Sitting of 23 March 1938

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  FOREIGN POLICY.
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of immediately approaching the Governments of France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, the Baltic States, and others, with a view to ascertaining to what extent these States are prepared to co-operate with Great Britain against aggression in a scheme based on definite military commitments and binding guarantees under the Covenant of the League of Nations?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): The hon. Member's question raises wide considerations of policy. Perhaps he will be good enough to await my statement to-morrow.
  Mr. Mander: Certainly, but are we to understand that the question will be specifically dealt with in the Prime Minister's speech to-morrow?
  The Prime Minister: It will be dealt with.
  Major Milnerasked the Prime Minister whether any instruction, request, or suggestion, direct or indirect, has been made since 21st February, 1938, to British newspapers to suppress or modify news or comment on Government foreign policy; and, if so, in what terms?
  The Prime Minister: No attempt has been made by instruction, request or suggestion to prevent newspapers from expressing their considered views. I have already made reference to the heavy responsibility which rests upon the Press when commenting on international affairs.

  SHANGHAI (INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENT).
  Mr. Arthur Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the recent incident in Shanghai between American and Japanese troops, he can now make a statement on the negotiations taking place between the municipal council and the Japanese authorities following the receipt of the Japanese demand for a larger share in the control of the International Settlement?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): The Municipal Council have replied to the Japanese demands in terms approved by the Consular Body. The reply is, I understand, acceptable to the Japanese authorities and a summary has been issued to the Press by the Council. I have not yet received the full text, but I am informed that the Council have indicated their willingness to meet the Japanese requests in regard to the police force, as far as they can be met without impairment of efficiency, in return for an assurance that simultaneous steps will be taken for the restoration to the Council of full control in that part of the settlement which lies to the north of the Soochow Creek.
  Mr. Henderson: Has any request been made during these negotiations that the Japanese authorities should take steps to prevent the sort of incident referred to in the question?
  Mr. Butler: I could not give details of the negotiations, but the hon. Gentleman may take it, in view of the satisfactory nature of the conclusions, that all these subjects were taken into consideration.

  SYRIA (NESTORIAN BISHOPS).
  Mr. Ammonasked the Prime Minister whether the Assyrian Patriarch and the bishops of the Nestorian Church can be granted permission to visit their countrymen in the Khabur River settlement?
  Mr. Butler: Permission to visit the Khabur settlement must be obtained from the mandatory authorities in Syria. I understand that last summer permission was given for a Nestorian Metropolitan to go there, but the visit did not take

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  place, and, so far as I know, the French Government have not since been asked to give permission for such a visit.
  Mr. Ammon: Was not the visit of the Metropolitan prevented by the direct intervention of the British Government, and is it not rather scurvy treatment to people who sacrificed all, that they should not be allowed to have their freedom, even in exile?
  Mr. Butler: My information does not confirm the statement of the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Ammon: May I ask the hon. Gentleman to look into this matter, because I have very definite information that it was so?
  Mr. Butler: Certainly.

  ITALIAN TROOPS (LIBYA AND SPAIN).
  Mr. J. J. Davidsonasked the Prime Minister the number of Italian troops in Libya and Spain, respectively?
  Mr. Butler: With regard to Libya, I have no information suggesting that the situation has changed materially since the reply given to the hon. Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson) on 15th November last. As regards Spain, I have nothing to add to the reply given by the Prime Minister on 28th February to my hon. Friend the Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Sir N. Stewart Sandeman).
  Mr. Davidson: Does that answer mean that there has been no reduction of Italian troops in either of these areas since the inception of the British-Italian talks?
  Mr. Butler: I said that the situation has not changed materially.
  Sir Archibald Sinclair: Are the Government making inquiries into the official announcement by the Spanish Embassy that Italian troops in Spain have recently been reinforced?
  Mr. Butler: No doubt we shall look into it.
  Mr. Thorne: Do the Foreign Office receive foreign newspapers and have they seen the French rumours to the effect—
  Mr. Speaker rose—
  Mr. Thorne: Well, Sir, they give all the details of the number of soldiers in Spain.

  SPAIN.
  Mr. G. Straussasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Spanish Ministry of National Defence issued on 14th March a note alleging that General Veidt, Commander Neudorfer, Commander Hermann, Commander Schultze, Captain Schroeder, Commander Fischer, and Commander Zielberg were German officers taking part in the insurgent offensive in Aragon; and whether in view of these allegations, he will cause immediate inquiry to be made in Berlin by His Majesty's Ambasador to ascertain the present whereabouts of these indivduals and whether they are, as alleged, members of the German armed forces?
  Mr. Butler: I have seen the statement referred to, but I do not consider that the action suggested by the hon. Member would serve any useful purpose.
  Mr. Strauss: Is it not recognised officially that interference and intervention in Spain of Germany on the scale suggested is of supreme importance for the preservation of the peace of the world, and is it not the duty of His Majesty's Government to find out about it and to inform the House of Commons?
  Mr. Butler: I cannot deny its importance, but it is a matter for the Non-intervention Committee.
  Mr. T. Williams: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether these allegations have been submitted by His Majesty's representative to the Non-intervention Committee and if so, with what result?
  Mr. Butler: No, Sir.
  Mr. Attlee: What are the means taken by the Non-intervention Committee to find out these facts? Have they developed any system of finding them out? If such matters are brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government do they, of their own accord, submit them to the Non-intervention Committee?
  Mr. Butler: The procedure for submitting matters to the Non-intervention Committee involves the Government concerned taking responsibility for verifying the facts.
  Mr. Attlee: That is really not an answer to my question. When these matters are brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government do His Majesty's Government endeavour to verify the facts? If that is not done, how does the Non-intervention Committee obtain any information?
  Mr. Butler: Naturally His Majesty's Government try to verify any facts brought to their notice, but that is a different question to putting them before the Non-intervention Committee.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Have the Government made any attempt to find out whether there are, in fact, 30,000 Germans and 100,000 Italians in Spain?
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether any reply has been received from the Vatican authorities, following the approach of His Majesty's Government and the French Government that the Vatican should be associated with their appeal to both parties in Spain to stop the bombardment of civilian populations?
  The Prime Minister: The representations made by His Majesty's Government to the Vatican were not such as to call for a reply. I understand, however, that the Vatican are deeply interested in the prevention of air attacks on civilians in Spain, and they are no doubt taking such action as they consider best calculated to achieve this end.
  Mr. Henderson: Is it the intention of His Majesty's Government and other Governments that the Vatican should be associated with their protests to General Franco; and is it not desirable that the Vatican should express the fact that it will associate itself?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has asked a question on that subject before, and I have told him what steps the French Government and our own are taking. I now tell him again that the Vatican are taking presumably their own steps, and are not associating themselves with the steps that we are taking.
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether any reply has been received from the Spanish insurgent authorities in Spain to the protest addressed to them following the bombardment of Barcelona?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Would the Prime Minister consider publishing the text of the protest sent to General Franco about the bombing of Barcelona?
  The Prime Minister: The gist of it has been given. I do not know that there is any object in publishing the text.
  Mr. R. Aclandasked the Prime Minister which nations, being members of the Non-intervention Committee, have expressed themselves as unwilling, or have not expressed themselves as willing, to accept the British proposals as a basis for discussion; and what steps have been taken in the last five weeks either to persuade such nations to change their point of view or to amend the British proposals so as to make them acceptable to all members of the Committee?
  Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister what Governments represented on the Non-intervention Committee have not yet accepted the British formula for the evacuation of foreign troops from Spain?
  Mr. Butler: As I have already stated on many occasions, the proceedings of the Non-intervention Committee are confidential, and I am not, therefore, able to give the information desired.
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Greene.
  Mr. Acland rose—
  Mr. Speaker: The question on the Paper has been answered, and I have called the next question.
  Mr. Acland: On a point of Order. May I not be allowed to put one supplementary question to one of my own questions?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has received an answer that the Minister has nothing more to say.
  Mr. Crawford Greeneasked the Prime Minister, in view of the protest sent by His Majesty's Government to General Franco with regard to the bombing of Barcelona, whether he will give a definition of what is held to be an open town; and why the town of Barcelona, in which are situated the seat of government, the offices of the government departments, military bases, munition factories, docks, and railways available for the transport

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  of troops and munitions, is classed as an open town and, therefore, immune to attack?
  The Prime Minister: As explained to the House by the late Foreign Secretary on 2nd February, the rules of international law as to what constitutes a military objective are undefined, and pending the conclusion of the examination of this question which, as he stated, was being undertaken by the competent Departments of His Majesty's Government, I am not in a position to make any statement on the subject. The one definite rule of international law, however, is that the direct and deliberate bombing of non-combatants is in all circumstances illegal, and His Majesty's Government's protest was based on information which led them to the conclusion that the bombardment of Barcelona, carried on apparently at random and without special aim at military objectives, was in fact of this nature.
  Mr. Greene: Is it the case that there is absolutely no definition of an open town?
  Mr. W. Roberts: Did not the hon. Member who put this question protest against the bombardment of Madrid, which was exactly similar?
  Lieut.-Colonel the Marquess of Titchfieldasked the Prime Minister whether British interests are being carried on in areas of Spain occupied by the Government and insurgent forces respectively; and whether any have been confiscated without compensation?
  Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. British undertakings in both areas in Spain are being carried on so far as circumstances permit. There have, however, been numerous instances on both sides of the assets of wholly or partially British-owned enterprises benig seized without compensation by the authorities. As regards the losses suffered by firms with a substantial British interest in the territory under the control of the Spanish Government, by processes such as collectivisation, workers' intervention or intervention by the State, I would refer my Noble Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Donner) on 13th December last.
  Duchess of Atholl: Did not the Catalonian Government, which carried out a
  1178
  certain measure of compulsory collectivisation in 1936, say that it was not intended to be regarded as confiscation, and that everything possible would be done to protect the rights of British subjects?
  Mr. Butler: I am glad to have that information.
  Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croftasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the official statement of General Franco last week that the number of foreign combatants in the Nationalist forces has decreased by about 20 per cent. compared with a year ago; that the number of foreign troops only reaches 5 per cent. of the total forces in the Army, and that no other foreign combatants are on their way to Spain; and whether these facts have been presented to the Non-intervention Committee in connection with the proposals for the withdrawal of foreigners from Spain?
  Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. My attention has been drawn to this statement. I have no doubt that the Non-intervention Committee will take into consideration all relevant information in framing their proposals for the withdrawal of foreign volunteers.
  Sir H. Croftasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the statement of General Franco last week declaring that the status quo in the Mediterranean will not be modified by any act of the Nationalist Government; that no territory will be taken from Spain for the profit of a foreign Power, and that the essence of his movement is the independence of Spain and the territorial integrity of Spain; and whether he will note this declaration of Spanish independence and express Great Britain's interest in the freedom of that country at the conclusion of the civil war?
  Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. My attention has been drawn to this statement. It is the desire of His Majesty's Government that, whichever side is victorious in the present conflict, the independence and territorial integrity of Spain should remain intact.
  Sir H. Croftasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the specific information that a

  1179
  large number of volunteers have entered the frontiers of Spain under the control of the Government of Barcelona in violation of non-intervention and since the general acceptance of the principle of the British proposal for the withdrawal of volunteers; that 25 officers of superior rank have been supplied to the Barcelona Government in recent months by France; whether he has the details of the quantities of tanks, aeroplanes, lorries, heavy guns, field guns, machine guns, automatic rifles, and cartridges supplied to Barcelona from foreign sources; and whether he is aware that practically the whole of the munitions and materials captured in recent actions is of foreign manufacture, supplied by countries which are partners in the Non-intervention Committee; and whether he will bring these facts to the attention of the Non-Intervention Committee?
  Mr. Butler: I have no confirmation of these reports; the last part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
  Sir H. Croft: Will my hon. Friend accept definite information on this subject if it can be provided, with a full list of the names and categories of all these armaments, and see that it is conveyed to the Non-intervention Committee?
  Mr. Butler: I am always ready to study any information that my hon. and gallant Friend sends me.
  Mr. Maxton: Will the Government consider sending the hon. and gallant Gentleman to Spain to be an observer on the spot?
  Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the statement by His Majesty's Government that the bombardment of the civil population of Barcelona and other Spanish towns is a violation of the principles of international law, His Majesty's Government will now permit the Spanish Government to purchase anti-aircraft guns and fighting aircraft; and, if not, by what means does he propose that this vital rule of international law should be upheld?
  Mr. Butler: Any such alteration in the list of prohibited war material as is suggested by the hon. Member could obviously not be undertaken by His Majesty's Government alone. As regards
  1180
  the second part of the question, they believe that the rules of international law can best be upheld by themselves adhering to them and by reminding those who fail to do so of the condemnation which their action is bound to call forth from all civilised peoples.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: In view of the fact that it has been proved many times in recent months that those who are using these methods of warfare care nothing whatever for verbal protests, is it not time that some concrete action was taken to protect civilian populations from military attack which the Government themselves condemn?
  Mr. Butler: I think there is an indication that attention has been paid to the recent protest of His Majesty's Government.
  Major Milnerasked the Prime Minister when the attention of the German and Italian Governments was last called to their alleged breaches of the Non-intervention Agreement; and with what result?
  Mr. Butler: The last complaint submitted under the procedure of the Nonintervention Committee against the Italian and German Governments was on 11th November, 1936, that is before the system of international observation was established early in 1937. The committee found at that date that it was impossible to prove to their satisfaction that there had been a breach of the agreement.
  Major Milner: Are we to understand that the attention of neither the German nor the Italian Government has been called to these breaches since 1936?
  Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Mander: How long is this mockery going on?
  Mr. Shinwell: Are we to understand from the answer that, in spite of the information which the Non-intervention Committee has received, there has been no breach of the agreement in the last 12 months?
  Mr. Butler: No, I did not say that.
  Mr. Shinwell: Are we to understand that there has been a breach of the agreement in that period?
  Major Milner: What is the difficulty? Why is not the attention of these Governments called to these breaches?
  Mr. Butler: As I said earlier this afternoon, if any Government takes responsibility for bringing a matter before the Non-Intervention Committee, it must be convinced of the facts of the situation, and that the facts are correct, before it does so.
  Mr. Attlee: Were the breaches of the Non-intervention Agreement which were detailed to this House by the late Foreign Secretary brought before the Nonintervention Committee?
  Mr. Butler: In my answer to the question of the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) I gave the last date on which such a matter was brought before the committee.
  Sir H. Croft: Did not the late Foreign Secretary declare that he must confess that these breaches had been far greater in the case of Russia during recent months?
  Sir A. Sinclair: Will the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that the Government will make inquiries into these alleged breaches of the Non-Intervention Agreement and will bring them before the Non-Intervention Committee?
  Mr. Butler: These breaches give His Majesty's Government as much cause for anxiety as the right hon. Gentleman, and we shall certainly continue to examine the matter.
  Major Milnerasked the Prime Minister how many authenticated breaches of the Non-Intervention Agreement by Germany and Italy have come to the knowledge of the Government; and whether he will give particulars?
  Mr. Butler: As I stated on 21st March, in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson), it is common knowledge that both parties in Spain have received help in men and material from foreign sources. The hon. and gallant Member will realise that it is extremely difficult to obtain confirmation of specific breaches of the Non-Intervention Agreement, and I cannot, therefore, give particulars for the accuracy of which I could not vouch.
  Major Milner: Will the hon. Gentleman accept my statement that I have myself seen in Spain breaches of this agree-
  1182
  ment, in that I have seen the identity book of a pilot, who was brought down within an hour of my seeing it, showing that he was only commissioned on 31st October, 1937? Is not that a clear and authenticated breach of the Non-Intervention Agreement?
  Mr. Butler: I shall be glad to see any material the hon. and gallant Gentleman submits to me.
  Major Milner: Will the hon. Gentleman take action upon it, and bring it before the Non-Intervention Committee?
  Mr. Butler: I must see it first.
  Miss Wilkinson: Has the hon. Gentleman seen the recent speeches that have been made by the present ruler of Italy, detailing the intervention for which he has been responsible?
  Captain Ramsayasked the Prime Minister whether he has received any reports from the representatives in Spain of His Majesty's Government, and whether he will inquire from General Franco's representatives in this country regarding the recent official declaration of the Valencia Government to the effect that 30,000 German soldiers have been landed in Spain since 14th March; and whether this declaration of the Valencia Government is borne out by the reports of His Majesty's representatives in Spain?
  Mr. Butler: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which the Prime Minister gave on 21st March to a similar question put by the Noble Lady the Member for Perth and Kinross (Duchess of Atholl).
  Captain Ramsay: Is my hon. Friend aware that these allegations put about by the Valencia Government bear the same relation to the truth as the bogus evidence in the Moscow trials?
  Duchess of Atholl: Will the hon. Gentleman look at the question I put two days ago? He will see that the 30,000 German persons to whom I referred were technicians—not the 30,000 storm troopers now referred to?
  Mr. Butler: These rumours cover a good many different categories. I am bound to say that we regard these figures as false.
  Miss Rathboneasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether there were

  1183
  any Spanish insurgent ships standing by at the time of the sinking of the "Baleares"; if so, what were their names; and whether they made any offers to assist in the rescue of the crew of the "Baleares"?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Shakespeare): The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
  Miss Rathboneasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will publish the list of names of the commissioned officers who were rescued from the insurgent vessel "Baleares" on 6th March; and whether any steps were taken and, if so, of what nature, to discover and verify the nationality of those officers?
  Mr. Shakespeare: I regret that I am not in possession of the names of the commissioned officers rescued from the "Baleares." As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Cumberland, North (Mr. W. Roberts) on 14th March last, to which I have nothing to add.
  Miss Rathbone: Assuming that evidence of this kind is available—evidence of breaches of the Non-Intervention Agreement—ought not efforts to be made to ascertain these particulars?
  Mr. Shakespeare: I am informed that at the time of the rescue the sea was covered many inches thick with oil fuel, and that all the survivors were smothered in it. They had to be scrubbed down, and the bulk of them were wounded. The hon. Lady must realise that, in these conditions, it is quite impossible to ascertain such particulars.
  Mr. W. Robertsasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the names and number of battleships, cruisers, flotilla leaders, and destroyers which adhered to the Spanish insurgents at the outbreak of the present hostilities in Spain; whether the insurgents are now in possession of any other warships of these classes; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government have any information as to the origin of these vessels?
  Mr. Shakespeare: At the outbreak of the present hostilities in Spain one
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  battleship, "Espana," four cruisers, "Almirante Cervantes," "Baleares," "Canarias" and "Republica," no flotilla leaders, and one destroyer, "Valesco," adhered to the insurgent cause. In the late autumn of last year, according to our information, General Franco's forces received four additional destroyers; and as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs indicated on 16th March, there have been reports that these vessels were of Italian origin. There is no information which suggests that General Franco has received any other vessels of the classes mentioned.
  Mr. Roberts: Is it not a fact that 64 destroyers were of Italian origin and that the names of two of them were "Falco" and "Aquila," and is that not a breach, not only of the Non-Intervention Agreement, but of the Washington Treaty?
  Mr. Shakespeare: I do not think I am authorised or competent to deal with that.
  Mr. A. V. Alexander: Has the Admiralty, in addition to information about those classes, information as to the reinforcement of Franco's forces by a large number of Italian submarines?
  Mr. Shakespeare: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will put that down. Submarines are not specifically mentioned in the question.
  Mr. Noel-Baker (for Mr. Cocks)asked the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that, on 16th October, 1937, Lord Plymouth stated that unless agreement on the Non-Intervention Committee was reached within a short space of time the British Government would reserve to themselves the right to resume complete liberty of action, whether the Government will fix a specific early date upon which agreement must be reached, failing which they will lift the ban on the supply of arms and volunteers to the Government of Spain?
  Mr. Butler: His Majesty's Government have never wavered in their intention to do everything in their power to bring about a more effective application by the Governments concerned of the policy of non-intervention. At the time of the statement to which the hon. Member refers, the proposals of His Majesty's Government for the withdrawal of foreign

  1185
  volunteers were under consideration. As a result of their efforts, His Majesty's Government since that date have secured the adoption in principle by all the Governments represented on the Committee of the British plan of 14th July last. Moreover, as the hon. Member is aware, a new British formula in connection with the withdrawal of volunteers has been put forward for the discussion of the foreign Governments concerned. In these circumstances I am not prepared to tie the hands of the United Kingdom representative on the Committee in the manner suggested.
  Mr. A. Henderson: When is the committee going to meet?
  Mr. Butler: At present informal negotiations are proceeding.
  Mr. Noel-Baker (for Mr. Cocks)asked the Prime Minister when the last meeting of the chairman's sub-committee of the Non-Intervention Committee was held; what is the cause of the present deadlock; and when the next meeting of the sub-committee will be held?
  Mr. Butler: The last meeting of the chairman's sub-committee was held on 3rd February and no further meeting has yet been fixed. As regards the rest of the question, I have nothing to add to the statement which I made on 21st March in answer to a similar question by the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks).
  Mr. Noel-Baker: In view of the allegations that large-scale intervention has been going on is it not desirable that the matter should be cleared up at an early date in order to secure the early withdrawal of volunteers?
  Mr. Butler: The negotiations to which I have referred are continuing to take place, and no doubt these matters are receiving consideration.
  Mr. Thorne: Is it left entirely to the discretion of the chairman when the committee is to meet?
  Mr. Butler: I should like notice of that question.

  MEXICAN OILFIELDS (BRITISH INTERESTS).
  Sir John Mellorasked the Prime Minister whether he has made or will
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  make representations to the Mexican Government with regard to the treatment of British interests in the Mexican oilfields?
  Mr. Roland Robinsonasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the expropriation of British-controlled oilfields in Mexico; and what action it is proposed to take to protect British interests?
  Mr. Butler: On 10th March His Majesty's Minister at Mexico City officially drew the attention of the Mexican Government to the profound anxiety of His Majesty's Government at the probable consequences to established British interests as a result of the verdict of the Mexican Supreme Court of 1st March. On 16th March Mr. O'Malley also had an interview with the Mexican President on the subject of this verdict. His Majesty's Government, who have informed the Mexican Government that they reserve their full rights in the matter, are now examining the situation resulting from the expropriation decree, which was made public on 19th March.
  Mr. Robinson: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the importance to this country of having an oil supply which does not have to pass through the Mediterranean?
  Mr. Davidson: Has the attention of His Majesty's Government been drawn to the statement of the Mexican Government that this oil would be available for the democracies of the world?
  Mr. Shinwell: When the hon. Gentleman is concerning himself with these British oil interests in Mexico will he concern himself also with the interests of the workers engaged in the oilfields?
  Mr. Maxton: Would the Minister communicate with the Mexican Government and tell them that their law courts must not make decisions without first consulting His Majesty's Government?

  CANTON AND ENDERBURY ISLANDS.
  Mr. R. Robinsonasked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in the negotiations with the United States Government with regard to the islands of Canton and Enderbury in the Southern Pacific Ocean?
  The Prime Minister: Conjointly with the United States Government, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, in consultation with the Dominion Governments concerned, are examing proposals for the settlement of this question in the friendliest spirit. I hope very shortly to be able to make a public announcement on the subject.
  Mr. Robinson: Will the Prime Minister consider, in the negotiations with the American Government, whether it would not be wise to give American aviation landing rights in these islands in return for landing rights for British aviation in the Hawaiian Islands?
  The Prime Minister: Perhaps my hon. Friend will await the statement that I propose to make.
  Mr. Jagger: Would the Prime Minister consider setting up another Non-Intervention Committee on this matter?

  GREAT BRITAIN AND ITALY.
  Mr. Rileyasked the Prime Minister if, and when, he will be able to inform the House of the questions under discussion between His Majesty's Government and the Government of Italy?
  The Prime Minister: I can give no undertaking as to when, if at all, it will be possible to give the House a list of the subjects under discussion. But, as I informed the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 10th March, any agreement reached will be communicated to the House, and there will be an opportunity for discussion.
  Mr. Riley: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the people of this country are entitled to know what questions are to be discussed?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, I do not think so at this stage. I have said that when any agreement is reached there will be an opportunity for discussion.

  SIR ROBERT VANSITTART.
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether Sir Robert Vansittart remains chief diplomatic officer of the Foreign Office; and whether he is regularly consulted on matters of foreign policy?
  Mr. Butler: The position of Sir Robert Vansittart is that of Chief Diplomatic Adviser. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.
  Mr. Mander: May I assume that there is no foundation for the statement that Sir Robert Vansittart is not being consulted at present by the Prime Minister at all?
  Mr. Butler: I am not aware of any such statement. Sir Robert Vansittart's advice is very valuable to the Government.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    NAVAL BASE, PORT EDGAR.
    Mr. Mathersasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can now say if he intends to bring Port Edgar naval base into active use; and, if so, when this will be done?
    Mr. Shakespeare: I have nothing to add to the reply given to a similar question by the hon. Member on 3rd November, 1937.
    Mr. Mathers: Does not the Board of Admiralty consider that, when spending so much money on new equipment, they ought to use the old equipment and premises that they have available?
    Mr. Shakespeare: I think I should avoid raising false hopes that something will be done. The matter is under review.

    ROSYTH (DISPLACED TENANTS).
    Mr. McLean Watsonasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is intended to occupy more than the 12 houses at Rosyth, of which notice has already been given to the tenants; and will he keep in mind the very great difficulty the displaced tenants will have in finding suitable accommodation elsewhere?
    Mr. Shakespeare: The number of houses required by the Admiralty at Rosyth, in addition to the 12 already under notice, cannot yet be stated, but the difficulty the displaced tenants may have in finding suitable accommodation elsewhere will be borne in mind.
    Mr. Watson: Will as long notice as possible be given to tenants who have to be displaced?
    Mr. Shakespeare: I think that a most reasonable suggestion.

    PROMOTION.
    Mr. Parkerasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the increased number of lieutenancies to be awarded to warrant rank; the age at which long and zealous service lieutenancies are now obtained; the age at which it is hoped they will be attained in future; and whether observing that the service as commissioned warrant officer is longer than that of warrant officer, he will arrange to have accelerated promotion in the senior as well as the junior rank?
    Mr. Shakespeare: The increased number of lieutenants ex-warrant rank in the executive, engineering and artificer branches will be about 30. The increase in the accountant branches will be 12. The age for promotion to lieutenant for long and zealous service in the executive branches now varies between the ages of 45 and nearly 50, the average age being about 47½. It will be possible under the new scheme of promotion from warrant rank for an officer to be selected for promotion to lieutenant after only five years as commissioned officer from warrant rank. As a result, an officer in the executive branch would be able to reach the rank of lieutenant through warrant rank at the age of 38, though the average age will necessarily be higher.

    Branch.

    Number of Promotions from Commissioned Warrant Rank in 1935.

    Number of Promotions from Commissioned Warrant Rank in 1936 with dates of Promotion and ages of the Officers when promoted.

    Number of Promotions from Commissioned Warrant Rank in 1937 with dates of Promotion and ages of the Officers when promoted.

    Age.

    Age.

    Paymaster Lieut. (ex Cd. Wtr.).

    Nil.

    8

    20 March

    49

    28 March

    49

    12 June

    49

    12 August

    49

    2

    1 July

    48

    28 August

    49

    2 August

    47

    5 October

    48

    28 November

    48

    8 December

    48

    Paymaster Lieut. (ex Cd. S. O.).

    Nil.

    3

    18 January

    49

    3

    7 February

    48

    9 April

    49

    26 February

    48

    16 June

    48

    9 April

    48

    Paymaster Cook). Lieut. (ex Cd. Cook).

    Nil.

    Nil.

    1

    4 January

    47

    CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES.
    Mr. Parkerasked the First Lord of the Admiralty why, in the new children's allowances for officers, only 1s. 6d. per day is allowed for the first child of a warrant officer, whereas 2s. 1s allowed for captains and other com-
    Mr. Parkerasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of promotions made to paymaster-lieutenant for long and zealous service in the writer, supply, and cook branches, respectively, during each of the past three years; the dates of each of these promotions and the ages of the officers; and, in view of the paucity of these promotions, when the promised additional promotions are likely to be made?
    Mr. Shakespeare: The information asked for in the first two parts of the question is contained in a tabular statement which I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. As regards the last part of the question it is proposed to make promotions to paymaster-lieutenant from commissioned warrant rank in the writer and supply branches as suitable vacancies can be created. It will be possible to create two of these vacancies at once, and it is hoped to make the majority within six months and all 10 within two years. In the cook branch, the two extra promotions are being proceeded with at once. The hon. Member will appreciate that some short time will elapse in each case before the routine of selecting the officers to fill these vacancies can be completed.
    Following is the tabular statement:
    missioned officers; and whether, observing that the rate for all other children of all officers is a fiat one of 1s. per day, he will consider the removal of this anomaly, and grant warrant officers 2s. per day for the first child, and so have a flat rate for all officers?
    Mr. Shakespeare: I regret I cannot adopt the hon. Member's suggestion. The rates of marriage and children's allowances must, in the case of officers, bear some relation to their rates of pay and allowances.

    FLEET AIR ARM.
    Mr. Dayasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of all-metal Fleet Air Arm aircraft that are at present equipped with a form of emergency flotation gear and the number in service that are not so equipped?
    Mr. Shakespeare: All Fleet Air Arm aircraft are equipped with a form of emergency flotation gear.
    Mr. Day: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether, in any of the aircraft, buoyancy is taken into consideration in the design?
    Mr. Shakespeare: Yes, Sir. That is one of the methods adopted to secure what the hon. Gentleman has in view.

  PALESTINE.

    PARTITION COMMISSION.
    Sir Nicholas Grattan-Doyleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is yet in a position to give the name of the fourth member of the Palestine Partition Commission?
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): No, Sir; but I hope to be able to make an announcement very shortly.
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the technical Commission shortly proceeding to Palestine have been informed that their task is urgent and should be carried out with all convenient despatch?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am sure that the members of the Commission fully appreciate the position, and the importance of carrying out their inquiries as rapidly as possible.
    Mr. Mander: Has not this matter become much more important since the appointment of the Commission, in view of recent events in Austria and other parts of Europe; and will not the Commission's attention be called to the Government's great anxiety to have a report as soon as possible?

    OIL (LEGISLATION).
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he expects the revision of the general oil legislation of Palestine and Transjordan to be completed to enable permits to be granted for exploration?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The revision is still under consideration, and I am unable to say when the new legislation will be enacted.
    Sir A. Knox: When will this occur? It has been going on for years now. Surely the Government can frame legislation more quickly than that?

    JEWISH IMMIGRANTS.
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Jews who have been expelled from Germany have entered Palestine since 1933; and whether any of their property had been confiscated before they were expelled?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The number of Jewish immigrants from Germany who entered Palestine during the five years from 1933 to 1937 inclusive was about 32,500. I have no information that would enable me to say in what circumstances these persons left Germany.

    PROPAGANDA.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the continuing Arab propaganda alleging ruthless and lawless behaviour of troops and police in Palestine and cruelty and misconduct; what steps he has taken to counteract this propaganda and, in particular, whether he will have these charges investigated with a view to publishing the result of such investigations?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I consider that such propaganda is sufficiently discredited by its own obvious falsity and extravagance, and I do not propose to add to the many burdens of the Palestine Administration that of investigating each reckless and unsupported charge against British forces who are endeavouring to combat a campaign of murder and outrage.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that various publications emanate from the Arab centre in London, and will he pay particular attention to these publications, or at least offer impartially to investigate the allegations contained in their particular organs?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I do not think that is necessary. The statements emanate from the Arab centre in London, and I think that they are all lies.
    Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that at one time Palestine was quite quietly governed with only a few British police?

    TERRORISM.
    Mr. Robert Gibson (for Mr. David Adams)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has a further statement to make as to the situation in Palestine?
    Captain Dugdale (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. There has been no major encounter with armed bands since the operations near Safad on the 10th and 11th March, when several bands were dispersed with severe casualties. In the week ending 21st March, the following further incidents occurred: one murder, five cases of wounding, 14 robberies, 14 cases of sniping and seven cases of sabotage, the latter including the derailing of a goods train. Seven more Arabs have been tried by military courts; of these two were sentenced to death, two were acquitted, two bound over and one sentenced to six months' imprisonment.

  SEYCHELLES (ROAD CONTRACT).
  Mr. McEnteeasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the decision of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Seychelles in an action for defamation brought by a road contractor against a local newspaper, which had charged him with inefficiency and incompetence in carrying out road construction paid for, to a substantial extent, by the British taxpayer, out of the Colonial Development Fund, and that the making of the road justified vigorous comment; whether any action was taken by the Governor to recover money wasted in the work on this road; and what steps are being taken in future to avoid any further contracts being allotted to the said contractor?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The judgment of the Chief Justice of Seychelles, to which the hon. Member refers, has been brought to my notice. I learn that a report on the subject is being forwarded by the Governor of the Colony, and I will consider on receipt of the Governor's report whether any action on the part of the Colonial Government is called for.
  Mr. McEntee: Will the Minister also consider the passing of this contract for payment by the Governor himself, in spite of the fact that the road surveyor, who ought to have been consulted, was not consulted?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: That is obviously one of the points that has to be looked into.

  JAMAICA (JUDICIARY).
  Sir Percy Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the necessity for a reconstitution of the Jamaica judiciary to cope with the legal business of a population which is litigious by nature and has greatly increased in numbers; and whether he will take up the matter with the Jamaican Government?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I understand that a memorial on this subject has been prepared. In accordance with the usual procedure, it will be forwarded to me by the Governor with his observations. I will then give the matter my consideration.
  Sir P. Hurd: Has my right hon. Friend received representations on this subject from the Law Society of Jamaica?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: As I have said, I understand that a memorial has been prepared and that it will be forwarded to me.
  Sir P. Hurd: Has it not been received?

  AERONAUTICAL RESEARCH.
  Mr. Garro Jonesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether any research under Government auspices is proceeding into the development of the Diesel aircraft engines; and whether, having regard to the amount of fuel saving, authoritatively estimated at about £500 per 4,000 cruising horse-power for 24 hours and other advantages, he can make any report of progress?
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Earl Winterton): Research on compression ignition aero-engines has been in active and continuous progress for many years under Government auspices. Complete engines of British design were successfully tested on the bench and in the air several years ago, but showed a marked disparity in performance compared with petrol engines. Recent progress has been encouraging in offering some reduction in this disparity, but the work has not yet reached a stage at which a report can usefully be made. The reduction in fuel cost and other advantages offered by the use of heavy oil engines are fully appreciated, but they cannot in themselves be accepted without substantial qualification as an indication of the practical benefit to be obtained.
  Mr. Garro Jonesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will arrange for a translation of the 1,000 page German volume entitled "Jahrbuch 1937 Der Deutschen Luftfahrtforschung," which contains a vast amount of information upon modern aeronautical research, for the information of members of the Aeronautical Research Committee and others?
  Earl Winterton: I do not think that a translation of the entire contents of the volume referred to is called for. Full translations of some portions and abstracts of others have been made and circulated to the members of the Aeronautical Research Committee and to staffs of research establishments.

  DEFENCE.

    PROGRAMME ACCELERATION.
    Mr. Sandysasked the Prime Minister, in view of the deterioration in the international situation, what steps it is proposed to take to accelerate our defence preparations; and whether, in this connection, it is his intention to create a Ministry of Supply?
    The Prime Minister: In reply to the first part of the question, I propose to make a short statement dealing with our defence preparations in connection with the statement on foreign policy. The answer to the second part of the question is that the Government do not, as at
    1196
    present advised, consider that acceleration would result from the establishment of a Ministry of Supply.
    Mr. Thurtle: Is the reluctance of the Prime Minister to adopt this suggestion due to the fact that he does not know of a suitable Member of this House to fill the post of Minister of Supply?
    The Prime Minister: Not at all.

    COMPULSORY REGISTRATION.
    Mr. Sandysasked the Prime Minister whether, in order to facilitate the immediate mobilisation of the services of the entire nation upon the outbreak of a war, it is his intention to introduce a system of universal national registration, the purpose of which would be to allocate in advance the duties, whether military or civilian, which each individual according to his or her age, sex, physique, and qualifications would, in the event of war, be called upon to perform?
    The Prime Minister: A scheme for compulsory national registration in time of war, if the Government of the day should so decide, has been in existence for some years. Proposals for compulsory registration in peace time have also been considered, but on balance the advantages to be derived therefrom have been found to be outweighed by the difficulties and opposition which would have to be surmounted.
    Mr. Bellenger: Can the Prime Minister say whether any machinery exists in the Government Departments for putting into operation immediately at the outbreak of war a system such as this?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there will be the strongest opposition to anything of the kind, unless we have, as we can have, a united national foreign policy?
    Mr. De la Bère: Will the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, East (Mr. Mander) do something for national unity?
    Sir William Davison: Cannot we have collective registration?

    FLAX.
    Sir Hugh O'Neillasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether, in view of a possible shortage in the

    1197
    supply of flax fibre for industrial or munitions purposes, the Government propose to take any steps to ensure an adequate supply from British sources?
    The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence (Sir Thomas Inskip): An Inter-Departmental Committee has for some time been carrying out a thorough investigation into the supply of flax from the Defence point of view.
    Sir H. O'Neill: Can my right hon. Friend say whether anything can be done quickly?
    Sir T. Inskip: The Inter-Departmental Committee is obtaining the necessary information, but I am not sure what my right hon. Friend means by the question which he based upon my answer.
    Sir H. O'Neill: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that there has been a very large increase in the amount of raw flax available from foreign sources and that there has been an immense diminution in the amount of flax grown in this country, and that, unless some security of prices is given, there will be a real danger?

    CALCIUM CARBIDE.
    Mr. George Hallasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence what progress has been made in the establishment of the proposed calcium carbide works in South Wales?
    Sir T. Inskip: Substantial progress has been made. I shall hope shortly to make a full and up-to-date statement on this matter when the Caledonian Power Bill comes before the House for Second Reading.
    Mr. Hall: Has a site been acquired?
    Sir T. Inskip: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. James Griffiths: Where is it?

    FOOD STORAGE.
    Mr. Sandysasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether, in view of the fact that our defence preparations are to be further intensified, he will reconsider his decision not to increase the accommodation available for food storage?
    Sir T. Inskip: My hon. Friend is misinformed. No decision not to increase storage accommodation for food has been
    1198
    taken. At the present time plans involving the provision of certain additional s accommodation are under consideration.
    Mr. Sandys: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that he made a statement in the Debate on this subject which was certainly generally interpreted as meaning that he did not consider an increase of accommodation or construction as being necessary?
    Sir T. Inskip: I think that if my hon. Friend will read again what I said on 9th February, he will see that I did not rule out the provision of additional accommodation if it were ever found necessary.

  IMPERIAL AIRWAYS AND BRITISH AIRWAYS (CHAIRMEN).
  Mr. R. Robinsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what progress has been made by Imperial Airways and British Airways in securing the services of full-time chairmen, as recommended by the Cadman Report?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead): Both Imperial Airways and British Airways have accepted this recommendation of the Cadman Committee, and steps are being taken to implement it.
  Mr. Robinson: Can my hon. and gallant Friend say whether the present chairmen intend to resign, or whether they intend to devote their full-time services?
  Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: I cannot give an answer to that question.
  Mr. Mander: Do the same remarks apply to the appointment of full-time directors in addition to chairmen, as recommended?
  Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: Yes, the recommendation has been so interpreted.

  WEATHER STATISTICS.
  Mr. Dayasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he can make a statement as to the results upon which the computations of the average weather statistics have recently been made by the Meteorological Office for the purpose of producing reliable maps showing the relative humidity available for Great Britain; and whether this office proposes to issue these maps in the near future.
  Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: The Meteorological Office has prepared a book which it is hoped will be published next month, entitled "Averages of Humidity for the British Isles." This contains 26 charts showing the distribution of relative and absolute humidity over the British Isles for each month of the year and for the year as a whole, and also tables giving the average humidity at fixed hours at 40 stations; the average relative humidity for each hour at nine stations and the average vapour pressure for each hour at two stations.
  Mr. Day: In the meantime are replies sent to specific inquirers relating to humidity?
  Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: If the hon. Member addresses his inquiries to the Meteorological Office, no doubt they will see what answer they can give him.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: May I ask whether my hon. and gallant Friend will obtain statistics of the number of dull days in the year?

  CALEDONIAN POWER BILL.
  Mr. Boothbyasked the Minister of Transport whether he will give an undertaking to publish his report upon the Caledonian Power Bill before the Second Reading is taken in the House?
  The Minister of Transport (Mr. Burgin): It is not my practice to issue a report on a Private Bill, which is in effect a report for the use of the Committee, before the Bill has received a Second Reading in the first House, and I see no reason for departing from that practice in this case.
  Mr. Boothby: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it is very desirable in this case that the House should be in possession of all the available information before it is asked to come to a decision?
  Mr. Burgin: I understand that when this Bill comes before the House my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Coordination of Defence will be the chief Government spokesman. Whenever a Private Bill comes before the House in which the Ministry of Transport is concerned either I or my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary are available to give information to the
  1200
  House on transport matters, but it is really impossible that a report dealing with Committee points, made in accordance with Standing Orders should be issued before the Bill has had its Second Reading.
  Mr. T. Johnston: In view of the special circumstances of this case, and in view of the fact that there are grave divergencies of opinions among responsible engineers on this matter, does the right hon. Gentleman not think it desirable that the House of Commons should be in a position to give a reasoned opinion on Second Reading?
  Mr. Burgin: I do not think that any report that I make to the Committee would deal with matters of that kind. The necessary information will be placed at the disposal of the House by the appropriate Minister.
  Mr. Maxton: Although this is a Private Bill in name, it is a Public Bill in scope and importance. Is it not possible for the Minister of Transport to let hon. Members of the House have in advance the kind of information desired, in a White Paper or in some other way, if he cannot give us the report of the Committee, so that we may weigh the matter up in advance and not merely have to wait for the statement of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whose status is rather obscure to me.
  Sir Percy Harris: As this is a matter of great urgency and may have great repercussions on national interests, is it not very important for us to be able to make up our minds with full knowledge at our disposal?
  Mr. Burgin: I do not think that the matters dealt with in my report, which is made under the Standing Orders for the benefit of the Committee, will deal with the same points which hon. Members have been raising. I think those are matters which must come out in the Debate when the pros and cons of the Bill are discussed. I have no desire to keep any matters back, but the report pre-supposes that the Committee is dealing with the Bill, that is, after the Second Reading.
  Mr. Davidson: As I have a question down for to-morrow to the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, may I ask the Minister of Transport whether he will

  1201
  consult with the Minister for the Coordination of Defence in order to try to bring forward some report for the benefit of hon. Members? May I have an answer?
  Mr. Burgin: I would prefer to wait until to-morrow, when I have heard what my right hon. Friend has to say.

  TRANSPORT.

    CANAL VIADUCT BRIDGES, GLASGOW.
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Minister of Transport whether any action is contemplated to alter, for safety purposes, the canal viaduct bridges situated, one between Lochburn Road and Sandbank Road and one at Bilsland Drive, Mary-hill, Glasgow?
    Mr. Burgin: An agreement for the lengthening of the aqueduct over Maryhill Road is under discussion between the Glasgow Corporation and the London, Midland and Scottish Railway, who own the canal. The question of a grant from the Road Fund towards the cost of the scheme will be considered when the necessary details are available. I have informed the corporation that Bilsland Drive is not of sufficient importance to through traffic to warrant a grant from the Road Fund towards the lengthening of the aqueduct over the road. The alternative route by Ruchill Street crosses over the canal and has through traffic value; and I have approved in principle for grant a scheme for widening and reconstructing the bridge on that route.
    Mr. Davidson: May I assure the right hon. Gentleman that in Lochburn Road there is only a matter of inches between the tram rails and the walls of the bridge, and that it is a very great menace to pedestrians? Will he, therefore, hasten any scheme for an alteration?
    Mr. Burgin: Yes, I am aware of the facts and awaiting the details of the scheme.

    EAST LANCASHIRE ROAD (LIGHTING).
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made with the lighting of the Liverpool to Manchester East Lancashire road; and when it will be completed?
    Mr. Burgin: I have informed local authorities that as from 1st April next
    1202
    I shall be prepared to enter into agreements with the responsible lighting authorities to make a contribution at the rate of 50 per cent. towards the cost of installation and maintenance of new or improved systems of lighting on trunk roads. I have not yet received any application for the purpose in respect of those portions of the road in question which are in the trunk road category.

