Sitting of 23 November 1939

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    ASSISTANCE (APPEAL TRIBUNALS).
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour the reasons for discontinuing the practice of inviting workmen's representatives to sit on the Appeal Tribunals under the Unemployment Assistance Board; and, in view of the fact that the decisions of these tribunals are final, will he take steps to restore the normal practice?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): The modifications in the practice relating to Appeal Tribunals under the Unemployment Assistance Act to which the hon. Member refers were introduced at the outbreak of war in the expectation that conditions arising out of the war would make it impracticable to secure the regular attendance of all the members of the tribunal. The normal practice has now been restored.

    WINTER ALLOWANCES.
    Miss Wilkinsonasked the Minister of Labour why unemployed men in the hostel at Hebburn who have received the extra winter relief of is for the last two winters, have now been refused it when their conditions remain the same but their commitments are greater owing to the increased cost of living?
    Mr. E. Brown: I understand from the Unemployment Assistance Board that arrangements have now been made to pay these men winter additions, with effect from the commencement of the period during which winter allowances are in operation.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. McEnteeasked the Minister of Labour what number of men, women, boys, and girls were registered as unemployed at the outbreak of war; what is
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    the number to-day; and will he make a statement of the steps being taken to organise this wasting labour power for productive work?
    Mr. E. Brown: As the reply includes a table of figures I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. McEntee: Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question which is not concerned with figures?
    Mr. Brown: As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement I made in the House yesterday.
    Mr. McEntee: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statement he made yesterday is not the same kind of statement which he has been making for the last 18 months, and when can we have something done instead of so much talk?
    Mr. Brown: I think the statement I made was most effective, and that it was approved of.
    Following is the reply:
    The Table below shows the numbers of men, boys, women and girls registered as unemployed in Great Britain at 14th August and at 16th October, 1939.

    Numbers registered as unemployed at

    14th August, 1939

    16th October, 1939

    Men, aged 18 and over

    908,752

    903,127

    Boys, under 18 years

    38,347

    43,920

    Women, aged 18 and over

    245,209

    417,798

    Girls, under 18 years

    39,384

    65.793

    Total

    1,231,692

    1,430,638

    As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement I made in the House yesterday.

    CHAUFFEURS.
    Mr. McEnteeasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that large numbers of chauffeurs have become unemployed as a consequence of petrol rationing and of personal economy by private motor car owners; and will he

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    endeavour to secure employment for some of these men by the release of such ambulance, lorry and motor car drivers as are now employed on air-raid precautions and other war work and who are in receipt of wages but who do not normally require to work for wages?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am aware that the number of chauffeurs registered as unemployed has increased since the outbreak of war. Every effort is being made to find them work either in their own occupation or in any alternative occupation for which they may appear to be suitable. As regards the second part of the question, I have consulted my right hon. Friend the Minister of Home Security, and I understand that he would not feel justified in suggesting the replacement of competent drivers who have volunteered and have now been trained in air-raid precautions or other war work, by others who have not had the specialised training required for the duties involved.
    Mr. McEntee: Is it not a fact that these chauffeurs do not require any training, because it is their living, the work they have done all their lives, and that as these jobs have been taken by people who do not require wages these chauffeurs have to go on the dole?
    Mr. Brown: My right hon. Friend does not take that view at all. The question I am asked to answer is about air-raid precautions. There is a double side to it. There is the question of driving and competency to carry out other work.
    Mr. McEntee: With all due respect, that was not the question. The question was whether these people, who are not usually earning wages, are now taking these jobs?

    COST OF LIVING.
    Mr. Daggarasked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to state the attitude of the Unemployment Assistance Board towards the need for increasing the allowances to the unemployed to meet the increase in the cost of living?
    Mr. E. Brown: The matter is under consideration of the Unemployment Assistance Board, and I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Shinwell: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be in a position to
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    make a statement? Does he appreciate that time is passing, and that there is an increase in the cost of living?
    Mr. Brown: I am aware of that.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what the material is which he is examining?
    Mr. Brown: The answer is that the Board think it their duty to examine the position in the light of their statutory duties.

    ALLOWANCES (DEDUCTIONS).
    Mr. Daggarasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, as a result of a young man engaged in the mining industry having received an increase in his wage of 2s. per week because of the increase in the cost of living, the local officer of the Unemployment Assistance Board at Nantyglo, Monmouthshire, is deducting that amount from his father's, Mr. J. Thomas's allowance; and whether he is prepared to take the necessary action to prevent the continuance of this practice, as no financial benefit accrues either to the family or to the young man because of the recent increase in wages?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am making inquiries into this matter, and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.

    LAND SETTLEMENT ASSOCIATION.
    Miss Wilkinsonasked the Minister of Labour (1) the total amount of money advanced from public funds and private sources to the Land Settle-men* Association, Limited, in gifts or loan; and whether he has any statement to make on the present position of that association;
    (2) how many holdings of the Land Settlement Association are vacant; and whether he has any plans for the utilisation of the estates of the Land Settlement Association in order that the public funds invested in that organisation shall not be wasted and that the agricultural production of the country should benefit accordingly?
    Mr. E. Brown: The total amount of money advanced to the Land Settlement Association from public funds is £1,968,544, and I am informed that the

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    sum of £160,348 has been advanced from private sources. The total number of small holdings available is 1,030, of which 186 were vacant on 31st October, 1939. At a time when food production is a paramount consideration it is not proposed to recruit any more inexperienced industrial unemployed workers who require a long period of training, but active steps are being taken to fill all the vacant holdings with experienced agricultural tenants. In the meantime the vacant holdings are being cultivated by the Land Settlement Association in consultation with the county war agricultural committees. Undeveloped estates have been either let or are being farmed by the Land Settlement Association.
    Miss Wilkinson: My I ask whether the Minister is going to publish the report of the committee of inquiry into the Land Settlement Association, and also whether anything is being done to preserve the very expensive machinery which, I am informed, is being left to rust on many of these holdings which have been left vacant?
    Mr. Brown: Perhaps the hon. Lady will put those questions down.
    Mr. T. Williams: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any information about what happened to settlers who found they were unsuited for this work?
    Mr. Brown: Perhaps that question could also be put down.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what part of the country is covered by the activities of the Association?
    Mr. Brown: The same request applies to this supplementary question.

  MILITARY TRAINING.

    MEDICAL EXAMINATION.
    Dr. Howittasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that many men who have been passed fit by medical recruiting boards have very soon been found to be far from fit; and whether he will take steps to see that all such mistakes are reported at once to the medical board which passed the man a fit and so prevent the recurrence of such cases?
    Mr. E. Brown: My information does not confirm my hon. Friend's statement that many men are found to be unfit for service after medical examination, but I am carefully examining the position and will give consideration to his suggestion in the course of my examination. A few cases have been brought to my notice, and I have always arranged for reexamination.
    Dr. Howitt: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that a lot of unnecessary suffering is caused by unfit men being passed for active service, and may I ask whether it would be possible for the boards to have the power to refer doubt-lul cases to specialists before the men are passed?
    Mr. Brown: It is facts of that kind which I am now examining.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Are these the same medical men who are employed by the Ministry of Pensions and always find the men they examine fit to work?
    Mr. Brown: The medical board consists of a chairman and four other medical men.

    UNIVERSITY STUDENTS.
    Mr. Kennedyasked the Minister of Labour how far university students are allowed to finish their courses without interruption for the purpose of military training; and whether he has considered a widespread desire that all students who are in the middle of their arts course should get the benefit of the list of reserved occupations?
    Mr. E. Brown: Technical committees attached to University Joint Recruiting Boards are empowered to recommend in suitable cases that students who have reached a sufficiently advanced stage in their study of certain specified subjects of a scientific or technical nature should be employed on scientific or technical work either in the armed Forces or in industry or should complete their course of study before engaging in such work. As regards postponement on account of exceptional hardship, students of any university can on this ground apply individually for postponement of their liability to be called up for service. Steps are being taken to bring test cases of students before the Umpire, who is the final authority, and the principles laid down in his decisions will be made public.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to make a statement in regard to the Arts-Divinity students?
    Mr. Brown: I think very soon.

    ENLISTMENT APPLICATION.
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. Donald Sutherland, who is registered in the Central Register No. C.R. 52434, applied to enlist in the Queen's Westminsters, and was, on 14th November, 1939, accepted at the battalion headquarters, but was turned down by the Ministry of Labour official at the Holloway Road recruiting station because of his registration in the Central Register; that he is still without instructions from the Ministry and although registered at the Employment Exchange, Broadley Street, N.W.8, is still without employment; and whether he has any statement to make as to employment for Mr. Sutherland?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am making inquiries, and will let the hon. Member have a reply as soon as possible.
    Mr. Gibson: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the anxiety of this Scotsman to serve his country and that his efforts are frustrated by these delays?
    Mr. Brown: I must refer the hon. Member to my answer.

    KING'S ROLL.
    Sir Smedley Crookeasked the Minister of Labour the numbers of men now employed under the King's Roll scheme; the numbers at the nearest comparative date for 1938; and whether the difference is a fair reflection of the increase in the numbers of the civilian population now employed by the Government and local authorities and on Government contracts?
    Mr. E. Brown: As regards the first part of the question, I regret that no information is available as to the number of men now employed under the King's Roll scheme. The latest information available relates to 3rd July, 1939; at which date the number of men employed under the scheme was 327,779 as compared with 318,286 at 4th July, 1938. As regards the second part of the ques-
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    tion, I have no doubt that the scheme has been of great value to disabled ex-service men.
    Sir S. Crooke: Will my right hon. Friend use his well-known persuasive powers to induce the King's National Roll Committees throughout the country to make a special effort to place these disabled ex-service men in work?
    Mr. Brown: We are always doing that, and my answer shows that the scheme has had very considerable success.
    Sir S. Crookeasked the Minister of Labour the position of the King's Roll National Council and local King's Roll Committees in regard to the holding of meetings during the present emergency period; and what steps are being taken to foster the interests of men affected by the King's Roll scheme?
    Mr. Brown: The King's Roll National Council meets at half-yearly intervals and the date of the next meeting will be fixed by the Honorary Secretary. The meetings of the local committees were temporarily suspended on the outbreak of war, but arrangements are being made for their resumption. The work of the King's Roll has, however, been carried on in the meantime in consultation as necessary with the chairmen of the local committees.

    INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFFICE.
    Mr. Hicksasked the Minister of Labour whether he has any statement to make regarding the co-operation of His Majesty's Government with the International Labour Organisation having regard to the outbreak of war, and with particular reference to the budget of the organisation for 1940?
    Mr. E. Brown: Yes, Sir. As has been stated by representatives of His Majesty's Government at meetings of the governing body of the International Labour Office on more than one occasion in the past year, the Government fully approve the decision reached by the governing body at its meeting in February, 1939, that, in the event of war, it should attempt to function as completely and efficiently as possible. Since the outbreak of war, there have been two meetings of the Emergency Committee of the

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    governing body and a representative of the Government has travelled to Geneva to attend each of them. He has had the opportunity of reaffirming at those meetings the Government's intention of cooperating to the fullest extent possible in present circumstances with the organisation. There is being held at present in Havana the second regional conference of the American States members of the organisation and the Government's support of the organisation has been further demonstrated by the attendance of an observer at this conference. It follows, from what I have said, that, in the view of His Majesty's Government, it is important that funds should be available to enable the work of the organisation to continue on as effective a basis as possible, and it is their hope that all States members, as they themselves, will be prepared to do their part in this respect. The representative of His Majesty's Government on the fourth committee, which is meeting early in December to discuss the League budget, as a whole, including that of the I.L.O., will be instructed to bear in mind the importance of such considerations, with a view to overcoming such difficulties as may arise in the course of the coming year.

