Sitting of 10 November 1937

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

DEATH OF A MEMBER.
Mr. SPEAKER made the following communication to the House;
I regret that I have to inform the House of the death of the Rt. Hon. James Ramsay MacDonald, late Member for the Scottish Universities, and to express our sense of the loss we have sustained, and our sympathy with the relatives.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HALIFAX) BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the county borough of Halifax;" presented by Sir Kingsley Wood, read the First time and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 42.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  ANTI-COMINTERN PACT.
  Sir Nicholas Grattan-Doyleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the association of Italy with the German-Japanese Anti-Comintern Pact?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Viscount Cranborne): My hon. Friend will, no doubt, have seen in the public press the text of the agreement concluded since he gave notice of his question, and providing for the accession of Italy to the agreement concluded between the German and Japanese Governments on 25th November, 1936, against the Communist International. For the convenience of the House I am arranging to have it circulated in the official
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  record as my reply to the hon. Member's question.
  Mr. Shinwell: What are the Noble Lord's views about this association?
  Viscount Cranborne: I do not think I am called upon to express the Government's views on an agreement which has been reached between three other countries.
  Mr. Shinwell: Are we to understand that the Government so far have not made up their mind?
  Mr. Thurtle: Arising out of the original reply, may I ask the Under-Secretary whether the agreement is in fact against the Communist International and not against Communism generally?
  Viscount Cranborne: I think that question should be addressed to the German, Italian and Japanese Governments.
  Following is the text of the Protocol signed on 6th November, 1937:
  The Italian Government,
  The Government of the German Reich,
  The Imperial Government of japan,
  Considering that the Communist International continues constantly to endanger the civilised world in the West and the East, disturbing and destroying peace and order,
  Convinced that only strict collaboration among all the States interested in the maintenance of peace and order, can limit and remove that danger,
  Considering that Italy—who with the ad— vent of the Fascist Regime has fought such a danger with inflexible determination and has eliminated the Communist International from her territory—has decided to range herself against the common enemy by the side of Germany and Japan, who for their parts are animated by the same will to defend themselves against the Communist International
  Have, in accordance with Article 2 of the Agreement against the Communist International concluded at Berlin on 25th November, 1936, between Germany and Japan, agreed to the following:
  Article 1.
  Italy participates in (entra a far parte) the Agreement against the Communist Inter— national and in the supplementary Protocol concluded on 25th November, 1936, between Germany and Japan, the text of which is quoted in the annex to the present Protocol.
  Article 2.
  The three signatory Powers of the present Protocol agree that Italy shall be considered as an original signatory of the Agreement and of the supplementary Protocol mentioned in the preceding Article, the signature of the present Protocol being equivalent to the signature of the original text of the aforesaid Agreement and supplementary Protocol.
  Article 3.
  The present Protocol will constitute an integral part of the above mentioned Agreement and supplementary Protocol.
  Article 4.
  The present Protocol is drawn up in Italian, Japanese and German, each text being considered as authentic. It will enter into force on the day of the signature.
  In faith of which the undersigned, duly authorised by their respective Governments, have signed the present Protocol and have attached their seals thereto.
  Made in triplicate at Rome, the 6th November, 1937: Year 16 of the Fascist Era, which corresponds to 6th Novchber of the 12th year of Syowa.
  CIANO.
  VON RIBBENTROP.
  HOTTA.

  CHINA AND JAPAN.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, arising ow: of the recent firing by Japanese aeroplanes on three British Embassy cars, it is now the practice for the Japanese military authorities to be notified of the movements of British subjects by car in China?
  Viscount Cranborne: As regards British subjects in general, there is no such practice. Arising out of the shooting of Sir H. Knatchbull-Hugessen, however, it was decided to notify to the Japanese authorities, where possible, the intention of His Majesty's officials in China to enter a danger zone. The absence, however, of such a notification would not of course absolve the Japanese Government from responsibility for any unlawful hurt or damage committed by their forces in China.
  Mr. Mander: Would not the proper course be for the Japanese to cease bombing a country with whom they are not at war?
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Has the Japanese Government made any payment by way of compensation to Sir Hughe?
  Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will inform the House of the contents of the latest reports he has received from His Majesty's representatives in China as to the general situation at present in that country?
  Viscount Cranborne: I would refer the hon. Member to recent statements on the situation in the Far East by my right hon. Friend in this House, to which I have at present nothing to add. If, however, the hon. Member desires information on any specific point, my right hon. Friend will do his best to provide it.
  Mr. Day: Can the Under-Secretary say whether the nationalists and rebels are really united?

  SPAIN.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what countries are in arrears at the present time, and to what extent, in their contributions towards the expenses of the Non-Intervention Board; and whether any countries have given notice of their intention to cease contributing?
  Viscount Cranborne: I understand that it is contrary to the practice of the Non-Intervention Committee to furnish to any Government detailed particulars regarding the payments into the fund made by the. various participating countries. But I am informed that, as regards the majority of the countries, there are substantially no arrears due. As regards the second part of the question, the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics has, I understand, intimated that it does not propose to make the payment due on 8th October last or further payments until agreement has been reached for restoring and strengthening the observation scheme.
  Mr. Mander: Is it really worth while any country paying this contribution? Can the Noble Lord say which countries are covered by the first part of his statement?
  Viscount Cranborne: I will repeat what I have said in the answer. It is contrary to the practice of the Non-Intervention Committee to furnish any Government with detailed particulars. As to the payments into the fund, I can give the hon. Member the assurance that as regards the majority of the countries, there are substantially no arrears due.
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government is demanding compensation from the administration of