    TRAFFIC LIGHTS (POLICE CARS).
    Mr. H. G. Williamsasked the Minister of Transport whether police cars are required to obey the signals given by traffic lights?
    Mr. Burgin: Yes, Sir.

    WATFORD BY-PASS.
    Sir Arnold Gridleyasked the Minister of Transport whether he is now in a position to make a further statement concerning further threatened extension of ribbon development along the Watford by-pass road, and what further steps the highway authority are prepared to take in this matter?
    Mr. Burgin: I have communicated with the county council, and I am satisfied that they are fully aware of their powers under the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act. As the Act requires that every application shall be considered on its merits, I do not feel it would be proper for me to ask the county council to say in advance what decision they will take on any particular application.

    SERVICE ROADS.
    Sir A. Gridleyasked the Minister of Transport whether he is prepared to consider favourably the payment of grants towards the maintenance costs of service roads adjacent to trunk and classified roads and to acquire any necessary enabling powers?
    Mr. Burgin: No, Sir. I am not prepared to differentiate between service roads and other estate roads required for development purposes.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (MEMBERS' SECRETARIES' ROOMS).
  Lieut.-Colonel Heneageasked the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been drawn to the overcrowding in the Members' secretaries' rooms between the hours of 3 and 7, and

  1203
  also in the small room provided for typing; and whether he can arrange for increased accommodation?
  The First Commissioner of Works (Sir Philip Sassoon): Yes, Sir; but all available space in the building is fully occupied, and I regret that it is not practicable to allocate additional space for Members' secretaries and for typing.
  Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Is the right hon. Gentleman convinced that the space allotted for this purpose in the House would be considered sufficient in the case of a private firm?
  Mr. Maxton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not more than 12 Members can have accommodation for themselves and their secretaries at any given time?
  Sir P. Sassoon: The hon. Member knows that the accommodation available is fully occupied. If he can tell me how I can provide more accommodation I shall be only too glad.
  Mr. Maxton: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that in providing accommodation for one-fiftieth of the Members of this House he is carrying out his duties in a reasonable way.
  Viscountess Astor: May I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should take away the public bar and turn it into a secretaries' room?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    AIRCRAFT (EXPORTS).
    Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the President of the Board of Trade to what foreign countries and British Dominions aircraft were exported from Great Britain during the year 1937; and how many aircraft were sent to each of these countries, respectively?
    Mr. R. S. Hudson (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): As the answer involves a table of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT, together with the corresponding figures of exports of aeroplane engines, for which the hon. Member has asked in a separate question.
    Following is the answer:
    Table showing the number of complete aeroplanes and aeroplane engines, of United Kingdom manufacture, exported from this country during 1937, distinguishing the countries to which consigned.

    Countries to which consigned.

    Complete Aeroplanes.

    Aeroplane engines.

    Number.

    Number.

    Irish Free State

    4

    1

    Channel Islands

    —

    6

    Union of South Africa (excluding South-West Africa Territory).

    60

    60

    Southern Rhodesia

    4

    1

    Kenya

    7

    3

    Anglo-Egyptian Sudan

    1

    2

    British India and Burma

    19

    9

    Straits Settlements and Dependencies (including Labuan).

    6

    7

    Federated Malay Straits

    3

    —

    Hong Kong

    12

    33

    Australia

    73

    32

    Territory of Papua (including the Mandated Territory of New Guinea).

    1

    4

    New Zealand

    32

    1

    Canada

    14

    57

    Bermuda

    —

    6

    Other British Countries

    4

    3

    Finland

    8

    16

    Latvia

    15

    22

    Lithuania

    5

    7

    Sweden

    10

    13

    Denmark (including Faröe Islands).

    3

    1

    Poland (including Dantzig)

    2

    51

    Germany

    1

    2

    Netherlands

    6

    68

    Belgium

    25

    27

    France

    31

    11

    Switzerland

    6

    2

    Portugal

    10

    11

    Austria

    5

    5

    Czechoslovakia

    1

    15

    Yugoslavia

    14

    24

    Greece

    7

    8

    Rumania

    5

    —

    Turkey

    11

    3

    Egypt

    20

    19

    Iraq

    27

    4

    Iran

    —

    14

    Afghanistan

    8

    —

    Siam

    —

    2

    China (exclusive of Hong Kong, Macao, Manchuria and leased territories).

    14

    —

    Japan (including Formosa)

    1

    23

    Brazil

    16

    10

    Uruguay

    11

    —

    Other foreign countries

    5

    5

    Total

    507

    588

    COD LIVER OIL.
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the President of the Board of Trade what were the

    1205
    imports of cod liver oil from Newfoundland in 1929 and 1937, respectively, and the production of the said oil in the United Kingdom in the same years; and what were the average prices of the said oil in those years?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Euan Wallace): As the answer involves a number of figures, I will, with the hon. and learned Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    Total imports into the United Kingdom of cod liver oil consigned from Newfoundland (including the coast of Labrador) amounted to 519 tons in 1929 and to 871 tons in 1937; the bulk of these imports consisted of unrefined oil used for industrial purposes. Particulars of United Kingdom production in these years are not available but it is known to have increased substantially. For Newfoundland oil, I have no detailed price information for the years in question, but finest Lofoten steam-refined non-freezing medicinal cod liver oil is quoted regularly in the "Chemist and Druggist," and for that description the price averaged about no shillings per barrel, c.i.f. London, in 1929 and 98.75 shillings in

  SCOTLAND.

    LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANIES (ANNUAL MEETINGS).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is in Scotland a sense of hardship among shareholders of limited companies registered in Scotland when such companies hold their annual general meetings in England; and whether he will introduce legislation requiring such companies to hold their annual general meetings in Scotland?
    Captain Wallace: I have not so far received any representations to this effect, and the Companies Act, 1929, does not contain any provision as to where the annual general meeting is to be held. If, however, the hon. and learned Member will send me particulars of any case he has in mind, I will look into it.
    Mr. Johnstonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will give a statement showing the amount of local
    1206
    rates leviable per head of the population in each of the large towns and cities in Scotland for the year 1937?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Wedderburn): As the answer involves a table of figures, I will, with the right hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the table:

    Estimated rate of assessment per head of estimated population in the year 1937–38.

    Authority.

    Large Burghs.

    £

    s.

    d.

    Aberdeen

    …

    3

    14

    3

    Airdrie

    …

    3

    15

    4

    Arbroath

    …

    2

    14

    4

    Ayr

    …

    5

    4

    8

    Clydebank

    …

    5

    1

    1

    Coatbridge

    …

    3

    14

    3

    Dumbarton

    …

    3

    4

    5

    Dumfries

    …

    4

    12

    5

    Dundee

    …

    4

    4

    0

    Dunfermline

    …

    3

    18

    1

    Edinburgh

    …

    4

    13

    0

    Falkirk

    …

    4

    9

    0

    Glasgow

    …

    6

    17

    9

    Greenock

    …

    3

    19

    7

    Hamilton

    …

    4

    3

    1

    Inverness

    …

    4

    7

    1

    Kilmarnock

    …

    4

    0

    7

    Kircaldy

    …

    3

    18

    1

    Motherwell and Wishaw

    …

    3

    6

    3

    Paisley

    …

    3

    15

    7

    Perth

    …

    3

    18

    9

    Port Glasgow

    …

    2

    9

    6

    Rutherglen

    …

    4

    9

    5

    Stirling

    …

    4

    17

    2

    The figures are based on returns received from the rating authorities of the estimated amount of the assessments to be collected in the year ending on 15th May, 1938, and cover all rates, including water rates.

    UNCLAIMED BANK DEPOSITS.
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, what is the amount of unclaimed deposits lying in the banks in Scotland as at 31st December, 1937, or other convenient date; and whether he has any proposals to make regarding the most suitable application of such deposits in the interests of Scotland?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut.-Colonel Colville): I have no information regarding the amount of unclaimed deposits in the banks in Scotland at the present time, but there is no evidence to suggest that the amount is considerable. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. Gibson: Has the right hon. and gallant Member consulted the Lord Ordinary and the King's Remembrancer? Is he aware that during the war these deposits were made available for national purposes?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: The hon. and learned Member will recollect that this question was examined by a Select Committee in 1919 and it was decided to take no action. Any legislation to appropriate these balances for the Treasury would be highly contentious.
    Mr. McGovern: Will the Financial Secretary supply a list so that we can scrutinise them?

  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE.
  Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Health how many persons in the City of Liverpool were in receipt of public assistance on the last day of February; how many of these were persons in receipt of State-provided old age pensions; and what was the total cost per week to the ratepayers and the annual cost in terms of rate poundage?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernays): As the answer is rather long, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the answer:
  On Saturday, 26th February, 1938, the nearest date to the last day of February for which figures are available, 61,638 persons in the City of Liverpool were in receipt of poor relief. The only return made to my Department which distinguishes the number of old age pensioners in receipt of poor relief is that relating to 1st January in each year. On 1st January, 1938, 7,719 old age pensioners in the City of Liverpool were in receipt of poor relief. As regards the last part of the hon. Member's question the only information in the possession of my Department regarding the cost of poor relief in the City of Liverpool in February, 1938, relates to out-relief in money and kind. The average weekly cost of such relief in that month was £18,704. In the year 1936–37, the latest year for which figures are available, the revenue expenditure of the Liverpool Town Council on poor relief which fell
  1208
  to be met out of rates and the block grant under the Local Government Act, 1929, was £1,609,997, equivalent to a rate in the £ of 5s. 6.2d. Since 1st April, 1930, it has not been possible to state to what extent the cost of any particular service has fallen on rates, inasmuch as the block grants are applicable to local government expenses generally and cannot be apportioned to individual services.
  Mr. Gordon Macdonaldasked the Minister of Health the number of persons in receipt of public assistance in July, 1931, and on the latest date on which figures are available, giving separate figures for Lancashire?
  Mr. Bernays: On the last Saturday in July, 1931, the number for England and Wales, excluding rate-aided patients in mental hospitals, persons in receipt of domiciliary medical relief only and casuals, was 972,909. The corresponding number on Saturday, 5th March, 1938, the latest date for which figures are available, was 1,072,191. The figures for the administrative county of Lancaster together with the 17 associated county boroughs were 140,561 and 176,623 respectively.

  RATING STATISTICS.
  Mr. Johnstonasked the Minister of Health whether he will give a statement showing the amount of local rates leviable per head of the population in a representative number of the larger cities in England and Wales for the year 1937?
  Mr. Bernays: The statement entitled "Rates and Rateable Values in England and Wales" published annually by my Department shows for each county borough the average amount of the rates collected per head of population. The statement relating to the year 1937–38 will be published in the near future, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to be good enough to await its issue.
  Mr. Johnston: May I ask, in view of possible discussion in Committee A, whether the figures are available for the year 1936?
  Mr. Bernays: I will make inquiries.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: Can the document be placed in the Vote Office?
  Mr. Bernays: I will consult my right hon. Friend.

  COLONIES AND PROTECTORATES (SURVEY WORK).
  Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for War in which colonies or protectorates there are at present self-aided parties of Royal Engineers and /or Royal Artillery officers employed on survey work?
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Sir Victor Warrender): In British Guiana, Jamaica and Malaya. There is also a Royal Engineer survey party working in Iraq.
  Mr. Day: Is it intended to increase the activities of the parties who work with the Royal Engineers?
  Sir V. Warrender: These services could be increased if the supply of officers was available.
  Sir W. Davison: Is the hon. Member aware of the delay in the ordinance survey, and can nothing be done to expedite that?

  WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACTS.
  Sir N. Grattan-Doyleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the complexity of the law relating to the protection of wild birds; and whether, with a view to the simplification and the co-ordination of the provisions contained in county and county borough Acts on the subject, he will appoint a Departmental Committee of inquiry?
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): My right hon. Friend's attention has been called to the need for revision of the Wild Birds Protection Acts and the matter is under consideration. My right hon. Friend is in touch with representative ornithologists, but he does not think that a Departmental inquiry would be useful in present circumstances.

  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Home Secretary whether he will take action to secure that all private underground airraid shelters shall be placed at the disposal of local authorities in the eventuality of war?
  Mr. Lloyd: Local authorities are being asked to survey accommodation which
  1210
  could be made available to the public by arrangement with the owners or occupiers of the premises.
  Mr. Sorensen: Does that imply that in the case of war these private shelters will be available for the general population?
  Mr. Lloyd: I think we should wait until we see the results of the surveys made by local authorities.
  Mr. Sorensen: Can the Under-Secretary indicate that some answer will be given to this very important point?
  Mr. Lloyd: That is the answer.
  Mr. Mander: To which shelter is the Cabinet going?
  Mr. R. C. Morrisonasked the Home Secretary whether any definite understanding has yet been reached with the Metropolitan Water Board with regard to the protection against air raids of the water supply of their area?
  Mr. Lloyd: My right hon. Friend has invited the Chairman of the Board to discuss this matter with him at the earliest convenient opportunity.

  ACCIDENT, DAGENHAM.
  Mr. Thorneasked the Home Secretary whether he can give any information in connection with the crane-grab accident at Dagenham on Saturday, 12th March; what was the cause of the accident; and how many men were injured?
  Mr. Lloyd: I understand that this accident was due to a workman endeavouring to recover his shovel as the grab was being swung into the hold. His hand was crushed between the grab and a stanchion. No other person was injured, and there does not appear to have been any breach of the regulations under the Factory Acts.

  ACCIDENT, MILLOM IRONWORKS.
  Mr. Thorneasked the Home Secretary whether he can give any information in connection with a man killed by an electrically-controlled lift at the Millom ironworks on Wednesday last; and what was the cause of the accident?
  Mr. Lloyd: This accident was due to the sudden descent of the cage for a distance of about six feet, whilst trucks were being removed. The cause has not been definitely discovered, but it is thought that the driver must have inadvertently moved the controller handle.

  FACTORY, GATESHEAD (DISPUTE).
  Mr. Kellyasked the Minister of Labour the results of the interview between the Chief Conciliation Officer of his Department, the manager of the Landauer date factory, Gateshead, and a representative of the Transport and General Workers' Union on 2nd February; whether he is aware that the manager has since declared that he is not prepared to guarantee the wages for a further period; and whether he proposes to take any further action in the matter?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Lennox-Boyd): At the meeting on 2nd February an agreement was reached between the firm and the union. I am not aware of the precise position at present regarding the guaranteed wages, but I understand that contact has been maintained between the parties. As the hon. Member knows, the good offices of the Ministry are at the disposal of the parties at any time.
  Mr. Kelly: In view of the low wages paid to these women, 9s. 6d. per week, will the hon. Member follow this matter up closely to see that something is done that they may be adequately paid?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Chief Conciliation Officer in Leeds is in touch with the manager of the factory, and with the Newcastle office of the Transport and General Workers' Union, and the latter has assured him that if he wishes to have the assistance of the Department he will get in touch with the Conciliation Officer.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Halifax) Bill, without Amendment.
Cinematograph Films Bill, with Amendments.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]

PUBLIC PETITIONS.
First Report from the Committee on Public Petitions, with an Appendix, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

  UNEMPLOYMENT AND ECONOMIC CONDITIONS.
  3.47 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Greenwood: I desire to raise a question of great importance to the people of this country. While heavy clouds gather over the international situation, heavy clouds are hanging over the people of this country because of the state of unemployment. I want to ask what preparations, if any His Majesty's Government are making to deal with what is bound to be a tragedy for the people of this country unless some steps are taken to meet it. In the King's Speech for the present Session this statement appeared:
  "I rejoice to know that the outlook for trade and industry remains favourable, and that there is every indication that the progress made in the last year will be maintained. My Government will continue to take all possible measures to ensure industrial activity at home and to develop our overseas trade."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1937; col. 8, Vol. 328.]
  That statement was made to the House on 26th October last, but before then the Prime Minister, speaking at the annual conference of the National Union of Conservative and Unionist Associations at Scarborough, said:
  "There is still no visible signs of that slump which our political opponents continue to prophesy with such obviously pleasurable anticipation."
  The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has made several references to this problem, but I will quote only one. In his New Year message to that great organ of public opinion called "Home and Empire," he wrote:
  "Our Socialist opponents have recently talked a great deal about what they term 'the coming slump.' They put so much zest into the gloomy prophecies of a bad time just round the corner that one is almost forced to the conclusion that the wish is father to the thought."
  I resent that statement, and I quote it only to indicate the attitude of mind in
  1220
  which the Government approach a problem which is exercising the minds of business men all over the country and the minds of economists who have been spending a good deal of time in studying it. In the Debate on the King's Speech on 27th October, 1937, hon. Members opposite were, as usual, a little light in their manner of dealing with these things, as though they were matters for levity. In my speech in that Debate, I said:
  "The fundamentals of our economic life remain what they were [Laughter]—
  The laughter was by hon. Members opposite. I went on to say:
  "Hon. Members think this amusing, but it happens to be true, and unless you begin to think about taking steps now, and get your steps ready, nothing can prevent a trade slump in the next three years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1937; col. 90; Vol. 328.]
  I said that a few months ago, and both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have commented on it in speeches in the country. What is the position to-day? Statements have been made by the Prime Minister and by other Members of the Cabinet that everything, economically, is favourable. The Government have invented a new word. I watched with interest the change in their method of describing the distressed areas. They were called distressed areas, they were called depressed areas, and they were called worse things; but His Majesty's Government, in order to get out of the difficulty, called them Special Areas, and tried to remove all the horrible implications of calling them either distressed or depressed areas. Now the Government have invented a new word. Instead of talking of a slump, they call it a recession; but the fact still remains the same.
  What is the position? Since last September, unemployment has been increasing. From September to October, the figures of unemployment increased by 51,000; from October to November, during the time in which the Prime Minister put into the King's Speech a statement that the outlook was good, unemployment increased by 109,000; from December to January, there was an increase of 162,000. The figures increased from 1,339,000 to 1,827,000 between September and January. In February of this year, the figures, from which no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will draw comfort, did not increase, but went down

  1221
  by 17,000. But the last figures show that we have in this country as registered unemployed persons 1,810,000 people. It may be that there are explanations. Indeed, in December, faced with that enormous increase in unemployment, the right hon. Gentleman made a most elaborate explanation which was published in all the newspapers. He said it was due to bad weather—bad weather from the Government's point of view, no doubt—but when one looks at the Bulletins of the London and Cambridge Economic Service, which are regarded as authoritative statements, one finds that their view in January on the December unemployment figures was as follows:
  "The increase in unemployment was accentuated in December. After all allowance is made for possible interruption of outdoor work by the severe weather in the week of the count, it was found that there was an increase both in temporary and in complete unemployment in a great number of industries."
  It may be that to-day the situation is rather brighter than it was. It is true that the February figures were somewhat down, as one would have expected normally. It may be that the economic situation in America is not quite as ominous as it was a few months ago, but there are still many disturbing factors in the situation which show that the economic position is not as stable as the Government apparently would wish the country to believe. I would like the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour to consider the position of wholesale prices, the adverse balance of trade, industrial securities, and the accumulating stocks in the industrial field. The Prime Minister and other Members of the Government have tried to allay public fears in this matter, and most of the chairmen of the banks have tried to pour oil on troubled waters; but as I said before, fundamentally the situation still remains the same. This matter is not one which affects this country alone. The Prime Minister may wish to live in political isolation, but at least he cannot pretend that he can live in economic isolation. It is clear that we are very much under the influence of wide and general economic circumstances. I will again quote from the Bulletin of the London and Cambridge Economic Service, which no doubt the right hon. Gentleman has himself perused. As late as 7th February of this year, they stated:
  1222
  "To the British trader, producer and investor events abroad now have peculiar significance, for the course of trade in Britian is at this moment more than ever sensitive to the course of trade in the world. The trend of world prices and the purchasing power of foreign primary producers; the internal policies of the French and American Governments and the external policy of its own Government, these are the order of things to which this country must now look in order to read the outlook fo its own prosperity. The outlook for Britain coincides with the outlook of the world."
  Who can foresee now, in these difficult circumstances, what is going to be the outlook of the world in the coming months? Even if there were no other indications economically of the prospect of trade recession, the fact that the international situation is so uncertain ought to convince the Government of the need for early steps to deal with any possible adverse direction of trade and unemployment. So far as I have been able to follow the speeches of the Prime Minister, he does not appear to believe that the trade cycle is a reality. There are people, not very many, who believe that there are irregular ups and downs of trade which cannot be forecast. But there are economists—I shall quote an old colleague of mine, Professor MacGregor, who is now Professor of Economics at Oxford—who have shown quite clearly that these ups and downs of trade are not accidental. With that pawky Scottish humour that he possesses he worked out the ups and downs of shipwrecks in this country between 1870 and 1910. He worked out the number of British emigrants from this country between those years. They went up and down and there was no cause or relation between the ups and downs. But that is not so as regards trade. It is perfectly plain that there is an ebb and flow of trade. I have not time to analyse the reasons, but that the ebb and flow are caused by economic forces is undoubted.
  The "Financial News" is not a paper which I normally read for my political views, but, after all, it is interested in all these financial and commercial questions. On 10th June of last year, in a leading article, the "Financial News" said:
  "Despite the 'new economics' it seems abundantly clear that the fundamental causes which induce cyclical fluctuations in industry and trade are as strong as ever. Their effects may be mitigated, of course, by wise public policy or by more fortuitous events

  1223
  like rearmament programmes. But it seems certain that in the absence of positive action by the Government, trade activity will begin to decline when the level of direct and indirect rearmament expenditure begins to decline."
  There may be factors to prolong a trade cycle; there may be factors reducing or increasing the severity of the trade cycle; it may well be that the rearmament programme of the Government will prolong the trade cycle; but that when that programme ends there may be a situation of great gravity, cannot be doubted. In the report of the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee that note is struck. I do not propose to deal with the proposals of the Committee, or the Orders, but I am bound to draw the attention of the House to the conclusions of the Committee with regard to the future prospect of trade in this country. The committee say:
  "Till recently there was reason to hope that the balance (in the Fund) at the end of 1937 would be materially greater than it has proved to be."
  The report goes on to deal with the very substantial increase in unemployment in the last quarter of last year, and the committee are naturally alarmed about it. They say:
  "The sudden change in the course of unemployment has reduced materially the surplus above original expectations which till recently we hoped to be able to declare at the end of 1937."
  The committee go on to say that they had had the benefit of a discussion with Mr. H. D. Henderson, a Cambridge economist of some repute, who came before them representing the Committee on Economic Information of the Government's Economic Advisory Council, and this was Mr. Henderson's conclusion, in November, 1936:
  "That in view of the Defence programme, there is practically no prospect of an appreciable recession of employment from the present level for 1937 and for some time thereafter.
  That on the completion of the intensive phase of the Defence programme, and in the normal course of the trade cycle we should be prepared for a relatively severe recession."
  The committee go on to say later:
  "Looking beyond the present time, the view is changed. Unemployment at the end of 1937 was already above the level of unemployment in November, 1936. It is anything but certain to-day that there will be no appreciable recession of employment from that level 'for some time' after the end of 1937.
  1224
  The only question now is how great the immediate recession will be. Are we to suppose that 'the normal course of the trade cycle' is already operating to bring 'a relatively severe recession' into early prospect? Are we to expect, on the other hand, that the decline of employment now in progress will be arrested before anything that can fairly be called depression is reached? If 'the normal course of the trade cycle' is to be judged from experience in the past, there are some reasons for expecting that the movement of employment for several years will now be steadily downward."
  I do not want to read all the relevant passages of the report, but it is perfectly clear that this committee, presided over by Sir William Beveridge, who is an authority on these matters—he was the first man who made a scientific study of unemployment—came to the conclusion that the outlook is not as bright as the Government would have had us believe when the King's Speech was brought before the House last October. Because of their views this very large balance which they have in the fund is now to be diverted, because they feel that they must keep it in hand instead of it being given in additional benefits to the unemployed. If the Government do not take that committee's point of view, why have they accepted the committee's recommendation? Why have the Government not said, "This is nonsense; the trade situation is good. This large and increasing balance ought to be used for increased benefits." The fact that the Minister of Labour has accepted the committee's report means one of two things, and he can have it either way, so far as I am concerned. It means that he is unwilling to give anything more to the unemployed, or it means that the Government know that the conclusion in the report is a right conclusion. I know that the Government are banking on their rearmament policy. I am certain now that they are banking on an intensification of their rearmament policy. But only this month the "Financial News," which I look upon as a great authority in these matters, said:
  "The acceleration of rearmament is so far producing very little industrial effect. Increased employment in the aircraft industry evidently cannot offset increased unemployment in the motor and cycle trades."
  The article goes on to say:
  "From the point of view of employment itself, there is not much doubt that fewer workers are required for the production of armaments than were needed for the job of preparation."

  1225
  If there be an increase in our rearmament programme it may mean postponing the economic tendencies of our time. But what will happen when the world rearmament programme is completed? We are not the only nation that is rearming; nearly all great nations are feverishly rearming. When that comes to an end what will happen? The world will have been immeasurably impoverished by having to pour out its resources to build up these enormous armaments. The world is now pouring out its resources on a scale hitherto unknown, on a scale larger than that of the years from 1914 to 1918, and when that programme has been completed, if there is no war, what will happen? The world, crushed by the weight of the armaments it has created, will sink into the slough of despond, and we are bound to have the greatest depression within living memory unless active and constructive steps are taken now—now. The policy of preparedness to meet what is bound to come is the only way to prevent the worst effects of a very great recession in trade. The views which I have so far expressed are not confined to the members of my party. They are shared by all kinds of people. The "Economist" on 23rd October last year, just before the Debate on the King's Speech—which told us that everything was all right—said:
  "It would be foolhardy in the extreme to deny the probability of a setback of some degree occurring at some time in the next three years. Before the General Election "—
  The "Economist" had no knowledge then of the situation that is in existence now—
  "the Government will almost certainly be faced with the necessity of explaining away a mounting total of unemployment."
  It will be within the knowledge of hon. Members that Professor Keynes at the beginning of last year wrote a series of three articles which were headed" How to Avoid a Slump: Looking Ahead." It will also be within the recollection of the House that in June of last year a body of very distinguished economists, including the junior Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter), in a letter to the "Times," said:
  "We, the undersigned economists in Oxford, are agreed upon the danger of a recession in trade activity leading to a severe depression within the next few years, and consider that it will be impossible to prevent this slump, or even effectively to mitigate it,
  1226
  unless preparations are made for this purpose before the depression starts."
  The "Times" at the beginning of January of this year had a leading article headed "Planning for Prosperity" in which it referred to a report published in Sweden on this very problem of preparing in advance for what are now called recessions of trade. It said of that report:
  "It is emphasised again and again throughout the report that the best effects of national' or local works cannot be attained unless they are planned well in advance."
  I do not read any more of the argument, but it was perfectly clear from that article that the writer realised that it would be injudicious for this country to wait until the evil day had arrived before any steps were taken. A very distinguished indusltrialist, Lord Austin, took the same view in the autumn of last year when he said:
  "I think that the present is the time to formulate plans for preventing a slump, before the rearmament spurt is on the wane."
  My last quotation—because I wish to fortify myself with the views of people who do not share my political outlook—is from the chairman of Barclays Bank, Mr. Fisher, who, early this year, at the annual meeting of the bank, said:
  "Our aim must be to ensure that as the work is completed "—
  he was speaking of war work and rearmament—
  "other work will be ready to take its place and that pre-occupation with production for defence purposes does not cause us to neglect our overseas markets."
  I wish to know whether the Government accept this view that, sooner or later when the rearmament drive has been completed, unless active steps are taken meantime, we shall be faced with very substantial unemployment? If the Government hides its head in the sand and says, "This thing is not going to happen," then the Government is hopeless. I believe it is hopeless anyhow, but if it is still living in this wonder-world of good trade, and if it believes that that will continue, then clearly it is wrong. But if it is believed by the Government—and I could quote speeches by the Prime Minister to this effect—that trade will not remain good for ever, then we are entitled to ask what steps have been taken already by the Government to deal with this eventuality. I am sorry that the junior Member for Oxford University is not here, because he has pointed out that it takes two years to get these schemes going.
  Mr. Dingle Foot: Two or three years.
  Mr. Greenwood: Therefore, unless the schemes are ready now, it is perfectly clear that we shall not be in a proper position to deal with them when the time comes. The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have said about me and my friends that if we talk about a slump we shall bring it about. That is giving us credit for greater economic power than we have ever claimed to possess. I cannot imagine hard-boiled business men taking any notice of any threats from anybody, least of all anything that looks like a threat from a very humble person like myself. If the grave situation which we fear should arise—and I hope the Government will take steps to prevent it—then it is going to be far worse than the situation which existed between 1929 and 1931. Then we had a peak figure of over 3,000,000 unemployed. In the last six years the processes of rationalisation and mechanisation have been carried on, and I can foresee the possibility unless we are active now, when the big break comes, after the world's biggest expenditure on destructive armaments, of a volume of unemployment in this country which will not be 3,000,000 but will be 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 or 7,000,000 or even 8,000,000. I am not a scaremonger. It is no pleasure to me to stand here and warn the people whom I represent that that may be their fate, but I should not be honest to the House and the country if I did not point out the dreadful possibilities of delay in preparing for what is bound to come.
  If there is any case for planning our national life, that case has been proved by the prospects of a recession in trade, within what period it is difficult to say, but within the next few years. There is obviously a need for planning now on broad and wise lines. If we do not plan we shall be driven, in a state of panic to begin all kinds of schemes of public works un-co-ordinated and unregulated. Now is the time for this nation, through its Government, to plan for the development of our national resources and our national assets, schemes which can be put into operation when trade begins to break. They cannot be hastily devised. The Government is now beginning to coordinate its rearmament programme, and it has not been too successful in that. But, at least, it is realising that the rearmament problem which is before it,
  1228
  must be dealt with on broad lines. If it be possible for our nation to spend its treasure on the scale it is now spending for rearmament, it is right that it should have regard to the use of its resources to deal with the problem of national development when trade becomes bad.
  There was an interesting reference in the leading artice in the "Times" which I have already quoted, to Birmingham's policy in this matter. Whenever I see anything about Birmingham, I always read it with very great interest. Birmingham pioneered the way to municipal banks, and I am all in favour of watching the actions of that very important city. Birmingham, we are told, is now taking power to borrow money in order that when bad times come it will be able to put its plans into operation. I should have thought that what is right for Birmingham would be right for Britain. Birmingham thinks it is good, and so do I, to take time by the forelock. What I wish to ask the Minister—and I hope he will address his mind to the matter—is whether steps are being taken now to prepare plans? I do not mean plans for digging holes and filling them up again, but plans for the enrichment of our national life. Are plans being prepared and have the Government any organisation? The have the Committee of Imperial Defence. They ought to have their Committee of National Defence against unemployment and poverty. Have they any framework of organisation for dealing with this problem? Are they taking any steps in conjunction with local authorities and others? Are they making financial provision to deal with this problem? Are they taking this problem as seriously as other people outside this House are taking it?
  I think we are entitled to a reasoned statement from the right hon. Gentleman on those points. It is no use trying to fob us off by saying that things are not as bad as they look. It is no use saying, as the right hon. Gentleman said about the February figures, that the figures for this month will be a pleasant surprise for everybody. It cannot be pleasant for anybody to know that, in this period of so-called "boom," we have 1,800,000 people out of work. That will not meet what we require from this side of the House. We raise this question in all seriousness, not because we want to stampede people, but because we feel the

  1229
  gravity of the economic situation, the urgency of the need for constructive plans, and to allay, I am bound to say, our fears that the Government are not taking the necessary measures. I hope we shall have from the right hon. Gentleman specific answers to my questions.
  4.31 p.m.
  Mr. Boothby: The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), who has just sat down, made, if I may say so, a very interesting and constructive speech, and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour will, when he comes to reply, deal with some of the points that he has raised. I do not agree with all of them, but I think the House as a whole would agree that the right hon. Gentleman was seeking to find some constructive solution, not on purely party lines, for the unemployment problem which confronts us. It is rather a relief for the House to turn from the highly emotional subjects with which we have been dealing of late to the comparative calm of economics, in which our passions need not be severely engaged. In one of his concluding sentences the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down referred to "this so-called boom." I would rather like him to accompany me one day to the City of London and talk to the gentlemen there about a boom at the present time. I am sure they would not agree with him. In fact, it is true to say that we are at the moment passing through a rather severe, although we hope a purely temporary, economic crisis. It is a crisis of confidence; and I think, from a purely economic point of view, it is a quite unnecessary crisis, because there is no evidence to show that we are in what is called a cyclical depression. It might have been expected, I think, that there would be some kind of crisis of confidence arising out of the international situation, but I think this crisis has been aggravated, both here and in the United States, by some other factors in addition to the international situation, factors which I want to deal with for a moment or two.
  It is a very dangerous thing for this country and for the democracies of the world that this confidence crisis should have come upon us at this particular moment, because, whatever anybody may say, the fundamental strength of the democratic countries of the world is their economic strength. It is their most valuable asset, and we ought never to forget
  1230
  it, either on this side of the Atlantic Ocean or on the other. If we undermine our economic system, we shall really be up against it. There are signs of a definite industrial recession in this country at the moment as well as a purely financial crisis. The available figures all go to prove it, and the Minister of Labour will not, I think, be able to gainsay the fact that some of the news from the industrial areas in this country, even from the iron and steel areas, is disquieting. There has been a definite falling-off of orders during the last few weeks in a very large number of industries in this country, even in the heavy industries, which one had thought were going to be immune for some considerable time to come. I do not think it does any good to say there is no recession. There is, and we must face it.
  We have to do something about it, and without being unduly critical, I would like to say that I think the Government as a whole, and in particular the Chancellor of the Exchequer, have not shown any very great imagination during the last six or seven months. They have adopted a completely passive attitude in the face of this economic crisis. First of all, for a long time they said it did not exist at all. Now that it is patent to them and to everybody else that it does exist, they still produce no constructive action of any kind to deal with it; and I cannot understand such an attitude on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is faced with steadily mounting expenditure and steadily decreasing revenue. We are all right this year. We are obviously going to have a satisfactory surplus. But it is next year and the year after, that cause very great anxiety. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not in future get the revenue from Stamp Duties, for example, that he has estimated. It is not the Budget of 1938–39 that gives cause for anxiety, but the Budget of 1940–41, unless there is a very considerable revival of trade and industrial activity in this country.
  I would like to say again what I have said in this House before, that I think his attitude of complete passivity in the face of the wholly unnecessary gold scare which lasted for several months last year was quite inexcusable. If you undermine confidence in your currency, you undermine confidence in everything. There was a gold scare which events proved was completely unjustified, and that was the

  1231
  beginning of something like a panic, which has steadily increased, until now we find ourselves faced with a very unpleasant, and, as I believe, largely unnecessary economic recession. We have suffered for the last six months from steadily increasing deflation; and it has been absolutely disastrous, as deflation always is. No constructive action has so far been taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, except to say that there has been no deflation. The flow of investment into industry, both here and in the United States, has for the time being completely dried up, and we have to face that fact. Yet the economic system under which we live depends for its success and prosperity upon a steady flow of investment into the capital industries, stimulated by confidence and anticipated profits; and when that dries up, you are bound to get into very serious trouble. The deflation continues at the present moment, accompanied by a fall in prices, and a catastrophic fall in values. I know that hon. and right hon. Members opposite have no great sympathy for the capitalists, but no hon. Member in this House will say that it is a good thing to have the capital value of wealth in the democratic countries of the world written down by some thousands of millions of pounds over a period of about nine months. That is bound to have an effect upon trade and industry, and a most serious effect upon purchasing power all over the world.
  I would like to remind hon. Members, and particularly my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, that the fall in security values and in commodity prices over the period of about three months between September and December last year was much steeper than the comparable fall in 1929–30. I think it is the sharpest fall ever recorded in the economic history of the world; and it is a matter now of vital urgency to check it, because if we do not succeed in doing so, and in doing so in the fairly near future, I, for one, am convinced that we shall have to face the possibility of a slump which, as the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has said, will far exceed in magnitude and extent the slump of 1929–31. I think that would be absolutely disastrous for the nation at the present time. I think it would do more to bring about war than all the foreign policies or absence of
  1232
  foreign policies that you can imagine; and I hope the Government are taking serious thought with regard to what constructive action can be taken to restore confidence and stop the deflationary spiral, as the economists call it, in which we are gripped.
  It is obvious that one method which we ought to pursue and must pursue, is a measure of reflation to counteract the deflation which has taken place. And I hope the Government will not be led away into any exaggerated ideas of what this country can now bear in the way of increased taxation. I think that a year ago the country could have sustained a considerable measure of increased taxation, but now I am quite certain that we cannot bear any large measure of increased taxation, and that if it is imposed, the law of diminishing returns will apply. It is necessary—and we can afford to do it—that any further measures of rearmament, and any further capital construction, should be financed by means of loans. The Government's credit is high, the supply of gold is ample for the purpose, and we can certainly borrow at very reasonable rates for capital expenditure which will stand us in good stead for some considerable period of years to come.
  I would only like to say one thing with regard to what the right hon. Member for Wakefield said about planning for schemes. It is, of course, a very important subject, and I think we in this country do lack adequate statistical information with regard to what public works schemes are being carried on. I do not think there is any proper central bureau or authority which can co-ordinate these things. No hon. Member of this House can find out what schemes are being undertaken by what local authorities in the country at any given period, or what schemes are being held up, and why. The first thing that we require, if we are to have any constructive planning with regard to public works schemes, is adequate information with regard to them, which we have not got at the present time; and I beg my right hon. Friend to look into that aspect of the situation. Apart from desirability of information, it is clearly undesirable to embark upon unnecessary schemes of capital works for the cure of unemployment so long as we have a great rearmament programme in progress. I agree with the

  1233
  right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that we ought to be planning those schemes at the present time. We ought to be providing ourselves with adequate information, we ought to be requiring local authorities to furnish the central Government with information about what they can do, about what is urgent and what is less urgent, and about the money that would be required; but now, when we are still in the midst of a vast rearmament programme, is not the moment to embark upon large schemes of public works.
  What we most want at present is adequate information, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider this matter. I am not one of those who have ever believed that you can spend your way out of a real depression by more public works. They are only palliatives, in the end. They may help, and it is obviously silly to embark upon public works at a period of boom and to restrict those public works at a period of depression.
  Mr. Shinwell: I understood the hon. Gentleman to say there was no boom.
  Mr. Boothby: At the moment we are going through a financial rather than an industrial crisis, and I am apprehensive that, unless steps are taken to stop the deflationary movement in the financial world, we may find ourselves in a very severe industrial depression; but with the present rearmament programme, it is obvious that we cannot say that we are now in a severe industrial depression. There is a very severe danger of it, but the industrial depression which may come, unless deflation is checked will not be an industrial depression involving 1,800,000 unemployed, but one of the order of 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 unemployed. That is what we have to try and avoid at all costs. These public works schemes are in any case palliatives, and while it is undesirable to proceed with great construction programmes in times when there are other forms of capital development like rearmament proceeding, and while it is equally silly to hold them up in times of depression, it is a fatal attitude of mind to get into to think you can alter a major economic trend simply by holding up or expanding the construction of public works.
  In the end we in this country depend, and will always depend, for our prosperity upon international trade. We can
  1234
  never get away from that fact, and it is that fact to which the Government, I think, should chiefly direct their attention. They asked M. Van Zeeland to conduct an inquiry into the possibility of reviving international trade a few months ago, and he presented a most interesting report. One of the most interesting and constructive suggestions in that report was that we should try to call the nations together, with a view to ascertaining whether we could not have a pact of economic collaboration. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government propose to take any action along this line in the near future, because I think it would do very much to appease the situation in Europe at the present moment, even if to begin with you could get only half-a-dozen of the smaller nations to join with you in such a plan.
  But, of course, it is hopeless to expect a revival of trade, it is hopeless to expect any form of economic co-operation between the nations of the world, until you have settled the fundamental problem—that of Anglo-American economic relations. This, I think, really goes to the root of the problem. There is to-day no form of effective economic co-operation between this country and the United States. Nothing will now prevent a serious depression in the world except such co-operation. A trade agreement alone, the reduction of a few tariffs on both sides, will be useless without some fundamental agreement upon the deeper economic issues. As a matter of fact, I think it might be dangerous, because either the United States or ourselves, by pursuing a different line of economic policy with regard to currency or prices, could cut through any tariff arrangements that were made. A mere tariff agreement, with nothing more serious underlying it would be in some respects dangerous, and many of us would oppose it.
  What I would like to see—and I think it is extraordinary that it has not happened—is a visit to Washington by a responsible Minister of the Government. There has not been such a visit since Lord Runciman went, and not very much transpired from that visit. It should be a visit to find out what the real economic intentions of the Federal Government of the United States are; and whether it would not be possible for us to come to an agreement as to the methods which

  1235
  we should together employ to restore confidence, to raise prices, and to make constructive use of the vast amount of gold that we both possess, and that is at present lying useless in the vaults of the Federal Reserve Bank and the Bank of England. Why should that great wealth be there unused while men are being turned out of employment by the hundred of thousands in the United States and by the thousand in this country? Why should there be poverty and distress, in these circumstances? If there is effective co-operation between the two countries and if we use that gold as a basis of credit in an effort to restore confidence and to stop deflation, we can do much to restore the economic position. For the time being, the confidence of the investor in the democratic countries, particularly in the United States and this country, has been destroyed. It has to be restored before we can expect any revival of prosperity and before we can get out of the economic and financial crisis in which we find ourselves.
  Fine sentiments on foreign affairs will not carry us very far in this connection. The greatest disservice to the cause of peace and liberty that can be done in the world to-day is to undermine, at this critical juncture, the economic system of the two great democracies, the United States and the British Empire. Whether we like it or not, we are very much linked together. The United States are the marginal consumers of commodities, and if they are out of the market prices fall all over the world, the purchasing power in our markets and throughout the Empire is reduced, and men are thrown out of employment both here and in the Dominions, the Colonies and the United States. Here is the greatest chance of saving the world from war and restoring prosperity to the democratic peoples. I beg the Government seriously to consider the possibility of establishing that effective economic co-operation between Washington and London which has been so tragically absent during the last five years.
  4.50 p.m.
  Mr. Dingle Foot: I do not invariably agree with all that is said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), but we ought to be grateful to him for having initiated a
  1236
  most important and valuable discussion. In our view, it was high time that the House should once more turn its attention to the economic outlook of this country and the problems of employment and unemployment. It was exceedingly interesting to anyone on this side who has heard the Debates of the last 12 months or so to hear the speech of the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby). He admitted that there was a depression. I gather it was a depression which stopped short of Temple Bar, but, nevertheless, there was a depression. Only last summer the state of employment and trade was regarded by hon. Members opposite with almost undiluted satisfaction. If anyone ventured so much as to hint from this side that there might be a recession or a slump in future, he was almost regarded as if he had been guilty of a form of blasphemy. I took the trouble before coming to this Debate to look up what was said in the Debate on the Address in October last year. This is what was said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer:
  "I think, therefore, the fair view is undoubtedly, as I had occasion to say in the City some time ago, and as the Prime Minister said in a speech in the country, that there is no ground whatever in the immediate situation for asserting that there are palpable indications that our trade is approaching a decline."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1937; col. 26, Vol. 328.]
  That was his considered view stated more than once in October. Since September last year there has been an increase in unemployment figures of over 471,000. Comparing the figures for February with those of February, 1937, there is an increase of 238,000. The percentage now for the whole country is 12.8, which represents an increase of 1.5 since this time last year. The ominous thing is that this should be happening at the time when we are so greatly increasing our expenditure on armaments. One would naturally expect that with this rapidly increasing expenditure taking effect there would be some increase in employment and some further fall in the unemployment figures, and that, even if there were a recession, it would be to some extent masked by the rearmament programme. We have, in spite of that programme, this substantial increase in the figures during the last five months. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield did what most of us do in Debates

