Sitting of 6 May 1938

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Irvine and District Water Board Order Confirmation Bill.
Read the Third time, and passed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.M

  PREVENTION AND TREATMENT OF BLINDNESS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Not Amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  CLAUSE I.—(Power of local authorities in respect of the prevention and treatment of blindness.)
  11.5 a.m.
  Mr. Allan Chapman: I beg to move, in page 1 line 7, after "desirable," to insert
  " and as may be sanctioned by the Department of Health for Scotland."
  This Amendment fulfils a promise given at the Committee stage, and has been put down after consultation with my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Lord Advocate. In Committee the question was raised whether the powers conferred by the Bill as it then stood could be interpreted as going beyond the purpose set out in the explanatory Memorandum. For instance, could a power be read into the Bill which would enable local authorities so desiring to place a restriction on the marriage of blind persons? That was the particular point which gave rise to this Amendment. In the Bill prevention is limited to prevention under what may be called ophthalmic treatment, and to place the matter beyond the shadow of doubt this Amendment has been put down. By making any scheme submitted by a local authority subject to the approval of the Department of Health for Scotland, we ensure that any conditions laid down and which may be considered inexpedient are eliminated at the source, and before the scheme comes into operation.
  11.6 a.m.
  Mr. Garro Jones: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I should like to pay a tribute to the readiness with which the promoter of the Bill appreciated the force of the objection raised to the Bill in its original form and as presented to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills. The Bill entitled local authorities to take such measures as they thought would assist in the prevention of blindness. We were assured prior to the meeting of the Committee that those words did not mean what they said. No
  1194
  doubt it might have been possible, by elaborate arguments based upon draftsmanship, to establish that those words did not, in fact, mean what they said, but meant something else.
  However, that argument was brought to naught by the evidence which we were able to present to the Minister and the hon. Member promoting the Bill, to the effect that some local authorities, acting in advance of the Statute, had interpreted the provisions in this Bill as much wider than they were intended to be and had, in fact, sought to bring pressure or, at any rate, had invested themselves with power to bring pressure upon blind persons in order to prevent their marriage if the medical officer of health thought that such a marriage would be undesirable. That evidence impressed the Secretary of State, and even the chilled emotions of the Lord Advocate were aroused to the danger inherent in this proposal, and an undertaking was given that the matter would be brought within the purview of the Secretary of State for Scotland. That being so, any regulations made will be subject to the direct supervision of this House. Therefore, I feel that such danger as existed is no longer present, and I have pleasure in seconding the Amendment, and in supporting the Bill as so amended.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  HIRE-PURCHASE BILL.
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  NEW CLAUSE.—(Duty of hirer to give information of whereabouts of goods.)
  (1) While a hire-purchase agreement is in force with respect to any goods which have not been recovered by or ordered to be delivered to the owner, the hirer shall, on receipt of a request in writing from the owner, inform the owner where the goods are at the time when the information is given or, if it is sent by post, at the time of posting.
  (2) If a hirer fails without reasonable cause to give the said information within fourteen days of the receipt of the notice, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.—[Miss Wilkinson.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  11.10 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

  1195
  There are a number of Amendments standing in my name—a larger number than is usual for the promoter of a Private Bill. Most of them are drafting Amendments, which were promised in Committee, but one or two are Amendments of substance. The first of the Amendments of substance I now move. As one effect of the Bill—in fact, almost the main effect—is to restrict the owner's rights to enter the hirer's premises and take possession of the goods, it might mean that the owner would have to wait two or three months before obtaining a court order, and it has been pointed out that the owner would thereby be deprived of one of his most effective remedies against the hirer, especially if the hirer moves the goods without the owner's knowledge and consent. The owner is entitled to know where his goods are, and there should be some compulsion on the hirer to tell him. Obviously, although we put a penalty in the Clause it can be inflicted only if failure to give the information was wilful and continuous. The penalty would not be used if the failure to give the information was due to any misunderstanding on the hirer's part.
  Mr. Pritt: I beg to second the Motion.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Clause added to the Bill.
  NEW CLAUSE.—(Special provisions as to installation charges.)
  (1) Where under any hire-purchase agreement the owner is required to carry out any installation and the note or memorandum of the agreement specifies the amount to be paid in respect of the installation, the references in section four of this Act to one-half of the hire-purchase price and in sections nine, ten, and eleven of this Act to one-third of the hire-purchase price, shall be construed as references to the aggregate of the said amount and either one-half of the remainder of the hire-purchase price or one-third of the remainder of the hire-purchase price, as the case may be.
  (2) For the purpose of this section the expression "installation" means—