    EMPLOYMENT (GREENOCK).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Minister of Labour what was the course of employment in the Greenock area by numbers, percentages and trades at the last available date; and the corresponding data of a year ago?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am having the desired information extracted, and will send it to the hon. Member.

  CIVIL DEFENCE.

    BILLETING.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Minister of Health whether he will reconsider the present scale of allowances in respect of children and helpers billeted upon householders in the reception areas, in view of the fact that the present scale does not cover the cost incurred by householders who, in many cases, have to make a greater financial sacrifice than they can afford?
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): I have given careful consideration to the present scale of billeting allowances, but I am afarid that I cannot accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that they are inadequate.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very heavy outlay which has been incurred in reception areas for clothes for children evacuated and whether in view of the financial sacrifices incurred by the hosts he will reconsider the scale payable by families of evacuees?
    Mr. Elliot: As to clothes, they, of course, remain the responsibility of the parents, and I very much hope that no expenses will be allowed to fall upon the hosts in respect of such things.

    EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE.
    Sir Percy Harrisasked the Minister of Health what salaries and allowances were paid by the Ministry of Health to house physicians and surgeons appointed to hospitals organised for war-time service on the outbreak of war; how this compared with rates of pay in voluntary hospitals; and whether there has been any alteration of these salaries and allowances since the beginning of the war?
    Mr. Elliot: The basis of employment in the Emergency Medical Service of house officers was at the outset £350 per annum, normally on a three months' contract, plus board and lodgings or an allowance in lieu. This flat rate was somewhat in excess of the rates paid by voluntary hospitals, though these vary widely according to the type of hospital. This arrangement has now been reviewed and it has been agreed with the advisory committee, with which I have recently been in consultation, that no further individual enrolments of house officers in the Emergency Medical Service should be made, but that hospitals should receive a payment equivalent to £200 per annum for each of their house officers who are required for whole-time work under the emergency hospital scheme. The precise allocation of this payment however will be a matter for the hospital authorities.
    Sir P. Harris: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he is doing nothing to undermine the great London voluntary hospitals?
    Mr. Elliot: Certainly, We are working in the closest possible consultation with the voluntary hospitals.
    Mr. de Rothschildasked the Minister of Health what authority was constituted to initiate and work out the present scheme of war-time hospital organisation; and whether the hospitals were asked to give their own views as to how each could best contribute to the building up of such an organisation?
    Mr. Elliot: The war-time hospital problem was examined in the first place by a committee of distinguished medical men and of others representing the hospitals, under the chairmanship of Sir Charles Wilson. Making full use of this committee's advice, the present scheme has been worked out by my Department under the authority of Section 50 of the Civil Defence Act, 1939. My Department has, of course, had frequent consultations, both formal and informal, with the hospital authorities. Indeed, the views of the hospital authorities as to how each could best contribute to the building up of the war-time organisation have throughout been most fully taken into account.
    Mr. de Rothschild: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a feeling among the directors and managers that they ought to have been taken into consultation?
    Mr. Elliot: It is best to make representations to me. I have always done my best to meet any such cases. In fact I have specially arranged to meet those responsible for the administration of the hospitals.
    Mr. de Rothschildasked the Minister of Health what were the qualifications required of group officers appointed to take charge of the hospital sectors into which London and the home counties have been divided for the purpose of wartime organisation; and what are the responsibilities of these officers?
    Mr. Elliot: The group officers were appointed as representing the voluntary hospitals in the London sectors, on account not only of their professional distinction but also of their administrative experience at the teaching hospitals, in which were concentrated much of the personnel and equipment required for the
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    working of the sectors. Their professional qualifications appear in the list circulated with my reply to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) on 26th October. Their duties are, in general, to supervise the working of the emergency medical arrangements in their sectors and are explained in more detail in a memorandum, a copy of which I will send to the hon. Member.
    Mr. de Rothschild: Was the Central Emergency Committee set up by the voluntary hospitals consulted about the appointment?
    Mr. Elliot: After due consultation those officers were appointed by the hospitals themselves.
    Sir Ernest Graham-Little: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the selection was not made either by the medical committees or the governing bodies of the hospitals; and will he take what measures he can to modify the selection thus made?
    Mr. de Rothschildasked the Minister of Health how many council and municipal hospitals in the area covered by London and the Home Counties have received additional staff and equipment in connection with the war-time organisation scheme; what percentage this represents of the total number of these hospitals; how many voluntary hospitals in the same area have been similarly prepared; what percentage this represents of the total number; and how many voluntary hospitals in this area have suffered a diminution of staff and equipment since the beginning of the war?
    Mr. Elliot: I am afraid that I am not in a position to give precise figures in reply to the hon. Member's question without obtaining a special return from the group officer in each sector of the London region, and I am reluctant to ask for this at the present time. I can say generally, however, that the hospitals in the London region which have been increased in staff and equipment under the Emergency Hospital Scheme are mainly municipal, because such hospitals have necessarily to be sought in the outer part of the region, where there are comparatively few voluntary hospitals capable of expansion. I believe that all those voluntary hospitals in the outer area that

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    are capable of satisfactory expansion have been expanded. As regards the diminution of staff and equipment, the majority of hospitals inside the County of London, whether voluntary or municipal, have been reduced.
    Mr. Isaacsasked the Minister of Health whether he is satisfied that the equipment and organisation of the sector hospitals are adequate for the numbers of patients they are prepared to receive?
    Mr. Elliot: I am satisfied that the majority of the sector hospitals are adequately provided for the number of patients which they are intended to receive, but in several of them the equipment and organisation need further improvement. I am making all possible use of the present period of quiescence to this end.
    Sir E. Graham-Littleasked the Minister of Health whether he has been able to arrange more equitable conditions for members of the honorary medical staffs of the voluntary hospitals who have enrolled for whole-time service and who wish to transfer to part-time service and upon what terms; and whether, in view of the urgent necessity of providing teachers for the medical students now returning to London schools in progressively increasing numbers, he will facilitate the transfer of members of the voluntary staffs to the new and more equitable scheme, notwithstanding any agreements which they may hitherto have accepted?
    Mr. Elliot: Yes, Sir, the arrangements which I am announcing to-day in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Dr. Howitt) are designed to facilitate the transfer of consultants and specialists from whole-time to part-time service under the Emergency Hospital Scheme. They will be able to take advantage of these arrangements, notwithstanding that they may have accepted the part-time agreement hitherto in operation.
    Sir E. Graham-Little: Is my right hon. Friend aware that last year there were over 10,000,000 attendances in the outpatients department of the hospitals and that all this service is now in abeyance, causing very great dislocation in the London area; and would my right hon. Friend
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    not only make a note of that fact but keep in mind the necessity of getting teachers for the medical students?
    Mr. Elliot: I will certainly bear that point in mind. I would be unwilling to accept the suggestion that the out-patient services have been in abeyance for London hospitals for 10 weeks, because it is quite at variance with information supplied to me by London hospitals.
    Sir E. Graham-Little: Does my right hon. Friend realise the suffering such dislocation causes, and that it is impossible to conduct satisfactorily out-patient departments without the honorary staff, who cannot be properly replaced by junior and inexperienced officers?
    Mr. Elliot: The higher the medical skill which can be obtained by the outpatients' departments the better, but to suggest that the service is entirely in abeyance is not only going beyond the facts but discourages people from applying, which is undesirable.
    Dr. Howittasked the Minister of Health whether he is now in a position to state what action he proposes to take with regard to the proposals made to him by the representative committee of the medical profession about conditions of service in the Emergency Medical Service; and whether he anticipates that specialists will now resume their work for the civil population at the general hospitals?
    Mr. Elliot: I am glad to be able to announce that I have agreed with the committee in question upon a scheme which will enable specialists at present employed whole-time in the Emergency Medical Service to engage in other work, whether at general hospitals or in private practice. Under the scheme there will be attached to certain hospitals part-time specialists and consultants at a salary of £500 a year, which will cover not only the part-time work required at present but also any additional work appropriate to their grade that may be required by the circumstances. In other words, this salary will cover present conditions and also air attack conditions. My agreement with the committee also secures that the arrangements for providing medical services of all kinds for casualties shall be adapted to the varying types of hospitals, so that there may be the minimum interference with the ordinary medical work of the hospitals.
    Dr. Howitt: Would my right hon. Friend make arrangements for an adequate return of nurses and hospital almoners to carry out the work of the hospitals?
    Mr. Elliot: I trust that, as the work of the central hospitals extends, it will be possible to secure the return of adequate staff.

    LICENSED PREMISES (EXTERNAL LIGHTING).
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in respect of licensed houses, he will consider permitting the use of a small blue 5-watt lamp suspended either outside or just inside every door used by the public as an entrance or exit to the premises, in view of the difficulty which is experienced by the public in both entering and leaving licensed premises?
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): No, Sir. If such a form of external lighting were allowed in respect of licensed premises it could not reasonably be withheld in the case of shops and other similar premises; and the amount of light resulting from any such concession would, in the aggregate, be such as to defeat the objects of the present restrictions on street-lighting.
    Mr. De la Bère: Will the right hon. Gentleman give this matter a little further thought, because a little light would be so much appreciated as a concession in every district throughout the country? Perhaps he will give it his sympathetic thought.
    Mr. Poole: May I ask whether the Minister has any knowledge of any difficulty which the hon. Member may have had?

    AIR-RAID WARNINGS.
    Mr. David M. Adamsasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that false air-raid warnings are becoming frequent through faulty wires and short-circuiting; and whether he will consider the advisability of other means of warning, other than electricity, so as to prevent such an occurrence which took place at 3 a.m. on the 15th instant at Poplar, causing women and young children to leave their beds to rush out into the darkness and rain to obtain shelter?
    Sir J. Anderson: I am aware that electrical faults have given rise to a number of false air-raid warnings, but I hope that the periodical tests which are now to be arranged will make these much less frequent.
    Mr. Thorne: Who was responsible for giving the warning to this House the other day?
    Sir J. Anderson: Not I.