  1237
  of this kind, and fortified himself with the opinions of eminent economists. I would like to give a quotation from a recent speech of one of the younger economists, Mr. R. F. Harrod, whose opinions will, I am sure, commend themselves to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour perhaps more than to the Minister. Speaking in January, he said:
  "What of the future? Most economists agree that a bad slump will recur, though it is by no means certain that the present slump will be severe or long-lived. But we should be prepared for one comparable to that of 1929–31 to recur, if not now, then later. The view that the last slump was caused by the Great War appears to be untenable. The slump attributable to the War was that which occurred in 1920–22. In the meanwhile, the production both of consumable goods and capital equipment had gone rapidly ahead throughout the world. The losses of the War were made good many times over. The world was in no sense living beyond its means, since ample capital provision was being made. Great Britain had certain special difficulties. But the slump was world-wide and world causes must be sought. The increasing severity of the slump may be accounted for by the economic structure of our society itself, the growing proportion of consumption that can readily be curtailed and the growing proportion of saving and investment, sources from which it is probable that the cycle emanates."
  Last year in the Debate on the Address my hon. Friends and I put down an Amendment in which we drew attention to the question which has been raised this afternoon. We called for an examination and preparation of definite plans for employing our people on the construction of works of national importance and the utilisation of national resources which are at present neglected. After speeches on that subject had been delivered by some of my hon. Friends, we had an interesting reply from the President of the Board of Trade. I would like to remind the House of what he said:
  "As has been stated by the Prime Minister and by the Chanceller of the Exchequer, it is a matter which the Government naturally have in mind to which they are giving the closest and most continuous attention, because we too are aware of the difficulty of 'timing' the long preliminaries which have to precede the inception of any work of this kind, and, therefore, the loss of any really effective results at the time when those works are most wanted."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd November, 1937; col. 785, Vol. 328.]
  That is what the President of the Board of Trade had to say in November, and I hope that when the Minister of Labour speaks to-day he will tell us precisely
  1238
  what has been done in pursuance of that undertaking. What are the Government doing in order to prepare plans for a possible slump? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield quoted the example of Sweden. We know that in Sweden the Government have drawn up a detailed programme of public works which can be put into effect if a slump threatens at any time during the next 10 years. Having worked out the maximum expenditure which is contemplated, they are prepared to spend, if necessary, £143,000,000. I represent a Scottish constituency, and in population Sweden is not much larger than Scotland. I wish I could believe that under our present regime, if there were a severe slump, we could get in Scotland national development on anything like a comparable scale. I hope the Minister will tell us what kind of plans the Government are preparing. There is one project which is of particular interest to those of us who sit for the east of Scotland. That is the project, which has frequently been mentioned in the House, for building road bridges over the Forth and the Tay. They are not matters of just local interest, but matters of national interest to Scotland. Are the Government considering any schemes of that kind in any plans they may be preparing?
  The hon. Member for East Aberdeen spoke of the disquieting news which came from the industrial districts. It must be in the minds of a good many Members on this side of the House what, if there is to be a recession in trade, will be the effect in those areas which, even at the present time, have very high unemployment figures? Even last year, when we were at the height of the so-called boom, we know that the recovery was unequally spread over the country. That disparity remains. Last month the percentage of unemployment for England was 11.9. In Greater London it fell as low as 8.6, and in Birmingham as low as 7. In Scotland it was 17, and Wales 23.8. It has been clear for a long time that the normal movement of industry is calculated to increase rather than to mitigate that difference between different parts of the country. To give an example, in the four years 1932–35 in Scotland there were 74 new factories opened and 102 were closed. Even in 1936, the latest year for which I have figures, there were only 26 new factories open out of a total for Great

  1239
  Britain of 551, and there were 14 closed. It is true that since then a trading estate has been set up at North Hillington, about which I shall say a word later but it is clear that we cannot expect the normal movements of industry to redress the balance between the old industrial districts and the new.
  The only legislative contribution by the Government to meet that situation is contained in the Special Areas Acts, and as the Minister of Labour is present I want to say a word about them. On the face of it, at any rate, those Acts represent only a temporary policy, because the Act of 1937 is due to expire on 31st March, 1939. I hope that the Government will soon make some announcement of their intentions with regard to those Acts. It may be too much to ask for an announcement this afternoon, but I hope it will be made soon. Is it the intention of the Minister of Labour to use his powers under Section 7 of the Act of 1934 simply to transfer certain functions of the Commissioners to the Unemployment Assistance Board and various Government Departments, or is it proposed to continue that Act when it expires in March of next year? If it is proposed to continue those Acts will they be continued as they stand, or continued with some extensions?
  The uncertainty among people in places concerned is interfering a good deal with the smooth working of those Measures. For example, there is in Scotland a certain form of planning authority known as the Scottish Economic Advisory Committee, which has been doing a great deal of work—I think it could do more with larger resources—in endeavouring to plan the economic future of Scotland. That committee depends for its funds very largely, not wholly, upon a grant from the Commissioner for Special Areas in Scotland. If the Act expires on 31st March next year and the funds are not made up from some other source, it will mean that the work of that committee will at once come to a standstill, and it is an obvious handicap upon any organisation not to know what its future will be after 31st March next year. Then there are a number of areas which are considering making applications, or which have made applications, under Sections 5 and 6 of the Act of 1937. Those are the areas which are not in the Schedule of Special Areas, but in which certain
  1240
  conditions of depression apply and which are able to make applications for the assistance which is given by those Sections. It is rather a handicap upon areas which are considering making application not to know what the future of the Act is to be. There may, for instance, be a site company and they cannot know what assistance can be expected after 31st March next year. Therefore, I do hope an announcement on the subject will not be long delayed.
  Regarding the operation of the Acts themselves, I recollect the Debates when the original Act was introduced in 1934, and the principal criticism made at the time by the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith) and a number of us in this part of the House, was that the Special Areas had been selected on an entirely arbitrary principle. They were simply areas which happened to have been visited by the four Commissioners sent out in the Autumn of 1934, and there was no machinery in the Act for bringing in other areas, even though more depressed. In my own constituency the unemployment figure at the moment is now 23.2 per cent., an increase of 2.2 since this time last year. Looking at the level of unemployment in the Highland Counties, we find that in Argyllshire it is 26.1; Banff, 39; Buckie, 43.9; Caithness and Sutherland, 39; and in the town of Wick, 39.2. In Wales we find Anglesey with a figure of 35.8 and Cardigan with 31. Compare those figures with the figures in some of the Special Areas which do receive very great assistance, which we do not grudge, under these Acts. In Lanarkshire the percentage is 18.2, Motherwell, 18.9; Renfrewshire, 15.4; Dumbarton, 13.2; Ardrossan and Irvine, which are part of the Special Areas, 12.6 and 15.2; in West Lothian there is Bathgate, with 9.6. I am not seeking to minimise the seriousness of these figures, but it is clear that there are a number of areas which up to now have received no assistance under the Special Areas Acts although a good deal worse off from the point of view of unemployment than the scheduled Special Areas themselves.
  Let me illustrate the sort of thing that happens as a result of this arbitrary selection of a few areas. As I have said, we have a trading estate in Scotland, and it has produced admirable results

  1241
  in its immediate neighbourhood, but we cannot overlook the fact that it does act as a sort of pool into which all the fresh enterprise in the region tends to flow. I have mentioned the unemployment figures in my own constituency, and shown that they are substantially higher than those in some of the scheduled Special Areas in Scotland, and I have in my hand a letter which was sent a short time ago on behalf of the Commissioner for the Special Areas in Scotland to the president of the Business Club in Dundee. It is a letter appealing to him to bring to the notice of the members of his club a booklet which had been prepared advertising the attractions for new industries to go to the scheduled Special Areas. The object was to get him to persuade his members, if they were contemplating setting up new factories or workshops, to do so in the Special Areas.
  No one in my constituency grudges anything that is done for the Special Areas, because it is realised how great their needs have been and are, but the Minister can realise the feelings of the recipients of that communication in an area which is worse off than the Special Areas, which are receiving this particular form of assistance. I have laboured that point because I feel it is important to point out how absurd and illogical is the geographical demarcation of the Special Areas. When the times comes I hope the House will be asked not only to continue those Acts but to extend them considerably. I hope that either to-day or in the near future we shall have an announcement from the Government as to what is to be the future of their Special Areas legislation, and what they are doing now to prepare plans for a slump should it come.
  5.10 p.m.
  Mr. Hayday: There are one or two points which I desire to bring to the notice of the Minister but before going into details I should like to point out that it is the international view that economic and social conditions throughout the world can either make or mar the world situation, and that the problem of unemployment might not have been so severe in the world had the British Government played a more definite part in appeasing the social and economic conditions of the peoples of the world.
  1242
  When the desire was expressed for international agreement in social and industrial matters the British Government should have taken the lead rather than bring up the rear, should have been more constructive and less critical of other people's efforts, should have had more faith in their own strength and been less ready to express doubts of the honesty of other nations. The calamitous state of affairs in the world to-day, particularly in the Far East, would not have developed had the social and economic proposals put forward at Geneva received a larger measure of support from the British representatives there.
  One proposal in connection with which the British Government could have done much to counter the possibilities of trade depression is the 40-hour week, but instead of taking the lead in this matter Great Britain once again played the part of the sceptic, and as a result of that scepticism other nations have ceased to place the same value upon the importance of an international reduction of the hours of labour. The British attitude up to the present has been, "How could we agree to an international convention to reduce the hours of labour when we know that other nations would decline to carry it out, because we should be laying our own industrialists open to unfair competition which would oust them from world markets?" We ought not to entertain that suspicion. It is well known that India, China and Japan were quite willing to go some way, although not making the approach so steeply, toward the 40-hour week. It was known that France was ready and willing, and indeed, France, after a practical application of the 40-hour week, now finds herself handicapped by reason of the fact that Great Britain stands aside. The subject is to come up again at the June Conference in Geneva, and I hope that the policy of our Government will then undergo a change. They might throw their weight whole-heartedly with such nations as the United States and France, and with any other country that desired to bring about social and economic appeasement in the lot of the workers of the world. If we could do that we should destroy much of the incentive to keen competition in world markets which brings about such a distrustful and doubting atmosphere and leads to much more serious troubles than

  1243
  those which confront the country, although they certainly give us cause for considerable anxiety.
  I hope that the Minister will think over two or three points which I now desire to put. While we are accustomed to speak in terms of the general economic situation and of fear for the future, we ought to examine deeply the personnel of the 1,800,000 persons who are unfortunately denied the right of employment to-day. I feel very sore at heart when I am told by the managers of Employment Exchanges that their great problem is the middle-aged and elderly workmen who are signing on, and how difficult it is to place them. They tell me how eager is the desire of employers for young men and how the employers complain at times of a shortage of boy and girl labour in certain areas at a time when there is what I believe to be an ever-growing percentage unemployed of the best material that any nation ever produced. They are men who years ago bore the brunt of heavy manual labour and ran many risks during the War, but now they seem to be easily forgotten. They are men who as fathers have been responsible for bringing to the nation its present manhood and womanhood, but to-day they find themselves being driven more rapidly than ever before into a state of hopelessness. They have no hope and no outlook, except that of being the cheap butt for the cynical people who are so fond of talking about the idle, lazy unemployed men who think only of crawling round to the Exchange and of lazing on the street corner. They are the best workers that this country ever produced and are of greater value to the nation than a good many people who are making fortunes now as a result of the boom in munitions of war. They are men upon whom we have depended, but men whom we now discard.
  Nobody desires to see that percentage increased or that state of depreciation made worse, but it is a fact that many men who have been unemployed for five or six years and are now about 55 years of age, may not be capable of being absorbed into their old employment. I well remember when I interviewed employers who had to close down for so long that their workers, who had remained out of employment, could not take up their former heavy responsibilities
  1244
  when their industry was ready to reabsorb them. They were unable to perform the heavy tasks, which had to be arranged on a graduated scale, a little extra each week, until they reached their maximum. Those employers also advanced money to the men in order that they might get food and to ease all their mental worries so that they might rehabilitate themselves. Some men on the employment market are never likely to be re-absorbed. Is that problem, in the Minister's opinion, becoming more serious as time goes on? I ask the Minister to inquire to what extent employers who can afford cheap labour might be encouraged to take these men in at the full rate of wages for the industry.
  We need give but a few minutes to thinking on this subject to feel that anything that could be done would be welcome. Hardly a Member of this House has not been approached by men who looked nearer 70 than 55 or 60. They begged their Member to go to the Employment Exchange or to interview employers in order to get them a watchman's job, or any kind of work. They are fearful that they will drift and get beyond recovery. It is not a very nice thing to have such men in households where there are virile youngsters who find themselves called upon to sacrifice their future in order to help parents whom they love.
  A further point I wish to raise concerns the supplementation of benefit under Part II, to men who are signing on at Employment Exchanges and drawing benefit under Part I of the Act. When this Measure was discussed in 1934 the answer was given from the Government Front Bench that men drawing benefits under Part I, could, in certain circumstances, receive supplementary benefit under Part II. Recently, there has been a number of cases in which men have made application for supplementary benefit and have been refused because the amount of the difference upon the ascertained basis had been regarded as too small for payment to be arranged. I have already called the attention of the Minister to one case. I propose to ask him whether he has facilities for obtaining information whether the cases are confined to Nottingham or are general throughout the country, and to what extent, he, as the head of the Ministry of Labour, has control over these ascertainments of payment. I would further ask

  1245
  whether he can say what amount has been denied in bulk to these applicants over the period of a year, and has therefore been conserved to the Ministry under the Unemployment Assistance Board.
  I have particulars of a case in point. The man had made his application, which was quite in order, and the amount of the difference was 1s. 1d. He was told that the ascertainment meant that his supplementation would be 1s. 1d. per week, but that the amount was too small for arrangements to be made to pay it. He has a wife and two children, and would therefore draw 32s. a week. Counting his rent, and other things, the ascertainment, under the Unemployment Assistance Board's method, was 33s. 1d.; but the odd 1s. 1d. was too small for them to arrange to pay it. Does any hon. Member realise what it means to have only 32s. to spend upon four persons, under present conditions of high rental, and so on, and what it means to be told that 1s. 1d. is of no account? "This 1s. 1d. is too small; we cannot arrange to make that payment." Last week the same man made application for employment, and he required 1s. 10d. for his fare. He went to the Employment Exchange and asked for an advance. He was given an advance of 2s. When he got to the place he was told that he was not the type of man required. They wanted a charge hand and not an ordinary baker. He pointed out what his fare had been, and the man he saw gave him 1s. 6d. When he got back, the Employment Exchange people stopped from his money the full 2s. and the man was therefore at a loss of 4d. Instead of saying that he ought not to be 4d. short the Employment Exchange people added insult to injury by saying that the 1s. 1d. was too small an amount for them to arrange to pay. Even though he was seeking employment he had to be penalised to the extent of a further 4d. in respect of his fare. I believe that this is not an isolated case but that it is general and I would like the Minister to look into the matter. I am sure that the House has not heard the last of it.
  Another point is the extent to which foreign labour coming into the country on permit displaces our own labour and adds to the difficulties of the Employment Exchanges. There was a case in Nottingham in which a firm was involved in a dispute last October. The firm had
  1246
  in its employment two foreigners, working on permit. The dispute was settled after three days, but the employer apparently broke his pledge, which I suppose he gave either to the trade union officials or to the Ministry of Labour, and a further dispute broke out again in November. It is still running. One of the permits expired on 28th February and the other expired in April. I am not raising this instance in any attitude of antagonism to the nationalities of the men. The fact remains that this employer, who was in dispute with his own workpeople, was supplied with two men from outside the country while there were members of the same trade union available to do the class of work in which the men on permit are supposed to be specialists. Non-union and cheap labour has been introduced in the place of the men who are in dispute and it is being taught by the men who are over here on permit.
  The Minister of Labour knows about this case because I have asked him questions and have made representations to him, but I have not yet had a reply. I asked on 24th February whether the permits ought to be renewed until the Department had reviewed the situation. I am still short of the information. I do not know whether the permits have been renewed. If they have, I say that it is wrong that you should play into the hands of a particularly bad type of employer by giving him facilities wherewith to beat down workers who are trying to maintain established conditions of employment. Labour is available and is signing on at the employment exchanges, but workers of other nationalities are allowed to come into the country on permit. I have no prejudice on account of the nationality of these people, but, to put it mildly, it is not quite right for the Minister of Labour to enable British labour to be replaced by granting permits if the same type of labour is available here; and, further, I think there ought to be an undertaking, if foreigners have to be allowed to come to this country because the type of labour required is not available here, that they will not be used as an instrument to keep down the wages and conditions of the nationals of this country.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. Amery: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) into the somewhat detailed

  1247
  issues he has raised in connection with public assistance, except on one point. He, and all of us, must be well aware that, under present conditions of Government payments, whether of unemployment benefit or public assistance, the unskilled low-paid worker with a large family is often worse off when he is in employment than when he is out of work. From a national point of view that must be a fundamentally unsatisfactory situation, and I would very earnestly ask my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour—
  Mr. Stephen: What is the right hon. Gentleman's authority for that statement? Is he not aware that no person can receive in unemployment assistance a greater amount than he would receive if he was in employment?
  Mr. Amery: I am afraid I must say that I have come across more than one case in my own constituency where it was to the man's interest to be out of employment. A man receiving some 30s. odd a week would get a great deal more if he has seven or eight children—
  Mr. Stephen: It is quite against the Act of Parliament. It is definitely laid down that the applicant cannot receive more in assistance, or as much, as he would get when he is in employment, and I think it is altogether wrong for the right hon. Gentleman to come here and make a definite statement which is quite contrary to the facts.
  Mr. Amery: Whatever the law may be, my experience is that there are men whose normal claim under unemployment assistance is, in virtue of their families, substantially greater than they are getting as unskilled labourers, and I suggest that the country ought to face the problem of the man with a large family, and the need, through industry in one form or another—I cannot, of course, discuss the legislative possibilities to-day—to do what is already done in other countries, and what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War has recently done with regard to the married soldier, that is to say, to make provision through industry for families, and to see to it that the children in a large family do not suffer from the point of view of nourishment and opportunities for a healthy life as they do to-day. The problem is one which has been very fully
  1248
  discussed in a recent book by Mr. Seebohm Rowntree, and the conclusion to which he has come is that the only way of ensuring an adequate standard of nutrition for the children in large families in this country is to provide something in the nature of a family allowance in industry. I am not quarrelling from any point of view with the law as it stands, or making any inaccurate statement.
  Coming to the much bigger point raised by the hon. Member for West Nottingham, with regard to the competition with our own workers which arises from the entry of foreign labour under permit, that raises a very big issue, on a far larger scale than the two or three workers to whom the hon. Member referred. Let me remind the House that there are two forms of permit under which foreign labour enters this country. One is the permit given by the Ministry of Labour, and the other is the permit given by the Import Duties Advisory Committee; and undoubtedly one of the most serious problems with which we are confronted to-day, at a time when unemployment is not diminishing as it should, is the continuous increase in the importation of foreign labour into this country in the form of finished manufactured goods. Last year we imported a total of something like £175,000,000 worth of fully manufactured goods into this country, excluding our imports of base metals, oils and other articles which belong more truly to the category of raw or semi-raw materials. That import of £175,000,000 worth of fully finished manufactures represents in direct or indirect labour, something like the work of 600,000 persons. Naturally, under any conditions, we should wish to import a certain amount of foreign manufactures; but, judging our need for imports of special manufactures of one type or another by the parallel of other countries, I venture to suggest that a figure of £75,000,000 worth of fully manufactured imports is probably quite as large as is necessary or consistent with the maximum development of our production and the maximum of employment in this country. In other words, these imports could very well be cut down by £100,000,000, giving, directly or indirectly, employment to some 400,000 persons, and making a very substantial contribution to our whole employment problem, as well as to our whole

  1249
  revenue problem; and that could be done without any prejudice to the export trade of this country.
  Mr. Shinwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest the complete exclusion of £75,000,000 worth of manufactured goods, or does he suggest that it should be done by a tariff?
  Mr. Amery: I am suggesting that our tariff should be so increased as to reduce this unnecessary importation by some £100,000,000, to about £75,000,000. I want to raise this matter from another point of view, apart from the point of view of employment, namely, its effect upon the general economic situation in this country. It may be the case that we are in for a general world slump. Personally I am not convinced that the situation is such as to be in any sense parallel either to the situation in 1920 or to the very peculiar situation which arose in 1930. But the point to which I desire to draw the attention of the House is that in 1931 we were brought into dire straits by the combination and conjuncture of certain factors domestic to ourselves with a situation of general world depression. Of those factors, the two most important were, first, the effect on public confidence of the failure of the Government as a government to pay its way; and, secondly, and far more important in my opinion, the fact that as a nation we were not paying our way.
  On our total balance of payments, including not only the balance of visible trade, but allowing for our shipping and insurance earnings and interest on foreign investments, we were, in the year 1931, down to the extent of having an adverse balance of £104,000,000 on the year, as against a favourable balance of practically the same amount, namely, £103,000,000, in 1929. It was that failure of the country to pay its way that was responsible for the greater part of the crisis of 1931. It was remedied, in the first instance, by the application of measures which acted on the excess of our imports and reduced it, so that in the following year the adverse balance was reduced to £51,000,000, and in 1933 to a level balance. Since then we have not paid our way fully. In 1934 we had an adverse balance of £7,000,000; in 1935 we had a small favourable balance of £32,000,000, in 1936 an adverse balance
  1250
  of £18,000,000, and in 1937 an adverse balance of £52,000,000; and, judging by the figures for the opening months of 1938, the adverse balance of the year is likely to be as large as it was in 1931.
  That is a very serious situation, due in a large measure to the fact that our industries are not protected as they were originally intended to be protected in 1932. Our imports are not reduced as they were reduced in the earlier years of the tariff, because in those years additional protection was afforded by the recent depreciation of sterling in relation to other world currencies. Since then, all these other currencies have settled down to the level of sterling, and in many cases far below it. The dollar, the Japanese yen and the franc have all depreciated, and in other ways that temporary advantage which we enjoyed through the fall of sterling from gold has disappeared. Therefore, our tariff is no longer adequate to give the protection, either to our industries or to our trade balance, that it gave when it was originally imposed. That is a very serious matter in times of peace, but it may be infinitely more serious if, which Heaven forbid, we have to face the contingency of war. In 1914 we entered upon the Great War with a favourable balance of payments of about £181,000,000, representing, at present prices, considerably over £250,000,000; we had something like £3,000,000,000 worth of good saleable securities abroad upon which we could draw; our shipping was very nearly 50 per cent. of the world's tonnage; and yet, in spite of all this, we were pretty hard put to it to get through before the end of the War.
  To-day, if we were at war, our shipping, which is one of the chief sources of our invisible exports, would all be required from the very first for purposes of defence and communications, and would have very little opportunity of earning money for us by trade with foreign countries. On the contrary, we should have to draw very largely upon the help of foreign shipping. Our saleable securities are far less in total value than was the case then. Does anyone suggest that we shall be able to borrow again from the United States as we were able to borrow in the late War? Add to that the fact that our export trade will inevitably go down, and that the cost of our

  1251
  imports will rise very seriously, so that we might in a very few months be in a position in which we could not secure either raw materials for our munitions or food supplies, and we should be brought literally to a standstill and to national bankruptcy. Surely, in these conditions, it is worth while trying to restore a better balance of trade and have a better reserve in hand than we enjoy at this moment.
  The question will naturally be asked, How are we to do that? If we could increase our export trade, that would be one very desirable method; but in the world to-day, with restrictions being increased in every direction, the desire of other countries for self-sufficiency, and the additional difficulty created by our higher standard of living and higher cost of production, it is really excessive optimism to think that there is much hope of a general increase in our exports to the world at large.
  One direction in which we can hope for a really substantial increase of exports is in those markets where our exports enjoy preference against foreign competition. The Empire markets already take more than half of our manufactured exports, and they are bound to take an ever-increasing share, both because they are readier to buy from us and because other countries are less ready to buy from us. But we certainly cannot hope for an immediate increase. We have to build up their strength and population, in order to help them to build up our export trade. That must be a matter of years. There was a time when we were able to foster our export trade by lending money abroad. Our loans went out largely in the shape of British manufactures, and the interest on them came back, partly in the shape of imports, but also in the dividend returned which enabled us to pay for them. That has largely passed away. A British loan to-day does not necessarily mean British goods going out to build the railways for which the loan was made. Moreover, as we have sometimes experienced in recent years, a loan may not be repaid and such goods as have gone out may become a dead loss. In those circumstances, the obvious step is to reduce our adverse balance of imports, from the balance of trade point of view as well as from the point of view of national employment.
  1252
  It seems to me that we have reached a critical situation, in which it is the duty of the Government to see that the balance of trade is corrected. This is not a matter which can be left to the unfettered discretion of the Import Duties Advisory Committee. The duty of that committee is to prevent lobbying in this House in favour of one industry or another, and to take a strictly impartial view of the claims of different industries. But the general nature of our tariff system, the general object it serves, including defence considerations, is a matter which only the Government can decide and on which the Government are surely entitled to make representations to the Import Duties Advisory Committee or suggest, in default of those representations, that it should take the initiative by legislation. The Government do not hesitate to override the views of the committee when, in the course of treaty negotiations, they alter the findings to which the committee has come and reduce a duty. In the same way, it should be the task of the Government to see that, whether from the point of view of national employment or from the point of view of the balance of trade, or of our general economic security in peace, and still more in war, our tariff position should be strengthened. At any rate, if the Government come to a conclusion that that position should be strengthened, their hands should be free to do so.
  That brings me to a matter which may affect the future of employment and the balance of trade in this country: the question of a treaty of trade with the United States. Such a treaty is in itself a most desirable thing. It is desirable that our trade relations with a great country like the United States should be stable, and should be based on a situation known for some years beforehand. There is a very strong case for making a treaty, in order to rectify the present unsatisfactory balance of trade between us and the United States. On an average, during the last three years, we have bought from the United States £62,000,000 each year more than they have bought from us—making a total of £186,000,000 altogether. I may be told that they have bought a great deal more from other parts of the Empire. That may be so. I know that they buy a great deal of rubber and tin from Singapore, including a considerable amount from Dutch territories which

  1253
  figure in the list as British produce. But that is by no means comparable to the effect on the economic strength of this country of a corresponding export from this country; and, in any case, that is a form of trade which will be carried on by the United States in any case. They are not going to buy less rubber or tin from Malaya because we are not prepared to give greater concessions to them in our market in the United Kingdom.
  There is room for negotiation if we are determined that the basis should be a reduction of the adverse balance. We are buying, for instance, 10 times as much machinery from the United States as they are from us. There is great room for rectification there. That is a policy that we pursued in negotiations with Denmark and other countries. We insisted on a reduction of our adverse balance both by reducing our imports from Denmark and stipulating that there should be a greater quantity of British exports to Denmark. What I am afraid of is, that these negotiations are being pursued, not with the idea of definitely reducing the adverse balance, but simply with the idea of increasing the volume of trade by increasing our exports to the United States and correspondingly increasing imports here from the United States, possibly at the expense of Empire products, which provide the most hopeful prospect of an expansion of British export trade.
  If we reduce duties which are already too low in this country, or commit the mistake of pledging ourselves not to vary existing duties, we expose ourselves to very great risks—not so much from the United States themselves, but because of the effect of the Most-Favoured Nation Clause upon the whole situation. If the United States make reductions in their duties to us, it does not follow in the least that we shall be the beneficiaries. It may well be that cheaper Japanese or Belgian goods or the, in effect, subsidised goods from totalitarian countries will displace us, and that we shall receive little benefit. On the other hand, it may be that the reductions here will be shared, not merely by the United States, but in a great measure by a number of others, and that our adverse balance will be still further increased.
  I feel that we are confronted with a situation of real gravity, and it would be disastrous if, just from a general desire to have some sort of agreement, a good-
  1254
  will agreement, we should tie our hands behind our backs at a time when we do not know what the developments in international trade may be. One of the difficulties of to-day is that when you get a country like Russia, Italy or Germany, where the whole of industry is increasingly state-controlled, where the whole monetary system is under state control, exports bear no relation to the cost of production and may be subsidised to whatever extent the Government concerned feel desirable for their own purposes. In view of a situation which is becoming increasingly formidable, it would be a great mistake to tie our hands for a number of years, instead of retaining the flexibility of our tariff system. I feel that in this matter a word of warning is not out of place. I would say to my hon. Friend who is representing the Board of Trade, that the attitude of his Department is not altogether encouraging in this matter.
  We are faced with the fact that, whereas every concession we ask from American industry is laid before American industry itself, in order that they may have every opportunity to put in their objections and state their views, our manufacturers are given no opportunity of being consulted on the reductions which America has asked for. Our Dominion producers are in a position to know because, naturally, we consult the Dominion Governments, and they, naturally and properly, consult their producers. Our producers, whether agricultural or industrial, are refused the right to know what is asked, but they are told to open their mouths, shut their eyes and hope for the best. That is not treating British industry fairly, and I know that the feeling in many quarters of British industry is very strong indeed. It is felt that they are having their hands tied behind them. It is a little late in the day, but I most earnestly appeal to my hon. Friend not to forget the uncertainties and dangers of the trade situation in the years that lie ahead, and not to do anything either to cripple the productive energies of this country at the present time or to tie our hands from using our tariffs in a more flexible manner.
  5.59 p.m.
  Mr. Lansbury: I do not intend to follow the right hon. Gentleman all through his speech, but I propose to say something

  1255
  about it. I am glad that the representative of the Board of Trade is here. As I have continually tried to get the Government to say something on the international economic question—I suppose the subject has been squeezed out because of the interest of hon. Members in either preventing war or preparing for war—I thought it best to try to get it in tonight, and I hope the hon. Member when he comes to reply, will be able to tell us something satisfactory. I am sorry that his chief is not able to be present, but we cannot help that. I would like, in passing, to call attention to the state of the House this evening, compared with the sort of House we have when foreign affairs are discussed. We are discussing to-night only the condition of the people of Great Britain, in whom, apparently, the bulk of hon. Members are not interested. I should have thought that that would have been the overwhelming question for the consideration of the House of Commons at this time of day. It is the condition of people not only here, but abroad which creates the war mentality and brings about war.
  I want to deal with the question of unemployment pay, which was raised by the right hon. Gentleman. We shall never settle the question of unemployment until we pay a man as much when he is out of work as when he is in work. I have always been heterodox in regard to the theory that people should live on less when they are sick or out of work. It is a most extraordinary doctrine that a man's wife and children should be maintained on perhaps a third or even more than a third of his ordinary earnings for long periods. Even a week of unemployment for many men means throwing their wives back into debt for a long time. How the thousands of people in my division are able to keep themselves afloat even under the better conditions that prevail to-day passes my comprehension. When I heard the right hon. Gentleman rather complaining about the amount that a man gets—
  Mr. Amery: No, that was the very opposite of what I wanted to say. I was pointing out that a man in regular work ought to get something additional in respect of his wife and children, so that when he was in work the family was better off than when he was unemployed. I was not complaining of what they get
  1256
  when unemployed. That is the last thing I would wish to do.
  Mr. Lansbury: The right hon. Gentleman was perhaps a little unfortunate in the manner in which he expressed himself. I would not for the world attempt to misrepresent anything that he said, but that was what I thought was the point of view he was taking, because there is a sort of theory abroad that the unemployed are getting too much. There are many people writing and talking in that way. I am not one of those who think that it is a good thing that people should be unemployed; I think it is rather a bad thing. I hope that whenever the question is taken properly in hand, we shall deal with those who live at his end of the town as well as those who live at my end of the town. The unemployed are of two classes—those who have money in their pockets and those who have no money. Both are just as demoralised through unemployment. Nothing that the right hon. Gentleman or anyone else can say will ever convince me that the right standard to set for people who are out of work, especially when they have been out of work for a long time, is that they should receive less than when they are at work. Even with conditions as they are to-day the unemployed, their children and their womenfolk are grossly underfed, and neither I nor anybody else who has had anything to do with the bringing up of a family could agree to that sort of thing.
  It is nonsense to talk about this being a boom period when there are 1,800,000 out of employment and a very large number who are never accounted for. As my hon. Friend the Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) pointed out, there is no hope or chance for many of the people who are the victims of this social disease, the people over 45. The hopelessness of meeting such men and women is, for me anyhow, very painful indeed. We meet them in the street and at their homes, and apparently very few people care anything about them at all.
  There is also the problem of the young people. I tried to say something about this matter when we were dealing with the Supplementary Estimate for the Home Office the other day, and I tried to show the effect of unemployment on young people. I know that everybody in this House feels strongly about it, but there is no effective notice taken of it. We train them for a little while and shove

  1257
  them into a job here or a job there, but that does not settle the problem at all. It is not only a question of boys who go in for manual labour, but of boys who receive a fairly good education and who, when they are through with their examinations, find no place where they are needed at all. I think the problem is insoluble under present conditions, with the system under which our industries are carried on, but I would like the Minister to tell us what is being done, not to deal with them after they have failed, but to prevent them from getting into the hopeless position which forces some organisation to recondition them. The word "recondition" is a horrible word to me. You first of all allow them to drift into a very bad condition, and then you talk about reconditioning them.
  I also intend to say a few words about the older men, but I do not want hon. Members to think that what I am going to say is a remedy. It is a sort of palliative. I have heard of the work being done in Lancashire, but in Monmouthshire I have seen it at first hand. I refer to the scheme which is being carried on by the Eastern Valley Subsistence Production Society under Peter Scott and his Order of Friends. I could not help wondering, as I walked round, what would be the end of this rather fine scheme for palliating the evil conditions under which men are living. Would it go the way of the Hollesley Bay scheme, and by and by all the money and effort be wasted because of the hopelessness with which Government Departments look upon these kinds of schemes? We look at the face of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister and we know exactly what he is thinking. I am not talking so much about what will happen at this particular hour or in another year, but I have in mind the very painful experience of what happened at Hollesley Bay, and it will take a lot to get that out of my mind. When I saw these men I realised that we had given them insufficient to maintain them decently and that some, philanthropic people, with the aid of Government grants, had taken land and formed this society. The men work together and then share what they produce at a cost which is equal to all of them and under equal conditions.
  No one who has seen what has been done would ever say that these men were
  1258
  either unskilled or lazy; no one would ever say that any of them were not really pulling their weight. As I watched them at their meals and at their work, I thought to myself what a fearful waste of human effort was taking place, because there was no organisation in this country so to organise their labour as to make them absolutely independent and self-supporting and make them free of the need of what is called the dole and of having to depend upon the good will and the charitable feelings of rich people. It is one of the most terrible indictments of present-day society that such a thing had to happen. I have nothing but admiration for the men who thought of it and who give their time in helping to carry it out, but why should a number of my fellow-countrymen have to submit to that way of getting a decent living? They cannot live on unemployment pay; everybody agrees that they cannot. These men and their children and their womenfolk are now obtaining a little higher standard of life.
  When I say that there is no boom in trade I am thinking of the sort of trades that operate in East London, where there are large numbers of people on part-time work and large numbers out of work. I know perfectly well that it is due to the same kind of economic causes that have prevailed all my life, and I see no chance either with this Government or with almost any Government of tackling the root problem which faces society to-day. This brings me to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spark-brook (Mr. Amery). He knows that I always listen to him with respect, either privately or publicly, because many years ago he did his level best to convert me to Protection. He has perhaps forgotten the couple of interviews we had with each other. I was not very young—I was older than the right hon. Gentleman—but I was, relatively speaking, rather raw and did not know very much, though probably I knew less than I know now. The right hon. Gentleman has not moved, and I have not moved, but I think that I had a clearer conception of what was wrong with the world then than he had, and I think I have to-day.
  The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to realise that we are living in an entirely different economic world from that which prevailed before the War.

  1259
  We are trying to adapt ourselves to present-day conditions by retaining the old ideas under which we lived, and under which trade and industry were organised. If he will only think of his own speech, in which he pointed out that at the outbreak of the War we were getting £250,000,000 income from what is called invisible exports, he will realise that the world is in such a position that that cannot operate again. Even the Dominions, on whom he is pinning his faith, want to be our competitors in their own markets. They want to manufacture boots, leather, iron and steel goods. They want to make the things which before the War we took it for granted they would get from us. That is a great change. In addition, the South American countries, where many millions of British money have been lent, money which represents millions of pounds worth of labour on the part of workers of this country, are to-day, in many cases, not able to pay interest or to repay capital, and they are not able to borrow from us any further. They are not in a position to say: "We want to build a railway there" or "We want to put a road here." That has all gone by, because of the conditions that are prevailing. If we attempt to take payment from them we shall have to stop taking payment from the Dominions or other countries which owe us money, because payment must come to us in goods.
  A great snowball of debt has been piled up. I am not referring to War debt, but ordinary economic debt, a great snowball of it, and no one knows how to move it. I reminded the House one day that Sir Josiah Stamp once said that what was wanted was an international bankruptcy court, so that the nations could go there and get their debts wiped out in the same way as private firms do. That seems to me to be the only way out, so far as these debts are concerned. Frequently at Question Time in the House questions are asked about one State or another that is in default. They are not in default because they have a double dose of original sin, but because of the stupid system under which industry and exchange are carried on. It has been blind competition and blind investment, without any sort of plan or idea.
  The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook complained about the competition that
  1260
  might come from Russia or from the totalitarian States. I do not know much about the economic condition of the totalitarian States, but one thing seems to be certain, and that is that there is tremendous control from the centre. I suppose it is control in what they consider to be the best interests of their countries. With regard to Russia, the reason why that country is able to produce her goods and to put them on the market if she chooses at a very low price is that she has not to keep a great crowd of people who have lent their money and who require interest to be paid on it. Russia started, as it were, quite fair, without having to put by anything to keep a large idle class, idle in the sense of not contributing anything to the common weal.
  In Russia, Japan, India, or China we are confronted with the fact that British capital has been invested in those countries for the purpose of developing them as competitors with ourselves. I often sit in this House and am struck by the fact that hon. Members complain about competition from those Eastern countries. A few weeks ago there was a complaint about competition from India in regard to jute and other things. Who taught India to compete? The late Lord Brentford put the matter very plainly when he said that we are not in India for the good of the Indian people; we are there to make money; we are there for profit. In the pursuit of profit we appear to be strangling ourselves under this competitive system of living, and as far as I can see there is no way out but a complete revolution in our minds. We must face the situation not from the point of view of blind competition but from the point of view of real co-operation.
  That brings me to a particular point that I wish to put. If I were to put it to-morrow night, in case Mr. Speaker called upon me, I should not get an answer, because the minds of hon. Members will be upon other things, which are not a tithe as important as the matters about which I have been speaking. What are the Government going to do about the Van Zeeland Report? They asked this gentleman nearly a year ago to undertake a mission. He and his colleagues were to go to Europe, and he was to go to America to study the very questions which in an imperfect way I am trying to put. He was asked to study

  1261
  the conditions of world trade and what it is that is preventing the countries of the world from utilising the enormous powers which they possess for the good of each other. M. Van Zeeland has brought forward his report and I am putting my name to a Motion, along with some of my colleagues, asking the Government to do something in relation to that report. Some weeks ago the Prime Minister promised me, and I have been very patient about it, that the subject was being considered by our Government and the French Government. Will anyone be able to tell us how far that consideration has gone and whether there is any likelihood of steps being taken among the various Governments, at any rate those that are not totalitarian, and whether we can start along the road to economic appeasement?
  The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook wants heavier tariffs, and he wants agreement with America, but on his own terms. America wants agreement on her terms. We shall never adjust these conditions until Mr. Cordell Hull can get his mind down to the fact that neither America nor Great Britain can live under the old conditions. They have to come forward and help to build a new economic world. Unless they are prepared to do that, they will quietly fade back into a sort of nationalist life without real enjoyment of the blessings of science and invention, or they will smash themselves in a universal war. To me it is as plain as a pikestaff and I cannot understand why it is not equally plain to other hon. Members.
  We may go to Germany, America, Poland, Czechoslovakia, or any other country, and we shall find that the problem there is mainly if not entirely economic. They are not able, because of the burdens placed upon them, to deal with the poverty problem, which is for them much keener than ours. In its effect and scope it is very similar to our distressed areas. We may also go to Hungary. There is a Motion on the Order Paper about Hungary. It has been on the Order Paper for a month, but nobody bothers about it and nobody will do so until something happens, such as happened in Vienna the other day. I am not saying that the Van Zeeland Report contains everything that is necessary for dealing with the economic conditions of the world, but at least it puts before the world the vital problems that have to be
  1262
  dealt with and it asks that some steps should be taken for dealing with them.
  You are not going to get prosperity in any one country alone or in any two countries alone. Individually, nationally and internationally we are now interdependent one upon another. It is a new attitude of mind that is needed both at home and abroad. We need that even more than ever to-day. The policy of quotas, tariffs, shutting the door, has landed us where we are. When Ministers came back from Ottawa anyone would have thought not simply that we were just entering the promised land but that we were in the promised land. Hon. Members will recollect the scene that night when the present Prime Minister spoke of our being proud that at last we had realised the great policy of the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain. I think the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook made a great speech that night, glorying in the fact that he had lived to see the day when this great thing had happened. We have heard him to-night. I am not saying this to chortle over him, because I have been in the same position from another point of view. I merely direct his attention to the fact that that policy has brought us nowhere. If anything, it has made confusion worse confounded. I remember saying when hon. Members were cheering that we should come back to where we are to-day.
  The world cannot organise in that sort of way. What the world needs and what Great Britain needs is a higher consuming power. Anyone would think that it was a crime to buy goods abroad. The fact is, as Lord Baldwin said, that you must both buy and sell. It is a question of exchange. If we want to avert war and the danger of wholesale destruction we must tackle the question of how to restore the economic life of our own country and of other countries. We shall not restore it by keeping on unemployment pay; we shall not restore it even by such schemes as I have mentioned. We shall restore it only by developing in the freest possible manner the channels of trade in this country, the Dominions, and all the countries of the world. I do not believe that that is impossible. There are men in all countries who take the same view, but they want a lead. If there was a man on the Front Bench opposite or on these benches who could speak to the world authoritatively for our

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  country I believe we could give the world the greatest lead towards economic freedom, which is the basis of all freedom that the world has ever known.
  6.30 p.m.
  Lord Apsley: The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has gained the respect of the whole House because he does not speak on any subject unless he knows the details of it from his own personal experience. His speech not long ago on foreign policy proved that, if any proof was needed, for, indeed, he had been to all the countries of which he spoke, and had seen not only kings and dictators but the humblest persons in the land. He was not taken round by any propagandist agency, and consequently he gave us a speech which was true, unbiased and also very human. When he speaks of the unemployed in his own constituency we can be equally certain that he gives us an unbiased and true account. I think every hon. Member will be in agreement with the last portion of his speech this evening. It is perfectly true that much misery does exist abroad and undoubtedly will continue to exist until the world comes to its senses and pulls down the fatal trade barriers to allow a free intercourse and trade between nations. But is it going to be one man who can persuade them to pull down these barriers, or is it to be one nation who will give the lead? The right hon. Gentleman spoke of Russia. There is no reason why Russia should not adopt a policy of free trade in the world. The reason why Russia is able to keep her people employed, though on a somewhat squalid basis, is not only because she has no national debt, but because Russia is now the second greatest gold exporting country in the world. She has credits at her hand, and need fear no trade competition in the world.
  The only reason why the people in Russia are living such a miserable life is that they are unable to get any of the comforts and necessities which people living under Western civilisation, whether employed or unemployed, look upon as a matter of course. If Russia would make a trade agreement with America and with this country we should have more channels into which to introduce our own trade and she hers. The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) the spokesman for the Liberal party, gave
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  us the kind of speech to which we have been familiar for some time now. For three years the Liberal party have been telling us, with the backing of a certain school of economy which has, I am glad to say, so far been proved to be an inaccurate prophet, that a slump is coming. I would remind the hon. Member that not long ago the Floor of the House was full of papers of a great Liberal petition protesting against the rise in the cost of living. Now that it has fallen several points below 1935 we hear nothing more about that, but they hark back to the slump that is coming. The attitude of the Liberal party reminds me a little of the weather forecasts we sometimes see, "Mainly fair; some rain possible." The hon. Member said that the present trade recession is somewhat analogous to the recession of 1930, and would probably run the same course. He said that the 1930 recession was not due to the War.
  With all respect that is not a fair conclusion to draw. The 1930 recession, as I understand it, was brought about almost entirely by a world shortage of gold following a great demand for commodities. It was bound to lead to a policy of deflation. It is true that the shortage of gold was complicated by the fact that the United States of America, the greatest creditor nation, had an enormous stock of gold which was the direct outcome of the War—great in comparison with anybody else. Even including this, there was a shortage of gold, and the price of gold appreciated considerably. There was a period of depression throughout the world. That brought about its own remedy. The price of gold being high, new sources of gold production were discovered, old sources were re-worked, and gold has been flowing into the coffers of the nations in ever increasing quantities, though still into those of creditor nations.
  In addition to that there was Trotsky's dismissal from power in Russia. He had always acted in close co-operation with those interested in the production of gold, but when Trotsky was dismissed from office, Russia reversed her policy of keeping great goldmines out of production and in a few years became a great producer of gold. Now gold from that source is pouring into the world's coffers in ever increasing quantities. I say that this

