Sitting of 18 November 1937

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  EMPIRE EXHIBITION (SCOTLAND) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to the Empire Exhibition (Scotland), "presented by Mr. Elliot; read the First time; and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Friday, 26th November, and to be printed. [Bill 47.]
  HAMILTON BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Hamilton Burgh, "presented by Mr. Elliot; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 48.]
  RUTHERGLEN BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Rutherglen Burgh," presented by Mr. Elliot; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 49.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    ASSISTANCE.
    Mr. F. Andersonasked the Minister of Labour how many persons are receiving assistance and payment from the Unemployment Assistance Board due to their suffering from silicosis in the districts of Whitehaven, Cleator Moor, Egremont, and Millom areas; and what were the amounts paid out during the last 12 months?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I regret that information is not available as to the number of persons who though capable of work and in receipt of unemployment assistance are suffering from silicosis.
    Mr. Shortasked the Minister of Labour whether he will inquire why certain unemployed men who were offered and accepted work on the by-pass road at Hampole, near Adwick-le-Street. Doncaster, were refused the supply of suitable boots by the Unemployment Assistance Board?
    Mr. Brown: I am informed by the Unemployment Assistance Board that the two men who, I understand, are referred to in the hon. Member's question started work on Monday, 11th October. Application for a special grant was made late on the previous Friday. The case was not one in which the Board's officer would have felt justified in making a grant, but before the necessary inquiries could be completed the men had obtained what they required from another source and had commenced full-time employment.
    Mr. Short: Is the Minister aware that the men purchased the boots themselves out of their rent?
    Mr. J. J. Davidsonasked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed persons in Glasgow that have suffered reductions since the standstill allowances were departed from, and the total amount of such reductions?
    Mr. Brown: In the Unemployment Assistance Board's administrative district of Glasgow I, there were on 17th September last 1,346 applicants receiving allowances which has been reduced by way of adjustment of standstill arrangements, otherwise than on account of personal earnings, the average reduction in those cases is estimated to have been approximately 2s. a week.
    Mr. Davidson: May I ask the Minister to take note that in the question I asked him to give the total amount of such reductions?
    Mr. Brown: I cannot. I have given the hon. Member what figures I have on this matter.
    Mr. Davidson: Have not those reductions been increasing in number during

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    the past three months, and how long does the Minister think it will take before the estimate of £40,000 for public assistance for the unemployed of Glasgow will be reached?
    Mr. Brown: I must not be taken for one second as accepting that estimate. Perhaps the hon. Member would like to put down a comprehensive question asking for the results in terms of increases and decreases. There would then, I think, be a very different story to tell.
    Mr. Lawson: Cannot the Minister give us the total amount of the reductions, and not the average reduction?
    Mr. Brown: I do not think it could be done without an undue amount of labour. There were 1,346 applicants on 17th September. I have given the average amount, and hon. Members can work it out for themselves.
    Mr. Davidson: The Minister stated the figure of 2s. per person; how can he strike the average if he does not know the total?
    Mr. Brown: Because I know the class of case.
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour the total number of applications made by recipients of unemployment assistance for increases in their allowances in consequence of the increased cost of living; how many such applications have been granted and how many rejected; what is the average increase granted in the amount of the allowance; and what is the aggregate amount of such weekly increases?
    Mr. Brown: The instruction issued by the Unemployment Assistance Board to which I referred in my reply to the hon. Member on 21st October requires that all cases on the Board's register shall be considered as they fall due for review, and the determinations adjusted where the circumstances warrant. Separate applications by individuals are, therefore, not necessary, and no information is available as to the extent to which such applications have, in fact, been made. The task of reviewing cases for the first time after issue of the Board's instruction is in progress, and statistics of the kind referred to in the last part of the hon. Member's question are not yet available.
    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that applicants for unemployment assistance at Talgarth, Breconshire, are made subject to a reduction of 2s. per week on the ground that it is a rural area; that rents and prices at Talgarth approximate more to an industrial than a rural area, and whether he will make representations to the Unemployment Assistance Board on the matter; that the nearest area office of the board is 25 miles distant from Talgarth; and whether he will take steps to establish an office nearer to this district?
    Mr. Brown: These adjustments have been made after consideration of recommendations by the local advisory committee. It is open to any applicant who is aggrieved by a decision in his case to lodge an appeal with the Appeal Tribunal, and I understand that one of the 12 applicants at Talgarth, affected by these adjustments, has exercised this right. With regard to the last part of the question, in view of the very small number of applicants in and around Talgarth the Board do not see their way to establish an office in the neighbourhood. All applicants in the area are visited regularly in their homes by a local officer of the Board, they apply for allowances and sign the register at a local office of the Ministry, and receive payment of their allowances by post. The Board see no reason to suppose that the interests of the applicants are in any way prejudiced by the present arrangements.
    Mr. Griffiths: Before an area like Talgarth is scheduled as a rural area for the purposes of unemployment policy, is close investigation made into the rents that are paid, and will the right hon. Gentleman make such inquiries to discover whether the rents and other payments in Talgarth are upon a rural standard, or whether they approximate more closely to an industrial standard?
    Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member cares to discuss the matter with me, I will give him information to show that the problem was discussed by the advisory committee.
    Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Labour the number of insured persons receiving statutory benefit and who, in addition, have qualified on needs for payments from the Unemployment Assistance Board, with separate figures for England and Wales, Scotland and Glasgow?
    Mr. Brown: In the week ended 29th October, 1937, allowances from the Unemployment Assistance Board in supplementation of payments of unemployment insurance benefit were paid to 3,320 persons in Great Britain including 3,177 in England and Wales, 143 in Scotland and 57 in Glasgow.
    Mr. Leonard: Does the Minister consider that persons drawing statutory benefit are sufficiently aware that they can apply for supplementary benefit?
    Mr. Brown: This question will help to widen the area of knowledge.
    Mr. Leonard: Could the Minister not give it publicity throughout the medium of the Employment Exchanges in order to make it more prominent?
    Mr. Brown: I think the facts are well-known.
    Mr. T. Smithasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in receipt of allowances from the Unemployment Assistance Board in the district covered by the Pontefract area office at the latest date available, and the comparative figures for 1936?
    Mr. Brown: During the week ended 29th October, 1937, 2,660 payments of unemployment assistance allowances (excluding payments in supplementation of insurance benefit) were made at the Employment Exchanges serving the district covered by the Pontefract area office. The corresponding figure for the week ended 30th October, 1936, was 4,230.
    Mr. Neil Macleanasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that officials of the Unemployment Assistance Board in Glasgow are refusing to recognise women who are legally separated from their husbands as being dependants eligible for inclusion in the husband's unemployment assistance allowance, even when the women have obtained a court order for maintenance against their husband; whether he will state the clause of the Act, regulation, circular, or instruction issued by the Board which authorises such treatment; and whether, in view of the additional cost which this practice places upon the local authorities, he will take steps to have this matter altered?
    Mr. Brown: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon.
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    Member for Blaydon (Mr. Whiteley) on 22nd July last, of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Maclean: Is it the intention to carry on this practice, seeing that it throws added responsibility and expense upon the local authorities?
    Mr. Brown: I expressed my view on that point in the answer to which I have referred the hon. Member.
    Mr. Macleanasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that P. Kelly, 44, Harmony Road, Govan, was entitled to three days Unemployment Assistance Board's allowance in respect of the pay week in which he became 65 years of age; that the local Unemployment Assistance Board officials calculated his weekly allowance as covering seven days and paid him only three-sevenths of the allowance for the week instead of one-half; whether this method is generally adopted in similar cases; and whether he will arrange that the allowances be calculated on a six-day week in conformity with payments made to those on standard unemployment?
    Mr. Brown: I am informed by the Unemployment Assistance Board that inquiry is being made. I will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.
    Mr. Maclean: Why should inquiry be made when this question is based upon a reply received from the area committee of the Unemployment Assistance Board in Govan to the effect that this is actually being done? If the Minister himself does not know that seven days are worked out in order to allocate the allowance, he ought to know, without requiring to ask the Board for the information. I ask for an answer to my question now as to whether this is not actually happening?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member may ask for an answer now, but I have told him that I am making inquiry. When he raises this point, it is the proper course for the Minister to have the matter reexamined in the light of the question which has been put down.
    Mr. Gallacher: Does not the Minister know that the period taken into consideration should be six days, and not seven?
    Mr. Brown: We will see what the facts are.
    Mr. Maclean: On a point of Order. I understand that regulations were brought in and discussed and passed by this House, setting out the manner in which these things should be done; and, seeing that the Minister has been in office for some years, ought he not to know the method by which this allowance is being applied, and whether the period is six days or seven days?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a question for me to answer.
    Mr. Joelasked the Minister of Labour whether he will take steps to secure that in cases of re-employment of a man on casual work, his first week's salary shall be omitted from consideration in any subsequent assessment of means by the public assistance authority concerned?
    Mr. Brown: I understand that the form of casual employment which my hon. Friend has in mind is employment as polling clerk. So far as public assistance is concerned, my hon. Friend should address his question to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. As regards unemployment assistance, the Board inform me that their practice in such cases is to allow the applicant 10s. or one-half of his earnings (whichever is the greater) for personal requirements. This is more than is normally allowed in respect of casual employment, and the Board do not see their way to make a further relaxation.

    SCOTLAND.
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Minister of Labour the total number of registered unemployed in Scotland for the years ended March, 1930, and 1937, respectively?
    Mr. E. Brown: The numbers of unemployed persons, aged 14 and over, on the registers of employment exchanges in Scotland were 218,251 at 24th March, 1930, and 269,351 at 15th March, 1937.
    Mr. Davidson: Is the Minister satisfied with these figures in view of the fact that this Government have been in office practically all that time?
    Mr. Brown: Of course I am not satisfied with these figures, but when the hon. Member asked another question, namely, what the figure was—[Interruption.] I was asked about my satisfaction, and I am giving an answer, as I always try to
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    do. If the hon. Member will look at 1931, he will find the figure was 344,838 after a year of Labour Government.
    Mr. Davidson: If I ask another question in regard to the increase in Poor Law relief in Scotland shall I get an adequate reply?
    Mr. Brown: Certainly you will. You always get an adequate reply from me.

    ASSISTANCE BOARD (ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS).
    Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Labour the cost of administration of the Unemployment Assistance Board, and its percenatge to the total cost of unemployment assistance?
    Mr. E. Brown: The cost of administration of the Unemployment Assistance Board during the year ended 31st March, 1937, was £4,387,000, including about £2,750,000 in respect of the cost of services rendered by the Ministry of Labour and other Government Departments. This represents about 11.7 per cent. of the amount of £37,459,000 paid out by way of unemployment allowances or 10.5 per cent. of the total cost of unemployment assistance.
    Mr. Leonard: Will the Minister inquire into the administrative costs of the Unemployment Assistance Board, in view of the fact that the administrative costs of public assistance throughout the country average about 4 or 4½ per cent.?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows that in the majority of cases there is not, under public assistance, the personal visitation and care that there is under the Board.
    Mr. Graham White: Can the Minister say why, the administrative costs of the Board are nearly double, while the number of cases to be dealt with is only half what it was when the scheme was initiated?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member knows that this is a service of a specialised character which has been increasingly developed in the country, as the best method this country has ever known of dealing with the difficult problem of the able-bodied unemployed person who has not worked for a long time.
    Mr. Leonard: In view of the other figures of the number of people found without means of support, does not the Minister think that this is very high?
    Mr. Brown: I could not accept that suggestion.
    Mr. Lawson: Is not this an excessive cost having regard to the remarkably small amount saved, and does he think it is worth while chasing these poor men about for this?
    Mr. Brown: That is a matter for debate. I do not accept that point of view at all.
    Mr. Herbert Morrison: Is not the Minister aware that public assistance authorities do a great deal of personal investigation—are indeed, required to do so by the Minister of Health—and will not the Minister make such inquiries as will show whether his Department and the Unemployment Assistance Board are not unduly extravagant in administrative costs?
    Mr. Brown: I do not believe that is so. The right hon. Gentleman will notice that I used very careful words there. Some public assistance authorities do a good deal of personal investigation, but anyone who takes the field as a whole will agree with my conclusions that the Board's system of personal investigation is by far the most economical that has ever been devised.

    BENEFIT (HOLIDAY PAY)
    Mr. Hollinsasked the Minister of Labour (r) whether he is aware that there is much ambiguity and variation in the Umpire's decisions with regard to holiday pay and its effect on claims for unemployment benefit; and whether he will make an investigation into these decisions with a view to clarifying them and making them more uniform where the cases are similar in character;
    (2) whether he is aware that: a number of cases of hardship have arisen out of, the payment of holiday money to the operatives in the pottery industry; whether he will consider amending the employment exchange regulations with regard to the continuity of signatures and the 12-days' rule, so as not to preclude recipients of holiday pay from the advantages of the above regulations; and whether he will consider the issuing of
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    regulations to the effect that unemployment benefit should only be suspended pro rata with the amount of holiday pay received for the holiday period?
    Mr. E. Brown: I cannot agree that there is any ambiguity or lack of consistency in the Umpires' decisions on this subject, nor can I interfere with them in any way. It is true, however, that, largely owing to the absence of express statutory provisions on the subject, the details of this law are somewhat complicated. The matter cannot be dealt with by regulations, and it may become necessary in due course to propose some legislative enactment; but this cannot usefully be done before the Committee considering the question of holidays with pay has made its report.

    UNEMPLOYMENT FUND (SURPLUS).
    Mr. George Hallasked the Minister of Labour whether in view of the large surplus in the Unemployment Insurance Fund, he will take action to distribute a portion of the surplus in the very near future?
    Mr. E. Brown: The Unemployment Fund has a large balance in hand, but I would remind the hon. Member that over £50,000,000 is required as reserves, and cannot properly be described as a surplus. The amount of any disposable surplus in the fund will not be known until the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee present their report upon the financial condition of the fund as at 31st December next.
    Mr. Hall: Does not the Act of 1934 provide that, if the fund is sufficient or more than sufficient to meet the demands upon it, the Committee can consider whether the income is more than sufficient and decide about the surplus?
    Mr. Brown: It is in the interests of the unemployed that the fund should be kept solvent and should be properly administered. The law requires the Committee to present a report before the end of February, 1938. They can, of course, report before that if they so wish, but that is a matter for their judgment, and I cannot interfere.
    Mr. Hall: Will not the Minister make representations to the Committee and ask them to meet, seeing that there is a surplus?
    Mr. Brown: I think that that would be most improper. The Committee are doing their work in an admirable manner.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Is the solvency of the Fund more important than the solvency of the unemployed?
    Mr. Brown: The solvency of the unemployed depends on the solvency of the Fund.
    Mr. Lawson: How is it that the right hon. Gentleman was able to make in advance a statement about the surplus?
    Mr. Brown: I made no statement on the matter except as to figures, which are open for all members of the public to see.
    Mr. Lawson: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman make a statement as to the possible balance?
    Mr. Brown: On a proper occasion, certainly, either inside the House or outside it.

  BRICK INDUSTRY (EMPLOYMENT).
  Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Labour whether he will arrange that in the presentation of the number of persons employed in the brick industry through the Labour Gazette, he will, as in the presentation of details affecting other industries, give the details for Scotland separately?
  Mr. E. Brown: I presume the hon. Member is referring to the statistics for the brick industry, published in the Ministry of Labour Gazette, compiled from returns received each month from certain employers. These statistics do not purport to show the total number of persons employed in the industry, and the number of employers in Scotland who now furnish returns is too small to provide a representative sample. It has, therefore, been necessary to discontinue the publication of separate figures for Scotland, but I am having the matter examined, and I hope that it may be found possible to obtain sufficient returns from other employers in Scotland to enable the publication of such figures to be resumed.

  FAMILY BUDGETS (INQUIRY).
  Mr. Magnayasked the Minister of Labour whether his recent inquiry into the
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  expenditure of working-class households during the week ended 23rd October has been successful in obtaining the number of budgets required?
  Mr. E. Brown: Yes, Sir; I am glad to say that the response to this inquiry has been highly satisfactory. The committee which advised as to the methods to be adopted in the conduct of the inquiry recommended that the Department should endeavour to obtain 10,000 budgets from households of industrial workers, and 1,250 budgets from households of agricultural workers. Over 10,000 budgets have already been obtained from industrial workers, and over 2,400 from agricultural workers, and further budgets are still being received. I take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the very valuable assistance which has been rendered in this matter by the many thousands of households who have supplied information; by large numbers of voluntary helpers who have undertaken the work of visiting the households, distributing the forms and collecting the budgets; by the officers of the Employment Exchange service who have been responsible for organising the inquiries within their districts; and by members of the local committees who have co-operated with those officers in this work. My cordial thanks are also due to the members of the committee which advised and assisted the Department in the preparation of the general plans for the inquiry. As the House knows, budgets are to be collected for three other dates next year, and I feel sure that I shall have equally effective co-operation from all concerned in obtaining these also.
  Mr. Thorne: Now that the Minister has the information with regard to people who are employed, will he be good enough to get the information from the families of unemployed people?
  Mr. Brown: I have answered questions several times on that point. We are acting on the advice of the advisory committee.
  Mr. David Adams: Could we ask the Minister to speak a little more rapidly?

  JOINT INDUSTRIAL COUNCILS.
  Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Labour the names of the industries in which joint industrial councils now

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  exist; the approximate number of employes involved; and what councils have been formed and ceased to exist in the last two years?
  Mr. E. Brown: I will, if I may, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the joint industrial councils in operation according to the latest available information.
  During the last two years three councils have been reconstituted on a wider basis, one council re-established, and three new councils formed, while no councils have been dissolved. I regret I am not in possession of statistics showing the numbers of workpeople involved.
  Mr. Mander: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the total number of these councils?
  Mr. Brown: I have not made up the total. It is a very long schedule. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will do the calculation himself.
  Following is the list:
  JOINT INDUSTRIAL (WHITLEY) COUNCILS.
  I.—INDUSTRIAL GROUP.
  (i) National Joint Industrial Councils.

  Asbestos Manufacturing Industry.

  Bobbin and Shuttle Making Industry.

  Boot and Shoe Manufacturing Industry.

  British Coir Mat and Matting Industry.

  Carpet Industry.

  *Cast Stone and Cast Concrete Products Industry.

  Cement Manufacturing Industry.

  †Chemical Trade.

  Clay Industry.

  Cooperage Industry.

  Dock Labour, National Joint Council for.

  Electrical Cable-Making Industry.

  Electrical Contracting Industry.

  Electricity Supply Industry (also National Joint Board for Technical Staffs).

  Flour Milling Industry.

  Furniture Warehousing and Removing Industry.

  Gas Industry.

  Glove Making Industry.

  Heating and Domestic Engineering.

  Hosiery Trade.

  Lead Manufacturing Industry.

  Lock, Latch and Key Industry.

  Match Manufacturing Industry.

  Metallic Bedstead Industry.

  National Maritime Board.

  Needle, Fishhook, Fishing Tackle and Allied Trades.

  Paint, Colour and Varnish Trades.

  Paper Making Industry.

  Pottery Industry.

  Printing and Allied Trades of the United Kingdom.

  Printing Ink and Roller Making Industry.

  Process Engraving Trade.

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  Quarrying Industry (Five Sectional Councils:

  Lime and Limestone; Granite and Roadstone; Freestone; Slate; Chalk).

  *Seed Crushing and Compound and Provender Manufacturing Industry.

  Silk Industry.

  Soap and Candles Industry.

  *Road Passenger Transport Industry (Tramways, Trolleybuses and Motor Omnibuses).

  Wallpaper Makers Industry.

  Waterworks Undertakings Industry.

  Welsh Plate and Sheet Trade.

  Wool (and Allied) Textile Industry.

  (ii) Interim Industrial Reconstruction Committees.
  Cocoa, Chocolate, Sugar Confectionery and Jam Industry.
  (iii) Section Trade Councils.

  Plastering Trade.

  Plumbing Trade.

  (iv) District Councils.

  Indoor Brewery Workers, Beer Bottlers and Maltsters in the North Midland Area.

  Joint Council of Employers and Employees in Nottingham and District Hosiery Finishing Trades.

  Making-up and Packing of Textiles for Export and Clothworking (London).

  Midland District Council of Hosiery Dyers and Finishers.

  West of Scotland Textile Industry.

  Kidderminster District Council for the Carpet Industry.

  II.—PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION GROUP.
  Civil Service.
  National Council for the Administrative and Legal Departments, with which are associated numerous Departmental Councils.
  Government Departmental Industrial Councils.

  Admiralty.

  Air Ministry.

  His Majesty's Office of Works.

  His Majesty's Stationery Office.

  War Department.

  Government Trade Joint Councils.

  Building

  Engineering.

  Shipbuilding.

  Miscellaneous Trades.

  Co-ordinating Committee for Government Industrial Establishments.

  Local Authorities' Service.

  Local Authorities' Non-Trading Services (Manual Workers) England and Wales (with District Councils).

  ‡Local Authorities' Non-Trading Services (Manual Workers) Scotland.

  ‡Local Authorities' Administrative, Technical and Clerical Services National Joint Council. England and Wales.

  ‡LocaI Authorities' Administrative, Technical and Clerical Services (Scotland).

  Insurance Committees' Administrative, Technical and Clerical Services.

  *Reconstituted Councils.

  †Re-established.

  ‡New Councils.

  FACTORY ACTS (MAGISTRATES' DECISIONS).
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been directed to the observations made on 13th October, 1937, by Lord Hewart in the King's Bench Divisional Court, when dealing with an appeal by an inspector of factories against a firm who had not fenced dangerous machinery, which included a shaft turning at 190 revolutions a minute; and is it intended to take any action on the suggestions made by Lord Hewart in which Mr. Justice du Parcq and Mr. Justice Atkinson concurred?
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Samuel Hoare): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to a question by the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. C. Morrison) on 28th October.
  Mr. Short: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why he treats with contempt the opinions of the Lord Chief Justice and his learned colleagues?
  Sir S. Hoare: I never care to express an opinion in such cases.
  Mr. Short: Why does not the right hon. Gentleman take action in the matter?
  Sir S. Hoare: In the answer I gave on 28th October I explained our position quite clearly.

  CLUBS BILL.
  Mr. Messerasked the Home Secretary whether he can promise an early publication of the terms of the Clubs Bill promised this year and last year in the Gracious Speech?
  Sir S. Hoare: I regret that I am not at present in a position to specify a date for the introduction of the Bill.

  YOUNG PERSONS (HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT).
  Mr. Benjamin Smithasked the Home Secretary whether the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on the hours of employment of yonng persons in certain unregulated occupations extend to youths employed in the petrol distributing industry; and whether it is intended to include these youths in the proposed legislation?
  Sir S. Hoare: No, Sir. I presume that the hon. Member is referring to young persons employed in the sale of petrol at garages and filling stations, and I would point out that the hours of employment of these young persons are already regulated by the Shops Act, 1934.
  Mr. Smithasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the importance attached by the Departmental Committee on the hours of employment of young persons in certain unregulated occupations to the need to ensure that hours of employment are so arranged as not to deprive the young persons of reasonable facilities for recreation and further education, he will see that this aspect of the matter is given due consideration when the proposed legislation is being prepared?
  Sir S. Hoare: Yes, Sir. I can assure the hon. Member that the point which he raises will be carefully considered.
  Mr. Short: Can the Minister say when the Bill will be introduced?
  Sir S. Hoare: No, Sir, I can only say that it is a Bill which I am very anxious to see passed. I hope there will be time during the Session. I cannot give any further details.

  IMPRISONMENT (MISS BETTY CARTWRIGHT).
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Home Secretary whether the Governor of Winson Green Prison, Birmingham, has yet decided whether Miss Betty Cartwright is to remain in the prison hospital or to be removed for treatment to a nursing home; and, seeing that Miss Cartwright was sentenced to eight months' imprisonment for driving a motor car under the influence of drink, what are the grounds upon which the Governor has contemplated moving her outside the prison?
  Sir S. Hoare: A prisoner could not be removed from prison to a hospital or nursing home without my authority. There has been no recommendation by the Governor or Medical Officer that authority should be given in the case referred to, nor is there any reason at present to anticipate that such a recommendation will be made.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Will the Home Secretary inquire why the Judge in this case said that it caused him pain

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  to sentence Miss Cartwright, when apparently it causes no pain to sentence lorry drivers who meet with accidents, not through being drunk, but through being overworked and underpaid?
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that, if he should give his sanction for the prisoner to be removed to hospital, she cannot be taken back to prison?

  PARKED CARS, LONDON (LIGHTING).
  Mr. Dayasked the Home Secretary particulars of the parking places in the Metropolitan Area where the Commissioner of Police has exercised the power invested in him under the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, 1928, to exempt from lighting requirements vehicles standing in any of the recognised parking places; and in how many cases have applications been made to him and been refused for this restriction?
  Sir S. Hoare: I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the particulars asked for in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Day: Has the Minister any information as to how many of these requests have been refused?
  Sir S. Hoare: No, Sir; I could not say without notice. I am not sure whether I could with notice, but if the hon. Member will put the question down I will see whether I can.
  Following are the particulars:
  The power referred to has been exercised by the Commissioner in relation to the following parking places, where cars are permitted to stand without lights during the hours of darkness:

  Whitehall Court.

  Horse Guards Avenue.

  Victoria Embankment.

  Whitehall Place.

  Waterloo Place.

  Hans Place.

  St. James's Square.

  Cavendish Square.

  Blandford Street, late King Street (Baker Street).

  Portland Place.

  Bedford Square.

  Kingsway.

  Lincolns Inn Fields.

  Red Lion Square.

  Bloomsbury Square.

  Berkeley Square.

  Manchester Square.

  Golden Square.

  Soho Square.

  General Gordon Place, Woolwich.

  There is no record of the refusal of any application to the Commissioner in connection with the exercise of these powers.

  ACCIDENT, MILLWALL.
  Mr. Thorneasked the Home Secretary whether he can give the House any information in connection with a man killed at a railway arch at Millwall on Friday last; and whether he is aware of the comment made by the jury?
  Sir S. Hoare: I understand that this unfortunate fatality occurred in connection with the demolition of an archway. The jury recommended that greater precautions should be taken during the rest of the work and it was intimated at the inquest that this would be done. Operations of this kind are not at present subject to the Factory Acts and Regulations, but will come within the new Factories Act next year.

  FILM CENSORSHIP.
  Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider taking steps to appoint a film censor to protect the public interest, in view of the fact that the present film Censor is appointed and paid by the trade and has no responsibility to the general public or the State?
  Sir S. Hoare: This question has been repeatedly considered, and I have no reason to differ from the opinions expressed by my predecessors that the present system of censorship works on the whole very well. As the hon. Member is probably aware, the local authorities are responsible in law for deciding whether a particular film shall be exhibited or not in their area. As a general rule they accept the certificate of the British Board of Film Censors, but it is always open to them to allow a film to be exhibited which has not been passed by the British Board of Film Censors and to prohibit the exhibition of a film which has been so passed.
  Mr. Edwards: Is the Minister familiar with a case in which a body of people recently wrote to the Censor, under the impression that he was there to protect public interests, and that he not only did not acknowledge the receipt of the letter,

  559
  but sent it on to the producers, who took legal action against the people? Will he not, in view of this, reconsider the matter?
  Sir S. Hoare: No, Sir; I do not think an exceptional case of that kind would justify me in proposing any new action. The present system, speaking generally is working very well.
  Mr. Edwards: Is the Minister not willing to make it clear to the public that the present Censor is not in any sense a protector of public interests?

  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  Mr. R. Aclandasked the Home Secretary what are the tests to be applied in order to decide whether or not the houses in any district are or are not suitable for use as shelters from the effects, other than direct hits, of explosive bombs; and will he give examples from the London area where he could consider the houses suitable and unsuitable, respectively?
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): Most reasonably well-built houses contain a room which could be made to give fair protection against blast and splinters from a high explosive bomb falling some distance away; it is the problem of rendering houses gas-proof which in certain localities is more likely to cause difficulty. These question would be among those which the local authorities would have to consider when formulating their schemes for submission to my right hon. Friend; until these schemes have been received and considered, the information which would be necessary to answer the last part of the question will not be available.
  Mr. C. Woodasked the Home Secretary the reasons governing the appointment, as air-raid inspector at Leeds for the Yorkshire are, of a welfare officer from Scotland Yard; whether any effort was made to ascertain the existence of well-qualified people in the district to whom this appointment could have been given; what particular qualifications and knowledge of the people in the district the officer appointed had to possess; and whether appointments of this nature are advertised?
  Mr. Lloyd: In order to facilitate the work of the Air-Raid Precautions Department in giving advice and assistance to local authorities throughout the country in the organisation of air-raid precautions, it has been decided to appoint a number of regional inspectors in different provincial centres. These posts were not advertised, but were filled by appointments from the existing staff of the Department. The officers in question were selected as being suitable for the work of assisting and advising local authorities generally in the organisation of air-raid precautions.
  Mr. Mabane: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the air-raid inspector has taken up his work in Leeds?
  Mr. Lloyd: I understand that he has.
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Home Secretary the location of Government schools now giving instruction in air-raid precaution work; what is the total accommodation at such schools; and the average length of the instructional courses?
  Mr. Lloyd: One civilian anti-gas school is located at Falfield, Gloucestershire. A second anti-gas school will open at Easingwold, near York, on 27th December. The Falfield school accommodates 60 students. On completion the Easingwold school will accommodate a similar number. The course for anti-gas instructors is 10 working days, and the short course for senior officials is five days.
  Mr. Bellenger: In view of the statement by the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend as to the urgency of this work, does he consider that the facilities which he has just outlined are adequate to cope with the number of applications?
  Mr. Lloyd: Yes, Sir. It must be remembered that this system proceeds on a snowball system, and that these instructors are themselves capable of training a large number of others.
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Home Secretary the number of applications he is receiving per month from those desirous of receiving instruction in air-raid precaution work?
  Mr. Lloyd: The average number of applications received per month from local authorities for vacancies at the civilian anti-gas school is 37. Except in the case of Government servants, persons are not

  561
  admitted to courses at the civilian anti-gas school unless they are nominated by a local authority or by public first-aid bodies.
  Mr. Bellenger: Is there any delay in accepting the applications that are coming forward to local authorities?
  Mr. Lloyd: Yes, there is congestion.
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Home Secretary what control is exercised by his Department over the activities of the county air-raid precautions officers; and whether any inspection is made by officers of his Department of the type and extent of air-raid precautions in the country?
  Mr. Lloyd: The Air-Raid Precautions Department, through its inspectors, gives advice and assistance to the organising officers appointed by local authorities; and, as I have just stated in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. C. Wood) it has been decided, in order to facilitate this work and maintain closer contact; to appoint a number of regional inspectors.
  Mr. Bellenger: Have all these officers themselves been through an instructional course at the Government school?
  Mr. Lloyd: I could not say without notice.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Is the Air-Raids Department at the Home Office to give assistance?
  Mr. Lloyd: Certainly. The officers at the Department will be giving general advice and assistance to the local officers.

  EDUCATION.

    MILK IN SCHOOLS.
    Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education why no figures later than those of eight months ago are available to his Department concerning the number of children receiving milk in schools; whether he is aware that the numbers of such children in rural schools have fallen by large numbers during the last two months; what is the reason for this decline and what steps he is taking to deal with it?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay): My Noble Friend is not aware
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    of the large decline in numbers to which my hon. Friend refers. Returns are obtained from all public elementary schools twice a year, on 31st March and 1st October. The returns for 1st October, 1937, have not all been received. Complete returns are, however, available for 41 administrative county areas which are mainly rural in character, and in these the number of public elementary school children taking milk under the milk-in-schools scheme was nearly 35,000 greater on 1st October, 1937, than on 1st October, 1936, although the total number of children on the registers had fallen by nearly 10,000 during the interval. If the returns for 1st October, 1937, are compared with those for 31st March, 1937, the total number of children taking milk in these counties and the percentage of the total number on the registers were slightly higher in October than in March. As has already been said in replies to other questions, the Board are aware of the difficulties of distribution which exist in certain rural areas, but there is at present no evidence that these difficulties have resulted in a general decline in the percentage of children taking milk.
    Mr. Stewart: Would the hon. Gentleman not examine the figures further, and satisfy himself that in strictly rural schools there is not, in fact, a decline, and whether the figures are inclusive of a good many urban districts as well?
    Mr. Lindsay: I have taken one or two typical, essentially rural, counties, such as Herefordshire and West Suffolk, and in each case there is an increase and not a decrease. In the hon. Member's own adopted county there are 5,000 more.
    Mr. W. Joseph Stewartasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education the number of children in the elementary schools in the administrative county of Durham and the county boroughs of Sunderland and South Shields who are receiving free milk; and the number that are receiving milk at a cheap rate?
    Mr. Lindsay: On 1st October, 1937, 29,330 children were receiving free milk in the public elementary schools in the administrative county of Durham, and 29,364 were paying for liquid milk at the reduced rate under the milk-in-schools scheme. The corresponding figures for Sunderland are 3,268 and 8,084, and for South Shields 872 and 5,736.

    TEACHERS SUPERANNUATION.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will consider setting up a committee to deal with hardships which have arisen to certain school teachers under the improved scale of the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1918?
    Mr. Lindsay: It is assumed that my hon. Friend has in mind those retired teachers whose pensions are relatively small because they retired before the increased salaries paid to teachers after the War had the effect of materially increasing the average salaries on which pensions were based. The number of such pensioners is very small, and in general their pensions are larger than the pensions they would have received under the Acts previously in force and under the Pensions (Increase) Acts, especially when the value of the lump sum granted to them is taken into account. My Noble Friend does not think, therefore, that the appointment of a committee on the subject is called for.
    Mr. De la Bère: Are not the Government aware that these small cases of hardships cry aloud for redress?
    Mr. Mander: In view of the fact that the suggestions put forward by the hon. Member are invariably so extremely reasonable, will not more attention be paid to them?

    SECONDARY SCHOOLS (SPECIAL PLACES).
    Mr. Hicksasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education how many children have held special places in secondary schools in each year since the special-place system was instituted, and in respect of how many of those children in each year the payment of fees or part fees has been required?
    Mr. Lindsay: The Board's statistics do not enable me to give the particulars asked for in respect of the total number of children holding special places in any one year, but I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving these particulars in respect of the new awards of special places made in each of the four complete school years during which special place arrangements have been in force.
    Mr. Hicks: Has the Parliamentary Secretary any information as to whether
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    there are any, and, if so, how many, children who have been unable to take advantage of the special places system, due to the financial disability of their parents or guardians?
    Mr. Lindsay: I have no direct evidence. I should be glad to have it if there is any, because, under the system, no child should be debarred from taking advantage of it owing to inability to afford it; and that is why this system is in force.
    Following is the statement:

    Secondary Schools on the Grant List.

    Particulars of Special Places awarded at the beginning of the School Year.

    Year.

    Total.

    Partially exempt from fees.

    No exemption from fees.

    1933–34

    49,249

    6,376

    5,113

    1934–35

    51,748

    7,395

    5,365

    1935–36

    51,577

    7,514

    5,154

    1936–37

    55,976

    8,232

    5,510

    Note.—These figures exclude free places awarded under Article 15 of the Regulations for Secondary Schools.

    Mr. Hicksasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (1) the total amount of school fees paid in respect of children holding special places in secondary schools in each year since the institution of the special-place system;
    (2) the number of children who have failed to take up special places in secondary schools offered to them as the result of examination tests in each year since the institution of the special-place system?
    Mr. Lindsay: As the answer to these two questions is approximately the same, I will, with the permission of the hon. Member, answer them together. My Noble Friend regrets that the information for which the hon. Member asks is not available. I will send a letter to the hon. Member explaining this case. It is extremely difficult to get the kind of information that is being asked for.
    Mr. Hicks: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that officers of the Board of Education might very well submit themselves to the examination test as is submitted here in order to get the information?
    Mr. Lindsay: It is extremely difficult to get this particular information, but I am going to write to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Ede: Is it not the fact that the economies effected have never paid for the cost of the administration in securing them?
    Mr. Lindsay: No, Sir, I do not think that that is true. I would like to give the actual figures.
    Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education the number and the names of local education authorities in England and Wales which have 100 per cent. of special places in their secondary schools?
    Mr. Lindsay: The number of such local education authorities is 40. I am circulating a list of their names in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the list:
    LOCAL EDUCATION AUTHORITIES which award 100 per cent. Special Places in their Secondary Schools.

    ENGLAND.

    Administrative Counties.

    Durham.

    Middlesex.

    Essex.

    Wiltshire.

    Isle of Wight.

    CINEMATOGRAPH PROJECTORS.
    Mr. Whiteasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education what
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    proportion of the technical schools and institutes of the country are now supplied with cinematograph projectors; and of these how many are of the 16-millimetre type?
    Mr. Lindsay: According to information provided by the British Film Institute, some 33 colleges for further education, out of a total of 144 in England and Wales, have cinematograph projectors; of these 29 are of the 16-rnillimeter type.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (BROADCASTING).
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Prime Minister whether he will consult the British Broadcasting Corporation for the purpose of considering what arrangements can be made to enable the proceedings of the House of Commons to be broadcast, especially during the following times: 3 p.m. to 3.45 p.m. on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, between 6 p.m. and 7.30 p.m. on Tuesday and Wednesday, and on Mondays and Thursdays between the hours of 9 p.m. and 11 p.m.?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): No, Sir. I cannot see my way to adopting the hon. Member's suggestion. I have made inquiries, and I have ascertained that the broadcasting of the proceedings of this House would not commend itself to any considerable section of the House.
  Mr. Smith: Is the Prime Minister aware that in a country where they have a real people's Government, namely, in New Zealand, they have already adopted this policy; and will he consider that, if we are living in a real state of democracy, the people of this country are dependent for news of the proceedings of this House upon newspapers owned and controlled by two Lords in this country?
  Hon. Members: Three Lords.
  Mr. Davidson: If the Prime Minister cannot accede to this request, will he agree to arrange for television in this House at 8 o'clock on any night in the week?

  GERMANY (VISIT OF LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL).
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Ambassador in Berlin will be present

  567
  during the forthcoming conversations between the Lord President of the Council and the head of the German Government, having regard to the fact that these conversations will deal with matters of a type usually negotiated by an Ambassador in their initial stages?
  The Prime Minister: As stated on 12th November in reply to a Private Notice Question by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), the visit of the Lord President of the Council to Germany is entirely private and unofficial. His Majesty's Ambassador will not be present during the proposed conversations, which will not be of the nature of negotiations.
  Mr. Mander: Would it not be possible to arrange for this interview to be broadcast?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: May I ask the Prime Minister whether it may not adversely affect the prestige of the Ambassador to be relegated to the background in regard to these conversations which, by virtue of his office, he might have expected to carry out himself?
  Mr. Thorne: When the Noble Lord in question comes back, will he communicate with the Prime Minister about the conversations that have taken place, and, if so, will the right hon. Gentleman report those communications to the House?
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Mander.

  FOREIGN POLICY.
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of calling into consultation the leaders of all parties in the House, with a view to seeing how far it may be possible to agree upon a foreign policy backed by all parties and so avoid the division and national disunity at present existing?
  The Prime Minister: I do not consider that present circumstances justify the assumptions that appear to underlie the hon. Member's question. I certainly do not accept the implication that there is national disunity, and I should strongly deprecate any suggestion of the kind.
  As regards consultation with the leaders of other parties, I should have no hesitation in asking the Leader of the
  568
  Opposition or the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) to consult with me or my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on any aspect of foreign affairs about which consultation might appear to be useful, and I do not consider that anything beyond such occasional informal discussions is required.
  Mr. Mander: In view of the fact that it is known that the Oppositions are strongly opposed to the foreign policy of the Government, is it not worth while trying to make some effort to achieve national unity at this critical time?
  Mr. De la Bère: Is it not the fact that the hon. Member's assumptions are almost invariably wrong

  OIL FROM COAL.
  Mr. Edwardsasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether, in view of the far-reaching changes which have taken place since the establishment of the Fuel Research Board in 1917, he will consider amending the conditions governing its procedure in connection with the testing of oil from coal plants, particularly the limitation imposed on the director of fuel research, in paragraph 1 of the Department's published scheme, and under which his Department cannot test any plant unless it is of such a size that its performance will be comparable with that of a similar plant operating on a commercial scale?
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Earl Winterton): The hon. Member, no doubt, refers to the conditions under which tests of plants for low temperature carbonisation of coal are undertaken by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research at the cost of public funds. It is one of the conditions that if tests are so paid for, the results shall be made available to the public. The conditions were laid down in 1924 on the recommendation of the Advisory Council of the Department. In 1934 the clause governing the publication of results of tests was modified, but experience has otherwise indicated no need for amendment. On the other hand, it has shown the value of the condition that before a test is made at the public expense, a plant must be available

  569
  "of such a size that its performance will be comparable with that of a similar plant operating on a commercial scale."
  My noble Friend does not, therefore, propose to take steps to amend the conditions.
  Mr. Edwards: Does the Minister know that in the archives of the Fuel Research Board are details of a process which, if successful, it is claimed, would save more than £30,000,000 per year to the State; and in the circumstances does he not think that it is worth while, at the public expense, making a special investigation into this case?
  Earl Winterton: If the hon. Gentleman wants to refer to a specific case, I shall be very glad to look into it and to discuss the matter further with my noble Friend, but there does not appear, on the evidence available at present, any need for altering the regulations.

  HOUSING.

    WEEK-END COTTAGES.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider taking some steps to prevent the turning of farm labourers' cottages into week-end houses, in view of the fact that this is detrimental to the agricultural community?
    The Minister of Health (Sir Kingsley Wood): The decrease in the amount of accommodation available for the agricultural population through this cause was one of the matters dealt with in the recently published report of the Central 'lousing Advisory Committee. The Committee considered that the most effective remedy was the provision of further new houses to be let to agricultural workers at rents within their means and, as I have already announced, I propose to adopt their recommendation on this point. As regards cottages at present controlled under the Rent Restrictions Acts, the tendency to which my hon. Friend refers will, no doubt, be considered by the Departmental Committee at present investigating the working of those Acts.
    Mr. De la Bère: Will not the Government realise the real necessity for the farm labourers to own their own homes?

    RENT RESTRICTION.
    Mr. Ammonasked the Minister of Health what opportunity was given to the
    570
    Metropolitan boroughs to give evidence to the Committee on Rent Restrictions?
    Sir K. Wood: I understand that the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee were invited on 9th July, 1937, to submit evidence to the Departmental Committee, and that the Departmental Committee were informed by letter dated 21st July that instructions had been given to prepare the evidence which would be ready by the end of September. On 12th October the Departmental Committee were informed that the Standing Joint Committee were not able to give any evidence owing to the time allowed them being inadequate for the purpose. Statements of evidence have, however, been received independently from the Metropolitan boroughs of Bermondsey, Deptford and Fulham, and oral evidence covering the whole of the London area has been heard from the London County Council.
    Mr. Ammon: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it was unreasonable to expect the Metropolitan boroughs to prepare their evidence just before the long Recess? Their complaint is that, in effect, they have not been heard.
    Sir K. Wood: There are no grounds of complaint. Other Metropolitan boroughs were able to do this. They had from 9th July in which to prepare their evidence. As a matter of fact, oral evidence has been given from the London County Council.
    Mr. W. H. Green: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the three Metropolitan boroughs mentioned have had a long experience, due to having set up a rent information bureau since the passing of this Act, and that they were denied the opportunity of giving oral evidence?
    Sir K. Wood: If the hon. Member will put that question on the Order Paper, I shall be glad to answer it. It has no relevance to the question on the Paper.
    Mr. Benjamin Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the fact that another of the boroughs mentioned was also refused the opportunity of giving evidence?
    Sir K. Wood: I said that statements of evidence had been received from the

    571
    Metropolitan Boroughs of Bermondsey, Deptford and Fulham. As these boroughs were able to get their evidence prepared in the time, it is suggested that the other Metropolitan boroughs ought to have been able to do so.
    Mr. Smith: Is it right to say that the borough of Bermondsey was refused the opportunity of an oral inquiry?
    Sir K. Wood: I did not say anything of the kind.
    Mr. H. Morrison: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that it is inevitably a longer process preparing evidence for a collective authority of 28 authorities than it is for a single authority?
    Sir K. Wood: That may be so, but they had from 9th July and the Departmental Committee were informed on 20th July that instructions had been given to prepare the evidence by the end of September.

