Sitting of 12 July 1938

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Penzance Corporation Bill [Lords].
Bill to be read a Second time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    SPAIN.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the President of the Board of Trade the total value in 1937 of exports to and of imports from the respective areas controlled by the Spanish Government and the Insurgent authorities, and the value in the same year of medical supplies shipped to each of those areas?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Cumberland, North (Mr. W. Roberts) on 21st June.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does that include a reference to medical supplies?
    Mr. Stanley: If the hon. Member looks at the answer he will see that it is impossible to give this information, because separate particulars in regard to individual parts of Spain are not recorded.

    FRUITS (DISTRIBUTION COSTS).
    Mr. Parkerasked the President of the Board of Trade what answer has been received from the Food Council to the proposal for an inquiry into the costs of retail or wholesale distribution of fruits which was passed on to them?
    Mr. Stanley: The Food Council, I understand, do not consider that the suggested inquiry would be likely to lead to any useful results.
    Mr. Parker: Do the Food Council ever do anything active?
    Mr. Stanley: Yes, Sir; they do a number of active things.

    CANNED BEEF (IMPORTS).
    Mr. Dayasked the President of the Board of Trade particulars of the various complaints he has received owing to the shortage of foreign canned beef, caused by the voluntary arrangement for the limitation of imports of the same; and, in view of the fact that the price has increased, attributable to the quota, will he consider reviewing of same?
    Mr. Stanley: I have received no recent complaints of inadequate supplies of canned beef. I understand that the price of certain categories was increased on 1st July. The quantities of canned beef to be imported are now a matter for the consideration of the International Beef Conference, who have recommended in 1937 and the current year appreciable increases on the quotas compared with 1936.
    Mr. Day: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that owing to the reduction of the quota the prices have gone up considerably to the poorest people, and that they have difficulty in obtaining supplies?
    Mr. Stanley: If the hon. Member had listened to the reply he would have heard that there has been no reduction of the quota. There has been an increase this year and last year in comparison with 1936.

    MEXICO (OIL, SALE).
    Mr. G. Straussasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now make any statement in regard to the agreement which has been signed by the Mexican Government for the sale of $10,000,000 worth of oil and the effects this agreement may have on British interests?
    Mr. Stanley: The only information I have concerning an agreement of the kind referred to is what has appeared in the Press. I am not, therefore, in a position to make any statement as to the effect which such an agreement might have on British interests.
    Mr. Strauss: In view of the possible serious repercussions on the trade between this country and Mexico, and the relationship between the two countries, does the right hon. Gentleman intend to consider this agreement, to make inquiries and to report to the House, or be prepared to answer questions on the matter?
    Mr. Stanley: I shall certainly try to get all the information I can, but the hon. Member must realise that our Minister is no longer in Mexico.

    EXPORT CREDITS (SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE).
    Mr. Priceasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether any steps are contemplated to extend credits to any of the countries of the Balkans and South-eastern Europe on terms similar to those which were arranged in the recent Anglo-Turkish agreement?
    Mr. R. S. Hudson (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): The facilities provided by the Export Credits Guarantee Department are available to United Kingdom exporters for trade with any overseas country, provided that the business is judged to be sound and the security available to be adequate. It will be realised, however, that the arrangement of credit guarantees is a complicated matter and the same procedure may not always be applicable in different cases.
    Mr. Price: Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that extra facilities are afforded to those countries in South-Eastern Europe which would really benefit from any exchange of trade between them and this country to the mutual advantage of both?
    Mr. Hudson: I said in the course of the recent Debate, that the question of those other countries was under consideration at the present time.

    MILLED FLOUR (IMPORTS).
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state in hundredweights the total amount of milled flour imported into Great Britain during 1935, 1936, and 1937?
    Mr. Stanley: My hon. Friend will find particulars of the imports of products of the milling and allied industries during the years 1935, 1936, and 1937 on page II of the issue of the "Accounts relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom" for December last.
    Mr. De la Bère: Can my right hon. Friend tell me in respect to these amounts whether the offals relating to the flour are also imported?
    Mr. Stanley: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will look at page 11 of the Accounts relating to Trade and Navigation in the United Kingdom for December last, and if there is any information that he then requires, perhaps he will ask me again.
    Mr. Macquisten: Why should not all the flour be milled in this country?

    COMPULSORY INSURANCE (MOTOR VEHICLES).
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Departments concerned have given consideration to the report on Compulsory Insurance; and is it intended that legislation shall be introduced to implement the recommendations contained in the report?
    Mr. Stanley: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to him on 21st June, to which I have nothing to add at present.

  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    ACCIDENTS.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade when he proposes to hold inquiries into the accidents which occurred to the steamships "Quarrington Court," "Annagher" and "Ino," on, respectively, 7th December, 1937, 11th December, 1937, and 14th October, 1937; and what are the reasons for the delay in holding these inquiries?
    Mr. Stanley: In each case the statutory preliminary inquiry was begun immediately after the casualty occurred. As a result of the preliminary inquiries, formal public investigations were ordered, and these will be held as and when the necessary technical evidence is ready and as and when the essential witnesses are

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    available. The public investigation into the loss of the steamship "Ino" will open at Bristol on 20th July, and it is expected that it will be possible for the other two cases to be heard early in September. There has been no avoidable delay in holding these inquiries.

    SKILLED RATINGS.
    Mr. Thorneasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent there is now any shortage of skilled men, such as boatswains, qualified able-bodied seamen, junior engineers and merchant seamen; and what action he intends taking in the matter?
    Mr. Stanley: I understand that there is at the present time no general shortage of the ratings to which the hon. Member refers.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    INTERPRETERSHIP EXAMINATIONS (TERRITORIAL OFFICERS).
    Captain Cunningham-Reidasked the Secretary of State for War whether officers of the Territorial Army are upon the same footing as Regular officers as regards the £50 grant to officers successful in passing Army interpretership examinations; and, if not, whether, in view of his desire to give encouragement to the Territorial Army, he will remove any discrimination in this connection against Territorial officers?
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): For an officer to be selected for language study he must hold a permanent commission in the Regular Army. The object of the present system is to ensure an adequate number of regular Staff Officers with certain required language qualifications. A language award is not earned merely by passing an interpretership examination, but the officer concerned is sent abroad in his military capacity for a period of as much as three years in some cases.
    Captain Cunningham-Reid: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider allowing this grant to Territorial officers who have to go abroad to study for these examinations?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I think my answer shows that it would be difficult in the case of Territorial officers, who only undertake
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    to serve in their own localities, to send them abroad for as much as three years at a time.

    COURTS OF LAW (OFFICER WITNESSES).
    Captain Cunningham-Reidasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the ruling by a senior Metropolitan stipendiary magistrate that an Army officer giving evidence in a court of law should not wear a sword; and whether, as the King's Regulations and dress regulations for the Army do not deal specifically with this point, he will amend them in this particular.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Paragraph 977, King's Regulations, requires uniform to be worn by all ranks when on duty. An officer detailed to attend a court of law is on duty, and in such circumstances he is bound to attend in military uniform, of which his sword forms a part. Its removal from the military point of view would be an act of discourtesy. Instructions have recently been issued for the guidance of military authorities in regard to the application of these regulations to the particular case of an officer detailed to attend a court of law.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Is the Minister aware that a sword is an implement to wound or take life? What use can a sword, therefore, be in a court of law? If an Army officer wishes to attend here in uniform, he can do so, but he must not wear a sword.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: It is a long time since a sword in this country was used to wound anybody. I think speech more often wounds.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my question? An officer who is a Member of this House may attend this House in uniform, but he must not wear a sword.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The Serjeant-at-Arms in this House wears a sword.
    Mr. MacGovern: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that swords are frequently used in Glasgow by religious factionists?

    HOUSEHOLD CAVALRY REGIMENTS (COST).
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for War the annual cost of the upkeep of each of the Household Cavalry

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    regiments; and whether, in view of modem war conditions, consideration will be given to the advisability of disbanding one of these regiments as being superfluous and transferring officers and other ranks to other units?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The approximate annual effective cost of each of the two regiments is £86,000, exclusive of accommodation. Neither of these regiments is superfluous.

    ANTI-AIRCRAFT CAMPS.
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for War how many permanent antiaircraft camps are at present in existence which meet the full requirements of the military and Royal Air Force authorities and also provide full facilities for training and firing practice; and are they sufficient to meet the Government's expanding branch of these defences for the purpose of training the additional units at present being raised, or contemplated being raised, in the near future by the Government?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The answer to the first part is five, and to the second part that additional camps will be established to meet expanding requirements.
    Mr. Day: Will these camps be capable of expansion if necessary?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: It is proposed to add to them.
    Mr. Davidson: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to co-operate with Mr. Butlin in the establishment of these camps?

    BREN GUNS (CANADIAN PRODUCTION).
    Mr. Parkerasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in placing the order with a Canadian company for the production of 5,000 Bren guns, he is satisfied that these guns are being obtained as cheaply as possible?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The order for Bren guns to be made in Canada was placed in association with the Canadian Government for the production of requirements for both Governments, and to provide an alternative source of supply. Having regard to this, the price finally agreed upon is satisfactory.
    Mr. Bellenger: May I ask the prices of these Canadian Bren guns compared with the English prices? Are they higher, lower, or the same?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: They are higher.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect delivery?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I must ask for notice of that question.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Has any date been fixed for the delivery of the guns?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Yes, but I cannot say offhand. A date has been fixed.

  SCOTLAND.

    EDUCATION, FIFE.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of teachers in Fife who teach in both day school and night school; the number graduating from Fife each year for the past five years; and the number on the waiting list for employment?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Colville): The number asked for in the first part of the question is 303. As to the second part, the numbers of Fife students who qualified as teachers in each of the five years from 1933–34 to 1937–38, were 88, 81, 67, 64 and 81 respectively. The number on the waiting list for employment is 35.
    Mr. Gallacher: Are any special measures being taken in order to get these teachers jobs? Not only in Fife but all over Scotland teachers are finding great difficulty in getting jobs.
    Mr. Colville: I find that 33 of the 35 teachers I mentioned have been given work for varying periods as interim teachers. The raising of the school-leaving age may increase the demand for teachers.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the average number of scholars attending night schools in Fife during the past five years and the numbers who complete the courses?
    Mr. Colville: The average number of scholars attending continuation classes in Fife during the five years ended in 1937 was 9,425. Particulars as to the numbers

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    of scholars who completed the courses are not immediately available, but I am making inquiry and will communicate the results to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the right hon. Gentleman find out that as a result of the hard work they have to do in the day time many of these scholars do not complete the course at the night schools, and will he provide special means to lessen the amount of work they have to do in the day time?
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of pupils in Fife schools leaving the schools this year and the average leaving the schools in Fife for the past five years?
    Mr. Colville: The number of pupils leaving the schools in Fife this year is estimated to be 4,950. In the five years ended 31st July, 1937, the average annual number was 5,503.
    Mr. Gallacher: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these lads and lassies who come out of school are going to be left without any occupation or simply go into blind-alley occupations, and will any special steps be taken to ensure a future for them?

    FLOODING, RIVER KELVIN.
    Mr. T. Johnstonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the most recent overflowing of the River Kelvin flooded the public roads in the neighbourhood to such an extent that the water reached the top of the bonnet of a motor-car; and whether he can indicate what is the cause of the prolonged delay in applying the Scottish Land Drainage Act in the Kelvin Valley area?
    Mr. Colville: I am aware that places in the valley of the River Kelvin, in common with a number of other parts of Scotland, experienced flooding in consequence of heavy rains which occurred in the latter part of June. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, the Department of Agriculture for Scotland have, in terms of the Land Drainage (Scotland) Act, settled a scheme of land drainage for the River Kelvin valley and the statutory procedure in connection therewith is in course of being carried out.
    Mr. Johnston: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have been asking questions
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    on this matter for the past two years and can he indicate that this Act will be brought into operation before the dissolution of the present Parliament?
    Mr. Colville: The measures necessary to carry out the statutory procedure under the Act of 1930, are as the right hon. Gentleman knows, outside the control of the Department, but I can assure him that as soon as possible the proposals will be laid before Parliament.

    NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
    Mr. Johnstonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the heavy drain of permanent disablement benefit cases upon their funds prevent many approved societies from being in a position to provide supplementary benefits to their other members; and whether he will consider the advisability of providing for disablement cases from some central fund after disablement has continued for some fixed number of years?
    Mr. Colville: I am aware that claims for disablement benefit have tended to increase in recent years. A comprehensive investigation into the causes of the increase is at present being carried out by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, and pending the completion of that investigation it would be premature for me to consider the adoption of the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Logan: In view of the valuable suggestion contained in the question, is it not possible for a centralised fund to be established and then for these cases to be centralised? Has that been considered?
    Mr. Colville: I think I had better wait for the report of the investigation.
    Mr. Johnston: How long will that be?
    Mr. Colville: I cannot say.
    Mr. Buchanan: I take it that any investigation will not in any way interfere with the payment of disablement benefit?
    Mr. Colville: No, Sir.

    ACCIDENT, EMPIRE EXHIBITION.
    Mr. McGovernasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that certain witnesses who handed their names and addresses to the authorities at

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    the time of the fatal accident in the amusement park at Glasgow Exhibition were not cited as witnesses for the recent inquiry under the Fatal Accidents Act, and that one of these witnesses would have been a most important witness; why he was not cited; and whether the right hon. Gentleman will take steps to have the whole of the circumstances reviewed in the light of such evidence?
    The Lord Advocate (Mr. T. M. Cooper): I am aware that certain of the persons whose names were given as witnesses of this accident were not cited to attend the inquiry; but, according to the information in my possession, none of those persons could have added anything to the evidence of the eye-witnesses and experts who were called as witnesses. If the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars regarding the important witness who was omitted, I shall be glad to cause further investigation to be made.
    Mr. McGovern: I will send the Lord Advocate the information.

    ARRESTS, EMPIRE EXHIBITION.
    Mr. McGovernasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of persons arrested in the Empire Exhibition grounds since the opening in May and the nature of the offences, respectively; whether he is aware that arrested persons are conveyed to Govan police station, where the officer in charge has no power to grant release on payment of bail; that the arrested persons are conveyed to the central police station during the early hours of the morning after the charge, thereby causing detention for many hours when they were due to be released on bail; that agents and friends are prevented from getting into communication with arrested persons; and whether he will, in conjunction with the authorities, secure the conveyance of prisoners to the central police station immediately they are arrested?
    Mr. Colville: As the answer is a long one, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. McGovern: Can the Secretary of State say whether the answer gives any indication that prisoners in future will be taken direct to the Central prison and will be allowed bail at the earlier possible moment?
    Mr. Colville: The answer goes fully into the point which the hon. Member raises. Perhaps he will look at it and then, if it is necessary, ask a further question.
    Mr. Day: Are these prisoners conducted in prison vans or marched through the streets?
    Mr. Colville: In vans.
    Following is the answer:
    One hundred and thirteen persons have been arrested in the Exhibition. This number includes 77 for being drunk and incapable, 18 for breach of the peace, 9 for theft; 3 for being known thieves loitering with intent, 3 for assault, 2 for indecent exposure, and 1 for fraud. Seventy-one of the persons arrested were taken in the first instance to Govan Police Station, and the remainder to the Central Police Station. The officer in charge at Govan has power to liberate on bail. Four of the persons taken to Govan were so liberated and the remainder, who were at the time unfit for liberation because of drink, were transferred to the Central Police station. The transfers take place between midnight and 2 a.m. Agents are allowed to interview prisoners at any hour at which they apply for permission to do so, while visits from friends are allowed at the discretion of the officer on duty. As regards the last part of the question, I am informed that it would not be practicable to provide a police vehicle to take each person upon his arrest direct to the Central Police Station. In any case no such action appears to be called for.

    HOUSING.
    Mr. McGovernasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will instruct the Second Scottish Housing Company to reduce the house rents at Sandy-hills and Springboig steel-housing schemes, in view of the recent reductions of about £3 per year by the Glasgow Corporation on houses of a like size and type at the adjoining estates of Sandyhills and Carntyne and that previous Secretaries of State have laid it down that the rents must be regulated by the rents of houses of a similar type in the area?
    Mr. Colville: In terms of their agreement with the Department of Health for Scotland the company are, as the hon. Member is aware, required to fix their ments by reference to the rents charged

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    for similar accommodation in the district. I have no doubt that due consideration will be given to the proposed reduction referred to in the question which, I am informed, does not take place until 28th August next.
    Mr. McGovern: Is the Secretary of State aware that he is badly informed, as a £2 reduction has already taken place in my own house, and that a further reduction is to take place in August? As these steel houses are not up to the standard of brick houses will the right hon. Gentleman urge substantial reductions with a view to complying with the regulations laid down by the Secretary of State?
    Mr. Colville: As I have said, by agreement with the Department this company is bound to take into account the rent of houses in the neighbourhood, and that reductions will be taken into account.
    Mr. McGovern: Will the Minister make representations on this point?
    Mr. Colville: I have not undertaken to make representations but I can assure the hon. Member that the company will be made aware of these reductions.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the attention of local authorities in Scotland has been drawn to the need for special provisions in the rehousing of families which include one or more tuberculous members; and whether he is aware that at the present time many patients whose condition has been substantially improved in sanatoria rapidly lose all the ground they have gained when they return to houses which should be subjected to slum clearance?
    Mr. Colville: I am aware that bad housing conditions may sometimes be responsible for a deterioration in the health of persons discharged from sanatoria and the Department of Health have advised local authorities in connexion with their rehousing operations to take account of the presence of tuberculous persons in particular households in view of the desirability of such persons having a room to themselves.
    Sir T. Moore: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that other members of the family are liable to infection when these people return from a sanatorium?
    Mr. Buchanan: Will the Secretary of State circularise local authorities again on this matter in view of its importance?
    Mr. Colville: Fairly recently this matter was brought to their notice, but I will look into it again.

    DIPHTHERIA (IMMUNISATION, CHILDREN).
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what assistance is given by his Department towards giving injections to school children to immunise them against diphtheria; and whether, in view of the danger of epidemics of this disease, progress in this matter can be accelerated?
    Mr. Colville: The Department of Health have stressed in their annual reports the value of immunisation of children against diphtheria. A number of local authorities, with the encouragement of the Department, have proceeded with the formulation of schemes for securing such immunisation, and the Department's Medical Officers have co-operated with medical officers of health to that end.
    Mr. Leach: Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly note that these injections are both dangerous and unreliable?
    Mr. Colville: That is a matter of opinion.

    OLD AGE PENSIONERS (PUBLIC ASSISTANCE).
    Mr. J. J. Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total number of old age pensioners receiving relief in money or kind from Glasgow public assistance committee for the years ending May, 1936, 1937 and 1938, respectively?
    Mr. Colville: The number of old age pensioners receiving relief in Glasgow at 15th May, 1936, was 13,428; at 15th May, 1937, 14,054; and at 15th May, 1938, 15,246.
    Mr. Davidson: In view of the continual increase year by year in the number of aged people who have to go to the local authority for assistance, will the Minister convene a conference of local authorities to discuss this question, which places such a terrible burden upon them?
    Mr. Colville: The hon. Member's first question was one of fact, which I have

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    answered. He is now raising a different question, which I am not in a position to answer.
    Mr. Gallacher: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider increasing the old age pension?

    SIZE OF SCHOOL CLASSES, GLASGOW.
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total number of classes in Glasgow schools with 50 or more pupils for the years ending March, 1937, and 1938, respectively?
    Mr. Colville: In April, 1937, there were in Glasgow 267 classes with 50 pupils, and 114 with over 50 pupils, on the roll. The corresponding figures for April, 1938, were 165 and 42.
    Mr. Davidson: In view of this high figure will the Secretary of State take note of the recent statement of the Educational Institute of Scotland, that no teacher or professor, however capable and efficient, can educate people in these circumstances?
    Mr. Colville: The hon. Member will notice the considerable decrease last year.

    ADMINISTRATION.
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider in the near future assisting the Secretary of State for Scotland by the appointment of an additional Under-Secretary of State?
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): The question of appointing an additional Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is, as the hon. Member is aware, referred to in the course of the Report of the Departmental Committee on Scottish Administration, though they made no specific recommendation on the matter. This report is now receiving consideration, and I am not at present in a position to make any statement.
    Mr. Davidson: In view of the fact that this report has been under consideration for a considerable time and that Scottish business, very evidently, is not being adequately dealt with as things are just now, will the Prime Minister at least hasten on this particular appointment apart from waiting for the full consideration of the report?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think it can be considered apart from the other questions raised in the report.
    Sir Archibald Sinclair: Can the Prime Minister say when he will be able to inform the House of the result of the Government's consideration of this report, and whether a statement will be made before the House rises at the end of the month?
    The Prime Minister: I could not say that without notice.
    Mr. Mander: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that there are already upwards of 100 Members in this House dependent on the Government, and that we do not want any additions to the number?

    COAL INDUSTRY (CAGE WORKING).
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary for Mines what reports he has received from His Majesty's inspectors regarding the instructions sent them to the effect that young and inexperienced boys should not be given duties in connection with the working of cages; and whether he proposes to take any further action?
    The Secretary for Mines (Captain Crookshank): No cases of the kind have been reported to me since the instructions were issued.
    Mr. Day: Have colliery managers been circularised on this matter?
    Captain Crookshank: No, Sir, there has been no occasion to circularise them.

    NEWFOUNDLAND (SCHOOL ATTENDANCE).
    Mr. Lunnasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that thousands of children in Newfoundland are unable to attend school because they are without shoes and clothing fit to go in, and are also badly in need of food; and what is proposed to remedy this state of affairs?
    The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Lord Stanley): I have been in communication with the Governor with regard to the suggestion in the hon. Member's question, and I am glad to have the opportunity of informing the House of the facts. The Governor informs me

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    that there is no question of 40,000 children failing to attend school in Newfoundland as has been stated in recent Press reports. According to the 1935 Census returns some 14,000 children of school age (six to 14) did not attend school in that year, but since then the numbers of children enrolled on the school registers have been substantially increased as a result of an energetic campaign on the part of the supervisors and teachers. In the cases of children not attending school the main factors contributing to nonattendance have been found to be the withdrawal of children at an early age, the distance to the nearest school, and in certain instances deficiency of school accommodation. The Governor also reports that only in a few cases has nonattendance been attributable to lack of shoes or clothing, and that prompt steps are always taken, whenever such cases are brought to notice, to supply the needs of the children affected. He adds that the Commission of Government have no evidence of children being prevented from attending school because of conditions of lack of nourishment.
    Mr. Lunn: Am I to understand from the answer that the Press reports are absolutely unfounded and that everything in the island is lovely?
    Lord Stanley: I think my answer shows that the Press reports are grossly exaggerated.
    Sir Louis Smith: As the condition of a large portion of the population of Newfoundland is due to the depression in the fishing industry, will the Noble Lord consider sending someone from this country with an expert knowledge of the industry?

    SPAIN.
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs the number of Dominion citizens who have been killed and wounded by General Franco's forces while serving on British and Dominion merchant vessels?
    Lord Stanley: I am not aware of any case of a Dominion citizen being killed or wounded in circumstances such as the hon. Member mentions.
    Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether consultations have taken
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    place, or are contemplated, with the Spanish Government on the subject of the proposals of General Franco with regard to the establishment of a special port for shipping at Almeria or elsewhere?
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether General Franco's proposals concerning Almeria have been communicated to the Spanish Government?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): The proposals concerning Almeria form part of the larger question on which the Prime Minister will make a statement as soon as he is in a position to do so.
    Mr. Mander: Would the hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer the question as to whether any consultations have taken place with the Spanish Government who are so closely concerned in this matter? That is the question.
    Mr. Butler: No consultations have yet taken place with the Spanish Government on this subject.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Has the hon. Gentleman observed that the port of Almeria is so unimportant that it is not one of those into which it is proposed to put observers?
    Mr. Butler: I had observed that.

    BECHUANALAND (MASARWA TRIBE).
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what steps have been taken in Bechuanaland since the Tagart Report to abolish the slavery of the Masarwa people; and whether there is evidence either that the number of slaves has been reduced or that the conditions of absolute dependence on the Bamangwato and other tribes have been modified?
    Lord Stanley: Substantial progress has been made in the measures for carrying out the recommendations made by Mr. Tagart in his report. The position is set out in detail in a report by the officer who was allocated for special duty with the Masarwa which is reproduced in the last report of the League of Nations Advisory Committee of Experts on Slavery. It is there explained that the acting chief of the Bamangwato tribe has agreed to implement the policy of

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    incorporating the Masarwa as ordinary tribesmen in the body politic of the Bamangwato enjoying the traditional rights and subject to the traditional obligations of tribesmen, and that is is now realised by the Bamangwato and by the Masarwa that compulsory service is a thing of the past.
    Mr. Lunn: Is it not a fact that in 1933 we celebrated the centenary of the abolition of slavery?
    Lord Stanley: In commenting on the report which I mentioned, the League of Nations Advisory Committee have stated that it seems possible to say that the status of the Masarwa is not one of slavery.

    SOUTH AFRICA (HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES).
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in reference to the possible transference of areas in South Africa to the Union of South Africa, he has made, or will make, direct inquiries of the native chiefs in the areas concerned with a view to ascertaining their own and the native opinion on the matter?
    Lord Stanley: The position in regard to this matter remains as stated in my answer to the hon. Member's question on 14th June. When the memoranda by the Union Government are ready for issue it is contemplated that translations in the native languages should be made available in the territories. This will enable the chiefs and their people to judge what the position would be in the event of transfer.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does that imply that steps will be taken to ascertain the opinion of the chiefs, and further, is the Noble Lord aware that many of these chiefs have expressed considerable dubiety concerning the possible transfer of these areas?
    Lord Stanley: All that the chiefs will be asked to do is to consider documents and study the terms which the Union Government have in mind. There is at this juncture no question of formal consultation with the chiefs about transfer.

    BRITISH COLUMBIA (FAIRBRIDGE FARM SCHOOL SOCIETY).
    Mr. Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been called to the gift of a farm in British Columbia to the Fair-bridge Farm School Society; and whether he will co-operate with the Association in the migration of boys to this new school?
    Lord Stanley: I was glad to learn of this generous gift to the Fairbridge Society. I understand that the Society propose to use the estate in question for the purpose of giving practical mainland farming experience to the older boys from the Prince of Wales Fairbridge Farm School, situated on Vancouver Island, before they go to employment in the Province. There is thus no question of establishing a new farm school with the gift. The Government's financial cooperation and assistance in respect of the Vancouver School will, of course, continue as before.
    Mr. Duncan: Will there be room for more boys from this country as a result of this very generous gift?
    Lord Stanley: I do not think I can answer that question without notice. I rather think it is a question of the extension of training rather than of taking more boys.
    Mr. T. Smith: Is it not a fact that in Canada there are more than enough boys to fill the Fairbridge Farm School, and many more?
    Mr. Robert Gibson: Will the Minister keep in mind that in Scotland more than 1,000,000 acres are available for reclaiming as farm land?

    EIRE (MIGRANTS TO GREAT BRITAIN).
    Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs when the report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the question of Irish immigration into Great Britain will be published?
    Lord Stanley: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) on 3rd December last, of which I am sending him a copy. This contains the information obtained by the Inter-Departmental Committee which inquired into the question.
    Sir T. Moore: Can my Noble Friend say whether the report will deal with the obvious advantages hitherto to Great Britain through the immigration of Irishmen into this country?

  AFFORESTATION.

    SHETLAND ISLES.
    Mr. Leslieasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, whether, in view of the success achieved in the planting of trees in wind-swept peat land, the 'Commissioners will consider trying a similar experiment in the Shetland Isles?
    Colonel Sir George Courthope (Forestry Commissioner): The Forestry Commissioners are not prepared to undertake an experiment in the planting of trees in the Shetland Isles as they are convinced there would be no prospect of success.
    Mr. Leslie: Is it not the case that the planting of trees has been successful in the Western Isles, and therefore, why should it not be done in the Shetland Isles? Why have the Commissioners come to this conclusion? Have they made any experiment, or taken expert advice?

    Constituency.

    Area acquired by Forestry Commission.

    Area planted to date.

    Area remaining to plant.

    Number of Forest Workers' Holdings.

    Acres.

    Acres.

    Acres.

    South-West Norfolk

    …

    …

    30,000

    25,600

    2,700

    102

    South Norfolk

    …

    …

    8,400

    3,400

    2,900

    36

    Bury St. Edmunds

    …

    …

    14,400

    6,100

    5,600

    51

  TRANSPORT.

    GOODS VEHICLES (OVERLOADING).
    Mr. Remerasked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been called to the case tried recently before the Macclesfield borough magistrates where a lorry owner has paid duty applying to a 2½-ton lorry which actually weighed 2 tons 16 cwts.; that all chassis manufacturers are trying to keep their lorries, unladen weight, under 2½ tons; that the change of tyres even involves an alteration of this weight; that the whole objective is to keep the weight down to enable the vehicle to travel at 3o miles
    Sir G. Courthope: We were advised by experts, and we came to this conclusion without any hesitation.
    Major Neven-Spenceasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, whether he is aware that a part of the Kergord Estate, in Weisdale, Shetland, was planted with trees some years ago; and whether he will undertake to have the present state of this plantation reported upon by an expert?
    Sir G. Courthope: The Forestry Commissioners are aware that a small plantation was made in Weisdale, Shetland, some years ago and they will arrange to have it inspected.

    STATISTICS (NORFOLK AND SUFFOLK).
    Mr. Parkerasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, the area owned by the Commission, the land already planted and plantable, and the number of forest workers' holdings in the constituencies of South-West Norfolk, South Norfolk and Bury St. Edmunds, respectively?
    Sir G. Courthope: The answer contains a table of figures. The hon. Member will, therefore, perhaps allow me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    an hour; and that, consequently, a very large number of dangerous vehicles are travelling on the road; and whether he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to deal with the situation?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Captain Austin Hudson): My attention had not been called to this particular case. My hon. Friend will, however, be glad to know that regulations are now being drafted to implement recommendations recently made by the Transport Advisory Council with regard to the overloading of goods vehicles.

    FERRY, JARROW.
    Miss Wilkinsonasked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet received any reply to his communication about the Jarrow Ferry; and whether he is now in a position to deal with the increasing difficulties of the situation at this crossing?
    Captain Hudson: My right hon. Friend has not yet received a reply to his last letter to the county councils, and I regret, therefore, that I am not in a position to add to his statement of 31st May.
    Miss Wilkinson: In view of the fact that the statement on 31st May foreshadowed that there must be unanimity among the Tyneside authorities, and that that will mean a great deal of delay, however quickly they reply, and in view of the fact that the ferry will close down at the end of the year, is something going to be done before the ferry is closed?
    Captain Hudson: We are hoping that the county councils will reply to our letter.
    Miss Wilkinson: Has not the hon. and gallant Gentleman been making that reply for months and months? He knows what the facts are and he knows that the ferry is to be closed—is he going to do something?

    MOTOR ACCIDENTS (COMPENSATION).
    Mr. Higgsasked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been directed to the fact that third-party claims against motorists are becoming much more costly; and will he investigate the matter with the object of regulating the amount of compensation payable?
    Captain Hudson: I am aware of the tendency to which my hon. Friend refers. The question, however, of any amendment of the law designed to limit compensation for accidents raises wide issues which would extend beyond the scope of my Department.
    Mr. Neil Maclean: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman trying to arrange for something to be done to limit the number of accidents?

    AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that gas masks are being
    1106
    offered for sale at l0s. each; and whether these gas masks have been approved by the Home Office; and whether it is part of the policy of the Government to encourage people to buy their own gas masks?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): I am aware that respirators are being offered for sale: but no such respirator has been approved by the Home Office unless it bears the Home Office certification mark. The object of the mark system is to meet any special demand at home or overseas; it is the Government's policy to supply respirators for the whole of the civilian population free of charge.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the hon. Gentleman think it well that there should be this gross exploitation of the fears of the people, seeing that there are already millions of official gas masks available?
    Mr. Lloyd:The more it is known that these gas masks are being kept available by the Government, the better.
    Mr. Sorensen: In that case, is it desirable to allow commercial exploitation of gas masks?
    Mr. Lloyd: My right hon. Friend has no power to alter that.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: In view of the danger of uncontrolled sale, will the Minister consider the prohibition of the sale of gas masks without Government approval?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Miss Wilkinson: Is the Minister's refusal due to the fact that people in more comfortable circumstances hope to get better quality gas masks at a higher price?
    Mr. Duncanasked the Home Secretary whether he will make a statement regarding the visit of the Under-Secretary of State to certain London boroughs to inspect the progress of air-raid precautions schemes; and whether he is satisfied with that progress?
    Mr. Lloyd: I visited Islington, BethnaI Green, Stepney, Wandsworth and Westminster and saw various aspects of the air-raid precautions activities in each borough. The results achieved in the London boroughs vary. No one would seek to disguise the fact that there is still a great deal to the done, but steady progress is being made, and I am confident

    1107
    that all concerned are anxious to see that progress accelerated.
    Mr. Duncan: If it is true, as was stated in the "Times" last week, that London is behind the provinces, will my hon. Friend do everything he can to co-operate with the London boroughs to see that London is brought up to standard?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think the London local authorities do wish to make progress now as quickly as possible.
    Colonel Sandeman Allen: Has it not always been true that what Manchester thinks to-day, London thinks tomorrow?
    Sir Arthur Salter: In view of the special difficulty and danger in the case of London, does not my hon. Friend think it really essential to have more centralisation in authority and in initiative for the whole London area?
    Mr. Duncanasked the Home Secretary how many and which London boroughs have now gas-mask stores in working order; and whether he will urge all those that have not, the necessity of providing them, in view of the large number of gas-masks now available for distribution to such stores?
    Mr. Lloyd: In a circular addressed to local authorities last week, my right hon. Friend expressed the hope that arrangements for the local storage of respirators would be so expedited as to enable supplies for all the larger centres of population to be accepted before the end of August. Two boroughs in London already have a fully stocked store and in a number of other boroughs steps are being taken which should enable delivery of respirators to be accepted within the period mentioned in the circular.

    HACKNEY CARRIAGES AND PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLES (COMMITTEE).
    Mr. Crowderasked the Home Secretary how often the Committee investigating the question of competition between the taximeter-cab industry and the private motor-hire firms will meet; and whether arrangements can be made for a separate report regarding the London area to be made available before Parliament rises for the Summer Recess?
    Mr. Lloyd: It is for the Committee to decide when and how often they shall meet, and I understand that arrangements for the first few meetings have already been made. As my right hon. Friend stated in his reply to the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. Benjamin Smith) on 4th July, the Committee have been specifically asked to deal first with the position in London and to consider whether it is practicable to make any recommendation as regards London in advance of their other recommendations. My right hon. Friend must leave it to the Committee to decide whether and when such an interim report can be furnished.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Can the Minister say whether any meetings have in fact taken place?
    Mr. Lloyd: Not without notice.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    EX-SERVICE MEN.
    Sir Smedley Crookeasked the Minister of Labour whether he has now decided to refer to the King's Roll National Council the suggestion as to the further employment of ex-service men; and what the Council intend to do in the matter?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend's suggestion will come before the Council at its next meeting.

    BENEFIT AND ASSISTANCE (HOLIDAY PAYMENTS).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the position in Greenock arising out of the holiday pay credit deductions from unemployment benefit payments and Unemployment Assistance Board allowances, as set out in the letter sent to him by the hon. Member for Greenock?
    Mr. E. Brown: Claims for unemployment benefit made at Greenock during the recent holiday period were determined by the statutory authorities in accordance with the leading decisions of the Umpire and, in particular, Decision No. 2569/38, a copy of which I circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT for 7th July, 1938. As regards unemployment

    1109
    assistance I would refer the hon. and learned Member to my reply to him on 30th June last.

    HOME PRODUCTION OF FEEDING STUFFS.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Prime Minister whether he will find time for the consideration of the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Evesham in connection with the home production of feeding stuffs?
    [That, in view of the vulnerable position occupied during war by agriculture in respect of the importation of feeding stuffs, this House urges on the Government the need for developing at home supplies of suitable commodities by permitting the cultivation of additional acreage of potatoes which are not suitable for human consumption but which can be feed to pigs, by using surplus fish for the production of fish-meal for poultry feeding, and by establishing national factories for the supply of these two feeding stuffs to the rearers of pigs and poultry.]
    The Prime Minister: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave him on 4th May last.
    Mr. De la Bère: In view of the fact that no time has been found in which to debate this Motion, will the Prime Minister give an assurance to the House that the land will no longer be forgotten and that never again shall the countryside be neglected?
    Mr. George Griffiths: Did not the Prime Minister answer the hon. Member at Kettering the other day?

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (BORROWING).
    Mr. Lambertasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent the Treasury exercises control over proposed borrowings by local authorities?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): Subject to minor exceptions, local authorities cannot borrow money except with the express approval of Parliament or of a Minister or Government Department acting under statutory powers. In no such case is the Treasury
    1110
    itself the sanctioning authority although it has certain special functions, as under Standing Orders 207 and 208, in relation to London County Council Money Bills. When a local authority has received authority for a scheme it may borrow itself from the public or if it is eligible to borrow from the Local Loans Fund and wishes to do so it may apply to the Public Works Loan Commissioners. The Treasury has certain duties in connection with the Local Loans Fund including the duty of submitting to Parliament periodically Public Works Loan Bills which settle the total amounts that the fund may lend.
    Mr. Lambert: In view of the very great increase in borrowing by local authorities, would it not be wise if these regulations were tightened up?
    Sir J. Simon: My right hon. Friend will recall that the Select Committee on Estimates in 1932 went into this question of the control exercised by Government Departments over borrowing by local authorities and they came to the conclusion that central control was not needed. It is not really borrowing by local authorities which is the main element in the annual capital issues in this country.
    Mr. Watkins: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is no evidence that local authorities abuse their present powers in this matter?
    Mr. Leach: Is not the money spent by local authorities the best-spent money of all?

    TAX OFFICES (STAFF, OVERTIME PAY).
    Mr. Messerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether authority has yet been given to the Inland Revenue Department to pay arrears of overtime pay due to the staff in the office of collectors of taxes under the award of the Civil Service Arbitration Tribunal; and whether, in view of the award being dated 12th May, 1938, he will state the reason for the delay in the issue of Treasury authority for the payment?
    Sir J. Simon: Yes, Sir. The delay was due to the fact that difficulties arose with regard to the application of the award to certain classes of officers.

    ANGLO-TURKISH (ARMAMENTS CREDIT) AGREEMENT BILL.
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what types of armaments are to be exported from this country under the provisions of the Anglo-Turkish (Armaments Credit) Agreement Bill?
    Sir J. Simon: The agreement applies only to such contracts as are concluded with the prior approval of His Majesty's Government and up to the present no contracts have been submitted by the Turkish Government for such approval. I understand, however, that the contracts which the Turkish Government have in mind are mainly for their naval requirements.
    Mr. Bellenger: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that latter piece of information, may I ask him to give me, in a little more detail, of what these naval armaments consist? Are they guns or ships?
    Sir J. Simon: I could not answer that question. I do not think anybody could answer it. I do not think that the proposals have yet been put forward in detail, but the condition that no agreement can be made except with the authority of His Majesty's Government is, of course, a very effective security that it will not be to the prejudice or disadvantage of our own rearmament programme.
    Mr. Bellenger: While not disagreeing with the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's answer, may I ask him to indicate to the House whether it will be possible, and how it will be possible, to find out how the taxpayers' money is being spent on these armaments that are being financed?
    Mr. Thurtle: Is not this information precisely the kind of information which potential enemies would like to get?
    Mr. E. Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) and those associated with him bore no ill-will to the Turkish Government when the issue was raised last week in Debate?

    BRITISH AIRWAYS, LIMITED.
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Air whether the changes in
    1112
    British Airways, Limited, contemplated have yet been carried out?
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Kingsley Wood): Negotiations are now proceeding with the company for the establishment of certain European services. It has not yet been found practicable to implement the recommendations in regard to the internal organisation of the company, but I can assure the hon. Member that they are not being lost sight of.
    Mr. Mender: Has not a new chairman or director recently been appointed?
    Sir K. Wood: Not a chairman.

    ACCIDENT, ROYAL ALBERT DOCK.
    Mr. Thorneasked the Home Secretary whether he has seen the recommendation of the jury, at an inquest held on a man who was killed in the Royal Albert Dock on Tuesday last, that the Board of Trade should revise the signals between the hatchways and winchmen; and whether he intends to take any action in this matter?
    Mr. Lloyd: The regulations under the Factories Act for loading and unloading ships do not prescribe particular codes of signals, and I understand that methods of signalling vary according to circumstances; but the matter will be considered further.
    Mr. Thorne: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the jury recommended that the attention of the President of the Board of Trade should be drawn to the necessity for regulating the system of signals between the winchmen and the other men engaged on work of this kind?
    Mr. Lloyd: I did not see that, but the matter will be considered further.

    CHINA (ECONOMIC ASSISTANCE).
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Prime Minister what action His Majesty's Government have taken, or propose to take, to assist the Chinese Government to stabilise its currency; and what specific service the Government are rendering towards the economic assistance of China?
    Mr. Butler: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 14th June to

    1113
    my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) to which I have nothing to add.

  PALESTINE.

    GRAND MUFTI.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to initiate conversations with the French Government concerning the continued residence of the Mufti in Beirut?
    Mr. Butler: As I informed the hon. and gallant Member on 29th June, close contact has been and is being maintained with the French Government.

    SITUATION.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has a statement to make regarding recent disorder and murder in Palestine and the recent steps taken to deal with the situation?
    Mr. M. MacDonald: I regret to state that there were yesterday further serious acts of violence in a number of centres in Palestine, details of which have appeared in the Press. His Majesty's Ship "Repulse" is remaining at Haifa, and 20 officers and 254 men have been landed from her to assist in the work of maintaining order. The 1st Battalion Irish Guards arrived in Palestine yesterday, and the 1st Battalion Essex Regiment are due there to-day. The First Squadron 11th Hussars, an armoured car regiment, are arriving in Palestine tomorrow and the other two squadrons on the following day. As I said in answer to questions yesterday, I am in communication with the High Commissioner regarding the recruitment of additional police.
    Mr. Logan: Is there any row in Palestine in regard to these Irish immigrants, the Irish Guards?
    Mr. McGovern: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of this is traceable to the activities of Mussolini and Hitler, and whether the reports in the Press that a large number of revolvers and wire-cutting implements have been found with German marks on them are true?
    Mr. MacDonald: With regard to the first part of the question, I have no evidence that leads to that conclusion. With regard to the second part, I have no information.

    CALDERSTONES MENTAL HOSPITAL (THOMAS FISHER).
    Mr. Loganasked the Minister of Health why Thomas Fisher, of 10, Hutton Street, after being out of Calder-stones institution five years, was recalled; and is he aware that the doctor said he could be considered for release if he had a permanent job?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernays): I am informed that the authorities at Calder-stones recalled the patient because questions had arisen as to the suitability of the occupation and the adequacy of the supervision available at his home. The Board of Control, however, on 21st June last asked the committee to reconsider the matter and to furnish their observations on the suitability of Mr. Fisher for discharge. As a result, it has been decided to discharge the patient.
    Mr. Logan: Does not the hon. Gentleman think it time that investigation was made into these cases, as it is only when information is brought to this House that these cases ought to be discharged and that this kind of irregularity ought not to exist at all, that action is taken; and must it not be understood among the ordinary rank and file of unemployed people that Bedlam is natural for them to occupy their time in? Will he inquire into these conditions?
    Mr. Bernays: My right hon. Friend appreciates the hon. Member's anxiety that these patients on licence should not be recalled unnecessarily. The Board of Control have in fact issued a circular, and my right hon. Friend is in communication with the authorities concerned.
    Mr. Logan: Will the hon. Gentleman investigate in regard to this institution and examine the officials, to see whether they are all right?

    NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
    Mr. Loganasked the Minister of Health whether instead of charging costs

    1115
    of references to regional medical officers and regional dental officers to the administration account of an approved approved society, he will allow such expenses to be charged to the benefit fund account?
    Mr. Bernays: The cost of references by an approved society to regional medical and dental officers is an expense of administration, and in accordance with the provisions of Section 102 (1) of the National Health Insurance Act, 1936, is properly chargeable to the administration account.
    Mr. Logan: In view of the importance of this question, is it not possible to change this account, which really deals with the health of the people, to the benefit fund account, so as to enable the administration account to have its proper quota and the benefit fund account to give additional benefits to the members?
    Mr. Bernays: Under the Statute the administration expenses have to go down to the administration account, and I should imagine that the remedy would be to apply for a larger amount for the administration account, but I cannot assure the hon. Member that if they make that application it will be granted.

    HOUSING (COUNTY DURHAM).
    Mr. W. Joseph Stewartasked the Minister of Health the number of houses built in rural and urban areas in the county of Durham since 1932 and the estimated number necessary to be built to meet the requirements of the county?
    Mr. Bernays: From 1st April, 1933, to 31st March, 1938, the number of houses completed by or on behalf of local authorities and by private enterprise in the county of Durham was 21,172 and 27,295, respectively. I regret that the information available does not enable me to give with any degree of accuracy the estimate referred to in the last part of the question.
    Mr. Stewart: Can the hon. Member say that he is satisfied with the progress that is being made in those areas in regard to the housing of the people?
    Mr. Bernays: Yes, Sir. The Durham authorities have been extremely active and have done very well.
    Mr. R. Gibson: Can the hon. Member say how many of these houses are timber houses?

    ABYSSINIA.
    Mr. Arthur Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Italian authorities have recently been recruiting natives in Aden and British Somaliland for military service in Ethiopia; whether such recruiting has been carried on with the knowledge and approval of the British authorities; and whether he will take steps to prevent such recruiting?
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): I am not aware that the position is as stated by the hon. Member, and such recruitment is not permitted by the authorities in either British Somaliland or Aden.
    Mr. Henderson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the information contained in this question has been received from a reliable authority, and will he make inquiries into the matters contained in the question?
    Mr. MacDonald: I have no such information, and I am not aware that it has come from any reliable authority. If the hon. Member has any such information, I should be grateful if he would let me have it, so that I can examine it.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Prime Minister what business it is proposed to take in the event of the Motion for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule being carried?
The Prime Minister: We propose to move the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule in order to obtain the first eight Orders on the Paper.
Mr. Buchanan: On a point of Order. I notice that the Prime Minister has put down a Motion which includes the Divorce and Nullity of Marriage (Scotland) Bill [Lords]. May I ask whether this Bill has been taken over by the Government? While it is true that the Standing Order dealing with this matter says in effect that they can move for any "specified business," I think, if you

1117
read the Standing Order, it will convey the idea of "specified business" being Government business and, therefore, that it is a straining of the Standing Order that the Government are now moving such a Motion for the first time. I would like the Prime Minister or you, Mr. Speaker, to inform me whether this has ever been clone before, that the Government, before announcing the taking-over of a Bill, have moved the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule in regard to it, and might I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to rule that this is a precedent that is now being established? In my time I cannot recollect the Government ever moving the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule for non-Government business.
Mr. Speaker: I cannot without notice give the hon. Member any previous instance of a similar kind, but I know that it has been the practice in the past. Of course, "specified business" does not necessarily mean Government business.
Mr. Buchanan: But the Standing Order says that the Government shall give notice for "specified business."
Mr. Speaker: That is what they have done.
Mr. Buchanan: Yes, that may be true, but on the reading of the Standing Order my feeling is that "specified business" means Government business, and I submit that it is straining the Standing Order for the Government, without any notice, suddenly to take over a Private Bill and move, by a Motion which is not discussible, the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule for non-Government business.
Mr. Stephen: On previous occasions have not the Government always intimated that they were taking over responsibility for a Measure before putting this Motion on the Paper?
Mr. Speaker: I cannot give that information without notice.
Mr. Neil Maclean: Is it not a fact that as this Motion is placed on the Paper, the House can vote on it in two parts, first on the Government business, and secondly on the Divorce Bill?
Sir T. Moore: Did not the Prime Minister indicate yesterday that he would
1118
follow the course that he is proposing to follow to-day?
Mr. Maclean: May I have a reply to my question?
Mr. Speaker: I do not see how we can divide this Motion into two separate Motions, because it does not relate to two Standing Orders.
Mr. Maclean: It has been the practice during the last ten years at least, if not the last 20 years, where instances of this kind have occurred, for two votes to be taken, one upon Government business and the other upon the business which the Government have not taken over.
Mr. Speaker: I do not think that this particular Motion has been divided into two. That is done only when the Motion deals with two different Standing Orders.
Mr. Maclean: Are we to take it that the Government are asking for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule on particular business for which they are not taking responsibility?
Mr. Speaker: It is on specified business according to the Standing Order.
Mr. Maclean: They are not taking responsibility for that specified business. This is a Private Member's Bill.
Mr. Stephen: In view of the fact that we can get no specific information as to whether this has ever been done before without the Government taking the responsibility for the Measure mentioned in the Motion, will not the Prime Minister withdraw this Motion to-day?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must not imply that I said it had never been done before. It has been done before. I only said that I could not give the specific occasion without notice.
Mr. Stephen: The point I was asking was whether it had ever been done before without the Government taking responsibility for the Measure mentioned in the Motion.
Mr. Speaker: I have said that it has been done before, but I cannot give the occasion without notice.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business and on the Divorce and Nullity of Marriage (Scotland) Bill [Lords] be exempted,

1119
at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)." —[The Prime Minister.]

Division No. 294.]

AYES.

[3.43 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Duekworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Maitland, A.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Albery, Sir lrving

Duggan, H. J.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Duncan, J. A. L.

Marsden, Commander A.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Eastwood, J. F.

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (So'h Univ's)

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Apsley, Lord

Ellis, Sir G.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Aske, Sir R. W.

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

Assheton, R.

Elmley, Viscount

Morgan, R. H.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Emery, J. F.

Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Findlay, Sir E.

Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Fleming, E. L.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Baxter, A. Beverley

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Peake, O.

Beauohamp, Sir B. C.

Furness, S. N.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Petherick, M.

Beit, Sir A. L.

Gitmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Gledhill, G.

Pilkington, R.

Bernays, R. H.

Gluckstein, L. H.

Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

Bird, Sir R. B.

Gower, Sir R. V.

Procter, Major H. A.

Blair, Sir R.

Granville, E. L.

Radford, E. A.

Boulton, W. W.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Ramsbotham, H.

Boyee, H. Leslie

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Grimston, R. V.

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Brass, Sir W.

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Hambro A. V.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Hannah, I. C.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

Harbord, A.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Bull, B. B.

Harvey, Sir G.

Remer, J. R.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Butcher, H. W.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Rowlands, G.

Butler, R. A

Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R

Caine, G. R. Hall.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Hepworth, J.

Russell, Sir Alexander

Cartland, J. R. H.

Higgs, W. F.

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Carver, Major W. H.

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Cary, R. A.

Holdsworth, H.

Salmon, Sir I.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Holmes, J. S.

Salt, E. W.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Samuel, M. R. A.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Hopkinson, A.

Sandeman, Sir N. S.

Channon, H.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Scott, Lord William

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Selley, H. R.

Christie, J. A.

Hunloke, H. P.

Shakespeare, G. H.

Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Hunter, T.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Clarry, Sir Reginald

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Colfox, Major W. P.

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Colman, N. C. D.

Keeling, E. H.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

Colville, Rt. Hon. John

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Smith, Sir Louis (Hallam)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Kimball, L.

Smithers, Sir W.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Cox, H. B. Trevor

Leech, Sir J. W.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Cranborne, Viscount

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Spens, W. P.

Craven-Ellis, W.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

Lewis, O.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Liddall, W. S.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Cruddas, Col. B.