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  recession of trade is not due to a shortage of gold but is due to a fear of an abundance of gold, and the possible effects which may occur. It is not easy to try and get a corner in gold in order to keep the price high. You cannot do it any more than you can get a corner in pepper, if there happens to be a hole in the bag, and there happens to be a hole in this bag. Gold must drop in price sooner or later and it will have considerable repercussions on world prices and world trade, and upon employment, disturbing and harmful at first, but when prices have found their new level will probably be beneficial. In my belief it is to the fear that the price of gold will drop, affecting all prices and all trades, that this recession in trade is due.
  I want to say one word to the Minister of Labour. A slogan often used by hon. Members opposite is "Poverty amidst plenty." That seems to apply to the labour situation at the moment. We can see in the Press, and indeed in our own constituencies, that there is a shortage of labour, particularly of skilled labour. We hear frequently of firms who say that they cannot get labour at any cost, yet at the same time there are 1,800,000 people who are out of employment. Perhaps the Minister will touch on this point, and with his expert knowledge will say whether we can or cannot be entirely bound by that figure, because there is undoubtedly an increasing number of men and women who are turned out on short time. No doubt more and more firms are finding it convenient during the slack season to turn off their labour for a short time until the busy season comes on again. That does affect the figure to a considerable extent, and particularly is it the case in winter, now that agricultural labourers are on benefit, for, undoubtedly, farmers are finding it a convenient way of disposing of their labour, instead of using it to clear out ditches and repair fences. There is no doubt that there is an acute demand for labour at the present moment and that skilled men are wanted in greater numbers owing to the armament programme and the ancillary businesses and trades.
  I want to make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman, and it is that men who are of middle age and over, who were perhaps turned off during the last depression, or perhaps through illness
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  lost their jobs, and when recovered, find they have been passed over in favour of younger men should not be forgotten now. There is always a tendency to take younger men and women. It is often thought that older men who have been unemployed for some time will take longer to get back into the saddle again and that it is better to train young men right from the start. I hope steps will be taken to prevent this happening, particularly in the case of ex-service men who frequently see young men and young women going into industry over their heads. They feel they have been left on the shelf, possibly for ever. Is it not possible to increase the excellent schools, the labour institutions—there is a good one in my own constituency—in order to get some of these elderly men, who are steady workmen, into employment again? There are many who say that an older man is a better workman than a young man because his mind is not so often wandering to other things—girls, motor bicycles and greyhounds—and that he concentrates more on his work, and that if he can be got back into industry he is the most reliable man of the lot. The British Legion can help in finding the right man for the right job if the Ministry will co-operate.
  There is one other matter. In my own part of the country the farms are enclosed in stone walls. It is the cheapest form of enclosure, and it used to be the custom of farmers to employ elderly men, pensioners, to go round the walls in fine weather for a small sum picking up the shards and keeping the walls in good condition. For the last 20 or 30 years there has been the idea that it is necessary to pay a man a full agricultural wage if he was employed in work of any sort on a farm. This, I understand, is not the case, and that there are facilities for using old pensioners and old people who are not fit for hard work on the farm and who would prefer to be walking around the fields patching up the stone walls rather than sitting in their gardens smoking a pipe. I understand that there are facilities for employing such old persons, but I am not aware that farmers have realised that they can do so.
  Is it possible for the Employment Exchanges to inform the old men themselves and the farmers that these services can be used in this way? Unless this labour is used I fear that the stone walls will

  1267
  crumble and then the farmer in the end will find that it will cost at least £300 to rebuild one stone wall. I hope that some assistance can be given to these old people and to farmers by the Ministry in the way of putting them into touch with each other.
  6.45 p.m.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I will do my best to reply to those points which mainly affect the problem at home, leaving my right hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade to deal with the wider economic issues which affect not only this country but the whole world. A great many detailed points, and one or two major questions, have been raised by hon. Members who have spoken. My Noble Friend the Member for Central Bristol (Lord Apsley) has referred to the paradox that at a time when there are 1,810,000 unemployed, there is a shortage of labour. That illustrates the difficulty of using the figures produced by the Ministry of Labour as composite figures. They cannot be treated as though all the men and women represented in the number recorded as unemployed at the Employment Exchanges in a given month were interchangeable, as though it were a problem of this figure of 1,810,000 unemployed in February in mass, and as though a plan must cover all of them equally. That is a complete delusion. The apparent paradox that side by side with the large number of unemployed people registered in a given month at the various exchanges there is a considerable number of shortages for certain kinds of craftsmen with a particular kind of skill, does not really point to the necessity for a plan, about which a good deal has been said, but for a real survey of the problem from the angle of the Ministry of Labour in order to bring to light those factors which are passing in their nature and those which are not passing, so that, when consideration is being given to the question of what can be done at a given time, we may really know what is the problem with which we are dealing and whether any solution which may be suggested will meet it.
  The fact is that the workpeople registered at the exchanges in this mass figure are not homogeneous, nor are their problems homogeneous. They are persons of different ages, sexes and
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  capacities, and they are seeking work in different industries and occupations and in different districts. Each district has very different problems, although some districts, such as the coal areas, have similar problems. Some of the people have been unemployed for a very long time and others are passing from one job to another; the latter are registered on the day of the count, but they may be in a job two days, three days or four days, or a month or two months afterwards. In my opinion, when people talk about a plan, they must remember that the first element of successful planning is a breaking up of the problem for the purpose of seeing it in its true proportions. I would like to try to assist the House by making an analysis of the problem as I see it, analysing it not only with reference to the problems involved in the unemployment figures, but with reference to the problems of employment. In trying to estimate the present trend, in trying to see—to use the metaphor of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood)—whether the clouds are dense or not, and if dense whether they are likely to become more dense, surely we must not concentrate on the unemployment figures, but must look at the employment figures in relation to particular trades, and then look at those trades against the world background.
  First of all, there are two or three things which the House should note about our register. No comparison has been made in the Debate so far between our register and the registers in other countries, but in several speeches outside the House, such comparisons have been made. I would point out that the basis of our figures is administrative, and that they are more complete than the figures to be found in any other country. Again, the figures must be read by reference to the schemes of benefits and allowances, and the greater the improvements in the benefits and allowances, the more complete the register is likely to be. Therefore, the use of the figures in mass leads to errors both in understanding the problem and in considering action. I hope the House will bear with me if I give a few figures in order to break up the problem and to see for what it is that we are being asked to plan. On 14th February, 1938, there were estimated to be in work, excluding agricultural workers, insured persons, between the ages of 16 and 64,

  1269
  to the number of 11,324,000. There were estimated to be unemployed 1,810,000, and this number includes 1,062,000 adult males who were registered as wholly unemployed. The total number of persons registered as temporarily stopped was 335,000. [An HON. MEMBER: "Men?"] I am referring to the total number of people unemployed. Unless I specifically mention the sex, the figures apply to all those concerned within the section. There were 70,000 casual workers. Those temporarily stopped and normally in casual employment came to a total of 405,000, out of a total register of 1,810,000. There were 251,000 women registered as wholly unemployed. The total figure includes 111,000 juveniles under the age of 18.
  Dealing first of all with those who are temporarily stopped, if anybody asks me, "What do you intend to do in the direction of public works for the 430,000 who have found their way on to the register during the last five months?" My answer is that I do not think a policy of capital works is any solution of the problem of more than 100,000 temporarily stopped workers in the textile industry in Yorkshire and Lancashire. If anybody proposes capital works as a general remedy, I maintain that they would not be a remedy in that particular part of the country. The remedy for that particular problem lies elsewhere. Indeed, those who are running a double campaign on the one hand, for planning for more prosperity, and on the other hand a demand for low prices, are making incompatible demands. Any such demands are frivolous demands, because things which are fundamentally incompatible must be fundamentally frivolous. [Interruption.] If hon. Members will think that remark over, they will see that there is a good deal more wisdom in it than they may realise now.
  The fact is that the rise in prices about which complaint has been made began as a result of the return to prosperity, and the lowest cost of living index number in this country coincided with the largest number of unemployed. I do not want to encroach on the ground of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, but I would like to say that one of the elements which showed itself in August—it did not show
  1270
  itself in July—when I was planning my tours to the nine Ministry of Labour divisions, was a drop in the price of raw wool which, six weeks later, made itself felt in almost every exchange in parts of the West Riding in an increase in the number of workers temporarily stopped. That fall in the price of raw wool affected the textile industries in the West Riding. I give that instance to show that one cannot commend every general policy of planning as a universal remedy for the great human problems involved in the question of dealing with every one of the people registered at the exchanges. It is for this reason that to-night I call the attention of the House and the country to the analysis of these figures.
  Moreover, in looking at the magnitude of the problem, both from the point of view of those who have a plan or desire a plan, and of the unemployed themselves, the question arises as to how long the unemployed have been out of work. The House will have noticed that in the recent returns of the Ministry of Labour, we have given the country some regular information about that. We have made special counts in order to discover how long the unemployed had been unemployed. The latest figures for February reveal the following position. Of the total figure, 46 per cent., or 764,000, of the claimants for benefits and allowances—those are the only ones for whom we can get accurate figures—had been unemployed for less than six weeks; 63 per cent., or 1,041,000, had been unemployed for less than three months; 75 per cent., or 1,252,000, had been unemployed for less than six months. We come then to the hard core, to the men and women about whom the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) has spoken with such eloquence this evening. In February, they amounted to 17 per cent., or 279,000, of the total. It is there that we have the real problem. It is an interesting comment on the last four years that that hard core is now smaller than it has been at any time during the last four years. I am sure that hon. Members, whatever may be their political views, will agree that that is a cause, not for complacency, but for satisfaction. When one considers the figures in this way, one sees the real problem.
  In the first place, for those who are changing over from one job to another,

  1271
  or who have been out of work for a short time, it is a matter of placing in the most expert way. Hon. Members will have noticed that the exchange machinery of the Ministry of Labour, which is a plan in operation, is more successful each year in drawing a larger number of employers to consult with it as to where best they can find the labour they need, and ever increasing use is made of that machinery by the unemployed themselves, in facilitating the quick change over from one job to another. In reply to my Noble Friend the Member for Central Bristol, who raised a specific point in this respect, I would point out that the exchanges regularly do all they can not merely to help those who desire labour on the industrial side, but those who require it in agriculture. The placing work of the Ministry was more successful last year than it had ever been before. It is a day-to-day and year-to-year plan for assisting industry and labour to get together in the quickest possible time, so that the period of unemployment may be shortened.
  Secondly, the prospects in one area and in another, as in one industry and another, are not the same. I would observe that, it is a remarkable thing that after four years of extraordinary recovery, years in which we have broken every previously recorded total of employment, and at a time when we have an estimated total of 11,324,000 in employment—20,000 more than were estimated to be in work in February of last year and 2,000,000 more than in February, 1932—less than half of the insured population, in 1937 was to be found in Scotland, Wales and the North of England, and that rather more than half was in the Midlands, South and West. Of the unemployed in those same areas the former group, Scotland, Wales and the North of England, contained nearly two-thirds of the workers now registered as unemployed, and the latter group contained 645,000, or rather more than a third of the total unemployed. That is to say, 1,165,000 were in the former group and 645,000 in the latter.
  Let me give one more illustration to put the thing in focus. Let us look at the incidence with regard to percentages. I take the same areas, the South and Midlands first. The incidence varies between 8 and 10 per cent. In Scotland
  1272
  and the North it varies between 13 and 18 per cent., whereas in Wales the incidence is 24 per cent. So the problem is a very different one when you deal with a very prosperous area in the South or the Midlands, or any prosperous part of any of the other areas, for there are prosperous parts in every area of the country now—from the problem in an area where the recovery has not been as great and especially in those two areas whose fortunes have been so long mainly dependent upon contracting industries—the coal areas and the cotton areas.
  I come to the point stressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley. We have at the Ministry made inquiries about this in order to find where the burden is greatest and where the problem is most urgent. These are the analyses. Of the men, two-fifths of the unemployed are below 35 and one-fifth betwee 35 and 45—the group between 25 and 40 is the largest group in the total population and also the largest group in regard to eligibility for employment, and one of the surprises I had in making the analysis was the comparatively large proportion in that age group—and two-fifths over 45. When we come to women, the situation is different. Of those registered as unemployed in November, three-fifths were below 35, one-fifth between 35 and 45 and one-fifth over 45. Coming to the older group still, the group above 55, 22 per cent. of the men were over 55–250,000—and 22,000, or just over 9 per cent., of the women were over 55.
  That, of course, leads me at once to consider what the prospects are in the various industries and what the outlook is. The right hon. Gentleman challenged me to give my views as to the future. He quoted from the Unemployment Statutory Committee. That Committee's report is the result of a Government plan. It is the annual working out of a Government plan whereby we look ahead and try to forecast what ought to be done with the funds that we apply for the benefit of those who are out of work, and to look ahead for as long as a cycle of eight years. It has the advantage that it provides the country and Members of the House with such forecasts as can reasonably be made. The right hon. Gentleman quoted one passage from the report but not the other. The economic

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  advice given by the Committee is so balanced that it is illusory to quote a part only. The right hon. Gentleman was in error in talking about the report being the first to advocate the putting aside of a large sum by way of reserve. [Interruption.] I understood him to say that. In the very first survey of the position they made a recommendation that it was a prudent thing to put aside out of the balance a large sum against a recession, as we now call it—the word is not ours. It came from America, from no less a person. I believe, than the President of the United States. It is a convenient term, because it more accurately defines the position than the word "slump," which is so often used.
  Let us see what the record is in certain outstanding industries. Let us take a comparison between now and six years ago. In the coal mining industry it is not quite the same problem as two years ago. Unemployment has been reduced from 295,000 to 97,000, but this is very largely discounted by a fall of 177,000 in the insured population. That is to say, those who are insured in the industry now, as compared with six years ago, are 868,000 instead of 1,045,000 as was the case then. Here is the percentage. Today unemployment is 11 per cent., whereas then it was 28.
  Mr. Dunn: Do we understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that there are 868,000 in the mining industry?
  Mr. Brown: I am not talking of persons on the colliery books. I am talking of insured persons six years ago and the comparable figure to-day.
  Mr. Dunn: Is not the real fact that there are 760,000 men on the books, and not 868,000?
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member is now attempting to put a gloss on it which cannot be sustained. Some of the 868,000 insured persons who were in work when we took the last count may be out of work next time, while some of those on the insured register who were then out of work may be in work next time. I am using precisely comparable figures, not ignoring the fact that the insured population is generally larger than those in work at any given time. [Interruption.] The hon. Member does not do me justice. I made it plain that I was not
  1274
  dealing with the persons on the colliery books. I never mentioned the colliery books. I quoted the figures of insured persons in the industry, and the moment the hon. Member rose I knew exactly what was the point in his mind, because when at the Ministry of Mines I had interdepartmental discussions with the Minister of Labour dealing with the difference between the two figures.
  With regard to cotton, there has been a large reduction in unemployment, from 143,000 to 95,000. This has, unfortunately, resulted from persons leaving the industry for other kinds of work. Cotton has suffered considerable contraction, the insured population having fallen from 518,000 to 408,000. Unemployment has improved from 26 to 23 per cent. but the numbers in employment are smaller than they were six years ago. [Interruption.] The Government are being asked to plan and they have a right to point out where the people are and what industries are concerned. That is a fair proposition in answer to the demand that has been made. The first element of planning is to know for whom you are planning, where they are and whether they need a plan at all, whether they are men who will, in the ordinary way, find work in two or three days or a week, whether they are men who have been out so long that the country as a whole desires to take notice, as it has in the Special Areas, of their particular plight as long-term unemployed men.
  Major Procter: Has the right hon. Gentleman come to any conlusion as to helping those weavers who are working on two looms?
  Mr. Brown: That problem is complicated by one of the most difficult of all our industrial problems, namely, that side by side with the large number of unemployed and with contraction in the industry, you have the particularly acute and distressing feature of under employment while at work.
  Mr. Burke: Is it not a fact that in the last 12 months the number of weavers unemployed has almost doubled—that it hase risen from 21,000 to 40,000?
  Mr. Brown: I hope before the end of my speech to give some facts about the textile trades to show that the greatest single factor in the increase of 400,000 has been in those trades. Let me try to

  1275
  give a picture of the situation as it is in the main industries. General engineering has recovered from the depression and is now enjoying "boom" conditions. In an insured population of 608,000, unemployment has been reduced from 160,000 in February, 1932, to 39,000 at the present time, that is, from 28 per cent. to 6 per cent., and I draw the inference that employment has increased by between 180,000 and 190,000. In shipbuilding and ship-repairing the situation is much improved though still serious. Unemployment has been reduced by 75,000 but the number of persons engaged has fallen by about 8,000. The unemployment percentage is now 21 compared with 60, which was the figure six years ago. The present unemployment is 34,000 and, on the latest figures, the insured population is 163,000.
  Miss Wilkinson: How much of that fall is due to the fact that shipbuilding yards have been closed down altogether, and therefore people have been put out of the industry permanently?
  Mr. Brown: I think I have indicated that that is one of the elements of the situation. I pointed out that the number of persons engaged has fallen which shows that we have in mind the point mentioned by the hon. Lady. The building industry has made a considerable improvement. There is an increase in the insured population of 174,000, together with a reduction in unemployment of 102,000. In other words, the industry employs 250,000 more persons than it did six years ago. The present number of unemployed is 170,000 of an insured population which last July numbered over 1,000,000. The unemployment is mainly in the ranks of the unskilled workers. Coming to motor vehicle, cycle and aircraft manufacture, we find another illustration of greatly increased employment. The figures show how a general picture of conditions may not be accurate. Unemployment has been reduced here by 30,000. At the same time 100,000 extra persons have been engaged, or an increase of about 130,000 in the number employed. At the last count there were 25,000 unemployed out of an insured population of 348,000 in this industry. The distributive trades have shown a remarkable increase step by step with the expansion of trade. They now employ 150,000 more
  1276
  than they did six years ago, as the result of an increase of personnel of 104,000, and a reduction in unemployment of 46,000. The present unemployment totals 202,000 out of an insured population of a little more than 2,000,000.
  I sum up in this way. The estimated number of insured persons in employment was, as I have said, 11,324,000 in February or 20,000 more than in February, 1937—there is no sign of a recession there—and 2,000,000 more than there were six years ago. All the main industries, except woollens and worsteds, show a considerable reduction in unemployment. Cotton shows a reduction in unemployment, but it is offset by the facts to which I have already referred. Every one of the nine divisions of the Ministry of Labour shows a considerable reduction in unemployment, but the fact remains that the incidence of unemployment is about twice as severe in the North and in Scotland, and nearly three times as severe in Wales, as it is in the Midlands and the South.
  Mr. Shinwell: Why does the right hon. Gentleman stick to the year 1932 in these comparisons? Is there any special reason for taking that year? Could he not take 1929 or even 1930, or perhaps 1931, when he first became a member of the Government?
  Mr. Brown: I take that year, because it gives a fair picture of the difference between things as they were at the worst, and things as they are now. The right hon. Gentleman opposite talked about slumps. I am trying to give the House a picture of the situation as it compares with the worst period of the slump. I have been asked to say what we would do, and reference has been made to a figure of 3,000,000 unemployed. I have first to show the difference between the state of affairs at that period and the existing state of affairs.
  I was asked about the recent rise in unemployment. Between September, 1937, and February, 1938, there was a rise of 471,000 in the figures, but of those, 143,000 were temporarily stopped workers and 14,000 were casual workers. Over the six months period the total unemployment increased by 35.2 per cent.; but the increase in the numbers wholly unemployed was only 28.8 per cent. while those temporarily stopped have increased by 74.5 per cent. as compared with the

  1277
  earlier figures. The worker who is temporarily stopped has the expectation of returning to his usual employment in the near future. Many of these workers are actually changing over from one job to another. In many cases they are experiencing either systematic or intermittent short-time work and they happened to be out of employment on the date when the count was taken. I was asked my opinion about the rise in the last five months. I draw the conclusion that the higher proportionate increase in the number temporarily stopped suggests that the increased totals are the result of a temporary slackening in industry rather than any permanent set-back, and affords grounds for hoping that the improvement found in last month's figure will continue.
  Mr. George Griffiths: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us the difference between the figures for February of this year and those of February last year?
  Mr. Brown: I have already pointed out that there are 20,000 more at work now than there were in February of last year. There are those who talk about the problem of capital works as though it had the same background now as it had six or seven years ago. The problem of public works to-day is not the same problem as it was then. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) asked me whether it was possible to give any picture of what is being done at the moment. I do not think it is possible to give a complete picture, but I shall try to indicate, under certain main headings, how much is being done at this moment by the central Government, the local authorities and certain public boards.
  I take housing first. Houses are being built in England and Wales at the rate of 330,000 annually, and of these 70,000 are being provided by local authorities and 260,000 by private enterprise. That compares with 202,000 in 1932. If the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) would like the figure for 1929 I can give it to him. It was 203,000, and the figure for 1930 was 162,000. The number of houses provided by local authorities in the year ended September, 1937, was 71,500 and the loans sanctioned by the Ministry of Health for housing for the 11 months from 1st April, 1937, to 28th February, 1938, amounted to £35,300,000, compared with £38,000,000 for the whole of the financial year 1936–37. Taking
  1278
  health and miscellaneous services, the loans sanctioned during the 11 months ended on 28th February, 1938, amounted to £30,200,000 compared with £26,000,000 for the whole of the previous financial year. Expenditure for educational purposes by local authorities approved by the Board of Education for the first 11 months of 1937–38 amounted to £11,700,000.
  Mr. Kelly: Is that entirely for building?
  Mr. Brown: For educational purposes. I would point out, since the question has been raised, that there is always a time-lag between approval being given to a scheme by the Board of Education and application to the Ministry of Health for sanction of the loan. In the case of transport, the public expenditure with which the Ministry of Transport is concerned on roads and bridges amounted in 1936–37 to £58,000,000. In the case of railways there are two programmes, subject to agreements under which the Treasury guarantee the capital expenditure. The first agreement provides for work in the London area amounting to £14,000,000, and the second for work in the provinces amounting to £29,500,000, and up to the end of June, 1937, an expenditure of over £11,700,000 had been incurred.
  As regards electricity, loans sanctioned by the Electricity Commissioners for electricity purposes, excluding the Central Electricity Board, amounted to £24,000,000 during 1936–37 as compared with £17,000,000 in the previous year. The Central Electricity Board is empowered to borrow up to £60,000,000 for the construction and acquisition of main transmission lines and purposes connected therewith, and the standardisation of frequency. At present, I understand, borrowing has been sanctioned by the board up to £52,500,000 of which less than £2,000,000 remains unexercised. Apart from that, the board can, with the approval of the Electricity Commissioners, direct authorised undertakers to carry out extensions and alterations, and during 1936 the estimated amount of expenditure involved in such directions was £12,500,000 spread over the next two or three years. Loans sanctioned in 1936–37 in connection with the conversion of tramway services to trolley vehicles or omnibus services amounted to

  1279
  £1,750,000. Dock developments involved a capital expenditure of which I cannot at the moment give the House the figure.
  In the case of the Post Office the total expenditure on the engineering programme was £21,500,000 in 1936–37, of which nearly £14,000,000 was in respect of new works of construction in connection with the telephone and telegraph services. It is anticipated that there will be a considerable increase in the capital expenditure on telephone equipment in the current year. The actual expenditure on the engineering programme is estimated at about £27,000,000. As regards miscellaneous works for Government Departments, under the heading of civil works the expenditure of the Office of Works in 1937 was £2,750,000 which, of course, is exclusive of all work done under the Defence programme. I have made inquiries from the Home Office and the Prison Commissioners in regard to their building programmes, and I am informed that, excluding expenditure on air-raid precautions, their expenditure on buildings such as section houses, police stations, and prisons, amounted in 1937 to nearly £2,000,000.
  There is one other item to which I will refer, in which hon. Members below the Gangway opposite will be interested, and that is in regard to forestry work. In 1929 the expenditure was £900,000; in 1932, £700,000; and in 1937, £1,300,000. When I say that the problem is very different now from the one which we discussed 11 years ago hon. Members will agree, I am sure, and also that this is a very formidable programme that is now being carried out. Under loans sanctioned for expenditure estimated by Government Departments, local authorities, and public undertakings, it amounts to somewhere between £200,000,000 and £300,000,000.
  Mr. Foot: Is it not a fact that in 1931 the work of the Forestry Commission was one of the first to be slowed down?
  Mr. Brown: Perhaps the hon. Member would like to have it in another way. The plantations maintained in existence increased from 127,000 acres in 1929, to 200,000 acres in 1932, and 330,000 acres in 1937, and plantable land went up
  1280
  from 320,000 acres in 1929, to 400,000 acres in 1932, and 600,000 acres in 1937. May I now be allowed to complete the picture by giving the House the latest figures about the Defence programme? Government contracts from 1st April, 1936, to the end of January, 1938—direct contracts in connection with the Defence programme—have been placed by Service Departments to the value of £344,768,700, and in the scheduled areas the contracts amounted, of that sum, to £96,492,000, of which orders to the value of £57,000,000 were placed in the Special Areas.
  Mr. Shinwell: Has the right hon. Gentleman any estimate of the numbers employed in consequence of this expenditure?
  Mr. Brown: I have explained to the House on numerous occasions that it is impossible to give any estimate of that kind. As the House knows very well, the work covers a number of large contracts and many thousands of small contracts. Now let me say a word about the construction side, which is again part of the plan of the Ministry of Labour's work. Take training. It is a very interesting fact—there is a number of figures that I might give, but I will give only one, and the figures are very eloquent—that in the last year, out of 10,761 young men who came to our centres for training for semi-skilled work, we placed 10,424, and since the schemes were started the numbers placed have amounted to over 60,000—a very remarkable piece of work. I have made it quite clear that if there are any other trade union members in the engineering trades, who, by refresher courses of this kind, might find a chance, although they are above the normal age at which we take young men, we shall be very pleased to give them an opportunity of taking the course. The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) referred to the Special Areas. I gathered that he did not expect an answer now, but he raised one point that I can answer. I will not argue the case whether or not the arbitrary areas should be altered, but I will give some light on one point which may concern Dundee. If the hon. Member will look at Section 9 of the Act, he will find that they need not be held up because of the fear that any undertakings not entered into before 1939 will not—
  Mr. Foot: I am sorry if I did not make myself clear, but my point was that under Sections 5 and 6 there are two forms of approval that can be given. First, assistance can be given to site companies; secondly, assistance can be given to concerns which are set up on the sites let to them by site companies. I understood that a site company would get an advance from the Treasury if it was incorporated before March, 1939, but I was advised that concerns which were set up might not be able to get assistance if they actually took over the site after March, 1939. Therefore it is important, when you are setting out on an adventure of this kind, to know what will happen after March, 1939.
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member will look at Section 9, he will find that there are three particular provisions there, which deal with the problem he raised. The hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) raised a point about supplementation. I do not think the complaints to which he referred were correct, but I will look further into that matter. With regard to the cases of the alien technicians, the hon. Member raised that matter by letter, and I will say one general word and one particular word on that subject. I am sending him a letter in a day or so about the actual case concerned, but on the general issue the House, especially now, desires two things. It desires the Minister of Labour to do his duty under the Act and to safeguard the rights of British workers and their opportunities for employment, but I have gathered from the reception the House gave recently to a statement by the Home Secretary I am required to do that with a sympathetic feeling for the needs for some of these people.
  I had intended to say something about rationalisation and mechanisation, but I do not wish to detain the House too long, and so I will content myself by saying that I am asked whether I can say anything about any plans that we may have with local authorities for the future. I cannot usefully add to what was said about a month ago by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and perhaps I may be allowed to repeat what he then said. He was asked whether any steps had been taken to cope with the increased number of the unemployed, and he replied:
  1282
  "In reply to the first part of the question, the increase in unemployment to which the hon. Member refers is largely due to causes of a seasonal character and is not of such a nature as to call for the institution of measures, other than those which the Government are continuously applying for the stimulation of employment. As regards the preparation of plans for the future, this matter has not been overlooked and the Government are now considering what further steps they can take in conjunction particularly with local authorities. At the same time, I think it right to say that too much reliance should not be placed upon the possibility of doing more by such plans than contributing in some degree to reduce fluctuations of trade and employment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th February, 1938; col. 1230, Vol. 331.]
  I do not think we need fear that the clouds are as black as hon. Members opposite think. There is a temporary slowing down, but we shall do everything that we can to lay our plans to enable us to go forward, and in the meantime the Ministry of Labour, through their various constructive services, will do all they can to find jobs where those jobs are available for men, whether elderly or young.
  Mr. Leslie: I am sorry I did not catch the figures of the unemployed in the distributive trades. Could the right hon. Gentleman give them to me?
  Mr. Brown: I will let the hon. Member have them.
  7.41 p.m.
  Mr. Daggar: I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman's speech with great care, and I must say that I have never heard a more incoherent, disconnected speech in my life. One observation that I want to make is that he has not endeavoured to explain the fact that we have 1,800,000 persons unemployed at a time when the Government are commencing upon an armament expenditure of £1,500,000,000. That fact he has deliberately burked with repeated references to some picture that he has not even now completed, whatever the picture might be. However, we are all, I am sure, pleased that for the moment the national situation has eased sufficiently to permit us once again to discuss matters that directly affect the lives of our people in this country.
  I suppose that to-night, as upon previous occasions when the question of unemployment and the condition of our people has been raised in this House, we

  1283
  shall be told about the improvement that has taken place. We shall be told, as we were last year, that the measure of improvement is to be found in the increase of free meals supplied to the children attending elementary schools. We were told by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, when our people were in office, that there were 479,000 children supplied with meals and that the number supplied had increased from 7,500,000 to 86,500,000. Another Parliamentary Secretary, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health, also told us that the number of meals supplied to our children at school had increased from 27,500,000 to 100,000,000. It is very strange that both hon. Members should express the same view. Perhaps the explanation is to be found in the fact that all great minds think alike, or that there may have been an exchange of briefs, or that little things to small minds appear great. In any event, I am surprised that an increase in the number of free meals to children in our elementary schools is evidence of prosperity. I have always considered it evidence of the poverty of their parents and that children were fed at school because their parents could not afford to feed them at home.
  I desire to remind the House that nearly 10 years have passed since the existence of distressed areas, as they were then called, began to be recognised nationally, and to remind the right hon. Gentleman, with regard to his claim that there has been an improvement in the conditions of our people, that according to the "Times" statement made at the end of last year:
  "The number of people wholly out of work in the South Wales Special Area three years ago was 135,000, about one-third of the normal working population; and until the summer of 1936 it hardly changed at all. It is no slur upon the Commissioner's activities that the shrinkage to 90,000 which has occurred in the last 12 or 15 months is due largely to a sudden and sustained demand for coal. Short-time working, that bane of so many households in the valleys these last 10 years, has vanished. The peak of employment in the mines has not necessarily been reached, though it may be near."
  It is with the problem in South Wales that I want particularly to deal, not ignoring the fact that we have 1,800,000 persons on the unemployment registers. I want to put before the House two facts which
  1284
  must be faced, in my opinion, if an attempt is to be made to solve this problem of unemployment, particularly as it affects those of us who live in various parts of South Wales and Monmouthshire. One of them is emphasised in the Second Industrial Survey of South Wales, by Professor Marquand, a person who was employed by the Government to undertake the first survey that had ever been made for that area. The first point he emphasises is that if the 1929 output of coal could be regained, there would remain a surplus of 44,000 wholly unemployed miners. If the 1934 output remains the maximum, the surplus will be no fewer than 74,000. That fact constitutes a part of the problem which must receive consideration. A second fact is stated by the same authority in an article contributed to the "Colliery Guardian" supplement on 22nd November last year. I do not apologise for quoting from this authority. He says:
  Even if the maximum number of new industries could be successfully introduced the surplus of unemployed labour could not be entirely absorbed. The most important fact in the whole South Wales situation to-day is that nearly half of the wholly unemployed male workers are over 45 years of age. In the Special Areas—that is, in the East Glamorgan and Monmouthshire section of the coalfield—there were in May, 1936, some 16,000 wholly unemployed men between 55 and 64 years of age. To-day the number is probably larger. In the western section of the coalfield there were only 2,240 of these older men wholly unemployed; but the proportion of unemployment among this age-group was, even there, higher than among the younger workers. For all but a handful, reIabsorption in industry on commercial terms of the unemployed over 55 years of age is obviously impossible. For the many thousands who are over 40 or 45 it is evidently very doubtful. This is the most appalling problem that we have to confront. It is one which calls for the most earnest thought and the well-applied effort of every person with sufficient public spirit and true patriotism to care for the welfare of his fellow citizens. For the older men continued idleness, till death affords release, seems to be all that the future holds unless we can devise ways of filling the remaining eight or ten years of their working lives with some form of useful and creative activity outside regular industry. Their plight is vividly pictured in the third annual report of the South Wales Council of Social Service. Surveying the work of his council in the present situation of the coalfield, the secretary writes: 'The technique of a life sentence is very properly different from that of nine months in the second division; and what has been for four or five years a social

  1285
  approach to the meanwhile needs of almost 200,000 men of varying ages, must now also adjust itself to the permanent needs of thousands of men who have 20 or 30 years to live and no prospect of industrial opportunity.' "
  That statement makes it clear that in the opinion of Professor Marquand there is a limitation to results that can be obtained by the introduction of new industries in South Wales. The creation of an industrial Britain is not due to light industries, and, therefore, cannot be maintained by such undertakings. Although that fact must be recognised, it will not prevent me from asking for their establishment in South Wales and Monmouthshire.
  If regard is had to the magnitude of the problem of unemployed in South Wales and Monmouthshire, the Government have done little towards its solution. It is true that there has been some improvement, but that is not due to the efforts of the Government. Our problem there has scarcely been touched. We have it on the authority of the "Western Mail," in a statement they made last year, that there was a record number at work in 1936, but that employment in Wales was 24.6 per cent. less than in 1923. When we had our last discussion the Minister of Health stated that he had been in South Wales and that there had been a considerable improvement. We are under no obligation to accept the Minister of Health as an authority on the improvement that has taken place in South Wales simply because he has had the opportunity of an occasional car ride to the Special Areas there. The facts are to be found in the Government's own publication, to which I want to refer. In the last issue of the report known as the "Survey of Industrial Development" we are able to ascertain to what extent the Government have assisted the Special Areas in South Wales and Monmouthshire during the four years I933–36. During that period the number of factories opened in Great Britain was 2,044 employing 178,750 persons. In South Wales and Monmouth 14 factories were opened employing 2,500 individuals.
  In this connection I desire to direct the attention of Members to the Board of Trade annual publication entitled "Survey of Industrial Development, 1936," which contains the excuses or reasons given by owners of factories for their establishment in places other than the Special Areas. Seven reasons are given, and one of them is called "Proximity to
  1286
  employer's residence." The attitude of the owners of those factories would probably be defended by those who contend that industry exists to serve the interests of society. In 1935 there were eight cases in which this reason was given. Last year there were 13, so that, according to this survey, there have been 21 instances in which the owners have stated that factories have been erected round London simply because they are in proximity to their residences. We can get no information of the numbers of factories involved nor of the number of persons employed. It appears that these owners desire to have their factories near their golf links, fishing stream or favourite grouse shooting preserve. While the report contains observations with regard to each of the other six reasons, there is no comment with regard to the excuse about factories being erected near the residences of the owners.
  Perhaps I may be permitted to make a reference to my own division, because it contains three areas which have been scheduled as Special Areas, because it serves to illustrate the attitude of the Government towards the whole of South Wales and Monmouthshire, and because of a statement made by the Commissioner in his last report. He says that at Abertillery, an area which constitutes part of my division, the unemployment percentage is at least 10 points lower than it was a year ago. Further on he states that
  "there has been a fall of over 15 points at Abertillery and Blaina, both of which places used to be regarded as exceptionally 'black' spots."
  I am not interested in the difference between the 10 points and the 15 points reduction, but I am concerned with the cause of the alleged decrease in unemployment. It is due to migration, which involves the breaking up of homes and to the policy of the Government. Last year 320 persons left Abertillery to take up employment secured for them by the Employment Exchange. Another 377 migrated, having secured employment by their own efforts. That makes a total from that one place of over 690 persons in 12 months. From Blaina, to which reference is made by the Commissioner in his report, the number of persons who left and found work for themselves was 690. The number of those who were found employment by the exchange was 162. which

  1287
  gives a total of 852 who have been compelled to leave the area where they have suffered as a result of the industrial depression since 1921. Since 1931 Abertillery has lost 3,500 people and Blaina during the same period has lost 3,455. There is another Employment Exchange in my division situated at Crumlin, and I find that during the same period 3,069 persons left that place.
  In seven years, therefore, I have lost from my division a number of persons in excess of 10,000, which is equal to a whole township. It is migration which is solving the problem for us in South Wales and not any assistance given by the Government. I had an opportunity of presiding at a meeting in connection with the distribution of prizes at a secondary school in Nantyglo last year, and I was informed by the headmaster that 70 students had passed through the school and that only three were able to secure employment in the neighbourhood. There has not been a single new industry established in any part of the division which I have the honour to represent, but people are forced to find employment round London. That movement towards London will necessitate the expenditure of millions of pounds to secure their safety in the event of another war. Yet we are told by Sir George Gillett in his last report:
  "My efforts have, therefore, been especially directed towards the introduction of a variety of lighter industries which will give employment to women as well as to men and are not so liable to violent fluctuations in a time of slump."
  It may be necessary to observe here that the Government should take an interest in persuading Sir George Gillett not to use the word "slump" but to use the much politer term of "trade recession." Recently an effort has been made by the Natyglo and Blaina urban authority to prevail upon the appropriate department to accept the responsibility for the construction of a road through an adjoining area where employment may be found for some of its people. Such efforts proved as difficult and unprofitable as the introduction of new industries. Much is attempted but nothing achieved in an area where we have had unemployment since 1921. I should like to know when the Government intend doing something for what has been appropriately described as "the land of forgotten men,"
  1288
  for it must be obvious even to the Government that a trading estate at Tre-forest is no solution of the problem to which I have referred.
  While the Government are making up their mind, may I appeal for a measure of afforestation? We talk about stones being given for bread. I am asking whether it is possible for us to have a few trees, until the Government have made up their mind to introduce new industries into that distressed area. There is plenty of land available. Trees have been planted where they are not wanted. Members of this House have received books from authors who are opposed to the policy being carried out by the Forestry Commission. In my own and other divisions in South Wales there is plenty of land available and we should offer no opposition to a measure of afforestation. Neither I nor my colleagues on these Benches can understand why this country should permit the erection of factories in areas where the percentage of unemployment is almost negligible, and where the beauty of the countryside is being sacrificed for the sake of unplanned industrialisation, when there are mining districts where that has already been achieved. I make this appeal to the Government, because Sir George Gillett, in his report, has stated:
  "It may be that many of those who read these pages know as little about the areas from a personal aspect as I did before I undertook this work. I well remember the depressing effect which the great slag heaps and the ruins of dismal factories "—
  He could have said dreary pits as well—
  "had upon me on my first visit, and even some measure of familiarity has not removed that feeling."
  That is the view of an individual who occasionally goes to those areas. I ask the House to consider what must be the feeling of depression among those who have nothing to do but to gaze upon those unsightly evidences of unbridled commercialism, those who have to reside in valleys where the hills have been denuded of their trees and stripped of their national beauty. There are hills there which could be restored to their former spendour if the Government would only make the effort, and put into operation schemes of afforestation—if only they could be persuaded to discharge their obligations to areas which have contributed so much to the industrial and commercial prosperity of this country.

  1289
  I am aware that the Commissioner has said that some progress has been made in this connection, but little has been done in comparison with what is needed. Every report issued, including the one by Lord Portal, makes reference to this matter. In the second report, of February, 1936, it was stated that the Forestry Commission favoured the planting of 200,000 acres outside the Special Areas. I am asking to-night for a measure of afforestation in the Special Areas, and what reason can there be for not acting upon the advice tendered by the Commissioner? In his last report the Commissioner stated that he was willing to exercise his powers to acquire land for planting. Will the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary tell me why we in these areas are refused such a small advantage? I ask that question because of this reference in the Commissioner's second report:
  "In my first report attention was drawn to the desirability of promoting further schemes of afforestation in or near the Special Areas. Since that report was rendered I have had further discussions with the Chairman of the Forestry Commission."
  He also said that a programme of this nature would provide employment for an average of 2,000 manual workers yearly. In every one of the reports reference is made to afforestation. In one of them it is remarked that:
  "Works of afforestation have a high employment value for the money spent."
  In another it is said:
  "It may be that schemes of afforestation cannot go very far in solving the unemployment problem, yet sound schemes of afforestation are an economic proposition."
  In conclusion, I suggest that something must be done in view of the fact that there are still 1,800,000 persons unemployed, and this at a time when we have embarked upon an expenditure of no less than £1,500,000,000. I submit that it is necessary to consider a limitation of the consideration given to new light industries, and that more consideration ought to be given to those industries which have created the industrial supremacy of this country. The methods adopted by the Government are inadequate to deal with the problem. Its policy of assisted and forced migration is no solution for the problem as we see it in South Wales.
  8.6 p.m.
  Major Procter: I wish, first, to congratulate the Minister on a period of very
  1290
  conscientious work and upon the very great sympathy with which he has handled a very difficult problem. I have been somewhat surprised at the tardy recognition not only of his work but of the work of the Government in endeavouring to solve a problem which proved to be beyond the powers of the Labour Government in 1931. It has been said that no blame could be attached to that Government for its remissness in dealing with the unemployment problem, for the cause of unemployment then was the world crisis. To-day there is a world crisis equal to that of 1931; conditions in Europe and in America are worse to-day than they were then; but the remedies which have been applied by the present Government to meet difficult conditions have produced great results, and to-day we do not see in our unemployment figures a mounting roll of unemployed and forgotten men. The Government have operated in a statesmanlike way. They have put into operation well-thought-out schemes, and the result can be seen in Lancashire, and in the constituency which I represent where our unemployment has fallen.
  Before this Government embarked upon a tariff policy to help the unemployment problem we were paying the foreigner for doing our work and paying our unemployed for not doing it. As a result of the tariff policy and the restoration of confidence there has come to Lancashire more than 2,000 factories and extensions of existing factories. Many of them would not be in Lancashire to-day but for Government action. A great firm in Germany has opened a factory in Nelson which will give employment to some thousands of people. I am sorry that that constituency got that factory, because it did not deserve it seeing that it supports free imports and did nothing to encourage the only method which would compel foreign industries to come here. In Blackburn there is a new factory which will make lamps which would otherwise have been made in Holland. At its "peak" this factory will provide employment for 5,000 men and women. Those are accomplishments which ought to be recognised and admited by the Labour party. If hon. Members opposite and their party had ever done anything comparable to this during their period of office their criticisms now would have some value.