    OLD COTTAGES (DEMOLITION).
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Health whether old cottages, considered unfit for habitation, must be demolished in order to qualify for Exchequer subsidy any new houses built to receive the families displaced?
    Sir K. Wood: No, Sir. If, upon the service of a formal notice under Section it of the Housing Act, 1936, the local authority obtain an undertaking to close the old cottage for human habitation until in their view it has been rendered fit for the purpose, the Exchequer subsidy is payable in respect of any new house provided for the family displaced, notwithstanding that the old house has not actually been demolished. The continuance of the annual Exchequer payments would not be prejudiced by the fact that the old cottage was subsequently reconstructed.

    SLUM CLEARANCE.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Health whether the Ministry will exercise particular care, before condemning property upon which no compensation was being paid other than the site value, that the properties thus condemned had not in fact some value as habitable dwellings?
    Sir K. Wood: No property is included for acquisition on the basis to which my
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    hon. Friend refers unless I am satisfied after a careful examination by one of my inspectors that it is beyond all doubt unfit for habitation.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that conditions recently in regard to this matter have been far from satisfactory?
    Sir K. Wood: I understand that I shall have the honour this afternoon of conferring with my hon. Friend, and perhaps he will bring some cases to my notice.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    SILICOSIS.
    Mr. Andersonasked the Minister of Health how many men suffering from silicosis are receiving assistance from the public assistance committee in the districts of Whitehaven, Cleator Moor, Egremont, and Millom areas; and what amount was paid out during the last 12 months?
    Sir K. Wood: I regret that the records in my Department do not enable this information to be supplied.

    WATER SUPPLIES.
    Mr. Chorltonasked the Minister of Health whether the report of the Southeast Regional Water Committee of Lancashire and District has been received; whether it is intended to publish their proposals; and when the consultative committee to co-ordinate the work of the two regional committees in Lancashire will be set up?
    Sir K. Wood: I understand that the committee have not yet reported. No decision has yet been taken whether their proposals should be published. There is no intention, at present, to set up a consultative committee, pending a consideration of the matter by the Central Water Advisory Committee.
    Mr. Chorlton: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect the report? Is it not for the public good that the report should be published, so that the exact state of affairs may be made known? Further, when will a co-ordinating committee be set up to co-ordinate the work of these two regional water committees?
    Sir K. Wood: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to consider my reply.
    Mr. Chorltonasked the Minister of Health whether he will report the progress that has been made in the ascertainment of the available water sources in the country?
    Sir K. Wood: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on this subject on the 2nd instant to my hon. Friend the Member for Elland (Mr. Levy).
    Mr. Hicks: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of making inquiries as to the provision of adequate water supply by means of pipes in country villages, instead of relying upon separate wells of varied yielding capacity, so that these villages may have an adequate supply?
    Sir K. Wood: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to send him the statement which I made to the Trades Union Congress, which dealt with that matter?
    Mr. Chorltonasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the constantly increasing demand for water, coupled with the tendency to lesser rainfall that is now indicated, he is taking any steps to provide for national storage reservoirs, which may be utilised by suitable inter-connection, to help different districts?
    Sir K. Wood: No, Sir. I think that future needs can efficiently and more economically be met by the local or regional action of water undertakers.
    Mr. Chorlton: Despite the right hon. Gentleman's statement to the Trades Union Congress, is it not a fact that the state of affairs in regard to water supply is steadily becoming worse, and that no steps are being taken to meet it? Cannot he take some action really to help forward some scheme which later on would prove adequate for all purposes?
    Sir K. Wood: I cannot agree with my hon. Friend. Great progress has been made, and I should also like to send him a copy of the statement I made to the Trades Union Congress.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the insanitary state of the water supply at Kinmel Bay, in the county of Denbigh, and to the excessive price charged by a private company, the North Wales Water Company, otherwise known as the Kinmel Bay Estates,
    574
    Limited; and what steps he proposes to take to enable the residents at Kinmel Bay to obtain a cheap supply of good water?
    Sir K. Wood: My attention has been drawn to these complaints. The Urban District Council of Abergele have informed me that their medical officer of health is not prepared to advise them that the condition of the water is such as to be injurious to health. The charges made by the company, being non-statutory, are subject only to the terms of their contracts with their consumers, and I have no power to intervene. The area is within statutory limits of supply of the Rhyl Urban District Council. I understand that that council would be prepared to give a direct supply on a guarantee from the Abergele Council of a reasonable income on the capital expenditure involved, and I have recently drawn the attention of the latter council to this possibility.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman send an inspector to this area to make an inquiry, as a large number of new residents have been induced to come to this area by the advertisement of this company? In view of the representations which have been made will he investigate the whole matter?
    Sir K. Wood: Perhaps the hon. Member will confer with me. The difficulty is the contracts these people have made.
    Mr. Levy: Does not this question show the urgent need for inaugurating a standard of purity for the water supplies of this country?
    Sir K. Wood: This question deals with two specific matters, and does not refer to that general question.

    NURSING HOMES, LONDON.
    Dr. Leechasked the Minister of Health whether he will invite the local authorities concerned, either by scheduling a slum-demolition scheme or by stricter and closer supervision, to prevent more worn-out lodging-houses and old residences being converted into private nursing-homes in the area between Harley Street and Baker Street, Marylebone, in view of the fact that modernisation of such buildings does not render them completely sanitary or provide for a sufficient circulation of fresh air, or make them structurally suitable in surgical cases

    575
    where quietude for patients and comfortable accommodation for the nursing staff and a proper distance from kitchen annoyances are essential, nor provide means for the easy removal of patients in case of fire other than by the dangerous use of outside ladders and iron staircases?
    Sir K. Wood: The London County Council have power to refuse an application for registration in respect of a nursing home if they are satisfied that the situation, construction, accommodation, staffing or equipment of the premises render them unfit to be used as a nursing home. I have no information that this power is not adequately exercised, but I have asked the county council for their observations on the subject-matter of the question, and I will inform my hon. Friend of the result.

    TYPHOID OUTBREAK, CROYDON.
    Mr. Dayasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the outbreak of typhoid, resulting fatally in many cases, in the Croydon district owing to the pollution of the water supplies; and, in view of the fact that this is a question which requires immediate Government action, what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
    Sir K. Wood: Yes, Sir. I heard of this outbreak with great regret, and I directed my officers to visit the town immediately with a view to co-operating with the officials of the council with the result that effective steps were at once taken to safeguard the position as regards the water supply. I have informed the council that I propose to direct a public inquiry into all the circumstances of this epidemic.
    Mr. Levy: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no standard of purity for water supply in this country, and does he contemplate inaugurating such a standard?
    Sir K. Wood: This question deals with particularly regrettable cases where a number of people have become infected. I am causing inquiries to be made into the matter, and I do not think that any general question of that kind arises.
    Mr. H. G. Williams: Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to ask a legal gentleman who is not connected with the
    576
    Ministry to conduct the inquiry, in order that all possible suspicion may be removed?
    Sir K. Wood: Yes, Sir. I think it would be best in the circumstances of this case that the inquiry should be held by a gentleman of legal qualifications, probably assisted by a medical officer and an engineering expert.
    Mr. Day: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why a warning was not given to the inhabitants of this district as soon as pollution was known to the medical officer?
    Sir K. Wood: That is a matter which will, no doubt, be brought before the inquiry, and therefore I do not think it is desirable for me to discuss the merits of the matter.
    Mr. Day: Will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions that in future notification will be given to the inhabitants?

  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  Captain Macnamaraasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Mr. Copeland, of Warley, Essex, is unable to draw his wife's pension as the latter is in a mental home, in spite of the fact that Mr. Copeland pays for his wife's maintenance in that home; and whether he will take steps to amend the law so as to allow a pension to be drawn in cases such as these?
  Sir K. Wood: I am aware of the facts of this case with regard to which I have been in correspondence with my hon. and gallant Friend. I would point out that if the pension in this case had been a contributory one, that is, a pension resulting from the payment of contributions, the pensioner would not have been disqualified. The disqualification operates only in the case of non-contributory pensions, and I could not undertake to introduce legislation on this subject.

  MAIDENHEAD PUBLIC ASSISTANCE INSTITUTION (INMATES' DEATHS).
  Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Health whether he can give the House any information in connection with the death of two men at the Maidenhead Poor Law institution on Monday; can he say what was the cause of death and the ages of the two men?
  Sir K. Wood: I am informed that at the inquest held yesterday afternoon on these two men, the verdict was "death from misadventure through carbon monoxide poisoning." The ages of the men were stated to be about 40 and 50 years respectively. I am asking the county council for a further report on the matter.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (PUBLICITY SERVICES).
  Mr. H. Morrisonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the estirrated annual expenditure of the Government, respectively, on staff and in other respects in connection with publicity services; how many persons are engaged in promoting publicity for the work of Ministers and their Departments; and can he give the analagous information for the financial year 1930–31?
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): No staff is engaged for the purpose of promoting publicity for the work of Ministers as such. In the interests of good administration, staffs are employed for providing, where necessary, the public with full and up-to-date information with regard to the work and activities of Departments and in promoting a proper understanding between Departments and the general public whom they serve. Detailed information of these staffs and the expenditure involved is not immediately available but I am having inquiries made, and will communicate with the right hon. Member in due course.
  Mr. Morrison: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is a very definite impression abroad that in recent years publicity men have been employed by the Government, part of whose duties it is to promote the personal and political popularity of Ministers?
  Sir J. Simon: If that impression is entertained abroad then I am grateful to the right hon. Member for putting the question, because my answer will dispose of it as being absolutely unfounded.
  Major Procter: When the right hon. Gentleman is making an inquiry, will he also see how much is spent on promoting publicity for the chairman of the London County Council?

  EXCHANGE EQUALISATION ACCOUNT.
  Mr. A. V. Alexanderasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount included in the National Debt on account of the Exchange Equalisation Account on 1st November, 1935, 1st November, 1936, and 1st November, 1937, respectively?
  Sir J. Simon: The amount included in the National Debt in respect of borrowings to meet issues to the Exchange Equalisation Account on 1st November, 1935, and 1936, was £350,000,000, the amount authorised by the Exchange Equalisation Account Act, 1933. The amount on 1st November, 1937, was £550,000,000, as authorised by the Exchange Equalisation Account Act, 1937.

  TRUSTEE SECURITIES.
  Mr. Dayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the changed conditions in the investment market as compared with those that were prevalent when the existing list of trustee securities was prescribed, he will consider the question of setting up a. committee for the purpose of considering the desirability of extending the present list of trustee investments?
  Sir J. Simon: I see no sufficient reason for considering such an extension at the present time.
  Mr. Day: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the cost of living is greatly different from what it was when the existing list of trustee securities was drawn up?
  Sir J. Simon: I do not think that is the point. The hon. Member refers to a "list of trustee securities. "There is no such list. The law lays down conditions that must be satisfied before a security can be considered a trustee security, but various kinds of stocks and shares and other securities can fall within the definition from time to time.
  Mr. T. Johnston: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a public utility concern like the Electricity Board have to pay more than they otherwise would, because they are not scheduled as a trustee security?

  ANGLO-UNITED STATES TRADE AGREEMENT NEGOTIATIONS.
  Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a further statement about the progress of the discussions to find a basis of negotiation for a trade agreement with the United States Government?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I am very happy to be able to inform the House that the informal and exploratory discussions with a view to reaching an agreed basis for the negotiation of an Anglo-United States trade agreement have now reached a point at which the Governments of the United Kingdom and the United States feel able to announce that negotiations for such an agreement are contemplated. As my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade indicated to the House in the Debate on the Address, this announcement marks a definite and well-recognised step in the United States procedure of negotiation. I feel sure that the House will warmly welcome this further step towards an agreement between the two Governments.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Prime Minister the business for next week, and what Orders he proposes to take to-day?
The Prime Minister: On Monday and Tuesday, Second Reading of the Coal Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Wednesday: Consideration of private Members' Motions.
Thursday: Committee stage of the Air-Raid Precautions Bill.
Friday: Consideration of private Members' Bills.
During the week we hope to dispose of the remaining stages of the National Health Insurance (Juvenile Contributors and Young Persons) Bill, and other Orders if time permit.
As regards to-day's business, we desire to obtain the Second Reading of the Sea Fish Industry Bill and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution. We also propose to take the Report stage of the Air-Raid Precautions
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Money Resolution and the Housing (Agricultural Population) (Scotland) Money Resolution which are exempted business.
Mr. Messer: Can the Prime Minister say when it is likely that the Committee stage of the Blind Persons Bill will be taken?
The Prime Minister: That will be announced later.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (SUPERANNUATION CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL [Lords.]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 50.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SEA FISH INDUSTRY BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.49 p.m.
  Tim Minister of Agriculture (Mr. W. S. Morrison): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  The Bill is, I fear, one of formidable dimensions. It is a long Bill with 63 Clauses and four Schedules. Mere length, I know, is not usually a commendation of a Measure to the House; indeed, speaking as a Member of the House, I prefer short and succinct Bills where in a Clause or two any proposal for a change in the law can be made clear. In such cases the discussion rapidly settles down to familiar paths, guided by the political predilections of hon. Members in different parts of the House, and the course of the Debate follows more familiar lines. But it is nothing new for this House to have to deal with subject matter of a different order. The development of society, the advance of science and discovery not infrequently produce transformations in relationships which custom has made so familiar to us as almost to give them an air of permanence. I conceive it to be the duty of the House to observe such changes and to endeavour to direct them into those channels which best conduce to the public interest.
  It is, in fact, the public interest in this industry which justifies these affairs occupying the time of the House. I think no one will deny that the fishing industry has an importance in our national life which transcends its merely commercial aspect, important though that aspect be, of course, to those who are engaged in the industry. Efforts on the part of various Governments to assist the fishing industry are a very old story. From the earliest times—from the first times when man sought to make a society for himself wherein he could dwell—fishing has been of very great importance. Probably it was the desire to catch fish for food which first lured men on to the seas, and thus gave rise to all the traffics and discoveries which have ensued from that first adventure. Certainly in our eyes the connection between the fishing industry and our national survival has
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  always been recognised. The Reformation, I am told, led to a decline in the demand for fish, and our Tudor monarchs were quick to recognise the dangers to the Merchant Navy and to His Majesty's ships which threatened as a consequence of that falling off. It was Edward VI who enacted a "political Lent "which required fish to be eaten not only in Lent, but on Wednesdays as well as Fridays.
  Coming to more recent times, it is right that I should describe to the House the predicament in which this industry now finds itself, so that the House may be in a position to gauge the efficacy of the measures which are here proposed for an alleviation of that predicament. During the last 30 or 40 years very rapid changes have taken place as a result of mechanical inventions, and as in other spheres of life, there has been a slowness on the part of the human factors involved to adapt themselves fully to that mechanical advance. Thirty-five years ago, there were over 2,000 sailing trawlers and about 480 steam trawlers. The value of the catch in those days was about £3,000,000. In the year before the War, there were 1,300 steam trawlers of increased tonnage and range, and sailing vessels were reduced to some 800. Small motor vessels had by that time also begun to put in their appearance.
  At that time there was to be seen emerging a factor which is of great present-day importance. The range of those new vessels was enormously increased, and already in the year before the War, the North Sea produced less than half the fish which was consumed in these islands. After the War, there was a period—shortlived—of great prosperity in the fishing industry. The enforced limitation of fishing which resulted from War conditions led to a greatly increased yield of fish on the part of the North Sea, and one consequence of that was that a great number more steam trawlers of increased size and range were built. In 1920 there were more than 1,500 steam trawlers operating from English ports. By 1936, however, the number had fallen to 1,220, and by last year there were fewer than 100 sailing trawlers surviving. In addition to steam trawlers, there were some 4,000 motor vessels at work. At the same time as this advance on the part of ships

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  was taking place, new technical developments of the trawl—the catching engine—had made it a fish-killing instrument of greatly increased efficiency.
  The expansion of the industry can be illustrated briefly if I give the House the figures. Thirty-five years ago the annual catch was about 4,000,000 cwts. and its value about £3,000,000. In 1936, the annual catch had risen from 4,000,000 to 12,500,000 cwts., and the annual value was about £10,500,000. In 1936, the further tendency of increased ranges is illustrated by saying that in that year less than 13 per cent. of the fish caught came from the North Sea. The process has been, in short, one of ever-increasing range. More and more powerful vessels, equipped with more and more efficient trawls, were operating in more and more remote fishing grounds. Yields in quantity have increased, but the quality has tended to decline. The market has been in danger of being over-saturated with fish. Much of it, owing to the time it has been in the hold of the catching vessel, has arrived having lost its first bloom of youth and in a condition which I think Shakespeare describes as:
  "Weary, stale, flat, and unprofitable."
  Unprofitable it certainly has been, for the costs of the industry have risen very sharply. The most important element in the costs of the fishing fleet is coal. It is estimated roughly that it takes four tons of coal to catch one ton of fish. When the House remembers that during the last 18 months the cost of coal has risen by roughly 5s. a ton, and when it remembers that the industry consumes 4,000,000 tons a year, it will be seen that this element means an addition to the costs of the fishing fleet of £1,000,000 a year.
  This industry is in a different position from many other industries in that it cannot pass on increased costs to the consumer with the same facility as is enjoyed by other branches of our national activities. Fish has to be sold at once, because it must be sold as fresh as possible, and consequently it has to be sold for what it will fetch. There is also another element in the problem which should be borne in mind by hon. Members throughout our discussions. Fish, though an extremely valuable food, cannot be accurately described as an essential one, and if the fishing industry is to dispose of
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  its fish to the consumer, the fish must be presented to the public at a reasonable and attractive price. Any big rise in the cost of fish would reflect itself at once in the demand. For these reasons, the increased costs are incapable of being passed on as in some other industries.
  Moreover, the distribution of fish from the moment when it is landed on our shores to the time when it reaches the consumer has not kept pace, in economy and efficiency, with the developments of the trawl and the range of the vessels. If one takes 1914 as being 100, retail prices as a whole to-day are 143. The retail price of white fish is 202; but when one takes the price at the first sales—that is to say, when one takes the remuneration of the fishing fleet—the index is 104. Therefore, in short, the producer is getting no more than he did before the War, although his costs have gone up, while the consumer is paying roughly double. Part of this increase in distribution costs is undoubtedly due to the rise in wages in the distributive trade, but it is clear from these figures alone that the problem confronting the industry is an intricate and formidable one. The trawler owners, representing the catching side of the industry, have been anxious for some time to have a scheme along the lines of the Agricultural Marketing Acts. But it is quite evident that the producing side is only one facet of this complicated problem, that distribution has its own problems as well as catching, and the Bill which I now propose should be read a Second Time seeks to provide machinery whereby those engaged on all sides of the industry may introduce order into their operations and provide what must always be a prime condition of prosperity, that is, an abundant supply of good fish at prices attractive to the public.
  The crisis which has arisen in the fishing industry led to the Sea-Fishing Industry Act of 1933, and there was appointed then a Sea-Fish Commission under the Chairmanship of Sir Andrew Duncan. The Commission reported first on the herring industry, whose position was at that time considerably more serious, and following their first report dealing with herring, legislation to deal with that part of the industry was introduced and passed. This Bill follows their second report, which deals with the white fish side of the industry, and I can say in

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  general that it follows the recommendations of the second report of the Sea-Fish Commission. The proposals that are embodied in the Bill have been discussed by those concerned, and although they have found points of detail to criticise and I have no doubt we shall hear more of them in subsequent discussion of those points, yet on the whole I thank they generally approve of the Bill as drafted.
  It is a long Bill and I will say a word or two about the various parts of it. It is proposed in Part I to bring into being two new bodies. One is the White Fish Commission of five members, appointed by the Ministers and paid for out of public funds. The commission is to be a nonrepresentative body and its membership independent of any section of the industry itself. To assist them there will be a White Fish Industry Joint Council as mentioned in Clause 2. The members of the Joint Council will be appointed by Ministers after consultation with the various interests involved. They will not be entrusted with any executive functions; their functions are entirely advisory. The principal classes of persons who will be represented on the joint Council consist of these: There will be the actual catchers of the fish, the wholesalers, the fishmongers, the fish friers, and a fifth category consisting of those engaged in the processing of fish, such as curers and canners. In addition to that the Bill provides for Ministers to appoint any representatives of other interests who may be affected by the Bill.
  Mr. A. V. Alexander: Are these full-timers.
  Mr. Morrison: I will deal with the question of tenure later. The functions of the Commission are set out in Clauses 1, 3, 15 and 19, and generally I can say that they are to keep under review the affairs of the industry and to advise and assist Ministers with regard to its problems. In particular Clause 3 imposes on them, firstly, the duty to register all persons of the classes I have just enumerated, and secondly, they are empowered to submit marketing schemes for catchers and distributors; and also to ensure—this is very import ant—cooperation and co-ordination in the operation of the different marketing schemes when they come into being. They are also enjoined by Clause 19 to submit co-operative schemes for inshore fishermen,
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  and they are given power to make regulations governing the marketing of fish and also to administer, under ministerial direction, a voluntary fund which may be raised by the industry for this purpose.
  Let me say a word or two about registration. Registration is the necessary first step in dealing with the problems of an industry which is very largely unorganised. We have not got an accurate census of the persons involved and engaged in the various branches of the fish business. The register when compiled will be the basis for the voting which is a feature of marketing schemes before they can come into being. It is proposed, subject to any exceptions which may be allowed later, that registration shall become compulsory six months after the passing of the Bill into law; but in the case of the catchers the period of registration is limited to one month. This may strike the House as being a little harsh and peremptory in dealing with this particular section, but the reason is that the catchers' side are ready with their scheme and are very anxious to bring it into operation at the earliest possible moment, and it is at their request that the short period of one month is inserted with regard to themselves. There will be no restriction upon who may be registered under the Bill. It is provided that the Commission must register any applicant. They are empowered to charge a small fee for the expenses of registration. The marketing schemes which are described in Clause 5 are intended to be submitted by the Commission and they may be prepared either by the Commission itself or by representative bodies in the industry. They will have to be voted upon like other schemes on a poll of the persons affected by them, and they will have to be submitted to Ministers and approved by an affirmative resolution of both Houses of Parliament.
  It is proposed that the administration of these schemes should be entrusted to boards partly made up of persons elected by the industry itself, but with an independent chairman appointed by Ministers. The experience of marketing boards in general justifies this. Independent members have frequently been of the greatest assistance to these boards in organising schemes. These schemes are financed and run by contributions from their own constituents, and in general

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  the powers of the boards to enforce these schemes are similar to those to be found in the Agricultural Marketing Act of 1931. With regard to the producers' marketing scheme, first of all the chief powers which may be conferred on their board are to regulate marketing by the producers, and particularly to limit quantities and to fix the minimum prices of fish for human consumption. It is intended that this last power shall be confined within narrow limits; these limits are not contained in the Bill but will be in the Scheme. They will also be enabled to license boats in order to check uneconomic expansion of the trawler fleet, to give directions limiting the number of landings which licensed boats may make of fish, to make provision for the temporary laying up of boats, and generally to encourage them to continue to improve the condition in which fish is landed.
  The distributors' marketing schemes are schemes for wholesalers, fishmongers or friers, jointly or separately, and enable their boards to regulate the equipment and condition of premises and vehicles used for the sale of white fish, as explained in Clause 10. The Clause applies to warehouses, market stands, shops, travelling vans, hawkers' barrows and so on, and provides generally for regulation of the manner in which white fish is offered for sale. These distributive boards will have neither licensing powers nor price-fixing powers. There are certain development powers which boards may have and into which I need not go at length. They are set out quite simply in Clause 11. They are things like the collection of information, the promotion of research, advertising, and other matters of common interest to the industry.
  Next with regard to the safeguards for the consumer, which it is always necessary to insert in Bills of this kind, I would remind the House of what I said earlier, that it is to the interest of the fishing industry itself to present its wares in as an attractive a form as possible, both in regard to quality and price, and the peculiar position of fish in the daily menu is such as to make its consumption shrink if the price goes up. But at the same time there are these safeguards. First of all there is the presence of independent members on the board. There are a consumers' committee and a com-
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  mittee of investigation, with functions similar to those set out in the Agricultural Marketing Acts. Ministers have the same power to amend or revoke schemes or to require changes in administration on the report of the Committee of Investigation. Then there is the Commission's power under Clause 15 to recommend to the Ministers amendments to schemes. That is necessary to secure co-ordination between the various schemes, and in the second place for the protection of the public.
  When we come to the inshore fishermen we find that they need special treatment. They are not organised on a commercial scale as are trawler companies or owners, or like any commercial organisation, and a different method of treatment seems to us desirable. We are prepared, therefore, to approach their particular problems by means of giving them power to form co-operative schemes or for the Commission to form co-operative schemes for them, so that they may combine for their common good. They may, for example, set up a centralised selling organisation in their area and require their constituents to sell to this organisation, and they may also organise on a co-operative basis the collective purchase of supplies and gear. A scheme of this sort for inshore fishermen may be financed either by charges made by the body which is authorised to administer it, or, if it is more convenient, by direct contributions, but we recognise that in order to give this new venture the necessary impetus to start itself, assistance by loan from public funds up to a maximum of £10,000 in all should be given. We believe that if these schemes are operated, as they will be, on the same lines roughly as the comparable service schemes under the Livestock Industry Act, they will offer to these communities which are so valuable in our national life an opportunity to improve their position.
  Mr. Shinwell: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by direct contributions?
  Mr. Morrison: The body running a scheme of this character might finance it by making charges for its services, or, if it was found more convenient, the scheme might provide for each member of the co-operative unit making a contribution to the finance of the scheme, instead of the amount being fixed by a scale of charges.
  Mr. Shinwell: A levy?
  Mr. Morrison: Well, a levy if you like; and there is also the provision for assistance by loan from public funds up to £10,000. That is merely in order to launch the enterprise.
  Clause 4 of the Bill gives the Commission a certain power of regulation. In particular it will govern by regulation matters of common concern to the whole industry, as distinct from matters of particular concern to sections of the industry which can be organised under their own boards. Questions of curing, salting, drying, smoking and canning fish, where it is not thought advisable or necessary to have marketing schemes, will come under the regulating power of the Commission itself. The general purpose of these regulations of the Commission will be to improve methods of treating and processing, and the manner in which white fish is handled and presented to the public. There are, of course, many distributors who now reach a very high standard in this matter, but I am sure there is room for improvement in this important branch of the industry, and we hope to achieve improvement through the Commission's regulations.
  Regulations may also be made as to the manner in which white fish is described on sale, in order to prevent misleading descriptions. I am told that sometimes in restaurants one may be offered what is called a lemon sole and find that it is really a dab originating in the Arctic. At any rate, regulations can be made for dealing with that matter and also with such matters as grading and packing, the orderly conduct of auction markets and for limiting commission charges and charges for services rendered in connection with the consignment of fish such as the loan of boxes, an so forth. The Commission may also make regulations as to the quality and purity of the raw materials used and, in general, to improve the efficiency of this branch of the industry and protect the public at the same time. It is thought that when schemes are in operation, it may be possible for the industry itself to raise a voluntary fund for common purposes, and, if so, the Commission will be entrusted with its administration, subject to review and audit.
  With regard to the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for
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  Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) as to the Commission itself, membership of the Commission will not necessarily be a whole-time occupation. That is a matter which can be considered, but the point about which I thought the right hon. Gentleman was asking was the duration of the Commission's existence. The Government after reviwing the important recommendation of the Sea-Fish Commission thought it would be better to put no limit on the life of the Commission, because it is being entrusted with wider functions than those originally contemplated in the report. Its duty is to organise the industry, and the future alone can tell what will be the rate of progress in dealing with that great task. It is the intention of the Government to review the position in four or five year's time, and see what progress has then, been made, and in the light of the experience gained it can then be decided whether and on what terms the Commission should continue. It must be rememBèred that the Commission under our proposals constitutes a continuing burden upon the Exchequer, and such a review as I suggest at the end of four or five years will enable us to judge more accurately what the position should be with regard to its future. In the meantime, as I say, we have thought it best to insert no time limit on its operations in the Bill.
  Mr. Alexander: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the difference between the Commission's functions under Clause 3 which appear to be concerned with registration, and those under Clause 6 (3) which seem to be a duplication.
  Mr. Morrison: Clause 3 deals with the duty of the Commission, as a first step, to register all persons engaged in the industry, in any of its branches, in order to get a basis for the review of the position and to provide the voting rolls for schemes when they come along. With regard to marketing schemes it is intended that the registration list collected by the Commission, shall, in so far as it contains the names of members of one branch of the industry, be handed over to the board running that part of the industry when it is created, and Clause 6 provides that when a marketing scheme is in existence any person engaged in the relevant business can apply to be registered under it. There are no doubt points of detail in Part I of the Bill which hon. Members

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  may wish to raise later, but I think I have now dealt with it sufficiently.
  I pass to Part II of the Bill which deals with the protection of small fish. This is a problem with which the House is fairly familiar and on which I need not expatiate. It is common knowledge, not only in this country but abroad, that the modern development of fishing ingenuity and power is in danger of destroying the source of the industry by overmuch fishing and by the killing of immature fish and spawn and undersized fish, thus stopping the very source of this wealth. This matter has been several times investigated, and the more we consider the problem the graver it becomes. I need not refer again to the relatively small proportion of our catch last year provided by the North Sea. So advanced has modern fishing become that even remote fishing grounds are now showing signs of exhaustion. In 1933 we imposed on our own fishermen certain regulations governing the size of mesh in nets. Although this placed a restriction upon our own fishermen not shared by our neighbours on the Continent, it was generally recognised by the industry, in spite of the grievance involved, as a measure conducive to its ultimate benefit.
  This year we held a conference of an international character in London as a result of which we reached so much agreement that a Convention was drawn up which is embodied for ratification in Part II of the Bill. The only change in the law of our own country which this involves is as follows: The Act of 1933 relied for the protection of small fish upon the prohibition of sale. It was found during the discussions at the conference that it was desirable also to prohibit the landing of small fish and their retention after capture, and we have agreed that a change in the law to that effect should be made operative by Part II of the Bill. Clause 39 deals with a practice which I am told is called "blinding." It means that if the trawl or net is of the legitimate size of mesh, the protection to the fish is rendered nugatory by associating with the net another net of different dimensions of mesh, or some other substance such as canvas.
  Mr. R. C. Morrison: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what countries are concerned in this Convention?
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: I have not a list of them at hand, but I think I can tell the hon. Member generally. They include Belgium, Denmark, Germany, the United Kingdom, Iceland, the Irish Free State, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Sweden.
  Viscountess Astor: Is France not included?
  Mr. Morrison: No, but that is a matter on which I do not wish to say too much at the moment. I hope the French Government may see the wisdom of joining with us and with these other countries, in this matter.
  Viscountess Astor: But suppose the French Government does not see the wisdom of joining with us. In that case, it is going to be all wrong as far as the West Country is concerned. Is there no way of bringing them to their senses? I think we are too soft with the French.
  Mr. Morrison: The Noble Lady will realise that in an international conference the method of arriving at results is by discussion and argument. We have this matter under review, and I hope it will be possible for the French to come in at a later stage, but they have at the moment made certain reservations. The House will agree that the protection of immature fish is important, and that it has been well worth while getting the assent to this Convention of the great fishing nations I have mentioned.
  In passing, I wish to refer to Clause 41, which amends the Sea-Fishing Industry Act in one particular, in that it formally discharges the Sea Fish Commission presided over by Sir Andrew Duncan. I should like to say, and I believe it is the experience of everyone who appeared before that Commission, that it did its work with the greatest patience and thoroughness, and in such a way as to earn the gratitude and confidence of those who are engaged in the industry. I wish to express my sincere appreciation to the chairman and members of the Commission for the valuable public service which they have rendered.
  Part III of the Bill deals with whales and it also ratifies an international agreement. Hon. Members know perhaps, that the number of whales in the Arctic has shrunk to a very small figure owing to the extermination of these great

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  mammals, the pursuit and capture of which was once such a large industry in this country and in other parts of Europe. There is danger of the same process occurring in the Antarctic where the whaling industry has been mainly carried on for many years. The Government were able to exercise protective power in regard to the whales in the Antarctic up to fairly recent times because it was the custom for whaling vessels when they made a capture, to bring it to some island where there was a land station for rendering it down into oil. As a large number of these islands in the Antarctic were under the jurisdiction of this country, we were able to exercise a protective influence over the whales in that area. But again the advance of science has brought into existence the floating factory, so that the whale is not only caught at sea, but the whole process of converting the whale into whale-oil is done on board ship, on the high seas, and outside the jurisdiction of any nation.
  Without going closely into figures, l can tell the House that in 1933–34 and in 1934–35 there was a very intensive hunting of whales and very great destruction, as many as 39,000 of these animals being killed in a single season. Therefore, it was obvious that the regulations already in force as a result of the Geneva Convention were not sufficient, and His Majesty's Government invited an international conference, which met in London last June. That conference agreed upon certain further measures for curtailing the activities of the whaling industry, and we hope that they may go a long way towards protecting the stock. The principle measures of control which the conference adopted, additional to those already in operation, were the entire prohibition of the killing of grey whales, and the provision of powers to limit the number of whale catchers and to close to whaling selected areas in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans which we either know or believe to be breeding grounds. Part III of the Bill deals with that matter. Perhaps, in passing, I might mention that experiments have recently been carried out with the object of investigating the methods used for killing whales, and certain suggestions have been made, and are now being experimented with, that whales can be killed, if not quite instantaneously, at least very much more humanely, by means of electrical apparatus than by many of the
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  methods now used, and so it is proposed in the Bill, in Clause 46, Sub-section (3), to take powers to prohibit, if thought fit, the killing of whales otherwise than by an approved method. I am sure it is the desire of the House that this business shall be conducted with as much humanity as is possible.
  Sir William Davison: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the same nations agreed to this Clause with regard to whales, but not France again?
  Mr. Morrison: One country not participating in this agreement is Japan. I am not sure about France, and perhaps my hon. Friend will let me make inquiries, but as far as I know, the only one which did not agree was Japan.
  Part IV of the Bill deals with the remuneration of the crews of fishing boats. The Sea Fish Commission, in addition to their other recommendations, made proposals with the object of removing a ground of dissatisfaction that was frequently expressed among those of the crews of fishing vessels who are remunerated in whole or in part by share. They made suggestions that the existing law should be clarified, that the superintendents of the Board of Trade should be furnished with copies of the accounts which are known in the trade as "settling sheets," and that the superintendents should be empowered to inquire into the accuracy of any settling sheets without waiting for any formal dispute to be declared. In general, the object of these proposals, which the Government have adopted in toto, is to let a man know where he stands with regard to what deductions may legitimately be made from the profits of the catch of the vessel, and remove any ground of dissatisfaction that the profits are not being properly shared out.
  The Fifth Part of the Bill contains miscellaneous provisions, and in general they are designed to take advantage of the experience which we have had of the working of local fishery committees and to render their operations more flexible and easy. In addition, there are provisions, in Clauses 54 and 55, for imposing penalties on the owners of fishing vessels who are knowingly employing skippers who have been previously convicted of poaching offences and also for increasing the monetary penalties for poaching offences and for obstructing

  611
  fishery officers in the execution of their duty. These and other miscellaneous provisions fill up this Part of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will be replying to the Debate, and any other questions that hon. Members may like to put to him, he will then answer. I have done my best to explain, in outline, the contents of this very long Bill, but I have naturally missed many points of detail, which we can discuss in Committee or later on in the Debate to-day. Covering, as it does, a very wide front, there will no doubt be many points on which the Bill may be criticised, and I hope it may be possible in Committee, with the help of hon. Members, to make improvements in the provisions of the Bill.
  The House will, I am sure, realise two points which have governed the preparation of the Bill and which may be expected to influence its subsequent discussion. The first is, that in this industry there are many sectional interests. We have done our best to meet them, but it is obviously impossible to give every interest all that it wants without trenching on the rights of others, who are equally to be considered. I believe I can tell the House, however, that this is recognised by these interests themselves and that the Bill is, in general, desired by them all. The second point is that, besides what I have referred to as sectional interests, the public at large have a very deep and abiding interest in this great industry. In time of peace it furnishes the people with a valuable supply of food, and its members carry on their avocation often under conditions of hardship and peril from the sea; and we remember with what skill and gallantry in the Great War our fishing fleets and the men who manned them played their essential part in the National Defence. There is no doubt that this great industry is now in sore straits and that its rehabilitation cannot be achieved without the assistance of Parliament. It is in the hope that this Bill will provide that assistance that I now ask the House to give it a Second Reading.
  4.38 p.m.
  Mr. Shinwell: I cannot pretend, any more than the Minister himself, to any extensive acquaintance with the sea-fishing industry, but I have one advantage
  612
  which, to the best of my knowledge, the Minister does not possess. Several years ago I assisted to organise the fishermen in several ports of the country, and I learned something of their mode of life, of their experiences, and of their great hardships. The first point that I desire to make is that, while many suggestions appear in this Measure for the reorganisation of the industry and the preparation of marketing schemes, there is but scanty provision for the fishermen themselves. At the same time, we on these benches welcome any effort to promote efficiency in this industry and to place it on a sounder basis, and in particular to make available a more plentiful and cheap supply of what, undoubtedly, is a most nutritious article of food.
  It is remarkable that the people of this country should consume so little fish. Some hardly consume it at all, and I am afraid there are many people who consume it only as part of that highly delectable combination colloquially known as fish and chips. There is some very interesting information extant on the subject of the consumption of fish. From the particulars ascertainable in the Duncan report, I find that the average landings of white fish, at any rate in recent years, are round about 15,000,000 cwts., and if we allow for the inevitable measure of waste and set aside a certain allowance for the salt fish exported to other countries, it is, I think, fair to say that the consumption per head of the population annually is approximately 28 lbs. That is indeed a very low figure, and it might be advisable to consider for a few moments what is the reason for such a low consumption. It may be that the price is too high and I observed that the right hon. Gentleman himself exercised considerable caution in dealing with that aspect of the subject. In fact, he warned those associated with the industry that if the price was excessive, the demand fell off.
  If we examine the value of the landings of white fish at the various ports of the country, we find that, again allowing for waste and other items, the first sale price, that is to say, the auction price, is roughly 2d. per lb. That may or may not provide a profit to the producer, but what we do know is, that the retail price of fish sold in the shops or hawked around the streets is very much in excess of that amount. I have managed to

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  secure a document issued by the Civil Service Stores dealing with the price of fish. It is a kind of prospectus, and although undoubtedly there are many people who consume fish who are unable to purchase their supplies at an establishment of this kind, we may take the prices which arc ranged here as the general average for the country. I find that, taking various kinds of fish, the average retail price works out at about 1s. per lb. Now there is considerable disparity as between the first sale price and the retail price, and some explanation requires to be furnished on that very important head.
  May I direct the attention of the House to the views of the Duncan Commission on what they describe as the price structure? On page 54 of the report they indicate the various processes through which the fish has to pass on its way from the producer to the retailer and then to the consumer. They start off with an index figure of 100, which is the amount paid by the port wholesaler to the trawler owner. There are to be added to that various items such as wages and salaries, carriage and packing, other expenses and net profit, and we reach a figure of 123. Then it passes from the port wholesaler to the inland wholesaler. There are several items of a similar kind, and the figure reaches 144. Then it passes from the inland wholesaler to the fishmonger, who has to pay wages and salaries, carriage and packing, rent, rates and other items of expenditure, and provide himself with a profit. Then we reach a figure of 196, which is the amount paid by the consumer to the fishmonger. Therefore, even if we set aside the prospectus issued by the Civil Service Stores as showing prices which are excessive, we can at least rely upon the price structure furnished by the Duncan Commission's Report.
  It is still more remarkable, in face of this vast difference in the prices, that the Duncan Commission should have revealed that the profits of this industry are negligible and that certain sections of the industry, as the Minister has just declared, reap no profits at all. We are told that the trawler owners are in a position of great difficulty, that the wholesalers are similarly affected, and that the retailers can hardly keep their businesses going. In face of all these statements, it is difficult to ascertain why there should be
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  such a gulf between the first sale price and the price which the consumer is called upon to pay.
  Mr. Loftus: The hon. Member has referred to the Duncan Report. On the next page appear the words:
  "Fish roughly doubles in cost on its way from the port to the consumer, even without making any allowance whatever for wastage."
  Mr. Shinwell: I am obliged to the hon. Member, because he has drawn my attention to another interesting part of the report which I shall quote. The commission stated:
  "It can be said that, under present conditions, fish roughly doubles in cost on its way from the port to the consumer, even without making any allowance whatever for wastage arising either from deterioration, or from heading, filleting, etc."
  We have to pay regard to this vast difference which, I think the hon. Member will agree, is excessive and requires a considerable explanation. There is no dispute about the facts; they are revealed by the Duncan Commission and they furnish the basis for the Measure that is now before the House. They go to prove the need for a drastic organisation in all sections of the industry, but I doubt whether that measure of reorganisation can be rendered effective by the provisions of this Bill.
  We on these benches would prefer a much more drastic reorganisation on the lines of the complete national control of the industry. It seems to me that the evidence supports that contention, and I shall enumerate some of the reasons for our opinion. To begin with, there are, as the Minister said, too many conflicting interests in the industry. Moreover, there is difficulty in reconciling the interests of the trawler owners, the wholesalers and the retailers. Many documents have been issued of late indicating that these differences are very vital. Furthermore, the industry depends to a considerable degree upon smooth transport facilities. Many hon. Members must be aware, particularly those who represent fishing ports and have some knowledge of the industry, that in many of the ports the railway companies own the docks, and there is considerable difficulty in utilising road transport, which is much cheaper, from the standpoint of the fishing industry, than the railways, not because the railways cannot afford to cheapen their charges to the industry, but because they have a virtual monopoly.