Lindsay, K. M.

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Davidson, Viscountess

Lipson, D. L.

Storey, S.

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Lloyd, G. W.

Stourton, Major Hon. J. J

De Chair, S. S.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

De la Bère, R.

Loftus. P. C.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Denville, Alfred

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Dixon, Capt. Rt. Hon. H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Doland, G. F.

MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Donner, P. W.

Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

Dower, Major A. V. G.

McKie, J. H.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Drewe, C.

Maonamara, Major J. R. J.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Macquisten, F. A.

Turton, R. H.

The House divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 128.

Wakefield, W. W.

Wayland, Sir W. A.

Wise, A. R.

Walker-Smith, Sir J.

Wells, Sir Sydney

Withers, Sir J. J.

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsiey

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Wragg, H.

Warrender, Sir V.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Mr. Munro and Major Herbert.

NOES.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Hayday, A.

Price, M. P.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Pritt, D. N.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Riley, B.

Barr, J.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Ritson, J.

Batey, J.

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Bellenger F. J.

Hollins, A.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Hopkin, D.

Rothschild, J. A. de

Benson, G.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Sanders, W. S.

Bevan, A.

Jagger, J.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Bromfield, W.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Sexton, T. M.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Silkin, L.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

John, W.

Silverman, S. S.

Buchanan, G.

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Simpson, F. B.

Burke, W. A.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Charleton, H. C.

Kirby, B. V.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Chater, D.

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Cluse, W. S.

Lathan, G.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Collindridge, F.

Lawson, J. J.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Cove, W. G.

Leach, W.

Sorensen, R. W.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Lee, F.

Stephen, C.

Daggar, G.

Leonard, W.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Leslie, J. R.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Logan, D. G.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lunn, W.

Thorne, W.

Day, H.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Thurtle, E.

Dobbie, W.

McEntee, V. La T.

Tinker, J. J.

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

McGhee, H. G.

Tomlinson, G.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

McGovern, J.

Viant, S. P.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Maclean, N.

Walkden, A. G.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R.T. H.

Mander, G. le M.

Walker, J.

Frankel, D.

Marklew, E.

Watkins, F. C.

Gallacher, W.

Marshall, F.

Watson, W. McL.

Gardner, B. W.

Maxton, J.

White, H. Graham

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Messer, F.

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Montague, F,

Wilkinson, Ellen

Gibson, R. (Greenook)

Moreing, A. C.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Grenfell, D. R.

Owen, Major G.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Paling, W.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Parker, J.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Groves, T. E.

Parkinson, J. A.

Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

Pearson, A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Mr. Mathers and Mr. Adamson.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Poole, C. C.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Herring Industry Bill, without Amendment.
Amendments to—
West Thurrock Estate Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1938 (REVISED ESTIMATE).
Revised Estimate presented, of the sums required in the year ending 31st March, 1939, for Eire Services and Irish Land Purchase Services [by Command]; Referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 159.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  FINANCE BILL.
  As amended, further considered.
  NEW CLAUSE.— (Deduction for purposes of National Defence Contribution and Income Tax of expenditure for protection of employees of factories, etc., against air-raids.)
  A sum amounting to one-fifth of any expenditure other than expenditure properly chargeable against revenue for the year in which such expenditure is incurred approved by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and actually incurred in providing protection for the employees of factories, works and industrial premises again air raids, may, notwithstanding anything in the Income Tax Acts, be deducted in computing the amount of the profits or gains assessable to national defence contribution or to income tax in the year in which such expenditure was incurred, and a fifth in each of the following four years:
  Provided always that if at any time a shelter provided for such protection shall be substantially used for a purpose other than for protection from air raids, the allowance provided for such shelter by this section shall cease to be granted in that year and the following years.—[Mr. Craven-Ellis.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  3.54 p.m.
  Mr. Craven-Ellis: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  This new Clause, which is on the Order Paper in the names of myself and a number of my colleagues, relates to expenditure on the part of industrialists for the purpose of giving their employés protection against possible air raids. At the moment they are in the position that if they comply with the wish of the Home Office that they should provide protection, there is nothing in the Income Tax law which will allow that expenditure to be deducted in arriving at the profits of the year. Under the law as it is at present it is treated as capital expenditure. It is suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give favourable consideration to the request for this allowance and for it being spread over five years. It is a new departure to ask private enterprise to provide protection of this kind. Industrialists have shown their willingness to meet the wishes of the Home Office but, quite rightly, they say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought in return to give them some consideration,
  1132
  and I do not think that is unreasonable. Who are the people who will have to stand the cost of such work as providing trenches, strengthening buildings or providing shelters? It is the ordinary shareholders, who have already suffered the imposition of N.D.C. The House has always shown itself to be fair, even to private enterprise, when it is willing to take part in what is nothing more or less than a public service.
  It has also to be remembered that in this connection different industries find themselves in different circumstances. Some are located in densely built-up areas, where the strengthening of a building may be an extremely costly process; and the matter does not end there, because the loss of productive space must also be taken into account, and that will persist for longer than the five-year period for which I am asking this relief. In order that the House may have some knowledge of what the provision of shelters and general protection means I have drawn up a schedule of 77 firms, all of which have prepared protection schemes, with an estimate of the cost to them, and I will quote a few cases. Number one, a marine engineering and shipbuilding firm, employs 4,000 people and proposes to provide shelters and trenches at an estimated cost of £12,500, which is £3.125 per employé. The second, a rubber firm, employs 3,700 workpeople, and the cost there is £3·5 per employé. An electrical power generating station is in a very different position from the industries which I have just named, because there it will cost £60,000 to provide protection for the 3,000 employés, which is equivalent to £20 per employé. I have in this schedule firms employing very large numbers of workpeople. One tobacco firm employ 22,500 and it will cost them £70,000. I hope, therefore, that the House will not turn a deaf ear to this appeal, because it is reasonable that some consideration should be shown to those employers who are willing and ready to act in co-operation with the Home Office in this matter of aerial defence; and I feel that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who throughout the proceedings on this Bill has shown himself to be extremely reasonable and fair, will give some consideration to this new Clause.
  4.0 p.m.
  Sir John Mellor: I beg to second the Motion.

  1133
  The Government through the Home Secretary have laid it down that it is the duty of owners of businesses to provide protection against air raids for their employés. In doing so they have insisted upon what is really a very far-reaching proposition. I think that the Home Secretary in issuing directions to employers in that way should very carefully consider, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will very carefully consider, the effect upon the great variety of businesses concerned. In this new Clause we are dealing solely with the question of capital expenditure. The Chancellor has already made a certain concession with regard to Schedule A Income Tax and rating assessments, but I suggest that although that has its value it is a purely negative value. The Home Secretary also indicated that in respect of air-raid precaution works generous maintenance allowances would be given, but of course that again is quite indefinite. I feel that expenditure upon structural works for the purpose of protection against attack from the air certainly creates no asset, at least nothing which could be called an asset in any business sense of the word, for the reason that it is quite impossible to expect that any such works would ever produce any revenue.
  I think we ought to consider how such works are to be financed from the point of view of the business. If the cost of, say, shelters, is to be found out of capital, certainly that amount ought to be written off as a loss as soon as it is incurred, and certainly no prudent business man would suggest that he could reasonably borrow the amount to meet the cost of such works. If on the other hand it has to be found out of the income of the business year by year, then certainly it must involve a reduction of the dividend paid to the ordinary shareholder. The senior Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis) pointed out that this will be a charge really upon the ordinary shareholder, who already exclusively has to bear the charge of National Defence Contribution. If it is suggested, as I rather think the Home Secretary suggested in a Debate on the subject, that it is a moral duty upon employers to provide this protection for their employés, surely it is a burden which ought to be borne by all the proprietors of the business and not exclusively by the ordinary shareholders. If on the other hand it is suggested that
  1134
  it is a business risk against which people ought to make provision in the ordinary course of business, I think it ought to be borne in mind that in the event of war, which is the only event in which these precautions will come into play and be of any advantage to the business, there is a very strong probability that the business will come under Government control, and if that business is not sufficiently important from the point of view of our national activity at that time to come under Government control, it is very likely that it will be shut down altogether, or at least very drastically curtailed in its enterprise.
  We are not asking for any direct Government contribution; at least we are not asking for it in this new Clause. All we are asking for is that businesses should not be taxed upon the profits which they cannot truly be said to earn in the particular year, for this reason, that any prudent business man would regard the cost of air-raid precaution works as a charge against his profits. If he does so, I suggest that it is only fair that the Government should also recognise that fact and allow him to make an appropriate deduction in respect of his Income Tax and National Defence Contribution. In the new Clause it is suggested that these deductions should be spread over a five years' period, which would make it more favourable, I suggest, from the point of view of the revenue. I hope very much that the Chancellor will consider very carefully the position in which the business man finds himself when he is really trying to carry out the invitation of the Home Secretary to provide proper protection for his employés against air raids.
  4.7 p.m.
  Sir Patrick Hannon: I wish to support the new Clause. Nobody knows better than my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary the serious burden imposed on large works in this country in making anything approaching adequate provision for the safety of their workpeople in the event of the disaster of war. The substance of this new Clause is that an allowance of one-fifth should be made, extending over five years, in order to compensate the business for the risk undertaken, the expenditure involved and the deduction which has to be made from the profits of the concern in order to make this necessary provision. Surely if that

  1135
  is the effect of what is now a part of our national policy—the taking of precautions to safeguard the lives of our workpeople and the properties out of which they make their livelihood—the Government must take into consideration how far by any direct subsidy or financial contribution they can meet the responsibility in the direction suggested in this Clause.
  Those of us who are engaged in large industrial enterprises are certainly willing to do our best to meet the exigencies of the times and to conform with the moral obligations which rest upon us in meeting the great question of looking after our people and their safety; but surely we have a right to ask that in doing that we ought to have some consideration from the Government in the matter. Take some of the larger concerns engaged in production on a large scale, and in some cases showing considerable activity in the preparation of armaments. Is the whole responsibility for the capital outlay in making adequate provisions for the safety of the workpeople to devolve entirely on the company? It is very unfair that the Chancellor should expect that the entire burden should be borne so. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor) has said, in any carefully managed business the first charge upon profits expended in the provision of these safeguards would be regarded as a loss. As any well-managed company must from year to year, during a period of five years, provide one-fifth of the expenditure for this necessary work as a loss incurred in the management of the company, we feel that we ought to have sympathetic consideration from the Government. The proposals of the Clause are reasonable and do not make any startling suggestion that the Government could not accept, and I hope very much that the Chancellor will see his way to meet us in the matter.
  4.10 p.m.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: I recognise that the problem we are discussing is one of very considerable complexity and that already the Government have done a certain amount. I would like to pay that tribute to them, because already, so far as Schedule A assessments are concerned in respect of buildings erected for this purpose, provided they are used for no other purpose, they are to be free of assessment, and we know that only this week we shall
  1136
  have two Bills, one of them English and one Scottish, dealing with the exemption of air-raid shelters from assessment to local rates. We also know that the Government, after long negotiations, have come to an arrangement with the local authorities whereby about 75 per cent. of the expenditure incurred by the local authorities in the defence of the civilian population, will be a State charge. I took the view that they could not defray the whole of it, because if you have local administration without local responsibility you get wasteful administration. That is quite obviously true. If anyone is entitled to spend money which he has not the responsibility of raising, he will be wasteful. That is commonly understood.
  Let me turn to another aspect of the problem. My hon. Friend the Member for Moseley (Sir P. Hannon) is familiar with the problem as it presents itself in the great industrial establishments of Birmingham. I have been examining the problem in an industry with which I have some connection, electricity supply. I am associated with the company side of the industry, two-thirds of which, I know, is municipal. Our problem is of even greater complexity, because every one will expect generation to be carried on even while an air raid is progressing, and that is going to impose on the electricity supply industry, and equally on the gas industry and the water supply industry, very heavy expenditure, some of it capital expenditure and some of it a form of current expenditure. I take it that the current expenditure will be a deductible charge against profits. Another problem arises under that heading. The Clause deals with capital expenditure, I understand, and the creation of an asset which has no economic or commercial value.
  Mr. Bellenger: Is the hon. Member right in saying that the new Clause refers to capital expenditure? Capital expenditure is usually not deductible from profits.
  Mr. Williams: That is why this Clause is moved. It refers to:
  "A sum amounting to one-fifth of any expenditure other than expenditure properly chargeable against revenue for the year."
  I take it that, just like ordinary precautions against fire, current expenses are an ordinary charge against revenue. But

  1137
  this is capital expenditure which is incurred in the long run for the purpose of national defence. It is not an economic asset, as such, of any value. The proposal is that this capital expenditure should be treated as if it were revenue expenditure, but that instead of the whole of it being written off in one year it should be written off in five years. It is very difficult to estimate what is going to be the magnitude of the capital expenditure forced upon industrial undertakings. I should not be at all surprised to find that for a year or so, at a rough guess, the electricity supply industry may find its expenditure in the neighbourhood of £200,000 or £250,000 a year, and a substantial part in the earlier years will be capital expenditure. These are very large sums which, in the interests of national defence, some undertakings will have to incur and others not, according to circumstances. Undertakings in areas which are more susceptible to attack than others will be called upon to incur much greater capital expenditure in relation to the total number of people they employ.
  There is another problem besides those which the Government have already tackled. It would be unfair and unjust criticism of the Government to complain that they have not been able to deal with the numerous problems both economic and defensive, which will arise in large-scale air raids, but, in any case, the Government should be grateful to the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis) for having raised this question. If it is not settled now it is bound to be raised later. This is a burden which is undertaken essentially in the national interest and not primarily as an individual interest, and it should at least be a national charge to a certain extent. As the State is now the sleeping partner in industry to the extent of 5s. 6d. in the £ in the balance of profits, plus a further amount in respect of the National Defence Contribution, when exceptional capital expenditure comes along the sleeping partner should be prepared to bear a fair part of that expenditure. In the days when Income Tax was not a very heavy charge the situation was different, but that charge is very heavy to-day, and it is only right that the sleeping partner, who does the least work and gets the most benefit, should bear a share of the burden. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find himself in a
  1138
  position to examine this proposal sympathetically, and even though he cannot go the whole way in accepting it, I hope he will be able to present some alternative which will have the effect of distributing the burden which will arise more equitably than is the case under the law as it stands at the moment.
  4.18 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): I am obliged to my hon. Friend who has just spoken for reminding the House that an effort has already been made in this Finance Bill to provide some relief in respect of air-raid precaution structures. It is to be found in Clause 17. I think that provision was generally approved by the House. I arrived at the conclusion that that Clause should be inserted in the Bill after examining the general problem from many points of view, not omitting the undoubtedly serious consideration urged by my hon. Friend who moved this Clause.
  I am afraid, however, I cannot accept this new Clause, and I will shortly state why. It is not that I do not recognise that a very large and heavy burden in some cases may be thrown on factories and works, in making provision for air-raid precautions. Unless we can get the world into a better state than it is at present that burden is likely to fall upon all undertakings—and I cannot limit it to those mainly prosperous firms who employ a large number of individuals. Nor do I say that the action of firms and factories in providing air-raid precautions is unconnected with the useful and effective carrying on of their businesses. I am sure that it will be found to be very necessary in connection with the carrying on of the businesses that there should be proper precautions of this kind provided.
  Let me take, not as a complete analogy, but as a useful illustration, something which can be set side by side with the present proposal. When I was Home Secretary I had the duty of carrying into law a Factory Bill, a very elaborate Measure which required all sorts of improvements in various directions in factories. Greater space, fire escapes, healthier places for washing and all the rest of it had to be provided for work-people in some cases, and all of that might well involve additional outlay and expenditure, as no doubt it did. I do not dispute that that outlay was a serious

  1139
  burden; none the less it was thought right by Parliament, and was arrived at perfectly fairly after proper consideration on all sides of the House. Those requirements were very much more stringent than those which are now referred to, and involved in some cases additional capital expenditure. I received deputations from various employers of labour urging that the Clauses in question should not come into operation too quickly, because it would be necessary for them to make that capital expenditure, and I thought that was a very reasonable request. I do not say that that is a complete analogy, but it shows plainly to the House how additional capital expenditure has to be provided for by those who carry on factories or workshops in connection with matters which are as essential as those which are the subject matter of the present new Clause.
  It is not some technicality or some lawyer's device, but an essential and very obvious distinction, that anybody proposing Income Tax deductions must bear in mind that those deductions must be in respect of revenue and not of capital. Income Tax is charged upon a calculation of annual profits, and before you fix the figures of the tax you are entitled to make certain deductions, but those deductions will always be found to be of a revenue character.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: Does the right hon. Gentleman include in those deductions the item of depreciation of capital works which are to be spread over five years?
  Sir J. Simon: Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me first to finish my point. I agree that the point he has raised has to be considered. Income Tax, being in the nature of an annual recurring tax, must always be arrived at by deducting from the gross income items in the nature of revenue deductions. I do not believe there is any case in the Income Tax provisions relating to business profits in which you are entitled to make a deduction of capital against a revenue charge. My hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams) spoke of an item of depreciation. I have no reason to suppose that at the end of five years those capital constructions will be exhausted and will have to be rebuilt. It has nothing to do with depreciation
  1140
  at all. I agree that capital works such as plant and machinery would no doubt earn that allowance in respect of their wear and tear, but there is no justification for regarding this proposal as anything in the nature of a proposal for depreciation of things which have either been used a great deal or have fallen out of use. I do not see any reason why premises which are not going to be used should depreciate very rapidly, and, as things are, at the end of five years I hope we shall none of us need them.
  It is not possible to justify the acceptance of such a principle. I do not doubt that the burden is serious, but it is merely a question of where we are to put the burden. It is a delusion to suppose that you will get rid of the burden by putting it upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would be merely putting it upon the rest of the taxpayers of this country. I think we must face the uncomfortable fact that, as in the case of the improvements required by the factory laws so with air-raid precautions, these are in the nature of capital outlay and that the burden must be borne where it falls. I would make it plain that everything possible is done to include within legitimate revenue deductions expenditure which can be so regarded. I stated in answer, I think to the hon. Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds), on 18th March this year, the kind of expenditure on which the Inland Revenue authorities would be prepared to permit deductions of a revenue character in respect of air-raid precautions, and they are very substantial. As the hon. Gentleman said, of course, we have to consider such things as the provision of respirators, protective clothing, the covering of certain things with precautionary material, the provision of screens, equipment of stores and first-aid plant and equipment for decontamination. Anything that can, on a favourable view, be regarded as a revenue charge shall be so regarded, and instructions have been so given.
  Wear and tear allowance would certainly be allowed upon anything in the nature of plant and machinery, such as air-filtration plant, but when you get beyond that point it really is not practicable to accept without any demur or limit a proposal that outlay which is admittedly of a purely capital character should be treated as though it had suddenly become a revenue deduction. Those are the

  1141
  broad considerations on which I regret to have to resist my hon. Friend's proposal. I do not wish to take any smaller points, but I would observe before I sit down that it is not very satisfactory to provide the test that the provision shall have been approved by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. I do not know what kind of approval is intended, or whether it is suggested that the Home Department should prohibit people from spending more than a certain minimum amount. Neither do I think that the provision of the proposed new Clause is very reasonable. The main Clause says that this is to be allowed in connection with air-raid precautions and nothing else, while the proviso says that if at any time after four years it is found that the shelter has not been substantially used for the purpose of air-raid protection, the allowance provided for that shelter shall cease to be granted. That is to say, these people having enjoyed the use of the building for four years and also the relief in respect of it may, in the fifth year, change their minds and use the building for something else. These are matters which could be adjusted, but I want the House to understand that my difficulty in the matter is a difficulty really of principle, and I regret that I am not able to accept the Clause.
  Sir J. Mellor: Does the Chancellor consider that a factory owner could prudently allow expenditure on constructing an air-raid shelter to appear as an asset in his balance sheet?
  Sir J. Simon: I do not know; it would depend partly upon whether or not he was increasing the annual value of the premises by such a provision. With a private house it might be the case that the house was worth more with an air-raid shelter than without it.
  4.31 p.m.
  Mr. Higgs: I am very disappointed that the Chancellor has not seen his way to grant some concession in connection with this Clause. He has pointed out that allowances are not made for modifications made in factories in accordance with the Factory Acts, but I think I am right in saying that there is no Section in the Factory Acts which would call for such a great expenditure as the provision of air-raid shelters involves. He referred, at
  1142
  the conclusion of his speech, to the proviso to the Clause, and I was glad to note that he said that that could be in some way modified. Surely, to meet the possibility of the shelter being used for any other purpose after the allowance had been made, a suitable provision could be inserted so that tax which had been deducted could be repaid. I feel convinced that the absence of any provision for the remittance of Income Tax in such cases will restrict the provision of air-raid shelters more than any other factor. I agree that certain allowances have been granted. Local rates are not charged. But they are a very small matter compared with Schedule D and National Defence Contribution, and that is the main factor which prevents the building of these shelters. An expenditure of £3 per employé has been stated by one or two speakers to be necessary for providing these shelters. I am very surprised to hear that they can be supplied for that small amount. Probably it could be done in the case of factories where the whole of the land has not been built upon, but, where the land is built up, it is a very difficult problem to supply these shelters, and it is going to cost far more than £ per employé in the majority of cases in built-up areas, where these shelters are so very necessary. I am exceedingly sorry that the Chancellor is not able to see his way to grant some concession on this very important matter.
  Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and negatived.

  FINANCE BILL.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Valuation of farm workers' cottages.)
    Notwithstanding anything contained in the First Schedule to the Income Tax Act of 1918, a cottage let to a farm worker shall not have a higher annual value, so long as it is so let, than the rent actually paid by the farm worker for the cottage or, where no rent is actually paid by the occupier of the cottage, than the value of the cottage which, under the order of the value of the Agricultural Wage Committee for the district, may be reckoned as payment: of wages in lieu of payment in cash.—[Mr. W. Roberts.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    4.34 p.m.
    Mr. W. Roberts: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    At the present time the valuation of farm workers' cottages for purposes of Income Tax is governed by the First

    1143
    Schedule to the Income Tax Act, 1918, which provides that the valuation shall be:
    "The amount of the rent by the year at which they are let, if they are let at rackrent and the amount of that rent has been fixed by agreement. …"
    But in those cases, which are increasing in number, in which the cottage is let, not at what can be called rackrent, but at a figure which may be fixed by, for instance, the agricultural wages committee, then the valuation is assessed according to the next paragraph, which reads as follows:
    "If they are not let at a rackrent so fixed, then the rackrent at which they are worth to be let by the year."
    I suggest that this results in a somewhat anomalous and unjust position. A man whom I know took two cottages recently. One of them was let to an ordinary tenant at £32 a year, and was valued accordingly. The other cottage was let to an agricultural worker. The maximum rent which may be charged, under that particular agricultural wages committee, was 4s., and that figure was therefore charged; but the valuation of that cottage is the same as the valuation of the one that is let at£32 per year, and so the owner is charged Income Tax on the basis that both cottages are let at the higher figure.
    I have often heard a Minister, in replying to Amendments dealing with agricultural landowners' Income Tax, suggest that this is a hardy perennial which comes up every year. But this proposal is not like that of the much wider Clause which was moved last night; it deals with a very small problem, and a special problem which really arises out of recent legislation. It arises also in connection with the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, where the rent is fixed by the local authority, and possibly the rent thus fixed is not the rent which could be obtained in the open market. There also, although, as in the case I have just mentioned, the landlowner is not in fact receiving the income, he is taxed on the basis of a larger income than he in fact receives. The present Clause proposes that the owner should be taxed on the income which he in fact receives, and not on some hypothetical income which he might receive; and it seems to me that that very limited proposal is a fair
    1144
    one which should commend itself to the Minister and to the House. I know that hon. Members on the Labour benches sometimes feel that in these Clauses we are making a special plea for one particular class, but in this case I am making no suggestion that the ownership of agricultural houses or agricultural land is in any way different from the ownership of other houses or land; I am only suggesting that the owner should be taxed on the income which he actually receives, and not on something which it is presumed he might receive in other circumstances. It may be said that the provision of such houses, even if the rents are limited, improves the capital value of the land in question, but I am not suggesting that, so far as Death Duties or Estate Duties are concerned, the landowner should have any advantage; I am only suggesting that he should be assessed for Income Tax purposes on the basis of the rent that he actually receives.
    I have not been able to make any estimate of what this might cost the Treasury. It cannot be a very large sum, though I admit that it may be a growing sum. If more houses for agricultural workers are to be provided under the new Housing Act by private individuals and not by local authorities, this same question will arise again. It also arises in connection will the question of rating, and it does appear to many owners to be a great hardship that they should be rated on a higher basis than the rent which they actually obtain. This is not the opportunity to deal with that anomaly, but I think the Chancellor, in dealing with a similar problem in connection with air-raid precautions at an earlier stage of the Finance Bill, suggested that it would be better that the assessment for purposes of Income Tax and rates should be on the same basis. If it should happen that he should accept this proposed new Clause now, perhaps some other opportunity might be afforded of altering the situation so far as it affects rating. As I was saying, I do not think it can involve a very large sum at the present time, but it is one of those small anomalies which prevent owners from increasing the number of their cottages, either by building new ones or by repairing old ones under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, and for that reason, although the matter is a small one, I

    1145
    think we might well do something to encourage owners to make an increase, which is badly needed, in the amount of accommodation available for agricultural workers on the land.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Would the hon. Member explain how his proposal would operate in such a case as this: Suppose that a farm worker is living in a tied cottage, and that he is receiving£2 a week and is getting his cottage at 6s. a week. What is to prevent the owner from saying "I will cut down the rent of your cottage from 6s. to 1s., and will cut down your wages from £2 to £1 15s."? That would make no difference to the agricultural worker, but it would relieve the owner of the cottage who employs the workman from a charge which he would otherwise have to meet.
    Mr. Roberts: I do not think that that could occur under this Clause. The wages committee for the district fixes a maximum rent which may be deducted from the agricultural wage. It is possible that the valuation of the cottage at the present time might be less than that maximum rent, and the Clause would not increase the valuation above the existing figure. Similarly, the valuation could not be reduced, by an arrangement such as the right hon. Gentleman suggests, below the figure which the agricultural committee has fixed, provided that the valuation was not originally lower than that figure. I suggest that a new arrangement could not be made under the Clause by which such a reduction could be effected. If the valuation had previously been 6s., and the allowance which might be deducted under the regulations of the agricultural wages committee was 4s., 4s. would be the lowest possible figure which could be deducted.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I should think that as regards the second part of the Clause, where no wages have to be paid, the hon. Member is correct, but as regards the first part I do not think so.
    Sir Hugh Seely: I beg to second the Motion.
    4 45 p.m.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): The right hon. Gentleman opposite raised a point with regard to the first part of the Clause, but, as the hon. Gentleman who moved the Clause might say, that was a matter which could
    1146
    be adjusted. I would like, quite briefly, to state our objections to the Clause on rather wider grounds. If is quite clear that this is dealing with Schedule A assessments, which fall on the landowner or the farmer. Farm workers are not themselves assessed in respect of their cottages. If they were, they would be able to recover any of the Schedule A taxation which they were not able to pass on, because their incomes would be below the Income Tax limit. I think the Mover of the Clause was contemplating the ordinary case, in which the Schedule A assessment is on the landowner or the farmer. He said that under this Clause the effect would be to tax the landlord on the income which in fact he received, and not on a hypothetical income. Those familiar with the principles which underlie Schedule A taxation will realise that the principle which the hon. Member suggested is entirely contrary to the principle of Schedule A. Schedule A might be described as the tax on the landlord's interest and the rent represents the value of the landlord's interest, upon which it is, of course, based. It is fundamental to Schedule A that if the landlord of a house lets it for nothing, or for something below its value, that in no way affects Schedule A liability, which is intended to fall on the landlord in respect of the annual value of the land.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: Is my right hon. and learned Friend speaking with respect to valuation for rating?
    The Attorney-General: No; I am speaking of Schedule A Income Tax. That is what the Clause deals with. I think it is relevant to consider what is the position of a farmer under the Income Tax Acts. He can be assessed under Schedule B, which is an artificial method, or under Schedule D, whichever is the more favourable to him. What the hon. Member who moved the Clause was saying, in effect, is that where a farmer-landowner lets a cottage at a rent below the rack rent he is, to that extent, of course giving that value as wages, or at any rate, as expenses of the business he is carrying on, to the farm worker. If he chooses to he assessed under Schedule D, he can deduct as an expense the annual value of a cottage which he is letting rent-free, or the difference between the rent he is in fact getting and the annual value. Therefore, I think

    1147
    there is no real unfairness in the operation of this rule when one analyses the position of the farmer. To that extent, he is already given the benefit of the Schedule B measure if it pays him. If, on the other hand, it does not pay him and he chooses to come under Schedule D, in the case which has been put he can deduct as an expense the annual value of the cottages which he lets rent-free.
    Therefore, we do not think that a case has been made out for accepting what would, in fact, be a principle in respect of these houses fundamentally at variance with the principle on which Schedule A is based. The hon. Member gave a specific instance of two houses side by side, one let to a farm worker and the other to a non-farm worker. In that case, the annual value to the farm worker is very considerably above the rent received. I do not dispute that case, but I do not think it is a common one. I believe that in the case of most cottages, acting on the principle on which these cottages are valued, the Schedule A valuation is very little, if anything, different from the agricultural rent in the district.
    Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and negatived.

    CLAUSE 7.—(Customs Duty on re- imported films.)
    4.51 P.m.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Euan Wallace): I beg to move, in page 8, line 27, to leave out "Section eleven of the Finance Act, 1925, or."
    This Amendment and the next three Amendments to Clause 7 are really consequential on the addition of the new Clause 6 to the Bill. Section 11 of the Finance Act, 1925, will cease to apply, and the reference to that Section becomes unnecessary. That covers this Amendment and the next one. The other two Amendments which are to be moved to this Clause are made necessary because Section 3 of the Finance Act is being repealed by the new Clause, and it is therefore necessary to reproduce in full the definition of positive and negative cinematograph films. There is a further Amendment in this group—that is the Amendment in the name of my right hon.
    1148
    Friend to be moved on the Fifth Schedule.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 8, line 28, leave out "relate," and insert "relates."
    In line 39, leave out "or negative."
    In page 9, line 1, leave out from the beginning to the first "or," in line 2, and insert:
    "(that is to say, a cinematograph film containing a picture for exhibition, whether developed or not) or a negative cinematograph film (that is to say, a cinematograph film containing a photograph, whether developed or not, from which positive cinematograph films can be printed)."—[Captain Wallace.]

    CLAUSE 20.—(Increase of additional allowance in case of machinery and plant.)
    4.55 P.m.
    Mr. Batey: I beg to move, in page 16, line 36, to leave out "one-fifth," and to insert "one-eighth."
    In the 1932 Finance Act, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer gave an additional allowance to employers of labour for wear and tear of machinery in factories. Now, in this Clause, the Chancellor is proposing to increase that allowance. I want to limit that increase as much as I can. If I could, I would prevent any increase at all. This Clause is altogether different from Clause 5, in which the Chancellor is taking from the people, and especially from the poorer people, an additional tax by which he expects to receive £3,000,000. In this Clause, he is proposing to give to employers of labour an additional sum. Perhaps the Chancellor will tell us when replying what is the amount he expects to receive; I have heard that it is equal to the amount that the Chancellor is taking on the Tea Duty. We strongly condemn taking from the poor of this country £3,000,000 in order to give it to the employers of labour.
    Why this generosity to employers at this time? In 1932, when the then Chancellor gave the additional allowance to employers, he argued that industry was in a bad way—and it was. But that argument could not be used to-day. I would like the Chancellor to tell us whether the employers have asked for this. I have not seen any public demand. I have not noticed any demonstration of employers

    1149
    in support of it. Does the Chancellor, by this action, want to encourage the installation of machinery and the dismissal of workers—because the more machinery is installed, the more workers are displaced. What was the amount by which the employers benefited from the allowance in 1932? This allowance in 1932 was not the only act of kindness that this Government has shown to the capitalists. There was the 1929 De-rating Act, by which industry was relieved of three-quarters of the local rate. I would like the Chancellor to tell us what was the amount of the concession that productive industry received in 1929. If my memory serves me aright, it was something like £29,000,000.
    In addition to the 1929 and 1932 concessions, we have to remember, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer provided in the 1935 Finance Act for a deduction from profits in respect of contributions for rationalising industry. The Board of Trade was given power to certify schemes of which the object was the elimination of redundant machinery or plant in any industry in the United Kingdom. One was afraid that that encouragement might be taken advantage of to the disadvantage of the workers. I should like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell us what benefit that means to the employers, and now many schemes have been certified by the Board of Trade. I was reading the other day somewhere a statement that manufactures and industry enjoy privileges which are so complicated and varied that it seems impossible to assess their value. Before we make this concession to employers of a further increase on the wear and tear of machinery, we should know what have been the former amounts that employers of labour have got through this Government. The more relief that is given to employers in regard to machinery, the more machinery will be installed.
    The Government ought not to encourage employers of labour to instal machinery. The time will come when this House will have to control the installation of machinery because so many men are being thrown out of employment through the use of machinery. The installation of machinery causes displacement of labour, and there is also danger to workmen through the use of machinery. We have had bitter experience for many years in the coal mines in regard to the installation
    1150
    of machinery. In 1930 the amount of coal cut by machines in coal mines in the United Kingdom was 75,000,000 tons, and last year it had jumped to 137,000,000 tons. In 1930 there were 933,000 persons employed in the coal industry, and in 1937 the number had fallen to 739,000, a decrease of 200,000, due largely, some of us believe, to the use of machinery. That reduction is equal to two of our biggest coal districts being completely wiped out. In 1920 the figures were more staggering still. There were then 1,249,000 persons employed, so that from 1920 to 1937 there was a reduction in the number employed in the coal mines of this country of over 500,000. Although there were 500,000 fewer persons employed in 1937, there were only 4,000,000 tons more coal produced than in 1920. From our experience in connection with the coal mines in this country, we believe that machinery is to blame to a large extent for that position. There is also the danger from the use of machinery, and the staggering fact is that last year in the coal mines of this country——
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Captain Bourne): The hon. Gentleman is now going on to say the thing he said he could not say without being out of order.
    Mr. Batey: I want to argue that the Government by their action are encouraging employers of labour to instal machinery. The more we give rebates the more machinery will be installed. I was arguing that that was not a wise departure, and I was trying to illustrate that from the bitter experience we have had of the coal mines. However, I will leave the argument there. The late Prime Minister made more than one appeal to employers of labour to employ more men. That appeal fell upon deaf ears, and I submit that one of the questions that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should always keep in mind in dealing with these matters, is the taking of such steps as will encourage the employment of workers, and not steps which will be the means of throwing more workers out of employment.
    5.8 p.m.
    Mr. Gordon Macdonald: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I do not agree with all that has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) as regards the

    1151
    use of machinery. I would like to see machinery doing the whole of the underground work of the mine and the sooner the better. But I want adequate provision to be made for displaced workers. All the hard and dangerous work in the world should be done by machinery, if possible, but my complaint is that, as it displaces labour to some extent, provision is not made for that displaced labour. I rise to second the Amendment because I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer can really afford this concession at the moment. Yesterday he very generously made two fairly substantial concessions to appeals from this side for which we were all very grateful. In making those concessions he informed the House that he was going to lose substantially, and he could scarcely afford to do it. The Chancellor thinks that this is a concession that he ought to make in view of the burdens placed upon industry, but I have my doubts whether it is necessary to make this concession at this time.
    The Chancellor has based his Budget on very heavy expenditure, and I believe that he would have been justified in telling employers of labour that at the moment he could ill-afford this concession. My hon. Friend said he thought the concession was equal to the increase of the duty on tea, but I am not sure. If it is anywhere in that region, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been better advised if he had not put the increased duty on tea and had not made this concession. I hope that the Chancellor can satisfy the House to-day that there is good reason for this concession, and that it is to the advantage of the workers in industry that this concession should be made.
    5.11 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: I take exception to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. G. Macdonald), seeing that he took some exception to some of the remarks of the mover of the Amendment, especially when he says that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made substantial concessions yesterday. Very great consideration is always shown to the employers, as is evident in connection with this Clause that we are now discussing. There is never anything like the same consideration afforded to the workers. The so-called concession that was made
    1152
    yesterday was, in face of an argument that could not be met, to hide the fact that a deliberate and positive swindle was being carried out on a section of the working class. It is a swindle which should not be tolerated, and it would never be tolerated by the employers. If, instead of concessions to the employers, such an obvious and transparent fraud as that which was discussed yesterday in connection with the workers and the unemployed were perpetrated upon employers by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would not last long in his job.
    In this Clause we have the Chancellor deliberately and gratuitously offering a concession to the employers. In the course of the Debate on the Tea Duty one of the many employers sitting on the benches opposite—if they do not happen to be employers who sit on the other side, they are lawyers who represent the employers, so that there is never any fear of the employers not having their case properly considered or their profits properly looked after—told the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the employers were quite surprised at the generous offer that he had made. I would like to see a situation arise where the Chancellor of the Exchequer or any representative of the Government would get up and make at any time an offer, however small, to any section of the working class which had not been strenuously fought for. I have never heard of such a thing. It takes years and generations to get the most modest concession for any section of the workers, but here, when the Tea Duty was being discussed——
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman should confine his remarks to the Amendment before the House.
    Mr. Gallacher: I was on the point of repeating that a few nights ago an hon. Member of this House could make the statement that this concession was utterly unexpected and further that this Amendment was unnecessary. I ask you whether that is not in order?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member certainly was not saying that when I called him to order.
    Mr. Gallacher: I am prepared to accept your Ruling on any point, but I think that in putting forward an argument of that character, where an hon. Member

    1153
    on the other side who represents the employers said that this concession was not expected and that it was not necessary, makes it clear that the Amendment should be readily accepted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think that is a very sound argument. I do not see why the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not be prepared now to say that, in view of the fact that no demand had been made by the employers for this concession, that a representative of the employers had stated that it was not expected and was not necessary, he was prepared to accept the Amendment, and reduce the concession from one-fifth to one-eighth or, better still, go the whole hog and wipe out the concession.
    If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come forward with a concession voluntarily offered to any section of the working classes—which is something that has never happened—and a representative of labour on this side had said that the concession was completely unexpected and quite unnecessary, I am certain that he would have had no hesitation in withdrawing the concession and in saying: "If it is not expected and it is not necessary, arid you do not want it, I will not give the concession. I have so much need for money, and there are so many other directions in which the concession can better be made, and where it would be more apppreciated." I ask him to accept the Amendment and to take into account the fact that no demand of any kind has come from the employers for such a concession, that we have had the statement from the employers' side that the concession was not expected and is not necessary, that he should save the money and then make a request to us, and we will advise him how to use the money in a concession that will be of benefit to the people of the country.
    5.18 p.m.
    Mr. Holdsworth: Sometimes I find it necessary to disagree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I think someone ought to say a few words complimenting him on this Clause. The last speaker tried to make out that there has never been any demand for the concession. For years this concession has been asked for. I have for years had my name down to Amendments seeking such a concession, and I sincerely compliment the right hon. Gentleman on having put this Clause into
    1154
    the Finance Bill. I cannot understand why the Amendment should have been moved. Unquestionably, the concession is of advantage to the employers and unquestionably it is a tremendous advantage to the employés. [HoN. MEMBERS: "In what way?"] I will point out the way. I am surprised that anyone who is connected with the engineering trade should oppose the concession. If there is one thing that is needed in this country it is, surely, that we should keep our industries up to date so far as plant is concerned. Nothing in this Finance Bill will do more to enocurage the displacement of out-of-date machinery and the substitution of up-to-date machinery than this Clause. From that point of view it will give added employment to the engineering industry.
    There is another point in regard to the export trade. If we are to succeed in this country we must have the most up-to-date plant and the latest things that can be obtained in order to produce goods to compete with other countries. Therefore, I regard this Clause as a very useful addition to the Finance Bill, and I am astonished to hear anyone from the Labour benches suggest that it is merely a one-sided Clause. In the long run it is no concession, because an employer, finally, when he substitutes machinery can claim for obsolescence. I sincerely thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the concession, and I am sure that any long-sighted representatives of the employés will equally thank him, because the Clause is an encouragement to employers to replace old plant by new plant and the latest machinery.
    5.22 p.m.
    Sir J. Simon: I am obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth) for what he has said. I realise that in any Finance Bill there are Clauses which are the subject of controversy and challenge, but I did think that this provision was one which would be recognised as being intelligently conceived for reasons and purposes with which we all have sympathy. Of course, if one takes the view that anything in the world which can be described as reducing the burden of a portion of the Income Tax on what are called the employers, is both necessarily evil and unjust, and that view is put forward by persons who claim to represent the

    1155
    workers, then that is an end of all argument. We cannot usefully discuss the matter any further. If, however, we are treating this fairly and squarely as a House of Commons matter and it is admitted that we are doing our best in the circumstances, it is a matter for argument.
    I should have thought that it was generally admitted that in regard to Income Tax there should be proper deduction made for wear and tear of machinery. Wear and tear of plant and machinery means, of course, that year by year the machinery is wearing out and becoming less useful and less valuable, and that the day will come when it has to be replaced. It is not open to any sort of challenge from any economist that if you have an Income Tax it is right to make an allowance for wear and tear. Mr. Snowden, who was no mean economist in these matters, explained very clearly in 1932, when there was an increased rate of Income Tax, why he was adding to the deduction made for wear and tear.
    It is not true to say that this is an unmixed concession to employers. It has the effect of accelerating the date at which new machinery will be put in; the plant will be written off more quickly. I appreciate the fact that the hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) views machinery as an evil and is of opinion that the less machinery there is, the better. Presumably, from his argument, it is legitimate to lower a man down a pit by some piece of machinery and perhaps to permit him to dig with a shovel, but if you go further than that you are indulging in a very dangerous misapplication of machinery. That sort of objection to machinery was taken many years ago by people who were called Luddites. My hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor is a good representative of that honest point of view, but I do not agree with his economics. I prefer the economics of the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. G. Macdonald), who seconded the Amendment.
    When it was decided to increase the Income Tax for this year I had very grave concern as to what the effect would be in two directions, and I regret that the hon. Member for Spennymoor, who spoke so scathingly, seemed to have concentrated his attention entirely on one of
    1156
    these points and to have forgotten the other. One of my concerns was the effect of the increased Income Tax on the small man, the struggling man, and by an arrangement of the tax we were able to make provision so that 2,000,000 small Income Tax payers would not suffer what they would otherwise have suffered under the increased tax. The other concern that I had was this. It is perfectly just that if you need to raise more revenue you should seek to get a portion of it by direct taxation, and I felt that I was justified, in the circumstances in which I found myself, in putting up the rate of Income Tax. There is, however, one consideration in regard to Income Tax which is extremely serious for employment in this country, and that is that if you put too high taxation upon certain forms of industry, with the result that you reduce the reserves, you make it impossible for that branch of industry to expand and develop as one would like.
    It is a delusion, a very foolish and ignorant delusion, to suggest that what I propose is to let off the rich taxpayer. As a matter of fact 5s. 6d. in the £ and no less is what is paid by every big shareholder in every one of the concerns affected by this proposal. I pointed out that if we increased the Income Tax from 5s. to 5s. 6d. and we did not increase the allowance for wear and tear, we were running a very grave danger that these big basic trades, trades which give a great deal of employment, would be seriously handicapped if we debarred them from that development which is essential if the people engaged in those trades are to be properly employed. I do not believe that that was a partisan view or a biased view. I think that it appealed very widely to people of all parties and points of view, and whatever else may be open to dispute I think that this particular provision is justified. The hon. Member for Spennymoor does not propose to reject the Clause.
    Mr. Batey: Because I could not. I would if I could.
    Sir J. Simon: He proposes a reduction to one-eighth. I can see no reason in that proportion at all. There is no relation between the two things. The object of the provision was to save the reserves which are connected with the carrying on of these important basic trades which

    1157
    give such great employment in this country. I am willing at all times to receive with good temper any criticism that is made, but I did really think that on this particular proposal I had a great deal of merit on my side. Anyone who looks at the interests of our engineering trade in its wider aspects must realise how impossible and futile it would be to accept the advice that really machinery in this country is a bad thing. We know how absolutely necessary it is to encourage the production of up-to-date plant. I do not think really that this particular provision is the worst of the provisions in the Bill.
    Mr. G. Macdonald: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer say what is the value of the concession?

    Division No. 295.]

    AYES.

    [5.31 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

    Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

    Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Cox, H. B. Trevor

    Hambro, A. V.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hannah, I. C.

    Albery, Sir Irving

    Craven-Ellis, W.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

    Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

    Harbord, A.

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

    Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Crowder. J. F. E.

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Apsley, Lord

    Cruddas, Col. B.

    Heilggrs, Captain F. F. A.

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

    Assheton, R.

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeevil)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

    Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

    De Chair, S. S.

    Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    De la Bére, R.

    Hepworth, J.

    Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

    Denville, Alfred

    Higgs, W. F.

    Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

    Dixon, Capt. Rt. Hon. H,

    Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

    Baxter, A. Beverley

    Doland, G. F.

    Holdsworth, H.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Donner, P. W.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Beit, Sir A. L.

    Drewe, C.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Bennett, Sir E. N.

    Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Haek., N.)

    Bernays, R. H.

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

    Birchall, Sir J. D.

    Dugdale, Captain T. L.

    Hulbert, N. J.

    Blair, Sir R.

    Duggan, H. J.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Hunloke, H. P.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Hunter, T.

    Bower, Comdr. R. T.

    Ellis, Sir G.

    Hurd, sir p. A.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Emery, J. F.

    Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Keeling, E. H.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Erskine-Hill, A. G.

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Bull, B. B.

    Everard, W. L.

    Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Fildes, Sir H.

    Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

    Burton, Col. H. W.

    Findlay, Sir E.

    Kimball, L.

    Butcher, H. W.

    Fleming, E. L.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Foot, D. M.

    Leech, Sir J. W.

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Fox, Sir G. W. G.

    Lees-Jones, J.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Furness, S. N.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Cary, R. A.

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

    Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Lewis, O.

    Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Liddall, W. S.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Lipson, D. L.

    Channon, H.

    Gledhill, G.

    Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Gower, Sir R. V.

    Loftus. P. C.

    Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

    Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Christie, J. A.

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)

    Granville, E. L.

    MoCorquodale, M. S.

    Clarry, Sir Reginald

    Gratton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

    Macdonald, Capt. T. (Isle of Wight)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    McKie, J. H.

    Colville, Rt. Hon. John

    Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Maitland, A.

    Cooper, Rt.Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S.G'gs)

    Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Sir J. Simon: I think it will be not less than £2,500,000 this year, probably more in a full year.
    Mr. Gallacher: Has the Chancellor of the Exchequer the slightest concern for the reserves of the working classes?
    Sir J. Simon: Certainly, and if the hon. Member will acquaint himself at his leisure with the provisions of the National Defence Contribution he will find that it has nothing whatever in the world to do with their reserves. That is a charge on profits which are made in the course of business.
    Question put, "That the word one-fifth' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 267; Noes, 129.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Marsden, Commander A.

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

    Rowlands, G.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

    Thomas, J. P. L.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

    Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

    Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

    Russell, Sir Alexander

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Tree, A. R. L. F.

    Moreing, A. C.

    Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Morgan, R. H.

    Salmon, Sir I.

    Turton, R. H.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

    Salt, E. W.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Sandeman, Sir N. S.

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Munro, P.

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

    Nevon-Spence, Major B. H. H.

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

    Selley, H. R.

    Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

    O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Warrender, Sir V.

    Owen, Major G.

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Peake, O.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

    Wayland, Sir W. A.

    Petherick, M.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

    Wedderburn, H. J. S.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Smiles, Lieut-Colonel Sir W. D.

    Wells, Sir Sydney

    Pilkington, R.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    White, H. Graham

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Smith, Sir Louis (Hallam)

    Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

    Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Raikes, H. V. A. M.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Ramsden, Sir E.

    Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

    Wise, A. R.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Spens. W. P.

    Withers, Sir J. J.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'id)

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

    Wragg, H.

    Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Remer, J. R.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

    Captain Hope and Major Sir

    James Edmondson.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Pearson, A.

    Adamson, W. M.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Poole, C. C.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Hayday, A.

    Price, M. P.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Pritt, D. N.

    Barr, J.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Richards, R. (Wrexham)

    Batey, J.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Ridley, G.

    Bellenger, F. J.

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Riley, B.

    Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

    Hollins, A.

    Ritson, J.

    Benson, G.

    Hopkin, D.

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    Bevan, A.

    Jagger, J.

    Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

    Broad, F. A.

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Sanders, W. S.

    Bromfield, W.

    Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

    Sexton. T. M.

    Brown, C. (Mansfield)

    John, W.

    Short, A.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Silverman, S. S.

    Buchanan, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Simpson, F. B.

    Burke, W. A.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Cape, T.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lathan, G.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Chater, D.

    Lawson, J. J.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Leach, W.

    Stephen, C.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

    Lee, F.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Cove, W. G.

    Leonard, W.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Daggar, G.

    Leslie, J. B

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Dalton, H.

    Logan, D. G.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Lunn, W.

    Thorne, W.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Macdonald, G. (Ince)

    Thurtle, E.

    Davies, S. O.(Merthyr)

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Day, H.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Tomlinson, G.

    Dobbie, W.

    McGovern, J.

    Viant, S. P.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    MacLaren, A.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Ede, J. C.

    Maclean, N.

    Walker, J.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Mander, G. le M.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Marklew, E.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Marshall, F.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Gallacher, W.

    Maxton, J.

    Westwood, J.

    Gardner, B. W.

    Messer, F.

    Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Milner, Major J.

    Wilkinson, Ellen

    Gibson, R. (Greenock)

    Montague, F.

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Noel-Baker, P. J.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Paling, W.

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Parker, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

    Parkinson, J. A.

    Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves.

    5.43 P.m.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: I desire to rise to a point of Order. I was one of a group of Members who came down from the Committee upstairs immediately on hearing the Division Bell, but I found myself with one or two other hon. Members locked in the doorway to the House by a large number of hon. Members who were grouped there. I tried to get into the "Aye" Lobby but was prevented from doing so owing to the fact that the door was locked. I know that one door must be locked before another, but it so happens that the door on the "Aye" side is locked first much more frequently than the door on the other side. I do not wish to lay emphasis on that point, but to say that I came down directly from the Committee room upstairs in conjunction with other hon. Members, but owing to the crowd in the doorway to the House I was unable to get through and was prevented from going into the Lobby because the door was locked.
    Hon. Members: What is your point of Order?
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: My point of Order is that I desire that my Vote shall be recorded in the "Aye" Lobby.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am afraid that is impossible. The hon. Member must get as much consolation as he can from feeling that he would have voted in the "Aye" Lobby if he could.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward: I have noticed that for the last three or four weeks the "Aye" Lobby door at the end of the Chamber has been closed first, and I would like to make the suggestion that the "No" Lobby door should be closed first.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think it is the usual practice for the "Aye" Lobby door nearest the doors of the House to be locked first, and then the "No" Lobby door. At this end of the Chamber it is the other way round.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Further to the point of Order. Can you give any Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in regard to the congregation of hon. Members in the doorway as it completely prevents an hon. Member recording his vote in the Lobby. I should like to point out clearly and definitely that through no fault of my own I was prevented from recording my vote in the "Aye" Lobby.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think it would facilitate matters if hon. Members would recall that there are other hon. Members who wish to go through the doorway to the Division Lobby, and I think hon. Members should do their best to facilitate their access.
    5.45 P.m.
    Mr. Ede: Further to the point of Order. I wish to ask your Ruling on the following point, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. When you give the order "Lock the doors," should the attendant admit any other Members to the Lobby after you have pronounced those words? I was sitting on this bench during the last Division, watching the door, and when you gave the order, there were six or seven hon. Members standing close to the door, pushing one another, and they were allowed to proceed into the Lobby before the door was locked. I do not complain, but it seemed to me that those Members were obstructing the attendant in carrying out the order you had given to him to lock the doors.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not see that myself, but I have often noticed Members in all parts of the House taking advantage of the fact that one door into their Lobby was locked rather later than the other, and getting in by the later locked door.
    Mr. Ede: I have observed the same thing, and practised it on occasion; but the point to which I wanted to draw your attention, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, was that the attendant was hindered in carrying out your order by the fact that there was such a press of Members that he could not close the door, let alone lock it.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Further to the point of Order. I do not know whether there is any rule or regulation according to which one door must be closed before the other. If there is, in view of the fact that it is completely impossible for the one attendant to be present at both doors at the same time, I suggest that the State might provide another attendant to look after the other door.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point with which I can deal.
    Mr. McGovern: Further to the point of Order. Is it not about time that some more intelligent system of voting was adopted?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That does not arise.
    Mr. J. J. Davidson: Further to the point of Order. Could it not be made clear to all hon. Members in future that no door is locked until you give the order "Lock the doors," and has there not in the past been ample time for Members to come from all parts of the House to take part in a Division? Is not the time that is allowed given for that purpose?—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have always understood that that was so.

