Sitting of 28 April 1939

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

NEW WRITS.
For the Borough of Birmingham (Aston Division), in the room of Captain the Honourable Arthur Oswald James Hope, M.C. (Chiltern Hundreds).
For the County of Down, in the room of Sir David Douglas Reid, Baronet, deceased.—[Captain Margesson.]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
South Shields Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order Bill.
Read the Third time, and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  OFFICIAL REPORT (DIVISION NO. 84, CORRECTION).
  Mr. Snadden: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw your attention to the fact that whereas I voted in the Aye Lobby in the first Division last night, my name appears as having voted in both Lobbies? If this appears in the official list, may I ask that a correction be made?
  Mr. Speaker: I can inform the hon. Member that the necessary correction is being made.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CHARITIES (FUEL ALLOTMENTS) BILL.
  As amended (in the Standing Committee),considered.
  11.8 a.m.
  Colonel Clarke: I beg to move "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  When moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I said that I thought it was a small and unambitious one. To-day, in the shadow of the weighty events that have occupied the House during the last few weeks, I feel that the Bill is even smaller. At the same time, I believe that it would be wrong, and would be pandering to the dictators, if even such a small Measure of social improvement as this were to be allowed to be postponed in its action, particularly as it applies to our country villages which have not yet fully shared in the advance of amenities which the remainder of the country has seen during the last few decades.
  I wish to express my thanks to those hon. Members who have helped me by giving their advice and criticism, and to the Law Officers of the Crown and the officials of the Ministry of Agriculture for the help and time which they have given to the Bill. It was launched on what was a rather stormy afternoon, but the weather improved in Committee, and I hope it will remain fair this morning. I wish particularly to thank Sir Laurence Chubb, of the Commons, Footpaths and Open Spaces Society, and the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), who is a member of the executive committee of that Society and represents it in this House. As a member of the Society myself, I was particularly anxious not to do anything that might clash with the provisions of the Town Planning Act, and on their advice, I moved certain Amendments in Committee, which were accepted. I am glad to understand from the hon. Member for South Shields that the Society are now fully satisfied with the Bill. Finally, I should like to express the hope that, if the Bill is passed, those responsible for fuel allotments will hasten to make use of it and remove those anomalies which at present prevent the working of the original plans of the promoters in the way in which they wished them to be worked.
  11.11 a.m.
  Mr. Ede: I wish to thank the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Col. Clarke) for the references he has made to the Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society and to express the thanks of that Society and myself for the way in which the hon. and gallant Member met the very important point that we felt bound to raise when the Bill was in Committee. I believe the Bill is now one to which no exception can be taken and that it will enable these charities to be administered in a way that will be most useful to the beneficiaries who are entitled to such income as is derived from them. I join with the hon. and gallant Member in the hope that it may be used as a means of bringing some of the charities thoroughly up to date in their administration, but I sincerely hope that it will not be used unnecessarily for the development of land for which there is no claim to development.
  11.12 a.m.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: I should like to say just a few words with regard to what has been described as a small and unambitious Bill. I am sure that I shall carry all my hon. Friends on these Benches with me in what I have to say. I do not want to dwell upon the merits of the Bill, but I wish that somebody would tell us how on earth it comes about that the word "fuel" is used to describe a patch of land. I always thought that the word "fuel" meant something that could be burned. Now I understand that a fuel allotment means land. [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes."] To me English was once a foreign tongue, and consequently, I am at a loss to understand this.
  There is, however, one serious question that I want to ask in connection with the Bill. I have in mind the township of Aspull with about 6,000 inhabitants in my Division, and in the centre and scattered over the town there are about 70 acres of land that do not seem to belong to anybody in particular. The strange thing is that some of that land, if it could be bought and used, would be the most suitable spot in the place on which the local authority could build houses for the people. Would the Attorney-General be good enough to tell us whether there is anything in this Bill which would cover a case such as that? Personally, I doubt

