Sitting of 27 April 1939

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. Speaker n the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
South Shields Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. Craven-Ellisasked the Minister of Labour the total amount of unemployment at the peak period for the years 1923, 1929, 1934, 1937, and 1938?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): As the reply includes a Table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    The Table below gives the information desired so far as it is available:

    Unemployed Persons on the Registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain.

    Date.

    Number.

    1st January, 1923

    …

    1,511,377

    30th December, 1929

    …

    1,510,231

    22nd January, 1934

    …

    2,389,068

    25th January, 1937

    …

    1,689,223

    12th December, 1938

    …

    1,831,372

    Legislative and administrative changes between 1923 and 1938 have affected comparison between the different years. The information available is insufficient to enable a series of figures to be given on a strictly comparable basis.
    Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed registering at the Employment Exchanges; the number receiving payments; and the number not receiving any payments owing to the means tests or through being on public assistance relief?
    Mr. Brown: At 13th March, 1939, there were 1,726,929 unemployed persons, aged 14 and over, on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain, of whom 38,577 were under 16 years of age. The remainder included 1,529,471 persons aged 16–64 with claims admitted for insurance benefit or applications authorised for unemployment allowances, 31,937 with applications for benefit or allowances under consideration, and 20,939 insured applicants for allowances in whose cases it had been held that no allowance could be paid. The number who were in receipt of poor relief at 13th March is not available, but in February, 1939, there were approximately 26,000 persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain who were returned as being in receipt of poor relief on account of unemployment.
    Mr. Batey: Why does the Minister give such inaccurate figures? Why does he not tell us just the total number unemployed and the total number receiving relief?
    Mr. Brown: I think the hon. Member will find that not merely have I done that, but I have helped him to understand what the total figures mean.
    Mr. Thorne: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some day he will be putting questions which somebody else will answer in a different way from that in which he has answered them?
    Mr. Brown: That may be.

    EXCHANGES (ACCOMMODATION).
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that many Employment Exchanges throughout the country are without lavatory accommodation for either men or women; and whether, in view of the fact that unemployed persons are often compelled to stay at the exchanges for considerable periods he will, in the interests of health, see that such accommodation is provided at all exchanges?
    Mr. E. Brown: It is the intention of my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works to provide conveniences for applicants where practicable and necessary in all except the smallest local offices, but the rate of progress must necessarily be giverned by the prior claims of more urgent work at the present time.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware of the serious inconvenience which this causes to the unemployed and the danger to health, and will he, therefore, speed up this work?
    Mr. Brown: The answer shows that there is continuous improvement going on.

    ASSISTANCE.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that although the Cardiff Public Assistance Committee have decided to raise the allowance to single coloured seamen living in seamen's lodging houses from 12s. to 15s. a week, thus putting them on the same level as single men living at home the Unemployment Assistance Board have refused to follow suit for men living in identical conditions, although when the Unemployment Assistance Board scale was originally decided upon, 12s. was chosen so as to be in line with the public assistance committee; and whether, in view of this differentiation, he will take the matter up with the Unemployment Assistance Board?
    Mr. E. Brown: I understand that the Cardiff Public Assistance Committee have recently reviewed and increased the allowances made to coloured seamen in a number of individual cases, but that no general rate of 15s. a week has been established. As regards the Unemployment Assistance Board's practice, I am informed that while the allowances are based upon a rate of 12s. In accordance with the advice of the local advisory committee they are adjusted according to the circumstances of the case and that they range in fact up to 15s. Or more per week.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very serious complaints that many coloured seamen who are in exactly the same position as those receiving 15s. per week, receive only 12s.?
    Mr. Brown: I do not accept that as a general statement. As a matter of fact, in a census taken in 1938, 109 coloured seamen living in Cardiff dock area had an allowance from the Board as single persons and in 49 cases were receiving from 13s. 6d. to 17s. per week.
    Mr. George Hall: May I ask why there is any distinction drawn between coloured and white seamen?
    Mr. Brown: There is a special rule in the case of coloured seamen in order to meet the particular circumstances of the case, because it is a question whether men are living communally or not. The hon. Member will see that the position is not quite the same with regard to white seamen.
    Mr. Hall: I know Cardiff fairly well, and I cannot see why there should be any distinction.
    Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member desires a precise statement about white seamen I shall be glad to give it.
    Mr. Daggarasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that an unemployed man living at Wrexham and in receipt of an allowance of 32s. per week for his housekeeper, his two children, and himself, had occasion recently to return to Abertillery, where he remained for one week and was granted an allowance for himself of 15s., and, before returning to Wrexham applied to the Abertillery Unemployment Assistance Board offices for assistance; was informed there that no assistance could be given for that purpose, and that he should jump a lorry and get back the best way he could, although after inquiries were made, the applicant was allowed 5s.; and whether he will advise the local officer at Abertillery to refrain from making such suggestions?
    Mr. Brown: I am informed by the Board that they are inquiring into this matter, but that their inquiries are not yet complete. I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as I am in a position to do so.
    Mr. S.O. Daviesasked the Minister of Labour whether he will give for Carmarthenshire, Glamorgan, and Monmouthshire the number of applicants for assistance under the Unemployment Assistance Board who, since 1st January, 1938, have been penalised under Section 40 of the Unemployment Act, 1934, and have as a consequence been either refused assistance or whose assistance has been given partly in money and partly in kind or wholly in kind?
    Mr. Brown: I am informed by the Unemployment Assistance Board that statistics are not available to show the number of applicants whose cases have at some time since 1st January, 1938,

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    been dealt with under Section 40 of the Act. A recent inquiry relating to a given date, namely 25th March, showed that in the counties of Carmarthen, Glamorgan and Monmouth 92 allowances were then being paid subject to one or other of the conditions set out in that section, including 44 which involved payment partly in kind. No applicant has been refused an allowance under Section 41 in consequence of his failure to comply with any of the conditions set out in Section 40.
    Mr. Davies: Will any inquiry be made as to why there is this increasing pressure of the application of Section 40?
    Mr. Brown: I do not agree that there is any increased pressure.

    MEANS TEST.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Labour what would be the approximate cost of the abolition of the means test and the abolition of the household means test, respectively?
    Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Labour the cost that would be involved in the abolition of the household means test?
    Mr. Brown: I regret that it is not possible to add anything to the information given in a reply to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) on 16th July, 1936, of which I am sending the hon. Members a copy.
    Mr. Dalton: Since the right hon. Gentleman has referred to an answer he gave to me on a previous occasion, may I remind him that he gave me no information at all? How does it come about that the Ministry of Labour is unable to work out a simple sum in arithmetic?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member will recollect that in the answer which I gave him I gave formidable reasons why it could not be done, and if hon. Members will also read the answer they will see that they are not merely formidable but convincing reasons.
    Mr. E. Smith: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman said last week that if this question were put down he would give an answer? Has he considered it in the meantime? And in view of the cruel effect on our people of the means test and the relatively small amount involved, is it not time that it was reconsidered?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot agree with the averages of the hon. Member or with his conclusions. I think that any Government sitting on these benches would have to have a means test.
    Mr. Mander: Is it not the case that if this were a question of armaments or National Defence there would be no difficulty in providing the approximately small sum of money, and will he not, therefore, reconsider the question?
    Mr. Brown: On the contrary. If the hon. Member will look at the answer I gave in 1936 he will be fully satisfied, and also if he will look at the large number of questions which have been answered in the years following.
    Mr. Lawson: Is it not a fact beyond contradiction that the administrative costs of this are infinitely higher than the actual amount which is saved, and therefore will he abolish something which is a general nuisance?
    Mr. Brown: I do not accept that general statement. Two things have to be taken into account with regard to money, and that is not merely the actual amount paid to those who are applicants but also the fact that if there were no means test there would be many thousands more applicants.
    Mr. Kennedyasked the Minister of Labour whether the modification or abolition of the household means test has been considered by the Unemployment Assistance Board; and whether he will take action to modify or abolish the test?
    Mr. Brown: No, Sir.
    Mr. Kennedy: In view of the small sum involved and the deep resentment felt by those concerned, will not the Minister consider the abolition of this means test?
    Mr. Brown: I have already answered that question.

    INSTRUCTIONAL CENTRE, HAMSTERLEY.
    Mr. Sextonasked the Minister of Labour whether he has received the report on the recent trouble at the labour camp at Bedburn, County Durham; and whether he will make the report available to Members of the House of Commons?
    Mr. E. Brown: I have now made full inquiries and am satisfied that there was nothing in the conditions at the

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    Hamsterley Instructional Centre to justify the men in leaving. The complaints made were that biscuits were not served at supper, that there was some shortage of bread at tea and that the bacon and eggs at breakfast were often cold: of these the last alone had any substantial basis and this has now been rectified. I do not propose to publish the reports made by my officers on the subject.
    Mr. Sexton: Can the Minister tell me whether the men now have cloths on the tables?
    Mr. Brown: Not without notice, but I will inquire.
    Mr. Poole: Is not a shortage of bread a very serious cause for complaint?
    Mr. Brown: This is on one particular day. The hon. Member must understand that it does not apply generally.
    Mr. Poole: Would not the right hon. Gentleman find it a serious cause for complaint if there were a shortage of bread for one day?
    Mr. Brown: And so would the hon. Member. He must understand that housekeeping is not always easy.
    Mr. Sexton: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of the question, as to whether he will make the report available to hon. Members?
    Mr. Brown: I have answered that.
    Mr. Sextonasked the Minister of Labour the average number of men and resident officials, respectively, in the Bedburn Ministry of Labour camp, County Durham, and the average weekly cost for food for the men and staff, respectively?
    Mr. E. Brown: The average numbers in the year ending 31st March, 1939, were 158 men and 19 officials. Separate costs for men and officials are not available as food is drawn from a common store. The average weekly cost of food per head was 11s. 7d. excluding any allowances for cooking, service, etc.
    Mr. Sexton: Does the answer of the right hon. Gentleman infer that the 11s. 7d. includes salmon and the other things he has mentioned?
    Mr. Brown: It means what it says.

    BO'NESS.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the worsened employment position at Bo'ness consequent upon the closing down of Bridgeness Colliery; and whether he is entering into consultation with the Secretary for Mines in an effort to relieve the position?
    Mr. E. Brown: I very much regret the recent reduction in the number of wage-earners employed at the pits comprising the Bridgeness Colliery, Bo'ness. I understand that the company have stated that the pits had become uneconomic owing to the impending exhaustion of the available coal, and that they have therefore been closed permanently. As regards the second part of the question, which the hon. Member has supplemented in his personal letter to me, I have been in communication with my hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines, who informs me that he has no powers in the matter. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that my Department will continue to take every opportunity of securing the re-absorption of the workpeople displaced in alternative employment and I am glad to be able to state that 20 of the men have already secured employment at a neighbouring colliery.

    DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN.
    Sir Smedley Crookeasked the Minister of Labour how many disabled ex-Service men have been placed in employment in Government Departments or with local authorities during the past 12 months; whether he is satisfied that this number is satisfactory in view of the expansion of Government and local authority activities in connection with rearmament and Air-Raid Precautions schemes?
    Mr. E. Brown: I regret that the figures desired are not available. As regards the second part of the question, I can assure my hon. Friend that every effort is made by Government Departments to engage disabled ex-Service men when suitable vacancies arise, and I have no doubt that local authorities take the same action. Local King's Roll Committees and Employment Exchanges have the question well in mind and disabled ex-Service men are submitted to Government Departments and local authorities whenever possible.
    Mr. Lipson: Would my right hon. Friend circularise Government Departments and local authorities reminding them that, in view of the desirability of younger men being called upon for some form of National Service, there should be a special opportunity for the employment of disabled ex-Service men?
    Mr. Brown: I do not think that is necessary. The records of recent years show that all the authorities are aware of and sympathetic to this.
    Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte: Other things being equal, are disabled ex-Service men given preference?
    Mr. Brown: That is the rule.

    ARMAMENTS INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Labour whether he can give an estimate of the number of persons on the unemployment register who are connected with the trades employed in the production of armaments?
    Mr. E. Brown: I regret that the available information is insufficient for the purpose of such an estimate.

    BURNLEY.
    Mr. Burkeasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the proportion of unemployed persons to insured workers in Burnley is over 20 per cent., and what plans he has in mind, either under Government schemes, or otherwise, for reducing the heavy unemployment in this town?
    Mr. E. Brown: I regret that Burnley has not so far been able to take advantage of the financial facilities provided by the Government to attract new industries to areas of heavy unemployment. I can assure the hon. Member that, while I have every hope that the Government's policy for stimulating employment and reducing unemployment will make for general improvement, the particular position of Burnley as an area of heavy unemployment will not be lost sight of by my Department.
    Mr. Burke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not a single factory has been put up in Lancashire, and does he not think it advisable that, instead of building new townships in the South, factories should be built in the North?
    Mr. Brown: I can assure the hon. Member that he has had a sympathetic listener in the Minister.
    Mr. Burke: Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman's sympathy ceased and something practical was done?
    Mr. Brown: A great deal has been done in many places.
    Mr. Burke: Not in Burnley.
    Mr. Brown: Let us hope that Burnley will come next.
    Mr. Burkeasked the Minister of Labour how many operatives connected with the building trades were unemployed in Burnley on the last convenient date in March, 1939?
    Mr. E. Brown: At 13th March, 1939, there were 451 insured persons, aged 14 to 64, in the building industry classification recorded as unemployed at the Burnley Employment Exchange.
    Mr. Burke: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider building Government factories in this borough, or reconditioning some of the mills?
    Mr. George Griffiths: Will the right hon. Gentleman not forget the Hemsworth Division also?
    Mr. Brown: I shall not be allowed to do so.

    SOUTH WALES.
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered representations from the Carmarthenshire County Council in reference to the increase in unemployment in certain areas in the county; and what steps he proposes to deal with the matter?
    Mr. E. Brown: On Tuesday last, I received a communication from the Carmarthenshire County Council which is receiving my active and sympathetic consideration.
    Mr. E. J. Williamsasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in receipt of benefit and Unemployment Assistance Board allowances, respectively, at the Maesteg, Bridgend, Aberkenfig, Ogmore Vale, and Pontycymmer Employment Exchanges for each month of 1934, 1935, 1936, 1937, 1938, and to date?
    Mr. Brown: I am having the available figures extracted and will send them to the hon. Member.

  NATIONAL DEFENCE.

    MEETINGS.
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Labour how many speakers were available for the National Service campaign as a result of his appeal; and how many meetings have been held since the National Service meeting at Montagu House?
    Mr. E. Brown: As a result of my appeal for a central reserve of speakers, 374 offers have been received. These are additional to the large number of speakers whose services are available locally to the National Service committees. Many meetings have been held and are being held of which I have no precise statistical record. As regards what may be described as larger meetings, 24 have been held since 28th March and 22 others are about to be held.
    Miss Ward: Is it not possible to hold public meetings right throughout the country?
    Mr. Brown: The answer is that it would be unnecessary. In many parts of the country there is overwhelming evidence that the National Service campaign is succeeding. There are areas where there is a surplus in all the services.
    Miss Ward: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that people like to have meetings even if they have volunteered? That is the point.
    Mr. Brown: While I realise that point, my view is that the most urgent need is to hold meetings in the areas where there is a deficiency.
    Miss Ward: Cannot we all go there?

    RESERVED OCCUPATIONS.
    Mr. Anstruther-Grayasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is now in a position to announce any revision in the Schedule of Reserved Occupations?
    The Lord Privy Seal (Sir John Anderson): Yes, Sir. The Schedule has been carefully examined, and as a result amendments have been made which will remove from the opera-
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    tion of the Schedule in peace time about 1,500,000 men. Of these, some 630,000 are under 38 years of age, giving a further field of recruitment for the Territorial Field Army. The remainder between the ages of 38 and 50 will be available for the Anti-Aircraft Coast Defence and similar units as well as for whole-time service in various branches of Civil Defence. Full details of these amendments are being issued to the Press to-night. Further examination of the situation may be required in view of the announcement made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
    Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for as much of this information as possible to be broadcast?
    Sir J. Anderson: That will be considered.
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: May I ask how many people remain in reserved occupations?
    Sir J. Anderson: I cannot say offhand.

  LICENSED TRADE (EMPLOYMENT CONDITIONS).
  Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Labour whether he can make any statement on his consultations with the employers' organisations in the licensed victualling trade and with the Transport and General Workers' Union regarding the unsatisfactory conditions of employment in the trade?
  Mr. E. Brown: I have been informed by the National Trade Defence Association that inquiries which they have made show that, apart from isolated cases, the conditions in the trade are not as represented, and that until they can discover whether the alleged bad conditions exist they consider that it would be premature to meet officials of the trade unions concerned. The Association have further stated that it would greatly facilitate their task if I would furnish them with actual cases of the bad conditions which are stated to exist in the trade. I have accordingly obtained from the workers' representatives further information bearing on these matters, which I propose to discuss with the National Trade Defence Association at an early date.
  Mr. Parker: Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to get both sides to discuss this matter fully and properly?
  Mr. Brown: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to conduct these discussions first.

  LAUNDRIES, WEST COUNTRY (EMPLOYÉS' HOLIDAYS).
  Mr. Rathboneasked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered representations from West-country laundries against a proposed order by the Laundry Trade Board that the annual holiday with pay must be granted to employés between 1st April and 31st October; and whether he will take into consideration the difficulties that would be involved if such an order were made compulsory on laundries situated in holiday resorts, whose busiest season is between these dates?
  Mr. E. Brown: No, Sir. This is a matter for the Laundry Trade Board. Before the proposals can be adopted the Board is required to consider any objection received within the statutory period, which expires on 11th June next.

  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  Miss Wardasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will give an assurance that in future Wallsend-on-Tyne shall rank as equal priority for Civil Defence purposes as Newcastle-on-Tyne and Gates-head-on-Tyne?
  Sir J. Anderson: I can assure the hon. Lady that the great importance of Tyne-side in regard to Civil Defence is fully appreciated. She has been good enough to let me know that some feeling has been aroused locally because a circular letter had been sent by my Department to the county boroughs of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead with regard to the distribution of the house-holder's steel shelter without any such communication having been sent at the same time to Wallsend. The hon. Lady will appreciate that, though the productive capacity of the steel industry is being used to the maximum, it has been necessary to arrange for the progressive distribution of the supplies, as they come forward, and it would not have been possible to supply the whole of
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  Tyneside simultaneously without detriment to other areas to the importance of which the Government must have due regard. In a further circular letter issued on Tuesday last the Borough of Wallsend was included among a number of local authorities who were requested to take action in connection with the distribution of the shelter. The hon. Lady will appreciate that Wallsend is now being treated on the same footing as Newcastle and Gateshead.
  Miss Ward: While thanking my right hon. Friend may I have an assurance that in future the whole of the Tyneside, in view of its vulnerability and the fact that they are not allowed to have a single factory for the manufacture of aircraft there, will be included in the Newcastle-on-Tyne limits?
  Sir J. Anderson: I can assure the hon. Lady that I will do my best to be fair to all sides.
  Miss Ward: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I must, with regret, raise this matter on the Adjournment.
  Mr. Haydayasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that the chairman of the Air-Raid Precautions Committee for the City of Nottingham is a Territorial officer liable immediately to be called up for service in the Army in a national emergency; and, as at such a time air-raid precautions direction is of vital importance to the civilian population, will he take the matter up with the responsible authority to secure the appointment of a chairman who can give continuous service in a national emergency?
  Sir J. Anderson: I cannot offer any comment on a particular case, but I would remind the hon. Member of the request recently addressed to local authorities that, to provide effectively for local Civil Defence duties in time of war, they should appoint at once a Controller and a small Emergency Committee. It is certainly important that the persons so appointed should be people free from other conflicting commitments.
  Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware of the delay caused in the provision of air-raid shelters in commercial buildings by the fact that owners are unable to proceed

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  with their plans owing to the absence of the Code; and whether he can state when the Code will be issued in its final form?
  Sir J. Anderson: The Code was issued in a provisional form on Monday last. The hon. Member will appreciate that it cannot be issued in final statutory form until the Bill has passed into law but I am satisfied that the published draft may safely be taken now as a practical guide.
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Lord Privy Seal what local authorities in England have submitted air-raid fire pre cautions schemes under the Air-Raid Precautions Act, 1937; and which of these have been sanctioned?
  Sir J. Anderson: Eight hundred and forty-six boroughs and urban district councils have submitted air-raid fire precautions schemes, 812 have been examined, and the great majority of them have now been settled in principle.
  Mr. Kirbyasked the Lord Privy Seal whether his expert engineering advisers have yet expressed an opinion upon the Liverpool Corporation's scheme to provide a certain amount of bomb proof shelter by covering in narrow streets in densely populated areas of the city?
  Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir, and a communication has been addressed to the city authorities on the subject.
  Mr. Kirbyasked the Lord Privy Seal what arrangements, apart from the general scheme of supply to individuals in their own homes, have been made to ensure an adequate supply of gas-masks in the hospitals and Poor Law institutions of Liverpool for the use of patients and inmates during a period of emergency?
  Sir J. Anderson: The numbers of persons in these institutions were included in the figures, supplied by the local authority, on which the issues of respirators have been based. The local authority, therefore, have sufficient respirators for the purposes mentioned in the question.
  Mr. Lyons: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that is the practice that has been pursued in every large city?
  Sir J. Anderson: That is certainly the general practice.
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has considered the resolution passed at a town's meeting in Leyton Town Hall on 20th April, demanding a policy of deep bomb-proof shelters; how many similar resolutions he has received up to date; and whether he has any further statement to make on the matter?
  Sir J. Anderson: I have received this resolution. I cannot say how many similar resolutions may have been received by the Department from time to time urging the provision of deep air-raid shelters for the civil population. As regards the third part of the question I have nothing to add to the statement of policy which I made on 20th April in reply to questions by the hon. Members for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) and the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker).
  Mr. Sorensen: Would it not be valuable to secure a list of the various districts passing resolutions of this kind? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this resolution was the spontaneous expression of an audience which numbered 500 people and will he not reconsider the matter in view of Leyton's proximity to the danger area?
  Sir J. Anderson: I have looked at the resolution carefully. I suggest that those who are disposed to pass such resolutions should first consider the reasoned statement contained in the report of the Hailey conference.
  Mr. G. Griffiths: Is not the Lord Privy Seal aware that public meetings all over the country have passed resolutions similar to this, and will he not listen to public opinion?
  Sir J. Anderson: It is not a question of listening to public opinion, but a question of doing what is best for the community as a whole.
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is considering any further facilities to be offered to householders for the strengthening of cellars and basements by steel supports, or to assist those who cannot, or prefer not to utilise steel shelters effectively to improve other partial means of protection?
  Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir. A circular letter was issued on Tuesday last to the

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  local authorities in the areas most exposed to risk, setting out the action to be taken for the further development of the Government's shelter programme. I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
  Mr. Sorensen: Does that include the provision of steel supports?
  Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Duncan: What is the object of the circular published in the "Times" this morning asking for a survey? Should not a survey have been carried out a long time ago?
  Sir J. Anderson: Partial surveys have been carried out. The object of the circular was to ensure the completion of surveys throughout the country.
  Mr. Dayasked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been called to the fact that many landlords of buildings in vulnerable areas who have let off same in suites or floors have not taken the necessary precautions in the event of air raids or a national emergency to safeguard those persons resident or employed in such buildings; and will he take immediate steps to ensure all such persons being afforded adequate protection?
  Sir J. Anderson: If the residents in these buildings are within the classes entitled to free provision of shelter, they will be covered by the arrangements described in the circular which was issued on Tuesday last to local authorities in the more vulnerable areas.
  Mr. Day: Will the Minister see that landlords have this circular brought to their notice?
  Sir J. Anderson: The circular is available to all through the usual channels.
  Mr. John Morganasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has supplied the county borough of Doncaster with a supply of gas masks adequate for the normal population; what are the terms of the representations he has recently received on the subject; and what answer he has given?
  Sir J. Anderson: 73,650 civilian respirators have been supplied to Don-caster, including a supplementary issue of 6,750 this month which was asked for as an instalment towards the final requirements. I believe the population is
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  less than 72,000, so the issue already made should be sufficient; but if when the fitting census has been completed more are required they will be issued. I have received no representations recently from the local authority other than the request for the additional quantity which has been supplied.
  Mr. Morgan: Is the figure of 72,000 which the right hon. Gentleman quoted based on the latest Census returns, or is it an ascertained figure?
  Sir J. Anderson: It is not an ascertained figure but the best figure I could arrive at. As I have indicated, the number of respirators actually issued is over 80,000.
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Lord Privy Seal why, in view of his decision that there is a case for providing heavily protected shelter for certain key-points and for the employé's in certain vital services, he does not consider that in the national interest the industrial population generally should be provided with similar effective shelter?
  Sir J. Anderson: This was one of the recommendations of the Hailey Conference on Air-Raid Shelters, and reasoned arguments in favour of it are given in the report of that conference, which was presented to Parliament on 19th April. As I have already informed the House, the recommendations made in that report have been accepted in principle by the Government, and on this point I have nothing to add to the full statement which I made on 20th April in answer to questions by the hon. Members for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) and the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker).
  Mr. Adams: May I have an answer to the latter part of my question?
  Sir J. Anderson: I intended to imply that that question was answered in the detailed report of the Hailey Conference which I cannot attempt to summarise in reply to a Parliamentary question.
  Mr. Adams: Do I understand that considerable sections of the industrial population are to receive no protection?
  Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir.
  Mr. Adams: Is not that the meaning of it?
  Sir John Mellorasked the Lord Privy Seal whether it is his intention to fix any period of time during which a local authority may be permitted to defer transference of control of air-raid wardens to the police; and whether those local authorities which still retain control of air-raid wardens will be required to transfer control to the police on the out break of war?
  Sir J. Anderson: I have not thought it necessary to fix any definite time limit, and there would be obvious disadvantages in insisting on a change of control at the outset of an emergency. Arrangements to ensure effective liaison between the wardens' service and the police in time of war are necessary in any event, and this matter is being attended to.
  Sir J. Mellor: Does not my right hon. Friend think that it would be much better that the whole situation should be dealt with forthwith so that everybody will know where they will be under war conditions, and that the transfer should be made forthwith rather than wait to be completed in time of war?
  Sir J. Anderson: It has been thought right to allow a certain latitude in this matter. There is no question of suddenly changing on the onset of an emergency.
  Mr. R. C. Morrison: How many local authorities have refused to transfer their wardens?
  Sir J. Anderson: The number is relatively very small.
  Mr. G. Straussasked the Lord Privy Seal why hurricane lamps supplied by the Government to Lincolnshire and the East Riding of Yorkshire for air-raid precautions purposes were of German manufacture?
  Sir J. Anderson: In connection with a lighting experiment which was to have been carried out in the Humber district last week-end it was necessary to provide a large number of hurricane lamps. As the local authorities concerned were not in a position to supply all the lamps required, my Department arranged to obtain 2,000 lamps on loan from the Office of Works. I understand that these were supplied from existing stocks held by the Office of Works, which were bought during the emergency last September. At that time it was considered essential to
  1300
  obtain all available supplies, and, as British-made lamps could not then be obtained in time in sufficient number, there was no alternative but to purchase such lamps as were available from stocks held by traders in this country.
  Mr. Strauss: May we take it that none of the hurricane lamps bought since are of German manufacture?
  Sir J. Anderson: I think so.
  Mr. Bellenger: Does the answer indicate that in the event of another emergency we shall have to rely on Germany to provide essential stocks of things like hurricane lamps?
  Sir J. Anderson: No, we are not relying on Germany for supplying anything essential.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is there no protection from a Government Department which purchases equipment from a foreign country in a time of crisis?
  Sir J. Anderson: We did not purchase equipment from a foreign country. It was equipment that happened to be in this country.
  Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Lord Privy Seal how many steel shelters had been delivered to householders in the Greater London area up to 22nd April, 1939?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am not in a position to say how many of these shelters have actually been delivered to householders, but the number despatched from contractors' works up to 22nd April to areas within the Metropolitan Police District is 138,000.
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Lord Privy Seal the measures he is taking to stimulate local authorities who are showing a reluctance to complete the organisation of air-raid precautions in the area under their control?
  Sir J. Anderson: I issued a circular to all scheme-making local authorities on 18th April asking them, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, to give priority to Civil Defence measures during the following three months. The regional officers of the Air-Raid Precautions Department are in constant touch with the local authorities in their areas; and can supplement, as occasion arises, any representations which the Department may make.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the local authorities are doing everything that is required in the preparations for an emergency?
  Sir J. Anderson: There are local variations naturally, but I am satisfied that there has of late been a very marked improvement.
  Mr. Benjamin Smith: Is the right hon. Gentleman equally satisfied that the representatives he sends to local authorities are always helpful, and not often obstructive?
  Mr. Lunn: Are they getting the financial assistance they ought to get?
  Sir J. Anderson: The terms of the financial assistance are not within the discretion of His Majesty's Government. They were settled by Parliament in the Act of 1937.
  Mr. Sandysasked the Lord Privy Seal what arrangements his Department is making to provide additional earth or rubble for the purpose of covering over steel householders' shelters in districts where these cannot be adequately sunk; and whether the cost entailed will rank for grant?
  Sir J. Anderson: Consideration has been given to the difficulty that arises when, owing to the high level of subsoil water, it is not possible to sink the householder's shelter to an adequate depth into the ground. If the local authority is able to obtain at reasonable cost sufficient earth and rubble to provide adequate cover for the shelters, the expenditure so incurred will rank for grant under the Air-Raid Precautions Act. In some cases it may be found preferable to cover the shelter with concrete, and the cost of this will similarly rank for grant. My technical advisers have been working upon designs for alternative types of shelter which may be found more suitable in areas where the local problem cannot readily be resolved by the use of the steel shelter; and these designs will be published very shortly.
  Mr. Sandys: Can my right hon. Friend say whether his Department have issued a circular to local authorities giving them this information?
  Sir J. Anderson: I do not think a general circular has been issued, but we have been dealing with particular cases on their merits.
  Mr. Sandys: Is it not important that local authorities, who cannot always be looking through the OFFICIAL REPORT, should know that they have these powers?
  Sir J. Anderson: I will certainly look into that point.
  Mr. Whiteleyasked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the event of an air raid and gas attack the fumes will cause danger to miners working underground; and whether he is taking any steps to deal with this problem?
  Sir J. Anderson: A Memorandum outlining the precautions necessary in collieries for the protection of employés was issued last year to all colliery undertakings. I am sending the hon. Member a copy and would refer him particularly to Section 8.
  Mr. Whiteley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since this was issued advice has been sought on this matter, and that it has been declared by experts that the fumes can penetrate shafts and cause great damage?
  Sir J. Anderson: That is exactly the point dealt with in Section 8 of the Memorandum to which I have referred.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Can this Memorandum be circulated to all mining Members, or printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
  Sir J. Anderson: I will certainly have it put in the Library, and if wider circulation is required I will consider providing for it.
  Mr. Benjamin Smith: Have all persons working underground, such as men in cold storage premises, been getting the same advice?
  Sir J. Anderson: This question related to coal mines, and the circular to which I have referred was dealing with coal mines.
  Mr. Manderasked the Lord Privy Seal what instructions have recently been given to town clerks and clerks to councils giving authority to act without the permission or knowledge of their mayors, chairmen, aldermen or councillors?
  Sir J. Anderson: No such instructions have been issued by my Department.
  Mr. Mander: If I bring to the Lord Privy Seal's attention various conferences

  1303
  held in these circumstances will he be good enough to look into the matter, and before anything of the kind is done, will he take into consultation the various local authorities?
  Sir J. Anderson: Certainly. I have already entered into consultations, and the Circular shows clearly that it could not be carried out without a reference to the local authorities.
  Mr. Mander: Then are town clerks and clerks to councils at liberty to explain to their mayors and chairmen what has been told to them?
  Sir J. Anderson: Most certainly.
  Mr. E. J. Williamsasked the Lord Privy Seal whether air-raid precautions work in every section is part of the National Service scheme; who is the controlling body in the county of Glamorgan; and what are the functions and consultative powers of all local authorities within the county with regard to air-raid precautions?
  Sir J. Anderson: Public air-raid precautions work is part of Civil Defence and personnel enrolled for such work fall within the National Service scheme. The county council is the authority charged with the duty of preparing an air-raid general precautions scheme for the county, after consultation with the councils of county districts within the county, and it is the duty of every local authority within the county to discharge such functions as may be imposed on it by the Act of 1937, or by the county scheme made thereunder.
  Miss Wardasked the Minister of Health whether a decision has now been taken to include the various boroughs bordering on the River Tyne in those areas which are scheduled for evacuation?
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot):My officers have within the last few days made a detailed investigation, in conference with representatives of the Tyne-side authorities, into the question of evacuation. The matter is under consideration at the moment and I hope to be able to give a decision in the near future.
  Miss Ward: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask whether he will consult the Lord Privy
  1304
  Seal as to the desirability of regarding Tyneside as one unit?
  Mr. Elliot: I think it is desirable to proceed along the lines which will give satisfactory results.
  Mr. Ede: Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to announce a decision within 14 days?
  Mr. Elliot: I should not like to give a date.
  Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to secure that the water supply and other essential services in the reception areas in Wales under the evacuation scheme will be adequate to the needs of the increased population; and whether he will grant increased financial aid to local authorities in those areas to make those services adequate to the needs?
  Mr. Elliot: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) on 23rd March last.
  Mr. Griffiths: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any resolutions from local authorities in Wales pointing out that their financial resources are not adequate to provide for any such increase in the population?
  Mr. Elliot: I have received representations from authorities in several areas, and I have said in my answer that we shall take steps to avoid areas where insuperable difficulties are likely to arise on account of water supplies and drainage.
  Mr. Crowderasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the difficulties which may arise in regard to building regulations in the transfer of commercial firms in time of war from evacuable areas to emergency houses in outlying districts, he will consider advising local authorities in general that, provided the facilities are reasonable, no unnecessary objections should be made to the adaptation of premises for the purpose required?
  Mr. Elliot: Presumably my hon. Friend has in mind the application under the Public Health Act, 1936, of building bylaws to buildings which undergo structural alteration or change of user. As the by-laws relating to domestic buildings are, in general, stricter than those

  1305
  relating to buildings of the warehouse class, I do not anticipate that difficulties of the kind mentioned will, in practice, arise.

  NATIONAL PLANNING.
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the growing feeling amongst all sections of people that the time has arrived for national planning in order that the resources of the nation can be developed and utilised in accordance with modern requirements; and will he consider the best steps to take to deal with this matter or appoint a select committee to consider and report as soon as possible on the best methods of achieving this object?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether he has had under consideration the most recent measures taken by the German Government in regard to industrial mobilisation, especially as concerns the planning of labour resources; and whether any similar measures are contemplated for this country?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): Questions relating to the development and use of the resources of the country, including all aspects of the problem of labour supply, are under the Government's constant consideration with a view to ensuring that the resources of this country are fully and effectively used. Many of them form the subject of special inquiries and are also the subject matter of much of the legislation which is presented to Parliament. I do not think there is anything to be gained by a general inquiry of the kind which the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. E. Smith) suggests.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: May I ask whether, in these inquiries, the Government accept the point of view that the employment of labour resources must be planned in advance just as thoroughly as we plan for the Fighting Forces?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, I think that is a view which all of us must hold.

  GOVERNMENT BILLS (DRAFTING).
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the Prime Minister whether he will issue a circular to Government Departments calling the attention of all drafting officers, and those
  1306
  concerned in drafting Government Bills, to the necessity for simplicity, in view of some of the complicated Clauses which have appeared in recent Government Bills, which are difficult for hon. Members to understand?
  The Prime Minister: Those concerned in drafting Government Bills and other legislative documents are well aware of the necessity for expressing them in terms which are as simple and intelligible as the subject-matter permits. The subject-matter, however, of most modern legislation is very complex and frequently highly technical. Anyone who has attempted the task of expressing a complicated and technical matter in terms which can have only one meaning, omitting none of the details which make it complicated, will have realised the difficulty, if not impossibility of attaining both simplicity and accuracy
  Mr. De la Bère: Does my right hon. Friend realise the value of the virtue of simplicity; and why do we have so many brackets right and left and muddled words in between? How can hon. Members possibly know what these brackets and muddles mean?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member must exercise his own intelligence.
  Mr. Herbert Morrison: Is the Prime Minister's reference to the difficulty of finding an expression having only one meaning a reference to the difficulties of draftsmen, or a reference to the difficulties of the Government?

  REFUGEES (BRITISH GUIANA).
  Mr. Hannahasked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange to have the Report on British Guiana as a possible home for refugees circulated as a White Paper?
  The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend's suggestion will be considered when the report is received.

  HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "REPULSE."
  Mr. Boothbyasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the arrangement at present proposed for the use of His Majesty's Ship "Repulse"?
  The Prime Minister: On further consideration it has been thought preferable

  1307
  that "Repulse" should not leave European waters. Arrangements have, therefore, already been made that a liner should be available, and it has now been decided that His Majesty should proceed to Canada in Royal Mail Steamer "Empress of Australia."
  Mr. Boothby: May we take it that the "Empress of Australia" will have an escort of warships?
  The Prime Minister: Oh, yes, Sir.
  Commander Marsden: Cannot the Prime Minister endeavour to get a liner which has been built in British shipyards and not one of German construction?
  The Prime Minister: In the circumstances we had to take what liner was available, and I hope it may be some consolation to my hon. and gallant Friend to know that the engines of this ship were built in Glasgow.
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Will the ship be manned by naval ratings or by men of the Merchant Service?

  PACIFIC DEFENCE CONFERENCE.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether he has any information to give the House concerning the work of the Pacific Defence Conference?
  The Prime Minister: I understand the conference held its final meeting yesterday. I have not yet received a report of its proceedings.

  CIVIL DEFENCE REGIONAL COMMISSIONERS.
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Lord Privy Seal what will be the position in time of war of those regional civil defence commissioners now occupied in directing private business or similar undertakings?
  Sir J. Anderson: In time of war regional commissioners would be engaged full-time on their official duties.
  Mr. Bellenger: In view of the fact that these civil commissioners will be paid Government servants, are we to understand that the same rules will apply to them as apply to Cabinet Ministers,
  1308
  namely, that they surrender their directorships in any private business undertakings?
  Sir J. Anderson: I do not think that arises out of the question.
  Mr. Bellenger: In view of the fact that these gentlemen will be holding very important Government appointments, will they divest themselves of all business responsibilities which they now have?
  Sir J. Anderson: I think the same practice will be followed as was followed in the last War, and I would point out that these gentlemen, although their duties will be very onerous and responsible, will not be primarily concerned with policy.
  Mr. Lyons: In view of the very great authority which these gentlemen will exercise in many ways, is it not essential in the national interest that they should be free from any commercial interests of any kind?
  Mr. Sandys: Is it not a fact that in the event of the districts for which they are responsible being separated from the central Government they will exercise all the functions of government?
  Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir, all the executive functions.
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Lord Privy Seal the duties to be assigned to the regional civil defence commissioners in time of war?
  Sir J. Anderson: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister, to a question by the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) on 7th February.
  Mr. Bellenger: What was the guiding principle which induced the right hon. Gentleman to make these appointments? Was any attention paid to the elective principle, in view of the administrative authority which these gentlemen may have to exercise?
  Sir J. Anderson: No attention was paid to the elective principle. We proceeded with the sole object of securing those persons who seemed to us to possess in the highest degree the qualifications necessary for their very responsible position.
  Mr. Mander: How many of these commissioners will be receiving the maximum sum of £2,500 a year?
  Sir J. Anderson: I cannot say at all. There have been no negotiations.

  EDUCATION.

