Sitting of 3 August 1939

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

COLONIAL STOCK ACTS, 1877 To 1934.
Copy ordered,
"of Treasury List of Stocks in respect of which the provisions of the Colonial Stock Act, 1900, are for the time being complied with." —[Captain Crookshank.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFFICE.
  Mr. James Hallasked the Minister of Labour what countries are now giving effect to the Public Works (International Co-operation) Recommendation adopted by the International Labour Conference in 1937?
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): At the April Session of the Governing Body of the International Labour Office, the director made the following statement on the position:
  "So far the following Governments have informed the Office that they will give effect to this Recommendation by furnishing the necessary information and by taking part in the meetings of the International Public Works Committee: Colombia, Estonia, Great Britain, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, Union of South Africa."
  I understand that since that date favourable replies have also been received from Belgium, Bulgaria, Poland and the United States of America.
  Mr. Hall: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the British Government will be prepared to ratify the convention?
  Mr. Brown: I have already said that we have informed the Office that we will give effect to the Recommendation by furnishing the necessary information. No question of ratification arises at this stage.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    WESTERN ISLES.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that conditions in the Western Isles are anomalous with regard to the working of the unemployment insurance system, he can now state when he intends to introduce special legislation covering especially the inequitable treatment of seasonal men and women workers?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am not aware that the Seasonal Workers' Regulations, which were reviewed and amended in 1935, operate inequitably, and do not contemplate special legislation of the kind suggested.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the statement made some time ago that the conditions in the Western Isles were entirely different from the conditions anywhere else, and does he not think that we are justified in asking for special legislation to be introduced to prevent the unemployment insurance scheme working inequitably?
    Mr. Brown: It is for that reason that I proposed the question to the Statutory Committee more than two years ago, and as a result, with the concurrence of the House, introduced amended regulations for that purpose.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the regulations are working badly and that is the reason why we want special legislation?
    Mr. Brown: I do not think they have worked badly. I think they have been most effective for the purpose for which they were passed by the Labour Government in 1931.

    GOVERNMENT CONTRACT WORK.
    Mr. Wedgwood Bennasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that 67 men will be required to leave the Dukinfield works for York on 14th August; and whether he has consulted with other Departments with a view to the provision of Government contract work to make it possible to retain men at these works?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am informed that the railway company are offering employment to as many as possible of the workpeople

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    employed at the Dukinfield Works. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to his Supplementary Question on 20th July. I am, however, in close touch with other Departments on the utilisation of the facilities available at Dukinfield.
    Mr. Benn: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for having received a deputation, is he aware that these men are being brought in and that in many cases it is quite impossible for them to uproot their homes and move?
    Mr. Brown: I am aware of that, and that is the reason why I received the deputation. We have been in contact with the Department concerned to see whether these facilities can be used.
    Mr. Tinker: Do consultations take place between his Department and other interests when a change of works takes place?
    Mr. Brown: I have no responsibility for that.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Minister of Labour whether he is taking any steps to operate the suggestion in the last report of the Unemployment Assistance Board that a Clause should be inserted in rearmament contracts to provide that the employment thereon should include a proportion of persons who have been for a considerable time out of work?
    Mr. Brown: The suggestion tentatively made by the Unemployment Assistance Board was that a Clause might be inserted in certain contracts requiring the contractor to engage the greater part of his men through the Employment Exchange. As to this, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies I gave to the hon. Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) on 15th June. I should add that in submitting applicants for vacancies the exchanges must necessarily endeavour to meet the requirements of the particular employer.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of having a periodical analysis made of applicants for benefit in order that where practicable preference shall be given to those applicants who have been standing off for a long time?
    Mr. Brown: There is no need for that; we do it regularly. It is simply a matter of public policy, as to whether or not we can arrange with the contractor concerned to get a certain proportion of this labour through the Employment Exchanges.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: This is a very old question. Is it not possible for the Government, where they are handing a job to a contractor, to insert a clause in the contract that the contractor must employ people nearby and who are available for the job, and thereby prevent a contractor actually advertising in Ireland for Irish labourers?
    Mr. Brown: That particular point is covered in the answer to which I have referred. We are having successful negotiations with the Building Joint Council, employers and employed, and we are now in the final stage of trying to fix up a definite arrangement. I can assure hon. Members that this is a matter about which I feel keenly.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that under the Unemployment Grants Committee the proposal did work, and no grant was given unless the contractor accepted this kind of contract? As it has worked successfully for many years, why should not the right hon. Gentleman accept it now?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member will understand that the issues are not quite the same and I do not accept the comparison. I want the House to understand that I myself am very keen about this matter.

    CARMARTHENSHIRE.
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour whether he has given consideration to the representations made to him by the Carmarthenshire County Council in reference to the depressed industrial conditions in certain areas in the county; and what steps he proposes to take to assist those areas?
    Mr. E. Brown: Yes, Sir. I am writing to the hon. Member about the specific suggestions made by the deputation which was received on my behalf. As regards the general question of attracting new industrial undertakings to the county I would refer the hon. Member to the Loans Facilities Bill which has just been introduced.
    Mr. Griffiths: Will the right hon. Gentleman in the Recess be prepared to receive a deputation from this authority and other authorities to discuss this matter? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the provisions have proved to be totally inadequate for these areas?
    Mr. Brown: I should be sorry to think that; but I am always prepared to receive a deputation on important issues.
    Mr. Griffiths: I gather that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to receive a deputation?
    Mr. Brown: Perhaps the hon. Member will discuss the matter to me.

    BRICKMAKING INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Denvilleasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of a serious threat to an old-established important local industry on the North-East Coast, whereby a sound economical and durable product giving work to thousands of people in the brick industry is menaced by organised competition of a commodity from another area; and what steps he is taking to prevent an increase of unemployment in this already distressed area?
    Mr. E. Brown:I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Mr. A. Edwards) on 9th March.
    Mr. Denville: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the brickyards on the coast of Durham are having to close down through the incursion of these large combines from the south?

    WIGAN AREA.
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the inquest on Mr. S. Robinson, age 36, of Castle Hill, Hindley, Wigan, who committed suicide after being unemployed for seven years continuously, at which the coroner expressed surprise that a man should have been out of work for so long a period, although this is quite common in Hindley; and will he take steps to induce the Lancashire Industrial Development Company to start new industries in this township, and thereby assist to obviate this state of things?
    Mr. E. Brown:The Government does not accept responsibility for the management of the Lancashire Industrial Sites
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    Company, Limited, but I can assure the hon. Member that the company is aware of the desirability of attracting new industrial undertakings which will provide employment for persons resident in Hindley. I propose to take the opportunity of reminding the company of the situation in the area. As the hon. Member is aware, everything possible has been done to draw the attention of the Defence Departments, and of firms wishing to establish new industries, to the opportunities afforded by this area, and my Department will continue to do this.
    Mr. Davies: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this coroner, who lives about 20 miles from Hindley, was astonished that a person should have been unemployed for seven years. Is he not aware that there are hundreds if not thousands of these cases in the Wigan coal area?
    Mr. Brown: I am well aware of that, and that is why we have made continuous efforts in the matter and shall continue to do so.
    Sir Joseph Nall:May I ask why no effort is made to employ these miners at Chorley?
    Mr. Brown:I gave an answer some time ago which showed that some of them have found employment there.

    ASSISTANCE.
    .Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Labour whether it is the practice of area officers of the Unemployment Assistance Board to deduct rent from allowances paid to persons who are participating in rent strikes; and whether instructions will be issued forbidding the intervention of the Board's officers in disputes between tenants and landlords?
    Mr. E. Brown:It is not the Board's practice to intervene in disputes of this kind, but in determining the amount of the allowance in any case the Board are bound under the Regulations to have regard to the question whether any, and, if so, how much, rent is in fact being paid. If the hon. Member has any particular case in mind and will let me have the details, I will have inquiry made.
    Mr. Gallacher:Is the Minister aware that I have seen a letter from an official suggesting that such action will be taken.

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    and if I show him the evidence, will he take steps to stop this practice?
    Mr. Brown: I should like to see that letter.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in the event of these unemployed men being compelled to pay the rent at some time in the future, the Unemployment Assistance Board will make allowances to meet such payments?
    Mr. Brown: That is a hypothetical question.
    Mr. Gallacher: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. R. H. Geisler, 83, Studley Grange Road, London, W 7, was fined at Hanley Police Court for keeping his daughter away from school although he had informed the school authorities that the reason for the girl's absence was lack of footwear, and that his inability to provide footwear was due to the fact that he was unaware of his right to supplementary benefit from the Unemployment Assistance Board in view of his large family; and whether, in view of such cases, he will consider the necessity of displaying posters at all Employment Exchanges advising applicants of their rights to draw supplementary benefit from the Unemployment Assistance Board under certain circumstances?
    Mr. Brown: The terms of the poster relating to unemployment assistance have been reconsidered, and a revised poster making specific reference to the position of persons in receipt of unemployment insurance benefit is now being printed and will be issued in a few days to all local offices of the Ministry. As regards the case mentioned I am informed by the Board that an allowance in supplementation of unemployment insurance benefit was granted as long ago as 18th May last.
    Mr. Gordon Macdonaldasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in receipt of unemployment assistance in the administrative county of Lancaster, and of the 17 associated county boroughs on the latest date for which figures are available?
    Mr. Brown: As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    Table showing the numbers of payments of unemployment assistance allowances (exclusive of allowances in supplementation of insurance benefit) made through Employment Exchanges in the administrative county of Lancaster and in each of the associated county boroughs during the week ended 14th July, 1939:

    Area.

    Number of payments.

    Administrative county of Lancaster

    20,594

    County Boroughs:

    Barrow-in-Furness

    680

    Blackburn

    4,727

    Blackpool

    1,109

    Bolton

    3,042

    Bootle

    5,735

    Burnley

    3,312

    Bury

    791

    Liverpool

    26,971

    Manchester

    13,447

    Oldham

    4,022

    Preston

    1,893

    Rochdale

    1,464

    St. Helens

    3,691

    Salford

    2,884

    Southport

    599

    Warrington

    930

    Wigan

    4,011

    Total—Lancashire

    99,902

    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that in April, 1939, 26.6 per cent, of the applicants for unemployment assistance in the Bargoed area and 32.8 per cent, of similar applicants in the Caerphilly area required additions to scale allowance for nourishment purposes, he is prepared to re-investigate the claim that the present scale allowances are inadequate to meet the needs arising out of long-term unemployment?
    Mr. Brown: The additions to which the hon. Member refers are given irrespective of the duration of unemployment and are designed to meet needs arising from some specific cause such as illness in the applicant's household. I cannot agree that the fact, that use is made of the discretionary powers contained in the Regulations to meet special needs of this kind is a ground for suggesting that a general revision of the scales is called for.
    Mr. Edwards: What degree of suffering has to obtain in South Wales before the Minister will be prepared to meet these cases?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot accept that at all. The hon. Member knows that the average payment per applicant is now higher than it ever was.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Does the right hon. Gentleman say that there is no suffering?
    Mr. Brown: I said I could not accept the implication in the supplementary question.
    Mr. Batey: asked the Minister of Labour the amount that was saved by the Unemployment Assistance Board owing to the means test during 1938; and the estimate of the amount for this year?
    Mr. Brown: I regret that it is not possible to add anything to the information given in a reply to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) on 16th July, 1936, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. Batey: Is the Minister aware that the Unemployment Assistance Board gave these figures in the 1937 report, and if they could do it then, why cannot they do it now?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot agree with the hon. Member's statement. On many occasions I have given a long and reasoned reply on that matter.
    Mr. Batey: Is not the Minister aware that in 1937 the Board reported that the total amount going into the households where the means test applied was £19,000,000, and that 25 per cent. was used to reduce the benefits?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member's supplementary question proves my original answer.
    Mr. Lawson: Is it not a fact that the Minister does not want to give the figures?
    Mr. Brown: No. I am always glad to give figures. I am prepared to give a multitude of figures.
    Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Labour the amount paid to unemployed persons by the Unemployment Assistance Board for the year 1935 and the estimate for 1939?
    Mr. Brown: The total amount paid to applicants for assistance to the Unemployment Assistance Board during the financial year 1935 was £42,569,000. The
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    provision for the financial year 1939 made in the Estimates is £38,875,000; it is expected that the actual expenditure will be less than this sum but it is not possible at this stage to give any definite figure.
    Mr. Batey: As there has been a reduction of £6,000,000 in payments, could not the Government agree to abolish the means test?
    Mr. Brown: No. The reason for the reduction is happily this, that when the Board was established it was estimated that they would be dealing with an average roll of 800,000 long-term unemployed, whereas at present the figure is 456,000.
    Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Labour the amount of money going into households under the means test from the following sources during 1938: sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions, and blind pensions?
    Mr. Brown: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a similar question by the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) on 22nd June, 1939, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. It is estimated that of the sum of £13,157,600, shown in that reply as earnings, about £8,600,000 represents the earnings of sons or daughters of applicants, and about £1,900,000, the earnings of brothers or sisters.
    Mr. Batey: Is the Minister aware that the answer to the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) gave only the amount for old age pensions, widows' pensions and blind pensions, and did not deal with sons and daughters, or brothers and sisters?
    Mr. Brown: I have done my best to supplement that in the answer I have just given. I am always glad to oblige.
    Mr. Johnasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in receipt of discretionary allowances at the following area offices: Treorchy, Tonypandy, Ferndale and Porth?
    Mr. Brown: Such information as is available is based upon a 5 per cent. sample of cases current on 7th October, 1938. This sample indicates that in the Board's administrative district of Cardiff, which includes the areas of Treorchy,

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    Tonypandy, Ferndale and Porth, 14,880 determinations out of a total of 28,740, representing 51.8 per cent., included discretionary additions. While such a sample gives reasonably accurate results in relation to an administrative district as a whole, it is not sufficiently large to be used as a basis for separate statistics for individual areas.
    Mr. John: Why is it not possible to give these figures for the areas mentioned in this question?
    Mr. Brown: It would not be possible without a complete examination. At the moment, I do not think such an examination would be justified.
    Mr. Horabinasked the Minister of Labour whether he can state, as on the last convenient date, how many domiciliary visits are paid by means-test investigators in the Southern area which involve journeys out and home of over 25, 50 and 100 miles?
    Mr. Brown: I regret that the information desired by the hon. Member is not available and could not be obtained without a special detailed examination in the Board's local offices of the individual travelling records of the investigating officers who carry out the work of domiciliary investigation in the Board's southern region.

    DURHAM COUNTY.
    Mr. Leslieasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the estimated loss of people from the county of

    Numbers of unemployed persons, aged 14 and over, on the registers of Employment Exchanges which serve the Special Areas.

    —

    26th November, 1934.

    10th July, 1939.

    Decrease.

    Number.

    Per cent.

    Durham and Tyneside

    …

    …

    176,862

    90,753

    86, 109

    48.7

    West Cumberland

    …

    13,530

    7,594

    5,936

    43.9

    South Wales and Monmouthshire

    157,174

    76,158

    81,016

    51.5

    South-West Scotland

    …

    …

    94,360

    51,688

    42,672

    45.2

    Total

    …

    …

    441,926

    226,193

    215,733

    48.8

    Mr. Brookeasked the Minister of Labour particulars as to the age distribution of men unemployed in each of the
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    Durham by emigration from 1931 to mid-1938, the latest date for which an estimate is obtainable, was 76,000; and whether there is any hope of new industries being established to prevent this constant drain of young people from the county?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am aware that there has been considerable migration from this area, but would remind the hon. Member of the large number of new industrial undertakings which have been established in Durham with assistance in one form or another under the Special Areas Acts.
    Mr. Leslie: Is the Minister aware that factories are still being erected in the London area, and will he use his influence to see that some of the factories are diverted to Durham?
    Mr. Brown: No doubt that matter will be dealt with in the Debate to-day.

    SPECIAL AREAS.
    Mr. Brookeasked the Minister of Labour how great have been the reductions in unemployment in each of the four Special Areas between the date of the first appointment of the Commissioners and the present time?
    Mr. E. Brown: As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    The table below gives the information desired.
    Special Areas for any date in the current year?
    Mr. Brown: I am having the figures extracted and will send them to the hon. Member.

    ARMS FACTORY, MIDLANDS (OVERTIME WORK).
    Mr. Leslieasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that men employed in a Midlands arms factory are suffering from fatigue due to excessive overtime, resulting in a high rate of breakage of machine-tools; that during the Great War sickness ratio amongst munitions workers, due to excessive hours of labour, increased to such an extent that representations on the subject were made to the Government by the medical fraternity; and will he take steps to prevent long hours in the interests of the workers' health?
    Mr. E. Brown: I am not aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers. I would point out that there is joint machinery in the engineering industry under which cases of alleged excessive overtime can be brought up.

    MILL, MELTHAM (PROPOSED CLOSING DOWN).
    Mr. Glenvil Hallasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the United Thread Company's mill at Meltham, upon which the town largely depends for employment and its local tradesmen for customers, is about to close down; and what action he proposes to take both to find work for those displaced and to utilise the mill itself at this time of national emergency?
    Mr. E. Brown: I understand that the mill is to be closed down but no definite date has yet been fixed. My Department are in touch with the firm and a considerable number of workpeople have already been released in order to take up other employment. Every effort will be made to place the remainder of the workpeople in employment when the time comes for their discharge. The facilities available at Meltham will be borne in mind by my Department. I understand that the Meltham Urban District Council have already been in communication with the Army Clothing Contracts Advisory Committee in Manchester, with regard to the possibility of using the mill for this type of work.

    GLASCOED ORDNANCE WORKS.
    Mr. Jenkinsasked the Minister of Labour the total number of workpeople taken on and recruited through the Employment Exchanges in Monmouthshire, during the past six months, at the Glascoed ordnance works; and the number of men amongst them who are 50 years of age and upwards?
    Mr. E. Brown: I regret this information is not available, but I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of Thursday last.
    Mr. Jenkins: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it is worth while making inquiries in order to ascertain whether or not these men, who have been unemployed for long periods and are about 50 years of age, are being employed on this Government work?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows that I did my best to procure the information by having a rough count made on Friday week which showed that at least 475 men aged 50 or over were engaged on this work.
    Mr. Jenkins: Does that mean that the Minister has knowledge that these contractors are refusing to take men who are about 50 years of age?
    Mr. Brown: No such assumption must be made.
    Mr. Jenkinsasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that of 6,500 men now employed on the construction of the Glascoed ordnance works more than half are expected to be discharged during the next six months; whether any plans have been prepared for providing alternative work for those men; and, if so, can he indicate the type of work that will be provided?
    Mr. Brown: I am aware that work on the Glascoed Ordnance Factory must be expected to fall off gradually during the course of the next 12 months. I have no reason to suppose that as men are discharged they will not be absorbed on other Government or civil building works under construction or in contemplation. I can assure the hon. Member that all possible steps will be taken through the machinery of the Employment Exchanges to place such men in employment for which they are qualified.
    Mr. Jenkins: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if these men are thrown out of employment, the percentage of unemployment in that area will be as high as ever it has been; and that in addition to the local people he will have to contend with the people who have been imported through this job?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot accept that assumption. The same kind of case was put up in advance when the work at Chorley was coming to an end and we made the most elaborate arrangements there. We found, when the time came that many of the men had found jobs elsewhere.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Is the Minister aware that the same position will arise in connection with other works at Bridgend and elsewhere, and that during the next few months thousands of men who have been engaged on the construction of these works will be unemployed; and what prospect can the right hon. Gentleman hold out that work will be found for these men in the areas in which they live?
    Mr. Brown: We shall do our best in advance, but I deprecate these general statements as to what must happen in certain circumstances, six months hence. They are much too arbitrary.
    Mr. Griffiths: Does the Minister deny that these men will lose their jobs?
    Mr. Brown: On this particular work, but it does not follow that they will not get other work.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Has not the Minister often referred to what will happen in the winter time?

    ELDERLY WORKERS.
    Mr. Brookeasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, although a substantial general reduction took place in unemployment between February, 1938, and May, 1939, there was no reduction during that period in the number of men aged 45 years and over who have been unemployed for more than 12 months; and whether he will give further consideration to methods of securing for such men a fair chance in the labour market?
    Mr. E. Brown: Yes, Sir. This appears to result from the displacement of a number of elderly workers which occurred during
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    the recession in trade in the Autumn of 1937, and is indicative of the difficulty which older men, in general, experience in regaining employment. It must not, however, be assumed that the recent improvement in employment has in no way benefited the older workers since, during the same period there was a reduction of over 4,000 in the number of men over 45 years of age who had been unemployed for two years or more. As I mentioned in my replies to the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) on 2nd February, 1939, and to the hon. Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward) on 15th June, 1939, the question of re-absorbing the elderly unemployed is a matter which is engaging my attention.

  MILITARY TRAINING.

    DISMISSED EMPLOYÉS.
    Mr. A. Jenkinsasked the Minister of Labour the number of cases reported to him of young men liable to be called up under the Military Training Act who have been dismissed from their employment; the number he has caused to be investigated; and in how many cases he proposes to take further action?
    Mr. Stephen:asked the Minister of Labour how many complaints he has received of militiamen losing their employment because of their liability for service under the Military Training Act; what is the nature of the evidence he requires before action is taken to prosecute employers who dismiss their employés, and particularly in deciding between the employers' assurance that the dismissal occurred owing to slackness of work and the complaint of the dismissed employé that his dismissal is due to his liability to service?
    Mr. E. Brown: One hundred and sixty-two cases altogether have been reported to the Department, of which 46 were sent to me personally, or to the Parliamentary Secretary. Investigation is complete in 106 cases and is proceeding in the remainder. In none of the cases where the investigations are complete has any sufficient evidence been revealed to support the suggestion that a dismissal was due to the man's liability under the Military Training Act. The kind of evidence required must depend on the particular circumstances of the case.
    Mr. Benn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many of these cases the man just gets a notice to leave? What evidence does the right hon. Gentleman ask for in these cases?
    Mr. Brown: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. The procedure is this. The moment we get a complaint we find whether it can be classified into one of two classes, whether there is no prima facie evidence in the case itself, or whether there is prima facie evidence. In the case where there is no prima facie evidence, we give instructions locally to make inquiries, and, of course, we can, through our exchange machinery, soon come to the conclusion as to whether the employer has a good or bad reputation. Where there is a prima facie case we then proceed at once to ask the employer for his observations. May I add this: It is a very important matter. I have received a number of replies. There may be some legal trouble between the two sides—we have had it in recent cases—but if any hon. Member would like to see the reply in any case in which he is interested, I shall be pleased to show it to him.
    Mr. Jenkins: May I ask whether or not the tribunal has been consulted in any of these cases?
    Mr. Brown: I should like to have notice of that question.

    LANCASHIRE.
    Mr. G. Macdonaldasked the Minister of Labour the number of youths called up in Lancashire under the Military Training Act; the number who were employed in the coal industry; and the number liable yet to be called up subject to physical fitness?
    Mr. E. Brown: The answers to the first two parts of the question are 4,818 and 142 respectively. The number of men in Lancashire who remain liable, subject to fitness, to be called up before June, 1940, is 18,742.

    ALLOWANCES.
    Mr. Kennedyasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that John Drummond, of 239, Links Street, Kirkcaldy, who recently joined the Militia, agreed to a deduction of 3s. 6d. weekly from his military pay, payable to his
    2602
    mother; that the War Office augmented by 13s. 6d. weekly; that the weekly allowance of Drummond's father has been reduced by the Unemployment Assistance Board by IIS. weekly on account of his son's Militia grant; and whether he will take steps to secure that this deduction is not made, in view of the voluntary deduction from Drummond's military pay and the nature of the War Office allowance?
    Mr. E. Brown: I understand that before Mr. Drummond was called up for training the Board's allowance to his unemployed father was at the rate of 18s. 6d. per week, including 2s. for extra nourishment for his sister. The household consisted of, the father, his wife and an unemployed daughter and of Mr. Drummond himself, who was in work. The present allowance is at the rate of 23s. including the same 2s. which at present has been granted only up to 25th August, but will be continued if the circumstances justify it. The applicant's mother is of course receiving, in addition, the 3s. 6d. allotment and the grant of 13s. 6d. making a weekly total of 40s.
    Mr. Kennedy: Do I understand that the Minister is satisfied with this treatment of the father, and that this was purely a matter of administration as far as the benefit was concerned?
    Mr. Brown: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the way in which the applicant's father was treated before the allotment was made and after the son had enlisted, he will find that there was a rise of 9s.

    CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
    Mr. Dayasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the remarks of the chairman of the military service tribunal held at Birmingham on the 26th July, when he warned applicants for permission to be placed on the register of conscientious objectors that if they broke the conditions of such registration they would have to face the tribunal again and, perhaps, be fined; and by what authority the chairman was empowered to threaten applicants in this manner?
    Mr. E. Brown: I understand that the chairman of the tribunal referred to the provisions of the Military Training Act

    2603
    which apply where persons registered conditionally under Section 3 (7) (b) of the Act fail to observe the condition of registration. I consider that it is in the interests of the applicants themselves as well as in the public interest that the provisions of the Act should be made known.
    Mr. Day: May we be informed whether any suggestions were made to the chairman by any officers representing the Ministry?
    Mr. Brown: The chairman, of course, exercised his discretion as chairman of the tribunal, and there was no question of pressure.
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Labour whether he has yet constituted the local tribunals for conscientious objectors under the Military Training Act; and, if so, whether he will give the names of the chairman and members who have been appointed?
    Mr. E. Brown:The following local tribunals have so far been constituted:

    East Anglia.

    Midlands.

    South Eastern.

    South Western.

    North Wales.

    South Wales.

    The Northern Counties of Scotland.

    The North Eastern Counties of Scotland.

    The South Eastern Counties of Scotland.

    In the case of the remaining six tribunals I have appointed the chairmen, but there are still vacancies to be filled. I am circulating the full list up to date in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the list:
    Local Tribunals Constituted.
    East Anglia.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Campbell.
    Members:

    J. H. Clapham, Esq., C.B.E., M.A., Litt.D., F.B.A.

    The Rt. Hon. The Earl of Cranbrook.

    W. Holmes, Esq.

    R. Skinner, Esq., J.P.

    Midlands.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Longson.
    Members:

    A. H. Gibbard, Esq., M.B.E., A.C.I.I.

    George Trevelyan Lee, Esq.

    Councillor E. Purser.

    Professor J. G. Smith, M.Comm, M.A.

    South Eastern.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge David Davies K.C.
    Members:

    Councillor Sir Charles Grey, Bt.

    Sir Reginald Kennedy Cox, J.P.

    Dr. G. Senter, D.Sc.

    F. G. Witcher, Esq.

    South Western.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Wethered.
    Members:

    Dr. C. Bailey, C.B.E., M.A., D.Litt.

    C. P. Brown, Esq., J.P.

    A. L. Hobhouse, Esq., J.P.

    Alderman F. Sheppard, C.B.E., M.A. J.P.

    North Wales.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Sir Thomas Artemus Jones, K.C.
    Members:

    Alderman T. Lloyd Williams, J.P.

    Councillor R. Owen.

    Hugh Parry, Esq.

    Alderman H. R. Thomas.

    South Wales,
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Frank Davies
    Members:

    James Evans, Esq., C.B.E.

    O. Harris, Esq.

    Sir L. Twiston-Davies.

    J. H. Williams, Esq., J.P.

    The Northern Counties of Scotland.
    Chairman: Robert H. Maconochie, Esq. O.B.E., K.C.
    Members:

    P. Campbell, Esq.

    Provost Hugh Mackenzie.

    Dr. G. G. Middleton.

    F. O. Stuart, Esq.

    The North Eastern Counties of Scotland.
    Chairman: Sir George Morton, K.C.
    Members:

    G. Duncan, Esq., LI.D.

    Principal W. Hamilton Fyfe.

    G. R. McIntosh, Esq.

    Sir Russell Scott, K.C.B., C.S.I.

    South Eastern Counties of Scotland.
    Chairman: C. H. Brown, Esq., K.C.
    Members:

    W. H. Buist, Esq., O.B.E.

    A. B. Clarke, Esq., J.P.

    Professor V. H. Galbraith.

    E. M. Wedderburn, Esq., O.B.E., LI.D

    Local Tribunals not yet Constituted.
    Cumberland and Westmorland.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Peel, O.B.E.,K.C.
    Members:

    Frank A. Carr, Esq.

    Charles H. Roberts, Esq.

    A Stephenson, Esq.

    One vacancy.

    London.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Hargreaves.
    Members:

    Sir James Baillie, O.B.E., J.P.

    Sir Edmund B. Phipps, C.B.

    A B. Swales, Esq.

    One vacancy.

    North Eastern.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Stewart.
    Members:

    E. C. Behrens, Esq., O.B.E., J.P.

    W. H. Dodgson, Esq., J.P.

    Two vacancies.

    North Western.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Burgis.
    Members:

    Lawrence D. Holt, Esq., J.P.

    A. Roberts, Esq.

    Two vacancies.

    Northumberland and Durham.
    Chairman: His Honour Judge Richardson, O.B.E.
    Members:

    Professor James F. Duff, M.A., M.Ed.

    Sir Lake Thompson.

    W. Westwood, Esq., O.B.E., J.P.

    One vacancy.

    South Western Counties of Scotland.
    Chairman: Sir Archibald Campbell Black,K.C.
    Members:

    Sir Robert Bruce.

    Professor J. J. Craik Henderson.

    W. Lorimer, Esq., O.B.E., J.P.

    One vacancy.

    UNEMPLOYED MEN.
    Mr. Johnasked the Minister of Labour the number of men who have been called up under the Military Training Act who were in receipt of unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance at the following exchanges and area offices: Treorchy, Tonypandy, Ferndale and Porth?
    Mr. E. Brown: I regret that this information is not available.

  HOLIDAYS WITH PAY (SEAMEN).
  Mr. J. Hallasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Danish Government has formally ratified the Convention concerning holidays with pay for seamen; and whether he is now prepared to consider the ratification of this convention?
  Mr. E. Brown: No, Sir. I understand that the convention referred to has not been ratified by Denmark.
  Mr. Hall: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that he has made many statements in the House concerning his desire to see holidays with pay, and is he not prepared to give effect to that desire by doing something for the sailors?
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member asked about Denmark, and I said that he was misinformed. I understand there was a mistake in the publication.

  CENTRAL REGISTER.
  Mr. Pickthornasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons who have enrolled in each of the main categories of the central register of persons with scientific, technical, professional, and higher administrative qualifications; whether these numbers are regarded as adequate; and the extent to which the register is being used in peace time?
  Mr. E. Brown: As the reply is somewhat long, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the statement:

  The numbers of volunteers enrolled in the main categories of the central register on 22nd July were as follow:

  Scientific Research

  6,456

  Industrial Chemistry

  4,743

  General Engineering

  20,907

  Mining and Metallurgy

  1,972

  Accountancy

  14,341

  Architectural and Public Utilities

  17,075

  Universities and Teaching

  4,617

  Administration and Management

  6,297

  Linguists

  1,299

  Others

  2,619

  Total

  80,326

  The response has, in the main, been satisfactory, but some employers in certain of the more important categories have been reluctant to allow qualified members of their staff to volunteer. It is thought that this may be due to a misconception of the use to which the register would be put in war time. Machinery will then exist to determine priorities of national importance between different classes of work, and before volunteers already in employment are submitted for alternative posts, the observations of their employers will be carefully considered by expert committees appointed for the purpose. It is, therefore, hoped that in the national interest employers will encourage their qualified staffs to enrol on the register so that it may be equal to the calls made upon it in the event of war. It is to be remembered also that the register will be available in war time for the use of employers as well as of Government Departments and that in certain circumstances they may find it of great use for securing replacements of staff.
  As the register is intended as a pool from which to draw qualified persons in

  2607
  war time, volunteers should not expect to be allocated to specific posts in advance of an emergency, although it is proving possible to do this in a comparatively small number of cases.

  HOSIERY FACTORY, WOOLTON, LIVERPOOL (DISPUTE).
  Mr. Charles Brownasked the Minister of Labour whether, as the result of the recent intervention of his Department in the dispute at the hosiery factory at Woolton, Liverpool, where Bear brank silk stockings are manufactured, any progress was made towards a settlement of this dispute which has now lasted 16 weeks?
  Mr. E. Brown: Following representations by the Hosiery Joint Industrial Council alleging the non-observance of the industry's agreement by this company, I have been in communication with them on the subject. I do not think it desirable, however, to make any further comment on the position at the present juncture.
  Mr. C. Brown: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider making an effort to bring the parties together in this case; and does he not think that the directors of this company are rather archaic in their ideas, when they will not negotiate with the trade union concerned?
  Mr. E. Brown: I do not think it would be helpful if I adopted the suggestion of the hon. Member, but we are in close touch with the case and we shall do our best in this instance, as always, to ensure a satisfactory issue.

  ANTI-BRITISH PROPAGANDA.
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has considered the copy sent to him of a Memorandum prepared by the Economic League on German propaganda in Great Britain, and similar statements made by many others; and what action is it intended to take?
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Samuel Hoare): I have seen the Memorandum and, as I have stated in reply to previous questions, a
  2608
  close watch is maintained upon all such activities as these described in the Memorandum. The action to be taken necessarily varies according to different circumstances. There are some forms of anti-British propaganda with which it is unnecessary to interfere, since the only effect that they have is the opposite to what their authors intend.
  Mr. Smith: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain lords and other people in high places are associated with this propaganda; and is he further aware that members of the Cabinet are aware that money is being sent from certain countries to this country, in order to stir up internal strife; and in view of that fact will the right hon. Gentleman take more energetic action in the near future than he has done in the past?
  Sir S. Hoare: I think my answer to all those three questions is "No." Certainly the answer to the first one is "No." In answer to the second, I would say that we are aware of these activities, and when we think fit to intervene we do intervene. My own view is that most of this propaganda is so fantastic, irresponsible and foolish that it does others much more harm than it does here?
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister keeping an eye on the fifth column in this House.

  METROPOLITAN POLICE (TRAFFIC PATROLS).
  Mr. Dayasked the Home Secretary the amount expended in the provision, maintenance, and running of the motor vehicles used by the traffic patrols of the Metropolitan Police for the 12 months ended the last convenient date; and the amount expended on the special uniforms worn by the driver and crew over and above the cost of ordinary uniforms?
  Sir S. Hoare: The provision, maintenance and running of the motor vehicles used by the traffic patrols of the Metropolitan Police for the 12 months ended 31st December, 1938, cost £50,670, and the special uniforms worn by the drivers and crews involved an expenditure of approximately £2,300 more than the cost of ordinary uniforms.
  Mr. Day: Can the Minister say whether any portion of the £423,695 which

  2609
  motorists have been fined, according to a White Paper, was allocated to meet this expenditure?
  Sir S. Hoare: I am not sure to what figure the hon. Member is referring.
  Mr. Day: Is the Minister aware that a White Paper, circulated by the Vote Office and entitled "Offences Relating to Motor Vehicles," shows that the amount in which motorists have been fined during the last year is £423,695 5s. 3d.?
  Sir S. Hoare: A great many figures are published in these Home Office White Papers, and I would call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that he did not use that figure in his question. I have answered his question.
  Sir Herbert Williams: What proportion of these fines was collected on Rolls-Royce cars?

  SILICOSIS.
  Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Home Secretary what progress has been made in the investigations into the problem of silicosis amongst the slate miners in the Festiniog district of North Wales; and whether it is his intention to make an order bringing these workmen within the scope of the silicosis schemes?
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): My right hon. Friend is in communication with the Secretary of the Joint Industrial Council on the question of extending the present silicosis compensation scheme to cover all underground employment in slate mines. He is not yet in a position to reach a final decison, but the hon. Member may rest assured that the subject is being pursued.
  Mr. Griffiths: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that his answer referring only to occupations underground will create anomalies and hardships, that there are men engaged in surface quarrying who are affected by silicosis, and that it will be a tragedy for such men if they are not included? Will he bear that in mind before making the order?
  Mr. Peake: I will certainly bear it in mind, but I cannot promise to do anything on the lines which the hon. Member suggests.
  Mr. Griffiths: Is the hon. Member aware that those concerned have made strong representations that to leave quarrymen outside the scheduled persons will give rise to very serious anomalies?
  Mr. Peake: I am aware of the representations, but the investigations which we have made do not show that surface workers are affected by silicosis in the same way as underground workers.
  Mr. Griffiths: Do I gather than the hon. Gentleman's Department have no evidence of any cases of silicosis in men engaged in these quarries?
  Mr. Peake: I am afraid I cannot add to my previous answers.

  PREVENTION OF VIOLENCE.
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the condemnation by the Government of Eire of bomb outrages in this country, he has sought, or will seek, mutual action between that Government and the British Government in order the more effectually to secure the prevention of these crimes of violence?
  Sir S. Hoare: The hon. Member may be assured that the Government are fully alive to the need for taking every practicable step with the object of securing the prevention of these outrages.
  Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it would be a courtesy and some encouragement to the better elements in Eire if we actively co-operated with the Government of Eire?
  Sir S. Hoare: We are most anxious to have as much co-operation as possible.
  Mr. Sorensen: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether in fact there has been any real contact with the Government of Eire?
  Sir S. Hoare: I have given an answer, and I prefer not to add anything to it.
  Mr. Macquisten: Does not my right hon. Friend know that the purpose of the I.R.A. is to get hold of Ulster and suppress it?
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Home Secretary what evidence he has, whether positive or circumstantial, of the sources

  2611
  from which the finances of the perpetrators of bomb outrages in this country are derived, in whole or in part?
  Captain Ramsayasked the Home Secretary whether the recent inquiries into the activities of the Irish Republican Army have revealed any traces of complicity or support on the part of any foreign Government or organisation?
  Sir S. Hoare: I cannot add anything to the statement which I made on this point in the Debate on Second Reading of the Prevention of Violence (Temporary Provisions) Bill.
  Captain Ramsay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that included in the present I.R.A. are leading officials of the Irish Communist party and the Left Book Club, and if I send him the names and addresses of a couple of dozen of them, will he have them looked up?
  Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. Is it in order for a Member of this House to make such deliberate, calculated, slanderous statements about any member of a bona fide political party? If the term "liar" were not out of order, I would use it here at this moment.
  Captain Ramsay: If I send my hon. Friend the names and addresses of a couple of dozen of these people, will he have them checked?
  Sir S. Hoare: I am always ready to receive information from any hon. Member. As far as this question is concerned, however, I cannot add anything to the answer that I have just given.
  Mr. Sorensen: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether in fact any Continental money has been proved to be behind any of these outrages?
  Sir S. Hoare: I have said twice that it would not be in the public interest to add anything to what I have said already.
  Mr. Macquisten: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) is a good judge of liars?

  SITTINGS OF PARLIAMENT.
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Prime Minister whether he will undertake to summon Parliament at once upon the happening of any change that may affect the people?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain):As I informed the House yesterday, the Government will not hesitate to consult Mr. Speaker with a view to recalling this House if the public interest so requires.

  FINGER PRINTS (BARNSLEY).
  Mr. G. Griffithsasked the Home Secretary by what authority the West Riding police, at the Barnsley, West Riding, court, took the finger prints and photograph of James William Burton, aged 17 years, when his father, who was present, refused to give his consent?
  Sir S. Hoare: I have been in communication with the Chief Constable of the West Riding on the subject and am informed that Burton did not object to his finger prints and photograph being taken, though it was pointed out to him that he was at liberty to do so, and that his father, who entered the room while the finger prints were being taken, raised no objection when informed that his son had not done so. I cannot find that there was any irregularity in the action of the police.
  Mr. Griffiths: Does the right hon. Gentleman know that Burton himself said to me on Sunday morning at 11 o'clock that he was in the office with his son and protested strongly against the son's finger prints being taken? That is straight from the horse's mouth.
  Sir S. Hoare: I have information straight from the stable as well, and my information is directly contrary to the information of the hon. Member. I am quite ready to show him my information and to compare it with his.

  TEXTILE FACTORIES (YOUNG PERSONS).
  Mr. Tomlinsonasked the Home-Secretary whether he has considered the communication from the legislative council of the Textile Factory Workers' Association expressing their disappointment at the Government's action in issuing regulations under Section 71 (2) of the Factories Act, 1937; and what answer he proposes to give to the request that the period of the order should be limited to the shortest possible time?
  Mr. Peake: My right hon. Friend has received this communication, and will carefully consider the point as to a time limit, but he is not in a position to reach a decision upon it at the present stage.

  CIVIL DEFENCE.

    AIR-RAID SHELTERS.
    Mr. Dayasked the Lord Privy Seal the number of air-raid shelters that have been issued to private householders residing in the borough of Southwark; whether the same are in condition for immediate use; and what steps are being taken to supply the balance of the householders in this district with air-raid shelters on demand?
    The Lord Privy Seal (Sir John Anderson):The borough council of Southwark has been supplied with all the standard steel shelters for which it considers there are suitable sites in the borough. Of this quantity, 2,275 have been erected, and the balance of approximately 1,000 will be erected by the end of August. In addition, the names of 345 householders are recorded as eligible to receive shelters giving extended accommodation. These will be delivered towards the end of August. Other dwelling-houses in the borough are being surveyed by the local authority as rapidly as possible in order to see what alternative types of shelter, either surface shelters or strutted basements, can be provided.
    Mr. Day: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these shelters that have been erected are not in a proper or reasonable position, and are steps being taken to remedy that?
    Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir. I have answered the question on the Paper, and I have said that 2,275 shelters have been erected, and that the remainder, amounting to about 1,000, will have been erected by the end of August.
    Mr. Day: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those that are erected are not in the proper positions?
    Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir, I am not.
    Mr. Duncanasked the Lord Privy Seal what is the estimated number of persons in London entitled to free shelter from air raids in or near their homes?
    Sir J. Anderson: I am not in a position to give any close estimate of the numbers of persons in London who come within the Government's scheme for the free provision of domestic shelter. According to estimates made by the local authorities concerned, there are approximately 936,325 householders in the Metropolitan Police District who fall within the categories to which the steel shelters are being distributed and occupy houses in which this type of shelter can suitably be installed. This number of householders might be taken as representing a total of about 4,000,000 persons; but there would remain, in addition, those for whom shelter can more suitably be provided by other means, such as the standard type of surface shelter or the strutted basement. The precise extent of this part of the problem is being ascertained by means of a survey which is now being carried out as rapidly as possible throughout the Metropolitan boroughs.
    Mr. Duncan: May I ask when that survey will be finished, and in view of the Recess, will my right hon. Friend publish the results of the survey?
    Sir J. Anderson: The survey is being proceeded with very rapidly, and I have little doubt that it will be finished in the very near future. I will consider the suggestion made by my hon. Friend in the second part of his supplementary question.
    Dr. Haden Guest: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the value of these shelters is seriously detracted from by the fact that they let in water and that it is extremely difficult to drain them, and can his Department make any suggestion for dealing with that problem?
    Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir. Special attention has been given within the last few weeks to the problem of drainage in connection with these steel shelters, and suggestions have been communicated quite recently to local authorities on the subject.
    Mr. Mathers: What proportion of people who are entitled to receive these shelters are refusing to accept them, and what proportion receiving them are refusing to have them erected?
    Sir J. Anderson: That arises on another question.
    Mr. Duncanasked the Lord Privy Seal how many Anderson shelters have been distributed in London; how many remain to be distributed; for how many persons protection will be provided by this means; and in how many cases have persons refused to receive the shelters offered them?
    Sir J. Anderson: The number of standard unit shelters distributed up to date in the Metropolitan Police District is 394,840. The number remaining to be distributed, according to the estimates furnished by the local authorities, is 541,485. This total number of shelters is capable of affording protection for over 5,500,000 persons. I have no precise information as to the number of eligible householders who have refused shelters offered to them.
    Mr. Duncan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Wandsworth a considerable number of people have refused to receive these shelters, and may I ask what he is prepared to do about it?
    Sir J. Anderson: The demand for shelters greatly exceeds the available supply at this moment, and I am not, therefore, concerning myself unduly with individual cases of persons who refuse them. The number of those who have declined to receive shelters for a variety of reasons, some good and some certainly bad, varies greatly from district to district, and I am instructing my technical officers, in conjunction with the local authorities concerned, to give special attention to this matter in the next few weeks.
    Mr. Macquisten: Is there any way by which one could tempt the people to have these shelters, such as getting the Milk Board to supply them with free milk?
    Mr. Duncanasked the Lord Privy Seal whether the survey of basement and other accommodation for the purpose of protection from air raids by strutting or similar means has been completed in London; for how many persons protection by these means will be provided; and when the work of strutting will be commenced?
    Sir J. Anderson: The survey to which the hon. Members refers has been completed in some of the London boroughs, but not in all. I am not, therefore, in a
    2616
    position to say how many persons in London will be provided with shelter by the strutting of basements or by other similar means. The work of strutting basements has already commenced in one borough.
    Mr. Duncan: May I ask which borough it is?
    Sir J. Anderson: Kensington.

    DOMESTIC LIGHTING.
    Mr. Grovesasked the Lord Privy Seal if, in respect to domestic electric light bulbs in case of emergency, his Department has considered, or experimented with, any process for the dimming or covering of the globe thus preventing outside reflection but leaving reasonably sufficient interior lighting; and, if not, in view of the fact that curtains or blinds may not be available or serviceable, will he consider the possibilities of such light cover, and consult local electric light authorities as to the provision of stocks of these covers?
    Sir J. Anderson: A number of devices for the dimming and shading of domestic electric light globes have been brought to the notice of my Department; but, as I indicated in reply to the hon. Member's question on 1st December last, none of these devices will give sufficient internal light without external visibility, and there is no practicable alternative to the screening of windows.

    EVACUATION.
    Mr. Magnayasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has considered making use of the expert services of the road patrols of the Automobile Association and the Royal Automobile Club in connection with road evacuation plans or in any other capacity?
    Sir J. Anderson: Offers of assistance in time of emergency have been received from these two organisations, and arrangements have been made by the police and the Service Departments for the use of their patrols in connection with voluntary evacuation and movements of the armed forces?

    ISLE OF DOGS.
    Mr. D. M. Adamsasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that the Isle of Dogs, Poplar, is a district that surrounds the docks and is itself surrounded by water; that the only outlet

    2617
    is by bridges at each side of the district, and that in the event of damage caused by aerial attack to these bridges there would be no means of escape; and will he therefore consider the erection of deep bombproof shelters to afford protection to those who would be forced to remain in the district?
    Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir. I am aware of the special character of this area, and the responsible local authority can count on special consideration of their problem by my technical advisers. As regards the last part of the question, deep shelters of any kind would not seem to be an appropriate remedy in a heavily water-logged area.
    Mr. Adams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the census of 1937 showed there were 18,875 people residing in that district, and that to-day the population is much larger, and will he do something for these people, seeing that only 700 Anderson shelters have been erected out of 2,000 on account of the water conditions? Surely the Minister could have deep shelters there, seeing that there are tunnels in the same district?
    Sir J. Anderson: The responsibility is primarily that of the local authority, and I have promised the local authority the fullest assistance from my technical officers.
    Mr. A. V. Alexander: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the working of the docks in London during an emergency will be of great importance, and that we shall be unable to maintain the labour supply there unless we have effective air-raid precautions, and is not that a matter for the Government?
    Sir J. Anderson: I do not recognise that as arising directly out of the question, which is confined to the circumstances of a particular area. I know there are docks there, but the dockers will not be able to make any effective contribution to the working of the docks while in deep shelters.
    Mr. D. M. Adams: Is the Minister also aware that in that area there are no facilities to deal with people who are injured, that there is no hospital there? Will he take that into consideration?
    Sir J. Anderson: That, really, is an entirely different question, but I should not like the House to suppose that my
    2618
    Department are in any way unsympathetic to the problems that arise in a very special area such as this.