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  Now I should like to pass to one or two points which affect mainly my own division. One concerns the problem of the Special Areas. Under powers which have been given to them by this legislature, borough councils which are anxious to attract new industries to their areas can borrow money for the reconditioning of empty mills or for building new factories. There are in my division a number of urban district councils which have a number of unemployed persons in their areas. They are Oswaldtwistle, Rishton, Clayton-le-Moors and Church. Their councillors are desirous of getting hold of empty factories and making them into workshops in order to attract industries to their localities, but unfortunately the legislation prevents urban district councils from borrowing money for that purpose. I suggest that the Minister of Labour should consult with his Cabinet colleagues to see whether that impediment cannot be removed.
  The Special Areas have the promise of the Ministry that they will receive special consideration in the placing of Government contracts; that other things being equal they will get the contracts rather than more prosperous districts in the South. I should like to point out that that undertaking has not been fulfilled in the letter as far as sub-contractors are concerned. Let me give an illustration of the position. There is in Accrington brick works which makes the finest bricks in the world. The Accrington brick is known throughout the world. I believe that in the building of factories or army encampments or barracks, if it rested with the Ministry itself, the orders for the bricks would go to the Special Areas, but the contracts are let out to sub-contractors and they are under no such limitations, have made no such promises.
  Mr. Burke: Accrington is not a Special Area.
  Major Procter: Parts of my division, as far as unemployment is concerned, were until recently entitled to be classed as Special Areas.
  Mr. Burke: It never has been.
  Major Procter: Perhaps I stand corrected in that respect, but, as the hon. Member well knows, when Labour was in office we had a large volume of unemployment, and it was a district which
  1292
  could claim special consideration in these matters. That consideration has been promised, and what I was pointing out was that sub-contractors do not place the orders in the places where work is needed but that the orders have gone to the Birmingham area and to other prosperous districts. I suggest that the Minister of Labour should consult his colleagues in order to secure that contractors and subcontractors working on Government contracts should get their materials from areas in which there is a large volume of unemployment.
  Three special problems confront us in this country and are specially associated with Lancashire. The first of them is the problem of the man of 55 years of age or over. I have many times tried by means of questions to elicit from the Minister what he proposes to do with men of 55 years of age and over who cannot get jobs. This is a very human problem, and among the greatest offenders in this respect are the Government and municipalities. On account of pension schemes, men over 35 years of age have very little chance of geting employment in Government service, such as in the Post Office. In industry the problem is very acute for a man of 55, because a youngster is preferred to him. I know that the Minister of Labour is thinking about this problem with sympathy, and I hope that he will give us a pronouncement at a very early date in regard to it. It may involve a subsidy on wages, but the problem is in any case one which we cannot ignore.
  The problem of any unemployed worker above 45 is a serious one. If affects women workers as well. I am certain that the Minister will give it his sympathy. Mention of it leads me to the question, often raised in this House, of the cotton worker who is only partially employed and who, because of Lancashire independence of spirit, would rather work though she received less money than she might get on the dole. What docs the Minister of Labour say on this subject? What cooperation can we have from the trade unions to deal with the position? If the trade unions and the Minister of Labour were to get together to think out a scheme I am certain it would result in concrete suggestions how best to deal with this important matter. I again appeal for the sympathy of the Minister, this time on behalf Of the limbless ex-service men who, when they fall out of work,

  1293
  have to go to Employment Exchanges to register. There are not many of them; can the Minister not allow them to register by post so that they need not queue up, either to seek for light employment or to receive their pay? I am glad that we have our present Minister. I hope that we shall realise very soon the great harvest of the fine work which he has put in on the problem of unemployment, not only in Lancashire but throughout the country.
  8.19 p.m.
  Mr. Burke: I am pleased to have the opportunity of following the hon. and gallant Member for Accrington (Major Procter). He is one of the representatives of Lancashire constituencies, and his speech amazed me. He began by congratulating the Government on their tariff policy, which he said had done much for employment in the country, and went on to bemoan that there were many empty factories in his constituency and that the Government would not allow even the local authorities to recondition them. He tells us that he wants the Government and the trade unions to deal with the question of the partially unemployed. May I remind him that we have done what we can for that problem of unemployment? We have not only raised it with the Minister, but have taken the trouble to form part of a deputation, as we did the other day. When the matter comes before the House again I hope that we shall have the active support of hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. It is not a question for the trade unions or for the Minister, but for the employer, who has between his own hands the power to open the door if he likes.
  The hon. and gallant Member tells us also that the Government have instituted many statesmanlike schemes. I listened to the Minister of Labour telling us what the Government were doing. He gave us a mass of figures and told us what various Departments were doing in the ordinary course of things, but there was no special effort to find work for the unemployed. At the Post Office, so much was being spent upon electricity, and so on. If the Minister of Labour buys himself a new suit in the ordinary course of things he does not regard that as something done specifically to help the unemployment problem. It is a part of the ordinary course of his existence. The
  1294
  matters which he mentioned to-day were, similarly, not specifically designed to solve the problem of unemployment. The hon. and gallant Member for Accrington spoke about his constituency being a Special Area, but it is not, of course, a Special Area, and it never was. He said he had a brick factory in it, and he hoped that the Government would take some of the bricks and use them. He pleaded with the Government to do so in order to assist the problem of the partially employed and the problem of the old person. After having had to make all those pleas, he said he was satisfied with the policy of the Government.
  The Minister gave us a great many figures. He attempted to do the usual kind of thing and to blind the House with mathematical science. A namesake of mine made speeches in the House of Commons which, I believe, were terrible to listen to but delightful to read afterwards. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman was terrible to listen to and I am afraid that it will be just as bad when it is read in the morning. His long list of figures disclosed nothing of the Government's intentions. He told us that there were more persons employed to-day than there were six years ago, but the population is bigger to-day than it was six or 16 years ago. The number of persons employed will gradually creep up year by year as the population creeps up in size. The number of people who are potentially employable goes up at the same time. The Minister did not tell us that the gap between the number of those who want work and of those who are at work remains as big to-day as it was 10 or 20 years ago, although both figures go up in the chain of things. Nearly 2,000,000 persons are still unemployed.
  The Minister says that he does not like the word "slump" but prefers the word "recession." What is the good of going to one of the persons who are unemployed and saying: "My dear person, you have not been hit by a slump but by a recession." Many of them have been unemployed for a long time; are we to console them by telling them that they have run into an elongated recession? That suggestion does not help them at all. The Minister's next point was that these people were not of a homogeneous kind, but were of various trades, sexes and ages. It is news, real news to give to the House

  1295
  of Commons that the unemployed are not a homogeneous whole but consist of various classes. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the largest numbers of unemployed are in one or two industries, and, if he cannot deal with all the odds and ends of unemployment in the smaller industries, he could at least bring in some schemes which would move the unemployment in the largest and most important industries. Such schemes would naturally and automatically have their effect upon this fringe of smaller industries which exists around the main industries.
  There has been some talk about Special Areas. I want to speak about an area which is not scheduled as a Special Area. I am afraid that, because of that fact, there is a tendency to believe that the unemployment problem there is not as acute as it is in South Wales, Scotland, or Durham or on the North-East coast. I want to deal particularly with unemployment in Lancashire, and specifically with unemployment in the cotton trade. The Minister of Labour, before he left the House, said he would give us some more figures about the cotton trade, in answer to a question that I put to him. He went off without giving us those figures, and perhaps I may be allowed now to give to the House some figures in lieu of those which he might have given.
  There are in Lancashire, of course, quite a number of industries which are of great importance, but the vital industry is still the cotton trade, and in North-East Lancashire—in my own constituency, for example—half the insured population are connected with one branch of the cotton trade, that of weaving. The Unemployment Assistance Board told the Minister in their last report that, by reason of the fact that large numbers of the board's applicants are in the coal mining industry and one or two other important industries, they therefore present a special problem. Lancashire presents a special problem from this point of view, that within the last month, while throughout the country the unemployment figures have shown a decrease of 17,000, there is only one area in the country where the unemployment figures have gone worse, and that is the North-Western area. I may tell the hon. and gallant Member for Accrington that one-half of the improvement of 17,000 over
  1296
  the whole country is wiped out by a fall back of some 8,250 persons in the North-western area, a part of which he represents. In January, 1938, there were 40,000 persons unemployed in the weaving industry. Last year the number was only 21,000, so that during the past 12 months, in this period of prosperity, the number of persons unemployed in the weaving industry has incerased by nearly 20,000. In Burnley, the increase represents 9.6 per cent.; in Blackburn, 6 per cent.; in Bolton, 5 per cent.; and to-day in the town of Burnley 25 per cent. of our insured population are unemployed. In other words, one person out of every four who ought to be in employment in Burnley is unemployed.
  Moreover, the cotton trade, like other trades, has been able of recent years to get a fair supply of juvenile labour. It is able to absorb all the juvenile labour it can get, and it wants more. It is, however, at the older end of the scale that people cannot get employment in Burnley, and the probability is that, as you walk about the town of Burnley today, one out of every three adult persons is unemployed. That, of course, is a very serious position. The Unemployment Assistance Board's own report tells us that 45 per cent. of the people who make application to the Board are over 45 years of age. That problem of an employable population of increased age and of young persons drifting away to other areas or going into blind-alley occupations for a couple of years and being thrown out at 16, is acute, not only in Burnley, but over the whole Lancashire cotton area.
  In addition to the main problem of unemployment in Lancashire, we have an unemployment problem that is peculiar to Lancashire, and I hope the Minister will take some cognisance of this. We have there what is known as under-employment or unregistered employment, or unrecorded employment, that is to say, unemployment that does not appear on the register of any Employment Exchange, but means that people are working the full 48 hours per week looking after two looms and only receiving half wages. Where a man is looking after a loom for a full week, he may get 8s. or 10s., and people may therefore be working the full 48 hours and leaving their mill with a wage of only £1, or 19s., or 18s. 6d.

  1297
  That problem exists in Lancashire and nowhere else, and we have asked the Minister to give his attention to it and to do something.
  Major Procter: Have not the trade unions evolved a scheme for solving that problem?
  Mr. Burke: Yes; the trade unions have been trying to deal with that problem with the employers for the last 10 years, but—
  Major Procter: Will the hon. Member tell us what their solution is?
  Mr. Burke: The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows as well as I do what the solution is. He knows that at the present time we are asking the cotton trade employers to give us a minimum wage of only 30s. a week—a terribly low wage. That is the solution, and the hon. and gallant Member knows that we have not got it yet. The Minister says he does not like us to go over these trade figures with a microscope. Believe me, there is no need to use a microscope in looking at the problems of Lancashire; the facts stand out for everyone to see. In 1920 or thereabouts, there were 600,000 persons engaged in the cotton industry. Now there are 400,000. That means that the industry has lost, because it cannot maintain them, at least one-third of the people who were engaged in it a few years ago, and, unless people are going to be blind and deaf to all that that means in the way of human misery, the problems do not call for any microscope; they are there for anyone to see.
  As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is present, I would like to say a word about another aspect of the cotton industry. As he knows, if the industry is to improve, it will have to improve by expanding its export trade. In a steady flow of exports lies the solution of its problems. Recently Lancashire has suffered a very severe blow as the result of economic conditions in another part of the world. Whatever else Lancashire can do, she can never afford to be isolationist; her problems are linked up with problems all over the world. Just recently, on the top of the fact that our trade has slumped tremendously from year to year, the economic crisis on the west coast of Africa has robbed us of what had become one of our best markets.
  1298
  A year ago we were sending 17,000,000 square yards of cloth per month to the Gold Coast. In one year, that 17,000,000 square yards has dropped to 3,000,000 square yards. Out of 160,000,000 square yards, 17,000,000 square yards was a fairly decent proportion. I believe, in fact, that this had become the next largest market after India. But 3,000,000 square yards out of 160,000,000 square yards is negligible. The world's attention has been drawn to the fact that cocoa is being burned on the west coast of Africa. As far as Lancashire is concerned, that means more and more idle looms. Burning cocoa on the west coast of Africa has left the natives there without money to buy the cloth that Lancashire men would be employed in making. I know the Government have sent a Commission out to inquire into the matter, but the Commission will not report until July. I urge the Government to take some immediate action if our second largest market is to be saved to us at all.
  In the same 12 months that has seen this drop in our exports, the number of persons unemployed has risen in Burnley from 3,417 to 6,593—that is in the cotton weaving section alone. I wonder how the hon. and gallant Member for Accrington likes this. You say that this problem is only temporary. It is not a temporary problem in Burnley. There are in Burnley 1,652 cotton weavers who have not done any work for 12 months or more. It may be a long period beyond the 12 months for some of them; but, for at least 12 months, the whole of them have done no work. That hard core of unemployment in the cotton trade is something that the Minister ought to have told us about. Instead, he gave us a mass of figures and percentages and a lot of words, behind which, I suggest, he hid a lot of ignorance.
  All over the world, there is grave concern about our overseas trade. Whatever the Government's policy you cannot have an isolationist policy for Lancashire. I suggest that what is necessary to restore the position of Lancashire, is a better deal for Lancashire goods in the markets of the world. We in this country are the world's best customers, and we ought to be able to use that as a lever to get better bargains in our negotiations. The risks of exporters are greater, perhaps, than ever before in the history of export trade

  1299
  in this country, and Government assistance and protection will, perhaps, be necessary to gain for Lancashire that standard of reciprocity to which we are entitled. I suggest that in any treaty negotiations, political or commercial, that the Government are entering into, the first principle should be that of mutual support, whether with Empire countries or others. Lancashire asks for help, because she has done something to help herself. We have done all we can in attracting other industries. The hon. and gallant Member for Accrington tells us that 2,000 factories have come to Lancashire. I do not know where they are or where he gets the figures. I have been at some pains to get the figures out of the Government's own statement.
  Major Procter: If you read the report of the Lancashire Development Association you will find the figures all set out.
  Mr. Burke: I have the Government's own report for 1936.
  Major Procter: This is 1938.
  Mr. Burke: This is their last report. There is a very great difference between the hon. and gallant Member's figures and those given in this official report. This report tells us that there have been only 551 new factories up to 1936 in the whole country; 430 of them were connected with the home trade, and 121 with the export trade. It is true that in the north-west region, out of that 551 new factories, we got 114, but 15 of those were transfers within the area. Let us look to the other side of the picture. We opened 114 new factories, but in the same 12 months we closed down 120, of which 68 were textile mills. The one area in the whole country where you have more mills closed than anywhere else is the northwestern area, and the one industry in which you have more mills closed than in any other is the textile industry, and the one branch of that industry in which there were more mills closed than in any other branch is the weaving branch. That is a problem which no glossing over by figures can get around.
  I ask the Government to consider the position of Lancashire, with its derelict mills, long-term unemployment, and its high burden of rates. We have to maintain our social services and meet new
  1300
  burdens imposed on us by Government demands—and these have to be met by people whose wages are low and amongst whom unemployment is high. Those who need most have least with which to meet those needs. In Burnley our rates are 13s., in Blackpool they are 8s. 6d., and in Bournemouth 7s. The public assistance rate in Burnley is 2s. 9d., and in Blackpool it is only 7d. Those are the figures that I commend to the Government. I ask them to turn to the problem of Lancashire and do something to help an industry which did so much to build up the commercial life of this country.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. Porritt: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Burke), because I am a Lancashire man and live in that county. In many ways I support what the hon. Member has said. Only two years ago, there was considerable partisan bitterness whenever questions of unemployment and economic stress were raised here. I think it is true that to-night most hon. Members have tried to make constructive suggestions to the Government, and I hope that they will get the response they deserve. I would like to question the hon. Member for Burnley on the point he made when he said that the employer in Lancashire has the key in his own hands if he will give better conditions to his employés. The hon. Member must realise that the Lancashire cotton trade depends entirely on exports.
  Mr. Burke: I was replying to the hon. and gallant Member for Accrington (Major Procter) on one point only—that of under-employment, two looms instead of four. That was the point I meant.
  Mr. Porritt: I think we are all desirous of seeing men given proper wages. I know many men in the cotton trade who have been working 20 or 30 years at their job, and who are getting juveniles' wages, for the simple reason that there are no juveniles and that adult workers who may be unemployed are offered their jobs at very low wages and, if they refuse, they get no unemployment benefit. I should be out of order if I went into the pros and cons of tariff policy in India. As the hon. Member said, when he talked about the West Indian trade, the trade in Lancashire to-day is in a very parlous plight, and I am not going to camouflage the fact. There are factories which have

  1301
  closed down for the first time in their history, and employers all round feel pretty desperate about it, and I hope that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who replies will realise that fact. I am not, fortunately, in the ordinary cotton industry, but we are in an allied trade to that and we have felt the draught, as has everybody else, and as I live in the district, as an employer, I know very well what the feelings are in Lancashire to-day.
  On top of this trade depression—they call it slump in Lancashire—comes this West Indian business. We in Lancashire look upon it with considerable suspicion. We feel that the cocoa consuming interests in this country are not giving the natives a square deal. They have forced down the prices, and the natives, who are no longer the illiterate men of half a century ago, are striking back at these cocoa interests. We in Lancashire hope that they will win. What makes us so bitter in Lancashire to-day is that the cocoa and chocolate industries in Birmingham and the Midlands and in York stand out as ideal employers of labour, yet it seems to those of us who have been hard put to it to find decent wages for our employés that all that they are doing in the cocoa trade is to force down the price of cocoa and so make the West African natives sell it at any price and thereby make profits for the cocoa industry in this country.
  That is the general feeling of Lancashire to-day. It may be wrong; I hope it is. We are faced with the position that a section of the cotton industry, which has enjoyed considerable prosperity in spite of the dreadful depression of 1931–32, has been pretty badly hit. We feel, too, that to send out a commission which will take months to report is wrong, that the problem of cocoa prices in West Africa should never have arisen, and that the Board of Trade should have been alive to the fact of what was happening and should have saved all the trouble and distress which have been caused in Lancashire. I am making a very strong speech on the subject because I know that the feeling is strong in Lancashire.
  I want to support what the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Burke) has said with regard to short employment. Men to-day are only getting, say, 15s. a week for two looms, and if any of these men, having worked two or three weeks,
  1302
  have an accident, the compensation they receive is based on the average wages they were paid for the last 12 months. The result is that they may be incapacitated for life and they receive a miserable pittance as compensation. I understand that the trade unions have taken up this principle with the Ministry of Labour, and I think it is foolish of hon. Members on this side of the House not to take cognisance of the fact and to do what they can to help people in such circumstances.
  One other thing I would like to mention is the question of new industries. Hon. Members opposite, again, have tried to force the Government to compel industrialists to start industries in their Special Areas in the North. I do not think that compulsion is desirable, but the Government should make much greater efforts than they have in the past to get these industrialists to start industries in already industrialised areas. In Lancashire we have the problem of large numbers of empty mills. The Spindles Board have already closed down 48 mills, and there must be a couple of hundred mills besides which are standing derelict. These mills for the most part are not suitable for modern industry, the reason being that they are four, five or six storeys high; and, again, these mills, which were built 50 or 60 years ago, were built to the designs of that period, the pillars are too near together and in many cases they are inconvenient for modern machinery. The only solution is for the site companies to build modern ground-storey factories, and then, I think, they will get the industries which they want. But it depends, I believe, upon the Board of Trade and the Government to insist in some way in order to get these industries to come north. It is wearisome when you come south, as I do every week, to see new factories springing up in the outskirts of London. Obviously, the reason is that the managers and directors like to live in London. They like the enjoyments of the Metropolis. There is a larger population situated in a small area in London—8,000,000—but there are as many people within 100 miles of Manchester as there are within 100 miles of the centre of London. Lancashire is a very great industrial centre and should not be overlooked.
  I would like to hark back to what was mentioned earlier in this Debate, before

  1303
  the Minister of Labour replied, with regard to the import of foreign labour. It is probably true to say that 75 per cent. of the people coming to this country are domestic servants. I know that it is almost impossible in this country to get a cook, or parlourmaid or housemaid. That is admitted on all sides. If you get girls to come to your house they know nothing, and after you have taught them something, they stay, say, for two years, and then leave you and get married or something like that. Undoubtedly, one reason is that the conditions to-day in domestic service do not tempt new recruits. I do not accuse the individual private employer. The conditions there are pretty good, but in the cheap lodging-houses of the country you find bad conditions of employment, and these should be improved. There should be a stricter regulation of hours and of wages.
  I do not think that you could institute a minimum wage for domestic servants. How is it that when these foreign girls come into this country they know how to cook? They are excellent cooks. They know housework from end to end. Surely, it is that the girls in this country have not sufficient opportunity to be trained in domestic science. I would mention in this connection the training centre started by Lady Cuthbert Headlam. I do not know how many girls she has, but I gather that she has no difficulty whatever in placing them in service. In fact it is almost useless to apply for a girl from that training establishment because there is a long waiting list of employers. I appeal to the Minister of Labour to encourage training centres so as to get a greater percentage of skilled domestic servants in this country. It is a very real problem, and, no doubt, in 10 years' time there will be scarcely any domestic helpers available.
  With regard to the older section of the unemployed, it is one of the most pathetic things to see men over 50 out of work, because they know perfectly well that they have no chance of another job anywhere in such areas as Lancashire and the depressed districts. The only way you can help them both bodily and mentally is to find them work on allotments, or, if there is not the land available, they should have somewhere to go, some institute or some form of recreation which they have not now in proper degree.
  1304
  Perhaps to-night I have stressed too much the Lancashire side of the case. One thing that struck me very much was the statement of the Minister of Labour that the reduction in unemployment in the cotton industry from 143,000 to 95,000 was due to persons leaving the industry for other kinds of work, and that the insured population in the cotton industry had fallen from 518,000 to 408,000. That does not apply to only one industry. It is similar in the coal industry. The fall in the number employed in our basic industries of steel, cotton and coal is very serious. It means that more people are going into the distributive trades, which are not productive in the same sense as the basic trades. I hope the Government will do everything they can to expand the basic trades, because it was by the basic trades that this country in the past created its wealth.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. Graham White: We all feel that the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) rendered a service in opening a discussion on this subject. Many of us have felt that the Debate was overdue, because there is growing concern in the country over the increasing numbers of the unemployed and a desire to know what the Government have in mind to counteract it. Many of us feel that in this subject of unemployment there is one of the tests of democracy. If democracy is to survive in this or in any other country it will have to give much greater security to the workers and greater equality of opportunity than is afforded by any other system. We feel very anxious about it. It may very well be the case that democracy cannot stand another experience such as that of 1931, unless there is more visible constructive effort made to avoid it, and to contend in advance with the difficulties that may arise.
  I was in complete agreement with what was said by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), when he spoke of the possibility that may arise when the great armaments programme begins to be damped down and to become less active. That consideration is in the minds of a good many who have spoken to-day. We feel that the Government ought to be concentrating upon something that is to take the place of the armaments programme. Up to the present time in the

  1305
  Debate—unless it was the speech of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), who pins his faith to a further dose of Protection—there has not been a single suggestion made of anything which will take the place of the armaments programme when it disappears. The necessity of making some alternative plan is imperative, because when that programme begins to decline, as we hope it may, thre will be an irresistible demand from the country, which no Government will be able to withstand, to put in the place of the expenditure upon armaments constructive works of development for the good of the country.
  No Government will be able to stand out against the plea that will be made: "You have spent so much money upon weapons of destruction; what is to be done in promoting measures for the welfare of the people?" When that time comes, the Government will not have the help that is available from the reduction of interest rates—they could hardly be reduced much below their present level, it will not be possible to devalue this poorer rating again and there will not be so readily available the devices which were available to the Government at the time of the last depression. Therefore, it is necessary that on a much wider and much more searching scale than we have seen, there should be a survey and an estimate of what the country can do to meet the position that will arise. There should be Government co-operation with the local authorities in seeing how capital expenditure by the country, by corporations and by individuals, can at the proper time be devoted in the appropriate way to the public good.
  I should like to make a few observations in regard to the speech of the Minister of Labour. He approached his task with the velocity, the vigour and the mastery of his subject which we have learned to expect from him. He launched upon us facts and figures which our quivering intellects could hardly grasp. He gave us figures which were meant either to charm or to hypnotise us—I hope they were meant to enlighten us—but they came upon us with the rapidity of shots from a machine gun, and I must confess that, for my part, I found difficulty in finding the salient points and features which he wished to convey to the House. He proceeded, as he said, to break up
  1306
  the problem and to analyse it, and by the time the analysis was over I was almost wondering whether there were any unemployed on the register.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that we must dissect the problem before we could relate it to the means of solution. I thought that after the dissection and the analysis had taken place there would be some plan appropriate to all sections of unemployed, married and single, 45 and over. What it all came down to was that there were 1,043,000 individuals, according to the last return, who had been out of work for less than six months, and that 17 per cent., or 279,000 on the register, were the long-term unemployed. Putting his finger on that spot he said that that was where the problem lay. The 279,000 may be part of the problem, and they certainly are part of the problem where the greatest tragedy lies.
  The right hon. Gentleman did throw one crumb of consolation to us when he said that the bar against training for these men was no longer to operate. I was glad to hear that. I immediately applied that statement to the 400 men in my own division who used to earn their living as hand riveters and who, although they are still classified as in the engineering trade, have no chance, even on the record of their past skill and performance, of ever doing anything in the engineering trade again. That is where the tragedy lies. Those men are well capable of doing some work, and if there is no other means of putting them back into employment, we ought to make it a rule that employers in that particular business should have a King's Roll arrangement in operation, whereby when they employ men they should take on a certain number of these older men as well as the others.
  I fortify myself in that suggestion by the statement of Sir William Beveridge, in the last report of the Statutory Committee, in which he pointed out to employers as a whole that the employer who took on a younger man simply because he was a younger man was performing an act which was anti-social, and that it should be recognised as such. That passage in the report should be commended to employers throughout the country. A younger man is more mobile, has no family ties and has greater opportunities for finding a job somewhere else.

  1307
  The 279,000 unemployed were picked out by the Minister as being the problem. He indicated that it was not necessary to think about the 1,043,000 who are temporarily on short term unemployment. It might be a sound argument to say that there is no acute problem if you have a steadily rising level of employment, when there is a probability of getting them back into work, but I suggest that it is a complete fallacy to say that they are not the problem when you have a descending level of employment.
  I find myself in great difficulty in considering the point raised by the Minister. He says that these people are temporarily employed, that at a time when employment is rising it is open to every one to regard himself as temporarily unemployed. Is that the case? I should like someone to explain to me how it is that a man can be described as temporarily unemployed until he has got back to a job. That is the difficulty I found myself in when I tried to follow the argument of the right hon. Gentleman. I was bitterly disappointed when he gave us the impressive catalogue of work which is in hand at the moment, the various schemes of the Post Office, the Electricity Commissioners and the Board of Education, to find that there was not one word about anything being thought of or developed to take the place of the rearmament programme as it reaches its completion.
  Let us remember one fact, which I think is important, and that is that as we go on with our armament campaign the structure of our industry is being more distorted, it is being altered, with the result that the transition when it comes may be more awkward and difficult than is apparent at the present time. We must assume that the Government have not considered its programme further than was indicated by the Prime Minister in reply to a question—a reply quoted by the right hon. Gentleman—that the Government were giving consideration to plans to deal with increasing unemployment, and in that regard were in consultation with local authorities. I would urge the immediate necessity of getting into touch with local authorities; that they should be invited to co-operate with the Government in surveying plans, not of things which they are going to do but of things they would like to do
  1308
  in five or 10 years' time. I would appeal that they should be able to survey these plans, to establish an order of priority in the matter of urgency, the amount of work which they would provide, and, generally, how far they can be expedited.
  I would go further. I would like the Government to reconsider such plans as they may have in contemplation, find out whether some of the plans might be postponed and brought into operation at the right moment. It is not only necessary to plan in advance if you are to soften the effects of the coming slump; you must be able to put work into operation before the slump reaches the country in its full severity. If we wait until that stage, local authorities and people generally will be under the grip of the old fallacy that you must spend money when times are prosperous but when times are bad you must keep what little you have in your pocket. I think it is the duty of economic statesmanship in this country to make steady and thoroughgoing plans to bring into the field of manoeuvre at the right moment all the economic resources of which the country is capable.
  9.12 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: The Debate has covered a very wide field, and I am tempted by the opportunity to do what I have not done for more than two years that is, to present some observations to the House of Commons. The older one gets, and the longer one sits in this House as a back bench Member, the less tempted, I find, is one to present any observations to the House, and I am not hopeful that the Government will give more sympathetic attention to what I have to say than they have done in the past. There is, however, this encouraging fact, which all of us have experienced in different ways, that although the suggestions and considerations which are put before successive Governments may not immediately be taken up by the Government, time passes, and what was the epigram, the paradox, of one period becomes the truism of four or five years hence; and the Government, having first turned it down, then carry out the very policy which we ventured to put before them. We are, as it were, a kind of moving platform. We must remember that everything is relevant, that time passes, and that changes are, in fact, made.

  1309
  The Minister of Labour, in his very comprehensive speech this afternoon, gave us a great number of details which, like the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White), I found it difficult to grasp in the way they were presented. I am an old-fashioned person. I do not like non-stop revues. I like the old legitimate drama, with construction and a theme. You know what it is all about. It starts in Act I and ends in Act III. As far as I could ascertain the Minister's views, he did not really think there was any problem about which anything could be done; he thought that in the process of the analysis he gave to-day he had, as it were, destroyed the problem which was presented to him. That is a superficial view to take of these matters, and I am afraid I must say so.
  The Debate has been carried on under the shadow of much more pressing problems. To-morrow there will be a Debate which to-day fills all our minds; yet, perhaps it is not inappropriate that these two Debates should follow one upon the other, for there is a close association between the economic problems from which the world is suffering and the political situation in which it now finds itself. Perhaps the only great contribution which the democracies can make today is to show that, at any rate, their system of government is capable of dealing with these problems and making some solution to them in their own internal affairs, and is as capable of any other form of government of grappling boldly with them.
  The Minister of Labour has told us in effect, that there is no problem, and nothing to worry about; but the House is still uncertain. I have listened to most of the Debate and as far as I can gather only two main solutions have been put forward. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), consistent with his whole political philosophy, told us that what is wanted is more Protection. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), with curious inconsistency, I think, told us that what is wanted is more Free Trade. I listen always with great interest to the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman and other Members of his party. They seem to hold such a curious combination of views; half of them put forward views which would commend themselves to Karl Marx, and the other
  1310
  half put forward views which would be equally commendable to Mr. Cobden. One cannot really say to-day that a return to the free, laissez faire economy of 1850 would be a solution to the problems of the world. We all know that tariffs, quotas and other restrictions on world trade are part of the problem; but how have they arisen? They have arisen because of the much deeper social problems which present themselves behind any form of economy, whether capitalist or collectivist. It is a very remarkable fact that the only collectivist society in the world is not a Free Trade society. There is no solution along the lines of the orthodox laissez faire system. If it is said that it is tariffs and quotas that interfere with the overworking of the system, what about the social services, what about the pinning of wages, what about trade union activities? If one is to go back, as a solution, to the old self-equalising economy which was the whole principle of Liberalism and laissez faire, then one has to remove not merely trade restrictions, quotas and tariffs, but everything which impinges upon the automatic, stabilising economy. Nobody, in point of fact, can do that. Therefore, we have to face a situation which we all know to be a novel one and we have to make it our main object to recognise that many of these controversies of the past are obsolete, that we are faced with entirely new problems, and that we can deal with them only if we are prepared to regard them de novo.
  The problem of unemployment is only half the problem in this country to-day. If unemployment were the whole problem, I should feel much happier about it. But what about the problem of under-employment and the problem of poverty? Can anybody read the objective statements made by those who have studied these questions—Sir John Orr and all that he has done, Mr. Rowntree and all his work—and not realise that, in addition to the problem of unemployment, there is the problem of millions of people who are not living on the standard of life which ought to be provided by a modern society? That is a problem which is just as important as that of the men who are temporarily out of work and the men who are working short time. Unemployment is not in itself a harmful thing. When it is unemployment of the upper classes it is called leisure. The real problem is that of not

  1311
  having enough money. That is a great problem of which the Minister, in his review to-day, did not seem to have any conception. It is a problem which is intimately related with the monetary and political solution of our difficulties.
  It would take too long for me to give any comprehensive statement of what seem to me to be the lines on which these questions might be approached, but I should like to put forward one or two considerations which I would like His Majesty's Government and the House to take into account. What is the object which we have in view? It is the bringing about of a stable economy at the highest possible level of production. One can get stability at a low level, and that indeed one has in a very primitive society; but in order to avoid successive slumps and booms, and all the pressure on the economic system which has always operated in the past, even in the heyday, as it were, one has to get stability at the highest possible level of production.
  In connection with that, there are several factors. There is, first, the industrial factor. Can we organise our industries by the most efficient technical method in order to get, first, a high level of production, and then, an accurate forecasting of market probabilities, which means, after all, the prevention or avoidance of successive slumps and booms. The Government have done something in that direction during the last 10 years. There has been Protection and a certain amount of reorganisation in many industries. Are we going on with that process? What is going to happen in the cotton industry and the coal industry? Are we going to set about-making those industries as efficient instruments of production and distribution as we can, without regard for vested interests and other considerations? Are we always, in our discussions, to come up against as obsolete an argument as Free Trade and Protection, and the old argument between private enterprise and Socialism, as though the problem before this country were whether, suddenly, we should switch over to a complete collectivist system or whether we should maintain a complete system of private enterprise? While these Debates are going on in the House, what is, in fact, happening? We are moving into a society which is neither capitalist in the
  1312
  old sense nor collectivist. Has anybody taken the trouble to make a calculation of the total production of goods and services in this country to-day, and into what categories of control they fall—how much under national activity, how much under municipal activity, how much under public corporations operating under statutory monopoly rights, how much under what are called public utility control?
  In point of fact, we are operating, and are likely to operate, a mixed system ranging from complete nationalised enterprise on the one hand, and activities where the old type of private competitive system operates, on the other hand. If we are wise, we shall operate those classes and categories of production and control purely with regard to technical considerations and what seems, in each particular class of activity, to be likely to give the best results. I believe there is an increasingly important contribution which private competitive enterprise can make in new industry and in all those enterprises where great risks are taken; but I believe equally that for the purpose? of obtaining stability, order and cooperation in the new society, we shall have to place the organisation of the great basic industries and great basic utility services under some form of public control. That is the first object at which we should aim—the organisation of the production of goods and services upon the most effective methods open to us.
  What is the second? The operation of finance as the servant and not the master of industry. What progress have we made here? The Bank of England still unreformed, still under the control, if I may say so without offence, of individuals who have made almost every possible mistake in the last few years, and still, I think, without any conception of what is the real problem of a modern up-to-date society. Its real problem is not under-saving, it is over-saving. Its real problem to-day is the operation of the money system in such a way that money, in its function as a store of value, is not allowed to dominate and wreck the whole economy. Money as a medium of exchange, money as a medium of value—yes; but money as a store of value is the great danger which faces a modern, highly technical, organised society to-day. What do I mean by that? The first purpose of monetary policy should be the

  1313
  equation of savings and investment. There is distributed to-day, or made available in the course of production by way of raw materials, salaries, wages, interest and profit, sufficient purchasing power to buy back all the goods produced on the market. We know that. And yet there is a lag. There is a lag when that which is daily withheld, that part of wages or salaries or profits which is not spent every day, does not re-enter the market in the shape of capital investment at the same rate as that which is withheld. Capital investment by a government can do a great deal but it cannot do everything.
  What is the solution of this apparent paradox to-day? You have got a great capital expenditure by the Government on armaments, far greater than any of us would have dared to suggest in times past on forms of social capital enterprise. And yet this is not effective in producing a great improvement in our conditions because the deflationary effect of the European conditions which justify the armaments is greater than the inflationary effect of the armaments themselves. More harm is done by the lack of peace in the state of Europe and by the withholding of investment by private people and public corporations than by the total amount of new investment pushed on the market by the armaments policy. That is only to recognise that there are psychological as well as technical considerations to be taken into account. But I would still say that the operation of the capital market, the operation of the finance system must be as the servant of industry for the purpose of equating savings and investments, for the purpose of so operating the system as to make it as nearly balanced as possible from the financial and monetary point of view.
  Lastly, there is a consideration equally important from the humanitarian and technical point of view, and that is the raising of consuming power in this country. What is the real defence against undue slumps, and what is the real solution of over-saving? It is to spend more. Why in this country we have not been subjected to the pressure that the people in the United States were subjected to in the slumps is just because we have had this social system. To the extent that we have our health
  1314
  insurances and our social insurance, to that extent we have avoided the great depths of depression which have overpowered much richer countries, much better equipped countries technically, such as the United States. What is the lesson to learn from that? To continue that process, to raise this standard and to adopt towards it quite new conceptions of what might be done. I think I have used the illustration once before in this House. What a strange thing it would be to a visitor from another planet who came and looked at this country and said, "Yes, you have all these services. You have all these valuable things which are done for the people. You educate your children free, but you do not feed them. Why do you educate them? Well, because in Victorian times it was always regarded as respectable to give somebody free something which they did not particularly want. But to give a man food, to give him a house—oh no, that pauperises him"; though how you can pauperise people who are already poor I have never been able to understand.
  There is, I say in all seriousness, one of the greatest lines of stabilisation open to us both from the humanitarian and from the technical point of view, and that is the increase in the general standard of living, the distribution of wealth, power to consume, among the great mass of people. And again you should have a policy which is not based on vested interests, which is prepared to take quite new standards of distribution and new methods. You charge for water not on the amount of water you consume but on the rateable value. Should you not distribute milk in the same way? Why are we to say that because a thing has once been done it is respectable, but to extend it is revolutionary? I would beg the Government to consider all these methods. I recognise the great advance we have made in what we think possible to-day, compared with what was thought possible eight or 10 years ago. We have made great advance in industrial organisation, we have made great advance in the conception of the use of financial policy as a means in Government hands, and I would plead for this further recognition of the possibilities of purchasing power.
  I am afraid that considerations such as those I have tried to define and describe are difficult to present in a short

  1315
  time, and may seem sometimes remote from immediate political issues, but is not this House sometimes remote from what the people are thinking and wishing? What do they care, if I may say so with equal respect to both sets of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, who sit on that bench and who on this? It matters very little to them. Their names have for a few years, hardly for more than a decade, passed rapidly in and out—they are far less well known than film stars; you will never get such fame from the Cabinet as you get from Hollywood today. They go after a few years to another Chamber where, disguised under some remote and unknown name, they finally disappear into a political limbo. Who cares? Not the democracy. Right hon. Gentlemen themselves do not care. We are here to serve the public, which is really rather bored with all our political conventions, but is interested in the presentation of any mechanism or method that may seem to them to give them what they want. They are bored with the old terms of Private Enterprise and Socialism, Protection and Free Trade, but they are interested in any movement that will give them what they believe can, by energy and enterprise and effort, and intellectual and mental power, be done with the vast resources, technical and scientific, that we have at our command. And sooner or later either this democracy will die, either it will pass away and seek, vainly enough perhaps, its instrument in some other method of government hostile to all our notions, and to most of us horrible to contemplate; or sooner or later, whether it is hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House or, as I hope and believe, the party to which I belong, we shall be able to lead this country steadily, not by revolutionary but still by progressive and ambitious means, into the realisation of the new society which is open there for us to take if we have the courage to seize the opportunities that are ready for us to-day.
  9.35 p.m.
  Mr. W. Joseph Stewart: I have listened with interest but with a great deal of apprehension to this Debate. Many of the speeches have suggested the inevitability of a trade slump. Living in a Special Area where there are already tens of thousands of working-people who have been out of work for periods varying from
  1316
  a year up to 10 years, I dare not visualise the condition of things which would ensue if, in the near future, still more men were thrown out of employment. Many suggestions have been made as to the methods which ought to be adopted to meet this slump if it comes. Trade agreements with other nations and the removal of trade barriers have been advocated. In the time at my disposal tonight I cannot go into those proposals but I would suggest, in passing, that had the Government of the day dealt with the distribution and location of industry at the proper time, many of the Special Areas would not be in their present condition.
  I have gone into the returns made by the Board of Trade as the result of a survey covering the years 1932 to 1936. During those years there were established in this country 2,700 new factories providing employment at their inception for 200,000 people, and later for 250,000. Of the employment thus provided two-fifths is in Greater London, about one-fifth in North-West England, one-sixth in the Midlands and one-eighth in North-East England. Greater London got 1,190 new factories employing 95,250 people. North-East England got 218 new factories employing 31,350 people. In 1935 there were established in Greater London 213 new factories giving employment to 19,650 people. In 1936, in the same area, 261 new factories were established giving employment to 20,050. Thus in two years 474 new factories were established in Greater London giving employment to 39,700 people. In 1935, in Durham, Northumberland and the North Riding of Yorkshire five new factories were established giving employment to 2,450 persons. In 1936 in the same area 16 new factories were established employing 4,600 persons, or a total of 21 factories against 474 in Greater London, and a total employment found of 7,050 persons against 39,700 persons in the Greater London area. Unemployment in the Special Areas is a very serious problem. We in Durham have been vexed with this problem for a number of years, and little has been done by the Ministry of Labour in finding work for our vast army of unemployed people. In October, 1937, in the administrative county of Durham we had 47,933 persons unemployed or 18.6 per cent. of the in-

  1317
  sured population. On Tyneside, which was one of the largest industrial areas in the country, at the same period there were 54,664 unemployed, or 20.8 of the insured population compared with an average for England and Wales of 10.1.
  The right hon. Gentleman gave us figures this afternoon. They were figures which, I acknowledge, I could not grasp. They were given out too quickly and one could not follow the right hon. Gentleman but in his peroration he did suggest that things were infinitely better all round now than they had been for a number of years. In the Bishop Auckland area of Durham, an area on which we have repeatedly asked the right hon. Gentleman to focus his attention, there are today 32.7 of the insured population unemployed. In the Shildon area there are 33.7 unemployed and in Jarrow and Hebburn 26 per cent. In South Shields, in October, 1937, we had 27.7 per cent. of the insured population unemployed and to-day there are 31.9 unemployed. If a degree of prosperity has reached the country will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is happening as far as South Shields is concerned. In Sunderland in October last year there was a percentage of unemployment of 23.1. To-day it is 26.1. If this prosperity exists, why should there be a rising figure of unemployment in those centres? Much has been said about the trading estates established in the Special Areas.
  The idea is in the mind of certain people that those trading estates will meet the problem of the Special Areas to an appreciable extent. I agree that these estates may find employment for a large number of young people—some of whom, it has been suggested in the Press in recent days, have been exploited by employers of labour in the case of a certain trading estate in Durham. But while young people may be employed in these trading estates and in the light industries that are being introduced, very little employment has been found for the adult unemployed men in the county. In the near future it will become necessary to deal with that special problem in Durham county. I have gone through some returns submitted by the Commissioner for the Special Areas dealing with the decrease of unemployment in 1937. His words were, that in Durham, on Tyneside, and in South Wales, of the decrease in unemployment, 55 per cent. took place in the
  1318
  18–34 age group, while 8.7 per cent. in Durham and on Tyneside and 6.5 per cent. in South Wales took place among the men aged 55 years and over. I would ask whoever is to reply for the Government what policy they have to deal with the man who has reached the age of 50 or 55 and who is unemployable, as far as the employers are concerned. Surely that is a problem that must be faced up to by the Government of the day. In Durham we have over 36,000 men who have not been employed for over a year, 10,000 who have not been employed for over five years, and others who have not been employed for eight, nine, or 10 years. What do the Government intend to do to meet this situation, so as to help an industrial county which is distressed through no fault of its own?
  Unemployment in Durham, as in other Special Areas, is a very serious problem, especially for those who are responsible for the social services and for Poor Law relief. We have in Durham to-day, in spite of all the prosperity that has come through this increase in trade and this enormous expenditure upon armaments, 51,956 persons in receipt of Poor Law relief, at a weekly cost of £17,940 and at a cost per year of £937,880. There is another question which I would like the right hon. Gentleman to answer. In Durham to-day we have of able-bodied cases and of persons chargeable 1,270, at a cost per week to the local ratepayers of £479 and at a cost per year of £24,908. Surely that ought to be a charge on the National Exchequer and not on the local ratepayers. We have this huge total of £962,788 per year spent on Poor Law purposes. Durham will have to spend in 1938 for Poor Law purposes to maintain ordinary cases and people who have been rejected by the Employment Exchanges in the county £1,619,728, equal to a rate in the pound for Poor Law purposes of 10s. 5d. I would ask the Government, in all that they do, to take into consideration the conditions prevailing in the Special Areas in this country, and especially to focus their attention upon the conditions which prevail to-day in Durham County.
  9.50 p.m.
  Mr. Shinwell: It is significant that during the whole of these Debates not a single attempt has been made to challenge the case presented by my right hon.