  1747
  General Franco for the detention of British ships conducting legitimate trade with Government Spain?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the total amount of claims outstanding against General Franco in respect of compensation for attacks on or damage to British ships; and what is the present state of the negotiations regarding these claims?
  Viscount Cranborne: A considerable number of ships have been seized and unlawfully detained, and a few have been damaged or sunk, as the result of attacks by the Salamanca authorities. In addition, various British-owned cargoes carried in foreign ships have been unlawfully seized and detained. In all these cases His Majesty's Government have protested against the action of the Salamanca authorities and have reserved the right to claim damages, but have not yet presented any claims in detail, and His Majesty's Government are not at present in a position to state what the amount of these claims is.
  Mr. Gallacher: Has the Under-Secretary made is clear that these are acts of piracy and that the fullest compensation will be demanded from the Salamanca authorities?
  Viscount Cranborne: I have already said that we reserve the right to demand compensation, and by compensation I mean full compensation.
  Mr. Gallacher: But has it been made clear that we regard them as acts of piracy?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is it the case that the Foreign Office has before it at the present moment a claim of £61,000 from one firm of shipowners alone, and can the Noble Lord say what is being done in respect of that claim?
  Viscount Cranborne: I should like to have notice of the details of a claim. I understand the general practice in the case of hostilities is that arrangements are made for a settlement at the end of the conflict. I understand that has been the universal practice in the past.
  Mr. Thorne: What will happen if General Franco files his petition?
  Mr. H. G. Williams: Can the Noble Lord say by what method compensation is exacted from a Government which you do not recognise?
  Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information regarding the number of Italian troops that have reached or left Spain since 1st October of this year?
  Viscount Cranborne: I have been in touch with the Non-Intervention Board, and I understand that certain reports alleging that Italian troops have reached or left Spain since 1st October have been investigated, but that the Board has no confirmation.
  Mr. Strauss: Does that mean that no troops have arrived in Spain?
  Viscount Cranborne: it means exactly what it says. It means that the Board have no confirmation of such rumours.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is it not the case that the Board have never had any confirmation of the arrival of Italian troops in Spain, which we know are there?
  Viscount Cranborne: That appears to be an extension of the previous question.
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the course of his inquiries into the case of the "Jean Weems," he has ascertained whether the attack on the vessel was deliberate or accidental?
  Viscount Cranborne: There can be no doubt that the attack was deliberate in the sense that the dropping of bombs on the ship was a deliberate action. From my information it was, however, undertaken under the impression that the vessel was carrying armaments.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Do the Government accept as a legitimate explanation that an aeroplane believes that a ship is carrying arms; and even if it were, is it a justification for sinking a ship on the high seas?
  Viscount Cranborne: No, we do not regard it as legitimate.
  Mr. A. Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the captain of the British steamer "Jean Weems," sunk by bombs from an aeroplane when 60 miles off the coast of Spain, has stated that the Union Jack was prominently displayed on the

  1749
  deck of his vessel at the time of the attack; and what steps he proposes to take to protect British ships in the future?
  Viscount Cranborne: According to my information the "Jean Weems" was 15 miles from the coast when the attack took place. Reports received by my right hon. Friend do not specify that the Union Jack was displayed on deck at the time. With regard to the last part of the question, I would invite the hon. Member's attention to the statement made by my right hon. Friend in reply to a question put to him on 1st November by the right lion. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in which my right hon. Friend referred to the consideration of future arrangements for strengthening the measures against air attack now in force under the Nyon Agreement. This consideration is being urgently pursued with the French Government. His Majesty's Government have also, as the House is aware, required assurances from the Salamanca authorities regarding the future.
  Mr. Jenkins: Is the Noble Lord aware that the captain of the "Jean Weems" has now arrived in this country and has made a statement with regard to the sinking of that ship, in which he says; "We were flying the Red Ensign and the non—intervention emblem, and we had the Union jack painted on the poop and the deck house. When the aeroplane first flew over the ship she saw the whole of that, but despite that she returned and sunk the ship when she was 53 miles from Barcelona"?
  Viscount Cranborne: I am not disputing the statement about the Union Jack. I am merely saying the the reports we have received do not specify that particular fact. As regards the distance, we have been carefully investigating it. Our report says 15 miles from the shore. That is not a point of principle, although it is a point of fact. It makes no real difference.
  Mr. Jenkins: Will the Noble Lord consult the captain as to the exact position of the ship when she was sunk and take definite steps to protect British seamen in such circumstances?
  Viscount Cranborne: Yes, but I am pointing out that whether it is 15 or 60 miles from the coast, it is outside territorial waters.
  Mr. Thurtle: Can the Noble Lord explain why there has been a change in the phraseology of the Foreign Office, which now refers to the Salamanca authorities, whereas formerly it referred to the insurgent authorities?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is it not very dangerous for our ships to fly the Union Jack, in view of the fact that it is the one flag which pirates seem to think they can attack with impunity?

  PALESTINE.

    IRAQI GOVERNMENT'S VIEWS.
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the nature of the protest addressed by the Iraqi Government against the British Government's action in Palestine; and whether he will inform the Iraqi Government that Great Britain is responsible to the Mandates Commission of the League of Nations alone?
    Viscount Cranborne: His Majesty's Government have received various communications from the Iraqi Government, as from the other Arab Governments, stating their views, which are well known, in regard to the policy and action of His Majesty's Government in Palestine. His Majesty's Government do not consider that any useful purpose would be served by publishing these communications at the present stage. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. Under the Mandate, His Majesty's Government are responsible not to the Iraqi, nor to any other particular foreign Government, but to the League of Nations—not to the Mandates Commission—for their administration of Palestine in general, or the treatment of Palestinian citizens. But His Majesty's Government have no reason to suppose that the Iraqi Government are not aware of this fact, nor is there anything inconsistent with it in the terms of the communications received from that Government.
    Mr. Mander: Do I understand that the Government are not prepared to have pressure put upon them by outside Governments, except through the League of Nations?
    Viscount Cranborne: Certainly we are not prepared to have pressure put upon us.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Then why did they accept this from the Iraqi Government? Why did they not tell them off?

    SITUATION.
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement as to the present situation in Palestine?
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): I do not think that there is any general statement that I can usefully make at the present juncture. As the House will be aware, further acts of terrorism have been committed during recent weeks, details of which have been published in the Press. The local authorities, civil and military, are fully alive to the seriousness of the situation. Further measures for dealing with such offences as carrying arms, the use of arms, sabotage, intimidation and the like, are contemplated.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    CYPRUS.
    Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what decisions have been reached regarding the future of Cyprus as a possible base?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Shakespeare): None, Sir.
    Mr. A. V. Alexander: Has nothing happened as a result of the report by the present Home Secretary more than 12 months ago?
    Mr. Shakespeare: This is part of the larger question as to the position in the Mediterranean.
    Mr. Alexander: Seeing that the Home Secretary made the visit and came back and made a public statement, is it not right now that the House should know what is the Government's policy?
    Mr. Shinwell: Are we to understand that the Government have not made up their mind as to the strategic position of this country in the Mediterranean? When are they going to make up their mind?

    SLOOPS, RED SEA.
    Mr. Dayasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether there are at present any sloops detailed for duty in the Red Sea; and, if so, what are their principal duties?
    Mr. Shakespeare: There are two sloops detailed for duty in the Red Sea— His Majesty's Ship "Londonderry" and His Majesty's Ship "Weston." Their duties include the protection of British interests and the prevention of slave trading and gun running.
    Mr. Day: Do recent reports show that there is still a continuance of the slave traffic between Africa and Arabia?
    Mr. Shakespeare: The hon. Member had better put that question on the Paper, but certainly the slave trade has very considerably decreased.
    Mr. Day: Have any dhows been captured lately with slaves on them?
    Mr. Shakespeare: Not to my knowledge.

    PORTSMOUTH DOCKYARD (PAYMENT BY RESULTS).
    Mr. Ralph Beaumontasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the reason for the recent curtailment of payment by results in Portsmouth Dockyard?
    Mr. Shakespeare: There has been no recent curtailment of payment by results in Portsmouth yard, but the actual numbers employed on this basis necessarily fluctuate week by week in accordance with requirements.