    BLOOD TRANSFUSION.
    Dr. Guestasked the Minister of Health whether the blood taken from donors to be stored for use in emergency is stored separately or mixed in bulk; whether he is satisfied as to the condition of such storage; and whether the danger of the conveyance of disease is adequately safeguarded?
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): Donors of blood are being grouped and registered but will not be asked to give blood unless and until an emergency arises. The blood taken from each donor will then be stored separately and not mixed. The arrangements for storage are made under the supervision of pathological experts and I am advised that there is no danger of disease being transmitted through blood that has been stored under proper conditions.
    Dr. Guest: Is it a fact that blood is being stored in bulk at the present time?
    Mr. Elliot: No. Sir.
    Sir Francis Fremantle: Are sufficient arrangements being made for the different qualities of blood which it is essential to make if the scheme is to be of any value?
    Mr. Elliot: That point is being borne in mind.

    OPERATING THEATRE, NEWCASTLE.
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the protests made at Newcastle City Council meeting, on the 26th instant, against his refusal to sanction the erection of a building as an operating theatre more heavily protected than for blast and splinter, and which, in times of war emergency, would require to be used by two-thirds of the operating surgeons, assistants and anaesthetists; and whether he is aware that, in the opinion of the city council and of the surgeons concerned, there should not be concentrated in this small and lightly-protected building this valuable personnel liable to be destroyed by a heavy bomb falling within a short distance of it; and what steps he proposes in the matter?
    Mr. Elliot: I have seen reports of a discussion on this matter at a meeting of the city council. I have not yet given a decision, but as stated in a letter sent to the town clerk on the day before the meeting I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal on the issues of policy involved. I am anxious to find a practicable solution of this difficult problem, the technical aspects of which have been fully discussed by my officers with members and officers of the council, and I will communicate further with the council as soon as possible.
    Mr. Adams: Do we understand that the Minister is giving sympathetic consideration to this question of approving of a heavily-protected shelter being used as an operating theatre?
    Mr. Elliot: I am looking sympathetically into the matter, and am still examining it with a desire to find a practical solution.

    MENTAL HOSPITALS.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the probable increase in nervous and mental breakdowns in the event of war and the need of securing adequate hospital treatment, he will take steps to have reconsidered the present intention of utilising certain mental hospitals for the purpose of dealing with military casualties?
    Mr. Elliot:The present intention is to utilise for military casualties parts of two mental hospitals only. In the war hospitals scheme full account has been taken of the probable needs of the civil population requiring treatment for nervous or mental breakdown.
    Mr. Sorensen:May I take it from the answer of the Minister that provision has been made for the possible increase in nervous breakdowns in war time?
    Mr. Elliot: Yes, Sir.

  BURNING PIT HEAPS.
  Mr. Tinkerasked the Minister of Health whether he is now in a position to say what improvement has been made with burning pit heaps; and whether he can give an assurance that satisfactory progress is being made?
  Mr. Elliot: Of 233 pit heaps found to be on fire slightly or seriously, 14 have
  2620
  been extinguished, and 173 others improved. I am satisfied with the progress at this stage of the review undertaken by my alkali inspectorate.
  Mr. Tinker:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a private Member's Bill, the Public Health (Coal Mine Refuse) Bill, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) dealing with this matter passed its final stage last night, and will he warn colliery owners that they had better get a move on or the law will be upon them?
  Mr. Gallacher: Will the right hon. Gentleman also take care that, where improvement is made, smoke does not take the place of flames?
  Mr. G. Macdonaldasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the failure to bring about an improvement at the burning pit-heap situated at the Garswood Hill colliery, Bryn, near Wigan, he will take immediate steps to insist upon more effective measures being applied?
  Mr. Elliot: My chief inspector has reported that improvement has already been effected by the method of spraying referred to in previous answers and he advises me that a continuance of the measures at present being taken will result in still greater improvement. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
  Mr. Macdonald:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Members for Wigan (Mr. Parkinson) and Leigh (Mr. Tinker) and myself saw this pit heap last Saturday morning and that we found it to be as bad as it was 12 months ago, and will he take further action in addition to that which is now suggested?
  Mr. Elliot: I was not aware of what the hon. Member has just said, and if he will send me details of his visits I will look into the matter.

  EDUCATION.

    INSTRUCTION, BRITISH COMMONWEALTH.
    Mr. T. Smithasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether a knowledge of the British Commonwealth is imparted as part of the curriculum in our elementary schools?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay): Yes, Sir. The importance of a knowledge of the British Commonwealth is generally recognised by school authorities in the framing of syllabuses of instruction.
    Mr. Smith: Have the Board of Education considered showing the beauty spots of the Empire in a series of educational films as a means of increasing knowledge of the Commonwealth in the schools?
    Mr. Lindsay: It is not the province of the Board to prescribe curricula, and I think that is just as well, but I do know that such films are being used by local authorities, and I hope they will make even more use of them.
    Mr. Maxton: Will the Minister see that some of the facts in the recent report on nutrition in the Colonies are embodied in the lessons given?
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the Parliamentary Secretary go to see "Colony" being played at the Unity Theatre?

    SECONDARY SCHOOL, LOWESTOFT.
    Mr. Loftusasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, why the Board have prohibited the provision of separate secondary schools for boys and girls in Lowestoft, in view of the fact that His Majesty's inspectors have made very adverse reports on the accommodation at the existing school and, further, that in 1924 the acquisition of land for the erection of a separate school was authorised and part of the building actually commenced; and also in view of the fact that the East Suffolk County Council approved the proposals for the two secondary schools at Lowestoft by a very large majority?
    Mr. Lindsay: The Board have informed the local education authority that they will entertain proposals for adapting and extending the existing Lowestoft secondary school, so as to meet the criticisms of His Majesty's inspectors and to provide the extra accommodation required at the present time. In view of the additional expenditure involved in providing two separate schools and the doubt whether the new school for girls could be justified by the number of qualified pupils requiring places, the Board have not felt
    2622
    justified under the terms of Circular 1464, in agreeing to the scheme for two separate schools at the present time
    Mr. Loftus: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Board quite recently insisted on the separation of boys and girls in the last built senior central school in Lowestoft? Is he further aware that the whole question of the cost of separate schools was discussed at a meeting of the local authority, the East Suffolk County Council, at which I was present and that the arguments in favour—
    Hon. Members: Speech.
    Mr. Lindsay: I am aware of the situation generally. Alternative schemes were put before the authorities by His Majesty's inspector, and this is one of them, and because it is £20,000 cheaper, and because there is not the necessity to provide for further population, we think it wiser to go on with this scheme.
    Mr. Loftus: Does that answer mean that the Board are prepared to override the opinion of the local authority, the reports of their own inspectors and the opinion held until recently by the Board themselves?
    Mr. Lindsay: I must make it clear to my hon. Friend that we have not over-riden anybody. There were two alternative schemes, and they have chosen, admittedly, the cheaper scheme, in view of the present circumstances. They are remedying the defects in this school and they are not providing an additional school, because it was not felt that the number of girls warranted it.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Are we to assume from the answer that the Lowestoft Education Committee have put up a scheme to the Board which they cannot man with children?
    Mr. Lindsay: I cut out the word "man"—
    Mr. Tomlinson: Well, it is plain what I meant.
    Mr. Lindsay: It was a matter of grave doubt in connection with the original scheme—this matter arose two years ago —whether there would be a sufficient number of girls to fill the second school and now that it is quite clear that there will not be they have chosen the cheaper scheme.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I should like to clear up a misunderstanding, because —
    Mr. Speaker rose—

  RATES (EQUALISATION).
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, despite local rates being put up to a high level in certain working-class areas, it is still not possible for the authorities in these areas to supply health and other services on a basis comparable with those in richer areas at much lower rates, although the services are even more necessary in the poorer areas; and whether he will consider the advisability of steps to equalise rating burdens?
  Mr. Elliot: I fear that it would not be possible to deal with the first part of the question within the limits of a Parliamentary question and answer, though I must not be taken as accepting its implication. As regards the second part, I would remind the hon. Member that the block grant is distributed on a basis which takes into account conditions affecting the poorer areas, and is reviewed at regular intervals.
  Mr. Adams: Is the Minister aware that in many local authorities in County Durham the rates have reached 22s. in the £ and that thereby many necessary schemes are being held up?
  Sir H. Williams: Is he also aware that some of those local authorities are grossly extravagant and that they want extravagant subsidising?
  Hon Members: Which authorities?

  HOUSING (RENTS).
  Mr. J. Hallasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the widespread dissatisfaction existing among tenants of decontrolled working-class houses and the consequent action to obtain reduction of rents by the formation of tenants' defence leagues; and whether he is prepared to hold an inquiry into the question of excessive rentals?
  Mr. Elliot: I am aware that in one or two areas dissatisfaction has been expressed with the rents of decontrolled
  2624
  houses, but not that such dissatisfaction is widespread. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
  Mr. Hall: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that rent strikes are spreading because people are discovering that the only way to bring rents down to a proper level is to take action of that character, and would it not be advisable for the Government to take stops which would render such action unnecessary?
  Mr. Elliot: It is hoped that action will be taken in some cases by the local authorities.
  Sir Percy Harris: Will the right hon. Gentleman come down during the Recess to some of these areas to see the appalling houses and find out what rents are charged for them, and would that not be a profitable way for the right hon. Gentleman to spend his long Recess?
  Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these rent strikes are entirely spontaneous and, in view of the success attending similar strikes in other parts of London, would it not be well for the right hon. Gentleman to take action so as to obviate the need for further movements of that kind?

  MENTAL HOSPITAL, CHERTSEY (ACCIDENT).
  Mr. Grovesasked the Minister of Health whether he will inquire into the circumstances attending the accident to Gerald A. H. Wood, aged five, who was admitted on nth March to Botley's Park Colony, Chertsey, for treatment under the Mental Deficiency Acts, and who, on 23rd April, swallowed some ink and became seriously ill; and whether he will inquire why the superintendent of the institution declined to give any information to the parents as to why such fluid was in the child's reach?
  Mr. Elliot: I have made inquiries and my information is that on 23rd April, while being visited by his mother, this child fainted, and was ill for about 24 hours. He received immediate medical attention. It was suggested by another patient in the same villa that the child had swallowed ink, and although there was no evidence of this, such as staining of the lips or mouth, careful examination and laboratory tests were made. These

  2625
  established that the child had not swallowed ink. The position was fully explained to the parents.

  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (COUNTY DURHAM).
  Mr. Leslieasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the number of persons in receipt of relief in the county of Durham last year was the highest in Britain, namely, 57,204, and the estimated cost of public assistance for 1940 is £1,687,508; and what action the Government contemplate taking to relieve this distressed area of this heavy burden?
  Mr. Elliot: I am aware of the position generally in relation to public assistance in the County of Durham. As regards the last part of the question, I would remind the hon. Member that the block grant is distributed on a basis which provides substantial relief to the finances of the necessitous areas.
  Mr. Leslie: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the block grant is not sufficient in a case like this, and that public assistance in Durham is costing 10s. 5d. in the £ while a rich borough like Bournemouth can escape with 10½d.;and is this not a case for the equalisation of rates?
  Mr. Elliot: The relief afforded by the block grant in England and Wales as a whole is 3s. and the relief afforded in County Durham is 11s.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will state the purpose of the suspension of the Eleven o'CIock rule to-day; and, further, the business which is to be taken when the House reassembles on 3rd October?
The Prime Minister: We are proposing to suspend the Eleven o'Clock rule in order to consider Lords Amendments to the British Overseas Airways Bill which I except will be received from another place. It is proposed to take the Amendments after the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill. I am informed that the Amendments are either of a drafting character or relate to points which were raised during the consideration of the
2626
Bill in this House. The business of the House in the week after the House reassembles will be:
Tuesday, 3rd October: Committee stage of the British Shipping (Assistance) Bill.
Wednesday, 4th October, Thursday, 5th October, and Friday, 6thOctober: Report and Third Reading of the Criminal Justice Bill.
During the week progress will be made with other business, including Motions to approve outstanding Import Duties Orders.
Mr. Greenwood: Is it intended to complete the Committee stage of the British Shipping (Assistance) Bill in one day? If so, I must enter my protest now. I understand that a good many Amendments will have to be considered. May I put also another point to the right hon. Gentleman? Assuming that the situation does not require the calling together of the House earlier, but that the situation is serious on 3rd October, is it understood that the business for the week, and especially for the day when we return, will depend upon the international situation?
The Prime Minister: In regard to the first of the right hon. Gentleman's questions, I do not wish to make any rigid suggestions at this time. We must see how we get on with the Committee stage. In regard to the second question, of course, if there were a serious situation the business might have to be altered, and would be altered.
Mr. Benn: Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to the Import Duties Orders, and to the fact that it was intended that an affirmative Resolution of the House should be passed within a certain number of days, save when the House was not sitting; and that now this Advisory Committee is making an Order which is to be operative for two months without giving the House any opportunity of expressing its opinion upon what is a taxation matter?
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows that the House very often desires to debate these Orders before Eleven o'CIock. There simply has not been time to get that in.
Mr. Gallacher: Would it be possible for the Government to find some time for my Bill dealing with the avoidance of corruption, in view of the unanimous support which was given to the principle of the Bill?
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 147; Noes, 97.

Division No. 295.]

AYES.

[3.51 p.m.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Everard, Sir William Lindsay

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's)

Fildes, Sir H.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Patrick, C. M.

Apsley, Lord

Furness, S. N,

Peake, O.

Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Gluckstein, L H.

Peters, Dr. S. J.

Bernays, R. H.

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Grimston, R. V.

Pilkington, R.

Bossom, A. C.

Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

Pym, L. R.

Boyce, H. Leslie

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Bracken, B.

Hammersley, S. S.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Brabner, R. A.

Hannah, I. C.

Ramsbotham, Rt. Hon. H.

Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Higgs, W. F.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Bull, B. B.

Hopkinson, A.

Remer, J. R.

Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Rosbotham, Sir T.

Caine, G. R. Hall.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Hutchinson, G. C.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Carver, Major W. H.

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Salmon, Sir I.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Keeling. E. H

Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

Channon, H.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Samuel, M. R. A.

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Schuster, Sir G. E.

Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

Smithers, Sir W.

Clarry. Sir Reginald

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

Colville, Rt, Hon. John

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor)

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Leech, Sir J. W.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Cox, H. B. Trevor

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Crossley, A. C.

Lindsay, K. M.

Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Lipson, D. L.

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Culverwell, C. T.

Llewellin, Colonel J. J.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Davison, Sir W. H.

Looker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

De la Bère, R.

Loftus, P. C.

Thomas, J. P. L.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

Denville, Alfred

Macdonald. Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Train, Sir J.

Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Dower, Lieut.-Col. A. V. G.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Drewe, C.

Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R. J.

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Macquisten, F. A.

Warrender, Sir V.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Magnay, T.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Duggan, H. J.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Duncan, J. A. L.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Dunglass, Lord

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Nall, Sir J.

Captain Waterhouse and Mr. Munro.

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Day, H.

Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Dobbie, W.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Ede, J. C.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Ammon, C. G.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Hardie, Agnes

Banfield, J. W.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Harris, Sir P. A.

Batey, J.

Foot, D. M.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Gallacher, W.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Broad, F. A.

Gardner, B. W.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Garro Jones, G. M.

Hills, A. (Pontofract)

Cluse, W. S.

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Horabin, T. L.

Collindridge, F.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Jagger, J.

Daggar, G.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Dalton, H.

Grenfell, D. R.

John, W.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Lathan, G.

Lawson, J. J.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Tomlinson, G.

Lee, F.

Rothschild, J. A. de

Viant, S. P.

Leslie, J. R.

Sexton, T. M.

Walkden, A. G.

Lunn, W.

Shinwell, E.

Walker, J.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Silverman, S. S.

Watkins, F. C.

Maclean, N.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

Sloan, A.

White, H. Graham

Maxton, J.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

Montague, F.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Sorensen, R. W.

Wilmot, John

Paling, W.

Stephen, C.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Parkinson, J. A.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Wilson, C. H.(Attercliffe)

Pearson, A.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Thurtle, E.

Ritson, J.

Tinker, J. J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves.

Question put, and agreed to.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to, —
Senior Public Elementary Schools (Liverpool) Bill, without Amendment.
British Overseas Airways Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—
Folkestone Water Bill [Lords,]
London County Council (Improvements) Bill [Lords,]
Metropolitan Water Board Bill [Lords,] without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to consolidate with amendments certain enactments relating to water undertakings." [Water Undertakings Bill [Lords.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

  UNEMPLOYMENT.
  4.1p.m.
  Mr. George Hall: It is again necessary to raise the question of unemployment before we separate for the Summer Recess. I feel that we owe it to the 1,250,000 persons who are still unemployed and the millions of workers who feel much concerned about the security of their own employment. Many of these men have known what it is to be unemployed for long periods, and they realise that had it not been for the huge expenditure on armaments they would still be lining up at the exchanges drawing miserable amounts in benefits and allowances instead of getting wages from the pay office. Members of this House, irrespective of party, can join with the Minister in expressing gratification that the number of unemployed is falling considerably, but at the same time we see nothing remarkable about that fact. It is true that the numbers are falling and it is equally true that the expenditure on arms is increasing; and I am sure that the Minister would be the most surprised person in the country if unemployment did not fall at the present time. As a matter of fact one might ask him whether he knows of any country in the world where the expenditure on armaments per head of the population isas high as it is in this country, and where the unemployment figure is as high.
  While the unemployment figure is dropping this House must keep before it the fact that we still have 1,250,000 persons unemployed, or nearly one in 10 of the insured workers. The figure stands as high as it was in 1929 and only slightly lower than it was in 1937; but whereas in 1929 we were spending £110,000,000 on armaments, this year we are spending £750,000,000. Is the Minister surprised that the figure of unemployment is still 1,250,000? All he wants to do really is
  2680
  to go on spending hundreds of millions more, to call up the reservists and a few more groups of militiamen, to adopt the Hitler methods, and the numbers will then drop still further. But that does not solve the problem of unemployment. It is to us surprising how the prospect of 1,250,000 unemployed men is being regarded as something that is normal. In fact many of the newspapers and many industrialists are talking of a shortage of labour. What we would like to do is to remind those people who regard that figure as normal that it is twice as high as what was regarded as the normal figure in pre-war days. But that figure in itself is serious enough, for here we have in this country, with this huge expenditure, still 1,250,000 homes with some members of the family unemployed. Some hundreds of thousands of these men have been unemployed for years, some for six or seven years and even 10 years, men and women who are old not through hard work but. through the misery and sorrow and suffering of trying to exist on unemployment pay or allowances. These men see their wives and children suffering untold hardship, and they have the feeling that there is no niche in the world for them. They are what can be called unwanted men. The Minister himself recently objected to that term being used. He may not take it from us, so I would like to quote from a leading article which appeared in the "Times" quite recently dealing with this problem. The article probably puts it very much more clearly than I can. The article states:
  "The cry of the long unemployed is the cry of the wastage and neglected manhood and womanhood. Not only men and women but youths have been tossed on to the industrial scrap-heap, as though they were of no more industrial value than an unwanted and unnecessary machine, whereas they remain integral parts of the social and political organism. They are —it is repetition to say so again —a liability when they ought to be an asset, a charge on the community in which they ought to be producers. Our unemployment is becoming a universal reproach; the figures are misrepresented and the facts distorted. No amount of truthful explanation will disarm the gibe heard in the countries of dictatorship that the vaunted superiority of a democracy is an empty boast so long as it has its distressed areas and a million and a half or more registered unemployed. It is not the distortion of fact and argument that rankles, but the apprehension that what might be done and ought to be done for the unemployed —and especially now —is left undone."

  2681
  Those of us who come from the Special Areas agree entirely with that statement. At this point let me emphasise a request which was put by my hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey). Here is the nation passing through a period of seeming prosperity. The unemployment figures are lower than they have been for 10 years. Those who are the long-term unemployed are suffering great hardships. There are nearly 500,000 men still coming under the operation or under the control of the Unemployment Assistance Board. I ask the Minister whether now he and the Government will consider withdrawing the operation of the means test. This subject has not appeared so much in our Debates in recent times, but let me assure the right hon. Gentleman that it has not been forgotten. The men and women who suffer under the operation of the means test cannot forgive the Minister or the Prime Minister and the Government for imposing the test. A letter was recently received by a well-known church dignitary from a group of unemployed men. I do not know that anyone in the House could put the position more clearly or better than they put it. Probably they received some assistance in the writing of the letter, but it is a letter worth reading. They say:
  "Believe me, Sir, we do not wish to be selfish. Ten years of grinding poverty and of oppression of soul have taught us, we hope, to feel for fellow sufferers the world over. We are only 1,000 or 2,000 out of over 1,000,000 at home in like distress. In the circumstances which confront us, with the best will in the world we cannot make two ends meet. This inability to pay our way puts us into an unbearable position, which has now lasted for years. We have to learn to be lazy so that we can do with less food and fewer boots; learn to be selfish and not do a hand's turn for our womenfolk that might risk the loss of the dole; learn to be thriftless that we may not hand over our savings when the means test comes along. We are forced into something that comes perilously near a double life, which makes us feel like sneaks and cadgers; for we must supplement our allowances to live, and there is no means of doing it which is open, honourable and above-board and recognised by the authorities. Nearly all of us are in debt, all are half-starved, all are weighed down by our present degradation and by the nightmare of what will happen if this goes on."
  I do not know that anything more apt could be put to this House. That letter aptly describes the condition of nearly half a million people in this country at a time when the productive capacity of
  2682
  the nation is higher than it has even been before, when there is an excess of profits and when there should be no shortage of everything that the people require.
  But let me remind hon. Members that the operation of the means test takes into consideration, in the homes of the men who come under the Unemployment Assistance Board, not only the wages referred to by the hon. Member for Spennymoor, but—how many hon. Members realise this? —the old age pension, the widow's pension, orphan's pensions and blind person's pension, and takes these into consideration in reducing the allowance of certain members of the family who have been unemployed for periods often as long as six or nine months. The same can be said of disability and dependants' pensions. Where local authorities are regarded as being a little more generous than other local authorities in paying public assistance relief, then even public assistance relief is taken into consideration, and workmen's compensation, national health insurance benefit, Service dependants' pensions, and, what is worst of all, dependants allowances granted by a police court, and affiliation orders. Can the Minister or the Government be proud of a system which will take those items into consideration for the purpose of reducing the allowance that an unemployed man shall have from the State because it is impossible for him to obtain work?
  I beg the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider this matter. The State may save £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 a year by the operation of the means test. Almost the whole of that sum is wiped out by the expenditure of the inquisition which is going on in the homes of these men and women—men and women, as I know personally and as most of us know, who are as good as I am myself or as good as any other Member of this House. In my division 65 per cent. of these men are over 45 years of age. Many of them have given 30, 35, or 40 years of their lives in wealth production for the nation. It is unfair for them to be treated in this way. I ask the Minister to take the matter into consideration.
  We also say, with regard to the general position, that because unemployment is falling the Minister must not continue his complacency. I say without hesitation that the right hon. Gentleman and his

  2683
  Department have done very little to reduce the number of unemployed to the figure at which it stands to-day. Everyone knows the reason for this fall. The State is borrowing, the State is spending, the State is employing. That is the reason. It is not because the Government wanted to reduce the figures. In fact, it is contrary to Tory policy to spend large sums of public money in order to deal with unemployment. The Government have been forced into this position through their stupid foreign policy, and now they have been forced into a programme which involves State spending. The Minister, so far as I know, has not given us any estimate of the number of persons employed as a result of this policy of rearmament. He is reluctant to admit that it has any important bearing on unemployment. In his speech on 30th June, he said that there was a gain in general employment as a result of this "feverish rearmament." I am sure his advisers have kept him informed as to what this spending of public money will mean. It is surprising how the economists' predictions have been confirmed. I remember an article in the "Times," I think in April, in which it was suggested that if the State borrowed £200,000,000 or £250,000,000 there was a possibility of a fall in the unemployment figures to about 800,000.
  Even this figure does not give the full picture. There are many more employed in the production of defence materials of all kinds. I have seen the figure of 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 mentioned as the number of persons directly employed, and if the persons employed in producing coal, steel and all the other materials necessary for armament manufacture are also considered, it is suggested that they would number another 2,750,000 bringing the figure up to 5,000,000. We have seen in the Special Areas some evidence of this expenditure. It is said that £160,000,000 has been spent in this way. Quite frankly, I do not regard that £160,000,000 as being over-generous. It is just one-fifth of the expenditure this year. In South Wales, something like 20,000 persons are employed in the construction of the various armament works. These men know that they are employed for a short time, until the construction is completed, and that then they will be turned out. What I have
  2684
  said about South Wales can be said about the Clyde and other parts of the country. It is suggested that if this work is sudenly stopped at least 3,000,000 to 3,500,000 persons would lose their jobs within a short time. We are starting off, not with what may be regarded as a very few people unemployed, but with 1,250,000 persons unemployed, plus those who will be thrown out of employment as a result of the stopping of this work. That is the position not only here but in other countries. Industry in every country in Europe, at any rate, is mobilised on a war basis. The world might almost be described as a great war factory.
  The Government must know that this cannot continue much longer. I think it is true to say that neither the Minister nor hon. Members on this side desire it to continue. We all desire a speedy end to this international tension, and we are looking forward to the prospect of a settled position. I doubt whether, in the absence of war, this state of things can go on for another year. It is no use the Minister suggesting, as he did in his speech on 30th June, that hon. Members were more concerned about speculating as to what would happen in two and a half years' time than about what was happening now. We are concerned about both. Every unemployed man struck off the register because he has obtained work is a cause for rejoicing, but that rejoicing is relative to the stability and permanence of his employment. The Minister must know that much of this work is neither stable nor permanent. When armament work ceases the economic depression will be staggering. We say that there are few things more urgently needed at the present time than for the Government to prepare plans for the transfer back from a war economy to a peace economy. Unless that is properly planned there will be a serious political upheaval.
  The attitude of the Government on this important matter has not yet been fully disclosed. We trust that the Minister is going to disclose the plans fully this afternoon. We trust that these plans are much more energetic than would appear to be the case from the references made by the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary in the last Debate. The Minister was content to say that
  "the coming of peace will release forces that will make, not for poverty, but for plenty."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th June, 1939; col. 881, Vol. 349.]

  2685
  while the Parliamentary Secretary said that when the present situation ended there would be a revival in ordinary civil and economic life. Is that all? We know that the Government have circularised local authorities asking them to prepare for carrying out certain works, and we are told that the construction of some large bridges is being postponed for the time being. If this is all that the Government have in mind, little or nothing will be done. If they cannot now manage an unemployment problem of 1,250,000, there is little hope of their managing a problem of the dimensions which are likely when this expenditure stops. We want someone with the imagination of the Secretary for Overseas Trade in the position of the Minister of Labour. It is rumoured that in order to liquidate the position in Germany the Secretary for Overseas Trade was prepared to consider a loan. I am not going to give the figure, because most Members have it in mind. If it is necessary to consider the question, even in the mind of a single Member of the Government, of a loan of anything like the magnitude which was referred to for that purpose, how much more important is it to consider the question of first dealing with our own problem at home, because we still believe that, while it is necessary to assist in increasing the volume of world trade, charity begins at home.
  The problem is not one that can be left to solve itself. We expect to hear what plans, if any, the Government have. Is there any method of planning, or is there any body which will have the authority to assist the Government in planning and which is capable of investigating this important question in all its aspects and submitting practical proposals for dealing with it? This matter is receiving not only the active consideration of the political party to which I have the honour to belong and of the political party below the Gangway but of the Trades Union Congress, a deputation from which recently met the Prime Minister and submitted a well-considered statement to him; and I know that the Federation of British Industries and the Association of Chambers of Commerce are also very much concerned. They have seen hundreds of thousands of men leaving some of our industries because of lack of employment, and, in many
  2686
  cases, because of reorganisation and rationalisation.
  I am very concerned about the coal industry. I come from a coal-mining area. There we have seen the number of men employed considerably reduced. During the last 10 to 14 years 412,000 men have left the industry, while during the same period nearly 200,000 workers have left the cotton industry and agriculture has lost 200,000, making a total for those three industries alone of 800,000 persons permanently displaced. We should like to know from the Minister of Labour what his intentions are with regard to the question of reviving our export trade. There is a considerable reduction in this direction. Again, I shall not give figures, because I am sure hon. Members are well acquainted with the tremendous reduction last year as compared with 1929. Notwithstanding the Ottawa Agreement, tariffs, trade agreements, and things of that kind, there has been this considerable fall. It was said of one nation that they had to export or die. That is truer of this nation than of any other. A nation which is so dependent on imported food and raw material must have a substantial export trade. Yet we have seen this trade declining, and little or no effort has been made by the Government to arrest the decline.
  Take two industries. In the coal industry we exported in 1929 60,000,000 tons from this country, and last year we exported 35,000,000 tons—a reduction of 25,000,000 tons. At the same time certain other European countries were increasing their exports of coal. I can say that I have seen in my lifetime the rise and the fall of the coal industry in South Wales. When I commenced work in 1892, as a lad of 12, coal output in South Wales amounted to 32,000,000 tons. Last year it was 33,000,000 tons. In the interval it had risen to 56,000,000 tons and fallen again. Unless the Government are going to do something with regard to the coal export trade there is very little prospect for the coal industry in South Wales, since 50 per cent. of its product is sold in foreign markets. Cotton is in much the same position. It is said that this country exported less cotton piece goods last year than in any year since 1850, not excepting the cotton famine and the Great War

  2687
  period. I should like to know what the Government have in mind with regard to the export markets in view of the methods adopted by certain other Governments. I know that hon. Members are acquainted with the German methods of obtaining export trade. I see the right hon. Gentleman smiling, and I do not know whether he is amused at what I have said.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I was not smiling at the hon. Gentleman but at an hon. Member behind him.
  Mr. Hall: The question of the export trade should be taken quite seriously. This year we are just keeping apace with last year, when our export trade was down considerably compared with what it was the year before. As long as this nation has a population as large as it is at the present time, and industries such as it has, it will have to export, and everyone knows, and no one better than the right hon. Gentleman, the difficulties in the export markets at the present time. The Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department recently gave an interview in which he referred to the difficulties of British manufacturers in foreign markets through the subsidised competition of one particular nation, which I need not mention. He explained their methods of business. He stated that the customer was asked the price he had been quoted by a British manufacturer, and he was then offered goods—I am not arguing whether they were of the same quality as British goods—at 25 per cent. below the cost of the British goods. That gives an idea of the difficulties in the export markets at the present time. Will not the competition in the export markets be considerably intensified when the arms expenditure not only of this country but of other countries comes to be liquidated? We are competing with a nation which is treating its export trade seriously. It has a controlled or manipulated currency, and it can put the whole strength of the nation behind the sale of any article or number of articles and can compete successfully with almost any other country in regard to similar articles. There are low-wage rates, and the workpeople have to work long hours. It is impossible to compete with such a country unless the
  2688
  Government wake up and deal with this important matter.
  What plans have the Government to deal with this question? In this country, owing to the skill and workmanship of our workers, we are able to produce in every industry more goods of a higher quality than ever before, and with the use of the machine the output of every commodity is increasing to such an extent that, apart from armaments, the possibility of converting these products into money becomes more difficult. The worker must not be driven lower into wage servitude and unemployment. Not only do we look to the export trade, but to the Government to assist in providing employment at the end of the armaments race. Public works may assist, but they will not solve the problem. One might ask the right hon. Gentleman what steps are to be taken? One could mention many schemes which have already been put up in this country.
  My hon. Friends from mining areas were very surprised at the reply given by the Secretary for Mines yesterday with regard to the Government scheme for dealing with the position of the distribution of oil and petrol in the event of emergency. There is absolutely no reason at all for the Government to depend almost entirely upon the import of these very valuable commodities. We do not —and it is as well that it should be stated quite clearly in this House—accept the report of the Falmouth Committee as being the last word upon this committee. The Falmouth Committee certainly examined certain aspects of the matter, but we were not allowed to examine certain of the evidence that was submitted to them because we were told that it was secret. I and some of my hon. Friends went into this matter almost at the same time. We spent some three or four months considering this very important question, and we also published a report, which, from what I have heard, has been received as being a fair summary of the whole position. We are told that the production of oil from coal is an uneconomic proposition. It all depends when the oil and petrol are required. During the last War the Admiralty had to pay £30 per ton for fuel oil, and petrol was sold in London in 1926 at 4s. 6d. a gallon. If the price of fuel oil and petrol reaches half that amount, or if it is even less than

  2689
  half, it would pay the Government to consider seriously the question of setting up plants for the production of oil from coal. Germany has had no hesitation at all about doing it. Last year Germany produced 1,700,000 tons of synthetic oils, all as the result of the production of oil from coal, and at the present time they are producing at the rate of 60,000 tons of crude oil per month, and are still constructing plants for the purpose of extending that output.
  There is the question of calcium car-bide, and of afforestation. All these matters have been discussed ad lib in this House, and nothing very much has been done. I am not satisfied that the Forestry Commissioners are doing all that they might do in this country. While it is true that they own something like 1,000,000 acres of land in this country, only about 400,000 acres have been planted. The expenditure has been less than £10,000,000, in the last 20 years, whereas last year we imported £67,000,000 worth of timber, and there are millions of acres of land in this country suitable for purposes of this kind.
  It may be argued that the schemes which we put forward are uneconomic. They may be uneconomic, but is it not in the interests of the nation that we should have petrol and oil, carbide and timber, not only to meet the demand in wartime but also in peacetime? Can the heavy expenditure on arms be regarded as economic? It is necessary in the interests of the nation, no doubt, but it must be remembered that many of the munition works and shadow factories which are being put up at the present time will be worked for only a very short time and then be closed down until the emergency arises. We do not ask for works for purposes of that kind. The Government should consider the establishment of works which will provide employment for the people of this country during peacetime as well as wartime. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his Department and the Government have learnt nothing as the result of the experience of liquidating the position after the last War?
  The right hon. Gentleman replied to a question which I put to him on Tuesday of this week in which he disclosed the fact that from 1922 until last year we spent
  2690
  in this country on unemployment benefit alone £1,300,000,000. All this money has been spent not only to keep men and women alive, but also to keep them in idleness. All of them would prefer work to idleness. Not only have we spent this amount of money on paying benefit in this way, but from 1923 until the end of last year no fewer than 8,400 million man-days were lost as a result of unemployment. If one wanted to do a little arithmetic one could work out the loss of wealth to this nation as the result of this colossal loss of working time. It is estimated that the total number of working days lost by insured workers last year was 4,200 million. Based upon that figure, the loss to the State is equal to the loss of two years work on the part of every insured person in this country at the present time. If every insured person in this country re-frained from working for the next two years the nation would lose as much as it has lost in unemployment benefit. There is no wonder that we are concerned about this situation. We are concerned as to what will happen when the slump comes. Remedies so far adopted to deal with this problem have failed lamentably to meet the situation.
  We are satisfied that the Government have not any positive proposals to deal with this question. That is why the Trades Union Congress and the Labour Party press that a new approach should be made to this problem. We suggest, as was suggested by the Trades Union Congress, that there should be a permanent committee appointed for the purpose of considering the present situation and planning ahead. Its members should be men of wide practical experience. The organisation should be in close consultation with representatives of the workers and the employers, and should be given very wide powers in connection with this question. It should have power to make specific proposals for separate industries, and should also be given the responsibility of pressing the Government to carry out its recommendations. There is nothing novel in anything of this kind. Hon. Members should note the organisation necessary for the purposes of defence. We have the Committee of Imperial Defence, the Ministry for the Co-ordination of Defence and the Ministry of Supply, and we also have the three specialist services of

  2691
  the Board of Admiralty, the Army Council, and the Air Council.
  All these different organisation are looking to the future and preparing for an emergency which all of us trust will never happen, and yet, when we come to the problem of dealing with the vital question of unemployment, we have only the Economic Advisory Council, which consists of eminent people, but very few people know what they do. We have seen very little evidence of their work, and we believe that a body much more active than the present Economic Advisory Council should deal with this problem. Such a body as I have suggested should be given the continuous job of making a careful and detailed investigation into the unemployment problem in all its aspects and drawing up and submitting practical proposals for dealing with the situation, whether the cause of unemployment is the result of difficulties in the export trade or the result of the difficulty of providing work in this country. Such a body would be able to advise on every aspect of trade and trade prospects both at home and abroad, and also to deal with the question of public works, the loaning of money at low rates of interest, or at no interest at all, to local authorities to carry out their works, and on the necessity of establishing, if possible, a colossal fund to deal with possible slumps. It may be said that such a body is working very well in Sweden and Finland. Our problem is very much greater than theirs. Such a body could also deal with shorter hours and retiring pensions. All matters of that kind could be referred to it.
  These proposals may seem a little premature, considering the present international situation, but if we escape war, as we all trust we shall, I feel sure that our industrial, economic and financial system will be very badly shaken, for there will be nothing to do but to liquidate this tremendous expenditure upon armaments. We think that unless it is prepared for and properly planned for, it must mean an unemployment army of at least 3,500,000 men, with much loss of trade and a financial stringency never before experienced in this country. I have no doubt that there will be an attempt made to drive the wage earners to accept lower wages and such a worsening of industrial conditions as must lead
  2692
  to innumerable industrial conflicts, as in 1920–21. We on these benches are of the opinion that it is only a new economic structure which can effectively deal with this problem, but we are not the Government. Therefore, we say to the Minister and to the Government that they should face up to this problem at once, and that there must be no delay. That is the reason why we are raising this question to-day.
  4.47 p.m.
  Mr. E. Brown:The hon. Member, who always speaks with great sincerity and ability, was much more concerned with the future than the present. That is an interesting fact for the Minister of Labour, and a heartening one. The hon. Member has raised a number of issues with which I should like to deal later, but, in the first place, hon. Members will probably like from me some account of the situation as it is now. We are dealing with the problem of unemployment not merely as it may be in a year or 18 months, or two years or 2½ years hence, but as it is now. The fact is that at the moment my Ministry is much more concerned with the problems involved in what the economists call full employment than in the problems of unemployment, as described by the hon. Member in the last portion of his speech.
  The facts of the last six months make it quite clear that by the autumn of this year we shall as a nation be facing the problem of full employment, as the theorists and economists call it, not in any theoretical sense but in a very practical sense, and when that situation arises I have no doubt whatever that a good many of the statements that I have made during the last four years in this House, and which have been passed over lightly or mocked at, will be brought home to the nation, when we find that we have jobs waiting for men who are not there to take them. [Hon. Members: "Oh!"] Yes, and if hon. Members will wait I will give them facts, I should like to be allowed to make a connected speech. The hon. Member has raised major issues in connection with the problems of the future. He said very little about the past, a little about the present, but much about the future. I want to put things in perspective in order that we may look at the unemployment problem as it faces us now and as it is likely to face us in the near future.
  Mr. E. J. Williams: Did the right hon. Gentleman anticipate when he made his statement four years ago that we were going to spend these enormous sums on rearmament?
  Mr. Brown: I did not say that I made the statement four years ago. I said during four years I have made innumerable speeches during that period, before and since the expenditure on armaments began. At the moment we are facing a situation which gives cause for thought among all Members of the House, and for one side of the House occasion for a considerable sense of gratification.
  Mr. Lawson: The right hon. Gentleman says that my hon. Friend talked about the future. He also talked about the present situation and the amount of unemployment now. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will pay attention to that.
  Mr. Brown: That is what I am doing. I am saying that I am much more concerned with that issue than I am concerned about the other. For the moment, let us see what are the facts as disclosed by the latest register count on the 10th July. That count gave us two landmarks. The first is that in July the employment figure was easily the highest ever recorded in this country's history. The second fact is that the unemployment figure is the lowest since 1929. The employment is 12,912,000 and the unemployment figure 1,256,000. Since the beginning of the year the increase in employment amounts to 833,000 and the decrease in the registered unemployed to 783,000. So steep a decline in unemployment between January and July has never before been recorded in the whole 16 years for which comparable figures are available.
  There is a 10 years story behind these figures. An analysis of the last 10 years will show that we are now in the midst of a movement, quite apart from the armaments movement, which is far bigger than any seasonal movement. Broadly speaking, the fact is that the fall of 783,000 in the numbers of unemployed between January and July is 450,000 greater than the normal decrease in the normal years when decreases have taken place in the 10 preceding years. That is a very remarkable fact, and although I do not want to be little the enormous
  2694
  effect on employment of the expenditure on armaments, it is not true to say that it is solely due to that. Six months ago when we were dealing with a registered total of unemployed of over 2,000,000, hon. Members were making very gloomy speeches and saying that we looked to be in an adverse trade cycle.
  Let me add one or two other facts. The distribution of the improvement is interesting. The distribution of the improvement is to be found in all areas and in the majority of industries. It is very interesting to me and to those hon. Members who come from the north-west part of the country, not from Durham or South Wales, to notice that the largest single reduction in unemployment is in the north-western area—a reduction of 131,561 since January. Seeing that that area has the second largest insured population, London having the largest, that is a very remarkable and encouraging fact to all those who come from that area.
  Mr. Lawson: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give all the figures. It is very important that there should be no false impression created.
  Mr. Brown: I agree. That is why both sides should be brought out. Hon. Members opposite are inclined to think that the side which they give is the only side. It is not the only side. There are two sides to every question, and as the hon. Member will have a chance of having some hours reflection on the figures which I am giving perhaps he will do me the courtesy and the kindness to see whether or not I make a full case.
  Mr. Lawson: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for interrupting him, but as this is a very serious subject, particularly to some of our areas, I want to balance the facts,
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member had waited he would have found that I have a whole series of figures. I was not intending to give the lot, but after what he has said I will give them. They deal with three things, the number of unemployment, the reduction since January, and the insured population. I am giving the whole picture.
  Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us, for the purpose of illustration, the number of workers who are employed on armaments production?
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows that it is not possible to do that. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Mr. E. Smith), who is connected with the engineering trade, will know the reasons for that. Many establishments which are doing work for the Government are also doing a large amount of private work and work on export orders. Because a man is employed on armaments this week he is not necessarily employed on armaments three months from now in that same works. I was in a particular works recently, where 14,000 are employed, and when I inquired what proportion of the work was for home trade, and what for export trade, I was told that in that works alone 40 per cent. was export trade. The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shin-well) knows perfectly well that that is only one illustration of the difficulty of giving round figures, as some people do, by calculating the total of firms engaged on armaments and assuming that all the employment is on contracts for the Government. As this is the fourth interruption, perhaps I may now be able to make my own speech.
  Mr. Shinwell: It is the cut and thrust of debate.
  Mr. Brown: My interpretation of the cut and thrust of debate is not that it should be a series of conversaziones.
  Mr. Speaker: It is not my idea of the cut and thrust of debate.
  Mr. Brown: I am always anxious to oblige hon. Members. The hon. Member who opened the Debate made a speech and I did not interrupt him, and I have tried in my speech to face the facts. If the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) had waited he would have got all the figures which bring out the facts. I was saying when I was first interrupted, that this improvement has taken place in all the areas, and that the largest improvement is in the north-western area. It must be said, however, that the north of the country and Wales still have a disproportionate share of unemployment. Nevertheless, giving due weight to that fact, all the areas have made considerable strides in the reduction of unemployment. That is also true of the industry. In nearly all the industries in the last six months there have been improvements.
  2696
  Some of them have shown very large reductions in unemployment.
  Here are some figures. London had an insured population of 3,170,670, when the last count of the Exchange, books took place in July, 1938. The number of unemployed in London in July this year was 174,798, and the reduction since January was 104,306. The South Eastern area has a total insured population of 1,388,800, the total number unemployed in July this year was 62,758, and the reduction since January, 81,997. in the South Western area the insured population in July last year was1,163,730 and the number unemployed in July of this year, 47,996. The reduction since January, 1939, is 54,674. In the Midlands the total insured population was 2,326,450, the number of unemployed in July was 142,303 and the reduction since January, 79,806. The North Eastern Area had an insured population of 1,636,950 in July last year, the number of unemployed in July was 132,108, and the reduction since January, 1939, is 98,809. The North Western area had an insured population of 2,340,020. The number of unemployed in July was 277,034 and the reduction since January has been 131,561. There are three more groups. The Northern group had an insured population of 886,140. There were 122,582 unemployed in July and the reduction since January, 1939, is 65,892.In Scotland the insured population last July was 1,637,940, the number of unemployed at the last count 190,516, and the reduction since January, 98,187. In Wales the insured population was 684,300, the number of unemployed in July, 106,329, and the reduction since January, 1939, 67,370. I think those figures are worth putting on record. [Interruption.] No, hon. Members have not seen these before; they are quite fresh. While unemployment remained largely concentrated in the Northern group of divisions and Wales, these areas still made very considerable strides in the reduction of their unemployment.
  With regard to industries, the facts are also very interesting. This is important, because the suggestion is made that the improvement is all due to defence work. [Hon. Members: "No! "] That is my impression, and I could find many Press cuttings to bear out what I have said.

