Sitting of 6 September 1939

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS OQUESTIONS.

  BROADCASTS (FOREIGN LANGUAGES).
  Mr. Arthur Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether any decision has now been taken to arrange for short broadcasts in Hungarian, Jugo-Slavian and other Eastern European languages?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): I have been asked to reply. Broadcasts in Hungarian were begun by the British Broadcasting Corporation yesterday, 5th September. It is hoped that broadcasts in Polish will start during this week and in Serbo-Croatian, Rumanian and Greek as soon as is practically possible. Other languages are under consideration.
  Mr. Dalton: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why there has been even the degree of delay which he has indicated in performing this obvious and very necessary duty by the Foreign Office?
  Mr. Butler: I cannot accept the suggestion that there has been any avoidable delay, and I can assure the hon. Member that there will be no delay in this all-important task.
  Mr. Graham White: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether broadcasts in Czech are under consideration?
  Mr. Butler: I have said that broadcasts in other languages are under consideration.
  Mr. Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of special broadcasts in German, addressed to Austria?

  POLAND (GERMAN AIR RAIDS).
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister what official information he has as to the extent that Germany is bombing the civilian population and unfortified cities of Poland?
  Mr. Butler: The information at present in my Noble Friend's possession is not conclusive. It tends to show that bombing by German aircraft has been generally against objectives serving military purpose and not indiscriminately against the civilian population as such, although many casualties among the civilian population have occurred.
  Mr. Henderson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any truth in the Press statements that the Germans have been using mustard gas in their attacks on Warsaw?
  Mr. Butler: My Noble Friend has received no official reports to that effect, but we have read in the Press that these gas bombs have been used.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Is it true that small towns well behind the lines were completely burnt to the ground by incendiary bombs?
  Mr. Butler: I have read that also.
  Miss Wilkinson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when we shall be in a position to get any definite information from the Minister, instead of what we have read in the Press a couple of days before?
  Mr. Butler: I appreciate the hon. Lady's anxiety for the latest information, but it is my duty to give to the House official information that has been confirmed. I would pay tribute to the telegrams which the Press receive, which are in many cases very quick and in most cases, no doubt, present an accurate picture of what has happened on the scene of operations.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: In view of the very great importance of accurate and full information, can the Foreign Office make arrangements to get confirmation of these reports?
  Mr. Butler: I can assure the hon. Member that in the special circumstances of the moment special precautions have been taken to see that our information is immediate, accurate and reliable.

  FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS (NEUTRALITY).
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether any official representations of neutrality have been received by His Majesty's Government from the Russian, Italian, Japanese, and Spanish Governments?
  Mr. Butler: No official communications on the subject of neutrality have been received from these Governments. But according to an official announcement made in Rome on 1st September, Italy will take no initiative in the way of military operations. My Noble Friend has been informed that a declaration of neutrality was issued by the Spanish Government at Burgos on 4th September. The Japanese Government have defined their attitude as one of non-intervention.

  PALESTINE.

    BANKS.
    Colonel Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the banks in Palestine were closed when there was no run on them, in view of the fact that they were not closed in England?
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): The right hon. Member's information is not correct. On the 25th August, as a result of nervousness among bank depositors caused by the international crisis, there was a general run on the banks in Tel Aviv, and heavy withdrawals also took place in Haifa and Jerusalem. In the circumstances the High Commissioner decided to proclaim at once a three-day bank holiday. At the end of this holiday all the banks were permitted to reopen, the local institutions being subject to certain restrictions.

    DETAINED JEWS AND ARABS.
    Colonel Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, as the Jews have offered their help to the British Government, he will now set free the unconvicted Jews imprisoned so long in Palestine concentration camps; and how many Jews and how many Arabs are still so confined?
    Mr. M. MacDonald: I am glad to say that we have received assurances of support from both the Jewish and the Arab
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    sections of the population. With regard to the first part of the question, I cannot give a general undertaking. Each case must be considered on its merits, and these cases are under review. On the 26th August, the last date for which I have figures, there were 1,700 Arabs and 175 Jews detained under the Emergency Regulations.

    CITIZENSHIP LAW.
    Colonel Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the object of the change enacted in the Palestine citizenship law whereby the wife of a Palestinian citizen does not acquire the nationality of her husband?
    Mr. M. MacDonald: This change was made in order to check the widespread practice of male Palestinian citizens contracting "marriages of convenience" with alien women, whom they divorce shortly after their arrival in Palestine. The practice aimed at introducing these people into Palestine in excess of the authorised immigration quotas.
    Colonel Wedgwood: May I ask why the Palestinian Jews should not marry whom they like?
    Mr. Butler: I would point out that in the year 1938 the proportion of divorces, shortly after marriage, to marriages contracted, was nearly 50 per cent.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Seeing that nobody can get into Palestine now, legally, why should not they be allowed to marry whom they like?
    Miss Wilkinson: In view of the fact that all the women's organisations in this country have been pressing for years for precisely this reform, that a woman on marrying a foreign subject should not necessarily acquire the nationality of her husband, and they have always been told that it was impossible to arrange that, could it not be arranged now in regard to women who were British before their marriage?

  CIVIL DEFENCE (EVACUATION).
  Mr. R. C. Morrisonasked the Minister of Health whether he will make clear the position of schoolchildren who were on holiday when evacuation took place, and, in view of the broadcast appeal to their parents not to bring them back,

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  whether they will be evacuated on their return; and whether in the case of those still on holiday allowances will be paid?
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): Local authorities have been notified that parents of children now away on holiday in receiving areas, who normally reside in areas which have been evacuated, can apply to the local authority in whose area they are at present to have their children billeted in the ordinary way. Such parents should therefore, not bring their children back.
  Viscountess Astor: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is doing all he can to get what we call refuge centres in the shape of nursing schools for children under 5, who cannot be evacuated but who will have to have some place of protection to which they can go in the event of air raids?
  Mr. Elliot: I do not think that arises out of the question on the Order Paper, but I can give the hon. Lady an assurance that that problem is receiving the closest attention.
  Mr. Ede: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he will be able to make arrangements for those children who have been voluntarily evacuated, to be sent at some time to the places to which their schools have been evacuated?
  Mr. Elliot: This problem and other problems of the rearrangement of the population will need to be looked at as soon as the population settles down after the big move.
  Miss Rathboneasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider arranging for the evacuation from evacuation areas of boys and girls between school-leaving age and 16, or at least of those under 15, for whom school accommodation can be provided; and whether the gradual substitution of adult for juvenile labour in evacuation areas and vice versa in reception areas has been considered?
  Mr. Elliot: The evacuation of boys and girls under the Government's plans is confined to school units and to children of pre-school age with their mothers or with some other responsible person. With the raising of the school-leaving age the
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  school accommodation in the reception areas will already be very heavily taxed. Any extension of the Government's plans of evacuation that may be deemed necessary will be considered with regard to the needs of the situation generally. The matter referred to in the last part of the question is not I think one that I can undertake to review at the present stage.
  Miss Rathbone: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the effect on the health of boys and girls in then early teens is likely to be worse than the effect on the younger children, and may have serious effects on their future welfare, and will he, therefore, endeavour to see whether something can be done to provide for the evacuation of these young people?
  Mr. Elliot: I will keep the question of this particular class under review in connection with the general examination of the problem.