    CAMPS (GRANT).
    Mr. Edeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education when he anticipates being able to announce the Board's decision on the percentage grant to be paid to elementary education authorities who use the camps to be provided under the Camps Bill?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay): As I indicated to the hon. Member last week, this question is at present being sympathetically considered, and I will announce the result as soon as possible.
    Mr. Ede: Will the right hon. Gentle-may say whether that is likely to be before Whitsun?
    Mr. Lindsay: I would not like to give a date.
    Mr. Ede: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is desirable that some announcement should be made before the summer has ended?
    Mr. Lindsay: I think I have indicated that in my first reply.

    SCHOOLS, MAIDSTONE (POLITICAL MEETINGS).
    Mrs. Adamsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the chairman of the Maid-stone Education Committee in prohibiting the letting of schools for political meetings; and by what statutory right did the chairman exercise this power without the approval of the responsible committee of the council?
    Mr. Lindsay: I have no knowledge of the circumstances and I would suggest that, if the chairman of the education committee is thought to have proceeded improperly, the matter should be raised before the committee itself.
    Mrs. Adamson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that application has been made by
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    a political party since the question was put upon the Order Paper, that it has been refused by this gentleman, and that no reason has been given; and is he further aware of the strong feeling of the citizens of Maidstone at the high-handed action of the chairman of the education committee, and will he intimate that he is not prepared to tolerate such suppression of political thought and that it should be discouraged?
    Mr. Lindsay: This is a matter entirely for the local education authority. The Board has no power to intervene.
    Mrs. Adamson: May I point out that the education committee itself has not been consulted and that this is action on the part of the chairman of that committee?
    Mr. Bossom: Is my hon. Friend aware that I have been in that town every day since this question was raised, that I have met thousands of people there and that no word has been expressed in my hearing by way of contradiction or condemnation?
    Mr. Lindsay: It still remains true that this is a matter for the local education authority.

  ESSEX COUNTY COUNCIL.
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Health whether he has considered a resolution submitted from the Brentwood and District Ratepayers' Association, with the support of the Brentwood Urban District Council, containing serious allegations against the Essex County Council and demanding a public inquiry, and the enforcement of measures controlling the function of the county council; and whether he intends to take any action to prevent one local authority attacking another?
  Mr. Elliot: The resolution has been brought to my notice, but the matter is not one in which I have any jurisdiction which would enable me to intervene.
  Mr. Sorensen: Will the right hon. Gentleman do something to prevent this unwarrantable attack on the part of one local authority against another, especially in view of the fact that Democracy is on trial in the world at the present time?
  Mr. Elliot: Surely the hon. Member has just given the answer to his question, which is that this is a democratic country and that you cannot prevent one person attacking another.
  Mr. Sorensen: Will not the right hon. Gentleman get into touch with the urban district council and similar bodies, and deprecate such attacks?
  Mr. Elliot: It would lead me into a very difficult situation if I were to object to an attack by any public body on anybody else.

  MERCANTILE MARINE (CREWS' ACCOMMODATION).
  Mr. Benjamin Smithasked the Minister of Health whether records are kept of the nuisances and defects in crews' accommodation which are not remedied at the port of detection; whether the inspector at the port of detection is notified in cases in which the remedy is effected at a subsequent port of call; and whether particulars of unremedied nuisances and defects are reported to his Department or to some other authority for attention?
  Mr. Elliot: Records of nuisances and defects in crews' accommodation which are not remedied at the port of detection are kept by port health authorities. There is no general requirement as to the notification of unremedied nuisances and defects to subsequent ports of call, but where such a notification is given, I think it would usually be the practice for the medical officer of health of the subsequent port to notify the port of detection of the action taken by him and of its result. Particulars of unremedied nuisances and defects are not reported to my Department or to any other authority except that of a subsequent port of call.
  Mr. Smith: Would the right hon. Gentleman not reverse that process, as it is very easy for ships to be overlooked in any port and not be examined if they have not been reported by another port? Would he reverse the process and ask or instruct the medical officers to report those ships at the various ports of call, as by that means the proper remedies might be made effective?
  Mr. Elliot: The hon. Member has two other questions on the Paper on this subject. As he knows, he and I have been
  1312
  in correspondence on the matter. I will certainly take this question into consideration in the review of the matter which we are having.
  Mr. Smithasked the Minister of Health what arrangements are made in his Department for examining the reports of the medical officers of health and sanitary inspectors of port health districts and acting upon the information and suggestions contained therein?
  Mr. Elliot: The annual reports of the medical officers of health of port health districts (which include the particulars supplied by sanitary inspectors) are examined by officers of my Department. Summaries are made of some of the information contained in the reports, and notes of any exceptional information or suggestions are taken, with a view to appropriate action, which may include in some cases a visit to the port by a medical officer of my Department.
  Mr. Smith: How many such visits have been made on reports arising out of the services of his officers?
  Mr. Elliot: I could not say without notice.
  Mr. Smithasked the Minister of Health what conditions have to be fulfilled before a port medical officer of health can record that a notice to remedy a nuisance or defect in the accommodation for the crew by a vessel has been complied with?
  Mr. Elliot: This is a matter primarily for the judgment of the medical officer of health, but the ordinary practice is to verify by inspection that the nuisance or defect has been remedied.
  Mr. Smith: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if he gave powers of supervision to medical officers of health that would be the best course to take in order to carry out the desire of this country and this House and I believe of the Government.
  Mr. Elliot: These are responsible officers and you must leave something to their judgment.
  Mr. Smith: Surely there must be some over-riding authority for any officer of a Department?
  Mr. Elliot: It would be greatly to the advantage of the subject which the hon. Member and I both have at heart if the

  1313
  hon. Member would have confidence in the Department.
  Mr. Smith: I did have an appointment with the right hon. Gentleman's Department, but illness precluded me from keeping it and I have asked for a further meeting, which I cannot have until 8th May.

  VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS (CIVIL SERVANTS).
  Sir A. Southbyasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to cases of civil servants desirous of entering the voluntary pensions scheme, whose basic salaries are below the qualifying limit of income but who have been compelled to work overtime, the payment for which has temporarily raised their remuneration beyond the limit figure and thereby caused them to be refused admission into the voluntary scheme; and whether, in view of the hardship thus caused, he will consider the possibility of the basic salary only being taken into account when calculating the income of an applicant for entry into the new voluntary insurance scheme?
  Mr. Elliot: I am afraid that I am unable to adopt the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend. Income for the purposes of the Act is required by statutory regulations to be computed in accordance with the provisions of the Income Tax Acts. It would add appreciably to the difficulties of administration if certain items which are included for Income Tax purposes were excluded for the purposes of the scheme. In any event, exceptional treatment on these lines could not be limited to a particular class of applicants. I would point out that failure to satisfy the income test for the standard year does not necessarily involve the rejection of the application. An alternative test on the basis of the average income over the three years ending with the standard year is in certain circumstances available, and in every case the year following the standard year can be selected.
  Sir A. Southby: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many individuals for whom this voluntary scheme was specifically designed are being debarred from entering the scheme by reason of this temporary employment?
  Mr. Elliot: I am afraid that that is so; there always will be some hard cases.

  PROBATIONER NURSES (EXAMINATION FEES).
  66. Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that probationer nurses have to pay £2 each before they can sit for their preliminary examinations, and nearly £4 before they can sit for the final examinations; who receives this money, and why it should be paid by probationer nurses?
  Mr. Elliot: The fees payable are £2 2s. for the preliminary examination, and £3 3s. for the final examination. They are paid to the General Nursing Council, and are used to defray the cost of the examinations. As regards the last part of the question, the hon. Member will be aware that it is usual for students to pay the fees for professional examinations such as these.
  Mr. Batey: Are not these rather heavy fees for young girls to have to pay simply to sit for an examination?
  Mr. Elliot: I do not think they are out of the ordinary for professional examinations.
  Mr. Lipson: Could the Minister give authority to the local authorities to pay out of their grants the fees of probationers in municipal and county hosiptals?
  Mr. Elliot: I am afraid that that does not arise out of the question on the Paper.

  GLAND EXTRACT TREATMENT (FOOTBALL PLAYERS).
  Mr. Lyonsasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that gland extracts from animals are being administered to football players, and particularly to the teams who are to take part in the 1939 Cup Final; and whether he will order an investigation into this practice with a view to ascertaining its effect and repercussions on national health?
  Mr. Elliot: I have no first-hand information on this matter, but the gland extracts concerned are included in the medical pharmacopoeia, and if, as I have reason to believe, they are administered under medical supervision, I do not think that any special investigation is necessary. If, however, there is any specific point which my hon. and learned Friend wishes to bring to my attention, I shall be glad to look into it.
  Mr. Lyons: Does the Ministry of Health endorse or approve of this form of treatment?
  Mr. Elliot: Treatment administered under the supervision of a medical man is not a matter for approval or disapproval by my Department.
  Mr. Shinwell: Could not this gland treatment be administered to members of the Cabinet?
  Mr. Mander: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this treatment is entirely innocuous, that it has been widely administered with beneficial results as regards resistance to disease, and that the clubs concerned would welcome any inquiry that it is thought fit to make?

  HOUSING (BUILDING STANDARDS).
  Mr. Arthur Hendersonasked the Minister of Health what action he proposes to take to deal with the problem of jerrybuilt housing?
  Mr. Elliot: I am considering the matter in the light of the Debate on the Second Reading of the Building Societies Bill.
  Mr. Henderson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he expects to be in a position to make a statement?
  Mr. Elliot: Obviously, the matter will arise on a further stage of the Bill.

  NATIONAL REGISTER.
  Mr. Whiteasked the Minister of Health by whom the work of compiling the National Register will be carried out; and by whom the personnel will be recruited?
  Mr. Elliot: The complete National Register, the preparations for which by means of the census organisation have been undertaken in accordance with the announcement made by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal in December last, will be compiled, when the necessity arises, by the Registrar-General. The engagement of the requisite enumerators has been entrusted to local officers appointed by the Registrar-General, and this is now nearly completed.
  Mr. White: Will it be possible to engage any unemployed people for this work?
  Mr. Elliot: I have no doubt that a number of unemployed persons will be engaged.
  Mr. Maxton: Will it be spare-time employment for persons already employed, or will it be a full-time occupation during the period?
  Mr. Elliot: I could not say off-hand, but I think it is a spare-time occupation.

  NAZI ORGANISATIONS, GREAT BRITAIN.
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that, as a result of the public feeling aroused, the leaders of the German Labour Front and the Germans abroad organisations in this country have instructed their followers to curb their activities for the time being; and whether he is taking the necessary steps to prevent any recrudescence of these activities?
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Samuel Hoare): As I have repeatedly stated, careful watch is kept on the activities of these organisations with a view to appropriate action when necessary.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the fact that these organisations exist for the purpose of carrying on intimidation among German residents in this country, will not the right hon. Gentleman take steps to forbid them altogether?
  Sir S. Hoare: We have already taken some steps. We asked one or two organisers of these organisations to leave the country only a few days ago.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the fact that the German Government have, as a reprisal, sent back three Englishmen, will not the right hon. Gentleman send back the whole of the Nazis?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Attlee: Will the Prime Minister state what will be the business for next week?
The Prime Minister: The business next week will be:
Monday.—Conclusion of the general Debate on the Budget Resolutions.
Tuesday and Wednesday.—Report stage of the Budget Resolutions until

1317
7.30 p.m. on Wednesday. After 7.30 p.m. on Wednesday, Report and Third Reading of the Camps Bill, and of the Limitation Bill [Lords]; consideration of outstanding Import Duties Orders Exemptions No. 4, and Nos. 1 and 2.
Thursday.—First day of Debate on Second Reading of the Military Training Bill.
Friday.—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
On any day, if there is time, other Orders may be taken.
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Prime Minister whether arrangements will be made so that the Limitation Bill will not, as on previous occasions, be taken late, as it is an important matter; and also when the Military Training Bill will be available?
The Prime Minister: With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's first question, I can give him that assurance. As to his second question, we hope to be able to circulate the Bill on Monday evening.
Mr. Attlee: With regard to to-day's business, is it proposed that the House should come to a decision on this important matter after only one day's Debate?
The Prime Minister: I have given further consideration to that suggestion, but I am bound to say that I think it is of national importance that a decision should be arrived at to-night. I do not think that any hardship or injustice would be done by that, because, after all, this is only a preliminary stage; there will be a Debate next week on the Bill itself. As I have already said, the text of the Bill will be issued early in the week, and I have it in mind that the Second Reading should be given two days, though I do not want to take a final decision about that, but would prefer to leave it for further discussion through the usual channels. But there will be ample time for full discussion next week. In view of the considerations which I have mentioned, I think we ought to take a decision to-night.
Mr. Attlee: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that this Debate is an important stage, for we are dealing with the vital principle.
The Prime Minister: Of course, this is not really a stage that is usually debated at all, but it was the general wish of the House, and it seemed to me a proper one, that the discussion should take place as early as possible.
Mr. Sandys: May I ask the Prime Minister when he proposes to bring in the other Bill to which he referred yesterday, for the mobilisation of the Territorials?
The Prime Minister: The Second Reading will come early the week after next.
Mr. Sandys: Does that mean that nothing can be done as regards calling up the Territorials in the meantime?
The Prime Minister: That could be done by Proclamation.
Mr. McGovern: Should not a Bill for the conscription of wealth be introduced before this Bill?

CHAIRMEN'S PANEL.
In pursuance of Standing Order No. 80 (4), Mr. Speaker has nominated Colonel Charles Edward Ponsonby a member of the Chairmen's Panel in the room of Osbert Peake, Esq., resigned.
SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  SCOTTISH STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Colonel Gretton reported from the Committee of Selection; That Mr. Sloan, being a Member representing a Scottish constituency, is added to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills under Standing Order No. 47 (2).
  Report to lie upon the Table.

STANDING ORDERS.
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee:
"That, in the case of the Milford Haven and Tenby Water [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
"That, in the case of the Saint Peter's Chapel, Stockport [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
"That, in the case of the Passenger Transport Board Bill, Petition for additional Provision, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to insert their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill think fit."
"That, in the case of the Barmouth Urban District Council [Lords'], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
Resolutions agreed to.

COMPULSORY MILITARY TRAINING.
3.50 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): I beg to move,
"That this House approves the proposal of His Majesty's Government to introduce as soon as possible a system of compulsory military training as announced on 26th April; regards such a system as necessary for the safety of the country and the fulfilment of the undertakings recently given to certain countries in Europe; and welcomes the fact that the Government is associating with this proposal fresh legislative powers to limit the profits of firms engaged mainly in armament production, and the assurance that, in the event of war, steps will be taken to penalise profiteering and to prevent additions to individual fortunes out of war-created conditions."
This Motion has been put down in order to afford the House an opportunity of discussing, at the earliest possible moment, the statement I made yesterday. The Government are glad to be able to afford this opportunity for consideration of their proposals to supplement our voluntary system of recruiting by a limited and temporary measure of compulsory service. Before I come to the proposals themselves, there are two other matters upon which I would like to say a few words. The first relates to consultation with other parties. No complaint was made yesterday by the Leader of the Opposition; and, indeed, I think perhaps that if I had consulted him beforehand it might have caused him some embarrassment, because I do not imagine he would have wished to share the responsibility of the Government in any way for the introduction of these proposals. But it was raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair). To him I would repeat what I said yesterday, that there was no intention on the part of the Government of deliberately keeping them in the dark, but the pressure under which the Government have been working really did not leave us time for proceedings which otherwise, perhaps, we would have gladly undertaken. We thought it was important that this statement should be made in the course of this week, because if it had been delayed until next week it would almost inevitably have been taken as being in some way related to the speech of the German Chancellor to-morrow. We have, of course, no information as to what the nature of that speech will be, and our action is entirely independent of
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it. That should be made perfectly clear to all the world.
Another matter to which I want now to refer is the pledge which I gave the House, and which was alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. What are the facts about the pledge? It was originally given by my predecessor—Mr. Baldwin, as he then was—on 1st April, 1936, to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern). The hon. Member asked the Prime Minister to
"give a guarantee that a conscription measure will not be introduced so long as peace prevails."
That was answered by the then Prime Minister:
"Yes, Sir, so far as the present Government are concerned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st April, 1936; col. 1992, Vol. 310.]
On 17th February, 1938, after I had become Prime Minister, the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander):
"asked the Prime Minister whether he is able to give an assurance that the pledge given by the late Prime Minister that conscription would not be introduced in peace time by his Government applies equally to the present administration?"
I answered that simply,
"Yes, Sir."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th February, 1938; col. 2057, Vol. 331.]
Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman said that I had renewed that pledge on 29th March last. That was not strictly accurate. What I said on 29th March last did not, as a matter of fact, have any reference to the life of Parliament. What I said was in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wake-field (Mr. Greenwood):
"In reply to his third question, the right hon. Gentleman is quite correct in his assumption that this "—
"this" being my statement, just made, as to the doubling of the Territorial Force—
"is an evidence of the Government's opinion that we have not by any means yet exhausted what can be done by voluntary service, and we shall demonstrate the possibilities of voluntary services to meet all our needs."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th March, 1939; col. 2051, Vol. 345.]
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: Does the right hon. Gentleman not regard that as an understanding which the House took to mean that he reaffirmed the previous statement?
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman may be sure I am not trying

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to shirk anything. I just want to get the facts correct. His question was not an exact repetition of what had been put before. I am not denying, in the least, anything I said then, and I shall have something more to say about it. I want to point out that on the first two occasions to which I have referred conditions were very different from what they are to-day. At neither of those times was war imminent, and I think I may fairly say that there was no question present in the mind of anybody at that time which appeared then likely to lead to war.
Mr. McGovern: Might I remind the Prime Minister that there was another pledge, given at the time of Munich to myself, renewing it?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is perfectly correct. I am referring to the two previous ones. On those occasions the Czecho-Slovak question had not emerged into a prominent position. Although it is true that various countries, including our own, were rearming, yet the rearmament did not reach either the dimensions or the pace which characterises it to-day.
Now we come to the statement I made on 29th March. The question which the right hon. Gentleman opposite put to me was whether it was the Government's intention to maintain the voluntary system as against conscription, and the effect of my answer was "Yes." That truly represented the intentions of the Government at that time. No one in the Government at that time—on 29th March—had any idea that to-day we should be introducing proposals of the kind which I outlined to the House yesterday. We did think at that time—I certainly thought myself, and I think my colleagues thought—that it was possible to meet all our needs by the voluntary system of recruiting, though, no doubt, we all realised that we should have to pursue a vigorous campaign if we were to bring home to the people of the country the need for recruits. Since then I have changed my mind. I hope that everybody is ready to change his mind if circumstances change. Nothing could be more stupid, more likely to lead the country into disaster, than that the Government should refuse to change their mind when changed conditions require it. The fact is that to-day we no longer believe that
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the needs of the country can be met by the voluntary system if that system is to stand alone. I will explain why that is so in a moment or two.
But let me for a moment pause to point out what would be the position if the pledge were to be interpreted as I understand the Leader of the Opposition interpreted it, and if the Government held the view which I have just described. It would mean that we could not take a measure which we believed to be necessary for the safety of the country unless, first of all, we had a General Election. [An HON. MEMBER: "You could change the Government."] I can conceive, of course, that matters might be pushed to such an extremity that this Government would not have any other choice. But surely a very heavy responsibility would rest upon those who forced us to that conclusion at this time, to leave the country in a state of confusion and uncertainty, to postpone for what might be vital weeks those measures that we thought were necessary, to check the output of munitions vital to us at this time, and to distract the attention of those who are responsible for Government Departments to an election—surely that is not a course which could be lightly undertaken.
I am as particular about keeping my word as most hon. Members in this House. I remember being told by one hon. Member who is not a supporter of the Government that I was generally found to be better than my word. That is not a reputation I would desire to jeopardise; but I do feel myself that the times to-day are so different from those which were contemplated when this pledge was formulated, so different even from the period of which the hon. Member just now reminded me, that they constitute altogether a different category, a category which might be described in the words used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), when he quoted yesterday with approval a passage from the "Financial News" describing the present as
"a wholly abnormal period to which neither peace-time nor war-time financial canons applied."
The right hon. Gentleman opposite called that quibbling. I call it common sense. At any rate this pledge, however you interpret it, was a pledge given to

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this House. It is for the House to say whether they feel that they ought to hold me to it or to release me from it. I trust that they will confirm the view which I have expressed as my own, and, if they do, I feel confident that the country will be with them.
Let me say what are the circumstances which have constrained the Government to come to this momentous conclusion that they must supplement in this particular way the voluntary system which in the past has served us well. Surely it is not necessary to remind the House that even since 29th March the situation has radically changed. It was after 29th March that we felt compelled to give that assurance to Poland, that if her independence were threatened and she felt therefore obliged to resist, we should feel obliged to come to her assistance. That assurance to Poland was afterwards followed by similar assurances to two other countries, Greece and Rumania. Is there any hon. Member in this House who does not realise that by those assurances our liabilities were enormously increased? Is there anyone who does not realise that the purposes of those assurances were primarily to prevent war, but that if they were to be effective we must inspire confidence not only in the countries to which we gave them, but throughout Europe, that we meant to carry them through to the end. Too often we have seen doubt cast upon our determination in the past, doubts expressed as to whether we really did mean business when the time came, and right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have themselves on many occasions expressed those doubts. Evidence has been accumulating rapidly in the past week that these doubts were increasing as we were increasing our engagements. That gibe that Britain was "ready to fight to the last French soldier" is one that has been bandied about from capital to capital. It has been becoming clearer and clearer to us that the success of our whole effort to build up a solid front against this idea of domination by force was being jeopardised by these doubts.
I noticed yesterday that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) put a question to me about the number of men who, under our proposals, would be available. I hope I did not do him an injustice, but I thought
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I detected in that question an intention to belittle what the Government were doing. I notice that it is a fixed part of the practice of the right hon. Gentle man to belittle and to pour contempt on everything that this Government does. The further in time the Government gets from the period when he himself was Prime Minister the worse it gets in his estimation. I do not know whether he is going to speak in this Debate. If so, it will be interesting to know whether he is in favour of a larger measure of conscription or whether he is against conscription altogether. I am sure he is "ag' in the Government" whatever they propose. Let me say that in my judgment it is important not to belittle this great departure by this country from one of its most cherished traditions. The party opposite are not belittling it; they are not saying that it is not a matter of the most far-reaching importance. I do not think that anyone can read the papers of this morning, can read the extracts from the foreign Press, without realising that the statement of the Government's intentions has brought confidence, relief and encouragement to all our friends in Europe. I noticed, in particular, a passage in a Communist paper in France. M. Gabriel Péri said—
Mr. Gallacher: I repudiate him right away.
The Prime Minister: M. Gabriel Péri said:
"It is impossible to contest the importance of the British decision. As long as this decision was not taken Britain's promises to Poland, Rumania and Greece were of a more symbolic than practical character."
But it would be a mistake to suppose that although the number of men affected in a single year by our proposals is not large, indeed I might almost say trifling compared with the scale of Continental armies, it would be a mistake to suppose that from the military point of view it is not important. I do not think it would be proper or advisable for me to define what are the gaps in our military defences which this measure will enable us to fill up, but surely anyone can see that to have a certain knowledge that on a definite date a definite number of men will be available who can be trained in a definite time, is of the first importance in planning military operations.
There is another important point which has come home to us in recent weeks

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and which has emerged from the progress of the recruiting campaign for Territorials. I have not any doubt, I never have had any doubt, that in time, by vigorously pursuing that campaign we could get all the Territorials that we wanted, but evidence has come in to us that the recruiting of Territorials is actually being hampered by the consciousness of the unfairness of the system. When an appeal is made for men to come forward and volunteer, the answer has not infrequently been: "I am quite willing to serve my country, but why should I volunteer to take this burden upon my back when there are so many to whom perhaps the sacrifice will be less than it is for me, who are hanging back and who are unwilling to take their share in burdens which ought to be shared by all because the benefits are to be shared by all?" The Government reluctantly came to the conclusion that this measure was necessary, as I have said, for the safety of the country and to ensure the success of the policy which we are pursuing with the approval, and, I might say, the active instigation of the party opposite.
As is pointed out in the Motion, we are associating with this proposal further fresh proposals designed to meet their views, views with which we have every sympathy, that when you ask people to undertake compulsory service you ought not at the same time to permit others, who perhaps do not share in the obligation, to be enriched out of the country's needs. The country is aware that the Government have made persistent and earnest attempts to put into practice these views, but I quite frankly admit that their efforts have not been entirely successful. It has not been for want of getting the best advice we could get. Indeed, experts have exhausted their ingenuity in devising types of contract and methods of costing investigations which were intended to prevent unreasonable profits from being made. But the difficulty has been that conditions have been constantly changing, and, in particular, frequent enlargements of our plans, which, of course, meant a tremendous enlargement of orders which had to be doubled or trebled, have upset the plans and have allowed profits to be made on a scheme which, when it was formulated, seemed to be entirely watertight.
Therefore, we are now proposing to take further steps. My right hon. Friend
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the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech expressed his desire not to retard or hamper the revival in business which is beginning to appear after the recent recession, by taxes which would fall particularly upon industry. I do not imagine that anybody would differ from that view, especially as industry is now subject to Income Tax at a high level and to National Defence Contribution. In the same way, we do not desire to deprive armament firms of reasonable profits, but we do say that it is repugnant to the general sense that profits should be unreasonably swollen. The question of the limitation of profits is one that requires a great deal of study, and there are obvious difficulties to be overcome. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his advisers are now giving particular attention to the devising of the best plans to achieve that purpose, and definite proposals will be laid before Parliament at a very early date.
I said yesterday something about profits in war time. We are not now at war, and I hope we never shall be, but if war should come the Government have stated plainly their view as to the impropriety in war time of such increases in fortunes being made out of the conditions created by war as were seen in the course of the last War. I think it would be generally accepted that when the safety of the lives of the population are at stake, the wealth and resources of individuals must be considered as being held for the common good, and that they should be drawn upon as required. Therefore, I would say now that in the view of the Government if war ever came taxes on the very wealthy, which are already very high, must be further and substantially increased. We feel that profiteering in war time, wherever it can be established, should be subject to special penalties.
In the last War we had to proceed in our endeavours to limit profits by trial and error. We learned by experience, and towards the end of the War we knew what was the best of the ways that had been tried, to use a common phrase, for taking profit out of war. Next time we shall start where we left off, and along with measures which are designed to check and control rises in prices of necessities such as have accompanied all past wars, we intend that a system shall be introduced to deal with all profits

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arising out of war and not merely with profits arising out of armaments. Such measures should be effective in preventing the accumulation of individual fortunes to which I have already referred.
It should be remembered that the changes which are induced by war may alter very materially the relative values of property, and that whereas some may be enriched, others may be impoverished. It is doubtful whether the matter can be dealt with effectively during the progress of the war until the permanent change in values has been established, but I think it is possible that the subject could best be grappled with by a levy on wartime increases of wealth such as was examined by the Select Committee in 1920, but not at that time proceeded with. I want to say again to the House that we are studying this matter further at the present time, so that we can work out a scheme which can without delay be put into operation if ever the occasion should arise.
I want to conclude by making an appeal to the party opposite. I make it whether they are able to heed it or not. I think we fully realise what this word "compulsion" connotes in their minds. They hate it. They have believed, and I dare say do believe now, that once you introduce compulsion it is difficult to stop it. It might spread until it affected every aspect of the national life. The Government, feeling compelled in these difficult and dangerous times to act in this way, have very earnestly endeavoured to try and meet those fears and doubts. This is not a proposal for the substitution of a compulsory system for a voluntary system. It is a limited measure which is designed only to meet immediate and temporary needs. It will be framed specially to emphasise its temporary character, and it will deal only with the numbers of men who are now required. It is specially provided that the men who are affected will not be sent overseas unless and until war breaks out, when, in that respect, they will be in the same position as everybody else. But it is a measure which does offer us a prospect of a steadily increasing body of men, who, if they were called upon to do active service, would have bad the training which is necessary to enable them to use their arms and equipment effectively.
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And let me say this. No one here has any doubt about the patriotism of hon. Members opposite. No one doubts that if we actually had to face war, whatever differences we may have among ourselves about our domestic affairs would be put on one side, and all of us would stand together in the defence of those liberties, and that freedom which are precious to every one of us. I do not want to give the idea that I think that war is imminent—I do not—but I do think we are in a condition when very little weight one way or the other might decide whether war was going to come or not, and I do want to appeal to hon. Members opposite not to be hasty in taking an irrevocable decision, which might create, in quarters where we would not wish it created, a doubt about our determination to play our part to the full in carrying through the policy which they as well as we approve. I would ask them to consult their friends in the country, to make sure before they take a final decision to persist in an opposition which I cannot help thinking is based rather upon views which they have long held, but in very different circumstances from these, and not so much upon the actual proposals that we are putting forward.
For my part, I do not believe that this country has ever been more united in its approval of the stand which the Government are making against the forces of aggression. I do not believe there is any step, whatever the sacrifice might be, that the country is not prepared to take if it felt it necessary to secure the success of that policy.
4.36 p.m.
Mr. Attlee: I beg to move, in line r, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
"whilst prepared to take all necessary steps to provide for the safety of the nation and the fulfilment of its international obligations, this House regrets that His Majesty's Government, in breach of their pledges, should abandon the voluntary principle which has not failed to provide the man-power needed for defence, and is of opinion that the measure proposed is ill-conceived, and. so far from adding materially to the effective defence of the country, will promote division and discourage the national effort, and is further evidence that the Government's conduct of affairs throughout these critical times does not merit the confidence of the country or this House."

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I wish to emphasise the first line of this Amendment:
"whilst prepared to take all necessary steps to provide for the safety of the nation and the fulfilment of its international obligations."
The Prime Minister has made an appeal, and I intend, as I had intended to do at the outset, to make unmistakably plain to everyone in this country, and in other countries, what is the position of this party and just what is the basis of our opposition to these proposals. We are as determined as anybody else to see that the defences of this country are in every way adequate and that Britain is in a position of sufficient strength to fulfil all her obligations, to prevent war, and to defeat aggression if it should arise. The Labour movement has consistently stood against the rule of force in the world—far more consistently than the Government. No section of the country is more firmly resolved to resist any domination, whether by Herr Hitler or by anybody else, and we have been far more conscious of that menace than have the Government. There is no question of the readiness of our people to make sacrifices for the cause of freedom and democracy, but we are opposed to the introduction of conscription because we believe that, so far from strengthening this country, it will weaken it and divide it, at a time when it should be strong and united.
We have not come to our decision lightly. We realise to the full all the dangers of the present time, but we are convinced that the Government's proposals are ill founded and are harmful to this country. We have reason to complain that this grave departure from the established principle of voluntary service should be rushed through this House. Only at the last moment was there any consultation with the trade union leaders, and they hold very strong views on this. In the background of conscription, as every trade unionist knows, there is the danger of industrial conscription. They have been given a definite pledge by the Government, and they have acted on that pledge. They have thrown themselves into the organisation of voluntary service on the strength of that pledge, and now they find themselves thrown over at a moment's notice. Even if this action was right, it has been done in the worst possible way.
I shall examine in a moment the Prime Minister's suggested reasons as to why it
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Measure now, but I will say just a word with regard to the Prime Minister's pledge. However you put it, it is a breach of an undertaking, and we live in days when there are far too many breaches of undertakings, when there are people who hold that pledges that are given under a certain set of circumstances can be disregarded if circumstances change. We are all stressing the need for keeping pledges as a basis for getting any real peace in the world, and it is not a light thing when a pledge like this is thrown aside. I am sorry that the Prime Minister should have tried to introduce that suggestion that there was some difference between a pledge given in peace time and a condition which was not quite war, but was not quite peace. I do not think that was a frank way of meeting the situation. I think the frank way would have been to have come to this House and ask to be absolved, and a still better way would have been to say, "This Government has pledged itself not to do this, and in the circumstances we cannot have an election because of outside circumstances, but we realise that we had better let somebody else carry on the job." That would have been another straightforward way to meet the situation, but to quibble about whether there is war or peace was not, I think, worthy of the Prime Minister of Great Britain. If he claims, as I gather he did yesterday, that the present condition is practically one of war, I would like to say that we have been in that condition for a very long time now, and everybody knows that what has been essentially a war policy has been carried on. But his eyes were not opened to the fact, with the result that every point has been lost in the last few years. I say that it is unfortunate that that departure from his pledge should have been made so hurriedly.
I now come to examine the reasons for this proposal, and the first one put forward was that there was a change of circumstances because we had undertaken certain new obligations. We have undertaken an obligation to Poland, an obligation to Greece, and an obligation to Rumania. Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to mean that with every new obligation we require new forces? Surely, you have also to consider the forces on your own side. From any realistic point

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of view, if war should break out—we all hope it will not—we should be obliged to send certain forces, and should have to estimate those forces, where they could be applied. But we had obligations before this, and it is really ridiculous to suggest that there is a difference now. The second reason that was given is the one put forward much more freely, and that is that we ought to make a gesture, that the whole value of this is a gesture. Some people say that it is to warn potential enemies, others that it is to encourage our friends. The Prime Minister put that point himself. He said it was necessary to reassure our friends that this country was really in earnest. I am afraid that that is necessary, and it is mainly due to the Prime Minister himself. There is a lack of confidence in the Prime Minister and in the inner circle of Minister around him.
It is not that the Prime Minister is following out a steady policy—indeed his policy is constantly changing. But if a gesture was wanted, there is a much more effective gesture which could have been made. The conscription of wealth in a capitalist and class society like our own, would have been a most convincing gesture. It would have had the advantage of giving a reassurance from the very quarter from which it is needed, because foreign workers have no doubt at all about where British workers stand in resisting aggression, and they have no doubt at all about the British workers' devotion to democracy—[HON. MEMBERS: "Blum."]—and they would welcome proof that the wealthy classes in this country were sincerely devoted to those causes. But if you want to make a gesture, you ought to see that that gesture is really going to add to the strength of the country. There may be an offset to that gesture which weakens its effect. There are many people who hold the view that, apart from this question of a gesture, the real pressure in this matter has come from that section which has always been pressing for conscription. They have always advocated it, and they see a golden chance of getting it now.
It is difficult, however, to find any real reason, from the practical point of view, for this proposal of the Government. Let me say that we take no exception to the proposal for changing the procedure for embodying the Territorials. That is merely
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a matter of introducing more effective machinery. I confine myself to the proposal for introducing a measure of compulsory service. The assumption is that the voluntary system has failed to meet our needs. I deny it. I think that in very difficult circumstances it has had a most remarkable success. I wish that its achievements were better known, both in this country and in other countries. The voluntary principle is based on the readiness of the citizens to serve their country, and its effectiveness depends on the people's confidence in their leaders and on the efficiency of governmental machinery. In both those respects the working of the voluntary system has had much to contend with as I shall show. First and foremost, I place the complete distrust with which millions of people regard this Government. They do not believe that it really believes in the things in which they themselves believe. They do not believe that the Prime Minister is really converted to collective security and is standing here for the rule of law against aggression. They have bitter memories of his past actions and speeches. He has not shown himself a friend of democracy. He has assisted in the handing over of free peoples to despotism. All that has had a damping effect on the working of the voluntary system.
Our people will always respond to a moral ideal, but they do not find the expression of their ideals in the Prime Minister and his colleagues. Secondly, they have had bitter experience of the ineptitude and incapacity of this Government. All the newspapers are now pointing out what we were castigated for pointing out a few years ago, namely, the weakening of our strategic position by the inept foreign policy pursued by the Government. They see the result in the piling up of armaments. They realise now what are the results of all that range of actions which started a long way back—Abyssinia and Non-intervention, and all the rest. They have also been deterred by the administrative incompetence of the Government; the refusal to appoint a Minister of Defence, with the result that we get the kind of half-baked proposals which we have before us to-day; the long resistance to and then half-hearted acceptance of a Ministry of Supply; the revelations which we were forced to make on the Floor of the House because private

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representations were of no avail, on the question of our Air Force, and which eventually got rid of the Minister and led to a change; the long neglect of air-raid precautions by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; the delays for days in coming to decisions on vital points; the lack of grip on the economic situation shown by the President of the Board of Trade in answer to questions, and the incapacity of Ministers. Therefore, the people doubt—and this is a very serious doubt—whether if they joined up they would find the equipment adequate. At the back of it all—and we cannot forget this—is the resentment which is felt at the means test and the miseries of unemployment and the existence of poverty in the midst of plenty. It speaks volumes for the spirit of our people that, despite all these depressing circumstances, we have had such a magnificent response to the appeals for voluntary service.
Let us see what has been achieved. There is no difficulty at all in getting voluntary service for the Air Force and the Navy. The Navy is 21,000 over establishment. The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve is full, and recruiting has closed. The Royal Air Force is up to establishment. The 31,600 recruits appealed for in June, 1938, were reached in March, 1939. The Regular Army has been getting up towards establishment. Its progress was held up because of delay in bringing in long overdue reforms, which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State has at last introduced. The Territorial Army had 63,000 recruits last month, and altogether the voluntary effort of this country is on a scale which is not, I think, appreciated abroad. We have under arms or in reserve 1,250,000 men, and that figure is rising to 1,500,000. In addition, there is the tremendous army of volunteers for home defence. The Minister of Labour paid a proper tribute to that effort the other day and told us that there had been a wonderful response. When we have this working of the voluntary system we want to know—and we shall want to know in a great deal more detail than the Prime Minister has given us—what are the technical reasons for the need for compulsory service.
I pause here to note that the arbitrary selection of certain age units really nullifies the contention of the Prime Minister that the great advantage of conscription was that one man would not say, "I am
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taken and another is left." It is still more unfair to call up men of 20 and 21 and to leave men of 22, 23 and 24. One technical reason given was that we must have people to man our anti-aircraft guns. I agree that it is folly to leave the manning of a force which may be required at 10 minutes' notice in the hands of people who have to be called up to take part-time training. We pointed that out year after year without result. But I cannot believe that it is a right allocation of our man-power to use the very young for this purpose. I believe that you could get all the men you want for manning the antiaircraft defences from ex-soldiers and ex-naval ratings who are quite capable of doing the job if you offer them proper conditions, and I hold that ought to have been done.
That, however, is not the main reason for this proposal. The main reason is that these trainees are to form a growing reserve to fill up the ranks of the Army in the event of war. I do not know exactly how many men this will give. I think we ought to have had some figures with this proposal. We had some in the Prime Minister's statement and one knows, roughly, the number of men in the class, but one does not know how many of these have already joined up, or the deductions that must be made for those who will be rejected on physical grounds. But you are going to get a certain recruitment, and I would like to know whether we are in a position to deal with those recruits. In a letter to the "Times" Captain Liddell Hart says:
"Ultimate efficiency is impaired rather than assisted by enlisting men before there is adequate equipment with which to train them."
The real trouble has been that the Secretary of State for War has been hampered all through by the reluctance of the Government to appoint a Minister of Supply. This is a supply difficulty far more than a man-power difficulty, and that problem has not really been reached. I want to know whether we can, as a matter of fact, deal effectively with these recruits. The question here is how to utilise our man-power to the best effect. We have not had any clear indication of what land forces we need. I do not suggest that we can get it exactly, but there is one thing quite clear. This country provides the greatest Fleet in the world. It has a rapidly growing Air Force. It has to provide munitions for them, and will no