    CLAUSE 28.—(Provisions as to absolute interests in residue.)
    5.48 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General (Sir Terence O'Connor): I beg to move, in page 30, line 10, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that when the legacy duty charged on the residue, or on the part thereof in which that person has an absolute interest, as the case may be, has been paid in respect of income for any such year or part of a year as aforesaid, his residuary income for that year shall thereafter be treated for the purposes of Surtax as reduced by the amount of that duty so far as paid in respect of such income."
    I invite the attention of the House to what I fear is a somewhat less interesting matter than that which we have just been discussing which forms the subject matter of this Amendment. The purpose of the Amendment is to implement a pledge which was given, on the Committee stage, to my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson), and it deals with the following situation. We are altering the law as regards the administration of estates in a number of Clauses contained in Part III of the Bill. For the first time, we are treating as income of a residuary legatee the sums of money which arise on income account between the death of the testator and the final administration of the estate. Hitherto, those sums of money have, on the completion of the administration, passed to the residuary legatee as a mixed fund of capital and of income. We are now, for the first time, by a method which I do not need to explain, as it has been explained previously, treating the residuary legatee as though, in the interval between the death and the administration, he were in receipt of a notional income.
    It was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings on the Committee stage that by that somewhat fictitious
    1164
    method, we take no account of the fact that, in the course of those years, legacy duty became payable on what the notional income in those years would be. A promise was given at that time, that, as that seemed to be a hardship, the matter would be rectified. We are now rectifying it. It is being rectified only in so far as Surtax is concerned, because to rectify it in the case of Income Tax would deprive quite small residuary legatees of the relief by way of repayment when they had paid legacy duty. They will retain that benefit. But it seemed a hardship that people should be treated as though they had received income when, in fact, the State had taken it in respect of their income interest.
    5.50 p.m.
    Mr. Benson: I would not have risen to speak on this Amendment had it not been for the fact that the learned Solicitor-General and the Chancellor have, on more than one occasion during the passage of the Finance Bill, lectured hon. Members on this side of the House on the basic principles of taxation and refused to accept some proposals which we moved because, they said, those proposals violated these principles. I draw the Solicitor-General's attention to the fact that this Amendment involves the violation of two separate and distinct principles of taxation. For the first one the Amendment is not responsible; but we have here an extraordinarily anomalous position. The legacy duty, which is primarily a tax upon the capital value of the legacy left, is, either because of bad drafting or because of some ancient legal decision, not only charged on the capital value of the legacy, but is charged upon a certain income which has accumulated after the death. From the date of the death, that income is definitely the income of the beneficiary; it may not be so legally, but in fact it is; and in no circumstances should that income be liable to the tax on the legacy.
    In order to rectify the hardship of that, the hon. and learned Gentleman has moved an Amendment, not to relieve the income which has accrued after death from Legacy Duty, but to allow the Legacy Duty which is charged to be set against that income for Surtax assessment purposes. In other words, he suggests that a capital charge should be

    1165
    set against income for assessment purposes, which is in violation of Income Tax principles. On an Amendment which was moved this afternoon, the Chancellor of the Exchequer laid down that any sums set against income must be deductions of a revenue kind, and that nothing of a capital character could be set against income for the purpose of assessment. By this Amendment, the Government propose to rectify an anomaly by introducing another anomaly; namely, the setting of a capital charge against income for assessment purposes. This Amendment involves a double violation of the basic canons of taxation. It arose from an Amendment moved on the Committee stage by the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson). The hon. Member for Hastings is a new Member; and this is the first Finance Bill in the Debates on which he has taken part. He has succeeded already in corrupting the Chancellor, in undermining the morals of the Board of Inland Revenue, and in playing havoc with the principles of the Solicitor-General. That is a good start. What the condition of our taxation law will be by the time the hon. Member is father of the House, I hesitate to think.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 32.—(Interpretation of Part III.)
    5.54 P.m.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 38, line 8, at the end, to insert:
    "(10) References to sums paid or payable in respect of an absolute or limited interest in the residue of the estate of a deceased person, or in a part thereof, shall, in the application of this Part of this Act for the purposes of Surtax, be construed as excluding any sum paid or payable in discharge of any legacy duty charged in respect of that absolute or limited interest."
    This Amendment, to which I ought to have referred when dealing with the last Amendment, deals with exactly the same thing in the case of a life tenant, or in the case of a residuary legatee who is also a life tenant.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 33.—(Application of Part III to Scotland.)
    5.55 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 39, line 14, at the end, to insert:
    "(2) For the purpose of the application of this Part of this Act to Northern Ireland, for any reference to the sum of one thousand
    1166
    pounds charged by virtue of Section forty-six of the Administration of Estates Act, 1925, there shall be substituted a reference to the sum of five hundred pounds to which a widow is entitled by virtue of Section two of the Intestates' Estates Act, 1890."
    In Clause 32, Sub-section (6), the expression "Charges on residue" is defined, for the purposes of the administration of these Clauses, as meaning certain liabilities and interest payable in respect of those liabilities, which comprise, among other things,
    "general legacies (including in the case of an intestacy the sum of one thousand pounds."
    That sum is the statutory charge on a residuary estate when it is attested in England and Wales, but the sum involved in similar circumstances in Northern Ireland is £500. This Amendment, which deals with Northern Ireland, would bring the Clause into conformity with the law in Northern Ireland.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 35.—(Income arising under certain settlements to be treated as income of settlor.)
    5.56 p.m.
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, in page 42, line 3, after "if," to insert "under the express terms of the settlement."
    This Amendment and the following Amendment in my name raise a point which is difficult and technical, but which, in my opinion, is of great substance, and I will try to explain it to the House as clearly as I can. Subsections (3) and (4) of this Clause have the laudable object of trying to stop settlements created by a settlor which contains powers of accumulation and provisions under which the settlor during his life may make that accumulation his own. Everyone is in favour of this method of tax evasion, when it is tax evasion, being stopped, but as the Clause is worded, it applies to every settlement, whenever it is made, where the settlor is still alive, and in which the settlement contains a provision for the accumulation of any income during the settlor's life, by whoever are the trustees or whoever is the owner of that income, other than the settlor, and in which in any circumstances whatsoever any part of that income, or the property of which it is the fruit, may come back to the settlor or the settlor's wife. That drags in the doctrine

    1167
    with which lawyers in one particular division are more familiar than others, namely, resulting trusts. I will explain to the House what that means. A settlor makes a settlement, believing that he has completely disposed of the property which he has settled, but owing to a subsequent event, it is found that, because sombody does not attain a certain age, or because somebody does not survive somebody else, or because of some other provision of that description by which the property would pass from one to the other, the person who was intended to take the property fails to fulfil the conditions under which he ought to have taken it, and the property turns out, because of events which happen years after the settlement, to have no owner. In those circumstances the property, under this doctrine of resulting trusts, reverts back to and becomes the property of the original settlor—much to his surprise in almost every case and against his intentions when he attempted to dispose of the property.
    Let me give another instance. Assume that he has settled the property by every means in his power so as to confer it upon other people, with a series of limitations and gifts, one after another, to a series of people. There, another doctrine comes into play, that is the horrible doctrine called the rule against perpetuities. Although he has those limitations depriving him absolutely of the property some ingenious lawyer may suggest at some future time, that one of those limitations is invalid, because it offends against the rule against perpetuities and in certain circumstances may succeed in establishing that case. Therefore the gift in that case will fail to take effect; the property will be found to be undisposed of, under the terms of the settlement, and then, under the doctrine of resulting trusts, back it goes to the original settlor, entirely against his expectation, he having been advised and having acted under the belief that he had deprived himself entirely of all interest in it.
    As this Clause is worded, every existing settlement of which the settlor is still alive, will have to be examined at once by the Revenue Department who will have to ask the question: "Are there any provisions in the settlement, or are there any circumstances under which this
    1168
    property may come back again to the settlor?" A series of people concerned in the settlement may have died out in the lifetime of the settlor and, in such circumstances, the property would come back to the settlor. If it be possible to argue—although no court would ever allow it to be argued, apart from this provision, until it became a question of material fact—that some of the ultimate limitations are affected by the rule against perpetuities, or that for some other technical reason the property in the settlement, or some part of it, might come back to the settlor, what will be the effect? It will be this. If at any time during the life of the settlor, the trustees of that settlement, over whom the settlor has no control, are accumulating part of the income under the powers in that settlement, or under the direction of the owner of the income, that income becomes, under this Clause, part of the income of the original settlor.
    In the cases which I have suggested he has no control over them. He has made an absolute disposition but, for one reason or another, has failed to carry it out. The property is in the hands of strangers. He cannot prevent accumulation being made but if the trustees have power to accumulate or the owner of the income directs that some part of it shall be accumulated, then accumulated it will be and he will come within the provisions of Sub-section (3). The original settlor, if he is unfortunate enough still to be alive, will find this accumulation of income added to his own income for Surtax purposes. I am certain that was never the intention of those who drafted the Clause but with very great respect to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, I submit that the instances which I have mentioned would clearly fall within the provisions of the Clause as now drafted. For that reason I desire to cut out altogether from this Clause the doctrine of resulting trusts and to strike out the words "in any circumstances whatsoever" substituting for them the words "if under the express terms of the settlement." If there is an express provision under which the settlement permitted some part of the income to be accumulated and to come back to the settlor, if there is any device expressed in the

    1169
    settlement by which the income would come back, then that device will be caught.
    My hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General will possibly make two answers to my criticism. One I imagine will be that there are four exceptions in the proviso. I have considered them carefully and they do not cover anything like the number of cases that may arise and are not any real protection. The other answer may be that if resulting trusts are excluded, and the Clause is made to apply only to settlements which expressly provide for the income coming back to the settlor, it may open up a loophole by which clever conveyancers could apply the doctrine of resulting trusts so as to get some accumulations of income back to the settlor. I would ask my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to accept now and for this year the Amendment which I propose. Let the Clause be confined this year to the express provisions of existing trusts. The Clause, as it is drawn now, is made to apply to every existing settlement and there must be masses of cases in which you will have a situation such as I have outlined, where there is no ultimate gift and where there is in existence some possible resulting trust never intended for the purpose of evading taxation. It may be because the drafting of the settlement was bad or because the draftsman thought he had made certain that in no circumstances could a resulting trust ever take effect.
    If it turns out that anybody is ingenious enough to use the doctrine of resulting trusts so as to get an accumulation back—I have not tried to do it myself but perhaps it would not be beyond the capabilities of a very clever draftsman to attempt something of the kind—it cannot result in any great loss to the revenue during the next 12 months, and a proper Clause to deal with this situation could be submitted next year. But I ask my right hon. Friend and my hon. and learned Friend to consider this point very seriously before they allow the Clause to go into the Bill in its present form. I think if they examine it they will find that, in order to catch a comparatively small number of cases of evasion, they are going to cause a great deal of trouble in regard to settlements executed many years ago, long before the question of tax evasion ever came to the front, with the possible result of causing income to
    1170
    be aggregated with a settlor's income in circumstances which were never intended to be covered by this legislation.
    6.9 p.m.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I am bound to say I can conceive of no wider words than those words in Subsection (4):
    "any income or property which may … become payable to or applicable to the benefit of the settlor … in any circumstances whatsoever."
    I take leave to doubt whether it was the intention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that those words should have the effect which I think they will have. This Sub-section would apply in cases where intestacy has the effect of bringing back money quite unexpectedly to the settlor. As long as there is a chance of that this Sub-section applies. Take a simple example. Suppose that someone leaves money in trust to accumulate for three children, and all three children die. It is conceivable that the money might come back to the settlor or the wife or husband of the settlor. In that event the Sub-section would apply, and I feel certain that is not the intention of my right hon. Friend. That being the case, while the possibility of such an event exists the settlor must be deemed, in the words of the Section, "to have an interest in" the income. The effect of the Clause might be as if it were stated that "in all cases, a settlor, for the purposes of the foregoing Section, shall be deemed to have an interest in the property or income" except in the four cases covered by the proviso. I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) that there are many cases not covered by those four concessions made in the proviso and, subject to anything which my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate may have to say, I assume that the law of Scotland will operate in the same way as the law of England in this respect. I do not wish to enlarge further on the subject which has been dealt with fully by my hon. and learned Friend but I would ask my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he thinks the words of the Amendment are too narrow to consider making his own words less wide, and evolving some form designed to avoid the injustice which I feel

    1171
    certain will follow if this Clause passes as it is drawn at present.
    6.12 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General: We are dealing here with a type of tax evasion which was described by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I think by myself during the Committee stage of the Bill. It is this. A kind of money-box is created. A trust is set up for the accumulation of income, and what we have provided is that, in so far as the income of a trust fund of that kind is not distributed, then if the settlor has a resulting interest in the fund, the income, so far as it is not distributed, shall be treated as his. We have made certain exceptions, which appear in Sub-section (4), but it is important to bear in mind the subject-matter with which we are dealing—the case of a fund used as a money-box for accumulation, with a power under which ultimately this fund is to inure to the benefit of the settlor.
    The exceptions that have already been made are cases of bankruptcy, assignments, marriage settlements, and death under the age of 25. If the House accepts it, there is a further Amendment on the Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend designed to exclude all cases of trusts where income may be accumulated for a beneficiary under the age of 25, whatever the beneficiary's interest may be on attaining that age. We consider that those exceptions meet all the normal cases that are likely to arise. Normally, it is only where minor children are beneficiaries under the settlement that we find income being accumulated. To that extent the substance of my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment has already been met. I would like also to emphasise the fact that there could never be a resulting trust to the settlor where the property of the settlement is taken absolutely by the beneficiary. It is only where the beneficiaries have contingent interests that a resulting trust ever arises.
    My hon. and learned Friend threw out the suggestion that I might possibly say that his Amendment offered prospects of evasion, and with that part of his argument I entirely agree. But I do not agree with him that it would require a very skilful draftsman to determine how that evasion could take place, because what he is proposing really would defeat the
    1172
    whole purpose of the Clause. It would be the easiest thing in the world for the settlor to arrange that the income should be accumulated on a trust that he knew certainly would fail, and which indeed he could cause to fail, and thereby obtain the benefit of the income. Let me take an example. Supposing that the settlor makes his settlement in favour of a beneficiary aged 80, and the settlement provides that the income is to be accumulated for a period of 20 years, with a resulting trust to himself, it would not take a very experienced draftsman to draft a settlement of that kind. That would be perfectly legal under the provision that my hon. and learned Friend would put in the Bill in substitution for ours.
    Mr. Spens: I did ask for this provision to go in this year, because, to take my hon. and learned Friend's instance, which is a perfectly proper one, it is most unlikely that the lady aged 8o would die before the next Finance Bill comes in, and unless she did, there would be nothing to go back to the settlor. I would suggest that if the hon. and learned Gentleman announces this year that any trust created after this date for the purpose of bringing about a resulting trust will be hit, it will meet the case.
    The Solicitor-General: I am afraid I do not find my hon. and learned Friend's argument very attractive, because he agrees with me, I understand, that there is an enormous loophole created by his Amendment, a loophole which any conveyancer would be able to see at once, if indeed my observations at this Box were not drawn to his attention, and I cannot conceive that it can be right that, knowing there is such a loophole as this, we should leave it in existence for another year. It would simply be making trouble. Nor has the hon. and learned Member indicated how he would deal with the situation next year; he has not suggested any form of words which would prevent the difficulties that I have been describing. In the situation that I have described, the lady would be 81, and there would be 19 years to go, and still there would be the resulting trust in favour of the settlor.
    I know that it is a very valuable deterrent that it should be said from this Box that if there be evasion, legislation of a retrospective character would be brought in later on to deal with it, but obviously

    1173
    that is a method the use of which must not be unlimited. I am bound to point out that my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment would leave this gigantic loophole, which anybody can see, and that it does not suggest any way in which it can be corrected, and in view of the fact that all reasonable exceptions have been provided for, or will be provided for, I must ask the House not to accept the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    6.20 p.m.
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, in page 42, line 23, to leave out "twenty-five," and to insert "thirty."
    This is an Amendment to one of the excepting provisos. As drafted, it excepts a case where the settlor would only succeed to the property on the death, under the age of 25, of some person who is the beneficiary entitled to the property. It is true that 25 is a very common age at which to give persons their full vested rights in property, but in a very great number of existing settlements the age of 30 exists, and I would therefore ask whether it is not possible for 30 to be substituted here.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to second the Amendment.
    6.22 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General: My hon. and learned Friend, I think, agrees that 25 is the more common age. I have no doubt that there may be one or two exceptional cases, here and there, where the age is given as 30, but all normal cases will be covered by the exception as the paragraph now stands. You have to draw a line somewhere; you cannot let the age rise to 70 or 80. If we advanced it to my hon. and learned Friend's figure of 30, we might be asked to increase it to 35, and then the 35's might think that 40 would be the more suitable age. In the circumstances, I think 25 is a reasonable compromise.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    6.23 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 42, line 26, at the end, to insert:
    "or if and so long as some person is alive and under the age of twenty-five during whose life that income or property cannot become payable or applicable as aforesaid except in
    1174
    the event of that person becoming bankrupt or assigning or charging his interest in that income or property."
    Sub-section (4) of Clause 35, the one that we have just been dealing with, defines the circumstances in which a settlor is deemed to have an interest in the income or property of a settlement for the purposes of Sub-section (3). To this general provision, however, the proviso to Sub-section (4) makes certain exceptions. Representations have been made to my right hon. Friend by hon. Members in the House that there are some genuine cases that will not be covered by the present exception in Sub-section (4, d), which provides an exception in favour of settlements where the funds will revert to the settlor only on the death of a beneficiary under the age of 25 or some lower age who would have become entitled to the property on attaining that age. The type of case which they have in mind is where the income of the settlement is being accumulated until the beneficiary reaches the age of 25 but at that age will not be entitled to the accumulated income or property of the settlement but only to the life interest in future income of the settlement. What is suggested is that there is no reason why that case should be brought within Subsection (3) any more than the cases which are already exempted under paragraph (d).
    My right hon. Friend feels that there is a great deal of substance in that suggestion and this Amendment has been drafted to cover not only that case but also any other case where income is being accumulated for a beneficiary under 25, whatever his interest on attaining that age, provided that the funds cannot revert to the settlor during the beneficiary's life, except in the event of that person becoming bankrupt or assigning his interest in the income or property.
    Amendment agreed to.
    6.26 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 43, line 15, at the end, to insert: "and
    "(c) the provisions of this Sub-section shall have effect, in relation to a settlement made before the twenty-seventh day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, subject to the provisions of Part 11 of the Third Schedule to this Act, and in that Part of that Schedule this Section is referred to as 'the relative Section.' "

    1175
    This Amendment is put down in pursuance of a promise given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass), on the Committee stage of the Bill, that an Amendment would be introduced to ensure that in the case of really genuine revocable settlements, where there was no intention to evade taxation, if prompt steps were taken to make those settlements irrevocable those settlements should not be treated as revocable settlements under the Bill. This Amendment as it stands only gives authority for the inclusion of the detailed provisions which are now made in the Third Schedule to the Bill, but if it would be for the convenience of the House and not passing beyond the Rules of Order, I would propose to refer to the substantive part of the Amendment, which appears in the Schedule.
    Mr. Speaker: I think it would be for the convenience of the House.
    The Solicitor-General: These words enable us in the Schedule on page 60 of the Bill at the end of line 31 to insert the provision appearing on page 1916 of the Order Paper. The first paragraph of that provision deals with settlements which are for annual payments and the second paragraph deals with capital settlements. Paragraph I dealing with annual payments provides that in the case of revocable settlements of this kind made before the Budget date the provisions which are in the Bill should not in general apply provided that certain conditions are satisfied. Those conditions are (1) if the settlor has released his power of revocation at the expiration of three months from the Finance Bill becoming law, or (2) if he has already made continuous annual payments for at least seven years, or (3) if it has been revoked and a new settlement made for a total period exceeding six years; in other words, the person who has in fact acted upon the settlement as though it were a perfectly irrevocable one and has not derived any benefit for himself is now given the opportunity of putting the matter in order and making it for the future irrevocable so that he shall not be subjected to the penalties of the Clause. To put it another way the settlor having treated his settlement as being irrevocable is now given the opportunity of making it in law irrevocable and saving it from
    1176
    the provisions of the Bill in regard to revocable settlements. Those are the provisions as regards the annual payment settlements.
    As regards the capital settlements dealt with in paragraph 2 of the provision to be inserted in the Schedule, similar provisions are made provided that the settlor has released his power of revocation so that the settlement is in fact completely irrevocable and that he has not received any consideration in respect of his release. The concession does not extend to the type of accumulator case with which we have been dealing where accumulated interest may be charged if the income or funds of the settlement may revert to the settlor. An Amendment was put down to this effect on the Committee stage, but not moved, and we felt that different considerations obviously applied in that case.
    By paragraph 3 there is the further condition that the concession shall not apply in the case of a settlement where since the beginning of 1937–38 the settlor has received any capital sum from the trustees of the settlement or any company connected with the settlement. Capital sum is later defined to include any sum which he obtains by way of loan or repayment. That is in order to see that nobody shall use what we characterise as tax-evading devices by which the settlor uses any provision of the settlement to get money back and pay no tax on it. Paragraph 4 is really explanatory, and paragraph 5 provides that in cases where the settlor has himself an unqualified power to revoke the concession under paragraphs 1 and 2 shall not apply. What we feel in regard to these cases is that they are really not settlements at all. It is one thing to have a settlement in the case of a charity revocable in certain circumstances; for example, a settlement in favour of a parish which shall continue for seven years, but is revocable with the consent of somebody. That consent would normally be given if a particular incumbent left or the character of the religious practices changed. It is another thing where the settlor himself has power to revoke the settlement, and we do not think that is a proper case in which to give him power to put the matter right. Paragraph 6 provides that husband and wife are to be treated as one, and paragraph 7 provides that the years to which Part 11 applies are 1937–38 and 1938–39.

    1177
    By these concessions the ordinary deeds for payment of charities as to poor relations will, we are satisfied, be properly safeguarded, and the promise that was given by my right hon. Friend to my lion. and gallant Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass) on the Committee stage will be fully implemented.
    6.33 p.m.
    Captain Sir William Brass: During the Committee stage my right hon. Friend promised that he would bring this suggestion forward as he did not accept the proviso which I suggested. He did not want to penalise any of the genuine cases, and I certainly did not want to encourage any tax evasions. I was only anxious that the genuine cases should be treated in the way in which my right hon. Friend has treated them, and I should like to thank him for what he has done. I am sure it will be felt all over the country that he has done the right thing and that all the genuine cases will be allowed to go on in the same way as they are at present, once they have made the deeds irrevocable.
    6.34 p.m.
    Mr. Benson: This Amendment is an excellent answer to the suggestion made by the hon. and learned Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) on a previous Amendment, that we should proceed by giving a solemn warning that next year any particular settlement of an evasive character should be dealt with by retrospective legislation. Last year the Chancellor gave us a warning and in the Finance Bill the legislation was made retrospective for one year. Here, owing to pressure from the back benches, he is revoking that retrospective legislation and is giving a considerable and, I think, unwarranted concession. There are two effects of this Amendment and the Amendment to the Schedule. They will take out of charge to tax the Surtax income which will be due next year, and there are some considerable concessions in respect of the revocable seven-years' settlement. It is fair to say that every seven-year settlement that has a revocable clause in it is a bogus settlement.
    Sir W. Brass: That is quite wrong.
    Mr. Benson: It has been founded solely for the purpose of evading tax. A seven-year settlement of income which has a revocable clause in it is not a settlement;
    1178
    it is merely an annual gift cast in the form of a settlement. The third-party clause in a settlement by which you must have the permission of a third party to break the settlement is no safeguard. In one of the cases brought by the Board of Inland Revenue on this point there was a settlement which could be broken by the consent of any third party. The judge put it to the Attorney-General that it meant that the settlor could go down the street asking one person after another whether they would agree to the revocation of his settlement, and as soon as he found some person who said, "Yes," that was an adequate and legal reason for breaking the settlement. When you make a settlement and you put in either some unspecified third party or a specified named party, you put it in in order that you may break the settlement and get rid of the binding clauses. The Chancellor in Committee referred to the instance given by the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman), who said:
    "I give the case of a wealthy man who was able to settle over £1,000 a year for a period of seven years on a certain number of charities. He did so by means of a revocable settlement not because of any desire to evade taxation but simply because his income was subject to fluctuations and as a prudent man he foresaw that it might not be possible for him to arrange his support of these charities for a considerable period ahead."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th June, 1938; col. 1631, Vol. 337.]
    The man referred to makes a seven years' trust and makes it revocable because he is never sure what his income will be. That is a bogus trust. He can break it any time he wants if he thinks his income is inadequate to give £1,000 to charity. What difference is there between that form of trust and an annual gift? There is none. What is the purpose of forming a trust of this kind which you can break at any time? The purpose is that if you cast your annual gift in the form of a seven-year trust you can set it against your income for tax purposes.
    The concession which the Chancellor proposes to make is that anyone who has one of these revocable trusts, can, if he drops the revocable clause continue the trust for the broken period that is left of seven years. If it is a revocable trust having run for three years, by eliminating the revoking clause it will be allowed to continue as a valid trust for the next four years. That means that those trusts which have been formed

    1179
    solely for the purpose of tax avoidance and where the revocability has not been exercised are to be allowed as valid trusts for the length of the period for which they were established. Let me give an example of two neighbours each of whom decide to give £100 a year to a given charity. One does it by an annual donation out of income which has borne tax, and the other does it under a seven years' trust which is revocable and which he can revoke by consent of any third party he likes to name with the exception of his wife. They have both paid for three years. Under the Amendment the man who has made the tax avoidance trust and who has collected tax back on his £100 can establish his trust for the next four years and still avoid tax. If the man who has paid on an annual basis and has paid full tax wants to establish a tax avoiding trust, he cannot do it under less than a seven-years' trust. In other words, the annual donor is penalised and the donor who has established a tax avoiding trust is put in a favourable position. We should not agree to legislation which gives a favour to people who have established trusts for the purpose of avoiding tax.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 39.—(Further provisions as to subsidiary companies.)
    6.42 p.m.
    Sir J. Simon: I beg to move, page 49, line 31, at the end, to insert:
    "and the time within which such a notice may be given in respect of any chargeable accounting period shall be extended to six months from the end of that period or such longer time as the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may in any case allow."
    This Amendment carries us to a part of the Bill which proposes some minor Amendments of the National Defence Contribution. This Amendment and the three which follow have to do with the period within which a claim must be made by a parent company to bring the affairs of a subsidiary company into the same accounting period with itself for purposes of National Defence Contribution. We had that provision in the original scheme of the tax, and as we enacted it last year we provided that the parent company must exercise its option within two months after the accounting period of the subsidiary company and must give notice within those two months
    1180
    that it requires the profits and losses of the two concerns to be amalgamated for the purposes of the tax. Experience has shown that that is not a workable period. It may be two months after the end of the chargeable accounting period, but that is not the same thing as two months after the date when the accounts are made up, and many cases arose where the accounts of the subsidiary would not have been made up in time for this option to be exercised properly. This is a matter of machinery. It is not a question of giving anybody any advantage, except the advantage of having a time-table which is a workable and practicable one. The Amendments which follow are purely consequential.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 50, line 11, leave out "two," and insert "six."
    In line 12, after "Act," insert "or such longer time as the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may in any case allow."
    In line 17, leave out "two," and insert "six."— Sir J. Simon.]

    CLAUSE 42.—(Estate Duty on cesser by death of a limited interest in unascer tained residue. 57 & 58 Vict. c. 30.)
    6.47 P.m.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 52, line 35, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that, in a case where that person died before the commencement of this Act and no estate duty was paid in respect of the cesser of that interest before the commencement of this Act, any question as to the operation of Part I of the Finance Act, 1894, in relation to his death shall be determined without regard to the provisions of this Section."
    One of the subsidiary results of Clause 42 is that in certain cases the charge of Estate Duty on the specific assets representing a testator's estate would come within the operation of the Clause. As I explained on the Committee stage, that is a practice which has been in operation since 1894, but as the Clause stands at present—though not being its main object —it would deprive the subject of his rights in a particular case which is at the present moment under appeal in the House of Lords, where a particular point is being taken. If the Clause goes through as it stands the subject, in the middle of his litigation, is deprived of his rights, and

    1181
    one or two other individuals whose cases are waiting the decision in that case would also be deprived of their rights. In order that there may be the utmost fairness shown by the Revenue towards the taxpayer, which is always the object, and to preserve those rights in the case that I have referred to, which I do not mention by name, and the other cases which are awaiting the result of that case, I move this Amendment.
    6.48 p.m.
    Mr. Benson: I should like to ask when these cases arose. I am given to understand that this particular flaw in our legislation was only recently discovered and that the Government are hurrying to put it right before any litigation could appear. Have these cases arisen since the Finance Bill was published, or before?
    The Solicitor-General: The case I referred to and the other cases have been going on for a long time, and, further than that, the point that we are saving here is a completely subsidiary point in the argument in that case. The point has already been decided against the litigant in the court of first instance and in the Court of Appeal, but at the present moment it is in the House of Lords. If Clause 42 is passed in its present form the point will not be open to him, but this Amendment will keep it open.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 44.—(Amendments as respects property transferred to, and shares in, certain companies.)
    6.50 p.m.
    Lord Ansley: I beg to move, in page 53, line 19, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that this Sub-section shall not apply in any case where the transfer or transfers in respect of which the liability to Estate Duty arises under the provisions of the said Section thirty-five were made before the commencement of the said Act."
    The reason why this Amendment, which stands in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Clifton Brown) and myself, is being moved on Report stage, is that when we discussed the matter on Committee stage and went fully into the arguments, which I do not propose to repeat to-night, there appeared to be some hesitation and difficulty on the Treasury Bench as to the exact difference between companies which came under
    1182
    Clause 35 and those which came under Clause 34 of the Finance Act, 1930. The argument was that the Treasury were unable to grant the relief which was proposed by this Amendment on the ground that there might be some tax evasion. Both the cases which the Chancellor of the Exchequer then cited concerned companies which came under Clause 34, and our contention was that though there might possibly be some tax evasion in the case of Clause 34 there could not be any under Clause 35. These companies are all landed estate companies, all based on settlements. There are not very many of them and those that do exist are mostly of very old standing, and were in being long before the Finance Act, 1930, was passed. Indeed, there can be no question of there being any intention of tax evasion.
    Those companies will be severely hit by the Clause in the present Finance Bill. We put forward the plea, also, that Lord Snowden gave the concession to non-aggregations of property in the Finance Act, 1930, and it cannot be contended that Lord Snowden was a great friend of landed proprietors. He was, indeed, a Whig of the old school, and therefore, to a certain extent, swayed by the political prejudices which hon. Members opposite sometimes seem to have inherited. Although the political situation to-day is very different from what it was in the days of the old Whig, their views are remarkably conservative and they find it hard to get rid of those old prejudices. I think that Lord Snowden did go into the question very thoroughly, and did say that the case of these companies was a hard case under Clause 35, and for that reason gave the concession. Therefore, we ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go thoroughly into the point himself, as no doubt he has done, and tell us whether there is any reason why that relief which was given by Lord Snowden should not be maintained.
    We consider that there will be this additional hardship. When those companies were formed they paid very heavy Stamp Duties to the Revenue, and that was possibly one of the reasons which swayed Lord Snowden when he decided to give relief to non-aggregated property. Having given that relief and allowed them to run for a number of years I think it would be hard suddenly to change the financial order again and take back what

    1183
    had been given by a Labour Lord Chancellor. I would also urge the argument that the heavy burden which Death Duties are in the case of landed estates should not be overlooked from a Treasury point of view. If capital is taken away every few years, whenever there is a death, it will be correspondingly more difficult for owners to pay their Income Tax and Surtax under Schedule A, and the Treasury are bound to lose money. Owners have to sell portions of their estates in order to pay, and those portions come into the hands of small individuals who do not pay taxation at the same high rate of Surtax, and the Treasury are bound to lose. That argument ought to be considered by the Treasury, who should also compare the amount of revenue they lose from the same source when landed estates come under the State. When we get figures of these estates in the Estimates no account is taken of the Income Tax and Surtax which are lost to the Treasury or of the Death Duties which are lost. It might be equally well argued that when those companies are formed they were formed for tax evasion and the same in the case of co-operative estates.
    Sir Sydney Wells: I beg to second the Amendment.
    6.55 p.m.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I should like to say a word in regard to the position of Lord Snowden, as the Noble Lord has referred to him. It is quite incorrect to say that Lord Snowden deliberately gave a concession to this particular form of company because he thought there was nothing unsuitable in a company being constructed in this way. The facts are entirely different. Before the passage of the Finance Act, 1930, no obstacle had been placed in the way of persons evading taxation by forming companies of this kind. A provision in the Act of 1930 was designed to stop that evasion, but when the draft came to be considered there was found to have been an error in the drafting and the provision did not completely meet the case. All that Lord Snowden did was not to rectify that error in the course of the passage of the Bill, and it was definitely stated by me on Third Reading that there might still be some means of evading direct taxation, but that what Lord Snowden had done, and what it was our intention by that Bill to do, was to put up a signpost saying that
    1184
    if people evaded their due liabilities they would be dealt with when the time came. It is incorrect to say that Lord Snowden deliberately left this loophole for evading taxation. The Act of 1930 made a very great advance in stopping evasion, and it was hoped that it would be a warning to people not to use such methods in the future. Therefore, I support the proposal in the present Bill, and I am entirely against allowing those who have evaded taxation by means of the loophole left in the Act of 1930 being free to escape their due liabilities.
    6.58 p.m.
    Sir J. Simon: It was interesting to hear the account given by the right hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) because he was Financial Secretary to the Treasury when the Finance Act, 1930, was carried through this House. I must say that I have found it rather difficult to understand why the Socialist Chancellor should have permitted Sub-section (3) of Section 35 to stand as it is, and I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for explaining it. As far as I am concerned, the matter stands in this way: That Section 35 deals with the formation of companies in the case of settled estates. I do not think my Noble Friend was right in saying that it is limited to agricultural estates. There might be a settlement of stocks and shares or of anything you please; as long as there is a settlement it comes under Section 35. The general arrangement in the case of a settlement was this—for simplicity's sake, I will take an agricultural settlement; that if there was a transfer of the different interests to an estate company formed for the purpose it was thought necessary to secure that the Revenue should be protected from loss of Estate Duty.
    Of course, if the life tenant transfers his interest to a company and takes shares in consideration of his transfer, as he ordinarily would do, the shares in the company will belong to him and will pass on his death and they will be, broadly speaking, of the same value as the estate that he transfers. It will be as broad as it is long, and he will pay Estate Duty in respect of the shares which represent the land. It is only if arrangements are made for the transfer of his interest and the interest of the remainder that anything different will happen. It is

    1185
    possible to imagine a case in which the life tenant instead of taking the shares is appointed by the company to be governing director at a salary equal to the annual revenue of the estate and the shares are allotted not to him but to the reversioner. If that is what happens since the annual salary which may be very substantial, necessarily dies with him when he dies Estate Duty no longer attaches as it would if he was passing over the land or the shares to his representatives.
    The formation of estate companies may often be a businesslike way of managing agricultural property and we ought not to do anything to discourage it. There may be many good reasons why they should be formed, but that is really no reason why there should be a substantial avoidance or reduction of the Estate Duty. It is a mystery why in the Act of 1930 Lord Snowden said that in this particular case there should not be any aggregation of this property with the rest of the property of a man when he dies. It is an elementary principle in the working of Estate Duty that you bring together all the different properties which belonged to the deceased and pass at his death for the purpose of applying the proper rates of Estate Duty to them. For a reason which does not seem easy to discover, and which the right hon. Gentleman has explained was certainly not deliberate, in this case by a remarkable exception it was said that the property represented by the estate company should be dealt with as an estate by itself. I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for explaining the rather mysterious circumstances in which it happened, but I really think there is no sufficient reason why we should not apply the ordinary rule. The Government takes up this attitude through no desire at all to penalise the progressive management of agricultural estates. Undoubtedly everything should be done to encourage it. It is not, as far as I am concerned, that I do not appreciate the very heavy burdens that fall on agricultural owners. They certainly do, but I think our law on the matter must be consistent. I see no reason why we should have this very remarkable and almost unique exception on the Statute Book entirely contrary to the general principle of the law relating to Estate Duty.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

  THIRD SCHEDULE.—(Supplementary pro- visions as to settlements.)
  Amendment made: In page 60, line 31, at the end, insert:

  PART II.
  Special provisions as respects settlements made before the twenty-seventh day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight.
  1. Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Schedule, in the case of a settlement made before the twenty-seventh day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, Subsection (1) of the relative Section shall not, by reason only of the provisions of paragraph (a) thereof, apply to sums payable by the settlor by virtue or in consequence of any provision of the settlement in a year to which this Part of this Schedule applies, if—

  (a) at the expiration of three months from the date of the passing of this Act—

  (i) no person has or can have any such power as is referred to in the said paragraph (a) and

  (ii) the settlor has not received and is not entitled to receive any consideration in respect of the release or disclaimer of any such power; or

  (b) the like annual payments have been payable by the settlor by virtue or in consequence of that provision of the settlement in each of the seven years of the assessment ending with a year to which this Part of this Schedule applies; or

  (c) before the expiration of three months from the date of the passing of this Act—

  (i) the settlement, or the provision by virtue or in consequence whereof the annual payments are payable, has been revoked; and

  (ii) a new settlement has been made by the settlor by virtue or in consequence whereof the settlor is liable to make the like annual payments and cannot, except in the event of his death, cease to he liable to make those payments before the expiration of six years from the date when the first of the annual payments payable by virtue or in consequence of the revoked settlement became payable:

  Provided that where any income arising under the settlement in a year to which this Part of this Schedule applies has not been distributed, the foregoing provisions of this paragraph shall have effect as if there were substituted for the reference to sums payable by the settlor in that year a reference to the amount, if any, by which the sums so payable in that year exceed the income arising under the settlement in that year which has not been distributed.
  2. Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Schedule, in the case of a settlement made before the twenty-seventh day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, income arising under the settlement in any year to which this Part of this Schedule applies which would, but for this paragraph, be treated by virtue of Sub-section (2) of the relative Section as the income of the settlor

  1187
  and not as the income of any other person, shall not be so treated or, in a case where any income arising under the settlement in that year has not been distributed, shall not be so treated to the extent that it exceeds the amount of income arising under the settlement in that year which has not been distributed if, at the expiration of three months from the date of the passing of this Act—

  (a) no person has or can have any such power as is referred to in the said Subsection (2); and

  (b) the settlor has not received and is not entitled to receive any consideration in respect of the release or disclaimer of any such power.

  3. The foregoing provisions of this Part of this Schedule shall not apply to any settlement if, in any year to which this Part of this Schedule applies, any capital sum within the meaning of Section thirty-seven of this Act has been paid to the settler directly or indirectly by the trustees of the settlement or any body corporate connected with the settlement in that year.
  4. Notwithstanding that the payments payable by virtue or in consequence of any such new settlement as is referred to in sub-paragraph (c) (ii) of paragraph 1 of this Part of this Schedule are payble to or applicable for the benefit of another person for a period which cannot exceed six years from the date when the settlement was made, they shall not be treated as the income of the settler by virtue of paragraph (b) of Sub-section (1) of Section twenty of the Finance Act, 1922.
  5. Paragraphs r and 2 of this Part of this Schedule shall not apply to any income which would have been treated as the income of the settlor for any purpose by virtue of paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section twenty of the Finance Act, 1922, but for the provisions of this Act relating to that paragraph.
  6. In this Part of this Schedule references to the settlor, except where that expression first occurs in paragraph 2, include references to the wife or husband of the settlor.
  7. The years to which this Part of this Schedule applies are the year 1937–38 and the year 1938–39.—[Sir J. Simon.]

  FIFTH SCHEDULE.—(Miscellaneous enact ments repealed.)
  Amendment made: In page 65, leave out lines 38 to 43.—[Sir J. Simon.]
  Bill to be read the Third time upon Friday, and to he printed. [Bill 215.]

  ANGLO-TURKISH (ARMAMENTS CREDIT) AGREEMENT BILL.
  Again considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  MILK (EXTENSION AND AMEND- MENT) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair.]

  CLAUSE 1.—(Extension of period for Exchequer payments in connection with milk sold or used for manufacture.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  7.8 p.m.
  Mr. T. Williams: I wish to ask a question appertaining to the recent increase in the price of liquid milk. Because of the absence of rain for a very short time grass was not growing at the normal rate and the cost of producing feeding stuffs increased. Application was, therefore, made by the Milk Marketing Board for an increase in the price of liquid milk, and the arbitrator awarded them 4d. a gallon for the month of July. That lifted it to the highest price for very many years. Distributors of milk in many cases have been making fairly nice profits out of their part of the bargain, and it was felt by a large number of people, in view of the very high cost of milk, that the distributors should bear some part of the increased price of 2S. 4d. It has been brought to my notice this very day from letters received that certain milk retailers would have been happy to bear a share of the increase and, instead of charging 7d. a quart, they would have continued to charge 6d. during July. They are in fear and trembling that they may lose many of their customers during this month and, when they are lost, it is always most difficult to get them back. Apparently the milk distributors have taken a decision on these lines, that only in an area where an absolutely unanimous decision has been taken by distributors can they sell their milk at less than 7d. a quart. Therefore a person who would be willing to sell at 6d. is obliged to charge 7d., although 6d. would be a paying proposition.
  The House has not been ungenerous to the Milk Marketing Board nor to the distributors, because to the extent that it has subsidised production at all it has indirectly tended also to subsidise distribution. One would have thought that in the very extraordinary circumstances of July the Ministry might have consulted with

  1189
  the Milk Marketing Board and with the large and small distributors and invited them not to impose this extra burden on consumers if the retailers could find it possible during this single month to carry on without imposing it. The biggest problem of the milk industry is its inability to sell the maximum quantity of liquid milk. To the extent that they fail to sell it they have to sell it to the factories at 6d. or 7d. a gallon. I think in any case they are doing themselves a bit of no good in imposing this further burden upon consumers when there are millions who are unable to buy the appropriate quantities at 2s. and 3s. a gallon. Although grass refused to grow at the normal rate during the drought period of May and June, the nourishment must have remained in the soil and, now that the rains have arrived, It will be available in July, August and onward, and I am wondering if at some future period, instead of increasing the price from 2S. to 2s. 4d., when dairy cattle are being fed for little or nothing at all, milk will come down from 2s. to is. 8d. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether or not he made representations in any way to the Milk Marketing Board and to general distributors to avoid this further imposition upon the poorest section of consumers.
  7.14 P.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. W. S. Morrison): The question the hon. Member has raised is somewhat novel to me because, as he said, the facts on which he founded his question were only brought to his notice to-day. The matter to which he refers arises out of a term of the contract between the Milk Marketing Board, representing producers, and the Central Milk Distributive Committee; representing the purchasers, whereby it was agreed between both parties that the price might be varied when special circumstances arose which seriously affected the cost of production. This drought which the hon. Gentleman dismissed very lightly had the effect, the producers claim, of increasing the cost of production because they had to supplement the normal summer ration of cows by purchasing imported foodstuffs. Though, as the hon. Gentleman says, the nourishment may be in the ground, the farmer's problem is to get the nourishment from the ground to the cow, through the usual channels. In these special circumstances there was, under the contract agreed upon by both sides, a
  1190
  procedure which is not within my scope at all and which arises out of stipulations entered into between the Milk Marketing Board and the buyers, represented by the committee I have mentioned.
  As I have said, the question of which the hon. Member gave me notice is novel to me. I am as anxious as anyone can be to secure that milk shall be abundant and cheap to as many of our people as possible, consistent with a proper remuneration to the man who undertakes the labour and the risk, and I will undertake to examine the matter and to see whether there is anything which I can do. No doubt the hon. Member will remember that the problem of distribution, which is very important, is not provided for in this Measure and that there are proposals which we hope to bring before this House next Session. In the meantime I will examine the hon. Gentleman's suggestions further and see whether I can do anything.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Extension of period, and increase of amount, of Exchequer payments in connection with schemes for increasing the demand for milk.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. Leonard: There is a point on which I should like a little information. The explanatory Memorandum is rather more explanatory than these Memoranda usually are. We are informed that the Act of 1934 permitted the Government to direct certain moneys towards the Milk Marketing Board for the purpose of popularising milk and increasing the demand for it, and that there was a limitation of £2,000,000. The Measure now before us is to extend the period during which such sums can be directed to the board, and there is a provision made for increasing the amount, with a restriction to £750,000. I would direct the attention of the Committee to the fifth annual general meeting of the registered producers, of which meeting I have the report here. I notice in the balance-sheet at the end of the report three items which are rather interesting. I see that the producers have put to their contract emergency

  1191
  reserve the sum of £153,387, to capital reserve account £338,156, and to general reserve no less than £852,991; so that in the reserve accounts of the English Milk Marketing Board alone—I have no knowledge of the balance-sheet of the Scottish Board—there is a reserve of £1,344,534. I am wondering whether, in view of that fact, the Minister is content to ask the House to grant more money to the board. Is he satisfied that it is necessary to give this money and should it not be used for popularising the further consumption of milk?
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: The accounts of the Milk Marketing Board showing the balances to which the hon. Member has drawn attention are the concern of the producers themselves. If it were alleged that the board were keeping too much in reserve and distributing too little, that would be a matter between the board on the one hand and the producers, who are their constituents, on the other. The Clause deals, not with something which is purely a matter of interest to the producers of milk, but with certain schemes which are described as methods for increasing the demand for, and popularising the consumption of, milk, the best known of which are the milk-in-schools scheme and the scheme which was adumbrated in order to provide milk for nursing and expectant mothers and for children under school age. The whole community is interested in these matters, apart from the demand for milk, and they are matters in which the Milk Marketing Board should be assisted. The producers of milk should not be asked to bear the whole cost of these social services themselves, but should be assisted by Exchequer grants in order to make the schemes possible.
  The Clause merely extends for another year the annual provision of £500,000, and adds another £250,000, because we are extending the schemes. We hope to extend them in the coming year to mothers and children and also to make certain improvements in the distribution of milk in schools. I do not think that the hon. Member can object to producers of milk putting their own money to reserve. The amount which is held in reserve may seem large when it is considered apart from the turnover which it represents, but the hon. Member should
  1192
  remember that the Milk Marketing Board handle a turnover of from £50,000,000 to £60,000,000 a year, and no adequate criticism can be passed as to the prudence or otherwise of holding £1,000,000 in reserve without taking that into account. The Clause deals with Exchequer money for the beneficiaries of the scheme. It is a matter for which the community has some responsibility and is not one to be shouldered altogether by the producers of milk in this country.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 3.—(Release of milk marketing boards and Government of Northern Ireland from obligation to make payments to Exchequer.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. Leonard: I would like to raise another small point upon this Clause, in which it is proposed to relieve the boards from liability. I wonder whether we might be advised as to the total sum already paid under this heading by the Government and the amount of liability of the Exchequer still outstanding.
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: This Clause implements the promise made in the White Paper of last July. For the months of June, July and August, 1937, the boards will have to make repayments totaling £133,000. A further sum would have to be repaid in respect of some early months of this year if the boards were not relieved of their liability, but the total amount that might have become repayable would depend upon the future course of prices. This question is linked up with an alteration in the form of assistance given to the milk marketing boards in respect of manufacturing milk. Prior to the proposed new milk legislation, the assistance was given by way of repayable advances, but the White Paper proposed, instead of repayable advances, a price insurance scheme upon a different arithmetical and accounting basis. This Clause enables the transition from one scheme to the other to be carried through without complicated accounting and should be regarded as related to the change-over from one kind of insurance scheme to the other.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Schedule agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

  WAR DEPARTMENT PROPERTY BILL [Lords].
  Order for Second Reading read.
  7.27 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Sir Victor Warrender): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  This is a very small and short Bill, and I think I can explain it to the House in a very few sentences. It is designed to relieve the Secretary of State for War of the duty which he has at present of having personally to sign documents in connection with the acquisition, management and disposal of land or property in respect of which he is expressed to be a party. Under this Bill such documents will be executed by the Under-Secretary of State or any other person whom the Secretary of State may depute. Neither the First Lord of the Admiralty nor the Secretary of State for Air is personally required to sign documents of this character. The First Lord of the Admiralty has enjoyed this relief for some time; the Secretary of State for Air was given the relief under Section 26 (4) of the Air Navigation Act, 1936, on which Act the provisions of this Bill are based.
  Perhaps I might remind the House that during the passage of the Air Navigation Bill no objection was taken to this proposal, and in the circumstances I do not think it will be unfair of me to claim that the Bill is non-controversial. There is nothing in the Bill which increases or diminishes the powers of the Secretary of State for War with respect to the acquisition or disposal of War Department land, or the rights of any interested parties in those undertakings. It is merely a matter of convenience. During the last four years, the number of these documents which the Secretary of State has had to sign has steadily increased, as is only natural having regard to the extension of activity which has taken place in all the Service Departments. As a matter of fact, during the first six months of this year the number of these documents
  1194
  requiring his personal signature has exceeded the yearly average previous to 1937. There is some delay, or danger of delay or inconvenience under the present system. If for any reason the Secretary of State is not available, either through sickness or by reason of being on a short holiday these documents have to be held up. Once the Bill is on the Statute Book, all such delays in future will be obviated. I hope that in the circumstances the House will agree to pass the Bill without discussion.
  Mr. Davidson: Does the procedure now suggested mean that these documents which had to be signed by the Secretary of State himself in the past can now be signed by someone else without his sanction or knowledge; or will it be necessary to submit them for his approval before they are signed?
  Sir V. Warrender: Under this procedure, whoever is authorised by the Secretary of State to sign, will do so on his behalf. There are many other occasions on which action is taken on behalf of the Secretary of State without his personal instructions, and in all these cases any formal objections or other matters that might be raised on behalf of interested parties will have been agreed to and settled before the actual signature takes place.
  7.32 p.m.
  Mr. Gallacher: The hon. Gentleman has said that the Bill will not increase or decrease the powers of the Secretary of State over land or property in the hands of the War Department, but is there not a possibility that it will increase very considerably his present extensive powers?
  Sir V. Warrender: I do not know what the hon. Member has in mind. I can assure him that this is purely a question of machinery which in no way affects either the rights of any citizen of this country or the powers of the Secretary of State.
  7.33 P.m.
  Mr. Davidson: I am perfectly satisfied with the reply that the hon. Gentleman has given to me, and I should like to say that personally I welcome this Measure. Any relief from ordinary routine duties that can be afforded to the Secretary of

  1195
  State for War will, I am sure, be welcomed by many Members of the House who have been entirely dissatisfied in the past with his inadequate treatment of our questions.
  7.34 P.m.
  Sir H. Seely: Personally I agree with the Bill. I quite understand that the Secretary of State has had a great deal to do in signing these various documents, which might easily be signed by other people. I do not think, however, that this case can quite be compared with that of the Admiralty, because the War Office has had rights for a very long time over a great deal of land. In fact, I myself, in the Isle of Wight, am very interested in several matters which arise where the War Department have interests which run parallel to mine. Those interests, which they acquired about the year 1805, interfere a great deal with the landlords who are there now. When one has had difficulties, as one always has, with a landlord who has no longer any use for his land, but who nevertheless has rights over it, as the War Office have in many parts of the country, hitherto one has been able to get the attention of the Secretary of State himself in dealing with these matters, and he was able to take action which perhaps could not have been taken by an Under-Secretary or someone else who might be deputed to sign the documents. I hope that this Bill will not mean that the same interest will not be taken in future as has been taken in the past by the Secretary of State in these problems.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Thursday.—[Captain Dugdale.]