  AGRICULTURE (MEAT SUPPLIES).
  Mr. JohnMorganasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the excellence of the grazing prospects, he will temporarily prohibit the slaughter of immature grazing livestock, such as lambs and young cattle, in order to secure maximum weight of meat supplies even at the expense of quality?
  The Minister of Agriculture (Colonel Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith): I fully recognise the importance of this question, which has been and still is receiving careful consideration. I do not think it desirable to take the action proposed at the present time, but I shall be keeping the matter under close review, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food.
  Mr. J. Morgan: Will this question and the question of the rationing of barley to brewers, for instance, be announced pretty soon, so that the industry may take full and definite measures affecting the present situation now, and not next year?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: It will be announced as soon as possible. Every possible indication will be given to the farmers.
  Mr. Morgan: Does the right hon Gentleman realise that precise and definite and not nebulous appeals to the

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  farming industry at the present time would be a help?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: Decidedly.

  TORPEDOING OF STEAMSHIP "ATHENIA."
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Pensions whether the officers and crew of the steamship "Athenia" will come within the scope of the legislation relating to personal injuries and insurance of personal effects; and whether their claims will be expeditiously dealt with?
  The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): The officers and crew of the steamship "Athenia" will certainly come within the scope of the recent legislation with regard both to personal injuries and to loss of effects. Claims under the former head will be dealt with by my Department, which has taken steps to obtain the earliest possible information as to the casualties, and when these are known there will be no delay in dealing with any claims which may arise. Claims under the latter head will be dealt with by the Board of Trade who, I understand, have made arrangements to deal with them without any delay. In fact a considerable number of men have already received compensation.
  Mr. Shinwell: I am obliged to the Minister for the answer. May I ask whether the benefits of this legislation will be extended to those passengers, British subjects, who were proceeding to Canada?
  Sir W. Womersley: As far as passengers are concerned, payment is being made by myself under the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act of 1939, which covers physical injury or death of those persons ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom and passing there from in the course of their duties. The other passengers will not be eligible for such contributions.
  Mr. Foot: Can the Minister say how soon the scheme will be ready?
  Sir W, Womersley: The scheme is practically ready now and will be published as soon as possible.
  Mr. N. Maclean: What attitude is being adopted with regard to the families of members of the crew who have been killed in this tragedy?
  Sir W. Womersley: I immediately sent one of my principal officers to Glasgow to work in co-operation with my chief officer there, to get into touch with the steamship company, ascertain the names of the men reported killed and get immediately in touch with their families.
  Mr. A. V. Alexander(by Private Notice) asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now able to give any further information as to the sinking of the steamship "Athenia," the casualties, the number of survivors, and in particular, the cause of the disaster?
  The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Churchill): Yes, Sir. Statements have now been taken on oath from the Chief Officer and numerous survivors, both British and American, which enable a fuller picture to be given than was possible on Monday.
  I regret to inform the House that the disaster may prove to be of greater magnitude than was indicated by earlier reports. As far as can be ascertained there were on board 1,418 persons, of whom 315 were crew and 1,103 were passengers, some 800 of whom possessed British or European passports, and over 300 possessed passports of the United States of America.
  It is now clearly established that the disaster was due to an attack, without warning, by a submarine. At 7.45 p.m. local time on the night of Sunday, 3rd September, a torpedo struck the ship abaft the engine room on the port side when she was 250 miles north-west of the coast of Ireland. Soon after the torpedo struck the ship the submarine came to the surface and fired a shell which exploded on "C" deck. The submarine cruised around the sinking ship and was seen by numerous persons, including American survivors, a considerable number of whom—I think 12 or more—have given affidavits to this effect.
  The House will realise that owing to the nature of the disaster accurate details of the number or the names of the victims cannot yet be ascertained. No estimate can be made as to how many were killed at the first explosion, nor as to the numbers drowned by the reported capsizing of several boats after the passengers had taken to them. Survivors have been picked up by two British destroyers, the "Knute Nelson," the "City of Flint," and it is

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  hoped by a Swedish yacht. At present some 125 passengers and crew are unaccounted for. It is still possible that a number of these may be aboard the Swedish yacht. Every effort is being made, by wireless and otherwise, by the Admiralty and the Donaldson Atlantic Line, the owners of the ship, to ascertain the names of the survivors. The steamship "Athenia" was not defensively armed—she carried no guns and her decks had not even been strengthened for this purpose. The House will wish me, I know, to convey on their behalf our profound sympathy with the relatives of those who may have been bereaved by this outrage, and also to those who at this moment are racked with the anguish of uncertainty and suspense.
  Mr. Alexander: May I ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he does not consider that this is a very different story regarding the consideration of the safety of the crew and passengers from that which is reported in respect of the sinking of the German ships "Olinda" and "Carl Fritzen"?
  Mr. Churchill: There could not be two more distinct and opposite cases. It will be found that the action taken in regard to these two German vessels is in accord with the accepted principles of international law. Every provision was made for the safety of the crew and the occupants of the vessels—they were not passenger ships—who were provided for in every respect before the vessels were sunk, and their lives are saved; and I observe that a paper of a neutral country, the United States, the "New York Post," stresses that the crew were given time to pack their belongings and take to the boats, and also that the captain of one of the ships, on arrival at Montevideo, expressed his gratitude for the manner in which they were treated.
  Mr. Alexander: May I ask whether the First Lord of the Admiralty will be able to make a further statement with regard to these other ships if a question is put to him to-morrow, and whether, with regard to the capsizing in some cases of the boats of the "Athenia," there will be the usual Board of Trade inquiry?
  Mr. Churchill: I should hope to be able to give the House any information desired.
  Mr. Lambert: Did this submarine leave Germany after the declaration of war, or was she waiting in anticipation of war?
  Mr. Churchill: I am afraid 1 cannot answer that at the moment, but if my right hon. Friend will put the point tomorrow, I will have the times taken and a calculation made.
  Sir Herbert Williams: How could a German submarine travel 1,500 miles in eight hours?
  Mr. R. Gibson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that several hundred of the survivors were landed in Greenock and many were received into the Greenock Royal Infirmary, and can he say how many are detained there and in such institutions elsewhere in the country?
  Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew: Did my right hon. Friend say 7.45 a.m. on Sunday?
  Mr. Churchill: 7.45 p.m.
  Mr. N. Maclean: Is it not the case that, since the tragedy happened on Sunday evening and the ship left Glasgow, called at Greenock and then at Liverpool, she must have left the place of departure at Glasgow prior to the declaration of war being published?
  Mr. Churchill: I think there is not the slightest doubt of that. This vessel left before the declaration of war on a peaceful mission, a totally unarmed ship taking passengers and returning Americans back across the Atlantic. It is quite clear, from the hours mentioned, that the submarine must have been in position waiting to pick up a prey upon the route. Therefore, the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) is perfectly clear.
  Mr. Cassells: Having regard to the original answer and the fact that I saw the "Athenia" a few hours before this unfortunate tragedy, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether we may have a definite assurance from him that the "Athenia" was in no way visibly or otherwise armed?
  Mr. Churchill
  Sir Assheton Pownall: Would not the two German ships that were sunk have been of some use to us if we had kept them?
  Mr. Churchill: That had occurred to me.
  Mr. Benjamin Smith: While not implying any criticism of the condition of the ship, but having regard to many statements made by persons rescued that the boats were dropped 30 feet from the davits and that in at least one case it was stated that one fid was not drawn, meaning that she went either by the bow or by the stern, would the First Lord undertake to see that every ship, before going to sea, has her davits and the whole of her gear thoroughly overhauled so as to give the fullest chance of rescue?
  Mr. Churchill: Obviously, all our tackle should be looked over, but that is a matter, I think, which is more for the Board of Trade.
  Commander Sir Archibald South by: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that ships leaving this country with refugees for places abroad should not carry more passengers than there is accommodation for in the boats provided in case of emergency?
  Mr. Churchill: That is a valuable point which will no doubt be noted by the Department concerned.

  HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT (WIRELESS RECEIVING SET).
  Mr. Vyvyan Adamsasked the First Commissioner of Works whether, in order that Members may enjoy the facility of listening to the broadcast news bulletins, he will place a wireless receiving set in some convenient place in the Palace of Westminster or wherever Parliament meets during the present emergency?
  The First Commissioner of Works (Mr. Ramsbotham): A wireless receiving set has been installed since last Saturday in Committee Room No. 11.

  EXPORTS AND IMPORTS.
  Sir Percy Harrisasked the President of the Board of Trade whether encouragement can be given to merchants and manufacturers to maintain the export trade, especially to the Dominions, so as to enable us to pay for our necessary imports; and whether it has been made clear in so far as it does not interfere with
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  essential war industries that goods should be produced for export as far as it is practicable?
  The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I am glad of this opportunity to emphasise the vital importance which His Majesty's Government attach to the maintenance of the export trade at the present time and the high priority which should be given to exports among the various demands on the country's economic resources. For their part, the Government will use every effort to ensure that this country's exporting capacity is used to the best advantage, consistently with the satisfaction of essential home requirements and overriding war needs. They trust that manufacturers and exporters in this country will, in the national interest, take the fullest advantage of all opportunities for export.

  SUMMER TIME.
  Mr. R. C. Morrisonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider extending the period of summer time?
  Sir P. Harrisasked the Home Secretary whether he will give consideration to the extension of summer time in order to make it easier for people to get home in daylight, and also to economise the use of electric light; and whether he will also consider making an appeal to traders to start business earlier and close earlier with the same object in view?
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): I fully agree with my hon. Friends that wherever artificial light can be saved by starting work and ceasing work at an early hour, this course should be followed, but in prescribing by law a period of summer time for the whole of the UnitedKingdom, account has to be taken of a number of considerations, including the effect on agricultural as well as on urban areas. After review of the various considerations it was decided in 1925 that the period of summer time might be prolonged by a fortnight so as to end on the first Saturday in October, but there was considerable opposition to this course, and at the moment all I can say is that I am looking into the matter again in the light of present-day circumstances.

  AIR-RAID WARNINGS.
  Miss Rathboneasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the airraid warnings and all clear signals given Sunday and early morning on Monday were by many people not understood; and will he consider arranging for the verbal description of the signals given through the British Broadcasting Corporation to be supplemented by sample signals, so as to accustom the public to the difference?
  Sir J. Anderson: I would refer the hon. Lady to the full statement which I made on this subject yesterday. As regards the second part of her question, I would only say that, while specimen signals have been given by the B.B.C. in peace-time, there would be obvious dangers in doing so in present circumstances.
  Miss Rathbone: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his reply. I assure him that I had not seen his answer of yesterday when I put the question down. May I ask him whether he is aware that quite a considerable number of people failed to be awakened by the air-raid signal this morning and the other day, in fact that some people, not very far from this House, slept through both warnings? Does not that indicate that the signals are not loud enough or long enough?
  Sir J. Anderson: The arrangements provide for the supplementing of the initial warning by sirens and by police whistles, and I am prepared to extend these ancillary devices to any extent which appears to be necessary.
  Mr. Boothby: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that these hooters appear to take some time to get into action and in the process there is a slight wail which is really very much like the air-raid signal? Can he not make some arrangements by which we may get a proper "All Clear" signal?
  Mr. Thorne: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the warning signals this morning were exceedingly good—in my opinion?
  Commander Oliver Locker-Lampson: Can we get the result of any such effort as that of this morning without waiting too long to know the result?
  Sir Herbert Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in West London
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  this morning there has been considerable confusion owing to the fact that the "All Clear" signal was given after the airraid warning?
  Mr. Benjamin Smith: It was not an "All Clear" signal; it was a second warning. And I want to ask why that was so?
  Sir J. Anderson: I shall certainly give due consideration to the suggestions which have reached me from every quarter. As regards the last point, it is a fact that there was a belated warning, and it is also the fact that this belated warning was misunderstood by personnel in the streets, who interpreted it by means of their whistles as the "All Clear." I shall try to eliminate that.
  Sir Charles Cayzer: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why such a long delay took place before the "All Clear" was given this morning?

  BANK OF ENGLAND (GOLD HOLDINGS).
  Mr. Greenwood (by Private Notice)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any statement to make-about the gold held in the Issue Department of the Bank of England?
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): Yes, Sir.The House already knows that, in order to strengthen our financial resources abroad, powers have been taken to place private holdings of gold, foreign exchange and foreign securities at the disposal of the Government. As a further measure to the same end, and with a view to concentrating all the Government's foreign resources in one reserve, the Treasury and the Bank of England have agreed that, except as regards a nominal amount, the whole of the gold now held in the Issue Department should be transferred to the Exchange Account as now constituted under the Currency (Defence) Act 1939. Gold to the value of approximately 280,000,000 will accordingly be so transferred to-day. This transfer will entail an increase in the fiduciary note issue of the Bank to 580,000,000 and a Treasury Minute authorising such an increase will be laid before Parliament.

  HURRICANE LAMPS.
  Mr. Gallacher(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Home Security whether he is aware that storm lamps clearly stamped "Made in Germany" are being issued to the hospitals in London, and as the issue of such lamps is causing grave disquiet and adverse comment, will he take steps to stop entirely the issue of any such or other goods made in Germany?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am not aware of any such issue being made from official sources. In any case, I doubt very much whether the country would be prepared to accept the implication in the hon. Member's question that we should not make the best use of the resources of goods and materials which at present happen to be in our possession in this country.
  Mr. Gallacher: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that it is a psychological mistake to issue such material for defence purposes at this time. If he does not think so why is it that we have these lamps in the House of Commons instead of the small square lamps?

  EUROPEAN SITUATION.
  Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to make any statement on the general situation?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): No, Sir, I am not in a position to make a statement to-day, but I hope to do so to-morrow.
  Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether this will be the beginning of periodical statements regarding the prosecution of the war, understanding, as I am sure the House does, that it does not require the disclosure of anything which is not in the public interest, and expressing also, I think, the desire of the House that this House and the country should be as fully informed as is consistent with that of the situation from time to time.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I am in full sympathy with that desire and will do my best to satisfy it, on the understanding, of course, which the right hon. Gentleman has indicated.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the Prime Minister what business it is proposed to take to-day; and whether he can make any statement with regard to the further stages of the Control of Employment Bill?
The Prime Minister: To-day we desire to obtain all stages of the first five Orders. The Control of Employment Bill will be postponed until next week. To-morrow we shall consider the Liability for War Damage (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and the Police and Firemen (War Service) Bill, which we expect to receive from another place to-day. We also propose to take a Motion to approve of additional Import Duties Orders Nos. 6 and 7, relating to iron and steel goods, which are on the Order Paper.