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  Over and above that, there is the experience of the Herring Board, which arose out of the first report of the Duncan Commission. That board led to a rise in prices and to a measure of reorganisation, but would not the Minister agree that, so far no solution has been found for the problems that vex the herring industry? That is borne out almost daily in this Honse by the questions which are asked, not so much by Members on these benches as by Members on the opposite side.
  In order to fortify my contention that a more drastic method of organisation is rendered inevitable by the state of this industry, I will take the analogy of the coal industry. There was a scheme not unlike the one now before the House introduced in 1930 relating to the mining industry. It provided for co-ordination, for marketing schemes, known as selling schemes, and for a variety of other devices and expedients designed to take the industry out of chaos. In spite of those schemes and of Amendments to the 1930 Act which were intended to improve that Measure, the Government are now contemplating the national ownership of royalties and compulsory amalgamation in the coal industry. The reason is that it has been discovered that the measures which were introduced before 1930 and since were insufficient to put the industry on a proper basis. I venture the opinion that precisely the same thing will happen in relation to the fishing industry, because that industry, like the coal industry and many other depressed industries, cannot be trusted to undertake the job itself.
  For example, we have had recently, as has been revealed in the newspapers, a demand for a subsidy for inshore fishing. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman has had his attention drawn to the demand. It is not the intention of the Government to provide a subsidy in this Measure, beyond the £10,000 loan and provision for co-operative schemes, but it is clear that the inshore fishing industry cannot depend exclusively on the provisions of this Bill. It will require a much more drastic method of organisation and it will continue to demand subsidies. Whether the Government respond or not is another matter. I merely mention that point in order to indicate that it does not matter how much you impinge on the organisation of a privately owned industry; there is something radically and fundamentally
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  wrong which can only be effectively tackled by the more drastic methods advocated by this party.
  Mr. Petherick: Is the hon. Gentleman advocating the complete nationalisation of the whole of the fishing industry?
  Mr. Shinwell: I am advocating the national ownership of the producing and the wholesale distributing ends of the industry.
  Mr. Petherick: Run as a Government concern?
  Mr. Shinwell: No, no more than the coal industry would be run as a Government concern. It would be run as a State concern, which is quite different from a Government concern. It would not be administered by civil servants in Whitehall or dominated by politicians, but administered and run by experts who know their business, and instead of operating on behalf of private interests making private profits, they would operate and function on behalf of the whole people. This is not, however, a Debate on national ownership. Nothing would please me better than such a Debate. We are dealing now with the fishing industry.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that the system in Scotland by which fishermen individually or in groups of two or three own boats and control their own operations would be abandoned under his scheme in order that they might become members of a State controlled industry?
  Mr. Shinwell: I am interested to hear the hon. Gentleman say that the fishermen who own a boat or have a share in the ownership of a boat control anything at all, because, judging from the frequent complaints and appeals made by the hon. Member on behalf of these men, they are in a very bad way and own nothing at all.
  With regard to the provisions of the Bill, everything depends on the nature of the schemes that are provided for. The right hon. Gentleman said nothing about them and went no further than to indicate what was the framework in which the schemes were to be introduced. He furnished the skeleton of the schemes, but not the schemes themselves. The Minister may take refuge behind the fact that no

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  scheme can be drafted until the interested parties meet and present a scheme, but I would remind him that the British Trawler Owners' Federation about a year ago prepared a scheme which, no doubt, the Minister has seen. Therefore, it seems to me that the Minister was in a position, though he did not take advantage of it, to indicate in a general way at least, if not in detail, the nature of the schemes that were to be furnished when the Bill becomes an Act. We are at present working in the dark, for we have no conception of what is to happen. There may be schemes and there may be no schemes. If the industry decides to have no schemes and no co-operation, there will be none beyond what the Commissioners may themselves determine in relation to a modified measure of regulation in the industry. The right hon. Gentleman might interest the House if later he could indicate what the schemes are likely to be.
  One of the most substantial criticisms of the Bill is that there is only one section of the industry upon which monopoly powers are to be concerned. The Minister in a cursory and perfunctory fashion skipped over this problem. I noticed that he spoke about the actual catchers of fish as if the trawler owners were the actual catchers. They are nothing of the sort. I shall say something about the actual producers before I sit down, but as regards the trawler owners who are designated as the producers in respect of this Measure, they are to have almost unlimited and unfettered powers. They are to have the power of registration; there is nothing to complain of in that, for it is very desirable in the circumstances. They are to have the power to determine the use to which fishing vessels are put. They are to have the further power of determining how many fishing vessels should be used, and how much white fish is to be landed at any given time. There may be excellent reasons why those monopoly powers should be conferred upon the trawler owners, though we have had no indication of them, but why are not similar powers to be granted to other sections off the industry? What is the distinction between the trawler owner and the port wholesaler?
  This point is all the more pertinent because there are some trawling companies which meddle, if I may use the
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  word without disrespect, in the affairs of the wholesalers. It is not as though we were dealing with sections of an industry which are in watertight compartments. Producers, as they are called, although they are not the actual producers, port wholesalers, inland wholesalers, retailers, hawkers, fish-friers and the rest, are all special interests. There are trawler owners who are also wholesalers on a very large scale. There is the well known firm of Mac Fisheries, a subsidiary of Lever Brothers, controlling 31 companies and several trawling companies. They are port wholesalers, inland wholesalers, and retailers on a very extensive scale, with a chain of shops up and down the country. Their authorised capital is £3,000,000 and, this is most significant of all owned by Lever Brothers—perhaps the firm of Unilever, but, as I gather from the Stock Exchange Year Book the firm of Lever Brothers. Here is a remarkable feature. A great deal of the fish which is not sold to the ordinary consumers is disposed of as waste offal, converted into fish meal and other by-products—and the firm of Lever Brothers is intensely interested in such by-products.
  Are we in this Measure conferring a virtual monopoly on Lever Brothers and one or two firms of a like character? If that is the intention, I am afraid that not only will hon. Members here have a great deal to say about the matter but that the country will have something to say, because if we confer such monopoly powers on an undertaking of this character obviously the price level will be affected. If there be any doubt about that I direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to what occurred during the embargo period. As we know, there is an embargo period operating in certain months of the year under the powers of the Act of 1933. I believe it was originally a period of four months, but has been reduced to three months. The Duncan Commission themselves recommended the reduction. During the embargo periods the price of fish rose steeply and sharply, and that may have been the intention, and if there is to be a general embargo, operating over the whole year, and determined by one or two monopoly companies, clearly the public interest will be considerably affected. I noticed that the Minister spoke about the need of protecting the public interest, and said it was the primary concern. If that be so he

  619
  must exercise the utmost prudence and caution in relation to conferring monopoly powers on any of these undertakings.
  On this question of the embargo certain submissions have been made by the fish friers' section of the industry, a highly commendable section of the community. Incidentally, I would observe that 51 per cent. of the total catch of white fish landed in this country is taken by the fish friers. Of that total catch a high percentage is cod—I think it is 60 per cent., although on that figure I am open to correction—the friers take 80 per cent. During the embargo periods from 1933 to 1936 it was found that the trawler section of the industry received 1,394,844 more for 24,651 cwts. less of white fish. If that is to be the effect of limitation, and limitation on an extensive scale is necessarily implied in this Measure, then clearly effective checks and safeguards must be provided for the public.
  Now I should like to turn to what we on these benches regard as perhaps the most important part of this Measure, and to refer to the actual catchers of the fish. No one will doubt the hardships which these men undergo, the penalties imposed upon them by the nature of the occupation and the absence of home life, and, over and above that, the penalties to which they are liable for failing to join their vessels. In this last respect they are unlike workers on land. If a man whose occupation lies ashore fails to turn up some morning he may run the risk of dismissal, though more often than not he is exonerated, but in the case of fishermen, as with the men of the mercantile marine, failure to join the vessel is a very serious crime, and the men are penalised accordingly. One would suppose that in face of these adversities and penalties—the absence of home life, the irregularity of employment and all the rest of it—the remuneration would be on a very high scale.
  Those who do the hard work in the community ought to receive the highest pay. In this particular instance it is quite the reverse—and in other instances too, as I am reminded, but at the moment we are dealing with the catchers of white fish. Their remuneration is entirely out of proportion to the nature of their occupation. Let us consider their average earnings. I am not speaking of wages.
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  As the Minister said, some men are entirely on a share basis. That is the position in the case of skippers and mates. In the case of deck hands and the men who work below—like the cook, because these vessels always carry a cook, who is a very important person aboard—they are partly paid by wages and partly by receiving a share of the proceeds of the catch. But what is the position? The average earnings of these men, taking the position by and large and over the 52 weeks in the year, is actually less than £2 a week. Some men earn more, but usually less than £2 a week is earned. That is a position which no hon. Member can defend.
  One might have supposed that this Measure, intended to reorganise the sea fish industry, would have as its first objective the raising of the standard of life of the men upon whom the industry primarily depends. Often when the men return from a voyage, after undergoing great hardships, they find themselves in debt. The wife of a man receives an allotment of pay while he is away. When he returns he expects that from his share in the proceeds of the catch he will be in pocket; on the contrary, he is often in debt to the company. Debts accumulate, and sometimes extend over months and even years. It is a most serious position. Therefore, on the Committee stage we shall exercise the utmost care in dealing with the part of the Measure which primarily affects the fishermen themselves.
  I should also like to say a word on the provisions intended to create an effective check in regard to the settling of accounts. It is true that Clause 40 will improve the position as it exists now, but although a superintendent of the Board of Trade is charged with the responsibility of seeing that a settling account is rendered, which the men can examine if they wish to do so, it is equally true that men are very reluctant to apply to examine settling accounts. They know that if they are a little truculent in such matters there will be no more sailing out of Grimsby or Hull or any of the other ports for them. It is no use denying that, because we all know that victimisation exists. Perhaps the hon. Member who represents Grimsby (Sir W. Womersley) may have heard me say at the beginning that I assisted to organise fishermen years ago, and that was one of the difficulties with which we had to deal, and it seems to me that

  621
  Clause 40 might be considerably strengthened in order to meet the views of the men. There is one thing which the Minister can do without any difficulty, and that is to give the men a measure of representation on the Joint Council for the industry. It is intended to set up a council which is to consist of a chairman and representatives of the producers of white fish, of those who sell white fish by wholesale, of fishmongers, fish friers and of the curing, salting, drying, smoking and canning interests:
  "and any such other interests as the Ministers consider to be immediately affected."
  Do I understand that the fishermen are included in those other interests?
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: They can be.
  Mr. Shinwell: If they can be, ask the Minister to say quite definitely that they are to be, and that they shall be, if they can be, included among the other interests affected. We might as well have it stated in the Bill, and I hope that the Minister will act upon this suggestion. If the fishermen are represented on a council of this character they can assist not only in determining the actual remuneration but the basis of the remuneration and can have some say in the conditions of labour. They can voice 1.heir expert opinion, speaking with full knowledge of the industry, upon the general aspect of the industry as a whole. That is a very important point.
  I intended to say something about the consumers, but I shall leave that matter to some of my hon. Friends. I will now sum up the criticisms that we make from these benches. We have very grave doubts whether the Minister can succeed in removing the anarchy in the industry by the Measure now before us. There is a strong probability, I put it no higher than that, of excessive retail prices which will obviously affect adversely 1he consumption of fish. As it is our intention to facilitate means for increasing the consumption of fish and thus assist the industry, we must be on our guard against any steep rise in prices. There is, furthermore, the point of view of the fish friers upon whom a very large section of the working population depends for a commodity which it desires, particularly in the North of England and in the depressed areas. They may be compelled to pay more, as was the case during the embargo period, but they will pass that
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  Bill on to the consumers. There is no effective check in the Bill, so far as we can ascertain, against excessive commissions by the wholesalers; there is no clear-cut remedy for the transport difficulty and there is no assurance of higher wages and improved conditions for the men. Those are our objections, and for those reasons we propose to exercise the utmost vigilance during the further stages of the Bill. We wish to strengthen the Measure and to assist in bringing about an effective organisation in what is undoubtedly a most important national industry.
  5.18 p.m.
  Mr. Dingle Foot: As we have just heard in the speech of the hon. Member for Sea-ham (Mr. Shinwell), the Bill covers so many different matters that it is not possible for any Member to give an unmixed blessing to it or to pronounce a sweeping condemnation. At any rate, no one can possibly accuse the Government of undue precipitancy in dealing with this question. The Duncan Report was presented to this House in March, 1936. In February, 1937, the Minister of Agriculture, answering a question, said that the producers, through the British Trawlers' Federation, had represented that their case was too urgent to await the issue of the necessary long process of organising the distributive trades. He went on to say:
  "The Government … propose to introduce legislation which will enable such a scheme to be brought forward as early as possible."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 22nd February, 1937; col. 1629, Vol. 320.]
  That was nine months ago. The Government have taken a considerable time to make up their minds and to put into the form of a Bill the recommendations of the Duncan Commission. It seems rather strange that after they have taken all this time the House of Commons should be given only a fortnight in which we may familiarise ourselves with a Bill of this magnitude. That contrast can be justified only upon the supposition that the mental processes of the back-benchers are very much more rapid than those of Ministers of the Crown.
  With some parts of the Bill every hon. Member can agree, but there are other parts with which we are not able to agree with the same enthusiasm. I would first say a word about the commission. I understand that the commission are to have a dual function. First of all they

  623
  are to be a kind of permanent Royal Commission always having under review the problems of the industry, and, secondly, they are in certain matters to be the governing body of the industry. They are to be advised by the joint council containing representatives of the various sections. I welcome in particular the constitution of the commission because it represents a new departure in legislation of this kind. The commission are to consist of the persons appointed by the Minister. At last we are getting away from the principle contained in the Agricultural Marketing Acts of 1931 and 1933, and I welcome the change. We have realised in the last two years that when you set up a marketing board, with all the powers that we are accustomed to give them, the effect of their operations cannot possibly be confined to the producers, but are the concern just as much of the distributors and of other sections of the trade; and above all, of course, they concern the consumers. This form of constitution of a commission consisting of appointed persons and of an advisory council representing different sections of the industry is a very considerable advance.
  I would like to raise one point in order to get it clear. We know that the Commission have to advise the Minister, and to administer a fund and present an account to the Minister. Is it intended that the Commission shall be responsible to the Minister in all their operations and, through the Minister, responsible to this House? That is a question of considerable importance, and it may perhaps be answered later in the Debate. If it is so, we might require the same information from the Commission that we have required from other bodies set up by us. We may have to ask them to make an annual report of their activities which would be available to hon. Members of this House. At present the Commission are to be responsible for producing marketing schemes, and the regulation is to be carried out by a series of marketing boards. We cannot tell what their number is to be. The marketing schemes are to follow the procedure with which we are all familiar in the agricultural marketing schemes. There is to be the proposal for a scheme, the public inquiry and objections heard, the poll of the producers and, finally, the scheme laid before the two Houses of Parliament.
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  Addressing the House just now, the Minister laid great emphasis on the fact that there had to be an affirmative vote of the two Houses. It is precisely on that point that our main objection lies. It is true that there has to be an affirmative vote, but all that the Houses can do is to accept or reject the scheme as a whole. We have no power whatever to amend it. That has always seemed to me an indefensible procedure when we are dealing with marketing schemes, whether concerning the fishing industry or some branch of agriculture, in which we are setting up a board and giving them very considerable powers. We are passing Measures which intimately concern the livelihood of a large number of people. We are doing something of greater importance to a larger number of people than most of the Statutes that we pass through this House during the ordinary Sessions. It seems strange that whenever a scheme of this sort comes up it is impossible for this House to make the slightest amendment in it.
  I have listened now to a good many Debates on marketing schemes and I have heard supporters of the Government bring forward the most pungent criticisms of provisions that the schemes contained. I remember particularly on the potato marketing scheme how hon. Member after hon. Member got up on that side of the House and criticised some feature of the scheme; yet it was quite impossible for the House to give effect to its criticism in the Division Lobby except by rejecting the scheme as a whole. It seems to me that the best way in which the Bill could be improved is by putting in a provision enabling the two Houses not only to pass the schemes but to amend them as well.
  In the light of that criticism I ask hon. Members to consider what these schemes may contain, remembering that if we pass the Bill as it stands now we lose practically all control over these schemes. The House is always very reluctant, naturally, to reject a scheme outright, but unless we are prepared to do that we have no control over these schemes in the future. Perhaps hon. Members will look at Clause 9 of the Bill. It deals with a system of licensing producers, and hon. Members will see in it the following words:
  "No provisions contained in a producers' marketing scheme by virtue of the preceding

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  subsection shall be of any effect unless provision is also made by such a scheme—
  (a) for securing that the grant of a licence under the scheme shall not be refused, except—

  (i) on the ground that, in the opinion of the board, a sufficient number of licences are already in force, regard being had to the demand for white fish, or

  (ii) on such other ground (ii any) as may be specified in the scheme."

  We ought not to be asked to legislate in that way because we have not the faintest idea what will be specified in any scheme brought forward, and we cannot tell on what grounds licences may be granted or refused. I shall be told that where a licence is refused there is the right of appeal to the Commission and there is, in a sense, but if hon. Members will look at paragraph (d) on page 12 of the Bill they will see that the scheme itself determines the powers exercisable by the Commission on any such appeal. There again, we are told that there is a right of appeal, but it is impossible for us to tell at this stage exactly how considerable that right will be.
  Thirdly—I am just taking these one or two actual examples—Clause 12 deals with the penalties for breach of the scheme. It is laid down in paragraph (c) that a marketing scheme may provide
  "for requiring the board to impose on, and to recover from, any person registered under the scheme who contravenes or fails to comply with any provision of the scheme, such monetary penalties as may be specified in the scheme."
  There is the greatest objection to a provision of this kind.
  It frequently happens in this House that we give to a Minister powers to make orders or regulations, and we generally adopt one of two forms of procedure. We either specify in the Act itself what the penalty shall be for a breach of these regulations, or, alternatively, we say that the penalty may be increased under the regulations to an amount not exceeding a certain figure. Here we are giving whoever has the responsibility of drafting the scheme the power to put any kind of maximum, or it may be no maximum at all, in the scheme. This principle was raised in the House about two years ago, when a Bill was before us dealing, I think, with the question of a clearing house in connection with German debts. I remember that it was then proposed
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  to give a certain Government Department the power to make an order, and it was laid down in the Bill that the order itself should prescribe what the penalty should be for a breach of the order. Attention was drawn to that, as, if I may say so, attention is always drawn to these matters, from this part of the House, and, after a very long Debate, in which Members of all parties took objection to this kind of legislation, the right hon. Gentleman who is now Prime Minister, and was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, agreed to delete those words from the Bill.
  That was the last occasion on which the principle has been considered by this House, and the House showed very clearly that it objected to legislation of this character. I have given three examples of things to which many hon. Members would take exception, but which we shall not be able to prevent if this Bill goes through in its present form, so that we have to give simply an affirmative assent or to negative a marketing scheme.
  I come now to a more controversial aspect of the Bill. There are three provisions dealing with the limitation of production. In the first place in Subsection (1) of Clause 6 these words appear:
  "Any person carrying on that business in Great Britain is entitled, on application made by him in that behalf, to be registered under the scheme as carrying on that business."
  I think we might be told a little more as to what exactly is meant by these words. They might very well be taken to mean, and I think that probably they are intended to mean, that whereas people who have been carrying on business are entitled to register, it will be possible to keep any newcomer from entering the industry. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. I am grateful for the assurance. I took it that that was the intention. But, even if it is not possible under that Clause, it seems to me that it probably would be possible under Clause 8 which provides that a marketing scheme may contain provisions
  "for determining from time to time—
  (i) the quantity of white fish which may be sold by any person registered under the scheme."
  That, clearly, is a provision for the limitation of production. Every person is to have his standard quantity, whatever it

  627
  may be, so that under the scheme it would be possible to limit the total output of the industry. Finally, in sub-section (1, c, ii) of Clause 9, powers are taken
  "for limiting the quantity of white fish taken by the boat (either in any waters whatever or in any particular waters) which may be landed from the boat in Great Britain or any part thereof on any particular occasion, or the number of landings of white fish from the boat which may be effected in Great Britain or any part thereof during any specified period."
  There we have two powers—the power to determine how much any person shall be allowed to sell, and the power to determine how much fish any boat shall be allowed to catch. I agree here with the observations of the hon. Member for Seaham. This is obviously the most important part of the Bill, and I think the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill might have told us something more about the methods he has in mind.
  What are these provisions for? It seems to me that there are two possible objects. The first would be to prevent over-fishing. I think it will be agreed in all parts of the House, and it has been frequently stated from the Treasury Bench, that the North Sea is being over-fished. I have not any exact statistics, and I doubt if they are available, but it seems to me that soon that will not apply to the North Sea alone, and that we shall soon find, if we go on as we are now, that the more distant waters also are being over-fished. I have been told by trawler skippers that the quantity of fish which they are catching in the middle waters around the Faroes is considerably less than it was a few years ago, and that the difference, at any rate between now and, say, 15 or 20 years ago, is observable even in the waters off the coast of Iceland. It seems to me that that is due, not only to the increased catching capacity of the trawlers, but also to the increased capacity of the trawlers to find out where the fish happen to be, largely as the result of the installation, at any rate on the larger and newer trawlers, of wireless telephones.
  In the summer of last year I spent some time on one of the trawlers going out from Aberdeen. I remember that we arrived off the west coast of Myggenaes, the westernmost of the Faroe Islands, having caught no fish, or only very few, off the North Islands. Off the west coast, however, we found that there were fish. The first night we were there, there was
  628
  no other boat in sight, but the news went out to the other boats in the fleet, which got into telephonic communication with our boat the next morning, and no doubt there were boats in other fleets which were also able to pick up the information, so that the next night I was able to count the lights of no fewer than 30 trawlers, all of which had arrived within 24 hours on the news that fish had been found in this particular part. It seems to me that this process of over-fishing will not only affect the North Sea, but will in the long run affect these more distant waters as well.
  The suggestion has often been made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) that the Government should consider the advisability, not merely of closing the western waters round Bear Island, where, after all, there is no shortage of fish, but should consider the advisability of closing at any rate certain parts of the North Sea during certain seasons of the year. I know it is not a very easy thing to do, but it seems to me that the Government ought to be making endeavours to reach an international agreement on this subject of the fishing of the North Sea. I want to make it perfectly clear that, as far as my hon. Friends and I are concerned, we should not object to a measure designed to cut down the number of fish that are caught in order to prevent the over-fishing of the North Sea and other waters; and if these powers are being taken with a view to an international agreement to limit, say, the quantity of fish to be taken from the North Sea, we should not have any objection to offer. But the right hon. Gentleman has not said anything at all on that point, and I can only suppose that the aims he has in view in this part of the Bill are quite different, that it is not directed to preventing over-fishing, but, as the hon. Member for Seaha.m says, to establishing something in the nature of a statutory monopoly. It is clear as regards this part of the Bill that I and my hon. Friends on these benches could certainly not give our support to a Measure designed to apply to the fishing industry the vicious principle of limitation of output which was first brought in in the Agricultural Marketing Act of 1933.
  I have been referring hitherto to the problems of the North Sea. I should like, if the House will bear with me, to make

  629
  one brief reference to another part of the country, in which I have a certain interest, the district of Devon and Cornwall. We shall no doubt have many references to the Duncan Commission. The Duncan Commission referred specially to the inshore fishermen of Devon and Cornwall. On page 33 of their Report they said, speaking of Local Sea Fisheries Committees:
  "We would suggest that the Ministry—which has always shown a dose interest in the inshore fisheries—should initiate a marketing investigation with special reference to the Devon and Cornwall fisheries, enlisting for the purpose the help of someone of standing and experience in Billingsgate market. We are not willing to assume that, within the structure of an organised white fish industry, these inshore fisheries, with their reputation for freshness, cannot find an economic outlet, provided the various interests sink their individual prejudices and lend themselves to real co-operative effort. We have it in mind that, if a wide enough scheme for area cooperation can be devised, embracing all the fishings of Devon and Cornwall, the Ministry might render financial support to the organisation for a limited period, until it can take its place in any wider marketing scheme that is arranged for the industry."
  That recommendation—surely not a very difficult one to carry out, at any rate as regards inquiry—was made 18 months ago, but, so far as I know, no inquiry of that kind has been carried out. Perhaps whoever replies will tell us why that particular recommendation with regard to Devon and Cornwall has not been implemented. Certainly that is a part of the country in which some assistance is needed, because, in Cornwall at any rate, there is a very large number of fishermen who have been accustomed to depend upon a foreign market, the French market and they have been hit very hard by the restrictions which have been placed on the import of fish into France. It is not entirely a coincidence that those restrictions, which have had such a depressing effect on the sea fisheries of Cornwall, have been nearly all instituted since we ourselves became a protectionist country.
  With regard to Clause 54 of the Bill, to which the Minister drew special attention, I should like to point out that this Clause provides that, if a skipper is convicted of an offence against a by-law of a local fisheries committee, and if he has been convicted of a previous offence of a similar character within the previous two years, or has been twice convicted of such an offence within the previous five years, the penalty is to be laid on the
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  owner who employs him. That reproduces what I have always thought was the most unjust and harsh provision contained in the Illegal Trawling Act of two years ago. It means that, if a skipper has been convicted of an offence, he is not only penalised for that offence, and whatever fine or other penalty may be thought proper is imposed upon him, but it is also made known that any owner who employs him, at any rate within a period of two years, will do so at his peril. That means, of course, that not only is the appropriate penalty imposed upon him, but probably he will be deprived of his employment as well. However great the offence may be, it seems to me to be very undesirable that in this legislation we should introduce into our law the principle of vicarious liability, making a man answerable for something which may be done a long way away, which may be done against his orders, and of which he may have no knowledge whatsoever.
  Finally, I should like to say a word about the question of small fish. We shall all agree, as the whole House agreed in 1933, as to the desirability of having a larger mesh for nets. We are all glad to know that it has been possible to reach a certain measure of agreement on that question. But I was rather sorry to hear that the provisions as to the landing of small fish have been strengthened. After all, anybody who has ever seen the operation of trawling being carried on knows that, however large the mesh may be, it is impossible to avoid catching a considerable quantity of small fish. As soon as you have started to trawl, you get the larger fish filling up the body of the net, and smaller fish are inevitably caught. It is laid down that they have to be returned to the sea, but, of course, they will he dead long before they can be sorted out and shovelled back into the sea.
  I mention this because in Dundee we used to have for many years a particular trade in these small fish. The fishermen did not trouble to gut them. They brought them ashore as they were, and they were sold at very low prices to the poorest people. That was a blessing, at any rate, to those people, and that trade had to be entirely destroyed as a result of these provisions. I should have thought it would not have been beyond the ingenuity of the Ministry of Agriculture and

  631
  the Scottish Office to devise some method by which it was possible to check the size of the mesh without preventing the landing and sale of those small fish which must inevitably be caught and killed, whatever the size of the mesh may be. My hon. Friends and I do not propose to oppose this Bill as a whole. There are many parts we welcome, particularly in Clauses 3 and 4, but we reserve our right to attempt to improve parts of the Bill.
  5.47 p.m.
  Sir Douglas Thomson: I am very glad to be the first back bencher on this side of the House to thank the right hon. Gentleman for this Bill. The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), possibly suffering from jealousy because he was not able to introduce the Bill himself, made a number of points against the Bill, but I do not think he really considers it a bad Bill. So far as Aberdeen is concerned, all sections are very grateful indeed for the Bill. I wish I could feel that the people in the country, and even hon. Members in this House, realise how very seriously hit the fishing industry has been. Mention has been made of the second report of the White Fish Industry Commission. That report made it perfectly plain that the industry was facing bankruptcy, and it is two years since the report came out. In Aberdeen the average price—and I hope that if there are to be marketing schemes, no average minimum price for all fish will be laid down, as average prices for fish are rather dangerous things, but rather that the various types of fish will each have their own individual prices—in 1934 went down to 2.25d. per lb. The report shows prices of 1929, 2.51d.; 1930, 2.14d.; 1931, 1.93d.; 1932, 1.83d.; 1933, 1.84d.; and 1934, 2.25d. At present the price is approximately 2d. a lb. At the same time the crews' wages must have gone down, and the losses to the trawl-owners must have got greater owing to enormous increases in costs. In the White Fish Industry report, Aberdeen showed the worst result of any of the big trawling ports. The price of fish has gone down since the report, and average costs have gone up. My hon. Friend said that the price of coal has gone up 5s. a ton. I should have thought it would have been more nearly correct if he had said 10s. a ton. Everything connected with the running of
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  a trawler has gone up by 20 per cent., 50 per cent., or even 100 per cent.
  With regard to the position of Hull and the activities there, those concerned with the near waters feel that Hull has been responsible, to a great extent, for the price of fish having sunk disastrously. My hon. Friend the Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Law) will, no doubt, refer to that. I do not know what the prices at Hull are, but if we take even the figures given in the White Fish Industry report, we see that at present the distant water trawlers going out from Hull cannot be making a profit owing to increased costs. In this Bill the near waters and middle waters do see some chance of regulation. We feel that difficulties are due in a great measure to the increase of landing of cheap and inferior white fish from other places. Since the report came out the landings in Hull have gone from 4¾million cwts. in 1934 to 5⅓ million cwts. in 1935, 6¼ million cwts. in 1936, and 7 million cwts. (on an estimate) in 1937.
  No doubt, so far as the industry in Hull is concerned, the big distant water trawlers are a better financial proposition. No doubt, also, one big trawler going from Hull is a better financial proposition than three small trawlers, but there is no doubt that the quality of the fish suffers very severely in large trawlers. The crew, I think, are undoubtedly unable to clean, gut and ice the fish properly. There is no doubt that the fish does arrive stale and dirty, and it is badly looked after. I do not say that in every case the Hull fish arrives in this condition, but it is inferior to the fish which arrives at such ports as Aberdeen and Granton, and in some cases it is quite unfit for human consumption. They are killing the demand for fish by landing this inferior fish. They are swamping the market and reducing the price, and their only remedy has been to swamp the market more and reduce the price still further. So far as we in Aberdeen are concerned, we hope that regulation will come very shortly. It should be seen that this fish is landed in proper condition. I will mention one case where a trawler carried fish stored in the reserve bunkers next to the stokehole.
  Viscountess Astor: Think of the men who have to sleep there.
  Sir D. Thomson: Not the bunks—the bunkers. You cannot expect fish to arrive like that in good condition.

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  I would stress the very great importance of having the five Commissioners completely outside the industry. They must be people with knowledge of the industry, but to have people who are in any way connected with the industry would be disastrous. The joint Council is obviously a most important body, and the chairman must be independent. There is no provision in the Bill, so far as I can see, for any salary to the chairman. There is provision for payment to the Commissioners and the various officials of the boards, and I should like the Under-Secretary for Scotland to look into the matter of providing for the chairman. It is absolutely essential that a really first-class man should be appointed to that position. So far as the five designated businesses are concerned, I hope the Minister will bear in mind the difference between all sections of the trade in England and in Scotland and the difference between inland and port wholesalers. I should like to join with other hon Members who put forward the plea that share fishermen should he included on the Joint Council. I think the hon. Member for Seaham asked for share fishermen to be a "designated business." That would be hardly practicable, because every man in those businesses will have to be registered.
  Mr. Shinwell: That was not my proposal at all. I asked that they should be on this council as representatives of such interests.
  Sir D. Thomson: If they are appointed to represent such interests, I am sure they will have equal rights with representatives of other businesses. One other such interest which might be inchided is that of the by-products. If the marketing scheme is to raise the price, by-products ought to be represented. So far as salesmen are concerned under Clause 2 (3), I imagine the procedure in connection with salesmen varies in different ports, but, in Aberdeen, at any rate, they are not in every case employes of the trawl-owners. Apparently, they are assumed by the Ministry to be agents of the trawl-owners. In Aberdeen this is not always so, and it. is quite essential that their co-operation should be obtained.
  So far as the marketing regulations are concerned, I do not want to enter on a
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  number of Committee points at the present time, but there are a number of things in connection with which the procedure in the different ports varies. In Aberdeen, there is one practice to which trawler owners take very strong exception, and that is sharing in the market. I should like that to be borne in mind by the Minister. Under this practice, a number of merchants get together and agree to nominate one buyer, and, as a result, the price is kept unduly low.
  With regard to Clause 9, which relates to limitation of landing and quantities, I hope there is no contradiction, and that it will be possible to carry this out. If there is to be limitation of the number of landings, so far as I can see under this Bill there is to be no compensation, whereas if the trawler is to be laid up there is compensation. It seems to me that that is a contradiction, and that it might work unevenly as beween large and small owners. A large owner with five trawlers called upon to limit his landings as to one-fifth could up one trawler all right, but a smaller owner with only one trawler which he had to lay up for one-fifth of the year would receive no compensation.
  I welcome very much the prospect of selling schemes. If the indications of selling schemes are carried out, it will remove great difficulties, but I should like to have an assurance that any board which is being set up will not enter into business on its own account. So far as I can see, Clause ii might be read as providing that any marketing board might itself go into business and sell direct to the retailers. If there was any intention of reaching the Clause in that way it would cut out the port wholesaler and the inland wholesaler, and that would be a very undesirable thing. At the present time they arc co-operating wholeheartedly with the Government on the Bill, and if they felt there was any possible thought of cutting them out, their co-operation, obviously, would not be whole-hearted.
  I assume that the Minister will use all his powers to see that schemes are started. There is nothing in the Bill to say who is to initiate a scheme. If the producers have some sort of scheme, all well and good, hut, as far as the marketing side is concerned, I do not think that there is any scheme at present on the stocks. If

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  there is no scheme and if the industry obviously, as it does, needs some form of reorganisation, presumably the Minister will use all his influence to see that some scheme is brought forward, but who is to initiate the scheme is not clearly stated in the Bill. The Commission can or the industry can, but if neither of them do I trust that the Minister will use his influence with the Commission to see to it that they do.
  One point that has not been raised so far is the question of foreign landings. This probably does not come under the Bill, and is at the present time a matter to be dealt with under trade treaties. If a foreign trawler can come into a British port and land fish under the minimum price agreed upon by owners, the position of British trawlers will become an impossible one. If the foreigner could land fish under the British price, the merchants would obviously buy that fish and they would have to resell it to the retailer at the price fixed under a marketing scheme. Therefore, if he bought fish from a foreign vessel under the British trawlers' price he would make a very much larger profit than if he bought it from the British trawler. It would be a temptation to merchants to buy from the foreigner to the exclusion of the British trawler. If the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland can make any remarks on the subject in the course of his speech when winding-up the Debate, it will remove the biggest criticism of the Bill at the present time. No doubt it is a question that has to do with trade treaties, but can he give an assurance that if, and when, the trade treaties come up for renewal, a clause will be put in to say that foreign trawlers come under the same arrangements of minimum prices as our own British trawlers?
  Another point that arises is the evasion of the spirit of the original trade agreement by filleting, heading and boning the fish. I understand that it is possible to land 60 per cent. or more greater weight of edible fish if the fish is filleted, headed and boned. The original trade agreement was made in the belief that the fish would be landed in a whole state, but by filleting, heading and boning, foreign trawlers have been able to land approximately 60 per cent. more weight of edible fish than was contemplated. I think that the quotas from every country are
  636
  pretty well taken up, with the exception of Germany.
  The Minister of Labour at the present time is taking a census with regard to the family budget in respect of large numbers of people in this country, and I would ask the Minister of Agriculture whether he could not find out from his right hon. Friend how much fish is used, the type of families making use of fish and on what occasions the fish is used. We should then know what market there really is for fish in this country at the present time, and be able to see what we could do in order to improve that market. The marketing of fish in the countryside is not very good. Many hon. Members must have stayed during the summer away from a large town when it has been almost impossible to buy fish. Those of us who live near the ports and are used to eating fish probably take exceptional steps to obtain it. But the workpeople living in the country districts are unable to do so. I stayed this summer at a place within 20 miles of Edinburgh where there was no fish shop of any kind, and no method of obtaining fish. When numbers of people living within 20 miles of the sea have no possible means of buying fish unless they take an omnibus and ride 20 miles there and back, there must be something radically wrong. If the family budgets were looked into in order to see who eat fish and on what occasions, a very great deal might be done to improve the market for fish.
  The trawling industry has been very heavily hit by legislation which has been promoted since the War, notably that dealing with the coal industry. Trade treaties have been established to help the coal industry more than any other industry, and I hope that the small number of us who represent fishing ports will obtain the sympathy of those who represent mining constituencies, because we have been sacrificed in order to bring back a measure of prosperity to the mining areas. The mining industry is a most important one, and it is situated mostly in the depressed areas, and no one is in any way reluctant to do everything possible to help that industry, but we are entitled to look for a little sympathy and help when, in great measure due to the rise in the price of coal, we have fallen into difficulties. In

  637
  the White Fish report, on the first paragraph dealing with Aberdeen, they say that Aberdeen suffers from two distinct difficulties. One is the high price of coal, and that is owing to its geographical position unavoidable, and the other for the same geographical reason is the high cost of transport of fish from Aberdeen to the South. They go on to say that this difficulty has been to a great extent got over by the increasing use of road transport.
  Since these words were written the position as far as road transport is concerned has not improved. The licensing authorites, acting on legislation passed by this House, have been reducing very materially the number of licences for carriers who transport fish. Only last month or the month before a road haulage contractor in Aberdeen had his licences reduced in respect of the running of lorries. The development of road transport was one of the things that the Commisson held up as being a prospective help for Aberdeen, but this hope has been removed from us to a great extent by the operation of the Road Traffic Acts. It is to the railways to whom one has to turn, but there is no mention in the Bill that anything will be done to help with rail transport, which, as far as Aberdeen is concerned, is very high. The railways charge large sums for the transport of ice; 90s. a ton being the cost of carriage to London of ice that costs 10s. a ton, and in summer most of the ice is melted before it gets a quarter of the distance. The Hull merchant can get from 20 to 25 per cent. more fish in a box assessed to be of a given size, but in Aberdeen there is no such advantage. We have to pay for the weight of the fish in the box. We are at a considerable disadvantage in many ways, and we hoped the Bill would do much to remove those disadvantages.
  The Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill states that in the main the whaling section is necessary in order to enable the Government to ratify the whaling a greernents. I am not quite sure if that is as candid a statement as it might be. Clause 44, dealing with the whaling industry, says:
  "There shall he included among the classes of whales the killing or taking of which is prohibited by section three of the Whaling Industry (Regulation) Act, 1934 …grey whales and any such other species of whales
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  to which the provisions of that Act apply as His Majesty may designate by Order in Council."
  By Clause 44 we are giving permission to the Minister to prohibit at any moment the taking of any sort of whale. The whaling industry in this country is a very large one, and if it is within the power of a Government Department, by a stroke of the pen, to say that the whaling industry is to stop—for this is what it amounts to—it is rather a drastic power to hand over to a Department. Clause 46 (3, c)—the right hon. Gentleman made special reference to this in his speech—says:
  "the killing of whales otherwise than by a particular method."
  There is nothing regarding that in the whaling conventions. The only reference to it is made in the observations attached to the Whaling Convention. My right hon. Friend said that almost every Government, with the exception of France, had signed the Whaling Agreement. The ones actually are South Africa, America, Argentina, Australia, Germany, the United Kingdom, the Irish Free State, New Zealand and Norway. I do not think that Canada is concerned with whaling, and the most important omission is the Government of Japan … The Japanese have at the present time one 9,000-ton whale factory, and three 22,000-ton whale factories. If we enter into this agreement leaving out this very important producer and one who will probably produce more, we shall enter upon a difficult matter. If we include also in our Act of Parliament various observations of Governments which are not ratified elsewhere, we shall go very far towards tying up the whaling industry. I hope that before any alterations take place, either in the method of killing whales, or in the extension of types of whales to be killed, the industry will be consulted. Before any drastic alterations are made the position ought to be reconsidered by Parliament. It is possible for bureaucracy to wipe out the whaling industry at a stroke of the pen, and this House will have no say in the matter. I ask that the industry shall be consulted. Between 1934 when the Whaling Industry Act was passed and 1937, and when this convention was signed by His Majesty's Government, no representations and no consultations at all took place with the industry in this

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  country. When, this year, representations were made by certain sections of the industry in this country, they were informed that the agreement had already been signed and that it was now too late. The efforts of well-meaning and benevolent theorists in the Ministry, should at any rate be tempered with practical experience and knowledge.
  This Convention includes the provision that no sperm whale shall be taken under 35 feet long. I understand that this size is exceptional and that only about 15 per cent. of sperm whales are ever over 35 feet long. That, therefore, is virtually the exclusion of the sperm whale-catching. I do not know whether that was intended or not. With regard to the blue whale, which is the ordinary whale taken, the permissible minimum length was increased from 65 feet to 70 feet. Practical people say that it is possible to see whether the whale in the water is a small one or a half-grown one. It is possible to see in the sea that a whale is under 65 feet, but the permissible minimum length has been increased under the Convention to 70 feet, and it is impossible in practice for the men to see whether or not the whale they are taking is 70 feet long. It is somewhat cold comfort for the whale if, after it has been killed and brought to the factory, the gunner gets no pay for killing it. The industry ought to have been consulted before regulations of an impractical nature were agreed upon, and I trust that the Under-Secretary will give us some assurance that the whaling industry will be consulted before any further regulations are made.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. Garro Jones: The hon. Member for South Aberdeen (Sir D. Thomson) has raised some extremely interesting and important points, which I am sure will be further heard of in the Committee stage. When he said that all sections of the industry in Aberdeen welcomed this Bill he showed the same tendency to look at this problem in what I would describe, without offence, as the same warped way as the Minister. You can read 38 Clauses of the Bill before you come across any reference to the interests of the crews and the skippers. When I saw the draft of the Bill and I saw the word "producers" used as describing the trawl owner, I felt that that was straining language a
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  little far, but when the right hon. Gentleman went on to call the producers, who are the trawler owners, "catchers," I felt that he was straining our credulity too much. If I were to act on the same principle in the use of words, I should call the right hon. Gentleman a ploughman and the Secretary of State for Air a pilot.
  There is a tendency on the other side of the House to regard the fishing industry as those who have money invested in it and to forget and leave out of account altogether the vital and greater interest which is held by those who look for their daily bread from this industry. It was depressing to me that so enlightened a Minister as the right hon. Gentleman undoubtedly is, should go through almost the whole of his speech without referring to the interests of the skippers and the crews, who are the true catchers, and that it should be only at the end of his speech that he referred to them in order to make his peroration.
  I want to make a protest against the way the Bill has been drafted. The wording and the numerical order of the Clauses regulating the various marketing schemes appear to me to be in utter confusion. Although I do not ask the Minister to reply to my comments to-day, I hope that he will take note of them so that we may hear about this matter later. To ascertain the provisions of the marketing schemes in general, we have to study Clauses 5, 6 and 7 and then jump to Clauses 11 and 12, because the draftsman has seen fit, for no reason that I can make out, to sandwich in two Clauses dealing with producers' marketing schemes, followed by Clause 10 dealing with distributors' schemes. I will not go through the whole category of hurried drafting which I have written down in my notes, because every lion. Member can find out the evidence for himself.
  In the Schedules parts are referred to as Sections instead of paragraphs, just as if they had been juggled about in great haste, the Minister not knowing whether he was going to put in a provision in a Schedule or a Clause. It almost appears as if there were a number of marginal headings hurriedly put together and that the provisions of the Bill were made to conform to those marginal headings. This may be an uninteresting matter, but it is of extreme importance that every Minister who is responsible for the drafting of a Bill should see to it that every possible

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  ambiguity is removed before a Bill is printed for Second Reading, not only for the benefit of those who have to study the Bill in this House but because when the Bill leaves this House it may bear evidence of confused drafting which leads to misinterpretation, much difficulty and probably to a good deal of litigation. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to examine those comments at his leisure.
  Now I come to the proposals of the Government in the main principle of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman envisages the almost immediate submission of a producers' marketing scheme. He told us that he had allowed only one month for the producers to register under the scheme because they wished to expedite the launching of the scheme which they had already under consideration. I hope he will not allow any undue haste in the launching of that scheme. The horn. Member for South Aberdeen said that every section of the industry in Aberdeen welcomed the provisions of the Bill.
  Sir D. Thomson: Welcomed the introduction of the Bill. I did not say they welcomed every provision of it.
  Mr. Garro Jones: I am very glad to be able to draw that distinction. We now have it that all sections of the industry in Aberdeen welcome the introduction of the Bill, without committing themselves to the principles contained in it. That is to say, they are glad that something is being done. The point that I want to make is this, that the interests in Aberdeen, not only the interests of the men who are wholly dissatisfied with the provisions as they apply to them, but the near-water interests in Aberdeen are seriously alarmed at the prospect that a producers' scheme, dominated by the large interests in Hull, whose interests are in entire conflict with those in Aberdeen, is going to be rushed through to the detriment of those near-water ports who depend upon a better quality of fish for their trade.
  Under the Bill, in any ballot which is taken to determine the acquiescence of the producers, it is not a per capita vote, but a vote which appears to be based not upon each individual owner having one vote but upon the tonnage of cubic capacity of the trawlers he owns. Therefore, if one section of the industry, the Hull section, has a larger tonnage and larger cubic
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  capacity employed in distant-water fishing, and whose interests are in entire conflict with the near-water interests, is able to affirm or repudiate any scheme which is put forward, that will not assist the main object of the Bill. Whatever may be said by the hon. Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Law), who may tell us about the troubles of Hull—and no doubt they are serious—this Bill would never have been introduced to deal with the troubles of Hull. Its main object is to prevent the complete destruction of near-water fishing ports such as Aberdeen, Granton, Lowestoft, Milford Haven and others. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to see to it that having regard to the weight of influence of Hull—which may be described as the whale among the minnows, and who will certainly gobble up the interests of all the other ports if they are allowed to have their way—there should be a safeguard erected against their dominance over the marketing scheme.
  I have no wish to cast any aspersion on the class of fishing done by Hull, but there can be no question that Hull must take its share of the blame and responsibility for the depopularising of the consumption of fish. They have relied for a period of years upon ever larger catches and ever larger trawlers, taking their fish from ever more distant waters, with the inevitable result that the fish landed at Hull has been of ever poor quality.
  Mr. Muff: Question.
  Mr. Garro Jones: Every hon. Member who has given close study to this question must recognise that in the interests of the industry as a whole and even in the interests of Hull itself, unless fish is maintained in its line flavour and fresh condition, we shall never get that volume of fish consumption which we require to give employment and prosperity to the whole fishing industry. I should like to, read to the House one extract from a Government report, from the Ministry's own report in 1936:
  "The increase of landings from distant waters results in a depression of prices which is most severely felt by those who fish the near-waters and who land comparatively modest quantities of better quality fish."
  It is not only a question of the volume of fish caught by Hull, but Hull has certain advantages in the shape of cheaper coal and cheaper transport facilities, which strengthen Hull's power to destroy