  ROAD HAULAGE WAGES (No. 2) BILL.
  Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.—[Mr. Lennox-Boyd.]
  Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Functions of Central Board and of area boards.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 3, line 27, leave out "their," and insert "its."
  7.36 P.m
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Lennox-Boyd): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  This Amendment and the following one are purely drafting Amendments.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Subsequent Lords Amendment, in page 3, line 39, agreed to.
  Lords Amendment: In page 3, line 41, at the end, insert:
  "(4) In framing proposals for fixing remuneration under this Part of this Act in respect of any work, the board shall take into consideration any decision of a joint industrial council, conciliation hoard or other similar body relating to the remuneration of workers employed on road haulage work which may be brought to the notice of the board."
  7.38 p.m.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  The Amendment authorises the board to take into consideration any decision of the Joint Industrial Council, but does not oblige the board to accept such decision.
  7.39 P.m.
  Mr. Benjamin Smith: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us what body he visualises as likely to have any effect on the Central Board which governs the conduct of the A and B licence holders? Does the Amendment mean that the board must work backwards and give consideration to the Conciliation Board's agreements with regard to the C licence holders, in whose case wages are notoriously low? If that be so, I think it would be wrong to accept the Amendment. On the other hand, it seems to me that, since the Central Board is to be the only body competent to deal with the A and B licence holders, there can really be no other body-which the board can consult or take cognisance of. If we are going to permit extraneous organisations arising from the area boards to run side by side with the Central Board, I think we shall wreck the good work that was done on the Bill in this House.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Some of those arguments would have relevance if there were an obligation on the board to listen to recommendations which have been made in the past by the Joint Industrial Council, but there is no such obligation. The new Sub-section merely authorises them to do so, and, as the hon. Member is no doubt aware, it has been more or less agreed by the unions interested.
  7.40 p.m.
  Mr. Davidson: Would the new Subsection allow the Area Board that is to be established in Scotland to take into consideration representations from the Scottish Horse and Motormen's Association, a trade union which has been established in Scotland for many years, and which has itself set up very efficient machinery to deal with wages and conditions in Scotland?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The new Sub-section deals only with the Central Board.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
  Subsequent Lords Amendments, to page 6, line 31, agreed to.

  CLAUSE 5.—(Power of Industrial Court to fix statutory remuneration.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 9, line 8, after "employer," insert:
  "or an organisation of employers of which he is a member."
  7.42 p.m.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  This Amendment carries out an undertaking given by the Minister to my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams) to look into the matter. It enables the C licence holder to leave the matter of applying for a review of the decision of the Industrial Court in the hands of his own organisation.
  Mr. Benjamin Smith: Does this mean that the individual employer is to get no locus at all? What will happen if he is not a member of any organisation?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It enables either the individual employer or the organisation representing him to make the application.
  Colonel Sandeman Allen: I should like to thank the Government for the insertion
  1198
  of this Amendment. It is one of the points that I pressed during the Committee stage.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 6.—(Duty to pay statutory remuneration.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 9, line 37, leave out, "in the foregoing Sub-section," and insert:
  "For the purposes of the last foregoing Sub-section the net remuneration obtainable by a worker in respect of any work after allowing for his necessary expenditure, if any, in connection with the work shall be deemed to be the remuneration paid to him and."
  7.44 P.m.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I beg to move, "That this House cloth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  The Amendment is for the purpose of making it clear that the net remuneration received by a road haulage worker shall be arrived at after allowing for any necessary expenses incurred by the worker.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 10, line 34, agreed to.

  CLAUSE 7.—(Remedies for default).
  Lords Amendment: In page II, line 35, at the end, insert:
  "(8) If any person is convicted under Part I of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, of using a goods vehicle for a purpose for which an A licence, a B licence or a C licence is required, otherwise than under such a licence, any road haulage work performed by a road haulage worker in connection with the vehicle while it was being so used shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act to have been road haulage work in connection with a goods vehicle specified in an A licence, a B licence or a C licence granted under that Act, as the case may be, and the provisions of this and of the last foregoing Section shall apply accordingly."
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  The object of the Amendment is to prevent any person who unlawfully uses a goods vehicle from escaping altogether the obligations which would fall upon him if the vehicle had been lawfully used. It will cover the case of those persons who have no licence but ought to have

  1199
  one, or who drive a vehicle with a wrong licence.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Subsequent Lords Amendments, to page 16, line 36, agreed to.

  FIRST SCHEDULE (Constitution and Pro ceedings of Road Haulage Wages Boards).
  Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 10, after "formed," insert:
  "or if thereafter such a quorum ceases to be present."
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  The object of the Amendment is to prevent proceedings being held up by the absence of members of the board who have attended at the beginning of the meeting and withdrawn during the course of the meeting.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  THIRD SCHEDULE (Definitions of Road Haulage Worker and Road Haulage Work).
  Lords Amendment: In page 21, line 15, after "waiting" insert "whether over-night or otherwise."
  This is a purely precautionary Amendment, to make it quite clear that subsistence allowance will be paid for waiting periods away from home, whether overnight or otherwise.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Lords Amendment: In page 21, line 19, after "Board," insert "and with such organisations of employers and workers as he thinks proper."
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
  7.48 p.m.
  Mr. Davidson: I would like some further elucidation of this. I entirely agree with the Amendment, but I would like to know how far it extends. The Scottish Horse and Motormen's Association, as a trade union, have conducted negotiations for the Scottish road haulage workers for many years, and they have felt for a considerable time that this Bill was taking away some of their hard-won rights with regard to Scottish affairs. Will the Central Board, when discussing
  1200
  questions affecting Scottish conditions, do it through the area board; and will the viewpoint of that association be taken into consideration?
  7.49 P.m.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It is, of course, the intention that the Central Board, and indeed the area boards, shall consult with all organisations which have profitable contributions to make. I have no doubt that the organisation to which the hon. Member has referred is of such a nature. This Amendment is designed to bring "C" licence holders within the scope of the third paragraph of the Third Schedule. The Third Schedule defines the scope of Part I and Part II of the Bill. The Central Board is concerned only with Part I, but as "C" licence holders will also be concerned it is thought desirable to bring them in.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

  NAVAL DISCIPLINE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  As amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.

  FOOD AND DRUGS BILL [Lords].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair.]
  Clauses 1 to 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  FOOD AND DRUGS BILL [Lords].

    CLAUSE 5.—(Provisions as to label.)
    7.52 p.m.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernays): I beg to move, in page 4, line 31, after "use," to insert "without any material variation."
    This Amendment is intended to meet the point raised on behalf of a number of manufacturers. Sub-section (2) as drafted, following the existing law, is in effect an exemption for labels continuously in use since certain specified dates. It has been pointed out that if the words "continuously in use" are interpreted strictly it would prevent a manufacturer from altering the labels in the most trivial way—for instance, by adding a replica of a new medal which his product has secured.
    7.53 p.m.
    Mr. McCorquodale: On behalf of the printing industry, which does not want to see archaic designs perpetuated for ever, I thank my hon. Friend for putting this Amendment down.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Consequential Amendment made.
    Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Clauses 6 to 56 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 57.—(Licensing of slaughter houses and knackers' yards.)
    Amendment made: In page 43, hue 32, leave out "particular" and insert "respect."—[Mr. Bernays.]
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    7.55 p.m.
    Mr. Marshall: I suggest that the Minister should elucidate this Clause for our benefit, and explain the effect of the changes that are made.
    Mr. Bernays: I assure the hon. Member that there are no material changes.
    Mr. Marshall: Is it not a fact that registered slaughter-houses now become licensed under the Bill? That makes a very definite change, and affects local authorities particularly.
    Mr. Bernays: No substantial change is effected.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clauses 58 to 60 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 61.—(Elimination of private slaughter-houses.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    7.56 p.m.
    Mr. Marshall: It appears to me that this Clause brings within the scope of compensation slaughter-houses which have never hitherto been subject to compensation. As I understand the present position it is this: A local authority builds a new abattoir, and there is necessarily a reduction in the number of private slaughter-houses. They usually find that those slaughter-houses are divided into two classes—registered, in respect of which compensation is not
    1202
    payable, and licensed in respect of which compensation is payable. Clause 57 appears to convert registered slaughterhouses into licensed slaughter-houses. That is a serious thing for local authorities attempting the building of new abattoirs. A large local authority which is going to build a new abattoir, in the interests of public health, is to be subject to all sorts of regulations. It is very rarely that a local authority, having built such a slaughter-house, can make a profit out of it. I think that, as a rule, it entails a loss on the slaughtering section of that particular slaughter-house. One can imagine the consternation if there is to be an additional expense put on local authorities now to compensate slaughterhouses which have hitherto not been subject to compensation.
    7.58 p.m.
    Colonel Sandeman Allen: I would like to say a word in reply to what the hon. Member has said. Where part of their livelihood is to be taken away from some of the slaughterers, because alternative slaughtering is being provided by the municipality, is it suggested that, because the municipality wants to make a profit, the private slaughterer is not to have compensation? I hope the Minister will allow compensation under the Clause, arid not steal from these private slaughterers their means of livelihood.
    7.59 p.m.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I would point out, in answer to the last speaker, that there has been a vested interest which local authorities have been compelled to buy out when building abattoirs in the past—that is, the registered slaughter-houses, which could not be closed. Other slaughter-houses have existed on licence from the local authorities, on the understanding that the licence was granted from year to year, and on condition that it could either be granted or withheld as the local authority so determined. The fact that under such conditions a slaughterer has gone on with his work, surely does not entitle him to compensation in the event of the local authority seeking to have that slaughtering carried out by more hygienic and up-to-date methods. If this Bill does incidentally convert what has hitherto been a yearly licence into a licence lasting for all time and consequently adds considerably to its value, it is a point which needs looking into.
    8.1 p.m.
    Mr. Elliot: The position has become clearer to the House after the discussion which has taken place. The local authority used to have power previously to refuse to grant a licence, but if it refused to grant a licence there was an appeal to the court of summary jurisdiction. This Clause, it is true, makes a change in the law; it gives a local authority an additional power to pass a resolution allowing an appeal to the Minister, after which no more slaughter-house licences can be granted, and, of course, compensation can be given. It is a convenience to all concerned. Previously, the local authority had only power to stop a licence. Under the Bill the local authority has not only power not to continue the individual licence, but in that alternative case there is a condition under which compensation can be given, and an appeal will lie with the Minister. That has been found convenient in local Acts and it is now being laid down in a general Act. I think that explanation meets the case.
    8.2 p.m.
    Mr. Marshall: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has grasped the significance of this matter. The Clause deals with the elimination of slaughterhouses. The wholesale elimination of private slaughter-houses comes about only when a local authority contemplates building a new abattoir. I could give the Minister actual chapter and verse where the local authorities have had to face this position. When I say that they have had to pay in compensation sums ranging from £10,000 to £20,000, and even more, I think the Minister will realise that it is a very serious matter. In 1890 there was a certain Act passed which said in effect that all slaughterhouses built before that date would be regarded as registered slaughter-houses. Any slaughter-house built after that date was to be a licensed slaughter-house for which no compensation would be payable. In short, these slaughter-houses were built at the owners' risk and were subject to a yearly licence. The Minister is bringing these licensed slaughterhouses, of which there are a very great many, under this Clause, and local authorities will have to close them if they want to build abattoirs, and pay compensation. He has brought that class of slaughter-house within the scope of compensation. The right hon. Gentleman
    1204
    is interested in the Livestock Industry Act and knows how eager the Government are to get this thing going, and he understands, or he should understand, that the difficulties of local authorities are very serious. The Government are now going to put this extra burden on them and ask them to compensate slaughterhouses which hitherto have not come within the scope of compensation. This is a very serious matter.
    8.4 p.m.
    Mr. Muff: I would remind the House that my hon. Friend the Member for Brightside (Mr. Marshall) is the spokesman for every market and municipal authority north of the Trent, including Birkenhead, and this Committee ought to give very careful attention to the plea which he has put forward. In listening to the Minister of Health, I have not been able to grasp what will really happen under the Clause now under discussion. There is a long history behind this business of the so-called registered slaughterhouse. For many years the municipal authorities have been carrying on a fight, backed by successive Ministers of Health, to see to it that all cattle slaughtered within their authority should not only be slaughtered on hygienic and humane lines, but that the cattle itself should be in such a condition as to be fit for human food. I was hoping that the Minister would be able to announce that the day has gone by when a dead cow, for instance, which has died of some disease, can be transported secretly in order to be prepared for human consumption. Not only dead cattle but live cattle have been brought to some of these slaughterhouses, and because there was no adequate inspection there has been placed upon the market food which was hardly fit for human consumption.
    I would make a further appeal to the Minister of Health to elucidate the position. The hon. Member for Brightside knows what he is talking about here. I believe that there are about 48 municipalities represented on the Northern Markets Association. There were 48 or about that number when I sat upon it, and there have been additions since, including, I believe, the second city of the Empire, Glasgow itself. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give us a little more light and leading on this Clause, so that we may pass it without having at the back of our minds that an injustice is being

    1205
    done not so much to corporations like Birkenhead, but progressive and up-to-date corporations which provide abattoirs in order to guarantee that the people shall have sound meat purveyed and brought to their tables.
    8.7 p.m.
    Mr. Poole: I think that the Minister fails to appreciate that the apprehension felt on this side of the Committee is very real, that the Clause will operate very vitally against the interests of small local authorities. Whereas in the larger local authorities there is a certain centralisation, even under private ownership, of the slaughtering of animals, in the smaller local authorities there are a large number of registered slaughter-houses which have never had any guarantee of continuity of tenure and have always functioned from year to year, relying on the renewal of the licence. Yet this Clause would seem to put them into the same category as other slaughter-houses and make them eligible for the same measure of compensation as is available for other slaughter-houses. I do not think that it is the desire of any hon. Member on this side of the Committee to inflict injustice on anyone engaged in this occupation, but in this Clause it is proposed not only to compensate those occupying the premises, but it places a dual responsibility for compensation to be paid to the owner as well as to the occupier. Some of these premises are fit for no other purpose, and they ought to have been pulled down many years ago. In many cases they function up little back alleys where the animals are taken and slaughtered. It is proposed to attach to property of this type a value which could not have been used for any other purpose, and to enable compensation to be paid to the owner of the property and also to the occupier of the premises.
    Colonel Sandeman Allen: If the slaughter-houses are as bad as all that, what do the progressive municipalities mean by licensing them?
    Mr. Poole: The position is that from time to time authorities do license these places, but hand-in-hand with that also goes the fact that every progressive authority in the country is seizing in these places tons upon tons of bad and diseased meat every half-year or quarter. In my own borough we average 25 tons per quarter of diseased meat which is seized
    1206
    in slaughter-houses in the borough. How much gets through without the food inspector seeing it and finds its way on Sundays on to the dinner table of people who can afford to purchase only cheap meat is a matter which must be left to the assumption of the Committee. My point is that these premises cannot be used for any other purpose. They are suitable to be used only for this purpose. They must come within the by-laws of the local authority, otherwise the local authority would not continue the licence. Those who occupy them know full well that they do so only to the end of the year, when they are at the mercy of the local authority and have no guarantee that they will obtain a renewal of the licence. Yet it is proposed to place them in the same category as those who have had a registered slaughter-house for many years, and they are to rank for compensation. That is causingapprehension on the part of hon. Members on this side of the Committee.
    8.12 p.m.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): I think that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lichfield (Mr. Poole) may be under a little misapprehension as to how this Consolidation Bill arose. It arose from the desirability and necessity of consolidating the Statutes from time to time. In a Consolidation Bill the very minimum amount of new matter is introduced. That new matter, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bright-side (Mr. Marshall) will confirm, is the subject of very careful examination by the Departmental Committee which is set up for the purpose. The Departmental Committee was set up for this particular purpose by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), and it has considered the matter ever since. On that Committee were not merely members representing all sections of opinion in the House, but also representatives of all associations of local authorities, and, I would inform the hon. Member for Brightside, that all the four associations of local authorities were, in fact, on the Committee which framed and drafted this Clause. With all respect to the market authorities, for which the hon. Gentleman has so great a knowledge, nothing is being done against the interests either of local authorities or market authorities in this Clause, in so far as it was drafted by a Committee set up by

    1207
    the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield, and which had upon it representatives of all local authorities. Therefore, I think that there is a prima facie case in favour of this Clause being inserted.
    As for the fears expressed by hon. Members, notably the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff), that this was making more difficult the changeover from privately-owned to municipally-owned slaughterhouses, if that was so, I do not think the associations of local authorities would have agreed to it. This provision has been sought by many progressive corporations in private Acts, and it does not make the position any more difficult. Under this Clause compensation can properly be asked for and paid, but only paid if it is decided that it is just. It is a Clause which has had very long and careful examination both by the Departmental Committee, and by the Joint Committee which thereafter examined it and called 22 witnesses. I hope that after this explanation the Committee will see fit to let us have the Clause.
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. Marshall: I do not want to go on with the discussion, but I am not satisfied with the Minister's explanation. I do not think that he has appreciated the burden which is being cast on local authorities by this Clause. I can appreciate the desire of the Department for uni-

    Division No. 296.]

    AYES.

    [8.16 p.m.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammelsmith, S.)

    Foot, D. M.

    Agnew, Lieul.-Comdr. P. G.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

    Furness, S. N.

    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Cox, H. B. Trevor

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Aska, Sir R. W.

    Craven-Ellis, W.

    Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

    Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Gower, Sir R. V.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Davies, C. (Montgomery)

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Beit, Sir A. L.

    De Chair, S. S.

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Birchall, Sir J. D.

    Denville, Alfred

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Bossom, A. C.

    Dixon, Capt. Rt. Hon. H.

    Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

    Bower, Comdr. R. T.

    Dodd, J. S.

    Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

    Brats, Sir W.

    Doland, G. F.

    Hambro, A. V.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

    Drewe, C.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Bull, B. B.

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Harbord, A.

    Butcher, H. W.

    Eckersley P. T.

    Harvey, Sir G.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Edmondson, Major Sir J.

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Channon, H.

    Ellis, Sir G.

    Heilgers, Captain F. F A.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Emery, J. F.

    Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

    Christie, J. A.

    Entwistle, Sir C. F.

    Hepworth, J.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Erskine-Hill, A. G.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

    Cclfox, Major W. P.

    Everard, W. L.

    Higgs, W. F.

    Colville, Rt. Hon. John

    Fildes, Sir H.

    Holdsworth, H.

    Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

    Fleming, E. L.

    Holmes, J. S.

    formity as far as the classification of slaughterhouses is concerned. They are bringing them under one classification as licensed slaughterhouses, but behind that they are bringing into the area of compensation a very great many slaughterhouses which hitherto have not been in that category. From that point of view the Minister of Health is doing an injury to the ideal that he has in sight, namely, to establish reasonable slaughterhouses all over the country.
    8.16 p.m.
    Mr. Elliot: May I call the attention of the hon. Member to Clause 57 (7), which we have just passed, which makes it clear that
    "a licence under this Section shall remain in force for such period not exceeding 13 months as may be fixed by the local authority, but may from time to time be renewed by them for a period not exceeding 13 months at any one time."
    Therefore, the effect is to tighten the law by making all licences annual and not renewable unless the local authorities are satisfied.
    Mr. Marshall: That may be so, but there is a Clause which prevents the local authority from closing them if they have been used as slaughterhouses.
    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 181; Noes, 115.

    Hopkinson, A.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

    Selley, H. R.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Moreing, A. C.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

    Hunloke, H. P.

    Morgan, R. H.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

    Hunter, T.

    Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Hutchinson, G. C.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

    Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

    Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Munro, P.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

    Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

    Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Owen, Major G

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

    Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Kimball, L.

    Peters, Dr. S. J.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Petherick, M.

    Thorneycroft, G. E. P.

    Latham, Sir P.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M

    Turton, R. H.

    Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Leech, Sir J. W.

    Ramsden, Sir E.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

    Lewis, O.

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Wayland, Sir W. A.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Wells, Sir Sydney

    Lindsay, K. M.

    Remer, J. R.

    White, H. Graham

    Lloyd, G. W.

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Wise, A. R.

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Withers, Sir J. J.

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbrldge)

    Wragg, H.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

    Rowlands, G.

    Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.

    Macnamara, Major J. R. J.

    Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

    Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Salt, E. W.

    Captain Dugdale and Major

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Samuel, M. R. A.

    Harvie Watt.

    Markham, S. F.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Noel-Baker, P. J.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Hall, J. H. (Whltechapel)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Hardie, Agnes

    Paling, W.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Parker, J.

    Barr, J.

    Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

    Parkinson, J. A.

    Batey, J.

    Hayday, A.

    Pearson, A.

    Benson, G.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Broad, F. A.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Poole, C. C.

    Bromfield, W.

    Hills, A. (Pontefraet)

    Pritt, D. N.

    Brown, C. (Mansfield)

    Hollins, A.

    Ridley, G.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Jagger, J.

    Riley, B.

    Buchanan, G.

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Ritson, J.

    Burke, W. A.

    Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    Cape, T.

    John, W,

    Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Sexton. T. M.

    Chater, D.

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Silkin, L.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Simpson, F. B.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Cove, W. G.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Kirby, B. V.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Daggar, G.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Stephen, C.

    Dalton, H.

    Lathan, G.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ghl'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Lawson, J. J.

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Dobbie, W.

    Leach, W.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, W.

    Ede, J. C.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Thurtle, E.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Logan, D. G.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Tomlinson, G.

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    McGovern, J.

    Viant, S. P.

    Gallacher, W.

    Marklew, E.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Gardner. B. W.

    Marshall, F.

    Walker, J.

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Mathers, G.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Gibson, R. (Greenock)

    Maxton, J.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Milner, Major J.

    Westwood, J.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Montague, F.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Muff, G.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Griffiths. J. (Llanelly)

    Nathan, Colonel H. L.

    Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

    Naylor, T. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Adamson.

    Clause 62 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 63.—(Saving for Port of London Authority and Mersey Docks and Harbour Board.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    8.26 p.m.
    Mr. Kelly: I should like the Minister to explain why the Port of London Authority and the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board should be exempted from the provisions of the Bill. If they are not to be subject to inspection by the municipal authorities may we know who is to inspect

    1211
    these two places under the Diseases of Animals Acts? I think it is about time that bodies which receive powers and charters should come under the inspection of municipal authorities when it is a case of seeing that food and meat are sent out in a condition fit for human consumption. There are too many of these bodies outside the regulations of municipal authorities, and it is not good that they should be in this privileged position. It has been the practice to hear representatives of certain companies say that they do not speak for their constituency but for the particular undertaking in which they are financially interested. I hope that day has gone, and I hope that bodies like the Port of London Authority and the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board will be placed directly under the control of the municipal authority.
    8.28 p.m.
    Colonel Sandeman Allen: I hasten to say before addresing myself to this Clause that I have no financial interest whatever in the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board or in the Port of London Authority. I am interested in this matter as one of the representatives of Birkenhead, which has a landing for cattle coming from Ireland. The inspectors of the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture are thick upon the ground. The amount of inspection which the cattle undergo is tremendous, and the inspectors sometimes are not able to agree as to the age of the animal or its condition. There is no danger whatever of cattle coming in which are unfit for human consumption, the inspection is so considerable. Obviously, the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) is not aware of the conditions. There is no danger whatever as every precaution which can he taken is taken by the Government Departments.
    8.29 p.m.
    Mr. Duncan: I happen to be a member of the Joint Select Committee which included the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Richards) and the hon. Member for Clay Cross (Mr. Ridley) who, I am sorry, are not here to explain to hon. Members opposite the real position. As the Bill was before the Joint Select Committee the Port of London Authority was not included, and it was at my suggestion that it was included in the Bill. The reasons for it are these. We asked the question
    1212
    which the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) has asked—why the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board should require special permission to be outside the control of the local authorities, and it is in the evidence given on the second day that hon. Members will find the reason. Mr. Horner appeared for the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and it was his evidence which convinced the Joint Select Committee, including the hon. Members opposite, that it was justified. Perhaps I may be allowed to read the evidence as it will completely satisfy the hon. Member for Rochdale:
    "The Birkenhead Corporation Act has a specific exemption in favour of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, and so far as bylaws are concerned, the Birkenhead Corporation I do not think have ever sought to enforce by-laws in their borough with reference to slaughter-houses, and the Wallasey bylaws contain a specific exemption for the Merseyside Board. The Merseyside Board appreciate that that is not the reason why they should continue to be exempted but they would like me to point out to you that whereas they are not at present subject to the licensing provisions or the by-law provisions in Birkenhead or Wallasey, they are, nevertheless, subject to very stringent control by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. The premises at which cattle are landed in the port of Liverpool comprise what is known as the Mersey Cattle Wharf. This consists of one or more landing stages, which are connected to very extensive lairages, and in connection with these lairages the board have a number of slaughter-houses and knackers' yards. By orders made by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries under the Diseases of Animals Acts this wharf has been appointed a wharf for the landing of foreign animals. It has also been appointed an approved landing place for the Canadian cattle by an order of the Ministry in 1933, and it has also been appointed an approved landing place for the importation of animals from Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. That means that these premises can only be carried on in accordance with the requirements of these orders, and I think I am right in saying that the requirements of these orders covers all the points in the bylaws which the local authorities would make and, in fact, they cover additional points as well. That really deals more with live animals, but so far as slaughter-houses are concerned the board must comply with the requirements of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. If they do not the Ministry can withhold their approval for these premises to be used under this Act. So that so far as the supervision and control is concerned the board submit that they are under possibly more stringent supervision than they would be if they were under the local authority. So far as the local authority is concerned the medical officers of health of both local authorities and their meat and sanitary inspectors have constant access to the premises so that

    1213
    they can see that the requirements of the Public Health Meat Regulation, 1924, and the Slaughter of Animals Act, 1933, are complied with. So that in effect both local authorities have access to these premises. The board's contention is that if the local authorities here are to have power to license these premises and to make by-laws relating to the premises you will get an undesirable overlapping of jurisdiction."
    That is the evidence on which the Joint Select Committee were convinced that as far as the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board was concerned they had proved their case and that no alteration of the present law, which has worked with great success for many years, was desirable. I will now quote my own remarks on that occasion:
    "The witness seems to have made such an extremely good case out, not only for the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, but in regard to every other port, that it strikes me that we might have somebody from the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries to find out whether the saving with regard to the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board might not be carried in general terms to all ports."
    On another day, we had further information which showed that only in Liverpool and London was there any considerable amount of landings of cattle from foreign countries and slaughtering, and on those grounds it was considered desirable to include the Port of London Authority. For these reasons, I think this Clause is justified.
    8.37 p.m.
    Mr. Elliot: I think the Debate on this Clause proves the merits of the procedure that was adopted with regard to this Bill. The procedure of examination before the Select Committee, where a full discussion could take place, and hon. Members of all parties, including the hon. Member for Clay Cross (Mr. Ridley) and the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Richards) could take part—a procedure which has been explained by my hon. Friend the Member for North Kensington (Mr. Duncan)—amply supports the case for these exemptions. My hon. Friend explained to the House what the saving is, and why that saving, after very full consideration, was incorporated in the Clause.
    8.38 p.m.
    Mr. Poole: Are we to understand that the Port of London Authority made no application for the exemption which is given in the Bill? We accept the explanation as far as the Mersey Docks and
    1214
    Harbour Board are concerned, but why has it been given to the Port of London Authority? If the Port of London Authority desired these powers and thought that the lack of an exemption would cause any hardship, we know that they would be the first authority to make an application. It seems to me that the exemption is being foisted on to an authority which has never asked for it.
    Mr. Elliot: I am advised that both bodies were represented before the Select Committee, and satisfied the Committee.
    8.39 p.m.
    Mr. Kelly: It seems to me that the hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Duncan), having discovered that the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board were being given this exemption, did not like the Lancashire and Cheshire people to have it without the Port of London Authority also having it. Surely, it is time that, instead of this duplication of examination, we should have one method of examination for all cattle, whether it is landed at the ports and slaughtered there, or whether it is slaughtered in other places in the country. In this matter, the closest investigation is required. From the little responsibility which I have had in regard to cattle in different parts of the country, I know that it is often the case that an animal which before slaughtering no one would have dreamed of suggesting was unfit, has been found, after slaughtering, to be such that the authority would not allow it to be used for human consumption.
    I think that instead of there being this duplication of inspection and investigation, the local authorities should be responsible to us and to the people in their areas for seeing that there is the utmost purity in food. I am sorry that a London Member should have followed the bad old practice of getting certain authorities exempted in this way and that he should have brought the Port of London Authority into it. I hope that we shall soon come to an end of that sort of thing. In the past railways and other bodies have claimed exemptions from all sorts of things in order that they might do as they liked without having any regard for the local authorities. I feel that this exemption ought not to be given at this time, despite the constitution of the Select Committee.
    8.41 p.m.
    Mr. Duncan: In my opinion, the strongest point which came out in the evidence was that by leaving the Bill as it now is, there will be an avoidance of duplication. If the local authorities were given jurisdiction, there would be concurrent and overlapping jurisdiction. As a London Member, I do not want to have that, in the interests of efficiency in local administration.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Clauses 64 to 100 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 101.—(Repeals and construction of references.)
    8.42 p.m.
    Mr. Bernays: I beg to move, in page 78, line 42, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) In so far as any provision in an order or regulation made under any enactment repealed by this Act could have been made under a corresponding enactment in this Act, or, in the case of a provision in a Milk and Dairies Order, under an enactment in this Act relating to Milk and Dairies Regulations, it shall not be invalidated by this repeal, but shall have effect as if it had been made under that corresponding, or other, enactment in this Act, and may be amended, varied, revoked or enforced accordingly, and any person who is guilty of a contravention of, or non-compliance with, any such provision shall be guilty of an offence under this Act."
    This Amendment, and the next two Amendments on the Order Paper, are little more than drafting Amendments. The Clause which they seek to amend is the Repeal Clause of the Bill, and it contains the usual transitional provisions which keep alive Regulations, Orders and the like, made under preceding Acts, pending the making of fresh ones under this Bill, when it becomes an Act. The effect of the three Amendments is to make it clearer than at present, first, that the existing Milk and Dairies Order will be kept alive, and secondly, that the usual power of amending and revoking these Regulations, Orders and the like is maintained. The first Amendment also provides, as a transitional measure, that the penalties laid down by the Bill in Clause 79 will apply to breaches of existing Orders and Regulations. I hope that with that explanation, the House will accept the Amendments.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 79, line 3, leave out "order, bylaw or regulation," and insert "or bylaw."
    In line 14, at end, insert "and may be amended, carried, revoked or enforced accordingly."—[Mr. Bernays.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clauses 102 and 103 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    First, Second and Third Schedules agreed to.

  FOURTH SCHEDULE.
  8.44 P.m.
  Mr. Bernays: I beg to move, in page 87, line 9, column 3, at the end, to insert "outside London."
  This Amendment is simply to correct a printing error, the Amendment accepted in another place having been inserted in the wrong line.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made:
  In page 87, line 11, column 3, leave out "outside London."
  In column 3, leave out lines 27 to 29, and insert "The whole Act."
  In page 88, column 3, leave out line 26, and insert "Section six (except Subsections (2) and (7); Sections twelve, twenty, and twenty-three;".—[Mr. Bernays.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Fourth Schedule to the Bill."
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. Kelly: I notice that reference is made here to Northern Ireland and to another important place, namely, the Isle of Man. I wish to ask whether consultation has taken place with the representatives of Northern Ireland and of the Isle of Man and whether they have agreed with the Home Office on this Measure as it is now presented to us. If they have not been consulted, or if they have not agreed, I wish to know why this Measure is being forced upon them. I hope that greater regard will be paid to the Island in connection with these matters in the future, than seems to have been paid to it up to the present.
  Mr. Bernays: The hon. Member will, I am sure, be delighted to know that it has been arranged that there will be full consultation.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  DIVORCE AND NULLITY OF MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords].
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  DIVORCE AND NULLITY OF MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords].

    CLAUSE I.—(Additional grounds of divorce.)
    8.47 P.m.
    Mr. Westwood: I beg to move, in page I, to leave out line 15.
    This Amendment seeks to delete from the list of additional grounds for divorce provided for in the Bill the ground of incurable insanity. The other grounds for divorce provided for in the Bill all arise from causes over which one or other of the parties to the marriage had control or could have avoided. Insanity is a disease. Where other diseases attack the human frame, it attacks the mind and it is something over which no one has any control. It may even be the case that the insanity of a wife or husband has been caused by the cruelty or by some other action of the other party to the marriage. Thus, under the proposal in this Bill, it would be possible for a married person who had driven his or her partner insane, to make that a ground for seeking divorce. On principle, I cannot agree to that proposition. There are arguments in favour of the other additional grounds for divorce proposed in the Bill, and for breaking a marriage bond which has not been faithfully kept by both parties, but those arguments do not apply to insanity. In the Bill we have a definition of incurable insanity. A person who has been for a period of five years continuously under care and treatment as an insane person is to be held to be "incurably insane."
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Captain Bourne): I should point out to the hon. Member that there are subsequent Amendments on the Paper dealing with this point. I do not know whether the House would regard it as convenient to have a general discussion now on the question of insanity, on the understanding that in that case hon. Members who have put down other Amendments on the subject would formally move their Amendments in order to take the decision of the House upon them, or whether the House would prefer to discuss each Amendment in turn. In that case we cannot have on this Amendment a discussion covering points which will be raised in subsequent Amendments. I am in the hands of the House.
    Mr. Westwood: I think it would be advisable to have a general discussion now as there are other Amendments on the Paper dealing with similar point.
    Mr. Poole: May I point out that if that procedure be adopted it will place some of us at a definite disadvantage. We may desire to oppose this Amendment and to support later Amendments. A Member could hardly make a speech supporting one Amendment and opposing another in the same discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] At least, he would have to be a political acrobat to do so.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: As objection is taken to a general discussion, we must confine the present discussion to the Amendment which is before the House, and we cannot consider the subsequent Amendments until we reach them.
    Mr. Westwood: I accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, although I think it would have been of advantage to have had a general discussion covering the whole subject. I was about to point out that there are difficulties now in the minds of many medical experts on the question of insanity being incurable. I have here an extract from the "Edinburgh Evening News" of 24th June which describes the case of a husband whose wife had been for seven years in a mental home. He regarded her as hopelessly incurable and contemplated divorce proceedings under the new Matrimonial Causes Act, but he is now told that his wife shows every sign of making a recovery as a result of new knowledge which has been brought to light by medical science. I contend that it would be wrong in a Bill of this kind to define as incurably insane a person who has been under treatment continuously for five years, when it is admitted by medical science that there is the possibility of a cure even after the patient has been seven years in a mental institution. As I say, where one of the two parties to a marriage breaks the bond, through causes over which they have control, it should be competent for the courts to grant a divorce, but where the cause alleged is one like insanity over which the person concerned has no control and where one party may actually have driven the other party insane, it would be wrong to incorporate it in a Bill of this kind as a ground for divorce. This matter, I know, was argued out in Committee upstairs.

    1219
    I was not present at those proceedings, but I feel that I could not conscientiously allow incurable insanity to be included in the grounds for divorce, without lodging my protest and if necessary carrying it to a Division.
    8.55 p.m.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I expressed my views on this subject very fully in the Committee upstairs, and I do not propose to go over all the arguments on this occasion. I fully agree with what has been said by the Mover of the Amendment. We are dealing here with something which is different from the other grounds for divorce. There are very few cases to-day, I believe, in which the experts who have to do with mental disease would say there is such a thing as incurable insanity, where there is not the slightest chance of the patient recovering, and because there is that doubt we are dealing with a ground for divorce, not on facts, but on reasonings, suggestions and ideas.
    I believe that if this Bill becomes law without this Amendment, we shall be giving to a great many people who are in a state of nervous breakdown, or even who are patients in mental hospitals, a tremendous amount of anxiety, and that we shall cause such people, from the very moment when a nervous or mental disease may come over them, the fear that their husband or their wife, as the case may be, may be able to obtain a divorce from them, when all the time they are suffering from a disease that can be cured and that may be cured. They will feel that they have not a chance of putting their case, as they will be in an institution, and that they will be divorced as incurably insane but yet may come out later into the world. It may be that in the case of a wife, her husband may be a wage earner who has married again and got a new home, and the wife, who was said to be incurably insane and has proved curable, comes out sane into the world again, with not a single penny, with no widow's pension, with no unemployment allowance, with absolutely nothing, and she will come out of an institution for the insane only to have to go into the poor house.
    It is a very grave matter, and a mis take such as that would have appalling
    1220
    consequences. If it was a thing that could be proved, if there was something in the Bill to safeguard the proving of incurable insanity, much more could be said on its behalf, but if these words remain in the Bill, it is possible that we may have in Scotland case after case where, on the mere presumption that the case will not be cured, divorce will be granted. I wonder whether the husband of a wife who has been certified as insane and placed in an institution, when it comes to her having been treated there for four years, will be very anxious to see that she gets a full chance of coming out before the five years have elapsed. I wonder whether there will be the same anxiety, the same help for the mental patient, as might otherwise be the case, and whether, when the five years period comes, divorce may not take place simply because the anxiety has been enough to have retarded recovery.
    I have in my possession letters that have been sent to me on this subject, and I have discussed the matter with people who already, because this matter is being discussed, are, I am told, having their recovery retarded. I have here a letter from somebody who explains that her daughter, the mother of a young family, is now in an institution, but she reads the paper and knows what is going on. She has read about this Bill, and already, when her mother goes to see her, she expresses anxiety over and over again that if she is not better, her husband may divorce her. She feels that she must be better by such and such a period, and I am asked in this letter whether I can do nothing to safeguard the position of people like her, who feel that because definite time limit is put in the Bill, they may not recover sufficiently soon and thus become liable to be divorced.
    I would like hon. Members to consider well the dangers of this situation. We have something far worse in this Scottish Bill than was introduced into the English Bill, and I wonder how those who drafted this Bill drafted it in this manner. There is in Clause 1 no definition of what "incurably insane" means. The definition is tucked away elsewhere, and people who have looked at the Bill and written to me on the subject, asking me to oppose the Bill, feel that the insertion only of the words "incurably insane" rather than a definition of incurable insanity is a very dangerous thing. I

    1221
    would ask the promoters of the Bill whether they will tell us why, when the Bill was framed, these words only were put in, and why we were not given in the Clause the full definition of "incurably insane." A definition is given about cruelty and other things, and it is given in the English Bill, but it is not given in this Clause, and many people consider that that makes it unsafe. In Clause 6 there is a definition, but nobody would describe it as a definite definition of "incurably insane"; and it is because of the anxieties that will be caused to married people in institutions that I hope the Amendment will be accepted.
    I would remind hon. Members that cures have taken place in cases where, only a few years ago, it was thought that such a type of illness was incurable. Let us remember that last year in Scotland 27 married people who had been in institutions for more than five years came out as cured, and of those 27 people there were 22 who came out whose husband or wife was still alive. On the Committee stage my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate pointed out that 13 of those 22 were between the ages of 5o and 82, and he suggested that people over 50 were not likely to sue for a divorce, because, he thought, divorces were sued for because people wished to marry again, and that those over 50 would not wish to do so. In view of what has happened in England, where they look at it from another point of view, I hope the Lord Advocate, when he replies, will let us know whether in England it is not the case that the average age has been 80. I think the case put before us by the Lord Advocate, that we have only to consider that we were to protect nine or ten, taking the average of the 27 last year, does not stand after that.
    In Scotland last year 22 married people who had been over five years in an institution came out, and I believe that if the Bill were passed without this Amendment, grievous harm would be caused. I do not believe that in Scotland there is any wish for this particular ground for divorce. I have received quantities of letters since I spoke on the Committee stage and only one was in favour of it. The writer of that letter was in favour of divorce for many other things besides this. I ask hon. Members
    1222
    to consider well whether their correspondence from their constituencies and their visits to Scotland have convinced them that the people of Scotland are asking for this. Have they found that this is an urgent necessity? If it is not an urgent necessity, why should not Scotland wait until the experiment that is being made in England has been tried out? Let us see whether it brings the best results. In the meanwhile, I ask support for this Amendment because I believe it is desperately wanted by the people of Scotland.
    9.6 p.m
    Mr. Johnston Mr. Johnston rose——
    Mr. Kirkwood: Does the fact that a Front Bench Member has been called mean that this Debate will finish with his speech?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: This is a Private Member's Bill, and it is the usual courtesy to call a Front bench Member when he rises, but that does not mean that the Debate will finish.
    Mr. Johnston: I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) is a supporter of the point of view which has just been put by the two hon. Members who have spoken, and I am sure he will agree that it is desirable, if we are to have a discussion on this point, that both sides should be put. I am one of those who in the Committee voted with the majority in favour of the retention of "incurably insane" in the Bill. Twenty-four Members of the Committee voted for it and nine against. There must have been some arguments or some reasons which induced the 24 Members to support the idea that "incurably insane" should remain in the Bill. I have considerable agreement with the hon. Lady the Member for Dundee (Miss Horsburgh) when she referred, against your Ruling, Sir, to what might be a proper definition of incurable insanity. When we come to Clause 6 I shall have similar hesitation in regard to the limited safeguards which are in the Bill.
    We are discussing now the simple question whether incurable insanity should remain in the Bill as a cause for divorce. In the earlier stages I was opposed to it, but I think that the balance of argument is in favour of its insertion. There are difficulties which we all recognise.

    1223
    There are family and domestic troubles which we all recognise. There is the point of view put by the hon. Member for Dundee, which nobody can dispute, and there is the argument used by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood), which nobody can dispute either. We have to address ourselves, therefore, to the balance of the burden of difficulties. There are cases where a woman is taken away because of mental illness and the husband is left with a young family. I know of one such case. He has to get a housekeeper, and sometimes the housing conditions and accommodation are such that associations of that kind lead to immorality. It is adultery, and we should be false to our duty here if we designated it in any other way. There are cases—nobody knows how many—in which this is a factor in the situation, and we have to face it. It is no use merely shutting our eyes to the disadvantages which are inherent in the existing situation. What we have to do is to balance up the disadvantages and see where the least possible public harm lies.
    We have been given the figures which show that there are 27 people in Scotland who are discharged on the average in a year after having been five years in an institution. Of those, there are five whose husband or wife, as the case may be, has died. Of the remaining 22, there are some—nobody knows how many—where the question of divorce has never arisen and where the spouse outside awaits with joy and gratitude the return of the afflicted companion. The question of divorce might have arisen in five, ten or a dozen cases, and what we have to face honestly as public representatives is whether the dangers inherent there—and there are dangers—are greater than the dangers and difficulties and miseries which are inherent in the existing situation. For my part, subject to a proper definition and proper safeguards being given as to what is incurable insanity, and subject to precautions being taken to see that no illicit or unfair advantage is taken of this Measure, I think that the balance lies in favour of keeping in the words "incurably insane." If incurable insanity can be properly defined and proper safeguards can be given, I think that there are such a number of people
    1224
    in Scotland who will desire that the spouse outside should be given freedom, that I am prepared to vote, as I did on the Committee stage, for the retention of these words in the Bill.
    9.15 p.m.
    Mr. Kirkwood: I cannot give a silent vote upon this Amendment, the reason being that I opposed this Bill tooth and nail in Committee, supporting the senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh). Like the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) I listened to all the Debates in Committee. Fortunately or unfortunately it does not usually happen that I reason along different lines from the line taken by the right hon. Member, but I do so very definitely to-night. All the authorities we heard—and we heard doctors and lawyers, never mind the ordinary Members—informed us that there is no medical authority in this country which will certify anyone as incurably insane, and it is a terrible responsibility which Members are taking upon themselves in supporting this Bill in face of the opinions of men who have specialised in this particular disease. I call it a disease because I regard insanity as a disease, like smallpox or tuberculosis. At one time those diseases were supposed to be incurable, as cancer is regarded to be now, but man's ingenuity has succeeded in overcoming nearly every disease which afflicts the human frame, and it is just possible that in time we may discover ways and means of alleviating this hellish disease. In spite of the advice of medical practitioners, etc., warning us not to do so, the Committee decided to include incurable insanity in the Bill, but I hope the House will not follow that example, because we have had no evidence that insanity is incurable. Even the right hon. Member for West Stirling who has evidently recanted from the position he took upstairs, did not give the House one little bit of information. We have had no guidance from our Front Bench as to why we should not vote for this Amendment.
    This is a most diabolical Bill, apart from the particular words which we wish to delete. We desire to delete the reference to incurable insanity in order to try to make the Bill as human as we possibly can. I said that I was not going to take any part in the discussion, but it is impossible for me to sit silent, after the fight

    1225
    I put up in Committee, when I find that the Government have now taken the Bill under their wing and know that presently we shall have whole hordes of the supporters of the Government coming in to vote, although they have not been present to hear the arguments. It is another reason why Scotland should get home rule. The English Members, who are not here now, will presently come in, probably in their hundreds, and swamp Scotland again. It is most unjust. I do not want to say any more, because I feel so strongly about the Bill. It is an abominable affair that this Bill should be handed on to Scotland, as it will be, not by the votes of Scottish men and w omen at all. The senior Member for Dundee has stood her ground throughout on this Bill, and I thought she was going to get some support, but from the information which I have been able to glean in speaking to several Members since it was known that the Bill was to come on to-night it has been arranged for the supporters of the Government to come in to vote the Scottish Members down. I hope that the Scottish Members will rally to us, because they can take it from me that they will have to answer to Scotland if this Bill goes through.
    9.20 p.m.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: This is an occasion on which each of us has to consult his own conscience and to act upon his experience of life and his observations during such years as he has lived. The issue has nothing to do with party affiliations at all. While I fully appreciate the cases brought forward by the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment, my experience seems to accord rather with the remarks made by the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) and I feel that the greater harm would be done to the person who is left with an insane partner. Like the right hon. Gentleman I know a case in which a man has been left with a family, his wife having been sent to a home. She is, so far as we can see, incurably insane, and he has been put into an insufferable position.
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: So far as w ho can see?
    Mr. Stewart: So far as one can gather from such reports as are given by the medical authorities. I would point out that this Clause does not compel anything to be done. It will only operate if there
    1226
    is a petition for divorce by the other partner to the marriage bond, and it will surely be an exceptional case if the other partner takes action merely because the spouse is insane. There will probably be a good many other reasons.
    Mr. Logan: A petition on this ground alone will be quite sufficient.
    Mr. Stewart: Yes, but I cannot imagine a man making it the only ground for taking action. I think he would have other reasons as well, and I think we must take into account the wider considerations which will affect a man's judgment and desires in a case like this. I feel that if we were to deny to a man or woman this way out of an intolerable position we should not be acting fairly or justly. I recognise that there are these 22 possible cases, but I am sure that, if we could get at the figures, there would be many times that number of cases on the other side.
    Mr. Kirkwood: The hon. Member, who was on the Committee, will recall that the onus of proof has been put upon the person who is in the institution. The onus of proving that he or she is not incurably insane, that burden is put upon an individual who is one of the most helpless persons in society.
    Mr. Stewart: I do not deny that, but I invite the hon. Member to consider the other partner to the marriage bond. Our consideration should be for him equally with the other person. My greater sympathies are for him. I feel that I should be acting in accordance with my duty, as I see it, by supporting this Clause.
    9.26 p.m.
    Mr. Poole: I am sure that every one will approach the Bill and the Amendment with a good deal of sympathy with both points of view that have been expressed. The speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) is one of which we must all take notice. She stated a very definite case for supporting the Amendment. I do not yield to any one in my respect for the sanctity of marriage, but I feel that I must oppose the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) pictured the case of those who found themselves in an institution probably because of the cruelty of their partner, who would be free to obtain a divorce though he had been responsible for the

    1227
    other partner finding her way into the institution. For many years I served on a mental hospital board and on a visiting committee in lunacy and I have seen at first hand many cases who find their way into these institutions. There is another side to the picture that has been painted. What is the position of a wife whose husband by his own personal abuse, perhaps by excessive drinking, has brought himself into the position of becoming incurably insane? Do you think that the House is entitled to tie a woman, perhaps with a young family, to such a husband? That is a side of the picture that occurs very often in real life. The onus in the Clause is that a person shall be found to be incurably insane. I must dissociate myself from the remark of the last speaker that the onus will be upon the person who is in the institution——
    Mr. Kirkwood: That is the Bill.
    Mr. Poole: I do not accept that for a moment. The onus will surely be upon the pursuer. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If that is the position, I accept it, but I do not see how a person who is in an institution can have any means of proving that he is not insane. There are many people in institutions who claim that they are not insane and that everyone else is. But, if that is the onus in the Bill, I shall certainly support the Amendment. I was speaking under a misapprehension. If the onus is on the person in the institution, it is an intolerable position and one to which I will not subscribe. I will not pursue my remarks any further.
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I think the whole House has a great deal of sympathy with the aspect of the case put so admirably by the hon. Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) and others. At the same time, I think the House will equally consider the hardships that have been explained by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston). When passing Bills in this House we often find ourselves in the position of having to inflict hardship on someone and we have to weigh up what is best on balance. The figures that have been given show clearly to my mind that, when you have over 2,000 people who have been in asylums for over five years and continue to be insane, you are dealing with a substantial body and, when you
    1228
    compare that with the figures that have been agreed to in the Debate, of some 27 altogether, reduced to 22, who are left married when they go out of the asylum, one is dealing with two very distinct problems. On balance, this principle of divorce for incurable insanity should be established. It has already been agreed upon in the English Bill. In the Scottish Standing Committee the Division showed that Scottish opinion was in favour of the Bill, and it is the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) who will have to answer for Scotland and no one else if the recommendations of the Committee are not followed. The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) pointed out that cruelty itself, which was the ground of divorce, might be the cause of the insanity, and there is great force in what he says, but there is a later Amendment which fully covers that point.
    Mr. Westwood: Is it possible for the hon. Member to refer to that, when I obeyed your Ruling, Sir?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I thought the hon. Member appeared to be just touching on the subject.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I thought I was entitled to do so, seeing that subsequent to your Ruling the hon. Member raised the point that I was endeavouring to answer. I will not proceed further in case I should be acting against the Ruling. The hon: Lady chaffed me about the average age of those who have managed to get divorce in England, and I admit that it is high, but those people have got old waiting for this Act to pass, and I think she will find, when it comes into operation, that the average age is lower.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Do not the statistics show that of people who were cured after five years, there were in Scotland ten under and 13 over 50?
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I think that is so, but the hon. Lady is touching on a totally different point. The point is the average age of those who sought divorce in England. There are, of course, a great many older people who come out——
    Miss Horsbrugh: Who would seek divorce?
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I agree with what my right hon. Friend said, though it appears to be negatived by the effect of the