  1471
  whether there is. As the land does not seem to belong to anybody, they cannot do anything with it. The old idea prevails, and is understood by everybody, that nobody dare touch the land, that it is there for common use and that nothing can be done to enclose or use it in any way for any purpose. There is in that small township, therefore, the anomaly that the whole community would like the land to be used for the purpose of house-building by the local authority and nothing can be done. I am hoping that the time will come, if such a case is not covered by this Bill, when that problem will be dealt with. There are probably patches of land of this sort all over the country that ought to be put to some use. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman when he replies, will give us a little enlightenment as to the position of pieces of land of that kind.
  11.15 a.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): I wish to thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) for his tribute to myself and my colleagues. The hon. and gallant Member for Wycombe (Sir A. Knox) was the first person who drew my attention to this problem on the Second Reading, and I think he assumed that I had taken less interest in it than I had in fact taken, but I make no complaint about that. Although it is a small problem, it turned out to be a rather intricate one and it was difficult to discover exactly how to deal with it, without doing more or doing less than was necessary. I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend who has carried through this Bill on his willingness to tackle this small but intricate problem and the way in which he conducted negotiations to meet those who, at an early stage, had some apprehensions as to the scope and effect of the Bill.
  The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) asked me what fuel had to do with land. He, no doubt, thinks of fuel only in the generally accepted sense, and I quite agree that one must make allowances for his linguistic disabilities—though they are not, perhaps, always apparent. But this use of the word dates from the time when a great deal of the fuel which was burned was either turf dug from the land, or scrub, gorse-bush and brushwood used either for
  1472
  kindling or for ordinary fuel purposes. Thus when the Enclosure Acts were passed and land was enclosed, from which persons prior to enclosure could get peat, fuel or brushwood, allotments were made and these were called "fuel allotments", because they were regarded as being in substitution of that right. In some cases the allotment was of land from which fuel could actually be obtained in the form of peat or brushwood. In other cases, the allotment was of land which, I think, it was intended to let so that the money thus obtained could be used for the purchase of fuel to be distributed in substitution for the earlier right.
  In regard to the hon. Gentleman's second point, in order to give a complete answer to him I should require what the lawyers call "further and better particulars." The 70 acres of land to which he refers and which, he says, appear to belong to no one, may be common land and may be subject and, in fact, would be subject to restrictions either by manorial right or by immemorial right, and, therefore, could not be built on without a private Act of Parliament. But one could not give a categorical answer with regard to any particular piece of land which is sterilised from building for one reason or another, without having the necessary particulars, and if the hon. Member cares to send me further details I shall do my best to tell him what the exact position is with regard to the piece of land which he has in mind.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has already given the answer by saying that it would require special legislation or something of the kind.
  The Attorney-General: If the hon. Gentleman wants some sweeping enactment by which common land can be built on, it would, I can assure him, disturb that unanimity which, he claims, exists to-day among those on the Benches opposite. That really raises a larger question than any which are dealt with by this Bill. I believe that the Bill will achieve a small but useful change affecting a number of charities, particularly in the rural areas.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  ADOPTION OF CHILDREN (REGULATION) BILL.
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  ADOPTION OF CHILDREN (REGULATION) BILL.

    CLAUSE IV.—(Regulations.)
    11.20.a.m.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I beg to move, in page 4, line 37, after "order," to insert:
    "and to the provisions of this Act relating to the transfer of the care and possession of children to persons resident abroad."
    This Clause refers to regulations to be laid down by the Secretary of State in regard to the conduct of the work of adoption societies. One of the matters to be provided for in the regulations is that a memorandum should be handed to the mother or whoever brings the child for adoption, stating exactly and in clear terms what rights are being given up, if the child is adopted. As the Bill stands, reference in this connection is made only to cases in which an order for adoption is made in court. The Bill has been amended in Committee, and various provisions have been made dealing with the transfer of children to the care and possession of British persons resident abroad, and we think it better to provide that there should be added to that memorandum a statement to the effect that the care and possession of the child is not permitted to be transferred to anyone abroad except a British national, and that a child can only be so transferred if a permit is obtained from the chief magistrate at Bow Street. We think it as well that that information should be included in the memorandum, so that the mother of the child would realise that her consent is necessary, and that it is her duty or her right to attend court and give her opinion as to whether the transfer of the child to the care and possession of a British subject abroad would be for the good of the child.
    Mr. Gordon Macdonald: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 5, line 24, leave out "England or Wales or in Scotland", and insert "Great Britain"—[Miss Horsbrugh.]