OLD AGE PENSIONS.
Mr. Stephen: Can the Prime Minister tell us whether the circumstances of old age pensioners are being taken into account; and since I do not suppose that the inquiry will now proceed, will any emergency steps be taken to increase these pensions, in view of the very difficult circumstances of pensioners—increasingly difficult, because so many members of families who are going on war service will not be able any longer to give that help which they have been giving to pensioners?
The Prime Minister: I could not answer that question without notice. If the hon. Member will put it down, I will endeavour to answer it.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to modify certain rights and liabilities with respect to goods lost or damaged by war." [Liability for War Damage (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill [Lords.]
And also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision with respect to constables and firemen serving in His Majesty's forces during the period of the present emergency, to suspend the right of constables and firemen to retire on pension during that period, to provide

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that war injuries shall be deemed to be non-accidental injuries for the purpose of enactments and other instruments relating to the pensions of constables and firemen, to amend section sixteen of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925,and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid." [Police and Firemen (War Service) Bill [Lords.]

LIABILITY FOR WAR DAMAGE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL [LORDS].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 266.]
POLICE AND FIREMEN (WAR SERVICE) BILL [LORDS].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 267.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  IMPORT DUTIES (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Order for Second reading read.
  3.24 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Yesterday I gave the Committee of Ways and Means a description of what this Bill does, and I do not think it necessary to amplify that description today. It would, however, only be courteous to answer the specific questions which were put to me by spokesmen of the parties opposite. I take, first, the smaller point which was put by the hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), who asked what was to be the position of the members and the staff of the Import Duties Advisory Committee if this Bill passed into law, with the result that there was nothing for them to do. The answer is that the staff will be used; some of its members have already been seconded to other Departments, principally to the Ministry of Supply, where their qualifications will obviously be very valuable. As regards the members of the Committee, I, too, on behalf of the Government, would like to pay a tribute to the work which the Committee have done over a long period of time. We trust that, before long, all this legislation will come to an end and that circumstances may allow them to resume their suspended activities and a work which has been of great value to the nation. For the moment, however, as a result of this Bill, that work will be suspended, and it is the intention of the Government that the experience and the service of the individual members shall be made available in other directions. I cannot say exactly how they will be occupied, but the House can take it that the ability, assiduity, and hard work which they have shown as members of the Committee will be made available to the State in other capacities during the war.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) asked me several questions. Important as his points were, about which he asked for an
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  assurance, they did not appear to be related to this Bill. This Bill is to suspend the statutory functions of the Import Duties Advisory Committee. The right hon. Gentleman was asking about matters of very high policy, and, therefore, in what I have to say I have to be careful lest I go too far and invite reproof from you, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. A. V. Alexander: I do not want the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to say anything which ought not to be said on this occasion, but I do not agree with his interpretation. The Government have gone to the extent of asking for special powers with regard to a certain class of goods in Clause 2 of the Bill, and there is no reason why they should not have sought powers in regard to other matters, if necessary.
  Captain Crookshank: The powers referred to in Clause 2 are powers which were dealt with in existing legislation. What I wanted to point out was that if the right hon. Gentleman was talking about the importation of foods which are taxed, such as sugar, that is not concerned with this Bill at all. There he is raising questions of a Budgetary character which it would not be proper to discuss now, and even if it were proper to discuss them now, I would not be the proper person to open up that field of discussion at this stage. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to do it. Of course, the policy of the Government in regard to the importation of foodstuffs in war time must have regard to all considerations, among which must be included the need to raise revenue, and I do not think I can take it further to-day.
  But if the right hon. Gentleman is not taking that very large point, but the smaller point of restrictions on imports of food and essential materials from the point of view of the consumer, then I can say this, that the Food (Defence Plans) Department is to become the sole importer of all essential foodstuffs, and price orders will be made in respect of all such foodstuffs. Of course, it may take some time to give full effect to all the plans, but each commodity is being brought under control as quickly as possible, and the right hon. Gentleman will have seen already, in the newspapers, statements and orders which have been issued on that point. I think the House

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  may rest assured that, by this method, the Government will do everything possible to see that adequate supplies are available at proper prices. If that is what the right hon. Gentleman has in mind, perhaps that reply will satisfy him for the moment, but there is another possibility. Perhaps he was thinking more of the quota regulations which exist in regard to a variety of commodities. That has nothing to do with the Bill, nor am I in a position to answer questions on the point. It is a matter for the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Agriculture, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will address his question to them. The Ministry of Supply are also giving effect to plans whereby purchases of essential raw materials would, in general, be subject, directly or indirectly, to their control. I think the right hon. Gentleman and the House may rest assured on this matter. While it is not exactly cognate to this Bill, which deals only with the administrative functions of the Import Duties Advisory Committee, I am glad to take this opportunity of answering what, I think, the right hon. Gentleman has in mind.
  3.30 p.m.
  Mr. Alexander: I am obliged to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for his answers, but I still feel that it was right to have raised the matters which I did raise on this Bill. It is an Import Duties (Emergency Provisions) Bill and is designed to assist the Government in freeing any imports which are essential to our national needs from any such embarrassments as duties and the like which might be said to interfere with their purchase. In my view, during a time when we are having to broadcast every night to farmers to increase production in this country because of a possible shortage of food, and when ships are beginning to be included in the category of submarine sinkings, as happened during the last War, it is vital that steps should be taken to extend the powers under the Bill, if extension of powers is necessary, in order to make the import of foodstuffs as of other raw materials as free as possible at the earliest possible moment. That is all the more essential, as we know from experience that with the inevitable increase of overhead charges in regard to food trades in the near future, the prices to the public
  552
  must be affected. We want them kept to the lowest possible limit, and we ought not to have a wordy fight at any stage as to whether we are getting the food of the people at the very lowest possible rate. I wanted that point emphasised, and I think that on the whole the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has shown that the Government have the point in mind. I do not, therefore, propose to press it further.
  With regard to his reference to the Import Duties Advisory Committee, I did not dwell upon that yesterday, and I do not propose to do so now, except to say that it would be interesting if, in the course of the direction of these matters by the Treasury, we find that we get favourable decisions to our importunities with far less difficulty and with far less protracted negotiations than is the case under the present procedure. It might well be that at the conclusion of the emergency period a resumption of that long-drawn-out and heavy procedure which has been in operation in connection with import duties may not be found so important as to be required.
  3.33 p.m.
  Sir Percy Harris: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman was courteous enough to reply to my point about the future fate of these three great gentlemen who have had the responsibility of advising the Treasury and guiding the House as to any new import duties or equally as to the removal of any restrictions. Incidentally, the personnel of the Committee has changed in the last few months. One of the members has now become Chairman of the British Broadcasting Corporation, and one is leaving his present office in a short time. I think we want to have it made clear, not merely to the House of Commons but to merchants and traders in general, what is behind this new procedure. I assume that it has been adopted in order to expedite, to quicken, in the light of our national danger, action that may be necessary to be taken by the Treasury, because the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Financial Secretary went out of his way to pay tribute to this procedure and to those concerned. What I wish to get, and what the country want to understand, is whether it is more or less a change of policy or an alteration of bias. I see the President of the Board