    COMMISSIONED RANKS (RULE FOR ENTRY).
    Mr. G. Straussasked the First Lord of the Admiralty with regard to the recent advertisement by the Admiralty for dentists, containing the stipulation that applicants must be British subjects of pure European descent, what is meant by pure European descent?
    Mr. Shakespeare: The long-standing rule for entry into the commissioned ranks of all branches of the Royal Navy is as follows:
    "Candidates must be British subjects of pure European descent and the sons of persons who are British subjects al the time of the officer's entry."
    The requirement of pure European descent is not peculiar to the Navy and the use of the term is, I think, well understood.
    Mr. Strauss: If a Canadian applied, after having been established in this country for many years, would he have to prove his ancestry right back three or four generations?
    Mr. Shakespeare: I presume he would be of pure European descent, as we are.
    Mr. Alexander: Are we to take it that those regulations will now entirely debar a qualified man of this kind from the West Indies?
    Mr. Shakespeare: If he came under this definition, he would be admitted.
    Mr. Strauss: Is this not a step towards acceptance of the Nazi regime?
    Hon. Members: Answer, answer!
    Mr. Speaker: I must remind hon. Members that my duty towards Members of Parliament is to protect them from discourtesy from other Members of Parliament, and my duty concerns Ministers just as well as others, because Ministers also arc Members of the House of Commons.
    Miss Wilkinson: On a point of Order. May I, as a humble backbencher, ask whether it is really part of the duty of the Chair to protect Ministers from perfectly legitimate supplementary questions?
    Mr. Speaker: To cry "Answer, Answer!" is not a perfectly legitimate supplementary question.
    Mr. Paling: Further to the point of Order, may I ask whether the cry "Answer, Answer!" comes within the category of being discourteous? May I also ask whether this cry has not been a perfectly legitimate Parliamentary cry, at any rate, for a number of years, and perhaps for generations?
    Mr. Speaker: It has never been a legitimate cry while I have been in the Chair.

  RAND (NATIVE LABOUR)
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make representations to the Government of the Union of South Africa flat, in return for the concession of recruitment of labour for the Rand from British Colonial territories, that Government should ratify the International Labour Office convention on the recruitment of Native labour?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No, Sir. The question of the ratification of the Convention in respect of the Union of South
  1754
  Africa is entirely a matter for His Majesty's Government in the Union.
  Mr. Creech Jones: In view of the fact that the Government are now issuing licences for recruitment in certain British Colonial territories for work in the Union, will not the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Union that this Convention should be ratified before the labour is supplied?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have no constitutional position under the Statute of Westminster to communicate in any way with the Government of the Union of South Africa. This is entirely a matter for the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, to whom such questions should be addressed.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to his right hon. Friend?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No. This is entirely a matter for him, and if the hon. Member will put a question to my right hon. Friend, he will no doubt answer for that for which he is responsible.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Before further licences are granted for recruitment for the Rand, will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the fact that the Union of South Africa have not ratified the International Labour Office Convention?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have already made my opinion quite clear on that in answer to many previous questions.

  JAMAICA (NUTRITION COMMITTEE).
  Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the committee on nutrition set up in Jamaica is expected to report soon; and, if not, whether, in view of the importance of the subject, its interim report will be published?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have not the information asked for; but I will make inquiry of the Governor.

  TRINIDAD.
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) what is the present position in Trinidad;

  1755
  (2) on what grounds the Governor of Trinidad has requested the dispatch of troops to that Colony, to be paid for by the Colony; and what conditions will have to be fulfilled before these troops will be withdrawn?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am glad to say that there have been no further disturbances in Trinidad. Recently a strike occurred at a sugar factory, but it came to an end early and without disorder. Nevertheless, a considerable amount of tension exists, and may be expected to continue pending the publication of the Commission's report. In this connection I would invite reference to the announcement made by the Governor on 2nd November, a copy of which is being placed in the Library of the House. From this it will be seen that the duration of the stay of the troops will depend upon circumstances. I do not feel able to lay down precise conditions precedent to their withdrawal.
  Mr. Lunn: Has the right hon. Gentleman heard anything of a charge of incitement to disaffection made by the Governor against a member of the Legislative Council?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No, I have not.
  Mr. Adams: When is the Commission expected to report?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Two members of the Commission have now returned to this country, and the third is on his way. They have made considerable headway with the preparation of the report, and I expect it some time next month.
  Miss Wilkinson: Can we have an undertaking from the Government that the presence of British troops there is not being used to overawe people who are making a perfectly legitimate protest against low wages?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It has nothing to do with that. The hon. Lady will remember that there was, in connection with an industrial dispute, very serious loss of life and acts of violence, including the burning of a police office, and it is felt by the Government that that is not the right way to conduct industrial negotiations and that it is essential to prevent sabotage and violence.
  Miss Wilkinson: But is anything being done to improve the low wages as well as to prevent acts of violence?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Yes a Commission of Inquiry has been out, and will make proposals.
  Mr. Gallacher: How is it that when there is trouble of this kind and when a person on one side is killed it is always murder, but if a worker is killed it is not murder?

  KENYA.

    EUROPEAN HIGHLANDS.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Government policy, as proposed in the new Order in Council on the subject of the European Highlands in Kenya, involves either legal or administrative discrimination against Indians and Africans; whether Italians, Germans and Portuguese will be subject to the same discrimination; and whether, in pursuance of this policy and not for good administrative reasons, the few Africans attached to their ancestral lands will continue to be compulsorily removed?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It is not intended that the Order in Council defining the boundaries of the Highlands area shall include any provision involving legal or administrative discrimination on the basis of race or nationality in connection with the occupation of land in that area. The issue of the Order will, therefore, not affect the policy which has been followed since 1906, as set out in Command Paper 1922 of 1923. The Kenya Land Commission framed what they recommended as a comprehensive and final settlement of Kenya's land problems, and from an administrative point of view such a settlement is of the first importance.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Am I to take it that it will be possible for Indians to purchase land in the European Highlands, or, alternatively, will any kind of administrative discrimination operate as far as that district is concerned?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I must refer the hon. Member to the terms of the White Paper issued in 1922, since when there has been no change.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Does not that mean that the Indians will still be unable to get land there while Italians, Germans and Portuguese will be able to get it?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that this has been the practice since 1906 under successive Governments. I propose to make no change.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the last clause in my question?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: As I understand it, the whole point is whether any rights to ancestral lands are involved. The Morris Carter Commission are clearly satisfied that in the area in question there are no claims to ancestral lands which in their opinion are valid.