  2697
  If the hon. Member agrees that that is not so, I am quite happy. The improvement in employment has been shared by all the main industries. In building, public works and contracting, unemployment fell between January and July by 157,480; in iron and steel, by 27,723; engineering, 31,250; cotton, 35,606; woollen and worsted, 18,441; shipbuilding, 7,319; coal mining, in spite of seasonal fluctuations, 7,684, while in the distributive trades dependent, largely, on the state of industry generally, there is a reduction of 72,540. These figures show that the nature of unemployment at this moment is to us of supreme importance if analyses such as the hon. Member was asking for are to be entered upon, because some of his supporters outside the House have argued recently that a high level of unemployment has persisted since 1921, and yet that this has not prevented periodical recurrences of temporary setbacks or slumps. That is a misunderstanding of the nature of post-war employment. The elements ought to be made quite clear. They are, first, short-period unemployment due to movements from job to job, to seasonal fluctuations and other such causes. This accounts for about 50 per cent. of present unemployment or rather over. Then there is long-period unemployment due to structural changes in industry or lack of personal skill or fitness, giving us in the long-term unemployed a hard core in all the areas, larger in unprosperous than in prosperous areas, but still there; and I beg Members in all parts of the House to give particular attention to that problem, for we shall all have to face it in the interests of the men concerned in the months ahead.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: We are always asking you to do so.
  Mr. Brown: I am asking hon. Members to do so.
  Mr. Davies: You are the Government.
  Mr. Brown: Hon Members can co-operate in the matter. The hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) made a most persuasive appeal, not on party lines at all, to face the facts of the situation. I am pointing out that it is necessary to face this fact of long-term unemployment because one of the principal reasons is the location of industry, and we have done much in that direction with regard to
  2698
  placing factories for Defence work in these areas. But there are still a large number of men, who, if they could be persuaded to move from an area where they are now unemployed, could find, and I have no doubt in the months ahead will be able to find in larger numbers of jobs, the happiness to which the hon. Member referred. We have also the problem of trade cycles.
  Mr. Kingsley Griffith: What is the hard core?
  Mr. Brown: At the end of my speech I will make a statement on long-term unemployment. It really is the problem to which I am trying by this preliminary analysis to lead the mind of the House. I am trying to clear the ground for the serious consideration of what will be the problem, not two years, but three months hence, for everyone concerned in Parliament and in the areas, whether industry means the leaders in production or the trade unions. It is necessary to say a word on this question of the trade cycle because the suggestion is made that, with a high level of unemployment, the temporary general set-back might be expected to disappear. It is probable that in the summer of 1937 the cyclical movement in unemployment had practically vanished. It reappeared in the last three months of that year and continued throughout the year 1938. It is possible that it still exists, but the effects have been offset largely by the improvement due to rearmament and Defence work. It is of the highest interest to notice that in April, 1939, the rate of unemployment among insured persons was only about 1 percent. above the corresponding figure for April, 1937. This analysis of unemployment goes some way to furnish an explanation to those who ask why the annual average has only once in 18 years fallen below the 10 per cent. level. The junior Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) knows that at the moment many orthodox economists take the view that when Defence work comes to an end it will leave behind it severe unemployment. [Interruption.] Neither can you rely on the heterodox economists, so we have to do our best to find a golden mean between orthodox and heterodox. I will not be drawn into judging that except to say that I have noticed some economists who appear to be both orthodox and heterodox. It depends on the subject with which they are dealing and on the canons

  2699
  of orthodoxy also. Apart from such special circumstances, like that of Defence work, it may be doubted whether trade depressions, when they occur, are likely to be more prolonged and severe than they used to be. The depression from 1929 to 1933 was due to special circumstances which are not likely to recur. Sir William Beveridge has pointed out that the engineering and cotton industries, being dependent on the export trade, led in the depression and were also the first to indicate the turn of the tide. I offer that as a little counterweight to the wholly gloomy forecast of the hon. Member for Aberdare as to the future with regard to the trade cycle.
  Let me come to long-term employment as the facts are now. It is shrinking. Our last returns show that of the total receiving benefit or allowances recorded as unemployed on 10th July, 258,000, or 23 per cent., have been unemployed for 12 months or more; 745,000, or 65 per cent., have been unemployed for less than six months; 635,000, or 56 percent., less than three months; and 506,000, or 44 per cent., less than six weeks. The peak of our more than 12 months unemployed was reached in May, 1933, with a figure of 483,000. So the House will see that not only is there a drop in the total figures, but also a very heavy drop, a heartening drop, in the long-term figure.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Is the drop in long-term unemployment absolute or relevant to the total army of unemployment?
  Mr. Brown: It is both. The answer depends on more than one factor. It depends on the total number of unemployed at a given moment and the number of short-term unemployed in that total. I have given the actual figures as the fairest way of making a comparison between six years ago and now.
  Mr. G. Hall: Will not the right hon. Gentleman consider all the applicants for unemployment assistance as mainly long-term unemployed, seeing that before they transfer to the Unemployment Assistance Board they must have had less than 30 weeks work during the previous two years?
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member will have a little patience he will find that the next set of figures deals with that
  2700
  question. When the Unemployment Assistance Board was started we were dealing on the average with 800,000 applicants. They were most of them long-term applicants, because they would have had to have six months unemployment before they came to the Board. The figures will show how the total of long-term unemployment has dropped. Instead of 800,000, the Board in July of last year were dealing with 519,845 applicants, and in July of this year it was a figure of 462,474. The House will see, therefore, the improvement that is going on and will realise that we are at last making a mark on the long-term unemployment problem. Let me come to the question which has been put to me regarding practical policy. I am not going over the old and familiar story of the efforts made by the Government, although I think the hon. Member opposite did us less than justice. To me the most interesting feature of the Debates in which I have taken part since I became Minister of Labour has been that for the last 18 months or so it is very rare—I am talking about practical suggestions which might be put into operation at once—that we have had any practical suggestions to deal with the problem.
  The hon. Member expressed some concern about the export trade. There, I think, he was less than fair to the Government. In dealing with the coal trade he quoted the total figures of 10 or 15 years ago as to the exports of coal and the figures of to-day, quite ignoring what the Government have done to hold the figure at which the exports stand now. He knows that at least in one section of the field direct action by the Government has been to the advantage of the coal exporting trade. The Government have done much by way of trade agreements.
  Mr. Shinwell: But you imposed tariffs before trade agreements were negotiated.
  Mr. Brown: That is not so, and I am surprised that any Member representing a seat in the north-east coalfields should belittle trade agreements. There was the agreement made with the Scandinavian countries.
  Mr. Shinwell: I am not belittling trade agreements, and I have always appreciated what the Government have done in connection with them, but I do say

  2701
  that prior to trade agreements being reached a considerable portion of our export trade was lost to us through the tariff policy of the Government.
  Mr. Brown: I do not agree with the hon. Member, and anyone who has studied the export trade in coal during the last 20 years knows that the causes of the decline are not so simple; they are much more fundamental and much more deep rooted, and have been stated from this Box by the Secretary for Mines, the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Labour over and over again. The fact is that by our trade agreements we have secured a regular and persistent proportion of the export trade, and it is a remarkable fact that out of an export trade gain between 1932 and 1937, of £180,000,000, a large proportion of the gains are with the countries where we have made successful trade agreements.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: That does not help South Wales.
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows that the South Wales problem is quite a different one, and he also knows that effort after effort has been made by the Government in coal negotiations with country after country to assist the South Wales export trade. The general policy as regards unemployment and the export trade was stated only three weeks ago by the President of the Board of Trade in a long speech, and I will not add to what he then said; but it is interesting to note that the hon. Member in urging his case on this point drew very largely from the statement made by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. The recession in 1937 was due to causes entirely outside this country; they were widespread over the world—international causes. The hon. Member has said that little has been done for the coal trade, and he adds to that the cotton trade. I can only think of a gibe made by a speaker some time ago to the effect that the Government have done more to help the coal and cotton trades than any other trades, and he wondered whether the position of these two industries might not be better than they are if there had not been this Government action. I do not share that view, but to bring a charge of inactivity against the Government in the realm of coal and cotton is surely a complete travesty of all that has hap-
  2702
  pened. The action which has been taken has not been popular in some quarters of the House, but the majority of the industries regard it as vital to the preservation of the present level of employment.
  The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street charged me with complacency and the Ministry with having done very little. I am not going to make a long speech about that, although I could do so. When the hon. Member was at the Ministry of Labour he had little constructive power. If he comes back to the Ministry at any future time he will find that he has much more constructive power, mostly in the sphere of training and transference where we do not get much help or information from Members on the other side of the House. The nation will need to meet the problem of the shortage of men in special crafts which will be undoubtedly acute in the autumn. The record of the past year has shown how much can be done in the realm of training without interfering with the standards and conditions which have been won by trade union organisation and general bargaining. We have now half a dozen different training centres, and at this moment there are getting on for 20,000 unemployed men in one or other of these centres getting reconditioning and a measure of skill, and all this constructive effort will, I am sure, have a great effect on the figures of long-term unemployment in five or ten years from now. To give a man who has no skill some skill puts him in an entirely different position in the labour market from that in which he was formerly. More than that, the work which has been done on the juvenile side by the co-operation of local authorities is a work which, I am sure, commands the highest admiration. There has been no complacency on the part of the Department, and our determination is to see that the standards won by co-operative action in the sphere of industry are not belittled, and that unemployed men have a chance to get skill and training so that they will be able to take the jobs which will be available.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Seeing that the professional classes in this country, the legal profession and journalists, and people of that kind, have their interests and conditions well safeguarded, can the Minister give an assurance that he will do all he

  2703
  can to safeguard the interests of the men and the organisations which may be affected by a policy of this kind?
  Mr. Brown: That has been our policy throughout. We have had regard all the time to the practical policy of placing men in industry, and we have tried to regulate the entry into training centres to meet the demand, not to overrun it. That is our policy.
  Mr. Alan Herbert: Can the Minister say whether his Department is providing work for lawyers and journalists?
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows that in the great multiplicity of the work of the Department there is always work for lawyers; indeed, I do not think you can find a sphere of life in which there is no work for the legal profession. While they appear to be always a butt for the wits they are popular persons on the whole.
  During recent weeks hon. Members will have noticed creeping into the columns of the newspapers references to something that is called "full employment," and I am anxious that the term should be properly understood. The other day, I met a workman who had been reading in the newspapers about full employment, and he put the practical problem in a simple way when he asked, "How can there be full employment if there are some unemployed?" It is that problem to which I want to direct the attention of the House. How far the demand for labour can be satisfied by the absorption of workers at present unemployed will depend upon the precise nature of the demand. The fact that the issue as to what full employment means is becoming a practical one is heartening, despite all the difficulties that are involved, for it means that there will be given to the long-term unemployed opportunities which they have not had in recent years. The question of the industrial position in relation to what is called full employment is a much more urgent, and even a more important, issue than the question of what may happen in a year's time or two years' time, for it is a problem which is at our very door.
  The problem of what the experts call "full employment" is engaging the earnest attention of all thoughtful citizens, because its implications are
  2704
  straight ahead of us, and because the question whether we have reached, or soon will reach, full employment is one that it is not easy to answer in any direct and simple way. Strictly speaking, there is no demand for labour in general and no supply of labour in general; instead, there is a great variety of demands for specific kinds of labour in specific places, which is a very different thing. These demands must be met by a great variety of supplies of labour. Each industry has its own particular need. Each man is a separate individual. [Interruption.] That may sound platitudinous, but, nevertheless, it is a question of daily bread, which is fundamental. There are three questions to be asked about an unemployed man. First, who is he?— which means, is he fully employable?—secondly, what has his craft been, if any, or has he ever had a craft? and thirdly—and this is vital nowadays in view of the disproportion of long-term unemployed in certain areas—where is he? Perhaps hon. Members will now realise that it was worth while for me to state that platitude, which represents the problem which all of us have to face if we are to do what hon. Members opposite ask us to do, that is, to find work for the long-term unemployed. These three questions—who, what and where?—are fundamental, and I will tell the House the reason. It is because, to-day, particular industries are encountering growing difficulties in getting certain specialised kinds of labour which they require badly, while, on the other hand, there are many industries in which no such difficulties have yet occurred. It is not a problem of the whole field, but a problem of half the field, and that makes the problem of where the man is an urgent one, and it makes for a much more sympathetic attitude on the part of those who can take factories to places in order to get the jobs to the men, and on the part of those who are concerned with getting the men to the jobs. That problem is more urgent than it has ever been before.
  During the past few months the expansion of employment has reduced the total number of unemployed to the figure to which I have already referred; but that gives rise to the question as to how far the demand for goods and services can be met by the continued absorption of those still registered as unemployed, or whether the point is being approached at which

  2705
  shortages of labour and increasing intensity of competition among employers in the labour market are likely to lead to a rising circle in terms of prices and competitive demands. At first sight it might appear that, with 1,250,000 workpeople registered as unemployed, there must be an ample reserve of labour to provide for further expansion, but that is not so, for a considerable proportion of this total represents workers who are having only short spells of absence from work, for example, while changing from job to job, or owing to machinery troubles or breakdowns, or other temporary causes. The House will also be aware that a considerable number of those registered as applicants for employment are not of good physique and have low industrial aptitude. The industrial panels of the Ministry of Labour, which examine voluntary applicants for training, are saddened every time they sit at having to refuse men for training for semi-skilled jobs because they think that, even if the men had training, they would not have the aptitude or fitness to take advantage of it.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Will the Minister give the percentage of persons examined who are unfit for the job?
  Mr. Brown: I could not give that figure without notice, but it applies to quite a large number. Many of these men are likely to have considerable difficulty in keeping in employment even in times of very good trade. Statistics arc not available which would enable any precise estimate to be given of the numbers in this category, but if the hon. Member would like to have an estimate of the probable normal minimum of unemployed at the present time, apart from long-term unemployed, I would hazard a tentative conclusion that it is about 700,000. However, the House will realise that the balance of 550,000 registered unemployed does not, having regard to fitness, aptitude and home position, represent labour immediately available for urgent additional requirements arising out of the ever more rapidly expanding defence programme. The employment and unemployment position varies widely in different industries, occupations and districts.
  Mr. Lawson: I notice that the right hon. Gentleman makes repeated and significant references to the numbers that will
  2706
  be normal in the autumn. What does that mean? Has it some relation to the Prime Minister's Bill?
  Mr. Brown: I am referring to the facts as they are already, and as they are known to anybody who has a thoughtful mind and who observes what is going on. The figures that were quoted by the hon. Member for Aberdare proved that what we are dealing with now is a big movement, and the prophecies which the hon. Member quoted from Mr. Keynes article in the "Times" in April last were only the forecasts of a man who examined the facts and probabilities, and gave an estimate. I am quoting the facts, and I hope that hon. Members will reflect on them when they appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  There is a group of industries, covering about 35 per cent. of the total numbers insured, and including over 50 per cent. of the total insured unemployed, in which the present rate of unemployment ranges from 10 per cent. in the pig iron and tinplate industry to 31.4 per cent. in public works contracting. On the other hand, there is a group of industries, covering about 28 per cent. of the insured population, but including only 14 per cent. of the insured unemployed, in which the rate of unemployment is very low, running from1.9 per cent. in tramway and omnibus services to 5.9 per cent. in the rubber trade. This latter group includes industries such as explosives, 2.7 per cent. of unemployment; electrical engineering, 3 per cent.; motors, aircraft, 3.8 per cent.; general engineering, 4.7 per cent., and chemicals, 5.1 per cent. Those industries are directly concerned with the Defence programme.
  Similarly, there are wide variations in the general rates of unemployment in particular administrative divisions. On 10th July, 1939, these ranged from 4.5 per cent. in the South-Western Division to 15.7 per cent. in Wales and Men-mouth. In the Southern areas extremely low rates of unemployment are found in the engineering and metal-working industries; for example, in the South western area, in general engineering the rate is only 1.8 per cent., and in motor and aircraft industry, it is only 1.9 per cent. These figures show that there are some industries and districts where there are still considerable reserves of unem-

  2707
  ployed workpeople, whereas in others they are rapidly approaching the point where the supplies of suitable workpeople are exhausted, and where there are marked shortages of certain types of skilled labour, such as in the engineering and metalworking industries, and even in the building industry. When hon. Members read expert articles by economists and others about full unemployment, I hope they will understand that, when discussing full unemployment they are not discussing a situation in which every man registered is at work on one day when the count is taken. In a group of industries where normally 1,250,000 are unemployed, there will be about 700,000 who would be registered for the short-term causes to which I have referred.
  The hon. Member for Aberdare raised a large number of issues in his speech, and I thought I should serve the House well if I tried to make a large survey. It is not easy for a Minister, or anyone else, speaking on this subject after all these years, to say anything fresh. There are two other matters with which I want to deal. First of all, I want to say something about the means test. I am sure that there is no Member of the House, least of all the Minister of Labour, who would under-estimate the suffering of the unemployed in these areas of long unemployment. I do not think any case has been made out for a general revision, and I feel sure that whatever alternatives hon. Members might have in their minds, they would not be able to arrive at a scheme, in peace time at any rate, where the problem of able-bodied relief could be dealt with apart from some test of need. This problem is 200 years old, and it is a most difficult problem. I think the solution we arrived at 3½ years ago has worked satisfactorily. [Interruption.] I was asked to give my view and the view of the Government, and I am doing so, quite frankly, and hon. Members can draw their own conclusions.
  The hon. Member for Aberdare spoke a great deal about the future, and asked what our plans are. I would ask the hon. Member not to be quite so sure that the transition will be as quick and sharp as he thinks. He will remember that after the War, the transition was not abrupt; on the contrary, it took over two years. I am aware that there was an element of
  2708
  public finance in that on account of the gratuities which the troops had, but nevertheless, there was not a sudden, cataclysmic unemployment, because it was not until 1921 that the House turned its attention to enlarging the unemployment insurance scheme to deal with that problem.
  In the second place, hon. Members overlook this fact. Whatever may be the result of the slackening of our rearmament effort when it comes, this, I think, will be certain. When that time comes we shall not be at the level of annually maintaining the total numbers that we were maintaining when the movement for rearmament started four years ago. That is an element which hon. Members are not taking into account. It will be a very important element, not only from the point of view of public finance but also from the point of view of industry and labour and replacement of equipment.
  Thirdly, I think that hon. Members opposite are not doing justice to themselves or to the country or to the problem, when they assume that if you stop a great Defence programme, you will necessarily have great unemployment, without allowing for other forces which may be at work. [Hon. Members: "What does that mean? "] It means this. The late Arthur Henderson spent a great part of his later days in labouring for disarmament. He would not have done that if he had thought that once we arrived at the period when there was no need to make any exertions for Defence all over the world, we would also get a period of intensified poverty and distress and unemployment. [Hon. Members: "Absurd."] When hon. Members make comments of that kind I would remind them that it is equally absurd on their part, not to put into the scale against general gloomy forecasts of what may happen, the fact that if and when we arrive at the stage when we can do those things, it will be because there is a feeling of confidence in the world. Only a feeling of confidence in the world will enable us to do those things, and, just as confidence is vital to private enterprise, so it is vital to world recovery and to the recovery of our export trade and of every kind of trade which is sensitive to world feeling.
  One of the difficulties of making theoretical plans to cover 18 months or two years ahead is the difficulty of arriv-

  2709
  ing at the proper counterpoise of different factors on one side and the other and estimating what we shall want and we shall not want in certain circumstances. I would only add this. It is true that the Trades Union Congress has made a statement. It is difficult for me to discuss it because it is a private document and all I know about it, except what I have learned confidentially, is what has appeared in the Press. But as the hon. Member opposite has alluded to it perhaps I may allude to it also. It is true that the Trades Union Congress sent a deputation to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I had the advantage of being present on that occasion. I will only say that the Prime Minister heard the case which was put by the deputation on the question of committees and plans and pointed out the great difficulties in the way of any plans such as was suggested. He said—and this has been reported in the Press—that there were certain points to which he would give consideration. There I must leave it, with just this further remark. I was in Salford the other day opening a new short-term training centre for semi-skilled men. This training is designed to fit men who have been a long time unemployed to meet new needs. It is designed to give them a chance and as I looked at the faces of those men I came to the conclusion that they were happy men. Although a Minister of Labour can never be a wholly happy man—he has to deal with too many sad and difficult problems and carry too many burdens—nevertheless I can say at this moment that I am a happy Minister.
  Mr. Batey: On a point of Order. This Debate has now lasted for an hour and 50 minutes and we have had only two speeches. On the last occasion when the subject of unemployment was under discussion only two back-bench Members on this side of the House got into the Debate. It seems to me that, to-day, we shall not do much better if things are to go on in this way. As a general rule, when we are coming towards the end of a Debate and a number of Members want to intervene, Members are given to understand that they will only be called provided they promise not to occupy too much time. May I suggest that instead of waiting until near the end of the Debate that course should be taken at the beginning of the
  2710
  Debate? Otherwise, it is very unfair to hon. Members who wish to speak.
  5.51 p.m.
  Mr, Dingle Foot: I find myself to a certain extent in sympathy with the point raised by the hon. Member for Spenny-moor (Mr. Batey). Let me console him by saying that I will endeavour to bear it in mind. It seems to me that there is an "end of the Session" atmosphere about this Debate, and about the speech which we have just heard. We are all conscious of a sense of impending release. We know that the Minister of Labour is indefatigable, but I believe that even he is looking forward to the time when he will be able to retreat to some Ministerial haven where the Manders cease from troubling, and the Shinwells are at rest. I have always understood, however, that one purpose of the Parliamentary Recess in the summer was to enable Ministers of the Crown to have an interval for reflection and meditation. I hope that during the coming Recess, whether it be short or long, the Minister of Labour will ponder deeply on some of the matters which have been raised in this Debate.
  I hope he will reconsider what he has said on the subject of the means test and also that he will consider what was said by the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) on the subject of the means test and old age pensions. I do not propose to deal with that question at any length, but we understand that a Cabinet Committee is to reconsider the question of old age pensions and one aspect of the problem which comes within the province of the Minister of Labour is the extent to which old age pensions are taken into account for means test purposes. It has always seemed an anomaly that when a person who has been compelled to contribute to a pension fund for many years reaches the age of 65, his pension should, be taken into account in assessing the unemployment allowance due to some other member of his household. It means, in effect, that he is no better off or at any rate his household is no better off on account of the contributions which he has paid. That is one of the matters which I hope the Cabinet and the Minister will consider during the Recess.
  Then, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will also give some consideration to the position of those distressed areas which

  2711
  are not scheduled as Special Areas in the Act. The public have not realised how selective and arbitrary has been the Special Areas policy of the Government. I do not think that is always realised even in this House. I do not think the House did itself much credit on Tuesday last, when a reply was given by the Secretary of State for Scotland on the subject of the Government's plans for the Highlands and Islands. This is the most distressed area in the whole country. There is a higher percentage of unemployment in the Highland counties than in any scheduled Special Area with, perhaps, one exception. If the statement which was made on that occasion had been made about the scheduled Special Areas, it would have been received with the greatest interest. Because it happened to be about this remote area of the Highlands and Islands, the problems of which are not realised by most hon. Members, it was received with something approaching derision and certainly with a great deal of impatience.
  Many hon. Members will recall that when the first Special Areas Bill was introduced in 1934 by the right hon. Gentleman who is now President of the Board of Trade, he told us that it was only an experiment which we might expect to see extended to other areas. It was pointed out to him then, and I think he appreciated it, that these areas were bound to change as time went on. We urged him to put into the Bill machinery which would enable us to adapt the Act to those changes as they come about and enable the boundaries of the areas to be readjusted as the need arose. The Government refused to do so, then, just as they refused when the second Measure was carried in 1937, and in each case the hands of the House were tied by a Money Resolution which had been deliberately drawn with the utmost particularity. We all know that the precise situation which was forecast in 1934 has occurred and that there are many areas suffering from a heavier percentage of unemployment than some of the scheduled Special Areas. That fact was expressed the other day with a good deal of force by Sir Steven Bilsland as reported in the "Times" on 20th July:
  " The promotion of industrial estates under the Special Areas legislation was an experiment which has proved valuable. Since the limits of the Special Areas were fixed in
  2712
  Scotland eight years ago, however, there has been a considerable change in the state of employment throughout the country and certain areas outside the Special Areas are as much in need of assistance as the Special Areas themselves. I hope that as a result of the Report of the Royal Commission on the distribution of the industrial population, it will be possible to extend the facilities which the Special Areas enjoy, such as the provision of industrial estates, to other areas in need of them."
  I do not want to weary the House with any more statistics, but I think I might remind hon. Members of the percentages of unemployment in certain areas inside the Special Areas Schedule compared with other areas which are outside the Schedule. I have taken these instances not entirely but almost at random. To take some of the areas outside the Schedule, I will mention that in Dundee the percentage in June—the last available figure—was 15.8, and in Glasgow 14.4, while at the other end of the country in Stornaway, it was 41.4. Coming south of the Border we find that in Middlesbrough it was 14.1 and in Anglesey 32.9. Even in the Camborne and Redruth area, a tin-mining area, it was 17.7. I agree that those percentages vary widely, but compare them with the figures for some of the scheduled Special Areas—Renfrew, 13.4; Dumbarton, 10.2; Bathgate, 8.8; and West Calder, 8.7. Those are not the only examples which I could give. Those are four areas selected almost at random from Scotland. No one suggests that assistance should not be given to those areas, but it becomes clearer daily that there are other areas which are far more in need of assistance at present. The Minister of Labour gave many statistics to show the fall in the volume of unemployment over the whole country and suggested that before long we should be in the position of having almost a shortage of labour. At any rate, he thought we should very largely eat into the existing reserve of labour. That may be true, if you take a picture over the whole country, but it seems to me that that can scarcely apply to the sort of areas which I am now discussing. There you have an entirely different problem, and even if we have the improvement that the Minister anticipates, everyone knows that we shall still have in those areas a very high level of unemployment left behind
  Many of us are aware that the Special Areas Acts have actually been to the detri-

  2713
  ment of some of the districts outside the Special Areas, because when you get a trading estate in a certain area where these exceptional advantages are offered, it is bound to act as a kind of pool into which all the new enterprise in the district will be drained. Nobody objects to the advantages given on the trading estates in the Special Areas, except when it is at the expense of other areas with higher unemployment and more acute industrial trouble, and that is what is happening at the present time. I have mentioned my own constituency, where we have a higher level of unemployment than many areas in Scotland scheduled as Special Areas, and yet we have information of some concerns which would have set up within our boundaries but which were drawn away by the facilities offered at Hillingdon. That is not peculiar to Scotland. The same thing, I imagine, must occur wherever you get a trading estate within a reasonable distance of some area which is not a Special Area, but where the unemployment figures are high. We were told in 1937 that something was going to be done for these areas through the means of Sections 5 and 6 of the 1937 Act. The Minister knows that those Sections have been a dead letter. The only site company which has been formed under them is the Lancashire site company, and I think I am right in saying that so far no single factory has been set up by that company, so that as a result of two years working of the 1937 Act not a single new factory has been set up in any of the areas outside the scheduled Special Areas.
  I know I shall be told that a Bill has been tabled and that we have been promised by the Government that it shall be dealt with and passed into law before the end of the present Session. There are just two comments that I would make about that. Firstly, I think it is legitimate to draw attention to the intolerable delay in producing this Bill. After all, this is not a new problem. For years and years hon. Members above the Gangway here, on these benches, and in other parts of the House have been drawing attention to this discrepancy between the two classes of areas, and we were given an undertaking at last, after, as I say, years of pressure and agitation, on 14th November last year. If my memory serves me, it was during the Debate on the Address,
  2714
  and we were told that this legislation was going to be introduced. There has been a whole series of questions put in this House, a great many by the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), some by myself, and others by other hon. Members, and we have been put off and put off, and at last the Bill is printed and made available to Members on 2nd August. Really, it is an amazing thing that there should be that almost interminable delay in dealing with a very urgent unemployment problem. I do not say that necessarily the fault lies with the Minister of Labour himself, but I do say that the fault must lie with the Government as a whole. It is not a very complicated Bill. In fact, it is a perfectly simple Measure, and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, if he is going to reply, to give us some explanation as to why it has taken all these long months to produce so modest a Bill.
  I hope, too, that the Minister during his meditations in the Recess will reflect on this Bill and see whether he cannot give us a somewhat more extensive Measure, because even if this Bill were placed on the Statute Book, we should have the greatest difficulty in competing with the advantages offered in the trading estates in the Special Areas, because this Bill provides only for loan facilities. On the trading estates they are offered a great deal more than loan facilities, and we shall still have this difficulty as long as you confine these peculiar advantages to certain districts of the country selected in a perfectly arbitrary fashion.
  I would like now to refer to the particular difficulty of my own constituency. Some reference was made to the fiscal policy of the Government. In 1932 we revised the fiscal policy of this country, and that was bound to have two results. It was bound to give a certain stimulus to the industries dependent on the home market, and, on the other hand, it was bound to prevent the recovery to its old level of the export trade. In fact, both those things have come about, but the President of the Board of Trade, whom I see in his place, knows very well that the constituency that I represent has been put in a peculiar difficulty, because it gets all the drawbacks of the present system and none of the advantages. I will not discuss that now at any length, because in any case the position is to

  2715
  continue for the next three years, and his hands are tied.
  Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Is the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) not a little ungrateful to the Government, which, I understand, purchased millions of sandbags from that town when they Gould have got them at a far lower price elsewhere?
  Mr. Foot: I was saying that we are in a position of quite peculiar difficulty, which is not paralleled in any other part of the country, as the President of the Board of Trade knows, and in those circumstances I think we have a certain claim for consideration by the Government. We have received that consideration, as I freely admit, in the matter of sandbags, from the Home Office, and I only regret that not all the Government Departments have followed the example of the Home Office in that respect. I refer particularly to the Post Office. It is true of the jute industry as it is true of many other industries, that at present a certain number of people are being kept in work by these war preparations, but if you were to remove those orders for sandbags, there would be very little business being done at all. After all, this is something that we hope will last only a short time, and certainly it cannot last for ever. In the circumstances which I have outlined, I think we have a case for assistance in the matter of new industries, and I would ask for the good offices of the President of the Board of Trade, as well as of other Departments, in considering our claims in that respect, so that we shall not always be so entirely dependent upon a single industry and an industry whose future, to say the least of it, is precarious.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour fired a great many figures at us in this Debate. He is, if I may so put it, a kind of Ministerial Bren gun. The Bren gun, as I understand, fires some 720 shots a minute, and I am always reminded of that performance when I hear the Minister of Labour analysing the figures of the unemployed. Most of us can only take refuge until the barrage is over, but I was rather disappointed that the Minister cut short the last part of his speech, because he has been asked a good deal about the future plans of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman
  2716
  always displays a wide knowledge of the Scriptures, but I always think that he sticks too faithfully to the scriptural adjuration about taking no thought for the morrow.
  Mr. E, Brown: "Be not anxious for the morrow."
  Mr. Foot: The right hon. Gentleman certainly displays no undue anxiety. Some of us are not able to share his optimism in this respect, and we think that one of his duties is to take some thought for the morrow in the matter of unemployment. He told us practically nothing about the long-term plans of the Government. I should like to give the House one quotation from the speech that I quoted a moment ago by Sir Stephen Bilsland, when he said:
  " We must not be blinded by the wholly artificial activity at the present time, and we must prepare for the inevitable reaction when that activity begins to decline."
  That was from an authority which I think the Minister is not likely to dispute. As I say, we have been told practically nothing about what the Government intend to do when that activity does begin to decline. The hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate referred to the example of the Scandinavian countries, and I think it is relevant to take into account the example of Sweden, where already they have plans prepared for an expenditure on public works amounting, I think, to £140,000,000 in value, which are ready to be put into operation as soon as the industrial decline begins to show itself. As far as any private Member of this House is aware, no such plans and no such preparations have taken place in this country. I think there ought to be a planning authority, as the hon. Member said, and I hope the Minister will consider further these problems. I hope that we shall return on3rd October, but whenever it may be, I hope we shall not merely be met with a barrage of figures and statistics, proving very little, but that we shall be told what are the long-term plans which the Government have formed to provide for the future employment and maintenance of our people.
  6.13 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie: There can be no denying the fact that the Minister of Labour has the worst job in the Government, and no one needs envy him his portion.

  2717
  Everybody, I suppose, recognises that the problem of unemployment is a national question and a Government responsibility, and that the burden of the unemployed falls most heavily on the industrial areas where unemployment is the worst. Therefore, I want to know why the taxpayer should escape at the expense of the ratepayer. Take, for instance, a rich community like Bournemouth. There public assistance costs only 10½d. in the £, while in the County of Durham it costs 10s. 5d. in the £. The burden of unemployment shows a case for the equalisation of rates. In the course of the Minister's very long statement he made the prediction that the time was coming when jobs would be waiting for men. I hope that prediction will come true, and the sooner the better. Then we were told that the number of long-term unemployed was shrinking. Possibly a number may migrate to the cemetery, because the long-term unemployed are mostly elderly men; others again become entitled to the old age pensions, and, therefore, they would not be registered as unemployed. The Minister admitted that the North still shows a disproportionate share of unemployment. Despite the rearmament boom, unemployment is still with us, and the Government seem quite complacent over the situation.
  Some 1,250,000 persons are still registered as unemployed, but apparently that does not worry the Government, though the haunting fear of unemployment is a nightmare to the average worker. The Minister of Labour plumes himself on the present reduction in the number of unemployed, but if we take into account the workers engaged upon rearmament, the additional recruits for the armed forces and the calling up of the Militia, how many workers have actually found employment in productive occupations, especially in the export trades? If it be the case that the Government believe that the future is hopeful, why should they conserve the Unemployment Fund in the way they are doing? Why try to save £400,000 a year on holidays when thousands are on holiday without pay? Why continually deprive so-called seasonal workers of benefit though they have to contribute to the Unemployment Fund while at work? Why continue the three-days waiting period, in that way depriving thousands of unemployment
  2718
  benefit at a time when they have no wages?
  When the armament boom is over unemployment is bound to increase, despite all that the Minister has told us. What plans have the Government to cope with that situation? Scientific devices are constantly being introduced in order to increase production, and machinery is displacingman-power. We on this side contend that those scientific devices should be used not merely as wage-saving devices but for labour-saving in the real sense by a reduction of working hours. Unfortunately, the Government's record. on the hours question is far from credit-able. They prate about foreign competition and yet oppose every effort at Geneva to regulate competition by international agreement about hours. Fortunately the British Dominions have done something to restore British prestige in that respect. Not only have they provided an object lesson for the mother country by reducing hours, but they have raised the school-leaving age and introduced adequate pensions for old people, and by giving adequate pensions they have helped the local shopkeepers and through them the wholesalers and the manufacturers, in that way creating more work and more prosperity in the British. Dominions.
  The amount of overtime worked in armament works is notorious. Think of the effect on the health of the people. We should remember the lesson of the the last War, when the medical fraternity had to protest against the increase in the sickness ratio owing to the long hours worked in munition factories. The very first thing the United States did when they entered the War was to reduce the-working hours in all munition works to-48. We know that the distressed areas still present a problem to the Government. There are still derelict villages in Durham. On Tees-side alone 14,000 insured persons are registered as unemployed, and quite recently cement works were closed down and, will it be believed, at the head of those cement works is the late Commissioner for the Distressed Areas. In six years 76,000 people have been transferred from Durham to the south of England and the Midlands. When the armament boom is over thousands of them will return to Durham and there will be a further burden upon

  2719
  the public assistance authorities. The number of persons there in receipt of relief last year was the highest in Britain, 57,204, and the cost to public assistance alone was equal to 10s. 5d. in the £.
  There is a lot that could be done to relieve the situation. A Commission reported some time ago that by a proper system of land drainage we could employ at least 50,000 people almost immediately. In the County of Durham and elsewhere there are pits under water, which means millions of tons of coal lying waste. There are harbour improvements so essential to us as a maritime nation which could be undertaken, and 30,000 houses are needed in the county of Durham alone. We know that rearmament cannot continue at the present rate without creating an intolerable burden, and that we shall have to face the problem of re-adjustment to a peace time economy sooner or later. Have the Government any plan or plans for absorbing the workers already thrown out of work? In this connection I want to quote a statement by Mr. Butler, the late Director of the International Labour Office at Geneva. He is a man universally honoured throughout the world for his wide knowledge and his sane and practical views on the economic situation. Speaking of the present world situation he said:
  " The chance of remaking peace may come like a thief in the night, and unless the implications of a real peace, and particularly its economic implications, have been thought out in advance, unless statesmen and people can see the situation with clear eyes, when the critical moment comes the chance may again be lost, as it was lost in 1919."
  I hope the Government will bear in mind the words of Mr. Butler and really do something to assist in dealing with this unemployment problem.
  6.23 p.m.
  Mr. De Chair: I think there is a danger, when unemployment figures are falling rapidly every day, of those who are not deeply concerned about unemployment becoming a little complacent, and it is therefore, all the more important that the problem should be considered now, because, as the Minister of Labour has pointed out, the individual is the person who counts. There may be a great fall in the numbers of the unemployed, but to the individual who remains unemployed, and particularly the individual
  2720
  who has been unemployed for some time, the problem remains as acute as ever. Usually I envisage unemployment in this way. I feel that it is rather like a valley through which people are continually passing one way or the other. People come down into this valley of unemployment and the fortunate ones go on up the other side and get out again; but there are some who remain for years on end at the bottom of the valley. For them there is no sunlight, and it is for them in particular that our sense of responsibility should be aroused.
  The Minister told us that he had noticed a change coming over debates on unemployment during recent years. Whereas some years ago there used to be frequent constructive proposals now there were hardly any. I hope to make a constructive proposal this afternoon. Whether it will be accepted is another matter. We on this side are inclined sometimes to feel that the Government never take very muchnotice of their own back-benchers. They take a great deal of notice of the Opposition. They make their speeches with an eye on the Opposition benches, and when they are heckled they retreat this way or that while the silent ranks behind them nod or scowl, but that makes no difference whatever to the actions of Ministers. In the proposals I wish to put before the House I want particularly to secure the sympathy of the Opposition, because I feel that once the Opposition take up a constructive proposal for dealing with unemployment the Government are sure to adopt it sooner or later. The Opposition have adopted the tactics which were carried out so effectively, as we read in the Old Testament, by Joshua the son of Nun. When Joshua wanted to capture the city of Jericho he did not merely order a charge against the walls and try to storm it. He organised a very much more effective method of capturing the city. He ordered the people of Israel to march once round the city every day, playing upon seven rams horns and making a fearful noise.
  Mr. Lawson: Goebbels is doing that.
  Mr. De Chair: Yes, Goebbels has done that. It is a technique which has also been adopted with some effect by the Opposition. They march round the first day and blow their trumpets, and those on the watch towers, the Minister of

  2721
  Labour and the Parliamentary Secretary, look out and say "I do not like the sound of this." The second day they again walk round and blow their trumpets; and that goes on for six days. On the seventh day, it will be remembered, Joshua marched his forces round the city seven times, blowing continually upon the trumpets, until there was such a frightful clamour and din that the nerves of the people inside the city were, no doubt, reduced to pulp. The walls of Jericho fell down and the children of Israel marched in. I feel that that is the technique which the Opposition have on some occasions worked with great effect upon our Government.
  There is a group of Members in the House, on this side particularly, who believe that a practical solution of the unemployment problem as it affects the long-term unemployed could be found if they were given useful work in labour camps on the lines of the Civilian Conservation Camps in. the United States of America. I had a conversation with two right hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench in order to try to understand what was the objection in the minds of hon. Members opposite to the idea of camps where young men can do work of national importance. They said, "Well, of course the idea of the concentration camp is very familiar to us, whereas the idea of the civilian conservation camps has hardly penetrated to our minds at all. In fact most people would think it was a misprint, and that what we were really trying to bring into operation was some form of concentration camp on the lines adopted by Herr Hitler in Germany." Yet, in a great democracy on the other side of the Atlantic this experiment has been carried through with overwhelming success. It is probably the most popular feature of President Roosevelt's administration, popular with all sections of the community. He began the experiment in 1933, for the young unemployed in particular. As undoubtedly would be the case here, there was at first suspicion in America of the motive in starting these camps. People thought they might be the beginning of some militarist dictatorship, some shadow of the concentration camps which are feared by hon. Members opposite. I would like to quote what the "Manchester Guardian," which I think is a liberal-minded paper, says on the subject of these camps in America:
  2722
  "In the early days, American liberals felt much alarm lest civilian conservation camp enrolees should be subjected to military training and made the nucleus for a large armed force. Those fears have died away in the light of experience and the Army officers who have charge of the camps are under the strictest orders to give no military training whatever."
  I give that quotation because it shows that the "Manchester Guardian" recognises the change that has come over opinion in America with regard to those camps.
  Forty Members of this House have, during the last two days, placed upon the Order Paper a Motion drawing attention to the success of those camps in America and urging that in this country we should adopt some experiment on the same lines so that young men who have been out of work for any length of time, the long-term young unemployed, should be able to do work of national importance such as was suggested by the hon. Member who spoke last, the pumping of flooded pits, land drainage and a variety of other forms of work which have to be done. There seems to be a deep suspicion in the minds of hon. Members opposite as soon as the word "camp" is mentioned for dealing with the unemployment problem. It is in order to try to dispel that suspicion that I am speaking. The right hon. Gentleman to whom I referred suggested that I should speak again to-day to try to give some more information about the civilian conservation camps. I must apologise to the House for referring to them again within a comparatively short time of making a speech on the same subject in a recent unemployment Debate.
  The first questions that hon. Members will ask are, Why can you not employ all the unemployed at trade union rates of wages and put them to work in the ordinary course of business? If it is thought that work of national importance should be done, why give them different treatment from the people ordinarily employed in industry? On those points a clarification of the position should be made. I think there is no objection in the Socialist mind to camps as such. The New Zealand Government are doing a great part of their public works programme by means of camps of this kind. In 1929 the Labour Government set up a camp of unemployed men to work on the Middle Level drainage operations on the borders of my constituency. The interest-

  2723
  ing thing is not so much that the Labour Government had no objection to a labour camp for unemployed who had been brought a long way from distressed areas, but the prodigious cost of putting a comparatively small number of people to work in a camp of that kind.
  The Minister of Labour gave me information about the scheme on the Middle Level drainage, and said that the sum of £225,000 provided work for only 6,755 man-months; a comparatively small number of men. Under the loans, which were begun when the Labour Government were in office, £190,000,000 was spent, and it provided work at any one time for only 59,000 unemployed and for only 120,000 people at any time. Consider the enormous amount of money which was involved in providing work in the ordinary course of employment for two or three years for between 50,000 and 120,000 men. Hon. Members will realise that a solution of the unemployment problem cannot be found merely by spending money at trade union rates of wages on work of national importance. The contrast with what was done in America is very interesting because there, £384,000,000 was spent up to last year. That is only double the sum which I have just mentioned, but work was found in the civilian conservation camps for 2,242,000 young men compared with the spending of £190,000,000 by the Labour Government, which found work for only some 120,000 men.
  An Hon. MembersFor how long, in the American example?
  Mr. De Chair: In the period I have under review it was five years. I think those facts will explain to hon. Members opposite why we come to the House and say that we must adopt a different practice in finding work for these young men from what is suggested, namely, putting them to work at competitive trade union rates. What you can do is to give them six months work in camps and pay them more, probably, than they would get on public assistance; give them pocket money and send the bulk of what they get to their dependants in the distressed areas from which they came. I cannot see what the objection is to that proposal.
  Mr. Silverman: I will tell the hon. Member what it is. The objection is to creating a second class of citizens and to
  2724
  dividing the population up by saying to one portion of it: "You are unable to get work through no fault of your own, and therefore we shall treat you on a lower basis than the general level of citizenship in this country."
  Mr. De Chair: I can see the hon. Gentleman's point of view, and I think it focuses attention on the issue which I am trying to raise. It is all very well to say to young men who have been out of work for four or five years: "We prefer you to remain unemployed with no immediate prospect of employment, in some area where there is no work to be got, rather than that you should go away for six months to a change of life in the open air and do a job of useful work which has to be done in the national interest, and where we shall pay you the same as, or more than, you would be getting on public assistance." I do not see that there is anything humiliating about that suggestion. On the contrary I think it gives to those young men a hope for the future. The report of the Unemployment Assistance Board said that in the case of young men who had been out of work for any length of time it was felt that a period of training at an instructional or training centre might be necessary in order to give them a fresh outlook and afresh start in life. The report went into this matter at some length, as hon. Members no doubt are aware, and it says that nearly all the local committees reported that they felt there should be work of some kind in a training centre and training for the long-term young unemployed as a condition of receiving public assistance. We are not talking about the elderly unemployed. We do not want to take them away from their homes, but we want to give young men who have been out of work for any length of time an opportunity of doing work of national importance.
  To revert to the experiment in America. I would add that the work done has covered a vast range of subjects. The men have done afforestation, irrigation, fire prevention and a variety of work of that kind not all of which is comparable to problems in this country but a great deal of which could be done here. For example, the subject which I am sure would interest hon. Members opposite is that of planting slag heaps with trees. Successful experiments have been carried

  2725
  out in this matter. It undoubtedly improves the appearance of a slag heap in some mining village to cover it with trees, so that the people in the village can go and picnic there instead of having to see a bare slag heap standing out against the sky. I should like to see all slag heaps in the country planted with trees instead of being unsightly objects, and turned into something more attractive. That is the sort of work which these young men could easily do, and I cannot for the life of me see that it is in any way humiliating to take these young men for six months and give them work of national importance in a camp on those lines.
  It might be argued that there is an element of compulsion about it, but if young men can get a job when they are at these training or labour reserve camps, there is nothing to stop them from taking it. In America, some 400,000 young men actually obtained jobs while they were at the civilian conservation camps and there was nothing to stop them from taking them. Thecamp provided work only for those who had no work and for whom nothing else was available. It might be argued that a little resolution is needed by the Government to adopt such a policy when hon. Members opposite view it with such suspicion, but nobody can pretend that the same objection applies to this proposal as applies to conscription; yet it was found that conscrip-scription, when adopted, was very popular indeed. There is no doubt that Hitler has done more for the spirit of this country than a generation of politicians has been able to do for it. He has tempered the steel of this nation at a critical time in our history, and I hope that the effect will be enduring.
  I am going to appeal to the Government to give more sympathetic consideration to this plan. I know that the Minister of Labour takes the view that the numbers involved are dwindling rapidly and that the problem is not so acute as it was. That is one of the difficulties we are up against. Four years ago I had the honour of making my maiden speech in this House on this subject, and at that time this problem was very acute. There were large numbers of young men who had been unemployed for a long time. The four years have rolled by and nothing has happened except that
  2726
  now, when there are comparatively few unemployed, people seem, on the whole, more disposed to adopt the plan than they were at that time. That cannot be helped. If the principle is once accepted, then, if ever we have to face in the future a recurrence of unemployment on a large scale, there will be an organisation in existence to deal with it, this organisation of National Labour Reserve camps. Into them young men who have been unemployed for six months or more can go and do work of national importance. I put it to the Government that now is the time to adopt this principle. The Government Front Bench has been well likened to a row of inverted Micawbers, waiting for something to turn down. I hope that they will not turn down the plan which I have suggested.
  6.44 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Brown: The hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat makes an appeal to us to support the idea of what, I think, are called conservation camps. If any of us had put forward an idea like that two years ago we should have been accused of wanting to break up the homes of the British people. We think that these young men are better at home if they can remain there, and that work should be found for them in the ordinary way rather than that they should spend their days in the camps to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. I confess that I do not know a great deal about the experiment in America, and so I do not propose to follow the hon. Member any further in regard to that matter, except to say that it does not seem to me that he has made out any case for employing young men on work such as he mentioned at lower rates of wages than are usually paid to workmen doing that kind of work. It would be far better, if you did find work at all, to pay the ordinary trade union rates of wages applying to the work on which the young men were negaged. For my own part, I would take very strong exception to their being sent to these camps and paid less than the usual rates of wages.
  I listened to the Minister of Labour this afternoon, as I always do, with a great deal of interest. I must confess I sometimes find it rather difficult to follow him, but his arguments are always in-

  2727
  teresting, even if they are not convincing. This afternoon he proved himself, as usual, to be an ardent apologist for the economic order in which we live, and once more a splendid publicity agent for all the virtues of the National Government. But he added another function to the various qualifications that he manifests, for he sought also to fulfil the role of a prophet. He told us that by the autumn of this year, according to some economists, we shall have in this country what they call full employment, and naturally he took great pride in being able to communicate that information to the House.
  He rather complained that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) had devoted a good deal of his speech to the future, and he said he wanted to concentrate our attention on the present. I cannot blame him for that, but I would remind him that unemployment in this country during the last 20 years has left behind it a long trail of misery and suffering—that in many areas of this country there is, as a consequence of unemployment, what many of us on these benches regard as quite unnecessary poverty, and a good deal of suffering and misery. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman ought to complain if we do say something to-day about what we regard as likely to happen in the future. I imagined, and I found I was quite right, that the Minister to-day would deal with unemployment in two ways—that he would refer to the decline in unemployment and to the increase of employment, and that first he would tell us that the increase in employment was due to a general improvement in trade, and that he would then make some tentative admission that it was due in some degree to rearmament. I cannot understand why the Minister tries to convince himself all the time, as it seems to me, that more employment is not due to rearmament. He tries to make himself believe that rearmament has not very much to do with the increasing number of people who are at work in this country. I imagined that he would over-stress the point of view that the diminution in unemployment was due to a general improvement in trade, and that he would under-stress the other point. I was quite right in my anticipation. He did in my judgment over-stress the first argument and under-stress the second.
  2728
  While he was speaking, I could not help recalling the days when the Labour party was in office and we used to have so many discussions in the House on unemployment. The Minister made some reference to what was happening in the world at that time to bring about unemployment on a large scale. He used not to talk like that in those days, but probably, looking at the matter retrospectively, he does not want to place so much blame on the Labour Government as he once did. At any rate, he did not seem to do so to-day. I well remember that in those days it used often to be said, in regard to public works and employment, that the spending of £1,000,000 on public works would give employment, either directly or indirectly, to 4,000 people for a year. Those figures were often quoted officially in regard to that matter. In view of the fact that the Minister, as I think, very considerably under-stressed the argument in regard to the amount of new employment coming from rearmament, I would point out that the Prime Minister told us the other day that this year we are spending £750,000,000 on rearmament. If we accept the figure I have just quoted, of £1,000,000 giving employment to 4,000 for a year, that means that the £750,000,000 would give employment to 3,000,000 people. It is no wonder that unemployment is declining. You could hardly expect anything else in those circumstances. If it does not decline now. with conditions as they are at present and with this process going on, when is it likely to decline?
  All the Members of the National Government pride themselves, of course, on the fact that these figures are declining. I cannot blame them for taking all the pleasure and pride out of that fact that they can possibly extract. It would not be human nature if they did not. But let them remember what is happening in a general sense in regard to this problem. Everyone on these benches is profoundly pleased when any man who has not a job gets one; we are just as pleased as hon. Members opposite, because we regard this question, not merely as one of political expediency, but as one of social justice, and I imagine that many hon. Members opposite take the same view.
  Let us recall what has happened to bring about this change. The Minister has told us that we have now more people

