Sitting of 27 July 1937

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
SPINSTERS' PENSIONS.
Mr. Guy: I ask leave to present a Petition to the House concerning spinsters' pensions which has been organised jointly by the National Spinsters' Pensions Association and the Scottish Women's Pensions League following on a deputation to the Minister of Health last month. The grievance set forth in the Petition is that grave hardship and injustice are caused by the fact that the contributory old age pension is not payable in the ease of single women until they attain the age of 65, at which age the great majority of them are out of insurance and are, therefore, unable to qualify for pension. The Petition has been freely signed by men and women, married and single, up and down both countries, and no fewer than 1,000,000 signatures have been obtained in a month. This is clear and definite evidence of the widespread and spontaneous support for the spinsters' cause. Wherefore your petitioners humbly pray that your Honourable House will be pleased to lower the qualifying age for contributory pensions for spinsters from 65 to 55; and your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills.
Ordered, That Standing Order 265, relating to Private Bills, be suspended until the Summer Adjournment.
Ordered, That, as regards Private Bills to be returned by the House of Lords with Amendments, such Amendments (if Unopposed) shall be considered on the day following the day on which the Bill shall have been returned from the House of Lords.
Ordered, That, as regards Private Bills returned, or to be returned, by the
2822
House of Lords with Amendments, such Amendments (if Opposed) shall be considered at such time as the Chairman of Ways and Means may determine.
Ordered, That, when it is intended to propose any Amendments thereto, a copy of such Amendments shall be deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office, and notice given on the day on which the Bill shall have been returned from the House of Lords.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Regents Canal and Dock Company (Grand Junction Canal Purchase) Act, 1928.
Ordered, That the Resolution of the House of the 12th day of July, 1932, relative to the Regents Canal and Dock Company (Grand Junction Canal Purchase) Act, 1928, be read as followeth:
That, notwithstanding the promise given in the proceedings before the Committee to which the Regents Canal and Dock Company (Grand Junction Canal Purchase) Bill was referred in the year 1928, to the effect that the promoters of the Bill would within five years of the date of the Bill becoming law promote a Bill to consolidate the Act relating to the several parts of their undertaking, it shall not be incumbent on the Grand Union Canal Company to promote such a Bill before the expiration of ten years from that date, in view of the fact that since the year 1928 the company have acquired the undertakings of other canal companies, and of the possibility that the undertakings of further canal companies will in the future be acquired by the company.—[The Chairman of Ways and and Means.]
Resolved, That it shall not be incumbent on the Grand Union Canal Company to promote a Bill to consolidate the Acts relating to the several parts of their undertaking before the Session of 1944, provided that not later than the Session of 1941 they promote an amending Bill with a view to facilitating the task of consolidation.—[The Chairman of Ways Means.]
Standing Orders (Private Business),
Resolved, That the Amendments to Standing Orders relating to Private Business as set out in the Schedule attached hereto be approved by the House:—

SCHEDULE.
After Standing Order 41, page 117, insert new Standing Order 41a:—
Delivery of copies of Bills to Catchment Boards.
In the case of a Bill which proposes to authorise any persons to impound or abstract water, or to discharge water into any watercourse, within the catchment area of any Catchment Board, or to construct works over, or under, or affecting any such watercourse or the banks thereof, a printed copy of the Bill shall on or before the fourth day of December be delivered at or sent by registered post to the office of the board.
Standing Order 117, page 168, line 5. after the second "any," insert "opposed."
After Standing Order 140, page 176, insert new Standing Order 140a:
Locus standi of land drainage authorities.
Where any drainage authority within the meaning of the Land Drainage Act, 1930, petitions against a Bill alleging that the area or district of the authority will be injuriously affected by the provisions of the Bill authorising the abstraction or impounding of water, or the discharge of water into watercourses, within that area or district, it shall be competent to the Referees on Private Bills, if they think fit, to admit the Petitioners to be heard against the Bill or any part thereof.
Standing Order 184, page 201, line 28, leave out from "1870," to the end of the Order, and insert "unless the Committee shall report that the insertion of such a Clause is not required, with the reasons on which their opinion is founded."
Standing Order 269, page 247, line 7, leave out "1899, as amended by any subsequent enactment," and insert "1936."
Table of Fees, page 262, line 5, leave out "Acts, 1899 and 1933," and insert "Act, 1936."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  IRISH FREE STATE.

    PASSPORT REGULATIONS.
    Sir Alfred Beitasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the creation, under the new Constitution, of a sovereign Irish Free State will necessitate the use of passports by British subjects and Irish Free State citizens travelling between the United Kingdom and the Irish Free State; and whether, in view of the fact that the Irish Free State citizen is now deprived of the status of British subject, he will arrange with the Minister of Labour that the same restrictions as are applied to aliens should regulate the entry into the United Kingdom of Irish Free State citizens seeking work?
    The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): I would refer the hon. Member to the latter part of the reply which I gave on 20th July to the hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert).

