Sitting of 29 June 1937

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Shoreham Harbour Bill [Lords].

Whitehaven Harbour Bill [Lords].

Bristol Transport Bill [Lords].

Bills to be read a Second time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  COAL INDUSTRY.

    EXPORTS.
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give reasons for the fall in the exports of coal to Spain from 650,110 tons in the first five months of 1935 to 320,697 tons in the same period of this year; whether he can state the tonnage of German coal exported to Spain in the same period; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with the matter?
    The Secretary for Mines (Captain Crookshank): In answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question, I can only usefully point to the present abnormal situation in Spain. The reply to the second part is 12,525 metric tons in 1935 and 154,145 metric tons in 1937; and, to the third part, that all practicable steps are being taken to maintain our export trade to Spain.
    Mr. Griffiths: Does not the increase in the quantity of German coal exported to Spain from 12,000 tons to 150,000 tons in one year indicate clearly that we are likely 10 lose another important market for British coal?
    Mr. Griffithsasked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give reasons for the fall in our exports of coal to Canada from 443,513 tons in the first five months of 1936 to 249,802 tons in the same period of this year; whether he can state the tonnage of exports of coal to Canada from Germany, Indo-China, and Russia in the same period; and what action he proposes to take to protect British exports to the Dominion?
    Captain Crookshank: I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing the latest information available regarding exports of coal to Canada from Germany, Indo-China and Russia, but figures relating to the period since the opening of the St. Lawrence in the middle of April are not yet available. With regard to the first and third parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 22nd June to the hon. Member for Pontypool Mr. Jenkins).
    Mr. Griffiths: In view of the fact that our exports to this market continue to decline year by year, what steps, if any, is the hon. and gallant Gentleman taking to try to protect this very important market?
    Captain Crookshank: I think the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is that it is really impossible to draw inferences so early in the year.
    Mr. Griffiths: In view of the fact that our exports to this market have been continually declining for the last two or three years, and that the present figures show a decline greater than in any previous year, is the hon. and gallant Gentleman taking any steps? Is he in consultation with anyone? The matter is of very serious importance to a large number of people in my constituency.
    Captain Crookshank: I am aware of all the difficulties, but it is now so early in the shipping season, which has a great influence on these figures, that one cannot form any real judgment.
    Following is the statement:
    Exports of Coal to Canada from:—

    January-April, 1936.

    January-April, 1937.

    Metric Tons.

    (a) Germany

    24,505

    40,242

    (b) Russia

    Nil

    12,870

    January-February, 1936.

    January-February, 1937.

    (c) French Indo-China

    Nil

    Nil

    SILICOSIS.
    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Secretary for Mines whether his attention has been called to the discovery by research in Canada of a method of preventing silicosis by the use of certain dust mixtures; and whether he can make any statement on the matter?
    Captain Crookshank: I have as yet no information except short general references in the Press, and until I have received and studied full particulars of these researches, which my Department is obtaining, I am not in a position to make a statement.

    ACCIDENT, OSSETT.
    Mr. Leach (for Mr. Brooke)asked the Secretary for Mines whether he has received a report regarding Mr. Thomas E. Teale, of 34, Audrey Street, Ossett, who died oh 8th June following an accident which occurred at the Hartley Bank Colliery, Ossett, on 22nd May; will he make inquiries as to the cause of the accident; and whether negligence is attributable to any particular person?
    Captain Crookshank: From the inquiries already made and the report I have received, it appears that this regrettable accident happened while Mr. Teale and others were walking out along a mechanical haulage road after they had finished work. The haulage rope was not running when they set out, but it was started and run while they were on their way. The inquest verdict in this case was "death by misadventure." I understand, however, that the manager considered there had been failure to take proper measures to observe the rule which prohibits travelling on this haulage road while the rope is in motion, and that he has taken disciplinary action against the person whom he considered to be chiefly responsible.

  AUSTRALIA (FINANCIAL POLICY).
  Sir Nicholas Grattan-Doyleasked the Secretary of State for Dominion
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  Affairs whether he will notify the Australian Commonwealth Treasurer that the recent successful repatriation by Argentina of her external loans has minimised future exchange-transfer difficulties and strengthened Argentina's credit; and whether he will recommend the repatriation of a portion of London-issued Australian external debt into Australian internal debt, so that it may be more easy for Australia to convert her external debt to cheaper rates of interest?
  The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): The suggestions made by my hon. Friend concern His Majesty's Government in the Commonwealth of Australia. It is no part of my duties to advise that Government as to the financial policy which they should pursue.

  ALBERTA (LOAN DEFAULT).
  Mr. H. G. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs when the Alberta Government first defaulted on its loans, and on what date representations were first made to the Canadian Government on the matter; and what replies have been received from the Canadian Government?
  Mr. M. MacDonald: The Alberta Government first defaulted on its bonds on 1st April, 1936. The first occasion when representations were made to me on behalf of bond-holders in this country was in January of this year, on account of subsequent legislation passed by the Alberta Legislature, and I communicated these representations to the Dominion Government shortly afterwards. I have now received a reply from that Government, and hope to be able to discuss the matter in the near future with the Dominion Minister of Finance.
  Mr. Williams: May I represent to my right hon. Friend in the strongest possible way that, so far as I am aware, this is the first default on the part of any British Government; and will he urge upon the Canadian Government the necessity of preserving the good reputation of the Dominion?
  Mr. Thorne: Does not this indicate that the Green Shirt movement has absolutely failed?
  Mr. McGovern: In view of this default, is it not necessary that we should have another war?
  Mr. Stephen: Is it not rather due to the failure to apply the social services?
  Mr. MacDonald: I should make a great mistake if I were to get involved in Albertan politics.

  SOUTH AFRICA (NATIVE LABOUR RECRUITMENT).
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether there are any difficulties in the Colony of Southern Rhodesia for the ratification of the International Labour Office Convention on the Recruitment of Native Labour; how soon can this convention be ratified so far as it relates to the British protectorates, and whether any reservations or modifications are called for; and what is the policy of the Government to the Union of South Africa as far as recruitment in the protectorates is concerned?
  Mr. M. MacDonald: I have been informed by the Government of Southern Rhodesia that they are prepared to accept the obligations of the Convention without modification. The question of the terms on which the Convention can be applied to the High Commission Territories in South Africa is still under consideration in consultation with the authorities concerned in the Union of South Africa.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to speed up the consideration of this matter, seeing that it has been under consideration for so long?
  Mr. MacDonald: The matter is receiving very careful and active consideration now, and I do not think that any further speeding up is required.
  Mr. Lunn: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question?
  Mr. MacDonald: The last part is really involved in the last part of the answer I have given. The whole question of recruitment, so far as it is related to the Convention, is now under consideration with the authorities in the Union, and, pending the completion of that examination, it would be impossible to make any statement.

  EMPIRE SETTLEMENT (VICTORIA).
  Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs particulars of the latest reports received on the position of British settlers in Victoria who proceeded to that territory under the Overseas Settlement Act; and whether his reports show that any of the British settlers are still compelled to obtain relief from charitable sources?
  Mr. M. MacDonald: As stated in the reply given to the hon. Member on 2nd February, the majority of the settlers referred to have re-established themselves in various ways. There has been no occasion, therefore, to call for regular reports, but I have been kept informed from time to time of the position of these settlers in Australia, and I am advised that there is no evidence that any of them are compelled to obtain relief from charitable sources.
  Mr. Day: Do the Government of Victoria take responsibility for these people, and grant them a small subsistence allowance?
  Mr. MacDonald: I am afraid I should require notice of any question as to the actual details of the way in which they help them at the present time.

  COMPULSORY INSURANCE (DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE).
  Sir N. Grattan-Doyleasked the President of the Board of Trade for what period the Departmental Committee on Compulsory Insurance has been in existence; on how many occasions it has sat to take evidence; whether it has completed its investigations; and whether he has any information as to the date of the submission of its report?
  The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley): The Departmental Committee on Compulsory Insurance was appointed on 6th February, 1936. It has met to take evidence on 18 occasions. I understand that the committee have completed their investigations, and are considering their report.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY.
    Colonel Baldwin-Webbasked the President of the Board of Trade

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    (1) whether he is aware of the difficulties of Messrs. Fisher and Ludlow, Limited, Birmingham, and others engaged in the motor trade, whose chief raw material consists of steel sheets, in obtaining adequate supplies; that this firm employs 3,000 people, and that as a result of the shortage some departments have been on short time since Whitsuntide and others have been closed altogether for two days during last week; and whether he will endeavour to arrange that the position is remedied;
    (2) whether, in view of the continuing difficulty of securing sheets in the iron and steel industry and with a full indication that the large manufacturers can secure the sheets if the quota and duty position is adjusted and so keep essential products in course of manufacture, he will suspend the quota position and duty in a manner which will leave the market with absolute freedom until such date as the Iron and Steel Federation can give supply of the material and quality necessary for our finished products.
    Mr. Stanley: I am aware of the difficulties experienced by the firms to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers in obtaining supplies of steel. I am informed that the Import Duties Advisory Committee are actively considering what steps can usefully be taken to increase imports of iron and steel, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement on the matter.
    Colonel Baldwin-Webb: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his answer, may I ask him when he expects to receive the report of the Committee?
    Mr. Stanley: I could not say definitely, but I know that they are well aware of the urgency of the matter.
    Colonel Baldwin-Webb: Shall we have the report within the next week or 10 days?
    Mr. Stanley: I could not say.
    Mr. Thorne: Does it not seem ridiculous that we should be exporting steel and pig iron when there is a shortage in this country?

    INTERNATIONAL TRADE.
    Mr. Leonardasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention
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    has been drawn to the recent official statement by the French Minister of Commerce deploring the lack of response from other governments to the French reduction of tariffs and quotas and urging that without some such response the French Government would not be able to maintain its position; and whether he gave any assurance to the French Government that efforts to respond to this gesture would be made by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Stanley: I have seen reports in the Press of the statement referred to. His Majesty's Government have throughout taken such action as they could to secure that the Tripartite Currency Declaration of September last should be followed by definite steps to promote international trade. To this end they and the French Government have been associated in the invitation which was accepted by the Prime Minister of Belgium to undertake informal inquiries into the possibility of secure a general relaxation of trade barriers.

    SCANDINAVIA.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the President of the Board of Trade whether fresh negotiations are likely to take place in the immediate future respecting greater freedom of trade between this country and the Scandinavian countries?
    Mr. Stanley: No arrangements have been made for trade negotiations with the Scandinavian countries.
    Mr. Sorensen: Are we to understand from that, that representations have been received from commercial quarters respecting trade between this country and Denmark?
    Mr. Stanley: That is an entirely different question.
    Mr. Sorensen: But Denmark is a Scandinavian country.

    RUSSIA.
    Sir John Wardlaw-Milneasked the President of the Board of Trade on what date the credit for ila,000,000 granted to the Soviet Government expires; whether any proposals have been made for renewal of the same; and, if so, on what conditions?
    Mr. Stanley: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on 22nd June to the hon. Member for Kensington, South (Sir W. Davison).

    AIRCRAFT ENGINES AND WAR MATERIAL (EXPORT).
    Mr. Garro Jonesasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any control is exercised over subsequent disposal by the direct consignees of aircraft aero-engines and of new and second-hand munitions of war exported under licence, or whether any control is exercised over the output of companies associated with British companies and manufacturing in foreign countries such aircraft aeroengines or munitions of war?
    Mr. Stanley: It would be impossible for His Majesty's Government to control the eventual disposal of all aircraft and aircraft engines exported from the United Kingdom. In the case of war material, however, the general practice of His Majesty's Government is to confine the issue of export licences to material consigned to Governments or to accredited agents of Governments for delivery to them. The question of control over exports from foreign countries is a matter for the Governments of the foreign countries concerned.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is it the case that high-powered aircraft engines are being exported to foreign countries with no safeguard whatever in regard to their ultimate destination?
    Mr. Stanley: Except in so far as design is concerned that does not seem to matter much. As regards the question of secrecy, that is a matter for the Air Ministry who, I believe, are perfectly satisfied as to their capacity to keep our own secrets.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is the conclusion to be drawn that these high-powered aircraft engines are being manufactured in this country and exported not only to friendly countries but in some cases to potential enemies?
    Mr. Stanley: If the hon. Member will indicate the type of engine he has in mind, I will make inquiries.
    Mr. Lawson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister for the Coordination of Defence recently told us of the difficulties in the supply of these engines?

  INDUSTRIAL SURVEYS.
  Mr. Dayasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government
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  propose to commence a further industrial survey of the depressed areas; and what machinery the Government propose to utilise for such survey?
  Mr. Stanley: The industrial surveys of the regions of heavy unemployment made for the Board of Trade in 1932 have recently been supplemented, in the case of the North East Coast, South Wales and Lancashire, by further investigations under the auspices of the regional development organisations. A new survey is now proceeding in Scotland, and one is being arranged for Cumberland. In appropriate cases this work has been and is being aided by grants from the Commissioners for the Special Areas.
  Mr. Day: Is it intended to make a survey of basic industries in the distressed areas?
  Mr. Lawson: Will the Board of Trade receive the results of the surveys, and will they receive serious consideration with a view to making arrangements?
  Mr. Stanley: Everything that we receive receives serious consideration.
  Mr. Lawson: Will the surveys be sent to the Board of Trade?
  Mr. Stanley: We shall certainly obtain copies of them.

  SPAIN.
  Mr. Marcus Samuelasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the ships which brought the refugee children from Bilbao carried any gold or securities as part of their cargo from Spain?
  Mr. Stanley: I am advised that the "Habana," which brought the refugee children from Bilbao, landed no mails or cargo of any kind in this country.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what communication was made to the German Government recently as to the action that would be taken by the British Government in the event of the former attacking Spanish Government ships or blockading or bombarding Spanish towns?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Viscount Cranborne): I have nothing to add to the statements made by my right hon. Friend with regard to the "Leipzig" incident.
  Mr. Mander: Can the Noble Lord say whether there is any foundation for the statement that the German Government were informed that aggressive action of that kind will not be tolerated?
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
  Mr. Manderto ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any investigation has taken place into the possibility of dummy torpedoes having been fired at the "Leipzig" by German submarines?
  Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croft: On a point of Order. May I ask whether this question has been withdrawn or postponed?
  Mr. Speaker: My information was that it was withdrawn.
  Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether His Majesty 's warships are now advising British foodships and other cargo vessels not to enter the port of Santander, and if so, what is the reason for this advice?
  The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Duff Cooper): In the course of last week information was received by the naval authorities on the north coast of Spain that a close blockade of Santander was contemplated. As the institution of such a blockade might have involved serious dangers for British ships attempting to enter or leave Santander, it was considered advisable to warn them not to enter the port until the situation had become clearer. Yesterday it became evident that the Spanish insurgents were not intending for the time being to blockade Santander, and the advice given to British merchant ships was accordingly altered to conform with that previously given, as explained to the House by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his speech on 20th April, namely, that entry into Santander involves a degree of risk which may vary from day to day.
  Mr. Attlee: May I ask whether this is not just a repetition of what occurred at Bilbao in which a British paper blockade was put on on the word of the insurgents; and when on the word of British naval officers there was no danger in Bilbao?
  Mr. Cooper: I do not agree with the interpretation put upon it by the right hon.
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  Gentleman. It is the duty of the officers who are in charge of the obligation of providing for the safety of British ships to act on such information as they receive from time to time, at the time that they receive it.
  Mr. Attlee: May I ask what steps are taken by these officers to confirm this information, and whether they act merely on the word given to them by rebel commanders?
  Mr. Cooper: They take every step possible to verify the information and to make the instructions which they give to British ships conform to the information that is available. If they err in one or other direction they think it wise—and the Government support them in their view—to err on the side of caution.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Have His Majesty's officers on the spot furnished the right hon. Gentleman with evidence that General Franco has sufficient ships to establish a close blockade of Santander?
  Mr. Cooper: There was no time to furnish full evidence, but, according to the information in possession of the Admiralty—all of it is not confirmed—it would be much easier to establish a blockade of Santander than of Bilbao, owing to the fact that there are not the same land defences.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: If there was no evidence of an effective blockade, on what basis was the advice given?
  Mr. De la Bère: Will the right hon. Gentleman understand that England comes first?
  Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's ships are now offering naval protection to British, Spanish and other ships engaged in evacuating refugees from Santander, and, if not, what are the reasons for which that protection has been refused?
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): As explained in the answers of the Prime Minister to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) on Tuesday last, the grant of protection by His Majesty's Navy to refugee ships proceeding from the north coast of Spain to French ports must be governed by the

  1777
  willingness of the French Government to receive such refugees. His Majesty's Government have been in communication with the French Government with regard to this point, and understand that they agree in principle both to receive further refugees in France and to transmit them through French territory to Barcelona and Valencia. At the same time, they make it clear that permission to land in France must be dependent on the setting up of some adequate system of control, so as to ensure that the refugees are limited to women and children. As the Prime Minister explained in the House, His Majesty's Government had envisaged some system of joint control at the ports of arrival. I have, however, to-day heard from the French Government that they have alternative proposals to put forward. His Majesty's Government are at present awaiting these proposals, which have been promised at the earliest possible moment.
  Mr. Attlee: Is this matter not urgent in view of the reports we have had of the conditions in Santander? May I also ask whether we did not understand from the Prime Minister last week that action will be taken immediately? Now a week has gone by and nothing has been done; it is still being considered. What steps are the Government taking to try to carry out this humane task?
  Mr. Eden: We understand the urgency of the matter, but this is a matter which concerns not only us but the French Government also and they are submitting to us particular proposals. I really must await the receipt of them which, I hope, will be in the next 24 hours.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: Do the records of the Foreign Office give any account of the assistance given by Spain to the evacuation of Frenchmen from Paris when it was beseiged by the Germans in 1870?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: May I ask whether it is not a fact that many of those who were over-hastily evacuated from Bilbao do not now regret what happened? Is not the same thing likely to happen in the case of Santander?
  Miss Rathbone: On the question of control, whether they are refugees or not, is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the French have a representative in Santander, that there is a British vice-consul in Santander, and that every one
  1778
  of the five British ships which have been waiting for a week to take refugees out of Santander has upon it one or two observers—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady must not really make a speech.
  Miss Rathbone: The question is whether there are means at Santander for seeing whether the people are genuine refugees. I am asking whether it is not true that there are observers already on every one of these ships?
  Mr. Attlee: Will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to give further information on this point to-morrow, if I put down another question?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. I will certainly do my utmost to do so. I was in conversation with the French Ambassador last night; but I must say to the hon. Lady that what measure of verification there may be by a French officer at Santander is a matter which must be left to the French Government.

  SHARE PUSHING (COMMITTEE'S REPORT).
  Mr. T. Johnstonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now say when the report of the Committee on Share Pushing, presided over by Sir Archibald Bodkin, is expected to be published?
  Mr. Stanley: I understand that the committee have concluded the hearing of evidence, and are now considering their report; but I am not in a position to say when it will be available.
  Mr. Johnston: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very serious consequences that have followed from the long delay in arming the authorities with power to deal with these frauds?
  Mr. Stanley: Yes, Sir; but I am also aware that this is an extremely complicated subject, and, when we have the report, it is better that it should be a report which has been well rather than ill considered.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    PAY ADVANCES.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that

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    a new ruling is being operated among troops at Aldershot whereby advances of pay cannot be drawn unless the soldier leaves a minimum sum of £2 10s. to his credit in the hands of the authorities; and whether, in view of the hardship caused thereby, he will cause it to be rescinded?
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): No new order or ruling has been made by Aldershot Command dealing with advances of pay. Under the Royal Warrant for Pay a man is entitled to a month's advance, and a noncommissioned officer to two months' advance of pay, at the discretion of his company commander, when proceeding on furlough.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I got a letter from a friend of my own in the Guards who has been refused an advance until £2 10s. is lying to his credit in the hands of the authorities?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I am sorry the hon. Member's friends are so misinformed.

    RECRUITMENT.
    Captain Macnamaraasked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether he will state any steps he is taking to make up the deficiencies of men in the Regular Army?
    (2) whether he will state any steps he is taking to make up the deficiencies of men in the Territorial Army?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The answer to these questions is that I will send my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of an answer given on 17th June to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle).

    GUARDSMEN'S TUNICS (DAMAGE).
    Sir Frank Sandersonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered the facts regarding guardsmen's tunics which were seriously damaged by heavy rain during the Coronation parade; and whether he can announce his decision?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Yes, Sir. I have now received and considered the reports on this matter. Compensation will be given to guardsmen in respect of the damage suffered by their tunics. Credit is being given forthwith to the men in their current account.
    Sir F. Sanderson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his answer will give satisfaction not only to the guardsmen but to a section of the general public who have taken an interest in the matter?
    Mr. Thurtle: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider changing the nature of the guards uniform so that it may be less liable to damage?

  SCOTLAND.

    PUBLIC VETERINARY SERVICES.
    Mr. Westwoodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that no reference is made in the memorandum attached to the Financial Resolution on Agriculture, nor yet in the proposals submitted by letter of date 29th May, 1937, to Scottish local authorities, as to where the central body is to be located to deal with Scottish veterinary services; and will he now state whether that central body will be located in Edinburgh or London?
    Mr. Cassellsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the light of the circular issued by the National Farmers' Union of Scotland on 14th June, 1937, he is prepared to inaugurate a central veterinary service in order to create greater uniformity in the application of the services at present administered by local authorities in the treatment of diseases now prevalent amongst sheep, poultry and horses?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Elliot): If the hon. Members will look at paragraph (36) of the memorandum to which they refer they will see that it is proposed that all public veterinary services relating to animal diseases should be centralised under the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries.
    Mr. Westwood: Were these points discussed with the local authorities when the proposals were submitted for their consideration?
    Mr. Elliot: They have been discussed with the local authorities, but I am not sure on what occasion.
    Mr. Westwood: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the representatives of the local authorities in London to-day are complaining about the haste in pursuing this Resolution and not carrying through necessary negotiations with the local authorities?
    Mr. Elliot: I think that is another point. They have certainly been informed of the intentions of the Government.

    HOUSING.
    Mr. Stephenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of rent rebates under Section 47 (5) of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1935, granted by the Corporation of Glasgow to tenants in the housing scheme; the total amount of rent abatement; and the highest and lowest amounts so granted?
    Mr. Elliot: I am informed that the corporation have as yet granted no rebates from rent.
    Mr. Stephen: Will the right hon. Gentleman draw their attention to these provisions, in view of the fact that many people are doubtful about taking houses because of their pecuniary circumstances?
    Mr. Elliot: I understand that the regulations have been submitted to the housing committee of the corporation. If no action is taken, I shall certainly draw the attention of the corporation.
    Mr. Westwood: Is it not possible to introduce an Amendment to make the "may" "shall"?
    Mr. Stephenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the cost and size of the houses built by housing authorities in Scotland which have been let at a rent of 5s. a week or under, and the cost of houses of a corresponding size built by the Glasgow Corporation and Edinburgh Corporation, respectively, and the rents which are being charged for such by those authorities?
    Mr. Elliot: I regret that the information asked for is not available. I do not feel that I would be justified in asking local authorities to undertake the labour which its compilation would entail.
    Mr. Stephen: Could not the right hon. Gentleman give us some instances with regard to these houses? The figures are very important.
    Mr. Elliot: I shall be prepared to go over the details, which need to be ascertained, with the hon. Member. I think he will agree that it would involve a great deal of investigation.
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware
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    that, arising out of the increased cost of building materials, certain local authorities have suspended building programmes; that rents in many areas are rising; that suffering and overcrowding is being caused thereby; and will he call a conference in Edinburgh of Scottish Members of Parliament with representatives of the principal burghs and county councils for the purpose of discussing ways and means to overcome the housing crisis?
    Mr. Elliot: I am aware that certain local authorities have decided not to proceed meantime with proposed building schemes owing to high costs which, however, are only partly attributable to the rise in the price of materials. The fixing of rents for State-assisted houses is in the hands of the local authorities and I have no complete information as to the rents charged. Any recent alterations in rent charges either upwards or downwards are mainly due to the review of rents provided for by Section 47 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1935. In view of the full statement I made on the present housing situation on 24th June, and the fact that I and my officers are in constant touch with the representative associations of local authorities in regard to the whole question, I doubt whether any useful purpose would be served by the further conference proposed.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the strong feeling that exists in connection with overcrowding and bad housing conditions, and the still stronger feeling that some discussion of the matter should take place, and will he not seriously consider the question of a conference of some kind?
    Mr. Elliot: I am continually having conferences of some kind or another. I do not think a general conference would forward the object we all have at heart.
    Mr. Westwood: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, since he made his statement, the four large cities of Scotland have had a conference and have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to proceed with housing unless an increased subsidy can he provided to meet the increase in cost?
    Mr. Elliot: This was fully discussed on the Estimates. I cannot add to the statement that I made then.
    Mr. Stephenasked the Minister of Labour the number of bricklayers employed on private building work other than housing in the city of Glasgow, and the number employed on the housing schemes of the Glasgow Corporation?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Butler): As regards the first part of the question, I regret that statistics giving the desired information are not available. With regard to the second part of the question, I am informed by my righ hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, that at 25th June. 1937, there were 297 bricklayers and ho apprentices in employment on the Glasgow housing scheme.
    Mr. Stephen: In view of the great shortage of labour for housing schemes, will the Minister try to find out the proportion that is being employed on private buildings other than housing?
    Mr. Butler: I am unable to see how we could ascertain the exact numbers employed by private contractors.
    Mr. Mathers (for Mr. Cassells)asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that, owing to the rising costs and the lack of an available supply of labour, house-building in the County of Dumbarton, although urgently required, will be materially delayed; and is he prepared to take steps to control prices and also to increase housing grants?
    Mr. Elliot: I am aware of the difficulties which are causing delay in the progress of housing schemes in the County of Dunbarton. My officers have been in touch with representatives of the county council and everything possible is being done in order to assist progress. With regard to the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the full statement I made regarding the present housing situation in the course of the Debate on 24th June.

    AGRICULTURAL WORKERS.
    Mr. Watsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the conditions on a farm in Fife, where the farm servant and his family were housed in a stable and harness room and where the wages paid were 15s. per week; and whether he has taken any steps to remedy that state of matters?
    Mr. Elliot: The case referred to has not been brought to my notice, but, if the hon. Member will send me particulars, I will look into the accommodation question. With regard to the wages aspect of the case, there is at present no statutory regulation of agricultural workers' wages in Scotland, but proposals to establish such regulation are contained in the Bill now before the House.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Is it not possible to enforce living conditions for agricultural workers, seeing that the Government subsidises agriculture in Scotland as well as in England, and does the right hon. Gentleman think 15s. a week is a living wage for country servants?
    Mr. Elliot: No, Sir. I hope for the hon. Member's support of the Bill.

    SHERIFFS AND SHERIFFS-SUBSTITUTE (SALARIES).
    Mr. Erskine Hillasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is in a position to make a statement regarding the proposed increase in the salaries of sheriffs and sheriffs-substitute in Scotland?
    Mr. Elliot: I am not yet in a position to say more than that I hope shortly to communicate with the Sheriffs and with the Association of Sheriffs-Substitute on this subject.

    POULTRY INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the policy of the Government to meet the needs of the poultry industry?
    Mr. Elliot: No, Sir; I am not in a position to make any statement on this subject.
    Mr. Mathers: In view of the long time this matter has been under consideration, may we expect some definite statement before the Recess?

    VILLAGE STAGE PERFORMANCES (LICENCES).
    Major Neven-Spenceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered representations made on behalf of the Scottish women's rural institutes and others interested in the revival of rural drama, on the subject of the cost of temporary licences for stage performances in village halls; and whether, in

    1785
    view of the great disparity in the cost of such licences in England and Scotland, he will take steps to have the fee in Scotland reduced?
    Mr. Elliot: I have considered representations of the nature referred to, in consultation with my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate. An Act of Sederunt made on his application by the Court of Session on the 15th instant provides that where application is made for the grant of a theatre licence for a period not exceeding six consecutive days the total fee payable in respect of the application and grant and of the relative bond of caution shall be one shilling, subject, however, to a temporary increase of 50 per cent, under existing Acts of Sederunt.

  EDUCATION.

    DIETETICS (INSTRUCTION).
    Mr. Hepworthasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education what steps are taken to teach practical dietetics in schools, with special reference to the value of body building foods?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay): Cookery is a regular subject in the education of the older girls in public elementary schools; and the curriculum generally includes such instruction and training in the principles of proper dieting and their application as are suitable for girls at the age of 12–14 years. Some 90 per cent. of all the older girls attending the elementary schools, and rather more than 80 per cent. of the girls educated in secondary schools, are attending schools in which such instruction is provided.
    Mr. Paling: What steps are taken to provide body building, particularly in cases where children in schools needing milk cannot get it?
    Mr. Lindsay: That is another question.

  PHYSICAL TRAINING SCHEME (PRESS ADVERTISING).
  Sir N. Grattan-Doyleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether it is proposed to make use of Press advertising in connection with
  1786
  the publicity campaign which is to be started in the autumn with reference to the Government's scheme of physical training; and whether suggestions will be invited from firms of advertising agents?
  Mr. Lindsay: I understand that consideration has already been given by the National Advisory Council to the use of Press advertising as one of the means of publicity for the Government's scheme of physical training and recreation. Generally speaking, this form of publicity, if it is to be effective, would need to be on a large scale and continuous over a period of time; and, having regard to the other available means of publicity, the Council are doubtful at this stage whether the comparatively large expense would be justified. They will, however, continue to examine the possibilities; and, if it is decided to make use of this form of advertising, they will take steps to obtain suitable expert advice.
  Sir N. Grattan-Doyle: In this connection will my hon. Friend bear in mind the powerful influence of the provincial Press as distinct from the national Press?
  Mr. Lindsay: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. J. J. Davidson: As this question is of national importance, will the Press be asked to give special terms with regard to advertising?
  Mr. Lindsay: We have not decided to use them in this way yet.

  WAGES.
  Mr. Hepworthasked the Minister of Labour the increases of wages which have come into force since the beginning of the year, giving the class of worker affected and the approximate advantage in each case?
  Mr. Butler: A summary of the changes in rates of wages reported to my Department during the first five months of the year, with separate figures for various industry groups, is given on page 236 of June issue of the Ministry of Labour Gazette. Fuller details will be found in the last five issues of the Gazette.
  Mr. Paling: Will the hon. Gentleman also give another list showing where these increases of wages have been more than wiped out by the increase in the cost of living?

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    SPECIAL AREAS (NEW INDUSTRIES).
    Mr. W. Joseph Stewartasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the percentage of insured unemployed persons in Sunderland is 24.8, South Shields 27.9, and in the Boldon area 24.2; and what steps, if any, are being taken by the Government to introduce new industries into these areas with a view to providing employment?
    Mr. Butler: As the hon. Member is aware, the general provisions of the Special Areas (Amendment) Act, 1937, are designed to promote the industrial development of the Special Areas by offering substantial inducements to new industrial undertakings in those areas.
    Mr. Stewart: Is it the intention of the Government to establish a trading estate in that area with a view to introducing new industries, so as to find work for the large nurnbers of unemployed in that particular area?
    Mr. Butler: I know that the Commissioner has the needs of that area in mind.
    Mr. Stewart: Is it the intention of the Government to set up a trading estate?
    Mr. Butler: That raises a separate question which I would be grateful if the hon. Member would put down.
    Mr. Lawson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is practically a new area opening out at Peterborough; and what steps are the Government taking to control these factories in order that industries may be sent to the distressed areas?
    Mr. Ede: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether his Department is drawing the attention of new firms to the magnificent water frontage available on the Tyne recently acquired by the South Shields Corporation for development in this area?
    Mr. Butler: The Government have always these matters in mind, and I can assure the hon. Member that these areas will have every consideration.

    VACANCIES (AGRICULTURAL WORKERS).
    Sir Edmund Brocklebank (for Colonel Ropner)asked the Minister of Labour whether he can give an indication of the extent to which Employ-
    1788
    ment Exchanges cannot meet the need of farmers for agricultural labourers?
    Mr. Butler: Temporary local shortages of agricultural workers occur in most areas during peak periods of seasonal employment, but my information is that the number of vacancies filled this year by the Employment Exchanges exceeds the number for the corresponding period of last year. The Employment Exchanges take every opportunity of bringing the agricultural vacancies notified to them to the notice of suitable persons who are available, and where the number of local applicants is insufficient to meet employers' requirements, the vacancies are brought to the notice of persons in other districts.
    Mr. Leach: Is the hon. Member not aware that there is only one cause for the shortage of agricultural labourers; and that is the question of wages?

  FOREIGN LOANS.
  Mr. Liddallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in view of the embargo upon foreign lending in London and as many would-be foreign borrowers are uncreditworthy, His Majesty's Government will, in order to distribute unwanted gold and to stimulate international trade, grant, jointly with the United States Government, gold loans at low rates of interest to uncreditworthy foreign borrowers in return for trade advantages, and, at the same time, provide that losses arising from defaults by the borrowers may fall upon the taxpayers of the two nations which will have reaped the trade advantages and not, as in the past, upon private investors?
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): The answer is in the negative.
  Mr. Liddell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House his objections to attempting to carry out the suggestion?
  Sir J. Simon: My hon. Friend, I know, will recollect the answers that have previously been given on this subject, and I think he will agree that the making of loans to uncreditworthy borrowers is not a process from which good will result.
  Mr. Jagger: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am a most uncreditworthy borrower, and therefore there is no need to go abroad to look for one?

  RACING, IRELAND (KING'S PLATE).
  Mr. Dayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer particulars of the total amount that has been voted by this House for the King's Plate for racing in Ireland?
  Sir J. Simon: The sum of £1,563 was voted annually from 1831 to 1935 inclusive. The total amount voted was, therefore, £164,115. From 1936 the charge was transferred from Votes to the Civil List in accordance with paragraph 18 of the Report of the Select Committee on the Civil List.
  Mr. Day: Is it the intention of the Government to make any further contribution to racing in the Irish Free State?
  Sir J. Simon: I think that the present arrangement works very well.
  Mr. Bellenger: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, as a quid pro quo for the granting of this money, he will give those hon. Members who so desire it the opportunity of receiving confidential information in advance of the event.

  BRITISH MUSEUM (READING ROOM).
  Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the extension of the hours during which the British Museum reading room is open to readers to the period which was in force before the War has been re-considered recently; what would be the estimated cost of such an extension; and whether, in view of the importance of allowing the fullest facility to readers, the reading room may again be allowed to remain open after 6 p.m.?
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut.-Colonel Colville): The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The cost of the suggested extension of the hours during which the reading room is open is estimated at £2,750 a year. The trustees of the Museum have no evidence of any such demand for the extension as would justify this expenditure.
  Mr. Harvey: Can the Financial Secretary secure the serious consideration of this matter by the trustees in view of the great help it would be to many scholars who cannot go at an earlier hour?
  Lieut.-Colonel Colville: I have noted what the hon. Member has said.
  Mr. Johnston: When the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is communicating with the trustees, will he also draw their attention to the desirability of opening this reading room on Sundays?

  CIVIL SERVANTS (SUPERANNUATION).
  Mr. Lawsonasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the Government have, in the Local Government Superannuation Bill now before the House, accepted the principle of conferring superannuation benefits on temporary whole-time officers, the Government will apply the same principle to the Civil Service and other temporary State employés?
  Lieut.-Colonel Colville: The Bill in question applies only to a minority of employés of local authorities. In the interests of interchangeability and mobility of these staffs, the Bill is intended to secure, so far as this minority is concerned, the uniform application of contributory pension schemes by many hundreds of different authorities. This consideration prevents a distinction being drawn between temporary and permanent officers in the service of local authorities, but the inclusion of certain temporary officers on that account is no reason for modifying the State system, which is noncontributory and differs in many other respects from the local government system.
  Mr. Stephen: Will the Financial Secretary consider allowing civil servants to reckon for pension purposes the temporary services which they gave before they were made permanent employés?
  Lieut.-Colonel Colville: The hon. Member is dealing with a different question from the one to which I have replied.

  HORSES (EXPORT).
  Mr. Perkinsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether

  1791
  he is aware that an organisation known as the International League to Prevent the Export of Horses for Butchery were collecting money at the Olympia Horse Show on the evening of 18th June; and whether he proposes to make inquiries with a view to deciding whether proceedings should be instituted against this organisation or steps taken to prevent them collecting any more money from the public?
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): My right hon. Friend has ascertained that no breach of the law was committed by the promoters of the collection concerned. He has no power to impose a prohibition of the nature suggested.
  Mr. Perkins: Can my hon. Friend give an assurance:hat in future he will cause a very close watch to be kept on the activities of this society with the object of preventing them from extracting money from the public as soon as the Exportation of Horses Bill has received the Royal Assent?

  AGRICULTURE.

    POTATOES (POWER ALCOHOL).
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the proposals for using surplus potatoes for the manufacture of power alcohol; and whether he will have inquiries made as to whether such an outlet could be developed so that, if it were considered desirable to maintain a bigger acreage under potatoes, the market for human consumption would not be overloaded in years of heavy production?
    The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Ramsbotham): I have been asked to reply. I am not aware of the particular proposals to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, but I understand that the Potato Marketing Board, after careful inquiries, have come to the conclusion that the production of alcohol would not be a profitable outlet for surplus potatoes.

    POULTRY INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Mathers (for Mr. Cassells)asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps. if any, he intends taking, and, if so, when, to eradicate the present perilous position of the poultry industry?
    Mr. Ramsbotham: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) on 25th May.
    Mr. Mathers: Will the hon. Member put his right hon. Friend in touch with the Secretary of State for Scotland in order that a statement on this subject may be made before the Recess? May I ask him whether such a statement will be made?

  WIDOWS' PENSIONS.
  Mr. Bateyasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a widow living in Spennymoor has been refused a widow's pension, whose husband joined the National Health Insurance in July, 1912, was seriously injured down a coal mine in May, 1914, and has been unable to work since, and died in January, 1937; and whether he will inquire into this case with a view to a pension being granted?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernays): I am aware of the facts of this case and as my right hon. Friend has already informed the hon. Member, the statutory conditions for the award of a widow's pension were not satisfied. I regret, therefore, that there is no possibility of a pension being granted.
  Mr. Batey: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this man was injured in the spine by a fall of stone down a coal mine before all the payments had been made; has not a mistake been made in deciding this case under the 1925 Act instead of the 1929 Amending Act, because under the 1929 Act widows whose husbands made no payment whatever are paid a pension; and as it was not possible for this man to make all the payments, will be reconsider the case?
  Mr. Bernays: This matter was thoroughly investigated, and I appreciate that it is a very hard case, but it was open to the husband to pay up the back contributions as he had a right to do. He did not exercise that right.
  Mr. Logan: In view of the statement that has been made, is it not possible to pay up the sickness contributions due in order to qualify? Is it not possible to accept the remaining sums? There are only eight stamps to be added in order to

  1793
  qualify, and there would then be in regard to sickness benefit.
  Mr. Batey: In view of the most unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the first opportunity.

  HOUSING (COMMUNITY CENTRES).
  Mr. Harveyasked the Minister of Health whether, in sanctioning loans or granting assistance to local authorities in connection with the provision of community centres for housing estates, he will endeavour in all cases to secure that such centres shall be so constructed as to provide adequate opportunities for the development of educational and cultural activities, including smaller rooms available for use apart from the use of the main hall?
  Mr. Bernays: In dealing with applications for loan sanctions it is the practice of my Department wherever practicable to urge local authorities to include accommodation of the kind to which the hon. Member refers. I will send him a copy of a report of a committee appointed by the Board of Education which the board and my Department have commended to the consideration of local authorities.

  WATER SUPPLY, PLOUGHLEY RURAL DISTRICT.
  Sir Gifford Foxasked the Minister of Health whether he has yet received any request from the Ploughley Rural District Council that an expert should be sent to investigate the pollution of the water supply at Upper Weston-on-the-Green; and what action should be taken in the interests of public health in that area?
  Mr. Bernays: Yes, Sir. The request was made some months ago, and the matters in issue were fully discussed between representatives of the council and officers of my Department, but it did not appear that the case was one in which any useful purpose could be served by such a visit. The matter in dispute is one which can be settled only by the courts, and is open either to the person aggrieved or to the local authority to take action, but my right hon. Friend understands that the local authority are not satisfied that the complaint can be substantiated.