  (a) the installing of any electric line as defined by the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, or any gas or water pipe;

  (b) the fixing of goods to which the agreement relates to the premises where they are to be used, and the alteration of premises to enable any such goods to be used thereon; and

  (c) where it is reasonably necessary that any such goods should be constructed or
  1196
  erected on the premises where they are to be used, any work carried out for the purpose of such construction or erection.—[Miss Wilkinson.]

  Brought up, and read the First time.
  11.12 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  This Clause deals with the question of the installation of gas and water pipes and electrical installations. There was a strong desire on the part of the public utility companies and municipal corporations supplying fixtures as well as installing gas and electricity, that they should be left out of the Bill completely. We felt that it would not be possible to draw this line between the public utility companies and corporations and the suppliers of ordinary goods and those of the ordinary traders; but we did feel that public utilities had a very definite case with regard to their installation charges. In many cases a substantial part of the hire-purchase price may be caused by the installation of electric lines, or even in the case of refrigerators the provision of concrete let-ins in the floor, and so on. It was felt that such work has no compensation value, and it was conceded that where this expenditure was genuine it should be part payable by the hirer, quite apart from the cost of the ordinary goods. The Clause has been carefully drawn after a good many redraftings, so as to prevent any doubt in the matter.
  Mr. Thorne: I beg to second the Motion.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: I should like to express my thanks to the hon. Member for her consideration in this matter which I raised in Committee. I think she has found a most happy solution of a difficult problem.
  11.14 a.m.
  Mr. Ede: This new Clause does not entirely satisfy the municipal electricity undertakings, but they are placed in this position that if they put down any Amendment in the form they would like I understand it would wreck the compromise by which the Bill has been safeguarded. I could not myself, in view of the grave social abuses that this Bill proposes to rectify, take the responsibility of moving such an Amendment. If, however, it should be found that this Measure in operation is harmful to the growth of municipal electrical and similar undertak-