  553
  of Trade turns his head as though shocked, but I think we want guidance in the matter. Does it mean that whereas the genera] attitude of the Government certainly was that imports of manufactured goods at any rate were to be deprecated, now the machinery will be rather in the light of the need for commodities of various kinds, that, provided the import is not a luxury, if it can be brought into this country, it will be to the national gain? Are our merchants and business men to endeavour to make up the inevitable shortage in commodities, owing to the diversion of manufacturers to war industries at the present time? Will these new powers be used rather to modify the restrictions, or will they be used to increase them?
  Mr. MacLaren: The German submarines have taken over their functions.
  Sir P. Harris: Yes; as my hon. Friend says, the German submarines will be busy in supporting the policy of Protection. In the light of war conditions, we assume that any goods which come in and are not luxuries, but are necessaries, are to the national advantage. I am all in favour of pursuing the policy initiated in the last War by Mr. McKenna. It may be advisable to restrict the importation of luxuries in order to save tonnage, but I think this is an opportunity, in the new dispensation of changing the method, for the Government to make clear what the policy of the Government is in departing from what has been the policy of the Government, to have an impartial inquiry before the House comes to a decision. Is it in order to make importation easier, or is it in order to make importation more difficult?
  3.37 P.m.
  Mr. A. C. Reed: There is one point that I would like to make. On account of the war many manufacturing industries in this country will have their consumption output curtailed, and, it may be, almost working short time very shortly. On the other hand, during the last 12 or 18 months, we have had an enormous influx of manufactured goods from all over the world, partly brought about by other countries losing, for instance, their Far Eastern market, and in other cases wanting to sell goods where they could get foreign exchange. The imports of manufactured goods that we have had during the last 18 months are far in excess of
  554
  anything that has been wanted in this country, and often much to the detriment of our manufacturers. Therefore, I hope that when the Treasury are dealing with this Bill, when it becomes an Act, in the next few months, they will remember the British manufacturer and see that he is enabled fully to employ his workers.
  3.38 p.m.
  Sir Patrick Hannon: I am sure the House appreciates the action that has been taken by His Majesty's Government in suspending the activities of the Import Duties Advisory Committee and transferring them to the Treasury during the period of the present emergency, but may I ask my right hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in the case of industries which wish to maintain their vitality and have had to give up a certain volume of export trade—which, he will recognise, is a very important consideration in these times—careful consideration will be given to any industry making representations to the Treasury in order to maintain our home market? I am sure the Financial Secretary would himself take care in the case of any industry which might find itself embarrassed by restrictions which might be imposed that a careful and sympathetic hearing would be given to its case by the Treasury. With the Import Duties Advisory Committee certain considerations were always carefully examined in the case of particular enterprises, and I hope that that generous consideration which we all acknowledge has been extended by the Import Duties Advisory Committee to industries in this country working in competition with industries abroad, will be kept in the mind of the Treasury in dealing with the administration of import duties in the future.
  We recognise that the Government have had to take this important step, that we are in a time of emergency and cannot have prolonged negotiations, and that decisive action has to betaken by the Treasury hurriedly. At the same time, I am sure the Treasury will have regard to every consideration affecting the welfare and continued vigour of industrial enterprise in this country. I feel that before the House gives a Second Reading to this Bill we ought to unite in saying how deeply we appreciate the valuable work which has been done for the country since the Advisory Committee came into

  555
  existence. It was largely due to the wisdom and foresight of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and we acknowledge it as one of the great contributions that he has made to the economic development and vitality of the country in recent times. I hope that the distinguished gentlemen who have been responsible for the committee will feel that the House, the country, and those associated with industry are grateful for the services which they have performed. We hope that the Treasury, with the new powers given by this Bill, will follow the excellent example set by the Import Duties Advisory Committee.
  3.42 p.m.
  Captain Crookshank: My reply to the points that have been raised is in effect to refer to the speech which I made yesterday, but I recognise that it is not possible in these days for everybody to be in the Chamber continuously. I then explained that the object of this Measure was to suspend the statutory functions of the Import Duties Advisory Committee and to place them in the Treasury's hands. But I was also specific in saying that all the other machinery provisions which have to be gone through now are maintained. They are not suspended. There are still the reference to Parliament of the Orders, and consultation with the appropriate Minister, which includes the President of the Board of Trade above all. That is the answer to the hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris). Therefore, bearing in mind that in the legislation which we have been passing during the last few days we have given the President of the Board of Trade great powers on questions of both imports and exports, the hon. Baronet can rest assured that the considerations that he had in mind cannot, in point of fact, be overlooked by the Treasury and the Department which it has to consult. That is the answer also to the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. A. C. Reed).The Board of Trade has to be consulted.
  With regard to the importation of luxuries, the President of the Board of Trade has already dealt with them. He has published a long list of articles of that nature over which control of imports has been taken. The House may rest assured that the considerations which hon. Members have raised are already either
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  in mind or are covered by the Bill. I would remind the hon. Baronet and the House of what I said yesterday, that the functions of the Import Duties Advisory Committee were to make recommendations in order to foster British trade—a most desirable objective at all times. In the circumstances of to-day, however, those statutory functions have to be suspended and the power vested in the Government, which alone can take decisions on these points because of the vital importance of considering the control of imports and the availability of foreign exchange. It is because we are in time of war that we have to suspend the functions of the Committee and the considerations which actuated the Committee in making recommendations, because unfortunately to-day very different considerations must prevail.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  Bill considered in Committee pursuant to the Order of the House of 5th September.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
  CLAUSE I (Powers exercisable on recommendation of Committee: exercise without recommendation, and extension.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  3.45 p.m.
  Mr. Gledhill: Will it be possible under the Bill for an individual firm to make its approach to the Treasury? I appreciate that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has stated that the duties of the Committee have been taken over by the Treasury, but in the past the Committee have not dealt very favourably with individual cases. That may be all right in peace-time, but in war-time an individual firm may be producing goods of importance for the service of the country. If individual firms can make applications, will the Financial Secretary see that a proper department is set up to deal with them?
  3.46 p.m.
  Captain Crookshank: It is difficult on the spur of the moment to think of the kind of cases which the hon. Gentleman

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  has in mind, but I can tell him that there is nothing to prevent individual firms making any representations. The representations which are made in the normal course of things will, naturally, be considered.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
  Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Schedule agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
  INCOME TAX PROCEDURE (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  GOVERNMENT AND OTHER STOCKS (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
  CLAUSE I. —(.Transfer by deed or instrument in writing of inscribed stock.)
  Motion made, and question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  3.49 p.m.
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I would like to ask a question relating to Sub-section (5) of this Clause, which provides that:
  " Inscribed stock transferable by entry in the books of the Bank of England in respect of which the cashiers of the Bank or any of them are or is for the time being nominated as attorneys or attorney shall be excepted from so much "
  and so on. As I understand the position, this particular method dies apply in the case of certain Government Departments and other Government bodies which hold stocks in the books of the Bank of England. I should like to ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether this Sub-section relates solely to public bodies of that kind, or whether it has any other application, and, if so, what.
  3.50 p.m.
  Captain Crookshank: The right hon. Gentleman is right in saying that this Clause deals mostly with official holdings, that is to say, holdings in the name
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  of the National Debt Commissioners or in the name of the Crown Agents. In their cases the cashiers of the Bank are the appointed attorneys for the service of carrying out transfers. As I explained yesterday, that may have to be done by other methods, in certain instances, by an individual in an official capacity, and that is the reason why this Bill has had to be introduced. The right hon. Gentleman asks whether anybody else can have those cashiers as their attorneys. The answer is that it can be done, but I gather that it is in practice rather unusual. The reason why we are leaving that provision in the Bill is that it is convenient to keep that method open, and that is why, in those cases where there is an attorney—and I doubt whether there are many private cases—and where there are attorneys for public holdings, it is not made mandatory that the new method of procedure shall be adopted and the old one is kept alive.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
  Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill
  .Schedule agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT DEPARTMENTS (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."— [Sir J. Simon.]
  3.53 P.m.
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I am glad we have had this interval between the introduction of the Bill and the Second Reading stage to-day because it has given me the opportunity of a further discussion with the Comptroller and Auditor-General upon a point. As we left the Bill yesterday, it certainly seemed as though the abrogation of this counter signature by the Comptroller and Auditor-General would mean that any irregularity would not really be brought to the notice of the House of Commons until a considerable time had elapsed. The Comptroller and Auditor-General authorises me to say that that is not the case. Perhaps I