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  the prosperity of every near-water fishing port. What does this problem finally resolve itself into? The average price received by the producer—I am willing to concede to the right hon. Gentleman the use of the word "producer" with reservations, but I hope he will not try to describe them again as "catchers," otherwise I shall always refer to him as a ploughman—shows that from 1934 he has not got more than 2⅛d. per lb. of fish landed. For cod he got an average price of 1⅓d. per lb. In 1937 for nine months he got 1·74d. as the average price for all classes of white fish.
  The problem of saving the near-water fishing industry is to raise the price from 1·74d. in a period of depression and 2⅛d. in a comparatively prosperous period, to 2¾d. If the right hon. Gentleman can get 2¾d. per lb. paid to the producer on all fish, the whole of the producing side of the industry would be satisfied as to their own profit and would be able with that very slightly increased price to give substantial improvement in the conditions of the skippers, mates and all who man the ships. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will focus his attention on that point.
  I want briefly to emphasise what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell). There can be no question that the difficulty in this industry, as in every producing industry, is to apportion between the various sections of the industry the margin between the price which the producer receives and the price which the consumer pays. It is the same in the coal industry, in the milk industry and in the agricultural industry. In all of them it is extremely difficult to find out how much each one takes out of it, and unless you are able to follow the price structure of fish as it proceeds from one hand to another you will never get at the core of the problem. I regret to say that the report of the Duncan Committee was completely cold on this point. They purport to give the structural price from the producer to the retailer, and on page 14 they say that the port wholesalers had a turnover of over £40,000, and got 17·3 per cent. gross profit on the price they gave for the fish they resold, and that their net profit was minus 1 per cent. At Billingsgate, that is the inland wholesaler, where they went next, they point out that they got 14·7
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  per cent. gross profit on the price they paid for the fish, and that their net profit was ·7 per cent. On page 40 of the report, which purports to give the net profit earned by the port wholesalers in 1934, you will find that Hull is supposed to have made a profit of 2·3 per cent. on its turnover, that is for every £100 it made a profit of 2·3 per cent. Grimsby lost ·2 per cent., Aberdeen made ·1 per cent., Fleetwood lost ·9 per cent., and Milford Haven made ·2 per cent. The average profit made by port wholesalers over the whole of the ports, excluding Hull, was ·1 per cent.
  That is really a farcical statement to anybody who knows anything about the industry. The hon. Member for Seaham drew attention to this fact. He said that whereas the average price received by the producer was 2·18d. per lb. in 1934 and according to my statement 1·74d. per lb. in 1937, by the time the fish gets to the retailer you have to pay anything between 10d. and 1s. 3d. per lb. for it. I should have thought that the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus), whose interests are those of the producer, would have examined this point a little further. In the price list issued by many concerns you will find the price of the fish before cleaning and filleting, and in a case like that there is a little to be allowed for wastage. Here is one which I have had from the Army and Navy Stores. The price of cod roes is 1s. and 1s. 2d., small whole fish 7d. per lb.—and they sell at less than 1d. per lb. in the market—haddock 10d. and 1s., and hake 1s. 4d. to 1s. 6d. The fish is charged for on weight before cleaning and loses weight after filleting.
  There is anything between 400 and 700 per cent. margin between what the producer receives and what the consumer pays, and unless you are prepared to find out where that goes this problem will remain on your hands for the rest of your days. There is a provision in the Bill to get every kind of information, to restrict the commission which may be charged by auctioneers, to restrict the prices of the fish, but on this vital point there is no provision in the Bill because you cannot restrict the amount of profit placed on the fish by the inland wholesaler and by the port wholesaler. I ask the Minister to deal with that point. Where is the provision to restrict the excessive profit which all sections of the

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  industry believe is being made by the port wholesaler and by the inland wholesaler. Unless you are going to find that out and stop the leak the problem will remain with you. Therefore I ask the Minister in the administration of this scheme to look steadily at the price structure and not allow facts to escape him.
  Let me add a few words about the crews. The House cannot possibly realise the conditions under which some of these crews are working at the present moment, not only white fishermen but herring fishermen as well. Their hours and conditions are more severe than the hours and conditions of any other employés in this country, without exception. Is it realised that it is common for the crew of a trawler to be 24 hours without any sleep, and in that time to have only 5 or 10 minutes to snatch their food? I know cases where they have been 30 and 36 hours without any sleep in all kinds of weather. Indeed, they often get much worse time in fine weather, when it is possible to fish, than in bad weather when it is impossible to tow the net. Not only the men but the skippers and mates suffer extremely. I have a list of the wages which are given to the skippers, and taking them over a period of three months the average for a week in fine weather when it is possible to fish is £2. 9s 6d., £1 18s. 5d., £3 1s. 2d.
  That is the kind of wage which skippers and mates are earning in this important industry in Aberdeen to-day. Some of them after two or three months fishing have come home without any pay at all to draw. They can make two trips of 16 days and when they come back they are in debt to the owner of the vessel for the food they have consumed on the voyage. What a home-coming that is! Does the Minister realise that they are reduced to desperate poverty not because of any laziness on their part or lack of hardihood, because their job requires the most sustained courage, and not because of any mischance, because they are accustomed to take the rough with the smooth; they are reduced to this desperate extremity of poverty on account of the folly of the economic system under which they are compelled to work, and I must add also because of the unenlightened administration of that system by those whose duty it is to administer it.
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  When I have attempted by various methods to secure some improvement in these conditions I have had strange reton from the Board of Trade. I pointed out that the conditions in one port were so severe that it was becoming difficult to get deck hands to sail, and the retort I got was that if conditions were so bad surely that was the opportunity for these men to negotiate for better and improved conditions. Everyone knows that the trawling industry in Aberdeen is not in a position to give improved conditions to the men out of its own resources. Moreover, the trawling industry does not lend itself to organisation, and if the Board of Trade are relying on the efforts of the men themselves to improve their conditions, it will be some time before they get what is their due. Being in port one week and out of port another it is impossible to get organisation, and they are the type of men who do not lend themselves to organisation. I hope the Minister will recognise that in dealing with this problem he has a particular responsibility and duty to deal with the crews as well.
  It is really amazing when one looks at this from an impartial point of view to notice the comparative tenderness shown to the profit-making interests and the casual and superficial way in which the interests of the crews are dealt with. Before any scheme can be made to affect the profit-making interests, a scheme has to be prepared by the producers, then submitted to the Commission; the Commission direct the producers to consult certain interests, the Commission must publish the scheme and invite objectors to communicate with the Alinisters, Ministers consider objections and consult the Commission, Ministers shall direct an inquiry into every objection and consider the report, publish modifications and invite further objections; there is to be a poll of registered producers, both Houses have to approve by affirmative Resolution; there is a consumers' committee, a committee to investigate reports which the Minister may require the board to amend; and finally the scheme can be revoked by the Minister.
  What an elaborate piece of machinery to set up to protect those who are making a profit, but when you are remedying an injustice inflicted upon the men all that is provided is that they are going to have an account of the settling sheet given

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  them, and they can complain if they like. The hon. Member for Grimsby (Sir W. Womersley) was not well informed, because from my own experience if men make themselves troublesome in regard to their settling sheets it is not long before they find themselves without a job. There are many owners I know who deplore this practice as much as we do but, nevertheless, it is unsafe for any member of the crew to make trouble about his settling sheet. How does the Minister propose to deal with the position? He says that a superintendent of the Board 3f Trade will conduct an inquiry if he wishes. My experience of officials in the Board of Trade in recent years, I regret to say, has been that they lack initiative in these matters. They do not want to cause trouble, and I think it is vital that there should be some compulsory power to conduct an investigation into the accuracy of these complaints.
  Finally I want to make a suggestion that it would perhaps be wiser in the long run to deal with the fishing industry by a Ministry of Fisheries. It is not a large industry but it is an important one. The Minister said that the connection between the fishing industry and our national survival has always been recognised. If that is so, how does it come about that three Ministers with no very well defined responsibility are administering the fishing industry of this country through various ad hoc committees which are set up regularly every few years, the Herring Industry Board, the Fishery Board for Scotland, the various local fishery committees, and now we are to have the Sea Fish Commission and a Joint Council with various powers, a Consumers' Committee and a Committee of Investigation. Surely it would be better to attempt to bring all this complex and often overlapping organisation together and to establish a Ministry of Fisheries. It is not the magnitude of an industry that should decide whether or not it is entitled to a separate administration; it is its importance to the community. I think the Minister recognises that the Commission which he intends to set up will be, in effect, a temporary Government Department, not provided with a Minister, it is true, but subject to the interference of three or four different Ministers. Would it not be better to go the whole way and to bring forward a
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  proposal for the establishment of a Ministry of Fisheries? I believe that in the long run that would be the best way to organise this industry, and I hope it may not be too late for the Minister to give his consideration to such a policy.
  6.46 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Law: The hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) began his speech by saying that he had read 30 or 40 Clauses of the Bill before he had come to any reference to fishermen. With due respect to the hon. Member, I maintain that that is a completely misleading statement. It is true that the word "fishermen" may not appear in those pages, but the hon. Member is so fond of fine verbal distinctions, as in the case of "producers "and" catchers, for instance, that he entirely escapes the reality which underlines this Bill and the whole issue. Every Clause in the Bill has reference, directly or indirectly, to fishermen. The hon. Member himself admitted that towards the end of his speech, when he said that he had been looking at the accounts of several skippers and mates in Aberdeen and had found that over a long period they had had an average weekly wage of practically nothing. The fact that those men who share in the enterprise were getting that miserable wage is indicative of the condition of the industry as a whole on the producing side. If, by this Bill, or by any other method, the profit-making capacity of the industry can be raised, it will automatically follow that the wage-earning capacity of the skippers, mates and fishermen will also be raised. In so far as the Bill succeeds in its object, it will give to direct financial benefit to the workers engaged in the industry.
  I do not feel any very great enthusiasm for the Bill; nor do I think anyone can feel much enthusiasm for the idea of confining within the framework of a Bill of this nature the enterprise and spirit of adventure which characterises the fishing industry and which has really produced it, as we know it to-day. I do not think it is at all desirable that we should do this, but it is absolutely inevitable. I am sure that if the measure of regulation provided in this Bill were not put in hand immediately, there would be not merely a decline in the industry—indeed, there is a decline at this moment, for it is not

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  of many great industries that one can say that they are very much worse off to-day than they were during the world depression, which is the case in the fishing industry—but a collapse on a huge scale, involving not only millions of pounds of capital, in which apparently the hon. Member for North Aberdeen is not interested, but thousands of human beings as well. The purpose of this Measure is as much to serve those human beings as it is to serve the capital.
  Both the hon. Member for North Aberdeen and the hon. Member for South Aberdeen (Sir D. Thomson) made a great deal of play about the iniquities of Hull, and both of them, with greater or less firmness, assured the House that the real cause of the difficulties of the fishing industry was that Hull was selling stinking fish. I think that is far too simple an explanation. I would like the hon. Member for North Aberdeen to take me to his division and show me the old tin kettles that go by the name of trawlers there, and I would like to take him to Hull and show him there the magnificent vessels of the latest design, with every kind of safety appliance, such as wireless direction-finders, wireless telephones, wireless sounding machines, and so on. Then I would ask him to explain how it is that the selling of stinking fish produces such vessels in Hull and the selling of first-class fish produces the vessels which they have at Aberdeen. Some more elaborate explanation is needed for that situation. Of course, the real difference between Hull and Aberdeen, as both hon. Members know, since they have read the report of the Sea Fish Commission, is that, as the Commission pointed out. there is an air of efficiency, self-confidence and organisation in Hull which does not exist in other ports. I think one can make a great deal too much of this talk about Hull reducing the whole industry to a state of complete defencelessness and collapse. It simply is not true. Nevertheless, I must admit, in fairness, that there is something in the point of view expressed by both hon. Members, although they very much exaggerated the position and painted it in much too lurid colours.
  I would like to put the matter to the House in this way. Hon. Members will be familiar with the story of Samuel Butler entitled "Erewhon," which portrays an imaginary country where there
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  is no machinery, because at some time in the history of the country machinery got such a hold over the people that there was a sort of civil war between human beings and the machine, and machinerywas turned out of "Erewhon." Very much that kind of thing has been happening, particularly during recent years, in the fishing industry. Enormous and efficient fish-killing machines, as my right hon. Friend described them, have taken control of the industry and are driving human beings in the industry in a way which is intolerable. These boats, which are very expensive to build and to run, have to cover expenses, and the only immediate way in which they can do so is to get in as much fish as they can, irrespective of its quality. The one thing on which they have to concentrate, for it is the one advantage which they have over their competitors, is to catch much more fish and to get it in more quickly.
  The existence of these boats, and the completely unchecked competition between them and in building them, means that there is a desperate drive all the time to get more and more fish. That is something which I believe everybody connected with the industry recognises. The necessity of covering expenses by getting more fish means that no regard is paid to the quality of the fish that is brought in. And an important point is that not only is there the drive to get more fish, but the human beings on the ships are being driven by the ships themselves to work longer hours, in more severe conditions, than would be the case if there were some regulation. During last week-end I was talking to an old fisherman in Hull, and he told me that he had been told by his son, a mate on one of these big ships, that within the last 12 months the character of the skipper had completely changed and that the man, driven desperately by the necessity of making the ship pay and of getting vast quantities of fish, had become an absolute slave-driver. I am sure that is an element in the situation which this Bill will prevent. If the building of these enormous vessels and competition between them can be regulated, there will not be this urge to drive the men to the utmost limit.
  The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot), and the hon. Member for North Aberdeen have criticised the Bill

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  on the grounds that it gives the producer, as such, a privileged position and that it is establishing a producers' monopoly. I do not think there are any serious grounds for that belief. The producer, under this Bill, has not the power which the producer has under the agricultural marketing Acts, and it is very desirable that he should not have it, of dictating the person to whom and through whom he should sell his product. Incidentally, although the producer is not given that power, it looks as though, under Clause 11, Subsection (d), there is to be established a statutory buyers' monopoly. I cannot see any more reason for having a buyers' monopoly than for having a sellers' monopoly, and if my interpretation of that Sub-section be correct, I very much hope that the Sub-section will be deleted at a later stage of the Bill.
  It is true that the Bill gives the producers power to fix a minimum price for their fish. I do not think that is a power to which either the distributor or the consumer will object. It has been exercised at Hull for a very long time past. But if that power is given to the producer, the minimum price ought to be the same at every port, because the wholesaler at one port will have an advantage over the wholesaler at another if at the first port he is working under a lower minimum price. It is true that the Bill gives the producer power to restrict production, to say how much fish he will land, how much fish he will put into his ship, and so on. If anything is to be done by this Bill, the power to restrict production must be given to the producer. Almost every trouble from which the industry is suffering to-day is due to unregulated production, and as the hon. Member for North Aberdeen said, unless the producer is given some power to regulate production, there cannot be any improvement in the quality of the fish, in the conditions in which the people are working or in any other respect.
  It is not the purpose of the Bill to improve the condition of the industry and of the producer by creating an artificial scarcity. Its purpose is to improve the position of the producer by creating a wider market and by offering a better commodity to fill it. In practice, I think that is all that the Bill can do. As to safeguarding the consumer from profiteering, there is to be a consumers' committee, a committee of investigation, and so on
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  There is, however, a much greater safeguard, and it is in the very facts of the situation. As my right hon. Friend said this afternoon, fish is a perishable commodity, and it is not an essential foodstuff. Any attempt at profiteering on the part of the producer will be met with swift retribution, for although he may try to benefit from the first attempt, he will not try a second time.
  There are, it seems to me, two very great weaknesses in the Bill. The first is one which has already been referred to by more than one speaker, and it is that there is no provision at all made for the regulation of the supply of foreign fish. The whole purpose of this Bill is to endevaour to regulate supplies to the markets of this country, and I do not see how that is going to be possible unless you can regulate the supplies coming in from outside the country. What will happen will be that the Board will have some scheme under way which will seem to be perfectly satisfactory, but then you will find the foreign producer holding up his quota month by month until probably just as the scheme is getting under way he will dump the whole accumulation, and thereby blow the scheme to bits. There can be no regulation in these circumstances. I know the hands of the Government are to some extent tied, but we are entitled to some declaration of policy on the part of His Majesty's Government to-night. We are entitled to know what they intend to do ultimately on this point. Do they intend to implement the proposals of the report, to put quotas on a monthly basis and abolish the system of commission sales on foreign fish, whereby such fish comes into the wholesale market with instructions from the foreign country that it is to be sold at 6d. or 1s. below the accepted British price? Do they intend to implement the recommendation of the Sea-Fish Commission that, for the purposes of the quota, filleted fish shall count as whole fish? I think we are entitled to know what the policy of the Government is on this matter.
  The other very great weakness, as it seems to me, is in the phrase "prescribed majority." I think it is true to say that under the Agricultural Marketing Act the majority by which it is necessary to carry a scheme or amend it is stated in the Act. But in this Bill the prescribed majority is that majority which

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  the Minister in his wisdom decides to be reasonable. That seems to me to be putting altogether too much power into the hands of the Minister. And it seems to me to be asking a very great deal of a very important minority interest in the fishing industry. The hon. Member for North Aberdeen told us that his great fear about this Bill was that we were establishing a producers' board for the benefit of the port of Hull, and that Hull with its great fishing capacity would control that producers' board to the detriment of other ports in the country. I am very much more afraid of the opposite effect, and I think that Hull is surrendering a great deal of its initiative to the rest of the industry and putting itself in a position which might become dangerous. The hon. Member knows that when the producers' scheme was originally published some months ago it was found that on the board there were three votes for the distant water interests, three votes for the near water, and three independent votes. On the face of it, it would seem as though Hull was on an equality with the near water ports. But it is not all the three votes that come from Hull. Some come from Grimsby and some from Fleetwood, where there is near water fishing as well as distant water fishing. Hull is in a vulnerable position, and I think that, in fairness to Hull, which has done everything it can to assist these negotiations—
  Mr. Garro Jones: My anxiety arises because the Government authority will not be the Marketing Board, but the whole of the producers will have the power to prevent the scheme from coming into effect.
  Mr. Law: By the prescribed majority?
  Mr. Garro Jones: Yes.
  Mr. Law: The catching power of Hull, great as it is, and the number of the vessels at Hull does not give Hull a majority over the rest of the country. Why I think it is dangerous is because we have heard something to-night of the feeling with which Hull is regarded by other ports. I do not think it is too much to say that other ports are jealous of Hull's efficiency, and Hull to that extent is vulnerable. It is to be tied and bound, and I do not think it is fair to ask Hull not only that it should come into the scheme, not only that it should
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  sacrifice a measure of its own independence for the benefit of the industry as a whole, but also that Hull should not know exactly what it is sacrificing until long after the Bill has become law. I think the Minister might well take the phrase "prescribed majority" out of the Bill and substitute a definite majority which will be known before the Bill leaves the House.
  Upon one other aspect of the Bill I want to say a few words. I do not believe that this Bill is a Bill for the restriction: of supplies but, notwithstanding this, it is quite obvious that there will be some restriction of supplies as one result of it, and I think that there should be something in the Bill to express what I am sure would be the will of this House, and that is, that any displacement of labour that there may be, any hardship which may be inflicted upon the workers in this industry, should be as little as possible. Hon. Members opposite suggested that there should be representatives of the fishermen, and I suppose also of the shore workers appointed to the joint Council. That is, I think, fairy but I am not sure myself that it would be practicable. But if that is not done by the Government, I think the Government should establish in this Bill some machinery by which the men on the one side can negotiate with the Producers' Board, or Distributors' Board it may be, and make any hardship that must be the result of the Bill as little severe as possible.
  I want to say a word on the question of the settling sheets and payment of crew's in Part IV of the Bill. Hon. Members opposite have spoken on that subject with great violence and, though I agree with them to a very great extent, I do not think they help their case very much by the kind of statements which they have been making. The hon. Member for Seaham, for example, in the course of his speech told the House, and the House was very much shocked to, hear it, that the average wage of a fisherman in a trawler was £2, or something like that. But the hon. Member for Seaham, although I think he did qualify his statement, did not make it at all clear to the House that the actual average earnings of the men would be very much higher than that if the industry were on anything like a normal basis such as we

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  hope to get by this Bill. He said a week. Well, an investigation was made some time ago in Hull, and the amount came to £5 a week, which is a different story. That £5 a week may have included certain allowances, and so on, but I am quite certain that the average earnings of a fisherman, as distinct from his wage, is nothing like the a week about which the hon. Member for Sea-ham spoke in his speech this afternoon. I do not think hon. Members opposite are doing themselves much good either with this House or the fishermen whom they are supposed to represent by making statements which everybody knows not to be strictly true.
  Mr. Garro Jones: My hon. Friend contests the truth or accuracy of the statement I made, but I read it from actual wages paid to skippers and men, and I refrained from making certain deductions. Those figures were actual representative figures taken in the last two months, and I will show them to the hon. Member afterwards.
  Mr. Shinwell: We have a list of the actual wages, and on that document the actual wages are two guineas a week plus twopence in the £, I think, net. The hon. Member forgot one point to which I referred. He should remember the irregular employment of these men. There is an extended period during which men are frequently unemployed, and if you take the average number of weeks during which men are employed and take the average earnings, it comes to less than £2 a week.
  Mr. Law: I do not think the hon. Member has quite got the point I wanted to make. I was not disputing the average standard wage, but the average earnings. That 2d. in the £ to which he referred, and oil money to which he does not refer, makes a considerable difference. I should think that in any time of normal prosperity in Hull it would on the average double it.
  Mr. Garro Jones: It is 2d. in the sterling, not 2d. in the pound of fish.
  Mr. Law: But it may make a considerable difference, and it is completely false to say that the average total earnings of the men are in the neighbourhood of £2 a week, because they are not when the
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  industry is enjoying even normal prosperity. It would not have been so a year ago. The point I was trying to make was that I sympathise a very great deal with what the Opposition feels on this question of the settling sheet. There is in the minds of the men a deeply-rooted suspicion that the owners of the vessels falsify their profit and loss account, in order to make the profit appear less than it is. I am absolutely convinced, from my own experience of Hull, that there is no justification at all for that suspicion. I know the Hull owners fairly well, and they are quite incapable of meannesses of that kind. I know, in particular, one very big firm where the owner takes his skipper and compels him to go through every account after the voyage to see with his own eyes that it is correct. In spite of that, I believe that in that firm 90 per cent. of the employes believe that they are cheated. If you have that atmosphere of suspicion and distrust—and you have it—it is very unfortunate. The question is whether the provisions in this Bill will actually dissipate that.
  The Bill is a very great advance, and I think hon. Members opposite will see that the provisions do represent a very great advance. But I am not at all sure in my own mind that they will dissipate this atmosphere of suspicion that exists and is so very harmful indeed. I fear that for this reason: It is true that you get the advantage of a uniform settling sheet, it is true that the settling sheet should be in a place where it could be seen by the crew if they want to see it, but, of course, the average fisherman is not capable of looking through a long account hung up on the wall and knowing whether that account is accurate or not. It is true that the Board of Trade is given a copy of every settling sheet and has the power to initiate complaints on its own responsibility, but I do not see how a Board of Trade superintendent can possibly initiate complaints when it involves going through hundreds of these settling sheets as they come in. He must still await, as he does to-day, people coming with complaints to him and pointing out what they think is due to them in arrears. Then he can investigate the complaint and tell the fishermen concerned whether they are right or wrong. But he cannot be expected to do much initiation in view of the mass of settling sheets which is coming in constantly.

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  On the other hand, if it were made obligatory on the Board of Trade to see to the signing-on and signing-off of men in the presence of a Board of Trade superintendent, that would clear away once and for all any suspicion that may exist about the signing-on of men and about the settling sheets. Inquiry can be made on the spot and there can be no ground left for the slightest suspicion. I know that objection will be taken by the owners to such a course on the ground of the red-tape and additional expense involved, and also on the ground of inconvenience to the men. But I feel convinced that if the Board of Trade really tackled this matter, it could deal with the men signing-on and off fishing boats just as it deals with men signing-on and off the big boats without imposing undue expense on the State, or undue inconvenience on the fishermen or the industry in general. If there is a case for signing-on and off in the presence of a superintendent on the big boats there is a far stronger case for doing it on the fishing boats, where there is the additional complication of share settlements. I hope that the Government will carefully consider the possibility of making compulsory the permissive powers which the Board of Trade is to have under the Bill as it stands. As I say, I do not regard the Bill with great enthusiasm but I do regard it as a determined effort to enable the industry to get out of the difficulties in which it finds itself. I regard it a s a courageous effort to give a measure of self-government to a big industry. I hope it will succeed, and I believe that if it has the support and co-operation Of every section of the industry, it has a good chance of success.
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. Adamson: The hon. Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Law) seemed, during his speech, to lose some of the optimism which characterised the earlier passages of it and the claims which he there made on behalf of this Measure. Although, in his closing remarks, his optimism revived a little, he nevertheless left the impression on the House of some incredulity about how this Measure is going to operate. He spoke very largely from his own experience of the more effective organisation of the industry in the port of Hull as compared with other ports, and I think it is admitted that Hull has faster vessels and fleets more
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  capable of bringing in supplies of fish than other ports. I believe also that, generally, speaking, the conditions of the fishermen in Hull are better than the conditions of fishermen in other parts of the Kingdom. But Hull is an exceptional case, and it would be folly to think that this Measure is merely intended even to protect what the fishermen have achieved up to now.
  We on this side of the House were hopeful that there would be some provisions in this Bill which would bring the industry into a more affluent state than it has been in for a considerable time. When the Minister was speaking the House must have felt some sympathy with him in the fact that he had received this heritage from his predecessors in office and in the fact that the Sea Fish Commission had been deliberating for practically four years on these proposals. Both in London and in a number of the fishing ports I came into close contact with the Commission. The members of that Commission tried to understand the problems placed before them, and went to enormous trouble to secure information from all sections. They tried to appreciate the point of view of the fishermen put forward by delegations of various trade unions and organisations, on many problems which concern not only the Minister's Department but the Board of Trade as well. It is to the credit of the Commission that they have produced a report which sets forth clearly the difficulties that will have to be surmounted by the fishing industry, together with recommendations as to how those difficulties are to be overcome.
  When we come to consider the Bill itself, however, there is some doubt in our minds as to what is actually intended by those who drafted it. I am inclined to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) that it is rather haphazard in its terms. I heard it referred to in conversation as "a Measure of circumlocution" and there is some truth in that remark, because it seems to go round and round and back again, before it ultimately gets to the objects which it is setting out to attain. The machinery of the marketing proposals is indeed such as the average Member of this House can hardly comprehend. It is difficult for any one reading the Bill to know what is the beginning of it or what is to be the end of it.

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  Nevertheless, speaking from the fishermen's point of view, we are prepared to accept the proposition that the marketing system, under the existing conditions of remuneration, must be put in order. It is the basis of the fishermen's livelihood and we are prepared, as we stated in our evidence, to accept the proposed machinery. After all, this is not Government machinery. What the Government are doing is to give enabling powers to the industry itself to organise marketing under the ultimate supervision and protection of this Commission.
  The proposal of the White Fish Commission to some extent departs from the practice hitherto adopted in Measures of this kind. It is quite different from the type of board which was set up in the case of the herring industry. It may be that behind this scheme there is the intention that this Commission may be of a more permanent character than other bodies of the kind which have been created. I am, however, inclined to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Aberdeen that it is supplementary in its character, rather than the kind of Measure which might have been adopted if we were establishing a separate fisheries department. Nevertheless, we believe that with the sympathy of the various Departments concerned and the active support of Ministers, the Commission, with the powers which it will have under this Bill, can accomplish a considerable amount of good. I am not now going to question the kind of representation which there will be on the Commission. I only hope that it will be selected according to capacity, and not necessarily on considerations of a business character alone. I hope it will not be concerned merely with questions of pounds, shillings and pence, but that it will take a keen interest in the human part of this problem.
  On Clause 2, which sets up the White Fish Industry Joint Council, I must agree with my hon. Friends, and to some extent with the hon. Member for South-West Hull, that there should be on this council representatives of the fishermen, not only because of the conditions of their labour, but because, generally, the fishermen themselves are either at sea or when they are in port are seeking means of relaxation. They have not the opportunities of taking a close personal interest in their associations which other
  660
  bodies of workers have and they must delegate duties of this kind to others who are able to represent them. In view of those conditions they should have representation. What may be called the saving portion of Clause 2 is the provision that "other interests" may be added to those specified in the Clause and I hope that the claims of the fishermen's representatives will be taken into consideration.
  Apart from the marketing proposals there is very little else in the Bill of importance to the fishermen except in so far as it concerns their desire for the general extension and development of the industry. When we see the type of vessels in use in the different ports to-day we must sometimes marvel that the industry can carry on under the present adverse conditions. I have seen some of those which the hon. Member for South-West Hull indicated were of the latest type, and I have compared them with those which are being used in such places as North Shields and elsewhere.
  There is in Clause 9 a provision which, I think, must have slipped in without much consideration. It is in relation to the producers' arrangements for the registration and licensing of vessels. Within these provisions is included the right of compensation where boats are put out of action or become redundant, and yet, although compensation may be given to the owners, there is no mention of either the skipper or the mate, who may lose their ship, and, because of the distinction between them and the remainder of the crew—for under the terms of their engagements, it is entirely a question of sharing the catch—they have nothing to fall back on in the way of unemployment insurance if they should he unemployed. With the redundancy of vessels, it is very unlikely, unless they can move to another port, that they can be accommodated with other employment. I trust that due consideration will be given to Amendments that we propose to move to remedy this defect. Actually the skipper and the mate are in the position of being dependent entirely on the going out of the ship. Their actual earnings depend upon the catch that they bring in. They have no wages to give them the qualification of wage earners in the ordinary sense of the term. Consequently they will be left high and dry, without possibly the prospect of another ship and without any opportunity of following other employment. It would

  661
  be a wise precaution that compensation, whether within the industry or from any other source, should be applied equally to the skipper and those who are dependant upon the share.
  Now I come to the provisions in Part IV of the Bill, and I want to say at the outset that we fully reccgnise the difficulties that beset the advisers of the Mercantile Marine Department of the Board of Trade in seeking to devise a settling sheet that could be uniform for application all over the ports. But when the organisations were giving evidence they submitted to the Commission a model settling sheet, and I understand that the Trawlers' Federation also submitted what they called an approved form, which the Board of Trade took into consideration. We believe that the safeguards laid down in this Part of the Bill will make it possible to devise, probably in some cases with local negotiations with the owners, typical sheets that will suit the various ports. To the ordinary individual who may never have seen a settling sheet, it would be amazing if he knew something of the charges that are set against the settlement for the fisherman ar d added to the costs of the ship. If I may enumerate a few samples, probably it will elucidate the matter to some extent,
  There is the cost on the credit side, first of all, of the remains of any stores, ice, salt, and other such provisions, after a voyage, but when we see the charges, such as the port charges, not merely on the tons of coal and the hundredweights of ice, but the commission on sales, the port charges for boxes and baskets, and even for the number of gallons of water taken out, the pilotage, the medicine chest, and innumerable other articles, down even to lamp wick, we shall have some appreciation of the attitude of mind of the fisherman who begins to calculate all those charges that are assessed against his share of the earnings, and the dilemma in which he finds himself even when he is faced with a copy of the settling sheet. In the past that has been rather the exception than the rule, and we are rather glad that the position has been overcome, very largely by conciliation and agreement on all sides to the extent that the particulars are not only going to be at the disposal of the skipper of the ship and the inspector of the Board of Trade, but also that they will be available for the crew. It will remove
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  some doubts that enter into the mind and some suspicions that are bound to be created when the men are faced with such problems.
  Within the last few days there has been another concession, which is not, of course, incorporated in the Bill, but which we believe has been agreed and a copy of which has been forwarded to me. It came from the Mercantile Marine Department of the Board of Trade, dated 8th November, and it arose out of some consultation with the various interests. There was some considerable misapprehension as to whether, following the sales at the port, there would be some certificate as to the actual sales added to the settling sheet; and although we appreciate some of the difficulties in the way of getting a certificate that would be accurate, owing to the fact that many of the salesmen are employed by the trawler companies themselves, and owing to other factors, such as difficulties in tracing many of these transactions, we understand from this letter that the point is fully dealt with in the Section headed "Form of Settling Sheet" in the note of the meeting which has been circulated, which has been amplified by the Marine Section of the Board, who say:
  "I am glad now to be able to tell you that the British Trawlers' Federation have agreed that details of sales should be attached to the settling sheet on a separate sheet on which will be entered the quantities of the different kinds of fish sold or otherwise disposed of, and the amounts realised."
  To that extent we are grateful for the deliberations of the Department. In connection with the Clause regarding permissible functions of superintendents, on the engagement and discharge of crews, I regret very much that it was not possible to get full agreement, very largely owing to the administrative difficulties of the Departments, but we are hopeful of the promises that were given, that should difficulties arise in the future such as have arisen in times past, those powers would be exercised. It will certainly be a considerable safeguard in the minds of the seamen if they can have the opportunity of realising that when they sign their agreements, there will be a witness of the Board of Trade to take some responsibility.
  There are other problems that, unfortunately, will have to be faced if the fishing industry is to overcome some of the difficulties that operate to-day. I will

  663
  touch on only two of these problems that we trust the fishing industry in its development can do something to overcome. The first is that, with all the hazardous conditions which the seamen have to face, probably the greatest is that of the uncertainty as to when they will reach the fishing fields and then when they are likely to get some rest from their labours. I will quote, from part of the evidence that we placed before the Commission, two particular instances of how this affects fishermen on the high seas. I have the names of the ports and the dates, if they are desired. Here is an instance from North Shields, which is probably one of the most backward fishing ports in the Kingdom, so far as the age of boats and type of fishing vessels is concerned. Here is a statement from one of the members of the crew of a boat:
  "The deck crew consists of six hands, including skipper and mate. During fishing operations all are required on deck. When towing the trawl occasionally four of these men can get below for an hour or so. Most of the trawlers out of this port fish on what is called hard ground. When a trawl is hauled, it is damaged to such an extent that it means hours of work to repair it. By the time this is done, it is time to haul the other trawl."
  Then there is an addendum:
  "We, the members of the crew of the above trawler declare that during a trip lasting six nights we were on deck 20 hours each day."
  I have a further quotation giving the full log of a vessel that went from Milford Haven. The actual trip extended over a period of 12 days. The actual number of hours on deck was 2131, which is over 17 hours a day. These are the conditions, particularly in the backward ports, which the men have to face. It is to be hoped that the marketing provisions and other provisions in the Bill will do something to obviate the pressure of these inhuman conditions.
  There is another problem which the industry will be bound to face in the near future. Originally there was the practice of apprenticeships in the fishing industry, but to-day it is practically non-existent. There are hardly any facilities for the training of lads and youths in the industry. It may be that there is a family tradition of fathers and sons through each generation going into the industry, but nevertheless there is a scarcity of young men anxious to enter the industry. They
  664
  complain of the conditions under which their brothers and parents have to work. I have a comparison as to the position in recent years in North Shields. The number of apprentices in 50 boats in 1929 was 30. In 60 boats in 1934 there were only nine. This means that the owners are either lacking in imagination in preparing for the future, or they are not giving encouragement to younger men to enter the industry and to grow up in this craft. After all, fishing is a craft, and one that takes years of experience before men can become effective and efficient seamen. Because of these conditions and the desire of those who represent the fishing fleets to see a return to something like prosperity in the industry, we are prepared to support to a large degree those measures that are designed to help it. Many of the Clauses in this Bill, however, must be drastically amended before it can be an effective Measure in the interests of the fishing industry.
  7.50 p.m.
  Mr. Loftus: The hon. Member who has just spoken will forgive me if I do not follow him into the interesting and detailed statement he has made of the conditions of hard work on board our fishing ships, but the time is late, and I propose to occupy as short a time as possible. The best that I can do is to put before the House the conditions in a home water port such as Lowestoft, explain what has caused those conditions, and inquire whether the Bill will in any way help matters there. My hon. Friend the Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Law) stated that Hull was envied by other ports. When at the beginning of his speech my hon. Friend painted a picture of Hull and of the huge machine which they had created destroying the men and the character of the men, I could not imagine any town or city envying Hull. This Bill of 63 Clauses and several Schedules is such a huge Measure that I will concentrate on the way it will affect the ordinary small fishing port dealing entirely with home water fishing. We have had comparisons between such big ports as Hull and Grimsby, but there is one comparison which nobody has made. During the last two or three years between two and three million pounds have been put into the building of new vessels for Hull and Grimsby, while in such ports as Lowestoft there has been no capital available for the building of new vessels.

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  These big long distance boats bring back at one fishing over 100 tons of fish, while the home water boats bring back only three, four or five tons at one fishing.
  The position of trawl fishing in Lowestoft and in many of the smaller ports such as Brixham is desperate. We have heard in recent years how desperate the herring industry is. I have drawn the attention of the House during the last three years constantly to the plight of the herring industry, and that industry has aroused widespread sympathy, and rightly so. I challenge denial of the statement, however, that the trawl industry of Lowestoft to-day is in a far worse position than the herring industry, far more desperate and with far less prospect. It is on behalf of the trawl industry that I am intervening. Ten years ago we had 78 steam trawlers fishing from Lowestoft; now we have 55. We had 126 smacks; now we have 28. We had six motor trawlers, and they have gone up to 23. The total number of vessels has fallen in 10 years from 210 to 106. The catch has fallen from £538,674 to £336,666—a tremendous drop. With regard to the men engaged in fishing at Lowestoft, I cannot give the figures for the trawl industry only; they are for the trawl and herring drifter boats combined. The number of men has fallen in 10 years from 3,740 to 2,790. The Eastern Daily Press," our admirable daily newspaper in East Anglia, in its issue of 76th November wrote:
  "The current year will be the worst on record for the Lowestoft trawl industry."
  The decline has been very heavy. The takings in 1935 dropped £100,000 compared with 1934, and the takings of 1936 were less than 1935 by £96,000. This year is worse than ever, and the fall in takings is going on.
  What I ask myself in considering this Bill is, what are the causes of the decline and catastrophe that have overtaken our trawl industry in Lowestoft, and will the Bill help? The causes are three. The first is the depletion of the North Sea caused, I think, by over-fishing. The admirable report issued by the Minister of Agriculture, which is, I think, largely written by the officials at the Fishing Laboratory at Lowestoft, states:
  "While fluctuations in the number of eggs plays a considerable role, this is exaggerated by present-day methods of over-fishing. Too
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  small a proportion of the fish survive to a marketable size. There were not enough fish in the area fished from Lowestoft to keep the landings at a profitable level.
  The North Sea undoubtedly has been, and is being, over-fished, and I think that Part II of the Bill will help considerably in that direction. There is much to be said for prohibiting the landing of small fish as proposed in the Bill. Plaice and sole spawn off the Yorkshire and Lincolnshire coast and are carried on the currents from the East Coast to Suffolk and Essex. Small fish work round and up towards the Dutch and German coasts where the water is shallow. There is a kind of shelf which juts out into the North Sea. If they can work round the shelf into the deep water, they grow rapidly and become fine marketable fish. What happens, however? The Dutch cutters who fish for the meal-making industry actually catch every year three to four hundred million tiny plaice and sole which are utterly unfit for anything except to be chopped up in the factory for meal. I take it that this will be stopped under Part II of the Bill. The German shrimping boats catch about 60,000,000 of these small immature fish and I take it that that also will be stopped.
  The second cause of the decline is the fact that there has been over-landing of fish, particularly at Hull. Although Hull fish does not compete directly with the home water fish, the enormous landings must tend to lower the price of all fish including the best quality home water fish. Here, again, I think the Bill will help. The third reason is found in the imports of foreign fish, and I wish to express the bitter disappointment of everybody connected with fishing in the port of Lowestoft that this Bill does not embody the recommendations in Part V of the Duncan Commission's Report. Their omission has been a blow to the whole port of Lowestoft. It is true that foreign fish amount to only 9 per cent. of the total landings of fish, but only 13 per cent. of our fish come from the North Sea and the foreign fish, which are high quality fish, chiefly plaice and sole, compete directly with the fine quality fish landed at such a port as Lowestoft. That fish does not compete nearly so directly with the Hull fish. The whole of the competition of this Danish and other choice quality fish from abroad falls mainly upon the port of Lowestoft.