    AIR-RAID WARDEN (DISMISSAL).
    Mr. Rileyasked the Home Secretary whether he has now made inquiries into the summary dismissal of Charles Fowler, of Liversedge, Spen Valley, from his post of air warden on the ground that he had written a letter to the local newspaper criticising the air-raid precautions administration; and whether he can make any statement on the matter?
    Sir J. Anderson: The dismissal of a member of the public air-raid precautions services is a matter for the local authority concerned, in which I have no jurisdiction to intervene. I have, however, made inquiries into this particular case and am satisfied that the person concerned was dismissed for reasons other than those which have been suggested to the hon. Member. I have already communicated the result of my inquiries to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Riley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the official note of dismissal there is a paragraph intimating that dismissed persons might at a future date apply for reinstatement, and that this paragraph was erased from this particular note, and why was it erased?
    Sir J. Anderson: It was, perhaps, very unfortunate that a form was used which had been prepared for general issue and that paragraph was struck out. The reason was that it was considered inappropriate, in view of the fact that that dismissal and that of a number of others were the result of a special review, as the House knows, with the object of bringing the paid staff down to the minimum absolutely necessary.

    AIR-RAID SHELTERS.
    Sir Irving Alberyasked the Home Secretary whether local authorities have power to make suitable arrangements for the accommodation of nearby residents in

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    free Anderson shelters in cases where, owing to evacuation and other causes, such surplus accommodation is available?
    Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir. Local authorities may in such cases give a direction under Regulation 23 of the Defence Regulations which will have the effect of making the surplus accommodation available to shelter persons not belonging to the household.
    Sir I. Albery: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that that is brought to their notice?
    Sir J. Anderson: It was brought to their notice in a recent circular.

    MOTOR-CAR HEAD-LAMPS.
    Mr. Saltasked the Home Secretary whether, when considering the danger of the present practice which permits motorists to use either the near or off-side head-lamp, he will permit the use of both simultaneously provided the new regulation masks have been fitted?
    Sir J. Anderson: I have no reason to suppose that any danger will arise from the option permitted to motorists to use the new head-lamp mask on either the near-side or the off-side lamp. The masked head-lamp should be invisible to oncoming traffic, and the position of the car will be indicated by the side-lights. The use of both head-lights simultaneously would increase the amount of light on the road surface to a degree which could not be permitted in present circumstances.
    Mr. Salt: Does not my right hon. Friend consider that the concession asked for in my question would reduce the dangers now experienced from road accidents, and that the benefits would exceed the risks that might be incurred? Is he not aware that when the near-side headlight only is used it may be confused with the off-side light, especially as motorists are likely to drive close to the white line, and that this danger is even greater where heavy vehicles are concerned?
    Sir J. Anderson: These matters are constantly the subject of experiment, and I am guided by the best advice I can obtain.

    CYCLE REAR LIGHTS.
    Brigadier-General Spearsasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that
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    cyclists are frequently entirely invisible in the black-out owing to the fact that their rear lights are covered by their coats; and whether he will make an Order that rear lights on cycles must be fixed so low that they cannot be so obscured?
    Sir J. Anderson: Under the Lighting Order it is already an offence for a cyclist to ride with his rear light obscured from view. I have no doubt that cyclists are fully alive to the necessity of seeing that the rear light is not obscured, and I do not think it is necessary to prescribe the height at which the light should be fixed.

    WAREHOUSES, GLASGOW (LIGHTING RESTRICTIONS).
    Mr. McGovernasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a considerable number of large warehouses in Glasgow require to close down about 4.15 p.m., due to lighting restrictions; that a number of these establishments find it impossible to black-out their premises during the black-out hours and give them proper use of natural light during the day; and whether he can see his way, in view of Christmas shopping pressure, to allow relaxation of lighting restrictions up to 5 p.m.?
    Sir J. Anderson: The Lighting (Restrictions) Order has recently been modified so as to provide that the black-out shall not come into force until half an hour after sunset. I should not, however, be justified in making any further concession in respect of particular classes of premises as suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. McGovern: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that 4.15 p.m. as the hour for the closing of many of these warehouses is having a very bad effect, especially on the Christmas trade, and cannot he grant a relaxation up to 5 p.m. until the Christmas trade is over?
    Sir J. Anderson: Considerations of safety are just as important at Christmas time as at any other time.
    Mr. McGovern: There is no danger yet.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps early in the next Session of Parliament to secure medical benefit under the National

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  Health Insurance Acts on a non-contributory basis to all dependants of men in the Service Forces?
  Mr. Elliot: The scheme of National Health Insurance is on a contributory basis and I could not undertake the inclusion in the scheme of a new statutory benefit for which no provision was made in the contributions.
  Mr. Gibson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very grave concern which is felt in Scotland and in England that these dependants should have to apply for poor relief in order to secure medical services?
  Mr. Burke: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the allowance which is paid to meet the probable charges of the dependants of these serving men is very much too small?
  Mr. Elliot: If it is a question of rates of contribution under the National Health Insurance scheme, it is a very big business.

  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (TEMPORARY STAFF).
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the volume of unemployment among competent clerical workers and shorthand typists, he will arrange that the temporary staff employed in his Department are appointed on the basis of qualification rather than marriage or other relationship with members of the higher permanent officers; and whether he proposes to take any action in regard to the employment of a governess, a saleswoman, and of daughters and nieces and wives of high permanent officers in his Department?
  The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): The basis of qualification for temporary employment in the Ministry of Pensions is ability to perform the work required to be done. I am satisfied that in no instance has this basis been departed from. From searching inquiries I have made personally, I am also satisfied that in the few instances where relatives of permanent officials have been engaged, experience has proved that their qualifications are fully adequate to fill the posts to which they have been appointed.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Is the Minister aware that the facts in question are not in dispute, and will he indicate that in the future such appointments made on the basis of personal relationship will not take place; and, further, will he keep in mind that there are a large number of qualified clerical workers unemployed who are eligible for work of this kind?
  Sir W. Womersley: We have engaged over 400 temporary staff. The numbers of those who are related to any officers of the staff are very small indeed. I have given instructions that any new appointments should come before me before being made, but I would like to know from the hon. Gentleman should the relationship of a person to anybody else disqualify that person from working?
  Mr. Ammon: Does the Minister suggest that there are not now unemployed competent persons who can do this work better than those who are employed?
  Sir W. Womersley: These persons are fully qualified to perform their duties.
  Mr. Levy: May I ask whether it would not be grossly unfair—
  Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. McEnteeasked the Minister of Pensions the age and length of service of the daughter of the deputy-secretary of the Ministry who has been appointed to an executive post; what special qualifications she possesses; whether any increase of pay has been given to her since her appointment; if so, how long after the date of her initial appointment; whether her duties require her to act as personal secretary to her father; and whether it was necessary to transfer an established civil servant from this post in order to accommodate this lady?
  Sir W. Womersley: The officer in question is aged 28 years and was appointed on 2nd September, 1939; by education and secretarial experience she was fully qualified for the duties of the post she fills. This is a temporary appointment and, in accordance with the usual custom, she commenced at the minimum salary for her grade. On the satisfactory completion of a month's probation, she was, in accordance with the common practice, graded for pay commensurate with the duties she was performing. Her duties require her to act as personal secre-

  1387
  tary to her father, and my personal investigation reveals that she is carrying out exactly the same duties as her predecessors. As regards the last paragraph in the hon. Member's question, there was no transfer of any established officer to create this vacancy. Her immediate predecessor vacated the post on being selected in the ordinary course for promotion to the rank of a higher executive officer. This carried an increase of salary from £418 per annum to £500, rising to £650. The lady in question is receiving a salary of £200.
  Mr. McEntee: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware of the very grave dissatisfaction that exists in regard to promotions of this kind, whether the statement that he has just given is not a proof that the whole thing is wrong, whether he will take steps to alter this and to make promotions by merit and by service and not by personal relationships to people in power?
  Sir W. Womersley: This is not a promotion. This is a purely temporary appointment and will be terminated as soon as circumstances warrant a reduction in staff. We are in this difficult position at the Ministry that in the wide expansion of our work we want all the permanent people we have on the staff to take higher executive posts and for supervising, and, as I said earlier, we have engaged 400 additional staff of a temporary nature. This lady in question is not on the established staff.
  Mr. Shinwell: What would the right hon. Gentleman have said if the Labour Government—
  Mr. Speaker: We cannot take all the morning on one question.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  Mr. Frankelasked the Minister of Pensions whether the concessions recently announced with respect to allowances for the children of men in the armed Forces are to be applied to the personal injuries scheme and the Royal Warrant?
  Sir W. Womersley: I am glad to be able to announce that it has now been decided to remove the limits at present placed on the number of children in
  1388
  respect of whom disablement pensioners may receive additional allowances, and these will now be paid in respect of all eligible children. The rate of allowance for each additional child so included will be that hitherto authorised for the last eligible child without reduction on account of the increased number. The necessary amendments will be made at a convenient date in the published Royal Warrant, Orders-in-Council and other instruments affecting the fighting Forces, and in the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme, but the increases will, of course, take effect at once.
  Mr. Frankel: In that case will the right hon. Gentleman present a new scheme to Parliament?
  Sir W. Womersley: I have already answered that, but I shall have to make alterations at a convenient date in the warrants and other instruments so that the increases will commence forthwith.

  PRESS AND CENSORSHIP BUREAU.
  Mr. Manderasked the Home Secretary what function the news department of the Press and Censorship Bureau performs, other than the distribution of prepared information handed to it by other Government Departments; and whether, in those circumstances, it is necessary to employ a staff of 20 persons at a cost of approximately £10,000 a year?
  Sir J. Anderson: The organisation and staffing of the Press and Censorship Bureau, of which the News Division is part, have recently been investigated on my behalf, and I am now considering the full report which I have received. In the meantime I may say that, apart from the distribution of information supplied by other Government Departments, the News Division acts as a link between the Press and Government Departments, and as a clearing house for newspaper inquiries, the volume of which is very great. It must be remembered that the staff of this division is so organised as to cover 24 hours a day for seven days a week.
  Mr. Mander: Does the Department in fact do anything more in practice than pass on information from one place to another without exercising any critical faculty?
  Sir J. Anderson: It certainly does more than that.
  Mr. Vernon Bartlett: May I ask whether this is the only Department in the Ministry which is staffed by journalists and whether, if they are not considered to be doing useful work, they can be transferred to another Department where their technical knowledge can be used?
  Sir J. Anderson: I have already said that the full report is having my consideration.

  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
  Mr. Whiteleyasked the Home Secretary whether he has considered communications from the Trades Union Congress General Council and the Miners' Federation, respecting increases in workmen's compensation; and whether the Government intend dealing with the matter?
  Mr. Dunnasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the increased cost of living arising out of the war emergency, and the inadequate financial provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925, he proposes at an early date to amend the legislation on workmen's compensation?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am not at present in a position to add to the reply given on 21st November to a question by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Cape).

  ASSAULT ON WARDER.
  Mr. Radfordasked the Home Secretary for what reason has he refused to confirm the decision of the visiting justices of Walton Gaol, Liverpool, that a prisoner who had assaulted a warder should receive 12 strokes of the cat, particularly as this prisoner has been guilty of similar assaults on three previous occasions?
  Sir J. Anderson: This case has been mentioned in a local newspaper as though it were a recent event, but, in fact, it occurred on 15th August last. I find that the question of confirming the award of the visiting justices was carefully considered, but in view of elements of doubt about some of the circumstances of the case, it was decided that it would be right for the offence to be dealt with by a form of punishment other than corporal punishment.
  Mr. Radford: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this man had been guilty of three previous assaults on warders, and does he not feel that by his decision he has refused that protection to warders to which they are entitled in discharging their difficult duties?
  Sir J. Anderson: It is quite impossible for me to go into all the details in reply to the question, but I can assure my hon. Friend that it is quite clear from the record that my predecessor's decision last August was based on special circumstances peculiar to the individual case.

  DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
  Mr. Radfordasked the Home Secretary whether he has any statement to make with regard to the mutinous conduct on the part of prisoners in certain of His Majesty's prisons; and what steps he is taking to restore discipline?
  Sir J. Anderson: On the outbreak of war steps were taken to reduce to a minimum the population of the prisons in the more vulnerable areas, especially in London. For this purpose, prisoners were transferred from the prisons in the big towns to other prisons; and, in order to find the necessary space for these emergency transfers, a certain number of prisoners who were nearing the end of their sentences were released. Some of the prisoners transferred have resented their removal to places at a distance from their homes, where it is less easy for them to receive visits from friends or relatives, and have regarded it as a grievance that, while some of their fellow prisoners had their sentences shortened, they themselves have received no similar benefit. As a result, there has been trouble in some of the provincial prisons, and a certain number of prisoners have sought to demonstrate their resentment by shouting in a disorderly fashion, and sometimes by breaking cell windows and smashing cell equipment. Appropriate disciplinary measures have been and are being taken against those who have been guilty of disorderly and insubordinate conduct. The emergency arrangements which had to be made on the outbreak of war threw a considerable strain on the prison staffs, and a word of commendation is, I think, due to them. They are dealing with the present difficulties resolutely, steadily and prudently.
  Mr. Radford: Is it not a fact that a number of criminals have got the impression now that they can with impunity do anything they want to do, and are not such decisions as that of my right hon. Friend's predecessor, with regard to a prisoner who has assaulted warders four times, simply typical of the sort of encouragement that is being given to this sort of insubordination?
  Sir J. Anderson: I think I ought to say that many of the reports which have appeared in the Press with regard to disturbances in prisons have been grossly exaggerated. If we are to succeed—as I am sure we shall—in restoring nonnal conditions in a short space of time, I suggest, it is most undesirable that undue prominence should be given to these matters.
  Mr. Radford: Is it not desirable that due punishment should follow?

  INTERNATIONAL RECONSTRUCTION.
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability, in connection with international reconstruction after the war, of giving careful consideration to the possibility of inclusion within the British Commonwealth of Nations of other States desirous of being associated therewith on mutually agreeable terms?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom see no advantage in considering the possibility suggested by the hon. Member unless and until it arises in a practical form.
  Mr. Mander: Would it not be to the great advantage of the peace of the world if other States who desire to join this British Commonwealth of Nations could do so, and will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough not to rule this out?

  GERMAN PRISONERS OF WAR.
  Sir Smedley Crookeasked the Prime Minister whether, when dealing with suggested reprisals against the Germans by way of punishment for the indiscriminate laying of mines causing destruction to British and neutral shipping, with consequent loss of innocent
  1392
  lives, he will consider the advisability of putting German prisoners of war, under guard, on British ships as a deterrent to their illegal marine policy?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. Such action would be contrary to the convention governing the treatment of prisoners of war, to which His Majesty's Government are a party and which they will continue to observe.

  AGRICULTURE.

    CREDITS.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Government will now consider giving some increased credit facilities for agriculture, with a view to assisting the agriculturalists to increase the production of foodstuffs?
    Mr. Bartlettasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider taking steps to provide cheap credits for farmers and, in particular, to reduce the present high rate of interest for loans]from the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation?
    The Minister of Ariculture (Colonel Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith): As regards short-term credit, I would refer to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Sir P. Hurd) on 16th November. The position as regards long-term credit, and in particular the rate of interest on loans from the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, was discussed during the passage into law of the Agricultural Development Act, 1939, and I do not think that subsequent events would justify any modification in the views which I expressed on that occasion.
    Mr. De la Bére: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend not realise how vitally necessary it is—and, indeed, that it is the duty of the Government—to see that those farmers who have ploughed up their land under the Government's scheme should have sufficient credit to carry them over to the time when they are able to sell their new crops?
    Mr. T. Williams: Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman invited his War Executive Committee to ask the district committees what exactly is the position of those farmers who have been called upon to plough up their land?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: No, Sir, I did not ask them to perform that duty. It would be a very difficult duty for them.
    Mr. De la Bère: Would my right hon. and gallant Friend take some positive action now?
    Sir I. Alberyasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will make arrangements for short-term credits at low interest rates to be granted to farmers ploughing up old grassland in addition to the £2 an acre grant?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: Arrangements have been made to expedite the payment of the £2 per acre grant for ploughing up grassland and provision has also been made for county committees to enter into arrangements with contractors for the ploughing up of land, the charges being guaranteed by ear-marking the appropriate amount from the £2 per acre grant to which the farmers will be entitled when the work is completed. As regards credit generally, I have every reason to hope, as I have already stated, that, with the prospect of satisfactory markets and prices, additional credit for farmers will be forthcoming from the normal sources of supply.
    Sir I. Albery: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend feel sure that sufficient acreage of grassland will be ploughed up without this additional assistance?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: Yes, I think so.

    WASTE FOOD.
    Sir P. Harrisasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the shortage of feeding-stuffs, he will take action to encourage the collection in towns of food-waste and scraps for feeding pigs and poultry, and, with this end in view, endeavour to obtain the cooperation of householders as well as, for collection purposes, the services of boy scout and guide organisations as well as local authorities?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply is issuing a circular urging local authorities to arrange for the systematic collection and disposal of waste materials of all kinds, and I shall take all possible steps to support and supplement that appeal so far as it concerns waste food suitable for feeding to pigs and poultry.
    Sir P. Harris: Does the Minister realise that one of the difficulties is to obtain suitable metal containers? Would he see whether it is possible to obtain some substitute, so as to facilitate this most important work?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I will consult my right hon. Friend about it.

    HEIFER CALVES AND FAT COWS (SLAUGHTER).
    Mr. T. Williamsasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has considered the advisability of prohibiting the slaughter of cow calves during the war, and what decision was reached?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: Yes, Sir. This question is under close review, but it has been decided that present circumstances do not warrant any restriction or prohibition on the slaughter of heifer calves. It is hoped that the economic position of the milk industry will make it profitable for farmers to sell for rearing animals that are suitable for that purpose.
    Mr. Williams: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware of the grave possibility of farmers taking advantage of this opportunity to make ready money by selling their cow calves, and thereby endangering not only our future milk supplies, but our future beef supplies?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: Yes, Sir, we are watching that possibility, but if we prohibited all slaughter of such calves, it might well be that the meat supply would be endangered.
    Mr. Williamsasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any in formation concerning the abnormal slaughter of in-calf cows; and has any estimate been formed of what the effect of this will be in the future?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: The information in my possession indicates that sales for slaughter of fat cows during October were heavier than normal, though I have no information to show how far this increase could be attributed to slaughterings of in-calf cows. The increase was, no doubt, due to higher prices for fat-cows, caused by local and temporary shortages of imported meat. Larger supplies of imported meat are now available, and prices of fat cows have since fallen, with a consequent reduction in the number of such animals sold for slaughter.
    Mr. Williams: Is not the exact explanation that, while prices were fixed by the Food Minister for high-grade cattle, there was no sort of control of the price of in-calf cows, and hence the abnormal slaughter of that type?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: There was no control of prices of cattle.
    Mr. John Morgan: There is now, is there not?

    WOMEN'S LAND ARMY.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Agriculture the total annual cost under existing conditions of the administration of the Women's Land Army; and whether, since recruiting for this has now ceased, and with a view to economy, he will reorganise its administration on the basis of voluntary unpaid service?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: The estimated cost of headquarters administration under existing conditions is about £8,000 per annum and the estimated cost of the expenses of Women's Land Army committees is about £35,000 per annum. The director of the Women's Land Army and the chairmen and members of Women's Land Army committees are giving their services free. Moreover, clerical assistance in county committee offices, and in a number of cases office accommodation and typing assistance also, is being obtained free of cost. Although no further recruiting campaign for the Land Army is being conducted at present, it is necessary to prepare to meet demand for additional labour on the land next year, and enrolment therefore continues of volunteers who are willing to offer full time service, as and when required, and to work anywhere that employment offers. Volunteers are, however, being warned that they may have to wait some time before there is a demand for their services. It is essential to continue to provide now for an efficient organisation capable of preparing to deal with the needs of the future as well as those of the present. I see no reason, therefore, for reorganisSng the present administration, which is already receiving a great deal of voluntary assistance.
    Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend satisfied that the amount of work still to be done justifies this very heavy expenditure? Will he not take steps to find out whether some of these
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    offices can be filled by voluntary unpaid people, on the lines of the women's voluntary services?
    Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I am satisfied that the money is being well spent. We have a great mass of voluntary assistance.

  ENEMY ALIENS.

    APPEALS.
    Mr. Manderasked the Home Secretary the number of appeals that have been heard by the Home Office Advisory Committee on Aliens and the number of appeals which are now pending; to what extent these appeals are from the decisions of the tribunals; and whether the tribunals themselves are giving reconsideration to the cases of those to whom A and B certificates have been granted, and to what extent?
    Sir J. Anderson: Hitherto the advisory committees have been dealing with persons interned under Regulation 18E and with enemy aliens interned on the outbreak of war, and they have dealt with 92 such cases. As regards enemy aliens who have been interned after examination by the tribunals, it is not contemplated that as regards all or most of these cases a further examination by the advisory committee shall be undertaken; but, if representations are made to me by or on behalf of any alien so interned, such representations will be carefully considered, and I have arranged that any doubtful cases shall be referred to the advisory committees, so that I may have the benefit of a report from them. As regards the second part of the question, I have no information at present as to the number of cases in which tribunals may think it desirable to reconsider cases of persons whom they had not exempted from the special restrictions in the Aliens Order applicable to enemy aliens.
    Mr. Mander: Is it the case that no instructions have been given to the tribunal to re-hear cases of that kind?
    Sir J. Anderson: The tribunals were informed in a circular that it was open to them to reconsider any cases they have dealt with.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the right hon Gentleman aware that in the case of a very large number of people who have been given B certificates, if the tribunals

    1397
    desire to reconsider their cases, that cannot be done because many of the cases were dealt with before the Home Office issued the B certificate?
    Sir J. Anderson: I have sent the hon. Member a further letter explaining the exact circumstances.