    BRITISH SUBJECTS (STATUS).
    Sir Nicholas Grattan-Doyleasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been called to the provisions of the Citizenship and Aliens Acts of the Irish Free State in relation to the status of British subjects; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
    Mr. M. MacDonald: Yes, Sir. The views of the United Kingdom Government were made clear in public statements by my predecessor at the time when these Acts were before the Dail, and I have nothing to add to those statements.

    ALBERTA (BONDHOLDERS).
    Mr. H. G. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a further statement in respect of the default of the Government of Alberta?
    Sir John Mellorasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that the Government of Alberta has requested all holders of Alberta securities to register their names and addresses with the Government before

    2825
    16th August, together with a declaration of beneficial ownership; and whether he has any information to give as to the purpose of such action?
    Mr. M. MacDonald: I discussed this matter with the Canadian Minister of Finance when he was in London recently. As a result, I have communicated further with the accredited representatives of the bondholders in this country, informing them of the position hitherto adopted by the Dominion Government. I have read in the Press an account of the recent further announcement made by the Government of Alberta, but I understand that the Dominion Government have no official information regarding it. I have asked our High Commissioner in Canada to keep me informed of all developments.
    Mr. Williams: Does my right hon. Friend, in addition to asking for information, propose to exert any appropriate pressure on those concerned?
    Mr. MacDonald: If there is anything that I could do which might prove effective I should be glad to do it.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    JARROW (STEEL WORKS).
    Miss Wilkinsonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to state when the start will be made in Jarrow on the proposed new steel works?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I am informed that progress is being made with the detailed arrangements for the establishment of the works, but that it cannot yet be said when it will be possible to begin its construction.
    Miss Wilkinson: Is there any likelihood of their starting during these summer months?
    Mr. Stanley: I know that the company are pressing on with the arrangements as fast as possible.
    Miss Wilkinson: Will the Minister during the Recess keep this matter closely in his mind in view of the real anxiety there is about it?
    Mr. Stanley: Yes, I certainly will, but I think that in fairness to those in charge
    2826
    of the company, I ought to say that I know how urgently they regard the matter.

    WAR MATERIAL (EXPORT LICENCES).
    Mr. Manderasked the President of the Board of Trade what action the Government have taken to exercise more careful supervision over the grant of export licences for arms, as referred to in paragraph 26 of the Statement relating to the Report of the Royal Commission on the Private Manufacture of and Trading in Arms, 1935–36; on what principles discretion is exercised; and in what cases during the last two years there have been refusals to grant licences?
    Mr. Stanley: As regards the first two parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to paragraph 26 of the statement to which he refers, and to the paragraphs beginning with paragraph 19 of the memorandum published as Appendix I to the minutes of evidence taken before the Commission on 27th November, 1935. As regards the last part of the question, 13 applications for export licences for war material have been rejected since 1st July, 1935.
    Mr. Mander: Would it not be possible to give the reasons for the rejections?
    Mr. Stanley: No, Sir.

    ANGLO-GERMAN COMMERCIAL TREATY.
    Mr. Liddallasked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to continue to base their policy for the regularisation of imports into this country upon the provisions of Article 10 of the commercial agreement with Germany which was entered into in 1924?
    Mr. Stanley: It is not His Majesty's Government's present intention to denounce or seek any modification of the Anglo-German Commercial Treaty of 1924. My hon. Friend should not, however, assume that their import regulation policy is based solely upon the provisions of that instrument.

    POULTRY INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Liddallasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that imports of eggs in shell increased from 8,974,000 great hundreds in the first six months of 1935 to 11,531,000 great hundreds in the

    2827
    corresponding period of this year; and whether, in view of these facts, he can state what proposals have been made to the Government of Denmark and to the Governments of the other countries with which we have commercial agreements limiting our right to increase import duties on eggs, so that the British egg industry may be adequately protected?
    Mr. Stanley: I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte) on 8th July, a copy of which I am forwarding to my hon. Friend.

    AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY (IMPORTS).
    Mr. Liddallasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the imports of agricultural machinery, which amounted to 4,207 tons in the first six months of 1935, had increased to 5,224 tons for the same period of 1936 and to 6,769 tons for the corresponding period of this year; and whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any additional steps with a view to diminishing this rapid growth of imports of competitive agricultural machinery?
    Mr. Stanley: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am satisfied that the existing machinery set up under the Import Duties Act is adequate to safeguard the interests of the United Kingdom industry.

