Sitting of 15 June 1939

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

DEATH OF A MEMBER.
MR. SPEAKER made the following communication to the House:
I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Ernest Marklew, Esquire, late Member for the County of York (West Riding) (Colne Valley Division), and I am sure the House would wish me to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Oswestry Corporation Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

OFFENCES RELATING TO MOTOR VEHICLES.
Address for,
"Return showing the number of offences relating to motor vehicles in England and Wales, the number of persons prosecuted for such offences, the results of the proceedings in Courts of Summary Jurisdiction, and the number of alleged offences in respect of which written warnings were issued by the police, during the year ended the 31st day, of December, 1938 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 120, of Session 1937–38s)." —[Mr. Peake]

PERSONS IN RECEIPT OF POOR RELIEF IN ENGLAND AND WALES.
Return ordered,
"showing the number of persons in receipt of Poor Relief in England and Wales on the night of the 1st day of January, 1939 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 16–2, of Session 1937–38)." —[Mr. Elliot.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    DURHAM COUNTY.
    Mr. W. Joseph Stewartasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons registered at the Employment Exchanges in Durham county who have been unemployed for periods of one to eight years?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Stewart: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what his Department is doing to deal with long-standing unemployment, and those cases in which men have been unemployed for years?
    Mr. Brown: We have done a number of things to deal with that. I could not possibly go into them all in answer to a question.
    Following is the statement:
    An analysis of the unemployed according to duration of unemployment is available only in respect of those who were applicants for unemployment benefit or allowances. The available figures are given below:

    Unemployed Persons on Registers of Employment Exchanges in Durham County at 15 th May, 1939.

    Total number on registers

    87,664

    Number of applicants for benefit or allowances

    77,742

    Number of such applicants who had been continuously on the registers for—

    One year but less than two years

    9,314

    Two years but less than three years

    4,561

    Three years but less than four years

    3,752

    Four years but less than five years

    1,966

    Five years or more

    6,406

    Some of the persons who had been on the registers for extended periods will have had one or more short spells of employment, lasting not more than three days each, during those periods.

    ALLOWANCES.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Labour on what conditions railway

    1471
    warrants and expenses for removals are granted at the Employment Exchanges; and what are the current instructions with regard to an allowance made for the transport of tools?
    Mr. E. Brown: The answer is rather long, and I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The following is a brief summary of the assistance offered to workpeople who are seeking or who have secured insurable employment at a place beyond daily travelling distance from their homes.
    1.Advances of fares.

    (a)A worker in any part of the country who obtains employment at a distance may be allowed a warrant for the journey on the basis of repayment by instalments. In suitable cases a portion of the cost of this warrant is charged to the Unemployment Fund and is not repayable by the worker.

    (b)A worker in one of certain areas of heavy unemployment (scheduled transference areas) who wishes to travel to a distant non-scheduled area to look for employment may be allowed a warrant on a repayable basis if friends are prepared to provide lodging or accommodation and there appears to be a reasonable prospect of finding employment in the new area.

    2. Free Grants of Fares.
    A free warrant may be issued to an unemployed worker in a scheduled transference area who is travelling to take up approved employment in a distant non-scheduled area.
    3. Household removal expenses.
    A worker resident in a scheduled transference area who obtains employment in a distant non-scheduled area and intends to settle there may be assisted to move his family. The assistance given may include lodging allowances for limited periods whilst two homes have to be maintained, free warrants for his dependents to travel to join him and the reasonable cost of removal of his household effects; normally a further amount of £2 is paid in respect of the incidental costs of removal. These facilities are also available for men from non-scheduled
    1472
    areas who satisfactorily complete a course of training at a Government training centre.
    If, however, the remuneration of the worker in the new area is more than £5per week these household removal expenses are allowed only on a basis of repayment by instalments.
    4. Tools.
    No specific instructions have been issued regarding allowances for the transport of tools, but a worker's ordinary tools which he had not taken with him would usually be included with his household effects for the removal of which payment is made in accordance with the preceding paragraph. Normally this would not cover the removal of heavy machinery but individual cases would be considered exceptionally on their merits.
    If there are further points on which the hon. Member would like specific information, perhaps he would write to me.
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that some unemployed men in West Wales have had their unemployment allowances reduced because thy did not apply for work on the War Department site at Corsham, whereas others who have applied have not been given work at Corsham; and whether the Unemployment Assistance Board has the approval of his Department in reducing allowances in such circumstances?
    Mr. Brown: I am informed by the Board that a few applicants for unemployment assistance in the area referred to have had their allowances reduced following their refusal to consider employment at Corsham. As regards the last part of the question, as the hon. Member is aware, all questions regarding the amount of allowances are determined by the Board's officers or, on appeal, the appeal tribunals, and do not require my approval.
    Mr. Griffiths: Do I gather that the right hon. Gentleman says that these men's allowances have been reduced because they refused to consider employment offered to them at Corsham? Is he aware that they were not offered employment at Corsham but asked whether they were willing to go there and that other men who consented to go, have not been called up and will he say whether this alleged

    1473
    work is being made a pretext for reducing these men's allowances?
    Mr. Brown: Certainly not. I am not aware of the cases to which the hon. Member refers. If he has any particular cases of that kind, I should be glad to know of them. I do know of cases in which, I am informed, work was refused.
    Mr. Griffiths: Are we to gather from the right hon. Gentleman that the U.A.B. has no right to reduce these allowances because the men refuse to seek work, but only if they refuse to accept work?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member must not take that as a ruling from me.

    LIVERPOOL.
    Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Labour what improvement, if any, in the

    The Table below shows for Employment Exchanges in the Liverpool area (including Bootle) the numbers of insured persons, aged 14–64, recorded as unemployed at 16th May, 1938, and 15th May, 1939, for those industries in which appreciable changes occurred between these two dates:

    Industry.

    16th May, 1938.

    15th May, 1939.

    Increase (+) or Decrease (-) in May, 1939, compared with May, 1938.

    Port Transport (Docks, Wharves, etc.)

    10,271

    9,073

    -1,198

    Distributive Trades

    12,600

    11,544

    -1,056

    Laundry Service

    664

    425

    -239

    Goods Transport by Road

    1,730

    1,514

    -216

    Local Government Service

    1,585

    1,378

    -207

    Building

    5,232

    5,041

    -191

    Miscellaneous Transport, Communication, etc., Services.

    943

    756

    - 187

    Miscellaneous Metal Industries

    954

    794

    - 160

    Bread, Biscuit, Cake, etc., Making

    1,125

    994

    -131

    Shipbuilding and Ship-repairing

    3,196

    3,076

    -120

    Public Works Contracting

    1,727

    1,615

    -112

    Tailoring

    798

    689

    -109

    Stationery and Typewriting Requisites (not paper).

    207

    99

    -108

    General Engineering, etc.

    845

    739

    -106

    Hotel, Boarding House, etc., Service

    3,428

    3,742

    + 314

    Hosiery

    89

    331

    + 242

    Shipping Service

    9,117

    9,297

    + 180

    Other industries and services

    17,987

    17,284

    - 703

    All industries and services

    72,498

    68,391

    - 4,107

    BETHNAL GREEN (EXCHANGE FACILITIES).
    Sir Percy Harrisasked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider opening an Employment Exchange in Bethnal Green, whose residents have to register in two exchanges, both of which are outside the borough?
    Mr. E. Brown: One or other of the exchanges at Shoreditch, Hackney and Stepney is within a distance of two miles
    1474
    state of unemployment in the city of Liverpool, including the docks, has taken place in the 12 months ended 30th May, 1939, showing the industries, trades and callings affected favourably or adversely?
    Mr. E. Brown: As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Kirby: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that report is likely to show that the position in Liverpool, in relation to unemployment, remains very much the same?
    Mr. Brown: There is a reduction of some 4,107 in the total figure.
    Following is the statement:
    from practically every part of Bethnal Green. In these circumstances I do not think that the expense of an additional exchange would be justified.
    Sir P. Harris: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is very inconvenient that a local authority which is engaged in public works should not be able to get its men from its own exchange and that this makes it very diff-

    1475
    cult to calculate by districts the real amount of unemployment in the area; and will he approach this problem with an open mind, to see whether a better arrangement is not possible?
    Mr. Brown: I have looked at the matter sympathetically. We have to consider the problem with regard to the needs of the population as a whole in the district.

    SHOREDITCH (OFFICE ACCOMMODATION).
    Sir P. Harrisasked the Minister of Labour whether he can arrange for the opening of an office by the Unemployment Assistance Board more convenient for those registered at the Shoreditch exchange than the present premises at East India Dock Road?
    Mr. E. Brown: Applicants to the Unemployment Assistance Board lodge their applications and receive payment of their allowances at the local offices of the Ministry of Labour at which they register, where also they may notify changes of circumstances. It is the exception, and not the rule, for applicants to find it necessary to call at the Board's area office. Having regard to these circumstances, and to the present distribution of applicants in the district to which the hon. Member refers, the Board do not think they would be justified in making additional office provision for applicants registering at the Shoreditch Employment Exchange.
    Sir P. Harris: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that applicants have often to walk two miles to the East India Dock Road and all the way back; is he aware of the unnecessary strain and irritation caused by having these two offices so far apart, and will he try to make some more convenient arrangement?
    Mr. Brown: I have looked into the matter, but in view of what the hon. Baronet has said, I will have further inquiry made.

    BRYNAMMAN AREA.
    Sir William Jenkinsasked the Minister of Labour whether there are any prospects of new industries in the Brynamman area, where all the tinworks and coal mines have closed down, and where there is still a large number of unemployed workers ready and willing to work?
    Mr. E. Brown: I regret that I am not aware of any new industrial undertaking which is likely to be established at Brynamman.
    Sir W. Jenkins: Have any steps been taken to make inquiries to see whether something cannot be done for this area?
    Mr. Brown: This is one of the areas to which the Ministry is constantly drawing the attention of new industries.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: In the meantime will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Lord Privy Seal on the possibility of some orders for air-raid shelters being diverted to works in this area which are likely to be able to deal with them?
    Mr. Brown: That has been done but we have to consider the needs of the whole area.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman in touch with any organisation which could help him to get new industries set up by refugees from the Continent who have special technical knowledge?
    Mr. Brown: All these organisations are put in touch at once, and given advice on these matters by the Ministry of Labour, and this is one of the areas the claims of which I am constantly pressing.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: Does not the Minister realise that concentration on the Treforest Trading Estate is militating against the prospect of other parts of the area?
    Mr. Brown: I should not say that. I should say, on the contrary, that the success of Treforest and other trading estates is more likely to help these areas than anything else, because it proves that they are areas to which industrialists who wish to develop their industries would do well to go.

    NEW INDUSTRIES, GLOUCESTERSHIRE (WAGE DEDUCTIONS).
    Mr. Priceasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware than men living in the Forest of Dean and working in new industries in other parts of Gloucestershire have 2s. a day for omnibus fares deducted from their wages, which vary from 6s. to 9s. according to hours worked, and that when the omnibus arrives late through no fault of their

    1477
    own further deductions are made; and whether he will take steps to remedy this matter?
    Mr. E. Brown: The large demand for workers in the Gloucester area has provided opportunities of employment for men available in the Forest of Dean, which I understand has been much welcomed by the men. To suit the domestic circumstances of the men and to meet the difficulty of obtaining suitable accommodation in Gloucester, special arrangements for daily transport by omnibus have been made. The fares which are paid by the men direct to the omnibus company vary from 6s. to 8s. per week. The men receive wages of 1s. 2¼d. or 1s. ½. per hour for a 49-hour week, which provides a higher daily wage than the hon. Member's question suggests. They are, in accordance with ordinary practice, not paid for travelling time. In so far as the men are unable or unwilling to move to residences nearer the work I do not see that more satisfactory arrangements can be made.
    Mr. Prices: Will the Minister answer that part of the question which deals with deductions from the men's wages when the omnibuses are late through no fault of the men? That goes on and the men have no remedy. Is the Minister satisfied that the employers are legally entitled to make those deductions?
    Mr. Brown: I must point out that the arrangements have been made to suit the convenience of the men. Many of them are married and own their houses, and the local employment committee, on which the workers' interests are represented, expressed satisfaction with the arrangements at its very last meeting.

    HACKNEY.
    Mr. Watkinsasked the Minister of Labour the cause of the increase of the number of unemployed from 6,886 in March, 1937, to 8.757 in March, 1939, in Hackney?
    Mr. E. Brown: An examination of the industrial classification of unemployed persons registering at the Hackney Employment Exchange shows that an increase in the numbers unemployed in the period referred to occurred in most of the industries carried on in the district but mainly in the furniture trades.

    HOURS OF WORK.
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Minister of Labour whether he will try to arrange a meeting with employers to consider an all-round reduction of working hours per day, so as to prepare the way for the absorption of unemployed persons when the rearmament crisis passes?
    Mr. E. Brown: While thanking the hon. Member for his suggestion I do not think that any useful result would be obtained by such action at the present time.
    Mr. Tinker: Is the Minister not aware that all the schemes found by the Government so far have failed, and does he not realise that this is the only way of dealing with unemployment, and is it not time to consider it?
    Mr. Brown: I should not accept that statement by the hon. Member as being a correct presentation of the situation. As he knows this matter is being considered by the International Labour Office, because there are international circumstances to be considered in connection with a general reduction of hours.

    NEW EXCHANGE, SOUTHWARK.
    Mr. Day: asked the Minister of Labour whether the working drawings for the proposed new Employment Exchange for the Borough of Southwark have been completed, and when it is proposed to commence work on same?
    Mr. E. Brown: I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to his questions of 4th May and 8th June last.
    Mr. E. Smith: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the conditions at the present exchange? If not, will he take an early opportunity of inspecting it, because if he does I am confident that he will expedite the construction of the new one.
    Mr. Brown: I know about the exchange and I am doing my best in the matter.
    Mr. Day: Can the Minister say when he expects that the new exchange will be opened?
    Mr. Brown: I hope the staff will be at work there before the end of the year.
    Mr. Day: Cannot the present inconveniences be temporarily remedied?

    COLLIERY SURFACE WORKERS, WAKEFIELD.
    Mr. Lunnasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. J. Milburn, an unemployed surface worker attending the Wakefield Employment Exchange, was given a green card and sent to Park Hills Colliery, Wakefield, in accordance with a request from the colliery manager for four surface workers; that he had been employed at the colliery previously and is regarded as a good workman; and that, when he, along with three others, applied to the manager for a job, he was turned down, the other men being given employment; can he state the reason for this man not being accepted for work; and what is his position with regard to unemployment benefit?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am having inquiries made and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.
    Mr. Lunn: In view of the fact that this man offered himself for the work after a request for workers had been made by the colliery manager, and was then turned down, is this not a clear case of victimisation, and cannot the right hon. Gentleman deal with the matter?
    Mr. Brown: The result of my first inquiries led me to pursue them. I am not quite sure about the facts, but as soon as I have them I will let the hon. Member know.

    MILITARY CAMP BUILDING, YORKSHIRE.
    Mr. Lunnasked the Minister of Labour why, in the building of a military camp near Harrogate, the local unemployed from Leeds and the surrounding area are not being given any opportunity of work, and though many applications have been made to the Leeds Employment Exchange it is stated no opportunity is to be given to the local unemployed by the contractors?
    Mr. E. Brown: I think the hon. Member must be misinformed. The contractor on this site has accepted 128 carpenters and joiners and no labourers from applicants submitted by Employment Exchanges in Leeds and the surrounding. area, including Armley, Bradford, Guisely, Otley and Stanningley. From the Leeds Employment Exchange alone 74 carpenters and joiners and 97 labourers have been placed on this contract.
    Mr. Lunn: Is it not a fact that much of this labour is obtained from other countries rather than from the localities, although those who are undertaking Government work are required to get as much labour as possible from the locality rather than to go to foreign countries or other parts of the Empire?
    Mr. Brown: I understand that some of the large contractors who do this work have a sort of nucleus of permanent workers, men whom they employ regularly.
    Mr. T. Smith: Is the Minister aware that men who have been employed at this camp are alleging that they have been sent away in order to make room for young men from Ireland?
    Mr. Brown: I had a letter about one case of that kind some four or five days ago, but I am not sure that inquiries substantiated the allegation.
    Mr. Smith: The Minister will recollect that I put a question to him on Tuesday about a case in which 30 men were sent back, for no other reason, so many of them alleged, than that a body of young men had arrived from Ireland?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows what my answer was.

    MEDICAL SERVICES, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the representations made by the county councils of Scotland, urging that the medical needs of persons receiving aid from the Unemployment Assistance Board be borne by the Board; and whether he will take steps to gain such powers?
    Mr. E. Brown: I have seen a copy of a circular letter on this subject from the Association of County Councils in Scotland to all Members of Parliament for Scottish constituencies. The question raised would obviously affect a wider area. The present arrangements were deliberately adopted by Parliament, and I know of no good reason for altering them.
    Mr. Leonard: Has the Minister not considered the great amount of work falling upon local authorities in various parts of the country and does he not think that ought to receive some recognition?
    Mr. Brown: To do what is asked would in many cases involve a duplication of medical services. This is a highly specialised service, and that was one of the factors taken into account in coming to a decision.
    Mr. Leonard: Does not the fact that it is so highly specialised point to the need for some recognition of a financial character from the Fund?

    TRAINING.
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Labour whether he will be prepared to make special family allowances to enable married men who are desirous of under going training at Government training centres to be admitted, and whose wages at the end of training commence only at improvers' rates?
    Mr. E. Brown: Special allowances are already made to married men while in training, but I could not contemplate paying allowances to them in addition to their wages after they have entered employment.
    Miss Ward: Would my right hon. Friend reconsider that proposal in order that the men at the training schools might not have to stay unemployed for the rest of their lives, and that it might be an advantage to get them work?
    Mr. Brown: I have looked at the matter many times.
    Miss Ward: Could my right hon. Friend look at it again?
    Mr. Brown: Yes, I will look at it again, but I cannot give my hon. Friend any hope that reconsideration will lead to a fresh result.
    Miss Ward: Never mind, you start!
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Labour whether he will discuss with the Minister of Supply, the advisability of offering training to such unemployed men as desire to take advantage of it, in certain classes of industrial work in order that they may be equipped to benefit by such industrial expansion as may be considered advisable by the Minister of Supply?
    Mr. Brown: Training at Government training centres is already offered to all suitable unemployed men, and the courses of training provided are modified from
    1482
    time to time to meet the changing demands of industry. In considering such modifications, the advice of the Ministry of Supply will certainly be sought.

    ELDERLY MEN.
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Labour whether he will instruct managers of Employment Exchanges to seek personal interviews with employers of labour with a view to placing, where possible, a proportion of elderly unemployed men?
    Mr. E. Brown: It is the practice of officers engaged in placing work to bring, in appropriate cases, the claims of suitable older men to the attention of employers who have notified vacancies. While I sympathise with the intention of my hon. Friend's suggestion, I do not think the issue of a general instruction is desirable as the value of a personal approach in any individual case is best left to the judgment of the officers concerned in the light of their local knowledge and of the particular circumstances of the case.
    Miss Ward: Will my righthon. Friend bear in mind that it appears from inquiry that certain large industries have never been approached on this matter, as individuals? In view of the persuasive power of my right hon. Friend, will he consider looking at it from a new point of view and a new approach on behalf of the elderly unemployed men?
    Mr. Brown: I have already been doing what my hon. Friend is suggesting.
    Miss Ward: Could we start that work again?

    TRANSFERENCE.
    Mr. Burkeasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that a number of joiners have been sent from the Burnley Employment Exchange to Devonshire and other remote places involving heavy expenses; and what system is adopted by the exchanges in filling vacancies occasioned by the Government's need for camps and other new buildings?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am having inquiries made with regard to the cases referred to and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible. The general arrangements are designed to secure that the nearest men who are suitable or available are submitted for filling vacancies.
    Mr. Burke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the last set of cases of this character was inquired into 10 weeks ago, and does he think that there is any real efficiency in sending people right from the North of England to the South when there are thousands of joiners unemployed in Bristol and London and very near the spot, and, at the same time, joiners are travelling from the South to the North?
    Mr. Brown: I could not accept the hon. Member's statement, and I would add that it might be a very great advantage to a man in Burnley to have an offer of this kind.
    Mr. Burke: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is an advantage for a man who has four children, that he has to put out in the care of other people at very great cost to himself, to have to come up here, pay for his lodgings and be left with hardly any money for his week's work; and can the right hon. Gentleman not get work for these men somewhere nearer to their homes than 300 miles away?
    Mr. Brown: I have not had the case put before me, so that I cannot express any judgment about it. The whole House knows that the regular system which is adopted is that jobs are found for these men, if available, in their home towns and home districts, and only elsewhere if there are no jobs there.

    GOVERNMENT AND MUNICIPAL CONTRACTS (IMPORTED LABOUR).
    Major Milnerasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the widespread complaint of the employment of imported Irish labour on Government and municipal contracts to the detriment of our own unemployed; whether any regulations or conditions are in force regarding this matter, and whether he can give or obtain details of the imported labour at present employed on Government contracts?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am aware that Irish labour is employed to a limited extent on some Government and municipal contracts. As regards the second part of the question, there is included in ail Government contracts of the value of £500 or over entered into since 1st January, 1938. a clause requiring contractors to notify the appropriate Employment Exchange as and when any additional labour is required to carry out the contract. In the
    1484
    case of municipal contracts, I am informed that a clause is inserted in contracts undertaken by local authorities on behalf of the Ministry of Transport, requiring the contractors to engage men employed on the work, with the exception of supervising staff, through the Employment Exchanges. As regards other contracts it is the practice of many local authorities to include a note in the form of tender to the effect that their contractors must give a preference to men residing in their area. As regards the last part of the question, the information asked for is not available and the supply and collection of this information from the large number of Government contractors concerned, would involve contractors and contracting Departments in an amount of labour which in present circumstances I cannot ask them to undertake.
    Major Milner: Is it not clear that the only obligation, according to the first part of the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, is to notify Employment Exchanges? Is it not true that unless the condition is inserted which is set out in my next question, No. 33, the contractors have no difficulty in evading that condition and engaging imported Irish labour?
    Mr. Brown: Perhaps the hon. Member will await my answer to Question 33.
    Major Milner: Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to obtain from the contractors whose names I have given him—
    Mr. Buchanan: Why not give the names to the House?
    Major Milner: — the numbers relating to the imported Irish casual labour which they employ?
    Mr. Brown: I suggest that the hon. and gallant Member should await my next answer.
    Mr. Maxton: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that these contractors have some intelligent reason for preferring Irish labour, or does he think that it is sheer malignity on their part?
    Mr. Brown: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman needs to impute an ethical motive. It is well known that there are Irish labourers of very great skill, particularly for heavy work, and it is well known, also, that some contractors require that kind of labour.
    Major Milnerasked the Minister of Labour whether he will arrange for a condition to be inserted in all Government and municipal contracts involving a contribution from the Government, compelling contractors to engage additional labour, other than key men, through the Employment Exchange system, so as to ensure local labour being employed when available?
    Mr. Brown: The practical difficulties raised by this proposal require detailed examination in consultation with the industries affected. These discussions are not yet completed, and I regret that I am not yet able to add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Pilkington) on 11th May.
    Major Milner: Will the Minister press the matter forward and be good enough to let me know when I may put down a further question?
    Mr. Brown: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. J. J. Davidson: Will the Minister be careful to see, in making these

    Date.

    Numbers of persons registered as unemployed.

    Men, aged 18 and over.

    Boys, aged 14–17.

    Women, aged 18 and over.

    Girls, aged 14–17.

    Total, aged 14 and over.

    16th May, 1938

    …

    4,655

    133

    1,480

    112

    6,380

    15th August, 1938

    …

    4,367

    162

    1,108

    153

    5,590

    14th November,1938

    …

    5,253

    149

    1,197

    131

    6,730

    13th February, 1939

    …

    5,967

    244

    1,556

    128

    7,895

    15th May, 1939

    …

    3,721

    129

    1,262

    56

    5,168

    The following table analyses according to length of the last spell of unemployment the
    numbers of applicants for

    Length of period on register at 15th May, 1939.

    Numbers of applicants for benefit or allowances.

    Men, aged 18–64.

    Boys, aged 16–17.

    Women, aged 18–64.

    Girls, aged 16–17.

    Total, aged 16–64.

    Less than three months

    2,348

    67

    800

    16

    3,231

    Three months but less than six months.

    377

    2

    143

    —

    522

    Six months or more

    660

    —

    110

    —

    770

    Total

    3,385

    69

    1,053

    16

    4,523

    some of the persons who had been on the Registers for extended periods will have had one or more short spells of
    arrangements, that there are no repercussions on English and Scottish labourers in Ireland?
    Mr. Brown: The point at issue is the one raised by the hon. and gallant Member in his question.

    LEYTON.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Labour the number of registered unemployed men, women, boys and girls respectively, of the Borough of Leyton, for each of the past five quarterly periods; and the present number of the above who have been unemployed for more than three and for more than six months?
    Mr. E. Brown: As the reply includes tables of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    The table below shows the numbers of men, boys, women and girls registered as unemployed at the Leyton and Walthamstow Employment Exchange and Juvenile Employment Bureaux at five quarterly dates ending 15th May, 1939.
    unemployment benefit or allowances included in the total for 15th May, 1939.
    employment, lasting not more than three days each, during those periods.

  MILITARY TRAINING.

    ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE.
    Mr. George Hallasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that young men when registering under the Military Training Act and expressing a preference for service in the Royal Air Force were asked to sign forms which deemed them to have enlisted for five years and not four as was specified?
    Mr. E. Brown: Enlistment in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve is for five years, including a period of six months' continuous training. When registering under the Military Training Act men who expressed a preference for Royal Air Force service were handed notices and forms of application for enlistment, copies of which I am sending the hon. Member. Both documents state clearly that the period of enlistment in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve is for five years.
    Mr. Hall: Is not that a violation of the Military Training Act and of specific declarations made by the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Brown: Not at all. This is a matter of option and of choice on the part of the men themselves.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman now state that the power to ask men to serve five years in the Royal Air Force, which is one of the branches of His Majesty's service, is included in the Military Training Act and is derived from that Act?
    Mr. Brown: I have not said so. I have said that this is an option which the men exercise.
    Mr. Shinwell: If power is not derived from the Act, by what right do the Government exercise the power to ask men to serve five years?
    Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member wants a precise statement and if he puts down a question, I will gladly give him an answer.
    Mr. Hall: Is it not the case that Section 6 (2) of the Military Training Act, states specifically that the period for which militiamen join is 3½ years and six months of training?
    Mr. Brown: That is so. The whole question turns on the difference between
    1488
    ordinary compulsory service and the voluntary option exercised by the men themselves.
    Mr. Hall: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES.
    Mr. George Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour what instructions he is giving when a person is called up for training under the Military Training Act and makes an allowance to his parents who are receiving either Unemployment Assistance Board scales or public assistance allowance, as to whether the amount received through the Military Training Act will be counted as income into the home for the purpose of assessment?
    Mr. E. Brown: I understand from the Unemployment Assistance Board that they propose to ignore the 3s. 6d. a week which such a person allots from his military pay. Any sums which the military authorities add to this will be regarded by the Board as available to meet the needs of the dependant to whom they are granted, but they will not ordinarily be regarded as available to meet the needs of any other person. So far as public assistance is concerned the matter is one for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
    Mr. Griffiths: Does that mean that. only the first 3s. 6d. will not be taken into account; and if that is so, is there not the possibility that the unemployment scale may be reduced, in some cases, by 13s. 6d.?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member had better consider my answer, which is a very careful one.
    Mr. Griffiths: May I say that I listened very attentively to the answer, and if I got it properly it means that anything over 3s. 6d. will be taken into account and that the Unemployment Assistance Board scales will be reduced accordingly?
    Miss Ward: Would it be possible for unemployment assistance officers still to exercise discretion in certain of these cases, where there are special circumstances?
    Mr. Brown: That is always so.
    Mr. Arthur Greenwood: What does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean, if it does not mean what my hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth (Mr. G. Griffiths) has suggested? Is it within the power of the Unemployment Assistance Board officers to increase the amount which is not to be taken into account? Secondly, is it not right that there should be uniformity of treatment; and will the right hon. Gentleman press upon his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health the necessity of seeking to secure that public assistance authorities act as generously as the Unemployment Assistance Board?
    Mr. Brown: The point that I was putting to the House was that I could not accept the hon. Member's statement because these are determinations by need and resources. I have given the answer to the actual question asked.
    Mr. G. Griffiths: It states that they cannot get it without need— neither the 3s. 6d. nor the other.

    UNEMPLOYED.
    Mr. W. H. Greenasked the Minister of Labour whether he will see that militiamen called up for training shall, if unemployed, be given the opportunity of serving with the first section called up for training, in order to avoid being unemployed till such calling-up takes place, if deferred, to a later date?
    Mr. E. Brown: Yes, Sir. Arrangements have already been made whereby if unemployed men registered for military training ask to be called up immediately this will, as far as practicable, be done.
    Mr. Green: Will the Minister state whether this information will be made available to those concerned?
    Mr. Brown: I think it is well known, but I will make inquiries in order to make sure.
    Mr. G. Griffiths: Why does the Minister not try to get these chaps work somewhere else than in the Militia?
    Mr. Brown: It is not as simple as that.

    UNIVERSITIES.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Labour whether he is able to make a statement concerning the discussions he has had with representatives of the Headmasters' Conference on the proposal to
    1490
    allow militiamen who are to proceed to a university to ante-date their military training?
    Mr. E. Brown: I met representatives of the Headmasters' Conference, the Incorporated Association of Headmasters and the Association of Assistant Masters on Tuesday last, and their representations are now under consideration.
    Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his action in meeting representatives of the teachers is very much appreciated, and that if he is able to give a decision in accordance with the views which they expressed, it will give general satisfaction?
    Mr. Mander: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he did not take them into consultation before coming to a decision, instead of leaving it to this late date?
    Mr. Brown: Because I did not see the Vice-Chancellor of the University until the Committee stage was through, and the House will know that the question of postponement in the case of those at present in the universities was much more urgent than the possible anticipation of training in the case of those who are not yet leaving school.

    DISCHARGED WORKERS.
    Mr. Dunnasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. Fred Vernon of 4, Riddings, Thurcrofts, near Rotherham, has been discharged from his work by Messrs. Rodgers & Sons. plasterers, Rotherham, and that the boy was 20 years of age and had been an excellent worker with the firm, but was discharged at a minute's notice by Messrs. Rodgers & Sons, on 3rd June, the day when he was due to register in the Militia; and has he any observations to make concerning this case?
    Mr. E. Brown: I have no information as to the circumstances of this particular case, and am making inquiry.
    Mr. Watkins: Are not occurrences such as those detailed in the questions happening all over the country? Are not boys being sacked without redress at all? Can the Minister do nothing to help?
    Mr. Brown: I could not accept that statement of the position. I have had some communications about it, but I must

    1491
    warn the House that my preliminary inquiries in one or two cases show another side of the story. That is not to say that what is alleged may not be true in some cases. If on further inquiries I find it is so, I will do what I can to stop it.
    Mr. Wedgwood Benn: Is it not the fact that these boys have no legal redress?
    Mr. Dunn: Is the Minister not aware that the man in this case has been interviewed and that already a statement has appeared in the northern Press? I do not, therefore, understand the Minister saying that he does not know anything about it.
    Mr. Brown: I had no information about it, but I did set inquiries on foot.
    Mr. Benn: Has the Minister any power to save a young man if the case occurred before the regulations were issued?
    Mr. Brown: I have already pointed out to the House what the position is.
    Mr. Tinker: If the Minister has heard only the employer's side, will he consult with the hon. Member who has made the complaint?
    Mr. Brown: Most certainly.
    Mr. Silverman: Why was it impossible to make the regulations retrospective having regard to the fact that the Government had made it clear from the outset that it was their intention to prevent this sort of thing happening?
    Mr. Brown: The question put to me asked what legal power I had, and I answered it, but that is not to say we are powerless to take action by throwing the light of day on the case.

    RENT (COLLIERY FIRMS, DURHAM).
    Mr. Whiteleyasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that in the case of young men called up who are the householders, colliery firms in Durham county have intimated that rent will be charged from the day training commences; and whether he will have inquiries made with a view to such practice being brought to an end?
    Mr. E. Brown: Questions relating to the relief of the civil liabilities of Militiamen during their training are dealt with in the Order in Council issued to-day. If the hon. Member will study the Order he will
    1492
    find that every reasonable protection is being given in cases of this kind.
    Mr. Whiteley: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that between 1914 and 1918 there was no charge for colliery houses occupied by the families of men who were going to the Front, and could he not put into operation a scheme to deal with this matter on the same lines?
    Mr. Brown: Perhaps the hon. Member had better look at the Order in Council.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Order in Council does not deal with this point at all?
    Mr. Brown: Yes.
    Mr. Shinwell: No, not with this specific point.

    MEDICAL EXAMINATION.
    Major Procterasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that militiamen from the Accrington Parliamentary Division have to travel to Blackburn for their medical examination and pay their own fares; and whether he will issue instructions that militiamen will have these expenses refunded or, alternatively, will permit these men to be examined in Accrington?
    Mr. E. Brown: I understand that the distance involved is less than six miles, and in these circumstances fares are not paid. The volume of work is not sufficient to justify the setting up of an additional board at Accrington.
    Major Procter: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these men have to pay from 6d. to Is. Id. to get to their destination to be examined, and considering the smallness of the amount— it is large to the individual but not to the country— does he not consider that he might make a grant to pay the fares in necessitous cases?
    Mr. Brown: I will watch the procedure and see whether anything can be done.
    Mr. Burke: Would the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind that terribly low wages are being paid in North-East Lancashire and that these people cannot possibly afford to pay 6d. twice or thrice a week?
    Mr. De la Bèereasked the Minister of Health whether, in connection with the calling up of militiamen, any use will be made of the data collected at their

    1493
    initial medical examination to ascertain the physical state of this unselected sample of the population?
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): Yes, Sir. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour stated in reply to a question on the 12th instant, we hope that these data will supply valuable information as to the health and physique of men falling within the age group concerned.

    CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
    Mr. Richardsasked the Minister of Labour whether, in setting up tribunals to hear conscientious objectors from Wales under the Military Training Act, he will bear in mind the necessity for such hearings to be held in the Principality and, when necessary, by persons conversant with the Welsh language?
    Mr. E. Brown: I will certainly bear in mind the point mentioned by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Labour when the names of the members of the tribunals that are to hear applications from conscientious objectors under the Military Training Act will be published?
    Mr. Brown: I hope to be in a position to publish the names shortly.

    WILLENHALL, STAFFS.
    Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that persons liable to be called up under the Military Training Act have been refused employment for that reason in Willenhall, Staffs; and what steps he proposes to take to remove this disability?
    Mr. E. Brown: I have no particulars of such cases.
    Mr. Mander: Would the Minister not strongly deprecate the action of any employer in refusing employment to a young man solely on the ground that he was liable to be called up under the Military Training Act?
    Mr. Brown: I certainly should.

    SOLICITORS' ARTICLED CLERKS.
    Mr. Dunnasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Law Society have decreed that solicitors' articled clerks liable to training under the Military Training Act will upon their
    1494
    return from training have to serve a further period of six months under new articles which may involve payment of a further premium; and whether, in the regulations he proposes to make, provision will be made for ensuring that the six months of training shall count as part of the period of apprenticeship, or, at any rate, that the clerk shall not be compelled to pay any additional premium?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am making inquiries into this matter.
    Mr. Dunn: Need this question necessitate any particularly involved inquiries, seeing that statements have already appeared in the Press to the effect that large classes are involved? Further, is not this practice contrary to the practice adopted at the present time in ordinary business?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows quite well that, while our Press is renowned for its standards, the statements which appear are not always accurate.

    STUDENTS (POSTPONEMENT).
    Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Minister of Labour whether students entering in 1939 a residential college, other than a university college, will be permitted to postpone their period of military training until the conclusion of their course of study?
    Mr. E. Brown: The students entering colleges in 1939 who will be permitted to postpone their period of military training include, in addition to university students, full-time students at medical faculties and schools, dental schools, training colleges for teachers, agricultural colleges, veterinary colleges, technical colleges, schools of art and schools of architecture. Applications from students at other colleges will be referred, if necessary, to the Military Training (Hardship) Committees.
    Mr. G. Griffiths: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider also the fact that young miners have to work a long time at the coal face before they become efficient; and will he allow them to have the two years as well?

  WAGES.
  Mr. Brookeasked the Minister of Labour what was the net effect of

  1495
  changes in rates of wages, as reported to his Department, during the periods 1928 to 1931 and 1935 to 1938, respectively?
  Mr. E. Brown: In the industries for which statistics are regularly compiled, the changes in weekly full-time rates of wages reported to the Department amounted to a net decrease of £ 678,550 in the period 1928 to 1931, and to a net increase of £ 1,715,200 in the period 1935 to 1938. The statistics are exclusive of changes in the rates of wages of agricultural labourers, domestic servants, shop assistants, clerks and Government employés, and they relate in the main to changes collectively arranged between organised groups of employers and workpeople.
  Mr. Paling: How do those figures compare with the amount of the subsidy that has been given to employers?
  Mr. Gallacher: Would the right hon. Gentleman give us the figures showing the rate of production and the rate of profit?
  Mr. J. Griffiths: What is the increase in the rate of productivity?
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member will put the question down I will do my best to give him an accurate answer.

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (COMPULSORY PURCHASE).
  Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that certain town planning authorities in the home counties are, for the purposes of bringing land within the green belt, seeking in their schemes, to pray in aid the powers of compulsory purchase vested in them by Section 25 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932; and whether he is prepared to state that where an owner has expressed his willingness to dedicate his property to green belt uses under Section 3 (c) (ii) of the Green Belt (London and Home Counties) Act, 1938, and to enter into an agreement with the planning authority under Section 18 of the latter Act, he will refuse to permit latent powers of compulsory purchase under Section 25 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, to be applied as well in cases where a resident owner objects?
  Mr. Elliot: I am aware of the provisions referred to in certain planning schemes submitted for my approval. These schemes will, in due course, be the subject of public local inquiries, when interested parties will have an opportunity of making representations. Any such representations will receive my careful consideration in conjunction with my inspectors' reports.
  Sir W. Smithers: Why cannot my right hon. Friend lay down, for the guidance of these authorities, the principles by which such matters should be governed?
  Mr. Elliot: If my hon. Friend desires it, I could discuss with him in my office the various principles involved.

  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE.
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Health whether he will cause an inquiry to be instituted into the operations of the family means test with a view to ascertaining whether it does not extend the liabilities of the relatives of destitute persons beyond the statutory limits of Section 14 of the Poor Law Act, 1930, in so far as relief is frequently refused to able-bodied persons on the grounds that they were residing with relatives not specified as responsible under this Section?
  Mr. Elliot: No, Sir. The Poor Law authority have the duty to determine, in the light of the circumstances in the particular case, whether or not an applicant is in need of relief or whether there are resources available to him to meet his needs.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the undeserved suffering that is endured by many hundreds of people, will not the Minister arrange for the setting up of a Select Committee to inquire into the whole working of the means test at the present time?
  Mr. Elliot: I am afraid that that goes beyond the question on the Paper.
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that serious delays often occur in the granting of special nourishment allowances by the Unemployment Assistance Board, after the production of a doctor's certificate, owing to the practice of Boards sending applicants to local authorities for milk or

  1497
  other items of diet; and what steps he is taking to see that the cost of extra nourishment for Unemployment Assistance Board applicants and their dependants is borne by the' Unemployment Assistance Board and not by local authorities, and is the same practice followed in recommendations for extra nourishment in connection with maternity needs?
  Mr. Elliot: I am not aware of any serious delays as suggested by the hon. Member, but, if he will send me particulars, I shall be glad to look into any cases he may have in mind. With regard to the second part of the question, where extra nourishment is given generally by a local authority under its public health powers as part of treatment, there would not appear to be any justification for excluding the Board's applicants from the scope of the service.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is it not obvious that many of these applicants are in the position of being sent from one office to another, and that time is lost and very often great difficulties are experienced?
  Mr. Elliot: If there are serious delays, I shall be very glad to look into them.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Minister of Health whether he is satisfied with the arrangement of notification to insured contributors of arrears by all approved societies?
  Mr. Elliot: I am satisfied that the arrangements under which approved societies notify members of their arrears of contributions work satisfactorily. If the hon. Member has information which suggests that in any particular instance the requirements of the regulations are not carried out, I shall be happy to have inquiries made.
  Mr. Smith: Is the Minister aware of the large number of insured contributors who lose their pension rights as the result of not receiving notification; and of the relatively large number of widows who are denied their right to pensions because the notification is not satisfactory?
  Mr. Elliot: If the hon. Member has information as to any such cases, I shall be glad to have it.
  Mr. Buchanan: Will not the right hon. Gentleman circularise all approved societies asking them to see that these regulations are operated?
  Mr. Elliot: I should like in the first place to have evidence that they are not operating satisfactorily.

  RURAL WATER SUPPLIES.
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider a scheme for assisting the local water companies throughout the country to secure a reliable and adequate supply being available in many hundreds of rural districts and villages that are at present without a supply?
  Mr. Elliot: I am always ready to consider proposals for the improvement of rural water supplies, and perhaps my hon. Friend will let me know what scheme he has in mind.
  Mr. De la Bère: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are still 539 villages and parishes which receive no benefit from the special grant, and will he look into the matter; and is he further aware that many of these cases are in Evesham, and that Evesham will not be happy till they get it?
  Mr. John Morganasked the Minister of Health how many rural parishes in England and Wales are without a piped-water supply?
  Mr. Elliot: The number of parishes in England and Wales without a piped water supply is 3,432. These parishes contain about one-eighth of the rural population.
  Mr. Morgan: Are not any of these rural parishes places to which the Minister intends to evacuate children, and is he able to take any responsibility for the water supply of these areas?
  Mr. Elliot: As I explained in a previous answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate), naturally these matters are taken into consideration by the local authority before determining to send children.
  Mr. Morgan: Are local authorities being advised by the Minister as to how they are to meet the position?
  Mr. Elliot: All these matters are under continual discussion between these authorities and myself.
  Mrs. Tate: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that so far the local authorities are doing nothing?
  Mr. De la Bère: Is not the whole matter thoroughly unsatisfactory?
  Mr. J. Morganasked the Minister of Health how many rural parishes in England and Wales with a piped-water supply are without a public system of sewerage disposal?
  Mr. Elliot: The information at my disposal does not enable me to give the exact figure, but it is estimated that there are 2,000 such parishes.
  Mr. Morgan: Did not the Minister inaugurate a rural water scheme which brought the problem of public sewage very much to the fore in the villages concerned, and does he not accept responsibility?
  Mr. Elliot: The central Department does not accept responsibility. This is a local affair. The parish pump has been one of the matters of local government ever since local government began.

  FOREIGN PUBLICITY DEPARTMENT.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister if, without instituting any direct Government control or censorship in peace time, he will co-ordinate under a Member of the Government the general direction of the work of the various existing agencies engaged in making British news and views known throughout the world with a view to ensuring more effective dissemination of British news, and especially the correction of deliberately misleading statements regarding British aims and intentions in international affairs likely to embitter international relations?
  Mr. Lipsonasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have under consideration the question of setting up a Ministry of Propaganda?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): His Majesty's Government have recently given attention to the question whether a further development of present methods of publicity during peace time is required. It is not their intention to set up a Ministry of Information or Propaganda, which in their opinion is not what is re-
  1500
  quired at the present time. The House is aware that a great deal of valuable work is already being done in spreading a knowledge of this country through the cultural and educational work of the British Council, in disseminating accurate information and counteracting foreign misrepresentation of British policy and action by the B.B.C. in their foreign language broadcasts and by the Press. The Foreign Office maintains the necessary contacts with all these channels of publicity. There is reason to suppose that these efforts have been a good deal more effective than is generally realised, but the Government is of opinion that their effectiveness could be considerably strengthened if their direction were co-ordinated and concentrated in a special department of the Foreign Office.
  Accordingly it has been decided to set up a new department under the name of the Foreign Publicity Department of the Foreign Office. This department will include that section of the News Department which has previously been concerned with this work, and will be provided with additional staff. A Supplementary Estimate will be presented next month to cover the cost of the new staff and also any additional operational costs. My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Undersecretary of State will give special attention to the Foreign Publicity Department, and I am glad to say that Lord Perth, whose wide acquaintance of international affairs is well known, has accepted the invitation of the Foreign Secretary to undertake the general supervision, under my Noble Friend, of the work of the section.
  In the event of this country ever becoming engaged in a major war, it would be the intention of the Government to set up at once a Ministry of Information with a Cabinet Minister at its head and a Director-General whose status would be equivalent to that of the permanent head of a public Department of the first rank. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has at my request undertaken the responsibility of preparing the necessary plans (in connection with which considerable preliminary work has already been done), and Lord Perth, in addition to the duties I have already mentioned, will also be available to assist in completing these plans as Director-General designate of the Ministry of Information in time of war.