  COLONIAL PRODUCTS (MARKETING).
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is able to make a statement with reference to the new proposals for establishing a marketing board for the Colonial Empire?
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made on 6th May in reply to the hon. Baronet the Member for Henley (Sir G. Fox). I am not yet in a position to add anything to that statement.
  Mr. Mander: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the matter will be brought before the House for the necessary finance?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: There will have to be a Supplementary Estimate introduced before the board can come into existence.
  Mr. Mander: Will it be introduced before the House adjourns?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am not sure.

  GOLD COAST.

    MINING ROYALTIES.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many of the total number of lessors of land for mining in the Gold Coast received royalties and how many receive royalties based on 10 per cent. of profits?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: In the Colony and Ashanti concession and mining rents are payable, under the Concessions Ordinances, to the native chief or other native authority who grants the concession. I have no information as to the number of such grants. Holders of mining and other concessions in the Colony and Ashanti are required to pay a profits tax of 5 per cent.; an exception is the Ashanti Goldfields Corporation which pays a royalty at the rate of 5 per cent. on gold and other minerals won. The proceeds both of the profits tax and of this latter royalty accrue to the general revenue of the Gold Coast. In the Northern Territories the minerals are owned by the Crown. The Minerals Ordinance, 1936, provides that all fees, rents and royalties imposed under the Ordinance shall form part of the

    1795
    public revenue, subject to the following provisions:

    (1) The Governor may cause to be remitted to the Native Authorities owning a particular piece of land in respect of which a mining right, licence or lease has been granted such proportion of the fees, etc., received therefrom as he shall consider proper; and

    (2) one-sixth of such fees, etc., is paid to the Benefits Trust Fund established under the Benefits Trust Ordinance.

    I have no detailed in formation regarding the payments under (1).
    Mr. Sorensen: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to secure the information which he says is not yet in his possession: Further, is he thoroughly satisfied that the percentage in native lands is the appropriate proportion?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I cannot get the information about the bulk of the mining royalties, because they are paid to native authorities and do not belong to the Government. The Government does not own the land. It is only in the Northern Territories Protectorate, where there is very little mining, that the Crown owns the land. I can get such information as there is, but it will take some time to collect as it is very remote.

    POLICE.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of dissatisfaction among the Gold Coast police; and whether he will inquire as to the cause?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am informed by the Governor that there is no dissatisfaction whatever among the Gold Coast police and that they have never been more contented.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of the Gold Coast police are complaining about the nature of their uniforms?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: This is the first time either the Gold Coast Government or I have heard that complaint.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will the right hon. Gentleman receive information from me if I send it to him?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Yes. I wish the hon. Member had done so before he put down the question.
    Mr. Thorne: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that if these people are contented they are the only people in the world who are contented?

  TRINIDAD (DISTURBANCES).
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the cause of the recent disturbances in Trinidad and the reason for so grave a loss of life; and what steps are being taken to remove the legitimate grievances of the natives concerned?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made yesterday in reply to the hon. Members for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor), Durham (Mr. Ritson) and Consett (Mr. David Adams) to which I have nothing at present to add.
  Mr. Creech Jones: I am aware of that statement, but what I want to know is whether there will be an independent and searching inquiry into the cause of these disturbances. Quite apart from any industrial settlement that may be arrived at, can we not have an inquiry into the social and industrial grievances?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I must consider that. When the troubles are over, I undertook that there would be an inquiry. The composition and the terms of reference of the inquiry I shall have to consider in due course.
  Mr. Leach: When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give an answer if another question is put down?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: When I hear what has happened in Trinidad, in the course of the next few days, or possibly weeks.

  SINGAPORE IMPROVEMENT TRUST.
  Mr. Toucheasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that loss and anxiety has been caused amongst property owners and investors in Singapore by the Singapore Improvement Trust making declarations under Part V of the Singapore Improvement Ordinance, 1927, so that owners of house property may be required to pull down whole areas of houses at their own expense and without compensation instead of proceeding under Part VI of the Ordinance with improvement schemes

  1797
  under which compensation is given; whether he is aware that the Singapore Improvement Trust recently put property owners to heavy expense in resisting illegal proceedings which the trust unsuccessfully defended at great cost to the public; and whether he will make inquiries into these matters and give instructions to the Governor-in-Council to restrict the activities of the Singapore Improvement Trust within proper bounds?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am aware of the recent judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in favour of the owners of certain property which had been the subject of a declaration by the Singapore Improvement Trust under the section mentioned, relating to buildings considered to be unfit for human habitation. The Judicial Committee in that case recorded their view that they had no doubt that the Improvement Trust had throughout acted with complete good faith and with an earnest desire to improve the housing accommodation of Singapore. The trust is a corporate body charged with the performance of certain statutory duties, and I am not in a position to give instructions as to how those duties should be carried out.

  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher (for Mr. Parker)asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how long the firm of J. A. Davis and Company, of 94 to 104, Denmark Hill, S.E., have been Government contractors, and when their last contract was completed?
  Lieut.-Colonel Colville: J. A. Davis and Company are not on the lists of firms invited to tender by Government Departments, and I have been unable to trace any Government contract executed by them.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Prime Minister what will be the business on Friday, and also what business it is proposed to take in the event of the Motion for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule being carried?
The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): As I have already announced, on Friday we shall take the concluding stages of the Exchange Equalisation Account Bill. Afterwards we shall consider the following Orders: Export Guarantees Bill, Second Reading; Local Government Superannuation Bill, Report and Third Reading; Rating and Valuation Bill, Second Reading; Trade Marks (Amendrnent) Bill [Lords], Report and Third Reading.
We are moving the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule to-night in order to obtain the Committee stage of the Agriculture [Money] Resolution. We also propose to take the first four Orders on the Paper, but I do not think they will cause much controversy.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 230; Noes, 128.

Division No. 243.]

AYES.

[3.44 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Albery, Sir Irving

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Bull, B. B.

Cox, H. B. T.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Cranborne, Viscount

Aske, Sir R. W.

Butter, R. A.

Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

Assheton, R.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Crooke, J. S.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Carver, Major W. H.

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Atholl, Duchess of

Cary, R. A.

Cross, R. H.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Crossley, A. C.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Crowder, J. F. E.

Balniel, Lord

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Cruddas, Col. B.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Culverwell, C. T.

Baxter, A. Beverley

Channon, H.

Davidson, Viscountess

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Dawson, Sir P.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Chorlton, A. E. L.

De la Bère, R.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Christie, J. A.

Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

Doland, G. F.

Bernays, R. H.

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Donner, P. W.

Blair, Sir R.

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

Blaker, Sir R.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Dower, Major A. V. G.

Drewe, C.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Duggan, H. J.

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Remer, J. R.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Richards, G. W. (Skipton)

Dunglass, Lord

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Ellis, Sir G.

Latham, Sir P.

Rowlands, G.

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Russell, Sir Alexander

Emery, J. F.

Leckie, J. A.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Lees-Jones, J.

Salmon, Sir I.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Leigh, Sir J.

Samuel, M. R. A.

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Levy, T.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Everard, W. L.

Liddall, W. S.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A

Fildes, Sir H.

Lindsay, K. M.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

Findlay, Sir E.

Lipson, D. L.

Smites, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Lloyd, G. W.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Furness, S. N.

Loftus, P. C.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Storey, S.

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

McKie, J. H.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Goldie, N. B.

Macnamara, Capt. J, R. J.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Macquisten, F. A.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Sutcliffe, H.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Thomas, J. P. L.

Grimston, R. V.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Touche, G. C.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Turton, R. H.

Hannah, I. C.

Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

Wakefield, W. W.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Hartington, Marquess of

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Munro, P.

Warrender, Sir V.

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Watt, G. S. H.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Wedderburn, . I. R.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. A.

Wells, S. R.

Hepworth, J.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

Patrick, C. M.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

Peat, C. U.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Higgs, W. F.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Pilkington, R.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Holmes, J. S.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J

Radford, E. A.

Withers, Sir J. J.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Horsbrugh, Florence

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Ramsbotham, H.

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Ramsden, Sir E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hulbert, N. J.

Rankin, Sir R.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert

Hunter, T.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Ward and Major Sir George Davies.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Day, H.

Jagger, J.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Dobbie, W.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Adamson, W. M,

Ede, J. C.

John, W.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Ammon, C. G.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Banfield, J. W.

Frankel, D.

Kelly, W. T.

Barnes, A. J.

Gallacher, W.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Barr, J.

Gardner, B. W

Kirby, B. V.

Batey, J.

Garro Jones, G. M.

Kirkwood, D.

Bellenger, F. J.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Bromfield, W.

Gibbins, J,

Lathan, G.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Lawson, J. J.

Buchanan, G.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Leach, W.

Burke, W. A.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Leonard, W.

Cape, T.

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Leslie, J. R.

Charleton, H. C.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Logan, D. G.

Chater, D.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Lunn, W.

Cluse, W. S.

Harris, Sir P. A.

McEntee, V. La T.

Cove, W. G.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

McGhee, H. G.

Daggar, G

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

McGovern, J.

Dalton, H.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

MacLaren, A.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Holdsworth, H.

Maclean, N.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughten)

Hopkin, D.

MacNeill, Weir, L.

1800

1801

Mander, G. le M.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Thurtle, E.

Marshall, F.

Rowson, G.

Tinker, J. J.

Messer, F.

Salter, Or. A. (Bermondsey)

Viant, S. P.

Montague, F.

Seely, Sir H. HI.

Walker, J.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Sexton, T. M.

Watkins, F. C.

Muff, G.

Silverman, S. S.

Watson, W. McL.

Naylor, T. E.

Simpson, F. B.

Westwood, J.

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

Paling, W.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Wilkinson, Ellen

Parker, J.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Parkinson, J. A.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Price, M. P.

Sorensen, R. W.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Stephen, C.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Ridley, G.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Riley, B.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Mr. Groves and Mr. Mathers.

Ritson, J.

Thorne, W.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
Viscountess Davidson, for the County of Hertford (Hemel Hempstead Division).

POULTRY AND POULTRY PRODUCTS (REGULATION OF IMPORTS).
Mr. Turton: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend Section one of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1933, with reference to the regulation of imports of poultry and poultry products."
I make no excuse for asking the House to devote ten minutes to a consideration of the plight of the poultry industry. While the price of poultry products is now about the same as it was last year, the cost of feeding stuffs has increased by 25 per cent. That is serious in itself, but the position in the immediate future threatens to be far more serious than it was last year. Imports of poultry products have increased by 600,000,000 eggs and the price in January, when one expects a better price for eggs because there are fewer of them, was 3d. a dozen less than the price in the previous year. Compared with the prices ruling in earlier years there was a difference between 1s. 3d. a dozen last year and an average price over the previous eight years of something like 2s. 1½d. At the same time, the cost of feeding stuffs has increased. Maize, which is the principal feeding stuff, rose from 17s. 9d. a quarter to 25s. 9d. a quarter. Free Trade Members of the House will appreciate the fact that there is no duty on maize used as a feeding stuff, and so it cannot be said that the rise is due to duties. Such being the position, I ask the House to do something to remedy it before next winter comes so that men shall not be forced out of the industry at that very crucial time. There are
1802
two methods. You can regulate by means of tariffs or you can regulate imports. It is impossible for the House to consider tariffs until the end of December owing to trade agreements.
Mr. Kirkwood: On a point of Order. Would I be in order in moving the Adjournment of the Debate until the Minister of Agriculture is in attendance?
Mr. Speaker: No, the hon. Member would not be in order in doing so.
Mr. Kirkwood: Is there anything we can do as a House of Commons to see that the Minister responsible for the Department under review is in his place during this Debate?
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid there is nothing that we can do in that matter.
Mr. Turton: As I was saying, tariffs are impossible at this stage. The other method, the regulation of imports is governed by the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1933, and under that Act there cannot be any regulation of imports unless there is a marketing scheme in contemplation or in operation. It would be very difficult to get a marketing scheme in a short time in the poultry industry. There are over 500,000 producers of whom only some 300,000 could, by any stretching of the term, be described as farmers, while 200,000 of them are men who have their poultry in their own back-yards or on small plots. It would be most difficult and costly, therefore, to run a marketing scheme. The position is such, however, that it brooks no delay, and for that reason I ask that, in respect of the poultry industry, Section 1 of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1933, should be amended by deleting the condition about marketing schemes. There would still be protection for the consumer in Sub-section (3) and the provision as to trade agreements.

1803
The Bill which I ask leave to introduce would not mean that there could be no marketing scheme for the poultry industry. Indeed, a marketing scheme would have a greater chance of success if the imports from foreign countries were coming here in an orderly and regulated manner. I suggest 1st August next as the date for the operation of the proposed Measure, because on that date, we hope, Members will have dispersed for the Summer Recess, and I think no Member would wish to leave for his holiday while the future of many of his constituents was insecure, and while in many cases they were in a plight very near bankruptcy. Many of those concerned are ex-service men who settled on the land after the war, and tried to find a home fit for heroes by means of eggs and poultry. Many are unemployed men trying to escape from dependence on public assistance by the same means. It is unjust that we should prefer eggs from Latvia, Holland and Poland to the produce of these men in our own poultry industry. For that reason I ask leave to introduce the Bill. I ask for no subsidy for these men, but I ask for justice.
Mr. A. V. Alexander: It is the usual practice in the House to give a sympathetic and kindly hearing to a private Member who asks leave to introduce a Bill, but there are occasions on which private Members select subjects for Motions under the Ten Minute Rule which are obviously unsuitable for Private Members' Bills and ought to be regarded as matters to be dealt with by the Government. I am certain that the hon. Member, with his great interest in agriculture, knows a good deal about the history of this egg and poultry industry for the last three or four years. He said in supporting his Motion that it would be exceedingly difficult to obtain a marketing scheme for this industry in a short time. I entirely agree, on the records we have in the industry. We have had the actual draft of a scheme promoted by representatives of the industry themselves prior to the appointment of the Reorganisation Commission. That scheme was defeated by the industry themselves.
Sir Percy Hurd: On a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman opposing the Motion?
Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman told me that that was what he was going to do.
Mr. Alexander: If it will satisfy the hon. Member, certainly I am opposing the Motion. That scheme, as I said, was defeated by the members of the industry. There followed a second scheme which was the subject of a great deal of time and labour, and it also was defeated within the industry itself. We have had the very long sittings and the considered report of the Reorganisation Commission appointed by the Government and presided over first by Lord Addison and subsequently by Mr. Blundell. The report of that Commission has been available to the House and the Government for many months. When we consider that with that information available the Government so far have done nothing, it can hardly be argued that we ought now to deal with the matter in the way that the hon. Member proposes, from the point of view of a private Member's Bill.
The proposal is that we should actually proceed by a private Member's Bill to introduce powers for the control or regulation of this industry, including the regulation of the imports of the commodity, without having the restrictions upon the poultry industry that are applicable to all other agricultural sections covered by the Agricultural Marketing Act. It was a sine qua non of the passage of the 1933 Act that no such artificial restriction of the people's food should take place unless the Minister were actually satisfied—the hon. Member did not quote the words but I will do so—
"that there have been, or are being, taken all such steps as are practicable and necessary for the efficient reorganisation, by means of agricultural marketing schemes or schemes under this Act, of those branches of agricultural industry … in whose interest the order is made; and that without an order under this Section the effective organisation and development of the said branches … under such schemes … cannot be brought about or cannot be maintained."
It is quite useless for the hon. Member to suggest that, outside that, there are adequate provisions for safeguarding the consumers' position in the country. Not only are difficulties arising for the producer, but certainly they are arising for

1805
the consumer. If a substantial amendment of Section 1 of the Act of 1933 is really required because of the wide issues, we consider that that ought to be the immediate and urgent function of the Government, and ought not to be dealt with by a Private Member's Bill. For that reason we shall oppose the Motion.
Question put,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend section one of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1933, with reference to the regulation of imports of poultry and poultry products."
The House divided: Ayes, 191; Noes, 101.

Division No. 244.]

AYES.

4.5 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Emery, J. F.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Adamson, W. M.

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Fildes, Sir H.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Albery, Sir Irving

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Patrick, C. M.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Peat, C. U.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Pilkington, R.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Goldie, N. B.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Atholl, Duchess of

Granville E. L.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Balniel, Lord

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Banfield, J. W.

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Remer, J. R.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Richards, G. W. (Skipton)

Baxter, A. Beverley

Hannah, I. C.

Ritson, J.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Blair, Sir R.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Rowlands, G.

Blaker, Sir R.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Rowson, G.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Hepworth, J.

Russell, Sir Alexander

Boyce, H. Leslie

Higgs, W. F.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Salmon, Sir I.

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Hopkin, D.

Samuel, M. R. A.

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Horsbrugh, Florence

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Bull, B. B.

Hunter, T.

Silverman, S. S.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Carver, Major W. H.

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

Cary, R. A.

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Kirby, B. V.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Channon, H.

Kirkwood, D.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Chorlton, A. E. L.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Christie, J. A.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

Latham, Sir P.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Sutcliffe, H.

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Leckie, J. A.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Cooke, J. O. (Hammersmith, S.)

Lees-Jones, J.

Tate, Mavis C.

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Leigh, Sir J.

Thomas, J. P. L.

Cox, H. B. T.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Tinker, J. J.

Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

Levy, T.

Touche, G. C.

Crooke, J. S.

Liddall, W. S.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Crossley, A. C.

Lindsay, K. M.

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Crowder, J. F. E.

Lipson, D. L.

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Cruddas, Col. B.

Little, Sir E. Graham-

Warrender, Sir V.

Culverwell, C. T.

Loftus, P. C.

Watt, G. S. H.

Davidson, Viscountess

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Wells, S. R.

Davison, Sir W. H.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Dawson, Sir P.

McKie, J. H.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

De la Bère, R.

Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

Macquisten, F. A.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Donner, P. W.

Mathers, G.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Dower, Major A. V. G.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Withers, Sir J. J.

Drewe, C.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Duggan, H. J.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Dunglass, Lord

Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Ellis, Sir G.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Mr. Rallies and Mr. Turton.

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Batey, J.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Barnes, A. J.

Bromfield, W.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr)

Barr, J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

Buchanan, G.

Jagger, J.

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Burke, W. A.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Cape, T.

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Ridley, G

Charleton, H. C.

John, W.

Riley, B.

Chater, D.

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Salter, Or. A. (Bermondsey)

Gove, W. G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Seely, Sir H. M.

Daggar, G.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Sexton, T. M.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Lathan, G.

Simpson, F. B.

Davies, R, J. (Westhoughton)

Lawson, J. J.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Dobbie, W.

Leach, W.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Ede, J. C.

Leslie, J. R.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Logan, O. G.

Sorensen, R. W.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Lunn, W.

Stephen, C.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

McEntee, V. La T.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Fletcher, Lt.-Gomdr. R. T. H.

McGhee, H. G.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Gallacher, W.

McGovern, J.

Thorne, W.

Gardner, B. W.

MacLaren, A.

Thurtle, E.

Garro Jones, G. M.

Maclean, N,

Viant, S. P.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

MacNeill, Weir, L.

Walker, J.

Gibbins, J.

Mander, G. le M.

Watkins, F. C.

Green, W. M. (Deptford)

Marshall, F.

Watson, W. McL.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Montague, F.

Westwood, J.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

Groves, T. E.

Muff, G.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Naylor, T. E.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Harris, Sir P. A.

Paling, W.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Parker, J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Parkinson, J. A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Mr. Leonard and Mr. Bellenger.

Holdsworth, H.

Price, M. P.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Turton, Sir Joseph Lamb, Sir Percy Hurd, Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith, Mr. Lambert, Major Mills, Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte, Raikes, Sir R. W. Smith, Rear-Admiral Beamish, Mr. Henry Haslam, and Colonel Ponsonby.

POULTRY AND POULTRY PRODUCTS (REGULATION OF IMPORTS) BILL,
"to amend section one of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1933, with reference to the regulation of imports of poultry and poultry products," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 175.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—

Ministers of the Crown Bill, with an Amendment.

Rochdale Corporation Bill,

Dunstable Gas and Water Bill,

Huddersfield Corporation Bill, with Amendments.

Amendments to—

Ashdown Forest Bill [Lords],

Barnet District Gas and Water Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

AGRICULTURE [MONEY].
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair].
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That it is expedient—
(1) to provide for the making, in accordance with a scheme, of contributions out of moneys provided by Parliament towards the cost incurred during a period ending not later than the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and forty-two, by occupiers of agricultural land in acquiring and transporting lime or basic slag for improving the fertility of their land, and for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred in connection with the said scheme;
(2) to provide that, in the event of the United Kingdom price per hundredweight of home-grown oats harvested in nineteen hundred and thirty-seven or in any of the four following years falling short of eight shillings by five pence or more, there may be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament a subsidy in respect of land in the United Kingdom which was under oats or under barley in the year in question, at a rate not exceeding one pound for each acre of such land, but also to make provision for securing—

(a) that the total amount which may be paid by way of such subsidy by reason of land having been under oats or under barley in any year after nineteen hundred and thirty-seven shall not exceed the amount which might have been so paid if the acreage of such land qualifying for subsidy in respect of the year in question had, not exceeded by more than one-tenth the acreage of such land which qualified for subsidy in respect of the year nineteen hundred and thirty-seven; and

(b) that deficiency payments under the Wheat Act, 1932, shall not be payable in respect of any wheat harvested in any particular year if the land on which the wheat was grown was at any time during the first eight months of that year comprised in a farm in relation to which the occupier elects to become eligible for the said subsidy in respect of that year;

and to provide for payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be determined to be required for defraying expenses incurred by the Wheat Commission in performing functions in connection with the said subsidy;
(3) to raise the limit of the quantity of wheat in respect of which deficiency payments may be made under the Wheat Act, 1932, at the full rate;
(4) to provide for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of grants towards expenditure incurred during a period ending not later than the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and forty-two, by drainage authorities in England (other than
1816
catchment boards and the councils of county boroughs which have not established agricultural committees) in the exercise of their functions in carrying out drainage schemes;
(5) to provide for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of grants towards expenditure by owners or occupiers of agricultural land in Scotland on the drainage thereof;
(6) to provide as respects Great Britain for the functions of veterinary inspectors (or veterinary officers) under the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 to 1935, under any enactments relating to milk or to dairies and under any arrangements made by virtue of section nine of the Milk Act, 1934, being discharged by veterinary inspectors appointed by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries (hereinafter referred to as 'the Minister');
(7) to provide for expenditure out of the Cattle Pleuro-Pneumonia Account with the object of eradicating so far as practicable diseases of animals in Great Britain;
(8) to repeal section nine of the Milk Act, 2934, and, in substitution therefor, to provide for the payment out of the Cattle Pleuro-Pneumonia Account during a period ending on the first day of February, nineteen hundred and forty-one, of payments to the owner of any herd of cattle for the purpose of securing so far as practicable that the herd will be free from tuberculosis, and for requiring boards administering milk marketing schemes to make payments after the end of the period aforesaid to registered producers in respect of milk produced by them, in such circumstances as may be prescribed, for the purpose of securing so far as practicable that herds will be free from tuberculosis;
(9) to afford facilities for having poultry tested and examined free of charge with a view to promoting the breeding and distribution of stocks of poultry which are free from disease, and for the payment of any expenses incurred for that purpose out of the Cattle Pleuro-Pneumonia Account or out of moneys provided by Parliament;
(10) to authorise the Minister to make arrangements with any local authority whereby the services of veterinary inspectors may be placed for agreed purposes at the disposal of the authority and to make charges in respect thereof;
(11) to make provision for the superannuation rights of veterinary inspectors transferring from local authority service to the Civil Service;
(12) to provide for the payment to the Exchequer of fees received by any Government Department in connection with the matters aforesaid;
(13) to provide for adjustments as to the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament or out of the Cattle Pleuro-Pneumonia Account respectively of certain expenses under the Diseases of Animals Acts, 2894 to 1935; and
(14) to make provision for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]
4.15 p.m.
The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. W. S. Morrison): I am moving this Resolution to prepare the way for a Bill to embody the proposals which I recently outlined to the House for increasing the fertility of the soil. The proposals are intended to serve two purposes. The first is to have regard to the object of putting the land into such a condition that if an emergency should occur the land will be able to play its part in a worthy manner to provide food for our own people. Secondly, it seeks to achieve this object in a manner consistent with and, indeed, advantageous to the normal development and practice of agriculture in time of peace. There has been expressed in some quarters a tendency to rush into a campaign of a war-time character, but this, obviously, does not come from the farmers. They are well aware of the harm that is done by sudden jolts and jerks in policy to an industry for which a continuous policy is a first essential.
The proposals set out in the Resolution, which are further described in the White Paper, deal with various subjects. The first paragraph deals with a proposal to give assistance in applying lime and basic slag to the soil. Since I announced these proposals I have received a great deal of comment and some criticism of them, but it is a remarkable fact that no farmers have ever doubted the wisdom of applying lime to the soil. It is a remarkable example of unanimity, and it is so clear that this will be of great benefit to the land that I need not stress the point. There is not only agreement that it will be beneficial, there is also agreement that the benefit is likely to be of an enduring character. For that reason I commend it heartily to the Committee. Liming is a very old British practice. Pliny writing in the first century said:
"There is another way of nourishing earth by earth, which has been found out in Britain and Gaul.… The principal of those, reckoned the fat kinds, is the white; of this there are many. One very acrid.… Another kind is like a soft clay. It is found at great depth; the pits very frequently dug an hundred feet down, narrow at the mouth; but the vein, as in metals, widening within. This is chiefly used in Britain. It remains 80 years; nor is there an instance of any man laying it twice on the same field."
The Committee will not expect me to enter upon the scientific basis of such a venerable practice. Suffice it to say that the scientist fully bears out the empirical
1818
knowledge of generations. It has been said, in the farmer's phrase, that lime sweetens the soil. Perhaps this is in simple language as apt a description of its functions as to say that it neutralises the soil acids, promotes a kindly medium for bacteriological activity, and restores to the soil the mineral constituents whose absence leads to feebleness and decay in plant life. Basic slag is, compared with the antiquity of lime, a newcomer. It is a by-product of the steel industry which is of recent growth in our country. It is also a basic substance and contains phosphoric acid. It is of great use in the improvement of pastures, and it is also long lasting in its effect.
The assistance to these two products is not an end in itself. It is to be given with the object of improving the cultivation of the soil, and particularly with the object of encouraging the improvement of grassland management. The impact of the agricultural crisis, which was world-wide, had two serious effects upon British agriculture. Not only did the low returns impoverish the industry, but, at the same time, the availability of copious supplies of very cheap imported feeding stuffs tended to make the agriculturists, short as they were of cash, rely upon feeding their animals on these imported stuffs rather than upon the produce of their own fields. This tendency was most noticeable among the specialist producers, and now, with the return of feeding stuffs to more normal price levels, they are feeling the impact of that situation. The return of normal prices to feeding stuffs is a sign of increased reward to primary producers, which is the aim and the policy of practically every Government in the world and is, indeed, the basis of real world prosperity. If this condition of dependency upon imported feeding stuffs were inevitable, there would be no more to be said. We should have to resign ourselves to dependence on the vagaries of the American climate, but I am by no means convinced that this dependence is inevitable.
I believe that we have in our own island a crop which we can raise better than anyone else in the world, and that crop is grass. Grass is really the foundation of our supremacy in the livestock industry, and its excellence as a crop is based upon the two permanent factors in all agricultural practice of soil and

1819
climate. I hope that we can develop this great resource to a degree that will decrease our dependence on imported feeding stuffs. We must come to regard grass as a crop, and not just as something to which you lay down land. The researches of the scientists have shown what can be done with grass, even on poor land, by extending the grazing season and thereby diminishing the expenditure upon bought feeding stuffs. The Government intend to combine this assistance to lime and slag with a policy of improving grassland management. I think that such a policy, if carried into effect, will do much to free us from our present dependence upon uncontrollable circumstances, such as the climate in foreign countries. It will also achieve one of the major objects of these proposals; it will store up fertility in the soil and provide us with land which can yield food at once if called upon to do so.
The Committee will, I apprehend, wish to be reassured on one point with regard to these proposals to assist the purchase of lime and slag, and the increased demand which will result. The question will naturally arise how that increased demand is to be prevented from manifesting itself in an increased price. In other words, what measures can be taken to prevent this subsidy from finding its way, in part, not to the land, but into the pockets of the manufacturers of lime and basic slag. This difficulty was foreseen, and, before any announcement of policy was made, I entered into negotiations of a confidential character with the suppliers of lime and slag. They differ from one another in the extent of their control of these two products. Slag is in relatively few hands, whereas lime is in many hands and in many more potential hands. The upshot is that the suppliers of slag have agreed not only not to increase the price agricultural crisis, which was world-wide, of their product, but to reduce the prices prevailing on 1st May by 6d. per ton on low grade, 9d. on medium grade, and is, on high grade, when the scheme comes into operation. I should like to express my appreciation to the producers of slag and to the British iron and steel industry for the way in which they met me in these negotiations. With regard to lime, there are many derelict lime kilns which might start into life again.
Mr. Tinker: What will be the price of basic slag when the 1s. is taken off?
Mr. Morrison: The 1st May price is, of course, the price that was fixed in ignorance that any such scheme as this was in the offing. The price varies greatly according to the quality of the slag, because it varies considerably in its content of phosphoric acid. Returning to lime, I should like to see these lime kilns start into life again. I can see them as the basis of a prosperous village industry, and I hope that something of that character may be developed. The matter has gone further than that. The Lime and Limestone Association, which controls the bulk of the lime used for agricultural purposes, have agreed to maintain the price on the 1st May level, despite the fact that a rise was due, as they told me, on account of the increased costs, chiefly of coal and wages. To them I also express my thanks. We thus have in lime the double check that the large suppliers have agreed not to raise their prices, and that there is a potential industry which can come into existence and act as a check to any undue rise in price.
Mr. T. Williams: Has the right hon. Gentleman the prices for 1st May?
Mr. Morrison: There are a variety of prices according to the particular class of lime. It varies a great deal in quality from building lime, which is the most expensive, down to the lowest grade, which is used for agricultural purposes. It is, therefore, impossible to give a figure which expresses the price of lime or slag. The result of our negotiations is that there will be no rise in price from the 1st May level, and in the case of slag there will be an actual decrease. Provision is made also that if, from unforeseen cause, a rise in price is necessary through increased costs of outside materials used for the production of these products, the matter will be subjected to an accountancy investigation before any rise in price takes place. The Committee can, therefore, be assured that so far as it is humanly possible to ensure it, none of this subsidy will go direct into the pockets of the manufacturers or merchants.
Mr. Westwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain whether the term "occupiers of agricultural land" would include crofters?
Mr. Morrison: Yes, it does. "Occupiers of agricultural land" is the widest phrase that we can use for this purpose. There is one thing that I would like to say about the smallholders and crofters. In order to prevent unnecessarily small sums being handed out to a great variety of applicants, two tons of lime is the lowest unit in favour of which a subsidy will be paid, but it is quite open to a group of crofters or smallholders to combine together to buy such a unit or such a group of units, and in those circumstances the assistance will become available to them.
Mr. Kirkwood: How much land does the Minister think will require two tons of lime?
Mr. Morrison: That again is a question to which one cannot give a categorical answer, because land varies very greatly in its requirement of lime, and I hope farmers will take advantage of the expert advice which will be available to them from the county agricultural education committees and experts and in other places to ensure that they do apply their lime in the most efficient and economical way. This result about fixing the price was only possible of achievement on two conditions. One was the co-operation in this work of the suppliers, and the other was that this assistance was given to products wholly of home origin, with whose suppliers we could negotiate with some certainty.
Paragraphs (2) and (3) arise from the fact that it is not possible to maintain the fertility of the soil and its capacity to play its part in an emergency without a reiteration of the old maxim "Speed the plough." Short leys, with cereals in the rotation, are essential in proper grassland management, and for that reason we are inserting these proposals dealing with wheat, oats, and barley. Our experience of the Wheat Act has shown that, given an assured price, even though it is, as it is now, lower than the world price, we can produce more wheat than the limit of 6,000,000 quarters which was placed in the 1932 Act. Paragraph (3) therefore proposes to increase the limit to 8,000,000 quarters, and this, at the present price of wheat, involves neither a charge on the Exchequer nor a levy on the consumer. The object is to provide a guarantee against prices falling to unremunerative levels.
1822
So much for wheat, but there are many districts in this country where no wheat at all can be grown because of climatic conditions, and in these districts some resentment was felt, and indeed was expressed from time to time, at the apparent neglect of their only possible cereal and at what appeared to be an undue preference for wheat and for the relatively Southern people who grow it. Those districts are parts of Scotland and Wales and parts of North West England. It is to meet the necessities of these growers that paragraph (2) appears. It refers primarily to those regions where neither wheat nor malting barley can be grown. Their sole arable crops are oats and feeding barley. I am sure no man with land which can grow either wheat or malting barley—and, speaking roughly, the same land can grow both—will grudge this assurance against a fall in prices.
Oats, I might say in passing, are a portentous problem to any Minister of Agriculture. It was the fecundity of this crop which brought about the repeal of the Corn Production Act, and that in itself would induce caution in approaching it, but the fact is that at present we produce some 93 per cent. of our requirements of this cereal. In England and Wales and parts of Scotland this crop is grown mostly to feed on the farm, and only in certain parts of the island is it grown as a cash crop. The internal combustion engine has seen to it that we have only got a 7 per cent. margin before we are over the crop which we can consume in normal practice. Hence any general stimulus of oat growing applied to regions which have an unlimited capacity for this crop would lead to the possibility of over production and a collapse in the price, with disastrous effects on those who rely on this crop as their main cash crop. It is for that reason that two provisions are inserted in the Resolution—one, a standard acreage allowing for 10 per cent. increase on the 1937 acreage and, in the second place, the direction of assistance in general to those lands which can grow only oats or feeding barley.
But there are marginal lands where both oats and barley can be grown, with some wheat. In such cases a system of election is provided, by which a man may choose every year which form of cereal assistance he prefers, and as the election will take place about 4th June, there can

1823
be no question of a man being penalised through frustration of his sowing intentions by adverse weather. The crop is well in the ground, for better or for worse, by that time. We link the barley subsidy to the oats price because this form of assistance is to benefit the man who can grow only feeding barley. No average price for barley, taken over the whole range of the crop, has any real meaning. There is such a diversity and disparity between the prices of malting barley and feeding barley, that there is no true average for the crop at all. They are really, from the point of view of price, different commodities. There is, on the other hand, a close relation between the price of feeding barley and That of oats. They move in harmony together, and they are both conditioned to a great extent by the world price of maize.
I now come to the proposal which I adumbrated with regard to drainage.
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Before my right hon. Friend leaves that subject, can he explain why the grower cannot have a subsidy for both wheat and barley and oats?
Mr. Morrison: I have tried to make it clear that if you extend a stimulus to oat production to those lands which at present can grow wheat and malting barley, you may find yourself producing far more oats than you could possibly consume inside the country, with disastrous effects on those growers of oats whose only crop on a cash basis it is. That is really the reason.
Major Mills: Can my right hon. Friend say why these prices of oats have to fall short of 8s. by 5d. or more before qualifying for subsidy?
Mr. Morrison: The real reason is for administrative convenience. Unless there was that gap of 5d., we might find ourselves in any year having to pay out a large number of very small sums, which would be of no real assistance to the grower, but would involve great expense and strain on the administration. The real reason for the provision, in short, is to ensure that by this gap assistance is paid out in sufficient sums to be of real value, when that assistance is really required.
In regard to drainage, I think the whole Committee is agreed that some improve-
1824
ment in this direction is desirable. It has been stated time and time again, and it is indeed obvious, because you cannot grow crops on waterlogged land. The present proposal, so far as England and Wales are concerned, is to give grants up to 33⅓ per cent. of the cost of approved works to internal drainage boards and to those local authorities that carry out the work of drainage where there are no internal drainage boards. I would only like to say that the object of this step of improving the drainage system of the country is to clean out that part of the drainage system which connects the fields with the arterial system of the catchment boards. You have to proceed step by step in the matter to ensure that the land below can carry the water which you propose to drain off the land above, and not start the other way, by draining water off the fields unless you are sure that it can get away.
There is one other point that I would like to make about that. Certain internal drainage boards have cast upon them not only the ordinary task of providing drainage works, but they are so situated that they cannot discharge their responsibilities in this direction without the construction of pumps and sluices and other apparatus of a relatively expensive character. In these cases approved schemes may have grants up to 50 per cent., where such additional works are required. There are other internal drainage boards which have cast upon them the duty of preventing the sea from breaking in, and sea walls are frequently an expensive item to maintain. In such cases an enhanced grant of 50 per cent. will be available to them, also for approved works.
I now come to the last, but by no means the least, of these proposals, and that is the inauguration of an attack on disease in flocks and herds of animals and in poultry on a scale greater than we have ever before attempted in this country up to the present time. We propose to use for this purpose the machinery of the Diseases of Animals Acts. The two essential features of that machinery are these: In the first place, it involves control at the ports, recollecting that Great Britain is an island and must be protected from infection carried from foreign shores. The second feature which is peculiar to this machinery lies in the fact

1825
that it proceeds by the designation of areas in the country which are infected and by orders controlling the movement of animals within these areas and out of them into other parts of the country. The sole criterion of an area which is the subject of an order is whether it has disease in it or not, and no account is taken of county or other borders.
In this way various diseases have been tackled with success. Sheep-pox was stamped out in 1850, and it has not reappeared; cattle plague was controlled, and finally eradicated in 1877; pleuro-pneumonia in cattle, a very devastating disease, was finally eradicated in 1898; rabies was stamped out in 1902, though it reappeared again in 1918, because, it is believed, people brought over dogs in aeroplanes and thus evaded control at the ports. It took four years to suppress it then, but since 1922 it has disappeared. Among horses epizootic lymphangitis was imported into this country in 1905 and was eradicated in the following year; there was the last case of glanders in 1928; foot-and-mouth disease, anthrax, sheep-scab, swine fever, and parasitic mange have all been kept under control. The feature of this machinery which has ensured its success is that it has been a Great Britain service, for disease knows no political frontiers.
The system has had success in the diseases which I have mentioned, which are all of a highly infectious character, but I regret to say that our position with regard to other infectious diseases of a more insidious spread, and to which other machinery has been applied, notably tuberculosis, has tended to deteriorate. This is due partly to the increased mobility of modern life. A greater number of animals has had to be transported from one part of the country to another, and there is development of dairying on the flying herd basis where a man buys cattle, which travel long distances and which come from a source of whose freedom from infection he is ignorant. The Gowland Hopkins Committee reported in 1934 and estimated that 58 per cent. of the dairy cattle leaving herds were disposed of on account of disease; that the average productive life of dairy cattle was under four and a-half years, or half what it should be; that 40 per cent. of the cows were infected with tuberculosis in various degrees and
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that about the same proportion were affected with contagious abortion. The total burden of the diseases among all kinds of livestock has been estimated at about £14,000,000 a year.
It is clear that the eradication of disease, if we were only half successful, would be a most valuable service to agriculture. So far we have tackled it in two ways. There was the Tuberculosis Order of 1925 under the Diseases of Animals Act. That is a Great Britain service and prescribes rules whereby cattle which are very badly infected with tuberculosis, so as to be visibly affected and dangerous, may be slaughtered and compensation paid; but that Tuberculosis Order does not touch cases which cannot be so described but are none the less reactors to the tuberculin test and may be conveyors of the disease. The second way in which we have tackled it has been by legislation directed to the purity of the milk supply as a public health service. This has been administered by local authorities in England and Scotland with varying results. It is now proposed to tackle this immense problem as what it is, namely, a problem of diseases of animals, by the diseases of animals machinery, with a single island service of veterinary officers for the purpose. It is not a problem which farmers themselves can possibly solve. It is the result of many generations of neglect, and one generation of farmers cannot provide a cure for it. But farmers can, if this service is provided for them and they co-operate with it, rid themselves by degrees of this heavy burden and toll of disease.
Nor am I convinced that this problem will be solved under the present system, whereby local authorities, with their varying resources and standards, are grappling with it. I should like to pay a tribute to the wholly admirable manner in which some local authorities are discharging their responsibilities under existing legislation. It is worthy of great admiration, the work of these public-spirited men of all classes, who have given their services free and given their interest to this great work. It is not the men but the system which is at fault. To put the thing as shortly as I can, what is wrong is the varying standards of administration, very often due to varying rateable values and resources. As a result of that variation we find that good work which has