  2729
  in employment in this country than ever before—I think I am not misquoting him —that we have a larger number of insured persons at work than ever before. That has come about, I think, for two main reasons. I would stress rearmament as being mainly responsible for the improvement that has taken place. The Minister this afternoon, in trying to disprove that point, told us, first of all, that there has been a decline in every area, and, secondly, that there had been a decline in a whole string of industries which he read out to us. One would naturally accept that, because rearmament must affect the matter both directly and indirectly. If work is given to persons who have been out of work for a long time, inevitably the wages they receive will be spent in consumable goods, which in their turn will give employment to people who were formerly unemployed. If the Nazis were good propagandists, they would instigate a propaganda in this country to the effect that, the more armaments you have, the more men will be at work, and, having forced the National Government into a vast rearmament scheme, and having at the same time forced them to adopt conscription, which will progressively reduce the unemployment figures—though I know it has not affected them much at the moment—the Nazis could very well claim that they are responsible for the general improvement in employment that has taken place in this country. I am certain that none of the Ministers on the Government Bench is in any way the architect of the improvement in general conditions in this country. That improvement has come about in spite of them, and, if it had not been for external factors, it would not have come about at all. It has not come about from any effort that they have put forth.
  Very serious regard should be paid to the questions which were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare about the future. Of course it is no use speculating about the future if war comes. That would be idle, and a waste of time. But if war is avoided, and many hon. Members claim that it is going to be avoided, a very real problem will face us. The Minister has tried to minimise what is likely to happen in those circumstances, by pointing out to us that, if there is a change-over from armament activity to
  2730
  peace-time activity, the process will be slow, and that those who lose their jobs by the change-over will be reabsorbed into peace-time industry. I do not accept that view. My view is that, if war is avoided, the change-over will have to be a rapid one, because, if war is avoided, it will be because rulers fear it, and dare not go on with it because of what it would mean to civilisation, and particularly to the present economic order. Once their fears reach the point where they cease these preparations on the present vast scale, there will, in my view, be a collapse on an unprecedented scale, and it seems to me that, unless we face up to that issue, the problems of peace may be as great as the problems of war—indeed, greater—in many of the countries concerned. Unless we face up to that possibility, and have some plans for dealing with the situation, it would be very dangerous to say what is likely to happen.
  Let us look at what has happened as the result of the last War. Let us try to see this matter against that background. There were no effective plans to deal with the situation that arose in Europe and elsewhere after the last War, and, as the result of that lack of plans, there was large-scale unemployment in many places, and social discontents of various kinds arose; and it is those social discontents, particularly in Germany and the Central European countries, that are responsible for the vast rearmament that is going on in the world at this moment. Even if fear seizes the hearts of rulers, and they cry off this terrible process which is going on in the world to-day, unless there are plans for meeting the situation which will then arise there will be engendered in all civilised communities such social discontent that it is horrible to visualise what may occur—the misery, the social distress, the poverty, the want, the need. How are you going to reabsorb into peace-time activity the millions of people who will be displaced when these vast armament programmes are checked and come to an end?
  I do not think that the Minister this afternoon conveyed, at any rate to us on this side, that the Government were devoting any great attention to the circumstances which are likely to arise. I would ask that some attention should be devoted to this situation, which is quite a possibility. The Prime Minister, towards the end of his speech on Monday,

  2731
  uttered some very ominous words. He said that, if this rearmament went on on its present scale, he could not see how the situation could be resolved except by war; and then he went on to express the hope that that dire calamity might not occur, but that, instead, the attention of men would be turned to the scientific resources at their disposal and to peace- time activity on such a scale that, both industrially and agriculturally, there would come about a better condition of life for the vast masses of the people. That will not happen of itself. It will not happen unless those who are responsible for the Government are carefully considering the problems that will arise. I ask the Minister to let his Department, at any rate, use some of its power to deal with those problems which will arise in such circumstances as those to which I have referred.
  7.1 p.m.
  Mr. Higgs: I disagree with the hon. Member when he suggests that the Minister said that the improvement which has taken place in trade was due to rearmament. The Minister did not say it was entirely due to rearmament, but he suggested that the improvement was partly due to it.
  Mr. C. Brown: I am sure I did not say that at all. What I did say was that he had stressed the fact that the improvement in employment was due to the general improvement in trade and he under-stressed the fact that it was due to rearmament.
  Mr. Higgs: That is what I disagree with. The hon. Member gave the figure of £750,000,000 being expended on rearmament.
  Mr. C. Brown: That is the Prime Minister's figure.
  Mr. Higgs: Yes. The hon. Member repeated what the Prime Minister said, but he did not say that a large amount of that money was spent on purchasing raw materials, machine tools and equipment and that often the finished products came from overseas, which reduces to a considerable extent the amount spent in this country. The hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) suggested that the unemployment to-day was higher than in pre-War days. I should like to know
  2732
  how he compares those figures. There are no comparab0le figures now with pre-War days, and I think that is an unfair and unreasonable statement to make.
  Mr. G. Hall: Might I explain that the trade unions of this country kept a complete record in pre-war days, and that record was kept from 1920 to about 1926? It is surprising how accurate the figures were compared with those of the Ministry of Labour.
  Mr. Higgs: I think the hon. Member was comparing the pre-War figure with the unemployment figure given by the Minister to-day.
  Mr. Hall: The percentage.
  Mr. Higgs: The hon. Member also referred to the means test. The Minister is only the custodian of this money, and I am under the impression that a lot of those people who are likely to receive unemployment benefit are not altogether objecting to the means test. Some few do who had to pass it, but it is not the general attitude of the population towards the means test. The hon. Member for Aberdare referred to the necessity of increasing our exports, and I would point out that that is not only a problem of the Government. It is also a problem of the industrialists and manufacturers, and it is a combined effort which is necessary in order to put the export trade of this country back where it originally was. I should like to ask the hon. Member for Aberdare what country in the world has had a better period of employment since the War than this country. If you go to France, Germany, the United States and Italy you will know something of the periods through which those countries have passed relative to this country. The United States have had a very much more difficult period to pass through. Their unemployment has been doubled and trebled relative to their population. I consider that a Debate of this description should be a Debate of employment and not unemployment, with an ever increasing population in which our position is continuing to improve.
  One of the great problems with which the Minister has to contend is the variant in different districts which is as much as from 4 to 20 per cent. There are two methods of overcoming it; one is to move the workers and the other to distribute orders in those districts where they are

  2733
  likely to be most beneficial. It is often asked, what is going to happen to those districts receiving the orders when they are completed? We have past experience to go on, and I think the town of Slough is a clear example. It was not an industrial town before the War. It became industrialised during the Great War and has continued to exist as an industrial town. Having once created that type of artisan in any particular district it is quite likely that employment will become more or less continuous after the conclusion of the contracts given out by the Government.
  The Minister referred to the question of the hard core of unemployment which is undoubtedly a very serious problem today. I was interested to hear the figures he gave. I also looked out some figures yesterday and found that in 1933 the percentage of hard core unemployed was 25 per cent. of the total. I find to-day that it is 23 per cent. of the total. It rather strikes me that it is one of those problems that are practically insoluble. There are considerable difficulties. There are the people who do not want employment. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] They are in the minority, I quite understand, but we have to realise that they exist. I knew as soon as I said those words that I would be interrupted by hon. Members on the other side. They know they exist as well as I do, and the question has to be faced.
  The good employment figures we have will, I consider, improve if industry remains constant, and of course they do not include the calling up of the militiamen. We do not realise that these good conditions are factors that are in existence, which I do not think we have had before in a period of prosperity such as we are in to-day. The cost of living is falling. Wages are rising and trade disputes are at a minimum. They are undoubtedly exceptional circumstances. The cost of living this month is 5 per cent. less than it was in this month last year. Wages have been increased among 1,000,000 workpeople since the beginning of this year. We have been remarkably free from labour disputes. We are down now to practically the lowest figure we have experienced during the last eight or nine years. Yet hon. Members on the other side are not satisfied with present conditions.
  I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the King's Roll. There were
  2734
  7 or 8 per cent. unemployed in October, 1938, compared with 14 per cent. of the insured persons in Great Britain. Unemployment in the King's Roll was practically one-half of that of general unemployment. The King's Roll has been in existence for a considerable period, and it is necessary for employers to engage 5 per cent. of their total employes in order to qualify for registration on the King's Roll. If that figure was satisfactory 20 years ago, it is not satisfactory to-day. I am perfectly confident that there are many works in this country that are not engaging their proper quota. I know they have a right to get exemptions, but I know there are also many factories which are not engaging their proper quota and have not got exemptions. I consider that is unjust to those people who are engaging their proper quotas. I consider it would be far more fair and just if that quota was now reduced to something of the order of 2½ per cent. There are a lot of those fellows out of employment, and owing to their injuries they are not capable of doing work. I have had personal experience of them on many occasions, and it would square the matter up far better if the Minister could see his way to make that adjustment.
  With regard to Employment Exchanges, the Minister has been asked on many occasions if he could not see his way clear to advocate all labour being engaged through the exchanges. I am very pleased to hear he has refused it on every occasion. I consider that the value of the Employment Exchange is very much over-estimated when filling positions —
  Mr. E. Brown: I am reluctant to interrupt, but that is not so. I consider that it has been a very great help in long-term unemployment. It might be more so if we could get further agreement about this matter. As I said in answer to a question about this matter, after a good deal of negotiation we are making considerable progress.
  Mr. Higgs:It is not being applied. The Minister has explained that he is desirous of doing it, but so far it has not been compulsory to engage labour through the employment exchange. I should be very sorry indeed to see the day when it is compulsory, because I consider that for local employment it is far better to have a greater selection of the labour avail-

  2735
  able. It is far better for the artisan himself to be able easily to select those firms by whom he would prefer to be engaged.
  Mr. E. Brown: This is very important. There are a large number of areas where we have expended large sums of money in putting up new factories. In a local situation you may have some thousands of men out of work for a long time. You leave a contractor perfectly free to engage labour as he wishes. Only in the last 18 months have I been able to get an arrangement to notify. Where men are brought from other areas there is a problem to which, I think, my hon. Friend might pay attention, I think he will find that the House endorses the view which I have expressed with reference to the claims of the local unemployed.
  Mr. Higgs: I thank the Minister for his explanation. I will give my own personal experience. In Birmingham, labour is short and it is exceedingly difficult to get workers for particular purposes. We are in the habit of potting advertisements in the public Press and we get a large number of applications for certain purposes, and none for others. We have now found a way of getting fellows whom we would not get through the employment exchange. We advertise for labourers and when we get 20 men present we ask those labourers who among them have had any experience with lathes, and four or five probably put up their hands and say they have had some little lathe experience. In that way we are able to get semi-skilled men who did not think they were capable of doing the job but are capable if they get the right employer. If we had to employ these men through the employment exchanges we should not get them. I strongly object, also, to a third party intervening in a problem which can be settled directly.
  I would like to refer to the question of refugees and employment, I object to the refugees being admitted into this country as employers. I consider they could come in in an advisory capacity. I noticed that there had been no successful cases. The Minister did not say the number of failures. I do consider that these cases could have been equally successful if those refugees had been admitted as advisers and not as employers. I think it is an insult to the British
  2736
  industrialists and manufacturers that foreigners should come here and show us how to do our business..
  Mr. Bracken: Is the hon. Member suggesting that a refugee who comes in here with capital should not start an industry here? If it is an insult, why should we encourage Americans to come here or encourage English employers to go abroad?
  Mr. Higgs: English employers are not allowed to go abroad in one or two countries, and if the countries were as densely populated as this country—and we are the most densely populated country in the world—then their problem would be a very difficult one. We have to depend on two exports: coal and the products of labour. Exports of the products of labour are far more essential to us than to any other country. I do not agree with this principle of allowing refugees to come into this country and start in business. It is a wrong principle for a manufacturing country. I have had many bad reports about these refugees— I do not specify any country—as employers. Their methods here are not the same as in their own countries. Sixty-one per cent. of them went into private domestic service last year, yet we have a tremendous number of unemployed women in this country. Industrial production in this country is now equal to what it was at the peak period in May, 1937. [Interrupotion.] Yes, including armaments production; as the Minister has said, you cannot differentiate between the two.
  There is a downward tendency in certain industries. It has been suggested several times this afternoon that public works are of limited value, but there are other means by which we can employ our people. More efficient land cultivation has been referred to; I would emphasise the value of more efficient industrial production, and also the training of more capable industrial leaders. If a young fellow wants to become a carpenter or a bricklayer, he has to serve an apprenticeship for five years, but if a young fellow intends to become an employer he may go to a university and train to become an engineer, but after that he seldom knows what he wants to do. He does not know whom he is going to employ or what he is going to make.

  2737
  It is the employers who should be trained. It is leadership that we require.
  We have heard about expansion of overseas trade. I think the Government could do a lot in this direction by arranging barter agreements. Combined effort is necessary, but that is a problem for the Government. We, as a manufacturing nation, are inclined to compare ourselves to other nations, whereas we are in a different position, as our great export has to be the products of labour. When conditions become more normal and the rearmament programme is finished, we must look for our exports and the employment of our workpeople particularly in the direction of manufactured goods. I do not consider that we are adjusting ourselves rapidly enough to existing conditions. If a manufacturer in this country sent a considerable amount of goods to the United States, before the Agreement came into effect, he might have found that the tariff had increased the next day. I do not want to bring in a tariff argument—this is not the occasion for it—it is rapid adjustment that is necessary. Now is not the time to restrict. Unless we import manufactured goods, machine tools, and so forth, it is necessary to restrict employment. The problem at the moment is not how to reduce our unemployment, but how to keep up our employment.
  7.21 p.m.
  Mr. W. Glenvil Hall:I do not intend to follow the line of argument of the hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Higgs). I should find it difficult to do so, and, if I may say so, I think it would be a waste of time. I agree that the Minister of Labour has undoubtedly the worst job of anyone on the Treasury bench. None of us on this side envies him, and I think that this afternoon he has stood up as well as he could to the criticism that has been levelled against him. I remember the Debates which took place almost weekly in the Parliament of 1929–31. It is true to say that during the last 50 years unemployment, in an increasing degree, has taken precedence of almost every other subject in the Debates of this House. It is over 40 years since Keir Hardie, a lone figure on these benches, brought in his first Right to Work Bill. Although at that time his suggestions were received with derision, we have lived to see unemploy-
  2738
  ment taken seriously, and the principle established that the State should help the people of this country to work.
  I was extremely interested to hear the Minister say that the Government had done great things for coal and cotton. I happen to have been actively engaged during the last few weeks in a by-election in a constituency in the West Riding, where the cotton question has loomed fairly large. As most hon. Members may know, there are in the Colne Valley two industries side by side: one is the cotton industry, which is now dying, and the other is the woollen industry, which at the moment is thriving. Owing to the armaments programme, the woollen mills are working night and day, turning out mile after mile of khaki. On the other hand, the cotton and thread mills have been closing down. During the last month or so one of the last mills left has announced that it is also to close down. The board which controls this mill, a subsidiary of the Coats combine, has stated that it has to close down the mill owing to difficulties arising as a result of quotas and other restrictions. These restrictions are definitely due to the policy of the present Government. They now find that markets abroad which they used to supply with cotton thread are no longer open to them, owing to restrictions and quotas, and the work which was previously done at this mill has had to be carried on at other mills, or supplied from overseas. The result is that 800 people in Meltham, a small township in the West Riding will be, in the very near future, out of work.
  I put a question to the Minister to-day which he was good enough to answer. I gather that the Army Clothing Contracts Advisory Committee may be able to find work for the people in that mill; but that this is by no means certain. If not, it is a very tragic lookout for them. I believe that every home in the district will be affected. The mill has been in existence for at least 150 years. Not only have many of the people there worked in the mill all their lives, but their fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers, and even, in some cases, great-great-grandfathers have worked in that mill. I would therefore beg the right hon. Gentleman not to leave it to local effort only to deal with this matter, but to see what he can do to direct Government contracts to that area. In another area, Springhead, in the

  2739
  same division, other cotton mills have already closed down. In one place, I understand, at least nine mills have closed down in the last 15 years, and that only one is in use to-day, and that one is now manufacturing wallpaper.
  These are facts, and they are largely due to the policy of the present Government. The Government is quite properly erecting factories, mills and works in other areas. I would therefore urge the Minister of Labour seriously to consider making use of the buildings at Meltham and the people who have worked there. Colne and Holme Valley people are the best craftsmen in the world, and the materials they make are the best of their kind in the world. I would beg the Government to make use of the mill to which I have referred, and to see that the area in which it stands does not become derelict, in the tragic way other areas have.
  7.28 p.m.
  Major Procter: I should like to congratulate the Government for the diminution of unemployment. But, first, I should congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. W. G. Hall) on what I might call his semi-maiden speech, and to express the hope that we shall hear him many times. I differ from him in that I am profoundly grateful that an improvement has taken place in the cotton trade. There are some 30,000 more employed in the cotton trade to-day than were employed not long ago. I think it was hardly fair for the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. C. Brown), to give such tardy recognition to the undoubted fact that unemployment has decreased and employment increased, and to say that the Government were not deserving of any credit for this. I have been present during many Debates in this House on unemployment. I remember that, whenever the unemployment figures have gone up, Members on the other side have condemned the Government for that increase. Why should they not be generous and give credit to the Government when there is so great a decrease in unemployment? If the last Labour Government could have produced figures during their regime such as have been produced to-day, they would still be in office. Nobody blames the Labour Government for the world situation in 1931. [Hon. Members: "Oh!"]
  2740
  The blame is for the way they handled the problems which confronted them. Before they were elected in 1929 they made great promises and prophecies, and they make them even to-day.
  I hope that their prophecies and dark forebodings as to what will happen after the armament programme is finished will be just as false as the promises and prophecies they made before the 1929 election. I remember Miss Susan Lawrence, a former Member of this House, saying that when the Labour Government came into office it would take six weeks to clear up the mess, but that in less than three months there would not be an unemployed person in England. That was one of their promises, but it was not carried out. While it is true that there has been a substantial increase in employment due to rearmament, it must be recognised that, side by side with this increase, there has been a steady increase in employment in all other trades and that the prospects of the country are better to-day than they have been for a long time.
  The unemployment problem is bound up with the very difficult problem of individual liberty. There is no doubt whatever that you could solve the unemployment problem overnight in any country in the world provided you were willing to destroy individual liberty. An hon. Member from one of the Scottish constituencies mentioned the U.S.S.R. It is true that they have solved the unemployment problem in Russia, and it has been to a large extent solved in Germany and other Fascist countries, but it has been done by taking away the liberty which a person has in this country of sacking his boss.
  Mr. Gallacher: May I ask the hon. and gallant Member whether he has made any study at all of the conditions in the Soviet Union, and whether he is aware that every man and woman employed has a high rate of wages, is a member of a trade union, has every liberty guaranteed, and has more democratic rights in industry than is the case in any part of Britain?
  Major Procter: Yes, I have made a study of Communism, and I find that it is too materialistic to be a religion, too foolish to be a philosophy, and too tyrannical for a free people. While they have solved unemployment in Soviet Russia, the standard of life of the

  2741
  workers there is less than that of the British workers. However, I do not want to be led astray, as would be the case if I followed the devious paths of Communist doctrine. Nevertheless, you can solve the problem of unemployment provided the State is in a position to say, "You are to work at this or that at whatever wages we think you ought to get." That is the way in which they have solved the unemployment problem in Fascist and Communistic countries, but to find a solution for unemployment in a democratic country is a different proposition. Not only must work be found but decent wages should be paid. Another essential to increased employment is confidence. You cannot have employment in this or in any other democratic country unless there is confidence on the part of the employer that his capital will not be lost. If there is not that confidence, the wheels of trade slow down and people lose their jobs. This Government has given confidence to industry hence the improvement in employment.
  I now turn from the general question to two matters which affect my constituency. With the indulgence of the House, I will read from a letter received from one of my constituents, and a short newspaper cutting. This constituent of mine is a valuer, a very faithful servant and one skilled in his job, but he has one defect, which is due to no fault of his own. It is a defect which will come to us all. He is growing old. He is over 60 years of age. He writes to say that he cannot get a job at his profession, or indeed a job anywhere. This is a very serious matter and one which should call for the serious consideration of hon. Members opposite. We have to see whether we can help to find a solution of this problem—the problem of the elderly man. The newspaper cutting, which has been sent to me by the some constituent, states that children of 14 earn the same as parents. Thousands of children who have ended their school career this week are going into jobs at the same wages as their parents. The demand for young labour is so great in many industries, and particularly those in armament areas, that as much as £3 a week is being offered. Attention was drawn to this by a court case last week, when it was revealed that a boy of 14 was earning £3 5s. in a factory, his father being a farm labourer earning 25s. a week. In shell factories in Cheshire and
  2742
  Lancashire, girls of 14 and 15 are earning £2 10s. a week on semi-skilled work. When I was that age and serving my time as an engineer in a factory, I received 3s. a week, and had to work 54 hours for it. Surely, in this contrast of wages between the young and the old is. a problem which must more and more engage the attention of this House.
  Thanks to the wonderful health services throughout the country men and women are living to a greater age, with the result that we are getting a population of old men, on the one hand, and young children coming into industry, on the other. For some two years now I have been pressing forward the problem of elderly men and women. So long as this is an unsolved problem I shall continue to call attention to their need. I am told by this same constituent of mine that when two-men just over 50 went to a new arms factory to try and find work, they were told that they were too old. I do not believe that a man of 65 is too old for a job; many men of 65 are in good condition and can do a good job of work. As men are living longer, means must be provided for them to continue longer in industry. I believe in old age pensions, but I do not believe in pensioning off a man if he is capable of work and wants a job. What has happened in my division? Through the operation of a very beneficent law passed by this House providing for a pension at 65, and owing to the short time in an engineering works, a factory worked only two or three days a week. The young men, being ambitious, were lured by the chance of obtaining constant work to other districts. A number of young men left my division and found work in Birmingham and other places. That meant that my division was being denuded of its youth, and in order to provide work for the young men, over 300 workers were turned off for no other reason than that they were 65 years of age. All that they had to look forward to was an inadequate pension. [Interruption.] The only way pensions can be improved is by the Government continuing to give confidence so that there will be enough money to pay them.
  Mr. Gallacher: There is some hope of that.
  Major Procter: I warn the House that this problem of the elderly worker will

  2743
  become more and more acute. The population is going to decrease from 1941 onwards, and we shall have more, old men in comparison, and, therefore, some proposal must be made by the Minister of Labour to keep the older folk at work and drawing wages instead of doles. The Minister of Labour should form a King's Roll for elderly men, so that every works would consider it a point of honour to keep in employment these veterans of industry who have served them for so long. These men do not want to feel that they are on the scrap-heap. They want a job, and I, as representing my Division, want to see these 300 men to whom I have referred back at their jobs. They would rather be at work than have any pension.
  Mention has been made to-day of training centres. Some year and a half ago I made a suggestion in this House, and also in my Division, that men who were semi-trained and unaccustomed to work with a micrometer or precision tools should be provided with an opportunity of obtaining the necessary amount of extra skill to enable them to get a job. I suggested that the Minister of Labour should get into touch with local authorities and see whether such training could be given. We have in Accrington a very wise and a very go-ahead director of education as well as an active education committee. The education committee opened the technical school for the unemployed, with the result that 58 unemployed attend in the afternoon and 78 in the evening. They get technical education through the vision of the education committee of the Accrington town council, and many of those unemployed engineers by that extra training have got jobs. I would suggest to the Minister of Labour that he might get into touch with the directors of education in other centres and suggest that they should follow the example of Accrington, so that education is not confined simply to boys and girls, but given to men so that they can become super skilled engineers, and their skill be used not only for the trade of the country but also for its protection as well.
  7.46 p.m.
  Mr. Daggar: It would not be interesting to follow the last speaker, because he choose a number of minor points and endeavoured to emphasise them with such unnecessary vigour Other hon. Members
  2744
  who have preceded me have made interesting suggestions, but it is not my intention to follow them in detail, nor is it my intention to follow the Minister in some of his observations. He has made it perfectly clear that we must be careful when we refer to the unemployed not to speak of them as a standing army or an unwanted army. He made it clear, also, that whatever credit may be ascribed to the Government, we have still 1,250,000 people unemployed. That is a fact that we have to face. I was rather surprised at the right hon. Gentleman's reference to what Sir William Beveridge had said as to the harvest being related to the problem of unemployment. It reminded me of that old orthodox economist. Professor Jevons, who persuaded himself that unemployment was due to spots on the sun. I suggest that Sir William Beveridge's observation is a corollary to that brain wave on the part of Professor Jevons.
  I take exception to the Minister saying that no original suggestions had been made from these benches in regard to the unemployment problem, because they had all been tried out by the Special Commissioners. The suggestion of the extraction of oil from coal has not been tried out. We have suggested on more than one occasion, afforestation. That has not been tried out. We have made suggestions in regard to the equalisation of rates. Those are three proposals that have not been tried out in the Special Areas. I take exception also to the Minister deliberately conveying the impression that this Government has assisted the coal industry in a manner similar to the help given to other industries. Within the last fortnight a Bill has been introduced which provides for a subsidy—we must not call it a dole—to the agricultural industry to the extent of £28,750,000. In addition provision has been made for the loan of another £10,000,000. I should be surprised if there is any hon. Member who would controvert the statement that if regard is had to the benefit which has accrued to the agricultural industry as a result of the derating proposals and the relief the industry has had in the form of subsidies, the figure is in the region of £160,000,000 to £170,000,000. It ill becomes the Minister to convey the impression that the mining industry has been

  2745
  assisted in a way approaching the assistance that has been given to the agricultural industry.
  Last week when we were discussing the demands being made throughout the country for an increase in old age pensions the Prime Minister rightly drew attention to the enormous sum of money required this year for the Defence Services. He gave a figure not of £750,000,000 but £730,000,000. I submit that there are other figures in connection with this issue of unemployment equally as terrible and disturbing. Reference was made by my hon. Friend who opened the Debate to the expenditure on unemployment benefit amounting to something like £1,000,000,000 since 1921, and that the cost of administration of the Unemployment Assistance Board for three years is in excess of £13,000,000. This expense means that thousands of men are in employment, because thousands are out of employment and that those two sections of the community have to be maintained out of the proceeds of production.
  It is tragic when you consider that since 1921 the number of working days lost through unemployment is over 9,126,000,000. An hon. Member opposite made reference to the number of days lost because of industrial disputes and was very proud of the fact that we had reached a minimum this year or last year, but he ignored the enormous number of working days lost. If we seek to express those lost working days in money it means that we have lost £5,000,000,000. Those figures, more so than those used by the Prime Minister, are appalling, because while the conditions exist which make their existence possible the greater must become the country's difficulties in providing for so large an expenditure upon the Defence Services. It is because of these facts that I welcome another Debate on the problem of unemployment. I trust that we shall express our unwillingness to accept the optimism of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour who said in the House on 30th June last that it is necessary to protect ourselves against a foreign enemy, but that when this is over there will be a revival of ordinary civil and commercial trade. I wish I could share that hope. We may, as he said, witness a revival of ordinary civil and commercial trade, but
  2746
  what we are concerned about this evening is, will that be sufficient to absorb those persons now engaged in unproductive employment, and can we expect such a revival to absorb all our unemployed men and women? On the same day the Minister of Labour said:
  " We are, it seems, in the realms of prophecy."
  Personally, I have no objection to the Parliamentary Secretary indulging in such a pastime, but may heaven protect us from another prediction from the Minister of Labour. Some of us have a distinct recollection of the prophecy he made when he was the Secretary for Mines. He assured the House that we had passed the day when large explosions would happen in the pits of this country. Strange to say, we had the largest explosion that has occurred for the last 25 years within a month of the right hon. Gentleman making that prophecy. Whatever may be said about the right hon. Gentleman as a preacher or as a politician, I have scant respect for him when he becomes a prophet.
  In dealing with this phase of unemployment on 30th June the right hon. Gentleman made use of these words, and to some extent he has emphasised them to-day:
  "I do not intend to adopt the idea that when peace comes at the end of the rearmament period, there will be nothing but inspissated gloom before this country and the world."
  I rather like the adjective the right hon. Gentleman used. I understand that it means "to thicken by the evaporation of moisture, as the juices of plants." The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
  "It is clear that, white there is a gain in employment as a result of feverish rearmament, there is another side to the picture, which has been clearly shown during the last three years. At every time of extreme tension in the world, there have been setbacks which have had nothing whatever to do with rearmament, and there can be no doubt that there is another side of the matter. In this discussion, we are, it seems, in the realms of prophecy. It is interesting to find that when the Minister comes to discuss employment, hon. Members are much more concerned about speculating about what will happen in two and a half years time than in considering what is happening now. I venture to put the other side of the case."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th June, 1939; col. 881, Vol. 349.]

  2747
  That is what he has done to-day. He talks about another side of a picture, which he says has been clearly shown during the last three years. What has been shown that removes our anxiety for the future? We were told in this House that for the years 1935 to 1938, inclusive, including Civil Defence, we spent on rearmament £988,558,000, that is, nearly £1,000,000,000. That expenditure is largely if not entirely responsible for the apparent improvement in trade, and the subsequent drop in the unemployment figures. Any further drop in those figures must be ascribed to the enormous expenditure this year of £730,000,000. It is difficult to estimate correctly the extent to which the figures of unemployment have dropped because of our expenditure on armaments, and therefore the right hon. Gentleman is enabled to ignore our request to prepare plans for a future slump or recession in trade. I would ask him to examine an estimate which I am about to quote, and to favour the House with his criticism. I claim no credit for the figures used in the estimate. They belong to Mr. Douglas Jay, no mean authority, a contributor to the "Daily Herald." They appeared in that newspaper on 4th July, 1939. Mr. Jay asked:
  "How many people are now engaged in producing defence materials of all kinds? "
  He asked that question in order to ascertain to what extent there would be an increase in the number of unemployed when the rearmament programme has been completed. He assumes the output per head to be about £250 per year. I think that figure is a very reasonable one, because it is obviously based upon the figure contained in what is known as the Macmillan Report, as being the average annual value of a workman's product. Mr. Jay takes the total annual expenditure on Defence materials as nearly £500,000,000, and he says:
  " It would seem that nearly 2,000,000 people are producing such materials—including those making coal, steel, etc., used in manufacturing the final product. If we add in the armed Forces, we should get a figure more like 2,500,000. If we also add in all those producing goods bought by the armament workers and those in the forces, the total would be more like 5,000,000."
  If the Minister of Labour is satisfied that these figures are not exaggerated, then he is faced with this obvious conclusion, that:
  2748
  " If rearmament were suddenly stopped tomorrow, at least 1,750,000 people would lose their jobs directly, and from 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 indirectly as a result."
  The figure used in connection with that estimate corresponds with the figure, well known to Members of the House, when the Labour Government was expending money on what are now called public works, that £1,000,000 would give employment to 4,000 individuals. It is true that the committee responsible for the expenditure of this money gave a smaller figure of 3,000 but, subject to the figures being approximately correct, we are entitled to say that there are few things more urgent than to prepare plans for meeting this emergency.
  We who come from the mining areas may be asked what is the cause of our anxiety. I speak for South Wales and Monmouthshire. The Minister of Labour himself has stated the case. He said the backbone of the industrial prosperity of South Wales was coal-mining and it was the depression of that industry which was the root cause of unemployment in that area. If that is true, some measures should be taken now to plan its revival. I think it is tragic that during the last 12 years one-seventh of the population of Wales has been compelled to seek employment in other parts of Great Britain, and it is in order to prevent the continuation of that migration that I am emphasising the need of doing something in order to assist in the revival of the mining industry. Despite what we have been told about the improvement in the industry, I still think that the future is at least not very bright, and that something should be done now. The Parliamentary Secretary, on 30th June, made this statement:
  " In the coal industry, which still remains one of the basic industries of this country, the reduction in unemployment in one year has been 44,000. While this time last year unemployed coal miners totalled 17.3 per cent. of those who were insured, the number has fallen this year to 12.4 per cent."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th June, 1939; col. 817, Vol. 349.]
  I cannot understand how those figures can be relied upon in view of these facts. If you take the quantity of coal exported from Great Britain during the first six months of the year and compare it with the six months of last year, there is a small increase of 978,000 tons. But if you make a similar comparison between June of this year and June of last year it shows a decrease of no less than 772,000 tons.

  2749
  I think those figures prove that the mining industry shows no evidence of improvement. A complete picture cannot be obtained unless you compare 12 months with 12 months. Any other comparison is unreliable. The output last year was down by over 13,000,000 tons as compared with 1932. That is 1,500,000 tons less than in 1936 and the enormous figure of 31,000,000 tons less than in 1929. Last year's exports are down, compared with 1937, by no less than 4,500,000 tons and, compared with 1929, there is a decrease of over24,000,000 tons. The position is similar in South Wales. The output for 1938 compared with 1937 is down by over 2,000,000 tons and, if you compare 1938 with 1929, there is a decrease of over 12,000,000 tons. Exports show a similar picture. Last year's exports compared with 1937 are down by nearly 2,000,000 tons and, compared with 1929, there is a decrease of over 10,000,000 tons. If exports are down, the quantity consumed at home has not increased. If you compare 1938 with 1937, the amount of coal consumed in Great Britain is 7,000,000 tons less. Now is the time to discuss measures to restore, if possible, an industry upon which so many of our districts have existed and which since 1929 has been in a state of gradual decay. We in South Wales are obliged to take a serious view of the present situation. An adequate compensation for that serious migration of one-seventh of the population in the last 12 years is not to be found in the establishment of one trading estate at Treforest which has found employment, according to an answer given on 3rd November last, to only 720 persons.
  There is another question of importance with regard to the mining industry. I accept rationalisation as being inevitable under our present economic system, but at least we ought to face its consequences. They always appear to be ignored by the Government. I want consideration given to this one fact again. We produced more than 688,000 tons of coal more in South Wales in 1937 than in 1931 with 22,261 fewer miners. Those figures are not quite the same if you compare 1938 with 1931, but they show that rationalisation is one of the causes of the large number of unemployed miners. I have never contended that it was possible to solve the problem of unemployment
  2750
  while we have the existing economic system. I have never been convinced that effective planning of industry was practicable unless those who planned owned the industries of the country, because in my opinion planning involves control, and complete control involves complete ownership. Nevertheless, I hold the opinion that a slump in trade is inevitable. While we cannot prevent it, we can, by taking appropriate measures, mitigate the severity of its effects. Were we honest men and not shifty politicians, we should not hesitate to take action now.
  8.9 p.m.
  Sir George Schuster: I am sure the Minister will agree that none of us on this side of the House can complain of the tone of the speeches of hon. Members opposite. It seems to me that we have had, particularly from the hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate, serious attempts at making constructive proposals and getting at the truth about the problem of unemployment. The Debate seems to have ranged, in distinction to some other Debates that we have had, rather over the causes of unemployment than on the condition of the unemployed, and I propose to deal with that aspect of the matter. Before I get on to that there has been one interesting feature in the speech of my right hon. Friend himself, in that on this occasion for the first time he has presented himself to us as facing two problems. He looks down on the one side at the problem of underemployment and, on the other, at a problem which he foresees becoming in the near future very acute, the problem of undue competition for labour in certain industries. I do not know whether he derives any satisfaction from this new problem, but perhaps as a counter-irritant it may give him some relief.
  As he himself has put that problem to the House, perhaps it is legitimate for some of us, who have touched upon the matter before, to look back on some of the things that we said in the earlier stages of the Budget Debates when we foresaw that this problem would arise and tried to get some answer to the question whether the Government proposed to take any steps in the matter. If there is to be undue competition for labour and for the use of the resources of manufacture in certain industries, then in order to

  2751
  avoid undesirable results it would certainly seem to be wise that some steps should be taken to regulate private demand competing with the public need. I should like to hear whether the Government really are considering taking any steps in that direction.
  That is not only an important matter in itself as affecting our immediate problem, but it has a very important bearing on the problem which so many hon. Members have touched upon of what is to happen if, as we hope, this abnormal demand for rearmament should slacken down. If the demand of private consumption in certain respects in regard to certain articles is damped down now because of its competing with Government requirements, then when Government requirements slacken it is legitimate to anticipate that there will be a fairly large accumulated demand from the public which will be extremely valuable to help us over the time of reaction when the Government armament effort slackens down. Some of us suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for example, that it might be desirable to damp down the private demand for motor cars now because there was going to be an excessive competition for employment in that industry, having regard to the Government's needs. That is a practical example of the sort of thing that I have in mind, and what my right hon. Friend said seems to indicate that the Government foresee dangers in that direction. I hope that means that appropriate action will be taken.
  Turning to another point, it has been advanced by speakers on the other side, as a criticism of my right hon. Friend's speech, that he minimised the effect of armament expenditure on the increase in employment which has been seen in the last few months. But if I understood him correctly that was not really his point at all. I am sure he would be the last person to deny that the rearmament programme has had an immense effect on employment. What I understood him. to say, rather, was that, owing to the way in which the Government had handled the position, they had preserved the normal economic life of the country as far as possible, and it was a remarkable fact that the enormous rearmament effort had up till now produced very little distortion in the economic balance of the country.
  2752
  If that was my right hon. Friend's point, I submit that it was a legitimate point to take, because it has been indeed a remarkable phenomenon that up till now normal business has been so little interfered with. But with the increase in expenditure which is being undertaken this year the picture is being entirely altered, and from what the Minister said about the shortages and over-competition for labour which is going to appear in certain directions, it is clear that he fully appreciates the position.
  I want now to turn to another point. A great deal has been said this evening about the importance of the Government being prepared with plans for a slump which is likely to occur when the rearmament effort slows down. I agree with my right hon. Friend when he says that it is impossible to foresee what the conditions will be, and that if detailed and elaborate plans are prepared they may very well be unsuitable to the particular emergency. I want to make a special point in regard to what has been said about having a public works programme ready. I think it is important to appreciate that all this rearmament expenditure is artificial expenditure and is producing artificial activity. After this effort what will really be needed by the country will be to restore its normal and natural economic health. An artificial, specially prepared public works programme will not do that. We shall have passed through a period when capital expenditure on behalf of the Government has been competing and driving out of the field capital expenditure on behalf of private enterprise, and it will not be appropriate treatment for the patient, if we want to restore him to a true stats of health, to give him another huge dose of artificial non-productive expenditure on public account.
  But although I have been saying that it might be dangerous to think that you can deal with the future situation by elaborate plans prepared now in advance, I do not wish to ally myself with those who say that the Government ought to be taking no forethought on these matters. I think they should be studying the situation very closely and that they should be directing their thoughts to the fundamental problems with which the world will have to deal. I submit that it is clear now what are these fundamental

  2753
  problems, and it is quite certain that they will be with us when we return to peaceful conditions. The fundamental problems arise from the maladjustment between the productive power of the world to-day, with all the improvements of science and transport, and the purchasing power for consumption as it is distributed to-day. I know that hon. Members opposite will agree in what I am saying in that respect, and I entirely agree with what many of them have said on other occasions, that poverty and low standards of living are the real problems and that it is by curing these problems that you may restore real economic health. Holding that view, I entirely agree that a generous policy should be adopted in this country as regards wages and pensions, and unemployment relief, and everything of that kind.
  But, when it comes to the application of that view one finds that one is up against this practical difficulty, that although we rely now to a less extent on our export trade than we did before the War, and although we have been able to show remarkable things in the way of the development of our industries for our own internal requirements, nevertheless, the margin of our production which has to rind its way into the export markets is sufficient to make the entire difference between prosperity and distress in this country. Our export trade is vital to us, and if by putting up our standards of wages and of social services which have to be raised in the form of taxation on industry, we put our industry out of competition with the industries of other countries, then we may in the long run do more harm than good. The point I want to put is that if the Government really want now to be tackling the fundamental problems and have something ready for the day, which we hope we shall all see, when armament expenditure becomes less necessary, then they should be considering with other countries how, by international co-operation, we can bring about a general rise in the standards of living, so that we shall not push ourselves ahead of other countries but that the rise may be universal and therefore would not affect our competitive capacity.
  I have ventured to put this suggestion forward in the Board of Trade Debates. I know that what I am saying now is not strictly a matter for the Minister of Labour, but I want to suggest that if
  2754
  we are thinking of doing anything on these lines the first thing to do is to get a concerted policy with the United States of America. If we could co-operate with them in a war against low standards of living, we could really achieve results. Having agreed on common action we could then approach other countries; we could create a club of national members, each of which would agree to respect certain standards. Some speakers to-night have referred to what has been done in the International Labour Office at Geneva. Very valuable work has been done, but that could be enormously supplemented if the British Commonwealth of Nations, and the United States could together give a lead to the world in that particular direction. Working together with them and other co-operating nations we could present a common front to those countries which did not follow these methods and observe these standards; we could then invite them to join our club, and if they did not we could take very effective action against them.
  This obviously is not the occasion to develop a theme of that kind, but as the suggestion has not been put forward yet, and as we are all searching for constructive ideas, I do ask my right hon. Friend to take up this matter with the Cabinet, to discuss it with the President of the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office and to consider an approach to the United States from whose Government I think they might receive a very sympathetic response. We have indeed now an opportunity of talking with them on this subject as we are discussing barter arrangements for the exchange of commodities. If we could sit together with them round a table and discuss a common programme of this kind we might not only achieve a very great object in the direction of economic improvement, but also find that by discussing problems of common interest together we can really improve our political relations. I do not believe if one takes a broad view of the question that there is any greater contribution to be made towards the problem of improved employment in this country than by practical action on these lines.
  8.25 p.m.
  Mr. R. J. Taylor: I am glad to have an opportunity of speaking in this Debate. It is no exaggeration to say

  2755
  that the Minister of Labour likes to be in a buoyant mood when he is speaking in the House, and to-day we heard him conclude his speech by saying that he is a happy man. We on this side of the House are not happy about the present situation. Hon. Members opposite have made many proposals as, to how we might be able in future to meet a situation which we believe-inevitably will arise when the armaments expenditure ends. The suggestion has been made that all that is necessary is that there should be confidence on the part of the employers that they will be able to make profits, and that then there will be employment for the workers who want to be employed; but I would remind hon. Members that before the armaments expenditure started there was in this country a large number of unemployed who were living on a standard that was immeasurably below the standard on which a man or woman ought to be called upon to live.
  That fact proves that there was a market for consumers goods. People were waiting to consume goods, either wares or eatables, and had that market been supplied, one would have expected that, in providing those goods, the employers would have been able to make profits. But unfortunately we found that, as a result of the introduction of machinery in coal mines, cotton mills, woollen mills and the shipping industry, especially in the trawler section, instead of this huge market for consumable goods being supplied, men were being dismissed on every hand. That was because of the introduction of machinery and because the employers were not prepared to provide consumable goods owing to their thinking that they would be unable to make a profit. Having the machinery and the organisation to provide the consumable goods for that market, how is it that they were unable to find sufficient confidence to provide the goods, when the people were there and willing to consume the goods? I feel sure that when we leave this stage of high-speed expenditure on armaments, which no one can claim are consumable goods—for they are non-productive goods—we shall again sink into the morass, probably more deeply than before the armaments race started.
  2756
  The hon. Member for Walsall(Sir G. Schuster) said that when the huge armaments expenditure which we: are making at the present time is ended, it will be too much to ask the nation to stand another dose of large expenditure to provide employment, by way of public works, for unemployed men. I was interested also in an argument which the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour made. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) spoke with some doubt of the future after the armaments expenditure is over, but the right hon. Gentleman pooh-poohed the idea of looking so far into the future; he was content to bathe in what he thinks is the sunshine of the present. The other night there was a Debate on old age pensions, and the Prime Minister devoted a considerable part of his speech to a discussion of what will happen in 40 years' time. He said that the population was coming down and that if it declined at the present rate, in 40 years time the proportion of old men to young men would be so heavy that the burden that would be thrown on the young men in providing pensions for the old would be more than they would be able to bear. It is a peculiar thing that within a week we should have two Ministers, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour asking us, who represent in the main the working classes—it is a regrettable fact that there are Members opposite who say that they, too, represent the workers; it is a tragedy, it ought not to be, and sooner or later it will be remedied—not to mention the future in relation to unemployment. Rut we are bound to mention it. We know what we have gone through, and because of that, we know that our job to-night is to urge the Government to make plans now and not to wait until the inevitable avalanche of unemployment comes upon us when the armament expenditure ends, as we hope it will end as quickly as possible.
  In the district which I have the honour to represent, there is a very good illustration of what is happening. Three and a half years ago there was 25 per cent. of unemployment in that district, and this year it is 12.8 per cent., a considerable reduction; but I challenge the Minister of Labour to say that in that district there is one of those men who is not employed directly as a result of the armament expenditure, or because of the work that is

  2757
  coming to the district as a result of that expenditure, or because that expenditure has enabled more wages to be spent in the town. Were it not for the ships we have got as a result of Admiralty contracts and the coal trade being busy at the time of the year when usually there is seasonal slackness, there would be 25 per cent. or 30 per cent. of unemployment in the district to-day. I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to say that one man or one woman in that district has got employment through any act of his.
  I am glad that they are employed. Nothing pleases me better than to know that they arc employed. But we have still 12.8 per cent. of unemployed when industry is working at its peak as a result of armament contracts. What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do about that 12.8 per cent? Friends of mine in the town of Blyth who do not agree with me politically and who have devoted much time—because they have the opportunity of doing so—to social work, tell me that the tragedy of all this is the case of the man who is from 55 to 60 years of age. Now that we have reached this peak of employment as a result of the armament expenditure, is the Minister able to do anything to deal with that large percentage of unemployed? After all, a figure of nearly 13 per cent. is a fairly substantial figure. If you cannot bring these men back into employment, what is to happen? Is a man to wait until he becomes 65, probably with a wife younger than himself, to get 10s. a week? In those circumstances how can. Members opposite come here and talk about the "hard core of unemployment" being steadily reduced? Probably the apparent reduction is due to migration, or to deaths, or to the fact that the pension has become operative.
  I would say to the right hon. Gentleman: Be a man and recognise that these are your brothers. I do not want to say anything unkind to the right hon. Gentleman. I know he does a considerable amount of work in the pulpit. But I say to him: Be a man and take unto yourself the maxim spoken by One who loved His fellow men when He said "Feed My lambs." Surely that applies to poor men who cannot help themselves. If we here, if this Government, if this nation cannot help them to get work, and to be independent, and to be proud, then
  2758
  are we to stand by and see them go down as we are seeing them go down and down now? I say to the Minister that he ought to abolish the means test. Young men are coming into employment and getting wages—it may be increased wages—but where there are fathers or elder brothers unemployed every increase in wages means a reduction for the old men. That is heartbreaking to the young men who are looking forward to and preparing for life. What is the use of talking about a declining birth rate when the young men are not allowed to provide for getting married? From that point of view the present situation is deplorable, as every hon. Member opposite as well as on this side must know. It is in the power of the right hon. Gentleman to ease that situation.
  I wish to put two cases to the right hon. Gentleman for his consideration. I have dealt with the question of the withdrawal of the means test. There is also the case of the man who is out of insurable employment. He is the man who, having been in employment, decided to test the theory that it is in the power of every worker in industry to rise to the top —as Napoleon is supposed to have said that every soldier carried a field-marshal's baton in his knapsack. He is the man who decided to start for himself, in the belief that every man who goes into industry has the chance of becoming a Nuffield. A lot of people believe that. But they cannot all be Nuffields. I know several men who have had a go at making businesses for themselves. Some of them have fallen by the way for one reason or another. Those men are out of insurable employment. They can get public assistance but they cannot be brought back into insurance employment, or at least back into the range of the Unemployment Assistance Board allowances until they have a certain number of stamps.
  I ask the right hon. Gentleman to apply another test to men of that class. When these men go to the exchange I understand they do not go to the ordinary counter where the regularly insured unemployed men go, but to another place and some of them have a grievance in that respect. Could we not apply this test? If such a man is willing and anxious to work but cannot be found work, surely it would not be asking too