  1501
  The Ministry of Information will operate in war time; in peace conditions, after the necessary plans have been completed there will only exist a skeleton organisation, without which swift action would be impossible if an emergency arose. A Supplementary Estimate for the Home Office will be presented next month to provide for the cost of planning a wartime Ministry and for such equipment as is considered necessary.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Will the Prime Minister himself be responsible in this House for answering questions concerning the work of the new Department, or will that be in the hands of the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs; and, further, will he associate with the work of this Department some person recommended by the newspaper Press interests in this country, in order to have the benefit of expert knowledge of these matters?
  The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will answer questions on the subject of the Department. As regards the second question, I do not think that any such proposal has been under consideration, as far as I am aware.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Will the right hon. Gentleman take it into consideration in setting up this Department?
  The Prime Minister: I think we had better set up the Department, and then consider it.
  Mr. Greenwood: Seeing that it has been decided to establish now the skeleton of a Ministry, can the Prime Minister say that all its activities in peace-time will be confined purely to foreign information, and that there will be no attempt in times of peace to interfere with the work of the Press or the legitimate activities of this country; and are we to understand that, whatever its duties and responsibilities may be in time of war, at the present time its activities are to be definitely limited to those of foreign propaganda and information?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, I tried to make it clear that the development which I had indicated for peace-time would not constitute the setting up of a new Ministry. That would be a war-time measure only. With regard to the peace-
  1502
  time publicity which I have described, that would be concerned with overseas publicity entirely, and there will be no interference with the Press in this country by the Department.
  Mr. T. Johnston: Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate to the House what previous experience, if any, Lord Perth has had in matters of Press publicity which warrant His Majesty's Government giving him this important post?
  The Prime Minister: Lord Perth was, of course, Secretary-General of the League of Nations, and I think that in that capacity he had a great deal of experience in connection with publicity. He also has had a great number of contacts with the representatives of different foreign countries.
  Mr. Benn: Has not Lord Perth been consistently favourable to Fascist countries?
  Sir William Davison: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the immense sums, estimated by some people at £20,000,000 a year, which have been spent by Germany recently in all forms of propaganda? Does he not think that this is a very serious danger, and that these statements— many of them inaccurate— which are being made by Germany should be met now?
  Mr. E. Smith: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that the people of this country can have no confidence in the impartiality of Lord Perth?
  Mr. Greenwood: Is it the intention, in establishing this nucleus of a Department, that whoever may be the titular head of it shall be effectively supported by competent and experienced journalists who understand sound publicity?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think it is necessary to associate journalists directly with a Department of the Foreign Office. Of course, there must be intimate touch between the Department and the journalistic profession.
  Sir Archibald Sinclair: When the Prime Minister says that the work of the British Council is to be co-ordinated with that of other bodies by this new Department, does that mean that the British Council will be subordinate to, and to some extent controlled by, this new Department of the Foreign Office?
  The Prime Minister: The work of the British Council is already controlled by the Foreign Office to some extent, and what further developments in the relation between them may be necessary will, I think, be worked out when the Department is set up.
  Sir A. Sinclair: Has the chairman of the British Council been consulted about this?
  The Prime Minister: I should think so.
  Several Hon. Members—
  Mr. Speaker: I think we ought to get on.

  HONOURS LISTS (INFORMATION).
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of arranging that in connection with future Honours Lists there shall be published in addition to particulars of public service, information as to donations to party funds for the previous 10 years?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I am satisfied that the safeguards provided by the Honours (Prevention of Abuses) Act, 1925, and by the observance of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Honours (Cmd. 1789 of 1922) are fully-adequate.
  Mr. Mander: While appreciating that many Honours conferred are richly deserved, does the Prime Minister not think the time has come to put an end to what is commonly known as the"sale" of Honours.
  The Prime Minister: I think that a stop has been put to it.
  Mr. Stevens: Can the Prime Minister say why this information should not be given? Can I have an answer to my question, which I think is a legitimate one?

  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS:
  Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Health the number of persons who consstitute the appeals tribunal under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Pensions Acts; where the tribunal meets; and what opportunity the appellants have of putting their case personally before the tribunal?
  Mr. Elliot: An appeal under the Contributory Pensions Acts is determined by one or more referees selected from a panel of 10in England and Wales and from a panel of three in Scotland. The referees normally meet in London or Edinburgh, as the case may be, but where in their opinion an oral hearing is necessary, regard is had to the convenience of the appellant in fixing the place of the hearing. The appellant is always invited to attend an oral hearing in person, and any reasonable expenses he may incur in so doing are refunded to him.
  Mr. Buchanan: Regarding the Edinburgh meetings, could not the right hon. Gentleman arrange that a date might be fixed for Glasgow, considering the huge population there is in the vicinity of Glasgow?
  Mr. Elliot: I will convey that suggestion to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a woman who reached the age of 65 years on 22nd November, 1938, has been refused an old age pension, although her husband is 68 years of age and in receipt of the pension and they have been married since 29th December, 1900; and why the payment of this pension was refused?
  Mr. Elliot: I am aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers. The applicant's claim to a contributory old age pension was rejected because she was not shown to have been the legal, wife of the man on whose insurance her claim was based nor had she herself the necessary insurance qualifications. The rejection of her claim has been upheld by the referees, whose decision is by law made final and conclusive.
  Mr. Batey: As this woman has been married to her present husband for 39 years, should it not be necessary, in order to take away this pension, to prove that the first husband was alive 39 years ago.
  Mr. Elliot: These matters come to the court of referees, who examine these points. As the hon. Member knows, I have been in correspondence with them over this point. The death of the first husband has not been established.
  Mr. Batey: This woman has been married to her present husband 39 years.

  1505
  Should not the Ministry have to prove that the first husband was not dead when the second marriage took place 39 years ago?
  Mr. Elliot: The Ministry has to make sure that the marriage was legal, otherwise there is no authority to pay the pension.
  Mr. Buchanan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if this woman was not married to this second man she would be guilty of bigamy, and liable to be prosecuted? Is not the mere fact that no proceedings have been taken, despite the publicity given to the matter, sufficient evidence that her first husband was dead when the second marriage took place?
  Mr. Elliot: The Ministry, naturally, take every possible step to assist the pensioner in such cases, but the fact is that I cannot go outside the Act of Parliament. The Statute lays down what my duties are. I have no more power than any other Member of this House to go beyond the terms of the Statute.
  Mr. Batey: I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
  Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Health the number of appeals under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Pensions Acts during the last 10 years; the number of appeals that have been allowed; and the number refused?
  Mr. Elliot: During the 10 years ended 31st December last, 104,353 appeals under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Acts, 1925 to 1936, were decided by the referees, 12,432 of which were allowed and 91,921 disallowed.
  Mr. Batey: Twelve thousand allowed, and 91,000 disallowed. Does that no show that the appeals tribunal is simply a one-way street? What is the use of it?
  Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Health how many persons in receipt of old age pensions and in receipt of pensions under the Old Age, Widows' and Orphans' Pensions (Contributory) Acts, are in receipt of additional financial assistance from the public assistance committee in the city of Liverpool; and what is the cost per annum to the ratepayers of the city?
  Mr. Elliot: During the week ended 11th March last the number of old age pensioners under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1936, and the Widows, Orphans and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1936, who were in receipt of outdoor relief in the city of Liverpool was 7,564. The estimated annual cost of outdoor relief to old age pensioners and their dependants falling to be met out of rates and the Block Grants is £119.393. Corresponding particulars in respect of widow pensioners are not available.
  Mr. Kirby: I suppose that it is not the slightest good asking the right hon. Gentleman when the Government are going to increase the pension allowances of these poor people and keep them off the rates?

  CIVIL DEFENCE.

    EVACUATION.
    Mrs. Tateasked the Minister of Health what number of children it is estimated will be evacuated to the villages of Peasedown and Mells, in Somerset, in the event of war?
    Mr. Elliot: It has been left to the local authority to distribute between the different parts of their area the number of evacuated persons to be transferred to the area as a whole. The numbers of evacuated persons transferable under the present railway arrangements to the rural districts of Bathavon and Frome are approximately 4,000 and 1,800 respectively. Roughly half the total number in each case will consist of school children, the remainder being children below school age with their mothers or other adults responsible for looking after them.
    Mrs. Tate: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every summer there is an acute shortage of water in the villages of Peasedown and Mells, that I am informed that no fewer than 200 children are proposed to be evacuated to Mells, and before he allows a single child to be evacuated to these villages, will he make sure that there is an adequate supply of water, or is he just going to trust to the Germans to bring it with them?
    Mr. Elliot: It would be very rash in those circumstances for the local authority to undertake a large number of cases of billeting in these two villages, and I

    1507
    take it that the local authorities will themselves be better aware of the position than anyone else.
    Mrs. Tate: Will some arrangement with regard to the appalling shortage of water in those villages be made before children are evacuated there?
    Mr. Elliot: The local authority, naturally, will take into account an area where there is a shortage of water in the billeting of children.
    Mr. De la Bère: Why should there be a shortage of water?

    NURSING AUXILIARIES.
    Mr. Viantasked the Minister of Health whether the remuneration of £ 2 per week for nursing auxiliaries for whole-time service applies to those living in hospital or at home?
    Mr. Elliot: The remuneration referred to is on a non-resident basis and would be subject to a suitable deduction where board and lodging are provided.

    HOUSING (TENDERS, DERBY).
    Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the trend of building material prices since tenders were last asked for, he anticipates, when insisting on their asking for new tenders, that the authorities of the county borough of Derby could now obtain lower tenders for the construction of new houses on the Roe Farm and Radford Street sites without reducing the size and quality of the houses?
    Mr. Elliot: I am advised that it is not unreasonable to hope that fresh tendering now would produce satisfactory tenders lower than the direct labour tender without reduction in the size or the quality of the houses.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Derby authorities have given consideration to this matter for the last 18 months, that they are absolutely convinced that they could get lower tenders, that there is a very serious housing shortage in that town, and that there has been no new housing scheme begun during the last 18 months?
    Mr. Elliot: I think that the hon. Member is not fully informed as to the latest
    1508
    figures from the local authority. A letter has been received from the town clerk stating that the housing committee have decided to recommend the council to invite tenders for these contracts.

    TEACHERS' PENSIONS (ESSEX).
    Lieut.-Colonel Macnamaraasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the grievance from which 70 teachers in Essex are suffering in connection with their pensions, and whether he will take power to grant exemption to the county council in certain very hard cases?
    Mr. Elliot: I am aware of the position of supplementary teachers in non-provided schools under the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937. I have recently received representations on this matter which will receive my careful consideration, in the event of opportunity occurring for amending legislation to deal with points of difficulty which may well be revealed in the working of a complex measure of this character.
    Mr. Maxwell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this matter is affecting people all over the country and that it is arousing considerable feeling?
    Mr. Elliot: I have undertaken to give the matter my careful consideration.

    INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENT, TIENTSIN (SITUATION).
    Mr. Greenwoodasked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to make any statement regarding the situation in Tientsin
    The Prime Minister:The Japanese blockade of the British Concession at Tientsin began at 6 a.m. on 14th June. British subjects and other foreigners are being detained and searched at the barriers. I understand that food supplies are being allowed into the Concession, but there would appear to be a tendency for prices to rise. There has also been interference with British shipping up and down the river. The British military authorities have taken all precautions possible for the maintenance of order, and His Majesty's Ship '' Lowestoft'' is moored alongside the Bund of the British Concession.

    1509
    His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo has made full representations to the Japanese Minister for Foreign Affairs and has been instructed to point out the danger of provocative action by local Japanese which might lead to regretable incidents. Sir R. Craigie has further drawn attention to the serious implications of the statement made by the Japanese military spokesman at Tientsin to the effect that the questions at issue cannot now be settled by the handing over of the accused men, but that the objective of the blockade is to secure a much wider form of co-operation from the British authorities in North China. It is clear that if this statement represents the views of the authorities in Tokyo, the Japanese are using the incident to make demands far wider and more far-reaching than the question of the handing over of the four men. Such demands would raise important questions of policy, in which other great Powers are concerned no less than this country, and the closest touch is being maintained with the French and American Governments. In the meantime His Majesty's Government are considering the situation created by the refusal of the Japanese to accept their proposal for a committee of inquiry and by the continuance of the blockade of the Concession.
    Mr. Arthur Henderson: In view of the apparent intention of the Japanese Government to compel His Majesty's Government to adopt a policy contrary to the principles of the Nine-Power Treaty, may I ask whether His Majesty's Government intend to invoke Article 7 of that Treaty, which provides for full consultation between the signatories of the Treaty when a situation arises which is contrary to the principles of the Treaty?
    The Prime Minister: The situation is obviously a grave one. His Majesty's Government are considering it in all its aspects, and I am not prepared at this moment to say what action they may decide to take.
    Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in considering the measures to be taken, he will consider the desirability of giving notice to the Japanese Government that, if the blockade is not raised within 24 hours, the Anglo-Japanese Agreement of 1911 will be denounced forthwith?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think I can add anything to the statement which I have made.
    Mr. Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability, in order to emphasise the international aspect of this matter in addition to the British, of calling a special meeting of the Council of the League of Nations to consider what steps can be taken? May I ask for an answer to that question?
    The Prime Minister: I cannot say what action His Majesty's Government may decide to take.
    Mr. Herbert Morrison: Is the Prime Minister of the opinion that this grave situation is the direct result of the policy pursued by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was Foreign Secretary?
    Mr. Bellenger: In view of the anxiety for the safety of the people there, may I ask whether the Prime Minister has any information that the British residents have an ample supply of food, including fresh vegetables?
    The Prime Minister: I have given the House all the information I have.

    ARMAMENTS MANUFACTURE (LIMITATION OF PROFITS).
    Mr. Greenwoodasked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to make any further statement about the limitation of armament profits?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. The House will recall that on 26th April, when I announced the proposal of the Government to introduce a measure of compulsory military training, I indicated that it was also intended to take further steps to limit the profits of firms mainly engaged on the rearmament programme. The provisions contained in the Ministry of Supply Bill, together with the ordinary contracts procedure, revised as it has been from time to time to take account of changing conditions, go far in the direction of preventing excessive profits. The Government feel, however, that here may be cases where, in particular by reason of large increases of turnover, further measures of limitation are called for, and it is, therefore, proposed to include in the Finance Bill provisions for

    1511
    a tax on concerns engaged on a large scale on armament work in respect of any excess profits arising from that work. These provisions will require to be founded upon a Ways and Means Resolution which it is hoped to table on Monday.
    Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that this very substantial principle of controversy is being included in the Finance Bill, additional time will be given for the consideration of the Bill, and, as the proposals are somewhat complicated, whether an explanatory memorandum will be published to hon. Members before the discussion takes place?
    The Prime Minister: In reply to the first supplementary, I think we must take account of the fact that as new, and perhaps controversial, matter is being introduced by this new Clause further time may be required. In regard to the second part of the question, my right hon. Friend hopes to present an explanatory memorandum.
    Mr. A. V. Alexander: The right hon. Gentleman said that the new proposals were to deal with businesses engaged on a large scale. Does that mean that the proposals will not include all subcontractors?
    The Prime Minister: It means that the Clause will not apply to cases where the amount of orders is only small.
    Sir A. Sinclair: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Resolution and the White Paper will be available— to-day or to-morrow?
    The Prime Minister: I said that the Ways and Means Resolution will be tabled on Monday.
    Mr. Peat: May I ask the Prime Minister whether before arriving at any excess profits he will take into consideration the various expenditure which industries will have to undertake to provide the necessary plant and machinery for carrying out the orders?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member will realise that that is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Gallacher: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will seriously consider the reintroduction of the Excess Profits Duty?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the Prime Minister how far he proposes to go to-night in the event of the Eleven o'Clock Rule being suspended, and whether he will state the business for next week?
The Prime Minister: The suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule is being moved in order to obtain the Second Reading of the Agricultural Development Bill, and the Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
The business of the House for next week will be:
Monday and Tuesday— Committee stage of the Ministry of Supply Bill.
Wednesday— Consideration of the draft Orders in Council proposed to be made under the Military Training Act and the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Act.
Thursday— First day of the Committee stage of the Finance Bill.
Friday— Report and Third Reading of the Ministry of Supply Bill.
During the week it is hoped to make progress with other business, including the Motion relating to the National Memorial to His late Majesty King George V; outstanding Import Duties Orders No. 4 and Substitution Order No. 2 and the Processed Milk (Import Regulation) Order.
Mr. Tinker: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, when he is reviewing the business of the House, he will consider an appeal made by Members from all sides to consider the question of old age pensions? It is a grave social problem, and I think it is worth the consideration of the House.
Motion made, and Question put."
That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."— [The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 125.

Division No. 174.]

AYES.

[3.59 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Raikes, H. V. A. M

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Rankin, Sir R.

Albery, Sir Irving

Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.

Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

Apsley, Lord

Hambro, A. V.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Assheton, R.

Hammersley, S. S.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Barrie, Sir C. C.

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Baxter, A. Beverley

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Rosbotham, Sir T.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm h)

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Ross, Major Sir R.D. (Londonderry)

Beechman, N. A.

Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Beit, Sir A. L.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Rowlands, G.

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Herbert, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Monmouth)

Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

Bernays, R. H.

Higgs, W. F.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Russell, Sir Alexander

Blaker, Sir R.

Hogg, Hon. Q. MoG.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Bossom, A. C.

Holdsworth, H.

Salmon, Sir I.

Boulton, W. W.

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Salt, E. W.

Brass, Sir W.

Hunter, T.

Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Jennings, R.

Samuel, M. R. A.

Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

Joel, D. J. B.

Sandys, E. D.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Schuster, Sir G. E.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Kerr, Sir J. Graham (Scottish Univ.)

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

Kimball, L.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Butler, Rt. Hon. R, A.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Smithers, Sir W.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Leech, Sir J. W.

Snadden, W. McN.

Carver, Major W. H.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

Cary, R. A.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Levy, T.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Lewis, O.

Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Liddall, W. S.

Spens, W. P.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Lindsay, K. M.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

Channon, H.

Lipson, D. L.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Little, J.

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Llewellin, Colonel J. J.

Storey, S.

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Stourton, Major Hon. J.J.

Colfox, Major Sir W. P.

Loftus, P. C.

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Colville, Rt. Hon. John

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

MoKie, J. H.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Cox, H. B. Trevor

Maonamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R. J.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

Maoquisten, F. A.

Tate, Mavis C.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Makins, Brigadier-Central Sir Ernest

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Culverwell, C. T.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M

Thomas, J. P. L.

Davison, Sir W. H.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon H. D. R.

Thorneyoroft, G. E. P.

De la Bère, R.

Markham, S. F.

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Denville, Alfred

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Touche, G. C.

Donner, P. W.

Medlicott F.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.

Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Drewe, C.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Turton, R. H.

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Wakefield, W. W.

Duggan, H. J.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Eastwood, J. F.

Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Eckersley, P. T.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Warrender, Sir V.

Ellis, Sir Q.

Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H

Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie

Emery, J. F.

Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Wells, Sir Sydney

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Everard, Sir William Lindsay

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Fildes, Sir H.

Patrick, C. M.

Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Fleming, E. L.

Peake, O.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Furness, S. N.

Peat, C. U.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

Peters, Dr. S, J.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Goldie, N. B.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Gower, Sir R. V.

Pilkington, R.

Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C

Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R.

Ponsonby, Cot, C. E.

York, C.

Granville, E. L.

Procter, Major H. A.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Radford, E. A.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Captain Dugdale and Mr. Munro.

NOES.

Acland, R. T. D.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Beaumont, H. (Batley)

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Banfield, J. W.

Bellenger, F J.

Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

Barnes, A. J.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Adamson, W. M.

Batey, J.

Broad, F. A.

1514

1515

Bromfield, W.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Poole, C. C.

Buchanan, G.

Hayday, A.

Price, M. P.

Burke, W. A.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Quibell, D. J. K.

Cape, T.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Charleton, H. C.

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Riley, B.

Chater, D.

Hopkin, D.

Ritson, J.

Cluse, W. S.

Jagger, J.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Cocks, F. S.

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Sanders W. S.

Collindridge, F.

John, W.

Seely, Sir H. M

Cove, W. G.

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Sexton, T. M.

Daggar, G.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Shinwell, E.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Kirby, B. V.

Silkin, L.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Silverman, S. S.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lathan, G.

Sinclair. Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Day, H.

Lawson, J. J.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Dobbie, W.

Leach, W.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Lee, F.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Ede, J. C.

Leonard, W.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Leslie, J. R.

Sorensen, R. W.

Edwards, Sir C. (Badwellty)

Lunn, W.

Stephen, C.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

McEntee, V. La T.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N)

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

McGhee, H. G.

Thorne, W.

Frankel, D.

MacLaren, A.

Thurtle, E.

Gallacher, W.

Maclean, N.

Tinker, J. J.

Gardner, B. W.

Mander, G. le M.

Viant, S. P.

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v'n)

Marshall, F.

Walkden, A. G.

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Mathers, G.

Walker, J.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Maxton, J.

Watkins, F. C.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Milner, Major J.

Westwood, J.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Montague, F.

White, H. Graham

Grenfell, D. R.

Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Morrison, Rt.' Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Griffiths. G. A. (Hemsworth)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Owen, Major G.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

Paling, W.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Parkinson, J. A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Pearson, A.

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.

Hardie, Agnes

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
Mr. Mander: May I call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to a matter arising out of Questions. This is the third successive Thursday on which questions to the Home Secretary have not been reached, and I ask you to be good enough to consider whether some system of rotation cannot be devised by which one would have an opportunity of questioning the Home Secretary from time to time?
Mr. Speaker: The remedy appears to be perfectly simple. We should get through questions quicker.
Mr. Thorne: May I ask the Prime Minister whether when he has a long statement to make he will consider making it at the end of Questions?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Member will notice that I have had two long statements to make to-day, and in those circumstances I thought it better to make the first statement earlier.
Mr. J. J. Davidson: Is it not your considered opinion, Mr. Speaker, that if the answers given by Ministers were more
1516
satisfactory, there would be fewer sup-plementaries?

COTTON INDUSTRY (REORGANISATION) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill I59.]
Minutes of Proceedings to be printed. [No. 133.]

SOLICITORS BILL [Lords]
Ordered, That so much of the Lords Message [13th June] as relates to the time and place of meeting of the Committee be now considered. —[Mr. James Stuart]
So much of the Lords Message considered accordingly.
Ordered, That the Committee appointed by this House do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships —. [Mr. James Stuart.]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE C.
  Colonel Gretton reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C: Sir Cyril Entwistle; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Errington.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

BILLS REPORTED.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (SWAFFHAM WATER) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BURNHAM AND DISTRICT WATER) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (SLOUGH) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HEMEL HEMPSTEAD WATER) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HEYWOOD AND MIDDLETON WATER BOARD) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (OXFORD) BILL.
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (CONGLETON) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (MARGATE) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (MATLOCK) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
  NORTH WEST MIDLANDS JOINT ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

  DROITWICH CANALS (ABANDONMENT) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).
  Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.

  SAINT PETER'S CHAPEL STOCKPORT BILL [Lords].
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).
  Bill to be read the Third time; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to, —
  Sea Fisheries Provisional Order (Tollesbury and West Mersea) Bill, without Amendment.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled," An Act to remove doubts as to the validity of certain marriages."[Marriages Validity Bill [Lords.]
  And also a Bill, intituled,"An Act to confer further powers upon the London County Council and other authorities; and for other purposes."[London County Council (General Powers) Bill [Lords.]

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [Lords].
  Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  4.8 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Colonel Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith): I beg to move,
  "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  I think the House will agree that the Bill covers so wide and so varied a field that it may well give Members an opportunity to-day of examining our agricultural policy as a whole. If possible I would be glad if the House had that opportunity, and for my own part I welcome the chance of hearing the different points of view expressed by Members on both sides of the House. I would like to make a small wager, it it is appropriate to do so to-day, that those views will be as variegated as are the contents of the Bill itself. When I first had the honour to address the House as Minister of Agriculture I suggested that, while it was not difficult to-day to get agreement as to the desirability, nay the necessity, of maintaining our agriculture in a state of prosperity, it is not quite so easy to get that same measure of agreement as to the right methods to apply in order to create conditions which will make possible the desired agricultural prosperity —which will make it possible for it to be attained and for it to be maintained. I confess that four months of office has not led me to alter that opinion.
  There is, I think, also another thing on which there is universal agreement now, and that is that the prosperity of the agricultural industry is just as much the concern of those engaged in urban industries, in trade and commerce, as it is the concern of the fanner himself, and that when farming is in a state of depression it reacts adversely on the economic life of the nation as a whole. I think we can also get agreement on what constitutes or what should constitute a prosperous agriculture: First of all that the farmer should receive a fair remuneration for the produce which he sells, such fair remuneration as will enable the farm worker to receive wages and enjoy living and working conditions as favourable as those enjoyed by similar workers in urban industries;
  1556
  and, thirdly, that the land should be properly used, should be used to produce the maximum quantity of food without detriment to the health and the fertility of the soil. It is only too clear that these conditions are by no means entirely fulfilled to-day. Since coming to office I have had the benefit of reading quite a lot of books which have recently been written on agricultural policy, and of the authors, in making out a case for agriculture, in showing the symptoms of agricultural depression, all or nearly all point to the same thing—they point to the reduction of our arable acreage and the decline in the numbers engaged in agriculture, the disparity in wages and conditions of life in town and country, and the deterioration of much of our land and many of our farm buildings in certain districts.
  The diagnosis of the ills of agriculture is generally upon the same lines, and up to this point we are all in more or less complete agreement. It is when we come to the question of how to cure the disease that the differences arise. As I have said, dozens of books have recently been written on the subject. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) himself has written a most arresting book on this very subject. I am not sure that the views which he holds, or those which he held in 1935, are altogether consistent with the views which have been set out by another member of his party, Lord Addison, or indeed are absolutely on all fours with the official policy of" Your Britain No. 3." But if that were not so, it would show not necessarily that the hon. Member for Don Valley was wrong, but only the complexities that face anyone dealing with agriculture.
  But, of course, these books are not my only means of getting advice. There is another very fruitful source, and that is our national newspapers. They are very generous in their advice to me, not to say in their exhortations, and I think it is of more than passing interest that the people of this country should be so concerned with agriculture and its problems that all the great dailies do in fact maintain agricultural correspondents, very active correspondents, very diligent correspondents, as I have every reason to know. The hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. ]. Morgan) is a very good example of one of those correspondents. So while, if I want to refresh my memory of the views of the

  1557
  hon. Member for Don Valley I must turn to his book, I get sage advice every week from his near neighbour the hon. Member for Doncaster in the pages of the" Daily Herald." I am not absolutely certain whether the sentiments which are current in Doncaster actually find a true echo throughout the whole valley of the Don. The Press is no more unanimous in its views than are the authors of these varied books which I have mentioned, because not only does one differ from another in his approach to the problem, but on occasion I have found very marked discrepancies in the same newspaper, often on the same day, between the views of the agricultural correspondent and the advice which is offered by the leader writer and by that formidable gentleman the city editor.
  There is, in fact, any amount of argument. But, of course, argument alone is not going to solve our problem. While our pundits battle over their rival theories, agriculture cries out for immediate help. It was some 50 years ago that Lord Salisbury met a deputation of agriculturalists, and that deputation put up exactly the same sort of story as was put up to me the other day by a deputation of those engaged in agriculture; and Lord Salisbury gave it as his opinion that what was needed was not professions but acts. No one is going to complain that the National Government have not given to agriculture a certain number of Acts.
  Here we have a Bill which, I hope, will very shortly become an Act, and a useful Act in both senses of the word. In essence the problem can be easily stated. It is how to secure for home producers a reasonable return for the goods which they produce. It is impossible to deny that everything depends upon that, and when the farmers press that claim, it is with no selfish and no narrow aim. I know from personal experience that the vast majority of farmers desire pasionately to do their duty by their land and by their employés, but until they get a reasonable return for their produce and a measure of security against violent fluctuations in that return, they can neither improve the workers' conditions, as we would like to see them improved, nor can they treat the land in the way in which it should be treated.
  If it were only in this country that that condition of things existed, then the
  1558
  public might be justified in thinking that there was- some lack of ability on the part of our farmers to adapt themselves to meet present conditions which was contributing to their downfall; but it is a fact that it is not only in this country, but in nearly every country in the world, that primary producers are faced with much the same difficulties as face our agriculture to-day. I think it is a strange commentary and a sad commentary on the present state of our civilisation that, in the vast majority of countries, there is evidence of rural depression and rural depopulation; so much so that in nearly every country Governments have felt obliged to intervene on behalf of their farmers in some way or other, by giving subsidies, by raising tariffs, by controlling imports, by maintaining internal prices above the level of world market prices, or by some combination of these methods. The result has been a serious contraction of world trade in foodstuffs, and this has meant a formidable concentration of exports on the United Kingdom, which is the one remaining relatively free market.
  I will give one or two examples of this, because it is important to my argument. Let me take, first, the imports of wheat and flour. Imports of wheat and flour into European importing countries, other than the United Kingdom, fell by two-thirds between 1928–29 and 1935–36, and they remained in 1938–39 less than half what they were ten years before. The export of butter to the same range of countries fell by nearly one-half between 1929 and 1933, and in 1937 was still more than one-third below the level of 1929. Imports of veal and beef have fallen almost continuously since 1925. At the lowest point, in 1935, they showed a reduction of nearly 90 per cent. Let me deal with two countries which should be great potential consuming countries, Germany and Italy. Imports of all classes of foodstuffs into Germany declined by 36 per cent, between 1929 and 1936, and Italian imports fell by 60 per cent. between 1925 and 1936.
  All this has had grave consequences for the primary producers in the exporting countries, and produced equally grave difficulties for our own farmers, inasmuch as there has been a growing dependency by those countries on the British market, and consequently there has been an unbearable strain upon the existing absorptive capacity of this country. In face of

  1559
  these difficulties, it is abundantly clear to me that the United Kingdom fanners cannot carry on without adequate assistance from the State, just as other great industries have required and received that assistance necessary to enable them to carry on. The Government cannot be, and indeed have not been, indifferent to the plight of those engaged in agriculture. We have a real sense of our duty to maintain our land in good heart and our country people in a state of well being, and to bring about a better, and lasting balance between our urban and rural activities. That duty we intend to carry out.
  Unhappily for any Minister of Agriculture, there is no single panacea for our agricultural problems, although, of course, many have been propounded. Surely, if it were possible to find some single magical formula which would put everything right, any Minister of Agriculture and any Government would be only too ready to grasp that opportunity. But I myself have been looking for a panacea in another capacity for a long time, and I am perfectly convinced that our agricultural enterprise is such a complex thing, and its conditions are so diversified, that under existing conditions no single specific is capable of solving the problems of all the different branches of the industry. We must seek to apply to each branch the kind of assistance best suited to its particular needs. This is what the Government have been trying to do for the past seven years, since the onset of that great depression which led to the abandonment of our Free Trade system and our first efforts to protect agriculture from the shock of world conditions.
  It is true that the various kinds of assistance have met with various degrees of success, but there can be no doubt whatever that, taking a broad view up to 1937, they had been of material assistance not only to agriculture but to the whole country. During that time, up to 1937, the index prices for producers had risen by some 17 per cent., and wages had risen by 13 per cent. in the same period. But in 1938, the industry suffered a new setback, and although wage rates actually continued to rise, branches of the industry, such as sheep, oats and barley, which had managed, however battered they might be, to sur-
  1560
  vive the storms of the previous six years, did find themselves in very dire straits.
  It was to deal with this new crisis that the Government undertook a review in December last, first through an Inter-Departmental Committee, and later in consultation with the National Farmers' Unions and bodies representative both of the workers and the landowners. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the spirit in which those discussions were carried out and the helpful co-operation which all the bodies that took part in them gave to me. The Bill to which I am asking the House to give a Second Reading today is, in the main, the first fruits of that review. It does not represent a new departure of policy, but rather a development and fulfilment of the policy which was started by my predecessors. Its aim is to close the gaps in the existing series of Measures and to complete the structure of organised protection of the British agricultural producer which we have been gradually building up.
  The case for State assistance to agriculture rests, I think, on the fact that, unlike other industries, the agricultural industry, when it is faced with a serious and unexpected fall in the price of one of its vital products, cannot quickly adjust itself to meet new conditions. The farmer cannot suddenly stop producing a particular commodity until the price returns to a remunerative level. In the interest of his land, his operations have got to go on; his fixed charges continue, and he must still pay the wages of his workers. Unlike those in other industries, he cannot reduce his output and cut down the costs by standing off his employés. The farmer himself, in fact, bears nearly the whole burden of a sudden fall in prices; and if we do conceive it to be, as I believe we do, a national duty to maintain the efficiency of our land, in the same way as we conceive it to be our duty to maintain the efficiency of other lines of defence, then surely the House must agree that the peculiar position of agriculture in this respect does justify a measure of assistance being given to the farmer in order to enable him to fulfil his duty to the land and to insure him against losses on any single one of his vital commodities so serious as to jeopardise his economic: position and the fertility of his land.
  Our policy, as I think is clear to the House, depends upon three constitu-

  1561
  ents; first of all, the regulation of the supplies of imports from overseas; seconly, price insurance; and thirdly, the encouragement of efficiency measures. I will deal with them in that order, taking first of all the regulation of supplies. As I have indicated, that has become essential not only for the protection of our own farmers from the effects of unequal competition from overseas, but as I believe, and as I think the House will agree, in the interests of the whole world. For many years we have enjoyed an abundance of cheap food brought to this country from all the ends of the earth, and there is no question that that has been an important factor in the development of our great industrial and commercial system, and undoubtedly also it has been a means of. improving the standard of living of our people. I can assure the House that in all that the Government seek to do, it will be, as it always has been, our policy that the market should be fully supplied and that its consumers should have all that they desire.
  Mr. A. V. Alexander: As in the case of bacon.
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: That is another question. One point about this—and it applies also to bacon—is that it will be at the lowest possible price consistent with ensuring a fair return to the producer, a fair return which the producer of bacon, even in Denmark, was not getting. But we have to recognise that this cheap food has really been bought at a very heavy cost. To my mind, there is all the difference in the world between satisfying the needs of our people and flooding the market with unregulated supplies which, in fact, over-strain its absorptive capacity and inevitably bring about a collapse of prices. That is what has happened in the past.
  I have already argued that uneconomic prices for primary commodities are detrimental to trade and commerce generally and react adversely on the whole condition of our people. I think that hon. Members opposite do agree with me in that, and are not inclined to insist on providing cheap food no matter what the consequences may be. It is true that the methods of supply regulation which they advocate differ from ours, but on the need for regulation I do not think there is any difference. But I quite recognise that any one who talks in terms of the regulation
  1562
  of imports is immediately open to the accusation that he is going to produce an artificial shortage with the desire to force up prices. I have no doubt that hon. Gentlemen opposite had to meet that criticism when they were advocating their own policy of import boards.
  There is one point about which I think the House would like me to speak for a moment or two, for it has a direct bearing on the whole of the philosophy behind our approach to the subject. That is the fear which we have lest there may be some great difficulty in the future unless there is a regulation of supplies to this country. I do not think I could put the matter better than it was put recently at a meeting of the National Nutrition Conference which was organised by the British Medical Association. There they had a very eminent authority on soil science, and he used these important words:
  " There are forces at work which will compel a restriction of output, at least for export, from those countries which now supply us with most of our food, however perfectly we may devise an economic and distributing system. For the soil has been overworked, and is now demanding a rest with an insistance that overrides all economic and nutritional theories. The forces at work can be seen in erosion and exhaustion of the land which are now becoming national menaces in the United States, Canada, South Africa and Australia, all countries that can boast of having attained very high standards of living at the expense of the soil."
  This view is supported by no less an authority than Professor Scott Watson, who says:
  "There is widespread deterioration of the world's soils especially during the last 60 or 70 years. During the last 60 years the consumer has enjoyed the benefit of relatively abundant food at low prices. In part this cheap food has been achieved as a result of the progress of farming, but in considerable part it has been obtained at the cost of depleting the fertility of the world soils."
  In those circumstances it seems clear to me that supply regulation is not a matter of scarcity economics and the forcing up of prices in order to put money into the farmers' pockets, but it is a question of rational control and the avoidance of waste and reckless exploitation. I believe that that is a point which deserves the most serious consideration from all parties, and it is certainly one which reinforces our desire to maintain the fertility of our own soil. That being so, it seems to me to be clear that it is in the interests of consumers and producers in all countries that a coordinated effort

  1563
  should be made to employ our joint resources wisely. For this reason the Government have expressed their preference for co-operation among producers in this respect instead of compulsory regulation by Governments, and they hope and believe that the Governments of all countries which are concerned with supplying food to this market will accept this point of view. This form of cooperation is at present taking shape through commodity councils which are composed of representative producers of all the most important nations which supply our markets with the various products. That is a plan which has been endorsed by the farmers of the Empire themselves, and it is one which has received also the blessing of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and His Majesty's Government in Australia. The type of machinery envisaged has already been put into operation for beef and veal, and for apples; it was recently applied to mutton and lamb, and we hope very soon that it will be working in connection with processed milk.
  Our measures in this Bill to assist the sheep industry certainly provide only for price insurance, but it must be remembered that it is introduced as a complement to the system of supply regulation which is now in force. Hon. Members will recall the fact that recently, in order to steady the market, a reduction of 10 per cent. was made in imports of mutton and lamb from foreign countries and a cut of 3 per cent. in the shipments from Australia and New Zealand this year. It is true that that adjustment was not brought about through the operation of the commodity council concerned, and that the Government had to intervene in that respect, but we hope that for the future it will be unnecessary for the Government to intervene and that the Empire Meat Council will continue to regulate supplies and to secure that stability of prices which is essential to the producers who supply our needs. I myself do not believe there is the slightest fear of undue restriction under a system such as this, seeing that it will be in the interests of each and every county to sell as much of its produce as it possibly can, but it will be the function of the councils as a whole to see that undue fluctuations of supplies and consequently of prices are as far as
  1564
  possible eliminated, and in effect that the resources of the supplying countries are economically employed, having due regard to the needs of our home market and also to our own national requirements from our own soil. So much for the type of supply regulation which the Government hope to develop.
  Now I come to the question of price insurance. While we hope that the existence of commodity councils will be effective in securing to producers in our own country, and indeed to all those concerned with supplying our markets, a reasonable return for their produce, nevertheless, if we are to ensure stability of prices for all the staple commodities of our farms, it may well be that a second line of defence will be needed, and it is our intention to supply this by means of what is known as price insurance. I realise that the expression" price insurance" means different things to different people, and I do not propose to take up the time of the House in discussing the various interpretations which have been put upon it, but I think I owe it to hon. Members to explain exactly what the Government intend by price insurance and to remove any possible grounds of misunderstanding. The most common and certainly the most important difference in the interpretation of this phrase" price insurance" is the suggestion that it should mean guaranteeing profitable prices for all farm produce. Certain agricultural bodies have put that interpretation upon it, and I think the party opposite hold out the promise that when they are returned to office, they will guarantee profitable prices to producers based on the costs of production. I shall be very interested to see what will happen if ever they are called upon to fulfil that promise, because I think they will find that there are almost insuperable practical difficulties in the way of relating price insurance to farmers' profits.
  It is true that our existing information about costs of production is rather sketchy, although we are constantly getting more and more information on this subject. I am sure hon. Members will agree with me that reliable conclusions can only be obtained over a long period of years to cover all the different seasonal variations, and over a large number of farms, in order to be reasonably representative of the different conditions up and down the country. This

  1565
  is a costly and a laborious business, and if it is made a condition precedent to the granting of assistance, then I think there will be a very great delay in the provision of the assistance which is needed now. Moreover, as this is in the Opposition Amendment, I think I might deal with it so far as to say that even if the necessary information were readily available, I think it would be almost impossible to use it as a basis to determine a standard level of remuneration which would be fairly applicable to the country as a whole.
  Mr. Alexander: Why does not the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry go at least as far as the Scottish Department and have a regular inquiry into the profits of agriculture in his area, with details?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: Let me deal with it in my own way. There has been a thorough investigation into the cost of milk, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, and that is the only product in which costing investigations have gone very far. That investigation has shown that the cost of production varies to an astonishing extent. The extreme figures are 4.3d. and 15.7d. per gallon, and how you are going to get a common figure there, honestly, I do not know. We have not set out to guarantee to all farmers, with the assistance of State funds, a profit on all they produce at all times and under all circumstances. Indeed, farmers themselves recognise that such a request would not be reasonable and that even if under certain circumstances that position could be established, it would be a unique position among all industries and one which they could hardly expect to last. What everyone is seeking is to achieve a permanent policy and not one that is in constant danger of being reversed. In their official statement the farmers themselves go no further than to ask that they should be insured against unduly low price levels, on the assumption, and I think the very proper assumption, that concurrently with the policy of price insurance the Government will take such steps as lie in their power to create a system of supply regulation capable of preventing sudden and abnormal falls in prices. It is not our intention therefore, to take each and every commodity separately and to say," We will guarantee you a profit on that commodity," because, after all, British farming is pre-eminently mixed farming, and
  1566
  the average farmer judges his results, not on whether he has gained or lost on any particular commodity over the year, but on how his farm has done as a whole. What we want to do is to safeguard the farmer from losses on any of his staple commodities such as would upset the balance of his enterprise and endanger the maintenance of an adequate standard of fertility.
  As far as price insurance is concerned, this Bill deals with three commodities which are vital elements in our farming economy, commodities which recent experience has shown do require immediate assistance. During our conversations with the representative bodies, other commodities naturally came under review, but it was generally agreed that it was right and proper, having regard to the Parliamentary time at our disposal, that we should concentrate our efforts this Session on oats, barley, and sheep. I believe that if through this Bill we can bring stability to these three commodities, and when the legislation dealing with milk and poultry has been considered by Parliament, then we shall have rounded off our scheme for ensuring stability for all the principal farm products. If any hon. Member questions that assertion, I would like to remind him that the National Farmers Union of England and Wales have expressed the opinion recently that if this Bill becomes law, no staple farm product will remain without some effecttive form of safeguard, and that is, I am sure, what hon. Members would desire.
  The object of the whole of our policy is to maintain sound farming practice and to preserve the fertility of the land, and Members in all parts of the House would expect to find that the Measure before us is coupled with measures designed to encourage efficiency in farming. I am far from subscribing to a view which is prevalent in some quarters, namely, that the British farmer is inefficient and unprogressive. On the contrary, I think he has made superhuman efforts to adapt himself to new conditions during recent years. Great progress has been made, but there is still much to be done. While we are thinking of how to get, through State assistance, a reasonable financial return, it is easy to overlook the fact that the greater part of the work of my Department is directed towards the elimination of waste and the improvement of the efficiency of the agricultural industry. I

  1567
  need mention, by way of example, only a few things—the colossal system of organised marketing which has grown up in the space of six or seven years, the National Mark movement, the -£800,000 which we spend on research and education, our livestock improvement scheme, and the campaign which has been inaugurated for the eradication of animal diseases, which are estimated at the present time to be responsible for annual losses amounting to some £14,000,000.
  In accordance with our well established policy, the measures of assistance provided by the present Bill are linked with provisions for securing a continuous growth of efficiency. I do not want to give details at this stage, but there are two matters to which I would like to draw the attention of the House. First of all, provision is made for withholding or reducing the proposed assistance to oats and barley where there is evidence that the land has been negligently cultivated or is being used in a way that is likely to impair its fertility; secondly, the provisions for deficiency payments for sheep are deliberately framed in such a way as to encourage the production of a type of carcase such as the consumer now demands and so to strengthen the competitive position of our home producers. These two examples will, I hope, be sufficient to convince hon. Members that we have no intention of bolstering up inefficiency or compensating farmers out of the taxpayer's pocket for their failure to make a success of their own business. On the contrary, the very keynote of our policy is to create a condition of things which will enable the fanner himself to make his farming pay.
  It is not for nothing that this Bill has been called the Agricultural Development Bill. Its aim is to encourage the rational development of British agriculture along its own natural lines. That, however, is not the same as uncontrolled expansion, which could, in my view, produce no permanent benefits for the industry. Limits have been placed upon the output of each commodity in respect of which the full rate of subsidy can be paid, not merely because the taxpayer naturally wants to know what will be the maximum extent of his liability but also because it is in the interests of the industry itself that development should be orderly. Farmers' memories are long enough to need no
  1568
  reminding of the disastrous results of spectacularly increased production, which was almost inevitably followed by ruthless retrenchment. Notwithstanding, in this Bill room is left for expansion. The ceilings prescribed by the Bill do represent in each case an advance on existing production.
  I have so far not referred to what may be described as the emergency provisions of the Bill. They are of a somewhat different character from the long-term measures, and are intended mainly as a precaution in case of war. That part of the Bill which provides for assistance for ploughing up old grassland is, however, thoroughly in keeping with the general character of the Bill. Not only will it place the land in a better condition to meet any increased demand which a national emergency may make upon it, but if we should happily be spared the disaster of war the reseeding of the pastures which have been ploughed up will increase their fertility and we shall have made a good investment in the end. Thus, there is no conflict between our permanent aims and those measures that may usefully be taken in peace time to provide for the contingency of war. The policy that we are pursuing is justified alike on the ground of National Defence and as a means of maintaining economic and social stability in times of peace. I hope sincerely that for these reasons the proposals will commend themselves to the House and the country at large.
  I have tried to explain our approach to agricultural problems and the object which this Bill seeks to attain. Now I will try to go into some of the details and to explain as briefly as possible; the various provisions in this complicated Measure. Part I deals with oats and provides for an improvement and an absolutely necessary improvement in the scale of assistance that is already given to oats under Part II of the Agriculture Act, 1937, most of which it is now proposed to repeal. It is well known that there are certain areas in Scotland, the North of England, Wales and Northern Ireland where the growing of oats is necessary for the proper rotation of crops, and the assistance given under the Agriculture Act, 1937, cannot be regarded as adequate for this purpose nor sufficient to ensure that the farmers maintain their proper efficiency.