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  Another point I desire to mention, and on which I particularly ask for a reply from my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, is this: In Lowestoft we do not complain so much of the quantity of foreign fish imported as of its intermittent, irregular arrivals. If the imports were spread out evenly we should not complain, because that would assist in creating a steady market; but what happens? In one week, or perhaps in one month, there will be very light supplies, and then, suddenly, an accumulated mass of quota fish is rushed to London. I will show the House the results, because they create a tragedy in our market on certain days. Let me take the six days from 10th September to 16th September inclusive, this year. The prices on those six successive days were 48s., 36s., 60s., 42s., 60s. and 48s. per kit. The landings of foreign fish on those six days amounted to 8,400 boxes, chiefly Danish and Norwegian. The average price in that period was 49s. per kit. Then take the position a fortnight later, during the six days from 24th September to 30th September. On those six days prices had dropped to 30s., 21s., 21s., 15s., 21s, and 18s. In the course of the same month the average had dropped from 49s. to 23s. The reason for that was that in the first week the foreign landings amounted to 8,400 boxes and in the other week to 18,000. I have masses of figures which I could give the House, but I will take another month, October. In one week the prices were 15s., 18s., 18s., 30s., 36s. and 30s. Why? Because in that week 20,000 boxes of Danish fish had been suddenly rushed to market. What I plead for is that the arrivals of supplies from abroad should be more regularly distributed. The Duncan report is clear and emphatic on that point. On page 63 it states that the importation quotas should be
  "operated on a monthly instead of an annual basis, without a carry-forward of a deficiency arising in any month."
  In the summary of recommendations it is recommended on page 79 that there should be:
  "A total importation no greater than the sum of the average landings of fresh white fish from all foreign countries during the years 1934 and 1935."
  It goes on to recommend the operation of each country's quotas on a monthly
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  basis with no carry over from month to month, and in the computation filleted fish is to be equivalent to full weight fish. At Lowestoft we thought that Part V of the Duncan Report was worth the whole of the rest of the recommendations, and speaking on behalf of the Lowestoft trade I say that we would sooner have those recommendations in Part V of the Duncan Report embodied in a Bill than have the whole of the present Bill. We have been told of the plight of the skippers and the others who catch the fish. I have a letter from a skipper's wife. He is a young man, married only six weeks and a good skipper, but his ship has been laid up owing to this sudden rush of imported fish. They are trying to build up a home, but cannot do it. Take another case. One week, owing to light landings of foreign fish, there was profit for the skipper and a bonus for him and for the other men. Four or five days later there was a sudden rush of Danish fish on to the market and the men were utterly disappointed because there was nothing for them. That is why I think we should get uniformity in the landing of imports.
  Clause 8 recommends that under the marketing scheme there shall be power to determine from time to time the quantity of white fish which may be sold by any person, and to determine
  "the price at, below or above which, and the terms on which white fish or any quantity of white fish may be sold."
  May I press my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to give me an answer to this: Does he think it is any use regulating the minimum price of fish caught in British boats if there is no power to regulate the price of imported foreign fish? If there is no such power I suggest that the provisions of the Bill on this point are useless. In Clause 9, dealing with the producers' marketing scheme, there is power to prevent the landing of fish from a boat
  "except under the authority of the licence granted by the Board in respect of that boat."
  But in paragraph (d) of the same Clause there is power for the marketing scheme to suspend the operation of a licence granted under the scheme in respect of any boat on the ground that a sufficient number of licences are already in force. I realise that the enormous catching power of Hull and Grimsby probably does,

  669
  need to be reduced by the laying up of some boats. That may well be necessary in the interests of everybody concerned, the crew, the owners and every body else. But why lay up the smaller boats fishing in home waters because there is over-landing of quite a different type of fish? If there is over-production of one commodity produced on a farm, why stop the farmer from producing another commodity in which there is no excess of production? I suggest that there is no occasion to lay up any boat fishing in home waters, because it is obvious that there are not enough prime quality white fish caught, seeing that we allow prime quality white fish to come in from abroad. There is another reason, and that is that at Lowestoft we have not sufficient buyers to-day. We have lost buyers. I think that in Committee we should consider the question whether any boat under 120 feet, or possibly under 100 feet, should be laid up under any marketing scheme.
  Then I notice that there is power to regulate licences for building boats, and again I suggest that it would be very hard indeed in the case of small ports which have lost a large part of their fleet, which have scrapped their boats, to prohibit them from replacing them by small, modern, cheap, efficient motor trawlers. I feel that the power of licensing should be very carefully used, and that certain types of boats should be excepted, say those under 100 feet in length. I have only one other point. I have referred to the dumping of foreign fish, and by dumping I mean not the importation of fish but these sudden rushes of foreign fish on to our markets. I have proved, I hope, the disastrous effect which they have had in our markets; but what will happen if all the foreign quotas are used to the full? To-day, the Dutch quota is the only one used to the fullest extent. The German quota is still unused to the extent of 183,000 cwts. The Iceland quota is unused to the extent of 175,000 cwts. Those were the figures on 6th November. You have these unused quotas for the remaining two months of the year, bigger than the whole Danish quota. Germany is building a new fleet of trawlers, and she might lower the value of her currency. The German quota is as big as, or bigger than, the Danish, and if, on top of the Danish quota, we got a maximum German quota coming in in
  670
  irregular shipments, I shudder to think what would be the effect on the market of our home waters fish. That is a point which the Duncan report recommended to be borne in mind and considered, but which has not been considered in the Bill.
  I welcome, on the other hand, the cooperative schemes for the inshore fishermen. They are a particularly fine body of men, but their numbers are becoming rapidly less. The number has declined enormously in recent years. I do not say that the, co-operative scheme in these Clauses will save them, but it will do good. How much good I am not yet in a position to judge; none of us can, but it is a step which does something for the inshore fishermen. They are an admirable type of small independent men who in many cases are the mainstay of the lifeboat crews. I have kept in the closest touch with all sections of the trawling industry in Lowestoft, with trawlers, skippers, merchants and owners, and I can only say that they are bitterly disappointed that the Bill does not carry out the recommendations which are contained in Part V of the Duncan report. They have looked forward to that with hope, and they are disappointed. They hope that the marketing scheme and the Commission will do good and will help to regulate the industry. They hope that the Commission may, when established, make recommendations to the Government that it is necessary to have the powers recommended in Part V of the Duncan report.
  8.18 p.m.
  Mr. Muff: I am always interested in the charming simplicity of the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus). The burden of his argument, in his lukewarm support of the Bill, is that we should close down or lay off the trawlers in, say, Hull or Grimsby, but on no account touch the trawlers in Lowestoft.
  Mr. Loftus: I would wish the hon. Member to get my argument clear. It is that Hull and Grimsby have been building but that Lowestoft has been scrapping, and that the fish in Lowestoft is of a different type and there is not enough supply of it.
  Mr. Muff: The Lowestoft trawlers appear to me to have been fishing in the North Sea for some years. They appear to have been guilty of over-fishing—
  Mr. Loftus: No. Grimsby, Danish and German.
  Mr. Muff:—to such a degree—I speak as a layman—that the fishing industries of Hull and Grimsby, acknowledging the sins of the Lowestoft fishermen in over-fishing, say, with great foresight, that they will build on a scientific basis. "We will go where the fish is and we will bring it to port as quickly as we can, "they say," and we will endeavour to supply the great needs of the industrial population of the Midlands and of Yorkshire. "I disagree with the hon. Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Law) in regard to the ferocity of the arguments put forward from this side—or from that side, for that matter—because the whole tenour of the Debate has been one of almost Sabbatical calm. Only on some of the facts emerge the jealousy and—I might almost put it—the envy of certain of the other ports of the foresight and statesmanship of the cheapest port in this Kingdom, the port of which I happen to be one of the four representatives.
  We are concerned with the prosperity of all the fishing ports in this Island, and if this Bill will not contribute to it, and will not put upon the tables of the workers of this country this nutritive article at a price which is reasonable, the Bill will not justify itself. The hon. Member for South-West Hull said that he did not greet the Bill with any degree of enthusiasm; he certainly cannot expect hon. Members on this side to fall upon the neck of the Minister of Agriculture and give him the kiss of gladness and grateful enthusiasm. I want to remind the House that the Department of Agriculture, like certain ladies, has a most unenviable past. We shall wait with interest to see the nominees of the Minister upon this council and this commission—call it what you will—which will have some semblance of control over the fishing industry.
  Remembering the past of the Ministry of Agriculture and the immediate predecessor of the present holder of the office of Minister of Agriculture, we think of a previous Act of Parliament which we now call the "Dear Bacon Act," and we wonder whether the Minister will do as was done in the past, put an unrepentant poacher to act as gamekeeper in seeing how much could be got out of the British public in the price of fish,
  672
  as was done with the price of bacon. Unless the Bill can protect, not simply trawler owners, those great corporations, powerful enough to protect themselves, but those who go down to the sea in ships and do business in great waters, I should not shed one tear if the Bill were scrapped and torn up. My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock (Mr. Adamson) made a point which I hope will not be lost sight of and which has been emphasised in my talks to the skippers and the mates of the trawlers in the City of Hull. It is that, during the time when they are laid up, those men are literally thrown upon the scrap heap. I do not know whether it is possible, but I wish it were, to bring within the ambit of unemployment insurance benefit the skippers and their mates.
  I want to call attention also to the men who work on the docks and to the inshore men who actually are not fishermen, but who make their contribution by seeing that the fish is expeditiously conveyed to the breakfast tables of the British public. In Hull alone there are, I believe, 2,100 men and boys employed in unloading, packing, and other processes connected with the fishing industry, and I am deeply concerned as to what is going to happen to them if this Bill turns out to be simply perverted rationalisation. We have had rationalisation in the past, a Bedaux system, shall I call it, to see what we can get out of an industry at the expense of the human element employed in that industry, and I shall share the lack of enthusiasm of the hon. Member for South-West Hull if the interests of these men and boys are not conserved and protected in the working out of the Bill. In passing I would suggest to the Minister that, in making up this council, he should include at least one woman—a housewife; and I would also suggest that it may be necessary, in order to put "ginger" into the Ministry of Agriculture, that he should put on the council, say, a gentleman employed at Billingsgate, with a rich and ripe vocabulary, so that he can call a spade a spade if the occasion should arise.
  What is really needed is what the City of Hull has been trying to do for some time, namely, to tell the people of these Islands to eat more fish. Then there will not be any laying up either of Lowestoft trawlers or of trawlers anywhere else. The House may be interested to know that

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  this City of Hull, which has been spoken of in various terms, not exactly of approbrium but at any rate not exactly generous, has in three years spent over £100,000, believing that it pays to advertise. They were able to build up and expand the industry in the City by that method of advertising and telling the people of these Islands that, if they bought their fish from our port, they could get it at a reasonable price.
  I want to speak of the Bill, as I have said, in general terms. I do not want Aberdeen to suffer because another fishing port is prospering; I want all these fishing ports to prosper; and the way to secure that is not to have a restrictive Measure, cutting down the supplies and sending up the price of any commodity, whether fish or bacon, but that this article of food, which is of so much nutritive value, shall be brought to our tables so that we can afford, with the modest means of the great proportion of the population, to take to eating more generous portions of that fish, instead of using it, as is sometimes the case, for other purposes. Hull has justified itself through its Development Committee by the fact that Members of this House, instead of buying imported Norwegian cod liver oil, can now get the finest cod liver oil from the city of Hull. That is in passing, and just a tiny advertisement, if it may be allowed.
  Mr. Fleming: Has the city of Hull yet discovered a means of getting rid of the bones of herring before they come to the table?
  Mr. Muff: By consulting the encyclopaedia I found that herring were not white fish. If I have to give a disquisition upon herring, I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, I shall incur your wrath, and I should be desolated if such a thing had to happen to me. We do not want to see one fishing port setting up in competition with another. We want in this Bill a unity of purpose. We do not want it to be a Dear Fish Bill. We want that unity of purpose and that finish in design so that our fishing industry as a whole may flourish, not by exploitation of the consumer, 'but by performing a public service in bringing this cheap and delectable article to our tables.
  8.31 p.m.
  Major Neven-Spence: I shall not follow the hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff)
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  in his investigations into the past of the Ministry of Agriculture, ginger, housewives, and other subjects. I thought that at one time he was going to give us his views as to the fundamental cause of the present parlous state of the white fishing industry. I listened with particular interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus), who is no longer in his place, when he dealt, I think for the first time in the Debate, with the subject of inshore fishermen. We have heard a great deal about the trawlermen; a number of Members seem to think that they should wear halos instead of sou'-westers; but, if you ask the inshore fishermen round our coasts what they think of the trawling industry, they would wish it in a place where halos are not normally worn. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] That is not from any personal feeling against the men engaged in the industry; it is because of the deplorable effect that the trawling industry has had on the inshore fishermen round our costs.
  When this Bill came out, turned with particular interest to Clauses 19–22, which deal with inshore fishermen, and I must say that, having read them, I join with the majority of Members who have spoken in giving a very lukewarm welcome to the Bill. I do not think it really gets down to the fundamental trouble of the fishing industry. Before I come to that, there is one point that I should like to ask the Under-Secretary to deal with in his reply. I think it is perfectly sound that in Clause 19, for isolated areas where obviously marketing schemes are not likely to be of help, provision is made for co-operative marketing, presumably some form of centralised selling. It goes on to say that co-operative schemes may make provision for the setting up of an authorised body to run the scheme and to take measures to prevent those registered under the scheme from evading its provisions. That is all to the good. It goes on to deal—and this is the important part—with the purchase, on behalf of those within the scheme, of the supplies necessary for prosecuting their industry. What I want to ask the Under-Secretary is whether these provisions all hang together. Is it an essential part of the scheme for co-operative buying that there should be a scheme for co-operative marketing as well? I ask that question because I represent a constituency which

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  is concerned solely with inshore fishing, and these schemes may be of great interest to us. In Shetland we have found in recent years an excellent market in Glasgow for white fish caught by our inshore fishermen, built up largely, or rather developed, through the efforts of one individual. They are caught by line, and therefore arrive in a much fresher condition than trawled fish. The fish are sold by auction, and so keen is the demand that Glasgow has found it worth while to send buyers up to Shetland for the special purpose of buying these fish. They are bought and sold in open market, and the system works well.
  If you go forward with the proposals for a co-operative scheme there, it is highly doubtful if they will substitute for the present method a system of centralised buying; but there are other schemes they will agree to. We suffer in these islands from an antiquated steamship company so bad that fish may take up to six days to reach the market, although the market is only 12 hours' distance from the fishing ground by a moderately fast steamer. Quite obviously, there is some scope there for some system of vending fish for market by co-operative arrangement quite independently of the steamship company. To get the fish to market you must have ice. There is no ice factory there. These men have to buy their ice in Aberdeen, at a fairly stiff price, and they have to pay a very stiff price to get it up to Shetland. So bad are the steamship arrangements that it is not uncommon for men to take delivery of wet sacks with no ice at all in them. A scheme for the manufacture of ice would be very useful in Shetland. I would like to know whether it would be possible to have a co-operative scheme for that purpose without necessarily having a co-operative scheme for marketing.
  In Clause 20 there is provision for registration of persons under the scheme. There is also provision for exempting persons from registration. It seems to me that if you are going to have a scheme for a given area, you had better have everybody in the scheme and control the whole thing. With regard to the provisions in the early part of the Bill concerned with marketing schemes, arrangements are made for taking a poll. Why are there no arrangements for a poll among the inshore fishermen? I think there ought to Fishermen are very
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  like people engaged in agriculture; they think very slowly, and you do not get a very good opinion by having a meeting, at which, usually, the gasbags do most of the talking, and often the real opinion is not formed until long after. I should like to see a poll taken in any district in which it is proposed to form a co-operative scheme.
  I want to pass on to some other things of rather wider aspect. I said that I gave my qualified support to this Bill. I do so because it does not seem to me that it is getting down to the fundamental cause of the imminent collapse, especially of the trawling industry, and the causes of the deplorable state of the white-fishing industry in the North Sea. Clause 39 contains some provisions with regard to the size of mesh of the nets. I wonder whether those responsible for the Bill are not altogether hypnotised by that word "net." There is only one thing used as a net, that is a herring drift net floating vertically in the sea buoyed at the top and weighted at the bottom, into which the fish swim. It is mere eyewash to call trawls nets. These things are essentially bags. They have the shape of bags, they are dragged along the bottom of the sea like bags, their purpose is to act like bags, and when they are full of fish they are more like bags than ever. This method of catching fish by dragging a bag along the bottom of the sea is the most essentially and inherently destructive method of taking fish that has ever been invented.
  The hon. Member for Lowestoft referred to the fishings of the North Sea. I thought he was going to get on to the cause there, but he went wrong in putting it down to over-fishing. It is due to the frightfully destructive method of fishing. It is interesting to note that trawling began only about 40 years ago. Here are the words of a Grimsby fisherman when he saw trawling begin:
  "When we have made a clean sweep of fish in the North Sea, how long will it be before we have cleaned the banks around Norway, Iceland and Faroe, causing destruction which will be followed by scarcity of fish and exorbitant prices of fish?"
  This has been fulfilled to the last letter. The only thing he did not mention was the glut of the markets with fish unfit for human consumption. I read a year or two ago, that the "Gamecock" fleet based, I think, on Hull is now laid up. It was built specially for fishing on the

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  Dogger Bank. Why does it not now fish on the Dogger Bank? Because there are no fish on the Dogger Bank, and that is because the trawling industry itself has destroyed that fishing. We have suffered from that in Shetland and Orkney and the Western Isles. The livelihood of our people has been destroyed in the last generation, and trawling is the primary reason. Forty years ago it was no uncommon thing for a trawler, on hauling its trawl after three hours, to have the bag bursting with the weight of fish in it. Fish in the North Sea to-day for three hours and you will be very lucky if you pull out a few boxes of fish.
  The tragedy that has assailed the inshore fishermen on our coasts is being played out now in the Faroe Isles. Over 100 years ago the Danish Government sent Christian Ployen to Shetland for the express purpose of finding out: for the benefit of the Faroese how we caught our white fish. He went to Faroe and taught the people our method of fishing; the Danish Government provided boats, and the Faroese built up, in a few generations, a fishing industry which was worth to them over £500,000 a year. The population rose from 5,000 at that time to 23,000, at which it remains to-day. At that time the fishing was carried on around the Faroes. Forty years ago the trawlers came here, and a bit Later they had to go further afield, and they have done to the Faroes what they have done to Orkney and Shetland and the Western Isles. They have ruined the fishing ground there and have driven the fishermen further and further afield, until they have had to go in inadequate boats not only to Iceland, but to Greenland.
  I do not know whether any hon. Member has stood upon a trawler when the trawl has been emptied on the deck. It is a most appalling sight to see the spawn that has to be shovelled back into the sea when the process is over. I cannot conceive anything more destructive than that. In this Bill there is a provision for allowing seine-net fishing to go on. I do not know whether hon. Members know what it is. It is a type of trawling carried out by small boats in inshore waters. Why should we deliberately perpetuate, especially in our inshore waters, a system of trawling which is utterly destructive in deep sea, and, in the opinion of the inshore fishermen, is even more destructive of fish inshore? I should like to see that
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  wiped out altogether, and the business of seine-net fishing ended once and for all.
  I come to another point—the size limits for fish. Really, that provision almost makes me laugh. I know that when we fish in lochs and rivers we have to measure the fish and throw them back if they are not of a certain length, but I cannot for the life of me conceive of the trawlermen measuring the fish before returning them to the sea. As a matter of fact, it would be absolutely useless. Think of what happens to these small fish. Those that are caught in the net are subject to an enormous pressure lasting from one to three hours among larger fish. They are all choked in any case through the stirring up of sand and mud from the bottom of the sea. They are emptied on deck, and after the big fish have been packed in boxes, the small fish are shovelled back into the sea. It is a question of shovelling back dead fish; if they are not stone dead when they are shovelled back they will be before they have been in the sea very long. Nothing but a fundamental change in the method of catching fish will ever restore to the North Sea the state that it ought to be in as regards fishing
  I come on to another point. It says, in Clause 39, on page 39:
  "The last preceding Sub-section shall apply to all fishing-boats within the limits of the territorial waters."
  That is the description as to the size of the mesh. It has to apply to our boats in our territorial waters, and it has also to apply to our boats wherever they may fish, irrespective of what the fishermen of other nationalities may be doing in those areas. It is very unfair to extend these regulations to our people unless you can first of all induce everybody to come in.
  On the question of territorial waters the Moray Firth provides a classic example of the present state of affairs. We make, and very properly make, regulations preventing our fishermen fishing within a 17 mile limit of the shore, but other people do not recognise it. This is a monstrous situation. Our trawlers cannot come in, but foreign trawlers can come in and fish. I think that the whole thing is due to a mixing up of the question of territorial limits with fishery limits. We want a little daylight and common sense let into this matter. The three mile limit came into being, as far as my investigations go, somewhere towards the end of the eighteenth century and it did not arise

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  here. It came into existence through arrangements between the United States of America and ourselves about fishing on the seaboards in the American continent and not here at all. As far as I can see, ever since then we have adopted this limit and have sought to impose it upon as many other people as can be got to swallow it. They do not swallow it. Only in 1930 there was an international discussion, I forget whether it was at The Hague or Geneva, and 15 nations said that they would have nothing to do with the three mile limit at all. What is it that is so sacrosanct about the three mile limit? On all grounds of common sense it ought to be at least 10 miles. Nothing less than that would ever satisfy the inshore fishermen.
  I will give to the House an interesting example of what it means to the inshore fishing to have the activities of the trawling industry curtailed. I can remember perfectly well that when I was a small boy fish used to abound in the waters around my home in the Shetlands. I can remember a long period covering a whole generation during which white fish were entirely absent. Then came the Great War and all trawling ceased. That gave the beds a rest for four years and at the end of that time the North Sea was swarming with fish again. I had to row a boat only a few hundreds yards from the South side of my island and I could fish all day long to my heart's content and catch endless number of enormous haddock, such as you never see in any fish shop anywhere in Great Britain at the present time.
  I will give another example from my knowledge of a very famous Shetland fishing. It is known as the Burra Haaf, and lies about six miles off the West of Shetland. It was one of the finest fishings anywhere round the coast, but now there is nothing to be got on it at all by reason of trawling. It is partly due to the trawling on the Burra Haaf itself, but is also due to the fact that the fish that gathered on the Burra Haaf were the fish that matured away on the Ronas Voe banks. It was the trawling of these banks that destroyed the Burra Haaf. I do not think that I am exaggerating in the very least when I say that three nights' work by a trawler on the inshore grounds will destroy the whole livelihood of 30 inshore fishermen and their dependants
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  for the whole year. That is how trawling appears to us who are interested in inshore fishing. I wish that our Government would study what Norway has done for its inshore fishermen. For over 1,000 years the maritime people of Norway have lived on their inshore fishing and they are as prolific to-day as they were then. Not only do they provide all the fish that they want for themselves, but they actually find it worth while to send fish across to our own markets using very large fast steamers for the purpose.
  What is the Norwegian practice? They do not and have never at any time admitted the three mile limit. The first thing they insisted upon is a four mile limit. But how do they draw that limit? Our practice is inconceivably stupid. We draw our three mile limit by drawing a line which closely follows the coast into all the bays and indentions and in that way go right into some of the very finest inshore fishings. I have on many occasions said, but this is the first time I have had a chance of saying it in this House, that if there is one good deed that the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries could do for the inshore fishermen of Great Britain it would be to dig up the whole question of the three mile limit. Let us have a four mile or even a 10 mile limit, but do not follow the coast line. What does Norway do in dealing with a fjord, like our Moray Firth or the Firth of Forth? They do not follow a four mile limit around the coast line, but they take two bastions, between, say, North Berwick and Anstruther, draw a line between those two points and then draw their four miles limit from there. That protects the inshore fishing. It keeps out the trawlers. In Norway they know that trawling spells the ruin of the inshore fishing. Our procedure ought to be to draw a line round the coast in the same way, connecting all the points, including the islands, and then we ought to push the three mile limit or any other limit decided upon right outside that line. If that were done it would have very great results.
  There is one problem which is often spoken about, and that is how to do something for the Highlands and Islands. I make no attack on the Scottish Fishery Board, because they are only carrying out the policy of this House, and they do their best, for which we are very grateful; but inshore fishing will never

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  be successful until this question of the three mile limit is tackled. If it were tackled as far as the Highlands and Islands are concerned we should get within a very brief space of time a great degree of prosperity. The people are there, the men are there, and they are anxious to fish. When we had that great influx of fishing in Shetland after the War men who had long ago left fishing returned to it and got boats and did well, but those boats are now laid up, and the men are doing nothing. I do not see why we should be tied down to a line which, if my information is correct, was determined over 100 years ago by the Admiralty as the distance that a muzzle loading gun could throw an iron cannon ball.
  I do not know what the future of the trawling industry is to be. I have the greatest personal sympathy for the men in that industry and I have an admiration second to none for the way they carry on as they do. I see plenty of them in winter, and I am very sorry that they should be in the difficulties that they are in. But let us recognise that the trawling industry itself is committing suicide, and there is nothing in this Bill that will stop that act. The trawling industry is holding a knife to its own throat. All that this Bill will do will be to make that knife travel a little more slowly, but none the less, unless something more drastic is done, the gizzard of the trawling industry will be slit by its own act. We have to recognise the inherently destructive nature of trawling, and it is worth while trying to get an international discussion on the subject. There are in other countries plenty of fishermen who hold that view. Therefore, the subject would be well worth investigation. If steps such as I suggest were taken, it would put an end to trawling as it now exists, but it would necessarily drive the trawling men out of the industry, because there is ample scope for their employment in the fishing industry providing it is conducted on rational lines as from time immemorial by hand lines, short lines and great lines.
  We ought to think rather more than we do of our inshore fishermen. They are the backbone of the seafaring population. The Navy is always very glad to have seamen in time of war. I wish they would think a little more about the
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  state in which the inshore fishing industry is at the present time. We have all these little towns, once flourishing and dependent on inshore fishing, and now they are slowly decaying. We hear of large grants being made for the building of harbours, loans being granted, and then we hear of the loans having to be cancelled. These places are all dying because inshore fishing is dying. I have felt impelled to speak because as far as this Debate is concerned we have not for the most part really considered the fundamental cause of the present terrible state of the trawling industry and more particularly the white-fish industry.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. Petherick: I am grateful to have been called, but I feel less inclined to address the House than I did before my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major NevenSpence) made his speech on behalf of the inshore fishermen. I also represent an inshore fishing division, and there is no doubt that the hon. and gallant Member, speaking for Scotland, did not in the least over-estimate the plight in which the inshore fishermen find themselves at the present time. Before I discuss the Bill I should like to reply to one or two comments of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell). He said that the Bill was produced by the Government in the interests of Mac Fisheries and Lever Brothers. A more grotesque distortion of facts it would be almost impossible to imagine. I should not have believed it had I not heard it. It was a distortion so great that it hardly does credit to the hon. Member's intelligence, if he was speaking seriously, and it does even less credit to his straightforwardness in politics if he did not believe what he said. It is perfectly obvious that this Bill is nothing of the kind. I do not think it is perfect in all respects, and I shall have several criticisms to direct against it at a later date, but I am convinced of one thing, and that is that the Government have brought it forward in all good faith in an endeavour to improve the various branches of the fishing industry.
  The hon. Member for Seaham made a very interesting contribution when he said that he was in favour—and presumably he is supported by his party—not only of State ownership, but also of

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  State control of the fishing industry in its various branches. I shall be very interested to hear from the hon. Member whether I have misinterpreted him.
  Mr. Shinwell: No.
  Mr. Petherick: I am grateful to receive that assurance. Then we are to go to our fishing ports and tell the fishermen that the Socialist party if returned—I hope very sincerely that they will not be returned, and the fishermen will take the same view when we tell them of Socialist intentions—intend to impose as soon as is reasonably possible, according to Parliamentary procedure, not only State control but State ownership of the fishing industry. Are the various vessels, owned sometimes by the share fishermen—certainly they are in my part of the world—to be expropriated by the State, and if so, with compensation or without it?
  The Bill is complicated and rather long. You cannot properly grasp it on first reading. When I read it first I was tempted to adopt an attitude of malevolent neutrality towards it, as it embodied several features of a restrictive nature which my friends and I have opposed from time to time. But on looking through it again there are some features which are positively good and one or two which are excellent, although I have grave doubts about the earlier part of the Bill which sets up these boards and marketing schemes for the benefit of the industry. The proof of this fish pie as far as these boards are concerned, will be in the eating, and we shall have to wait and see whether they do what they are intended to do.
  The function of the White Fish Commission is to bring generally into review matters relating to the industry and to advise and assist the Minister on such matters. Surely that is what the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries is for—and it ought not to be necessary to appoint a White Fish Commission to do that. But it also has—and this is the excuse for its existence—further powers and duties in supervising the schemes in the Bill. I welcome the fact that they are to be independent people. Some of us have been advocating a change of policy as far as the various boards under the Agricultural Marketing Acts are concerned, and want these boards to consist of independent people, not to follow the
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  deplorable example of the Bacon Board, which consists not only of people in the industry but of the great vested interests in that trade.
  The Joint Council seems to be a desirable move, but I am a little alarmed by one feature in it. Various businesses are to be represented on the Joint Council, including the home producer of white fish, which means the fishing boat owner and trawler owner. I am afraid that on the Joint Council the actual fishermen and trawler owners may not he sufficiently represented. There are several other industries which may very well swamp the voice of the fisherman and trawler, and if the right hon. Gentleman cannot see his way to divide the Joint Council into two sections, one representing the actual producers and the other representing other branches of the industry, I hope he will see that trawler owners and fishermen are fully represented so that they can make their voices heard. The fishing boat owners are to he registered under the Bill, but I am not quite clear whether individual fishermen, if they are inshore fishermen, have to be registered too. In any case, if that is so I hope the Minister will do everything he can to see that these fishermen know what is in the Bill and what their obligations are so far as registration is concerned. Many of them have to go considerable voyages and they may not know.
  The powers of this Commission are great, enormous. They may make regulations about sales, quality, the carrying on of various businesses, the condition of places where the fish are exposed for sale—incidentally on that point there may be, I think, sufficient powers under our Public Health Acts already—and they are to make regulations about charges. They are, in fact, a sort of haddock Hitler, and we shall have to consider these powers carefully before we grant everything the right hon. Gentleman is asking in the Bill. They may also submit marketing schemes on behalf of themselves or on behalf of some other body, and such bodies, the Bill says must be "substantially representative" of the persons carrying on that branch of the industry. That is right, but I do not know what "substantially representative" means.
  In all legislation to enable an industry in the modern term to govern itself, legislation which confers legal powers to coerce a minority, it seems to me that

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  three conditions should be fulfilled before we give such powers. The first is that the scheme must be sound. That remains to be seen. The second condition is that the majority want it, and I say that it must be a large majority, a minimum of 85 to 90 per cent. of the branch of the industry concerned. The third condition I would lay down is that the minority who do not like the scheme must, as far as it is possible, be ascertained to consist only of the recalcitrant and inefficient elements, not of those who by their industry, good finance and excellent ability, are the most efficient members of the trade. We want to raise the standard of all to that of the most efficient. Most of the schemes in the Bill are for the direct organisation of the middle man and the long distance fishermen.
  Like the hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland I am most anxious to see that the interests of the inshore fishermen are not lost sight of. That is not because I sit for a division in which there are inshore fishermen, because I have told them, when they have asked for things which I did not think it desirable to support, that I would not support them, but they are a class of fishermen and citizens who deserve every support we can give, and they are at the moment suffering from very bad times indeed. It is true that in relation to the total catch of the country the inshore fishing catch is comparatively small. As far as white fish are concerned, it is only I per cent., but if you take mackerel, pilchard and shell fish they bring in a very considerable income in the course of the year. Incidentally, I rather understand from the definition Clause that pilchard and mackerel, although they are not ordinarily considered as being white fish, are included within the scope of the Bill.
  We have not only to look after the interests of inshore fishermen, but to explain these matters to them. We have to handle them carefully, with great sympathy and great respect, for they are a very proud and individualistic race of men, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, who comes from the West Coast of Scotland, knows as well as I do. Only the other day, when the fishermen from Newlyn came to London—I see that my hon. Friend in whose division Newlyn is, and who told me the story, is in the House at the
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  moment, and I hope I am not stealing his thunder—one of them, as he was landing at Westminster Stairs, looked at Big Ben, that excellent clock by which we regulate our goings out and our comings in, took his watch from his pocket, and said: "There's something wrong with that there old clock." It is with that type of man that we have to deal in Cornwall. They are an independent race of men who like to believe that what they do is, on the whole, fairly right, and who look with a certain amount of suspicion at what is handed to them, particularly by the Government.
  I entirely agree with the statement of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland that the seas have been over-fished, and with his references to the three-mile limit. We have had precisely the same experiences in Cornwall. For the first few years after the War there were very good catches, but then there was a falling off again, and the catches became very bad. The reason for the good catches immediately after the War was that the fishing grounds had been given a good rest during the War period. As to co-operative schemes for inshore fishermen, I am a little surprised, as was the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot), that nothing has been done regarding the situation in Cornwall. The Duncan Commission said that the Ministry should initiate a marketing investigation with special reference to the Devon and Cornwall fisheries. As far as I know, nothing has been done. The hon. Member for Dundee rather blamed the Ministry for not taking action, but I should have thought that that was certainly part of the duties of the Duncan Commission.
  There is one point concerning the cooperative schemes to which I wish to draw attention. I gather that the idea is to start schemes in different parts of the country to enable the fishermen to work together, to buy their nets and equipment, and to save as much money as they can. I am not sure whether it is intended at the same time to cut out the fish buyers, because the Duncan Commission, in their report, said some rather nice things about the fish buyers who buy from inshore fishermen. The report states:
  "An examination of the accounts of the local merchants by our accountants disclosed no evidence of undue profits."

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  That has been my experience in Cornwall. I know many of the fishermen as well as the fish merchants, and I have heard extraordinarily few complaints about the activities of the fish buyers and fish merchants in that part of the world. Therefore, I hope that when any scheme is being brought forward, due weight will be given to any representations which they may put forward. I see also that it is stated in this part of the Bill that there must be a preponderant opinion in favour of such a scheme. I hope my right hon. Friend will not be satisfied with a Báre majority of fishermen in favour of any scheme that is put forward, but will insist, before he sanctions such a scheme of a co-operative nature, on a good, stout majority, in order that the minority cannot feel itself to be so much aggrieved. We shall have to judge all these schemes on their merits when they are put before us. One unfortunate fact about them to which I would like to draw attention is that they are presented to us as a unit which must be either accepted or rejected. There is a grave disadvantage in that method, but at the present time I do not see any alternative. If it were possible for us to treat them as an ordinary Parliamentary Bill, I think that, with all the orders coming out under various marketing Acts and boards, we should be well occupied for the whole year in discussing these schemes, even if we did nothing else.
  I believe that we may be going too far in what one may call the control system. There is now a large number of boards of an independent or semi-independent nature, and I maintain that the board system, a new system that has been put forward during the last few years, is non-proven. We should be very careful in instituting any fresh board of this nature. The Consumers' Committee seems to me to be wholly unobjectionable, but I cannot altogether understand the object of the Investigation Committee. In Clause 16 its duty is described as being to look into complaints put forward by the Consumers' Committee and complaints as to the working of the marketing schemes. Surely, that is a job for the White Fish Commission, which is being set up to supervise the industry, or, if that Commission is considered to be too prejudiced or too ex parte to examine the complaints properly, the Ministry itself is capable of
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  examining the schemes. We are setting up a number of new committees and boards under this Bill, and it seems to me that the Investigation Committee is merely another sea fish "Soviet" to join the rest.
  I do not wish to deal with the other parts of the Bill in detail, as I do not want to detain the House too long. I believe that. Part IV is a very good one, and I am very glad that effect has been given to the recommendations of the Duncan Commission, because in spite of the suspicions of hon. Members opposite, I believe that they will do a great deal to improve the lot of the fishermen and to allay some of the suspicions which they may well have against the trawler-owners. I would like to make a specific suggestion with regard to Part V. In Clause 56, the Minister is given power to revoke a bylaw. Some time ago I mentioned in the House that there was a dispute between the sea fishery committees of Devon and Cornwall with regard to drifting in Bigbury Bay, which is between the two counties, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, looked into the matter; but nothing has been done. I will not go into the details of the dispute, but briefly, the Cornish driftnets were being caught by Devonshire crab-pots and destroyed.
  Nothing was done about the matter because the only people who could take action were the Devon sea fishery committee. It was a local dispute of an unfortunate nature, and I have not heard of any trouble there recently; but perhaps at a later stage the Minister would consider introducing into the Bill a provision which would not only give him power to revoke a by-law but, in the event of one local sea fishery committee refusing to make a by-law which was proved to be in the general interest, would give him power to bring the two sea fishery committees together, and, if he was satisfied on the evidence that it was in the general interest and not in a purely sectional interest to override the sea fishery committees and make a by-law himself.
  I have nothing more to say except with regard to the drafting, and that I will leave to a later stage. I think that the drafting in some respects is extremely unfortunate, and we very often do not have any opportunity to say anything about it in this House during the course

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  of the Committee and Report stages. I think we should be very chary about accepting the marketing and organisation provisions in a Bill of this nature. I believe that in the Civil Service at the present time there is a kind of legislative anti-litter league whose supporters have such tidy minds that they want to clear up everything and have no industry managing itself, but to have all industries wholly circumscribed like nice little animals in cages and working on highly circumscribed lines. This Bill in parts gives me a little impression that that is what has happened in this particular case. Nevertheless I think we have to do all we can to improve it where possible, and if we cannot improve it to make it work. I suppose that now we most of us dislike the old economic doctrine of laissez faire, but I think the more detrimental doctrine is the one of the Government and Civil Service at the present time, laissons faire"— Do not you bother about it but let us do as much as we like." The truth should lie, and generally does, somewhere between the two. It should not be laissez faire or laissons faire, but laissez fair si possible; as little Government interference as possible but where necessary it should be done.
  I am grateful to the House for listening to me so patiently. All I wish to add is that I also, with hon. Members who have spoken to-day, regret very much that there is not something in the Bill about the curtailment of imports. It is a most unfortunate omission. In common with others I hope to be so fortunate as to be selected to serve on the Committee and to propose various Amendments, but I am not by any means satisfied. But I wish my right hon. Friend success with his Bill, and if it gets through I hope it will be some good to a suffering industry, particularly to the inshore fishing industry of this country.
  9.29 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward: Although it was in an earlier part of the Debate, I feel that I must refer to the speech made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) in which he accused the Hull fishing trade of lowering the price of fish. The hon. Gentleman is under a complete misapprehension. The fish which is landed in the port of Hull and the fish which is landed in Aberdeen have two
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  totally different markets. Fish landed in Aberdeen, generally speaking, of course, is mostly luxury fish. It commands a good price in Edinburgh or London to which a great part of it is sent and where, were the organisation of the Aberdeen wholesalers better, very much more would be sent. But the fish which is landed in Hull, again speaking generally, goes very largely to the fish friers who, by means of the cheap fish they can obtain in Hull, have extended a chain of fish-frying shops all over Lancashire and Yorkshire, providing thereby a cheap and wholesome food for the very poorest of the poor. In fact I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that fried fish is in many cases the only hot meal which a poor man can get, and that the entertainment and refreshment provided there by means of fried fish and chips is competing very successfully with the entertainment offered in many of the public houses.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) expressed the hope that the restrictions on the sale of immature fish would be done away with, but with all due respect I sincerely hope that nothing of the kind will be done. It is only by preventing the sale of immature fish that we can hope to stop the destruction of those fish. He said it was impossible to prevent their being killed because they were caught in the trawl net, could not get out, and when landed on the deck of the ship were already dead. There, again, I venture to join issue with him. It is perfectly true that when the trawl begins to work the meshes are drawn together, and it is difficult or impossible for the immature fish to get through. But later on, when the net takes the form of a ball, the immature fish can slip through, and such as do not can quite easily be shovelled overboard off the deck of the ship while still alive; but if we allow these immature fish to be sold in the market on arrival in port, there is no inducement for the crew of the vessel to attempt to shovel them overboard while still alive. In fact, the inducement is all the other way. It is to allow them to die so that they can then be sold in the market, and if we want to protect the immature fish it is absolutely essential that their sale should be prohibited.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), when instancing

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  the difference in the price of fish when landed at the port and sold in London, said he knew of many cases where fish, sold at 2d. at the wharf, was retailed at anything between 10d. and 1s. 4d. at, I think he said, the Civil Service Stores. With all due respect, the fish which is retailed for 2d. is not the same fish as that which is retailed at from 10d. to 1s. 4d. That fish is almost invariably fish of the best quality, such as turbot and sole, and the price of that particular variety of fish on being landed from the trawler at the port itself is very often between 70s. and 100s. per cwt., which does not mean an excessive rate of profit when that fish is retailed at the Civil Service Stores at from 10d. to 1s. 4d. a lb. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham also quoted largely from the Duncan Report, hoping to prove thereby the excessive profits which were being made by the wholesalers on the fish in the port, and alleging the same in the town where it was consumed. But with all due respect to him, he omitted the summing up of the commission in that respect. May I be allowed to read a quotation which is contained on page 68 amongst the findings and recommendations of the commission. It says:
  "We re-affirm that at no stage in the progress of fish from the port to the consumer, are profits obtained at more than a modest level—and in the case of trawler owners for the most part, profits are either absent or negligible."
  It may be proved that fish on its journey from the port to the consumer is handled by too many people, but that is identically one of the very things with which this Bill is designed to deal. It gives power to deal with the question of passing through too many hands; it gives power to create organisation which will prevent that. The Bill endeavours—and this is its main object—to place the fishing industry on a sounder economic basis than it has been on for the last six or seven years. It is an open secret that for some years past, at any rate since 1930, the profits have either been of a negligible character, or, in the majority of cases, have been absent altogether. This is due in a large degree to a rather curious state of affairs. The fishing vessels operating in distant waters have returned with such large catches that the prices obtained by them were not sufficient to remunerate the people who caught the fish. On the other hand, the trawlers operating in the nearer waters
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  made such poor catches that the result in that case also was not remunerative.
  That unfortunate state of affairs has been accentuated in the last few years by a steep increase in the cost of everything which fishermen require. Not only has the cost of boats increased by something like 50 to 70 per cent. but the cost of repairs has increased to the same extent. The cost of nets, warps and gear generally and stores has also increased. The right hon. Gentleman said that the cost of coke had gone up by 5s. a ton, but I am of opinion that it has gone up by at least 7s. 6d. a ton, if not more. This has made the working of even the most modern and largest vessels at a profit an extremely difficult undertaking. This state of affairs applies not only to the large trawling companies whose vessels often go as much as 2,000 miles to their fishing grounds; it applies even more to the inshore fisherman. He, to all intents and purposes, is without capital. If he has a little capital it is sunk in a boat and he now finds it impossible to make the boat pay. Those men who operate on a small scale and with small capital have been suffering even more than the big trawler owners, with the result that the older men are leaving the industry and the younger men are turning elsewhere in search of a livelihood. The hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. Adamson) complained that apprentices were not being encouraged by the owners in the fishing trade. Is it any wonder that boys are not willing to go into the trade when they can see no hope of a living from it in the future. Is it any wonder in those circumstances that people who have been brought up in the trade are leaving it?
  If we get down to bed-rock, broadly speaking there are three methods by which the fishing industry can be placed on a sounder financial basis. The first is by reducing the cost of operations. The second is by increasing the price to the consumer. The third is by increasing consumption, and by popularising fish as an article of diet. The first is very difficult of accomplishment, especially in view of the increased cost, which, as I have said, fishermen and fishing companies have to pay for practically every article of their equipment. The second method, that of increasing the price to the consumer is definitely objectionable, although I cannot help thinking that when the cost of everything which is employed in the

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  catching of fish has increased by anything up to 75 per cent., it is impossible to expect that fish can be sold at the prices which formerly obtained. The third method is the one upon which, in my opinion, we must concentrate to enable more remuneration to be earned, by increasing business without increasing the cost to anybody.
  That can be done in several ways. It can be done by propaganda—by advertisements on the lines of "Drink more milk," or "Guinness is good for you." No doubt, advertisements of that kind bring very largely increased trade to the people who use them, and with the power which this Bill gives to raise a voluntary levy for the purpose of advertising, something might be done in that direction. Fish does not occupy the place which it deserves to occupy among the foods of the nation. It is not nearly as popular as it ought to be, and I think that is due to the fact that it is not always presented to the consumer in its most palatable form. I think, generally speaking, the fish from the North Sea and the nearer fishing waters is purveyed in better condition than the fish from the more distant waters. That is not to be wondered at. The fish from Bear Island, the Murmansk coast, or what is known as the White Sea area, may have been caught 14, 16 or even 18 days before it reaches the consumer. In those circumstances, even though it is packed in the best way known at the present time, it is bound to deteriorate.
  Again, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the people who buy fish do not always know what they are getting. He said he could not tell the difference between a lemon sole and a dab. In my opinion, the fraud—for such it may be termed—which is mostly practised on the public is the selling of lemon sole in place of Dover sole. I think most people could not identify the fish as a lemon sole until they had commenced eating it, and that affects the popularity of the better-class article. There is a fish known as the catfish which is so objectionable in appearance that it can only be sold filleted, and it is sold under various names, "rock salmon" being one of the favourites. That, again, does not tend to popularise the genuine article, although if eaten fresh, the fish is far from unpalatable. What we must avoid
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  as much as possible is raising the price of the cheaper varieties of fish to the consumer. Two or three years ago northern waters were closed for fishing purposes during four months of the year. When I say "northern waters" I refer to that area which is generally known as the Bear Island ground or the White Sea ground, and what it really means is all sea north of the 72nd parallel. The result was a very steep rise of something like 50 per cent. in the cost of the cheaper varieties of fish and the people who were hit particularly hard by that, were the fish friers. That is a thing which we ought to avoid because fried fish in recent years has become one of the most satisfactory foods which the poorest of the poor in this country can afford.
  May I turn for a few moments to the actual contents of the Bill? Clause I authorises the constitution of the White Fish Commission which is to consist of five members nominated by the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State for Scotland. To assist the commission in their deliberations a White Fish Joint Council is also to be attached, which is to be nominated in practically the same manner by the two right hon. Gentlemen to whom I have referred, with this difference, that they are compelled to consult the various representatives of the industry with regard to whom they place on the council. It seems to me that we shall have two bodies which are nominated in what is, to all intents and purposes, the same way, that is, at the discretion of the Minister, and I cannot help feeling that they may quite easily become merely two bureaucratic bodies playing into each other's hands. I would put this forward as a suggestion: Would it not be better that, as far as the Joint Council is concerned, the members should not be nominated, but should be elected by various sections of the industry—the catchers, the wholesalers, and I should include also a certain number of representatives of the men who are employed in the industry.
  With regard to the powers of the commission, there is one thing with which I think the House will entirely agree, and that is that they have powers to insist on the cleanliness of the way in which fish are sold and transported and generally to arrange for the supervision of fish in transit, before and during sale. In view of