  2759
  much to suggest that he should be taken back into insurance again, instead of demanding that he should have a certain number of stamps before he becomes insurable? I do not think that would be asking too much. If it did nothing else, it would take away from those people what they regard as the stigma which attaches to their present position. These are points which are creating grave heart searchings and a great deal of trouble and unrest and sorrow. The right hon. Gentleman said at the end of his speech that he was a happy Minister because things are as they are at the moment. I would like to see him remain happy all the days of his life—though there are times when I feel otherwise. But that is by the way, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman often felt the same about other people when he was in Opposition.
  I have seen the working of this system day after day and I know something about what is involves. Having to live with someone you do not like is a terrible thing. There are fathers having to keep their sons, and sons having to keep their fathers. Take the case of the father who is keeping his son. Matters may come to a breaking point between them and the son leaves the home. He does not go very far away, because he generally finds some neighbour who is prepared to take him in. There is nothing for him because the right hon. Gentleman's Department or rather the Unemployment Assistance Board—[An Hon. Member: "It is all the same."] Not quite, because one of the cleverest things in the world was the arrangement which was made in connection with this business. When a grievance is brought up to be corrected the right hon. Gentleman always has the excuse that it is the Unemployment Assistance Board which is responsible.
  My point is this: This man leave his home, because things have become strained and unhappy, and goes down the street. He gets no benefit, because the Board believes it is a put-up job that he left his home, that it is collusion, so that he will be able to get his 15s. a week and still be near his father. You pay him no benefit, because you believe it is collusion. Then at the end of a month, if he is still away from home, you come to the conclusion that it must have been a genuine difference of opinion, and you commence
  2760
  to pay him. There is a woman probably a neighbour with a kind heart, who has been keeping him, for practically nothing, for a month. Would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman if, at the end of the month, the Unemployment Assistance Board comes to the conclusion that it was a genuine difference of opinion and that there were good grounds for the young man going out, to pay him his back money for that period? He left home, say, on 1st June, and on 1st July you decide that it is a genuine case and pay him 15s. a week. Surely, if it is genuine on 1st July, it must have been genuine on 1st June. You have only been testing him out. I do hope the right hon. Gentleman will give consideration to that point and to the other points that I have raised.
  8.48 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Law: The hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. R. J. Taylor) devoted the early part of his speech to the expression of those fears which have obviously been uppermost in the minds of a great many hon. Members during this Debate, fears, that is, as to what is to be done when the rearmament programme comes to an end. For my own part, I think it is possible to exaggerate those fears. It is not only that my right hon. Friend tells us that we should not be anxious for the morrow, but I feel very strongly that when the circumstances which make this rearmament programme necessary come to an end, there will be other circumstances which will create a real and genuine prosperity. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) made a most interesting and lucid speech, and said that the main problem of unemployment would exist when the rearmament programme came to an end just as it exists to-day, but I think it is true to say that when the rearmament programme comes to an end, it will be possible to create circumstances in which that fundamental problem of unemployment can be solved, and it will be possible, it must be possible, to create circumstances in which you will get a revival of international trade.
  I should like to join in the congratulations which have been paid to my right hon. Friend the Minister upon the picture which he has been able to present this afternoon. He has been to-day in a position happier than he has ever been in

  2761
  before when he has addressed the House as Minister of Labour, and I think he has been in a position happier than that of any of his predecessors.
  Mr. Montague: Will not the hon. Member give the House the benefit of his views as to what circumstances he has in mind that will be created when the rearmament programme comes to an end?
  Mr. Law: I would put it this way. I would say that we have our rearmament programme to-day because the world is mad, and we shall stop this rearmament programme only if the world becomes sane. If the world becomes sane again, it will be possible to break down these national barriers which, it seems to me, are the main cause of the faulty distribution of the world's goods, and so it will be possible, I believe, to create again some prosperity for all classes. But I want to congratulate the Minister upon the report which he has been able to give to-day. It is true to say that a great deal of the improvement that has been made has been due to the rearmament programme, but I think there is no doubt that if matters had gone the other way, my right hon. Friend would have had to bear a full share of the blame, and now that they have gone this way, I think he is entitled to a very high degree of praise. The hon. Member for Morpeth did, in his speech, mention various areas in the country which have achieved a measure of prosperity, or at any rate have got greater employment, as a result purely of the rearmament programme. It is one of the results, and it is an ironical and fantastic result, of this insane situation in which the world finds itself to-day that there are parts of this country and parts of the world, which are deriving the benefits of warfare—because the present state of affairs is almost warfare—without the disadvantages of warfare. But I should like to impress upon my right hon. Friend that there are parts of the country where exactly the reverse is the case, where we have the disadvantages of warfare without its benefits.
  The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot), earlier in the Debate, said that his own constituency had certain unparalleled and unexampled difficulties. The constituency which I represent has had in recent days a great blow struck at it. The Admiralty have felt it neces-
  2762
  sary—and nobody, I think, would be prepared to dispute the need—to buy up a number of trawlers from the Humber ports. I know that the Admiralty are considering very sympathetically the effects which their action must have upon employment in those ports, and it has been made quite clear in the House, in reply to questions, that any fishermen on those vessels who are in the Royal Naval Reserve will be re-engaged as crews on these trawlers when they are in the Admiralty service. It seems to me perhaps that that will work rather harshly. It may be that not a great number of these deep-sea fishermen are members of the R.N.R. I know there is a ready answer to that. It is possible to say that because these men did not join the R.N.R. then, now, in a time of difficulty, they cannot expect to reap the benefits of the R.N.R., but I do not think that that is an altogether fair argument to use at the present time. Everyone knows that the Admiralty will not be conferring upon these men a benefit. The Admiralty will only be doing what they can to right a wrong—no doubt a necessary wrong—. which they have imposed upon these men.
  For another thing, the circumstances in which these men live and work make it extraordinarily difficult for them to take on forms of public service of that kind. Those men go to sea for periods of anything from 18 to 28 days at a time, and then, after 36 hours ashore are off to sea again; and in circumstances of that kind it is obviously very difficult for them to engage in other occupations. I would ask my right hon. Friend, who I know is sympathetic in matters of this kind, to discuss with his colleagues in the Cabinet whether it cannot be arranged to engage all these men, whether they are in the R.N.R. or not. I apologise for detaining the House for so long on a constituency point, but I feel that this is a matter of some national importance, because after all it is the nation which is going to get security from these trawlers when they are patrolling the seas. The owners of them do not suffer, because the Admiralty has paid for them. It is only the fishermen who go to sea in them who may, perhaps, suffer, and so I would implore my right hon. Friend to do what he can to see that no regulation or red-tape unnecessarily stands in the way of these men gaining employment in these ships.
  Mr. Batey: The Minister was derided by one or two speakers because, at the end of his speech to-night, he told us that he was a happy man. I do not know whether he has seen the cartoon in to-day's "Daily Herald." If he has not I would advise him to look at it, because that cartoon shows him to be an extremely happy man. But it shows something else. There is another man there, looking through a window at the Minister of Labour, and that man is saying, "I'm still quite big, you know." Further, I should like the Minister to notice that on the wall hangs a notice, "Future plans," and there is a blank there. There are no plans. I want to speak this evening upon the big man in the distressed areas, because we have still got him. I represent a division which is still one of the black spots in the county of Durham, where that bigman still exists. The Minister boasted to-day and was happy because he was able to tell us of a great drop in the unemployment figures. At the Spennymoor Employment Exchange the drop in the figures of the unemployed this July as compared with July last year was only 55. There is nothing there to make anyone happy or jubilant. I submit that we are in that deplorable condition in my division because the Government has never attempted to do anything.
  The Commissioner for the Special Areas has been unable to find work for the men. I know that the Minister will tell me that we have trading estates in the county of Durham. The trading estates have been no help to us in the Spennymoor Division. All the huge expenditure upon armaments has not meant a penny more to us in the Spennymoor Division. The Minister knows all that the Government might have done but have not done. Yesterday the Secretary for Mines told us that he was preparing a scheme for the storage of petrol, and that if necessary petrol would have to be rationed. The one thing that would help us in the county of Durham would be to get our men back into the pits, and one of the best ways of getting the men back into the pits would be to set up plants for the extraction of oil from coal. Some years ago when the Member for Seaham was the late Mr. MacDonald we urged that the Government should set up plants for the extraction of oil
  2764
  from coal in order to find work for miners, and I remember Mr. MacDonald saying, "Oh, but, Joe, you forget we have got two plants already in the county of Durham, and to set up more would simply mean competition with those plants." The plants to which he referred were in his own division.
  That is one of the strange things about a lot of these remedies for unemployment —the erection of factories and other means of finding work. Examine where they are put. Very often they are put where there is a Government supporter. Because Mr. MacDonald then had two oil-from-coal plants in his division he thought no more ought to be started in the county of Durham. Now things have changed. Now the Secretary for Mines says there may be a shortage of petrol and it is necessary to expend money upon storing petrol. I venture to suggest that the cost of setting up plant for the production of oil from coal and in that way finding work for our men in the pits would not be more than the cost of providing storage for petrol.
  There is another way in which the Government might have helped us. Last November the Minister promised that the Government would bring in a Bill to provide loan facilities for the starting of industries wherever there was great unemployment, not in the Special Areas only. That Bill was introduced only yesterday —with an eye upon the General Election. It has been kept back all those months, and now, when a General Election is looming, they bring it forward and say, "Here is the Bill for the purpose of making loans possible wherever there is much unemployment." It was promised 12 months ago and it ought to have been brought in sooner, because it might have been of assistance to us in the distressed areas.
  I notice that the Bill is to provide loans for new industries, but I would urge upon the Minister, whose name, I notice, is on the back of the Bill, that we should not limit the loans to new industries. In the mining areas we find coal pits stopped which we believe ought not to have been stopped. There is one in my division which I have in my mind at the moment. If those pits could be reopened that would be the best way of solving the unemployment problem in our mining villages. Therefore, I urge the Minister to consider

  2765
  the possibility of loans being granted to help old industries. The provision of loans to help old industries—and to start new industries for that matter—is the line which ought to have been taken years and years ago. The Government have spent a lot of money through the Commissioner for the Special Areas, but he has been more successful with his schemes for social amelioration. He has not been successful at all in starting new industries to provide work for our men. I believe that the providing of loans is the best way in which the Government can help either new or old industries.
  I have had experience of new industries being started in my own district. Although the Nuffield Trust had only £2,000,000 with which to give assistance to new industries, the help it was able to give was enormous. The Nuffield Trust was able to do splendid work in helping to start new industries. Now that the Government have come along with a Bill, and are preparing to give up to £200,000 where it is needed, I believe that, if they are willing, the Government can help industry both old and new. That will be a means of helping to get back into work men who have been out of work for long years. The Government have been far too dilatory. They should have brought forward their Bill long before now. I noticed when the Prime Minister was announcing the business for the first week after we come back on 3rd October that he did not announce that the Bill to which I have just referred would be taken. My object, therefore, at the moment, seeing that the name of the Minister of Labour is on the back of the Bill, is to urge him to see that the Bill is considered as early as possible after we come back.
  There is one other matter that I want to mention. One of the villages in my division has asked for a very small thing. The local council would be satisfied if they could have a military camp. Any village or local council prepared to be satisfied with a military camp is easily satisfied, but that was their request to the Secretary of State for War, and it was refused. I am not going to read the correspondence. A lot has been said in this House in regard to the conditions of military camps and some people have wondered who has been responsible for putting those camps where they are, and causing so much trouble so quickly. In
  2766
  the correspondence which I have in my pocket from the Secretary of State for War it seems that the person who decider the location of the camps was one of the head Army officers. He decided against a military camp being placed in the County of Durham where the local council had asked for it. I am sure that he will see that he has chosen far worse sites and, in my opinion, the least that the Minister can do is to remember that those people will be easily satisfied if they get a military camp.
  I want to say one or two words about the means test. I am glad that some of my colleagues have stressed this matter. I altogether disagree with the Minister in his remarks to-day in defending the means test. I am certain that if the right hon. Gentleman lived in an area where he came into contact with many people who have to submit to the means test he would change his opinion and would say that the means test ought to be abolished. There is no question about that. If the Minister or the Unemployment Assistance Board will not abolish the means test they can easily lop off some of the things which are brought within the means test. I hold that the means test could be abolished for the reason which I have already given, that in 1935 the expenditure of the Unemployment Assistance Board was £42,000,000, while in 1938 that sum had dropped to £34,000,000. I asked the Minister, in a question to-day, for the estimate for 1939. He estimates the expenditure of the Unemployment Assistance Board, on benefits alone and not including administration, at £39,000,000. That is a big rise since 1938. If anything, it should not be more than it was in 1938. There ought to be a difference between the figures for 1935 and for this year of nearly £10,000,000. The means test was established as an economy measure. At that time, in 1931, we were in a bad way, and the means test was established. It could not be established in days like these. We are now far away from those years, and the expenditure that has taken place upon the poor by the Unemployment Assistance Board justifies us in coming here and asking for the total abolition of the means test.
  If the Minister and the Unemployment Assistance Board cannot totally abolish the means test I want to remind them that they are taking into account as

  2767
  household resources certain things. I shall have to go back to 1937, because the figures are clearer for that year than any the Minister has been able to give us since. In 1937, sons and daughters were being compelled to con-bute £9,450,200, brothers and sisters £2,372,600, those in receipt of old age pensions, widows pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions and blind pensions £1,445,000. If they cannot completely abolish the means test, the right hon. Gentleman and the Board should agree that the pensions I have mentioned ought not to be taken into account as part of the resources of the household. In my opinion they should go further, and reckon that the earnings from sons and daughters and brothers and sisters should not be taken into account.
  There is one other fact which I want to mention because I want to be sure. The Government and the Unemployment Assistance Board are not satisfied with doing what I have just referred to, but this year are starting to take holiday pay into account. That is one of the meanest things that anybody could do. The men who are provided with holiday pay have worked during the year. When the time comes and they get holiday pay, which comes into a household to which the means test applies, that pay should not, in my opinion, be taken into account. To demand money from old age pensioners and from those in receipt of widows pensions and blind pensions was bad, but to start now and take holiday pay is something meaner than we could believe even of the Unemployment Assistance Board.
  I desire to say a word on a matter arising out of the provision of work centres and the sending of men to the workhouse. The Unemployment Assistance Board seem to me to be getting worse; the older they get, the worse they get. They are starting to put fully into force Section 40 of the Act of 1934, and to send men to the workhouse and to work centres for the most trivial things. The Minister told us that this year there have been 42 determinations to send men to work centres, and that in 26 of these cases the men have attended. As regards the workhouse cases, he told us that there had been 266 determinations up to the end of June, and that 72 of these
  2768
  men had entered the workhouse. The Minister has this power, under Section 40, to send men to a work centre or to the workhouse in case of failure of the applicants to avail themselves of the opportunity of employment. I notice that the cases of those who go to the work centre can be reviewed at the end of three months, but there is no limit to the time for which a man can be kept either at a work centre or in the workhouse. The Unemployment Assistance Board is acting far too severely in sending so many of these men either to a work centre or to the workhouse. I asked the Minister about these centres, and he told me that one had been established, but he did not say where.
  Mr. E. Brown: Yes, I told the hon. Member—at Gospel Oak.
  Mr. Batey: That is a nice name for such a bad thing as a work centre. In my opinion, the number of appeals in regard both to the work centre and the workhouse, and the number that have been successful, show that the time has come when attention ought to be directed to these appeal courts, because in the great majority of cases where men have appealed against the determination the case has been turned down. That applies, not only to appeals under Section 40, but to appeals to the courts of referees, and even to appeals to the Umpire. It seems to me that these appeal courts ought now to be thoroughly looked into, in order to see whether they are acting fairly and whether the men get a fair deal. We are in a bad way in the County of Durham, and it seems to me that there is no hope for us. Instead of getting better, we get worse. The Government might have helped County Durham far more than they have. Sometimes I wonder whether it is the case that we have had no sympathy from the Government because the miners are opposed to the Government. I wonder —
  Mr. E. Brown: That assertion is so unfounded that I must say at once that the hon. Member knows perfectly well that the facts are entirely different. He knows that there are certain circumstances in which, in County Durham, we have given grants of 100 per cent. for certain purposes. That has not been done in the

  2769
  case of any other county. A suggestion of the kind that the hon. Member has made is not worthy of him.
  Mr. Batey: One has in mind the fact that the Government have given so many millions of money to agriculture, and that, if we had had half of what has been given to agriculture—
  Mr. E. Brown: The Government have done a mighty thing for the coal industry, too. The introduction of the selling schemes has put millions of money into the coal industry, and the result has been a greater rise in the reward of the miner, as well as in the prosperity of the industry, than at any period of our modern history. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) is wrong. The selling schemes commenced in the last month of my period at the Mines Department, when I put through the first selling scheme after 18 months of very hard work, and it became a model for the whole of the schemes.
  Mr. Batey: The Government do not mind giving away money when it is somebody else's money. What have the Government given to the coal trade? The selling schemes have not cost the Government a penny. But they gave £66,500,000 to the royalty owners —
  Mr. E. Brown: A thing that is sometimes more valuable than money is hard constructive work and successful legislation, and that is what the Government have given to the coal industry.
  Mr. Batey: I do not want to occupy any more time, but, of all the millions that the Government have given away, they have given nothing to the mining industry. I urge that the Minister should consider whether something can be done to put men back into work. That is the only thing that matters to us. You may do what you like, and consider what you like, but, unless steps are taken to put men back into work, we shall never be satisfied. I hope that the Minister will give this matter his consideration, and see whether something can be done for us that has not been done for us up to the present.
  9.24 p.m.
  Mr. Brooke: There are magnificent people living in the County of Durham, from which the hon. Member comes.
  2770
  We all know that things are not wholly well yet in that county, but it must be a source of great satisfaction to the hon. Member that the percentage of unemployment there is less than half what it was when his party went out of office.
  Mr. Batey: No credit for that is due to the present Government.
  Mr. Brooke: The striking speech of the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster), earlier in the Debate, made me all the more sorry that a physical separation necessarily exists between the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade, because it is very hard to deal adequately with this subject of unemployment without straying into Board of Trade matters, as the hon. Member for Walsall admitted that he did. I feel that in so many cases the Minister of Labour —I am sure he does not regret it—is, as it were, a residuary legatee of Board of Trade problems. Again, earlier in the Debate the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot), spoke of the particular problems of his constituency, which always has to struggle against the fact that it is a one-industry town. For myself, I sincerely hope that the report of the Royal Commission on the Geographical Distribution of the Industrial Population, which has not been mentioned once to-day, when it comes next month, as it is promised, will give this House and the Government immense help in handling the kind of local or regional problems which he and several hon. Members have mentioned.
  Here we are to-day in the fifth year of my right hon. Friend's tenure of office, and he is obviously having a very happy year; but, as he himself said, there are still problems, not only in the future but round about him. At this moment when unemployment has fallen so far in the last few months it is the very time when it seems to me that we can plan direct attacks on special problems—thespecial local problems in the Special Areas and, on the human side, the special personal problem of the older man who is out of work.
  I was looking at the figures the other day and I saw that, in London and the South of England, of all those who are unemployed fewer than 10 per cent. had been out of work for more than 12 months. But if you look further a field, to Wales, the Northern Division, and to

  2771
  Scotland, you find that the percentage of unemployed who have been out of work for more than 12 months goes up to 30 and over—one man in three. It seems to me a very good thing indeed that before we in this House go on our holidays—and hon. Members opposite have earned those holidays as well as any—we should bear in mind that there are homes throughout this country where men and women are not going on holidays. Those are the unemployed, and those are the people to whose case we are trying realistically to apply our minds to-night in order to benefit them. Just at this time, when nearly every one among the young men who have good industrial qualifications has a fair chance of being in work, I am wondering whether it would be possible for my right hon. Friend to take some action which would bring home to employers generally throughout the country the advantage which they may themselves derive if they pay special attention to the possibility of filling vacancies with older men.
  Mr. E. Brown: That is what we are always doing. It is a regular instruction and is carried out regularly at the exchanges. If I could do anything to increase it I would do it.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Will the hon. Member say what he means by the "older men"? What kind of age groups has he in mind?
  Mr. Brooke: I do not think it is necessary to define these age groups precisely, but I was thinking of men of 45 and over as being those whom, in these Debates, we normally refer to as the older men. I was not suggesting any change in employment exchange practice. I was considering whether a statement by my right hon. Friend at this moment might not serve a beneficial purpose by bringing sharply home to all employers the advantage available to them if they will give a fresh study to that particular opportunity.
  I was making a calculation this morning, and I find that by the time this Debate closes to-night we shall have given more than 50 hours in this Session to discussing the problem of unemployment. During the same Session we shall have given less than seven hours to discussing
  2772
  the educational services of this country. That seems to me a wrong distribution. I do not think it is irrelevant to say this now, not merely because I have never met an unemployed man who did not care more about his children having a fair start in the world than about his own case, but for this reason also: I am one of those who believe that the next great advance in the campaign against unemployment will be on the educational side, connected intimately with the educational opportunities of boys and girls between, say, the ages of 14 and 20. There is a fundamental question which never gets an answer in these unemployment Debates. It is this: Does the Opposition consider that a young man should have the right to go on drawing unemployment allowances indefinitely without any obligation on his part to perform any kind of service in return?
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Why do you not find it for him?
  Mr. Brooke: I think there is a better answer, and I will suggest it to the hon. Member. He might have suggested that those same young men had a right to better treatment from the world during their first years in industry. That would be a fair reply, though it would be only a partial reply. A boy has a right to something better than blind-alley employment. That is what we need to put right. It is four months now since my right hon. Friend told me in answer to a question that he had asked the National Advisory Council for Juvenile Employment to investigate the question of blind-alley employment and I am sure that the whole House would be glad to know whether we can anticipate a nearly reply from that body on this exceedingly important subject. To my mind this nation should strike, and strike deep, at the very root of this destroying cancer of unemployment among unskilled young men. There is going to be an opportunity, as my right hon. Friend has said, this autumn, with the dwindling of unemployment, to look closely into the personnel of the unemployed. Any young man who finds himself unemployed this autumn will be, we may be sure, the victim of special circumstances—specialcircumstances coming under my right hon. Friend's description in his words, "Who, what and where?" We cannot as a nation acquiesce in a continuance of uncondi-

  2773
  tional allowances to any man of whatever age who could get work and who is failing to exert himself to obtain it. But, equally, this nation cannot acquiesce in any industrial practice which takes boys in their teens and works them without thought of their industrial future. Intense as is the dislike of all of us for totalitarian systems, we have something to learn from other States in regard to the supreme attention which they are paying to the quality of their young manhood in these days.
  Mr. E. Smith: We are better off than they are.
  Mr. Brooke: Certainly we are better off than they are, but in my opinion we should be betraying our own boys and girls, and betraying our national reputation in the world, if through any fear of taking drastic action, we were to lag behind in the two matters that I have mentioned.
  9.36 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: This Debate has ranged very wide, and I will try not to cover too much of the ground that has already been covered. I was interested particularly in the speech of the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster). There was an unfortunate contradiction in his speech. He implied that the problem was as much a world problem as a national problem: that, to a large extent, it was beyond the power of any one nation to solve its own unemployment problem completely, without taking into account its trade, economic and commercial relations with other nations; but he went on to congratulate the Government on having, without any assistance, themselves solved the unemployment problem. Had he gone as far as to say that we with other nations, should renounce a certain degree of our national sovereignty in economic and commercial affairs, and that we should get together with other nations around the conference table to discuss the fundamental question of the distribution of raw materials and access to markets, we should have been in almost complete agreement with him. He did not do that, but many of his suggestions were interesting to us.
  The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. De Chair) rather twitted hon. Members on this side about the
  2774
  inadequacy of their proposals for dealing with unemployment. I think his chief contribution related to concentration camps. He suggested that we should copy the Rooseveltian method which has been, in a measure, successful in America. I agree that there are good features in that system, but I do not agree that it is, by itself, likely to be a permanent solution of unemployment. It cannot, by itself, provide a permanent livelihood for the unemployed in America, or for the unemployed in this country. Another suggestion was that we should plant trees on slag heaps, in order to provide picnic places for the people in the vicinity of these unwelcome scars on the country-side. In the first place, slag heaps should not exist; in the second place, they should be removed as soon as possible if they do exist; but I do not say that I would disagree with him in suggesting that they should be beautified in the meantime.
  Mr. De Chair:Am I to understand that the hon. Member thinks that the camps may be useful as a palliative of unemployment, I do not say as a solution?
  Mr. MacMillan: I do not say that at all. Some young men have written to me saying that they have enjoyed certain features in them, but I repeat that I do not think they are any real contribution to a permanent solution of the unemployment problem. I am sure the hon. Member must agree. We are in the unfortunate position in these Debates on unemployment of talking, as it were, between two wars. As far back as I can remember, we have been talking under the shadow of the last War, and everything has had to be related to its effects. Now we are under the shadow of another war. We are all agreed that if it comes to the eventuality of war, all our calculations will be upset. But we must take into account very seriously the fact that the armaments programme, as the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence said almost two years ago, was going to be one of the main solutions of our unemployment problem. The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence almost boasted of the effect that that programme had had then, and said that possibly in 18 months from then we should have reached the peak of the programme, and the effect would be more marked still. That has proved to be perfectly correct. Nothing else has been done on anything like so

  2775
  grand a scale as the armaments programme, and nothing else has done so much to reduce, temporarily, the number of unemployed in this country.
  I was interested to hear the complaints made by more than one hon. Member, that while some areas do benefit from the rearmament programme ether areas actually suffer. That is true of the social services as a whole, and therefore we might expect a rise in unemployment as a result of economies in the social services which, at least by implication, have been suggested from time to time. Possibly no area is likely to suffer more than the Highlands and Islands of Scotland as a result of the tremendous expenditure on armaments. We have looked forward to some definite programme and policy which would tackle this question of unemployment, and of depopulation as a result, partly of unemployment, in that part of the country. Hon. Members from mining areas have made their complaints, and I deeply sympathise with those areas. But some of them have been classed as Special Areas, because of the nature and duration and severity of the unemployment there. The Minister is not in a position to tell us, district by district and island by island, what the unemployment position in Scotland is. I do not think that he will disagree with me when I say that, as you go round village by village and island by island, you find, as far as insurable employment and the opportunity of making a livelihood are concerned, about two-thirds, and in many cases more than two-thirds, of the entire male population unemployed.
  This House and the country have been shocked and alarmed by the neglect of that part of the country. It is at least as much a Special Area as any of the recognised Special Areas. It is a distressed area, and it was unanimously recognised as such by this House three years ago when a Resolution was passed calling for urgent action by the Government to solve the economic problems of the North and West. Proof of the inadequate treatment of, and even the inadequate consideration given to, that problem, which to us is a tremendous problem affecting over one-fifth of the whole area of Great Britain, was the statement the other day after Questions which took up about ten grudged minutes of the time of the House by the
  2776
  Secretary of State for Scotland dealing with the whole scope of the reconstruction of the Highlands and Islands. My criticism of the Government and of the Secretary of State in that respect is that, in the first place, he should have given us an opportunity of considering with him the recommendations made by the Economic Committee which sat upon the problems of economy, unemployment, depopulation and so on. It could have been brought before Scottish Members, officially or unofficially, without taking up the time of other Members of the House. The right hon. Gentleman could have put the case before us and allowed discussion and invited questions. It would have been a tactful thing to do, instead of the Secretary of State for Scotland occupying ten precious minutes of the time of the whole House during which he practically told us that he is shelving the whole report, apart from providing a few motor engines for the lobster fishermen, and £30,000 for piers and harbours spread over the whole year, at a time when a small pier of which I am thinking has cost us £15,000. The right hon. Gentleman makes the most paltry concessions when we are only claiming, after all, our own rights.
  I would emphasise that under the rearmament programme some areas benefit, but no area benefits less than that area with which I am dealing. There will be a call to these men in the Islands in time of war to man the Naval Reserve and to take out their drifters and fishing fleet. They will be indispensable in time of war. About 1,600 of the Naval Reserve are taken from the Outer Islands alone, yet as a result of the rearmament programme, and all the deliberations of the Government, we are to get out of the coffers of the Treasury something like £30,000, with little scraps here and there for odd jobs by minor officials of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland. The problems of unemployment, depopulation and economic distress, recognised unanimously in this House, are not being touched. Some of the Special Areas have enjoyed a fairly long period of relative prosperity. I do not say that it has been a period of a high standard of living for the workers, but they have enjoyed work and wages to some extent.
  This problem is an old problem. Year after year and generation after generation

  2777
  these places have been depopulated because young men have had to emigrate because of the failure to provide employment for them or give them any hope of employment in the future if they stayed in this country. The people have been long-suffering, and yet we are allowed only 10 minutes after Question Time for the Secretary of State for Scotland to deal with the whole problem and to announce, in effect, that the Government are doing absolutely nothing about it. The Secretary of State told us some weeks ago that they were dealing with the question of the migration of young men from these districts because of unemployment and the lack of any hopeful prospects of employment within a reasonable period of time. He assured us that now depopulation and migration have more or less ceased. The argument he used was that the patient had ceased to bleed, and that, therefore, the patient was well, whereas the truth of the matter is that the patient has very little blood left. The only contribution of the right hon. Gentleman to the restoration of the health of that patient has been some sort of suggestion about blood-letting.
  I hope that the Minister of Labour will take into consideration the position of these Islands and these rural districts in the North of Scotland, especially with regard to Unemployment Insurance. He knows that it is quite impossible for men in these areas, failing regular work being provided by the State, to qualify under the Insurance Scheme at all. They are asked to contribute, and in most cases they have to contribute nearly all the time. They are most likely to get only about 10 or 20 weeks work, and then to be cast on to the scrap-heap without any possibility of Unemployment Insurance benefit being paid to them. This occurs in hundreds of cases. They cannot enjoy Unemployment Insurance benefit when they are out of employment, because they have not any insurable background in a district where the Unemployment Insurance system does not work. The Minister himself has acknowledged that the conditions there are anomalous and that the economic conditions in the Islands are different from those even on the Mainland. He knows that in respect of the depopulated areas of the Highlands and Islands it is quite an absurd method of dealing with the Unemployment Insurance
  2778
  question. We cannot possibly expect the same conditions to prevail among the crofters and fishermen in the Western Isles, as many such workers have not the possibility of regular employment and the payment of contributions.
  We have a solution if the Government will apply it. The whole matter rests— and I say it frankly without apology— upon the financial question. It is just as important—and hon. Members on all sides of the House know it—that we should use every available acre that could provide food for our people in the national interest, as building guns and battleships, which, at any rate will go to the bottom of the sea or be captured by the enemy, or be scrapped as obsolete a few years from now. It is just as important that we should have an established and settled long-term policy for agriculture as that we should protect ourselves against being shelled. You might just as well die through being shelled as die of starvation; I think that there is no great choice in it. There is no better way of creating employment for people who arc on the borderline of poverty in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland than by dealing with the question of agriculture. Throughout that area millions of acres have gone from under the plough, and bracken is creeping over thousands of these acres every month and every year, and the Government simply stand by, or merely give us 10 minutes of the precious time of the Secretary of State for Scotland to tell us that they are going to give two bracken cutting-machines, or send a couple of inspectors to tell us how to catch lobsters or send little handbooks on agricultural methods.
  The right hon. Gentleman is not competent to do his job unless he sits down and tackles it in earnest. The first duty of the Secretary of State for Scotland in this House is to fight the Treasury. It is a matter of securing the finances in the national interests for the people of our own country, and the employment of the people who are now unemployed. They have had to do something in regard to housing. It is admitted that subsidies are necessary in the interests of health and of better housing. If you give better houses and better roads, what is the objection to doing something by providing the money for the fishing industry and agriculture in these areas? What is the

  2779
  objection to paying for land reclamation, which benefits not only the people in the country but feeds the people in the towns? If the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Labour want to solve permanently the problem of unemployment in these areas and many other areas similarly affected and situated, they will have to deal with the fundamental question of agriculture and other fundamental questions, instead of the superficial palliatives which are put forward at Question Time.
  9.57 p.m.
  Mr. Lipson: The hon. Member has not left me sufficient time to raise all the points that I desired to raise, but I shall try in the few minutes at my disposal to bring the Debate back to the subject of unemployment with which the House is concerned. The Debate has shown that while hon. Members on both sides of the House rejoice, quite properly, at the increase in the number of people employed and the decrease in the number of unemployed, we have not lost sight of the fact that there area large number of men and women who are not sharing in the benefit of this improvement, and we are all anxious that something should be done for them. In particular, I should like to make an appeal on behalf of the older unemployed men. I was glad to hear that when vacancies occur the Employment Exchange draws the attention of employers to the opportunity which the present time provides for filling these vacancies with older men. I would ask whether a special appeal might be made to the distributing trades to employ older men for their services. In view of the fact that in the event of an emergency they might lose their younger men, they might be willing to give more consideration to the employment of the older men. I should also like to know whether it is possible to employ some of the older men in industry to improve what I would call the amenities of industry. They might not be able to be taken into industry proper, but it seems to me that there is an opportunity in this direction.
  The improvement in the employment figures shows that it is possible to reduce the number of unemployed. Hon. Members opposite have expressed doubt as to whether this improvement is likely to survive any change with regard to the armaments programme. It is a curious
  2780
  position that hon. Members should view with gloom the prospect of a reduction in expenditure on armaments, particularly as that would indicate a lessening of world tension. If we can only get employment when there is either war or the fear of war, it rather gives a vested interest to the period of tension. One hon. Member opposite went so far as to give credit for the improvement in employment, not to the Ministry of Labour, but to Herr Hitler. I think the Debate, although it has been concerned with unemployment, has really been as much concerned with defence as many other Debates that we have had in dealing with defence directly.
  Although there may be theoretical arguments as to the value of one kind of government as compared with another, the plain man asks himself this question —is there a place for me in this particular system of government, or not? Does democracy enable me to make my contribution to the common weal? It is by the answer to that question that he will judge democracy. We ought not to forget that one of the reasons which brought Herr Hitler into power in Germany was that there were 6,000,000 unemployed, and he has at least been able to deal with that unemployment problem. It has been pointed out by hon. Members on both sides of the House that that has been done at the sacrifice of freedom, but we who believe in democracy and freedom ought to remember that in Germany when the choice was put to the people between employment and slavery or unemployment and freedom, they chose employment and slavery. Therefore, if democracy is to survive, it must show that in its own way, while preserving human freedom, it is able to find use for the services of all its citizens.
  As to whether there is likely to be the slump which some hon. Members fear when this period of rearmament passes away, nobody can say, because nobody can say what kind of a world it will be then. It will make all the difference whether the rearmament ends as the result of agreement between the nations before war or whether it follows after war. Therefore, it is extremely difficult to form definite plans, but I hope the Minister will bear in mind that if, as it has been shown possible, during a period of tension employment can be found, when there

  2781
  is a period of political sanity in the world there ought also to be a period of economic sanity, in which an opportunity can be found for utilising the services of all citizens who are willing to render their contribution to the national weal. I would ask the Minister whether there is any co-operation between the Minister of Labour and the committee of scientists which was appointed by the British Association, and which I believe is co-operating with the Trades Union Congress. If there could be some co-operation between those three bodies, the scientists, representing the British Association, the Trades Union Congress and the Ministry of Labour, as to the impact of scientific discoveries upon industry, it might be possible to develop schemes and proposals which would be of advantage to the Minister in helping him to deal with the great problems of the future. Therefore, I hope that although it may not be possible for the Minister to make complete plans for the future he will realise that men have the right to expect that when the period of tension is over, arrangements will be made by which there will be an opportunity for conditions to be created, as far as lies within the power of the Government, which will enable industry to function in such a way that there can be at least as much employment when the world is sane as to-day when the world is insane.
  10.4 p.m.
  Mr. Lawson: The hon. Member who has just addressed the House has sat patiently all the day, and I am sure that my hon. Friends on this side will agree, and the House generally will agree, that the last few minutes particularly of his speech and the proposals he made were worthy of the patience that he has shown in order to have an opportunity of speaking. I shall return to his proposal later in my speech. I think the House will agree that my hon. Friend who opened the Debate gave a fair and balanced description of the position of employment and unemployment in the country at the present time. He gave due weight to the reduction of unemployment. Who is there who would not gladly give due weight to it? It certainly would not be any of us who have seen so much of the evil of unemployment at first hand. He made one thing quite clear, and I think the House ought
  2782
  to be brought back to the fact. There are still 1,250,000 men and boys unemployed. I think that at one stage the right hon. Gentleman was inclined to forget that fact. That is why I interjected. I do not often do it. He gave the figures of the unemployed as well as of the employed and the reductions. He did more than that. He let me have the sheet from which he extracted his figures, and I thank him for his courtesy. That is perhaps one of the features of the life of this country generally that, although we disagree, there is a certain amount of tolerance.
  There are 1,250,000 unemployed, but let the House listen to the facts. In London, the South Eastern and South Western districts and the Midlands there are one-third of the whole, while in the North East and North West there are as many unemployed as in the four Southern area districts. In two areas, where there are half as many employed as there are in London, the South East, the South West and the Midland areas, there are actually as many unemployed, and in the other three areas there are more unemployed and slightly less than half the employed. That means that there are still great blocks of people in areas unemployed. The hon. Member who spoke last but one, who I know has given very serious attention to the problem for some years, said there were less than half the unemployed in Durham than there were some years ago. I have not had time to examine the figures. It may be true, but what is the cause of it? Tens of thousands of the best blood that we had have gone from Durham. They are swarming all over London. Several of my friends get as much of the "Geordie" as of the Cockney accent. You hear it in the trams, the buses and the tubes.
  I had a nephew, a young pitman, whom the Ministry of Labour brought down some years ago. He no sooner got down than he disappeared from the place he was brought to, but he knew where he was going all right. He turned up here at the House the other day, and he is now manager of a draper's shop, or something like that, and speaks the best cockney language. That is only an illustration but it means that the most enterprising, virile type of our people have been taken from Wales and Durham and other parts of the country. It means that

  2783
  the areas that gave them birth and paid for their education and their social services have paid for them for nothing. The country has benefited but the area has lost. I think the facts should be put on record afresh. In the North Eastern and North Western divisions there are 410,000 unemployed and in the Northern and the Scotland and Wales Divisions there are 440,000. That is 850,000 out of the total of 1,250,000. We cannot feel quite as self-satisfied with the situation like that as some Members—I think the Minister himself. He said he was a happy Minister.
  Mr. E. Brown: The hon. Gentleman has entirely misconstrued the whole trend of my argument, which was directed to one fact only, that we would be dealing with a problem of 550,000 people.
  Mr. Lawson: That is why I am taking the line that I am. I am coming to that point. The areas vary in themselves. In spite of the reduction of the whole unemployment, in certain sections of the areas there is a lamentable state of affairs even now. For instance, the average is about 9.2 per cent. in the country. In Wales it is 16.8, but in Anglesey it is 32.9, in Merthyr Tydfil 36. Lancashire has 13.9, but there are places like West-houghton, which has 29 per cent., Cumberland has 15.1, but there is an area— Clittermoor—with 34 per cent. Durham has 17 per cent., Bishop Auckland 30 per cent., Shildon 31 per cent., and there are places in these areas with 50 per cent. A large town like Sunderland has 26 per cent., Hartlepool 23.8 per cent., and Gateshead 21.8. Whole areas, so to speak, are waterlogged, and the condition of the people is indeed lamentable. I am sorry to say that they are not only suffering physically, but, what to my mind is just as important, their spirit and minds have been so undermined that the old independence with which we have been so familiar in coal-mining districts is not quite so apparent as it used to be.
  I want hon. Members to remember that this has been the condition of these places for years. They are overwhelmed with debt, they have to feed the children as a result of malnutrition. In his speech the Minister of Labour constantly referred to what the problem would be in about three months' time; that there would be great masses of people shut away in certain
  2784
  areas and that in other areas the whole of the unemployed would be absorbed. He talked about a reserve, and he emphasised it so often that I want to know what he meant by his emphasis. Was he giving us a hint about wholesale transportation? I did not expect anything like it, and I am not as a rule suspicious, but I must say that the right hon. Gentleman kept coming back to this point so often that I thought there might be a hint of industrial conscription. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us in his reply.
  Mr. E. Brown: I will answer the hon. Member straight away. There is no such thought in my mind or in that of the Government. The only reason why I referred to it was to emphasise the fact that everything possible must be done to see that this great body of suffering unemployed men is made available for jobs and that jobs are made available for them.
  Mr. Lawson: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman denies there is in contemplation any plan of industrial conscription or transportation. I hope he will take steps to transport the jobs to the unemployed. It is a significant fact that although we have spent now about £1,000,000,000 there is a greater rate of increase in employment in the southern areas than there is in the depressed areas. Why have not the Government established munition factories and aeroplane factories to a greater extent in the depressed areas? They have planted an odd one here and there, but it is quite obvious that the greater part of this work has been given to areas where there is already plenty of work. A little has been done here and there in the depressed areas, but nothing in comparison with the great amount of money that has been spent generally.
  As I have said, I hope there is no dream of sending great masses of people from these areas in order to suit the particular purposes of employers who will not go to those areas. We have been told many times how other countries have settled their unemployment problem. But have they? They have enslaved their people. It is easy to settle the unemployment problem in that way if you wish. I have never seen a cow that was unemployed, and if the people are brought down to the animal state, to the slave state, of course, you can do any-

  2785
  thing with them. I hope that in this country we shall never depart from the principles of liberty, whether it is employment or unemployment; for under that system, with all its defects, results will tell in the long run, and the country that is free will keep its balance and win its way through to security, whereas the others will fail. Those who think that the totalitarian countries have touched the edge of their problem know nothing of human history and the effects which such policies have. I ought to tell the right hon. Gentleman, for his benefit, that the Miners Federation have very definitely objected to the principle of transference without regard to the location of industry, and have passed this resolution:
  " This conference regrets the failure of the Government to take effective steps to deal with the distressing conditions in the coal-fields in the Spcial Areas. It is of the opinion that the policy of transferring men and women from these localities is anti-social and wasteful, and we urge the Government to obtain from Parliament such powers as may be necessary to control the location of industry, so that the new industries shall be established in the areas where a large proportion of the population is unemployed."
  I ask the right hon. Gentleman how it is that during the whole of his speech there seemed to be not the slightest suggestion that he had in mind the report of the Committee on the location of industry. I know that that report will not come out until about September, but in a situation such as the present one would have thought that the Government would have had at the back of their mind the prospect of a report making suggestions for dealing with the situation. The Government cannot ignore the question of the location of industry. I do not know what will be the recommendations of the report, but we cannot have the country running to about half-a-dozen big centres, as is happening at present, taking men away from agriculture, taking the men and boys away from the Special Areas and the rural areas, allowing London and Birmingham and such places to grow to an abnormal size so that they lose all sense of entity and have no corporate sense, and destroying in the process very line communities. Something must be done about that. I was astonished that the right hon. Gentleman had nothing to say on that subject. He seemed to think that the present improvement in the situation was not the result of rearmament. He said there were two factors running
  2786
  together. He seemed to suggest there were outside forces at work. He gave us a sort of address upon other forces that are telling now and will tell in the future upon this situation. I would advise him not to take too much notice of those of his friends who are economists. If he has as much experience as the miners have had of economists—
  Mr. E. Brown: My remarks were in relation to certain observations made by economists who have been consulted by the Trades Union Congress.
  Mr. Lawson: That may be so, but the right hon. Gentleman gave us the impression that he was referring to the Government economists who advised him about these factors. All I know about economists is this. For 30 years the miners asked for a minimum wage and all the economists were against it. We had a series of strikes. Everybody said we were wrong. The economists and the newspapers lectured us. Then the Government accepted the principle and passed a Minimum Wage Act. The economists then put it into the text-books and said it was an economic law. That is the kind of experience which we have had and the very same thing would apply to the regulation of industry and the general battle for the improvement of the standard of life. The Government probably now have in their catalogue of achievements the nationalisation of mining royalties. We talked about that for long years and were told that we did not know anything about it. The general rule is that the miners have strikes and suffer for 30 or 40 years for some principle, and then a Tory Government sees it and puts it into an Act of Parliament.
  Mr. E. Smith: A National Government in this case.
  Mr. Lawson: It is a failing of mine to speak the native tongue. When a Tory Government puts it into an Act it becomes an economic law. I warn the right hon. Gentleman that the present situation is mainly due to the fact that you have had rearmament on a big scale. I do not believe that any Minister can deny that fact, with any feeling that he is facing the whole facts. The "Times" issued a Special Areas supplement on 27th June. I believe the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Brooke), made a contribution to that number.
  Mr. E. Brown: A very admirable one too.
  Mr. Lawson: This is what was said in that supplement:
  " At present there are large areas on Tyne-side which are no longer distressed, where unemployment has dropped, but they are always open to a return of bad times when coal, steel, engineering and shipbuilding lose the artificial stimulus of rearmament."
  They placed the emphasis just where it should be placed.
  "On the other hand, South West Durham villages still have 60, 70, some even 80 per cent. of their workers idle."
  I read only that because, as a matter of fact, the same thing applies to Wales and to the various Special Areas. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman at this stage, if he cannot do anything definite for the moment in connection with the location of industry, whether it is not possible that the Government can face the question of the means test, as my hon. Friends have asked, either wholly or in part. That is, can they not waive taking the pensions, or something like that, into consideration? Supposing the right hon. Gentleman was on this side of the House and was arguing the means test on its merits, would he say that it had accomplished what it set out to accomplish, that it was in fact and in practice, from the point of view of any Government, a sound proposal financially? Nobody could argue that. Think of all the people up and down the country who set aside the thoroughly well trained Ministry of Labour personnel. I must say, as I have always said in the worst of times, of the Ministry of Labour men in the exchanges, having to face and deal with great masses of men under lament-able conditions, that it is a marvel what they continue to do and how they do the work in the circumstances, keeping their heads with patience and courtesy when dealing with these great masses of men.
  I venture to say that the Ministry of Labour could have carried out the whole of this business with very little addition to their present staff, instead of which they have a great and expensive staff, many of them ill-equipped for their purpose, and the amount of money they have saved is hardly is. in the £ for the cost of running the show. There is not a financier, there is not an accountant, who, if he will take the whole record of this
  2788
  matter and examine it, will not, when he has done so, say that this thing has cost the State, after hounding people and inquiring about their private matters, £1 for every shilling saved. I think it has cost nearly £300,000,000 to put the scheme into operation—£300,000,000, for which they have got no return at all. It has averaged £45,000,000 or £50,000,000 a year.
  Mr. E. Brown:Surely the hon. Member does not think that that is a fair argument to put forward. What was it costing the local authorities before this machinery was set up?
  Mr. Lawson:We were charged with having £150,000,000 of debt. They have not taken more than a few millions off that debt, though they have increased the contributions of the workers by several coppers a week. I say frankly to the right hon. Gentleman that on sheer grounds of finance I think the means test might well be examined. I think, too, that on humane grounds they might well consider it, as some relief for the areas that are badly hit. Coming back to the point made by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) I think that no Department can do this job. It is not a job for Departments at all. The hon. Gentleman said we had had 50 hours' Debate on unemployment in the last few weeks and about seven upon education. It think it would be far better to give more time to education and other matters and less time to unemployment; and I think we would give less time to unemployment if we had a permanent body with experience and authority sitting facing the problems and making their proposals. We have these Debates from time to time—too frequently—because there is no such authority and the proposal of the Trade Union Congress ought to be considered seriously.
  In conclusion, I would remind the House that we are living now on a war basis—or just about it. The right hon. Gentleman knows very well what happens after war. When the people are demobilised from the factories we are going to have masses of unemployed men marching. There is going to be very great trouble indeed in the country, and I think some of the new areas will be the worst to deal with, because there they are unorganised, they have no trads unions, they have no leaders. While you can keep people quiet for a long time, they