  1569
  The Agriculture Act provides for the payment to growers of oats an Exchequer subsidy on an acreage basis related to the difference between the average market price and the standard price of 8s. per cwt. The rate of assistance was based on the estimated portion of the oats crop sold off the farm, namely, six cwts. out of the average yield of 16 cwts. per acre. The assistance was confined to those growers who either did not grow wheat or who did not claim wheat deficiency payments. It is proposed to remove this disability and to provide for payments at the existing rate up to a maximum of £1an acre to oat growers who are also growers of wheat. The farmer who grows wheat will have complete freedom to choose whether he will receive the maximum assistance for his oats and be debarred from assistance for his wheat, or whether he will receive assistance on a modest scale for his oats and full assistance to which he is entitled for his wheat. At the same time it is recognised that there is a substantial number of farmers whose land cannot grow wheat and for whom the oats crop forms an essential part of their farming system. For these growers it is proposed to provide assistance based upon an estimated yield of 14 cwt. per acre up to a maximum payment of £2 6s. 8d. per acre. They will thus be entitled to assistance on practically the whole of their crop when allowance has been made for seed and waste, as under the Wheat Act. ,
  Mr. Alexanders: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the reason for paying on r4 cwt. out of a yield of 16 cwt.?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: There is an allowance made for seed and waste in the same way as under the Wheat Act. The standard price of 8s. per cwt. is retained, but we have to provide for contingencies, and if there is any material change in the situation there will be power under the Bill to review and to vary the standard price by order of the Minister concerned, with the consent of the Treasury and with the subsequent approval of Parliament.
  Again, in accordance with the well-established principle that there must be some limit to the Treasury's liability, provision is made for a maximum acreage on which payments will be made in full on the higher or lower scale respectively. It would, obviously, be unfair that those
  1570
  farmers who depend upon oats as their main cash crop should suffer a reduction in the rate of deficiency payments because growers of wheat who are also growers of oats have substantially increased their acreage under oats. The Bill, therefore, provides for two separate" ceilings" appropriate to the higher and lower rates of subsidy. Our experience in regard to oats is limited to the experience which has been gained during the operation of the 1937 Act, and therefore it is provided that there shall be no reduction in the rate of deficiency payments unless the combined total of 2,500,000 acres is exceeded, even though the standard acreage appropriate to one of the two scales has been overtopped.
  I have referred to the provision against negligent cultivation. The Government attach importance to this provision, but in fairness to the farmers it should be said that I do not expect that there will be many cases of negligent or improper cultivation. It has been surprising how few cases of this kind have been found in the past. The provisions which I have described are also meant to apply retrospectively to land under oats and also to land under barley in 1938. Part II contemplates treatment for barley in future of an entirely different"kind from that accorded to oats, and it would be impossible to make retrospective for barley harvested in 1938 any scheme which would involve the co-operation of the industries which use barley for malting purposes. For 1938, therefore, barley will be treated as though it were oats. As far as the payments for 1938 are concerned the average price has been calculated and it is possible to state exactly what will be the revised rates of payment. They work out at 31s. 6d. per acre for growers who will become eligible for the higher rate of assistance under the Bill and 13s. 6d. an acre for those who become eligible for the lower rate.
  Some growers have already received subsidy payments under the Agriculture Act, and such payments will be treated as advances of the new rates under the present Bill. Growers of oats have already received payment at the rate of 13s. 2d. per acre in respect of nearly 1,300,000 acres, while growers of barley have received advance payments of 10s. 10d. per acre. It will be seen therefore, that the new rate of 31s. 6d. for those growers

  1571
  who are eligible for the full rate will represent a very substantial, but nevertheless a very necessary improvement. So far as the cost to the Exchequer is concerned the retrospective payments are estimated to cost about £2,120,000 for oats and £800,000 for barley over and above the sums of £850,000 and £110,000 already paid or payable under the provisions of the Agriculture Act.
  So far as barley is concerned, it has proved during the past two decades one of the most intractable of agricultural problems, largely because barley has two distinct uses, for malting and for grinding, and there is no clear line of division between the portions of the crop which are used respectively for the two purposes. It depends entirely upon the quality and quantity of the crop in any given year. Although it must be admitted that barley is not one of the chief sources of the farmer's revenue it is nevertheless a very vital crop in certain parts of the country. It is true that the value of the quantity of barley sold off the farm in England and Wales represents only £4,000,000 out of a total of £200,000,000 for all agricultural products; but I do not think these figures give anything like a true picture of the importance of barley in the fanning economy in certain parts of the country.
  Sixty per cent. of the total acreage of barley in the United Kingdom is contained in 10 predominantly arable counties of Eastern England. In four of those counties barley represents over20 per cent. of the arable acreage. In these counties, moreover, farmers depend very largely upon the sale of barley for malting purposes, for the production of which their land is specially suitable, and when a slump occurs, as in this present season, it bears very hardly upon growers of barley in that part of the country. Not only do they have to accept unremunerative prices for that part of their crop which they can sell for malting but a substantial part of the crop is likely to be unsaleable for anything but grinding purposes at the much lower grinding prices which are governed by world prices. Much the same may be said of those fertile areas in the North-East of Scotland, round the Moray Firth, where barley is grown for sale to local distilleries and where an adequate market at a satisfactory price is all-important to the economy of
  1572
  farmers. The measures adopted in the past to deal with the question of barley have proved quite inadequate to save the growers from very severe losses in a season like the present when there is a considerable surplus of barley in relation to the normal consumption by users of malt.
  The House will recollect that in December last my predecessor called a conference of growers, buyers and users of barley to see what steps could be taken to prevent a recurrence of this disastrous situation. A number of proposals were considered and it is very gratifying to find that the two industries chiefly concerned, the brewers and the distillers, both expressed their anxiety to play their part in any practicable and equitable scheme that could be devised to meet the situation. This anxiety has been shared by all the interests concerned in the handling and processing of barley. In the last few months there has been continuous discussion and various schemes have been drawn up and examined. From those discussions it would appear that if we are to get a practicable scheme to deal with malting barley it must be founded one one of two principles —either a principle which involves a levy on the users of malt, the proceeds of which, coupled with the price which is paid to the grower for his barley, will be enough to raise a prescribed aggregate quantity of home-grown barley to a prescribed standard price.
  Under this type of scheme, if users of malt absorbed less than a predetermined reasonable quantity of home-grown barley, they would in the aggregate have to make up through a levy the price of the deficit, which would have gone for feeding, to the statutory figure, whatever that may be, and the proceeds of that levy, with the addition of a contribution from the Exchequer, would be distributed amongst growers of barley. The alternative scheme which has been under consideration is based on the principle of having a statutory requirement that individual users of malt should pay not less than a prescribed minimum average price for the home-grown barley or malt that they purchase and at the same time be required to use not less than a prescribed minimum quantity in relation to their production of the final product —whisky, beer or malt extract. The industries which account for the greatest part of the barley consumed for malting purposes,

  1573
  namely, the brewers and distillers, and the farmers themselves, have expressed a preference for a scheme of the latter kind in spite of the fact that it involves a measure of restriction upon the operation of individual firms. At present attention is being concentrated upon devising a satisfactory scheme, a practical long-term scheme, of this nature. In the Bill provision is made for a scheme on either basis to be introduced subject to the approval of both Houses of Parliament.
  Mr. John Morgan: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to make such a scheme retrospective as to last year's crops?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I said as clearly as I could that it will be quite impossible to do that. We have to bear in mind that we are trying to solve a problem which has hitherto been thought to be insoluble and, although there is a strong preference for a minimum-price minimum-quantity scheme, we have to provide for all contingencies and to try to avoid the necessity of having to bring in amending legislation should we finally fail, to evolve a satisfactory minimum price plan or should such a method prove unsatisfactory after trial. It is, however, our definite intention, if Parliament entrusts us with the necessary powers, to proceed with the elaboration of a long-term scheme based on the minimum-price minimum-quantity principle and I hope, if we can keep the goodwill which is already apparent, such a scheme will be eventually submitted for the approval of the House. The Bill lays down a number of provisions which may be included in a scheme of that kind. Any scheme would need to have the affirmative approval of both Houses of Parliament before being brought into operation.
  Mr. Alexander: Has the Minister discussed the basis of the management of the scheme? Is it to be a producer scheme?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I am coming to that. As with oats there is provision for a ceiling, in this case a maximum quantity of 18,000,000 cwts., in relation to which the full rate of assistance from the Exchequer will be determined. Power is proposed to be taken to vary the standard price of feeding barley if there is a material change in the price level or other conditions, and there are similar provisions to those applying to oats for meeting the danger of negligent cultiva-
  1574
  tion. Under a minimum price scheme farmers who sell barley for malting purposes would receive no additional financial assistance in respect of that part of their crop, whereas those who sold all or part of their barley for feeding purposes, or retained it for feeding stock, would receive a subidy sufficient to make the average price up to 8s. per cwt., subject to a maximum payment of £2 13s. 4d. an acre. There is provision for the constitution of a Barley Advisory Committee representative of growers, merchants and users of barley, with an independent chairman. That committee will advise the Minister on any scheme introduced and on its effect on the trade and other interests concerned. In the case of a levy scheme, the levy fund would be administered by the Government itself. In the case of a minimum-price minimum-quantity scheme, the details have not yet been worked out.
  Even though the Bill should pass through its various stages fairly quickly, and even though substantial progress has been made along the lines of working out a minimum-price minimum-quantity scheme, it is evident that there would not be time to put such a scheme into operation before the beginning of the next barley season in August, and it is essential that a scheme of such a permanent and comprehensive character should be very carefully considered in all its details and. not hastily introduced. Provision is therefore made for the introduction of a special scheme of a simplified character to relate to the 1939 crop only. It is of the levy subsidy type, and it is expected that it will involve a levy on all brewers on the basis of their output of beer, and possibly a corresponding levy upon distillers based upon their output of spirits. We have had discussions with the brewers and I do not think it will be possible to bring in all users of malt. It may, indeed, be desirable to exempt the distillers from this levy scheme in view of the special circumstances that obtain in Scotland and to deal with barley of the 1939 crop used for distilling by another method which would attain the same object. There is always a part of the barley crop which is not used for brewing or distilling, and the House would be asked to sanction an appropriate Exchequer contribution, to be added to the levy mentioned above, for distribution amongst barley growers on an acreage

  1575
  basis. Both the levies and the Exchequer moneys would be on a sliding scale depending on the average market price of barley over a suitable period. The details would be incorporated in a scheme which would be submitted for the approval of both Houses of Parliament. This appears to us to be the simplest form of scheme which could be introduced in the short time now available and, although I do not think it would be appropriate as a long-term measure, I believe that we shall be able to operate it successfully for one year.
  I have discussed it with the brewing industry and I have very good reason to expect their co-operation on these lines. Indeed, I must express my gratitude and appreciation to the brewing industry and the distillers for all the willing help they have given us in coping with this very difficult problem and the evidence that they have shown of a genuine desire to help producers of barley to obtain a fair return for their produce. These temporary arrangements have one incidental advantage which is of some importance. They will help to overcome the difficulty of the heavy carry-over of barley from the 1938 harvest which would constitute a serious handicap in working a scheme, either minimum price or levy subsidy, of a more elaborate character. I again emphasise the fact that the measures contemplated for dealing with the 1939 crop are intended to be confined to this year only. As I have explained, it is considered desirable, in view of the difficulty of the problem, to frame the provisions of the more permanent scheme in such a way as to permit the continued use of the levy subsidy principle if that principle is the only practical solution, but I should regard a permanent scheme of that sort as a last resort. It is our intention that every effort should be concentrated on the preparation of the alternative form of scheme, namely one based on the principle ęof the purchase by the malt using industries of not less than a minimum quantity of barley at not less than a minimum price.
  Sir Archibald Sinclair: Will bere rank for assistance?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I should like notice of that question. With regard to the question of fat sheep, these provisions
  1576
  also are extremely complicated. I should like to explain them simply and briefly but I doubt whether it is possible to do so. I do not know whether I shall get away with this sentence, but it is a brief explanation. The Bill provides for the fixing of monthly standard prices and the calculation of average monthly market prices for fat sheep, and for the making of deficiency payments in each month when the market price falls short of the standard price by one farthing or more at a rate equal, for each sheep, to the price deficiency multiplied by the standard weight. That is a brief and simple explanation of the scheme.
  Mr. Alexander: Are there no boys from the elementary schools in the Civil Service who could use simpler language?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: We have excellent boys from the elementary schools in the Civil Service. The proposed method of assistance to sheep differs very radically from that at present in operation for cattle. In the first place, hon. Members who know the trade will agree that prices of fat sheep follow not only a marked seasonal trend over the year but also a cyclical trend extending over six or seven years, which leads to wide fluctuations in prices. In these circumstances a deficiency payment based on the results of a year's working or a flat rate subsidy would not be satisfactory for the sheep industry. On the other hand, if we treated each month separately by making deficiency payments in accordance with the relationship between the market price in that month and the standard price for that month, assistance would be given to the extent needed. Under the Bill the monthly standard prices are to be fixed in relation to a basic annual standard price of 10d. per 1b. The standard price is to be the price of live sheep per lb. estimated dressed carcase weight, and the average market prices will be prescribed on the same basis. There has been some confusion as to what dressed carcase weight means and I should like to give some explanation of that, although it is rather an unpleasant subject. The interpretation varies slightly from one part of the country to another but, generally speaking, it is the weight of the carcase when the head, the tongue, the skin., the guts, the liver, the heart and certain other internal organs have been removed.

  1577
  Clause 23 (c) enables the Ministers to make regulations defining dressed carcase weight for the purpose of the Bill. Perhaps the simplest way of making the matter plain is to show what a standard price of 10d. per lb. dressed carcase weight means in comparison with the prices realised last year, to which reference has often beep made by hon. Members in this House. Those who are familiar with fat stock prices know that the price of first and second quality fat sheep averaged over last year 8 ⅞d. per lb. This was the price of live sheep, per lb. of estimated dressed carcase weight. Under these proposals, the farmer will, in future, be assured of an average price over the year of not less than 10d. per lb., on exactly the same basis. It is estimated that if this scheme had been in operation during 1938, the subsidy, on certain broad assumptions, would have amounted to approximately £2,500,000 on exactly the same determination. There are provisions for the automatic reduction of the basic annual standard price of 10d. per lb. in certain circumstances and it is important that this also should be made clear. In the first place, if the sheep population of the United Kingdom in any year exceeds 27,000,000, the annual standard price is to be reduced by ⅛d. for each complete 250,000 of the excess, and by ¼d. for each complete 250,000 by which it exceeds 28,000,000.
  Sir Richard Acland: What is the sheep population now?
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: The latest figure is 26,800,000. It is not the intention of the Government that these price insurance proposals should lead to an expansion of United Kingdom production of mutton and lamb, beyond the capacity of the market to absorb home-killed sheep, and this provision for a reduction in the standard price when the sheep population increases, is in line with similar provisions regarding standard quantities in the Wheat Act and in the proposals for assistance to growers of oats and barley. I may mention that since the War the sheep population has only been in excess of 27,000,000 in one year, namely, 1932, and in that year the excess was less than a complete 250,000, so that no reduction in the basic standard price would have been necessary even in 1932. We have not the figures of the sheep population in 1939, but last year it was 26,800,000.
  1578
  Provision is also made for reducing the standard population of 27,000,000 when, for each of two successive years, the average annual market price has been below the annual standard price and for reinstating the 27,000,000 basic population, when subsequent to a reduction, average market prices are above the standard price.
  In explaining this provision I must repeat that the purpose of these price insurance proposals is to insure producers against unduly low price levels, and it is not the intention of the Government that the standard prices on which payments to sheep producers are to be based, should be maintained at a level permanently above market prices. If, therefore, market prices were for two years below the standard price, that probably would be an indication that the standard price fixed under this Bill had ceased to be in accordance with the general level of commodity prices, or that the standard population of 27,000,000, fixed in the Bill, had ceased to represent a sheep population which gave a production of mutton and lamb that the market could absorb at economic prices. Other influences, however, may be at work. If. in the view of the Government, low prices are due to the pressure of imported supplies, or other adventitious causes, there is a provision to enable Ministers, by Order, to suspend in any year the operation of the requirement for the reduction of the basic sheep population.
  We have also to take into account the possibility of a contraction in demand, but it is my hope that with the increased attention that should be given to quality production and the marketing of light sheep and light joints, the demand for the home product will expand. Some fundamental change in general price levels or a material change in the conditions of the industry, might also make that figure of 10d. inappropriate to the circumstances prevailing in a few years time. Therefore, the provisions in the Bill relating to the basic standard price and the standard population may be varied by Orders, made by the Ministers after consultation with the Livestock Commission, and with the consent of the Treasury and subject to the affirmative approval of Parliament. Obviously, the power to modify these two related basic features of the sheep policy will not be

  1579
  lightly used. The Government would need to be satisfied that there had been a material change in conditions before these powers of variation were invoked, particularly that relating to modification of the standard population. I would like to go into the whole question of standard weights and standard sheep, but in view of the time which I have already occupied I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman opposite might put any questions in his own speech, and it will be answered later.
  Part IV of the Bill deals with what is essentially an emergency Measure. Its main object is to increase our preparedness to expand food production in this country in time of war. With this object, the Bill authorises the Ministers to give grants of £1 per half-acre, with a minimum of two acres, towards the cost of ploughing up, between 4th May and 31st October, 1939, land which has been under grass for not less than seven years and bringing such land into a condition capable of growing satisfactory crops in 1940. The House will appreciate that however much we might like to make this provision retrospective for farmers who had the foresight to plough up before that date, it would be impossible to devise equitable and administratively sound arrangements for the payment of grant in those cases. I would like to pay a tribute to the county agricultural organisers and their staffs for the great work which they have done in helping farmers to take advantage of this scheme. It is anticipated that we shall get at least 250,000 acres by this scheme. Already we have got half way. We have received notifications in respect of about 125,000 acres, which is, I think, most encouraging.
  Part V deals with reserves of agricultural machinery and other matters, and I think only two features need special mention. The first is the reserve of agricultural tractors and machinery. The House has already had an opportunity of debating this subject and will not, I think, want me to say much more about it. We are now seeking authority to create the necessary reserve. I would repeat that these tractors cannot be used in the ploughing-up scheme for this year. They are only for use in the event of an outbreak of war. There has been some anxiety as to whether there will be the
  1580
  necessary supplies of fuel and labour to enable us to work these tractors to the full extent if an emergency should arise. I think I can reassure the House on that point. Adequate provision has been made to cover petrol requirements. It has also been suggested that use might be made of producer gas. That is still in its experimental stage, but its possibilities are being thoroughly explored. As far as the supply of labour is concerned, the House will realise that agricultural tractor drivers over the age of 21, have now been included in the Schedule of Reserved Occupations, thus ensuring that they will not be enlisted in any form of National Service which would require their whole-time service in the event of war. As a second string, we are bringing in a scheme for training members of the Women's Land Army. We hope that these measures will ensue that the tractors can be used in the fullest possible way. As far as machinery is concerned, a representative of my Department yesterday attended a meeting of the Agricultural Engineers' Association in London, and this association has set up a committee of six members to work out a detailed plan in conjunction with the Ministry.
  The second question to which I would refer in connection with this part of the Bill is that of credit. The Clause in question does not involve any extension of agricultural credit facilities. I should make that clear. It is intended to enable the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, which is the principal organ of long-term agicultural credit in England and Wales, to overcome certain difficulties which have hampered its activities in recent years. Owing to the fall in rates of interest, the corporation has found itself unable to lend money at corresponding rates without incurring losses. This Bill provides for Exchequer assistance by way of grant or loan, up to £60,000 a year for 20 years, to cover the losses during that period, so that the corporation will again be in a position to fulfil those functions for which it is designed.
  I have, I know, wearied the House in explaining the provisions of the Bill, but my excuse is that the Bill is a very complex one and of very great importance to the agricultural industry. I would like to express the hope —it is not a hope, I think, which is impossible of realisation —that the House will show its sense of the significance of the Measure by giving it

  1581
  an unopposed Second Reading. I assure hon. Members opposite that such a gesture would give the greatest possible encouragement to all who work on the land, and would be the best possible earnest of the concern of Parliament in their work. The Amendment which appears on the Order Paper states that it ignores the necessity of improving the lot of the agricultural worker. I claim with confidence that, on the contrary, the improvement of the conditions of the agricultural worker and the maintenance of the rural population on the land, cannot be hoped for, let alone secured, unless provisions such as those embodied in the Bill, are carried into effect and maintained as a permanent feature of our national policy. It is a paradox and, I venture to say, a most frightening paradox that although agriculture is the most vital of all human occupations and is at this moment the main preoccupation of mankind, nevertheless in nearly every country in the world we find that the return which it gives to those engaged in it, to farmers, to smallholders, to peasants, to wage-earners, is less than the returns given by manufacturing industry, or trade, or commerce, or almost any other occupation.
  For this reason, and, no doubt, also because of the urban bias of modern civilisation, we find that in practically every country there is a drift away from the land to the towns. Every Government to-day views this development with anxiety. Every Government is beginning to realise the necessity of dealing with one of the fundamental causes of the troubles of those who are engaged in agriculture, the wage-earners just as much as the farmers, and that cause surely is the unstable and unremunerative prices obtained for the products of agriculture. Uncertainty and low prices prevent that measure of prosperity which is essential to the maintenance and improvement of the conditions of those engaged in agriculture. That is what we are trying to deal with in this Bill. I claim, therefore, that, so far from ignoring the agricultural worker, we are by this Bill taking measures, which are of vital necessity to his welfare. In so far as we are able, stage by stage, to restore the position of agriculture in this country, we already have the machinery of the Agricultural Wages Act, on which, I think, all parties in the House are agreed, for securing that the agricultural worker receives full consideration.
  1582
  It is my view, and I thought it was the view of the Labour party, that, given the difficulties with which agriculture has to contend, and in particular given the disparity which does exist between the returns from agriculture and from other industries and occupations, the machinery of the Agricultural Wages Act is the most practical and the most effective means that can be devised for safeguarding and improving the position of the workers. But when all is said and done, neither that machinery nor any other can help the agricultural worker if prosperity cannot be restored to the industry itself. On the other hand, if we do restore that prosperity then we have the necessary means of ensuring that the agricultural worker does secure his fair share of it. That the present Wages Act does achieve its object is shown, I think, by the experience of the last six or seven years. During that period there has been a rise of nearly 14 per cent. in minimum agricultural wage rates, and that improvement has been maintained in spite of the set-back which agriculture suffered in 1937 –38.
  I fully recognise that wages and the machinery for safeguarding and improving wages are by no means the whole story, and that there is an urgent need to improve the amenities of life for the agricultural worker. We have tried to do that. By the Unemployment Insurance (Agriculture) Act, 1936, we have given him a measure of security against unemployment. By the Rural Housing Act we are seeking to improve housing conditions in country districts, which I know is a matter of vast importance if we are to get people to stay on the land. Again, by the Holidays with Pay Act we have enabled agricultural wages committees to fix holidays with pay for agricultural workers, with a statutory backing.
  Although this Agricultural Development Bill is, I admit, something of an omnibus Bill, and contains a number of different proposals, I do not suggest for a moment that it deals with all the problems of agriculture. It will never be practicable to legislate in one comprehensive all-embracing Bill for all the aspects of such a complex industry. In any case the Government's policy has got to be taken as a whole. It has been embodied in a great number of Acts, and I think the hon. Member opposite will agree that the fact that unemployment insurance in

  1583
  agriculture, rural housing and holidays with pay have already been dealt with by other legislation is not a valid ground for criticism that they are not included in the present Bill.
  I claim that we are not legislating for any sectional interest but for the benefit of all who work on the land. Our policy aims at restoring agriculture to a state of permanent stability and well being, which will enable it to fulfil its proper part in our national life. It is abundantly clear, and it is plain common sense, that that aim will never be realised unless we have an adequate supply not only of skilled farmers but of skilled workers content and happy in their work and mode of life. I should be the last to claim that this Bill alone will solve all the problems, but I do claim that, taken in conjunction with the other Measures of the Government, it will materially assist in enabling all those engaged in agriculture to face the future with confidence, and confidence is still the best energiser of men and the best fertiliser of the land.
  5.34 p.m.
  Mr. T. Williams: I beg to move, to leave out from the word" That," to the end of the question, and to add instead thereof:
  " whilst anxious to establish the agricultural industry upon a sure foundation and thus enable it to play its part in a national emergency, this House cannot assent to the Second Reading of a Bill which ignores the necessity for improving the lot of the agricultural worker and arresting the depopulation of the countryside, and grants further substantial subsidies under conditions which will not encourage good farming, fail to provide for an effective price insurance scheme or a costings and price system, and are not calculated to ensure stability in the industry."
  If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's preamble and peroration were embodied in one pamphlet I am sure that it would be extremely useful in rural districts during the election campaign, but I am not sure that either preamble or peroration has much relation to the Bill before the House. This is one addition to a long trail of agricultural Bills which we have had since 1931. In the earlier part of his speech the right hon. and gallant Gentleman said something to the effect that Acts alone would not solve the agricultural or any other problem. If Acts of Parliament could have solved the agricultural problem it would have been
  1584
  solved several years ago, and there: would have been no necessity for a further agricultural Measure for the next 50 years. In the last seven or eight years we have passed no fewer than 36 or 37 Bills dealing with some phase or other of agriculture. I invite hon. Members to note that by 1939 we have reached this stage: We are subsidising sugar, indirectly subsidising wheat, directly subsidising beef, directly subsidising milk, providing a price insurance scheme for bacon, subsidising oats, subsidising barley, subsidising fertility, subsidising drainage; and we have imposed heavy duties upon imports of fruits, vegetables and flowers, and to that extent provided an indirect subsidy to the producers of those commodities. So we are in this happy position: We are paying a subsidy to farmers who turn over grassland for the purpose of growing future cereal crops, we are subsidising the land when it has been turned over by helping the farmer to buy lime and basic slag, we are subsidising the farmer's raw materials in the shape of feeding stuffs —oats and barley —and then we are subsidising the beef, the finished product, which is the sum of the raw materials out of the fertilised land which we originally subsidised. That is an extraordinary state of affairs, and the" Times" might well say the other day:
  "The Measures promised for this Session of Parliament need to be given a wider purpose than merely to hand out subsidies to barley growers, oat growers, milk producers and sheep farmers to keep them out of the bankruptcy court."
  That observation in the" Times" was well deserved. The right hon. Gentleman called this an agricultural development Bill. I should term it a" subsidy continuation and extension Bill," because I have looked in vain through all the 40 Clauses to see the development side of it. There is a maximum acreage for oats, a maximum tonnage for barley, a maximum number for sheep —indeed, when I examine the Bill and all that it contains I can only regard it as being the Kettering policy sugar-coated. It is far removed from an agricultural development Bill. On 6th February, 1936, when the right hon. Gentleman had been in the House only a few months, he said with youthful enthusiasm:
  " The whole of the fanning community is waiting with some anxiety for the Government's long-term agricultural policy, and I am confident that when that policy is unfolded, as unfolded it must be very soon.

  1585
  it will envisage such a degree of expansion that it will make it quite impossible for the industry to think in terms of unemployment."
  After three years we are still waiting. He told us there was no one specific for all the ills of agriculture, although his Government have since 1931 applied only one specific, the financial specific. In that same speech in February, 1936, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  " We have lost 200,000 workers since 1931. We can get them back, along those departments of agriculture which mechanisation cannot touch."— OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1936; cols. 419 –20, Vol. 308.]
  We have lost 50,000 more workers since then, yet the right hon. Gentleman is proceeding to buy £1,250,000 worth of mechanised appliances without having restored one agricultural labourer to the land. How many agricultural labourer have been restored to the land since that speech was made? Instead of getting more back to the land we have lost another 50,000. After February, 1936, and before 8th July, 1936, the ex-Minister of Agriculture had in all probability whispered into the ear of the right hon. Gentleman," As president of the National Farmers Union you ought to be more discreet in this House, and your demands ought not to be so great." At any rate, on 8th July the right hon. Gentleman had toned down to saying this:
  " There has been great development since the Government came in. …1 hope that we shall not be expected to do anything in five or ten minutes and so ruin the whole business by doing it hastily. —[Official Report, 8th July, 1936; cols. 1296 –7, Vol. 314.]
  Could anyone imagine this Government doing anything hastily? Could anyone imagine this Government doing anything which was going to stabilise any situation? In the course of his speech the right hon. Gentleman said that what agriculture wants more than all else is stability. In 1937 the right hon. Gentleman's Government passed an Act to subsidise oats and barley. The Bill before us will repeal parts of that Act. They are stabilising the industry in such a way that in 1939 we are to repeal parts of an Act of 1937. If that does not create instability I do not know what instability means. It is true that since the right hon. Gentleman spoke in July, 1936, we have subsidised beef —or increased the subsidy —we have increased the subsidy for milk, we have provided a subsidy for oats and for barley, and a price insurance scheme for bacon. This
  1586
  Bill is simply a continuation of that slow, painful, financial march, but except for the sums of money allocated for fertilising grassland, and perhaps the sums set apart for turning over sour grass land, nothing is being done to promote the development of agriculture in any sense. This Bill does not develop agriculture: it merely continues and extends subsidies.
  I do not want to befuddle the House with figures, but the Bill means that the Government are providing for oat growers an annual subsidy of some £2,230,000, and in a very bad season the Treasury may be called upon to find 4,500,000, plus £60,000 administrative expenses. For barley the annual payment may be £1,250,000, with £65,000 for administrative expenses. We also have to make a retrospective payment of 2,920,000 for the 1928 crop —a sort of pre-election gift to the right hon. Gentleman's political friends. We have to set aside £900,000 per annum for sheep producers, plus £2 per acre for ploughing up grass lands, say, £1,200,000 for the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman calls that an agricultural development Bill. I repeat here what we say in our Amendment. This is not an agricultural development Bill; and it totally ignores the needs of the skilled labourers on the land of this country.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman talked about what the Government have done for agricultural labourers. The Conservative Government had been in office for many generations before the right hon. and gallant Gentleman became a Member of this House, or even a Minister, and they never thought of an agricultural wages regulation Bill. They just ignored the labourers then as they do now. If the labourers are securing any benefit as a result of the long series of subsidies which have been provided for agriculture, it is wholly due to the Agricultural Wages Regulation Act which was passed by the Government in 1924 and not to any positive step taken by the National Government or the Conservative Government at any time in the past. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman referred also to the unemployment scheme for agriculture; agriculturists and others sitting on these benches were pleading for that kind of Bill for many years. We know that the Government have extended that Bill to the reconditioning of houses, but that is

  1587
  the Government and local authorities subsidising private property-owners who will not keep their houses in a decent condition. The Act passed in 1931 by the Labour Government making provision for the erection of 40,000 rural houses was sterilised by the National Government, and instead of the 40,000 new houses that might have been built and that might ' have retained skilled agricultural workers upon the land, about 2,000 houses, I believe, have been built during about nine years. That is all that the National Government have done for agricultural labourers. If the National Government's financial aid to agriculture is large enough, some of it may filter through to the labourers in the form of wages. That is all that this Bill can do for the agricultural workers.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested that the Bill was designed to encourage efficient production, but he did not refer to the Clauses in detail. I had better refer hon. Members to what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had in mind. Clauses 4, 15 and 34 appear to give the right hon. and gallant Gentleman power either to pay or to withhold a subsidy where it is felt that oats and barley have been grown in an area wholly unsuited for those crops or the farmer has not done his work efficiently. Those Clauses are merely eyewash. They do not mean a thing; or, if they do, why did the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not tell us, and the tens of thousands of oats and barley producers in Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales, who is to determine whether an area has been farmed efficiently or not? Is it his intention to have a whole host of inspectors who will have power to enter upon land and to ascertain whether the land has been farmed efficiently? It might be that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has that in mind, but he made no observation concerning it in the course of his speech. Until we know from the Government that something positive is to be done with regard to ensuring efficiency on the part of the subsidy receiver, and to ensure that the subsidy receiver will not try to produce his commodity on land wholly unsuited for it, we are entitled to tell the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that we think these provisions are merely eyewash and are not calculated to improve the farming of this country.
  1588
  The Bill repeals part of the 1937 Act. It is important to notice that of the oats consumed in this country approximately 93 per cent. is home grown; therefore, there can be no foreign competition with regard to that commodity. I am sure that the right hon., and gallant Gentleman would not suggest that foreign competition has been a disturbing factor in the price for oats. Secondly, it ought to be clearly understood that in England and Wales and part of Scotland almost the whole of the oats grown upon the farm are consumed upon the farm. Only in some parts of Scotland are oats regarded as a cash crop. In other words, the oats produced in the country are very largely used on farms or are sold by one farmer to another. With this subsidy in operation it simply means that in a very bad season when prices are awfully low the Treasury steps in to fill the gap, but if there is a very good season with a small yield and high prices, some farmers will be exacting from other farmers high prices for that quantity of oats that they sell to each other. It is a sort of heads the Treasury loses and tails the Treasury has not got a chance. The Treasury step in where the price is low, but if the price happens to be high the farmer walks away with it and says nothing. That is why we declare that this Bill is not to be a price insurance. Our impression of insurance is that somebody must pay a premium. There is nobody here to pay a premium. The Treasury has to find the losses while those who get the profits simply walk away with them.
  I remember that on the day when the right hon. and gallant Gentleman made his announcement concerning oats a Scottish farmer who. had sat in the Gallery walked out into the Members' Lobby and said: "At long last the Scottish farmer has got his snout in the pail." There is no doubt at all that he has his snout in the pail to some considerable extent in regard to oats.
  Sir Joseph Lamb: It all depends on what is in the bucket.
  Mr. Williams: In any case, why is it that this oats subsidy is based upon acreage and not upon yield? The answer is very simple. I presume it is known to all agriculturists in the House, but as there may be some who are not

  1589
  agriculturists, perhaps some slight explanation is necessary. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman provides a subsidy where the yield is 11 cwts. per acre in Wales or Oxfordshire or 20 cwts. per acre in Scotland, but that is not the way to encourage good farming. To grant a subsidy on the basis of yield or sales would be administratively impossible, because oats in the large proportion of cases are not sold at all, and nobody could determine who had bought and who had sold oats if they were administering on a basis of yield. We are entitled to say that whatever the yield the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is not helping to encourage good farming. It is a case of this sort, that at the lower price the farmer sells it to the farmer and the higher the subsidy, while the Ministry and the Treasury are helpless. They have no control over the method of selling. They must accept some statement made through certain market agents, and that is the only guiding influence they have to determine what the subsidy in this case should be.
  I have one other observation to make in regard to oats. The average price for the past nine years has been 6s. 10d. per cwt. The guaranteed price under the terms of the Bill is approximately 7s. 9d. per cwt., even if the price fell to 4s. 8d. per cwt. That is in cases where no wheat subsidy is claimed by that grower. In the lower cases, where wheat subsidy is also paid, the guaranteed price is approximately 6s. Id. Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman ask his colleague when he replies to-night to give the House some information as to the calculations of the guaranteed 7s. 9d. per cwt. for oats? We want to know, and so do the House and the country, something about the cost of production of oats. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman fixes the price at a shilling per cwt. more than the average for the past nine years we ought to know the basis of his calculation. I should have thought that instead of talking glibly about costs covering long periods the right hon. and gallant Gentleman might have given us the benefit of the costing accounts which he has at his disposal. It takes a long series of years before you get the average of one commodity in its relationship to other commodities. These subsidies have been going on since 1932, and throughout that period we have never had a word of
  1590
  what it costs to produce either wheat, barley, oats, beef or anything else. We are entitled before this House agrees to a subsidy in this form to ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the basis of his calculation.
  I know certain areas of land where one cwt. of oats can be produced for 4s. On wholly unsuitable land in other parts of the country, it may be that a cwt. of oats may cost from 12s. to 16s. per cwt. We ought to know something about these figures. We ought to know that oats or barley will not be produced on land totally unsuited to these two crops. In 1937 the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's predecessor, when guaranteeing 8s. per cwt. for oats, provided for a 5d. margin between 8s. and 7s. 7d., and his explanation for the 5d. margin, when challenged by hon. Members opposite him, was administrative finance. He said that we might find ourselves paying out a large number of extremely small payments at great administrative expense, whereas the sums to be paid out would be of no real value to the farmer. Well, why change from the 5d. margin between 8s. and 7s. 7d. to a 3d. margin between 8s. and 7s. 9d.? Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will tell us the reason later.
  Clause 9 deals with retrospective payments for 1938 crops of barley and oats. This is purely a gift of £2,930,000 to oats and barley growers because of the revolt in various counties on the part of the farmers during that year. Hon. Members will know that Jimmy Wright, the farmers' secretary, threatened to oppose the Conservative candidate in East Norfolk, and that there was a farmers' candidate opposing the Conservative candidate in Holderness. There was the threatened march of the Suffolk farmers. The Government, like so many white mice or timid rabbits, made promises which were readily accepted, and the House is now called upon to foot the Bill of £2,930,000. That is a free election gift to their Tory friends merely because, in 1937, they had no knowledge of the problem with which they were dealing. In 1938 there was a scare on the part of the farmers, and Clause 9 is the result. Part II of the Bill deals with barley schemes but these are still in the bosoms of the Ministers, and we shall hear more about them after the Ministerial hibernation. We do know that, on the basis of the right hon. Gentleman's

  1591
  own figures in the Financial Memorandum, the actual average subsidy that we may be called upon to pay is approximately £1,250,000. I do not need to deal with the fixed price scheme or the levy subsidy scheme; I am only concerned about what this House is being called upon to meet this afternoon.
  The Government have to guarantee, for non-malting barley, 8s. a cwt. As far as I have been able to examine the figures, I can only find a general average price for all barley sold. We know that in February the price is much higher than in other months, presumably because it is the period when malting and distilling barley is being purchased, but the average for the last nine years has been 8s. 7d. a cwt. for all barley. This Bill guarantees a price of 8s. a cwt. for all non-malting barley. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman who is going to reply will tell us why malting barley and non-malting barley have been separated, and what is the basis of the figure of 8s. a cwt. for barley that will not go into manufacture. Barley, as is generally known, is a commodity that is sold by farmers to farmers through merchants, as regards that portion which does not go to the distillers or brewers. In other words, it is a feeding stuff. Here, again, we have no statement of the cost of production, and we have no control over the methods of selling. The producers, the merchants and the rest will sell and buy just as they like, and the right hon. Gentleman, like the good servant that he is of the agricultural merchant, the middleman and the rest, will accept their figures and tell the Treasury that it has to pay. That, as far as I can read the barley Clauses, is exactly the position in which we shall be.
  It is a very curious situation. In England and Wales, in 1937, the average price for barley was 12s. 9d. a cwt. There was no complaint from barley growers during that period, when there was a very small crop and the price was very high. But during the following year Nature was extremely kind, there was a record yield, and the price fell to 8s. 4d. a cwt. for all barley, malting and non-malting. Then they came to the right hon. Gentleman, and he has responded and provided them with this subsidy. But we want to know if it is fair that the Treasury, when, through no fault of the farmer, the bottom of the price is knocked
  1592
  out, should step in and fill the breach. If Nature is very unkind, if the yield is extremely small and the price goes up to very high levels, clearly the Treasury ought to be entitled to recoup themselves for what they have paid in the previous year of very low prices.
  Sir J. Lamb: Surely, when the yield is short, the farmer has less to sell, even at high prices?
  Mr. Williams: Clearly that is the ideal and the limit of the hon. Member's thought —that if the farmer can make a good profit he ought to be able to get away with it.
  Sir J. Lamb: He does not make a profit.
  Mr. Williams: Can the hon. Member say that the farmer did not make a decent profit in 1937, when the price was 12s. 9d.?
  Sir J. Lamb: It does not depend on the price only, but on the quantity he has to sell, and to sell more at a high price is sometimes not so beneficial as to sell a greater quantity at a smaller price.
  Mr. Williams: If the hon. Member has not the figures in his mind —he ought to have them, as a representative of agriculture —I can tell him what they are. In 1937, the total output 0: barley was 655,000 tons, and the average price was 12s. 9d. a cwt. I never heard any farmer complain during that year. In 1938 the output was over 001,000 tons, and the average price was 8s. 4d. If the hon. Member will work out the figures, he will find that, on the high record output of over 200,000 tons more in than in 1937, the farmers actually received £800,000 less for their 1938 crop than for the 1937 crop. They came to the House of Commons in 1938 to demand the £800,000 that they were short in 1938 as compared with 1:937, but if in there is a very small yield and a very high price, we shall not hear a word about it from the farmers. They cannot have their cake and eat it, and they ought to accept either the one figure or the other.
  Mr. Turton: Is that what the hon. Gentleman's party advocates under the policy of guaranteed prices?
  Mr. Williams: The hon. Member must know the facts if he has done us the

  1593
  honour of reading our literature. For a long time we have stood for stabilisation of prices and power to regulate imports of agricultural commodities, and we have never tried to recede from that position for one moment. I stand for the same policy this afternoon, and object to the policy of the Minister, which is all give and no take. No hon. Member in this House who really has the interests of agriculture at heart can support that policy for one moment. I repeat that, as regards barley, the right hon. Gentleman has no knowledge of costs and no control over prices. He accepts what private enterprise does, and pays up without complaint. That will not do for hon. Members on these benches. If we are willing to pay, we at least ought to be able to exercise some control over selling methods, so that we might be able to see to it that the farmer himself is not exploited by the keen business men who come between him and the consumer, as has been the case for a very long time. Now brewers, distillers, farmers and the Minister are coming together and are going to lay down what quantity of barley maltsters and distillers shall use. They ought to be able to provide a decent scheme between them. But I am pretty sure that, once the price is fixed by these three agencies, knowing that the Treasury are behind the non-malting barley price and will have to foot the bill, we shall find a new unholy alliance of brewers, distillers and farmers operating against the Treasury once they are given the chance.
  Part III of the Bill deals with fat sheep, and, again, taking the right hon. Gentleman's Memorandum, over a period of six years the annual charge on the Treasury will be round about £900,000. We are guaranteeing 10d. a lb. of dressed carcase weight according to the description given by the Minister. This is a curious piece of all put and no take. For four of the last six years the average price has been in excess of 10d. a lb., but for two of those years the average price has been slightly less than 10d. The Clause dealing with this fat sheep subsidy only provides the margin when the price falls below 10d., and, if the price goes up to 1s. 2d., 3s. 1d. or Is., the fat sheep producer just walks off with it and has nothing to say. For six years the prices have been, according to figures obtained from the Minister 9d., 10¼d.,
  1594
  10½d., 10¼d., 11½and, last year, 8¾d. For my part, I have no objection to paying the farmer an average of 10d. a lb. for his sheep, if they are of the right quality and if we can be satisfied that it is a fair and reasonable price. But, if we guarantee 10d. when the price falls below 10d., at least we ought to have something to say when the price is in excess of 10d. The scheme is so one sided as to be barely worth looking at; it is another example of" Heads I win, tails you lose." It has no real relation to a proper price insurance plan.
  The breeders of sheep on the hills in Wales and high up in Scotland had a very bad time last year, but I know of many cases where the actual feeders, as distinct from the breeders, made a lot of money out of fat sheep even last year. It is obvious that, if the price of lambs is exceedingly low and the feeder can buy them at very small prices and give them a few weeks' heavy feeding on good pasture, he can double the price and make a very good profit. I am not sure, when we provide a subsidy for either cattle or sheep, that the breeder ought not to have the first call, because the feeder, who has the least trouble, very often makes the maximum profit. I would not say that this guarantee of 10d. is excessively generous, but it is based upon entirely wrong principles. Again the right hon. Gentleman gives us no idea of the cost of production, he has no control over prices or selling methods, and there is no guarantee that this subsidy is going to provide tranquillity or stability.
  As far as I remember, not one word was said by the Minister this afternoon on the question of the quality of the commodity. He must know, as a practical farmer, that the time is past and gone when 60 —lb. or 80 —lb. sheep are saleable in this country. New Zealand has set us the example of small carcases, and, unless sheep producers in this country are going to try to produce something comparable with Canterbury lamb, they will be everlastingly coming to this House to seek bigger and bigger subsidies, because they refuse to see what the market demands. Denmark took our bacon market, and New Zealand set out to capture our lamb market. In both cases they scored, and our own producers are doing nothing about it. A maximum is laid down of 27,000,000 sheep, from which point the

