Sitting of 26 July 1938

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Brighton Corporation (Transport) Bill,
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th July.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means (Captain Bourne): The effect of some of the Amendments is to increase the obligations of the promoters as to rendering accounts; the remainder are of a protective or drafting nature.
Lords Amendments agreed to.
Canterbury Gas and Water Bill,
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th July.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means: The Amendments consist of a protective Clause and two drafting Amendments.
Lords Amendments agreed to.
Green Belt (London and Home Counties) Bill,
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th July.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means: The Amendments comprise a Clause varying the restrictions imposed on
2872
the exercise of the powers of the Bill in relation to land situate outside the county. The remaining Amendments are of a drafting nature.
Lords Amendments agreed to.
Lee Conservancy Catchment Board Bill,
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th July.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means: The majority of these Amendments consist of protective Clauses, and the rest are of a drafting nature.
Lords Amendments agreed to.
London Passenger Transport Board Bill,
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th July.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means: The Amendments consist of a number of protective Clauses; the elimination of one of the trolley vehicle routes originally proposed to be authorised; and Amendments of a consequential or drafting nature.
Lords Amendments agreed to.
Middlesex County Council (Sewerage) Bill,
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th July.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means: The Amendments consist of a provision for the partial cesser of the powers of the County Council in the event of works not being completed within a specified time; the requirement of the approval of the Ministry of Health to certain agreements

2873
between the County Council and local authorities; a number of protective Clauses; and drafting Amendments.
Lords Amendments agreed to.
Workington Corporation Bill,
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th July.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means: The Amendments consist of the confirmation of an agreement between the Corporation and the Woodpulp Company for the supply of water to the Company by the Corporation; an obligation on the Corporation to supply gauges, etc.; protective Clauses; and drafting Amendments.
Lords Amendments agreed to.
Middlesex County Council (General Powers) Bill [Lords] (King's Consent signified),
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Nottingham Corporation Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Stockton-on-Tees Corporation Bill [Lords] (King's Consent signified),
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Penzance Corporation Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered:
Ordered, That Standing Orders 240 and 262 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.—[The Deputy-Chairman.]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Salford Corporation Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered.
The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means: Two of the Amendments are purely drafting and the third is the deletion of an unnecessary definition.
Amendments made.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 240 and 262 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.—[The Deputy-Chairman.]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
West Yorkshire Gas Distribution Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 240 and 262 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.—[The Deputy-Chairman.]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Mid-Staffordshire Joint Hospital District) Bill,
Ordered, That so much of the Lords Message [21st July] as relates to the Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Mid-Staffordshire Joint Hospital District) Bill be now considered.—[The Deputy-Chairman.]
So much of the Lords Message considered accordingly.
Ordered, That if, in the next Session of Parliament, a Bill shall be presented, entitled "A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Mid-Staffordshire Joint Hospital District," then, provided such Bill shall be the same in every respect as the Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Mid-Staffordshire Joint Hospital District) Bill as passed by this House during the present Session, such Bill shall be deemed to have been read the First and Second time and to have been ordered to be read the Third time, and shall be recorded in the Votes as having been read the First and Second time and as having been ordered to be read the Third time, and that no new fees shall be charged.
Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.—[The Deputy-Chairman.]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Island of Arran Piers Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

ALIENS (NATURALISATION).
Address for
"Return showing (1) Particulars of all Aliens to whom certificates of naturalisation have been issued and whose oaths of allegiance have, during the year ended the 31st day of December, 1937, been registered at the Home Office; (2) Information as to any Aliens who have, during the same period, obtained Acts of Naturalisation from the legislature; and (3) Particulars of cases in which certificates of naturalisation have been revoked during the same period (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 162, of Session 1936–37)." —[Mr. Lloyd.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  COAL INDUSTRY.

    EXPORT TRADE.
    Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the Secretary for Mines the policy of His Majesty's Government in relation to the proposal laid before him in the joint deputation of the miners and mineowners he received on 13th July?
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Secretary for Mines whether, having regard to the fall of over 1,000,000 tons in our coal exports in the first six months of 1938 as compared with the first six months of 1937, he is taking any steps, in consultation with the representatives of the industry, to prevent a further fall in the coal export trade?
    The Secretary for Mines (Captain Crookshank): The proposal laid before me was that the Central Scheme in force under the Coal Mines Act, 1930, should

    Period

    Estimated Output of Saleable Coal in Great Britain.

    Quantity of Coal exported from the United Kingdom to Countries in the British Empire.

    Quantity of Coal exported from the United Kingdom to Foreign Countries.

    Tons.

    Tons.

    Tons.

    Year ended 30th June, 1937.

    234,300,000

    4,967,000

    31,832,000

    Year ended 30th June, 1938.

    236,900,000

    5,070,000

    34,218,000

    INDUSTRIAL DISEASES.
    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Secretary for Mines the number of fatal and disablement cases of certifiable industrial diseases among coal miners in 1937; and
    be amended to enable a levy to be made on all coal produced in Great Britain, the proceeds to form a Trade Maintenance Fund which could be used as necessary to assist the sale of British coal, in particular in export markets. The Government are now giving consideration to this proposal which was only transmitted to me a fortnight ago and, of course, raises wide issues. The Government, however, recognise the difficulties that are being experienced in the export trade, and are determined to stand behind the coal industry in its efforts to secure its fair share of the coal export markets.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary for Mines whether he will give, separately, the total quantity of saleable coal raised in Great Britain for the two years ended to the last convenient date, and state the quantity exported from this country, either to countries in the British Empire or to foreign countries, during that period?
    Captain Crookshank: As the reply involves a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Day: Is it not the fact that the figures show a constant decrease, and are the Government, doing anything to improve the position?
    Captain Crookshank: The hon. Gentleman must look at the figures when he gets them, and also remember what I said in reply to the first question.
    The information is as follows:
    whether these figures reveal any increase in the incidence of any particular industrial disease as compared with recent years?
    Captain Crookshank: As the reply includes a statistical table I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. In reply to the last part of the question, there are substantially fewer cases of nystagmus, there is some increase in the other diseases and a substantial increase in the cases of beat knee.

    Following are the numbers of new cases of industrial disease amongst miners for which compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Acts was paid during each of the years 1934 to 1937 None of the cases in 1937 was fatal.

    Year

    New cases of industrial diseases amongst miners.

    Nystagmus.

    Beat Hand.

    Beat Knee.

    Beat Elbow.

    Synovitis.

    Other Diseases.

    Number.

    Rate per 1,000 persons employed.

    Number.

    Rate per 1,000 persons employed.

    Number.

    Rate per 1,000 persons employed.

    Number.

    Rate per 1,000 persons employed.

    Number.

    Rate per 1,000 persons employed.

    Number.

    Rate per 1,000 persons employed.

    1934

    …

    1,745

    2.2

    1,200

    1.5

    3,686

    4.7

    554

    0.7

    328

    0.4

    70

    0.1

    1935

    …

    1,839

    2.4

    1,189

    1.5

    4,149

    5.4

    581

    0.8

    358

    0.5

    105

    0.1

    1936

    …

    1,522

    2.0

    1,197

    1.6

    4,523

    5.9

    628

    0.8

    347

    0.5

    101

    0.1

    1937

    …

    1,l65

    1.5

    1,212

    1.5

    4,848

    6.1

    700

    0.9

    373

    0.5

    129

    0.2

    Particulars of cases of silicosis were given to the Hon. members in reply to a Question on 8th April last.

    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Secretary for Mines whether any cases have been brought to his attention in which men employed in mechanised coal faces have been disabled by diseases of the nervous system, attributed to the effects of machine-mining; and whether there has been any special investigation of this problem and with what result?
    Captain Crookshank: No evidence of cases of this kind has been brought to my notice, and, so far as I am aware, the only special investigation is one being made by the Safety in Mines Research Board into the question of noise, and the means by which it can be reduced.

    HOLIDAYS WITH PAY.
    Mr. Hepworthasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that the Denby Grange Collieries, Limited, Yorkshire, have notified one of their employes of their intention to deduct one-sixth of his holiday payment on account of his being absent from work for two days
    Miss Ward: Is my hon. and gallant Friend considering the report of the Home Office on this matter of nystagmus?
    Captain Crookshank: Yes, Sir. It is the practice of all Government Departments to consider the reports of other Government Departments.
    Miss Ward: May we have an early answer?
    Following is the table:
    during the four weeks ended 25th June, and that the employé was gassed twice during the Great War; and, if so, will he take the matter up with this and other companies to avoid such deductions from ex-service men who were wounded in the War?
    Captain Crookshank: Holidays with pay at the colliery referred to result from an agreement between the West Yorkshire Coal Owners' Association and the Yorkshire Mineworkers' Association. The agreement provides machinery for dealing with disputes as to its application.

    SOUTHERN RHODESIA.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs how many natives and coloured people, respectively, are employed in Government service in Southern Rhodesia; in what grades are they employed; and what pensions are payable in each case?
    The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Lord Stanley): I am not in possession of separate figures of native and coloured persons respectively employed in Government service in Southern Rhodesia, but the number of the non-European staff provided for in the Southern Rhodesia Estimates for the current year (excluding casual employés) amounts to 3,684. These include members of the British South Africa Native Police, messengers, interpreters, prison guards and other natives employed on miscellaneous duties. The grant of pensions and gratuities is governed by regulations issued in Government Notice No. 385 of 1932, which provide, on the usual conditions, for a pension at the rate of one-sixtieth of pay for each completed year of continuous service.
    Mr. Mathers: Are both types covered in the same way?
    Lord Stanley: The types mentioned in the question.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, seeing there are no secondary schools for coloured children in Southern Rhodesia, such children are admitted into secondary schools along with children of Europeans?
    Lord Stanley: I understand from the Governor of Southern Rhodesia that the schools for coloured children at Salisbury and Bulawayo provide secondary education to standard 7 which is equivalent to three years before matriculation standard, and that Government grants, covering the total cost of board and tuition, are also awarded to promising coloured children for further secondary education at Kimberley or Cape Town.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Can the right hon. Gentleman state the age to which coloured children are kept at school? Is it an elementary school or a secondary school?
    Lord Stanley: It is an elementary school.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Can they not provide some form of secondary education in Southern Rhodesia?
    Lord Stanley: I will call the attention of the Government of Southern Rhodesia to that point, but they meet it by sending promising coloured children to these schools at Kimberley and Cape Town.
    Colonel Wedgwood: That is not much good.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what is the old age pension rate for white people, coloured people, and natives, respectively, in Southern Rhodesia; and whether the coloured wife of a white man obtains the pension on the basis of her husband's qualification and race?
    Lord Stanley: The maximum rate of old age pension which may be granted to a white pensioner under the Southern Rhodesia Old Age Pensions Act is £48 per annum. The corresponding rate in the case of a coloured pensioner is £24 per annum. The Act does not provide for the grant of old age pensions to natives. I have no information in regard to the point raised in the second part of the question, but I am informed that it may be assumed that such a case is seldom, if ever, likely to arise.
    Mr. Mathers: Does the Minister recognise that here is a possible refutation of the claim by the Dominions Office and the Colonial Office that there is no colour bar in British territory?
    Mr. H. G. Williams: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has any legislative authority with regard to old age pensions in Southern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Gallacher: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the amount paid to old age pensioners in Southern Rhodesia is about double what is paid to old age pensioners in this country?
    Mr. H. G. Williams: On a point of Order. May I ask the extent to which we are entitled to ask questions on matters which are within the competence of the Government of Southern Rhodesia and not within the competence of the Secreteary of State for Dominion Affairs?
    Mr. Speaker: The question on the Order Paper asked for information, but the supplementary questions have encroached upon questions which are solely the responsibility of Southern Rhodesia.

    SOUTH-WEST AFRICA.
    Mr. Thurtleasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been called to the criticisms

    2881
    of the work of missionaries among the natives of South-West Africa contained in the recent report of the Union Government to the League of Nations which states that the economic conditions of Christianised natives is inferior to that of the others, and that the last two famines have proved conclusively that the Christians' kraals are the first to need assistance; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    Lord Stanley: I assume that the hon. Member refers to an expression of opinion by an official of the South-West Africa Administration in relation to a particular Reserve in the Territory which is quoted in the report recently submitted to the Council of the League of Nations by His Majesty's Government in the Union of South Africa. The question what action if any is required is one for His Majesty's Government in the Union of South Africa who exercise the mandate in respect of South-West Africa.
    Mr. Thurtle: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it is clear from this report that Christianity has decided disadvantages for these unfortunate natives?
    Lord Stanley: I would call the attention of the House to the fact that that is an expression of the opinion of an individual.
    Mr. Barr: Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly consider where Africa would have been but for the work of David Livingstone and his successors, and will he consider, also, whether this question and report are not actuated by malice against Christianity?

  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    REGISTER (TRANSFERS).
    Mr. Manderasked the President of the Board of Trade what transfers of shipping have taken place to and from the British register during the last six months?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley): The reports received by the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen show that, during the six months ended 30th June last, 207 ships purchased from foreign countries were registered as British ships, and 141 ships sold to foreign countries were removed from the register.
    Mr. Gibson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what ports were involved in the matter?
    Mr. Stanley: I cannot do so without notice.
    Mr. Marcus Samuelasked the President of the Board of Trade whether there are any regulations to prevent British ships being transferred to foreign ownership; and whether the foreign ships which have recently been transferred to the British flag can with equal facility be re-transferred to foreign ownership?
    Mr. Stanley: There are in peace no regulations which prevent any British ship, whether or not she has previously been in foreign ownership, from being transferred to foreign owners.
    Mr. Mander: Does it not seem to be likely that a number of ships will be transferred to the flags of countries which are giving protection to their shipping?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Can my right hon. Friend say which countries are giving their ships protection?
    Mr. Stanley: Except this country, I do not know of any.

    STEAMSHIP "KNOWLGROVE."
    Mr. Benjamin Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the circumstances of a recent voyage of the steamship "Knowlgrove" from Sunderland to Lerwick; that this vessel, with a load of coal, took six days over a passage which normally occupies from 36 to 40 hours and was out of communication when anxiety arose as to its safety and during bad weather and fog had been steaming around for four days with no definite knowledge of its bearings, which were only established after contact had been made with a German trawler: and that Lerwick was eventually reached after directional assistance had been given by two other vessels; and whether, in the interests of maritime efficiency and safety, he will state whether the ship in question was commanded by a certificated officer or otherwise?
    Mr. Stanley: I understand that the facts are generally as stated. The master of the vessel has been in the employ of his present company for 25 years and has acted as master for 10 years. He is not certificated. The delay was caused through the master not securing charts to cover the whole of the voyage. Being unable to fix his position, partly owing

    2883
    to fog, he preferred not to risk his vessel and consequently lost a good deal of time in reaching his destination safety.
    Mr. Smith: Is the Minister aware of the fact that he accosted three other ships and asked for directional assistance before he got to Lerwick, and will the right hon. Gentleman insist that all coast-wise ships shall carry certificated masters?
    Mr. Stanley: I do not know whether the word "accost" is a correct term; but the fact is that this delay occurred because the master acted in the interests of safety, and there was nothing to lead one to believe that because he was not certificated he endangered the safety of his vessel.
    Commander Marsden: Is it not the case that in the weather which is described in the question it would not have made the slightest difference whether a certificated officer had been there or not?

    VESSELS (INSANITARY CONDITIONS).
    Mr. Windsorasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware that, during 1937, of 6,664 vessels subjected to sanitary inspection by the Hull and Goole port health authority 1,67o were found to have defects; and whether, in view of the fact that in only 423 instances were the defects rectified, he will consider the advisability of strengthening existing powers for ensuring proper standards of maritime hygiene;
    (2) whether he is aware that of 597 British ships inspected by the Hull and Goole port health authority during 1937 and found to have defects in their crews' quarters as regards bad ventilation, insufficient lighting, both natural and artificial, the absence of flanges for stove pipes, the unsatisfactory arrangement of bunks, insufficiency of heating, and water-closets without water supply, only 43 of such defects were remedied; and whether he will initiate measures to secure a more rigid compliance on the part of shipowners with the rulings of responsible medical authorities;
    (3) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that during 1937, as the result of inspections undertaken by the Hull and Goole port health authority, 869 British vessels were found to have defects of dirt, vermin, and other conditions prejudicial to health, and that in 91 instances
    2884
    the conditions remained unchanged; and whether he will take such steps as will secure the observation of essential standards of cleanliness on all British ships?
    Mr. Stanley: The port health authorities have full powers under the Public Health Acts to require the abatement or themselves abate on ships within their districts insanitary conditions or other nuisances injurious to health. The duty of seeing that crews' quarters are kept in a fit condition falls primarily upon the master as representative of the owners, and in this connection I would refer the hon. Member to paragraph 30 of the Crew Space Instructions of 1937, of which I am sending him a copy. I may add that the Shipping Federation and the National Union of Seamen have recently set up a joint committee to consider methods of improving the standard of comfort and cleanliness in crews' accommodation. As regards structural defects, close co-operation is maintained between officers of port health authorities and Board of Trade surveyors, and in appropriate cases suitable measures are taken under the Merchant Shipping Acts.
    Mr. Benjamin Smith: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the Act ships can be detained until such work as is essential for the health of the crew has been completed, and having regard to the stupendous number of ships allowed to proceed to sea under unhealthy conditions will he see that this is remedied?
    Mr. Stanley: As I have pointed out, port authorities have these powers, and I would call attention to the fact that this report was made by the health authority of the port.
    Mr. Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman notify the health authorities of these powers, and then find out what it means to have 3,000 ships held up in the course of a year?
    Viscountess Astor: Will the right hon. Gentleman impress upon port authorities that it is their duty to hold up ships until conditions are satisfactory? The whole country is aroused by the appalling conditions on some of our ships.
    Mr. Muff: Will the right hon. Gentleman also impress on shipowners that it is their duty to see that the rules are carried out?

    COMPANIES ACT, 1929.
    Mr. Liddallasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will note to include in any amendment of the 1929 Companies Act a clause to forbid a director of a limited liability company acting also as a trustee for the debenture holders in the same company; and will he ask the committee of the London Stock Exchange whether they can discourage this practice pending legislation?
    Mr. Stanley: The point referred to by my hon. Friend has been noted for consideration when amendment of the Companies Act is under review, and I think we must await the results of the examination of the subject which will then be made.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    COTTON INDUSTRY.
    Major Procterasked the President of the Board of Trade what representations have been made to him by any section of the cotton trade to reduce the importations of yarn, made-up garments, and textile piece goods into Great Britain in view of the recent increase in these imports.
    Mr. Hamilton Kerrasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has given any consideration to the possibility of quantitative restriction upon the imports of cotton textile manufactures entering this country; and whether, in view of the recent increase in such imports, he will investigate this method of dealing with the problem at the earliest opportunity?
    Captain Sir William Brassasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the widespread anxiety felt by producers in the textile industry, as well as by makers-up, at the rapid growth of the imports of piece goods and made-up garments; and whether he will consider the possibility of some form of restriction upon the quantities of such goods to be imported?
    Mr. Stanley: My attention has recently been drawn to this matter by the Joint Committee of Cotton Trade Organisations in conjunction with certain other textile interests. As I have pointed out on previous occasions, it is always open to the interests affected to apply to the
    2886
    Import Duties Advisory Committee for increased measures of protection. I have no power to impose quantitative limitation on these imports; but with regard to certain of them I understand that proposals are under consideration for conversations between the industrial interests concerned in the various countries with a view to arranging for the better regulation of the market. I know of instances in other industries where such arrangements have been successful, and I hope it will be found possible in this way to avoid the need for other action.
    Major Procter: May I ask whether any representation has been made to the Import Duties Advisory Committee, and, if not, can my right hon. Friend explain the foolishness of the cotton trade in not using the means that the Government have provided to help the cotton trade?
    Mr. Stanley: On several occasions, in answer to questions on this subject, I have pointed out the possibility of application to the Import Duties Advisory Committee; but, as far as I am aware, no application has yet been made by the industry to that body.
    Sir W. Brass: Is my right hon. Friend ready to encourage these talks between importers and manufacturers through his Department?
    Mr. Stanley: Yes, most ready. If there is any way in which I or my Department can be of any assistance I shall be only too glad to offer it.
    Mr. A. Reed: Are not many of these applications to the Import Duties Advisory Committee hampered by our trade agreements and the most-favoured-nation treaties?
    Mr. Burkeasked the President of the Board of Trade what discussions have taken place between representatives of His Majesty's Government and representatives of the Egyptian Government now in this country regarding the recently increased tariffs on cotton exports from this country, and with what result?
    Mr. Hamilton Kerrasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to make any further statement with regard to the Anglo-Egyptian conversations on the subject of British cotton exports to Egypt?
    Mr. O. Stanley: Discussions with the Egyptian Government are still proceeding, and I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Burke: Did the right hon. Gentleman hear the statement of his colleague the Secretary for Mines on a previous question to the effect that the Government would stand behind the coal industry in its attempt to secure a share of the markets of the world? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman endorse that statement in regard to the cotton trade?
    Mr. Stanley: The fact that we have done for the cotton trade what we have not done for any other, that is, to impose a quota on the Colonial Empire, is an earnest of the desire of the Government to help the cotton export trade.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Will the same earnest desire be expressed with regard to the jute trade?

    Table showing the total quantity and the average declared value of the imports into the United Kingdom of the undermentioned description of tissues wholly of artificial silk consigned from(a)Japan(including Formosa) and (b) other countries during the years 1936 and 1937.

    —

    Quantity.

    Average declared value.

    1936.

    1937.

    1936.

    1937.

    1,000 square yards.

    1,000 square yards.

    Pence per square yard.

    Pence per square yard.

    Tissues, wholly of artificial silk, exceeding 12 inches in width, not bleached, dyed or printed—

    Consigned from Japan

    626

    674

    3.4

    3.6

    Consigned from other countries

    127

    391

    13.5

    13.9

    Mr. Burkeasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the monthly average, in yards, of grey cotton piece-goods imported into this country in 1936, 1937 and the monthly average for the present year; and what percentage of these averages came from Japan?
    Mr. Stanley: The average monthly imports into this country of grey cotton piece-goods during the years 1936 and 1937 and the six months ended June, 1938, amounted to 1,884, 1,748 and 2,208 thousand square yards, respectively; the proportion consigned from Japan (including Formosa) was 79, 89 and 87 per cent., respectively.
    Mr. Burkeasked the President of the Board of Trade the amount of grey rayon cloth imported from Japan in 1936 and 1937, together with the average price per yard of this cloth compared with the average price of grey rayon cloth imported from other countries?
    Mr. Stanley: The precise information desired by the hon. Member is not available, but I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing such particulars as can be obtained.
    Mr. Burke: Is the statement with regard to grey rayon cloth similar to the one with regard to piece goods, which shows that the price of finished grey cloth is 7d. from Japan as compared with is. 8d. from other countries?
    Mr. Stanley: Obviously it is not the same price, but it also shows that the prices of Japanese goods are lower than those of other countries.
    Following is the statement:
    Mr. Burke: Has there not been a considerable revival in the first two months of this year of the exports of grey goods from Japan, and that out of 23,000,000 square yards, 2,200,000 were from Japan; and that they have captured a considerable margin of trade in various parts of the world, where their goods are going as finished goods?
    Mr. Stanley: I would refer the hon. Member to the answers I have given to other hon. Members.
    Major Procter: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that these goods which are printed in this country are not permitted to go to the Colonial Empire as British goods?

    ESSENTIAL COMMODITIES RESERVES (MUTTON).
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the serious position of sheep producers, owing partly to the increase in the number of ewes, by 500,000 and to the fact that farmers have been forced by the shortage of grass to throw their stock on the market, he will consider the possibility of the purchase of British mutton to place in cold storage for an emergency?
    Mr. Stanley: As I have explained on previous occasions, I am unable to give any indication, in advance, of purchases of commodities under the Essential Commodities Reserves Bill. I might mention, however, that owng to the cost of storage and turnover, mutton is not entirely suitable for inclusion in the Government's scheme of food reserves.
    Sir A. Knox: Would not the adoption of the suggestion give the Board of Trade an opportunity at long last of doing a good turn to British agriculture?
    Mr. Stanley: I must remember that my primary duty is to use the money entrusted to me under this Act to the best possible advantage for building up reserves of commodities in this country.
    Mr. Dalton: Will the right hon Gentleman remind the sheep producers that the Prime Minister is of opinion that more food should not be grown in this country, and then we should not have all these troubles?
    Mr. Stanley: I need not remind the sheep farmers of that, because it is not the opinion of the Prime Minister or of the Government.

    RUSSIA.
    Commander Marsdenasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the serious adverse balance of this country's trade, to which the Federation of British Industries has recently called the Government's attention, steps will be taken to negotiate a new trade agreement with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, under which the object of the 1934 trade agreement, namely, the increase of the purchase by Russia of British-manufactured goods, will be accomplished in place of being evaded by Russia as at present?
    Mr. Stanley: I would refer to the answer which I gave the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles (Captain Ramsay) on 21st June.
    Mr. A. Bevan: On a point of Order. May I direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the end of the question and to ask whether it is in order for an accusation of that sort to be levelled at a country with whom we are on friendly terms?
    Mr. Speaker: I wish the House would always conform to the rule not to do so.

    ANGLO-AUSTRALIAN DISCUSSIONS.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement respecting the recently concluded Anglo-Australian trade talks; and whether he contemplates a further revision of the Ottawa articles?
    Mr. O. Stanley: I would refer the hon. Member to the White Paper (Cmd. 5805) issued on 20th July setting out the conclusions reached in the trade discussions between representatives of His Majesty's Governments in the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth of Australia. The position is that the Ottawa Agreement will remain in force for the time being.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the fact was implied in the progress of these talks, that the Ottawa Agreements would be under revision?
    Mr. Stanley: I do not understand the hon. Member's question, but the course of the negotiations and the results are fully set out in the White Paper.

    LAMB (PRICES).
    Sir Percy Hurdasked the President of the Board of Trade the wholesale and retail prices, respectively, in London, of first quality English lamb and first quality Canterbury lamb, respectively, at the latest available date as compared with the corresponding date of last year?
    Mr. Stanley: The average wholesale price of first quality English lamb in London during the week ended 20th July, 1938, was 10d. per lb., as compared with 0½d. per 1b. in the corresponding week of 1937. The average wholesale price of first quality New Zealand lamb was 8d. per 1b. in both weeks. There are no official quotations of retail prices of lamb,

    2891
    but retail prices of English lamb at certain London stores last week ranged from 6 per cent. to 3o per cent. lower than in the corresponding week of 1937, while there was little change in the retail prices of Canterbury lamb.
    Sir P. Hurd: Has the attention of the Food Council been called to the curious discrepancies which arise?
    Mr. Stanley: I will bring the matter to their notice.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    GAS MASKS (OFFICERS AND NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS).
    Mr. De Chairasked the Secretary of State for War whether experience has shown that officers and non-commissioned officers have difficulty in issuing words of command, when wearing a gas mask, which would be distinctly audible at a reasonable distance under war conditions?
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): The wearing of gas masks is not the only condition in war which makes verbal commands inaudible at relatively short distances. In cases where commands cannot be conveyed by word of mouth they are conveyed by signal.
    Mr. De Chair: Will the right hon. Gentleman discuss this question with the Home Secretary, because under air-raid precautions conditions it may not be possible to instruct a large public on these signals? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would answer a few questions in this House in a gas mask? He would then see what I mean.

    AIR ATTACK (PROTECTIVE DEVICES).
    Mr. Bevanasked the Secretary of State for War what developments have occurred in the device known as the Rocket as a means of defence against air attack?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: All known devices which promise protection against air attack will continue to be the subject of research and experiment and, where desirable, of development.

    YOUNG MARRIED SOLDIERS.
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for War how many soldiers on the
    2892
    unauthorised married establishment are now serving at home; what is the average sum these men receive weekly; and what rent they are actually compelled to pay?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: There is no unauthorised married establishment. The number of soldiers under 26 years of age serving at home and known to be married was under 3,500 on 1st April last. Their emoluments varied, of course, according to their rank and qualifications. They were all entitled to accommodation and subsistence for themselves. I am not in a position to answer the last part of the question.
    Sir A. Knox: Are we to understand that these 3,000 young soldiers have no accommodation for their wives?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The hon. and gallant Member knows that from the question he has put.
    Sir A. Knox: Surely it would be better not to accept these young married men in view of the terrible conditions under which they are living, some of them being without sufficient food?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: These young men, for the most part, have married since they joined the Army.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the scandalous conditions under which these men's wives live? Is he aware of the level which the scandal has reached around Aldershot, where they have to pay the most exorbitant rents?

    ENLISTMENT.
    Mr. Kennedyasked the Secretary of State for War the number of applicants for enlistment in the Army this year who were unemployed at the date of their application for enlistment?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Of the 32,555 applicants for enlistment during the first six months of this year, 8,916 were unemployed at the time of their application.
    Mr. Kennedy: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with a method of enlistment which depends to a certain extent on industrial needs?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I think the figures show the contrary.
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for War the total number of applicants

    2893
    for enlistment and of acceptances in the quarter ended 30th June, 1938; how these numbers compare with the figures for the same quarter of 1937; and whether it is anticipated that the estimated shortage of 62,000 will be made up by 31st March, 1939?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: In the June quarter of this year there were 15,584 applicants for enlistment. The corresponding figure for the same quarter of last year was 11,663. 10,233 recruits were finally approved in the June quarter this year, as compared with 5,517 in the same period last year. Never before in a June quarter has such a high total been reached. If this rate of intake were roughly maintained for the rest of the year, the shortage remaining on the 31st March next would be under 20,000, and not 62,000 as mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Sir A. Knox: Is it not a fact that on 31st March last, there was a shortage of 22,000 and that it was estimated that 32,000 men go on to the Reserve this year? Will there not therefore still be a shortage next year?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to consider the answer, which is perhaps more satisfactory than he realises.

    CHINA (FORCES).
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will give the strength of the British forces at present in China and the particulars he has of the Volunteer Force in Shanghai?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The strength of the British, including Indian and Colonial, troops in the Shanghai, Tientsin and Hong Kong areas on 1st July was 445 officers and 8,083 other ranks. I understand that on 1st September last the strength of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps was 214 officers and 2,267 other ranks.
    Mr. Day: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the percentage of British volunteers in that Force?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Not without notice.

    UNDER-AGE RECRUITS.
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for War the number of recruits who have enlisted into the Army during the three years ended on the last convenient
    2894
    date whose ages, subsequent to their enlistment, have been proved to be under 18 years; and the number of these who have been released, either on compassionate grounds or by purchase?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: May I send the hon. Member a copy of the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the Attercliffe division of Sheffield (Mr. C. Wilson) on 7th July which contains the fullest information possessed by my Department.
    Mr. Day: What amount do the parents have to pay to obtain the release of their sons who have joined the Forces by giving a false age?

    ACCIDENT, CATTERICK.
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can give any information in connection with the death of Lance-corporal Cecil Langton, who was killed on the training grounds of the Royal Tank Corps at Catterick, Yorkshire; and whether any other soldiers were injured?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: During an exercise with troops on 20th July, a tracked training vehicle overturned, involving most regrettably the death of Lance-Corporal C. J. Langton. The other occupant, Private H. Bailey, sustained minor injuries.

    BREN GUNS (CANADA).
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that the purchase price of the Bren guns ordered in Canada will be £76 each, and that the profit on the manufacture of the guns will be £53,400, what steps were taken to safeguard the interests of the British taxpayer when the contract was made?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The figures given in the question relate to an order placed by the Canadian Government, not to an order placed by the United Kingdom Government. As regards the latter, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to his question on 21st July.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any figures regarding the order for Bren guns for this country placed in Canada to show how they compare with the prices of Bren guns manufactured in this country?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: On that general question, I understand that there is a question addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Thursday next, which involves general policy.
    Mr. Bellenger: What system will be adopted for checking the cost of these Bren machine guns? Will the same procedure be adopted as is adopted in this country with regard to British manufactures?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: It is the usual form of contact with the usual safeguard.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Have steps been taken to ensure that the profit on the Bren guns ordered by the British Government in Canada will be less than the very high profit on Bren guns ordered by the Canadian Government for their own purposes?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I think all these figures are open to the Public Accounts Committee. It is very difficult to enter into details regarding the contracts.

    DISABILITY PENSIONERS (FUNERAL EXPENSES).
    Miss Wardasked the Secretary of State for War in what circumstances a grant is made from Army funds towards the funeral expenses of a disability pensioner?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: As from 30th April last provision, I am glad to say, is made for the payment of a grant up to £7 10s. towards the funeral expenses of an Army disability pensioner whose death is due to a disability attributable to military service. If, in such a case, the pensioner dies while undergoing authorised hospital treatment, his funeral, if the relatives so desire, can be arranged by the military authorities in the same way as if he had died while serving.
    Viscountess Astor rose—
    Mr. Speaker: I must point out that we are behindhand with questions, and ask hon. Members as far as possible to limit their supplementary questions.

    YOUTHS ON PROBATION (ENLISTMENT).
    Mr. Morganasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is at present some difficulty in persuading the authorities to accept as recruits youths who are on probation; and
    2896
    whether he can arrange that in future youths who are on probation should be permitted to enrol, in all suitable cases, in order that they may have an opportunity of rehabilitating themselves?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Account is taken of the nature of the offence for which each applicant was put on probation and of the report of the probation officer.

    NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE INSTITUTE.
    Mr. Porrittasked the Secretary of State for War the number and percentage of ex-service men employed by the Navy, Army, and Air Force Institute?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Exclusive of the senior administrative and supervisory staff, I understand that about 1,200 men, being some 45 per cent. of the adult male staff, are ex-service men. Negotiations are in progress with a view to increasing the number of ex-service men employed by this corporation.
    Mr. Porritt: In view of the fact that this institute caters for ex-service men entirely, surely it is time that the percentage of ex-service men employed should be 100 per cent.?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: That is the purpose of the negotiations which I have initiated, and which seem to promise well.

    STRAITS OF GIBRALTAR (GUN BATTERIES).
    Mr. Arthur Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for War the countries of origin of the howitzer and other heavy guns which have been installed since July, 1936, in the vicinity of Algeciras and on the African coast opposite Gibraltar?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The guns are of various countries of origin, but my information is not of a kind which could be made the basis of an authoritative and detailed statement.
    Mr. Henderson: Is the Minister aware that the Spanish Government have officially stated that many of these guns are of German origin?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The Spanish Government may officially state something about guns that are not in their possession, but I should not like to take the same risk.
    Mr. Dalton: Is it not very desirable that the House should have information about the nationality and place of origin of these guns, in view of the threat which many of us believe is offered to Gibraltar and our communications through the Straits? Why can we not have a straight answer?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Any information which I give must presumably be authoritative, and I do not wish to commit myself to statements which may not be authoritative.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the nationality of the engineers, officers and personnel who mounted these guns?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: That does not arise.
    Mr. Henderson: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    FOREIGN POLICY AND DEFENCE.
    Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the serious situation in Europe, Palestine and the Far East, he contemplates consultation with the Opposition parties with a view to united action in the realm of Defence and foreign policy?
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave him on 18th November and 16th March last, to which I have nothing to add.
    Mr. Mander: Would not the best contribution to national unity be the resignation of the Prime Minister himself?

    RAE COMMITTEE'S REPORT.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether the House will have an opportunity to discuss the report of the Rae Committee?
    The Prime Minister: Until the report of the Committee has been received, I am not in a position to make any statement.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: May I ask whether, in the event of this Committee reporting during the Recess and executive
    2898
    action being taken on the report, the House will nevertheless have an opportunity to debate the report in due course?
    The Prime Minister: I cannot give a pledge about that. I have not considered it.

  SCOTLAND.

    ECONOMIC AND AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT.
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Prime Minister whether he now intends to set up a Royal Commission to investigate and report on the economic and agricultural development of Scotland?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. As at present advised, I am not satisfied that there are sufficient grounds for the appointment of a Royal Commission such as is suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Davidson: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Secretary of State for Scotland is advised by 14 different kinds of committees in Scotland, that the last Royal Commission on Scottish affairs was in 1892, and that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is still under that Gladstonian atmosphere?
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has now received the report of the Sub-Committee of the Economic Committee of the Scottish Development Council; and has he any statement to make?
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the report of the Highlands and Islands Committee will be published this Session and at what date?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Colville): I am informed that the report of the Highlands and Islands Sub-Committee of the Scottish Economic Committee is at present being finally adjusted and will be submitted to the Committee at an early date.
    Mr. Davidson: Can we expect a statement from the Minister on this question early in the next Session?
    Mr. Colville: I should expect so.

    GILMOUR COMMITTEE'S REPORT.
    Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he

    2899
    can now make a statement on the Government's policy with regard to the Gilmour Committee's report?
    Mr. Colville: I hope to be in a position to make a statement on this subject on Thursday next.
    Mr. Davidson: In view of the fact that the Scottish "Daily Herald" indicates that this is Home Rule for Scotland, will the right hon. Gentleman take the first opportunity of denying it?

    HOUSING.
    Mr. Erskine Hillasked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) whether he will consider giving subsidies to local authorities which will enable them to utilise old but reconditioned buildings with a view to housing the working classes in the neighbourhood in which they are accustomed to live; and, in the event of wider powers being necessary to enable him to grant such subsidies, will he take steps to get increased powers;
    (2) whether he is willing to give subsidies to recondition houses condemned in their present state and to establish the same principle under which subsidies are given or are to be given in rural neighbourhoods either for building new houses or for reconditioning old ones?
    Mr. Colville: The Associations of Local Authorities have submitted representations on this subject which are now being considered in connection with the negotiations now proceeding with regard to the revision of housing subsidies.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: In giving consideration to this question, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the natural preference of people who are affected by these demolition schemes, to be rehoused wherever practicable in the area in which they have been accustomed to live?
    Mr. Colville: I think that certainly is being borne in mind.
    Mr. Mathers: Will the right hon. Gentleman also keep in mind the fact that, very often, this reconditioning is to meet a temporary need only?

    LICENSING CASE, FIFE.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the circumstances which brought about
    2900
    the decision not to proceed with the case against a publican in Miltown of Balgonie after a summons had been issued for a breach of regulations; and whether the breach of regulations is still being persisted in?
    The Lord Advocate (Mr. T. M. Cooper): A report was made to the local Justice of the Peace Fiscal in March, 1938, of an alleged contravention of Section 65 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, by the occupier of this public house. Investigations failed to disclose sufficient evidence to justify proceedings, and the charge had, therefore, to be dropped. I have no reason to believe that any breach of the licensing laws is still taking place.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that there is considerable uneasiness in regard to this affair, and a feeling that some wires are being pulled somewhere, and will he take steps to ensure that nothing of that sort is happening?

    DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE LAND (DAMAGE BY GAME).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland over how many of the 439,252 acres of land held by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland sporting facilities are let to third parties; what safeguards are provided to protect agricultural tenants thereon against depredations and / or the results of depredations by game; and whether, in particular, such tenants are accorded the right to destroy deer found on their land doing damage there?
    Mr. Colville: Sporting facilities over 421,685 acres owned by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland are let to third parties. The interest of the Department's agricultural tenants in regard to destruction of game and compensation for damage are protected by the Ground Game Act, the Agricultural Holdings Act. and the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act. With regard to the last part of the question, where deemed necessary and practicable the rights to destroy deer on their holdings have been conferred upon tenants on the Department's estates.
    Mr. Gibson: To what extent has the power last referred to by the right hon. Gentleman been made operative?
    Mr. Colville: I could not give the acreage.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (CONSULTATION).
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he intends to set up a permanent advisory committee on Scottish affairs composed of Scottish local authority representatives?
    Mr. Colville: I am anxious to secure the closest possible contact with local authorities in Scotland; and I shall be glad to consider any suggestions which local authorities or their associations may care to make for improving the existing facilities for consultation with them.
    Mr. Davidson: Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind at the same time the fact that the suggestion involved in this question has been supported by Scottish Members of Parliament of all parties in this House?
    Mr. Colville: I will bear all relevant considerations in mind.

    BENMORE ESTATE (BLAIRMORE PIER).
    Mr. Macquistenasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, in view of the fact that the proprietor of the castle and estate of Benmore gifted said subjects to the Forestry Commission and included therein all the feu duties or ground rents and certain piers, that the Commission accepted the gift and took possession of the subjects and drew revenue from the piers, but in the case of one of them, Blairmore Pier, refrained from keeping it in repair and have now decided to shut it, causing serious loss to the properties of the tenants or vassals of the donor of the estate, what steps does he propose to take to remedy the position that has arisen from the decision to close this pier?
    Colonel Sir George Courthope (Forestry Commissioner): It is not a fact that the feu duties or ground rents at Blairmore, Strone, and Kilmun, which are the only villages on the estate of Benmore, were gifted to the Forestry Commission. They received three piers, but expenditure on repairs has exceeded the revenue from the piers, although the Commission are not legally liable for their maintenance. The Commission have been advised that Blair-more Pier must be closed unless extensive and expensive reconstruction is undertaken. This they are not prepared to undertake, as the other piers on the estate at Kilmun and Strone will continue to be
    2902
    available. The former was repaired in 1927 at the cost of £2,700. The latter was rebuilt in 1930 at the cost of £3,500, and expenditure of £775 on repairs has recently been authorised.
    Mr. Macquisten: Is it not a fact that Benmore house and gardens were given for the purpose of afforestation, that they are supported by the ground rents and are now occupied by students learning afforestation, and that the magnificent gift was given by the late Mr. Younger, who never expected that his tenants would be done down like this and that the piers which they did repair are not accessible for many days of the year while Blair-more always is accessible; and is the action of the Commission in shutting it not a shocking piece of ingratitude?

    CANCER RESEARCH.
    Mr. W. H. Greenasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, as representing the Lord President of the Council the amount of public grant made during the last 12 months towards the cost of cancer research involving experiments on living animals; and the amount granted in respect of such research not involving such experiments?
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Earl Winterton): The amount expended by the Medical Research Council from public funds during the last financial year on investigations into the nature and cause of malignant disease and methods for its treatment was approximately £6,000, in addition to which valuable quantities of radium were lent to hospitals for this purpose. It is not practicable, however, to give separately the cost of such parts of this work as involved experiments on animals.

    INCOME TAX (FARM LOSSES, RELIEF).
    Mr. De Chairasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total of agricultural losses claimed by individuals against Income Tax or Sur-tax in each of the years 1931 to 1938?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): As the answer contains a table of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    Relief in respect of farm losses may be allowed either by way of discharge of Income Tax assessments or by way of repayment. No statistics are collected of the relief by way of discharge: the only information available relates to the amount of income on which repayment was made in respect of farming loss or diminution of income, and the figures for the years in question are as follow:

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Year in which repayment made.

    Amount of Income.

    £

    1931–32

    2,874,000

    1932–33

    3,474,000

    1933–34

    3,668,000

    1934–35

    3,198,000

    1935–36

    2,494,000

    1936–37

    2,164,000

    1937–38

    2,114,000

    It should be borne in mind that the repayments in a given year relate mainly to losses incurred in the preceding year.

    ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY (BOTTLEPARTIES).
    Mr. Peatasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that there are very many bottle-parties providing to the public every night elaborate and expensive entertainment in respect of which no Entertainments Duty is demanded or paid; and whether he is proposing to take any steps to recover the tax in respect of such payment and thereby remove the unfair advantage which bottle-parties enjoy in that respect over entertainments conducted according to law?
    Sir J. Simon: This matter is receiving consideration.
    Viscountess Astor: Will my right hon. Friend consider the need for taxation of clubs as well as of bottle-parties?
    Sir J. Simon: I understand my hon. Friend to ask whether clubs as well as bottle-parties would be under review; the answer is that this matter is under consideration.
    Viscountess Astor: Will the Chancellor bear in mind that it is no good dealing with bogus clubs unless he deals with other clubs?

    GOLD (HOARDING AND SPECULATION).
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the raising of the ban on the lending by banks against gold has resulted in considerable gold hoarding and gold speculation; and whether he will consult with the Bank of England with a view to reimposing the ban?
    Sir J. Simon: I am not aware that advances against gold are causing any disturbance in the market, and I see no occasion to reimpose the restriction.
    Mr. Strauss: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that recent disturbances of the movements in regard to gold have been largely caused by the removal of this ban, which was originally imposed by the Bank of England at the suggestion of the Treasury, and is it not desirable to reimpose it?
    Sir J. Simon: I think that if the hon. Member will refer to the answer which I have given, he will see that my information is that there is no reason to think that advances against gold are causing any disturbance in the market.

    NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
    Mr. H. G. Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the fall in revenue which has taken place during the present financial year, he will state what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take to check expenditure, national and local, which is chargeable to revenue?
    Sir J. Simon: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement I made on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill on 15th July.
    Mr. Williams: As there has been a further fall in revenue since the right hon. Gentleman made that statement, can he not now give some indication of what steps he is proposing to take to prevent a crisis arising next year?
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the people of this country will not stand for any economies at the expense of the social services while immense profits are being made out of armaments?
    Mr. Louis Smith: Is not the right hon. Gentleman alarmed, as most industrialists are, at the increasing adverse balance of trade in this country, and will he do something about it?
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the Chancellor bear in mind the fact that the people of this country expect an increase in the old age pension?
    Mr. H. G. Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what steps he proposes to take to control Admiralty expenditure in future, having regard to the fact that the cost of converting the "Majestic" was £472,056, as compared with the sum of 150,000 originally suggested by the Admiralty to the Treasury;
    (2) whether his attention has been drawn to the high cost of the educational services in the three defence services; and whether he will consider the desirability of appointing a committee to inquire into the cause of this high cost?
    Mr. Kennedyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the report of the Committee of Public Accounts in which grave uneasiness is expressed as to the machinery of financial control at the Admiralty; and what action is being taken to remove the cause of that uneasiness?
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the large differences disclosed between the estimated and actual costs of conversion of both the trawler "Vulcan" and the "Majestic," he can take steps to ensure that in all future estimates more exact figures are made available to the Treasury in the first instance?
    Sir J. Simon: The matters referred to in these questions all arise out of, or are closely related to, the observations contained in the second report from the Committee of Public Accounts, 1938. This will be considered without delay, and, as is usual, a Treasury Minute dealing with the various matters raised in the report will be laid before the Committee, and will no doubt be published by the Committee in due course.
    Sir Percy Harris: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that our checks on this very large expenditure on armaments are
    2906
    sufficient to prevent a repetition of incidents of this character, which have alarmed the public and which suggest great possibilities of waste?
    Sir J. Simon: This is a case in which the original Estimate was substantially exceeded, and that is the subject of the observations in the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. As I have said the report is under consideration by the Treasury by whom these reports always are considered. Naturally any comments by the Committee of Public Accounts are of particular interest and value to the Treasury
    Sir P. Harris: But is it not a fact that the report of the Public Accounts Committee always comes too late and after the damage has been done; and will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it is not possible, in view of the enormous expenditure which is now going on, to improve the system of checks?
    Sir J. Simon: I am as much interested in providing additional checks as anybody in this House could be, but it does not necessarily follow that in the particular instance to which the Committee has called attention the explanation is to be found in an absence of checks.
    Mr. Lyons: When can we expect to have a statement of the evidence given to the Committee by whom this matter was discussed?
    Sir J. Simon: I will make inquiries and let my hon. and learned Friend know. I cannot give an answer now.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Is not the only check to have an efficient Minister in the Defence Department?
    Mr. H. G. Williams: On a point of Order. May I point out that no answer has been given to Question 58, which has no relation to the report of the Public Accounts Committee. May I ask the Chancellor for an answer to that question?
    Sir J. Simon: That question was included with others in the answer which I have just given, though I appreciate my hon. Friend's point that it does to some extent deal with a rather different subject matter. I am not prepared to undertake to appoint a committee to inquire into this particular matter.
    Mr. Thurtle: Is not this another proof of the inefficiency of the Treasury?
    Sir Stanley Reedasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been directed to the Second Report from the Committee of Public Accounts drawing attention to the wide gap between the estimates for the conversion of the former White Star liner "Majestic" (£140,000— £612,056) and the trawler "Vulcan" (£27,000—£50,697) and the actual costs incurred, and recommending that the existing arrangements for financial criticism and control at the Admiralty should be carefully examined to secure that they operate effectively at all stages; and will he take measures to initiate a costing system not only in the Admiralty but in all the spending Departments?
    Sir J. Simon: I am aware of the terms of the report to which my hon. Friend refers, and I would refer him to the answer which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams) and other Members. I am not sure what precisely my hon. Friend has in mind in referring to costing systems in this connection, but I can inform him that such systems are already extensively employed in the Admiralty and in other Departments where it is advantageous to do so.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (1) whether his attention has been directed to the second report from the Committee of Public Accounts; and what steps does he propose to take to deal with the issues raised and to prevent a repetition of the same;
    (2) whether he will make a statement on what action he proposes to take to carry out the suggestions made on pages 22 and 23, paragraph 34, dealing with the purchase of plant and machine tools, contained in the second report from the Committee of Public Accounts?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Euan Wallace): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which has just been given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams) and other hon. Members and which indicated the procedure which will be followed in connection with the report from the Committee of Public Accounts.
    Mr. Attlee: Is it not the case that all these replies relate to the past and that what hon. Members are asking is what steps are being taken now to check this expenditure?
    Captain Wallace: If the right hon. Gentleman had listened to my right hon. Friend's answer I think he would see that steps for the future are referred to in it.
    Mr. E. Smith: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman himself satisfied with the answer which was given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
    Captain Wallace: I am afraid that is not a question which ought to be addressed to me.
    Mr. Duncan: Is it not the case that there is a committee in being which looks after existing expenditure, namely, the Select Committee on Estimates, on which there are Members of the party opposite; and will my right hon. and gallant Friend hasten this year's report of that committee?
    Mr. E. Smithasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been directed to pages 22 and 23, paragraphs 34 and 35, of the second report from the Committee of Public Accounts; what plant, etc., consisting of proprietary articles were bought at makers' list prices; can he state the names of the firms from which the proprietary articles were purchased or are to be ordered; whether the prices have been checked, how they compare with other prices; arid is it intended to give consideration to the possibility of making arrangements under which the reasonableness of prices could be more definitely checked?
    Captain Wallace: Yes, Sir; and, in reply to the last part of the hon. Member's question I would refer to the answer which I have just given to him regarding the procedure to be followed in connection with the report in question. To give the information asked for in the remaining parts of his question would involve such extensive and detailed inquiries in the three Defence Departments that I do not think I should be justified, at this time, in asking them to incur the resulting expenditure of time and labour. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that all

    2909
    relevant information will be at the disposal of the Treasury in considering the observations of the committee on these matters.
    Mr. Smith: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware of the widespread suspicion which prevails throughout the country, particularly among people who are closely in touch with these questions; and can he inform the House whether it is the case that a committee has been set up consisting of machine tool manufacturers and whether this committee is composed of people who are responsible for importing certain machines into this country?
    Captain Wallace: I could not answer that question without notice.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman make inquiries from members of his own party about this matter?

    HACKNEY CARRIAGES AND PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLES (COMMITTEE).
    Mr. Crowderasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Departmental Committee on competition between private-hire vehicles and taximeter-cabs will be able to present an interim report before the adjournment for the Recess on the position in London as affecting the taximeter-cab trade?
    Earl Winterton: My right hon. Friend understands that the committee will not be able to present an interim report before the House adjourns for the Recess. The committee was appointed only three weeks ago, and the witnesses who wish to appear before them have riot all been able to complete the preparation of their evidence in time to be heard before the Recess.
    Mr. Crowder: Does my Noble Friend know whether or not the Committee will sit during the Recess?
    Earl Winterton: I imagine that it will, but I should require to have notice of that question.

    SAVERNAKE FOREST.
    Sir Percy Hurdasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners,
    2910
    under what conditions affecting public access the Forestry Commission are taking over Savernake Forest?
    Sir G. Courthope: In the event of the Forestry Commissioners acquiring Savernake Forest, sympathetic consideration will be given to questions of public access.
    Sir P. Hurd: In the event of the Commissioners taking over the forest, will care be taken to preserve the character of the forest as a beech forest and as one of the features of the English scene?
    Sir G. Courthope: Yes, Sir. In the event of the legal formalities being completed and our taking a lease of the forest, we have arranged to consult with the local committee of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and to use every endeavour to regenerate the old forest by natural means, to get the natural regeneration of trees already there.

    AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
    Mr. Duncanasked the Home Secretary when the survey now being undertaken by the local authorities in London of basements in connection with air-raid precautions will be completed; and whether he will publish the results of this survey?
    Earl Winterton: Substantial progress has been made in London with the survey for public shelters. My right hon. Friend is not in a position to say when the work, which presents many novel problems, will be completed; but he will certainly take an opportunity of making a statement upon the results in so far as they may lend themselves to any general statement.

BILLS PRESENTED.

  PREVENTION OF FRAUD (INVESTMENTS) BILL,
  "to provide for regulating the business of dealing in securities; to restrict the registration of societies under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893; to make general provision for preventing fraud in connection with dealings in investments; and to provide for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Stanley; supported by

  2911
  the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Samuel Hoare, Mr. Colville, the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate, and Mr. Cross; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 230.]

  PROHIBITION OF VIVISECTION ON DOGS (SCOTLAND) BILL,
  "to provide for the abolition of vivisection on dogs; and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. Mathers; supported by Mr. Cassells, Mr. Groves, Mr. Thomas Henderson, Mr. Leonard, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore, and Mr.
  Westwood; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed.[Bill 231.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Motion made, and Question put,
  "That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, Supplementary Estimates for New Services may be considered, and that Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock."—[The Prime Minister.]
  The House divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 132.

  Division No. 327.]

  AYES.

  [3.46 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  De Chair, S. S.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  De la Bère, R.

  Hunter, T.

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (So'h Univ's)

  Denville, Alfred

  Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Dodd, J. S.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Donner, P. W.

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Assheton, R.

  Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Dower, Major A. V. G.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Soottish Univs.)

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

  Kimball, L.

  Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Duggan, H. J.

  Latham, Sir P.

  Barrie, Sir C. C.

  Duncan, J. A. L.

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Dunglass, Lord.

  Leech, Sir J. W.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Birchall, Sir J. D.

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Lyons, A. M.

  Bessem, A. C.

  Elliston, Capt. G. S.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Boulton, W. W.

  Elmley, Viscount

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Beyee, H. Leslie

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Brass, Sir W.

  Erskine-Hill, A. G.

  McKie, J. H.

  Briseoe, Capt. R. G.

  Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Everard, W. L.

  Maitland, A.

  Brown Rt. Hon. E. (Lelth)

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

  Fleming, E. L.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Bull B. B.

  Fox Sir G. W. G.

  Markham, S. F.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Marsden, Commander A.

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Furness, S. N.

  Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

  Butcher H. W.

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Butler, R. A.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Gluckstein, L. H.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

  Cary, R. A.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Granville, E. L.

  Morgan, R. H.

  Cayzer Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Cazalet, Thelma(Islington, E.)

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

  Channon H.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Rador)

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Chapman, Sir S. (Edingnurgh, S.)

  Guiness, T. L. E. B.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Christie, J. A.

  Hambro, A. V.

  Patrick, C. M.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Hannan, I. C.

  Peake, O.

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Peat, C. U.

  Colville, Rt. Hon. John

  Harbord, A.

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Conant Captain R. J. E.

  Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

  Peters, Dr. S. J.

  Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

  petherick, M.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Pilkington, R.

  Cooper, Rt. Hon. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

  Porritt R. W.

  Cox, H. B. Trevor

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

  Hepworth. J.

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Crookshank, Capt. M. F. C.

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Davies, Major Sir C. F. (Yeovil)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Rayner, Major R. H.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Touche, G. C.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Shepperson, Sir E. W.

  Train, Sir J.

  Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

  Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

  Turton, R. H.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Smith, Sir Louis (Hallam)

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Rowlands, G.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

  Rusell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld)

  Wells, Sir Sydney

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Salt, E. W.

  Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Sandeman, Sir N. S.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Sandys, E. D.

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Wise, A. R.

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Scott, Lord William

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Selley, H. R.

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Captain Dugdale and Mr Munro.

  NOES.

  Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

  Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

  Quibell, D. J. K.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Ridley, G.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Hardle, Agnes

  Riley, B.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  Ritson, J.

  Banfield, J. W.

  Hayday, A.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Barr, J.

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  Batey, J.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Rothschild, J. A. de

  Bellenger, F. J.

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Sexton, T. M.

  Benson, G.

  Jagger, J.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Bevan, A.

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Simpson, F. B.

  Broad, F. A.

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Bromfield, W.

  John, W.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Brown, C. (Mansfield)

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

  Buchanan, G.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Burke W. A.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Serensen, R. W.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Stephen, C.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lathan, G.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Collindridge, F.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Daggar, G.

  Leonard, W.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Dalton, H.

  Logan, D. G.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Lunn, W.

  Thorne, W.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  McEntee, V. La. T.

  Thurtle, E.

  Day, H.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Dobbie, W.

  MacLaren, A.

  Tomlinson, G.

  Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

  Maclean, N.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Ede, J. C.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwollty)

  Marshall, F.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Mathers, G.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Gallacher, W.

  Maxton, J.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Gardner, B. W.

  Messer, F.

  White, H. Graham

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Montague, F.

  Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v n)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Muff, G.

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Gibson R. (Greenock)

  Noel-Baker, P.J.

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Owen, Major G.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Paling, W.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Pearson, A.

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M ddl'sbro, W.)

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemswerth)

  Poole, C. C.

  Mr. Groves and Mr. Anderson.

  First Resolution read a Second time.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to,—
  Naval Discipline (Amendment) Bill,
  Land Drainage Provisional Order (Louth Drainage District) Bill, without Amendment.
  Amendments to—
  Young Persons (Employment) Bill[Lords], without Amendment.

  OFFICIAL SECRETS ACTS.
  Leave given to the Select Committee to make a Special Report.
  Special Report brought up and read as followeth:
  Your Committee find themselves unable to complete their inquiry before the Summer Adjournment. They are of opinion that it is advisable to report upon the statement of the hon. Member for

  2915
  Norwood and the action of the Ministers concerned, and upon the matter referred to their consideration by the Instruction of the House of the 19th day of July before proceeding to consider the general question of the applicability of the Official Secrets Acts to Members of the House in the discharge of their Parliamentary duties. They therefore request that the House will be pleased to give their leave to sit notwithstanding the Adjournment of the House, and to report their observations upon the matters referred to their consideration and the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time. Your Committee think that they will be in a position to make a report upon the former questions within a short time.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [20TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  REPORT [25th July].
  Resolutions reported,

  SUPPLY.
    CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1938.

      CLASS II.
      1."That a sum, not exceeding £71,143, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
      2. "That a sum, not exceeding £837,138 (including a Supplementary sum of £35,195), be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the expenses in connection with His Majesty's Embassies, Missions and Consular Establishments Abroad, and other expenditure chargeable to the Consular Vote; certain special grants and payments, including grants in aid; and sundry services arising out of the war."

      CLASS VI.
      3. "That a sum, not exceeding £143,804, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the salaries and expenses of the Mines Department of the Board of Trade."
    CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1938.

      CLASS I.
      4. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,516,733, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class I of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      House of Lords Offices

      27,802

      2.

      House of Commons

      310,802

      3.

      Registration of Electors

      195,000

      4.

      Treasury and Subordinate Departments (including a Supplementary sum of £3,175)

      257,804

      5.

      Privy Council Office

      10,264

      6.

      Privy Seal Office

      4,147

      7.

      Charity Commission

      26,392

      8.

      Civil Service Commission

      11,800

      9.

      Exchequer and Audit Department

      94,065

      10.

      Friendly Societies' Deficiency

      5,500

      11.

      Government Actuary

      21,127

      2932

      £

      12.

      Government Chemist

      55,438

      13.

      Government Hospitality

      5,000

      14.

      Import Duties Advisory Committee

      42,455

      15.

      The Mint

      90

      16.

      National Debt Office

      2,148

      17.

      National Savings Committee

      74,959

      18.

      Public Record Office

      27,036

      19.

      Public Works Loan Commission

      90

      20.

      Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

      30,287

      21.

      Royal Commissions, etc.

      26,500

      22.

      Miscellaneous Expenses

      26,151

      23.

      Secret Service

      250,000

      24.

      Treasury Chest Fund

      4,171

      25.

      Tithe Redemption Commission

      90

      27.

      Repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund

      7,615

      £1,5I6,733"

      CLASSII
      5. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,058,384, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      3.

      League of Nations

      71,000

      4.

      Dominions Office

      35,456

      5.

      Dominion Services

      274,715

      6.

      Eire Services (Revised sum)

      20,100

      7.

      Oversea Settlement

      33,075

      8.

      Colonial Office

      118,078

      9.

      Colonial and Middle Eastern Services

      1,247,255

      10.

      Colonial Development Fund

      500,000

      11.

      India and Burma Services

      1,352,291

      12.

      Imperial War Graves Commission

      406,414

      £4,058,384"

      CLASS III.
      6. "That a sum, not exceeding £15,593,532, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      Home Office

      513,068

      2.

      Air-Raid Precautionary Services

      5,693,400

      3.

      Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

      49,276

      4.

      Police, England and Wales

      6,361,744

      5.

      Prisons, England and Wales

      634,637

      6.

      Approved Schools, etc., England and Wales

      440,850

      7.

      Supreme Court of Judicature, etc

      90

      8.

      County Courts

      90

      9.

      Land Registry

      90

      10.

      Public Trustee

      90

      11.

      Law Charges

      88,668

      12.

      Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

      8,724

      2933

      Scotland.

      £

      13.

      Police

      962,482

      14.

      Prisons Department for Scotland

      192,140

      15.

      Approved Schools, etc.

      44,965

      16.

      Scottish Land Court

      4,733

      18.

      Register House, Edinburgh

      90

      Ireland.

      19.

      Northern Ireland Services

      2,383

      20.

      Supreme Court of Judicature, etc., Northern Ireland

      2,808

      21.

      Irish Land Purchase Services (Revised sum)

      593,204

      £15,593,532"

      CLASS IV.
      7. "That a sum, not exceeding £36,810,963, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      Board of Education

      32,502,330

      2.

      British Museum

      105,332

      3.

      British Museum (Natural History)

      74,445

      4.

      Imperial War Museum

      8,326

      5.

      London Musuem

      3,983

      6.

      National Gallery

      18,436

      7.

      National Maritime Museum

      8,318

      8.

      National Portrait Gallery

      6,294

      9.

      Wallace Collection

      7,348

      10.

      Scientific Investigation, etc.

      163,981

      11.

      Universities and Colleges, Great Britain

      1,362,000

      12.

      Broadcasting

      2,540,000

      Scotland.

      14.

      National Galleries

      7,603

      15.

      National Library

      2,567

      £36,810,963"

      CLASS V.
      8. "That a sum, not exceeding £111,935,324, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      Ministry of Health (including a Supplementary sum of £20,000)

      16,752,572

      2.

      Board of Control

      99,991

      3.

      Registrar General's Office

      57,551

      4.

      National Insurance Audit Department

      110,890

      5.

      Friendly Societies Registry

      31,180

      6.

      Old Age Pensions

      30,617,000

      2934

      £

      7.

      Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions

      11,500,000

      8.

      Ministry of Labour

      14,837,000

      9.

      Grants in respect of Employment Schemes

      2,420,000

      10.

      Commissioner for Special Areas (England and Wales)

      90

      11.

      Unemployment Assistance Board

      29,485,000

      12.

      Special Areas Fund

      5,500,000

      13.

      Financial Assistance in Special and other Areas

      501,344

      Scotland.

      15.

      Board of Control

      11,030

      16.

      Registrar General's Office

      11,586

      17.

      Commissioner for Special Areas (Scotland)

      90

      £111,935,324"

      CLASS VI.
      9. "That a sum, not exceeding £38,584,541, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      Board of Trade

      211,444

      1A.

      Essential Commodities Reserves Fund

      8,500,000

      2.

      Mercantile Marine Services

      284,970

      3.

      Department of Overseas Trade

      391,134

      4.

      Export Credits

      90

      6.

      Office of Commissioners of Crown Lands

      25,402

      7.

      Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (including a Supplementary sum of £4,525)

      2,048,303

      8.

      Beet Sugar Subsidy, Great Britain

      2,549,900

      9.

      Milk (England and Wales and Northern Ireland) (including a Supplementary sum of £238,000)

      398,000

      10.

      Livestock Industry and Cattle Fund

      3,075,000

      11.

      Land Fertility Improvement

      832,439

      12.

      Oats and Barley Subsidy (England and Wales and Northern Ireland)

      100

      I2A.

      Bacon Industry

      150,000

      13.

      Surveys of Great Britain

      225,337

      14.

      Forestry Commission

      550,000

      15.

      Ministry of Transport

      203,530

      16.

      Roads, etc.

      17,000,000

      17.

      Development Fund

      458,000

      18.

      Development Grants

      574,740

      19.

      Department of Scientific and Industrial Research

      474,067

      20.

      State Management Districts

      90

      21.

      Clearing Offices

      90

      2935

      Scotland.

      £

      22.

      Department of Agriculture

      463,597

      23.

      Milk (including a Supplementary sum of £28,700)

      47,200

      24.

      Oats and Barley Subsidy

      100

      25.

      Fishery Board for Scotland

      98,168

      26.

      Herring Industry (including a Supplementary sum of £22,750)

      22,840

      £38,584,541"

      CLASS VII.
      10. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,707,904, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for
      Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

      236,715

      2.

      Houses of Parliament Buildings

      103,355

      5.

      Osborne

      7,640

      6.

      Office of Works and Public Buildings

      382,770

      7.

      Public Buildings, Great Britain (Supplementary sum)

      5,250

      9.

      Royal Palaces

      93,100

      11.

      Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

      153,390

      12.

      Rates on Government Property

      1,212,842

      13.

      Stationery and Printing

      1,460,082

      14.

      Peterhead Harbour

      21,000

      15.

      Works and Buildings in Ireland

      31,760

      £3,707,904"

      CLASS VIII.
      11. "That a sum, not exceeding £26,504,256, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VIII of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      Merchant Seamen's War Pensions

      168,322

      2.

      Ministry of Pensions

      24,400,000

      3.

      Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions, etc.

      795,036

      4.

      Superannuation and Retired Allowances

      1,140,798

      £26,504,156"

      CLASS IX.
      12. "That a sum, not exceeding £33,898,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment
      2936
      during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for expenditure in respect of the services included in Class IX
      of the Civil Estimates, namely:

      £

      1.

      Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues, England and Wales

      29,277,000

      2.

      Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues, Scotland

      4,621,000

      £33,898,000"

      REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1938.
      13. "That a sum, not exceeding £57,286,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, namely:

      £

      1.

      Customs and Excise

      3,965,200

      2.

      Inland Revenue

      5,519,500

      3.

      Post Office

      47,802,000

      £57,286,700"

      NAVY ESTIMATES, 1938.
      14. "That a sum, not exceeding £58,737,800, be granted to His Majesty, to 5,250 defray the charge which will come in course 93,100 of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Expenditure in respect153,390 of the Navy Services, namely:

      £

      1.

      Wages, etc., of Officers and Men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, and Civilians employed on Fleet Services (Supplementary sum)

      1,090,000

      3.

      Medical Establishments and Services

      441,000

      5.

      Educational Services

      223,600

      6.

      Scientific Services

      656,000

      7.

      Royal Naval Reserves

      355,800

      8.

      Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

      Section I.—Personnel (including a Supplementary sum of £27,400)

      10,121,400

      Section II.—Materiel (Revised sum)

      10,625,400

      Section III.—Contract Work (including a Supplementary sum of £1,713,300)

      21,455,300

      9.

      Naval Armaments (including a Supplementary sum of £94,500)

      10,486,500

      11.

      Miscellaneous Effective Services (Revised sum)

      1,680,300

      12.

      Admiralty Office

      1,602,500

      £58,737,800"

      ARMY ESTIMATES, 1938.
      15. "That a sum, not exceeding £48,085,000, he granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of

      2937
      payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Expenditure in respect of the Army Services, namely:

      £

      3.

      Medical Services

      1,105,000

      4.

      Educational Establishments

      1,327,000

      5.

      Quartering and Movements

      2,446,000

      6.

      Supplies, Road Transport and Remounts

      8,677,000

      7.

      Clothing

      1,95,000

      8.

      General Stores

      4,098,000

      9.

      Warlike Stores

      27,242,000

      12.

      War Office

      1,195,000

      £8,085,000"

      AIR ESTIMATES, 1938.
      16. "That a sum, not exceeding £16,894,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Expenditure in respect of the Air Services, namely:

      £

      2.

      Quartering, Non-Technical Stores, Supplies and Transportation

      6,144,000

      5.

      Medical Services

      524,000

      6.

      Technical Training and Educational Services

      1,040,000

      7.

      Reserve and Auxiliary Forces

      1,660,000

      8.

      Civil Aviation

      2,925,000

      9.

      Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services

      2,587,000

      10.

      Air Ministry

      1,490,000

      11.

      Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services

      524,000

      £16,894,000"

      3.57 P.m.
      Sir Archibald Sinclair: May I put a
      point of Order to you, Mr. Speaker? My hon. Friends and I, and, I believe, the whole House, are anxious that the Debate should cover as wide a field as possible, and I would, therefore, ask whether we can take together this Vote and Vote 2 on Diplomatic and Consular Services? Further, I would ask whether the fact of moving a reduction of the Vote will have the effect of narrowing the scope of the Debate?
      Mr. Speaker: I am quite willing that the two Votes should be taken together.
      It would be for the convenience of the House, and would enable the House to widen the scope of the Debate. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to move an Amendment, it would not narrow the Debate at all.
      Sir A. Sinclair: I beg to move, to leave out "£71,143," and to insert "£71,043."
      2938
      We have had during the course of this Session many Debates on special aspects of the world situation, and it seems to many of us that the time has arrived to make a review of the whole situation and that it is particularly important to have such a Debate and to give the Government an opportunity to define their policy before we separate for the Autumn Recess. Let me begin my speech on a note of agreement, on one point, at any rate, with the Prime Minister, who declared two or three weeks ago at Kettering that it was a striking fact that at the present time foreign affairs were dominating the minds of the people of this country. He thought that all the peoples of the world were asking themselves this same question: "Are we to be allowed to live our life in peace, or are we to be plunged against our will into war?" This is the explanation and justification of our frequent Debates on foreign policy during the present Session. We know that war is not inevitable, but we also know that peace is not certain. If it were, why this mad race in armaments? Every year of peace, every month of peace, is precious, but a policy which would enable the dictators to go on increasing their power by destroying freedom over widening areas of the world and to strengthen their own military machines with the resources of weaker Powers, would undermine the very foundation of law, justice and international good faith on which alone peace can be firmly based. Such a policy might indeed give us peace until the next General Election, but only at the cost of confronting us thereafter with the stark alternatives of war or submission.
      The Prime Minister asks, are we to be plunged into war against our will? If those who threaten and trample on the rights of others are to be allowed to dominate and absorb the resources first of one country and then of another—Austria, Spain, China, Czechoslovakia and the Balkan countries—and if brute force proves irresistible, the answer is that we in our turn will inevitably have to choose between being plunged into war against our will or being reduced to impotence, poverty and servitude. An experienced and detached observer, Senator Pittman, Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the United States Senate, said not long ago:

      2939
      "World conditions are getting progressively worse, much worse. The so-called authoritarian governments have been consolidating and strengthening war instrumentalities, and the so-called democratic Governments have been progressively retreating with every indication of pacific fear. A continuation of such courses will inevitably result in continued conquests and ultimate war."
      If Senator Pittman is too detached, too remote, for his opinion to impress hon. Members, let us come nearer home and consider the opinion of Doctor Goebbels, which he expressed a few weeks after Senator Pittman:
      "If I am asked wherein Parliamentary democracy and authoritarian States differ most deeply, then I must reply that the greater the danger the more parliamentary democracies are wont to retreat and the more the true leader—personality is wont to advance."
      Quite recently Signor Mussolini has described the democracies as "abject." Are we to be allowed to live our lives in peace? Only if we rid the minds of the dictators of the belief that the democracies are abject; only if we can convince the world that when we say that peace is the greatest of all British interests we do not merely mean untroubled possession of our Imperial heritage and selfish defence of our national interests, but peace based on law, justice and international good faith; only if we can rally those who love peace and freedom and hate war to the defence of these principles against the rising tide of barbarism and force.
      Let us then look to our friends. My mind turns first to the United States of America. One of the greatest achievements of the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), when he was Secretary for Foreign Affairs, was that he attained to a closer understanding with the United States than any Foreign Secretary since the War. Never has public opinion in the United States been so keenly alive to the perils which threaten democracy as it to-day. Never since the days of President Wilson have any President and Secretary of State so boldly exposed the fallacies of isolation as President Roosevelt and Mr. Cordell Hull have done. The tragedy is that while the United States is swinging away from isolation our Government is swinging towards it; and even our alliance with France is defended on the ground that the aeroplane has put our frontier on the Rhine.
      Of the things which ought to be done to develop Anglo-American friendship and
      2940
      association I would mention three: First, if the Prime Minister would strike in his speeches the same notes as President Roosevelt and Mr. Cordell Hull do in theirs—the common interests of mankind in preserving peace and democracy and extending trade, that Britain is concerned not only to defend British interests, trade and territory, but to uphold freedom, law and justice wherever they are threatened by tyranny and aggression, and, in the words of President Roosevelt, "to make a concerted effort with other peace-loving nations to uphold the laws and liberties in which alone peace can rest secure." Secondly, to push on with the trade treaty and not stop there, but to concert with Mr. Cordell Hull fresh measures for breaking down trade barriers and removing the economic causes of war. If, in the course of this Debate, the Prime Minister can give us any news about the progress of the present negotiations with the United States, which seem to be hanging fire, we would be grateful. Thirdly, to tackle the question of the War debt. Do not let it lie festering under the bandage of polite diplomacy. Cauterise it even if it hurts a little, and Anglo-American friendship will be all the healthier and stronger for the great part it will have to play in the preservation of peace and freedom in the world.
      From the United States it is natural to pass to the Far East, where China is the victim of a ruthless and ferocious attack. The Assembly of the League on 6th October last passed a resolution which His Majesty's Government supported, expressing its moral support for China and asking Members of the League to consider how far they can individually extend aid to China. In February of this year a resolution in similar terms was passed by the Council, with the outspoken support of the representative of His Majesty's Government, and on 14th May the Council passed a further resolution, "Earnestly urging"—that was the phrase—Members to give effect to the previous resolution and expressing sympathy with China in her "herioc struggle" with Japan. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs spoke eloquently in support of the resolution. Lord Halifax said:
      "I would like to say a few words in warm support of the resolution now before the Council. I can assure Mr. Wellington Koo that His Majesty's Government will continue,

      2941
      as it has done in the past, to give, in the words of our resolution to-day, serious and sympathetic consideration' to any requests from the Chinese Government in conformity with those resolutions."
      What has been done? A few days ago the Under-Secretary of State was asked by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. McEntee) what had been done, and in a written answer he replied:
      "I cannot attempt to give any detailed definition of what is being done or what may be in contemplation. ''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st July, 1938; col. 2447, Vol. 338.]
      Will the Prime Minister tell us all the things we have done to help China, or is the catalogue too long and the task of exposition too great even for his powers of endurance? Something was done by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington when he was Foreign Secretary, but I suggest to the Prime Minister that if the question had been confined to the period since Lord Halifax supported the last resolution at Geneva on 14th May, the answer would have been packed into one word—"Nothing." I shall be glad to be corrected if I am wrong. We cannot send fleets and armies to help China to resist the Japanese invasion. China does not expect it, and I am not advocating it. But interest and honour alike dictate that we should give her a loan to stabilise her currency. Anglo-Chinese co-operation in commerce and finance is vital to the interest of both countries. The Leith-Ross Commission and the success which attended it testify to the agreement of both Governments on that point. Last July it was reported that the Chinese Minister of Finance had reached agreement in principle with the City of London for the issue of a substantial loan. The difficulty of issuing the loan has increased, but the need is urgent.
      A fortnight ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer defended his refusal to give or guarantee a loan to China while giving one to Turkey, on the ground that Turkey was not engaged in hostilities. But it was precisely on the ground that China was defending her independence and integrity against Japanese invasion that His Majesty's Government, along with other Members of the League, supported a Resolution which committed them to giving "serious and sympathetic consideration" to any Chinese request for help. There could be not flatter repudiation
      2942
      of the obligation which Lord Halifax undertook on behalf of His Majesty's Government at Geneva than the Chancellor's refusal of this specific request from China for a loan on the very ground on which Lord Halifax undertook the obligation to consider it seriously and sympathetically. Moreover, on every occasion when we have debated the Far Eastern question His Majesty's Government have assured us that they will go as far as the United States Government will go; but the United States Government are giving just this kind of help to China by purchasing silver and thus supporting the Chinese currency. Therefore, a grant or guarantee of this loan would help China in her ordeal and promote both AngloChinese and Anglo-American co-operation. It sometimes seems to us that His Majesty's Government regard armaments as the only bulwark of peace and world order. A comparatively small investment in a loan to China might well produce future dividends in friendship and co-operation between our two countries which would be an incomparably stronger safeguard for peace and trade in the Far East than 10 times the same value in aeroplanes and warships.
      Let us turn to Europe, and let us be thankful that we can to-day review the troubled scene and face the dangers which we see there—to which it would be folly to blind ourselves—in the clear, strong and hopeful light which has been shed by the visit of our beloved King and Queen to Paris, and by the splendour, the enthusiasm and the sincerity of the welcome which they received from the Government and people of France. We owe a tribute of respectful gratitude to Their Majesties for the great service which they have rendered to the State and the cause of peace, of which the strongest bulwark in Europe to-day is the firm and loyal friendship between France and Britain, and we look forward to showing our appreciation of the welcome which France gave to our King and Queen when President Lebrun returns their visit in the spring of next year. In the speeches both of His Majesty the King and the President of the French Republic emphasis was laid upon the fact that the friendship between the two countries was not exclusive. We want friendship with Germany, with Italy, with Russia and with all other countries as well; we would exclude none; but let each occupy its place with equality of rights

      2943
      and status in a world order based on law, justice and third-party judgment.
      Is that what Germany wants? Will she be content to abide by third-party judgment and the rule of law? Will the Prime Minister tell us what Captain Weidemann said when he came over? Did he bring peaceful assurances from the German Government of their willingness to consider disarmament and the submission of international disputes to third-party judgment, or did he merely come to find out what our attitude would be in the event of a German invasion of Czechoslovakia? And what message did he take back to Germany from His Majesty's Government? I would also ask the Prime Minister to dissipate the cloud of rumours which has enveloped his last conversation with the German Ambassador. He published a communique with that object on Sunday. Will he now tell us what were the "certain assurances"—I quote the phrase from the communiqué—which he gave to the German Ambassador to the effect that the British Government were exercising a restraining influence in Prague? In the present critical situation in Central Europe we must all be anxious, as I certainly am, to give such support as we can to His Majesty's Government, on whom must rest so heavy a responsibility for preserving the peace of the world and of our own homes; and on the broad lines of His Majesty's Government's policy towards Czechoslovakia there can, surely, be little difference of opinion in any quarter of the House. On the one hand we want the Czechs to give the most generous concessions which are consistent with the safety of their State, to the reasonable wishes of the Sudeten German minority, while on the other hand they will deserve, and should receive, the support of His Majesty's Government in resisting unjust and aggressive demands. We, therefore, welcome the appointment of Lord Runciman in an advisory capacity to the Czech Government for the period of the negotiations, an appointment which both reflects Lord Runciman's willingness to accept most exacting and responsible public service and gives a fresh proof of the Czech Government's willingness to make every sacrifice for peace which is compatible with the integrity of the State and the principles of democracy.
      2944
      There are, however, two rumours which I observe obtaining currency in the newspapers on which I should like to put questions to the Prime Minister. Is it true that we are trying to hustle the Czech Government in their negotiations? Surely it would be a great mistake to hustle them too far. They are a democracy, there are five or six parties supporting the Czech Government to negotiate with, they have Sudeten Germans to negotiate with, and behind the Sudeten Germans are other interested parties. Surely these negotiations are extremely delicate and extremely complicated, and it is within the practical experience of every one of us that if complicated negotiating machinery is forced to run too fast there is a serious risk of friction. The second rumour which I have noticed in the newspapers is that His Majesty's Government are pressing the Czech Government to submit their proposals to Herr Henlein for his approval before submitting them to the Czech Parliament. Is that true; and if true is it wise to give to Herr Henlein a form of veto on proposals before they ever reach the Czech Parliament? Surely it would be better that the proposals should be expounded to Parliament, and that if Herr Henlein has criticisms to make of those proposals he should have to argue them in Parliament and within the hearing of the public opinion of the whole world.
      Obviously, there is no fear that the Czechs will attack the Germans. Therefore, the temptation to weak and shortsighted statesmen would be to exert pressure on the Czechs to conform to German wishes even at the cost of weakening the structure of their own State. For three reasons I believe that that policy would be fatal. First, because the policy of His Majesty's Government has so weakened the League that we have now relapsed into an era, which I hope will be short, of power politics, and Czechoslovakia, with the fifth largest and one of the most efficient armies in Europe, and one of the greatest armament industries in Europe, is a factor of immense weight in the balance of power. Once Czechoslovakia fell to Germany there would be nothing to stop Germany bestriding the Continent of Europe from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Secondly, if the Czechs are pressed too far they will fight rather than give way. Their great statesmen, M. Benes and M. Hodza, men

      2945
      of unimpeachable integrity, supported by their people with dour and resolute loyalty, have proved themselves in the crisis of last May, and since, to be firm, cool, tenacious but conciliatory. We do well to pay attention to the claims of the Sudeten Germans, but the rights, freedom and democratic culture and ideals of the Czechs also demand respect. If the Czechs are pressed too far they will fight, and France and Russia will be faithful to their obligations. Thirdly, if there is any doubt about our attitude those forces in Germany which would like to repeat the Rhineland and Austrian strokes of policy will urge another gamble. Already there are immense signs of activity in the militarist camp in Germany. Vehement anti-Czech campaigns rage in the German Press; prodigious quantities of war material are reported to be passing through Vienna on their way to the frontier with Czechoslovakia; German rearmament has recently been accelerated, the Air Force programme doubled, and their fortifications increased on the French frontier. Rumours, which have proved false, were deliberately spread by the German Press about a mobilisation in Czechoslovakia; while the Sudeten Germans, instead of following the path of compromise with the Czech Government, published on 19th July, possibly indeed under outside pressure, demands which went even further than those contained in Herr Henlein's Carlsbad speech, a development which must have been particularly disappointing to those who recently enjoyed the privilege of meeting Herr Henlein in London.
      These are the facts against the unpleasant background of which we must consider any assurances which the Prime Minister may have received from the German Government, and judge how far it is morally justifiable and politically expedient to press the Czechs to go in concessions to the Sudeten Germans, and those who stand behind them. Moreover, they suggest that at this juncture safety lies in making the attitude of His Majesty's Government clear beyond a doubt, for if the militarists in Germany are encouraged to gamble on armed invasion of Czechoslovakia by uncertainty about the intentions of Britain a heavy responsibility for the resulting catastrophe will rest upon His Majesty's Government.
      2946
      Let me now turn to what is only another aspect of one European situation, to the Mediterranean. Just as one end of the Rome-Berlin axis is thrusting into Central Europe, so it is also thrusting into Spain, fastening its grip—as I described in some detail in our last Debate—on Spanish military and economic resources, threatening our sea communications, and encircling France. War is still not inevitable, Mr. Speaker, because the aggressor Powers are still substantially weaker than those who wish to maintain peace and order in the world, but it does mean that there are powerful forces ready to exploit every weakness in the policy of France and Britain.
      If with only a few sentences, I must trouble the consciences of hon. Members by referring to Abyssinia. The condemnation by the League of Nations of the Italian invasion of Abyssinia still stands. His Majesty's Government have declared that they have no intention of condoning it, yet they allow the Italians to develop our harbours of Berbera and Zeila and to build roads through British Somaliland which enable them to supply the troops which are trying to beat down the heroic resistance of the Abyssinians. The sum of £7,000 has already been paid by the Italian Government to the British Somaliland Government for this purpose, and on the west every facility is being given for the transport by Sudan Government steamers, through the British enclave of Gambela, of stores which are essential to the conduct of a war which His Majesty's Government still condemn as a crime. That ought to be stopped. Moreover, the Italians have been recruiting British Somalis to fight against the Abyssinians, which is plainly contrary to the Bon Voisinage. Agreement. It is true that Ministers have told us that the situation has been brought to the attention of the Italian Government, but I would ask the Prime Minister, Have the recruits now been discharged from the Italian armies?
      There the Italian Government are ignoring the letter and the spirit of the AngloItalian Agreement. So they are in respect of propaganda. The Bari Wireless has closed down, but otherwise Italian and German propaganda is raging throughout Portugal and all through the Mediterranean countries. It is not only pro-Italian and pro-German propaganda; to that we should have little objection. Our right answer to that would be to give

      2947
      greater support to the strenuous efforts of the British Council, with inadequate resources, to put the British case. This Italian and German propaganda however is assertively and strikingly anti-British and anti-democratic. The Italians are spending the equivalent of over£1,000,000 a year on propaganda, and the Germans are spending much more. I must say that I am astonished at the silence on this subject of so many hon. Members who were moved to transports of indignation by the trifling, feeble, clumsy efforts of the Bolshevist Government to conduct propaganda in this country and through the British Empire. For my own part, I detest Government propaganda directed against other countries, from whatever Government it comes; I am prepared to denounce it and support measures against it whether it comes from Russia, Germany or Italy; but do not let the House under-estimate the far more formidable character of the propaganda which is being directed against British interests by Germany and Italy.
      Nor can His Majesty's Government regard the bombing of British ships and the machine-gunning of British sailors by Italian aeroplanes and pilots as being consistent with the spirit of the AngloItalian Agreement? Nor is Signor Mussolini, as I understand from the newspapers, any longer content with the sacrifice of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden). The Rome correspondent of the "Times" tells us that anti-Italian designs are not, of course, attributed to the Prime Minister. He possesses Italian confidence up to 100 per cent. But the Italians are not so sure of some responsible officials in the Foreign Office. I hope that no more sacrifices will be offered by the Prime Minister to placate the Italian dictator, but we must be vigilant.
      Moreover, in successive speeches Signor Mussolini has emphasised his contempt for what he calls the "demo-pluto-cracies," and his intention to work loyally with Germany and Japan. For the first time during the nearly 20 years in which he has ruled Italy, he is now even participating in the German campaign against the Jews, while his attitude to France is particularly threatening, and even insulting. His newspapers openly boast that Italy began armed intervention in Spain. I am shocked at the lack of consideration
      2948
      they have shown for the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), who has so assiduously argued, on behalf of the Italian dictator, that it was the Russians who started it. Signor Mussolini and his newspapers say:" Not at all; it was we who started it."They are determined to control the destinies of the Spanish people, in spite of France and Britain and the Non-Intervention Agreements to which both they and we are parties. Independent newspaper correspondents tell us, that, since Signor Mussolini promised the Prime Minister as the price of opening the negotiations for the Anglo-Italian Agreement not to increase his intervention in Spain, the air blockade of Spanish ports carried out by Italian machines with pilots from Majorca and even direct from Italy, has been intensified, and that General Franco has such immense supplies of war material now at his disposal that the bombardments which precede his attacks are compared for the first time with those on the Western Front during the Great War. By thus increasing his military support of General Franco, by pressing us to bring the Anglo-Italian Agreement into operation all the same, and by refusing to negotiate with France, Signor Mussolini is openly aiming at driving a wedge between France and Britain.
      So I would ask the Prime Minister, first, if he would tell us what passed between M. Daladier and himself in that correspondence which M. Daladier opened a few weeks ago, and between Lord Halifax and M. Bonnet in Paris. Secondly, I would ask him whether he agrees that, when the Government's plan for the evacuation of foreign combatants comes into force, if there is obstruction to the operation of that plan from Germany and Italy, we must promptly move to allow the Spanish Government to import arms freely to defend themselves against the intervening Powers? Thirdly, I would ask him whether he can give the House an assurance that he will not attempt to bring the Anglo-Italian Agreement into full operation during the autumn Recess until all the Italian troops, airmen and military advisers are evacuated from Spain and from Spanish islands and territories; or until the fighting in Spain is stopped by an armistice?
      For, although we have always supported the Government's plan for the

      2949
      evacuation of foreign combatants, with all its imperfections, I am convinced that the world will witness a most appalling tragedy if an armistice is not declared in Spain before the end of the winter. Let the Government not wait until both parties are searching for a mediator. On both sides I have no doubt there are tens of thousands of men, and at any rate there are some leading men, who are longing for peace. On the Republican side, that is proved by the speeches of Senor Azana and Senor Negrin, and on the insurgent side by the speeches of General Yague and the Marquis de Carjaval, who have spoken out nobly for peace and understanding between the varying factions in Spain. Let the British Government start talking peace and rallying to their support the powerful influence for peace of the democracies on both sides of the Atlantic. Evacuation would have been good a year ago when it was first proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), and when not only the Government supporters but my hon. Friends and I supported it; now, in all probability, nothing short of an armistice before the winter will avail to avert catastrophe.
      In conclusion let me only say this, that I have no doubt that the thought uppermost in the mind of the Prime Minister, whose courage and industry in shouldering his heavy burden of responsibility we may all admire, however much we may dissent, as I strongly do, from his policy—the thought uppermost in his mind, as it is in my own and that of every hon. Member in this House, is the preservation of peace. The policy of concession to the dictatorships is, I believe, in danger of defeating that object. On the few occasions when it has been tried, firmness has invariably met with success. There were Nyon, the Czechoslovakian crisis of May, and the Austrian Debt settlement; and even the bombing of British ships, although there is sad news to-day, which shows the need for firm vigilance, has been almost entirely stopped since His Majesty's Government, stiffened by Debates in this House, made strong representations not only to General Franco but also to the head of the Italian Government.
      It is a profound mistake to suppose that because Japan is having difficulties in
      2950
      China, Germany is having difficulties in Austria, and Italy is having difficulties in Abyssinia, the enterprises of the dictatorships are, therefore, doomed to failure. Never in the history of the world has tryanny had at its disposal such powerful instruments of oppression as it has to-day. If we are to avoid the choice between war and subjection, now is the time, before the resources of great and free countries like Czechoslovakia, Spain and Portugal are transferred in the balance sheet of power to the credit of Germany and Italy, to stand firm for our principles and for our ideals of peace, freedom, justice, and international good faith.
      4.39 p.m.
      The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain):
      The right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House has moved a reduction of the Vote and, of course, his business is to put a different point of view from that which the House would expect of me; nevertheless, the right hon. Gentleman did not on this occasion unduly stress disagreement and, in the concluding part of his speech, he said that everybody would agree with what he understood to be the main aim of the Government. I think that must be so. I cannot imagine anyone in any part of the House who would disagree with what we have so frequently declared to be the main aim of the Government's foreign policy, namely, the establishment and the maintenance of peace and the removal, as far as that may be practicable, of all causes of possible conflict in the amelioration of grievances between one country and another.
      It pleases the right hon. Gentleman sometimes to suggest that our attitude towards certain countries in Europe is one of continued concession, and although from time to time he gives instances which go to prove the opposite, they are to be excepted. Let not the right hon. Gentleman or anyone, either in this country or elsewhere, imagine for one moment that, although we seek peace, we are willing to sacrifice, even for peace, British honour and British vital interests. We are making rapid progress with our great rearmament programme, and day by day the armed strength of this country becomes more formidable. While that tremendous power which we are accumulating remains there as a guarantee that we can defend ourselves if we are