  559
  should explain that the Comptroller and Auditor-General is not a civil servant. He is a servant of the House of Commons and, therefore, is in an independent position, and his statements are statements which the House is entitled to hear. That would not be the case if he were a civil servant, because then, his mouthpiece would be a Minister.
  The Comptroller and Auditor-General has pointed out to me that if there were to be an irregularity, he would find it out in a very short space of time, possibly a matter of a few hours and certainly of a few days, and he has authorised me to state on his behalf that if such an irregularity were committed and he were able to find it out very shortly, he would regard it as his duty to take steps to inform Parliament at the very earliest possible moment. That does relieve the position from the anxieties which several of us felt when we first saw the text of this Measure. In view of that and of the statement which the Comptroller and Auditor-General has authorised me to make on his behalf, I do not propose to offer any opposition to the further passage of this Bill.
  3.55 P.m.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has been able to use the interval to ascertain the true position. As I said yesterday, the change that we were proposing to make in the altered circumstances was not of a fundamental character. Perhaps for convenience I might make a statement on the position in my own terms, though naturally I am in entire agreement with what the right hon. Gentleman has now ascertained. Under normal practice, when the Treasury asks for a credit it does not simply send a request to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but sends with the request all such documents as are necessary for the Comptroller and Auditor-General to form the opinion whether he ought to give the credit. The reason for the Bill is that circumstances might arise during the war in which that operation could not very well be performed, owing to disturbances
  560
  such as we can easily imagine. Although it might not be performed at the moment, it would seem most unlikely that it would take more than a day or two to get the documents to him, although in the meantime the money will have been issued. If the occasion arises the Treasury intend to continue to send such documents to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, even though it may be two or three days later, and, of course, if there were any irregularity, steps would be taken to bring it to the notice of the House.
  3.58 p.m.
  Mr. Benson: I think it is rather unfortunate that there is not in the Bill some time-limit as to supplying all this information to the Comptroller and Auditor-General after the credit has been granted. I accept all that the Chancellor says with regard to the probable working of things and the intentions of the Treasury, but this is such a fundamental, constitutional point that I think the safeguards ought to have been embodied in legislation.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill." —[Mr. Grimston.]
  Bill accordingly considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn." — [Mr. Grimston.]
  Adjourned accordingly at One Minute after Four o'Clock.

  REFUGEES.
  REFUGEES.
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, I have to acquaint the House that His Majesty has been pleased to create the Right Honourable Sir Thomas Walker Hobart Inskip, Knight, Lord Chancellor of Great Britain, a Peer of this Realm, by the title of Viscount Caldecote, of Bristol, in the County of Gloucester, with remainder to the heirs male of his body.
His Lordship, having retired to robe—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then resumed his seat on the Woolsack.
3.19 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, before we begin the business which is on the Order Paper of to-day, I ask your permission to say a few words on the changes of Ministers so far as they affect your Lordships' House. First of all, with your Lordships' permission, I would like to say a word as to the retiring Lord Chancellor, Lord Maugham, and to say, I am sure on behalf of all your Lordships but especially on behalf of my noble friends, with very great sincerity, how greatly we have appreciated his courtesy and his helpfulness to us in our work. I fear there have been times when we have caused him some anxiety, and possibly resentment. Accustomed to the measured language and the emotionless restraint of the Courts, our more mobile and searching phraseology in this place perhaps caused him some distress. But we have worked together with great friendliness and we thank him for all the help that he has given to us and express the hope that he will have pleasant memories of his association with us in this House.
It is a very special pleasure to me to welcome as Lord Chancellor Viscount Caldecote, and to congratulate him on assuming the very high office to which he has been called. An old colleague in
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another place, a strenuous opponent but an unwavering friend, we have fought many battles, those of us who were his colleagues—I, especially—in another place. He always brought great weight to bear on the argument which passed between us. I wish to assure him that, so far as it is consistent with our duty and our responsibility here, we shall give to him all the co-operation and assistance that we possibly can. We wish him very great happiness in his new responsibilities.
3.22 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, may I be allowed to add a word to what has fallen from the noble Lord, Lord Snell? I will not attempt to enumerate all the noble and learned Lords who have sat on the Woolsack since I had the honour of a seat in your Lordships' House. They would run well into double figures and I have never ceased to admire the dignity and the eloquence with which they have filled that most important office. I think it is a most fortunate matter for His Majesty's Government that in the appointment by His Majesty of Lord Caldecote to the office of Lord Chancellor, they get the benefit at this moment, when the Navy is in all our thoughts, of his vast, almost unrivalled, experience in matters connected with the Navy; and it is evident to us all that in those matters both his care and his counsel will be of value. I would also like to join the noble Lord, Lord Snell, in assuring your Lordships of the respect we have all felt for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Maugham, during his term of office, and His Majesty's Government are again to be congratulated on still having the benefit of his vast experience and his incomparable legal acumen. Like the noble Lord, I wish the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack every possible prosperity in his office.
3.25 p.m.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, may I, in one sentence, associate myself, representing the Spiritual Peers, with what has been said with his wonted felicity by the noble Lord, Lord Snell, and with what has fallen from the noble Marquess? It is a very special pleasure to me that we

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have on the Woolsack not only a distinguished lawyer and a very able administrator, but, if I may say so, a much valued personal friend.
3.26 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, words would be inadequate to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, the noble Marquess, the most reverend Primate and to your Lordships on this occasion. I desire to thank the noble Lord, the noble Marquess and the most reverend Primate for their most generous words. Encouraged by them, I hope I may have wisdom to discharge my duties and, although I know that I shall often need the forbearance and indulgence of your Lordships, I submit myself to the service of your Lordships' House.
3.27 p.m.
LORD MAUGHAM: My Lords, I am deeply grateful for and touched by the remarks which have fallen from the noble Lord, the noble Marquess and the most reverend Primate. With regard to them, so far as I am concerned, I must say that I am merely conscious of having done my duty so far as it was within my power. Nevertheless, I shall long remember with gratitude the observations to which I have referred, and I will add this, that I shall never forget the uniform courtesy and kindness with which your Lordships have treated me during my time on the Woolsack, and also the fact that my shortcominngs have always been treated with a blind eye. I thank your Lordships very deeply.