  1595
  subsidy commences to decline, but the right hon. Gentleman did not fully explain the reason for this maximum. He might have told us that, if the fattening producers were granted a subsidy, the number of sheep in this country would be very rapidly increased, and they would be landed on a market which could not absorb them at the price, and the subsidy called for from the Treasury would be terrific. That argument would have been perfectly true, because what can be taken off the market in this country has a very close relationship to the spending power of the peopled But he had better not talk about this Bill being a Development Bill when there are skies for various kinds of produce.
  We welcome the reserve of tractors provided for in Part V. As an emergency measure the objects are probably good, but if the right hon. Gentleman has made a good bargain in spending £1,250,000 of the taxpayers' money to buy tractors, why should they remain in storage and be allowed to deteriorate? Why not appoint drivers for them at once, and rent them out to farmers who cannot afford to buy them; or, if the right hon. Gentleman does not want to rent them, why not sell them to farmers on easy terms? I believe he could make a good bargain both for himself and for the farmers. If farms are inefficient owing to lack of equipment, here is an opportunity to help farmers to help themselves. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman, or his Government, is so afraid of the commercial interests between the people who buy and sell motor tractors that he will not think of entering on their domain. Clause 32 deals with that very modest item of £60,000 for 20 years—another gift of £1,200,000 to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation. I recall that when the 1928 Bill was before the House, my right hon. Friend characterised that Measure as the Bankers' Subsidy Bill; and I am certain that that title was correct.
  We set up a machine at that time and provided those who were to run the machine with £650,000 free of interest for 60 years; we gave them £10,000 for 10 years towards administrative expenses, and we took power to invest in debentures not less than £1,250,000 if need be. We understand that Whitehall Trust, Limited, are standing more or less as guarantors behind this Agricultural
  1596
  Mortgage Corporation. Their debentures, as far as we can gather—and if I am wrong I hope the Minister will correct me, because we are entitled to information on this—of £8,500,000 were borrowed at 5 per cent. for 60 years. They were issued at par. There were £2,000,000 shares at 4½per cent., issued at 95. For the £8,500,000 at 5 per cent. the prices over 1938 ranged between 103 and 122½for the £2,000,000 at 4½per cent., the prices last year ranged between no and 114½That being the case, it does not seem that this concern so urgently needs more financial help. Why, therefore, is Parliament guaranteeing £60,000 for 20 years—a total of £1,200,000—unless it is satisfied that agriculture is going to get some real benefit out of it? I know that the Minister said that if the Corporation are going to continue lending money at 4½per cent. they must get some assistance, but are not these people making agriculture an excuse for getting their guarantee at 5 per cent. when otherwise they would not be able to get it so easily? This looks much like a debenture protection society than an agricultural credit society. I think we are entitled to know much more about this subject.
  This is another Measure which completely ignores all the needs of agricultural labour in this country. It contains not a word about housing, about wages or about social amenities in any of the 40 Clauses and two Schedules The Minister and hon. Members opposite are always telling us how kindly disposed they are towards agricultural labourers, but they never come forward in this House with a Bill which is going to be of assistance to agricultural labourers. We can see the drain on the countryside continuing. This Bill, while guaranteeing minimum prices, fails to provide stabilised economic prices on a real understandable insurable basis. We have no costs to guide us, no control over selling methods or price-fixing agencies; and we are leaving, as the right hop. Gentleman discovered in Suffolk last week, thousands of acres of land derelict and thousands of farm buildings out of date; we leave the uneconomic unit in agriculture where it is; and all the Government do is to come to this House for more and more financial assistance.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that there is no one specific for all the ills of agriculture. We concede him that. Our

  1597
  complaint is that the Government have applied only one specific during the past eight years. That has been financial assistance. There has been no real reorganisation of agriculture as such; no attempt has been made to send Government agents through the country to ascertain where farming is good, where it is bad, and where it is indifferent. We know that we have some of the best farmers in the world, but there are many who cannot do themselves justice because of lack of equipment, because of lack of water supplies, buildings, electricity and all the rest. It is because this one specific, financial assistance, has left the industry in 1939 where it was in 1931 that we cannot support the Second Reading of this Bill.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. Snadden: In rising to address the House, I feel sure that I shall receive that indulgence which is so generously accorded to new Members. There are many economic problems awaiting solution to-day, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to find one more worthy of the attention of His Majesty's Government or the earnest consideration of this House than that of agricultural policy. I represent a very large agricultural constituency, typical of our country north of the Border and vitally affected by the Bill which has been introduced by the right hon. Gentleman. It is a Bill which we in Scotland particularly perhaps have been awaiting long and anxiously, and I hope patiently, and I welcome this opportunity of making a few observations in general support of it. I remember reading many years ago about a parson who inquired of a farmer how he was managing to get on in those hard times. The answer seems to me to be appropriate to these times. The farmer said:" Last year, I lived on faith; this year, I live on hope; next year, it may be that I shall have to live on charity." I think it is perfectly true to say that during these years of depression the fanner's faith in his land has been his greatest standby. The hope that the decay going on around him will one day be arrested has persisted in his heart; and the realisation of that hope can come about, as far as I can see, only through a measure of compensation, but not charity—compensation because of the necessity of maintaining a low cost of living in industrial Britain.
  1598
  I shall not weary the House by going into a long list of figures showing the falls in prices, the millions of acres that have gone out of production, or the thousands of workers who have left the land; but one does not need to be an economist, or even a practical farmer, to realise why farmers cannot make a living, or why, if our bankers and auctioneers closed their books to-morrow, probably 50 per cent. of our farmers in Scotland would be found to be insolvent. I can only say, from my own experience, that farmers have had a lean time. They have had to face ruinous prices and intense competition from overseas. We have also had rising costs, and the result is that the state of the industry has become a national danger. In considering the collapse of prices, it seems to me, as a farmer, quite natural that when you turn to the cost-of-living index figures you find a very wide disparity between the figures for" all items including food" and the figures for food alone. Taking the average for the past 10 years, the cost-of-living index for all items, including food, is 16.2 per cent. above the cost-of-living index figure for food only. That is a strange price disparity, and it would be even greater if taken at the farm, so that I conclude that the cost of living is comparatively low to-day simply because of the extremely low food prices. I realise the importance of the cost of living, and I Have no wish at all to belittle that fact, but if, on the one hand, the cost of living must be kept low, on the other hand the agricultural industry must survive, and if it is to survive, as it must from the national point of view, I can see no alternative but to give the farmer some measure of protection when prices fall to uneconomic levels. Unlike the manufacturer, the farmers' principal competitors are our Dominions, and we know that the tariff has been rejected so far as they are concerned.
  This Bill will mean that subsidy will be payable only to the extent that the consumer is enjoying food below the cost of producing that food. This Bill will give the farmer a measure of assurance if he is faced with a slump in prices. We know that agricultural produce suffers more in that respect than manufactured goods. What can the farmer do when he is faced with a collapse in prices? The farming industry is governed by the forces of nature, but the manufacturer can close down or can go on to short

  1599
  time when prices collapse. The farmer must carry on even in the face of subsidised exports. His whole market may be flooded by subsidised exports, and still he must carry on. The manufacturer produces to a definite contract for which he has quoted, but the farmer cannot do that; he must take what he can get when his produce comes to market. Civilisation itself may collapse in ruins about him, but not even that can alter the forces of nature. His crop can only come to harvest at the Almighty's appointed time. Nor has all the genius of man yet succeeded in persuading a cow to produce her offspring one day before she feels inclined to do so. The manufacturer can definitely plan for his contract, but the farmer must plan ahead of any possible contract of sale.
  This Bill, I believe, opens up the way for a return to some extent to the policy of the plough, the policy which I believe is in the best interests of this country. Because of the poor prices for arable produce that we have had in the past I believe we have exaggerated the value of permanent pasture. Much more is to be gained from a system of rotational grasses. The Wheat Act was designed as a plough policy since we know that very little home-grown wheat finds its way into the loaf. Scottish farmers want and need a similar plough policy, but they grow oats instead of wheat. It seems to have been forgotten in the past, that the growing of oats is not only an essential part of Scottish arable farming, but is the largest crop grown in the United Kingdom. When we hear the familiar argument that there are fewer horses on the land and less porridge being consumed, we forget that we have an enormous and expanding livestock population, and that is where oats come in. The reason why we grow oats in this country is that it is contained in nearly every feeding ration, and that is because it is the best balanced of all the cereals. Moreover the straw is indispensable as a fodder, and I am not exaggerating when I say that oat growing is the mainspring of Scottish arable farming, and that if you were to take it away the whole of our agriculture in Scotland would collapse.
  I consider that the most important concession contained in this section of the Bill is the unlinking of the cereal crops. I have always felt in the past that the
  1600
  old method led to bad farming. Now we can hope for a definite system of balanced arable farming. The breaking up of the standard acreage is already appreciated by Scottish farmers, as is also the new method of weighting the average prices. I would like to ask whether, and to be assured that the Scottish market price will be taken and weighted according to the acreage qualifying on the higher basis in Scotland. I should like to congratulate not only the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, but also the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland on the cereal section of this Bill and, while I realise the great difficulties, I think it is going to mean a square deal for our Scottish farmers. It may be some satisfaction to them to know that the effect of this Bill will be felt in the most remote corners of Scotland, including our glens and uplands and even in the Western Islands. I would be failing in my duty to those whom I represent if I did not say" Thank you," because the Bill will put new hope into the heart of the Scottish farmer, whom I know so well.
  That part of the Bill dealing with sheep is just as important to us in Scotland as that part dealing with oats. One-third of the total sheep population of these islands is to be found in Scotland, and the value of mutton and lamb produced is astonishingly high, being approximately 17½per cent. of the total agricultural output of Scotland. If we add to that the value of wool, it will be found that Scotland's sheep flocks contribute one-fifth of the total agricultural wealth of the country. Therefore, it will be seen that Scotland has a very great interest at stake, the whole country stretching from the Cheviot Hills to the Shetland Isles being affected by the Bill. I had hoped that the Government would have seen their way to deal with the question of assisting sheep farmers through the medium of wool rather than mutton. My reason for stating that is that from the national point of view our hill farmers require the most encouragement. Our hill sheep stocks for purposes of grazing utilise enormous tracts of country, those vast hill areas of Scotland, quite un-suited to any other industrial purpose and incapable of contributing in any other way to the prosperity of the nation. I hope that the Government will take every step possible to encourage the use of

  1601
  home-produced wool in the manufacture of cloth for military purposes. That would help the wool farmers a great deal.
  Perhaps I may be forgiven if I approach the measures regarding sheep with more than the ordinary caution generally attributed to the Scot, but I would like to say a word on the question of the standard price. The basic standard price of 10d. per lb. on dressed carcase weight has been defined to-day, and it rather removes my fear. But I am still in some doubt because there is a difference between estimated dressed carcase weight and the actual carcase weight, the one being estimated and the other actual. I wonder whether it is equitable and sound that we should base the subsidy payable on an estimated carcase weight. fn regard to the" ceiling" restriction imposed in the Bill is it not running counter to what must be the general ultimate objective of agricultural policy? That is not only to put a bottom on the market, but to ensure a gradual expansion of home production. A margin of expansion is allowed for in the case of oats and barley under the Bill, but in the case of sheep, the" ceiling" may come down, not necessarily because of over-production of sheep, but because of the two successive years' restriction following, which might be due to imports. I would ask the Minister to reconsider that section of the Bill. It seems to be rather in the same category as assisting a boxer to his feet only to knock him out altogether in the next second. I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider that part of the Bill.
  In conclusion I feel that the agricultural problem really goes far deeper than merely attempting to make fanning pay. From the national point of view, we have a very much bigger problem to decide. We have, on the one hand, an enormous army of unemployed, and, on the other hand, a depopulated countryside with a great deal of work waiting to be done, It is wrong that that should be the case. Our problem really is to turn out more John Bulls and fewer John Citizens by effecting a readjustment or redistribution of work throughout this country. I believe this Bill will bring about a real reawakening of our countryside, and that our oldest industry, given a fair chance, which it is now going to be given, can, and will, play a very definite part in our national life.
  Mr. W. Roberts: I wish to congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Snadden) upon his maiden speech, and I am sure that the House has shown, by the attention with which it listened to him, that it appreciated his explanation of Scottish agriculture. I would also like to join with him in congratulating the Minister upon his speech in introducing his first big Agricultural Bill. It is an advantage to us to have a Minister of Agriculture who has not only such a wide knowledge of English farming, but who has also studied farming abroad. There was a time in this country when the ills of farmers and farming were considered to be peculiar to British farmers. We were always told in the countryside that farmers in almost every other part of the world enjoyed most delightful conditions and were able to make a very much better living than the farmers in Great Britain. At that time our Free Trade system was blamed for all the ills which befell agriculture. Since then we have had a Government which does not hesitate to introduce protection and that excuse for the fact that farming is not in a very prosperous condition to day can no longer be applied.
  I thought the Minister tried at one: point-to find an explanation when he referred to the diversion to Great Britain of imports which might have gone to other countries. I do not think that, on examination, that explanation will account for the troubles of the particular sections of agricultural produce which are dealt with in the Bill. In 1938 the additional imports of mutton and lamb, according to the figures provided by Oxford University, were one point higher than in 1937; and 1937 was not such a bad year. Certainly the low price of oats is not due to imports. We are all but self-supporting and produce all but 3 per cent. of the oats which are consumed in the country. In fact, the argument that it is foreign competition from which we are suffering is wearing rather thin in these days, and, at any rate, the fact that the imports from the Empire have increased while those from foreign countries have diminished, is a hard fact which makes it very difficult to apply the solution of a restriction on imports effectively to the agricultural problems of to-day. We on these benches have always warned the farming community that the simple and

  1603
  easy way of salvation, of protection and ever more protection offered to them from the benches opposite, was a delusion, and that what protection there was would be protection for the industrialists and not for the agricultural community.
  I was looking the other day at a survey made by Cambridge University of the conditions in East Anglia, and, shortly, their conclusion was that 1938 was the worst year that East Anglian farmers had suffered since the slump in 1932. Therefore we on this side of the House are entitled to ask plainly and simply how the Government account for that fact? Of course, as the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross has hinted, the North of England and Scotland have been waiting for many years for some recognition that there was a problem. After many years of a low price for oats, during which Government assistance has mainly been directed to agricultural products of the South of England, it is rather remarkable that there should be such a hurry at this particular moment to help northern agriculturists. Without dwelling on that point, I agreed with the Minister when he said that there was an agricultural problem all over the world. It is equally acute in some ways in the totalitarian countries where imports have been severely cut down. There is a problem of agricultural labour in Germany, and to-day the farmers of Germany are far from content with the conditions under which they have to work, in spite of the enormous cutting down of imports. In addition to that, in Germany, and in Italy to a lesser extent, there has been a very considerable development of their own natural resources. Probably millions of acres have been reclaimed, but still the farming community are not content, are not prosperous. I am not sure that any country has yet completely solved the very difficult problems to which the Minister referred. For the reason that the Minister seems to realise that this is one of the problems, I welcome those parts of his speech, but, as the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) said, the differences between his general remarks and the actual Bill before us are very striking indeed.
  The Minister hoped that the Bill would be regarded as a permanent policy and not one which may be revised—a comprehensive policy. After all, this is
  1604
  perhaps the most typical of the hotchpotch, patchwork measures of the Government. The only cement in it, if I may change my metaphor, is the financial assistance which each section of the Bill gives. In view of the very difficult position in which farmers find themselves I think there is a strong case for assisting farmers by subsidies. It is undoubtedly the fact that the farming community have not gained the protection which industry has gained, and if they did it would raise the cost of living at a time when there are still millions of people in this country on a standard diet far below that which they should have to produce maximum health and efficiency. I think there is a strong case for the farming community being assisted by subsidies, to be borne not by the consumers as a whole, as protection is always borne, but by the taxpayer who is most able to bear it. Generally speaking, I say that there are two conditions which should be applied to such a system, one is that the agricultural community as a whole should benefit, and the other that the landlord does not get the advantage.
  I believe it is possible to prevent direct Government assistance being transferred to the owner's pocket by increased rents. At least the attempt might be made to do so, and that attempt could be made by providing for more extensive schemes of arbitration. One of the facts which I think is not sufficiently realised is that there is a higher percentage of agricultural workers to farmers in this country than in any other country in Europe or in the world. The percentage is two agricultural workers to one farmer. Hon. Members above the Gangway are, I am sure, very well aware that nobody can be satisfied with an agricultural wage which may average 34s. a week, and if forms of assistance could be devised by which the agricultural worker does receive better remuneration, then I am sure the agricultural community as a whole is entitled to have that assistance. The problem is forcing itself upon the agricultural community, because farm workers are leaving the land. Since 1921 about 220,000 workers have left the land, and the most serious feature is that it is the young men over the age of 18 who are leaving in such large numbers. That is understandable when agricultural workers get 8d. an hour and these young men can get Is. or Is. 3d. per hour as

  1605
  general labourers. I ask the Government whether the other conditions of living on the land can be improved. We have passed an Act to make it possible to build agricultural cottages for agricultural workers, but I cannot hear of any action on any substantial scale having been taken under that Act. In my own district I believe only one house has so far been improved. I think the agricultural community as a whole must face the problem of leisure for agricultural workers. I welcome very heartily one part of the Bill, and that is the arrangements for ploughing up old grassland.
  I was sorry to hear the Minister say that this was an emergency Measure. I realise that it can be regarded as an emergency Measure, but I had rather hoped that the emergency had persuaded the Government to take action which might also develop into a rather new approach, on the long-term basis, to the agricultural problem. I am one of those who believe that wheat is not the basis of British agriculture but that grass is, and that it is vitally important that that grass should be as fertile and as well managed as possible. I believe that it would pay the agricultural community and this country more than anything else to spend money on improving the fertility of our grassland. Many farmers, long ago, before they got £2 an acre, had ploughed up their grassland. I know of a small farm of 80 acres where every bit of it has been ploughed up since the War, and it has paid them to do it. One rather regrets that this policy was not announced at least three months sooner, and then it might have been effective. About 700,000 arable acres have gone out of cultivation in the last seven years—about 100,000 acres a year—and one is glad to hear that the farmers have responded so well already to this proposal, even if it was announced very late for this year.
  I hope also that once having set his hand to the plough the Minister will not look back, and that he will continue this policy by providing the other thing which is essential—and that is the means of draining waterlogged land. I was sorry to hear him repeat that the tractors were to be put into reserve and not to be used until the outbreak of war. That seems an extraordinary and short-sighted policy. There is in many districts a shortage of tractors, and if grassland is to be ploughed up surely it would be right to make the
  1606
  fullest use of all the resources available. I wonder whether the Minister could find time to consider again whether a survey of our grassland could not be made at the same time as this policy is being applied, that it should not be left to chance what grassland is ploughed up and what is not, and that some suggestion should be made to farmers about the ploughing out of so much of the grassland which is an eyesore to this country.
  This Bill will affect Scotland and the North and West of England particularly. I would like to make a few remarks about the arrangements for sheep. It is wrong to look a gift horse in the mouth, and I do not know whether I have done this sum correctly, but if there are 27,000,000 sheep in the country and they all find their way eventually to be slaughtered, that, I assume, means that if the ceiling is 27,000,000, that is the number which will find their way to be slaughtered. That would assume, of course, that they were all only a year old. The figure I would like whoever is replying to give is what is the total number of sheep which will rank for subsidy. For instance, we were told that the subsidy, if paid last year, would have been about £2,000,000. One can only comment again that the fall in sheep prices was as much as 10s. or 15s. per head, and I cannot see that even the large sum spread over the number of sheep involved can amount to any more than a small proportion of that.
  While subsidies may be justified as a way of helping farmers in an emergency, they are no substitute for a flourishing agricultural community based upon a consistent and energetic demand from consumers who can afford to pay and to buy. The story of the fall in sheep prices is an interesting one and I do not think the Minister dealt with it at all when he was speaking. It was not due largely to imports. That was a contributory factor but not the main factor. The main factor was a glut of English-produced mutton, seriously aggravated by weather conditions and by the fall in the price of wool, and also by the fact that glutted markets were further glutted by the refusal of retailers to reduce their price and thus get the mutton into the consumers' hands. Since I made this statement in the House I have the authority for making it of no less a body than the Food Council. They say:

  1607
  " They — meaning the retailers— appear to have maintained an exceptionally high margin of retail over wholesale prices for mutton from October, 1937, until the end of 1938. We hope that butchers will reduce the margin substantially at an early date."
  What I am trying to suggest is that that excessive profit had the worst possible effect on the sheep producer because it dammed up his supply, with the result that the fall in the price to the farmer was quite unreasonable in comparison with the increase of available supplies. That increased margin of the retailer applied equally, if not more so, to imported as well as home-produced sheep. I do not believe you are going to solve the sheep problem in this country by merely handing out doles or subsidies. You have to tackle the problem fundamentally as a problem of distribution, and until you do that you will not solve the sheep farmer's problem.
  I am glad that the Government have to some extent adopted a barley scheme, by which the growers and distillers will pay a guaranteed price for the barley that they buy. I believe their profits in a recent year were round about £30,000,000. Therefore it is quite understandable that the announcement of the Government's scheme has not affected the value of their shares in any way. They will be quite capable of paying a reasonable price for barley. They ought to pay a price which would make it possible to pay the agricultural worker producing the barley for the beer which the people of this" country drink, a real wage and not what he gets at the present time. I would also like to ask whether it is not possible to devise some system by which the advantages, which the agricultural community gets from subsidies will not be passed on to the landowner. At the present time the landowner gets all the advantages arising from improvements which the farmer makes to his permanent pasture, because the farmer cannot claim compensation for such improvements. I think that is one thing which might have been rectified in the present legislation.
  It would seem possible to devise legislation that would prevent the advantages of subsidies, at any rate, being passed on to the landowner. If the oats subsidy is paid at its maximum rate under the Bill, taking the ordinary north country six-course rotation over the six years, the subsidy paid at the maximum rate to oats
  1608
  crops would mean that the farmer was receiving per acre as much as 15s. 6d. every year over the six years. We hope that the subsidy will not have to be paid at the maximum rate. If it were, it would be a very considerable item; and there is no doubt whatever that subsidies are, and will be, passed on to the landowner unless some precautions are taken to prevent it.
  I wish I had confidence that this Bill would put agriculture on to a permanently satisfactory basis, but I do not believe it will. I believe that the farmer is entitled to some assistance at the present time, but I have no confidence that this Bill will give him any permanent relief from the difficulties under which he is suffering. I believe that until you have altered the present land system and have introduced a far more efficient system of marketing agricultural produce, though the fanner may be temporarily helped by these subsidies, in a year or two his position will again become critical.
  7.14 p.m.
  Colonel Gretton: The concluding remarks of the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) sounded like a strange echo from a past age. He brought into his speech criticisms of the landlords and the landowner who lets his land for farming purposes. The hon. Member seems to have forgotten that a very great deal of the land has been sold to occupiers in recent years and that the landowner belongs to a declining class. On all sides one hears the regret at this break-up of estates and the sale of land. In most cases, the occupiers, when they purchase, have to borrow largely, and they still pay rent in the form of interest on the borrowed money; but now they do not get the form of assistance which in the past the landlord was able to give in order to tide the tenants over bad times. I will not pursue that matter further, except to say that if one goes a little further back into the case, one finds that it is drastic taxation which has led to the breaking up of estates, and one hears on all sides regret that the old system of agriculture, which consisted in having a good landlord who would stand by his tenants in bad times, has broken down.
  With regard to this Bill, I cannot think that subsidies are sound as a permanent measure, although there is a great deal to be said for them to tide over a temporary emergency. Every hon. Mem-

  1609
  ber will agree that during the past two years agriculture has been passing through very trying and difficult times. Subsidies are very costly to the State, and except to support and tide over an industry that is very hard hit, they do not seem to be a long-term policy that is sound or likely to succeed in the long run. That part of the Bill which deals with increased fertility of the land is wholly good, in my opinion. I have been a farmer all my life, and my father and grandfather were farmers, as also were my ancestors as far back as I can trace. One gets an insight into some of these things by owning land and farming it oneself. The provisions in another Act for subsidising fertilisers are wholly useful. The ploughing up of deteriorated grassland is sound as far as it goes, but a great deal of this land has deteriorated owing to the bad times and the inability of the tenants or owners farming it to stock it adequately and keep it in good condition. Grassland needs manure and sustenance, and no manure is as good as that which is provided by the stock feeding on the grassland. This is indeed essential for healthy pasture.
  I rose principally to make a few observations on the subject of barley. Provision is made in this Bill for a barley subsidy. The main provision in the Clauses dealing with barley is that for a subsidised price for malting barley, whether used by brewers or distillers. This is an old matter. For some years past the farmers have been complaining, not so much of the price, but of the quantity and volume of barley which they have been able to sell for malting purposes. In regard to the brewers, the reason is very simple, but it is not often mentioned in the House. In 1914, 35,000,000 standard barrels of beer were brewed in this country. I take the standard barrels because they are a better indication of the quantities of material used in brewing than the liquid barrels, which may be of high gravity containing much material, or of low gravity containing comparatively small quantities. In the year before the War, 35,000,000 standard barrels were brewed, and in the last year for which returns are available, 1938, the amount was only 17,500,000 standard barrels—one-half. This is chiefly due to the drastic taxation imposed during the War and since the War, which has reduced the consumption of beer to these
  1610
  proportions. Of course, the figures for liquid barrels have not fallen to such a great extent as those for standard barrels, which are a rough measure of the contents of the beer.
  The Brewers' Society has always expressed anxiety to help the farmers to grow good malting barley and to pay fair prices for the barley which they purchase for brewing. They first made a suggestion that an import duty of considerable dimensions should be chargeable on all imported barley, with a suitable preference for Empire barley, and a drawback on barley bought for feeding purposes. That appeared to be impossible and could not be carried out at the time owing to trade agreements, commercial treaties, quotas and so forth. International reasons made it impossible. It is only during the past year that there has been any considerable complaint by barley growers of low prices for malting barley. Hitherto there has been great anxiety among all barley growers to get into the malting category and not to be left in the feeding class, where prices are definitely and substantially less. This year there has been the complaint that much barley sold for malting was sold at too low a price. That, of course, was the fact. The brewers cannot give fancy prices. They can give the full market prices, but they are business men, and cannot give prices above the market prices of the barley which they buy. All was well until this year when owing to the abundance of grain crops, whether wheat, barley, oats or otherwise, there was a general fall in world prices.
  The brewers then proposed that there should be a scheme based on a minimum quantity of barley purchased for malting and brewing and a fair minimum price. Objections were raised to that, not by the Ministry, but by the barley merchants and maltsters. The Brewers' Society prefer a scheme of that kind, because they consider, and press urgently for consideration by the House and the Government, that any guaranteed prices which the brewers pay should actually reach the grower of barley and not be subject to any rake off in the form of hidden profits by the middle man or by anybody else.
  The scheme in the Bill is admittedly only a temporary scheme. My right hon. Friend said that the Ministry is going to work out a scheme based on a minimum price and a minimum quantity. The Brewers' Society, with some misgivings

  1611
  and a little unwillingly, have accepted the scheme in the Bill. It is a scheme in the form of a levy on standard barrels on all brewers. Obviously, there are great objections to this scheme, which does not get. over the difficulty about the levy not reaching the grower of the barley. The grower of the barley will get a subsidy on acreage and not on the amount produced, and the farmer, who gets a lesser price, will get no more from the subsidy than the farmer who gets a higher price. So much for the matter from that point of view. From the point of view of the brewers, the levy is unsatisfactory and unsound because it is made equally on all brewers, those who pay higher prices for barley that is British grown and those who pay comparatively low prices. There are many who pay good prices and use large quantities. The scheme is manifestly unfair as between brewers and brewers. But as it is for one year only, and the Brewers' Society and the brewers generally recognise that something must be done to get over the present difficulties, they consent to it, and will help in working the scheme for one year.
  In conclusion, I am very glad that the Minister is dealing with sheep. There is no doubt whatever that the assistance given to the sheep industry will be of more widespread and greater benefit to agriculture generally than any other subsidy given under the Bill. All farmers who have farms of any size keep sheep, whether they be fanners in the hills and mountains of Scotland and Wales, or whether they be farmers in the Lowlands, pastures and arable land. In past years, sheep have been the backbone of British agriculture. When prices fell, as they did two years ago, the position of agriculture became most serious, and in some districts that fall, combined with the failure of the beet sugar this season, has put the finishing touch on the farmers. If the sheep industry can be put on a sound and paying basis, it will do a great deal to revive agriculture. The hon. Member for North Cumberland referred to pastureland. If the farmers cannot afford to breed or buy stock in order to stock the pastureland adequately, it will go into a bad condition. I and many others have been shocked and pained to see good pastureland over wide areas in different parts of the country steadily
  1612
  deteriorate owing to bad stocking. There must be adequate stocking if the grass is to be kept in a good condition. The majority of fanners have just enough stock to graze the land and keep it going, but not enough to keep it properly grazed. This Bill is a temporary Measure, and I only regret that it is so costly to the taxpayer, but I venture to submit to hon. Members that it is worthy of support and that we ought to give it a Second Reading.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. Hopkin: I believe there is general agreement in all parts of the House on the fact that agriculture to-day is of greater national importance than ever, and I believe it is true to say that there is the same general agreement on the fact that this national asset itself is to-day in a bad way. It does not take a great deal of observation, in going through our countryside, to agree with the opening remarks of the Minister and of my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) that what farming needs more than anything to-day is more capital. I think it is equally clear—and it is a vital fact—that the countryside is being depleted of labour, and that that depletion has led to one of the greatest problems that farmers have to face today, namely, the problem of labour. I believe that in the future all parties will have to put their heads together to see how this problem can be solved. I speak for the county which I represent, and their experience is that farmers to-day, for one reason or another, are totally unable to get the labour that is necessary for the running of their farms. The test of this Bill is this: Will these proposals help to put more men on the land? The answer to that question we shall not be able to know, perhaps for one year, perhaps for more than one year, but if this Bill is to help agriculture itself, or indeed is to help the wider national interest, it must mean that through these proposals more men will be engaged on the land. The Minister has said that he believes—and I respectfully agree with him—that more than 1,000,000 men could be put on the land, and I hope that this Bill will be the means of putting, not 1,000,000 men on the land, but at least more men on the land.
  I desire to deal mainly with Part III of the Bill, which deals with fat sheep. This affects vitally the farmers of West

  1613
  and Central Wales. There can be no shadow of doubt at all that last year the prices of sheep throughout the whole land, but particularly in Wales, were disastrous, and I entirely agree with what the Minister said when he argued that in the national interest we cannot allow again such prices to prevail. On the whole, the farmers to whom I have spoken are satisfied with the 10d., but they do not expect to get a great deal from the price insurance of the sheep, because, taking out the two bad years 1932 and 1938, the general average price for the remaining years was over 10d. I desire to ask the Minister three questions. First, is it now perfectly clear that edible offals are not included in the dressed carcase weight? Secondly, have the standard prices for the different months been worked out? If so, is it possible for the Minister to tell us what the standard prices for the latest months are? When the Minister does come, in reorganising the stock conditions, to fix these standard prices, I hope he will remember the Welsh farmer. He knows very well that for one reason or another the Welsh farmer has to sell his flock in August and September, in order to get his rent and because he has not the necessary feed. I would ask the Minister to see that for these two months, for the reasons that I have given, the figure will be kept as near 10d. as possible. Thirdly, have the weights of the two classes into which the sheep have to be divided been fixed? If not, may I respectfully suggest that the weights of the lower class should be from 22 to 32 lbs. and for the higher class from 33 to 56 lbs.? I dare say the right hon. Gentleman has considered and rejected the proposition that it might be just to have three grades. I do not know, but if he does fix three grades, he may think that from 24 to 32 lbs., from 33to 40 lbs., and from 41 to 56 lbs. would be grades which would give sheep-owners in the different classes fair play. He will recognise that if there are two grades, there must of necessity be certain cases which will work very hardly against the man who has small sheep.
  I desire next to put one point to the Minister that will be of very great importance to the fanner in working this scheme, and that it is the settlement of the market price. I hope the Minister will see that the market prices are obtained in a fair and a just manner, and not, as they
  1614
  are at present, in the slap-dash way of asking the auctioneers quite casually what his prices were. Auctioneers are human, and, of course, they put up the very best prices. They boost their own prices in order to attract attention to their particular market, and I am told by farmers that they are astonished sometimes to hear over the wireless certain prices which are given from the very market where they have sold their beasts that day. On these prices will depend the amount which will have to be paid to the farmers under this insurance scheme. I do not know whether the Minister will consider the question of an independent tribunal to administer this price insurance scheme. I must say that there are many farmers, particularly in Wales, who regret that the Minister has put the ceiling of 27,000,000 sheep in the Bill. In this they acquit the Minister of any wrong; they say, rightly or wrongly, that it is not his fault at all, but rather the dead hand of the Treasury which has fallen on the Minister and for this purpose, anyhow, has strangled him. I do not know whether he will be able to alter this. I doubt it, but anyhow he should know that farmers will suffer in two ways from putting the sheep population so low. First of all, when the numbers are increased, prices naturally will fall, and then when they have already fallen they will be hit a second time by the 10d. being reduced.
  This part of the Bill is quite inconsistent with the Government's fertility policy. The Government are giving cheap lime and slag, and they are now giving an additional £2 per acre for ploughing up grass land, and I would have thought the whole of their policy was directed to more production. I hope, if it is possible, that this ceiling of 27,000,000 will be altered, because in the hilly parts of Wales, the high and the poor ground is the most costly to make fertile, and I am told that the only animals they can keep at such a high altitude are sheep. This scheme is to be worked by the Livestock Commission, a commission composed, I think the Minister will agree, very largely of beef men. Will the Minister consider putting more sheep experts on to the Livestock Advisory Committee; and may I further press on him that the most expert sheep men in the South come from West and Central Wales? I hope that he will not forget that while other farmers in other parts have help for beef and for wheat.

  1615
  these farmers in Central Wales have no help at all, and they depend entirely on sheep.
  Just a word or two on the proposals for ploughing up grass land. Those of us who come from West Wales note with very great pride that two great men, Sir George Stephenson and a Welshman, Mr. William Davies, are now coming into their own. Nothing but praise, in my judgment, can be given to the proposals for ploughing up grass land, but here again may I ask the Minister to consider this suggestion, which the farmers are urging sincerely upon him, and that it is extend the date to 31st December? He is a practical farmer, and he knows what the difficulties are. From now until 31st October he knows that there is the hay harvest, then there is the corn harvest, then you have to see about your sheep and the ewe trade, and by that time you have got well into October and there is no time at all for ploughing. Besides that these are the summer months, when the ground is too hard to put the plough into it at all.
  May I stress the appeals which have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley regarding tractors? I believe the scheme is an excellent one. I have in a small way advocated the adoption of a tractor scheme in the counties. Here is the scheme coming into actual operation, and I would beg of the Minister to put it into operation at once in skeleton. There are tremendous difficulties and the greatest he will have to face will be the getting of suitable mechanics to drive the tractors. You cannot find them in the streets. The most careful selection will be required. When the emergency comes the right hon. Gentleman will have other things to think about, and I would ask him to carry out this scheme at once. It is now being done in my county. I have a friend who is using a tractor for himself and for the farmers round about, to the great advantage of the land. I understand that you can get a good tractor for £149. On that basis it would be easy to put a number of tractors in a county and to work the scheme in skeleton form.
  It is useless for the Minister to give £2 an acre for ploughing up land and to assist the farmer with lime and slag, and for the farmer to put in expensive grass
  1616
  seed, if in the end we are simply going to provide food for rabbits. Along with this scheme there must be a Bill for putting down the rabbits. To-day they are a greater pest than ever, after this dry weather. We are suffering in West Wales very much from the rabbit pest. I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will help in every way to deal with this pest. I have seen a beautiful field just outside the town of Carmarthen, which has been cultivated under instructions from the people at Aberystwyth, a beautiful field of fine grass, and half of it has been eaten by rabbits, which had come from one or even two miles away. When once they start to eat a good thing, they go on with it. I hope the Minister will build up the whole thing by seeing that everything he can do will be done to pass a rabbit Bill into law.
  7.48 p.m.
  Colonel Sir Edward Ruggles-Brise:The agricultural community as a whole will welcome the introduction of this Bill, and when they read the remarks made by my right hon. and gallant Friend in introducing the Bill, they will appreciate the fact that in the Minister of Agriculture we have one who has perhaps a closer understanding of the agricultural point of point than any of his predecessors who have stood at that Box. So far as the House is concerned, I am sure that hon. Members in all quarters, whether they agree with all the particulars of the Bill or not, will agree that in introducing a long, difficult and complicated Measure he did it with the greatest clarity, and his speech was of the utmost assistance to hon. Members.
  The speech fell into two main parts. The first dealt with the broad grounds of justification for the introduction of the Bill, and the second was explanatory of its details. In view of the fact that we shall be discussing at some length the details of the Bill in Committee, I do not propose to say anything about them, but I should like to enlarge on the broad grounds of justification for the introduction of the Bill. Before doing so, I should like to refer to the attitude taken up by the Labour Opposition in moving the Amendment. Their own Amendment admits that the industry requires some measure of assistance, and goes on to emphasise the necessity to:

  1617
  " establish the agricultural industry upon a sure foundation and thus enable it to play its part in a national emergency."
  The very terms of the Amendment concede the case that in the opinion of the Labour party the agricultural industry is not yet on such a sure foundation as to enable it to play its full part in time of war. It is precisely for that reason that His Majesty's Government have for the past seven years been pursuing the policy of building up the industry step by step. An industry consisting of so many branches cannot be dealt with in one comprehensive Measure, and when the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) gave a catalogue of the various Acts of Parliament which had been passed during the life of the present Government he was only testifying to the patience and the persistence with which the -National Government have shown their determination to build up the great industry of agriculture—the food-producing industry of our island. Surely, the method which is before the House to-day is another step in the building up of a completely reorganised structure.
  I share the surprise of my right hon. Friend at the reason given in the Labour Amendment for the rejection of the Bill. It says that they wish to reject the Bill because it:
  " ignores the necessity for improving the lot of the agricultural worker."
  My right hon. Friend showed quite clearly that many measures have been specifically taken to that end. Surely, amongst the main things which affect the lot of the agricultural worker is the question whether the industry in which he works can survive and continue to give him his employment and' his wages. If the industry is condemned to continue at a price level below the cost of production, where is the agricultural worker to find either his work or his wages? Therefore, it is a curious reason that the Labour party have put forward for the rejection of the Bill. Seven years ago when the Wheat Bill was before the House the Labour party voted against it on the Second Reading, but when we look back to the years since that Act became law, can anyone deny that over the whole of the arable area of this country that Act has proved of inestimable value, not only to the farmer, but to the agricultural worker?
  Mr. Ridley: Seventy thousand agricultural workers have gone.
  Sir E. Ruggles-Brise: The hon. Member says that 70,000 have gone. Seven hundred thousand would have gone if it had not been for the assistance that particular Measure brought to the arable counties. I believe that but for that fact the arable districts would have become largely derelict. The present Measure is designed to fortify by artificial means, that is, subsidies, the price levels of certain products which are liable to violent and frequent fluctuations, which cause the price level to fall below the cost of production. We all know that subsidies are never popular, but it is well to remember that the great majority of other industries in the country enjoy the general advantage of the tariff which is denied, except in a very small degree, to the industry of agriculture.
  It is also well to remember when we are discussing the question of subsidies that great sheltered industries like the building trade or the coal trade have all at one time or another had to receive considerable subsidies from the State. They are sheltered industries, whereas agriculture is the most unsheltered of all industries, exposed, as my right hon. and gallant Friend said, to the continuous blasts of imports brought from the ends of the earth. In spite of what was said by the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), for years past the imported foodstuffs which have come into this country have dominated our food market. The world has sent its surplus foodstuffs into this country. The food problem is not a new one, but to-day it is taking a new phase and we shall have to give more attention to it. Why have the difficulties which face agriculture been so stubborn of solution? I believe it is because the problem of our home food supply has never yet been faced as a whole. There are two halves of it, the home-produced half and the imported half. I believe the National Government is the first Government in this country that has begun to tackle this problem as a whole, on the one hand by regulating the imported half and by fortifying the price levels of the other half, the home-produced part.
  I am glad that in this Debate there have not been so many accusations hurled against the British farmer as we

  1619
  have had in our previous agricultural Debates. There is a clearer recognition of the fact that it has not been through his backward methods or his dilatoriness that he has been undercut by his competitors in other countries, who have been able to produce and send their food supplies here at lower cost than the home producer can produce them. We all know that foodstuffs which come to this country at this moment are in many instances assisted by various devices, subsidies or otherwise, and that many factors which enter into the cost of production in this country do not enter into the cost of production in overseas countries. There is another point which has not been sufficiently recognised in this connection, and that is that one of the chief things responsible for the underselling of the home producer of food in this country has been the exploitation of the soil by his competitors in other countries.
  It is notorious that virgin soils have been ruthlessly violated to supply this country with food—my right hon. Friend mentioned the prairie lands of Canada and the United States—and we know that the result is appalling erosion of large parts of the face of the earth. Millions of acres are derelict, and will remain so for ever, in various parts of the world. The crops wrested by this system of exploitation may have been produced cheaply for the time being, and so cheaply were they produced that they undercut the producer in the home market here. I wonder whether hon. Members above the Gangway have ever considered the point that these exploited eroded acres in many foreign lands are directly responsible for the derelict acres that we have in this land. They have put our acres out of commission. The ultimate cost to the countries where this exploitation has taken place is, of course, incalculable, but the loss is not confined to those countries. It is a loss to the whole world. In fact, erosion going on in so many parts of the world is presenting a serious world problem as regards the future world supply.
  Meanwhile it is clear that we must utilise every acre that remains to the full if we are to maintain a food supply at all. I believe that the farmer here who has struggled on through long periods of adversity has always possessed the ambition to increase and maintain the fertility
  1620
  of his own farm. It is true that there have been instances where he has failed through force of circumstances, otherwise there would be no need for that part of the Bill which affords assistance for a ploughing-up campaign. In a policy directing the future of the food supply of the country the whole picture should be envisaged as one. I believe the home grown and the imported parts of our food supply should be treated as complementary rather than as competitive. I believe that a policy should be worked out on these broad lines and I think the Bill, coupled with the measures already taken by the Government, shows that they have recognition of this fact. I should like to see a full statement of agricultural policy made on these lines, because I feel that the future of the food supply of the country is not really secure, whether in peace or in war, unless we take a very broad view indeed of this all-important factor.
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and, 40 Members being present—
  Sir E. Ruggles-Brise: Hitherto there is no doubt that the country has been lulled into a false sense of security with the whole world ready to fling food into it at almost any price from any quarter. I believe the day may well be at hand, and perhaps sooner than we think, when we may be thrown back much more on our own resources for our necessary food, and it will not necessarily only be in the event of war. It may occur even in time of peace. We have already lost for ever hundreds of thousands of acres of our agricultural land. It is of vital importance that we should lose no more, and that every single acre capable of being cultivated and producing food shall be brought under a proper system of cultivation. As I understand it, that is the purpose of the Bill, and surely it must be a purpose which should commend it to the House. We have a vast multitude of mouths to feed in these small islands, and our acres are already far too few for the purpose. I believe the Bill is designed to see that we at least allow no further deterioration in the amount of food that we may be capable of producing. The cost in money may be high, but surely it is nothing else than the payment of a national insurance premium to safeguard the food supply of our people. The great food producing