  1197
  ings, I hope that it will be possible for the Electricity Commissioners or some other appropriate body to promote a small one-Clause Bill that will put the matter right. I cannot oppose this Clause at this stage in view of the prolonged negotiations that have taken place to bring about this solution.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Clause added to the Bill.
  CLAUSE 1.—(Application of Act.)
  11.15 a.m.
  Mr. Turton: I beg to move, in page 1, line 7, after "livestock," to insert:
  " under which the hire-purchase price or total purchase price, as the case may be, does not exceed the sum of five hundred pounds."
  I ought to tell the House what happened in the Committee stage. The Committee, after full consideration, thought that all hire-purchase agreements affecting live stock should be included in the Bill, and I will explain why they thought so. Broadly speaking, hire-purchase goods tend to depreciate while they are in the possession of the hirer. If you have a bicycle and you do a certain number of miles it is in a worse condition than when you purchased it. On the other hand, most of the hire-purchase agreements affecting livestock have a contrary effect, for store cattle improve in the custody of the hirer, and there is another difference between a livestock hire-purchase agreement and other hire-purchase agreements. In a livestock agreement each animal is always worth a great deal less than £100—it is £20 or £30 —but it is the invariable practice for a great number of animals to be included in one hire-purchase agreement, and I am afraid that the limit of £100 in the Bill would have no effect on livestock hire-purchase agreements. For that reason, the Committee came to the conclusion that all hire-purchase agreements should be included.
  May I give the House a typical case of a hire-purchase agreement affecting livestock? A farmer in Warwickshire bought 14 cows under a hire-purchase agreement for which he had to pay £431 15s. He paid £332, and then got into financial difficulties. The hire-purchase company thereupon seized the cows, and got the cows and £332. They got £763 15s., Which I think the House will admit was a scandal. Having given that illustration,
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  a company called the United Dominions Trust, which is sensitive of their reputation, asked me to give them full details. I did so, and I have a letter from the United Dominions Trust telling me that they have examined the case and they find that they did not finance that transaction, or have anything to do with it. I say that in fairness to that company. That is the position. In the Committee stage the matter was re-considered, and the Committee thought it would be wise to put in a limit of £500. I do not think there are any hire-purchase agreements above that figure, but I should tell the House quite candidly that if there should be hire-purchase agreements affecting pedigree livestock or a string of racehorses, it is not the intention that such an agreement, a rich man's agreement, should be covered by the Bill.
  Major Colfox: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 1, line 10, leave out:
  " of the goods to which the agreement relates."—[Mr. Turton.]
  11.19 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 1, line 11 after "exceed," to insert:
  " (a) where the agreement relates to a motor vehicle (including any accessories thereto) or railway wagon or other railway rolling stock the sum of fifty pounds;
  " (b) in any other case."
  This Amendment deals with the matter which has been of considerable difficulty. When we first introduced the Bill there was an arrangement dealing with hire-purchase agreements which included one article not over £50 on which one-third had been paid and one article over £50 on which one-half had been paid. The difficulty arises because there is no possibility of defining what is a single article, and whatever a single article may be, a motor car is not a single article. It is not possible to contend that it is and, therefore, the whole scope of the Bill was raised to £100. That brought in certain difficulties. I do not think I need detail them as the large amount of correspondence which hon. Members have received on this subject means that they are fully acquainted with them, and could possibly have an examination of the subject. There is also the case of the cycle. Here

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  we find a real difficulty. As things were we felt that we could with a clear conscience except motor vehicles over £50. We then find ourselves with railway wagons and railway rolling-stock on our hands. It was never the intention of Parliament to bring in a hire-purchase Bill to protect those who may casually buy a railway wagon under hire-purchase and, therefore, in leaving out railway wagons as well as motor cars I think hon. Members will agree that we are not really giving away any principle.
  Mr. Denman: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 2.—(Requirements relating to hire-purchase agreements.)
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 1, line 15, to leave out Subsection (1), and to insert:—
  " (1) Before any hire-purchase agreement is entered into in respect of any goods, the owner shall state in writing to the prospective hirer, otherwise than in the note or memorandum of the agreement, a price at which the goods may be purchased by him for cash (in this section referred to as the ' cash price '):
  Provided that this subsection shall be deemed to have been sufficiently complied with—

  (a) if the hirer has inspected the goods or like goods and at the time of his inspection tickets or labels were attached to or displayed with the goods clearly stating the cash price, either of the goods as a whole or of all the different articles or sets of articles comprised therein; or

  (b) if the hirer has selected goods by reference to a catalogue, price list, or advertisement, which clearly stated the cash price either of the goods as a whole or of all the different articles or sets of articles comprised therein."