  2789
  are the worst kind of people to deal with in a situation such as we shall have after this rearmament is over, if the Government do not do something definite about the reduction of hours and increase of pensions and all that kind of thing. Why should there be suffering? Why should the nation have to learn through suffering when the Government know that finally they will have to face the situation, and ought to be doing so well ahead of time in order to be ready to keep a grip on it. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that if the Government does not face this situation one thing is certain, that he will learn the truth of that old text which he knows so well, "Be sure your sins will find you out."
  10.39 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Lennox-Boyd):I think the House will agree that this has been an exceptionally good Ministry of Labour Debate. There have been speeches of real value from both sides of the House, and if I refer at this stage to four speeches from my own side that is not to be taken to mean that I do not appreciate to the full the helpful contributions from the other side. I think the House will agree that four speeches on this side—those of the hon. Members for West Lewisham (Mr. Brooke), Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson), Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) and South-West Norfolk (Mr. De Chair)—even though they may arouse disagreement on the other side, have been really valuable individual contributions to our discussion. The criticisms that have been advanced against the Government have taken three or four forms. It has been said that little or nothing has been done to stimulate that export trade upon which our position depends, that few efforts have been made to take work to places where work is required or to the people who need it, and that no plans, or scarcely any plans, have been prepared, to meet the new situation which will arise when the present period of tension ceases. I shall do my best in what I hope will be a brief speech to bring some answer to those various charges. Before I do so I should like to add to the collection of local statistics which the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) has already acquired and put forward one or two facts, bearing particularly on his own home district, which may perhaps be of some interest.
  2790
  He said that certain facts had to be put on record, but I think the figures to which I refer merit an equal fate. I do not quarrel with the contention of the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. C. Brown) and other hon. Members that the improvement in these districts and other districts can very largely be attributed to the rearmament programme. It would be absurd to challenge that statement. I am afraid that I cannot meet the request of the hon. Member for Mansfield to specify more or less accurately how much of the new employment in the last year has been caused by the rearmament programme. For reasons which I think nearly every Member of the House will appreciate, it would not be possible to advance a figure which would be completely accurate. The figures which I think will be of interest to the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street relate to the Employment Exchange area of Chester-le-Street, Durham County as a. whole and the Special Areas of Durham and Tyne-side. In Chester-le-Street, unemployment fell in the last seven years from 28.3 per cent. in 1932 to 9.1 to-day.
  Mr. Lawson: I said so.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I do not deny that, but the hon. Gentleman did not quote the actual figure.
  Mr. Lawson: I said that we had a munitions factory.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Yes, but I think, notwithstanding all that, he will be interested in these figures. In Durham County, unemployment fell since 1932 from 179,000 to 68,000, that is from 42.4 per cent. seven years, ago to 15.9 per cent to-day. The hon. Member has drawn a picture of young men and women leaving their county and seeking work elsewhere. Without in the least quarrelling with his suggestion that a large number of people have left that county in recent years and, following the adventurous tradition of their forefathers, have sought a new life elsewhere, it is none the less not true to say that, during the period which we have under review, any such migration has taken place. Since this Government became responsible for the destinies of the County of Durham the insured population has almost certainly gone up. I say "almost

  2791
  certainly" because the last figures that we have are those for July, 1938, which were almost exactly the same as those for July, 1932. In July, 1932, the insured population of the County of Durham numbered 429,200. In July, 1938, the figure was 429,170. The probability is that the figure for this year, which will be known at a later date, will be an increase. What is true of County Durham is still more true of the actual district of Chester-le-Street. Therefore, it cannot be fairly advanced that while this Government has been in charge there has been a continuance of that flight from the county.
  Mr. W. Joseph Stewart: Is not the Minister aware that 49,000 people have been transferred out of the county?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Yes, but more people have come along and taken then places and taken fresh jobs. [Hon. Members: "No!"] I am afraid that the hon. Member must accept the figures, which speak for themselves. In the Durham and Tyneside Special Area, unemployment, since the Commissioner was appointed, has fallen from 33 per cent. to 16 per cent. That has not been achieved by wholesale departures from Durham or Tyneside for, during that same period, the insured population in the Special Areas of Durham and Tyneside has gone up by 18,000.
  Mr. Lawson: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the transference of people has made no difference in the percentage?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I do not say that at all, but I say that further people have come into the labour market and taken their places. Hon. Members from the county of Durham spoke of the Durham coal trade and about certain districts in South West Durham, which are still in a deplorable condition. But there is one remarkable fact about the Durham coal industry, or rather, the coal industry in the Durham and Tyneside Special Area, namely, that in this area unemployment among colliers has fallen, since the Commissioner was appointed, from 26 per cent. to 9 per cent., and to-day the rate of unemployment among colliers in the Special Area of Durham and Tyneside is actually 4 per cent. lower than the rate of unemployment among the colliery
  2792
  workers of the United Kingdom as a whole.
  Mr. James Griffiths:Suppose that an unemployed man who is on the list as a coal miner gets a job for three months as a worker on the roads, and then goes back to the exchange. Is he then reclassified, and, if so, would not that reclassification explain the difference?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: That applies to the country as a whole. There has naturally been no specific treatment in order to produce figures that may be satisfactory to my argument. If I have time, I shall advance one or two arguments and one or two sets of figures which by no means prove the sort of case I should like to see proved, so I hope the hon. Gentleman will take it from me that these facts and figures are accurate, and are in no sense dressed up to strengthen my arguments.
  The next argument that has been advanced by hon. Members opposite is that this Government has done little or nothing for that export trade on which our whole national survival depends. I do not think it will have passed altogether unnoticed that, in the seven years that have elapsed since we first started making trade agreements with foreign countries and with our own Dominions, the exports from this country have gone up by £180,000,000, and two-thirds of this increase has gone to what may be called Ottawa and trade agreement countries. That, of course, is not only satisfactory from every Imperial point of view, but it also means that we are better insulated against the effects of world-wide depression should another trade cycle emerge. It has been suggested that this Government is solely responsible for the fact that, although our exports are much higher than when we took over, they are none the less much smaller than they used to be in the rosier days of British trade. I do not believe, however, that, even if the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) had been in charge of the Board of Trade, those circumstances overseas which have militated against our export trade would not have operated. I do not think there would have been no European tension, no war in Spain and China, with consequent loss of markets, no fall in the price of raw cotton because of the bumper American crop, no losses of South American trade, with their possible effect on our shipping, and no American depression at

  2793
  all. The argument we can fairly advance is that, protected by our tariff system, and with our Empire and foreign countries anxious to make agreements with us, we have been better able to withstand these international dislocations than otherwise we should have been.
  The next argument that has been advanced is that this Government has done nothing to take work where it is most needed. Here one sees the difficulties which attend any Government that is anxious to weight the scales in favour of any particular area. You will see hon. Members representing distressed areas asking for further assistance, and quite properly; and you will see hon. Members like the hon. Member for Dundee suggesting that their districts have been hardly hit just because they have not been classified as Special Areas. A proper answer to the queries of the hon. Member for Dundee would involve a departure from the Rules of Order because it would involve dealing with the new legislation which I hope will be brought forward at an early date, by the end of the year. But the original argument to which I was trying to address myself was that this Government has done nothing, or very little, to take work to those districts which needed it most. The House knows quite well that certain areas were specified, and that it was the declared policy of the Government to weight the scales in favour of those areas. So successful has this been that, while during the two years for which the Socialist party was in power unemployment doubled in the Special Areas, in the four years since the Commissioner was appointed it was halved. That is true, not only of the district in which the hon. Member lives, but is also true of every Special Area as well. The hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) will be interested to know that unemployment in the South Wales Special Area has fallen from 154,000 to 74,000.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Will the hon. Member give us the insured population for that area of South Wales?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I cannot give the exact figure now, but I think the hon. Member can take it that the actual number of the insured population since the Commissioner was appointed has gone up.
  Mr. K. Griffith: The hon. Member does not seem to be meeting the point of the
  2794
  Special Areas which were put into the Schedule practically at random, in some cases because the Government had not had sufficient time to consider them.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: That has been constantly debated in the House, and I am not saying that there is not a measure of truth in the argument of the hon. Member, and it is because of difficulties and unfairnesses which have been disclosed that new legislation is proposed. The next argument produced is that the Government have done little to take work to those groups of unemployed who need it most, namely, the long-term unemployed whether young or old. I am not at this late hour going over the various measures that have been proposed—the provisions in the Camps Bill, whereby preference may be given to young long-term unemployed, or the advice given to local authorities to give a preference to these men in air-raid precautions work—and there, incidentally, the mild outcry which was caused by this does give an illustration of some of the difficulties involved.
  I may, perhaps, add that I have always believed, and my right hon. Friend has constantly argued, that if Government contractors are obliged to recruit their labour from the Employment Exchanges, it might be possible without in any way diminishing the quality of the labour which they would receive, to meet some of the social needs of the young and the old long-term unemployed. I am glad to say that there have been conversations between the employers and the unions in the building industry and the Departments concerned in which the greatest harmony has prevailed, and my right hon. Friend hopes at a fairly early date to be able to announce a tentative scheme.
  Mr. Tinker: Does that apply to the older men?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Of course. It would apply to everybody, the older and the younger men. These are two particular groups for whom provision is desired. As to the older men, in general no one could be complacent when there are to-day in the northern division of the Ministry of Labour 10,000 people who have been out of work for five years and more and of those, in the northern division alone, 7,000 are over 45. I would not argue

  2795
  for one moment that this problem has been solved at all. It may well be, in spite of innumerable attempts to work out schemes to help this group, that something more unorthodox may be necessary. My right hon. Friend was very interested to hear suggestions from the hon. Member for Cheltenham in regard to the employment of older men for local amenities or in the distributive trades, and he will certainly look in detail at the suggestions made. I was lately at Geneva with officials of the Ministry of Labour, and much interest was displayed there in the general question of the older unemployed. A United States delegate advanced the unexpected statement that of the employers in the United States who had been circularised 38 per cent. acknowledged that they discriminated against older men. Certainly, of the men taken on in the United States in 1937 in work only 8.4 per cent. were over 40,instead of 33 per cent. if the rate of turnover had been the same in all age groups.
  I was interested to read something lately in the Press about the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) and the union of which he is an ornament on this very subject—[Hon. Members: "Ornament? "] I mean ornament in the sense of being a very decorative figure as well as a very active and effective one. I can assure hon. Members on both sides of the House that the interests of the older unemployed who have been out of work for a long time will not be forgotten. In regard to the hard core of unemployment of which the older unemployed form the greater part, there has been a very considerable decline in the numbers unemployed in the last few years. In May, 1933, there were 483,000 unemployed who had been out of work for 12 months or more. That figure has fallen to 258,000. They are mostly in certain areas. At the same time, as my right hon. Friend said, in certain vital industries problems of labour are now looming very near ahead. There is nothing sinister in this if employers and the general public and Members of this House will assist us in seeing that in carrying out any policy these factors are taken into account. I do not believe anyone would quarrel with the words that appeared in the "Manchester Guardian" recently that:
  2796
  " The Government should be guided in its contracts policy by the presence or absence of reserves of labour. These it is quite plain do not exist in Southern England or in most of the Midlands, but they do exist in the Northern counties, Scotland and Wales."
  The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street asked us to bring industries to the districts where the men are ready to receive them. In promising to do all we can, we ask him, in return, to lend his good offices and to induce his friends to lend theirs in getting, by voluntary transference, the men who are needed into the districts where work is available. The last argument that ran through this Debate was the suggestion that the Government, in relying entirely on a temporary armaments programme had done nothing to prepare for the day when the tension will be relieved. That was the argument of several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall). The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) also asked, what in fact was intended when the rearmament boom was over? I do not think I could do better than quote some observations recently attributed to his one-time leader, Lord Samuel. He asked whether, when the rearmament programme was over we were in for a trade slump, and he said that for his part, he did not think so—and for this reason: If expenditure on armaments ceased it would be because the international situation had improved; the world would be returning somehow or other to conditions of normal tranquility and confidence. These same conditions would immediately bring about an immense expansion of trade. But we are not altogether relying on that. There is no intention of stopping the rearmament programme altogether then. It will, as circumstances allow, be tapered off. Plans are in existence for allowing some programme of work to be put into operation when the necessity arises. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsall that we are not in for a second big programme of public expenditure on the same scale as the rearmament programme when conditions changed. The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Leslie) and the hon. Member for Aberdare both forgot Durham about the readjustment of the when they spoke of rates in County formula, under which Durham receives the equivalent of us. in the £ compared with an average of 3s. over the county as a whole. My hon. Friend the Member

  2797
  for South West Norfolk (Mr. De Chair) in a very racy speech, and a very admirable contribution, asked for some statement on civilian conservation camps in the United States. As I am staying with my hon. Friend in the country to-morrow night, I hope that he will allow me to reserve the expression of my opinions until then.
  Mr. S.O. Davies: This is not anew subject. We are all aware of the pressure which has been brought on the Government by the hon. Member on this subject. Cannot we get an expression of opinion to-night from the Minister?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I prefer to wait until I receive something at first hand before making up my mind upon it. My hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham mentioned certain conditions in the King's Roll which had not been observed, and if he will send me particulars I will look into that matter. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Accrington (Major Procter) asked a question about technical schools. We have power under recent legislation to train some of the older unemployed juveniles under 18 years of age.
  Major Procter: The technical training I have in mind is not required for the young people, but for elderly men who are unemployed and require technical training to give them extra skill for carrying out precision work.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I quite appreciate that, and my answer was in part a reply. I cannot go further into that matter at the moment. The hon. Member for Spenny-moor (Mr. Batey) made reference, I understand—I am sorry I was out of the House at the time—to work centres, and suggested that a number of determinations had been made. When the House realises the very small number of determinations which have been made under Section 40 of the Act out of half a million applicants to the Board the matter will be seen in its proper perspective.
  The speech which interested me most was that of my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsall who said—and no one would quarrel with him—that the real cure for unemployment lies in attacking poverty all along the line. I can only end my speech by referring to a quotation from the "Daily Herald," where I read recently that in 1938, poverty the foremost public enemy in England really
  2798
  began to give way. Recently in the same newspaper I saw that so much money is being spent by holiday makers in England that the note circulation has risen to £510,897,516, which is a national record. Without suggesting that this calls for undue complacency in the present international situation, I feel that the House can separate for the holidays with considerable confidence in our industrial future.
  11.4 p.m.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: I would ask the hon. Gentleman to be a little more frank with us before we leave this House, as we may not have an opportunity to press him for information for some months to come. Possibly we may not have an opportunity ever to press him when the House reassembles after the General Election that we anticipate. Frankly, our suspicions have been aroused much more than usual by the references that the right hon. Gentleman made earlier this evening. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be sufficiently gracious as to give a little attention to this matter. We ought to have far more information than we have had up to now, and we are going to press the right hon. Gentleman to make it available to us before we leave this House to-night. He referred on three occasions to some scheme or other about which he was not frank enough to tell the House, but we know it must be in his mind and that it will probably be made operative at some time. It is a scheme that will have a very serious bearing some way or other on the 550,000 unemployed who are regarded as being a hard core of the unemployment problem.
  Will the right hon. Gentleman take us into his confidence now? What scheme has he in mind? How does he propose to fit these men, or many of them, for certain jobs that he has in mind? We do not know what jobs he is referring to but we are extremely suspicious of his object. I hope he will be a little more definite and plain. We know on these Benches that the right hon. Gentleman has been pressed by a very considerable number of Government supporters to establish industrial conscription, particularly among the younger section of the 550,000. We know it will not be described as industrial conscription. It will have a more euphemistic title. We do not call the men who have been called to

  2799
  the army under the Conscription Act, conscripts, but militiamen. I suppose we shall use the same kind of a phrase that is being used in the United States.
  I notice on the Order Paper a Motion which calls for nothing other than industrial conscription. No amount of humbug or misrepresentation will persuade the unemployed in my constituency that this Motion means anything other than industrial conscription. It is no use talking about putting these young men to perform the work of afforestation, land drainage, land reclamation, coast erosion control, and so on. Tell them that they will be found work and paid reasonable wages, and you need have no Motions of this sort on the Order Paper. These men are hungry for decent work. Not only will any attempt to impose industrial conscription upon these unfortunate unemployed be strongly resisted in the country, but let me warn the adventurous hon. Members on the other side that it will be resisted not only by the unemployed but by the trade union organisations. When military conscription was being debated and we accused the Government that they must have at the back of their mind industrial conscription as a corollary to military conscription, we were laughed at and jeered at by the very people who have placed this Motion on the Order Paper. We must get more information than we have had to-day.
  We were not impressed by the right hon. Gentleman's cheap jugglery with figures and with long slabs of Beveridge economics We are more than tired of that. What we shall warn the unemployed about will be that they should strengthen their organisations, because, if this Government is returned at the General Election which, it is anticipated, will take place in the autumn, industrial conscription of these unfortunate unemployed will be absolutely inevitable.
  Unless we can get more information than we have had to-day, we shall continue to press for it. We noticed the deliberate restraint which the right hon. Gentleman placed upon himself in not telling us the whole story. He has left an indelible impression that he has nothing but industrial conscription in his mind, and we know that he will be whole-
  2800
  heartedly supported by his Parliamentary Secretary, who has imbibed with such enthusiasm all the totalitarian ideals. The right hon. Gentleman will make an appalling mistake unless he takes the House into his confidence. He is more than suspect because of the type of Parliamentary Secretary that he chose. We know where that hon. Gentleman stands. We shall during this enforced holiday have no hesitation in warning the unemployed that the next step in progressive legislation by this Government, if it is returned after the next election will be industrial conscription of those the Government have failed to do justice to, the men they have hounded and persecuted, the men for whom they brought into being the costliest penal instrument that has been invented for many years, an instrument on which £4,500,000 was spent in salaries last year. Nothing the right hon. Gentleman can say, unless he takes the House into his confidence, will dissuade us from being convinced that plans for industrial conscription to be imposed on the unemployed are already in the hands of the Department and will be imposed unless the workers of the country have the real good sense to prevent a disreputable Government of this kind being returned.

  BRITISH OVERSEAS AIRWAYS BILL.
  Motion made, and Question "That the Lords Amendments be considered forthwith."—[Sir K. Wood.]
  Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

  BRITISH OVERSEAS AIRWAYS BILL.

    CLAUSE 32.—(His Majesty's aircraft to have free use and benefit of aerodromes and other facilities.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 22, line 3, leave out the Clause.
    11.14 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Kingsley Wood): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    2801
    I am moving this and other Amendments in compliance with undertakings that I gave when the Bill was in Committee. This carries out an undertaking with regard to the charges for landing and other facilities. The point was made that it would be convenient and right that the corporation should make available at reasonable charges facilities to other organisations if they so desired. This Amendment and others carry out the undertaking. The point was also made that the corporation themselves might perhaps not be willing to do that, and I have also provided for that by the fact that the Secretary of State might direct that such facilities shall be available in the circumstances mentioned. I hope that hon. Members who are interested will feel that I have met them in the way that they desire.
    11.16 p.m.
    Mr. Montague: I should like to ask one question on this Amendment. Facilities are to be granted to the Royal Air Force by the new corporation. Obviously if war comes civil aviation will go by the board, and I take it that what is in the mind of the Minister is the possible use of an aerodrome like Heston for the purposes of training. Yet we are told in the Clause that the corporation's needs shall be satisfied first. I should like to know whether in the case of the Royal Air Force wanting to use the aerodromes for training purposes it would clash with the facilities required by the corporation. What is in the mind of the Minister in respect of the provisions of that part of the Clause?
    11. 18 p.m.
    Mr. E. Smith: I want to put one or two questions. The Lords Amendment says:
    " The Corporation shall, without making any charge therefor, afford to any aircraft which is being used in His Majesty's service the use of any such aerodrome and the benefit of any such facilities as aforesaid."
    Will this also apply to the Civil Guard, and to air clubs who are training young men for the specific purpose of entering the Royal Air Force? An increasing number of young men are training in their spare time to become pilots and observers in the Air Force in case of an emergency. I would like to know whether these facilities are to be extended to these clubs and
    2802
    to these young men? The next point is this. I am sure that everyone was very disturbed and regretted the accident in which the Secretary of State was involved during last week-end. I have spoken to a large number of people who do not know the Secretary of State for Air personally, but who had followed what has taken place since he accepted his present important position and they were all relieved to find that he and his colleagues had not been affected to any great extent. At the same time, it must be a shock to anyone who is involved in such an accident, and it is for that reason that we ought to be concerned as to whether there is the danger of a repetition of what has occurred.
    I want to ask whether the Amendment will enable the whole of the Air Force to have the benefit of the facilities provided by the Corporation. I have in mind, first of all, the meteorological service, which is so necessary. It is obvious that something was wrong with regard to the particular aeroplane in which the Secretary of State was flying. I believe that if they had had the benefit of the meteorological service and the wireless service, they might not have been involved in that serious accident. Therefore, I ask whether the whole of the Air Force will have the benefit of the facilities that can be obtained and that will be at the disposal of the Corporation when it is set up.
    11.21 p.m.
    Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueter: I join with the hon. Member for Stoke(Mr. E. Smith) in congratulating the Secretary of State for Air in coming out of his accident so well, and I hope that his Parliamentary Private Secretary will soon recover. I want to ask a question with regard to the "reasonable charges" to which reference is twice made in the Amendments. I have heard many complaints that the charges that were made by Imperial Airways for machines using their aerodrome were excessive. If I take a private machine and land on an aerodrome controlled by the corporation, who is to say whether the charges are reasonable or not? I might protest that the charges were unreasonable. Would the Secretary of State for Air take up the matter and settle whether the charges were reasonable or not?
    11.22 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. E. Smith) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Sir M. Sueter) for the personal references they have made, and 1 will try to answer the questions they put to me. With regard to aeroplanes being used in His Majesty's Service, the Amendment provides that the benefit of any of the facilities that are available shall be given to such aircraft free of charge. As far as other aircraft are concerned, many hon. Members in all parts of the House took exception to the fact that there was no provision in the Bill for those aircraft to be afforded the use of such aerodromes at reasonable charges. They gave illustrations of cases where other countries have afforded our aircraft facilities of that kind at a reasonable cost, and suggested that it was right that the new corporation should be enabled to do the same thing.
    Therefore, this Amendment provides, first, that the aircraft used in His Majesty's Service shall be afforded the benefit of such aerodromes free of charge —which I think is quite right from a military point of view—and secondly, that other aircraft should be afforded these facilities by the Corporation at reasonable charges. If we found—I think it is an unlikely event—that the corporation was not prepared to do this, then the Secretary of State would be enabled, as he is by this Amendment, to direct the corporation so to do. In answer to the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague), I think it is quite right to provide, as is done in the proviso, that the facilities in both cases must be subject to the corporation being enabled to carry out its proper functions and discharge its duties to the public. Subject to that—and that of course is the main purpose of the corporation—the proviso is made that the corporation must enable those facilities to be given.
    Mr. Montague: That does not quite meet the point. The Secretary of State has not only an intimate relation with the corporation itself; he is also the political head of the Royal Air Force. If there is a clash of opinion between the two, which side will the Secretary of State take? If there is any difficulty in respect of civil aviation and there is a clash between the two sections what will be the position?
    Sir K. Wood: My own view is that there should not be any difficulty in a case of this kind, and I do not anticipate any difficulty. If any difference did arise I should be questioned in this House and would have to justify the decision to which I came. As regards charges, my hon. Friend will remember that there is an approved schedule of landing charges for aerodromes in this country. The Corporation will charge accordingly; and in the last resort, if there is any suggestion of improper charges being made in this country or elsewhere, the matter will come to me and I will give a direction on it, again a direction for which I shall be responsible to this House. I think all those points are amply safeguarded.
    Subsequent Lords Amendment in page 22, line 27, agreed to.

    CLAUSE 39.—(Continuance of compassionate allowances.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 24, line 10, after "entitle," insert:
    "for the remainder of the period for which the pension or allowance was granted."
    11.28 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Hon. Members will recall that I undertook to meet them if I could on this point of compassionate allowances. There was some doubt as to the wording of the Clause as it stood, owing to the phraseology then employed. This Amendment makes it clear that compassionate allowances shall be as of legal right, and for the same terms and on the same conditions as before. As the Clause was drawn there was some doubt, and a different interpretation might have been given by anybody who was endeavouring to construe it. This has been examined by the Parliamentary draughtsman, and I think makes the matter abundantly clear, as hon. Members desired.
    11.29 p.m.
    Mr. Mander: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for having given further consideration as promised, to this matter. It seems to me that the way in which it has been dealt with completely protects the persons—I understand, about six in all—who are concerned. Whatever grant has been given to them by either of these

    2805
    companies in the past cannot be withdrawn for the period for which it has now been allocated to them. They hold it as of right, and, that being so, I am entirely satisfied.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 29, line 10, agreed to.

  FIFTH SCHEDULE.—(Provisions as to Wages, etc.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 43, line 18, leave out "trade societies," and insert "associations representative of employees."
  Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  This is in compliance with an undertaking which I gave. As the hon. Gentleman opposite will remember, it was a question whether the term "trade societies'' was a happy one. The other place has introduced the words "associations representative of employés," which I think covers the whole ground.
  2806
  One had to remember that the Corporation will function all over the world, and one wanted to find a term that would cover all sorts of conditions. I think, if I may say so, the hon. Gentleman was right in pointing this out, and I hope he will feel that we have endeavoured to meet his point.
  Mr. Lathan: I am indebted to the Secretary of State for having given consideration to this matter. The proposal which he has now made will meet the views which we put forward.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-nine Minutes before Eleven o'clock

  FAR EAST SITUATION.
  FAR EAST SITUATION.
  VIENNA (BRITISH SUBJECTS' DETENTION).
  VIENNA (BRITISH SUBJECTS' DETENTION).
  Mr. H. W. WICKS.
  Mr. H. W. WICKS.
  GOVERNMENT FACTORIES, DURHAM COUNTY.
  GOVERNMENT FACTORIES, DURHAM COUNTY.
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  CUSTOMS REVENUE (COMPARATIVE STATISTICS).
  CUSTOMS REVENUE (COMPARATIVE STATISTICS).
  COINAGE (DEFACEMENT).
  COINAGE (DEFACEMENT).
  UNIVERSITIES (TREASURY GRANTS).
  UNIVERSITIES (TREASURY GRANTS).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND CIVIL SERVICE (SUPERANNUATION).
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND CIVIL SERVICE (SUPERANNUATION).
  ROAD VEHICLES (DUTIES).
  ROAD VEHICLES (DUTIES).
  TITHE ACT (REMISSIONS).
  TITHE ACT (REMISSIONS).
  JAPANESE TOYS (IMPORTS).
  JAPANESE TOYS (IMPORTS).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
AGRICULTURE.
  SKIMMED MILK (DISPOSAL).
  SKIMMED MILK (DISPOSAL).
  POTATO MARKETING SCHEME.
  POTATO MARKETING SCHEME.
  LOCATION OF INDUSTRY (AGRICULTURAL LAND).
  LOCATION OF INDUSTRY (AGRICULTURAL LAND).
  FLOODING, ROTHER VALLEY.
  FLOODING, ROTHER VALLEY.
  MILK PRICES.
  MILK PRICES.
  FARM WORKERS' WAGES.
  FARM WORKERS' WAGES.
  FARM WORKERS, SUFFOLK.
  FARM WORKERS, SUFFOLK.
  MILK SUPPLY, EAST SUFFOLK.
  MILK SUPPLY, EAST SUFFOLK.
  ATTESTED HERDS.
  ATTESTED HERDS.
  WOMEN'S LAND ARMY.
  WOMEN'S LAND ARMY.
  FISHING INDUSTRY (RESTRICTIONS).
  FISHING INDUSTRY (RESTRICTIONS).
CIVIL DEFENCE.
  NATIONAL SERVICE RECRUITING.
  NATIONAL SERVICE RECRUITING.
  AIR-RAID SHELTERS.
  AIR-RAID SHELTERS.
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS DEPOTS, WEST HAM.
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS DEPOTS, WEST HAM.
  RESPIRATORS.
  RESPIRATORS.
  EVACUATION.
  EVACUATION.
  NURSING RESERVE.
  NURSING RESERVE.
  STROOD.
  STROOD.
  HOSPITALS.
  HOSPITALS.
  WATER SUPPLIES.
  WATER SUPPLIES.
  IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY.
  IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY.
  REFUGEES.
  REFUGEES.
  NEWSREEL FILMS (STATE FUNCTIONS).
  NEWSREEL FILMS (STATE FUNCTIONS).
  CORONERS.
  CORONERS.
  SHOPS ACTS.
  SHOPS ACTS.
  GERMAN PROPAGANDA.
  GERMAN PROPAGANDA.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  BRITISH EMBASSY, BAGHDAD.
  BRITISH EMBASSY, BAGHDAD.
PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS.
  OFFICES (REGULATION).
  OFFICES (REGULATION).
  HOME HELPS.
  HOME HELPS.
  MILK.
  MILK.
  TUBERCULOSIS, CAERPHILLY AND GELLIGAER.
  TUBERCULOSIS, CAERPHILLY AND GELLIGAER.
  MEDICAL OFFICERS OF HEALTH.
  MEDICAL OFFICERS OF HEALTH.
  ANTI-TUBERCULOSIS SERVICES, WALES.
  ANTI-TUBERCULOSIS SERVICES, WALES.
HOUSING.
  LlCHFIELD.
  LlCHFIELD.
  BELL QUAY.
  BELL QUAY.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  DRAINAGE SCHEME, RIMROSE BROOK.
  DRAINAGE SCHEME, RIMROSE BROOK.
  CONTRIBUTORY OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  CONTRIBUTORY OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  STATE MEDICAL SERVICE.
  STATE MEDICAL SERVICE.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES EMPLOYES (MILITARY SERVICE).
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES EMPLOYES (MILITARY SERVICE).
  WATER SUPPLY, WALES.
  WATER SUPPLY, WALES.
  BLIND PERSONS' PENSIONS.
  BLIND PERSONS' PENSIONS.
  NUTRITION SURVEYS.
  NUTRITION SURVEYS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (PUBLIC ASSISTANCE).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (PUBLIC ASSISTANCE).
  WITHDEAN TENNIS COURTS, BRIGHTON.
  WITHDEAN TENNIS COURTS, BRIGHTON.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  BLACK-COATED WORKERS.
  BLACK-COATED WORKERS.
  INSTRUCTIONAL CENTRES.
  INSTRUCTIONAL CENTRES.
  COTTON INDUSTRY WAGES.
  COTTON INDUSTRY WAGES.
MILITARY TRAINING.
  EXEMPTION CLAIM (A. BROWN).
  EXEMPTION CLAIM (A. BROWN).
  CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
  CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
  CANNED SALMON IMPORTS.
  CANNED SALMON IMPORTS.
  COAL INDUSTRY (EMERGENCY RATIONING).
  COAL INDUSTRY (EMERGENCY RATIONING).
SUPPLY.
  GUN FACTORY, LEEDS.
  GUN FACTORY, LEEDS.
  ENGINEERING PRODUCTS (LIAISON BUREAU).
  ENGINEERING PRODUCTS (LIAISON BUREAU).
  FIGHTING FORCES (MEAT SUPPLY).
  FIGHTING FORCES (MEAT SUPPLY).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (HELICOPTERS).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (HELICOPTERS).
EDUCATION.
  WOLVERTON.
  WOLVERTON.
  SLOUGH,
  SLOUGH,
ROYAL NAVY.
  CONVERTED TRAWLERS.
  CONVERTED TRAWLERS.
  MEAT SUPPLY.
  MEAT SUPPLY.
  HIS MAJESTY THE KING'S YACHT.
  HIS MAJESTY THE KING'S YACHT.
  LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY.
  LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY.
  PALESTINE.
  PALESTINE.
  NIGERIA.
  NIGERIA.
  CAMEROONS.
  CAMEROONS.
  INTERNATIONAL SUGAR CONVENTION.
  INTERNATIONAL SUGAR CONVENTION.
  SIERRA LEONE.
  SIERRA LEONE.
  BRITISH GUIANA.
  BRITISH GUIANA.
  NEW ZEALAND (IMPORT RESTRICTIONS)
  NEW ZEALAND (IMPORT RESTRICTIONS)
SCOTLAND.
  AFFORESTATION.
  AFFORESTATION.
  BARLINNIE PRISON.
  BARLINNIE PRISON.
  SKIMMED MILK (DISPOSAL).
  SKIMMED MILK (DISPOSAL).
  WESTERN ISLES.
  WESTERN ISLES.
  HOUSING.
  HOUSING.
  PENSIONS CLAIMS.
  PENSIONS CLAIMS.
  SCHOOL AND EVACUATION CAMPS.
  SCHOOL AND EVACUATION CAMPS.
  SELECT COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES (REPORT).
  SELECT COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES (REPORT).
  TESTS FOR DRUNKENNESS.
  TESTS FOR DRUNKENNESS.
  GLASCOED ORDNANCE WORKS.
  GLASCOED ORDNANCE WORKS.
  POST OFFICE (REGISTERED ENVELOPES).
  POST OFFICE (REGISTERED ENVELOPES).
BRITISH ARMY.
  MILITIAMEN.
  MILITIAMEN.
  OFFICERS' PENSIONS AND PAY.
  OFFICERS' PENSIONS AND PAY.
  LORRY DRIVERS (TRAINING).
  LORRY DRIVERS (TRAINING).
  NEW CAMP, DEVIZES (CARPENTERS' WAGES).
  NEW CAMP, DEVIZES (CARPENTERS' WAGES).
  OPTICAL APPLIANCES.
  OPTICAL APPLIANCES.
  OFFICERS' EMERGENCY RESERVE.
  OFFICERS' EMERGENCY RESERVE.
  AUXILIARY TERRITORIAL SERVICE, FELIXSTOWE.
  AUXILIARY TERRITORIAL SERVICE, FELIXSTOWE.
  TANK BATTALIONS.
  TANK BATTALIONS.
  FOOD DEFENCE PLANS (FISH).
  FOOD DEFENCE PLANS (FISH).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
SOLICITORS (DISCIPLINARY COMMITTEE) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
PUBLIC HEALTH (COAL MINE REFUSE) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
LONDON GAS UNDERTAKINGS (REGULATIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.

BARLEY SCHEME, 1939.
3.5 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM): My Lords, you will recall that the Agricultural Development Act contained a provision for the preparation of a temporary subsidy scheme for barley to operate for this year's crop, for the 1939 crop only. The scheme has been circulated to your Lordships in a White Paper issued last week. The scheme is of the levy-subsidy type, and as I devoted some little time in my Second Reading speech to a general explanation of the detail and machinery of the scheme, I do not think I need detain the House by going into details at the present stage. The essence of the scheme is that contributions are paid into a Subsidy Fund by brewers, by importers of beer and by manufacturers of pot-still whisky. These contributions are supplemented by an Exchequer contribution of a sufficient amount to provide for an acreage subsidy of the amount stated in the scheme to be paid to growers of barley in the United Kingdom.

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Brewers and importers of beer will contribute to the Fund a levy varying from 1d. to 1s. a standard barrel of beer, according as the average market price of all kinds of home-grown barley in England and Wales varies between 9s. 11d. and 8s. 1d. per cwt. The levy on manufacturers of pot-still whisky will vary from 1d. to 4d. per proof gallon. There are a number of other users of barley for malting purposes, but the quantities used are relatively small, and there are a number of complications in devising machinery to include this type of manufacturer; therefore it has not been possible to include them within this purely temporary scheme. But I wish to make it quite clear that the omission of this type of manufacturer is entirely without prejudice to its inclusion within the long-term scheme which we hope to devise during the autumn. When the Exchequer contribution has been added, the whole Fund will be distributed among growers of barley at a rate varying from 2s. 6d. to 30s. per acre according as the average price of barley falls from 9s. 11d. to 8s. 1d. per cwt.
On the basis of the existing output and imports of beer, and the acreage under barley in 1938, contributions from the brewers and from the importers at the maximum rate of levy would yield about £,950,000, while the Exchequer contribution, in order to pay the maximum rate of subsidy of 30s. per acre, would be about £450,000. The trade interests will therefore provide about two-thirds to the scheme and the Exchequer about one-third. At the express wish of farmers and distillers in Scotland, provision is made under which distillers may be exempt from the payment of levy subject to the observance of certain conditions contained in the scheme.
The farmers who secure the minimum price mentioned in paragraph 12 of the scheme will not receive subsidy on that part of their crop so sold. The scheme includes provision regarding negligent cultivation, which I know will be a matter of interest to my noble friend Lord Phillimore, whom I see in his place, and in spite of the lateness of the season it is our intention to inspect as many farms as possible on which barley has been grown this spring—that is, as soon as the scheme has received the approval of Parliament. I think the House will agree that it is very satisfactory that an agreed
798
measure of assistance to barley growers has been prepared in time to come into operation for this year, and the ready co-operation that has existed between the farmers and the manufacturing interests, which has been shown in the negotiations which have recently taken place, has shown what a hopeful augury there is for the long-term negotiations which it is intended will open at a later stage this autumn. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for his very clear statement, and to say how glad I am that the levy-subsidy principle has proved so far to be effective. I think we may congratulate ourselves also that, since the levy operates inversely to the price of barley, it is very unlikely there will be any serious effect on the price of beer.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SENIOR PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (LIVERPOOL) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended in pursuance of the Resolution of the House of Monday, July 24, Bill read 3a, and passed.

BRITISH OVERSEAS AIRWAYS BILL.
Reported without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House forthwith.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Establishment and constitution of Corporation.
1.—(1) So soon as may be after the passing of this Act, there shall be established for the

799
purposes thereof a corporation to be known as the British Overseas Airways Corporation (hereafter in this Act referred to as "the Corporation").
3.15 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "British Overseas Airways" and insert "British Airways (1939)." The noble Lord said: I would like, if I may, to move on behalf of my noble friend Lord Marley this Amendment which stands in his name. I will move it formally, because it may be possible by agreement to get some other form of words which will meet the situation. Your Lordships will be aware that both in another place, and also in the speech of my noble friend Lord Marley on the Second Reading, objection was taken to the proposed title. I understand that in another place the Secretary of State for Air said that if agreement was reached about a better title he would be prepared to support it. It has been conveyed to me that there might be agreement either on the title proposed by my noble friend, or even more perhaps by altering the title to "Royal Airways." Another alternative would be "Royal British Airways." There is a feeling that the word "Royal" should be brought in. There is a precedent for that in the Koninklijke Luchvaart Maatschappij, the Royal Dutch Air Line. I understand also that the Corporation itself, or the Imperial Airways, would welcome that title, but if there is any difficulty perhaps you might leave this question of the title for further negotiation. It is rather late in the Session, and we do not want to delay the House in view of the fact that my noble friend Lord Snell is initiating a very important debate. I have here, as an alternative to my noble friend's Amendment, a manuscript Amendment to leave the title to the Secretary of State to direct later. Perhaps if the noble Marquess will give his views on the subject I may keep my manuscript Amendment in reserve. I formally move the Amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lord Marley.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 1, leave out ("British Overseas Airways") and insert ("British Airways (1939)").—(Lord Strabolgi.)
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): I appreciate the fact that there is a certain difference of opinion as to the best title
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for this Corporation, but I am bound to say that my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Air, and others, have given this matter very careful consideration. They have considered every possible title, but for one reason or another they have proved to be impracticable. The initials of other titles that have been considered, for example, represent other institutions already in existence. The noble Lord, Lord Marley, proposes to alter the title from "British Overseas Airways" to "British Airways (1939)." There are certain objections to that title. To begin with it is the title of one of the two companies which are to be merged in the Corporation, and it is the smaller of the two companies. It would certainly be likely to give to many people the impression, if the new Corporation were to be called "British Airways (1939)" that this was merely a reconstruction of the existing smaller company. I should rather hope that your Lordships would be prepared to accept the title already in the Bill. After all, what is the objection to "British Overseas Airways"? It describes with complete accuracy the nature of the task which the Corporation is to undertake, and it seems to me that in those circumstances it is certainly the most appropriate title for the new Corporation. I do not wish to say anything with regard to the suggestion that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi threw out as an alternative, but so far as the Amendment of Lord Marley is concerned, for the reasons which I have given I hope the noble Lord will not press it.
LORD STRABOLGI: In view of that answer, I certainly do not press it. I felt the objection that the noble Marquess has stated when my noble friend showed me the Amendment. I thought then that to take the title of one of the existing airways would be rather invidious. The trouble, of course, is the initials, and B.O.A. to many people's minds represents a great snake. To me it represents the adornment of a woman's neck. In my younger days my mother wore a boa, which was very becoming. So I do not feel the same objection as some people do to that title, but I have handed in a manuscript Amendment dealing with this matter, and I ask leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.22 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "as the British Overseas Airways Corporation," and insert "by such title as the Secretary of State may direct." The noble Lord said: This has been suggested to me by a certain honourable member in another place, who takes a great interest in this matter. I see the difficulty with regard to the title, but I presume that can be got over, and this is only a suggestion. I understand that even in Imperial Airways it is realised that there might be a better name than the one in the Bill. Apart from this idea of the boa constrictor, "British Overseas Airways" is not a very good title. It does not sound right to my ears, and many other people say the same. It is rather clumsy, and we like the idea of bringing in the word "Royal." The Corporation is now, after all, a semi-Government organisation. I do not know what reception this proposal will have, but at any rate, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 10, leave out from ("known") to ("hereafter") in line 11, and insert ("by such title as the Secretary of State may direct").—(Lord Strabolgi.)
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: The only result, I feel sure, of accepting this Amendment, would be that the Secretary of State would at once decide that the Corporation should be called "British Overseas Airways Corporation," and we should therefore be precisely where we now are. Surely it is reasonable that, since this is a Parliamentary measure, Parliament should accept responsibility for the title which they give to the Bill. I hope your Lordships will allow the clause to stand as it is.
LORD STRABOLGI: I presume we can always change the name later on, and I dare say there will be other mergers and amalgamations and Bills dealing with this important service. I thank the noble Marquess for the interest he has taken in the matter, and I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 31 agreed to.
Clause 32:
His Majesty's aircraft to have free use and benefit of aerodromes and other facilities.
32. The Corporation shall, without making any charge therefor, afford to any aircraft
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which is being used in His Majesty's service the use of any aerodrome controlled by the Corporation, and the benefit of any housing, wireless or other facilities which the Corporation have available:
Provided that the Corporation shall not by virtue of this section be under an obligation to afford the use of any aerodrome or the benefit of any facility in circumstances in which any interference with the discharge of the functions of the Corporation would be occasioned by their so doing.
3.25 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved to leave out Clause 32. The noble Marquess said: Perhaps I might take this Amendment and the Amendment to insert a new clause after Clause 33 together, because they deal with one problem—namely, the provision by the Corporation of aerodrome and other facilities to other than their own liners. This Amendment is really moved in order to meet certain representations which were made to my right honourable friend in another place. The omission of Clause 32 is made good later on in the proposed new Clause 33. Subsection (1) of the proposed new Clause 33 provides that the Corporation may make facilities available to other people, and may make such reasonable charges as they think fit for so doing. It is, I understand, quite possible that the power to make their facilities available to other persons may be implicit in Clause 2 of the Bill, but it was considered desirable, when dealing with the question of reasonable charges and the power of the Secretary of State to direct the Corporation to make their facilities available to others, to deal directly in this clause with the Corporation's power to afford the facilities.
Then subsection (2) of the proposed new clause reproduces in effect the substantive part of Clause 32, which I am moving to omit. Subsection (3) gives effect to the undertaking of the Secretary of State, by providing that he may direct the Corporation to afford to the aircraft of others, at reasonable charges, the benefit of the Corporation's facilities. The words "aircraft flown by, or in the service of, such persons or classes of persons as may be specified in the direction" are intended to enable the Secretary of State to discriminate in the direction in favour of any British aircraft or non-commercial aircraft. Subsection (4) reproduces in a modified form the proviso of Clause 32 in the Bill as it left another place, and

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it provides that the Corporation shall not be bound to allow the use of their facilities either to aircraft in His Majesty's service, or to other aircraft, in circumstances which would occasion interference with the discharge of their own duties. I believe that the Amendment does meet the representations which have been made to my right honourable friend, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 32.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
LORD STRABOLGI: This Amendment is an important one. We consider it an improvement to the Bill and welcome it. It prevents the formation of a possible monopoly.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 33 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: I beg to move the new clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 27, after Clause 33, insert the following new clause:
Provision by Corporation of aerodrome and other facilities.
(".—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the Corporation may afford to aircraft not being used in the service of the Corporation the use of aerodromes controlled by the Corporation and the benefit of housing, wireless or other facilities available to the Corporation, and may make in respect of any such use or benefit such reasonable charges as they think fit.
(2) The Corporation shall, without making any charge therefor, afford to any aircraft which is being used in His Majesty's service the use of any such aerodrome and the benefit of any such facilities as aforesaid.
(3) The Secretary of State may direct the Corporation to afford, at reasonable charges, to aircraft flown by, or in the service of, such persons or classes of persons as may be specified in the direction the use of such aerodromes controlled by the Corporation, or the benefit of such facilities available to them, as may be so specified.
(4) The Corporation shall not, by virtue of subsection (2) of this section, or of any direction of the Secretary of State under subsection (3) of this section, be under any obligation to afford the use of any aerodrome or the benefit of any facilities in circumstances in which any interference with the discharge of functions of the Corporation would be occasioned by their so doing").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 34 to 38 agreed to.
Clause 39:
Continuance of compassionate allowances.
39. Where immediately before the appointed day—

(a) a person who was formerly in the employment of either of the existing companies; or

(b) the widow or dependant of a deceased person who was formerly in such employment,

is in receipt of a pension or a superannuation or other allowance from that company granted in pursuance of customary practice and not as a matter of legal right, then that person or, as the case may be, his widow or dependant shall be entitled to receive from the Corporation the same pension or allowance and on the same conditions as previously obtaining.
3.29 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, after "entitled," to insert "for the remainder of the period for which the pension or allowance was granted." The noble Marquess said: I understand that there was some doubt whether the clause as it at present stands gives effect to the intention of Parliament. The last four lines of the clause, as I propose to amend them by the two Amendments standing in my name, will read as follows:
"that person or, as the case may be, his widow or dependant, shall be entitled for the remainder of the period for which the pension or allowance was granted to receive from the Corporation the same pension or allowance as a matter of legal right, but otherwise on the same conditions as previously obtaining."
They are to a large extent drafting Amendments to make quite clear the intention of the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 10, after ("entitled") insert ("for the remainder of the period for which the pension or allowance was granted").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 11, leave out ("and") and insert ("as a matter of legal right but otherwise").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule [Supplementary provisions as to the Corporation]:
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: This is a purely drafting Amendment, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 10, leave out ("section") and insert ("paragraph").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second, Third, and Fourth Schedules agreed to.
Fifth Schedule [Provisions as to wages, etc.]:
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Amendment, in paragraph 2, to leave out "trade societies," and insert "associations representative of employees" is to make clear the meaning of the phrase "trade societies." It has been asked whether by "trade societies" are meant trade unions. The answer to that is that that is so, but that "trade unions" do not necessarily cover the whole ground. There may be some parts of the world where trade unions do not exist in the form in which we know them, and it is proposed therefore, in order to make the intention of Parliament quite clear, to use instead of either "trade societies" or "trade unions" the phrase "associations representative of employees." That will make it perfectly clear that these people are to have the right for which they are asking of being recognised by the management for the purposes of the discussion of questions between employer and employee.
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 18, leave out ("trade societies") and insert ("associations representative of employees").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
LORD STRABOLGI: I wonder if the noble Marquess would be so good as to inform me—I have to confess my ignorance of this—whether this Amendment satisfies the trade union representatives who raised the point in another place. I have not myself had time to consult them.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: So far as I know, it does. It certainly should do so because the new phrase has a wider meaning than "trade unions." It covers employees of all kinds employed by the
806
Corporation, not necessarily in this country but in other parts of the world.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am much obliged. I apologise for asking, but we have rather a pressure of work at this time of the Session, and I have not been able to consult with my friends in another place. These words are much wider, and they would cover the greatest trade union in the world—the trade union to which the noble and learned Lord belongs, the great trade union of the law. I am sure the noble Lord would welcome the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM): I do not belong to it.
LORD STRABOLGI: You are ipso facto a member.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fifth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.
House resumed.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, in pursuance of the Resolution of the House of Monday, July 24:
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move that the Report of Amendments be now received.
Moved, That the Report of Amendments be now received.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read 3a.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