  1319
  Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). On the contrary, he has received a large measure of support from the opposite benches. We have heard during the proceedings statements of the most dolful character from several hon. Members. The air has been charged with lamentations, and it now appears that gloomy predictions are no longer confined to this side of the House. We had, for example, a speech delivered by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), who declared that we were living, not in a boom period, but in a period of crisis, and that a trade decline had definitely set in. He appealed to the Government not to deny it, and he predicted bad Budgets in the future. These were very grave statements to make, but if the hon. Member for East Aberdeen were in his place, I would remind him that when his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, a few months ago, that there was no ground for asserting an approaching trade decline, he was one of those who applauded the right hon. Gentleman, and he was among those on the opposite benches who derided hon. Members on this side when they declared that what is now described as a trade recession had definitely appeared. It is valuable to reach common agreement, at least on that head.
  The pity is that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour did not himself appreciate the possibilities that are latent in the trade outlook for the future. He made a speech that was both amazing and alarming. It was amazing because I think it was in a large measure irrelevant to the subject at issue; it was alarming because it appeared to betray no appreciation of the immensity of the problem. As a speech it was an excellent dissertation on arithmetic, but it was no contribution to a solution of the problem that we are reviewing to-day. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was concerned about an analysis of the nature of unemployment and that that was essential before he proceeded to undertake planning. It occurs to me to ask him whether this is the first attempt at an analysis of this kind. If it is, it is somewhat belated. On the other hand, if his Department have occupied themselves in recent months with the analysis to which he referred, then we are justified in asking him whether that analysis will lead to any
  1320
  plan, otherwise the analysis which he indulged in this afternoon is of no value at all.
  The right hon. Gentleman declared that figures used en masse bred illusions. I do not know whether that was intended to be condemnatory of what was said by my right hon. Friend. Again I would remind him that while it is true that figures breed illusion, when the figures of unemployment are reduced by 50,000 or 100,000 he takes the credit. Then there is no illusion. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that capital works, for which several hon. Members have asked in the course of the Debate, cannot be regarded as a solution for unemployment, particularly in the textile industry. No hon. Member on this side has asserted that capital works can provide a complete solution, but whether they can or not, if that is the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, will he be good enough to tell the House whether he has any alternative solution? After all, we are concerned with solutions and not with any political doctrine or partisanship. If the right hon. Gentleman can furnish a solution other than that presented by this side of the House, we shall be only too glad to hear what he has to say. Apparanetly, however, he has no solution.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that the fluctuations which have occurred in recent months were due to factors outside the Government's control. That was strange language. It reminded me of our old friend, "world economic causes." When a Labour Government are in office they are primarily responsible for unemployment and trade fluctuations, but, lo and behold, it comes to pass—the right hon. Gentleman will understand that language—that when a National Government comes to power with the right hon. Gentleman at the helm at the Ministry of Labour, world economic causes are brought in to soften the blow. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that a vast amount of local work was on hand, and he furnished details into which I need not enter. We have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the figures he suggested. He added that there is also a vast expenditure on armaments. He made these statements presumably to indicate that conditions were not quite so bad as we had represented them to be, and that something was being done. Is it not

  1321
  Strange that, in spite of this vast expenditure on national and local production, there should be at this time 1,800,000 persons out of work?
  Clearly the conclusion to which we are irresistibly driven is that, in spite of vast expenditure of this kind, there is no solution for either the unemployment or the trade problems confronting the country. The right hon. Gentleman said something about a boom in engineering and appeared to take credit for it, and yet there are 39,000 unemployed in that industry. It is a strange condition of things to speak of a boom when there are so many unemployed in that industry, when one might have expected complete absorption. The right hon. Gentleman made one valuable admission when he said that there had been a recession in employment in the last few months. I believe that that is the first time the right hon. Gentleman has been ready to concede that fluctuations in an upward direction had occurred. He went on to say that he regarded it as a temporary slackening, and that it was not to be regarded as permanent, but he gave no reasons. How does he know that it is a temporary slackening? Is it because of the proposed new armament programme of the Government? Is the right hon. Gentleman relying solely upon armament production in order to arrest the decline in employment? If that is so, we are entitled to ask him the question, which has already been addressed to him by several hon. Members—what is to happen when the armaments programme, both old and proposed, has come to its end? On that issue the right hon. Gentleman has not ventured to offer any observations.
  The right hon. Gentleman fails to detect certain tendencies operating in our national industries. For example, he said little or nothing about the losses in our export trade. As the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who represents the Board of Trade is to follow me, I should like to present him with a set of figures which bear on this problem. In the coal industry, while our exports in 1929 were 64,000,000 tons, in 1936 they fell to 37,000,000. In 1937 there was an increase to 43,000,000, but the fact from which we cannot escape is that there are still 21,000,000 tons less exported than in 1929. In a time of abnormal world demand—that is the significant factor in the
  1322
  situation—our coal exports have shrunk by one-third since 1929. That gives us something to think about, and I should like to ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to indicate whether the Government have addressed themselves to this problem. There is much we can say about it, but I content myself with stating the unchallengeable facts and to ask whether the Government have appreciated what this problem denotes.
  I come to textiles and will give the figures for the cotton industry. In 1929 textiles accounted for 31 per cent. of our total exports. In 1936 they fell to 27.6 per cent., and in 1937 to 26.2 per cent. That is the reason why there are so many unemployed in the textile industry. Have the Government addressed themselves to that problem? Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman indicate what the Government intend to do? I come to the question of shipbuilding, one of the most important of our national industries. Here I shall not rely on any views of mine but will quote from a well known Conservative newspaper, the "Evening Standard." As recently as yesterday the City Editor, addressing himself to the subject of shipbuilding, used these words:
  "In 1929 this country was building 460,000 tons of shipping for foreign owners out of a total construction of 1,560,000 tons. To-day the figure is less than 90,000 tons out of a total of 1,200,000."
  There is something more to be said. In Germany nearly half the total tonnage being built is for foreign owners. That is unlike the situation in this country. There was a time when we almost monopolised the building of merchant vessels, but that monopoly has disappeared. There is another factor in the situation. Because of frozen currencies we are building more ships abroad. I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether we can afford to allow this to go on much longer? Last, but not least, in relation to shipbuilding I would remind the House that more than one-third of the total tonnage produced is naval construction. I regard that as a most serious situation.
  Now I pass to what we on these benches regard as the most alarming tendency of all, the ratio of employment to the volume of industrial production. During this Debate I have heard a great deal from hon. Members in all quarters of the House on the causes of the problem. Something has been said about the need for a new

  1323
  monetary policy. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) argued that in our negotiations with the United States of America we must take care to correct the adverse balance of trade between the two countries. He argued that we must raise our tariffs because in the future we could not rely upon an abundance of exports. He also urged that we ought to cut down imports. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen submitted that in our negotiations with the United States of America we should urge upon that country the joint utilisation of our gold resources, and advocated greater inflation.
  All these may be useful steps towards the solution of the trading problem, but unless we are prepared to deal with the problem of industrial production there is no hope of reducing unemployment in this country to a reasonable level, much less of solving the problem altogether. For example, in the steel industry the proportion of tons produced to persons employed was 5.6 in 1929, but in 1937 had risen to 7. Surely that is a serious situation. In the pig-iron industry the output per person employed in 1929 was 32 tons and in 1936–37 was 47 tons. Put in another form, in 1929 618,970 tons were produced and in 1936–37 681,000 tons, but the numbers employed were reduced from 19,000 to 14,000. Those are significant facts. In the latest report of the Commissioner for the Special Areas there is this reference to shipbuilding:
  "It is evident that the increase in employment is not nearly in proportion to the increase in tonnage."
  Anyone familiar with shipbuilding is only too well aware of that fact. Fewer men are being employed. The building of ships is being expedited. Whereas some years ago it took nine months to produce a vessel of 6,000 to 7,000 tons it can now be built in four months. The introduction of welding instead of riveting has displaced an enormous amount of labour in that industry, and, what is more significant, there is no hope of its absorption in the shipbuilding industry. The volume of industrial production has increased from a figure of 108.5 in 1929 to 133.1 in 1937, yet the numbers unemployed in 1929 were 1,344,000 as against 1,664,000 in 1937. In other words, unemployment has increased by 500,000 since 1929, while industrial production is up by 24 per cent.
  1324
  In face of these facts, which are unanswerable, we have to consider this problem from somewhat different angles. I have indicated one or two tendencies in support of what my right hon. Friend said about the decline in trade. It has been understood for a long time that shipping freights are an excellent indication of the state of trade and trade prospects. The Liverpool Shipowners' Association reports that freights declined by 7 per cent. in the last three months of 1937, and they say that although the situation was not quite as bad in 1937 as in previous years, yet if the position is analysed from the point of view of the future the grounds for satisfaction are by no means apparent. Those are significant words for such an Association to use. In the banking supplement to the "Manchester Guardian" I observe the following language:
  "Prices are falling, business is slackening and unemployment is rising, but bank lendings are still expanding, and this movement merely conforms to the views advanced in these columns last September that the trend of advances always lags behind the trend of business."
  What are we to deduce from those figures? Surely it is that in spite of all the efforts made by the banking fraternity and capitalist industry in general to bolster up the present system all the indications are that a definite trade recession has set in.
  Now I come to the conclusions which this party have reached. I listened with some interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. H. Macmillan). It contained much to be found in the Labour party's policy. At the same time, he wanted the best of both worlds. While he was reluctant to free himself from the shackles of private enterprise he was seeking the creation of a new social order. I appeal to him not to be faint-hearted. The conclusions which he has reached will drive him irresistibly into the direction of accepting the full policy of the Labour party. He referred to the difficulties of the transitional period from unfettered private enterprise to the collective system. He did not mention those terms, but I will do so for him. A transitional period is always difficult. The situation will become more difficult, but the greater the difficulty the more we are impelled to the conclusion that nothing short of complete reorganisation on national lines will suffice. He urged a

  1325
  policy which seemed to fit in with the policy of this party when he said that we ought to assert a greater measure of control over monetary policy, and that we should seek to raise purchasing power. He referred to inequalities in the distribution of wealth; all very fine phrases, common to Labour party platforms. Surely, he will see that if the problem about which he is so anxious is to be solved he must be prepared—I give him credit for great sincerity—to accept a much larger measure of national control.
  I wish to submit to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who will reply on the Debate certain considerations to which I hope he will address himself. I hope that he will advise hon. Members as to the course now being taken by the Government in the Anglo-American trade negotiations. I ask that advisedly because I hope that, in the process of those negotiations, the Government will not confine themselves merely to trade matters. If the negotiations are to be simply for correcting the adverse balance of trade, raising or lowering tariffs, or manipulating the most-favoured-nation clause, and all the rest of it, they will be futile. If His Majesty's Government are anxious for collaboration with the United States Government in promoting economic appeasement and in taking the lead among the nations of the world, the negotiations will be valuable. The influence of both countries is as great today as ever it was. I dare say. I say that with great sincerity. I hope that they will use that influence and will take the initiative.
  I thought the hon. Member for Stockton decried what he described as the laissez faire attitude of the Members of this party, but this party is not essentially a Free Trade party. On the other hand, we are not wedded to tariff reform. We stand for a scientific regulation of industry and for a modification of the existing tariff system where modification is found to be necessary. Where trade barriers cause restriction in trade, a possibility which will no doubt be admitted even by those who espouse the cause of tariff reform, and cause fluctuations in employment, modification must ensue. In short, if we are to engage in conversations with other countries, they must not be upon an orthodox basis. Orthodoxy in trade matters is as dead as
  1326
  mutton. In that respect I agree with the hon. Member that we must make a new approach and must look at these matters from a new angle.
  I have very little hope that the Government will respond to our appeal, particularly in view of the mediaeval doctrines that were referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spark-brook. Therefore, I appeal to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to give the House an assurance that the negotiations will be expedited, and that the basis of those negotiations will be comprehensive in character and not confined to trifling questions affecting the lowering or raising of tariff barriers. I should like also to ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to address himself to the report recently issued by M. Van Zeeland. I am not prepared to say that hon. and right hon. Members on this side are wedded to every word of that report. There is a great deal in it to which we would take exception. But, on the other hand, there is much in it, and more particularly in the intentions underlying the report, to which we should be very ready to give our assent. The Government cannot afford to ignore the implications of M. Van Zeeland's Report. To set it aside as they appear to be doing is to render to this country, and, indeed, to the world, a grave disservice.
  In conclusion I want to address myself to what I regard—perhaps I speak only for myself, though I hope I speak for hon. Members in all quarters of the House—as a fundamental question. Hon. Members will agree that sooner or later the armaments programme will come to its end—the sooner the better. It may be a year, two years, or three years. But that programme has got to be paid for; large sums have to be expended in the course of its operation. We must consider what the effect of that expenditure is going to be, not alone on our trade prospects, but on our social prospects and on the plans, if there be such plans, that the Government have in contemplation for dealing with the situation. In short, we have to consider the effect of taxation on our economic, social and general trade prospects.
  How is that expenditure to be met' It can be met in one of two ways, or, perhaps, in both ways. It can be met by direct taxation on a higher level. I

  1327
  hope I am not indulging in heresy when I say that, to the extent to which you increase direct taxation, it may well be that you exhaust, I will not say the savings of wealthy persons, because it seems to me, from the figures I have seen, that their savings are rapidly reaching exhaustion, but you exhaust the reserves of industrial companies in this country; and, to the extent to which you exhaust those reserves, you make it impossible for them to be used for future industrial investment. That is a serious prospect, and it can only be met in one of two ways—either by indirect taxation, to which I will refer in a moment, or by Government investment and the use of Government funds. I imagine that, in the situation that we envisage, the Government will not be in a position to utilise Government finance for these purposes, and, therefore, we are left with the sole alternative of indirect taxation.
  What is to be the effect of increasing indirect taxation? It is bad enough now How will you meet the claim of the hon. Member for Stockton for increased purchasing power—the claim that we have been making for several years now—if there is to be more indirect taxation? The social services will be arrested which means less work, not more—fewer public and capital works instead of more. We have, therefore, to consider how the Government are going to meet the situation that is bound to arise. I hope the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will indicate, not in detail, but broadly, whether the Government have any ideas on these matters. We are entitled to say that, in spite of all the facts and the obvious tendencies, the economic trends. the Government appear helpless, drifting along without a semblance of a plan. What are they waiting for? Is it war? Is that the way out for them? But perhaps there will be no war, for the Government's objective is peace—and let us hope they succeed. But if there is no war, and the armaments programme comes to its inevitable end, our economic troubles will become greater. So we ask the Government to indicate, in the plainest possible terms, their appreciation of this problem, and their readiness to seek a solution or to do—I hope they will forgive me for what I am about to say—what the majority of people in this country anxiously desire, that they shall have the decency to resign and make way
  1328
  for a Government ready to produce a plan and carry it out. I use these words deliberately.
  In my final words, I put it to hon. Members opposite—I need not put it to my hon. Friends on this side—that those who heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour must agree that the Government have not the faintest appreciation of what is required. The right hon. Gentleman bandies figures around, he talks at random, but, so far as an understanding of the problem was concerned, he completely failed to face up to the position. An hon. Member has said, "We remember 1929." You can say what you please about 1929. You can rake up the dying embers of the past as much as you like. But the country will not rely on the Government because of the past. They are concerned about the present, and, what is even more important, the future. It is upon the Government's appreciation of existing tendencies and what is calculated to happen in the future that they will be judged; and, therefore, I hope that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, if he can, in the absence of a clear indication of a plan from the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour, will indicate that the Government have something to present to this House and the country.
  10.29 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Euan Wallace): The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) began by saying that no one had so far attempted from these benches to answer the case put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). It will be my endeavour, in the time available, to answer the right hon. Gentleman, but I feel that, before I begin on that, I ought perhaps to apologise to those hon. Members who may have thought that this was to be an entirely Ministry of Labour Debate, and that they would find somebody at this Box competent to reply to many of the detailed points raised. By arrangement through the usual channels, it was decided that the Debate should range over a wider field, and I have the authority of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour for saying to those hon. Gentlemen whose speeches he is not in a

  1329
  position to answer to-night, that everyone of them will be carefully noted, that they will be taken up, if necessary, direct with hon. Members, and that there will, of course, be other opportunities for tackling the Minister of Labour during the weeks which are to come.
  I think that the best way to answer the case put forward by the right hon. Gentleman who opened this Debate is to examine our trade position and prospects as they stand at the present moment; and any discussion of that kind must, if it is to be of value to the House and to the country, be viewed against the proper background—which is, I think, that between the end of 1932 and the third quarter of last year the general state of trade and industry in this country changed from one of deep depression to one of considerable prosperity not by any violent fits or starts, but by a continuous and steady increase of industrial activity year by year. The cumulative effect of these changes was that in the year 1937 industrial production in this country was 48 per cent. more than in the year 1932, and 20 per cent. more than in the year 1929, which is, by common agreement, regarded as a sort of high-water mark of the post-war period. All the available statistics show the improved industrial position, and in view of the fact that my right hon. Friend has given the House some statistics this afternoon, I am only going to say that wages have been raised over a large field, dividends have been better, retail sales have improved—
  Mr. Kelly: And wages have gone down.
  Captain Wallace: No, wages have gone up, and postal and railway receipts indicate the general diffusion of better times. The effect of all this has been that we had an employment figure of 11,599,000 last September and that, although it is not actually a record, is within a few hundred of being one. But I am bound to admit—and at a time like this anybody speaking for the Board of Trade must be very frank with the House—that in the last quarter of 1937 an clement of uncertainty began to appear in some industries, where manufacturers found hesitation among buyers in placing orders. This hesitation was more manifest in those trades which produce consumers' goods than in those which produce capital goods, and it was especially
  1330
  observable in some luxury trades like high-powered cars and wireless sets. There was, as certain hon. Members have mentioned this afternoon, a slackening in the woollen and cotton trades. That was partly due to a fall in raw material prices and partly due to the disturbed international situation, of which I shall have something more to say later. But even on the capital goods side private housebuilding declined, and although there was a partial recovery about the end of the year, owing to increased activity in Scotland, I am afraid that housebuilding for private occupation has declined again.
  There was also a slight falling off in the building of factories other than for Government orders, but it is quite probable that, in view of the Government activity in factory building, the people who wanted to build private factories were experiencing difficulty in getting firm dates of delivery of material at prearranged prices. The increase in shipbuilding costs and falling shipping freights have been a sufficient reason to cause some hesitation among shipowners in placing new construction orders.
  I must, however, emphasise again to put the picture in proper perspective, that the falling off has been slight. I do not think it is in any way unfair to refer to it rather as a slowing up in the rate of trade recovery than as a decline or even a standstill. It remains perfectly true, if we take employment as the criterion, that employment in February, 1938, was 20,000 more than it was a year ago and employment in December, 1937, was 200,000 more than it was in December, 1936. It is not possible at the present time—and I think this is an encouraging sign—to point to any one particular cause for such slackening as there has been. The causes vary in different trades; and, speaking generally, the economic conditions in this and in other countries are very different from those which preceded the slump of 1929.
  Let me look for a moment at present conditions in the home market. Most industries, particularly the heavy industries, show no signs of a check. Iron and steel and engineering are working to capacity, and have orders for many months to come. In housing there is a great deal of public work to be undertaken, as the House knows; and I hope and believe that the improved position

  1331
  of steel supply in this country may lead to an increase in the work on factory orders. It is true, of course, that the rearmament programme is making an appreciable contribution to trade and employment, especially in the metal industries and the metal-using industries. It is equally true, and this has some considerable bearing on future policy, that the effect of the rearmament programme will increase.
  At the present moment the high level of production in this country is still, in the main, due to commercial demand for the normal products of industry. The value of our factory production in a normal year is £2,500 millions. If we assume that we are spending our five year programme of £1,500,000,000 on rearmament at a steady rate, and take £300,000,000 as the money spent on rearmament this year, the House will realise that it still represents only a small figure in comparison with the normal commercial output. It is also true that the industries producing consumption goods for the home market have been considerably stimulated by more work and better wages during the last few years.
  If I now turn to the position in the export trade and shipping, it is plain that, as many hon. Members have said, it has to depend very much more on the world situation and upon factors other than economic; indeed, I think, upon the old friend of the hon. Member for Sea-ham, "world economic causes."
  Mr. Shinwell: "World economic causes" is the old friend of the party opposite.
  Captain Wallace: Now the hon. Member tries to pass it on to us but I think he might take his share. Perhaps "world economic causes" are always the prerogative of the people on the Government side of the House rather than the prerogative of those on the Opposition side. Among the interesting speeches made this afternoon I was particularly struck with that of the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), when he said that confidence was the real basis of international trade. It is, of course, profoundly but unfortunately true that political shocks are the greatest enemies of our export trade.
  1332
  It is not possible to exaggerate the effect which conditions in the United States have upon the conditions in this country. Although I do not wish for a moment to minimise the detrimental effect which the recent loss of business confidence in America has had in many directions on our own national economy, it does appear that the amount of goods going into consumption in America is being fairly well maintained, and that the present troubles in America are rather more political than economic. That, I think, we may take on the whole as being to the good.
  The expansion of our export trade during 1937 was largely due to the increased purchasing power of the primary producing countries, and that itself was the result of the rise in commodity prices during the year 1936. There have been two subsequent falls in the level of commodity prices, one in non-ferrous metals and wheat in the spring of last year, which was only a healthy adjustment of a speculative position, and a later one in non-ferrous metals, cotton and wool, due to conditions in the United States and to international tension generally. But in spite of that, commodity prices still remain above the level of the depression years. After all that has been said for years in this House in economic Debates, there is nobody who will deny that that is a good thing. The United States is the largest consumer of raw materials in the world and any improvement in the general economic situation of the United States is of immense benefit to the primary producing countries, and will undoubtedly react favourably in a short period on our own export market. On the whole, it looks as if the primary producing countries, as things are, will be able to maintain their imports at recent levels.
  When we get a little more optimistic and go a step further and consider the possibilities of an expansion of our export trade, that is of course limited by exchange restrictions and import quotas, but I think I can say that provided there is no worsening of the international political situation—at the moment that is a fairly big "if"—and provided also that there is no worsening of internal conditions in foreign countries, and especially in America, there is no reason to anticipate any serious reduction of our exports. On the other hand, any relaxation of the

  1333
  present tension—and it is to that end that the whole of the efforts of His Majesty's Government are devoted—will undoubtedly provide, and I think very quickly provide, some opportunities for expansion.
  Taking all factors into account, it would be unwise to prophesy that 1938 will show the same upward progress as 1937. But let it be clearly understood that a reduction in the rate of progress is a very different thing indeed from an actual economic recession, to use Mr. Roosevelt's word, or to use the more popular and descriptive expression, a slump. While it may be that the curve of trade activity in this country is beginning to flatten out, there are no definite signs that it has taken a downward trend. If it does prove that the position we reached in 1937 cannot be fully maintained in 1938—I hope and believe that will not be so—we have at any rate sound reasons for believing that a decline, if there were one, would be slow and orderly. Let me remind the House that conditions to-day are very different in five respects from those which obtained in 1929: there is no over-speculative position in the Stock market, no over-accumulation of commodity stocks, no great disparity between agricultural and industrial prices, no tightening of credit, and a very much smaller burden of international debt.
  But, although there is no reason to suppose that a depression is imminent, I entirely accept the view of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White), and many other hon. Members, that it is the duty of the Government to take every precaution which they can against the imminence of a slump. I will turn now for a moment to the question of public works as a cure for a slump. There is a popular tendency to exaggerate the effectiveness of public works, and it may interest the House to know that if one takes the 15 years between 1920 and 1935, the average amount of expenditure on public works, either grant-aided or actually undertaken by the Government, was less than 4 per cent. of the annual output of our factories. Everyone will realise that between 1920 and 1935, we had several different sorts of Governments, which pursued the policy of public works with greater or less intensity or discretion. It is a significant fact that
  1334
  during the whole of that period, those public works amounted to only 4 per cent. of our total factory output. Another thing which emerges from the actual experience of public works policy is that we discovered that the expenditure of £1,000,000 per annum on these kinds of works gave employment to 4,000 men. So that to counteract a 5 per cent. increase in the rate of unemployment, say 600,000 persons, one would require schemes costing £150,000,000 a year. As hon. Members know, the United States have gone in for a public works policy on a grand scale. I very much doubt whether they will be inclined to say that the results have come up to their expectations.
  The hon. Member for East Birkenhead, to whom the House always listens with great interest on this and kindred subjects, put forward the idea of closing down, so to speak, in a boom, and delaying the execution of all public works where it could possibly be done until a time when they would be of more value to relieve unemployment. That is absolutely unexceptionable in theory, but I think he would agree that it is extraordinarily difficult to carry out in practice. Public works, whether they are undertaken by the central Government or by local authorities, are presumably bound up with the ordinary development of their policy, and any postponement of public works with which an authority is ready to proceed must, I think, ex hypothesi, be detrimental to its scheme of social services. It is very difficult to say to a man who is going to get employment from some public works scheme of a local authority or the central Government, "No, we will not give you a job now because either you or somebody else may have more need for it at some future date." And, of course, the problem in dealing with this question is to forecast even approximately the date on which a recession will take place. We all hope that it will be never.
  So far as the present Government and its public works policy are concerned the House will recognise that we are to-day in the middle of the most gigantic public works policy which has ever been undertaken by any British Government. It has this very great merit, that it provides skilled and highly paid work for skilled men, and hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House who have sat through our

  1335
  Debates in the last 10 or 12 years on the question of unemployment relief works will know the difficulty of finding a reasonable proportion of skilled work for skilled people who are out of employment. I think one of the most potent bulwarks against a serious slump is industrial reorganisation, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton referred and I must say I was extremely interested to see him being wooed by the hon. Gentleman who spoke last, with an invitation to become a Socialist. The Government policy is to encourage the voluntary reorganisation of industry in every way, and we are now very much better off in that respect than we were in 1929. I was glad that the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Macmillan) expressed his appreciation of the use we have made of our protection policy to assist reorganisation in the steel industry.
  But, as both my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham very rightly said, in the long run the maintenance of prosperity in This country depends on improved international trade. International trade has improved in the last few years, and to that improvement this Government by its policy has made a very substantial contribution. By guaranteeing free entry to a large volume of imports from the Empire and giving preference on much more, it has promoted Empire trade and indirectly stimulated the demands of other parts of the Empire for foreign products. Since this country and the rest of the British Commonwealth of Nations are responsible for 30 per cent. of the international trade of the world it is clear that any improvement which we get here is soon widely distributed over most of the globe. Our policy of making bi-lateral agreements and generalising the advantages by the most-favoured-nation clause, has been approved by M. van Zeeland and adopted by Mr. Roosevelt's administration. Trade agreements have lowered trade barriers for the general good and there is no question of shutting out the foreigner. Our imports last year were valued at over £1,000 millions and of that £624,000,000 came from foreign countries. I wish to say a few words about M. van Zeeland in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for
  1336
  Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). I regret that I cannot amplify the answers which the Prime Minister gave on 2nd February in regard to his mission. We recognise with gratitude the great contribution which he has made, but we cannot proceed further by ourselves. We and the French Government have, undoubtedly, a particular responsibility and it is in conjunction with the French Government that we shall take such further steps as we can.
  Mr. Lansbury: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Prime Minister to tell the House to-morrow what progress has been made in taking action? We were told that the French and British Governments were to consider it. How long do they reckon they will want to consider it?
  Captain Wallace: I will, of course, convey the right hon. Gentleman's request to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Finally, there is the question of the trade negotiations with the United States, which are the most important that have ever been undertaken by them or by us. We have to bear in mind not only the interests of this country but the interests of the Dominions and the rest of the Empire. Since the production of America is in many respects parallel with ours, our interests are also parallel, and the House will realise that there were consequently considerable difficulties in finding a basis of agreement. Those difficulties have been overcome and an agreement is in process of being hammered out. I hope that nobody in the House will have the slightest suspicion that trade interests are to be sacrificed to political considerations. As regards consultation with industry in this country, perhaps hon. Members will look at the answer which the President of the Board of Trade gave yesterday on that subject. We are going to make a trade agreement, and nothing more than a trade agreement is on the tapis at the present moment; but I am sure hon. Members will agree that it is impossible, in present circumstances, to exaggerate the value of anything which will tend to draw this country closer to the other great English-speaking nation across the Atlantic.
  This has been a serious Debate on a serious subject. I have tried to give the House an objective account of our present economic situation. I have not looked

  1337
  for statistics to prove any preconceived theory. I have tried in any deduction I have drawn, to keep in mind the view of the President of the Board of Trade that unqualified pessimism is worse than complacency. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton told us that foreign affairs to-day overshadowed all our deliberations. I agree. The ideals which we are pursuing in the foreign field are, I think, common to the whole House and the whole country. We may disagree about methods but it is certain that the vigour with which and the speed at which we can pursue those ideals, depend entirely upon the economic strength of this country. It is fitting, therefore, that on the day before the Prime Minister intends to lay before the House the views of His Majesty's Government on an international situation of great gravity, we should have tried to make a frank examination of the economic foundations on which any foreign policy must ultimately rest.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  FOREIGN POLICY (DOMINIONS).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—
  [Captain Margesson.]
  11.1 p.m.
  Mr. Mander: I rise to call attention to a matter about which I gave notice at Question Time a week or so ago, and that is as to what extent consultation has taken place with the Dominion Governments and whether any agreement has been arrived at with them in connection with the change in foreign policy, as I interpret it, which has taken place. That change may not have been of very recent growth. It is possible that it has been going on for a considerable period, but it was brought to a head, and the facts were brought out with some distinctness, at the time of the resignation of the late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. There has certainly been a profound change of policy, whatever the reasons may be, whether good or bad, since the last General Election. With regard to the
  1338
  Italian negotiations now going on, I understand, from questions that have been answered, that the Dominions are being informed of what is taking place, but that it is not intended to consult them unless something arises in which they are closely concerned. It is the policy with regard to the League of Nations and the Government's attitude towards the League of Nations as concerning the Dominions that I particularly want to raise to-night.
  It is, of course, well known that the Dominions themselves attach enormous importance to their membership of the League of Nations. It gives them a feeling of independence, of distinct and separate status, which they have not had before and which is enormously prized by them. Indeed, it is the case that when the optional Clause was signed by the late Mr. Arthur Henderson and the Dominion representatives at Geneva some years ago, two of the Dominions expressed the view that it was quite competent for disputes between Dominions to be decided by the Permanent Court of International Justice—that shows how far their feeling goes—but that, as a matter of expediency and policy, they desired to submit those disputes to an Empire court. It is my belief that all the British Dominions desire to play their part to the full in the collective system of the League of Nations. Indeed, the British Empire is quite incapable of being defended except as part and parcel of such a system. If it is to be abandoned, then, for example, Australia and New Zealand will have a very poor chance of maintaining their independence, and if the League goes as a result of a change of policy, then, to my mind, the British Empire is certain to go too.
  While the Dominions are perfectly prepared to play their part under the Covenant of the League of Nations, some of them have made it clear that if it is to be the old dog-fight on a purely nationalist basis, they cannot be relied upon so to do, and I think there is a very-strong body of opinion in Canada and South Africa, for example, that would probably desire to remain neutral in any disputes in which the Empire might become involved if it was not part of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Now let me quote certain recent statements by the Press on this subject. I would like first to quote from the "Manchester Guardian."

  1339
  "Reports in some London newspapers that the Dominions have been consulted by the Dominions Office about foreign policy in the present European crisis and that they have given their views are not true. Mr. Mackenzie King, speaking in the Commons at Ottawa yesterday, said that the Canadian Government had not been consulted, but had been kept informed of developments in Europe. Inquiries in London indicate that this applies also to the other Dominions.
  There is resentment in Canadian quarters here about this Press attempt to use the Dominions to buttress the Chamberlain policy. It is pointed out that all the Dominions are members of the League and are bound by the Covenant. A League policy, therefore, would not involve risk of Empire disunity. But if the Home Government departed from a League policy, each Dominion would have to decide its own course of action."
  In a message from the Canberra correspondent of the "Times" on 3rd March there is a statement from Mr. Lyons, the Australian Prime Minister, in which he says:
  "To resolve doubts (Mr. Lyons continued) he had communicated with Mr. Chamberlain and had obtained his authority to state that the United Kingdom Government adhered to the policy enunciated by the Imperial Conference of "1937, and, in particular, that there was no change in principle in the attitude of the United Kingdom Government towards the League of Nations and collective security."
  Another cable on 22nd March from Australia said:
  "The newspapers fairly reflect the cleavage of Australian opinion on the European situation, on which Mr. Lyons, the Prime Minister, is studiously silent."
  I come to the main point I want to make. Mr. Lyons said that on the information given to him there had been no change of foreign policy. I want to ask the Secretary of State not just to tell the House that assurances have been given that there has been no change and that they are all satisfied. I want him to say whether the Dominion Prime Ministers have had the precise words used by the Prime Minister on 22nd February put to them, because I believe that those words, clearly read, can convey but one meaning, and that is a complete abandonment as a working institution of the collective system of the League of Nations. Let me read certain words:
  "I doubt very much whether the League will ever do its best work as long as its members are nominally bound to impose sanctions or to use force in support of obligations."
  1340
  That may be right or wrong but it is a fundamental departure from the Covenant of the League and is quite different from the system as understood by the Dominions and the world at the present time. It is an abandonment, and it is coming to the same position as that taken up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). The Prime Minister went on to say:
  "I would not tear up a single article of it, not even Article 16, in the hope that some day it might be reconstituted in such a form that we might rely upon being able to use those powers for the function for which they were originally intended."
  That is, it is to remain in the Covenant but it is to remain inoperative. We are to regard it as not binding—surely a curious doctrine that if it does not please you at the moment you need not regard any particular international obligation as binding on yourself:
  "But I would have it clearly understood to-day that the League cannot use them and cannot be expected to use them and that the nations which remain in the League must not be saddled with liabilities or risks which they are not prepared to undertake. Nor must other nations expect that the League will provide that security which it was once hoped it would provide."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd February, 1938; col. 228, Vol. 332.]
  That is a nice look-out for some European States which have been looking to the League for that security. He goes on:
  "I believe that if the League would throw off shams and pretences, which everyone sees through—"
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Mander: I want to know what the Dominions think about it. I am not interested in what hon. Members on the other side of the House think; I am thinking of the other ends of the earth, to which some of these remarks may percolate. He said:
  "If the League would throw off shams and pretences, which everyone sees through, and come out with a declaration of what it is prepared to do and can do as a moral force to focus public opinion throughout the world, it would justify itself."
  Some hon. Members cheer that. That may be the correct view, but it has nothing to do with the conception of the Covenant of the League, which all members of it have stood up for up to the present time. The British Government at the last General Election got their great majority on that basis.
  Mr. Amery: I should like to remind the hon. Member of a speech made by General Smuts in which he pointed out that at the Conference table the Dominions and the United States of America would work with the League, but that once the League were regarded as an international war office neither the United States nor the Dominions would have any part in it.
  Mr. Mander: I remember the speech very well. I was present on that occasion and I am certain that General Smuts in using those words was in no way giving support to the doctrine that the League of Nations must become purely a moral force without any sanctions.
  Mr. Amery: In the same speech General Smuts repudiated sanctions also.
  Mr. Mander: I have a clear recollection of the occasion and General Smuts' point was that he was opposed to making the League of Nations a military body with an international police force, but to say that you must never use force in the application of sanctions is in my view to misrepresent the very strong support that General Smuts has always given to the League. It is perfectly clear that we have had from the Prime Minister a declaration that in his view the League should have no physical force behind it, no military sanctions and that in all circumstances it should rely purely on moral force. He went on to suggest that under those conditions it might be possible to invite back Germany and Italy and Japan. He said:
  "It might draw unto itself again some of those who have lost faith in it in the past "—
  Germany lost faith in the League—
  "and the future of the League might be assured for the benefit and salvation of mankind."
  I want to ask whether those words, and the doctrine behind them, have been conveyed to the Dominion Governments. Have they accepted the abandonment of the use of force on behalf of the League, which is implicit in those words? It is of vital importance to know that. We do not want to be told simply that an assurance has been given to the Dominions that there has been no change. There has been a change of a fundamental kind since the last General Election. If those words still stand, and I
  1342
  presume they do, it means a complete abandonment of the whole system of collective security and the League of Nations. I agree that the Prime Minister and the Government still adhere to it as a distant ideal to which we shall attain one day. I am sure they are very sincere about that, but the point is: Is it operative to-day? Clearly, if that is the Government's view, they do not think so.
  In particular, I want to know whether the New Zealand Government, which is wholeheartedly, 100 per cent., behind the Covenant, and the whole Covenant, as they declared in a very admirable memorandum which they submitted a year or two ago—a communication on the reform of the League, where they go for the full application of Article 16 and of every other article—
  Mr. Mabane: Article 19?
  Mr. Mander: I am making my own speech. I should like a specific assurance that the New Zealand Government have accepted this doctrine which I have read out and agree with it. Furthermore, is it conceivable that General Smuts agrees with this new doctrine? I do not accept the version of his speech given by my right hon. Friend opposite. I should like to know whether the South African Government have not simply accepted the assurance given to them but have accepted it on the basis of that statement. I hope that with his usual clarity the right hon. Gentleman will deal with the points I have raised, as I conceive them to be in the highest interests of the British Empire. I have no other object to serve, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us some assurance as to precisely what the Dominions do feel on this extremely important matter.
  11.16 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): I think that the whole House will agree that the closest possible contact should be maintained between the Government of this country and the Governments of the Dominions in regard to international affairs, and that it is the duty of this Government particularly to keep overseas Governments fully informed not only upon international events but on the comments on those events from our diplomatic representatives and on the policy regarding those events of His Majesty's Government in this country. I think we fulfil

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  that duty adequately and to the satisfaction of the Dominions.
  I inquired the other day how many telegrams on the subject of foreign affairs had passed from this Government to Governments overseas in recent years. I discovered that in 1936 no fewer than 258 telegrams had been sent by this Government to each of the Dominion Governments on that matter. In the following year there was an Imperial Conference in London. Dominion Prime Ministers were present here for a great many weeks and communication took place during that time by word of mouth at the Conference Table. Nevertheless, telegraphic communication was necessary for a considerable period of the year, and no fewer than 195 telegrams went from this Government to each of the Governments of the Dominions with regard to foreign affairs. I take this opportunity to give the House that information in order to indicate that at any given moment the Dominion Governments are fully seized of any information which we have in our possession and of our opinions and policies regarding these all-important matters.
  A principle regarding this matter of communication between ourselves and the Dominion Governments on foreign policy was implied in the hon. Gentleman's speech. He rightly suggested that if this Government were contemplating any important change in their foreign policy they should give the Dominions good warning of the contemplated change before it was made public to the world, so as to give the Dominions time to make comments and criticisms and perhaps to attempt to influence us if they felt so disposed. I accept that principle of policy in its entirety, and I think that any Secretary of State for the Dominions to whatever party he belongs would accept that policy and act upon it. Where I quarrel with the hon. Member is in his views regarding the particular case he has raised this evening. He has stated, as he stated in his question the other day, that there has been a recent change of policy on the part of His Majesty's Government in foreign affairs and particularly in regard to its attitude to the League of Nations.
  Mr. Mander: I did not say it was recent; I said it might have taken place over a considerable period.
  Mr. MacDonald: I appreciate that, but the very fact that it has been taking
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  place over a considerable period somewhat modifies the necessity for special communications with the Dominions regarding it in the very recent past. I am going to deal with all these questions before I sit down, but surely it is relevant to emphasise the fact that the statement of this Government's attitude to the League of Nations which was made by the Prime Minister towards the end of last month was not representative of a recent change of policy by His Majesty's Government. I would make three comments on what the hon. Member has said this evening, and what he said the other day at Question Time. The first is that what the Prime Minister said with regard to the League of Nations on 22nd February did not represent any change of policy on the part of this Government. Those views as to the ability of the League, constituted as it is at present, to fulfil all the functions which we hoped it would be able to fulfil, have been held by His Majesty's Government for a very long time.
  Mr. Mander: He did not say so.
  Mr. MacDonald: My first point is that they do not present any recent change of policy by the Government. The second comment I would make is that Ministers representing His Majesty's Government have certainly said so before, and have been giving indications of this policy for a very long time past. It was not the first time that that view of the League as at present constituted had been expressed. The whole question of the reform of the League, as it is called, was raised formally at the Geneva Assembly in the autumn of 1936–18 months ago; and on that occasion my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who was then Foreign Secretary, speaking on behalf of the Government, gave the first indication of the consciousness of the Government that the League as constituted could not carry out its full functions. I will not trouble the House with the whole speech which he made on that occasion, but it contains this sentence:
  "A lack of universality "—
  that is, of membership—
  "has unfortunately been operative to some degree ever since the inception of the League. It has been aggravated by defections in recent years, and the authority of the League

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  has without doubt been greatly impaired by the fact that its pronouncements do not have the weight of universal world opinion."
  That kind of sentiment has been expressed by representatives of this Government from time to time since, until again, in January of this year, the late Foreign Secretary made a more specific statement than he had made 18 months ago, when he merely threw out a suggestion. In January of this year, a whole month before that speech of my right hon. Friend which the hon. Member has quoted, the late Foreign Secretary used words which, although the vocabulary is different, expressed in substance exactly the same sentiments as those expressed by the Prime Minister. This is what he said:
  "There can be no advantage in shutting our eyes to certain events. By the defection of some of its more important members, the League is now faced with the fact that the area of co-operation is restricted and that its ability to fulfil all the functions originally placed upon it is thereby reduced. We must realise that in present circumstances the League is not in a position to do all that it was hoped to do."
  That is a perfectly specific statement. What is in the OFFICIAL REPORT is perfectly consistent with what the then Foreign Secretary said to the League a month beforehand.
  Mr. Mander: Consistent, but not the same.
  Mr. MacDonald: The third comment I would make is that we have been in touch with the Dominions right through the last 18 months, ever since they and we met together at the Geneva Assembly of 1936 and had a complete exchange of views amongst each other as to this matter. That exchange of views has been continued ever since in connection with the meetings of the committee of the League which examined this question. It was continued at the Imperial Conference last year.
  Mr. Mander: On the basis of the speech you have just read out?
  Mr. MacDonald: If the hon. Member will let me make my own speech, as he
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  said he should be allowed by my hon. Friends to make his, I will take his points one by one. It was on the basis of the views which were expressed by the Prime Minister in that speech on 22nd February of this year. There was no need, in fact, to inform the Dominion Governments of our policy, of which they were perfectly well aware beforehand, and had been aware for many months past. Just to show that I am endeavouring to assure the hon. Member completely, let me answer his specific question. He asked whether these very words used at this Box by the Prime Minister were conveyed to the Dominions. The answer to that question is that the whole of that passage regarding the League of Nations was telegraphed immediately in full to every one of the Dominions.
  Mr. Mander: That is what I want to know; that is all.
  Mr. MacDonald: It was telegraphed on the same day that the speech was made. If those words had been any surprise to the Dominions, if in the view of the Dominions they had represented a change of policy, the Dominions would have been the first to indicate to us that that was a matter upon which consultation was required, but the very opposite is the case. If the hon. Member had not interrupted, I was going to give quotations to show that, far from Mr. Lyons being surprised, he had specifically said that this represented no change of policy, either on the part of the United Kingdom Government, or on the part of the Australian Government, and that this very attitude towards the League of Nations represented the attitude of a great many Governments, including Dominion Governments for a considerable period of time past. The views of the New Zealand Government have been as well known as our have been.
  It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