  This is really a redrafting Amendment, although it looks very formidable. There was a general feeling among all those who have collaborated in the Bill that the hire-purchasers should know exactly how much they had to pay for the accommodation of hire-purchase. The great amount of human ingenuity that has gone into hire-purchase agreements to persuade people that somehow or other 2s. a week does not amount to anything at all, even if you have to pay it for the rest of your life, has certainly been responsible for a good many of the tragedies connected with hire-purchase. The Amendment is to provide that the purchaser shall know
  1200
  what is the ordinary cash price to any person who wishes to pay cash, and what they are actually paying for hire-purchase accommodation. It has been a very difficult Clause to draft, as hon. Members will agree, because there are so many ways by which, quite honourably, prices are dealt with. This brings in every possible way in which prices can be communicated to the public. We do not mind how they are communicated as long as it is clear in the person's mind what is the cash price, and what is being paid for hire-purchase.
  11.24 a.m.
  Mr. Leslie: I beg to second the Amendment.
  This is a very important Clause. People who are purchasing goods ought to have some idea of their real value. Hitherto, they have been mulcted in considerable sums far beyond the real value of the goods. A provision like this is already in the Irish Act and is working very well.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made:
  In page 2, line 8, at the end, insert:
  " the requirement specified in the foregoing subsection has been complied with and."
  In page 2, line 29, after "with," insert:
  " the requirement specified in the foregoing subsection or."—[Miss Wilkinson.]
  CLAUSE 3.—(Requirements relating to credit-sale agreements.)
  11.26 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 2, line 36, to leave out Sub-section (1),
  and to insert:
  " (1) Before any credit-sale agreement is entered into in respect of any goods, the seller shall state in writing to the prospective buyer, otherwise than in the note or memorandum of the agreement, a price at which the goods may be purchased by him for cash (in this section referred to as the ' cash price '):
  Provided that this subsection shall be deemed to have been sufficiently complied with—

  (a) if the buyer has inspected the goods or like goods and at the time of his inspection tickets or labels were attached to or displayed with the goods as a whole or of all the different articles or sets of articles comprised therein; or

  (b) if the buyer has selected the goods by reference to a catalogue, price list, or advertisement which clearly stated the cash price either of the goods as a whole or of all the different articles or sets of articles comprised therein."

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  This Amendment simply applies to credit-sale agreements the provision which we have just passed with relation to hire-purchase agreements.
  Mr. Leslie: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made:
  In page 3, line 9, at the end, insert:
  " the requirement specified in the foregoing subsection has been complied with and."
  In line 27, after "with" insert:
  " the requirement specified in the foregoing subsection or. "—[Miss Wilkinson.]
  CLAUSE 4.—(Right of hirer to determine hire-purchase agreement.)
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 3, line 41, to leave out "one-third," and to insert "one-half."
  This Amendment is one of substance. It deals with the question of how much shall be paid by the hirer of goods before he can voluntarily end the contract. It is not concerned in the least with people who cannot pay, and who therefore need the protection of the court, for they come under Clause 9, and in that case the one-third remains. Hon. Members will have had a great deal of correspondence on this matter. It has been felt that in certain classes of goods, one-third is not sufficient to pay depreciation, commission and various other charges before the goods are returned.
  The particular case which has raised a good deal of feeling is that of bicycles. It is felt that if the Clause remained as it is, bright young things could get a bicycle out for a payment of 2s. a week beginning in March, pay about one-third, covering the summer months, and gaily return the bicycle in the winter, when it is almost unsaleable, and quite legally get out another new bicycle in the following spring. I must confess that in this matter my sympathies are with the bright young things, but the manufacturers feel that it is a distinct hardship. A good many other hardships have been brought to our notice, and, therefore, after a great deal of concentration—and I must confess, with a certain amount of reluctance on my part—it was agreed that we should move an Amendment to raise the fraction from one-third to one-half. I would emphasise to hon. Members on this side of the House that this Amendment deals only with those who volun-
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  tarily hand back the goods. Those who are in the position of not being able to pay are still protected by the courts after one-third has been paid.
  Sir William Jenkins: I beg to second the Amendment.
  11.30 a.m.
  Commander Marsden: I wish to support the Amendment. I am in a curious position with regard to this Amendment and other Amendments which the hon. Lady has moved. They are largely Amendments which I and my hon. Friends moved in the Committee stage, and which the hon. Lady opposed. She is now using the arguments which we used then. I make no complaint about that, but only say that I am glad that she has seen reason.
  Amendment agreed to.
  11.31 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 3, line 42, to leave out from "total," to "or," in line 43, and to insert:
  " of the sums paid and the sums due in respect of the hire-purchase price."
  It would be out of Order if on this Amendment I referred to the remarks of the hon. Member who spoke last. I will only say that his remarks would apply to a number of Amendments that are being moved. We are all concerned, I think, with getting rid of some very real abuses, and there are matters of detail which have to be the subject of accommodation. I think I have put the matter as tactfully as I could. This is little more than a drafting Amendment to cover a detail which was not foreseen when the Clause was drafted.
  Mr. Lee: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  11.32 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 4, line 13, to leave out "may in its absolute discretion," and to insert:
  " shall, unless it is satisfied that having regard to the circumstances it would not be just and equitable so to do."
  This Amendment has to be moved because of certain difficulties in law about the making of special orders for the delivering up of certain goods. It was felt that, seeing that the hirer himself was determining the hire-purchase agreement,