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doubt help to provide munitions for its Allies and it cannot, in addition to that, provide a great Continental Army.
I think it is a pity that the Government do not make more widely known the extent of our effort. I am sure we make a great mistake in that respect. I have had some quotations from Continental journals put before me, and I do not think they realise always what we are doing. I do not think they realise what we have done in the past. I know that in the Great War many Frenchmen did not realise what the British Fleet meant. The Germans did, and I hope they do now. We have, therefore, to work out carefully the best way of utilising our resources in men and material, and it is a great mistake to go purely on the number of men. There were some words used by the Secretary of State for War in his speech on the Army Estimates last year "which are worth noting in that connection. He said:
"The strength of the Navy is assessed in Ships and not in personnel, that of the Air Force in squadrons and not in ground staff. Following this line of thought the strength of the modern Army is based, not on the individual but rather on fire units which combine fire power and mobility. Why alone in the Army should heads be counted and fire power and mobility discounted? The number of men required in each unit is the number needed to man and serve the weapons, together with the necessary elements for service, replacement and administration. Every man above this is an additional target and a strain on the service which has to feed and maintain him."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1938; col. 2139, Vol. 332.]
That is a very vital consideration, because the effectiveness of our effort does not depend entirely on the main who is right at the point of attack. It is the number of men and munitions behind him that make him effective. It is not suggested at the moment that we are proposing, as has been suggested, that other people should fight our battles. We can put into the field very formidable land forces, in addition to our Naval and our Air forces, but there is a limit to the amount which we can do effectively. I hold that the voluntary system can provide all the men that we can usefully put into the field, and I do not think the conscriptionist method is the right way for allocating our man-power. It is far more a matter of the planning of our social and industrial structure. The present
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gross inequalities of the standards of life lead to luxury and waste of man-power.
I come to the Prime Minister's suggestions, which he rather optimistically referred to, and somehow connected with the conscription of wealth. He did not deal with conscription of wealth at all, but merely dealt with the possibility of checking profiteering, and I think it is characteristic that he tries to gild the pill of conscription merely with an offer in the future of a promissory note to legislate at an undefined date. There has been a great deal of deterioration in the value of the Government's promissory notes. If you want to get a better allocation of our forces and the strengthening of the country, you want to do it now by repressing unnecessary luxury and utilising the man-power of this country. But the assumption is made that somehow or other conscription is the better way and will give you more men. I beg to doubt that. Sir Auckland Geddes, who, after all, had a great experience in the World War, said:
"With, perhaps, more knowledge than most of the working of conscription in this country, I hold the fully matured opinion that, on balance, the imposition of military conscription added little if anything to the effective sum of our war effort."
We were carried through the greatest strain of the War on voluntary service. I do not think that we have really had an effective appeal yet for voluntary services in this country, and I would ask the Government to make it instead of introducing this provision. The introduction of a limited class of conscripts into the voluntary service will injure the voluntary side of our services. It will not be properly co-ordinated. That, I think, is a gesture—a gesture of throwing a monkey wrench into the machine. Those who support it in many quarters are supporting it because they see in this the first step to far wider conscription, and it is suggested that why trade unionists feel apprehensive is because this may lead on to industrial conscription.
I do not think that the Prime Minister has made out his case. He has not really tried to get the people that he requires by an effective voluntary recruiting drive. I doubt whether he is the man to do it. I do not think that this Measure has been dictated by any real review of the needs of our defences. I think it is partly a gesture and partly the yielding to the

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clamour of the conscriptionists. One of the things that always militates against voluntary effort is the shouting for conscription. I am old enough to remember how the Territorial Army used to be run down by the advocates of conscription.
I am convinced that under the leadership of a Government that understood how to appeal to the deep moral instincts of our people, who do care about these things—freedom and democracy—a Government that had their confidence because they knew that they really believed what they professed, they would show that the voluntary efforts of a free people are far more effective than any regimentation by dictatorships. We oppose this proposal because we think it has not been thought out, that it will not add to the strength of the country and that it will not add to our effective fighting forces, but is far more likely to weaken them.
5.9 p.m.
Sir Archibald Sinclair: It is apparent from the strong and eloquent speeches to which we have just listened from the two right hon. Gentlemen who have preceded me that there are wide differences of opinion in this House on the merits of the proposal the Government have put upon the Order Paper. But, at the same time, any foreigner who believes that there is any real difference in the attitude of Members of all parties in this House on the question of the defence of this country and of peace, freedom and order in the world, will be making a profound mistake. For my own part, I want to say and do nothing which will make more difficult the diligent search which we all ought to pursue for the greatest common measure of agreement and national unity in the serious situation in which our country finds itself to-day.
To my hon. Friends and myself, and indeed to many other hon. Members in the other parts of the House, the essence of the situation in Europe has seemed to be the conflict between law and arbitrary force—"the eternal conflict" as Burke called it. I believe that our generation may yet retrieve the chance to end it. Too long have we truckled to arbitrary force. We have allowed it to grow in power, prestige, self-confidence, acquisitiveness and insolence, and we have impotently watched the decline in the power of law to protect one unhappy victim after another from the
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aggressor. It is clear that the only alternative to the dread choice between war and submission to the aggressor is to build up a solid front of resistance to aggression so clearly invincible that no nation will be able by force to impose its will upon another or to acquire the economic and military resources of a weaker neighbour and to use them to increase its own power, so that every nation will have to submit its grievances and claims to the due processes of law or to the arbitrament of third party judgment. That has been called misty idealism by the so-called realists in His Majesty's Government. Their realism has now proved to be a delusion, and our idealism emerges as the true realism.
This policy is going to be immensely more difficult to practise now than it would have been even a year ago. In the past year our national strength has increased immensely but the strength of the Axis Powers has also been increased, not only by their own national efforts of armament, but also by the acquisition of the territories and the economic resources, military material and strategic positions of whole countries, including advantages of enormous military importance in Central Europe and in Spain. On the other hand, our impotence to prevent successive outrages, our enforced condonation of them, and the erratic course of our foreign policy have undermined the confidence of our friends and stimulated the ambitions and self-confidence of the aggressors.
Of the more distant countries, with, whose destinies ours has been linked by the pressure of events and by the policy which Parliament has approved, suffice it for me to say two things now. First, that I am not surprised to learn that His Majesty's Government "have found it necessary to review the means which they have at their disposal to discharge their new obligations and to impress our friends in Europe with the determination of this country to offer a firm resistance to any attempt at general domination." Secondly, as regards the United States of America and Soviet Russia, I yield to no hon. Member in this House in my desire for the closest possible co-operation between these two great countries and ourselves or in the gratitude which we all feel to President Roosevelt for his inspiring messages and for his well-judged and

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well-timed intervention in the cause of peace and order. As for Soviet Russia, no hon. Member in this House will accuse me of failing to insist, both in season and out of season—and I am afraid that to hon. Members opposite it has generally seemed to be out of season—on the importance of co-operation between our two countries, but anyone is mad who thinks that either President Roosevelt or Mr. Stalin is going to rush in to protect British interests or that the co-operation of Russia is going to make it possible for us to put forward anything less than the greatest effort of which we in this country are capable in the common cause of peace and freedom. Indeed, the only way to attract the sympathy and co-operation of either the American people or the Russian Government is to show our firm resolve to make our maximum contribution to the common interest in resistance to aggression, and to the establishment of peace on the basis of law and justice and of equality both of political status and of economic opportunity for all nations.
As for France, the friendship and alliance between our two countries is, and must remain, the solid core of peace, order and freedom in Europe. At a time when Frenchmen are cheerfully making heavy sacrifices, when large numbers of them are actually mobilised and manning their defences by land and at sea, and when Italian and German propaganda is trying to insinuate that Great Britain is willing to fight, as the Prime Minister has said, to the last Frenchman, and that if war comes it is only French blood which will flow, we must make it clear to Frenchmen that we are willing to make to the common cause, in which the interests we have at stake are just as great as their own, a contribution fully proportionate to our population, our resources and our responsibilities. That is why my hon. Friends and I have voted for every armament Estimate since rearmament began, why we raised that famous Debate in July, 1937, when the demand of this House for measures of protection against air raids first became effective, and why we have for three years been urging, by moving Amendments to the Address and in other ways, the establishment of a Ministry of Supply.
Necessarily the character of the contribution made by our two countries must reflect the differences in their circum-
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stances. In France, as in any continental country, the thought of national danger naturally turns the eyes of the people towards their land frontiers, running invisibly across village streets and separating a peasant from his nearest neighbour. France must protect herself in the air and guard her sea communications, but her main defensive effort must necessarily be made on land. How different is our situation in these islands. It is impossible to invade us so long as we retain command of the seas, and unnecessary to invade us if we lose it. But we present one of the most tempting targets in the world to air attack. Obviously, therefore, our main defensive effort must be made by sea and in the air. But we cannot in the present circumstances be content with that. Partly owing to the short-sightedness of our policy towards Italy and Spain France is now encircled on three frontiers. Our own defences, and those of other nations who are now entitled to look to us for protection, are directly threatened in the Eastern and Western Mediterranean; so, with the support of all parties in this House and in the country. His Majesty's Government are preparing an expeditionary force of 32 divisions—nearly 500,000 men—not to defend France, but to act as a bulwark of freedom in France, or wherever else they maybe required. Nobody doubts that we can get the men. The only doubt is how soon we can equip them.
So I would say to the French: "We want to make the greatest contribution of which we are capable just as we know, you are doing. Our first contribution is the greatest fleet in the world; our second, one of the world's most formidable air forces now rapidly growing in strength; and our third, an expeditionary force of 500,000 men as soon as we can equip them, and behind that force, as the equipment comes in, we must build up reserves, making 1,000,000 men. It is calculated that for every man in the field in a modern, mechanised army, there must be 17 men and women of all ages to equip and maintain them. Behind the Fleet and the Air Force there must be proportionately an even larger army of skilled and unskilled workers. Two million men and women are required for air-raid precautions, but only a small proportion of them are whole-time workers. In addition, in the event of

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war you and our other allies would want to draw on the products of our munition factories, and you would require our assistance in financing your war efforts. "Now I would say," Let us examine together whether there is left over any untapped resource which Great Britain can contribute either in military effort or in any other way to the common cause, "and, so having decided what our contribution is to be, I would add: "but the method of making it is a matter for us, and for nobody else, to decide."
We all know that there are many hon. Members, not only on the opposite side of the House, who believe in compulsory service, and naturally in the present circumstances they are anxious to see it introduced. I recognise their sincerity, and I hope that they will recognise mine when I say that I am firmly convinced of the merits of the voluntary system. I would not argue that it is impossible for a country to adopt compulsory service and remain a democracy. When I look at France, at Belgium and at Switzerland, that argument to me does not seem to make sense; but I do say that a democracy, which cherishes its liberty as the British people do, will not willingly adopt compulsion unless and until the resources of the voluntary system are exhausted. I say that a quicker, a more active, a more united, a more cheerful and, therefore, a more formidable response, can be obtained from a democracy by leadership than by compulsion, and that the voluntary system best accords with the history and the traditions of the British people. The volunteer armies of Great Britain and the British Dominions pitted themselves successfully in the last War against the finest and best equipped conscript armies in Europe. Indeed, it is not necessary for me to argue the merits of the voluntary system or the hatred of the British people for compulsion. It must have been considerations such as these which led Mr. Baldwin to give, and the present Prime Minister to repeat, the famous pledge against the introduction of conscription in peace time during the period of the present Parliament, and even under the proposals of His Majesty's Government our reliance will still be, in the main, on the voluntary system, for the Prime Minister declared yesterday—I quote his own words:
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"The introduction of this measure leaves the voluntary system as the basis of our three Defence Services."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April, 1939, col. 1153, Vol. 346.]
I have most carefully considered the reasons which the Prime Minister has offered for a revision of his pledge against conscription. The first is to impress other nations. I have made one alternative proposal, and I could make others, but I do not wish to delay the House. But I am afraid that, for reasons which I will give later, foreign nations will fail to be impressed by the proposals of His Majesty's Government.
The second reason given by the Prime Minister in his statement yesterday, and repeated by him to-day, is that the voluntary system is unjust. [Interruption.] I know that there are a great many hon. Members who quite sincerely hold that opinion, and I should not be in the least surprised to hear them express their opinion in the course of this Debate; but I am very much surprised to find it expressed in the Prime Minister's statement yesterday. Reasons for this departure from the conscription pledge which are based on expediency I can understand and respect even if I do not agree with them, because circumstances change, and what is inexpedient today may become expedient to-morrow, and even the sacrifice of a principle may be justified in an emergency for the protection of more important principles. But moral values are not susceptible of change, and if in the opinion of the Government, the voluntary system is unjust, His Majesty's Government ought not to have waited until they wanted to impress foreign Powers before changing it. In launching their national appeal a few weeks ago they were either deliberately and unjustly exploiting the patriotic instincts of the volunteers, or this appeal to justice does not now ring true.
The third reason is that certain Territorial and non-regular personnel have been called up to reinforce our system of anti-aircraft defence, and that this service entails a more prolonged sacrifice than was anticipated when they were trained and enrolled. It will be a very prolonged sacrifice if they have to wait until the new conscripts have been enrolled and have completed their training. The Territorials who have been called up should be relieved at frequent intervals by other Territorials. How many men

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are involved? At the most a few thousand; and volunteers for that purpose could be recruited in a week.
The one reason which His Majesty's Government do not give and cannot give for this new departure is that they cannot get the men without conscription. The Leader of the Opposition has given to the House impressive figures of the present numbers of our fighting Forces. I join with him in regretting that greater publicity has not been given to the numbers of men this country has raised, and to the great military effort we have made. I do not believe the people of this country know, I am certain the French do not, and that other foreign countries do not know it. They ought to know that we have raised 2,000,000 men and women for anti-aircraft precautions and 1,250,000 men for the fighting services. That should be known abroad; the Government ought to have told the foreign countries. That is the right counter to the Italian and German propaganda in France.
The men are coming in so fast that they will not be able to equip them for months to come. Criticisms have been made of the half-heartedness of the appeal for recruits, and the handicap it has suffered from the grossly inflated list of reserved occupations. Suggestions were made at the conference at the Ministry of Labour for putting more drive behind the appeal, but they were rejected by Sir Auckland Geddes, who said that if His Majesty's Government put any more drive behind the appeal for volunteers, they would be overwhelmed by the flood of recruits. Why take unwilling men, and incidentally split the country, when you can get, cheerfully and willingly, all, and more than all, the volunteers you can equip?
What is this proposal which is to impress foreign countries with our firm resolve? The Prime Minister chided my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) with deliberately belittling the effort which the Government were proposing to make, but the Prime Minister himself went on to describe the numbers involved as seeming to be trifling when compared with the armies of foreign countries. But, he said, the numbers would steadily increase. Steadily increase over what period of time? We could get the numbers as quickly, and more quickly, by a strong
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appeal for volunteers. The proposal is to conscript only men of 20 years of age. There are 310,000 of them, from which number must be deducted, first, those who are already serving as sailors, soldiers and airmen; secondly, the unfit; thirdly the conscientious objectors; and, fourthly, those who are engaged in reserved occupations. His Majesty's Government, with these great responsibilities which, since 29th March, we have incurred in Poland, Rumania, and Greece, will have, to impress foreign Governments, 200,000 boys of 20, and we are warned in the newspapers that not even that number will be called up at once, and that no doubt it will be a whole year before the 200,000 have been called up. There are to be 200,000 boys of 20 with which to impress the leaders of the great conscript armies of Europe. Even at the present rate of recruiting they would be enrolled in three months by voluntary methods, and much more quickly if a special appeal were made.
Why should the whole burden of compulsion be placed on this one age group? The Prime Minister spoke of the prospective Territorials who have been reported to him to have held back from volunteering because they said it was unfair that other men were not doing their share in the great national effort that was being made. I suppose the Prime Minister meant that if a man working in a bank, with a dozen clerks in the room, found that two or three of them were shirking their responsibilities, he said, "Why should I go?" What difference does this scheme make to that situation? The man will now be able to say, "All the men of 20 are to go." That is the only difference the scheme makes. There will not be any measure of compulsion on any of the men whom the Prime Minister was told such a man had seen shirking their obligations. If I may paraphrase the Prime Minister's statement of yesterday, I would ask, Is there no weakness in a system which allows a man of 35, 30, 25, 23, 22, 21, to devote himself to pleasure or to gain while the man of 20 devotes his leisure and his holidays to training himself to be ready in war to risk his life and the future of his family for his country? Why does it devolve upon the man of 20, and upon him only, to vindicate those eternal principles of justice which the Prime Minister invoked

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in his statement yesterday? If ever circumstances impose upon this country a departure from the voluntary system, let the principle of compulsion be applied generally, and not only to boys of 20.
Finally, I cannot refrain from expressing again my astonishment and regret—to which the Prime Minister referred in his opening remarks this afternoon—that no attempt was made to consult the Leaders of the Opposition parties or the representatives of organised labour before reaching this decision. The right hon. Gentleman made a point of the fact that it was only I who raised the matter yesterday, and I was the more glad to hear the Leader of the Opposition raise it at the beginning of his speech to-day. Yesterday, when I put the point to the Prime Minister, he answered it—and he referred to it again to-day—as though I were complaining that I had not received information about the Government's intentions before they were announced in the House. That is a small point of courtesy with which it would not for one moment have occurred to me to trouble the House. My complaint was that no Member of either the Labour party or the Liberal party, nor as far as I am informed any trade union leader, was consulted before the decision was made. Information given after the decision was made and announced in broad outline on Tuesday to the Press is not consultation. The right hon. Gentleman argued that consultation would necessarily have involved responsibility. I believe that Members of all parties, in this grave situation in which the country is placed at the present time, are prepared to share in the responsibility of leading the country, and indeed, every Member of the House has a great responsibility upon him at the present time; and I cannot help feeling that the reasons which the Prime Minister gave for not consulting the other parties, and in particular representatives of organised labour, were not convincing.
Therefore, it seems to me that His Majesty's Government have failed to justify their grave departure in policy at the present time; that such a departure ought in no circumstances to be made by a Government which is, rightly or wrongly, widely distrusted, and which still excludes from its ranks those of its own supporters who have been consistent
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advocates of the policy which it has belatedly and half-heartedly adopted; that, by failing to consult beforehand the representatives of the other parties and of organised labour, the Government are creating a deep, dangerous and unnecessary cleavage in public opinion; and that their proposals are unjust in their incidence, and so timorous and half-hearted as to be unlikely to serve their main purpose of impressing foreign countries. It is for those reasons that I have tabled an Amendment to the Motion, but to prevent my action from being misinterpreted by anybody in any foreign country, let me make it abundantly clear that it relates only to the specific considerations which I have enumerated, and that it is because I believe that other measures and other men are required to enable this country to make its full contribution towards the construction of a firm bulwark against aggression and towards the preservation of peace in the world.
5.39 p.m.
Mr. Churchill: I was a little disappointed with the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) and the attitude he has felt it his duty to adopt. We have been in very general agreement upon the great steps which have been taken in foreign policy, and I was rather hoping that he would find in this Debate an opportunity for carrying the excellent leadership he has shown in these matters of foreign affairs one step further in the sphere of defence, because certainly no one has been a more strenuous advocate of the enlargement of our responsibilities and of the vigorous championship of our rights and interests than my right hon. Friend, and it is somewhat discouraging to find that at the first really awkward fence, if I may put it in that way, with which he has been confronted, he has found it necessary to take such a very strong attitude of opposition.
However, I must say that this is an occasion when I find it much easier to support the Government's measures than to admire the Government's methods. I can readily understand the complaints of the Opposition parties in view of the pledges that have been given. The Leader of the Opposition made a temperate speech, and certainly I shall do nothing to add to the bitterness, but I never could understand why it was necessary to go on reiterating these pledges

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when events were changing so rapidly. All of these pledges against compulsion were successive deterrents to that process of gathering countries together upon which we were embarking and upon which our hopes were being centred. A more reasonable course, I think, would have been, after Munich, to have introduced a compulsory National Service Register. This would have afforded the opportunity of surveying the whole country, of testing public opinion, and of preparing the public for the use that would be made of the register in an emergency, or as the crisis deepened.
But all this time the Government were arguing against any form of compulsion, and they were teaching their followers to argue against it. Up to a few days ago, we were assured that compulsion was a principle that could not be tolerated. Now, with surprising suddenness—almost overnight—that principle is adopted. Personally, I am very glad that it is adopted, but it is not difficult to see why the Opposition parties have a grievance, and I dare say that even some Members on this side of the House find themselves embarrassed and stultified by the sudden change. Moreover, this reversal does not come alone. I forbear to recapitulate the successive conversions of the last six weeks. Everyone is baffled by the many rapid changes of policy upon fundamental issues. Even when one is in full agreement with those changes, one has an uncomfortable feeling that far-reaching decisions are taken, not after mature planning, but in a hurry, not from design, conviction or forethought, but because of the pressure of events abroad or the pressure of opinion at home. That undoubtedly militates against confidence in His Majesty's Government, which is so necessary now both throughout this country and among our allies.
On the other hand, I am bound to say that I cannot feel that any valid charge can be brought against the Prime Minister on the score of good faith or on the score of his pledges. I will give some reasons if I may. In ordinary circumstances, if everything were safe and sure, the obvious way out of our Parliamentary difficulties would be to have a General Election. That would be the natural course to be taken in these circumstances. A pledge has been given, its fulfilment has been found to be contrary to public inter-
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est as judged by the Government, and unless release is given by the Opposition as well as by the supporters of the Government, an election is the natural step. Such a course would now be attended with the very gravest dangers. It would inflict lasting injury upon our power to cope with our problems. I have no doubt whatever, even if the case were put in the least favourable manner, that on this issue in this crisis the Government would win. But what would happen then? We should have a new Parliament deeply embittered, with a large minority of the nation worked up into violent opposition against the Government on all the issues of foreign policy and defence.
On the other hand, if the Opposition won and they established the principle of no compulsory National Service, I say—make no mistake about it—the whole resistance of Europe to Nazi domination would collapse. All countries, great and small alike, would make the best terms they could with the Nazi Power, and we should be left alone with our great possessions to settle up with the dictators ourselves. The mere process of an election, apart from the arguments which I was very glad to hear the Prime Minister use, would be highly detrimental and dangerous. The election would last more than a month during which, whatever its results, we should be a tempting object of attack. We should all be divided and abusing each other. There is one thing on which you can never have a compromise, namely, which of two gentlemen are to have one seat. All our foes might seize their opportunity, and all our friends would stand wondering what was going to be the result of the poll. Therefore, it seems quite clear—and I was very glad to hear what the Prime Minister said on the point—that a General Election at this time by a Government possessing a large, effective and united majority would be little less than a crime. I am very glad that so far no electioneering threats or talk have been indulged in on either side.
The Prime Minister, whatever his declarations have been, is deprived through external circumstances of the ordinary constitutional methods of escaping from a difficulty of this kind. Therefore, he is bound to act in accordance with what he believes to be the national needs and safety. That is the supreme pledge which is tacitly and unspokenly given by all those who hold

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first office in the State. I should like to point out that, looking back on the past, this is exactly what happened in the Great War. We were all pledged against conscription in the Great War. The most fiery speeches were made by all the Members of that Government before the War and at the election preceding it. I certainly declaimed against it with the utmost vigour. When, however, the crisis of the War was reached and it was found to be absolutely necessary to have conscription, hardly any of the Ministers found the slightest difficulty in voting for it. Nor did Parliament find the slightest difficulty in prolonging its own life. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the Chancellor?"] I am not needlessly enlarging the area of controversy.
Of course, it is said that that was wartime, but I entirely agree with the Prime Minister when he asks: Is this peace? Indeed, it is a war that has been going on, as I think the Leader of the Opposition said, for nearly three years. We have been losing this war. We have had three disastrous campaigns and the battles, the actions of the war, have gone against not only us but against the principles of law and freedom, against the interests of the peaceful and progressive democracies. Those battles already make a long catalogue—the Rhineland Abyssinia, Austria, Munich, Prague, and Albania. [HON. MEMBERS: "And Spain."] That is a matter about which you may certainly say it has been a triumph of the dictatorial Powers. We are all, then, agreed that circumstances—and I am very glad to hear that agreement—are analogous to war actually prevailing, that resort to a General Election is physically and practically impossible, and that, in consequence of that, the Prime Minister had no choice but to do what he considered was the best for the safety of the country. I am certain he will not be reproached in the country or by the great majority of the Members of this House for the step he has taken.
After all, disputes of this kind, and natural misgivings and grievances of this kind, are not the chief thing we have to consider nowadays. They are only a very small part of what we have to face. We have to face the danger in which we stand. We have to face the facts as they really are to-day. We have to find, or try to find, the right course for us to take at this moment in the interests of the nation, and not only in the interests of
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the nation, but in the interests of the common cause. Do not let us forget that we have a common cause. Many differences sunder us, and I make the fullest possible allowance for the pain which this decision has naturally caused to many in the Opposition parties. But the common cause remains and continues. There is a common cause in this House. There is a common cause in Europe. There is a common cause all over the world, and whatever we do, and however we express our sincere conviction on this occasion, we must, above all things, be careful not to fail the common cause. The new policy announced by the Prime Minister a few weeks ago of building up a defensive peace, a bloc of nations all pledged to resist further Nazi aggression against any one of them, and to secure the largest possible measure of collective defence, has been universally accepted by Parliament.
In pursuance of this policy we have recently made a series of tremendous commitments, staggering commitments, and these commitments have been made under conditions, let me remind the House, which, after the destruction of the Czech Army and the capture of the gigantic arsenals of Czecho-Slovakia, have become unfavourable, adverse and hard. Nevertheless, in spite of that, all parties supported the guarantee to Poland and to Greece and the arrangements which are proceeding for an alliance with Turkey. The still more rapidly-decided guarantee to Rumania was equally acclaimed. Also, there are our obligations to France, the keystone of the arch of democratic safety. Besides this there are our self-evident interests in the independence of Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Switzerland. These are, indeed, awful responsibilities for any nation to have assumed, but this House has assumed them with a degree of unanimity I have never seen on any other subject, and that at the time when they knew the full gravity of the consequences of their decision.
It is on that basis that we must consider the step which the Government now ask us to take. I have not until quite lately myself pressed actual military conscription upon His Majesty's Government. I admit I was impressed to some extent by the argument of the danger of splitting the country, and I should have been content with a compulsory National Service Register set up at the proper time

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with a declaration that compulsion would be general on the outbreak of war. But in view of these far-extending commitments, and also in view of the many doubts cast upon the good faith and zeal of our country by German propaganda and the effect which this propaganda was having in other countries, I was sincerely convinced that such steps and such a declaration as I suggested a month ago would no longer suffice and that they have become altogether inadequate.
During the last few days I have seen a good deal of our Rumanian visitors—very fine, earnest men, representatives of a small country. I could not help, as I was talking to them, a feeling coming across me that quite possibly in a few months their old land might be invaded, the institutions of their country overturned, every semblance of sovereignty and freedom robbed from that small State as it has been robbed from Czechoslovakia. I could not help feeling the danger and jeopardy in which they stood. They came here for our advice, seeking our counsel. We have given that advice, and we have given them a promise of aid. I must say, with those emotions in my mind, I feel that an act like that which is proposed, to make a declaration that we will not even keep back this long-cherished principle of voluntary service, is an act which is really wrung from us by the desire not to lead others into the path of danger where we have not the means to follow and aid them ourselves.
Then there is the supreme question of France. Nazi propaganda in France is unceasing. The Prime Minister quoted to us this afternoon one bitter gibe about England fighting to the last French soldier. This kind of propaganda is very dangerous. I remember it was used in Russia before the Revolution. We heard it said then that England would fight to the last Russian soldier. You never know how much mischief can be spread about on those lines. I will take a highly improbable instance so as not to appear to be spreading alarm. Suppose Gibraltar were attacked next week by German ships. France would declare war upon Germany, and her army, comprising 5,000,000 trained men, would be mobilised, and in a very few days 2,000,000 of those men would stand under the fire of the enemy. They would
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be doing that because a British fortress had been attacked. It is true that we simultaneously and similarly would proceed to the aid of France if her territory were the subject of aggression, but we have not got an Army of those numbers which we can set in motion immediately the signal is given One must think of the feelings of the average French soldier, marching with millions of his comrades in what might be a quarrel deliberately fastened on us, picked with us, with the very view of introducing a division between the two countries.
The French do not easily understand that an island people who have not seen the watch-fires of a hostile camp on their soil for nearly a thousand years—excluding invasions from Scotland—have deep prejudices against militarism and are historically attached to the voluntary system. They only see that they would have to stand against the enemy in the front line, under the cannon fire, for many terrible months, while all the time, as they would believe it, because we had not previously taken the step of introducing compulsion, no relief, or very exiguous relief, would be reaching them from these shores. [HON, MEMBERS: "There is our Navy."] I am putting this point because you will find that when a great number of people go into danger they do look around them to try to find out whether everything is fair and square, and although our contribution to any war will be a very great one, it is not of the same kind as would be exacted from the French from the very first day that war began.
A most dangerous attempt is being made to sever the loyalties which unite the two western democracies. It seems to me that Great Britain is at least as dependent upon France as France is dependent upon us. The rise of feeling in France in recent weeks was a fact that no British Government could have afforded to neglect. If the insidious propaganda which is going on were to drive a wedge between Great Britain and France, the ruin of both countries would be speedy and final. It appears to me that the principle of collective security implies an equally loyal self-sacrifice offered by all countries in proportion to their strength and means. The contributions of different countries are not, of course, the same, but they must be equal in quality and in comradeship. These

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considerations apply to every one of the countries that are now linked with us. Moreover, the success of our plan for preventing war depends not only upon rallying many nations to resist aggression but upon obtaining from each of those nations the fullest possible service. Without that there can be no safety.
It seems to me—and this is a point which I would put especially to the Leader of the Liberal party and his friends—that this whole policy of building up a front against aggression might easily have been injured if at this juncture the Government had still refused to take this most necessary step. Indeed, I go further, and I would say that had the Prime Minister allowed himself to be hampered by what he has said in the past he would have failed in his duty, and by failing would have brought us measurably nearer to the danger we seek above all things to avoid. As to the urgency of this, I was very glad to hear the explanation which was given by the Government that it was better that it should be done on its merits as a purely British measure than appear to constitute an after-comment on a speech which is to be delivered.
But I do not attach importance to the speech which is to be delivered tomorrow. If Herr Hitler utters words of menace, that will not make the situation any worse than it appears on the actual facts. If he utters reassurances I, for one, shall not believe them until they are confirmed by deeds. If he utters mere abuse, why should we pay any attention to that? We pay too much attention to the speeches of dictators and give too little study to the marshalling of their forces and the strength of their authority, which is continually going on. No, Sir, the urgency of our decision to-night arises from this fact, that once His Majesty's Government have declared in favour of compulsory service that declaration must be implemented and endorsed by the House of Commons at the earliest possible moment, by the largest possible majority, if it is to gain the acceptance and the useful results for which it is designed. Therefore, it seems to me that to leave it uncertain even over the week-end might have spread doubt and discouragement among those whom we are seeking to influence, and whom in a certain sense we are aspiring to lead.
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This is not the time to debate the details of the Conscription Bill. They will be before us next week. I attach the greatest importance to that Measure as a symbol, and I also have no doubt that it is most useful as a military adjunct to what still remains, upon the whole, a voluntary system. But I must say, so far as we have been informed of the Government's plans, that I am inclined to agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)—I do not know whether the Prime Minister was aware that he was driving away a supporter on this matter: I am looking forward very much to marching through the Lobby this evening with my right hon. Friend on a great issue like this for the defence of the nation—that this plan does seem to be somewhat small for the trouble that it is going to cause. It is certainly too small for the danger we seek to cope with, and not yet proportionate to the part we have decided to play in what I still must call the common cause.
If a country were to adopt conscription in a time of perfect peace, with years of preparation open before it, the calling up of one class of youths of 20 each year for training on Swiss or Swedish militia principles would be a natural, reasonable normal step to take; but that is not our case. We have not made such preparations in the past, and we have not got the time now, when we are face to face with an emergency, to build up annual quotas year by year. Words have ceased to count for some time past. We have now got to the point where gestures, however dramatic and admirable, are not in themselves enough. We do not want only a gesture: we want an Army, and we may want an Army soon. We certainly cannot make an Army out of an undue proportion of youths of 20; and to imagine the British nation can escape from this embarrassment, or that our European problems can be solved by the calling up of 200,000 youths of 20, is a delusion.
It seems to me that several classes should have been included in this Bill. It is true that owing to past delays we have not the weapons or the training facilities for any very large numbers, and, of course, they would only be called up as those became available. Large numbers of the classes that would be liable would be exempted—no, I will not say exempted, because it is a derogatory term

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—I will say excluded from the fighting line because of their requisite indispensable skill in munitions and other vital services. All that would not be an easy task. Well do I remember in the Great War the difficulties we had in restraining the skilled men, and in restraining the miners in particular, from proceeding to the front.
The spirit of this country is great and buoyant. I do not believe that volunteering will be checked by this measure of compulsory service. I agree with the Prime Minister that probably it will receive a stimulus, because, as he said, and everyone knows, there has been an immense amount of talk in the country on these lines: "If they want me they will come for me "—that has been said—"and why should we have it all put upon us while those chaps stand by with their hands in their pockets?" But let me say this of those who stand by, as it is said: believe me those young men who are going to be called up will not object. Those who have conscientious scruples may object, and I agree that those should be respected, but the great mass of these young boys who are to be put into camps in the summer and trained in the Regular Army will think it an honour and a pleasure, and I have not the slightest doubt that the food and the healthy exercise they will get will enable them to go back to the ordinary course of their lives with a far more robust physique.
Therefore, I give my support to this proposal. I remember that when the Great War broke out in 1914 it was a war in which the political leaders had to convince the people that the cause was good. The movement came, as it were, from the thinking classes in society.
Miss Wilkinson: The thinking classes?
Mr. Churchill: They were able to do so. But there is a difference now. Then the cause was explained and the nation accepted the explanation and rallied to the cause. But now the impulse, the main impulse, to resist the Nazi dictatorship principles comes from the mass of the people. I think in every country with which we are associated, in all those European countries—countries trembling on the verge, like Yugoslavia—the drive of the people is strong. It is very often the Governments who are hesitating. Here the spirit of the people has been ahead of the
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Government, and it may even be found to be ahead of Parliament also. There is still time for the countries which are ruled by the dictators to place themselves in harmony with the overwhelming majority of the human race and in harmony with its irresistible forward movement. That must be our hope, and I earnestly hope, although conscientious differences must be expressed, that everything will be done to avoid giving encouragement at this juncture to these dictators, or that they may be led to suppose that we are not ready, with other like-minded States, to go to all lengths in doing our share of the common duty.
The two Bills proposed yesterday by the Prime Minister bring this country for the first time into line, at least in principle, with all the other countries with whom we are acting. They certainly affect the safety of the State. They have a direct influence upon the hopes of maintaining the peace of the world, and it seems to me that anyone who casts his vote against them must do so with grave compunction and sense of responsibility.
6.16 p.m.
Colonel Wedgwood: I think I express the feeling of the whole House when I say that if the speech to which we have just listened had been made by the Prime Minister to-day there would be no Division and we should have seen a united House. I am confident that we are united in this House to-day, and shall remain united whatever be the result of the Division tonight, on our determination, at whatever cost to any principle and to any interest, to stand up to and if necessary to beat Hitler. Everything must give way to that. I suppose I am one of the most extreme individualists in this House. I hate compulsion and I dislike the State, but when it comes to danger to that liberty and justice upon which England is built I would scrap every one of my principles in order to preserve liberty and law in the: world. Inter arma silent leges; when we have our backs to the wall we have to sacrifice all. If the marvellous speech to which we have just listened had been made by the Prime Minister we should have a united House, but we should still have had a poor leader; for our chief difficulty to-day is that, although we are all united, this country is badly led.
Let us consider for a moment what we are supporting to-day, or what our

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Government are supporting and why they are doing it. The Government are introducing compulsion, but that is not going to strengthen our Army one little bit within the next six months, dangerous six months. Our defences will not be improved one jot. The Prime Minister said that recruiting for the Territorial Army was going badly; I should like to know whose fault that is. It is just a week ago yesterday that I was approached by the Lord Lieutenant of my county who had got all the deputy-lieutenants together to start recruiting. They could not start because they had not got the correct papers. We are holding our first recruiting meeting next Sunday, but you have already damned recruiting by bringing in this Measure. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes. You will not get people to join up in the Territorial Army. "There are other methods," they will say; "we need not defend liberty because the Government are going to introduce conscription and everybody will come in in his proper turn." As a matter of fact, the response has been marvellous already, although there has been no organisation behind it at all. I am told there have been 60,000 recruits already enlisted in the last month, although there has been no pressure from anybody. That is as good as we did in the last War.
The scheme now introduced is not primarily in the interests of the defence of this country. It has other quite understandable and good reasons behind it. You have to weigh the position of our allies and you have to remember the attitude in Rumania and Poland, where they say that our promises are all right but how can we implement them? You have the abominable anti-English propaganda going on in France as it did in the last War. This Measure is introduced principally in response to that pressure of public opinion among our allies. I do not think that the people who are pressing for it realise the harm they are doing to the common cause by splitting this country. The introduction of this Measure has given great satisfaction to our allies and I am interested to see that it has annoyed the dictators; at the same time do let us realise the injury that it has done to the cause of Democracy through causing a split which may endure for many years, although we were previously an absolutely united Parliament.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: I have great respect, as I am sure we all have, for the character and spirit of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, but I suggest that while Parliament may be split the country is not split on this matter.
Colonel Wedgwood: I wish you were right. [Interruption.] Unfortunately the split that we have seen here to-day will be worse in the country and not better, and that is the real injury to the cause on which, for a few short months, we were absolutely united. In any case, would it not have been obviously better, if the Government were going to introduce compulsion that they should have in favour of that movement not the vague public opinion of the allied Press but something more substantial? What talks have there been between the staffs? How far do the French general staff want this Measure? Have they pressed for it? Is it simply a matter of public opinion or is it a reasoned argument as to a common plan of action? Above all, in not one of the speeches that I have heard to-day has a word been said about Russia. If we had been told on these benches that the Russian Government wanted conscription here, you would have got the support of the hon. Member who sits above the Gangway.
Mr. Gallacher: I give the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to understand that no matter what happens in any country I will stand by the workers in this country, and oppose conscription and oppose the Prime Minister.
Colonel Wedgwood: I think the workers in this country would think very differently if they knew that Russia wanted this move, but we have not had a word to-day of something which would give infinitely greater security to liberty than any amount of conscription.
Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croft: I apologise for interrupting the right hon. and gallant Gentleman but he has mentioned Russia. May I point out that in Russia they have already accepted this principle?
Colonel Wedgwood: That does not impress me at all, because in Russia they have not liberty. What would impress me and my hon. Friends on these benches much more would be if there had been some beginning of staff talks with the