1827
been done in one county may be hampered and destroyed by less good work in an adjoining county, bearing in mind the greater mobility of cattle and the flying herds to which I alluded a moment ago. The bacillus ignores county boundaries, and the division of areas by counties is not the same thing as the designation of areas on account of the amount of disease or absence of disease in them.
This variation has had a second bad result. It has led to complaints, which no one can deny are well founded, on the part of farmers that they have applied to them in some cases standards which are mere rigorous than those demanded of their neighbours living in a different county, and this feeling of dissatisfaction tends to dishearten farmers from co-operating as we should like to see them do in this great battle against disease.
There is a second fault in the present system. which is that the powers of local authorities, regarding the matter as a milk problem, are inadequate for the purpose. Dealing with milk, as they do, they deal only with cows, and this is a problem of the diseases of animals, whether they be male or female. What we propose is something bigger in scope than local authorities have ever tried to do before. It will have a beneficial effect on the milk side of the picture, because the surest way of getting tubercle-free milk is to get cows free from tubercle in the first instance. Healthy cattle are the logical foundation of pure, clean milk. The attack on tuberculosis has hitherto been carried out in detachments, with a local force sometimes getting out of touch with its neighbour and liable from that cause to encirclement by the enemy and to frustration. What is required is not so much a change in tactics as a more comprehensive strategy. These proposals in the White Paper seek to set on foot this more comprehensive strategy by the creation of a centralised veterinary service for the whole island to combat the diseases of animals and of poultry in all their manifestations.
This is largely a veterinary problem, and I am glad to say that veterinary opinion is in favour of it. The veterinary profession realise that the series of Diseases of Animals Acts provide the one way in which to tackle disease, and they
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realise, also, that in this way there is hope of real progress. Some apprehensions have been expressed, because we are setting up this centralised State service of veterinary officers, that in some way part-time practising veterinary surgeons will have their living interfered with, but there is no ground at all for that fear. Where veterinary surgeons are now employed on a part-time basis by local authorities it is certain that we shall have to employ them on the same basis to carry out tests and do other work similar to that which they are doing now. Indeed, it is true to say that by making the agricultural community more conscious of the importance of disease among livestock there is a greater prospect of these practitioners finding their services utilised. I hope to see from this a rise in the whole status of the veterinary profession in this country, and that will be of lasting benefit to agriculture and to the nation.
I have given an outline of the proposals for which I am asking the assent of the Committee. They have suffered to some extent by the application to them of epithets of a magniloquent character, which are not mine, and which seem to claim too much for them. In particular, I have often seen them described as "the Government's long-term policy for agriculture," generally as a preface to some remarks of a derogatory nature. The assumption underlying the use of this term is that we thought that when this has been done nothing more will remain to be done; but that is not my view at all. The problems of agriculture are many and various. The maintenance of remunerative prices along with ample supplies to consumers is the object of Government policy. Certain aspects of the policy have been dealt with, others remain for completion, but, after all, the foundation of the whole structure is the fertility of the soil and the health of the stock upon it. These proposals for which I now ask assent are long-term proposals in the sense that if Parliament agrees to them we shall have done something of lasting benefit to an industry which is vital to the welfare of the nation in peace as in war.
4.55 p.m.
Mr. T. Williams: This is one more instalment of the short and long-term

1829
agricultural policies of the National Government. I can readily agree with the right hon. Gentleman when he said that he has not reached the end of the journey yet. The Government asked for a doctor's mandate in 1931, and for six years they have been applying in the field of agriculture every known quack medicine. They have dealt with sugar, wheat, milk and beef, and now we have proposals for wheat, oats, barley and fertilisers. The right hon. Gentleman said that what agriculture requires more than all else is continuity of policy. There has been continuity of a certain kind since 1931, but nobody can recognise the sameness of the policy, no matter how closely one looks at it. It has varied almost from clay to day, as must be the case when dealing with agriculture. I hope the time will come when we shall have reached the end of the agricultural journey, but I am afraid, with the various policies enunciated by the three Scottish Ministers of Agriculture who now occupy and previously occupied that Ministerial post, that when we have reached the end of the journey it will be because we shall be meeting ourselves coming back.
This Money Resolution is good and bad in parts. Some parts of the Resolution are very commendable, although they have been long delayed. Other parts seem to imply that the Government are submerged below the problem and are making no effort to rise above it. This Money Resolution, assuming prices to be what they have been for 18 months, will over a period of five years cost the Treasury a further £17,000,000. I am not saying that the money is too much, but it is another nice gift to agriculture and those connected with the industry. With regard to the drainage proposals, which naturally follow in the wake of the 1931 Act, they will be welcomed by all Members sitting on these benches, and presumably by Members sitting in all parts of the House. Our only complaint is that through false economy from 1932 to 1936 this drainage scheme has been delayed, and it may be that not only have hundreds of thousands of acres of good fertile land remained dormant but that thousands of agricultural labourers have been deprived of employment. In my own division the internal drainage problem is very real and the burden almost intolerable; as much as 4s. or 5s. in the £
1830
for internal drainage alone. It is of no consequence for the authorities to spend their money draining internally as long as the main channel is left unattended to, as has been the case for five or six years, although the necessary legislation is on the Statute Book.
We recognise that this is an indirect subsidy to the owner of the land, and that it is inevitable that the State must continue, in the circumstances, to water and fertilise estates that belong to somebody else, but we welcome the drainage proposals. We hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not stop short of the £150,000 per annum referred to in the White Paper, and that, if local drainage committees get on with the job and renew their machinery and their pumping apparatus, they will find a ready and willing Minister, prepared to approve and adopt their schemes, and provide the appropriate financial aid. We are also wholeheartedly with the Minister in regard to the eradication of diseases, which is not only a step in the right direction but a step which ought to have been taken about 30 years ago. The Gowland Hopkins Report, which was published in 1934, explained that an appalling state of affairs existed in agriculture, in respect of disease in the cattle of this country. There were approximately 50 counties which had not one full-time veterinary surgeon. As most of the counties were dominated by farmers, on the farms and as county councillors, they were wholly responsible for the unfortunate state of affairs within the animal kingdom.
The report pointed out that 40 per cent. of our dairy cows were reactors, and that there were no signs of diminution. The life of a dairy cow was about 4½ years when it very well might be 11 or 12 years, and that the annual loss due to the death of dairy cows sold for the meat market, lest they contracted tuberculosis in an acute form, when there would be a total loss, was round about £3,000,000. That is a hefty figure. If the first step that the Minister is taking will lead to the cleaning up of the herds of this country although it might take a long time, unless the Government's methods are much more vigorous than has been the case for many years, the saving to agriculture and to the health of the people, including the consumers of milk, will be enormous. Therefore, we welcome the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman. We want to

1831
see in existence as soon as possible a national veterinary service with full power to act, so that no county which ignores its responsibilities will affect adjoining counties in which people are doing their best to clean up their herds.
The same argument applies to poultry. I understand bat the wastage of money in respect of poultry is enormous. If, instead of trying to restrict imports, as the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) would do, always taking the easy course, the Government would try to get new strains of poultry and eradicate diseases, they might save for the poultry keepers infinitely more than they will give them by the increased prices of eggs brought about by the simple process of restricting the imports of eggs from foreign countries.
Mr. Turton: As the hon. Member has mentioned my name, may I ask him whether his suggestions for helping to remove poultry diseases would have helped the farmer last January to make a profit on eggs?
Mr. Williams: When an hon. Member has put a question to a Minister and has subsequently asked Mr. Speaker whether he is not entitled to a reply, Mr. Speaker always indicates that the Minister can either reply or refrain from replying. I do not think that any reply I could give to the hon. Member would be helpful to him at all. I should require notice of that question. With regard to the proposition as to basic slag and lime for agriculture, that is another indirect gift to the landowners, but it has more merit than many of the Government's proposals. At least it will go directly to the soil, and to that extent will restore or maintain fertility in a form which many of the other proposals previously brought forward by the Government have not done. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the producers of lime have been extremely generous in their negotiations with him. They have actually accepted the 1st May fixed price and gone to the extent of reducing that price by 1s.
Mr. W. S. Morrison: The reduction is in the case of basic slag.
Mr. Williams: Perhaps the producers of lime will guarantee to the Minister that they will not increase their prices. Since they are likely to sell two or three times
1832
as much lime as they have ever sold before, they will be able to manage on the price that existed on 1st May this year. The generosity will be not so much upon the part of the sellers of lime as upon that of the Treasury, who are putting up the money to increase their sales and enable them to do fairly well.
I have a letter from the Wigan and District Chamber of Commerce relating to a firm who produce slag phosphates. They inform me that if the Minister's policy of a subsidy for basic slag goes through the producers of slag phosphates, containing 40 per cent. of phosphates, will simply have to go out of business. I could not justify that complaint or make any sensible observation upon it not being acquainted with the technical problems involved, but the firm declare that they have just ordered 30,000 new bags in anticipation of forthcoming sales, and they suggest that the policy of the Government will put them clean out of business. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will look at this side of the question and see exactly what the reactions, if any, will be.
As to the possibilities of grassland in this country, with our peculiar and very useful climate, I entirely agree. To refertilise our grasslands will place us in a position of being able, at the call, to increase our output of agricultural products to an almost unlimited extent, but when the Government have subsidised production, what are they going to do, I would ask, about consumption? Certain well-known commodities are produced in this country, without an increase in fertility, in quantities that the consumers already cannot afford to buy. We are subsidising English beef to the extent of £5,000,000 per annum because British consumers, the poorer classes, cannot afford to pay the price of British beef. We are subsidising manufacturing milk, again because the British consumer cannot afford to pay liquid milk prices. Once we have refertilised our soil and placed ourselves in a position to increase the output of beef, milk, dairy products and the rest, will the Minister have any ideas, I wonder, about subsidising consumption?
The nutrition experts have informed the right hon. Gentleman and the nation that there are millions of people in this country whose incomes will not enable them to purchase an adequate supply of the right kinds of food. That is not a Socialist

1833
propaganda statement. Unless those incomes are increased, or unless the Treasury will subsidise the poorer families so that they may be able to consume the increased produce, what is to happen to the surplus products? Does this policy imply that when we have fertilised our grassland—
Mr. MacLaren: It is not our land.
Mr. Williams: Well, the other fellow's land.
Mr. MacLaren: That is better.
Mr. Williams: When that land has been restored to its maximum fertility, and when we have increased our livestock and our livestock prices, what is to happen to those goods, if the lower-paid workers cannot afford to buy any larger quantities of them? Shall we have to increase the subsidy for British beef and for manufacturing milk? Unless spending power is provided, directly or indirectly, I do not quite see what is to happen, when the land of this country is producing up to its absolute capacity. The right hon. Gentleman has given only one indication; he is prepared to subsidise cattle foods, but he is not prepared to subsidise the consumption of human food.
Paragraphs (2) and (3) differ fundamentally from paragraphs (1) and (4–13). They deal with barley, oats and wheat. The Minister provided little justification, except in one sentence, for either guaranteed prices, direct subsidising or indirect subsidising of the producers, of wheat, oats or barley, as paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Money Resolution do. I should think this country could not hope to compete with the rolling plains of Canada, the United States, Australia and South America in the production of wheat, barley or oats. Our land and climate are mostly unsuited to the production of wheat. I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman's fertilising policy has not been brought much nearer and made much more acute because so much of the land of this country has gone wheat sick, because farmers have been growing wheat on land totally unsuited to its production.
This proposal is to extend the guarantee of 45s. from 6,000,000 quarters to 8,000,000 quarters. That will be a further encouragement to farmers to grow wheat on land which is wholly unsuited to its production. The same objection
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applies to oats. We are a very small, thickly populated island. Not in our fondest dreams have we ever hoped to be able to feed ourselves. What can we produce in this country? What are our land and climate most suited to produce—animal food or human food? It seems to me that that question is very easy to answer. We are informed that in Argentina 3 lbs. of maize can be produced for 2d. or 3d. If the 3 lbs. of maize are fed to cattle or pigs in this country, they will produce a shillings-worth of beef or bacon. Apparently the Minister, by these proposals, prefers to produce the three-pennyworth of cereal here, and import the shillingsworth of beef or bacon; he prefers to subsidise the production of cattle food instead of the production of human food; for, after all, what is grown on the land is very largely fed to cattle, and then the human family consume the livestock or livestock products. The effect of paragraphs (2) and (3) of the Resolution is to make a special effort to deal with 5 per cent. of the value of our agricultural products. In the year 1935, corn represented 5 per cent. of the total value of agricultural products produced in this country.
Why should we encourage farmers to produce in abundance commodities for the production of which the land is not wholly suited, when they can produce other commodities which we must have, whether we obtain them from our own land or import them from other countries? I can, of course, provide a reply to that question. It is no use providing too large a volume of livestock or livestock products, because the wages of the work-people will not enable them to buy them. That is what seems to be lurking at the hack of the Minister's mind, as it was at the back of the mind of his predecessor, and probably in turn of his predecessor also in 1932, when the Wheat Act was passed. Paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Money Resolution might well have been omitted, and farmers, instead of being encouraged to produce certain commodities which are largely cattle food, might have been encouraged to put the land to its best use. Grass, after all, is, as the right hon. Gentleman said, one of our most valuable assets. When one sees a field of wheat in the middle of August waving in the sun, one regards that as the produce of the land, but when one sees a field of grass one regards it almost

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as a field of weeds, whereas in point of fact the grass field is of far greater value to agriculture and to the country than the field of wheat.
For once in a way, hon. Members opposite cannot complain of imports of oats. In 1935, only 9,000 cwts. of oats were imported from foreign countries, so that farmers are not suffering from the old problem of foreign imports in that case. Some 80 per cent. of the oats we produce here is consumed on the farm, as cattle food or as poultry food. Why, then, guarantee the price of oats? Farmers only produce oats for their own use, so why guarantee them a price when the oats are not sold except to themselves? Although the number of horses used in agriculture has decreased by between 200,000 and 300,000, farmers insisted upon producing the same quantity of oats as before. There was not a ready market for them, prices fell, and, of course, the Scottish farmers in particular had some reason for grumbling after the Act of 1932 had been passed to deal with wheat, largely produced in England and Wales.
As regards barley, we understand that some 75 or 80 per cent. of the barley produced in this country is sold off the farm. Approximately 60 per cent. of the barley produced in this country is sold to the brewers, and another 15 or 20 per cent. is sold for animal food of some kind. If the brewers say to the producers of barley, "Your barley is not worth more than 6s. per cwt.," the right hon. Gentleman steps in and says, "All right, we will make it up to 8s., or to the price referred to in the White Paper with a maximum of £1 per acre." Thus the proposal of the paragraph relating to barley can be turned into, an indirect subsidy to the brewers of this country. They, poor fellows, are not too well off, and have need of it, and it may be that the right hon. Gentleman's generosity is not out of place. But I should not think that that was the object and purpose of the Government when they included barley in these proposals.
If one looks at the question from the point of view of war purposes, storage is comparatively cheap; grain will last for years; and I cannot quite see why we ought to encourage the production of cereals, which form so small a part of the value of our agricultural produce. Some wheat, some oats, and some barley will be needed, but in any circumstances the
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quantities will be relatively small. Before 1932, when the Wheat Act was passed, land was certainly going down to grass; agriculture was finding its own level. The Act of 1932 brought it up with a jerk. It guaranteed for wheat a price which was double the world price, and British farmers started to produce wheat. Every farmer, naturally, wants to grow what he likes. His concern is with his balance sheet. He is not concerned with agriculture as such, or with the nation, but with those particular commodities which he himself thinks will produce the best living for him. If we encourage him to grow the wrong commodities, we are doing the wrong thing, not only for the farmer and for agriculture, but for the nation.
I regret that on this occasion we cannot give the right hon. Gentleman our wholehearted support for every proposal embodied in the Resolution. We support his drainage policy; we support his policy for eradicating animal and poultry diseases; we shall not vote against his lime and basic slag policy; although I am not sure that we could not justify opposition to the giving of millions of pounds to private owners of land, we do not feel disposed to vote against that; but we do not feel that it is in the best interests of the nation that paragraphs (2) and (3) should form part of this Money Resolution.
5.25 p.m.
Mr. Lambert: The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) once came to Devonshire and visited our Agricultural College. I hope he gained some information there. I should like him to pay us another visit, because I think he would gain more information. When he tells us that the farmers of this country are planting wheat on land that is wheat-sick, I want to say that the average yield of wheat from the land, in England, at any rate, is 2½ times as much as it is from the rolling plains of Canada. I want to assure the hon. Member, and the Opposition generally, that farmers are not ploughing up poor land and planting it with wheat, but are only planting wheat on the most suitable soil, because, believe me, the price of 45s. a quarter will not encourage any farmer to plough up unsuitable land for wheat. There is another point on which I must correct the hon. Gentleman. He says that grass is our most valuable product. I quite agree that grass is a most valuable

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product for the maintenance of stock, but only in the summer. In the winter it is necessary to provide cereals and other feeding stuffs. Therefore, I do not want the hon. Gentleman to run away with the idea that grass is the most valuable crop, when we must have other feeding stuffs to keep cattle going in the winter.
To my mind, the most encouraging statement in the very admirable speech of the Minister was the statement that he proposes to maintain a remunerative price for agricultural products. I can tell him to-day that the situation in agriculture is not satisfactory. I know that the Government have good intentions, but they have proceeded along wrong lines, that is to say, by a continual application of subsidies. Despite what the hon. Member for Don Valley has just said, I am not in favour of subsidies. I would very much prefer that the Government should enable agricultural producers to obtain stable prices which would afford them a proper remuneration. Subsidies, to my mind, are simply temporary expedients. They can be repealed by Parliament at any moment; no farmer has confidence in them; and, therefore, I should have much preferred another method of dealing with the agricultural problem. I should have preferred to deal with it by guaranteeing to the farmers of the country stable and reasonable prices. The labourers' wages have been guaranteed. They are not too high; indeed, as I shall point out in a moment, they are not high enough; but those wages cannot be paid unless the price of the product justifies them. I want hon. Gentlemen opposite to understand that, when I am defending the agricultural position, I am defending it reasonably; I do not want anything unreasonable. During the last 15 years a great deal of agricultural capital has been lost; land has fallen in value, and the capital of the farmer has been lost. That cannot go on.
Sir Francis Acland: Can my right hon. Friend explain to us how it is possible to stabilise prices at a reasonable level without subsidies?
Mr. Lambert: I would do it by means of an import levy. That was the policy of the Government two years ago. It is precisely the principle of the Wheat Act, and it seems to me to be quite reasonable.
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I was at the Devon Agricultural College on Saturday and met many representative agriculturists from Cornwall and Devon. They complained most bitterly that the position of agriculture was precarious because of an absolute shortage of labour. This flight of labour from the land shows that agriculturists have no confidence. During the last War we imported our foodstuffs largely from America and Canada. Now, we should not be in a position to import them from America. I read the other day some remarks by Lord Catto, the head of the Purchasing Board in the United States and Canada during the War and he said quite clearly that, while we had paid for them in the early part of the War by means of private loans, in the latter part of the War they were paid for by Government loans borrowed from the United States, that those loans to-day were in default and that by the Johnson Act no loans could be granted to any Government that was in default. Therefore, if trouble should come—pray God it may not—it will not be the submarine so much as finance which will prevent us getting foodstuffs from the rolling plains in America and Canada. I do not know how we are going to pay for imports, because the export trade will be stopped.
For £100 that we are spending on armaments, we are only spending a penny on provisions. The disproportion is tremendous. I was asked just now what my remedy is. It is precisely the same as the Government have applied to iron and steel. There are no subsidies there and no one complains that the iron and steel trade has protection. There has been great prosperity. The coal trade is not free to-day. The chairman of the Gas Light and Coke Company states that the coal trade is operating under schemes which enact that the control of coal, buying and selling, shall be vested in district coal boards, and all the boards are composed exclusively of coalowners. What would the hon. Member say if I asked that imports of food should be regulated by the landowners?
Mr. T. Williams: I do not agree with the mine-owners having monopolistic powers either.
Mr. Lambert: They enjoy it under an Act passed by the Labour Government. Sir George Milne-Watson says:
"The district coal boards are free to fix whatever prices they like for their coal and

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to discriminate as they please between one customer and another. Prices need have no relation to costs and profits are in no way controlled."
When we come along and ask for a little help for agriculture, the miners' Members come down against us. I do not think it is quite fair. If we are going to be comrades, let us be comrades all along the line. I do not ask for anything like that, but I do ask for stable prices. If the control by the coalowners increased the price of coal by 2S. 6d. a ton, that would amount to something like £30,000,000 of subsidy, and I do not hear anything about it, but when some small sum is paid out to agriculturists, I hear a considerable amount. I will not pursue the argument. I only mentioned the matter in asking hon. Members representing mining constituencies to be a little charitable to their agricultural brothers. I have never said a word against the miners. I regard them as one of the most hardworking sets of men in the whole country.
The subsidy on lime and slag is good, but unless the crop that is going to be produced by the lime and slag will be productive, the lime and slag will not be used. The fertility of the soil is most important, but if the price that the farmer can get for his produce is reasonable, he will manure his own land. Farmers will rush to carry on any part of their industry at the earliest moment that they see a profit. Improvements are possible. I know it from my own experience in my own county, and even on my own farm. I have increased the productivity of the land enormously, not only by slag, but by good seeds, but it has not been done with any profit. If we could have stable prices, the whole agricultural condition would be transformed. I hope this is the last of these subsidies. I do not like them. They prejudice the farmer. It is always said that farmers get a million here and a million there but they are never satisfied. There is no body of men who work harder and know their job better and get such little remuneration as agriculturists. Look at the smallholders that one knows so well, working 10, 12 and 14 hours every day and five or six on Sunday, and they can only barely make a living. That is not fair play.
I welcome my right hon. Friend's proposals, but I think he is proceeding on
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the wrong lines. I had hoped that the Government by now would have given up this policy of subsidies. After all, they are weakening the Exchequer. If they had levies, as they had under the Wheat Act, which would enable reasonable prices to be maintained, the Exchequer would be relieved and the agricultural community would benefit. Yesterday we had a proposal to increase the Exchange Equalisation Account by £200,000,000. I do not know what is going to happen to the future of prices. The economists all differ. A large production of agricultural commodities is the best insurance against being bled by over-sea producers. I was in Canada in 1929 when the Canadians were holding up their wheat. They did not mind how much they made the British consumer pay. I do not want prices to rise as they did during the War—that would be intolerable—and I do not want them to fall so that the producer shall not be able to live. Those are the thoughts that come into my mind. What I wish the Government to do is to provide an ample supply of home-grown food at a reasonable price.
5.43 p.m.
Mr. W. Roberts: The right hon. Gentleman has expressed himself very strongly as against subsidies, but the agricultural community has benefited from subsidies and, in brushing them aside, the right hon. Gentleman does not fully appreciate the value that agriculturists have obtained. I much prefer that the assistance given to agriculture should be by subsidy, because a subsidy out of taxation does, at least, weigh on the shoulders best able to bear it. The levy subsidy not only raises the price of imports, but the price of the whole commodity, especially in livestock products. The market for such articles as butter and eggs is very elastic and is easily reduced by increased prices, and a subsidy makes it possible for the consumer to have an ample quantity of these products while the producer gets a more remunerative price. That is one of the considerations which we hope the Minister really took into consideration in introducing this section of his long-term policy.
I shall have a word to say in a moment about the subsidy on lime and basic slag. That is certainly a subsidy of a rather different type, because it makes possible the production of food at a cheaper rate.

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It will assist the farmer to reduce his costs of production. The other subsidies which are proposed in this Resolution are of a different sort; they propose to guarantee a price to the farmer. I have very considerable sympathy with the farmer at the present time, especially the farmer in the North, where he has grown oats, and in other districts where he has grown barley right through the slump, in that, after the most insistent demands that his case should be met, the Government eventually gave way by guaranteeing a price which has already been obtained as a result of the general revival in prices all over the world. The oat grower and the barley grower may justly feel aggrieved that the Government have at last ceded his case of a right to some consideration at a time when his position has improved somewhat and the assistance has become not a subsidy but an insurance for the future against a fall in prices.
We on these benches feel that the farmer, as we often prophesied, has not received the benefits he expected to get from the adoption by this country of a protectionist system. We have always warned the farmer that he would not do so, that the real benefit of protection would go to the industrialists, and that his claims would be only very secondary to those of the manufacturer in this country. The whole history of protection in this country since 1931 proves that contention of ours up to the hilt. We feel that if that is true, the farmer is entitled to some other form of advantage and assistance. I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the subsidy is not in that case the best way of assisting the farmer, that it increases his income, that it does not raise the price to the consumer and that it does enable him to keep up production. The outlook for farmers at the moment has somewhat changed, and it is only fair to note that prices have risen considerably in the last six months. I have no doubt that the Government will take the credit for this improvement when it is fully realised. I do not believe that this is due to the policy of the Government. The rise recently is demonstrably due to world causes, which have created a rise in prices in all primary raw materials as well as in other materials. Taking April of this year and comparing it with April of last year, the rise is about 17 points, and last year's April figure was
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approximately four points over the previous year. A study of the figures will show that there has been a slow but steady rise now for some time in wholesale prices.
It is worth pointing out that in addition to that the cattle and wheat subsidy only adds an additional three or four points to the index number. In other words, the rise in world prices is of infinitely greater importance to the farming community than the subsidies which will no doubt be claimed as the source of the slightly easier position in which farmers may find themselves shortly. I am convinced that the rise in prices which we are witnessing at the present time is mainly due to the increased purchasing power and the increased demand of the consumer. This is not an opportunity to go into the causes of that, but it suggests that the claim that we have so constantly made, that imports are not the only influence on the prices of home-produced farm produce but that purchasing power—and chiefly the purchasing power of the working men in this country—is of more importance.
I now come to the greater detail of the livestock policy, and I am not sure whether the Minister has stated how much the subsidy for lime and basic slag is actually estimated as costing. It may not be in order to express regret that the subsidy on basic slag is confined to this form of phosphates. In parts of England the mineral phosphates which are imported are of equal, and in many cases of greater, value as fertilisers than low-grade basic slag. The ingrained protectionist spirit of the present Government is going to prevent the farmer and the land having the advantage of cheaper supplies of phosphates from whatever source they come. The concentration upon basic slag alone may tend to encourage the farmer to use a type of manure which is not necessarily the most efficient manure for his job, and that public money will be used to encourage the use of the home-produced by-product of the steel industry when, from the point of view of agriculture, another manure would serve the purpose better. I regret that prejudice in favour of basic slag alone, because it is a home-produced product, should cause any such circumstances to arise.
Mr. Price: What are the alternatives which the hon. Gentleman suggests?
Mr. Roberts: The alternatives very largely used in the North of England, with which I am familiar, are mineral phosphates which are imported and in some circumstances super-phosphates. In many places these imported mineral phosphates give better results than slag in producing white clover.
I am going again to make a plea that the subsidy for tile drainage should be reintroduced. There is a feeling in all parts of this Committee that that should be clone. There is a subsidy in Scotland which is to be increased, and there are in the distressed areas subsidies for tile drainage, and there is to be increased subsidy for main arterial drainage to the lesser drainage boards. This may assist the south and east of England, but the west and the north want field drainage with Tiles. There does not seem to be any logical reason whatever why, if a farmer who happens to have land in Dumfries or Roxburgh or Berwickshire should be able to get a subsidy to drain the land, and the farmer who lives in part of Northumberland or part of Cumberland, which is not in a distressed area, should be able to get no subsidy to increase the value of his land. It is useless to encourage farmers to use lime and phosphates unless the land is properly drained; it would simply be throwing money away. I press again that this problem, which specially affects the northern and western counties, should be reconsidered by the Minister of Agriculture.
We all welcome the proposals for disease control, but the Minister rather surprised me in his remarks about the reorganisation which is proposed with regard to the veterinary services of the country. There are at present several types of authority or organisation which may in some cases deal with this question. There are the counties, some of which have veterinary officers and some have not; there are the farm institutes, which even though they have no veterinary officers do a considerable amount of research work, and take a very important part in propaganda for the general enlightenment of farmers on animal diseases; and, lastly, there is the Ministry itself. The local authorities have up to now had to carry out the administration of the Milk and Dairies Order. I do not fully understand from the Minister whether the administration of the Milk and Dairies
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Order under the 1922 Act is to be taken over from the local authorities and centralised under veterinary officers, who are to carry out the work on behalf of the Government direct.
The varying conditions to which the Minister referred could not, I thought, refer to anything else than the conditions with regard to cow byres under the Milk and Dairies Order. If I have understood him I take it that it is the new services under this particular Resolution which are to be carried out by a staff of voluntary officers directly responsible to the Ministry. On the whole we shall welcome that, and we hope that the new attested herd regulations will be more effective than the old ones. But in that connection I should like to ask a question. One notices that Section 9 of the Act of 1934 is to be repealed, and I am wondering whether, under the new proposal, it will be possible to do something which I and many of those who know the breeding districts of this country very much hope will be possible, and that is to give encouragement in some form to those breeding farmers who do not in fact sell milk.
Under the attested herd scheme the main encouragement is the 1d. per gallon which the farmer may get on his milk, but there are many farmers in the high-lying districts who concentrate on breeding stock, and some encouragement should be given to them to clear their herds of tuberculosis. The farms of Ayrshire are most of them in the milk business, but the farms of Cumberland and of the West country and the Welsh counties are reservoirs of breeding stock, and there ought to be some means of encouraging the man who does not sell milk to clear his herd of tuberculosis, so that he may provide the dairyman with cattle free of tuberculosis. I hope that under the new procedure it may be possible to give that encouragement. The Minister spoke with disapproval of the flying herd. Let me recommend for his encouragement the man who has had the same breeds of stock on his farm, sometimes for generations, not only of cattle but of farmers.
Another question to which the Minister referred calls for attention. He said that under the Diseases of Animals Act no account was taken of county boundaries. That reminded me of the fact that my

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county is still greatly inconvenienced by the fact that county boundaries are taken into consideration in the administration of a large part of the work under the Diseases of Animals Act, namely, the work in connection with sheep scab. I believe the Ministry's veterinary officers and the county veterinary officers have established beyond doubt that the county boundary is not really the right boundary for dealing with sheep scab, and I hope that under the new procedure the county boundary will not be taken into consideration.
I should like to support these proposals so far as they will encourage a better system of grassland farming and thereby encourage livestock, which some of us have always maintained is the backbone of British farming. Before the slump came, before 1930, there was a great campaign to get help for the arable farmers, the wheat growers, and some of us felt then as we feel to-day that it is the livestock farmer who should really be encouraged. With regard to the argument that livestock farming does not necessarily employ as many men as arable farming, I would point out that if we take Cheshire and Norfolk. per 100 acres, there are more men employed in Cheshire than in Norfolk, whereas in Cheshire the proportion of arable land is only one-half of that of Norfolk.
A good system of grassland farming does employ men. By a good system I mean a good system on rotation, under which you have temporary grass on which the cattle and sheep can be fed or grazed, and where milk and meat can be prdouced, and on which pigs and poultry can be kept, but which is ploughed up from time to time in order to grow arable crops which are required to be consumed on the farm. That kind of grassland farming is the type of farming which keeps the land in a high state of fertility, which employs a large number of men, certainly as large a proportion as mechanised arable farming employs, and it is a system which, as the Minister pointed out, can be made to grow cereals if necessary in time of war. The real trouble with grassland farming is that it is so unequal. The best grassland probably produces three times as much food as the average land and ten times as much as the worst.
I doubt whether these particular proposals which the Minister has put for-
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ward are going to do very much to deal with one of the greatest problems of British farming, and that is the enormous acreage of rough grazing, amounting to nearly one-third of the whole area. This could be enormously improved by the use of phosphates and lime, together with the use of the plough. The land could be ploughed up and resown straight away. In the last few days I have seen crops grown very successfully on land which was first broken by ploughing up and reseeding it with grass. The manures are only one side of the problem. There is now the problem of grass drying, which may or may not be a solution of agricultural difficulties. My feeling is that the artificial drying of grass is going to be a very valuable contribution to the redevelopment of British agriculture, but it requires its own difficult technique and there is not yet much known about that technique.
The man who is improving his grassland is up against certain difficulties, and one of those difficulties is that if he improves his grassland it will carry more stock and that will require a greater capitalisation of his farm. He will also need more capital if he is going to buy grass-drying plant. I cannot agree with the Minister that by encouraging the growth of good temporary grassland in this country we are going to diminish the amount of animal foodstuffs which are needed and which are imported into this country. The experience that I have had of farms goes to prove that as you improve the temporary grass you increase enormously the stock-carrying capacity of the farm. You must then carry more stock, which requires more capital, and you require to buy more feeding stuffs, some of which are imported.
That brings me to one further question, and that is that the farmer to-day has not the capital to stock his land properly, and no grassland policy is complete unless it includes much better facilities for credit than the farmer has at the present time. For these reasons I can give only a partial welcome to this policy. The Minister disarmed our criticism by denying that this is his long-term policy. If it is not his long-term policy, where is his long-term policy? Perhaps he will say that this is a section of his long-term policy and that he will be dealing shortly with pigs and the amendment of the milk

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marketing scheme, which are long overdue. We give a qualified welcome to the proposals, especially in so far as they will increase the efficiency of the grasslands of the country, but I do not think that this policy is really worthy of the great problem which exists. It is a problem which can partly be solved by Government help. But it also requires a great effort on the part of the farmers themselves. We can by the development of our grasslands and by modern scientific improvement produce more food for the consumer and more of those foodstuffs which the scientists tell us the consumer is most in need of at the present time.
Without going into the vexed question of whether or not there is widespread malnutrition in this country, I think one thing is absolutely certain, and that is that if the purchasing power of the consumer was raised, he would consume far more butter, eggs and beef, the product of the livestock industry.
Mr. Turton: What about home-produced eggs?
Mr. Roberts: He has not increased his consumption of foreign or Dominion eggs. In the last few years he has very greatly diminished his consumption of foreign and Dominion eggs and increased his consumption of home-produced eggs.
Mr. Turton: Is it not a fact that the increase in the consumption of foreign eggs last year was from 18,000,000 long hundreds to 24,000,000 long hundreds. The hon. Member wants that policy to be increased.
Mr. Roberts: I qualified my statement by saying, over a period of years. In the last 10 years—I have not figures by me—the consumption of home-produced eggs has greatly increased. Ten years ago the consumption of foreign eggs represented 50 per cent. and to-day only about 25 per cent. of the total supply. That improvement in the production of home-produced eggs was done without one single bit of assistance either from this Government or any other Government. It was done by the efficiency and enterprise of the British poultry farmers, built up by cheap feeding stuffs. A large part of the present Government's policy having been devoted to raising the price of feeding stuffs, the British poultry farmer does
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not find himself in such a good position to-day as he was.
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Is it not a fact that feeding stuffs are bought in this country at well below the price of production in the countries from which they come?
Mr. Roberts: It entirely depends upon whose cost of production it is. Maize and wheat can be produced in Argentina and on the prairies of Canada and the United States at quite a different price from that at which it can be produced in this country. They are still producing maize and wheat at that price. We got the advantage for the British poultry farmer, with the result that we have seen the increase in the proportion of home-produced eggs which I have indicated. Now we have to face the fact that, partly as the result of the Government's policy and partly as the result of tariffs on imported feeding stuffs, the prices of imported and other feeding stuffs have gone up about 33⅓ per cent. I believe that the outlook for the livestock farmer is dark on account of the fact that he has adjusted himself to the low cost of feeding stuffs. The dairy farmer can perhaps just manage to produce milk at the present low prices when feeding-stuff prices are low, but cannot do so if feeding-stuff prices rise. This policy of the Government of raising cereal prices and taxing the imports of animal feeding stuffs is going to hit the majority of British farmers and one of the most important sections of the farming community in this country.
There are all kinds of fundamental issues still unsettled. I am glad, however, that the Minister has repudiated the suggestion that this is the long-term policy. The real problems still exist. There is the problem of land tenure, which is intimately connected with the question of credit. The old landlord used to provide the credit, but he does not do so now. There is the problem of distribution; and in many countries the costs of distribution are much less than they are in this country. There is the problem of providing the consumer with a really adequate supply of milk, eggs and vegetables. These problems are hardly touched by the proposals we are now considering, and, therefore, while we can give a qualified support to the proposals, we feel that

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there is still much which we hope the Minister will be able to consider in the future.
6.17 p.m.
Sir Malcolm Barclay-Harvey: I do not want to detain the Committee for any great length of time, but before I deal with one or two points in connection with the Resolution, may I say a word on one or two of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) in his opening speech? I do not want to misrepresent the hon. Member, but it seems to me that his attitude was, by all means let us produce cattle, poultry and pigs, because they are human food, but do not let us produce animal food. How can we produce animals in this country if we do not also produce something for them to live upon? He attacked the Government's proposal to give a guaranteed price for oats and barley. May I point out to the Committee that in the North-East of Scotland these are essential crops if we are to maintain the land in a proper state of cultivation? We cannot grow wheat, and we cannot put out our land to grass for long periods. The land must be ploughed up, there must be a rotation of crops. It is, therefore, necessary in my part of the country to grow more oats and barley than can be consumed on the farm. It is an absolutely sound policy, so far as Scottish agriculture is concerned, to put more land not less under oats and barley, because it will mean that the land is kept in good order. If it is put into grass it rapidly deteriorates in a few years. Therefore, I welcome a guaranteed price for oats, and in regard to what was said by the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) I think 24s. is a good price and one with which we need not quarrel.
The hon. Member for the Don Valley said that 80 per cent. of the oats grown was consumed on the farm. I am not clear on what basis the hon. Member reckoned his percentage, but perhaps he was referring to the oats used as between one farmer and another. The man who uses oats as food for his poultry is not the man who produces it, and while it may be all very well for the poultry producer to get cheap oats, it is very unfortunate for the man who produces the oats to have to be content with a cheap price. About 40 per cent. of the oats
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and barley grown are consumed off the farm, and perhaps that is the basis on which the Minister has fixed the amount at two quarters per acre. We feel grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having done this for us. I have been in the oats battle as long as most people, and I am glad that we are going to get justice as between one man and another. I should like to be quite clear as to how the scheme is going to work. I think that it will rather react against us in Scotland, not for us. The price in the North-East of Scotland is usually some shillings per quarter lower than it is in England and in South Scotland, and if we have to wait until the average British price is ascertained, weighted as it is to be by the total area in each country with more oats grown at a higher price in England and less oats grown at a less price in Scotland, we may actually have to wait for our subsidy, although we require it most, until the price has risen to a certain level in England where the subsidy is not really so necessary. I regret that the Minister could not make a special price value for the North-East of Scotland, because that is a part of the country which needs it most and which should have it first. I am not saying that you can always ensure an exact and fair amount to each part of the country, but in that way you would give most to the people who are most in need.
As regards the question of animal diseases, I congratulate the Minister on what he has done. It is one of the most important things that have been done for agriculture for a long time. It has been hotly contested in Scotland as to whether it should be under central control in London or whether there should not be some control in Edinburgh. There is a great deal to be said on both sides, but I am much impressed by the arguments in favour of central control, and I think the Minister has done the right thing. But I should like to put forward a plea, with which I think everyone in Scotland would associate himself, that we should have a strong liaison in Edinburgh, because we want to feel that what is being done in London is done with the full knowledge of what is going on in Scotland. When one is a long way from London one is inclined to think that the control is in the hands of people who see things through entirely English eyes, and if we had a strong liaison officer in