      2951
      attacked, we are not unmindful of the consideration that although it is good to have a giant's strength, it is tyrannous to use it like a giant. Our aims are not the less peaceful because no one can imagine that we have reason to fear any opponent.
      The right hon. Gentleman moved over a very wide field and put to me a great number of questions. I am not sure that I remember all his questions, much less the answers, but in the course of what I am to say I shall be able to take up, at any rate, a portion of them as I pass from one part of the subject to another. In the brief speech which I propose to make upon the more salient points on the international situation I shall hope to make clear in each case that what the Government have kept constantly before them is that main fundamental aim and that policy which I began by describing to the House. The right hon. Gentleman paid an eloquent tribute to the magnificent response which was recently accorded to the King and Queen on their visit to France. I would like to associate myself with what the right hon. Gentleman said. I do not think I recall such unanimity among all classes and all parties in France as was displayed on that occasion, and while no doubt it was largely due to the personal bearing and charm of the Royal guests, one may ascribe it in large measure to the consciousness that our two democratic nations are united closely together by common interests and common ideals.
      The unity which exists between France and ourselves is the more happy because I think it is generally recognised that it is not directed against any other nation or combination of nations. It is in itself a solid buttress of peace. That unity was strengthened and confirmed by conversations which took place between my Noble Friend and the French Ministers in Paris. The right hon. Gentleman asked me to tell him what took place in those conversations. An official communiqué has been issued which gives the substance of them, and I really do not think there is anything more that I can tell the House, because there is no mystery about them. There has been no new undertaking, no new commitment on either side. There was a general discussion of all matters of common interest to the two countries, and there was general and complete agreement upon them. With that, I think, the House may be fairly satisfied.
      2952
      If I may turn to France's unhappy neighbour it is a matter of profound regret that one cannot see the prospect of a speedy termination of that terrible struggle which is daily destroying the best of Spain's life and dissipating the resources which will be so sorely needed when the combatants lay down their arms. There is no need for any appeal to be made to this Government to take advantage of any opportunity which may occur for mediation, or an armistice, or anything that would bring to a close the military operations which, I think, must shock us daily. In all these cases there are moments when it is not only futile but, indeed, mischievous for third parties to try to intervene. I hope the House will believe that, if we do not intervene at this particular moment, it is only because we are convinced that the moment has not come when we can intervene with success.
      Miss Wilkinson: Why did you close the frontier?
      The Prime Minister: The House is aware that the non-intervention plan—the British plan for the withdrawal of volunteers which was agreed upon by the Non-Intervention Committee—has now been submitted to the two parties in Spain. I understand that the Non-Intervention Committee are not yet in receipt of replies from both sides, though I hope that those replies will not be long delayed.
      Miss Wilkinson: Have they not had a reply from the Government?
      The Prime Minister: I believe that they have had a reply from the Spanish Republican Government, but that they have not yet received a reply from General Franco. Perhaps, however, the House might like to have the latest information about the communications which have been passing between His Majesty's Government and the Burgos authorities about the bombing of British ships in Spanish ports. We sent a communication to the Burgos authorities, who have, the House will remember, declared that it was no part of their policy to make deliberate attacks upon British ships. We sent a communication to them proposing that an immediate investigation should be made into certain cases to which we had already drawn their attention, and in which it appeared to us that the attack

      2953
      had been, in fact, a deliberate one. We proposed that this investigation should be carried out by two naval officers, one appointed by His Majesty's Government and the other by the Burgos authorities. If they agreed that the attack was deliberate, then the Burgos authorities would make the necessary arrangements to pay immediate compensation to those concerned. If, on the other hand, the two officers were unable to agree, then our proposal was that the matter should be referred to a third party, not of British or Spanish nationality, but who should be agreed upon between the Burgos authorities and ourselves, and that he should make the final decision. We have now received a reply from the Burgos authorities in which they say that, in pursuance of their desire to meet the wishes of His Majesty's Government, they accept this formula and they agree that the investigation we propose should be carried out. We are now considering whether it would not be advisable to send Sir Robert Hodgson back to Spain with instructions which would cover, among other things, the detailed working out of this proposal.
      There is another matter which is bound up with the situation in Spain, and that is the position in regard to the Anglo-Italian Agreement. The Agreement was to come into force upon a date to be determined by agreement between the two Governments, but on 16th April, that is to say, the date upon which the Agreement was signed, Lord Perth addressed a Note to the Italian Foreign Minister in which he reminded him that His Majesty's Government regarded the settlement of the Spanish question as a pre-requisite of the entry into force of the Agreement made between the two Governments. I should like to explain, because I am not sure that it is generally apprehended, why it was that we put in that stipulation. We never regarded this Agreement as simply a bilateral arrangement between Italy and ourselves. When we entered into negotiations, we did so because we thought then, and we are still of the same opinion, that the restoration of the relations between Italy and this country to their old terms of friendship and confidence would bring us appreciably nearer to our ultimate aim, which is a general European appeasement. We felt at the time that the moral justification
      2954
      for our recognition of the Italian position in Ethiopia would be the knowledge that that recognition had brought with it a real contribution to the peace of Europe. We felt that, while this conflict was going on in Spain under the sort of conditions in which it has been waged, the Spanish situation was a perpetual menace to the peace of Europe, and it was for that reason that we said that it must be removed from that category before our Agreement was brought into force. It is not our fault, and it is not the fault of the Italian Government, that that condition has not been brought about. They have kept faith with us—
      Miss Wilkinson: Would you like to send some troops to help them?
      The Prime Minister: They kept full faith with us in the reduction of their troops in Libya, in the cessation of anti-British propaganda, and in collaboration on the Non-Intervention Committee. [Interruption.] We on our side have carried out our engagement—
      Mr. Jagger: To starve the Republic.
      The Prime Minister: It is very difficult to give a connected account, which I am trying to do, of the state of affairs in Europe, if I am subjected to these constant interruptions. Hon. Members will surely have plenty of opportunity later on of criticising what I am saying, and I think they might at least allow me to finish my sentences. I was saying that we have fulfilled our engagement to take steps at the Council of the League to clarify the position of Member States in regard to the Italian sovereignty over Ethiopia. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the recruiting of Somalis by the Italian forces was taking place in British Somaliland. My information is that he is mistaken. Recruiting has not taken place in British Somaliland—
      Mr. Jagger: They have taken them out.
      The Prime Minister: Perhaps I may be allowed just to finish this sentence—but a certain amount of recruiting has taken place, not in British Somaliland, but among people whose home is in British Somaliland but who crossed the frontier for purposes of grazing. The Government of British Somaliland have taken all possible steps to prevent recruiting, and it has recently been agreed with the

      2955
      Italian authorities that no such recruiting shall take place.
      Sir A. Sinclair: Have the men been discharged?
      The Prime Minister: I do not think any undertaking has been given to discharge the men. Of course, they ought never to have been recruited. There, for the present, the matter of the Anglo-Italian Agreement must rest. We cannot abandon the position we have taken up about the settlement of the Spanish—
      Sir A. Sinclair: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the subject, will he answer the point about material going through from British Somaliland and up the Nile through the Sudan and Gambela?
      The Prime Minister: I am sorry I cannot answer that question. I have had no notice of it, and have not the slightest idea to what the right hon. Gentleman is referring. I never heard of it before. I will ask my hon. Friend to make inquiries and, if possible, give the right hon. Gentleman an answer later on. I was saying that we cannot abandon the position we have taken up in regard to the settlement of the Spanish question which we have over and over again declared to the House. But, on the other hand, we profoundly regret this unforeseen delay which has taken place in the completion of the agreement, and we shall do all that we possibly can to facilitate the withdrawal of the foreign volunteers from Spain, in order that that country may cease to offer any threat to the peace of Europe.
      Mr. Attlee: Do I gather from the right hon. Gentleman's present statement that what he means by a settlement in Spain is the volunteers' withdrawal agreement? Hitherto we have not known what he meant by a settlement in Spain. Do I understand now that it is merely a question of volunteers being withdrawn?
      The Prime Minister: I would like to see what happens when the volunteers are withdrawn. If His Majesty's Government think that Spain has ceased to be a menace to the peace of Europe, I think we shall regard that as a settlement of the Spanish question.
      In recent weeks the attention of His Majesty's Government has necessarily
      2956
      been particularly directed to two areas in Europe. One is that with which I have been dealing; the other is Czechoslovakia. In dealing with Czechoslovakia, it is very difficult for people in this country, with the exception of a comparatively small number who have made a special study of the position, to arrive at a just conclusion as to the rights and wrongs of the dispute between the Czechoslovakian Government and the Sudeten Germans. Many of us would have been very glad if we could have left this matter to be decided by the two parties concerned; but, unfortunately, here again we are only too conscious that there are all the materials present for a breach of the peace, with incalculable consequences, if the matter is not handled boldly and with a reasonable amount of speed. Therefore, in accordance with our general policy, and in close association with France, we have done everything that we could to facilitate a peaceful solution of the dispute. It is a problem which, in one form or another, has existed for centuries, and it would perhaps be unreasonable to expect that a difficulty which has been going on so long should be capable of solution in a few short weeks.
      The right hon. Gentleman spoke of one of the many rumours which he has collected, without very much authority behind them. This was to the effect that we were hustling the Czech Government. It is a little difficult to know what one is to do about these rumours. If you deny them when they are untrue, then when you cannot deny them people assume that they are true. You get into a difficulty when you eliminate one rumour after another, and thus allow the skilful journalist to find out the thing you wish him not to know. With regard to this rumour, I should like to assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is no truth in it. Indeed, the very opposite is the truth. Our anxiety has been rather lest the Czechoslovakian Government should be too hasty in dealing with a situation of such delicacy that it was most desirable that the two sides should not get into a position where they were set, and unable to have any further give-and-take between them.
      Perhaps I might say, with regard to the rumour to which the right hon. Gentleman referred when he inquired whether we had urged on the Czechoslovakian

      2957
      Government to submit their proposals to Herr Henlein before putting them to their Parliament, that we did so, and we did so for that very reason, that if by any chance an agreed settlement could be come to between Herr Henlein and the Czechoslovakian Government before any statute was put before the Czech Parliament, obviously that would be the best solution of all. But I do not think that any great amount of pressure need be applied from us to induce the Czechoslovakian Government to do what they were anxious to do all along, and that was to give the fullest opportunity for a full and frank discussion of any proposals they might wish to make. Hitherto we have ourselves abstained from making suggestions as to the particular method of trying to solve this Czechoslovakian question, although, of course, in this country we have had a certain amount of experience of the difficulty of trying to provide for local government without endangering the stability of the State. We have, perhaps, in that respect had as much experience as any country in the world.
      But while we have felt that an agreement voluntarily come to, if it could be reached between the Sudeten Germans and the Czech Government, would be the best solution, nevertheless, as time has gone on, it has begun to appear doubtful whether, without some assistance from outside, such a voluntary agreement could take place. In those circumstances, His Majesty's Government have been considering whether there were some other way in which they could lend their help to bring the negotiators together, and, in response to a request from the Government of Czechoslovakia, we have agreed to propose a person with the necessary experience and qualities to investigate this subject on the spot and endeavour, if need be, to suggest means for bringing the negotiations to success. Such an investigator and mediator would, of course, be independent of His Majesty's Government—in fact, he would be independent of all Governments. He would act only in his personal capacity, and it would be necessary, of course, that he should have all the facilities and all the information placed at his disposal in order to enable him to carry through his task.
      I cannot assert that a proposal of that kind will necessarily bring about a solution of this problem, but I think it may have two valuable results. First of all,
      2958
      I think it would go far to inform public opinion generally as to the real facts of the case, and, secondly, I hope that it may mean that issues which hitherto have appeared intractable may prove, under the influence of such a mediator, to be less obstinate than we have thought. But it is quite obvious that the task of anyone who undertakes this duty is going to be a very exacting, very responsible, and very delicate one, and His Majesty's Government feel that they are fortunate in having secured from Lord Runciman a promise to undertake it, provided he is assured of the confidence of the Sudeten Germans—I hope he will be—as well as the assistance of the Czechoslovakian Government. Lord Runciman was a Member of this House so long that he is well known to many hon. Members. I think they will agree with me that he has outstanding personal qualifications for the task he has undertaken. He has a long experience of public affairs and of men of all sorts and conditions. He is characterised by fearlessness, freedom from prejudice, integrity and impartiality, and I am quite certain that everyone here will wish him all success.
      Mr. Bellenger: The right hon. Gentleman has stated that Lord Runciman will go in quite a personal capacity, entirely, unconnected with His Majesty's Government. Do I understand that his position is only acceptable as long as both sides agree to accept him as an arbitrator, or adviser—the Czechoslovakian Government and the Henlein party?
      The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. Lord Runciman is not in any sense an arbitrator.
      Mr. Bellenger: An adviser.
      The Prime Minister: He is an investigator and mediator—that is what I called him. He will try to acquaint himself with all the facts and the views of the two sides, and he will no doubt see them separately, and perhaps later on he will be able to make some proposals to them which will help them. He is in the position, so well known to the hon. Member, of a man who goes down to assist in settling a strike. He has to see two sides who have come to a point when they cannot go any further. He is there as an independent, impartial person.
      Mr. Bellenger: Acceptable to both sides in the dispute?
      The Prime Minister: That is Lord Runciman's stipulation, and obviously a necessary one. If one side declare that they will have nothing to do with him, it will be quite impossible for him to undertake the task.
      Mr. Churchill: Have both sides agreed?
      The Prime Minister: We have not heard from the Sudeten Germans.
      Miss Wilkinson: Could we hear that personal exchange?
      The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend asks whether both sides have agreed, and my reply was that we have not heard from the Sudeten Germans. We have impressed upon the Government of Czechoslovakia, and also upon the German Government, our own sense of the desirability of restraint. We have noted with satisfaction the efforts which the Czech Government have made, and we have also been very happy to receive assurances, only recently renewed, from the German Government of their own desire for a peaceful solution. The right hon. Gentleman asked me what asurances I had given to the German Ambassador. I was not myself responsible for the exact wording of the communiqué to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred; but it does not mean anything more than I have already told the House of our action in urging the Czechoslovakian Government to try to do all they possibly can, consistent with what they consider essential to their own State, to come to an agreement. On the other side, too, we have continually urged the need for patience in a very delicate and difficult situation.
      If only we could find some peaceful solution of this Czechoslovakian question, I should myself feel that the way was open again for a further effort for a general appeasement—an appeasement which cannot be obtained until we can be satisfied that no major cause of difference or dispute remains unsettled. We have already demonstrated the possibility of a complete agreement between a democratic and a totalitarian State, and I do not myself see why that experience should not be repeated. When Herr Hitler made his offer of a Naval Treaty under which the German fleet was
      2960
      to be restricted to an agreed level bearing a fixed ratio to the size of the British fleet, he made a notable gesture of a most practical kind in the direction of peace, the value of which it seems to me has not ever been fully appreciated as tending towards this general appeasement. There the treaty stands as a demonstration that it is possible for Germany and ourselves to agree upon matters which are vital to both of us. Since agreement has already been reached on that point, I do not think that we ought to find it impossible to continue our efforts at understanding, which, if they were successful, would do so much to bring back confidence.
      I agree very much with the right hon. Gentleman in the value that he attaches to our relations with the United States of America. I am happy to think that they have never been better than they are at the present moment. With regard to the debt, I am not quite sure what the right hon. Gentleman meant by cauterising it. The settlement of the debt has to be a settlement between two parties and cannot be settled by one alone. As for the attitude of the British Government, I would like to refer the right hon. Gentleman to the Debate which took place on this subject only a few days ago in another place, when the spokesman of His Majesty's Government made it perfectly clear what our attitude was.
      Coming to the trade agreement, I regard that not merely as an attempt to come to a commercial agreement, which if we could find a fair settlement would be of benefit to both countries, but as an effort to demonstrate the possibility of these two great countries working together on a subject which, if they can come to terms, may prove to be the forerunner of a policy of wider application. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not feel that it is necessary to display impatience, because of the length of time which has been taken over this matter. To begin with, a commercial treaty of that kind deals with an enormous schedule of articles, every one of which has to be the subject of discussion and conversation, and he knows very well that the constitutional procedure in the United States, however admirably it may be adapted to a thorough sifting of the question, is not one which lends itself to expedition. At

      2961
      the present time we have gone through this great schedule and we have agreed upon a great part of it, but, as always happens in these cases, we have come down after a time to certain particular instances which offer exceptional difficulties, and those are not yet entirely resolved. All that I can say is, that I know there is good will on both sides, and I hope that we shall not have to wait too long before we are able to announce that we have finally come to an agreed conclusion.
      I have only one other part of the world upon which I now need touch, and that is the Far East, where war is still being carried on with all the horrors which seem inseparable from modern warfare. The Brussels Conference last November showed clearly enough that no proposals which would involve intervention in the conflict on the part of the Members of the League of Nations would have any chance of acceptance. Of course, His Majesty's Government could not alone undertake that great burden. The right hon. Gentleman asked me, Can we show what we are doing to carry out our obligations under the League resolutions? and he made special reference to the request of China for a loan. We considered long and anxiously whether we should be justified in introducing the special legislation which would have been necessary if this Government had granted or guaranteed such a loan, and we came finally to the definite conclusion that we should not be so justified in the case of a loan, which would have been based upon security of hypothetical value, and as to which it was by no means certain that, if it were granted, it would achieve the objects which were intended. The fact that we have not been able to grant or guarantee a loan to China does not exclude all forms of assistance, financial or otherwise, and there are various proposals which have come to us from China for assistance in another way, which are not open to the objections at any rate which we found to a loan, and which are now under examination by the Government Departments concerned.
      It cannot be said that we are disinterested as a country in the position in the Far East, because for a hundred years our interests in China have been of great importance, and when the Japanese Government claim that they are protecting
      2962
      their interests in China, I am sure they must recognise that we too have our interests in China and that we cannot stand by and see them sacrificed in the process. But there again, in the Far East, we should be very glad to offer our services to bring about the cessation of hostilities if ever and whenever we can see an opportunity which presents a favourable prospect of success. In the meantime we are resolved to do our utmost to see that British interests shall not suffer in a conflict for which we have no responsibility and in which we have no direct concern.
      I think that I have touched on all matters which are of special interest to the House, but in this survey, which has included a glance at two ferocious wars, and an area which is the subject of dispute which is a potential threat to the peace of Europe, situated as it is in the very heart of the Continent, it is as much a matter of regret to others as it is to His Majesty's Government that we cannot record any effective or active intervention by the League of Nations. We know well enough what is the cause of this ineffectiveness, and it is ineffectiveness which is likely to persist as long as some of the most powerful nations in the world are outside the League. We regard the present position of the League as temporary, and even if it is necessary for the time being that the League should renounce the idea of the use of force, there still remains a wide field of usefulness for the League, in pursuing which, as it seems to us, the League may well be able to build up a fresh position of confidence and of approval, with the result that in time we may find that those nations who have left the League, because they did not agree with the use of force by the League, may come back to it and take part in this other work, and, who knows what further developments may then take place once the League can be considered more representative of the world as a whole than it is to-day?
      I would only say that with that view of the future of the League we intend to give the League all the support and encouragement in our power. In the meantime, in the critical situation in which we find ourselves, we have to fall back upon the ordinary methods of diplomacy. At the beginning of this year I think that many of us must have felt that it was likely to be critical, for good or for evil,

      2963
      in the history of the world, and now that more than half of it has gone, I believe we all feel that the atmosphere is lighter, and that throughout the Continent there is a relaxation of that sense of tension which six months ago was present. To that lightening of the atmosphere and slackening of the tension, we believe that the policy of His Majesty's Government has made its contribution. We intend to pursue it and we believe that in the end we shall succeed in bringing back security and confidence to Europe.
      5.30 p.m.
      Mr. Morgan Jones: I entirely agreed with the Prime Minister when he said, in his closing remarks, that we began this year in an atmosphere of the greatest apprehension. He said that we have now passed through more than half the year and he feels justified in expressing the belief that the atmosphere has somewhat lightened. Without being as optimistically inclined as the right hon. Gentleman is at this moment, let me say that in so far as the atmosphere is lightening we shall all rejoice. At the same time, in the process of lightening the atmosphere, as the Prime Minister put it, democracy in Spain has come very near being obliterated—we hope it will not be finally obliterated—Austria has been gobbled up by Germany, Czechoslovakia is being daily menaced, and the Chinese in the Far East are fighting for their very lives. If that is lightening the atmosphere, what can a heavy atmosphere really be?
      I think we shall all be deeply grateful to our hon. Friends below the Gangway for raising the subject of foreign affairs. It would have been disastrous if the House had gone away for the vacation without having an opportunity of reviewing, broadly, the international situation. I am fully in agreement with the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) with regard to our relations with the United States of America. It has fallen to my lot to make three visits to America in the last few years, and I can speak from actual observation when I say that I am quite certain the Government should face up to the fact that there does remain in America a certain amount of, shall I say, misunderstanding. I would go further and say that in my judgment—I commit nobody else to
      2964
      this view beyond myself—nothing could contribute more to the clearing away of the misunderstanding between ourselves and the American public than a settlement of the American debt question. I do not say how it can be done, but I am sure that it does remain a very serious stumbling block in the way of full Anglo-American amity and friendship.
      I was very interested, I might say I was somwhat alarmed, by some of the charges which were made by the right hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland concerning what is happening in Somaliland and adjacent territory, and what he alleged to be the special facilities afforded to the Italians to carry on what the League of Nations has declared, and still declares, to be unjustifiable intrusion upon the independence of Abyssinia. The Government ought to take steps before the Debate closes to clear up some of the allegations which the right hon. Gentleman put forward, in good faith and apparently on definite information, so that we may know what is taking place in that part of the world.
      When we came to discuss the underlying principles of foreign policy, I would recall what the Prime Minister said in a speech in this House on the list February, when he laid down three general general principles. In the first place he said that the Government proposed to afford protection to British interests and the lives of British nationals. Secondly, he said they sought the maintenance of peace and, as far as they could influence it, the settlement of differences by specific means and not by force. Thirdly, be promised friendly relations with other nations which are willing to reciprocate our friendly feelings and who are willing to keep those rules of international conduct without which there can be no security or stability.
      These general principles are unexceptionable, and I accept them, and in the light of those general principles I propose to examine the policy of the Government in regard to Spain, Czechoslovakia and the Far East. The first proposition is the protection of British interests and the lives of British nationals. What is British interest? How do the Government define it? Is it a British interest that Spain should remain under the control of a free and independent Government in Spain? Is it a British interest that German guns

      2965
      should dominate the Straits of Gibraltar? Is it a British interest that Spanish bays should become the hiding places for hostile submarines at some future time? Is it a British interest that our closest neighbour, France, should be embarrassed in future by the presence of a hostile Fascist Power on the Pyrenees? Is it a British interest to flout deliberately our obligations under international law and to give comfort to a rebel in the territory of a friendly Power, as we have done to General Franco?
      What does British interest mean with regard to the protection of the lives of British nationals? How have the Government implemented that principle? British ships have been bombed and their crews have been machine-gunned, not while carrying contraband but while carrying on legitimate trade. Is that protecting British nationals? I would remind the House of very remarkable occurrences in the past. During the last Parliament six British engineers were arrested in Moscow on the ground that they had broken the law of the country in which they then lived. What happened? We forthwith declared that they could not be guilty. The diplomatic machinery was speedily set in motion, and the then Prime Minister, Mr. Baldwin, declared that the Russian Ambassador had been told that the friendly relations of the two countries would be severely strained if these arrests were proceeded with. The Foreign Secretary almost wept with indignation. The House was whipped into a fury of resentment. The Government did more. They found a reason for denouncing the Anglo-Russian Trade Agreement. We moved on that occasion with remarkable vigour and directness, but that was in the case of Russia, of course!
      Recently in Mexico the Government of that country changed the law in regard to oil concessions. Those very unworthy things called profits were menaced. What happened? We issued a sharp ultimatum to the Mexican Government. We have done more than that. We have closed the British Legation in Mexico. We are not even speaking to them. Again, we acted with vigour. But when a few poor British seamen are bombed, butchered and machine-gunned as they battle for their lives in the sea, what happens? The Prime Minister says to the murderers, "You naughty boys." That will give great comfort, I am sure, to the widows
      2966
      in Swansea, the Hartlepools and South Shields. It will ease the pain of their hearts to know that the Prime Minister, in pursuit of his policy in defending British nationals, has reprimanded their husbands' assassins very severely.
      Mr. Beverley Baxter: If that is all that has arisen, why has bombing stopped?
      Mr. Jones: We do not know that yet. The third principle laid down by the Prime Minister was keeping the rules of international conduct. Would he suggest that Italy has done that? Is it suggested that what Italy has done has been in accordance with the standards of international conduct as accepted among nations? The hon. Member opposite asked me a question. I ask "Is he following the rules of international conduct even now?"
      Mr. Baxter: Who?
      Mr. Jones: Mussolini. I will read an extract from the "Times" of last Saturday. Under the heading, "Danish Ship sunk by Aeroplane," appears the following statement:
      "It was reported from Marseilles yesterday that His Majesty's Ship 'Shropshire,' of the First Cruiser Squadron, landed on her arrival there the officers and crew of the Danish steamship ' Bodil.' "
      It does not happen to be an English ship, but is the bombing of that ship in accordance with ordinary international conduct? Some will say, "Mussolini has not caused that; that is General Franco." But we have been in this difficulty on such numerous occasions that we are simply left to guess who is responsible for these bombings.
      Mr. Wise: The hon. Member has just said that it is Mussolini.
      Mr. Jones: We are told over and over again that we cannot even guess, but everybody on this side and on the other side of the House has a shrewd suspicion where these aeroplanes come from.
      Mr. Wise: You do not announce it as a fact but as a suspicion.
      Mr. Jones: Yesterday, the "Daily Telegraph" published this information:
      "I am reliably informed that a whole, entirely new, division of Italian troops was landed at Vineroz last week and that until these men can be brought into the line north of Sagunto the insurgents are unlikely to make much further headway."

      2967
      The correspondent goes on to say:
      "Among the planes massed on this front, there are known to be three groups of Savoia bombers, each group consisting of 27 machines. In addition, there is a group of 86 Junkers, now reinforced by 83 planes of the same make—complex craft which appear to have two rudders. Then there are nearly 200 Fiat chasers and numerous squadrons of Messerschmidts. They have not escaped losses."
      The point of these observations is this: The right hon. Gentleman laid it down for our acceptance that one of the basic principles of his foreign policy is that he is prepared to enter into agreement with those who are ready to adjust their conduct and to accept international standards. I would ask him whether he regards these incidents as in accordance with decent international standards. Moreover, the Press of yesterday and to-day leads us to the conclusion that even now, in spite of the Anglo-Italian Agreement, Italian forces are still being sent into Spain. Is this good international conduct? Is it a sound basis upon which to establish decent Anglo-Italian relationships? I ask the Prime Minister—are these things true? We spend enormous sums of money on our Secret Service and it must be represented in every port around Spain. It must be here, there and everywhere. Surely, with the vast sum of money expended on it the Secret Service ought to be able to equip the Prime Minister with knowledge as to whether this agreement is being faithfully observed or otherwise. I think I am entitled to ask the Prime Minister, as I now do, is it or is it not the fact that the Italians are still pouring men and material into Spain in spite of the agreement between ourselves and Italy? These considerations are vital if the House is to have any belief or faith in the bona fides of the opposite party to the Anglo-Italian Agreement.
      I appreciate the Prime Minister's intentions. He wants to secure as quickly as possible peace in the Mediterranean—a very desirable end. But I suggest that we cannot really purchase peace at the price of silence in the sight of these endless iniquities perpetrated in Spain day after day. Indeed, I make the assertion that we are silent because of the very one-sided character of the non-intervention policy which we have followed. Because of it we have abandoned the
      2968
      Basques who only 20 years ago in the Great War sacrificed hundreds, if not more, of their people in an effort to serve us. Now 20 years later we have withheld from them the means of defending their own liberty. We have allowed scores of our own seamen to be done to death while plying their legitimate trade; we have watched the violation of international law and we have been unfaithful to a fellow member of the League of Nations, and that fellow member is not General Franco but the Spanish Government. It is the Spanish Government with whom we have relations, and I suggest therefore that we are unfaithful to our obligations to the League in treating the Spanish Government in this shabby way. There has been nothing like it since the days of Pontius Pilate, the first great non-interventionist. How long is this farce to go on? How long are we to tolerate this one-sided non-intervention agreement which in fact works in the direction of intervention on one side?
      We are told that the Anglo-Italian Agreement is dependent upon the Spanish situation. I was glad indeed to hear the Prime Minister define a little more clearly what he regards as a settlement in Spain before the Anglo-Italian Agreement can come into operation. It is the first time we have had a definition of it, although it was not too clear this afternoon. The House rises on Friday for some considerable time and I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether we are to understand that the Anglo-Italian Agreement may be put into operation although the House of Commons may have no opportunity in the next few months of expressing its mind and will concerning it? That really is a most important matter, because if what happens in Spain leads to a victory for General Franco, which I fervently hope may not be the case, it will mean a tremendous impetus to the Fascist movement in Europe; it will mean, as I see it, enormous complications for our nearest neighbour and ally France; it will almost inevitably involve the transference of a fair body of French soldiers to guard the Pyrenees frontier, with a consequential effect upon the nature of our commitments to France. Therefore, if it is to be a Fascist victory, then clearly this House, representing one of the ancient democracies of Europe, ought to have a word to say on the matter. If, on the

      2969
      other hand, the Anglo-Italian Agreement is to be implemented on the basis of the status quo, then that too would have implications upon which this House ought to express its mind and its will.
      In regard to the problem of Czechoslovakia, I am bound to say that I was agreeably surprised—I will be quite candid—by the tone of the Prime Minister's remarks. We have been rather led to believe, by reading the organs favourable to the Government, that there seemed to be a desire to bring more pressure to bear on the Czechoslovakian Government to make terms with the Sudeten Germans. I would emphasise the point of view which the Prime Minister himself expressed, as I understood him. He is anxious that the Czechoslovakian Government shall determine how far in their judgment, not in our judgment, they can go in making concessions to the Sudeten Germans. That is very material. There is a school of thought in this country and in this House which seems to be anxious that exceptional pressure should be brought to bear on the Czechoslovakian Government to make concessions even to the length of invading the autonomy of their State. By all means let the Czechoslovakian Government strive with all its might to arrive at an agreeable settlement with the representatives of the Germans in the Sudeten lands, but they must be allowed to determine for themselves at what point the unity, the independence and the integrity of their State demand that they shall make no further concessions.
      May I put this point? There are people in Germany who are very blatant and very loud in their demands and pleas on behalf of minorities outside their own Government. Before people begin to make demands and pleas for minorities outside their own territory they might show a little humanity in their treatment of minorities inside their own territories. When they show a little humanity to the Jews and especially to innocent Jewish children we shall begin to believe in their right to interfere in the proper government of people outside their own territory. The Prime Minister told us that Lord Runciman has undertaken the difficult and delicate task of studying this problem on the spot in Czechoslovakia. I entirely agree that it is a very difficult, intricate, and somewhat thankless task at
      2970
      best. I am glad the Prime Minister made it clear that Lord Runciman goes on his own authority and nobody else's, not as an adjudicator or arbitrator, but rather as an adviser and conciliator. If he went in any other capacity his mission would speedily prove unsuccessful.
      In his three governing principles the Prime Minister said that he wanted to be faithful and loyal to those who accepted the ordinary standards of international conduct. Let me make this observation in regard to Czechoslovakia. There is no Government in Europe that has made a more solid, more sustained, or more constructive effort on behalf of the League of Nations since the end of the War than Czechoslovakia. They cannot be accused either in the letter or in the spirit of having departed from what are accepted as proper standards of international conduct, and they are entitled to our complete sympathy, and, if possible, our support.
      Lastly, there is the question of the Far East. Here again, as in Spain and in Czechoslovakia, the Government of China is a member of the League of Nations, and, therefore, we have our League obligations to China. But apart from these general obligations we, with other countries, have entered into special obligations under the Resolution which was carried in May of this year. Let me read the terms of the Resolution:
      "The Council … earnestly urges members of the League to do their utmost to give effect to the recommendations contained in previous resolutions of the Assembly and Council in this matter and to take serious and sympathetic consideration of the requests they may receive from the Chinese Government in conformity with the said resolutions; expresses its sympathy with China in her heroic struggle for the maintenance of her independence and territorial integrity threatened by the Japanese invasion and in the suffering thereby inflicted on her people."
      It seems to me that we are obliged to do what we can to fulfil the terms of that Resolution which was carried as recently as May of this year. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the question of a loan. Obviously the Government know better than I do whether there are difficulties in that respect, but I would make the observation that it was only recently that legislation was passed by the House permitting the Government to make a special loan of about £10,000,000 to Turkey. For my part, I was entirely in agreement with that. If it was possible

      2971
      in regard to Turkey, surely we could have done the same thing for China, if China had so desired. But apparently the conditions are unfavourable to that. Nevertheless, I rejoice that there was a suggestion in the Prime Minister's speech that other methods may be devised whereby China may be assisted in her titanic and heroic struggle to preserve her independence.
      The Prime Minister concluded his remarks with a reference to the relative incapacity of the League in recent months to fulfil all that we hoped of it. I believe that in the long run the nations will find that the League, or an improved League, will be vital to the well-being of the world. Difficulties will be bound to arise between the nations—no one can remove them completely—and it will be possible to settle them only in one of two ways, either by the method of discussion or by the method of force. As long as we desire the method of discussion, the League method—improved, if you like—is the only method available to us. Therefore, I urge the Government to stand tenaciously by the League conception, to develop, strengthen and improve the League, for after all, it is the only bulwark against the dethronement of law in the world.
      On the second day of this Session, I asked—and the House entirely agreed with my proposition—that something should be done with regard to the bombing of civilians. Six months have now passed since then. The other day, I asked the Prime Minister what had happened, and he said that he had to prepare schemes before submitting them to other nations. I appreciate the difficulty and the propriety of doing that, but now, at the end of the Session, I renew my plea that the Government should make a fervent appeal to other nations to stop this horrible practice that is increasing among the nations. I do not say that we can make war a gentlemanly business, but if we could circumscribe it to some degree, if we could remove the menace of war from the air and all that that implies, we should bring some little mental relief to the peoples of the world. So I conclude by repeating that, in my judgment, we have to build upon the basis of the League. Upon that rock the temple of peace must be founded. If it is so founded, no matter what rains of criticism may
      2972
      descend upon it, nor what winds of adversity may whistle about it, the structure will stand, for it will be founded upon the rock.
      6.5 p.m.
      Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: I think there is no hon. Member who will not be in full agreement with the expressions that have fallen from the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) in the latter part of his speech. We must all agree that the foundation upon which to build the peace of the future lies in the reconstitution of the League of Nations, but at the same time, I am sure that most hon. Members will agree that that rebuilding is not likely to be done unless we face the deficiencies which exist in the present erection and realise that we must not place upon this temporary building the burden which we hope to put upon the full structure which we hope to have in the future.
      I wish specially to deal with one aspect only of foreign affairs, but in doing so I would like to make it clear to the House that I am not less interested than every other hon. Member in matters in Spain or in Central Europe. I refrain from dealing with them as I know many Members desire to speak. Before passing to the specific aspect of foreign affairs with which I want to deal, however, I would like to say, and I am sure every other hon. Member agrees, how much we hope the mission which Lord Runciman is undertaking will be crowned with success. There is no question that that mission will be a most difficult and delicate one, but if Lord Runciman, with his long experience of men and affairs, can find some means of bringing these two parts of the same nation together and in that way help to bring about peace in Central Europe, he will have achieved a task which will entitle him to the gratitude not only of this country but of all the nations of Europe.
      The subject which I wish to refer to in detail is the situation in China. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister both dealt with the position of our trade there and the latter with our desire to assist China. Everybody will be gratified to hear the Prime Minister's statement that it is the intention of the Government to do everything in their power to maintain British rights and interests in that

      2973
      country. I think it is desirable, in a debate of this kind, that I should make it clear to the House that those of us who, in recent weeks, have put on the Order Paper so many questions in connection with trade and the difficulties under which our merchants in China are working, have not done so without having behind them chapter and verse for every one of the accusations, if I may use that word, that have been made.
      Occasionally I find, when speaking from this side of the House, on behalf of British trade in one part of the world or another, that one is a little apt to be attacked on the basis that we are endeavouring to preserve the rights and interests of those who make large profits out of British trade. I would like to remind hon. Members of a statement which was made in the House at the time of the troubles in Shanghai a good many years ago, when British troops were sent to the British concession there. I have not looked up the statement, and therefore I am speaking from memory, but I think I am accurate when I say that a member of the Government, I think it was the Prime Minister of that day, stated that that trouble, very confined comparatively speaking, was estimated to cause loss of employment to no less than 60,000 people in Great Britain. That outbreak was very limited when compared with the War in the Far East to-day. Therefore, I feel that one need make no excuse for pointing out how very serious are the effects of the present situation in China on those trading there and in turn on employment in this country. We are a little tired of hearing assertions that the Japanese Government intend strictly to respect British rights and interests and maintain the open door in China. Those are very familiar statements, but I wonder whether any of our good friends even in Japan would be really surprised if we said that we would like to see a little more action on those lines and perhaps fewer statements to the effect that they intend to work in a way entirely friendly to British trade and industry.
      I will give one or two examples of what is happening. One or two questions have been put to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the subject of the wool trade with China. That is a trade which, before
      2974
      the present troubles in China, was almost exclusively in British hands. Large sums have been spent by British firms, in co-operation with the Chinese in past years, in setting up machinery for the cleaning and packing of that wool. Most of the wool is shipped, I understand, to the United States of America. Until recent days, Japanese firms had no share in that trade, but recently a syndicate was set up, apparently under the authority of the Japanese Government, which now monopolises the trade. The Chinese are not now allowed to sell to British firms, and recently, long-established British houses sending their buyers to Chinese headquarters, from which the wool comes, have been told that the Chinese are not allowed to sell to them. There may be no legal embargo—that, I think, is one of the replies we have had on the subject—but it does not alter the fact that British firms are unable to buy the wool. The Japanese have secured the whole of this trade in which previously they had very little interest. Apart from anything else, the getting down of the wool to the ports is made impossible because the Japanese take good care that the freight is not available for British interests.
      Again, with regard to the North China railways, we are advised that plans have been prepared to weld the whole of these railways into one system in conjunction with Manchuria. The Pekin-Mukden Railway was built with British capital, about £500,000 of which is still outstanding, and British engineers are, or were until recently, employed. I wonder how many of them will lose their jobs and how much British capital will be lost if this new plan is carried into effect. I do not want to give details on all these various matters, but to refer to them just sufficiently to give an idea to hon. Members as to how serious the situation is. I will give another instance. Almost every firm in the Far East is experiencing difficulties with regard to cables. Either the cables are mutilated or delayed; and they say that others who ay not British do not necessarily suffer in the same way. All these things show that there is definite interference with British trade.
      Perhaps the worst aspect is that of shipping. Before the war, apart from a few Chinese steamers and junks, the greater part of the coastal trade was in

      2975
      the hands of British firms. It is now proposed to set up a Japanese monopoly which will oust us. At Tsingtao, probably one of the best harbours in North China and in a peaceful area at the present time, action is being taken which is destroying British trade not only now but probably for a number of years to come. No British ship is allowed alongside the wharves, no through passengers are allowed on British ships, and they may load only in the stream, whereas the Japanese ships can go alongside the wharves and load freely, as even German ships may do. I do not think it is stating the case too strongly to describe what is taking place as an attempt on the part of the Japanese to see how much the British Government will stand. They seem to think that if we stand for that proposition we can be expected to stand for nearly anything.
      Then, an even more serious case, the great Whang-poo Conservancy Board is not allowed to function. Its duty is to keep the river clear at Shanghai, and the dredging of the river is essential, not only for British, but for international trade and the shipping of all nations. The work was carried out with funds raised by a levy on all shipping. I do not say that it is a work which is of the same importance or magnitude as the Suez Canal, but it is clearly of vital importance to all trading interests to China that this dredging should continue to keep the waterways open. The dredgers and plant were seized by the Japanese many months ago and I am informed that they have not allowed any continuance of this work notwithstanding the fact that, as I say, it is really international in character. I suppose it is wrong, in advance of knowing all the facts, to assign reasons for an action of that kind, but it is difficult to avoid repeating what has been said that there are suggestions of a future Japanese concession further down the river and that it might not be against the interests of Japanese traders in the future if Shanghai were left nearly high and dry. At any rate, whatever the reason for it, the action which is now being taken is very detrimental to British trade and to the trade of all other countries except Japan and even that exception at the moment seems doubtful.
      I do not wish to weary the Committee with details, but many other instances
      2976
      could be given of the conditions under which British trade is endeavouring to carry on its operations in China at the present time. I do wish, however, to make an appeal to the Government. I know their difficulties, and I, like other speakers, regret that the Government have not been able to see their way to grant a loan to China. It is not for those who do not know all the circumstances and certainly it is not for me to criticise the Government's decision. The Prime Minister said that they came to that decision after considerable thought and discussion and I am sure that there was a keen desire on the part of the Government to assist China in any way that was possible. None the less, I, personally, am sorry for China's sake and frankly I am sorry for Great Britain's sake also that a loan was not granted. If we look at it even from the lower motive of the future of our trade in the Far East, such a loan would have done more than anything else, I believe, to ensure good feeling for this country in the future, because China would have greatly appreciated any help that we had been able to render her in that way. Anybody who knows how the Chinese have acknowledged such assistance as has been rendered, by the Lord Mayor's Fund, for example, and other measures for bringing relief and comfort to those suffering as a result of the war, can have no doubt about the wonderful reception which would have been given to assistance from us in the form of a loan and what it would have meant to China to-day. As I say, we do not know enough about the circumstances to criticise the Government's decision; they alone were in a position to judge, but, personally, I am deeply sorry that they found themselves unable to grant the loan.
      Apart from that, however, surely the Government could, in connection with our trade interests, take a stronger line than they are taking at present. There have been, I think, three cases in which we have taken a more or less definite line, in comparatively small matters perhaps, but with very good results. First, there was the very serious demand made by the Japanese in regard to the Shanghai municipality, which, if agreed to, would have meant in effect that it would have become mainly a Japanese corporation. That demand was resisted and the Japanese gave way. There was another

      2977
      case in which the Japanese demanded to be allowed to search the British concession for a certain man who was wanted by them. The British General who was there at that time resisted that demand and after much trouble, again they gave way. Another and more interesting case was the seizure of the "Tatung," a British vessel, by the Japanese. At first they refused to give up the vessel, but His Majesty's ship "Cricket," which was on the spot, was ordered to clear for action and to fetch the vessel. The Japanese protested and said there was bound to be a very unfortunate incident, but in the end they gave up the vessel.
      I suggest to the Government that it would be possible for them to take a stronger line than they are taking now. They are making no demands that are not reasonable and they are making few demands which affect British trade alone. They are only making demands in cases where military interests are really not affected. In many cases the Japanese argue military necessity where it does not exist and in cases where that necessity cannot be substantiated the Japanese ought to do everything they can to carry out their professions that they intend to respect British rights and interests. I hope that nothing which I have said will be regarded as being inspired by any anti-Japanese feeling. We have been very good friends with Japan in the past and nothing would give the people of this country greater pleasure than to see our country very good friends with Japan once again. But I think that the Japanese perhaps above all other people in the world respect and admire strength.
      Colonel Wedgwood: Firmness.
      Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: Yes, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman expresses exactly what I mean. They admire and respect firmness, determination, strength and honesty of purpose, but to my mind they despise and bully timidity. I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary when he replies will be able to say that the Government, are making even stronger representations than they have been making up to now, and that if necessary, they will take such action as they took in the one or two cases which I have described. It is possible that on some such lines as those, we may be able to restore trade, as far as it can be restored,
      2978
      under present conditions in China. In doing that, we shall not only benefit our merchants and others interested in trade in China, but we shall increase employment in this country or at any rate avoid what might otherwise be a rise in unemployment. At the same time, we may perhaps be able to bring nearer the time when we shall restore peace in the East by acting as mediator between two countries with both of which we have important and long standing interests. We have long been closely connected with both countries in friendship and peace and desire to see them prosper.
      6.24 p.m.
      Mr. R. Acland: It is perhaps a little late in the day to be making speeches such as that to which we have just listened. I do not recollect that the Federation of British Industries gave much support to the campaign which we of the Opposition parties conducted, in order to suggest to this country that, if we weakly allowed the Japanese to overrun Manchuria, the next thing that would happen would be serious inroads into our own interests. On the contrary, I seem to remember a campaign conducted to suggest that it would be a good thing to buy off Japanese desires for any part of our trade by allowing them to overrun Manchuria. I ask myself, therefore, whether the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) is justified in demanding all this strength from a Government which has told us—as far as I can remember without any opposition from the hon. Member—that they are, not unwilling, but unable to protect our trade interests against an infinitely weaker Power, infinitely nearer home.
      Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: Will the hon. Member forgive me, if I interrupt him in order to say that I have nothing whatever to do with the Federation of British Industries?
      Mr. Acland: I thought the hon. Member was speaking on behalf of British trade in general which, in other respects, is represented by the Federation of British Industries, but I accept the hon. Member's statement that he and that body, although they represent the same thing, are entirely separate and distinct from each other. This Debate on foreign affairs is being conducted in a much better atmosphere than some of the other