    CLAUSE 6.—(Provisions relating to arrangements made by registered adoption societies).
    Amendments made:
    In page 6, line 25, leave out "England or Wales or in Scotland," and insert "Great Britain."
    In line 35, leave out "England or Wales or in Scotland," and insert "Great Britain."
    In page 7, line 10, leave out "served," and insert "given."
    In line 11, leave out "of the service of the notice," and insert "on which the notice was given."
    In line 15, leave out "served," and insert "given."
    In line 20, leave out "served," and insert "given."
    In line 23, leave out "of the service of the notice," and insert "of the date on which the notice was given."—[Miss Horsbrugh.,]

    CLAUSE 7.—(Certain adopted children to be supervised by welfare authorities).
    Amendments made:
    In page 7, line 40, leave out "England or Wales of in Scotland," and insert "Great Britain."
    In page 8, line 33, leave out "he is required to give," and insert "is required to be given."—[Miss Horsbrugh.]
    Miss Horsbrugh: I beg to move, in page 9, line 32, at the end, to insert "under this section".
    We want to make it quite clear that the offence that is mentioned here is an offence simply under this Section. There has been some misunderstanding, and adding these words "under this section", which deals with a different problem from the other part of the Bill, will make the matter clear.
    Mr. G. Macdonald: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 9, line 40, at the end, insert "under this section."
    In page 11, line 12, leave out "or to," and insert "until he can." [Miss Horsbrugh.]

    CLAUSE 16.—(interpretation)
    Miss Horsbrugh: I beg to move, in page 18, line 28, to leave out "the United Kingdom", and to insert "Great Britain".
    The reason for this Amendment is that I overlooked the fact that although in the original draft there were the words "Great Britain," unfortunately we have now got the words "the United Kingdom." We have no power to legislate or to make directions as to how adoption matters should be carried on in Northern Ireland. The principal Acts for England and Scotland are dealt with and in some cases amended in this Bill, but as we have no power to make any regulations for Northern Ireland, it is necessary to leave Northern Ireland entirely outside the Bill, and children going there for adoption will have the same arrangements made for them as for children going to the Dominions.
    Mr. G. Macdonald: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 19, line 2, leave out "corporate or unincorporated"—[Miss Horsbrugh.]
    11.29.a.m.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    I do not think I can say, as the hon. Member who moved the Motion for the Third Reading of the last Bill was able to say, that this is a small and unambitious Bill. I consider that this Bill is not a small Bill. In fact, during the Committee stage and during the time since the House gave the Bill a Second Reading, I have wished on many occasions that it was a very much smaller Bill. I think hon. Members will agree that although we have all been in agreement with the main principle of the Bill, the difficulty has been to put into words exactly what is meant and what we want done. It is those difficulties that have led to the fact that I have had to ask the Committee and again the House to-day to accept many drafting Amendments.
    I would like to take this opportunity of thanking hon. Members in all parts of the House for the great help which they have given me in doing this work, which I think we have all been anxious to do. I would also like to add my thanks to
    1476
    all the societies outside which are interested in the welfare of children—and the mothers of illegitimate children will be grateful for the great work which is going on on their behalf—for the help that they have given. I realise that many of the adoption societies have been pleased that these reforms should be made, but they also realise, and I hope they are still bearing in mind, the fact that they will have to conform to regulations to which in times past they have not had to conform, and that there must be greater attention paid to details, but I am sure that the adoption societies which are wanting this work properly carried on will be willing and anxious to conform to all the regulations, in order that we may see this very important work carried on as we want to see it carried on. I should also like to add my thanks to all those in the Home Office who have given me their help and, above all, for the interest that they have taken in this matter. I am glad to see that the hon. Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake), representing the Home Office, is in his place to-day, and I think we can congratulate him and ourselves that he is undertaking this work.
    Perhaps I might say one more word before we part with this Bill. I have been interested in this work for more than three years. I have gone into it in some detail, not merely here and with my colleagues on the Departmental Committee sitting round a table, examining documents and hearing evidence, but to a great extent in meeting people who are very intimately connected with it. I have been to many of the homes where these children are, and what has struck me over and over again is what queer creatures human beings are and how are the minds of people who take children, helpless infants some of them, into their homes and make no effort to look after them or to treat them well. That is a strange thing, and especially when we consider the love and affection shown in the majority of homes in this country, it is remarkable. We all know, or most of us know, what is the meaning of good home life, the chance for the child, the chance for its health and happiness, body, soul, and mind. It is something that nothing else in the world can give. It is because I believe that by this Bill we are helping to bring more children into good homes that I hope the House will