  1203
  he must expect in all ordinary cases to be liable to return the goods to the owner. There might, of course, be certain circumstances in which it would be unjust to the hirer that he should have to return the goods. Therefore, the matter would in any case be decided by the county court judge, and therefore, he would take all the circumstances into account. The Amendment would make the position more clear.
  Sir W. Jenkins: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 6.—(Duty of owners and sellers to supply documents and information.)
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 5, line 28, after "date," to insert "or the mode of determining the date."
  This is a drafting Amendment.
  Mr. Leslie: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 10.—(Powers of court in actions by owners to recover possession of goods.)
  Amendments made:
  In page 7, line 28, leave out "last."
  In line 29, after "business," insert:
  " at the date on which he last made a payment under the hire-purchase agreement. "— [Miss Wilkinson.]
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 7, line 39, at the end, to insert:
  " (3) Pending the hearing of any such action as aforesaid the court shall, in addition to any other powers, have power, upon the application of the owner, to make such orders as the court thinks just for the purpose of protecting the goods from damage or depreciation, including orders restricting or prohibiting the user of the goods or giving directions as to their custody."
  This new Sub-section is intended to deal with the question of the depreciation of machinery. It was felt that when there was a court order pending against a hirer of machinery circumstances might arise in which the machinery would be over-used and in which it might depreciate very rapidly. It might be run to the very last degree, and no particular care might be taken of it, and it was considered by the machinery section of the trade that some protection of this kind was necessary.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 11.—(Successive hire-purchase agreements between the same parties)
  11.36 a.m.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: I beg to move, in page 9, line 2, after "and," to insert
  " at any time after the expiration of twenty-eight days from the date upon which that agreement was made."
  This Clause is designed to prevent the linking of agreements in such a way that the hirer never gets complete possession of the goods originally bought, unless the last agreement comes to an end. There are certain minor exceptions, however, which have to be provided for. For instance, a young couple who are furnishing the nest may find that the hearth-rug does not match the wall-paper and may want to swop it for another. Possibly, they may not have measured accurately the recess beside the fireplace and they may find that a certain piece of furniture will not fit in there, so that at an early stage in the existence of the agreement they desire to make a change. This change must be recorded in a new agreement which would tie them up in an undesirable way, and under the Amendment a period of 28 days will be allowed from the date on which the agreement is made.
  Sir Edward Campbell: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 9, line 3, leave out "subsequently."— (Mr. H. G. Williams.)
  CLAUSE 12.—(Provisions as to bankruptcy of hirer and distress on hirer's premises.)
  The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. H. G. WILLIAMS: In page 9, line 24, at the end, to insert:
  " (3) Nothing in this section shall prejudice, or affect the operation of any enactment by virtue of which any goods are not subject to distress or to the landlord's remedy for rent or are not liable to be taken in execution under process of any court or any proceedings in bankruptcy against the person in whose possession the same may be."
  11.37 a.m.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: Do I understand, Mr. Speaker, that it is not intended to call this Amendment?
  Mr. Speaker: No, this Amendment has not been selected.
  Mr. Williams: May I, on a point of Order, put certain considerations before you, Sir, in this connection? Under certain existing Statutes, including Section 25 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, and under the provisions of a series of private Acts obtained by the gas industry, and also under the provisions of the model Gas Bill there are certain safeguards for public utilities. Legal experts who have examined this matter consider that the general nature of the words of this Clause might conceivably cause them to be interpreted by the courts as depriving public utilities of the safeguards obtained under earlier Statutes. It is in order to prevent any risk of such difficulty arising that this Amendment was tabled, and I hope, Sir, that you will reconsider the question of selecting the Amendment in view of that consideration. I have the assurance of an expert draftsman that there would be an element of danger in the Clause without these words. Perhaps the Attorney-General would give us some advice on the point.
  Mr. Speaker: My view was that the Amendment was unnecessary in the Bill. Perhaps the Attorney-General will assist me by saying whether, in his view, that is so or not.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): We have considered the point raised by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams) and we take the same view as that which led you, Mr. Speaker, to give the Ruling that this Amendment is unnecessary. I do not think there is any doubt about that. The matter has been carefully looked into, but I will certainly look into it again.
  Sir Reginald Clarry: I should like to support the view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams) that this Amendment would maintain the status quo and that it is essential in order to make the position perfectly clear.
  Mr. Speaker: The matter will be looked into.
  CLAUSE I3.—(Application of Act to existing agreements.)
  11.40 a.m.
  Sir R. Clarry: I beg to move, in page 9, line 34, after "Act" to insert:
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  " Provided that in relation to the said section nine the reference in this section to the amount to be paid in respect of installation shall (in the case of any agreement entered into before the commencement of this Act in which such amount is not specified) be construed as a reference to the amount of the expense actually incurred by the owner in connection with the installation."
  The Clause deals with existing agreements and this Amendment is intended to make its effect retrospective with regard to installation charges where they are not specified.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: I beg to second the Amendment.
  11.41 a.m.
  The Attorney-General: My hon. Friends, I think, have a point in this Amendment. It is clear that the Bill is to some extent retrospective, and one must make provision for the fact that agreements entered into before the Bill becomes an Act, if it does become an Act, will not have any installation charges separately shown on the Memorandum, if there is a Memorandum. I am afraid, however, that the Amendment in this form could not be accepted. It starts with the words
  " in relation to the said section nine the reference in this section to the amount to be paid in respect of installation."
  There is at the moment no "reference in this section" to the amount to be paid. If my hon. Friends withdraw this Amendment, we will undertake to consider a form of words which would meet the point and which could be inserted at a later stage.
  Sir R. Clarry: On that undertaking, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  CLAUSE 14.— (Definitions.)
  11.42 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page10, line 20, after "agreement" to insert
  " in order to complete the purchase of goods to which the agreement relates."
  It is not always the case that only the full amount of the hire-purchase price is actually payable under the agreement. There may also be a small sum at the end of the agreement. It may be as little as Is. or it may be £1 and if these words were not included it might make things a