THE SINKING OF THE "ATHENIA."
3.28 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government a Question of which I have given them private notice—namely, whether they are now able to give any further information as to the sinking of the s.s. "Athenia," the casualties, the number of survivors, and in particular the cause of the disaster.
EARL STANHOPE: Yes. Statements have now been taken on oath from the Chief Officer and numerous survivors, both British and American, which enable a fuller picture to be given than was possible on Monday. I regret to inform
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your Lordships that the disaster may prove to be of greater magnitude than was indicated by earlier reports. As far as can be ascertained, there were on board 1,418 persons, of whom 315 were crew and 1,103 were passengers, some 800 of whom possessed British or European passports, and over 300 possessed passports of the United States of America. It is now clearly established that the disaster was due to an attack, without warning, by a submarine. At 7.45 p.m. local time on the night of Sunday, September 3, a torpedo struck the ship abaft the engine room on the port side, when she was 250 miles north-west of the coast of Ireland. Soon after the torpedo struck the ship the submarine came to the surface and fired a shell which exploded on "C" deck. The submarine cruised around the sinking ship, and was seen by numerous persons, including American survivors who have given affidavits to this effect.
The House will realise that owing to the nature of the disaster accurate details of the number or the names of the victims cannot yet be ascertained. No estimate can be made as to how many were killed at the first explosion, nor as to the numbers drowned by the reported capsizing of several boats after the passengers had taken to them. Survivors have been picked up by two British destroyers, by the steamships "Knute Nelson" and "City of Flint," and, it is hoped, by a Swedish yacht. At present some 125 passengers and crew are unaccounted for. It is still possible that a number of these may be aboard the Swedish yacht. Every effort is being made, by wireless and otherwise, by the Admiralty and the Donaldson Atlantic Line, the owners of the ship, to ascertain the names of the survivors. The s.s. "Athenia" was not defensively armed—she carried no guns, and her decks had not even been strengthened for this purpose. The House will wish me, I know, to convey on their behalf our profound sympathy with the relatives of those who may have been bereaved by this outrage and also to those who at this moment are racked with the anguish of uncertainty and suspense.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends, may I associate them and myself with the expression of sympathy which has just fallen from the noble Earl? May I ask him two further questions? First, what steps His

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Majesty's Government now propose to take in view of this atrocious crime? The noble Earl will remember that he said the War Cabinet would be considering this matter and would take the necessary steps as soon as the facts were established if they proved to be as it was originally believed they were. We want to know what is being done about it. We place great importance upon that as upholders of International Law. I speak for all my noble friends and for the whole of my Party. We do not just want expressions of outrage. We want this sort of thing stopped, and there is international machinery for bringing it to an end. That is a matter that requires very careful legal and diplomatic consideration. The noble Earl is better aware than I am of the means which exist for that purpose. I do not speak of reprisals. I speak of legal machinery for bringing these crimes home. I must not be taken, on behalf of my noble friends, as advocating reprisals, though they are not ruled out if they are of a legal, recognised kind.
The second question is this. I know what the answer will be, but it is just as well that the public, and the seafaring community in particular, should be quite certain. Is it not a fact that the seamen and officers who were lost in the course of their duty, injured or killed, are entitled to compensation under the emergency legislation we have passed during the last few days, despite the fact that the ship sailed before the outbreak of hostilities?
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's first question, I am not yet in a position to say what action the War Cabinet are proposing to take in the matter, but of course, as he himself said, there is one thing we certainly shall not do, and that is attack merchant ships belonging to the German nation in the way in which they attacked the "Athenia." Such other steps as will be taken will, I trust, prove adequate, but that is not one of them, as the noble Lord is the first to recognise. As regards the second question, I think I am correct in saying that undoubtedly these officers and men in the "Athenia" are covered by the legislation we passed a few days ago. I have not had time to look into the matter, because I did not know the noble Lord was going to raise it, but I am perfectly certain that from the moment the
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crisis began, whether a ship had sailed or not, it would be covered by the legislation your Lordships agreed to recently.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am much obliged to the noble Earl. I am sorry I did not give him notice that I was going to ask this question, but time was rather pressing. May I remind him that my noble friends and I raised this question of compensation being made retrospective in this way, and that a satisfactory assurance was given by the Government that they believed that to be the case? Therefore there should be no difficulty.
EARL STANHOPE: I do not think there is any doubt, but we have passed so much legislation in the past few days that it is difficult to keep it all in mind.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: May I ask my noble friend at what time the disaster occurred?
EARL STANHOPE: At 7.45 p.m. on Sunday, September 3.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: That would establish the fact that it was broad daylight, and that all the statements which have been obtained are obvious facts.
EARL STANHOPE: It was getting towards evening, but there must have been plenty of visibility, particularly at sea.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Visibility must have been perfect because this was two hundred miles west of Ireland, which means two hours difference. I want to emphasize that to show that the statements made by the witnesses are obvious facts.
A NOBLE LORD: It was 7.45 p.m. local time.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I beg to move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting.—(Earl Stanhope.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

LIABILITY FOR WAR DAMAGE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
3.37 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill deals with a group of cases in which the goods of one person are in the possession of another. The question always arises, when damage takes place in these circumstances, as to the liability for repair or for payment in respect of the damage. The Bill deals with cases of damage by war. The position in Common Law may be stated very broadly and generally. It is that the person who is in possession of the goods—called the bailee—is only liable in the event of his negligence having caused the damage; that is to say, he would be under no liability to repair or make good war damage. There are two exceptions to that rule—that he keeps the goods after the bailment or possession of the goods should have been terminated or he departs from the terms of the contract, say, by removing the goods to a place not authorised by the owner of the goods. But, in general, the position of goods is regulated or decided in such cases by a special contract which may contain an absolute undertaking that the goods shall be returned at a particular time or in their proper state, and the bailee may be under liability—and very often is—to insure the goods.
Clause 1 of this Bill provides that in all such cases as I have mentioned, except those express contracts to the contrary, which are related to war, the bailee shall not be liable for war damage. That is the rule now proposed in Clause 1, subject to the two exceptions I have mentioned. I propose at a later stage to ask your Lordships to agree to a small Amendment to Clause 1, which will come in at the end of subsection (2), to provide that where there are reasonable grounds for the bailee removing the goods to another place for the purpose of additional security he shall still be entitled to the protection which Clause 1 gives to him. Clause 2 deals with the case of goods on approval or sale or return, and it provides that liability for war damage should not fall upon the buyer. Clause 3 applies
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the same principle in the relief of innkeepers from liability, and innkeepers as such will be relieved from having further liability for loss or damage. Clause 4 deals with the case of fire arising from war when the goods have been made the subject of a pledge, and the loss in this case will lie where it falls. The pawnbroker is not to be liable to make any payment in respect of the value of the pledge and unless (in the case of damage) the pawnbroker redeems the pledge he shall not be liable to repay the loan.
Clause 5 deals with the same principle applied to a rather different subject matter. It applies to Customs Duty and Excise Duty, and the provisions contained in Clause 5, subsections (1) and (2), deal with the case where the goods are entirely lost by war and where the goods are damaged by war. The duty will not be chargeable where the goods have been lost by war before the duty has been paid. In the case of damage by war where the duties are chargeable upon the value of the goods, the value upon which the duty is payable will be the damage value. Where the duty is assessable upon the weight or quantity of the goods the goods may be abandoned if the owner so pleases to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, and thereupon the duty shall not be chargeable; otherwise it will be upon the full rate of duty notwithstanding the damage to the goods. The Bill applies to Scotland and the other provisions that are contained in the Bill are for that purpose. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.42 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, we do not offer any opposition to this Bill, but I would like to ask the noble and learned Viscount, The Lord Chancellor—if he will excuse my ignorance—to tell me the meaning of the Latin phrase in Clause 6, page 4, line 4—locatio operis faciendi. I apologise for my Latin being so rusty, but probably the noble and learned Viscount has been using Latin more recently in his legal work, and perhaps he will tell others of your Lordships who might be as ignorant as I am—there are not many I am sure—what exactly it means. That will save whoever takes this