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Edinburgh it would make us much happier, and we should feel that centralised control in the matter of the administration of animal diseases is absolutely essential.
I was glad to hear what the Minister had to saw about part-time local veterinary services. That has been causing us a great deal of anxiety for some time. In the County of Aberdeen we have an efficient veterinary service and I hope it will not suffer; indeed, I understand that it will not. In the White Paper there is a reference to the various animal diseases which it is proposed to tackle. I entirely support that suggestion, but I hope it is not exclusive. There is such a thing as grass sickness in horses, from which we have been suffering for a long time. It is one of the most devastating diseases which agriculture has suffered for many years.
The Minister made a reference to a grant being made for sea walls. When the Minister comes to reply I hope he will give us a little more information about that, because I can conceive several cases where grants might be made for a sea wall which would be of great value indeed to the community in the neighbourhood. May I say, in conclusion, that I think the Minister has tackled this problem in the right way? He is tackling what has been causing us a great anxiety, that is a feeling that the fertility of the land has been going down. He has attacked the problem from that end, and it is the right way. He has given us what is only a measure of justice in a guaranteed price for our oats and barley, and he is attacking the serious problem of animal diseases. The hon. Member for North Cumberland could give only a half-hearted support to the proposals because he says they do not go far enough. I can give them my wholehearted support. This is not a long-term policy. Indeed, I wish we could get out of the idea of calling for a long-term policy. You cannot have one policy for agriculture. It contains so many things under one umbrella that a policy which is applicable to one section of the industry is not equally applicable to another. Let us tackle each policy on its merits, and if we do not ask for the moon we can agree that the Minister has produced something which is worth while on this occasion.
6.28 p.m.
Mr. Price: I do not suggest that we should have a policy which will cover all the evils of agriculture in one Measure or even in a series of Measures, but I do feel that the policy which the Government have brought forward in this Financial Resolution, like much of its agricultural policy, is like Joseph's coat, a thing of many colours. It has bright patches in it, and it has soiled patches in it. I will say at the outset that there are several bright patches in the Financial Resolution. First and foremost there is the lime and slag programme, which deserves the support of this Committee and of agriculturists in the country. I think it may have important effects in fighting animal diseases, because there is very little doubt that many of these diseases are due to a lack of minerals, and the latest discoveries of veterinary science seem to show that many of these diseases can be eliminated or their incidence reduced by bringing to animals minerals in an organic form. It will take many years for the minerals to be absorbed into the vegetation; it is not a thing which can be dealt with in one year or two. It is a long-term policy and I think the Government have taken the right step. It is a very old problem.
Long ago there was a great Latin writer who evidently knew something about slagging. The Minister of Pensions pulled me up the other day when I ventured into the dangerous waters of a classical quotation. He was right, because I had got the wrong author, although I had the right quotation. But let me point out that 2,000 years ago Virgil in the "Georgics" knew something about slagging: "Arida tantum ne saturare fimo pingui pudeat sola, neve effetos cinerem immundum jactare per agros." I believe that it means, "Don't be afraid of feeding the dried soil with rich dung or of scattering grimy ashes over the exhausted fields." That was the kind of slagging known to the Romans in Virgil's day, and the right hon. Gentleman is to be congratulated on the fact that 2,000 years afterwards he is carrying on that policy.
With regard to slagging and liming, I agree with the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. Roberts) that it will raise other problems which the Government will have to tackle. The manuring of pastures will increase—indeed, improvements in recent years in the

1853
management of pastures have already increased—the yield of the pastures, and that will raise at once the question of restocking the land and increasing the livestock on the land. The yield from the pastures, as things are at present, is only a maintenance ration, and as every agriculturist knows, a maintenance ration, both for dairy stock and for feeding stock, is not enough, and must be supplemented by a feeding ration.
Unless there is some method by which we can convert grass from these improved pastures into valuable products which will compete with imported feeding stuffs, we shall not have solved the problem; we shall simply have largely increased the maintenance ration values of the pastures without having done anything to solve the problem of imported feeding stuffs. Consequently, it seems to me that the Government will have to go further into the question of what can be done to popularise and cheapen the conversion of grass into new products, such as dried grass, which can compete with imported feeding stuffs. If that is not done, we shall have an enormous quantity of hay produced in this country, and even if the problem of credits for the farmers so that they may increase the stock on the land is solved, there will still remain the question of the increased quantity of feeding stuffs which is imported.
With regard to animal diseases, to which I have already referred, I am glad that the Government propose to deal with bovine tuberculosis on the basis of areas. When in the United States of America three years ago, I was very much struck by the progress which they have made in this matter. Naturally the problem is different in America; they have very wide areas, and the cow population is less dense than it is here, so that infectious contacts are less. For many years past, the principle in America has been that each State should deal with this matter, and by this method they have in several cases completely ridded the whole State of any sign of bovine tuberculosis. In this country we have done practically nothing in this direction, but at last something is to be done. I am glad that the veterinary services are to be brought under a more central control, but at the same time, there is an invaluable private veterinary service in this country which is of tremendous assistance to farmers and which I hope will not be jeopardized
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in any way by anything which is done under this scheme.
I will deal now with the other side of the Government's policy. I have spoken of the bright patches, but I am afraid there are dark patches in that policy where my hon. Friends and I are not in agreement with the Government. On more than one occasion I have suggested that any State assistance to the agricultural industry must be accompanied by three conditions: first, efficiency of production; secondly, public control to see that there is efficiency; and thirdly, a guarantee of a steady improvement in the conditions of agricultural labourers. In regard to the last of these three conditions, we do not see anything in the Government's policy. As my hon. Friends will be moving an Amendment dealing with that, I will not enlarge on it now. However, with regard to paragraphs 2 and 3, with which I am more concerned at the moment, I think the time has come to review the whole question of whether, and if so, how, we should give State assistance to the growing of cereals in this country. Is it a sound policy to encourage a large amount of cereal-growing in this country? Certainly, from the point of view of making the country safe in time of war, I cannot see the wisdom of trying to grow large quantities of cereals.
Thanks to our climate, our agriculture is far better suited to livestock, which is dependent upon cheap imported feeding stuffs. We have a Navy on which we are spending a very considerable amount of money, and I believe that in the event of war, the Navy would be in a position to keep the big oceans open to our seaborne commerce. That would be the main task of the Navy in time of war, and if that task were carried out, it would mean that we should be able to have commercial contact with the Continent of America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, and it would be from these countries, particularly the American Continent, that we should be guaranteed our supply of cereals and a part of our meat imports. Our cereals will not be in danger, provided we have command of the seas.
There are then what are termed, I believe, the Narrow Seas—the North Sea and the Baltic. It is across those seas that we get our dairy produce, our bacon and our poultry produce, and it is here,

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I believe, that the Navy would not be so sure of being able to keep the seas open to our commerce in time of war. Therefore, it is all the more important that we should be able, in time of war, to depend entirely upon our own dairy produce—not only milk, but all the products which come from the milk—our pigs and our poultry. That means that we ought in time of peace to be building up large herds of livestock. In March of this year, there appeared in the "Times" a very interesting series of articles by no less an authority than Sir William Beveridge, who stressed the point which I am now putting to the Committee, that we should prepare for a time of war now, in time of peace, by being sure that we have a very large reserve of livestock, so that, if we were in difficulties, we could start to slaughter our dairy cattle in order to meet the emergency. All that seems to mean that we ought in time of peace to work for an increase in our livestock herds, and to enable that to be done by keeping our cereal prices low.
At the same time, I am willing to admit that a case can be made out for limited assistance by the State, under special conditions, to the cereal-growing industry. I am prepared to admit that there should be a minimum below which prices should not fall as far as the producer is concerned. There are parts of the country, particularly the light soils of East Anglia and the Downs of Berkshire, where the rainfall is low and the soil evaporation high, and there the costs are relatively low. In those parts the whole of the economy of the farmer is built up on the basis of a certain amount of cereal cultivation. Although the old four-course system has now been largely superseded, in certain parts of the country wheat is still quite an important factor in the agricultural industry.
There is, moreover, a social aspect of this matter. During the big slump from 1930 onwards, when the price of wheat was down to most abnormal level, the situation was very serious in places where the whole rural population was dependent on a certain amount of cereal-growing, and no Government could look on unmoved at a slump of that sort. Therefore, I feel that a case can be made out for what I would call a standard price for cereal products. I submit that in this
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respect there ought to be two guiding principles. In the first place, we ought to even out the fluctuations in prices which are due to world conditions over which the farmer has no control. Between 1930 and 1937, the price of wheat has fluctuated between 6s. 6d. a cwt. and 9s. 6d. a cwt. at the present time. That is largely due to world conditions. I think the Government should take some steps to stabilise prices and to prevent, or to even out, such fluctuations as far as possible.
The second guiding principle is that the Government should fix the price in such a way that it encourages only the best cultivators and only the producers on the land which is most suitable for wheat. That is precisely what the Wheat Act, 1932, does not do. I am afraid the price is fixed in such a way as to encourage all and sundry to grow wheat anywhere, and no premium is given to those who grow it on the most suitable soils and in the best way. It would not be easy to fix the price as I have suggested, but I think some attempt ought to be made. The Government ought to find out, first of all, what are the costs of producing wheat in different parts of the country. The costs are not static by any means, but vary very much, and new methods can reduce the costs very considerably in some districts. I understand that where tractors can be used over a very large area, the costs of producing wheat can be reduced to 6s. a cwt. I admit that that is only in a few favoured places, but even in the less favoured places the introduction of tractors has reduced by Is. and even by 2s. per cwt. the cost of production of wheat.
For 10 years past I have been growing wheat in Gloucestershire, and recently I looked up my costs of production over the last five years. I find that the cost varied considerably from one season to another. Last year it was 10S. per cwt., and with the aid of the subsidy I was just able to get home with a very small profit. In the year before the cost of production was 10s. 6d. and I made a small loss. In the year before that it was 14s., which meant a heavy loss but that was owing to the seeding conditions in the autumn. In the year 1933–34, on one patch, under very favourable conditions the cost of production went down to 7s. a cwt., which with the subsidy meant a very nice profit but

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in another year it went up to 12s. a cwt. owing to less favourable conditions which meant a heavy loss. All this worked out over the five years at an average cost of 10s. 6d. per cwt. which means a small loss even with the subsidy.
It may be that I am not managing properly, but I am more inclined to think that the land there is not really suited to wheat-growing as anything but a sideline. It may be that if I adopted other methods, I might be able to bring my costs down still further and I propose to continue trying, but I think that the land there is sub-marginal, as far as wheat is concerned, and that therefore the growing of wheat there ought not to be encouraged except as a side-line. There are two conditions on which we ought to insist in connection with the fixing of these prices. I think the farmer is entitled to be insulated against fluctuations of currency and of world supplies. He is entitled to be protected against conditions over which he has no control, but he is not entitled to protection against conditions over which he has control, and those conditions are the suitability or unsuitability of the soil, and the efficiency or inefficiency of his methods. I am not satisfied that the Wheat Act, 1932, was sufficiently discriminatory in this respect. The Government have at their command the means of getting information as to costs of production of wheat in this country. I have given an example in my own case, but there are research stations throughout the country which have a lot of information on the subject. I should like to see that information collated for the purpose of seeing whether it is possible to fix a price below which wheat will not fall. This is a good opportunity for dealing with the matter as the whole question is now coming up for consideration.
Moreover, I see no reason why conditions should not be attached to the fixing of the price. I would like to see deficiency payments based on a sliding scale related to the yield per acre so as to encourage the wheat-grower to increase the yield per acre. That would eliminate the person who cannot get his yield per acre above a certain figure. I see no reason why such a system could not be worked out and I suggest it, at any rate, as a line of research. When the Wheat Act was being considered in March, 1932, my hon. Friends on these benches took
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up the very attitude which I have indicated. My hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) moved an Amendment to limit the time of the operation of the quota and to introduce sliding-scale payments which would gradually come down as the years passed. He received important support from the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) and according to the OFFICIAL REPORT which I looked up a day or two ago, the then Minister of Agriculture, who is no longer I think a Member of this House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh yes he is!"]—I beg his pardon—the right hon. Gentleman who was then Minister of Agriculture said:
"We desire to see the most modern methods of dealing with the problem pursued. We desire that the farmers should try by every means in their power, and we believe the Bill will encourage them, to market their produce under the most economical methods and to produce their wheat in the best form."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2IST March, 1932; col. 751, Vol. 263.]
I fear those optimistic anticipations have not been realised. I cannot see that improvement in wheat cultivation throughout the country which the right hon. Gentleman indicated. I have noticed in several districts a tendency merely to get the deficiency payments, and not to trouble too much about methods. Agricultural labourers have complained to me that where they were formerly kept employed all the year round, they are now turned off for months in the winter-time. They are taken on casually for haymaking and harvesting and at seeding time but for a large part of the year they are unemployed. I think steps should be taken such as the one I have already suggested, to encourage proper cultivation. We should insist upon the yield being up to a certain standard. At present it is possible to get the subsidy without troubling about the yield.
There is another reason why I am not satisfied with the working of the Wheat Act, 1932, and why I oppose its extension in this Resolution. I am not satisfied that it is being worked properly in relation to the millers. There is no control over millers' costs and margins. I happen to know that before the Labour Government left office in 1931, Lord Addison had negotiated an agreement with the millers and intended to introduce a Measure to stabilise the price of wheat at a certain figure, while seeing to it that

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millers' margins were properly controlled and their costs examined. Unfortunately, he did not remain in office and had not the opportunity of operating the policy which he was then working out. Some of those who opposed him at that time supported the Wheat Act, 1932, although it did riot contain the necessary control over millers' costs and margins.
Referring to the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Debates in March, 1932, I find that attempts were made by some of my hon. Friends on these benches to amend the Measure on those lines. My hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) moved an Amendment to secure the audit by Government auditors of the millers' accounts in connection with the Wheat Fund, but that Amendment was not carried. If the millers are given the advantage of a scheme which more or less stabilises prices as far as they are concerned, they ought to submit to a more effective form of public control than exists at present. The same thing applies in the case of wheat and barley. I understand that Lord Addison at that time was making a similar effort as regards barley. He was proposing to negotiate an agreement with the brewers, to stabilise the price as far as they were concerned, in order to stabilise the price for the farmer at the other end and to work generally on the principle of a standard price.
We have nothing of that kind in paragraphs (2) and (3) of the Resolution, and I fear that what happened in the case of the meat subsidy may happen again in this case. The meat subsidy was to a large extent dissipated by the heavy fall which took place in meat prices. The farmer never got the advantage which he ought to have got and at the other end the consumer got no advantage, and there was strong reason to believe that most of it went to those who handled the produce in its transit from the farmer to the consumer. I fear that in connection with this proposal to subsidise wheat and barley growing the same thing may happen. The price of Scottish oats may sag and although that would be very nice for the buyer of oats for feeding the Scottish farmer will not get any advantage because there is not that control over the corn trade which there ought to be, if you are to interfere with the natural course of prices. If you start on the
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principle of standard price it ought to be applied, not only to the operations of the producer but to all the various stages through which the product passes to the consumer. The Government have no water-tight agreement with the corn trade to stabilise oat prices, or with the brewers to stabilise barley prices. They have only "gentlemen's agreements," and the farmers have been complaining for a long time of the so-called "gentlemen's agreement" with the brewers.
For those reasons my hon. Friends and I cannot see our way to support paragraphs (2) and (3) of the Resolution. We wish to see something much more effective for the protection of the consumers' interests. Moreover, we do not think it wise at the present time indiscriminately to increase cereal growing in this country when many thinking persons are of the opinion that it is on livestock and livestock products that our main concentration should take place. If assistance is to be given to cereal growing, it should be discriminatory and scientific; and it should aim at giving just that relief which is needed to those districts where cereal growing is by reason of climatic and geographical conditions an essential part of the economy of the area. For these reasons, although there is much which is to be commended in the Government's policy, I should like to see the bright patches in this Joseph's coat of many colours brought out and the dark patches eliminated.
7.1 p.m.
Major Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith: These proposals must commend themselves to the Committee if only for one reason—that at long last, emerging from the experimental period through which we have been, we find a policy which has some real purpose, and that purpose is the health and the happiness of the land and those in the countryside. I was rather sorry that the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) suggested that the farmers were not concerned with the health of the land, but only with so using the land that they could make the most profit out of it. I do not think that that is so. It was a most unfair criticism.
Mr. T. Williams: The hon. Gentleman is rather misinterpreting what I intended to put to the Committee. I said that the average farmer is more concerned

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with his own balance sheet than agriculture as such or the nation, and I was suggesting that the Minister could encourage or discourage the individual farmer, or tens of thousands of farmers, to produce the wrong commodity by subsidising the wrong commodity. I was not saying that the farmer thought only of profits, but merely that he is more concerned about his individual balance sheet.
Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I thank the hon. Member for that explanation, but I hope that he will agree to this, that nothing would please the farmers better than if the Minister would judge his policy by saying, "Will this policy enable the farmer to farm the land as he knows it should be farmed?" The farmers have the knowledge and the skill in order to use the land in the right way and I hope that the Minister in future will make that the criterion of his policy. If he can answer, "Yes, it will improve the fertility of the soil, and enable farmers to farm properly," he will be on the right lines, but if he says that he is afraid that this will not do much for the land, but will be a sop to the farmers and keep them quiet, he will not be on right lines. It may seem surprising to many people that at this moment the Minister is bringing forward a policy dealing with fertility. We hear people saying, "All these millions have been spent on agriculture, and here you have the Government bringing forward this policy of fertility." The reason which has made the Minister embark on this policy, is that for years past the consumer has been buying cheap food, but buying it extremely dearly, because with every mouthful of that cheap food which he has been putting down his throat he has also been putting down a bit of the fertility of our soil. Now that we have realised that, the Minister, by concentrating on getting back that fertility, is doing the right thing. To-day he is presenting to the Committee a small bill for the damage which has been done to agriculture. Unfortunately, one always has to pay for the damage done, whether it has been done wittingly or unwittingly. This bill will by no means of itself pay for the damage that has been done, but it is a start and a foundation on which we can build for the future.
I am very concerned that this money, small though it will be, will not be wasted, and I would rather like to address myself
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to one or two matters where we may have waste unless certain other things are done to make the scheme all-embracing. First, with regard to the lime and slag, I believe that that is a good scheme as far as it goes. It cannot stand by itself. Two things have to be done before this can be complete. First, it must be made possible for the farmers to buy the lime and the slag, to pay the 50 per cent. and 75 per cent. as the case may be. They can only do that if they have money, and at this moment they are extremely short of capital. I do not know that the Committee quite realises how greatly in debt the farmers are to a great many people—the auctioneers, merchants of all descriptions, not to mention the banks. The one old source of credit, their landlord, has gone. You have the farmers with this millstone of debt round their necks, yet this policy does not to any degree offer the farmer any means of turning his overdraft into a credit balance. It is going to put nothing into his pocket. If he is to take advantage of nearly all these measures, he has got to seek to increase that overdraft and get more credit from somewhere. Therefore, I hope that we are going to have some hope of so getting a profit out of the undertakings that confidence will come back to the industry and credit will be obtained, and that the Minister will listen to our plea for an inquiry into the whole of the credit situation, and so try to relieve us of that burden.
If we are to take full advantage of this and there is to be no waste, the farmers have got to be able to follow up this application of lime and slag. The one way is by an application of good old-fashioned dung. This is an all important point, and one which I am sure the Minister realises. I would like to quote one paragraph from the Ministry of Agriculture Journal, that very valuable journal:
"… though ample supplies of farmyard manure will cover a multitude of sins against the old established practices of good husbandry, in the absence of dung the maintenance of the productivity of the soil is a much more difficult problem. In the long run the fertility of the soil is a reflection of the farming system which, if not itself sound, cannot be made permanently successful by any system of manuring."
I think that that is a very great truth. We have to get the livestock population there ready to produce the dung for us. The first Minister who will be able to claim real success for his policy will be

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that Minister who can say, "I got the sheep back on to the arable land, and I got the dung cart moving." If the farmers are to be enabled to grow three blades of grass where two are now, there will have to be the livestock there to eat that grass; there will have to be a profitable market for the extra produce, and the consumers must be able to buy that produce when we have produced it. The one thing that we want to avoid is seeing plenty of grass with a poverty of livestock. I believe that the Minister is fully aware of this, but perhaps we may have his assurance that he is going to deal with the question of profitable markets for our livestock, pigs and the whole range of goods which are still out in the cold.
As far as wheat is concerned, I am grateful to the Minister for what he has done in this line. I do not think that there is any doubt that a generous amount of land put down to wheat is absolutely essential to the welfare of the country both in time of peace and in time of war. I do not want to follow the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) in this, but I think he put forward a tremendous case for an increase in the wheat acreage, and also for an increase in the price. I was very pleased to hear the case coming from his side so strongly. Our one disappointment is that we have not increased the standard price. I do not think that the relation of 45s. a quarter to costs is a very real one. The costs of production have gone up considerably since 1932. Would the Minister consider calling together the Standard Price Committee with a view to trying to relate the costs and the amount which will be received in order to meet the present day needs? Probably that will mean an Amendment to the Wheat Act, but it would be one which would be most helpful to the arable districts.
As far as oats and barley are concerned, this is about the most disappointing of all the features of the proposals. The Minister started off this policy in such an extraordinarily good way. He said, "Let us away with all the tinkering, dealing with Agriculture in sections. Let us get down to fundamental things, the fertility and health of the land." Then error seems to have crept in, and the land is rather lost sight of. Those who qualify
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for wheat cannot also qualify for oats and barley. That seems as if it is going back to trying to give a sop to those who have not received in the past something which might keep them quiet, without reference to the land. I would have hoped that he would have taken the whole of the economy of the farm and linked it up, so that if there are abuses and farmers are doing wrong, they would be weaned away from bad practices and be enabled to get back to good husbandry.
I do not pretend to be able to speak about oats. Not being a Scotsman, I cannot quite appreciate the full situation there. But British barley growers feel that they have been forced into a mésalliance with Scotch oats, and they hope that they will get a divorce pretty early—certainly sooner than the five-year plan which may be coming out later. I can hardly believe that the Minister is satisfied with the proposals as they affect barley. I take heart from the fact that he realises, in spite of the Gentleman's Agreement with the brewers, that there is still a problem as far as barley is concerned which needs instant solution. In case anyone may think that the arable districts are doing too well, let me say that at this moment I believe they are facing one of the worst seasons they have had for years. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean has shown that there has not been much profit in growing wheat in his district. The Eastern counties can show that the 45s. has by no means enabled them to make sufficient money to stand the type of season they have had to face this year. The Committee will appreciate that when farmers get a bad season they must have some reserves on which to fall back and to carry them on to another season. The wheat position is not going to be good. The sugar beet situation is bad, too, and they are facing the prospect of a very bad crop. I think that the Eastern counties can look forward to a rather desperate winter.
Captain Briscoe: I farm in the Eastern counties and I look forward to one of the best years I have ever had. The prospects of the wheat crop are excellent.
Sir R. Dorman-Smith: I am speaking of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex, and I do not think they are very full of hope. I am glad to hear that in Cambridgeshire things are much better. I again ask the Minister to consider the

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question of the costs of production of this crop with the Standard Price Committee and see whether he can relate the price more to the actual costs which the farmer has to bear in producing it.
With regard to the milk regulations, I believe that the Minister is going to make it easier for milk producers to quality to come into the scheme for attested herds. If that be true and it eases up the conditions, it will probably mean that the Milk Board will have to face a formidable liability with regard to the payment of premiums and bonuses to those who qualify. I am not against getting the milk supply as fit as possible so that it will suit even the most fastidious of our doctor friends, but I suggest that the board can hardly afford to pay much more in the way of premiums because it can hardly afford to levy much more on the milk producers. The Government, I understand, intend to pay a bonus to the attested herds up to 1941, after which the Milk Marketing Board will have to pay it. The Minister, I think, has no idea how many producers may be able to come in to the attested scheme through the loosening up of the conditions, and it is rather unfair to expect the board to take on this unlimited liability, for it is certainly a thing the Government would never allow themselves to take on. If the T.T. producers, who have been outside the scheme and have contributed nothing to it, come in and get the bonus of 1½d. for being T.T. producers and 1d. for being in the attested scheme, they will be paying but little, probably nothing, towards the working of the milk marketing scheme, although they will have had great benefits out of it inasmuch as their liquid market has been saved from collapse.
Will the Minister consider extending the period of Government assistance to at least 1946, and will he, just before that period expires, review the whole situation of the attested scheme in the light of experience? It is too much to ask the board to impose more levies on the people who are not in the attested or the accredited schemes. The only way in which the board can pay these premiums is by making more levies. Owing to the Government's inability to deal properly with the imports of dairy produce, the board have had to get more out of the producers than any of us who tried to get
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over the milk marketing scheme ever expected. The Government have a great responsibility here, and I hope they will accept it. The proposal in regard to diseases of animals will be a grand crusade to which we can give the most hearty support. I can assure the Minister that he can rely on the co-operation of the farming industry. They believe that this is something well worth doing and they will do what they can to help.
I shall vote for all these proposals, and I shall do so with gratitude in my heart. It is not for the amount of money which is being given, but because I believe they show that the Minister realises the magnitude of the problem he has to tackle. He is going to seek to relieve agriculture of complete dependence on overseas supplies of feeding stuffs. We are in the most vulnerable position in regard to those supplies. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean spoke about cheap supplies of animal feeding stuffs, but you cannot always rely on them being cheap. Once you lose complete control over feeding stuffs the importers are liable to squeeze you hard. The hon. Member for North Cumberland talked about the tariff having a bad, effect on the price of animal feeding stuffs. If he will look at the course of prices, however, he will see that when the tariff was put on the prices came down, and I do not believe that if we took the whole of the 10 per cent. tax on feeding stuffs off now it would reduce the price at all. I am afraid that until we can get the independence which the Minister wants we shall be in a precarious position and we shall not be able to process imported feeding stuffs with the same joy as we have been doing in the last few years. I am sure that the Minister realises the position, and, realising it, will not fail to deal adequately with the oustanding problems of milk, pigs and poultry. I am sure that he will be able to deal with them and that in the near future we shall have a complete picture of what his policy is to be.
7.25 p.m.
Mr. Hopkin: Hon. Members sitting in all parts of the Committee will willingly support the Minister's proposal for the eradication of disease from herds and, in particular, will welcome and support the part of his proposal which deals with voluntary attestation. This House can be no better employed than in dealing

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with and supervising the question of the purity of milk. It is highly important that we should see that every step that can be taken is taken to ensure that the milk sold in this country is pure. The success of the Milk Marketing Scheme depends entirely on the amount of confidence that the board can instil into the public mind that the milk that it is selling is pure. This principle has been recognised for a long time in the county which I represent. There are in the whole country 260 attested herds, and of these 83 are in the county of Carmarthen. It is for that reason that the Minister's proposals are of vital interest to the farmers of West Wales, because they have helped themselves. Up to the present it has been very difficult to have a herd attested. It meant the minimum of two clean tests and that meant in time a minimum of one year. The Minister intends to make it easier for herds to be attested in two ways: first, in helping the farmer with the cost, and, second, in reducing the time between one test and another. The result will be that an enormous number of herds will become attested and a greater number of people will become entitled to the additional 1d.
I desire to reinforce the question which has been put to the Minister whether he would extend the time from 1941 to 1946 and say that he will share a part of the additional 1d. I support the idea of the attested area, and I dare prophesy that Carmarthen will have the first attested area in the country.
May I make a suggestion to the Minister? I know now that it is not possible to provide attested milk for the school scheme, because there is not enough, but surely it ought to be the first claim on the Minister as soon as possible to see that milk of the best quality and the highest purity is obtained by the school children before anyone else. I am glad to see that this scheme is joined up with a planned attack on contagious abortion. The only criticism there that I have to make is that the amount of money to be spent to tackle his terrible scourge is far too little, because £50,000 spread over four years is, in my opinion, hardly enough.
To leave that particular question, let me say that farmers are still waiting for the Minister who will stand at that box
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and say, "I want the home farmer to produce as much as ever his land will bear." I do not think the present Minister can make that claim, because by his very proposal to-day he is saying, "I will encourage the home farmer to produce so much," and that "so much" is far below the maximum that he can produce. To take milk as an illustration, the Minister knows that up to 31st March of this year the farmers are getting 0.07d. less per gallon of milk than they had for the previous year, and costs have been higher. Why is that? It is simply because the farmers have been able to produce 20,000,000 gallons more milk this year than they did last year, and the result of producing this increased amount is that they must be satisfied with a lower price.
May I ask the Minister why, if oats and barley are required for this country, he should fix the national standard acreage at 11/10ths, on an acreage that everybody knows this year is lower than the general average? The truth is that the Government have not decided what part agriculture should play in the national economy, and until they make up their mind on that question we are going to have these series of policies of bits and pieces, which deal, not with agriculture as a whole, but with parts and parts alone. I, personally, would like to encourage the farmer to produce as much as he possibly can, and it is for that reason that I welcome the proposals which deal with lime and basic slag. These proposals will undoubtedly help the hill farmer of West Wales, particularly on land which needs lime. I am glad to note this, that I believe that the 50 per cent. reduction will be on the price at the farm.
Mr. W. S. Morrison: It is proposed to pay half the cost of the lime and half the cost of the transportation to the farm.
Mr. Hopkin: I am obliged. I understood that, because many of the farmers in my district have already asked me whether that is so. Otherwise, the man who lives 10 or 15 miles from the kiln will be at a disadvantage as compared with the man who lives a mile or so away from the kiln. May I ask the Minister whether these schemes can be extended beyond 1940? In our district we have a number of kilns, particularly in the Black Mountain, which have been closed for some years, and I doubt very

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much whether any man will think it sufficiently profitable to open his kilns if the Minister says that in 1940 this scheme will come to an end. There are standards of quality, as we all know, for basic slag. Does the Minister propose to set up a standard quality for lime? I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts). He will not have forgotten that simply to use lime, and lime alone, will not do the land a great deal of good. I dare say the Minister will remember the couplet:
"Lime and lime without manure
Makes both farm and farmer poor."
There is one thing to which I would desire to draw the attention of the Committee, and that is that there is nothing in these proposals that deals with the question of price. I entirely agree with the point that was made by the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), when he said that the price that the farmer gets is the very essence of this problem. If the Committee will allow me, I think I can sum up what I have to say on this question by reading from the "Times" of last Monday a paragraph on the lines of which I cannot possibly hope to improve. The writer sets out quite clearly that these proposals, if taken alone and apart from price, are mere camouflage, and he states:
"The style of farming, either good or bad, that is practised by the majority will always depend on the incentive which market prices offer, and unless there is a reasonable prospect of a fair return on the production of milk and other livestock products, no amount of subsidy for liming and other soil fertility measures will ensure that the land is farmed to full capacity. It is important that this consideration, which is fundamental, should not be overlooked."
Farmers over and over again have told me that they do not want charity. They do not want lime at a price different from anybody else, and if the farmer now is crying out for a tariff, it is very largely the result of things which have been said in this House. The finger of scorn has been pointed at the farmer, and he has been told, "But think what you are having," whereas the same finger of scorn is not pointed at people who profit a great deal more from tariffs, particularly in the iron and steel trade. In my judgment, the very essence of the problem regarding agriculture now, apart altogether from what these proposals can do, is that
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the price to the farmer should be put right.
7.40 p.m.
Mr. Maxwell: I am very glad to hear a good agricultural speech, as we would expect, coming from the hon. Member who has just resumed his seat. Before I turn to the actual proposals before us, I would very much like to join issue with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire (Captain Briscoe). He may have the good fortune to be expecting magnificent crops this year, but I can assure him that in Norfolk—and I am reassured by my hon. Friends from neighbouring counties—that is not in the least the expectation.
Captain Briscoe: I said the Eastern counties.
Mr. Maxwell: Shall we say then that he should have said one of the Eastern counties? The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) made some remarks about the encouragement of cereal growing. As I come from the Eastern counties and represent a constituency where we grow a great number of cereals, I would like to say that I do not think the Navy or those responsible for our defence would be at all pleased to hear him suggest that in time of war we could readily get our foodstuffs from across the Atlantic. That may be so. He said that we have the command of the sea and could easily do it, and I hope he is right, but at the same time it would be a great strain on the Navy to have to exert half its strength in convoying foodstuffs across the Atlantic, when it might be urgently required elsewhere.
I would like also to point out that it is certainly possible to encourage the increased production of livestock at the same time as having a policy for cereals. I know that the farmers in Norfolk are not in the least wedded to a system of mechanised farming and enormous areas of wheat. In fact, they very much prefer the system of the rotation of crops, and there is no doubt that many more beasts could be fed there than are at the moment. The only reason for the introduction of mechanised farming was that the price of beef cattle did not support the cost of producing it, and therefore they had to find other methods of farming. I join with many other hon. Members in supporting whole-heartedly the

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principles which lie behind these proposals, and I would not be second to anybody in that, but my admiration for the principles and for the Minister who introduces them should not prevent me from pointing out one or two places where I think they are, to say the least of it, inadequate. When it comes to fertilising and drainage and the eradication of disease, we can have no fault whatsoever to find. That is obviously quite sane, and although the Minister dislikes the phrase "long-term policy," it does not only affect the amount of production of the land, but it will also eventually, I hope, very much affect the cost of production of our foodstuffs, and in that respect as in others one must very much welcome it.
But there is another factor in agriculture which must be equally if not more important even than that, and that is that we should know that we are going to get an assured price which will cover the cost of production. I know the Minister has told us—and I entirely accept it—that these proposals are only an instalment of others which are to come. I was delighted to hear him say that, because I think there has been a good deal of misapprehension among farmers who regard this, as the Minister said, as the only long-term policy. Of course, it can be nothing of the sort. At the same time, I do hope that the Minister will realise that it would not be a bad thing if he could, so to speak, fit as much as possible into one set of proposals. I hope he will not take too many bites at the cherry. For one thing, the Government may get tired of being asked to produce more money on a number of separate occasions, and the public may get a little bit tired of the cherries. The repetition of proposals such as this affects the attitude of the public towards farmers, because they are inclined to feel, every time they see the announcement in the papers "So much more for farmers" that the farmer is being spoiled, and if we can, as far as possible, get things all over at once it will be all to the good of agriculture.
The present Minister of Agriculture has an extremely good chance. There are two important factors on his side which were not available to the previous Minister. There is a Defence programme which contemplates proposals for increasing the produce of the land, and,
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further, there has been a rise in prices, though this latter factor is not altogether due to anything which the Government can claim to have done. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Petersfield (Sir R. Dorman-Smith) said that these proposals do not amount to much in cash value to the farmer, and I want to support that view. The wheat payment is a valuable cash contribution to the farmer, but, apart from that, there is nothing here which will increase the amount of money going into the farmers' pockets, at any rate for some time. I want to thank the Minister very much for the grants to internal drainage boards. Some of us were very anxious that such grants should be made, and I think they will be of tremendous benefit. The proposals respecting lime and basic slag are excellent as far as they go, and nobody can find fault with them, but it does occur to me that they will not be of any great advantage to those farmers whose soil does not require that form of fertiliser, and I should like the Minister to tell us why he cannot extend his contributions to other fertilisers besides lime and basic slag. To confine the assistance to those two may encourage a man to use the wrong form of fertiliser, and in any case it is a discrimination between a farm with one soil and another with a different sort of soil.
I cannot speak with any knowledge of oats, but, frankly, I do not think the barley proposals will be of any great value to farmers, at any rate those in my part of the world. To start with, they cannot get the subsidy on barley if they already get a payment under the wheat quota Act. It happens that nearly every farm of any size grows both wheat and barley, and as the wheat quota payment is so much more valuable than that proposed for barley it stands to reason that farmers will take the wheat payment in preference to the barley subsidy, and therefore will not actually gain at all by this proposal respecting barley. It is as though we were holding out the barley subsidy with one hand and then snatching it back with the other. It is almost what the American divorce courts would regard as mental cruelty. It is a case of starving your prisoner and then going outside his cage and holding a nice juicy strawberry just out of his reach—though a strawberry suggests an exaggerated idea of the barley subsidy proposals.

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Actually the value of the barley subsidy is low, whether farmers take it in the place of the wheat payment or not. It is based on a very low acreage, eleven-tenths of the present acreage, and, as is well known, the acreage of barley has gone down by something like 40 per cent. since 1914. Again, it is based on a price of 8s. per cwt., which nobody will pretend represents a price which covers the cost of production. Further, it is assumed that only six cwt. per acre are sold off the farm. My farming friends assure me that in my part of the country they sell about 14 cwt. off the farm. The average subsidy as paid for the past seven years is about 13s. 6d. an acre, which comes out at less than 1s. per cwt., and we cannot pretend this would be any use if prices were as low as they have been during the past few years.
The most important thing in connection with the Government's agricultural policy in the future will be to assure farmers by some means or other prices which will cover the cost of production. The most important reason why that should be done is that the labour problem is getting more intense every day. There is no question that agricultural wages will have to be higher in the near future if we are to keep enough labour on the land to produce the food we require, and I cannot see any other way of ensuring that than guaranteeing sufficiently high prices to cover the cost of production. The cost of production must be very clearly related to the cost of labour. It is all very well to fix a price for a commodity which is based on wages at a certain level; but shortly afterwards there is, quite naturally, a great agitation for increasing wages, and if they go up then the price fixed for the commodity no longer bears the same relationship to the cost of production. That is a problem which one meets every day in farming. If we want to see wages where they should be it will be essential to fix our basic prices in relation to the figure at which we wish to see wages.
There has been a feeling I know that farmers must not have subsidies. The right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) talked a great deal of his dislike of subsidies, but at the same time he was advocating a guaranteed price, and I cannot see how we can have a guaranteed price without some form of subsidy, State assistance, or whatever you
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like to call it, and whether you collect the money by a levy on imports or produce it from the Exchequer is neither here nor there. We are on all sides of the House more or less agreed that there is a national necessity for continuing agriculture and increasing agricultural production in this country and also that we must pay better wages to agricultural workers, and as we are agreed on those two points let us be logical and face the fact that in present circumstances we cannot secure those results without an adequate measure of assistance from the Government.
7.56 p.m.
Mr. Richards: The Minister made some references in the course of his speech deprecating the illusions which had been made to these proposals as constituting the long-term policy of the Government on agriculture, but it is inevitable that the question of the long-term policy should be brought up by successive speakers, and I agree with the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Maxwell) that it would be an advantage if the Minister could on some occasion adumbrate what he intends to do ultimately for agriculture. Hitherto we have had a series of proposals based very largely upon subsidies to assist different branches of agriculture, and this is another case in point. This is a further subsidy, and I presume we must agree that a subsidy is not a substitute for a policy. A subsidy is nothing more than a dole. If it is well handled a subsidy may be the foundation of a full-blown agricultural policy at some period or another, but so far it has not been made clear to us what objective the Government have in mind in introducing these successive subsidies. It is natural, too, that we should discuss this problem with an eye to the possibility of an international conflict. Recollections of the last one have not disappeared from the minds of many hon. Members; we think of the serious difficulties which were experienced during those four terrible years.
One fact which stands out clearly in the history of those four years is the absolute failure of this country to support itself in a crisis of that magnitude, despite the splendid effort that was made and despite the enthusiasm of the Prime Minister of that day, the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). Great efforts were made, particularly in 1918, to increase the arable

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area, but, unfortunately, by one of those natural accidents which do occur, it turned out to be a very bad harvest year, and having looked up the records I think I am correct in saying that, despite the most frantic efforts on the part of everybody, the quantity of foodstuffs raised in this country sufficed only to supply the needs of the people for just 16 weeks.
Consequently, I suggest that we dismiss from our minds when discussing the problem of agriculture the possibility of making this country self-sufficing in the case of a serious emergency. It simply cannot be done. The attempt we made then showed it. We cannot gainsay the fact that it proved, on the whole, to be a miserable failure. Consequently, when we are discussing agriculture and suggesting that we should have in view the possibility of a conflict in the future, we must recognise that the vast majority of the people in this country would have to rely, as we did in the past, almost entirely upon the efficiency of the Navy for our foodstuffs. It was the Navy and not agriculture that saved this country then; not home grown produce. We are Eying in a fool's paradise if we imagine that in the case of a conflict of that magnitude—which Heaven forbid should ever occur again—we could depend upon the resources of our own country.
If we regard agriculture not from the point of view of making the country self-sufficing in the event of a possible war, but as one of the primary industries of this country, the question then is, how are we to deal with it in relation to other industries? In the course of the Debate, very little attention has been paid to the relative claims of agriculture as against those of other industries. This is just where the danger of subsidies comes in. If we subsidise other industries to the extent to which agriculture, for example, has been subsidised, does any hon. Member think that those industries would not begin to flourish in a very decided way? We can produce all kinds of things in this country, but at a cost. Here is the vital factor. We can produce agricultural commodities, but some of us believe that they can be much better produced in other countries, where the cost of production is lower, and not because low wages are paid. In Australia, Argentina and the United States, wages are much higher than they are in agriculture in this
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country. It is the natural advantages of those countries which keep their cost of production down, and I do not see that there is any justification for a policy which puts up those costs against the teeming millions of consumers that we have in this country. If nature has benefited those countries in that way, it is our duty to recognise that, and we must review agricultural policy in the light of the fortunes of the other industries of our own country. Some of those foreign countries have very superior advantages in the production of the necessaries of life that we so much require here.
That fact does not do away with the possibility that we may be, for social or other reasons, very anxious to support a large agricultural community on the land in this country. That necessity will become a determining factor in the future history of this country. We are not going to repeat the period of prosperity which we enjoyed in the nineteenth century, when we were able to take full advantage of the natural fertility, for example, of the virgin soil of North America and to concentrate here upon the production of things which we could produce much better than they could, and which we could exchange for the goods which we required, and particularly raw materials. That period of history has very largely closed. Consequently, we have to consider whether we can readjust our economic life and cease to be—as we have very largely ceased to be, unfortunately—the great industrial power we were at the beginning of this century. We have to consider whether we can readjust our economic resources and our population, and in that way maintain on the land of this country a larger proportion of people than we are maintaining there at the present time. I am convinced that an entirely different type of agriculture is needed. Anybody who read that very interesting report recently published by the Carnegie Trust as to the possibility of settling families on the land of this country will have seen that this possibility, with which we are very much acquainted in certain parts of this country, involves something much bigger than the Minister has outlined to-day. It involves a reorganisation of the whole agriculture of these islands. I do not see that proposal among those which we have before us to-day. There is nothing quite so fundamental in them.