  1207
  little awkward. It is a non-controversial Amendment.
  Mr. David Adams: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Commander Marsden: I beg to move, in page 11, line 5, at the end, to insert:
  " (i) ' Motor vehicle ' has the same meaning as in the Road Traffic Act, 1930;
  (k) ' Livestock ' means horses, cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, or poultry,"
  This Amendment is self-explanatory and makes clear what these definitions are.
  Sir E. Campbell: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. Crossley: Does not "livestock" include donkeys as well?
  Sir E. Campbell: Present company excepted.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 15.—(Short title, commencement and extent.)
  Amendment made: In page 11 line 9, leave out "July, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight," and insert "January, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine." [Miss Wilkinson.]
  SCHEDULE.—(Notice to be included in Note or Memorandum of Hire-Purchase Agreement.)
  11.44 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, in page 12, line 9, to leave out from "and," to the end of the paragraph, and to insert:
  " must also pay any instalments which are in arrear at the time when he gives notice. If, when he has paid those instalments, the total amount which he has paid under the agreement is less than one-half of the hire-purchase price he must also pay enough to make up that sum."
  This Amendment and the Amendments to the Schedule which follow, are of a non-controversial and drafting character. They are intended both to make the Schedule clearer and bring it into line with the various Amendments to which the House has agreed this morning.
  Mr. David Adams: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made.
  In page 12, line 27, after "may," insert "if the court thinks it just to do so."
  In line 27, leave out from "keep," to the end of the Schedule, and add:
  " either—

  (a) the whole of the goods, on condition that the hirer pays the balance of the price in the manner ordered by the court; or

  (b) a fair proportion of the goods having regard to what the hirer has already paid."—[Miss Wilkinson.]