  AUSTRIA (BRITISH VISITORS).
  AUSTRIA (BRITISH VISITORS).
  CHINA (CODE TELEGRAMS).
  CHINA (CODE TELEGRAMS).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (SHIPBUILDING AND SHIP-REPAIRING).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (SHIPBUILDING AND SHIP-REPAIRING).
  AEROPLANE ENGINES (EXPORTS).
  AEROPLANE ENGINES (EXPORTS).
  DRAPERY TRADE (EMPLOYES' WAGES).
  DRAPERY TRADE (EMPLOYES' WAGES).
ROYAL NAVY.
  OFFICERS' MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE.
  OFFICERS' MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE.
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  UNDERGROUND HANGARS.
  UNDERGROUND HANGARS.
  AIRCRAFT APPRENTICES.
  AIRCRAFT APPRENTICES.
  DOCKYARDS (MECHANIC PAINTERS).
  DOCKYARDS (MECHANIC PAINTERS).
  TRANSPORT (THAMES FERRIES).
  TRANSPORT (THAMES FERRIES).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HALIFAX) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (NUNEATON EXTENSION) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Appointment of legally qualified Chairman and Deputy Chairman of Quarter Sessions.
1.—(1) It shall be lawful for His Majesty from time to time on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor, made at the instance of the Court of Quarter Sessions for any county, to appoint a legally qualified person as Chairman and a legally qualified person as Deputy Chairman of that Court of Quarter Sessions.
(2) Where a separate Court of Quarter Sessions is held for any division or part of a county, or a Court of Quarter Sessions for a whole county is held in two or more divisions or parts of the county, the Lord Chancellor may recommend under the foregoing subsection the appointment of a Chairman and a Deputy Chairman of the separate Court of Quarter Sessions for the division or part, or, as the case may be, of the Quarter Sessions held in the division or part, and His Majesty may accordingly appoint such a Chairman and Deputy Chairman.
(3) Any Chairman or Deputy Chairman appointed under this section shall hold his office during good behaviour and shall, by virtue of his office, be a justice of the peace

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for the county for which he is appointed and Chairman or Deputy Chairman, as the case may be, of the Appeal Committee appointed under Section seven of the Summary Jurisdiction and Appeals Act 1933, but he shall not act as Chairman or Deputy Chairman either of the Court of Quarter Sessions or of the Appeal Committee or as a justice of the peace until he has taken the oaths required to be taken by a justice of the peace for the county.
(4) In this section the expression "legally qualified person" means a person who is or has been a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary, a Judge of the Supreme Court, a Railway and Canal Commissioner, or a Judge of a County Court or of a superior court in any part of His Majesty's Dominions, or who is a barrister of not less than seven years' standing having such legal experience as to qualify him in the opinion of the Lord Chancellor to act as Chairman or Deputy Chairman of Quarter Sessions.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM)THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM) had given Notice of an Amendment to leave out subsection (1) and insert:
".—(1) The Court of Quarter Sessions for any county may at any time apply to the Lord Chancellor for the appointment as Chairman or Deputy Chairman of the Court of a person who is or has been a barrister or solicitor of not less than ten years' standing having such legal experience as to qualify him in the opinion of the Lord Chancellor to act as Chairman or Deputy-Chairman of Quarter Sessions, and where such an application has been made A shall be lawful for His Majesty, on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor, to appoint such a Chairman or Deputy-Chairman accordingly:
Provided that, before making any recommendation for an appointment under this section, the Lord Chancellor shall consider any representations which may be made to him with respect thereto by the Court of Quarter Sessions and shall take into account the expediency of recommending where practicable a person residing in or otherwise connected with the county in or for which the Court of Quarter Sessions is held."
LORD CAUTLEY: Before the Lord Chancellor begins, may I point out that an Amendment setting forth an absolutely new subsection (1) to Clause 1 was on the Paper this morning, and the Lord Chancellor, I understand, is about to move it. That new subsection (1) destroys, as far as I can see, some Amendments I have down to the old subsection (1) without providing for them. I wish to ask if the noble and learned Lord can tell me how they can be preserved.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the noble Lord, Lord Cautley, is right and
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that the effect of the proposed Amendment by me will be that, technically, his three Amendments go with the old subsection (1). But I think it would be right to point out that he can easily get over that difficulty by some trivial amendment of his Amendments. Accordingly, I should be quite ready, subject to the ruling of your Lordships, to deal with his Amendments as though they were so amended that they might still operate, supposing that the House thought fit to accept them.
LORD CAUTLEY: That would quite meet my purpose. Perhaps a simpler way would be that I should move an Amendment to the first Amendment by the Lord Chancellor in Clause 1.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: On a point of Order: would it not be possible to adopt in this instance the practice in another place; that is to say, to move only a certain number of words to stand part of the Bill? I cannot help thinking that that would be the simpler course.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The Amendment is at page 1, line 7, to leave out subsection (1) and insert the new words. I think the best method would be that which is suggested by the noble Lord, that I should put the question that the first two lines of the subsection, lines 7 and 8 of page 1, shall stand part of the clause, and that we should take the discussion on that.
LORD CAUTLEY: Might I make this suggestion? If upon the Lord Chancellor's Amendment to insert the new subsection I were to move that the Lord Chancellor might make the appointment, I should get all I want.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I think if the first two lines of the subsection are put then Lord Cautley could move his Amendment as a manuscript Amendment, and we can take the discussion on the first two lines. Therefore the Motion is to leave out subsection (1) down to the words "Lord Chancellor" at the end of the second line.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of my Amendment is to meet, as far as possible, in the opinion of the Government, the various suggestions which were made by noble and learned Lords on the last occasion. The Amendment, as your Lordships will observe,

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gives power to the Court of Quarter Sessions to apply to the Lord Chancellor for the appointment of a Chairman or Deputy Chairman who, in the Amendment, is said to possess certain qualifications—for example, that he has been a barrister or solicitor for not less than ten years—and the Lord Chancellor may appoint such a Chairman or Deputy Chairman accordingly; but it is not the intention of the Government, still less, may I say, is it the intention of the present Lord Chancellor, to do any such thing without having first considered with the greatest care any representations which may be made to him by the Court of Quarter Sessions before the appointment, and without taking into account the expediency of appointing someone who resides in the county and not somebody who, in the old days, would have been described as a carpet-bagger, though that is not the article now, from some other county.
It is thought that as a result of that the suggestions made by noble and learned Lords will then be largely met, though the objection of Lord Cautley, which is to be raised by him in a few minutes, and which makes it essential that every Chairman or Deputy Chairman of Quarter Sessions should be appointed by the Lord Chancellor, will, of course, have to be separately dealt with. Apart from that, the idea is to leave the present Quarter Sessions as they stand, if they desire to be left in that position, and to provide for the appointment of a Chairman and Deputy Chairman by the Lord Chancellor, after very carefully weighing any suggestions that may be made to him by the Quarter Sessions themselves. After that is done there will come into operation the other sections or subsections of the Bill, which will enable, amongst other persons, the Chairmen and Deputy Chairmen, appointed by the Lord Chancellor under these provisions, to exercise the extended jurisdiction which it is hoped many Quarter Sessions of counties will desire to have. It looks a little complicated as it stands, but really it is of the simplest possible character, and it is no more than a desire to carry out those suggestions that I have already named.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, leave out lines 7 and 8.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD CAUTLEY: So far as I am concerned, the Amendment of the Lord Chancellor puts in better language Clause I of the Bill, but the objection that I have is that it still preserves in the Bill the provision that the Quarter Sessions are to decide whether the Bill is to apply to them or not. The Peel Commission having reported that it was essential to lighten the congestion of the High Court of Justice, decided that it was expedient to confer on Quarter Sessions in the counties a very large jurisdiction, but added this provision, that before that could be done provision should be made for the Chairman of a Court of Quarter Sessions in the counties to be a legally qualified lawyer. The extent of this reform is apparent if you look at the Bill. It includes an immense number of crimes hitherto only triable by a Judge of the High Court at Assizes or the Central Criminal Court. It includes bigamy, all sorts of perjury, all sorts of forgery, all sorts of conspiracy, and in fact if this devolution takes place the Criminal Courts, as administered by the Judges of the High Court, will have very little to do.
Therefore one can quite understand the requirement advised by the Peel Commission that provision should be made for the Chairman of Quarter Sessions being a legally qualified person, as provided in this Bill. But, recognising as they did the possible difficulty of finding such persons, they also recommended that he should be paid, in other words, that he should be in very much the same position as a Recorder. I venture to put to your Lordships with all the force that I can that this great reform, necessary for the administration of our public criminal law, is one of public importance, and it should not be made optional to any Quarter Sessions to have it or not as they please. Under the clause as it stands this devolution cannot take place unless a request is made to the Lord Chancellor to appoint a legally qualified person as Chairman under this Bill. As was said with great force by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, on the Second Reading, I think it is an unheard-of thing in this country that any Court should decide whether its jurisdiction should be increased or not. I go further and say that if the Bill is passed in this form it will practically become a dead letter.

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May I point out to the Lord Chancellor one technical difficulty that I see in the wording of the Bill? I do not know by what machinery a Court of Quarter Sessions is to apply to the Lord Chancellor. I put this with some confidence, but not with absolute knowledge, that a Quarter Sessions can only act by the justices in Quarter Sessions assembled. They elect their Chairman, they elect a Chairman of the Appeal Committee or the Rating Committee, and the Chairman so elected Lakes his position as Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions. The Court of Quarter Sessions is undoubtedly a court of record, but is powers are limited to its original jurisdiction or to the jurisdiction that has been given to it by Parliament, and who is to make the requisition I do not understand. A Court of Quarter Sessions is constituted if it has only two magistrates. Can any two magistrates make the requisition? I venture to say that it should be made by a resolution of the justices in Quarter Sessions assembled.
But whoever does it, whether it be done in the way I suggest, or in the way suggested by the Bill, can you imagine any Court voting or passing a resolution that the work it has to perform should be increased? It would have the effect of putting many of them out of action altogether. I can quite see them saying, "Why should we do this? What is the county going to gain by it? We are content as we are. We have been able to get voluntary Chairmen. We are doing very well. Why should we go to this trouble and increase the work to this large extent? We are quite satisfied that these cases that are going to be put upon us should be dealt with by the Assize judge, and we like to see the Assize Judge coming to our county." Very many county magistrates are county councillors, and I can easily imagine their saying: "Why should we pay for this? Why should we saddle the rates with the cost of the salary of a paid Chairman with this extended jurisdiction, when we are getting the work as well done as it can be done by a Judge of the High Court, and paid for by the taxpayer?"
In the Amendment which I shall propose later—I shall not make a further speech—it will be provided that the Lord Chancellor may appoint a Chairman of Quarter sessions and a paid Chairman
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if he pleases. The Lord Chancellor's office is well filled. He has plenty of means of getting information as to the amount of business there is at any particular Court of Quarter Sessions and as to whether it is desirable in the interests of the public that this devolution should be made to that particular Quarter Sessions. He alone would apply to the decision of that question, quite apart from local considerations of any sort, solely the question of the efficiency of the administration of justice, and he would appoint the necessary person. I think that would be a very much better system, and it would achieve the object, which is very desirable, of extending this jurisdiction in the widest form to Quarter Sessions. I should like to have seen it made compulsory and I first of all drafted my Amendment in that way; but I was struck by an observation made on Second Reading, I think by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche, that there are still in this country some small Quarter Sessions where the business is very small in spite of the Road Traffic Act, which of course throws much work on most Quarter Sessions.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The truth about such suggestions as have been made by my noble friend must rest, I think, on this fact that counties in England vary to an enormous extent, both as regards the nature of their inhabitants and the sort of work that comes before Quarter Sessions. We have been given to understand that there are a number of counties which would prefer to be left to manage their affairs in their own way, and in particular to be able to run their Court of Quarter Sessions in the way they have been accustomed to do so for many years past to the satisfaction of the inhabitants. Accordingly, it was felt that it would be very unwise to try to thrust upon counties of that sort, whether they wanted it or not, the necessity, when any Chairman or Deputy Chairman is being appointed, of having to go to the Lord Chancellor for that appointment. For that reason we have deliberately and, as far as I can understand, with the consent of the great majority of persons who understand this business, decided to leave the Court of Quarter Sessions as it is now, free, so to speak, from interference; but, of course, if they are left as they are now, the extended jurisdiction would not extend to such Courts as desired not to

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have it so extended and desired not to get appointments made by the Lord Chancellor.
There is very strong ground for believing that, at any rate in the first instance, it would be much better to leave that part of the clause as it stands, and not to attempt to make it a compulsory provision for all Quarter Sessions, still less, if I may say a word on that topic, to insist that every Chairman or Deputy Chairman should be paid. There are people of the greatest legal eminence who assist as Chairmen at Quarter Sessions, who do not in the least desire that they should be paid a salary, and who would very much object having to go to the county council when it is discussing, in what they might consider a somewhat humiliating manner, the nature of their remuneration for acting as Chairmen or Deputy Chairmen which they have been willing to do for nothing. Then the noble Lord asks: "How, then, to apply?" I am inclined to think the Court of Quarter Sessions would pass a resolution that the Chairman should make an application. I do not think there is any particular formality about applying to the Lord Chancellor. Of course I do not speak with any great experience, but, as far as I can make out, the Lord Chancellor is the easiest person to apply to in all England. Accordingly I do not think that difficulty is a very serious one.
The difficulty of paying all Chairmen is very largely this: There may be county councils who object to having a paid Chairman. Without elaborate machinery it is impossible for a Bill to provide that they should be paid, for the reason that the county council, if it does not wish to have a paid Chairman in the county or division of the county, might very well suggest a derisory sum as proper remuneration. The Government are not in a position to propose now an elaborate series of sections or rules which would provide means of determining what a Chairman should be paid, and without that it is impossible to have paid Chairmen in every case. Accordingly, though I am grateful to the noble Lord for the suggestions he has made, I have to ask the Committee to pass the proposal as it stands on the paper.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: Before w e pass from this matter, might I ask the Lord Chancellor why he has brought in a solicitor in the present manner? On the face of it, it seems absolutely anomalous, when you are looking for a legal expert, that you should find one who normally has not been able to practise vocally before the Court over which he has to preside.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Representations were made to those in charge of the Bill that there are solicitors of experience, power, and ability who do now act as Chairmen of Quarter Sessions. The Lord Chancellor, of course, is not bound to appoint such a person if there is another person who fulfils the qualifications mentioned in the subsection, but it seemed to those in charge of the matter that if there was a suitable solicitor of not less than ten years' standing who had such legal experience as to qualify him, in the opinion of the Lord Chancellor, to act as Chairman, it would be right that power should be given to the Lord Chancellor to appoint such a person.
LORD CAUTLEY: I do not now propose to move the Amendments on the Paper in my name.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, leave out lines 9 to 12 and insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD ATKIN: With great respect to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cautley, I am not, and would not have been, a great supporter of his proposal because I consider it went too far. The Amendments which have now been put on the Paper by the Lord Chancellor meet a great many of the objections urged against the Bill in its original form. For instance, it is not now necessary, before you get an increase in the jurisdiction of Quarter Sessions, for Quarter Sessions to have a Chairman appointed by the Lord Chancellor. As I understand the effect of the Amendments which the Lord Chancellor has proposed to Clause 2, it is that if Quarter Sessions themselves have appointed a Chairman who has the qualifications mentioned in that clause, then the jurisdiction will at once be given to that Quarter Sessions. That removes one of the difficulties that some of us felt in the first instance.

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But I am bound, though I have no Amendment on the paper in respect of it, to record my objection in principle to a system which still leaves some Courts of Quarter Sessions not presided over by a qualified Chairman. In that respect it is not a question of its being a small county or a large county, a populous county or an unpopulous county; it is a question of the administration of justice in the trial of particular criminals who come before that Quarter Sessions, whether these cases are rare or not. The general feeling of the profession has been for years that the criminal jurisdiction of Quarter Sessions ought only to be exercised by a Court presided over by a qualified lawyer. That was the feeling expressed by Viscount Peel's Royal Commission—that only persons so qualified should be eligible for appointment to Quarter Sessions. It is obvious, in view of the difficult cases that can come before Quarter Sessions, that it makes no difference whether many of these cases or only a few of them come. One is desirous that justice should be done to the criminal whoever he is, and there are cases now within the ordinary jurisdiction of Quarter Sessions that are just as testing cases for a criminal court as any that come before the High Court. I would cite the cases of obtaining money by false pretences and receiving stolen goods knowing them to be stolen—questions involving, very often, the most difficult points of law and involving the most careful trial by a competent lawyer.
I venture to suggest that it is quite illogical to say that you will extend the jurisdiction of Quarter Sessions only to those Sessions which have a qualified Chairman but you will leave the present jurisdiction, which is much larger and just as difficult, in the hands of people who are not qualified Chairmen, and I shall continue to make that protest. I hope very soon the matter will be put right. Quarter Sessions are now themselves doing a good deal in the required direction, and I noticed in the Report of the Royal Commission that out of sixty-seven Quarter Sessions forty-eight already have qualified Chairmen. I cannot understand why the remaining twenty should not be quickened up and told they must have a qualified Chairman. But that is not now the proposal. I only venture to think it was most unfortunate that it has not been made good.
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As to the other matter, the extension of the jurisdiction, I agree that the jurisdiction ought not to be extended for the simple reason that I think no jurisdiction ought to be exercised except by a qualified Chairman, and if you have not got a qualified Chairman you ought not to give the extended jurisdiction. I think that the Lord Chancellor has cured a very important defect, because he has now left the existing qualified Chairmen where they are. They have not got to resign; they have not got to be reappointed; and the jurisdiction will go. From that point of view I think the thing is good but I venture still to express a hope that at some time or another, perhaps in another place, provision will be made for securing what has been a crying thing of the profession for years—namely, that no Court of Quarter Sessions should seek to exercise its very important jurisdiction without being presided over by a qualified Chairman.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (2), after "may" ["the Lord Chancellor may recommend"], to insert "upon the application of the Court." The noble and learned Lord said: This is consequential upon the previous Amendment. The application of the Court of Quarter Sessions will be introduced by the new subsection, and after "may" we insert "upon the application of the Court."
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 17, after ("may") insert ("upon the application of the Court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "during good behaviour" and insert "for such term as may be specified in his appointment." The noble and learned Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to prevent the appointment being necessarily for life and to enable an agreement to be made as to the length of tenure of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman who has been appointed, and it has no other object than that. If a paid Chairman is thought necessary in a particular county it may not be possible to get an efficient person to accept the position unless he has some security of tenure; that is to say, may wish to hold his post for some years.

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Accordingly, we propose to insert certain elastic words to enable this matter to be taken into account and the Chairman will be appointed "for such term as may be specified in his appointment."
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 6, leave out ("during good behaviour") and insert ("for such term as may be specified in his appointment").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: It appears to me that if a person is appointed for five years he may still hold his position under the words of this clause, as now proposed to be amended, although he is not of good behaviour.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: "Of good behaviour" is a somewhat technical phrase used largely in respect of High Court Judges and others of that kind when they are appointed, and I do not think it is suggested here in any way that a person appointed for five years, or a longer period, could not be removed for some proper reason. But I think it would be unnecessary to add the words "during good behaviour." If he has in fact been appointed for a number of years, that would be unnecessary and perhaps not altogether polite to him.
LORD ATKIN: I do not know whether the Lord Chancellor has considered it, but it did occur to me that perhaps one way of meeting what the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, has said would be this. Any Chairman would obviously have to be on the Commission of the Peace and the Lord Chancellor has very large powers of removing persons from the Commission of the Peace. In a case where there was obvious good cause for a man ceasing to be Chairman, probably the Lord Chancellor would have it within his own power to prevent him being any longer Chairman.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord. I have no doubt that is the case.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "and Chairman or Deputy Chairman, as the case may be, of the Appeal Committee appointed under Section seven of the Summary Jurisdiction and Appeals Act,
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1933." The noble and learned Lord said: It was originally proposed in the clause of the Bill which your Lordships have before you, that the appointed Chairman should necessarily be Chairman of the Appeal Committee. The Appeal Committee, as your Lordships are aware, is a Committee appointed by the justices in Quarter Sessions for the purpose of dealing with appeals from petty sessions, and it has been suggested to those in charge of the Bill that in some cases it would be convenient that the two offices should be held by different persons, a thing which, according to my information, is not uncommon in certain of the counties. Accordingly, it was thought better to leave out the words which made it necessary for the appointed Chairman also to be Chairman of the Appeal Committee.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 9, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 11.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD ROCHE: I should like to make one suggestion to the Lord Chancellor on this matter. The Amendment quite meets with the assent of my mind, but I suggest that it might be wise before Report stage to consider whether you should not have a provision in Clause 4 empowering the offices to be united and the matter to be taken into account in fixing a salary. I agree entirely that it is desirable to dissever any compulsory joining of the offices, but it may be wise, since you have mentioned the Chairmanship of Committees other than the Appeal Committee in Clause 4, such as the Rating Committee, to have a reference there permitting the joining of two offices and permitting that to be taken into account in assessing the salary that is to be paid.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The matter is, I think, a little complex because Clause 4 deals with the question of remunerating legally qualified Chairmen. If they are remunerated there is already a section—it is Section 7 of the Act of 1934—which provides for the appointment of Appeal Committees. Under that Act—here I trust to my memory, I think it is in subsection 1 (b)—you will find that a paid Chairman has necessarily to act as Chairman of the Appeal Committee as well as Chairman of the ordinary Court of Quarter Sessions. Accordingly under the Bill as it stands

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a person who is remunerated under Clause 4 will be under an obligation to act as Chairman of the Appeal Committee. I hope that explains the matter and takes away the force of the criticism of the noble and learned Lord. If he is unpaid the position is different. In that case the removal of the words which I am proposing to remove by my Amendment would prevent it being necessary for an unpaid appointed Chairman to act as Chairman of these two bodies.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "either of the Court of Quarter Sessions or of the Appeal Committee." The noble and learned Lord said: This is simply a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 12, leave out from the second ("Chairman") to ("or") in line 14.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out subsection (4). The noble and learned Lord said: This subsection is no longer necessary for the reason that in the Amendment to which your Lordships have already agreed in Clause 1 we have inserted a qualification for persons to be appointed by the Lord Chancellor. When you come to the definition of legally qualified Chairmen, that will be found in a subsequent Amendment to insert a new subsection in Clause 2. On that ground this subsection is no longer necessary. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, leave out subsection (4).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Extension of jurisdiction of Quarter Sessions.
2.—(1) At any session of a Court of Quarter Sessions presided over by an appointed Chairman the Court shall (in addition to such jurisdiction with respect to the trial of offences as is vested in Courts of Quarter Sessions at the commencement of this Act) have jurisdiction to try a person charged with any of the offences specified in the First Schedule to this Act.
(2) In this section the expression "appointed Chairman" means any of the following persons, that is to say:—
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(a) a Chairman and a Deputy Chairman of a Court of Quarter Sessions appointed under this Act;

(b) a Chairman and a Deputy Chairman of Quarter Sessions appointed under Section forty-two of the Local Government Act, 1888, and a person appointed under Section two of the Quarter Sessions (London) Act, 1896, to act as Chairman or Deputy Chairman of Quarter Sessions;

(c) a Chairman and a Deputy Chairman of Quarter Sessions appointed under the Lancashire Quarter Sessions Act, 1928;

(d) a Chairman and a Deputy Chairman of Quarter Sessions appointed before the commencement of this Act under Section ninety of the Middlesex County Council Act, 1934;

(e) a Recorder, a Deputy Recorder and an Assistant Recorder.

(3) Where at any session of a Court of Quarter Sessions having an appointed Chairman no appointed Chairman is present, the Court shall nevertheless have jurisdiction to try a person charged with any of the offences specified in the First Schedule to this Act if the court is presided over by a justice of the peace for the county deputed to preside at that session by an appointed Chairman of the Court with the approval of the Lord Chancellor:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply to the Court of Quarter Sessions for the County of London or to the court of the Recorder of any borough having a separate Court of Quarter Sessions.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Amendment in subsection (1) is only a matter of drafting. Instead of the words "an appointed Chairman" it is proposed to insert "a legally qualified Chairman of the Court" which is to have these extended powers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 32, leave out ("an appointed Chairman") and insert ("a legally qualified Chairman of the Court:").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out subsection (2) and insert:
"(2) For the purposes of this section a person shall not, in relation to any Court of Quarter Sessions be deemed to be a legally qualified Chairman of the Court unless he is—

(a) a Chairman or a Deputy Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions appointed under this Act;

(b) a person who is or has been a member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, a Judge of the Supreme Court, an official referee attached to that Court, a Railway and Canal Commissioner, or a Judge of a County Court, and who has been

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elected by the Court of Quarter Sessions as Chairman or Deputy Chairman thereof;

(c) a Chairman or a Deputy Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions appointed under Section forty-two of the Local Government Act, 1888, or a person appointed under Section two of the Quarter Sessions (London) Act, 1896, to act as Chairman or Deputy Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions;

(d) a Chairman or a Deputy Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions appointed under the Lancashire Quarter Sessions Act, 1928;

(e) a Chairman or a Deputy Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions appointed before the commencement of this Act under Section ninety of the Middlesex County Council Act, 1934;

(f) the Recorder, a Deputy Recorder or an Assistant Recorder of the borough for which the Court of Quarter Sessions is held."

The noble and learned Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to define people who will be legally qualified Chairmen of the Court and who therefore will have extended jurisdiction. It may be explained that there are in this Amendment two things of substance. First, it is provided in paragraph (a) that a legally qualified Chairman of the Court shall be "a Chairman or a Deputy Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions appointed under this Act." That is to say, if the Lord Chancellor on the recommendation of a county has appointed a person who has in the terms of the subsection your Lordships have already passed a legal qualification, such a person will be within the meaning of this Bill a legally qualified Chairman of the Court. Then there are a number of others who, though not appointed by the Lord Chancellor have, owing to their own merits, as we will suppose, been appointed to places of distinction, and who are defined in paragraphs (b) (c) (d) (e) and (f) as being already legally qualified persons.
To put the matter in concrete form, it does not seem to be necessary for a member of the judicial Committee of the Privy Council or for a judge of the High Court to go to the Lord Chancellor in order to be appointed so that he should become a legally qualified Chairman of the Court. There are these two classes—persons appointed by the Lord Chancellor, and a large number of persons, who I am glad to say often do help with the work of Quarter Sessions,
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who already have special qualifications and therefore do not need any recommendation by the Lord Chancellor, We carefully considered the people who should be within that class. I am not prepared to say that we may not have omitted some person who should be within it. If there is such a person I shall be very glad to consider an Amendment for his inclusion.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 38, leave out subsection (2) and insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD ROCHE: I think this is the stage at which I should trouble your Lordships with the few observations I have to make on these Amendments. When the matter was before your Lordships' House on the Second Reading stage the noble and learned Viscount who then occupied the Woolsack most kindly and courteously undertook to consider certain views which were expressed by my noble friends and to some extent by myself. That kindness and courtesy has been continued by the noble and learned Lord who now occupies the Woolsack and these Amendments are the result. Let me say frankly that I think they very much improve the Bill. They get rid of the necessity that in order that Quarter Sessions may have this extended jurisdiction all appointments must be made by the central Government through the person of the Lord Chancellor making recommendations. The provisions of the Bill originally I thought would be very offensive to many great counties. The Bill with the Amendments which your Lordships have adopted and are asked to adopt leaves all appointments where there is to be payment in the hands of the Lord Chancellor. That I think is right because the Lord Chancellor has much better knowledge of the persons qualified and desirous of occupying these positions for remuneration than any one else, and it does away with the chances of lobbying and canvassing.
My complaint, so far as I have still a complaint to make, is that this list of persons who are to be deemed to be legally qualified is not quite extensive enough. I can quite understand that the noble and learned Lord may think it too much to assume that every solicitor of ten years' standing or every barrister of ten years' standing is legally qualified so as

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to be capable without the Lord Chancellor's consideration to have the extended jurisdiction, but I venture to suggest that that view should not exclude the Law Officers of the Crown. I should like those words in, if for no other reason than that the Deputy Chairman to myself in my county is His Majesty's present Solicitor-General. Moreover, I should like the "Law Officers of the Crown" to include Directors of Public Prosecutions, and I will tell your Lordships quite frankly why. Directors of Public Prosecutions are very busy men, and when they retire they like some occupation. One of them, the most distinguished criminal lawyer, perhaps, in this country, Sir Archibald Bodkin, is Chairman of Devon Quarter Sessions, a great county, and I cannot help thinking that that county would feel—I will not say resentment, but would feel it very distasteful, to have to come to the Lord Chancellor to make representations that their Chairman should be appointed. I think no risk would be run by including in "Law Officers" Directors of Public Prosecutions.
I have one more suggestion, and it is a more important suggestion, to make: that His Majesty's Counsel should be deemed to be legally qualified. There are some 300 of them in the world, but after all, they are all appointed by the Lord Chancellor from the Bar. It may be said that they are not appointed for the exercise of criminal jurisdiction. Given the intelligence which has led to their appointment, and given their election by their fellows in their counties, I think that no risks would be run in allowing them to be deemed to be legally qualified. I earnestly press for that, because there are at least two, three, four or five important counties in England which at present have King's Counsel as Chairmen whom they value and about whom they would much rather not go cap in hand to the Lord Chancellor for reappointment. This proposal is, I think, justified as a matter of principle, and it is justified as a matter of experience. As a matter of principle, unlike my noble friend Lord Cautley, I do not want to see Chairmen generally paid. I want to see them go on doing their work as they have done it for centuries, unpaid, except in the busy and rather suburban areas. I do not think you will get that unless you indulge, as you may call it, the pride or the prejudice of the counties in allowing them to select
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their Chairmen from a proper list of legally-qualified persons.
As a matter of experience, I have with the assistance of the Court of Criminal Appeal looked into the statistics for the last three years of the appeals to the Court of Criminal Appeal. I can give your Lordships the result in round figures in a few words. The Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, who, as my noble friend Lord Atkin has already said, as to two-thirds are already legally qualified persons, come better out of the comparison than the Recorders or the inferior Judges who are appointed by the central authority. There are about fifty successful appeals per annum, or 150 successful appeals for the last three years in question. The High Court, as you may suppose, comes best out of the comparison. Whereas they try nearly half the cases—certainly two-fifths of the cases—only one-fifth of the successful appeals are appeals against trials presided over by a Judge of the High Court. Two-thirds of the rest are successful appeals from Recorders and Judges short of the stature of High Court Judges sitting in the Central Criminal Court, London Sessions and so forth; and only one-third are appeals from trials held by the Chairmen appointed by the counties. For those reasons I venture to suggest that experience points where principle points: to the further extension of that which the Lord Chancellor has been good enough to propose in paragraph (b). I have only one other very meticulous point. I am not sure, but I think my noble friend Viscount Bertie would be the best judge of such matters, that the word "or" ought not to be inserted after paragraphs (a), (b), (c), and (d); but of that I confess I am not a judge and that he is a better one.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I do not profess to be an expert on grammar. An expert, I take it, is a person who talks enough, whether he knows anything about the subject or not. But with regard to the point raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Roche, I think it would be more usual to put an "or."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: On the question whether "or" should be put in, I venture to suggest it would be sufficient to put in "or" at the end of para-

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graph (e) In other words, it would run "(a), (b), (c), (d), (e) or (f)." That would be sufficient to show that the words were alternative. That might perhaps be done at a later stage. With regard to the suggestion of my noble and learned friend Lord Roche, I will undertake that it shall be carefully considered before the matter comes up on Report. As at present advised, my view is that ex-Law Officers of the Crown, and Law Officers too, ought to be in the list of persons in subsection (2) who need not be appointed by the Lord Chancellor. I would say the same of Directors of Public Prosecutions. I would point out that as the subsection stands, the persons mentioned in (b), (c), (d), (e) and (f) are, almost without exception, being paid for services of a legal character rendered to the State. I do not think that will apply to past members of the Judicial Committee who may be unfortunate enough not to have a pension. Speaking generally, however, they are persons who are paid. The ex-Law Officers and the ex-Directors of Public Prosecutions would be in another class, in that they would be in receipt of nothing from the Crown in the ordinary way. It would, I think, as at present advised, be advisable to include them in the hope, as my noble friend said, that sometimes they will be able and willing to act as Chairman or Deputy Chairman of the Court of Quarter Sessions without any remuneration at all.
With regard to the class "King's Counsel," I am in a greater difficulty. I entertain considerable doubts at present whether the Government would be able to put them in the clause. It is to be noted that King's Counsel are often appointed who have never acted in connection with criminal matters at all and who therefore have no experience whatever in the sort of matters with which a Chairman or Deputy Chairman would have to deal at Quarter Sessions; and also they are, or may be, persons who have considerable distinction as jurists or something of that kind but who would be not all suitable as Chairmen of the Court which we are considering. It is not a sufficient answer to say that in that case they would not be elected Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, for this reason: that I know from experience that many laymen consider that if a man is a K.C. there is no branch of law at which he is not an
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expert. There may be cases in which, under an addition of all past or present persons with the patent King's Counsel, somebody would be appointed as Chairman or Deputy Chairman of the Court who really was not in the least legally qualified to act as Chairman of that Court. However, I promise further to consider the matter, and it can be brought up on the Report stage.
LORD ATKIN: Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will forgive me adding one class of person, and I shall be quite satisfied if he will consider the matter. Difficulty seems to arise in this way. Quarter Sessions which have a Chairman qualified in this way will be a Court which will automatically have the increased jurisdiction. Suppose the Chairman retires or dies, and they then wish to appoint another man. They lose their jurisdiction if they appoint such a person as my noble and learned friend referred to—if they appointed Sir Archibald Bodkin or a retired Law Officer, or the Recorder of a large town in the county. It seems very remarkable that the Recorder of Birmingham, who presides over the Sessions at Birmingham, with an immense list, and immense experience, should not be qualified to preside over the Warwickshire Quarter Sessions. I think the position of Recorders might very well be considered.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will undertake that the matter shall be very carefully considered before the Report stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is purely consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 57, leave out ("an appointed Chairman no appointed") and insert ("a legally qualified Chairman no legally qualified").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next also is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 22, leave out ("an appointed") and insert ("a legally qualified").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Power to remunerate legally qualified Chairmen and Deputy Chairmen of Quarter Sessions]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment to this clause is purely drafting. Having regard to what we have done, it is now necessary to make that apply to the provisions of subsections (1) and (2), and therefore the Amendment is to insert "foregoing provisions."
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 13, leave out ("provisions of subsection (1)") and insert ("foregoing provisions").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5 [Amendment as to power to cancel Assizes]:
LORD CAUTLEY LORD CAUTLEY moved to insert at the beginning of the clause:
"In all cases of a criminal character heard at a Court of Quarter Sessions for a county presided over by an appointed Chairman including appeals to the Appeal Committee appointed under Section seven of the Summary Jurisdiction and Appeals Act, 1933, and appeals to the whole Court under its other jurisdiction if any the sentences or penalties imposed thereat shall be fixed and imposed solely by the appointed Chairman."
The noble Lord said: I would like to move this Amendment for the consideration of your Lordships. It is to alter the system by which sentences are fixed in the case of trials before the legally qualified Chairmen appointed by the Lord Chancellor. The object of appointing legally qualified Chairmen is that trials should be conducted in the most approved manner, as required by the Court of Criminal Appeal—an object most desirable in itself and one which I have been attempting to get applied to all Quarter Sessions in the country. When a trial is over, and a conviction has followed, the sentence, as any experienced lawyer or person who presides in these Sessions will tell you, is the most difficult part of the whole proceeding. Most lawyers have no difficulty in trying the criminal, but every Chairman or Recorder has the greatest difficulty in apportioning the sentence.
The sentence comes to be decided by the whole Court of magistrates who have attended during the trial. In some cases you may have twenty magistrates, or even more, with different views and different prejudices, all to apportion the
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sentence, with the result that if the Chairman's views are not accepted it may lead to division of opinion and even a vote. I venture to suggest that it is extremely desirable that this system should be altered, and that where you have an experienced Chairman—my Amendment applies only to a trial taken part in by him—the apportioning of sentence should be decided by the Chairman who has presided, who has this knowledge of the law, which is the very reason for which he has been appointed. He is aware of the tendency and the actual decisions of the Court of Criminal Appeal, and so we may get the same tendency, not only in the proceedings of these Courts, but in the sentences given for similar offences all over the country. I think this may get rid of an evil which has continued for a very long time, and I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 21, at the beginning, insert the said new words.—(Lord Cautley.)
LORD RAGLAN: I hope the noble and learned Lord will not accept this Amendment, because it would render the appointed Chairman the sole member of the Court. The only part of the proceedings in which the magistrates, other than the Chairman, have to take a part, is in giving an opinion as to the sentence. The result of this Amendment would be that they would not come to the Court at all.
LORD ROCHE: I agree with the noble Lord that this Amendment would render the Quarter Sessions inoperative. No one would attend. The jury would find the verdict, and the Chairman would give the sentence. I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord would be prepared to embody in this Bill, somewhere, a provision that the Chairman should have a casting vote? I do not think that matters often go to a vote—they very rarely do go to a vote—but such a provision appears already in Acts relating to rating matters, and it would be a moral assertion of the superiority of the Chairman, which would enable him, if he thought necessary, to exercise more severe jurisdiction over recalcitrant members of the Bench than at present he is able to do. I think it would be a right provision, and would mark the superiority of the Chairman without giving him that absolute sway which the noble Lord desires.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: I would also wish to support what has been said by the noble Lord opposite. The effect of making the Chairman the sole deciding judge on the question of sentence would reduce the ordinary country magistrates to nothing at all. The country magistrates do a good deal of work, and they frequently come from petty sessions, where they know the first beginnings of the cases which are tried. As the noble Lord opposite is a Chairman of Quarter Sessions he knows that in fact the Chairman, especially if he is a legal Chairman, nearly always takes a prominent part. I do not remember a case of a vote being taken on a sentence, and I think it would be a very great mistake to take away from the ordinary justices the only raison d'être they have got.
LORD MARLEY: I have known cases of a vote being taken, and really the whole procedure seems to be ridiculous when you have a large number of magistrates at a Quarter Sessions and they discuss among themselves this question of a sentence. The suggestion of a casting vote would be no help unless there was equal division among the magistrates. I cannot see that the casting vote would do more than give a chance of making a decision. I should have thought something might have been worked out in connection with an admitted difficulty, under which the advice of the Chairman should be taken in some way unless there was a good reason for going against it. But unless you desire that ordinary magistrates should not attend Quarter Sessions I certainly should not like this to remain as it is.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Though I am afraid I must appear rather unkind to the noble Lord, Lord Cautley, I am still quite unable to accept any of these Amendments. This Amendment is of a very drastic character, and would entirely revolutionise the position of the justices who are good enough to attend Quarter Sessions, because they would in effect have no voice in the really important part of the proceedings. I think it is impossible for that to be accepted by the Government. In regard to the question of a Chairman having a casting vote I shall be very willing to consider it before the Report stage. It is true that in rating matters a Chairman is given a casting vote. The reason, I think, why it has
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never yet been provided that the Chairman of Quarter Sessions should have such a casting vote is that it is so rare, though it does occasionally happen, that there is any counting of votes at all. There is a majority one way or the other, and there is no necessity for the Chairman to do anything more than take the views.
LORD CAUTLEY: I am quite aware that in proposing this Amendment I was in fact suggesting that the Chairman of Quarter Sessions when he was a legally appointed Chairman, and ultimately a paid man, as he will be, should be put on the same footing as a Recorder. After years of experience in the law of a certain kind, both as practising in the Recorder's Court and the Court of Quarter Sessions, and of administering the law in both, either as Chairman of Quarter Sessions or as a Recorder, I am firmly convinced that trials are better conducted and justice is more efficiently administered in the Recorder's Court than in the Court of Quarter Sessions. However, I have ventilated the subject, and I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6:
Amendments as to committal to Assizes or Quarter Sessions.
6.—(1) The power conferred on justices by Section one of the Assizes Relief Act, 1889, to direct that a person charged with an indictable offence triable at Quarter Sessions shall be tried before a Court of Assize instead of at the next practicable Court of Quarter Sessions having jurisdiction to try the offence shall not be exercised unless they are of opinion that there are circumstances which make the case an unusually grave or difficult one, or that serious delay would be occasioned by committal to Quarter Sessions.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), after "delay," to insert "or inconvenience." The noble and learned Lord said: This is a very small point. The justices have power under the Assizes Relief Act, 1889, to direct that a person charged on an indictable offence and triable at Quarter Sessions be tried at the Court of Assizes if there are special reasons. It has turned out in practice that the justices treated that as entitling them to send the matter to Assize if Assizes were going to come on in a few days or a short time before the next Court of Quarter Sessions, and accordingly, the Peel Commission having greatly objected

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to that practice, this clause was put in to say that the justices were not to take that course unless they were of opinion that there were circumstances that made the case an unusually grave or difficult one, or when serious delay would be occasioned. The suggestion now made is that the word "inconvenience" should be inserted after "delay," because consideration has shown that there are cases where there would not be great delay but there would be considerable inconvenience. I will only give one illustration. It might be that there were attendances of witnesses required at the Court of Quarter Sessions, which would cause considerable difficulty.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 40, after ("delay") insert ("or inconvenience").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 12 agreed to.
Clause 13:
Assimilation of proceedings on Crown side of King's Bench Division with other proceedings in that division.
13. The enactments relating to the Supreme Court shall apply in relation to proceedings on the Crown side of the King's Bench Division as they apply in relation to other proceedings in the King's Bench Division, and so much of any provisions of the said enactments as specifically relates to the Crown side of the King's Bench Division shall cease to have effect.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out Clause 13. The noble and learned Lord said: Careful consideration seems to show that this clause is really unnecessary. One part of the clause was designed to justify the repeal of two passages in the Judicature Act, which are now repealed by the Second Schedule to the Bill. The other part of the clause, it was found, was unnecessary, and its terms appeared to have very wide implications that were not intended.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 13.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 15, to insert the following new clause:
Provisions as to appeals from the Mayor's and City of London Court.
"—(1) An appeal from proceedings in the Mayor's and City of London Court not within the jurisdiction of a County Court shall lie to the Court of Appeal in all cases in which such an appeal could have been brought if the proceedings had been in the High Court; and subject to rules of court, an appeal from any such proceedings may be heard and determined by the Court of Appeal in like manner in all respects as if the proceedings had been in the High Court.
(2) In this section the expression 'appeal' includes any motion for a new trial or to set aside a verdict, finding or judgment."
The noble and learned Lord said: This new clause is due to a consideration of the peculiar position in which appeals from proceedings in the Mayor's Court have been for a long time. The matter came before the Court of Appeal in quite a recent case, and Lord Justice Slesser was concerned to point out that the appeals from the Mayor's Court were in a very unsatisfactory position, because if they were matters which could have been brought in the County Court there would be an appeal in the same way as if it had been a County Court appeal; whereas, if the Mayor's Court had tried a matter which was beyond jurisdiction of the County Court, the appeals there were of a very curious nature. In the first place the suitor who wished to appeal under Section 8 of the Mayor's Court (Procedure) Act had to enter notice of appeal within two days. Well, that is a very short time. He then had in all cases to give security for costs, and if he were a defendant he had to give a security for the amount of the judgment. Of course that is entirely obsolete according to our modern ideas. Moreover, the language of another section which deals with the matter of appeals from the Mayor's Court is both archaic and obscure.
It was thought very necessary while this Bill was going through this House to make it clear that there should be an appeal from judgments or orders in the Mayor's Court and to define how they should stand. The present proposal is to add a clause to say that if the appeal is not within the jurisdiction of a County Court—a matter which perhaps will require a little further definition—there should be an appeal to the Court of Appeal just as if it were an appeal from a High Court decision, because, although I am rather glad to say the jurisdiction