    MOMBASA (INTER-TRIBAL QUARREL).
    Mr. de Rothschildasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make any statement with regard to the riots which took place during August in Mombasa?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the reply in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    An inter—tribal quarrel broke out in Mombasa between the Luo and the Washihiri Arabs from 23rd to 27th August. The riot, which arose out of a quarrel between a householder and his lodger, was not directed against Government and was confined entirely to a part of the native quarter. The situation was soon under control and order was reestablished without any casualties being sustained or caused by the police. One Luo and II Washihiri are known to have lost their lives. Such inter-tribal quarrels are unfortunately always likely to arise unexpectedly in a place like Mombasa. The Provincial Commissioner is now engaged in a further examination of the problems arising out of this incident.

    NATIVE LABOUR.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will withhold his consent from the Native Tenants Land Ordinance in Kenya on the ground of the heavy penalties imposed on Africans for breach of contract, the
    1758
    decreased security given to the natives, the increased period of compulsory labour, and other reactionary amendments to the previous Ordinance?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: There is no such thing as a native tenants ordinance, and I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Resident Labourers Ordinance which has recently been passed by the Legislative Council. Before its introduction the Ordinance received my careful consideration, and I do not propose to advise that it be disallowed on any of the grounds mentioned. The Ordinance actually provides for reduced penalties as compared with those in the law as it stands. The Ordinance, like the legislation which it is to replace, prescribes the conditions on which native labourers leaving their reserve may enter into voluntary contracts of employment on non-native farms; it does not impose compulsory labour. I have been informed by the Governor that it is not proposed to bring the Ordinance into operation until satisfactory provision can be made for the accommodation on other lands of any natives who may be required to leave farms when their existing contracts of service have expired.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Cannot assent to these proposals be deferred pending further consideration of the matter of compulsory labour; and is it not a fact tha the Ordinance does definitely increase the number of days of compulsory labour, and that there are heavy penalties embodied in it?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I answered the last supplementary question last week. There is no reference to compulsory labour in this Ordinance. That is dealt with in an entirely separate Ordinance. This is entirely a matter of dealing with voluntary contracts entered into by labourers.
    Mr. Ammon: Is it not a fact that the Ordinance does lay down that labour must be supplied and fixes a period of compulsory labour?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: If they contract to go out of the reserve to a farm, bringing their cattle and the like with them, then it has to be for a certain period. It is a contract of service, and it provides for so many days service in that contract year.
    Mr. Ammon: Does that contract mean that they have either to accept or starve?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: There is no suggestion that any native need leave his reserve to go to any particular employer. If he goes to reside outside the native reserve on a European farm, the relations between employer and employed should be regulated and minimum wages should be laid down.

    GOLD ROYALTY.
    Mr. Lunnasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what grounds the Government of Kenya Colony has agreed to the suspension for two years of payment of the royalty on gold won in that Colony?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: On the advice of the Governor of Kenya, I have decided to suspend the royalty temporarily because its payment absorbed too large a proportion of the small profits being won by the industry at present, and it is thought that the temporary suspension of royalties will enable mining companies to continue work and development the cessation or curtailment of which would have disadvantageous economic and social consequences. I have suggested to the Governor that in lieu of royalty a scheme of profit sharing should be adopted so that if any profits are, in fact, earned, the Government may secure a substantial share.
    Mr. Lunn: Does this apply to all the prospectors of gold, native or otherwise?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Oh, yes; it applies everywhere in Kenya.
    Mr. McEntee: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a temporary suspension and has any time limit, or whether it is to become a permanent suspension?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It entirely depends on the future of the industry. Admittedly the amount of gold being got is small as compared with other gold-producing countries in Africa.
    Mr. Macquisten: Will it not be very foolish to levy royalties from low grade mines? Will it not prevent their being worked and so cause their ore to be left in the ground as an underground monument to Government stupidity and cupidity?

  IRAQ (ASSYRIAN CHRISTIANS).
  Commander Locker-Lampsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the plight of the 30,000 to 40,000 Assyrian Christians in Iraq; and whether he will consider their settlement in some place in Africa under British protection?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have nothing to add to the full reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to a question by the hon. Member for Walsall (Mr. Leckie) on 4th November.

  HONG KONG.
  Mr. Moreingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the present position of the colony of Hong Kong; what is the decline in trade; what are the numbers of persons who have taken refuge in the island; how these are being maintained; and what is the financial position of the Government and the economic position of the community at the present time?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: My hon. Friend's question is a very comprehensive one, and if he would be so good as to repeat it next week as a non—oral question I shall be in a position to give him a detailed reply.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA (LABOUR, INQUIRY).
  Mr. Lunnasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give information as to the scope of the inquiries to be made by Major Orde-Browne in Northern Rhodesia; and whether he will be empowered to make recommendations for dealing with the question of natives working at some distance from their homes, either within the territory or outside it, in order to prevent the continuance of evils such as those described in the Report on Migrant Labour in Nyasaland?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Under the terms of the appointment of the commission of which he is chairman, Major Orde-Browne will be empowered to investigate the labour problem in all its aspects.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Does that include the conditions of employment of white labour?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Major Orde-Browne is an experienced officer, and will deal primarily with the question of native labour.

  EAST AFRICA (BROADCASTING).
  Colonel Sandeman Allenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, with a view to preventing the possibility of anti-British propaganda among the East and Central African natives, he will consider the subsidisation of a more powerful broadcasting station at Nairobi with the object of disseminating British news?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The Empire news broadcasts from Daventry are well received throughout East Africa and are considered adequate in present circumstances. The possibility of establishing and developing further local broadcasting services somewhere in East Africa is being examined by the various Governments concerned.

  CYPRUS (WATER SUPPLIES).
  Sir William Davisonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the urgent need for the formation of dams or reservoirs in Cyprus to store the heavy winter rains for the irrigation of the great agricultural plain during the six dry summer months; and whether steps will be taken as soon as possible to deal with this urgent matter?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I fully share my hon. Friend's opinion of the importance of water supplies to Cyprus. Technical investigation has already been made, and last year a grant of 30,000 from the Colonial Development Fund was approved, which will enable an engineer to carry out further investigations as to the best means of developing water supplies. There are great difficulties about the method of using dams and reservoirs, but the present investigation will show whether any development in that direction is in fact feasible.
  Mr. Petherick: Can my right hon. Friend say when the investigation will be completed and when he will be likely to get his report from the engineer?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: He is there now. So many of the mountains in that part of the world consist of porous strata and will not hold water.

  TANGANYIKA (LUPA GOLDFIELDS).
  Mr. Palingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the criticisms of the situation in the Lupa goldfields which were made by the Permanent Mandates Commission, he will take steps to ensure that in future no persons shall be allowed to undertake mining in the area unless they hold a minimum amount of capital such as would enable them to cover their wage liabilities, and that a stricter use shall be made by the board of control of its powers to expel undesirable employers?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Early this year the Government of Tanganyika considered the possibility of introducing a system whereby holders of prospecting licences in the Lupa area would be required to make deposits to cover wage liabilities, but it was decided that such a system would be quite impracticable. I am, however, asking the Governor whether the Government proposes to give further consideration to the matter in the light of the criticisms to which the hon. Member refers. As regards the second part of the question, the Tanganyika Government has impressed on the Control Board the importance of its taking resolute action to expel undesirable persons from the goldfield where this is necessary in the public interest.