      2979
      Debates which we have had on these questions. Nobody on this side of the Committee has been accused of desiring to plunge the country into war for the sake of establishing a Government with which we would agree, and nobody on the other side of the House has been accused of desiring to "rig" foreign policy, so as to create world conditions in which progressive politics would become an impossibility. But I think hon. Members opposite ought to realise a little more than they do how great is the general support given to the views on foreign policy held by hon. Members on this side. The hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) told us that the Opposition parties were almost alone in the world in criticising the foreign policy of the Government. A study of the free Press of the world, and even of some of the Government-controlled Press of the world, would, on the contrary, reveal an almost universal bewilderment at the policy which is being pursued by the Government. The Government should not neglect the evidences of a growing public opinion which supports the view held on this side of the Committee. They cannot brush aside as of no account the devastating letter in which Viscount Cecil severed his connection with His Majesty's Government:
      "I do not recall any incident in British history at all comparable. I do not believe any other British Prime Minister would have made the speech made by Mr. Chamberlain. It seems to me inconsistent with British honour and international morality."
      Hon. Members opposite cannot brush aside Lord Cecil as a hot-headed young idealist, nor yet as a party politician who is out for his own ends.
      Mr. Wise: Will the hon. Member tell us the circumstances of Dr. Garnett's resignation from the League of Nations Union?
      Mr. Acland: I was just going on to suggest to hon. Members opposite that they could not brush aside the declaration of the League of Nations Union, presided over by Lord Lytton, who is not a Member of either of the Opposition parties, a body of 300,000 members, including all those who have made it most closely their concern to study the course of international relations, electing their executive committee democratically, that committee containing many men and women of high
      2980
      standing who are not associated with either of the Opposition parties, and that body consistently, in these last months, passing resolutions which I will not say are diametrically opposed to, but are more and more divergent from, the policy of His Majesty's Government. Nor can the Government ignore the declaration of those II bishops, including an archbishop, who said:
      "We wish to affirm … that there is a clearer moral justification for the use of armed force in defence of international law than for a war in defence of territorial possessions or economic interest. We are far from satisfied that this order of priority is accepted by the Government."
      Speaking on the bombing of ships in Spain, they said:
      "Not so much in defence of British interests as in defence of law, we hold that the Government should take effective action to check these outrages and should face considerable risks with that object."
      Nor should the Government entirely ignore the Council of Action. [Interruption.] If there is any tendency on the part of hon. Members opposite to discount, as of no account whatever, the resolutions that are passed by that body—
      Mr. Wise: Nobody takes any notice of them at all.
      Mr. Acland: Tell me some more about the Council of Action.
      Mr. Crossley: They ran the campaign of the Labour candidate at the Stafford by-election.
      Mr. Acland: Nine out of the ten most famous and renowned leaders of the Nonconformist Church are associated with that body as members of its Council and of its committees, men entirely divorced from either of the political parties, men who would not associate themselves with a body which consistently and roundly condemns the policy of His Majesty's Government if they themselves were in support of the policy which is being pursued by the Government. Let it be known by the people in this country outside that hon. Members opposite mock at resolutions which have been endorsed by these independent leaders of this great section of Christian thought in our country.
      Mr. Wise: They always opposed Government candidates.
      Mr. Acland: The fact that they have at elections opposed the Government candidates does not prove that there is anything wrong with these leaders of Christian thought in the country, but it proves that there is something wrong with the Government candidates. We have from all sides evidence of a mass of public opinion outside the ranks of what are called professional party politics growing ever more critical of the policy that is being pursued by the Government. The Government ought to treat our advice and our proposals on the basis that they are receiving the support of this wide public opinion, and I submit that the Government do not give us that treatment to which we are entitled when it is suggested that we would like to divide the world into Fascists and democracies so as to make friends with the one and fight the other. We do not want to divide the world into Fascists and democracies, into dictatorships and democracies, but we do say that when there exist in the world nations determined to achieve their own ends by violence, then, not by our will but by the logic of events, the world is automatically divided into nations which have renounced war as an instrument of policy and nations which have not, and it is then the duty of the Government of this country to proceed upon such a line of policy, in those circumstances, in a world so divided, as will lead this country, not through the next six weeks, but right through, to permanent peace.
      There are two policies that have been suggested. One is to make concessions in the hope that the nations desiring to achieve their ends by violence will be satisfied. As to that, I will quote, in further support of our general attitude, the words of the late Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs:
      "The idea that we could eliminate causes of friction between us and the authoritarian States by a series of concessions on one side was clearly futile"
      That is one policy. The other is that we should stand firm in the hope that those Governments, seeing that they could achieve nothing by force, would turn their attention to the remedying of their legitimate grievances by recourse to reason. It is only fair to say that whenever we have stood firm the dangers of war, so much raised up against us, have proved illusory, and while we have retreated—I will not say because we have retreated—the
      2982
      dangers to peace have steadily increased. I believe that we are now facing probably the most dangerous month that Europe has faced since the last War. I have no wish to be alarmist, but when we heard those comforting words from the Prime Minister, I could not help remembering what seemed to me the more realistic words of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill):
      "Now, after Austria has been struck down, we are all disturbed and alarmed, but in a little while there may be another pause. There may not—we cannot tell. But if there is a pause, then people will be saying, 'There now, see how the alarmists have been confuted; Europe has calmed down, it has all blown over, and the war scare has passed away.' My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will perhaps repeat what he said a few weeks ago, that the tension in Europe is greatly relaxed. The 'Times' will write a leading article to say how serious those people look who on the morrow of the Austrian incorporation raised a clamour for exceptional action in foreign policy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th March, 1938; col. 1453, Vol. 333.]
      I fear that, whereas great German guns were not moved up to the Czechoslovakian frontier on 21st May, they are being moved there now. I say that we shall only meet the situation by standing firm, and I suggest that there was another speech by the right hon. Member for Epping in which he showed how we should stand firm:
      "I know that some of my hon. Friends … will laugh when I offer them this advice. I say, 'Laugh, but listen.' I affirm that the Government should express in the strongest terms our adherence to the Covenant of the League of Nations and our resolve to procure, by international action, the reign of law in Europe."
      He ended by saying:
      "Before we cast away this hope, this cause and this plan, which I do not at all disguise has an element of risk, let those who wish to reject it ponder well and earnestly upon what will happen to us if, when all else has been thrown to the wolves, we are left to face our fate alone."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1938; cols. 98 and 100, Vol. 333.]
      When he said that, I thought he said it with the acceptance of the whole House, and I ask myself whether that policy has been pursued since then and why the House, which seemed to accept it then, has since gone back on itself.
      The most essential thing is that we should stand firm with France. That has been said many times. We should not of course, stand by her if she were deliberately and wantonly to invite war by attacking one of her neighbours. She

      2983
      could not expect our support then, but we can leave that out. Is there any denial of this, that in any circumstances which are conceivably likely to arise this country could not tolerate, as every Foreign Office in Europe knows, a Europe in which France had been beaten by one of her neighbours? If that is so, is it not clear that we should be bound to intervene to prevent such a Europe, and is it not clear, will it be denied by any Minister or Member in this House, or can it be unknown to any Foreign Office in Europe which takes a reasonably realistic view of the situation, that we would not commit the folly of delaying our intervention until our intervention was too late? That being so, and our independence and our strength being bound up inextricably with the independence of France, I submit to His Majesty's Government that we should pursue a policy of supporting France in those things which the French clearly recognise as being the most vital for their own safety, and that we should abandon the policy of nagging them to pursue some other course.
      No one can move around in Paris and meet responsible people there without becoming aware of the most terrific pressure that has been put upon France to close the Spanish frontier. That pressure, of course, is not inconsistent with the reply given in this House on 6th July by the Prime Minister, when he said that the Government
      "never suggested that, in present circumstances, the French Government should take unilateral action in closing their frontier."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1938; col. 355, Vol. 338.]
      I understand that the word "unilateral" is the vital word in that sentence, and that the pressure was applied to Portugal at the same time, so that the Prime Minister's answer was strictly accurate, although his supplementary answer, about its having been independent action by the French Government, was not, I think, strictly accurate, having regard to what anybody who moves around in Paris at all must know. In any case, of course, bringing in Portugal does not make very much difference, because, although the Portuguese might close their frontier, arms could get into Spain through the ports.
      2984
      But I have something more specific to say, something almost fantastic, and I would remind the Committee that on the last occasion when seemingly fantastic statements were made from this bench, and when an hon. and courageous Member, raising a matter on the Adjournment, had to leave this House under the jeers of the benches opposite, his assertions were subsequently proved accurate up to the hilt. Unless it is going to be said that a very high authority in France has fabricated—and by "fabricated" I mean physically constructed—a Note, I say that we addressed to the French a Note, on 5th June, informing them that they were prolonging the war in Spain by their policy, informing them that they were alienating and would lose British public opinion unless their frontier was closed, indicating that unless there was a change of policy we would have to consider implementing the Anglo-Italian Agreement forthwith, and making another suggestion which I will not quote.
      I may be accused of mischief making in the statement that I am making, but I have considered my responsibility quite carefully in making it, and I have considered every possibility that what I am saying is capable of doing damage. If this Note is admitted by the Government, the Government must at once put themselves right with public opinion by putting on record, immediately, that the policy implied in the Note is repudiated. Alternatively, the existence of the Note will be vigorously repudiated, and I have already indicated precisely what is the extent of my own doubt as to whether or not the Note was sent, but apart from the doubt that I have expressed, I myself can feel no doubt about it. Of course, the French Government know precisely whether or not the Note was sent. If it was not sent, well and good. If, in fact, it was, the French Government will be able to judge by the strength of any repudiation whether they really need fear the threatened loss of public opinion in this country.
      Whatever feeling His Majesty's Government may have as to the probability of General Franco leaving his allies in Spain or of the effect of his failure, I suggest that the French Government have very firmly informed His Majesty's Government that they have no doubts at all on the subject of Franco disposing of his allies and that they regard with grave

      2985
      disquiet the prospect of German air bases on the north coast of Spain and in Spanish Mediterranean ports, I do not say under the control, but available to the use of the Italians. I wonder whether the Prime Minister, in saying that there was universal agreement with the French, universally agrees with them in that belief also. If His Majesty's Government really believe what they say in talking about Anglo-French co-operation, they ought from now onwards, for the sake of avoiding the ultimate certainty of that kind of war in which France would be almost inevitably beaten, pursue a policy having for its object a solution of the Spanish problem which will render those menaces to the safety of France impossible in the judgment of sober statesmen.
      This policy involves five things. It involves the taking of steps by His Majesty's Government to inform themselves of the extent of Italian and German intervention. I support the hon. Member who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench in that. I wonder whether it is true—I have every belief that it is—that the French Government have recently told His Majesty's Government that they have definite evidence of greatly intensified Italian effort in Spain in the last few months. I wonder whether that is another of the subjects about which the Prime Minister would tell us he is in cordial agreement with the expressions of the French Government. I suggest that we should give up this pretence that we cannot protect our ships from illegal air attack. If the Government said to us, "In all the circumstances of the case, non-intervention being what it is, we do not choose to protect them," that would have been coherent, although I would not have agreed with it. To say that we cannot, if we choose, with our Navy protect our ships from General Franco, is really a little more than the ordinary Englishman can be expected to swallow. I suggest that the Government should call into conference every responsible journalist who has returned from Spain in the last six weeks, and address to them this frank question: "Do you think there is any likelihood of the Spanish Government being beaten in anything like the near future?" The Government would he surprised at the unanimity of the answers. For some time we have to show to other countries that there is a limit to
      2986
      the lengths that they can go in bad faith without provoking us.
      In the terms of the resolution of the League of Nations Union, passed many months ago, I would submit to the Government that they should let it be known that, if it is found that either the Italians or Germans are intervening, or that Franco and the Italians are indulging in delaying tactics over the withdrawal of foreign troops, we would support the French if they chose to put the two sides on equal terms by reopening the frontier. Many hon. Members would prefer a solution by General Franco, and many hon. Members on the other side would prefer a solution by a Government victory, but if we take Britain as a whole, what is most desired is a solution by an armistice agreement. If we want that we must put the two sides on equal terms and not keep support from one while allowing it to go to the other.
      Lastly, may we hope that, whatever the Prime Minister means by a settlement in Spain, he will not agree to bringing into force the Anglo-Italian Treaty until Spain has entirely ceased to be a cause of international tension and danger. That will not be when one side or the other has been crushed down and perhaps massacred. It will be when those German air bases have ceased to exist on the north coast of Spain.
      6.50 p.m.
      Mr. Crossley: The hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) spoke in some contradistinction to the speech of his leader the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair), whose epithets always sound to me like the names of battleships. I was afraid at one moment that the epoch-making revelations of the hon. Member for Barnstaple would wake up the right hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Benn). The hon. Member was very aggrieved because the Government were not taking more notice of the various resolutions of the so-called peace societies. In particular, he mentioned the League of Nations Union and the Council of Action, but he did not mention the body which is more powerful than either of those and which largely runs the League of Nations Union. I refer to the International Peace Campaign. He was very wrong to deal with one aspect of this matter and not mention the resignation

      2987
      of Dr. Garnett, who resigned because, in his opinion, it was impossible any longer to consider the League of Nations Union a non-party body. Until recently I was a co-opted member of the executive council of the League of Nations Union. I wish to respect the secrecy of its councils, but I am perfectly aware that Dr. Garnett did not voluntarily resign and that a resolution was carried against him. I have been wondering all these months, when resolution after resolution was passed by that body, how long it could go on being considered a non-party body. I believe that it would be better now if the Government were to leave that organisation for good and all, and to leave it for what it is in practically every constituency. I have tried to make it in my constituency a non-party body as far as I could, but it is known to everybody that it is focus of opposition thought in every constituency.
      I agree with the hon. Member on one point in his speech and I disagree with one point in the fine speech of the Prime Minister. I cannot help thinking that even if things are a little lighter to-day, they are in all conscience dark enough. In these dreary days at the end of July, this is the first year I have not felt like a schoolboy going for my holiday. It is the first time I have felt that the power of Mr. Speaker to call us together might more than possibly be exercised. Two quotations come to my mind. One is from Horace, and I wish I could live up to it in the next few days. It is:
      Omnem crede diem tibi diluxisse supremum,
      which means, being translated, "Live each day to the uttermost and believe it to be your last." I cannot help feeling that that is a proper quotation for these days. The other one, from Dryden, is in English, and runs:

      "A daring pilot in adversity

      Pleased with the danger when the waves run high."

      I do not suppose that the second line can possibly apply to our Prime Minister, but I do not think that the speeches that have came from the Opposition side of the House will lessen the thankfulness that is felt by most Members on this side that their affairs are for the moment in the hands of "a daring pilot in adversity." I hope that he will be able to lead us out of adversity and into a haven
      2988
      of tranquillity, that a bygone Baldwinian world which, even if the security was sometimes not very well founded, was at least a much more comfortable world to live in than the present world. We are anxious about many parts of the world. I think that perhaps most of all we are anxious about Bohemia and the fate of Czechoslovakia. I am glad to see that Lord Runciman is going there. I do not believe a better man or one with a more impartial record could go. At the same time, my fear has always been that Herr Henlein will not be allowed to make his own terms with the Czechoslavokian Government.
      I do not like these rumours in the German newspapers of troop movements. Clearly they are intended to convey the impression that Czechoslovakia might be herself an aggressor, as if lambs ever in fact attack lions. It is my strong opinion that if there were any weakening of the Government in the attitude which they have taken up this summer, by which quite possibly they saved a major conflagration, disaster might indeed come. The hon. Member for Barnstaple talked about wanting an ideological war. I do not suppose there are 2 per cent. of the people in the country who want to fight an ideological war.
      Mr. Wise: Except the Opposition.
      Mr. Bellenger: That is not true.
      Mr. Crossley: All the same, we must want the conditions to arise in which the Anglo-Italian Agreement can be brought into force. Whatever our bygone disagreements of opinion on this side of the House last February, there cannot now be anything but hopes for its success. I would like to say something about the Spanish Civil War. There have been two decisive battles in that war. The first was fought outside Bilbao and it sealed the fate of Viscaya. The second was fought at the Government's own choosing last December at Teruel and it made inevitable the march to the sea. The third is being fought to-day and it is being fought by two separate armies, one advancing along the coast and now held up in the Orange Groves, and the other completely separated from it by a trackless mountain range advancing down the road from Teruel. The Government might quite possibly within the next few months have to face a new situation in Spain. At the moment that battle is not decided one

      2989
      way or the other, but if General Franco in fact cuts off the ports in the east of Spain from Madrid it is quite possible that within the next few months organised resistance might cease in the southern part. It would cease very soon after the lifeline with Valencia was cut.
      In these circumstances I want to make three observations. In the first place I am extremely glad to hear that Sir Robert Hodgson is going back. It is a very dangerous precedent for a representative to be absent. A pregnant example was the absence of the British Ambassador from Constantinople during the summer of 1914, and I cannot help thinking that British interests will be better served when Sir Robert Hodgson goes back. [An HON. MEMBER: "Mexico."] We have acted right through in Mexico wholly in co-operation with the United States, which ought to please hon. Members opposite. The second observation I wish to make is about bombing. I hope the Government will steadily maintain a clear distinction between the bombing of docks and harbours and the ships in them by high-flying aeroplanes which no country is going to forego in a war, and the deliberate bombing of ships outside harbours by low-flying aeroplanes. It is a distinction that ought never to be lost sight of. Mr. Bilmeir and his friends deserve no protection. They are there for exactly the same reason as the profiteers in the last War. If it was not for the risks they would not be there.
      Miss Rathbone: Will the hon. Member not admit that they are there for the same purpose as all the neutral shipping that came to our ports during the Great War and to which our safety was due, because we could not have been provisioned without them? They are carrying on legitimate trade and bringing food to the civilian populations, who would otherwise starve.
      Mr. Crossley: Most ships' captains are always ready to run a blockade. Most of the ships that came during the War got huge freights, which made it worth their while to take the risk. If there was not a very severe risk, they would not be in the trade at all. The third remark I wish to make is that if it should come to the granting of belligerent rights, which is not very likely, or if, as is more probable, a neutral port is arranged in the east of Spain, I hope we shall arrange a contraband list which will be consistent
      2990
      with the sort of contraband list that we should demand if our Navy was engaged in a war, because it is useless to say to-day that food, oil, and coal are any less contraband than the instruments of war themselves or any less vital to the waging of a war. After all, civilisation is not centred in Spain. Savagery may be. I am quite convinced that the whole country is behind the Government in attempting, and continuing for two years their effort, to isolate the war from spreading. [Interruption.] Spain is not a menace. Germany is a menace, and a very serious one, too. There is a conflict going on in Germany. It is not actually a conflict of aim but a conflict of timing. There are forces of moderation there. We must not forget that those forces exist, even though at the moment they cannot hold up their heads against the fanatical bourgeois and in some ways puritanical Regime of the Nazis. It is most important that we should give encouragement to those in Germany who believe in moderation. If I might name one at some risk, I believe quite sincerely that General Goering does not want to be involved in a conflict with this country, though there are others who may, most of whom have in their time received the adulation of the journalist Atticus.
      In our effort to present our policy clearly to Germany there is one appeal that I want to make to the House. Let us away in the future with this talk of weakness. I was so glad that the Prime Minister's speech to-day was a strong speech. We are not a weak country. In raw materials, in strategic position, in manufacturing potentialities, above all in our unity as a nation, in the fact that we have a progressive Right and a moderate Left and that we are unscourged by Fascism and Communism, we are a united nation and a strong nation, and every German is willing to believe that we are a strong nation. Recently the Turkish Foreign Minister said, "England occasionally loses a battle but she never loses a war." That consideration is uppermost in the minds of hundreds of thousands of Germans. Also we stand for a great many good things—for decency, order and conciliation. A friend of mine the other day was very much incensed at the festival in Vienna to the murderers of Dr. Dolfuss and he wrote a letter and allowed me to copy it

      2991
      and I propose to read it to the House. It was to a high official in the Nazi party. He asked me whether he should send it or tear it up and I told him to send it:
      "I cannot forbear, though reluctantly, to tell you in what horror and revulsion the festival to the murderers of Dr. Dolfuss is held in England. Dr. Dolfuss may have opposed your policy but of his sincerity and courage there can be no doubt. He was deliberately allowed to bleed to death. He was denied the consolation of a priest.
      If you insist on war you will find us a united nation; not indeed united in our desire for war—no one here desires that—but united and strong in our knowledge that we should be fighting against the spread of a philosophy which can glory in so savage a commemoration."
      Everyone wants conciliation, but there can be no satisfactory conciliation with Germany except through our strength, and there can be no settlement or peace with Germany unless Germany quite clearly understands that we are making a settlement, or peace, because we want to and not because we have to.
      I should like to say a word about propaganda. The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Wakefield) told me the other day that he was attending a conference in Rome. The British Government put in two or three papers and the German Government plastered the conference with papers of everything that the Germans were doing for the welfare of their people. Our people may have different ideals. They may praise the ideal more of liberty than of self-sacrifice, though they are prepared for self-sacrifice if it comes to it. I think we ought to tell the world something more, too. In face of the propaganda bill, of the equivalent of millions of pounds in some countries—I believe something like £8,000,000 a year in Germany—we spend practically nothing. A Minister and a Ministry of Propaganda may be very distasteful to the majority of those on the Front Bench but I cannot help feeling that a well equipped and well financed department of propaganda would be a most valuable department at the Foreign Office.
      I do not see why we should be ashamed of telling the world, because our prestige stands high and every statesman in Europe is looking to England and to its Prime Minister as the principal conciliator and moderator in the turmoils and troubles of that unhappy Continent. The
      2992
      British people have deserved well of their leaders. Our democracy is resolute even if it is not exciting. It is brave even if it does not all the time beat the drum. It does not want an ideological war. It does not want isolation—knows that it is not a practical policy—and it certainly is not pro-German any more to-day. A constituent said to me not long ago, "Never take us for granted, but always remember that we will rise to an occasion." To a private Member it was perhaps an inapt and irrelevant remark, but I do not think I can conceive of a grander sentiment for the Government to bear in mind through the dark and difficult days that confront them.
      7.13 p.m.
      Colonel Wedgwood: The hon. Member seems to dislike a great many things. He started by disliking the League of Nations Union and then he went on to the American democracy.
      Mr. Crossley: I did not say a single word that could be taken as dislike of American democracy.
      Colonel Wedgwood: I must have misunderstood the hon. Member. I thought he said the trouble in Mexico was due to the American democratic control of that country.
      Mr. Crossley: I said we had acted right through that dispute in co-operation with the United States, which ought to please Members on the other side of the House.
      Colonel Wedgwood: I took that for a sneer at the United States. I am glad to know that I was mistaken. It is the League of Nations Union and the democracy on this side which are the hon. Member's pet bugbears. He urged finally that we in this country were a united people. I have no desire to be united with him in any way whatever. I earnestly hope that the Spanish Republican Government will beat the dictatorship in that country and will hold out, not for three months but for three years, until we have a decent Government which will support democracy instead of handcuffing it while the bullies kick it.
      There is one thing in which I agreed with the hon. Member. Anyone who has known Lord Runciman as long as I have will be delighted that he has been selected for this post. Indeed, I wish him so well that I will say nothing on earth in his

      2993
      favour. But I cannot congratulate the Government upon this particular method of achieving peace. It savours too much of the squeezes which the Government have applies to various other countries in the interest of peace. We squoze Abyssinia—if you prefer the Oxford accent, the squeeze was successfully applied by His Majesty's Government to Abyssinia—of course, entirely in the interests of peace and of the dictators. For the last two years the same squeeze has been applied to Spain—of course in the interests of peace, but, also, as it happens, in the interest of the dictators. Now, using again the argument that this is in the interests of peace, we are beginning to squeeze Czechoslovakia. We are urging them to moderation in face of the German demands, and moderation means conceding some of the German demands, and I see that in the solutions proposed for the Czechoslovakian problem is the usual normal method of having autonomous areas for the Sudeten Germans.
      A Sudeten area, given autonomy, given control of the police, will be ruled by the Nazi party in Germany; by the use of the police they will make that autonomous area an integral part of the German Reich. We have only to see what they have done with Danzig to realise what must be the inevitable end of any autonomous area handed over to the rule of the Nazi party. We justify that to ourselves, not only on the ground that we are preserving peace, but that this is in the interests of the people who are given autonomy. Danzig, until it was annexed by the Nazi party, had a large majority of people who were terrified of Nazi rule and who resisted it at the polls as long as they were allowed to. We know perfectly well that among those people whom we class as Sudeten Germans, there was until a year ago a majority who opposed the Nazi rule. The majority are the German working-class Socialists, who live in that area. What have they to gain from Nazi rule? The destruction of their trade unions, the destruction of their co-operative movement, the enslavement of the people. What have the Jews to gain, the Jews who have fled from the surrounding Reich into Czechoslovakia and are trying there to build up again a life for themselves? Directly Nazi rule comes along what happened in Austria will be repeated in the
      2994
      Sudeten Deutsch territory—another 20,000 suicides, another great tragedy.
      What is the excuse for enabling the Nazi rule to be extended all round the frontiers of Czechoslovakia? The excuse is, as ever, that it is to be done in the interests of peace. I tell this House it is in the interests of war, inevitable war, and a war that we shall not be able to win. Every time you sacrifice one of your potential allies to this pathetic desire to appease the tyrants you merely bring nearer and make more inevitable that war which you pretend you are trying to avoid. At present, Czechoslovakia has a natural rugged frontier on three sides of her, and that frontier is armed. Cut off all that Sudeten area from Czechoslovakia and you put Germany across the frontier up against a perfectly easy advance to Prague. You put the big armament factories almost in the German area. You make Bohemia, at any rate, indefensible. The armies would have to retire on to the hills all round Moravia and Bohemia. Once we have this Government congratulating this House of Commons, as we may have directly we meet again, that through its instrumentality an arrangement has been come to which is accepted by Czechs and by Sudeten Deutsch, but which, in effect, delivers over the whole of Czechoslovakia to the Nazi rule, we shall have scrapped one more of our friends and allies, weighted the balance once more against democracy and freedom. We may congratulate ourselves that day that for another three months, or until another July or August comes, we have secured peace, but it will be a peace which is even more precarious than it is at the present day, a peace which can only be maintained ultimately by a war into which we shall go shackled and handcuffed.
      Surely the House can see even now how the situation has changed in the last two years. When Lord Baldwin was Prime Minister there were risks, and I do not think we took sufficient steps to counter those risks, but what a halcyon time it seems, looking back now. Though it was a world which was not safe for democracy, in any case it was safer than it is at the present time. For the last two or three years we have been making these desperate attempts to be friendly with people who hate us and hate our form of rule. We have made to them

      2995
      concession after concession. We have sacrificed the Spanish people. We have sacrificed British honour in the attempt to secure a settlement with Italy and with Germany. And this is the result—that this country, and democracies throughout the world, are in a more difficult position to-day than they were a month ago, a year ago, or three years ago. All the time the Government are saying, "The strain is getting less. They have accepted our last surrender. Surely they will not press us, they will not bully us again, for another month or so."
      As every man in this House knows, ultimately there is something for which our people will fight, and will have to fight. Seeing the trend of events during the last three years, seeing the increased danger to this country which comes from the policy of surrender and weakness, there is not one of us who must not hope—even those on the Government side—that the Government will on some occasion stand firm, because the best way of avoiding war is firmness on the part of the British Government, and its alliance with all those countries in the world which, like us, stand for the rule of law, for peace between men, and for an old-fashioned idea of religion and of honour which transcends the nationality of to-day.
      7.25 p.m.
      Mr. Beechman: I have for just over a year listened with very great interest to the speeches in this House upon foreign affairs and I should like to-night to venture upon an observation upon those speeches, because non-intervention can go too far even in Debate. My comment would be that we hear too little in this House of those major tendencies in the world, long-term tendencies though they may be, which are, in fact, leading towards peace. If, as I believe, there are such tendencies in the world, the dominant feature of the situation seems to me to be that time is on the side of peace. If that be so the supreme need of the world now is to avoid such a major war as will lose us our liberties for good and destroy civilising processes for ever. It is easy to say that we should take an adventurous course, that we should be firm. My right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) rightly told us that there had been occasions when firmness had paid, but there may be an occasion, obviously
      2996
      there are occasions, when it is imperative that we should be patient, move with a delicate tread. On such occasions no doubt those who choose the less showy course, who avoid that firmness to which they are so loudly urged, are called cowards. Well, I am proud of the Prime Minister, because he has had the moral courage to allow himself to be called a coward at times in order to produce peace and to avoid those more showy courses which in my judgment would have led us into war.
      What are these major tendencies which, as I say, are leading us, if we can only allow them to be fulfilled, to peace? In the first place, that very science whose devilish inventions have poured down destruction in Spain and caused abomination in China is all the time bringing the world closer together. That is not a mere phrase but something which is happening rapidly before our very eyes. Secondly, that very science is bringing potentialities for good before the peoples of the world such as have never existed before. And there is among the peoples of the world a consciousness that these potentialities exist and they are determined to see the fruits of peace garnered in a modern world. I believe that in this House we greatly underrate the spirit of mankind. I believe that the spirit of man is such that in the long run it insists on liberty and is determined upon peace and I urge hon. Members to retain, and to show that they retain, their faith in humanity.
      I assert with confidence that there is a determination in the masses of the people all over Europe to avoid war, and that that determination has not been weakened during the last year, as has been suggested, but has been greatly strengthened during that time. I believe that the lessons of Spain and China have not been lost, and that point has been added to the determination to avoid war by the fact that Germany has now gone into a new phase. We have seen a period of supreme exaltation in Germany, but that is now over. I am far from wishing to suggest that the people of Germany have not faith, such as they have had, in their rulers. Nothing is gained by suggesting and reiterating that the dictatorships are on the verge of catastrophe. I think that is a delusion, and a very dangerous delusion at that. It seems to me that Germany is entering upon a new phase in a sense that she cannot now claim that

      2997
      her adventures are of a domestic nature. Those adventures are at an end, and although her regimentation is increasing all the time, any new adventure will take her into totally different spheres where dangers are far greater.
      The suggestion seemed to be made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness that militarists were increasing in number and in danger, but it seems to me that the most extraordinary feature of the world at present is that the professional militarists desire peace as never before in the world. Indeed, I sometimes feel when I listen to hon. Members opposite that the militarists shrink from war even more than they do. There is not a militarist of prominence in Europe, whether commanding on land, on sea or in the air, who would not view with dismay any attempt on the part of his country to enter into a major war. This supreme fear of war which I have attempted to analyse seems to have put before the world an opportunity which it has not had before. I hope I shall not be proved wrong, but I do not take the view that there is a piling up of danger. I believe we are entering upon a phase in which the world for the first time, and Europe in particular, is ready to be told, under that pressure of the fear of war, that political and economic problems can be solved by peaceful means.
      Mr. James Griffiths: By whom?
      Mr. Beechman: I am coming to that point. In that connection I say that it is the duty of this country to show how peaceful solutions can be achieved. I know that hon. Members opposite do not desire war at all and it would be very wrong to suggest that they do so desire, but theirs is a policy—they have admitted it with great frankness in this House—which presupposes that, in the last resort, they must be prepared to enter upon war in order to insist upon the rule of law against those who reject it. There, to my mind, is the fundamental fallacy. You cannot create good will by force. In the present situation you can build a structure of peace only by demonstrating the efficacy of peaceful solution in practice. I do not think it matters in the present situation what the instrument is which produces the peaceful solution, but it is vital that the peaceful solution should be produced, that the minds of the nations should be habituated to that course, and
      2998
      that they should see the efficacy of a peaceful solution in practice.
      We have had examples of standing firm before. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] Let me trace it out. After the War, when democratic Germany was incapable of paying the great sums provided for under the Treaty, France was very firm, and I am sure that responsible French statesmen now regret it. France marched into the Ruhr and smashed Germany's hope of recovery under the democratic régime.
      Mr. Silverman: And we alone protested against it.
      Mr. Beechman: Germany was not a member of the League of Nations and had no right of appeal to the League. Abyssinia, yes; democratic Germany, no. Once again, later, when the sands were running out, Germany wished to join with Austria, because Austria had proposed to join with Germany in a customs' union. What happened? The matter was referred to the League of Nations, and the League of Nations referred it to the Hague Tribunal to decide whether such action was in accordance with the Treaty. It was decided that it was not. Was there ever such a hopelessly inverted process? What ought to have been decided was: Is this right or wrong? If it is right and the Treaty prohibits it, the Treaty must be altered. For the first time, we are now getting to a point when people are willing to be told that peaceful solutions are possible. There has always been a major nation, France at one time and Germany at another, anxious and willing to resist change or to procure change by force. I believe that history will say that what determined the failure of the League of Nations was that the public opinion of the nations was not ready to ratify, and did not perfect, the revisioning clause of the Treaty.
      It is a fine thing that we have a Prime Minister who is leading us to understand, and by our example leading other nations to understand, that the reign of law does not merely mean that we should respect a static condition, crystallised at a certain point in history; we recognise that law must be changed as growth occurs and that growth and change can occur without violence. Another factor which has prevented us from coming to a right view of these matters is that we are in too

      2999
      close a proximity to great world and national movements. That factor is of enormous importance.
      I hear hon. Members talk of dictatorships as though these were all in the same category. I well know that dictatorships have features in common, and that the common feature which we all abominate is that they regard the individual as existing for the benefit of the State, but let us not forget that they have in common the feature that the dictator is the symbol of national pride. That is why when one attacks a dictator one so frequently finds that one has consolidated the nation itself. The great thing to remember about dictatorship is that it is in that sense representative of its country. It is conditioned by the geography, the history, the resources and the ambitions, and beyond all the fears, of the country in which that dictatorship has arisen. By that test, Mussolini's Italy is not in the same category as Germany. Italy is not a totalitarian State at all. It is no reflection on the potency of Mussolini, or, indeed, on his intelligence, which is no doubt very great, to suggest that if Mussolini were to disappear Italy would be once more in the hands of the monarchy. It is necessary to remember that the Italian people are very charming and very civilised, and that they dislike war. In this country we sometimes scoff at the Italians because they dislike war, but I commend them.
      Beyond all, let us remember Italy in its Mediterranean setting. I believe there is a great awakening going on right through the Mediterranean. We started it ourselves in 1860 or thereabouts, when we helped Garibaldi to set up Italy as a force in the Mediterranean. Are we beginning to regret it? Take the case of Turkey. A most remarkable awakening is taking place there. I sometimes hear hon. Gentlemen say that we must muster the democracies, but we must not forget that if we muster all the people who are opposed to force some of them will not be democracies at all but dictatorships, and very interesting dictatorships, which may have far greater consequences than such a country as Denmark which is a delightful and highly civilised country.
      Another example of awakening in the Mediterranean is that of Spain. I believe that there are Spaniards fighting on both sides in Spain, in spite of what I hear
      3000
      in this House. I believe that those Spaniards are fighting for precisely the same thing. Hon. Members may say that some of those Spaniards are deluded, but we must not forget that popular delusion is one of the ordinary concomitants of war. I believe that those Spaniards are fighting to make Spain great, to bring her out of the extremes of poverty and oppression by giving free play to the spirit of Spain. There has been a great awakening in Spain not only in politics and in sociological matters. The awakening has been going on in literature, in music and in art, but it now trembles in the balance, not in accordance with who will win in the present conflict, but it trembles in the balance, because, if this slaughter goes on, there will be no Spain left at all. I associate myself very strongly with what has been said on the other side, and, indeed, by the Prime Minister to-day on that subject. I feel that there is only one policy for this country in regard to Spain, and that is to take every possible step to end this slaughter as soon as possible. I hope that the House as a whole will be able to support that policy, not only to end the slaughter, but to make sure that when it is at an end there will be mercy and decency shown. Whatever may be the outcome, in the present situation victory is of far less consequence than mercy. And I beg all hon. Members opposite to support this policy of demonstrating that co-operation between nations can only be achieved now by showing the value and efficacy of peaceful solution. I ask hon. Members on the Opposition Liberal benches to support that policy; I ask them to follow their own leaders; I ask them to follow, for instance, Mr. J. A. Spender, whom I regard as one of the greatest exponents of Liberalism in relation to foreign affairs, when he wrote, on 24th May last:
      "Is it too much to hope that all parties will for the time being join in such a concentration and give up public recrimination which may place us at a disadvantage with the totalitarian States in which unity is imposed by an iron discipline?"
      I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite whether they cannot, at any rate in the sphere of foreign affairs, support the National Government, not merely because it is in accordance with strategical realities, not merely because the safety of the country depends on it, but because it is, as I believe it to be, in accordance with the fundaments of morality and with that

      3001
      Liberalism in which they sincerely and intensely profess to believe. I, therefore, ask them to support the Prime Minister, who, through all these distresses and torments, through every black and bafflling emergency, has had the courage to retain and practice a faith in humanity.
      7.48 p.m.
      Mr. Sorensen: I agree with many of the expressions of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Beechman), and appreciate his very sensitive approach to the problems with which we are all concerned. I am glad that he has approached this very difficult and intricate problem of foreign affairs in a rather different fashion from that adopted by some of his own friends. I would certainly recommend him in all sincerity to spend a week-end in the company of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). Possibly, as a result of the interesting time they would have together, we should find that the whole of the party which the hon. Member opposite supports would then approach more nearly to the spirit of the Labour party than has frequently been the case in the past. If the hon. Member does not mind my suggesting it, he rather strikes me as being the proverbial poacher turned gamekeeper. The sentiments to which he gave expression would have been admirable had they been expressed and put into operation say 15 years ago. They were precisely the principles that the party to which I belong was struggling to uphold when the party to which the hon. Member belongs was attacking them with all the vehemence at its command. That is not a matter of dispute; it is a matter of historic fact.
      Again and again, while I was listening to the hon. Member, I could not help feeling that he was living in a world of illusion, that he was addressing to us sentiments, ideas and exhortations which might most properly be addressed to Members of his own party. The sentiments which he expressed have been our sentiments for years. We agree with him, for instance, that the firmness expressed at the time of the Versailles Treaty, and again and again since that time towards democratic Germany, has been largely responsible for the situation which confronts us to-day. It is certainly interesting to find that our ideas of yesterday are now being supported by Members of the
      3002
      Conservative party. Et is frequently so. We have often upheld principles which 25 years later the laggards in other parties have gradually come to accept. I could not help feeling that the hon. Member would probably take rather a different view if it were a question of our Imperial possessions being challenged. It is all very well to speak as he spoke, no doubt quite sincerely, about the necessity of withholding firm action from a situation such as that in Spain, or China, or Czechoslovakia, but would he apply the same pacific principle if the possibility arose of, shall we say, the invasion of Tanganyika or an attack on the Falkland Islands? The hon. Member behind him says, "Of course not," and I agree that that is the real position of the party which the hon. Member supports.
      I admit that the whole House is united in its desire for the appeasement of the world, for a settlement of differences and the ensuring of peace. Only crooks and perverts really want war. There are some, possibly, even in this House, but the majority are not like that; whether Conservative, or National Liberal, free Liberal, Labour, Independent Labour Party or Communist, I am certain that they all want peace. Here I will be more charitable than the hon. Member opposite. He has on more than one occasion blurted out the insinuation, or made the deliberate statement, that my party wants war. That is utterly untrue. I will be more charitable; I do not believe that his party wants war; I repeat that nobody who is sane and civilised wants war.
      Mr. Beechman: I said that hon. Members opposite wanted peace.
      Mr. Sorensen: I was referring to the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Wise). That hon. Member knows very well to whom I was referring. Even though all Members of the House, unless they are crooks or perverts, want peace, that, surely, is only the beginning of the issue. The issue really is, what kind of peace do we want? There are some who want a peace of stagnation; there are some who want a peace of conquest; and there are those who want a peace of justice. I want something more even than the last; I want a peace of human co-operation. It is in that regard that hon. Members of this House differ from one another; in other words, we differ in our concept of peace. Therefore, I am entitled to ask

      3003
      whether the conception of peace embodied in the policy of the British Government and its supporters is not a peace of conquest with law subservient thereto—in other words, a British Imperialist peace. I am not denying that it is peace that they want, but it is a peace of conquest, and a peace of British conquest. In other words, they say, "Whatever else happens, let us see to it that our own domination, our own territories, our own interests, our own power, remain untouched. We want peace, but peace with Britain still dominant." I know that Members of the House, like the hon. Member for Smethwick, will say, "Why not?" They want the angel of peace to walk abroad with the British trident in her hand and a tame lion by her side.
      Mr. Wise: A very good system, too.
      Mr. Sorensen: I am glad to find that hon. Members opposite say that it is a very good system, too. It is precisely that concept which is largely responsible for the threat of war in the world to-day. I listened with very great interest to the Prime Minister
      to-day—
      Mr. Baxter: I think the hon. Member will agree with me that the world must have leadership, and, if he can suggest a better leadership than that of this country, we shall be glad to hear it.
      Mr. Sorensen: If the hon. Member will do me the honour of listening to me for a moment or two, he will hear my answer to the question he has put to me. The Prime Minister said this afternoon:
      "Though we seek peace, we are not prepared to sacrifice British honour and interests. We cannot stand by and see our interests sacrificed."
      That, I presume, embodies the standpoint of hon. Members opposite. If I may put it into a British colloquialism—I will not quote Latin, because in the House of Commons, where we speak English, I prefer to use English—the statement of the Prime Minister may be summed up as: "What we have we hold." That, I am sure, will find a warm response in the soul of every hon. Member who supports the present Government. The Prime Minister said, further:
      "Our interests in China have been of great importance for hundreds of years."
      All this blindly ignores the fact that the standard we set up for ourselves is precisely
      3004
      the standard by which other Powers also determine their policy. When we declare to the world that what we have we hold, we evoke the response from every other Power: "What we want we will get." If we maintain, as hon. Members opposite maintain, that the peace of the world must carry with it the status quo, the preservation of Britains Imperial monopoly and supremacy, we are literally asking the rest of the world to follow our example and challenge our supremacy. Why not? What is good for us must surely be good for other nations. If we rejoice in a mighty Empire with great possessions, supremacy and great economic advantages, and if these have brought to us, as they have, a higher standard of life than obtains almost anywhere else in the world, it is natural that other people, looking at us with envious or appreciative eyes, should say, "Very well, if that is Britain's enjoyment, we must have that enjoyment too, and the means which Britain has employed to secure that advantage we too will employ." Hon. Members know in their heart of hearts that that is so, and that is why they want to preserve the world as it is, and why it is that, when they are so anxious for peace, they want a peace that will keep things as they are. They fail to recognise, or fail to admit, that no durable or lasting peace in the world can be founded on that basis. We are, in fact, merely inviting other Powers to follow in the same footsteps that we have trodden when we say that our interests in China have been of great importance for hundreds of years. It is natural that Japan should retort, "Very well, we are going to start our hundreds of years of interests in China. You have had the advantages for hundreds of years past, while we were a slumbering feudal nation until So years ago; now we will begin."
      From an Imperialistic standpoint, how can we deny this? If we claim to have had for hundreds of years in China, India and elsewhere these economic and Imperial interests, by what logic shall we say that Japan shall not by the same means secure the same interests? If in Africa we declare that we are a great Imperial Power, with substantial economic and territorial advantages, by what logic can we say that Italy shall have no rights there? The same is true of Germany, and any other Power. As long as

      3005
      we say that our standards shall be determined by Imperialistic aims, we are inviting other nations to set up the same standards. They merely say to us "You are a great Imperial Power; it is our turn now. Prepare, because we are going to challenge you before many years pass." We have all engaged in this game of power politics. That is very largely the reason why the League of Nations has failed—or, at least, has been modified so far as its original purpose is concerned. We are playing a diabolical game of chess, with human lives as pawns.
      The Prime Minister said, "We desire the removal of the causes of possible conflict in the relationship of one country with another." Everyone agrees with those sentiments; but what are the causes of such possible conflicts? Does anyone imagine that by merely postponing the threat of crisis or emergency, merely lasting out the years by some subterfuge or diplomatic manoeuvre, we are removing the causes of war? They lie in the clash for supremacy. It is sheer hypocrisy to pretend that by merely postponing war we are averting it. As long as we merely worship at the shrine of power, other nations will do the same. As long as we are unprepared to sacrifice part of our material advantage for the sake of humanity as a whole, other nations will adopt the same standard as we have adopted, and tread the same path as we have trod, and in time we shall find ourselves in inevitable conflict with all nations trying savagely to grab power.
      We are all hypnotised by words. The finest words we use may contain sheer hypocrisy. Dr. Johnson said: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." He was a Conservative but I do not adopt his rather crude description, nor do I suggest that patriotism is necessarily the last refuge of a scoundrel; but there is not a single word— "patriotism," "art," "music," "religion" which
      has not been used at times for the grossest actions. We are poisoning the sacred names of "freedom," "democracy" and "patriotism," by allowing them to blind us to the fact that what is wrong with the world is the mad rivalry for Imperial and territorial power. Therefore, I believe this House should recognise that, putting aside all the discussions and debates that have taken place here
      3006
      as to whether the Government have done right or wrong in this or that particular respect, there is fundamentally only one hope, and that is by the emergence of this country and other countries out of the hypnotism which is on them to-day to a realisation of the need for sacrifices all round. Only that can secure an enduring peace. Until we shatter that hypnotic worship of power, fine words will only be used as a means to the end of securing the satisfaction of an elemental passion.
      I have always been a pacifist, and I am more convinced than ever that repudiation of all forms of war alone will secure a lasting peace and an understanding peace; but while that is my position, and while I strive to convert individuals to that viewpoint, I recognise that the great majority—99 per cent.—of our people are unprepared as yet to accept that point of view. That is not to say they are not pacific. There are elements of pacifism in the most jingoistic Members of this House. In the last resort we are all pacifists. We should still believe in the final triumph of truth and right even if we failed in war. It would remain an ultimate faith. Whilst I recognise that the great majority are not prepared to take this particular view, I submit that we can start in a small way, every one of us, by laying it down that if arms are to be used, and if efficient arms are to be used—and I grant the logic of that—at least we must see that these arms are used for an ideal and a principle—the ideal of international law. That surely is infinitely superior to the ideal of national superiority. The League of Nations has largely been betrayed by a Judas kiss of superficial friendship. Men have paid lip-service to it. They spoke of an international law, but when it came to the pinch it was quietly put on one side. Let us try to preserve some remnants of that international morality and international legality which are still within the structure of the League. If we do that, I feel that these dark days will be dispelled.
      But Britain must give a lead precisely because it has this Imperial advantage, because it has a higher standard of life, because it gained so much more out of the last War than other Powers, and precisely because it has missed so many golden opportunities. For those reasons it can give a great lead. Britain, by

      3007
      forswearing her Imperial supremacy for the benefit of humanity, can deliver a moral shock to the world. When I listen here to either side of the House, my friends or my political enemies, debating niceties of diplomatic strategy, I again and again realise that all this in the end will get us nowhere at all. The rivalries of people to-day are so intense. The divisions of ideology—to use a hackneyed word—are so deep that they have divided Europe in two. Whether some Members of this House may desire that final clash between the rival ideologies or not, it will in any case be the mass of decent human beings who will suffer in that conflict, and I ask, therefore, before we drift on and on to this vortex of destruction that there should be in this House on all sides Members who are prepared to make Great Britain a great Britain in a new sense of the word—not in terms of territorial advantage or of economic superiority, but in terms of moral and social leadership to the whole world.
      8. 11 p.m.
      Mr. Baxter: If the Prime Minister fails to make a success of his foreign policy it will not be for lack of sincerity or for lack of variety in the advice which has been tendered to him to-day. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party—
      Mr. Beechman: The Opposition Liberal party—
      Mr. Baxter: —the Liberal party in opposition—made, as usual, one of his charming and bellicose speeches. His conception of Great Britain is not at all the same as that of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. It is very similar, however, to that of Sir Joseph Porter, who, as hon. Members know, in Gilbert and Sullivan's "H.M.S. Pinafore" gave to the British sailor advice as to the manner in which he should carry himself. I am not sure of the words, but they are something like this:

      "His nose should pant and his lip should curl,

      His cheeks should flame and his brow should furl,

      His bosom should heave and his heart should glow,

      And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow.