WATER UNDERTAKINGS BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
3.37 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDPORT: My Lords, all the Amendments on the Paper in my name, up to and including the Amendment to the First Schedule on Page 45, are drafting Amendments. With your

807
Lordships' approval, I propose to move that these drafting Amendments be agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Clause 7, page 13, line 1, leave out ("amend") and insert ("make an order, in like manner and subject to the like provisions as the original order, amending")
Clause 12, page 19, line 37, after ("river") insert ("or any")
Clause 23, page 29, line 13, after ("protection") insert ("or benefit")
Clause 23, page 29, line 14, after ("person") insert ("or class of persons")
First Schedule, page 32, line 11, after ("includes") insert ("supply")
First Schedule, page 33, line 13, leave out ("it has")
First Schedule, page 33, line 22, after ("means") insert ("an")
First Schedule, page 34, line 40, after ("or") insert ("other conduit or")
First Schedule, page 35, line 23, leave out ("or on") and insert ("on or over")
First Schedule, page 35, line 25, leave out ("or on") and insert ("on or over")
First Schedule, page 35, line 29, after ("apply") insert ("as respects any highway")
First Schedule, page 35, line 29, leave out ("in any highway")
First Schedule, page 40, line 19, after ("pipes") insert ("or other")
First Schedule, page 40, line 21, after the first ("or") insert ("other")
First Schedule, page 41, line 17, after ("pipes") insert ("or other")
First Schedule, page 42, line 16, after ("pipe") insert ("or other")
First Schedule, page 45, line, after ("a") insert ("service").—(Viscount Bridport.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule:

FIRST SCHEDULE.
Part VI:—Breaking open streets, &c.
Application of Part VI to highways not maintainable at the public expense.
32.—(1) …
(2) In the application of Sections twenty-seven, twenty-eight, thirty and thirty-one of this Part of this Schedule, to a street not maintainable at the public expense, the expression "persons having the control or management" shall be deemed to include the authority by whom the street would be maintainable if it became a highway maintainable at the public expense and, accordingly, any notice required by Section twenty-seven of this Schedule and a copy of the plans referred to in Section twenty-eight thereof shall be served on that authority.
Part VIII:—Supply of water for public purposes.
Undertakers to fix and maintain fire-hydrants on pipes.
36. The undertakers shall, at the request of the fire authority concerned, fix fire-hydrants on the pipes belonging to them at such places as may be most convenient for affording a supply of water for extinguishing any fire which may break out within the limits of supply, and shall keep in good order and from time to time renew every such hydrant.
VISCOUNT BRIDPORT VISCOUNT BRIDPORT moved, at the end of subsection (2) in Clause 32, to insert "but the authority shall not take any action under subsection (2) of the last preceding section except at the request and on behalf of the other persons having the control or management of the street, bridge, sewer, drain or tunnel in question." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, subsection (2) of Clause 32 of the First Schedule as it stands in the Bill gives a local authority some control in respect of streets likely to become maintainable by the inhabitants at large—for example, they must receive plans of mains to be laid in the street and have some say as to the manner of carrying out works. The Amendment secures that such control shall not extend to proceedings against a water undertaker except on behalf of the owners of the street, and thus avoids the possibility of actions by two parties in respect of the same offence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 9, at end, insert the said words.—(Viscount Bridport.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BRIDPORT VISCOUNT BRIDPORT moved, in Clause 36, to leave out "the pipes belonging to them" and insert "their mains (other than trunk mains within the meaning of that expression as used in Section thirty-four of this Schedule)." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, trunk mains, as defined in Section 34 of the First Schedule, would frequently be quite unsuitable for the fixing of fire hydrants, and it would be inappropriate therefore to place any duty on water undertakers to fix hydrants on these mains. The Amendment would still enable arrangements to be made for fixing hydrants on such mains in suitable cases. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 23, leave out ("the pipes belonging to them") and insert the said new words.—(Viscount Bridport.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BRIDPORT: My Lords, the next Amendment with all the subsequent Amendments up to and including the one on page 78, line 20, are all drafting, and with your Lordships' approval I beg to move that these drafting Amendments be agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 50, line 14, leave out ("streets") and insert ("highways")
Page 54, line 4, leave out from the second ("of") to ("as") in line 6 and insert ("laying, inspecting, repairing, altering, renewing and removing service pipes with any necessary stopcocks and fittings and of breaking open the street for that purpose").
Page 57, line 38, leave out ("by the consumer")
Page 58, line 26, after ("more") insert ("houses or other")
Page 58, line 28, leave out ("building") and insert ("of them")
Page 58, line 29, leave out ("the building") and insert ("it")
Page 61, line 1, leave out ("a water")
Page 64, line 23, leave out ("pipes or other")
Page 66, line 7, leave out ("pipe or other")
Page 66, line 17, leave out ("pipe or other")
Page 66, line 29, leave out ("away")
Page 66, line 29, leave out from ("water") to ("for") in line 30.
Page 68, line 34, after the first ("and") insert ("service")
Page 71, line 5, leave out ("the clear profits of their undertaking") and insert ("revenue")
Page 78, line 20, after ("may") insert ("subject to any express provisions in this Act to the contrary").—(Viscount Bridport.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Second Schedule [Amendments of the Public Health Act, 1936]:
VISCOUNT BRIDPORT VISCOUNT BRIDPORT moved to insert:
"In the proviso to subsection (3) of Section one hundred and twenty-seven the words 'can be drawn off into a receptacle at one point only and' shall be omitted".
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is to bring subsection (3) of Section 127 of the Public Health Act, 1936, into line with this Bill as amended by the Joint Committee. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 26, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bridport.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended in pursuance of the Resolution of Monday, July 24:
VISCOUNT BRIDPORT: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Viscount Bridport.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
An Amendment (Privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS.
3.44 p.m.
LORD SNELL LORD SNELL rose to call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the present position of foreign affairs; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in inviting your Lordships to consider the Motion on the Order Paper which stands in my name I beg to assure the noble Viscount (Viscount Halifax) that it is not put there in order to cause him any inconvenience or to embarrass him in the very many serious tasks that he daily has to face, but one of the essential conditions of democracy is that the nation as well as the Government should be satisfied in public affairs, and as we are about to adjourn for two months it seems appropriate for me to ask the noble Viscount for any information respecting foreign affairs that he thinks he can properly give. I submit that the Government have no real grounds for complaint in regard to the questions that we ask in this and in another place, although in another place the Prime Minister appears to display an irritation and a petulance on these matters which would be appropriate in a vain anti ample spinster who was unsuccessfully trying to slim. But here we are bound to perform a public task as we see it, for we, too, have responsibilities, and I ask your Lordships to remember that we work more or less in the twilight, for, apart from a dribble of somewhat reluctant information that we get from the other side of the Table, we have to rely upon tendentious reports that all too frequently appear in the Press.
Now our reticence in these matters has brought upon us a very solemn reprimand

811
from the Leader of the Liberal Party in another place. He accuses us, because of our consideration, of having kept the present Government in office. If that were true it would be a responsibility that all of us would dread to have upon our consciences, but I do not think that the accusation can be sustained. The noble Viscount, Lord Halifax, is, however, the beneficiary of our natural and perpetual amiability in this matter. I take this opportunity to say with what gratification I, and I think all your Lordships, see that his health and strength are maintained under a weight of responsibility that I, at least, am thankful that I have not to bear. Not since Sir Edward Grey has a Foreign Secretary had to face issues of such sustained gravity. No man is more adept at putting a polish on a dull case than the noble Viscount, and his admonitions to me, which are usual on these occasions, are always given with such lofty moral distinction that I feel I ought to have said grace before I received them. For his own sake and for the public good I hope he will have a peaceful and sustained holiday.
There are one or two questions I desire to ask. I have not put this Motion upon the Paper in order to address your Lordships at any length, but the situation changes so rapidly that information of even a few days ago becomes somewhat out of place, and perhaps the noble Viscount will be able to add to the information that we have recently had in another place. I desire to put to him one or two questions respecting China and the position in the Far East. I should like to know what the present position is there, and what is the immediate outlook. I hope he will be able to assure us that the policy of His Majesty's Government in China has not been and is not likely to be changed and that the Government will continue to support the Chinese currency. I should like him also, if he will, to give to us an interpretation of the formula which has been arrived at in discussions with Japan. That seems to me to be a vague and perplexing document. It recognises "the actual situation." Now what precisely does "the actual situation" mean? It may mean the recognition of Japan as having conquered certain portions of Chinese territory, and the Japanese themselves appear
812
so to interpret it. It concedes to the Japanese that they have
"special requirements for the purpose of safeguarding their own security and maintaining public order in regions under their control"
and says that
"His Majesty-'s Government have no intention of countenancing any act or measure prejudicial to the attainment of the above-mentioned objects by Japanese forces."
That seems to go nearer to offering aid and comfort to the invader of China than any British Government ought to go. I suggest that it is no business of ours to assist an invader of a friendly country, especially a country in which we have vast interests.
I should like to ask the noble Viscount if he can assure us that His Majesty's Government are not going to surrender the four prisoners to Japan who are at present under their charge, without at least very conclusive evidence that they are guilty of the crimes alleged against them. There appears to be no reciprocity on the part of Japan for these apparent concessions. Japan appears daily to repay these considerations with shameful humiliations and sometimes with indignities to British women that no previous British Government would have tolerated. The position of Japan appears to be that if we do not now support her after having made these promises, we shall be guilty of the same faithlessness of which we accused the German Chancellor after the talks in Munich. Both the Japanese and the Axis Powers insist that we have capitulated before the Japanese demands. I should like to ask whether normal trade relationships are to be maintained with Japan in these circumstances in order that she may keep her gold reserves and otherwise help her. In my judgment this is not an occasion for practising the philosophy of "Business as usual." I should like to ask, too, whether the Nine-Power Treaty still stands, and I beg to draw your Lordships' attention to what that Treaty involves. We are to respect the sovereign independence and the territorial and administrative integrity of China, so that it would appear that we have a specific obligation to China in this matter. I should like also to ask whether the Government are in regular contact with the United States of America. I do not put the embarrassing question of what we are going to do in this matter, but I hope that in the Far East

813
at least, our reputation for reliability will be maintained.
In regard to the Polish loan, I understand some accommodation is being arranged, and I should like to ask if any explanation can be given. In regard to Russia, the situation appears to be continuously disappointing. I am not going to assume that Britain is alone responsible for the delay. I have not the facts and I have no right to make assertions, but I cannot help noticing the speed with which the formula at Tokyo was arranged and contrasting it with the exasperating delays that have taken place at Moscow in regard to this arrangement. There may be many reasons to justify what is being done, but Parliament at present does not know what they are. I would like, too, to ask in regard to the position at Danzig whether the noble Viscount will give us any information that he feels it right to divulge. My remarks to-day have been rather in the nature of an interrogation than of a criticism, and I conclude by reminding the House that British citizens, rich and poor, are being asked to make very great sacrifices for the nation's good. They have submitted with a grim courage to the invasion of their traditional liberties. They have proved in a hundred ways that they are ready to support the Government in any rightful stand that they may take against aggression. Party controversies have, in great part, been suspended. It seems to me, therefore, due to the nation that, as far as possible, it should be sustained by such information as the Government can rightfully supply. I beg to move.
3.58 p.m.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD, who had given Notice that he would ask if His Majesty's Government can give to the House any further information as to the position in the Far East; and move for Papers, said: My Lords, some little time ago, I ventured to place on the Order Paper the Notice which stands in my name. At the request of my noble friend the Foreign Secretary I postponed bringing that before your Lordships and left it on the Paper without any day fixed. I found that my noble friend Lord Snell was going to bring forward his Motion dealing with foreign affairs, and I thought it would be desirable that your Lordships should be asked to consider the questions
814
rising under the Motion of which I have given Notice at the same time. Though, of course, I cannot move that Motion, it so happens that everything I wanted to say upon it can be equally said upon the Motion of my noble friend Lord Snell.
I shall not attempt to deal with the whole question of foreign affairs. There are, of course, many topics which I have no doubt are exercising the minds of your Lordships, as they are of everybody else, but in the interests of brevity and other things, I do not propose to touch on anything except the Far Eastern question. What I want to ask my noble friend is whether he can give a rather more specific and clearer explanation of what is the policy of the Government in the Far East. The matter was raised in another place, and the Government then declared by the mouth of the Prime Minister that they would not reverse their policy at the request of another Power. That is no doubt a satisfactory statement as far as it goes, though I should have preferred that it should stop at the word "policy." However, that is probably a smaller matter, because, as far as I have been able to follow the declarations of the Government, that is what they mean: they are not going to reverse their policy. But that leaves some little doubt, in my mind at any rate, as to what that policy which they are not going to reverse really is. In the same declaration made by the Prime Minister I find that the only other indication of the policy is a phrase in which he stated that their goal was to find out some just and equitable settlement of the struggle—that is, the struggle between China and Japan.
I am not, I admit, very much encouraged by that statement. It looks a little to my mind—I hope I am wrong—as if there were a tendency on the part of the Government to put China and Japan on equal terms in connection with this struggle. I cannot conceive any just and equitable settlement of what is going on in the Far East which did not make its foundation the repelling of the Japanese invasion. That invasion I believe to be one of the least justifiable events that has ever taken place in the history of the world. The excuse for it was of the flimsiest description; the way it has been carried on has been a scandal and an outrage to every conception of civilisation. We have read accounts, which have not

815
been contradicted, of how hundreds of Chinese women have been raped and outraged, not by the casual violence of soldiers maddened with slaughter, but as part of a regular organisation of the Japanese Army. We have read accounts of the wholesale destruction of non-combatants, of women and children, in cities which were not fortified, and of how those cities and many others have been deliberately burned by the Japanese forces. We are told, again without any contradiction that I have seen, that a particular direction was made by the Japanese incendiary forces against the Universities and seats of learning which had been established by the Chinese. It is not only the incidental ferocity of the proceedings, but we know that this is all part of a much larger policy advocated by the dominant party in Japan.
Your Lordships will remember statements that were made during the war as to what the policy of Japan really was, which were repudiated. But I observe in the quotations given from the public statements in Japan that it has been repeatedly re-asserted that the object of Japan is to dominate China in the first place and Asia in the second, and at any rate to exclude all European nations and all European individuals from any part of or from any trade in Asia. No doubt that is a policy of long view. I do not suggest that that is a thing that can happen, certainly in my lifetime, nor in all probability in the lifetime of the youngest member of your Lordships' House. But in estimating the present situation it is well, and I believe essential, to keep in mind the whole policy of which it is a part. One cannot help noticing the curious resemblance there is between this policy of Japan—or I should say, for I do not know how far it is accepted by the whole of Japan, the policy of the military party in Japan—and the policy of the present régime in Germany. I do not say that they are identical; they are not, but there is a very strange resemblance between the two policies. It may be partly accounted for by the fact, as I have always understood, that the Japanese Army was trained by German officers, and it may be that they gave them not only their military skill but also their views on political and international affairs.
I cannot imagine that there is any question in the mind of any of your Lordships as to what, broadly speaking, our interest and our duty are in the face of that policy. They are, I venture to think, quite apart from those special interests—and they are very considerable, as your Lordships know—in the Far East which are subsidiary to our main purpose. Our main purpose must be the maintenance of peace and submission to some form of orderly proceedings in international affairs. In this case our position, which I take it is, or ought to be, universally true in all our dealings in international matters, becomes perhaps exceptionally clear in view of our treaty obligations and international declarations. My noble friend referred, I think, to the Nine-Power Treaty, and your Lordships will perhaps forgive me if I make a very short further reference to that Treaty. It was signed, as your Lordships know, seventeen years ago, in 1922. It was signed by the United States, Belgium, the British Empire, China, France, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands and Portugal.
The first paragraph of its first Article binds the Powers
"to respect the sovereignty, the independence, and the territorial and administrative integrity of China."
Article 2—this is what seems to me to have a considerable bearing on the present state of things—reads:
"The Contracting Powers agree not to enter into any treaty, agreement, arrangement, or understanding, either with one another, or, individually or collectively, with any Power or Powers, which would infringe or impair the principles stated in Article 1."
That is to say, we are bound, not only to the other fellow-signatories of this document but also to China, to respect her sovereignty, independence, territorial and administrative integrity, and not by any declaration or other document to infringe or impair the principles of that guarantee. It does not stand there only. Since this war began more than two years ago various international declarations have been made to which the British Government assented, and indeed in some cases actively moved. Thus, on October 6, 1937, they agreed that
"the military operations carried on by Japan against China by land, sea and air can be justified neither on the basis of existing legal instruments, nor on that of the right of self-defence, and that (they are) in contravention of Japan's obligations under the Nine-Power Treaty … and under the Pact of Paris."

817
That was what they said on October 6, 1937.
On September 30, 1938, a very little time ago, the Council of the League further agreed—and the British Government were represented—that the Members of the League were entitled to act on the basis of the finding that Japan's proceedings were unjust and also other findings which they had made; and also to adopt individually the measures provided for in Article 16, and they recommended that Members of the League
"should refrain from taking any action which might have the effect of weakening China's power of resistance, and thus of increasing her difficulties in the present conflict, and should also consider how far they can individually extend aid to China."
I ought to have mentioned that they had previously, on May 14 of last year, or just after the present Government came into office, earnestly urged the Members of the League "to do their utmost to give effect to the recommendations" contained in the resolutions that I have just read.
They further proceeded to say that:
"Although the co-ordination of the measures that have been, or may be taken by Governments cannot yet be considered, the fact none the less remains that China, in her heroic struggle against the invader, has a right to the sympathy and aid of the other Members of the League. The grave international tension that has developed in another part of the world cannot make them forget either the sufferings of the Chinese people or their duty of doing nothing that might weaken China's powe of resistance, or their undertaking to consider how far they can individally extend aid to China."
Finally, on May 22 of this year, the Council again agreed, with the assent of the British Government, to a declaration in favour of China. Noting, they said, with satisfaction, that a number of States had taken certain measures in aiding China, they earnestly expressed the hope that such measures would be continued, and that the resolutions previously adopted by the Assembly and Council would be further implemented. That, of course, is all in addition to the general obligation which the Government have undertaken that they will respect and preserve as against external aggression—that is to say, in this case as against Japanese invasion—the territorial integrity and political independence of China. That is the position, quite apart from the general interest that we have,
818
as I think, in the maintenance of peace everywhere, and I think one may say particularly in the Far East.
I must admit that I am exceedingly anxious to be reassured that there is nothing in the declaration agreed to at Tokyo which is inconsistent with the obligations and declarations to which I have called your Lordships' attention. I hope that is so, but I am, I admit, anxious on this subject. In the first place the Prime Minister of Japan has made a statement which I read to your Lordships a day or two ago, and I need not read the whole of it again. He said, in the first place, that these arrangements did not apply only to Tientsin, but to the whole of China, and he said:
"The basic arrangement established between Japan and Great Britain did not only prove a big shock to the Chungking Government, but will serve as a favourable factor in disposing of the China incident"—
that is to say, the victory of Japan. He goes on to say—and this seems to be in complete conflict with the views of His Majesty's Government—that he does not think the British Government would assist General Chiang Kai-shek's régime by granting credits or otherwise, and that if she did her action would be considered as hostile to Japan. It is true that this statement comes from the daily Press. It was a statement, as I understand it, to newspaper representatives in Japan, but as far as I have been able to observe it has never been repudiated or contradicted since it appeared.
That is the view of Japan about this agreement. What is the view of China? I have no official information, except that I have seen a speech delivered by General Chiang Kai-shek in which he regards it as unthinkable that the British Government should enter into any kind of compromise with Japan. But since that has occurred I have received, and I dare say other members of your Lordships' House have received, a considerable number of telegrams from bodies, some in China itself, some in Singapore and the Malay Peninsula—Chinese bodies—and even in Manila, protesting earnestly against this agreement, on the ground that it has at any rate the appearance of favouring or being favourable to Japan.
It is not only so, but I admit I was very much struck by a statement which was published in a paper which we all respect,

819
The Times—a statement by its diplomatic correspondent yesterday. I cannot tell, of course, what authority the correspondent had, but it is a statement made with what I think our friends abroad will regard as semi-official authority. I do not know whether that is accurate or not. The correspondent sets out the announcement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government's views "as to the desirability of maintaining the Chinese currency in the interests of this country" and of other countries, remain unaltered, and he also cites—though I do not quite see the relevance of that—with great gratification, the arrangements that have been made to enable traders to supply goods, that is to say, to enable them to get payment for goods sent, to China. Then there is this rather striking comment:
"They show again the British Government's determination not to change their policy towards China, while seeking with no lack of good will to establish a working arrangement with the Japanese soldiers in North China."
I confess that I should find it very difficult to say that I have no lack of good will for the Japanese soldiers in any part of China.
Now what are we to do in this situation? Your Lordships may well ask me, though it is not my business to say what ought to be done. Still, you may say: "You express doubts as to these things, what would you have us do?" We have seen what the Administration of the United States have recently done. They have formally given notice that they will not be bound by their commercial treaty with Japan after a period of six months, which is the notice they are bound to give. I observe that when this was called to the attention of the Prime Minister he said (I forget the precise phrase) that they did not feel it was essential for them to do exactly the same thing as the United States, but that their policy was parallel. I hope my noble friend will be able to tell us what parallel step the Government think of taking in reference to this very striking declaration of the American President. And what other steps are they going to take; what, in fact, is their policy in this matter? That really does seem to me to be what we have to recognise. What do we want? We certainly cannot want the victory of Japan. But do we
820
not realise that if we do not want the victory of Japan, we must want the victory of China? There is nothing else. It is not a case of two armies meeting on the frontier of one or other of these two countries. This is a case where the Japanese Army has invaded and occupied large tracts of Chinese soil, with the methods I have alluded to, and therefore the first thing must be the withdrawal of Japan if we are not to favour the utterly indefensible actions of that country.
Of course, everybody knows the difficulties of the present situation, and I quite understand that it may be—I do not know at all whether it is—that the Government regard it as a matter of extreme importance not to do anything which will lead to Japanese retaliation. Certainly I should regret that as much as anybody, but I am quite sure that the most dangerous thing you can do in circumstances of that kind is to show that you are afraid of Japanese retaliation. It is the old case of the savage dog. As long as you can show a bold face to the dog I understand that he seldom attacks you, but the moment you turn tail or run away or even show anxiety, the danger of an attack becomes much greater. It is much better to be quite frank about these things, and I quite recognise that for us to face, it might be, a universal attack on our possessions in the Far East, would be extremely awkward for us. That is quite possible, but your Lordships must consider that if there is a Japanese victory the whole of our possessions in the Far East will be unquestionably swept away. No reasonable man can doubt that that would be the result. We cannot doubt—because we have always been on good terms with the Chinese and because we are there on sufferance—that the moment the Japanese decide that they have got overwhelming power and are no longer troubled by the grave difficulties in which they are no doubt placed at this moment, the moment they have destroyed China they will certainly turn and destroy us. That seems to me a matter which is well worth the Government's consideration in deciding how far they will risk the present safety of those possessions.
Then I presume that the conception is, that, by coming to some such agreement as apparently we are still discussing in Tokyo, we shall conciliate Japan.

821
I cannot see on what ground that anticipation is based. It was my fortune to have something to do with Japanese diplomacy in 1931. I found that every concession you made to Japan simply invited them to make further demands, and to base their further demands on what they had already got. There seems to me very little sign of any conciliation at present. There is a tremendous campaign against this country going on in Japan. There are reports in the Press of further indignities offered to British subjects. There is the very significant fact that, according to our papers, a large part of the Japanese propaganda is based on the thesis that we are quite powerless to resist. I can only say that it seems to me foolish to imagine that by anything short of abject surrender—and indeed that would not do it—you are going to conciliate Japan. Looked at merely from the point of view of the oldest form of British, or of any other, diplomatic desirability, it does seem a very strange form of diplomacy that, having inevitably quarrelled with Japan, we should now proceed to quarrel with China also.
I have put this matter, I hope, with moderation; I have certainly tried to do so. I think it is a matter which is worthy of your Lordships' very careful consideration. I confess that when I look at the proceedings of these two parties—Japan with an arrogant indifference to all international obligations and to all the principles of justice, and China who has, as far as I know, carried out every single one of her obligations, who has done her best to co-operate with the Western Powers, particularly this country, no doubt partly because that is her interest, who has behaved throughout, and long before this, with absolute propriety, and who has been making prodigious efforts to restore her country, improve her communications and increase her education, all leading in the path of what we regard as progress (and just because these things were succeeding I believe Japan hastened the attack she made upon her)—I confess when I look at the two countries, I hope without prejudice, I feel it is incredibly humiliating that we should be taking action which is regarded by both of them as favourable to Japan and unfavourable to China and that we should once again have, at any rate, the appearance
822
of abandoning that country which has done most to deserve our help.
4.32 p.m.
LORD DAVIES LORD DAVIES had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask the Foreign Secretary what steps are being taken to implement the statements on foreign policy recently made by representatives of His Majesty's Government; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I find myself in the position of my noble friend who has just sat down because when I put this Motion on the Paper it seemed to me it would provide the only opportunity for discussion of these important matters before your Lordships adjourned for the Recess. Since then the Motion of my noble friend has also appeared on the Paper, and consequently I transferred my Motion for discussion to-day. My object was to take advantage of this opportunity to protest against the decision announced by the Prime Minister in another place to adjourn Parliament until the month of October. Surely in these critical days through which we are passing, and having regard to what happened during the Recess twelve months ago, it is not unreasonable to suggest that Parliament should meet in the interval between now and October to take stock of the situation and to give the Government its moral support if any crisis suddenly supervened. I believe there is a feeling very widely shared, not only by the Opposition Parties but also by those who support the Government, that before October the Government may be called upon to make far-reaching decisions, and that in these circumstances they should take Parliament into their confidence before, not after, a final decision has been reached. Therefore I would ask the noble Viscount opposite to give us some assurance, if he can, upon this point, and also whether he can assure us that without previous consultation with your Lordships' House there will be no departure from the policy he announced in his speech of June 29, which I believe was endorsed by all shades of opinion throughout the country.
We have already discussed three subjects. First, I should like to say a few words in regard to the negotiations with the Russian Government. I trust the Foreign Secretary will be able to give us some further information upon this matter. As your Lordships will remember,

823
these negotiations commenced on March 18, when the Foreign Office inquired whether the Government of Russia would support Rumania in the event of an attack. Since that date, over a period of four months, these negotiations have dragged on interminably, causing a great deal of anxiety and also, I am afraid, in some quarters a considerable amount of suspicion as to the real intentions of His Majesty's Government. The noble Lord who moved the Motion deplored these unfortunate delays, which in one instance amounted to more than three weeks and in another to thirteen or fourteen days. They have been due, I fear, to no procrastination on the part of the Soviet Government, but to the dilatory tactics of our Foreign Office. At a time of extreme emergency it is difficult to understand why there should have been all these delays. In these days of rapid communication it is really impossible to comprehend why so much time should have been needed to frame our replies on the points submitted by the representatives of the U.S.S.R., although we have to remember that on each occasion our Government had to consult with the authorities in France. That, of course, made some difference.
Another point I should like to make is this, that it is surely of the utmost importance, when the issues at stake are so vital, that these proceedings should be conducted not in an atmosphere of haggling, but in one of cordiality and friendship. After all that has happened, it is surely essential to create a feeling of mutual confidence, otherwise no pact or bargain, however carefully drafted, is likely to produce the results we all desire. In consequence of that I would suggest once more to the noble Viscount opposite, as I did some time ago, that he or some other prominent member of the Cabinet should undertake a visit to Moscow at the earliest opportunity so as to establish personal contacts with the responsible Ministers there. After all, the noble Viscount went to Berlin and to Rome in pursuit of the policy of appeasement. Why, therefore, may I ask him, with all respect, should he not display at least an equal solicitude for his new policy of building up a Peace Front in order to resist aggression? May I also remind him that in 1917 Lord Milner, who was a member of the Cabinet,
824
accompanied a Military Mission to Russia?
I should like if I may to congratulate the Government upon their decision to despatch a Military Mission now. All I venture to plead for is that the noble Viscount, or one of his colleagues, should accompany it in order that further delays may be avoided and the protracted negotiations may be brought to a successful issue. There is one other question I should like to ask before leaving this subject. We have now, apparently, agreed on all the points in the Russian proposals except the definition of what constitutes indirect aggression. I wonder if the Foreign Secretary can tell us whether there is a clause in the Polish Pact which deals with this question of indirect aggression, and if so, is there any reason why a similar clause should not be inserted in the proposed pact with Russia?
Now I come to another subject, the position of Danzig. Your Lordships must have been disturbed by the numerous statements which have appeared recently describing the fortifications which are being erected in and around the free city, the smuggling of arms, and other activities, all of which are a direct breach of the Danzig Statute. From the standpoint of International Law we all know that Danzig is a free city under the protection of the League, and under the terms of the Statute fortifications are forbidden, no munitions can be manufactured, and the harbour cannot be used as a naval base. I do not want to embarrass the Foreign Secretary, but I am wondering whether he can tell us what steps are being taken to prevent the infringement of those Articles. Several years ago I ventured to suggest that an International Police Force should be installed in Danzig to ensure that the terms of this Statute were respected. Whether this is practicable now I do not feel that I am in a position to offer any opinion, but if, as in the case of the Saar, it was possible, then that probably might be one way of endeavouring to solve the problem. In any ca se I think your Lordships will all agree that if Danzig is to retain its present status as a free city under the League we cannot allow matters to drift indefinitely, and in conjunction with the signatories of that Statute is it not possible to take some steps to uphold the sanctity of International Law?
Lastly, as my noble friend Lord Cecil has reminded your Lordships, there is the menacing situation in the Far East. Here, again, unfortunately there has been a failure on the part of the Government to observe any coherent policy. I agree with every word which has fallen from the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, and from the Leader of the Opposition. It seems to me that the trouble with the Government is that collectively, at any rate, they refuse to recognise as such the most flagrant acts of aggression in whatever quarter of the world they may be perpetrated. Your Lordships will recollect that as far back as the Manchurian crisis the Chancellor of the Exchequer closed his eyes to it when, as Foreign Secretary, he placed an embargo upon the supply of munitions not only to Japan, who then was the aggressor, but also to China, the victim of aggression. I notice from his speech in another place that the Prime Minister takes very much the same attitude of neutrality, which I believe is hopelessly impracticable. On the other hand, the Foreign Secretary, in his speeches both here and at Geneva, has shown conclusively that he regards the attack of Japan upon China as immoral and indefensible. I believe he is right, but how is it possible, may I ask, to run with the hare and to hunt with the hounds?
If we have any regard for treaty obligations, the Nine-Power Treaty for instance, or for our signature of the Covenant, or for the reputation of the British. Empire in the Far East, or even for our commercial and trading interests in China, surely it is imperative to make up our minds to support the Chinese Government. I ask your Lordships how can we expect to be successful in our negotiations with Russia, or to inspire the confidence of General Chiang Kai-Shek if we condone the brutal campaign which Japan has been carrying on in China, and if we are prepared also to carry on negotiations with the aggressor which are bound, sooner or later, to bring us into antagonism with the Chinese Government? Clearly I think we shall inevitably run the risk of falling between two stools. If we regard it from the standpoint of British interests alone is it not better, is it not more statesmanlike, to assist China in her battle for freedom than to capitulate to Japan? If Japan wins this war she will treat this vast country and its teeming population as a
826
Japanese preserve from which all European trade and commerce will undoubtedly be excluded.
I would therefore join with my noble friends in appealing to the Foreign Secretary to collaborate with the President of the United States and his Government, and, if necessary, to withdraw our nationals from the Treaty Ports where, apparently, we are unable to reinforce or to protect them, to base our defences upon Hong Kong or Singapore, to succour and support the Chinese Government in every possible way, to repatriate if necessary Japanese citizens from all parts of the British Empire, and to sever all economic relations with Japan. I would suggest very humbly that if a bold constructive policy on these lines was approved by the Government, especially in co-operation with the United States, then in a relatively short period the strangle-hold of the Japanese military on China would be relaxed, and 500,000,000 Chinese would be rescued from the appalling slavery which otherwise may be their lot.
4.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, it is nearly two months since, in this House, we had a general survey of the foreign situation, and in these days two months is a very long time. Various developments have taken place during that interval. Among the chief has been the rapid development of British defensive armaments, on which the whole of our policy must necessarily depend, for policy must always depend upon strength. There was an old English writer—I do not know whether the noble Viscount's attention has ever been drawn to this quotation—who said: "Let not thy will roar when thy power can but whisper." That adage is one which has permanent validity. Secondly, during these recent months, we have watched with great satisfaction one development, to which no reference has been made here this afternoon so far as I am aware, and that is the economic and political recovery of France. That unquestionably is exercising a great influence on the course of events, first in the Mediterranean and also in Europe and throughout the world. Thirdly, our ties have happily been drawn closer with Turkey, Rumania, Greece, Portugal and Poland. That is a fact which again is of great international moment.

827
Although an agreement with Russia has not yet been completed neither on the other hand have negotiations broken down, and there is every reason to hope that they will be carried to a successful conclusion. I think there would have been less disappointment with regard to the slow progress of the negotiations with the Soviet if on two or three occasions at an earlier stage there had not been evidently inspired declarations from the Government that a pact was on the point of signature. That proved on each occasion to be a premature hope. It is a sound axiom never to prophesy unless you know, and it was certainly an error for the Government to allow the impression to go abroad that an agreement with Russia was immediately at hand. However, now military action is being concerted, and perhaps that is of even greater importance than the signature of a detailed pact. If the noble Viscount the Foreign Secretary is able to make any statement—I do not know whether he can or whether it may be inconvenient to do so—if he can with advantage make a statement on the course of negotiations, I am sure the information would be very gratefully received.
There are two points of special interest at the present time—Danzig and the Far East—and I would venture to address to your Lordships some brief observations on both these and then conclude. The situation in Danzig, as all the world knows, arises from the fact that both of the contending parties have some degree of right on their side—the Germans from the point of view of nationality, and the Poles from the standpoint of economic and strategical conditions. There is, therefore, every reason for advocating a compromise between them, but that compromise has already been carried into effect. The compromise that was desirable was arrived at after the War and has been the basis of the régime which has been in force in Danzig for the last twenty years. That this compromise was not wholly offensive to Germany was clear from the fact that Herr Hitler himself, of his own free will, made a treaty recognising it for the period of ten years, of which only five years has so far elapsed. Therefore, those who advocate a compromise between Germany and Poland can also say that the compromise has
828
been already reached and is now in fact in operation.
The parallel between the present situation in Danzig and that in what was Sudetenland is somewhat close. Sudetenland was to Czecho-Slovakia as Danzig is to Poland. But there are certain differences. In the first place, the Germans in Danzig have full freedom to manage their own affairs, of which they are taking every possible advantage, while in Sudetenland that was not so. Secondly, if the Reich absorbs Danzig completely, the geographical positions are such that the threat will be far greater to Poland than the absorption of Sudetenland by the Reich need have been to Czecho-Slovakia. Thirdly, the experience in the one case is a guide in the other, for what has happened to Czecho-Slovakia after the Reich had absorbed Sudetenland is a very good indication of what may happen, though no doubt perhaps in a somewhat different form, to Poland if the Reich also absorbs Danzig. The present situation is of a most exceptional character, as the action taken by the Reich is not in the nature of a direct military aggression, but of infiltration, and the question arises at what point does infiltration become aggression. It is somewhat the same problem as how many stones make a heap. When is it that action such as has been going on in the last few months becomes so formidable to Poland that it has to be regarded, taken in the total, as aggression? British policy in this matter has now been clearly defined, and we are not likely to go back on it, but if it should happen that it should be convenient for the noble Viscount the Foreign Secretary to make any observations on this point, I am sure they also will be gratefully welcomed.
With regard to the situation in China, and especially in relation to the events in Tientsin, I think the Government will agree that the Oppositions, both Labour and Liberal, have been very restrained in this matter. It would have been very easy for opponents of the Government to taunt them on their failure to protect British rights, but it has been quite apparent from the beginning what the limitations on British action at Tientsin have been. The Government have declared that the formula reached at Tokyo does not involve any change of policy, and I would join with my noble friends

829
Lord Snell and Lord Cecil in urging the Government to make it quite plain that that applies in the fullest measure to the question of support for the Chinese currency which is, at this moment, the vital point in the struggle between China and Japan. The difficulties in that part of the world have largely arisen from the duality in the Government of Japan. The Constitution of Japan gives equal status to the Army as to the Civil Government—and also to the Navy, though in these days the Navy is more in the background. It is not only the statesmen who decide the policy of Japan but also the General Staff and both have equal access to the Throne and equal status under the Emperor.
The General Staff themselves are again and again being committed, possibly against their will, by the intransigence of the junior officers in the Army and the extent to which that intransigence may go was seen in the terrible assassinations in 1936. A few years ago, I had the privilege and advantage of being the Chairman of a delegation of the Royal Institute of International Affairs that went to Banff in Canada for one of the periodical conferences of the Institute of Pacific Relations. My noble friend Lord Snell, I am happy to remember, was one of my colleagues on that occasion. That conference, like the other conferences of the Institute of Pacific Relations—the word "Pacific" there referring to the ocean—was attended by representatives of similar institutes in Japan, China, the United States, Canada, France, and indeed all the countries concerned with the Pacific, except Russia. The impression that was left upon my mind was that if the policy of Japan were controlled by the statesmen it might be possible to arrive at agreement and at a renewal of the old traditional friendship between Britain and Japan in which we all took so much pride and satisfaction in earlier years. But unhappily, as I say, the statesmen are frequently overruled by the Generals, and the Generals committed by their junior officers.
If the Japanese are content to accept that state of affairs, that is their concern, but there is no reason why the British Empire should allow its policy to be swayed by the vehemence and violence of the colonels and majors of the Japanese Army. That Army, as my
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noble friend Lord Cecil mentioned, was largely trained under the influence of Germany. Many of the higher ranks have received their education either in Germany or from German Staff officers, and unquestionably they are in close touch with the authorities in Berlin. It is very easy to see the hand that has been behind the events at Tientsin. At the present time there is every reason to believe that the Japanese army are bitterly disappointed at the failure of their military efforts to secure a decision in China after a period of two years. There is a feeling among them, so it is said, of anger, of resentment and almost of fear, as of a man who finds himself sinking slowly in a quicksand. They vent these feelings upon some scapegoat, and we in the British Empire have been made the scapegoat. After all, the British are not the only Power with concessions in China. Many nations have interests there, but there is a reason why this country is specially singled out for attack.
The United States have taken two very significant actions, animated not only by their own great economic interests in the Far East but also by what they conceive to be their duty to the world at large. The United States have made their position very clear in two ways. First—it has now been almost forgotten by many people—President Roosevelt moved the whole of the American Fleet from the Atlantic into the Pacific, a most significant action taken some months ago; and secondly, in the last few days they have given notice to terminate, at the end of the six months' period required by the Treaty, the Commercial Treaty between the United States and Japan. There is no reason to suppose that that action has been taken for any purely commercial reason; unquestionably it is intended to have a political significance. In those circumstances I think that His Majesty's Government may be encouraged to refuse to adopt any policy of mere surrender to pressure. A policy of surrender does not win either the respect of your opponents or the good will of your friends.
I do not think it has been mentioned to-day, but one consideration that must be prominent in the minds of the Government is the fact that one of our great Dominions, Australia, has a very large interest in all Pacific questions and particularly

831
in our relations with Japan, both commercial and strategic. When the matter of Manchukuo was prominently before the world in 1931 and 1932, there is no doubt that the interests of Australia played an important part in influencing the mind of the Government at home during that period. I trust that the Government and people of Australia will recognise that a policy of constant retreat is neither likely to succeed in the long run nor be consistent either with the dignity or the interests of the British Empire; that it results merely in loss of honour without buying safety. I hope, therefore, that the intransigence of the Japanese Army, the violent anti-British agitation which is now going on in China, and the insults directed against our citizens there, will not cause a weakening but rather a stiffening in the attitude of His Majesty's Government.
We cannot but admire, I think, the courage, the endurance and the self-sacrifice of the Chinese people in the presence of overwhelming disaster; and I confess I could not read without emotion the appeal of General Chiang Kai-shek, which was published in a British newspaper a few days ago and in which he says:
"I firmly believe the British Government and people will not treat an aggrieved nation in the same light and same manner as an aggressor nation; will remain faithful to their promise to respect International Law and treaties; and will not help an aggressor nation against China, who is fighting in self-defence to uphold justice."
Those are very cogent and feeling words. I am glad that His Majesty's Government have taken steps lately to reinforce Singapore, and if the Tokyo Conference should not succeed and Japanese pressure should increase, I trust that the Government will consider more definitely taking the same action as the United States have taken. I believe that if the Government came to the conclusion, with the full knowledge that is in their possession, that it was desirable to give twelve months' notice—for that Treaty requires that longer term, unfortunately—of termination of our Commercial Treaty with Japan, that would be approved by our people at large. There we have a means, in conjunction with the United States, of bringing most effective economic pressure to bear upon Japan. We should be able to stop those supplies without which it would be impossible for her to carry on her warfare.
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One particular point in regard to the Far East on which I should like to address a question to the noble Viscount relates to the position of Colonel Spear, our Military Attaché, who although he should enjoy diplomatic privileges has been for a long time under arrest and apparently is about to be placed under trial by the Japanese. A question was asked of the noble Viscount in this House in a former debate, and he replied:
"In regard to his case [Colonel Spear's] I cannot speak fully until I have an account from himself."
But, the noble Viscount continued:
"I have no reason to anticipate that matters in regard to Colonel Spear will not be satisfactorily settled."
The date of that debate was June 12. We are now at the beginning of August, and I trust that the noble Viscount will be able to make reference to that case and to give us some satisfactory information.
The House is now about to go into Recess, which I am glad is for two months and not for three, though the reasons that would make us satisfied with that Recess are not personal but purely political. But there is a sense of uneasiness in a large section of the nation lest during this Recess some circumstances may occur which many of us would regard as regrettable. Some action may be taken, or more probably some inaction may take place where action was necessary. The past record in many respects of the present Government is such as to make many uncertain that where vigour and energy are required they will necessarily be shown, and I trust that when we meet again in October it may not be said that those fears have been realised. As to the general policy of the Government, as stated by the noble Viscount himself in his great speech on June 29, I believe that that is supported by the whole nation. That speech was received with a unanimity and warmth of approval which few statesmen at any time have been able to elicit. The nation is solid behind that policy if the Government will pursue it with vigour and energy, and I trust the noble Viscount, under the burden of his daily anxieties—a burden so heavy and anxieties so grave; the burden which he carries on behalf of us all with so fine a sense of duty—may feel fortified by the fact of that support.
5.11 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I do not propose to take part in the general debate on foreign affairs to-day. My intention is to speak to the Motion on the Paper in the name of my noble friend Lord Cecil, referring to the Far East. I do not know that I can follow my noble friend in some of the paths which he has pursued, or the deductions which be has drawn, but I do wish to support the statements that have been made by two or three noble Lords who have spoken, with regard to the strong feeling in this country, and in the Far East, to my knowledge, in regard to the treatment by the Japanese of our nationals in China and in regard to the anti-British propaganda, and in fact the general manner in which the Japanese are conducting affairs there so far as we are concerned.
This Conference in Tokyo seems to me to be upon very vague lines, and I should like to ask my noble friend Lord Halifax whether he can state quite clearly that the statement which was made by Baron Hiranuma to the Japanese Press almost directly after the Craigie-Arita formula had been arrived at, is not correct. Baron Hiranuma claimed that it would bind us to satisfy Japanese requirements, and would be a bad shock to the Chinese Government. That is the sort of propaganda that is being put about in Japan, and it is very deleterious not only to our prestige in the East but to the very questions which are being dealt with or are supposed to be dealt with at that Conference. We all know—it has been referred to this afternoon—that there are two very vital matters which are now being discussed at the Tokyo Conference, and which are perhaps the most critical issues at the moment.
I refer first of all to the proposed recognition of the Japanese Federated Reserve Bank currency in North China, and to the $50,000,000 in silver lying in British and French banks in Tientsin. So far as that silver is concerned, from a cable received by The Times from their Tokyo correspondent we understand that the Japanese argue that this silver belongs not to the Central Chinese Government but to the old local Peking Government, and that the silver naturally passes to the Japanese puppet Government, which has replaced the former
834
Government. If we accept this argument it means that we are recognising the Japanese puppet Government in Peking, whereas the old Peking Government was a branch of the Central Government and not an independent Government at all. Consequently, to recognise that would be to recognise that the Peking Government was not a branch of the Central Government, which it actually was. Not only did this silver belong to the Chinese who lodged it with us for security, but it is not in Chinese banks but in British and French banks, and the silver is not ours to give up. We really are in the position of a banker with a gangster holding a pistol at his head and demanding that the jewellery stored with him by clients for safe keeping should be handed over. We have no more right to hand over that silver than the banker would have, if he could resist the demand, the right to hand over his clients' jewellery.
As to the Federated Reserve Bank currency, I should like to give a few details why it is important that this currency be not recognised. We see in the Press from time to time a general statement saying that it would be disastrous if it were recognised. I should like to give, very shortly, a few details why we should refuse to recognise it. For instance, if we were to recognise that currency in North China we should have to recognise it everywhere else. We would enable the Japanese to establish an economic bloc between China, Japan and Manchukuo, which is their great aim. Then it is a blocked currency, and the Japs will never sell foreign exchange for it. This is actually happening in Manchukuo, where one can only buy for 1,000 yuan about £50 of foreign currency. Then, if we were to recognise that currency we should implicitly recognise that the Chinese national dollar is not good currency, though this is the only money which our banks in China hold, and in which our people do all their business.
I think Lord Cecil did say that we would commit a violation of neutrality if we recognised this Japanese currency. It would really be an act of treachery towards the Chinese and an act which I am sure they would never forgive. I want to urge the noble Viscount, who will reply to this debate, that he will tell us to-day, emphatically, that there is no intention of handing over that silver or of recognising that currency. Statements