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Russian fighting forces and if this were part of a concerted plan. In that case we should have a really good argument to use for bringing in conscription. We have no argument except the French Press. Weighing one thing against another, I think the placating of the French Conservative Press is a small matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Blum."] The Conservative papers have been on this tack for the last two or three months now.
Mr. Annesley Somerville: Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman seen the appeal issued by M. Blum to his friends the Socialists in this country?
Colonel Wedgwood: No. I have not seen it, but I know M. Blum's views. As a Frenchman M. Blum wishes that we should bear a larger part in this struggle. M. Blum is not a military man but a civilian. If we had had a plan worked out with the French general staff showing what was wanted from us, that would carry far more weight with me than M. Blum does, much as I love him.
Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case that M. Blum advised the party here to support the policy of non-intervention in Spain?
Colonel Wedgwood: All the history of that matter has yet to be written. I do not believe that M. Blum was ever in favour of the non-intervention policy in Spain. My impression is that M. Blum was forced by his associates in the French Government and by the British Government to take throughout the line he did. The main point I wanted to make was that we have to judge this matter from the point of view of expediency. If it were necessary, in order to satisfy allied opinion, that allied opinion should have been expressed by the general staff in general staff talks between the two fighting forces. It should be shown to the French general staff what England's contribution was going to be—our great Air Force and our Fleet. We cannot go in for everything. Remember that for the first nine months of the War our fighting forces and our Army in France were minute compared with the French fighting forces, but our Fleet was holding the sea and directing the storm. Now we have, in addition to a supreme Fleet, an Air Force incomparably greater than that of France. We are making contributions
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which, if they were put before the French people, would show that we were prepared to do our part. It is true that we should still have to convince Rumania and Poland, but I maintain also that before we took a step solely in order that we might please our allies we should have got, or tried to get, something in exchange for taking that step.
We know that we have a bilateral agreement with Poland, but what is the use to us of that if Poland refuses to allow Russia to co-operate with us or to use its territory? If we are taking this step in order to please our allies, we might have forced Poland to accept the assistance of Russia, and made it a condition that no British Army would go to Poland unless the Russians were allowed to go there too. The same applies to Rumania, Greece and Turkey. Hitherto, our agreements with those countries have been purely unilateral; we have pledged ourselves to defend them, and they have made no offer to defend us. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) has said that, if Gibraltar were attacked, France would immediately declare war. Probably France would. But I have grave doubts whether, if we were attacked, Poland would. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is not a question of doubting their honour. Think of the position in which they are at the present time! If we were attacked, say, in Holland, could we really expect the Polish Army to attack unaided on the Eastern Front? And yet our safeguard is that there should be attacks on the Eastern Front, to occupy the German Army on that side. I am afraid that, unsupported by Russia, it is too much to expect that either Poland, or Bulgaria, or Rumania, or any of these countries will spring to arms if we alone are attacked.
Here was a magnificent opportunity for us to say: "We will adopt conscription in England, we will abolish our age-old habit of voluntary service, on one condition—to get from you a pledge that you will help us," instead of the unilateral pacts that we have with those countries at the present time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not unilateral with Poland."] No, it is a bilateral pact with Poland, but a pact which it is extraordinarily difficult for that country to implement unless it accepts help. For these

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reasons I think that this scheme of conscription, which is introduced to-day in such a hurry, was certainly ill thought out. If it was necessary, I think the approach made to the scheme has been lamentably stupid. I do not bother in the least about pledges; I quite see that the Prime Minister has to change his mind. That does not bother me. But surely a little more tact might have been shown in trying to preserve the unity that has hitherto been maintained in this House on foreign affairs.
Mr. McKie: During the last three years?
Colonel Wedgwood: I would say during the last three months. Prior to that, the Government were wholly on the other side, and all for what is called appeasement. We had unity for a short time, but that unity has been sacrificed, and I am ashamed to say I think it has been sacrificed with great pleasure by the Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] There was not a word in his speech that was calculated in any degree whatever to soothe down the Labour people or get their support for a great cause. How can you expect support from the Opposition benches for this or any Measure when the Government are perpetually showing their own instability on the questions which are exercising our attention at the present moment? Only the other day Sir Nevile Henderson was sent back to Berlin, nobody knows why. The other day there was the question of recognition of the Italian conquest of Albania. To-day no one, however anxious he may be to preserve unity and achieve collective security and a united front against the dictators, can be sure that the Prime Minister of England, the leader of this country, as he should be, knows which way he is going or has made up his mind to go in any particular direction whatever.
These are the difficulties with which we are faced. If we had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping, if we had Mr. Asquith, if we had any of the great leaders of the past in this crisis in which we live to-day, we should be a united House, determined to win for our country and for freedom. Instead of that, we are wandering about not knowing whether we ought to recruit for the Territorial Army, whether we ought to do this or not, or what we shall see when we open our papers every morning. The position was
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well expressed the other day when someone said that people were feeling alternately sick and relieved at what is being done by the present Government. This measure of conscription is too much to expect the House to adopt, at least without a little more preparation than it has had. We require to know what the fighting authorities in the allied countries think, and what they want. We are entitled to know that this will actually strengthen our forces, and that we are not going once more to have Territorials—who, let it be noted, are now enlisted for foreign service—sabotaged in the interests of the Regular Army recruited by compulsion. For all these reasons I think the Government cannot expect this Bill to go through without opposition. But I would warn those people who are our enemies, and who will rejoice to see that it does not go through without opposition—I would warn them that that opposition is rather to the tactics, rather to the methods adopted, and that it does not indicate for one moment any hesitation in our determination to break the rule of the dictators and to establish once more in the world the rule of law.
6.38 p.m.
Mr. Amery: I think we all welcomed the closing words of the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). As for the rest of his speech, and as for the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, I hope I may say without offence that, at a time of such immense gravity, they are making a little too much of the particular methods which have been followed by the Government in bringing forward these proposals to-day. It is, of course, perfectly true that the Prime Minister, almost up to the other day, declared himself opposed to any form of conscription, and I have no doubt sincerely. Other Ministers expressed themselves in the same sense. But I hope that those who are opposed to the Government and who have been opposed to the Prime Minister's policy in the past will at any rate give him credit for sincerity in this matter. As to the picture that the Leader of the Opposition drew of the Prime Minister as a kind of wicked uncle luring the simple babes of the Opposition and the Trades Union Council into the dark wood of conscription, if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite had just a little more imagination, and put themselves more in the

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shoes of the Prime Minister, I think they might realise that they are dealing with a man very much like themselves, and with a Government very much like their own Front Bench.
If I may use the Prime Minister's own phrase, he said that "these proposals had arisen, like other steps in the marshalling of our defences, out of the sequence of events." Some of us might have considerable reason to complain that these proposals have "arisen," and were not foreseen, that they have arisen out of the sequence of events, instead of the Government leading and directing events, that they are not the result of prevision or of definite policy, but the result of events forcing themselves upon the Government, who, to the last moment, tried to avoid facing them, and only swerved from the red light when they were almost up against it. That is the real burden of criticism, and it comes, not only from friends and well-wishers in other countries, but from the great mass of the people of this country.
Frankly, I believe that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite greatly exaggerate the importance that anyone in the country attaches to their criticism of the Government and its efforts in the last few months. The people of this country are much more concerned, as the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme truly said, with gaining the victory for our common cause; they are much more concerned with the necessity of being ready to face the danger; and their one complaint against the Government is that the Government have not foreseen, that they have not been ready, but have always been overtaken by events and driven to action in such haste that, on this particular occasion, they have not even had the time to consult the other side. I venture to think that had right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite been in the position of the present Government, they would probably have done exactly the same sort of thing. They also would have said they were against compulsion, until at the last moment they found they could not do without it. It is not merely other countries whose pressure has influenced the Government. The Prime Minister himself pointed out that it is the response which is given to every recruiting officer throughout the country by the men who say, "Have done with
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all this sham of so-called voluntary recruiting; call us when you want us, and we are willing and ready to come, ready to come in real numbers." More than that, it is also the pressure of sheer military necessity that is forcing itself upon the Government.
I would ask hon. Members opposite to consider this matter for a moment from the point of view of our obligations and of the means that we have to fulfil them. My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) in a speech as convincing as I think it was wise and statesmanlike in its approach, pointed out the tasks and the problems which we have to face, not only in other countries but in our own Empire. Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt—all these are in the gravest peril to-day. Our obligation to France is very different to-day, when France has two, and perhaps three, frontiers to defend. Then there are our obligations to Greece, to Rumania, to Turkey and to Poland. What have we with which to meet those obligations? It is perfectly true that our Navy and our Air Force must count for a great deal in any war. But we can play an effective and conclusive part only if we can at any rate do our share on land. Let us face the facts absolutely frankly. What have we to contribute to the defence of our own territory or of our Allies at the outbreak of a war? We have, as the Secretary of State for War pointed out only the other day, three divisions ready to go abroad more or less at once, another two which might go in a couple of months, and a sixth whose equipment may not be ready until next year. Six divisions at most are all that we shall have available at the beginning of a war to take the field against any enemy.
Colonel Wedgwood: They are all you will have when this Bill is passed.
Mr. Amery: That is all that we have, and it is not enough for any one even of the lesser of the obligations that we have undertaken. Beyond that, we have nothing available at the outbreak of a war, for we must remember that the Territorial Army—and I yield to no one in my admiration of those who are prepared to give voluntary service in their spare time, putting themselves, at any rate, in some measure of preparation for Defence—is, owing to the conditions of

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its service, quite incapable of taking the field at the beginning of a war. The idea that homeopathic doses of training, in the form of a few drills in the evenings and an annual period of a week or two in camp, would give either the individual skill or the collective cohesion that would enable you to put troops into the field is ludicrous. To send the Territorial Army to the front without some months of training after war had broken out would be sheer massacre.
When the Amendments in the names of the two Oppositions talk of our getting sufficient men to-day, they fail entirely to draw any distinction between men who offer to give service and men who are trained. The one thing that this present Measure, limited though it is, will give, is trained men within a very few months. If this Measure is put into operation now, and if we are granted six months of peace, that will give us over 200,000 trained men. What is the total of trained men we have at present? Our six divisions and the trained reserve behind them do not amount to 250,000 men all added together. At the end of six months this Measure, inadequate though it may be, will result in an increase in our total strength of trained men available on the outbreak of war by something like 75 per cent. It is, to that extent, a very real addition. I grant that it is inadequate, but I know very well that it is not easy for the War Office to make arrangements for such an expansion as is required. It is, at any rate, much easier to make it when the men are brought together at the Army centres, with the existing facilities for training and equipment that are there, than to create facilities for training all over the country, as you have to do with the Territorial system.
I hope, most sincerely, that as soon as the War Office gets to work and finds out what it can do in the way of training and equipment it will not stop at calling out one class, but that before the summer is over, if we have peace as long as that, it will call out at least one other class. I also suggest that meanwhile, as far as facilities allow, it might give an opportunity to any others outside the 20–21 age group to take advantage of this six months training if they are willing to do so. That applies not only to the unemployed; there may be many others. It is
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by the standard of training that we must judge our military efforts. The Territorial force has the advantage of a slight preliminary training and the fact that the men have, in effect, pledged themselves in peace-time to be conscripted when war breaks out.
Colonel Wedgwood: They are volunteers, and not pressed men.
Mr. Amery: The men who come forward in a free country in accordance with the laws of their country, freely voted by themselves, are not pressed men. Ask the free burghers of Switzerland whether they are pressed men. Ask the Australians and New Zealanders, who before the late war had been trained under an obligatory system, whether they considered themselves to be pressed men. On the contrary, what prevents people coming forward to-day is the indirect compulsion of economic competition. If you want a trained nation, just as if you want an educated nation, you can bring it about only by a national law. Parents would never have been able to afford to send children to school against the competition of parents who sent them to the factories, without the compulsion of a national law. It is compulsion which alone has given us an educated nation; it is only some measure of compulsion, by a national law, voted by a free people, which will give us a trained nation, trained and fit at the outbreak of war.
The Leader of the Opposition spoke of the numbers we are bringing in by the voluntary system. Let us be frank about that. I pointed out that these numbers, so far as they are not men who enlist for professional service in the Regular forces, are recruited only for a kind of service which is not going to make them ready at the outbreak of war. Even so, we have recruited up to date, including those who were in the Territorials before this crisis began, 250,000 or 260,000 all told. Is that a large proportion? If you take the manhood of military age in this country, and make any exemptions you like for reserved occupations and otherwise, you will have not less than, say, 4,000,000 available. Out of this number, 250,000 represent 6 or 7 per cent. That is not a national response. You can get a national response, either in numbers or in training, only if you have a national law behind it. You may talk about the patriotism

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of the people who will spring to arms when the danger comes; "all England will rise as one man "—and be just about as much use. So much for the point of view of necessity.
I would add one thing more. We are confronted by States which think in terms of total effort, every ounce of the national energy, every man and woman ready to play their part, and taught to play their part before the hour of danger comes. Our friends and allies are also working up to that same level of effort. They cannot understand a country like ours not thinking in terms of total effort. It is true that a large part of our effort may be devoted to our Navy and Air Force; all the more reason why the rest of our nation should be trained to play its part. What really is the principle for which hon. Members opposite stand? Their whole political philosophy has always been on the side of compulsion, in all social reforms and in all other measures. Why should they object to compulsion in training for service to the country for a cause with which they agree?
Mr. Maxton: I heard the right hon. Gentleman appeal to this side. He has not said one word about that question of wealth, with which the Prime Minister dealt at great length but without meeting the case. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us his ideas on the question of compulsorily mobilising the wealth of the nation?
Mr. Amery: I do not wish to delay the House unduly, but I will say a word on that. Is the objection to compulsion merely that it is being proposed in peacetime? I have always understood that every Government in this country since the Great War has accepted the principle that in any major war we must, on the outbreak of war, have a universal obligation to serve. As far as I know, that is accepted as much by the other side of the House as by this side.
Mr. Stephen: Where did you get that idea?
Mr. Amery: I think it is common knowledge. The pledges that the Prime Minister gave referred only to peace-time, and were accepted in that spirit by the House. Is the objection to compulsion as such, or to compulsion in time for
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it to be of use? If it is right to take men compulsorily after war has broken out, in confusion, hurry and panic, why is it wrong to call them out in order, quietly and systematically, and train them so that they may have a chance when war comes of giving that service to their country that they wish to give?
On this question of conscription of wealth I might remind the hon. Member opposite that a Motion in my name dealing with this subject is still on the Order Paper, and the Motion we are discussing to-day has been taken from that, without acknowledgment, in a somewhat amplified form by the Government. I certainly agree wholeheartedly with the view that if it comes to war—[An HON. MEMBER: "Only if it comes to war?"]—I will draw the distinction at once—if it comes to war no one must be entitled to make profit at home out of those who go to the front. That applies not only to capitalists and salary earners, but to wage earners as well. Clearly, when war begins it will be essential to have a stabilisation of wages, salaries and profits. That is the situation in time of war, and on that I am prepared to go to any length to which any hon. Member on either side of the House would be prepared to go.
When it comes to time of peace, what is being asked for from these men is six months' time—and time and money are interchangeable factors. Six months out of a working life is equivalent. I suppose, to an Income Tax of 3d. or 4d. in the £. Those who are earning wealth to-day—the wealthier peoples—are giving anything up to half of their working time to the State. I am not complaining of that; I think it is a good thing; but do not let us exaggerate the idea that giving some short period of time to training for the nation is going to be a revolutionary thing. It is a very small additional thing asked, and asked of everybody.
I earnestly hope that it may be possible for the Opposition to-night at any rate to refrain from casting a vote which will be misunderstood by all our friends and theirs in other countries and will give an unpleasant satisfaction to our opponents. I can picture the sneer on Dr. Goebbels' face when he reads of one great party in the State having marched solidly into the Lobby against this proposal. I am sure that in this matter hon. Members are not expressing the feelings of the great bulk

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of those who in ordinary times support them politically or constitute the strength of the trade unions. I believe that on this issue the nation to-day is far in advance of the Government, and there is no greater mistake that a Government can make—I should like to add that an Opposition can make—than to underrate the patriotism of the British people.
7.1 p.m.
Mr. Hicks: It is with a deep sense of disappointment and profound misgiving that I rise to take part in the Debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) has asked us to look at the facts. I do not know whether he has paid attention to the examination of the facts that the Labour Party have from time to time laid before the House and asked the Government to adopt, but the appeal has fallen on deaf ears. He says he believes that the country is far in advance of the Government. I think we can share some sympathy with that view, but I do not know how we are going to test it. It is extraordinary that hon. Members opposite speak with such unanimity on the question of conscription to-day when only a week or a fortnight ago you would have found as many opinions against as in favour of it. I do not know what facts they have to justify the changeover. I do not know what information is given to Members of the Government party which is denied to us which justifies the change of policy proposed by the Government. I realise the gravity of the decision that the Government have made, and I realise the perilous and alarming state of Europe which has provided the excuse, but it is only an excuse. I have not heard, apart from a platitudinous desire, any statement made here to-day or in private conference which would convince an intelligent body of men that the situation has changed within the last few days sufficiently to justify it.
We are talking to-day about conscripting flesh and blood in peace time and dealing with finance in war time—the limitation of profits of those mainly engaged in munitions. They will be able to establish tribunals to excuse themselves in nearly every case. We say that recruits have come in faster than effective places in the ranks could be found. If there is evidence to contradict that, it is -contrary to all the information given to us in reply to Questions in this House and
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to other inquiries that we have made, certainly much faster than the required equipment could be found. What is it that is proposed now? I do not know, if the Bill be passed, when it is proposed to call the men up, or whether the calling up will be postponed until the equipment is equal to their requirements when they are called up. The fighting services and the Territorials have been augmented to the maximum reasonable capacity. I think that is a statement with which everyone will have to agree. Young men, and middle-aged men and women, have been demonstrating a growing eagerness to give service in response to an appeal which was urged in the national interest and for a national cause.
I should like the House to listen to some of the contributions that the great organised trade union and Labour movement has made to establish local committees, the advice that has been given and the help generally that has been available. I made a speech on 10th March, 1936, on the question of Defence, and was challenged by one of my hon. Friends in regard to the question of the Government effectively consulting with organised labour as to how to carry out their programme. I dealt then with the very delicate instruments which have to be manufactured in order to preserve the lives of those who are asked to engage in battle. Later I went to the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence and solicited his consultation in order to see how far the building industry was able to make a contribution to his requirements. That was readily responded to by the Minister, and the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland also took part in the discussions. As a result there was set up a consultative committee between the various Service Departments, the Treasury and the Ministry of Health, and between employers and operatives, and so efficiently has it worked that I have never heard a single complaint during the whole of the period that the building requirements of the country have not been efficiently carried out. That was done on my initiative in the first instance in order to see how far we were able to co-operate to provide this necessary branch of work.
Later the Prime Minister asked the General Council of the Trades Union Congress to meet him to discuss certain

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points in regard to the way in which the nation should be helped in this matter. The engineering industry had very long consultations after the Prime Minister had met the Trades Union Congress as to what they were prepared to do and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence addressed them, as did also the General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress, Sir Walter Citrine. After much consultation from time to time the Trades Union Congress effected a meeting between the Lord Privy Seal and the Minister of Labour in regard to the later form of Civil Defence. It was very trenchantly asked whether this meant that we were going to continue the voluntary system. The Minister of Labour gave the Trades Union Congress the emphatic assurance, "Yes." The Lord Privy Seal gave the same assurance. We asked not only for that but for a Cabinet assurance that the voluntary system would continue to prevail. That was given without qualification, and from that I made a speech last December urging the importance of the local committees which would be working for recruitment and asking that the Government should agree to set up a national committee which would be able to reveal any inadequacies in any part of the country, to make recommendations to fill any gaps and to prove that the voluntary system could work, as against taking partial evidence that in some parts of the country it might not be successful. The Government agreed to the principle of the national committee. I was appointed from the Trades Union Congress to sit on the National Service Committee, and I am a member of it now. If this proposal for conscription had not been put forward, I should have been speaking at Portsmouth to-night. The Lord Mayor invited me to make a further appeal for recruitment for the services necessary to National Defence after a big demonstration which is taking place tonight.
We circularised the whole of the trade unions after the consultation with the Lord Privy Seal and the Minister of Labour, and the whole of the trade councils throughout the country, and invited them to agree to take part in local organisations to maintain the voluntary system. Some of our trade councils refused to accept our invitation. Overwhelmingly they accepted it, but some refused. What did the trade unions do
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then? They appointed their executive officers to act on local committees in order that the trade unions should not be un-represented when the committees were set up. I say that because of our faith in the voluntary system and our willingness to co-operate and to do everything to make it work. We were under no illusions as to what we meant by collective security. We do not use the term in a light sense. We think we understand what it means, and it may have very heavy and serious consequences. We do not shirk those consequences. We are willing to accept them on the basis of the voluntary system. Many of our officers swallowed many of their past prejudices and gave advice to their members, though it was not too easy for them to pronounce the words after their past platform experience.
Recently, in the building industry again, we have gone to the Lord Privy Seal and undertaken to do all the work in connection with his requirements in regard to defence. The civil engineering employers and the building trade employers, the civil engineering operatives and the building trade operatives have offered the whole of their services to the Department to deal not only with their requirements for shelters, of whatever type, the strutting of basements and, in the event of war, to make good the roads, and to see to the water works and gas works. We are training many hundreds of men in the use of explosives, in the event of bombs dropping on houses and part being demolished and the other part being rendered dangerous, men competent to blow down part of the houses in order to save life without blowing the street down. Hundreds have been trained for that purpose and thousands. are being trained for rescue parties, with a knowledge of the trade and of the materials, so that they may understand how the debris is falling, of what it consists and how it should be approached in order that more people are not injured. That is altogether apart from the rebuilding.
All this voluntary work has been put in. You talk about recruitment. There are a million men available for the Government in that department What contribution would you expect? Do you want those men to be in khaki for them to be able to do the work? That is a necessary part of civil defence. If war broke out

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to-morrow, the whole of the building trade would have to be im-mobilised because of the need for their services. We have taken an inventory of every contractor in the country to find out his resources, what lorries he has, and what other means are available for the purpose of clearing away debris and being able to extricate people who may be beneath it, for the purpose of shoring up and protecting houses and repairing them. All this has been done in a voluntary way with a desire to help the Government and the country in the situation which might arise as the result of war. That is a matter of great importance.
Is that all now jettisoned? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Is the voluntary system to be thrown aside? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Further, is the appeal to reason on behalf of the nation for the sacrifice, which has been met so enthusiastically, no longer of avail? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] You are cutting right across this arrangement. [Interruption.] You cannot explain those niceties to a mass meeting, and it is a very serious position. Is the spirit of the volunteer now beneath the military jack-boot? I cannot think of any other reason for introducing this, apart from the military mind. Whilst they may be very efficient in their own branch of service—though I cannot say that—if they start to enter industry, they are thoroughly incompetent, and disaster would follow in that direction. The old British tradition of freedom has been dealt a severe blow by this proposal for conscription. The Government have decided that young men between 20 and 21 are no longer to have any choice.
Mr. Baxter: I have a great regard for the hon. Member's services, but when he says the young men no longer have any choice, does he infer that they should have a choice?
Mr. Hicks: There is no longer any choice. This is in time of peace. We feel that the decay in general standards of honour in international affairs is producing a similar decay in home standards. The Government might agree to change their policy without consulting their constituents. That is their responsibility, and one which they will have to stand up to at some time, but the trade unions have no intention of being put in that position. They cannot change their policy without
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consulting their constituents. Our Congresses year after year have debated this matter. Those who have followed the debates will know the very great work that has been put in year after year to attune the minds of our members to the importance of the situation of the country and its relation to collective security, and they will know the degree of opposition that has been offered and the debates that have taken place and the great fight that has been put up. We have a body of very intelligent constituents who understand the position as well as we do ourselves and, if we attempt to go back to our constituents and say that the voluntary system remains intact, that conscription is not in substitution of the voluntary system but to supplement the voluntary system, they will tell us to go and wash our brains—and quite right, too. I can assure the House of that. The trade unionists, as represented by the officers with whom we have been able to come in contact, say they have been deceived, and they feel very resentful about it. If I said anything less than that, I should not be respecting their feelings, and it would be misleading to the House if they thought that their feelings would be anything else. Through the National Council of Labour a statement was issued on Tuesday which I should like to read:
"The National Council of Labour at its meeting to-day noted with deep concern statements in the Press that the Cabinet has approved in principle the adoption of conscription. It recalls the Prime Minister's pledge, renewed as recently as 29th March, that the Government would not resort to conscription in peace time. It reminds the nation that the Labour and trade union movement accepted this pledge in good faith and, recognising the vital importance of National Defence, has actively co-operated nationally and locally to ensure success for the voluntary scheme of National Service. It declares that there. is not the slightest evidence of failure of the voluntary system that justifies the renewed clamour for conscription. The Council is convinced that the voluntary scheme is providing, and can continue to provide, the nation with all the manpower required for effective National Defence and for the proper fulfilment of its obligations for mutual assistance in the collective system of resistance to aggression. Proof that this conviction is well founded is afforded by the vast defence power which has already been developed on a voluntary basis and which is rapidly increasing. The Council holds the view that conscription will not effectively increase the defence power of our country but, on the contrary, will introduce undesirable controversy and generate harmful

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disunity at a time when the aggressive dictators should be confronted by a resolute and undivided people. It will also seriously dislocate the economic life of the country. The Council reaffirms its uncompromising opposition to conscription and demands that the Government shall apply itself with energy, confidence and practical determination to the task of developing the organisation of our national resources through the system of voluntary service."
That is a very well considered statement. It was not exaggerated. Much stronger language could have been imported into it but for the fact that we were not anxious to feed our enemies with propaganda. We tried to state, in as measured language as we could possibly conceive, the feelings that we held in regard to the matter. If there was a definite need of more recruits, why were we not told? If the Government wanted half a million instead of 100,000, why did they not come to us and see whether we could get them? We do not believe in giving up the voluntary system until we can see that it has broken down, and we do not believe that it has. We believe that this is ill-considered and is cutting across a good deal of effective and efficient work that was being done to help the country and to prepare it to meet aggression if the occasion should arise. We love our country. Make no mistake about that. The Minister made that observation, and we recognise it and equally return it. I think that Hitler or anyone else would soon discover that if he started to attack this country. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), but he spoke first and stole my thunder. I was going to say I do not know what the Führer will say to-morrow but, if it is belligerent, there will be no war. If it is soft pedalling, look out.
Does anyone think that this will impress or intimidate Germany, or convince any of our potential enemies or allies that we are stronger as the result of the Measure that is proposed? Nothing of the kind. On the contrary, I think it will do much to convince persons of discernment and understanding abroad that Britain is weaker than they suppose. I do not think it will have the effect of making them feel that we shall be stronger. The best fighter is not one who is dragged into the ranks. The experience of the Spanish people and the people of China will give evidence that those who believe in their cause and in what they
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are fighting for are much more efficient than those who are dragooned into it. We say we can provide all the man-power essential for mutual assistance. Conscription is the basis of totalitarianism—of Fascism—and here I should like to quote a statement by Lord Baldwin in Ottawa from the "Times" of the 24th instant. He said:
"The dictators start with solid advantages. They can, by modern mass methods, impose beliefs and demand obedience to a creed which rouses the baser nature of man. If you begin early enough, it is easier to train a race of robots than a race of free men. To act is easier than to reflect. The totalitarian ideal is the mechanical solidarity of the herd under the leadership of a dictator, omnipotent and infallible. The democratic ideal is the moralised solidarity of the group under the leadership of the citizen who is deemed wisest and best, and who can be dismissed."
"Moralised solidarity." How well those words conform to the voluntary system. I endorse every one of them. I sincerely believe that this is a step backward into the bog of waste, of degradation, of militarism, and of barbarism into which Fascism has plunged Europe. I think the Government could reply to the question that has been put as to our commitments in Europe by a statement of the truth of our intensive recruitment and of our defence preparations, which have succeeded out of all proportion to what every one thought, and that, although they have never been thoroughly mobilised. We are told that there is no shortage in the Air Force and none in the Navy, and that recruitment for the Regular Army is proceeding rapidly and is better than most people expected. I think the Government must thoroughly understand the many obligations that these desperate times thrust upon the manpower of this country, but we have to remember that we are a small island country and an intensely industrial country.
I was privileged to serve on a conference, at the invitation of the Lord Privy Seal, to listen to evidence in regard to the type and character of the defence that we could evolve for industry and the civil population in the event of war, and I heard many statements there of a character that impressed me with the importance of our civil defence and the need for speeding it up. I was impressed by the character of the evidence that was given as to what was necessary for us, in this island country of ours, with a

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population of about 46,000,000, to do. We are different in size, different in industry, different in geographical importance from those other countries, and that is a matter that should be taken into serious consideration. The maintenance of the nation's industries and services is basically essential for the life of our people, not only in food production and distribution, transport, water, light, fuel, etc., but the maintenance of production for manufacture for export. The only way in which we shall be able to live in war time, as in peace time, is by exporting goods to be able to pay for the goods that are necessary to come into our country. That is a side of our economic life that has to be understood.
It was said to-day, I think by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party—at any rate, I have read it—that we require something like 15 to 16 men to-day to provide the food, clothing, housing accommodation, and necessary munitions and military equipment to keep one man actively in the field. If it requires that number with a mechanised Army, we have to look around this country and see what our man-power is. If we have a big Navy, a big Army, a big Air Force, and if we have all the other things to do in producing the necessary provisions to enable us to carry on, we have to see that the system is not top-heavy and out of balance, and that we have the necessary number of men in industry to be able to carry on the economic life of the country, not only in its mercantile shipbuilding, but very often perhaps in its battleship building also. I think these are fundamental things that we have not taken into calculation. It is an easy thing to say that we want 200,000 or 300,000 men. What General would ever say he did not want another 250,000 or another 1,000,000 men? Is there any of them, however, who calculate what a finely established balance there is in industry? How many of them examine industry to see how finely it is balanced in its relationship to our economic life? That is not their job, but it is our job in industry to be able to tell them what proportion of this economic life is necessary to keep the country going. There is an enormous and unprecedented production of weapons and engines of war, bombs, guns, tanks, etc., necessary to safeguard the activities essential to our production and to the prosecution of war.
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The Prime Minister's statement will cause a considerable degree of controversy, and I am very sorry it has arisen. I think the country and the organised forces of labour were getting themselves into the state of mind that we had outside our gates a ruthless group of people who respected neither honour nor obligations and who would, with one fell swoop, come down upon us and attack our civilisation, and the country was attuning itself to the mind that there was nothing that you could ask it to do that it would not be perfectly prepared to do to meet that menace. But we believe very definitely in the voluntary system, and we believe that it is a profound mistake to throw this into the arena. We believe that you may get 200,000 or 300,000 men. or even, if necessary, 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 men, but we regret that such a step should have been taken. The trade unionists feel that in this matter they had confidence in the pledge which had been given to them but they feel now that they have been led up the garden, as some of them say, and that they have been betrayed, and they resent it very bitterly. They are unable to give you the authority to proceed with this Measure. They are bound by the decisions to which their Congresses have come from time to time, and before any change in the policy of the trade union movement in this matter can be made, it will be necessary—and it is very likely that it will very soon be done—that the Congress and the executive of the members elected to the Congress will be called and the facts put before them, and their authority will be given to decide their future action.
7.38 p.m.
Mr. Duff Cooper: We all regret, I am sure, that a Division has to be taken in this House this evening. It is too late, of course, to appeal to the leaders of the Opposition to reverse the decision that they have already taken. Personally. I think that if those who will study tomorrow the figures in the Lobby could read also the speeches that have been delivered to-night, the effect of those figures would be far less harmful than I am afraid it is likely to be. We have not heard, even from the benches opposite, any very violent denunciation of the principle of compulsion, which is what we are really discussing. Hon. Members have devoted large portions of their

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speeches to criticism of the Government's foreign policy and of the particular proposals which will form the substance of the Bill to be discussed next week, but they have not, I am glad to say, any of them denounced as unacceptable at all times some measure of conscription.
The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), who has just sat down, delivered a sincere and in some points an impressive speech, but a great deal of it seemed to me to be directed more against than for the argument he was trying to sustain. He told us of all that he and his colleagues and those who work with him in the Trades Union Congress have done, and how far they have succeeded in assisting the Government in carrying out the task of preparation, but if, in spite of all that, the Government are now convinced that that is not sufficient, surely the Government are the people in the best position to know, and surely the very magnitude of the effort that we have made proves the magnitude of the menace which still hangs over us. I think the only point at which the hon. Member went a little too far was when he suggested that the Government were now under the influence of their military advisers, the influence of the jack-boot. I do not think the Prime Minister would ever come under the influence of the jackboot. Certainly, so far as the tenure of office of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War is concerned, I think history shows that the boot has been on the other leg.
But the principle which we are discussing to-night, whether in an emergency we should insist upon every man doing his duty as we consider it necessary for the State, is one on which I should have thought there could be no two opinions in the Labour party, and it seems to me that the Labour party are once again missing one of their great opportunities. I believe, myself, that it is due unfortunately to the influence that is exercised on the party by the Trades Union Congress, and if there were any members of the Carlton Club who showed Leftist tendencies, I think they should be recommended to take a course of Conservatism from the Trades Union Congress. The hon. Member who has just sat down told us that it would be impossible for the Trades Union Congress to alter a decision except at an annual conference.
Mr. Hicks: No. It could do so at a special conference
Mr. Cooper: Well, except at a special conference. That shows that even the machinery of the Trades Union Congress is somewhat unwieldy. The principle of conscription is one which, as the hon. Member for East Woolwich suggested, is not the basis of the totalitarian States. The principle of calling on every man to do his duty in defence of the State is as old as democracy itself. It was revived in Europe by the French Revolution, it was abandoned by the French Government under Napoleon III, the least democratic Government the French have ever had, and it was restored again by the Third Republic. It is a principle which admits and insists upon equality, a principle which is opposed to privilege and favouritism.
The right hon. Gentleman quoted the Prime Minister's statement that it was the injustice of the system which was responsible for the decision that has recently been taken. I think the Prime Minister is correct in saying that the voluntary principle is unjust now, whereas it was not unjust in the past. When we could be satisfied with a very small Territorial Army, we could depend almost entirely on people joining it because they liked soldiering. There is an enormous number of people to whom the military profession appeals, who do not mind giving up a certain number of nights in the year to drilling, and who thoroughly enjoy a fortnight a year in camp. I remember that before the War and before there was a Territorial Army, when I was at school, I joined the Volunteers, but it never occurred to me that I should do so because it was my duty. I am not sure it would have had a great effect upon me if I had thought so. The alternative that presented itself to my mind was whether or not it would be fun. At that time the majority of boys at my school did not join the Volunteers, but I thought that on the whole it might prove amusing, and so I joined. So long as a very small Territorial Army was sufficient, one could rely upon that supply of young men who liked to join, but now hundreds and thousands of young men who do not like drilling at all, who hate to spend a fortnight in camp, who much prefer to spend a large portion if not all of their annual holiday elsewhere, and whose industrial and professional career might be seriously inter-

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fered with by training—hundreds and thousands of them are joining now solely because they think it is their duty, while others, who also may think it is their duty, are not joining. That is why what worked quite justly under the old system has become injustice to-day.
The cry for the conscription of wealth has been raised, as it always is on these occasions, by hon. Members opposite, and I would like to ask what they really mean by the conscription of wealth. Do they mean the confiscation of all private profit? I do not think they do. I maintain that the conscription of wealth, in the sense in which we are asked in this House to approve the principle of conscription, exists to-day. The Government elected by the people have the right—and nobody has ever questioned it—to take any portion of a man's private wealth from him. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us only two days ago the exact proportion of our private wealth which he needed to take this year. The principle exists and is effective. Hon. Members may say that you ought to take a great deal more, but that is simply a question of the administration of the principle. Some hon. Members this evening have suggested that we should make a greater demand on the youth of the country than is being made. Some people think we should start at 18 or 19 years of age and carry on to 22, 23, or 24 years of age. That is a difference of administration, a difference of degree, but not a difference of principle. Equally, whether you should have a tax of 10s. or of 19s. in the £ is a difference of degree, not of principle. The principle of the conscription of wealth in this country exists to-day and has existed for years.
I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) was unable to approve of the Government's proposals to-night. I think he was rather sorry himself, although it seems to me that there is much greater difficulty for the Liberal party than for the Labour party in accepting this interference with individualism. I was not surprised that my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) who, as he said himself, would be prepared to do anything and to swallow any principle in order to defeat the enemy, yet found this an extremely difficult principle to swallow. The Liberal party have long
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stood for individualism, for laissez faire, for Free Trade—all excellent things in their time, for all of which philosophies as philosphies there is a great deal to be said. But they have one thing in common with the late Mr. Gladstone against them, and that is that they are stone dead.
I think the most effective part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland was not that in which he was questioning the principle of compulsion, but that in which he violently attacked the suggestion that it should be limited to men of one age only. I returned only this morning from Paris, and I can assure the House that the effect of the announcement there of this new development in policy was electric. I was addressing the English colony on Monday evening and they all asked me one question. In my speech on Monday evening I was rash enough to say that I was convinced that sooner than any of them expected, compulsion would be adopted in this country. It was adopted on the following day, I got no credit for making that rash, though, as it subsequently proved, true prophesy. They all thought that I was "in the know" and that I had received private information, which, indeed, I had not. But in France there has been going on for many weeks an intensive anti-British campaign. It has always been the policy of Germany, both on the battlefield and in the council chamber, to divide Great Britain from France. It was with that object that she launched her armies in March, 1918, and so nearly achieved it. She has had the same object in mind during March and April, 1939. In 1918 the attack was thrust back and the situation was saved by the promotion of Marshal Foch to the supreme command, and the attack on Great Britain in Paris and throughout France this year, has been defeated by the decision of His Majesty's Government to adopt the compulsory principle.
Preparations are going on very rapidly in France—much more rapidly than we are led to believe by the announcements in the Press. It is not the policy of the French to say too much of what they are doing, but in every household and in every shop you find that things are being delayed, that orders are not being carried out, owing to men—middle-aged men—being called back to the colours for a short period of intensive training. I asked

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whether the men who were called up ever grumbled and I was informed that such was never the case. On the contrary, so my informant said, most of the men look back to their year or two years of military training as the happiest period to their lives. They have left school, they have got away from the tiresome control of the pedagogue, and they have not yet entered on the daily task, on the irksome and responsible and often dreary drudgery of working life. For a year or two they are carefree. They are associated with men of their own age, all on the thresh-hold of their careers. When the short day's duty is done, they are free to amuse themselves as they wish and when, in after years, they are called up for a week or two, they go back from their work and sometimes from their homes, with considerable relief. They look forward to recapturing for a short period what to some, in a more fortunate existence, is the freedom of university life, which many people would like to recapture if it were possible.
This, as has been explained by the Prime Minister, is only to be a temporary measure. Whether it proves temporary or not, I cannot say that I share the fears which have been expressed of its eventually becoming a part of our national life. I think in all the great democracies of the world where it exists, it is a useful force. A year's health and training and camaraderie, with the complete extinction of all class differences during that period, works in the long run for the good of the community. I believe that this temporary measure which has been forced upon us by a terrible emergency, may prove, in the end, a source of health to our manhood and enjoyment to our people and a bridge over those divisions of class which cause so much ill-will, and have caused so much ill-will in the past, and that it will prove, as it has in those other countries, a sound foundation and backbone of democracy.
7.52 p.m.
Mr. Stephen: I think that there is agreement that no one should say or do anything which would bring comfort to the leaders in Germany. There is a common feeling, I believe, that no word or action in this House should bring comfort to Hitler. While I join in that sentiment, I become more and more convinced that
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there is a great deal of comfort to Hitler in the announcement by the Government of their plans regarding conscription. The Government, somehow or other, have been led to take this decision in spite of the pledge of the Prime Minister, and the Government's proposals can provoke only derision among people with any military knowledge in the countries concerned. With regard to the pledge of the Prime Minister, I would say that it provides Hitler with a very fine answer to the common accusation against him that his pledges are not to be trusted. An answer to that charge has been provided for him by the Prime Minister of Britain who has broken his pledge in relation to conscription. The right hon. Gentleman says that circumstances have changed, but that is exactly what the Führer says when he takes a new step. He always says that he was willing to keep his pledge until world circumstances changed and made it impossible for him to do so. Is not that exactly what the Prime Minister has done in this case? I would refer to the question which was put by my hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) to the Prime Minister on 6th October last year. I quote from the Official Report:
"Mr. McGovern (by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he can give an assurance that the Government will continue to honour the pledges given in answer to previous questions, namely, that no measure of conscription or compulsory national service will be introduced?
The Prime Minister: I have previously stated that conscription or compulsory national service will not be introduced by this Government in peace time and that statement still holds good.
Mr. Amery: In that case, would it not be desirable to have a change of Government, in order to make it possible to introduce this necessary Measure?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th October, 1938; col. 474, Vol. 339.]
The Prime Minister might have come to the House to-day and said frankly: "I have broken my pledge because of changed circumstances and because of the-pressures that have been put upon me by the new circumstances since last October." But to fumble about as he did, and to try to persuade us that he was not breaking the specific pledge which he gave in October is merely to mislead the House and is not calculated to give any comfort or confidence to the people of this country as regards any further assurances which he may give in the future. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr.