      And this should he his customary attitude!"

      That is the conception of the right hon. Gentleman of what should be the customary
      3008
      attitude of this country. Then we had a very sincere, moving and utterly impractical speech from the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. What he asked this House to do is to legislate not for Great Britain, or even the British Empire, but for humanity at large. If at a given moment the whole of humanity could alter, then I think we could dispense even with this House of Commons. We could reach the millennium at one jump. Lacking that happy consummation I do not know why the hon. Gentleman is so certain that Great Britain, by giving up what she possesses, will bring peace.
      Mr. Sorensen: I did not say that at all. What I said was that Great Britain should make her own Imperial advantage subservient to international law.
      Mr. Baxter: The hon. Member taunted hon. Members on this side—I do not use the word "taunted" unfairly—with the contention that "what we have we hold." I regret very much that the party opposite should have always regarded the British Empire in its formation and development as somehow anti-social; actually it is one of the most far-reaching instruments for progress and peace that the world holds. No one can travel, as some of us have done, from one part of the Empire to the other without seeing the genius of this race for bringing civilisation to natives who would otherwise have been left in darkness. Coming, as I do, from the outer Empire, I should have thought hon. Members on the other side would have led the House in support of such an ideal.
      Now let me come to Germany. I do not want to subject the House to the usual experience—a man who has been on a Cook's tour writing a book about it while he stands on his feet; but I must confess that at Whitsun I went to Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Germany and Austria during a very critical time, and I would like to make one or two observations to the House, with an apology that I do not claim to be an expert on the subject.
      This much I will say. You cannot travel to-day through Central Europe without becoming conscious of a deeply sinister shadow across that Continent, and that shadow is Germany. We on this side do not share the fierce hostility of the Opposition to all forms of totalitarian government, even though we dislike it, but to deny the sinister influence of

      3009
      Germany to-day in Europe would be to deny the truth. She is pursuing a double policy of economic and political penetration, which is tyrannical in conception and dangerous in the carrying out. Czechoslovakia is a problem which even Lord Runciman, who has looked upon problems from two angles before, will have some trouble in adjusting. It has been said that the great wars of the world have not been between right and wrong, but between the right and the partially right. That is the real crux and tragedy of the Czechoslovakian problem. There is the right against the partially right, and it is for that reason a fierce and prolonged struggle.
      I went down to Reichenberg in the Sudeten country on the Saturday before the last Election. The whole place was very excited, festooned with flags and pictures of Henlein. On the Saturday night I had supper about midnight with the Nazi leaders. They were very nice; they gave me all the information they could and naturally put their own case very strongly. Suddenly a message came that the Czech police had shot some of the Sudetens, and there was great excitements. At this, I asked if I could be allowed to go with them and see the atrocities which they were describing. They thought it would be better for me not to see them, but I said I could stand the sight and would very much like to have first-hand information possibly to place before the House of Commons, or some of the newspapers, which occasionally publish what I write. As I pressed them they consented, and eventually we started off at about 1 o'clock in the morning in three motor cars to track down the atrocities which were inflaming German opinion to such a pitch. From one village to another we followed rumours. We were told that there had been some shooting in the next village, but when we got there the shooting had taken place in the village we had just left.
      Our Nazi leaders were good fellows, but they were persistent, and eventually we turned on to a deserted road, and there we found an atrocity. A window had been broken by a small stone, and I regret to say that a rotten egg had also been thrown. We surveyed the scene as if we had come to a shrine. This was the best that they could produce, but there was a German photographer with us. I do not
      3010
      know where he came from, but he turned up in the car, and being a newspaper man he thought quickly. He handed to three or four rather bewildered villagers sticks which were torn from a fence, and he photographed these gentleman standing in front of a cottage which did not belong to them, with their sticks upraised, guarding it against the terrible Czechs. These photographs did very well in the German Press; I saw many copies afterwards. That was one side of the case. The atrocities, and the stories of atrocities published in the German Press were not true. They were fabrications, I would say to the extent of 90, or nearly 100 per cent. Yet when we crossed the border into Germany and bought the German newspapers we read that, in spite of the most terrible atrocities, the election had taken place in Reichenberg, and the Germans had voted for the Nazi classes. I think that one of the most regrettable features in all this most unfortunate situation is the falsifying to the public of facts which may be politically useful, but which are lies, a tendency which is reducing the intellectual level of the German people to that of adolescents.
      That is the most sinister thing, but no matter how one looks at this problem, and although I have described with absolute accuracy the atrocities which did not take place, we must make no mistake about it, the plight of the Sudetens is deplorable and harrowing. There is no question at all that their factories are being, and have been, abandoned. The Czech Government, for reasons which may be justified, will not give orders for munitions to the Sudeten factories. This is what they say in defence. and it is a very strong defence—"We cannot trust them with secrets." No Sudeten German can have a licence to fly an aeroplane of any sort, and again the Czech Government reply, "We are a small country and we cannot afford to have these men in the air." Of all the problems, this is the nearest thing to an insoluble problem I have ever discovered. How are we going to solve it?
      Is it to say, as many Members of this House will advise, and especially my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), that you must form an alliance of nations, an economic alliance semi-military, spiritual, and on the grounds of freedom, and hold Germany at bay and say, "One move against

      3011
      Czechoslovakia and we march?" I do not think that that is a very sound policy, because it would drive Germany, already cornered and frustrated in many ways, into a corner. In my opinion Germany is much more likely to fight a war of desperation than a war of conquest. I say, beware a desperate Germany. That is one policy which we could adopt.
      Mr. Vyvyan Adams: Does my hon. Friend really think that the present German Government would deliberately ride for a certain fall? Does he think they would embark on a war when they knew they would be defeated?
      Mr. Baxter: That is a question which is very often asked, and I would answer my hon. Friend in this way. When a totalitarian Government sees its administration coming to an end, we must remember that there is no alternative party, no alternative government, and that if these men fall from office they are doomed men, they are dead men. The enemies they have created would shoot them. Therefore, if you say to a group of 10, 12 or 500 men who are running a nation like Germany on a totalitarian basis: "Which will you do if your regime is coming to an end; you will go to war or will you throw up the reins of government and go home to possible assassination?" I think war would be the more likely thing that they would decide upon.
      We have three policies or attitudes that we can take towards Germany. One is isolation, as propounded by Lord Beaverbrook and the "Daily Express." That is an attractive policy. It has all the attractions and all the difficulties that were summed up by Mr. Goldwyn, of Hollywood, when, after listening to a conference of his directors, he said: "Well, boys, include me out." It is unfortunately true that for this country to include itself out of Europe is charming, but rather more difficult than the laws of geography will permit. Therefore, while I pay to Lord Beaverbrook that greatest respect for his opinions which he deserves, and while I would not decry his great services to the community, at the same time I am sorry that I cannot follow him into that lovely garden, or ocean, or desert of isolation, desirable as it is.
      The second alternative is that put forward by the right hon. Member for
      3012
      Epping, which is to bring together all the democratic forces into what would be a military alliance, although he does not choose to call it that. There is a third alternative, which reminds me of Oscar Wilde's words:
      "So cure the soul by means of the senses."
      I believe that we have to cure Germany before we can cure the European problem. That is a big order, but I think we are very foolish in this House sometimes, those of us who refuse to believe that there is any good in National Socialism or that there is no unselfishness in men like Hitler and Goering. We are very unwise in thinking that. You cannot come in touch with German National Socialism without realising that Herr Hitler has given to his young men a faith, a vision, unfortunate as it is, and limited as it is in understanding, which we ourselves often fail to give to our own people.
      To say that Hitler is merely a crook, that he is only a gangster, is absurd. In saying that, you are dismissing a man whose capacity, however misdirected, certainly takes him out of that class altogether. The Opposition to-day are asking what Captain Wiedemann said when he saw Lord Halifax. I have a feeling that I know. I think he said: "My Government is anxious to improve the relations between our two countries. My Government assures you that it desires a peaceful Czechoslovakian settlement." I believe those two things were the foundation of the conversation. I contend that Germany profoundly desires a peaceful settlement of the Czechoslovakian questioa. You may take it that she desires it on the crudest and lowest standpoint, because she is not ready for war. Put it that way if you like. There is, however, another reason which is apt to be more sound. In the Sudeten district there is a stricken German community of 3,500,000 people. They are living from hand to mouth. Do you think that Hitler's economic situation is such that at one swallow he can take into his economic system 3,500,000 more industrialists? I agree that Hitler wants political domination, that he may ask for a plebiscite and he may do the wrong thing again, but Germany does not want the people; she only wants political control. Therefore, I do not think we are risking very much

      3013
      in believing that Germany desires a peaceful settlement of this problem.
      I do not speak here very often, and the shorter I speak perhaps the better it is for the House, but having had an experience which is sometimes unusual in journalism in that I have seen that which I am writing and talking about, I want to go on for another minute or two.
      Mr. Kirkwood: The hon. Member spoke about 3,500,000 industrialists in Czechoslovakia. Does he mean to say that there are 3,500,000 unemployed industrialists in Czechoslovakia?
      Mr. Baxter: I was not speaking of the whole of Czechoslovakia. I was referring, broadly speaking, to the population statistics of the Sudeten countries. The figure given is 3,500,000 Germans, which would include children and women. As a community they live on factories which are no longer active. One of the saddest sights to be seen in the whole of unhappy Central Europe is to drive from Richenberg 20 or 3o miles to the frontier and to see factories which in the prosperous Austro-Hungarian days were all working and progressing. You can see where the proprietors with Germanic pride in the development of their industries had added a little decoration to this wall and a little garden there; but now the factories are empty, and they are being broken up for their value in bricks. One wonders how the district lives at all. I grant that I may have been guided to the worst part of the district, but the mere fact that a decimated area shows perhaps the worst, does not alter the fact that the situation is very serious indeed.
      I do not believe that Herr Hitler is an impulsive man. On the contrary, I think he has shown every sign of being a moat patient and thoughtful man. He acts swiftly only when he has added up every chance of action and reaction. This sending of Captain Wiedemann to London to see Lord Halifax I would not dismiss for a moment as an impetuous act on his part. Hitler looks out on the world to-day and he is wise enough, for all his mysticism and emotional qualities, to say, "We have lost the battle. We have created every enemy that is possible. We have failed to make friends. I think the time has gone when Germany must know that she looks out on the enmity of the Catholic Church, on the enmity of the
      3014
      trade unions, on an Anglo-French understanding which she turned into an alliance overnight by her march into Austria, of an outraged Jewry and a resentful America. She has changed Austria from almost a vassal State into a sulky, brooding Germanic province. Wherever Germany looks she must realise that she has lost the game of diplomacy, and not for the first time. And so, turning to see how she can change the course of things, we come back to one of the most persistent and consistent things in the character of Herr Hitler, and that is a deep and resolute respect for the people of this country.
      I feel that if we could at this moment go towards Germany—if you like with our pistols in our pockets prepared for eventualities—let in some fresh air, bring the Germans into contact with this country, we could show to him and his people a better way of reopening frontiers than by conquest and guns. I refuse to believe that the Germans are entirely different from ourselves. I almost think it would be ironically effective if we changed Shylock's lines and say:
      "Hath not a German eyes? Hath not a German hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? … warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as an Englishman is?"
      It is time we began to orientate our minds towards that point of view. I apologise for keeping the House so long, but I should like to recapitulate the three alternatives about which I have been speaking. I do not think we can afford to go on waiting upon eventualities. We must choose between one of these three policies—Isolation. Or blocking Germany secretly or openly wherever she tries to expand; a process which is now going on in the Danubian and Balkan countries. We must do that or adopt the third policy, which is to treat the Germans as being men like ourselves, with the same ambitions, the same sense of destiny as ourselves. By that I do not mean for a minute that we can afford to let down any of the safeguards; it must be a gradual approach. Bernard Shaw says in one of his plays that the difference between a flower girl and a duchess is the way you treat her. The difference between Germany as she is to-day and Germany as she might become may be the way we treat her now, and I would ask hon. Members opposite to consider

      3015
      whether, instead of adopting as they do an attitude of persistent and never-ending hostility to the Germany of to-day, they should rather run the risk, the risk which the Prime Minister is taking with his own reputation, so that we may in this fateful month of August, 1938, see a great thing happening in the world this year.
      8.39 p.m.
      Miss Rathbone: We have listened to an extremely interesting speech from the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter). I visited Czechoslovakia about a year ago and I agree with very much that the hon. Member said about the situation. I will not stop to discuss that part of his speech, but I should like to point out one thing. He is pointing us along a dangerous road. He says that we should treat the Germans as human beings like ourselves. I agree. He said, why not open the frontiers? I agree. But does he really believe that Herr Hitler with his ambitions is going to be satisfied with merely economic concessions, and if he wants more room, at whose expense is it to be? Wherever one looks, at the former German colonies, at Czechoslovakia, at Austria, the places where Germany will want to expand, it is all very well for us to say, "Let her expand," but at whose expense? Should we not see the same detestable methods which have been practised against the Jews and Liberals in Austria? There was no bloodshed, but the methods in their sadist cruelty have hardly been paralleled in the history of the world. Is not that the difficulty? I think we should sacrifice a very great deal, bits of our own Empire, take risks to avoid a conflict with Germany, but before we plan what we are going to give away to Herr Hitler we must consider at whose expense it is to be.
      I think we must all be thankful about the Prime Minister's reference to the lightening of the dark clouds. At the same time we are all going away with very anxious minds, and I want to deal with a few points about which we are specially anxious. While we are away the proposals as to the removal of volunteers from Spain are likely to be implemented. There are one or two reasons which make one look at the proposals with very doubtful eyes. This is part of the plan to conciliate Mussolini at almost any cost, and so make a conclusion of the Anglo-Italian
      3016
      Agreement possible, but we cannot help seeing that in almost every way the non-intervention scheme is being tightened up by restrictions against Republican Spain, while allowing constant intervention on the rebel side. That particular proposal has itself provided several large gaps through which assistance can pass to the insurgents from Italy and Germany. There are no observers in aerodromes, although we know that the most formidable form of foreign intervention on General Franco's side has been the coming of aeroplanes by air. We had a reply from the Under-Secretary of State only yesterday about this matter. He said that the suggestion of observers being placed in aerodromes had been turned down by the Non-Intervention Committee. Why? Is it because it is impracticable? If it is possible to have observers in the ports of Spain why is it impossible to get observers at the aerodromes? And why are there to be observers in some ports of Spain and not in all? Is not the reason the same in both cases, that the Italians did not wish it?
      The Prime Minister asked us to believe that the Italians have co-operated in the non-intervention scheme. Of course they have, because co-operation has enabled them to get their own way and continually to weaken the proposals to their own advantage. In spite of the weak points in the proposals I think they might have brought a limited advantage if they were going to find a way for getting rid of foreign volunteers. It has not been sufficiently noticed how the Prime Minister has really sabotaged, with the aid of his French allies, the chances of the scheme of his own Government by removing from General Franco almost all inducements genuinely to co-operate in the withdrawal of volunteers. Obviously that withdrawal cannot take place unless General Franco co-operates, but the Prime Minister has given him long beforehand the chief advantages which he stood to gain by cooperating. One of those advantages was the closing of the French frontier, which ought to have synchronised with the commencement of the withdrawal of volunteers, but which has taken place two months, at any rate, before the withdrawal can possibly begin. That frontier has already been closed for over a month. I do not intend to discuss now the vexed question of who was responsible for its being closed—Paris has its own opinion

      3017
      about that—but I suggest that neither Government seems to be very proud of the effect. The closing of that frontier has greatly lessened the chances of success of the proposals.
      The other advantage which has already been given as a free gift to General Franco is the cutting off from the Republican side of supplies derived from neutral shipping, as a result of the Prime Minister's refusal to protect British shipping. The other main motive which General Franco had for co-operating in the withdrawal of volunteers, which would injure him far more than it would the other side, was the gaining of the recognition of belligerent rights, but he scarcely needs belligerent rights now, because the Government have done his work for him and given him more than he could have got by a blockade, which he has not the naval power to enforce, by bullying and threatening those shipowners who, in the exercise of their lawful business of carrying food and fuel to a half-starved people, and by refusing to protect them while they were carrying on that lawful business. For those seasons, I feel that the chances of success of the proposals have been very greatly decreased. The Prime Minister can scarcely conceal his anger that the Spanish Republic, like King Charles, has been so unconscionably long a' dying, and consequently he vents that anger on his own countrymen who, in a legitimate way, have been helping the Spanish Republic to survive.
      The question of China was admirably dealt with by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair), and I will only say how glad I was that he called attention to the disastrous answer given in the House the other day by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor explained that the Government had decided, after carefully going into the possibilities, to refuse any loan to China, and he actually gave as a reason for differentiating in that matter between China and Turkey the fact that China is engaged in hostilities, thus making the very fact of China being the victim of an aggression a reason for withholding that form of financial assistance which, under the Covenant of the League of Nations, ought specially to be given to the victim of an aggression. Could the Chancellor
      3018
      have told Japan more plainly that we were too afraid of her to do what is our duty as a Member of the League?
      Again, with regard to Abyssinia, I was glad that the right hon. Baronet drew attention to what is happening in Somaliland. I think we shall, in future, rue the penetration of Somaliland by the Italians which is now going on. Large numbers of Italians are allowed to go into the country to help to develop roads, and they have been given the privilege of carrying food and other things needed for the use of their troops across those roads. I think we shall find that in the long run we shall pay for that. I am told that the British Somalis are among the best fighters in Africa; and yet we are, as far as possible, making it practicable for them, if we should ever come into conflict with Italy, to fight on the Italian side and not on our own. One other matter which I want to mention in connection with Abyssinia is the treatment of our distinguished guest, the Emperor of Ethiopia. Everybody must admit that he is a man whom we have ruined. The British Government, having persuaded him to rely on our protection and to take our advice, then withdrew that protection, because it became inconvenient. We have reduced him to exile and poverty. Whether that was inevitable or not, I do not intend to discuss, but no one can deny the degree of our responsibility. At a time when we are prepared to barter away his remaining rights over his country and his country's independence as part of our deal with Italy, we are allowing him to be reduced to such straits that a public appeal for his assistance has to be made. That seems to me to be deplorable, and I wish that the Government would find some way of providing reasonable maintenance of the Emperor.
      The Government have permitted these various acts of weakness because of fear of the aggressor countries—Japan, Germany and Italy—and a desire to conciliate them, or, to put it more crudely, to buy them off by encouraging them to vent themselves on weak nations, in the hope that, having become sated, they will leave us and our possessions alone. What we fail to see and what is the cause for the deep anxiety which gnaws at our hearts, is any sign that this policy, ignoble at best, is even succeeding. True, it has

      3019
      kept us out of war so far, and the Government are fighting by-elections on that claim; but can the country be kept permanently out of war by those means, and if so, at what cost? One country after another which might have been our ally in a system of collective security is subjected either by force or by diplomatic pressure, and the balance of power in Europe is steadily being shifted to our disadvantage and to the disadvantage of all the other surviving democratic powers. We should gain something if there were any signs of real appeasement, but are there any signs of that? After every fresh concession, the aggressive powers become more openly arrogant and insolent. That is particularly the case with Signor Mussolini, whom the Prime Minister has been so sedulously wooing, and who becomes more openly offensive every day.
      The Prime Minister's only reward for tamely allowing British ships to be sunk without anything more than a, verbal protest was Signor Gayda's taunt in the official organ of Rome that if a single Italian ship was sunk, the Italian people would reply not with verbal protests, but with guns. The premature closing of the French frontier, again obviously a gesture on the part of the French Government, with or without our encouragement, solely to please the Italians, met with the Duce's furious outburst against the great demo-plutocracies, with their ridiculous and nasty faces, which the Italian people would always remember in peace or in war. So far, that is what we have got by cringing to Signor Mussolini. Obviously he and Herr Hitler, although Herr Hitler is more discreet and less outspoken, have merely been confirmed in their belief that the British nation is decadent and that the spoils of its Empire will shortly be ready to be divided up between them.
      I sometimes wonder whether they are wrong in that assumption. I sometimes wonder whether the Government's policy, if continued on its present lines, will not lead to our sinking down step by step without fighting into the position of a second-rate Power. For every concession that is demanded from us, the question will be put, "Is this worth the risk of war?" and the answer will be "No." At some time, perhaps, the Government will be willing for this country to fight
      3020
      for some cause, and then perhaps they will find that the nation will not fight. So there will be no fighting. We shall get into a position similar to that of Denmark or Sweden, but with the difference that we have a far more congested population and are far more dependent on foreign trade, and that those countries retain their liberty and comparative prosperity because they have behind them the support of the great democracies. When freedom has been submerged all over Europe, will our freedom survive; or alternatively, at some point in that intolerable descent into the valley of humiliation, will the point be reached at which we shall fight, but—what is only too likely—fight alone, or with insufficient allies, because, by reason of the selfishness of our present policy, we have been left practically alone.
      While the taunt is constantly flung against us that we want war, I think there is no Member of this House who wants war. I doubt whether there is any person in the country who wants war. We all passionately want peace, and the only question which divides us is how to secure it. I cannot believe that in the long run we shall secure peace by continually running away and by sacrificing not only our own prestige and honour, but the lives and liberties of the peoples of smaller nations. I cannot help believing that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) is right and that his view is the view held by many hon. Members, namely, that it is not too late to rally the peace-loving nations within the League.
      It may be too late. The rot may have gone too far. I only throw out this suggestion. Has there ever been in the last two years, a realistic approach to the countries of the League, one by one, to ask each what it was prepared to do, to say to each country, "You want your security guaranteed; what are you prepared to guarantee for the security of other nations?" The kind of League before my mental eyes is not a League which resembles a great church with a preacher in the pulpit laying down maxims of conduct, which everybody accepts but nobodys obeys. It is something more like a mutual insurance society where different bargains are made with different nations, and each nation guarantees so much, according to what they are going to get out of it. That is a practical, realistic

      3021
      League. We are told that such a League is impossible and we might agree, if we had any reason to think that it had ever been attempted. But we have never had an opportunity of knowing whether it has been attempted, and we have no reason to believe that any attempt has been made by this Government at recreating the League on those lines. Many of us believe that the real reason why no such attempt has been made is not because the Government think it impossible, but because they know that in order to work out the sum, the co-operation of Russia is essential and they are determined not to co-operate with Russia. I believe that is the complex which lies beneath the belief that collective security is dead. One tremendous fear which possesses us is that during the Parliamentary Recess, one pass after another may be sold, and that we shall come back to find that the whole European position has deteriorated. The only safe path is a return to the ideal of collective security.
      8.59 P.m.
      Mr. Wise: I shall endeavour to be as brief as I can, and I wish in the first place to offer my congratulations to the Opposition Liberals for having returned to the Chamber. I noticed with considerable amusement that for long periods during this Debate, which they themselves initiated, their benches were untenanted.
      Mr. E. J. Williams: So were your's last night.
      Mr. Wise: We did not initiate last night's Debate.
      Mr. Williams: No, it was a Debate which concerned the miners.
      Mr. Wise: I think that the Opposition Liberal party have done a certain amount of good service in commencing a Debate of this kind, but I do not think that the case which they put up was particularly good. It seemed to be based upon many of the misconceptions which they have promulgated in the past, and which have just been reiterated by the hon. Member for the English Universities (Miss Ratlabone). It is true that nobody on this side of the Committee has yet thrown across the Floor the taunt that hon. Members opposite are anxious for war. I do not believe that anybody on this side thinks that they are anxious for war. We are prepared to credit them with as much desire for peace as we have. But I think
      3022
      we can say with some justice that the policy which they advocate, whether they like it or not, is almost certain to produce war.
      In my view they fail entirely to recognise the true object of foreign policy. They fail to realise that foreign policy is one of our instruments of defence, and that the Foreign Office should be regarded as a Defence Ministry, just as much as the War Office, the Admiralty or the Air Ministry. If foreign policy results in the danger of war or in war itself, then that policy has failed. Sometimes it is necessary to insure against possible failure by searching for allies in case war should break out, but obviously to a nation in the position of Great Britain, the first object of foreign policy should be to see that war does not break out, and I cannot see how any of the things advocated by the Opposition could possibly result in anything except ultimate disaster.
      Let us take first the position in the Far East and ask ourselves what the Opposition would have us do there. Not so long ago they were more belligerent than they are to-day. They were demanding far stronger action, and I was pleasantly surprised when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) came down to this House to-day, and instead of drawing the bright sword with which to defend China, contented himself with producing the moneylenders' scales, and demanding that we should lend money to the Chinese Government. We have heard that same demand for a loan, as our great contribution towards the defence of China from more than one speaker. They are, of course, deceiving themselves, either deliberately or unintentionally, when they talk of a loan. What they mean, obviously is a subsidy and I think it would be much more honest if they said so. A loan to China in its present state is not the sort of loan which would be undertaken by normal finance. I have only to ask hon Members opposite, would they subscribe their personal fortunes to such a loan, or do they expect the Government to do it out of the taxpayers' money? If they are prepared to subscribe their own personal fortunes, there is nothing to prevent them from lending their personal fortunes to the Chinese Government now.
      What would they have us do in Spain? The official Opposition is frankly interventionist

      3023
      ventionist [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I believe they have always said so, but I think that recently their party managers have told them that their attitude on Spain and their opposition to British rearmament have proved electorally unpopular, and they are now hastily endeavouring to swallow some of the unfortunate past utterances of their leaders. I do not want to waste the time of the House by reminding the Opposition of the proud boast of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) as to the extent of their intervention in Spain. They will remember that the right hon. Gentleman's statement was quoted by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was to the effect that they had done much more to help the Spanish Government than they dared say in public. They are frankly interventionist, but the Members of the Opposition Liberal party are, I think, reasonably non-interventionist as regards the Spanish quarrel. They have some idea that a victory of the Barcelona Government would be more favourable to British interests than a victory of General Franco. They may have very good grounds for thinking that, although I confess that I cannot see that it matters very much to us which party wins this Civil War. The interests of Spain have always been linked with those of this country. I am not concealing my own personal predilection of the way in which I should like the Civil War to end, but I am talking of the attitude of Spain to this country when it is over. As long as Britain remains one of the largest potential customers of Spain, so long Spain will be friendly to Britain, and I cannot see that our present rigid neutrality can possibly do us any harm. I do not believe that inclining to one Government or the other, or straining all the laws for the protection of ships on the high seas in order to supply materials of various kinds to the Barcelona Government, will help us ultimately to conciliate whatever Government is eventually victorious in Spain.
      We have had a considerable demand that we should protect British shipping in Spanish waters, but I believe that that demand is based on a misconception of what the aeroplane in war in fact is. I believe we should look upon it as a form of long-range bombardment arid that we
      3024
      should say to ourselves, "What would happen if Barcelona were a besieged city within the range of artillery, and British ships were in the harbour when that bombardment was going on and were hit by the shells which were fired at Barcelona?" I do not believe that in law we should have any complaint whatever in such a case. Obviously there is no precedent in international law for the use of the aeroplane as a means of long-range bombardment, but, looked at from that point of view, I think there is a very strong case for the Government's attitude, that while we can afford every protection on the high seas, and do afford it, ships that enter ports in a war zone enter them at their own risk.
      In the case of Czechoslovakia, again, there has been a demand for a more vigorous attitude and for less consideration for the Sudeten Germans—a curious demand particularly by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), who was urging, as far as I could see, that we should stiffen the resistance of the Czech Government to the demand for autonomy from those Germans who live in Czechoslovakia. I thought at the time how horrified he would have been, and indeed, how horrified he was, when the same sort of attitude was urged on the British Government in the case of the Irish, a people of another race—
      Mr. Montague: And another country.
      Mr. Wise: —just as the Sudetens are of another race, demanding autonomy just as the Sudetens are demanding autonomy. I would finally remind hon. Members opposite that they can overdo this business of standing up to the dictators. Nobody is asking this country to be meek, but I will finish with one quotation from an ancient poet, Ennius.
      Mr. Gallacher: He is as dead as you are.
      Mr. Wise: He referred to the Romans of his day and they were just as irresponsible as the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), and he was talking of their more intelligent predecessors:
      "Non cauponantes bellum sed belligerentes."
      "Not the hawkers of war, but those who train themselves to fight," and I commend

      3025
      that very much to all those hon. Members opposite of military age who have not yet trained themselves to fight.
      9.10 p.m.
      Mr. Mander: I want first to reply to some remarks made in the course of his speech by the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley), when he made something of an attack on the League of Nations Union and expressed the view that it was desirable that it should be made a party body by the retirement of the Conservative party. I very much hope that that will not be the case, and that it will long continue to be representative of all the parties in the State. My own experience for a number of years as a member of the Executive, on which we have had distinguished representatives of all parties, is that we have gone out of our way to try and accommodate our opinions to those of one another and to arrive at unanimity wherever possible, and I think we have been largely successful in attaining that result. It would be most deplorable if a body of which the Prime Minister thinks it is right to be President at the present time were to be handed over to the ordinary party fight. The League of Nations Union stands for certain ideals which are not the preserves of any party or Government. Its object is to educate public opinion and to try and persuade Governments and Members of Parliament to adopt its policy, and in pursuance of that object it is bound at times to come into conflict with Governments and at other times to support Governments, and you cannot expect any other course of action.
      The hon. Member made some reference to the recent resignation of the secretary of the union, and I should like to say, quite clearly and unequivocally, as one knowing all the facts—and other hon. Members of the House on the other side who are members of the committee will confirm what I say—that whatever the reasons were, they were internal, and they were in no way whatever political. The chairman of the executive, Lord Lytton, said so on the occasion of the resignation. The difference between members of the union is that some of them regard the League of Nations policy as one for immediate application, here and now, in the year 1938, and others equally sincerely think it is likely to come into operation a very long time off. We have to try and accommodate
      3026
      ourselves to the two views, but we shall have to return to that policy, and personally I shall always do all that I can to promote harmony among members of all parties on that body, and I hope it will always remain representative of everybody in the State who is interested in foreign affairs.
      This has been an unusually calm Debate for one on foreign affairs. The Prime Minister said that the atmosphere seemed to him rather lighter, but I can detect a good deal of thunder in the air. After all, we have two international wars going on at the present time unchecked, in which great countries are taking part and large numbers of men, women, and children are being slaughtered in cold blood every day, and one cannot reach a state of much satisfaction or feel that the atmosphere is very much lighter while that sort of thing is going on, because we all have a responsibility. It is no good thinking that these things are happening in other parts of the world. We are bound by treaty to do what we can, and we are doing very little, to bring these wars to an end. There is another war that is smouldering at the present time in Czechoslovakia, and I propose to say something about that in a moment.
      I will venture to criticise, as I have done before, the policy which is being pursued by the Government and by the Prime Minister in particular, but I should like to say that I pay the warmest tribute to the sincerity of the Prime Minister and to his single-minded devotion to the cause of peace. I am sure he has no other object, and while I may think him wholly wrong in the way in which he goes about it, I have no doubt whatever that there is no man in the country who is more anxious to attain it. It is a policy that is very largely a personal one. He is Foreign Secretary and no one else in the Government counts. He dominates it and controls it from his own Department. It seems to me rather curious that the chief diplomatic adviser of the Government is not consulted more often. I wonder what is the position at the present time. Perhaps my hon. Friend could tell us what Sir Robert Vansittart is? Is he still the chief diplomatic adviser of the Government, and, if so, when did the Prime Minister last consult him? It would be very interesting to have that

      3027
      if, indeed, the record has been kept of so remote a period. It is fair to say that the Prime Minister's personal policy envisages a Four-Power Pact, and, that being so, it will be difficult for him to respond to the appeals that are made to him from time to time to line up with the democracies, such as the United States and the appeals that come from President Roosevelt. He cannot do that because it is inconsistent with his well-meant efforts to come to friendly arrangements with the two great dictator Powers.
      I want to pass for a moment to China and make reference to the question of the proposed loan. It is made clear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was inaccurate in the version he gave in reply to a supplementary question the other day, when he said the reason we did not give the loan was because they were at war. I am sure that he gave it on the spur of the moment without thinking, because it is an absolutely indefensible reason for not giving a loan in view of the past history of what has happened in the Far East and of our commitments under the Covenant of the League and other Treaties. The reason seems to have been a lack of security. Why is there so little security? Have we not some responsibility for it? I should have thought that if we looked a little beyond the pounds, shillings and pence we could have found that loan to China. From a psychological point of view and, even, in the long run, from the financial point of view, it would have paid us back many times over. I hope the Government will not permanently rule that out and will see whether they can do that small thing at any rate to help the much wronged China. There is a small point I would like to ask the Under-Secretary to deal with in regard to the protection of shipping in China and in Spain. We are told that in Spain British shipping in any case cannot be protected inside the three-mile limit and in port because, apart from anything else, it is physically impossible. How is it that in the Far East, in the Treaty ports in China, we are told, as my hon. Friend told me the other day, that naval protection is given to British merchant vessels in port and inside the three-mile limit. If it is found to be a practical proposition to do it in the Far East, how is it found impossible to carry
      3028
      it out in Spain? Is the reason because the Government do not want to do it in the one case? It looks very much like that.
      In regard to Spain generally, I find great difficulty in speaking with patience about the hypocritical sham of non-intervention that has been going on for so long. It is a case of the application of sanctions against the victim of aggression itself. It is quite clear, I should have thought, that if Franco wins, which the Prime Minister must desire because of his Anglo-Italian Treaty, it will involve in effect a major military defeat for Great Britain and France because of the effect it will have on the Pyrenean frontier. I hope that due consideration has been given in the Defence department to the remarkable article that was published in the "News Chronicle," the other day by a high German general staff officer, General Von Reichenau. He dealt frankly with the situation that had been created on both sides of the Mediterranean, and said that the British and French position was impossible and that in any trouble with Portugal she would be forced willy-nilly into the arms of Germany. I find it difficult to see much prospect of success for the Prime Minister's Treaty, but I think he has to-day given us rather more information than ever before about what he means by a settlement. He has made that pretty clear, and we have that much satisfaction, at any rate, and it looks as if the conditions that he has laid down are not in the least likely to be realised before we meet again. I draw that consolation from it, at any rate.
      It would seem to be right to do two things immediately. One is to open the French frontier, which we were told was closed because the French Government wanted to do it and for no other reason. The British Government expressed no views—they were not interested. The French Government suddenly thought of it; they thought it would be a good idea to close the frontier. If that is so they are free to open it again. The other thing is to restore the right of the Spanish Government to purchase arms. Would the Under-Secretary in reply be good enough to say what happened about the British observers who were being sent out to Spain to be available to go to the site of any towns that were bombed to investigate and report? Have they gone,

      3029
      or are they going, and have the consents of the parties been received? What is the position?
      I propose to turn to the most serious international question of the moment, as I see it, that of Czechoslovakia. In order to get the background of this I am afraid that I must return once more to a subject which I am afraid the Prime Minister will not like, but I realy feel obliged to do it. I refer to the famous article which most people now think expresses in some ways the views of the Prime Minister, and which he himself has not denied. I think that that is a fair statement of the case. The quotation I propose to make is in regard to Czechoslovakia. This is the impression made on the mind of a skilled American journalist with regard to Czechoslovakia after hearing a certain very high authority:
      "These British think there is little danger of immediate war in Europe. To the query: 'Will France and Russia fight for the Czechs?' they answer: 'How can they fight?' France is separated by the width of Germany and cannot march troops into Czechoslovakia. Russia is separated by Poland and Rumania. Besides the Soviet have shot their best generals. Russia will be formidable in defending its own territory—it always has been in that respect—but it cannot be counted upon to move troops into Czechoslovakia any more than France can. Any suggestion that Russia might fly 1,000 bombers to Czechoslovakia and give Hitler reason for fear his beloved Germany might be bombed is ruled out with the comment that Czechoslovakia lacks the necessary equipment and ground facilities for such an additional air force and that the Russian planes might themselves be bombed to bits before they could take off from Czech territory. Nothing seems clearer than that the British do not expect to fight for Czechoslovakia, and do not anticipate that France and Russia will either. That being so, then the Czechs must accede to the German demands, if reasonabe."
      I read that as showing the mentality behind the direction of foreign policy. It is astounding to think that anyone could hold that view and yet within ro days from that date all these things that were said to be impossible were going to take place. Russia, France and Great Britain were all prepared to stand by the side of Czechoslovakia and take whatever military and air action might be necessary. It seems to me an extraordinary misreading of foreign affairs to put forward a suggestion of that kind.
      "At this writing the British are not sure as to the exact nature of Germany's intentions towards Czechoslovakia and they do not think Hitler is very sure of himself.
      3030
      Der Fuehrer has called for the incorporation of all Germans within the greater Reich, but this policy, if carried to an extreme might take in not only the Sudeten Deutsche but also the German-speaking peoples of all Europe and across the Atlantic as well."
      The last sentence points out a very grave danger. Supposing the extreme demands of the Sudeten Germans were acceded to and territorial autonomy were given, and it were in due course followed by incorporation in the Reich, you would have set a precedent which must inevitably be followed by similar agitation and propaganda among Germans in Switzerland, in Denmark, in France, in Poland, in all the countries surrounding Germany and, as the article indicates, amongst the Germans in Brazil and countries of that kind as well. Having once permitted it to take place in the case of Czechoslovakia, there would be no real answer to the demand which would inevitably be pressed forward from Germany for its extension. That shows the tremendous danger that exists in setting any precedent in the case of the Sudeten Germans now. In so far as there is a sincere desire on both sides to come to an agreement, the difficulty could easily be solved. There is not the slightest doubt about that. The Czech Government, if left to itself, could do it if there were no outside interference and, if we are able to believe the recent statement of Herr Hitler's Envoy that his desires are, as always, purely peaceful, there will be agreement and we need have no further trouble about it. But that may not be the case. In that case agreement is impossible. I take the view that the attitude of the German Government in this matter is purely opportunist, having failed in the frontal attack, using every diplomatic opportunity that arises for the purpose of marching into Czechoslovakia at the particular moment when everything seems favourable, and that she is not genuine in desiring a settlement at all. Nothing would displease Germany more than for a settlement to take place which would relieve all trouble and make everything quiet there.
      Each concession that is made by the Czech Government makes it more difficult for them as a State. They have taken grave risks. They have gone a very long way already and, when the actual proposals are published, the way the minorities, or nationalities as they should be called, are going to be treated will have a very grave reaction on the

      3031
      minorities in other countries in Central Europe, in Hungary, Jugoslavia and Rumania, where it will be seen that the treatment in Czechoslovakia is infinitely ahead of anything enjoyed anywhere in that part of the world, and very serious results may accrue from that. Surely Herr Hitler's game is to protest strongly at every concession that it is not enough and that he must have more until the time comes when he has absolutely everything that he wants. If I were in a position to give any advice to the Czechoslovakian Government it would be this. Having made all the concessions they possibly can to the extreme limit, having regard to the safety of the State, they should then say publicly to the world that they have done so, that they can go no further and that they are prepared to stand, alone if necessary, against any attack from an aggressor. I believe that an attitude of that kind would rally round Czechoslovakia, as it did on 21st May, those forces which then stood by her and which stand for law and order in the world.
      I heard with interest the announcement with regard to the appointment of Lord Runciman as mediator and, of course, I sincerely hope he will have every success in his exceedingly difficult task. The Prime Minister said that the Czechoslovakian Government had asked for the appointment. That is one of those very extraordinary things, like the sudden French closing of the Pyrenean frontier, that people do entirely on their own. I should like to ask the Under-Secretary whether it was a spontaneous proposal from the Czech Government. Was it not indeed put up to them and discussed with them beforehand and, their consent having been obtained, did they not then ask for the appointment to be made? It would be very much fairer to make that clear if it is the case as I believe. I was very much surprised to hear that Lord Runciman had accepted this appointment, because I think we who knew him in this House, and admired his great gifts and talents and wide experience, have never regarded him as a man who was sighing for fresh worlds to conquer or was really waiting for some gigantic task into which he might throw the whole of his weight with all the energy and enthusiasm of youth. We formed quite the contrary impression. Nor, in spite of his great experience,
      3032
      do I think he has actually had any diplomatic or Foreign Office work in the handling of difficult international negotiations of this kind. Still, he is a man of great ability and we hope he will succeed in the task.
      One thing that seems clear about the appointment is that he is deeply sympathetic to the Prime Minister's point of view. He would certainly not have been appointed unless he agreed with the Prime Minister's general view of foreign policy, and I am afraid there will be people who think that Lord Runciman has been sent to Prague in order to impose the Prime Minister's foreign policy on the Czechoslovakian Government. They may be quite wrong in thinking that but there will be people unkind enough to take that view. One of the grave dangers of the situation is obviously this. Supposing he comes to the conclusion that the Czech Government ought to do certain things which in their opinion would endanger the State, and he reports to the Government, and the Government at once says, "The Czechs are wrong. This great wonderful adviser has said they ought to do certain things and they will not." It will place them in a very difficult position indeed. It is from their point of view a very dangerous proposal to have made in the circumstances.
      Lastly, what practical alternative can we work upon? In order to get back gradually to collective security, as we must at some time, we ought to start with that little bit of it that arose suddenly on 2tst May. There you had, for the moment at any rate, Great Britain, France and Russia, perhaps Poland, perhaps others, certainly then prepared to act together against aggression. I have since then asked the Government whether they do not propose to proceed from that point and to organise. They say "No," but surely the wisest course would be not to rest content with that casual alignment of forces but to think it out, to plan it, and to organise it, so that the whole world would know exactly where everybody stood and what would happen to an aggressor if he moved. It would be made clear that that arrangement was open to Germany. She could come in on equal terms, and with full possibilities for the peaceful settlement of international grievances by third-party judgment.
      The Prime Minister said the League of Nations is in abeyance and that we all

      3033
      know the cause. I feel rather inclined to say, though I am not going to say it, that the cause is sitting on the Front Bench, but I am going deeper than that. While blame attaches to the Government, it really is because the people of the world, and above all the people of this country, are not sufficiently educated in the question of League principles, are not sufficiently determined to see them carried out in practice. The blame rests with the people. I hope the process of education will go on among all parties, that the Government will feel that they have full national backing for proceeding boldly on a collective policy, and that they will go forward and show the world that the wisest course is to extend the system of collective security which we have built up inside the British Empire to the whole globe.
      9.27 p.m.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): This is the 24th Debate upon foreign policy this year, and we have in the same period answered from this bench more than 1,400 Parliamentary questions on foreign affairs. Perhaps I may be permitted to say that this experience has been of some benefit to my knowledge of foreign policy, and I must personally express my appreciation to the House. I believe that I have learned a good deal about foreign policy, just as in the few odd moments which I am able to spend in my garden at home I may learn something about gardening. I know that it is not in the interest of problems in foreign affairs to dig them up by the roots too often, and when I come to examine some of my own plants I hope that I shall let them grow in their own sweet way over the summer. With regard to the atmosphere of the Debate this evening, I think we can find some satisfaction that it has elicited from my right lion. Friend the Prime Minister a comprehensive and encouraging speech which has received tributes from all parts of the House. Leaving aside the leaders in debate, we have had also some interesting speeches which I think show a grave desire to understand the point of view of other nations, and particularly of Germany, speeches such as that of the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley), the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Beechman) and the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter), and from the benches opposite
      3034
      the speech of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones). I regard that growing desire as very satisfactory.
      The subjects raised during the Debate seem to be grouped under three main areas, the Far East, Spain and Central Europe. The foreign policy of this country is engaged in dealing with a particularly tense situation in each of those areas of the world, As an Empire we are faced with very particular problems in all three areas. We are attempting to observe impartiality in the Far East where war has not actually been declared. We are pursuing a policy of not intervening in a civil war in Spain in which we regret that there has been foreign intervention. We are prepared to lend our services in Central Europe to help to solve a question which history has found for reasons of geography and of race to be particularly intractable. If we look at our policy in all these areas we shall see that there is a certain degree of uniformity. In none of these problems are we taking sides but are doing what we can to encourage the building of bridges between opposing points of view; it is rather this positive aspect of our policy in these three groups of problems to which I shall devote my few remarks this evening.
      I shall do my best to answer the many points which have been raised in the course of the Debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) raised several problems with regard to the Far East, in particular, what he alleged was a wool monopoly in North China, the question of the Pekin-Mukden Railway, the question of British ships and one or two other points. In reply to a question by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Moreing) at Question Time on Monday, I said that His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo was now engaged in a specially-arranged conversation with the Japanese Minister for Foreign Affairs. All these subjects, so I believe, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster referred, and the subjects which were raised at Question Time on Monday, are to be discussed in the course of this conversation. I would only say that we shall judge the sincerity of Japanese assurances in these matters by the success which we trust will attend the course of this important conversation.