  CIVIL AVIATION.

    MUNICIPAL. AIRPORTS.
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will give a list of municipal airports now established in this country, showing where regular internal air lines are operating and indicating the nature and extent of such services?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead): As the reply is necessarily long and in tabular form I will, if I may, circulate the list in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the list:—

    Municipal Aerodromes—Reglar Internal Services.

    Aerodrome.

    Regular services available.

    Frequency.

    Blackpool

    Isle of Man, Liverpool, Manchester, Belfast, Glasgow.

    Twice daily each way weekdays. Once each way Sundays.

    Brighton-Hove-Worthing*

    —

    —

    Bristol*

    Dublin, London

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Cardiff*

    Weston-super-Mare

    Six services daily each way.

    Carlisle*

    —

    —

    Doncaster

    London, Leeds/Bradford, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Perth, Manchester, Liverpool, Hull, Grimsby.

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Exeter*

    —

    —

    Gloucester - Cheltenham*

    —

    —

    Grimsby

    Hull

    Five services each way weekdays.

    Doncaster, Manchester, Liverpool

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Hull

    Grimsby

    Five services each way weekdays

    Doncaster, Manchester, Liverpool

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Inverness*

    Wick, Kirkwall

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Thurso, Stromness

    Thrice each way weekly.

    Ipswich

    —

    —

    Leeds-Bradford

    London, Doncaster, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Perth.

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Leicester

    —

    —

    Liverpool*

    Birmingham, Stoke, Grimsby, Hull, Doncaster, Manchester, London, Blackpool, Isle of Man, Belfast, Glasgow.

    Various.

    Manchester (Barton)

    London, Liverpool, Belfast, Glasgow, Blackpool, Isle of Man, Grimsby, Hull, Doncaster, Birmingham, Stoke.

    Various.

    Newcastle-upon-Tyne

    London, Doncaster, Leeds/Bradford, York, Edinburgh, Perth.

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Norwich

    —

    —

    Nottingham

    —

    —

    Perth

    London, Doncaster, Leeds/Bradford, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh.

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Plymouth*

    —

    —

    Portsmouth*

    Ryde

    Eight services each way weekdays. Seven each way Sundays.

    Ramsgate

    —

    —

    Renfrew*

    London, Birmingham, Stoke, Liverpool, Belfast, Manchester, Blackpool, Isle of Man, Barra, South Uist, North Uist, Campbeltown, Islay.

    Various.

    Rochester

    —

    —

    Southampton*

    Jersey.

    Twice daily each way weekdays. Once each way Sundays.

    Southend

    —

    —

    Stoke-on-Trent

    London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Belfast, Glasgow.

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    Walsall

    —

    —

    Weston-super-Mare*

    Cardiff

    Six services daily each way.

    Wolverhampton

    —

    —

    York

    London, Doncaster, Leeds/ Bradford, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Perth.

    Once daily each way weekdays.

    * Certain seasonal Services operating from these airports are suspended at present.

    Mr. Lyons: In view of the cessation of certain home air services will my hon. and gallant Friend say whether any steps are now in immediate contemplation for the promotion and encouragement of internal air lines in this country?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: That seems to he another question.
    Mr. Montague: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how many of these aerodromes are properly equipped with up-

    1765
    to-date landing grounds and air control, and is he aware that a large number of aerodromes in this country have no really qualified air control at all?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: That again, I think, is another question.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is it not a fact that civil aviation is in two hands only?

    ACCIDENT (MR. GOVIND P. NAIR).
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that, prior to the departure of Mr. Govind P. Nair on his fatal flight, the Air Ministry had received communications from instructors and other authorities that Mr. Nair was not fit to hold an "A" licence; why, in those circumstances, Mr. Nair was allowed to fly; and what steps he is taking to prevent similar occurrences in future?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: Although doubts had been expressed in certain unofficial quarters regarding Mr. Nair's flying capabilities, there were no adequate grounds for preventing the flight in question, as the pilot had already satisfied the requirements for the grant of a Class "A" pilot's licence, and the flight did not infringe the regulations. As regards the last part of the question, it is the Air Ministry policy to allow private pilots the greatest possible measure of freedom provided they fulfil the prescribed regulations.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Were the Air Ministry under any doubt whatsoever that this gentleman was quite unable to fly, and is it not a fact that they were informed by quite competent expert authorities that if he were allowed to de— part on this flight, there must be fatal consequences?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: No; I said in my answer that doubts had been expressed in certain unofficial quarters in regard to Mr. Nair's flying capabilities, but that he had satisfied the conditions for the grant of an "A" licence, and we saw no reason to interfere.
    Mr. Montague: Has the Ministry any knowledge of how this impecunious gentleman came into possession of this aeroplane?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: I do not think that is our responsibility.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is it not the case that the qualification for the possession of an "A" licence is only three hours solo flying a year? In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter at an early opportunity.

    IMPERIAL AIRWAYS, LIMITED.
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the total number of aircraft owned by Imperial Airways, Limited, that have been involved in any serious accidents during 1934, 1935, 1936, and up to the latest available date in 1937?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: For the years quoted the numbers are respectively— nil, I, 4 and 3, the last being correct to the present date. These refer to accidents in which there was death or serious injury.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    NIGHT FLYING.
    Mr. Kennedyasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that the inhabitants of the Arbroath and Montrose areas are protesting regarding the noises occasioned by continuous night flying of aircraft from the aerodrome at Leuchars; and whether he will take steps to abate the nuisance by limiting the hours of night flying or otherwise?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: My attention has not been drawn to any special complaints in the areas in question, but I appreciate that the considerable amount of night flying which is now necessary in the national interest must cause some disturbance to inhabitants in the vicinity of flying training schools. Every endeavour is made to reduce the inconvenience to the public to a minimum, and I regret that flying training at night cannot be further restricted if the fighting efficiency of the service is to be maintained.
    Mr. J. J. Davidson: Will the same steps be taken by the Minister to abolish or at least reduce night flying in this area as were taken in the London area?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: I have already stated that night flying is being undertaken in the national interest, and we cannot reduce it.