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There is another problem. Having decided that we shall foster agriculture, we have to decide what type of agriculture. What the Minister has done today is to supplement a grant that he has made out of the Exchequer to a particular kind of agriculture, wheat growing, by making a grant to the more pasturable parts of this country. I welcome this step because it is redressing an uneven balance. It has been unfair on the part of the Government hitherto to regard only the big farmer, the cereal grower, the beet grower and the feeder. The Government are doing something to redress the balance by recognising that the pastoral farmer has had a very hard life. He is very often quite a small man who farms very largely with family labour. His workers are members of his family who spend all their time on their smallholding and end up by having nothing except the right to succeed to the holding. I know several families who have worked hard, generation after generation, on their land. They have established some title to the particular farm in which they have lived. It is the duty of the Minister to recognise the claims of such people. This is the country of the pastoral farmer. We are pre-eminent in the raising of stock, but the successful raising of stock depends, very largely, interestingly enough, upon this family type of farming. From that point of view I welcome the proposals. It is only right that the small farmers should be considered, after we have for so long considered the others.
We all welcome the attempt to rid the stock of this country, particularly our dairy herds, of that terrible disease, bovine tuberculosis. I understand that there is a great deal of misconception with regard to that disease. It is sometimes stated that as high a proportion as 40 per cent. of the cattle of this country is infected with the disease which, as we know, is causing a great deal of harm, particularly among the young children of the country. It was encouraging the other day to find that inspectors of the Ministry of Health reported that certain parts of my own country, Wales, particularly some of the hill farms, clear of this disease. If that could be established for other areas, although it might take a very long time to clean up all the herds of the country, it would result in a tremendous advance in public health.
8.10 p.m.
Mr. Drewe: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, in the part of his speech in which he seemed to complain that the Government were devoting too much money and attention to agriculture at the expense of other industries, and that the other industries would become jealous and would ask for more subsidy. The farmers to-day see industry prosperous in the main, as a result, they believe, of tariffs. In agriculture, we have been denied the use of a tariff and we have had to rely upon subsidies. I would much prefer to see no more direct subsidies from the taxpayers and to get assistance from a levy-subsidy, in which principle I believe. We could then be upon equal terms with those who are enjoying a State tariff.
I welcome the proposals which the Government have brought forward to-day, particularly those for bringing back the fertility of the soil and attacking diseases in our herds. I think there is general agreement upon the necessity of these measures. During the last few months I have come across several cases of obscure disease in cattle, a sort of wasting disease, which, in several instances, resulted in death. It was diagnosed by the vets as lack of calcium in their systems. That proves that lime is urgently needed. Not only is the herbage of our soil becoming deficient in lime, but that deficiency is causing a deficiency of calcium in our cattle. I want to see every farmer take the fullest advantage of the proposals of the Government for increasing the fertility of the soil. The hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield (Sir R. Dorman-Smith) referred to this matter, and I agree with him that many farmers find themselves in very serious financial difficulties. It is the wish of the Minister of Agriculture that those farmers should take full benefit from the proposals, but I think that raises the general question of credit, upon which I do not propose to touch to-night. I would ask the Minister to consider a special arrangement of deferred payments, or any other scheme, arising out of the lime-slag policy, so that farmers who to-day are in debt to their banks, auctioneers or corn merchants, or whoever it may be, will be put into a position to reap the benefit of these proposals for increasing the fertility of the soil.

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I do not want to ask for any general extension to other manures than lime and basic slag, but there are a few special cases which I should like to have considered on their merits. In my constituency there is an area of land about 800 feet above the sea level, which, up to a few years ago was completely and absolutely derelict. It had gone back to heather, bracken, brambles, and so on. A portion of this area was taken up by a progressive gentleman in the neighbourhood, who reclaimed it and brought it to complete fertility, and to-day it is an amazing example of what scientific reclamation can do. On this particular area of land, it is found that basic slag is useless, and superphosphate has to be used in order to get results and maintain fertility. I want to ask whether, in cases of this sort, my right hon. Friend would be prepared to extend the benefit of his proposals to other manures where he got, say, a certificate from the county agricultural organiser or some other reliable person showing that, in a particular, specific, limited area, some other manure could be used that would be of more lasting benefit than basic slag. I do not want for a moment to ask for any general extension, because I know the reasons for limiting the proposal to lime and bask slag, but where there are special cases I should like those cases to be considered on their merits.
Another point to which I should like to refer is one which arises out of the drainage proposals. It arises partly out of what the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) said. He was referring to the North of England and Scotland, but in Devonshire also we have no serious problem of arterial drainage. I do not believe that any substantial arterial drainage is required in our county; all the water that comes, or could come, from our fields, can easily find its way unimpeded to the sea. But at the same time we have a great number of fields that urgently require drainage, and it seems to me that it would be complete waste if this public money were used in liming and slagging land that is continually wet. Indeed, my right hon. Friend, in his speech at the beginning of the Debate, said that you cannot grow crops on waterlogged land. That was when he was referring to his policy of going step
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by step with arterial drainage and so on. I quite agree that we cannot grow crops on waterlogged land, and there are a good many areas in this country, besides those referred to by the hon. Member for North Cumberland, where the land is urgently in need of field drainage. I would ask my right hon. Friend whether he could not keep his hands free, and make arrangements for a responsible officer of his Department, or make use of the county agricultural department or something of that sort, to certify certain areas where, while no arterial drainage is required, there is urgent need for field drainage. If that question could be considered with an open mind, I should be extremely grateful. I believe that, if in that way we could get a move on with field drainage, we should be able to bring much more land into profitable use in the future.
I hope, also, that the Ministry of Agriculture will take this opportunity, in conjunction with their fertility programme, to bring up to date and revise the leaflets that they send out, and that they will take some steps to make those leaflets, and the results of scientific research, more readily available to the farmers themselves. Farmers are not very good letter writers, and are not very keen on writing to the Ministry of Agriculture for a leaflet on lime, basic slag, or whatever it may be. I suggest that the Ministry of Agriculture might perhaps have a stall at some of our principal markets, where these leaflets, and the results of the latest scientific research, could be made available to farmers, so that they could get the latest possible information. I know that farmers are very keen to do everything they can to increase the fertility of their land, and I think that if, in conjunction with these proposals, the very valuable information which the Ministry has at its disposal could be made more available to the farmers themselves, it would be a great help.
8.22 p.m.
Mr. Lansbury: I have listened to very many Debates on agriculture, and to many requests that the spokesmen of the Government should put forward a long-range policy. I rise, first, to say that the whole of these proposals, which are brought forward one after another, as the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) said at the beginning, do not touch the problem of agriculture at all. I should like to say to hon. and right

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hon. Gentlemen opposite that, if this were a Socialist State, and if industry generally and agriculture—the foundation industry of the land—had to be subsidised, either by tariffs or by direct subsidies, in the fashion in which industry and agriculture are being subsidised to-day, I do not think that Members on the benches opposite would sit quiet without pointing out the futility of a system which landed us in the position in which we find ourselves.
The Government, and most people who talk about agriculture, continually talk about higher prices for the primary producers, and at the same time they ask for greater consumption of the goods produced, especially agricultural products. I wish to point out that you would have a very great market indeed for agricultural produce if the labourers who do the work on the land were paid proper wages to enable them to buy back the foodstuffs they produce. That is a part, and a very big part, of the problem, but very few of the speakers to-night have paid much attention to it. That is where a reform, or revolution, if you like, in regard to agriculture ought to start. The people who help to produce good butter ought, with their children, to eat it; those who help to produce good milk ought, with their children, to drink it; and so also with meat, and fruit, and everything that comes out of the land. As regards the exchange of goods with the townsman, one of my hon. Friends said that we could not use every acre of land, because we could not use the produce that would come from that land. I want to say that my constituency would get rid of a very considerable proportion of what could be grown on vacant land in Essex, Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk. Here again we are faced with exactly the same problem, namely, that we have not what the economists call an efficient demand; and we have not that efficient demand because people are not paid sufficient wages, and are not employed regularly enough, to enable them to buy the goods. Until those facts are faced—and they are not new facts—every discussion in this House on unemployment, on agriculture, or on industry generally, brings us right back to that problem.
You will not get this problem in proper perspective unless you think of it also from an international point of view. Why do we subsidise beef? Only because under present conditions the Argentine cannot
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pay their debts to the lending class in this country unless we take their beef. That is self-evident to any one who thinks about it. The same is true with regard to the Dominions. You cannot get payment of the debts that are due to you unless you have these imports from abroad, from our Dominions, from South America or elsewhere. Almost up to the date of the War the coming backwards and forwards of goods and the return for services, the invisible exports as they are called, enabled this country, or certain portions of the community, to have a standard of life such as, I suppose, never existed before in the world, but, even with that, ever since I have known this House we have always been told that agriculture, which ought to be the standing industry of the country, was going from bad to worse, and that was brought about because it paid better to lend the surplus money that came from industry abroad than to put it into agriculture and often into home industry. The return was larger and, up to a certain point, it was thought safer. But, when we come to ask ourselves how Great Britain paid for the War and various other things, they have been paid for sometimes by the service of our own people and the exploitation of others abroad and by turning our whole attention to the kind of industries that would produce sales, or by performing services, carrying goods in ships, and insurance and money-lending generally.
To-day we are up against a new situation altogether. The markets are less and the money that many people have paid us in days gone by, and would have re-borrowed, has been left in the banks and has not been used because those countries which were customers and which paid us huge sums yearly do not now want to borrow. One quite simple reason is that they are now very largely carrying on the same kind of industry as ourselves, and our customers in Japan and in parts of India and also in the Dominions have become our competitors. Everywhere in the world this sort of difficulty is being experienced and, when I hear Members ask for a long-range policy, I cannot help thinking that we shall never get it until the whole question of agriculture and the exchange of goods between nations is taken in hand and dealt with internationally. I said on Friday that it was an amazing thing that in South-East and

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Eastern Europe Governments are faced with the problem of how their people are to live. They have land and industrial resources, just like us, and in the end they are in much the same position. That is because the world has been organised, just as our agriculture and our industries are organised, on a competitive basis, which has landed us and the world where we are to-day. Here we are—it can be matched everywhere in the world—with a population as hard working, as thrifty and as willing to give to the common service as any people who ever lived on this island, and yet one has to sit here and listen to the story that we have listened to to-night, and we are so bankrupt of ideas as to how to deal with it that we are talking once more about providing lime and slag, which we are told was used hundreds of years ago on the land and has not been used since, and we are going back to the dark ages to know how to bring the land back to fertility.
It is time that the younger men in this House took a hand in this business. I said in 1931 that the problems that the world had to face were problems which the younger generation ought to think out and make up their mind how to deal with. If we merely nationalised the land and nationalised agriculture, we should riot get very far unless we dealt with all the other questions that I have hinted at, because in the end agriculture and industry generally are indivsible. They are part of the human life everywhere, and this generation ought to be facing up to the fact that we are living at a period unparalleled in the history of the world. When I go down, as I sometimes do, to Essex, which is very largely an agricultural county, in spite of the surge up from London, and when I see the hay, which used to be gathered in by men, women and children, gathered, tossed and piled in one operation by one man and a machine, I ask, Why should there be anywhere in the world poverty, misery and want? Why should we be arguing with one another as we are?
The younger men here have been heard on many occasions putting forward what at one time would have been considered by those sitting on those benches revolutionary ideas about industry and so on. Why should we not face up to the fact that we are living really in a new world
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when science and invention have scrapped all our old ideas, whether we like it or not, and realise that an entirely new approach to all these questions must be made? I know that it would be out of order to pursue this matter, and I will not do so, but they ought to discuss these questions in relation to the same problems in every other country in the world. It was amazing to travel through America and to find poverty in a great, marvellously rich country, but it is equally difficult to realise that in England, Scotland and Wales there should be poverty. It sometimes makes me almost despair of humanity when I think of these things, and although my hon. Friends and I are only going to vote against a portion of this proposition, I think the time is long overdue when all of us here should unite to face the economic problem of our time.
That economic problem is not one of how to produce. Everything that is said here to-night about production is subsidiary. The power to produce is greater and mightier than ever before. It used to be said that a man who could make two blades of grass grow where one grew before was a great benefactor of mankind. Why, to-day you can make a thousand ears of corn grow where only one grew before. You can grow fruit, and produce everything that man needs in superabundance, and yet we are talking as though that was a crime, and was something that should make us despair. I only got up to say these things because one cannot sit here without those thoughts surging through one's mind. This country led the way in the industrial revolution, and our people have probably done more than any other people to bring about the conditions that we see to-day which, if properly used, can give to mankind a better life. Let us start here and see that we do it in our own country first.
8.39 p.m.
Mr. Turton: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), in a very wise and sincere speech, has given us advice about agriculture, and with many of his major premises I for one will not quarrel at all, but I do not think that the policy of the Socialist party to-day, either earlier or later, has been carrying out the wise views of the right hon. Gentleman. We

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on these benches dislike to see poverty in the midst of plenty whether it is in an industry or in an individual, and it is because the agricultural industry, from the farmer down to the farm labourer, has been suffering from poverty in the midst of a better condition in other industries that this Resolution has been introduced. The right hon. Gentleman said that he would do all that he could to ensure farm labourers having an adequate wage, and yet in a very short time we are to divide against the proposal to give a guarantee of 24s. a quarter for oats.
I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Stirling {Mr. Johnston) in his place, and I would ask him how are the farm servants in that part of the British Isles to be given a proper wage? How is the Agricultural Wages Regulation Act for Scotland to be carried out if there is not some sort of guarantee that the man who puts oats into the ground is going to be able to pay wages to the men he employs? I regret very much that the Socialist party have taken this opportunity to make oat growing and barley growing insecure by their attitude in this House. They are the same party who earlier decided that the poultry man should go to the wall. It would be out of Order to deal with that to-night and I do not wish to do so, notwithstanding the intervention of the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), who so forgot his statistics as to declare that the imports of eggs have not increased during the last five years. If the hon. Member will kindly look up the Trade and Navigation Accounts, he will find that he misled the Committee—I am sure by inadvertence—to this extent, that the imports of eggs from abroad have increased from 2,300,000,000 in 1932 regularly up to just a few eggs short of 3,000,000,000 last year. However that is a side issue which I do not want to carry on to-night.
Mr. W. Roberts: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether during that same period the proportion of home-produced eggs has not also increased? The statement I made was that the proportion of home-produced eggs had increased.
Mr. Turton: It is quite true that the hon. Gentleman, in a very liberal manner had two horns to his dilemma. He first of all said that we had produced
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more eggs—and that is perfectly true—and at the same time that the foreign imports had not increased.
Mr. Roberts: I did not say that.
Mr. Turton: The hon. Member challenges me and, if he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow morning, I hope that he will correct the impression that he made on the Committee. The policy in this Financial Resolution is a logical consequence of the Livestock Bill by which the Government are endeavouring to make livestock a paying proposition and to encourage the breeding of livestock in this country. This should mean that there will be more cattle kept, and if more cattle are kept, then this policy must be justified. If we do not have more cattle, then I fear that the policy for the fertility of the land will fail. I want the Committee to realise the implication of the lime and basic slag policy. If you put lime on the land you have to follow it with manure, and if you do not do that you will not increase the fertility of the land. Similarly, it is the case with basic slag. If you put basic slag on your grassland you will get that much increase of grass, but if you do not have the stuff to put on it you will be doing not good but harm to your grassland.
I hope that the result of the Government's earlier Livestock Bill will be such an increase in livestock that the policy as announced in this Resolution can be carried out. I and my constituents welcome it, and those who are good farmers throughout England are anxious to see that their land is improved. It is a religion to farmers. They do not look at their balance sheets, as the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) pointed out. Some of the farmers do not keep balance sheets—I keep a balance sheet but in that I am different from some farmers—but farmers all over the country know how their land should be treated and they treat their land well whenever they are allowed to do so by the Government in power, and whenever the prices are sufficient to enable them to do so. [Laughter.] It is all very well for the Socialists to laugh. We had a great confession tonight from the Socialist side. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) explained that Lord Addison was anxious to give a guaranteed price for barley, and I expect for oats, but he was

1887
prevented through disunity in the Socialist party. [Laughter.] Again, hon. Members laugh. If they will read the OFFICIAL, REPORT to-morrow they will read of that confession. Perhaps they forget the tangled history of 1929–31. If they look at what the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean said they will find that he said the plan had been worked out for a guaranteed price for barley and oats, but Lord Addison was prevented from bringing it about because some of his colleagues differed. When the Government bring down the same policy of a guaranteed price for oats and barley, we find the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean leading the Opposition into the Lobby to try and prevent the House from giving that subsidy.
I want to make one criticism of the subsidy for oats and barley, and that is that the subsidy has a limitation to an acreage of one-tenth more than the acreage of 1927. This year the acreage will not be as much as it otherwise would have been because it has been a most difficult year for working the land. For that reason, whatever the figures may be, although it is far too early yet to know what the exact acreage will be for oats and barley, we know that this year it will not be very big. We are allowed only to grow one-tenth more in acreage, and we know that the acreage under oats and barley has fallen tremendously in the last few years.
Mr. T. Williams: The hon. Member is surely aware that there is nothing to prevent them from producing as much oats and barley as they like?
Mr. Turton: That is true, but from the practical point of view we must have money to produce it. The hon. Member for Don Valley, would not like to work without wages. We have had a rise of 50 per cent. in our salaries. Would he deny the agricultural labourers a rise? Under paragraph 2 of the Resolution, it is provided that the subsidy on the guaranteed price shall be only on that acreage which has not exceeded by more than one-tenth the acreage of such land in 1937. I have not the figures for 1937, and the Minister has not the figures, but I have the figures for 1936, and they show a very large drop for oats and barley over previous years. If we want to get
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back no further than the pre-war years, we shall have to increase our oat acreage by 42 per cent. and our barley acreage by 75 per cent. The Minister said that he did not want an increase in the oat acreage at the present time, because we are already supplying 93 per cent. of our demand, but if we are going to increase our livestock it is essential that we should grow more foodstuffs in this country and that there should be a greater acreage under oats. With regard to barley, we are importing between 40 and 50 per cent. of our requirements from abroad. Why should we not grow that barley here?
Mr. J. J. Davidson: The landlords will not let you.
Mr. Turton: I have not found that restriction upon the cropping of land with barley. The hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. J. Davidson), whose knowledge of agricultural law is greater than mine, suggests that the landlords are preventing it. I know of no such prevention. The only prevention that I know of is the fact that when farmers have produced barley and the farm labourers have helped them to produce it, they have been getting only 24s. to 30s. a quarter for the barley, and you cannot grow it at that price.
Mr. Davidson: Is the hon. Member aware that in Scotland there are more than 3,000,000 acres of land, which could be used for productive purposes, in the hands of private landowners, who keep it for sporting purposes? Those landlords refuse to let that land be used for agricultural purposes. In my intervention I was suggesting that the hon. Member's party should take steps to see that the landlords do not prevent cultivation.
Mr. Turton: The hon. Member is going to vote against the very policy he believes in. I am anxious to get more land under agriculture, but he is going to vote against a guaranteed price for barley and oats. The reason why land in Scotland—Scotland is a foreign country to me, for I have very seldom been there, except in a caravan—is not under agriculture is because barley and oats are at an uneconomic price. We are trying to get a guaranteed price for barley and oats, and the Socialist party have declared that they are going to oppose that policy. Now, I should like to get back to my com-

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ments on the limitation of acreage. The hon. Member for Maryhill has given an added argument why this limitation should be taken off. I say in all seriousness that there is no reason why there should be a limitation of acreage under barley. The acreage of barley has dropped from a pre-War total of 1,500,000 to 811,000 acres last year. What we need to do is to encourage the farmers to bring more land into cultivation under barley, as in pre-War years.
I agree whole-heartedly with what the hon. Member for North Cumberland said about drainage. It is unreasonable that Scotland and the depressed areas should have a subsidy for tile drainage and that the average farmer should have no such subsidy. You cannot use lime on land that is ill-drained. Tile drainage is a fundamental part of the fertility of the soil, and whilst we welcome the grant of 33⅓ per cent. for arterial drainage, we regret that there has been no assistance given for tile drainage. Where land has been in the occupation of landlords there has been some tile drainage done in the last few years, but where farmers bought their land in the boom period after the War they cannot possibly, in the present state of agricultural prices, afford to drain their fields by tiles, and it is, I am afraid, that land which has gone back largely in the last few years. I hope the Government will reconsider their policy in regard to this omission and that they will enable tile drainage to be done, for which purpose a grant was given by the Socialist Government. Many landlords benefited by the one advanced policy of the Socialist Government when they gave a large grant for moor gripping and also for field drainage. It was a very good policy and it was the one policy where the Government might follow the Socialist Government. The Socialist Government were the real friends of the landlords in this matter of drainage.
Mr. James Griffiths: Why then did they turn us out?
Mr. Turton: Because in every other branch of their policy the Labour party were singularly inept. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the wisdom of his proposals. He is starting at the fundamentals of agriculture, and the matters to which I have referred as well as the assistance he proposes to give towards eradicat-
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ing diseases in cattle and poultry, will in my opinion build a far happier and far more prosperous agriculture in this land.
8.56 p.m.
Mr. T. Smith: The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) has said that tenant farmers bought their farms at a boom period, but I suppose he will not put that down to the Socialist party. He will know that the Corn Production Act was passed in order to give a guarantee to the farmers for a certain period of time, and then the Coalition Government repealed that Act and left in the bankruptcy court many tenant farmers who had bought their land at high prices. That cannot be put on to the backs of the Labour party.
Mr. Turton: I was praising the Labour party, not blaming them for giving large grants to agricultural landlords for draining land.
Mr. Smith: It is very nice to hear the hon. Member praising the Labour party, and we are to understand from his remarks that all that has gone wrong from 1931 has not been due to the Labour Government. We were not responsible for tenant farmers buying their farms at enhanced prices. The hon. Member said that Labour Members were going to vote against this subsidy to the growers of barley and oats. He is quite right; and I will tell him why. If there is one thing upon which hon. Members opposite are united it is that agriculture is in a bad way. I have never heard an hon. Member opposite say that agriculture is prosperous, and some of us are becoming suspicious of this constant plea of poverty. No evidence is ever produced. We are always told that agriculture is in a bad way. Before the War they got part of their rates paid, and after the War all their rates were paid. I admit that many farmers have had a bad time, but we are a little suspicious that agriculture is not in such a bad condition as hon. Members opposite would make out. Each month there is a list of wills published, and we notice amongst them some huge sums left by farmers. It may be that they did not make their money on the farms; they may have made it in industry, and then went on to the farm to lose it.
If this House is constantly to vote subsidies to agriculture, there should be some guarantee that the agricultural

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worker will get a decent wage. The policy of subsidies has certainly enabled farmers to pay landlords their rent and banks their overdraft; and it has certainly, for another thing, bought the countryside for Toryism. Hon. Members opposite seem to be proud of that. I remember a Debate in this House on the Unemployment Insurance Act when hon. Members opposite charged us with trying to get something from the Exchequer for our own constituents. Time and time again hon. Members opposite have voted for subsidies, knowing that they would themselves receive a part of it. There should be a guarantee that the farm worker is paid a decent wage. Hon Members opposite, when they talk about what the Government have done for agriculture, cannot deny the fact that in 1931 and 1932 the National Government discharged six wage inspectors.
Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: Wages have gone up.
Mr. Smith: They went down in 1932.
Brigadier-General Brown: They are higher now than when the Labour Government was in office.
Mr. Smith: That is not so. I happen to have the comparative wages between 1929 and 1937. and there are still some at 30s. and just over.
Brigadier-General Brown: The average minimum wage is 32s. 6d.
Mr. Smith: The hon. and gallant Member is not right even in his average; it is a shade more than that.
Brigadier-General Brown: I know what I have to pay myself, and it is a good deal higher than I had to pay a few years ago.
Mr. Smith: The hon. and gallant Member knows what he has to pay. As a matter of fact, agricultural wages are not at their 1929 level yet.
Captain Heilgers: The hon. Member may be quite right, although I do not think he is, but may I quote what has happened in my own county? Under a Socialist Government wages fell from 30s. to 28s., and under the National Government they have gone up from 28s. to 32s. 6d.
Mr. Smith: There have been two Labour Governments, one in 1924 and one in 1929. Will the hon. and gallant Member deny that in 1923 agricultural wages had fallen so low and the conciliation committees had so broken down that Mr. Noel Buxton, as he then was, had to admit that wages of less than£1 per week were being paid? That was the reason why the Labour Government of 1924 brought in the Agricultural Wages Bill.
Captain Heilgers: Will the hon. Member deny that the wages of agricultural workers in this country to-day are higher than at any period except the period immediately after the War?
Mr. Smith: If we take the pre-war figures the wages which were paid in agriculture were an absolute scandal. The wages paid in agriculture to-day are higher, not because of what the National Government have done, but because the agricultural worker has been wise enough to organise in his own trade union.
Captain Heilgers: I did not refer to the pre-war period, and I entirely agree that wages were a perfect scandal. I was referring to the post-war period, and I say that wages to-day are higher than at any time since the immediate post-war period of 1919–20.
Mr. Smith: I am not going to quibble on decimal points. The fact is that agricultural wages are too low, and I repeat that the increase in some counties is traceable to the fact that agricultural representatives on the wages committee have put up a fight and secured an advance in wages, in many cases in spite of the opposition of the farmers' representatives. That cannot be denied.
Sir Joseph Lamb: Has the hon. Member ever heard any hon. Member on this side say that agricultural wages are too high? Will he not admit that the reason agricultural wages are at the present standard is that the Act itself says that the wages shall be what the industry can pay, and this is settled by the independent chairman on those grounds?
Mr. Smith: I know what is in the Act, but the hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that there is a good deal of mystery as to where agriculture actually stands. Will the hon. Member deny that? The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton said

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that farmers do not keep balance sheets. I know some farmers, and I know that they are jolly good business men.
Mr. Turton: I said that some farmers do not keep balance sheets. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) said that all farmers have more regard for their balance sheets, and I pointed out that that cannot be so in the case of some farmers, who have none.
Mr. Smith: The average farmer is not as dull as some people may imagine. He is a smart business man. Let that be said to his credit. Through the National Farmers' Union, the farmers have done very well for themselves. There is one aspect of the wages question which hon. Members will have to tackle sooner or later. It is the constant decline in the number of men employed in agriculture. In a letter in the "Times" on Monday last, it was suggested that men are leaving the land in order to work for local authorities. One cannot blame them for doing so if they can get more money by working for local authorities or by working in industries in the towns. The suggestion was made in the letter that local authorities should hold back some of their work at certain times of the year so as to force back on to the land the agricultural workers who have left it. In other words, the suggestion is that bigger wages should be withheld from the men so as to compel them through poverty to take a low wage. Is that the attitude of hon. Members opposite?
Hon. Members: No.
Mr. Turton: We want guaranteed prices.
Mr. Smith: I do not object to farmers getting decent prices; I believe they have a right to decent prices for their commodities; but I differ from hon. Members opposite as to the way in which that can be brought about. Sooner or later the agricultural worker will have to be treated much better than he is treated now, otherwise still more men will leave the land. The agricultural worker is in a worse position than the town worker from every point of view—he has lower wages, rotten housing accommodation, tied cottages, and he is even in a worse position as regards unemployment insurance. Hon. Members on this side maintain that if subsidies are continually to be voted to
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agriculture, then accompanying the subsidies there must be a guarantee that the agricultural workers will get decent wages. That is the reason we shall vote against paragraphs (2) and (3) when we have the opportunity.
9.8 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: I think that on the whole the Committee is in agreement with the Minister in the proposals which he has brought forward. Hon. Members opposite have been slightly sarcastic, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) treated us to a very interesting dissertation, which was a mixture of Karl Marx and John Stewart Mill; but no alternative proposals have been put before us. In Lincolnshire we are very satisfied with proposals concerning liming, becausing for many years we have been suffering from a shortage of lime. The right hon. Gentleman is the first Minister of Agriculture who has given any encouragement to the farming industry with regard to manuring, and I would like to congratulate him on it. Lincolnshire is a very difficult county from the point of view of draining, and it has not had much benefit from the subsidies to the catchment boards; but the latest subsidy for draining will be of great use in some of the more low-lying parts. I do not think the Committee has been very much impressed by the arguments that have been made by hon. Members opposite. It is the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley which chiefly interests me. All hon. Members naturally respect the right hon. Gentleman for his great experience in the House, and I hoped at one time that we were going to have from him a contribution on the subject of agriculture; but he started by sneering at the policy of tariffs and subsidies and asked what would have happened if a Socialist Government had proposed such things as tariffs. But every country which has tried Socialism has always had tariffs, and I do not quite see what the right hon. Gentleman means.
Mr. Lansbury: Evidently I did not make myself clear. What I said was that if a Socialist Government had come forward year after year acknowledging that agriculture, the primary industry of the country, was in the parlous condition which we have heard all through this Parliament and other Parliaments, hon.

1895
Members opposite would have said that that was the fault of Socialism. I say that it is the fault of capitalism.
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Very likely both would be wrong.
Mr. Lansbury: But I am right.
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: In every country, even in such a Socialist paradise as Russia, or in the aftermath of a Socialist paradise, such as Germany and Italy, agriculture has been the Cinderella of industries, and has had to be supported by the remainder of the industries of the country. It is of no use hon. Members opposite, talking as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley did, in an. extraordinary Karl Marxian fashion; the reality is that the other industries support agriculture. Perhaps I may remind the right hon. Gentleman of the story of a young lady who went to a fishmonger's shop in his constituency and when the fishmonger said, "What can I do for you?" replied, "It is not what you can do for me; I want a diamond tiara and a seat for the Coronation, but my mother wants a halfpenny haddock." It is the practical side of things that we look at on this side of the House.
Mr. Montague: The hon. and gallant Member said that other industries ought to be called upon to support agriculture? Does he know that 16s. out of every pound of the agricultural wages bill is paid out of subsidies, and that if one takes derating into account more than the whole of the agricultural wages bill is paid by the State?
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: I am very glad that the hon. Member is at last studying agriculture. What I said was that in every country in the world other industries, not ought to support agriculture, but what is much more important, do support agriculture, because they have to do so. That is not the fault of either Capitalism or Socialism—it is the fact. Possibly the explanation is that agriculture is the oldest industry in the world. The other industries have all arisen later and far bigger profits are being made by them. Hon. Members opposite have talked about subsidising wages in the agricultural industry but in that respect do the farmers differ very much horn miners or mine-owners,
1896
and from those concerned in many other industries?
Mr. Batey: The hon. and gallant Member should withdraw the reference to the miners. The miners have never got anything on their wages.
Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: I think the mining industry is doing very much better than agriculture. It is a highly organised and important industry, but the mining industry and the other industries did not attain the present position without attending to the smaller details and I think we have been remiss in this country, on all sides, in not attending to the comparatively small things in the agricultural industry. I am glad to see that the Minister of Agriculture is now by this Resolution recognising the importance of these smaller things in the industry. One thing for which I am thankful is that, at last we have got rid of the myth that this is the long-term policy of the Government. This is one instalment, but I believe it to be no more than an instalment which this Government and succeeding Governments, will have to make from time to time in order to enable agriculture to keep pace with industry generally.
There is one aspect of this question which has hardly been mentioned so far and that is the question of mechanisation. Mechanisation in agriculture is only in its infancy, but when it develops it will have the effect which it has had elsewhere. It will mean that less labour will be required on the land, and possibly one of the reasons why men are leaving the land is that there is less work for them to do on that account. On the other hand I agree with much that has been said concerning the low wages in agriculture, but I do not think that even hon. Members opposite, despite all the charges which they make about low wages in agriculture, really believe that in present circumstances the industry could afford to pay any higher wages. I do not think that would be possible even in a Socialist State. If they will agree with me as far as that I am sure hon. Members would also agree, that no matter what party or what Government may be in power, we will have to combine and work together for agriculture. You cannot solve the agricultural problem in one year or in 10 years. It is an industry which needs a very long time. I should like

1897
in conclusion to congratulate the Minister once more upon these proposals.
9.20 p.m.
Sir F. Acland: This has been a very interesting Debate. We have heard on this side an expression of the general feeling that parts of the Government's scheme are excellent, while from the other side the speeches have, for the most part, expressed the view that all the scheme is good but that hon. Members opposite would have been glad of more. That is common form, but I think the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Maxwell) went rather far in that direction. He told us of the extraordinarily heavy crops of barley which were grown in that part of the country. We know that some of the leading brewers go there for their malting barley, but although, obviously it pays the growers there, as things are, taking it year in and year out, to grow barley yet it appeared from the hon. Member that they were aggrieved because there were not some pickings for them out of this scheme, to give them still more on what must already be a paying crop. Another speech in which I was interested was that of the hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield (Sir R. Dorman-Smith) who, as we are all glad to know, remains President of the National Farmers' Union. He took up a point which I made some time ago—not of course because I had made it, but of his own accord—namely that it was extraordinarily difficult to get farmers to take advantage of these new offers, unless you were able to do something with regard to their present indebtedness and freeing them from existing obligations. He asked that some special inquiry should be made into that matter. I suggested that a little while ago, and I repeat the suggestion now. I believe this to be one of the primary elements of our difficulty indeed one of the foundations of our difficulty.
With regard to milk, we are tending to pile up the amount of milk which has to go to the factories. I hope we shall see other branches of agriculture paying as well as or better than milk. Milk does not pay always, but people have to stick to it because milk is, comparatively speaking, a cash trade and people require the cash in order to pay the interest on their loans. Therefore they are not able to switch over to other branches of agricul-
1898
ture which might do better for them and tend to restore a true balance in the agricultural industry. I am very pleased to have heard that point made by the hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield, who carries such weight or ought to carry such weight in this Committee.
On the question of lime and slag I want to make only one point. There are parts of the country—I am glad to say rather small parts—where although lime is much required it is very difficult to get. I refer to those parts where the aqueous rocks disappear and you get the igneous rocks, as in Cornwall. There, in many districts, you may have to send 40 or 50 miles, or even further, to the nearest lime kiln or quarry. This point has been raised by the Farmers' Union, and I am bound to put it here to-night because my colleagues who represent Cornwall have not been, present during this Debate. They are all doing their best on the eve of the poll, in the by-election, in that county. I myself was asked to go there to counteract their influence, but I thought it was a more important duty to attend here and to support the agricultural policy of the Minister of Agriculture.
The point is that nature has provided lime for people in those parts of the country to which I refer, not in the ordinary way from quarries or works, but from sea sand. All round the Cornish coast there is sea sand containing lime, some of it to the extent of 80 per cent. or more. The people there know the analysis of the sea sand and they get their lime in the form of sand from the beaches. The question is, can they establish a system as water-tight as that which the Minister proposes so as to be sure that the people who collect and deliver the sand will no more put up the prices than the people who are to supply slag and lime under the Minister's scheme. Will they be able to get half the the expense of providing themselves with this sand containing lime, in the same way as farmers more favourably situated, in regard to lime supplies, in other parts of the country? There is another small point I want to ask about that. The Minister said that he had drawn his definition of those entitled to this subsidy as wide as he could. Am I right in assuming that the two-ton lots would apply to allotment societies as well as to smallholders?
Mr. W. S. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right in supposing that allotment holders, if they combine in taking a two-ton lot, will receive the benefit of this.
Sir F. Acland: I thank the Minister very much. That will be a considerable help. I think that I can say, in regard to the organisation of which I am President, that they will not be advised to get lime unless it is necessary and desirable that they should. With regard to oats and barley, f see on the one side the danger of piling up subsidies. I have always felt that, however desirable that might be for the agriculturist, those subsidies might be felt to be very heavy and that the ordinary consumer—the ordinary working man and the ordinary member of the unemployed for instance —might feel that although in one way or another he was paying his share he was not getting much back in the way of a better service in regard to his food supplies. But unless you are able to go fairly wide you are liable to unbalance agriculture, and once it is unbalanced—as I think it is now to some extent with regard to milk—it is extraordinarily difficult to bring it back.
From that point of view, if you want to have a balanced system, there has to be a certain balance between grass and crops and between crops like wheat and crops like oats. I see the connection between what the Minister is trying to do for grass and what he is trying to do for oats and barley. As he so rightly says, in many districts the improvement of grass crops is a matter of better management of the short leys. On the whole, on balance, because I dislike these subsidies, because I fear their general instability, in the long run, I think that there is a great deal to be said for the oats and barley proposals, and I shall support them.
With regard to drainage, under the schemes of the late Labour Government, in some districts a good deal was done; river courses were straightened out and the arterial drainage was considerably improved. It is not a picture that applies to the whole country, that nothing can be done, as the Minister said, unless you start at: the estuary and gradually work up. A great deal of that work has been done. All that we want is compulsory powers, because it is no good a man high
1900
up the stream doing something if there is a fellow down below who is doing nothing. Where that has been done, it is not so much this arterial drainage as apparently what they can have and administer easily in Scotland, the ordinary field drainage. It is not easy to see why in those districts where we have taken our chance to get our streams right we should not have a chance of getting our fields right, and I join with other hon. Members in bringing up that matter again.
With regard to the great drive which the Minister is going to make in the elimination of cattle diseases, in the long run nothing could be more important a part of his scheme than that. Maybe he has explained more fully elsewhere what he is going to do and I ought to have seen it. It is clear that he is going to make a great change in the administration of the Acts of Parliament which have hitherto come under our veterinary authorities, and I do not think that those of us who are concerned with county administration yet realise fully or clearly what it is he really intends. Will the whole-time county veterinary officers, for instance—he may be able to answer "Yes" or "No" straightaway—be taken away into a national veterinary service, and will Acts of Parliament like the Diseases of Animals Act be administered as part of a national service? I gather that the answer to that is "Yes." That is a big undertaking, and all I can say is, good luck to him, because it will be a considerable change from what we have known. Will the Milk and Dairies Act be administered in the same way? I think that probably is not so. That can be dealt with later.
My belief is that with the centralising of attention on these very important and vital matters of cattle disease we may be within sight of rather remarkable developments. As I had the pleasure of telling the Minister the other day, I believe I am acquainted with members of the medical profession who would be, with the present standard of knowledge existing, capable of preparing, not a live vaccine, which is itself dangerous, but a dead inoculum, which can be inoculated to calves at birth and will protect them from any risk of tuberculosis. If that system could be worked out and made generally applicable we could get rid of tuberculosis within one generation of