  1621
  industry must be kept on its feet and those engaged in it, whether employers or employed, are doing work of vital national importance and they must be assured of a chance of existence at least equal to that enjoyed in any other industry.
  8.9 p.m.
  Colonel Wedgwood: The hon. Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Snadden), in an unusually able maiden speech, likened the economic life of the farmer before the introduction of the Bill to faith one year, hope the next and charity thereafter. I cannot help thinking that the present Bill ably represents those three admirable qualities—faith, that the Government can overthrow the laws of nature and economics; hope, that the beneficiaries will vote straight; and, finally, that the charity of the towns to the country will bless both those who give and those who receive. Last night I listened for an hour and a half to a speech by the Finance Minister of New Zealand, very much the same as the speech the right hon. Gentleman has made. He showed how in New Zealand they had fixed wages and stabilised prices at a level which allowed a reasonable profit, how they had controlled imports, how they had, in fact, dealt with every side of industrial and agricultural life. One of the results was that the production of butter had nearly doubled in two or three years, and it was rather upsetting the position because the price had come down. I cannot help thinking that the Government to-day are embarking on very much the same course as the Labour Government in New Zealand. I hope it will be equally successful in raising the standard of comfort, and that it will even survive what I consider the inevitable fate of all such schemes, of producing inflation and losing on the swings what we gain on the roundabouts.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman's scheme follows on many similar ones. We had the Corn Production Act, and we had the establishment in this country of beet sugar production. We have had every interest established and every established interest pressing for more, and I do not think this is by any means the last of the Measures that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will introduce to assist agriculture. So far as the rest of the country is concerned, those who are not interested in agriculture, I think they may well begin
  1622
  to press for similar treatment, and perhaps on better grounds. One of the curious things about the Government's desperate efforts to raise prices and restrict production has been that, while they are spending money on keeping up the price of foodstuffs, they are at the same time spending money in the universities to increase the productivity of each ear of grain. They are using science and expensive research in order gradually to produce from an ear of corn a fully-baked loaf. The Mendelian theory is being worked out, While with one hand the Government are restricting production in order to keep up prices, with the other, with equal generosity, they are endowing research so as to increase production and lower the price. It is all part of this great game of fooling the constable and trying to achieve by dictatorial, authoritarian and bureaucratic methods results which are directly contrary to the law of nature. The worst of all these experiments is that, to make them work, you have to keep on year after year bringing in Act after Act to remedy those opportunities which nature always secures of getting back to sound economics, and to deal with the power which nature possesses of overcoming the most skilled bureaucracy.
  Before I pass from his question of faith in the power of Governments to override nature, may I refer to what everybody must realise is the inevitable result of trying to benefit the landed interests? We have wiped out rates on agricultural land. We have endowed agricultural land by fixing prices. We have introduced restrictions on imports into this country. We go on doing these things and everybody knows that in the long run those benefits, given at the expense of the rest of the community to one industry which uses as its primary raw-material the land itself, must, in the long run, mean more rent to the landlord while leaving the tenant farmer in exactly the same position as before. The process does not take place at once. The landlord is not going to put up the rent of the farm now, but when the time comes for a change in tenancy, inevitably the landlord gets the best rent he can for the land.
  Mr. Macquisten: No, if he is wise he takes the best farmer.
  Colonel Wedgwood: The landlord makes the best bargain. His agent takes the best offer he can get, and the rent rises,

  1623
  and everything that is done in this way for the so-called agricultural interest is really in the long run for the benefit of the landlord. It is intended to be for the benefit of the landlord, and the people who howl most for these concessions are the landlords. I said that the second reason for the introduction of this Bill was the hope that the beneficiaries would vote straight. I can only express the hope that they will vote straight for those Members of the Labour party who support this Bill. I am a voice crying in the wilderness, but the shades of Gladstone and Cobden look down on me. I have no wish to interfere with any of my hon. Friends getting the votes of the farmers, if they really think that they will get those votes. But I do appeal to those seats of learning and of sound economics and sound sense, the universities. I appeal to the representatives of the universities, who have not any farmers among their constituents, at least to remember that if endowment is going at all, they have first call on it. They have always had first call on endowments and the endowment of knowledge, and learning is probably of more benefit to the community at large than even the endowment of landlords.
  Then what about the third point—the charity given by the towns to the country? Speaking as a townsman, I resent the continued attempt to induce us to pay out money for the benefit of the landed interests. We have had this all through history. For a time the Anti-Corn Law League checked the tendency. For a short time the interests of the towns carried some weight. They did break the Corn Laws; they did break Protection; they did secure a fair field and no favour for our export trades and for our manufacturers, which resulted in the glorious Victorian age. Nowadays when each year sees new and successful attempts to rob all those who are producers by hand and brain, for the benefit of the squires and of the people who ruled this country to ruin for many hundreds of years, I think it right that at least one voice should be raised to demand for the whole of this country a fair field and no favour, to protest against the robbery of the towns for the benefit of the country and to say that neither this Government nor any other Government, will ever be able to strait-waistcoat humanity, or direct the production of wealth in this country.
  8.21 p.m.
  Sir J. Lamb: I am glad that the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) is again in his place, because I wish to compliment him on the manner in which he moved the Opposition Amendment. We have grown to expect from the hon. Member a good speech when he deals with any agricultural question, but I do not agree with what he said, however much I may have admired the way in which he said it. I sympathised with the hon. Member in the fact that he was making the best of a rather difficult case. I know that in his heart he approves of the objects of this Bill, though he does not approve of the methods by which it is proposed to achieve those objects. They are not his methods, but if the hon. Member produced his own Bill, perhaps we might find it as easy to criticise his methods as he has found it to criticise the proposals of my right hon. Friend. I apologise again for having interrupted him, but I did so for the sake of clarity on the subject of prices. The hon. Member said he agreed with stabilisation of prices. So do I, but I want him to remember that the stabilisation of prices is not, in itself, sufficient. The price must have relation to the amount of production and the market for the production.
  I wish to join my voice to those of hon. Members who have praised the way in which my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister introduced this very complicated Bill. The clarity of his explanation was appreciated by all who heard it, as it will be, I am sure, by those who will have the pleasure of reading it. I welcome the Bill as an agricultural Measure, but I do not welcome it on that ground alone. I look upon it as a national benefit and a national insurance. In those two respects the Bill is very much overdue. I thank my right hon. and gallant Friend for having, after a very short period in office, by dint of very hard work, produced this Bill to-day, although it is overdue. There has been, as hon. Members have pointed out, a great deal of legislation in the past for agriculture. The trouble has been that, while the intentions of such legislation were good, the legislation did not produce the hoped-for results. The reason for that is to be found very largely in the fact that it was piecemeal and sectional legislation. When an attempt was made to improve one section of the industry, those

  1625
  who have been engaged in other sections immediately rushed into that section, with the result that it became overcrowded.
  Now this Bill comes to round off the legislation previously brought in. It has been said before, and I repeat it, that for a long time agriculture has been fighting a very unequal battle. In comparison with other industries the battle of agriculture has been a very unequal one. When legislation for the safeguarding of industries was introduced agriculture was left out, while all other industries had the advantage of it. Reference has been made to countries abroad which produce more food than is necessary for their own requirements. That surplus has been dumped here, into a free market, at prices which not only did not pay the producers of it—or if it did pay them it was only at the expense of the fertility of their own soil—and which it was impossible for producers here to compete with. Under the Ottawa Agreements, again, we were not given the same advantage as other industries, because the Dominions were given a free market. Many of the foodstuffs which come from abroad come from the Dominions, and we have to receive that cheap food.
  Mr. Broad: Shame.
  Sir J. Lamb: I agree with the hon. Member that it is a shame, though I do not know what he means by" shame."
  Mr. Broad: I said derisively that it was a shame that they should send us cheap food.
  Sir J. Lamb: I did not mean that it was a shame that they should send up cheap food, but that, it was a shame that while that food was coming here growers of food in this country should not have the opportunity of disposing of their produce at a fair price. Later there was the Import Duties Act, and we were excluded from that. Therefore, I think I was right in my assertion that agriculture has for a long time been fighting under unequal conditions as compared with other industries. Rural workers have been referred to. Those connected with agriculture are, in the mass, the biggest consumers of the manufactured articles which are produced in this country—they are the biggest section of consumers. If manufacturers are to have the advantage of that big market those who make up that market must
  1626
  receive sufficiently remunerative prices for their produce to enable them to buy. All industries are connected in this sense, that the interests of one are the interests of the other. One industry is the consumer of the products of another industry. Agriculture as a whole is the biggest consumer of manufactured articles in this country.
  Mr. Alexander: I hope that somebody who can speak with authority, like the hon. Member, will produce figures on that point. We have heard it repeated so often that everybody in agriculture has come to believe it.
  Sir J. Lamb: I am not prepared to give the figures now. I did not assume that the statement would be questioned. It. has been repeated so often and never denied that I did not take the precaution of bringing the figures.
  Mr. Alexander: You are repeating what is not true.
  Sir J. Lamb: It is the fact. There never was a time when the home market was so important to the manufacturing interests of this country as it is to-day, and whatever may be agriculture's proportion of purchases in that market no section of home buyers can be neglected if the home market is to be maintained.
  Mr. R. J. Taylor: Subsidise the wages of the agricultural workers.
  Sir J. Lamb: I will deal with subsidies in a moment. If hon. Members will let me make my speech in my own way I think it will be better. One of our great difficulties to-day is concerned with the balance of trade, but there is another balance which is equally important, and that is the balance between the primary and the secondary industries. Throughout the world we have not got the balance that is desired, because the primary industries have increased to such an extent that they have over-balanced the secondary industries. That produces one of our difficulties. It is a truism, and it is almost unnecessary that I should have to say it, that any country which neglects its agriculture is bound to suffer. That is not only the case here. All countries in the world are finding it out and are bending all their energies to seeing that their agriculture is put upon a sound financial basis. Production from the soil

  1627
  is a wealth the value of which no country can deny.
  I said that this Bill was in some respects a measure of insurance, because food produced at home is an insurance against famine. Those of us who remember the last War will know that there was an occasion when we in this country were very near to starvation. Therefore, the food we produce here, in the quantities we can produce it, is an insurance against possible—I hope never probable—starvation in time of war. The Bill also provides another form of insurance, because whatever food is produced in this country serves to a certain extent to control the price of the food which comes in from abroad. Suppose we produced no foodstuffs in this country. Does anyone think that in that case the foreigner would send his foodstuffs here at the price he does? Naturally, no. He would have complete control of the market, and his prices would go up, because the foreigners could then" rig the market" in their own favour. Therefore, the food we produce here has a stabilising influence on the price of the food we import.
  I am sorry that the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) is going out, because there was something I wanted to say to him. I have never contended that a subsidy went to the farmer. I know he will listen to me after that, because he and his friends have all said that that was so. It does not go to the fanner; it goes through the farmer to the consumer. [Hon. Members:" No!"]. I am glad if hon. Members do not appreciate that point, because it gives me the opportunity of showing that it is correct. The consumer continues to get the benefit of food at prices at which it can be brought into this country simply and solely because the subsidy is given to the farmer to make up the difference as regards what they would otherwise have to pay. Then the right hon. and gallant Member spoke about" those interested in agriculture." I should like to know who is not interested in agriculture. Some people do not recognise that they are interested in agriculture, but everybody here who is a consumer is interested in agriculture, and his interest should be primarily concerned with agriculture in this country, for the reasons I have previously given. The right hon. and gallant Member asked
  1628
  for the same treatment for all in the matter of subsidies. Other industries have had the same treatment.
  Colonel Wedgwood: What?
  Sir J. Lamb: They have had the advantage of tariffs. Agriculture has not had the benefit of tariffs. That advantage—a subsidy, assistance—call it whatever you like—has been received by every other industry, and it is only in the form of subsidies that agriculture has been given the advantages which other industries have been enjoying for so long. Then there was a reference to rents. All who have anything to do with agriculture know that there is a control of rents in this sense, that if a man is asked a rent which he thinks is unfair he has a right to go to arbitration. Then the right hon. and gallant Member said the subsidy was an endowment, and spoke about the endowment of knowledge. I am not going to say that I object to endowments being given to knowledge, but food is quite as important as certain classes of knowledge.
  Colonel Wedgwood: You are not endowing food, you are not making food cheap; you are endowing landlordism.
  Sir J. Lamb: I still contend that we are endowing the consumer, because the subsidy enables him to get food at lower prices.
  Mr. Messer: Why not give it to him direct?
  Sir J. Lamb: The farmer should get it more directly, but you will not let him have prices which are economic. The condition of the industry, which is acknowledged by all, is a proof that the Bill is very much overdue. The difficulties of those who are working on the land, the farmer and more particularly the worker, who is the first to go, are a serious matter for this or any other country. Numbers which have been stated here before, and which 1 will not repeat now, indicate how many workers have left the land. It is imperative that something should be done to enable such people to remain there. Complaint has been made that nothing has been done for the agricultural workers. Hon. Members opposite claim that the Agricultural Wages Act was passed by them, and it is a claim which is justified, but if hon. Members opposite read the Bill they will see that it gives the right to pay wag

  1629
  such as the industry can afford. Those words are in the Bill. I look upon this as a Bill containing machinery by which wages can be distributed, but we are giving the materials for distribution, and that is a very different thing. Consequently the Bill has great possibilities for the workers on the land.
  I do not want to criticise the Bill. The time for doing so will be when the Bill is in Committee, and it would take too long to go into details now, but there is a considerable amount of criticism, particularly in regard to the figure of 10d. in relation to sheep. I regret very much that the Bill is rather complicated. It has become the fashion perhaps inevitably, for a great deal of our legislation to be by way of committees and commissions, and a great deal of the machinery for the manipulation of the Bill is done through committees. Consequently there is a certain amount of in-definiteness about the actual procedure. If the Bill were clear with regard to the conditions as to the weights of the sheep it would probably have a considerable bearing upon the price that is paid. I regret that the Bill is somewhat invidious in some of the details as to the weights of the various carcases that are to be subsidised.
  We are doing all we can to fertilise the ground. Those who know agriculture know that sheep have always been referred to as" those of the golden hoof," because sheep will fertilise the land very much better than any kind of manure, particularly that type of land which it is difficult to fertilise in any other way. It is very much improved after the grazing of sheep. The number 27,000,000, which has been put as a ceiling, might very well have been left out. It is claimed, and with justification, that agriculture, like every other industry, must provide that which the public is demanding; undoubtedly the public are now demanding smaller joints, not only of beef, but of mutton. It has been difficult to bring some of the larger Downs sheep to the weight which the community are demanding, but a great deal is being done in this matter and farmers are doing all they can to accommodate the public by providing a smaller joint. I hope that the Minister will notice that a reduction in the size of sheep is a question of weight and has a direct reference to the 27,000,000 which is put down here. If
  1630
  you reduce the weight of the carcase of the sheep by 2 lbs., aggregately it will come to a very considerable weight. The imports are all given in cwts. Consequently you may break the proportion which the home market is now giving and that which the foreigner and the Dominions are receiving, because in one place you are taking the basis of weight for imports and in this place you are putting a ceiling of numbers, which may be varied considerably. It will take more in numbers for the less weight of sheep. I do not know whether I have made that quite clear to hon. Members, but when the Minister works it out he will no doubt see that it is a matter which should receive attention when he is considering whether he should alter this ceiling of 27,000,000 sheep.
  With regard to the ploughing of grassland, hon. Members who had experience during the War will remember the difficulty of getting rough old grassland into proper cultivation, and will see the wisdom of this being done before the necessity actually arises. Thousands of acres, with which I had to deal in an official capacity at that time, did not produce anything in the first year because of the difficulty of getting that type of grass into proper cultivation. That might not have been very serious last time, but it will be more serious next time, because if there is unfortunately another war it will come very suddenly and may carry on for a considerable time. I therefore approve very much of the ploughing-up programme included in the Bill, and I give it all the encouragement I possibly can.
  It is said that we now have 26,800,000 sheep in the country. That may be an accurate figure, and I do not know whether the Minister and the Government think that it is indicative of the prosperity of the sheep industry. It may be just the opposite. If you are living in an area where sheep fetch a bad price a very considerable number of sheep, particularly ewes, may be carried over to another year. That position would not be indicative of prosperity, but of the fact that it did not pay to sell sheep and that the people concerned had had to retain them, and for that reason they would have a larger number of sheep. Therefore, we have to be very careful in regard to that ceiling of 27,000,000. We have waited a very long while for this Bill. It co-ordi-

  1631
  nates to a large extent all the other Bills which have been passed, and consequently I will not do anything to delay it getting a Second Reading and a successful passage through its other stages. I wish it prosperity, and I congratulate the Minister on having brought it forward to-day.
  8.44 p.m.
  Mr. Price: I have listened with much interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb). Perhaps he will forgive me if I do not follow him into the economic labyrinth into which he went at the beginning, as to whether the subsidy went to the consumer or, as was contended by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), to the landowners. I would rather deal with the concrete proposals of the Bill. On one point, however, that he raised, with regard to the ceiling for sheep, I do not share his view that that is undesirable. I know that my Welsh friends do not agree with me, because they are so dependent on the sheep industry in Wales, but even there I think it is proper that there should be a limit to sheep production. Hon. Members who know districts like the Highlands of Scotland and the Welsh hills will realise that a great deal of harm can be done by over-sheeping. There is no doubt that the spread of bracken, which is one of the greatest menaces to agriculture in this country, is largely due to the present number of sheep, and that a greater degree of mixed farming would be advantageous in those areas.
  The Bill embodies the principle of standard prices for a certain number of commodities. That principle was laid down originally at the Empire Conference at Sydney. It was accepted by the National Farmers" Union in their very important statement of policy, and standard prices have also been accepted by Labour party conferences at various times in the past; so I think it may be said that this principle has found general acceptance throughout the House. The present Bill, in making this the sheet anchor of its policy, is, I think, a great improvement on other Bills that we have had from the Government in this Parliament. There has been far too much inclination to stress the reduction of imports and the restric-
  1632
  tion of consumption as a means of raising prices, and in that respect this Bill is much better than others that have gone before it. When, however, one comes to the application of the principle, one may have one's doubts in certain particulars. My doubts are very great in connection with Part I of the Bill, which deals with oats.
  We all know the reason why oats have been brought in in this way. The Scottish farmers have felt that they should have a show here comparable with that accorded to the English farmers in regard to wheat. I think, however, that it is a very dangerous method. What this House has to consider is not what crops certain farmers would like to grow, but whether the particular crop that is going to be assisted is in the interests of the general national economy—whether it is desirable that it should be increased beyond its present production, and, if so, by how much. If standard prices are applied, it should be done, not for particular localities and certain farmers, bat in relation to the interests of national production as a whole. Oats are an animal food. The greater part of the oat crop is produced" in this country for consumption on the farm. That is not the case with wheat. Wheat is a cereal which the farmer cannot consume on the farm without a considerable measure of processing and extraction. It cannot be fed raw to livestock without serious digestive difficulties. Wheat, therefore, is much more dependent on the general market and on world market conditions than oats, and it cannot be argued that, because this much has been done for wheat farmers, oats farmers should be treated in exactly the same way. There was a case for assisting the farmers of East Anglia, where wheat is very largely grown and is an important crop without which the rotation of crops would be very much upset. But the same argument cannot be applied to Scotland, where the fanners would grow oats in any case, whatever happened, whether there was a subsidy or not, because oats are an important and valuable feeding stuff for their cattle.
  I should have thought it would have been better to have sought some other means of assisting the Scottish farmers. I should have suggested increasing the subsidy for the ploughing up of land, and giving consideration to keeping land under the plough, rather than this

  1633
  method, which may seriously upset the market. The danger that I see in standard prices so fixed is that Scottish farmers will start putting oats on the market, thereby increasing the production and sale of oats, reducing the price, and leaving the position as bad as it was before. Surely some other method could have been found for assisting cereal farmers in Scotland than by applying to Scotland conditions taken straight from English wheat growing. What I am afraid of is that we may have a revolt of the taxpayers and the industrial population when they see large sums paid out to cereal farmers, so that we shall not have that good feeling towards agriculture which is essential in an industrial country like this, if agriculture is to receive proper consideration. We have to remember that cereal cultivation is not really the basis of our agriculture here. Livestock is and must be the basis of our agriculture, both in peace and in war, and cereal cultivation is only a part of the means by which we grow feeding stuffs for our livestock.
  At the same time, as the Minister has fixed a standard price for oats, and has decided on Part I of the Bill, I am inclined to think that 8s. a cwt. is not an unreasonable figure. I should, however, like to see, and perhaps this point can be raised in Committee, means set up for obtaining far more information about the cost of production of oats in this country. A certain amount of information has been obtained, but it has not been collected or collated in a proper way. I myself have grown oats for many years on the heavy clay soil of the Severn Valley, and I know that they have never cost me as low a figure as 8s. a cwt. But I have figures produced by certain universities which show that there are farms on certain light lands where the cost of production of oats has been as low as 4s. a cwt. There is, therefore, a very wide margin. In a bad season, with a dry spring, the yield may be very poor, and in such a case the cost may go up to as much as 20s. a cwt. Much depends on rainfall and the state of the soil. On the whole, I am inclined to think 8s. a cwt. not an unreasonable figure, but I would stress that we ought to have, what my hon. Friends on this side moved to obtain the other day in Committee on the Wheat Amendment Bill—and what we should again move to obtain—that there should be means whereby we could
  1634
  have more information about the cost of production of oats, and whereby we could be sure that what oats are marketed are marketed in a proper way, so that the producer gets a fair share of the deal.
  For my part, I think Part IV, which gives the subsidy for ploughing up land, the most valuable part of the Bill; for, as I said before, here we have the basis of our agriculture. Professor Stapledon, of Aberystwith University, has shown that, by ploughing up and reseeding, we can get a far better yield from our grassland, worked on a temporary rather than a permanent grass basis, than ever before. The greater part of our pasture is old, and this rejuvenation is one of the means by which agriculture can be immensely improved. My hon. Friend the Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) is not here, but, as I know he is very nervous about these subsidies going into private people's pockets, I can inform him that I am not going to get any of the subsidies. After seeing experiments at Aberystwith last year, I ploughed up some land; and unfortunately I was far too early to get subsidy. But I can now foresee a very great change coming over our grassland management as a result of Part IV.
  In regard to Part III, I think the Minister is right to fix the standard price for dressed carcase of sheep at 10d. a pound, and I hope he will resist any attempts to raise that level. The recent price of lamb on the West country markets is 35s. each on the hoof; that is equal to 13d. dressed-carcase weight. I have worked out my prices and costs for sheep production over the last eight years, and I find that only on three occasions—in 1933, in the Autumn of 1937, and, of course, last year, when prices were lowest of all—did prices fall below what corresponds to 10d. a pound dressed-carcase weight. I think that for all the other periods prices were well above this rock-bottom price in the Bill. I think the Minister, in the interests of the taxpayer and the industrial population, should not fix a price higher than that. The policy should be to fix the price at rock-bottom below which it is impossible to produce sheep except at a loss.
  I hope, however, that the Minister will do something in regard to encouraging quality sheep. I put a question to him when he made his statement in the House three weeks ago as to whether anything

  1635
  would be done in this direction, and, in reply, he indicated that it would. I know it is much more difficult, in the case of sheep than of beef cattle; with a small animal like a sheep it is much more difficult to tell how it is going to cut up when it is on the hoof than with a big animal like a bullock; but I hope the Minister will tell us what the method of encouraging quality mutton is to be. Is it to be the method of prescribing standards of dressed carcase, and thereby giving an indirect premium to the best carcases, or is it to be the method laid down in Clause 13, (3, a and b)? It seems to me that it is just possible, by setting these standards for dressed carcases and the relation between them and the animal on the hoof, to get some kind of proportion which may be useful.
  The real trouble with the sheep industry is marketing, which is still in an unsatisfactory state. During the last 50 years the consumption of mutton and lamb in this country has increased by 4,785,000 cwts. All of that has been imported. The production of mutton in this country is the same as it was 50 years ago. All we do is to produce mutton, in the main, for the rural areas and small towns. The big cities take theirs almost entirely from abroad. The reason is that we have no proper selling organisations for pushing the home market. The Livestock Industry Act has been on the Statute Book for two years, but nothing has been done in this direction. The real competitor of the English sheep is not the foreign sheep, but another English sheep. Every time there is a little over-production in this country the price collapses, as it did last year. Until that problem is dealt with by the Government, the position in the sheep trade will not be satisfactory. I welcome many of the provisions of the Bill; but, in my opinion, my hon. Friends are abundantly justified in moving this reasoned Amendment, in order to call attention to the dangerous principle, particularly in regard to Part I of the Bill, of handing out public money without effective control.
  9.4 p.m.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: In rising for the first time to address this House, I would ask the indulgence which is customarily granted on these occasions, which has already been granted once to-day, and which hon. Members, mindful perhaps of their oven humble beginnings, are always
  1636
  glad to accord. I do not desire to be unduly controversial on this occasion, therefore the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) will perhaps forgive me if I do not follow him directly in his statements, with which I and very few Scotsmen would agree, regarding oats, but I will refer to that question in due course.
  The Bill which we are discussing seeks to make provision in certain circumstances for the payment of considerable sums of money to the agricultural industry, and the first point I want to make is that we are not seeking to vote money to individuals as such, but to make provision for the future of a basic industry. I have heard the term" subsidies to farmers" used upon many occasions, and used in such a way as to suggest that what we wanted to do was to give this money to farmers, and that was our primary concern, whereas, in fact, our primary concern is with the land of Britain and with the whole future of our countryside. That point was well brought out in the Debate which we had here on Friday last upon the Board of Trade Estimates, when the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), speaking from the benches opposite, and in reply to an interjection.. said:
  " If a subsidy is used for the purpose of enabling landlords to profit, I am opposed to it, but if it is used with the avowed object, and succeeds in that object, of increasing production, improving fertility, making for efficiency and raising th:; standard of living, I am all in favour of it"—! Official Report, 9th June, 1939, col. 813 Vol 348
  To which I would only add: '' And so say all of us." I do not stand here as a lover of subsidies. I share the: wish, which more than one hon. Member has expressed already this evening, that we could do without them. I find that every scheme which the ingenuity of Whitehall Place can devise makes fresh inroads upon the liberty of the individual producer, until one is almost tempted to ask," Is the game worth the candle?" I think it is. I am certain that without subsidies and Governmental assistance we would have to resign ourselves to a further decline in our agricultural production, to an accelerated drift to the towns, most sadly marked in the case of the younger men, and to the continued reversion of arable land to scrub and bracken. If that process continues unchecked life in the countryside will resemble life in a mining

  1637
  village long after the pits around which that village sprung have ceased to be worked; a place of idle hopelessness, dreaming of its past and fearful of its future. No place that for raising that healthy human stock which always in our history has replaced the wastage of our towns. No place that for raising from fertile fields that honest meat and fresh food which gives health in times of peace and a vital measure of security if war should come. No place this to impart to our national life that stability and balance which is learnt of the good earth and deeply engrained in country folk.
  No one who knows the countryside can be in any doubt as to the extent of the depression. My right hon. Friends the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State for Scotland have both paid personal visits to the stricken countryside. Perambulations of this kind are of double benefit. They must, I am quite certain, imprint upon the minds of the Ministers themselves a vivid picture of the kind of conditions that they are trying to alleviate, while on the other hand they encourage farmers in the belief—quite rightly in the case of this administration—that they are not forgotten. Those of us who represent agricultural constituencies in this House can testify to the need of a real revival of farming. There is no doubt at all about the need for this revival in Scotland. There is in the constituency which I have the honour to represent a large farm, some 750 or 800 acres in extent, which is famous in the annals of the Aberdeen-Angus herd. In the old days that farm required seven pairs of horses; to-day such cultivation as is required for its tumbledown acres is done by a single pair, and there is no tractor. The same is true of many farms in Aberdeenshire, where once flourishing arable farms are now little better than poor sheep runs.
  I make no apology for bringing to the notice of this House some rather remarkable facts concerning the history during the past 15 years of eight farms in a single parish in the Howe of the Mearns in Kincardineshire where the land, as everyone who knows it will testify, is as good as any in these islands, a district which has been famous for centuries as a centre of enterprise in agriculture. These cases have not been specially selected to prove a case. They have been chosen because they are all farms which happen to adjoin the property of a friend of mine
  1638
  who, being interested in matters of this kind, has been good enough to place this information at my disposal to-day. It is obvious that one does not want to divulge the names of farms or to give the name of the parish concerned, so I will give to each farm—and there are eight of them— a figure.
  Farm No.1 is a farm of about 180 acres. After 40 years' effort, one tenant retired penniless, and he is now employed as a greenkeeper on a golf course. His successor has also lost everything and is now a farm hand in the neighbourhood. Farm No. 2 is a larger farm of about 280 acres. The owner entered with the help of a legacy of £4,000 inherited from an uncle; he lost everything in the 10 years, before his death, and his widow is now keeping a small shop. He was succeeded by a cattle dealer who was compelled to-sign a trust deed after three years. Case No. 3 is a croft, and the occupier of that croft went out, it is believed, penniless; in any case, he is now working as a farm labourer. Farm No. 4 is about 160 acres. It was kept going in very good condition until fowl paralysis caused great loss and the farm had to be given up. Farm No. 5 is one of 100 acres. The tenant gave up after heavy losses and is now managing a country inn. Farm No. 6 is about 400 acres. The tenant entered with £4,000 advanced by his father, a Leith stevedore, and after 10 years he was declared bankrupt, the creditors receiving 5s. in the £Farm No 7 is about 250 acres. The tenant, after farming successfully for over 50 years, bought his farm, but from 1924 onwards he was faced with severe losses and upon his death the farm was wound up with no loss to the creditors, but with practically nothing for the family. Farm No. 8 is about 700 acres; and it is the exception which proves the rule. Success here has been due to a fortunate, if somewhat rare, combination of abundant capital, hard work, thrift and astute cattle dealing. Even so, had the £20,000 sunk in this enterprise been invested in Government securities it would have earned a comfortable income without any effort at all and with very little risk. But in this case the abilities of a sound, practical farmer and a singularly successful cattle dealer appear to have gained very little.
  I make no apology for bringing these examples to the notice of the House, because I think they will give to those

  1639
  with understanding minds some idea of the anxieties and struggles, indeed the very human tragedies, which often lie behind our farming history. I am sure that these facts do not apply only to the counties I have mentioned. I have heard of many similar cases elsewhere in Scotland, and in England and in Wales. The farming depression has caused very great misfortune all over the land, and I say that no one can be complacent about this kind of thing. When arable land reverts to grass, or when farming proves unprofitable, two things are reduced, firstly, the production of food and, secondly, rural employment. We must somehow secure the prosperity of mixed farming which has been the traditional strength of our farming practice. Every schoolboy knows that the basis of mixed farming is the rotation of crops, and if this system is to pay the farmer must be sure of receiving an economic price for his basic cereal crop. The reason for the depression in the agricultural industry in Scotland lies very largely, and has lain, in the low price of oats. If the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T Williams) is really anxious, as the Amendment which stands in his name suggests, to establish the agricultural industry upon a sure foundation throughout the land, then he must do something to give an economic price for oats. For years my colleagues on these benches have pleaded for a proper recognition of this Cinderella of the cereals. They have done so for two reasons, first because of its importance as the pivotal crop of the rotation—for everybody knows that for climatic reasons it is not possible for farmers in Scotland to be certain of harvesting satisfactorily a good crop of wheat—and, secondly, the point mentioned by the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Snadden), the importance of the oat crop as animal" feed," and it is upon that point I want to say one or two words.
  The decline of arable farming, which has amounted in the United Kingdom to something over 30 per cent, in the last 60 years, has seriously affected the supply of home-produced roots, straw and cereals for the winter feeding of stock, and of all cereals the oat crop is by far the most important for stock feeding. We import between one-quarter and one-fifth of our present requirements of animal feeding stuffs and pay no less a sum than
  1640
  between £30,000,000 and £40,000,000 a year for this importation. I suggest that it will be good business if we could divert some of this large sum of money to the production of more feeding stuffs from our own soil; it would be good business in time of peace, but an imperative necessity in time of war. War, and the threat of war, alters many values, and the dual importance of the oat crop as an animal food and as the basis of a rotation establishes its claim to the substantial assistance which is now proposed for it. Some of us who represent Scottish constituencies had hoped for what we call cereal parity. By that I mean to say, that because the market has consistently throughout the century assessed the oat crop at a not lower value than that of wheat, and because the English farmer is obtaining a guaranteed price based on 10s. a cwt. for his wheat, that the oat producers should receive similar assistance. We have not got that, but I think we need not complain. I am sure that we are thankful for that which we are about to receive, and we are grateful, too, for the welcome indication that we are not forgotten. The battle of the oats has been won, and a Militiaman among the veterans would like to give his humble thanks.
  Sir George Stapledon has said," If you want to grow the best grass you must plough it." What he described in the" Times" yesterday as" this, innocent little announcement of the £2 subsidy," is not only wise from the point of view of improving the fertility of poor land, it is wise also from the point of view of increasing our self-sufficiency in home-produced fodder. I have no doubt that there is a considerable acreage of permanent grassland and hill and other rough grazings capable of improvement, and the sooner we realise this and act upon this realisation by a proper use of the plough, by a right selection of seed mixtures, and by a skilled application of controlled grazing, the better it: will be from the national point of view.
  The Minister of Agriculture has estimated that there will be, at any rate, 250,000 acres ploughed up by means of this assistance before the end of October. I wonder what his estimate is of Scotland's contribution to this total? I would like, if I may, to put that as a question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State who, I believe, is to

  1641
  reply to this Debate this evening. It is often loosely assumed that Scotland has very little permanent grass, whereas in point of fact we have over 1,500,000 acres, and a great deal of that acreage would benefit from the plough. The Scotsman's cattle—than which there are none finer in the world—feed behind the plough, and the Scotsman would be very ready to take advantage of this subsidy were he able to do so. But he is going to be debarred in a great many cases by the practice we have of letting grassland upon seasonal grazings until 31st October, and if we cannot get possession of our grassland until 1st November we cannot plough it up in time to get the benefit of the subsidy. I hope very much that upon consideration the Secretary of State will be able to persuade the Treasury to make a concession to meet cases such as this by extending the date for ploughing to the end of the year, if it is possible, but at any rate, to the end of November.
  Just one word more, and I have finished. To what extent are these proposals going to make for the expansion of our home production and of our agricultural employment which I know the Minister desires? What about these Treasury brakes, these limitations, these" ceilings"? Of course it is true that the proposals do not in themselves provide for any spectacular expansion, but they are not a final instalment. It was a happy inspiration to call this a Development Bill. My Oxford Dictionary gives the meaning of development as a" gradual unfolding." No title could be more appropriate. This charter of mixed farming is but one more milestone on the road to a complete agricultural policy.
  9.29 p.m.
  Mr. Richards: It falls to my lot to congratulate the hon. Member on his maiden speech, and I do it very wholeheartedly. It is not often in the experience of this House, except after a General Election, that we have an opportunity of congratulating two hon. Members on their maiden speeches on the same day, and it is very interesting in this case, as well as in the former case, to reflect that both of them come from agricultural constituencies and are obviously connected with the industry
  it is inevitable in a Debate of this kind that we should wander somewhat from
  1642
  the Bill. I think we were given a good precedent for doing that in the speech of the Minister upon which so many Members have congratulated him, and I should like to add my humble congratulations. I think he set the precedent of taking a very wide view, particularly in the early part of his speech, of the problem facing us. It is an extraordinarily difficult problem, because it seems to me that agriculture is faced with two very serious difficulties. First there is a difficulty which we have heard emphasised to-day of foreign competition. That is very often put across from the wrong point of view. It is not that the foreign farmer can produce more grain per acre than we can in this country—I think we hold the record of production peracre— but he is able to distribute his costs over a much larger number of acres and is able to put on the market at a comparatively cheap price a large quantity of cereals with which we in this country cannot compete. That is a fundamental factor in the consideration of this problem, and I do not see that this Bill is going to do anything—I do not know that we can expect it—to remove that difficulty.
  That difficulty is bound up with another. Agriculture in this country is in competition with other industries. If you look at the various censuses of production in this country you will see that the production in industry—I use the term generally, apart from agriculture—is, as a rule, much more remunerative than in agriculture. So agriculture is faced with a double competition, the competition for capital and labour in this country and the competition against the foreign countries that are more fortunately situated for production than we are here. If we are going to have an agricultural policy—I am neglecting the foreign situation for the moment—we have to face this question of competition, and the relative importance of agriculture as compared with industry in this country.
  There is a great deal of loose talking about the fundamental importance of agriculture. I am not prepared to deny that this is an old industry and a most important industry, but it is very difficult to decide between agriculture and, for example, coal, as to the relative importance of the two industries in the life of the country at the present time. We owe our pre-eminence as an industrial

  1643
  nation, the fact that we have 45,000,000 people instead of 5,000,000 which we had at the time of the Norman conquest, entirely to industrialisation. There is no more land in this country. I admit that production has improved very considerably, but we have to remember that by no stretch of the imagination could we really keep 45,000,000 people in this country at the standard of life they enjoy at present were it not for industry. Industry in the sense of producing for foreign markets has made our country the great country it is. We have to remember another thing. Our position in that field appears to be very seriously on the decline. We are not the pre-eminent industrial nation that we were 20, 40 or 50 years ago. One sometimes has the unhappy feeling that we are losing our pre-eminence in that respect permanently. Consequently there is a call for a revaluation of the life of this country. Are we going to continue as a great industrial nation? We have been the greatest industrial nation in the world. We are not that any longer. It seems to me that we are going gradually to decline in many respects as an industrial nation. Consequently the question ought to be posed: Are we going to do something to revive agriculture and not to forget agriculture as we were inclined to do in the nineteenth century? Are we going to do something really to establish agriculture and to make it more attractive than it is at the present time?
  My criticism of the Bill is that it does not outline an agricultural policy, except the policy of subsidies. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) put the case very well when he said that there are two objections to subsidies, the first being that they are not a policy. I cannot see that in any part of this Bill the subsidy is correlated with any policy. I may be referred to Clause 4, by which an attempt is to be made to exercise some kind of control over agriculture. I put this seriously to the Minister. On 4th June, he will get a list of the people who are growing oats on their farms and who will be competent to make a claim for the subsidy in respect of those oats. In August or September, that crop will be harvested. I suggest that the Minister and his Department, efficient as they are, and the number of agricultural organisers
  1644
  we have up and down the country, doing excellent work, cannot possibly in that time exercise any effective control over the growing of those cereal crops. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), who opened the Debate from the Opposition Benches, was fully entitled to say that this provision is a mere pretence, and, as I think he called it, eyewash. I do not think that there is in the Bill any attempt to correlate the subsidies, which may be right or wrong, with a definite attempt to control the type of agriculture that we are to have in this country. There ought in every case to be such correlation.
  The right hon. and gallant Member for Burton said that the second objection to subsidies is that they are expensive and there is no end to them. I do not know whether the House realises the difference between its general attitude towards agriculture and its general attitude towards insurance, for example. In the first sentences of the Bill, it is stated that it is an attempt to give effect to the intentions of the Government regarding price insurance for sheep, oats, barley, etc. With great respect, I suggest that this is not a price insurance Bill. The hon. Member for Kincardine (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) attempted to justify it by saying that it is insurance in the case of war. That is a great fallacy. If there is a war, which we all hope there will not be, starvation will face this country. Whatever we do in the matter of ploughing, raising crops, keeping sheep, and all the rest of it, we shall be faced with starvation in this country in the first two months of a war. Consequently, the Bill is not insurance in that sense.
  Nor is it insurance in the other sense, for there is no payment. Let me compare the position with insurance for sickness and unemployment, with which we are very conversant. There is an insurance scheme against unemployment, and the basis of it is a contribution that is made by the person insured against the contingency of his being unemployed. When he is unemployed, he is paid out of the fund that is built up in that way. There is nothing of that kind in this case. Some years ago, when the insurance scheme looked as though it would break down, Parliament took over part of the liability and said that it was too heavy a burden

  1645
  for the insurance system, and that, therefore, the State would bear the burden. Every year Parliament makes a contribution. I find that last year the contribution was about £40,000,000. Dr. Venn, speaking at the annual meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science in 1935, calculated that the benefits which agriculture had received from these successive subsidies amounted to £40,000,000 a year. I venture to suggest that Dr. Venn knew something about the subject on which he was speaking. My point is that there has been no attempt to control the spending of the subsidies, but that Parliament has made a vigorous attempt to control the £40,000,000 which it gives every year towards unemployment insurance. It has set up a Board, it has drawn up regulations, and it has applied the means test, to which hon. Members on this side are so much opposed—all because we are spending £40,000,000 a year on unemployment. In 1935, we were spending £35,000,000 a year on agriculture, without there being any vestige of control. If the Minister adds the subsidies that are now suggested, which may amount this year, roughly speaking, to over £11,000,000, it brings the total mentioned by Dr. Venn up to about £50,000,000. I am all in favour of subsidies if they are correlated with some real system for the development of agriculture.
  I want to refer to one other point that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin). The objection to subsidies is that they are distributed arbitrarily. For many years now, there have been subsidies for beef, beet and wheat; that is to say, the richer parts of the country have been enjoying subsidies for a number of years now. The small Welsh farmer, of whom my hon. Friend spoke, the hard-working, poor, it may be parsimonious fanner, has not enjoyed any of these subsidies. That is another of the weaknesses of subsidies— they do not meet the evil universally, as it were, but give a subsidy to this part of the industry and then to that part of the industry. As far as the Bill is an attempt, for the first time, to do something like justice to the Welsh farmers, I welcome it, although I am very critical indeed of the whole conception of subsidies, which is no substitute for a real agricultural policy.
  9.43 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: The hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Richards) is always very interesting and informative, and it is always a pleasure to listen to him; but I thought that in the last sentence of his speech he gave an answer to at any rate three-quarters of the earlier part of it. He was right in saying that in the past those of us who live on the Western side of a line drawn downwards through the Pennines and straight down to the English Channel, have received very few benefits from this House, but I can see in this Bill, as I could see also in the Act which gave us assistance with regard to lime and basic slag—assistance that was badly needed by those farmers who had suffered so very much from depressed prices—a linking up between production and necessary assistance and the improvement of the land. I think that the first step which really turned the mind of the farmer back to the improvement of the land was the Act which gave him assistance in purchasing lime and basic slag.
  Those of us who are accustomed to travel up and down the country, and especially on its Western side, are familiar with the very tragic sight that meets our eyes, of land which we know has been under the plough in the past, but which has not known the plough for at least 50, 60, or even 70 years. That land has been going steadily back, and there is the tragic story, which has been mentioned so often in the House to-day, of the people leaving the land. I think I have already told the House of the tragedies in my own county, but they will bear repetition. My county is purely agricultural, with no industry other than agriculture, and its population to-day is less than the population in 1800 and two-thirds of the population that the county held 100 years ago. The land is becoming less and less valuable, and, what is more, smallholdings are getting fewer and fewer. As these holdings die down, they fall into larger farms and become just a sheep walk, and what was once productive soil is now just capable of holding a few sheep.
  I know the welcome that this Bill has received in my own county and, in fact, throughout Wales. There is only one criticism that I would make, and it has already been made by the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin) in the very

  1647
  excellent and informative speech which he made. It is that the time is much too short. One realises the difficulty of the Minister of Agriculture and that he has to take what is given him, but this is put forward as a Measure for an emergency, and I only wish that this were a Measure for the continued better cultivation of the land and that it extended well beyond this year, until land which used to be productive is land again made productive. But may I beg of the right hon. Gentleman to try once more to get an extension of the time? When he first mentioned this to the House, the time, I think, was limited to 30th September, but he then got an extension to 31st October. That, however, will not help the hill farmer. As the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin) has so very well said, his hay harvest is coming, and after that he will have to turn his attention to the crops, and then, of course, he has to deal with his sheep on the hillside. When is he going to get the time to put the plough in the ground, especially when he has not to-day the horse power that is necessary? The horses have gone; they have been sold, and they no longer produce the shire horses in my county that they used to produce, at any rate not in the same quantity, although they produce the same quality. The tractors are not available, so how will the farmer get the plough into the land before October? Moreover, it so often happens in my part of the world that the best ploughing time is towards the end of October and November, and even early December, and then the bad weather comes again. We know from experience that we dare not plough now or, say, in July or August with a hope of seeding it down in the spring. Therefore, I ask the Minister to try and get a further extension of the time.
  I also see in this Bill a linking up with the sheep farming. In my own county of Montgomery we have over 500,000 sheep, and just 12 months ago I was pointing out to the House that within a period of a few months, poor as my farmers were, they had lost a capital value of £500,000, that practically they had gone down £1 a head last year. I know what the lambs were fetching. Instead of fetching, as they used to do, something between £2 and £2 10s., they were bringing in only something like 20s., 23s., and 4s. I
  1648
  sent to the Minister the other day an account that had been received from the abattoirs in Manchester in respect of beasts sent in August and September. This Bill gives them a new hope, and the only thing that I would suggest to the Minister is that it should not be 10d. If he could add another halfpenny, or certainly if it were a penny, it would solve the whole of this situation. But we are grateful for the fact that, at any rate, we can get for a time a steady price. We have always urged that if we could only secure for the farmer a steady price over a period of years, we could leave the rest to him. He would certainly then be able so to conduct his farm that he would assure this country of the best production that the land could give. For these reasons, I welcome this Bill, and I am sure that it will bring a new hope, at any rate, to the Western farmers.
  9.52 p.m.
  Mr. de Rothschild: We all know the old Virgil tag about the happy cultivator. This also applies to the Minister of Agriculture to-day. The right hon. Gentleman has had an Ossianic paean of praise from the Scottish Members in all quarters of the House, and from Welsh Members he has had almost a second edition of the "Mabinogion."I want to refer as shortly as I can to the Bill and to echo what was said by the hon. Member for one of the Welsh constituencies;, who pointed out that this Bill does not tackle the agricultural problem broadly. It is true that it provides various measures of assistance to agriculture, and also gives special assistance to the sheep-farming industry and to several main crops, but this assistance is piecemeal as ever. When I look at this compendious document, I feel that surely it could have been put into five different Bills just as well. The aim of the Bill seems to be generally to keep the various branches of the industry at their present level of production, and not to bring them up to a higher level, and it is proposed to achieve this by nicely calculated measures. But I submit to the right hon. Gentleman that it will scarcely make for expansion of production, although I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that he has spoken in the past of the vast potentialities of the land.
  I am not proposing to go into the question of the adequacy of the various sub-

  1649
  sidies which it is proposed to give; I shall leave that to the right hon. Gentleman and his assistants, with the calculating machines pat at their disposal. I shall confine myself to a few broad observations, without wishing to be too critical. I note that the right hon. Gentleman has adopted the principle of price insurance, and I should like to congratulate him on the fact that prices are to be insured at direct cost to the Treasury. I am glad that the principle of the Wheat Act has not been adopted in this Bill, since this places the burden on the consumer and levies taxation through an extra-Parliamentary, extra-Governmental body. It is true that the Wheat Act has worked very well, but the particular features in the Wheat Act are unnecessary, and it could have worked just as well without them. It is true that, as regards barley, the Bill makes provision for the subsidy on the same lines as the Wheat Act, that is, financed in part by a levy on the consumer industries. In the case of barley there may be some excuse for this, because the consumers ,are industrialists, but I am glad that it has not been adopted as a general principle in the Bill.
  There is one point in regard to price insurance which gives me some concern. In Clause 4 power is given to the Minister to withhold the subsidy in case of negligent cultivation. The Clause states that if it appears to the Minister that the crop is unduly small, or has been prejudicially affected by the unsuitability of the land, or by negligent cultivation, or if it appears that the land is reduced in fertility, he may withhold or reduce the subsidy. I agree that this may not be a point for a Second Reading Debate, but it affects generally the Bill which has been brought forward and therefore it is important that it should be raised. The Minister himself will not decide whether the subsidy should be given, withheld or reduced. It will be in the hands of one of his minions, and there should be some procedure for reviewing any such decision.
  With regard to the proposal for breaking up low-grade pasture, Sir George Stapledon gave the Minister a very good lead. Certainly, the proposal is good as far as it goes. I hope that the experience of the present scheme will encourage the Minister to greater efforts towards land reconditioning. The subsidy for the breaking up of old pasture is not enough. No encouragement is given for field drain-
  1650
  age. Only a few days ago the right hon. Gentleman went down to Suffolk and was shown derelict farms there. There are thousands of acres of potentially valuable land which will never be reconditioned by private enterprise, and he ought to put forward as a complement to this Measure a scheme for the acquisition of land by the State or a public corporation, in order that land might be reconditioned as he proposes to do in this Bill.
  I commend the provision for enabling the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation to improve the service. I should like to see a short-term credit service provided by the corporation. Agricultural credit facilities have not been developed in this country for the benefit of the small farmer in the same way as has been done abroad. Many farmers live on credit, but it is not credit given on a scientific basis; it is credit given on overdrafts, or credits from traders. It is a costly system and many people consider it to be distinctly reprehensible. I suggest that if a scientific short-term credit scheme were devised the lack of capital from which the farmer suffers would be made good.
  With respect to the proposed reserve of agricultural implements and tractors, is it essential to hold the tractors in reserve? Why not use them now to break up the land? Could they not play their part in a more ambitious scheme of land reclamation? Why not set up a public or regional corporation to acquire land for reconditioning, and let this reserve of tractors do the work that is required? There is one further question on the subject of tractors to which I should like to direct attention. When the right hon. Gentleman announced his policy on tractors, an 3rd May, he stated that he had information of the number of tractors in this country. Before he attained his present high office he was a tribune pleading the cause of the farmer, and I well remember how petition after petition was made from the National Farmers' Union in order that the tax put on the importation of tractors should be reduced or abolished. Now that the right hon. Gentleman has attained the high position of statesman, pontiff, mandarin or however we may describe him, surely he will pay some attention to what he did in those days. I suggest that it is due to that policy adopted by the Government by their tariff that the nation now has to pay so much money for this reserve of tractors.