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  the very great powers which this commission will have, I think consumers' committees, as the Bill provides, are absolutely necessary in order to see that the powers which the Bill will give to these various joint committees and commissions are not exploited in any way to the disadvantage of the consumer. I cannot help thinking that a certain amount of rise in price is inevitable, but I sincerely hope the consumers' committees will see to it that the rise is restricted to the very lowest possible level. After all, if we wish the poorer classes of this country to have fish, they can only get it through the medium of the fish friers, who must have cheap raw material at their disposal. If there is any restriction, if, for example, the northern fishing grounds are closed for too long, another rise will take place in the cost of this cheaper fish such as took place before, to the detriment, not only of the friers' business, which, I may say, by now is an extremely extensive one, but also of the poorer classes, who rely on fish as one of their staple articles of diet.
  Mr. Muff: And chips.
  Sir A. Lambert Ward: Yes, they go together. I am very glad to see that authority is given in the Bill to raise funds for research. I understand that a considerable sum of money is already spent on research, but I do not think it goes far enough. We know so very little about the habits of fish, especially white fish. We do not really know, although a great many people pretend to know, whether soles and turbot actually spawn in deep water or only in shallow water such as the North Sea, off the coast of Scotland, or off the coast of Portugal. That is most important, because if we could ascertain that they spawn freely in deeper waters, we could allow the trawling to go on in the North Sea, because we could feel that there was a reservoir of fish in the deeper waters which in due course would come up into trawlable waters. There is another curious subject on which we know very little at present. It has been found that as fish such as cod, hake, and halibut have been reduced in numbers by trawling, their place has been taken by an increasing number of the more valuable fish, such as silver turbot. If that is going to happen in Northern waters, when the cod and coarse fish have
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  been reduced there, once again one will be able to trawl in shallow waters with a certain amount of confidence, because one will know that in the vast area of the fishing grounds in the North fish are spawning and growing which in due course will come to the nets,
  I think it is most satisfactory that an agreement has been reached on the question of the size of the mesh of nets and that an international agreement of a sort has been arrived at, but I must say I was absolutely horrified when I heard from my right hon. Friend that France was not included in this agreement. He said that all legislation on those lines with regard to fixing the size of the mesh could be rendered nugatory by blinding the net. In my opinion, it would be rendered still more nugatory by the French not being blind to the advantages of unfair competition. In any case, as international agreement has been reached, would it not be possible—I put this suggestion forward with all due humility—to have an international inspectorate as well? I am sure that English fishermen would not have the slightest objection to having their nets inspected by Dutch or Belgian inspectors. They would even feel that as Englishmen were inspecting the nets of their foreign competitors, there would be no doubt that the agreement which had been arrived at was being observed. At present one of the greatest difficulties in the way of all these international agreements is an unpleasant feeling, first of all, that the other countries may not pass the necessary legislation and then that when they have passed it, they may not enforce it. It may he an entirely insular view to take, but the fact remains that opinions like that do exist among a large number of people in these islands.
  In conclusion, I should like to say that, on the whole, we welcome this Measure. It is susceptible of improvement, and it is capable of amendment. Amendments will be moved, no doubt, in Committee and possibly on the Report stage, but they will not be moved in any obstructive spirit; they will merely be moved with the idea of improving the Bill and rendering it a more workable Measure. On the whole, I think the fishing trade generally and the people who have anything to do with that industry realise that this Measure is, at any rate, a step in the right direction.
  9.54 p.m.
  Mr. Beechman: After the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Petherick) and the speech made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence), it is not necessary for me to detain the House for more than a few moments, but I think it cannot be sufficiently emphasised that the inshore fishermen of this country are being extinguished and that their rescue is not only required by the dictates of humanity, but is essential to national defence. These men were a very important part of our Naval Reserve in 1914. They manned the "Q" ships and the minesweepers, and they did work, and are capable of doing work, in a national emergency which no other body of citizens is capable of doing. Therefore, I say it is a matter of the utmost urgency that these fishermen and their families should be saved.
  I should like to mention some figures which show clearly how this industry is declining. In 1920 the total number of inshore fishermen employed in Cornwall was 1,415; there are now employed 964. When one analyses these figures, one finds that the decline is mainly taking place in regard to those who are partly engaged in fishing, that is to say, those whose main occupation is fishing but who are also employed in horticulture, carpentry or building.
  I would like my right hon. Friend to make sure that when he is registering fishermen he does not make it too stereotyped, so that when once a man is registered as a fisherman he will not be precluded from carrying on horticulture or carpentry in times when he cannot make fishing pay. I want to make sure that those who are only partially engaged in fishing can be registered as fishermen and benefit from these schemes. I regret that this Bill does not deal with shellfish. It is not realised in the House, and certainly not in the country, what an enormous trade lies before us in this regard. There was imported into this country in 1935 no less than £628,000 worth of canned crabs, and of that amount £414,000 worth came from Japan. The crabs so imported were not cheap, nor, may I add, were they crabs.
  Sir A. Lambert Ward: Is my hon. Friend aware that shell-fish are included in the Bill?
  Mr. Beechman: Shell-fish are included, but they do not come under the term "white fish" and cannot be included under those provisions which particularly refer to white fish. I regret it because there exists this immense possibility of trade in shell-fish.
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: The term "white fish" as defined in Clause 62 includes shell-fish.
  Mr. Beechman: I am glad to hear that that is so, but I hope that my right hon. Friend's measures will go further and deal with the regulation of imports. In canned crab we have a food substance which is imported from a country where there are sweated wages, and there is nothing to be said for allowing these crabs to come in without being regulated.
  It is no good having a marketing scheme in regard to fish if you have no fish to market. The situation in regard to inshore fishing is that the seas are becoming depleted. Those of us who are interested in this matter, as has already been so forcefully pointed out by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Orkney and Shetland (Major NevenSpence) are clear that this depletion has resulted from trawling and the operations of trawlers right up to the three-mile limit and within it. We do not grudge the money made by trawling combines, although we feel that this matter is always being considered, unconsciously perhaps, from the point of view of trawling dividends and not from the point of view of sustaining and establishing the fishermen and their families. We say that in the long run there is only one remedy, and that is that there should be close areas for inshore fishing as against trawlers. I know that it is not an easy matter and can be established only by international agreement, but I should like to ask my right hon. Friend whether it will be possible for consideration to be given to this question. The Commission, I understand, is to consider various matters, but that is a matter which it is essential to consider.
  With it goes another question, to which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland has referred, namely, the consideration of the three-mile limit. I do not believe that it should be altered and be made a different type of limit, but the question

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  is from which point is the limit to be taken. If we consider the Scilly Isles, for instance, it makes all the difference if it is taken from this headland or that headland, or from this island or from that island. The time has come when the actual delimiting of the three-mile limit should be reconsidered. My last point is that there is not sufficient vigilance at sea. The police craft do their work very well, but it is becoming increasingly clear that there are not enough of them. I should like to know from my right hon. Friend whether these are matters which can be considered under the machinery which is about to he set up.
  Viscountess Astor rose—
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. Alexander: I am sure that it must be a great disappointment to the Noble Lady not to be able to speak, but, owing to the schedule, I cannot give way to her. The Debate has not been marked by a very large attendance and it has produced a great deal of what I may call constituency-interest speeches. It is, perhaps, the misfortune of the Noble Lady that those constituency speeches have been over long. It has been interesting to listen to the more or less technical views which have been expressed during the Debate from various areas on which the fishing industry is mostly based. The more I have listened to those views the more I have felt the strength of the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) that, whatever good may come out of this Bill, it is certainly not in itself a solution of the problem of the fishing industry dealing with white fish.
  What has struck me most of all in the Debate is the complete absence of any real plan to deal with the bringing of the fish to the great mass of the consumers who alone can form a remunerative market to those engaged in the industry. The essential thing, if we are to get the industry maintained, is that we should have the commodity brought to the public in such quantities, under such conditions, and under such expenses—because I do not argue that undue profits are being made—that it should be profitable to the people who are doing the work in the industry, as well as to those who are engaged in the ancillary services
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  in the industry. That means inevitably, that what the Government need to tackle before they tackle details of this kind is how we can get the purchasing power of the common people in a different relation from what it is to-day in regard to food.
  That is the problem which the Government are not prepared to face, and we do not believe that they will ever face it successfully unless we have what is objected to so much by the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Petherick), that is, the nationalisation of certain of the important industries in the country. I do not see what he had to complain of in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham. He said: "Am I to go down to my constituency and say, 'These wicked Labour and Socialist people want to nationalise and take control of this industry, and perhaps take your little ships with compensation or with no compensation? "The hon. Member knows perfectly well that in the whole approach to this matter, from the appointment of the Duncan Commission in 1933 down to the presentation of this Bill, there is a complete admission of the failure of private enterprise. Hon. Members opposite always used to say:" Do not interfere with industry. Keep the State off industry." Somebody in the House said yesterday, when we were dealing with transport, that competition is the fresh air of trade.
  Viscountess Astor: That is true. Russia has had to let it in.
  Mr. Alexander: I sympathise greatly with the Noble Lady's local interest in this question, but really she must be a little consistent. She and her friends have always used the argument, "Do not let the State interfere," but even the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth, who entertained us so much with his claims for the rights of private enterprise, has got so far as to say that he is not wholly in favour of laissez faire, that though he certainly would not agree to State control, perhaps there is a halfway house. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Exactly. Hon. Members want complete freedom to exploit when they can do so with impunity, but they want the assistance of the State to secure whole or partial monopoly, riot in the general interests of the public but for the purpose of maintaining sectional private profits.

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  That is their idea of departure from the policy of laissez faire. That is seen in the various marketing schemes and in this particular scheme.
  In spite of what has been said in criticism of my hon. Friend there has been no answer to his case, which was that in this Bill it is proposed to introduce a partial, if not an entire, monopoly for the trawler owner. In future only those who are licensed may come into it. Not so long ago I was talking to important representatives of the fish buyers, who pointed out that there had been a decline in the number of boats engaged in the trawling industry and in the number of fishermen employed, and an increase in the amount of fish caught per fisherman, and a very large increase in the price of the fish sold to them. The proposal is now made to limit the trawlers and to allow in new entrants only under licence, but there is no such proposal for dealing with the other sections of the industry. That is where the theory of the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth comes in—let us have a partial monopoly there, but do not interfere with private enterprise when it comes to the wholesale game, what I call the "skin game," of the British commercial market. Let us read page 37 of the report:
  "The disadvantages of this unrestricted buying are most marked at Grimsby where, working at pressure, upward of 700 merchants"—
  this is in Grimsby alone—
  "are trading daily under the stress of close proximity and keen competition. The trade is of all types and orders of magnitude. Some are casual buyers; others were employes yesterday and to-day are cutting in 'on the business of their previous employers. There are opportunities for petty pilfering, for topping '(covering up inferior fish with a layer of superior grade) and for stealing custom. Ii the fish arrives at its final destination somewhat stale, there is little chance of knowing whether ship, port wholesaler, transport agent or inland merchant was most responsible."
  There is no proposal in the Bill to deal with that situation. I say, with some experience of preparing evidence and giving it before the Duncan Commission from the retail point of view, that there is to be found one of the most fruitful fields for effecting commercial economy. Anybody who has examined the condition of fish wholesaling knows that there is a whole range of small merchants at Grimsby and other ports who may be
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  "haggling," sometimes, only a few stone of fish per day, and in order to try to get rid of that fish they will send telegrams at 6d. a time to a whole range of retailers throughout the country. In the end the industry has to bear the cost of all that over-done competition in wholesaling at Grimsby and similar ports. There is nothing in the Bill to deal with that situation, and yet lion. Members get very "fashed" when my hon. Friend says that the Bill is not meeting the situation, and that if it is to be dealt with successfully we must do it on the basis of national planning and national organisation in the interest both of the industry and of the public.
  While I agree that the Government are to be commended for at least trying to do something for the industry, there are two main directions in which they fail. The first is that their general policy is not reacting in such a way as to increase the purchasing power of the common people. One has only to examine the actual returns of the industry year after year, as detailed by the Duncan Commission, to see how trade went down not only in the matter of the commercial returns but in the volume of the fish handled during the years of depression when the purchasing power of the people was low. If only the purchasing power of the common people is increased, we can keep this and other essential trades working at a good level. The second point is that the Government are not removing the stupid and unnecessary competitive elements which I have illustrated from the Duncan report. I would press these two points strongly on the Government, though at the same time repeating that we are glad that they are at least trying to help the industry.
  Now a word or two about prices. My hon. Friend the Member for Seaham has been attacked because he has drawn attention to the disparity between prices at the ports and prices on sale; but he has been attacked for things that he did not actually say. What he put to the House was that, taken on an average, prices at port were 2d. and, on an average, as far as he had been able to get them from a price list and not for a particular class of fish, the selling prices came to 1s. per lb.; that there was a margin between those prices not covered by profits and expenses in the industry, and that it required more explanation.

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  I thought he put it very reasonably, and on the whole very well, but apparently he upset a few hon. Members quite unnecessarily. When I was preparing from a large number of centres of retail distribution evidence for the Duncan Commission I found incontrovertibly that there were a number of channels which, unfortunately, had to be followed, in the present structure of the industry.
  There was this first-sale position in the port. There was a second-sale position, very often in the port as well. If I may instance the society with which I am familiar, they would have part of their fish coming in through a straight consignment from their own wholesale federation, but, in many cases, they would be buying other fish, which very often came from a third point of sale, when it reached them. When you get your fish at an average price of 2d. per lb. at the port, before it gets into the shop, reckoning carriage, ice and other things, it has cost 8d. or 9d. a lb., and you are running a risk of waste if you do not get your sale at once. You are doing well and you can make your retail business pay, if you sell the fish at the average price. It is in the interests of the retail trade that my hon. Friends and I plead for a remedy for the present situation. I do not disagree with the general point made under this heading by the Duncan Commission. I can quote the actual words in their report, where they say:
  "We affirm that at no stage in the progress of fish from the port to the consumer are profits obtained at more than a modest level."
  The point is that there are far too many stages at which these modest profits are taken. That is the real reason why we press upon the Government that something should be done in that connection.
  Another thing occurred to me in the course of the Debate. It was the belief still held by hon. Members opposite that the sort of thing that appertains in the fish industry can be met by advertising. It is almost pathetic that people should rely upon that. I agree that the amount spent upon advertising fish is small compared with the amount spent upon other commodities for a similar turnover. I have not the actual figures, but I am told that the amount spent per annum on advertising fish is probably under £50,000, in relation to a turnover of
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  £12,500,000. Looking at the matter from the retail point of view I am bound to say that, in the case of fish, you are not dealing with a commodity that households desire to take every day, and that you have a very different situation from that which has grown up in the ordinary food trade.
  I endeavoured to prove my case on this point to the Duncan Commission. If you had fish on sale at an average price of 1s. per lb., good, sweet fish, at the same time as, by organisation, steady and regular supplies and good grading, such foods as butter, cheese, sausages, new classes of tinned foods, glass hams and so on selling at a corresponding price per lb., with no possibility of waste such as occurs when the housewife is dealing with fish, these foods would be far more economical for the working-class housewife to deal with. Over and over again since the period when fish was particularly dear, in one or two years of the War and in the boom period thereafter, the housewife has turned naturally to alternative foods, and she will turn back only if one of two things happens—either her weekly income is increased, or she is able to get fish put before her at a more reasonable rate because of the elimination of some of the expenses which are at present collected en route. Until the Government are prepared to deal with the position on that basis, I do not think they will make very much progress.
  I shall not detain the House for very much longer, because I want the Under-Secretary to have ample time in which to reply to some of his own friends, even if he does not reply very much to us, but in conclusion I should like to say a word or two about the structure of the Bill. It is noteworthy that now we seem to proceed from Bill to Bill in a series of marketing schemes moving away from the purely producer-controlled type of board. We are now, on the top of the Livestock Commission, to have an independent commission to deal with fish. I welcome it very much. We on this side are sometimes attacked because the Marketing Act of 1931 was based upon producers. I always have to remind people who criticise me on that score that in 1931 it is doubtful whether we could have carried even the Bill that we had unless we had been prepared to concede that and more. We had enough difficulty in contending against the masses of Tory

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  Members of Parliament representing rural constituencies in the Standing Committee on the Addison Bill, and it is a good thing now that the very handling of that series of Measures by the Tory Government has at last convinced Tory Members that it is a good thing to approach these marketing problems from the point of view of the general public, and not from that of sectional interests. It is a good thing, therefore, to see that here we are to have a commission of the independent type operating.
  I noticed that the Minister made some play with the fact that the marketing boards under the schemes are to include independent members. He paid a little tribute to the fact that independent members had been useful on marketing boards in the past. If he will forgive my saying so, I have not noticed it very much yet. I have observed the independent members who have served on boards like the Milk Marketing Board and the Pigs Board, but, as long as you have administrators who are put on such boards, because they are members of the Tory party, Members of this House since elevated to the House of Lords, with very strong agricultural leanings when they are dealing with agricultural schemes, they can hardly be expected to take a completely unbiased view when appointed as independent members of marketing boards. Whether or not the appointment of independent members to these boards will prove of real value to the general public will depend largely upon the wisdom of the Minister as to how he arranges for these appointments and how he selects the individuals.
  Viscountess Astor: Does the right hon. Gentleman prefer to have producers on the boards?
  Mr. Alexander: I have just been saying I am very glad to see that the Government are moving away from a purely producers' board, and are taking a more general community line. As my right hon. Friend the Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Morrison) said the other night, they move slowly, but they move long way behind the times.
  Viscountess Astor: We move surely.
  Mr. Alexander: I always trust the Noble Lady's friends to move surely in giving gifts to their own friends. With regard
  706
  to one or two quite small points in connection with the structure of the Bill, I am a little concerned about the general basis of registration. Of course, registration is necessary if you are to give those within the scheme voting power, and, if there are to be licensing schemes for trawlers, it will be no detriment. When you come to registration of other sections of the trade, I can speak, at any rate, for the retail side and say that I hope it will be done with some wisdom and selection. If you are going to get a registration fee charged for every single person, you may seriously choke up some of the channels for the distribution of fish. I would not choke any of the channels for the sale of fish where there were no expenses attached to the sale. There are large numbers of people who sell small quantities of fish in grocers' shops. I do not see why that should be stopped until you get a really national system. If you can get nationalisation I would do it. But I hope that, whatever the system of registration you lay down, you will take that into account. Another point which we shall raise in Committee is that we do not understand why it is that this Government so continuously brings in Measures which say that a Member of the House of Commons cannot serve on a body of the kind set up here. There is no such bar against a member of another place.
  Viscountess Astor: I agree with it.
  Mr. Alexander: I do beg most heartily to protest on principle on Second Reading against that kind of thing. I have no objection if the Government say that it is inadvisable for any Parliamentary representative to take office on a particular Commission, but I resent the suggestion that people who occupy seats in another place are to be preferred to hon. Members here. I have never hidden my views about the respective division of interests in Parliament. I have said something recently about the 700 directorships which are to be found in the House of Commons. But that sort of thing is not confined to this House. You have only to look at the Stock Exchange Year Book and see where Noble Lords figure to lay them under exactly the same bar. The Government ought to consider that. I hope they will do so before the Committee stage of the Bill is very far forward.

  707
  One or two other things that I wished to say I shall cut out in the interests of time, but I come back to the main point which I want to put on behalf of those for whom I speak. Nothing has transpired in the Debate which can move us one jot from our opinion that you are not going satisfactorily to settle the problems of this industry, which illustrate so clearly the breakdown of private enterprise, until you get a Government of people who are willing to put into operation the principles of communal ownership and direction.
  10.29 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Wedderburn): Before I come to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite and the speech of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), I hope the House will forgive me if I say one word on the peculiar importance of this subject to Scotland. In Scotland, we produce something like one-sixth of the total United Kingdom catch of white fish in volume; but in value it is one-fifth, because our -interests mainly lie in the near waters, in quality fish, and we are in no way responsible for the flooding of the market, to which reference has been made, with low-price fish from more distant waters, which has contributed so much to the troubles of the industry. The average price realised for white fish in Scotland in 1936 was 22s. 8d. per cwt., compared with 17s. 8d for the whole of Great Britain. For the present year the prices have fallen, in Scotland to 19s. 7d., and in Great Britain to 16s. 4d. That decline, when you consider it in conjunction with the heavily increased costs, particularly in the price of coal, which have taken place, reflects the seriousness of the position of the whole industry.
  Our inshore fisheries in Scotland are of particular importance. They produce as much as 15 per cent. of our whole Scottish catch and they give employment to a very large number of hardy and industrious men. As a result of the grave depression which has fallen upon the herring industry, a great many Scottish fishermen have turned to white fishing as a means of livelihood, in many cases with conspicuous success, and we hope that this process will be followed by others. My right hon. Friend pointed out a moment ago that shell fish are included as white fish for the purposes of this Bill.
  708
  The lobster fisheries off our Scottish coasts are very valuable and they afford a means of livelihood to many inshore men, including a considerable number who are partly employed in crofting. The interest of Scotland in this Bill is a very great one, and it is perhaps of particular interest to note that the presidents of two of the leading organisations in the trade—the Trawlers' Federation and the Wholesalers Distributors' Federation—are both Scotsmen; while the Sea Fish Commission, whose recommendations are so closely followed in the Bill, had for its chairman another Scotsman, Sir Andrew Duncan. I have no doubt that Scottish talent will continue to contribute its full share to the welfare of this industry.
  I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman opposite for his kindness in restricting himself to such a narrow space of time in order, as he said, to make it possible for me to reply not only to his side of the House, but to my own colleagues. As we hope to leave a few minutes for the Financial Resolution before Eleven o'clock I think that, in spite of his great generosity, it will not be possible for me to cover the whole of the ground—indeed a great many of the points which have been raised in the Debate are really Committee points—but I shall do my best to abstract from the Debate the main questions of principle which have been raised in the course of it. One question of principle which has been brought up on both side of the House is the position of the fishermen themselves. What share of the benefits of this Bill is to go to them, and have their interests received as much consideration as the interests of those who own or control the industry? Another question is the matter of consumption. What is the position of the consumer, and what is the present state of prices? What danger is there of a rise in prices as a result of the Bill? Another matter of principle raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot), who has informed me that he is obliged to be absent for an important engagement in the country, was that of the danger of monopoly and the possible lack of control of Parliament.
  A great many of my hon. Friends have asked many urgent and searching questions on the subject of foreign imports. Let me say a few words first on the question of imported fish, because many of

  709
  my hon. Friends have argued that the provisions of this Bill would really be of no avail without some control of foreign imported fish. One hon. Member even said that he would prefer to have the recommendations of Part V of the Duncan Report, and not to have any of the other provisions, in the Bill. Hon. Members who have taken this view have asked for three things to be done. They have asked not so much for the total amount of foreign imports to be limited as for those imports to be spread out with less irregularity from month to month. If we take the whole amount of the foreign imports they constitute only about 10 per cent. of our whole consumption. It may not, therefore, be that they have a very great effect on prices, but we recognise that the disadvantageous consequences to the price of the fish which may arise from those imports are not so much due to their total volume as to their very great irregularity.
  Hon. Members also asked that the provision for the fixing of minimum prices as provided for in the Bill shall be applied to foreign fish, and that the limitation of the amount of fish that may be caught on one trip, although it cannot be applied to foreign ships, should be applied to any fish which a foreign ship is able to land at any particular time. I must make it plain that all these matters are outside the purview of this Bill, but the most important of them, the possibility of limiting or spreading out more evenly the quantity of fish imported from abroad is not a thing that would require legislation. It can be done under the ordinary procedure of our trade agreements. The subjection of foreign cargoes to a minimum price and the limitation of the total quantity to be landed in one ship would require legislation, and are matters of very great difficulty. All I can say with regard to these matters is that we appreciate their importance, that my right hon. Friend intends to discuss them with his colleagues and that the fullest weight will be given to the considerations which have been advanced in this Debate.
  I come now to the question of consumption. The right hon. Member apposite very rightly said that it is the consumer who alone constitutes a remunerative market. The Minister in moving the Second Reading of the Bill declared that its primary object was to provide the public with a plentiful supply of fish at attractive prices. The hon. Member for
  710
  Seaham asked a number of questions concerning the price of fish and asked why it was that people do not eat more fish. He said that that fact was very remarkable. I should like to say a few words about the figures he gave. I think he said that the average consumption of fish was 28 lbs. per head in this country. I think the figure is 45 lbs. per head.
  Mr. Shinwell: Are you taking into account waste and export?
  Mr. Wedderburn: Yes.
  Mr. Shinwell: Where do you get the figures?
  Mr. Wedderburn: They are figures which are officially supplied to us by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries.
  Mr. Shinwell: Then why were not these figures revealed in the Duncan Report?
  Mr. Wedderburn: The Duncan Report was published some little time ago. I was merely quoting the figures as a matter of interest and was agreeing with the hon. Member's proposition that the total consumption is not as great as we could wish it to be. The hon. Member wondered whether the reason was because the price was too high, and he quoted figures from the report which showed that the retail price of fish is roughly double the wholesale price. The report goes on to say that that makes no allowance for wastage arising from filleting, etc., and that if you allow for that the cost may perhaps he treble instead of double the wholesale price. I think the figure of 1s. per lb. which he gave from the Civil Service Stores list is perhaps rather misleading. It is difficult to get an average figure for the retail price of fish because it varies so much in accordance with the quality of the service. If we are to get an average figure I think we should be more accurate if we accept the statement in the report, that if you do not allow for wastage it is roughly double but that if you do it would be three times the wholesale price.
  Mr. Shinwell: Does the Under-Secretary suggest that the average retail price of fish is 6d. per lb.?
  Mr. Wedderburn: As I have said, it is exceedingly difficult to get an average because of the variations between the places where fish is sold; between one shop where there is an elaborate service and elaborate buildings and a shop where

  711
  the service and equipment are not so elaborate. The variation between them is much greater than the variation between wholesale and retail prices. The Economic Advisory Council which was appointed by the Government in 1929 reported that there was no undue charge made in the various stages between the producers' price and the price actually paid by the consumer. The question we have to consider is how to make it more attractive for people to eat more fish. My own view is that the reason why the consumption of fish is not greater is not so much because of the price as the very large proportion of fish now offered to the public which is, quite frankly, not very palatable, particularly since fishing in distant waters has developed so much and such a large proportion of fish is being brought long distances. The Bill is, first, an attempt to make provision for the better packing and icing of fish; secondly, to reduce the proportion of this fish in relation to the amount of near-water fish that are caught; and, thirdly, to have a better system of grading fish, so that the inferior long-distance fish shall not be mixed up with the higher quality fish which are caught nearer land.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is it not the case that 80 per cent. of what the hon. Member calls coarse fish, which he says is unpalatable, is sold in the fried fish shops of the country?
  Mr. Wedderburn: I think the figure is about 60 per cent., but I do not know how that affects the argument. Before I leave the question of consumption, I want to remove one or two misapprehensions which were expressed by the hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff). The hon. Member was afraid that my right hon. Friend, in making his appointments to the Sea Fish Commission or to the Joint Council, would choose persons who were more concerned with their own financial advantage than the good of the public. He informed us that certain ladies of his acquaintance, whom he did not specify but whose identity we should all be interested to know, had an unenviable past. But he must not suppose that those dubious qualities are shared by my right hon. Friend, who is, like Caesar's wife, above suspicion, and whose practice in making these appointments will be governed by that wisdom
  712
  and virtue which I am sure prevails among the more respectable acquaintances of the hon. Member opposite.
  The hon. Member, I think with some reason, pointed out that the way to get people to eat more fish was to make them think it was more desirable to indulge in a larger expenditure on advertising, although the right hon. Gentleman who wound up for the Opposition condemned the idea of more advertising as being a pathetic mistake. Perhaps the hon. Member may know of the variety of salmon, found in Western Canada, which has a rather ugly kind of yellow flesh. An enterprising American salesman canned, or tinned, a large quantity of this salmon, which he distributed throughout the United States in tins which were marked: "Highest quality genuine salmon; guaranteed not to turn pink. "He charged slightly more for it than was charged for pink salmon, and made a large fortune. The hon. Member may perhaps have noticed, in Clause 1i of the Bill, that one of the purposes of setting up marketing schemes in the industry is to take measures for increasing the consumption of white fish, whether by means of advertising or the giving of demonstrations and instruction with regard to the use thereof. I hope that the advertising will be on a strictly honourable basis.
  As to the question of monopoly, which my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee raised, the purpose of the Bill is not to establish a monopoly but to have a more efficient and better organised system of marketing. It aims, on the producing side, at doing several things. I have already referred to the inferior fish which come from a distance, and to the contention that they should be graded and better packed. The Bill also is designed to regulate the seasonal quantity of fish which comes into the market, not to restrict the total supply over the whole year but to provide that the market at some particular moment shall not be flooded with an excessive quantity. It is designed to bring about a removal of all these disadvantages due to the present disorganised state, both on the producing and on the distributive side, about which so much was said just now by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander).

  713
  Let me, in conclusion, come to what is perhaps the most important point of principle which has been brought up in this Debate, that of the position of the fishermen. Of course, it is, in the first place, to their advantage that more fish should be sold and more fish should be eaten. We have already debated the possible means by which that can be brought about. My right hon. Friend gave one historical method of increasing 'the consumption of fish which was adopted by King Edward VI—the establishment of fast days on Wednesdays and Fridays, which were compulsory. I do not know whether at that time Wednesdays and Fridays were private Members' days in the House of Commons. To-day the method of compulsion might not produce quite the intended result, but the whole of the methods contained in this Bill are ultimately intended to benefit the fishermen themselves. As for the hon. Member for Seaham, I think he acknowledged the benefit under Clause 48 of the Bill, in which the Superintendent of the Board of Trade has power to inspect the catch and to make sure that the agreed percentage of profit is given to the men without any complaint being made. There is no question of victimisation, because the Board of Trade has power to do it in all cases whether any complaint is made or not. With' regard to present earnings, I think it is unquestioned that the total receipts earned by fishermen are a great deal lower than they were last year because of the fall in prices.
  I think my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Law) was quite right in pointing out that the additional bonus of 2d in the pound might come to even more than the fixed wage of £2 in times when prices are satisfactory, but of course when prices are not satisfactory it may not amount to very much. But the whole of the provisions of the Bill are designed to bring a better price to the producer without raising prices to the consumer, by eliminating waste. The primary object is to bring a higher and more satisfactory standard of life to a class of men whose work is of such high value to our country, to our food supply in time of peace and to our protection in time of danger.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  SEA FISH INDUSTRY [MONEY].
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 6g.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for the better organisation of the white fish industry, to amend the Sea-Fishing Industry Act, 1933, the Whaling Industry (Regulation) Act, 1934, Part IV of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and other enactments relating to sea fisheries, and to make provision for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is experient to authorize—

  (1) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

  (a) of such remuneration to the members, officers and servants of the White Fish Commission, the consumers' committee and the committee of investigation which are to be constituted under the said Act, as may be approved by the Treasury;

  (b) of the amounts necessary to defray such expenses of the said Commission (other than expenses which, by virtue of the said Act, are to he defrayed out of a fund to be established under the control of the said Commission), such expenses of the White Fish Industry Joint Council to be constituted under the said Act, and such expenses of the said consumers' committee and committee of investigation, as may be approved by the Treasury;

  (c) of the amount of any sum certified, with the approval of the Treasury, to represent the expenses properly incurred by any person in connection with the preparation and promotion of any scheme under the said Act which is therein referred to as a marketing scheme, being expenses incurred in a case where a Motion made in Parliament for the approval of the scheme is negatived or withdrawn;

  (d) of not more than ten thousand pounds in all to be used, with the approval of the Treasury, in making, during the period of five years beginning at the commencement of the said Act, loans for the purpose of providing for expenses incurred in connection with the initial operation of any scheme under the said Act which is therein referred to as a co-operative scheme; and

  (e) of the amounts necessary to defray any expenses incurred in pursuance of the said Act by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or a Secretary of State; and

  (2) the payment into the Exchequer of all sums received under the said Act by the said Commission, other than sums which, by virtue of the said Act, are to be paid into the said fund.—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]

  10.55 p.m.
  Mr. Garro Jones: May I ask whether it is proposed to make any provision for

  715
  the payment of the independent chairman of the Joint Council and the independent members of the marketing boards? I think everybody recognises that a great deal of work in the interests of the industry will be done by the chairman of the Joint Council and the three or four independent members of each marketing board. Is it proposed to make any arrangement as regards their payment?
  10.56 p.m.
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: That is a question which one could not answer in advance of the coming into operation of the Bill. It is sometimes possible, in my Department, to get the services of an independent man in one of these posts for no remuneration. In other cases the circumstances of the best man who is available may make it advisable that he should be remunerated out of the public funds for the duties which he performs. Until the Bill has become law, it will not be possible to proceed to the selection and appointment of the persons who are to fill these posts, and I would, therefore, ask the hon. Member to wait until a later stage when it will be possible to give him the information for which he asks.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to secure that precautions shall be taken with a view to the protection of persons and property from injury or damage in the event of hostile attack from the air, it is expedient to provide for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be necessary to defray—

  (a) any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in the general superintendence and direction of measures taken under the said Act, or in providing such services and training such persons and acquiring such equipment, appliances, and other material as he considers it necessary to furnish for the purpose of affording such protection as aforesaid; and

  (b) the cost of grants to local authorities in respect of expenditure approved by the Secretary of State incurred by them whether before or after the passing of the said Act, not exceeding in the case of any authority a percentage of the approved expenditure of the authority not less than sixty per cent. nor more than seventy-five per cent. determined by reference to
  716
  scales graduated according to the proportion which the weighted population bears to the estimated population:

  Provided that, if the approved expenditure of a local authority for any year exceeds the grant to the authority calculated as aforesaid by an amount in excess of the produce of a rate in England of one penny or in Scotland of four-fifths of a penny in the pound, the grant payable in respect of so much of the approved expenditure as would cause the levying of a rate in excess of one penny or four-fifths of a penny in the pound, as the case may be, may be a percentage thereof determined by reference to the scales aforesaid but not in any case less than seventy-five per cent. nor more than eighty-five per cent.
  For the purposes of this Resolution the expressions 'weighted population' and 'estimated population' mean respectively the weighted population and the estimated population of the county, county borough, City of London, metropolitan borough, or large burgh, as the case may be, or, in relation to the council of a county district or small burgh, of the county in which the district or small burgh is situated, as determined at the date of the commencement of the said Act for the purpose of the apportionment of the General Exchequer Contribution under the Local Government Acts, 1929."
  Resolution agreed to.

  HOUSING (AGRICULTURAL POPULATION) (SCOTLAND) [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to authorise the giving of financial assistance towards the expenses incurred by local authorities in providing housing accommodation for the agricultural population; to promote the provision of new housing accommodation to replace accommodation which is occupied by members of the agricultural population and is unfit for human habitation or overcrowded; to amend the provisions of the Housing (Scotland) Acts, 1925 to 5935, relating to insanitary dwelling-houses; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid (hereinafter referred to as 'the said Act of the present Session'), it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament:
  A. Of such expenses as may be incurred by the Department of Health for Scotland (hereinafter referred to as 'the Department')—
  (1) in making contributions towards any expenses incurred by a local authority in providing under Part III of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1925, housing accommodation for the agricultural population, in so far as such accommodation is provided with the approval of the Department, in houses the erection of which has been, or is, begun on or after the third day of November, nineteen hundred and thirty-seven, so however that such a contribution shall be of such amount, not being less than ten pounds ten shillings, as the Department may with

  717
  the sanction of the Treasury determine, payable annually for a period of forty years in respect of each house Provided with the approval of the Department:
  Provided that the amount of the contribution payable in respect of any house shall not exceed fifteen pounds unless the Department are satisfied that the annual expenditure likely to be incurred by the county council in respect of the house is, in consequence of the remoteness of the site thereof from centres of supply of building labour and material, substantially greater than the equivalent of nineteen pounds ten shillings per annum for forty years;
  (2) in making contributions towards any expenses incurred with the approval of the Department by a local authority in giving assistance on application made within five years after the passing of the said Act of the present Session (such assistance being given by way of payment of a lump sum not exceeding either (a) one-half of the cost of the house; or (b) one hundred and sixty pounds in the case of a house containing three apartments, or two hundred pounds in the case of a house containing more than three apartments) for the provision of housing accommodation in new houses in replacement of—

  (a) houses or premises which, being unfit for human habitation are not capable at a reasonable expense of being rendered so fit, are to be demolished or closed under Part II of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, and which are—

  (i) houses, or other premises situated on a farm and occupied in accordance with their contracts of service by agricultural workers employed thereon; or

  (ii) houses occupied by owner occupiers of farms who are of substantially the same economic condition as agricultural workers, or by statutory small tenants, or by landholders; or

  (iii) houses in the Highlands and Islands occupied by members of the agricultural population who are of substantially the same economic condition as landholders:

  (b) houses or other premises situated on a farm and occupied in accordance with their contracts of service by agricultural workers employed thereon, which are not in all respects fit for human habitation or are overcrowded and which by the execution of works of reconstruction will be combined with adjoining occupied houses or premises and will cease to be occupied as separate houses or premises;

  So, however, that such a contribution shall be made by way of annual payments for a period of forty years from the completion of the house in respect of which assistance is given, and shall be of
  718
  an amount equal, in any case where assistance is given in respect of any such house as is mentioned in sub-paragraphs (ii) or (iii) of the foregoing paragraph (a) which is situated in the Highlands and Islands, to seven-eighths, and in any other case in which assistance is given to three-quarters of the estimated average annual payments falling to be made by the local authority in respect of the charges on account of loans raised by them for the purposes of payments made by way of assistance, or which would have fallen to be made if the sums so expended by them had been raised by means of loans.
  B. Of such additional sums as may become payable under section twenty-three of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, or under section thirty of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1925, by reason of any provision of the said Act of the present Session amending section thirty-three of the said Housing (Scotland) Act. 1935, so as to apply to the contributions referred to in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph A of this Resolution;
  C. Of such additional expenses as may be incurred by the Department by reason of any provision of the said Act of the present Session that the provisions of Part II. of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, relating to insanitary dwelling-houses shall have effect in relation to premises occupied by agricultural workers in like manner as if they were dwelling-houses notwithstanding that the premises are used for sleeping purposes only.
  For the purposes of this Resolution the expression 'agricultural population' means persons who are or in their latest occupation were engaged in agriculture or in an industry mainly dependent on agriculture, and includes the dependants of such persons as aforesaid; the expression 'agriculture' means the use of land for agricultural or pastoral purposes or for the purpose of poultry-farming or market-gardening or as an orchard or woodlands or for the purpose of afforestation; the expression 'Highlands and Islands' means the counties of Argyll, Caithness, Inverness, Ross and Cromarty, Sutherland, Orkney and Zetland; and the expressions 'landholder' and 'statutory small tenant' have the meanings assigned to them by the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1886 to 1931."
  Resolution agreed to.

  ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) ACTS.
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1936, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, and the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930, in respect of part of the rural district of Williton, in the county of Somerset, which was presented on the 26th day of October, 1937, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electrcity

  719
  (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1936, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, and the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930, in respect of the townships of Ightenhill and Worsthorn-withHurstwood and part of the township of Habergham Eaves, all in the rural district of Burnley, in the county palatine of Lancaster, which was presented on the 26th day of October, 1937, be approved."—[Captain Austin tin Hudson.]

  PUBLIC PETITIONS.
  Ordered,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to whom shall be referred all Petitions presented to the House, with the exception of such as relate to Private Bills, and that such Committee do classify and prepare abstracts of the same in such form and manner as shall appear to them best suited to convey to the House all requisite information respecting their contents, and do report the same from time to time to the House; and that the Reports of the Committee do set forth, in respect of each Petition, the number of signatures which are accompanied by addresses, and which are written on sheets headed in every case by the prayer of the Petition, provided that on every sheet after the first the prayer may be reproduced in print or by other mechanical process; and that such Committee have power to direct the printing in extenso of such Petitions, or of such parts of Petitions as shall appear to require it; and that such Committee have power to report their opinion and observations thereupon to the House."
  Committee nominated of Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte, Mr. Batey, Sir Edward Campbell, Sir Charles Cayzer, Mr. Cary, Mr. Chater, Mr. Clement Davies, Mr. Daggar, Captain Alan Graham, Sir Percy Hurd, Sir Haydn Jones, Brigadier-General Makins, Mr. Marcus Samuel, Mr. Annesley Somerville, and Mr. Viant.
  Ordered,
  "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."
  Ordered,
  "That Three be the quorum."—[Mr. James Stuart].