    BRITISH-BORN WIVES.
    Miss Cazaletasked the Home Secretary what steps he is prepared to take to enable British-born women married to subjects of a State at war with His Majesty to regain their British nationality?
    Sir J. Anderson: I fully recognise the importance of this matter to many women whose loyalty to their country of birth is strong. Whereas in the last war naturalisation was granted only to women separated from their husbands, I do not propose to adopt the same restriction now, but will limit my discretion only to the extent that is necessary to avoid impairing measures of control which must be maintained in time of war over persons of enemy nationality. If a British-born woman is living with a German or Austrian husband whom it is necessary on security grounds to subject to the special restrictions applicable to enemy aliens it would not as a rule be right to naturalise the wife and therefore to relax the restrictions which are applicable to such a household; but many of the Germans and Austrians now here are in sympathy with this country in the struggle in which we are engaged, and arrangements have been made to exempt such persons from the special restrictions applicable to enemy aliens. In such cases no security measures would be impaired by naturalising a British-born wife. I have accordingly decided that any such woman may, as soon as her husband has been exempted from the special restrictions, apply for naturalisation and that arrangements shall be made to deal with such applications expeditiously.

    DEFENCE REGULATIONS (DETENTION, WANDSWORTH PRISON).
    Captain Ramsayasked the Home Secretary whether he will investigate the charges of Mr. G. E. Thomas, that, while detained at Wandsworth Prison, he was kept for 25 days in a cell lit only by artificial light; that his sheets were not changed for seven weeks; that his cell was
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    verminous; and that his complaint was disregarded?
    Sir J. Anderson: The windows on the lower floors of this prison are protected by sandbags, and consequently at such times of the day as prisoners are in their cells artificial light has to be used. This prisoner was—in accordance with practice —allowed out of his cell during the working hours. The records show that 18 days after his admission he applied for a change of sheets. It was not possible to comply with his request at once (the emergency arrangements made in September with regard to the prison population had thrown an extra strain on the prison laundry) but his request was granted as soon as possible. He made no complaint that his cell was verminous and no confirmation can be found of this suggestion. He sent several communications to me while he was in prison and in these communications he made no complaints about his treatment.
    Captain Ramsay: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware, as there are several witnesses to show, that these prisoners were kept in these ground floor basement cells with no light for three weeks and a 'few days preceding their appearance before the tribunal and thereafter placed in cells which had proper ventilation and daylight; and was this not likely to cause a breakdown in their morale; and will he assure the House that prisoners in future shall be given proper daylight all the time they are in prison?
    Sir J. Anderson: There is absolutely no foundation for that statement. I made careful inquiry. There were a large number of prisoners in the same position as this prisoner, and they had to be, in the circumstances prevailing, accommodated on that particular floor where all the cell windows were sandbagged. There was no ground whatever for suggesting that any attempt was made to single out these men for exceptionally hard treatment.
    Mr. Ammon: Is there any charge against the Home Office or any other Department?
    Captain Ramsay: Will my right hon. Friend consider whether he will be prepared to have an inquiry into—
    Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. McGovern: May I ask—
    Mr. Speaker: There are a large number of questions on the Order Paper.
    Mr. McGovern: Surely, as there are three questions here, it is cutting it very short.
    Captain Ramsayasked the Home Secretary for what reasons Mr. G. E. Thomas was detained in prison by an order signed by him under Regulation 18b of the Defence Regulations, 1939, from 1st September to 27th October; and for what reasons he was released?
    Sir J. Anderson: On the outbreak of war my predecessor in office made an Order under the Defence Regulations for this man's detention on security grounds. His case was investigated by the advisory committee, to whom he had made objections: and, having reviewed the case in the light of the committee's report, I decided that he might be released subject to certain restrictions. The detention order was, therefore, revoked, and a restriction order substituted.
    Captain Ramsay: Having personal evidence only yesterday of the methods whereby people in responsible positions may be supplied with bogus information purporting to be evidence, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether the evidence against this man was taken on hearsay or whether there were witnesses when the tribunal was hearing the case, and was the man allowed to call any witnesses in his defence?
    Sir J. Anderson: I cannot answer all these detailed questions without notice, but I considered very carefully the very long and detailed report of the advisory committee. I am satisfied that they went into the matter with very great care, and they came to the conclusion that the man might safely be released, subject to certain restrictions which they recommended, and I made an Order consequent on their recommendations.
    Captain Ramsay: Is it not permissible to ensure that witnesses be called in these cases?
    Sir J. Anderson: They may be.
    Captain Ramsayasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that after two appearances before the advisory committee investigating the cases of
    1400
    prisoners detained under Regulation 186 of the Defence Regulations, 1939, on 25th and 26th September, Mr. G. E. Thomas, on return to Wandsworth Prison, was on each occasion detained for five hours in an apartment measuring approximately four feet by three feet, permitting him just room to sit down or stand up, with a grill and light over his head; and for what purpose and for what reason Mr. Thomas was maltreated in this manner?
    Sir J. Anderson: When a person is brought back to a prison after being out of the prison for production before a court or for any other similar reason, it is the uniform practice that he: shall, before going to his cell, pass through the reception office so that any property he has with him may be checked and that the medical officer may see him. While prisoners are waiting to be seen by the medical officer they are accommodated in apartments such as are described in the question and are given papers and books to read. On one of the days in question there were 66 prisoners who had to be dealt with in accordance with this procedure, and it is possible that some of them were kept waiting for two or three hours. There was no differentiation between the treatment of this prisoner and of all other persons admitted to the prison.
    Captain Ramsay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are at least three other witnesses who are prepared to say that they were put into these small cells for over four hours, and that one man was kept in such a cell for six hours; and will he see that in future people are not confined in this kind of space because it may, especially in any cases of persons who suffer from claustrophobia, have a serious effect upon their health and morale?
    Sir J. Anderson: I think that that really is a matter for the medical officer of the prison. As I have explained, the circumstances were exceptional at the time, and 66 prisoners had to be seen by the medical officer, and undoubtedly mere may have been undue inconvenience.
    Mr. McGovern: Is it true that this man was confined in a space four feet by three feet for three hours?
    Mr. Dingle Foot: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that persons who are detained under regulations will be treated at least as well as

    1401
    remand prisoners if they have committed no crime, and that they will not in any case be treated as though they were convicted prisoners?
    Sir J. Anderson: At the prison in question there are, I think, 73 admittedly small compartments which are used for reception purposes. Of the 66 prisoners who had to be passed through this procedure on one of the days in question, more than 30 were remand prisoners, and it is tlie intention that persons dealt with under Regulation 186 should have treatment in all respects at least as favourable as that accorded to unconvicted persons?
    Mr. McGovern: As to the point I put about four feet by three feet, is that true, because if it is true, it is a damn scandal no matter whether he is Fascist or Communist?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must not make an observation of that character in this House.

    HOUSE-TO-HOUSE COLLECTIONS
    Mr. Craven-Ellisasked the Home Secretary when the regulations made under the House-to-House Collections Act will be published, in view of the fact that the Act comes into force on the 1st January?
    Sir J. Anderson: Draft regulations have been discussed with representatives of charitable organisations and I hope to make the regulations shortly. The time now available before 1st January is not, however, sufficient to enable police authorities to deal with applications and charities to make their arrangements; and I therefore propose to ask Parliament for powers under which the operation of the Act could be postponed for three months.

    SUMMER-TIME.
    Mr. Vyvyan Adamsasked the Home Secretary whether he will now undertake to restore summer-time to the public by 14th February, 1940, at the latest?
    Sir J. Anderson: I have promised to consider the desirability of fixing an earlier date that prescribed by statute, but I am unable to make any statement at present as to what that date shall be.
    Mr. Adams: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that on St. Valentine's Day the sun will set an hour later and rise five minutes earlier than on 19th November? Is there any reason under the sun why we should not be promised an earlier alleviation of the necessary but unpleasant black-out?
    Sir J. Anderson: I have promised early consideration.

    UNITY FOOTBALL POOLS.
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the promoters of Unity Football Pools are acting in contravention of Section 26 of the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934; and whether it is intended to introduce amending legislation to legalise actions of this nature?
    Sir J. Anderson: I have no authority to decide a question of law, which can only be determined by a competent court, but I would refer the hon. Member to the case of Elderton v. United Kingdom Totalisator Company, Limited, which was decided by the Chancery Division of the High Court in 1935. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. Davies: In view of the fact that that decision may be subject to appeal, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter further?
    Sir J. Anderson: I think it is the law for the time being.

    FOREIGN BUSINESS MEN (PERMITS).
    Brigadier-General Spearsasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that commercial travellers and representatives of business firms coming to this country to transact business which can be done in a few hours, frequently have to waste anything up to a week before they can obtain an exit visa; and whether, in view of the importance of facilitating the trade of this country, he will consider making some special arrangement which will obviate these, delays to business people?
    Sir J. Anderson: I fully appreciate the inconvenience which may be caused to foreign visitors by the precautions required on security grounds in time of war,

    1403
    and I am anxious that such inconvenience shall be reduced to a minimum. I am considering what arrangements can be made to ensure the more expeditious issue of permits to foreign business men who come to this country for short visits.
    Brigadier-General Spears: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that these people sometimes have to spend many days here over business which might be done in a few hours?
    Sir J. Anderson: I realise the importance of doing everything possible to facilitate matters.

    ALIENS (EMPLOYMENT).
    Mr. David Grenfellasked the Home Secretary whether he is yet in a position to make a further statement with regard to the employment of aliens?
    Sir J. Anderson: As the answer is long, I will, with permission, circulate it.
    Mr. Grenfell: Am I right in anticipating that the answer, when it appears, will contain all material information on this point?
    Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir. It is a fully detailed answer.
    Following is the answer:
    Yes, Sir. As I have already indicated, His Majesty's Government desires to utilise the services of friendly aliens in any direction in which they can be advantageously employed without prejudice to the interests of British nationals. To this end I have made an Order under the Aliens Order under which aliens who arrived in this country before 3rd September last, and whose stay is subject to conditions, may take employment in Great Britain. They will only be able to do so, however, if permission is granted by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service. The permission will be given by means of an endorsement on the alien's certificate of registration for a specific employment and it will be a requirement that any subsequent change of employment must be approved by the Minister in the same way. This scheme will apply to Germans and Austrians who have been exempted by a tribunal from the restrictions applicable
    1404
    to enemy aliens in the same way as it applies to other aliens. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service informs me that in considering whether permission should be granted in any case full regard will be had to the views of trade unions or similar organisations.
    While it is not to be expected that the present moment opportunities for employment will be available for any large number of aliens covered by the Order, the services of certain classes of alien workers possessing high technical skill may be found immediately useful. Instructions to the local offices of the Ministry of Labour and National Service contain specific directions that local officers should not submit an alien for a vacancy unless they are satisfied that no suitable British worker is available. As a measure of security the Order also requires that an alien shall not without special permit take employment in a prohibited place within the meaning of the Official Secrets Act, 1911, as subsequently amended, or a protected place within the meaning of Regulation 12 of the Defence Regulations, or in any of the auxiliary war services set out in a schedule to the Order.

    NEW ZEALAND EXPEDITIONARY FORCE.
    Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he has any information as to the despatch of an expeditionary force from New Zealand overseas?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I have seen the statement issued by the New Zealand Prime Minister that the first Echelon of the New Zealand Military Force for service overseas, which has already undergone intensive training in New Zealand, will embark after completing its training in the Dominion as and when transport is available, and that steps are being taken to call up personnel of a second body. I am sure that I shall be voicing the sentiments of all Members of the House in saying how much we appreciate this further proof of the determination of New Zealand to do all in her power to bring to a successful issue the cause in which we are engaged.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Amendments to—
Official Secrets Bill [Lords,] without Amendment.