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of the Mayor's Court is not often strained in such a way, there is no pecuniary limit to the jurisdiction of the Mayor's Court, and it might be a matter which involved very many thousands of pounds. The new clause which I propose provides that subject to rules of court an appeal from proceedings in the Mayor's Court may be heard and determined by the Court of Appeal in like manner as if the proceedings had been in the High Court. In the second subsection "appeal" is defined to include what I suppose many people would think it would naturally include—motions for a new trial or to set aside a verdict, finding, or judgment. Your Lordships will agree that, with regard to appeals which are outside the County Court jurisdiction, it is most desirable that we should define the circumstances in which such appeals may be brought and the period, date, and so forth which ought to be applied to them. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 15 insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16:
Extension of jurisdiction of County Court.
16. The amounts by reference to which the jurisdiction of a County Court in actions of contract or tort or for money recoverable by Statute is limited by Sections forty and forty-one of the County Courts Act, 1934, shall be increased by two hundred pounds, and accordingly for references in those sections to one hundred pounds there shall he substituted references to three hundred pounds:
Provided that if the amount claimed exceeds one hundred pounds, the defendant may give notice that he objects to the action being tried in the County Court, and, where such notice is given, the Judge shall order that the action be transferred to the High Court.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in the proviso, after "may," to insert "within such time as may be presibed by County Court rules." The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment which is obviously necessary. It deals with the suggested power to increase the jurisdiction of the County Court in such a way under Clause 16 that the amounts by reference to which the jurisdiction is limited should be increased by £200, provided that if the defendant gives notice that he objects to the action being tried in the County Court, it automatically goes to the High Court. Nothing is said
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about time, and accordingly it would be necessary in rules to prescribe the time. Here is the sort of point that appeals to lawyers but does not appeal so much to laymen. Doubts have been expressed whether a rule saying notice should be given within ten days would be intra vires or not. It is a small matter, but it is quite clear that such rules should be made, and, in order to remove doubts, it is thought the safer course would be to insert the words, "within such time as may be prescribed by County Court rules." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page is, line 20, after ("may") insert ('within such time as may be prescribed by County Court rules").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF READING THE MARQUESS OF READING moved, in the proviso, before "the High Court," to insert ", and the action shall thenceforward proceed in all respects as if it had originally been commenced in,". The noble Marquess said: I am not by any means confident that the particular words I have put down are apt for their purpose, but I should be quite content if the Lord Chancellor would consider, before the next stage of the Bill, whether there be any merit in the point they are intended to make. I quite realise that Clause 16 is permissive as far as the defendant is concerned, but I want to be quite clear that the power given to him to refuse to have his case tried in the County Court, and to insist on its going to the High Court, is an unfettered one in this sense, that it shall not be open to the Judge who ultimately tries the case in the High Court to say to a successful defendant: "True, you have won your case in the High Court, but it was a case in which a very small amount was involved. I think you ought to have allowed it to stay in the County Court, as the plaintiff originally started it, and, having a discretion in regard to costs, I propose to exercise that discretion by only giving you, although successful, costs on the County Court scale." That would be a penalty which, in my submission, would be quite unjust within the framework of this clause, but it is a situation which is not provided for in the Bill as at present drafted. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 23, after ("to") insert ("and the action shall thenceforward proceed in

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all respects as if it had originally been commenced in,").—(Marquess of Reading.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble and learned friend is quite right in thinking there must be some provision for the way in which an action shall then proceed if it has been begun in the County Court and, under the proviso in Clause 16, is transferred to the High Court. But there is, in fact, full power by rule to provide how the action is to proceed in the High Court, and the intention is, as soon as this Bill becomes law, to apply to have such rules made as will provide in all respects for the way in which such a transferred action shall proceed. Whether the Rules Committee will think fit to fetter the discretion of the Judge in the matter of costs is another question, but my noble and learned friend may rest assured that the whole matter of a transferred action will have to be considered in detail before the Rules Committee, and they will do their best to do what is just and proper in the matter.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: In these circumstances I do not propose to press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to add to the clause:
"Provided always, that if the action is in respect of loss or damage caused by mining subsidence to a dwelling-house of which the rateable value does not exceed forty Pounds, the Judge may, if he thinks fit, having regard to the relative means of the parties, order that the action shall not be transferred to the high Court."
The noble Viscount said: As long ago as 1927 the Royal Commission on Mining Subsidence recommended that the principle embodied in this Amendment should be incorporated in an Act of Parliament, but it was not until seven years later, in 1934, that an opportunity, as I thought, presented itself in the County Courts (Amendment) Bill of that year. When I moved a similar Amendment to that now under discussion, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Sankey, who then occupied the Woolsack, resisted the Amendment on behalf of His Majesty's Government on the ground t hat that Bill was not suitable for such a purpose, as it was introduced merely for the purpose of paving the way for the consolidation of the County Courts Acts. He suggested that the proper place for such an alteration in the law was a Coal Bill. Your
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Lordships therefore may be somewhat surprised that I again venture to bring this matter forward in a non-Coal Bill.
I will make no apology for doing so for a very good reason. Recently in another place an honourable member tabled an Amendment to the Coal Bill to cover this point, but his Amendment was ruled out of order by Mr. Speaker, so the question now arises, what is the proper class of Bill which can remove this grievance? We are first told in 1934 that the opportunity is a Coal Bill, and when an attempt is made in a Coal Bill the point is ruled out of order. The people whose houses are injured by mining subsidence are nearly always in humble circumstances. They are mostly unorganised, which perhaps explains their inability to get justice done. They are often not in a financial position to apply to the High Court, and it is on their behalf that I now appeal to your Lordships, so that they may be enabled to have their cases tried in the County Court, providing the County Court judge thinks that, having regard to the relative means of the parties, the case ought not to be transferred to the High Court. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 23, at end insert the said new proviso.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is an interesting Amendment which raises a point of some little difficulty, but I am unable to accept the Amendment for reasons I shall hope to indicate. The object of the Amendment is that an action, if it is an action due to mining subsidence of a dwelling-house of a particular value, must necessarily remain in the County Court presumably although the defendant wishes to go to the High Court. I am afraid this is a matter in which I must plead guilty to a great deal of experience, although in regard to many matters which have been dealt with to-day I have had to receive my information from others. Subsidence actions, as some of your Lordships will be aware, are often of the very greatest difficulty. They are often, I agree, expensive; they require expert evidence which has got to be tested by all the means open to counsel of eminence; and it may be impossible to dispose of them under a number of days of argument. There was a time when I appeared

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constantly in these actions, and I am afraid I know what a terrible time they often involve.
If such an action as that was brought in a County Court the difficulty which I foresee is not that the County Court judge is not quite able to deal with it so far as his competence is concerned, but that very few County Court Judges can proceed with a case de die in diem if it is a case of any length or difficulty or which involves a prolonged period, and nothing can be more fatal from the point of view of the litigants on both sides, and the witnesses, whether they be expert or lay witnesses, than that a case tried or begun in a particular Court in a particular time should have to stand over for a week at the end of part of a day, to be continued at another County Court, then to be stood over a short time to go to a third Court, again to be stood over and for a fourth time to come back to the original Court and so be dealt with in a piecemeal fashion. It is far better and far cheaper in the end in such a case for the parties concerned that it should go before a Judge who can deal with the case de die in diem and get rid of it straight away. That is the reason why, in my opinion, it is impossible to say that every one of these cases ought to remain in the County Court.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: May I interrupt my noble and learned friend? I understand he thinks that it automatically remains in the County Court, but that is so only if the County Court Judge thinks the relative means of the parties require that it should remain in this Court.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I may have been guilty of a slip of the tongue, and if so I apologise for it. I was well aware it was in the discretion of the Judge, but I am pointing out that there are good reasons why a number of such cases ought to go to the High Court, and, having regard to that, I venture to think it is unwise to place this action for subsidence, which is an action in tort, in quite a peculiar position with regard to jurisdiction. I was going to add another thing. The action may be in respect of a particular dwelling-house in a particular village, but it may be a test action and may be intended ultimately to provide for, we will say, fifty or one hundred
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houses which, it is alleged, have been damaged or as to which it is alleged that damage is probable from subsidence. In that case, again, it would be most desirable that the action should be tried once for all in the High Court. I am unable to see anything in the nature of an action for mining subsidence which makes it necessary to give the judge a special jurisdiction to say that in fact he must keep the action in his Court. I take the contrary view. I think there are very few such actions which can ever be properly brought in the County Court, and if a plaintiff should sometimes think fit to start such an action in the County Court I think the defendant should have the right, given by the proviso to the clause as it stands, to say he objects to that, and the action should then go to the High Court.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I am disappointed naturally with the reply of my noble and learned friend. I will not press the Amendment, but I will have it negatived.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD CARNOCK LORD CARNOCK moved to leave out Clause 16. The noble Lord said: I feel it rather impertinent on my part, after these two Amendments have been moved, to move my Amendment, which is to delete Clause 16 altogether. The reason I do so is that, in my opinion, the alteration of the jurisdiction of the Court from the sum of £100 to £300 is a very serious alteration. £300 may not seem a large sum to many of your Lordships here, but it is a very large sum to many poor people who deal with the County Courts. I do not want to bore your Lordships with the history of the County Courts but to those of your Lordships who are interested in legal history they are an interesting subject. Lord Brougham, who was sitting on the Woolsack in 1830, proposed that County Courts should be instituted. There were other courts in existence at that time to deal with small amounts, but he proposed the introduction of County Courts. Your Lordships' ancestors threw out the Bill owing to the eloquence of Lord Lyndhurst. In course of time Lord Lyndhurst himself was elevated to the Woolsack and he found it necessary to introduce the County Courts Act.
County Courts were then introduced. Their jurisdiction in those days was only

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for £20, but they were immediately popular, and they were popular for this reason, that they were simple and cheap. There were no pleadings, the procedure was quick, and poor people found in them something which they wanted. Since then the jurisdiction has, of course, been increased. It went up from £20 to £50, and I think in 1903 it went up to £100. There were members of your Lordships' House who objected to this increase for the same reason that I object to the increase which is now proposed. But the matter is a little different now. The tendency of modern legislation is for the State to take over more and more control. The consequences are that almost yearly Bills are passed and become Acts which are dealt with by the County Courts. I will mention a few. County Courts have to deal with the Agricultural Holdings Act, with the Rent Restrictions Acts, with the Tithe Acts, with the Workmen's Compensation Acts, with Landlord and Tenant Acts, and, in addition, with the ordinary common pleas of the poor people.
I have been able to get a number of figures which I believe are correct. There are 500 Courts in the country, and in 1935 they dealt with 1,200,000 cases. I do not say that all those cases were actually fought in the Courts, but they were cases dealt with by the County Court Judges and their Registrars. The cases that were actually heard numbered 30,000. My submission to your Lordships is that the County Court Judge and his Registrar do the main work of the law, and to put the additional burden on them of dealing with cases which will involve quite a different type of person than the person now using the County Court is unfair, and I say it is a physical impossibility. My point is that cases which involve a sum as large as £300 will not only bring in a different type of plaintiff and defendant but also a different type of counsel. Expensive, important counsel will come to the Court, and the wretched solicitor who is appearing for a poor labourer with a case involving perhaps two or three pounds may—I do not say he will, but there is a danger that he will—find the more important case getting priority. The poor man may find himself not treated with that courtesy and respect which he now receives. I do not see the necessity of it. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will say
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there is some reason. I do not pretend to know. Are the people who deal with sums as large as £300 unable to come up to London or to go to the High Court? Is the work so tremendous in the High Court that it has to be put on the already over-burdened shoulders of the County Court Judge? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 16.—(Lord Carnock.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Although I do not entirely agree with what the noble Lord has said, I do think that the question of raising the jurisdiction of the County Court by Clause 16 is a matter of considerable seriousness and I think he is perfectly justified in raising the question before your Lordships. In the opinion of all your Lordships, and certainly in the opinion of anyone who is experienced in the law, it is right to say that the County Courts are poor persons' courts and that the work done in settling the difficulties that arise between poor persons—dealing with judgment summonses, the collection of small debts and so on—ought to be done by the County Courts and in a sense as far as possible should have priority over work involving larger sums. If I thought that this clause was going in any way to affect the efficiency of the County Court Judges in dealing with poor persons' work I would have myself nothing in the world to do with it. But the effect of it is not going to be, as I am advised, anything like so important as my noble friend seems to think. My noble and learned friend Viscount Hailsham dealt with this matter on Second Reading, and he told your Lordships that the increase of cases which it was thought would be tried by County Court Judges under Clause 16 as it stands was estimated at 750 for the whole country. If there are 500 County Courts that is only one and a half for each Court, which ought not very seriously to interfere with their work.
But I agree that this is of the nature of an experiment. I am, as I have already said, most unwilling to put upon the County Courts as a speculation or an experiment anything that is going to affect their efficiency in dealing with work concerning the poorer class of litigant. If my noble friend would think fit on the Report stage to move an Amendment reducing the figure of £200 where it first stands to £100, I would give it the most

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careful consideration, and I might be able to accept it, but the clause as a whole I am convinced will be all to the good. It is a clause which was proposed by the Peel Commission after hearing a large number of County Court Judges and others who gave evidence, and I am quite unable to accept the proposed Amendment to strike it out. I have gone as far as I possibly can in saying that on Report I should be very glad to consider an Amendment somewhat modifying the effect of the clause.
LORD CARNOCK: After what the noble and learned Lord has said I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment, and I will take his advice.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]

  ADDITIONAL OFFENCES TRIABLE AT QUARTER SESSIONS.
  4. Offences under Section fifty-seven and Section sixty of the Offences Against the Person Act, 1861.
  LORD ROCHE LORD ROCHE moved to leave out paragraph 4. The noble and learned Lord said: If your Lordships will look at the First Schedule you will see that paragraph 4 mentions "offences under Section fifty-seven and Section sixty of the Offences against the Person Act, 1861." The First Schedule is a Schedule of the additional offences which will become triable at Quarter Sessions when they have a legally appointed Chairman. The offences dealt with in paragraph 4 are the offences of bigamy and concealment of birth. I am moving the omission of that paragraph because I think it is most unnecessary and undesirable. It is unnecessary for the reason that although the crime of bigamy is not rare its trial does not take very long. This is in essence a Relief of Assizes Bill. Bigamy, when it is found out, is found out, and in nine cases out of ten the plea is "Guilty." Therefore the determination of the matter is short, but the question of sentence is all important. These observations apply in equal degree to the offence of concealment of birth. No class of case needs more discrimination in sentence than these two,
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  and there is no class of case which needs more uniformity of treatment.
  Bigamy varies from cases where the sentence should be nothing to cases where the sentence should be five years penal servitude. I have myself given such a sentence in a case in which there were five offences of bigamy committed by the same person in sequence. Cases of bigamy include cases of fraud on women in order to secure money, and there are other cases of what has sometimes been called "rape by fraud." I have the greatest admiration for Recorders, of whom there are many in this country, but I do not think that to depute to some hundred Recorders, of sometimes small boroughs, the determination of the proper sentence to be inflicted in these varying classes of bigamy is desirable. I think it most undesirable as a result of such experience as it has been my fortune to have in the trial of crime. The same thing applies to cases of concealment of birth. That is a crime which varies from cases where, as a result of natural shame and modesty which is almost praiseworthy, there has been some concealment of a dead body, to cases where by craft or by the natural action of decomposition a result has been achieved which hardly disguises child murder. The charge of concealment of birth is the only available one because the evidence of the greater guilt has been by these means removed. The cases are not numerous, but equally with bigamy they are cases where the greatest discrimination in sentence and uniformity of treatment are eminently desirable.
  I would only make this additional observation. I know that there has been a difference of opinion about this matter and one considerable authority suggested that this discrimination should be made by magistrates in petty sessions, committing the serious cases to Assizes and letting the less serious ones go to Quarter Sessions. All I can say is I think that is quite impossible. The petty sessions have not the knowledge of character available for them to determine any such matter when they commit for trial. For those reasons I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 13, leave out lines 11 and 12.—(Lord Roche).
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am in a position to some extent to meet the

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  argument put forward by my noble and learned friend. In so far as the Amendment relates to bigamy, I am prepared to accept it. My reasons for that are largely what he himself has given. Bigamy may, of course, as he has pointed out, be a most serious crime, and I think it is desirable that people who commit this crime should be tried with all the solemnity which is incident to an Assize, and that the public should know what a serious thing it is, particularly in the case of a man who marries an unfortunate woman who believes that he is able to contract a marriage whereas he is not. Therefore I will, as I say, accept this omission with regard to bigamy, which will mean omitting the reference to Section 57 of the Offences against the Person Act.
  But when it comes to the question of concealment of birth, great as is my respect for the knowledge and experience of my noble and learned friend, I am here able to confront him with the contrary view of a number—and, after all, numbers must be reckoned with to some extent—of very experienced persons who joined in the Report of the Quarter Sessions Committee presided over by Sir Archibald Bodkin. There was not only that gentleman, the Chairman, who is admitted to be a past master of these matters, but there were also Sir Edward Tindal Atkinson, the late Sir Henry Curtis Bennett, Mr. Justice Travers Humphreys, and others. They considered this question of concealment of birth, which, of course, is a misdemeanour, and they came to this conclusion:
  "These cases are generally pathetic in their circumstances and imprisonment is rarely ordered on conviction. Any question of murder or infanticide will have been excluded on the investigation by examining justices, if the committal for trial is for this misdemeanour only. We think that the offence is one which is entirely suitable for Quarter Sessions to deal with."
  Your Lordships will remember that this misdemeanour relates to the secret disposition of the dead body of a child in order to try to conceal the birth, whether the child died before, after or at the birth. The unfortunate women who are concerned in such cases are often women to whom may be applied the considerations with which we were dealing in this House yesterday on the suggestion of the
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  noble Viscount who happens to be an eminent doctor.
  I cannot help, though I admit I have no personal experience of the way in which these cases are dealt with under the criminal law, being of opinion that the experienced Judges and others who thought that they were eminently cases for Quarter Sessions to deal with, were right. These wretched girls, as they often are, have very seldom, as I think, committed such an offence that they ought to be dragged before an Assize Court and be tried there. The truth may very likely be that their minds have been affected by the circumstances of birth, as was explained to us yesterday in connection with the Infanticide Bill. At any rate I am not prepared on behalf of the Government to assent to the offence of concealment of birth being taken out of this Schedule. I am willing to consent to the Amendment so far as it relates to bigamy, which means that Section 57 of the Offences against the Person Act would be struck out, while the reference to Section 60 would remain.
  LORD ROCHE: I am not converted by the opinion of the noble and learned Lord, because I do not agree that this offence is always so slight. I have tried a lady who had done it on two separate occasions, in circumstances which indicated considerable guilt, and I thought it necessary and proper to treat her offence with some severity. It is not a big matter; the bigamy cases are much more important and numerous than the others. I do not think it right to occupy your Lordships' time by dividing the Committee on this Amendment, and I am prepared to accept the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, that the reference to Section 57 should be left out and the reference to Section 60 should stay in.
  THE LORD CHAIRMAN: Will the noble and learned Lord move in that form?
  LORD ROCHE: Yes. I will withdraw my original Amendment and move in that form.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 13, line 11, leave out ("Section fifty-seven and").—(Lord Roche.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Second Schedule [Consequential and Minor Amendments]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The first two Amendments are purely consequential on the Amendment to Clause 16.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 17, line 7, after ("may") insert ("within such time as may be prescribed by County Court rules").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 17, line 25, after ("may") insert ("within such time as may be prescribed by County Court rules").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There are also drafting Amendments, consequential on the Amendment to Clause 1.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 18, line 38, at end insert:
  "The Middlesex County Council Act, 1934 (24 & 25 Geo. 5. c. lxxxix).—In subsection (8) of Section ninety except so far as it applies to any salaried Chairman or salaried Deputy Chairman appointed before the commencement of this Act for the words 'in pursuance of this section' there shall be substituted the words 'on the termination of his appointment'."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  "The Hertfordshire County Council Act, 1935 (25 & 26 Geo. 5. c. cxiii).—In subsection (8) of Section one hundred and fourteen for the words 'in pursuance of this section' there shall be substituted the words 'on the termination of his appointment'."
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Third Schedule agreed to.
  Fourth Schedule [Enactments repealed]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendments to this Schedule are moved to correct drafting which is in some respects defective. They are all really drafting Amendments.
  THE LORD CHAIRMAN: As they are all drafting Amendments, perhaps your Lordships will permit me to put them en bloc.
  Amendments moved—
  Page 22, line 31, at and insert:

  '20 & 21 Vict. c. clvii.

  The Mayor's Court of London Procedure Act, 1857.

  Sections four eight, nine and ten")

  Page 23, line 3, at beginning of the third column insert:
  "In subsection (2) of Section thirty the words 'or in proceedings on the Crown side of the King's Bench Division'; in subsection (2) of Section fifty the words 'or in proceedings on the Crown side of the King's Bench Division'; in subsection (1) of Section seventy-seven the words 'with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor'; in subsection (1) of Section seventy-eight the words 'by Order in Council'"
  Page 23, line 5, at end insert:
  ("and section one hundred and ninety-six")
  Page 23, line 15, leave out ("subsection (2) except so far as it applies") and insert ("subsections (2) and (7) except so far as they apply")
  Page 23, line 24, after ("4") insert ("7").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  LORD STRABOLGI: Before we pass the Fourth Schedule, I hope I may be forgiven, as a layman, for asking the learned Lord Chancellor a question about it. If your Lordships will look at it, you will observe that it repeals parts or the whole of a number of very ancient Statutes, including a part of Magna Carta of Edward I and the whole Act 18 Edward III Statute 1, and so on. I understand that this is the result of the long researches and examination of very learned Judges. But I am a little alarmed when I see how far their repeals go back. On turning up, for example, Magna Carta of Edward I, I find that the words which it is proposed to leave out are "or be outlawed." The actual chapter I have always been told was the foundation of our liberties:
  "No freeman shall be taken, or imprisoned, or be disseised of his freehold, or his liberties, or free customs, or he outlawed, or exiled, or in any other wise destroyed; nor will we pass upon him, nor condemn him (a) unless by the lawful judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land."
  Why take out "or be outlawed"? Has outlawry ceased to exist?
  I am not quite sure. We live in funny times. You refuse people passports. As

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  I pointed out in another place one of the most important provisions of Magna Carta, the right of the citizen to leave the country freely, has been taken away. I am not so sure that you cannot outlaw people, and why take out these words? I will turn to the text one, and I will be brief, because the hour is late and we have had an interesting and illuminating discussion. I have learned more about law than I ever thought I would learn. The Statute of 18 Edward III says that "no Archbishop"—or, as a note says, "no Bishop"—"shall be impeached before our justices because of crime." That has been taken out, and so it goes on, Either these ancient Statutes have a meaning or they have not, and I think we ought to have some small comfort from the Lord Chancellor on this matter. With great respect I would rather have his opinion in this House than that of the Law Officers in another place.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think your Lordships ought to be congratulated that the members of this House carefully scrutinise the Bills which they are asked to pass, and particularly uphold the principles of Magna Carta, whenever they are attacked in any degree. If, however, the noble Lord will look at Clause 12 of the Bill he will see why the Schedule contains that provision. Clause 12 of the Bill, which at present has no Amendment, is dealing with outlawry proceedings and criminal informations (other than informations filed ex officio by His Majesty's Attorney - General) which are hereby abolished. That, at any rate, justifies the statement that the two words in Magna Carta have now become obsolete and ought to be repealed. It is a consequential Amendment, and I am instructed, although I cannot give him precisely the same exact information with regard to the Act of 18 Edward III, that the repeal of the whole of that Act is consequential on one of the clauses of the Bill which have already been passed. However, I shall be very glad to look into that, and tell the noble Lord at a later stage why an interesting relic of our law, in 18 Edward III, is now being repealed.
  LORD STRABOLGI: I am very much obliged.
  Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Title:
  An Act to amend the law with respect to Assizes and to Quarter Sessions and with respect to proceedings on the Crown side of the King's Bench Division of the High Court; to enable effect to be given to international conventions affecting English Courts; to extend the jurisdiction of County Courts and to amend the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925, and the County Courts Act, 1934; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after "1934,"to insert "to amend the law relating to appeals from the Mayor's and City of London Court." The noble and learned Lord said: There is here a consequential Amendment, having regard to the new clause which your Lordships have dealt with relating to appeals from the magistrates.
  Amendment moved—
  After ("1934") insert ("to amend the law relating to appeals from the Mayor's and City of London Court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Title, as amended, agreed to.

HAIRDRESSERS (REGISTRATION) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, this Bill has been reintroduced in a slightly different form from the Bill which I had the privilege of introducing in this House last year, and the alterations have been made to meet the objections then put forward by certain interested persons—namely, the shop assistants, the cooperators, and others. The object of the Bill is set out in an explanatory Memorandum. In a sentence it is to give the hairdressing profession an opportunity of putting its own house in order, and imposing some means of internal discipline, as is the case in other professions. May I very briefly mention the former regulations which existed. In 1461 King Edward IV granted a Charter of Incorporation to the hairdressers of the day. The principle therefore is not new, whatever the noble Earl who will reply for the Home Office may presently say. A century later Henry VIII united the hairdressers with the surgeons in the Company of the Barber-Surgeons, and that

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alliance lasted until 1745. Therefore up to 1745, under the original Charter of Incorporation under the Act of Henry VIII, there was a means of regulating the hairdressers.
To show the extent of the profession of which I am asking your Lordships to consider the needs, the 1931 census showed that there were 91,600 persons engaged in the professions of hairdresser, barber, manicurist, and chiropodist. Today, probably over 100,000 persons are so engaged. Twelve local authorities, including York, have obtained Parliamentary powers in various Parliamentary Bills to control hairdressing establishments. I submit that there is need of regulation of this industry, because the dressing of women's hair has become once again a very complicated matter, in which electrical machinery is used, and all sorts of chemicals and heating apparatus. It has become complicated, and, as your Lordships are no doubt aware, expensive, and in the hands of ignorant or unskilful people much damage can be done. I have a long list of Court cases in recent years in which heavy damages have been awarded for injury caused by negligence and so on to unfortunate people who fell into the hands of incompetent hairdressers. Every association of the hairdressing trade supports the Bill. The National Union of Distributive and Allied Workers, and the Amalgamated Union of Shop Assistants, Warehousemen and Clerks, both support the Bill. The opposition formerly offered by co-operators has been removed by alterations in the Bill.
Now let me come to the attitude of the Departments concerned, the Home Office and the Ministry of Health. I have indeed for some years been endeavouring to make contact with these Ministries to find out to what extent they would bless such a Bill, or what alterations they would want in it, or whether it could be made workable from the departmental point of view. The reply from the Ministry of Health has always been, "Let this Bill receive its Second Reading in Parliament, and then we shall be able to talk about it." All we desire is that the Bill may have its Second Reading, so that the people concerned may sit down with the very able officials of the two Ministries to see how this could be made into a workable measure. If that is done I will not put the Bill down for a further stage at
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all until it is agreed that it satisfies the requirements of the two Departments of State. I could not hope to get it through Parliament without that agreement, and if those Departments will tell us what is needed the promoters and myself undertake to do anything that is reasonable.
All we want is some means of regulating and disciplining this important profession from inside. Not only have a number of ignorant people come into the industry without proper qualifications, especially in recent years, but some undesirable characters also, who, if they had been cases of dentists, surgeons, or architects, could have been removed by the ordinary machinery of their profession. With these cases, however, the respectable hairdressers have no means of dealing; they can only be dealt with by the police, and that is not always easy. After all, the hairdresser who goes to a woman's house is in a professional capacity, and it is very desirable that people of good character should carry on this profession. Quite a number of countries have either an established apprenticeship system or some form of internal or State control, or both, and in some cases all three. The following countries have—in the case of the first one, had—some degree of State control, or else the industry itself is allowed to govern itself:—Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, Italy, Norway, Rumania, Sweden, Switzerland, the Cape Province of South Africa, and British Columbia. In all those countries there is some form of organisation, but very little exists in this country.
If your Lordships will glance at the Bill you will see that Clause 1 is the title. Clause 2 is the definition clause, the principal definition being that of "hairdressing", which has been carefully drawn so as to avoid impinging on the sphere of any other profession. Clause 3 establishes the British Hairdressing Board which is to administer the Bill, and its constitution is laid down. It is suggested that the chairman should be appointed by the Privy Council. I understand that there is an objection to that, but that is one of the matters that can be dealt with after the Bill receives Second Reading. Clause 4 provides for the appointment of officers, and Clause 5 for the establishment, within twelve months, of a register in two sections, of hairdressers for men and hairdressers for

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women. It is very necessary to have a register of hairdressers. Clause 6 defines the methods of admission. It is not proposed to deprive any one of his or her living. Any one who has practised for five years will automatically be admitted to the register. Those in practice for a lesser period, mostly young people, are given two years in which to satisfy the Board of their proficiency. Clauses 7 and 8 enable the Board to remove the names of unfit persons from the register, with a right of appeal to the High Court. Clause 9 provides for the issue of certificates of registration, while Clause 10 prescribes the maximum fees chargeable. It is estimated that in practice the annual fee will only be £1masters and 10s. for assistants. This is considered to be enough to meet the costs of administration and instruction, and also to provide a substantial margin for the development of training facilities, which are badly required.
Clause 11 restricts the right to sue for charges to those who are on the register, with an exception for medical practitioners. Clause 12 prohibits the practice of hairdressing or the use of the name of hairdresser to unregistered persons after January 1, 1940. Without this prohibition the Bill could not be made effective. I am quite prepared however, to extend the date, if necessary. Clause 13 empowers the Board to approve schools and training centres. Clause 14 deals with penalties, following the lines of similar previous Acts. Clause 15 enables the Board to make the necessary regulations, including those prescribing standards of hygiene and sanitation, and the regulations they make must be approved by the Minister of Health and laid before Parliament for twenty-one days before becoming operative. Clause 16 envisages the possibility of an inquiry into the economic position of the trade. That is particularly desired by masters and assistants alike. Clauses 17 to 21 cover details of administration. Clause 22 safeguards the existing rights of doctors and chemists. The First Schedule I have dealt with under Clause 3, and the Second Schedule prescribes the types of certificates to be issued under Clause 9. I would ask the Government and the House to allow the Bill to have a Second Reading, so that it can be further dealt with and any necessary alterations made
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to make it a workable and beneficial measure. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I hope the noble Earl who will reply for the Government will not accede to the Second Reading of this Bill. I was approached just: before the debate began by the Institute of Trichologists, who gave me a large number of reasons why this Bill should not be accepted. The institute are strongly opposed to the Bill, not only on the ground that it would be prejudicial to their members, but on the larger ground that it would be contrary to the public interest, which it is the aim of the institute to protect and foster. Under this Bill it would be open to persons registered as hairdressers to hold themselves out as treating the diseases of the hair and scalp, and the fact that they were entitled by Statute to call themselves registered hairdressers would result in the public—knowing nothing of the statutory definition of hairdressing—assuming that all registered hairdressers were fully qualified to diagnose and treat such maladies. In other words, the passing of the Bill would involve the granting of an implied statutory guarantee of efficiency in trichology to all those registered as hairdressers under it, irrespective of their qualifications, or lack of them. The result of this would be that the public would assume that all registered hairdressers were qualified to carry out the various skilled treatments of the hair and scalp for which extensive and highly specialised knowledge and training, such as are possessed by members of the institute, are essential. The passing of the Bill would also prevent the members of the institute from practising as trichologists unless they became registered hairdressers.
LORD ELTISLEY: My Lords, perhaps I might be permitted to ask one or two questions, as the noble Lord who introduced this Bill with his usual courtesy and Parliamentary experience appeared to me to gloss over some of the difficulties with which it seems to be surrounded. I do not quite know what is meant by a hairdresser. Is any individual who cuts hair at any time for a fee a hairdresser? And will it be an offence for such a per

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son to undertake to cut another person's hair if he has not been registered? The reason why I ask these questions is that in rural areas, particularly in outlying villages, there are men who call themselves hairdressers and just cut their neighbours' and their friends' hair, generally for the price of a glass of beer; in other words, just out of courtesy. Will those men in future be debarred from rendering that very necessary service to their neighbours? As I read the Bill, such action will be subject to a fine of £100 every time such a man cuts his neighbour's hair. I do not know whether I read the Bill aright. Again, what will be the position of the lady's maid who attends to her lady's hair? Has she got to have a qualification as a registered hairdresser before she can carry on these domestic duties? I must apologise for asking these questions, to which there may be a very good answer, but it is not at all clear. Many of us would be in complete accord and sympathy with any measure which betters conditions of employment, hours of labour, and so on. Possibly the law wants strengthening in certain of these respects, but I do hope that those who live in rural areas will not be caught in this net and obliged to register before carrying out this necessary service for their friends and neighbours.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I have been asked to state the views of His Majesty's Government on this Bill, a measure which concerns both my right honourable friends the Minister of Health and the Home Secretary, and a Bill which in fact seeks to apply to the hairdressing trade restrictions similar to the most severe applied to doctors, dentists, midwives, nurses, and a host of other important occupations. Noble Lords will have read in the explanatory Memorandum the main justifications for the introduction of this Bill, and the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading explained the general contents of the measure to your Lordships. One of the reasons which prompted the promoters to proceed with this measure was that they thought it necessary to remove dangers to the health of their customers caused by either the introduction of untrained or incompetent persons or the unsatisfactory conditions of hygiene and sanitation in many of these hairdressing establishments. It is proposed in this Bill,
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as I see it, to set up machinery involving heavy burdens on central Departments and to inflict heavy penalties on unregistered persons practising the hairdressing trade. These proposals can only be justified by reasons of health, and, after listening carefully to the remarks of the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading, I do not think I could agree that injury to health results or may result from unregulated hairdressing. I believe there is no such health problem as would justify the very far-reaching proposals contained in this Bill. If any control is necessary on the grounds of health, I am advised that forty-seven local authorities are already empowered under local Acts to make by-laws for securing the cleanliness not only of the hairdresser's premises but also of the instruments and materials he might use. We believe that this existing machinery is fully adequate to deal with the problem of health.
The Memorandum further refers to the need for better training of hairdressers. I do not think I could agree that this affords sufficient reason for the very drastic provisions of the Bill and for the setting up of a Board with such immense powers as outlined in the measure. As advised, I have every reason to believe that such a scheme as this would work very severely and very harshly, particularly in the case of hairdressers who earn their living in the working-class districts of this country. The Government have every reason to sympathise with the desire of trades and professions to improve their status, but we are not satisfied that there is any sufficient public interest at stake to justify the stringent statutory restrictions on the right to practise this ancient craft. I, too, see difficulties such as were outlined by my noble friend behind me, but in view of the proposals the noble Lord has asked your Lordships to approve we thought it would be more appropriate that we should leave this Bill to the free vote of your Lordships, but at the same time it is only fair and right to inform the noble Lord that the Government will have to vote against the Second Reading.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, raised a question about the trichologists. Last night I received at my house a similar protest from the trichologists. I did not

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know there was that opposition. I have sent it to the promoters of the Bill, who have their organisation, and I am sure they will do their best to meet the position and satisfy the trichologists. With regard to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Eltisley, he asked about the man who cuts his friend's hair. I suppose he was thinking of the farmer's wife cutting her son's hair round a pudding basin and that sort of thing. We have an Act registering and regulating the practice of dentistry, and yet I would not be surprised if the noble Lord, when he was young, pulled out one of his own teeth or even pulled out a brother's tooth or that his father might have pulled out his son's tooth when it was loose. Is he therefore practising as a dentist and liable to pains and penalties for not being registered as a dentist?
LORD ELTISLEY: The service I was referring to is being performed for payment, but it is not a whole-time job.
LORD STRABOLGI: Exactly. There would not be any sort of objection to these people. They are covered by the Bill. The noble Lord asked what the definition of "hairdressing" was. That appears at the top of page 2 of the Bill, and it includes all the various services which are performed in hairdressing establishments. The man who does that kind of work in the village will not have his livelihood taken away from him at all.
With regard to the noble Earl who speaks for the Home Office and who said that in the opinion of the Minister of Health there was absolutely no danger to health, I have in front of me a number of cases in the Courts for damages because of neglect and particularly in respect of permanent wave burnings. This year alone, 1938, I have these three cases. In Clerkenwell County Court in January, before Judge Earengey, damages of £40 were given for burning of the head by incompetent assistants. In Whitechapel County Court in the same month, before Judge Lilley, damages of £15 were given, and in the King's Bench Division last month, before Mr. Justice Singleton, damages of £275 were given for the burning of the head during permanent wave operations by incompetent people. I have a list of a great number of cases of damage caused by the use of improper dyes during last year and some this year. Very many of these cases are undoubtedly
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injurious to health, and these are only the ones that come into Court. I really think that the case for the Bill on the ground of the health of the people is a strong one. However, the Government will not support the Second Reading, and in those circumstances I have no chance of getting the Bill through in this particular Session. We shall have to renew our efforts to get a Bill that will pass. Under those circumstances I do not propose to put your Lordships to the trouble of a Division.
On Question, Motion negatived.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments.
Clause 15:
Power of Board of Trade to alter quotas by order.
(3) This section shall not authorise the making of an order—

(i) altering any of the proportions prescribed by Part I of the First Schedule to this Act to a proportion being, in relation to long films, less than twenty per cent. or more than thirty per cent. or, in relation to short films, less than ten per cent. or more than twenty per cent., or

(ii) altering any of the proportions prescribed by Part II of the said Schedule to a proportion being, in relation to long films, less than fifteen per cent. or more than thirty per cent. or, in relation to short films, less than seven-and-a-half per cent. or more than twenty per cent.

LORD MOYNE LORD MOYNE had given Notice of Amendments, in subsection (3), to alter the limits in paragraph (i) in relation to short films from "ten per cent." and "twenty per cent." to "fifteen per cent." and "thirty per cent." respectively, and to substitute for the limits in paragraph (ii) in relation to short films "twelve-and-a-half per cent." and "thirty per cent." in place of "seven-and-a-half per cent." and "twenty per cent." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am afraid the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will think me rather a nuisance for bringing forward Amendments on each stage, but it is not altogether a matter of choice, because the most important part of this Bill is in the tail, and until we knew the final form of the Schedule as applied to the short film quotas it was impossible to lay down an appropriate margin of discretion to the Advisory Committee and the President of the Board of Trade to vary the quotas as

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laid down in the Schedule. The limit which I propose in these Amendments is that the short film quota could not be put down below the lowest figure in the Schedule, which is 15 per cent. for the renter and 12½ per cent. for the exhibitor, or put higher than 30 per cent. for both. It is the same figure as applies to the renter in the case of long films.
I do not think there ought to be any difficulty about this proposal. It is in no way obligatory on the President of the Board of Trade to vary these quotas. It is merely an option, and I think that it would have been very much better if we had had no Schedules and had left the matter, as the Departmental Committee recommended, to be settled year by year according to the output of the British film industry by the Board of Trade with necessary advice. However, as that solution was not found acceptable, it is clearly advisable that there should be as much elasticity as we can provide, because it is impossible to say what will be the condition of the industry for so long as ten years ahead, and in view of the fact that this is in no way a compulsory clause I hope that the Government will see their way to accept the four Amendments which I have put down. I beg to move the first one standing in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 8, leave out ("ten") and insert ("fifteen").—(Lord Moyne.)
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, my noble friend said he hoped I would not think him a nuisance for bringing forward Amendments at every stage. Of course there is no thought of that kind in my mind as regards the Amendments which he has brought forward to-day. They are consequential on the Amendments to the Schedule which were carried on the Report stage. That was, indeed, arranged with my noble friend the Secretary of State the other day. I have, however, to say this, that while the Government accept these Amendments my noble friend must understand that I accept them without prejudice to what may happen to these Amendments and to the Schedules in another place.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MOYNE: My Lords, I beg now to move the other Amendments standing in my name on this clause.
Amendments moved—
Page 19, line 8, leave out ("twenty") and insert ("thirty").
Page 19, line 13, leave out ("seven-and-a-half") and insert ("twelve-and-a-half").
Page 19, line 14, leave out ("twenty") and insert ("thirty").—(Lord Moyne.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 16 [Restriction on blind booking]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the Amendment in the name of my noble friend Viscount Swinton to this clause is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 36, leave out ("section") and insert ("subsection").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25 [Conditions governing registration of British films as quota films]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the Amendment to this clause down in the name of my noble friend is also drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 9, leave out ("section") and insert ("subsection").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 33:
Wages and conditions of employment of persons employed by makers of cinematograph films.
33.—(1) The wages paid by any person carrying on in Great Britain the business of a maker of cinematograph films to persons employed by him in connection with that business, and the conditions of employment of persons so employed, shall, unless agreed upon by the employer and by organisations representative of the persons employed, be not less favourable to the person employed than the wages which would be payable, and the conditions which would have to be observed, under a contract which complied with the requirements of any Resolution of the House of Commons for the time being in force applicable to contracts of Government departments; and if any dispute arises as to what wages ought to be paid, or what conditions ought to be observed in accordance with this section, it shall, if not otherwise disposed of, be referred by the Board of Trade to the Industrial Court for settlement.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "a maker of cinematograph films" and insert "making films to which this Act applies". The noble Lord said: My

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Lords, with your permission I will explain shortly this Amendment and the Amendment on Clause 43, page 43, line 27, which comes later on. The alteration of the words in this and the other Amendment I have mentioned is designed to give effect to the promise made by my noble friend the Secretary of State on the Report stage to the noble Lord opposite and to my noble friend Viscount Bridgeman. They make clear the position of laboratory workers engaged in processing cinematograph films covered by the Act. The amended definition in Clause 43 will now include in the making of a film not only the processing of the negative but the processing of any positives prepared for the assistance of the producer of the film in deciding upon his final negative. Clause 33 as proposed to be amended covers the wages paid by any person carrying on the business of making films to which the Act applies. As "making" by the Amendments proposed in Clause 43 includes the processing of the negative and the making of the positives used in the preparation of the final negative, the fair-wage clause will apply to persons employed on such work whether in the studio itself or by an outside processing firm. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 33, leave out from the first ("of") to ("to") in line 34 and insert ("making films to which this Act applies").—(Lord Templemore.)
LORD STRABOLGI: May I thank the noble Lord for this Amendment. I understand from those who speak for the laboratory workers organised in their union that they are satisfied with this. I think this makes the fair-wage clause as watertight as an Act: of Parliament can make it, and it will be of great value to a very skilled body of men working in the laboratories who need something of this sort for their protection.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I should also like to say that I am much obliged to the noble Lord. As the clause now stands it has drawn the line between the essential processes connected with the production of the film and the processes connected with the duplication of the film in a place where it is very much easier to recognise than it was previously.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40:
The Cinematograph Films Council.
(2) It shall be the duty of the Board of Trade to satisfy themselves, with respect to any person whom they propose to appoint under paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection to be a member of the said Council ….
Provided always that no person who has been convicted of an offence under the Act of 1927 or this Act shall be eligible for appointment to the said Council, or may continue to act as a member of the said Council without the written authority of the Board of Trade.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in the proviso in subsection (2), to leave out "Provided always that no" and insert "The Board of Trade shall not appoint to be a member of the said Council any." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment and the two Amendments which follow it are consequent on the promise made by my noble friend the Secretary of State to the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, on the Report stage two days ago. I think this is a more convenient form of the provision, and I hope my noble friend will agree. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 33, leave out ("Provided always that no") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Templemore.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I entirely agree with what my noble friend has said. It is a more convenient form. Perhaps I may be permitted to take this opportunity of thanking the two noble Lords who have conducted the Bill for the great courtesy they have shown even in circumstances which to them were trying.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in the proviso in subsection (2), to leave out all words after "Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 35, leave out from the beginning of line 35 to the end of line 37.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the next Amendment is also consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 39, line 32, at end insert ("Provided that if any member of the said Council is convicted of an offence under the Act of 1927 or this Act his office as a member of the Council shall forthwith become vacant").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 41 [Institution of proceedings and service of notices]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 39, line 41, leave out ("notice or other document") and insert ("process").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 43 [Interpretation]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 27, after ("positives") insert ("intended for public exhibition").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before seven o'clock.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for the following Bill ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bill:

Oxford Corporation (Electricity).

And that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petitions for additional provision in the following Bills:

Middlesex County Council (Sewerage),

London and North Eastern Railway ought to be dispensed with:
Read, and agreed to.

OXFORD CORPORATION (ELECTRICITY) BILL. [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day), and react 1a.
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  PETITION FOR ADDITIONAL PROVISION.
  Examiners' Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday next.
WEST SURREY WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
BOMBAY, BARODA AND CENTRAL INDIA RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.