not a Ministry of Repression; least of all a Ministry of Depression. There is confided to it one of the most difficult, and perhaps I may say dangerous, tasks in wartime which any of us can discharge. Those who are entrusted with the active work of the war are engrossed in their responsible tasks. On the other hand, we who are civilians and are precluded from taking part in the actual operations of war are deeply concerned to know what is happening. It is our concern just as much as it is the concern of those who are fighting. It is a different matter for us. We enjoy greater safety and protection, but that leaves us more leisure to think and to brood upon what is happening; and nothing could be more dangerous than that we should be allowed to brood in ignorance and to be the victims of rumour and unofficial gossip.
Therefore, so far as in me lies, it will be my task to place before the people of this country and—in one sense an even more responsible task—before the people of other countries, the truth about what we are doing, what we are thinking and what we are hoping. But I have already realised the difficulty, first of all of obtaining the information and secondly of presenting it. One can understand that those who are engaged in the actual work of war are reluctant to talk about it or to waste their time, as they might say, in providing me with news about it; but I think in a democracy like ours, even the fighting Services will have to become publicity-minded, not in the sense of disclosing anything of military value, anything that would be of comfort to our enemies or which would detract from the success of our own operations on land, on the sea or in the air, but remembering that there is a home front as well as a front of war, and that the maintenance of the spirits and the morale of our people is of almost as much consequence in its contribution to victory as the morale of our fighting forces. Therefore they must not be reluctant to help me in my task of giving to the public as much information as can possibly be given consistently with the exigencies of military considerations.
I am happy to say that some of the first and happiest of the contacts I have been able to establish have been with the fighting Ministries, and they have assured

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me that they will help me so far as they possibly can in the provision of news. But, of course, your Lordships will realise that a Ministry of Information in this country labours under a great handicap compared with a Ministry of Information at Berlin. I have had on my table complaints from foreign countries—complaints such as have just been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Camrose—of the flood of material which is being provided for Continental papers, neutral papers, upon all sorts of subjects—propaganda literature of one kind or another—and the comparative paucity of material which has come from our country. The handicap to which I allude is this, that most of that propaganda and most of that information is lies. I should rather that we gave less information and true information than that we should issue to neutral countries and to foreign countries a vast mass of material that is unreliable and untrue. While the eagerness for news just now is being satisfied by those often mendacious reports and propaganda, in the long run I venture to think the foreign Press will appreciate the fact that what they receive from us is authentic news and authentic statements only.
There are, if I may say so, several features about this war from the publicity point of view which are unprecedented in military history. In the first place, there is war in the air on a scale which no doubt has never occurred before. There were great exploits in the air in the last war, but the developments which have taken place in that arm are going to have a vast effect upon warfare for the future; and they have this peculiar effect from the point of view of publicity, that whereas a naval engagement or a land engagement is more or less a localised thing, the facts of which can be ascertained with comparative rapidity and therefore made known with reasonable accuracy in a short time, when you are dealing on the other hand with an air raid or an air engagement, owing to the vast speed of the aeroplanes engaged you may have the dispersal of the operations over a very, very large area, so that to get an accurate and complete account of what has happened may involve collecting material from places hundreds of miles apart, which must make it exceedingly difficult for the Air Ministry to get at once a complete report of what has
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occurred. That may make it, therefore, much more difficult to supply early after occurrences of that sort the complete news which one would wish to give, because to give untrue or unverified news is much worse than giving no news.
But on the other hand I felt this—and it is well to be concrete and not abstract in one's observations. If you take the case of the alarm which we had the other morning, well, nothing official was announced with regard to that, if I remember rightly, until after two o'clock in the afternoon, and I learnt in the course of that morning that rumours of all sorts were abroad—that Margate was in flames, rumours that a great amount of damage had been done—and much anxiety and distress were occasioned. I made it my business to inquire as to the position. I found that it had not been possible to get complete information with regard to what had occurred early in the morning at the time when the "All Clear" was sounded, and that nothing was accordingly issued until everything had been verified sufficiently to make an official pronouncement. But—I think your Lordships will agree with me that I was right—I suggested that on occasions of that sort it is not necessary to await the full and official report of all that has occurred. If it is known, for example, that after an alarm of that sort no damage has been done and no lives lost—if that is an ascertained fact—that can be made known at once and public anxiety allayed, and it can be said that further details, as they come along, will be made known. And I think that the view will now be taken that, so far as it is possible to issue at once information that will assuage public anxiety, that can be done, if the public will have patience to await the fuller details. That is one difficulty that is going to confront us with regard to news of a military character.