    1229
    English Act, that the whole of those old people would not naturally seek divorce. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs said that it would not be possible to prove incurable insanity and, I think against your Ruling, did deal with the question of presumption. I will not deal with that question at this time beyond saying that I would agree with what the hon. Member said and that it is for that reason that I support the presumptive rule which is laid down in a later Clause. I want to persuade the House, if I can, that we are dealing here with a very real problem. In many poor households you have the sort of situation to which an hon. Member referred, the man or the woman being in the asylum. I can conceive of no greater cause for divorce and of no greater inability to fulfil what in Scotland we call the marriage contract, than insanity, which leaves the spouse who is left more effectually alone, and still not able to remedy it, than by death itself.
    9.38 p.m.
    Mr. Barr: I rise to give my support to the Bill, as against the Amendment. I recognise the earnestness and the depth of conviction of those who take the opposite view to myself; I have dealt for so long and so closely with this matter that I can appreciate very much their point of view. I appreciate also the earnestness and the deep conviction of my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood). If he can make an argument for Scottish Home Rule out of this, I will certainly not object to that part of his speech. I think he made one mistake when he spoke as though the Government had taken this Measure under their aegis, and would come in to defeat Scottish Members. I understand that the Bill remains a private Member's Bill and that there is to be a free vote.
    Reference has been made to the opinions of medical practitioners, alienists and the like. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs, I would point out that those opinions were by no means all on the one side. The name of Dr. Henderson has often been mentioned in these Debates. He is an eminent medical man in Edinburgh. No sooner had he given his opinion in favour of insanity being ruled out as a ground of divorce, then equally eminent men plunged into the controversy on the other side. We can take it that
    1230
    there is a very large volume of medical opinion in favour of including insanity as a ground of divorce. The point has been brought forward here to-night that the growing opinion of medical men is that even this disease may prove to be curable. I support that point very strongly. I would recall that there are very few meetings of the British Medical Association year by year but that indication is made that some disease hitherto regarded as incurable has been found to be curable. If it should prove that insanity is curable, and that there is not such a thing as incurable insanity there will be no divorce, because none——
    Mr. Westwood: No, if the cure takes place after six or seven years, people can be divorced because the cure will not have taken place within five years.
    Mr. Barr: I am in a difficulty because of Clause 6 to which I am not able to refer. I do not go further, observing your Ruling entirely, than to say that provision is made in the Bill for the freest expression of opinion in regard to whether there should be such divorce, and my point, which my hon. Friend did not appreciate, was that it is a complete argument that divorce should not take place, because there might be curability. That is the only point I make at this time. I will only say—this is another point in response to what fell from my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Mr. Poole)—that we are not dealing just now with grounds of presumption, but the whole point is that a certain presumption will follow from the fact that people have been five years under continual care, but against that presumption the Bill will later provide that there may be the fullest argument to combat that presumption, and for the whole question to be treated upon its merits.
    Mr. Mathers: On a point of Order. Because of the observations that my hon. Friend is making, will you allow him to indicate where in the Bill he finds ground for the statement which he has just made?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think it would be better to leave the definition until we come to the Clause in question and to the Amendment to leave out the appropriate Sub-section dealing in ith this matter. It is desirable to have a full Debate when the matter arises in that way.
    Mr. Barr: I think I was carefully refraining from being definite on that matter. Most of us are aware of what is provided in Clause 6, but I refrain from condescending upon that Clause. An instance was given of a case of insanity for seven years, ending in discharge, and I gave an instance myself in the Committee of a person who had been in an institution in the West of Scotland for 25 years and who was allowed to go home. The governor of the mental hospital thought he could risk it. He thought he would allow her to go home, and she never returned. Those individual cases are extremely rare, and should not prevent us considering the other matters to which I will refer before I have done. This matter has already been examined with very great care. We had a discussion at great length on the English Bill, and the matter has been very fully discussed in the Scottish Grand Committee. The Senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) has asked us to show that there is any wish in Scotland for the Bill, and I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs pointed out that it is we who have to answer for Scotland.
    I will take one or two indications of the opinion of Scotland. I will take the Church of Scotland itself. It is not the Church to which I belong, but it covers the main membership of the churches in Scotland. On the first occasion, at the Assembly before last, approval was given to the Bill and to the setting up of a committee carefully to investigate the various causes on which divorce could take place, particularly from the point of view of the purpose of marriage having been defeated. I think there were 12 ministers and 10 elders of all shades of opinion on that committee, and the result of it was that they approved of the Bill as it now stands.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Let us get this point clear. I think the hon. Member will agree with me that that committee said in its report that it would not agree to insanity, but that it would agree to incurable insanity. That is the difficulty of definition again.
    Mr. Barr: That exactly confirms what I am saying, because it is incurable insanity that is in the Bill. They were in close touch with us, and particularly with
    1232
    myself and with the promoter of the Measure. They sent us their findings, and all that they did was to put in two Amendments, which were not minor in importance, but were small Amendments, and these were accepted by the promoters and are now in the Bill. One of them was as to the continuous character of the care, and the other provided that voluntary patients were excluded. These small Amendments have been accepted. Otherwise they agreed cordially with the Bill.
    Mr. Westwood: If my hon. Friend is suggesting that the committee were unanimous, may I point out that on page 3 of the report these words occur:
    "While there is a difference of opinion as to the inclusion of insanity as a ground of divorce."
    That does not look as though the committee were unanimous.
    Mr. Barr: I was not saying that they were unanimous; I was giving their final judgment on this particular Measure. The convener of the committee himself, and others who were greatly interested in the Bill, were in the closest touch with us, and on behalf of the committee and knowing the opinion of their Church, they accepted it. I make no suggestion that they were absolutely unanimous; we know that they were not; but we are dealing with the Bill as it now stands, and I say that it has the approval, not only of the committee, but of the Church of Scotland, or at least a very large majority of that Church. In the next place, I would refer to my own Church. At a recent Assembly this very question of insanity was brought forward—[Interruption]. My Church, I say with pride, is as sane as any other Church, and as sane as those who are outside all churches. I want to be perfectly fair. I admit that there are churches in Scotland that are strongly opposed to insanity being a ground for divorce the Free Church of Scotland, for example. I am taking my own Church. This very subject was debated; it was the only subject brought forward; and, by a majority of more than two to one, we resolved to take the Bill as it stands, and continue to include insanity as a ground of divorce.
    There are only two other things that I want to say. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) touched on a very vital point. There are questions of virtue itself, questions of

    1233
    morality, that bring before us the consideration that there may be, and I believe there are, cases in which it is in the interests of pure living and of morality that such relief should be granted in certain cases, and I believe that, balancing the two sides, balancing the clangers, if you like, these considerations will outweigh—at least they do with me, and I believe they will with others—the other disadvantages, inconveniences and even dangers. The other thing I want to say, and I think it was mentioned by the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart), is that this, after all, is not a measure of compulsion. The cases in which it will be taken advantage of will be extremely rare. Even in the case of desertion as a ground of divorce—and that has obtained in Scotland since 1567 or thereabouts—the percentage of divorces to marriages in Scotland has always been extremely small. This provision will not be taken advantage of save in very rare cases. It is for the churches themselves, and all who mould the opinion of the country, to engender such feelings, such high ideals of the marriage state, such ideas of honour and virtue and fairness, that a wise use will be made, as I believe it will, of the provision. I think that, in all the interests concerned, insanity—incurable insanity—should be a ground of divorce.
    9.53 P.m.
    Mr. Dingle Foot: I think we shall all agree that, in considering this Amendment, we are dealing with the most serious issue raised by the Bill. I want to give, in as few words as possible, the reasons why I personally do not feel able to support the Amendment. I want to make it quite clear that we are not dealing with, and I am not now considering, the question of the onus of proof. I do not say that I shall necessarily agree with the hon. and learned Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Erskine Hill) when we come to the Clause which deals with the onus of proof. What we are considering now, and under your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, we must confine ourselves to this, is simply the question whether in future in the law of Scotland incurable insanity shall be a ground of divorce. That is the only issue that we are called upon at this moment to decide.
    It is perfectly true that we have not as yet had very much experience of the
    1234
    working of the English Act, but we have had a certain amount of experience of it, and I think I may be one of the very few Members present in the House this evening who have had an opportunity of seeing that Act in operation; and, apart from Clause 6, this Bill, of course, is drawn upon very similar lines. These matters are not dealt with at all lightly in the divorce courts. They are not considered in the same way, or, indeed, in anything like the same time, as ordinary undefended divorce cases, which do not, of course, take very long. In fact, the courts inquire with the most scrupulous care, not only into the present mental health but also into the whole mental history of the respondent. In each case it is provided, as it is to be provided under this Bill, that the respondent shall be represented. Even if this Bill were to go through in its present form——
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: On a point of Order. I think you gave a Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that questions of court procedure, proofs, and the like could not be discussed at this stage, but should be deferred until Clause 6. If that be so, would it be in order for an hon. Member to discuss what the court procedure is in England, and how careful and good it is, when we have not yet arrived at the sage at which we can discuss the court procedure in Scotland?
    Mr. Foot: I am not discussing now the onus of proof in England. I am discussing the way in which these matters are dealt with under similar conditions under the recently passed English law, and I should have thought that that was strictly relevant to this Amendment.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It did not seem to me that the hon. Member was saying anything that was out of order. He was not going into the question, which is raised in Clause 6, of where the onus of proof would lie, but was merely pointing out how cases of this particular character were dealt with in the courts of this country. That appears to me to be strictly relevant to this Amendment.
    Mr. Foot: I was saying that in each case the respondent is represented, and the doctor who is called in order to prove insanity is in each case not only examined by counsel for the petitioner, but is cross-examined, and closely cross-examined,

    1235
    by counsel for the respondent; and it is only when the court is as fully satisfied as it is possible to be—I agree with my hon. Friend opposite that it is not possible to be absolutely certain—that a decree is granted. These things are not dealt with in the English courts, and will not be in the Scottish courts, in any formal spirit.
    I come to a point which I do not think has been brought before the attention of hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies. I do not say that we ought necessarily to follow English legislation. I do not say for one moment that because a Bill of this kind has been passed for England we ought necessarily to pass it for Scotland, but I want to bring to the notice of the House one difficulty, and it seems to me a very serious difficulty, that would be created—at any rate, it would be an anomaly if in future incurable insanity were to be a ground for divorce in England and not in Scotland. Anyone is entitled to go and sue for divorce in England if he can show that he has an English domicile. These people do not need to be natives of England; they can come from any other part of the world. Suppose this Amendment is carried, what is to be the position?
    In the first place, take a case where the wife is insane, and confined in an institution in Scotland for five years or upwards, and the husband wants to get a divorce on grounds of insanity. If he happens to be a wealthy man and it is easy for him to change his permanent residence, to leave Scotland and go to live somewhere in England, as soon as he has got the evidence which would enable him to satisfy the English court that he has changed his domicile that would enable him to get a decree in the English court. The husband who happened to be a poor man—let us say a mill worker, for instance—would not have those advantages. For economic reasons, it would be impossible for him to change his domicile; and therefore he would have to put up with what we all agree is a hardship, whether we think it should be altered or not. Let me take the matter a step further. The wife's domicile is always the domicile of her husband. So we should have the further anomaly that a Scottish husband whose wife was insane and confined in an institution could
    1236
    change his domicile and live in England and get a decree in the English courts; but if it were the husband who was insane and the wife wanted a decree she could not do so, because her domicile would remain that of her husband. If he were confined in an institution in Scotland her domicile would be Scottish.
    The Eon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) gave an example which I am bound to say did not entirely impress me. He read a cutting from a newspaper giving the case of a man whose wife had been in an institution for seven years and the man himself expressed the opinion that he might be eligible for divorce under the new Act, but I do not think that an example like that carries us very much further. [Interruption.] That example might have great force when discussing Clause 6. I do not think it carries us much further on this Amendment.
    Mr. Westwood: May I submit that it did prove that after five years, so far. as this individual was concerned, she was not incurably insane. I was trying to show that it was difficult to prove incurable insanity. Science has discovered so many cures that it is difficult to say that any disease is incurable.
    Mr. Foot: We all appreciate the force of what the hon. Member says. I do not think anybody would deny that there are a certain number of cases where, after five years, or any other period which we choose to put in an Act of Parliament, there will be a recovery. All that we are saying is that in this matter we have to strike a balance between the hardships on one side and the hardships on another. I do not think it has been denied that there are a far larger number of cases where there has been no recovery after five years. The senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) spoke with great force of 20 people who came out after five years. I am much more concerned with the very much larger number who did not come out after five years. We are creating a very great hardship for those young men and women who happen to be married to a husband or wife who is insane. It may be that it cannot be said that they will not recover, but in a great many cases there is an overwhelming probability that they will not

    1237
    recover. They are cut off from the married state, in all probability for many years and it may be for the rest of their lives.
    Mr. Logan: Would the hon. Member say that it would be a ground for rescinding the divorce if the insane person recovered?
    Mr. Foot: There are obvious reasons why the divorce cannot be rescinded. The most serious argument that has been raised, both in the Standing Committee and in the Debate here this evening, was that raised by the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) and the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk, when they spoke of mental disease. I agree that that was a very formidable argument. They say, where there is no question of moral turpitude involved, no question of conduct involved, where the respondent is in no way at fault, should that be a ground for divorce? But can it be seriously contended that there is no real distinction between ordinary physical disease and mental disease? It seems to me, particularly when we are considering the marriage relation, that there is a very real distinction. When you have one partner in a marriage suffering from some form of physical disease, even there there can be some form of companionship between the husband and wife; but when there is mental disease, at any rate in some of the forms it frequently takes, any real form of companionship is impossible. This is the reason why I for one intend to vote against this Amendment when it goes to a Division. There is a provision both in English law and in Scottish law that in certain cases the marriage is not dissolved but the marriage ceremony is set aside, where, on certain grounds, the marriage is shown to be a nullity, where it is found that, whereas, in fact, there has been a ceremony, for one reason or another the marriage is not a marriage in fact. If we take the word "nullity" in a broader sense it applies to what we are considering here, that through something which may be no fault of the respondent but which, in the vast majority of cases, at any rate, is also no fault of the petitioner, these marriages have in fact become null. The marriage tie, the legal bond remains but everything else has gone.
    Mr. Logan: Even if there is issue?
    Mr. Foot: Even if there is issue. At the time you get insanity of the degree required by this Bill everything but the legal bond has gone, and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dumbarton in a very powerful speech, said that he could not take the responsibility of passing a Measure like this and striking possibly at those who might come out after some years in an institution. I cannot take the very much heavier responsibility of keeping within these bonds a very much larger number of people who are suffering, in my opinion, even more considerable hardship.
    10.7 p.m.
    Mr. McGovern: I rise to support the Bill and also to ask that incurable insanity be retained in the Measure. I did not raise my voice in Committee because I wanted to give the Bill every opportunity and facility for getting on to the Statute Book. I hope that, although we have different points of view, we shall all give to each other the credit of acting according to the evidence that has been given both in the Committee and in this House. There is nothing in the Bill that compels any person to apply for divorce. The ground of incurable insanity is a ground that is reasonable. I have heard a great deal of talk about incurable insanity. I go very often to mental institutions in Scotland, and, in spite of all the arguments used here and the evidence from the medical profession, as one goes round those wards the doctor will say, "There is a case that will get steadily worse. The patient is incurable and will ultimately die, in all probability in a violent manner as the result of a seizure of some kind." Experience has taught these medical men to understand that there in the institutions are a large number of patients suffering from a type of insanity which they regard as incurable, no matter what the profession may say when it is theorising and it comes to a point that it has to put its opinions down in concrete form in a document.
    I am often told by people who think they are very religious that divorce should not take place. I am not concerned with the man or woman who does not want divorce. If there is a desire for divorce among the community, you are entitled to pay heed to the demands and desires of the community. There may be other grounds that may crop up

    1239
    from time to time, but we can only move according to enlightened opinion in this country when we see the necessity of certain changes taking place. The senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) raised an argument which I thought was scarcely worthy of her. She said that a man might use this Measure in order to get divorce, but he might have some other reason in the background, meaning that he was tired of his partner. Surely, if he was tired of his partner, that in itself would be sufficient ground for divorce. I suggest that no person should be compelled by law to live with any partner with whom he or she did not desire to live. It was scarcely worthy of the hon. Lady in desiring to tie people together who were tired of each other or had lost any form of affection for one another.
    I have seen people in these institutions, and I am thinking especially of a man who has been 21 years in an asylum. He has got steadily worse. His wife was a very young woman when he went into that asylum. She had a young family, and she has reared it. She knew very shortly after her husband was committed to the asylum that he would never recover. I have seen him at least every two years over a period of 17 years, and he has been getting steadily worse, and to-day he is in such a bad state that he cannot recognise me. A son of these people, 17 years of age, was also taken to the asylum and died within two years. There was a tragedy in that woman's life. It happened when she was in her early twenties, and does anyone suggest that that woman ought from the age of 25, all through her life, when she knew that her partner had been committed to that institution with no prospect of relief, to be tied to that partner? That is an example of the other cases.
    As the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) said, you cannot do complete 100 per cent. justice to all people when you are considering certain Measures which are being passed in this House. I came to the Committee with a completely open mind. I have never given special consideration to the Measure. I have heard the arguments and the speech of the hon. Lady—I think she made a splendid speech from her particular angle—but I think that the evidence, on the other hand, is very much in favour
    1240
    of the point of view that I am expressing here to-night. I discussed the question of this Measure with a man whose wife has been in an asylum for about 13 years. He said: "I would never dream of taking action for divorce. I would be a cad to divorce my wife while she is suffering." The man who takes that point of view is not compelled to divorce his wife. His loyalty and affection can remain. There are many people who will go to the grave cherishing that feeling of affection and companionship of which they have been deprived. I know of cases with which I have come in contact while a member of an old parish council. Many of these have been women with seven, eight or nine young children. The husbands, in order to bring up these children, have had to bring another woman into the house. They have cohabited, and they have had children and have expressed a desire to marry, but have been prevented by the law.
    There are many men who would never desire to desert or divorce their partner, but we have to take account of large numbers of people who might in certain circumstances desire to have their freedom in order to marry again. Medical men in institutions can say that this is a curable case and that that case will not recover. With regard to those people who may be religious, or other people who have qualms as to the passage of this Bill, I would say to them that if they have these scruples nobody is wishing to compel them to divorce their partner; they are free to exercise their religious scruples. If we were compelling them to take action for divorce or we were divorcing them by Act of Parliament, it would be another matter. What I desire to do is to do the best I can for people who are in these unfortunate circumstances, and, as the overwhelming amount of evidence seems to be in favour of the Bill, I shall give it my whole-hearted support in the Division Lobby.
    10.17 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: I am not opposed to proper arrangements being made, under proper conditions,. for anyone who is desirous of divorce or who is entitled to divorce on the ground of insanity, but I am absolutely in favour of the Amendment. I submit that no one is capable of putting forward any real case on this question in a Bill such as this, and in

    1241
    the form in which it is drafted. The right hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Johnston) tells us of a case where the wife is in an asylum, the man is left with a family of small children and he brings in a woman to help, and the housing conditions are such that they become immoral people. When I said this was not the answer he gave me a lecture on what constitutes immorality and adultery. Surely, if the man is left with a small family and he has to bring in a woman to look after them, the solution is not to accuse him of immorality and to present a Bill of this sort, but to improve the housing conditions under which you have condemned him to live.
    When we come to the question of incurable insanity we have to admit that, generally speaking, nobody can lay the blame for insanity on the victim of insanity. It is a mental disease and is treated as such. There are other diseases of a very terrible character. Here we have a mental disease, and what do the promoters of the Bill do? In the first Clause they set down grounds for divorce-desertion, cowardly desertion, brutality, bestiality, and along with cowardice, brutality and bestiality they class one particular disease, insanity. Can hon. Members imagine anyone classing cowardice, brutality and bestiality with rheumatoid arthritis? We have been told of men or women who have suffered from mental disease. I have known cases of rheumatoid arthritis, which has left the victim incapable of doing anything.
    Mr. Boothby: The hon. Member sits in this House as the only representative of the Communist party, and I want to put to him this question. We have always understood that Communists take a rather special view on this particular question. Is the hon. Member now stating the official view of the Communist party of this country on this question?
    Mr. Gallecher: I am speaking as the representative of West Fife. If the hon. Member wants to discuss with me the official policy of the Communist party on this matter I am prepared at any time to meet him. I am saying now that the manner in which this question is being discussed is utterly indefensible. You cannot take any form of disease in association with cowardice, brutality and bestiality. Take paralysis. I know of men, and also women, who are suffering
    1242
    from complete paralysis. Would you associate paralysis with cowardice, brutality and bestiality in any Bill? Surely hon. Members can see that the category is entirely different; you cannot possibly associate them in the same Bill. Even foolish Tories opposite should understand that disease is entirely different from these other causes which are allowed for divorce under the Bill. You can have a Bill providing for divorce on the grounds of desertion, brutality and bestiality, but when it comes to a particular form of disease then it is something separate.
    I put this point of view upstairs in Committee and said that instead of a Bill of this character there should be a separate Bill dealing with illness, either mental or physical. just before we entered on the consideration of this Bill I was talking outside about the effect it would have on a woman with two or three children whom she loved, who had a nice home which she loved, and who was devoted to her husband. Something goes wrong, because a woman can be the subject of very serious pains and agonies. It is said that a woman can suffer more pain in one day than a man can in his lifetime. As a result of the pains and agonies which a mother has to go through, her balance for a bit is upset and she goes into an institution. Month after month passes. On occasions she comes round when she is quite clear in her mind, and the thought is always there—what is going to happen? As a consequence of the continual worry, she is actually driven crazy. This is not a matter that can be dealt with in a Bill of this sort. As I said in the Standing Committee, and as I repeated at the beginning of my speech, I am not against a man or a woman getting a divorce on grounds of insanity; but proper and careful provision should be made, and the subject should be dealt with of itself. It is scandalous to present it in this particular form in this Bill.
    It is quite possible that there are many men and women who would like to be relieved of the burden of a paralysed spouse, or a spouse who was so affected by a certain disease as to threaten with ruin the whole life of, for instance, a young wife of 25, not because the husband was insane, but because of his being completely crippled and useless for life because of some other disease. If one

    1243
    disease is to be dealt with, diseases as a whole should be taken in a special category, quite apart from the other category in this Bill. It is of no use hon. Members saying that they want to legislate and that they have to weigh the balance between one and the other. Surely, they are not going to weigh the balance between someone who has been unfortunate enough to have a mental collapse and someone who has committed bestiality —surely, they do not consider those two things as being in the same category—or someone who has suffered a nervous breakdown, it may be through devotion to housewifery duties, and someone who has committed all kinds of brutalities.
    If hon. Members are going to weigh the balance, let them make the categories clear and easily understandable. Desertion, brutality and bestiality, as grounds for divorce, should be treated in one Bill or section of a Bill. Then, in another section or in a separate Bill—and I would say a separate Bill—various diseases, mental and physical, should be dealt with in a clear and careful manner, and dealt with in such a way that in no circumstances is one particular disease singled out, with the result that worry, as a consequence of that selection, may so affect the patient as to damn him (or her) for all time. I maintain that this Amendment should be supported. The Government should then take the responsibility for setting up a Committee, if necessary, in order to consider how this matter should be dealt with effectively, and how there could be set up the organisation or responsible authority to make a decision affecting the very small, the almost infinitesimal, number of cases that would be concerned in the question of divorce on grounds of insanity or other forms of disease.
    10.29 p.m.
    The Lord Advocate (Mr. T. M. Cooper): I wish to indicate briefly the position of the Government, and to deal with one or two isolated topics which have emerged in the course of the Debate. The Amendment before the House raises a question of social principle upon which the Government have taken no decision. The House will be asked, irrespective of party, to arrive at a conclusion upon that topic without any pressure or any suggestion of any kind. I might explain that
    1244
    as in the Committee upstairs, I am here to give such assistance as I can from a legal standpoint to ensure that if this Bill reaches the Statute Book, it will do so in a workable form, and I have no desire to give any suggestion or lead in regard to any decision which the House may desire to reach on the question of principle.
    Mr. Buchanan: Has not the right hon. and learned Gentleman his own personal view?
    The Lord Advocate: I am afraid that I cannot separate my personality from my official duty on this occasion to state the law.
    Mr. Logan: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us, as a point of law, whether, if divorce is granted on the grounds set out here, and recovery takes place, the divorced person would be justified in going to the court and asking that the divorce should be rescinded?
    The Lord Advocate: I have no hesitation in assuring the hon. Member in the same sense as the junior Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) did. That possibility is not open. A divorce decree cannot be rescinded on such a ground. Once a divorce is granted, the matter is finished.
    Mr. Logan: Though there has been recovery.
    The Lord Advocate: There are two points to which I wish to refer briefly. The senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) mentioned the number of married persons who have been confined in asylums for five years or more and the number who recover after five years' confinement. When the Bill was in Committee great interest was expressed on all sides in these figures and as it was I who was able to obtain the figures for the Committee, may I take this opportunity of repeating them to the House in a very brief form? The figures which I was able to get, show that at any given time, on an average, there are confined in asylums in Scotland 2,400 or 2,500 married persons who have been so confined for at least five years I give round figures because the number varies from year to year. Of that number, approximately 27 recover after five years, but it is necessary to analyse that figure of 27, having regard to the marital conditions

    1245
    and ages of the persons who recover. The number is then reduced to about 22 whose husbands or wives are still alive. If we examine the ages we find that something like 13 are over 50 and six are over 60, so that whatever surmises may be made as to the probabilities or otherwise of persons desiring divorce after a certain age, this, at least, is clear and it is an objective fact which I put before hon. Members, leaving them to draw their own deductions.
    There are, on one side of the picture, 2,500 persons whose partners have been confined in asylums for five years or more. On the other hand the average number of persons to recover after five years' confinement is of the order of a dozen or so. The ratio is about 12 or 15 to 2,500. That is a fact which the House will bear in mind. The only other fact on which I venture to touch as a legal matter is the interesting point brought out by the junior Member for Dundee with regard to the somewhat anomalous position, from a lawyer's point of view, which would arise if insanity were a ground of divorce in England and not a ground of divorce in Scotland. The result, whether we like it or not, would be that there would not only be one law for the rich and one for the poor in that respect, but one law for the man and another for the woman. I have endeavoured, without, I hope, indicating my own view, to place before the House the legal aspect of the matter, and I leave it now to the decision of the House.
    10.35 p.m.
    Mr. Mathers: The Lord Advocate has spoken officially. Although I stand at the opposite Box, I do not speak officially, but I speak here to-night for myself, and, as I understand it, all hon. Members in the House are free to-night to take the decision that their conscience entitles them to take. I want to observe, arising out of what the Lord Advocate has said, that I think it is a pity, when we are dealing with a great social subject like this, that these two Bills which have been before this House recently, the English Bill and this Bill, should have been private Members' Bills and only looked at, considered, and to some extent licked into shape by the Government after they had been before this House. I do not think that the Engilsh Bill was free from flaws, although I think in certain respects
    1246
    it is better than the Bill which we are now discussing, especially in relation to this particular Amendment. On the general issue, I oppose the idea of divorce for illness, although it is mental illness, on the same ground as, I think, anyone would oppose release from the marriage bond because of physical illness, although, as the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has stressed so strongly, there must be, and are, occasions when physical conditions from which one spouse is suffering just as definitely render that spouse incapable of carrying out marital responsibilities as any mental condition and the placing of the individual in a mental institution
    I now come to this Amendment, and my reason, within the ambit of this Bill, for opposing the inclusion in it of a description such as "incurable insanity" is that I object to its being stated in such a bald way without any qualification or indication at this particular point in the Bill of what does actually constitute "incurable insanity." I have in mind also the fact that when we come to the definition Clause, defining the words "incurable insanity," it is something that is left to a presumption, and "incurable insanity" is presumed, under the terms of this Bill, if one of the partners to the marriage has been confined in a mental institution for a period of upwards of five years. There are other considerations placing the responsibility for defence from the charge of incurable insanity upon someone acting for the person declared to be insane, and I think that is putting the onus on the wrong person and dealing with the matter in the wrong way. From that point of view the English Bill is on better lines, and I hope the House will see the desirability of giving effect to the Amendment.
    I want to deal with the figures which the Lord Advocate has given as I understand he gave them to the Committee when it was impossible for me to be present. He mentioned the figure 22 and by various means he brought it down to 13 per annum. I want to point out—and this argument might appeal to my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge (Mr. Barr) that either of those numbers would have saved from destruction the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. I am anxious to save that 22 or the 13, whatever the number is, from the terrible position in which they will be

    1247
    placed if we leave the Bill as it is, and I hope there will be such an element of pity and such a desire to do the right thing by those who would be injured that the House will support the Amendment.
    10.41 p.m.
    Mr. Buchanan: The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) said, in effect, that he was not against insanity being a ground of divorce, but that he was going to vote against the Amendment because there should be a separate Bill to deal with the question. My knowledge of Parliament tells me that if you want to do a thing you should do it when the opportunity occurs, and that if it is not done then it is never done at all. The hon. Member must either be against insanity being a ground of divorce, or for it, and he cannot shove off a decision in a cowardly fashion by saying that it should be dealt with in some other kind of Bill. If we were discussing the Second Reading of the Bill I doubt whether I should vote for it, but we are not discussing the Second Reading, nor are we discussing the question of five years or seven years. We are discussing the question of incurable insanity. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) said that even if the period were 30 years it should not be a ground of divorce. Imagine the case of a man whose wife is in an asylum and he is living in a working-class house. We might say that he ought to have a good house, but the Under-Secretary for Scotland practically stated the other day that even with the best town council in the world Glasgow's housing condition would not be altered for at least 20 or 30 years. Suppose a man is left with children and he lives in a single end or a two-roomed house. He has to go to work and he has to have a woman in. If she is a single woman she will sooner or later, by the force of a hundred circumstances, be almost compelled to live with the man.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the hon. Member aware that by doing that the man would make it impossible for himself to get a divorce?
    Mr. Buchanan: That is not the case, and if the hon. Member would apply a little intelligence to the point he would see so at once. That has nothing to do with my argument. I was dealing with
    1248
    the case of a man left with two bairns of four and five and living in a kitchen. Let me say, first of all, that consideration for the children comes before consideration for the woman or the man, and the first thing the husband does is to look round for help from the brother of his wife, or his own brother, or his own sister. If he is lucky then he has got a solution of his difficulties. Otherwise, he has no solution to his problem, because his children have to be fed, clothed and reared. He has to get in a woman to look after them. They are living in a room and kitchen. Gossip will marry them; gossip will scandalise them. [Interruption.] Suppose the wife is divorced and she afterwards comes out of the asylum. She can get no pension, the woman who cohabits can get no pension, nor can the children get any pension. They are permanently left out.
    I would point out that this Bill deals with other things than incurable insanity, and I am surprised that the hon. Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) should take up such a stand on that matter. There is the power to grant divorce for desertion after three years. That is a far greater power. To prove desertion it is only necessary for the wife to go into court and prove that for three years the husband has refused to live with her. It is fifty times more difficult to prove insanity. In the first place, you have to get certificates from doctors before the wife can be put into the asylum. Then, every six months, the Board of Control re-examine the case; and at the end of the allotted period before divorce can be claimed the board have to be satisfied about the incurable insanity of the wife. Desertion is the simplest of things to prove. Further, divorce can be claimed for cruelty. Cruelty does not necessarily mean that men are bad. I do not believe that one husband in 20 or one in 1,000 is deliberately cruel to his wife. The cruelty arises, generally speaking, through over-indulgence in alcohol. However, if the wife can prove cruelty against her husband she can get a divorce, although it is known that in far less than five years—in 12 months even—a man can change from a drunken sot into a quite respectable citizen. All the same he may be divorced—although cruelty can be cured in far more cases than insanity.
    An insanity Clause has been put into the English Bill. One of the things

    1249
    which has caused me most distress is this cohabitation, this bringing up of children in what, as the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) says, are looked upon by the great mass of the people as immoral and sinful surroundings. All you are doing is forcing decent people to cohabit, and forcing children to become illegitimate. An illegitimate child in Scotland can become legitimate in every case but this. Even if the woman dies, the child cannot become legitimate. For the sake of the children, who are terribly unjustly dealt with, I very hesitatingly came into the Committee against the Bill. Having regard to the discussion and to the great mass of facts, I shall certainly vote for the Bill as it stands.
    10.53 p.m.
    Mr. Logan: Up to now only Scottish Members have taken part in the discussion, but it is an important Debate on a matter of principle and I cannot allow the occasion to go by without expressing my opinion. What we are asked to do is to insert the words, "is incurably insane," but no one has been able to define "incurably insane." We are reminded that there is a difference between the English and the Scottish law. A fortnight age two young couples wished for a divorce. One was supposed to be insane and the other to be sane. The young man was 85 years of age and the young woman, who was insane, was 84. Under the English law divorce took place and in a week's time there was a marriage and those two young people are joined together in holy wedlock. Now we have the sentiment expressed—if I were outside I should call it by some other phrase, but I have to use Parliamentary language and be polite.
    We are told about the poor young wife who goes into the mental home and leaves a small family, and about the poor loving husband who, I believe, did join in a sacrament that united them both together, and not an ordinary contract by a blacksmith or a boilermaker, or something of that kind. He agreed that they should be joined together. If we believe in marriage we must believe that they were joined in holy wedlock and assumed all the responsibilities of married life. There are four or five children, and because his true and faithful spouse breaks down and goes into a mental home he, poor soul,
    1250
    wants her to be regarded as incurably insane and he wants the right to take proceedings for divorce. I asked whether it would be ground for divorce if she were considered incurably insane and the Lord Advocate answered, "Yes."
    When I asked, suppose this woman came out cured and came home to her lovely little bairns and to her devoted husband, and was most anxious to see that affection were given to the children, and that this happened perhaps one, two or four months after the other spouse had married, I was informed that the marmiage of four months' duration could not be annulled and that the poor faithful wife who had broken down with the stress of family life would have to go away because the lady-love had deposed the mother. The father could keep to himself his new wife and there could be no going back to the courts, since rescission could not take place.
    I have heard what was said about the wife who had a practically insane mind; I am speaking of Catherine of Aragon. I have heard a philosophy that I never thought would be expressed in the House of Commons in regard to the demand for divorce. I suppose it is no use going back to the dark ages, to the time when a sacrament of marriage was supposed to be binding on men and women. According to the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) we are living in a more enlightened age in which modern thought and progression advocate that the demand for divorce ought to be agreed to. Every one of these accommodation schemes that we bring into force shows our public assistance committees that these kinds of arrangement create the mental state which we are trying to avoid. If we had proper order and if the laws of this country were administered properly and we were able to define what marriage is, even though we are not able to define what incurable insanity is, we should be able to understand whether marriage is binding or not. We would be able to understand the responsibility of family life.
    Mr. McGovern: The hon. Member mentioned me. I did not want to take him off his theme, but talking about enlightened opinion I said that we were living in an age when we should take stock of the advancement and enlightenment

    1251
    outside, and that we had to represent that opinion and not minorities and sections that tried to impose their will upon the majority. In relation to marriage, I said what is a principle to me; I would not keep two people tied in marriage who had no affection for one another, because that would be prostitution.
    Mr. Logan: This is different from keeping two people living together as man and wife. If the easy arrangement which the hon. Member would bring into the married life were acted upon, I am afraid that every week-end, whether in England or in Scotland, most of them would be leaving home. Then there is the question of the issue of the marriage. I do not know that Members of this House can assume the responsibility of declaring that, where there is a family, the House has any right to decide that the bond of marriage shall be broken because illness comes into the family. One hon. Member spoke about diseases which may result in paralysis. You do not say that they have to go. Is there any hon. Member in this House who, if they had a boy or girl at home who was in a state in which they would be of no use to anybody living, but who had life in them, that would not give of his best to one that was broken in his own home? And when it comes to the question of the partnership in life, which is supposed to be binding and on which the nation of Scotland takes its stand, the sanctity of the home has to be protected, because without purity of home life there can be no England or Scotland either. In my humble opinion, this is giving to those who want licence the opportunity to avoid the responsibility. No honourable man or woman, when the partner in life breaks down, will take the risk, during the lifetime of that partner, of taking another, when it is possible that the wife or husband who has broken down may come back to the home. While there is life, and the person has been faithful, the loyalty of the man or woman to a faithful spouse ought to hold until death.
    11.3 p.m.
    Mr. McLean Watson: I do not want to give a silent vote on this Amendment, but I shall not detain the House for many minutes. This matter was very fully
    1252
    discussed in the Scottish Standing Committee, and that Committee dealt with the Amendment in a very decisive manner. I do not know what the House may decide with regard to it, but I certainly shall not support the Amendment. I voted against it in the Committee, and nothing that has been said here this evening has changed the opinion I formed while the matter was being discussed then. I listened with very great interest to the senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh), both to-night and in the Committee. The hon. Lady made a very eloquent appeal to the Committee and to the House to support the Amendment, but her eloquence failed to convince the Committee that it was advisable to omit this particular provision from the Measure. I am keeping my hands free so far as subsequent Amendments are concerned, but, so far as this Amendment is concerned, I agree with the general principle that insanity should be a ground for divorce. I hope that hon. Members who have not the same interest as Scottish Members in this Measure will note the point made by the Lord Advocate, who drew attention to the fact that in the English Measure provision was made for divorce on the grounds of insanity, and that it will be somewhat anomalous if there is not some provision of the same sort for Scotland. On the grounds of uniformity, we are entitled to ask hon. Members who supported that provision in the English Measure to support it for Scotland.
    Captain Sir Derrick Gunston: We never divided on that in the House of Commons. We divided on the period—five years or three years, or whatever it was.
    Mr. Buchanan: But you agreed to the principle.
    Mr. Watson: The Scottish Grand Committee divided on this principle. The point I am making is that in the English Measure there is provision for divorce on the ground of insanity; and we who are opposed to the Amendment take the view that the same provision should be in the Scottish Measure. I believe that divorce should be granted on the ground of insanity, and it is in support of that principle that I intend to vote to-night.
    11.3 p.m.
    Mr. James Brown Mr. James Brown rose——
    Hon. Members: Divide.
    Mr. Brown: I am not going to give a silent vote, either. I am in favour of the Amendment, and why I should not say so, just as other hon. Members say they are against it, I do not know. I support the Amendment on religious grounds. To me it is a most amazing spectacle to see this House taking this thing as calmly as they do to-night. The most disgusting business of all is the argument that has been made against the Amendment that when there are two children in the house

    Division 297.]

    AYES.

    [11.10 p.m.

    Adams, S.V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Alexender, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Gardner, B. W.

    Nathan, Colonel H. L.

    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Gibson R. (Greenook)

    Noel-Baker, P. J.

    Anstrtuher-Gnay, W. J.

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro,W.)

    Paling, W.

    Barr, J.

    Griffiths. J. (Llanelly)

    Parker, J.

    Batey, J.

    Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

    Pearson, A.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mh'rw'll, N.W.)

    Petherick, M.

    Benson, G.

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Pethick-Lawrenee, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Hambro, A. V.

    Price, M. P.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmln)

    Broad, F. A.

    Harbord, A.

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Bromfield, W.

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Brown, C. (Mansfield)

    Hayday, A.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Buchanan, G.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Ridley, G.

    Bull, B. B.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Burghley, Lord

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

    Rowlands, G.

    Burke, W. A.

    Higgs, W. F.

    Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Russell, Sir Alexender

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Hollins, A.

    Salt, E. W.

    Chater, D.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Samuel, M. R. A.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hunter, T.

    Soott, Lord William

    Colville, Rt. Hon. John

    Jagger, J.

    Selley, H. R.

    Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Spens, W. P

    Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

    Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

    Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Storey, S.

    Culverwell, C. T.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Daggar, G.

    Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Dalton, H.

    Lawsan, J. J.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Leach, W.

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Davies, C. (Montgomery)

    Lee, F.

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Dobbie, W.

    Leech, Sir J. W.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Doland, G. F.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Donner, P. W.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Thurtle, E.

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

    Walker, J.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Ede, J. C.

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    McGovern, J.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    McKle, J. H.

    Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Maenamara, Major J. R. J.

    Wells, Sir Sydney

    Emery, J. F.

    Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

    Entwistle, Sir C. F.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Everard, W. L.

    Marsden, Commander A.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Fildes, Sir H.

    Marshall, F.

    Findlay, Sir E.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

    Mr. Erskine-Hill and Mr.

    Foot, D. M.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Unlv's.)

    Graham Kerr.

    NOES.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Gallacher, W.

    Hardie, Agnes

    Brawn, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Hutchinson, G. C.

    Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

    Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

    Kelly, W. T.

    and the accommodation is limited and a woman comes in, immorality takes place. I do not want to keep the House at all, but I thought it right that I should also say that I am not giving a silent vote, and that I am in favour of the Amendment.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 158; Noes, 31.

    Logan, D. G.

    Poole, C. C.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Westwood, J.

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Magnay, T.

    Ritson, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

    Mathers, G.

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Mr. Kirkwood and Miss

    Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

    Tinker, J. J.

    Horsbrugh.

    Parkinson, J. A.

    Tomlinson, G.

    11.19 p.m.
    Captain McEwen: I beg to move, in page line 15, after "insane," to insert:
    "and has been continuously under care and treatment as an insane person for a period of at least five years immediately preceding the action for divorce."
    I am moving the Amendment in a form slightly different from that on the Order Paper, so that it may be more intelligible. One object of the Amendment is to provide one of the safeguards which some of us think are strangely absent from the Bill as it stands. This Amendment is on the exact lines of the words which appear in the English Act. In Section 2 (10) these words appear:
    "Is incurably of unsound mind and has been continuously under care and treatment for a period of at least five years immediately preceding the presentation of the petition."
    We can see no reason why these words are omitted from the present Bill. To my mind, this is a very weak point in the Bill, and it is with the object of strengthening it that the Amendment is moved.
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: I beg to second the Amendment.
    11.21 p.m.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: In the course of a very long discussion in the Committee stage every effort was made by the promoters of the Bill to safeguard what we thought were the interests of the insane person, but we could not accept an Amendment of this sort. The reason why we ask the House to be consistent and retain the Bill in its present form is because we do not think it would be workable in any other form. It has been said that the provision is working in England. On that I should like to say this. I have made careful inquiries, and find that there have been no such cases dealt with in the English courts, and I think it is early yet to speak of what is the situation in England. I can speak with greater knowledge of the Scottish courts, and I can assure hon. Members that if English courts decide in one way it does not follow that Scottish courts will do the same. Even
    where the laws are supposed to be the same the Lord Advocate has shared with me the experience of seeing the theories of one country being set aside by the supreme court of the House of Lords, and a direct conflict between English courts and Scottish courts. I feel sure that hon. Members will share the view that this provision, properly safeguarded, will make the Bill workable in Scotland and will make it apply to the poorer classes of the community equally with the rich. I will explain what I mean by that. As a result of representations made to us while the Bill was before the Committee, we decided that it was better to safeguard the position of the insane person by inserting a Clause making it incumbent upon the court in every case to provide what we call a curator ad litem, who is an officer appointed by the court, to look after the interests of the insane person.
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: Will my hon. and learned Friend make clear who will pay for that officer? Will the poor defendant have to pay?
    Mr. Erskine Hill: No, the court will make rules of court which will cover that, and I think the Lord Advocate will bear me out when I say that there is no question of the poor person having to pay. Further, with the consent of the Board of Control in Scotland, it was made incumment upon the Board of Control to give to the court, on being required by the court, a full account of the condition of the insane person. Those steps were taken, and they met with the approval of some of those who had objected. They were put down in the form of an Amendment, in which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence), who had been very strongly against the Bill as it stood, was associated, and I think several other hon. Members who had taken similar views at an earlier stage were fully satisfied by the Amendment. Anything of a reasonable sort in which I could concur, I have been prepared to do, but I put it to the House that I think this will make the Bill workable in Scotland, and that if we were to agree to the

    1257
    Amendment, there would be a very considerable danger that, whatever the English courts are doing or may do, it would make the Bill inoperative in Scotland. I appeal to the House, which is agreed on principle to the insertion of incurable lunacy as a cause for divorce, to enable us to make that principle workable.
    11.27 p.m.
    Mr. Spens: I am very sorry that I have to disagree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Erskine Hill). I listened with some interest to the end of the Debate on the last Amendment, and I regret very much that, during the passage of the Bill last year, my fellow countrymen did not come to the assistance of those of us who tried to resist the introduction of insanity as a ground for divorce. That ground was accepted after a great deal of discussion last year, but it was accepted subject to the proviso that there was always to be a period of five years before action was to be taken in order to obtain a divorce on that ground. I listened with great care to the remarks of my hon. and learned Friend, but I cannot see any ground for suggesting that in my native land the Bill will be more unworkable if the House takes exactly the same line as it took in connection with the English Bill last year, when it insisted that there should be a period of five years before a petition was filed for divorce on this ground.
    I agree that it is impossible to obtain absolute uniformity of laws in England and in Scotland, but if the two countries start with Bills in the same terms, there is more hope of obtaining uniformity of laws than there is if they start with Bills in different terms. Therefore, I cannot see why what was inserted in the English Bill last year should not be put in the Scottish Bill this year. I would add that, with regard to the special Clause which is contained later in the Bill, I am bound to say that it does not seem to me that the interests of the lunatic's spouse will be better looked after under that procedure than in the English courts by the officers who have regard to the interests of the lunatic. Subject to that, I cannot see why the courts in both countries should not start on exactly the same lines, and I hope the House will insist that there shall be the period of five years
    1258
    before a petition of divorce can be filed on this ground.
    11.30 p.m.
    The Lord Advocate: The subject raised by this Amendment is one on which I am bound to intervene, in the exercise of my duty to endeavour to see that this Bill reaches the Statute Book in a workable form. The House has just decided by a very large majority to accept the principle that incurable insanity shall be a ground for divorce in Scotland, but it does not necessarily follow that because England decided to achieve that end by one particular method, Scotland must, forthwith, adopt an identical method. This Bill has been framed with the deliberate object of securing a more effective working of that principle that incurable insanity is a ground for divorce than has been achieved in the Matrimonial Causes Act. According to my information, experience in England, although it has not yet gone very far, has at least suggested that the terms of the Matrimonial Causes Act are, in this respect, capable of improvement. Difficulties have arisen, and I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Erskine Hill), that difficulties will unquestionably arise in Scotland if this Amendment is carried.
    I wish to make it plain that it is of set purpose and with the object of giving effect to the principle to which the House has just agreed, that it is proposed to use here the words "incurably insane" and then proceed by a subsequent Clause to define what shall and shall not be deemed by the court to be "incurable insanity." If this Amendment be carried, the Courts in Scotland, beyond a doubt, will draw this conclusion—that the mere fact that a person has been continuously confined in an institution, as an insane person, for five years is not enough to establish incurable insanity. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear hear."] I observe from the applause of the hon. Lady the senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh), and those besides her, that they are evidently supporting the Amendment in the belief that, by so doing, they will achieve a reversal of the decision which the House has just given. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The purpose of the Bill being to make this principle work, I suggest that that is a very opposite result at