  11.46 a.m.
  Miss Wilkinson: I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  May I take this opportunity of giving my thanks to the Law Officers of the Crown, the Attorney-General and his department, without whom it would have been utterly impossible for so complicated a Bill, and a Bill which has had to go into such very great detail in so many different trades, to have been piloted through by a private Member. We are extremely grateful to the Attorney-General, and I would like to express my thanks also to Members of Parliament on all sides of the House who have felt very strongly about details and Clauses of this Bill, but who have all of them subordinated their own views in the interests of the passage of the Bill, in view of the fact that we wanted to get the main provisions of a Bill which should definitely end the scandal to which we all of us took exception on the Second Reading. I am deeply grateful, as I am sure all those poor people will be who will be rendered happier by the passing of this Bill.
  11.48 a.m.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: I beg to second the Motion.
  As one who took a very active part in discussing the Bill in Committee upstairs, I should like to congratulate the hon. Lady the Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) on the great Parliamentary skill which she has shown throughout. Her task was not an easy one, and as I said upstairs—and I hope she will forgive me for repeating it—she formed a Popular Front Government in this country and completely enslaved the Attorney-General and the whole of the Government Departments concerned. I think the most remarkable Parliamentary achievement of many years, the fact that we

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  have got through all these Amendments this morning in just over half-an-hour is due to the negotiating skill which she has shown with the Attorney-General and a great many people outside who have worked very hard to get a Measure through which will safeguard the many poor people who have been ill-used in the past and at the same time protect the owners of goods from the abuses which come from fraudulent hirers. May I make a short reference to a personal transaction which, like King Charles' head, kept coming up in Committee? In my case it was a refrigerator on hire-purchase, and it is well to be able to state that both my interests and those of the supplying company are now adequately protected. I think we can all congratulate ourselves on having taken a major step in securing the early passage into law, as I hope we shall have done, of a very valuable Measure.
  11.49 a.m.
  The Attorney-General: I should like to express my thanks to the hon. Lady the Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) for the kind words which she used about myself and my colleague, and on behalf of the Parliamentary counsel, on whom this Bill has cast a very heavy burden indeed. It is an extremely complicated matter, because it inevitably, in the form in which it was originally presented to the House, quite apart from any changes which there may be in actual substance, wanted a great deal of reconsideration and recasting in order to carry out the intentions of the Committee. The Parliamentary counsel have devoted a great deal of time and energy, I think to the general satisfaction of the House, to expressing the intentions of the House on a matter which has been of extreme complexity.
  One or two references were made, in the course of the rapid passage of the Amendments on the Paper this morning, to certain alterations which have been made and accommodations which have taken place on certain minor matters. I remember that, at a very early stage in the Committee proceedings upstairs, an Amendment was moved, which has now been embodied in the Bill, to except railway wagons, and the hon. Lady, in expressing some opposition to that Amendment, did, however, tell us at that time that she was not prepared to die in
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  the last ditch for a railway wagon. She has, if I may say so, been extremely wise in meeting what, after all, are really minor points, and I should like to add my congratulations to those of the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams), not only on the way in which she has handled the situation from the point of view of the Standing Committee and the House, but also on the very arduous negotiations which she has had with a great variety of people, who, as is inevitable, have not always said exactly the same thing at one time as they have finally said at another time. She has kept her patience all through, and it is a very remarkable tribute that, in a matter of this complexity, the ultimate Amendments should have been passed with such a general measure of agreement. I should like to congratulate her very much indeed.
  11.52 a.m.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: Having taken part in the proceedings on this Bill throughout, on the Floor of this House and upstairs in Committee, I may perhaps be permitted to join in these congratulations, although it is not customary for us on this side of the House to congratulate one another. One thing must be said about this Measure, and that is, that whenever Parliament touches retail distribution, it finds itself up against one of the most colossal and complicated problems. Indeed, there is one thing that I hope this Bill will do, as I am sure it will; I hope it will clean up a great many of the abuses that are taking place in connection with hire-purchase. If the House will pardon me giving one illustration of the vastness of this business, it will be sufficient to say that one finance company alone, financing what is called cheque trading in this country, has a turnover of £12,000,000 per annum. The House of Commons, therefore, will see how enormous the whole thing is. When railway wagons were mentioned, I wondered whether railway engines would follow, and I also wondered whether the "Queen Mary" would be included, because she is bought on "tick."
  We had a rather strenuous time in Committee upstairs, and it was a great joy to see the skill whereby the hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) seemed to satisfy almost everybody in turn. In the end the Bill will, I hope, be a workable one. There is one thing