Another feature, which is, of course, a novelty in this war, is the existence alongside the Press, the great organ of publicity, of the new means of publicity, wireless. That has created a whole series of new problems from the point of view of publicity; and among the earliest problems that have fallen to me to consider has been the problem of seeing that vis-à-vis the wireless, the British Broadcasting Corporation—which, of course, in its competition with the Press has enormous advantages, because it can go on all

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day and all night, and at any time—could not be allowed to prejudice in any way the reasonable rights of the Press, whose services at this time are more valuable than they can ever be in times of peace. That has been one of the problems of accommodation which I have had to take in hand.
There are many other difficulties to deal with. I have alluded to the difficulty of obtaining information, the peace-time reluctance which is so often felt by the official mind to provide news about what it is doing. But there are also very difficult mechanical impediments; after all even the air has its limitations as a vehicle of news, and even the ether can be occupied. The cables are limited, the apparatus is limited, and the competition at this moment for the use of those various vehicles of transmission is enormous. And one of the grievances and difficulties which it is my business to attempt to remedy is the fair apportionment of those facilities among the many people who are clamouring for their use. I have been able, I think, to achieve something there by seeing that Government publicity—that is, the matter that has to be transmitted for State reasons—shall not always have priority, because there are Government announcements which are not of an urgent character, and may very well be delayed; whereas no one knows better than your Lordships that stale news is no news, and we should assist as far as we can those who are transmitting their news to get it away as quickly as possible. I think we have been able to arrange a considerable mitigation of that difficulty.
There are also questions arising in this shape: I have a feeling—I hope your Lordships share it—that although at the moment we can give comparatively little war news, because there is comparatively little war news to give, it will be right to give our people such information as we can on subjects relating to the war, not necessarily relating to military activities. People in this country are at the moment in a state of disturbance, many homes have been broken up and many families separated; the routine of many lives is disturbed and a spirit of anxiety and sometimes of distress has been created. In these circumstances it is of the utmost importance that our people should have something to interest them, something
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that they can talk about, because they all want to talk about the war, and there are many things about this great national endeavour which are of real human interest and would furnish, I venture to think, many interesting topics of conversation. I have this morning, accordingly, had an opportunity of meeting several of my fellow Ministers, and have arranged with them that I should be the interpreter of their activities to the people. They are doing a great many things that the Government Departments in this country have never done before, and many of those things are exceedingly interesting. They provide topics of conversation which will interest and divert the minds which otherwise might merely remain in gloomy moodiness.
Here is the sort of thing which struck me at once as of interest, and which should be told. Last week the first claim to a pension in this war came in. The Minister of Pensions told us that the following day it was settled; within twenty-four hours of the pension claim being made, it was verified and settled. That is the sort of thing that people like to know has happened—that the Pensions Department is actually functioning, and is prepared to deal with claims as they come in, and deal with them quickly. Things like that are worth publishing. But there are a great many other things constantly happening, and I hope we shall be able, through the medium of the Press and of broadcasting, to give quite a picture to the public at home here of things that are happening, things which are of interest to them, and which can be told without in any way giving comfort to the enemy, or assisting the enemy in any way whatever.
I hope that in future we shall be able to do that, and also to give guidance upon a number of those puzzling things which are distressing the consciences of a great many people at the present moment as to what one might call the proper conduct of oneself in the war. A very difficult question is as to whether you should spend money or not spend money. The consciences of us all have been exercised just now by that type of problem. Then, even little things like going out at night in the dark, whether you should be allowed to use a torch or not—these are the things that people talk and think about. I am glad to say that already that matter has been taken

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up, and we are to be allowed to have a little kindly light for our feet, though whether it will lead us "o'er crag and torrent" I do not know. Things like this should be told, and should be told in comparatively simple language. It is so difficult for official communications to be other than official. No official could ever talk about taking a 'bus, he is always "employing means of transport." One should, in my Department, as far as possible explain things which are being done and arrangements which are being made in comparatively simple language, even at the sacrifice of that precision which I admire so much in our Government publications, but which, in another capacity, I have so frequently had to interpret.