  1651
  What are the facts with regard to caterpillar tractors? A tariff was imposed in 1936 in order to encourage agricultural implement makers in this country. What were the results? I put a question on the subject in February, 1938, and asked how many caterpillar tractors had been manufactured in this country since the tariff was imposed. The President of the Board of Trade replied that he had no idea. My information is that there is only one firm that has been producing these tractors, and I understand that the production has been negligible, and that since then the production of this factory has been given up to armaments. Returning to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman on 3rd May that he had taken a census of tractors, I should like to know whether we have enough of these caterpillar tractors. If not, will he urge the Cabinet to abandon the tariff so that the industry can make up the deficiency itself?
  I am not prepared to deny the Minister the measures embodied in this Bill, but I am not entirely satisfied with it as an agricultural policy as a whole. It is called the Agricultural Development Bill. If we are to found a stable, prosperous and efficient agricultural industry it cannot be done on the basis of mathematical formulae to determine whether any given commodity shall have 3d. more or less by way of subsidy. Something much broader will have to be devised so that a greater part of State assistance goes to the industry as a whole and not piecemeal to its components.
  The ploughing subsidy and the fertiliser subsidy are undoubtedly on the right lines, and I should like to see that principle extended, so that the present method of subsidising commodities may be superseded and assistance given to agriculture as a whole as an industry. In that way we should get a more stable, efficient and flexible agriculture than we have at the present time, with more freedom to the farmer than is possible with the piecemeal help which it is proposed to give to him to-day. The form of this general assistance will need the most careful consideration. A labour subsidy has been advocated in some quarters. After this Bill has been passed, perhaps the Minister will think it wise to set up a committee or a Royal Commission to
  1652
  consider that proposal as well as others, and to review and revise the position of the great and vital industry of agriculture as a whole.
  10.5 p.m.
  Mr. Alexander: The Debate that we have had has been on a very important Bill, and it seems a very great pity that on a Bill of such importance it was impossible to arrange for more than one day so that many of the representatives of agriculture who desired to speak might have had the opportunity of doing so. I feel exceedingly sorry that one has to rise at this time and supplant some people who have waited quite a long time to join in the Debate. We listened to the Minister with great interest, because, for one thing, we like him as a man. We like him because he was a gallant citizen of the country in the Great War. When we listen to him on agriculture in his new Ministerial office we may still like him, but we do not like his policy. The very manner in which he explained it makes us more than ever suspicious of the conditions under which his appointment commenced. I am very anxious to put it in that way because we like him, but we are gravely suspicious of the time and circumstances of his appointment and of the policy which will thereafter follow. It was a piece of trade union syndicalism—[Interruption]. That is not amusing. I may be smiling, but it was a piece of trade union syndicalism which, if we were to practise it on this side of the House, would be received with horror from the other side. Here is the president of the farmers' trade union, a wealth, powerful trade union able to dictate to the Government, with its reserve political fund of £70,000, which says in the course of an election campaign," You have got to do this or there is going to be trouble. We will put up our independent Farmers' Union candidate."
  So the Government climbed down with a promise of immediate action, and also a change in the Ministry of Agriculture, and the Minister now is there seeking to deliver the goods required from his appointment as farmers' trade union representative in charge of the source of supply. It is from that point of view that we have to look at the right hon. Gentleman's policy. What I failed to discover at any time during his long and

  1653
  able speech was any real reason for the subsidy. I thought we might at some time or other get some evidence why these subsidies are needed. There was a general statement that the question of price insurance was more or less justified, because the farming industry could not adjust itself as quickly as other industries to a fall in price, but we got no real case for subsidies of the range and magnitude that are postulated in the Bill. I submit, first of all, that there is no justification for the proposed subsidies. Is the condition of agriculture such that it needs this additional subsidy to those that are already granted? I hope the Secretary of State will answer for Scotland. It is a little unfortunate that the Debate has not made it possible for a Labour representative from Scotland to speak, but I interjected during the speech to ask why it was that the Department of Agriculture for England and Wales did not produce each year a return of the kind which the Department for Scotland produces, and which gives something like evidence as to the huge profits that are being made. I had the last return which has been furnished to us, in respect of the year 1936-37.This is not a kind of return which can be said to apply to only one or two farms, for the Department in Scotland has been very assiduous in its duties and it has taken 274 farms—a very wide selection. Of the 274 farms on which they give a return of profits, only 17 are shown as making any loss at all. Five made a loss of over £250, and 12 made a loss of less than £250; 67 made profits up to £250; 77 made profits between £250 and £500; 90 made profits of from £500 to £750; 88 made profits of £750 to ££1,000; 18 made profits of £1,000 to £1,249;and 25 made profits over £1,500 for the year, after providing for all the necessary costs and charges that had to be met.
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: I was wondering what the co-operators made on their farms.
  Mr. Alexander: I shall be glad to tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman. The last full return for the year 1937 summarises the whole position. [Interruption.] I would give individual results for 1938, but I have not the complete return. Neither has the Secretary of State for Scotland. The return of profits, before meeting interest and depreciation, is
  1654
  £36,000 for the year. Some farms did less well than others. I am not at all disconcerted by the hon. and gallant Gentleman's interruption. Taken over all, we did not make a loss, though we have to pay on the average much higher wages, because all our farm workers are trade unionists. We also have to pay a qualified manager, with a house on each farm, which is equal to the income in many cases of the actual tenant farmer. On top of that we made £36,000 on the year, before charging interest on capital. So I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman has scored a point there.
  I have given the Government evidence of these profits in Scotland, and yet you are going to raise the subsidy for oats-it is only in Scotland that it can be justified on the basis of a cash crop—to 14 times the difference between the market price and the standard price. No case has yet been made out for passing a Bill on that basis. It may be said that, if you look at 1937–38 and the end of 1938, you had a rather different position in prices. Yes, but you also had an increase in subsidies. I serve upon the Advisory Committee of the Livestock Commission. I see the money that is going into Scotland with regard to the subsidy on fat stock. Very canny they are in the whole business. I must take off my hat to them. I like to see a subsidy which produces better farming, but there is no question about the way in which the. farmers in Scotland are reaping the benefit.
  Let us take the position with regard to England and Wales. We are not told any real basis on which to judge whether the industry needs a further subsidy. I have waited for it, but we have not had it. I can produce the usual kind of evidence that the Minister of Agriculture himself sees from month to month in the trade union journal, the" Agricultural Worker." I hope he reads it. As one good trade unionist to another, if he is representing the Farmers' Union, with all their wealth, now that he is a Cabinet Minister surely he will have a look at what the representative of the poor agricultural worker says. Let us see some recent returns of what farmers leave behind them when they go beyond the bourne. They are always coming here as if they were on the verge of bankruptcy, but I find here is one who left £67,000, and other amounts are £28,000, £20,000, £16,000, £15,000. And so it

  1655
  goes on. Strangely enough, they are not all confined to England and Scotland. Wales comes in as well.
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of this arises from farming, and how much from other industries?
  Mr. Alexander: Because some of them may have been engaged in other industries, it does not follow that they have not made money out of farming. I have enough experience of hon. Members opposite who have been engaged at one time in productive industry, or in banking and who have made their fortunes to know that they will not argue that all their money was made out of one industry. Here and there on the fringe of London and of other large cities you may find a farmer who is also a corn merchant or who has some other little sideline of that kind, perhaps on a commission basis, but still he finds it very convenient to keep his farm and he is described, even in his will, as a farmer. I listened to a great oration from the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies). There was a time when the hon. and learned Member spoke about those who put their hands into the public purse. He used to speak from the same platform as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). We know the kind of orations which they used to deliver, with regard to Conservative landowners about the open hand of the Treasury and the open door of the public house. That was the kind of speech which we used to get from the hon. and learned Member. To-day he is thanking God that he is no longer like those men; he is to-night receiving favours on behalf of his constituents and hoping for further favours to come.
  I notice, by the way, that Montgomeryshire is included in this list. There is one case only six months ago of a farmer who left £9,850. That is not so bad for a bankrupt farmer. I also notice that Rhondda, Monmouthshire and Merionethshire also figure in this list. Then we have this talk about new help for sheep-farming being essential, in order to keep Welsh agriculture on its feet. They seem to be doing pretty well out of it as it is, and before we pass the principle of this Bill, apart from what we say in our Amendment—and that is important—we
  1656
  ought to have a case made by the Government to show why these extra subsidies are needed. No economic case has yet been presented to the House for these subsidies. Let us take the general position in regard to agricultural subsidies. We have paid this year on wheat £9,000,000. We are paying this year in cattle subsidy £4,265,000; on milk, nearly £1,ooo,ooo; land fertilisation, £1,500,000; bacon, £425,000—and a wonderful result we are getting from it—sugar subsidy and Excise repayments, £4,500,000: small holdings, £800,000; afforestation, £500,000; Agricultural Credits Act, £32,000, and if we get to the maximum figure at present postulated in this Bill —I do not say that we shall—we shall be providing another £7,885,000. It may be less than that, but it certainly will not be less than £5,500,000. I am putting it at the minimum.
  There are people who would like us to forget what has been done for the farmers, or, rather, for the landlords, in the remission of rates on agricultural land. I have been looking up the figures. We have to make up to local authorities, out of the General Exchequer, nearly £20,000,000 a year for the derating of agricultural land alone. The present cash subsidy to agriculture in this country amounts to a few hundred pounds less than £50,000,000 a year. The Minister is raising his eyebrows. I do not know whether he is pained or is questioning that figure. How many workers arc- there in that industry? It is something over 500,000—about 570,000. If they were paid on an average £2 a week, and I doubt whether the average is as high as that, we are to-day paying out of State funds practically the whole of the wages of the workers in the agricultural industry.
  And still agriculturists come along saying" We want more, and more." The Minister himself has indicated that he cannot hope that this will be the: final Bill. He says that it is impossible to deal with all these matters in one Bill, and that he will be coming along with variations. The hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) has suggested that the 10d. per lb. postulated as the sheep subsidy is not sufficient. I see Members on my own benches representing agricultural constituencies who seem to have their caps in their hands in some form or other —
  Sir J. Lamb: If the hon. Member quotes me I hope that he will quote me correctly.
  Mr. Alexander: I said the hon. Member did not seem to be satisfied with the 10d.
  Sir J. Lamb: You said that I said it was not enough. I did not say it was not enough.
  Mr. Alexander: Does the hon. Member think it is too high?
  Sir J. Lamb: What I said in my speech was that it was said that it was not enough, but I said that I could not say that, because I thought that when the regulations with regard to the weight of the sheep came out we should know better about it.
  Mr. Alexander: I see. You are putting up the necessary cover to take the right line when the time comes.
  Sir J. Lamb rose—
  Mr. Alexander: I have already given away a lot of my time and I must get on. The Minister has complained about the terms of our Amendment, because of its reference to the failure of the Bill to do anything for the workers in the industry. I do not see why he should complain about that. I do not see any guarantee in the Bill that agricultural workers are to get an improvement in their wage rates or will be offered more inducements to remain on the land. Lots of people are pained because workers are leaving the land. I do not see why we should be so pained about it, if we look at it from the point of view of the other man. The worker has a right to the best modern amenities he can afford, and a right to sell his labour in the best markets; and we have long since got over the old problem of famine through being compelled to abide by manual methods in agriculture. We are continuously increasing machine production in agriculture and I do not see why we should be concerned, providing we maintain the output of agricultural produce in this country. Therefore, I feel strongly that the Minister has not dealt with that point. If we see the farmer at the Exchequer with his hands open for money, then we shall say that public money ought not to be ladled out in that way without public control. In fact the very success of the agricultural
  1658
  importunity to the Government for continuous cash aid to the industry has given to the Socialist his main case for the socialisation of the industry. It has proved to the Socialist that it is impossible, on any capitalist principle, to carry on the industry.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: That is not your policy?
  Mr. Alexander: It is your policy. The policy of subsidy which now reaches £50,000,000 a year and still shows no finality, seems to give no permanent prospect of proper wages to the worker or of prosperity to the farmers concerned. We say that if you are using public money to this extent you ought to take over the control of the industry as soon as you can.
  Mr. Stewart: Is that your policy?
  Mr. Alexander: We have always associated with the granting of subsidy from public funds a proper share in the national control of the industry being assisted, and if hon. Members will look at the Debates relating to the various subsidies they will find that we have made such statements. [Interruption.] It is very unfortunate that hon. Members should resent these things being said. I hope that the Minister will consider this question when he replies. If we were to have a proper share in the control of the agricultural industry which we are subsidising we should find no difficulty in arranging a proper basis for the payment of the workers engaged in it. We have at the present moment no guarantee that this continued raising of subsidies will give to the workers a proper remuneration, and that is why we protest, as we have done in the wording of our Amendment.
  In the very few minutes that I have left I would have liked to say very much more to prove my case. I should have liked to speak about the financial Clauses of the Bill in relation to penalties. My hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) pointed out in very short terms the history of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation. I want to know whether we can have from the Secretary of State to-night a firm answer to the question which my hon. Friend put. We fail to understand the trend of the further move for an annual subsidy up to

  1659
  £60,000. It says, "either by way of grant or loan," but it seems pretty certain that if we do not knock out the word" grant" from the Bill it will be a grant in the end. The position is that you have £10,500,000 of debentures providing credit for the farmers, and up till now there has been no provision for amortisation. From 1st July, 1939, there is an amortisation at the rate of one-half of 1 per cent. You have a whole block of £8,500,000 of debentures at 5 per cent, fetching, according to the latest rumour affecting the market, anything from 103 to 123. You have the other block of £2,000,000 of 4½ per cent., varying from 110 to 114½Are we to understand that the Clause in the Bill is to give another £60,000 a year especially to provide interest upon those debentures which are being trafficked at those high rates?
  At the same time we are told that the Minister is quite unable to say that the granting of this extra money will offer the least assistance to the farming industry itself, and that they will not thereby be able to lend at any lower rate than at present. I think I shall be speaking for all my hon. Friends here when I say that we should like to know a great deal more about how these debentures were raised, and why they cannot be converted to lower rates more in accordance with present money rates, and so avoid this continuous drain on the public purse. Five per cent, for debentures worth £120 in the market is not a proper debenture rate. I should also like to know whether they were issued through the Whitehall Trust, and whether the Whitehall Trust had anything out of this except such payment as they collected as trustees of the debenture holders. I want to know, too, why it was, if there was to be such a fine long-term investment at 5 per cent., that the Treasury did not take up the £1,250,000 of debentures at 5 per cent, that they were entitled to take up. They would have been receiving enough interest on the £1,250,000 to provide the £60,000 which they now want to give back to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation.
  These are very important matters. The Clause is a finance Clause, and we shall have approved it in principle when we give a Second Reading to the Bill. As it is only right that the Secretary of State
  1660
  should have time in which to reply, I will leave over many other things that I wanted to say. I hope he will endeavour to answer the detailed points that were put by my hon. Friend at the beginning of the Debate. Finally, I am convinced that, if this House were really prepared to deal with the question on a basis which would prevent this continuous tapping of the public purse for the ultimate benefit of the landlords, there would soon be a very different position in our British agriculture. I have in my hand an extract from the" Notts Evening Post" of 7th June, describing the summer rent audit of the farmers, market gardeners and tenants of the Donington Estate at Donington Hall, when Mr. J. G. Shields, apparently one of the bigwigs in that quarter, said that:
  " Famers were depositing money at banks, which was a good sign."
  Captain Charles Shields also stated that:
  " It was the first occasion he had heard any farmer say he was doing well."
  With the various subsidies, such as the fertilisation subsidies and the subsidies for oats, wheat and other commodities, the land is certainly being cultivated and improved, but all the time, with the exception of the actual owner-occupiers, you are gradually improving the capital value for the landowners themselves, and in the end the tenant farmer will have to pay the piper and will find that there is a permanent incubus upon the industry. I hope very much that there will come a day when the general industrial community, about which something has been said to-night, will see to it that they return a membership to this House that will deal with the agricultural industry, not on a basis of being hard and harsh to farmers and farm labourers, but on a real basis of co-operation between town workers and farm workers. The first thing we have to do is to see that the purchasing power of the industrial worker enables him to take advantage of agricultural production. There is a lot to be done in that direction. The second thing is to see that the 500,000 or 600,000 agricultural workers get a proper wage. But when that time comes, you will have to tackle those who sit still on the backs of the farmers and land workers, taking their toll of rent and profit, and using the land as a holiday place and hunting-ground.
  10.36 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Colville): I think my right hon. and gallant Friend who opened this Debate with such an interesting speech has good reason to be satisfied with the general course of the Debate. I have taken a rough analysis of the general trend of the speeches to-day, and it is rather interesting to note that, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman the Members for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) and the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), who led for the Opposition, and in that capacity have felt it their duty to look every gift horse in the mouth, there were only two speakers who roundly condemned the Bill. All the others favoured it, including two hon. Members opposite, who, mixed with some criticism, gave a wise approval to the general objects of the Bill—and these were hon. Members with practical experience of farming; I refer to the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) and the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin). They criticised points in the Bill, but could not give it that round condemnation which their Front Bench did. I think that in the matter of agriculture the Opposition has some difficulty in controlling the flow of speeches from its own prominent Members. Only the other day we had a speech from the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) who, in referring to agriculture, said:
  " Are we going to produce primary products in this country at high cost instead of purchasing them from other countries at low cost, thus enabling those countries to meet their obligations to this country?"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th June, 1939; col. 807, Vol. 348.]
  Formerly I was Secretary to the Department for Overseas Trade, and I was interested in keeping open as much trade as possible; but I think there should be a limit to the policy suggested by the hon. Member for Seaham. I wonder whether he would apply the same theory to coal, which depends on special statutory regulations for a measure of protection.
  A number of questions have been raised in this Debate. I do not pretend that I shall be able to answer them all, but I should like to deal with some of them. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough referred to the returns which the Scottish Department of Agriculture makes on the subject of the profitableness of farming. He paid my Department a
  1662
  rather left-handed compliment for our efforts to get that information. He said our example was not followed by the English Department. I understand, however, that my right hon. and gallant Friend, through the universities, does get a measure of similar information. I should be the last to put aside a compliment to me or my Department, but I am bound to point out that that information is by no means full. These returns are mainly useful in enabling us to keep an eye on trends. The right hon. Gentleman himself, who chose a relatively good year, compared to the year which followed, mentioned that out of upwards of 200 farms covered by the returns there had been a number on which a loss had been made. I would point out also that those 200 farms represent a very small proportion of the 75,000 agricultural holdings in Scotland. At the same time the Department made some effort to get information, and we propose to continue to do so. Perhaps we shall be aided in our efforts to find out how profitable farming is when the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood), who, I am sorry to say, is not in his place to-night, takes over a farm in the Island of Jura. He will no doubt come back and tell us how profitable it has been.
  Mr. George Griffiths: The Noble Lady will not give it to him if there is any profit to be made out of it.
  Mr. Colville: I am sure that if the hon. Member for Dumbarton takes to farming his researches will be welcomed by the Scottish agricultural Department. These returns are made by inquiry from the farms, and they are got from the farmers who keep books. It is rather the better type of farm that keeps satisfactory books, and while one wants to improve bookkeeping on farms, I think that the returns on an entirely voluntary basis do check up the rather better farms and give us a valuable piece of information.
  The hon. Member for Don Valley spoke about the cost of the production of food. Oats is a good example of the difficulty in calculating the cost of production. It is a crop which finds a place on all sorts of farms of a greatly varying character. I do not hide the fact that the cost of production can be estimated in a number of ways. The general opinion, however, is that the cost would be between £6 and £7 an acre. If every one of the 16 cwts.,

  1663
  the average yield, fetched the standard price of 8s. the return would be £6 8s. Most farms use a considerable proportion of the crop as raw material for feeding livestock. In Scotland, however, it is the only cash crop in certain parts, and a valuable cash crop in other parts of the country.
  The hon. Member for Carmarthen asked some questions, and I will try to answer him, though I may not be able to deal with them all. In dealing with sheep he asked, Is it clear that the prices of offals are not included? The answer is that the dressed carcase weight disregards the principal offals, but has regard to certain others. My right hon. Friend read out a list of offals that could be so regarded. The hon. Gentleman asked whether standard prices had been worked out. The monthly standard prices for sheep will be determined by the Livestock Commission in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 5, Sub-section (2) of the Second Schedule to the Bill. He asked whether weights had been fixed, and he went on to make some very practical suggestions in that regard. The answer on that point is that the Livestock Commission will also have to consider the standard weights to be fixed by the Orders of the Ministers on the advice of the Commission. That is laid down in the Second Schedule. The hon. Gentleman proceeded to ask that there should be increased representation of sheep producers on the Livestock Commission. The Commission itself is an independent body, but the representative body which advises is the Livestock Advisory Committee. Steps have already been taken to add representatives of the sheep producers to that committee. He complained about the ravages of rabbits. There is a private Member's Bill for England and Wales which the Government have agreed to help, and in the case of Scotland, the Government have introduced a Bill, which includes not only rabbits, but deer—in the Island of Jura and elsewhere.
  We have very much in mind the question raised by the hon. Member for Carmarthen and the hon. Member for Don Valley in regard to the market reports. There are officers of the Ministry of Agriculture and the Department of Agriculture in Scotland, and they work together in order to calculate the average
  1664
  price in the markets on which they have to report. Every effort is made to ensure that the prices are determined on a uniform basis, and experience of actual cases indicates that prices agree very closely with the actual prices realised for cattle eligible for the subsidy. The hon. Member for Don Valley said that he thought our efforts to attach efficiency to the payments made in the Bill were in the nature of eyewash. He will not expect me to agree with him on that. It will be necessary to carry out inspection as effectively as possible, and surprise visits will be made to farms for this purpose. Our inspectors are generally moving about the country and get to know the places where inspection may be desirable and valuable. Some small increase in the staff may be necessary. It will not be a great increase, but we shall not hesitate to increase the staff of inspectors if it is necessary in order that these inspections, these surprise inspections, are to be made.
  Mr. T. Williams: Are they going to be the same people who were constantly looking for thistles and never found any?
  Mr. Colville: I am sorry to say that there are certain farms in Scotland where there would be no difficulty in finding thistles, but I am sure the officers will do their work as civil servants fairly and accurately. The hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) also gave support to the Bill, as indeed did Members in all parts of the House. He asked one question in relation to the ceiling for sheep. The figure of 27,000,000 is related, of course, to the United Kingdom sheep population in the June quarter; the number of fat sheep which may be marketed in any year may be about 10,000,000 or up to 13,000,000, including ewes.
  Mr. J. Morgan: That figure will be determined by the 4th June?
  Mr. Colville: Yes, by the return on the 4th June.
  The House will agree that we have had two very interesting maiden speeches today from the hon. Member for West Perth and Kinross (Mr. Snadden) and the other from the hon. Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine (Mr. ThorntonKemsley). I should like to congratulate both hon. Members on their speeches. They' both raised several interesting

  1665
  points. The hon. Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine referred to the importance of the rotation of crops. I would specially stress that in the case of Scotland, and also the importance of it in relation to what we are doing for oats. It is necessary in Scotland to grow oats, because in certain parts of the country it is the only crop which can be grown for cash and keep the land in a healthy condition.
  The hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) disliked the ceiling for sheep. I would remind him that the figure of 27,000,000 has been exceeded only four times in the past 40 years—in 1907, 1908, 1909 and 1932, so it is not an unreasonable figure to fix. But of course we shall watch it.
  I am satisfied from the districts I have visited in the North East of Scotland that in these oat-growing districts not only is farming in a poor state, it is in a desperate state.
  Mr. Alexander: We have to be satisfied to vote large sums of public money on the word of a Minister who thinks things are bad but has no evidence.
  Mr. Colville: The right hon. Gentleman's complacency in regard to farming will not stand him in good stead in the country. But I would like to answer a specific point he raised about credits. There are two Corporations, one to deal with agricultural credits in England and one in Scotland. In regard to the English Corporation the position is this: In 1929 an issue of £5,000,000 5 per cent, debentures at par was made. In 1930 £3,500,000 debentures were issued, redeemable in 1959. In 1932 £2,000,000 4½ per cent, debentures, redeemable in 1961, were issued at 95. There is no provision for repayment. The difficulties which brought about the necessity for assisting the Corporation were mainly these: The immediate outcome of the conversion of War Loan in 1932 resulted in a heavy fall in interest rates generally. In consequence the Corporation found itself unable to make loans from the funds which it had in hand at rates corresponding to the prevailing interest rates without incurring a loss. It was receiving the repayment of loans already made by regular instalments and by premature repayment of outstanding balances. The provision which is being made for the assistance of this company is to enable it to carry on with the function for which
  1666
  it was devised, bearing in mind that it has a firm contract in regard to these debentures. But there is a provision here of which I should like to tell the right hon. Gentleman. It is proposed to make it a condition that so long as the corporation is in receipt of these payments, it shall not pay dividends on the share capital except with the consent of the Minister and the Treasury. It is intended to make that stipulation. Only with the consent of the Minister and the Treasury will a dividend be paid as long as these payments are going on.
  With regard to the Scottish Corporation, my hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart) asked me, in a Parliamentary Question, why there was no provision to make a similar payment to the Scottish Corporation. The circumstances are not parallel. The Scottish Corporation started its operations at a later date, in 1934, after the conversion operation had taken place, and so was fortunate enough to avoid the period of high borrowing rates which have led to the present difficulties in the case of the English Corporation. I have been in touch with the Scottish Corporation, and they are satisfied that they can carry on for the present without a special Exchequer subvention. The assistance proposed in connection with the English Corporation is not for the purpose of lowering interest rates, but to enable the corporation to carry on. The specific point which my hon. Friend put to me was, why should not the Scottish Corporation also lend its money at lower rates, equal to the English rates? There is at present a fractional difference of one-quarter, the rates being 4£per cent, and 4#x00BD percent I am in consultation with the Scottish Corporation, but I am not in a position to add anything further to-night; nor do we propose at present to put anything in this Bill on the subject. If at any time it was thought wise or necessary to make any change, my hon. Friend will remember that we have a separate Agricultural Credits (Scotland) Act, which could be amended; but I am not giving any undertaking that anything of that sort will be done.
  Mr. Henderson Stewarts: Is my right hon. Friend really suggesting that it is proposed that Scottish borrowers should continue to pay a higher rate of interest on their loans and therefore get no assistance from the State, whereas the English

  1667
  Corporation charge their borrowers one-quarter per cent. less, having obtained a grant of £60,000 a year from the Exchequer?
  Mr. Colville: My hon. Friend will recognise that the English Corporation lent large sums of money at a higher rate of interest than the Scottish Corporation. The management of the Scottish Corporation say that there is no need for financial assistance, as they were able to borrow money at lower rates on account of the lower interest.
  I should like, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to stress the importance of this Bill to Scotland. In Scotland, oats is a staple crop, and in 1938 the acreage under oats was 779,000—more than four times the acreage of wheat and barley combined, and almost exactly one-third of the total oats area of the United Kingdom. In Scotland, oats represents a staple crop. It is necessary not only to furnish cash, but also for the welfare of the land. Therefore, I have very great pleasure in being able to recommend this Bill to the House. I am certain that it will not only give our agriculture more confidence, but will provide a real improvement in agricultural conditions.
  I should have liked to deal with some of the points raised by hon. Members about the conditions of agricultural workers. I will only, however, in conclusion, refer to one point. The recent legislation in Scotland, passed by this Government and not by previous Governments, has made the machinery of the
  Agricultural Wages Act available in that country. It was passed at a time when the farmers were depressed and doubtful about the future. They were passing through difficult times, and without the necessary assistance to give confidence to farming in Scotland, I do not think that even with that machinery we could have hoped for better times for the farm workers. But with that machinery and this assistance, we can hope for better times for them. Also the Government have passed recently two Acts relating to rural housing in Scotland, while there are Acts on the Statute Book already for England. [Interruption.] I could give the figures of the work which is going on if I had more time, but there will be opportunities' later to stress that point.
  My right hon. Friend and I are bringing this Bill before the House believing that we are making it possible for the farmers to develop their business with energy and with confidence, and, in doing so, to help the welfare of the country. I am quite sure that, irrespective of party in this House, our dearest wish at the present time is for peace, but at the same time we are determined to stand for certain things which we regard as essential. In making that stand, it is not only armaments and money that are required, but also a prosperous agriculture in this country, and this Bill is a great contribution towards that end.
  Question put," That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 229; Noes, 119.

  Division No. 175.]

  AYES.

  [11.3 p.m.

  Acland, R. T. D.

  Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

  Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Crookshank, Capt, Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

  Cross, R. H.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Bull, B. B.

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Albery, Sir Irving

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Anderson, Sir A. Garrett C. of Ldn.)

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Butcher, H. W.

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  De Chair, S. S.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Cayzer, Sir C.W. (City of Chester)

  De la Bère, R.

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Denman, Hon. R, D.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Channon, H.

  Denville, Alfred

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Clarks, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Dower, Lieut.-Col. A. V. G.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Drewe, C.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Colfox, Major Sir W. P.

  Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

  Boulton, W. W.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Dugdale, Captain T. L.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Colville, Rt. Hon. John

  Duncan, J. A. L.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness)

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Brass, Sir W.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Edmondson, Major Sir J

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

  Cox, H. B. Trevor

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Elliston, Capt. G. S.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Sandeman, Sir N. S.

  Emery, J. F.

  Lyons, A. M.

  Schuster, Sir G. E.

  Errington, E.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Selley, H. R.

  Everard, Sir William Lindsay

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Shepperson, Sir E. W.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Fleming, E. L.

  McKie, J. H.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Foot, D. M.

  Maitland, Sir Adam

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Furness, S. N.

  Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

  Snadden, W. McN.

  George, Major C. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Mander, G. le M.

  Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rl. Hon. Sir J.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Spens. W. P.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Markham, S. F.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Goldie, N. B.

  Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

  Storey, S.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Medlicott, F.

  Stourton, Major Hon, J. J.

  Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Granville, E. L.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

  Stuart, Rl. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Tale, Mavis C.

  Grimston, R. V.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Hambro, A. V.

  Owen, Major G.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Peake, O.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

  Peat, C. U.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Peters, Dr. S. J.

  Touche, G. C.

  Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

  Petherick, M.

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Hoare, Rt. Hon. sir S.

  Pilkington, R.

  Turton, R. H.

  Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Wakelield, W. W.

  Hopkin, D.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Ramsbotham, Rt. Hon. H.

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Wayland, Sir W. A.

  Hutchinson, G. C.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Wells, Sir Sydney

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  White, H. Graham

  Jennings, R.

  Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

  Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

  Joel, D. J. B.

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Remer, J. R.

  Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Keeling, E. H.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham (Scottish Univ.)

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Rosbotham, Sir T.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Wise, A. R.

  Leech, Sir J. W.

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Rothschild, J. A. de

  Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

  Rowlands, G.

  York, C.

  Levy, T.

  Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Liddall, W. S.

  Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E, A.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Lipson, D. L.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Lieut-Colonel Kerr and Mr, Munro.

  Little, J.

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Llewellin, Colonel J. J.

  Salt, E. W.

  NOES.

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Jagger, J.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  John, W.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Day, H.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

  Dobbie, W.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

  Lathan, G.

  Banfield, J. W.

  Ede, J. C.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

  Leach, W.

  Batey, J.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Lee, F.

  Beaumont, H. (Batley)

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Leonard, W.

  Bellenger, F. J.

  Frankel, D.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

  Gallacher, W.

  Lunn, W.

  Broad, F. A.

  Gardner, B. W.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Bromfield, W.

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Buchanan, G.

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Burke, W. A.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  McGovern, J.

  Cape, T.

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  MacLaren, A.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Maclean, N.

  Chater, D.

  Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

  Marshall, F.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Maxton, J.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Hayday, A.

  Messer, F.

  Collindridge, F.

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Milner, Major J.

  Cove, W. G.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Montague, F.

  Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doneaster)

  Daggar, G.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

  Dalton, H.

  Isaacs, G. A.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  1670

  1671

  Muff, G.

  Sexton, T. M.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Shinwell, E.

  Viant, S. P.

  Noal-Baker, P. J.

  Silkin, L.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Paling, W.

  Sloan, A.

  Westwood, J.

  Parker, J.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

  Pearson, A.

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  William., T. (Don Valley)

  Poole, C. C.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Wilson, C. H. (Atterclifle)

  Price, M. P.

  Stephen, C.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Stokes, R. R.

  Ridley, G.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Riley, B.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Mr. Matters and Mr. Groves.

  Ritson, J.

  Thurtle, E.

  Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT [Money].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  " That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision, amongst other matters, for securing farmers against low prices for oats, barley and fat sheep, and for securing a market for barley, for promoting the ploughing up of grassland and rendering it fit for arable crops, for the establishment of a reserve of agricultural machinery, and for increasing the resources of any company formed for such purposes as are mentioned in the Agricultural Credits Act, 1928, it is expedient—
  A. To authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of:
  1. A subsidy in respect of land which is under oats, or under a mixed crop comprising oats or barley, in the year nineteen hundred and thirty-nine or in any subsequent year, subject to the following conditions—

  (a) there shall be a higher rate and a lower rate of subsidy, and the higher rate shall not apply to land in a farm which during the first eight months of the year comprised any land under wheat unless the farm is excluded from the benefit of deficiency payments under the Wheat Act, 1932;

  (b) the higher rate for any year shall be a rate per acre equal to fourteen times the difference between the average price per hundredweight for that year for homegrown oats and eight shillings (or such other amount as may be substituted for that amount by an order duly approved) or the rate of two pounds six shillings and eightpence per acre, whichever is the less, and the lower rate for any year shall be a rate ascertained in like manner, but with the substitution of six times for fourteen times the said difference and of one pound for two pounds six shillings and eightpence; and

  (c) the total amount which may be paid by way of subsidy for any year shall not exceed the amount which might have
  1672
  been so paid if the acreage of land qualifying for subsidy for that year had not exceeded two million five hundred thousand acres.

  2.Any increase in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under Part II of the Agriculture Act. 1937, attributable to any provisions of the said Act of the present Session fixing at thirty- one shillings and sixpence per acre the rate of a subsidy for the year nineteen hundred and thirty-eight the payment of which is authorised by the said Part II, or extending the time for making elections or applications under the said Part II, or authorising the payment under the said Part II of a subsidy for that year at the rate of thirteen shillings and sixpence per acre in respect of land excluded from subsidy under the said Part II by Section seven of the Agriculture Act, 1937.
  3.In respect of the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, or of any subsequent year, being a year in the case of which provision is made under the said Act of the present Session for the payment of contributions into a fund established for the purpose of the making of subsidy payments in respect of land under barley, payments into the said fund for each hundredweight of any excess of nine-tenths of the amount of home-grown barley harvested m that year over the amount of home-grown barley by reference to which the amount of the contributions to be paid into the said fund is under the said Act to be determined, subject to the following conditions—

  (a) the rate of any such payment shall not exceed the difference between the average price per hundredweight for that year for home-grown barley used, or to be used, for feeding livestock and eight shillings per hundredweight (or such other amount as may be substituted for that amount by an order duly approved); and

  (b) the total amount of such payments for any year shall not exceed the amount which might have been the amount thereof if nine-tenths of the amount of home-grown barley harvested in that year had not exceeded eighteen million hundredweights:

  Provided that, in the case of the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the said conditions shall not apply, but the amount of the said payments shall be such as may be determined under the said Act with the approval of the Treasury.
  4. A subsidy, in respect of land which is under barley in the month of June imme diately preceding the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and forty or any subsequent year, being a year in the case of which provision is made under the said Act of the present Session for minimum prices for home-grown barley, and in the case of which the average price per hundredweight for home-grown barley used or to be used for feeding livestock is less than eight shillings per hundredweight (or such other amount as may be substituted for that amount by an order duly approved), subject to the following conditions,—

  (a)the rate of subsidy for any year shall not exceed two pounds thirteen shillings and fourpence per acre;

  (b)the total amount which may be paid by way of subsidy for any year shall not exceed the amount which might have been so paid if nine-tenths of the amount of home-grown barley harvested in that year had not exceeded eighteen million hundredweights;

  (c)the area of any land in respect of which subsidy may be paid shall be subject to reduction as may be provided by or under the said Act where it includes lands on which there was growing in the said month barley in respect of which the provision aforesaid as to minimum prices has effect by virtue of the said Act.

  5.Any expenses incurred by any Barley Advisory Committee constituted under the said Act of the present Session.
  6.A subsidy in respect of fat sheep sold or slaughtered in the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and thirty-nine or in any subsequent year, subject to the following conditions,—

  (a) the amount of subsidy in respect of any sheep shall be an amount, for each pound of the standard weight (as determined under the said Act of the present Session with the approval of the Treasury) of sheep of the description to which that sheep belongs, equal to the amount (if any) by which the average price of sheep per pound for the month in which the sheep is examined under provisions in that behalf of the said Act is less than the standard price for that month;

  (b)the standard prices for the several months in any year shall be determined, as may be provided by the said Act, in such manner as to render the average thereof equal to the standard price for that year; and

  (c)the standard price for any year shall be tenpence per pound, but shall be related to a United Kingdom sheep population of twenty-seven millions, and shall be subject to reduction by one- eighth of a penny for each complete quarter of a million by which such population exceeds twenty-seven millions and by a further one-eighth of a penny for each complete quarter of a. million by which it exceeds twenty-eight millions, and the said figure of twenty-seven
  1674
  millions shall be subject to reduction, to such extent as may be provided by the said Act, for the purpose of ascertaining the standard price for years following on biennial periods in which the standard price has been in excess of the average price:

  Provided that the terms of this condition shall be subject to variation by an Order duly approved.
  7.Such of the expenses of the examination of sheep for the purposes of the said Act of the present Session as may be thereby directed to be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament, any expenses incurred by the Livestock Commission in connection with the execution of the said Act, and any increase attributable to the execution of the said Act in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament by virtue of Sub-section (3) of Section one of the Livestock Industry Act, 1937.
  8.Grants in respect of the ploughing-up, in the year nineteen hundred and thirty- nine, of land then under grass and the bringing of the land into a state of cleanliness and fertility, subject to the condition that the rate of such a grant shall not exceed one pound for a half acre.
  9.Any expenses incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries in connection with the acquisition and storage of stocks of agricultural tractors and other agricultural machinery or in doing anything appearing to him necessary for the storage, preservation, and transport of such stocks.
  10.Payments, in the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, and in each or any of the nine teen next succeeding years, to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, being payments by way of grant or by way of loan not exceeding in any year sixty thousand pounds.
  11.Any expenses incurred for the purposes of the said Act of the present Session by a Secretary of State, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, or the Department of Agriculture for Scotland.
  B. To authorise the payment into the Exchequer of—

  1.Any sums retained out of the proceeds of any sale of sheep forfeited under any pro vision in that behalf made by or under the said Act.

  2.Any sums representing the proceeds of any disposal of stocks of agricultural tractors or other agricultural machinery acquired under the said Act.