    EQUIPMENT DEPOT, BISHOP'S CLEEVE.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that his decision to establish an equipment depot at Bishop's Cleeve, in the County of Gloucester, means the loss to agriculture of three to four hundred acres of fertile land; and whether he will now reconsider the matter and select instead an alternative site at Quedgeley, not open to this objection, using, if need be, compulsory powers to acquire the land required?
    Mr. C. Wilsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what are the several grounds upon which some of the most fertile land in England is to be taken for a munition depot; and why the site at Quedgeley, Gloucestershire, used during the War for munition purposes, and provided with railway sidings, canal, sewerage, and electricity, is passed over for a site where none of these provisions exist and can only be provided at considerable cost?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: The decision to establish an equipment depot at Bishop's Cleeve was arrived at after careful consideration of the strategic and other requirements involved and after a thorough investigation of a possible alternative site at Quedgeley had been carried out. The land at Quedgeley used during the War for munition purposes would have accommodated only a small part of the depot, and the acquisition of as much (and as valuable) agricultural land, namely, between 250 and 300 acres, would have been involved, as at Bishop's Cleeve. The provision of railways, other communications, and electricity, can be as easily and cheaply provided at Bishop's Cleeve as at Quedgeley. On the other hand, there were objections from landowners at Quedgeley and none at Bishop's Cleeve, and further delay in the provision of adequate storage for new equipment could not be justified.
    Mr. Lipson: Did my hon. and gallant Friend consult the Minister of Agriculture before coming to a decision on this question?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: No, Sir.
    Mr. Leslie Boyce: Will the Department be prepared to receive further representations from the borough councils and also the members of the county council before a final decision is taken?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: Perhaps my hon. Friend will approach me on that subject, but I can hold out no hope at all that the decision will be rescinded.
    Mr. Wilson: Is it in the national interest that some of the best agricultural land in the country should be used for this purpose?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: It is very difficult to avoid taking agricultural land for these things. You have either got to have them in urban centres or in rural districts. If you have them in rural districts, you have to take agricultural land, but we do not seek out the best agricultural land for that purpose.
    Sir Joseph Nall: Was the site selected by officers of the Department or by a firm of estate agents who are constantly breaking up new country?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: I am prepared to take all responsibility for the inspection and selection of the land.
    Sir J. Nall: Will my hon. and gallant Friend say whether it is a fact that this place was selected by officers of the Department or by a firm of estate agents?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: I do not intend to enter into arty detail—[HON. MEMBERS; "Oh!"]—-and the House is not entitled to draw any deductions from it at all. The selection of this particular site was undertaken by responsible people of the Department, and I am prepared to take all the responsibility.
    Sir J. Nall: Does not my hon. and gallant Friend think it rather singular that this particular firm always choose virgin areas of territory, where building developments will follow?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: I do not know anything about the particular firm to which my hon. Friend alludes. I have no responsibility for that firm whatever.
    Sir Percy Harris: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman speaking for himself or for the Secretary of State? Is not the Secretary of State really responsible, and not the Under-Secretary?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: Of course, I am speaking here on behalf of the Secretary of State. It is obvious that I answer questions here on behalf of him and not in my individual capacity.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is not the whole matter very unsatisfactory?
    Mr. Lipson: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg leave to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

  COST OF LIVING.
  Mr. Kirkwoodasked the Prime Minister what further steps he proposes to take to meet the increased cost of living in its relation to the unemployed persons who are dependent on insurance benefits or unemployment assistance allowances, or upon old age, widows' and orphans' pensions; and, in view of the fact that the increased cost of living increases distress and want among these persons who previously had no surplus for food, clothing, heating, and rent, will he give this House an early opportunity of discussing the necessity of increasing all these allowances to avoid a further impairment of their health and well-being?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour has replied recently to a number of questions on the subject of unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance in relation to the cost of living, and has indicated certain action which the Unemployment Assistance Board are taking. I would refer in particular to the replies given by him to the hon. Members for Doncaster (Mr. Short) and Llanelly (Mr. j. Griffiths) on 21st October, and to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) on 28th October. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary has replied to analogous questions as regards pensions, in particular on 28th October, to my hon. Friend the Member for West Leeds (Mr. V. Adams). As regards the last part of the question, in view of the discussion which took place within the last few days in the Debate on the Address and the references to this subject then made by my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I do not think there is
  1770
  any ground for making arrangements for a further discussion.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Is the Prime Minister perfectly satisfied with all the questions he has heard put across the Floor backing up the statement I have made in this question, and is he satisfied that he is doing his job correctly in allowing conditions to remain as they are [HON. MEMBERS: Order! "] On a point of Order. Owing to the reply being so unsatisfactory I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the first available opportunity with the Prime Minister and nobody else.
  Mr. Alexander: May I put a supplementary question?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has given notice to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  Sir Cooper Rawsonasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether, in considering air—raid precautions, attention has been directed to the greater visibility from the air at night of light-coloured roads compared with dark—coloured roads; and whether he will discuss with other Departments of His Majesty's Government the best methods of darkening the surface of arterial roads in case of emergency?
  The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence (Sir Thomas Inskip): The point has not been overlooked in connection with the choice of suitable road materials.
  Sir C. Rawson: May we have the answer repeated in view of the noise up here?
  Mr. Speaker: We cannot have every question repeated. If hon. Members do not remain quiet, I cannot keep them quiet. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Kirkwood: Attention is paid to foreign affairs but not to the poor folk of this country.
  Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member cannot behave himself, I shall ask him to leave the House.
  Mr. Kirkwood: I do not give a damn if you ask me to leave the House or not.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member will withdraw.
  Mr. Kirkwood: I will not withdraw.
  Mr. Speaker: Then I must name the hon. Member for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
  The Prime Minister: I beg to move, "That Mr. Kirkwood be suspended from the service of the House."
  The hon. Member proceeded to withdraw.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member having—
  Mr. Kirkwood (Standing beyond the Bar): Don't "hon. Member" me. Do you think you are going to treat me like a boy? That is what you would like to do. I do not give a damn for you.
  Question put.
  Mr. Attlee: May I ask whether the Prime Minister would withdraw his Motion in view of the fact that the hon. Member has left the House?
  Mr. Speaker: The Prime Minister has moved, and I have put the Question. The right hon. Gentleman must put his question to me seated.
  The House divided: Ayes, 178; Noes, 104.

  Division No. 9.]

  AYES.

  [3.35 p.m.

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. C. A.

  Assheton, R.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Orr-Ewing. I. L.

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Grimston, R. V.

  Patrick, C. M.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W

  Peat, C. U.

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Hannah, I. C.

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Petherick, M.

  Belt, Sir A. L.

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  Pilkington, R.

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

  Porritt, R. W.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Bossom, A. C.

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Herbert, Mater J. A. (Monmouth)

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Bull, B. B.

  Higgs, W. F.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

  Rayner, Major R. H.

  Butler, R. A.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Cary, R. A.

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

  Rothschild, J. A. de

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Keeling, E. H.

  Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

  Channon, H.

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Salt, E. W.

  Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Lewis, O.

  Sandeman, Sir N. S.

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Savery, Sir Servington

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Lipson, D. L.

  Selley, H. R.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Cox, H. B. T.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Shepperson, Sir E. W.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Lyons, A. M.

  Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Dawson, Sir P.