    1259
    which to aim. The effect of the Amendment would be to require the court first to be satisfied of the five years continuous care and treatment, as an insane person, in an institution and then to embark on a second inquiry, namely, whether the person who has been so confined is or is not incurably insane. At that stage will arise that same conflict of medical and expert opinion to which reference has been made—and which, I understand has given rise and will continue to give rise to difficulties and embarrassment in England. I cannot, without transgressing your Rulings, Mr. Speaker, develop the alternatives which the Bill contains, but I submit that the acceptance of the Amendment would go far to defeat the decision which the House has taken. I urge the House strongly, in the interests of the efficacy of this Measure, to reject this Amendment and to allow the scheme of the Bill, designed to carry out the principle which this House has already accepted, to stand in the form in which it is at present.
    Mr. Mathers: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman saying that five years in a mental institution is to presuppose incurable insanity, without any other test?
    The Lord Advocate: The answer is "No," as a perusal of Clause 6 will indicate, but what I am saying is that the converse proposition would inevitably follow from the acceptance of this Amendment namely, that five years' continuous detention in an asylum or other institution would not amount to incurable insanity but that over and above that, independent investigation, with expert witnesses, would have to be embarked upon.
    Mr. Mathers: That is the point that I am trying to make. The second case that the Lord Advocate mentions is not certain to be carried through under the terms of this Bill?
    11.37 p.m.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am a little surprised to hear the speech of the Lord Advocate, because I thought, when we were discussing the last Amendment, that one of the strongest points, which persuaded many hon. Members to vote as they did in favour of incurable insanity being put
    1260
    into the Bill as a ground for divorce was the great inconvenience and difficulties that would arise if we had different laws for England and Scotland in this connection. On this occasion my hon. Friend who shares with me the representation of Dundee (Mr. Foot) almost persuaded me that he was right and I was wrong, because he sketched out to us very clearly what the procedure in England was, and he told us of the great care that was taken and how carefully the whole thing was gone into, and I am certain that he persuaded many hon. Members here that it would be a good plan for Scotland to have the same thing. He suggested, and the Lord Advocate also suggested, the difficulties of having two laws, but my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee also pointed out that we need not be nervous of putting in incurable insanity, because the procedure in England was so careful and that therefore the alarms that many of us had felt and a great deal of the anxiety that had been expressed could be allayed because of that procedure.
    I want to say to the Lord Advocate, who thought that if I supported the Amendment it would be because it would prevent divorce on the ground of incurable insanity taking place, that I should have preferred not to have that in, but we have decided now that incurable insanity is to be one of the grounds for divorce, and I only ask, what hon. Members asked on the last Amendment, that we should make it as sure as possible and that we should have safeguards. Many hon. Members said on the last Amendment that although they would vote for it and thought it right that this should be a ground for divorce, they also felt that there ought to be proper safeguards. I know that we cannot now discuss the procedure on Clause 6, but this is the moment when we should take our stand, because now, on this Amendment, we can have the safeguards that were put into the English Bill last year. On Clause 6 difficulties will arise. As we have decided that incurable insanity is to be a cause of divorce, I would urge the House to provide the same safeguards as those provided in England in order to see that as far as possible mistakes should not occur, and that justice and the chance of the right defence should be given to that most helpless person, the person who has been certified as insane.
    11.41 p.m.
    Mr. Davidson: I have not intervened before in the debate to-night, and I do so now in order to make an appeal to the Lord Advocate and the hon. and learned Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Erskine Hill). I would ask them to consider this question again. I supported the inclusion of the incurable insanity provision, because I believed it was necessary in a Bill of this kind, but I would ask that every care and protection should be given because of the dreadful consequences of even one or two mistakes. Considerable feeling has been shown in the debate on this question, not because hon. Members were antagonistic to one another, but because they feared that there was a risk of mistakes being made, even in isolated cases, which would ruin and blight the lives of the victims. It is the duty of the House to protect exceptional cases. I do not believe any hon. Member thinks that the Clause will be unworkable if these words are inserted. I believe that they will make the Bill more palatable to many people who have different opinions on this question because they will ease their fears with regard to possible injustices. This Bill remedies a state of affairs which has already been remedied in England, and I would appeal to the Lord Advocate not to be afraid once in a while to do as England has done. After careful consideration the House has decided this question as it affects England, and if it has decided that five years is good enough for England, surely the Lord Advocate cannot come forward and say that the same provision would make the Scottish Bill unworkable. We all know that insanity is a subject on which medical opinion differs, and in view of this and of the great importance of the cases to the individuals concerned, surely it is not too much to ask for a five-year period in order that all concerned may be absolutely certain of the incurable state of the insane person. Medical science is making great strides. Insanity is only spoken of as incurable because medical science has not yet been able to cure it, but incurable complaints are continually being brought into the category of curable, and in a few years' time science may be able to effect cures in what are to-day spoken of as cases of incurable insanity. Because of that possibility and to allay fears I would
    1262
    appeal to those responsible for the Bill to accept the Amendment, so that we may be sure that every care will be taken to see that no injustice is done.
    11.47 p.m.
    Mr. Foot: Would it be in order on this Amendment to refer to Clause 6 and to the Amendment to that Clause, because if this Amendment is carried the Amendment to Clause 6 will obviously fall to the ground?
    Mr. Speaker: There is a strict rule that we should refer to only one Amendment at a time, but these Amendments are so intermixed that it would probably be for the convenience of the House that they should be discussed together.
    Mr. T. Johnston: I suggest that it would be desirable to consider not only Clause 6 but Clause 3, because Clause 6 cannot function properly without Clause 3.
    Mr. Foot: I do not want to suggest that we should forestall the discussion on Clause 6. I simply asked whether it would be in order to refer to the proposed Amendment to Clause 6, because it is difficult to discuss the Amendment before us without referring to the other Amendment.
    Mr. Mathers: I hesitate to appear to be at variance with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) but when the Debate started on the first Amendment your Deputy in the Chair, Mr. Speaker, was asked whether there could be one discussion referring to a number of Amendments. Objection was taken to that course, and we have been adhering strictly to the rule of dealing with each Amendment as it stands, and certain speeches have been made on the Amendment before us under those limiting conditions.
    Mr. Speaker: I think the request made to me concerned not so much the Amendments as the Clauses. Permission to refer to Clause 6 was suggested and the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) suggested Clause 3 as well. There is no Amendment to Clause 3, and if it suits the convenience of the House I see no objection when dealing with this Amendment to referring to Clauses 6 and 3.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Before the Ruling was given I understood that we could not refer to Clause 6, and those who speak on the Amendment have to speak in restricted terms.
    Mr. Davidson: Did not the Lord Advocate say he would like to refer to Clause 6 but he could not do so?
    Mr. Foot: We are considering whether we should have the alternative contained in the English Act or that in the Bill. If we were to challenge the proposal now put before the House the other procedure proposed in Clause 6 would fall to the ground. Having listened to the Debate with very great care I think there is a very strong case to be made for the Amendment. I speak as a supporter of the Bill and I spoke very strongly against the last Amendment but, having listened to the hon. and learned Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Erskine Hill) and the Lord Advocate, I am at a loss to understand in what difficulty the Scottish courts will find themselves in interpreting these words. If they were carried and put into the Scottish law, all that would be necessary for any petitioner who wanted to get a divorce decree on the ground of insanity would be to prove that the respondent had been continuously under care and treatment for five years immediately preceding the action. I should not have thought that was a very difficult thing to prove. You only have to call the person in whose custody the respondent has been. The other part of the requirement will be the words "incurably insane." They are already inserted in the Bill by the decision we have first taken and whatever decision we may come to on later Amendments, the Scottish courts will be under the necessity that the English courts have already been under of determining the meaning to be attached to those words.
    Mr. Mathers: There is a definition in Clause 6 showing that five years in a mental institution constitutes presumption of "incurable insanity."
    Mr. Foot: I do not think that is quite so. I think there is no definition in this Bill any more than there is in the English Bill. As a matter of fact, the words have been interpreted as meaning "irrecoverably insane," and that is the
    1264
    meaning that has been put upon them so far in the cases that have been tried. If the Amendment were carried, it would be necessary for the petitioner to prove, firstly the five years' care and treatment in the institution and, secondly, the fact that the respondent was incurably insane. I am not discussing what precise meaning the courts in Scotland will attach to those words but, if this Amendment is rejected, the alternative one has to consider is contained in Clause 6. I have consulted with the hon. and learned Member for N. Edinburgh and we are unhappy about the form of Clause 6. I do not object to the first part of Sub-section (2), which makes it necessary for the five years' care and treatment to be proved; that is what is proposed in this Amendment. But I feel a great deal of misgiving about the second part:
    "and where such care and treatment as aforesaid is proved the defender shall, unless the contrary is shown to the satisfaction of the Court, be presumed to be incurably insane."
    That means that, if the judge has heard the evidence on both sides, and has heard the arguments of counsel for the petitioner and of counsel for the respondent who is instructed on behalf of the curator ad litem, and if he is then left in doubt, he has to determine that doubt in favour of the petitioner and against the respondent. That is the position which is going to be created if the House decides on the alternative contained in Clause 6.
    If I am right in saying that we have to decide between the Amendment and Subsection (2) of Clause 6, it is not just a question of making some subtle distinction between English and Scottish courts; we have to decide at this stage the vital question where the onus shall lie. As I endeavoured to show on the last Amendment, I do not want to place undue impediments in the way of any petitioner who comes along and says, "My wife—or husband—is incurably insane, and I can show that that is the case." We are all agreed that it is a very serious matter to insist that the burden of proof shall be laid in each case on the person who seeks to set up incurable insanity as a ground of divorce, and for that reason I propose to support the Amendment.
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Erskine Hill), speaking

    1265
    against the acceptance of this Amendment, said that it would make the Bill inoperative. He did not, however, appreciate——
    Mr. Ede: On a point of Order. Did not the hon. and gallant Member second the Amendment we are now discussing?
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: I did second the Amendment, intending to ask to be allowed by the leave of the House to make a speech. I only wanted to second the Amendment then, and just jumped up for that purpose.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member, having seconded the Amendment, has exhausted his right to speak.
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: Can I speak by leave of the House?
    Hon. Members: No.
    11.59 p.m.
    Mr. Barr: I do not desire to detain the House at any length, but I wish to appeal to the promoter of the Measure and to the Lord Advocate not to respond to what has been put before them by my hon. Friend the Member for Mary-hill (Mr. Davidson), and not to resile from the position they have taken up. I think the important thing to observe is that these very words, with but a slight transformation, are taken from Clause 6, and when an appeal is made by the senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill that the greatest care should be exercised, I would point out that not only are these words in Clause 6, and not only is there the provision in Clause 3, but you have a further provision for the exercise of greater care and far greater investigation than is possible under this Clause.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I was speaking under difficulties and I did not make myself very clear. I mentioned the safeguards which were held to be required. If I had been allowed to mention Clause 6, I should have said that the fact that five years was mentioned in that Clause was no safeguard at all, because the safeguard is taken away by the onus being placed on the insane person of defending.
    Mr. Barr: In reply to that observation I wish to make clear what is my view of
    1266
    the position. You cannot get away from it that there is a certain presumption of insanity because of the fact that the person has been under continual treatment in an institution for some five years, but the whole presumption is taken away in the second part of the Clause and you are back on equal terms. Clause 6 (2) says distinctly:—
    "unless the contrary is shown"
    That allows medical opinion to come in and allows the court to be advised by medical men that this condition is curable, that the day may come when it is quite curable and that they cannot say in any case that it is incurable.
    In Committee, the hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence) said, if I may recall it, that he would never put his hand to certify that anyone was incurably insane. That is what I was emphasising. That is possible, and there is a complete safeguard here that we may come to a point at which medical science has found a cure and is able to say that no case is incurable. That is arguable, and the whole subject is opened up. Here we have the skeleton of what we have in the full provisions of Clause 3 and more particularly in the full Clause 6. My hon. Friend argued in favour of five years; I would not like to do him the injustice of saying that he did not read the Bill, but it seemed to me that when five years was in Clause 6, there was no need to argue in favour of five years.
    Mr. Davidson: As the hon. Gentleman persists in referring to Clause 6, may I be permitted to point out to him that I have read the whole Bill, including Clause 6, but that, out of courtesy, and because of the time and because of the Rulings of the Chair, I refrained from mentioning that Clause. I had not the same opportunity as my hon. Friend is evidently taking advantage of.
    Mr. Barr: It is not my habit to take advantage either of an opportunity or of a colleague. In the comment I made I used the argument that there was no need to argue for five years when it was in the Bill already, and that that five years had lapsed. I hope that my point is clear that if we adopt this Amendment we cut out some other most important safeguards that are in Clause 3.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

    Division No. 298.]

    AYES.

    [12.5 a.m.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Poole, C. C.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Banfield, J. W.

    Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

    Ritson, J.

    Burghley, Lord

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

    Burke, W. A.

    Hambro, A. V.

    Salt, E. W.

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Spens. W. P.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S)

    Higgs, W. F.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Daggar, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Tomlinson, G.

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Lawson, J. J.

    Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Wells, Sir Sydney

    Everard, W. L.

    Maonamara, Major J. R. L.

    Westwood, J.

    Foot, D. M.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Furness, S. N.

    Mathers, G.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Gallacher, W.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Captain McEwen and Miss

    Horsbrough.

    NOES.

    Alexander, Rl. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Gibson, R. (Greenock)

    Parker, J.

    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Petherick, M.

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Price, M. P.

    Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

    Harbord, A.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Barr, J.

    Hayday, A.

    Ridley, G.

    Benson, G.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Russell, Sir Alexander

    Bossom, A. C.

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Samuel, M. R. A.

    Bromfield, W.

    Hunter, T.

    Scott, Lord William

    Bull, B B.

    Jagger, J.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Colville, Rt. Hon. John

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Leach, W.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Dalton, H.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Thurtle, E.

    Dobbie, W.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Ede, J. C.

    McGovern, J.

    Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    McKie, J. H.

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Entwistle, Sir C. F.

    Marshall, F.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Fildes Sir H.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

    Findlay, Sir E.

    Noel-Baker, P. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Mr. Erskine Hill and Mr. Graham

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Paling, W.

    Kerr.

    12.13 a.m.
    Mr. Mathers: I beg to move, in page 1, line 22, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that where the ground for the action is incurable insanity the Court shall not be bound to grant a decree of divorce and may dismiss the action if in the opinion of the Court the pursuer has during the marriage been guilty of such wilful neglect or misconduct as has conduced to the insanity."
    As the hour is very late, and I understand that at least the spirit of this protective Amendment is to be accepted by the promoters of the Bill, there is no need to take any time at all in urging the Amendment upon the House. I believe that I require the guidance of the Lord Advocate as to the exact wording of the Amendment. I do not suffer from the disadvantage of being a lawyer, and, therefore, the wording may not quite be in keeping
    The House divide: Ayes,51; Noes,74.
    with legal ideas. Consequently I ask for the guidance of the Lord Advocate as to the exact framing of the Amendment, and I hope that you will be kind enough, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to allow us, if necessary, to put the Amendment into proper form.
    12.14 a.m.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 1, to leave out "for the," and to insert "of," and in line 2, to leave out "and may dismiss the action."
    I think that it may save the time of the House if I say at once that we are prepared to accept the Amendment in principle. The only suggestion I would make is that we should make it conform to what is the practice in Scotland where the court does not dismiss an action once the merits are reached but grants a decree

    1269
    of absolvitor. I have had the benefit of consulting my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate, so that the House might have the advantage of his opinion as well my own, and I therefore move the Amendment to the proposed Amendment. It will give the court full power to grant an appeal and meet the case which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers) is anxious to meet. I think the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied with the Amendment in that shape, because it gives effect to the principle to which he wishes to give effect.
    Mr. Mathers: I am prepared to accept the Amendment to my Amendment.
    Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
    Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.
    12.16 a.m.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to insert:
    "(2) For the purposes of paragraph (d) of the foregoing subsection the defender's guilt of sodomy or bestiality shall be held to be proved if an extract of a conviction therefor in any part of the United Kingdom is produced, and the application of such conviction to the defender is admitted or proved."
    The sole object of this Amendment is to prevent the whole evidence in sodomy

    Division No. 299.]

    AYES.

    [12.19 a.m.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Marshall, F.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Mathers, G.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gunston, Capt. Sir O. W.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

    Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

    Hail, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Nathan, Colonel H. L.

    Benson, G.

    Hambro, A. V.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Paling, W.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Parker, J.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Harbord, A.

    Petherick, M,

    Bremfield, W.

    Hayday, A.

    Pethick-Lawrenee, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Bull, B. B.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Poole, C. C.

    Burghley, Lord

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Price, M. P.

    Burke, W. A.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Higgs, W. F.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Colville, Rt. Hon. John

    Holmes, J. S.

    Ridley, G.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Horsbrugh, Florenee

    Ritson, J.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Hunter, T.

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Daggar, G.

    Jagger, J.

    Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

    Dalton, H.

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Russell, Sir Alexander

    Dobbie, W.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Sait, E. W

    Duckworth. W. R. (Moss Side)

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Seott, Lord William

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Ede, J. C.

    Lawson, J. J.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Leach, W.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Entwistle, Sir C. F.

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Everard, W. L.

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Fildes, Sir H.

    McGovern, J.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Findlay, Sir E.

    McKie, J. H.

    Thurtle, E

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Macnamara, Major J. R. J.

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Foot, D. M.

    Manningnam-Buller, Sir M.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

    or bestiality cases being gone over in the civil court. It is obviously undesirable to do so, as it would lead to unpleasant consequences both in the sort of evidence that would have to came out in court for the second time, and because it is obviously wrong when the case has been tried once to go over the same evidence again.
    Mr. Graham Kerr: I beg to second the Amendment.
    12.17 a.m.
    Mr. Robert Gibson: This proposal goes right against the immemorial practice in Scotland with regard to the procedure in divorce cases. Invariably proof is demanded and is required by the court before divorce is granted. What may take place in a criminal court if, without grounds for doing so, a man pleads "guilty" to a charge of this kind? The judge of the court of session will be bound to pronounce the decree of divorce. Such a case may not happen very often, but unfortunately injustice would be done, and there would be a complete violation of that general principle requiring proof in consistorial actions in Scotland. I cannot agree to the course that is being taken, and I must oppose the Amendment.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 107; Noes, 6.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

    Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

    Windsor, W, (Hull, C.)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Wells, Sir Sydney

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Mr. Erskine Hill and Mr. Graham

    Westwood, J.

    Wragg, H.

    Kerr.

    NOES.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Spens. W. P.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Mr. Gibson and Mr. Barr.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Tomlinson, G.

    CLAUSE6.—(Interpretation.)
    12.27 a.m.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I beg to move, in page 3, line 19, to leave out from "person," to the end of the Sub-section.
    We have now come to what I think we all agreed, at the beginning of our discussions, was a difficult subject. I think it is partciularly desirable that the onus in the case of a petition for divorce on the ground——
    The Lord Advocate: On a point of Order. May I ask for your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as to whether the point which the hon. Lady proposes to argue has not already been fully covered by the Debate which took place on the earlier Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Central Aberdeen (Sir R. Smith)?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Captain Bourne): I think that point has been a good deal covered in debate, but that does not make it out of order for the hon. Lady to move an Amendment in order, if necessary, to get the feeling of the House on the point she wishes to raise.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I know there has been some difficulty in that many hon. Members thought we could not refer to Clause 6, and although the period of five years has been referred to, I do not think that until now we have discussed the subject of where the onus of proof should be. We are discussing a petition of divorce on the ground of incurable insanity. I think that many hon. Members feel, as I do, that the onus of proof should remain, as it does in the English Bill, on the pursuer, the man or woman who is sane and who seeks to have his or her marriage dissolved because his or her spouse lives in an institution owing to insanity, and has been there for five years. I ask hon. Members whether it is right that, as in the Bill at present, the defence should have to be brought by the insane person, or by someone on his or her behalf, who has practically to prove that the insanity is curable.
    In the Committee stage the Lord Advocate was asked the meaning of the words "the contrary is shown." It was a case of balancing the evidence, and if the balance of the evidence is even, then, according to this Bill, as it now stands, a divorce must be granted and the person must be stigmatised as incurably insane. I believe hon. Members in all parts of the House will, if they consider this Amendment, support it, because surely it has not been the practice in any other courts to begin by considering that a defender is either guilty or incurably insane and then leave it to the defender to prove the opposite? Is it to go out from this House that in a petition for divorce the defender is the person who has got to bring proof that he can recover with all the difficulties as to proof and all the effects of illness, instead of, as under the English method, the petitioner—the person who is sane, and who is seeking release from marriage because of such insanity? Surely the burden of proof should lie with this last person, and not with the defender, the person who is so helpless?
    It has been suggested that in all cases that insane person will be able to do it, but I suggest also that it will be found difficult to substantiate; much outside opinion will have to be called. This is absolutely the crux of the difficulty, and I do appeal to hon. Members in all parts of the House to decide to-night quite clearly that if there is to be divorce for incurable insanity, as the House has decided, then it shall be for the pursuer—the petitioner, as we say in England—to prove that the defender is an insane person.
    12.31 a.m.
    Mr. Davidson: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I think the hon. Lady has made out an unanswerable case on this particular question. She is asking that the House should support the unfortunates against those who are more fortunate, and give at least sympathy to the plea of those who

    1273
    are asking that the persons who are said to be insane shall be placed in the best possible position to defend themselves against what may be unscrupulous and selfish attempts in the future. I support the Amendment in order to clear away misrepresentation and inaccuracies that were thrown to the House in regard to a previous speech of my own on this selfsame question.
    12.32 a.m.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I do not propose to repeat the arguments that I used on the previous Clause. This is a different Amendment, only it goes much further. Its purpose is the same as that of a previous Amendment, but it would leave the words "incurably insane" without any definition at all. It would have the effect of entirely wrecking the Bill, and I would ask those who supported my hon. Friend's Amendment in the Lobby to reconsider before they take a step which, in my view, would have this effect. I think the position of this Scottish Bill would be entirely worse than the position in the English Bill if this Amendment were accepted.
    Mr. Burke: Would not the retention of these words make it possible for the court to say that after five years' treatment in an institution they could, therefore, be presumed to be incurably insane?
    Mr. Erskine Hill: They might make that presumption. That would be putting things in a similar position to the English bill, where it is clearly stated that there should be a five-year period. That, in fact, does give the English courts the power to make such presumption for themselves.
    12.34 a.m.
    Mr. Foot: I regret that on this occasion I cannot agree with the last speaker. I should have thought that if the Clause is left as it stands, it would mean that if the five years' detention and treatment in an institution were proved, the courts in Scotland were then bound to presume incurable insanity unless the contrary could be shown. That is the precise point we are discussing, and it does seem to me to be a very heavy burden, indeed, to cast upon the defender if you say that he or she has got to discharge an onus of that kind. Again, I speak with a good deal of
    1274
    diffidence in referring to what happens in the Scottish courts, but I entirely fail to see where any difficulty can arise. Suppose the Amendment is carried, what, then, is the situation under this Bill? We have laid it down in Clause I that one of the grounds for divorce shall be incurable insanity, and then we lay down under this Clause that incurable insanity shall not be held to be proved unless there has been five years' detention and treatment. That is to say, we should be in very much the same position as if we had inserted in this Bill the words that were in the English Bill—not, I agree, in precisely the same position, but in a very similar one—in that incurable sanity would be a ground for divorce but it could not be established until the defender had been five years under care and treatment. What is now being proposed would go very much further than. As I said on an earlier Amendment, this is a proposal that where the court, after having heard both sides, is left in a state of doubt, it would have to resolve that doubt in favour of the pursuer and against the defender. That is the situation you would have if the Clause were passed as it now stands.
    There is one other consideration. It does seem to be a very dangerous thing to presume that because somebody had been for five years in an asylum under care and treatment, that that person was therefore incurably insane. It may be a very rare case, but it will be within the knowledge of every hon. Member that it does occasionally happen that people are wrongly certified. Such cases have from time to time come to notice, and they have, in fact, been considered by the courts. I ask the House to consider what the situation would be if you had someone who had been wrongly certified, and who, though he was completely sane, had been detained in an institution of this kind for a period of five years. Such things have occurred. I do not say it is likely, but it might happen, and it might be that if you are to leave the onus on the defender under this Measure, obviously in a case like that in which you have a wrongful detention in an asylum for a period of five years, it might be that the person wrongly detained might find that a decree of divorce had been obtained against him or her during this period of detenton. I know that would be a very extreme case, and very unlikely

    1275
    to arise—certainly not likely to arise if the person charged with the care of the detained person did properly fulfil his duties. Although that is an extreme case, it does show the sort of difficulty which might conceivably occur if you insist on putting the burden on the insane party to the marriage. I speak as a supporter of the Bill and as a supporter of the proposal that incurable insanity should be a ground for divorce; but it does not seem to me that this Bill would lose anything in effect if this Amendment were accepted.
    12.41 a.m.
    The Lord Advocate: I should like the House to appreciate what, I think, must have become perfectly plain from the speech of the hon. Member who has just spoken, that the question on which we are now asked to take a decision is identical in every respect with the decision taken a few minutes ago on the Amendment on line 15. The question appears to be as to whether a Scottish Bill is to be framed on the English model, or on better lines with a view to obviating the difficulties that have been encountered and are being encountered. The House has taken a decision on that point, and I am bound to say I cannot understand how on this issue any difference from the wider decision can possibly be raised. As regards the question of the onus of proof, I should like to make it plain that the initial onus of proof will be laid on the petitioner or pursuer up to the point when he establishes five years continuous care and treatment as an insane person. It is on that point that the figures I referred to earlier become relevant, for of 2,500 married persons detained for five years, something in the order of 27 or 22 were discharged as cured.
    What we propose in this Clause is that when that stage is reached—the stage of proof of the five years' continuous detention—the law of probabilities, which is all that can be applied in the ascertainment of truth, should be applied in producing the inference of incurable insanity, "unless the contrary is proved." All that means is that if there is adduced on behalf of the defender by the curator ad litem or by relatives, grounds for asking that the normal inference should not be drawn, then that inference is not drawn. If there is
    1276
    evidence which satisfies that the normal inference should not be drawn, and if that evidence is before the Court, the normal presumption will not prevail. This is part of the scheme of the Bill deliberately designed as an alternative and an improvement upon the scheme of the English Bill, and I venture to suggest that as the House has already accepted the second alternative, it should be consistent and support it.
    Mr. Davidson: If this Clause is carried, will it mean that the pursuer in a divorce case on the ground of incurable insanity against a spouse who has been in an asylum for five years or more will have the onus placed upon him or her to prove incurable insanity, or will the onus be on the defender or the defender's relatives to prove non-incurable insanity?
    The Lord Advocate: I will answer the question again. The initial onus is on the pursuer to prove incurable insanity which he does by proving five years' continuous detention. The onus then shifts to the defender, and if he or she adduces evidence to the satisfaction of the Court that recovery is probable, in that event the presumption of incurable insanity will not be drawn. There is no mystery in this or, indeed, anything unusual in regard to it. I hope I have made the position clear.
    Mr. Davidson: Is it not true to say that the only thing the pursuer needs to do is the preliminary step of proving five years' incarceration?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member must not make a speech.
    11.44 a.m.
    Sir Cyril Entwistle: On a point of Order. If the Amendment on which the House has already decided, namely, to insert in this Clause
    "and has been continuously under care and treatment as an insane person for a period of at least five years immediately preceding action for divorce"
    was a preliminary Amendment to Subsection two of Clause 6, which it clearly was from the arguments already advanced by the Lord Advocate, are we not now being invited to decide on the same question on which we have already voted? If the Amendment was because of this following Amendment, and they wanted to preserve the five-year term

    1277
    condition under Sub-section (2) and to omit the presumption which follows in the second part of the Sub-section, it was precisely on that part of Sub-section (2) to which objection is now being taken that the House has already decided in voting upon it.
    Mr. Davidson: On that point of order, is it not a fact that when the previous Amendment was discussed it was an amendment of words that did not deal with the onus on the defender or the pursuer? This is an Amendment which deals with the onus on the defender, and is it not a fact that on the previous Amendment a ruling was given that we could not discuss Clause 6, and does that not give us the right to discuss this Amendment?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: In reply to the hon. Gentleman who raised the point of Order, the more it is discussed the more it comes into my mind that it is completely out of Order. I think I am bound to hold that this Amendment is contrary to the decision of the House already taken, and I must withdraw it from the House.
    Miss Horsbrugh: In the ruling that was given at the beginning we were told we could not discuss this question until we came to Clause 6. When we were discussing the first Amendment we all kept off very carefully the question of onus. It is a very big point, and we kept off it because we believed that the question of onus was coming up on Clause 6. The ruling was, I understand, that we could not discuss the subject of onus because we were to discuss it on Clause 6. Therefore, I cannot speak on the subject.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: In reply to the honourable Lady, Mr. Speaker later on ruled that the question of onus had been raised. The more I have listened to the debate the more I have become convinced that had the original Amendment to leave out line 15 been carried all this subsection would have been consequential and, therefore, the matter cannot be raised now.
    12.50 a.m.
    Mr. Spens: On that Ruling, and with very great respect may I raise two points? The first Amendment was an Amendment
    1278
    to prescribe that there should be five years' detention before a petition for divorce could be presented. That was the first Amendment and it had nothing whatever to do with what had to be proved or how it had to be proved when the petition had been presented. That Amendment was rejected, and it is therefore perfectly competent for any person to present a petition under this Bill, as the House has accepted it before there has been five years' detention at all. Now what this Clause prescribes is that if, in fact, there has been five years' detention and a petition is presented, then the pursuer can establish that, and there is a presumption in law that, having established that, there are grounds of incurable insanity. With very great respect, Sir, the two Amendments are on quite separate points. I, certainly, on the first Amendment spoke from one point of view only—that as in the English Act passed last year this House laid down that no petition should be presented until there had been five years' detention in a home, so in the Scottish Bill the law should be made the same and passed. With very great respect to you, I submit there are two separate points, and I would be grateful if I had an opportunity of speaking on the second.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think there is a mistake. There is nothing in Clause 1 saying that a petition cannot be presented before a certain time has elapsed. I must adhere to my Ruling.
    12.52 a.m.
    Mr. Foot: Perhaps I might give some assistance. I think that I was to blame when the matter was being raised on the previous Amendment when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair. What happened was that certain honourable members had spoken on that Amendment without referring to Clause 6. When I got up I asked Mr. Speaker's guidance, pointing out that it was difficult to discuss the previous Amendment without referring to Clause 6. I pointed out I did not want to discuss the merits of Clause 6, but that in order to discuss the Amendment I did think it was necessary to refer to Clause 6. Then I think it was the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers) who rose and endeavoured to preserve the Rules of the House without discussing Clause 6. At a later stage—I may be wrong—I think Mr. Speaker did say

    1279
    that it would still be open to us to discuss the proposal contained in Clause 6, although the wider interpretation had been given on the earlier Amendment. The impression that was in my mind at the time when I rose to put that point was that by referring to Clause 6, and discussing the earlier Amendment we were not precluding ourselves from discussing this at this stage.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That was a point I discussed with Mr. Speaker, and at the moment neither of us could see what was the difference between the first Amendment and the Amendment to leave out the Sub-section. We were not clear on that, and up to that moment we were prepared to give the House the benefit of the doubt; but listening to the debate has convinced me that the point has already been decided.
    12.54 a.m.
    Mr. Mathers: The reason for our being disqualified from discussing the Amendment is because the point was previously included in the Amendment which sought to lay down in Clause I that there should be a period of five years before action could be taken. I submit that that particular point is preserved by the alteration of the Amendment by allowing the words to "person", in line 19, to stand part under the Bill, and that a new principle is raised in the subsequent words which deal with a matter we have not been able adequately to discuss—the question of the onus of proof of insanity being laid now on the defender instead of, as we who arc in favour of the Amendment consider, upon the pursuer of the action.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am afraid I cannot take the hon. Member's point. The Amendment if carried would clearly mean that the Court would be able to grant a divorce on the terms which the House has decided it should not be able so to do. That is the position in which we are left. The more I have listened to the debate, the more I am convinced that this Amendment is contrary to the decision the House had already taken, and I must adhere to that and withdraw the Amendment from the House.
    Lieut.-Commander Agnew: Further to that point.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must adhere to my point and withdraw the Amendment from the House.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to move: In page 3, line 31, after "treatment" insert "(other than treatment as a voluntary patient)."
    I do not think I need say very much about this other than that it is in fulfilment of a promise made during the Committee stage to see that treatment of voluntary patients does not come within this provision.
    Mr. Graham Kerr: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to move, in page 3, line 35, at the end, to insert "and not otherwise."
    This, like the previous Amendment, is in fulfilment of an obligation incurred in the Committee stage to make it clear that no other form of presumption period should be allowed.
    Mr. G. Kerr: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 8.—(Citation.)
    12.57 a.m.
    Mr. G. Kerr: I beg to move, in page 3, line 40, to leave out "and Nullity of Marriage."
    This Amendment is merely consequential on the dropping of Clause 4 in Committee.
    Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.

  TITLE.
  Mr. G. Kerr: I beg to move, in line 2, leave out "and nullity."
  This amendment is also purely consequential.
  Mr. Erskine Hill: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Hon. gentlemen can rise to oppose the Third Reading, but they cannot object to the Third Reading.
  12.59 a.m.
  Miss Horsbrugh: I would remind the House that on this Bill—and I consider it an extremely important Bill which it has been difficult to discuss—we have had no opportunity for a Second Reading debate. Therefore, on each occasion whether in Committee or now, it has not been possible before to discuss the Bill as a whole. The first thing I would like to say is that it does make a very great change in the law of Scotland, and makes a change in more than one way, because the transferring of the onus from the pursuer to the defender is a change which the people of Scotland will view as quite astounding. Although we have had desertion as a ground for divorce for many years, the time has been extended, and the only other important change is the change of cruelty to which, I think it was the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) referred.
  I agree with a great deal that the hon. Member for Shettles ton said on the subject of cruelty and desertion. The reason many of us thought it was more important to press the subject of incurable insanity was that, as hon. Members have pointed out, it brings something quite new into our divorce laws. It has to do with the subject of illness, and something over which neither party has the slightest control. It would have been very much better if, instead of coming here to discuss the divorce laws of Scotland, we had first discussed the marriage laws. I think we have begun from the wrong end. If there had first been legislation before the House dealing with the marriage laws, it would have been very much better, and would have been appreciated by Scotland and by many hon. Members in this House. I want to say once more that it would have been a far better thing if the experiment had been first tried in England, and we had waited to see the result.
  It is a very bad thing that this Bill should come on the Statute Book at this time. It is not wanted in Scotland. It yeas brought here from another place as a Private Member's Bill. Furthermore, those Private Members who brought it forward had a great advantage in having
  1282
  their case and the legal point of view put by the Lord Advocate. I think we would all agree that there is nobody in this House who can put a case more clearly and concisely, and win through, than the Lord Advocate. It is a very great thing for the promoters of the Bill that they should have had him to put their case so clearly. I know that the promoters have done their best to meet us. Clause 3 was added to the Bill on the Committee stage because of the difficulty at that time, and because it was felt very important that there should be some defence for the unfortunate insane person. The promoters met us on that and on a proviso put forward in another Amendment. We do appreciate it. I know that they went as far as they could, but there is that great gulf between us and there has been this change in the law.
  Many of us would have liked to have had an opportunity of putting our points more clearly. Now it is going out from the House of Commons that in a case of divorce all the pursuer need prove is that the defender has been in an institution for a period of five years and the onus of attempting to prove that that is not incurable insanity is left to the insane person, namely, the person who'is to be divorced, and who has to face all the difficulties and worry coming from mental illness. I believe this is a bad Bill, and one which should not be carried through at this time. It will not help towards the happiness of the people of Scotland, nor will it bring better conditions in the homes. For these reasons, I oppose the Third Reading.
  1.4 a.m.
  Mr. Mathers: On a point of Order. There was an objection raised to the Third Reading being taken. The item on the Order Paper was for the Consideration of this Bill. The suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule was carried in order that the Consideration should be given, but not in order that the Third Reading should be taken. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, if it is in order to proceed with the Third Reading now?
  Mr. Speaker: The suspension Motion which allows this Bill to be taken after Eleven o'Clock is on Government business, and on the Divorce and Nullity of Marriage (Scotland) Bill. It does not exclude the Third Reading.
  Mr. Mathers: The point of Order I am making is that the reference on the Order Paper is to the Consideration of this Bill. There is no indication in it that the Third Reading would be taken.
  Mr. Speaker: That is often the case. The stage on the Paper is taken, and it very often follows that the Third Reading also is taken.
  Mr. Mathers: My question is whether the Third Reading can be taken in these circumstances, seeing that hon. Members objected to it being taken?
  Mr. Speaker: I have said that that is often done.
  Sir Patrick Hannon: On that point of Order. Would it be in Order to appeal to the Lord Advocate and those responsible for the promotion of the Bill to defer the Third Reading? It is imposing on all hon. Members of the House a very great embarrassment at this time of the night to discuss a Bill which is, obviously, very controversial, and the speech of the hon. Lady indicates that it would be better that this Bill should be taken on another occasion.
  Mr. Thurtle: Before the right hon. Gentleman responds to that appeal, might I represent to him the desirability of carrying on and finishing the Bill, as we have sat for so long already?
  Mr. Speaker: It is not for me to decide. It is entirely a matter for the House to decide.
  Sir P. Hannon: May I respectfully put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that the Bill has been under consideration for a long time, controversial points have been raised and acute differences of opinion have arisen between Scottish Members. Is it not asking too much of the House to discuss the Third Reading at this hour?
  Mr. Davidson: Further to that point of Order. As one who has taken his share in the criticism of the Bill, I put it to the House that we have had a full opportunity of criticising the Bill and moving Amendments. Having sat so long and having had that opportunity, we ought to see the Bill through. I suggest that any attempt to do otherwise is not for the purpose of further Consideration but for the purpose of hindering the Bill.
  Mr. Speaker: What I said was that it was not for me to decide the matter at all, but for the House itself.
  1.8 a.m.
  Mr. Westwood: From the very introduction of this Bill—and it was not this Session but last Session—I have opposed that provision which would make incurable insanity a ground for divorce. But the House has decided that that is to be a ground for divorce in future, and, like a good democrat, I have to accept the decision of the majority. But I would remind the House that those who objected to the Bill, as previously brought from another place to this House, have been justified in their objections. The Bill now before the House is not the same Bill as came from another place last Session. First of all, mere insanity was to be a ground for divorce, and, secondly, it was to be insanity for a period of three years. Now, as the result of the objections that were raised twelve months ago, it is to be incurable insanity and for a period of five years, so that we have at least been justified in the opposition we raised, because this House has determined on a different period and on certain safeguards for the unfortunate individuals who may be declared to be insane, and whose spouse may desire to get a divorce because of that. Other safeguards in law have been provided in Clause 3 which are all to the good. I would remind the House that in the original Bill, as brought from another place, there was a Clause that dealt with criminality, but which was withdrawn. I am going to claim as a result of the objections taken twelve months ago, the debates in Committee and, further, the improvements that have been made on the Report stage, that those who made their objections then and during the various stages have been justified in the line they pursued in opposition to this Bill. I do not oppose divorce as divorce. There are justifications for persons being free and, as I have already stated, my objection to the Bill was because of that Clause dealing with incurable insanity. Like a good democat, however, I am willing to accept the decision of this House and in these circumstances I, for one, will not go into the Division Lobby to vote against the Third Reading of the Bill.
  Mr. Spens Mr. Spens rose——
  Mr. Davidson: May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that we have discussed this Bill only since 9 p.m. last night? I would draw the

  1285
  attention of the House to the fact that we discussed the English Marriage Bill for many days and, therefore, may I appeal to those English Members here to go home and let us finish our Scottish business?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order.
  1.12 a.m.
  Mr. Spens: It is obvious that the Scottish Bill is considerably in advance of the English Bill passed last year. It is on that ground that I must detain the House for a very few minutes tonight, because I know well what will happen in the next two or three years. An amending Bill will be brought in to bring the law in England into conformity with the law in Scotland. The Lord Advocate has said that Clause 6 is to enable the Bill to work. It is far more than that, as any lawyer knows. The law of presumption under the Bill is that in order to get a divorce for insanity you must have a preliminary five years' detention in a home before you can file a petition for divorce. Then you have to prove incurable insanity, and that detention has nothing whatever to do with your proof of incurable insanity. It is a matter to be taken into account when you bring your petition for divorce. Persons who have been incarcerated for five years and are still in such a mental state will have to have evidence given to the Court in regard to their state.
  The Lord Advocate says there have been difficulties in the English Courts; but with great respect I think he is exaggerating. This Bill has the effect of providing that in the case of a person who files a petition for divorce and brings evidence that there has been five years' incarceration, the Court has to presume that the other person is incurably insane unless someone on behalf of him is present and is in a position to prove the contrary. The contrary that has to be proved is that the person is likely to recover. Where can you get that from? Speaking as an English lawyer I know if there is a presumption one way you have to rebut it with sufficient alternative evidence to make that presumption untenable. This is a tremendous step forward that a person should be able to go to the Court and say, "My Wife has been shut up for five years"; to bring forward some medical evidence that she is not likely to recover
  1286
  and thereupon the whole burden of proving the contrary is cast upon the person representing the unfortunate person. I realise that this is a tremendous step forward as we have here divorce on the ground of insanity. I am unable myself to agree that this is just a matter of making an unworkable law in England work better in Scotland.
  1.16 a.m.
  Lieut.-Commander Agnew: We have heard most momentous words from the Lord Advocate this evening. He has told us that the Matrimonial Causes Act, 1937, which we passed after such a long discussion, was a mistaken one and that, therefore, a new and better system is brought forward in order to be set up in Scotland. When questioned as to why certain Amendments could not be accepted, the only reply, so far as I can see, that he gave was that certain difficulties would arise in Scotland. I wonder very much what those difficulties are. I wonder if the difficulties would be found in the words of the Lord Advocate in the Committee upstairs when he was asked what is exactly meant by the words "unless the contrary is shown."—
  "If in any such case as this the medical evidence amounted to no more than this, that the probabilities of recovery are no greater and no less than in any other case of five years continuing insanity, the presumption would hold. If, on the other hand, the medical evidence could adduce any assignable reason for alleging that recovery within a definite period was more probable than in the general run of cases, the contrary would be proved and the presumption would be set aside. in other words, if the net result of the evidence is to leave the scales equally balanced as against recovery and non-recovery, the presumption would hold. If, on the other hand, the scales can be tipped in one particular case against the general run of cases, the presumption would disappear and the divorce would be refused."
  The Lord Advocate went on to say there was no novelty in the matter. He said:
  "Certain conclusions follow if a person is found in possession of stolen goods, unless he can explain satisfactorily how they came into his possession."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee on Scottish Bills); cols. 85–6, 24th May, 1938.]
  That shows that the Lord Advocate and the promoters of the Bill think it a wise and proper course we are about to take that when a man or a woman is petitioned against in a civil case and has to defend it in the most difficult circumstances possible—where they have not their sanity

  1287
  to assist their learned counsel in the courts to rebut the charge—the onus is to rest not on the pursuer to show that their insanity is incurable but on them to show that their malady is a curable malady. How on earth it is going to work in practice that an advocate representing a person who is mad is going to show that at a later stage that person will not be mad any more I cannot imagine. Yet that is the new law that is to be set up in Scotland.
  There is another point. So far as I can see, the Court itself has no obligation in the matter. It will allow this duel to go on with the sides rather unfairly matched, and at the end of that time no doubt a judge will give a verdict. In the English Statute there is a different system. There is a safeguard in the Act of 1937.

  Division No. 300.]

  AYES.

  [1.23a.m.

  Alexender, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Foot, D. M.

  Paling, W.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Fyfe, D. P. M

  Parker, J.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Gibson, R. (Greenock)

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Barr, J.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Price, M. P.

  Benson, G.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Bull, B. B.

  Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

  Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

  Burghley, Lord

  Hayday, A.

  Russell, Sir Alexender

  Burke, W. A.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Scott, Lord William

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Higgs, W. F.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Colville, Rt. Hon. John

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Holmes, J. S.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Hunter, T.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

  Jagger, J.

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Daggar, G.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Dalton, H.

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Thurtle, E.

  Dobbie, W.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Tomlinson, G.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Leach, W.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

  McGovern, J.

  Watt, Major G. S. Harvie

  Ede, J. C.

  McKie, J. H.

  Westwood, J.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Macnamara, Major J. R. L.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Everard, W. L.

  Marshall, F.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Mr. Erskine Hill and Mr. Graham

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Milner, Major J.

  Kerr.

  NOES.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Spens. W. P.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Mathers, G.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wailsend)

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Wragg, H.

  Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.

  Ritson, J.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Salt, E. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Mr. Tinker and Miss Horsbrugh

  Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments, and with an amended Title (changed to "Divorce (Scotland) Bill [Lords]").

  INHERITANCE (FAMILY PRO- VISION) BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  Wherever a petition is presented to the court an immediate duty is laid on the court itself because Section 4 reads:
  "After a petition for divorce it shall be the duty of the court to inquire so far as it reasonably can into the facts alleged."
  I should have thought that if you were going to reverse the process of the law in Scotland, as you are about to do, you would, at any rate, have accompanied that by some parallel safeguard laying a duty on the court, as in the case of the English court. This omission will weight the scales even more heavily against the unfortunate defender who, it seems to me, will have less than justice.
  Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  The House divided: Ayes, 77; Noes, 19.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  EDUCATION (SCOTUAND).
  1.40 a.m.
  Sir Murdoch MacDonald: I beg to move:
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying Him graciously to withhold

  1289
  His approval to such parts of the Perth and Kinross Educational Trust Scheme, 1938, made under the Educational Endowments (Scotland) Act, 1928, as may affect or refer to the McLaren Educational Trust, Callander, a copy of which scheme was presented to this House on the 20th day of May, 1938."
  At this early hour of the morning may I say that this is the case of a trust deed left by a merchant banker in Callandar for the benefit of certain educational purposes. It was left about 1850, and in 1882 this House passed the Educational Endowment Act under which, in 1890, these particular funds were transferred. The reasons for objecting to this scheme are very clear and definite in this case. The Endowment Commissioners have joined together 51 schemes in Perthshire, and it is perfectly true under the Statute they are entitled to join together two or more schemes.
  In this case they have joined 51 together, and of all the schemes this particular scheme is the largest. The income of this trust is about £900 to £1,000 while that of the whole scheme is about £3,900. This particular scheme has been a very successful one right from its inception. It enabled practically what we call secondary education to come in at an early stage in the town of Callandar than otherwise would have been possible. It converted the parish school into a secondary school, and, as a consequence, the Callandar High School became noted throughout the county and throughout Scotland. It was a pioneer in many ways in regard to educational matters, and, in particular, it was one of the pioneers for providing hostel accommodation for boys who came to be educated at the school. The original donor, Mr. McLaren, whose grandson is now chairman of the trustees, left an original
  1290
  bequest which brought in £350 per annum, but by careful management, and by the aggregation of other bequests, the amount has increased to nearly £1,000.
  Here, then, is a trust extremely well managed, and there seems to me no adequate reason why this scheme should be included with these minor schemes, seeing it was so well run throughout the years of its existence, and was bringing to itself other bequests. In these modern times it seems to me there is an aggregation of money in particular people's hands which is being devoted to various beneficial purposes throughout the country, but it does seem very desirable that, in addition to people with vast sums, other people should be encouraged to devote what they can for education and other purposes. It is very desirable that this trust should be exempted from the general aggregation of trusts which has been made in Perthshire.
  There is one last thing I want to say, and that is that there has been in the minds of many legal authorities a distinct doubt, and even more than an expression of doubt, an expression of certainty in their minds, that this finding of the Commissioners was not valid for this reason. The Commission ended their duties on 31st December, 1936, and the same day they issued this scheme, but under the Act of Parliament regulating the matter it was necessary that two months should be allowed——
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present: House counted, and 40 Members not being present——
  The House was adjourned at Ten Minutes before Two of the Clock until To-morrow.

  SWITZERLAND (NEUTRALITY GUARANTEES).
  SWITZERLAND (NEUTRALITY GUARANTEES).
  GERMANY (JEWS).
  GERMANY (JEWS).
  CONTRIBUTORY OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  CONTRIBUTORY OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
  MATERNAL MORTALITY (STATISTICS).
  MATERNAL MORTALITY (STATISTICS).
  MATERNAL MORTALITY. (All Causes.)
  MATERNAL MORTALITY. (All Causes.)
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE AND OLD AGE PENSIONERS.
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE AND OLD AGE PENSIONERS.
  VACCINATION.
  VACCINATION.
  ACQUISITION OF LAND (STRETFORD).
  ACQUISITION OF LAND (STRETFORD).
  EDUCATION (NEW SENIOR SCHOOLS).
  EDUCATION (NEW SENIOR SCHOOLS).
  WOODLAND FIRE, CANNOCK CHASE.
  WOODLAND FIRE, CANNOCK CHASE.
  SHIPWRECKS, BRITISH COAST.
  SHIPWRECKS, BRITISH COAST.
  RICHARD THOMAS AND COMPANY, LIMITED.
  RICHARD THOMAS AND COMPANY, LIMITED.
  NEWFOUNDLAND.
  NEWFOUNDLAND.
  ELECTRICITY SUPPLY (LEGISLATION).
  ELECTRICITY SUPPLY (LEGISLATION).
  DEFENCE SERVICES (OIL FUEL).
  DEFENCE SERVICES (OIL FUEL).
  BRITISH ARMY (SPECIAL CAMPAIGN PENSIONS).
  BRITISH ARMY (SPECIAL CAMPAIGN PENSIONS).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
GREEN BELT (LONDON AND HOME COUNTIES) BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER (LOUTH DRAINAGE DIS TRICT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
CLACTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
DERWENT VALLEY WATER BOARD BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
SURREY COUNTY COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
PIER AND HARBOUR PRO VISIONAL ORDER (CLACTON ON-SEA) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER (CHOLDERTON AND DISTRICT WATER) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER (TORQUAY) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER (CALNE WATER) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
LOCHABER WATER POWER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Considered on Report (according to Order).