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Bill in another place a similar explanation. As their time is less valuable than ours, if that is done now it will help us to get the Bills back so that we can get on with the more important work.
That is the only question I venture to ask the Lord Chancellor, but I want to take this opportunity on behalf of my Party of raising a matter of principle. This Bill now says that the person who otherwise would get compensation because of losses for war damage is not to get compensation. That, in a sentence, is what it is. Therefore in any case that person loses. On the other hand, we have passed legislation insuring warehousemen who keep stocks needed for the nation at the present time, insuring grocers keeping extra foodstuffs who suffer loss through war damage, and we also insure shipowners, of whom I see several present amongst your Lordships. The moment they have a ship lost at sea they get the value of the hull and so on. But we are not yet in possession of the Government's intentions. We do not want to complain about this. I only want to press this point now as it is apposite. We are not in possession of the Government's intentions with regard to damage to ordinary property, hereditaments, and so on, and this matter has been for a long time exercising the minds of a number of small property owners and large property owners as well. We raised this matter in your Lordships' House before the outbreak of war. The Government, when they were pressed, eventually said that they were going to appoint a Committee of business men. I do not remember whether they were appointed or not, or, if they were appointed, who they are. I would be glad to know if it is intended still to appoint these business men to look into this matter of compensation for war damage to ordinary property.
EARL STANHOPE: May I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? I understand the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, is to ask a private notice question about that to-morrow.
LORD STRABOLGI: I did not know about that, and I do not want to anticipate what the noble Viscount has to say about it. I will say nothing about
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the Committee, but I want to say something on the broad question, and I am sure the noble Viscount on the Liberal Benches will be glad to support me in principle. The Government have made very heavy weather about this question. I speak as a property owner myself, and I know I speak for thousands of property owners in the country. We are quite prepared to subscribe at once to a fund and to take out of that fund, if we have to make claims upon it owing to loss by war, what the fund will bear. It does not matter as long as there is some fund and we know we can get some compensation if our property is destroyed by enemy action. There really should not be any difficulty about this. The business men I have spoken to, and those who have written letters to The Times newspaper, have pointed out that there should not be any difficulty or delay. We want to know that there is to be some compensation.
On the occasion of the last War the Government had an insurance scheme of this kind, and they made a profit of £10,000,000 out of it, which was very good for the general taxpayer. It worked perfectly well. A great deal of damage was done by enemy aircraft in various parts of the country, particularly in cities like Hull, which I represented at that time, and where the damage was very great. It was not known how great was the damage, but it was all compensated for in due course. What we do not want is to have to wait perhaps for years until the Government have assessed what is the whole amount that has to be paid and how much money there is to pay. In the meantime, many property owners may be ruined. I speak particularly for the small property owners whose houses are perhaps destroyed and who will have to whistle for the money. We will pay our shot. We will pay into a general fund. We will not expect to get the whole of the compensation at once, but we want something at once to enable us to get some relief for the damage suffered.
In saying this, I speak what is felt by thousands of small property owners, including workingmen who are buying their houses on an instalment plan and who will be ruined if their houses are destroyed and they get no compensation. I only want to take this opportunity of seeing that this question is at present in the minds of the

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important members of the Government who sit in your Lordships' House so that when other things have been taken care of perhaps they will be able to appoint someone to look after this matter. I know perfectly well that I am speaking not only for my Party, who feel very strongly about it, but also for large property owners in the country. I hope we shall get some comfort from the reply of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack.
3.48 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord asked me the meaning of a phrase that appears in this Bill applying the Bill to Scotland. The term is a Scottish phrase, although it is in Latin. I understand that it refers to a case in which the person who has possession of the goods is under contract to perform some work upon them. With reference to the other question asked by the noble Lord, I can assure him that the Government have been alive to the difficulty of this question. It is under constant consideration, but I can assure him that the circumstances of the last War afford very little guidance to those who are considering the circumstances that may arise in the present war with regard to damage by war. As I have said, the matter is under constant consideration, and the Government will no doubt make a statement when their consideration is ended.
3.50 p.m.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, committed to a Committee of the whole House forthwith.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Liabilities in respect of bailments.
(2) Nothing in this Section shall relieve a bailee of any liability for loss of or damage
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to any goods occurring while the goods are being kept or transported in a manner or at a place which is contrary to the terms of any contract relating to the custody or transport thereof.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: As the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack announced, there is an Amendment to be moved which he has handed in in manuscript. The Amendment is to page 2, line 5, at end, to insert "unless the bailee satisfies the Court, in any proceedings brought to enforce any such liability, that he had reasonable grounds for believing that the goods were less likely to be lost or damaged while being kept or transported in that manner or at that place than while being kept or transported in accordance with the teems of the contract."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move the Amendment which has just been read. I apologise to your Lordships for not being in a position to have the Amendment printed, but your Lordships are aware of the circumstances in which these Bills are being prepared. It has been thought right, for the reasons I have mentioned, to insert this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 5, at end insert ("unless the bailee satisfies the Court, in any proceedings brought to enforce any such liability, that he had reasonable grounds for believing that the goods were less likely to be lost or damaged while being kept or transported in that manner or at that place than while being kept or transported in accordance with the terms of the contract.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Amendment reported.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 3a; Amendments (Privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

POLICE AND FIREMEN (WAR SERVICE) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
3.52 p.m.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, the main purpose of this Bill is to safeguard the position of members of a police force or a fire brigade who may serve in His Majesty's forces during the present war. The Bill deals also with some minor points in relation to police and fire services on which emergency legislation is required. Broadly speaking, the provision to be made for the police and firemen is similar to that being made for other services. This Bill closely follows the Order made under the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Act. As regards pay, the police authority or the fire authority are empowered under Clause 1 of the Bill to make the service pay of a policeman or fireman who joins His Majesty's forces up to the rate of pay which he would have received in the police force or fire brigade. Where this is done the appropriate superannuation deductions, amounting to five per cent. of the pay, are to be made.
As regards superannuation, the position is slightly more complicated than is the case with regard to other services. Clause 4 of the Bill provides that if a policeman or fireman who has joined His Majesty's forces is killed or disabled, he or his dependants shall be entitled to the benefit which would have been payable under the existing law if he had died or retired in consequence of an injury received otherwise than in the execution of his duty as a policeman or fireman. The clause also provides that the police or fire authority may in their discretion make a grant at a higher rate so as to bring any grant payable from Navy, Army or Air Force funds up to the special rate of pension or allowance which would be payable if the man had died or been disabled from the result of an injury not of an accidental kind received
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in the execution of his duty. The only other provisions of the Bill to which I need refer are those contained in Clause 10 which suspend the right of a member of a police force or fire brigade to retire on pension without a medical certificate except with the consent of the appropriate authority, and Clause 11 which provides that a war injury suffered by a member of a police force or a fire brigade while on duty shall be deemed to be non-accidental and it will therefore attract the maximum rate of pension. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived. Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3a: Amendments (Privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
4.57 p.m.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I propose that we should now adjourn until to-morrow at three o'clock.
LORD SNELL: May I ask if the noble Earl is able to say anything about what the business is likely to be to-morrow?
EARL STANHOPE: Yes, it is proposed that we should take the Import Duties (Emergency Provisions) Bill, the Income Tax Procedure (Emergency Provisions) Bill, the Government and Other Stocks (Emergency Provisions) Bill, the Exchequer and Audit Departments (Temporary Provisions) Bill and the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Bill. I understand that the Control of Employment Bill has been postponed.
House adjourned at four minutes before four o'clock.