  McKie, J. H.

  Somervell. Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  De la Bère, R.

  Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm 'l'd)

  Duggan, H. J.

  Magnay, T.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Duncan, J. A. L.

  Maitland, A.

  Storey, S.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Mander, G. le M.

  Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Elliston, Capt. G. S

  Markham, S. F.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Emmett, C. E. G. C.

  Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Everard, W. L.

  Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

  Turton, R. H.

  Fleming, E. L.

  Moreing, A. C.

  Wakefield, W. W.

  Furness, S. N.

  Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Ganzoni, Sir J.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Ward, Lieut.—Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Munro, P.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

  Waterhouse. Captain C.

  Watt, G. S. H.

  Withers, Sir J. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

  Wayland, Sir W. A

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Mr. Cross and Captain D

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  NOES.

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

  Noel-Baker, P. J.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Paling, W.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V, (H'lsbr.)

  Hardie, Agnes

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Heyday, A.

  Pethick—Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Ridley, G.

  Batey, J.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Riley, B.

  Benson, G.

  Henderson, T. (Tradoston)

  Ritson, J.

  Bevan, A.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

  Bromfield, W.

  Hopkin, D.

  Sexton. T. M.

  Brown, C. (Mansfield)

  Jagger, J.

  Shinwell, E.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Short, A.

  Burke, W. A.

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Silverman, S. S.

  Cape, T.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Simpson, F. B.

  Cassells, T.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

  Chater, D.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Smith, T. (Nor nanton)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Stephen, C.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

  Lathan, G.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Dagger, G.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Dalton, H.

  Leach, W.

  Thorne, W.

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Lee, F.

  Thurtle, E.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Leonard, W.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Day, H.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Viant, S. P.

  Dobbie, W.

  Logan, D. G.

  Walker, J.

  Dunn. E. (Rother Valley)

  Lunn, W.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Ede, J. C.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  McGovern, J.

  Westwood, J.

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Maclean, N.

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Gallacher, W.

  MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  Gardner, B. W.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Mathers, G.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Messer, F.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Montague, F.

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Griffiths, C. A. (Hemsworth)

  Muff, G.

  Mr. Groves and Mr. Charleton.

  Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, arid agreed to.

  Mr. Batey: On a point of Order. Will the Prime Minister make an explanation of why he moved that suspension after the hon. Member had left the House?
  Mr. Speaker: The House will recollect that I asked the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) to withdraw from the House. He first of all refused, and I had to name him. He then proceeded to walk out. As he was walking out I rose and was prepared to withdraw my naming of him, but he turned round at the Bar and insulted me, and had no other course to pursue than to allow matters to proceed.
  Mr. McEntee: May I point out, Mr. Speaker, that when the hon. Member turned round and insulted you he was actually not in the House.
  Mr. Speaker: I could not allow hon. Members to insult the Chair from beyond the Bar.

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  Mr. Cassells: Arising out of a supplementary question put by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern)
  1774
  yesterday, when he asked whether I was the person who some short time ago requested a Scottish judge to pass a birching Order, I should welcome permission to make a personal statement in explanation. I was the solicitor concerned in the matter. When appearing in Court I was acting in an official capacity and on the express instructions of the mother of the boy concerned. I made the request to the Sheriff on her definite instructions and in her presence. The calling of the case was in public court and at the same time that I made the parent's request to the Court I stated emphatically that it was most distasteful to me, as I was completely opposed to birching in any circumstances. It was also explained to the Court that the request for birching as an alternative punishment to an industrial school was made at the instance of the parents. In view of the facts of the case I submit that the personal attack upon me yesterday was uncalled for, and wholly unjustified.
  Mr. McGovern: As the person who put the supplementary question in the House I want to say that the facts as stated by the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire

  1775
  (Mr. Cassells) I accept, but I myself could not see why the hon. Member should ask the Secretary of State for Scotland in this House to use his powers to put an end to birching when he himself had requested in a Court that the Sheriff —
  Hon. Members: Withdraw.
  Mr. McGovern: No, I certainly will not withdraw. I only want to say that I am quite satisfied that the question I asked was in the public interest and a public duty. I could not see this dual role being played. Therefore, I accept the facts and say that, so far as I am concerned, I am satisfied that I performed that public duty and have nothing to withdraw.

  BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
    MALNUTRITION.
    Mr. Leonard: I beg to give notice that, on this day fortnight, I shall call attention to malnutrition, and move a Resolution.
    CONDITION OF THE PEOPLE.
    Mr. Lee: I beg to give notice that, on this day fortnight, I shall call attention to the Condition of the People, and move a Resolution.
    NATIONAL PARKS.
    Mr. C. Wilson: I beg to give notice that, on this day fortnight, I shall call attention to National Parks, and move a Resolution.
    Mr. Hayday: I beg to give notice that, on this day fortnight, I shall call attention to Pensions, and move a Resolution.
  BILLS PRESENTED.

    COAL BILL,
    "to make provision for the acquisition of the property in all unworked coal and mines of coal and in certain associated minerals, and of certain associated property and rights in land, by a Commission with power of management thereover; for amending the enactments relating to facilities for the working of minerals; for empowering the Commission to promote a reduction in the number of coal-mining undertakings; for continuing Part I of the Coal Mines Act, 1930, and
    1776
    for amending the provisions thereof with respect to committees of investigation; for enabling land to be acquired compulsorily for the purposes of the miners welfare committee; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Stanley; supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Elliot, the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate, and Captain Crookshank; to he read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 43.]

    JOURNALISTS (REGISTRATION) BILL,
    "to provide for the registration of journalists; and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. Bossom; supported by Mr. Baxter, Sir Reginald Clarry, Captain Arthur Evans, Sir Percy Hurd, Mr. Hunter, Mr. Mabane, Mr. Temple Morris, Mr. Harold Nicholson, and Mr. Graham White: to be read a Second time upon Friday, l1th March, and to be printed. [Bill 44.]