  In this Resolution the expression 'order duly approved' means an order made with the approval of the Treasury and approved by a resolution passed by each House of Parliament, and references to an average price, to an acreage of land qualifying for subsidy, to an amount of barley harvested, and to the United Kingdom sheep population, shall be construed as references to that price, acreage or amount, or to that population, as the case may be, as ascertained in accordance with any provisions in that behalf of the said Act of the present Session."—(King's Recommendation signified.) [Sir R. Dorman-Smitk]
  11.13 p.m.
  Mr. Batey: I have two Amendments down to the Resolution. I want to know whether you, Sir Dennis, are going to call my first Amendment.
  The Chairman: I am afraid I cannot call it as it is out of order.
  Mr. Batey: The object of the Money Resolution is to pay these millions of public money to the farmers. Surely I am entitled to move to leave out the word" farmers" and put in" persons engaged in agriculture," so that the agricultural workers may get a share of the money.
  The Chairman: The effect of the Amendment, if carried, would be so substantially to alter the destination of the money that it is out of order.
  Mr. Batey: I want to thank you. Sir Dennis, for that statement. We want substantially to alter the Resolution.
  The Chairman: The hon. Member must not make a speech on the subject.
  Mr. Dingle Foot: Before we leave the Resolution —
  Mr. Garro Jones: On a point of Order. If I correctly understood you, Sir Dennis, you ruled that my hon. Friend's Amendment so substantially altered the destination of the money that it would be out of order. May I ask if you will consider the whole argument of the Minister which he held out to the House that all persons engaged in agriculture, including the labourers, would derive indirectly substantial benefit from these proposals.
  The Chairman: Perhaps for the purpose of making the point of Order clearer, it would have been better if, instead of using the word" destination" I had said" the persons to whom the money will go"
  11.16 p.m.
  Mr. Foot: I think we ought to have some explanation from the Minister of why it is considered necessary to present such a Resolution as this. The House of Commons can rarely have seen a Financial Resolution drawn in such detail that it covers two-and-a-half pages of the Order Paper. The Minister may recollect the recommendations of the Select Committee on Money Resolutions. They said
  1676
  clearly that these Resolutions should not be drawn with unnecessary particularity. It is clear that their recommendations have been ignored by whoever was responsible for this Resolution. I do not propose to go through all the details, but I will give one example to illustrate my point. Paragraph A 10 states:
  " Payments, in the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, and in each or any of the nineteen next succeeding years, to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, being payments by way of grant or by way of loan not exceeding in any year sixty thousand pounds."
  There is a limitation to £60,000 a year. Why is it necessary to put in other details about the particular year? Why should it not be open to hon. Members to move Amendments to the Bill, to alter the particular years concerned. As it is, hon. Members will be debarred from moving all kinds of material Amendments. After the report of the Select Committee we were given an assurance by the Prime Minister, that a circular would be sent to the draftsmen of the various Departments drawing their attention to the recommendations of the committee and telling them that they must not draw Money Resolutions in unnecessary detail, yet we have one Resolution after another drawn in increasing detail, We have a Resolution to-night such as rite House of Commons can seldom have seen before, and some explanation of it is required.
  11.18 p.m.
  Mr. Tinker: It is very difficult to find out from the Money Resolution what is the exact amount involved, but I understand that in the aggregate it is £6,000,000. The House of Commons ought to make some recognition of the fact that this amount of money is being given out in this way. It may be argued that eventually the money will go to the farm labourer, but we are not satisfied about that. The figures given by the right hon, Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) showed that many farmers leave huge sums behind them, and it appears to us that most of the money which is given by Parliament in this way goes into the pockets of the farmers and very little to the farm labourer. A greater proportion, we hold, ought to go to the agricultural worker, and we have attempted, by means of the Amendments which we have put on the Paper, to find some way of achieving that purpose. Un-

  1677
  fortunately, my hon. Friends and myself are not skilled enough in Parliamentary procedure to know how to word the Amendment: but the real objective was that more of the money granted by Parliament should go to the agricultural workers. Hence, we take objection to the Money Resolution, and I hope that most of our Members will help us to try to defeat it.
  11.21 p.m.
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I can assure the Committee that in framing the Money Resolution the pledge which was given by the Prime Minister was borne in mind, and the Resolution does leave very large scope for discussion. The Committee may recollect that the Financial Resolution on the Agriculture Act was much more tightly drawn. Of course, I admit that it is a very long Resolution, but it is a very long Bill. The fact that there are two potential schemes means that there are a large number of matters with which we had to try to deal on the Financial Resolution. As far as the loan is concerned I am told that we cannot reconvert the loan, but must leave it till the debentures run out. I hope the Committee will not consider that this. Resolution is too narrowly drawn, because I am informed that it has been drawn as widely as it can be. For the reasons I have given, that it is a long Bill and a complex Bill, the Government feel that such a Resolution is necessary if they are to discharge their responsibilities in regard to public expenditure which were set forth in the Prime Minister's speech.
  Mr. Foot: This seems to be an odd argument—that because a Bill was long
  and complex, therefore the Money Resolution must necessarily be long and complex.
  Sir R. Dorman-Smith: It does not necessarily follow. Of course it is bound to be long if the Bill is long, but I think the hon. Member will agree that most of the paragraphs in it are quite short and simple.
  11.23 p.m.
  Mr. T. Williams: I agree with the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) that this is a very long Financial Resolution, and also that it is a very long Bill. The Bill has been debated for seven hours, and as the balance of arguments from the Liberal benches has been in favour of the Bill it is difficult to understand why the hon. Member should take objection to the Financial Resolution. But I have sat in the House from 3.45 almost without a break for a meal, and I have observed which Members, and on which benches they sat, have been in the House, and I have noted the absence of the hon. Member for Dundee for nine-tenths of the day. I am still convinced, in spite of what the Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland have said that a case has not been made out for this Bill or for the Financial Resolution. We have tried to make our case, and since hon. Members on these benches, with the exception of one, have voted against the Bill, and since there is the same principle in the Financial Resolution as there is in the Bill, I hope my hon. Friends will now be disposed to go into the Lobby upon it.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 109.

  Division No. 176.]

  AYES.

  [11.26 p.m.

  Acland, R. T. D.

  Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

  Courthope, Cel. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Cox, H. B. Trevor

  Albery, Sir Irving

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. G. (Newbury)

  Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Bull, B. B.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Cross, R. H.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Butcher, H. W.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Cayzer, Sir C. W. (.City of Chester)

  De Chair, S. S.

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  De la Bère, R.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Channon, H.

  Denville, Alfred

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Drewe, C.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Colfox, Major Sir W. P.

  Dugdale, Captain T. L.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Dunoan, J. A. L.

  Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness)

  Colville, Rt. Hon. John

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Brass, Sir W.

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Llewellin, Colonel J. J.

  Sandeman, Sir N. S.

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Schuster, Sir G. E.

  Elliston, Capt. G.S

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Seety, Sir H. M.

  Emery, J. F.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Selley H. R.

  Errington, E.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (lsle of Wight

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Everard, Sir William Lindsay

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Fildes, Sir H.

  McKie, J. H.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Fleming, E. L.

  Minder, G. le M.

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Furness, S. N.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Spens, W. P.

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Markham, S. F.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

  Storey, S.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Medlicott, F.

  Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichten- (N'thw'k)

  Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R.

  Munro, P.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Granville, E. L.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Taylor, C S. (Eastbourne

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Owen, Major G.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Peaks, O.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

  Peat, C. U.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Hambro, A. V.

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H

  Petherick, M.

  Touche, G. C.

  Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

  Pilkington, R.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Turton, R. H.

  Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Wakefield, W. W.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. HI.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.

  Ramsbotham, Rt. Hon. H.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Ruth bone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Wayland, Sir W. A.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Wells, Sir Sydney

  Hutchinson, G. C.

  Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

  White, H. Graham

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

  Jennings, R.

  Remer, J. R.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Joel, D. J. B.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham (Scottish Univ.)

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Rothschild, J. A. de

  Wise, A. R.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

  Rowlands, G.

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Leeoh, Sir J. W.

  Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

  Wright, Wing-commander J. A. C.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

  Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

  York, C.

  Levy, T.

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Liddall. W. S.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Lipson, D. L.

  Salmon, Sir 1.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Little, J.

  Salt, E. W.

  Lieut.-Colonel Kerr and Mr. Grimston.

  NOES.

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Foot, D. M.

  Maclean, N.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

  Frankel, D.

  Marshall, F.

  Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

  Gallacher, W.

  Mathers, G.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

  Gardner, B. W.

  Maxton, J.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Milner, Major J.

  Banfield, J. W.

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Montague, F.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)

  Batey, J.

  Grenfell, O. R.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

  Beaumont, H. (Batley)

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Bellenger F. J.

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Muff, G.

  Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

  Groves, T. E.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Broad, F. A.

  Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

  Noel-Baker, P. J.

  Bromfield, W.

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Buchanan, G.

  Hayday, A.

  Paling. W.

  Burke, W. A.

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Parker, J.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Pearson, A.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Isaacs, G. A.

  Poole, C. C.

  Collindridge, F. Cove, W. G.

  Jagger, J. Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Pritt, D. N. Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Ridley, G.

  Daggar, G.

  Lathan, G.

  Riley, B.

  Dalton, H.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Ritson. J.

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Leach, W.

  Shinwell, E.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Lee, F.

  Silkin, L.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Leonard, W.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Day, H.

  Lunn, W.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Debbie, W.

  Macdonald, G. Once)

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Dunn, E.(Rother Valley)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Ede, J. C.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  McGovern, J.

  Stephen, C.

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  MacLaren, A.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  1680

  1681

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Watkins, F.C

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Taylor, R. J(Morpeth)

  Westwood, J

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Tinker, J. J-

  Whiteley, W. (Blayden)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Viant, S.P.

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Walkden, A.G

  Williams, T (Don Valley)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Mr. John and Mr. Adamson

  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next

  POULTRY INDUSTRY BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock,Mr. DEPUTY- SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-four Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.

  OLD AGE AND WIDOWS' PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE AND WIDOWS' PENSIONS.
TRANSPORT.
  ROAD ACCIDENTS (STATISTICS).
  ROAD ACCIDENTS (STATISTICS).
  PEDESTRIAN STREET CROSSINGS.
  PEDESTRIAN STREET CROSSINGS.
  CZECHO-SLOVAKIA (ASSETS).
  CZECHO-SLOVAKIA (ASSETS).
  NATIONAL SPINSTERS PENSIONS ASSOCIATION.
  NATIONAL SPINSTERS PENSIONS ASSOCIATION.
  ALUMINIUM WORKS, NEATH.
  ALUMINIUM WORKS, NEATH.
  BEER, WINE AND SPIRITS (STATISTICS).
  BEER, WINE AND SPIRITS (STATISTICS).
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES' HOUSING LOANS.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES' HOUSING LOANS.
AGRICULTURE.
  AGRICULTURAL CREDITS ACT.
  AGRICULTURAL CREDITS ACT.
  GRASSLAND (PLOUGHING-UP SUBSIDY).
  GRASSLAND (PLOUGHING-UP SUBSIDY).
  SHEEP PELTS (PRICE).
  SHEEP PELTS (PRICE).
  PROCESSED MILK.
  PROCESSED MILK.
  INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENT, TIENTSIN (TRADE).
  INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENT, TIENTSIN (TRADE).
  WIRELESS BROADCAST RELAYS.
  WIRELESS BROADCAST RELAYS.
  SALE OF DRUGS.
  SALE OF DRUGS.
  ATMOSPHERE POLLUTION, SHIPLEY.
  ATMOSPHERE POLLUTION, SHIPLEY.
  LAND DEVELOPMENT (NEWPORT PAGNELL).
  LAND DEVELOPMENT (NEWPORT PAGNELL).
  HOUSE RENTS, LONDON.
  HOUSE RENTS, LONDON.
  MENTAL HOSPITALS (CHILDREN).
  MENTAL HOSPITALS (CHILDREN).
  TUBERCULOSIS TREATMENT (STATISTICS).
  TUBERCULOSIS TREATMENT (STATISTICS).
  WATER SUPPLY, HUCKNALL.
  WATER SUPPLY, HUCKNALL.
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (LEYTON).
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (LEYTON).
  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING.
  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING.
  SLUM CLEARANCE (ALTERNATIVE ACCOMMODATION).
  SLUM CLEARANCE (ALTERNATIVE ACCOMMODATION).
CIVIL DEFENCE.
  NURSING RESERVE.
  NURSING RESERVE.
  EVACUATION (BILLETING, DURHAM).
  EVACUATION (BILLETING, DURHAM).
  GAS-MASKS (INFANTS).
  GAS-MASKS (INFANTS).
  A.R.P. BADGES.
  A.R.P. BADGES.
  VESICANTS IN AIR RAIDS.
  VESICANTS IN AIR RAIDS.
  AIR-RAID SHELTERS.
  AIR-RAID SHELTERS.
  AUXILIARY FIRE SERVICES.
  AUXILIARY FIRE SERVICES.
  SCHEDULE OF RESERVED OCCUPATIONS.
  SCHEDULE OF RESERVED OCCUPATIONS.
  WATER SUPPLY, BIRMINGHAM.
  WATER SUPPLY, BIRMINGHAM.
ROYAL NAVY.
  THE LOSS OF HIS MAJESTY'S SUBMARINE"THETIS."
  THE LOSS OF HIS MAJESTY'S SUBMARINE"THETIS."
  ARMAMENTS DEPOT, CROMBIE (HOLIDAYS WITH PAY).
  ARMAMENTS DEPOT, CROMBIE (HOLIDAYS WITH PAY).
  RATINGS AND MARINES (WIDOWS' PENSIONS).
  RATINGS AND MARINES (WIDOWS' PENSIONS).
  PALESTINE.
  PALESTINE.
  KENYA.
  KENYA.
  SIERRA LEONE.
  SIERRA LEONE.
  REFUGEES.
  REFUGEES.
  RENT ARREARS (DISTRESS WARRANTS).
  RENT ARREARS (DISTRESS WARRANTS).
  ANTHRAX.
  ANTHRAX.
  DENTISTS ACT (PROSECUTION, ROMFORD).
  DENTISTS ACT (PROSECUTION, ROMFORD).
  INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENT, SOUTH-EAST LONDON.
  INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENT, SOUTH-EAST LONDON.
  ALIENS.
  ALIENS.
  PEACE PLEDGE UNION.
  PEACE PLEDGE UNION.
  PRINTING AND BOOKBINDING TRADE (YOUNG PERSONS, OVERTIME).
  PRINTING AND BOOKBINDING TRADE (YOUNG PERSONS, OVERTIME).
EDUCATION.
  RHEUMATISM IN CHILDREN.
  RHEUMATISM IN CHILDREN.
  MILK-IN-SCHOOLS SCHEME.
  MILK-IN-SCHOOLS SCHEME.
  CONVEYANCE OF CHILDREN TO SCHOOL (SOMERSET).
  CONVEYANCE OF CHILDREN TO SCHOOL (SOMERSET).
  FROME.
  FROME.
  BI-LINGUAL TEACHING, WALES.
  BI-LINGUAL TEACHING, WALES.
  DEFECTIVE SCHOOL PREMISES, WALES.
  DEFECTIVE SCHOOL PREMISES, WALES.
  RAMSGATE.
  RAMSGATE.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  ROYAL ORDNANCE FACTORY, EUXTON.
  ROYAL ORDNANCE FACTORY, EUXTON.
  Worker's Dismissal, Newbury.
  Worker's Dismissal, Newbury.
  FAIR WAGES RESOLUTION (COMMITTEE).
  FAIR WAGES RESOLUTION (COMMITTEE).
  MILITARY TRAINING (UNIVERSITY STUDENTS).
  MILITARY TRAINING (UNIVERSITY STUDENTS).
BRITISH ARMY.
  ROYAL ARTILLERY, SIERRA LEONE.
  ROYAL ARTILLERY, SIERRA LEONE.
  SOLDIERS' WIDOWS (PENSIONS).
  SOLDIERS' WIDOWS (PENSIONS).
  RESERVISTS (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
  RESERVISTS (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
  BRIGADE OF GUARDS (DRUMMER BOY'S ILLNESS).
  BRIGADE OF GUARDS (DRUMMER BOY'S ILLNESS).
  LAND PURCHASE, ANDOVERSFORD.
  LAND PURCHASE, ANDOVERSFORD.
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (PENSIONS).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (PENSIONS).
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, GREENOCK.
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, GREENOCK.

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Aldenham—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.

JARROW CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
STALYBRIDGE HYDE MOSSLEY AND DUKINFIELD TRANSPORT AND ELECTRICITY BOARD BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.

SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, Standing Order No. 107 requires that no Petition against a Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be received by your Lordships' House later than the seventh day after the First Reading. The petitioning time for this Bill expired on June 1. A Petition in respect of this Bill was received by the agents—not owing to the fault of the Petitioners, I think, but owing to a delay in the post—after the petitioning time had expired. The agents therefore asked that this Standing Order might be dispensed with in order that they might present a Petition. I may say that the agents for the promoters have raised no objection. I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 107 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of a Petition of Tennant Brothers Limited.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a: Amendments (Privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

POULTRY INDUSTRY BILL. [H.L.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to secure improvement in the health and quality of live poultry, and in the marketing of poultry and eggs; for making better provision for securing the marking of preserved eggs, and the enforcement of the Merchandise Marks Acts, 1887 to 1938, as respects imported eggs; for regulating the importation of poultry and eggs; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid. I move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, may I be allowed to congratulate the Government on at last introducing one of their more important Bills into your Lordships' House?
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CIVIL DEFENCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed three members to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider the Solicitors Bill, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of Tuesday last, and that they have made the following Orders: That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, and that two be the quorum.
SEA FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER (TOLLESBURY AND WEST MERSEA) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

MARRIAGE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
4.20 p.m.
LORD THANKERTON: My Lords, in rising to move that this Bill be now read
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a second time, I think I can explain in very brief language indeed the two objects of the Bill, and I can do it best by way of an illustration. If A and B both reside in England they can be married either by way of notice to the registrar and the consequent procedure, or after proclamation of banns. But if A resides in Scotland and B resides in England, the former procedure is not open to them, and they can only be married after proclamation of banns. There seems no obvious reason why this difference should exist, and under Clause 1 the difficulties in the way of this have been removed, and a marriage, either in England or in Scotland, between parties, one of whom resides in England and the other in Scotland, will be on exactly the same footing as if they both resided in the same country. That fully explains the purpose of Clause 1.
Clause 2 is a very small point. At present, if the parties are being married in England, the certificate of proclamation of banns in Scotland, which has to be used for the purpose of the marriage in England, can only be signed by a session clerk—it cannot be signed by the minister of the parish—whereas, if the marriage is taking place in Scotland, it can be signed by either the minister or the session clerk. The proposal of the second clause is that the minister should be authorised in the former case as in the latter to be an alternative authority for signing the certificate. These two points cover the whole object of the Bill, and I trust your Lordships will find it easy to give the measure a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Thankerton.)
4.22 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, not very long ago I had the pleasure of pronouncing a blessing, on behalf of the Government, upon a Bill introduced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thankerton, and I am in the same happy position again to-day. As your Lordships will have observed from the brief but extremely lucid explanation given by the noble and learned Lord of the objects of the Bill, it is a measure to increase the facilities for unions between English people and Scottish people. I should imagine that no one of your Lordships

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would wish to prevent so desirable an object, and I have much pleasure in expressing on behalf of the Government their approval and support of the Bill.
LORD ELTISLEY: May I ask how many persons are usually affected by the present regulations?
LORD THANKERTON: I am afraid I have no statistics on that point, but certainly a certain number must be affected.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

WHEAT (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
4.24 p.m.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords; in the last three years it has fallen to my lot to bring a number of long and complicated measures connected with the agricultural industry before your Lordships, and it may be said that the present Bill is the most intricate in its provisions of all the measures I have sponsored. But I will endeavour to explain as briefly as possible the main purpose of the Bill. In the first place, it makes no alteration in the fundamental principle of the Wheat Act, 1932. Your Lordships will recall that under that Act deficiency payments are made to registered wheat growers in the United Kingdom. Those payments represented the difference, less a small deduction for expenses, between the standard price of 10s. per cwt. and the price which is prescribed as the average price per cwt. obtained by all registered growers. This is subject to a scaling down of the payments when the quantity of mill-able wheat sold in any cereal year exceeds the amount estimated by the Minister as the "anticipated supply." Under the Agriculture Act, 1937, the maximum quantity of wheat which can rank for deficiency payment at the full rate in any year has been increased from 27,000,000 cwt. to 36,000,000 cwt.
The funds necessary for making these deficiency payments are raised by a levy, or in other words a quota payment, imposed on millers and importers of flour, in respect of all flour which they deliver. The administration of the Act is in the
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hands of the Wheat Commission, which consists of representatives of millers, flour importers, merchants, farmers and consumers with an independent Chairman and Vice-Chairman. The first Chairman was the late Lord Peel. When Lord Peel died tributes were paid in your Lordships' House to the many capacities in which he had served the State, and I would like to take this opportunity of adding a further tribute to the able way in which he presided over the Commission in its early years. I am sure the House will agree with me that the Act has been administered in a remarkably smooth and efficient manner, which reflects great credit upon the ability of the members and staff of the Commission. The Government count themselves fortunate in having obtained the services as Chairman of the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, whom I am glad to see in his place.
The principle of the Act of 1932 has commended itself strongly to the farmers, and I think I may say it has caused the minimum of difficulty to the other interests affected. But two questions have arisen which led the Government to decide that amending legislation was necessary. The first relates to the standard price of wheat, and the second to the definitions of flour and wheat offals. Under the principal Act a small Committee was appointed in 1935 to consider and report to my right honourable friend whether it was desirable to make any alteration in the standard price of 10s. per cwt. The Committee made a decided recommendation that it was undesirable at that time to make any alteration in the standard price, but that provision should be made for a further review after a period of years. The Government have accepted this proposal and under Clause 1 of the Bill there is provision for the setting up of a Standard Price Committee in the present year and thereafter at intervals of three years. In making their report the Committee are directed to consider general economic conditions and the conditions affecting the agricultural industry. Any amendment of the standard price would require to be confirmed by Parliament.
The second difficulty has arisen from the definition of flour and wheat offals. According to the 1932 Act, "flour" is subject to quota payment while "substances separated in the milling as wheat offals" are exempt, if they are used for

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feeding to animals or poultry. Despite the absence of any sharply drawn distinction between these two groups of commodities no difficulty arose—I think Lord Harlech will bear me out in this—except with a small class of imported products intermediate in quality between offals and low-grade feeding flour. The decisions of the Commission in certain cases falling within this class were challenged in the Courts, and the case of R. W. Paul, Limited, versus the Wheat Commission ultimately came before your Lordships' House in its judicial capacity. Without going into technicalities the essential point of the decision given was that the test of liability under the Statute should not be the precise character of the substance, but its method of production and the purpose for which it was to be used. The Wheat Commission held that this decision was directly opposed to the agreement between the interests concerned on which the quota provisions were based; that is, that all commercial flour of whatever quality and for whatever purpose it was used should be liable for quota payment. The Commission also said that this decision would raise many administrative difficulties. Meanwhile, the associations representing the millers, flour importers and corn merchants entered into a Gentleman's Agreement with the Wheat Commission in which they undertook to use their influence to prevent any claim being made that low-grade flour should escape quota payment. As a result of this most helpful step it has been possible to go into the matter thoroughly and to arrive at what I think is a generally acceptable solution in regard to the main issues before bringing this Bill forward.
The solution proposed is embodied in the new and precise definition of wheat offals—or, as they are now to be termed under the Bill "wheat by-products"—which is contained in Clause 4 of the Bill. Any product of milling which does not fall within that definition is defined as flour and will be liable to quota payment. But I think it should be noticed that Clause 6 provides for a reduced rate of quota payment on certain low grades of flour which are destined for livestock—it was a disadvantage of the principal Act that if a border-line product was pronounced to be flour the Commission had no alternative but to levy the full quota payment. The effect of the changes to which I have drawn your Lordships' attention is that now
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we have an agreed definition of flour and wheat by-products which is easy to apply and which will remove doubts in the administration of the 1932 Act.
While putting forward their proposals for dealing with the situation created by the Paul judgment, the Wheat Commission suggested that several other amendments should be made in the principal Act. These were for the most part amendments designed to remove doubts and to facilitate administration, and they account for the bulk of the remaining clauses of which your Lordships will notice there are 32 in all. I will refer briefly to only one or two proposals of considerable importance which are incorporated in the Bill. Under the 1932 Act wheat meal used as animal food is exempt from quota payment. The Commission were anxious to see some safeguard against the risk of quota-free meal being diverted to uses other than stock feeding, but the Government, on the other hand, were unwilling to depart from the original intention, which was that there should not be by the passing of the Statute any direct handicap placed upon either the livestock or the poultry industry. It is hoped that these objects will be attained by Clause 7 of the Bill.
Wheaten breakfast foods are given rather special treatment by Clauses 11 and 12. There is some doubt about the present position of these foods in relation to quota payment, but they certainly do not fall clearly within the present definition of flour, and there have been a number of protests against their freedom from liability. On the other hand, the manufacturers and importers of these foods can argue with some force, I think, that their real competition is not with bread but with non-wheaten breakfast foods. The Government therefore concluded that before deciding this question of liability the Minister of Agriculture should be advised by an impartial Committee. The effect of Clause 11 is to grant to manufacturers of wheaten breakfast foods exemption from liability to quota payment until August 1, 1940, when they will become liable unless exempted by order of the Minister. Applications for exemption will be referred to the Reference Committee to be appointed under Clause 24. Clause 12 is designed to put the importer of breakfast foods, and also the importer of other foods having a wheaten content, such as

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macaroni, into approximately the same position as the home manufacturers as far as quota payments are concerned, but that is done by a somewhat different procedure.
A further point to which your Lordships will, I think, attach importance, is the power given to the Wheat Commission by Clause 23 to make grants in aid of research and education in regard to the growing, marketing and utilisation of wheat. This will bring the scope of the Commission into line with other bodies set up in recent agricultural legislation. I hope that the House will be content with this somewhat technical but brief preliminary explanation of a very complicated and intricate Bill. I have refrained from going into greater detail of the provisions because no doubt in the course of debate certain issues will be raised and, with the consent of your Lordships, I shall have an opportunity to reply to them at the conclusion of the debate. I beg to move that the Bill be given a Second Reading.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
4.40 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, my noble friends and myself do not propose to offer any formal or serious opposition to the Second Reading of this Bill. It is undoubtedly a very complex measure and it deals with a most important subject. To master its details requires special knowledge of farming and wheat production, but there are certain general questions concerning which we have some anxiety, and the details of the Bill will of course be the subject of consideration at a later stage. Our interest seems to centre especially in Clause 1, and as far as we can see the situation now we are far from being satisfied with what the Bill provides. Speaking generally, it would appear that the consumer of bread is to pay some £9,000,000 more for the bread that he consumes, but that there is no provision whereby the farmer who produces the wheat gets a fair share of the profits. It would appear that the millers and the middlemen are to receive the chief benefit of this measure. We should prefer that there should be established a proper marketing organisation under which the farmers would be able to market their wheat efficiently and with
504
profit to themselves. That is a question which we shall probably have to urge upon your Lordships in greater detail when the Committee stage of the Bill is reached. To-day I need only say again that, whilst being far from satisfied with some of the provisions in the Bill, we do not propose to resist a Second Reading.
4.43 p.m.
LORD HARLECH: My Lords, I feel it my duty as Chairman of the Wheat Commission to thank the Government for proceeding with this Bill. A great part of its provisions is the result of suggestions that have been made from time to time by the Wheat Commission in the light of their experience of the working of the 1932 Act. It is, as both noble Lords have said, an amending Bill of a highly technical and complex character, and it is that because any measure dealing with a question of this kind in the light of the experience of a novel experiment—for the Act of 1932 was a novel experiment—is bound to be complex. Undoubtedly a large number of the provisions of this Bill arise out of the legal decisions that have been given in the Courts on the interpretation of the Act of 1932. We have to remember that the purpose of that Act was to levy on flour a sufficient sum of money each year to pay wheat growers in this country the difference between the price they got in the free markets of this country for their wheat and a standard price fixed by Parliament.
The noble Lord who has just spoken alarmed me when he said that as he read Clause 1 there was a prospect that the human consumers of flour would have to pay an additional £9,000,000. I can assure him that unless the Government are going to make, and Parliament agrees to, a standard price something like double what it is to-day, that is not likely to occur. It is true that this year, owing to the fact that the last harvest in the United Kingdom was a bumper harvest for wheat, and owing to the fact that during the past season wheat has been at an almost unprecedentedly low price throughout the world, something like £9,000,000 in all was necessary for the payment of the difference between what the British growers of wheat have obtained in the free markets of this country and the present standard price of 45s. a quarter. Admittedly the scale of our operations as a Wheat Commission

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this year has been unprecedentedly large, both in the quantity of wheat ranking for deficiency payment and the amount of revenue we have had to obtain by the quota on all kinds of flour.
I will not detain your Lordships by saying anything about Clauses 1 and 2, which deal with a matter of policy—that is to say, what the standard price should be on which deficiency payments are to be based. That is a particular political and financial issue on which anybody can express an opinion, but I feel it my duty to say one or two words on Clauses 4 to 15 which are the vital administrative clauses from the Wheat Commission's point of view. The whole problem arises from the fact that until this Bill was produced there was no satisfactory objective definition of what wheaten substances were to be regarded as flour liable to quota payment to find revenue for the Wheat Commission, and of what wheaten substances are or are not wheat offals. That has been the cause of major difficulties of recent years. Ever since the Paul judgment, to which the noble Earl who introduced the Bill referred, the technical officers of the Ministry of Agriculture, the various interests represented on the Wheat Commission and people like the Government Chemist, have been hard at work trying to find the necessary definition without which all concerned were quite uncertain as to what would have to pay quota and what would not have to pay quota.
At this moment the quota payment that it is necessary to demand from millers and importers of flour and from merchants and the like, in order to pay British wheat growers what Parliament intended them to have, is 6s. 6d. a sack, which is a very large sum of money and makes a great difference to many people. It is important, therefore, to know exactly what a man has to pay quota on, and it is essential that there should be no doubt in the future about it. The scientists have come to our aid—and here let me say that we owe a great deal not only to the technical work of the Government Chemist but also to the chemists employed by the milling industry itself and their technical advisers, who co-operated with the Government Chemist in finding accurate objective scientific definitions. The basic and, from our point of view, the most valuable clause in the Bill is
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Clause 4, which deals with this problem of ash content, by which you will judge whether the substance is flour liable to quota payment or whether it is wheat offals not liable to quota payment.
I will not go into further technical details except in regard to Clause 7. In another place there has been a little trouble over Clause 7 (2), and a great deal of it, I think, arose out of misunderstanding. A pledge was given in another place by the Minister in charge of the Bill that the Wheat Commission should be invited to study the debates on that subsection and to consider whether from their point of view—of course they are not to be decisive—any Amendment to that subsection was or was not desirable. The day before yesterday, last Tuesday afternoon, I presided over a full meeting of the Wheat Commission, and there were present representatives of the millers, the flour importers, the corn merchants and provender millers, the Farmers' Union, the manufacturers of biscuits, and the consumers—the co-operative movements and the rest of it. We had a full meeting of the Commission to go into this matter and we discussed it at no little length. At the end we passed a unanimous recommendation—of everybody there and all the interests—urging the Government not to make any Amendment to Clause 7 (2). That is the subsection which says that you shall not put on to the market a substance composed of wheat meal (a particular form of wheat) for feeding to livestock unless it is admixed with an equal weight of non-wheaten substance. I may say that for our afternoon meal one of the members of the Commission produced for us two admirable loaves of bread, both good in appearance and appetising in taste, which were composed of 75 per cent. of wheat and 25 per cent. of non-wheaten substance.
I think they, as well as the argument, convinced the Commission—they certainly convinced me—that if permission is given to put on the market, free of quota, wheat meal not mixed with 50 per cent. of non-wheaten substance, we shall have a large number of loaves and cakes in the bakers' shops and groceries of this country which have evaded the quota payment which it is the intention of Parliament that they should pay. Under the Act of 1932 there was a certain safeguard that these various wheaten substances

507
other than flour, the definition of which has broken down under that Act, should be "without further manufacture." I do not say that this mixture of 75 per cent. of wheat meal and 25 per cent. of rye or whatever it is could be made into a good bread without further manufacture, but in this Bill it has been the deliberate policy of the Government—and the Wheat Commission do not wish to challenge it—to do away with the safeguard of "without further manufacture." Those words are to be deleted from the Statute Book because it is in the interests of the livestock feeders, and particularly of the poultry feeders, that they should be able to get as cheaply as possible, and in the most useful form for the purposes of their industry, wheaten substances which have been further manufactured for the purposes of feeding to livestock and poultry.
So that limitation "without further manufacture," having been deleted, becomes all the more necessary unless we are to have a complete breakdown of the administration of the Act and complete facility is to be given to evade the intention to submit to quota payment flour used for human consumption to help the wheat growers. We shall have new processes and new industries started simply for the purpose of evading quota payments. In a year like the present year, when quota payments are as high as 6s. 6d. per sack of flour, there is a great incentive to all and sundry to drive a coach and four through the intentions of Parliament and to evade quota payments by delivering substances to a farmer nominally to feed livestock but telling him he can send it back to another miller so that the flour can be extracted or other manufacturing processes undertaken. Thus the whole intention of Parliament and the whole basis of our revenue could be destroyed. I have, I think, made it clear that we have always felt that.
But may I say one other thing?—and this I say not so much as Chairman of the Wheat Commission as one who is equally interested in agriculture—that one of the dangers I foresee is that, unless the provisions with regard to dilution are adhered to, there will be a tendency to put upon the market, for poultry feeders especially, not a balanced ration—that is, the best ration for the poultry feeders—but a mixture far too rich in wheat. It
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is not desirable in the interests of stock feeders, in the interests of sound nutrition of stock or poultry, to have a mixture too rich in wheat. I think that everybody familiar with feeding will bear me out that, particularly at certain times of the year and under certain climatic conditions, corn feeding-stuff too rich in wheat is not desirable. As at this present moment wheat is very cheap, and although we expect maize will probably go down—maize at the moment is rather high—there would be that tendency, unless that further safeguard were in this Bill which is in it at present. Not only for the purpose of preventing evasion of the intention of Parliament, but also in the interests of the livestock and poultry-feeding industry itself, you should take care that you do not by the inevitable consequences of an Act of Parliament start entirely new trade habits in industries and alter existing trade habits in industries against the interests of growers.
May I say that my experience of the Wheat Commission in the last nine months has been a singularly happy one in that, though divergent interests are represented on that Commission, they have always shown themselves, ever since the passing of the Act, ready to see each other's point of view and come to fair all-round compromises? I should like, particularly in view of the last controversies that have led up to what is really the basis of Clauses 4 to 15 of this Bill, to pay a particular tribute to the part played by the representatives of the Farmers' Union, as well as by the millers, in the very able advice and counsel they have given to the Wheat Commission. Admittedly some of these complex clauses are the results of compromises worked out, or unanimously agreed, in the Wheat Commission, and I am sure that it is in the interests of a Bill of this kind that the good will and good feeling between the various sections represented on the Wheat Commission should continue in the future as in the past. It certainly will make my duty as impartial Chairman all the easier. Therefore, I sincerely hope that except for purely drafting points—nobody knows what Parliamentary draftsmen will produce at the last moment—at any rate no Amendments of substance, altering these technical clauses, which will necessitate any further meetings or negotiations and discussions in the Wheat Commission, will be found

509
necessary, and that substantially Clauses 4 and 7, in particular, will be passed by this House as they come to them from another place. I will not take up any more of your Lordships' time by talking on what is necessarily a very technical subject, but merely add that the Wheat Commission are only anxious that this Bill should reach the Statute Book at the earliest possible moment.
5.3 p.m.
LORD CRANWORTH: My Lords, as a farmer I would e to welcome this Bill and to express the hope that it will get a Second Reading. I welcome it not only on its own merits, but because it is a fulfilment of a promise given more than once, and also because it is a first instalment of the new drive of the Government to give agriculture its proper place in our industry. As it is the first instalment of that policy I should like humbly to express my good wishes to the new Minister of Agriculture, who is introducing in another place, I think to-day, another still more important instalment of that policy. I venture to hope that the experience he has had in riding the somewhat troubled waters of 45, Bedford Square, will enable him to ride with some measure of safety the far more tempestuous seas of 10, Whitehall Place. I am rather glad that this first instalment of the new policy is in connection with arable land, because recently we have heard such a lot about grass land, and such a little about arable land—and this I think is largely due to that great genius, Professor Sir George Stapledon, who has shown to the people of this country not only what a bad state much of their grass is in, but how much of it can be made into good grass. I think it is sometimes forgotten that much of that land remains poor grass land because it is not a sufficiently good economic proposition to make it into good grass.
While considering the question of wheat, I would like to give one or two of those exceedingly dull things, figures, to your Lordships. In the first place, where 100 acres of ordinary grass land in this country produces food for twenty people, if that land is broken up, and properly broken up and put under the plough, it will produce food for eighty people, or four times as many. Of cultivable land in this country, we have less than 40 per cent. under the plough. In Germany they have over 75 per cent.
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under the plough, and in France over 70 per cent. Here, I think, is a really very striking comparison which I know to be approximately accurate. In this country we produce the bread equivalent of 75 lbs. a year for each inhabitant of these islands. In Germany they produce just under 500 lbs. per head of the population, and in France just over 500 lbs. per head of the population. That is rather a striking difference, I feel. There is just one further figure which I think is of some interest, and it is this: although the land of Germany is generally recognised by agriculturists to be as a whole of less good quality than the land of this country, they produce in Germany, on 100 acres, 33 tons of cereals whereas we produce 15 tons.
The Wheat Act of 1932 is said to-day to be, and is generally recognised as having been, by far the most effective measure to help agriculture that has been produced of late years. It has stimulated employment, and kept land under the plough—indeed I doubt if without it arable farming would exist to-day—and I think on that account it is well worth while to study why it has been effective. I would venture to put before your Lordships three reasons. The first is that it takes into consideration the cost of production. The second is that it takes into consideration the necessary balance of agriculture, in that, as the noble Earl has said, the guaranteed price begins to go down if a certain amount of wheat has been produced. Whether that amount is sufficiently high, of course there will be a question. But it does to that extent consider the balance of agriculture. The third reason is that it is, I think, the only measure that makes use of the levy subsidy, and although there are some of us who would rather that the levy was a levy put upon the foreign exporter, nevertheless it is a levy and the levy subsidy is one of the reasons, I venture to assert, why that Act has been so successful in this country.
Taking the Bill itself, it consists of 32 clauses. One clause is of great importance, and 31 are of less importance. The first clause is the one that is of importance, because it is that clause which shows the method whereby the price given to the farmer for wheat will be reviewed. It is an old undertaking that it should be reviewed, and it is going

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to be reviewed this year, and again at intervals of three years. It is going to be reviewed by a Committee. I am bound to say that when I first heard a new Committee would sit I was a little scared, because it has always appeared to me that when there was any trouble a new Committee was always set up. I notice, however, one good thing about this Committee. It is a Committee of three, and although there are some who say that a Committee of one is the best, I think everyone will agree that if we cannot have a Committee of one, a Committee of three is the best. The members of this Committee of three have a pretty difficult task in front of them, and I venture to press upon the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that it would be desirable that at least one of the three Committee-men should have some practical knowledge of the growing of wheat. I know it is generally considered amongst those who are not farmers that farming is a very easy job, and that everyone can do it; but as a matter of fact those who have made money, and the many more who have lost money, know that farming is not an easy job. The growing of wheat and a knowledge of all the circumstances connected with wheat are not an easy job; they are an extremely difficult and intricate job; and unless you have men with agricultural knowledge they will not even be able to weigh the evidence put before them. I therefore do most seriously suggest to the noble Earl that it would be right and proper that at least one of these three members of that Committee should have some practical knowledge of the production of wheat.
It would not, I think, be right to go far into the question of what this Committee may decide. They would have the power of keeping the price as it is now, and they would have the power of recommending the reduction of that price. I am bound to say on that that I noticed with some surprise, in the very admirable book produced by the noble Lord, Lord Addison, the statement that in his opinion the price was much too high, and that the price should be approximately 37s. 6d. I could not but think that that was a rather remarkable way of making farming pay, which the noble Lord, when he was Minister of Agriculture, as I well remember, said was the first essential for farming. On the other hand, the Committee
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of course may put up the price, and I think it is fair to say that if the price of 45s. a quarter, which was settled in 1932, was a fair and just one—and I have heard very little criticism in any quarter as to that price—one may assume that any change would be in the direction of a rise, seeing that the cost of producing a quarter of wheat has risen by at least five shillings. I think there would be no difficulty in proving that.
Then there is a large part of the Bill, to which the noble Earl has alluded, which concerns the extracting of quota payments for substances containing wheat flour from people who have so far failed to pay their proper quota. Most of these clauses are quite unintelligible to the layman, and at one time I should have thought that such unintelligibility was rather a cause of annoyance, but as I mellow with old age I do appreciate that those who draft Bills have a very dull and dreary life, and I feel that it would be somewhat churlish on our part to grudge them their little amusements, of which I feel this Bill must have been one of the greatest
I have only one more criticism, and that refers to Clause 27, which has not yet been alluded to, in which power is taken to increase the number of members of the Wheat Commission from seventeen to twenty. Seventeen seems to me to be a very handsome figure for a Commission; indeed I venture to say, from my experience of Commissions or Committees, it is a great deal too big. It becomes almost a debating society. Seventeen people are quite capable of spending the whole day discussing a thing which three will finish in a remarkably short time, and I find it very difficult to believe that the addition of three to make the round number of twenty is likely to have any good effect. I hope that the noble Earl will at a later time explain the reason for this addition. I feel that this Bill is a small, but nevertheless useful, start in the great efforts that the Government are making to place agriculture not only in its proper position but on an equal footing with the other great industries of this country, and I am quite sure that your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
5.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: My Lords, I intervene for a very few minutes only

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because, as the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, so rightly said, this is a very difficult Bill to understand. When I read it, I tried to do so with understanding, and I am afraid I failed completely. But I read sufficient to realise that it was a Bill which was designed to fill in the gaps which experience has shown to exist as the result of the original Wheat Act. I also read sufficient to find out that there was one gap of which I am quite certain the noble Earl in charge of the Bill has knowledge, but which is not touched upon in this Bill. One of the results of the original Wheat Act has been that in a great number of cases there has been on farms an excessive cropping of wheat, with the result that the fertility of the land concerned has been decreased very considerably. The fertility of the land is a very important national matter.
As my noble friend Lord Cranworth mentioned, there is a further Bill in another place, I believe being debated to-day, which deals with various matters, among other things oats and barley, and in that Bill it is proposed that those who receive assistance for the growing of oats and barley should be under a penalty of some reduction of their assistance it their cultivation of the crop is not adequate and does not have regard to the fertility of the soil. So far as wheat is concerned, there is absolutely no provision that I know of to ensure anything similar; that is to say, the wheat grower can, if he wishes, virtually grow wheat crop after wheat crop, to the detriment and pauperisation of his land and to the harm of the country. I think that is something which should be remedied. In the old days, when the landlord had the power, he saw to it that his land did not depreciate. To-day the landlord virtually has no such power, and his tenant can almost do as he likes. Further than that, there is a great deal of land in this country to-day not farmed under the landlord and tenant system, and I am informed that in some cases the trouble has got so far that there are so-called farming companies who buy land, grow wheat on that land by mechanical cultivation and the cheapest possible methods for so long as they can continue to grow any wheat at all, and then sell the land, go and buy elsewhere and start all over again. Whether that is true or not I do not know of my own knowledge, but
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I am informed that it is so, and that is a disastrous thing for the country. I hope that the noble Earl may be able to tell us in his reply whether the Government have anything in their mind to ensure that that process which is now going on will be put a stop to.
I feel fairly certain that the answer that will be given is that in the case of wheat the assistance given is on the yield of the wheat, and is not a per-acre assistance. That is so, and it should work, but the fact is there that it does not work, and that too much wheat is, in cases, being grown, to the detriment of the land, and the position has not been helped by the increase in the total volume of the wheat which ranks for assistance. I do not know whether any Amendment is suitable to this Bill, which is so largely a Bill dealing with the machinery of the administration of the original Act. I am quite certain that it cannot go into the Bill which is being considered in another place, because that does not mention wheat, but it would be helpful if the noble Earl could give some reply to that question.
5.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, as is customary in your Lordships' House, we have this afternoon had the advantage of listening to a debate of a high standard in respect of agricultural matters, which is all the more interesting because of the fact, traditional in your Lordships' House, that we have not confined ourselves to the strict limitations of the Bill before the House. If we had done so, the House would have been unfortunate in losing the particularly interesting figures provided by the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, in respect of the proportion of arable cultivation in this country and Germany. I should be much interested, as indeed other members of your Lordships' House will be, to look more closely into those figures and to have an opportunity of analysing them before making any comment on them. It is sufficient to say that the noble Lord must be well gratified, as he has this afternoon pointed out, that not only does this Bill amend the Wheat Act of 1932 so as to obtain an efficient administration, but the Bill which is at present before another place is likely to give incentive to all those with potential arable land to increase their cultivation owing to the fact

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that for the first time they can receive State subsidies on barley and oats as well as on wheat.
The noble Lord, Lord Snell, in his opening remarks, referred to the fact that he was apprehensive that the Wheat Act, which placed, in his opinion, a financial penalty on consumers, was in effect working to the benefit of the millers and merchants rather than of the farmer. Lord Harlech has spoken in reply to that question, but I should like to add that, in the first place, it can be said that the country with its vast number of consumers is better off with the Act than without it. I say that for these reasons. As the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, indicated, the Act had resulted in an increase of the area under wheat in this country from an average of a little over 1,300,000 acres in the three years 1929 to 1931 to more than 1,900,000 acres in 1938, which is an increase of nearly 50 per cent. This increase in peace time naturally means a reduction in our dependence upon imports, which must undoubtedly be a potent factor in preventing high prices in times of world scarcity, and if war should come its importance is likely to be out of all proportion to its cost. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, referred to the increase in the price of bread to the consumer. I have had supplied to me figures which show that over an average of the seven years of the working of this Act the increase has been something less than one farthing per 2 lb. loaf, so in these circumstances, thinking not only of the conditions and the times in which we live but also of the possibility of an emergency, it seems that the fractional premium paid by the country at large is well worth while.
I am very gratified to learn from the Chairman of the Wheat Commission that at a meeting recently held they decided with unanimity that Clause 7, subsection (2), of the Bill was satisfactory as it stood. The noble Lord has gone into the technical question relating to that clause, and I would say for the information of this House that Amendments were only moved to the clause as it originally stood because representations were made on behalf of the small millers and farmers that the percentages of dilution were not satisfactory. Therefore we proposed that it should be in the ratio of 75 per cent. to 25 per cent. instead of the 50–50 basis. Finally, another place reversed its former criticism,
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and I am glad to hear that all parties represented on the Wheat Commission are agreed that the clause is better as it now stands.
The noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, referred to the Standard Price Committee which is set up under Clause 1, and he made the comment that, although the complement of the Committee would be right, it was at fault because of the fact that no person qualified in agricultural practice was to serve on the Committee—at least that was not laid down in the Bill. I would point out to my noble friend that the terms of reference of such a Committee cover questions as to which it is essential to have an unbiased opinion and impartiality. If the noble Lord refers back to the Report of the 1935 Committee, he will there find that the Committee dealt with such wide subjects as the world supply of wheat, the price of bread to the consumer, and other similar matters. Therefore it would be unwise in this particular instance to specify that a member of that Committee should have technical knowledge of the practices of agriculture.
Lord Cranworth expressed doubt as to the wisdom of setting up further Committees. I agree with the general sentiment, but I would point out that this is not a new Committee. It was provided for in the original Act, and it has already served its purpose by submitting one Report. It is intended that a similar Committee should be set up so that in this year it will have an opportunity of making the recommendation that the noble Lord calls for, in view of the fact, as he has told the House, that the cost of production must have gone up considerably since the original Act was passed. The noble Lord also referred to the size of the Wheat Commission. I am informed that it is necessary to add to the size of that Commission in order that there may be room for representatives of the breakfast food industry should that be desirable. I am also told that the section that is represented by the smaller millers consider that their representation is insufficiently large, and it has been proposed by the Wheat Commission themselves that it should be augmented. There can be no doubt that my noble friend Lord Harlech, who has shown such great skill in the management of the Commission of its present size, will be able to conduct with equal skill the affairs of the larger Commission.