    1477
    give it the Third Reading to-day, and so we may be letting many more small children realise the true happiness that can be found in the words "going home."
    11.33.a.m.
    Mr. Mathers: I am glad to have the opportunity of saying a word in support of the Third Reading of this Bill. I, too, like the hon. Lady the Senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh), believe that it is a very important Bill and one that is not at all to be disregarded or that, because of the unanimity we find here this morning and the easy way in which the drafting Amendments have been got through, the Bill for that reason is of little account. It is a Bill of very great importance, and I am sure that it will do an immense amount of good and will bring real happiness into the lives of the children who will come within the bounds of its provisions. I am sure that it must be a gratifying thing to all of us in this House this morning to find ourselves in such an atmosphere of unanimity and dealing with something that is far away from thoughts of war. This Bill deals with something that will bring peace and happiness into homes, and I am sure that its provisions ought to commend themselves to everyone who studies them at all.
    The hon. Lady has given us this morning just a glimpse of her intense interest in this problem of child adoption. She said that she had been interested in this problem for three years. It is many more than three years since I knew that she was interested in this question, and she must have meant this particular aspect as applied to the regulations which will have to be adhered to by child adoption societies and others. She has put in an immense amount of work, and I am sure the House will express its gratitude to her for doing her part, the major part, in putting this Bill into shape and giving us the opportunity of giving it, unanimously I hope, a Third Reading. I know how many Amendments we have had to deal with in Committee on this Measure and how much concern the hon. Lady must have had in getting them properly framed. I hope that those in another place will be kind to the Bill, that they will recognise that we have given a great deal of attention to making it a proper instrument for
    1478
    its purpose, that they will see that the work here has been well and truly done, and that they require to do little more than examine it carefully and give it their blessing so that it may speedily become law.
    The Amendments with which we have been dealing to-day cause us to realise the different countries that are covered by the legislation of this House, and tempt me once again to draw the distinction between Scotland and England, and to welcome the fact that we are emphasising in this Bill, the countries that are comprised in the name of Great Britain. Far too frequently we find "England" used when Great Britain is intended. The House knows my views on this topic, and I will refrain from pursuing it this morning for I do not want even to approach within measurable reach of disunity in connection with this Bill. I am sure that it is a Measure worthy of our acceptance. It is a monument to the care, attention and devotion which have been shown by the hon. Lady the Member for Dundee. In asking the House to give it the Third Reading I congratulate her on the work that she has put in.
    11.38.a.m.
    Sir Joseph Lamb: I should like to support the Third Reading of this Bill. I had not the honour of being on the Committee which considered it, but although I was not able to take an active part in the earlier stages I should like to associate myself with such a Measure. The hon. lady the Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) said that the Bill was not a large one, but a Bill is not to be measured by its size or by the pages that it occupies. Rather is it to be judged by its effect upon humanity. We can say that this Bill has big possibilities and that as the years go by its effect will be more and more seen on the lives of the children who are brought under its provisions. I am sure that they will live to bless the work that has been done. The hon. lady was very generous in the thanks she gave to others who had helped her, but naturally she could not express the amount of thanks we ought to give to her for the interest she has taken in this matter. She has been sustained by her love of children and also by her sense of duty, and I hope she will be rewarded by the knowledge that that duty has been well done.
    11.40.a.m.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): Although, unlike other hon. Members present, I have not been associated with this Bill from the outset, I consider myself fortunate that my first duty in my new situation is to congratulate the hon. lady the Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) upon this excellent and non-controversial Bill having reached its concluding stage in this House. No one who has been in the House for only a few years can have failed to notice the legislative achievements of its lady Members. Lady Members in all parties have their names associated with considerable achievements in the field of our Friday legislation. The hon. lady to-day is adding another notable Measure to those efforts. She has been not only the pilot of this Bill, but the architect of it as well. As Chairman of the Departmental Committee upon whose report the Bill is founded, she has been personally responsible in very large measure for its construction.
    I should like on behalf of my Department to acknowledge the thanks which she has tendered for the technical assistance which we have been able to render. Good adoption laws have in the past been the hall-mark of a high degree of civilisation. This Measure will, I think, remedy most, if not all, of the defects which have appeared as a result of our experience of the operation of the Act of 1926. If I may permit myself, as I think, the hon. lady permitted herself, to strike a note of sentiment in connection with this Bill, I should say that not least among its merits is the fact that its principal beneficiaries will be those small persons, the noise of whose pattering feet is indeed "like softest music to attending ears", We all share in the wish that the name of the hon. lady may be for ever associated with this Measure.
    11.43.a.m.
    Mr. R. Morgan: May I extend my congratulations to the hon. Lady on having carried through this Bill? I have been associated with children for many years. I belonged to the teaching profession for a long time and I can assure the hon. Lady that the members of that profession are profoundly grateful to her for bringing forward this Bill. Those of us who have looked into the history of children know something of the abuses that have been connected with their adoption. I am
    1480
    glad to say that this Bill will further safeguard those who are being adopted. It has been my privilege to assist in carrying out arrangements for the adoption of children in many cases during my professional and political career. The only regret I have had in the last 10 years has been to see the time come in the adopted child's life when there was what I might call the parting of the ways. It is not dealt with in this Bill. I have seen many excellent cases of adoption. I have seen the sad time when the child grew up to 18 and discovered, when it had to produce a birth certificate, that it had adopted parents. We cannot alter that but it is one of the sad features of the problem of adoption. I remember a case recently in which a girl, having reached the age of 19, decided to join the nursing profession, and it was a great shock to her when she discovered that her adopted parents were not her real parents. But that really has nothing to do with this Bill; and I wish on behalf of the teaching profession to add my appreciation of the action of the hon. Lady in bringing forward so excellent a Bill.
    11.46.a.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: As a Member of the Committee which considered this Bill I should like to offer by congratulations to the hon. Lady the Senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh), however wide the contract between her politics and mine. For a long number of years I have been deeply interested in children, and not only those who are in institutions, for I have kept up an association with many children who have been adopted, and I have watched them growing up, and noted the care which has been shown to them in the homes to which they have been taken. One thing that strikes anyone who gives any attention to children who have left their parents is the deep desire on the part of those children for a little personal affection. The last time I visited one of these institutions I happened to be near a little girl, and I patted her head, and all the other children came running round and seemed to me to be gasping for a similar little touch of personal regard. Many of the children who are taken from institutions and adopted are cared for and given every attention and treated as though they were the actual children of those who have adopted them, but I have known of other