PUBLIC PETITIONS.
Third Report from the Committee on Public Petitions brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

ROYAL ASSENT.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went; and, having returned—
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

1. Restriction of Advertisement (WarRisks Insurance) Act, 1939.

2. Official Secrets Act, 1939.

HIS MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
Mr. Speaker(standing in the Clerk's place at the Table:) I have to acquaint the House that the House has been to the House of Peers, where a Commission under the Great Seal was read. The LORD CHANCELLOR, being one of the Lords Commissioners, delivered His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament, in pursuance of His Majesty's Command, as followeth:
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
The shadow of war has once more fallen over Europe.
Despite the efforts of My Government to preserve peace, Germany, in violation of her solemn undertakings, wantonly invaded Poland. This neiv instance of German aggression and bad faith was a challenge which we could not have declined without dishonour to ourselves and without peril to the cause of freedom and the progress of mankind.
We seek no material gain. Liberty and free institutions are our birthright which we, like our forefathers, are resolved to preserve.
Members of the House of Commons:
I thank you for your ready acceptance of the heavy financial burdens rendered necessary as a contribution
1454
towards meeting the severe expense of war. So prompt and ungrudging a response has deeply impressed the world and demonstrates the unflinching determination of My people to make every sacrifice necessary for victory.
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
The issue is clear. With united will My peoples here and overseas have dedicated themselves to the struggle. The spontaneous decision of My Dominions to participate in the conflict and the invaluable help which they are giving, and are about to give, to the common cause have been of the greatest encouragement to Me. With the aid of our faithful French and Polish allies we cannot doubt that our cause will prevail.
I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours.
Then a Commission for Proroguing the Parliament was read in the House of Lords.
After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons; By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name and in obedience to His Majesty's Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday, the twenty-eighth day of November, one thousand nine hundred and thirty-nine, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued until Tuesday, the twenty-eighth day of November, one thousand nine hundred and thirty-nine.
End of the Fourth Session (opened 8th November, 1938) of the Thirty-Seventh Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in the Third year of the Reign of His Majesty King George the Sixth.

TRANSPORT.
  RAILWAY WAGONS (COLLIERIES).
  RAILWAY WAGONS (COLLIERIES).
  LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (LADIES' COMPARTMENTS).
  LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (LADIES' COMPARTMENTS).
  ROAD FACILITIES.
  ROAD FACILITIES.
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  TUNIS DATES.
  TUNIS DATES.
  MILK.
  MILK.
  BUTTER AND BACON (RATIONING).
  BUTTER AND BACON (RATIONING).
  MEAT.
  MEAT.
  RATION BOOKS (COUNTERFOILS)
  RATION BOOKS (COUNTERFOILS)
  FAT CATTLE.
  FAT CATTLE.
  FEEDING-STUFFS.
  FEEDING-STUFFS.
  LIVESTOCK (SLAUGHTERING).
  LIVESTOCK (SLAUGHTERING).
  BACON-CURING ESTABLISHMENTS.
  BACON-CURING ESTABLISHMENTS.
  FEMALE STAFF, NORTH-EAST SCOTLAND.
  FEMALE STAFF, NORTH-EAST SCOTLAND.
  TEA.
  TEA.
  WORKERS IN HEAVY INDUSTRIES.
  WORKERS IN HEAVY INDUSTRIES.
  CHESHIRE AND LANCASHIRE CHEESE.
  CHESHIRE AND LANCASHIRE CHEESE.
CIVIL DEFENCE.
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS (ROCHDALE).
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS (ROCHDALE).
  SHOPS (CLOSING HOURS).
  SHOPS (CLOSING HOURS).
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS PERSONNEL (OXFORD).
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS PERSONNEL (OXFORD).
  WARDENS' POSTS.
  WARDENS' POSTS.
  EVACUATION.
  EVACUATION.
  CAMPS.
  CAMPS.
  EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE.
  EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE.
  MARIE RILEY (SOLIHULL).
  MARIE RILEY (SOLIHULL).
  "AUSTRIAN INFORMATION."
  "AUSTRIAN INFORMATION."
  ENEMY ALIENS.
  ENEMY ALIENS.
EDUCATION.
  HULL.
  HULL.
MILITARY TRAINING.
  UNIVERSITY STUDENTS.
  UNIVERSITY STUDENTS.
  CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
  CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.
  OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS.
  OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS.
  TIMBER.
  TIMBER.
  BOFORS GUN MOUNTINGS.
  BOFORS GUN MOUNTINGS.
BRITISH ARMY.
  BILLETING CONDITIONS, MONTROSE.
  BILLETING CONDITIONS, MONTROSE.
  RENT.
  RENT.
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES.
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES.
  MAINTENANCE ORDERS.
  MAINTENANCE ORDERS.
  JEWS.
  JEWS.
  ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (MAINTENANCE).
  ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (MAINTENANCE).
  CORRESPONDENCE FOR TROOPS ABROAD.
  CORRESPONDENCE FOR TROOPS ABROAD.
  SECOND-HAND MOTOR-CARS (PURCHASES).
  SECOND-HAND MOTOR-CARS (PURCHASES).
  EX-PRIVATE G. H. SANDS, DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY.
  EX-PRIVATE G. H. SANDS, DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY.
  2ND ANTI-AIRCRAFT DIVISION, YORK (ACCOUNTS OFFICE).
  2ND ANTI-AIRCRAFT DIVISION, YORK (ACCOUNTS OFFICE).
  ENLISTMENT (POLISH NATIONALS).
  ENLISTMENT (POLISH NATIONALS).
  STEAMSHIP"SIMON BOLIVAR"(SINKING).
  STEAMSHIP"SIMON BOLIVAR"(SINKING).
NATIONAL FINANCE.
  MOTOR TAXATION.
  MOTOR TAXATION.
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  CZECH ASSETS.
  CZECH ASSETS.
  LANCASHIRE SITES COMPANY.
  LANCASHIRE SITES COMPANY.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  STAFFS.
  STAFFS.
  BILLETING.
  BILLETING.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  HERRING (EXPORTS TO RUSSIA).
  HERRING (EXPORTS TO RUSSIA).
  SPRATS (EXPORT).
  SPRATS (EXPORT).
  FRANCE (TRADE RELATIONS).
  FRANCE (TRADE RELATIONS).
  ELECTRIC TORCHES (BATTERIES).
  ELECTRIC TORCHES (BATTERIES).
  SPANISH ORANGES (IMPORTATION).
  SPANISH ORANGES (IMPORTATION).
  RESTRICTION OF ADVERTISEMENT (WAR RISKS INSURANCE) ACT.
  RESTRICTION OF ADVERTISEMENT (WAR RISKS INSURANCE) ACT.
  MINES ASHORE (BRITISH COAST).
  MINES ASHORE (BRITISH COAST).
  REFUGEES.
  REFUGEES.
  ALIENS.
  ALIENS.
  CRIME (METROPOLITAN POLICE DISTRICT).
  CRIME (METROPOLITAN POLICE DISTRICT).
  EVACUEES, DAGENHAM (PROPOSED FLAG DAY).
  EVACUEES, DAGENHAM (PROPOSED FLAG DAY).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  OPPORTUNITIES FOR SERVICE.
  OPPORTUNITIES FOR SERVICE.
  DOCK LABOURERS.
  DOCK LABOURERS.
  ASSISTANCE.
  ASSISTANCE.
  WOMEN CLERICAL WORKERS (FOOTBALL POOLS).
  WOMEN CLERICAL WORKERS (FOOTBALL POOLS).
  DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN.
  DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN.
  PROFESSIONAL MEN.
  PROFESSIONAL MEN.
  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION (FILM PUBLICITY DIVISION)
  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION (FILM PUBLICITY DIVISION)
  DEFENCE REGULATIONS (POLICE OFFICERS' VISIT, BARNSTAPLE).
  DEFENCE REGULATIONS (POLICE OFFICERS' VISIT, BARNSTAPLE).
SCOTLAND.
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS (MILITARY SERVICE).
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS (MILITARY SERVICE).
  MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1939.
  MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1939.
  EVACUEES.
  EVACUEES.
  POOR RELIEF (LOCAL EXPENDITURE).
  POOR RELIEF (LOCAL EXPENDITURE).
ECONOMIC WARFARE.
  WORK OF DEPARTMENT (STATEMENT).
  WORK OF DEPARTMENT (STATEMENT).
  GERMAN EXPORTS.
  GERMAN EXPORTS.
  BRITISH CONTRABAND CONTROL.
  BRITISH CONTRABAND CONTROL.
POST OFFICE.
  TRUNK AND TOLL CALLS.
  TRUNK AND TOLL CALLS.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, EDINBURGH.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, EDINBURGH.
  MAILS (SWITZERLAND).
  MAILS (SWITZERLAND).
  LAGOS AND PORTO NOVO (MAIL SERVICE).
  LAGOS AND PORTO NOVO (MAIL SERVICE).
  EX-AWUJALE OF IJEBU ODE.
  EX-AWUJALE OF IJEBU ODE.
  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING.
  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING.
  RATING AND VALUATION.
  RATING AND VALUATION.
  WATER SUPPLY, SUTTON.
  WATER SUPPLY, SUTTON.
  MATERNITY SERVICES.
  MATERNITY SERVICES.
  NURSES (UNEMPLOYMENT).
  NURSES (UNEMPLOYMENT).
  NATIONAL REGISTRATION.
  NATIONAL REGISTRATION.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (WOMEN MEDICAL OFFICERS).
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (WOMEN MEDICAL OFFICERS).
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
AGRICULTURE.
  DAMAGE BY RABBITS.
  DAMAGE BY RABBITS.
  LAND WORKERS (RUBBER BOOTS).
  LAND WORKERS (RUBBER BOOTS).
  GRASSLAND (PLOUGHING-UP).
  GRASSLAND (PLOUGHING-UP).
  SWINE FEVER, EASTERN COUNTIES.
  SWINE FEVER, EASTERN COUNTIES.
Preamble
The House met at twelve of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