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (HOURS OF POLL) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, this Bill, the Second Reading of which I have the honour to move, was introduced into another place by an honourable friend of mine, the Member for Romford, and it there passed through all its stages without opposition and with Government help and approval. It seeks to give power to returning officers in county and county borough elections to extend the polling hours from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. at the request of a candidate or candidates. Your Lordships will be aware that this is already the law for county and Metropolitan borough elections in London. A certain number of other county boroughs and municipal boroughs have obtained similar powers by Private Acts of Parliament—for example, Barking. As your Lordships are aware, in urban district council elections the hours can be extended to nine o'clock. Therefore the Bill seeks to bring uniformity throughout the country. There have been complaints from time to time about low polls at certain local elections, and it is hoped that this extension of one hour at the request of the candidates in certain districts may increase the poll and be to the general convenience of the electorate. If your Lordships will turn to the Bill for a moment, you will find it is very
720
simple and concise. The first clause amends the Second Schedule of the Local Government Act, 1933, in order to bring about the aims of the Bill. Clause 2 is the short title and also repeals the section of the Barking Corporation Act, 1933, which will no longer be necessary and to which I have already referred. I hope that explanation is sufficient for noble Lords and that the Bill will achieve a quick passage through your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, I rise only to say that His Majesty's Government offer no objection to this Bill, which is one that they recommend your Lordships to pass.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

REGISTRATION OF STILL-BIRTHS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

HIRE-PURCHASE BILL.
Order of the Day for receiving the Report of Amendments read.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, in moving that the Report be now received I should like to explain why I come to be moving the Motion. As your Lordships are aware, the Bill has been in charge of the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. He has this afternoon at this time an engagement of the greatest importance, which all your Lordships will agree he must keep, and, in the circumstances, I undertook, with the permission of your Lordships, if he should not be back in time, to take charge of the Bill. I would add that the Bill has been reached this afternoon at rather an earlier hour than was anticipated when business was arranged last week.
Moved, That the Report of Amendments be now received.—(Lord Arnold.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.
Clause 4:
Right of hirer to determine hire-purchase agreement.
(3) A hirer who has determined a hire-purchase agreement ender this section may deliver the goods to any person entitled or authorised to receive the sums payable under the agreement, and such a delivery shall be deemed to be a delivery to the owner.
LORD SALTOUN LORD SALTOUN moved to leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a point which I raised by means of a manuscript Amendment in Committee. I do not want to take up your Lordships' time with the arguments that I used then, and will simply say this. A great many of the more reputable and better-placed owners—your Lordships will realise that the word "owner" is applied to the person who sells, and the hirer is the man who buys—have made arrangements with local banks to receive deposits against the purchase of various goods by hirers. Under this clause as it stands it would be possible for a hirer to give notice to terminate his agreement and to place a whole suite of bedroom furniture in the bank at the disposal of the bank. Of course that is an impossible position and if this clause remains as it is, I am very much afraid that the hire-purchase business will be closed to all the better sort of trade and will fall into the hands of those disreputable traders who can afford to disregard an Act of Parliament because they have other holds on their customers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 5, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Saltoun.)
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, this clause has good points and bad points, as the noble Lord has indicated. The matter has been very carefully considered by those who are responsible for this Bill, and they have agreed that the subsection should be deleted.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6 [Duty of owners and sellers to supply documents and information]:
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, the object of the Amendment to this clause is to make the wording of the clause correspond with the words used in Clause 7. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 16, leave out ("notice") and insert ("request").—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8:
Conditions and warranties to be implied in hire-purchase agreements.
8.—(1) In every hire-purchase agreement there shall be—
(d) an implied condition that the goods shall be of merchantable quality, provided that if the hirer has examined the goods or a sample thereof, there shall be no implied condition as regards defects which the examination ought to have revealed.
LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH)LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH) had the following Amendment on the Paper—to leave out paragraph (d) and insert:
"(d) except where the goods are let as second hand goods, and the note or memorandum of the agreement made in pursuance of Section two of this Act contains a statement to the effect, an implied condition that the goods should be of merchantable quality, so, however, that no such condition shall be implied by virtue of this paragraph as regards defects of which the owner could not reasonably have been aware at the time when the agreement was made, or, if the hirer has examined the goods or a sample thereof, as regards defects of which the examination ought to have revealed."
The noble Lord said: My Lords. I feel that I ought to apologise to your Lordships in the first place for the fact that there are three printers' errors in this Amendment. In the last line but one on the first page of the Amendment Paper the word "the," before "effect," should be "that"; in the last line of all on the first page "should," after "goods," should be "shall," and in the last line but one of the Amendment the word "of," after "defects," should be deleted altogether. I need not trouble your Lordships very long in dealing with this Amendment. On a previous occasion my noble friends Lord Waleran and Lord Sandhurst raised certain practical objections to the paragraph that I am seeking to delete and to reproduce with qualifications. At that time my noble friends were much impressed by certain difficulties that the paragraph involved, and I myself was much enamoured by the paragraph as it stood, but we have come to the conclusion that there was a middle course, and I understand that my noble friend Lord Amulree has decided that

723
what is now suggested is a reasonable way of meeting the difficulty.
I would point out that you cannot give the same protection to the purchaser of second-hand goods which may be sold as nearly new or nearly worn out as you can in respect of goods that are definitely new. There is also this difficulty. Supposing you are dealing in the case of new goods, particularly goods of a mechanical nature, with a trader who buys goods of a reputable make from a reputable trader and proceeds to sell them again under a hire-purchase agreement without knowing or being reasonably able to know that there was any defect in them; it seems wrong that he should be held liable against defects for which he has no moral responsibility. By this Amendment the person who deals with a "dud" line of goods is completely put out of business and that is the desire not only of myself and my noble friend Lord Waleran but also, I think of the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 32, leave out paragraph (d) and insert:
("(d) except where the goods are let as second hand goods, and the note or memorandum of the agreement made in pursuance of Section two of this Act contains a statement to that effect, an implied condition that the goods shall be of merchantable quality, so, however, that no such condition shall be implied by virtue of this paragraph as regards defects of which the owner could not reasonably have been aware at the time when the agreement was made, or, if the hirer has examined the goods or a sample thereof, as regards defects which the examination ought to have revealed.").—(Lord Darcy (de Knayth).)
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, the Amendment which has been moved by my noble friend meets a difficulty which was pointed out in Committee and I agree that the paragraph should be amended in this way.
LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH): I should like to express my personal thanks for the great courtesy which the noble Lord has shown me and for the great trouble which I know he has taken in the matter.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Darcy, has taken the unusual course of apologising for a printer's error. If it is in fact a
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printer's error it is not a matter for apology on the part of the noble Lord, but it is a matter which calls for the attention of the firm of printers employed. I. should like my noble friend to make it clear whether it was in fact a printer's error or an error in the manuscript handed to the printers. There have been a number of occasions recently on which, to the very great inconvenience of your Lordships, alterations have been made in the papers that have been handed in. The legislation with which we are called upon to deal is complicated enough in any circumstances and I do not feel that I am in any way wasting the time of your Lordships' House in calling attention to the number of occasions on which these so-called printer's errors have occurred.
LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH): My Lords, I am not entitled to reply to the noble Earl, but perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say that to the best of my knowledge and belief this is a case of a printer's error. I will make further inquiries so as to set the noble Earl's mind at rest.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM): My Lords, this Amendment is of considerable importance and may affect quite a large number of people in the country if this Bill becomes law. I think it right that I should say that having considered it, although I am not satisfied that the paragraph proposed is a perfect one, I am of the opinion that it ought to be accepted by your Lordships. It is clear that the old plan of making the condition of merchantable quality apply to all goods was one which was unworkable. As your Lordships know very well, a number of things are supplied under hire-purchase agreements which are of a second-hand character. People sometimes buy, for a very small sum, motor cars of some antiquity, which will not go at all, in the hope that with the assistance of a little wire and some ingenuity they can make them run for perhaps a year or two. It would be quite impossible in a case like that to apply the doctrine that the owner was selling goods on hire-purchase with an implied condition that the goods should be of merchantable quality, because in truth everybody knew they were not. Accordingly that condition has been

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altered to except the case of second-hand goods.
Then there is another matter for consideration, and that is whether such a condition should apply in such cases as were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Darcy, where the owner could not reasonably have been aware at the time the agreement was made that there was some defect. On the whole it has been thought fair to deal with that also in the proposed new paragraph. Whether the formula used is perfect is a matter on which I would express no opinion. Indeed, it is possible that in another place it may be found that some alteration of these words will save, what everybody desires to save, troublesome litigation to ascertain whether in fact the owner could or could not reasonably have been aware of defects in the goods in question. On the whole, at the present time, this paragraph is the best that anybody here has been able to devise—I say, with humility, including myself—and accordingly I think your Lordships ought to accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I see no reason why this House should riot make arty necessary alteration on Third Reading. Your Lordships'. House prides itself on putting Bills into perfect condition and I see no reason for leaving it to another place.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the difficulty is not one of drafting so much as of indicating what is precisely meant by the statement that the owner could not reasonably have been aware of the defect at the time when the agreement was made. It involves all sorts of considerations which vary with every class of goods you can imagine. If the sale is the sale of a cow there might be unsoundness of which the owner might be aware and others not be aware. In the case of a machine there might have to be quite a different test of defects of which the owner might reasonably become aware. I am not suggesting that a better paragraph can be found. I am only saying that it is possible that a better one can be found. If anyone can find a better formula than this at a later stage no one would be better pleased than myself.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH)LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH) moved to insert:
"(4) Nothing in this section shall prejudice the operation of any other enactment, or rule of law, whereby any condition or warranty is to be implied in any hire-purchase agreement."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is really consequential and is meant to have limited operation so that it shall extend no further than I have already indicated to your Lordships.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 8, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Darcy (de Knayth).)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16 [Provisions as to bankruptcy of hirer and distress on hirer's premises]:
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 37, leave out ("that") and insert ("the").—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18 [Provision for the exercise by inferior courts other than County Courts of the jurisdiction conferred by this Act]:
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, this again is a drafting Amendment; these words are inserted to make the paragraph clear. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 6, after ("force") insert ("with respect to any inferior court").—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 20 [Application of Act to existing agreements]:
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, the first Amendment here is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 19, leave out ("and").—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, the next two Amendments are introduced to give effect to alterations made to the Bill during the Committee stage. They are purely formal, and I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 15, line 20, after ("section") insert ("ten").
Page 15, line 20, after ("twelve") insert ("thirteen, fourteen").—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD AMULREE LORD AMULREE moved the end of subsection (1):
"(d) subsection (1) of Section sixteen of this Act, so far as it relates to orders made after the commencement of this Act, and subsection (2) of the said section so far as it relates to agreements determined or actions commenced, as the case may be, after the commencement of this Act, and
(e) Section seventeen of this Act, so far as it relates to a refusal to give up possession of goods after the commencement of this Act."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to make clear that Clause 16, as applied to determined agreements, should also apply to this paragraph, having regard to the provisions of Clauses 11 and 12.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 22, at end insert the said paragraphs.—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 21:
Interpretation.
21.—(1)In this Act unless the context otherwise requires the following expressions have the meanings hereby assigned to them, that is to say—
"Hire-purchase agreement" means an agreement for the bailment of goods under which the bailee may buy the goods or under which the bailor's property in the goods will or may pass to the bailee, and where by virtue of two or more agreements, none of which by itself constitutes a hire-purchase agreement, there is a bailment of goods and either the bailee may buy the goods, or the bailor's property therein will or may pass to the bailee, the agreements shall be treated for the purposes of this Act as a single agreement made at the time when the last of the agreements was made;
LORD AMULREE LORD AMULREE moved, in the definition of "Hire-purchase agreement," to leave out the word "bailor's" in both places where that word appears. The noble Lord said: My Lords, when an agreement is entered into the ownership of the goods may not be fully the bailor's property, but he may contract to acquire the full ownership of the goods in time to transfer it to the hirer. The omission of the word "bailor's" makes this clear.
Amendments moved—
Page 16, line 14, leave out ("bailor's"),
Page 16, line 19, leave out ("bailor's").—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, the other Amendments are due to the insertion of
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the various clauses which were put into the Bill during the Committee stage; this is merely renumbering.
Amendments moved—
Page 17, line 23, leave out ("ten") and leave out ("and")
Page 17, line 24, after ("twelve") insert ("thirteen, fourteen and fifteen").—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule [Notice to be included in note or memorandum of hire-purchase agreement]:
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, the Amendment in my name is consequential on Amendments already approved by your Lordships.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, leave out from ("then") in line 9 to ("pay") in line 10.—(Lord Saltoun.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, by leave of the House I should like to say that I have examined the manuscript of the Amendments which were proposed to Clause 8. They were quite clearly written. It is not a printer's error; it appears in the manuscript itself.

HERRING INDUSTRY BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

FIRE BRIGADES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, the Bill which I present to your Lordships' House for the Second Reading today is one to make further provision for fire services throughout this country. There are undoubtedly in this House many noble Lords who will and can recall the days of the horse-drawn firefighting appliances, the capabilities of which for the organisation of fire defence on a broad basis were both inadequate and ineffective to modern ideas and conditions. The history of fire brigade services is an interesting one and can be traced back to the time immediately following the Great Fire of London in 1666 when the fire insurance companies provided their own customers with fire

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protection and a customer placed upon his house the mark of the company with which he dealt. Upon many old buildings that mark remains to-day, and it is a reminder to the observer that those companies were undoubtedly the pioneers of the modern system that we know. Since the beginning of the present century three inquiries have been made into the fire brigade system prevailing in this country, the most recent being that of the Departmental Committee on Fire Brigade services which reported in July, 1936, and was under the Chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Riverdale. This Departmental Committee reviewed the fire brigade services as a whole, and its advice was sought upon what further steps were required to improve both organisation and co-operation for the purpose of meeting danger from fire.
Under existing Acts of Parliament there is neither obligation on any local authority—subject, of course, to certain exceptions to which I shall. refer later—to make provision for maintaining a fire brigade, nor any statutory powers for central control and organisation of fire brigades. Certainly as far as my advice goes, there is no recognised standard of efficiency either as regards training or equipment. Apart from London, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen the maintenance of a fire service is a matter directly and entirely at the discretion of the local authorities. It is perfectly true to say that, while most local authorities have provided fire services and many brigades have reached a high standard of efficiency, in the smaller towns at any rate and in rural areas the position is far from satisfactory.
If your Lordships would consider for one moment the danger that might materialise from outbreak of war and the magnitude of possible fire due to incendiary bombing, it is clear that the organisation of fire services is quite inefficient and inadequate at the present time for such an eventuality. From newspaper cuttings that I have before me, but with which I need not weary your Lordships at this stage, there appears to be an absence over the whole country of any systematic or well-defined arrangements for co-operation between fire brigades. I could give your Lordships typical examples where assistance was lacking when the very need arose. Noble Lords who
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have read the Departmental Committee's Report will have found that it gave an indication of what the Committee considered to be the minimum provision necessary for a fire brigade in certain areas. They divided these areas into three: firstly, the congested area, the congested urban centre, with important risks; secondly, the smaller towns, with mainly residential property and few risks; and lastly, the area practically entirely rural in character. They further suggested a minimum provision in terms of appliances, personnel, turning-out arrangements, and water supplies, and their recommendations are reflected in Clause 1 of this Bill. For the first time in English history every fire authority in the country is now placed under a statutory obligation to make provision for the extinction of fires and, further, for the protection of life and property in case of fire, by providing and maintaining an efficient local fire service.
I turn from that to give your Lordships an explanation of one or two of the principal clauses of the Bill. Under Clause 2 a fire authority will be required to survey all water facilities in their district which might be required for fire extinction purposes, and there is also in that clause a provision that where there is a pipe water supply they will be under a statutory duty to provide and maintain hydrants. Under Clause 6 of the Bill the function of parish councils with respect to fire extinction is to be transferred to the fire authority of the district in which the parish is situated—that of course would be the rural district council. Your Lordships will note that suitable compensation will naturally be paid in cases where the parish fire brigade is taken over by the rural district council. Clause 8 and the First Schedule set up a Fire Service Commission, to be appointed by the Secretary of State. The Chairman of this Commission will be Sir Vivian Henderson. They will consider the arrangements made by fire authorities to secure assistance for dealing with exceptional fires, and review generally the fire services provided under the Bill.
Clause 11 provides for the appointment of a fire service board, to be set up in cases of default by a fire authority to carry out their statutory obligations under Clause 1. Clause 19 give power, again, to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to set up a training centre,

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at Government expense, to provide special courses of instruction for members of fire brigades. Major Morris, until recently the Chief Officer of the London Fire Brigade, is the Director-designate of this training centre, and we propose to link this establishment with a station for carrying out research into technical questions of fire protection and fire extinction. The research organisation, as perhaps your Lordships are already aware, will be under the general supervision of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and no special legislation is required to deal with this aspect of the matter. I have drawn your Lordships' attention to what I believe to be the principal clauses in this Bill, and the ones which I think will be of interest to noble Lords. If there are any questions to which noble Lords desire to have an answer, I shall endeavour to reply to them to the best of my ability. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I rise only to say that we have no opposition to offer to this Bill. As far as I know it is the only Bill dealing with this particular subject of fire brigades which has been introduced into Parliament in my time; that is, since the end of the War. It is undoubtedly necessary. There may be one or two Amendments which we wish to put down in Committee, but they are not on important matters of principle, and we reserve our remarks on those Amendments until the time arrives.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I desire to offer a few remarks on this Bill, with the terms of which I am in general agreement. There is, however, one point of omission to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. If your Lordships will look at Clause 5, on page 7 of the Bill, it will be seen that there is provision for repealing certain enactments requiring owners and occupiers to defray the expenses of fire brigades, when a fire occurs outside the borough or district, under the Act of 1847. I am in agreement with that. But I am disappointed to find that there is no clause to give effect to principles which have been adhered to by the House of Commons for
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the last sixty years, certainly, and perhaps for longer. These principles have been endorsed by the two Committees to which my noble friend who introduced the Bill referred. I have a copy of their Reports here, and I will, if your Lordships will allow me, read two paragraphs which will give expression to what I have in mind.
The Royal Commission of 1923 said, on page 172, paragraph 297:
"In our opinion, therefore, the fire service should be maintained by and on behalf of the whole local community and the expense of the upkeep and working of the brigade should be charged on the public funds of the locality."
That is plain enough. Then the Riverdale Committee of 1936, at page 33, paragraph 72, said this:
"Under the organisation we propose, specific charges levied on the individuals on whose premises fires occur for the services of a fire brigade will be abolished, the service becoming, as in our view it should become, available to all ratepayers as freely as other public services such as street lighting and police protection."
That is the text for my remarks. This Bill does not repeal the powers which have been given to certain local authorities to obtain payment from their own ratepayers for putting out fires, other than chimney fires, in their own districts. There are at present eight towns or cities which have that power to charge, but since 1878—that is sixty years ago—Parliament has refused to allow any municipality, any local authority other than those eight, to charge for fire brigade services inside their areas.
I address myself to this problem rather as one who has been connected with a great municipality, a great city, and I know this, that if we had been trying to get a Bill through the House of Commons asking Parliament to include power to that city to make a charge such as is possessed by those eight municipalities—perhaps I had better name them: they are Manchester, Newcastle, Stockport, Tynemouth, Aberdeen, Dundee, Glasgow and Greenock—the House of Commons would have refused that permission. We should not have been treated in the same way as these other eight municipalities. The two Committees to which reference has been made have endorsed the opinion that these eight municipalities should, in the interests of the public, not possess powers of charging, and presumably that

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they ought no longer to be allowed to charge. Bearing in mind the advice of the Riverdale Committee I think that those who are responsible for the present form of this Bill have been ill-advised in not putting in a clause to deal with the anomaly or omission to which I have just drawn attention.
I understand that offers have been made in an informal way—without any idea of a bargain—by certain persons who are interested in the insurance world to give sums of money with which the Government and the municipalities could embark upon fire research experiments—all for the good of the public. Such experiments were recommended, I believe, by the Riverdale Committee. They have gone further. Without making any bargain, the insurers have said that, if there is some money over, they are willing that that money should go to these eight municipalities to indemnify them, if they think they are making a monetary loss in surrendering the charging powers which they now possess. I believe that conferences have been going on, but that no result has yet been attained. If the Government do not propose to impair the principle which Parliament has held sacred for the last sixty years or to throw aside the recommendations of the two Committees—the one of 1923 and the other of 1936—I would suggest that there should be a further conference, and it should be pointed out to these eight municipalities that they are asking for something which is not quite fair. They are asking for something more than they are entitled to—legally they are entitled to it but in the public interest they are not.
If these towns cannot come to some arrangement with the Government by which they surrender their rights and perhaps receive compensation, which those who are interested in the matter are willing to give, then I say there are three possible courses to pursue, any one of which I myself would be willing to support. The first is that the Government should withdraw this Bill now until some arranged clause can be put in of the nature of the old Clause 5 which appeared in the Bill in another place. There is another way. If a few days are allowed to elapse conferences between the interested parties may produce an agreed Amendment to be put down in Committee to deal with the anomaly to which I have drawn attention. If that cannot be
734
brought about, then, as I understand there are several noble Lords in the House who take a view similar to that which is held by myself, if they would like to put down their own Amendment to embody my views in broad terms I should be perfectly willing to support it on the Committee stage.
But it should be pointed out in the meantime to these eight towns that, if any of them are still standing out and this Amendment is carried, they may get nothing. On the other hand, if they are willing to come to some arrangement with the insurers—whether they are big companies, or members of Lloyd's, or private insurers—money will be provided for the purpose of fire research, and, further, a little over for them to become possessed of as compensation for what they may lose by a surrender of their rights. If an Amendment such as I have in mind were carried here, to form part of this Bill in final form, they would get nothing for compensation. I take it that there would not be a breach of honour by the insurers who have offered to pay money for fire research and for compensation, for they will be relieved of their offer as part of an agreement because legislation will have been carried which will render it unnecessary for any payment. If any of the municipalities are standing out it may be that it is a question of time rather than determined opposition—that they have not had time to decide the point. But if there is opposition it is as well that they should know that if we carried an Amendment and if it formed part of the Act it would repeal the advantage which they have had in the past and without compensation.
LORD LOVAT: My Lords, it is with considerable embarrassment that I address your Lordships as an inexperienced and very junior member of this House, but the Bill before us this afternoon, which is to provide free fire brigades and fire engines throughout Great Britain, will have a very alarming effect in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. For that reason I venture to make a few remarks. Your Lordships are aware that a village in the English sense of the word is unknown in the North. The scattered groups of houses that represent the Scottish equivalent cover a wide area—they are isolated and independent. They are without water hydrants and many of them have no access to a road. In the Islands in

735
the event of a fire the fear of a general conflagration is negligible. In my part of Scotland the question of rating is always a very severe and anxious one. A penny rate is mentioned in the memorandum. I will not weary the House with figures. It is sufficient to say that in my County of Inverness a penny on the county rates brings in a revenue of less than £1,000. We are already heavily burdened. To comply with the conditions of this Bill a further two shillings would have to be added to the existing rates. That is an impossible thing for a county which is always verging on the edge of bankruptcy.
Dr. Johnson, during the course of his journeyings through the outer isles, remarked to Boswell that there were more gentlemen than shoes in the Highlands. If this Bill passes without amendment, the Johnson of to-morrow will find the glens untenanted and the gentlemen will be fire brigades. I would beg your Lordships to do your utmost to prevent the already impoverished Highlands from being compelled to carry this unnecessary and unjustifiable expenditure and that special treatment be granted to those districts which in no way conform to those for which this Bill was drafted.
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: My Lords, I am sure that you would like me in the first place to congratulate the noble Lord on his maiden speech in your Lordships' House. Everyone of us who liked and admired his father will be glad to feel that he has made such an auspicious start in his career in the debates in this House, and the speech to which we have listened with lively satisfaction will lead us to anticipate with pleasure his future appearances in our debates. So far as this Bill is concerned, I am sure that its general principles will commend themselves to all of us, and I propose to take exception to only one feature in the Bill which is that already dealt with by my noble friend Lord Mancroft. He omitted only one item of note—namely, that the Government themselves were so impressed with the Reports of the Royal Commission and of the Riverdale Committee that they inserted in the Bill as originally drafted the very clause that we require. Provision was made to the effect that these eight towns to which reference was made should come into the common
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practice of the country and should no longer be entitled to charge for the services rendered by their fire brigades to the ratepayers. In fact, as was pointed out in another place, the people who get the advantage of the fire brigade really pay twice, because they pay both the rates and for the services which are actually rendered.
No more eloquent speeches could have been made in support of the principle which my noble friend has enunciated than those delivered by the Home Secretary in another place and by the Under-Secretary for Scotland. The Home Secretary has never recanted nor has the Under-Secretary for Scotland, but that unfortunate Minister had put upon him the burden that is usually put upon Under-Secretaries—the burden of bowing the knee to a process of duress which seems to have been put upon Ministers in another place by the great municipalities in question. He it was who announced that the clause in the Bill as originally constructed should be withdrawn except to the extent of a very small modification. I think that we here should reinstate the clause which was originally in the Bill, or something like it. The principle has been well recognised, as my noble friend has said, for sixty years, and so far as I am concerned, if no alteration is made, I should be prepared to support an Amendment at the Committee stage of this Bill to the effect of reinserting that which the Government had originally put in the Bill.
I understand, as my noble friend has said, that certain negotiations have been in progress. One knows that the insurance companies, in effect, pay for the greater part of the services rendered by the fire brigades to people who were insured in the cities which have been referred to. Four of these cities are in Scotland and four in England, and one of them is Glasgow which I was proud and honoured to represent in Parliament for many years. It seems to me it would be becoming on the part of these cities to conform to the general law and come to terms with those who are eager to put this matter into a position in which no cavil can be made regarding the general practice. I hope the Government will be able to announce to us before the close of the Second Reading debate that the negotiations are going on in a satisfactory way, and if that is so one would

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not seek to move in any direction which would upset these negotiations; but in the event of the negotiations failing it would be incumbent upon your Lordships to see that this matter is dealt with in the Bill upon the ground of approved principle—a principle well recognised, as I have said, for over sixty years.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, there is one question I should like to ask the noble Earl with regard to the composition of the Fire Service Commission and the fire service boards, and that is whether the appointing authority will consider appointing gas or water engineers as members. As your Lordships are aware, the most vital services endangered by any large-scale fire would be the gas and water mains in the public highways, and it is a very important thing that the Fire Service Commission and boards should have the advantage of the services of such experts as I have mentioned.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I should like to reinforce what has been said by noble Lords behind me as regards the insertion of the clause which originally appeared in the Bill. As your Lordships know, there are eight towns that now require payment and, as has been pointed out, that is not in consonance with the general principles of to-day. I need hardly labour the point, and I only wish to say that I hope the representative of the Government who so very ably described the purpose of this Bill will give us some assurance that the Government are seriously concerned in this matter. On the other hand, I cannot see how it is going to help any one if we adopt the suggestion made by a noble Lord behind me that the Bill should be withdrawn. In view of the present state of affairs and the great advantages of this Bill I hope it will not be withdrawn. At the same time, I sincerely trust that the Government will make some statement, especially as I know from certain quarters in the insurance world on whose behalf I have been asked to speak, that they are very anxious that something should be done in the direction already indicated.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, before addressing your Lordships on the subject of this Bill I would like to add to what has already been said in congratulation of my noble friend Lord Lovat on his maiden speech in your Lordships' House. I am not able, I regret to say, to recall
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memories of his father in your Lordships' House, but I remember him well. The noble Lord brought great credit to the name we bear. The whole of Scotland is covered with his father's memorial, for in Scotland, if any one sees a plantation of trees, he does not pause to ask whether they belong to the Forestry Commission or to a private owner—he says, "Those are Lovat's trees." I am sure that the memory of the great services which his father rendered to the State will be an additional incentive to the noble Lord and will give him additional value in our counsels.
Every moment of leisure to-day has been taken up by calls to the telephone from one or other person asking me, if I was in your Lordships' House to-day, to say a word in criticism of this Bill. The criticism falls generally on three grounds. First of all it is pointed out that the Bill does not really refer to Scotland at all. The whole mentality of the Bill is quite alien to Scottish conditions. Clause 6 refers to parish councils. As your Lordships know; parish councils have long been abolished in Scotland. The whole mentality of the Bill, as I say, is not Scottish. I am told, and I believe it, that the application of this Bill to Scotland was arranged by the Scottish Office in consultation with one or two county clerks who were pledged to secrecy, and no single elected member of any Scottish county council was aware of what was going on or was allowed to offer any criticism. I believe that the Association of Scottish County Councils is unanimously against this Bill.
The Bill enjoins the provision by the local authorities of counties and boroughs of fire brigades and fire engines. Except in a very few important particulars, it follows closely the recommendations of the Departmental Committee. This Bill is recommended as a peace measure, but, as common sense would take alarm at the extravagance of the means adopted, it is also recommended as a war measure. The war alarm is sounded, and I had better deal with that point first. If there is a danger of incendiary bombing in time of war, then it is surely essential to concentrate all our energies upon those places which will be subjected to attack—that is, of course, the boroughs. No enemy is going to incur the expense and risk of an air raid on the country-

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side in order to set fire to a few isolated farmhouses or mansion houses. Therefore the application of this Bill to the countryside is a bad mistake in strategy. It amounts to a dissipation of our energies. If this Bill is a matter of strategy, it should be taken up by the State as a whole. If it is merely a question of the boroughs, then apply it to the boroughs—to the crowded areas—and leave the countryside out.
One of the very strongest recommendations of the Report was that the Government should make a contribution of at least £1,000,000 a year to the expenses of these fire services. That has been absolutely disregarded by the present Government, yet that was perhaps the strongest recommendation of all the recommendations made by the Committee on whose Report the Bill is founded. There is no question of life saving here. In a bad year perhaps sixty lives are lost of persons trapped in burning buildings, and of those sixty lives probably very few would have been saved by a more efficient fire service. The Report assumes, and I think I am entitled to assume too, that the only really efficient way of coping with a large fire is by means of water. The standards laid down by the Report envisage motor fire engines and motor pumps for the country districts. As a matter of fact motor pumps are chiefly of service, as your Lordships are well aware, in checking a conflagration. Even in towns motor pumps are not required to deal with fires on private property unless the whole of the premises are involved. Where the whole of the premises are involved then the motor pump is called into play. The result may be the practical wiping out of everything that is of value on the premises themselves but the checking of the spread of the flames in other directions.
For the reason I have indicated these motor fire engine pumps are not applicable to country places. Moreover, I do not think there are very many country places where the local water supply will feed these motor pumps for ten minutes, and in most country parts of Scotland they would not feed these motor pumps for ten seconds. I do not think my own water supply would feed
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them for more than a few minutes. The old system was that the nearest burgh fire engine was summoned, and if they attended they were paid for their services. As far as Scotland is concerned I think that is by far the better way. There are, after all, very large districts in Aberdeenshire, in Fifeshire, and in Berwickshire extending for many hundreds of square miles where the local water supplies are such that the use of a motor pump there is quite out of the question. The Report itself says, on page 50:
"There is no object in developing an efficient fire brigade service if that service is going to find itself put out of action by the failure of water supplies …"
For this reason the Bill is inapplicable to many parts of Scotland.
Clause 1 of the Bill empowers the Minister to lay down standards of efficiency, and the Report indicates what those standards are likely to be. I am not qualified to criticise the standards for burghs, but I should like to call your Lordships' attention to the standards laid down for the country. The minimum standard is laid down in pages 26 and 31 of the Report. It is to be a service which will turn out eight men at any time within six minutes, and which will arrive at the scene of action within twenty minutes of the alarm being given. I have made calculations which I am quite ready to put at the service of the House if it is so wished, or at the service of the noble Earl in charge of the Bill. I find on the most moderate estimate that such a service will cost between £3 and £4 per square mile, and in all probability that it will cost nearly double that sum. Now the average annual fire losses of the country districts of Scotland may be gauged from the calculations that I have made for the county in which I live. I think the figure will be very much the same in other parts. The amount is about £11 per square mile, so that a tax is going to be imposed by this Bill of about one-third of our average annual fire losses in country districts. And what will be the result? It may diminish the risk of fire by as much as about 5 per cent. No insurance company would ever make a bargain for itself on such terms, and why such a bargain should be made in their favour at the public expense is more than I can understand.

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After all, it was the insurance companies who originated the fire brigades, as we all very well know. I do not often differ from my noble friend Lord Man-croft, but I sincerely hope that his suggestion will not be carried out. It appears to me that it would be a very great pity to put in the Bill anything to give effect to the recommendation of the Departmental Committee that anybody should be stopped from charging for the use of the fire brigade. I refer for a moment to our own history. After the Norman Conquest, as your Lordships know better that I do, the Norman kings had great trouble because of an epidemic of fires. They endeavoured to combat that in the first place by establishing curfews, and in the second place, if my memory serves me, they imposed fines on anybody on whose premises a fire originated. Those fines caused a great amount of grumbling, but they stopped the fires. At the present time in the City of Edinburgh and in most Scottish burgh areas you hear a certain amount of grumbling from time to time because of the fines imposed by the authorities on any person on whose premises a chimney gets alight, but the result of those lines has been that very few chimneys catch alight.
I think that if the Government really wish to minimise the risk of fire in this country they have a very simple and inexpensive method of doing so at their disposal, by imposing fines upon all persons present on premises when a fire has broken out, and by making it a condition of every contract of insurance that the insurer shall have some suitable means of fire extinction on the premises. I believe those two things would do more to diminish the risk of fire than almost anything else that I can think of. I have myself investigated a certain number of fires and have taken some small part in putting on the market a device for releasing cattle at one movement from a burning building. I once in fact set a house on fire myself by accident. The lesson that I learned from my experience is that in peace time most fires are due to human carelessness, and that in many cases where you read that a fire originated through the fusing of an electric wire the real cause was not that but the careless dropping of a cigarette end. For these reasons I am sorry to see even the vestige that remains of Clause 5 of the
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Bill. In general I think it is a great mistake for legislation to be formulated especially designed for England and then by a single clause extended to Scotland. I shall be very sorry indeed if Clause 27 (Application to Scotland) remains part of the Bill after it has passed the Committee stage in your Lordships' House.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I am very sorry to have to differ from my noble friend Lord Saltoun, but I only differ to a very small degree. I differ from him in what he said towards the close of his speech. I gather that he speaks from personal experience. Personal experiences are always very interesting. He began by referring to this as a war measure, and then went on to advocate fines for people who had fires. I am afraid that fining people will not do much to prevent incendiary bombs being dropped on houses by enemy aircraft. I should like to take the opportunity of expressing agreement with what he said about the application of the Bill to Scotland. The Bill is not drafted in a suitable manner for application to Scotland. Although I appreciate that the Government have done something to meet that point of view, I venture to suggest that a good deal more ought to be done, and if the noble Lord sees fit to move an Amendment at the Committee stage I shall hope to be able to support him. On the other hand, I wish to support what fell from my noble friends Lord Mancroft and Viscount Home. There is no doubt whatever that if the Government do not do it we at a later stage ought to put back Clause 5. That point ought to be made with considerable emphasis in your Lordships' House. It is a matter on which I think agreement ought to be reached before the next stage of the Bill, and if agreement is not reached then I think we ought to accelerate the matter by putting back Clause 5.
LORD CORNWALLIS: My Lords, I am heartily in agreement with the points put before your Lordships by other noble Lords who have spoken and I do not wish to go over again the case of the eight authorities who still have power of charging for fire brigade services. I should like to ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill whether he can make any statement at this moment as to how far the Government have got in negotiation with

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the local authorities. I think it is now common property that a very substantial sum has been offered, and gratuitously offered, to the Government to compensate these eight local authorities—not only to compensate these eight local authorities, but to give them a very considerable sum in their pockets as well to enable them to go into the necessary question of fire brigade research. I would ask the noble Earl whether he can make any statement at all about the way in which negotiations are progressing.
I should like to make just one other point. It must be clearly a matter for the Government alone to decide how that particular parcel of money, which they may or may not receive, but which I believe was offered to them purely and simply on the basis that fire brigade services were going to be free, is to be apportioned between local authorities and research. I hope that the noble Earl may be able to give us some idea of the progress of these negotiations, because the Government as I read it in another place have, subject to these negotiations, asked your Lordships' House to restore that principle of free fire brigade services in the Bill. I agree with noble Lords who have spoken before me that unless the Government propose to do so it is our bounden duty to put that clause back into the Bill before it leaves your Lordships' House.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL): My Lords, perhaps it would be for the convenience of your Lordships if I deal very briefly with those criticisms of the Bill which have emanated from Scotland on purely Scottish questions. Perhaps I may also be allowed on behalf of His Majesty's Government to extend congratulations to my noble friend Lord Lovat on his maiden speech. We shall look forward to having the benefit of his views and experience in all future Scottish debates, and I am sure that all your Lordships will share that hope.
The noble Lord referred to the condition of affairs in his own County of Inverness. I would like to assure him that the Government, as well as I personally, completely understand the condition of affairs which exists there and have great sympathy with the conditions
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which exist in that County. I think that possibly he overlooked the fact that what are known as the crofting counties of Scotland are exempted from this Bill, or at any rate may be exempted. He will find those counties set out in Clause 27, subsection (4). I understand that if circumstances so require the Secretary of State may exempt those counties and the burghs therein from the compulsory provisions of the Bill. In that case only the enabling provisions would apply. It is recognised that in these counties special problems exist, as they do also in the case of the Islands, and it would be impossible to apply all the same considerations there that apply elsewhere. That means, I understand, that in these crofting counties set out in Clause 27 the statutory duty to provide these fire services could be exempted on the authority of the Secretary of State for Scotland.
If I may come now to the criticisms made by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, and other noble Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, referred in the first place to the fact that Scotland was not dealt with by the Riverdale Committee. I understand that although the terms of the Riverdale Committee did not extend to Scotland, many of its recommendations are considered to be applicable as regards Scotland, and if the opportunity were not now taken to include Scotland in the Bill there is no question that the efficiency of Scottish fire services would lag behind those of England and Wales. It is, I am sure, the wish of all your Lordships that in no event should that take place. The noble Lord also referred, as did the noble Lord, Lord Lovat, to the amount of money that would be expended under this Bill. Like some of the other points which were made, I think that is a question which can be better dealt with in Committee.
The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, went on to refer to the question of water supplies and he was good enough to inform me beforehand that he intended to do so. He and I have had a good many talks about this on other occasions in your Lordships' House, and I think I may perhaps be able to set his mind at rest to some extent by saying that the provisions in Clause 2, subsection (7), which deal with the water question, are only meant to indicate a review of water resources. It is not supposed that in every case water

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would be available, and indeed it is known that in many cases water may not be available, but equally it is important that this opportunity should now be taken of encouraging local authorities as far as possible to look round at any rate and see whether water supplies which may be made use of are available. By that I do not mean that local authorities are going to be asked to provide, construct or improve reservoirs and so forth, but it is the view of the Government that in many areas there may be sources of water such as ponds which with a little improvement could be made available for fire-fighting purposes. It would be indeed unwise if this opportunity was lost of taking what steps can be taken to improve these sources so that in the event of a fire in these isolated districts, should water be available from any source whatever, the best means were not adopted to make use of it. I think most of the other points which the noble Lord made were largely points which we can deal with more correctly and more completely on the Committee stage, when we can take each subject point by point.
I think it was the noble Lord who criticised the negotiations that took place—anyhow as far as Scotland was concerned—before this Bill was issued. I should like to assure your Lordships that the consultations with Scottish local authorities, confidential though they may have been, were not more so than are similar conferences which take place before a Bill reaches Parliament. That means to say that the bodies concerned, the local authorities, who may be or may have been consulted, are given and were given the opportunity of consulting their constituent members, and therefore it would not be true to say that no chance had been given to the local authorities to consult with their various engineers and so forth on this point.
Because my noble friend is going to answer what might be called the English points of the Bill, I want to emphasize once again, partly in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, the view of the Government that this Bill gives an opportunity of doing something for Scotland which should not be lost sight of. It is true that in Scotland, in the larger towns, the fire brigades already reach a high standard of efficiency, but equally, as your Lordships well know, in some of the smaller towns and in the landward
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areas they do not. A large number of areas have no protection at all or are only very inadequately covered. Many districts depend upon assistance which cannot be on the spot except after far too long a delay. Not enough attention has been given to the co-ordination of such resources as are available, particularly with a view to dealing with large and serious outbreaks of fire. The possibility of providing light fire appliances in small hamlets and towns where no major appliance is stationed has not always been given that consideration which we hope it will now receive. Again, in many other areas it cannot be said that a systematic survey of the water resources, to which I have just referred, for fire fighting has yet been carried out.
It is the view of the Government that the provisions of this Bill will go far to remedy these defects. It is also clearly desirable that Scotland should be put on the same footing as England and Wales as regards the other improvements dealt with in this Bill, such as the obligation of all local authorities to provide fire protection which is referred to in Clause the obligation to improve water supplies referred to in Clauses 2 and 3, the abolition of charges referred to in Clause 5, and the appointment of a Fire Service Commission referred to in Clause 8. Points regarding Scotland to which I have not been able to give a completely detailed answer now will, I hope, be dealt with when we come to the Committee stage of the Bill.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, perhaps I might reply to some of the points which were made during the course of this debate. There appears to be a general agreement among noble Lords on all sides of the House on the necessity for the Government to introduce a Bill such as this. One or two pertinent questions were put to me which I shall en-deavour to answer. My noble friend Viscount Mersey asked whether gas and water engineers could become members of this Fire Service Commission and the fire service boards. The duties of these bodies will be mainly administrative, but technical advice will be available; I will communicate his remarks to the Secretary of State and no doubt the point will be considered.
The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, raised the question of a grant from the Govern-

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ment towards the fire brigades. It is perfectly true to say that the Riverdale Commission recommended that a grant of £1,000,000 only should be given to the fire brigade services. I must, however, remind him of what the Government have in fact done. We have for this year alone given grants of £1,500,000 for appliances for local authorities, and in addition percentage grants towards the expenses of recruiting and training auxiliary firemen. We have reached the conclusion that, as the Exchequer will be bearing the full share of fire brigade expenditure as a whole for a number of years to come, without any direct grant towards peacetime expenditure for the local authorities—
LORD SALTOUN: I beg the noble Earl's pardon, but it is £1,000,000 annually according to the Report—on page 38.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: But the noble Lord will recollect that we are already providing £1,500,00o this year, plus the additional cost towards the expenses of recruiting and training auxiliary firemen. Lastly, I come to the question of the various towns to which many noble Lords referred and which are at the moment, under Acts of Parliament of ancient date, eligible to make certain charges to the owners and occupiers within the district for fire services. I think that noble Lords generally will realise that negotiations with the insurers and with the eight towns concerned are continuing now, and if these conversations are successful the Government will make an Amendment on a later stage of the Bill to repeal the powers of the eight Local Acts affecting these towns. I propose, subject to your Lordships agreeing, to put down the Committee stage of this Bill for July 20, by which date it is hoped that the negotiations to which I have referred will have reached a succcessful and a final conclusion.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

IMPERIAL TELEGRAPHS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I believe it is the invariable custom of your Lordships' House to extend a measure of indulgence to any member addressing it for the first time. I must claim that that indulgence be extended in full to me, for I am only taking this Bill on account of the unexpected loss of voice of my noble friend Lord Temple-more, who should have taken it, and I am bound to confess to your Lordships that I have not had as much time as I should like to render myself master of the rather complicated and technical provisions of the Bill. On the other hand, I am emboldened to introduce this Bill by the fact that, unlike the vast majority of Bills which come before your Lordships' House, or any other House, this is a very good and sensible Bill, which robs no man of his property or his liberty and confers substantial benefit upon the great mass of the people of the country. We have seen few Bills of that type since the Reform Bill.
The position is that the Government have recently entered into a new agreement with the great firm of Cables & Wireless, Limited, subject where necessary to Parliamentary authority. The purpose of this Bill is to give that authority of Parliament to those sections of the agreement which require legislation. I must make a short excursion into the previous history in order that your Lordships may appreciate the present position. Ten years ago an unsatisfactory position had arisen in competition between the Post Office and the beam system which it owned and operated and the Cable Services. After a conference at which all the Governments of the British Commonwealth were represented, an arrangement was reached, which was confirmed by the Imperial Telegraphs Act of 1929. As a result of that agreement a company, known as Cables and Wireless, Limited, was set up to conduct all the main overseas telegraph services of the British Commonwealth. The Postmaster-General leased to the company the four beam wireless stations which he possessed, at Skegness, Bodmin, Bridgewater and Grimsby, at a yearly rental of £250,000, plus 12 per cent. of any surplus profits earned by Cables and Wireless over and

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above a standard revenue of 6 per cent. on its capital of £30,000,000—namely, £1,865,000. The Postmaster-General, in addition, gave Cables and Wireless a free use of the telegraphic circuits required for working the stations, and the company was subjected to various measures of Government control. In particular, the Chairman has to be approved by the Government; the company are bound to maintain those cables which have great strategic importance, even although they are uneconomic; the Government have the right to take over in time of war, and the Imperial Communications Advisory Committee, consisting of the representatives of the various Governments concerned, was set up to exercise a certain control over the company.
Another feature of the arrangement of 1929 was that half of any surplus revenue over the standard 6 per cent. was to be applied either to the reduction of rates or to the development of services. Unhappily, owing to unfavourable world conditions, Cables and Wireless, Limited, never have been able to earn the expected income, and the standard revenue of 6 per cent. on the share capital has never been attained. Last year, its best year, the company paid 3½ per cent. The year before it paid, I think,2½per cent., and the average from 1930 to 1935 has been 1·7 per cent. Therefore the company has not been able to reduce telegraph rates as much as had been expected and hoped, although there have been substantial reductions, and in recent times the threat has developed of foreign competition on Empire routes by direct wireless telegraphy.
The Governments concerned, and the Imperial Communications Advisory Committee, have reviewed the position in the light of these circumstances, and prolonged negotiations with Cables and Wireless, Limited, have resulted in a new agreement which commands the general assent of the Governments of the Dominions and India. The broad effect of the agreement is two-fold. In the first place the company have already, from April 25 last, introduced an immediate and substantial reduction of Empire telegraph rates. So far as is practicable, and the system cannot be absolutely uniform, the rates between different parts of the Empire are to be on a uniform basis of Is. 3d. a word for plain language telegrams, with a code rate of 10d. a word,
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but existing rates which are already below this level will not be increased. This reduction is in many cases a very substantial one. For instance, the new rate of is. 3d. a word which came into force on April 25 compares with a pre-agreement rate of 4s. 7d. a word in the case of Hong Kong, of 3s. 5d. a word in the case of Australia, and 3s. a word in the case of the West African Colonies.
The second part of the effect of the agreement is that it is proposed to relieve the present strain on the finances of the company by cancelling the rental payable to His Majesty's Government, in return for a share in the equity of the undertaking. That two-fold result has been achieved by the following arrangements. The freehold of the beam stations is transferred to the company, and the rental of £250,000 a year ceases as from March 1 of this year. The company is given the continued free use of the necessary circuits. The company's licence is extended from 1953, which was its terminal date by arrangement in 1929, until 1963, and it will then remain in force unless definite action is taken. On the other hand the company, for its part, transfers to the Government 2,600,000 £I shares out of its existing capital of £30,000,000, with dividend as from March I. The standard revenue, which as I told your Lordships was fixed under the 1929 Agreement at 6 per cent., is reduced to 4 per cent.—namely, £1,200,000 as against £1,865,000. The effect of this change will be that the money available for further reductions, or further development of services, will start accruing on less revenue than heretofore. All the obligations on the company as regards the maintenance of strategic cables, and control by the Imperial Communications Advisory Committee, will remain as heretofore.
I should perha ps add that the agreement also provides that the Postmaster-General may waive a small claim, which has never been settled with the company for the last seven years, in respect of a right conceded to them to operate a wireless telegraph service with Kenya, and further, that a joint purse arrangement between the Post Office and the company is set up in connection with the European services. This joint purse arrangement will, it is hoped, diminish competition and prove a businesslike basis of

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operation. I cannot, naturally, say what the precise financial effect of the agreement will be. Neither I nor anybody else can forecast the future revenue of the company, but it is true that there may be some financial sacrifice on the part of the Government by the exchange of a rental of a quarter of a million pounds a year for a holding in the equity of the company; but I would ask your Lordships to remember that in arriving at this general settlement account has been taken of the obligation on the company to maintain even uneconomic and unremunerative cables which may be required for strategic purposes. It might easily be cheaper to scrap certain cables altogether, but we cannot allow ourselves to become wholly dependent upon wireless, and these cables must be maintained in case of emergency in time of war, because wireless always can be tapped.
It should also be remembered that the rate reductions which have already come into force will on the basis of the present traffics benefit the general public to the extent of about £500,000 a year, and that as the result of the reduction of the standard revenue to which I have referred, there is a possibility of further developments and further reductions in the cost. It is thought, moreover, that the maintenance and development of this undertaking will be a very real contribution to inter-Imperial trade, to the interchange of news and views and to the drawing closer of Imperial relations. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are not alone in making sacrifices. Financial concessions have also been made by Australia, New Zealand, India and a number of Colonial Governments, as well as by the company itself, on whom will fall the main cost of the rate reduction.
I will not detain your Lordships more than a moment with the details of the clauses. Clause r deals with such features of the arrangements which I have detailed as require Parliamentary sanction. Clause 2 provides that the Post Office Fund shall not bear the whole of the loss involved in the surrender of the rental for the beam stations. The total loss is £250,000 a year, of which the Post Office Fund will bear £100,000, while the remaining £150,000 will be borne by the Exchequer, which will re-
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ceive the dividends on the shares which become the property of His Majesty's Government. I think I cannot better sum up the Bill than in terms similar to the concluding words of the White Paper which accompanied it when it was first circulated:
"All in all, the Government are satisfied that as a general contribution to a settlement the cost of the proposed concession is more than balanced by the great importance on political, commercial, and strategic grounds of maintaining intact the great system of Imperial communications for which the company is responsible."
I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, apart from the importance of this measure, I would have risen to offer the congratulations of my noble friends and myself to the noble Duke for the excellent account he has given in his maiden speech of this complicated, and indeed intricate, measure. Your Lordships, I am sure, can congratulate yourselves on the accession to our debating strength of an eloquent speaker, and the Government in particular, I am sure, are fortunate in having the assistance of the noble Duke with his long Parliamentary experience and his undoubted abilities as illustrated in to-day's proceedings.
With regard to the Bill itself, I cannot offer any congratulations whatsoever. Ten years ago a confused and complicated situation had arisen. The submarine telegraph cables were being under-cut and supplanted by the new invention of the beam wireless. They were being undercut and supplanted in other directions as well, and, as the noble Duke has quite rightly said, it was necessary to keep these cables in being for Imperial strategic and commercial reasons. The most obvious thing to do was for the State to take over these cables. The State has wireless telegraphy, and runs it very well indeed. The State at that time had the beam wireless, and it was making a great success of it, and the State has the telephones also. The obvious thing to do surely was to take over the cables as well. At that time the Postmaster-General was an honourable member who has since become a member of your Lordships' House, Lord Selsdon —I have not seen him in his place to-day. He and his advisers drew up the original

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agreement and ten years ago they brought forward a Bill in another place which I had the satisfaction of describing as a ramp. It was a ramp, and a wicked ramp at that, in order to bolster up this sacred principle of private enterprise, which on every occasion must be allowed to override the public weal under a Conservative, or Tory, or so-called National Government. Once more the then Conservative Government of the present Earl Baldwin must needs enter into the arrangement which your Lordships have now heard described by the Government spokesman as having fallen to pieces.
At that time this profitable, successful, efficient, beam wireless system was handed over to an amalgamation of all these cable companies, winch was grossly over-capitalised—a great. unwieldy, sprawling amalgamation—at a rental, a cheap rental of £250,000 a year, which the noble Duke has been frank enough to tell us we are now ending. The £250,000 a year has been given up in ex change for 2,600,000 £1 shares in this over-watered, over-capitalised conglomeration of private companies, known now as the Communications Company, with its total capital of £30,000,000. That means that in future the Exchequer will be entitled to 8½per cent. of problematic dividends. The noble Duke made no attempt to forecast what those dividends were likely to be, but judging by the past records of the company the 8½per cent. will represent a sum of between £6,000 and £100,000 a year. It may be as low as £6,000 and as high as £100,000. It will not at any rate reach anything like the original rental of £250,000 a year.
This is a very sad business. The noble Duke made a great deal, and quite rightly, of the reduction in cable rates. Of course, the cable rates had to be reduced. They must be, in face of the competition, and part of the competition, which the noble Duke did not mention—I do not make any complaint, he had to deal with a large subject—is the increasing speed and efficiency of the growing air mail services. Of course, they must reduce their rates, just as the telephone rates have to be reduced continually in order to increase the turnover and to keep the business alive at all. It is difficult for us, a small Opposition, to divide. It will be useless on this occasion to oppose the Bill, otherwise I should have had the greatest pleasure in dividing against it. It is a
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very bad example of the effect of a fetish on a Government's mind and their refusal to undertake the obvious course of the formation of a great popularly controlled corporation for all communications, in order to bolster up these private companies. I hope it will not be long before one of my noble friends in this House occupies the place so brilliantly held by the noble Duke at the present moment, and introduces and carries through a Bill to repeal this iniquitous legislation.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I should like on behalf of those with whom I am usually associated here to congratulate the noble Duke on his maiden effort in this House. At very short notice he has delivered a remarkable speech—so lucid that any of us could fully understand exactly what the proposals on this complicated subject are. I am not going into the merits of these proposals, but as an ex-Postmaster-General during the War I realised how important it was that we should have cable ships and should be able, if necessary, to tap foreign cables as well as to take them up and divert them to our own uses. Therefore I am glad that in this Bill the Government retain power of that kind. In regard to the proposals in the Bill, I am glad that the Government have a belief in the company with whom they have been negotiating this agreement and that they feel satisfied they can be trusted to carry out certain negotiations. The Government in my judgment conduct quite enough without unnecessarily interfering with private enterprise. I congratulate them on having introduced this Bill and hope it will work satisfactorily to the advantage of the whole community.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, may I say a word or two, although I have already tried your Lordships' patience this afternoon? I should like to answer the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and my excuse for intervening is that I was Chairman of one of the Committees that drew up in 1928 the Cables and Wireless Agreement when I was at the Treasury. I also took part in the earlier conference presided over by Sir John Gilmour which came to the decision that there should be an amalgamation of Cables and Wireless and that a private company should take over the concern. In the first place Lord Strabolgi mentioned the interference or interposition of Lord Selsdon the then Postmaster-General. I was present at

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nearly every one of the various meetings, and so far as I can remember I never saw Lord Selsdon there once. He made no impression of interference on my mind, at any rate; I am not conscious of his intervention, seen or unseen.
LORD STRABOLGI: I hope I did not create any impression of that kind. Lord Selsdon was Postmaster-General at the time, and he introduced the Bill into the House of Commons. When I described the Bill as a ramp, I was describing policy, not the action of the Postmaster-General. I have the highest regard for the integrity of Lord Selsdon.
LORD MANCROFT: I thought I introduced one Bill there forming part of this amalgamation. May I remind the noble Lord of an episode that occurred when he and I were both in the House of Commons? He was asking that guns of a certain calibre should not be introduced on certain new vessels, adding that they never had been used on certain of our vessels. A new member got up and said he was wrong. The noble Lord—Commander Kenworthy as he was then—persisted and asked why the other honourable member had contradicted him. "Well," said the other member, "the honourable Member for Hull has made a statement and has just contradicted me. I know what I am talking about because I was at the battle" of which he gave the name. "and guns of the calibre that he mentioned as not being used on the ships he specified were actually on the ship that I helped to fight." Lord Strabolgi is, if I may say so with all respect, doing the same thing now. He is now saying things that I think are not the case. I took a continuous part in these cable and wireless negotiations.
The first fact that the noble Lord must realise is this. He argues that the Government should have taken over this amalgamation. It was. not the British Government's decision at all. In the conference over which Sir John Gilmour presided were the representatives of Ireland, India (Sir Atul Chatterjee), New Zealand (Sir James Parr), Australia (Mr. Ballalieu), South Africa, Canada (Sir Campbell Stuart), and others representing the Crown Colonies and Dominions, besides the British Government, and they as a body came to the conclusion that His Majesty's Government should do what they did.
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The conference passed the resolution on which this company was formed. For that reason Lord Strabolgi should have no quarrel with the British Home Government. He should know that the Home Government did not act alone but in accord with His Majesty's Dominions and Colonies. I did not come prepared to speak on this matter, which happened eleven years ago. But I think the figures were brought out to form the capitalization, not by the British Government and not by the Post Office and not by the Conference, but by Sir William McLintock and another highly skilled accountant—I think Lord Plender. These figures were brought out by two very highly responsible men with all the accounts before their eyes, who knew what they were about, and who were advising both sides. I make this confession; as Chairman of the conference at the Treasury afterwards, I never could understand why the companies paid the Government so much for the beam. They gave, I think, £250,00o a year for twenty-five years. When I moved one of the Cables and Wireless Bills in the other House the late Mr. Ramsay MacDonald in following me used an expression that has always stuck in my mind, because he was not accustomed to use slang. He said that the companies had "sold the Government a pup." So far from the companies having "sold us a pup," they agreed to pay us too much. And this Bill is proof of it. The Government really got a greater price than we were entitled to get on the basis of earning power. I consider this is a wholesome and reasonable Bill, and I beg to support it.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I should like to associate myself with what has been said with regard to the noble Duke coming into our House. I have known him for a good many years. We all know that he earned his spurs in another place and that, as we say in Scotland, he is a "bonny fechter." We are very glad to welcome him to this House, and after the speech to which we have listened to-day I feel quite sure he is going to take a very distinguished part in our proceedings. I have risen to participate in what the noble Duke said might be "harmonious proceedings." He must be somewhat disturbed in his mind at the way these harmonious proceedings have continued. I should like, so far as I am concerned, to give my