      3035
      Other points have been raised in connection with China, in particular by the hon. Member for Caerphilly, who spoke of the China loan. I have not very much to add to what has already fallen from the Prime Minister on this point, but I would tell the hon. Member that we are well aware of the resolutions passed by the League on two occasions on this subject. The resolution of 6th October, 1937, asked Members of the League to refrain from taking any action which might have the effect of weakening China's powers of resistance, and asked them to examine individually how they could extend aid to China. I think it fair to say that no action we have taken would have the effect of weakening China's power of resistance. When we come to the resolution passed on 2nd February this year we find that the League Council
      "is confident that those States represented on the Council for whom the situation is of special interest will lose no opportunity of examining in consultation with those similarly interested the possibility of any further steps which may contribute to a just settlement of the conflict in the Far East."
      We have been fully alive to the very serious responsibilities imposed upon us as a result of supporting this Resolution. His Majesty's Government have given the closest consideration to all the possibilities, and our decision that we are not at present in a position to introduce legislation, which would be necessary in the case of a loan, does not rule out any and every kind of financial assistance to China. A number of proposals to which my right hon. Friend referred have been submitted by the Chinese Government to the Export Credits Guarantee Department. Those are being considered, and as far as that Department is concerned it will deal with applications for export credits to China in exactly the same way as it dealt with similar requests from elsewhere in the past.
      Mr. Morgan Jones: How can the Export Credits Department work along these lines if the difficulty is securities?
      Mr. Butler: The Prime Minister referred to that particular difficulty. I have naturally thought about this matter, and I think it is right to say what I have said, and to add that some of those proposals have already been examined. For reasons for which His Majesty's Government cannot be responsible, some have
      3036
      been rejected; others are still under consideration. His Majesty's Government are open to receive any others which the Chinese Government feel that they wish to submit to us.
      Mr. Arthur Henderson: Was not the difficulty overcome in the case of Turkey by His Majesty's Government underwriting Turkish Bills, and could not that be done in the case of China?
      Mr. Butler: No. I do not think that the two cases of a loan to China and the loan to Turkey are on exactly the same basis of security. Before I come to the many questions which have been raised on the subject of Spain, I would answer questions which were put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) with regard to Somaliland. The right hon. Gentleman will have seen that the agreements negotiated in Rome in January, 1937, deal with grazing rights of British tribes in Ethiopia and transit through British Somaliland for Ethiopia. These were published in June of this year as Command Paper 5775. I understand that the Governor of Somaliland has reported that the agreement has been working satisfactorily as a result of co-operation between British and Italian officers on the frontier. The right hon. Gentleman asked us a question about the supply of war material and the transit of troops. In the course of the negotiations which led up to the conclusion of this agreement it was made clear that the transit of troops and war material through the British Somaliland would not be permitted and such transit has not taken place.
      Sir A. Sinclair: I did not say anything about war material.
      Mr. Butler: I think the right hon. Gentleman suggested earlier in the Debate that arms and materials were being forwarded to the Italian forces in Ethiopia through Gambeila. The latest information which I have been able to obtain in the short time available is that merchandise has been imported and exported as in previous years from Gambeila through the Sudan by means of boats on the rivers Baro, Sobat, and the White Nile. No arms or munitions of war have been exported to Ethiopia over this route. I trust that this information will be welcomed.
      Sir A. Sinclair: That depends upon the definition of arms and munitions of war. I do suggest that stores and goods have been conveyed.
      Mr. Butler: I am answering the point which I understood the right hon. Gentleman to put, but I will certainly look further into it.
      Sir A. Sinclair: In regard to stores.
      Mr. Butler: I do not think that I can add to what the Prime Minister said about the recruiting of troops across the frontier of British Somaliland into Italian territory. The latest information that I have been able to get on this subject is that the Government of British Somaliland has reported that while no recruitment of Somalis for Italian forces is taking place in British Somaliland, yet the authorities in Italian East Africa have engaged some British-protected tribesmen outside the Protectorate. This information has been given before. This recruiting is, as far as we know, not continuing, but I am quite ready, in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, to make further inquiries on the subject.
      Let me now come to the question of Spain. Very much time has been devoted, especially in Parliamentary questions, to the subject. I would remind the House that our work in Spain has been positive. Sometimes the policy of non-intervention is put in a somewhat unattractive light by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I would remind them that we should appreciate their support in trying to carry forward the positive side of the policy of non-intervention. The hon. Member for Caerphilly referred to the "farce" of nonintervention; but if he regards our efforts to bring about a withdrawal of foreign nationals, and the plan which the Committee have forwarded to the two parties of Spain, as a farce, I am very sorry. I should have preferred his collaboration and support in bringing this plan to a successful conclusion. The time-table for the introduction of the plan depends upon the agreement of the two Spanish parties. After the Committee have considered the replies from the parties, they will have to consider the time-table on pages 20 and 21 of the report. The reply from the Spanish Government has been received and is being forwarded to the Non-Intervention Committee, and we are still
      3038
      awaiting the reply of the Burgos authorities. A question was put by the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) to-day and I answered by telling him that I would give him this information. I am accordingly doing so, in order to keep faith with him.
      Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: In thanking the hon. Gentleman may I ask whether the Spanish Government's reply is an acceptance of the British plan?
      Mr. Butler: I am afraid I could not say that at present, but we have just received it to-day, and I have not personally had any chance of examining it. It is our duty to forward it to the Non-Intervention Committee, and it would be improper to make any statement about it at this stage. I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will understand how we are placed. The hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) raised a point with regard to the French Government, and just as I regret the absence of collaboration of hon. Members opposite to help us with the plan of non-intervention in Spain, so I deplore that the hon. Gentleman, at this particular moment in the history of the Anglo-French entente, should look for possible, and, I believe, unreal points of difference between the two Governments. The House has paid a tribute to the very fine feelings which exist between the two Governments as a result of the Royal visit, and I am afraid I do not think it profitable to pursue on this occasion the line of argument which the hon. Gentleman has raised. I tried to understand his reasons for raising it, but I can only reply to him that I do not recognise any message containing the arguments which he put forward or the type of pressure to which he referred in the course of his speech, although I have examined the matter as closely as I can.
      All our interchanges with foreign Governments on the question of what is known as the British plan have been undertaken, irrespective of the Governments concerned, with a view to creating an atmosphere in which we could make the withdrawal plan a reality. That has been our object with every Government. I do not want to detain the House very long on the subject of intervention in Spain, but as it is always raised I would say a word or two about it before dealing

      3039
      with the question of ships. The Government are always in a difficulty on the question of information. I have tried sincerely in answering questions in the House to give the House the information which is in our possession. I will give one instance which occurred in the course of the Debate to-day. It was suggested that Italian troops have recently landed in large numbers at Vinaroz. I have been able to examine that statement, and our information goes to show that those troops were Spanish troops who had been landed from the Balearic Islands and their number was between 5,000 and 6, 000.
      Dr. Edith Summerskill: A letter was read to me in English by the Foreign Minister, Senor del Vayo, and there was no doubt that those troops were Italian and not Spanish.
      Mr. Butler: That illustrates the difficulty which we have about information. I do not deny the sincerity of the contribution which the hon. Lady has made to the Debate, but it illustrates our difference of opinion. Our information is that these troops were in fact Spanish troops, and that is why I imparted the information to the House. The hon. Lady disagrees with me, and I am afraid we must leave it at that, without wishing to deny the sincerity with which she has put her point of view.
      The hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) again raised the question of an article by General von Reichenau. I again repeat that we have received from the German Ambassador on behalf of his Government a categorical denial that such a lecture as that referred to was ever given. The hon. Member also raised several points on the subject of ships, and, in particular, he asked why there was a difference between the possibility of our taking action without territorial waters in China and the possibility of our taking action within territorial waters in Spain. There is this fundamental difference: that in Chinese waters we have certain treaty rights under the Treaty of Tientsin, made in the middle of the last century, which entitle us to take our warships into Chinese territorial waters. In the case of Spain we have no such treaty rights, and, if we took British warships into Spanish territorial waters, it must mean intervention in the Spanish
      3040
      war, which His Majesty's Government are not prepared to undertake.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley) raised the question of the distinction which he hopes the Government will make between the bombardment by high-flying aircraft of harbours in which ships are situated, and what he regarded, and what we regard, as the deliberate bombardment by low-flying aircraft of ships lying outside harbours. It is precisely that difference which the Government have maintained, and will maintain in their future negotiations with the Burgos authorities on this point. The hon. Member for East Wolverhampton raised a further point about the international commission on aerial bombardment in Spain. We have not yet received a reply from the Spanish Government, but we hope to receive one soon. Meanwhile the two British officers concerned have been appointed and are ready to proceed at once to undertake this important work within Spain at the request of either Spanish party.
      I think I have covered all the points which have been raised in the course of the Debate and which I am able to cover in the short time at my disposal. I think we can say, when we review the position, that the Government are taking a positive view in all the difficult problems that are facing them. By not taking sides in any of these particular struggles, the Government can quite easily be accused of a lack of idealism. The zealot very often wishes to join in the fight and show the intensity of his conviction, but in all this difficult time of war and conflict our zeal has been directed towards preserving the peace and keeping this country out of a major war. Let me refer again to one who is becoming a great friend of mine in these Debates. Mr. Spender, referring to his Liberal past and his present Liberal convictions, says—and I hope this will reassure right hon. and hon. Members who have been responsible for this Debate—
      "not a few of us have enough of the old Liberal pacifism in our make-up to feel that a year in which war has been averted is a year of gain, and, so far, a good contribution to peace."
      The Government have kept this country at peace. So far, that is a good contribution. It is our intention to attempt to make that peace continue so far as we are

      3041
      concerned, and to do so we shall need all the experience which our political wisdom and our sense of toleration can give us. I trust that in our efforts we may receive the help of all those who think likewise.
      Question put, "That '£71,143' stand part of the Resolution."
      The House divided: Ayes, 275; Noes, 128.

      Division No. 328.]

      AYES.

      [10.0 p.m.

      Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Lamb, Sir J. Q.

      Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

      Denville, Alfred

      Latham, Sir P.

      Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

      Dodd, J. S.

      Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

      Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

      Doland, G. F.

      Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

      Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

      Donner, P. W.

      Leech, Sir J. W.

      Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (So'h Univ's)

      Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

      Lees-Jones, J.

      Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

      Dower, Major A. V. G.

      Leighton, Major B. E. P.

      Apsley, Lord

      Drewe, C.

      Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

      Aske, Sir R. W.

      Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

      Liddall, W. S.

      Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

      Dugdale, Captain T. L.

      Lipson, D. L.

      Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

      Duggan, H. J.

      Little, Sir E. Graham-

      Balfour, Capt. H. H. (lile of Thanet)

      Duncan, J. A. L.

      Loftus, P. C.

      Balniel, Lord

      Dunglass, Lord

      Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

      Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

      Eastwood, J. F.

      MacAndrow, Colonel Sir C. G.

      Barria, Sir C. C.

      Eckersley, P. T.

      McCorquodale, M. S.

      Baxter, A. Beverley

      Edmondson, Major Sir J.

      MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

      Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

      Macdonald, Capt. T. (Isle of Wight)

      Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

      Ellis, Sir G.

      McKie, J. H.

      Betohman, N. A.

      Elliston, Capt. G. S.

      Macmillan, H. (Stoekton-on-Tees)

      Bennett, Sir E. N.

      Elmley, Viscount

      Maitland, A.

      Birchall, Sir J. D.

      Emery, J. F.

      Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

      Bird, Sir R. B.

      Emmott, C. E. G. C.

      Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

      Blair, Sir R.

      Emrys-Evans, P. V.

      Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

      Boulton, W. W.

      Entwistle, Sir C. F.

      Markham, S. F.

      Bower, Comdr. R. T.

      Errington, E.

      Marsden, Commander A.

      Boyce, H. Leslie

      Erskine-Hill, A. G.

      Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

      Braithwaite, Major A. N.

      Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

      Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

      Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

      Everard, W. L.

      Meller, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

      Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

      Fildes, Sir H.

      Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

      Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

      Findlay, Sir E.

      Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

      Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

      Fleming, E. L.

      Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

      Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

      Fox, Sir G. W. G.

      Morgan, R. H.

      Bull, B. B.

      Fyfe, D. P. M.

      Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

      Bullock, Capt. M.

      Gluckstein, L. H.

      Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

      Burton, Col. H. W.

      Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

      Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

      Butcher, H. W.

      Grant-Ferris, R.

      Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

      Butler, R. A.

      Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

      Munro, P.

      Campbell, Sir E. T.

      Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

      Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

      Cartland, J. R. H.

      Gridley, Sir A. B.

      Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

      Carver, Major W. H.

      Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

      O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

      Cary, R. A.

      Gritten, W. G. Howard

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

      Patrick, C. M.

      Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

      Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

      Peat, C. U.

      Cazalet Thelma (Islington, E.)

      Guinness, T. L. E. B.

      Perkins, W. H. D.

      Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

      Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

      Petherick, M.

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

      Hambro, A. V.

      Pickthorn, K. W. M.

      Channon, H.

      Hannah, I. C.

      Pilkington, R.

      Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

      Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

      Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

      Christie, J. A.

      Harbord, A.

      Porritt, R. W.

      Clarry, Sir Reginald

      Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

      Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

      Clydesdale, Marquess of

      Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

      Procter, Major H. A.

      Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

      Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

      Radford, E. A.

      Colfox, Major W. P.

      Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

      Raikes, H. V. A. M.

      Colman, N. C. D.

      Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

      Ramsbotham, H.

      Colville, Rt. Hon. John

      Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

      Ramsden, Sir E.

      Conant, Captain R. J. E.

      Hepworth, J.

      Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

      Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

      Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

      Rayner, Major R. H.

      Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

      Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

      Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

      Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

      Holmes, J. S.

      Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

      Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

      Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

      Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

      Cox, H. B. Trevor

      Hopkinson, A.

      Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

      Craven-Ellis, W.

      Horsbrugh, Florence

      Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

      Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

      Howitt, Dr. A. B.

      Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

      Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

      Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack,, N.)

      Ropner, Colonel L.

      Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

      Hulbert, N. J.

      Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

      Croom-Johnson, R. P.

      Hunter, T.

      Ross, Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

      Cross, R. H.

      Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

      Rowlands, G.

      Crossley A. C.

      James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

      Royde, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

      Crowder, J. F. E.

      Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

      Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

      Cruddas, Col. B.

      Keeling, E. H.

      Russell, Sir Alexander

      Culverwell, C. T.

      Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

      Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

      Davidson, Viscountees

      Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

      Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

      Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

      Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

      Salmon, Sir I.

      De Chair, S. S.

      Kimball, L.

      Salt, E. W.

      De la Bère, R.

      Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

      Samuel, M. R. A.

      Sandeman, Sir N. S.

      Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

      Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

      Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

      Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

      Wayland, Sir W. A.

      Scott, Lord William

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

      Wedderburn, H. J. S.

      Selley, H. R.

      Tasker, Sir R. I.

      Wells, Sir Sydney

      Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

      Tate, Mavis C.

      Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

      Shepperson, Sir E. W.

      Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

      Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

      Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

      Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

      Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

      Simmonds, O. E.

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

      Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

      Touche, G. C.

      Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

      Smith, Sir Louis (Hallam)

      Tufneil, Lieut.-Commender R. L.

      Wise, A. R.

      Smithers, Sir W.

      Turton, R. H.

      Womersley, Sir W. J.

      Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

      Wakefield, W. W.

      Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Walker-Smith, Sir J.

      Wragg, H.

      Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

      Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

      Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

      Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

      Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

      Spens, W. P.

      Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

      Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

      Warrender, Sir V.

      Mr. Grimston and Mr. Furness.

      Storey, S.

      Waterhouse, Captain C.

      NOES.

      Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

      Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

      Parkinson, J. A.

      Adams, D. (Consett)

      Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

      Pearson, A.

      Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

      Groves, T. E.

      Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

      Adamson, W. M.

      Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

      Poole, C. C.

      Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

      Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

      Price, M. P.

      Ammon, C. G.

      Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

      Quibell, D. J. K.

      Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

      Hardie, Agnes

      Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

      Banfield, J. W.

      Hayday, A.

      Richards, R. (Wrexham)

      Barnes, A. J.

      Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

      Riley, B.

      Batey, J.

      Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

      Ritson, J.

      Bellenger, F. J.

      Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

      Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

      Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

      Hills, A. (Pontefract)

      Rothschild, J. A. de

      Benson, G.

      Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

      Sexton, T. M.

      Broad, F. A.

      Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

      Silverman, S. S.

      Bromfield, W.

      John, W.

      Simpson, F. B.

      Brown, C. (Mansfield)

      Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

      Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

      Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

      Burke, W. A.

      Kelly, W. T.

      Smith, E. (Stoke)

      Charleton, H. C.

      Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

      Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

      Chater, D.

      Kirby, B. V.

      Smith, T. (Normanton)

      Cluse, W. S.

      Kirkwood, D.

      Sorensen, R. W.

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

      Lathan, G.

      Stephen, C.

      Cocks, F. S.

      Lawson, J. J.

      Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

      Collindridge, F.

      Lee, F.

      Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

      Daggar, G.

      Leslie, J. R.

      Summerskill, Dr. Edith

      Dalton, H.

      Lunn, W.

      Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

      Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

      Macdonald, G. (Ince)

      Tinker, J. J.

      Day, H.

      McEntee, V. La T.

      Tomlinson, G.

      Dobbie, W.

      McGhee, H. G.

      Viant, S. P.

      Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

      MacLaren, A.

      Walkden, A. G.

      Ede, J. C.

      Maclean, N.

      Watkins, F. C.

      Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

      Mander, G. le M.

      Watson, W. McL.

      Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

      Marshall, F.

      Welsh, J. C.

      Foot, D. M.

      Mathers, G.

      White, H. Graham

      Frankel, D.

      Maxton, J.

      Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

      Gallacher, W.

      Milner, Major J.

      Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

      Gardner, B. W.

      Montague, F.

      Williams, T. (Don Valley)

      Garro Jones, G. M.

      Muff, G.

      Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

      Gibson, R. (Greenock)

      Nathan, Colonel H. L.

      Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

      Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

      Naylor, T. E.

      Young, Sir R. (Newton)

      Green, W. H. (Deptford)

      Oliver, G. H.

      Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

      Owen, Major G.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

      Grenfell, D. R.

      Paling, W.

      Sir Hugh Seely and Sir Percy

      Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

      Parker, J.

      Harris.

      Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

      It being after Ten of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 14, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolution under consideration.
      Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in
      respect of Classes I to IX of the Civil Estimates, the Revenue Departments Estimates, the Navy Estimates, the Army Estimates, and the Air Estimates."

    CIVIL ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1938.
      CLASS I.

        CENTRAL GOVERNMENT AND FINANCE.
        Question,
        "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported

        3045
        in respect of Class I of the Civil Estimates,"
        put, and agreed to.

      CLASS II.

        FOREIGN AND IMPERIAL.
        Question,
        "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class II of the Civil Estimates"
        put, and agreed to.

      CLASS III.

        HOME DEPARTMENT, LAW AND JUSTICE.
        Question,
        "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class III of the Civil Estimates,"
        put, and agreed to.

      CLASS IV.

        EDUCATION AND BROADCASTING.
        Question,
        "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class IV of the Civil Estimates,"
        put, and agreed to.

      CLASS V.

        HEALTH, LABOUR AND INSURANCE.
        Question,
        "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class V of the Civil Estimates,"
        put, and agreed to.

      CLASS VI.

        TRADE, INDUSTRY AND TRANSPORT.
        Question,
        "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class VI of the Civil Estimates,"
        put, and agreed to.

      CLASS VII.

        COMMON SERVICES (WORKS, STATIONERY, ETC.).
        Question,
        "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class VII of the Civil Estimates,"
        put, and agreed to.

      NON-EFFECTIVE CHARGES (PENSIONS).
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class VIII of the Civil Estimates,"
      put, and agreed to.

    CLASS IX.

      EXCHEQUER CONTRIBUTIONS TO LOCAL REVENUES.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class IX of the Civil Estimates,"
      put, and agreed to.

      REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1938.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Revenue Departments Estimates,"
      put, and agreed to.

      NAVY ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1938.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Navy Estimates,"
      put, and agreed to.

      ARMY ESTIMATES, 1938.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Army Estimates,"
      put, and agreed to.

      AIR ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1938.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of the Air Estimates,"
      put, and agreed to.

      WAYS AND MEANS [25th July].
      Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of

      3047
      Ways and Means, Sir John Simon, and Captain Euan Wallace.

      CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL,
      "to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and thirty-nine, and to appropriate the supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 232.]

      STRAITS OF GIBRALTAR (GUN BATTERIES).
      Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Captain Hope.)
      10.14 p.m.
      Mr. Arthur Henderson: I desire to raise the question of the guns which have been installed in the vicinity of Gibraltar and the North African Coast. I do so in the hope that the Secretary for War will give the House and the country more information than he was prepared to give this afternoon. That German guns have been installed is, I think, generally admitted. The Secretary of State for War himself, on 2nd November, 1937, in reply to a question which was addressed to him on that day, said:
      "The guns on the Straits of Gibraltar are of various calibres from 12-inch howitzers downwards. Ceuta was a defended port before the civil war began, and its armament has not been reinforced since the early period of the war and then only by guns of secondary calibre. On the Gibraltar side batteries were installed after the shelling of Algeciras. As the big guns on this side are howitzers which are not normally installed for seaward purposes, it is a reasonable deduction that the defences have been improvised for the protection of Spanish Nationalist territory. The guns on both sides of the Straits are of various dates and countries of origin."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd November, 1937; 727, Vol. 328.]
      No official statement has ever been made as to the numbers, calibres and countries of origin of these guns. Let me give the House the information in my possession with regard to these guns. I am informed that in the hills surrounding Algeciras more than 20 guns have been mounted. These guns include three guns of more than 10 inches, and a number of 5.9-inch guns, together with several
      3048
      heavy howitzers. My information is that all these guns are so placed that they can easily shell Gibraltar, although they have been placed so as to be invisible from the highest point on the Rock. There are nine naval guns on the Punta Carnero, and at least one 15-inch gun on a high peak near Alcala de las Gazules, placed nearly 21 miles inland. These are guns in the vicinity of Gibraltar, and in Ceuta, in Spanish Morocco, there are some 45 guns, ranging from 6-inch to 15-inch. When the Noble Lady the Member for Perth and Kinross (Duchess of Atholl) raised this matter by question on 29th June, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs replied:
      "I realise the importance which the Noble Lady attaches to the question, and I assure her that the matter is receiving consideration."—[OFFCIAL REPORT, 29th June, 1938; col. 1886, Vol. 337.]
      To-day I asked the Minister if he would state the countries of origin of these guns. He replied that his information was not of a kind which could be made the basis of an authoritative and detailed statement. Surely, the Minister does not seriously suggest to the House that these guns have been installed in the vicinity of Gibraltar and that they do not know the countries in which these guns were manufactured and by whom they were supplied to General Franco? This country has sources of information second to none, and I cannot believe that these sources of information have failed it in regard to the question of these guns, their calibre, their type, and their country of origin. Why do not the Government publish this information? Why is there this continued hiding behind the veil of official secrecy? For nearly two years the Government have declined all official knowledge of German and Italian intervention in Spain. During recent months, it is now common knowledge, in both countries they have openly boasted of their intervention. The House had a very good illustration tonight. It has been alleged that 10,000 Italians recently landed at Vinaroz, in Franco Spain. According to the Under-Secretary in his speech to-night that statement was entirely inaccurate, according to the Government information. Apparently they were 6,000 or 7,000 Spaniards belonging to General Franco's forces. Therefore, when it is desired to use information to contradict assertions of the Spanish Government, there is no difficulty in obtaining information, but

      3049
      when it is a question affecting the other side, the difficulty seems to increase.
      If the information with regard to the guns is correct, can there be any doubt that their installation constitutes a serious threat not only to Gibraltar but also to our sea route through the Mediterranean and the Eastern Atlantic? I hope the Minister to-night will be frank with the House, although I do not see him here yet, and that he will let us have the full facts about these matters. If the guns have been sent, as has been alleged, from German sources, then the German Government must realise that if they desire to obtain British friendship they have only to withdraw their troops and their armaments from Spanish territory. Be that as it may, I hope the veil of mystery will be lifted to-night and that the Government will give us the information, which must be in their possession, first, as to the calibre of the guns that have been installed in the vicinity of Gibraltar and on the North Coast of Africa and, secondly, the countries in which those guns were manufactured. There can be no harm in giving the information to the House, if there is nothing wrong in supplying General Franco with these guns. It may be—I do not know—that the guns were supplied prior to the agreement of 27th August, 1936. If the guns were supplied properly to General Franco, and if they are to be used for legitimate purposes, why should there be any secrecy as to the countries of origin? I hope the information will be given to the House.
      10.23 p.m.
      Mr. Bellenger: I desire to support my hon. Friend in the demand that he has made of the Government that this House shall be given information on what, I suggest, is a matter of considerable importance to the country. I do not know whether the Secretary of State for War intends to be here to reply to the demands which my hon. Friend has made. It is true that we cannot claim a monopoly in the Mediterranean, but if all the proclaimed friendship which these other nations appear to have for this country is genuine, and if they are not menacing British interests, if they are not attempting to intimidate this country into a policy which otherwise we should not wish to follow, then I suggest that if the facts given to the House by my hon. Friend are true,
      3050
      British interests are being menaced, and it is the duty of the Government to explain to the House whether they are going to acquiesce in British interests in the Mediterranean being menaced in this fashion.
      Hon. Members opposite have rather derided the statements that have been made on this side of the House and have said that we are too ready to give voice to rumours. If they are unfounded rumours, if there is no accuracy in what my hon. Friend has said, surely it is the easiest thing for the Government, with all the sources of information at their command, to say that what my hon. Friend has said is entirely untrue, and we can then go home and rest contentedly in our beds with our sleep undisturbed.
      Although, as I have said, we have no monopoly of the Mediterranean, I think we should know from the Government whether these guns have been mounted there; secondly, by whom they have been mounted; and, thirdly, whether they have been mounted at a spot where they are a menace to British interests. If my hon. Friend's facts are accurate and British interests are being menaced, it is the duty of the Government to say what policy they propose to follow in order to get the guns removed. It may be a very inconvenient subject to bring forward at this hour, but surely the House has some concern for British interests, if they are being affected in the way suggested, and we have a right to know what policy the Government propose to follow, because incidents like these are not in the interests of peace, which is so much proclaimed by the Government. I do not think the House will disagree with me in saying that my hon. Friend has done a service to this country by raising this matter to-night.
      10.27 p.m.
      Wing-Commander James: I do not pro-
      pose to detain the House for more than two minutes. Complaints have been made about possible landings at Vinaroz. I think it is most unlikely that Italian troops would make use of this port. It is a comparatively small port and no ships over about 600 tons could possibly get into it. The commonsense view is that if Italian troops have been landed they have gone to Castellon which is a good harbour 40 miles further South. As to any heavy guns which may have been mounted, there was a pre-war equivalent

      3051
      of our Woolwich Arsenal in the North of Spain at Trubia where there are facilities for casting large guns. It is not, therefore, necessary to assume that the guns of a large calibre now in the Peninsular could not have been cast in the Peninsular. The factory at Trubia has been in active production for a good many months now and there is every facility for casting very big guns there.
      10.29 p.m.
      Mr. A. V. Alexander: We quite under-stand the reasons why the Secretary of State for War was delayed, and we make no complaint about it. In the circumstances it might be as well to give him a picture of what we complain about so that we may get a direct answer to the points that have been raised. We are all indebted to the hon. Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson) for taking advantage of this opportunity to raise the matter. I hope the Secretary of State will realise that from the moment, some 12 months ago, the story appeared with every kind of indication of authentic observation on the spot in regard to the mounting of guns on the North coast of Africa very near Gibraltar, there has been at any rate among some sections of the public, considerable apprenhension as to what would be likely to be the result of such an action. It may be that hon. Members such as the hon. and gallant Member for Wellingborough (Wing-Commander James) always seize an opportunity of defending any action taken by people holding views favourable to Franco—
      Wing-Commander James: I was only occupying the House until the Minister came.
      Mr. Alexander: I am sure that any Member wearing the old school tie will always keep his end up, but the few remarks which the hon. and gallant Member addressed to the House were in the usual strain of remarks by him on this subject. Nevertheless, a very large section of the community views with considerable concern the reports that had been current in different degrees during the last 12 months. It is not long ago that one of my hon. Friends asked a question concerning the very strong propagandist speeches made by people fairly close to General Franco in the
      3052
      vicinity of Gibraltar, and concerning all sorts of designs and intentions that have been made public with regard to the occupation of that very important point. Anybody who has been concerned in the defence of Commonwealth routes and who recognises the extreme importance of the maintenance of the guard which we keep and the dockyard facilities which we provide at Gibraltar, must be exceedingly unhappy about the position unless we can have an assurance on the matter which has been raised to-night. If there is nothing in those reports, then, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford said, there is no objection to the Government stating the facts. If, however, the position is that gun mountings have been placed in these very important strategic positions, then the country is entitled to know from the Government, not what steps are going to be taken, but what steps have been taken during the last 12 months.
      For instance, I should like to know whether the Secretary of State has specific information both in regard to the Spanish mainland and to North Africa, whether he has communicated his information to the Foreign Office, and whether representations have been made to try to obtain the reasons for these emplacements from the authorities concerned. I suppose that, in the first instance, the representations would be addressed to the Burgos authorities, and it is very important that we should know, not only what the answer of General Franco has been, but, if the guns are there, what is their calibre; what the actual menace would be in the event of their being used in a hostile fashion against us, what is the origin of these guns and how were they supplied? I do not think there is any hon. Member on either side of the House who does not want to ensure that there is no undue handicap placed in the way of those who have to maintain the freedom of passage of ships flying the British flag, in war or in peace, on the Commonwealth routes, and I do not think it is asking too much when I say to the Government that it is their bounden duty to inform the House of the facts.
      10.34 P.m.
      The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): I am grateful for the indulgence of the House and for the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander), who explained in advance

      3053
      the circumstances in which my presence here was delayed. I need hardly say that had I realised that the Debate would take place so early, I should have been here before. I was engaged upon another aspect of my duties, as I think the House will realise.
      There is no need for secrecy in regard to the matters which are being discussed. The embarrassment which I feel is the embarrassment which I endeavoured to explain to the hon. Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson), who quite properly asked me questions on the subject this afternoon. I am quite ready to answer for any matters under my immediate control and to speak authoritatively upon the subject, but if I cannot reveal certain information about matters under my own control, the right hon. Gentleman will be the first to appreciate why I should claim his permission to be silent. But here we are dealing with matters under the control of other authorities and I would not like to make any authoritative pronouncement as to the facts or figures. There are, in fact, guns on the Gibraltar side of the Straits and there are, in fact, guns on the Ceuta side of the Straits and by means of information which comes to us from time to time, we obtain a rough general idea of how many guns and what kind of guns there may be either on one side or the other. But I think it would be indiscreet and perhaps dangerous if I were to translate information which comes from various sources, into precise revelations.
      Therefore I do hope that the House will be gracious enough to permit me not to say exactly what kind of information is brought to me. It might embarrass the source of the information were I to do so, but I assure the House that there is no reason for secrecy because information comes to hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House on these matters. I have no reason to believe that that information differs from my own, but when it is given from this Box, it receives an imprimatur which perhaps is more than it deserves. The batteries which are on the Gibraltar side of the Straits could, of course, if they were effective and powerful and in order, shell Gibraltar. I do not think that could be denied. They could do that, but they could also be effectively countered. We are not in any state of alarm about them.
      3054
      Similarly, with regard to the guns on the Ceuta side of the Straits, they do constitute, as all guns must, a potential menace, but it is a menace which could be avoided by the means at our disposal.
      That is a frank statement of the general position. I do not think it would be of very much interest to amplify or analyse it in any particularity. That is the fact and I do not think that hon. Gentlemen opposite are misinformed upon its character. I think they have a right to be assured that we are not unduly alarmed and that we have at our disposal resources which would counter any potential menace. I think I can give them that assurance. Nobody is in a great state of excitement at the War Office. The information which is in our possession has been in our possesion for a long time, as it has been in the possession of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Indeed, it is exactly a year ago since my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence endeavoured to reassure the House on exactly the same lines as I am endeavouring to reassure it now, and it is perhaps some consolation to know that in the intervening period nothing disastrous has happened.
      Of course we must not under-estimate any peril which may be offered to our position. We do not intend to engage in any war. There is nothing practical that we can do, except to assure the House that, on our side, we are taking every possible precaution. These guns are of various origins and why they are of various origins is because guns of heavy calibre, I am given to understand, are not made in Spain. Therefore, any guns on either side would naturally come from foreign sources. I would not like to take the responsibility of pointing to any particular gun and saying that that originally came from this or that country, because it might have been purchased indirectly. If there were any advantage in putting my finger on any particular gun and giving that information, I would readily do so, but I do not want to complicate an international situation which is not too easy at the moment, and, therefore, I hope that, if I assure the House that the General Staff is not unduly alarmed and is of the opinion that we can cope with any situation that presents itself, the House will be satisfied with that assurance.
      Mr. Alexander: What we really want to know is this: Have the Government, in the course of the last 12 months, taken any note of the fact that these very heavy guns, situated, as the Secretary of State admits, so as to be potentially a menace to the Gibraltar defences—has that note been taken in such a way as to bring it to the attention of the authorities who erected them, and, if so, what representations were made and what were the answers received? What is the object of mounting in these positions guns of that calibre unless it is as a potential menace to Gibraltar? I think we really ought to know what has been said to the people who are responsible for their mounting and to know what the answer has been.
      Miss Rathbone: Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to suppose that the mounting of any of these guns is contrary to Treaty? Am I not right in thinking that there is a Treaty between us and Spain that prevents guns being mounted on heights in such a way that they command Gibraltar? I think that when we heard about these guns, over a year ago, it was alleged that the placing of them there was contrary to the Treaty, or at any rate that is true of some of them.
      Mr. Hore-Belisha: The right hon. Gentleman asked me whether the Government have taken any note of the position. Of course they have taken note of the position. It is the duty of the War Office to bring to the attention of the Government any developments of importance that occur, and that we have naturally done, in pursuance of our duty. Whether my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has delivered any precise Note in regard to these guns, I am not in a position to say, but I take it that he would be guided by what I have already said, namely, that we are not unduly alarmed and that therefore there would be no absolutely practical purpose to be served in delivering any Note.
      With regard to the question raised by the hon. Lady, I do not think that anything has been done, as far as I can speak—and I am not an authority, because that is a matter for the Foreign Office—in defiance of the Treaty. I do not think that is the case, but at any rate it must be realised that there is a civil war in Spain, and when there is a
      3056
      civil war it is not very easy to call attention to any precise breaches of any treaties. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office has put in front of me an answer to a question which was delivered upon that point, and the answer was:
      "The provision of the Treaty of Utrecht to which the hon. Member presumably refers raises certain difficult legal considerations about which I am not at present prepared to make a statement.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th July, 1937; col. 3524, Vol. 326.]
      That answer was delivered by the Noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the 3oth of the month that we are now in, last year, when he was Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. It is a very complicated legal position, and I am not in a position to define it, but the fact is that there is a civil war, and I do not think that juridical points have very much influence in restraining either side in these matters.
      10.45 p.m.
      Sir Percy Harris: The right hon. Gentleman referred to an answer given to the House by the then Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs 12 months ago. He pointed out that there was considerable legal difficulty in defining the actual repercussions of the Agreement. I suggest that after 12 months the Foreign Office, with the aid of its legal advisers, must now know the real legal implications, and the Prime Minister might clear up what has been a subject of great interest in the House of Commons. I do not think my right hon. Friend can take shelter under the fact that this concerns another Department. We have always maintained Cabinet responsibilities as a whole. He is a Member of the Cabinet and the Government must shoulder the responsibility of making clear to the House how far our interests are concerned.
      Mr. Hore-Belisha: I agree with the hon. Baronet about the importance on certain hypotheses of clearing up the legal position. The Treaty referred to is the Treaty of Utrecht, and, if my memory does not escape me, it was made in the reign of Queen Anne, and various matters which were settled in her reign are considered as obsolete. Although in general and in theory the matter is of importance, in practice it is governed by the fact that there is a civil war, and whether it would be advisable to pursue the exact legal interpretation I do not know.
      10.47 p.m.
      Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: We were interested to hear the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Wellingborough (Wing-Commander James), who was sent in to play for time while the captain of the side was working out his plans. He told us an interesting story about some arsenal in the north of Spain which could cast big guns, but he failed to tell us when it last cast a big gun and how big it was, and whether these guns were in any way similar to those which have been mounted on the Straits of Gibraltar. Considering the gallant way in which he passed the time of waiting for the Secretary of State for War, it was cruel of the Secretary of State to say that, as a matter of fact, no guns of heavy calibre are made or cast in Spain.
      Wing-Commander James: They certainly do cast big howitzers, so I was not inaccurate. I do not know if my right hon. Friend alluded to guns or howitzers.
      Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: The Secretary of State stands in need of every conceivable excuse that can be made for him, and I am sure he will be grateful for the intervention of the hon. and gallant Member. We know, for it has been elicited in reply to a question recently, that the Committee of Imperial Defence is considering the situation created in Gibraltar by the siting of these guns and other considerations which obtain at the present moment. I accept the statement of the Secretary of State that the menace constituted by these guns can be met. At the same time there is no doubt that they constitute a serious menace which will add greatly to the difficulties and dangers which may confront us in the Straits of Gibraltar in the eventuality of war, and will no doubt add considerably to the losses which will result in the event of war in that quarter.
      There are two points which particularly interested me in what the right hon. Gentleman said. He said that there were batteries on the Gilbraltar side which could shell Gibraltar, but that these batteries could be effectively countered. It would have been interesting if he had elaborated that statement a little, because it seems to me that if only one gun of large calibre were mounted 20 or 25 miles away from Gibraltar, it would be able to carry out effective shelling, while to locate
      3058
      or to register a direct hit upon the isolated gun so mounted would constitute a serious problem.
      The other point that I thought of importance was this: The right hon. Gentleman said these guns might be of foreign origin, but he did not wish to enlarge upon that point because they might have been bought through some intermediary. It seems to me that by far the most important point is, who was responsible for them being brought to the Straits of Gibraltar, or to Ceuta, and what was the nationality of the engineers, the officers and the personnel who carried out the work of mounting them? There is no question of an intermediary arising in that respect and, since the right hon. Gentleman has informed us that sources of information are open to the Government, and evidently the Government attaches weight to those sources of information, I should imagine the Government have some information on the specific point of the nationality of the personnel engaged in mounting the guns, and that is a matter on which the House might legitimately ask for some information. If that question could be settled, I do not think there is any weight in the argument that there is a civil war going on and that anything might happen because of that civil war. I cannot believe that these guns have been mounted in the neighbourhood of Gibraltar or at Ceuta for any purpose whatsoever connected with the civil war. They have been mounted for some completely different reason, and I believe it is a reason directed against our national interests and our national security, and on that account I consider that we are entitled to more information as to the nationality of those engaged in mounting these guns. As we have heard to-day that it is intended that Sir Robert Hodgson shall return to his post with the Burgos Government, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has considered representing to the Foreign Secretary that Sir Robert Hodgson should also take back with him to Burgos some representation on the subject of these guns.
      10.53 p.m.
      Mr. Ede: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman can expect that the House will be content to leave the matter where he left it at the end of his speech. I should like to ask whether the removal of these

      3059
      guns will be part of that magic phrase which has hitherto not been defined, "a settlement in Spain." Is this matter receiving any consideration from that point of view at all? We understood from his speech that when the civil war broke out the guns were not there. They have been placed there during the civil war. He suggests that possibly they may be some incident of the civil war though, as far as I can gather, the Allies of the side that placed them there have never had any great reason for fearing up to the moment that their enemies in the civil war would be within range of those guns. Therefore I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to be a little more specific on that point. He says that it is very reassuring that during the 12 months that have elapsed since attention was first drawn to the matter in this House nothing has happened. Has he really been expecting that someone might accidentally fire a salvo from those batteries at Gibraltar, and is he relieved to find that nothing has happened? If these guns are not removed at the end of the Spanish civil war we may, if there is anything in the theory of the knock-out blow, find that they have been used before it has been possible to bring into action the weapons that he says can be relied upon effectually to counter them.
      I am not at all reassured to hear that the War Office is not getting excited. Unfortunately, I am old enough to remember the beginning of the Boer War. The War Office was not excited then about the armaments possessed by the Boers. I recall a famous cartoon by the late Frank Carruthers Gould showing Mr. Balfour expressing surprise that the Boers had rifles. It was based on a statement he had made in this House. No one can expect that the House will be reassured because those in high command at the War Office are not alarmed about the state of affairs. I say that we are entitled to know whose engineers and artillerists were responsible for the mounting of these guns. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that the information is well known, that it is only some sort of unofficial Official Secrets Act which prevents everybody from blurting out the statement. If it is as widely known as all that, the knowledge cannot be confined to this country, and to suggest that a dangerous international situation might be created if a member of the
      3060
      Government were to state the nationality of the engineers and artillerists responsible is asking the House to accept a proposition which I am sure they will find it impossible to accept.
      I think the Government gravely misunderstand the national feeling with regard to Gibraltar. For the past 70 or 80 years every child in an elementary school has been brought up to believe that Gibraltar stands as a monument of the impregnable and unassailable position of the British Empire. In my own county, which is by no means a maritime county, every school has had a picture of the Rock of Gibraltar, placed there in the far-off days when the Tories wanted to persuade the people that the British Empire was unsafe in the hands of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman. For 3o or 40 years the children of the county have gazed every day upon that picture of the Rock of Gibraltar, and have had it pointed out as a symbol of the impregnability and unassailability of the British Empire. The right hon. Gentleman says to-night that that rock can now be shelled and treats the Treaty of Utrecht as a joke. It is a great pity that the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) is not here to deal satisfactorily with him for so astounding a statement regarding what is sometimes regarded as one of the greatest pieces of work of the reign of Queen Anne, and although it is true—
      It being Eleven of the Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment lapsed, without Question put.