OFFICIAL SECRETS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
[The references are to Bill No. 86.]
Page 2, line 4, leave out ("it appears to").
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Amendment, which I will ask your Lordships to agree to, is really very little more than a drafting Amendment. It is an Amendment which was moved by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, in your Lordships' House, who said when he moved it that it really was a very small point. When it was moved in another place it was thought that it might be accepted. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I am very glad that this Amendment, which I moved here, has now been accepted in another place, and perhaps I may be permitted to express a slight feeling of regret that it was not accepted in your Lordships' House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 2, line 5, after ("police") insert ("has reasonable grounds to believe").
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is part of the same Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BASQUE REFUGEE CHILDREN.
12.8 p.m.
LORD NEWTON LORD NEWTON asked His Majesty's Government how many Basque refugee children are still remaining here and whether any steps are being taken to repatriate them. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it will not be necessary for me to detain the House for more than a few minutes, because the circumstances are quite well known. It will be remembered that over two years ago a number of Basque children, amounting, I think, to over 4,000, were brought to this country in order to prevent their suffering from the results of bombardments and of warfare generally. The arrangement was made on the terms that this was to be only a temporary measure, that they should be retained here only as long as there was any danger, and that at the earliest opportunity they would be repatriated. An enterprise of this kind naturally represents considerable expenditure of money, and I understand that a sum of £165,000 has been spent upon these refugees, but I am not quite clear whether that amount includes the money which was subscribed by foreign countries. With regard to those subscriptions and assistance from foreign countries, I cannot help thinking myself that it was a great pity that assistance was accepted from Russia, because Soviet Russia does nothing unless it expects something in return. If there were rumours in this country that these children were occasionally exhibited as a sort of Communistic specimen and that any blame was attached to Russian action, I am quite sure that nobody has ever yet received anything but damage from associating with those people.
There was another form of criticism which was prevalent at the time when previous attempts were made to repatriate these children, and that was because prominent members of the Committee showed a rather strange reluctance to part with their charges. They rather gave us to understand that the children were much better off here and much happier, and altogether much better situated than if they were returned to their parents. The result was that

1881
nothing like the number of children have been repatriated who ought to have been repatriated, and their repatriation has new become more difficult. But the original reason for keeping these children here no longer exists. They were brought here to protect them from danger. There is far more danger from aeroplanes at this moment in this country than there is in Spain, where, as far as I know, there is none. It is very difficult to find an excuse for retaining these children, and the only reason I have come across why they should be retained is that they would be extremely useful as advisers in A.R.P. as they are particularly well qualified to deal with difficulties of that kind.
Personally I can see no reason whatever why these refugees should not be repatriated at the earliest opportunity if means could be found to convey them. There seem to be three overwhelming reasons why they should go. The first is that conditions now are totally different from what they were when they arrived, and there is no danger for them in Spain itself. The second reason, and a very important one, is that the Spanish Government have formally requested that they should be returned. I believe they have made such a request with the exception of children whose parents prefer that they should remain in England. The third reason, and it is a very strong one, is that before long we may be, and in all probability shall be, confronted with the difficulty of other refugees, and they may be refugees who are more worthy of consideration than these children now are. I hope I shall be told that preparations have been made for repatriating these children at the earliest possible moment.
12.12 p.m.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT: My Lords, I am glad my noble friend has raised this question, and I hope the Government will be able to give a satisfactory reply. The repatriation of these children is long overdue. I cannot help feeling that had the Government shown a little more firmness than they did in the early stages of this movement a great deal of trouble would have been spared. My noble friend has alluded to the amount of money that has been spent. If only that money could have been given to the sick and wounded on both sides in the late Civil War, it would have been far better spent.
1882
I do not believe there was ever any necessity for these children coming here at all. Personally I have been specially connected with a certain section of these children who were provided for in Catholic homes and convents in this country, and I should like to say that a word is due to those who have been looking after the children for the very great trouble and interest they have taken in them and the great personal inconvenience to which they have been put in looking after them. I am glad to say that nearly all these children have now been repatriated. I cannot recall exactly the number there were in this particular batch. I think it was something like 800, but they are now reduced to very few indeed. If only the Government could arrange speedily with the Spanish Embassy for the repatriation of the remainder of the Basque children and others to whom I am alluding, all would be well, but owing to the dilatory tactics which have been employed throughout on this question, they have, to use a common expression, "missed the 'bus." Had it been done before this war began, everything would have been done speedily, but now, owing to mines and other dangers, it has become more difficult. At the same time I hope the Government will come to a speedy arrangement with the Spanish Embassy and that every one of these children will be repatriated almost at once.
12.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, as a member of the Committee that organised the reception of these children about two and a half years ago, and as one who since that time has been responsible for their welfare in this country, I should like to say one or two words on this question. In the first place, although we should agree with most of what the noble Lord, Lord Newton, has said, I should like to dispel, if I may, one misconception. Our Committee have not received any money at any time from Russia. The money that has been subscribed to our funds has come from people in this country and from certain committees which were organised in different parts of the British Commonwealth. The various other countries who were helping refugee children and other refugees supported themselves and did not subscribe to our fund.

1883
As the noble Lord rightly pointed out, when the children were brought over here it was to save them from conditions of war in Spain. Since these conditions ceased to prevail, when the Civil War came to an end, my Committee were as anxious as any noble Lord opposite to return these children to their parents. We immediately began the process of repatriation. Four thousand children came over here two and a-half years ago, and since the end of the Civil War 3,000 have been repatriated. When the European war broke out this autumn, we were acutely conscious of the reasons advanced by both noble Lords opposite for speeding up the process of repatriation, and we have, in the last two months, sorted out 500 of the remaining 1,000 children who are in a position to return to their homes in Spain. The only possible reason for delay in returning these children is the difficulty of obtaining a ship, which the Spanish Government has been good enough to undertake to provide. If any of the noble Lords opposite would represent the urgency of the matter to the representatives of the Spanish Government in London it would certainly be a great service to us and to the children.
It was suggested by the noble Viscount, Lord FitzAlan, that we ought to send the whole of the remaining children back to Spain. The reason why we are for the time being, and for the time being only, keeping 500 children in this country is that at the moment they have no homes to go to. Their parents are, in some cases, refugees outside Spain, probably in the South of France. Sometimes both parents are in prison for political or other offences, sometimes we have had no information since the children came over about either of them, sometimes the father is in prison and the mother a refugee, or the father is in prison and the mother dead. In these cases the children have no families which they can join in Spain—no homes to go to—and if they were sent back immediately, there is a very considerable likelihood that they might be permanently separated from their parents who may never return to Spain.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT: Is it not a fact that General Franco has
1884
himself undertaken to look after any children who are repatriated whose parents, for the moment, cannot be found?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Our responsibility, which was accepted two and a half years ago when the offer was made by the Basque Government, was towards the Basque Government and towards the parents of the children. We are perfectly aware of the willingness of the Spanish Government to look after these children, but we do not want to do anything that would prevent them from ever being able to be reunited with their parents, and for that reason, in the case of parents who are not at the moment but probably will be later on in a position to provide homes for their children, we are asking the British public to continue to look after them for the time being. As I say, it only applies to a very limited class, and as time goes on we shall be hearing from more of the parents in that class and more of the remaining children will be repatriated. I should like to assure noble Lords that we are as anxious as any one to return the children to their parents, which I am sure they would agree with us is the thing that is most in the interest of the children themselves.
In conclusion, I should like to express our gratitude to all those people who have subscribed money towards the support of the children in the last two and a half years, and to say that while there are a few children remaining we should be immensely grateful to them for continuing to assist. The best form of assistance they can give is by taking the children, as they have done in the past, into their own homes and looking after them themselves. If more private individuals could do that it would tide over the time before the remaining children can return to their own parents. I should like also to express our thanks to the Government for the very friendly co-operation which they have shown from the time the children came over, and which alone has made possible whatever we have been able to do. Particularly I should like to express our thanks to the two Departments mainly concerned, the Home Office and the Foreign Office, and more particularly still to those officials in those two Departments with whom we have been in direct contact. We have received every civility and every consideration, and I believe that

1885
the Government are in entire sympathy with our attitude and are doing everything they can to help us to carry out the policy that I have explained to your Lordships this morning.
12.23 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA): My Lords, a great deal of water has flowed under the bridges and a great number of chickens have gone home to roost since I last addressed your Lordships on the subject of the Basque children. But it is difficult for me to make a very useful contribution to the debate this morning because the Front Bench speech has already been made by the noble Earl who has just spoken, and who has really given all the information which is available on this subject. Of the 4,000 children who came over at one time or another in the course of this humanitarian experiment, 3,000 have now gone back; and, as the noble Earl has said, arrangements have now been come to with the Children's Committee under the changed circumstances of war, and 500 more children are to be returned in the near future. Therefore at the very outside it only leaves us with 500 who remain to enjoy our hospitality. But I can assure the noble Lord, if he feels that even that is 500 too many, that the Government will press on naturally as best they can in co-operation with the Spanish Ambassador and with the Spanish Government to restore as many more of these children as possible to their own parents. I do not suppose for a moment that they can all go back to their parents; at least it is unlikely that at the end of a civil war that would be possible; but no doubt some more, at any rate, will be able to return, and the Government will certainly press on as expeditiously as possible with that object in view.

ROAD ACCIDENTS.
12.25 p.m.
LORD LAMINGTON LORD LAMINGTON had given Notice that he would ask that the publication of road accident statistics should give the number of non-fatal accidents as well as of fatal accidents. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the question standing in my name requires very few words from me by way of explanation. Your Lordships
1886
will remember that since the return of fatal accidents only has been made, about three and a half times the normal number of people have been killed on the roads compared with the number killed in other years. No one at the present time wants to add to the labours of Government Departments unnecessarily, and we all wish to avoid giving extra labour to those Departments, but no extra labour will be involved in making the return for which I now ask, because every motorist has to tell the police when he has had an accident of any description. The figures I ask for are already available in the Department, and it is simply a question of adding the nonfatal to the fatal accidents.
I do not ask for statistical information at the present time, because that no doubt would add to the work, but I think it is very important to have the number of non-fatal accidents reported. The result might be to lead to greater precautions being taken, and, therefore, to a sensible reduction in the number of accidents that take place. Based on the proportional return of previous years it may be assumed that during September and October there were 80,000 non-fatal accidents, and, taking the usual proportion of fatal to non-fatal accidents, that of those 80,000 there have been 18,000 persons seriously injured. The term "seriously injured" is large and all-embracing. It may mean injury for life for the unfortunate victim. I only wish to emphasize two points. The first is that the return I ask for will involve no extra labour in any Government Department or office, or very little extra labour, and that I ask for no statistical information. That may come later unless, as I hope, some other means will be taken, in the way, for instance, of a reduction of speed, to avoid the frightful number of casualties. Secondly, I say that it is very important, when you have 80,000 people injured in two months and when 18,000 of them probably will be very seriously injured, possibly for life, that we should have the information. Therefore I ask the question and hope that the return I ask for will be granted.
12.28 p.m.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, in answer to my noble friend I would inform him that on the outbreak of war the compilation of road accident statistics was

1887
discontinued in order to release police personnel and the Ministry of Transport staff for more urgent duties. It was also hoped that conditions in a state of war—for example, those brought about by the rationing of motor fuel, by the restriction of lighting both on vehicles and on the roads, and by possible enemy action—would be so different from those prevailing in normal times as to destroy the comparative value of the figures. In the middle of September the whole question was reconsidered in the light of the circumstances then existing, and arrangements were made for the monthly returns of road casualties to be reinstated. It was, however, decided to restrict the information to fatal accidents for three reasons—first, on grounds of economy, to keep the volume of work as small as possible and so save man power for other duties; secondly, to avoid the difficulties of possible discrepancies in reports by police forces whose personnel includes many men who have had no experience of this work; and thirdly, because it was considered that statistics as to persons killed would provide sufficient material on which to base any remedial measures which appear to be practicable. There would be no insuperable difficulty, of course, in reinstituting returns of nonfatal accidents, but in view of these considerations, particularly that of economy and saving of man power, I hope that my noble friend will not press his suggestion.