1409
Churchill) naturally was quite satisfied that the Prime Minister should have broken that pledge. But had it been a pledge by the Prime Minister which the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to see maintained, I am sure the House would have been delighted with the eloquence of his denunciation of the Prime Minister as a perjured individual and one who had broken his word. I can imagine the fine phrases which the right hon. Gentleman would have produced with regard to the false and forsworn Prime Minister and all the rest of it.
The right hon. Gentleman said that one of the ways in which the Prime Minister could have dealt with the situation was by having a General Election, but that in view of the circumstances of the country and the international situation a General Election could not be contemplated. There is, however, another possibility. There is the possibility of taking a referendum of the people on this matter. I recall, that a referendum on the question of conscription was taken by the Australian Government during the last War, and it resulted in the defeat of the proposal to make military service compulsory in Australia. I believe the same thing would happen again. It is utter humbug for hon. Members opposite to tell us how sure they are that the country is in favour of the introduction of the compulsory principle.
I wonder whether hon. Members above the Gangway have been as amused as I have been at the expert knowledge which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's (Mr. Duff Cooper), the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) and other hon. Members opposite have shown of the trade union movement, and their claim to know the real opinion of the trade unionists of the country as compared, say, with the opinions expressed by the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks). They assume that they know more about trade union opinion than the trade union leaders. It is ridiculous for right hon. Members opposite to try to put across such statements. They do not know anything about the views of the trade unionists of the country on this question. It is true that a Conservative Member came to me yesterday and told me that he had been down to his works, and that the fellows there were delighted about
1410
this. Whether he expected me to believe that or not, I do not know, but I venture to say that, when the Bill passes and the Act comes into operation, Members on the opposite side of the House will find that, in that part of the country with which I am concerned—Glasgow and the West of Scotland—the Measure will meet with the utmost hostility. I shall not in the least be surprised to find great industrial trouble on the Clyde when the attempt is made to put conscription into operation on Clydeside. I do not think that you will get the young men in Glasgow to join up, whatever Act of Parliament this House may pass in this connection.
Mr. McKie: Does not the hon. Member think that there is the greatest likelihood of the industrial section of the West of Scotland taking the same practical view of this matter as they took of the financial crisis of 1931?
Mr. Stephen: The fact of the matter is that in Glasgow there was a very large opinion against the National Government in spite of the demoralisation that took place in the Labour party owing to the treachery of the leader of the Labour party and the extraordinary circumstances that resulted during that period of crisis.
Mr. McKie: I was dealing with the question of the Election.
Mr. Stephen: If that is the view of the Government, then let the Government try it out. If the Government and Members opposite had real confidence in the suggestion put forward by the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie), I am quite sure that they would go to the country on this issue. The refusal of a General Election is due to the fact that they have. no confidence in the possibility of victory, none whatever. This question was very much to the fore in South Ayrshire. It was the one question that the Conservative candidate was pushing all the time. It was a real jingo by-election, and in spite of the fact that we had a new candidate, and hon. Members all said what a tremendous influence the late Mr. Brown himself must have had in that division owing to so many of his own personal qualities, the new Member has come into this House with an increased majority, showing plainly that in that part of Scotland there is no belief in this Government

1411
or in the policy of conscription that the Government axe introducing at the present time. We have to realise the fact that the Government in this way are giving to Hitler the answer to all the criticism that has been made of Hitler that he is a man who is always breaking his word. He is entitled to say that the Prime Minister has himself broken his word and is now imposing conscription on his own people.
What is going to be the effect of this proposal on the country? Is it going to have the effect of adding to the military and the economic strength of the country in the circumstances in which the country is placed at the present time? It will have the exact opposite effect. Those of us who heard the speech of the hon. Member for East Woolwich must realise that the country is going to be divided completely on this question and that, so far from the resources of the country being more adequately organised in the future by means of this Measure, we are going to have a great division in the country. Personally, I may not be very much concerned about that because in this Debate I want to make this point. One speaker after another, from the Prime Minister onwards, has said that there is unanimity in this House in the acceptance of the new liabilities with regard to Poland, Greece and Rumania. I have already protested in this House about this statement coming especially from the Treasury Bench. Members of my party in the House are opposed, and have stated that they are opposed, to the acceptance of these new responsibilities, and there are Members of the Labour party who are in full agreement with the Members of the Independent Labour party in this connection. It is simply a deliberate attempt to mislead the country in trying to create the impression that there was no opposition in the House of Commons to the acceptance of these responsibilities by the Government. I am sorry that the Prime Minister is not in the House at present, but I hope that the Chancellor of the Duchy will make it plain to him that we feel very aggrieved indeed at the way in which the Prime Minister and other Members of the Government try to mislead the country by stating that there is unanimity in this House on so many of these questions.
I want, however, to say a few words about the other aspect—that of the conscription of wealth. The right hon.
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Gentleman the Member for St George's asked what we meant by the conscription of wealth, and he proceeded to say that they had that already, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer could bring forward proposals which could be put upon the Statute Book and the wealthy could be taxed 20s. in the £. I regret that the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) is not here. He would have laughed very hearily at that statement of the right hon. Gentleman. We recall what took place when the land taxes were being put upon the Statute Book, and the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the House of Commons in that connection is known to all. I want to try to give Members some idea of what we really have in mind when we talk about the conscription of wealth. When I came to the House to-day I passed the Home for Waifs and Strays, and I noticed on their notice board that they took in four additional children every day. They have 4,000 waifs and strays, and they provide about 15,000 meals a day. That is one part of the case.
Hon. Members have been talking about the effect of conscription. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping said that young fellows who came into the Services, after a short time, became well-nourished and fit. Unfit, badly nourished men are going to have the advantage of this training, to be fed and clothed and given the possibility of a good life. The other side to that is that they have not had in this country adequate food, clothing and shelter, and have not had that opportunity of exercise and fresh air. The Access to Mountains Bill was considered in this House last Friday. That Bill was so mutilated in Committee that I myself stated that I was only willing to let it go through because it did not apply to Scotland. It was absolutely mutilated in Committee, so that access to mountains is only to be granted to the people of this country on the most limited terms.
On the evening of Budget Day my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) made a most moving appeal on behalf of the old age pensioners of this country who are living on a miserable 10s. a week at 65. There are many anomalies in connection with the scheme of old age pensions, and there is not the slightest possibility of any attempt being made by the

1413
Government to provide any satisfaction for the needs of all these pensioners in the country. Members in all parts of the House will no doubt have had the same experience as myself. Every week letters come telling about the pitiful position of men who gave their services in the last War and who are now the victims of bronchitis and other pulmonary troubles and are denied pensions by the Government, because some doctors cannot trace an absolute mathematical connection between their service and their present pulmonary trouble. There are also 2,000,000 people unemployed and living under miserable conditions. The Minister of Labour asked us to remember that they are not always the same 2,000,000, and I agree. It only makes the position worse, because it means that there are about 6,000,000 people who, during the course of the 12 months, experience a period of several weeks or months of unemployment, and the consequent poverty, insecurity and unhappiness that it brings with it.
That is one side of the question. I have given a list of some of the things that came into my mind. On the other hand, I remember that a few months ago a member of the Government died, and we found in the newspapers afterwards that he had left a fortune of about £3,000,000. I refer to the late Lord Stanley. He has left a fortune of £3,000,000 at a time when millions of people are having to live on 10s. a week. Yet the Prime Minister has the audacity to say that wealth is very largely conscripted already, and that Income Tax, Surtax, and Estate Duty are at a high level. The right hon. Gentleman asked what we mean by conscription of wealth? I mean taking the millions from people like the late Lord Stanley and putting them into the control and ownership of the people. Let me put it in another way. If hon. Members opposite are realists, there will be no great difficulty in finding out what we mean by the conscription of wealth. We mean the socialisation of the land and the means of production, distribution and exchange. You are going to take compulsorily these young men of 20 to 21 from their homes, many of them the sons of old age pensioners living in poverty, and many of them the sons of those who are on the means test and being denied social justice. You are going to put them into the Army
1414
in order to provide forces to protect the millionaires of this country. I say it is a shameful and preposterous suggestion of the Government.
We have heard a lot of talk about not doing or saying anything which will bring comfort to Hitler. The Government bring comfort to Hitler and to Mussolini all the time by the way they starve the working classes of this country and refuse to give them the opportunity of a decent standard of life. The Government bring comfort to Hitler and Mussolini by the way they continue to oppress our people in the Colonial parts of the Empire and in India. You talk about public opinion in France and how there has been such a tremendous wave of enthusiasm because the British Government are adopting this policy. The friends of the right hon. Gentleman are not my friends in France. I have also been on the Continent and I find many people who have a most bitter resentment at the way in which the ruling classes of Britain use our great Empire for their own advantage or for the advantage of a small section of the community. Do not think that the exploitation of British Imperialism throughout the world is regarded with affection on the Continent, because it is not true. The working classes in other countries do not trust the rulers in Britain, and the strength of Hitler and Mussolini at the present time is that the working classes in Germany and Italy are not prepared to be used to further the interest of British Imperialism.
We had a crisis in September and the Prime Minister went to Munich to try a policy of appeasement. He was conscious of the magnitude of the slaughter which would be involved in another war, and he was able to come to an arrangement and come home convinced that he had achieved much by meeting Hitler and getting him to agree upon a policy of peace. But what did he do after that? He sat still. He was more concerned about getting on with the rearmament programme, building up the British forces, creating the impression that Britain had but a certain period of time in which to be able to strengthen our forces of Defence and make ourselves much stronger. Naturally the policy which had been applied for a matter of ten days during the crisis gave way, and it was followed by the rape of the remnant of Czecho-Slovakia. The Prime Minister

1415
then adopted another policy. He made a speech at Birmingham in which he said he had been wounded to the heart by the way Hitler had broken his word. It was not enough to realise the magnitude of the slaughter which would be involved in another war and then forget about it, and allow a continuance of the economic circumstances which produce these crises from time to time.
Here we are faced with the Motion asking the House of Commons to impose compulsory military service upon decent working young fellows. It will bring sadness and dismay into many hundreds of thousands of homes in Great Britain. It is going to fill the hearts of the mothers of Britain with the most intense indignation. There is no need for it whatever, and I hope that the working classes of this country will refuse to become cannon fodder and fight the battles of the ruling classes of this country who themselves are not prepared to give up any of their privileges. Will all this talk about equality of sacrifice there is not an hon. Member of this House who will go without anything which is necessary for his happiness as a consequence of the crisis through which we have passed. Now you are asking sacrifices from the working classes. I believe this policy will in the end prove fatal to the Government and to the whole system for which the Government stands; a system of the exploitation of the workers of this and other lands.
8.23 p.m.
Mr. Dodd: I not want to be drawn into the arguments which the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) has used, but he commenced his speech by referring to the pledge which has been given by the Prime Minister. I think the pledge can be released by a Vote of this House, or, better still, by no vote at all.
Mr. Maxton:Does the hon. Member think that if we cast a vote here to-night, all of us being over 21, we can relieve the Prime Minister of a pledge which affects 350,000 young men of 20 and 21 years of age?
Mr. Dodd: I am going to deal with that point. There are occasions when this House rises to its responsibilities and great speeches are made. To-day we have listened to several very fine speeches, and
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I hesitate, in the short experience I have, to take part in a Debate of this character, but I feel that I can make a contribution, and I hope the House will listen to the remarks I have to make. I cannot agree in any way with what the hon. Member for Camlachlie has said. I do not believe there is such disagreement in the country as he has suggested. It may be the case in certain parts of Clydeside, but that does not say that it is the case everywhere else. He discussed the problem of poverty and wealth, and I propose to deal with that in my speech. We have listened to speeches from both sides of the House showing how we have arrived at the present position. We know it all too well. We had one speech from the Opposition benches which, I think, was a great contribution to the Debate, it was the speech of the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. G. Hicks), and having regard to the position he occupies in his organisation, his speech is entitled to very great weight. I think the House is under an obligation to the hon. Member for the manner in which he detailed what has been done, unknown to many, by the members of the Trades Union Congress and by trades unions during the last two or three years. That is not sufficiently widely known, and if it were known in this country and abroad, there would be a greater appreciation of that work than there is. Nobody doubted the hon. Member's sincerity when he explained his own feelings on the question of compulsory service. For the past few months, I have sat with him on the Central National Service Committee, and I know how much he and other hon. Members opposite, have done in the way of addressing meetings throughout the country in order to try to build up a large force on the voluntary National Service basis.
But I could not understand the hon. Member when he made the point that this new Measure cuts out voluntary National Service. It does not do that in any way. If hon. Members opposite have doubts as to whether we can still continue with it, let me say that my opinion definitely is that we can. There is nothing in the new Measure that will interfere in any way with recruitment for the different voluntary services. I think that the hon. Member held out what may be a very important hope when he enlarged on the constitution of the Trades

1417
Union Congress and the fact that a vote had to be taken from members throughout the country. If I could read into his thoughts, it seems to me that he gave some slight indication perhaps that he at any rate has not the grave misgivings with regard to compulsory service that may be shared by some of his colleagues opposite.
Mr. Ridley: I feel sure that if the hon. Member took that view, he would be doing my hon. Friend a very great injustice.
Mr. Dodd: I am sorry that the hon. Member for East Woolwich is not in the House at the moment, and cannot reply himself, but that was the impression which I gathered in listening to him. It may be that I am wrong. However, I was interested to hear the views of the hon. Member, since he represents the very large organisation of the Trades Union Congress. I wonder how many hon. Members know the feelings that exist at the present time among many employers' organisations. There is, throughout the country, a growing feeling, which has been thrown up from below, that this is a Measure which sooner or later had to be introduced, and the sooner the better; and there is among some of the trades unions and among the employers' organisations a very strong feeling that something of this character is absolutely essential.
Last week, at a meeting of representatives of chambers of commerce, a resolution was carried, with very few dissentients, calling upon the Government to introduce a compulsory National Register at the earliest opportunity for the purpose of bringing together all the resources of the country in every form. Man-power, wealth—the whole mass of the resources of the country—will be called into play if war should come. We want to be prepared and to know where we stand. There is a vast difference between compulsory National Service, compulsory Military Service, voluntary National Service, a voluntary National Register, and a compulsory National Register. In my view, a compulsory National Register is absolutely imperative, and can be the only thing which is complete and absolute. There is nothing in what is proposed to-day that overrides voluntary National Service in every other Service except the Territorial Army.
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I should like to say a few words on the matter of national resources. We discussed across the Floor of the House wealth and poverty, putting one against the other, discussing what a man has, what he draws per week and what he gives away, but those are matters of infinitesimal importance when it comes to a national crisis and a war. Provided the country has food to feed the people at home and to keep an army in the field and a fleet at sea, provided houses have roofs—which they might not have—provided people have somewhere to sleep and something with which to cover their bodies, wealth means nothing in a national crisis and in war as it is fought in these days. It is a matter of organising all the wealth, power, strength, industry and man-power of the country.
Mr. Gallacher: Can the hon. Member give any indication of any Members on his side who would be prepared to give up wealth and go to work?
Mr. Dodd: No, but a great number would be prepared to give up a great deal and go to fight. At the conference to which I referred a few minutes ago, many people spoke, and it was an amazing thing to hear industrialists from all over Great Britain talking about what would happen if war came, what would be expected of them, and what should be done as compared with what was done in the last War, and to hear men who had been in the thick of it expressing the opinion that if war should come, manpower, wealth and industry should be mobilised in a national effort.
I do not wish to concentrate my speech on that aspect of the subject. I want to make a contribution from an entirely different point of view, namely, that of a serving Territorial officer. During the last 14 years, I have been in the Territorial Army. For three years before that, I was in an Officers' Training Corps. At the end of the last War, I was only a boy. I joined as soon as I could. During the last 13 or 14 years, the Territorial Army has been abused by almost every section in the land, and as there are some who have very short memories, I would like to remind the House of the things that have happened. Five, six or seven years ago, a wave of pacifism and disarmament swept the country. At that time, people did not think that anything like this could come again. During all

1419
that time, quietly making their way against every conceivable difficulty of recruitment, the local Territorial units were doing their best, and officers and men gave of their time. The record of hon. Members opposite is not too good. Time and time again, recruitment marches were refused and the use of town halls for recruitment meetings was barred. My own unit was refused the use of the local park for a jubilee parade. Various things of that sort happened. We had men who scarcely dared to go into the town in khaki uniform at that time; one had mufti parades whenever possible, so that the men could not be picked on and abused by men of the same age.
At the time of the crisis in September of last year, this country was very glad to be able to call upon the Territorial Army very glad to call upon those civilians who had given up nights and week-ends for years and years, and who had not just come and enlisted in a moment of crisis. They were men who had been trained, and who had been preparing men to train other men, for years and years; and they found themselves called upon at very short notice. The country was grateful to them. At that time, we learned very quickly from practical experience some of the difficulties we were up against. It has been said that the only necessity for this form of conscription arises because the voluntary system has failed, but I say that the reverse is the truth. It is because the voluntary system has succeeded that the necessity for this step has arisen, and anyone who knows the voluntary system practically knows that that is true.
In my unit, which is a battalion of the Tank Regiment we have not the slightest difficulty in getting troops. Our first line is full, and we could fill up the second line in a few days and a third line in a short time. Men are coming to offer their services and we have not the slightest difficulty in getting them. If this is allowed to go on we shall be placed in the same position as that in which we were in 1914–15, when the flower of the nation volunteered and was sent abroad and was wiped out in a year or so. The generation which followed the War has had to carry the brunt of trade and industry and commerce during the past 10, 12 or 15 years and we may have to
1420
face a repetition of what we have gone through since the last War. There is a terrible gap between the young men and the old men, the young man trying, without the experience of his elders to keep things working smoothly, without the experience of his elder brother, the man who volunteered for service before conscription in the last War and was killed in the early days of the War.
That is what we are up against to-day. The same thing is happening now. Men are volunteering willingly. There are others not so willing and they stay behind. I was talking to a young fellow in a local unit last week. He is an engineer and he told me he was serving his time. He joined up last year and said he was attending night school three nights a week and added, "I am expected sometimes to do three nights a week training with my unit. I am on parade on Saturday afternoon and probably I have a Sunday morning or afternoon parade. Then I have to work during the week. I joined because I felt I ought to serve. My whole week is taken up between my job and my work in the unit. I come out of my time shortly at 21 and I shall then be a fitter. I go to my work tired, because I have so much to do. I know I do not work as well as the lad on the benches next to me, and I know the foreman knows. The lad next to me has not volunteered and is doing nothing. Because he has his freedom he does his work thoroughly and the foreman makes a differentiation and chooses between us." A fortnight ago several young fellows came to me and said, "We have come to tell you we are not prepared to volunteer for National Service." I said, "Why come and tell me that?" They said, "We thought we would come and tell you, because you might misunderstand unless we make it clear why we are not prepared to vote for voluntary National Service. We are not prepared to serve voluntarily while men in the same department and the same shop have complete freedom to do as they want. On mobilisation we would be the first to be sent in the field and to hold up the main thrust of attack of the first few days."
That gives a practical indication of what is in the minds of some of these young fellows. There is no disloyalty. The men and the women too, are there and are coming forward. I hope that

1421
this House to-night will not, through some petty political point of view, discourage them. I ask the House to believe me when I say that a vast number of trade union members and of the working class in my division of all parties are definitely in favour of a measure of this character. There is not a shadow of doubt that the division is in the ranks of hon. Members opposite much less than in the ranks of the people. Let us try and forget our differences and our party political points of view. They are of such little importance in these days. The country is tired of politics. It wants something that will lead it clearly out of the present troubles. It does not matter whether it comes from these or the other benches as long as the country has leadership, as long as it is shown that something is being done and that we are prepared to make use of all the national effort which men and women are ready to make. They only want guiding into the right channels.
Let us not demonstrate to this country and people abroad that there is a division in our house, but rather demonstrate that we have belief in ourselves and that we can sink our lesser differences even if it is only for a year or two. I hate the idea of compulsion and conscription and the idea of making a man do something he does not want to do, but what I do not want to do is to take into action a number of young men untrained, not even capable of defending themselves, let alone the country. Let them be given training and equipment so that they may have the courage and strength to go out and say, "United we stand as a nation." Believe me, this country, and this Empire are invincible. Never mind talking about what we can do for Russia and using Russian manhood; let us for the present forget Russia and remember ourselves. Let us have at least one spark of faith in our own ability and in this great Empire. Let us stand together and show to the world that:
".… come the world against her,
England yet shall stand."
8.42 p.m.
Mr. Lansbury: Those of us who have listened to the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Dodd) will appreciate that he not only has strong principles, but is doing his best to live up to them. I dissent
1422
very strongly, of course, from a good deal of what he said, but I can always respect and appreciate the man who tries to live out his principles. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman has considered where his argument with regard to the two engineers carries him. If the other boy joined up there would be two inefficient workers in the engineering shop. The hon. Member was really making out a case against so much work on the part of the volunteer, and rather vitiated his argument. When he talks about the Territorials and the manner in which they have been treated during the last few years, with contumely and so on, I can only say I represent a district where, although there is not a strong feeling in support of the hon. Gentleman's views, I have seen soldiers marching and have never seen them interfered with or insulted in any way.
Mr. Dodd: I am not speaking of the last few years, but before then. The extraordinary thing was the way in which we managed to get units up to full strength. I am speaking of Oldham and of all the Manchester area, but at that time it was general throughout the country wherever a Labour council was in office.
Mr. Lansbury:I represent half a district which is entirely represented by Labour; nobody else has a chance. I do not remember any occasion on which we have done anything to insult the Territorials, or to deter men from joining them if they wished to do so. We have lent our recreation ground for cenotaph services, and so on, at which they have been represented. When he talks about the pacifist campaigns which have been carried on, and are still, I am glad to say, being carried on, he ought to remember that there was throughout the world, and not only in this country, at the conclusion of the last War, a spirit of determination that "Never again" should be a reality. The crime against the youth and manhood of to-day is to be found in the fact that the French, the British, the Italian and other Governments—not so much the German, because in the early days they were powerless—andespecially the United States, never took the least trouble to implement the promise that the disarmament of Germany should be followed by the disarmament of the world. Last night I received one telegram from a group of

1423
people and one from an individual mother imploring me to do whatever was possible to prevent this thing happening. The words of the telegram were:
"We believed that the last War was a war to end war. We have brought up our boys not to kill, and now Parliament is going to try to force them to kill. Do what you can to stop that."
I think that is a perfectly natural telegram for a mother to send. Is it not true that Lord Baldwin stood at that Box and told us of the horrors of aerial warfare and called upon the young men in this House and outside not to allow it to take place? He told us that if we would win the war we must kill more babies and women, and kill them more quickly than the enemy could kill ours, and I think all who heard him will agree that that speech just stunned us. I happened to go out of the House at the same time as he did, and he said to me, "Lansbury, I have been wanting to get that speech off for a long time. I am glad I have been able to do it at last." Why did he do it? I could not say anything stronger for pacifism than Lord Baldwin said at that Box. Well, nothing has changed. What he said then is true to-day, and it will be true to-morrow, and these mothers have a right to appeal to this House on this question.
I want to say a word about the pledge. I have grown too old to desire to impute evil motives almost to anybody. People say that I have grown soft about it, but I have grown to understand myself better than anybody else, and I know that the recording angel will want a big pail of whitewash to whitewash me, and therefore I am not so prone to sit in judgment on others. But the Prime Minister has put himself in a very difficult situation. He has told the country, and he has told people individually, that his pledge about conscription held good, and if he were here I should have liked to say to him that an argument founded on the words "Circumstances alter cases" is a very bad one indeed, because it was the one which was used by the German Foreign Minister when the Germans invaded Belgium. He defended that action by saying, "Necessity knows no law." Everyone remembers those words, and what we heard from the Prime Minister this afternoon was, in effect, "Necessity knows no law."
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I would not attempt to add to the magnificent speech, from the trade union point of view, of my hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), but when we are told by the right hon. Member for St. George's (Mr. Cooper) that conscription brings all classes together and when he talks about the sort of glorious elysium the French soldiers live in, I should like to ask how it is that the Communist party in France is stronger than in any other country outside Russia. Is that because it is a classless society and the classlessness has been brought about because they have conscription and everybody serves in the ranks? It is sheer nonsense to talk that way.
A further point I want to make, and I think it ought to be pressed home in all these discussions, is that conscription in this limited form is grossly unfair to the almost immature youths who will be conscripted. They are going to be taken in without having had any chance of life at all. It is said that this conscription is only for three years, but Acts of Parliament can be extended, and there is a provision to extend this one. I venture to say that if this Bill is carried there will be very soon a bigger measure of conscription, and I want the House, and especially my trade union comrades, to remember that the power of conscription can be used to break any sort of strike or dispute that the workers may have with big corporations. In France, even quite lately, we have seen the threat of the calling-up of several classes prevent a general strike. I am not arguing, and I do not want to be taken as arguing, whether general strikes are good or bad, but what we have to remember is that if there is conscription the Government of the day always have a terrific political weapon with which to destroy the economic claims of the workers, if they are put to it. No one has spoken about that from the other side. The brilliant speech of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) dealt with a lot of things, but it did not deal with the realities connected with the effects of conscription. You cannot have military conscription without, in my opinion, at the same time placing in the hands of the Government the power of labour conscription.
Let us keep to the French for the moment. It is said to-day that this has

1425
been done in order to destroy the pernicious doctrine that has been propagated in France, but I do not believe that many Frenchmen believe in that doctrine. I go to France as often as any other man and I have never heard the ordinary Frenchman talk in that way. The argument which they say is being put across in France is that we want to fight to the last Frenchman, but I would like to ask anybody to go over the figures of the last War. I could not find them before I came out to-day. They relate to the number of men who are known to have been slain in battle or wounded in the last War—men of this country, France and other nations. I believe it is reckoned that from 10,000,000 to 12,000,000 men were killed and a much larger number wounded. The total of the casualties of Great Britain bears a fair relationship to those of any other nation.
I would point out, as I tried to point out the last time I spoke, that, up to the time of Waterloo, British soldiers—English, Irish, Welsh and Scots—fought in Flanders, Belgium and the Lowlands, side by side with whom? With Germans, Prussians and Hessians, the ancestors of what is known as the German Empire. I wonder if in those days the jeer went round that we were fighting to the last German and Prussian and so on. Of all the childish, ridiculous, and stupid arguments I have heard, that about our fighting to the last Frenchman is about the worst.
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: I came back from France only this morning and the argument there is that in the last War the French lost between 600,000 and 700,000 men extra while our armies were preparing and while we were preparing the Kitchener armies.
Mr. Lansbury: The hon. Gentleman need not have interrupted me. I said that my division, which elects me as a pacifist but is not itself pacifist—I have always acknowledged that—almost immediately formed battalions and almost in a night they were over in France. Almost in a night they were wiped out. I am not going to let Frenchmen or anybody else make the assertion that people in this country did not put as big a weight into the business—the horrible and futile business—of fighting, as did anybody else.
Mr. Vyvyan Adams: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that those men would have had a better chance in the last War if they had been trained?
Mr. Lansbury: They were trained. Perhaps the hon. Member knows more about this matter than I do, but I know that they were trained. They went there and fought, and they had great eulogies from generals, the Press, the King, Parliament and everybody else. It is rather mean that at this time their services should be described and talked about as they are being now.
Mr. G. Nicholson: They are not.
Mr. Lansbury: The hon. Gentleman has just come in. I said before he came that I also go to France and also meet Frenchmen. I went to France during the first six months of the War and I talked to Frenchmen and Frenchwomen during that time. I never heard a word during that period about this matter. To have it all thrown out now in order to make an argument for conscription is rather mean. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman has his opinion and I have mine and mine as well as his is based on information received from French people in France. I therefore am entitled to put it here. I want to tell the hon. Gentleman another thing. I hear about the small countries wanting Great Britain to do this. It is only a few months ago that I went through Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Hungary, and I never heard any of this sort of calling in question of this country. All that I did hear is what I have told the House over and over again, that Great Britain, France and Germany, if they would only stop quarrelling and would unite and cooperate, could find plenty of employment for money, brain-power and energy in the Balkans and south-eastern Europe generally. I was never asked about conscription by statesmen or rulers. I discussed war and I gave lectures on pacificism. I went to the Ministers and rulers, and not one of them but agreed that another war would ruin civilisation and that we were all fools not to get together and start using the world instead of destroying the world. But I have been led off into this subject.
Anyone would imagine, to hear the arguments, that people on the Continent, where they have conscription, love it and enjoy it. I am the President of the War Resisters' International and my friends

1427
are raising money every day to help conscientious objectors who are either in prison or are just sent out of prison because of their refusal to conform. These people have always looked upon this country as the home of the voluntary system and as a place where it would always be maintained. Now you are going to take a step which will send, you say, a message of hope to some people; you are going to send a message of despair to others. There will be no country in the world where there is freedom from military conscription. That is a terrible thing for us to do. It also knocks on the head the idea that all the countries really enjoy it.
Now about ourselves. The Prime Minister has said that in the Bill that is coming forward provision will be made for conscientious objectors, who will be dealt with by being offered alternative service. They proposed that, in a way, on the last occasion. I hope that those who agree with the Prime Minister and with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) will take care how the tribunals are established and about the men who are put upon them. I do not think that old men like me ought to be put on these tribunals to weigh up the judgment and the conscience of much younger men, but persons much younger and persons with an appreciation of what conscience means. There are degrees of opposition to military service and what is called National Service.
I should like to say one word about National Service. I dissent altogether from the idea that the only National Service is that connected with war. I am one of those who want our country organised completely for National Service, I want all industry organised for National Service, I want the resources of the nation organised for National Service. Many a young man who would not go into the officers' training corps or join a cadet corps has been trying to train himself, or get himself trained, so that, in addition to earning his living, he might carry on some piece of social service or social work, which would bring him in no money, like many men on the other side and on this side of the House, but which would give him an opportunity of serving. Many of these men—more than I think, often, the House realises—would want, if they could be allowed to do so, to keep on in that
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sort of way, because they cannot go and fight, they cannot bring themselves to believe that they ought to do this thing.
I hope that the House, when the Bill comes forward, will look at this part of the question in a very broad manner. I know that in some countries there are terms of imprisonment, then the man is discharged, and then there is another term of imprisonment, but still the spirit of the man does not get broken, or the international organisation to which I belong would not be able to exist. There are members, too, of the Society of Friends, the Fellowship of Reconciliation, and other organisations, who cannot bring themselves to come within the military machine at all. There are others who cannot bring themselves to fight in any war which they think is a war waged just for capitalism, that is, for keeping things as they are; and so you have this to face in regard to this legislation. As I have said, many of these youngsters will have difficulty in persuading old men, whose minds are nearly always closed up and who think that they know sufficient. They ought to be able to go before tribunals that can understand the points of view that I have very imperfectly tried to put before the House.
Then there are others who couple with every other objection the religious objection, believing that war is a crime. That does not mean that they are self-conscious prigs, and think that all other people are more wicked than they Nothing of the kind. They come to a conviction in the way that we come to ours, and that conviction enables them to go through very great hardships. People say sometimes that they have not much courage. Someone behind me one day—I do not think he meant me to hear him—was talking about white-livered pacifists. Is it a very easy thing for these fellows to stand up in front of their friends? Is it an easy thing to face what one relative of mine has had to face? He was at Oxford. He was quite young. He joined the Army when he was, I think, about 16½, and then got so disgusted and upset with the horrible business that he came out as a conscientious objector, was sent to prison, and then, when the War was over, was never allowed to go back to Oxford, where all who know him know that he would have become a don quite easily. His whole career was wrecked. Now

1429
he has a boy of about 17. That boy, I am sure, come what will, will not go into the Army, and his father will probably have the bitter satisfaction of seeing a brilliant boy and his career wrecked. When you are judging these conscientious objectors, please remember that there are many of them living to-day who had to pass through that ordeal, and who are probably in the same position as my friend.
We hear a great deal about Hitler and about Mussolini. Some rather scathing things have been said this afternoon, and I expect that to-morrow they will be answered in kind. I wish it were possible to make these men talk with one another, rather than at one another in the way that has now become fashionable. I would like to remind Herr Hitler that three years ago, the day before his birthday, he himself said this, and published it:
"Germany will be very willing to attend a conference and take part in a united effort to establish economic co-operation and mutual understanding between the nations of the world, if President Roosevelt or the head of another great country will take the lead in calling such a conference."
It may be said that that was just eyewash, but I wonder what might have happened if President Roosevelt—who knew about this, as all the world knew, because it was broadcast throughout the world—I wonder what might have happened if someone had taken his word and there and then had said: "Right; now where shall we meet—at the Azores or somewhere in Europe—so that we can commence to talk?" When I spoke last, I said I wished that President Roosevelt would take some step like this. It was about a fortnight ago, two days before President Roosevelt sent out his message. I, like someone else who spoke to-day, had obviously no knowledge of that when I was making my speech, but he has sent it out. It is possible that to-morrow we may read or hear some sort of denunciatory speech from Herr Hitler, but I, at least, hope not. I disagree, perhaps, with my hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich, who said it will be better if he is blatant and not persuasive. I hope—perhaps it is a faint and stupid hope—that possibly he may not leave the door absolutely unopened.
I would like publicly to remind him of something else that he has said, both pub-
1430
licly and privately, many times, and that is that no man, no country, can gain anything out of another great war, but everybody will be losers. That has been said in this House again and again. I would also like to remind him of what the Prime Minister has said, what the Leader of the Opposition has said, and what I believe every speaker in this House has said—that this country, and in fact the world, are ready to meet round a table and discuss every grievance, and everything that they may feel is a grievance, and try to find a way out.
I have often said here—and perhaps I shall be forgiven for saying it again—that what is needed more than anything else in the world to-day is for some nation to be good enough—as Lincoln Stebbings, the great American writer, said—to enter the promised land, some nation that will be brave enough, bold enough, to say that we are living in an entirely new economic age, when, for the first time in the history of man, we can say that there is the potential power to produce enough for all the children of man, when we can say, "You can get access to every part of the world," when we can say that nation shall speak unto nation. All that is needed now is for some nation, and especially a nation like ours, with great possessions, to say, "We are willing to make a tremendous contribution towards the peace of the world by offering cooperation and service in the use of the world." It will mean giving up some prestige; probably it will mean giving up:
"God who made us mighty, make us mightier yet."
It will mean putting our country and our resources on the altar of common service. Just as, within this nation, we ask the landlords and the capitalists, through this House, to allow us to take the resources which they hold and to use them for the benefit of the common people of this country, so what is needed is an international movement that will give the lead in sharing the world instead of destroying the world.
9.18 p.m.
Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croft: I am sure that every hon. Member has been, as usual, impressed by the sincerity of the right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed us. I, for one, do most sincerely share his view that no good can come from fierce speeches delivered

1431
against individuals who may have the confidence of large numbers of people in the countries criticised. I feel that we have departed from our old British policy, which existed, perhaps, until the Great War, in that we allow ourselves sometimes to be carried away and to make speeches which are immediately wired overseas, and which contribute nothing towards decisions, but which merely exacerbate opinions and make it more difficult for statesmen to smooth things out in future. The right hon. Gentleman also desires to see every possible step taken to secure peace. He is, quite frankly, a pacifist. I hope, after all I saw in the last War, that I am pacific.
I think that when our minds are concentrated on the Measure which is coming before the House next week, we must remember that, however much the Prime Minister may be criticised to-day, no man has so fearlessly risked criticism in order to try to advance a policy of appeasement and peace in the world. We, who are always so fair in this House in our criticism of our fellow-Members, must appreciate that the mere fact that the Prime Minister, with such repugnance, as everybody knows, has been driven to take this step, as he believed in the national interest, in an hour of great anxiety, points to the fact that the danger is so great that, at the risk of further misunderstanding on the part of his fellow-citizens, he has to take new measures to make us safe. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) begged us to be fair, and to recognise the position of conscientious objectors when this Measure comes before Parliament. I share with him the view that where men, from the highest motives and religious convictions, really feel that they cannot join the Forces of the Crown, they should be given service equally helpful to the country in other fields.
I want to refer very briefly to the Leader of the Opposition. He suggested, rather stridently, that the Prime Minister was wrong in suggesting that this situation in which we find ourselves was not such a situation as would entitle him to introduce compulsion under the peacetime pledge. But towards the end of his speech he said, referring to nations on the continent of Europe, "A war policy has, in fact, been carried on." He was speaking of the dictators. If
1432
he believes that he should agree with the Government that the present is not a time of peace. Then he asked, "Does the Prime Minister really suggest that with every new obligation we need fresh forces?" I do not suppose that if you are going to add very largely to the number of your obligations each new obligation would need fresh forces, but the obligation in Central Europe which we have undertaken recently ought to mean additional forces. If it does not, we had no right to give the pledge and to encourage people there to believe that we are ready to share the sacrifices which we are asking from them by encouraging them to stand firm. You have no right to give them any sort of guarantee unless you mean that you are going to add to your land forces, so that you can make a real contribution to their salvation against the tremendous military machine which they are being expected to withstand.
Mr. Attlee: The hon. and gallant Member misunderstood my argument. My point is that the obligations which we had already would mean a great military effort, and that if war broke out there would be a call upon all our resources. The fact that we had accepted an additional obligation here and an additional obligation there did not necessarily mean an intensification of that effort, because if the worst came to the worst we should need all our strength.
Sir H. Croft: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I will come to the main point as to the need for strategic power in face of the two different types of commitment. When he says that in the event of war we shall need all our strength and all our man power, I would only ask him, as one who has a gallant record in the service of his country in the last War, will he not agree with me that, if he thinks there is any chance of war in the next six months, it is our bounden duty to see that a pool of reserves is trained and that we do not send our men to slaughter merely because they have not an idea of training and do not know how to take cover and to take ordinary precautions in battle?
I confess that I am a very recent convert to compulsory service. I am one of those who, like many hon. Members above the Gangway, hoped and believed that, in the face of great national danger,