1901
cattle. We shall see how that goes. A friend of mine in the medical profession is to have the chance of trying out his discoveries in the case of foot-and-mouth disease, and no doubt, if he can establish his theories, he will begin to apply them in regard to tuberculosis as well.
This has been an interesting Debate. If we are convinced of one thing, it is that the Minister of Agriculture is very much in earnest and extremely sincere about the proposals he has made, that he explained them very clearly, and that we shall be in safe hands in following him through their complexities in the next few weeks in this House.
9.36 p.m.
Mr. T. Johnston: I rise only for a few moments to emphasise one or two points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) in his opening speech. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) is not in his place after the very provocative speech he made. I should have liked to say one or two things to him in explanation of the reasons why many of us on these benches, being very sympathetic to agriculture, representing, as some of us do, large agricultural areas, and coming, as some of us do, from farming stock, still intend, and with a good heart, to go into the Lobby to-night against this Financial Resolution. I will explain why. It is not that we do not desire a prosperous agriculture. I go further and say, that I believe no State can survive unless the workers on the soil are prosperous, happy and contented. It is not that. Indeed, our colleagues in New Zealand, who the other day secured a majority in the New Zealand Parliament, took steps, as almost their first action, to guarantee such prices to agriculture as would give the farmers and agricultural workers a living. That is what this Government has not yet done. No Government in this country has yet gone to the length of giving a guaranteed price to the producers on the soil. It is not that we object to a prosperous agriculture—far from it. What we object to is the fundamental method adopted by the Government to bolster up finance and capitalism in agriculture. I should cheerfully vote with two hands in the House for subsidies, grants-in-aid, or anything that was required for agriculture, if I were certain that the producers on the soil would get it.
1902
Where are these subsidies going? They will go partly to the private landlord. They may take some time to get there. In cases where there is an owner-occupier, these subsidies may not be seen until the land again changes hand. Sooner or later, however, the subsidies that are being poured in by the State to land in this country go, as long as the land is privately owned, into the pockets of private landlords. We believe that part of the subsidies will go to the financiers and will go to relieve bank overdrafts and middle-men financiers. I would cheerfully support the right hon. Gentleman if he would bring in measures to organise agricultural co-operation, aided with finance, if necessary, and to take agriculture as far away as possible from the exactions and extortions of the moneylenders.
We object to these subsidies also because they are being poured into an unregulated industry, and that no attempt is being made to organise agriculture and to see that the industry is being placed upon an economic basis. When the Minister of Agriculture, whose great felicity of speech we all commend, announced the broad terms of these proposals, I ventured to ask him in a supplementary question what he proposed to do with the increased production. My hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley asked it this afternoon, and I repeat the question once more. Suppose you increase the productivity of the soil, as you can, by 10, 20 or even 50 per cent., where are you going to dispose of the produce? We want to know. If you increase your poultry produce by 10 per cent., where are you going to sell it? It is an important question. Sir John Orr, the nutritionist, says that 10 per cent. of our people are so poor that they are living under the British Medical Association's minimum standard. These people are not going to buy your fresh laid eggs. I have great sympathy on nutritional grounds with proposals to stop the import of Chinese eggs, Polish eggs, or any other kind of eggs, on the ground that they are not fresh when they reach the human stomach. But what are you going to do with the increased production here? Who is going to eat it? All that will happen, unless you raise the buying power of the people, is that your increased productivity will tend further to depress prices. The bigger the glut of home produce in the market, the more rapidly the

1903
price falls, and the more rapidly the price falls, the more the agricultural class is in a morass of despondency and despair.
For these reasons we submit to the right hon. Gentleman that however technically efficient—and we do not dispute it—his proposals about liming, drainage, and so on may be, he is not attacking this problem from the fundamental end, which is that you must get the market for the produce of the soil and the market lies in the stomachs of our people. It lies in the hungry multitudes. It has been said well that science has again achieved the miracle of the loaves and fishes, but where we have failed is in our ability to distribute the loaves and the fishes once we have created them. The farmers are efficient. Do not let any of my hon. Friends be under any misunderstanding on that point. Our farming is efficient. Our farmers are as skilled as those of any other country in the world. They know their job. Our farm workers are not only skilled at one trade; they are masters of many trades, skilled, able, hard-working, conscientious men and women, living miserably from year to year on the verge of penury. They know their job, and we cannot blame them. What is wrong is that no Government in this country has ever yet declared that there shall be a minimum standard of food for all and, having got that standard laid down, seen to it that our agriculture is set the job of producing that food and distributing it.
I should like to re-emphasise a point that I made the other day on the Scottish Estimates, and I beg of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland not to fob me off to-night, as he did the other night, by telling me that part of my story had to be met in an agricultural debate, that part of my story required legislation, part finance, and all the rest of it, and then saying, "I will see you again some other time." What are you going to do about milk? Is this House any longer going to tolerate a system under which you have a great productivity of milk, so great indeed that 40 per cent. of your milk has to be diverted from the liquid milk market and turned into manufacturing processes, and under which you hand over that 40 per cent. of your liquid milk to wealthy chocolate manufacturers—to Fry's, Cadbury's, Rowntree's, to the Horlick's Malted Milk people, to cheese manufac-
1904
turers, to butter manufacturers, and, in a small way, to the makers of combs, umbrella handles, and so on?
You exported last year 12,000,000 gallons of milk in tins to Czechoslovakia. At what price? At 4d., 4½d., 5d., 5½d., and 6d. per gallon. You go to the schools where you take your children from five to 14 years of age, and you charge them 1s. per gallon, and you then go to your younger children and your mothers in the depressed areas, and you charge them 2s. per gallon. You actually, by your present policy, charge 2s. per gallon to the child of four, one year under school age, and Is. per gallon to the child of five at school. How do you justify that? It pays the farmer to supply any quantity of milk at is. per gallon to the schools. The Milk Marketing Board are delighted. The more milk they can pour into the schools, the less they require to give to the manufacturing processes.
Why cannot the Minister of Agriculture face up to it now and say that he will see to it to-morrow that this scandal stops, in the interests of public health if of nothing else? We wish that every mother of every baby who desires milk shall be able to get that milk by calling for it at any registered shop at Is. per gallon, the price at which you sell it to the schools. Why not? If you do that, you will make such an enormous change in public health as will be a revolution. The hon. Member for St. Alban's (Sir F. Fremantle), a medical man, has written a book in which he has proved that we spend £300,000,000 every year in the attempted eradication of disease. Why not let us do something to stop the necessity for that eradication of disease? When the right hon. Gentleman comes forward now and asks this Committee to vote blindly for more money for increased productivity, we do not endeavour to crab the agriculturist in getting a living. What we say is that the whole problem of agriculture, of life on the soil, of the cure of consumption, and so on must be faced from a new angle, that the production of foodstuffs must be for human use and not primarily for the making of a profit.
If we set agriculture and the Milk Marketing Board the problem of producing x y z quantity of necessary food, after an examination of what is required by the nation, they will produce it, and it will be our duty then to see that all

1905
who are engaged in the necessary processes for the production of food get an adequate remuneration for their labour and their services. I am perfectly certain that there is no one on these benches who, in circumstances like these, would hesitate for a moment to give assent to any Measure that the Government might bring forward to ensure that agriculture should get a square deal, but the mere pouring of additional subsidies into added productivity, without questioning where your markets are coming from, knowing that surely and certainly this added productivity will depress your prices and that subsidies are going to be drained into the omnivorous maw of landlordism, is a policy that we, on these benches, cannot be asked to and will not support.
9.53 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Wedderburn): I think the Committee would desire that the general discussion should now draw to an end, so that we may have a little time left in which to deal with one or two of the Amendments that have been put on the Order Paper. My task in replying to the Debate is very much lighter than I expected, and I think that, in view of the very wide measure of approval with which our proposals have been received in every part of the Committee, it will not be necessary for me to speak at any great length. Of the four proposals which this Resolution contains, the only one which the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) declared his intention of opposing was that which related to cereals, and I shall return to that subject a little later. The other three proposals—that which provides for the provision of lime and slag, that which deals with land drainage, and that which deals with the centralisation of veterinary services—were accepted by the hon. Gentleman with only one or two qualifications. He said he was afraid that the price of lime might not fall as much as it ought, since the producers had done no more than guarantee that it would not be increased. He was also afraid that the producers of phosphates, who cannot receive a subsidy because most of the material comes from abroad, might suffer from the preference which is being given to other kinds of fertilisers.
1906
In regard to lime, I think the real safeguard will be that there are so many potential new sources of production that if there is an increased demand competition will at once be stimulated. Indeed, I should have much less fear about the price of lime than about the price of basic slag the production of which is in fewer hands. In regard to phosphates we have taken note of what he said, but I do not think there is any reason to fear that our proposals will result in any diminution in their use. In New Zealand, where for some years the policy of liming has been carried out on a large scale, an increased use of phosphates has proceeded concurrently. Phosphates are suitable for use on land which has been limed, and ought not really to compete with basic slag, because the types of land on which these two fertilisers are suitable are quite different.
The hon. Member, and also the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) and the right hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), emphasised the necessity of increasing consumption in order that people might be able to purchase the increased produce which we desire to see. It is certainly our aim to increase the purchasing power of our people, and I think we are entitled to claim that the general policy of the Government has had that effect. In the last four years 2,000,000 persons have found work who were not in work before. The number of insured persons now earning wages has increased by 2,000,000, and that has meant an increase in our total wages bill of several hundred million pounds. At the same time a welcome rise in the level of wages has begun to take place. Last year the Ministry of Labour conducted an inquiry into the wages which were being received by something like 4,000,000 persons and found that the increases in the wages of those 4,000,000 persons alone amounted to £25,000,000 a year over the previous year. A similar inquiry has been made during the first five months of the present year, from January till May, covering about 3,000,000 wage earners, and that has revealed that in their case the further increases of wages amount to a weekly sum which is equivalent to about £19,000,000 a year. I think it is largely due to this rise in the volume of wages that there has been such an in crease in the consumption of food and particularly of home-grown food.
Mr. E. J. Williams: Has not that figure been more than offset by the increase in the cost of living?
Mr. Wedderburn: No, Sir. When I turn to the more general criticisms which have been put to me, let me first dispose of one or two particular questions. I think that most of the questions asked by the right lion. Baronet the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) on the subject of veterinary surgeons will arise on two Amendments which are, I understand, to be called when we have finished this general discussion. My hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and West Aberdeen (Sir M. Barclay-Harvey) asked me three questions relating to Scotland. He asked whether grass sickness will be included among those diseases which are to he put under the supervision of the veterinary service. That is so. He asked also about sea walls. I am sorry to have to tell him that there is no provision whatever in Scotland for the construction or maintenance of sea walls by public funds. In Scotland we only have our tile drainage grants which they do not have in England. In England there are arterial drainage and catchment boards which we do not have in Scotland.
He asked one question, at rather greater length, about the calculation of the United Kingdom price of oats. He said he was afraid, and I have heard the same apprehension expressed elsewhere, that since Scottish oat prices are often slightly below those in England, the average price for the two countries may result in the Scottish farmer not receiving as much guarantee as he ought to have. My hon. Friend will have seen from the White Paper the method by which the average United Kingdom price will be calculated. He may not know the approximate acreages in each country which will qualify for subsidy. It is estimated that the oat and barley acreage in England which would have qualified for subsidy in the last few years would not have been much more than 600,000 acres, compared with over 750,000 acres in Scotland and 270,000 acres in Northern Ireland, so that in bringing about the average price the Scottish acreage will be predominant. I have some rather interesting figures for the last three years showing how the average United Kingdom price would have
1908
worked out. In 1934 the English price was 6s. 9d., the Scottish price 6s. 2d. and the Northern Ireland price 5s. 7d., the average price working out at 6s. 2d., which is precisely the same as the Scottish price. Last year the Scottish price was 7s. 1d. The average price in the United Kingdom was again exactly the same. In 1935 the Scottish price was 5s. 5d. and the average price was a little less, so Scotland would actually have gained.
Mr. Boothby: Is there not sometimes a large disparity between the price of oats in Aberdeenshire and the price in Renfrewshire?
Mr. Wedderburn: That is so, sometimes as much as one shilling difference between the prevailing prices in Aberdeenshire and Edinburgh, but I hardly think it would be practicable to have a system of regional prices. I do not think that could be worked. What we have done is to weight the price in such a way that the Scottish acreage will exert most influence.
The hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) who spoke for the Liberal party, found himself, I thought, in some difficulty in reconciling the interests of those farming constituents whom he represents with the fiscal doctrines of the party to which he belongs. The hon. Member was at great pains to insist that the recent improvement in the price of cereals, which has considerably benefited the farming community, was not in any way due to the policy of the Government, but was to be attributed solely to world causes.
In the last eight years, since 1929, I have very often heard the phrase "world causes," on many occasions and in many different connections, and I have held the opinion for a long time that "world causes" means some very persistent and wholly impersonal factor which is responsible for all the ill-fortune which occurs when you are in office, and for all the good fortune which takes place when you are in Opposition. A rise in the price of cereals such as benefits the farmer is entirely due to world causes, but a rise in the price of poultry feeding stuffs, which has proceeded during the same period, and to very much the same extent, is entirely due to the wicked tariff policy of the Government. And yet maize is one of the commodities which has always been on the Free List. In the years to come, when hon. Members and their friends are

1909
in office and when, owing to their policy, the price of poultry feeding stuffs has fallen, I hope they will not be entirely ungrateful to us for having insured the farmer against that slump in grain prices which will take place at the same time on account of world causes.
To come back to the speech of the hon. Member for Don Valley. He opposed the cereal part of the Resolution, as far as I remember now, for three reasons; one, that the oat-growing farmers did not often grow their oats other than for their own consumption; next, because he thought the barley subsidy might prove to be a subsidy to the brewers; and, more generally, because he was of the opinion that our soil was not really suitable for the growing of wheat and other cereals—he wanted us to concentrate upon the production of human food in the shape of animals, and not animal food in the shape of grain. On the first point, the whole reason why there has always been so much discontent among Scottish farmers is that for a great many of those farmers a large proportion of their oats must be a cash crop. To keep their land in proper arable rotation they cannot use more than a certain portion of their oat crop to feed their own beasts. They must sell a portion of their oats. We have taken an average of two quarters per acre, which we think is fair, but some farmers have to sell four quarters per acre, and they think that the proportion should be fixed at that figure.
In regard to barley, my answer to the hon. Member will be the same as that to my hon. Friend the Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Maxwell), who wanted to know why the barley subsidy should not be given to those who grow wheat as well. There is no reason for giving a subsidy to the same farmer for two different white crops. In order to have mixed farms with a proper arable rotation, you must sell at least one white crop. If you grow wheat, you can arrange to put as much of your white crop as you must sell into wheat. Land which is capable of growing good wheat is also capable of growing good barley, which can be sold to the brewers. That barley has been selling at more than double the price in recent years of barley which has been used for feeding stuffs. It is practically impossible that the subsidy will apply to brewing barley, because the only people who will not avail themselves of the
1910
wheat subsidy are those whose fields, not being good enough for wheat, is not good enough to grow malting barley.
Finally, the hon. Member argued that we ought to go in wholly for grass. There may be some parts of the country where it is possible to keep land in grass for a very long time, but it is certainly not so in many parts of Scotland which I know, and I am sure it is not the case in a great many parts of England. We cannot keep land in grass for more than three or four years, and in some parts of the country for more than one or two years. If we want to grow more grass and use it for cattle, the land must be kept in arable cultivation, but if the land is kept in pasture for long, the grass deteriorates. A system of agriculture which consists purely of pasture and not of arable farming employs fewer people on the land, and would be less useful to us if it were necessary to grow more of our own food in time of war.
My right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) said he did not like subsidies. He has not found very much agreement in the Committee, although many Members have qualified their approval of subsidies by saying that they hoped they were only temporary. My right hon. Friend did not like them because they might not be permanent and some other means of raising the money, such as a levy, might bring more stability. I wish he had told us how it was possible to apply a levy-subsidy, say to the oat crop, where we import only 7 per cent. of our own consumption. Whatever kind of method you adopt, no one policy is more permanent than another, because no Parliament can bind its successor. Whatever method we choose for assisting agriculture must depend upon one thing alone, and that is what the people of this country as a whole decide ought to be the position of agriculture in our national life. That will always be the determining factor.
It may be argued and indeed it used to be the dominating political theory, that it would be to the greatest general advantage if agriculture were left to the natural play of economic forces, even if land went out of cultivation or went down to grass and fewer men were employed upon the land, and that if we concentrated upon producing more manufactured goods to pay for the additional foodstuffs we should require, the aggregate amount

1911
of the national wealth would be greater. I have no doubt that it would, or, at least, that the aggregate amount of our claim to receive wealth would be greater. But if, for social reasons, or for reasons of national safety in time of war, or perhaps because we may wish to preserve that part of our national culture and tradition which is dependent on country life—or if for any reason we think it is a good thing for a nation to have roots in its own soil, and we desire to maintain or increase our present level of production, we must then give to the farmer some insurance against the uncertainties of modern commerce, which often put out agricultural life in a state of great dependence on the development of new lands abroad, or on the commercial policy of foreign Governments, or on changes of climate in some distant part of the world, or even on the operations of some group of financiers in New York, which certainly cannot be foreseen by the British farmer and cannot be controlled by the rulers of this country.
For the last 60 years arable farming in this country has only been able to continue, even at its very much reduced level of production and with a smaller number of agricultural labourers, becauseè it has been indirectly subsidised for reasons
which were other than economic reasons. It has been thus indirectly subsidised by the fact that owners of land have put capital into it for non-economic reasons, not expecting to receive any return—a method of subsidy which is very unequal and very unfair as between one piece of land and another, since it depends on the outside resources of the person who happens to be the owner; and very often those who have the longest connection with the soil are those who are least able to subsidise their own land. But the proposals of this Resolution do not consist of any unconditional subsidy. Indeed, the main part of them, which deals with cereals, will not in this year cost the taxpayer any money at all. They are not really a policy of subsidies; they are rather a policy of insurance, which will give to the cultivator some possibility of reliance, not on our dispositions to supply him with sums of money, but on his own ability to preserve the usefulness of the soil.
Mr. Price: I beg to move, to leave out lines 9 to 33.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 121.

Division No. 245.]

AYES.

[10.18 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Colfox, Major W. P.

Furness, S. N.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Colman, N. C. D.

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Albery, Sir Irving

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Goldie, N. B.

Apsley, Lord

Cox, H. B. T.

Gower, Sir R. V.

Aske, Sir R. W.

Crooke, J. S.

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Grant-Ferris, R.

Atholl, Duchess of

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Granville, E. L.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Crossley, A. C.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Barrie, Sir C. C.

Cruddas, Col. B.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Culverwell, C. T.

Grimston, R. V.

Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

Bernays, R. H.

Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Blaker, Sir R.

Dower, Major A. V. G.

Hannah, I. C.

Boothby, R. J, G.

Drown, C.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Boyce, H. Leslie

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Duncan, J. A. L,

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Eastwood, J. F.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Eckersley, P. T.

Hepworth, J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Higgs, W. F.

Bull, B. B.

Ellis, Sir G.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Burghley, Lord

Emery, J. F.

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Burton, Col. H. W.

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Hopkinson, A.

Gartland, J. R H.

Errington, E.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Carver, Major W. H.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Gary, R. A.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Hunter, T.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Everard, W. L.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Channon, H.

Fildes, Sir H.

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Christie, J. A.

Findlay, Sir E.

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Fleming, E. L.

Keeling, E. H.

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Fremantle, Sir F. E

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Pilkington, R.

Spens, W. P.

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Radford, E. A.

Storey, S.

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Ramsbotham, H.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Lindsay, K. M.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Rankin, Sir R.

Stuart, Han. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Loftus, P. C,

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Sutcliffe, H.

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Rayner, Major R, H.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Tate, Mavis C.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C, G.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Thomas, J. P. L.

McCorquedale, M. S.

Raid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Remer, J. R.

Turton, R. H.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Wakefield, W. W.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Row, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Mellor, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Rothschild, J. A. de

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Rowlands, G.

Wells, S. R.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Russell, Sir Alexander

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Salmon, Sir I.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Salt, E. W.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Munro, P.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Nall, Sir J.

Savery, Sir Servington

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Scott, Lord William

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Wise, A. R.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

Owen, Major G.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

Peat, C. U.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Perkins, W. R. D.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Major Sir George Davies and Mr.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Cross.

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Muff, G.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Groves, T. E.

Naylor, T. E.

Adamson, W. M.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Paling, W.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Hall, J. H. (Whiteehapel)

Parker, J.

Ammon, C. G.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Parkinson, J. A.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Harvey, T. E. (Eng, Univ's.)

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Price, M. P.

Banfield, J. W.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Barnes, A. J.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Ridley, G.

Barr, J.

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Riley, B.

Batey, J.

Holdsworth, H.

Ritson, J.

Bellenger, F. J.

Hollins, A.

Rowson, G.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Jagger, J.

Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

Broad, F. A.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Seely, Sir H. M.

Bromfield, W.

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Sexton, T. M.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

John, W.

Silkin, L.

Burke, W. A.

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Silverman, S. S.

Cape, T.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Simpson, F. B.

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Chafer, D.

Kelly, W. T.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Cluse, W. S.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Cocks, F. S.

Kirby, B. V.

Sorensen, R. W.

Cove, W. G.

Kirkwood, D.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Daggar, G.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Lathan, G.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Lawson, J. J.

Thurtle, E.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Leach, W.

Tinker, J. J.

Day, H.

Leonard, W.

Viant, S. P.

Dobbie, W.

Leslie, J. R.

Walkden, A. G.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Logan, D. G.

Walker, J.

Ede, J. C.

Lunn, W.

Watson, W. McL.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

McEntee, V. La T.

Welsh, J. C.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

McGhee, H. G.

Westwood, J.

Frankel, D.

McGovern, J.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Gallacher, W.

MacLaren, A.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Gardner, B. W.

Maclean, N.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Gibbins, J.

Marshall, F.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

Messer, F.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Milner, Major J.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Montague, F.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

10.29 p.m.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: I beg to move, in line 47, after the word "appointed,"
1914
to insert "in the case of England and Wales."

1915
The purpose of this Amendment, which stands in my name and that of my hon. Friends, is to retain for Scotland the general autonomy in administration which, under the Scottish Office, we now enjoy. The Amendment has for its second purpose—and this is the direct object—the preserving of the present high standard of veterinary services which we have in Scotland. It is unnecessary for me to say in this Committee that Scotsmen value very greatly their present separate administration. It took us a great many years and great effort to obtain that autonomy, and I do not think there is a Scotsman in this House, of whatever party, whether he represents a Scottish or an English seat, who would not hesitate to abolish that separate system. I do not wish to strain the point nor in any way to exaggerate, but it is scarcely too much to say that the scheme which is outlined in the Resolution before us strikes at the whole basis of separate administration in Scotland. Consider precisely what it involves. It proposes first to retain in the hands of Whitehall, that is to say under central control from London, the services now administered under the Diseases of Animals Acts, that is, services dealing with contagious diseases of a widespread and sudden character, necessitating emergency measures, diseases such as foot-and-mouth disease, swine fever and so on.
A second proposal is to take over from the local authorities in Scotland, and the supervision of the Scottish Office, the various services now administered in Scotland under a series of different Measures, including the Milk and Dairies Act, the Attested Herd Scheme, the Milk (Special Designation) Order, Meat Inspection and other schemes. These services, by the admission of everyone who has any knowledge of them, are of a high standard, a much higher standard, I believe, than is to be found south of the Border. I will offer the Committee two tests in proof of that assertion. I will give first the test of the number of veterinary inspectors working under local authorities in Scotland and the number of inspections they carry out. Under the Milk and Dairies Act, 1914, the duty was laid on local authorities in Scotland to carry out at least one clinical inspection per annum
1916
of the dairies in the country. There is nothing comparable to that in the law of England. Local authorities in this country have no such duty imposed upon them. They have the power, which they may use as they desire. In that respect Scotland has shown the progress which we generally associate with it.
That is not all. In the course of years since 1914, under the continual pressure of the Scottish Office and of different Secretaries of State, the annual inspection has been multiplied by three, so that in 75 per cent. of local authority areas in Scotland there are no fewer than three inspections per annum of the cows and dairies. That is a very considerable advance in the direction that all of us desire, and I submit that it is proof of the high standard of our veterinary services. To carry out that inspection, our local authorities employ 42 full-time veterinary surgeons and 58 part-time veterinary Burgeons. I do not know what the figures are in England, but I hardly think the proportion can be anything like as high.
There is a second test that I would invite the Committee to consider as a proof of the high standard of our services in Scotland, and that is the fact that the process of the cleaning up of our herds had advanced to a very considerable extent. The scheme of the Resolution is designed to take away from Scottish authorities and the supervision of the Scottish Office the whole control of this and the other services which I have described. Therefore, it is not a small piece of work that is being transferred from Scotland to central control in Whitehall; it is a major part of our public health services.
If it is assumed that the system of separate administration for Scotland is wrong, then, of course, this scheme is logical and right, but if we are to maintain the present arrangements by which Scottish affairs are administered by a separate department, then this scheme is illogical and unjustified. I submit that it is no answer to say that disease knows no boundaries, and that emergency measures in such cases as foot-and-mouth disease and swine fever, make it necessary to have a single control to obtain lightning action. I cannot imagine that it is impossible to invent an administrative system by which instant action required

1917
in London cannot also be taken in Scotland. The telephone is there, and telegrams are available. Therefore, on the grounds of administration I contend that this legislation is wrong. My second argument in support of the Amendment is from the point of view of the services now enjoyed by Scotland. I recognise that our duty in this House is to take the broad national view, but at some moments in our daily work we are bound to consider the Scottish side, and I suggest that if this scheme is carried through, Scotland and Scottish services are going to suffer. I will try to explain why.
Mr. George Griffiths: We understand it now.
Mr. Stewart: I am not sure that the hon. Member does understand, and I hope he will do me the courtesy to hear my argument. This may be a matter of some hilarity to some hon. Members, but to Scottish Members it is a matter of great importance. I think it will be impossible—I have taken advice upon this—to bring the standard of the veterinary services in England up to that now enjoyed in Scotland within a reasonable measure of years, and for the reason that there are not the veterinary surgeons available to provide the whole country with the same intensive inspection which is enjoyed North of the Border. There are not veterinary surgeons available to bring the standard in the two countries up to the same level. What will be the effect of that? I can see only one effect and that is to draw away some of the services of the veterinary staff which we now enjoy in Scotland and, therefore, to lower our present standards. That is not for the good of our country, and as an unblushing Scotsman, proud of the services that have been built up in Scotland, I move this Amendment in the very earnest hope that my right hon. Friend—I hope he will consider that I have moved the Amendment reasonably and moderately—will meet the very natural, widespread and deeply-felt sentiments of my country, and by some slight adjustment in the administration of this scheme maintain that autonomy of Government of which we are so proud.
10.40 p.m.
Mr. James Brown: I beg to support the Amendment. I am very glad, Sir, that you have given another unblushing Scots-
1918
man the opportunity of seconding the Amendment. I do not intend to speak for more than one or two minutes. I think the case for the Amendment has been admirably put by the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart), and I am glad that he has put it so well, because as far as I am concerned, I hope that if the adjustment is not made, the hon. Member will press the Amendment to a Division. I am speaking as the representative of a very large agricultural constituency, and as late as six o'clock this evening I received a very long telegram begging me to support any Amendment moved with the object of preventing the services that we have in Scotland from being minimised in any way.
I have not the knowledge to say whether the services are better in England or in Scotland, but I know that we should be safer with our Department in Edinburgh, so that Scotsmen and Scots veterinary surgeons might have full opportunities and our services might not be in any way diminished. I trust that this Amendment will meet with a kindly response from the right hon. Gentleman, who is a Scotsman. He knows perfectly well that what I am saying is absolutely true. Too many things have gone to London from Edinburgh, and we wish to retain this one at least. I trust the Minister will give us the assurance for which we ask by accepting the Amendment.
10.43 p.m.
Mr. Gallacher: On several occasions it has been stated that the policy of His Majesty's Government is more and more to apply a policy of devolution in regard to Scotland and Wales, but in this case we have the reverse process, and it is being operated at a time when the people of Scotland are increasingly feeling that matters particularly affecting them should be discussed more in Edinburgh under our own administration, rather than here at the national centre. If the Amendment is taken to a Division and only the Scots Members vote, it will be carried by an overwhelming majority. The difficulty we are in is that we are always up against masses of Sassenachs.
I ask that the Amendment should be taken to a Division and that English and Welsh Members on the other side should refrain from voting. I am willing to consent, if other Scots Members will agree, to English and Welsh Members

1919
on this side voting, but I emphasise the fact that if only Scots Members voted, the Amendment would be carried. Therefore, I ask the Minister to make a concession. If he does not do so, we will see to it, whether the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) wants it or not, that the Amendment is taken to a Division. Surely, after the speech which the hon. Member has made, he will not dare to rise and say that he wishes to withdraw the Amendment. We do not want anything of that sort. Either the concession is made or the Amendment will be taken to a Division, and if the Scots Members find that they are to be defeated every time, there is going to be trouble some time.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. Wedderburn: I am sure my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. J. Brown) and the hon. Gentleman for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) will not suppose that the considerations which they have so reasonably advanced did not occur to us before these proposals were framed, or that we had not already given long and careful consideration to the arguments which they have now put forward. My hon. Friend supported his Amendment by two arguments. First he expressed the fear that the admittedly high standard of administration in regard to tuberculosis in Scotland might be reduced as a result of this proposal. Secondly, he thought that it might derogate from the independence of the Scottish services an independence which most of us, whether we are Sassenachs or not, would agree is generally desirable.
On his first point, it is true that the Milk and Dairies Act began to be applied in Scotland in 1925, whereas in England no similar steps were taken until the passing of the Milk Act in 1934. Therefore, for 12 years we have now had a very efficient service in Scotland for the eradication of tuberculosis which has resulted in there being more attested herds and a smaller proportion of tubercular-affected cows in non-attested herds, in Scotland than in England. There is not, I think, the slightest reason why the efficiency of that service should be in any way affected by this centralisation. On the contrary, I think that backward areas are more
1920
likely to be brought up to the standard of the more progressive authorities in Scotland than they would otherwise be. My right hon. Friend the Minister is very much alive to the administrative advantages of securing the closest possible connection between the Scottish veterinary service and Scottish opinion, and in order to secure this, he is prepared to consider the appointment of a separate permanent officer in Edinburgh to keep in touch with the Scottish officers. I can also give my hon. Friend the assurance that there will certainly be no reduction in the number of inspections yearly, but that on the contrary there will probably be an increased number of inspections in the minority of counties.
In regard to my hon. Friend's second argument, he is not quite accurate in representing this as a serious change. It is not nearly such a revolutionary change as that which would be brought about by the acceptance of his Amendment, because that would involve a separate service for all animal diseases in Edinburgh. The Diseases of Animals Act has been a United Kingdom service for the last 4o years. Under that service is administered not only such things as sheep scab and foot-and-mouth disease, but also the tuberculosis Orders in regard to the slaughter of beasts. All that is done at present by the Ministry of Agriculture, but if you are to have a separate tuberculosis service in Scotland it must involve removing the Diseases of Animals Act administration from the present United Kingdom service to a separate new service in Edinburgh. There are, I think, serious objections to that course. In the first place, it would take a long time to train the necessary staff; in the second place we should not have enough veterinary surgeons of our own in Scotland to deal with a serious outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. At present when such an outbreak occurs, we can have "shock troops" rushed to the affected area from all over the country by the' Ministry of Agriculture, but we have not the resources in Scotland alone to do that kind of thing.
Let the Committee remember that Scotland is an exporter of cattle to England. It is very important that the exports of Scottish farmers should not be interfered with, and if you are to have separate centres it might involve the closing of

1921
Scottish cattle to England. It is to our advantage to have a centralised system. We must recognise that foot-and-mouth microbes most improperly refuse to acknowledge the political boundaries which man and history have established. At this late hour I do not think that the Committee would wish me to go as fully as I might otherwise have done into all the arguments against this Amendment, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will accept my assurance that we have given this matter long and careful consideration and that we arrived at this decision on a careful balance of the advantages and disadvantages.
Mr. Davidson: The hon. Gentleman stated that his right hon. Friend had decided to appoint an officer in Edinburgh. Will that officer he responsible to the Minister of Agriculture or to the Secretary of State for Scotland?
Mr. Wedderburn: No, to the Minister of Agriculture.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: I appreciate the attempt which the hon. Gentleman has made to meet our fears and I recognise that he has gone a considerable way. But I am still concerned about two points. Will this officer and his staff be stationed in the offices of the Scottish Office in Edinburgh and, therefore, in intimate daily touch with other members of the Scottish Office? Secondly, will the hon. Gentleman give this clear assurance to the Committee, that this change will not in any way cause a decline in the services now performed by the veterinary officers in Scotland? If these two assurances are given, I should feel disposed not to press the Amendment, but not otherwise.
Mr. Wedderburn: In regard to the first question, certainly the officer will be in close daily touch with the officials of the
Scottish Office. Whether he will occupy a room in the Scottish Office depends entirely on how much rent the Ministry of Agriculture will pay us. With regard to the hon. Member's second question, I thought that I had made it clear that there would be no deterioration in the present standard of Scottish services, but that, on the contrary, it is our intention to raise the standard.
Mr. Davidson: I want to ask the hon. Gentleman two questions. I asked him about the duties of the officer stationed in Edinburgh. I want to ask him to state frankly to the House whether this officer will be in only an advisory capacity or will he have any powers? Secondly, will he be controlled by the central organisation here with regard to the schemes issued from the Minister of Agriculture?
Mr. Wedderburn: He will be one of the principal officers of the Ministry of Agriculture. His function will be to carry out the work in Edinburgh. In many services which are United Kingdom services there are branch officers, as is the case with the Ministry of Labour, for instance. This officer will supervise the Scottish part of the service. It will be a United Kingdom service under the Ministry of Agriculture and he will be there in an executive capacity under the Ministry of Agriculture.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: This short Debate has served to bring out assurances of the greatest value on particular points, and I accept them. I have the specific assurance that the services are to be improved rather than reduced, and I am prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
Hon. Members: No.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 111; Noes, 210.

Division No. 246.]

AYES.

[10.56 p.m.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Chater, O.

Graham D. M. (Hamilton)

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Cocks, F. S.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Adamson, W. M.

Cove, W. G.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Daggar, G.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Ammon, C. G.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Dobbie, W.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Banfield, J. W.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Barnes, A. J.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Harris, Sir P. A.

Barr, J.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Batey, J.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Broad, F. A.

Frankel, D.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

Gardner, B. W.

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Burke, W. A.

Garro Jones, G. M.

Hollins, A.

Cape, T.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Jagger, J.

Charleton, H. C.

Gibbins, J.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Messer, F.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

John, W.

Milner, Major J.

Sorensen, R. W.

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Montague, F.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Kelly, W. T.

Muff, G.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Thurtle, E.

Kirby, B. V.

Parker, J.

Tinker, J. J.

Kirkwood, D.

Parkinson, J. A.

Viant, S. P.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Walkden, A. G.

Lathan, G.

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Walker, J.

Lawson, J. J.

Ridley, G.

Watkins, F. C.

Leach, W.

Ritson, J.

Watson, W. McL.

Leonard, W.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Welsh, J. C.

Leslie, J. R.

Rothschild, J. A. de

Westwood, J.

Logan, D. G.

Rowson, G.

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

Lunn, W.

Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

Wilkinson, Ellen

McEntee, V. La T.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

McGhee, H. G.

Sexton, T. M.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

MacLaren, A.

Silkin, L.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Maclean, N.

Silverman, S. S.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

MacNeill, Weir, L.

Simpson, F. B.

Marshall, F.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Mathers, G.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Mr. Gallacher and Mr. Davidson.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Eckersley, P. T.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Ede, J. C.

Lindsay, K. M.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Albery, Sir Irving

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Loftus, P. C.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Ellis, Sir G.

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Apsley, Lord

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Aske, Sir R. W.

Emery, J. F.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Emmott, C. E. G. C

McCorquodale, M. S.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Errington, E.

McKie, J. H.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Barrie, Sir C. C.

Everard, W. L.

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Fildes, Sir H.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M

Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

Findlay, Sir E.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Bernays, R. H.

Fleming, E. L.

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Furness, S. N.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Boyce, H. Leslie

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Goldie, N. B.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Bromfield, W.

Gower, Sir R. V.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Munro, P.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Grant-Ferris, R.

Nail, Sir J.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Granville E. L.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Bull, B. B.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Burghley, Lord

Gridley, Sir A. B.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Butler, R. A.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. A.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Grimston, R. V.

Owen, Major G.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

Paling, W.

Carver, Major W. H.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Cary, R. A.

Hannah, I. C.

Peat, C. U.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Perkins, W. R. D.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Channon, H.

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Pilkington, R.

Christie, J. A.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Price, M. P.

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Radford, E. A.

Colfox, Major W. P.

Hepworth, J.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Colman, N. C. D.

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Ramsbotham, H.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Higgs, W. F.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Rankin, Sir R.

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Holdsworth, H.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Cox, H. B. T.

Holmes, J. S.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Crooke, J. S.

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Crookshank, Capt. H, F. C.

Hopkin, D.

Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Cross, R. H.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Remer, J. R.

Crossley, A. C.

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Crowder, J. F. E.

Hunter, T.

Riley, B.

Cruddas, Col. B.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Culverwell, C. T.

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

Keeling, E. H.

Rowlands, G.

Drewe, C.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Russell, Sir Alexander

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Kerr, H, W. (Oldham)

Salmon, Sir I.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Salt, E. W.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Eastwood, J. F.

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Savery, Sir Servington

1924

1925

Scott, Lord William

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Wells, S. R.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Sutcliffe, H.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Tate, Mavis C.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Thomas, J. P. L.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Turton, R. H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Spens, W. P.

Wakefield, W. W.

Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Wright, Squadron Leader J. A. C.

Storey, S.

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Waterhouse, Captain C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Major Sir George Davies and Captain Dugdale.

Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

The Deputy-Chairman (Captain Bourne): Mr. Boothby.
11.5 p.m.
Mr. Boothby: Having made certain representations to my right hon. Friend, and having received very satisfactory assurances, I do not propose to move my Amendment.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  EXCHANGE EQUALISATION ACCOUNT [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That it is expedient to increase from three hundred and fifty million pounds to five hundred and fifty million pounds the aggregate amount which may be issued to the Exchange Equalisation Account out of the Consolidated Fund."
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Lieut.-Colonel Colville.

  EXCHANGE EQUALISATION ACCOUNT [MONEY].
    EXCHANGE EQUALISATION ACCOUNT BILL,
    "to increase to five hundred and fifty million pounds the aggregate amount which may be issued to the Exchange Equalisation Account out of the Consolidated Fund"; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 176.]

  NIGERIA [REMISSION OF PAYMENTS].
  Resolution reported,
  "That it is expedient to remit any sums which have become or may become payable to the Exchequer under section three of the Royal Niger Company Act, 1899, and to extinguish the liability for the payment of such sums."
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Ormsby-Gore and Lieut.-Colonel Colville.