Your Lordships would, perhaps, wish me to say, not in exculpation at all of the staff to which I have succeeded, but in explanation of the kind of things we are doing, that in the relatively short time which this Ministry has been in existence quite a number of things have been done largely to their credit rather than to their discredit. For example, on this important matter of assisting the Press to handle war news, arrangements have been made with the War Office to send down a General Staff officer of high rank to give confidential talks to accredited Press representatives at the Ministry at weekly intervals. Officers of similar rank from the Admiralty and the Air Ministry will come down to talk to the Press confidentially on set occasions, but whether these will be weekly or not we have not arranged. The Press are appreciative of seeing an actual officer in uniform who will speak to them responsibly on these matters in a way that I, as a civilian, cannot do, and answer technical questions and assist them in their problems. That is a real improvement and ought to be a real help to the Press. In the next place, we have arranged with the Service Departments that each of them shall nominate an officer of high rank to be detailed to my Ministry to act as advisers and suppliers of authentic information on military matters. I have already mentioned that I have concluded arrangements with several of the other Ministries for information upon matters of general interest to ourselves at home which I hope to be able to furnish to the Press.
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Just to give your Lordships one or two concrete examples of the kind of problems, a difficulty has arisen about photographing in this country. Much discomfort and dissatisfaction reached my ears as to the treatment of Press photographers. I am glad to say that the order which the Secretary of State for War issued prohibiting the taking of photographs of any kind of military subject in this country has been mitigated in this sense. Arrangements have been made only this morning with the War Office which will get rid of the trouble and which, I am glad to say, representatives of the Press accept as satisfactory. In effect, it means that any photographer who has been duly approved by the Ministry, and has received a permit from us, will be exempt from the prohibition provisions of the order on the understanding, of course, that his photographs will be subject to the usual censorship. That, I understand, has met the difficulty. We have also been able to make quite a large number of improvements in the means of issuing news from this country to foreign countries, and details of these were given in another place by the Lord Privy Seal yesterday.
Reference was made, and not unnaturally, by my noble friend Lord Camrose to the unhappy incident of Monday night. I do not wish to conduct a post mortem on that occurrence. It was most regrettable, and it ought not to occur again; but I am bound to say, in explanation at least of the part played by the Ministry of Information in this unhappy incident, that we were informed that there might be a general release of messages emanating from France relating to the arrival of British troops there. So far as we were concerned, that absolved us from regarding such an item of news as objectionable for military reasons. When that was subsequently cancelled from the same source, we had no alternative whatever but to rescind the publicity which we had already permitted. That is the explanation of the unfortunate incident of Monday night.
It has exhibited, and exhibits flagrantly, if I may say so, just what Lord Camrose has drawn attention to, that there ought to be far closer liaison in these matters so that there will not be a case of shilly-shallying about an item of news of that sort. Anyone who knows the conditions under which newspapers are produced—

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I have a little knowledge of these matters—can understand the confusion and upset which must have resulted from stopping newspapers which had been not only set up and printed, but also partially distributed, when the stop order came along. I sympathise entirely with the newspaper Press in their indignation at what happened on that occasion, but I should like to point out that the circumstances in which it happened were very exceptional indeed, and there is no probability, so far as I can help it, of a recurrence. I can only, on that matter, express our regret that they should have been put to much inconvenience.
All of us, I am afraid, will in this war suffer inconvenience and difficulties of one sort or another. We will make errors, and probably my Department is more exposed to the possibility of error than any other because of its peculiar position and peculiar duties; but I hope your Lordships, at any time when you feel any dissatisfaction with the methods of publicity of this Ministry, will assist it with your criticisms. I for one say at once how much I shall welcome those criticisms. I have spent all my life in the receipt of criticism, and it does not dismay me at all, but rather encourages me. I know that the criticism of these matters which I shall receive will be friendly criticism, and no friendlier action than friendly criticism is known to me. In conclusion, I would like to say I have to ask for some indulgence. Your Lordships will bear with me as a very new Minister who has only had a few days' experience. As regards the staffing and management of this undertaking, I am having a thorough overhaul made, but there are only twenty-four hours in the day, and it is difficult in so short a time to give complete satisfaction
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in an entirely new Ministry; but it will be my best endeavour to give to the Press, to foreign countries, and to Parliament such aid as I can in this difficult enterprise.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Lord for the very illuminating statement he has made, which I am sure has been welcomed by the whole House. What he has found it possible to say to us has fully justified the Motion that I placed on the Order Paper, and which I now ask your Lordships' permission to withdraw.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
3.19 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, it will only be necessary to hold a formal sitting of your Lordships' House tomorrow in order to take the First Reading of four Bills which will come to us from another place, including the Bill I mentioned yesterday for the control of employment. I propose that we should take the Second Reading of these Bills on Wednesday of next week, and the remaining stages on Thursday, followed by a Royal Commission. I propose, therefore, apart from the formal sitting to-morrow, that we should adjourn from now until Wednesday, and our meeting on Wednesday will be at four o'clock instead of three. The formal sitting tomorrow will be at four o'clock, and then, as I have said, we shall meet again next Wednesday at four o'clock also.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past four o'clock.