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My noble friend Lord Radnor referred to a matter of very great importance when he stated that in this Bill there is not a provision similar to that which is included in the Agriculture Act, 1937, and which is also included in the Agricultural Development Bill at present being debated in another place in respect of the maintenance of the fertility of the arable areas. The Government, of course, are fully alive to the undesirability of any form of cereal subsidies encouraging bad cultivation or leading to over-cropping and thus diminishing the fertility of the soil. There is no doubt that in the last two years there has been a great deal of cross cropping—wheat followed by wheat—which in many instances has led to a reduction of fertility. But the answer to the point why a provision of the character to which the noble Earl referred is not included in this Bill, is the one which was indicated by the noble Earl himself. I am inclined to think, from the experience I have had at the Ministry, that administrative difficulties can generally be surmounted—difficulties which have resulted as often as not in complicated legislation which has come before this House. But in this case I do not think that can be done.
It is proposed in this Bill to make payment by way of monetary subsidy which falls eventually upon the consumer. In the case of barley and oats it is a subsidy on an acreage basis, and in the case of those two crops it is easy for the 300 crop reporters and the staff of the Ministry of Agriculture to see that a crop is negligently cultivated or that because the land has had cereal cultivation in previous years its fertility has been injured. In the case of the wheat payment it is impossible to differentiate between the production of one field and another field because payment is only made through the channels of the middleman. In fact it would be administratively impossible to work. But if a fanner crops his land consistently with cereal crops without any intervening root crops, his oats and barley subsidy payments can be reduced under the new Bill, so the position is improved to this extent, that the fertility of the land will only be impaired by the farmer who grows wheat upon wheat.
It is to be expected that the assistance that is to be given to the oats and barley
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growers will help to restore that better balance between wheat and other cereals to which my noble friend Lord Cranworth referred. We shall have an opportunity of debating that very important question at a later stage when the Agricultural Development Bill comes before this House, but I hope my noble friend Lord Radnor, and those he represents on the Central Landowners' Association, will see the reason why such a provision as he has advocated cannot be incorporated in this measure, which is essentially one of a technical character. I regret that I have not dealt with all the points raised, but I hope at least that I have covered some of the main criticisms that have been put forward in the course of the debate.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MARRIAGES VALIDITY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

DEFENCE: SUPPLY.
LORD DAVIES LORD DAVIES rose to ask what steps are being taken to expedite the supply of munitions and armaments necessary for national defence and honouring our commitments to other countries; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Resolution that stands in my name. May I say at the outset that I have no intention of asking the noble Lord who speaks for the Government that any information should be given to your Lordships' House which he considers to be not in the public interest? On the other hand, I am sure that in these critical times your Lordships will welcome an assurance that everything possible is being done to expedite the production of munitions and to put this country in a proper state of defence. Your Lordships will remember that a few days ago the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, told us that the people of this country would be willing, should the necessity arise, to face any emergency and to repel any attack, however sudden and devastating, which may be launched against them. I believe this is profoundly true, because when the crisis came last September the vast majority of men and women throughout the country displayed great coolness and courage. If people are again confronted

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by a similar emergency I venture to think they would display the same resolution and fortitude. Therefore, if I may be allowed to do so, I should like to appeal to the Government to take the nation into their confidence—within the limits, of course, enforced by prudence and the public interest—in the firm belief that whatever service or sacrifice may be demanded there would be an immediate and overwhelming response.
There are certain particular facts which I think must give us all grounds for some anxiety as to whether the most strenuous and determined efforts have been undertaken to make good the defects in our defensive system, and especially to expedite the production of armaments not only for the equipment of our own forces, but also, should the necessity unfortunately arise, for the purpose of assisting our friends and allies as we were compelled to do in the last War. Everyone I think realises that during the past five or six years some European States have been feverishly rearming themselves at an unprecedented rate. I have looked up the figures and I find that the estimated amount which has been spent by Germany during the five year period 1933–38 was no less than £2,800,000,000. The corresponding figure for this country and France put together was £1,340,000,000—about half the amount spent by Germany. I cannot help feeling that these figures show that there is a big leeway to be made up, and in considering the adverse balance we cannot forget that since last March the Axis Powers have acquired the armament works in Czecho-Slovakia which have always been regarded as the main source of supply for the States of South Eastern Europe.
Secondly, we are told that there is no unemployment in the Axis countries. Every available man, and I believe a great many women, are working long hours on fortifications, in munition factories and on other work of a military character. Moreover, there are, I believe, thousands of men who have been imported from further afield to assist in these military undertakings. Thousands of Czechs, for example, have been sent from their homes to work in Germany. Let us contrast this state of affairs with the conditions in this country. Here we have still, unfortunately, nearly 1,500,000
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unemployed on the registers. It is true that there has been a decrease in recent weeks, but on January 16 the figure stood at 2,300,000. I imagine your Lordships will ask why is it that with so much leeway to make up the services of these unemployed people are not being utilised to provide alternative means of transport, better roads, to make provision for the storage of food and other things, and in other ways to expedite and to strengthen our national defences. I must confess that, having regard to the magnitude of the task with which the Government have been confronted during the past few years, I cannot understand why it is that the services of the unemployed have not been utilised, and why they have not been provided with work, which of course they would be only too willing and too anxious to do, in building up the defences of their country.
Thirdly, I sometimes wonder whether we realise the extreme gravity of the present situation. If we have realised it, why is it that we have allowed so many months to pass before creating a Ministry of Supply? Those of us who recollect what happened during the last War must realise how essential the establishment of such a Ministry is in order to avoid overlapping and in order to utilise our industrial resources to the best advantage. I cannot understand why the powers entrusted to the new Ministry have not covered the whole field of supply to all the Fighting and all the passive Defence Services—why the new Department has not been modelled on the old Ministry of Munitions which rendered such notable service to the country during the last War.
The apprehensions which I believe exist in the minds of some people—perhaps a great many people—are not allayed when we consider the armament policy which has been pursued by successive Governments in this country since the War. Roughly I think this may be divided into three periods. First of all there is the period which may be described as the unilateral period when we disarmed ourselves to what I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer once described as "the edge of risk." During those years unfortunately our Air Force, which at the end of the War was, I believe, the strongest and most efficient in the world, descended from the first to the fifth place in the list. The second

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period began in December, 1935, when the tension with Italy over Abyssinia reached an acute stage and apparently the Government at that time discovered that there were serious deficiencies in the equipment of the Fighting Services. I believe the noble Lord, Lord Chatfield, at that time occupied the responsible position of First Sea Lord. Perhaps he will be able to tell your Lordships what the position really was at that time and what steps were taken afterwards to make good those deficiencies.
The second period, I suggest, covers 1936 and 1937 and down to the crisis last September. It lasted for about three years when the rearmament programme which was announced during that period was supposed to be in lull swing. Your Lordships will remember that during the War it took us approximately two years—from August, 1914, to July, 1916, when the offensive opened on the Somme—to get the country into its stride so far as military preparation—especially the output of munitions—was concerned. Therefore one would have imagined that, even with all the handicaps which fifteen years of unilateral disarmament had imposed upon us, a resolute and determined Government could have placed our defences in an impregnable position during those three years from 1935 to 1938. But unfortunately, when the end of the second period came last September, more gaps and deficiencies were disclosed. In another place the former Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence said:
"Nobody … can be unaware of the fact that there have been gaps, serious gaps, and defects which must be remedied in our preparations."
Of course the usual recriminations followed, new promises of speedy improvement were given, and we were told that the rearmament programme was to be accelerated. I agree that recriminations are useless at this stage and that it is no use crying over spilt milk. But what I think your Lordships want to know is how far these promises have been fulfilled and, in view of recent events and commitments, what steps the Government now propose to take in order to increase and accelerate the delivery of munitions, to build up a supply of reserve material, and generally to put ourselves in a state of preparedness.
In passing, may I say one word about the office of the Minister for the Co-Ordination of Defence? I assume that the function of the noble Lord, Lord Chatfield, is to co-ordinate the activities of those Departments which direct the Fighting Services. "Co-ordination," of course, is a blessed word, and sometimes, I fear, it is more honoured in the breach than in the observance; but may I ask the noble Lord if he can tell us how far he is able to co-ordinate the measures, not only for active but also for passive defence, undertaken by the A.R.P., the Home Office and other Departments in order as far as possible to avoid overlapping and confusion? I do not know, but I imagine that it is impossible to draw a hard-and-fast line between measures of active defence on the one hand and what is described as passive defence on the other, and that there are many points where the one impinges upon the other. The noble Lord will, I am sure, be able to reassure us that everything possible is being done to secure the closest co-operation, especially in the matter of supply, between the various Departments, and between these Departments and the local authorities, who are also involved in these arrangements.
It is not necessary for me to direct your Lordships' attention to the vast changes which have taken place during the last twenty years in what may be called the technique of war. We all know that a declaration of war has now become an anachronism, and that the initial blow may be delivered without the slightest warning and may come as a bolt from the blue. To-day, of course, there is no lag period, as in former times, between mobilisation and the actual outbreak of hostilities. This means, of course, that owing to the development of the air, the element of surprise has been exploited in a way which was hitherto deemed impossible. I do not propose to labour this point, because your Lordships are all familiar with it, but what I want to try to emphasize is that under these conditions, when it is or may be a question of minutes or hours, it is insufficient merely to have plans on paper for what we propose to do when war actually comes. Many, I suggest, if not all of these plans should be put into operation before and not after the event; otherwise, obviously, they will fail in the purpose for which they were intended.
The essential thing, and I am sure the noble Lord opposite will agree with this, is that what are described as nerve-centres or vital points, which include munition works, transport services, water supplies and industrial and power plant—all those concerns which are essential to the war economy of the country—should be protected now in some order of priority as the defensive equipment becomes available. I have no doubt that the noble Lord the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence and his staff are alive to the importance of this aspect of the problem and are doing their best to speed up the delivery of the antiaircraft guns, searchlights and other equipment which are so urgently needed. But even if all this material is not yet available, I should like to ask the noble Lord if there is any reason why these vital points should not be guarded by troops capable of preventing acts of sabotage or raids, either organised by enemy agents in this country or undertaken by armed squads transported by aeroplanes from abroad.
I am sure your Lordships must be impressed by the extraordinary feat we read about a few weeks ago when several thousands of fully-armed men were transported in a few hours from Italy to Tirana, the capital of Albania. What is to prevent an enemy from launching a series of raids by air on vital points—our water supplies, for example—and inflicting enormous damage almost before the war has commenced? I understand that it is feasible for raiding parties to be landed either by parachute or on our lakes and reservoirs by aeroplanes, and the fact, of course, that such raiding parties may be completely lost and wiped out will not deter those who are responsible from sending them if they imagine that irreparable damage can be inflicted in the space of a few hours. Some of these places are no doubt remote and inaccessible, but that, I imagine, is all the more reason why they should be adequately protected. During the last two weeks I have visited some of these places, and I venture to draw the attention of the noble Lord to the risks which may possibly—I do not know—be involved. Of course I do not profess to be in any sense an expert on these matters, but surely, if certain contingencies which we have never had to face before and
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the consequences of which might be very disastrous are now in the realms of possibility, it is only reasonable to take such precautions as are feasible at this moment, and not to wait until the blow has been struck.
I do not want to enter into any details regarding the inadequacy of our military supplies and equipment, but only this morning I read in The Times the following passage from an account given by their special correspondent at present with the Territorial Army. This is what he said:
"Many special courses have been arranged for officers and men of the training units. One deals with the Bren gun carrier, but is somewhat hampered because only seven carriers are available for the whole brigade. Bren gun instruction is also much hampered in both training and recruits' units because of a scarcity of these weapons. The brigade has only a quarter of the number of Bren guns necessary for proper instruction."
This only confirms, of course, the statement made a few days ago, at Llandudno, by Mr. J. C. Little, President of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, when he said that he had watched the output of munitions in this country for the past two years with some concern, and from reliable sources he had learned that the shortage of Bren guns was such in the Territorial Army that there was only one gun for every ten required. Similar apprehensions regarding other deficiencies have been expressed by Captain Liddell Hart, the military correspondent of The Times, Major General Temperley and Group Captain Payne in the Daily Telegraph, the military correspondent of the Manchester Guardian, and many other experts. Unfortunately I have not time to quote all these extracts to your Lordships. All I wish to do is to appeal to the Government, and especially the noble Lord, Lord Chatfield, to consider most carefully the points which have been raised, and not to dismiss them as merely uninformed criticism.
Now I come to my last point. There is one thing which I believe puzzles and mystifies every man and woman in this country. It is this. Why do the Government allow huge quantities of scrap metal to be exported to the Axis countries which may or may not, at some future date, descend upon us in the form of shells, bombs and other missiles? Last year, exports of scrap iron and steel from the United Kingdom to Germany, I understand, leapt from 4,500 metric tons

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in July to nearly 17,000 metric tons in August. The figure for September was 21,000, and it reached its peak in December, when 23,000 tons were exported. May I suggest that it would have been far better and wiser if all this scrap material had remained in this country, as a reserve supply in case of emergency, and that it was really the height of folly to have allowed it to go abroad?
The same is true, unfortunately, in greater or less degree, of many other minerals and commodities, such as pig iron, copper, lead, nickel, manganese and chromite, to mention only a few. For instance, the export of pig iron from the United Kingdom to Germany jumped from 305 metric tons in October last to nearly 10,000 in November, and reached its highest point of nearly 12,000 tons in January. France is an even worse offender. In August she exported to Germany 350 metric tons of pig iron, and in September this figure had leapt to 19,000. It reached a peak of 75,000 tons in November, and continued at a high level until March, when it stood at 67,000 tons. I. may say that these figures are taken from a German publication of the highest repute. Surely some arrangement can and ought to be reached with the Governments of the Dominions, France, and possibly the United States, to restrict in some way the export of these commodities, which add to the whole problem of armaments, and which in the event of war would probably be used against us.
There is one other matter, and that is the case of British ships which have recently been sold, I understand, to foreign Powers. The Government, I understand, have promised legislation to prevent these transfers in future. May I respectfully ask the noble Lord opposite how long we shall have to wait before the proposed legislation becomes effective? If the Parliamentary machine is so clogged up with business, surely it is high time to overhaul it, in order that urgent measures of this kind may be passed without delay, for we cannot afford to lose any time. Therefore I would beg leave to urge the Government to expedite and extend its programme, and to take whatever steps are necessary not only to ensure the safety of our country, but also to enable it to play its appropriate part in any collective system or peace front of which it is a member. I beg to move for Papers.
6.8 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friends have asked me to say a few words on this important Motion. I think your Lordships who have stayed to listen to the noble Lord will agree that he has raised very important matters, and for myself I think he has brought up points of some moment. In the very few minutes that I propose to detain your Lordships, I would like to support one or two of his arguments. I have just been over to Belgium. There I made some inquiries. I was glad to see that the Belgians were in very good heart. The country is very well prepared. Her technical people are mobilised, and the ordinary classes of the Army. I am told that all the vital points in Belgium, such as those which have been referred to, are guarded and adequately guarded, and that in case of sudden attack the charges are already placed where structures have to be destroyed. It must be remembered that in Belgium they are only a few miles away from certain of the greatest Army concentrations in Germany. They have therefore to be ready for instant action. I am told also that in Holland there is very much the same state of preparedness, and that all the dykes and bridges of any importance are already mined and guarded. The Dutch are much more confident than they were and say that now they could hold up any attack for a considerable time. I am told the same thing is true of Switzerland also. They are absolutely ready to blow up tunnels and bridges to hold up an advance.
With regard to France, I have also been in that country since I last had the pleasure of seeing noble Lords opposite, and I made some inquiries about the question of metal going to Germany from France. I ventured once before to raise this question of what I call the pig iron scandal. I do not blame the noble and gallant Lord opposite. I know who was responsible. It was the Treasury, who said there was no precedent for buying surplus pig iron. The iron trade begged the Government to buy and store it, but the Treasury would not sanction it, and so it went to Germany. The French say that if they stopped this metal trade it would create unemployment. I should have thought that that was a case for economic co-ordination, if I may use the word, with our French friends. Between us we could make a pool of metals, so as

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to prevent unemployment in France and at the same time accumulate a lot of this metal that will be required in this country in case of war. There is now a shortage of steel, as the noble and gallant Lord knows, and we are having to import scrap to make into steel. That metal situation does not make sense at all. But I know that the Government are now alive to it, and I only just mention it in passing.
I, like the noble Lord, Lord Davies, realise that one has to tread rather carefully in dealing with these matters, and we certainly do not expect the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Chatfield, to say anything which will give away information that would be of value to a possible opponent. I certainly do not intend to say anything that may have come to my notice that is not common knowledge, or that could not be obtained quite easily in any case. If I might give an opinion, our most vital need at the present time, and the most dangerous point in our whole defences, is our merchant shipping. I am thinking of the undeclared act of war, the bolt from the blue that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, spoke about. We must obviously have our merchant shipping scattered, doing its ordinary work of carrying our trade. It is most difficult to devise a means of defending it against the combination of the utterly unscrupulous act of war without the ordinary formalities, which seems to be the fashion nowadays, on the one hand, and the new weapons of aircraft and the long distance cruising submarines, and so on, on the other. It is quite obvious that the problem is complex and difficult, and I have been assured that the Government have that in hand, but I cannot lose this opportunity of again drawing attention to it.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, spoke of the way we disarmed, or allowed our armaments to fall away, in certain years before the crisis with Italy in 1935. It is the fashion to hold the Labour Party responsible for that—I have never quite understood why. We held office for a very short time during the period that has elapsed since the end of the last War, and why we should be blamed I do not know. I know that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Chatfield, himself does not speak, and never has spoken, in your Lordships'
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House as a Party politician, but in case he attempts to make that old score, I would like him to compare our strategical position to-day with what it was in 1931, when the Labour Party was jockeyed out of office. Compare our relative military and naval position and our strategical position generally with what it was then. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, I am sure, would like to make that comparison. He was not responsible for any sort of Government at that time, and therefore he can look at the matter with a completely judicial mind.
I think the noble Lord, Lord Davies, rather underestimates the tremendous output of munitions which is now taking place. It is terrific, especially with regard to naval armaments, and I congratulate the Government on their long-term naval programme, which is formidable, and also on their aircraft production. The aircraft, we know, are now coming along at a tremendous rate. There is this point to be remembered also, that the fact that our programme has been somewhat delayed, perhaps dangerously delayed, has at least this advantage, that our equipment which is coming along now is much more modern than that of our possible opponents. They are cluttered up with a lot of obsolescent material, on which the immense sums mentioned by Lord Davies were spent in the years that are past. That is an advantage that cannot be overlooked. But I must say that I think the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is justified in drawing attention to the lack of Army equipment. That really is scandalous. I know it is coming along, but it is common knowledge—you cannot keep it from 200,000 men whom you have called up under the Military Training Act, and from all your Territorials now going to camp—that there is a woeful lack of equipment for the infantry. That seems to me the weakest point there.
I do not want to anticipate the discussion on the Ministry of Supply Bill which after many many months will reach your Lordships' House, but I must say I think the noble Lord, Lord Davies, was justified in his complaint about military equipment. Nor do I wish to anticipate the discussion on the Civil Defence Bill, which, after many, many months of discussion and delay, has eventually reached your Lordships' House; but I must say that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that the anti-air-raid precautions

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are not proceeding fast enough. I believe we are ahead of other countries. I have reason to suppose that we are well ahead in civil defence of certain other very important countries on the Continent, but there are tremendous gaps still in the equipment needed for civil defence and in the organisation of civil defence. I know the answer will be that so much of this depends on the people themselves, on the local authorities, and so on. But there is more needed than that. There is a lack of drive at the centre in the preparations for civil defence in this country, and there is tremendous congestion in the hastily formed organisations that are trying to deal with it. Correspondence is held up, decisions are held up, and the complaints among the unfortunate people in business who are trying to deal with these matters are bitter and sustained. If I had the ear of the Prime Minister at any time, and it was my business to do so, I would beg him to look into that matter.
So much for the question of equipment. I think there is another weakness, and perhaps the greatest weakness of all; it is perhaps inevitable, but it can be dealt with. Our weakness in the general scheme of defence—I am talking now of grand strategy—is lack of co-ordination with our potential allies in the countries we guarantee. In this matter I exempt the case of France. We all know that there have been, and still are, very important Staff talks going on with the French, and there presumably will be Staff talks—or perhaps they have already taken place—with Poland, Greece, Turkey and Rumania, all countries who are guaranteed in one form or another, and there must surely be some co-ordination in case of a war in which they and ourselves are involved. There the two Axis Powers, Germany and Italy, have an advantage. They have been working closely together, for example in Spain, for the last two and a half years. They are used to working together and co-ordinating their efforts, and it is common knowledge now that the Germans are very well represented in all the Italian Defence Ministries—to the great annoyance of the more patriotic Italians, who feel that the Germans have far too much influence in their country. But, be that as it may, there is a very close welding together of all the forces of Germany and Italy for any kind of war in which they may become
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engaged. That is common knowledge. It is announced and boasted about, especially by the German leaders. The Italians do not talk so much about it now. Some of them say Mussolini was a very fine Dictator, and they much prefer him to their present leader.
But on the Staff side undoubtedly there has been great progress made in Italy and Germany, and the Minister for the Co-Ordination of Defence would never stand at that box and pretend that we had made anything like the same progress with the people with whom we may have to co-operate in the event of a great war breaking out. He could not say that because everyone knows it is not the case. That matter ought to be taken in hand now. And of course that also applies to Russia—very much to Russia. I am going to suggest to your Lordships it might have been better, looking backwards, if the Staff talks with Russia, which must take place in any case if we proceed with the proposed mutual guarantee, had preceded the political negotiations. I made that suggestion in your Lordships' House some time ago, and the noble Lord, Lord Chatfield, told us these Staff conversations had not taken place. If these Staff consultations with Russia had taken place before the political negotiations, we should have seen what difficulties stood in the way of the political negotiations. I throw that out now as a suggestion.
In that connection, may I make another suggestion which I made publicly before? It is this. We should use our Navy rather more as ambassadors. For example, I should very much like to see a squadron of some of our most modern ships in the Baltic during the coming summer months, visiting not only Russian ports but the Baltic ports generally. I would send them to German ports as well. Perhaps that has been arranged. Why not? Our naval officers and bluejackets are very good diplomats. They get on very well in these foreign ports, and they do a great deal of good. If you arranged a naval visit to the Russian ports the officers of the two Fleets would get to know one another, and would have an opportunity of making arrangements to work together in any necessity.
Finally, if I am not detaining your Lordships too long, I would again stress the importance of the noble Lord's Motion in view of events which are at present happening in Asia. I believe my noble

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friend Lord Snell intends to ask whether it will be convenient to put a Question on this subject on Tuesday, and I do not want to enter into the politics of it; but what is happening in Asia to-day reinforces once more the lack of co-operation with our potential allies in case of trouble. In this connection I should respectfully like to congratulate His Majesty's Government and the French Government on the Staff conversations taking place, I understand, in the East Indies. According to the newspapers—and I hope it is true—an important French Naval and Military Mission is visiting Singapore, and we are sending senior officers of the Services to French Indo-China as well. I am delighted to see that, and I hope the practice will be extended to other parts of the world where we can help one another in case of trouble.
I have never concealed the opinion I have held for many years, from my political friends or anyone else, that a far greater danger to the peace of the world exists in Asia than in Europe. That is still my considered opinion, and I am very glad we are taking steps, perhaps a little tardily, to co-ordinate our defence with our French friends in the Far East. There are other nations I could mention, but I will not do so on this occasion, because it would be most inadvisable to discuss such conversations as might take place. If I might summarise the view I know is held by my political friends in my party, it is that, while we have now a tremendous efflux of equipment and munitions of all kinds, there is still lacking the organisation of the grand strategy for the defence that may be required if the peace of the world is unhappily broken.
6.26 p.m.
THE MINISTER FOR THE CO-ORDINATION OF DEFENCE (LORD CHATFIELD): My Lords, the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, which has been so usefully added to by the noble Lord opposite, has convinced me, if I needed convincing, of the enormous range of duties that fall under me as Minister of Co-ordination. Perhaps a generous interpretation of the terms of the Motion has been used by the noble Lord who brought it forward, but of that I have no complaint to make at all. On the contrary, where anxiety exists,
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it is much better that it should be expressed in your Lordships' House and that those who are responsible should take such opportunity as offers to reassure where reassurance is needed.
I do not propose to traverse the very many subjects that have been raised this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, has given us a considerable dissertation on the history of the lack of armaments, the commencement of rearmament, and of rearmament in full swing—if he admits at all it is in full swing. I have found it best myself, in taking on my present duty, to give up soliloquising over the past and to confine myself rather to pursuing the present. I certainly had not got in my mind any idea of making any accusations against the Party that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Strabolgi) represents in the way he suggested, but it is astonishing how, when suggestions and hints are dropped, one's mind inevitably moves in a direction it had no intention of taking before. At any rate, I think I may say, in so far as the Navy is unready owing to the lack of the renewal of its important and vital Battle Fleet, the noble Lord must take a little responsibility for the fact that in the 1931 London Treaty the Government of which, I believe, he was a supporter deliberately agreed that the replacement of our Battle Fleet should be deferred for five years. As a result we were unable to build a single battleship until December, 1936, or January, 1937.
LORD STRABOLGI: You built the "Rodney" and the "Nelson."
LORD CHATFIELD: That was before. Battleships which had to be replaced, schedule by schedule, under the Washington Treaty were cancelled. Building was deferred for five years, and during those five years the country, I cannot help thinking, ran a risk we ought never to have run. I do not want to pursue that point or to be controversial. It was only because the noble Lord put these thoughts into my mind.
LORD STRABOLGI: Might I remind the noble Lord that there was not a Labour Government at the time of the Washington Conference, but the Washington Treaty was on the whole a good thing?
LORD CHATFIELD: Yes, but the important thing to remember is that in 1922

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the Naval Conference, in which I personally took a part, laid it down that the Battle Fleet of all the signatory Powers should start replacement in 1931—that was the agreement—ten years after the Conference, and we decided each year how many ships should be laid down by each Power, so that by this time if that Treaty had been carried out, we should have nine or ten brand new ships instead of having them on the stocks. But in 1931 the London Naval Conference took place when the Party to which the noble Lord belongs was in power, and that Treaty was cancelled in that respect. The rebuilding of our Battle Fleet was deferred by agreement for another five years. I do not think I need deal with the question of the defence of shipping, for the noble Lord will not expect me to deal with that. I did deal with it to some extent when I was speaking in this House some months ago.
Similarly I do not think he will expect me to deal with pig iron or with civil defence, which is to come before your Lordships' House soon, and the Bill in regard to which I am afraid I shall have the responsibility of having to ask your Lordships to pass as quickly as possible so as to ensure that there will be no further delay in the Legislative Assemblies. I have also been asked to consider whether our legislative procedure should not be overhauled. That is a little outside the terms of the Motion, and perhaps I may be excused from dealing with that also. I would just refer to the important point raised by the noble Lord opposite about Staff conversations with our allies. He can be quite sure that I am fully cognisant of the very great importance of conversations of that type, and he can rest assured that those conversations will be carried out, are being carried out, and will be completed. When he says that we are behind in our conversations of this kind as compared with other nations with whom we are not allied, I would remind him of the fact that many of our responsibilities have only recently been entered into and that has naturally prevented us from making arrangements of that sort so early as those rations to whom he referred.
Now, if I may, I will come to the Motion itself. It is really divided into two parts. There first of all the question of the armaments necessary for
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national defence, and in regard to that very great stress was laid by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on the question of home defence. The second question that he asks is as to whether we are really taking any steps at all such as we should be taking to meet the guarantee that we have given to certain countries. I think I will deal initially with his first point, the question of home defence. I am sure that your Lordships will realise, as indeed the noble Lord, Lord Davies, himself has pointed out, that I am in some difficulty in dealing with defence questions, because they must to some extent deal with dispositions for war, and I have to be very careful not to say anything that would be of value as information to any potential enemy Power. Otherwise, I am only too anxious to give such information as I can not only so that your Lordships may be able to judge for yourselves, but also, I trust, to satisfy you that every reasonable precaution that can be taken is being taken.
Lord Davies has asked to be assured that adequate protection is being created both to deal with air attacks and against sabotage in vital parts of this country. I think it is necessary, in order to explain what has been done, to give a very general but brief picture of the arrangements for home defence. It is so difficult for what I may call the local man to understand that he is being protected, whether it is in the air or on the sea, by far-flung forces. Local defence is always the thing that sticks most in the mind of the man in any particular locality, whether he is in Fiji, or, shall I say, in the Welsh mountains. We all know and we all have that natural feeling of anxiety about the spot where we ourselves happen to be. But the noble Lord has in mind a much bigger principle than merely any particular point.
So far as the active defences of this country against air attack are concerned, let me point out that in the first place, we have got numerous squadrons of fighter aircraft, ever increasing in number, so disposed as to be able to intercept the enemy at the earliest possible moment, which is the vital thing to do. Secondly, we have our high altitude guns, so disposed as to protect all important areas. Thirdly, there is an enormous number of searchlights so disposed as to ensure that enemy aircraft will be continuously

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illuminated, and to ensure that the fighter aircraft and the high altitude guns will operate effectively by night. Fourthly, we have balloon barrages at important vulnerable areas, in order to make the risk of low flying very much greater than it would otherwise be. Fifthly, there are light anti-aircraft guns, which are capable of a tremendous rate of fire, and are designed specifically to deal with this menace of low-flying aircraft which, if allowed to fly low, would drop bombs with accuracy instead of scattering them promiscuously from a height of 10,000 or 15,000 or 20,000 feet. Sixthly, there is the intelligence system, which includes, of course, the Observer Corps, which will enable hostile aircraft to be located and tracked wherever they go. That is the broad background.
Now let me try to explain the general principles which have guided the Committee of Imperial Defence and His Majesty's Government in deciding on the points to which special protection should be given, either against air attack or against sabotage. There are, of course, thousands of points in this crowded country, with its innumerable industries, which are of importance for the continuance of war or the maintenance of life of the community. There are, for instance, our power stations, our gas works, our water supplies, our railway systems, our docks, our oil supplies and factories of every kind, and so forth. It would obviously be strategically impracticable and wrong to use both our man power and our material resources to attempt to provide specific protection for each and all of these points, over and above the very substantial protection that is provided by the general defence system of the country to which I have just referred. Indeed it would be an unjustifiable dispersal of force. I understand that the noble Lord considers that we should have the whole of these thousands of points protected now in peace time. Your Lordships will remember that only the other day the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, initiated a debate, to which I had to reply, in which he endeavoured to use all the emphasis he had to induce the Government not to concentrate too much on the defensive, but to try to think of offensive action as a far more valuable means of
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saving ourselves from trouble and disaster. For the reasons I have given it has been necessary for the Committee of Imperial Defence to discriminate in these cases so far as specific protection against air attack is concerned.
The whole country has been reconnoitred by specialist officers during the last few years and the result of the reconnaissance has been completely reviewed by the Committee of Imperial Defence. It is always very difficult for the non-technical mind to understand the technical situation of to-day. So often we are told—I was told myself when I was Chief of the Staff—that Chiefs of Staff are always thinking of the last War. I think the only people really who can think intelligently—using that word in a Staff sense—on present dangers are those who are possessed of full technical knowledge. The noble Lord who moved the Motion this afternoon spoke about the experiences of the last War as indicating the perfectly clear course which is open, and obviously open, to His Majesty's Government as regards the setting up of a Ministry of Supply on the full scale of the old Ministry of Munitions. But we must understand that, whether the Government are right or wrong, these decisions that they are making are not political decisions but are decisions made on the advice of the best officers there are in the Service at the present time, and I think myself that the officers in the Service available to advise His Majesty's Government at the present time are certainly in every respect as competent to advise them as those who advised His Majesty's Government in the last War. The Government are bound to take their advice, and are taking their advice and are acting on it.
I will indicate the general principles which have to guide the Committee of Imperial Defence in determining whether specific protection should or should not be provided for any particular point and, if so, the extent to which it should be provided. In the first place you have to consider the geographical position of the point in question. Obviously there are places, say, in the north or the west, which are less attractive targets for the enemy, if there is one, than other places in the east or the south. Secondly, the relative importance of the point has to be considered—whether, for instance, if it

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was damaged it would cause a serious loss to the nation in conducting the war, or whether it is only one where damage would be regrettable and should be prevented, if possible, but would not appreciably affect the conduct of the war or the maintenance of the national life. Another factor, of course, is the size of the target, its visibility from the air and its vulnerability to attack. These are the kind of principles which have guided the Committee of Imperial Defence when making our initial dispositions, and they are kept under constant review. If war experience showed that we had erred—as no doubt we may err, or shall err—we can redistribute our forces, because in the first place the light anti-aircraft guns are mobile and can be moved at will; and secondly, there is a mobile reserve of guns of all types which can be moved to any particular types of target on which it may appear that an undue effort of the enemy is being concentrated.
Now let me turn to the question of protection against sabotage. Obviously the provision of such protection is simpler than that against air attack since it does not involve elaborate equipment. Nevertheless it would not be justifiable to attempt to provide 100 per cent. protection for each and every point which might conceivably be imagined as a possible objective of sabotage. Without in any way wishing to minimise the danger, I think it would be fair to say that the difficulties of the saboteur are often very much underrated. I may perhaps remind your Lordships' House that during the last War no attempt was made by the enemy to damage vulnerable points in this country. This immunity was due, perhaps, to the measures concerted before the War to provide protection for the most important points and for dealing with enemy agents. I would, however, emphasize that nothing is being left to chance.
The whole question of protection against sabotage has been under constant examination and review by the Committee of Imperial Defence for the past fifteen years, and arrangements have been made to provide appropriate protection for literally thousands of vulnerable points. As your Lordships will be aware, there is a special body, called the National Defence Companies, which exists for this very purpose. Their numbers have lately been very substantially increased and are now to be reckoned, not
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in terms of hundreds, but in terms of many thousands of men. May I give your Lordships my personal assurance that I have been into the whole matter of protection of important places against both air attack of every kind and against sabotage in any form, and I shall continue to do so? I have found, for example, that certain localities, which have formed the subject of correspondence between the noble Lord who moved the Motion and myself during the last month or so, have not been overlooked, and were in fact considered in great detail by the Committee of Imperial Defence some years ago. I can, in fact, give your Lordships the assurance that in so far as I am a competent judge every reasonable precaution that can be taken is being taken. I do not wish to set up ourselves as infallible, but we have these things continually under review. All the suggestions made by the two noble Lords who have spoken on that particular point will, I assure your Lordships, receive consideration and I will bear them in mind.
Now I come to the last part of the noble Lord's Motion, and that is what steps we are taking to deal with our new responsibilities. I am afraid the noble Lord gave your Lordships' House a somewhat depressing and gloomy picture of the great national effort that is being put forward at the present time. I think that a great deal of what he said has been already dealt with in innumerable debates during the last few years. Moreover, we have issued White Papers. I might remind your Lordships that in February last there was published a White Paper which dealt with the whole of these subjects. I hope the noble Lord will read that White Paper again, and make quite sure that he cannot get some consolation, however small, from what was the position up to last February. But I should like to say to your Lordships that since that time—during the four months when I myself have been in my present position—the progress made has been, in my opinion, at a highly reassuring and ever increasing rate.
Of course we have taken on new responsibilities which have necessitated our recasting our programme. We have had to set up new hypotheses as to the strength of our forces, and that has been done by doubling the Territorial Army, by the introduction of the Military Training Bill, and the setting up of a Minister

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with partial duties as Minister of Army Supply. All these steps are of great magnitude and importance. You may say that we might have foreseen these commitments a year or two ago: that we were going to guarantee Poland, Rumania and Greece, that Czecho-Slovakia would be invaded and so on, and that we ought to have done these things a long while ago. I am afraid we were unable to foresee events so clearly; it would have been an advantage if we had been able to do so. I know that the noble Lord opposite will appreciate that it would not be desirable for me to make public details of the extent to which that programme has been completed. But I should like to point out that during the last two months no less than thirty new factories have been started and are in course of construction, and another thirty factories of all kinds are approved and in the stage of preparation. Then there have been considerable extensions and modifications of various kinds to the existing works, and fresh capacity is daily being achieved by giving what are called "educational orders" to existing firms which can be called in if necessary to help in that programme.
Then I come to the fact that we have set up this Ministry of Army Supply. I do not wish to deal with that at the present time, and I am sure that both the noble Lords who mentioned it will not wish me to do so, because I shall be speaking on that matter later. We shall be having a debate on that Bill when it comes before your Lordships—I hope not, as the noble Lord said, in months' time, for I am sure the other House will pass it through as quickly as possible and we shall get it much sooner than he anticipates. But I agree that the Ministry of Supply, when it is set up with its limited powers, will meet a need. I told your Lordships, I may respectfully point out, in answering the Motion of the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that there are always occasions which produce a need, and that one of those occasions would be if we were enormously to increase any of our forces; that it might then be necessary and better to set up such a Ministry than to swallow the disadvantages, the disturbances and the delay which are so apt to happen in the transitional period when we engage in an enormous programme and vast staffs
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have to be transferred from one Minister to another. But we are taking every step we can to ensure that no delay occurs in that way—no undue delay, at least—and I believe that the creation of this Ministry, giving a man a special task and special powers in order to deal with this problem which we have suddenly taken on, will cause a very considerable increase in the rapidity with which the equipment of the new Army will be carried out. In addition there is the fact that the Minister is going to be responsible for the accumulation of raw materials which up to the present have been divided between the different Departments. That will no doubt have advantages as well.
There is also the provision of articles of common user, which again will help: the demands for uniform, for instance, and that sort of thing. The Government have been very fortunate, I should like to mention, in enlisting to deal with this work the services of the expert Sir Frederick Marquis, whom I believe we shall soon welcome as a member of your Lordships' House. We have had some reference to shipbuilding, and I should like to mention that the assistance which has recently been afforded to the shipbuilding industry has, I consider, had the effect of very greatly improving the conditions in that industry, which was badly needed. This should have a beneficial influence on progress and construction, and on the maintenance of our shipbuilding labour generally. Another step that we have taken is to set up a Sub-Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence to deal with the scientific and optical instrument industry, under the chairmanship of Sir Frank Smith. Although this is actually a long-range Sub-Committee, they will be making interim reports and recommendations, which I am quite certain will be of great value in expediting the present programme in that very important direction.
The last important point that I would mention is on this very difficult question of supplies to other countries. We have in this country at the present time, as your Lordships may know, distinguished representatives of other countries to whom we have given certain assurances and who are anxious to equip their forces in various ways. It is exceedingly difficult to gauge which is the best way to use your productive capacity: is it better to use it to equip your own Army or to

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equip the Army of a friend? That is a strategic problem, the question of how we are going to use to the best advantage the enormous productive capacity that we have in this country and which we are increasing at such a tremendous rate, but the Committee of Imperial Defence are already dealing with that. We are having our discussions with our friends, and I am sure we shall find what is the best solution for the common good.
I think I have dealt as fully as I can with the Motion of the noble Lord. I should like to say in conclusion that I believe there has never been a time when the plans for war have been so carefully laid or given so muck thought. We are well on our way to achieve our aim of being more ready for war in peace than we have ever been. By the energy and devotion of our scientific staffs, we have harnessed science in such a manner that the risks and anxieties of ten or twenty years ago are in many respects no longer of the same degree. In many instances the defence is rapidly catching up the attack. We have the men we need, and of a higher average physique and intelligence than ever before in our history. This human factor is the main asset we shall rely on with confidence in the future, as we have so successfully in the past. If ever we are to be tested, that is the factor that will decide our future.
6.59 p.m.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, should like to thank the noble Lord who has just sat down for his very exhaustive and very clear speech, and also for the reassuring statement which he has given your Lordships as to the general defence arrangements of the country. I am sure we are all very grateful to him for having dealt with all the points which my noble friend and I have endeavoured to bring forward. There is just one point that I would like to mention before I sit down. I think perhaps the noble Lord did not quite do me justice when he suggested that I was approaching the points which I raised in correspondence from a local point of view. I assure the noble Lord that that is not so. I was really concerned about the water supplies; of two of the biggest cities in this country, which happen to be in the locality where I live. I am sure he realises that, and that I have no local interest in the question that has been raised. Then he told us
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that he was not in a position to answer the question about iron ore. That I can understand, but I hope he will be good enough to convey my views to the proper quarter. He also said that he had no responsibility for the legislative speed with which the Government worked. There again I do not quarrel with him, but I am sure he will agree that he has a certain measure of what used to be called Cabinet responsibility, and the Cabinet as a whole are responsible, I venture to think, for pushing through the measures which they regard as of vital importance.
LORD CHATFIELD: The noble Lord is under a misapprehension. I did not say I had no responsibility for improving our legislative machine, but that I did not feel, as Minister for Co-ordination, that he would expect me to respond to the invitation that we should do so.
LORD DAVIES: Of course I accept that interpretation, and I shall be glad if the noble Lord will be good enough also to convey to the proper quarters the suggestion which I have ventured to make. We understand now what is to be done in the case of sabotage and of possible air raids, or by an armed force being dumped down in a particular place in order to do damage in a very short time. I am sure we should be reassured if what I think the noble Lord described as a National Defence Corps can be mobilised for that purpose. I am sure your Lordships do not wish me to detain you any longer. I am only sorry that the House is so thin, and that there were not a larger number of noble Lords present to listen to the speech which has fallen from the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (ADAPTATION OF ACTS OF PARLIAMENT) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1939.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Order be made in the form of the draft approved by the House on Tuesday last.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Address to be presented to His Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

  DUMFRIESSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL WATER SCHEMES.
  DUMFRIESSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL WATER SCHEMES.
  CEYLON CONSTITUTION.
  CEYLON CONSTITUTION.

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Hailsham Water),
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Luton Water).
Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (South Kent Water).
The same were Ordered to lie on the Table.

SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
The King's Consent signified; and Bill reported, without Amendment.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
  BARMOUTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported, without amendment.
SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL. SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL. MACCLESFIELD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
COLNE VALLEY WATER BILL.
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition of the Bill was withdrawn. The Orders made on the 25th of May last and Thursday last discharged, and Bill committed.

WHITEHAVEN GAS ORDER, 1939.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Whit ehaven United Gas Company Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

MILITARY TRAINING AND RESERVE AND AUXILIARY FORCES (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS) (INSURANCE) DRAFT ORDER, 1939.
In substitution for the Draft Order laid before the House yesterday:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee on Monday next.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NORTH LINDSEY WATER BOARD) BILL. [H.L.] MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WEMBLEY) BILL. [H.L.] MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (BACUP) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.