  NIGERIA [REMISSION OF PAYMENTS].
    NIGERIA (REMISSION OF PAYMENTS) BILL,
    "to remit any sums which may have become payable to the Exchequer under Section three of the Royal Niger Company Act, 1899, and to extinguish the liability for the payment of such sums"; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 177.]
  TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
  Read the Third time, and passed.
  POST OFFICE AND TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL.
  Read the Third time, and passed.

  CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (ANIMALS) BILL.
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the Third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  11.13 p.m.
  Mr. Tinker: I want to take this opportunity of drawing attention to a case which I have mentioned to the Minister of Labour of a man who was unemployed. He had a number of stamps on his card for the previous two years and he was

  1927
  sent by the Employment Exchange to another class of work. This was sewerage work. There is a sewage scheme under construction where labour was required, and this man was sent. He was told that if he accepted this employment, it would be generally the kind he was used to, it was on the labouring side. He went, and it was drainage work. I am told by the man that the drainage was anywhere from four feet to seven feet in depth on the sewage farm. He was on that job for about 16 weeks, and when he finished he went to claim benefit on the aggregate amount of his stamps, the 28 weeks he had had before and the 16 weeks' work—two years. He was told that the work on which he was employed was a so-called agricultural scheme, and therefore that he could not claim standard benefit because he had not fulfilled the condition as to 30 stamps in the previous two years.
  It seems to me to be a very hard case for two reasons. The first is in regard to his being told that he would come under his own class of work, namely, drainage work. He is a labourer, and in that case it might at least be expected that he would come under the general scheme. In the second place, I think that, where a man has a number of stamps for the previous two years, and is sent to another grade of work. some arrangement ought to be made by which the two sets of stamps could be put under one scheme. It seems most unfortunate that a man should be sent to another class of work, and then told that he falls between the two and that neither can count unless he gets 30 stamps in each separately.
  I went to the Employment Exchange and interviewed the manager with the man. The manager agreed that there was something in my contention, and said that it would be submitted to the authorities. They declared that the man came under the agricultural scheme. I got in touch with the Minister of Labour, and asked him to examine the case. He confirmed the decision already given, and said that, owing to the Act and to the fact that the work was called agricultural work, the two schemes must be kept separate, and the man could not bring the two sets of stamps together. He also told me, apparently trying to mitigate the position, that the man was now in receipt of public assistance, and was getting 28s. a week, so that that prac-
  1928
  tically met the position. I have made inquiries of the man, and he tells me that it is not 28s., but 18s. a week that he is getting, whereas under the general scheme he would have got 32s.
  It is very hard for a man so situated to be told by the exchange to go to a particular grade of work, and then to find, when he gets there, that he can get no benefit in respect of his stamp qualification unless he is able to continue in that employment until he has got 30 stamps. I thought that this matter ought to be brought to the attention of the House, so that something might be done to meet the grave injustice which it involves. I have brought it forward because I think that, where a man has followed one grade of work and has more than 15 stamps for that grade, and is able to get the balance from the other grade, the two sets of stamps ought to be added together and ought to go to the first grade of work; or, if the first set of stamps is the lesser, to the second grade of work when the balance has been obtained. I want the Minister to give a reply to the House as to whether he can meet the situation, or, if he cannot, as to whether he will take this case back and examine it in the light of the fact that this grade of work comes very near to what I would call the general labourer's class of work. It is drainage work such as the man was doing, and is comparable to the ordinary work under the general scheme.
  11.20 p.m.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): The hon. Member is most assiduous in taking up difficult cases which come to his notice, and he always puts his case in a very fair way. We have had some correspondence about the matter, as he has told us, and I pointed out in a long letter to him that this is one of the difficulties arising out of the decision made when the scheme for insuring agricultural workers was passed last year. It was not overlooked that one of the hardest of all cases would be the case of where a man worked sometimes in industrial and sometimes in agricultural work, and was not able to qualify under either scheme for benefit. It was realised before the Bill was printed. I would call his attention to the report of the Statutory Committee, Command Paper No. 4786, paragraph 121. There is a very full explanation there of

  1929
  an attempt to solve the very problem which the hon. Gentleman has raised. In the drafting of the original Bill, there was no more knotty problem than this—how could we get a scheme to insure agricultural workers, while at the same time doing our best to safeguard the case of the man who was sometimes in one employment and sometimes in another? In the paragraph I have mentioned, there is a suggested scheme, put up by the Ministry of Labour. When we went into details we found, as previous Governments had found, that it was impossible to get a scheme to insure agricultural workers on precisely the same basis as industrial workers. We found that it was necessary to have a completely separate scheme for agriculture, and it is because the agricultural scheme is completely separate and the industrial scheme is on a different basis with different rules, that we are unable to do what the hon. Member asks and make the contributions cumulative, one with the other.
  First of all, in the industrial scheme there is no ratio rule for the first six months of benefit. The employed person pays his contribution and draws his benefit. Of course, there are hard cases there. There are men who nearly qualify but not quite, and then are out of work and do not draw benefit because they have not qualified. When we came to deal with the agricultural scheme, we found it was impossible to draw up a scheme which would be fair to the agricultural worker. We had to be very careful that the benefits went to genuine agricultural workers. The last thing that the House would want to do, and, I am sure, the last thing that the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) would want to do, would be to have a scheme which would mean a number of people who were not in the normal sense agricultural workers being brought within the ambit of the scheme, with the danger of making it difficult for the agricultural worker to get his full benefit for his contribution. We devised the ratio rule, and that is the fundamental distinction between the industrial scheme and the agricultural scheme. The House also knows that more contributions are paid by the industrial workers than by the agricultural workers, and naturally the benefit is higher, but the structure is quite different. The benefit is drawn strictly according to a ratio of days of unemployment to days of
  1930
  benefit. When we went into this, it was fully discussed in Standing Committee A and hon. Members who are further interested in this matter owing to the fact that the hon. Member for Leigh has taken the trouble to bring it before the House tonight, will find that the late Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour made a most careful and exhaustive examination of the very kind of difficulty which has actually arisen. My surprise has been, and the surpise of all those connected with the Ministry, is not that this case has arisen, but that we have had so few difficulties after nearly a year's working of the scheme. I can assure the Member that we went into this case most closely and found that the work which the man was then doing was work which could only be classified as agricultural.
  Mr. Kelly: I understood that it was sewage work—a corporation sewage scheme. That is not agricultural work.
  Mr. Brown: I understand after my inquiry that the work is agricultural work as classified under the agricultural scheme.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: It was on a sewage farm.
  Mr. Brown: That does riot invalidate what I said, that the work is agricultural work; and he was therefore asked to pay a sum under the agricultural scheme. It was unfortunate for him—we are always very sorry when there are these hard cases—that when he fell out of work, he had not in his general account for industrial work enough stamps to qualify for benefit and not enough stamps under the agricultural scheme.
  Mr. Lawson: Who decides a question like that?
  Mr. Brown: It is always the responsibility of the Minister of Labour, as the hon. Member well knows from his experience of the Ministry. It is always the duty of the Minister of Labour to decide as to scope, and after careful inquiry, I decided the matter.
  Mr. Kelly: It is most unjust.
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member talks about injustice. It is easy to use a general term of that kind, but he knows that we have tried to frame a great social Measure like this and to give the maximum of benefit to the maximum

  1931
  number of people. We have solved a problem which was not solved before, with the result that over 600,000 agricultural workers are now insured who were not insured before. These hard cases we regret, but the structure of the Act is such that I cannot give the hon. Member for Leigh the assurance he has asked for.
  Mr. E. Smith: We cannot discuss the matter further now, but it is a very serious question. Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to receive a deputation in order to go into the question?
  Mr. Brown: I shall be very happy to see any hon. Members about this point or any other cases they may have. We have been very surprised at the Ministry that we have not had more cases. If hon. Members will look at the paragraph they will find that it is foreseen by the Ministry.
  Mr. Kelly: Not this work.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine minutes after Eleven o'clock.

  AIR RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  AIR RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  EDUCATION (PHYSICAL TRAINING).
  EDUCATION (PHYSICAL TRAINING).
  AEROPLANE ENGINES (EXPORT).
  AEROPLANE ENGINES (EXPORT).
AGRICULTURE.
  MILK MARKETING BOARD LEVY.
  MILK MARKETING BOARD LEVY.
  TAXATION (COMPARATIVE STATISTICS).
  TAXATION (COMPARATIVE STATISTICS).
  BRITISH SUGAR CORPORATION (COAL).
  BRITISH SUGAR CORPORATION (COAL).
SCOTLAND.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS AND PUBLIC ASSISTANCE.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS AND PUBLIC ASSISTANCE.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  UNEMPLOYMENT EXPENDITURE (SCOTLAND).
  UNEMPLOYMENT EXPENDITURE (SCOTLAND).
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (DRILL HALLS).
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (DRILL HALLS).
  SOUTH AFRICA (PROTECTORATES).
  SOUTH AFRICA (PROTECTORATES).

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Wyfold—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

ROCHDALE CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
DUNSTABLE GAS AND WATER BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments: further Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BIRMINGHAM TAME AND REA MAIN SEWERAGE DISTRICT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WISBECH WATER) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (YEADON WATER) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTERS OF THE CROWN BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, this Bill passed its Second Reading amid general assent.
850
On the Committee stage it was not amended, and therefore I should normally merely move its Third Reading in a formal way. On the Committee stage, however, my noble friend the Marquess of Salisbury, in speaking on an Amendment to sever the positions of Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury, made certain observations about Treasury control. He made them in the course of the withdrawal of his Amendment, which he was good enough to make, inasmuch as the Government did not accept it, and the result was that I had not any opportunity to deal with his statements, which unfortunately seemed to convey some reflection on certain members of the Civil Service and therefore not to be remarks which ought to pass altogether unnoticed. Anything that my noble friend says naturally carries weight both inside the House and outside, and I am sure that he will be the first to desire that I should correct any impression which may have been created but which is not altogether justified in fact.
My noble friend said that the provision of the Bill which linked the position of Prime Minister with the office of First Lord was inserted as a result of what he called:
"a new effort by the Treasury to get control of the rest of the Civil Service."
My noble friend explained to the House what he meant:
"… the Treasury have been making a strong effort for many years to assume control of the rest of the Civil Service."
And that your Lordships had all witnessed that process. He went on to say that
"the hegemony of the leadership of the Treasury over the other offices, and that of the permanent head of the Treasury over the other services, has never been really admitted."
And he suggested that some official—presumably, I suppose, the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury—had "by some dexterous suggestion to the draftsman" surreptitiously attempted to get introduced into this Bill, "designed for a totally different purpose,"
"a few words in order to establish the Treasury as the head of the Civil Service."
I should like if I may, with your Lordships' indulgence, to deal with those statements.
So far from the Treasury making a new effort to get control of the rest of

851
the Civil Service, I think I can satisfy your Lordships that from the time the Civil Service was created a control by the Treasury over the Civil Service has always been recognised; and that, instead of the hegemony or the leadership of the Treasury over the other offices never having been really admitted, it has been repeatedly admitted both in another place and in the Service itself. Although your Lordships have witnessed, no doubt, a process of strengthening the Treasury control during the last twenty years—at any rate since the War—that has not been at all an effort by the Treasury to assume control, but an effort by Parliament and by successive Governments to make the control, which was always recognised, effective.
If I may, I shall have to go back a little to make that good. In 1855 the Civil Service Commission was first appointed. Before that date every Ministry appointed its own staff, mainly by favouritism, nepotism or anything of that kind. Even before 1855, however, it appears from the evidence of Sir Robert Peel, who was first Lord of the Treasury and Prime Minister, before a Select Committee in 1850, that the major posts in what became the Civil Service were always subject to the control and advice of the Prime Minister. In 1855 the Civil Service Commission was appointed, and it was not until 1867 that the office of Permanent Secretary to the Treasury was first created. We have not got at present, we have not got anywhere, the papers relating to the actual appointments, so that I cannot produce the actual minute of appointment in the first instance. Nevertheless, as early as 1872, which was only five years after the appointment, it was recognised that the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury was the head of the Civil Service.
That appears from a debate in the House of Commons on the giving of a salary of £2,500 to an Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, where the suggestion was made that this could not be done because other Under-Secretaries would ask for the same. To that demurrer rejoinder was made: "Well, there is already £2,500 paid to the Permanent Secretary of the Treasury, and therefore there is nothing in that argument." The answer given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
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Mr. Robert Lowe, as he then was, was this:
"The Secretary of the Treasury is not an Under-Secretary, he is the head of the Civil Service."
That was in 1872. In 1889, in Todd's Parliamentary Government, there is this statement:
"The Permanent Secretary [to the Treasury] is the official head of the Department and of the whole Civil Service."
So that at that date, at any rate, it was recognised both inside Parliament and by those who study constitutional matters that the Permanent Secretary of the Treasury was head of the Civil Service. In those early days the control of the Treasury was exercised first of all by a process of recruitment for all classes of posts throughout the Service being placed on a regular basis, subject to Treasury approval of the schemes for selection. Secondly, Treasury sanction came to be required for special appointments outside such schemes; and thirdly, Treasury sanction was specifically required in respect of numbers, pay and classification, in the case of all civil establishments. And the Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury was always treated as entitled to be consulted as to who should be appointed to major posts in the Civil Service.
That was half a century ago, but no doubt in the latter part of the nineteenth century, and the early part of the twentieth century, Treasury control came to be somewhat relaxed, and that was made a matter of complaint by Parliament and by Royal Commissions. In 1912 a Royal Commission was appointed on the Civil Service because of criticisms made in another place, and that Commission, after enumerating defects which in their judgment existed in the organisation of the Civil Service at that time, recommended that the Treasury should be strengthened for the purpose of establishing a more effective control over the organisation of the Civil Service. In 1917 a Select Committee was appointed on National Expenditure, and that Committee reported that the degree of Treasury control then being exercised fell far short of the needs of the case. In 1918 the Machinery of Government Committee, presided over by Lord Haldane, was appointed to give effect to the re-

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commendations of those two Commissions, and they made detailed recommendations as to the manner in which Treasury control ought to be strengthened. Their Report was published on December 14, 1918. That Report was considered by the Government of that day, by a very strong Committee, consisting of Mr. Lloyd George, Mr. Bonar Law, Mr. Austen Chamberlain, Lord Milner and Sir Auckland Geddes. They prepared a definite scheme which was submitted to the Cabinet and embodied in a Treasury Minute published over the signature of Mr. Baldwin, who was then Financial Secretary to the Treasury, which codified the position of affairs in 1919.
The statement in that document was that
"The functions of the Permanent Secretary will include responsibility for the organisation of the Treasury, for the general supervision and co-ordination of the work of the Treasury as a whole and for advising the Board. He will act as permanent head of the Civil Service, and advise the First Lord in regard to Civil Service appointments and decorations."
That was in 1919. Since that date the position has been recognised repeatedly in Reports of Committees, of which I will give merely a selection. In 1920 there was a Committee on Civil Service pay which was presided over by Mr. Asquith, and its Report contained this statement:
"The Secretary of the Treasury receives, in addition to his salary and bonus as a Departmental head, £500 a year to mark his position as permanent head of the Civil Service"
In 1922 the Report of the Royal Commission on Honours contained this statement:
"The respective claims (i.e. to honours) are weighed and considered by the Prime Minister in conjunction with the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury, whose duty it is, as head of the Civil Service, to advise the Prime Minister on Civil Service decorations."
The Alan Anderson Committee in 1923 reported in these terms:
"In private employment the duties assigned to senior posts in the Civil Service carry a higher salary. For example, many large companies pay their general manager more than three times the salary of the Secretary to the Treasury, who is the permanent head of the Civil Service and chief financial adviser of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister."
And in 1924 a Sub-Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence, whose Report was published, stated who shall
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normally be the members of the Committee of Imperial Defence, including, among others,
"The Permanent Secretary to the Treasury as head of the Civil Service."
I could give further examples, but I hope that is sufficient to indicate to your Lordships, first of all, that the position of Treasury control has existed from the very days when the Civil Service as we now know it was constituted in the middle of the last century; that the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury has been recognised as the head of the Civil Service during the whole of that time; and that what has happened during the last twenty years has been that Parliament and Royal Commissions have insisted that Treasury control should be rendered more effective, and have persuaded the Government to make the control a more real thing than it had been in the past. Finally, so far from its not being recognised that the permanent head of the Treasury was the head of the Civil Service, Committee after Committee has definitely stated from 1872 down to 1924 that that was the office which he held. I venture to make this rather lengthy explanation because, as I said, anything that comes from my noble friend naturally attracts attention and naturally demands respect and consideration. I have, therefore, felt it my duty to deal somewhat exhaustively with the observations which he made. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I need not say that I am extremely obliged to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for his full explanation of the position of the Treasury. I need not add that I had not of course the opportunity of seeing all those documents which the noble and learned Viscount has cited, and no doubt if I had seen them my observations would have been couched in rather different language. The advantage of discussions in your Lordships' House on several stages of a Bill is that as the stages proceed the explanations become a little fuller. That is, of course, of great advantage for the public information. As to the position of the Treasury, I think the noble and learned Viscount has established by the documents which he cited that the Treasury is at the head of the Civil Service and that

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the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury is the principal representative of the Treasury, and in that capacity has a certain leadership. The proper head of the Treasury is undoubtedly the First Lord of the Treasury, and I certainly never contested his position; on the contrary, the greater the control of the First Lord of the Treasury over the Treasury the better for all concerned.
The real thing that we require to avoid is anything like the gradual invasion of bureaucratic power in this country. What we want is permanently to maintain what we possess, and what we possess in the highest degree, which is the government of this country by Parliament and by the representatives of Parliament—namely, His Majesty's Government. They are the people who ought to control the Civil Service or any Department in the Civil Service, and, so far as the First Lord of the Treasury is concerned, I should not like in anything I said to derogate from his power in the least. No doubt if he is not Prime Minister he is himself not supreme, for the Prime Minister, if he occupies another office, which he may do, is the real supreme head of the Government, and the First Lord of the Treasury, though not exactly his subordinate any more than any other of my noble friends on that Bench are subordinates of the Prime Minister—they are his colleagues—like them, accepts his leadership and ultimate control of the Government of the country. I do not desire for a moment to derogate from the power of the First Lord of the Treasury, but let us be quite clear that we do not want the permanent head of the Treasury to interfere too much in the government of this country. It is because, whilst I had the opportunity of seeing it close, that I detected a tendency in that direction that I felt called upon to make the observations I did.
I should like to say—because it is only right I should say—that I have a great respect for the present occupant of the office of permanent head of the Treasury. I believe him to be a civil servant of the highest character and one who has performed great services for this country. He happens to be a personal friend of my own and I am very proud to have his friendship. But that does not alter
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my view that in that capacity he ought not to have too much control of the government of this country. Government should reside not in the permanent officials but in the Parliamentary chief. And it is because I was aware long before the debate took place on this Bill that there was a tendency in the other direction, and I thought I detected a tendency on the part of the head of the Treasury to interfere with the powers of the permanent heads of the other Departments, that I said what I did. And I think the noble and learned Viscount will find, if he makes inquiry, that the apprehension which I expressed is shared by a good many members of the Civil Service and that I do not stand alone in that respect. But I agree, and I ought candidly to admit, that I was not aware of the documents which the noble and learned Viscount has cited. I fully accept the statement which he has made and recognise that if I had known what he knows I should not have couched what I had to say in the language that I used.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I would only like to associate myself with what my noble friend has said, that the First Lord of the Treasury, or rather the Treasury Board with the First Lord as its head, is the organism which exercises Treasury control. The Permanent Secretary to the Treasury is the civil servant whose duty it is to advise the First Lord on the matters which come before him in relation to the Civil Service but the First Lord is himself, no doubt, entirely the person responsible to Parliament and to the country for the exercise of Treasury control. I think Treasury control does not really mean anything more than the control by the First Lord of the Treasury, and the headship of the Civil Service does not really convey very much more than that the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury is the person charged with the duty in the Civil Service of advising the Prime Minister on Civil Service matters. I entirely accept what my noble friend said in that regard.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 3 [Additional salaries to Cabinet Ministers, who hold offices at salaries less than five thousand a year]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to leave out "which" ["any Minister of the Crown to which this section applies"] and insert "whom." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I feel sure that my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack will be the first to agree that it is impolite and indeed improper to refer at any rate in an Act of Parliament to a Minister of the Crown as neuter. I therefore have much confidence in moving the small Amendment which stands in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 20, leave out ("which") and insert ("whom").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I should like to make my apologies to my noble friend, who is always a purist in grammar and who constantly keeps us straight in relation to some of these Bills. I have communicated with the draftsman, and he desires me to express his indebtedness to my noble friend for having detected the mistake. We gladly accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9:
Capacity of persons to whom salaries are payable under Act to sit and vote in House of Commons.
9.—(1) Subject as hereinafter provided no person to whom a salary is payable under this Act shall by reason of his being the holder of the office or place in respect of which such a salary is payable, be rendered incapable of being elected, or of sitting and voting, as a member of the House of Commons:
Provided that—

(a) the number of persons entitled to sit and vote in that House while they are Ministers of the Crown named in Part I of the First Schedule to this Act shall not exceed fifteen;

(b) the number of persons entitled to sit and vote in that House while they are Ministers of the Crown named in Part II of the said Schedule shall not exceed three; and

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE THE MARQUESS OF CREWE moved, in subsection (1), to leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert:

(a) the number of persons entitled to sit and vote in that House, while holding any office named in Part I of the First Schedule to this Act, shall be less by two or more than the number of persons holding offices specified in Part I of that Schedule;

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(b) the number of persons entitled to sit and vote in that House, while holding any office named in Part II of the First Schedule to this Act, shall be less by one or more than the number of persons holding offices specified in Part II of that Schedule; and"

The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I need not assure the House that in placing this Amendment on the Paper I had no intention of suggesting any fundamental change either in the Bill or in the Schedules of the Bill. Had that been my purpose I should clearly have proceeded to do so at an earlier stage. The purpose of this Amendment is to lay somewhat stronger emphasis on a principle which I think it is safe to say would be accepted by all Parties in your Lordships' House—that is to say, that in the allocation of the different Ministries there should be a certain number, limited by the terms of the Bill, to those who sit in another place, and that the other members either of the Cabinet or of those included in the Second Schedule should be members of your Lordships' House. That cannot, as the Bill is drawn, be anything more than a recommendation. It is not, curiously enough, obligatory so far as I know on any Minister of the Crown to sit in either House of Parliament. To take an extreme instance, if the Prime Minister to-morrow were to apply to be appointed Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds or of the Manor of Northstead, after having vacated his seat there is nothing so far as I know to prevent his retaining his office as First Lord of the Treasury.
There have been many cases in the past where Ministers have not sat in Parliament. There is the well-known case of Mr. Gladstone who, having been appointed Colonial Secretary by Sir Robert Peel in December, 1845, and having resigned his seat at Newark owing to a conscientious scruple, remained out of Parliament but continued as Colonial Secretary until the Government was defeated and turned out in July of the following year, 1846. There are also some recent instances. Unless I am mistaken there has recently been a case of one of the Scottish Law Officers who had no seat in Parliament for a considerable time but who held his office without complaint from anybody. So far as Mr. Gladstone was concerned, I believe that even his unequalled explanatory powers did not enable him to answer the criticism which was levelled at his retention of office during that period of eight or nine months.

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As some of your Lordships will know, there have been cases where the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has at times not been a member of your Lordships' House. Having been a commoner until his patent is entirely completed, it is possible for him to come and sit as Speaker of the House without any power of speaking or voting. That has actually happened within the knowledge of many of your Lordships.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It happened to me.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Apparently it happened even in the present case. But if any noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack endeavoured to exceed the functions of Speaker and endeavoured to take part in debate, he might easily find himself in the position of a Speaker in the seventeenth century of being forcibly held down on the Woolsack by some noble Lord—perhaps by my noble friend Lord Strabolgi, who is so capable of doing it. When you come to think of it, that is a very strange position. It is conceivable there might be a Ministry composed of Privy Councillors—because nobody can advise the Crown except Privy Councillors—of persons not having a seat in either House of Parliament. It will be said, of course, and there I agree, that it is a situation not exactly likely to arise, but I can conceive some conditions under which, in a modified form, a difficulty might be created by the appointment of Ministers who were not members of either House.
I am sorry, therefore, that when His Majesty's Government were engaged in removing various anomalies attached to the salaries paid to Ministers and, so to speak, were tidying up the whole business, they did not go a step further and, while leaving the terms of the Bill much as they are—that is to say, that the number of Ministers who can sit in one House should not exceed a certain figure—they did not add a further proviso that nobody should be able to retain any of these offices after an interval, say, of two months or whatever might be considered the appropriate interval, unless he were a member of either one House or the other. That is not an Amendment which it would be possible for any of us to move within the terms of the Bill. It would, I fancy, necessitate a change in
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the Title and Preamble of the Bill; and in present circumstances it may be assumed that neither that Amendment nor a still more marked Amendment—namely, that a maximum figure should be allotted to this House as also to another place—would be accepted. As I say, I am sorry that some such step was not taken, and I can only hope we shall not be told it is too late now to make some Amendment of that kind with the agreement of our friends. If that is so, I think it is a regrettable circumstance.
Various difficulties may arise according to the wording of the clause as proposed. It says:
"the number of persons entitled to sit and vote in that House while they are Ministers of the Crown … shall not exceed fifteen."
That would not prevent one or more of them from holding several of the offices included in the list. As we all know, it is by no means uncommon for a Minister to hold more than one office. The noble Marquess opposite, the Secretary of State for India, has also lately, I think, become Secretary of State for Burma. For some time after the division of the Dominions Office and the Colonial Office the two Offices were held by the same Minister, and, if I may refer to my own experience, it twice happened to me to hold the office of Lord Privy Seal in conjunction with two other different offices. How far it is possible to accept the terms of my Amendment, which says that the number of persons entitled to sit and vote in another place shall be less by two or more than the number of persons holding offices specified in Part I of that Schedule, I do not know, but it appears to me to meet the minor difficulty which I have just mentioned. I will not detain your Lordships longer, but I hope the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will be able to say that in so far as this measure is concerned it is the desire of the Government that those members of any Ministry who are not sitting in another place should sit as members of your Lordships' House.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 10, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert the said new paragraphs.—(The Marquess of Crewe.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I readily give the Marquess at once the assurance for which he asks—or very nearly the assurance for which he asks

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—namely, that Ministers who do not sit in the House of Commons should be members of this House. I do not give it quite in an unqualified form, because, as my noble friend himself points out, there have been cases in which Ministers who have not been members of either House have nevertheless held office for quite substantial periods. The Lord Advocate, in 1923 I think it was, was my noble and learned friend Lord Thankerton, then Mr. Watson. He was a Minister for nine months without being a member of another place; and the present Solicitor-General for Scotland, Mr. Reid, has only recently been elected to Parliament in the House of Commons. Therefore I cannot say that we will do away altogether with the power of having such an arrangement; but I do most emphatically assure my noble friend that we should regard it as being entirely outside the purpose of the Bill for members who were not members of either House of Parliament to be appointed and to the detriment of the representation in this House of the Ministry of the day.
I do not think—my noble friend will forgive my saying so—that that is a thing very likely to happen. There may, of course, be extreme Governments. That is always a possible thing, although I hope not a very probable one in this country, but if an extreme Government came into office they probably would operate, not by way of decreasing representation on the Front Bench, but of increasing the representation on the Back Bench, and they would be much more likely to seek to end this House than to hamper their own administration of their business in the House. Your Lordships appreciate that if a Government has not got adequate representation on the Front Bench in this House it suffers inevitably in its efficiency, in the explanation of its case and in the presentation of its Bills. I do not think that it would be very likely for the Government to do that, because the only conceivable object of putting down the representation in this House would probably be to increase the representation in another place, and that is prohibited by the express terms of the Bill as it stands.
I am afraid I cannot accept my noble friend's Amendment. In the first place it is rather a drastic one to make at this stage. It would entail all sorts of consequential Amendments. For instance,
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Clause 9 itself, subsection (2), deals with the position which would arise if at anytime the number of persons who are members of the House of Commons while they are Ministers of the Crown exceeds the number in Clause 9 (1). If that occurs then you have to wait until the number of Ministers in the House of Commons is reduced by death, resignation or otherwise. If my noble friend's proposed words were accepted, a number of consequential Amendments undoubtedly would have to be made. I think my noble friend's intention is exactly the same as the Government's intention, and I do not think there is any real danger of the contingency which my noble friend contemplates arising, because the only conceivable inducement for a Government to do anything of the kind—that is to say, appoint a member of the House of Commons to more than one office and have fewer Ministers in this House than this Bill contemplates—would be to provide extra Ministers in the House of Commons, and that is a thing which they are forbidden to do by the expressed terms of Clause 9. I hope therefore that my noble friend will not press his Amendment, although I hope also he will accept my assurance in the qualified terms which I am able to use.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, after the explanation which the noble and learned Viscount has given, I beg to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

GREY SQUIRRELS (PROHIBITION OF IMPORTATION AND KEEPING) ORDER, 1937.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM): My Lords, the Special Orders Committee under the Chairmanship of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, have reported to your Lordships' House that this Order, which is now submitted for approval, is not founded on any precedent, and the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, feels it desirable that I should explain shortly to your Lordships the purpose of the Order. The Order has been made under the Destructive Imported Animals Act, 1932. The immediate object of that

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Act was to exterminate the musk rat which was then threatening the countryside, but it also includes powers to extend its application to other destructive mammals not native to this country and not established in a wild state in Great Britain or which had become so established only in the last fifty years. The present Order intends to bring the grey squirrel within the operation of the Act so that it may be prohibited from being imported or being kept in this country.
The indictment against the grey squirrel is a serious one. I feel sure that many of your Lordships will be aware that it causes great damage to farm and horticultural crops, to woodlands and to bird life. As your Lordships no doubt know it feeds upon ripe and unripe fruits, green shoots, buds and inner bark of certain trees, upon bulbs and roots, birds' eggs and young birds. In fact, its reputation as a pest is unassailable and the damage that it causes is of certain economic importance. Propaganda measures have not checked its ravages and something further is therefore thought to be necessary. By applying the Act of 1932 to the grey squirrel, this Order will have the effect of preventing the animal from being imported from abroad and of authorising the Agricultural Departments to take such steps as they think necessary to destroy all grey squirrels at large. In England the Ministry of Agriculture may authorise the agricultural committee of a county council to exercise the powers under the Act on the Department's behalf and at the Department's expense.
But we think that the grey squirrel can best be brought under control by voluntary agencies and the Government do not intend to undertake shooting and trapping or to use the power of entry on private land which would be conferred on it if approval is given to this Order. Those powers will not be exercised unless voluntary efforts at control and extermination fail. This Order is in fact an opening step in a campaign of propaganda and publicity which it is hoped will encourage the owners of land to exterminate the grey squirrel by their own efforts. Such efforts will now have the moral backing of this legislation and, in consequence, it is hoped that landowners will be encouraged to persist in the work of extermination until success is achieved, thereby making
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it unnecessary for the Government to exercise the statutory powers which this Order will confer upon them. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on the 9th instant, be approved (The Earl of Feversham.)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I only want to say as I was Chairman of the Special Orders Committee that I think, as the noble Earl has told you, this Order wants a certain amount of explanation. It seems to me that what is to happen is that the grey squirrel is to become a musk rat, subject to all the disabilities of that pest. I was under the impression from what was told us in Committee—perhaps the noble Earl will correct me if I am wrong or say if my impression is right—that the Government would render substantial assistance to those who were willing to co-operate in destroying the pest, that they would tell them the best way of dealing with it, and would also share some of the expense which must be entailed if the animal is to be destroyed and got rid of altogether. Perhaps the noble Earl will tell me whether I am right or wrong about that.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: My Lords, I do not want to oppose this Order, but I would like to draw attention to one fact. The Government apparently obtained powers under an Act of 1932 and this year is 1937. The grey squirrel has been known as a menace for a great deal longer than five years. It seems to me rather dilatory for the Government to take action after such long delay. I quite appreciate that the Destructive Imported. Animals Act was passed under the menace of the musk rat. I had the impression that the last musk rat free in the open was killed not so very long ago. From that one gets the idea that the mind of the Ministry of Agriculture is something of the nature of a one-track mind. When the musk rat has been exterminated they take steps to exterminate the next menace. I hope that in future steps will be taken before the menace becomes so widespread as the grey squirrel is now. The grey squirrel has not yet reached my part of the world, but I think that landowners will welcome the Order and that the co-operation of the Department in the extermination of the grey squirrel will

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be extremely helpful. I would, however, like to ask the noble Earl—I am ignorant of the law—whether the word "keeping" means that if you have unwanted grey squirrels on your land you are keeping them. I do not know whether if that is so you are committing an offence and are liable to a penalty. It would relieve my mind if the noble Earl would tell me that that is not so, because none of us who are landowners wish to keep grey squirrels, although we sometimes cannot help it.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, the noble Earl has spoken of measures to be taken in England. I hope that he will be able to inform your Lordships that some similar measures will be taken in Scotland. Unfortunately, in at least one area in Fife, we have that abominable little pest with us. It is said—I do not know whether it is true—that that is due to the mistaken action of the Carnegie Trustees in letting one loose in Dunfermline to amuse the children in a public park. However that may be, a considerable area is now subject to its ravages. I should like an assurance that something will be done to minimise those ravages. I whole-heartedly commend the Order, because I do not think many people in this country will be found who are not prepared to agree that the grey squirrel is a most undesirable alien.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I do not know what is the peculiar offence that the Carnegie Trustees have committed in Dunfermline, although I happen to be one of them. At any rate, I should like the particular offence crystallised for consideration by the Trustees, and I am quite sure—always assuming that they have committed this misdemeanour—that they will take steps to remedy the effect of their action. I really rose because the noble Earl who submitted this Order to your Lordships' House appealed to landowners to do their part in supporting the Government in suppressing the activities, and indeed in destroying the lives, of grey squirrels. He went on to say that the Government themselves did not propose to take any active measures in the matter. As regards the first suggestion, although I speak with some hesitation in the presence of my noble friend Lord
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Hastings, who is Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Central Landowners' Association, I feel sure that he will allow me as a member of the Council of that Association to say that we will do all in our power in this respect, recognising as we do the very widespread damage for which the grey squirrel is responsible. But I venture to hope that the Government will do their part, too, and that where they control large areas of land where grey squirrels abound they will do their best to prevent grey squirrels spreading on to private property.
I am not in the fortunate position of the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, because I happen to have a property in the immediate neighbourhood of the Forest of Dean, and we have also suffered very seriously in recent years from the depredations of foxes. There is no hunting in the district, but we suffer from those depredations entirely owing to the view of the Government Department that the fox has some value in promoting the growth of forest trees. I have never yet discovered what it is; however, I believe that the Department have revised their policy in this respect. I should think there are few parts of the country where the grey squirrel is more rampant or more destructive than in the neighbourhood of the Forest of Dean, and therefore I venture to hope that the noble Earl will see that Government Departments, at least as much as private landowners, will do their best to destroy this pest.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, may I say a few words to reinforce what has just been said by the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe? The Government must recognise that the amount of property now in the hands of Government Departments is very large. The Forestry Commission are one of the owners of such property, and it is quite impossible for landowners to compete either with this kind of pest or with any other unless they have the co-operation of those owners or administrators of public property in the sense that the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, has mentioned. Quite truly landowners may be relied upon to co-operate with the Government, as they always have been, but their best efforts will be of no avail unless the Forestry Commission and other large public bodies can be induced to follow suit and not only to look upon

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birds and animals solely from the standpoint of the damage or good they do to property, but to adopt a larger view altogether and treat the matter from a wide national standpoint. The purpose of the noble Earl's Motion and of the Paper which he has laid upon the Table will be very largely defeated unless he can prevail upon Departments and public authorities to follow the advice which he has given, and very properly given, to landowners.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: May I ask a question on one practical point? When this Order comes into force, will local authorities be empowered by the Ministry of Agriculture to give their assistance to private landowners in exterminating the grey squirrel?
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I wish to assure the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, in answer to the question that he put to me that the Ministry of Agriculture will endeavour in the future, as they have in the past, to give every assistance possible to private landowners in the campaign for the extermination of the grey squirrel.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Does that include financial assistance?
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: No, not financial assistance.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: They told us that in Committee.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: There was a few years ago an organisation called the National Anti-Grey-Squirrel Campaign, and as a result of that campaign certain resolutions were passed at a Conference in 1931 and were sent to the Ministry of Agriculture. One was a recommendation to issue an educational pamphlet on the grey squirrel and to suggest means by which its extermination could be most suitably brought about. These resolutions have been carried into effect by the Ministry of Agriculture. An advisory pamphlet has been circulated, a broadcast talk has been arranged and county councils have been circularised on two occasions about the need for an intensive campaign against the grey squirrel within their boundaries. Therefore, my Lords, a certain amount has been done in the past few years under the auspices of the Government Department concerned, with the co-operation of the county
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councils, to organise a campaign on a national basis.
I should like to give the assurance not only to the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, but also to the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, that it certainly is the most earnest intention of the Ministry of Agriculture to see that the problem is more successfully dealt with as a result of the moral backing given by this Order, empowering the employees of the State, either through the assistance of the county council or direct from the central authority, to enter on private ground. I know from my own estate in Yorkshire, which is one of the areas most thickly populated with grey squirrels, that a constant difficulty in eliminating the pest is the fact that they come from extensive forest areas such as that which the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, has mentioned. And as soon as one kills 300 or 400 grey squirrels in any given month a similar number come the next month and take their places. I am in entire agreement that it is essential that, if the grey squirrel is to be exterminated, the campaign must be on a nation-wide basis. It is with that object in view that the Order has been placed before your Lordships' House this afternoon for approval.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: Might I ask the noble Earl whether he is speaking on behalf of the Secretary of State for Scotland as well as of the Minister of Agriculture?
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I am very glad that the noble Marquess has been so kind as to bring forward that point, which the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, has also raised. I referred first to the procedure that could be undertaken in England: the Ministry of Agriculture might authorise county councils to exterminate the grey squirrel and pay their expenses. That could not apply to Scotland, for I understand that the Department of Agriculture there is solely responsible for the elimination of the grey squirrel. It cannot be done there through the local authority, for there is no constituted agricultural committee similar to that which is in being in this country. Nevertheless, the work will be undertaken centrally in Scotland by the Department of Agriculture.