1433
under a voluntary scheme we should have seen the whole of our democracy rise unitedly to serve. As one who takes a particular interest in this side of life, I have been tremendously impressed with the fact that, even with our very small Regular Army, during the last four years, till the last few months, we saw that the Regular Army was becoming so weak through lack of recruits in the face of the rising totalitarian States that but for the crisis of last September we might almost say we should have found it almost impossible to keep up the overseas battalions by this time this year. Then, again, I have given much of my life in the Territorial Army, and am naturally proud to think of the part which the Government have now asked it to take in the field. Although I agree so much with my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) I should be rather inclined to say, Do not underrate the Territorial Army. I can remember when I was with the lads of the village during the first Battle of Ypres. They were very green people who had no idea what war meant. They were within 60 yards of the Prussian Guard and there was no one between us and the sea. Everyone knows that Territorial units, when they have the right spirit and when they are well trained and well led, can most speedily render themselves fit to meet an enemy. But you have to remember that a large number of the men in the present Territorial Army will never have done a camp, which is only a fortnight, until after August next, and they are really not fit to meet the most highly trained armies in the world with three or four years constant service.
When we realise how small the Regular Army is, when we realise that the Territorial Army is untrained and that we have to make a land contribution as well as our sea and air contribution or else our support is a mockery, I beg the House to consider this fact that, if we sent our Regular Army overseas, and if we were able to send the first divisions of the Territorial Army, which have been up to strength for some time, also overseas, even if we were receiving great assistance from France on one front and other Allies on another, if the fighting is as intense as it was in the Great War, at the end of two months unless there is a trained pool of reserves somewhere, our whole military machine will be
1434
brought to a standstill. It is for that reason that I have been converted, most reluctantly, as I have also reluctantly been converted to this policy of widened commitments, that I believe that you must immediately have a trained reserve if you are not going to bring your fighting forces absolutely to a standstill within some two months of the commencement of a war.
Now one word as to what the right hon. Gentleman said concerning commitments. I, and many of my hon. Friends, believe that under the old commitment of the defence of the British Empire, of France, the Channel ports and the Low Countries, the contribution of the Fleet, which, after all is tremendous, with our great and growing air power, an army which could within a few months be put into the field of something like 500,000 men, Regulars and Territorials—that was a contribution which was sufficient for our commitments in Western Europe. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that we have decided to tell Poland that, if she is attacked, we will fight. We have told Rumania and Greece, without any reciprocal obligations, exactly the same. That has been claimed as a first step towards collective security. So what do we mean? There are 10,000000 trained totalitarian soldiers. I do not take war for granted—God forbid that this shall happen—but if there are 10,000,000, are you really moral in asking Poland, or Rumania, or Greece to stand firm if you can send only four or five divisions a year to their assistance? On any front, even on the French front, if you really hope to send a contribution of Territorial divisions in the near future, must we not see to it that we can keep them in the field? It must be clear to everyone that these new commitments have, in fact, placed new responsibilities upon us. I was terribly distressed as an Englishman. I thought we should never have to commit our people to go on to the battlefield and die for any interest other than the well-defined historical commitments that we have been under in Western Europe. We cannot undertake these other commitments, we cannot ask small nations which can put only 500,000 men into the field to fight and to die for our idea of collective security, unless we have the big battalions going out to stand behind them.
May I say one word with regard to the type of proposal that the Government

1435
have put forward? For some two years I have been trying to study what would be necessary if we should come to the position of a European war in the future, and I came to the conclusion that the finest thing that we could do for the country would be to have a reserve with a training comparable to that of the old Militia that we had before the War. I am getting rather old in these affairs compared with many present, but I have taken a great interest in the subject for many years. When a young man, as a Volunteer first of all and then a Territorial, I spent a considerable part of my time also in attendance at Militia training. The old Militia recruits did six months training and thereafter came up for three weeks or a month a year in the subsequent three years. In those days they were the real down and outs. [Interruption.] It was a holiday then. I hope it will not be awful slavery now. They were the poor lads of this country. I have seen them go into barracks and put aside their very shabby civil clothes, and at the end of their training most of them could not get into their civil clothes again. I mention that because I believe this proposal of the Government is going to be as helpful, physically and morally, to a large section of our population, who have no hope at the present time, as it will be from the military point of view.
It may be asked by hon. Members above the Gangway: "Why is it not suggested that we should have merely a Territorial system for the whole nation?" I should be the last to belittle the Territorial Army, but I cannot help thinking that for a large number of people in this country if you could give them six months definite training, with good food, good clothing, and under good conditions, it would be far more helpful and healthful to them than if you put them into the Territorial Army for four or five years and they went for a fortnight's camp each year. A large number of men to-day would not be fit to go to a Territorial camp. You must begin the training gently, in order to get them back into physical fitness. The old Militia used to go for what the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. G. Griffiths) described as three weeks' holiday. If it was three weeks' holiday in the old days a similar type of training for six months could hardly be regarded as something very
1436
terrible for the people of this country at the present time. Some 70,000 men a year used to go out to the Militia training of their own volition, and since that is what we are asking for under this scheme, it is not a very great burden to put upon the people of this country.
Mr. George Griffiths: Why not feed them now so that they will not be able to get into their clothes? Some of them are starving.
Sir H. Croft: It is because they are starving that I want to give them an opportunity of being well fed and having an opportunity of getting back their strength. I agree that men who are at the present time unemployed would not in many cases be fit to go straight out to a Territorial camp.
Mr. Griffiths: Then why did you vote for the means test?
Sir H. Croft: I think the hon. Member will agree that that is hardly relevant to this Debate. If anybody denies the great contribution that our people have made already under the voluntary scheme, they will be making a great mistake. It has been most encouraging to see the response of the men who have gone into the Territorial Army in recent months. No country in the world could have got as many recruits for A.R.P. It has been a very magnificent response, and it is because that voluntary effort is worthy of stimulation that I want steps to be taken to prevent a hiatus in the military scheme. If hon. Members above the Gangway think that war is impossible in the near future, that there is no danger, that Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini have come to the end of their adventures; if they believe that, then what I am saying is all wrong, but if they believe that there is danger, then I ask them to remember that none of these splendid volunteers in the Territorial Army will have any sort of campaign training until they go to camp in August.
It is because it is urgent to show to the world our answer to President Roosevelt, and to show the small countries in Europe where we stand, that we must do what is essential under this scheme. We must do something immediately in order to train a sufficient number of people to fill the gaps in our Army should they unhappily have to take part in a war overseas. I am grateful to hon. Members for permit-

1437
ting me to offer these few remarks, and I would like to add to what the Prime Minister said and to what was said by the hon. Member who spoke from the trade union angle. If this awful tragedy is coming to the world in the near future, next week, there will be no possible division between us. All difference will be obliterated and we shall simply be British citizens. I would beg hon. Members to consider whether we ought not to give, perhaps, this last hope of warning to the world by showing that this country means what it says and that although we are a pacific people we are prepared, if war comes, to fight with all the warrior virtues that our nation has shown when it saved the world on three previous occasions.
9.41 p.m.
Mr. Greenwood:This is an unusual occasion for members of my party. I do not remember when we have been appealed to in such feeling terms as we have been appealed to to-day for our support. It is astonishing that when it appears that we have come to the brink of war, those who despise us in peacetime make love to us. The Prime Minister to-day, at the end of his speech, made an appeal to us not to be hasty in reaching an irrevocable conclusion on a matter which appears from his speech to have been a very hasty decision on the part of the Government. We were told yesterday that the Government had reached a decision that they should establish the principle of compulsion in the fighting services, and to-day, after that hasty decision, we are asked not to be too hasty in coming to our conclusions. The right hon. Gentleman will present a pistol to our heads when eleven o'clock strikes. He put upon us the responsibility—I quote his words—"of taking a decision which may settle whether war will come or not." That responsibility is not ours. It is the responsibility of one who to-morrow may choose unwisely, as a result very largely of the continual capitulation made by His Majesty's Government. The decision in this matter does not represent the views of the British people.
We are not prepared to shoulder a responsibility which lies on the other side of the House and not on this. The right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) also tried to woo us. I felt a little embarrassment at the love-making that has gone on in the House to-day and which
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was concluded by the hon. Member who has just spoken (Sir H. Croft). The right hon. Member for Epping earnestly hoped that everything would be done to avoid giving encouragement to the dictators. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition in his opening sentences made it perfectly clear where we stand on that matter. I would utter no word which would give any encouragement whatever to any dictator, wherever he may be. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping said we should take our decision with great compunction and with a sense of responsibility. We shall do so.
This situation is no fault of ours. Britain is now reaping what successive Ministers on that side of the House have sown. We are suffering to-day from the effects of a melancholy train of disasters in foreign policy during the last seven or eight years, as indeed the right hon. Member for Epping admitted. He left out one disaster, but at least his list of disasters was an appalling attack upon those who, for over seven years, have governed the foreign policy of this country. But in spite of the mistakes that the right hon. Gentleman and his friends and predecessors have made, let me reaffirm what my right hon. Friend said in almost the opening passage of his speech, that this country will never allow itself to be dominated by dictators. We may differ as to ways and means. I profoundly differed from the right hon. Gentleman to-night, but so far as we on this side are concerned, the pledges that we have made regarding our defence and security and the maintenance of the liberty of the world, we shall keep.
The National Government have added another criminal act to an already very long list of crimes committed during the time that the National Government have been in office. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister tried to escape from the pledges which he handsomely admitted he had made as recently as a month ago He said that the situation had changed. There is no real change in the situation. At the time that the right hon. Gentleman made his last statement in reply to a Supplementary Question from me, he was; then contemplating the situation which we have before us to-day. Why did he bring up the Territorial Force to war strength, and double it? Because of this danger, because of possible commitments.

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Why did he not then tell us that within four weeks he felt that, because of his commitments, he might wish to be released from the promises that he had made? But I will say this to the right hon. Gentleman. He has since that day made three commitments—to Poland, to Rumania, and to Greece. He has no business to make commitments unless at the time he makes them he can be certain that he can fulfil them. It is not right to make commitments with the view in mind that some time in the future you may be able to fulfil them. The right hon. Gentleman has placed us where we are to-day because, in agreement with the French, he gave Czecho-Slovakia hopes that, should they be in trouble, they would be assisted. The British and French Governments made no objection whatever to the mobilisation of the Czecho-Slovakian forces. Those forces must have been mobilised with the belief that there would be help forthcoming if they were attacked. That help was not forthcoming.
No Prime Minister ought to pledge this country unless he is satisfied that he can fulfil the obligations that he has made. The right hon. Gentleman has no right to put this country in pawn, but he has put it in pawn. He has come to the House to-day to explain to us that, in spite of all that he has tried to do, he is very sorry, but with these obligations to three overseas countries, who will never want one division of British infantry—indeed, we could not get it there—he has come to the conclusion that we must have conscription. What, I may ask, is the purpose of this breach of pledge? I am still not very clear. Is it intended to be a warning before a speech is made to-morrow, or may it prove to be a mere irritant which will do more harm than good? It is, as I shall try to show, a very puny effort; it is an attempt to lull this country into a false sense of security. The right hon. Gentleman did it last autumn. He came back from Munich as the great saviour of peace, and he said, waving his piece of paper, which seems now to have been lost in the files at No. 10, Downing Street, "It is all right this time." The right hon. Gentleman is trying to persuade the people of this country that it is all right this time. Let me say, quite frankly, that we do not believe that this new proposal of the Government's means national security. The Prime
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Minister has bounded about clutching at one straw after another. He clutched at appeasement. Appeasement is a word that is not popular now on that side of the House. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh, yes, it is."] I hope hon. Members who believe in it will still pursue it, but I thought it had been discarded by His Majesty's Government. The right hon. Gentleman is trying now limited pacts of mutual aid as and when trouble arises. That is not our policy. It is a small approach to our policy, but it is not our policy. The right hon. Gentleman appears, however, to have so little faith in this new policy of limited pacts as and when trouble arises that he has turned now to the last, final, desperate expedient of what he calls a limited measure of conscription.
The right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Epping both referred to foreign opinion on this matter, and the right hon. Member for Epping referred to foreign propaganda. There is no reason why British policy should be based upon foreign propaganda, but there is every reason why the British Government should put their own case over to other nations. It is no reason why, because of misconception as to the part we should have to play in a general war, that we should necessarily accept the views of friendly peoples. Britain, as I have said, will be prepared, if called upon, to defend freedom and the friends of freedom and make the maximum sacrifices. It will not flinch from using the whole of its resources, material and human, for what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping called the common cause. But this country is entitled to some say as to the character of the aid which it should bring to the common cause. It is no reflection on our foreign friends to say that this island kingdom with its far-flung Dominions and Colonies, has troubles to face which they do not fully appreciate.
The British Navy is the greatest fighting and protective force in the world—of this country and of Continental countries. Should there be a great war, who will police the seas of the world? The British Navy. Who is to make that terrible weapon of the blockade effective? The British Navy. Who, among all our Allies in the West is to be expected to attack enemy seaports? The British Navy—not for us alone but for all who stand with us. Is that force to be despised? I

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do not wish to make comparisons about the Western nations, but in the West of Europe the British air arm, much as I still criticise it, is the greatest air arm in Europe west of the Urals. Is that to be despised? We have no Maginot Line in this country except A.R.P. Has not that to be made as effective as we can make it?
We on this side have not ruled out the possibility of an expeditionary force of reasonable size, but we may have cast upon our shoulders in the Great War that may come a productive test which no nation in the world has ever faced, not merely to provide our own war equipment and for the needs of our home population, but for other nations whose protective system has been demoralised and disturbed by perpetual air attack. Is that not a contribution? This country already can make the greatest contribution to the preservation, or the establishment of peace of any nation in the West. We cannot in these days of mechanised warfare, with all our other responsibilities, responsibilities which we cannot shirk, be called upon even by our best friends, to provide an Army on a Continental scale. I can see a point being rapidly reached at which every man in the Army would become a liability and not an asset because with the scale of destructive power of modern forces, the call upon production is something which I fear right hon. and hon. Gentlemen in this House have not yet visualised. I do not want to quote statistics, but I would say that in the high speed conditions of modern warfare on land and sea and in the air, you will need 20 men behind the lines or behind the Air Force or the Navy for every one you have on active service. If that be so, what nonsense is this talk about large-scale conscription?
The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has said that this is on a modest scale. It is limited to 310,000 boys. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping—I am sorry he is not in his place—grew almost lyrical at the prospect of this being the beginning of a great conscript army. I am entitled to ask how many of that gross figure of 310,000 will be the net addition to the fighting power of this country? The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour has a vanishing trick. He can prove that there is no standing army of nearly 2,000,000 un-
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employed. I am now going to prove, I think to the satisfaction of my hon. Friends, that this new potential army of 310,000 can be spirited away by facts and not by a process of argument such as that employed by the Minister of Labour. The gross figure of 310,000 will be whittled down by deductions of one kind and another. During the last War, I am informed, the net yield from an age group of that kind was less than half the gross total. If so, the 310,000 has shrunk already to 150,000.
But allowance must be made for further deductions. How many of these boys of 20 are already in the Territorials? I do not know, but I am informed by responsible people that about the heaviest age category in the new Territorials is that of the boys who are now to be conscripted. How many boys between 20 and 21 are now serving in the Regular Army, in the Royal Air Force and in the Royal Navy? The Secretary of State for War may be able to correct my figures, but shall I say that the total is about 50,000? I do not quibble about 10,000 in this matter, because my vanishing trick still continues. This phantom army of 310,000 boys now becomes very attenuated, and we should be left with, what? Not with the 200,000 which has been referred to in the House to-day and which was referred to in the Press yesterday, by strange methods of elimination which are beyond me, but with something like 100,000 to 150,000, which is little over twice the recent monthly enrolment in the Territorials under the voluntary service scheme.
Mr. Leslie Boyce: Of the age of 20?
Mr. Greenwood: I am on die point of military strength, and not of boys of 20. I am saying that the Territorial Force, if it keeps it up the next month, will, in two months, have provided voluntarily all that the right hon. Gentleman is requiring through his service of conscription. There is another point, and I agree fundamentally with the Prime Minister and with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping. There will be net losses in other directions. I believe that conscription will knock the heart out of all kinds of voluntary recruiting. It will be a discouragement not merely to the young men who might be conscripted when they are 20, but to the people older than that who fear that before long they may become victims of conscription, and

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who will say, "We will wait until we are called." If I am right—and I have some reason for believing that from messages which came to me last night and to-day in very large numbers—in saying that, it may well be that the actual net yield of military power as the result of conscription through the Measure now proposed will be nil. I could, if I were to press my case that this will do irreparable injury to voluntary recruiting of all kinds, prove, even more than the Minister of Labour could prove, that his recruits would be a minus quantity.
To make a breach in the system of voluntary service, as admitted by the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon, is a dangerous departure from settled British tradition. To make a break at the cost of creating new divisions inside this country, when the results might be negligible, is not merely fantastic; it is criminal. I am driven to ask, especially after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping, Is there something more behind this limited attempt to supplement voluntary service? Is this an organised attempt—and if it is organised it is a dishonest attempt—aided and abetted by full-blooded conscriptionists in this House of Commons, to enforce compulsion on Britain for good? It is a false policy to produce man-power in your fighting services without fighting power. It is an open secret that people now are enrolling in the Territorial Army at a greater rate than they can be used, and I could quote from yesterday's "Daily Telegraph" headed "Territorials' Lack of Arms." Here are second units being made up to strength and having to borrow rifles two or three nights a week from the first units.
What is the good of pretending to add to the man-power of this country, when the Government have neglected that production which is essential to the full use of the man-power when it is enrolled? We believe that willing service in this country—we do not take the gloomy view which is now being taken by the Government—can produce all that we need to utilise to the full all the war production which this country can possibly make available. The right hon. Gentleman neglected that side of it. He did admit that at some time, somewhere, there might be profits made out of this production, which still is not big enough, and he
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tried to bribe us to-day by saying that, however difficult it was, he would try to reduce profits on munitions, and, in the event of war, he would go so far as to curtail the production of new fortunes. Labour's view of liberty and service is not to be bought by bribes of this kind. It is not to be bribed by either prospective promises as to what will happen in a state of war or by the vaguest promises as to what will happen in the near future to existing profits made on armaments. We hold the view that no man and no company have the right to profit out of the nation's needs, and the right hon. Gentleman's promises do us less than justice.
But in any case—and I am bound to put this—pledges in these days of changing circumstances are no use. The circumstances may change again very shortly. The British Labour movement, which has been shabbily treated in this situation, which has made its offers and done its best, and on which this country must rely in the last resort, stands by its policy. We are not going to sacrifice a limited measure of freedom here at the dictates of the totalitarian States. We, who perhaps know the masses of this country better than hon. Members opposite—[Interruption]—however misled some of them may be politically, still believe that Great Britain can be saved by voluntary service. This Government has never tried it properly. It has shirked it. It has been paving the way for this kind of measure.
We in the Labour movement stand by the policy for which we have fought consistently in this House during the whole of this Parliament. British Labour rejects the Government's policy of conscription with a full sense of its responsibilities, and it does not do it in order to give any comfort to a potential aggressor. I cannot see a potential aggressor being afraid of this phantom army. British Labour warns potential aggressors that the working class will keep the freedom it has won. It has never been given anything; it has fought for everything it has, and it will keep what it has won, it will fight for what it has won. But it is not going into battle with a Government which is so afraid of the spirit of our people that it must begin to compel a very narrow section of it. It would prefer a Government which had the courage to rely upon what is the real view

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of our people, that is, faith in freedom and a determination to keep it. You have chosen your way and the responsibility for that lies upon you, and not upon us, and if dire consequences should befall, which Heaven forbid, our consciences are clear that we still stand for freedom without serfdom.
10.18 p.m.
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): I rise as the Minister immediately responsible for the military readiness of the country to reply upon this Debate. The House will, therefore, expect from me not so much a disputation about theories as an explanation of what is necessary in practice. Are our land forces suffiicient, and are they in a condition to meet our needs? These were the questions raised by the Leader of the Opposition at an early stage of the Debate, and they are questions which I desire frankly to answer. Whatever may have been the position until recently circumstances have completely altered the situation. There have, in fact, in recent weeks been far-reaching changes in our international policy, and these changes carry with them important military implications. The needs and the manner in which we propose to meet them I shall examine. Events move swiftly, and the whole tempo of our preparations must be accelerated to keep pace with them—that is, if we are not to be out-distanced. Historically Great Britain has been averse from pledging itself in advance to the military support of other nations. We had, it is true, our obligations under the aegis of the League of Nations, but our other commitments were confined to Portugal, an ancient ally, and to Egypt and Iraq, where we have special interests. The first decisive departure in our international policy was made on 6th February of this year, when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister declared in Parliament—and the words are important—that he felt
"bound to make it plain that the solidarity of interest, by which France and this country are united, is such that any threat to the vital interests of France from whatever quarter it came must evoke the immediate cooperation of this country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1939; col. 623, Vol. 343]
It was following upon this declaration that we announced our plan for 19 Divisions, a larger number than we had ever previously contemplated putting into the field. My right hon. Friend, with univer-
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sal approval, inserted the first thread in the new pattern which was to be woven. Since then, our fate has become inseperably associated with the independence of other European countries. The Germans moved into Bohemia and Moravia on 15th March, and in the ensuing fortnight international tension increased. It was in these circumstances that the Polish guarantee was given and we stated that if Poland
"considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1939; col. 2417, Vol. 345.]
By the time this pronouncement was made by my right hon. Friend, we had undertaken the doubling of the Territorial Army. That was the second military implication. Albania was occupied on Friday, 7th April, and again my right hon. Friend pledged this country, stating that:
"His Majesty's Government attach the greatest importance to the avoidance of disturbance by force or threats of force of the status quo in the 'Mediterranean and the Balkan Peninsula."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th April, 1939; col. 13, Vol. 346.]
And he gave a formal assurance to the Greek and Rumanian Governments that we would lend them, in certain contingencies, all the support in our power. This series of declarations does not leave Britain where she stood last year. Against none of the declarations has a dissentient voice been raised. They all carry the assent and convinced support of the nation. Yet the necessary steps have still to be taken to assure that we are in a position fully to implement them should the need arise. This is a democratic country, and there is no alternative but to discuss the position candidly. We are now asking Parliament which endorsed our new commitments to give us the required authority to take the necessary steps. My right hon. Friend has been realistic at every stage. Military implications have ensued upon international commitments.
May I ask the House to consider our military resources? The Regular Army has an establishment of 224,000 men. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was good enough to say that we have instituted many reforms to make the Regular Army more attractive, and that the recruiting had thereby con-

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siderably improved. That is true. The establishment is 224,000, but the strength is 204,000. I shall at a later stage be asking the House to increase that establishment. The Territorial Field Army has an establishment of approximately 325,000 men. Its strength is 167,000 men. The Anti-Aircraft Army, if I may so describe it, has an establishment of 96,000 men and a strength of 80,000. Let us take each of these forces in turn. In the Regular Army the difference between the figures of establishment and strength shows that we are short of trained men. Those who will be at the disposal of the Regular Army under the new scheme, for which we are asking approval in principle to-night, will, in the event of war, make the shortage less inconvenient. I would point out that, although doubt has been thrown upon the value of the numbers of men we shall engage each year, a number approximating to the whole strength of the Regular Army will be trained each year.
In regard to the Territorial Field Army, the new divisions will be composed in time of the best material that we have, of volunteers who have sacrificed their leisure and their holidays to fit themselves to defend our cause. We shall fill the ranks in time. We shall train the men in time. Yet time is a factor in international events which we cannot control. The response to our appeal for recruits to double the Territorial Army is most encouraging and the Government hope that no effort will be relaxed. The number of recruits enlisted since 1st April has been no fewer than 2,000 a day, a figure which far exceeds any record previously attained. The plan announced by my right hon. Friend yesterday, under which six months' intensive training will be given to all men between the ages of 20 and 21, will fill the gap while the slower process of assembling and preparing the new Territorial formations is taking place.
No voluntary scheme on a part-time basis could secure so rapid an accretion of trained strength. The Territorial Anti-Aircraft Army in an emergency is capable of manning in the most efficient manner our anti-aircraft defences, but being in civilian employment the men cannot be there all the time. The new scheme will provide personnel who will always be at the war positions, "holding the fort" until the arrival of the Territorials, and
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thus we shall be given an additional measure of security that could be afforded to us in no other way. The existing Regular Army, which is below establishment, could not possibly, in addition to its other responsibilities, find the men for this duty. On purely practical grounds, therefore, the scheme will achieve the maximum advantage to the nation, there can be no dispute about that, and it will achieve it with the minimum of hardship to the individual.
Six months is not a long time to give to the service of the State. In no way is the voluntary system of recruiting for the Regular and Territorial Armies qualified. On the contrary, it must be pursued with unflagging energy. Those who joined the Territorial Army before my right hon. Friend made his statement will be exempted from the compulsory training period, and those under 20 who join now will obtain an advantage, for they will be allowed to count the period they served against the three and a half years subsequent service which the compulsory recruit must do in the Territorial Army or in a special reserve.
I have now described the changes in our foreign policy which have necessitated, and only recently necessitated, changes in our military policy. I hope I have made it plain that there is a military necessity for this scheme. Firstly, it places at the disposal of the Regular Army a trained reserve of considerable proportions. Secondly, it enables us to keep our anti-aircraft defences permanently manned. It achieves these two objects with expedition. Is there any other way in which we could achieve them? Could we expand the existing Regular Army? It has to be borne in mind that the Regular Army has to serve abroad and provide drafts for overseas, and its terms of service are arranged accordingly. There are only a limited number of men who will spend 5, 6 or 7 years in the Army, and no system of conscription could reasonably keep them for so long. Therefore, we must continue to rely on the voluntary system for the Regular Army. The Territorial Army is composed of men engaged in civil avocations, and we cannot keep these men long enough at a time to give them intensive training. If, then, we cannot properly discharge our commitments to the full extent desired, either with the Regular or the Territorial Army, it is plain that there

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is a gap in our organisation. It is this gap which we will close by this scheme.
It is an essentially simple scheme, one designed to impose the minimum of inconvenience. Every man at 20 years of age will do six months' intensive training, either with the Regular Army or with an anti-aircraft unit. He will then pass to the Territorial Army or to a special reserve. I have been asked why the age of 20 was selected. It has been selected because it is the age at which apprenticeship is generally finished.
Mr. Ellis Smith: That is not true. It is the most important year.
Mr. Hore-Belisha: That point can be made quite plain by the figures on the discussion of the Bill. It has been selected as the age which will cause the minimum of hardship. At the younger age there would be more apprentices. There are 310,000 men in the age group between 20 and 21 years. Of these, it is estimated that the numbers in the Regular and Auxiliary Forces are 33,000. This figure subtracted from 310,000 leaves 277,000. It depends upon the rigour of the medical test how many of these will be excluded. As the Army is beneficial to the health of the nation I have no doubt that many will improve their physique in consequence. All will serve alike under this scheme, rich and poor, skilled and unskilled, professional and lay, and all will serve together. This is as democratic a proposal as has ever been made to this House. There may be two systems of education and there may be varying degrees of wealth, but here there is an identity of service. Far from dividing the nation, it should do much to bring the younger generation together and unite it by a common experience.
The only exemptions will be for those who have engaged in one of the Regular Forces or for those serving at the time of my right hon. Friend's statement in one of the Auxiliary Forces. Conscientious objectors will be able to do some other kind of national work. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) expressed the hope that those upon the tribunals which will determine whether or not an applicant should be exempted upon this ground should have some understanding of his moral faith; I hope that that will be made sure. It may be possible under the scheme to advance or
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retard the age in case the curriculum of a man's career should be hampered. If it would suit him to come up earlier, he may do so if he makes out his case. Similarly, he may come up later. That will cover apprentices and students. The only other obligation to those who are called up under this scheme will be 30 drills and two weeks' camp with the Territorial Army or three weeks with the special reserve, in each year for three and a-half years subsequent to the six months. There will be no further obligation except in war. There could not be a fairer system or one which interferes less with private life than this one. In Switzerland, the obligation to serve continues to the age of 6o, and drills have to be done at varying times. Nearly all other European nations carry the obligation on into middle life.
What are the objections to this scheme? There are incidental objections, and there are objections of principle. The first incidental objection—for it does not touch the principle of the scheme—is the pledge given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. I was surprised to hear any reference made to this pledge in any derogatory sense by my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair). After the pledge is alleged to have been reiterated, my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland spoke in this House. He spoke in this House on Monday, 3rd April, and this is what he said:
"Henceforth the possibility of stopping Herr Hitler from plunging the world into war will mainly depend on the measures adopted by the Government. Let us, therefore, join together in exacting from this Government promptness and vigour in action …. Not another yard of ground must be lost."
And again:
"I believe in voluntary service, … but if the Government, with their incomparable sources of information, reach a different conclusion, it would be unforgivable if they refrained from political motives, … from telling the House and the country the truth."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd April, 1939; col. 2498, Vol. 345.]
My right hon. Friend knew at that time as much as he knows to-day about the pledge, but he said it would be unforgivable if my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did not tell the House and the country the truth. He has told them the truth to-day, and he is, I hope, if the pledge of my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland is valid, entitled to his support.
Sir A. Sinclair: My objections have not been addressed to the Prime Minister for coming before the House and asking for release from his pledge. I have never objected to that to-day; I made no such statement; but I stand by every word I said there. I believe in the voluntary system and I still believe the voluntary system could provide the men.
Mr. Hore-Belisha: Does the right hon. Gentleman also believe that:
"If the Government, with their incomparable sources of information, reach a different conclusion, it would be unforgivable if they refrained from telling the House and the country the truth"?
Sir A. Sinclair: Certainly.
Mr. Hore-Belisha: It is on that that I base my claim to the right hon. Gentleman's support. It is, perhaps, a misunderstanding, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) also intended his words to carry their proper implication when he spoke on the same day. He said:
"If the Government in these days be slow moving, vacillating, and uncertain, they will meet with the sternest criticism. We have every reason to be critical and indeed suspicious of the present Government, and we must, of course, suspend a final judgment on the Government's proposals until we are satisfied that they will be adequate to meet the international situation."
He also said:
"We have now reached the stage where there is a declaration regarding Poland, a declaration which must, without delay, be fully clothed with meaning and made capable of instant application."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd April; cols. 2478–80, Vol. 345.]
That is our view. This action has been taken in order to clothe our guarantee with meaning, and to make it capable, at any rate, of more instant application. Another objection which has been advanced against this scheme is that it is partial. The Independent Liberal Amendment complains of it on that ground. The only alternative to "partial," I suppose, is "total." In every country, if men are called up they are called up at a certain age. It is not everyone who is embodied simultaneously in conscript countries. Everybody is called up at a particular age, and we all were 20 once—some of us remain 20, I have no doubt, in many ways. The right hon. Gentleman said it was unfair that a man of 21 or 22 should be exempted while a man of 20 was called
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up. Next year he will not be able to make that claim. The scheme, of course, must of its nature be partial unless you are going to conscript everybody in all classes of the community. My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), in that most powerful speech he made, expressed some doubt about casting so great a burden on so many men of 20 years of age. But more than 50 per cent, of the men enlisted in the British Army to-day are under 20 years of age, and, although the Army enlists men for seven years, its average age is under 25. Therefore, it is by no means unusual to expect men of this age to bear that burden.
Another complaint has been made—and it is formulated in the Independent Liberal Amendment—that it is wrong to introduce this scheme at a time when the rate of recruitment is outpacing the supply of war equipment. I do not know why my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland should have identified himself with that statement, because in the speech from which I have already quoted—which is a mine of useful instruction—he said:
"Meanwhile, the Regular Army has a great deal of training equipment that is not being regularly used. Why do the Government not raise militia battalions, which could speedily be trained with the use of the equipment of the Regular Army?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd April, 1939; col. 2498, Vol. 345.]
Therefore, it worried me a little to reconcile that suggestion with the complaint that he makes of the suggestion being adopted. If it is true that there will be a strain on the Regular Army—I do not wish to minimise it; there is bound to be in the provision of so many necessities, building accommodation, instructors, equipment—but the fact is that there is enough equipment with the Regular Army, as the right hon. Gentleman said, and that is the advantage of training these men with the Regular Army. It is because our equipment needs are so much greater than they were that we have proposed to institute a Ministry of Supply. It will have power to allocate orders and to assure priority. These powers have been described, even by those who approve of them, like hon. Gentlemen opposite, as "conscription of industry," and of course they are. They are conscription of firms. These powers enable you to compel firms to accept orders or to give priority.

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The principle of the conscription of wealth has long been accepted. As my right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's (Mr. Duff Cooper) said in a most brilliant speech, you may argue that you should take 50 per cent, or 99 per cent, of a man's income, but the principle has been accepted of taking some part of his income, although the principle still remains of allowing him some quota of his own earnings. My right hon. Friend has indicated that we are going to conscript wealth still more. If you have conscription of industry in the manner that I have described, if you have conscription of profits and conscription of wealth, why should you not also have conscription of the men who use what both the conscription of industry and the conscription of wealth can provide?
Compulsory service is not alien to the practice of this land. The Militia was raised, even in the last century, under an Act which provided for compulsion. Service to one's country, being at the disposal of the State in case of need, is part of our common law. It is also part of common sense. The liberty of the individual cannot be allowed to imperil the liberties of the nation. He who sets the greatest store by his nation's freedom will at this hour be the first to submit to some curtailment of his own. These will not be unwilling men. They will be proud to bear an equal burden under equal conditions. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Hicks), whose views we all respect, said, what the hon. Member who just interrupted me said, that conscription is the basis of totalitarian States. It is also the basis of democratic States. No greater insult could be delivered to France, the Scandinavian countries and Switzerland than to suggest
that the basis of their national life was copied from the totalitarian States. It is to protect themselves from the totalitarian States that they have maintained these very necessary precautions, and on the most democratic lines.
I realise that there are genuine fears and forebodings on the other side of the House, and we are accustomed to respect one another's scruples. I realise that they fear not so much what is being done as what may be done. They fear that labour may be conscripted. We are not discussing such a proposal to-night. We have no intention of introducing such a proposal. What we are discussing to-night is the defence of this nation, towards which hon. Members opposite have helped as much as anybody else, and I am sure that their help will continue. The defence of this nation and the measures necessary to secure it are what we are discussing. We are discussing those measures at a critical time, when our decision means much.
The right hon. Member for Wakefield said that he was not prepared to shoulder the responsibilities of the Government. We are not inviting him to shoulder those responsibilities, although we would have preferred that he should share them with us. They are the Government's responsibility, and in all solemnity, knowing the facts, knowing the needs, the Government inform hon. Members opposite that these measures are necessary, vital and urgent, and it is upon those grounds that I commend them to the House.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 380; Noes, 143.

Division No. 84.]

AYES.

[10.58 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Balniel, Lord

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Barrie, Sir C. C.

Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Baxter, A. Beverley

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Albery, Sir Irvine

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portm'h)

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh)

Beechman, N. A.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

Anderson, Sir A. Garret) (C. of Ldn.)

Bernays, B. H.

Bull, B. B.

Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's)

Blair, Sir R.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Blaker, Sir R.

Burghley, Lord

Apsley, Lord

Boothby, R. J. G.

Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

Assheton, R.

Bossom, A. C.

Burton, Col. H. W.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Boulton, W. W.

Butcher, H. W.

Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Butter, Rt. Hon. R. A.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Boyee, H. Leslie

Caine, G. R. Hall-

Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

Bracken, B.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

Cartland, J. R. H.

Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

Braithwaite, J. G. (Holderness)

Carver, Major W. H.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Brass, Sir W.

Cary, R. A.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R, J.

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R.

Macquisten, F. A.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Granville, E. L.

Magnay, T.

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Maitland, Sir Adam

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

Channon, H.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Markham, S. F.

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

Choriton, A. E. L.

Grimston, R. V.

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Christie, J. A.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

Medlicott, F.

Clarks, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Colman, N. C. D.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Mills, Sir F- (Leyton, E.)

Colville, Rt. Hon. John

Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.

Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

Cook, Sir T. R. A. M (Norfolk, N.)

Hambro, A. V.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Hammersley, S. S.

Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

Hannah, I. C.

Moreing, A. C.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbridge)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Harbord, A.

Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

Cox, H. B. Trevor

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

Cranborne, Viscount

Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Craven-Ellis, W.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Critchley, A

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Munro, P.

Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

Hepworth, J.

Nall, Sir J.

Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

Herbert, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Monmouth)

Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Higgs, W. F.

Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

Cross, R. H.

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Crossley, A. C.

Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Holdsworth, H.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Cruddas, Col. B.

Holmes, J. S.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Culverwell, C. T.

Hopkinson, A.

Owen, Major G.

Davidson, Viscountess

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Horsbrugh, Florence

Patrick, C. M.

Davison, Sir W. H.

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Peake, O.

De Chair, S. S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack, N.)

Peat, C. U.

De la Bère, R.

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Perkins, W. R. D.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Hulbert, Squadron-Leader N. J.

Peters, Dr. S. J.

Denville, Alfred

Hume, Sir G. H.

Petherick, M.

Dodd, J. S.

Hunloke, H. P.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Doland, G. F.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Pilkington, R.

Donner, P. W.

Hutchinson, G. C.

Plugge, Capt. L. F.

Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.

Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Dower, Lieut.-Col. A. V. G.

James, Wing-Commands A. W- H.

Porritt, R. W.

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Power, Sir J. C.

Duckworth, W. R. (Mm. Side)

Joel, D. J. B.

Procter, Major H. A.

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Jones, Sir G W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

Purbrick, R.

Duggan, H.J.

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Radford, E. A.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Keeling, E. H.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Dunglass, Lord

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Ramsbotham, H.

Eastwood, J. F.

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Ramsden, Sir E.

Eckersley, P. T.

Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

Rankin, Sir R.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Ellis, Sir G.

Latham, Sir P.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

Emery, J. F.

Leech, Sir J. W-

Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Leigh, Sir J.

Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Entwistle, Sir C. F,

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Renter, J. R.

Errington, E.

Levy, T.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

Lewis, O.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Liddall, W. S.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Evans, E. (Univ. of Waits)

Lindsay, K. M.

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Everard, Sir William Lindsay

Lipson, D. L.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Fildes, Sir H.

Little, Sir E. Graham-

Rothschild, J. A. de

Findlay, Sir E.

Llewellin, Colonel J. J.

Rowlands, G.

Fleming, E. L.

Lloyd, G. W.

Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Loftus, P. C.

Russell, Sir Alexander

Furness, S. N.

Lyons, A. M.

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v'n)

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Salmon, Sir I.

George, Major G. Lloyd Pembroke)

M'Connell, Sir J.

Salt, E. W.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

McCorquodale, M. S.

Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Samuel, M. R. A.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Sandeman, Sir N. S.

Gledhill, G.

Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Gluckstein, L. H.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Sandys, E. D.

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

McKie, J. H.

Schuster, Sir G. E.

Goldie, N. B.

Maclay, Hon. J. P.

Scott, Lord William

Gower, Sir R. V.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Selley, H. R.

1456

1457

Shakespeare, G. H.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Wayland, Sir W. A.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Tate, Mavis C.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Wells, Sir Sydney

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Thomas, J. P. L.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Smithers, Sir W.

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Snadden, W. McN.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

Touche, G. C.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Train, Sir J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Wise, A. R.

Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Spent, W. P.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R, L.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld)

Turton, R. H.

Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

Stewart, J. Henderson (File, E.)

Wakefield, W. W.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Walker-Smith, Sir J.

Wragg, H.

Storey, S.

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

York, C.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Warrender, Sir V.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Captain Margesson and Lieut.-Colonel Kerr.

Sutcliffe, H.

Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Pearson, A.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Groves, T. E.

Pathick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Pools, C. C.

Adamson, W. M.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Pritt, D. N.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Hardie, Agnes

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Ammon, C. G.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Ridley, G.

Anderson, F, (Whitehaven)

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Ritson, J.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Hayday, A.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Banfield, J. W.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

Barnes, A. J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Sanders, W. S.

Batey, J.

Hicks, E. G.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Beaumont, H. (Battle)

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Sexton, T. M.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Hollins, A

Shinwell, E.

Bevan, A.

Hopkin, D.

Silkin, L.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Simpson, F. B.

Buchanan, G.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Burke, W. A.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Sloan, A.

Cape, T.

Kirby, B. V.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Cassells, T.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Charleton, H. C.

Lathan, G.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees-(K'ly)

Chater, D.

Lawson, J. J

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Cluse, W. S.

Leach, W.

Sorensen, R. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Leslie, J. R.

Stephen, C.

Cocks, F. S.

Logan, D. G.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Collindridge, F.

Lunn, W.

Strauss, G R. (Lambeth, N.)

Cove, W. G.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

McEntee, V. La T,

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Daggar, G.

McGhee, H. G.

Thorne, W.

Dalton, H.

McGovern, J.

Thurtle, E.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Maclean, N.

Tinker, J. J.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

Tomlinson, Q,

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Viant, S. P.