      PUBLIC HEALTH (COAL MINE REFUSE) BILL.
      Order for Second Reading read.
      Hon. Members: Object.
      Mr. Tinker: In view of the opposition to this Bill, and which, I think, is unreasonable, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Bill.
      Order discharged; Bill withdrawn.
      The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

      STRAITS OF GIBRALTAR (GUN BATTERIES).
      Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Lieut.-Colonel Kerr.]
      11.2 p.m.
      Mr. Ede: I am certain that the Government gravely misunderstand the state of public feeling with regard to Gibraltar. It is recognised rightly as an essential part of the life-line of the Empire, and I have no belief at all in the calm suggestions held out to us this evening that this menace to the existence of the Empire and of the trade routes on which our food supplies depend can be treated in that light way. I believe that at the end of this incident in Spain, whether it is regarded as a civil war or as an invasion of Spain, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Mr. E. Smith) prefers to call it, we shall find those guns still mounted there, unless the British Government take steps now to make it plain that no settlement in Spain can be regarded as complete that does not involve the removal of those weapons from their present menacing position. Nothing short of that will be regarded by the country as a surrender to those bullies to whom the Government have consistently been surrendering during the past six or seven years. It was a National Liberal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs who commenced the surrender, in respect of Manchukuo; the speech of the right hon. Gentleman shows that he is in full sympathy with the policy that was then started, and which has had such devastating results upon the peace of the world; and which will continue to have them while right hon. Gentlemen sit there, usurping the reins of government.
      11.4 p.m.
      Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Some of the observations of hon. Members opposite require an answer. With what has been said about Gibraltar by the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) I cordially agree, but it is sometimes forgotten that Gibraltar has been in the hands of the British for a longer time than it was in the hands of the Spaniards. It is also forgotten that the distinguished Admiral who captured Gibraltar was court-martialled and dismissed the Service as soon as he returned to England. I have some knowledge of
      3062
      Gibraltar and the Straits of Gibraltar, and the conditions obtaining there, and I appreciate the feelings of many people in this country, not only in this House, that there may be a menace to Gibraltar by the mounting of heavy artillery on either side of the Straits. But I think one should try to view the matter in proportion. Guns which are mounted in positions which can be determined and are well known are not the real menace to Gibraltar. A gun which is mounted at Ceuta or Tarifa Point is not mounted there, I venture to suggest to the House, without any feeling of partiality for either of the sides in Spain, in any way as a menace to Gibraltar. Obviously anyone prosecuting military operations in Spain—and again I assure the House that I desire to take no sides—is bound to secure, so far as he can, the transport of troops from Morocco to Spain, and I believe that these guns were mounted in order to command the Straits for the passage of troops.
      It may be said that the mounting of these guns, therefore, constitutes a menace to Gibraltar, and that to a certain extent is true, but I think, and I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) will agree with me, that anyone who has any knowledge of artillery will realise that the menace to the guns at Tarifa from guns on Gibraltar, accurately mounted, accurately sighted and with great potential powers of destruction, is as great as, if not greater than, the menace to Gibraltar from guns mounted at Tarifa or elsewhere along the Straits. I think the House should realise that the menace to Gibraltar is not constituted by guns in fixed emplacements in Tarifa or anywhere else. If you are afraid for Gibraltar, you should look 20 miles beyond the hills to a battery of mobile howitzers, and if this House is concerned, as, indeed it should be concerned, for the safety of Gibraltar, it should be looking to the possibility of either side in Spain, or any foreigner in Spain, putting a large battery of big mobile howitzers in such a position that you did not know where they were. They would indeed constitute a menace. Therefore, I think it is wise that the House should realise that there is not a real menace to Gibraltar from guns whose position is known. Indeed, guns which are not howitzers and which are so mounted that they command the Straits,

      3063
      as anyone who knows the vicinity of Gibraltar and Tarifa will agree, could not be so trained as to constitute a menace to Gibraltar.
      Reference has been made to the Treaty of Utrecht, and the hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) was quite correct in saying that under the Treaty of Utrecht the Spanish Government have certain responsibilities and liabilities to this country. It has been generally assumed in the Debate to-night that the Government of this country are so asleep that they have forgotten all about the Treaty of Utrecht, but perhaps the House will bear with me if I give an example which shows that this country is not always so asleep as some people imagine. I happened to be in Southern Spain not long after the War, when a large whaling station was to be put up opposite to Gibraltar, not far from Algeciras. In order to build this whaling station it was necessary to obtain the consent of a large number of interests and individuals in Spain, and ultimately the station was erected; but when it came to putting down the large concrete flenching beds upon which the whales were to be hauled in order that they might be cut up, the Government of this country, I understand, at once raised an objection with the Spanish Government under the Treaty of Utrecht, and objected to the building of these concrete emplacements on the ground that they were within gunshot of Gibraltar and might be used for artillery purposes. It is perfectly true, as my right hon. Friend has said, that conditions now, when a civil war is raging in Spain, are obviously such that we must view the matter in some sort of proportion.
      There are in progress between the two sides in Spain military operations which have obviously necessitated precautions being taken by one side or the other to ensure the safety of their troops; but to say that this country is blind to its responsibilities, or negligent of its rights under the old Treaty of Utrecht, is to say something which cannot possibly be borne out by the facts. Nobody deplores more than I do what is going on in Spain, or is more anxious that Gibraltar should remain an inviolate part of the British Empire, but there is, in fact no menace from those guns which are in position there, and the Government are fully alive
      3064
      to their rights under the Treaty of Utrecht. Therefore hon. Members opposite and the country may rest quietly in their beds.
      11.12 p.m.
      Mr. Cerro Jones: The hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) has given us a very soothing speech, but I cannot say he followed the Nelsonian tradition. He put his telescope to the blind eye with a very different idea from that which Nelson had. Neither was I very much convinced by his dissertation on the facts of the position. Speaking also with some experience on these matters, I must say that I was quite unimpressed. Not only to the Rock of Gibraltar are these guns a direct menace, but they are a direct menace to our ships under the shelter of the Rock and also to the shipping which passes through the Straits. We know this is an extremely embarrassing moment, and an extremely embarrassing situation to the Government, but I am not sure that if we had a little more candour we should not get better results with General Franco and with those who are inspiring him.
      There has been incontrovertible evidence in the Press of this country—at any rate, it has not been denied—that these guns have been mounted as part of a deliberate policy of encirclement, and the boastings which come from the foreign Press as to the menace these guns are to Gibraltar and British interests conflict somewhat strangely with the arguments of the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom. He told us a little about the history of Gibraltar. I believe that the last occasion on which the British flag was hauled down on Gibraltar was when Queen Catherine sat on a height overlooking the rock and informed her soldiers that she would not descend until the British flag was hauled down. The Spanish officers, having great confidence in the chivalry of the British officers, sent a message to them, and the British commander said, "We will haul down the flag for an hour, and you must get your queen down." I am not suggesting that the British Government should adopt the same attitude.
      We are entitled to some more explicit assurances than we have received. For example, has any representation been made to the Spanish insurgent commander? If so, has he replied that the matter is outside his control? That is

      3065
      the first question on which the British Government ought to satisfy itself, if only to get at the facts of the situation. If the Spanish commander has so informed the British Government, the House of Commons ought to be informed of the terms of that reply. Nothing is to be gained by this policy of fearing to face up to the truth. In spite of the assurances of the Secretary of State for War that he desired to be frank, and that there was no need for secrecy, the House ought not to be satisfied to leave this matter until it has received direct assurances on this point.
      I want to say a few words on the tactical side mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member. These guns are not all on fixed emplacements. Some are of a calibre which can be moved in a very short time, and with the increasing power of modern high explosive shells they constitute a menace to the shipping of Gibraltar out of all proportion to that we had to face 20 years ago. I hope that the House will not be soothed by what the hon. and gallant Member said.
      Sir A. Southby: Is the hon. Member suggesting that the guns to which he is referring are howitzers?
      Mr. Garro Jones: Yes, there are both howitzers and guns mounted.
      Sir A. Southby: Does the hon. Member not know that howitzers are not so great a menace to ships at sea as other guns?
      Mr. Garro Jones: I know that howitzers are not so great a menace firing at ships, but fired at ships en masse they are a very serious danger, and the hon. and gallant Member knows that as well as I do. If this thing has to be fought out on the strategical and tactical danger to Gibraltar, it cannot be denied that they would greatly embarrass a commander at Gibraltar, and greatly add to the trials which confront our ships and shipping in that area. I notice that the right hon. Gentleman has appointed Major-General Ironside to command Gibraltar, and there is considerable discussion in military circles on whether it is a promotion or otherwise. I suggest that it would solve two problems at once if the right hon. Gentleman were to request Major-General Ironside to take up his duties there at once.
      11.17 p.m.
      Mr. Noel-Baker: The Secretary of State for War has made some very serious admissions, which must be considered against the very serious background of political facts. He tried to excuse the present situation by saying that it is a civil war. There is a civil war in one sense, but everybody, in all quarters of the House, has admitted that there has been for long a foreign invasion. It is months since the Prime Minister wrote a letter to the Noble Lady the Member for Perth and Kinross (Duchess of Atholl) that it was well known that there had been Italian troops in Spain since almost the beginning of the war. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the other day as good as admitted, by not denying, that German reinforcements and armaments were continually arriving in Spain. We know that that is part of the preparation for a general conflict. We know it on the very best authority, because Signor Mussolini has told us so four times in the last six months. He told us on the 31st March in a speech in an Italian paper, he told us on the 14th May at Genoa, he told us in the preface to a book the other day, and in another even more recent pronouncement, that his armies, which he claims to be the most powerful in the world, are ready for a conflict between Fascist Powers and those he called demi-plutocracies. The whole of their armament programme is a preparation for war in which they expect the whole of Europe to be involved.
      With that background, what admissions has the Secretary of State made to-night? He said there are guns on both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar, that they are not Spanish guns, that the batteries on the north side could shell Gibraltar, and that the batteries on the southern side could shell the Straits. I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman cannot seriously believe that these batteries have been mounted in order to be worked against the forces of the Spanish Government. Nobody can believe that for a moment. He prejudiced the whole problem with the very optimism to which my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) paid tribute by saying, "We do not worry, because we are going to do counter-battery work; we have prepared our counter-batteries."
      The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) told

      3067
      us that once you knew the fixed gun and knew the emplacement, it was not so much a menace after all. If that is true, why did you worry about concrete emplacements? Why did our Government make the protest and stop the unhappy Spaniards from doing that?
      Sir A. Southby: They did not stop them from carrying out legitimate whaling operations. They stopped them before the building of the concrete beds actually took place.
      Mr. Noel-Baker: At any rate, they made a protest because they were afraid these might be gun emplacements.
      Sir A. Southby: The hon. Member must not assume that. The protest was made because they did not approach our Government under the Treaty of Utrecht before the concrete beds were put down. When it was explained that they were for whaling operations, the work went forward, because it was not of a military character.
      Mr. Noel-Baker: Unless our Government believed that they might be used for gun emplacements, what reason could they have for making representations? It is simply the modern application of the theory of the Treaty of Utrecht, and a proper application, but the astonishing thing is that the Secretary of State has allowed the same thing to be done in this case, knowing that the emplacements are for guns and not for whaling operations, and no protest has been made. It is all very well to say that you can knock out a gun when you know where it is, but how long does it take to knock out a gun on a reinforced gun emplacement? Long before the guns could be knocked out the British Fleet would be far from Malta, and the dockyard there would be destroyed, and our naval base would have lost its purpose and would have ceased to exist.
      The hon. and gallant Member said that the menace of the mobile gun is even greater. Yet we know there are mobile
      3068
      guns there, and that there are Germans and Italians who have been preparing and putting these guns into position. Faced with that situation, the Government have not yet been able to make a decision as to whether or not this is a violation of the Treaty of Utrecht. They have taken no action whatever. They have made no inquiries, they have made no representations to General Franco or to Italy and Germany, and they have allowed us to be faced with a position in which the naval base at Gibraltar may be rendered entirely valueless and the Straits of Gibraltar may me closed to our traffic.
      The Secretary of State said that there was no need for secrecy in this matter, but he said that he could not tell us anything because he was afraid he would embarrass the sources of his information. We have heard that story much too often. What is the good of having information if you cannot use it. Let us learn. Nobody can tell me that the Secret Service will cease to exist and will not be able to carry on its work if the Secretary of State reveals a few facts which it has been able to assemble. Of course it will be able to carry on its work. Let him tell us what these guns are, where they are placed, where they came from, who put them there, and who are the engineers who did the job. Then let him tell us on Friday, when I hope the matter will be raised again, that the Government have taken the proper political action and drawn the attention of General Franco and the Italian and German Governments to the matter, with an urgent demand that the menace to Gibraltar should cease.
      Mr. A. Henderson: In view of the inability of the Secretary of State to deal with the political issues raised, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment on Friday.
      Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-four Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

COAL INDUSTRY.
  BUNKERING COAL (COMMITTEE).
  BUNKERING COAL (COMMITTEE).
  ACCIDENTS (CONVEYOR FACES).
  ACCIDENTS (CONVEYOR FACES).
  HYDRAULIC MACHINERY, WARWICKSHIRE MINES.
  HYDRAULIC MACHINERY, WARWICKSHIRE MINES.
  PROFITS, LANCASHIRE AND CHESHIRE.
  PROFITS, LANCASHIRE AND CHESHIRE.
  ELECTRICITY IN MINES (ACCIDENTS).
  ELECTRICITY IN MINES (ACCIDENTS).
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (TRADE AGREEMENT NEGOTIATIONS).
  GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (TRADE AGREEMENT NEGOTIATIONS).
  MALARIA PROPHYLACTICS (MANUFACTURE).
  MALARIA PROPHYLACTICS (MANUFACTURE).
  COMMODITIES (SUPPLY).
  COMMODITIES (SUPPLY).
MERCANTILE MARINE.
  TRAMP SHIPPING (JUNIOR OFFICERS SHORTAGE).
  TRAMP SHIPPING (JUNIOR OFFICERS SHORTAGE).
  COASTING TRADE (FOREIGN SHIPS).
  COASTING TRADE (FOREIGN SHIPS).
  LOCATION OF INDUSTRY (COMMITTEE).
  LOCATION OF INDUSTRY (COMMITTEE).
  LEGISLATION BY REFERENCE.
  LEGISLATION BY REFERENCE.
  BOMBING OF BRITISH SHIPS.
  BOMBING OF BRITISH SHIPS.
  SPAIN.
  SPAIN.
  GREAT BRITAIN AND JAPAN.
  GREAT BRITAIN AND JAPAN.
  CZECHOSLOVAKIA.
  CZECHOSLOVAKIA.
  UNIVERSITIES (ENTRANTS FROM GRANT-AIDED SCHOOLS).
  UNIVERSITIES (ENTRANTS FROM GRANT-AIDED SCHOOLS).
BRITISH ARMY.
  RECRUITMENT.
  RECRUITMENT.
  MALARIA PROPHYLACTICS.
  MALARIA PROPHYLACTICS.
  VOCATIONAL TRAINING CENTRE, ALDERSHOT.
  VOCATIONAL TRAINING CENTRE, ALDERSHOT.
  VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS.
  VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS.
  LAND ACQUISITION, WALLINGFORD.
  LAND ACQUISITION, WALLINGFORD.
  NURSES (HOURS OF DUTY).
  NURSES (HOURS OF DUTY).
  EARL JELLICOE AND EARL BEATTY MEMORIALS.
  EARL JELLICOE AND EARL BEATTY MEMORIALS.
  CEYLON.
  CEYLON.
  COLONIES AND NATIVE LABOUR.
  COLONIES AND NATIVE LABOUR.
  TRINIDAD (COMMISSION).
  TRINIDAD (COMMISSION).
SCOTLAND.
  ISLE OF BARRA (SAND ENCROACHMENT).
  ISLE OF BARRA (SAND ENCROACHMENT).
  SLUM CLEARANCE AND OVERCROWDING.
  SLUM CLEARANCE AND OVERCROWDING.
  EMPIRE EXHIBITION.
  EMPIRE EXHIBITION.
  FLYING OVER A CROWD, LONDON.
  FLYING OVER A CROWD, LONDON.
  FUEL RESEARCH.
  FUEL RESEARCH.
AGRICULTURE.
  ALLOTMENTS (ACREAGE STATISTICS).
  ALLOTMENTS (ACREAGE STATISTICS).
  GRASS-DRYING MACHINES.
  GRASS-DRYING MACHINES.
  SOYA BEAN CULTIVATION.
  SOYA BEAN CULTIVATION.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  MOTORING OFFENCES, BATTERSEA.
  MOTORING OFFENCES, BATTERSEA.
  ROAD IMPROVEMENT SCHEMES (RURAL AREAS).
  ROAD IMPROVEMENT SCHEMES (RURAL AREAS).

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, the LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
The Lord Rothschild—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.

TATTON ESTATE BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
BRIGHTON CORPORATION (TRANSPORT) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL (SEWERAGE) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
CANTERBURY GAS AND WATER BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
WORKINGTON CORPORATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
GUILDFORD CORPORATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
LEE CONSERVANCY CATCHMENT BOARD BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BOARD BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
GREEN BELT (LONDON AND HOME COUNTIES) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (RIVERS BOARD AND GENERAL POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
WARRINGTON CORPORATION WATER BILL.
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER (LOUTH DRAINAGE DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, this Money Bill, as your Lordships are aware, is presented to Parliament once a year in order to confirm the Customs Resolutions of the Manx Legislature, and for purposes of a like nature. The Bill is in the usual form and I do not think it is necessary to trouble your Lordships with a speech on it, although I am ready to explain any provision in it should any noble Lord desire me to do so. I beg to move that it be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

YOUNG PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, in moving that the Commons Amendments be now considered perhaps I may be allowed to make a very brief statement of what the Amendments really do. There are no fewer than fifty-four Amendments which have been made in another place, but there is only one point which in any way affects the substance of the Bill. This is in the Amendment in Clause 1, page 1,

1155
line 14, to leave out "two years" and insert "one year," and the consequential Amendments to that. The effect of these Amendments is to reduce from two years to one year after the commencement of the Act the interval before the 44-hour week for persons under sixteen in shops and in the unregulated occupations to which this Bill applies comes into operation. The Government were strongly urged to bring the 44-hour week for persons under sixteen in the unregulated occupations and in shops into force at the end of 1939 instead of at the end of 1940; and as there will be an interval of five months before this Bill comes into operation it is considered that the employers concerned will have sufficient time to make the necessary alterations and adjustments if the 44-hour week for their youngest employees comes into operation one year instead of two years after the commencement of the Act. This will give them a total of seventeen months from now in which to make their arrangements. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I understand that the only Amendment of substance is the one that the noble Earl has just explained to your Lordships, and that the others are drafting. I have been a member of your Lordships' House for a very short time only, but it has been borne in upon me lately that the other Chamber is a revising Chamber just as much as this one. Here your Lordships have a House of Lords Bill, which has passed before the eagle eye of the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie of Thame, the whole force of the Government draftsmen, and all the talent of the Government Front Bench; it has gone to another place, and has come from that revising Chamber containing over fifty Amendments. These are mostly of a drafting nature, I agree, but this is not the only example I could cite in recent weeks of Bills that have come from your Lordships' House having been very largely redrafted in another place. I have ventured to draw the attention of the Government to this matter before. It is either because they have brought in such a spate of small legislative measures that the draftsmen are over-worked, or else the Drafting Department
1156
is not strong enough and needs strengthening. I venture to make that observation in the hope that the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, may perhaps be pleased to look into the matter and make representations in the proper quarters.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, the reason for the greater number of these drafting Amendments is, as your Lordships will remember, that during the Second Reading debate on this Bill there appeared an expression in the Bill, a "designated young person," and the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, said he thought that expression was a most inharmonious expression and asked your Lordships to remove it. That was done, but the other portions of the Bill were not amended to meet the alteration in the wording. This merely alters the Bill to suit the removal of the "designated young person."
LORD STRABOLGI: If I might, by leave of the House, remark upon that statement by the noble Earl: there are a number of stages in which these things may be done here. I am appealing to the pride of your Lordships in this House's efficiency, and in sending down what I should have hoped was perfect legislation as regards its drafting, however imperfect the policy behind it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHANI): My Lords, if I might be allowed to make only one observation in defence of the draftsmen, it is this. Look at the first Amendment of all: line 8, after "whom" insert "this Part of." The other place thought right to put in "this Part of" there, and if you will look down two or three pages, you will find that all these other Amendments are consequent upon those words being inserted. Therefore, although the Amendments look very serious, over twenty of them are consequential on that very slight alteration. That may explain to some extent the number of these Amendments, and exonerate the persons who are responsible for the drafting of this Bill.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
[The references are to Bill No. 212.]
Clause 1, page 1, line 8, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of").
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment, and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 1, line 14, leave out ("two years") and insert ("one year").
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment. Your Lordships recollect that I just now explained the purport of this Amendment, and I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am going to suggest to the House that it might be convenient if a number of these Amendments were taken together in a batch.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 2, line 10, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Page 2, line 17, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Page 2, line 27, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Page 2, line 29, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Page 2, line 35, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Page 3, line 1, alter ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Page 3, line 10, after ("whom") insert (" this Part of ")
Clause 2, page 3, line 33, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 2, page 3, line 40, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 2, page 4, line 3, after ("of") insert ("this Part of").
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in these Amendments. All the remaining Amendments on the first page of this list are drafting and I think it would be for the convenience of your Lordships that they should be moved en bloc.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 4, line 30, leave out ("second") and insert ("first")
1158
Transfer Clauses 3 to 5 of the Bill to line 28 on page 12 (after Clause 13) as Part II of the Bill.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in these two Amendments, which are drafting and consequential upon earlier Amendments which your Lordships have approved.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.— (The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 2, page 3, line 24, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 2, page 3, line 32, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 2, page 3, line 41, after the second ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 2, Page 6, line 6, after the third ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 2, page 6, line 17, after the third ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 7, page 6, line 31, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 7, page 6, line 34, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 7, page 6, line 37, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 8, page 6, line 42, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, all these Amendments are of a drafting nature and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 7, line 2, after ("Registrar-General") insert ("and on payment of a fee of sixpence")
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this Amendment is a Privilege one and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 9, page 7, line 11, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 7, line 20, at end insert—
("(2) The expenses under this Part of this Act of the Common Council of the City of London shall be defrayed out of the genera] rate.
(3) The expenses under this Part of this Act of the council of a county shall be defrayed as expenses for special county purposes.")
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this is a Privilege Amendment and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 10, page 7, line 28, after ("section") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 10, Page 8, line 23, after ("subsection") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 10, Page 8, line 31, leave out from the beginning to ("nothing") in line 32
Clause 10, Page 8, line 32, after ("in") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 10, Page 8, line 39, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 11, page 9, line 9, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 11, page 9, line 11 after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 11, page 9, line 18, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 11, page 9, line 24, after the third ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 12, page 10, line 7, after ("In") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 12, page 10, leave out lines 29 and 30.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, all these Amendments are drafting Amendments and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 12, page 11, line 4, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 12, page 11, line 7, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 12, page 11, line 11, after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 12, page 11, line 54, after ("whom") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 12, page 11, line 22, after ("in") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 12, page 11, line 26, after ("under") insert ("this Part of")
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, these Amendments are also drafting and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 13, page 11, line 29, after the second ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 13, page 11, line 31, after ("of") insert ("this Part of").
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, both these Amendments are drafting and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 11 line 33, after ("burgh") insert ("and any expenses incurred by a county or a town council shall be defrayed in like manner as expenditure for the purposes of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897").
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this is a Privilege Amendment and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 12, line 10 after ("of") insert ("this Part of")
Page 12, line 15, after ("under") insert ("this Part of")
Page 12, line 21, after ("against") insert ("this Part of")
Page 12, line 23, after ("against") insert ("this Part of")
Clause 14, page 12, line 31, at the beginning, insert ("In this Act the expression 'the Shops Acts' means")
Clause 14, page 12, line 31, leave out ("Sections three to five,") and insert "those Acts and Part 11")
Clause 14, page 12, line 34, leave out from ("operation") to the end of line 35, and insert ("on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine").
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, the remaining Amendments are all drafting Amendments and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RATING AND VALUATION (AIR-RAID WORKS) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
RATING AND VALUATION (AIR-RAID WORKS) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (AMENDMENT) (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I may be allowed, before moving the usual Resolution to go into Committee, to make two observations about this Bill which I regret to say escaped my recollection yesterday, when moving the Second Reading. The first is that this Bill is, of course, of considerable importance from a legal point of view, and I ought to have observed to your Lordships that the original scheme of it, and the contents of it, are due to my predecessor in the office of Lord Chancellor. I should like the credit to go where it is deserved and not on this occasion, at all events, to me.
The other remark which I wish to make to your Lordships, and which I ought to have mentioned yesterday but which again slipped my mind at the moment, is that in Clause 3 of the Bill there is contained
1162
a provision of some importance, inserting in a section of the principal Act a paragraph to the effect that
"if after the occurrence at any time of a vacancy among the puisne Judges attached to the Chancery Division the number of those Judges amounts to five, the vacancy shall not be filled unless and until the Lord Chancellor, with the concurrence of the Treasury, advises His Majesty that the state of business in that Division requires that the vacancy should be filled."
I ought certainly to have mentioned that to the House, because it is a matter of some importance to the Chancery Division. There is at the moment a diminution of work in the Chancery Division. That may not last a very long period, and I think there are reasons for supposing that in a very short time there will be an increase of work in that Division, when it will be necessary to fill up the vacancy again. But at the moment it is thought that if there is a vacancy in the number of puisne Judges in the Chancery Division it will not be necessary to fill it. I express my regret that for the moment that slipped my mind. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment.

NAVAL DISCIPLINE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
HOLIDAYS WITH PAY BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS.
LORD DAVIES LORD DAVIES had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government to issue as a White Paper an explanatory statement relating to the defensive agreement recently concluded between His Britannic Majesty and the Government of the French Republic; and to move to resolve, That His Majesty's Government be urged to do its utmost to secure the extension of the agreement so as to bring within its

1163
scope all those nations who are prepared to pool their military resources in a collective force for their common defence and to undertake to secure the settlement of such disputes as may arise between them by recourse to impartial third-party judgment.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name, and in doing so I think I need not offer any apology, because I do not believe that this matter has yet been debated in your Lordships' House. I feel sure that your Lordships will agree that a matter of this importance—the Anglo-French agreement made last April—deserves at any rate the consideration of your Lordships. During the past few days there has been a great demonstration of friendship between the two nations. I am sure your Lordships will rejoice at the enthusiasm which has attended the visit of their Majesties to France, and has thus cemented the bond of friendship which unites the two great democracies of Europe. Before I deal with the Motion on the Paper, may I very briefly allude to Anglo-French relations since the War? During the last twenty years we have witnessed many changes in those relations. Your Lordships will remember that at the conclusion of the War an effort was made to conclude a defensive alliance between France, the United States and Great Britain, which would guarantee the eastern frontier of France against invasion in the future. Your Lordships will also remember that that treaty was not ratified by the United States Congress, and that afterwards the Government of this country also refused to ratify it; and that of course produced at the time a feeling of great disappointment in France.
After that came a period of very strained relations between the two countries following upon the occupation of the Ruhr which, I think your Lordships will agree, was most unpopular in this country. Then came a new phase which culminated in the Geneva Protocol of 1924, when the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary of this country collaborated with M. Herriot and others in drafting the Protocol which was passed by the Assembly at Geneva. Unfortunately that Protocol died a premature death, and the Treaty of Locarno was substituted for it. I venture
1164
to suggest that Locarno was not a real substitute for the 1924 Protocol which, if it had been ratified, would have brought about a great development not only in the structure but in the machinery of the League. The next phase was that which was associated with the Disarmament Conference, which lasted a very long time. At that Conference the French Government on two occasions submitted plans for the constitution of an International Police Force under the auspices and under the control of the League. Both those plans were unfortunately rejected by the Government of this country, and were not proceeded with. I cannot help feeling that as a result of that unfortunate occurrence the people of France, and especially French Ministers, began to wonder whether we really intended to carry out our obligations under Article 16 of the Covenant. They remembered, naturally, the fate of the proposed treaty of alliance at the conclusion of the War, and when they also realised that this country had launched upon a policy of unilateral disarmament they, I think quite naturally, looked to other quarters and endeavoured to secure a policy of reinsurance. With that object in view they made arrangements, or tentative arrangements, with Rome and with Moscow which had a very disastrous effect on French policy at a later date.
With that we come to the Abyssinian crisis, and the partial—only the partial—application of Article 16. I believe that the main reason why Article 16 was only partially enforced was the commitments which M. Laval had made in Rome. As a result, instead of France and this country being solidly in support of the provisions of Article 16, the French Government reversed their traditional policy of sanctions, departed from the proposals which they had put up to the Disarmament Conference, and were mainly responsible for the failure of the policy which we and other countries advocated of putting Article 16 into operation, not only as regards certain economic and financial measures, but in its entirety. After all the vicissitudes which I have mentioned, to-day it seems to me that we find ourselves back in the position in which we were in 1914. After having gone through all these changes and having tried all these experiments, we are once again in the position of having

1165
to conclude what is, in effect, a defensive alliance with France—a policy which we absolutely refused to entertain during the whole of this period.
Had we supported the moral authority of the League and developed Articles 16 and 19, to-day we might have had twenty, thirty, or forty nations solidly behind the system of collective security. Instead of pinning our faith to the League, we unfortunately missed all these opportunities, and now, whether we like it or not, we are compelled to enter into this new agreement with our French neighbours. What is this agreement? We had a statement on April 29 from the Government but that statement, unfortunately, did not tell us very much about this agreement. That has been followed by statements appearing in the Press. As to how much credence we are to attach to these statements, none of us knows. Therefore I should like to appeal, if I may, to the Government to give us an explanatory statement, in the form possibly of a White Paper, in order that the country and your Lordships' House may be made aware of the terms and the general principles upon which this agreement is based.
If I may just refer to one or two of the statements which have appeared in the Press, here is one from The Times, in which it says:
"It was agreed that there should be immediate purchases of armaments and raw materials with a certain amount of pooling of financial resources It was recognised that these measures have given practical definition to the post-Locarno undertakings, particularly in the air. The details of the co-operation and of the purchases are to be worked out by 'the competent experts'—that is, by officers of the two General Staffs.
"A further measure of joint defence would ensure the co-operation of both Air Forces under the command of a British officer, and the co-operation of the Armies under a French officer."
Another statement appeared in the News Chronicle, which says:
"But it appears that the British will pay special attention to the building of heavy bombers and the French to that of pursuit 'planes. Also, there will be far more interchanges of British and French officers so as to spread knowledge of each other's methods."
Then from the New York Times we get this:
"The principle of a unified command, which took three and a half years to be accepted in the stress of the last World War, will be brought into instant operation in the
1166
next. A French General will command the combined Army of the two countries, a British Admiral will direct the allied Navies, and a British air officer will have charge of the combined Air Forces from the time an attack on either country is launched."
As I have already pointed out to your Lordships, we do not know how far these statements which have appeared in the Press are really true, and I suggest to the Government that they might dispel doubts and clarify the whole position if they gave us some more information as to the nature of this agreement. I do not wish to suggest for a moment that they should impart to the public—or to anybody else—facts or information which might be detrimental to the public interest, but I do feel—and your Lordships probably feel too—that more information should be vouchsafed to us than we have hitherto received. What are our commitments under this agreement? I suggest that it would be very disastrous if we are to be left in a position resembling the one in which we found ourselves in 1914. We do not want, surely, to have a repetition of what happened then as regards our precise commitments—whether, for instance, the fact that the military staffs of both countries are working together really means that we are committed in advance to certain military operations.
I also suggest in this connection that there is nothing worse from the public point of view than a feeling of uncertainty, and that it would be far better for us to depart from what in the past has sometimes been described as the traditional policy of this country—sitting on the fence. Let us make known to our own people and to the world precisely where we stand so that, when the day of crisis comes, there may be no misunderstandings or misapprehensions, and so that the course of this country will be quite clear.
The next point to which I would like to draw your Lordships' attention is this. It is said, and has been often said in the past, that it is quite impossible for two sovereign nations to pool their military, their financial, and their economic resources in such a way as to provide for their mutual defence. The technical difficulties, we are told, are so enormous that it is impossible to do so. The technical difficulties for instance of a united command, of munitions, and of finance are supposed to be so immense and so

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insuperable that it is quite impossible to bring about any defensive arrangement in advance of a crisis. If one may believe statements that have been made in the newspapers those difficulties are not insuperable. The fact is they have been surmounted in the case, for instance, of the command of military forces. We know that during the War we were able to secure close co-operation between all the Allied and Associated Powers, and, though it took three and a half years to bring it about, to see the appointment of Marshal Foch as Generalissimo. When that is pointed out people say: "Yes, it is quite possible to do that under the stress and strain of war, but it is quite impossible to do it in peace time." If what the newspapers suggest is correct, then I submit it is possible even in time of peace to organise defensive arrangements and to constitute some kind of international peace.
If that is possible for two sovereign countries, why not for three or four or any number who are willing to pool their resources and join in a scheme of this kind? Why is it not possible for Members of the League to join in an arrangement of this kind? I want to suggest to your Lordships this afternoon that the scope of the Anglo-French agreement should be extended, and that we should invite other law-abiding countries, and other countries who are also menaced, to join in constituting a collective force in order to deter any other country from engaging in war. I know it is often said that the small nations are really of very little account, that their military and other resources are so slender that they should not be brought into the picture at all. As a matter of fact that is not so. The twenty-two European small nations, for contributions towards the maintenance of the League, were assessed at 301 units, while the four great Powers, Germany, France, Italy and ourselves were assessed at 337 units, so that your Lordships will observe that so far as potential resources go in men, in wealth and so on, the four great Powers are only just a little ahead of the twenty-two small Powers in Europe.
It will be asked: "But what about their military resources?" I believe that during the past few years all the small nations in Europe have joined in the rearmament race, and they have already spent a considerable
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amount of money in increasing their military forces. From 1932 to 1937 their expenditure increased by 43·9 per cent., and so far as one arm is concerned, the air arm, the number of aeroplanes under the control of fifteen European countries amounts to somewhere between 5,000 and 6,000 fighting aircraft. The point I wish to make is that we cannot regard the resources of the smaller nations as negligible. In fact those nations constitute at this moment the balance of power in Europe. A great deal depends on how they throw their resources into the scale and whether they are willing to do so before and not after a crisis arises in order to increase the deterrent effect and to endeavour to prevent war from breaking out at all. We remember that during the Great War many of these small Powers were dragged in on one side or the other. We did our best to get as many of them as possible to come in on our side, and the Central Powers did the same. Those who were not dragged in remained in a state of neutrality, and they had to undergo very great hardships in consequence of the War. Therefore, it would appear that the best policy for these twenty-two smaller nations is to make up their minds now and not wait till the crisis comes; to try and act in unison in order to assist in preventing another war from breaking out.
In this connection perhaps your Lordships will allow me to quote from a speech which Mr. Churchill made a short time ago in Manchester and in which he dealt with this particular point. This is what he said:
"Britain and France are now united. Together they are an enormous force, which few countries would dare to challenge. I should like to see these two countries go to all the smaller States that are menaced, and say to them bluntly: 'We are not going to help you if you are not going to help yourselves. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to contribute? Are you prepared to take special service in defence of the Covenant? If you are willing to do so and prove it by actions as well as words, then we will join together in active military association with you.'"
The first thing I venture to suggest to the Government is that they should try to enlarge the scope of this agreement with France so as to include as many of the small countries as are willing to join in a defensive agreement of this kind.
But I do not suggest that we should stop merely at a defensive alliance. What

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I think your Lordships desire, and what I think the vast majority of the people in this country desire, is to see the rule of law established in Europe. We want to see a new system, one which is not exclusive as a military alliance is exclusive, but one which is open to every country to join. Then it is quite clear that any country which does join in an attempt to establish the rule of law must be willing to do two things. First of all, it must be willing to submit itself to a procedure for the peaceful settlement of all disputes which cannot be settled by negotiation and conciliation and through the existing machinery of the League. It must also be willing to pool its resources and to join in setting up some definite organisation which will enable it to uphold the rule of law. Surely these two things are vital, because in the first place unless we have a watertight procedure for the settlement of disputes it is impossible to brand the aggressor. Obviously the system is not directed against any country or any group of countries. It is only directed against the aggressor and in order to make sure who the aggressor really is we must have some body, some tribunal, some procedure which can settle all disputes. It is quite clear also that any country which ignores that procedure and resorts to war and attacks its neighbour is the aggressor. That is the simple test which is applied in our own country in our own Common Law, and I venture to suggest that it is also the test which should be applied to nations.
Therefore it means that Article 19 should be supplemented, should be extended and should be implemented. Some of us suggest for want of something better an Equity Tribunal, which is the hall mark, or one of the hall marks, of the new system. Would it not be possible—I venture to make this suggestion in all sincerity to the Government—to include in the Anglo-French agreement the setting up of some tribunal of this kind, or of some peaceful procedure so that any dispute which might arise between us and France in the future would be automatically sent to such tribunal if we could not settle it by negotiation round the table? Probably many of us are old enough to remember the Fashoda incident which very nearly landed us in a war with France. Things have changed vastly since those days, but I cannot help feeling that at this
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moment, when there is this wonderful feeling of friendship with our neighbour across the Channel, we should supplement this Anglo-French agreement by substituting some definite procedure and setting up if necessary the actual tribunal for the settlement of disputes. If we do that, then France and ourselves become the pioneers of what I have tried to describe as the rule of law. We can then with all confidence invite all countries to participate in the extension of this agreement.
I should not despair that ultimately—not at the moment—Germany and Italy might be willing to participate in such a system. Once a tribunal has been established there is the appropriate machinery for remedying the grievances under which we understand Germany thinks she is suffering. I think we might also anticipate that a number of what I have tried to describe as the smaller Powers would come in at the outset. Many of them of course are very sore and many are very suspicious after all the events which have happened at Geneva during the last two years, but even at the outset I believe a number of these smaller countries might be willing to come into an arrangement of that kind, although they would be very chary of coming into any defensive alliance. After all, there were fifty-eight nations at Geneva which joined in the imposition of sanctions and five Mediterranean countries, when a questionnaire was sent out asking whether they would come to the assistance of this country if it were attacked, answered in the affirmative.
LORD STRABOLGI: Including Spain.
LORD DAVIES: Five answered in the affirmative at that time. Therefore, I imagine, there are some—I do not suggest all at the moment—of the smaller nations in Europe who might be willing to join in an agreement of that kind if it were established on the basis of the rule of law. What are the alternatives? May I suggest to your Lordships that really we are living internationally in a complete state of anarchy. Each country in fact is a law unto itself. We cannot emancipate ourselves from that anarchical state until we have in some way brought the armaments race to an end. So long as the armaments race continues we are always in danger of being precipitated into war. Rearmament, I suggest, is no remedy of itself. I have supported, as I

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imagine most of your Lordships have supported, the policy of rearmament. I always felt that unilateral disarmament was a complete failure and would never give us any security. And I do not think we can place any great reliance upon defensive alliances. I grant that they are better than nothing, but defensive alliances did not prevent us from being hurled into war in 1914 and I do not believe they will do so in the future.
I gather that in some quarters it is suggested that there should be a Four-Power Pact. That reminds me of the Holy Alliance and of Castlereagh's Quadruple Alliance after the Napoleonic Wars. I imagine that a Four-Power Pact would really not help us very much. It would probably be directed towards plundering the smaller countries of the world, and that reminds me of a quotation from William Penn, who, when he was discoursing on this theme two or three hundred years ago, said the national sovereignties
"are as they were, for none of them now have any sovereignty over one another "—
we have proposed a United States of Europe—
"and if this be called a lessening of their power, it must be only because the great fish can no longer eat up the little ones, and that each sovereignty is equally defended from injuries, and disabled from committing them."
That, surely, is what we all desire to do, and I cannot help feeling that to suggest that a Four-Power Pact is going to be a substitute for the League of Nations is an entirely wrong policy and one that can only lead in the end straight to war.
After all, your Lordships will remember that at the last Election the Government were returned to office because they had assured the people of this country that they stood solidly behind the Covenant. At Geneva Sir Samuel Hoare, who was then our Foreign Secretary, said: "We have stood behind the Covenant in its entirety." That was the slogan that the Conservative Party launched at the last Election. I appeal to those of your Lordships who represent the Government in this matter that they should be true to their principles and not go back on the mandate which they received from the people of this country. We should endeavour, instead of concluding bilateral agreements and departing from the principle of the Covenant, to
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go back to the League and endeavour to carry out our responsibilities and obligations under it.
I am sorry that I have detained your Lordships much longer than I had intended, and therefore I must bring my remarks to a close. But before I sit down, may I venture to remind your Lordships that, after all, the great problem which we have to face, and which every country in Europe has to face, at this moment is whether we are going to try to develop the principle of federalism—because, after all, the League is an experiment in federalism—and whether we are going to endeavour to promote a policy which has been reiterated by every Foreign Minister and every Prime Minister since the War? What was that policy? That the League was the keystone of our foreign policy. I have always understood that we endeavoured in this country to maintain a continuity in our foreign policy. I venture to suggest that the continuity at which we ought to aim is that we should make the League, not only in our speeches but also in our acts and in our policy, the great objective, without which we cannot expect to have peace in Europe. If we do that, I believe that we shall have the moral support of the people of the United States, which in the day of trouble would be very valuable for us. We should also probably receive the benevolent neutrality, if not the armed assistance, of the Russian Republic. Therefore I would once more plead with the Government that we should endeavour so to develop that agreement which they have concluded with our friends and neighbours that it may become a steppingstone to the re-establishment of the prestige and authority of the League of Nations. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That His Majesty's Government be urged to do its utmost to secure the extension of the defensive agreement recently concluded between Hi-Britannic Majesty and the Government of the French Republic, so as to bring within its scope all those nations who are prepared to pool their military resources in a collective force for their common defence, and to undertake to secure the settlement of such disputes as may arise between them by recourse to impartial third-party judgment.—(Lord Davies.)
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Davies has introduced a Motion which comes at a very appro-

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priate moment, when there are urgent problems for which his policy should provide. No doubt he would welcome a little discussion on the application of his plans to an urgent problem. I think the public will see in his proposal a policy for the extremely urgent question at the moment, the Czechoslovak question. His Motion raises that question in another way than by its general policy. It deals with our agreement with France, and the importance to us of that agreement with France arises specially from the French alliance with Czechoslovakia. It seems to me relevant and important to test the policy by its application to a practical case. How does the plan meet the urgent case that is in all our minds? It is a policy of collective defence and of third-party settlement, and that is the principle of the Covenant to which we all adhere. It is unquestionably sound, if the case is a clear enough case to which it can be applied.
But I would suggest that my noble friend's policy requires qualification, because there are peculiar cases in which something further is required, and we are, I think, in the presence of such a case. My noble friend advances an Equity Tribunal, but no such court is in existence to meet the needs of the hour, and an ad hoc court would have to be founded. Again, his policy is one of utilising the machinery of the League. Unfortunately, League procedure is rejected by one State closely concerned with the problem of the moment. Germany has no confidence in any machinery of the League. That is a great disaster, but events have made it inevitable. The League has been used partially, as a tool of the Allies, on many occasions, in such a way that we cannot contemplate the reference to the League, which is provided under the Covenant already without any such new machinery as my noble friend suggests. It is not available, definitely, at the moment.
There is another peculiar feature which I think would require further machinery. The Czechoslovak question is an extremely delicate one. It is not a legal dispute. Germany is not claiming under the Minority Treaties; that would be a proper case for legal decision. Nor is she asking for any revision of frontiers; that would arise under Article 19. Ill-feeling has arisen from an internal question of the Czechoslovak State, and legally that is entirely a matter for the sovereignty of
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Czechoslovakia. But equitably the Sudeten Germans deserve redress, and on political grounds peace is endangered by the situation. That again is not a case for a court of equity. Therefore the case is not met in this particular instance by Lord Davies's proposal.
There is another reason why I would urge that something else is required. The case we are thinking of is one of extreme urgency. Mediation under an equity system might take months, and it would be very dangerous to emuloy a prolonged procedure. Unpremeditated incidents might produce violence. Indeed we are in constant danger of such an incident from day to day, and it would be monstrous to allow events to drift into war when conditions are there which make a settlement possible. For instance, Germany is not asking for an Anschluss or for a plebiscite. Czechoslovakia is not denying that great changes are needed. Neither side wants war, and Germany knows that England and France are firmly opposed to violence. All the time delay is very dangerous, and therefore I welcome the news that we have to-day, that His Majesty's Government are taking action, as we understand, in the way of sending Lord Runciman to act as special adviser to the Czechoslovak Government. It seems to me better than third-party treatment of the question. The policy that we suppose lies behind Lord Runciman's visit commends itself very much to me. If such a policy should fail, then still I do not think that third-party treatment would be the most appropriate. I think that diplomatic negotiation would be the next desirable step—negotiations between ourselves and France, and also Germany. An equity court might be brought in in the final resort, but it is better, surely, if the case never comes into court.
The policy associated with Lord Runciman's visit—perhaps one might call it a policy of direct assistance—is the better way of avoiding war, but if we are to have war at all there are two particular facts that I would bring to your Lordships'attention. A large part of the public has not reflected on them. The first is that if such a catastrophe occurred the British public could not be given any clear moral appeal for support and intervention. The defence of Belgium was a straightforward and simple call of honour, which the public perfectly under-