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The noble Earl, Lord Radnor, made the accusation that the Ministry of Agriculture had a one-track mind, and he referred to the fact that this Order had not been submitted to your Lordships for approval until the problem of the musk rat had been dealt with. I do not admit that the noble Earl is correct in his statement that we have a one-track mind. In the particular instance of the musk rat, we have been successful in eliminating that pest from England since the Act came into force in 1932, and 4,000 musk rats have been killed. I believe that rumours have been reported that the musk rat still exists in Scotland, but I hope that if our one-track mind can prevail as successfully in the campaign against the grey squirrel as it was able to do against the musk rat the noble Earl will, at a later date, be prepared to withdraw such a severe indictment.
The noble Viscount, Lord Mersey, asked me whether it was possible to give assistance to individual landowners in the extermination of the grey squirrel. It is not intended, unless voluntary enterprise fails of effect, to use the power of entry upon private property, and no such assistance is contemplated from State sources at present; but it is expected that with the publicity which will be given in the near future to this question, and with the increased propaganda which will be conducted both by the organisation which was instituted for this particular purpose and by the broadcast talks which may be given, it will not be necessary for State employees to have powers of entry to kill the grey squirrel.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: If I may say so the analogy which the noble Earl has drawn of the effective measures against the musk rat, where real means were taken by the local authorities, is not quite a fair one, because the propaganda against the grey squirrel is only to be a paper one. The musk rat was treated quite differently, and effectively.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The noble Viscount is quite correct. It is true that at present there is only paper propaganda; but if voluntary means are not successful, then, without further submission to your Lordships' House, this Order can be implemented, as it was in the case of the musk rat. But I do not think it would be generally acceptable to landowners throughout the country if at
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this stage, without further endeavour on the part of private enterprise, the Government were to take action immediately by right of entry in all cases.
LORD STANMORE: The noble Earl has stated that no financial assistance will be given to landowners in exterminating the grey squirrel. I was a member of the Special Orders Committee and there we distinctly understood that financial assistance would be given, and traps would be supplied.
THE EARL OF IVEAGH: I am disappointed with the statement of the noble Earl. Of course we all want to get rid of the grey squirrel immediately, but the measures described to us seem to me to be very far away. Of what use is it to kill a grey squirrel to-day, when you know that another will come over the hedge from the property of someone else to-morrow? You may spend money in killing them off on your property, but no effort is made to kill them where they are breeding in somebody else's wood, or garden, it may be. I think we had better begin as soon as we can, and that the sooner we get these animals put upon a penal basis the better. I am certainly sorry that none of these traps will be supplied to those who have not got them, or the means of assistance to destroy the nests of these animals. One's neighbours may be able to give information about the grey squirrel, but they have not the means perhaps of destroying them, and I hope we shall not be long before we get some slight financial assistance, for without some Government assistance I do not see how we are going to exterminate these animals at present.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: Perhaps when he replies the noble Earl will answer my question, whether it is an offence for an owner to have a grey squirrel upon his land.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I am sure my right honourable friend will be very pleased at the expressions of opinion which have been made in this House this afternoon, because it was felt that the action that was proposed to be taken might not meet with the unanimous approval which your Lordships have expressed in this debate. I should like to assure Lord Iveagh that, in the event of the nation-wide campaign for the extermination of the grey squirrel being unsuccessful, then it would be possible at

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some future date to make some financial provision for assistance to be given to those persons, to whom the noble Earl referred, who could not exterminate the grey squirrel with their own private resources. It is not, however, contemplated that such action should be taken until the result of the campaign which I have outlined is ascertained.
Lord Radnor asked a question as to the definition of the word "keeping." The noble Earl is quite right, inasmuch as the word "keeping" does not mean that those persons who have grey squirrels on their property will on that account be contravening the Order. The word "keeping" is directed against any person inducing a grey squirrel, whether in captivity or wild, to remain on his property. Some people keep grey squirrels as pets, and there is no incentive to trap or shoot if the squirrel next door happens to escape from the cage in which it is kept as a pet. The prohibition of "keeping" would apply to such cases as these, where the act of keeping was the result of a deliberate intention.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PHYSICAL TRAINING AND RECREATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, I think you will agree that the demand for increased opportunities for physical training and fitness, particularly amongst the younger generation, is one of the most striking phenomena of the present day. How far this is due to the scantier but more healthy clothing which is now the fashion, particularly amongst the other sex, I am not prepared to say, but I think you will agree that the clothing of the present day, especially among hikers and others, makes any physical idiosyncrasy far more obvious to ordinary persons than it was. Rather do I base the demand for physical training and fitness on the results of national education. For many years we have been improving physical training in schools, and whereas in the old days only some two hours a week were given for playground exercises and gymnastic activities, at the present time it is not uncommon in elementary schools that a period
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of physical activity should be provided for every day. That is more true, I am afraid, in our elementary schools than in our secondary schools, and it is only true to a wide extent where reorganisation has already taken place. Nevertheless, throughout the schools as a whole physical training has been very much improved as compared with old days. Since the War we have been pressing for a wider and more varied syllabus of physical training, to include an adequate daily period of exercise, organised games, wherever possible, swimming instruction, and gymnastics for older boys and girls. The result of that has been that children have left school with a desire for physical exercise. That desire has spread among the younger generation and they have now, I am glad to say, infected a great many of their elders.
Your Lordships debated the question of national physique last winter on November 10, and the noble Lord opposite, Lord Dawson of Penn, on that occasion remarked that we should distinguish between physical education and physical recreation. Well, I want both. I want the physical education given in schools compulsorily, and I want that given in such a way that it will become a hobby and a physical recreation to children when they leave school and in their later years. Of course the difficulty is, as Lord Milne said in the same debate, that "many of the people in this country who are in close contact with the young men and the young women after they leave school feel that what they have gained in school they lose once they leave school. The reason of that is that there are no facilities at all for the youth of the nation to carry out physical exercises. They are lacking in all opportunities for physical development." It is to meet that need that the Government have produced this Bill.
Before I deal with the clauses, I should like to mention a few general principles or which the Government scheme rests. The first, and perhaps the most important, is that the scheme is entirely voluntary. There were some noble Lords in the last debate who rather urged the Government to impose a compulsory scheme such as is in being in several Continental countries, but, as I think my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal pointed out in that

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debate, there are other countries in Europe which have made a great success of physical training, and which do the whole thing on a voluntary basis, such as Sweden and Czechoslovakia. I think there is no question about the advantages of the voluntary system in the mind of anybody in your Lordships' House except possibly the noble and gallant Earl, Lord Cork, who at one time had a Motion on the Paper for the rejection of this Bill. I understand that his motive for the rejection was that the Bill did not go far enough, and I think he possibly wanted a measure of compulsion, though I am not quite clear as to that. But with that possible exception I think your Lordships will agree that at any rate in this country it is essential that we should stick closely to the voluntary principle, for the simple reason that an Englishman is a fairly easy person to lead, but he is an impossible person to drive.
The second general principle is that the scheme is based on existing organisations. It is not proposed to build up an entirely new organisation to supplant and eradicate all those in existence. The reasons for that are two. In the first place there is no idea of setting up one new and uniform system. The Government feel that many parts of the country, differing so much as they do from each other, require different systems and different methods, and the town and the country also may have to be treated in different ways. Secondly, they feel that, with the number and value of the voluntary organisations already in existence in this country, it would obviously be extremely foolish not to make use of those voluntary organisations. There are, for instance, boys' and girls' clubs, which have been in existence for many years, the polytechnics, which appeal to my noble friend the Lord Chancellor in both a personal and an hereditary aspect, the Y.M.C.A.s and the Y.W.C.A.s, Scouts, Guides, and many other organisations. The object of the scheme is to mobilise voluntary effort and to join it with the extremely valuable work which is already being done throughout the country by local authorities. Now the tradition of the best voluntary organisations is not that the training should be purely physical. They have also aimed at training minds, and their objective has been a healthy mind in a healthy body. That fits in with
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the aim which has been constantly before the Board of Education for many years, that a child should be made fit mentally, physically and socially for the life which lies in front of it.
The third principle which I should like to emphasise is that the scheme is in no sense military. It has been represented in various quarters that because this scheme came in at the same time as the Government rearmament scheme therefore they were linked together and this was a method of obtaining recruits for the Army and the other two Services and getting them physically fit to pass the doctor and to pass into the Services. In fact, I have seen it stated in some organs of the Press that the sole reason why I was appointed to the Board of Education was that I happened to have served some time in the Army, and therefore I was put in to militarise the whole physical education of the country. I admit that it is hard sometimes to see ourselves as others see us, but I have never been able yet to visualise myself as a very rubicund Colonel Blimp giving physical training to, I suppose, a squad of elderly spinsters and maiden aunts. Although there is no mention of a drill hall in the Bill, there is a mention of gymnasia, and that has caused one member of your Lordships' House who is so intimately acquainted with youth organisations, Lord Baden Powell, to say that he thinks there is too much emphasis on the gymnasium and gymnastic training, and not enough on outdoor exercise. If your Lordships examine Clause 3 of the Bill or the White Paper you will see that there is just as much insistence on playing fields, holiday camps and camping sites as there is on gymnasia.
We have to remember that in this country, being so largely urbanised as it is, it is very difficult to provide open spaces where games can readily be played, and it is difficult for those who work in great cities such as this to find the time to get away when their work is over to play games except at the week-ends. Therefore very often a good deal of their physical training has to be done in gymnasia. Particularly is that true during the winter months. There is, of course, a further reason why we should rather emphasise gymnasia. In foreign countries they have always started with gymnasia and gymnastic clubs, and it is only comparatively recently that they have taken to games

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and outdoor sports. We in this country have started at the opposite end. We have started with games and sports, and it is only recently that we have realised the value of gymnastic training. We have begun to discover, possibly as the result of our not getting as many successes as we had hoped in the Olympic Games and other contests, that gymnastic training and outdoor exercise necessarily go together to get the perfect athlete. I think now there is no question that any professional footballer would at once say he would have very little chance in a Football Cup tie if he had not gone into strict physical training as well.
Of course, it is possible to become very fit by gymnastic training alone or even by home training. I think probably a good many of your Lordships do a certain amount of physical exercise in the morning. I do on a rowing machine, but I am bound to admit, and I think every one of your Lordships will admit, that it is extremely dull, and we shall never make a real success of a national system which confines itself solely to gymnastic training and physical jerks. Therefore we want to make it the more attractive by joining it up with outdoor sports and outdoor games, which by themselves do not make a man completely and absolutely as fit as he could be made, but which, joined with the gymnastic training, make an attractive hobby and recreation for people and, we believe, will be of real value to the health of the country. I hope I shall not be criticised for putting forward the views of a "wet bob" when I say I agree entirely with the remark in a recent article in The Times that "the ball, while it is in Britain the physical educationist's best servant, is surely his worst master."
If I may turn very briefly to the Bill itself, Clauses 1 and 2 give statutory recognition to the National Advisory Council and to the Grants Committee and provide for the establishment of local committees. There are two National Advisory Councils, one for England and Wales and one for Scotland. That for England and Wales consists of thirty-one members under the Chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Aberdare, and your Lordships will agree that my predecessor was extremely fortunate in having got such a Chairman to preside over this Council. I do not know how many times
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my noble friend has been champion of tennis and rackets, but if the whole youth and adolescence of this country try to follow his example in sport and games we shall certainly not go far wrong. In Scotland the Chairman is Sir Iain Colquhoun, also a person extremely well known in the North and one who should attract a great following in the propaganda and enthusiasm which we hope to arouse in that part of the country. The Grants Committee in England is presided over by Sir Henry Pelham and in Scotland by Mr. D. A. Anderson. Both the National Advisory Councils and the Grants Committees were set up on March 1. They have been working very hard since and have made considerable progress in planning the arrangements which will be necessary as soon as this Bill passes into law.
Arrangements have been made for setting up regional committees, of which there will be twenty-two in England and Wales and five in Scotland. In both countries it is almost certain that the regional committees will require a number of sub-committees to go over the area and comb it properly, because their duties are very wide. They have to review the facilities in their areas, they have to organise public interest, and they have to examine applications for grants. What normally will happen is that the locality will put up an application for a grant, possibly for a playing field or a swimming bath or a social club. That application is examined by the local committee, who pass it on with their recommendation for or against, and how far other claims are perhaps greater, to the Grants Committee. It is considered by the Grants Committee, and then it comes up before the Board of Education who make the grant or otherwise according to the advice which is given to them by the Grants Committee.
Clause 3 empowers the Board of Education, on the recommendation of the Grants Committee, to pay these grants for new and enlarged facilities for physical training and recreation. The local authority is joined in with the voluntary organisations in each area. The whole scheme is based on a very close co-operation between the local authority and the voluntary organisations, so that they may work together and that there may be no overlapping at all Grants are made for capital expenditure only, because we feel that if there is

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any real desire for new opportunities for physical training there should be sufficient enthusiasm in the district to be able to raise sufficient money and effort to maintain the facility once it has been granted; but in exceptional cases where there is any difficulty, because the area may be hard hit financially, or may have a great deal of unemployment, then it is possible that a grant may be made for maintenance also.
The Board of Education has power to make grants for other purposes—firstly, for the training and supply of teachers and leaders for this movement. Your Lordships will, of course, agree that the whole success of the movement depends, as it does in so many other organisations such as the Boy Scouts and the Girl Guides, on our getting efficient leaders and instructors. I shall have something to say presently of the National College which it is proposed to set up, but for the time being, until such College comes into existence, we propose to make full use of the experience and organisation of the Central Council of Recreative Physical Training. We also hope that the local authorities, and particularly the local education authorities, will co-operate fully in supplying teachers, of whom already a number are trained to enable physical training to be given not only in their own institutions, schools and so on, but also in those provided by voluntary associations as well. The Board of Education may also make grants towards the funds of national organisations for particular purposes. We visualise that some of these national organisations may require organisers locally, and therefore we propose to take powers, if your Lordships approve of this Bill, to meet part or the whole of the cost of the salaries of such organisers where we feel that to be necessary. Clauses 4 and 5 extend and simplify the powers of local authorities.
It is natural that in the notice taken in the Press and elsewhere of the White Paper published earlier in the year, and in the discussion that has taken place in another place, a good deal of emphasis has been laid on the work of voluntary organisations. But that does not mean that the Government do not value very highly indeed the work which has been done for a number of years by the local authorities. Indeed this scheme cannot realty succeed unless the local authorities throw themselves into it heart and soul.
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Both from their statutory position and from their funds, and in many cases from their own experience, the help they can give to this scheme is of incalculable value.
In Clause 7 power is taken to set up one or more National Colleges, and the Board is empowered to provide, to maintain, and to aid them as it thinks fit. The object of the National College is to train and equip an adequate supply of teachers, carry on research work, arrange demonstrations, and also, if necessary, to help in training instructors for school work. The scheme as regards the National College has not yet been thoroughly worked out, but it is almost certain that at least one College will have to be set up in the very near future.
Clause 10 applies the Bill to Scotland. The remaining clauses to which I have not referred are mostly to bring in the financial provisions of the Bill and so on, and I need not go into them at this stage. Your Lordships may wish to know the estimated cost of this proposal. It is difficult to make a close estimate, but it is proposed that £2,000,000 sterling should be spent on capital expenditure over a period of three years, while the cost of maintenance will be about £150,000 a year. That is apart from the cost in Scotland.
His Majesty's Government believe that this Bill fills a very widely felt want. The knowledge of the value of physical training and physical culture is growing very rapidly throughout the country, and people really need greater facilities than they have at present. On the other hand, we realise that even now that knowledge is nothing like so widespread as it should be. There is still a very large number of people, including, I am afraid, those who sometimes are responsible for the better known public schools of the country, who have not yet realised the value of physical training. Some schools are renowned for producing boys who, perhaps because of their practice of walking about with their hands in their pockets as the school custom is, have round shoulders for the rest of their lives; and that does not apply to the elementary schools but to some of the best known public schools of the country. Therefore we feel that, even though in many cases the value of this training is appreciated, a good deal has yet to be done to make it more widely

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known, and even where it is widely known to let people understand what we think is the best method of providing physical fitness and where facilities exist in their own areas to obtain it. Therefore power is taken under subsection (3) of Clause 3 for the Board of Education, in consultation with the National Advisory Council and on the recommendation of the Grants Committee, to spend money on publicity and propaganda.
We shall not achieve even with these methods any real success in this scheme unless we can bring it down to the individual by personal interview and by personal influence. That is where I should like to appeal to members of your Lordships' House, and particularly, if I may, to those who at times appear here but unfortunately are not present here to-day. I have been a member of this House many years and remember when the attendance was very much greater. It has been reduced, I think, mainly for two reasons. One is that many of your Lordships find it impossible to maintain a house in London and one in the country in these days when taxation is very heavy, and the other is that, unfortunately, our debates are perhaps more one-sided than they have been in previous years, so that many noble Lords feel they can exercise more influence for good by remaining in their country districts and taking part in local government than they can by attending your Lordships' House. That means that their influence in their own districts is very material indeed. I hope that many noble Lords who read this debate may feel that here they have a real opportunity of using that influence to the full by making this scheme known throughout their own areas, by making it known in the small towns, in the villages and even in the cottages, by seeing that every individual is made to realise how much benefit can be achieved by doing more physical training and more physical fitness exercises than he has ever done before, and insisting that his children also shall follow on the same lines.
It is only so, I think, that we shall obtain that increase in happiness which so many of us realise depends primarily on good health, and that we shall be enabled to improve the country in the region of health, fitness and happiness. Therefore, believing that this Bill does afford very much greater opportunities
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than have ever been provided for the public in the past, I have every confidence in asking your Lordships to give it a very favourable passage through this House and not less support than it received in another place. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Stanhope.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friends have authorised me to offer no opposition to this Bill; in fact to welcome it, and I do so with very great pleasure. And also, with very great pleasure, may I congratulate the noble Earl not only on his presentation of the Bill but upon his assumption of the high office of Minister of Education? When this movement for physical culture started I had the impression that the Ministry of Health were going to be responsible, but I gather now that it is to be the responsibility of the Board of Education. That being the case, and knowing the noble Earl as we do, I think your Lordships will agree with me when I say that we could not have—with the necessity of having this Government in office at all—a better representative at the Ministry of Education than the noble Earl.
May I also very humbly support what he said in his tribute to my noble friend Lord Aberdare, and venture to agree with him in the good fortune that the nation and the Administration have had in securing his services as Chairman of the Advisory Council? He is himself a very good example of what happens to a man who keeps himself fit and keeps up his sports and recreations. I have felt for a very long time, and I have voiced it in public, that we ought to have a separate Ministry in this country for the whole range of sport and physical culture and everything in connection with that side of human activities. I believe it is of tremendous importance nowadays. With more and more people living in great cities, something of that kind is absolutely necessary. Sport is also of tremendous importance in present-day civilisation. I used to advocate that we should have a separate Under-Secretary of State for sport and physical culture. Well, I am not sure that this system may not be better if the President of the Board of Education can really take the matter under his wing and push it forward and help it.

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I have two observations of a slightly critical nature to make, but not in connection with what is in the Bill. I have to take the opportunity of drawing attention to two other factors closely connected with the subject we are now discussing. The first is this. There is a welcome and splendid movement in the country, which the noble Earl I am sure would wish to encourage in every way, for people to get more and more out into the open country. Hiking, scouting, rock-climbing and mountaineering are all very splendid, and the people indulging in them have found that they are wonderful things, yet too much of the wilder part of this country is shut off from the general public. Bills have been introduced into both Houses of Parliament again and again to give access to the uncultivated parts of the country—the moorlands, mountains and so on—and they have always been rejected. I really think it is time the Government took the matter in hand. I will take only one example, the Pennines, which are almost a gift of the Almighty to the industrial regions of Northern England. A great part of the Pennines is forbidden to the people in the crowded cities and coalfields round about them.
A second observation I have to make on behalf of my Party, and this was discussed at a meeting of our Party Executive. It is that we can spend money upon, and organise, encourage and stimulate, physical culture, physical exercises and recreation as much as we like, but that if we have a large section of the people under-nourished or suffering from malnutrition, all that will be wasted. If I may put it colloquially, we say that wholesome and sufficient food is more important for a large section of poor people to-day than physical jerks. At the present time there is a large section of the population who definitely do not get sufficient food of the right quality to keep them in proper health. That, we say, is a scandal and a disgrace, because we have all the means of producing all the foodstuffs required in overwhelming abundance. It is a fatal flaw in the present economic and capitalist system, and it is because we recognise this flaw that we exist as a separate Party to try to remove it. I have to make that protest at the unnecessary malnutrition that is suffered by many people of this country; and, of course, the most disgraceful case of all is that of the young children. I
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admit that the Government have done a good deal in making milk more freely available, but they ought to do a great deal more.
I am now going to deal with a matter which the noble Earl very cleverly evaded, and that is the importance of physical fitness in national defence. We recognise that on this side. We are not afraid of saying that part of our national defence must be a strong, virile population. If you want an Army, you may as well see that the recruits are strong and healthy. The fact that the noble Earl had a distinguished military career does not prejudice him in my eyes as Minister of Education. From that point of view alone I should have thought that he present Government, which is spending £2,000,000,000 on armaments—which we do not challenge as a policy—ought at least to see that young people have enough to eat so that they may be strong enough to bear arms, which is not the case at present in very large areas of the country.
I have had to make those two very critical observations on the Bill, and now I am going to make a constructive suggestion which I hope will interest the noble Earl. There is a very welcome growth in this country of what are called holiday camps. The noble Earl may have noticed them when moving about the country in seaside districts and other places. They are well fitted hutment camps, at which families and parties of friends can rent accommodation very reasonably, and they have all kinds of sporting facilities. There could be many more of them, and I think they would be worth subsidising, if they were in certain chosen areas, for this purpose. If you had more of these camps in certain suitable places, they would be very valuable in case of war, as mobilisation centres for the Territorial Army and other units. I think it would be worth while subsidising certain of these camps in conjunction with the War Office. I can make this suggestion because the noble Earl is a little diffident, but I am not afraid, of being accused of militarism. I think it is worth serious consideration. I hope that the whole scheme in the Bill will be most successful, and that the noble Earl and Lord Aberdare and others who will do the spade-work will be able to achieve a great step forward for the health and happiness of the people.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I warmly welcome this Bill, and there are two observations I should like to make in doing so. In the first place I am inclined to think that familiarity, besides breeding contempt, breeds complacency with existing conditions. I make that observation after five years' residence at the other end of the Empire, in New Zealand. Upon coming back here I discovered two factors which I am bound to say caused me a considerable shock. One of them—I have referred to it before in your Lordships' House—was the relative neglect of our land, and the other was the relative neglect of national physique in this old country of ours. I cannot help thinking that any one who goes with his eyes open to other parts of the world will discover that our national physique is not improving pari passu with that of several other countries, some of them fortunately comprised in the British Empire, but some of which, in days to come, may be potential enemies.
The other reason why I welcome the Bill—and I say it as President of the National Council of Social Service—is that it definitely combines Government action with voluntary organisation. I have had the opportunity, during the last two years, of seeing some quite admirable work in every sphere of social activity, including physical training and welfare in different parts of this country, and notably in what are known as the Special or Distressed Areas. I really cannot speak with sufficient admiration of the selfless work that is being conducted by numerous voluntary organisations, particularly in those unhappy areas, for the social advancement and physical development of those who are out of work or are dependants of unemployed persons, notably those connected with what are called occupational centres.
I notice that the noble Earl, in introducing this Bill, referred to the local authorities and the powers that they will have in future to obtain from the Government, I think through the Board of Education, certain grants for the purposes of this Bill. But he did not, I think, refer specifically to the local voluntary organisations which, for this purpose, are linked with the local authorities. May I say how very glad I am to find that there
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is that link, and that there is special provision made in Clause 3 (1) (c) for grants being made to any national voluntary organisation having such objects as are stated in the Bill. I am perfectly conscious that one of the organisations must be that over which I have the honour to preside—namely, the National Council of Social Service. Therefore I want to express my special gratification at what I am sure will be the immense stimulus to the work which is rapidly developing with important ramifications of social value all over the country, but which has insufficient means to respond to the appeals constantly made by voluntary organisations carrying on unselfish work to the limit of their own financial resources.
There is one little matter to which perhaps I may be allowed to refer, and that is the tendency of some local authorities under the provisions of such a Bill as this to develop what I may call a somewhat one-sided programme of social, physical or health improvement to the displacement of other activities which are not less worthy of encouragement. I want to refer in this connection very specially to cottage gardens and allotments which are growing up in many arias, and which are of immense value to the older men in industrial districts who find themselves out of employment. In every area near an industrial town there is no doubt whatever that you have a large and important measure of health, and incidentally a greater adaptability, developing amongst those who have allotments and cottage gardens generously and amply provided with the help of the local authorities. In all the areas where there is serious unemployment, which it has been my experience to visit—I visited one only a fortnight ago in the colliery area of Nottinghamshire—where there are allotments provided, there is an element of hope. Not only is there an element of hope, but what we call the hard core of unemployment is not so obviously distressing. The men of forty-five years and upwards who have their allotments have some interest in life, and are not obsessed with the unfortunate idea that no employment can possibly await them in the future, and that therefore they are of no value as units in a self-respecting community. The fact that these men have the opportunity given them to bring some-

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thing into the home maintains, not only an element of hope, but what I believe a Britisher regards as of more value than anything else, self respect.
I see in some parts of this country, particularly in the neighbourhood of our towns, not only public gardens but gymnasia, and, if I may be allowed to mention them, aerodromes being provided to the displacement of allotment gardens. I cannot persuade myself that that is taking a long view in the best interests of the country. I want to utter the hope that when the provisions of Clause 3 of this Bill, operating under the Board of Education, come to be carried out by the local authority, some sympathy will be shown to the allotment holders rather than that, for these new purposes of physical welfare, they should be displaced from their helpful and, as I believe, nationally useful activities.
I do not want to say anything more except that, knowing something of the activities of my noble friend Lord Aberdare and of Sir Iain Colquhoun, I most warmly welcome their appointment as Chairmen of the Advisory Councils for England and Scotland respectively. I am perfectly sure that under their Chairmanship the movement will not only proceed as the Government desire, but also proceed with new sympathy for those voluntary organisations which are doing their best to help in this desirable movement. May I add one word, and refer to the appointment of Captain Lionel Ellis as the organising secretary of the Advisory Council for England and Wales? Those who have known anything about the work of the National Council of Social Service for the last nineteen years must realise its enormous value and, in addition, the far-seeing vision and energy which Captain Lionel Ellis has thrown into his work as its secretary. If he does anything like as good work for the new Advisory Council as he has done for the National Council of Social Service, I am perfectly sure that the work will be carried on with great success and with great advantage to this country.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, my new headmaster, the President of the Board of Education, has moved the Second Reading of the Bill with the lucidity and thoroughness which one would expect of him and has left me very little of substance to add. However, I
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think it is entirely wrong, when there is a good Bill before this House, that a little more should not be made of it and a little more verbal support given to it. I hope, therefore, that I shall not weary your Lordships if I cover a certain amount of the same ground in the few words which I have to say. I should like to support this Bill, not only from the position which has surprisingly come my way—and here perhaps I may thank the three noble Lords who have been good enough to say those very kind words about me—but also because I have myself gained so much value, especially before and during the War, from physical training, and have derived so much enjoyment from cricket and other games. Naturally I would wish that everyone in this country could get an equal opportunity. Especially would I wish that everyone could feel what it is like to be really fit.
The ideal behind this campaign is an ideal of personal fitness: fitness for the greater enjoyment of life. We should fight hard to remove the reproach that we are a C3 nation. And we should aim at making everybody fit and therefore happy. I have no doubt that efficiency at work and zest for the pleasures of life can be enormously increased by being in good physical condition. I agree the whole structure of this Bill, and the only fault I can find with it is that it did not come earlier. The Greeks, two thousand years ago, knew that the only educated man was the man who was fit in body as well as in mind. It is curious that we remember that fact by the Latin tag "Mens sana in corpore sano". Perhaps my headmaster can give me the Greek equivalent! The best Greek thinkers did not, however, believe in the athlete or the champion as the ideal for everyone. Plato said that "the athlete was on the slippery slope which led to degeneration." The Greeks' great merit was that they practised what they preached and acted on the knowledge that the fit man was the happy man.
I believe that the result of this Bill will be bigger than any one anticipated who was instrumental in its original introduction to our democratic life. I foresee a great strengthening of the moral fibre and character of the citzens of our country; this, among other things, should go a long way to reduce the number of inmates of the prisons and asylums. I foresee better health, which will mean the need

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of less medicine and drugs and should go far to relieve the pressure on our hospitals. I foresee better mental balance and alertness of mind, which should have very far-reaching effects, even so far perhaps as to reduce the number of deaths on our roads.
There is little left for me to say in amplification of what the President of the Board of Education has said about the technical effect of this Bill, but perhaps I may be allowed to reply to some of the criticisms which have been made of its purpose and otherwise. The first is of militarism. I am sure there is no truth in the charge that the Bill has a military motive, and I am glad to say that no responsible leader of public opinion has ever said so. The scheme seems to me to be the natural result of the demand of the children after leaving school because of their appreciation and understanding of the benefits of being physically fit. The aim is to inculcate a new way of life and a new attitude of mind. I need only stress what the President has already said: that the scheme is completely voluntary and that there is no regimentation. Compulsion or uniformity would be entirely alien to the national traditions and, I am sure, would be very much resented throughout the country.
Secondly, may I refer to gymnasia? A noble Lord for whom I have the very highest respect and who has been doing and, I am glad to say, continues to do such excellent work for youth, is reported to have said that gymnasia are unnecessary. I wish it were so, for I should like to see all exercise taken in the fresh air. What with our climate, however, the fact that darkness draws in early during over half the year and that the majority of our people are at work during the day light and live in large cities and towns where there are few playing fields within very close reach, gymnasia are generally a necessity. It is not the intention of the Council to set up gymnasia in pepper-pot fashion up and down the country. The Council are equally concerned with providing for swimming, walking, cycling and all forms of sport and exercise. They do not want to make everyone do physical jerks, though I should be glad personally to hear that everyone was doing his daily dozen. There are many people who do not realise
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that modern exercise in a gymnasium is a pleasant and enjoyable thing. Such exercises give poise, balance, and the sense of rhythm, and really help sportsmen and athletes to do better at their activities. Boys like advanced gymnastics because of the chance to show off their strength and skill. "Gyms." can also serve other purposes—they can be the meeting place for boxing, fencing and other clubs, and also the sites for badminton, net-ball and other games.
Thirdly, may I say a word on nutrition? It has been stated that a vast number of children are under-nourished, and not fit for any physical training. The quotation which I noted was that "Anæmic children look distressed after doing physical training." I know that the Government have been, and are, taking steps to improve nutrition, which means better housing, better working conditions, etc., as well as supplying extra food in certain cases. This country is one of the best fed in the world. No school child, I am sure, need be underfed. I believe that ample powers and machinery exist for feeding children who need it. The machinery should be used, and the responsibility lies largely with the teacher, who has emergency powers to put a child on the feeding or milk list until a doctor can be seen. I am sure that no one would purposely put children through a course of physical training which was too much for them. I think that this subject has been overstressed and does not really arise under this Bill. May I state, however, that recent routine examination in London schools showed that of 184,733 children examined—these were unselected children—only 122 were found to be seriously ill-nourished, that is one in 1,500. Recently I was told by a reliable social service worker that he saw no sign of under-nourishment in Battersea.
Fourthly, may I say a word about overworked pitboys? It was stated in another place that boys working in mines, who had to get up at 4.30 a.m., would not be fit at any time to take advantage of this Bill. Some people may find difficulty in taxing exercise owing to working hours, but even those who engage in heavy manual work are made more brisk and are refreshed by physical exercise. Novelty and variety are probably the reason, but there is also the fact that different muscles are being brought into play, thus relieving the strain.

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There is a wealth of testimony to this effect. Major Gamier, who for some thirteen years has so well and successfully been training teachers and leaders at the Lucas Tooth Gymnasium in the East End of London, speaking on the wireless the other clay, gave an example. A bricklayer's labourer, who felt tired after carrying bricks up his ladder, was refreshed after half an hour in a "gym". I think there is no doubt that a boy or man who takes regular exercise of a scientific type can do manual work with less weariness. It is the difference between being in training and out of training. Fifthly, and lastly, surprise was expressed that the B.B.C. did not provide early morning broadcasts. Discussions took place with the B.B.C. sometime ago, but certain technical difficulties were standing in the way. I am hopeful, however, that they will be making an announcement shortly, although possibly only of an experiment.
Now may I say one word about the National College? There must be an adequate supply of teachers, leaders and organisers. It is necessary to see that facilities throughout the country are properly used, and to keep people enthusiastic. The National College, to my mind, is a vital necessity, and not only for this purpose but for carrying out the very necessary medical research. I am not intending to say anything further upon the question of medical research, seeing that Lord Dawson is here and may be inclined to speak on the subject. Certainly no one can be more qualified to do so, I feel the College is perhaps the mainspring of the whole movement.
The Council must arouse a personal ambition in everyone to be fit and healthy. For this purpose they will need to use all the resources of modern publicity, such as posters, booklets and films. They must keep physical training plus recreation steadily before the people, and encourage them to use their leisure hours wisely. They hope to see the people of the nation fit and happy, so that they may enjoy their life to the full. They do not aim at getting champions, but wish everyone to reach a reasonable standard of proficiency in whatever line of activity they care to take up. My Lords, if this new machine does its work then it is only left to the individual to do his bit. I trust that we shall find that a very large number of our people over school age will join in, and
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if they do I think that one day it will be recognised that the day on which this Bill became law was a milestone and a turning point in the history of the progress of this country.
VISCOUNT DAWSON OF PENN: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Aberdare that this Bill is of vast importance, because it does give method and structure to a policy which will aim at the promotion of the fitness of the nation. It is necessary not only in the interest of the present generation but of future generations, that they should be given the best opportunity to turn those great potentialities which are particularly notable in the British race into actualities. We have only to go back to the time of the War to visualise what powers are in our blood. At Aldershot, at the beginning of the War, there were sent down a number of lads who, you would have thought at the time, could never be converted into anything approaching a soldier. At the end of six weeks they already showed an alteration; at the end of six months they were unrecognisable. And my belief is that if the youth of this nation get the opportunity of a training in fitness they will create a surprise by the rapid way in which they will respond, for they have a certain elasticity, not only of body but of mind, which makes them respond very easily to advantages in the way of physical education.
I said I would urge that not only is this an important matter to the present generation but a higher standard of physical fitness is necessary for the preservation of the nation in future generations, and I will try quite briefly to put that forward. We have to remember that in securing a fit race in days gone by nature did a large part of the work. She killed off the unfit, and only the fit survived. But we are gradually undoing nature's efforts by our developed sense of greater humanity and a more acute conscience towards those who are in distress and those who are weak. But if we are to continue that policy of looking after the weaker brethren—and I cannot conceive anybody doubting that that is a right policy—we must remember that we are at the same time undoing nature's plan for discarding the weaklings of the race. It therefore becomes doubly important for us to set up a policy which will create fitness. If we create fitness and

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give the proper opportunities it is inevitable that the more fit and efficient will come to the fore. Consequently the more fit and efficient will lead the nation, and the fit boys will ultimately marry the fit girls, and you will raise the eugenic standard of the race. It must be borne in mind that the young are all hero worshippers and they will follow the leaders of their own generation. If therefore you give opportunity to those who are most fit to move forward, as they inevitably will, in the company of their generation, they will set the pace of conduct and the standard of fitness for those who will come after them.
May I make one reference to the National College? I agree with my noble friend Lord Aberdare that that from one point of view is the pivot of this scheme. If we have a suitable college—and I hope it will be within reach of London—and if that college is erected in suitable and large enough grounds, we shall be able to have a community of students where they will learn the technique of their business, where men who are going to take up physical education as a whole-time job will be trained, and, in addition to those, where organisers and leaders for the voluntary organisations can receive a training of lesser duration and less strenuousness. And I hope there will be one more class regarded. I hope that we shall be able to choose the best of the boys who are passing into adolescence and give them at this college a special six-months training. Thus we may test out those who we think are potentially fit, and be able to give those who do turn out to be fit the opportunity of becoming the leaders of their generation in the walks of life which they individually pursue.
One word on the subject of nutrition. Is not the difference between my noble friends Lord Aberdare and Lord Strabolgi this, that the distribution in this country of what is called malnutrition—or what is, I think, very often more accurately called under-nutrition—is patchy? If one goes to the London elementary schools, one is very much impressed with the great change in the children. They are for the most part well nourished, even in the poorest districts. They are well dressed. They are a different generation from the
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children we used to see years ago. On the other hand, if you go to the distressed areas where unemployment is rampant, I agree that there are places where under-nourishment may be found, and in some places one cannot get away from it. It is quite obvious. In connection with under-nutrition I think we are apt to lose sight of the fact that so many of the people of this country who are the heads of households have never been taught how to choose food. They do not know how to spend their weekly earnings to good advantage. Any one who has had opportunities of going into the homes of those who are less well off than oneself will be struck by the fact that they do not know how to choose food—food that is well within the reach of their earnings.
Further than that, so few of them know how to cook it. If you compare this country with certain countries on the Continent, the difference is manifest. If you go into the homes here you may see children sitting round a table and, instead of wholesome fond which has been cooked for their consumption, you see tinned fish, tinned vegetables and many other things which avoid the trouble of cooking. It is not only because the parents are unwilling to cook—in many instances they have never been taught how to cook. The result is that the homes of those of the in industrial classes do show more than one could wish an under-nourishment which is partly due to their want of education in this particular. It is not due to any carelessness or to want of love for their children, because there is nothing more striking than the devotion to the children to be found in most homes in all classes in this country: it is due to want of knowledge. And I believe that one of the best investments that the Government could make would be to provide travelling vans to go about the country and stop here, there and everywhere to give lessons and lectures on the choice and cooking of food. I believe that people are ready to receive such instruction, because they are beginning to understand that the choosing and cooking of food are no small matters in securing the proper nourishment of our younger people. I have nothing but praise for this Bill. I agree with my noble friend opposite that it gives an opportunity for opening up a new era. By the means provided in this Bill we have a prospect of giving this race the

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opportunities which it needs to bring itself to the forefront in physical fitness and happiness.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I rise only to thank your Lordships who have taken part in the debate for the kind way in which the Bill has been received. I think the main point raised by the noble Lord opposite, Lord Strabolgi—the question of nutrition—has been very adequately dealt with by the noble Viscount, Lord Dawson of Penn. I find myself in entire agreement with everything that Lord Dawson has said. I have not been very long in my present office, but I have already been making inquiries in the direction in which spoke, and my own view is that it is largely a question of education much more than a question of lack of money. A great deal can be done in that direction I am sure.
May I remind the noble Lord opposite of this, too? Many people are inclined to quote the very high physical development in Germany, and yet the younger Germans were those born either during or just after the War, when the question of nutrition in Germany was of course one of great difficulty and when practically no children, whatever their class or whatever their wealth, had much chance of getting adequate food. Similarly in regard to Czechoslovakia. Those of your Lordships who know something of the conditions in Czechoslovakia will say that anything of that kind was quite out of the question here; even amongst the unemployed the standard of life of our people here is so much higher than it is there. Yet in Czechoslovakia, by voluntary methods, the improvement in physique of all classes, and particularly working class, has been very remarkable. It has been due not to better nutrition so much as to physical training and physical
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development given by the sort of methods that we propose under this Bill.
My noble friend on the Cross Benches, Lord Bledisloe, did not, I think, quite understand what I endeavoured to say to your Lordships, which was that the Grants Committee will make grants to voluntary associations every bit as much as to local authorities—in fact, in some ways, more so because local authorities already receive grants from the Government direct for many of these services such as swimming baths in urban areas and so on. The proposal is that we shall not as a rule give a grant to the voluntary association itself, but that we shall only give a grant for a specific object—the building of a gymnasium or the making of a swimming bath. That will no doubt be recommended by my noble friend's association or some similar body, but the grant will not be paid as a rule to his headquarters. It would be the recommendation of the local committee that such and such a thing is required at such and such a spot, and a grant will be made towards the provision of this facility. In conclusion, I can only again thank your Lordships for the support you have given to the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn until half-past three o'clock to-morrow.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at a quarter before seven o'clock.

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (Fowey),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Tonbridge Water).

And also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (Culag (Lochinver)),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Maidenhead Water),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Sevenoaks Water).

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
WATFORD CORPORATION BILL.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
WADEBRIDGE RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
TORQUAY CORPORATION BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Carnock be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Marks, and that the Lord Carnock be Chairman of the said Committee: Read, and agreed to.

LANCASHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
  GOSPORT WATER BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments.

BRIGG GAS ORDER, 1937.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Brigg Urban District Council:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

ORMSKIRK DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1937.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Ormskirk District Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

HEMSWORTH GRIMETHORPE AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1937.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Hemsworth Grimethorpe and District Gas Company, Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
LLANDUDNO GAS ORDER, 1937.
MARLBOROUGH GAS ORDER, 1937.
WINSFORD GAS ORDER, 1937.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the able.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (BRIDLINGTON) BILL. [H.L.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (GUILDFORD) BILL. [H.L.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (RHYMNEY VALLEY SEWERAGE DISTRICT AND WESTERN VALLEYS (MONMOUTHSHIRE) SEWERAGE DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SELBY) BILL. [H.L.]
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (TYNEMOUTH) BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SOUTH EAST ESSEX JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
CLEETHORPES CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
WALSALL CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.