Day, H.

Mander, G. le M.

Walker, J.

Dobbie, W.

Marklew, E.

Watkins, F. C.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Marshall, F.

Watson, W. McL.

Ede, J. C.

Mathers, G.

Welsh, J. C.

Foot, D. M.

Maxton, J.

Westwood, J.

Frankel, D.

Messer, F.

White, H. Graham

Gallacher, W.

Milner, Major J.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Gardner, B. W.

Montague, F.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Garro Jones, G. M.

Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Gibbins, J.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

Gibson, R. (Greenock)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Graham, D. M (Hamilton)

Muff, G.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Naylor, T. E.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Grenfell, D. R.

Oliver, G. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Parker, J.

Mr. Paling and Mr. Whiteley.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Parkinson, J. A.

Main Question put.

Division No. 85.]

AYES.

[11.12 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Allen, Cot. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's)

Adams, S. V. T, (Leeds, W.)

Alien, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh)

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Apsley, Lord

Albery, Sir Irving

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. Of Ldn.)

Assheton, R.

The House divided: Ayes, 376; Nose, 145.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Denman, Hon. R, D.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Danville, Alfred

Hunloke, H. P.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Dodd, J. S.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

Doland, G. F.

Hutchinson, G. C.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Donner, P. W.

Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Dower, Lieut.-Col. A. V. G.

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Balniel, Lord

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Joel, D. J. B.

Barrio, Sir C. C.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

Baxter, A. Beverley

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Duggan, H. J.

Keeling, E. H.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Duncan, J. A. L.

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Beechman, N. A.

Dunglass, Lord

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Eastwood, J. F.

Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

Bernays, R. H.

Eckersley, P. T.

Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

Blair, Sir R.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Blaker, Sir R.

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Latham, Sir P.

Bossom, A. C.

Ellis, Sir G.

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Boulton, W. W.

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Leech, Sir J. W.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Emery, J. F.

Leigh, Sir J.

Boyce, H. Leslie

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Leighton, Major B. E. P

Bracken, B.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

Levy, T.

Braithwaite, J. G. (Holderness)

Errington, E.

Lewis, O.

Brass, Sir W.

Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

Liddall, W. S.

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Lindsay, K. M.

Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

Lipson, D. L.

Brooklebank, Sir Edmund

Everard, Sir William Lindsay

Little, Sir E. Graham-

Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

Fildes, Sir H.

Llewellin, Colonel J. J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Findlay, Sir E.

Lloyd, G. W.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Fleming, E. L.

Locker-Lampion, Comdr. O. S.

Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Loftus, P. C.

Bull, B. B.

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Lyons, A. M.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Furness, S. N.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Burghley, Lord

Fyfe, D. P. M.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v'n)

M'Connell, Sir J.

Burton, Col. H. W.

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

McCorquodale, M. S.

Butcher, H. W.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A.

Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Caine, G. R. Hall.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Gledhill, G.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Gluckstein, L. H.

McKie, J. H.

Carver, Major W. H.

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-an-Tees)

Cary, R. A.

Goldie, N. B.

Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R. J.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Gower, Sir R. V.

Macquisten, F. A.

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Magnay, T.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R.

Maitland, Sir Adam

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Granville, E. L.

Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Channon, H.

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Markham, S. F.

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Chorlton, A. E. L.

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Christie, J. A.

Grimston, R. V.

Medlicott, F.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

Mills, Sir F. (Layton, E.)

Colman, N. C. D.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Colville, Rt. Hon. John

Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Hambro, A. V.

Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Hammersley, S. S.

Moreing, A. C.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

Hannah I C.

Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbridge)

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

Harbord, A.

Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Cox, H. B. Trevor

Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Cranborne, Viscount

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Munro, P.

Craven-Ellis, W.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan.

Nall, Sir J.

Critchley, A.

Hepworth, J.

Neven-Spence, Major B, H. H.

Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

Herbert, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Monmouth)

Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

Higgs, W. F.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Cross, R. H

Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Crossley, A. C.

Holdsworth, H.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Holmes, J. S.

Owen, Major G.

Cruddas, Col. B.

Hopkinson, A.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Culverwell, C. T.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Patrick, C. M.

Davidson, Viscountess

Horsbrugh, Florence

Peake, O.

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Peat, C. U.

Davison, Sir W. H.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Perkins, W. R. D.

De Chair, S. S.

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Peters, Dr. S. J

De la Bère, R,

Hulbert, Squadron-Leader N. J.

Petherick, M.

1460

1461

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Touche, G. C.

Pilkington, R.

Sandys, E. D.

Train, Sir J.

Plugge, Capt. L. F.

Schuster, Sir G. E.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Scott, Lord William

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Porritt, R. W.

Selley, H. R.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Power, Sir J. C.

Shakespeare, G. H.

Turton, R. H.

Procter, Major H. A.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Wake field, W. W.

Purbrick, R.

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Walker-Smith, Sir J.

Radford, E. A.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan.

Raikes, H. V. A. M,

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Ramsbotham, H.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Ramsden, Sir E.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Rankin, Sir R.

Smithers, Sir W.

Warrender, Sir V.

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Snadden, W. McN.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wayland, Sir W. A

Rod, A. C. (Exeter)

Southby, Commander Sir A. R, J.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

Wells, Sir Sydney

Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

Spens, W. P.

Whitey, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Raid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby.)

Stewart, J. Henderson (File, E.)

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Ramer, J. R.

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Storey, S.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Stratus, H. G. (Norwich)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry]

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Rom Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wise, A. R.

Rowlands, G.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

Sutcliffe, H.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

Russell, Sir Alexander

Tate, Mavis C.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Wragg, H.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwin)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.

Salmon, Sir I.

Thomas, J. P. L.

York, C.

Salt, E. W.

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

Samuel, M. R. A.

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Sandeman, Sir N. S.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Captain Margesson and Lieut.-

Colonel Kerr

NOES.

Adam, D. (Consett)

Gibson, R. (Greenock)

Mathers, G.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

Maxton, J.

Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Messer, F.

Adamson, W. M.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Milner, Major J.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Granted, D. R.

Montague, F.

Ammon, C. G.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Banfield, J. W.

Groves, T. E.

Muff, G.

Barnes, A. J.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Naylor, T. E.

Batey, J.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Beaumont, H. (Batley)

Hardie, Acnes

Oliver, G. H.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Parker, J.

Bevan, A.

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Parkinson, J. A.

Broad, F. A.

Hayday, A.

Pearson, A.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Buchanan, G.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Poole, C. C.

Burke, W. A.

Hicks, E. G.

Pritt, D. N.

Cape, T.

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Cassells, T.

Hollins, A.

Ridley, G.

Charleton, H. C.

Hopkin, D.

Ritson, J.

Chater, D.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Sanders, W. S.

Cocks, F. S.

Kirby, B. V.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Collindridge, F.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Sexton, T. M.

Cove, W. G.

Lathan, G.

Shinwell, E.

Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

Lawson, J. J.

Silkin, L.

Daggar, G.

Leach, W.

Simpson, F. B.

Dalton, H.

Leonard, W.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Leslie, J. R.

Sloan, A.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Logan, D. G,

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lunn, W.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Day, H.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Dobbie, W.

McEntee, V. La T.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

McGhee, H. G.

Sorensen, R. W.

Ede, J. C.

McGovern, J.

Stephen, C.

Fool, D. M.

Maclean, N.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Frankel, D.

MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Gallacher, W.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Gardner, B. W.

Mander, G. le M.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Garro Jones, G. M.

Marklew, E.

Thorns, W.

Gibbins, J.

Marshall, F.

Thurtle, E.

1462

1463

Tinker, J. J.

Welsh, J. C.

Wilton, C. H. (Attercliffe)

Tomlinson, G.

Westwood, J.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Viant, S. P.

White, H. Graham

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Walker, J.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Watkins, F. C.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Watson, W. McL.

William, T. (Don Valley)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. Paling and Mr. Whiteley.

Resolved,
"That this House approves the proposal of His Majesty's Government to introduce as soon as possible a system of compulsory military training as announced on 26th April; regards such a system as necessary for the safety of the country and the fulfilment of the undertakings recently given to certain countries in Europe; and welcomes the fact that the Government is associating with this proposal fresh legislative powers to limit the profits of firms engaged mainly in armament production, and the assurance that, in the event of war, steps will be taken to penalise profiteering and to prevent additions to individual fortunes out of war-created conditions."
The Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.

COMPULSORY MILITARY TRAINING.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-Five Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

UNEMPLOYMENT.
  CATERING INDUSTRY.
  CATERING INDUSTRY.
  TEAM VALLEY TRADING ESTATE.
  TEAM VALLEY TRADING ESTATE.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  EX-SERVICE MEN (KING'S NATIONAL ROLL).
  EX-SERVICE MEN (KING'S NATIONAL ROLL).
  FACTORIES ACT (YOUNG PERSONS).
  FACTORIES ACT (YOUNG PERSONS).
  FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.
  FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.
  PROCESSIONS, EAST LONDON.
  PROCESSIONS, EAST LONDON.
  INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENTS.
  INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENTS.
  ROYAL PARKS (MOTOR SPEED LIMIT).
  ROYAL PARKS (MOTOR SPEED LIMIT).
  FACTORY INSPECTORATE.
  FACTORY INSPECTORATE.
  SCHOOL CHILDREN (PART-TIME EMPLOYMENT).
  SCHOOL CHILDREN (PART-TIME EMPLOYMENT).
  REFUGEES.
  REFUGEES.
  WITNESS'S ARREST (MR. G. W. PALING, BEESTON).
  WITNESS'S ARREST (MR. G. W. PALING, BEESTON).
  ROAD ACCIDENTS (POLICE MOTOR PATROLS).
  ROAD ACCIDENTS (POLICE MOTOR PATROLS).
  LICENSED TRADE (TIED HOUSES).
  LICENSED TRADE (TIED HOUSES).
  TUBERCULOSIS (WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION).
  TUBERCULOSIS (WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION).
  MESSRS. KRUPPS (ARMAMENT PATENTS).
  MESSRS. KRUPPS (ARMAMENT PATENTS).
  TITHE ACT SUMMONSES.
  TITHE ACT SUMMONSES.
  HOUSE PURCHASERS (PROTECTION IN EMERGENCY).
  HOUSE PURCHASERS (PROTECTION IN EMERGENCY).
  BRITISH CAPITAL (EXPORT).
  BRITISH CAPITAL (EXPORT).
  NATIONAL SAVINGS.
  NATIONAL SAVINGS.
  NATIONAL SERVICE.
  NATIONAL SERVICE.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION (STATISTICS).
  INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION (STATISTICS).
  MERCHANDISE MARKS.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS.
  BANKRUPTCIES.
  BANKRUPTCIES.
  COPPER AND COPPER ORE (JAPANESE IMPORTS).
  COPPER AND COPPER ORE (JAPANESE IMPORTS).
AGRICULTURE.
  LIVESTOCK INDUSTRY (SLAUGHTER-HOUSES).
  LIVESTOCK INDUSTRY (SLAUGHTER-HOUSES).
  VEGETABLE PRODUCTION.
  VEGETABLE PRODUCTION.
DEFENCE.
  RUBBER STOCKS.
  RUBBER STOCKS.
  MARRIAGES, SCOTLAND.
  MARRIAGES, SCOTLAND.
  BRITISH ARMY (BARRACKS, WARLEY).
  BRITISH ARMY (BARRACKS, WARLEY).
  PALESTINE.
  PALESTINE.
CIVIL DEFENCE.
  ALIENS (ENROLMENT).
  ALIENS (ENROLMENT).
  TINNED FOODSTUFFS.
  TINNED FOODSTUFFS.
  PROPERTY OWNERS.
  PROPERTY OWNERS.
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
TRANSPORT.
  TWO-WAY ROADS.
  TWO-WAY ROADS.
  BY-PASS, CORBRIDGE.
  BY-PASS, CORBRIDGE.
  RIVER TYNE ROAD TUNNEL.
  RIVER TYNE ROAD TUNNEL.
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (RECRUITMENT).
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (RECRUITMENT).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT).
  LIVERPOOL (FIVE-YEAR PROGRAMME).
  LIVERPOOL (FIVE-YEAR PROGRAMME).
  HOUSING (RURAL WORKERS).
  HOUSING (RURAL WORKERS).
  GERMANY (RAW MATERIALS).
  GERMANY (RAW MATERIALS).
  EUROPEAN SITUATION.
  EUROPEAN SITUATION.
  SPAIN.
  SPAIN.
  UNITED STATES (NEW BRITISH AMBASSADOR).
  UNITED STATES (NEW BRITISH AMBASSADOR).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

MILITARY MANŒUVRES: MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have to convey to the House the following Message from the King, signed with his own hand:
"I have received your Address praying that I will make two Orders in Council under the Military Manœuvres Acts, 1897 and 1911, drafts of which were presented to your Lordships' House on the 8th day of February last. I will comply with your advice."

QUEEN ANNE'S BOUNTY (POWERS) MEASURE, 1939.
4.17 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. EDMUNDSBURY AND IPSWICH THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. EDMUNDSBURY AND IPSWICH moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Queen Anne's Bounty (Powers) Measure, 1939, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, I need not detain your Lordships more than two or three minutes in presenting the two Measures which appear on the Order Paper. The first gives additional powers to the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty to deal with the proceeds of the sale of houses under Queen Anne's Bounty, and the disposal of these funds is regulated by Acts of Parliament and Measures which were passed in earlier times. Under modern conditions it is found that the uses to which these proceeds may be applied are rather too limited and the powers which Queen Anne's Bounty has are too restricted. So this Measure gives them rather more power to deal with those funds with the consent of everybody whose consent is required, for the benefit of the benefice concerned.
The second series of provisions relates to the Tithe Act in connection with which your Lordships are aware that Queen
750
Anne's Bounty has obligations to incumbents, and there again there are a few provisions which were not sufficiently foreseen when that Act was passed, and which are provided for in this Measure; so the Bounty gets an additional administrative advantage. There is one other clause in the Measure which gives an indemnity to the Governors for payments they made which were proved to be irregular, although they were quite properly made in remuneration for services very adequately rendered to their Chairman of Committees and joint treasurers, mainly in connection with the tithe which came to Queen Anne's Bounty to collect and distribute before the Tithe Act was passed. Those payments, although properly made, were not in accordance with the regulations under which the Governors act in accordance with the terms of their Charter and this Measure indemnifies them for those payments so made.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Queen Anne's Bounty (Powers) Measure, 1939, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich.)
4.19 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICH: My Lords, I would like in a very few words to support what has been said by the Lord Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich in regard to this Measure. The Ecclesiastical Committee has reported this to be a merely administrative Measure, but I cannot consider that anything that concerns the National Church is of no importance to the community at large, even those whose religious adherence is given to some other body, and I think it is important that a Measure of this character should be passed. There are two points in the Measure which deserve attention. One relates to the man-power of the Church, and the other relates to the resources of the Church. It is a very common remark made to us that the Church might make better use of its resources, and that the Church does not employ its man-power to the best advantage. In regard to the resources of the Church, Queen Anne's Bounty desires to have greater freedom in dealing with parsonage houses. The diffi-

751
culty is that though the Church of England is ready to sell some of these overlarge parsonages the buyers do not come forward. This first Clause will go a long way towards alleviating that difficulty. Very often changes ought to be made in a parsonage house to make saleable the property. This Measure puts it into the power of Queen Anne's Bounty to spend money upon making these parsonages more acceptable to possible purchasers.
The other point that occurred to me of importance is the transference of some of the emoluments of one benefice to another. Before the Church of Assembly came into existence, I took the initiative in promoting a Bill with the great help of the late Lord Buckmaster to facilitate the union of benefices. That Bill became an Act, and has been once or twice adjusted by Measures of the Church Assembly. In this case as in so many others there have been changes in the law relating to tithe, each change professing to be final. New arrangements then have to be made when one benefice is required by a scheme to contribute after a union a portion of its stipend to another benefice. This clause gives Queen Anne's Bounty the opportunity of reviewing this question of stipends involved in the union of benefices in the light of things as they are to-day, and to make changes from what was arranged before the passing of the Tithe Act. In both these respects the object of the Measure is to make the Church of England more up to date in its methods.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ECCLESIASTICAL OFFICERS REMUNERATION MEASURE, 1939.
4.25 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. EDMUNDSBURY AND IPSWICH THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. EDMUNDSBURY AND IPSWICH moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Ecclesiastical Officers Remuneration Measure, 1939, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, this also is a domestic matter. Your Lordships will be aware that there are certain ecclesiastical officials who do duties and perform acts for individual churchmen for which fees are payable. These fees are regulated by Orders in
752
Council. Tables of fees have been drawn up in the past, as a rule, by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Lord Chancellor, and confirmed by His Majesty in Council. It is inevitable that tables of fees of that sort get out of date. New duties arise which impose work on these officials, and in some form or other they must be paid for the additional work they have to do. It was therefore decided that a Measure should be framed and presented to Parliament, after being passed by the Assembly, to enable fees to be adjusted from time to time.
The authorities have thought that this is entirely a matter for the Church of England and that it was unreasonable that the Lord Chancellor should be appointed to fix fees of officers doing ecclesiastical work. Therefore the present Measure has been drawn up and approved by the Church Assembly, and certified by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as one suitable to be passed. It gives power to the Archbishops, with the assistance of their Vicars-General, from time to time to adjust the fees of these diocesan officials and present them to the Assembly. If the Assembly passes them, they would be laid on the Table of each House of Parliament, and unless some Motion is moved that they should not be approved, they will naturally have the force of law. That is the whole of this simple Measure dealing with the remuneration of ecclesiastical officers, and I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Ecclesiastical Officers Remuneration Measure, 1939, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMPULSORY MILITARY TRAINING.
4,28 p.m.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL STANHOPE)THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL STANHOPE) moved to resolve, That this House approves the proposal of His Majesty's Government to introduce as soon as possible a system of compulsory military training as announced on 26th April; regards such a system as necessary for the safety of the country and the fulfilment of the undertakings recently given to certain

753
countries in Europe; and welcomes the fact that the Government is associating with this proposal fresh legislative powers to limit the profits of firms engaged mainly in armament production, and the assurance that in the event of war steps will be taken to penalise profiteering and to prevent additions to individual fortunes out of war created conditions.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, yesterday it was my duty to make to the House an important statement of policy on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and we were desirous that each House of Parliament should have the earliest opportunity of expressing its view of that policy and of showing to the world, if not unanimity, as we hope, then at least a very wide measure of general agreement. The opportunity to do so to-day has been afforded by my noble friend Lord Sempill, who has been good enough to postpone till next Monday the Motion on export credits—an extremely important subject—which he had placed on the Order Paper for to-day. I should like to express to him my thanks for his great courtesy in having met His Majesty's Government in this matter.
The statement which I made on behalf of the Government to your Lordships yesterday may be divided into three parts. The first indicated that we proposed to introduce a Bill to simplify the calling up of the Territorial Army and of the Reserves of the three Defence Services. It is a short Bill, and, as I hope it will soon be before this House, I do not propose to go into it in its details. Indeed I do not propose to go into the details of any of the measures which we propose. That, I suggest, it would be better to reserve until we have the Bills before us, and to-day to confine ourselves to a discussion of the broad general principles of the measures which are proposed.
In passing, however, I may say that it is only proposed to call up such parts of the Territorial Army and of the Reserves as the Government consider at any time necessary to reinforce the home defence of this country. Whether these numbers be large or small, it would obviously be unfair to men who have been patriotic enough to join, say, the Territorial Army, and who have given up their leisure and their holidays to rendering themselves efficient, to be called up for service for an indefinite period while their neighbours, and in some cases their
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competitors, carry on with their ordinary civil associations, profiting perhaps from their lack of a similar patriotic spirit. The only alternative is to replace these patriotic volunteers by a body of men taken from the castle, the mansion, the cottage, or the slum dwelling, one and all of whom should be required, without exception and without distinction, to undertake this national duty.
But it was not only the need to reinforce our home defence which has impelled the Government to take this momentous step. Apart from our previously existing obligations, both Imperial and international, which have been more than once defined in this House and elsewhere, we have in the past month taken on three major and entirely new obligations, those to Poland, to Rumania and to Greece. From all quarters of the world, and particularly from the Continent of Europe, evidence accumulated that we were not believed to be in earnest in our endeavours to fortify peace. It was said, what was the use of accumulating arms if there were not the men to handle them? It was borne in on His Majesty's Government that nothing could so carry conviction as to our strength of purpose, and our will and determination to fulfil to the full our new commitments, as the introduction of conscription into this country; and that our refusal to do so would inevitably leave in men's minds in other countries an element of doubt and that uncertainty which in itself is so often the cause of misunderstanding and of crisis.
Lord Snell, in a speech which he made yesterday to your Lordships and which I hope may not be found to represent the considered view either of the noble Lord himself or of the great Party to which he belongs, reminded the House that the Prime Minister had given a promise on behalf of His Majesty's Government that conscription would not be introduced in time of peace during the period of this Parliament, and he implied, if he did not even actually say, that we had broken faith with the Labour Party in not consulting them before we arrived at our decision. I regret that he should have reproached us with an accusation of breach of faith. In making that accusation he accused, of course, every member of the Government because the Government is after all only composed of those who are its members, and I am not aware

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that either I or my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack or my noble friend Lord Halifax or indeed any of those who sit on the Front Bench on this side of the House, have any less high a sense of honour than the noble Lord opposite or those who sit with him on the Opposition Front Bench. Is the present state of the world one that can be described as a time of peace when millions of men throughout Europe are standing to arms? Can it be described as a time of peace when the riches of every nation are being poured out in an ever-increasing flood in piling up armaments? So far from being accused of a breach of faith, I venture to think that we could justly have been accused of a breach of duty had we flinched from the steps which we now propose.
Let me remind your Lordships of the pace of recent events, of those new obligations so recently undertaken. Could we have postponed this step until after Herr Hitler had delivered his speech tomorrow? Had we done so, inevitably it would have been taken as a reply to that speech, whereas in point of fact it would have been nothing of the sort. Had we consulted Labour, as the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition proposed, those consultations would inevitably have taken time, probably a good deal of time, and it is clear that we should have put the Leaders of the Labour movement in a most embarrassing position. The responsibility obviously must rest with the Government of the day, and the circumstances being what they are we had no alternative but to carry out our duty and to act as we have done. The days have gone by when anyone but those who refuse to see is prepared to rely on a collective security which only exists on paper and has neither reality nor force.
When Lord Snell, however, stated that as the result of the Government's action the Labour Party was now free to take whatever line seemed to it right, let him remember this. There are many inequalities in this country to-day, and whatever political action may be taken by any political Party in future times, many of those inequalities, nature being what it is, must inevitably remain; but in one thing at least there is no inequality and that is in patriotism and love of country. Whatever the noble Lord may accuse me or my colleagues of, I cer-
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tainly am not going to accuse him or those who sit with him of any lack of patriotism either on this matter or anything else. Let him therefore think well before, in these days of international tension, he splits the country on a question such as this. Let him think whether he is strengthening or weakening the national effort of this country in the cause of peace. Let him think twice, and indeed thrice, whether, in the exceptional conditions in which we live, exceptional measures, as indeed they are for this country, are not only advisable but necessary.
The noble Lord remarked yesterday that this was the end of individual liberty as we knew it. May I remind him that our great neighbour France has as her national motto, "Liberty, equality, fraternity," and in that country, for many generations, they have had compulsory military training? That great Republic feels that it has indeed carried out its motto of "Liberty, equality and fraternity" in imposing this national duty on its citizens equally and without favour or affection. That is true indeed of other countries too—Switzerland, by no means an undemocratic country, Russia, on which the noble Lord and I may have different opinions—or at any rate some members on this side of the House have views differing from those held by those who sit normally on the other side—and indeed I believe I am right in saying that all the great countries of Europe at this moment have compulsory military service. I agree with him that, although the voluntary principle will continue to operate for the Regular Forces of the Navy, Army and Air Force and for the Territorial Army apart from the annual contingent, the step which we are now proposing is a momentous one, and a change which shows how great is the determination not only of the Government but of the country to carry out to the full the new obligations which have been undertaken. Everyone knows that, although we are accused of a policy of the encirclement of Germany and of Italy, we have no aggressive designs either against those two countries or indeed against any other countries. Our sole objective is to strengthen the cause of peace.
Let me turn for a few moments to the third part of our policy, the limitation of

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the profits of firms engaged mainly in armament production and the steps which we propose so as to prevent the accumulation of wealth as a result of a war. While it is true that the rich man's son and the poor man's son, the undergraduate, the workman and the unemployed, would equally serve in the Forces, there is undoubtedly a wide feeling in the country that it is wrong that while the young men serve and perhaps lose health and indeed life itself, other and older men should meanwhile accumulate wealth. The Government therefore propose to take steps to prevent such an eventuality and to prevent, so far as that is possible, anyone from profiting from the disaster which a great war would be not only to this but to every other country.
In asking your Lordships to approve the Resolution which I have placed upon the Paper, I ask this House to show to this country and to the world that the steps which the Government have announced are such as commend themselves to your Lordships, and I trust that we shall receive the support—I hope the unanimity of this House, but at any rate the support of the great mass of those who sit in your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That this House approves the proposal of His Majesty's Government to introduce as soon as possible a system of compulsory military training as announced on 26th April; regards such a system as necessary for the safety of the country and the fulfilment of the undertakings recently given to certain countries in Europe; and welcomes the fact that the Government is associating with this proposal fresh legislative powers to limit the profits of firms engaged mainly in armament production, and the assurance that in the event of war steps will be taken to penalise profiteering and to prevent additions to individual fortunes out of war created conditions.—(Earl Stanhope.)
4.41 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, because I feel that anything I may say will not have the least influence upon your minds I do not propose to inflict any prolonged agony upon either your Lordships or myself. When I was sent to live a somewhat lonely political life in your Lordships' House I assumed the responsibility
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of not speaking for myself alone but of trying as best I may honestly to interpret what the Party I represent thinks and believes, and to do that in the hope that it may on occasion be useful to your Lordships. We have tried to give that honest interpretation and the half-conscripted thin red line on these Benches have tried to fulfil a rather difficult task. I shall only ask your Lordships to be patient with me long enough to enable me very quickly to summarise the arguments which the Labour movement feels it ought to urge against conscription and against this new and disrupting episode in National Government policy.
The Labour Party does not condemn conscription on the ground that it is undemocratic. It has never done that. It condemns it on the ground that it is not necessary. We believe that it sacrifices the voluntary system without any real need and that it is not in the line of British tradition. I accept the view put forward by the noble Earl, that all of us, whatever class of life we are born into, have certain obligations to the State that we cannot disavow. All of us have lived with pride and happiness under the free Constitution and institutions of our country. We have a common heritage in its fine tradition, in its noble language, in an unexcelled literature, in its democratic institutions, which up till now have meant that British citizenship, with all that it is and all that it means to us, has been given to us conscription-free. When it is proposed that that system should be altered it represents a major change in our policy, and the Government must be very foolish if they expect that that change is going to be accepted without some inquiry as to what it means and as to whether it is necessary.
We believe that the voluntary system has proved to be, and remains, the best policy for this country. If that voluntary system has failed it is the duty of the Government to tell us where and when and to what extent. So far as I have the information, I believe that the Navy, based upon a voluntary system, is the strongest that exists in the world. There is no failure there that I can see. I believe that the. Air Force has as much man-power as it can deal with under a voluntary system. There is no failure there. If the Army has appeared to lag behind those two other forces, that was due to the bad or unsatisfactory condi-

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tions associated with Army life. So far as the Territorial Forces are concerned the inrush of man-power has been far greater than the equipment which the National Government have provided for its development. I am told—of course I have not the figures—that the recruiting for the Territorial Forces amounted to as much as two thousand men per day. There is no sign, I submit to your Lord ships, of a failure of the voluntary principle there. I believe, the Labour movement believes, that it could even now be made abundantly successful if a united effort were put behind it. Yet all this, by this measure of conscription, is now jeopardised—perhaps for ever destroyed.
National Service will no longer be a joyous subordination of the self to the common good; it will not longer be a spiritual expression of good citizenship; but it will be obedience to the coercive and rasping order of the drill sergeant. That represents some change, and, so far as we are permitted to express our opinion in your Lordships' House, we claim the right to express our very grievous doubt as to the wisdom of this policy at this time. Remember that there will be losses as well as gains. We believe that conscription will weaken, and not strengthen, our position in the world. I do not propose to repeat what I said yesterday, but I do not propose to retract anything, and I cannot help feeling that, if His Majesty's Government had got into some anxiety as to the way we are going, it would have been a perfectly easy thing to have indicated that to those with whom they have previously thought it worth while to consult in order to get their help for national purposes. Again, we have this feeling, that it took years of patient agitation in this House and elsewhere to persuade the Government to start a Ministry of Supply for the necessary material; but when they at last conceded the argument, they set up an inefficient and, as we believe, an anaemic imitation of a Ministry of Supply. But conscription all came in a night, and we believe that it was due to pressure from the cold-footed section of the Tory Party.
We may as well face the issue. It is no good saying that this represents only 200,000, or whatever the number is. That conceded, it will involve in due time complete conscription. I do not believe, with great deference to my friends who sit on
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the Cross Benches, that the military leader has yet been born who was satisfied with the number of men placed at his disposal. I believe his hunger for more men is insatiable until the supply has been exhausted. The argument in favour of conscription assumes that military needs are the only needs that a nation has. But I believe it to be as certain as anything can be in this uncertain world that if the whole manhood of the country were in uniform, there would be economic disorder and the social inequalities and the other material and spiritual evils from which we suffer would not be in the least degree improved.
There are other people than recalcitrant members of the Labour Party who do not believe in conscription. I find that Sir Auckland Geddes, who was the Director of Recruiting in 1916 and 1917 and afterwards Minister of National Service in 1917 and 1918, said:
"I hold the fully-matured opinion that, on balance, the imposition of military conscription added little, if anything, to the effective sum of our war efforts. If I were Chief of Staff of a foreign Power contemplating war against this country, I should spend money lavishly to stimulate British patriotic societies to demand conscription. Why? Because our adoption of conscription would inevitably diminish our naval and air preparations."
And there are other authorities whom I might quote to your Lordships to justify my plea that the need for conscription has not yet been proved.
My real responsibility here to-day is, in quite a few words, to try to explain the difficulty that the ordinary trade unionist working in his shop has in regard to this important matter. We believe the economic life of the nation must inevitably be weakened by conscription. We live by finance and by commerce, by the maintenance of our credit as well as by our fighting Services, and conscription will draw upon labour strength and the power of production will be decreased. I understand that one reason for promoting conscription is to make a gesture to foreign countries that we are serious. I could imagine better gestures. If His Majesty's Government, representing this capitalist country, had produced, say, a capital levy, that would have been a gesture indeed which would have impressed modern civilisation.
Now a general word before I reach the trade unionist position. I have no ethical

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objection to every man serving his country in the best way in which his capacities permit. In the ancient Greek cities, for example, every citizen had to undertake military service. Yes, but the Greek citizen was himself a landed proprietor, who defended the land that actually belonged to him. The slaves were never called upon to serve, and no one who had nothing to defend was ever called upon to bear the risks and burdens of war. In Rome the practice was the same: her armies were armies of citizen proprietors; they had a real stake in the country. But, while every man may have a duty to the State, the State also has a duty to every man, and I should find it difficult to go into the Welsh valleys and into the depressed areas and speak to young men who had been left to grow up like weeds in the world, about their duty to a State that had neglected them.
But let us see what will happen after conscription. I have said that labour power for productive purposes will be decreased. Here is where the trade union difficulty begins. It will mean that there will be a shortage of workers in the factories; then there will be, so the trade unionists think, another call for dilution. The standards of life that the trade unionists have built up throughout the country will be jeopardised, craft efficiency will be reduced, and that they do not like. Suppose that it were proposed that, because there is a crisis, a hundred new Labour Peers should suddenly be sent into your Lordships' House. I think your Lordships would say: "We had better bear the half-dozen ills we have than accept a hundred that we know not of." But the trade unionist has to remember what happened before: that when the need has been supplied, then the industry is choked with imported, inefficient men who will offer bad service for low pay; the standard of wages will be reduced, and there will then be a repetition of the odious campaign that followed the last War, that trade unionists were slacking and could not be induced to work.
I am trying to put as carefully as I can the general view of the trade unionists in the country. It is no use ignoring it, and it is my duty to try to tell you what it is. That, I think, summarises the anxieties that the labour worker in a factory has in this matter. He is not unpatriotic. He is not unwilling to do what he can for his nation. His record will disprove that.
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But we all of us feel that the spiritual traditions of our country are involved, and that the price that we are having to pay is due to the calamitous foreign policy of the National Government. In my closing words I would like to ask the country to note that so long as this Government exists we may continue to flounder from one crisis to another, and what the end will be no man can say. But the call upon us now is to abandon the liberties that we once enjoyed, which were once the strength of the nation and the envy of the world, and to protect which all of us were prepared to give the last full measure of devotion.
5.1 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Crewe greatly regrets that owing to a slight bronchial affection he is unable to be in your Lordships' House, to-day, to address you on this important matter. I venture to speak in his place, although I do not claim in any way to speak in the representative capacity which attaches to him. With regard to the Mobilisation Bill, which is also to be introduced in a few days, there will be, I am sure, no division of opinion in any part of this House as to its necessity, and I have no doubt it will be passed easily through both Houses of Parliament.
With regard to military conscription, there are some of your Lordships, no doubt—and there is certainly a school of thought in the country—who consider that general military service is a good thing in itself, apart from any question of necessity, or critical international conditions, or the needs of national defence. There are some who think that it is a good thing for all the youth of the nation to pass through military service, that the discipline is wholesome, that the training is in some respects useful, that there are advantages to the national physique and to the national morale, that there is a measure of class equality enforced which is in itself desirable, and that, apart altogether from the necessities of defence, conscription is in itself good. For my own part, I do not hold that view, but rather the opposite view. It depends upon the kind of nation that we wish to see, and I would submit to your Lordships that a nation of citizens of free and independent mind is better, in spite of all its drawbacks, than a nation which is drilled and thereby given to some extent a trend

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towards subservience, which, in spite of all advantages, such training in certain directions confers.
I was passing a few days ago through Italy, and there one sees, stencilled on the walls of many houses throughout the villages and towns of Italy, many of the slogans of the Fascist party, and among them is conspicuous the favourite motto of Signor Mussolini: "Credere, Obbedire, Combattere"—"Believe, Obey, Fight." That is the kind of mentality which he wishes to impress upon the whole of the Italian nation. Be credulous: accept what you are told! Obey, do not consider your own wishes! Fight: be militaristic, whenever called upon to fight, whatever enemy your leaders may select! That frame of mind creates, I submit, a degraded nation, mentally and spiritually emasculated, and any tendencies in that direction, to make credulity, obedience, and militarism national characteristics, is of no service to a people, but on the other hand the greatest injury that can be inflicted upon it. It has been a wise instinct of the British nation throughout its history to look with the greatest suspicion upon any measures of compulsion, and to consider that compulsory and general military service is not an advantage but a sacrifice. It is a sacrifice that may, indeed, be necessary. At times it may be necessary to sacrifice one kind of liberty in order to preserve another—to sacrifice some measure of personal liberty in order to make secure national liberty. It is a sacrifice nevertheless, and the burden of proof lies upon those who would require that sacrifice. The burden of proof does not lie upon those who appeal for liberty. It lies upon those who would propose measures that would infringe liberty.
I have said that occasion may arise in which this sacrifice is necessary. There was clearly such necessity at the time of the Great War, and, as it happens, I myself had to take certain responsibility in that regard. In 1916, when it became clear that compulsory military service was essential, the Government of which I was a member determined to introduce it, and the then Home Secretary, Sir John Simon, resigned because he disapproved of that policy. I was appointed to succeed him in that office, and had to assist the then Prime Minister, Mr. Asquith, in passing a Con-
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scription Bill through Parliament, and, as Home Secretary, in helping to administer it. So I shall not be suspected of rejecting measures of this character on any theoretical or a priori ground. I only ask that the case should be clearly made out before we make this grave departure from national tradition, and the one question to my mind is this: At the present juncture how are we to obtain the maximum of national strength in order to meet the perils that surround us?
Now, the limiting factor in our national strength is not at the present time the supply of men. The limiting factor is the question of equipment and training. You can obtain any number of men if you appeal to the nation in the right way. So far as equipment is concerned, many members of this House—the noble Lord who has just spoken has referred to it—have advocated again and again, for months past, the creation of a Ministry of Supply. I have myself ventured to trouble your Lordships with observations strongly urging, months ago, the creation of a Ministry of Supply. In the other House the Liberal Party have been pressing for that continually. Great authorities in this House have given voice to the same desire. The Government obstinately and determinedly resisted that demand, and only now have they belatedly surrendered to that pressure. But the question of equipment and of facilities for training is still the limiting factor.
There is no question now of creating an army of millions, as in 1916 and the years which preceded. If it were in the national interest to create now an army of millions, and if conscription was necessary for that purpose, then I think it ought to be supported. I feel no doubt upon that. If it were essential—it has not yet been shown to be essential—at this juncture to create a vast army like the Kitchener Armies, then I can understand that a measure of conscription should be proposed and should be adopted, possibly at this very moment. I should not oppose it in principle. It is only a question of fact whether such a step is desirable. It is not a question of the small numbers which are concerned in maintaining our air defences. And there is the great change in the national position compared with previous generations and previous centuries—the development of aircraft. The strength of