INTERNMENT OF ENEMY ALIENS.
12.31 p.m.
LORD NEWTON LORD NEWTON had the following question on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government if Dr. Dittmar, a German civilian resident in this country, who was interned on October 4 and examined by the Advisory Committee on November 13, is still detained, although the Advisory Committee recommended his exemption from internment, and although no charge of any kind has been brought against him.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I feel that I ought to apologise for again returning to this case, but as, unfortunately, I happen to know that it is typical of others, that must suffice as an explanation. It is a case which ought never to have occurred at all, and I bring it forward
1888
because, although I am absolutely satisfied that there is no official in this country who desires to be in any way in-humane or anything but considerate to this particular class of person, yet there is at least evidence of delay and of discrimination. That is why I feel bound to draw attention to it and shall continue to do so. The man in question, who is afraid to return to Germany because he is a strong anti-Nazi and would be put into a concentration camp if he returned, is an historical student. He came to me in connection with his work. That is how I became acquainted with him. This man on October 4 was brought before one of the one-man tribunals, and although I provided him with a letter stating that I would be prepared to undertake any guarantee, the magistrate never thought it worth while to send for me. I could have been in court in a quarter of an hour. The result was that the man was interned, and although he was interned on October 4 he did not succeed in getting his appeal heard until November 13.
On that day I gave evidence for him, and I was informed privately by the committee that there was nothing whatever against him and that he would undoubtedly be released in a very short time. Ten days have already elapsed and there is no sign of his being liberated. The Advisory Committee sit in a building which is within about a quarter of a mile of the Home Office and I should have thought that a telephone message occupying perhaps five minutes would have settled the whole affair. Perhaps my noble friend who is going to answer will have some satisfactory explanation to offer, but I cannot conceive what it is. Here is a case of a perfectly innocent man. It is admitted that he is innocent. I think the tribunal confirmed that opinion, and has so informed the Home Office. Thereupon the Home Office should liberate him. I believe that is the usual course, but it has not been done in this case. It seems to me absolutely without common sense. There is no sense in my opinion in interning civilians at all, unless there is some information against them and you know without doubt that they are hostile in sentiment and ready to act in a hostile way, if they can, against this country. What is the sense of detaining an innocent man? You are inflicting considerable hardship upon the

1889
individual, and you are putting the country to a certain amount of inconvenience, because the country has to keep him and pay for his guards. In this particular case also quite a lot of money must have been wasted in dragging him backwards and forwards from Devonshire.
Here we have a man pronounced to be perfectly innocent, and yet there is no sign of his coming out. I do not for one moment suggest that officials wish to be inhumane or inconsiderate in any way, but it does show evidence of laxity and dilatoriness. This is a case of a man who ought never to have been interned. I hope my noble friend will be able to give some sort of satisfactory explanation, but I would like to warn him that I do not mean to leave the case alone. It is very unsatisfactory that all this trouble should be caused by one man, but I intend to pursue the matter, and I hope that I shall meet with some support in your Lordships' House, perhaps from some of the noble Lords opposite who are so much concerned with the rights of individuals.
12.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, when I retired from the Government in November last, I made a resolution not to make any public utterance whatever, for at least a year, lest by any chance I should embarrass my late colleagues. Now the year is ended and I am released from my self-imposed silence, but I am still, of course, restrained by the same resolution that is common to us all, and which I have noticed that your Lordships all observe, not to say anything which might conceivably interfere with the Government plans to ensure what I am certain is the immediate war aim of every one of your Lordships, to achieve victory. My noble friend Lord Newton has for some time had on the Order Paper a question relating to enemy aliens; he has now substituted a question relating to a man called Dr. Dittmar, about whom I know nothing, but I should like to protest against the underlying assumption in his original Motion which has remained on the Order Paper for many days, and also against the underlying assumption contained in his speech—namely, that enemy aliens ought not
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to be kept in confinement unless a definite charge is proved against them.
LORD NEWTON: Alleged.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I thought my noble friend said proved, but I accept the word "alleged" and I protest against that. We British subjects all cheerfully acquiesce in every sort of interference with our liberty. Even if we do not understand the reasons we recognise that the Government, with more knowledge than we can possibly possess, have good reasons for asking us to accept these restrictions and we obey them. Every German who is well disposed to this country will cheerfully accept a similar rule, and indeed internment in England is far preferable to the horrors of the concentration camps.
LORD NEWTON: It is preferable to be at liberty.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Internment is far preferable to the horrors of the concentration camps which have been described in the White Paper, and which would have been his lot, I gather from my noble friend, in Germany. We accept from the Home Office the blackout with its heavy casualty lists and grave public inconvenience because the Government tell us that it is a necessary precaution against grave dangers. But I think the people are entitled to be assured that the security of the blackout will not be imperilled by the release of any Germans on whom the slightest suspicion exists in the minds of those in authority. Any Minister would lay himself open to grave criticism and even to public execration if he allowed the slightest risk, if air raids came, that any Germans should be free to sabotage our air raid precautions or to start fires to guide the enemy. I always understood that in the last war German plans had been completely frustrated by the arrest of all Germans in this country on the outbreak of the war. I fancy that in those days the responsibility for keeping Germans in confinement and for deciding who could safely be at large was vested with the military authorities. I understand that in the present war the Home Office are entrusted with that responsibility. I hope that in discharging this duty the Home Office will be actuated by the same principles, and will

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pay due regard to the views of our Military Intelligence and not release any enemy alien if Military Intelligence considers him or her to be dangerous.
I should like to say in passing, as an ex-Secretary of State for War, that I recognise what I think the public does not realise: the devoted service which the staff of Military Intelligence render to this country. I hope that their activities will not be diverted from their legitimate function of securing the public safety and protecting the Realm against the constant activities of the German espionage system, into formulating or proving any charge against any German who is safely kept in internment. I consider that the basis upon which this duty ought to be exercised is not that any enemy alien should be allowed to go free unless there is a definite charge proved or formulated against him or her, but that no enemy alien ought to be free unless he proves conclusively that he is completely loyal to this country and utterly opposed to his own. I hope that in his reply the noble Marquess who answers for the Government will be able to give a satisfactory assurance to this effect.
12.41 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: My Lords, I need hardly say how fortunate I consider myself that the end of my noble and learned friend's self-imposed vow of silence came at this moment, when he was able to bring such heavy artillery to my assistance. I am grateful to him for the speech which he has made, which, as far as I know, represents very much more closely the attitude of the Government than did the speech of my noble friend Lord Newton. But I do not think that the speech I must make to-day in reply to my noble friend, Lord Newton, need be very long. His speech was based certainly on a misconception, and actually on a misstatement repeated on several occasions—no doubt entirely by accident. But my noble friend's argument really turns on the supposition that the Advisory Committee declared that Dr. Dittmar was innocent. I can only assure him that the Advisory Committee have advised the Secretary of State of no such thing.
LORD NEWTON: You have not heard from them.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: No such advice has come from the Committee. They have seen Dr. Dittmar, they have considered his case, they are presumably still considering all its implications. But it really is not true to say that the Committee have decided that Dr. Dittmar is innocent—at least so far as the Secretary of State's knowledge goes. Therefore it is rather unreasonable that my noble friend should complain too much about a delay which no doubt is very irksome to alien subjects, but which is being reduced as far as is compatible with the efficient working of the tribunal, and which in this case I have no doubt will come to an end in a very short time.
12.44 p.m.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I do not know whether by the indulgence of the House I can say anything, but I gathered from the speech of my noble and learned friend beside me that he would not be really happy until he knew that every single enemy alien in the country was interned, even with the assistance of the black-out. The noble Marquess says that he knows nothing about it. I suggest to him that it is perfectly easy to find out. When he returns to the Home Office—if he ever does repair there—he has only to ask this Committee whether they have considered the case and whether they have sent in a report. My information from the Home Office itself is that whenever a recommendation of that kind comes from the Advisory Committee, it is at once attended to, and if they recommend that such a thing should be done, the man is immediately liberated.

INTERNATIONAL LABOUR ORGANISATION.
12.45 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition, I should like to put the question that stands in his name.
[The Question was as follows: To ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make regarding the co-operation of His Majesty's Government with the International Labour Organisation in view of the forthcoming discussion of the League's budget at Geneva.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): I am glad to be able to assure the noble Lord that His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom maintain their full interest in all the activities which the League of Nations can carry on in present circumstances. In particular His Majesty's Government have shown their full approval of the decision of the Governing Body of the International Labour Office to attempt to continue its work as completely as conditions will allow. The two meetings of the Emergency Committee of the Governing Body have both been attended by a representative of His Majesty's Government, and an official observer has been sent to the Regional Conference of the American States Members of the International Labour Organisation now in session at Havana.
These are examples of the sympathetic interest which His Majesty's Government continue to take in the work of the International Labour Office, and they trust that other Governments will demonstrate the same interest, particularly in regard to the provision of funds to enable the organisation to maintain its efficiency. This question of the finances of the International Labour Organisation, as indeed of the League as a whole, will, by an agreement just reached between the members of the Assembly, be discussed by the Fourth Committee on December 4, and His Majesty's Government's representative on that Committee will naturally bear in mind the importance which His Majesty's Government attach to seeing the work of the International Labour Organisation carried on as effectively as possible in present conditions.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bills:
Restriction of Advertisement (War Risks Insurance).
Official Secrets.

PROROGATION: HIS MAJESTY'S SPEECH.
And afterwards His Majesty's most gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Command) as followeth:—
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"The shadow of war has once more fallen over Europe.
"Despite the efforts of My Government to preserve peace, Germany, in violation of her solemn undertakings, wantonly invaded Poland. This new instance of German aggression and bad faith was a challenge which we could not have declined without dishonour to ourselves and without peril to the cause of freedom and the progress of mankind.
"We seek no material gain. Liberty and free institutions are our birthright which we, like our forefathers, are resolved to preserve.
"Members of the House of Commons,
"I thank you for your ready acceptance of the heavy financial burdens rendered necessary as a contribution towards meeting the severe expense of war. So prompt and ungrudging a response has deeply impressed the world and demonstrates the unflinching determination of My people to make every sacrifice necessary for victory.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"The issue is clear. With united will My peoples here and overseas have dedicated themselves to the struggle. The spontaneous decision of My Dominions to participate in the conflict and the invaluable help which they are giving, and are about to give, to the common cause have been of the greatest encouragement to Me. With the aid of our faithful French and Polish allies we cannot doubt that our cause will prevail.
"I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours."
Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
MY LORDS, AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's name and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday, the twenty-eighth day of November, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-nine, to be then here holden; and this Parliament
1896
is accordingly prorogued to Tuesday, the twenty-eighth day of November, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-nine.
End of the Fourth Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the third year of the Reign of His Majesty King George VI.