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blessing to this Bill. I speak on behalf of the Federation of Chambers of Commerce, all of whom have for a number of years been advocating a revision of cable rates. Now that these reductions are coining into force, as to why, how, or wherefor we are quite unconcerned. So long as the rates are reduced, by arrangements which have been come to between the Government and the Cable and Wireless Company, we are satisfied with the result. These rates are going to improve trade and communications between the different parts of the Empire to an extent which is perhaps not realised by many of your Lordships. The noble Duke has indicated how, in one case to the East, the charge will be is. 3d. per word whereas it has been 3s. 9d. per word up to date. That will make all the difference in the world in relation to easy and quick communications between business firms and between different communities in the Empire.
I cannot sit down without saying one word with regard to the expressions which have fallen from the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. He has indicated to us that if there were a sufficient number of members on the Opposition Benches he would go into the Lobby against this Bill. In fact he would be prepared to kill this Bill. And why? For a fetish—merely, with the object of bringing Socialistic measures into this very practical arena. I feel sure that that is not the sort of argument that would have moved your Lordships if a Division had been possible. You are bound, as my noble friend has said, to build up these matters by degrees. We have lived under the capitalistic system, and I hope we may continue to live under such a system a great deal longer. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, throws up his hands in despair. Well, the country has yet to say whether they agree with the noble Lord or whether they agree with the present Government. I believe that at the next General Election they will show that they continue to agree with the present Government and not with the noble Lord's Party. In conclusion I would say that this Bill, whether it be based on capitalism or whether it be based on bad finance or good finance, or upon bad negotiation or good negotiation as between the Government and the company, is of enormous advantage to the commercial communities and to the trade
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of this country and the Empire. I wish the Government all success with it.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

LIMITATION BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 22:
Extension of limitation period in case of disability.
22. If on the date when any right of action accrued for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act, the person to whom it accrued was under a disability, the action may be brought at any time before the expiration of six years, or in the case of actions to which the last foregoing section applies, one year from the date when the person ceased to be under a disability or died, whichever event first occurred, notwithstanding that the period of limitation has expired:
Provided that—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, at the end of proviso (c), to leave out "and" and insert:
"(d) this section, so far as it relates to the disability of infancy or unsoundness of mind, shall not apply to any action to which the last foregoing section applies, unless the plaintiff proves that the person under a disability was not, at the time when the right of action accrued to him, in the custody of a parent; and".
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, you will remember that on the last occasion when this Bill was before the House a number of Peers representing different public authorities objected to the extension of the limitation period in so far as it related to disabilities, with respect to actions against a public authority, and accordingly it was suggested that the provisions in Clause 22 relating to disability should not apply to Clause 21, which relates to actions against public authorities. That proposal was supported by arguments which I have to admit had considerable weight. It, however, occurred to me that there were a large number of infants who occasionally suffer injury by some negligence on the part of public authorities and that it would be hard if those infants had nobody to bring an action on their behalf and therefore altogether lost any right of action even in respect of what might be a very serious cause of action. Accordingly when the noble Earl, Lord Listowel,

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who spoke on this matter for the county councils, moved his Amendment and it had received the support of several other noble Lords, I suggested to him that there might be, if the general idea were agreed with, an exception in the case of infants and persons of unsound mind who had nobody who was likely to be able to bring the action on their behalf within one year from the cause of action arising, which is the period of limitation mentioned in Clause 21.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, agreed in substance with the suggestion I made in that respect, but I think it was not very clear whether an Amendment should be put down on behalf of the Government or by the noble Earl. As time seemed to be pressing, I took steps to put down the Amendment which I now move. It provides in substance for that which the public authorities require—namely, that in the ordinary case the action must be brought within the year, but, where the unfortunate infant or person of unsound mind has not got anybody in loco parentis to him or her so that the action can be brought within the year, there should be the exception that the year should not run until the disability has come to an end. I think that is agreed in all respects.
The only thing that was not mentioned at the time was this, that "parent" wanted a definition. "Parent" in fact has a particular meaning in the Fatal Accidents Act, 1846, as extended by Section 2 of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1934, and that, as your Lordships see, is the subject of the next Amendment on the Paper. I mention it because it relates to paragraph (d) where it says:
"unless the plaintiff proves that the person under disability was not, at the time when the right of action accrued to him, in the custody of a parent."
A parent for this purpose may include a grandfather or grandmother, a stepfather or stepmother, and in some cases the parent of the child. I have communicated with the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, with regard to this Amendment and I think I am right in saying he agrees with it. Accordingly I beg to move it.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 38, leave out ("and") and insert the said paragraph.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I was one of those who intended to take part on behalf of the London County Council in helping to secure this Amendment. It is one of the cases where the London County Council and the municipal authorities and county boroughs association agreed that something was desirable to protect the local authorities in regard to the numerous cases that arise. There are several hundred cases a year in London alone. Unfortunately the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, is not here at the moment because the London County Council is sitting. I have inquired from the authorities and they tell me they are more than satisfied with the Amendment that has been put down by the Lord Chancellor. As regards the further Amendment to which the noble and learned Lord has referred, I must say that, though I do not object to it, I do not like it because it is so very involved. This is legislation by reference with a vengeance. How any ordinary person is to understand what is meant I do not know. The other portions of the definition are clear and simple. This, however, has not only one reference but it has two, poor thing. It makes it very difficult. I presume it is quite clear to those who understand legal matters, but I still have an objection to extraordinarily complicated references of this kind. I am sure, however, that the local authorities are very grateful to the noble and learned Lord Chancellor.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I ventured to make certain observations on the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, speaking more particularly on behalf of the Association of Municipal Corporations. They have carefully considered the Amendment which the noble and learned Lord has moved and they desire me to say that they cordially agree with it. It meets the point of view they put forward and I thank the noble and learned Lord for meeting the objection they made to this clause. The noble Lord, Lord Ritchie, who unfortunately had to leave the House a few minutes ago, intended also to express the opinion that it met the point put forward by the Port of London Authority, and he wished to thank the noble and learned Lord for his courtesy in meeting the criticisms made on behalf of the various port authorities.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I should like to apologise to your Lordships for my inability to be present during the whole of the discussion on this Amendment owing to important public business on the other side of the Thames. I would briefly echo the words that have fallen from the two noble Lords who have just spoken. The London County Council are satisfied, and indeed more than satisfied, by the Amendment which the noble and learned Lord has put down in order to meet the case that was made during the Committee stage. That satisfaction is, of course, shared, as other noble Lords pointed out, by the municipal authorities and the port and harbour authorities in other parts of the country. I should like to say how grateful the London County Council feel for the generous and chivalrous manner in which the noble and learned Lord has met the very urgent case to which they drew his attention on the Committee stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31 [Interpretation]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert:
"'Parent' has the same meaning as in the Fatal Accidents Act, 1846, as extended by Section two of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1934."
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already informed your Lordships of the object of this Amendment. I quite admit that this is legislation by reference. It has been done by a thrifty mind in order to save a few lines of printing. In some cases, no doubt, in the course of years, that saving does amount to a fair sum of money. Using the referential system reduces the amount of printing not only in the case of Bills and Amendments but in Acts of Parliament. In the particular case I think we save three lines or it may be a little more. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to look into the matter, and if as a matter of fact it is a very short definition I might be allowed to insert it at the last stage of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 12, at end insert:
("'Parent' has the same meaning as in the Fatal Accidents Act, 1846, as extended by Section two of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1934.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

AGRICULTURAL POLICY.
LORD ADDISON LORD ADDISON rose to call attention to the recent declaration by the Prime Minister of the agricultural policy of His Majesty's Government and to its effect of restricting the full and proper use of British land for food production; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it does not, I am sure, call for any apology from me to invite your Lordships to give consideration to the statement of policy on agriculture which was included in the speech made a short time ago by the Prime Minister at Kettering. That speech contained some exceedingly frank and greatly important statements by the Prime Minister and I should like to ask your Lordships to give them a little closer examination. The Prime Minister, in his comments on this branch of Government policy, said:
"I have seen it said that we ought to grow at home all the food we need,"
and he added that he wanted to give a reason or two why he thought that was a wrong point of view.
I am not disposed to controvert the "all." I do not know myself of any responsible person who has given consideration to this subject who has ever suggested that we could grow all the food we need. But whilst we may not be able to grow all the food we need at home that is no reason why we should allow great areas of fruitful land to go out of cultivation. That is no reason why great food-producing resources, of an unequalled character in some respects, and close to the best food market in the world, should not be fully used. I suggest, too, that it is no reason why we should not seek to develop the wealth-producing capacities of our countryside to the utmost possible extent, because they would provide a greatly increased market for our town manufacturers and certainly they would add to our safety in times of peril. I do not forget also that we still have in this relatively prosperous time 1,750,000 people without any work.
That is apropos of the expression "all." Therefore, I think we might look a little further to see whether we are making proper and full use of our resources. The Prime Minister went on to say:
"We are predominantly a trading and industrial nation. We sell a large part of our productions to the Empire and to foreign

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countries, and in return we buy from them very large quantities of food and raw materials."
That is true. That is the philosophy that has dominated our national policy for fifty years. Our agricultural policy has been dictated by considerations of that kind. The Prime Minister went on in the next sentence to invite us to consider the reasons why we should not try to produce "all" our food. He said:
"The first thing would be that we should ruin those Empire and foreign countries who are dependent on our markets. The next thing would be that as their purchasing power was destroyed those markets would no longer be able to buy our manufactures. Our unemployment figures would go up and the unemployed would have to reduce their purchases of the farmers' products."
In other words we are, I take it, to plan our food production so that we do not, for example, make greater inroads upon the import of Argentine beef !
We are able in this country to produce the best beef in the world. Most of the beef that comes to us from the Argentine is the product of the descendants of British stock that were bought here and taken over to the Argentine. It cannot, surely, be a reason for our failing to make the best use of our splendid stock-producing capacity that we might make inroads into the importation of Argentine beef. I suggest that we ought to develop our stock-producing capacity to the utmost to which it properly can be developed. There would certainly be very manifest advantages if we did set out to do so. We ought not to allow City financiers and, shall I say, manufacturing considerations to dictate our agricultural policy.
Let me postulate this. I shall prove before I sit down that we certainly can increase, and certainly ought to increase, our food production by a figure of not less than £100,000,000 worth of food a year at present values. Supposing we did, where would the rural communities spend the money? They would buy the manufactures of our towns, would they not? I suggest that they would be as good a market for our manufacturers as any outside population might be. Besides, there is this consideration, which does not seem to have entered into the scheme of policy designed by the Prime Minister. Is the balance of trade in our favour at present? We all know the
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answer: it is not; it is increasingly against us. I suggest that, merely on balance of trade account alone, we ought not to hesitate to make a fuller use of our own splendid land. We ought to produce more food at home on that account only. At the present time I find that even as things are, rural England, as the result of the sale of food products, spends about £80 in our manufacturing markets as compared with £100 for the whole British Empire put together. Rural England is one of the best markets still for our manufactures in one form or another, and it would be a better market if we made full use of our land. How far short we are from doing so I will indicate before I sit down.
Let me, before I come to that, however, ask your Lordships to ponder one other consideration which appears to have been overlooked in the Prime Minister's statement according to which we should plan our food production, so to speak, by or against our sales of manufactures abroad or imports from foreign countries. Is this moneylending business quite a success? Has it been a success? I dare say there are a few noble Lords in this House who have money—or have had—say, in the Argentine railways. Is that as good an asset as a more prosperous rural England? What about Brazilian bonds: are they a paying proposition? Or Greek rails; what about them? And Mexican oil, and many more I could mention? As a matter of fact one or other person is defaulting upon our overseas loans from one end of the world to another, and I suggest that the security for these overseas lendings is at all events extraordinarily groggy.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I interrupt the noble Lord just for a moment? He is distinguishing, no doubt, when he says "overseas," between the Dominions and foreign countries, because the Dominions have not defaulted in any way.
LORD ADDISON: I am well aware of that.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: If the noble Lord will forgive me, I only wanted to put that point.
LORD ADDISON: I was mentioning a few cases; I mentioned Argentine railways and Brazilian bonds and Mexican oil and Greek railways. Thank God they are not in our Dominions! But still the fact is, as far as the Prime Minister's statement is

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concerned, that he was balancing our agricultural policy against receiving payment in terms of imports from the countries to which we have lent money. I suggest that, so far as that is concerned, a more prosperous rural England would be a better debtor than some of these other countries. It has proved to be. The fact is, we have had air eyes on the ends of the earth and we have overlooked our own fields. That is what has been happening in this country for the last fifty years.
Later on in the speech I see that the Prime Minister, with singular courage but I cannot say with very much accuracy, said:
"Our agricultural policy has been highly successful."
I invite your Lordships to test that statement. It is in any case strange evidence of success that the industry should be full of discontent from one end to the other. "Well," you may say, "farmers are accustomed to grumble." Suppose we allow that; let us look at the facts. Since this Government came into office—and, mind you, I do not wish to attribute responsibility to the present Prime Minister; I am taking the Government as a whole, the Government of which the noble Lords opposite are representatives, which came into office in 1931–538,000 acres have gone out of arable cultivation in this country. That seems a lot, but when we are confronted with these astronomical figures they do not acquire the look of reality which perhaps they should have. So I have transferred these figures into counties. Since this Government came into office an area has gone out of cultivation by the plough which is as big as the Counties of Bedford and Huntingdon put together. An area of about fifty miles by twenty miles has gone out of cultivation by the plough since this Government came into office in 1931. That land previously employed, as a minimum, four men per hundred acres; it now employs, as a maximum, one man per hundred acres. It is producing far less than half the food per acre that it was producing—not in the distant past; I am talking about six years ago. At the same time 60,000 highly skilled workers have left this land with their families, given A up, and the villages have become somewhat derelict. With great respect, if this is highly successful policy, words cease to have a meaning.
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I want to criticise, however, the policy which lies behind the general view which is embodied in the Prime Minister's speech and which has dominated our policy for fifty years. It is the policy of the city. I do not use it in any disrespectful terms. According to the official returns, since 1891 4,488,000 acres of land, that used to be actively cultivated by the plough, have gone down to rough grazing or ordinary pasture. I will transfer that again into terms of area, so that your Lordships will appreciate what the catastrophe is that has been happening in this country. It means that an area of land has ceased to be cultivated as big as the whole of the County of Essex, the whole of the County of Suffolk, the whole of Norfolk, the whole of Cambridge, the whole of the Isle of Ely, and the whole of Bedford and Huntingdon, with the County of Rutland thrown in. If you put all these acres into one area, they would make a chunk of land as big as that, which has gone out of cultivation in this country during the last fifty years. Three hundred thousand workers have left the villages, left their employment, and their villages have become derelict.
That is the kind of policy which is embodied in the Prime Minister's speech, in which the sale of manufactures and terms for foreign loans have dominated our policy. It is a national catastrophe of almost incredible dimensions, because this land was employing as a minimum, as I have said, four men per hundred acres, and now it employs about one man per hundred acres. Perhaps this is inevitable. Is it? I invite your Lordships to look with me at the undoubted capacity of our own arable land, and the figures which I will quote are not my own. They are the findings of Mr. Middleton, Chief Adviser to the Board of Agriculture in 1915, and Sir Daniel Hall, formerly Chief Scientific Adviser on Agriculture to the Government. In each case I shall understate the figures. According to these authorities an acre of good pasture will produce about 130 lbs. of meat or 168 gallons of milk per annum. The produce of the same land under the plough is 256 lbs. of meat or 360 gallons of milk. In other words, land when ploughed produces some two and a-half to three times as much food per acre as when under permanent grass, or, in terms of human and animal food together, it will produce

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as much meat per acre as good grass in addition to the corn and other food provided for human consumption. So that the whole of that vast area is now producing much less than half of what it did produce, and employing less than a quarter of the labour, according to these authorities.
I venture to quote from Sir Daniel Hall's excellent book Agriculture after the War. This is how he sums it up:
"The bulk of the grassland of this country could at best only be described as useless and with skilled management and a due expenditure on labour would pay the farmers just as well under the plough, while it would yield for the nation more than twice as much food in the shape of meat or milk or ten times as much in the form of grain."
That is the description which is applied to this area as big as the whole of East Anglia, and a considerable part of the hinterland, which is suffering in this way.
Now let me ask your Lordships to turn to another side of our neglected producing capacity. Since 1911, there has been a great increase, with this diminution in arable acreage, of the land described as rough grazing. We know what a lot of that is like. We have seen to our sorrow miles of it, full of thistles, reeds and rubbish, and producing little. The area of rough grazing has increased in Great Britain from 12,800,000 to 15,800,000 acres in the same period. The meat-producing capacity of this rough grazing land is about 15 lbs. per acre per annum. I am informed—I am still making an understatement of what can be done as a result of proper treatment of grass land—that the meat yield of rough grazings can be increased by a minimum of 7o lbs. of meat per acre, that is, by ploughing them and seeding them down properly, and so on. Some noble Lords in this House are able to tell us of their experience, after having applied this method with advantage to some of their own land. This is a fact, that the producing capacity of grass land, even meagre grass land, can be increased by 70 lbs. per acre, and that of good pastures can be increased by even more than that, even up to 150 lbs. of meat per acre. I am still hammering at the same point, that here is before us this immense undeveloped, unused productive capacity, that it is increasing in amount rapidly, and that it is a discredit that it should be so.
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I want to test this a little closer. A few years ago we used to have 4,000,000 acres of land under wheat. Now it is something under 2,000,000 acres. I dare say the noble Lord has the latest figures, but it is round about 2,000,000 acres. I am informed by the authorities that I have mentioned that we could regularly have 5,000,000 acres, but I continue to understate it. If we had 4,000,000 acres under wheat with an arable area of about 17,000,000, we should then be producing 45 per cent. of our wheat requirements, and now we are producing 21 per cent. I suggest that, with the balance of trade against us and with the added safety that that would give, that is something to be aimed at. In the year 1934—and I dare say the noble Earl, the Leader of the House, will have in his portfolio a copy of the paper to which I am going to refer—there was provided for the Government a Report from a number of scientists as to the food the people required. This was a very distinguished body of scientists, and their findings have not been questioned by anybody. They have made the same statement publicly, so I am giving nothing away. They said that the people of this country needed so much milk, so much butter, fruit, green vegetables and so on, and I have taken the trouble to translate their recommendations—unchallenged recommendations—into figures as to what the people require of these foods. I want to put it before your Lordships as another example of our undeveloped resources.
Among the first that they mentioned were milk and butter, and if you work it out you will find that the increased requirements of the community with regard to milk and milk products represent as near as may be twice the total of our present milk production for all purposes, and if you were to use the 5,000,000 acres of grass land—the experts recommended 10,000,000 as a matter of fact, but I take half of it—in the way I suggested, we should be producing all the additional milk that the community requires. But this amazing fact emerges. If you take the whole of the butter that we produce at home, from lands which are as suited as any in the world for the production of good milk cows, you will find that the butter we produce at home, including all the butter produced on the farms, represents rather less than 300,000,000 gallons of milk a year. I asked the Milk Board

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if they would kindly convert for me our butter product and imports of butter into gallons of milk, and this is the result. We produce at home, on the farms and in the factories, butter which represents the product of 300,000,000 gallons of milk. Our imports of butter alone represent the product of 2,506,000,000 gallons; in other words, about ten times as much as the total of our home production, whilst we have in our grass lands here the immense undeveloped resources of which I have been speaking. The scientists told us that the people require 6o per cent. more eggs than we now produce, that is, about 2,000,000,000 eggs more than we are now producing. And ftuit-9,000,000 additional cwts., or 78 per cent. increase on our present production; vegetables, an increase of 6o per cent. on our present production, and meat an increase of 25 per cent.
I have limited this commentary to commodities for which this country is unequalled. There are no lands in the world better than ours for the production of these commodity—milk, butter, fruit, vegetables, meat, and eggs. And yet during this time we have had this enormous decline. Well, the neglect of our food-producing capacity of this gigantic character, side by side with the declension of a great part of our country from cultivation to rough grazing, is no subject for satisfaction. The Prime Minister and the Government must have a strange idea of logic if they ask us to believe that their agricultural policy has been highly successful. The Prime Minister had had prepared an explanatory memorandum which was issued to members of another place. I have a copy of it as issued to the Press, and I have no doubt it is correct. This was an agreed memorandum issued to explain the Kettering speech. I am rather sorry that the Prime Minister took the trouble to explain it. It did not need explaining. It was a very frank and manly speech. I respect him for making it. It was the mind of the city, that is what it was, and he stated it with truthfulness, candour and straightforwardness. That is the mind that has dominated British policy for fifty years, and it is ruining the countryside. That is my point, and I do not see any necessity whatever for the issue of this explanatory memorandum.
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However, in the explanatory memorandum we are told that the proper course, the only permanent course, is to assist home agriculture by all possible means to develop along its own natural lines. Well, if it was allowed to, there might be something to say for it. But is it? What was the cause of the great slump after 1921? It was not the repeal of the Corn Production Act, which the Prime Minister blamed for it, it was the sustained, deliberate, cruel deflation which forced down the price of everything. Agriculture had no say in it, not all the farmers in the country had a voice in it. That was the cause of the tremendous fall in prices and of the enormous importation that followed later on during the 'twenties up to 1930. That was the cause of it, and everybody knows it. The re-imposition of the gold standard had its share, but those were the causes. Agriculture was not allowed to develop along its natural lines, it was forced down into the morass by the financial policy that was adopted.
May I suggest to your Lozdships that there should be at least three features of agricultural policy, and that unless these three are present it cannot possibly be successful? First, the land should be well equipped—equipped in such a way that a full and proper use of it can be made by a competent producer. Nobody will deny that that is right. If we are going to make the best use of the land it should be properly equipped, properly drained, have proper buildings and proper equipment in many ways. The second condition is that there should be sufficient reliability and fairness of price to encourage a competent producer to make a full and proper use of the land. Nobody would dispute that. I thought I might get some approval even from the opposite side on that proposition. A man with a good lamb to sell a year ago would make £1 or 15s. more than he would get for the same lamb today. It is the same with other products. A complete uncertainty and unreliability of price has spread like a blight over the whole of this industry for fifty years. No one knows what he is going to get next year for products for which he is getting so much this year. I notice your Lordships approve this second condition that there should be sufficient reliability and fairness of price to encourage a

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competent cultivator to make full and proper use of the land. We shall never get the land properly used until that condition is fulfilled. The third condition which I suggest should be a characteristic of a proper agricultural policy is this—conditions of work and wages on the land should be such as will secure a good and satisfying standard of life for the worker and will make him and his children want to stay there. I notice that is approved also by your Lordships. When we get such a measure of unanimity among your Lordships we are getting on.
Let me ask your Lordships, is there any one of these three conditions, with which on the whole I believe we all agree—we are not splitting hairs as to a word or two—which is attendant upon the agricultural policy of His Majesty's Government? Not one—not a single vestige of one. How can you expect it to succeed? Whole counties have gone out of cultivation; there is no reliability of price; the farmers are grousing about it from one end of the country to the other, and if you ask the first sheep farmer you come across directly you get outside I have no doubt he will tell you in completely un-parliamentary language exactly what he thinks about it. So far as the labourers are concerned, wages have gone up, I am glad to say, a little bit in the last year or two, because skilled agricultural workers are getting as precious as rubies—they have been starved out of the industry by a mistaken policy. We ought to have such a policy as will ensure such a price to the producer that he will be able to pay such wages to his men as will keep them on the land. We shall never succeed until we do that, and there is no glimmering of that reality in the policy of His Majesty's Government. Instead of that you have a queer, weird, patchwork quilt arrangement of bits of quotas, bits of tariffs, bits of quantitative regulation, a few odd subsidies, and all the rest of it—a glorious medley, but it is not a policy.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Like Free Trade !
LORD ADDISON: I am not an apostle of Free Trade. I am an apostle of a managed market. That is not Free Trade at all. We want to have a managed market. We want to have a managed price system, and until you have you will
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never get restoration in agriculture. So the noble Viscount is pushing at a door that has long been open. These are some of the results which attend, and will continue to attend, the agricultural policy of His Majesty's Government. More and more cultivated land is becoming derelict—not odd fields but great tracts, in six years as big as two counties. Secondly, precious skilled workers—10,000 to 20,000 every year—are leaving the villages they love and the work they know. Thirdly, the industry is seething with uncertainty and discontent from one end of it to the other, and I find the responsible and highly competent farmers more bitter than anybody else because they know what can be done and what ought to be done. The policy that has been and is being attended beyond question with these results is not a successful policy. It is a manifest and desolating failure. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD CRANWORTH: My Lords, I am personally very glad that this Motion has been brought forward in your Lordships' House, and I am also very glad that it has been the noble Lord who has brought it forward, because, in company with others of your Lordships, I well remember, when the noble Lord was at the Ministry of Agriculture, his administration as sympathetic as it was able, and I hope, when an unfortunate turn of the wheel brings back, as it will some day of course bring back, the noble Lord's Party into office, we shall again have the pleasure of having the noble Lord at the Ministry. Against that day I shall keep the OFFICIAL REPORT which will in due course appear to-morrow, and I shall have the very greatest pleasure in quoting it to him—that is, if the whole edition has not been bought up by our friends in New Zealand on account of his remarks about butter, with which, for my part, I entirely agree. One thing which struck me as I listened to the noble Lord was how very much easier it is, and must be, to criticise the policy of a Government of which you are not a supporter—not that some of us do not do our best from time to time to undertake that unpleasant duty! The noble Lord will possibly acknowledge, and at all events will remember, that during the years in which he held office the harvest of measures for the benefit of agriculture was a singularly bad one.
LORD ADDISON: I am sure the noble Lord does not wish to misrepresent me. I was in office about fifteen months, and during that time I was engaged in passing the Land Drainage Act, the Marketing Act, and the Land Acquisition Act, which I wish your Lordships would use. All of these measures were placed on the Statute Book by me, and most valuable Acts two of them have been, for they have been made great use of by the present Government.
LORD CRANWORTH: I do not in the least desire to belittle the achievements or intentions of the noble Lord, but I do not detract from my statement when I say that while the Marketing Acts owed their origin to the noble Lord in great measure if not entirely, I venture to say that what little good the Marketing Acts have done for agriculture is mainly due to the control of imports which was not in the original Act, but was put in by the present Government. There has been, I think, a change of heart in the policy of noble Lords opposite in respect of agriculture. As I came up in the train I had the pleasure of reading the latest pamphlet brought out by the Socialist Party with regard to agriculture, and, if I might, I would like to congratulate the noble Lord opposite most heartily on one of the best bits of propaganda that I have ever read. I believe he had a very great part in it; I saw a very excellent picture of him in it; and he has quoted from it just now. I think it is quite excellent. As I read it, and I read it with great interest, I should say that the allusions to grass lands made to-day are really a shoddy dream in comparison to the state of agriculture under the next Socialist Government. Profits are not only going to be enormous for farmers, but they are going to be certain and safeguarded, and the price of food is going down to practically nothing. How is all this going to be done? It is perfectly simple and easy. It is going to be done by the wave of a wand. And what is that wand? That wand is nationalisation.
If I might make the slightest criticism, I would have been better pleased if the noble Lord had said in this work, or indeed in his speech to-day, why it was that nationalisation of the land is going to effect all these benefits. He says nothing of the sort. Indeed in this pamphlet he carries the process of negation even further, because he says if you will look
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at the land nationalised to-day, the land under the county councils—the biggest landlords in England I think he said—you will see that that state of things already exists. May I suggest to him with the greatest humility that that statement probably requires a little revision, because I think every boy in the country knows that the wages on these nationalised lands are exactly the same as those on the farms which are in private ownership, and there are a great many people who know that on the whole the rents are a little bit higher and that the losses, the inevitable losses—that is to say, the difference between the interest on the money which purchased them and the return they make—is made good out of the pockets of the ratepayers and the taxpayers? A little revision in the next edition is perhaps desirable there.
I personally think that the National Government are to be congratulated on two things. I am well aware of the use that is made of the word "intentions," but I still think their intentions have been from start to finish admirable. I would go further than that, and I would say that their acts have been good. At all events it would not be denied, even I think by noble Lords opposite, that no Government has produced so many measures intended to be for the good of the agricultural industry as this Government. I must, however, agree with the noble Lord opposite that the results have been eminently disappointing, and it is true to say that at the present time the position of agriculture is as bad as I ever recollect it to be. I must, I am sorry to say, agree with the noble Lord there. I believe that the Ministry are suffering under one great delusion; at all events I have heard this in the Ministry. They believe that at the present moment agriculture is in a position to render a greater service to the nation in the event of war than was the case in 1914. I venture to think that the sooner they rid themselves of that delusion the better. I am not going into a great mass of figures because they have already been traversed in a most admirable way, but I will just give four reasons in support of what I have already been saying that agriculture is not so ready and not so able to help the country in the hour of war as it was in 1914.
One is that we have lost land. During the last ten years land has been lost to

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the nation at the rate of over 6o,000 acres a year—that is to say, approximately speaking, in this small island a hundred square miles of land has been lost every year. It has been lost in building, in roads, in aerodromes. I have no doubt most of them were absolutely necessary, but the land has been lost nevertheless. Since 1914 arable land has gone down by 2,000,000 acres, as has been pointed out. Another thing which has not been pointed out is that there are far fewer horses to work the land than there were in 1914. No doubt it will be said, it has been said, "Oh, tractors will take their place." When the next war breaks out petrol and oil will be at a premium. You can recall what they were in the last War. With the great increase in aeroplanes there will be still more call for petrol and oil, and if our horses have all gone we shall be hard put indeed to plough up the soil which will inevitably have to be ploughed. It is only too true that since 1914 we have lost 200,000 of our skilled men from agriculture, men who cannot be replaced, no, not in a day or a month or a year or many years. I am entirely with the noble Lord opposite when he points out that that is deplorable and dreadful and dangerous.
I read the Sunday before last the speech of the Prime Minister as reported in several forms by organs of different political leaning, and my first reaction was a feeling rather of consternation. I thought that the Prime Minister had been convinced by what I call the "blue water school." As I understand the theory of the "blue water school" it is this. When the next war comes the future and safety of this country will depend entirely on the ability of the Navy to keep our trade routes open. We believe we can do it now. We believe we are in a much stronger position to overcome the submarine menace; but if we cannot that is the end of Great Britain, and it will be no use prolonging the suffering by having a certain amount more of food to eat. I hope those people who say that, and they are a very large number of people, are right about their prognostications with regard to the protection of our sea routes. I sometimes wonder whether they have taken fully into account the enormous increase in aeroplanes and the
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number of bombs that these are able to drop, but I am not in a position to judge as to that.
I agree, however, in the main with what they say. Where I fail to agree is in the conclusion drawn. I do not say "therefore it is no good doing anything about agriculture." I say our Navy must be supreme and we must keep the trade routes open, and, therefore, we must have a better production of food in this land, a better agriculture, so that we can spare for our fighting Navy some at all events of those cruisers and destroyers and submarines that were used in the last War to protect our trade routes. I feel that every increase of wheat here, every increase of meat on a certain scale, is going to release one more war vessel to keep the command of the sea and to save our homes from being violated. Thus it is that I find myself in disagreement with the conclusion that is drawn from the theory of what I call the "blue water school."
What, in fine, I feel about the Prime Minister's speech is this. If he means—and this we shall be told—that it is not right at the present time to put the agriculture of this country on a war time footing, to plough up playing fields, to plough up old and beautiful pastures, to plough up parks, but that he intends by every means in his power to increase the productivity of our land, to put up wages, to allow to the farmer farming reasonably a real chance of a reasonable profit, as the noble Lord opposite said, I agree with him. But if it is the intention of His Majesty's Government by their agricultural policy just to keep agriculture alive in suspended animation like the Sleeping Beauty to be roused in the event of war by a kiss from the Minister of Agriculture supplemented no doubt by the Secretary to the Board, then I do not agree with the policy of His Majesty's Government.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM): My Lords, I am sure I shall be voicing the opinion of those members of your Lordships' House who have had the opportunity of listening to this debate when I say that we have heard from the noble Lord the mover of this Motion a speech of deep thought and

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study which was particularly distinguished for its subtle propaganda on behalf of the Labour Party. There can be no doubt whatsoever that there are a great number of your Lordships—I myself am one—who deplore certain aspects of the present state of our agricultural industry. I particularly refer to the land continuing to go out of cultivation and of labour continuing to be withdrawn from agricultural occupations into other directions. The Government are as conscious of these problems as any other section of the community. What we would have very greatly appreciated, and what would have been of great advantage to the Government and indeed to all those deeply interested in agriculture, would have been to hear more from the noble Lord of the policy by which the Labour Party would manage to solve some of the problems which he says we have been so unsuccessful in solving.
The noble Lord, Lord Addison, has passed a strong indictment upon the policy of His Majesty's Government for agriculture, and in particular upon the Prime Minister's statement of that policy in his speech at Kettering a week ago last Saturday, on the ground that that policy makes no contribution to defence. I believe that there is a sound answer to the criticisms that the noble Lord has made in this respect, and the noble Lord has himself realised that certain of those criticisms have been met in the statement that was issued after the Prime Minister had interviewed certain members of another place. The noble Lord said that the Prime Minister's speech at Kettering was a frank, manly speech, and naturally I would be the first to concur in that opinion. But there has been great misrepresentation of what the Prime Minister actually did say. The fundamental fact that should be appreciated with regard to this problem, as both the noble Lord, Lord Addison, and tie noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, have already pointed out, is that this country owing to its situation cannot be entirely self-sufficient in food supplies, whatever steps we may take. As your Lordships are no doubt aware, we are to-day importing 77 per cent. of our wheat, about 5o per cent. of our meat, and 90 per cent. of our butter. These figures could, of course, be lowered, but I believe that the majority of people appreciate that they could not be brought down to nothing.
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Here I may be expressing what the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, called the view of the blue water school, but whether it be the opinion of that school or the opinion of those who have made exhaustive inquiries into our food supply in time of emergency, there can be no doubt that we must depend on supplies of food from abroad. In other words, the command of the seas is as vital to the interests of this country to-day as it has ever been in the course of the whole of our history. We cannot contemplate losing that command of the seas and it would give a very unfavourable impression to certain countries abroad if it were thought to be accepted by the thinking people of this country that there should be great extension of our agriculture because we can no longer count on retaining the command of the seas. If that command of the seas is necessary, it is obviously not in the national interest to divert the natural processes of agricultural operations to the point of causing uneconomic dislocation in farming.
The statement issued by the Prime Minister to members of another place should have made it clear that there is in fact no foundation for the suggestion that there has been a change of policy on the part of the Government with regard to agriculture. But it was also made clear in that statement that the Government had no intention of embarking on a spectacular policy of artificial expansion of home production. The Government are convinced that any plans for agriculture, however attractive they may be at first sight, would be excessively misleading and dangerous in practice unless they could form part of a sound permanent policy for agriculture. All those of us who are engaged in a practical manner in farming operations agree that the one thing that the farmer regards as absolutely necessary is some degree of certainty both as to the manner of working, under the heading of farm economy, and the level of prices that he is likely to get for the crops and the livestock that he produces. If this is going to be effective, not for to-morrow or the next day, but under what can accurately be termed a permanent policy, the Government must necessarily encourage the development of agriculture upon its own natural lines, and do what can reasonably be done to improve farmers' returns.

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It is not that permanent policy that is criticised by the agricultural community to-day so much as whether the application of that policy has been successful. With your Lordships' permission, I shall refer to that in a few moments. This policy has been adopted by His Majesty's Government in the faith that, as a result of greater prosperity, land will be better utilised and farmed, and farmers will be stimulated to improve their methods. I believe that your Lordships will also be aware that the statement to which I have referred has disposed of the notion that Government policy was directed to restricting production. It said that efforts were being made to increase production where that could reasonably be done. That is where the Government join issue with the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Addison, and in some respects with those of the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth. Lord Addison suggests that the Government should undertake a ploughing-up campaign of grass land, and in support of that contention he points to the large decreases that there have been in arable cultivation since the beginning of the century. He has informed the House that in six years 538,000 acres have gone out of arable cultivation, and he says that labour has consequently been withdrawn from the cultivation of the land by 60,000 in the last six or seven years. I do not dispute those figures. In fact, I would say that the noble Lord's figure of 60,000 could more accurately be given as 66,000 in the year that he is quoting.
LORD ADDISON: That is right.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: But why has this taken place? There are, as the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, says, some very good reasons for the decrease we have seen in arable cultivation. First, the noble Lord has informed the House that the reduction in arable cultivation is largely in respect of the oats and barley crop and not of the wheat acreage, and that is largely due to the reduction in the number of horses and the quantity of oats required. The number of horses has decreased by more than a third since the year 1913. Another reason is that, under the conditions of the last few years, it has obviously been very attractive for farmers to buy cheap imported feeding stuffs rather than to grow them themselves. I should say here that I entirely
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agree with the noble Lord that it would be a good thing to arrest this tendency away from arable cultivation, and it would seem at first sight as if the suggestion made by the noble Lord was a simple and easy solution. But if we examine them we find some very real difficulties. If great quantities of the existing grass area were to be ploughed up we should, of course, be able to get an increase of home-grown arable crops. But it would be a great mistake to suppose that our dependence upon imports would be reduced by a like amount, for in any case we should lose the grass or the hay from the area brought under the plough, and further, we should lose some of the livestock from the grass areas.
LORD ADDISON: May I interrupt the noble Earl?
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: May I just substantiate that remark? United Kingdom agriculture produces a current net food output of approximately £240,000,000 a year. It carries a reserve of food in the shape of livestock, including pigs and poultry, to a value of approximately £170,000,000. My point is that clearly, on the merits of our own agricultural system as it is at present organised, there exists a reserve of food which is of no mean proportion, and this livestock reserve is constantly being turned over. It incurs no storage charges, it contributes to land fertility, and it in no way interferes with the normal farming practice.
Even if the arable acreage were increased on the same scale as in the last War, it has been calculated that only an additional 2,700,000 tons of wheat could be produced, and that is on the supposition that the whole area would be devoted to the wheat crop. Your Lordships will recall that in the last War the figure which the noble Lord, Lord Addison, quoted which was put under arable cultivation also included parts of Ireland which are now inaccessible.
LORD ADDISON: My figures related entirely to Great Britain.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: That amount is barely half the average imports info this country in a normal year; so that even a campaign of this kind would not by any means bring us within sight of self-sufficiency. Any attempt to make this country a pre-eminently cereal-growing country would mean to divert our

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agriculture from its natural line of development, for which our soil and climate are best suited. It does not need any emphasis from me, because it has already been expressed in this debate this afternoon, that livestock is traditionally the main variety of farming in this country, and it has during the course of generations become so proficient that, as Lord Addison himself remarked, this country is the market, the world over, for buying the best breeds of cattle, sheep and pigs. Steps have been taken under the Wheat Act of 1932, and also under the Agriculture Act by means of the oats and barley subsidy scheme inaugurated last year, to redress this tendency for agricultural land to go out of cultivation, and I think it is worth adding that the home production of fodder crops is to-day being stimulated by the subsidy on lime and basic slag, administered by the Land Fertility Committee, over which Lord Cranworth presides, and by the grass land and improvement campaign.
Another suggestion that was included in the speech of the noble Lord is the cultivation of the marginal and derelict lands of this country. I can well understand the almost instinctive feeling that land should not be allowed to become derelict.
LORD ADDISON: May I interrupt the noble Earl? I did not say 10,000,000 acres, which is the figure given for land which the noble Lord has described. I deliberately cut the figure in halves, and I said 5,000,000 acres. I do not want to be misrepresented as referring to it all. I only spoke of half of it.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: But I still understand the noble Lord to raise the question of what we call marginal and derelict lands. Of course it is not open to dispute that substantial intensification of production is technically possible. No doubt it could be put into force on a large scale if this country were prepared to adopt measures of the type employed elsewhere in the Continent of Europe, particularly by a severe restriction of imports, bringing about a rise in the cost of food which would pay the farmer for the extra cost of intensification of farming on uneconomic land. But I should like to put this question to Lord Addison. Who would foot the Bill in such a scheme? Either, it seems, it must be the consumer, through an increase of food prices, or it
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must be the taxpayer, by a heavy subsidy. The first of those alternatives would, I understand, hardly commend itself to the noble Lord opposite, and as to the second, the difficulties of increasing the burden of the Budget at the present time, when the rearmament programme is so closely before the public, are such that it would hardly commend itself to noble Lords behind me. Having said that, I will add that of course much can be and is being done to improve individual farms at the present time, but this, like any scheme of development, must largely depend upon the extent to which the industry has the will and ability to co-operate in the plan.
I would suggest that the real solution of Lord Addison for all the problems which have been mentioned is the nationalisation of farming land, upon which the noble Lord did just touch in the concluding remarks of his speech and to which Lord Cranworth devoted the greater part of his remarks. This is a fundamental issue of principle, on which the noble Lord and I start from different premises and arrive at completely different conclusions. We see what this would mean in practice by glancing at the manifesto to which my noble friend Lord Cranworth has referred. What do we see from this manifesto? We see the outline of a grandiose scheme of committees and bodies for the control of prices and supplies, leading eventually to the full nationalisation of the land. Bureaucratic control is substituted for individual management and there seems to be throughout an assumption that the farmer needs to be told how to farm.
I need not remind the House that this manifesto mentions, as the noble Lord did in his speech as one of the three essential points, that there should be reliability and fairness of price in order to encourage the cultivator to make proper use of his land. The noble Lord will recall better than I, for at that time he was a member of the Government, the events that followed the Corn Production Act. Under that Act a guaranteed price was given to the farmer, but owing to the change of political wind that Act was repealed and that price was no longer guaranteed. The farmer still recalls the damage that was done to his farm economy, he is still apprehensive of Government measures because he feels that any reliance upon a guaranteed price is

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apt to have the same results as it did in the case of that particular Act. And yet we see in the policy advocated by the Party of the noble Lord opposite that the only means whereby the second essential point that he has mentioned can be secured is a guaranteed price.
I do not believe that the agricultural problem can be simply solved by laying down a guaranteed price under all circumstances, taking into account our trade with the Dominions and foreign countries. If that were the case the bill might be so large that the resources of the country could not meet it. That is especially so when one contemplates the other policies that the Party of the noble Lord means to bring into operation directly it comes into power—for example, great extensions of the social services, which would surely mean for agriculture a scramble for the sums which it is suggested in the manifesto will be devoted to it. All these schemes of the noble Lord, as contained in the manifesto, mean a very big disturbance of the present system. Vast changes would be made overnight, and that in an industry which perhaps is the least adapted of all industries for drastic measures of that sort.
But, apart from any objections of principle, I have grave doubts whether the results would be anything like those anticipated by the noble Lord. The Government's policy, on the other hand, seeks to leave the farmer in full control of his own enterprise, while making available to him, by education and by propaganda, avenues for improvement. The vast store of traditional knowledge of any given farm, which is necessarily handed down from one occupier to another, and is assumed to be in the possession of the existing tenant is, under the policy of the Government, brought into full operation and use. I believe that if the policy advocated by this manifesto were to be carried into effect that store of knowledge would immediately be lost. The noble Lord, Lord Addison, has said that the policy of the Government is to-day the policy of a city man, that it is the policy of the city. I am myself a farmer and a man of the land, but, speaking as a representative of that section of the community, it would in my view be the very greatest error for agriculturists in Britain not to realise that we are essentially a country of cities,
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that we have a population of which 90 per cent. is dependent upon industrial occupations. If that be the case, in order to fulfil the functions of a Government and view the interests of all sections of the community, there must necessarily be a city aspect to the formulation of agricultural policy.
Our agricultural policy in peace time must surely be considered against the general political and economic background. If it is to be framed with full regard to the interests of the country there are certain fundamental principles which must be observed and which nothing except war itself would justify us in departing from. Perhaps I may briefly enumerate what those fundamental principles are. There must be no unreasonable disturbance of the existing organisation of agriculture; there must be no unreasonable disturbance in the cost of food to the consumer; and there must be no unreasonable disturbance in our relations with other countries. It is on those three principles that the Government's policy is founded. Perhaps I might in conclusion mention some of the results of this policy and reply to one of the points raised in the course of the debate. I would admit that in many ways the Government have very similar objectives to those of the noble Lord. We believe in increasing the consumption of food, giving farmers a reasonable profit, and in expanding home resources on a reasonable scale. But there is a vital difference in method. I hope I am not pressing the point too far in saying that we believe in evolution and the noble Lord believes in revolution.
LORD ADDISON: No.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: But I think it is important to recognise that we want to assist agriculture upon what we term its natural lines. An important place in the programme that has been brought into operation during the last few years is given to efficiency measures and the reduction of costs. The Livestock Act of last year was a big step in the direction of marketing efficiency for livestock, both in the procedure by which markets could be rationalised under the Livestock Commission and the experiments in slaughtering whereby we could compete with greater advantage with Argentine producers in slaughtering methods. The Bacon Industry Bill,

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which was before your Lordships' House yesterday, has also much to say about efficiency, and the reduction of farmers' costs is perhaps the keynote of the Agriculture Act which was passed last July, with its provisions for increased fertility of the soil, healthier herds through the country, and better drainage.
Turning to the commodity measures, the arable areas have had the advantage of the Wheat Act, of the sugar beet subsidy, and the oats and barley scheme, as well as an import duty on foreign oats. The production of fruit and vegetables has been expanded under the shelter of the Customs Duties, and the milk industry has received considerable assistance under the Acts of 1934 and 1937, which assistance is now to be extended for a further year. Largely as a result of the encouragement given, we can point to a very substantial increase in the production of certain commodities in the year 1936 as compared with 1930. For instance, the production of wheat has increased from 1,100,000 tons to nearly 1,500,000 tons, and your Lordships will be aware that under the Agriculture Act of last year the limit of quantity for the guaranteed price under the Wheat Act was raised to 1,800,000 tons. There has also been a remarkable increase in the production of pigs for bacon. Your Lordships will recall that between the years 1930 and 1936 the pig production of this country nearly doubled itself, and other commodities in which there have been increases are beef, mutton, milk, fruit, vegetables, eggs, and poultry. On the other hand, it must be realised, as the noble Lord has said, that oats, barley, and fodder crops have decreased. As I have pointed out, in the crisis conditions of a few years ago farmers found it very attractive to buy foreign supplies of feeding stocks rather than produce their own.
To sum up, the Government's policy is to assist the farmers of this country, commodity by commodity, and enable them to assist themselves. The underlying consideration behind it has been, naturally, the expansion of trade externally and the betterment of conditions generally in internal affairs. The noble Lord has mentioned that at the present time the wage rates of agricultural labourers are higher than they have ever been since the Agricultural Wages Board
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has been in operation. I am the first to recognise that much of the trouble in respect of labour going off the land is due to the discrepancy that exists between the agricultural labourer's wage and the industrial wage. The basis upon which that wage can be increased is surely to provide, by such means as are feasible, an increased return to the farmer so that he himself, without disorganisation or disruption of the industry, can pay a higher remuneration to the labour that he employs.
Let me say in answer to the main burden of the argument of the noble Lord in raising this Motion that, with the exception of butter, barley, peas, and to a slight extent beef and mutton, we are today producing a larger percentage of our total requirements from home sources than in pre-War days. That is some compensation for the acreage that has gone out of cultivation and for the men who have gone off the land, and it is especially valuable when agricultural policy is related to measures of defence. I feel that I owe an apology to the noble Lord, Lord Addison, that in spite of making a very long reply I have not dealt with all the questions he raised in his most interesting speech. Nevertheless, I hope I have at least succeeded in pointing out some of the main difficulties in the way of complying with common and popular appeal for greater activity on the part of the Government in re-cultivating derelict areas, and for a comprehensive scheme for the improvement of agriculture, which, on the existing economic basis of this country, cannot be brought about as rapidly as most agriculturists would desire.
LORD ELTISLEY: My Lords, I desire to add one or two words only, if I may be permitted, in support of what the noble Earl has said. In doing so I make no excuse, because we all realise that agriculture is undoubtedly the primary productive industry in this country, and therefore it is essential that the welfare of that industry should be one of our paramount considerations. May I thank the noble Lord for introducing this subject? I am somewhat amazed at the discomfort in which he must be sitting on the other side of the House because, from the opinions he expressed in regard to agriculture, I am sure he would be

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more happily situated were he to come over to this side of the House.
He referred to the Kettering speech made by the Prime Minister, but he did not add one word of what the charge or change is. He did not suggest that there was any charge to make, and I suggest that no change has been made in the agricultural policy of His Majesty's Government. There has been much criticism, and much has been written in the newspapers, but if one examines the statement made at Kettering it will be clear that no actual change in policy has been suggested or is contemplated. With all respect, I would say that no Government has done half as much for the industry of agriculture as has the Government of this country during the past few years. I need not weary the House with a catalogue of what has been done—matters such as derating assistance, the milk and sugar marketing schemes, and the great fertilisation policy so ably carried out by the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, during the last two years, the full results of which we shall not glean for another year or two.
The noble Lord postulated two or three conditions for taking certain action, but to the most important of all he did not give expression. I suggest that there are two things, and two things only, which will bring about the re-establishment of agriculture on a firm and prosperous basis. First of all, adequate markets—markets which will always take the full produce which the farmer is able to put on to those markets—and, secondly, the certainty that in those adequate markets the farmer shall be able to obtain a fair price for his produce. So soon, and not before, as the farmer is able to obtain an adequate and open market for his produce and a reasonable price for
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that produce, will agriculture become prosperous in this country.
A suggestion was made in respect of nationalisation. I venture to say there can be little, there can be nothing in that policy. There can be nothing in having well paid officials marching about over the land of the farmer and telling him what to do and how to do it. We owe a great deal to officials; we owe a great debt to Whitehall; but their job is not in the fields of England; their job is in Whitehall. When the suggestion of nationalisation is made, I submit that there is no substance whatever in it, and that nothing can be done in that direction to help our agriculture. But there is one thing that the Government have failed to do to which I would like to refer, and that is in respect to milk. They promised to increase the premiums for the quality of milk, and they are now proposing to put off implementing that promise until next year. I hope they will reconsider that matter, for whatever promise as to future assistance they may make they may not be in a position to implement it. I think it will be in the best interests of the milk industry as a whole if the Government would take steps, however inconvenient that may be, to implement that policy and give premiums for quality milk.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships except to say that I am glad this discussion has brought forth the speeches to which we have listened, and that I welcome the advertisement of the little pamphlet which the noble Lord, Lord Cranworth, has quite properly given it. I hope it will continue to receive the attention it deserves. I beg to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at thirteen minutes past seven o'clock.

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Bucks Water Board),

West Hartlepool Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order,

Ipswich Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order,

Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order,

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (Plymouth).

Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cirencester),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Wath upon Dearne),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Church Stretton),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Horsforth),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Llandrindod Wells),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Rawmarsh),

West Midlands Joint Electricity Authority Provisional Order.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL (SEWERAGE) BILL.
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The Orders made on the 7th instant discharged, and Bill committed for Tuesday next.
NEWCASTLE AND GATESHEAD WATERWORKS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.