MR. RAMSAY MacDONALD.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
Hon. Members in all parts of the House will have learned this morning with a sense of shock of the sudden and unexpected death, last night, on board ship, of Mr. Ramsay MacDonald. The House will desire to pay its last tribute this afternoon to the memory of an ex-Prime Minister, to one who was a Member of this House for nearly the space of a generation, who was for long the leader of the Labour party and in his later years head of the National Government. Assuredly the name and fame of Mr. MacDonald will be associated with the events of 1931, and only two days ago Lord Baldwin paid him a notable tribute in connection with that time. Nevertheless. I do not propose now to dwell upon that phase, for the obvious reason that Mr. MacDonald's action in 1931 aroused controversies the bitterness of which has not yet died away, and this afternoon we shall not desire to dwell upon controversies, but rather upon things on which we can all agree.
It is not for me to enter upon the part which Mr. MacDonald played in the foundation of the Labour party, but when he entered this House in 1906 the man who had spent his early years in a Highland village in poverty and with but few facilities for education, except of an elementary character, had already established a national reputation and had become a political force. I myself first saw him in 1922, when he returned to the House after an absence of four years, and it was some time after that, after he became Prime Minister for the first time, that I ever spoke to him. But, of course, later on I was to serve under hire as a Member of the National Government and our contact became close. It is of the impressions that he made upon me that I would like to speak a little this afternoon.
Mr. MacDonald had great natural gifts—his handsome presence, his agreeable voice, that strong appreciation of duty which he had, whether it were in his own native hills or whether it showed itself in his passion for human art in the realm of pictures, in which he took so much delight. But I think that the strongest impression he made upon my mind was
1802
that of his courage, physical and moral. He showed his moral courage on many occasions, when in pursuance of his convictions he set himself in opposition to his own friends and to public opinion in the country. I admired greatly his fortitude under the affliction of failing eyesight, when he submitted to painful operations and to increasing disabilities without hesitation and without murmuring.
Another characteristic which strongly impressed me was his ability to handle an international gathering, an ability which was all the more remarkable because he spoke no other language than his own, and, as far as I know, he understood very little of any other tongue. It was my privilege to serve under him at two such gatherings—at the Lausanne Conference in 1932 and again at the London Economic Conference in 1933. There he seemed to be completely at home, and I could not but feel astonished at the wide range of his international acquaintance and the easy terms which he seemed to have established with almost all who took part in those conferences. I suppose it could be said with truth that no British statesman of his time had a wider personal knowledge of international figures than Mr. MacDonald. For myself, as a colleague of Mr. MacDonald, I never received anything but kindness and consideration from him, and I can echo the words that were used by Lord Baldwin the other day when he said "He could not wish for a better chief."
His end was one which any of us might envy, but to his family our sympathy goes out in their loss, and especially to that daughter who was accompanying him on what was to have been a happy holiday, and who is now left to perform the last sad offices for her father. Just before he sailed Mr. MacDonald told a reporter that he was going "to seek the most elusive of all forms of happiness—rest." Mr. Speaker, he has found what he went out to seek, and there perhaps we may leave him.
Mr. Attlee: I would like, on behalf of all my friends on these Benches and of myself, to express our sincere sympathy with the family of Mr. MacDonald in the great loss which has suddenly come upon them. I know how close were the bonds

1803
of affection between members of that family, and I recall also at this time the gracious personality of the wife and helpmeet of whom he wrote that famous memorial. This House also has sustained a great loss in the death of one of its most distinguished Members. He was a great Parliamentary figure who had been for the greater part of 30 years prominent in our Debates, a man who held for more than seven years the high office of the first Minister of the Crown.
Since the War, we have seen the passing of five Prime Ministers, and the circumstances of their death have been very different. Lord Rosebery lived on until the task and the contest in which he had been engaged had passed away. The scenes in which he played his part had already become history. Mr. Bonar Law was taken from the world within a few months of relinquishing the Premiership. Mr. MacDonald has been given only a little more than two years of comparative rest since he laid down the burden of the Premiership. He had, so to speak, hardly left the battlefield. It is never very easy, while the controversies in which a man has been engaged are still live issues, to judge fairly either his actions or his character. Strong feelings obscure the judgment; the mists of battle prevent clear vision. This is so especially when there has been a parting of the ways between old associates. The events of the last six years are too near to us to allow a right perspective. The actions of Mr. MacDonald in the year 1931, and afterwards, made a breach between him and Members on this side too deep to be closed. Personal relations of long standing were broken, never to be renewed. Our opinion on those events must necessarily differ from that of hon. Members on the other side, and they must inevitably affect our judgment of the man and the course of his life in the last six years. We can only leave those things to the historians in the future and to their judgment, which may well depend upon the course of history in this country and the world.
For myself, I will follow the example of the Prime Minister in abstaining from any attempt to deal with those years or to assess Mr. MacDonald in those years. I would not like to say anything which might give a wound on this occasion. I would not like to fail in generosity to the
1804
dead or in justice to the living. I would rather turn to the earlier and happier days. Mr. MacDonald started life without any advantages of wealth, influence or position. He had to make his way and earn his living in a hard world. He had to gain a wide education for himself at the same time, and it was due to his determination and his own qualities that he was able to rise to so high a position and to accomplish so much. For nearly 40 years he was one of the chief advocates of the cause of Socialism in this country and he was for many years one of the leading members of the Independent Labour party. He was one of the three or four men most responsible for the creation and development of the Labour party. With his striking personality, great powers of oratory and effective literary style, he spread the gospel of Socialism at a time when its adherents were few and weak, and their opponents strong and, apparently, impregnably entrenched. He added to those other qualities a gift for organisation and for political strategy. For many years he spent himself freely, working at intense pressure. His activities were not confined to domestic circles, and he travelled widely. As the Prime Minister said, he acquired a great knowledge of the personalities on the Continent and the rest of the world. He was a well-known figure abroad before he was prominent here, and his international interests led him to be an ardent advocate of peace.
He endured unpopularity during the War with great fortitude. Perhaps it is some little achievement that, in 1924, when bearing the double burden of Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, he sought to bring appeasement to a distracted world. He will always be remembered for his services on behalf of the workers. On these benches we shall always like to think of him as he was in the fullness of his powers, fighting against odds in the cause in which he believed.
Sir Archibald Sinclair: I rise to associate my hon. Friends and myself with the moving and impressive tributes which have been paid by the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition to the memory of Mr. Ramsay MacDonald. For two long periods in the last 20 years of his public life, Mr. Ramsay MacDonald was the centre of fierce controversy and the object of

1805
ruthless criticism. The merits of those controversies will be judged by posterity, and they do not to-day concern us. Let us now remember only this: that in his public life Mr. Ramsay MacDonald bore himself with dignity, with generosity and understanding towards those who differed from him, and with proud and indomitable courage, which was the more admirable in a man who was by nature so finely sensitive.
One of my most vivid recollections of the short time during which I had the honour of serving under him as Prime Minister is of a morning when, struggling against the infirmity of his sight, but, as the Prime Minister has said, without murmuring and completely absorbed in the business, he worked with us until the last moment, when he had to leave the Cabinet to undergo a delicate and dangerous operation on his eyes. That
1806
was characteristic, for he never spared himself—indeed, he spent himself—in the service of the State and of this House.
He was a great Scotsman who rose by qualities of mind and force of character to high estate, but who remained rooted in the soil of his native parish, in his home in Moray, and in the love of his devoted family, to whom our sympathy flows out this day. So let us unite in saluting the memory of a man whose gifts of leadership and oratory enriched the public life of his generation and who shrank from no sacrifice of effort, popularity, friendship, pain, or health, in the pursuit of his vision and in the service of his country.
Adjourned accordingly at Ten Minutes after Four o'Clock,

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