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this country has always remained in the fact that it has been an island in the sea, but the air has no islands, and therefore the whole strategic position of this country has been changed. But, there again, it is not a question for that reason of creating a vast army of millions, for there can be no question of mass invasion from the air, and so far as the air position is concerned, as I have said, the question is one of comparatively small numbers of men.
Nor does anyone at present favour the creation of armies such as the Kitchener Armies, for the economic reasons that have just been given by the noble Lord, Lord Snell. Always this country, when it has been a member of a European alliance in days gone by, has provided an immense source of strength to that alliance on the economic and financial side. It has been the great area of supplies and the great area of financial strength. This country naturally has to take its full share in the actual fighting and make the sacrifices that may be necessary, but not to such an extent that we should diminish the great economic resources which are at the disposal of the whole of the combined effort. It is well known that in order to win a long war you must not deplete your industrial, economic and financial resources too much. And therefore it is not proposed at the present time to adopt conscription in order to raise armies of millions of men. The Government wisely sought power, which was readily granted, to double the Territorial Army, and that was an admirable measure which can be carried through without difficulty. You call for a million civilian workers for air-raid precautions and they will be obtained if the appeal is properly made without great delay, and even two millions could be secured if that were shown to be necessary. And the 200,000 young men who are now to be raised could also be easily obtained if the appeal were made to them, without the smallest doubt. In the Great War, before conscription was introduced in 1916, in this country and in the British Empire no fewer than five million men volunteered—a military effort which has never been made by any nation in the whole history of the world, and was not made by any other nation at that time.
Why, then, is it necessary at this juncture to impose a measure of compulsion
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in order to raise a force of 200,000 men? We are told that it is necessary as a demonstration to impress the world. I am bound to confess my doubt whether so small a force as this will be very impressive to countries each of which has an army of millions. Rather it may be said: "This is the British war effort—200,000 men. It rather shows that they are not very serious about the matter than that they are very serious about it." Furthermore, there is the fact that the Government did give a most specific pledge, many times repeated, and repeated even so recently as last month, that no measure of military conscription would be introduced in the present Parliament in time of peace. Now they say that we were in time of peace last month, but not this month. It appears to me to be a most unfortunate incident that this pledge should have been given so repeatedly and in such unqualified terms, and should now be infringed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM): Would the noble Viscount kindly tell me what is the pledge last month that he refers to?
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: I am afraid I have not got the quotation.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord only mentioned one—on March 29 last, and I have hunted through the Parliamentary Debates and not found it.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: I do not know that it has been challenged even by the Prime Minister yesterday.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount misunderstands me. I am not denying that the promise has been made. What I am seeking to find out is whether the promise made last month in the House of Commons is the one to which the noble Viscount referred.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: I am very sorry, but I have not got the quotation here. But I have seen it repeatedly mentioned in the Press in the last few days that a promise was repeated a month ago in the House of Commons, re-affirming the pledge which had been previously given on various occasions that such a measure would not be introduced in the present Parliament in time of peace. If I am wrong about that I must express my regret.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will deal with the matter later.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Well then, if it were not last month, even if it were a few months ago, the question is whether this is to be regarded as not being peace time. The action that has been taken now has been taken without consultation with the Party to whom that pledge was given—namely, the trade unionists and the Labour Party. If it was desired that there should be unanimity in the nation for a measure of this kind, as it is desired, it would clearly have been expedient that the Opposition Parties should have been taken into consultation before public action was definitely decided upon; and I believe that both my friends of the Liberal Party in the House of Commons and the members of the Labour Party have greatly regretted that they were not in any way consulted before so grave a measure as this was carried into effect.
It is quite true that circumstances might arise, and indeed in the opinion of many have now arisen, when, although no actual war has broken out, the danger is so great that conscription ought properly to be brought in, and those very circumstances would render it highly inexpedient, and indeed impossible, that a General Election should be held at such a moment. But surely that ought to have been foreseen at the time when it was under consideration whether such a pledge should be given. Whether it is a month ago or whether it is a year ago is not the essential matter—it should surely have been foreseen that circumstances might arise during the present Parliament, and without an Election, although there was no actual war, when it would be in the national interest to produce a measure of compulsory military service. My quarrel with His Majesty's Government at this moment is not so much that they are introducing this measure. If they think it is in the national interest to do so, it is their duty to do it. But my quarrel is that the pledge should have been given in such unqualified terms without foreseeing the circumstances which in their opinion have now arisen. The consequence is that in future when Governments do give pledges of that kind, no one will know whether they are to be accepted as definite or not.
One further point with regard to profits from armaments. When the great de-
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fence programme was instituted, with the support of all Parties—and many of us had been urging it for some time—the assurance was given, again in unqualified terms, that such steps would be taken as would prevent armament manufacturers obtaining any undue profits. It was most definitely asserted that the Government would take adequate pains to secure that there should be no profiteering in the armaments industry if Parliament would accede to this vast expenditure. Parliament acceded, and the Government measures were adopted. But now when conscription is to be introduced the Government come forward again and say: "If you will pass this measure of conscription we will undertake that the armaments industry shall be so controlled that no undue profits shall be reaped." If it is right now, it was right then, and if these further measures are now practicable they should have been adopted then. They amount to a censure on the measures adopted at the outset.
I do not wish to detain your Lordships, but I am bound to speak candidly what is in my mind, although I fear it may be unwelcome to your Lordships. It is right at the present time that the maximum national effort should be put forth in order to meet the dangers which face us. The voluntary principle is, in my judgment, valuable in itself and ought not to be abandoned unless clear necessity is shown. It may be necessary to depart from it as it was in 1916, but adequate reason should be given. The reasons that have been given—namely, that you wish to enlist 200,000 young men to get training for six months and afterwards serve in the Territorials, and the further reason that we are making a demonstration to the world of our great earnestness in this matter—are, in my judgment, hardly adequate, though I can well understand that others take a different view, for so grave a departure. The arguments which have been adduced by the noble Earl who introduced this Resolution appear to me to be of a permanent character. The noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, gave reasons which would apply at all times with regard to class equality and the other arguments he so ably stated. There was practically nothing in what he said that would not apply this year, next year, and for all time. Yet the Government have stated in

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both Houses that this is to be a purely temporary measure.
In conclusion I would ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, if he is to conclude this debate, whether he will tell us again if this measure is really intended to be a temporary one or whether the arguments that have been advanced in its support are not such as would lead to the conclusion that this system ought to be adopted in perpetuity in this country. I read the words used yesterday by the noble Earl who leads this House, and the same words were used in the Government declaration in another place:
"… the Government have come to the conclusion that to meet these new and, I hope, exceptional conditions some measure of compulsory training has, for the time being, become necessary. I say 'for the time being' because I wish to emphasize"—
the noble Earl does not merely state it, he states it with emphasis—
"that the Government's proposals … will be of a temporary character."
He suggested that the Bill will be for a period of three years, which may be either shortened or prolonged. Once you accept the principle of military conscription it will be hard to revoke it and very easy to expand it. Therefore I attach importance to the request that we should have from the Government to-day some declaration as to whether they really mean that as soon as the international atmosphere is sufficiently clear and the condition of the world has returned to some measure of normality, this system of military conscription will not be permanently imposed upon the nation but will be subject to repeal.
5.26 p.m.
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: My Lords, I am one of those who support the Government in the proposals which they are making to us to-day and I do so for the reason that I think we are now adopting the most hopeful means that we can devise for the purpose of avoiding the outbreak of active warfare in Europe and at the same time bringing to our side many people who at the present time feel they cannot sufficiently rely upon our promises of support. It is credibly reported to me that not long ago one of the envoys of a Balkan State was told in conversation with Herr Hitler that he had no reason at all to expect any help in his defence from England because
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England had not taken the means to defend herself. Whether the story is absolutely correctly reported or not it at least states a truth which we must all recognise.
As far as I am concerned I feel a great sense of unreality in this debate because of the fact that we are now confronted with what is in my opinion the greatest peril that the nation has ever had to face in its long history, and at a time when it has taken up a whole series of commitments far greater in extent and degree than has ever been contemplated before. I listened with great respect to the noble Viscount who has just sat down. It is one of the few occasions on which I am sorry he has been the spokesman of the Liberal Party, because he has been giving us to-day a point of view totally different from that which was given to a meeting of the Liberal Party in Scotland yesterday by the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian. If the noble Marquess had been here to-day to speak for the Liberal Party we should have heard totally different advice given to your Lordships in this matter. Lord Lothian's point of view, as stated in his speech yesterday, was to the effect that in normal times he as a Liberal would take exception to the adoption of conscription, but that these were not normal times and accordingly he thought conscription at the present time must be adopted by the country for its own safety and for the purpose of fulfilling our obligations to our friends.
In discussing these matters nobody would question the patriotism of any of the political Parties in this country. I am perfectly certain everyone has the deepest possible respect for the attitude which Lord Snell has adopted to-day. We recognise that it is a sincere expression both of his own opinion and of the opinion of those for whom he speaks, and I am perfectly certain these convictions have been adopted from motives of the highest possible patriotism. They must therefore be met by reasonable arguments. So far as I am concerned I recognise and appreciate the point of view that is taken by a pacifist. He has the view that war is entirely wrong and that nothing should be done either by the supplying of munitions or men to encourage the waging of war. But there are very few people of that point of view in this country and certainly it is not from any attitude of that

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kind that the Labour Party speaks to-day. They are not against war. On the contrary, they have been urging war for several years. They were very disappointed that we did not go to war over Manchukuo. They urged us to go to war over the question of Abyssinia and again over Czecho-Slovakia, and recently they have welcomed the series of commitments which have been undertaken by the Government to support other States which may readily involve us in war. A Party with those opinions must necessarily take the very utmost possible means to make war successful. And you must not take these means on too narrow a margin. You must ensure for yourself that you have the greatest possible hope of coming out of the conflict with success.
I am surprised to hear from Lord Snell that anybody to-day thinks that we are fitting ourselves to wage such a war as may be impending with sufficient numbers. What are we actually doing? We have an Army which is far too small for our needs when you consider what our commitments are all over the world. We are endeavouring at the present time to increase our Territorial Army and recruiting is going forward, no doubt speedily having regard to the many impediments put in the way of recruiting, but very slowly in relation to our great needs. Many appeals for recruits have been quite justly met with the reply that one person ought not to have to sacrifice himself in order that another person may shirk. I have the greatest possible sympathy with the man who says, "I refuse the join the Territorial Army at the present time while other people continue to enjoy their pleasures and comforts, and I am asked to give up my time to the defence of the country." I think there is a great deal to be said for those persons who are disinclined to make sacrifices in those circumstances. The fact that you are not asking for everybody is a deterrent to the recruiting that is going on at the present time. So many people—and I find this all over the country—say: "When the Government really think the situation is dangerous they will come for us." So long as that situation exists we are not putting forward the effort which is necessary to make our cause successful. You can see from the newspaper reports in all parts of the Continent of Europe that our attitude in this matter is impressing itself
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upon those who naturally would seek to join us.
In order to realise our needs you have only to compare the conditions now with the conditions that obtained during the last War. How do we stand to-day as compared with 1914? Japan was our ally in 1914. Japan to-day is decidedly unfriendly and may be hostile. The condition of things in the Pacific, indeed, is such that if there were war they might prevent any forces from leaving New Zealand or Australia to come to our aid. What a difference that would make in the forces which we would be able to deploy in a conflict. Again Italy was with us in the last War, to-day she would be against us. What would that mean? It means that France, which had our aid in maintaining half her line in the last War, would now have to fight on at least three fronts. She would have to fight upon her eastern front: she would have to fight on the front between France and Italy and on her front between Tunis and Libya. There are three fronts at least she will have to man. But she may also have to fight upon the front of the Pyrenees and again in Spanish Morocco.
What is our situation? In addition to helping France we shall, I think, have to maintain a large force in Egypt and Palestine, and in addition we may have to land an Army in Spain. When you are faced with all these possible developments of events, how can you possibly risk slackness? Are not you compelled to take every possible means to make yourself safe? This is not a time for chopping arguments as to whether the Government ought at some previous point of time to have warned people that such an occasion might arise. To-day the country is in peril and you know not at what moment war may break out. In those circumstances I say it is incumbent upon us if we do our duty, to follow the methods which have been adopted by all countries that are fighting for their existence and which indeed have been taken by those countries that are menacing us to-day.
I agree with my noble friend who said that the voluntary principle is something which I should like myself to adhere to, but there is in politics something which corresponds to the Gresham law in connection with currency—bad money always drives out good money. Similarly bad

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principles very often drive out good ones. No matter how good the voluntary system is, if your enemies take up the bad principle of conscription and threaten to overwhelm you, what can you do? The only thing you can do is to adopt conscription also in order that you may be in a position to defend yourself.
There is one other point that I should like to put before the House and it is this. We do not know When this threatened war will break out. It will come upon us like a thief in the night. Herr Hitler has made perfectly plain what he would propose to do. He said he would strike at: his enemies like lightning out of the dark. That was the expression he used. I have not the silghtest doubt that if this calamity comes upon us it will come suddenly. How are you going to face such a situation? Are you going to do it as we did in the last War after all the experience we have had? What a waste of precious lives it means and what a burden of suffering and sorrow for the people at home. Carry your minds back to the last War. How many lives would have been saved if it had not been for the fact that we had to deploy thin lines as against the masses of troops that came upon us from the enemy side. Recall what happened to Kitchener's first hundred thousand—the flower of the race burnt up in the furnace of war. But if there had been a million of them before war was declared, there never would have been a war. If there had been 500,000 at the time the battle of Loos was fought, thousands of people would have been alive to-day who are buried beneath the soil of France. You cannot afford to take risks in this matter. Recall again the condition of things at Gallipoli. There, if at the time when the project of landing in Gallipoli was first mooted we had had 20,000 men to spare, we could have taken that peninsula and concluded the war two years earlier. But because we had not got the men, and had to take the matter up at a later period when the enemy was prepared, we had to send 500,000 men to Gallipoli and something like 200,000 were killed or injured. We came away after a heroic but complete failure and all those lives were sacrificed for nothing.
I do beg you, my Lords, and all those who have these matters to consider, out of mercy for the people you are going to send into the field to give them the
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strongest possible contingents you can muster and all the supports you can find for them. Although conscription is said to be against British tradition, and we would not resort to it if we were not compelled, at any rate such a device is nothing of which we need be ashamed. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, has acknowledged that it is in no way undemocratic. When it is said that by voluntary recruitment you raised 5,000,000 men in the last War, it must be remembered that that was after war began. It is before this calamity begins, and in order to prevent it if we can, that we wish to raise the men, and I know of no way in which that can be done except by calling upon all the young men of the country to respond to the nation's call. In that way it seems to me you will save many lives and much sorrow and suffering.
5.43 p.m.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: My Lords, it was a great pleasure to me to hear from the lips of the noble Earl who moved the Motion tonight those very arguments which I feared it might be my task to address to his, if not deaf, at any rate unheeding ear. By accepting them he has made my task simpler and relieved me of the necessity of addressing your Lordships at any length or of stressing the gravity of the position in which we find ourselves. The noble Lords who sit on my left appear to think that by adopting some principle of compulsion our liberty might be affected. Have they paused to think that every year—almost every month—the area of this world in which people may think, may live, may worship as they please, grows less? Any minute, it is clear, our own vital interests may be imperilled.
We may be called upon to carry out those guarantees which we have signed. We may be faced with demands made by a country which, in the words of its leader, has spent five years on the task of rearming itself. It is a country whose people have their lives, their thoughts, their energies directed to one end, and to one end alone—the expansion of the great country to which they belong. That is what we are faced with. I suggest that the only proper answer we can give is something greater than the proposals which the Government have put forward. I

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suggest that nothing short of a compulsory National Register, giving the Government power to call on each man and woman at will, can be adequate to meet the needs of our present case. By that I mean that the organisation of our defences, both military and civilian, should as far as possible be placed on a compulsory basis.
I agree that in regard to the existing Territorial Army that may be difficult. Whilst speaking of the Territorial Army I would like to deal with the point made by my noble friend who sits in front of me, that recruiting was so satisfactory that we need have no fear that the men would not be obtained. What is the position? As I understand it we need these men and we need them badly. The Government will not deny that. The position appears to be that in a month we have secured 40,000 men. But that is in the first rush of enthusiasm, in the full intensity of your recruiting campaign. Even if that rate is maintained, many months must elapse before we get the men we need—months which His Majesty's Government must by now have realised we can ill afford to lose. I think, also, if we are going to deal with the question of the Territorial Army at all, we must accept the fact that gallant, loyal, devoted men though they be, they are not given that proper opportunity of training themselves which they ought to have. I do not see how, with two or three attendances at drill each week, and a fortnight in camp, they can be expected to compete with forces which have had two years' continuous training.
Nor do I consider that the method of recruitment which is being adopted is likely to meet with success. It is one of those typical illustrations of the muddle and confusion of the voluntary principle that we find, for example, that a bulb grower is exempt at the age of 25. If a man makes brass bedsteads he is exempt at the age of 30. A gentleman who is called a progress chaser—a gentleman whom the Government may perhaps be able to employ—finds himself also exempt at the age of 30. I suggest that we should leave the realms of fantasy and illusion and face facts. If we want men we should institute compulsory measures to see that we secure them.
I will now attempt to deal very briefly with one or two points made against the
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Motion. My noble friend Lord Snell spoke about the harsh, coercive voice of the drill sergeant. I have not found him any less harsh or coercive when ordering those who have enlisted under the voluntary principle. A further suggestion seems to be that drilling is disadvantageous to our national morale. Yet noble Lords who suggest that, say at the same time that if only you stimulate your recruiting you will get your men. If you get your men and drill them under their system it is not going to do them any harm, but get them under another system and drill them, and it will do them the greatest possible harm! That is not a very convincing argument, I venture to suggest. I was surprised, too, to hear it suggested that they might support the compulsory principle in times of war but they would not support it in times of peace. Can any argument be more dangerous, more utterly fallacious? We admit that the position is grave; we admit, as admit we must, that previous experience has shown that one remedy, and one remedy alone, can be of any use. What do we say? We say that the same remedy may be applied again, but we make one condition: it must be withheld until it is almost certainly too late!
Have the noble Lords who oppose this Motion considered the waste of the voluntary system? Have they considered that the Regular Army in 1914 was nearly obliterated because of the lack of trained reserves to support it? Does not every military graveyard in France and Flanders bear some witness to this principle of waste? Are there not witnesses there: men not only in the Regular Army but also men who were sent out inadequately trained, who through no fault of their own lost their lives? I have no desire to strike any sentimental note, but if we owe anything to these men—and that cannot be denied—we surely owe it to them, we must owe it to them, to see that slaughter involving such waste and such injustice should never be repeated if we can prevent it.
I was surprised to hear my noble friend Lord Snell say that he did not consider compulsion any violation of the democratic principle. If so, all the better; my task is made all the easier. I understand, however, that there is a feeling of inequality and injustice. I cannot see that the principle that there should be a

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common sacrifice without distinction of class or rank in a common cause can be any other than a noble ideal and, in addition, the only sound and the only practicable policy for us to adopt. I have no more to say. I would merely stress, if I might, that, great though our assets may be, great also are our responsibilities. And I speak not merely in a material sense. It is our duty to show the countries of the world that, just as there are physical boundaries which cannot be crossed without our consent, so there is a cultural and moral dominion which no enemy must ever be permitted to invade.
5.54 p.m.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a very few moments. I have felt a great deal of anxiety as to my attitude on an occasion of this kind. I share to the full the criticism that has been made by Lord Snell and Viscount Samuel of the methods by which the Government have chosen to introduce this proposal. I hope I shall hear from the noble and learned Lord Chancellor presently when he thinks the time of peace passed into a time of war. Unquestionably—I have not got the date, which I believe my noble friend Viscount Samuel has now, on which the last pledge was given—the Government did pledge themselves in the most precise and definite way that in time of peace and during this Parliament they would not introduce conscription. They say, both here and elsewhere, that this is no longer a time of peace and therefore their pledge does not bind them. I cannot help feeling that the change in the situation has not been so remarkable as to change the character of peace into the character of war. But, of course, if the Government have arrived at the conclusion, whether rightly or wrongly, that the defence of the country requires this measure, then, whatever their pledge is, they are perfectly right to introduce the measure. But I must say that in those circumstances I think that the leaders of the Opposition have a very strong ground of complaint that they were not, at any rate, shown the courtesy of consultation before this step was taken. It seems to me a procedure thoroughly characteristic of the Government: they wait and wait until it is almost too late, and then they do something in an immense hurry which
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might have been done much more effectively at an earlier stage.
But when you come to the substance of this proposal, of course I think you must admit that there is a great deal to be said for a compulsory system when you are in time of war or in immediate preparation for war. No one who had anything to do with the Government in 1915 and 1916 can doubt that grave inconvenience—to put it no higher—was cause by haphazard enlistment, so that often the very people who could least be spared were the people who went first to the war and unfortunately did not return. On the other hand, this measure does not merely propose to deal with that question. It is only going to take a very small section of the population and compel them to enlist. There will not be, as far as I can see, any means of controlling enlistment under this measure any more than there would be under the purely voluntary system, and I must say I share Lord Samuel's view that compulsion is an exceedingly distasteful expedient for us in this country. I do not forget that in the Great War the man who resisted compulsion most strenuously was Lord Kitchener, on the ground that he was satisfied that men fought much more effectively if they were voluntarily enlisted than if they were compulsorily enlisted. I do not know whether experience confirms that opinion, but I seem to have heard those who were actually engaged in the fighting say that the later troops, though they were as brave and devoted as any men could be, were not the equal of the earlier troops engaged in the War.
But one cannot doubt that this matter is not only a question of distaste in general for compulsion. I have seen something of the younger people who feel very strongly against this proposal. I do not say they all do, but a certain section do, and the foundation of their feeling is that they do not really know what the Government are after. That is the real trouble at this moment and I cannot help feeling that the Government, by the procedure they have adopted, so far from allaying that distrust have tended to increase it. For that reason I have a great sympathy with the attitude that Lord Snell has adopted, though in fact I am not able to accept the conclusion to which he came.
After all, we are, whether it is peace or war, in a position of great anxiety.

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Nobody doubts it: the situation is exceedingly serious. We are awaiting a pronouncement which is to be made tomorrow, and Heaven knows what that may bring. The situation is, I should think, more serious now than any situation in which we have ever found ourselves in time of technical peace—whatever the Government may choose to call it—during our whole history. And if in that state of things the responsible Government of the country come down to Parliament and say: "In our judgment here is a measure which we think is essential for the safety of the country," and not only that, but "we find it necessary not only for the safety of the country but also in order to allay the doubts and misunderstanding which are felt on the Continent of Europe as to what our attitude really is"—if they come and make that statement I confess it appears to me that any private individual who declines to give them the power for which they ask is assuming an immense and too great a responsibility.
I think it is a melancholy argument of the Government that this step is necessary in order to convince foreign nations that we really do mean what we say. There was a time, indeed all my life until quite lately, when, if the British Government made a statement as to what they would do in certain circumstances, no country and no Government in the world had the slightest doubt that that is what they would do. That, apparently, is not now wholly the case. Therefore, although I have great sympathy with what has been said both as to the technical necessity of this measure, and the distastefulness of the expedient proposed, I feel bound to support the proposal made by the Government. It is, as Lord Snell has truly said, the calamitous result of the foreign policy of the National Government; but if we were now to refuse this demand, and this House were to reject the proposal, I cannot doubt that the result of that would be even more calamitous than anything which can possibly follow from this expedient.
6.3 p.m.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, before this debate concludes I would like to be allowed, just in a very few sentences, to put a point of view which I think has hardly been sufficiently stressed. It is this: that quite obviously
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this measure of the Government is not actuated by military necessity, and that if, as Lord Home has just said, the Government should make every effort, this measure cannot be considered to be anything like even a big effort. One can understand this panicky feeling, which the Government seem to have, inducing them to have conscription for all men of military age; but this is nothing of the kind: this is merely the thin end of the wedge of depriving people of their liberty of choice. Why should we always follow the Dictators' methods? This is another instance of it, and, as everybody knows, a large military system founded on compulsion is in itself the enemy of democracy. Nobody has put that better than Sir Henry Maine in his book, and nobody can accuse of him of being a Liberal.
One has got to look elsewhere for the Government's motive. I think it is perfectly clear. They wanted to make one more rattle of the sword before twelve o'clock to-morrow and that I think is a most unfortunate bit of diplomacy. We are dealing with a very extraordinary man. We are dealing with a man who has enormous uncanny power over the people. We are trying to meet him in various ways. We failed in many ways, and threats and aggravation can never make him more reasonable. We are not impressing our allies by this measure, but quite undoubtedly we are by this evening making Herr Hitler put in his speech passages which will make the possibility of accommodation still more difficult.
On all grounds, I cannot conceive the utility of this measure. In addition to those that I have mentioned there is splitting the trade unionists away from the support that they have very willingly given. It is most unfortunate at a moment of this sort, if the Government consider it as grave as they declare, that you should create a split in public opinion. It is the very last moment to do that. I do not know what influence has been brought to bear on the Government, except that of the clamour of some of their supporters, but I think it is very unfortunate, from a political and diplomatic point of view, that they should have succumbed to pressure, and at this very critical moment made a gesture which on one side can be ridiculed and on the other side may lead to very dangerous consequences.
6.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, the noble Lord who has just sat down did not, I think, have the good fortunte to hear the speech of Lord Snell, or he would have known what pressure was exercised on the Government to induce them to adopt this measure which he deprecated. The noble Lord said that it came from the cold-footed section of the Tory Party. Belonging to that section as I do, while I do not claim for it the credit for this measure, I do feel very proud. I remember that it was exactly what was said in 1914 about the people who supported Lord Roberts. I dare say the noble Lord may have read the letters which have appeared in the newspapers. There was one from a lady who described parting from a Prussian General at the beginning of July, 1914. She asked him whether there was to be a war, and his reply was: "Madam, if Britain followed Lord Roberts' advice there can be no war." I believe that is abundantly true, and that the best thing that the Government have done for a very long time is to take the measure which they have taken—inadequate as I believe it to be—to make it clear to the Continent that we are prepared to do, before war breaks out, in the hope of preventing war, what we know we should have to do if war did break out.
Why all this talk about conscription as something strange, and unknown, and degrading? Do noble Lords opposite really think that this nation was degraded as a result of conscription in 1916? So far from there being any sign of that, I remember, being in the other House, how each Election resulted in a higher majority, so far as I was concerned. Why should it be said that what every other nation accepts is degrading to Englishmen, Irishmen or Scotsmen? Surely there is a lot of nonsense talked about the degrading character of National Service. As was very well pointed out by the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, the voice of the drill sergeant is no sweeter when addressed to a volunteer than when addressed to a conscript. The means that he has to achieve his end are the same. But what I do think it is fair to say—and I hope that the noble Field Marshal there may talk to us on this subject—is that it is perfectly criminal to send abroad, to meet trained professional soldiers, men who have voluntarily given their spare time, perhaps an hour a week,
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with a fortnight's drill in the summer, and to suggest that they are adequately prepared to meet men of that kind.
The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who, I am sorry to say, has left the House, asked why we should follow the Dictators' methods. It is news to me that we are following the Dictators' methods. We are following, for example, the methods of Belgium, and I suppose if there is one thing more certain than another it is that Belgium saved democracy at the beginning of the last War. Belgium saved democracy because she had the whole manhood of the nation, who stood up against incredible odds and gave the rest of the world time to rally to the help of France. Turning to the comparison with 1914, I am sure the noble Lord will not misunderstand me if I suggest that he might recall the difference in the attitude of the Opposition then to the steps taken by the Government, and of the Opposition to-day. I do not suggest for a moment that it is not fair and right for him to point out the disagreement that exists. But he must remember that in 1914 we who were then in the Opposition were divided from the Government more bitterly than at any time, I suppose, in the recollection of any living man. And yet, directly the danger of war arrived all political disputes were abandoned. I suggest respectfully to the noble Lords who have spoken from the different sections of the Opposition, that the time has come now when we have a chance—not a certainty—of avoiding war, and we can only avoid war by showing that the whole nation is united behind the Government.
It is not merely a question of providing an adequate force. I think the noble Lord quite right in saying that the proposals of the Government are quite inadequate in that respect. But at any rate it is better than nothing, it is a great improvement. A principle is being advanced on which we have been obliged to fall back in all our wars, not only the Great War, in which most of us took part, but I believe you will find that a great many of Wellington's men at Waterloo were collected by the press gang. I think that probably Cromwell's men were not all voluntarily enlisted, and certainly the men at Crecy submitted to considerable pressure. Therefore to suggest that compulsion is a novelty so far as we are concerned really is to ignore the whole of our history.

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But, in addition to the possibility of preventing the outbreak of war, surely there is one point that has not been mentioned in this debate yet, and it is this. The next most important thing to obtaining peace is to restore respect for treaties. Now treaties at the moment are at the mercy of the man who can put the strongest force in the field, and, so far as I can see, the only possibility there is of altering that state of affairs and reverting to a system under which alone you can have security and peace for the smaller nations, is to make it quite clear, by a combination of nations who are strong enough to interfere with the prospective aggressor, that he cannot meet with success. Treaties have been torn up with great success from 1914 onwards. The steps taken to safeguard the Treaty of 1919 have proved to be quite inadequate, and we are once more back in the region of power politics. To suggest that when the rest of the world has got into that position which was so well described, as I thought, by my noble friend Lord Home, anything short of the utmost effort that we can possibly put forward can be adequate to meet the situation, seems to me to suggest a world of unrealities, and a refusal to face manifest facts and to discharge our responsibilities as Members of Parliament.
6.16 p.m.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I rise to ask a question of which I have given the Leader of the House private notice: It is this. Should a Proclamation, based on a state of emergency, as stated yesterday by the noble Earl in the House, be issued, would it necessarily be followed by a declaration of war were an attack delivered on this country or any part of the Empire? I ask this question because, as we see, the modern habit is that war should be conducted without any declaration of war, and it is probable that hostilities might be directed against this part of the Empire without a declaration of war. We, acting on what I may call constitutional practice, would think it necessary to declare war, and thereby have the odium of being the instigators and authors of the war. I understand that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack is going to reply to my question, and I hope that he will be able to tell us exactly how we stand as regards this question of declaration of war.
6.17 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to deal with that question as best I can. It involves some rather curious matters of modern practice. If a country—this country or any other—is attacked without a declaration of war by an aggressor, there is no doubt that it has a complete right to defend itself, and it is absolved from the necessity of a declaration of war. The matter is technically regulated by The Hague Convention, which I am afraid I have not looked at for the purposes of answering this question, and you will find that The Hague Convention declares that a Government ought never to commence war without a warning, or without an ultimatum which declares that in the event of the terms of the ultimatum not being complied with there will be a state of war. However, you are free from any obligation, as I say, if you are attacked. But, according to the better practice, a country so attacked without warning and without declaration should itself make a declaration as soon as possible, stating that war or a state of war commenced as from the date of the enemy onset, and that is, I think, the course which this country would in all probability follow.
Now if your Lordships will bear with me for I hope not a very long period, there are matters which have arisen in the course of this interesting debate with which I should like to deal. The first point I want to deal with is the complaint which the noble Lord, Lord Snell, made yesterday, with his usual force and emphasis, against the Government on two grounds: first, the ground of lack of courtesy in opening this question in Parliament and the country without further communication with the members of his Party; and, secondly, the ground that there has been by the Government a repudiation of solemn promises made to Parliament and the nation that conscription in any form would not be introduced in time of peace during the life of this Parliament. He said that that promise was repeated on March 29 of this year. The first time I addressed your Lordships on a political matter I was induced to rise because of the charge of breach of faith and honour on the part of the Government, and I confess that I can never remain quite unmoved, or perhaps quite calm, when I

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think that I am being accused of being a member of a Government which has broken its solemn pledges. Accordingly I have sought to ascertain exactly what the pledges were, and on the invitation of my noble friend Lord Cecil I propose to tell your Lordships what I think the pledge meant and means at the present moment.
The pledge first made was given by Mr. Stanley Baldwin, now Earl Baldwin, in answer to Mr. McGovern in the other place on April 1, 1936. This is the first pledge given to Parliament:
"MR. MCGOVERN asked the Prime Minister whether he can give a guarantee that a conscription measure will not be introduced so long as peace prevails?
THE PRIME MINISTER (MR. BALDWIN): Yes, Sir, so far as the present Government are concerned."
I could go through a number of other cases where there have been repeated questions to the Prime Minister of the day, including many questions to Mr. Neville Chamberlain, in which the same pledge, if it is properly described as a pledge—I prefer to call it a promise—has been sought from His Majesty's Government. I will not delay your Lordships by going through them all, but I have them all here.
On October 6 last Mr. McGovern again, by private notice, asked the Prime Minister whether he could give an assurance that the Government would continue to honour the pledges given in answer to previous questions—namely, that no measure of conscription or compulsory National Service would be introduced.
"THE PRIME MINISTER: I have previously stated that conscription or compulsory National Service will not be introduced by this Government in peace time, and that statement still holds good."
That, I think, was the last pledge, and the reason I interposed to-day to ask my noble friend Lord Samuel a question was that Lord Snell had stated that the pledge had been repeated in an unequivocal form on March 29 last, a month ago. I have taken the opportunity of hunting through the OFFICIAL REPORT to find to what it was he was alluding. What was stated was this. Mr. Greenwood had asked the Prime Minister three questions. The third question was whether they, on that side of the House, might welcome the Prime Minister's statement as a reaffirmation of the Government's intention to uphold the voluntary system as against
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conscription. To that the Prime Minister said, dealing with the third question:
"The right honourable gentleman is quite correct in his assumption that this"—
that is the Territorial Army increase scheme—
"is an evidence of the Government's opinion that we have not by any means yet exhausted what can be done by voluntary service, and we shall demonstrate the possibilities of voluntary services to meet all our needs."
I do not attach any very great importance to these matters. What is of importance is to state with the greatest care the pledge which it is alleged has been broken, the time and place when it was given, in order that those who are considering whether the pledge has been broken or repudiated may have the opportunity of seeing what exactly was said and what was the true meaning of the statement made. There is a promise or pledge by the Prime Minister of this Government, following what was done in the last Government, that in peace time conscription would not be introduced. What does that mean? "Peace time" is not a term of art and has not got a legal significance. "War" has a legal meaning, and war may go on for years after the last shot has been fired, as all your Lordships are well aware, but "peace time" is a popular phrase or popular expression which may have many meanings. The question we have got to ask is this, in popular language does a promise of that kind mean that no conscription or measure of conscription can be introduced until war actually breaks out? For my part I deny it. I think that is a complete mistake. We are not here dealing with legal phrases. Perhaps the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, will allow me to remind him that thirty-one years ago he addressed from the other side of the Bar a long speech to this House in its judicial capacity on the question of what was war in a legal sense. It was in the Driefontein Case, he may remember. But we are not dealing with that sort of thing. We have now to consider not only the words "peace time," but the nature of the promise and the circumstances in which it was made.
The statement on behalf of His Majesty's Government was that the Government do not consider that a certain measure of defence is necessary in the interests of the country in peace time.

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It does not mean anything more than that. Is the course to be taken by the Government to depend on the actual commencement of hostilities? Certainly it cannot depend, as the noble Lord who asked me a question just now will know, on the declaration of war, because wars are constantly being commenced without any such declaration. It can hardly depend solely on the question of commencement of hostilities. Just see what a test that would be. Must we wait, for instance, until London is bombed before we can take such a measure of precaution as is here in question? Is the promise we have been speaking of a promise to prevent us taking such a deterrent measure as that which is proposed, however grave the imminence may be of hostile action against this country? For example, if a million men were put in transports with the object of invading this country, and all the necessary equipment was on board, is it then to be said: "This is a time of peace and you cannot take this measure of calling out your fellow subjects to protect the country"? And is it any different if, instead of being men in transports, it is aeroplanes that we are faced with, bombers that may be sent to attack this country at any time? Are we to wait to put ourselves in a position to supply the necessary soldiers who are required, as the noble Viscount, Lord Horne, reminded us, for so many purposes in these days, until the bombers have actually loosed their bombs upon this country? I hope your Lordships will come to the conclusion that that is a preposterous view.
I do not shrink from telling your Lordships what to the best of my judgment the real test is, and it is this. Where there exist such hostile preparations in a foreign country and such a state of tension between that country and our own that war may at any time break out, where those two conditions exist, I have no hesitation in saying that "peace time," in the sense the words were used by the Prime Minister in the course of this promise, no longer exists and that the Government are perfectly justified in taking such a precautionary measure as they intend to take. I think everybody will agree that the Government would be deserving of the censure of every person in this country, poor as well as rich, if in the circumstances which I have
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suggested exist and which do exist, they waited until the blow actually fell and destruction of a kind which one does not like to contemplate had been caused in the earliest days of the war. I would ask this: Who but the Government can be the judges of whether the conditions I have mentioned exist or not? What other person is able to stand up and say: "In my opinion the case is not so dangerous as you think; the fact that we have given pledges during the last fortnight to other countries has not so much altered the position as to make such a departure from our usual traditions and practice necessary and, therefore, nothing of this sort should be done"? For my part I cannot understand how anybody can have courage of such a kind as to get up and tell us that in his opinion there is no occasion for the proposals put forward by His Majesty's Government, and that therefore they are wrong.
I would ask this question: Is there any sensible man in this land who is not conscious of the intense reluctance of the Prime Minister and of this Government to bring forward even the limited measure of compulsory National Service which is the subject matter of the present debate? If anybody has any doubt on that point, I would say to him: "Do you think that for a moment the Prime Minister, after the views which he has repeatedly expressed, and after all his efforts for peace, as to which nobody can have the smallest doubt, would for a moment have done this if he thought there was any other course possible in the performance of his duty to do the best he can to protect his country at this particular time?" Few in the Government could have dreamt of bringing forward this proposal in the present Parliament unless it was a matter which was of the greatest possible importance in the interests of peace and security. It is not necessary for me to repeat the strange events of world importance which have taken place in the last three or four weeks and which have, as the Government think, transformed the international situation and the position in which this country stands.
There is another consideration which might induce the noble Lord, Lord Snell, to modify the view he has taken of the action of the Government on this occasion. Let me suppose for a moment that he is right in his view of what "peace time" means in the promise to which I

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have referred, and let us suppose that His Majesty's Government's views on that subject are wrong. Then the question arises, what ought the Government to have done in those circumstances? On the one hand it has been proved that the pledge was given, but on the other hand the Government are quite satisfied that a measure of this sort is necessary in the emergency of the present day. There are two things that make a difference. One of them is that the Government can follow what they believe to be the true meaning of the promise and introduce these measures. Well and good; that is what we are doing. The other is, they can dissolve Parliament. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Snell, and anybody else who has any doubt upon that topic, that it is not because of any fear as to the result of that course that Parliament is not dissolved. I believe that every member of this House, with the exception of one or two at most, is perfectly convinced that there is an overwhelming feeling in the country that we must now take steps to put ourselves in line with regard to our forces with the other nations on the Continent, and particularly with those who are going to fight side by side with us if war comes.
There have been many things said on the subject of conscription, but one thing that I cannot understand is this. Everybody agrees that it is noble for the volunteer to go out and fight for his country and to endanger his life for that purpose. What I cannot understand is how anybody can answer the question: Is it noble for others to stand by and watch the volunteer fighting? Is that noble? Or is not the answer that it is just as noble to fight if you are bound to help your country as it is if you voluntarily go forth to do so? I have heard sentences used to-night as if it were a fact that British citizens owe no duty to fight for their country. I suppose that means no duty to join up in time of peace, because I think it is not in dispute that in time of war it is the duty of every citizen to help the country in the hour of danger. But if the proposition is that it is a duty to help in time of war, does it not follow beyond all doubt that in these days, when it takes so many months to train a soldier, it is equally a man's duty to join up and to fit himself in some way to defend his country when the moment comes and war breaks out?
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There has been another complaint made to-day—one which is answered by noble Lords who have a complaint of a different character—that this is only a small measure of conscription which is proposed. The other view is that of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, who thinks that it has not been proved that the voluntary system has in any way failed. The Government are satisfied that more men may be needed at any time for some of the purposes of defending the country, and that some more men are needed at the present time. The proposed measure will produce them. The fact that the number of men to be produced by this measure is not a very great number is the answer to those who say, as the noble Lord, Lord Snell, suggested, that there would be dilution in the workshops, that the trade unions will be upset, and that the production of armaments will be interfered with. Very few people are going to be affected by this measure, and of course the greatest care will be taken by the Government that production of munitions shall not be in any way interfered with.
My Lords, this measure is one that is necessary, and I venture to think that the country as a whole will take that view. The criticisms which are extended to His Majesty's Government are largely due to the fact that they are made by persons without the responsibility which weighs upon every member of the Government, and in particular on the Prime Minister, who commands our fullest confidence and trust. This moment is, as has already been said, of extreme gravity in the history of Britain and of the Empire. The possibility of hostilities with the greatest military Power which the world has ever known is one which has to be reckoned with. The onus which rests upon the Prime Minister, upon the Foreign Secretary and the Defence Ministers is almost more than any human beings can properly be asked to bear. The interests of the nation are at stake. If the leaders of the Labour Party, and I would add of the Liberal Party, really understood the position, they would not be taking up the energies and the time of those members of the Government, but would be endeavouring to assist them to carry out these terrible duties in the true interests of the country.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LONDON BUILDING ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
BASTARDY (BLOOD TESTS) BILL. [H.L.]
The evidence taken before the Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to Members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, the Royal Commission which appears on the Paper has been postponed till to-morrow at twelve o'clock, and there will be a formal sitting at that hour for that purpose. May I remind your Lordships that it is now proposed that the House should meet on Monday at a quarter past four o'clock in order to take the Motion which the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, had on the Paper for to-day dealing with export credits, and which he was good enough to postpone till that day.
House adjourned at a quarter before seven o'clock.