  PUBLICATIONS AND DEBATES.
  Ordered,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to assist Mr. Speaker in the arrangements for the Report of Debates and to inquire into the expenditure on stationery and printing for this House and the public services generally."
  Committee nominated of.—Sir Reginald Clarry, Sir Francis Fremantle, Mr. Hall-Caine, Mr. Lunn, Dr. George Morrison, Mr. Naylor, Mr. F. O. Roberts, Sir Nairne Stewart Sandeman, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueter, Mr. Graham White, and Mr. Charles Williams.
  Ordered,
  "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."
  Ordered,
  "That the Committee have power to report from time to time."
  Ordered,
  "That Three be the quorum."—[Mr. James Stuart.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  UNEMPLOYMENT (BENEFIT AND ASSISTANCE).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  11.4 p.m.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: We desire to produce evidence, within the short time at our disposal, of the need for an increase in benefit and allowances for the unemployed of this country. We are raising this question because of the large number of resolutions which have been passed by municipalities, trade councils, and other organisations throughout this country, and we are raising this question for the following main reasons: First, we consider that the present standards are already too low. We consider that it is not the fault of the men and women that they are employed, and that it is most unfair, unreasonable and mean that their dependants, and particularly their women and children, should be allowed to suffer the mental torture which they are suffering at the present time because of the already too low benefits. We say that there is no justification in the year 1937 for the maintenance of these standards. We are raising the question, secondly, because of the large surplus in the Unemployment Fund. According to statements recently made, the approximate state of that fund at the end of this financial year will be £60,000,000. We contend that the fund could well afford an increase of at least 10 per cent. in unemployment benefit and dependants' allowances in order to keep pace with the increased cost of living.
  We are raising this question, thirdly, because we consider that the Government should give instructions to the Unemployment Assistance Board that, owing to the increase in the cost of living, the benefits

  721
  and allowances paid by the Board should should be at once increased. We are not asking the Government to take our evidence of the need for this. We ask them to be good enough to turn to the report published by the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee dealing with the 1935 period. If the Minister will turn to page 16 he will find the following words:
  "If at any time a further surplus were available, we should not exclude investigation of the need for extending the period of benefit or easing the conditions for re-qualifications."
  On page 17 they go on to state:
  "Though the responsibility for final decision rests not with us but with the Government and Parliament, we are required to make a definite recommendation."
  Our experience is that when it is left to this committee to report the whole issue is prejudiced, and when their report comes before the House the Government accept it and automatically, owing to their large majority, they are able to carry the recommendations without alteration. We would be lacking in our duty at the present time if we did not raise this issue before the Statutory Committee came to a decision in order that they can consider the evidence produced in this House, the national assembly of the people. On page 20 the committee state:
  "Broadly speaking, the longer an individual has been unemployed, the greater his need for benefit or assistance, because his other resources will have been exhausted."
  On page 21 they say:
  "Any increase of unemploymer t benefit rates in general should now be made only after full consideration by Parliament as an act of deliberate social policy."
  In view of the relative improvement in trade there is no excuse for not putting into operation the suggestions of the committee. If he looks at page 30 of the report the Minister will see that all the evidence suggested that the time had now come for an increase in unemployment benefit and allowances, and that the only evidence against that view was that given by the National Confederation of Employers. On the basis of that report alone, and without bringing forward any other evidence, we say that the time has now come for an increase.
  It is generally agreed that there has been an increase in the cost of living, and that makes the matter one of urgency. The other day I was reading "Lloyds Bank Review," which published
  722
  official figures showing that the rise in the cost of living in the past six years had been at least 10 per cent. What is often lost sight of by those who have not experienced these conditions themselves, or have not been in close contact with the people for whom we speak, is that the smaller the income of a family the larger is the proportion of it which has to be spent on food. Those who have suffered most from the rise in the cost of living are those who with relatively low wages, and those who have to depend on unemployment benefits and Unemployment Assistance Board allowances. "Lloyds Bank Review" says also that in certain areas the cost of living has risen more than in other areas. Had there been time I could have quoted the figures, but I wish to give the Minister adequate time in which to reply, and I hope that I shall be excused if I do not give the figures which otherwise I should have produced. According to that Review the increase is greatest in those areas where there is a bigger proportion of unemployed than in the relatively prosperous areas in the South of England. In Scotland, in the North-East, the North-West and certain parts of the Midlands, where the relative number of unemployed is greater than in the South, the cost of living has gone up higher than elsewhere.
  The Minister has told us, in answer to a number of questions, that in the case of those coming under the Unemployment Assistance Board he intends to leave things to the discretion of the officers of the Board. I understood that the main purpose of the Act setting up that Board was to bring about uniformity of administration throughout the country, but the granting of increases to meet the rise in the cost of living is to be left to the discretion of the officers, the main purpose of the Act will be defeated. It will lead to varying interpretations in different parts of the country of the Circular which has been sent out. We say there is only one right way to deal with the matter, and that is for the Minister to give instructions that the scale of benefits shall be increased. It is not fair to the officers of the Board to leave it to their discretion. Feeling is very high in those centres where the number of the unemployed is high, and as a result of the public feeling and the pressure of public opinion the officers, who, generally speaking, are trying to administer the regulations in as

  723
  generous a way as possible, will be placed in a most difficult position. We, therefore, say that benefit and allowances should be increased and a circular be sent out by the Ministry of Labour through the Unemployment Assistance Board.
  Some few months ago the Trades Union Congress were in consultation with the Minister of Labour on this question. The Trades Union Congress sent a letter to the Minister of Labour, who replied and the Congress sent a further reply. Since that day, the Congress have not received any further reply, despite the fact that the position has become worse since the correspondence took place. Ministers quote at various times Trades Union Congress reports when it suits them to do so. I ask them to be good enough to examine further reports which have been published by the Trades Union Congress dealing with the issue which we are now raising, and I am prepared to leave it to them, if they will give these reports the same consideration as they have given to the others.
  In these days, unemployment is not the fault of the individual. I know the people of this country as well as do most people, and I say without hesitation that 99 out of ion unemployed men and women would run to a job to-morrow if it were offered to them. If hon. Members accept that statement, and I am sure they would if they knew the unemployed, let me ask them why it is that people are unemployed. First of all, we say that it is because of the social system. But it is no use talking about that to-night. I am concerned to-night about immediate results. The Staffordshire Employment Exchanges conducted an investigation on their own a few months ago, and the conclusions they came to were published in the "Staffordshire Sentinel" on 27th August, as follow:
  "Investigations by the North Staffordshire Employment Exchanges have revealed some interesting facts regarding local industries and provide evidence of the degree of mechanisation and rationalisation in the main source of employment in the district. Figures for the present year, compared with those for so years, show that in the colliery industry there has been a decline of 25 per cent. in the number of men employed, despite the great increase in production, the greater output and the present boom. There is a slight increase in the numbers employed in the colliery industry, although in this industry production has also considerably increased."
  724
  The fact is that the increase in production in British industry is relatively greater than in any other country in the world. We, therefore, say that rather than let the unemployed exist on the benefits that they are receiving, having regard to the increase in the cost of living, to the present £60,000,000 surplus in the unemployment fund and to the mechanisation and rationalisation which has increased output and improved the competitive position of British industry in the world market, this House would be lacking in its duty if it did not bring this issue to the front and ask the Government to use their influence with the Unemployment Assistance Board and the Statutory Committee so that the unemployed might live in better conditions than they have at present.
  11.20 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Butler): I should like, first, to register my agreement with the natural anxiety of the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. E. Smith) about the conditions, especially of those who are living on assistance or insurance benefit; but I cannot share to the same extent as he does the feeling of pessimism about present conditions. He must remember that, despite the increase in mechanisation which he fears so much for his own district, and which we have had an opportunity of seeing for ourselves during this autumn, with that increased mechanisation there is a larger number of people employed than ever before in this country. That is an important fact for those people who dread the arrival of machines to remember. However, it is not for me to enter to-night into a disquisition on machinery and I will at once come to the subject of his complaint. When questioning the Minister on 11th November, the hon. Member gave notice that he would raise this question at an early date and I am much obliged to him for choosing to-night, which happens to be convenient from our point of view. The resolution passed by the town council of the City of Stoke-on-Trent reads as follows:
  "This council urges the Minister of Labour to reconsider his decision respecting his refusal to increase the benefit to those in receipt of unemployment assistance benefit out of the accumulated surplus in the Unemployment Insurance Fund and the Unemployment Assistance Benefit Fund."

  725
  I should point out a confusion of thought in that resolution, because it is shared by a good many people. The resolution supposes that it is possible to pay out of the Unemployment Insurance Fund money for unemployment assistance. I must make it clear that it is not out of the surplus of the Unemployment Insurance Fund that assistance is paid. Assistance is paid direct from the Exchequer and is based on need. That is the whole underlying motive of those who assess the need of those who need assistance. Therefore it is very confusing that this council should have passed a resolution from which it may be thought that money for assistance can be paid out of the reserve or surplus of a fund which is intended to relieve unemployment by insurance, and I want to make that point perfectly clear at the beginning. I should like also to make clear the distinction between assistance which is based on need and insurance benefit which is worked out on an actuarial calculation according to the contributions paid into the fund.
  Having got this point clear, I think we can see that there is confusion in the resolution, but I do not want to spend the whole of my time over the resolution. I will come to the point raised by the hon. Member about unemployment assistance. He does not like the method suggested by the Board, which my right hon. Friend has announced in this House, and which is contained in the circular issued by the Board, a copy of which is in the Library. It instructs the Board's officers to deal with all cases on their merits, and the Board desire special attention to be given to households where a substantial part, say, not less than half, of the total household income, is represented by the allowance from the Board. We are informed that the Board expects that in many households an addition of from 2s. to 3s. would meet the requirements, if the household is of normal size and composition, and a larger or smaller sum may, of course, be added, where the circumstances of the case warrant. We thought that those instructions were the most sensible that could possibly be made under present conditions. At present, the Board's officers are engaged in carrying out those instructions. This is a definite attempt to help by unemployment: assistance families which may he adversely affected by rises in the cost of living. We
  726
  think that this is the most successful way of dealing with the problem of those living on assistance.
  The hon. Member said he thought the object of the Act and the Regulations was to introduce uniformity of administration. So it is. We have uniformity of administration, and the board is carrying out a system of relieving those in need, unrivalled and unequalled in the history of this country. I have seen in counties all over the country the board's officers at work, and I cannot pay too high a tribute to the manner in which each household is investigated personally by the officer. The whole success, I think, is based on the personal attention given by the officers and the Advisory Committee.
  Mr. E. Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman say a word, before the time expires, on the insurance method?
  Mr. Butler: The hon. Gentleman can always trust me to cover all points. I am coming to the insurance side. On the administration side, I think this method is best.
  Mr. T. Smith: I suppose we may take it, that that is the hon. Gentleman's last word?
  Mr. Butler: The hon. Member can take it that we support the action of the board, which we think is best. At the request of the hon. Gentleman, I come to the question of insurance. The Unemployment Insurance Act provides, as the hon. Gentleman knows, that the Statutory Committee shall, at the end of the financial year, review the whole problem of the financial condition of the fund. They are further empowered, before making any financial report, to give notice of their intention, and to take into consideration any representations made to them. I can tell the House to-night, in reply to the hon. Gentleman's anxieties, that the Statutory Committee have every intention in the near future to give this notice of their intention and to take into consideration representations which we hope will be made to them before the end of the present year. The hon. Gentleman will see that notice issued in due course over the next few days, and that Committee, I am informed, will take into consideration representations, as they have done in the past.

  727
  This matter of reporting to the Government upon the state of the fund is a statutory duty laid upon the Insurance Committee. They will perform it, I am sure, with the same ability as they have done in past years, and they will, I am sure, report, as they have in the past, upon the condition of the fund as they see it at the end of this financial year. When they report, the Government will give their report the same anxious and close consideration that they have given to previous reports which they have received from them. The hon. Gentleman quoted various extracts, into which there is no time to go in detail, from their report of 1935. I may remind him that since those remarks were made by
  728
  the committee they have themselves reduced the waiting period and have reduced the contributions. Therefore, the optimistic remarks made by the Insurance Committee were thus carried out. The hon. Gentleman no doubt hopes that the committee will make further remarks which have a similar desirable effect. That I cannot foretell. I can only tell him that it is the committee's intention to receive immediately representations, as it is their statutory duty to do, and then to report at the end 0# the financial year. It will then be for the Government to consider what they have said.
  It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (LIGHTING).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (LIGHTING).
PALESTINE.
  BRITISH POLICY.
  BRITISH POLICY.
  POLICE OFFICERS' DEATHS (PENSIONS).
  POLICE OFFICERS' DEATHS (PENSIONS).
  JERUSALEM UNIVERSITY (FINANCIAL AID.)
  JERUSALEM UNIVERSITY (FINANCIAL AID.)
  KENYA (OIL EXPLORATION).
  KENYA (OIL EXPLORATION).
  SALE OF POISONS.
  SALE OF POISONS.
  PRISON SERVICE.
  PRISON SERVICE.
AGRICULTURE.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  MILK MARKETING.
  MILK MARKETING.
  POTATO PRODUCTION.
  POTATO PRODUCTION.
  CROWN LANDS (PURCHASES).
  CROWN LANDS (PURCHASES).
COAL INDUSTRY.
  COLLIERY AMALGAMATIONS.
  COLLIERY AMALGAMATIONS.
  GERMANY (EXPORTS).
  GERMANY (EXPORTS).
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (OLD AGE PENSIONERS).
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (OLD AGE PENSIONERS).
CIVIL SERVICE.
  PENSIONS.
  PENSIONS.
  ENFORCED RETIREMENTS.
  ENFORCED RETIREMENTS.
  SUB-POSTMASTERSHIP, EVIE, ORKNEY.
  SUB-POSTMASTERSHIP, EVIE, ORKNEY.
  BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION (STAFF).
  BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION (STAFF).
SCOTLAND.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  WHIPPING ORDERS.
  WHIPPING ORDERS.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  MEN OVER 55 YEARS OF AGE.
  MEN OVER 55 YEARS OF AGE.
  LIVE REGISTER STATISTICS.
  LIVE REGISTER STATISTICS.
  TEXTILE WORKERS, DEWSBURY.
  TEXTILE WORKERS, DEWSBURY.
  COAL MINERS, DEWSBURY.
  COAL MINERS, DEWSBURY.
  DEFENCE (CALCIUM CARBIDE PRODUCTION).
  DEFENCE (CALCIUM CARBIDE PRODUCTION).
TRANSPORT.
  FIVE-YEARS ROAD PROGRAMME.
  FIVE-YEARS ROAD PROGRAMME.
  MOTOR VEHICLES (USE OF HORNS PROHIBITION, PARIS).
  MOTOR VEHICLES (USE OF HORNS PROHIBITION, PARIS).
  ACCIDENT, WIMBLEDON.
  ACCIDENT, WIMBLEDON.
  ELECTRICITY SUPPLY, SOUTH WALES.
  ELECTRICITY SUPPLY, SOUTH WALES.
  MUI TSAI.
  MUI TSAI.
EDUCATION.
  SCHOOL CANTEENS.
  SCHOOL CANTEENS.
  STRATTON AND HIGHWORTH, WILTSHIRE.
  STRATTON AND HIGHWORTH, WILTSHIRE.

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Earl Cadogan—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his grandfather.

DOMINICA BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill he read a second time. You will find the whole purpose of this Bill in the first clause, which purports to remove Dominica from the Colony of the Leeward Islands and to make it into a separate Colony. The Leeward Islands, which at present consist of the five Presidencies of Antigua, St. Christopher and Nevis, Dominica, Montserrat and the Virgin Islands, were constituted into a Federation by the Leeward Islands Act of 1871. In consequence of that Act it is clear that Dominica cannot be removed from the Federation without an Act of Parliament. It is the intention, should this Bill become law and Dominica so be removed, that it should be governed in future as part of the Windward Islands. The Windward Islands are a group of Colonies under one Governor, but otherwise independent of each other, and, so far as the constitution of these islands is concerned, all that is necessary, in order to bring Dominica within the group, is a geographical extension of the Letters Patent by which the office of Governor is constituted. This Bill confers upon His Majesty in Council power, similar to that vested in him in the case of Grenada and St. Vincent by the St. Vincent, Tobago and Grenada Constitution Act, 1876, and in the case of St. Lucia under the Prerogative, to make provision for the future government of the island by Order in Council. If this Bill is passed into law the transfer of Dominica from the Leeward Islands to the Windward Islands will have to take place on a date subsequent to the Act; but naturally there are
176
various detailed arrangements which will have to be made and some delay will take place before the transfer can actually be effected.
The Island of Dominica, which is about twice the size of the Isle of Wight, was ceded to Great Britain by France in 1763, and it was then grouped with certain islands under the title of "The Southern Caribee Islands." Your Lordships will notice that among those islands were Grenada and St. Vincent. Therefore, this Bill once again resumes the association of Dominica with two of the Colonies of the Windward group with which it was associated so very long ago. The practical reasons which led His Majesty's Government to consider that this Bill is desirable arise chiefly from the geographical position of Dominica and from its historical tradition. So far as its geographical position is concerned, it is the most southerly of the Presidencies of the Leeward Islands, and lies between the two French Islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique. In view of that geographical position, and of the island's tropical climate, the economic interests of Dominica are entirely different from those of the other Presidencies of the Leeward Islands. The two principal exports of the Leeward Islands Colony as a whole are sugar and cotton, neither of which is produced in Dominica. On the other hand, Dominica produces the greater proportion of the tropical products which are included in the exports of the Leeward Islands, but which also form the major part of the products of the Windward Islands. So far as historical associations are concerned, the racial characteristics of the inhabitants, their language, which is a French patois, and their religion, which is predominantly Roman Catholic, are far more allied to the Colonies of the Windward than to the other Presidencies of the Leewards.
Therefore, I think it is fair to say that Dominica has many interests and problems in common with the Colonies of the Windward Islands, and that it is particularly necessary and desirable to secure a fuller consideration of those problems owing to the unfortunate and unsatisfactory state of the Presidency's finances at the present moment. It is perfectly true that the transfer of Dominica would result in the loss to the island of certain services which it at present shares with the other Presidencies of the Federation,

177
but it is the considered opinion of the Governor that there will be little difficulty in making other arrangements for the continuation of these services without any great increase in expenditure.
This Bill is by no means the result of a sudden thought which has come to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies. There have been Royal Commissions in the past, notably in 1883 and 1897, both of which clearly stressed the fundamental difference that separates Dominica from the other Presidencies of the Leeward Islands. As Sir Robert Hamilton, the Commissioner of 1897, points out, the local measures suitable for Antigua and the other islands of the Leewards are almost necessarily unsuitable for Dominica, which is separated from them by 150 miles of sea and differs from them in physical configuration and in products, history, language, religion and sentiment. Furthermore, the wishes of the inhabitants to be removed from the Federation, which have been made abundantly clear for many years, culminated in 1934 when the majority, if not indeed all, of the leading citizens of the island addressed a petition to the Governor in which they asked that the Presidency should be withdrawn from the Leeward Islands Federation and united with the Windward Islands group. In the recent elections held in March, 1937, more than one candidate succeeded in obtaining his seat by advocating such a policy.
The Governor of the Leewards has very carefully examined the position with regard to the transfer of Dominica. He has taken into consideration all the unofficial information that he could obtain, and as a result of that examination, and having taken counsel of the Governor of the Windwards and being assured by him that he sees no difficulty in the transfer, he has come to the conclusion that Dominica should be transferred and that both groups will benefit by the transfer, in so far as we shall create a larger but homogeneous Windward Islands group and at the same time a smaller but equally homogeneous Leeward Islands group. The Governor of the Leewards is also of the opinion that the transfer will do no harm but will probably do good to the other Presidencies of the Federation. Therefore, after a very careful consideration of all aspects of the matter, and taking into
178
full account the Governor's strong recommendation and the clear indication of local public opinion, His Majesty's Government have reached the firm conclusion that the transfer of Dominica should be carried out in its own interests. They accept the view that such a transfer will not do any harm to the Presidencies of the Leeward Islands, and they hope, on the contrary, that this Bill will do good to both groups of islands. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava.)
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I venture to intervene in this debate for a few minutes, having had the honour to administer two of His Majesty's Colonies in the Windward Islands before and during a part of the War, and therefore having some cognisance of this question and of this Bill which the noble Marquess has brought before your Lordships' House today in such felicitous language. I feel that this Bill is the happy culmination of a very difficult controversy which has been going on for many years. I remember that, when I was in the West Indies, Dominica was almost the shuttlecock of a difficult situation in the Leeward Islands. She was constantly resisting her association with the Leeward Islands, principally for the reasons which the noble Marquess has stated in his speech: differences in production of commodities, differences of language, differences of religion and customs.
During that time, because of these differences, the then Administrator succeeded in inducing the Secretary of State for the Colonies to arrange for Dominica to communicate direct with the Colonial Office instead of through the Leeward Islands Governor. However, circumstances alter cases. That same Administrator became Governor of the Leeward Islands and very shortly afterwards undid what he had done as Administrator of Dominica. He induced the Colonial Office to reverse their decision and once more to incorporate Dominica as part of the Leeward Islands in every degree, even to the extent of communicating through the Leeward Islands Governor. This Bill will alter that state of affairs entirely. It will bring Dominica within the sphere of her own conditions by linking her up with the other Windward Islands Colonies. It will also change her

179
constitution in so far as, instead of being a Presidency, she will become one of His Majesty's Colonies. I feel sure, from all that I have heard and from the assurances which have been let fall by the noble Marquess this afternoon, that there is no one in Dominica who will not welcome this step and the Bill which is before your Lordships' House.
But perhaps I may be allowed one moment of reminiscence, to bring up another matter. In 1920, when I was a member of another place, I was fortunately able to induce the then Government to send out a Commission to the West Indies to examine into many problems which required investigation at that time. Our noble Leader, Viscount Halifax, who is now engaged on another very delicate and important mission and therefore is not in his place here to-day, went out to the West Indies as the head of that Commission and was accompanied by Mr. Ormsby-Gore, the present Secretary of State for the Colonies. Before the noble Viscount went to the West Indies I gave him a memorandum which he kindly consented to take with him. In that memorandum I set out certain views with regard to the confederation of certain portions of the West Indies, and these were Trinidad, the Windward Islands and the Leeward Islands. That Commission went and it came back. It recommended that the Windward Islands and Trinidad should be amalgamated or federated in certain respects, subject to the consent of those Colonies, but it left out what in my opinion was a very important part of the proposal, and that was that the Leeward Islands should be included. That proposal of the Commission was not accepted by the Colonies concerned, and I was not surprised that that was their decision; but I venture to hope that now we have got this step forward so far as Dominica is concerned possibly in the future that subject may arise once more, and it may become a practicable object that there should be a confederation for common purposes—not for local purposes but common purposes—between Trinidad, the Windward Islands and the Leeward Islands.
I believe that one of the reasons why the Leeward Islands were not incorporated in the suggestion at that time was that the Governor of the Leeward
180
Islands was very much opposed to the proposal. That Governor was a very forceful man, and he would have lost his job if those proposals had been carried out. Indeed if they had been carried out there would have been two fewer offices in the West Indies—namely, the governorships of the Leeward Islands and of the Windward Islands. If the time does come when such proposals can be considered, the effect on two offices should not be allowed to stand in the way of the much bigger and more important project which I have outlined. With these few words I wish again to welcome this Bill and to congratulate the Government upon having brought it before this House.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

INTERNATIONAL SITUATION.
Debate resumed (according to Order) on the Motion made yesterday by Lord Allen of Hurtwood, to resolve, That this House views with profound anxiety the progressive deterioration in the international situation that has developed during the last few years; supports His Majesty's Government in their determination to ensure this country's strength and in their attempt to find some immediate solution of the successive crises that now confront the world; but would welcome at this stage a statement, to be made either in the British Parliament or at the League of Nations, indicating a comprehensive policy directed to a consideration of the grievances and disabilities from which certain nations claim to be suffering, and outlining the procedure which His Majesty's Government would favour with a view to the ultimate negotiation of an all-round settlement within the framework of the League of Nations and the Pact of Paris.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, may I begin by adding a few words to what was said yesterday on the subject of Mr. Ramsay MacDonald? I enjoyed friendly acquaintance with him for a number of years, which developed into friendship when he was Foreign Secretary and we became officially connected. Full justice has been done both here and elsewhere to the remarkable qualities which distinguished him—the courage which he showed in espousing and stating unpopular opinions, and the

181
personal charm, both racial and individual, which marked him out from other men. I will only further mention what always struck me—namely, his singular adaptability of mind in approaching matters of which he could have had no early or any very special knowledge. That faculty was indicated in the book which he wrote on the Awakening of India, before the War and at the time of his happy married life, and in that, having started to India undoubtedly with some, indeed many, preconceived views, he showed a breadth of view and a fairness which I remember impressed me greatly at the time. Still more was I impressed when he, more under my own observation, had dealings with the French Government when I was in Paris. I will only say of them, that he seemed to me to realise the French standpoints and to enter into the workings of the French mind to a greater extent than many other British statesmen who must have started with far more knowledge of France and the French than he could possibly have done. I feel that in him we are losing not merely a conspicuous but a most sympathetic figure from our public life.
Now I will turn to the subject of the adjourned debate. I am sure that all your Lordships must have been impressed by the marked moderation which the noble Lord, Lord Allen, showed in the course of, indeed throughout, the great speech which we heard yesterday. I will only say of that, that it is an indication of the value which the Cross-Benches—after all, I think, an unique institution in any Parliamentary Assembly I know of—can offer to your Lordships' House and to the country. It is clear from the course of the debate yesterday that your Lordships' minds have been to a great extent, for the purpose of this debate, fixed upon the visit which Lord Halifax is paying to Berlin; and we all agree, I think, that both from his personal character and from his past achievements there is nobody who could be mentioned before him for the purpose of stating the mind of Britain at this difficult time.
Some of your Lordships may have seen various notices published in our Press indicating the views of some of the German newspapers on Lord Halifax's visit, somewhat curiously couched, as it seems to me in certain cases, because they seem to have spoken of the extreme obscurity which apparently surrounds the views of
182
His Majesty's Government on international affairs. One of them spoke of the jungle in which British politics were involved in that regard. The schoolboy retort "You're another" does not as a rule carry discussion very far, but I would say in all seriousness that this is precisely the difficulty which, in spite of the many public declarations made by the German Leader and by his colleagues, seems to me to surround the German foreign policy at this moment. We find it, I am sure, all of us, most difficult to attempt to realise what precisely the ultimate views of the German Government are in regard to the peace of Europe and the world.
Now in the first place it seems to me of extreme importance to clear up, if it can be cleared up, what are the actual facts about the dread of Communism which is so freely expressed in many parts of Europe. We are told on the one side that the Russian Government and the Third International, which at any rate has its moral headquarters in Russia, are still engaged on a kind of Holy War, a sort of Jehad to spread the Communistic faith in every country in which they can get footing. That in the earlier days was generally supposed to be, and I think was admitted to be, their main objective. I remember a friendly conversation with a distinguished Russian, in which he frankly avowed his belief that what had happened in Russia would, in due course, happen in other countries in Europe, and he could not deny that it would have to be brought about by the same sanguinary methods as those which had obtained in his own country. What has happened to him, as to so many other of the earlier distinguished exponents of the Russian faith, I confess I do not know, but I do not see his name mentioned now as taking a conspicuous part in the Russian Government.
How far is it true—to take one side issue—that the real inception of the Spanish civil war was mainly, if not solely, due to Communist manœuvres in Spain? One hears it categorically stated that that is the case, and equally categorically contradicted. I feel sure myself that no appeasement of the European situation can possibly be brought about until the facts in regard to Communism are known and are accepted by all the countries in Europe. Yesterday my noble friend Lord Samuel stated that it would be of great service if Mr. Stalin would repeat what he is reported already

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to have said, that that Holy War is no longer the Russian objective. I entirely agree. I think it would be of the greatest possible service if that could be done, and most serviceable of all if it could be done through the medium of the League of Nations. There are many others matters which in conversations will have to be discussed. We all have sympathised with and appreciated the position of Belgium in these international difficulties, and we have welcomed with the utmost heartiness the visit of His Majesty the King of the Belgians to these islands, and been impressed by the words that fell from him when he received the freedom of the City. Then there is another country, of which no mention I think was made in the debate yesterday, that is, Poland. I cannot help thinking that in any conversations that take place the position and future of Poland will be an important factor, because, after all, we have to remember that of the positive achievements of the peace made after the Great War the revival of Poland was in some ways the most interesting and by no means the least important.
Now I am not going to touch on the economic side of these international difficulties, supremely important though it is, and supremely important as is its bearing on our relations with the United States. But we all do realise that the economic side of this settlement may be the paramount factor in arriving at a settlement. It certainly is one of the most important. Let us not forget that there are some people who hold that the break-up of the Austrian Empire into its different racial elements and their attainment of liberty and of that somewhat over-rated capacity for self-determination, have been dearly bought by the destruction of the economic unity which the old Austrian Empire, with all its defects, at all events secured.
My noble friend Lord Samuel spoke yesterday with great force and, if he will allow me to say so, with conspicuous moderation, on the difficult subject of the old German Colonies. I do not propose to go into any sort of detail on that subject, though at one time, from the office I held, I had more knowledge of it, perhaps, than the average observer. But I am hound to say this—and in saving it I know I shall not get the agreement of
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some of your Lordships—that I do not feel at all sure that the application of the Mandate system to such units as the African Colonies has been in its results a happy one. The Mandate system, as applied to the countries of the old Turkish Empire, to Iraq, to Syria and, we have to admit, with all its troubles, to Palestine, was I think unquestionably the best way of dealing with those matters. But I do not feel quite so certain about the African Mandates, including those of the former German Colonies, because I feel that it is open to a German to say: "Well, this is all very well; you did not annex our Colonies; you rather boasted that you did not wish to add all these thousands of square miles to your territory; but, except for the fact, which in present circumstances is very little use to us, that they are to a certain extent free trade areas, what is the practical difference, so far as we are concerned, between their position as mandated Colonies and as they would have been if you had annexed them?" I do not know any very good answer to that complaint, if it should be made.
I know that some doubts have been expressed, not I think so much in the debate yesterday, as to the value and usefulness of these conversations between individuals, Prime Ministers, Foreign Secretaries and important members of different Governments, as compared on the one hand with the dealings through the old-diplomatic channels and on the other hand with the kind of public declarations which the noble Lord, Lord Allen, thinks might now be usefully made by His Majesty's Government:. I think there is this difficulty attaching to them, that conversations of that kind are liable to arouse some suspicion in the minds of other countries with whom we are, perhaps, on friendlier and more intimate terms than we are with those with whom the conversations are conducted; because, by the very nature of the case, a good deal that passes must be confidential and remain confidential, and that fact does, I think, cause a certain risk of arousing suspicion in the minds of others equally interested in the purposes for which these conversations are held. Therefore—at least, at any rate to some extent therefore—the noble Lord, Lord Allen, would like to have something said in a more public way.

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I felt that the objections which the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, made to any immediate or very early announcement of the kind were in themselves strong. One difficulty, I think, does exist in the fact that any public declaration, which, after all, need not be a declamation of the kind which the Prime Minister, I think, so rightly deprecated, might appear to be entering into a form of competition with those very loudspeaker declamations and declarations which are perpetually being made in some other countries in Europe. I see the force of that objection; but at the same time I think it cannot be disputed that there is an impression—not merely in this country, and not one which has been factiously raised for Party purposes in this country—that the policy of His Majesty's Government in foreign affairs has lacked clear definition and firm purpose. I am not going to attempt to argue how far that view is justified; but that it should exist at all I think is not only a misfortune but is to a certain extent an indictment of the methods which His Majesty's Government have felt themselves bound to pursue. Therefore I think it will be for them to consider how soon they will be able to draw some rather sharper and blacker line of general policy than that which they have been able to produce so far. We do not throw any sort of doubt on their loyalty to the ideals represented by the League of Nations, but the criticisms that are made are based on the possibility of their not having done all they might to set those ideals before the world and to do something to forward them.
I know that one of the charges brought against His Majesty's Government is that of undue complacence, less perhaps in foreign affairs than in relation to some of their domestic policies on which, I am bound to say, I think they have sometimes viewed the landscape through spectacles rather too bright and rose-coloured. But perhaps I might venture to say that a certain degree of complacency is almost a necessary vice of any Front Bench. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, says "Hear, hear," but I am bound to say that he and his friends cannot be altogether acquitted of what I might term a kind of hypothetical complacency which continues to represent that, if affairs had not gone wrong in 1931, the whole process of European disarmament
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might have been accelerated under their care and, I take it, the whole course of events would have been materially changed for the better.
At any rate I do not think we can look to anything like national complacency, still less international complacency. I do not think that the oldest amongst us can remember any period at which it has been so difficult to look forward to the future with any attempt at foretelling what the state of Europe and the world is likely to be in a few months or in a year's time. Formerly there were difficult questions ahead which it was known had to be met and which could be more or less considered beforehand with the hope of being able to solve them. Now it is indeed difficult, and any man would be rash who would attempt to forecast the future even within the short periods I have mentioned. At the same time I think that this debate in your Lordships' House will have been in a degree useful, because I think it will help to clear everybody's mind. It will, I am sure, do nothing whatever to hamper the efforts which His Majesty's Government are making, and which in particular Lord Halifax is making, to arrive at a better state of things. All I can say is that I am sure that every individual and every Party in your Lordships' House will do their best to assist His Majesty's Government in arriving at that general settlement of which Lord Allen speaks in his Resolution.
VISCOUNT SANKEY: My Lords, first of all I should like to thank the noble Lord who moved this Motion for giving your Lordships an opportunity of expressing your views upon this important subject. It has led to a useful debate which will serve a great public purpose. There can be very few occasions upon which a large body of men with wide experience in many different walks of life find themselves unanimously agreed upon one subject, and this afternoon is one of those occasions. We are all agreed upon one point. We all want peace. It is probable that in nearly every country an overwhelming majority of people also want peace. Why is it that we are not able to make certain of it? Who is it or what is it that makes men apprehensive of war? Nations are prepared to make great sacrifices for war; they are prepared to see the flower of their youth

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destroyed; they are prepared to see their women and children exposed to horrors never before dreamt of; they are prepared to see the curtailment and the postponement of some of their schemes for procuring a better standard of life for their people; and they are prepared to pile up a huge national debt for armaments which may hang like a millstone round their necks for generation after generation. These are some of the sacrifices that nations are prepared to make for war. What sacrifices are they prepared to make for peace? Are they prepared not even to contemplate any sacrifice? Someone may say: "But that is not the only question to be asked, and that is not the only answer to be considered." What risks is a nation prepared to incur for peace?
Let me endeavour first to give an answer to those two questions. Whether, unfortunately, we become involved in war or whether, fortunately, we can obtain a prolonged period of peace, whichever happens you will have to make sacrifices and you will have to incur risks. The sacrifices of war are well known; so, too, are the risks. The result of the struggle may be indecisive, and your sacrifices may have been made in vain. You are no better off. But the risks of peace are not so terrible as the risks of war. There is no such loss of life; there is no such loss of health; there is no such loss of treasure; although there may be some loss of possessions and some loss of prestige. The risk is that, even if you do make sacrifices, they will not be available for any length of time because they may only induce your opponent to ask for more. Now, in these circumstances, what can the individual citizen do? He can declare whether he is in favour of making some sacrifice, and whether he is prepared to run some risk. If his answer to both of those questions is "No," that is an end so far as he is concerned. But if the individual citizen is prepared to make some sacrifice, and if he is ready to incur some risk, he will be wiser to leave the amount of that sacrifice and the measure of that risk to those who are in a better position to form a judgment than he is, to those who know more of the facts, and who, by personal contact with his opponent, are able to judge the real attitude of that opponent towards peace, and to judge what are his powers for war.
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Now permit me to draw your Lordships' attention for a moment or two to one or two details. The main causes of war are greed and injustice. If there is injustice in a State and there is no remedy for it, there is always a danger of disturbance, even of a revolution. If a nation feels itself to be suffering an injustice, there is always a danger of war. If, as a result of a successful war, a State finds itself in a position to impose a peace, it is always placed in the most difficult of all situations. It becomes a judge in its own cause, and that at a moment when it is probably greatly incensed against its opponent. Time after time history has taught us the result of an imposed peace. It sows the seed of war; it often transfers peoples and lands without any feelings of justice or humanity. It is quite easy to be wise after the event and to blame those statesmen who are responsible for such treaties, and probably their critics would not have done any better had they been placed in the same situation; but, as time begins to remove and to soften asperities, we can see mistakes and begin to suggest remedies.
You cannot sentence a great nation to death, and you cannot sentence a great nation to penal servitude for life. You may impose harsh terms, but is your anger to burn for ever? Is there to be no time for a reconsideration? It is a mistake to single out any particular nation and to regard it as your potential enemy for the next ten years. No doubt, on the question of reconsideration there are great difficulties ahead. To begin with, you cannot create an independent tribunal for the purpose. It has to be done by agreement between nations, and there are many factors to be considered before you conclude such an agreement. First and foremost, there are the interests, the rights and safety of the people affected. You must be careful in remedying one injustice not to create another. Then you have to consider whether any form of joint effort is possible as a solution of the problem, and you have to take into account things other than mere money, other than mere material matters. There are such things as legitimate aspirations, legitimate national pride which we should like taken into consideration were we to find ourselves in a like plight. This is not the time to discuss these questions or what are their answers. Obviously they are very difficult and very delicate

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matters, and an ill-timed article or an ill-judged speech may do untold harm. But an individual citizen is entitled to urge upon his Government the necessity of making some sacrifices and incurring some risk in order to obtain peace.
Let me turn for a moment to that part of the Motion which seeks or presses for an "all-round settlement within the framework of the League of Nations and the Pact of Paris." We should, all of us, like to see an all-round settlement without, at the present moment, making any precise definition of its contents, but one cannot help feeling a little apprehensive in trying to do too much at first. There are many different questions to be considered; many different nations to be consulted. And what is meant by an all-round settlement? Is Great Britain alone to be called upon to make sacrifices and to incur risks? If we are called upon to make such sacrifices and to incur risks, other nations too should be similarly called upon. It is almost impossible here, as I have said, to discuss all the details, but we are not the only nation in possession of lands which belonged to others before the War. And if there is to be an all-round settlement, I venture to ask whether in the ultimate result the position of the German-speaking inhabitants of the Southern Tyrol is to be considered. But it may be better not to be too ambitious, not to try to do too much at first. The millennium is not going to come here to-morrow, although every day brings us nearer to it.
I cannot leave this part of the Motion without referring to one other matter. Anxious as we may all be for an all-round settlement, willing as we may be to make some sacrifice and to incur some risk, I hope that we shall never forget the difference between what is expedient and what is right and wrong. After all, nations are only aggregations of individuals, and just as individuals from time to time commit wrongdoings, so do nations. In municipal law you can restrain wrongdoing; in international law, at present, there is no such opportunity. But nations are not habitual criminals. It may well be doubtful whether any of the great nations are at present ready to submit their pride and power of place to any form of international discipline or to forgo any portion of their national sovereignty. Every effort should, however, be made to submit every dispute to
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judicial decision. However regrettable wrongdoing may be, it may be impossible in every case to put back the clock; but every citizen and every nation should endeavour to create a proper public opinion which will be the beginning of preventing wrongdoing in future. Meanwhile, if Great Britain is to champion the cause of the weak, if we are not to let people down after we have made promises to them, if we are to protect our women and children against horrors from the air, if we are to defend ourselves against the attacks of an aggressor, we must be strong. To be weak is to be miserable.
Now let me turn to that part of the Motion which refers to the League of Nations. The League owes its birth to a time when clear thinking was prevented through a sense of the horrors of the past and hopes of the future. It has not done all that it was expected to do, but it is idle to say that it has done nothing. It has brought people together; it has checked or has prevented the traffic in white slaves and the traffic in noxious drugs, and it has effected some settlements. Probably the real reason for its want of success, certainly for its present want of success, is that it tried to do too much at first, especially as one great nation refused to become a Member. This refusal of membership and the withdrawal of other nations from the League have reduced it to its present position of impotence. Any attempt to enforce a policy of sanctions was foredoomed to failure; you might as well have expected a sieve to hold water. Over and above that, although this may not have been intended by its original framers, a careful perusal of the articles of the Covenant might have led a person to the opinion that the object of the League was to maintain the status quo.
But to say that the League has not fulfilled expectations is not to say that it must be scrapped, is not to say that it cannot be reformed, although it is clear that some of the articles cannot be carried out. Men are divided into two great classes: there are those who are striving for the ideally perfect and are looking to to-morrow, and there are those who are content to work for what is practically possible and are looking to to-day. We should all desire to belong to the first class, to wish it success, and to have the ideally perfect as the goal which we desired to reach. What is the important

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thing for the League to-day? Which would you rather: would you rather have the United States of America and Germany in the League, or would you rather have Article 16, on sanctions, in the Covenant? You cannot have both. The day may come—many of us hope the day will come—when sanctions will be possible, but at the present moment it may be better to have the United States in the League and to have Article 16 out of the Covenant. That is not to say that we do not hope for the ultimate inclusion of Article 16. The League of Nations is not dead; it will live to do all that it was originally intended to do.
But, my Lords, to conclude: The times are critical, and it is the duty of every citizen to give thought to these subjects and to state his opinions upon them. If there is anything helpful in his opinions, so much the better, and he should not be discouraged if subsequent criticism shows the impracticability of his suggestions. I have put mine before your Lordships' House. I recognise that on either side of this House there are members with traditional policies and, if I may use that adjective, with tiresome supporters to satisfy. A political exile is, however, entitled to have ambitions and my ambition is that Great Britain shall lead the way to peace and shall show' by her example that she is ready to make some sacrifice and to incur some risk in order to obtain it. Are your Lordships willing to do so?
LORD STONEHAVEN: My Lords, the events that have occurred since the noble Lord put his Motion on the Paper have, as he at once warned us, altered a great deal the tone of the debate and necessarily involved a great deal of reticence. If the noble Lord will allow me to say so, he showed us a very good example in his speech. I hope I may be forgiven if I refer to an exception in that respect, and I want to do so quite briefly. I refer to the speech of my noble friend Lord Glasgow, and to a certain extent to the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. They both dealt with the question of the German Colonies, and they submitted, as, of course, they were entitled to do, a particular point of view. There is an exactly opposite point of view about which I propose to say nothing, not because I do not feel strongly on the subject but because I
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think that when Lord Halifax is in Berlin, trying to establish a satisfactory atmosphere for future negotiations, the less said about anything which may form the subject of discussion between us and Germany the better. But I do refer to it quite briefly because, if no reference is made to the other side of the question, there will be misunderstandings, not only here but abroad, and particularly in Africa. I hope and believe, however, that reticence on this point is not only justifiable but imperative at the present time, and to observe it is one of the few things which we unofficial members of the House can do to help Lord Halifax in his vitally important mission.
Turning to the subject of the Resolution, which is one of finding some means of promoting appeasement, that subject must, of course, at all times, have the support of all right-thinking people. Whether the scheme evolved in such an attractive manner by the noble Lord, which is obviously one to which he has given much thought, is a practicability now is a subject about which there may be some doubt. As to the declaration which he asked for, I was not surprised, and indeed very glad, that my noble friend below me, in replying for the Government, could not see his way to add anything to what had recently been said, after the Resolution was put down on the Paper, on two occasions by the Prime Minister, at the Guildhall and in Edinburgh: and on another occasion by the Secretary of State in the House of Commons. I was glad that the Under-Secretary adopted the attitude of leaving well alone. I think that those statements, clear and concise, and quite unmistakable, do represent the attitude of Great Britain at the present time towards foreign affairs, and it is an advantage all round that they should be clearly understood; but that does not carry us beyond a very limited time, and obviously means must be found for improving the international situation.
I was glad that my noble friend Lord Rennell suggested and very pointedly supported the idea of employing more extensively our diplomatic representatives in foreign capitals. It is their job, after all, and one for which they are paid. Moreover, they know their job, and for many years they kept us out of war. But there is, of course, the League of Nations, about which so

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many people are very enthusiastic. I frankly admit, because I am a diplomatist, possibly, that I have doubted from the start the possibility of carrying on international affairs by a system of mass meetings, attended by politicians who address each other in languages which they do not understand. That, however, is the ideology which we have evolved, in the hope that it would solve the difficulties of a world completely upset by the War, and we ourselves and the United States must accept responsibility for the parentage of the child. Unfortunately, the United States deserted it at birth, and in the colloquial phrase left us the baby to carry. It has never been a very thriving infant, but, like all parents, we have been reluctant to admit any imperfections in it, and we have supported it and praised it as parents do.
The noble Lord, Lord Snell, suggested yesterday, not for the first time, nor was he the first member among those with whom he sits to take the line, that the League would have worked all right if we had given it a lead. There I must take issue with him. We gave it a lead until we brought ourselves to the point of risk. We were told so by the Prime Minister. The remarkable thing is, is it not, that so keen was this country as a whole to give a lead to the utmost possible extent that an admission which in other circumstances would have been astounding, coming from the Foreign Secretary, was accepted as natural and indeed with approval. At the same time it must be added that, having discovered what a dangerous position we had got into, the country gladly and enthusiastically, without one murmur of dissent, shouldered an unparallelled financial and industrial responsibility for putting our forces into a position adequate for the defence of our interests.
As one noble Lord said, there was nothing in his experience which had had such a reassuring effect in many parts of Europe. We have to recognise that after all the world has not changed, as many people suggest it has, and the old argument—I do not want to press this too much, but only to mention it—used by Lord Nelson in 1801, that a fleet of British battleships made the best negotiators in Europe, still holds good. At the same time we do not admit that we are going to give up the idea of creating machinery for solving disputes without going to war.
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That would indeed be the bankruptcy of statesmanship, and involve an admission which none of us is prepared to make. But the only machinery apart from diplomacy and armed forces existing in the world to-day is the League of Nations, and I suggest that it is necessary to overhaul that institution in the light of the conditions in which we find ourselves. Your Lordships will remember an admirable phrase used by Mr. Eden in one of his speeches recently, in which he said that we must not make the mistake of believing that what we want to exist irk the world does exist simply because we want it. Yet are not many people tempted to believe that the League of Nations is really what it was intended to be?
The noble Lord yesterday, in analysing the situation in Europe, as he did in a most interesting manner, did not, I feel, give quite enough emphasis to the part played by dictatorships. One of the reasons why the League does not function at the present time surely is that it was based on the idea that sovereign countries would be prepared to sacrifice a part of their sovereignty in deference to decisions reached by representatives of all the countries of the world after discussion, such decisions being presumably considered by the world as a whole as more in the interests of mankind than the decisions of the individual countries themselves. I hope I have put it clearly, but that is my reading of the basis of the League of Nations—that it involves a curtailment of the rights of sovereignty which we enjoy and have enjoyed and claimed through all time.
That is the very antithesis of the idea that lies at the bottom of the dictatorships at the present time, Pan-Germanism is avowedly the policy of Herr Hitler, the expansion of Italy is the policy of Signor Mussolini. The League of Nations obviously cannot succeed in Europe if Germany and Italy are absent from it. It may go on for a time, but infallibly it will break down, and it cannot succeed outside Europe, I venture to suggest, without the co-operation of the United States and Japan. Well, to get the United States in, to judge from my experience in the United States, seems to me to be absolutely beyond the bounds of possibility. Other noble Lords, I know, are more optimistic, but that was the conclusion I came to, and I find it very difficult to discover anyone who has