    1481
    instances where adopted children have been treated with the most utter b neglect from the moment they were taken from the institution, and it is in order to prevent anything of that kind and to ensure that adopted children shall be well cared for that this Bill has been brought forward.
    In Committee I drew attention to the fact that whilst every effort has been made to provide protection for children who are adopted, there is no effort to protect adults who may be adopted by children, because I have had experience of children who have adopted parents, have taken possession of the home and ordered the parents about as though they themselves were supreme in everything. Of course, that is something with which the Bill is not concerned; but so far as it will remedy any existing defects I, in company with all other hon. Members present, welcome the Bill on its Third Reading, and hope that little children who are adopted will benefit from it. That is the intention of the Bill, and with that intention I am in full accord.
    Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, agreed to.
    Bill read the Third time, and passed.
    Mr. Speaker: A Royal Commission is expected at 12 o'clock, If I were to go through all the Orders on the Paper, this House on a Friday would stand adjourned under the Standing Orders. I will therefore, sit in the Chair until it is time for the Royal Commission.

    ROYAL ASSENT.
    Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
    The House went; and, having returned: —
    Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—

    1.Census of Production Act, 1939.

    2.Prevention of Fraud (Investments) Act,1939.

    3. Army and Air Force (Annual) Act, 1939.

    1482

    4. Local Government Superannuation Act, 1939.

    5. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Colchester) Act, 1939.

    6. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Newbury) Act, 1939.

    7. Exeter Extension Act, 1939.

    And to the following Measures passed under the provisions of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919:

    1. Queen Anne's Bounty (Powers)Measure, 1939.

    2. Ecclesiastical Officers Remuneration Measure, 1939.

    Mr. A. Herbert: On a point of Order At the interesting ceremony that we have just witnessed in another place, I observed, and some of my colleagues of greater experience also observed, that the Clerk of the Parliaments failed to bow to the faithful Commons. I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, assuming that I am right in saying that precedent has always commanded and received the Clerk of the Parliaments' bow to the faithful Commons, you will make representations in the proper quarter that that proceeding be again resumed?
    Mr. Speaker: I did not notice the incident myself, but I will inquire into it.

    PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
    Ordered.
    "That Captain Wallace be discharged from the Committee of Public Accounts, and that Captain Crookshank be added to the Committee."—[Mr. James Stuart.]
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 2.
    Adjourned at Thirteen Minutes after Twelve o'Clock, until Monday next, 1st May.

  ALIENS (NATURALISATION).
  ALIENS (NATURALISATION).
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (EX-SERVICE MEN).
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (EX-SERVICE MEN).
Preamble
The House met at twelve of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills and Measures received the Royal Assent:

Census of Production.

Prevention of Fraud (Investments).

Army and Air Force (Annual).

Local Government Superannuation.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Colchester).

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Newbury).

Exeter Extension.

Queen Anne's Bounty (Powers) Measure.

Ecclesiastical Officers Remuneration Measure.

House adjourned, after judicial business, at twenty minutes before four o'clock.