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  above all that must be remembered and that is, that the vast majority of hire-purchase transactions in this country are carried out in a very honourable way. It is only the few that are intended to be dealt with by this Bill, and I trust the courts, when they deal with those few abuses, will not forget the intentions of Parliament in this connection.
  11.54 p.m.
  Sir E. Campbell: I also would like to congratulate a mere private Member, as the hon. Lady the Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) called herself. She may be a private Member, but I do not think she can be said to be a mere private Member. I have had more correspondence about this Bill than about any other Bill in recent years, and the amount of postage which the hon. Member has cost me is considerable. At the same time it is very satisfactory to know that all the Amendments that one was asked to put down have come out satisfactorily, after negotiation, owing to the common-sense way, if I may say so, in which the hon. Lady has dealt with the whole matter.
  11.55 a.m.
  Mr. Turton: As one who has been trying to get legislation on this subject since 1936, I would like to add my congratulations to the hon. Lady. It was over two years ago that Dr. Mallon, of Toynbee Hall, tried to devise a Bill to remedy the position of hire-purchase trading, and when I look at the Bill which we drafted then and at the Bill which is now going through its Third Reading stage, I find that there are a great many differences between them. We never believed at that time that we should have an agreed Measure that would pass through the House within an hour on a Friday morning, and the fact that we have an agreed Measure, and a Measure that is legally workable, is entirely due to the tact and assiduity of the hon. Lady the Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson).
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  I think that hire-purchase companies have had a feeling that they are regarded in the county courts as unscrupulous members of society. This Bill will do a great deal to remove the odium that has surrounded them. They can now feel satisfied, having got a Bill that makes unscrupulous hire-purchase illegal, that they will have a far better reception when they take their cases to the county courts against any abuses that are committed by the other side. I would like to thank the hon. Lady, and also those who have worked behind the scenes to try to get this Bill. May I add my tribute to what she said as to the great help which the Parliamentary Counsel have given to the promoters of the Bill?
  11.56 a.m.
  Sir Robert Bird: I would like to make a small contribution to what, I think, can properly be called this feast of eulogy. It is inevitable that a complicated Measure of this kind must, quite fortuitously, have provoked great anxiety among a body of traders who feared that they were aimed at in the provisions of the Bill, particularly the trading concerns known as cheque trading companies. I would like on behalf of those undertakings to express thanks to the promoters of the Bill, and in particular to the Attorney-General, for what they have done to allay the natural anxieties of those trading concerns.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 2.
  Adjourned at Two Minutes before Twelve o'Clock, until Monday next, 9th May.

  AIR TRANSPORT COMPANIES (REGULAR SERVICES).
  AIR TRANSPORT COMPANIES (REGULAR SERVICES).
  AEROPLANES (EXPORTS).
  AEROPLANES (EXPORTS).