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had any long experience in the United States who thinks otherwise. But supposing the League were re-formed in such a way as to deal with European matters. That in itself would be a great advantage. Europe is the centre of our interests, and it is because I think there may be some hope of re-forming the League for that purpose that it is well worth while giving very thorough consideration to the matter.
But to return to the subject of dictatorships. I think the noble Lord suggested that the Government studies them in histories and studies them in books and so forth. I suggest that the place to study the new régime in Italy is Italy, and the place to study the new régime in Germany is Germany, and that you will find there such a transformation in the people in general that you will understand the amazing authority exercised in those two countries by the men who have raised themselves from the humblest possible beginnings and who now exercise an unparalleled authority in those countries. You have to remember that both Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini took charge when their countries were on the verge of chaos, almost overwhelmed by Bolshevism. They have restored self-respect to the citizens; they have restored order and quite a big degree of prosperity; and they have certainly restored confidence in the individual and confidence in the nation. I do not think it is surprising, when you see their work and read their writings, that those men should have obtained the influence that they have. Their system would not suit us for an hour—I do not suggest that for a moment—but that is not our affair, and I do not see that it matters in the least so far as we are concerned. But at the root of the whole of their work is the fact that they are great and courageous patriots, and they have stimulated the idea of patriotism in their two countries, which makes them formidable people to deal with.
There is, however, no reason why, because people are strong, we should not be friends with them, or why we should not get on perfectly well with them. But of this I am certain, that in a world which devotes so much of its resources to the strengthening of its armed forces you will get nothing unless you are strong too. With that I think the noble Lord agrees. We are taking adequate
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and proper measures to strengthen our forces, and in conjunction with steps which eventually will be taken doubtless to improve the basis of the League of Nations and encourage other countries to enter it, we may do something in addition to what diplomacy will do. But I refuse absolutely to adopt the attitude that unless something of that sort happens we are bound to have war. Is it not a mistake to suggest that the League of Nations is the one thing that stands between us and war? If I thought that, then indeed I think there would be ground for despondency. The League of Nations has neither prevented nor stopped a war of any dimensions since it came into existence. It did stop one war, I believe, where both protagonists were extremely thankful to be prevented from fighting. They were neither of them at all keen to fight.
When you get people who really mean to achieve by armed force the object that they have in view, then the League of Nations in quite futile, and may be dangerous. I think that the noble and learned Viscount who preceded me was right in suggesting that the first thing to do is to eliminate Article 16 from the Covenant. Having done that, and having started on a more modest basis, you should establish an instrument—I would not go so far as the noble Viscount went and say an instrument for judicial action, because I do not think that judicial decisions are of any value unless there is a police force behind them to enforce those decisions, and I see no prospect whatever of the development of the International Police Force about which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is so enthusiastic. But there may be an advantage—it is worth trying at any rate—if you can get an establishment where people will meet and discuss and exchange ideas purely from the point of view of conciliation, not from the point of view of coercion, and not endeavouring to exercise any element of coercion. There I do think that a contribution may be made. But I believe it involves, in the first place, accepting the fact that the present basis of the League of Nations is wrong, that you cannot patch it up unless you are prepared to reconstruct it from the bottom, and that if you do reconstruct it you may arrive at something which may not be the dominant feature but may be of great assistance to the diplomats of

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the various countries in maintaining good relations.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, I welcome the Motion of my noble friend Lord Allen of Hurtwood, most particularly in that part of it in which he calls attention to the grievances, as he says, "from which certain nations claim to be suffering." I agree warmly with him that involved in this is the whole question of a general settlement, and it would be relevant to his Motion to discuss the question of the revision of the Covenant and the machinery for the removal of grievances; but I want to say a word in particular on one or two of the grievances which affect Germany, a subject which has been almost exclusively under our review in these two days of debate. When we think of these grievances we welcome all the more warmly the fact that the noble Viscount, Lord Halifax, has gone to Berlin. Those of us who have been there in recent times, as I have been, must have had our attention very acutely called to the deterioration that has taken place in the feeling towards this country which prevails in Germany. It has been suggested that it is not fitting that we should discuss today the subjects which may possibly be under discussion at Berlin, but I propose to follow the example of those many speakers who have preceded me, who have felt that it is more than fitting that we should do so. We may suppose that, if His Majesty's Government had been in any way desirous that there should not be discussion of these matters, it would have been very easy to get this debate postponed.
I think we ought to bear in mind that the situation is not so happy in Germany in regard to relations with this country as it was a year or two ago. Public feeling has been worked up to a rather heated point, and we must realise that an unfortunate incident might possibly make it very difficult for the German Government to appear to accept any sort of humiliating drawback. It is true that in one vital respect the situation is far happier than in former days before the War. There is no war party now, as there was thirty years ago. But one must say that if, by some horrible course of events, war should come, public feeling in Germany is now in a state which could be relied on by a Government immediately to give eager support. It is not always
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easy to understand German reasoning, but I think the feeling about England at bottom represents disappointed hopes of a friendship which the public were led to think might be an exclusive friendship, a friendship which, therefore, we cannot provide. But other grounds are of a more rational character, and it is very interesting to study the effect on German feeling of certain incidents which to us seem to afford no ground for complaint.
I found that the questionnaire, as it is called, the Foreign Secretary's Despatch involving certain inquiries as to the German disposition in the spring of last year, seemed to German ideas to partake of the nature of a lecture; and the fact that it was published looked rather as if the intention was to pillory the German Government in a rather marked degree. Then the incident of the "Deutschland" made a great and an unfortunate impression, until some words of the Prime Minister, a considerable time afterwards, corrected the situation very materially and satisfactorily. When there was a heavy death roll of German sailors and not an appearance of much feeling on the subject in this country, it left a mark which you find has remained, which probably we should not have noticed unless we had large numbers of friends on the other side.
But I think that the chief ground which has damaged feeling towards this country is in connection with the Colonial question. There cannot be any doubt that the interest in that has caught on with the public. Whatever may have been the motive of those in authority in allowing it to become part of a kind of campaign, there is a very strong and widespread feeling upon the subject. It is based on the idea of two special grievances. The first is that confiscation of the Colonies was based on the stigma involved in the statement of the Allies of German unfitness to govern the natives. The spirit of that statement in all our minds has been withdrawn. I do not know that we can say that we really differ from the German view. We all of us wish that that statement had not been communicated to the German Government. The statement itself is contradicted by the opinion of Colonial experts A day or two ago Sir Edward Grigg, who was Governor of Kenya, close to Tanganyika, made a speech in which he said that "the im-

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putation of unfitness to govern Colonial territories had never been justified and ought to be removed." The other ground which I was surprised to find prevail so much is the ground that confiscation was a breach of the promise contained in the Fourteen Points, on the faith of which the German arms were laid down. The fifth point, it is true, is flatly contrary to a policy of deprivation of the Colonies, and the German view, again we must admit, is hardly different from our own.
But moral feelings were not very prominent at Versailles; indeed, it is rather interesting to recall what Lord Grey said at the time that the Colonies had just been taken. As your Lordships remember, very early in the proceedings of the Versailles Conference the Colonies had been confiscated, and Lord Grey wrote a letter saying, in regard to Versailles: "I am glad I am not there. They are out for loot." Lord Grey was the last man, as we all know, to exaggerate. I find it difficult to escape the conclusion that we ought to act upon this opinion of ours that what is called in Germany "the Colonial lie" was not a proper ground for action. I do not know how to escape the conclusion that we ought to adhere to the undertakings on which we induced the Germans to lay down their arms. We ought not to act contrary to point five of the Fourteen Points.
Of course, one does also hear the argument to which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, referred, the economic argument; but not so much; and I never heard the argument seriously advanced that tropical Colonies would provide a field for surplus population. It is true that Dr. Schact has a very large public which regards him as an economic authority, and he holds that the fact of a common currency with a Colony would be of very great assistance to German development and to German trade. Undoubtedly it would be the case that exploitation would be much more intensive than it has been since the War or than it was when the Colonies were held by Germany in the past. It is of course a fact that Germany, having very large investments abroad at that time and doing a very large trade with the rest of the world, was not so concerned to develop the Colonies as she would be if she had them now. The kind of argument follows this line—this is by
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way of illustration—Germany is badly in want of vegetable oils; a considerable amount of German land is now employed in growing crops for the purpose of producing vegetable oils; and it is a very natural grievance that land which might be producing food, which is exceedingly short in Germany, has now to be cultivated for growing vegetable oils. It is very easy for us to retort, what is quite true, that the economic advantage of getting back Colonies in Africa is nothing like so great as some claim it to be.
It is very common to point out that the German claim is really based on sentiment. It is a desire for prestige or the restoration of self-esteem, for the removal of some of the sense of isolation in the world. Of course it is based on the desire for prestige. The Germans would be less than human if they were not subject to that feeling. There is nothing new or artificial in their interest in Colonies. Many of us remember the hunger for Colonies before the War. Since Bismarck's day it was very prominent. Before the War what they possessed was not a great Empire, but it was adequate to give a certain sense of being a world Power, and the sense that they are forbidden to be of any more importance in the world in that way than Poland naturally rankles. We of all the peoples of the world should understand better than any others the instinct that prompts them in that way.
What is to be our answer to this claim? It is, of course, involved with many other questions. The recent correspondence in The Times has perhaps helped to formulate British opinion as it has not been formulated before. It is a great pity that consideration had not been given to it sooner, because action would have been much easier years ago. We still have among us those whose main principle is "What we have we hold," and they, I suppose, will never be convinced by other arguments. It is they who landed us in Versailles and the difficulties which have followed from it, and the crisis, because it is a kind of crisis, which prevails to-day. But I think the more serious opposition to restoring to Germany any Colonial sphere is among those who think that, while deprivation at that time was certainly wrong, it is too late now to reverse it. They might recall the saying of the famous Ambassador, M. Cambon, who,

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during the Versailles Conference, knowing the dispositions that were to be taken, said that the settlement was an improvisation, and it was not what appeared to him to be capable of permanence.
That school, which is a serious school of thought, feel in the main that the Nazi régime makes the difference, that racial ideas would vitiate the government of natives, and it is very fitting that in this country that should be a prominent, perhaps the prime consideration. I feel that myself. It is natural to fear that a régime responsible for some of the deplorable features that have been mentioned in this debate should be applied in the government of any additional area, but the question of the government of natives is an entirely different one from that of the treatment of the Jew or other features that we profoundly deplore in the internal government in Germany. The racial theory applied to African natives would result in a policy aimed at preventing a population of half-castes. The feeling towards natives would have no resemblance to the feeling towards those who are persecuted in Germany to-day. I suppose our own ideal in regard to half-castes is not unsympathetic to that ideal. The German Government before the War in Africa was praised by many great experts, and it is a most interesting question, how would it, if it came to pass again in these days, differ from its predecessors. The main difference, I take it, would be that the officials would be Nazis, and that the industrial development would be pushed very hard. But, in theory, so it is by ourselves.
Several speakers in this debate have made reference to features of German administration which are severely criticised in this country, and it is true that they are widely deplored. It is true that English friendship and desire for good relations with Germany would be much stronger if that criticism could be removed. But it is not relevant to the question of the government of natives. Moreover, I feel it is to be hoped that native interests will receive consideration and help from a system of mandation. In spite of what the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, has said, I cannot help thinking that mandation is an extremely valuable guarantee of access to trade for the world in general. It has some
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reference to the right of all States to trade with the Tropics. It is an extension of the system of the Congo Convention, which emanated from Germany itself in 1885, which is both a guarantee of world commercial interests and also to a very considerable extent of the welfare of natives and their freedom from exploitation for military purposes. But you must expect in the German mind great opposition to the idea of association with the League which would be afforded by mandation. I think it is difficult to realise, without being some time among Germans, how the League stinks in the nostrils of the German public. That is a most deplorable thing, but I think it is inevitable when for a moment we look from the German point of view and realise that to them the League is part of the Versailles settlement. It is associated in their minds with a policy of subordination. The reason for that is a very unfortunate one. It is that the League has failed to carry out what it intended to do in matters which affect Germany—for instance, in regard to the Minority Treaties. The Czechoslovakian question is a question of the fulfilment of a Minority Treaty. Again, they associate the League with the prevention of the tariff agreement with Austria in 1931.
Then we find, of course, in this country widely held objections on strategic grounds to the return of Tanganyika. I would only say that it is a mistake to suppose that there is not a great deal of discussion and realisation of the British point of view on that matter. To feel that the policy of restoration is necessarily associated with strategic changes in the Indian Ocean is to mistake the German attitude. The principle of restoration is, of course, insisted on, and it is only possible from the German side to ask for a return of Colonies, but subsequent to that the idea of adjustment is freely discussed. They understand very well the difficulty about Tanganyika, and I think their minds are looking very much more to West Africa. This is not the time to go into details, but on the subject of an equivalent for Tanganyika that might be found in West Africa I might remind your Lordships of a very interesting letter from Sir Claud Russell, formerly our Ambassador in Portugal, published in The Times not very long ago, suggesting the kind of principles on which adjustment might be made.

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We are very often told that Germany would never be satisfied, that war is inevitable in any case, and therefore concession is useless. Well, it is happy that a different view was taken in the last century at the Congress of Vienna, when the French Colonies were mostly restored to France. The subsequent one hundred years were comparatively free from war. Your Lordships will remember that Castlereagh said that the allies were not in Vienna to collect trophies, but to provide for a peaceful future. The other day I came across a letter of the Duke of Wellington published in one of the volumes of his letters, which perhaps your Lordships may not have read, but which is very interesting. He said:
"If we ask France to make this great cession, we must consider the operations of war as deferred till France shall find a suitable opportunity of endeavouring to regain what she has lost; and after having wasted our resources in the maintenance of overgrown military establishments in time of peace, we shall find how little useful the cessions we have acquired will be against a national effort to regain them. We ought to continue to keep our great object, the genuine peace and tranquillity of the world, in our view, and shape our arrangements so as to provide for it."
Wellington would not have tolerated the amazing shortsightedness that possessed some people at Versailles, and that shortsightedness has now to be undone.
If your Lordships will allow me I should like to say a word or two on one other question—that of the grievances connected with the Germans in Czechoslovakia. I have been staying in the German parts of that country, near the German frontier. The situation there, as we all know, is unstable. The Henlein Party has grown with extreme rapidity, and for two reasons. In the first place there is exasperation at the discrimination still displayed in the Czech administration. We must give to the Czechs credit for having applied the Minority Treaties better than certain other States, but minority rights as laid down in the Treaties are not granted. Even the strongest anti-Germans criticise the failure to apply fully the principle of non-discrimination. Another reason why the dissident Party of M. Henlein has grown to such an extent is the rise of nationalistic feeling, the increasing sense of German unity. Before the War, and for some
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years afterwards, you had the old loyalty to the Austrian Empire, making the Germans in Czechoslovakia feel that they were not one with the Germans of Germany, but the young generation cannot be expected to be governed by that feeling, and that again contributes to the desire for unity.
You cannot blame the Czechs for enjoying their novel powers of dominating those who lately dominated them in a narrow spirit. That is inevitable, but it is a danger, because it is close to the German frontier. I have no doubt President Bones regrets the non-fulfilment of equality, and the Government excuse themselves frankly on the difficulty of controlling the Czech bureaucracy as they would like to do. It is true that there has been some improvement but nothing corresponding to the agreement, from which so much was hoped, of last February. If there has been improvement it is attributed by good observers to the fact that the Czech Government is not quite so confident of the security that formerly was associated with the collective system of the League, that less reliance is placed on protection from outside, and therefore there has been a rather more conciliatory spirit. But the Germans in Czechoslovakia are looking more and more to Germany. If grievances remain unredressed year after year—for nineteen years now—you cannot expect people of spirit to wait for ever. I am sure it is to be hoped that the influence of this country, always very great with small States in the east of Europe, will be applied to the utmost towards securing the fulfilment of the provisions of the Minority Treaties.
It may be that that would prove a solution of the trouble; but suppose some unhappy incident led to a German demand for more than that, perhaps not for any change of frontier or for any form of self-government, but in favour of the rights which, for instance, are accorded by the Constitution of Switzerland. To resist that would be to resist the principle of self-determination. Self-determination was the aim proclaimed by the Allies in the War, and it is very material to us to consider what would be our position if such a crisis came. British opinion could not possibly support resistance to rights claimed under the Minority Treaty which was imposed by the Allies themselves. His

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Majesty's Government must surely be alive to the dangers involved in these possibilities and, I hope, active in pressing their views on the questions concerned.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I desire to detain your Lordships for a very few moments only, although at the same time I should like to express regret at the practice, which seems to be increasing, by which anybody who speaks after six o'clock must cut down his remarks. We do not spend very much time in this House, and when a great many members try to prepare sufficiently to make a decent speech in this House, it is rather unfortunate that this new practice should be applied. I want to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Allen, on his speech yesterday. It has not only caused a very useful debate, but, if I may say so, it was a masterly speech. I did not agree with a great deal of it, but this House paid the noble Lord a high and unusual tribute: I noticed that during the whole time he was speaking there were no closed eyes at all! I agree with the noble Lord that we want to get down to fundamentals, but I am doubtful—as doubtful as other noble Lords have been, especially the noble Marquess on the Liberal Benches—about pronouncements. One of the curses of the machine age to-day is the loudspeaker, the amplifier and the megaphone, because they make people think that if you talk loud enough you can be more persuasive. They desecrate speeches and make sermons sound like street cries. This method of pronouncments shouted across Europe is not the right one, and I heartily support the noble Lords, Lord Stonehaven and Lord Rennell, in urging that the Diplomatic Service should be used more than it is and that diplomats should not be relegated to the position of office-keepers.
During the last period which has elapsed I consider that the Government's handling of the diplomatic situation has been satisfactory. I have no fault whatever to find with any pronouncement on foreign affairs made so far by the Prime Minister. I regard Mr. Eden's work in the most difficult situation as having been performed with great courage and great skill. I should like to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, on his handling of the Non-Intervention Committee.
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The Government knew, and we all knew, that it would not stop intervention, but we hoped that if it were proceeded with, it might stop a European war. So far it has, and the noble Earl has never been completely dismayed and has never completely thrown up the sponge. Lastly, I should like to say that nobody could be found in this country who inspires greater public confidence than the noble Viscount, Lord Halifax, who is undertaking this exploratory expedition to Berlin. While I say all that, I have a cause of dispute, and a very grave one, with His Majesty's Government which I will come to before I sit down.
I was very glad to hear the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, refer to the King of the Belgians. He only referred to the remarks that the King made last night at Guildhall, but I should like to refer to the very remarkable pronouncement he made in July this year. It was a suggestion very much on the lines that Lord Allen desires, but it had certain features which I thought were original and promising. He did not want a conference of representatives of the Powers, possibly to wrangle together round a table, but he asked for an exploratory commission to be set up, not necessarily of national representatives but of people who have devoted their lives to the various sides of the difficult questions which arise to-day. That is the only question I want to ask the noble Viscount who will be replying: how was that received? There was not a word. One finds sometimes that a very wise suggestion is allowed to drop and nothing is said about it, whereas foolish suggestions are easily taken up in order to knock them down. I feel that in the King of the Belgians we have a statesman who is watching the state of affairs very closely and has initiated and made a proposal which ought to be followed up.
One of the points on which I disagree with Lord Allen and which I wish I could persuade him to drop is this idea of collective security. If we go on with collective security it will be impossible to get Germany to come and talk amicably. I was very sorry to hear the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, say yesterday—I think it was in trying to emphasise the fact that the Government did pay some regard to the League of Nations and did not intend to cold-shoulder it—that the Government based their policy on all the obligations under the Covenant. I do not think that

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the Government believe in collective security. The attempts at it in the Italo-Abyssinian war showed not so much that you could not prevent the Italians—that was unfortunate—but that you allowed the Abyssinians to suppose that you were going to help them. That is what is still happening to-day, so long as Article 16 remains in the Covenant. In fact, I have heard representatives of some of the smaller nations say that they like Great Britain being rearmed because they consider that British arms are going to help them if their crisis comes. I think that is a most unfortunate idea to gain currency. Although I should like the Government to go to Geneva and initiate an amendment of the Covenant in this degree, there again I am quite ready for them not to say so. I am quite ready for them gradually to show the League that force is not the proper basis on which they can build a peaceful world.
The noble Lord, Lord Rushcliffe, yesterday—in a most excellent maiden speech, if he will allow me to say so—told us how people sitting round a table who seemed hopelessly antagonistic could nevertheless be brought together. I think, if I may say so, that Lord Rushcliffe, although I have heard him speak very often before, seemed a little uneasy while speaking—I think because he was always expecting interruptions, and they do not come in your Lordships' House. But what I would like Lord Allen to visualise is this. In every quarrel people take sides. You cannot get rid of that. In a quarrel between individuals sides are taken. A man will be supported first of all because his supporters really consider that on the facts he is right. Then there are those who support him because he is an old friend, and whether he is right or wrong they are going to stand by him. Then there is the less noble reason of the third class, who are looking to the future, to their own interests, and do not want to make an enemy of him because he is powerful. That really applies to nations just as much as to individuals. You are not going to get a state of unanimity which will make either economic or military sanctions effective, and it is far better to say so.
I sympathise with the Government. I sympathise with the difficult task which they have got to perform. Dictators are
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difficult because the more they become aware of internal discontent behind them the more inclined they are to display a certain truculence in their foreign relations, and that makes negotiations difficult. I see no reason whatever for armed conflict on any of the outstanding questions of to-day. Where there is good will I think they may be solved. There is, however, great danger, undoubted danger. This is where I differ from all the former speakers, and where I want not to make an appeal, which would be useless, but to explain to the Government what I mean. It has been taken for granted, in speech after speech, that we are strong because we are rearmed; that rearmament makes us a peaceful element in the world. It does not do anything of the kind. It has led to further competition in armaments. Armaments are being built up, and, as Lord Grey and other statesmen said in the last War, armaments are one of the initial causes of war. I value the democracy which has been built up in this country in the course of centuries, and you are not going to keep your democracy side by side with gigantic military forces. Every soldier, every airman, and every sailor enlisted to swell the numbers beyond the ordinary is a definite detrimental factor, and an enemy, to democracy. You cannot have the two together, and if we are going on with this piling up of armaments I feel that that is the real danger of war.
Air-raid precautions making the whole population believe that there is imminent danger of air raids in this country, and that they have got to hurry up with it and pay money down for it: what is the effect of that? A sort of feeling of scare is growing up in the country: The Government say this, and it must be really an imminent danger! It is that sort of thing that leads to warfare, and if it does come, with all the terrible, tragic characteristics of this new sort of warfare, what are your bomb-proof shelters, your gas masks, and all your air-raid precautions, going to do against panic, leading to revolution and riot? That is going to be the first thing that you will have to deal with, and there is no precaution against that. I cannot understand why the Government, who have shown such skill in the diplomatic sphere, do not see that they are simply taking a leaf out of the book of those whom they point to as enemies—dictators and others—at a time

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when, if they gave a lead to the world in the opposite direction, there would be some security for this country in being the first to lead the world into a really peaceful channel.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, in all quarters of the House in this debate, the first opportunity that has come to us in this House, tributes, eloquent and sincere, have been paid to Mr. Ramsay MacDonald. Any one who knew him or served with him must have been struck by two characteristics—his courage in good times or bad and his spirit of service; and I think it is not inappropriate that those tributes should be paid in a debate on foreign affairs. If I may say so I do so entirely agree with what Lord Crewe said, with particular insight, as regards his understanding of foreigners—the almost unexpected Understanding that one found in him. I think that was because he had the capacity to such a high degree of seeing the other man's point of view—a very valuable gift when dealing with foreign people or your own people. Lord Allen, in a speech the whole of which held the House, spoke, as he could well speak from his old friendship, of the relationships of Mr. MacDonald in his family. I am sure one of the greatest consolations to Mr. MacDonald in his failing health—health which had failed in the service of the State—was to watch the progress of his son, and I think we, too, are fortunate that there remains in the service of this country a son of Mr. MacDonald who has won and who holds a great position entirely on his own personal merits.
The Motion before us contains several parts. The first part of it, with which I need deal only in a sentence, commends the determination of the Government to see that this country is strong. The rearmament programme which the Government are necessarily pursuing they are, I think, pursuing with universal consent, because everybody in this country and outside it knows that it is pursued with only one purpose—namely, that the country may be strong for peace. Although the debate was, I think, on the whole singularly free from criticism, and Lord Ponsonby spoke indeed most generously at the end, one or two speakers have charged us, as we are almost always charged in debates on Foreign Affairs, either with having done
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things that we ought not to have done, which is possibly true, or with having left undone things which we ought to have done. The second charge is very often brought against Governments in regard to foreign affairs, but I think not enough allowance is made for the very simple and obvious fact that, while in your own country you can control—almost wholly control—the course of action, in foreign affairs you can only succeed in your purpose in so far as you can persuade other people to go with you. You cannot force them into action.
Examples were cited with regard to the League of Nations, where in amendment of the Covenant or in action taken at the League it is quite impossible for one country to make sure that action is taken unless the other countries will go with it. The League after all is not an idol or an ideal, it is an instrument, and its strength must depend on the number of countries who are Members of the League and on their unanimity in action when they are there. We all desire that the League should be strong, but I think I shall carry most of the House, and certainly my noble friend Lord Ponsonby, with me when I say that the worst way to make the League stronger is to press for it to undertake tasks beyond its capacity, or tasks which the whole of the Members who are there will not undertake thoroughly and with good will. If you attempt that it means that you reduce the prestige and the power of the League, that you reduce its numbers, and that you make it impossible for the League to be what it must be if it is to have a real power, and that power can only come gradually—a League which will again embrace in its membership, or embrace indeed for the first time in its membership, all the great countries of the world.
My noble friend Lord Ponsonby also referred to a speech of great interest made by the King of the Belgians, whom we are all so proud to be welcoming in England to-day. If I may say so, the King of the Belgians—and I have heard and read speeches made by him on many subjects—never makes a speech which is not well worth attention. We certainly have not lost sight of the proposals which were made last July. They have a close connection with the purposes of M. van Zeeland's journeys and his review, but we have not in fact received M. van Zeeland's Report.

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The main purpose of the Motion on the Paper is to ask for a comprehensive statement of policy and procedure which may tend to secure an all-round settlement. That request may mean one of two things. It may mean that you want the Government to state what are in their opinion the terms on which a lasting world settlement could be reached, and indeed even those speakers who rather disclaimed that as being their intention, when they began to speak at any length were very soon led into enunciating this or that condition which they thought ought to find, or must find, a place in such a settlement. I am sure we should not at all serve the cause which we all have at heart of procuring such a settlement if the Government attempted at this moment to make a statement of what they thought ought to be the terms in such a settlement. To start with, as I have said, if you are to succeed in the field of foreign affairs, you have to carry other nations with you. It is not we alone who can say what should be the terms of such a settlement. But if we attempted to do so, surely we should be suspected and accused of dictating to other people—a process which no country likes, and which we do not like ourselves. There is warrant that it is both wise and right at times to keep silence from good words.
LORD ALLEN OF HURTWOOD: I am exceedingly sorry to interrupt, but the wording of the Motion was drafted with the greatest possible care, and there is no suggestion whatever in it asking the Government to state in advance the terms of its final settlement. If the noble Viscount will do me the honour to read the Motion with care, he will see that that is so.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I have read the Motion, of course, with the greatest possible care, and moreover I listened to the speech of the noble Lord with great care and with great interest. I think that anybody who heard that speech would observe that he proceeded to pronounce a category of subjects which must come into such a settlement, and it is exactly that which I suggest is so dangerous. I hope before I have concluded I shall find that the noble Lord is at one with me. Certainly there have been many speakers in this debate who have told us what
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should or should not be in such a statement, and I would add this. Is it not extremely unwise to state a number of specific terms which you think should find a place in a settlement? Our own views of course we must have. Surely one of the dangers in statements of that kind in foreign affairs is that you find before you have gone into negotiation that you have made statements, almost laid down conditions, to which in the event you find it is either wrong or inexpedient to adhere. But the very fact that you have stated them as the sort of conditions which you think should be found in a settlement—and which receive the great publicity which unfortunately every statement does receive to-day—makes it the more difficult to recede from them. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, who said that the time for the enunciation of terms is the time when you have agreed, and the method to secure such agreement, I think, is frank and quiet discussion.
The noble Lord, Lord Rushcliffe, in a maiden speech which showed mature wisdom, spoke of negotiations where the subject appeared difficult and intractable, and where by careful approach, by quiet discussion, it was often found possible to arrive at complete agreement, provided that the will to agreement was there. The will to agreement is present not only in this country, but I venture to believe it is present in other countries too. After all, what we want to do to-day is to remove suspicions. We shall make little or no progress unless, when we do enter upon negotiations, we enter upon them in the spirit that we shall be met as frankly and as sincerely in those negotiations as we enter upon them ourselves. But I would make an appeal which it is little necessary, if necessary at all, to make to your Lordships, but which I think it is necessary to make to those outside, and that is that, if we are most likely to reach agreement, to reach lasting settlements, by quiet discussion, whether by statesmen or by diplomatists, everybody should make it as easy as possible for us to get that kind of quiet discussion. Many members of your Lordships' House have engaged in important business negotiations where you had to meet people who were competitors with opposing interests. As the result of discussion, not only is accommodation reached but what proves to be fruitful association. But no business

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man would ever have brought off a deal of that kind if he had had to conduct his business discussions throughout on the radio. Indeed, I sometimes think that perhaps fewer marriages would take place if every courtship had to take place in the full glare of publicity.
Everybody in this House has welcomed Lord Halifax's visit to Germany. He is indeed an ideal person for that purpose, as an interpreter of English life and English thought. But I would say two things about that visit. First of all, the real value of a visit of that kind is that it should be a natural thing for that visit to be paid; that it should not be regarded as some extraordinary and exceptional event. The other is: do not let us expect too much from it. There must be, in any negotiations, various phases and successions of discussions. The worst service I think that can be done to any part of a negotiation is to surround that particular visit or that particular discussion with a tremendous glare of publicity, and to ask at every stage: "What has it done? How far has it succeeded? What is the result?" If that is to be the way in which visits of this sort are to take place, they will do more harm than good and we shall make them quite impossible. I would be indeed content if, as a result of visits of that kind, it were simply said: "We talked frankly and freely. We understand one another a great deal better." After all, international relations, like ordinary human relations, are based on mutual understanding breeding mutual confidence.
But if what is meant by this Motion—and I think from the interruption of the noble Lord that it is—is that your Lordships are entitled to know and the country is entitled to know the broad guiding principles on which we proceed, I think they have been very plainly stated by the Prime Minister. If I might sum them up in a sentence or two, they are these: The maintenance of peace and the settlement of disputes by peaceful means; the promotion of friendly relations with other nations who will reciprocate and keep the rules of international conduct which are themselves the guarantee of security and stability; and I would add that friendships are no less real because they are not exclusive. Another condition is the protection of British lives and British interests. After all, one is none the worse
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an internationalist, one is none the less respected or understood by other countries, if one looks after the interests of one's own people; and, in the light of those principles we desire the frankest and fullest examination and discussion of the origin and substance of international fears and suspicion.
This debate has ranged over problems political and economic. I would venture to make one or two very brief observations upon the latter, because I think it is important that we should see these matters in their true perspective. A good deal was said about Colonial markets. Our Colonial markets are open to everyone on equal terms, and in the mandated territories there is complete free trade. We have, neither in the trade that goes in nor the trade that comes out, any advantage over any other country. Moreover, in our own non-self-governing Colonies, we have recently made it clear that we are anxious to do anything that we can both to ease any difficulty there may be about raw materials and to aid in the development of international trade. The League Assembly last September had under consideration the Report and the recommendations of the Committee which was appointed at our suggestion to study the problem of raw materials. This Report shows conclusively that the problem of raw materials is not primarily or even substantially one of Colonial possessions. In fact, only a small proportion—I think about 3 per cent.—of the world's supply of raw materials comes from the whole of the Colonial territories taken together. We have deliberately refrained from pressing the preferential system beyond a limited point. When last year it became possible for us to introduce a preference in the largest of our African markets, Nigeria, we refrained from doing so.
There is no question of raw materials being unavailable. In every country, tropical and sub-tropical, every producer wants to sell as much as he can. But Colonial products, like any other product, have to be paid for, and they have to be paid for in currency which the vendor can use. In a normal world, where trade flowed freely, these currency problems lay beneath the surface, and hardly, if at all, interfered with the free flow of trade. To-day that is not the case, and surely it ought to be the effort of all Governments, as it is of our Government, to make that

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flow freer. The block is not due to tariffs, and I think this should be said: it did not exist before the War, when every country except our own had tariffs. How happy we should be if the flow of trade to-day were anything like as free as it was before the War! Tariffs, reasonably used, are not in the least a block to trade. The real block to trade lies in instability of currency and in the exchange controls which follow from it. It should be to remove this that our best efforts should be directed.
There is another consideration to which attention has been, and ought to be, called. It is a view which is held, and very reasonably held, by a number of people of moderate opinion who hold it with deep conviction. That view is based on the realisation of the truth that wars inflict grave loss and injury on all who take part in them whether they win or lose, and when the time comes to determine what steps can be taken in the general interest to remove disabilities or grievances it cannot be presumed in advance of an assessment of all the other factors that the mere passage of time has automatically obliterated the basis on which the immediate consequences of the war were settled. We were advised in one speech not to deal with isolated cases but to try and deal with our problems as a whole. That is very attractive advice if you could follow it, but, unfortunately, the isolated cases have to be dealt with. When there is a crisis upon you you cannot wait to deal with the situation until you can deal with the whole position. You must deal with the situation as it arises, but you must deal with it—and I think we can claim that whether in Spain or in the East we have tried to deal, and have dealt, with those individual cases—in accordance with the general principles which we should like to use in a complete settlement.
For reasons I have given I do not think it is practicable or desirable for the Government to make a comprehensive statement, but, if I interpret the general sense of the House, it is that we all agree in the objective before us. It is to arrive at what, in the terms of the Motion, is called "an all-round settlement," what I would prefer to call a lasting peace. The Government must have the responsibility of trying to achieve that settlement.
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They must decide, therefore, the methods which afford the best hope of achieving what certainly all in this country must earnestly desire, and indeed what I believe nearly every man in every country in the world desires, a lasting peace.
LORD DICKINSON: My Lords, at this late hour I shall not attempt to follow the observations that have been made by the noble Viscount who is at present leading the House, and I shall leave to my noble friend Lord Allen the duty of replying in whatever way he thinks best to the criticism which the noble Viscount has raised to the actual wording of the Motion. One thing I may say. I agree entirely with his view that the best way to deal with this question is by private and intimate communications with other people in other countries. But it does seem an extraordinary thing that we have to lay down that proposition twenty years after the War. What have we been doing all that time? Whose fault has it been that we have not got into such intimate communication as we are at the present moment with the Leader of this House visiting Berlin? It may have been the fault of the Germans to a certain extent. It probably was the fault of others. It was mainly due, I think, to the fact that each nation has been suspicious of the others and we have never been able to bring representatives of those nations together. The proposal of my noble friend is, at any rate, that we should take some steps which shall ensure consideration of the whole question from a general point of view.
I do not wish to delay your Lordships unduly, but I should like to make a few observations with regard to the subject that has been so ably discussed during yesterday and to-day. In the speeches to which we have listened I have been greatly impressed by the fact that whilst there have been suggestions as to the situation and as to the remedies that one or other would apply, we have not really considered what is fundamentally wrong in the condition of the world at the present moment. What is it that has brought about the situation which we have to-day? I suggest that although the great majority of people in every country do not wish for war, they are not in the proper frame of mind for making peace. Peace is not a negative virtue. It is something that requires positive action,

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and unless men are searching after peace as they search for gold it will never be attained. Men were in that state in 1919, but since then they have gradually fallen away. Statesmen at Versailles felt that they were justified in making great sacrifices on the part of their people. No fewer than fifty Governments signed a Covenant whereby they abandoned their right to make war. This was a great act of national self-sacrifice; but within a few months these same States, beginning with the United States of America, began to whittle down that obligation. Each nation claimed to settle for itself whether it should engage in warfare and thus the whole basis upon which the League was constructed fell to pieces. This process became more apparent as time passed.
As your Lordships will remember, under Article 8 of the Covenant the first step was to be taken towards the reduction of armaments. Article 8 of the Covenant was inserted for the purpose of carrying into effect what M. Clemenceau declared was to be "the first step" in a process of general disarmament and he assured the Germans that this would be carried out in return for the enforced reduction of their Army and Navy. Yet it took several years before the Conference would even agree to treat Germany on a basis of real equality. If we had only carried out the policy of Article 8 immediately after the War we should have saved Europe some hundreds of millions of pounds expended upon armaments since 1919.
There was another case in which we failed to carry out the conditions laid down by the Treaty of Versailles. My noble friend Lord Buxton has referred to this in reference to the question of the minorities. There are some 30,000,000 of such folk in various European countries. Amongst these minorities there were a good number of men of German blood, residing mostly in territories which were transferred to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Yugoslavia and Italy. The Powers, at Versailles, stipulated that the minorities should be safeguarded in respect of their language, religion and culture. This could only be done if the Governments of the States concerned had shown themselves willing to sacrifice something of their national pride and to allow men of another race or language to live their own life in such way as they had been
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used to. None of the States was sufficiently generous to do this, and as several of them were strongly represented upon the Council of the League it was found impossible to compel observance of the Minority Treaties. What has been the result? It has alienated the minorities from the majorities in their new countries; it has brought them constantly into conflict with their Governments; and amongst the minorities of German origin and speech, it has given rise to a movement in favour of the Nazi Party and a general desire to co-operate with it. Nothing is more noticeable amongst what I term the German Diaspora than this new tendency to look to Germany for inspiration.
People whose connection with the German Reich has been severed for centuries now turn their eyes towards it for relief from the hardships which they have been compelled to undergo by the majorities who rule over them. The Nazis in Germany have not been slow to take advantage of this and, by inviting these people to visit Germany and by other methods, they have popularised the Nazi cause among German-speaking people both inside and outside of Germany. This is very noticeable in Czechoslovakia where the Sudetendeutschen who have never formed part of Germany are now in close relations with the Nazis and by this means are wresting from the Czechs minority rights which the Czech Government ought to have granted- them voluntarily long ago. Both there and elsewhere the Minority Treaties, which were framed with the object of pacifying Europe, have proved to be a source of irritation, and this is due mainly to the extravagant claims of nationalist majorities to overrule the legitimate demands of other races. These races have been deprived of their rights by the exercise of an unreasoning and selfish nationalism, and a return to reason and good feeling on the part of the dominant race would rapidly tend to re-establish peace in Europe.
There is another problem which requires similar treatment if war is to be prevented. It is that of the former German Colonies. It is odd that although this question looms large in the public eye to-day it has only recently assumed its present dimensions. A few years ago, outside of a small band of former Colonial administrators, who were bona-fide be-

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lievers in Germany's capacity for colonisation, the demand for the return of the Colonies evoked but little response in that country. Herr Hitler has said that he does not attach much value to the Cameroons, for one very good reason—namely, that he did not wish German blood to be mixed with that of coloured races. Nevertheless, the demand for the return of the Colonies has proved to be a useful plank in an electioneering platform and is now an essential part of German claims for equality of treatment. But beyond this, there is the further claim for land in Eastern Europe. Germany established long ago settlements in South Russia, in Poland and on the Baltic. Some of these were separated from her by the Treaty of Versailles and others by post-War policies and her population problem was thereby intensified. Now, difficult though it would have been, I think that if the League of Nations had taken up such questions as those of Memel or the Polish Corridor, in exercise of its power under Article 19 of the Covenant, much of the legitimate complaint of Germany might have been removed by now. Of course Poland would have objected; but would it not be better for Poland to have peace than to be cursed—as she is now—with the eternal questions that arise in Danzig and Silesia?
Would it not, also, be to the advantage of the whole world if Germans could resume the practice of peaceful colonisation which they carried on so effectively before the War? No one can deny that the German people make first-rate colonists. Unfortunately, we have got into our own heads—and still more unfortunately into their heads also—the idea that every German on foreign soil must necessarily become a conspirator against the State in which he has found a home. This has not been so in the past and—pace Herr Hitler—it need not be so in the future. The German settler is known throughout the British Empire. In Australia he is among the most hardworking and prosperous of the inhabitants. In the United States of America there are some millions living in compact blocks, speaking practically nothing but German; but nevertheless good Americans except in war time. Even in Russia there are, I believe, certain Soviet States whose administration has been in the
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hands of Germans living in peace with their neighbours until the political machinations of the Nazis in Germany against Soviet Russia induced the authorities in Moscow to retaliate upon their German subjects and cause them a great deal of suffering. Herr Hitler hardly knows what hardships result to persons of German blood by his allowing it to be thought that he intends to seize territory by the sword. I doubt if he thinks the conquest of Russia is possible in any circumstances and if we can show him a better way whereby to restore prosperity to his people—namely, by methods of justice and peace—he will probably adopt it.
But we must be prepared to lead the way in any such policy and we could do so with comparative ease. We might begin by handing over to Germany the "B" Mandates which we hold over territories which before the War were in the German sphere of influence. I believe this would do no injury to the native inhabitants, nor would it constitute any military danger to the British Empire comparable to the gain in security arising out of the removal of a constant source of irritation between our two peoples. By the Mandate Germany would of course be prohibited from raising a military force among the natives or constructing fortifications. And if similar action were to be taken by France a great step forward towards a Franco-German understanding would have been taken. If this were followed up by a general extension of the system of Mandates in relation to territories where white men hold sway over coloured people, it might be the opening out of a new future for the primitive races of the world.
I know that it will be said that any proposal such as this would be a betrayal of the people who are at present safe and contented under British rule. I do not admit this. On the contrary, if by international arrangements of this character a world peace could be brought nearer and rendered more secure, the profit to those people would far outweigh any immediate loss they may suffer. And if nothing of the kind is done, they and we must all go on living on the verge of a volcano. They and we shall have to stand ready to destroy our neighbour. They will have to be educated, not in the ways of peace, but in the ways of war, as Italy is doing in Africa. They and we shall all live in a state of ferment until the forces we shall

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have called into being burst whatever bands remain and civilisation is reduced to ashes. I believe that no amount of conference between diplomats and statesmen will save us from this fate unless we can induce the people of the world to realise that they must all make sacrifices. It is on popular sentiment that we shall have to rely and to popular sentiment that we must appeal. I do not think that this is hopeless. If you read the speeches of Signor Mussolini and even more those of Herr Hitler, you will see that both of
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them profess to be striving after peace. Whether that is true or not, it shows that in their view their own people wish for peace, and I believe that if England only shows clearly a way to peace through self-sacrifice those people will follow her along it.
LORD ALLEN OF HURTWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at twenty minute past seven o'clock.