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have been made in another place by the Prime Minister which are certainly not very definite in regard to those two matters, and I am going to ask the noble Viscount to-day to give an emphatic denial of the suggestion that that silver may be handed over, altogether or in part, and that there will be any question of recognising the Japanese currency.
I should like to pass just for a few moments to the question of the position of Japan itself. Japan has had two years of war and her Budget for those two years reached nearly £1,500,000,000. She has an adverse balance with countries from which she has to buy raw materials, which is steadily increasing, and her gold reserves are estimated to have sunk from over £100,000,000 to £29,000,000. Owing to the guerrillas' activities in China she can get none of the iron, coal and cotton from China which she expected to secure. She herself only knows how many men and what munitions she has lost in China. Since the capture of Hankow, she has had no military success. On the contrary, in Central and Northern China she has suffered considerable reverses. Then the pressure of Russia is reported on good authority to have forced her recently to withdraw men to Manchuria. In the light of those facts, any suggestion that Japan should declare war on us if we take a firm stand seems to be surely wiped out of consideration altogether. We must also take into consideration the important fact that on July 27 the United States denounced her trade treaty with Japan. It is said that the effect of the American denunciation of that Treaty will not take place for six months, but that is not actually the case, because it is obvious that merchants who know that six months hence that Treaty will be abrogated are not going to enter into forward contracts. Consequently the effects of that denunciation must already be felt to-day.
I take the view that the Tokyo Conference must go on. But in view of the fact that there are moderate-minded people in Japan as well as the warmongers, and that it is only through those moderate-minded people that ultimately the warmongers will be controlled, I think we should at least say that we intend to take some action in co-operation with America in order to further our case, as America is furthering hers. Whether
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that should be by the denunciation of the Anglo-Japanese Treaty of 1911, or whether it should be by the closing of certain ports to Japanese shipping, I cannot say—that is for the Government to decide. But that we should now take stronger action than we have taken in the past, in the light of the circumstances which I have related as to Japan's position, I think is perfectly obvious.
Speaking about the position of Japan in China, my noble friend Lord Cecil suggested that the Japanese might be cleared out of China, or rather that we should never stop until the Japanese were cleared out of China. I do not take that view. I believe a situation has been reached in which the Japanese are likely to remain in parts of China, for the simple reason that the Chinese, with the arms and equipment at their disposal, will never be able to drive them out. In fact, with the economic situation in Japan, and the position of the Japanese as well as the Chinese in China, I believe that in a very short time there will be a stalemate. Then will come the time for mediation. My noble friend Lord Cecil may not like that word, because I think he would like the Japanese driven out of China altogether. But actually I do not see that at all. The war between Japan and China is one with which certainly we do not agree, but if we are to act as police for all the world, there can be no end to our troubles. If, on the other hand, we could act as mediators, and could do anything to help to bring this war to a close in conditions in which the Japanese and the Chinese would find themselves living in amity in the future, then we ourselves could remain in that part of the world, preserving our interests and position there, and preserving in fact the position of the European world in that area. I again ask the noble Viscount to give an emphatic assurance, in his reply, with regard to the two points I mentioned earlier in my speech—namely, the silver at Tientsin, and the Japanese currency; and I urge him in the light of the matters I have mentioned to stand firm—firmer than the Government have stood hitherto.
5.28 p.m.
LORD RENNELL: My Lords, no direct criticism of the Government is foreshadowed in the terms of the Resolution brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord

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Snell, which has been supplemented since by two further Motions to which no doubt His Majesty's Government will reply in due course. I do not propose myself to touch upon the Far East, which has already consumed a good deal of the time available to the House this afternoon. I would offer only a very few general observations arising out of the first Motion, which rather suggested to me that in drawing attention to the present position of foreign affairs the noble Lord who submitted it must have in his mind some clearly defined appreciation of what that position is. If so, he certainly has the advantage of me. Although I have devoted the greater part of a lifetime to the observation of foreign affairs with some attention, I have to admit that they have seldom, if ever, seemed to me so perplexing as at the present time—and that perhaps largely owing to the contrast which I perceive between the desire of the peoples of most countries for peace and the provocative utterances of those who direct their policies.
What is the position so far as it can be ascertained by the average man? He would, I presume, consider from the sources of information which are open to him that of recent years there has been a steady drift towards a division of the more powerful States into two antagonistic groups—one aggressive in character, the other defensive—while many smaller States are chiefly concerned to maintain their neutrality and to offer no pretext for provoking intervention from other quarters by seeking safeguards against a menace to their own security. The common basis of association between what he regards as the aggressive States is the alleged injustice of Peace Treaties in having taken too much from one and having given too little to the other.
My forty years' residence in foreign countries has led me to be very sceptical about friendships between States. Their association has very little to do with friendship, which appears to me to be a misnomer as applied to States. Their mutual attraction at any given time is derived solely from their believed interests. On the other hand, there may be friendships between peoples, the result of tradition or appreciation on the part of one of qualities or characteristics in the other which inspire regard or sympathy. Such friendships as these we should be
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studious to cultivate and to maintain, bearing in mind that while administrators and methods of government are liable to change popular sentiment inclines to permanence.
A spirit of friendly good will between ourselves and the Italian people has been traditional for a century. It is still evident there to-day to those who know that country well, in spite of the imputations of a rigorously managed Press which might lead a superficial observer to assume that it had been replaced by irreconcilable antagonism. In the inspired organs also you will find a continual reaffirmation of the indissoluble bond of friendship which unites the Powers of the Axis, so persistent as almost to suggest misgivings as to the conviction it carries. Meanwhile all the British who visit Italy—of late, perhaps, less numerous than they used to be—find only a very cordial welcome and the assurance that war with us is unthinkable. It is now some two years or more since I was last in Germany, but at that time at any rate I found it difficult to detect in the popular feeling expressed to me much to justify the venomous outbursts against this country which characterise the speeches of certain politicians and articles in the controlled Press. It must, however, be admitted that to-day there are some very disquieting symptoms in an apparent mobilisation on the frontiers of Germany and a readiness to attract and conciliate Italy by consenting to the removal of large numbers of a population of ancient Germanic stock from their old homes in Tyrol.
We know how profoundly our own people and those of our neighbour and ally, France, desire peace. Now if, as my experience on the Continent has led me to believe, the mass of the people nowhere desires war, it does seem to me that one more effort might be made to bring together those whose guidance they have accepted or tolerated, to discuss in the light of reason and a spirit of good will what can be done to avert from the present generation such a catastrophe as we have witnessed in our lifetime. If no such settlement can be found, our only alternative is to be strong enough to face all eventualities, and a first condition of that is for us to be united. Therefore, when I studied a recent debate in another place, I could not help feeling a certain relief that the Session is now drawing to

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a close in spite of all the arguments which were advanced there for its prolongation, and that there will be for the present no more occasion for those attacks on the Government which are so eagerly misinterpreted abroad and which offer renewed opportunities to the vicious pens of the publicists of propaganda. To me, who for so long watched political developments at home from outside the country, it often appeared regrettable that criticism from the Opposition was apt to be most accentuated during anxious phases in foreign affairs, whereas valuable opportunities were missed of drawing attention to the designs of foreign Governments while to do so might have served a useful purpose.
Neither Governments nor Oppositions can, I think, escape responsibility for having over a long period ignored the premonitions of contemplated activities in other countries. In the reaction after the Great War we allowed ourselves to be directed by sentiment—the most dangerous of guides in international affairs—a sentiment which revealed itself in an initiative to give the world a lead in disarmament and culminated in a futile plebiscite, most welcomed abroad by those who anticipated that it might scare a democratic Government into quiescence. The result of our naive confidence in the compelling virtue of moral and ethical values, which are not elsewhere regarded as necessarily imposing restrictions on political ambitions, was not only to reduce the defensive potentiality of a vulnerable Empire, but also to weaken our influence in the councils of Europe. Now, however, after a long period of anxiety and even some dread, to which I may confess, of humiliation through prolonged inaction, which, by the way, those who contributed to make it inevitable were the first to denounce, I rejoice to feel that this people has realised that its voice must remain ineffectual if it is not backed by the certitude of strength.
The splendid spirit manifested in response to the call of duty has already, so far as I am able to diagnose feeling on the Continent, somewhat eased the situation. I would wish therefore to say here, in this last debate on foreign affairs, that I cannot sufficiently applaud the pronouncement made on June 29 by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and
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the policy of the Prime Minister who, having tried all that conciliation and patience could hope to achieve, has at a grave moment taken a firm and courageous stand. I trust and believe that he will have the unhesitating support of the whole nation in leading Great Britain to resume her tradition of upholding individual liberties and defending weaker peoples who have a legitimate right to exist and to develop on their own lines. Conscious of strength and ready to make every sacrifice to increase it, we may reaffirm the faith which I think has been so well expressed in two memorable lines of a famous English poetess:
"Happy are all free peoples, too strong to be dispossessed,
But blessed are those among nations who dare to be strong for the rest."
5.42 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, I wish to ask my noble friend the Foreign Secretary a point on machinery rather than on policy, but before doing so may I refer to a reference to some failure of Australia made by the noble Viscount opposite? I did not quite get the implication, but it seemed to me that the noble Viscount thought we had taken a certain line for the benefit of Australia that possibly was not advantageous to ourselves. I am not familiar with the particular incident to which the noble Viscount referred, but I think it ought to be remembered in that connection that Australia, for the benefit of British trade, did jeopardise her very important trade with Japan when Australia handicapped the Japanese from the point of view of importing into Australia their cotton and silk goods in order to benefit our manufacturers in this country.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: May I interrupt the noble Viscount? I did not for a moment intend to suggest that Australia had induced us to take a certain course for her benefit which was disadvantageous to ourselves. What I had in mind was that any British Foreign Minister has to take into account the interests of the British Empire as a whole in which Australia is one of the most important units, and that Australia has great commercial and strategic interests which are concerned in any relations between this Government and Japan. We have been obliged quite properly and necessarily to

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take that into account. I expressed the hope that Australia would realise that in the long run, even at some sacrifice of immediate interest, it may be necessary to take a stronger line than mere ease and economic advantage may require.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I am much obliged to my noble friend for enlightening me. I am sorry I did not quite get the gist of what he said at the time. I do not think he need have any fear on that subject for the reason I have given, that Australia has already shown an appreciation of the part she plays as a member of the Empire by running grave risks of losing one of her best customers—Japan is a very large buyer of Australia wool—by handicapping the Japanese in Australia for the benefit of the manufacturers of this country. I think, therefore, my noble friend may be quite sure on that point.
The point I wish to submit to my noble friend the Foreign Secretary is in connection with the overseas trade guarantee. I have already written and asked him and he is prepared to give the answer, I know. The point is this. I hoped that the Overseas Trade Guarantee Bill would supply a very important omission in the equipment of our Ministers and Ambassadors overseas as a result of which they have been handicapped in relation to other foreign Powers. As I read the Bill, it gives power to the Government to give guarantees in connection with any matter in connection with which it appears to them—that is to say, the Board of Trade and the Treasury—to be expedient in the national interests that guarantees should be given. What was not clear to me either from the debates in your Lordships' House or in another place, or from the Bill, is to what extent Ambassadors who see opportunities for advancing British interests in foreign countries can take advantage of these provisions, and what machinery there is for dealing with them. The importance of being able to meet our foreign rivals on equal ground is considerable, and we have always been handicapped because it has been the deliberate policy of other countries to back up and push their exporters and financiers with a view to getting concessions and so forth. That has not been our policy in the past. We have relied upon the efficiency and
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ingenuity of our manufacturers and financiers to obtain the necessary concessions.
In normal times I think that was a pity and a mistake, but these are anything but normal times, and we are handicapped certainly in two directions in dealing, for example, with the Axis Powers. You find the manufacturer, the financier, the exporter and the retailer all the same individual in the case of the Axis Powers—namely, the Government. You find also that they are manifestly short of cash, and their financial situation is one which we would not envy. But they are invariably able, because of that combination, to offer terms to foreign nations either for export or for work to be done with which the contractor or the manufacturer in this country cannot possibly compete, and the normal banker still less so, because, after all, he is trustee for his depositors and therefore is quite unable to give terms to the manufacturer which would enable him to compete satisfactorily with his foreign rivals. It is not merely from the point of view of the material benefit of providing work in this country, though that is obviously of first-class importance, but it is from the political point of view that it is important, it seems to me, that our diplomatic representatives abroad should have far greater facilities of getting the support of our national credit for enterprises in foreign countries than they have had hitherto. I have not been able to discover from the Bill that that is the case.
There is another reason, and I think a very important one, why that is desirable to-day. A great many of the countries abroad have frozen credits in the Axis countries, and it is quite conceivable that the only possibility of getting anything for those frozen credits is in the shape of exports or in work done. We have seen that ourselves with our ship-owners who, in order to recover some value for their credits from Germany, have had to take German ships. But it is very important, it seems to me, from the purely political standpoint, not merely at the moment when we want to strengthen the hands of our representatives as far as we possibly can, but from the point of view of establishing a position which will be favourable to us when the present difficulties have been overcome, as we hope they will be overcome. The Bill does appear to give the widest possible

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powers of guarantee for work to be done such as I have indicated, but I cannot see from the Bill or from the debates what is likely to happen when an Ambassador or a Minister sends to the Foreign Office a Despatch advocating the undertaking of certain work which, if we do not get it, will go to our rivals and will give them an advantage far beyond the material advantage of the contract. I think it is important, and I hope that my noble friend will be able to say that when proposals reach him from overseas, he will be able to deal expansively and generously with them, not primarily, or entirely by any means, from the intrinsic financial or economic point of view, but from the point of view of political advantage.
I cannot help feeling that the case is strengthened by the speech of my noble friend Viscount Cecil. He gave a list of some of the resolutions of the Council of the League of Nations which have had absolutely no effect at all. He might have extended the list. The noble Viscount expressed surprise that these resolutions have had no effect. It occurred to me that the short answer to the noble Viscount—although it is not one which I think my noble friend below me will give—is that "fine words butter no parsnips." If all that a British Ambassador has to support his policy is a resolution of the League of Nations it is not surprising that that policy is not received with enthusiasm and does not carry any weight at all. On the other hand there is another saying that "money talks." We happen to have more money than anybody else in Europe. We are getting rid of it as quickly as we can, it is true, but for the time being we are better off than other people. I hope my noble friend will be able to say that this Overseas Trade Guarantees Act—if it does what I hope it will do, it strikes me as one of the best things the Government have done—does in fact enable him to take advantage of openings and opportunities which will greatly advance our present and future fortunes of which, owing to the lack of some such measure in the past, he has been unable to take advantage.
5.53 p.m.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I have found myself in less
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disagreement with the speeches made today than I thought I should, but I noticed that those speakers who seemed to lay emphasis on the desire for force, action and boldness never reached that point in which they explained to us how, when and where that action is to be applied. Therefore they really resemble their predecessors in anxious times in the past who with a certain irresponsibility condemned the Governments of this country for not acting at any certain moment. I am glad to say that the contest is still in the diplomatic field, and long may it remain there. It is unfortunate that we are not strong in diplomacy. I am not talking of individuals, I mean nationally speaking. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me just in parenthesis to say how sorry I am—as I am sure the House is—at the death of a very distinguished diplomatist of ours, Lord Howard of Penrith, who was a notable example of very accomplished diplomacy and brought conciliation wherever he went. I mean that nationally speaking we are not strong.
When I read—and I am glad to say did not hear to-day—attacks on the Government because negotiations with Russia are going so slowly I must say I think that is most unfair. If we get an agreement with Russia within the next year or two that will be rapid. The Russians are extremely acute diplomatists. You have to get up very early to deal with them, and that is not our habit.
LORD STRABOLGI: You did not take long to get an agreement with them.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I had not only to get up early but I had to refuse to go to bed while I was negotiating the Russian Treaty of 1924. This quest for a formula which is going on both in the Far East and in Moscow is a most difficult business. I remember very well on one occasion being kept up all night with an objection to certain words that had been put in a certain clause. Two or three nights afterwards one of my colleagues discovered the word "notwithstanding," and we sailed on after that for several weeks. We are not very good at finding formulas. We are not very good at negotiation, and it is because of that that I have deplored all along the entanglements that we have let ourselves in for. I have been frightened lest some minor incident, some outbreak

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on a frontier, might lead us into the carrying out of certain obligations which necessitate force. I do not know if the noble Viscount, the Foreign Secretary, can say anything with regard to the frontier incident between Hungary and Rumania. We are bound to defend Rumania, but it is not necessary that Rumania should be in the right in a controversy with Hungary. That is the sort of entanglement in which it is inadvisable that we should be caught up, in what I have referred to as this diplomatic contest which is going on in so many parts of the world.
But if I want to stress one point it is a point which has not been dealt with by any previous speaker. It is the one I feel most about, and one that I think is after all perhaps the most important. That is the condition here at home of our own people and their prospects. How long is this terrible tension to last? It is no good the Government saying that it does not rest with them, that it rests with people abroad. That will not satisfy us. How long is this tension going to last? How long is this apprehension of a coming calamity going to spread over the people? We are told by people who have been travelling abroad in Italy and Germany, Switzerland and France that the peaceful countryside is really peaceful. Aeroplanes are not always passing overhead, people are not always talking of precautions against air raids, and there is a genuinely peaceful atmosphere. I do not think there is a peaceful corner in this country at the present time. Every village is being roused by bogus majors and middle-aged women until people are storing things. I believe the chief things they are storing are coal and beans. These people are genuinely anxious. All over the country aerodromes are destroying agricultural land, and everyone's conversation is of this, just as in London and the big cities the posters of the newspapers rouse people, even if they have had a decent night, to the prospects of a very bad evening.
How long are we going to be kept like this, and how long is our energy to be dissipated from the real objects we want to achieve? I came across this passage in a letter of Sir Walter Scott at the time that he and the country were preparing to defend these islands against the great dictator Bonaparte. It was in
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1804; he himself had joined the Edinburgh Light Infantry and he writes:
"The truth is that this country has for once experienced that the pressure of external danger may possibly produce internal unanimity; and so great is the present military zeal that I really wish our rulers would devise some way of calling it into action, were it not only on the economical principle of saving so much good courage from idle evaporation."
That is all I would ask the Government. I do not want them to obtrude a plan, but I want them to realise that this organisation that they have brought into being in so many directions ought to be utilised and not allowed to evaporate and be dissipated. Why not use this organisation, when better times come—as we all trust and hope they will—for national reconstruction, for real work that needs doing, for expenditure of money which is fruitful and not destructive as it is now? I think it is an urgent need. The organisation should be arranged; and the women should be in this thing. Give a young woman a uniform and she will do anything.
You have the organisation at hand; you have built huge barracks; you are spending a vast amount of money. You have your campaign of fitness, which apparently began when it was anticipated that most of us would shortly be corpses. But it is in peace-time, it is in ordinary times, that the population ought to be made fit. It is now that we ought to be building houses and destroying slums. There is plenty of work there for all the explosives, and we ought to be building up the nation's life. It would give a hopeful feeling if the Government would declare to the country: "Yes; for the time being we have to be sure that our country and our Empire are safe, and we believe that this is the best method of doing it; but, having enlisted the whole population for this work, we are not going to switch it off; we are going to ask the same people to help us in a far greater and more terrible war: the war against poverty, misery, crime and disease." I feel that we, in our position of strength to-day, ought to be able to give an example to the world instead of always waiting for someone else to start, or insisting that all nations must agree before disarmament can come.
I only make these suggestions because I believe that we have a leading position,

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and that if we could make our voices heard we could set an example. The voice of the Foreign Secretary and the voice of our Prime Minister are heard at the present time, not indulging in attack or diplomatic entanglement, but—I do not say that they overstress it, but too often the note is that other people ought to take an example from us. I want us to be busy setting the example that other people are to take. Being the largest country, the richest country and the biggest Empire that has been known is not an example that we can ask other people to take, because it is merely a challenge which rouses their jealously. No, it is in the heart of the Empire that we can make our real contribution to civilisation and ask nations to follow our example.
6.5 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON: My Lords, the Far East has been mentioned in this debate by Lord Cecil and others, so I should just like to read to the House two messages that have been sent to an assembly that is now being held on the West Coast of the United States of America. One is from Generalissimo and Madame Chiang Kai-shek, and is as follows:
"We respond whole-heartedly to your stirring call. Accept this expression of our unqualified support. Moral rearmament may, we believe, eventually override the influence of power politics by harnessing the innate goodness and good will of every nation and thinking individual."
The other is from Baron Hiranuma, the Premier of Japan, and runs:
"The hope of civilisation lies in the moral and spiritual forces of mankind. I pray for the success of your second World Congress, and hope that the moral rearmament of the nations will bring international peace at this important period of world history."
At that assembly leading Chinese and Japanese spoke as friends from the same platform, and have broadcast to their own countries advocating these same fundamental principles of morality and faith. I have felt that these are facts that should be known as showing that there is a common ground on which these two nations can meet, and that this does give a hope for the just and equitable settlement to which Lord Cecil has referred.
6.7 p.m.
THE EARL OF DARNLEY: My Lords, the foreign policy of this country in
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Europe, as I have gathered from the remarks of most of the noble speakers preceding me, and as I may perhaps have permission to anticipate from the speech of the noble Viscount the Foreign Secretary, to whom I apologise for delaying him for yet another three minutes, is still firmly fixed as a counter-threat to which millions of lives are pledged as a support. This is not a very cheerful holiday story, and perhaps it is useless to deplore it to-day in your Lordships' House against such a unanimous agreement as is going to be voiced after the noble Viscount's coming speech. But, like my noble friend Lord Ponsonby, I should like to ask him, now that the country is going away on holiday, what hope he can give to it that this impasse is not going to be permanent, and what the Government are expecting to happen to make their policy an ultimate peace policy. According to the excitement shown in another place at Parliament's length of holiday, it would not appear that any great peace of mind, which is so necessary to holidays, is expected to last very long. I think your Lordships, like everyone else, would like to know more particularly how the policy's name of "Peace Front" is likely to be justified in fact.
I presume it is not thought that Herr Hitler is likely to express a desire to turn over a new leaf; because I believe, and most people believe, that his policy is as firmly fixed as this country's is and he is no more likely to yield to threats, propaganda and other such armaments than we are. I am very grateful in this connection to the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, for his story about the savage dog. He said, quite rightly, that if you show any fear of a savage dog it will turn and bite you, but if you go up to it boldly it will not do so. But he and all the rest of your Lordships know full well the effect of putting a dog on a chain, or, if you will not accept that, of making the dog think he has been put on a chain. If this is the case, how is this Government's policy going to be a method of producing a settlement which can be lasting and likely to lead to the good feeling which is essential to real peace? I should like to ask the noble Viscount that question. He already knows that every soul in this country and in Europe is praying that the day may soon come when the method of settling international questions by negotiation may be supported by all the

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different churches, different countries and Governments, and in the international Press, as being not only the right way but the most sensible and successful way of defending the people whose lives are in their charge. Is it not possible to hasten its arrival, and would not the heartfelt joy and approval with which it would be greeted put into complete shade any gratification which may be felt in such times as these?
6.11 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, the noble Lord who introduced this debate began by an observation which I think was an extremely fitting observation to make, and on which I also have something to say. Before doing that, however, I would like to associate myself with what fell from Lord Ponsonby in regard to what he said about Lord Howard of Penrith. I had it also in my mind to give expression to what, it was evident from the reception given to Lord Ponsonby's words, was the general feeling of all those in your Lordships' House at the death of Lord Howard, who was so well known to so many of us and who in so many fields had given such notable service to this country.
The noble Lord, Lord Snell, began on the text of his Motion which is one to "call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the present position of foreign affairs," and the comment that I made to myself when I first read that Motion on the Paper was one of subdued gratitude to the noble Lord for being so good as to remind me and His Majesty's Government that foreign affairs existed. I can assure him that they are very seldom out of our thoughts, and indeed I think there are very few people out of whose thoughts they ever are; but whatever the label of words under which we initiate discussions, I do most emphatically agree with the noble Lord, and this was the observation I had in mind, when he emphasized the great responsibility that attaches not only to Governments but also to Parliament on matters which, as Lord Ponsonby reminded us, so much affect the fortunes of every single citizen in the country. Therefore, although, if I had not been in this House, I might well have employed my time elsewhere, I make no complaint of the singularly sparing opportunities
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which are taken to elicit the opinion of your Lordships on these grave affairs.
I do, however, take some exception to the suggestion of the noble Lord who moved, that all he gets from this Bench was, I think in his own very carefully chosen language, "a dribble of somewhat reluctant information." I would ask the noble Lord to believe that we are always ready from this Bench, and I certainly do my best, to give to him and to the House all the information at my disposal that I think can usefully, without prejudice to the public interest, be given. That, I know, the noble Lord recognises very well. It is not without significance that both in this House and in the other place there have been during recent months strikingly fewer debates upon foreign affairs than was the case some months ago, and I think perhaps one may read in that a not insignificant expression of a very substantially broader national unity behind the policy of the Government, and also of confidence that the Government intend to abide by the several declarations that they have given, whatever their critics may suggest. It may be that a different suggestion may be made in other quarters, but it certainly is not a suggestion of which it is possible to find a serious echo in this House, or even outside.
A good many things have been said this afternoon that would tempt me into the field of controversy, but were I to yield to that temptation I am afraid I might very well say many things which would be no more helpful than some of the things which fell from my noble friend Lord Cecil, and, if I may put him alongside Lord Cecil, the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I was very much impressed by that proverb or quotation quoted by Lord Samuel, and as I heard it I made the reflection that it would be an admirable proverb for the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, to commit to memory and recite daily to one another.
I begin with the Far East, on which the principal part of the attention in this debate has been concentrated, and it has, been suggested in several speeches in various parts of the House that the formula recently signed with the Government

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of Japan commits this country to a fundamental change of policy; that we have by signing that formula recognised a state of belligerency in China; that it is in spirit contrary to our obligations under the League resolutions; that it is in danger of violating the Nine-Power Treaty; and generally, that it condones action which we have previously condemned. I think that is a fair summary of the kind of charges that have been floating about with regard to that formula this afternoon. I wish to state quite plainly that in my judgment those who take that sort of line ignore both the plain terms of the formula and the interpretation of the formula that His Majesty's Government have themselves placed upon it.
I know, of course, from such experience as I have had in India, how extremely difficult it is for people sitting in London to appreciate on one side or another the precise implications in the East of any of those carefully phrased formulas. I also know that, that being the case, there can hardly be any ground more fertile in which the enemy can sow tares among the wheat; and those who make that kind of loose accusation arising out of the formula lose sight, I think, of one fact that is of great importance, and it is this. The impression that the kind of accusation that I have listened to this afternoon produces is exactly the impression that those wish to see produced who are most anxious to exacerbate any difficulty by which we may be confronted at the present time, and accordingly, in my view, we should be very careful indeed not to play their game.
I would ask that we might all bear in mind certain governing considerations which have, I think, all of them, been already quite explicitly stated by those who have spoken for His Majesty's Government. I do not think that any useful purpose is served by proceeding on the lines of creating the maximum measure of doubt, if I may put it so, upon the minimum basis of fact. Only suspicion and mistrust are sown by that method, and, as I have sought to say, that merely serves the ends of those who are least friendly to this country. The general considerations that I would therefore plead might be kept in mind are these. The Japanese Government have
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never asked His Majesty's Government to reverse their general policy, nor, let me add, could His Majesty's Government do so if they were asked. I can assure my noble friend Lord Cecil, who reminded me of the many obligations under which this country lay, that I am not unmindful of any of them, whether the Nine-Power Treaty or the League resolutions, and that there is no intention in the mind of His Majesty's Government either of disregarding British interests in China or of disregarding our obligations to third Powers. All that we have done by this formula is to state the facts, as they seem to us to exist, and to attempt in practical fashion to deal with the background against which the situation in Tientsin has actually arisen. It will be difficult enough to reach agreement on the Tientsin issues without placing misconstruction on the formula, and we must, I suggest, be on our guard that we do not unnecessarily complicate the task of our Ambassador at Tokyo, who is handling a very delicate situation with both firmness and understanding, in the efforts that he is making to reach a solution.
Therefore, while nothing that we have done, and I hope nothing that we shall do, can on any reasonable construction be taken as condoning action bearing the character of aggression, and though our policy is most certainly, as my noble friend Lord Cecil I think asked, designed to promote peace and international order, it none the less does seem to me that the purpose towards which we have to bend our efforts in the Far East, from the widest point of view, is to endeavour to do two things: first of all, if we can, to assist in the finding of a settlement that will be fair as between all the interests concerned; and, secondly, from the more narrow point of view of the interests of this country, to work for such an issue of the present difficulties as will not impair our relations with China or with Japan if that can be avoided. I am perfectly well aware that many of your Lordships will think that that is much too optimistic a hope, that we are dealing with irreconcilables, and that any such effort is from the beginning either unjustifiable or foredoomed to failure. I certainly do not conceal from myself that the question of whether or not we can succeed in attaining any such object as

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that is not one that depends only on ourselves. It depends, firstly, on the attitude and on the purpose of the Japanese Government, and on how far the Japanese authorities in China are prepared to regard themselves as bound by the distinction between local and general issues recognised by their Government, and how far they are prepared to refrain from attempts to represent general as local issues and vice versa.
The noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, and my noble friend Lord Elibank referred to an interview reported in the Press as having been given by the Japanese Prime Minister a day or two after the formula was announced. In regard to that I have only to say this. I was informed by the Ambassador that that interview was incorrectly reported, but I would also add that if it was correctly reported His Majesty's Government certainly could not accept its implications. More particularly, His Majesty's Government are bound to take a very grave view of the blockade at Tientsin and the increasing agitation against British interests in those parts of occupied China and in Japan. I think the Japanese Government and people must recognise that if this agitation continues no negotiations or discussions could prevent relations between our two countries from growing steadily more difficult, with all the consequences that that deterioration must inevitably bring. Moreover, it is worth remembering that the Japanese Government, under the terms of the formula, have made themselves responsible for the maintenance of public order in the Japanese controlled areas of China, and His Majesty's Government accordingly will expect them, in implementation of the formula, to put down agitation and check anti-British propaganda in these areas. So much for the degree to which the hope I expressed depends on the co-operation of Japan.
In the second place we obviously have to remember that some of the issues raised, although they may be local in origin, also have a significance much more wide and have a direct interest for other Governments besides ourselves. Reference has already been made in this debate to the common interest we share in several of these matters with the United States and, though I am not sure it has been mentioned, with France. I would only
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like in that regard to say this. The general aims and objects of our three Governments are closely similar, and His Majesty's Government, I can assure the noble Lord who introduced the Motion and my noble friend behind me who also referred to it, are acutely alive to the importance of collaboration with these Governments wherever collaboration is possible. I can assure your Lordships that we have never failed to keep these Governments closely informed both of our intentions and of our actions. But the noble Lord will recognise that that is not to say that we must all necessarily do the same thing in the same way at the same time. The recent denunciation of the Commercial Treaty by the United States Government, to which reference has been made, is a case in point. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, addressed sonic of his remarks rather precisely to this point. I can very well conceive circumstances in which His Majesty's Government also might wish to give notice of their intention to denounce their Commercial Treaty but, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said on Monday in another place, that is a matter which would require most careful consideration, and in regard to which close exchange of view with His Majesty's Dominions would anyhow be necessary. I would not wish at this stage to say more in regard to that subject than I have already said.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned—I was called out of the House for a moment so I am not sure he mentioned, but he told me he was going to mention—the question of the degree to which His Majesty's Government have been actuated by a desire to cling to ancient privileges which he was disposed to feel were now out of date. He will not have overlooked, I am sure, the passage in the Note we addressed to the Japanese Government earlier in the year in which we reminded them that, as long ago as 1931, we had nearly completed negotiations with the Chinese Government upon the subject of extra-territoriality. These negotiations, as he knows, were suspended following the seizure of Manchuria by the Japanese, but the Note went on to say:
"His Majesty's Government have always been ready to resume negotiations at a suitable time and are prepared to discuss this

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and other similar questions with a fully independent Chinese Government when peace has been restored."
It is not therefore with a view to preserving unchanged the entire structure of what one might call the old treaty days that His Majesty's Government have shaped their policy and, as we have also more than once made clear to the Japanese Government, while we have never concealed our view about Japanese action in China, and while we are bound to have regard to all the interests involved, particularly those of China, we have also been fully prepared to recognise the special interests and position that Japan, in virtue of geography and economic needs, is entitled to claim and to exercise.
My noble friend Lord Elibank put to me a number of questions regarding the Chinese currency and the disposal of the silver stocks at Tientsin and Peking. All I can usefully say on that subject to-day is that various solutions of these problems have been suggested, but none of them, as far as I have been able to form an opinion, appears to be satisfactory. His Majesty's Government are naturally continuing to examine all the possibilities, but I can assure your Lordships that in considering these matters we shall certainly not lose sight of our obligations either towards the Chinese Government or towards the other signatories of the Nine-Power Treaty. As regards the extension of further support by this country to the Chinese currency, your Lordships will, I have no doubt, recognise that any such proposal, whatever it might or might not be held desirable to do from the point of view of China, would fall also to be considered in the light of very many other financial considerations and obligations incumbent on this country at the present time. I cannot therefore say more on that subject at the present time.
LORD STRABOLGI: Will the noble Viscount allow me? Did not the noble Viscount put that the wrong way round? The Foreign Secretary said it was a question of further supporting the currency. Should he not have said the question of not further supporting?
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: It is always open to state every proposition either positively or negatively, and the sense is not greatly different whichever way it is
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stated. My proposition is incapable of challenge. I thought it was indeed such a platitude that I hesitated to lay it before the House. All I ventured to say was that in any suggestion of giving financial help to Chinese currency there were also important financial considerations from the point of view of this country to be borne in mind. I am quite sure the noble Lord, on reflection, would feel that that is an observation hardly capable of contradiction.
The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, asked me a question in regard to Colonel Spear. I must admit that the position in regard to Colonel Spear is most unsatisfactory and emphasizes—although it was not in this connection that the noble Viscount uttered his opinion—the wisdom of his counsel when he seeks to discourage any of your Lordships from adopting the cloak of prophet. The position in regard to Colonel Spear is this. His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo has made repeated representations to the Japanese Government on that matter, and these have been met with the reply that the investigation of Colonel Spear's case is almost complete. Within the last few days the Japanese Government have held out the hope to the Ambassador that a settlement of Colonel Spear's case might be expected in the very near future. No explanation has been given of Colonel Spear's long detention, but the Japanese Government, I need hardly say, have been left in no doubt as to the feelings of His Majesty's Government in regard to it. There is one small point that is perhaps worth mentioning incidentally, and it is this. There is, in fact, no question of Colonel Spear being covered by diplomatic immunity except in relation to Chinese Courts.
I pass from that and I conclude what I have sought to say by this observation, that I cannot myself resist the conclusion that on the widest view and the longest view of our present difficulties in the Far East His Majesty's Government would feel that it was the duty of responsible persons everywhere to look ahead and to try to keep clearly in front of them the real goal in the Far East. I suggest that that goal must not be, as I think Lord Cecil's argument seemed to suggest, the adoption of a course which would be likely to have consequences very much wider and a good deal more dangerous than he appreciates, but, as the Prime

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Minister said the other day and as my noble friend Lord Addington again reminded us to-day, to try and bring about a just and equitable settlement of the present dispute. The noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, I think, said that it was impossible for this country to act as policeman in the Far East, but the time might come when they should go perhaps as mediators, and I certainly hope that His Majesty's Government may, as they will certainly be ready some day to do, offer their good offices, if and when those good offices can usefully be employed. I do not believe that it is beyond the power of men of good will to find the solution which will both do justice to China and take due account of the interests of other Powers that are concerned in the Far East.
Now I must just say something about Russia. His Majesty's Government have, I suppose, taken the lead in endeavouring to organise a combination of resistance against aggression, and the fact that the principal portion of blame for every difficulty or delay falls on them shows indeed that their leading role is generally acknowledged. If the world were just, His Majesty's Government would receive, of course, the lion's share of credit for whatever has been achieved, but as the world, or the people in it, is or are not always just, His Majesty's Government make no complaint at all of shouldering the greater part of the blame for real or imaginary failures. The basis of British policy has been, as your Lordships are aware, close co-operation with France in defence of interests that are common, as was explicitly laid down in the declaration made so long ago as the beginning of February by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. It was starting from that point that His Majesty's Government offered their guarantee to Poland and Rumania, and undoubtedly by doing that they made a substantial contribution to the security of Russia and it was in view of the fact that they felt obliged at that time to act promptly, with, I think I can say, the approval of the overwhelming mass of opinion in this country—not in the presence of Lord Ponsonby clearly unanimous, but I think the overwhelming mass of opinion—that they did not make their action dependent on receiving any counterpart then and there from the Soviet Government.
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The present negotiations with Russia have, as we all know, as their object the strengthening of the forces against possible aggression, and noble Lords will no doubt realise that to provide an instrument which will cover every possible contingency is a very complicated task which must inevitably give rise to certain divergencies of view. Moreover, as we also know very well, the problem is further complicated by the necessity of trying to provide for the new technique of indirect aggression. His Majesty's Government and the French Government and the Soviet Government are in full agreement on the necessity of trying to make such provision, but the differences which have arisen relate to the precise form in which this elusive shadow of indirect aggression can be brought to definition. Our common object is to find a formula which may cover what may rightly be regarded as indirect aggression without in any way encroaching on the independence and the neutrality of other States, and it is no secret that the proposals that the British and French Governments have made have appeared to the Soviet Government insufficiently comprehensive, whilst the formula favoured by the Soviet Government has seemed to His Majesty's Government and the French Government to go too far in the other direction. The delays—and I confess, although I am naturally restrained in judgment, I am not so pessimistic as Lord Ponsonby who talks in terms of years—which have occurred have not only risen from the complexity of the problem in hand which affects the rights and interests of a very large number of States.
I rather doubt whether even noble Lords, and I am quite sure still more of the general public outside, fully realise all that is involved in negotiations of this character. It is quite true that an interim agreement such as those made with Poland and with Turkey can be concluded relatively quickly; in the case of both these countries, the formal agreements are still under discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked me whether our agreement with Poland included a definition of indirect aggression and, if it did, why it was not possible to transplant that definition into the Russian Agreement. Well, the answer is that the formal agreement with Poland is still being agreed, it is still not concluded, and

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the arrangement on which we have been working and are working with Poland does not, I think, refer to indirect aggression in the form that he has in his mind, and for the simple reason that will be at once apparent to the noble Lord if he casts his mind back, that our guarantee to Poland rested upon a perfectly simple, precise, but rather different basis. Our guarantee to Poland, he will remember, was made operative in the event of Polish independence being clearly threatened and the Polish Government feeling it necessary to resist and so on. However, that is rather by way of parenthesis.
The Soviet Government, in contradistinction from what we were able to do with Turkey and Poland, preferred to proceed without any intermediate stage to the conclusion of a formal agreement, and the terms of that formal agreement naturally have required careful consideration. It was inevitable that there was a great deal of discussion to be done on the drafting and so on. I was very glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Davies, acknowledge, as he very fairly did, that the fact that we had to agree any modifications and alterations with the French Government necessarily and inevitably involved a certain measure of additional time expenditure. It has been assumed in some quarters, and I rather think that Lord Davies assumed it to-day—attributing, indeed, I think, to me a certain role that seemed to him appropriate—that had His Majesty's Government been represented by a Cabinet Minister instead of an Ambassador a quick agreement would have been secured. Well, I do not really know what warrant he can certainly feel to have for any such surmise, and I do not think experience supports him. He will remember, as I remember, the Washington Naval Conference, for example, in 1921, when His Majesty's Government was represented by a most distinguished Minister, the late Lord Balfour. Although the ground for that Conference had been prepared with the utmost diligence through diplomatic channels it took no less than three months there to secure agreement. In the present case I understand M. Molotov is obliged at every stage to consult his Government, and the same would have applied to any British representative, whether in the Cabinet or
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out of the Cabinet, who had been on our behalf conducting the negotiations for His Majesty's Government in Moscow.
LORD DAVIES: I apologise for interrupting the noble Viscount, but may I point out that at Washington several nations were represented by delegations, whilst the present discussions in Moscow are bilateral, only two countries being involved?
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: Yes I appreciate the noble Lord's point, but he perhaps will not overlook the fact that if you have the interests of several nations to consider, it may be easier if you have in one place the representatives of all these nations, than if the representatives of two or three nations have to consider the interests of many countries not represented, which has been our case in these negotiations. Leaving that aside, the fact that His Majesty's Government and the French Government have decided to despatch Military Missions to Moscow—I think they leave, if I am rightly informed, the day after to-morrow—before full agreement has been reached on the political issues may be held, I hope, to be the best evidence of the bona fides and determination of His Majesty's Government, and concrete evidence not only of our interest to bring these negotiations to an early and successful conclusion but of our belief that that step will facilitate outstanding discussions on political issues which will proceed simultaneously with the military discussions.
I had on my notes something to say in regard to the Turkish negotiations, but I do not think that I need detain your Lordships beyond saying, as your Lordships would indeed anticipate, that they are, I think, proceeding satisfactorily and smoothly and that the understanding between our two Governments is very cordial and complete. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, asked me if I had anything to say about the frontier incident reported in the Press yesterday between Hungary and Rumania. I have not had any direct official information in regard to it, but I had the opportunity this morning of seeing the Rumanian Minister, who told me that he hoped and thought that no particular significance was to be attached to it, especially having regard to the fact that the Hungarian Government had themselves immediately suggested that it should be referred to a

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Joint Commission of Inquiry representing these two countries.
Now I must just say a word or two in regard to another subject on which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and I think others have asked me a question. That is Danzig. But I do not know, with your Lordships' permission, that I want to say very much. Your Lordships will recollect that the Prime Minister in another place on July 10 last set out the attitude of His Majesty's Government in a statement which, in some quarters there may be surprise to learn, I had some hand in drafting. I do not want to quote parts of that statement because it was a balanced whole, and still less would I wish to quote it all to your Lordships, but I would only say this in regard to it. Its terms were I think clear, they were precise, and they were certainly carefully weighed, and I do not wish to say to-day anything in any way to weaken whatever may be held to be their effect or their value. But I would say one word in reply to a particular point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies. He spoke about the possibilities of an international force in Danzig. Those of us who are familiar with the contributions that the noble Lord from time to time makes in your Lordships' House were not surprised to find that he had adjusted his remedy of universal application to that which is for the moment of particular interest in all our minds. The fact that I do not think, as I do not think, that the installation of an international force in Danzig at this moment would be a practical and useful step in all the circumstances, does not mean that His Majesty's Government are not watching the situation most closely or that they are not fully alive to the possible repercussions or developments in that quarter upon the future of European peace.
May I say before I leave that part of the world a few words in regard to Poland and more particularly the Anglo-Polish financial negotiations to which reference has been made? As your Lordships know, discussions with the Polish delegation have covered two separate matters. The first relates to export credits, and I am glad to say, as your Lordships may have noticed in the Press, that an agreement was signed yesterday for the guarantee of export credits to Poland up to an amount of rather over £8,000,000
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in order to facilitate the purchase in this country by the Polish Government of material necessary for their defence. Discussions have also been taking place on the possibility of a cash loan to Poland by His Majesty's Government and the French Government acting jointly, and along with all members of your Lordships' House I greatly regret that it was not found possible to reach agreement as to the conditions on which such a loan might be made available in time for Parliament to be asked to pass the necessary legislation before we rise. The difficulties that were in the way were, as has been stated in another place, technical difficulties, and it would not I think be in the public interest to discuss them, but I may add just this, that the difficulties that arose were not difficulties in connection with the purchase of arms by Poland in countries other than the United Kingdom. There has been some misconception on that point, and I think it is worth making that plain. I would also add that these difficulties have in no degree—I think I can safely say this—impaired the relations of complete confidence that exist between the Governments of the two countries.
My noble friend Viscount Stonehaven raised the question of the Overseas Trade Guarantees Act. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say a few words about that, because, although it is rather different in character to the questions that are in our minds, it is a question of great importance. Your Lordships are aware that the granting of credits for the furtherance of export trade and with the object of guaranteeing traders and bankers against loss due to insolvency has been the practice of His Majesty's Government since, I think, very soon after the War, and in 1926 the Export Credits Guarantee Department came into being. Until quite recently that Department was only concerned with granting credits which were held to be justified on purely economic grounds. The Department itself is run on commercial lines and its transactions are approved by an Advisory Committee of business men, industrialists and so on. So far as purely commercial credits are concerned there is no question, therefore, of the Department being out of touch with the interests of United Kingdom trade.

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The new Overseas Trade Guarantees Act, however, moves on rather different lines and constitutes an extension of the principle which underlay the previous activities of the Export Credits Guarantee Department. Under the new arrangement we are enabled to grant credits as a result of which our friends or our allies can purchase armaments, and it authorises the grant of credits which, if purely commercial considerations were taken into account, would not in view of the risks involved be entirely justified. It is therefore clear that the facilities which are available to be granted under the new Act are not of a sort which require the control of business men, and that those countries which desire to profit by them have, as His Majesty's Government indeed have every cause to know, no difficulty either in making their requests known or in taking advantage of the opportunities open to them.
Perhaps I might conclude what I have to say with a very few general observations. As I reflected during the most thoughtful and helpful speech of my noble friend Lord Rennell, the task of statesmen to-day is made doubly difficult very often by those official propagandists and unofficial journalists and writers who deliberately invent, exaggerate or distort events and their implications. I do not believe that one can attach too great an importance to the damage that is in that way day after day being done. I have recently noticed, if I may take a single example that perhaps comes home to a good many of us in a rather particular way, most offensive aspersions made in the German and Italian press against the conduct of British troops in Palestine. All those who fought in the Great War—anyhow those on the British side, I think—look back with feelings of respect for the courage displayed in that War, whether by their then German foes or their then Italian allies. I am equally sure that similar feelings are felt for British troops by those who fought with them or against them during those same days. I am quite sure that it must be repulsive to the feelings of the best elements in every country when attempts are made to obliterate those mutual feelings of respect by insinuations that are quite unworthy of those honourable memories. That is only an example, but the observation which I
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made is, I think, one deserving of general application.
As we rise for our Recess, much as I should like to do so I cannot encourage anyone to feel complacent about the situation in which the world finds itself. With all respect to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, I do not think that anxiety is only confined to the people of this country. It is felt by the people, I think, in all countries. Therefore we cannot be complacent, for that would not be, as I see it, in accordance with the facts and the possibilities as we believe them to exist to-day. Indeed, it may well be that the next weeks or months may prove critical. The policy of His Majesty's Government is, I hope, sufficiently clear and so generally accepted that I need not recapitulate it. I myself tried to define it in the speech to which the noble Lord opposite was kind enough to refer, which I made something over a month ago. To that speech I have nothing to add, and from that speech I have certainly nothing to withdraw. Only those for whom, as for the Bellman in The Hunting of the Snark, the degree of truth is directly dependent upon verbal repetition, would think any useful purpose was served by my saying it again. I venture to think that misunderstandings are more often the child of speech than of silence. Accordingly, while saying that, I would add this. We have tried to make the position of this country crystal-clear. We have no aggressive designs; our alliances and understandings have not been framed with any aggressive intent. We have, however, sought to define the double purpose of British policy as regards, on the one hand, our attitude towards aggression by others, and on the other our willingness, if force and threat of force were abandoned, to join, as the noble Earl, Lord Darnley, suggested at the end of our debate, in the constructive establishment of a peaceful order.
There can, I think, be no mistake now as to where this country stands. We have taken our own precautions, and we have done everything possible, by organising the forces of peace, to strengthen the deterrents to war. It only remains for us—and this would be my special request as this House approaches the time of its rising—to keep calm and, so far as we may, to keep united, to avoid exaggerated attention to rumour and to be neither

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over-confident nor over-pessimistic. For I suggest that a united nation which both knows exactly where it stands and knows itself to be strong can meet the future, whatever it may hold, with confidence.
7.9 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I desire to thank the noble Viscount for the great courtesy of his reply and for such information as he has been able to give to us. As I listened to his speech, the noble Viscount did not seem to be quite so firm on the matter of Chinese currency as the Chancellor was in another place recently. That may be a misapprehension, but in any case we thank him for his courtesy, and I beg leave to withdraw the Motion which stands in my name.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I only desire to make this one observation on what has just fallen from the Foreign Secretary. I do not see why aggression in the Far East is different from aggression in Europe. I beg leave to withdraw.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  HORSE TRAFFIC IN LONDON.
  HORSE TRAFFIC IN LONDON.