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stood, but if Czechoslovakia had refused adequate autonomy, and war followed, opinion in this country would certainly be divided as to where the blame for aggression lay. The Dean of St. Paul's voiced a very large section of public opinion the other day when, in a letter to The Times, he said that we have fought one war for the cause of self-determination, and he could not understand that we might be called upon to fight another to prevent it. That is a fact which would arise.
Another point, which I had not thought of, was brought to my notice by an old diplomatist. It is this: if we won such a war, after the ruin of half the world, what sort of settlement should we make? We should have the power to restore Czechoslovakia to her present state. If we restored it we should create a position such as exists at present, from which another war would follow. If we decided not to restore it, but made such a settlement as most people wish we had made in 1919, not involving a race of disaffected people within the frontiers of that State, but giving an autonomous system to those people, we should be doing exactly what we had fought the war to prevent. If such an insane war were to occur it is we and the French and other nations who would have to pay the piper. I suggest that in this case, without waiting for the third-party treatment which the noble Lord desires, the principle to follow is that it is we who should call the tune.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, as the Leader of the House explained yesterday evening, my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has been in correspondence with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and has reached an understanding with him under which it was agreed that my noble friend should reply to Lord Davies's speech during the course of a comprehensive statement that he hopes to make tomorrow on the general situation in foreign affairs on the Motion of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. By that time he will have had the opportunity of studying the observations of the noble Lord, and those of Lord Noel-Buxton. In those circumstances I
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shall refrain from saying anything with regard to the subject matter that has been discussed this afternoon. I hope that that arrangement will he agreeable to your Lordships, and that consequently my noble friend opposite will be prepared to withdraw his Resolution.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for his remarks, and I ask leave to withdraw my Motion, in view of the discussion which is to take place to-morrow.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

QUACK MEDICINE TRADE.
LORD HORDER LORD HORDER rose to call attention to the enormous growth in the quack medicine trade, and to the incongruity of exercising no control over the deleterious effects of such trade upon health at a time when a serious effort is being made to improve national fitness; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I make no apology for asking your consideration of a subject which may seem to be of very much less importance than the one which has just engaged your Lordships' House. It may be thought that my topic is rather a hardy annual, but I assure your Lordships that the question of quack medicines in relation to the health of the public is not really so much a hardy annual as, in my judgment, a pernicious growth.
I would like at the outset to state that when I suggested dealing with this subject the first objection raised by my friends was that I should have vested interests heavily against me—the vested interests, that is to say, of newspapers and their proprietors, the large Press agencies, and those who own hoardings and posters, for it is becoming more and more obvious that the head and front of the offence in the matter of quack medicines is not the medicine but the advertisement, so often grossly misleading if not actually fraudulent. I want to deal with this question of opposition at once. I want to tell your Lordships that so far from their offering any signs of opposition I have received both help and encouragement from the reputable members of those groups that I have mentioned. For very decency's sake and a sense of duty these people are themselves taking steps to exercise a degree of control and censorship which in

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other countries responsible authorities impose. I have received assurances on this matter from the Proprietary Association of Great Britain, the Newspaper Society, the Advertising Association, the Periodical Proprietors' Association, and the Institute of Incorporated Practitioners in Advertising.
The second point I want to make at the outset is this. Seeking again for advice from all authorities in any way connected with this subject, of course I was warned that "They will say that if you as a doctor raise this subject you will be charged with trying to create a monopoly for your colleagues; you will be charged with depriving the poorer classes of cheap cures to the efficacy of which they constantly testify." Now as to this question cat creating a monopoly, may I state, what I believe to be true, that if there be a monopoly it lies with the trade, which at a cost of nearly as much as the total money spent on the whole of our hospital services, bleeds the public to the tune of between £25,000,000 and £30,000,000 a year? I am seeking to break this unscrupulous monopoly, a monopoly which successive Governments seem almost to have gone out of their way jealously to guard; witness the exclusion of patent and proprietary medicines and food from the otherwise excellent Food and Drugs Bill which is about to become law.
Now as to the position of the doctor. I feel sure that were my friend and colleague the noble Viscount here he would agree with me that if the doctor thought only in terms of hard cash in this matter he would actually benefit from this unprincipled trade. The doctor has eventually more patients because of this trade, and not fewer. Especially would the surgeon benefit, for cases become serious in proportion as diagnosis and treatment are delayed. Ultimately even the undertaker benefits sooner and oftener than he might. Well, in striving to cleanse this Augean stable I am not acting in the interests of doctors, I am acting in the interests of that section of the public which is least able to stand up against exploitation—poorer people, who can less afford to lose money on health than any other section of the nation, and the straitened middle classes. People who are better off, but not perhaps less foolish, can afford to pay for any damage which their adventures into quack medicines may incur.
The third objection with which I propose to deal is expressed by the folk who say: "It is all very well to be destructive, but if the citizen does not send his coupon for his lung cure, and if he does not get his diagnosis by post for his kidney trouble, and if he does not get his gastric ulcer healed with a patent powder, what is there for the poor citizen to do?" And that brings me to perhaps the most important point that I have to put before your Lordships. I submit that now—perhaps only now—we have something infinitely better to put in the place of these extremely dubious specifics. We have now available to the poorest everywhere one of the finest health services in the world, and the slogan "Use your health services" was one of the most intelligent slogans I have ever heard. Health services, constantly expanding health insurance services—these, I submit, are what the Government can and must now encourage people to put in the place of this mediaeval witch-doctoring.
There are clear and abundant reasons why the present chaotic state of the law in relation to quack medicines should come to an end. In your Lordships' House and in another place from time to time for the past twenty odd years unanswerable arguments have been advanced in this connection. My main reason for pressing the Motion for Papers at this time is my deep concern for the success of the concerted move that we are making towards national fitness. By "fitness" I do not mean muscular supremacy, I mean health as a basis for good citizenship and happiness. So men and women of all Parties are converging on this objective. They are all of them genuinely moved with the desire to help. On the platform where the campaign for national fitness was launched there sat men and women of all Parties. That was good. I suggest that anything directly bearing upon the basic health and happiness of the people is outside Party politics. I know from the support I have received during the past few days, when it was known that I was going to put this subject before your Lordships, that it is commonly felt that in the realm of Party politics there is no room for this question of how we should keep the nation fit.
The incongruity to which I refer in the wording of my Notice is apparent to everyone. On the one hand, His Majesty's

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Government have launched a campaign to improve the national physique, have recruited all of us whose business it is to know something about health, have set aside subsidies for the purpose of education and demonstration in regard to fitness, and have spent quite a lot of money in health propaganda. Then, on the other hand, we have this campaign of quack medicines and food, totally uncombated so far by His Majesty's Government, but led by very subtle and skilled generals, bent upon maintaining national ill-health, moral and physical, in order to have a ready market for their goods. For every hundred pounds that the Government spend on making people health-conscious quack medicine-mongers spend a thousand in making them disease-conscious. We are trying to teach people the meaning of nutrition, and the money they might spend on food they are spending on quack medicines, or on very poor substitutes for good food. These are the considerations which led me to bring this subject before your Lordships. We have recently witnessed what financial friends assure me was a most necessary and, they thought, creditably expeditious effort to limit the evil called share-pushing. Well, it seems to me that if the State so rightly protects its less wary citizens against financial sharks, protects their property, that is, it should not regard it as less important to take some steps to protect their health from wanton damage.
I spoke of the extent of the trade in quack medicines and of how our people spend nearly £30,000,000 annually on them, an amount which is almost the same as the sum required to maintain all the voluntary and municipal hospitals in the country. A famous group of patent and proprietary medicine vendors, catering chiefly for nervous and digestive disorders, has just budgeted for a sum of nearly £1,000,000 for Press advertisements alone during the current year. This particular group covers some sixteen preparations, if we exclude shampoos and dog and cat medicines. I see that it is about to buy the control of some six to ten more preparations. The profits on the deferred shares have risen from £40,000 to £280,000 in the past six years. In 1931 the price of the 5s. shares stood at 5s. 7d., and in each of the past three years these shares have risen to above £3. These
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figures give some indication of the lucrative nature of the concern and of the great expansion of the quack medicine trade. No wonder the board of this company thought it a wise thing to make a large donation to one of the London hospitals. I am unable to inform your Lordships if the donation was earmarked for the treatment of patients who had doctored themselves with the company's medicines!
If this were a clean trade, and if people merely spent their money on it foolishly, that would be no matter for criticism, certainly not in this connection. But what is it that is sold and bought? A few patented and proprietary things are good things, and the claims made for them, as claims go, are not unreasonable. A good many things that do little or no good and little or no harm are sold at fantastic prices. But now and again something is sold that does definite harm—not often, because, as your Lordships are aware, an inquest is a thing that puts some of these people out of business more quickly than anything else, and for that reason dangerous drugs are as a rule avoided. All the same, there is nothing in law to prevent a vendor in this country from trading in some new drug not as yet on the poison schedule and concerning which experience of its action is required to discover the danger. In other words, the public is made the guinea pig, as it were, of the unscrupulous vendor.
But there is an enormous number of preparations which are fraudulent in the degree of the advertisement—fraudulent in the claims they make and very fraudulent in the way in which these claims change without any change in the nature of the specific, so called. The public is becoming slowly aware that certain diseases like cancer and hernia—rupture—are not cured by drugs, and the advertiser is quick to realise this. So disease conditions which are, for any reason, in the public mind are made the means of selling the same old goods. For example, the subject of malnutrition is topical just now, and a number of preparations formerly advertised to cure quite different conditions are now advertised as a cure for malnutrition. A spate of new preparations arises claiming to do the samething. The subject of vitamins having become somewhat popular, you will find that quite a large proportion of the quack medicine advertisements to-day claim

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that they contain "all the vitamins necessary for health."
Food substitutes are advertised in large quantity. There is no substitute for good food, unless it be better food. Some of us have quite recently become rather anxious about the prevalence of rheumatic disease in this country, and straightway the quack medicine vendors orientate their advertisements in our direction. In short, the more these things change, the more they are the same thing. Advertising, as your Lordships know, has become a specialised profession. The maker of quack medicine need no longer rack his own brains as to how best to overcome any reluctance the public may have in spending. He hands the matter over to the advertising specialist, together with a large sum—the larger the better—which has been appropriated for this purpose, and the thing is "put across the public," as they say. There is a rake-off for the manufacturer, a rake-off for the advertising agent, and of course a rake-off for the newspaper in addition. When we remember the enormous increase in the media through which advertisement operates—newspapers, omnibuses, hoardings, wireless, and aeroplanes now—we begin to realise also the appalling results which this mass suggestion must eventually have upon the country's health and morale. These advertisements have become a much gniver danger than the medicines they sell. Fear is the chief emotion they rely upon, so that much of this trade is, in effect, a huge form of blackmail. It is all very well to "vet" the medicine and reject its advertisement if harmful, which is claimed by some responsible newspaper proprietors, but there is poison in the advertisement. Nobody seems to "vet" the advertisements except a few papers, and let us pay them all credit for that.
This picture that I am showing of the operating theatre, with the surgeon and nurses in their masks, says:
"Buy our invaluable ointment and you will escape operation, and the result is guaranteed."
There is this other picture of a strong acid burning a hole in the carpet, which says:
"This is what is happening inside your stomach when it pains you. Take our tablets and you can eat anything."
Then there is this diagram of a circle, a very considerable part of which is
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coloured on the poster to represent the proportion of nourishment in a certain meat juice. The representation is a lie because the stuff is mainly, as we term it, extractives, which are not nourishing, salts, and colouring matter, and the actual food value is almost negligible. "Of course everyone takes a laxative," says one advertisement, "so why not ours?" And the wretched man who does not take a laxative begins to wonder if he can possibly be well without it. "Four out of five have pyorrhœa," which is not true, says another advertisement. But the chances are so heavily loaded against the reader that the goods sell. Then these questionnaires, how subtle they are! Imagine a sensitive woman reading these questions:
"Do you cry too easily? Do you ever get fits of dizziness? Are you often in fear of illness or breakdown? Have you ever been told you are anæmic? Are you extra-sensitive about what others say? If 'Yes' is your answer to any of these questions, this is a sign of dangerous weakness. Take it in time. You should begin with our tablets right away."
So I might go on almost endlessly. It is perhaps because some of our Continental friends have been reading our advertisement pages that they think that Britain has become decadent.
This of course is, in the language of the street, a ramp. It is not only demanding money with menaces, it is coining money out of the fears of the people. And it is not only the sick that are swindled, the well are swindled—for by what other word can we rightly stigmatise the deliberate promotion of credulity for the purpose of gain? I do not think that your Lordships can look at the advertisement columns of even the newspapers which I feel certain some of you take in the morning and feel easy about the situation. In Continental countries this pernicious exploitation is forbidden. It is forbidden in the United States, in our own Dominions of Australia and Canada there are heavy penalties for making false and fraudulent claims, and even in South Africa last year a Bill was introduced whose terms were based on the recommendations of the Select Committee of this country of 1914. It is humiliating to think that Great Britain remains complacent in face of this menace to the health of her citizens.
I said just now that the manufacturer got a rake off, that the advertiser got a

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rake off, and the newspaper got a rake off. Well, the Government get a rake off, and it is sometimes thought that this fact prevents legislation. I cannot think that that is a very powerful preventive of legislation in this country, because, all said and done, the Chancellor only nets £1,000,000 per annum out of this sordid business. Of course, he could make much more, because he does not even take the trouble to see that these gentlemen—save the mark !—are evading the Medicine Tax Act in the grossest manner. The Medicine Tax Act of 1812 is still in operation, and a few years ago the High Court described this Act as a mass of confused and obsolete verbiage. To quote only one anomaly, taxes are levied only on drugs if they are advertised as a cure for ailments; and so cough medicines and pills for backache are taxed, but chest mixtures and kidney pills are exempt.
It is nearly fifty years since a Royal Commission stated that the India opium revenue was morally indefensible, and within a month of the presentation of its Report Parliament approved. Well, there is the Report of the Select Committee on Patent Medicines. There are at least two copies of this compendious document, because I see the noble Viscount has a copy. But, although so compendious and apparently unwieldy, it represents an enormous amount of very useful work. The Committee sat under the Chairmanship of Sir Henry Norman, but its Report was so ill-fated as to be printed on that tragic day, August 4, 1914. But that is twenty-four years ago, and the Committee's recommendations, simple though they were—registration, disclosure, censorship of advertisements, were all the recommendations asked—have never been implemented. Why were we so prompt to protect the Chinaman and why are we so dilatory in protecting our own citizens? Yet my analogy is fairly close, because, if I may paraphrase a famous saying, "Quack medicines are the opium of our people.'
What is the remedy? With the best intentions, for which I give the reputable newspapers every credit, no censorship of their own will ever effectually deal with this nuisance. This voluntary effort has been on trial for more than twenty years, and things are much worse than they were. If we except the case of a few select papers, then the breathless, cutthroat
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race for advertisers, the struggle for clients, will determine the issue against them. It cannot be otherwise. If only one paper outside the controlled area refuses to obey a code—and there are many outside the controlled area—then the difficulty in such a case becomes insuperable. It is like people who want to be good but starve if they are good. Central or Government control would tighten up the situation at once. Now it may surprise your Lordships, but I am able to say that the people who might be expected to know, that is the owners of large newspaper combines, support me in this contention. I have letters, quite a number, from noble Lords to this effect, and they agree with me that the evil must be attacked at its source. I take it that when noble Lords wish me luck having read the wording of the Notice, and when noble Lords say "I am entirely with you," then they mean what they say. Now these papers which are trying to-day, but trying unsuccessfully, to control the grosser forms of exploitation of their readers would by some central control be protected and not penalised, which at present they are.
The noble Lord, Lord Southwood, who is President of the British Advertising Association, tells me that an important department of this Association devotes its efforts to the elimination of advertisements of undesirable products. Yet as an example of how impossible it is to carry out this good intention in practice, here is an advertisement of Yadil in this week's John Bull and it is fourteen years ago that Yadil was so thoroughly exposed in three successive issues of the Daily Mail that its sale was entirely stopped. This was the stuff, some of your Lordships may remember, that did not contain the harmless ingredient which it was alleged to contain, but it contained one per cent. of formalin, an intense irritant, of which it made no mention. True, the figure "1935," in brackets, appears now after the name Yadil. This may mean something, or it may mean nothing.
The point is that this monster is hydra-headed, and it can only be destroyed by being strangled at its birth. Now it is only fair to admit that a few things have been done since 1914, and they are to the good. The Venereal Diseases Act made it an offence to advertise medicines for venereal disease, and the very success of this veto shows that measures of this

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kind are both practicable and effective. Then there were the Pharmacy and Poisons Act, the Dangerous Drugs Act, and the Therapeutic Substances Act; but good though all these laws are, I submit that, taken together, they do not touch the real problem which I am presenting to your Lordships to-day. In the Food and Drugs Bill, to which your Lordships have recently given a good deal of thought and time, there was a great opportunity of dealing with this pest, instead of which quack medicines are specifically exempted from any penalties under that measure, an exemption which renews automatically the exemption that was made in the previous Food and Drugs Act of 1928. In Part I of the new Bill Clause 4 deals with defences available in proceedings taken under the Bill. Subsection (3) contains the words "where the food or drug in question is the subject of a patent in force," and subsection (5) reads:
"that the article supplied was a proprietary medicine and was supplied in response to a demand for that medicine."
In short, no action could succeed under that measure if it were attempted.
When the noble Lord, Lord Mamhead, introduced a powerful deputation on this matter to the Minister of Health in July, 1935, Sir Kingsley Wood, in his reply, said:
"I should like to see something in this direction. I have indicated that I have never understood why we have never come to such an agreement as has been arrived at in other countries. It was left to be considered in relation to the Government's general programme of legislation."
Now, when it is clear that the Government's general programme of legislation did make that possible, the whole subject is side tracked. A record of the Bills that have been introduced in your Lordships' House and in the House of Commons since 1920 makes very gloomy reading. I do not propose to take up the time of your Lordships' House by dealing with them. They have generally died of that common disease, lack of Parliamentary facilities, though in one or two cases I would suggest that a more accurate explanation of death would be felo de se. On the last occasion the failure of the Bill in the House of Commons was attributed to its having had the bad luck to be introduced on the day of the Grand National.
There does appear to be a hoodoo resting upon Private Bills dealing with this matter. I earnestly trust that your Lordships will support me in the efforts I am making to persuade His Majesty's Government to tackle it by a Government measure. The machinery would be easily forthcoming. My friend and colleague who now has charge of the Ministry of Health must by virtue of his training and experience have exceptional knowledge of the whole of this subject, and must be more fully alive perhaps than some of his predecessors in this responsible office to the importance of this matter. I cannot but hope that when in a letter to me recently he spoke of certain matters crying out for immediate attention, he had this one amongst them in his mind. I believe that he would have the opinion of the country behind him and I think I have good reasons also for believing that the Press as a whole would support him. A Bill dealing with this would be a most fitting corollary to the efforts that we are all making for national fitness. It would demonstrate clearly to the world that His Majesty's Government are really serious in regard to their health campaign. It would close a wide gap in our defences, a gap which is increasing month by month and through which at the moment the enemy is pouring and spreading havoc amongst our people. Once behind the lines there is no limit to the damage which this particular enemy can do. I beg to move for Papers in this matter.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, you will perhaps excuse me if I bring the lighter artillery of the lay voice to the support of the big guns of the medical profession which you have heard and I believe are going to hear on this subject. A few days ago I was entertained to see in an American newspaper a picture depicting the private office in a large advertising firm into which an employee of the firm comes holding a piece of paper, waving it with enthusiasm and saying "This will make these hypochondriacs sit up." That may have its humorous side, and the hypochondriac perhaps does not get much sympathy, but I think the trouble goes further than that. I think it comes fairly near home to all of us. I imagine that there are very few members of your Lordships' House who are unaware of what is meant by halitosis. I think your Lordships' fathers would have been ignorant of this unfortunate thing,

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which their dearest friends apparently would not have told them about. They would have criticised everything else, from the length of their noses to their intelligence, but apparently something was hidden from them. That, I think, was one of the earliest cases of which the noble Lord, Lord Horder, has spoken, but advertisers have gone to far greater lengths since then, and I think far more dangerous lengths.
I have seen recently a number of advertisements of the same type, but which appeal rather to the emotions of people. They have pretended, shall we say, that a young woman's failure in her love affair may be due to some defect which a preparation which is to be sold can cure. They suggest that a husband's failing interest in his wife may be due to something of the same sort. I suggest to your Lordships that to people in this unhappy condition it is a crime that additional sorrows should be added unto them and that their money should be extracted from their pockets for such a purpose and at such a time. In fact I suggest that these modern advertised products are the present-day equivalent of the old love philter. It is now, I believe, illegal to sell love philtres, though from the sale of these preparations one suspects that they would have the rich market which they used to have.
The noble Lord, Lord Horder, has dealt, as of course he can far better than I can, with the details of the damage done by these medicines and with the measures which can be and should be taken to prevent them. I would, however, like to suggest that the recommendations of the 1914 Committee in one respect at any rate did not go far enough. They suggested the registration of preparations and disclosure to a Government Department of their contents. I cannot think that there is any reason why this disclosure should not be absolutely public. I would suggest, in view of the experience which we have now of the extraordinarily abstruse and incomprehensible nature of disclosure of contents—which is made in many cases incidentally to avoid the Government tax—of secret remedies, that there should be a legal obligation to make them in a form which is generally accepted by the medical profession, so that there should not be any misunderstanding
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as to what is contained in any preparation that is sold. It will, of course, be said that that would not affect a great many of the public, who would be unable, even if they knew the nature of the actual drugs in a preparation, to judge for themselves of the efficacy of those drugs. That is true, but a purchaser would always be able to consult his medical practitioner or the chemist from whom he bought it as to the value of a particular drug.
The noble Lord rightly repelled the suggestion that members of the medical profession have any personal or financial interest in the repression of this trade. The medical profession has, I think, shown a really admirable attitude since the eighteenth century in forbidding to members of the profession the use of secret remedies and insisting on publication. Nevertheless I think that something might be clone by the medical profession itself in co-operation with the educational authorities. I suggest to the noble Lord who moved this Motion to-day that perhaps it would be possible to give more public instruction in the use of household remedies. In that way people who have headaches would not buy some kind of headache powder; they would know, for example, that an ordinary aspirin was in any case the active drug in any preparation which they were likely to buy, and that it could be obtained in a purer form at a very much cheaper price direct from the chemist. That is, naturally, only one of many possible examples. I suggest that the general public, in the interests of its health, should be educated to appreciate the use of common drugs. The only defence that is made, I believe, to these quack medicines is that, even though they are sold at a price—-and I have had some figures given to me—as high as a hundred times the price which they cost their makers, they are still cheaper than a medical consultation and a prescription. I believe that if the general public were further instructed in the use of simple drugs, that one defence, which is not in any case a defence for the purely secret remedy, would disappear. I hope that the Government will be pleased to-day to give us a favourable answer. If they are not, I trust that the noble Lord who has moved this Motion will press it, and I am convinced that he will receive support from all sides of the House.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I intervene for a few minutes to support my noble friend Lord Horder, who I am sure has rendered a conspicuous public service by bringing this subject before your Lordships. Although it is very late in the Session, as we all know, I hope that the representative of the Ministry of Health will give us encouragement in this matter. The noble Lord has studiously understated his case, and he has done it deliberately. In 1920 or 1921 I remember, as Minister of Health, being a party to the initiation of proceedings which led to the getting-together of a joint conference which represented all the various interests concerned. I have here, and I expect your Lordships have had, the various recommendations which came from a body on which medical men and newspaper proprietors were jointly represented. This step does not go very far; it is a very tentative and moderate approach to the matter. I am only mentioning it to emphasize the certainty that if the Government will remove what the noble Lord has described as the fear which besets Private Bills and take upon themselves the responsibility in this matter, they will be supported much more vigorously and widely than they suspect. I believe that the general public will be glad to be protected against this exploitation, which has been enormously increased during the last few years. We are supported to-day by the unanimous recommendations of conferences which occupied many years and which were representative of the views of trades, medical men, newspapers, advertisers and the rest. But, as Lord Horder said, it is impossible in existing circumstances for any newspaper which wishes to adopt a good tradition to sustain it, sometimes, in face of the competition which prevails to-day.
Particularly dangerous in these days, the love which the public has had in all ages for quackery has now become exploited by a most skilful development of the advertisement promoting suggestion. I understand that the modern advertiser has a sort of technique in which he promotes what he calls a suitable atmosphere, and that this technique during late years —I have no doubt at great expense—has been imported into the advertisement of these various nostrums. The technique, as we may see in any paper that we like to open, plays particularly upon the fear of people and drives them into that state
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of apprehension which the noble Lord has described to us as being so exceedingly dangerous to a vast multitude of sensitive and nervous people. The scandal is much worse than it was even in 1914, and it is different now in that it has been developed more subtly and much more powerfully. The Government of to-day are supported by the knowledge that they have behind them the recommendations of all the various interests which matter in the case. I therefore hope that the noble Lord representing the Ministry of Health will give some support to the noble Lord's Motion.
VISCOUNT GAGE: The noble Lord who introduced this Motion made a most interesting speech, and other noble Lords have also made interesting speeches. I am sure my right honourable friend the Minister would wish that those speeches should command a wide attention. So far as the medical evidence submitted to us is concerned, I have very few comments to make. It is perfectly true that every investigation that has been made has borne out that the improper use of drugs and of substances which are in themselves harmless is a distinct danger to health in this country; that it has handicapped the work of the medical profession; and that we are behind other countries. I should be quite ready to agree with the noble Lord that it may constitute an obstacle to the national fitness which we all wish to obtain. Before considering the Government's responsibility in the matter, however, we ought to consider what has actually been done. Most of the more powerful drugs are, I think it will be generally agreed, controlled to-day by the Dangerous Drugs Acts of 1920 and 1923, the Therapeutic Substances Act, 1925, the Pharmacy and Poisons Act, 1933, and the Food and Drugs Bill which has just passed through Parliament. Generally speaking, the effect of these Acts is that they guarantee that the drugs are pure, that they answer the description advertised, and that, so far as their toxic qualities are concerned, they shall not be issued to the public except on the prescription of a qualified doctor.
The problem of the dangerous drug has therefore largely been solved, except possibly for the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Horder: that of the new drugs that are continually being put on

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the market by the enterprise of manufacturing chemists. I think Lord Horder had some criticism to make on these new medicines. He said that the public had been used as a guinea-pig by the unscrupulous manufacturers. I am informed that there is no real method of foretelling what the effect of some of the new compounds is going to be; that one may be a mild disinfectant and another a very powerful explosive. It is true that their effect on the human body can only be ascertained by experiment, and I believe there have been fatal cases abroad where these experiments have been incomplete. I agree that this constitutes a possible danger, but it is one which is very difficult to guard against without putting an absolutely undue restriction on these very valuable new inventions. I understand—the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—that the majority of these substances are made by firms of the highest possible repute, who, in their own interests, see that the precautions which are taken are very complete. I believe that the dangers arising from that possible source are really remote.
The real difficulty, as the noble Lord has pointed out, arises from drugs and substances which are not in themselves harmful and which cannot be scheduled as dangerous or poisonous. It is quite true that the improper use of these drugs does constitute a danger, and that danger, I think, arises in two ways. A noble Lord mentioned aspirin. If it is used properly, there is no doubt that aspirin does provide a remedy, or relief anyhow, for a number of illnesses. If used to excess, obviously it is not beneficial, and I believe there have actually been cases where people have tried to take their own lives—I do not know whether they succeeded—by taking large quantities of aspirin. But take the other point of view. If aspirin is not used to excess, but is used to cure some dangerous fever, then it does harm because it may prevent proper treatment being applied. I take this case of aspirin because I think it is a well known product, about which, so far as I know, no very extravagant claims are made, and it is frequently recommended by the medical profession. I take it because I do not think the noble Lord said very much about a large number of perfectly reputable compounds which are on the market and which are frequently
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recommended by his profession. It is true that if these unfortunate results can arise from the improper use of these reputable products, advertised in a respectable way, far worse results can obviously ensue from the improper use of other drugs presented to the public with far less regard to truth and with far less security of quality.
Surely the inherent difficulty in dealing with these substances is that the real fault lies with the individual who takes them. It is surely just as difficult to stop people indulging in the excessive use of drugs and medicines as it is to stop people from excessive indulgence in drink. If people do not use the immense State assisted medical scheme which the noble Lord mentioned, and which has been provided for at least 18,000,000 of the inhabitants, and if people prefer to diagnose and treat their own complaints, it is surely largely their own responsibility if they suffer in consequence. It is perfectly true that they may be encouraged to do so by carefully worded advertisements, and I agree in theory that there is a case for controlling these advertisements; but here again I think the resources of the legal profession can easily be turned to bad account, and it is very easy to find forms of words which evade the penalties that may be devised in Acts of Parliament, unless these Acts are so strict as to bring within the meshes of their nets a number of perfectly harmless and well-established compounds that can at present be cheaply and easily procured.
The Select Committee, which reported in 1914, to which the noble Lord made reference, proposed three essential reforms. Firstly, registration of all manufacturers, proprietors and importers of patent, secret and proprietary medicines; secondly, that the exact composition of every patent medicine should be disclosed to the Ministry of Health; thirdly, that advertisements should be controlled. In regard to this last recommendation it was suggested that a definition of "false trade description" should be
"a statement designed or devised regarding any article or preparation or the drugs or ingredients or substances contained therein, or the curative or therapeutic effect thereof which is false or misleading in any particular."
I have mentioned that it is not always easy to devise forms of words which cannot be evaded. We know that the

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Chancellor of the Exchequer takes particular care to devise forms of words by which to extract money from the taxpayers, and it is to be observed that sometimes these words are evaded. It stands to reason that we can equally expect evasion even from this carefully drawn definition which I have read.
I was surprised to hear Lord Horder and Lord Faringdon say how easily they thought this control of advertisements could be effected. I think Lord Horder said that these things were controlled in America—that they were forbidden. Other things have been forbidden in the United States, but I do not know whether they all ceased immediately they were forbidden by law. After all, the quack remedy has been used as a political metaphor for some considerable time, and if we were to apply to politics or to political Parties a similar law. requiring that any statement which is false or misleading in any particular should be punishable, I fear that some of the noble Lords opposite would begin to regard it as the thin end of the wedge, or at all events would regard us rather askance, or at least begin to argue very hard as to what was false and misleading and what was not. I think that as in politics so it may be in medicine.
I am not attempting to exclude the possibility of some legislation on the lines suggested, but I do say that I think it would be very difficult to guarantee that such legislation would be effective. Of course it has been suggested that certain advertisements relating to certain specified diseases should be prohibited altogether. The Committee did recommend that, and it has been adopted so far as venereal disease is concerned. A Private Member's Bill was recently introduced in another place to extend this prohibition to other diseases, and I am not betraying any secrets when say that if that Bill had gone any way in another place it would have received the sympathetic consideration of the Government. What happened was that during the Second Reading the House was counted out, and the Government were unable to take any action, sympathetic or otherwise, because the Bill was automatically dropped.
Parliamentary apathy in these matters is frequently explained by the phrase "vested interests," to which Lord Horder has referred. I appreciate the tone in
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which Lord Horder referred to that pressure, but others of his colleagues have gone a long way further than he has gone. I noticed that in an article Professor Clark said that "the obvious reason why Parliament has refused for a quarter of a century to attempt to remedy any of the disgraceful abuses revealed by the Report of the Committee" is that "the Press controls the politicians and the secret remedies trade associations control the Press"—the argument being of course that vested interests represented by advertisers in the Press are so strong that the Government is powerless against them. We may be perfectly certain that no major reform has ever been, or is ever likely to be, effected in this country except in the face of vested interest of some sort. I think Professor Clark is rather severe on the Press, and I am glad that Lord Horder treated the matter in a different way, as also did the promoter of the Bill to which he made reference. They both quoted the magnificent work done by the Advertising Association, with the support of the leading newspapers, and I think that several newspapers have played a prominent part in exposing the more glaring cases of misrepresentation. Perhaps I did not hear correctly, but I rather gathered that the noble Lord, Lord Horder, seemed to think that the proprietors of these patent medicines exercised some pressure on the Government apart from the Press.
LORD HORDER: No.
VISCOUNT GAGE: Well, I am mistaken there. I was wondering how it was done. Apart from the very real administrative and legal difficulties of legislating on these matters, knowing as I say the ingenuity and evasion that we must expect, one of the principal obstacles to new legislation is one to which not very much reference has been made, either in this debate or in many of the articles that have been written, and it is one which I would like, with great diffidence, to illustrate from your Lordships' own proceedings. I have no doubt that your Lordships will remember that some months ago a Private Bill was introduced, the effect of which would have been to extend some degree of official recognition to osteopaths, and I think I am right in saying that that Bill excited almost as much opposition in the medical profession as patent medicines are doing to-day.

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Possibly some lesson can be learned from the reception that that Bill had in this House. Your Lordships will probably remember that on the Second Reading some of the most distinguished ornaments of the medical profession—I do not know whether the noble Lord was one of them, but certainly Lord Moynihan and Lord Dawson of Penn were two—made strong appeals to your Lordships to have nothing to do with that Bill. They were supported in that by several distinguished representatives of the law, and also by the Government.
I do not suppose that even the severest critic of your Lordships' House could describe this as a very impetuous body, but nevertheless, after considerable debate, the House decided by a large majority to proceed with the Bill. I admit it was only to send it to an inquiry but nevertheless they did decide to proceed to that stage. I think that a question does arise as to why your Lordships decided to ignore that large body of responsible opinion, as I should have regarded it, and of course on this matter we may hold different theories. Perhaps Lord Horder thought it was owing to the weak case made out by the Government spokesman, but I believe that the real reason was that the majority of your Lordships felt that, in the present state of uncertainty regarding so many aspects of the human constitution, and where so many diseases are still unfortunately incurable, the orthodox school of medicine—although I think everybody accorded it a great measure of respect whether he agreed with the orthodox school or not—should not be allowed to establish too rigid a dictatorship over other schools of thought.
That is not an attitude with which I sympathise myself, nor is it an attitude with which my right honourable friend, who is himself a doctor, could be expected to sympathise. But it is a fact of considerable importance, and as a Minister of a democratic country my right honourable friend has to take that into account. I think in a recent article the noble Lord, Lord Horder, himself has laid down that a law which aims at being in advance of opinion and practice is rarely a good law. I must say that, judging from the reception of legislation since the War, it appears that public opinion is, in spite of what has been said, greatly divided.
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If I am asked to say why, in the face of all these reports, successive Governments have done so little, I should summarise it in this way. I should first explain it by the popular theory that people have the right to make fools of themselves in their own way, provided they do not do harm to other people. That may perhaps sound a rather crude argument, but I do put it to the noble Lord, who is a great authority on these matters, that surely the point is to be considered as to whether there is no danger in weakening the individual sense of responsibility in these matters. Secondly, I think it is a fact that we cannot legislate effectively without at least risking adding to the difficulty and expense of obtaining remedies which are in many cases harmless and beneficial. In saying this I am not trying to exclude the possibility of further repressive and restrictive legislation. All I do say most emphatically is that repression alone is one of the most dubious of all lines of progress. I am sure the noble Lord will agree that it is only education as to what health and fitness mean that will really induce people to refrain, as the well known phrase goes, from "pouring drugs of which they know little into bodies of which they know nothing." My right honourable friend will carefully examine what the noble Lord has said, and will see whether anything can be done to incorporate in the educational side of the national fitness movement something of a warning nature against the misuse of drugs generally.
I have tried to be frank in answering my noble friend. Perhaps he may still not be convinced, and, if that is so, perhaps he would like to have a try at legislation himself. I notice that, in spite of the fact that the noble Lord assured me that there is a great mass of public opinion behind him in this matter, the only explanation he gave as to why private legislation had failed was in the perhaps somewhat unscientific phrase that there was a hoodoo on Private Bills. But I can assure him that on legal matters we should be very pleased to place all our resources at his disposal, and on medical matters we have no higher sources of information than those which he himself can command. I repeat that our own attitude must be, to some extent at any rate, dictated by public opinion because in these matters the public must have the last word. My noble friend has moved

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for Papers. I am perfectly prepared to lay any Papers he likes, but I hope I have met the main arguments he advanced to his satisfaction.
LORD HORDER: My Lords, I understand that I have free access in a private capacity, and I would like to avail myself of that. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the Second Report from the Select Committee read.
The Report was as follows:
1.—ACOUSTICS OF THE CHAMBER.
A Report as to the improvement of the acoustics of the Chamber was laid before the Committee.
The Committee recommended that one microphone should be suspended over the Cross Benches with a view to a further installation if satisfactory, and that twelve car pieces should be fitted in the Strangers' Gallery.
The Clerk of the Parliaments was desired to investigate the question of other improvements.
2.—APPOINTMENT OF CLERK.
The Committee sanctioned a scheme for the appointment of a Clerk on the general clerical scale.
3.—ADJUSTMENT OF SALARIES.
The Committee sanctioned, as from April 1, 1938, the application of Treasury Circular No. 14/37 (Revision of Salaries) to the salary of the Counsel to the Chairman of Committees and the salaries of two senior clerks, the salary of the Counsel to the Chairman of Committees to be £2,000 and that of the two senior clerks £1,200, accordingly.
4.—THE FIRST PRINCIPAL DOORKEEPER.
The Committee sanctioned an increase in the salary of the First Principal Doorkeeper from £280 to £300 per annum as from July 1. 1938.
5.—CLERK TO THE LORD GREAT CHAMBERLAIN.
The Committee confirmed the appointment of Mr. R. Herbert. The salary to be £190, rising by annual increments of £12 from October 15, 1938, to a maximum of £280.
They also sanctioned a payment to Mr. R. Herbert of £35 per annum whilst discharging duties of secretarial work to the Clerk of the Parliaments.
6. —HOUSEKEEPER.
The Committee sanctioned full pay for the period May 19 to June 18, 1938, to the house-keener, who was incapacitated owing to an accident while on duty.
7.—GRATUITY TO A HOUSEMAID.
The Committee sanctioned a gratuity calculated under Section 4 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, to Mrs. Elizabeth Matthew in respect of twenty-four years' service as housemaid in the House of Lords.
8.—AUTHORIZATION OF EXTRA PAYMENTS.
The Committee sanctioned the payments in connection with extra duties on Coronation Day, May 12, 1937.
9.—LIBRARY SUB-COMMITTEE.
The Earl Baldwin of Bewdley and the Lord Stainnore were added to the Sub-Committee.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, the only point in this Report to which I would draw your Lordships' attention is the first one, which is headed "Acoustics of the Chamber." I think, as your Lordships are all well aware, the acoustics of this Chamber are not what they should be, and indeed I had occasion to remark the other day that if your Lordships and another place were to agree to Ministers addressing both Houses of Parliament, and a Minister from another place were to address your Lordships from behind the Woolsack, noble Lords would not hear what he said. Indeed, it is impossible in many parts of the House really to hear what noble Lords say. Any improvement of the acoustics of the House I am sure would be very greatly welcomed not only by your Lordships but by those who come here to listen to the debates. I have been myself in the Strangers' Gallery during a debate, and there found it extremely difficult to hear what noble Lords were saying on the floor of the House. I should imagine that much the same disability exists in the Reporters' Gallery, though perhaps the position is better there than in the Strangers' Gallery.
Various experiments have been considered by the authorities of the House and by the Office of Works, and it is proposed in the first instance to instal a microphone which will be hung from the ceiling just over the Cross Benches, and to connect it with the Strangers' Gallery by means of twelve ear-pieces, so that ear-pieces connected with the microphone will he used for the Strangers' Gallery as well as for your Lordships' House. That is not all we propose to do. Various other experiments are under consideration and will be tentatively introduced. This microphone installation is tentative. We do not exactly know how it will work, but it is hoped, by experiment and by

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putting in different devices, that we may be able to improve the acoustics of your Lordships' House. Personally, if I may say so, I hope one result will be the disappearance of the ugly black boxes that stand on the Table in front of your Lordships. That is the only point in the Report to which I need call your Lordships' attention. I hope these experiments will be successful, that the acoustics will be improved and that further improvements will be made as time goes on. I beg to move that this Report be now considered and agreed to.
Moved, That the Report be now considered and agreed to.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

OVERSEA SETTLEMENT.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had given Notice that he would draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the policy expressed in a recent speech in the House of Lords by the Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions, in which he stated that it was considered that the fifty-fifty basis of contribution to voluntary societies engaged in settling people overseas under the Empire Settlement Act of 1937 was, normally speaking, sufficient for the purpose; ask whether in view of the fact that these voluntary societies are the best and most economical instruments for carrying out the filtration policy of emigration recommended in the recently published Report of the Oversea Settlement Board, His Majesty's Government will carry out the intention of Parliament when passing that Act and give to approved societies in as many cases as possible 75 per cent. of any amount required to settle an individual overseas, as is provided for under that Act; and move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I shall say in a very few words what I have to say on this Motion. It arises out of a debate on oversea settlement which took place in your Lordships' House last week. During that debate I urged that the voluntary societies, which seem to me to be the best medium of carrying out the emigration policy of infiltration, should be subsidised to a greater degree than they are to-day. It seems in fact that they are the only
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medium through which that policy can be carried out with any degree of success. In the reply made by my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State, he referred to the fact that under the Empire Settlement Act of 1937—I am trying to interpret broadly what he said—up to 75 per cent. of any amount expended on overseas emigration may be provided by the Government. But lie went on to say at the end of his speech:
"But, broadly speaking, 50 per cent. is considered enough for us to find and the fifty-fifty basis is the one on which we normally work. But, as I have said, we have powers in exceptional conditions to contribute up to 75 per cent."
I refreshed my memory of that Act after the debate because I could not remember any reference in it to "exceptional conditions." The Act actually says this in subsection (2) of Section I:
"Notwithstanding anything in proviso (b) to the said subsection (3) (which limits the contribution of the Secretary of State to half the expenses of such a scheme as aforesaid), the Secretary of State may contribute an amount not exceeding three-quarters of the expenses of any such scheme"
except in certain cases. What I venture to submit is that when this Act was passed it was passed with the deliberate object of increasing the 50 per cent. contribution to 75 per cent., not in "exceptional cases," but in as many cases as possible. If that had not been the case, that provision would not have been included in the Act. I suggest to His Majesty's Government that that is the interpretation they should place upon that subsection and not the interpretation which was stated by my noble friend in the debate last week. I wish also to contend that if that proper interpretation, as I submit, is placed on the Act, it will enable the infiltration policy to be carried out much more speedily.
Obviously if a voluntary society—and I am talking about approved voluntary societies—has at its disposal x number of pounds for the purpose of emigrating people overseas, if it is only to receive contributions on a fifty-fifty basis it cannot send as many people as it would if it were receiving a 75 per cent. grant. I urge the Government, if they are going to make use of this Act, to adopt a much more liberal spirit in applying it. The noble Duke, in his reply, told us that out of a sum of £1,500,000 only £24,000 was expended last year.

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There was a reason for that because Australia had not started immigration to the same extent as she is doing now; but out of this £1,500,000 they estimated only £65,000 would be spent this year. I suggest that that is not a right policy. The whole country is crying out for emigration to the greatest extent that it can be secured, subject to what the Dominions may do; and it is entirely wrong that this Act, which was deliberately passed with the object of increasing that emigration, should be interpreted in the mean spirit, if I may so describe it, in which it is being interpreted to-day. In spite of the Treasury representative on the Board, about whom I accept what the noble Duke said last week regarding his keenness and enthusiasm, I hope that a very much more liberal view will be taken in the future. I beg to move for Papers.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I trust that at this relatively late hour my noble friend will forgive me if I reply quite briefly. The Act of 1937 to which my noble friend referred was passed as the result of a recommendation by the Oversea Settlement Board. That recommendation was that:
"where the partner in the scheme is an organisation financed otherwise than from Government funds, it should be open to the Secretary of State to contribute, if he thinks fit, up to 75 per cent. of the cost. We do not of course imply that the contribution should be 75 per cent. in all cases."
The provision which enables the Secretary of State to subscribe to the funds of voluntary societies is intended to enable him to assist migration throught these societies. It is designed to enable him to secure migration so far as lies within his power, but it is most certainly not designed to enable him to spend the taxpayers' money unnecessarily.
So far as I can speak for my noble friend the Secretary of State, I think he will continue to adopt the policy he has followed in the past of securing his results as cheaply as he possibly can. In many cases voluntary societies which are supported by the Secretary of State do not receive the 5o per cent. which was the old basis. It is unnecessary that they should. There are many excellent societies which can draw upon the general public for sympathy and support, and to which it is unnecessary that the Secretary of State should make any very substantial
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contribution, but a contribution is in many cases of value as showing the sympathy of the Secretary of State as well as in virtue of its intrinsic value. There are cases—and since the Act of last year was passed I think there have been three or four cases—in which the contribution of the Secretary of State has been raised as high as 75 per cent., but, speaking broadly, the Secretary of State will continue to make his contribution to the funds of those societies only to the extent that is necessary and not more. He will not exceed 5o per cent. or any other amount and will not go to 75 per cent. unless he can be convinced that a contribution of 75 per cent. is necessary in order that the society can carry on its work. Where we are convinced that it is necessary we shall of course pay 75 per cent., but we shall not do so unless we are satisfied that it is necessary for the work of the society. I am sorry not to give my noble friend greater satisfaction, but, on the other hand, I can assure him that within the limits laid down by Parliament monetary considerations will not interfere with our giving the greatest possible support we can to any scheme of migration which really deserves it.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I cannot regard the reply of my noble friend as in any way satisfactory. What he has really said is that the Government sympathetically look upon the efforts of the voluntary societies, but that, from a practical point of view, they do not propose to assist them beyond the extent which they feel to be absolutely necessary. That is not the spirit in which this Act was passed. I was present when it passed through this House and I read the debate in the House of Commons. The Act was passed by Parliament with the object of inducing the Government to use it to every possible extent, and I submit that my noble friend's reply to my speech does not show that that is being done. I feel so strongly on this matter that I propose in the autumn to raise in your Lordships' House the whole question of the reconstitution of the Board and the establishment of a business Board to look after migration in this country. There are any number of people who agree with me in this matter. I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at two minutes past seven o'clock.