    FILM INDUSTRY.
    Mr. R. C. Morrisonasked the President of the Board of Trade when the White Paper on the Government's proposals for dealing with the film industry will be available to Members of the House?
    Mr. Dayasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the uncertainty existing in the film trade at the present time on account of the early expiration of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927, he will now make a statement as to the proposed amendments the Government intend to introduce on the expiration of this Act; and when it is intended to publish the proposed White Paper?
    Mr. Stanley: I hope that the White Paper will be available to hon. Members on Thursday evening.
    Mr. Morrison: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to say whether he regards the proposals of the White Paper as an unalterable basis of the forthcoming Bill, or will he be prepared to consider further representations?
    Mr. Stanley: The hon. Member will, of course, realise that time is getting short and that we must press on with the drafting of a Bill, and that the proposals in the White Paper must necessarily form the basis of the Bill; but I will certainly consider any representations on points of substance which I receive between now and the presentation of the Bill.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Will due regard be had to the Scottish side of the film industry? Are their interests to be protected in this Bill?
    Mr. Stanley: I think the conditions both for the English and the Scottish branches of the industry are very much the same, but if the hon. Member has in mind any particular point with reference to Scotland, I should regard that as a substantial point, and one on which I should certainly listen to representations.
    Mr. Day: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great many English broad comedy films are of no use in Scotland?

    SHIPS (INSURANCE).
    Mr. Benjamin Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any action has been taken to implement the report of the Committee on the Insurance of Ships; and whether it is proposed to introduce the legislation recommended by the committee?
    Mr. Stanley: In accordance with the recommendation of the committee, the question of adopting the dual valuation Clause in respect of insurances of British ships is being considered by the industry. The second recommendation, that the amount permitted to be insured in respect of such matters as freight, excess values and disbursements should be limited, has already been put into effect by the market. Accordingly, I hope that legislation will not be necessary.
    Mr. Smith: Will the Committee report before the House meets again, and can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will implement the report?
    Mr. Stanley: There is some misunderstanding. The Committee have reported, and what we are waiting for now is to see the result of the attempts of the industry to put the recommendations into force on a voluntary basis. If those attempts fail, I shall have to reconsider the matter.

    COMPULSORY INSURANCE.
    Captain Heilgersasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now able to say when he expects to receive the report of the Departmental Committee on Compulsory Insurance?
    Mr. Whiteleyasked the President of the Board of Trade when the report of the Committee on Compulsory Insurance will be available; and the reason for the delay?
    Mr. Stanley: I have received the Committee's report and it will be published as a Command Paper forthwith. I hope that copies will be available for Members at the Vote Office before the House rises. In view of the magnitude and complexity of the inquiry I do not consider that there has been any avoidable delay.

    IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Cartlandasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now able to state what action the Government propose to take with regard to the report of the Import Duties Advisory Committee on the iron and steel industry?
    Mr. Stanley: The Committee refer particularly in their report to the desirability of a general oversight of the policy of the iron and steel industry by an independent body looking to the public interest. They point out that this oversight has so far devolved almost inevitably upon them in view of their responsibility in relation to tariff measures. The Import Duties Advisory Committee have been invited, and have agreed, to continue for the time being to exercise this oversight. The Committee's report contains a number of recommendations on other questions. Some of these are now under consideration by the Departments concerned; others are directed mainly to the industry itself.
    Mr. Cartland: Can my right hon. Friend say how long it is proposed that this work of over sighting shall be carried on by the Committee?
    Mr. Stanley: Clearly, while the present temporary conditions of difficulty exist, it will be necessary to have such an oversight, but if conditions substantially change, the whole of this matter will be reconsidered.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the original answer of the right hon. Gentleman mean that the recommendations contained in the report of the Import Duties Advisory Committee are to be carried through by the Committee itself?
    Mr. Stanley: All I referred to in my answer was the question of oversight. That, as I say, will be left to the Import Duties Advisory Committee. A number of other recommendations are now being considered by the Department concerned or by the industry.
    Miss Wilkinson: Is it not just because of the temporary emergency that many of the complaints are being made about the quota system in the giving of orders, and is it not in the public interest to have some completely outside person or body away from the Import Duties Advisory Committee, who are necessarily mixed up in the matter?
    Mr. Stanley: I have considered the matter very carefully, and I have come to the conclusion that the Import Duties Advisory Committee, by their knowledge of the thing, are especially fitted for this duty, and that if you had another independent body for the oversight which, in the nature of their duties the Import Duties Advisory Committee can give, it might lead only to confusion.
    Sir Percy Harris: Have the Committee any staff or organisation to deal with this matter on the spot, or are they dependent entirely upon information given by the industry concerned?
    Mr. Stanley: It is part of the normal duty of the Import Duties Advisory Committee to get information, and their staff are getting it.
    Mr. Louis Smith: Are the Board of Trade satisfied with the progress that has been made during the past 12 months?

    SPAIN.
    Mr. Bellengerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any and, if, so, what arrangements regarding trade

    2831
    payments exist between Great Britain and that part of Spain under insurgent control?
    Mr. Stanley: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 17th December last to the hon. Member for Kirkdale (Mr. Rankin) of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Bellengerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give any information as to the principal features of the German-Spanish trade agreement; and whether such agreement is likely to result in a considerable diversion of iron ore from countries hitherto recipients of such supplies to Germany?
    Mr. Stanley: I am not at present in a position to add to the answer given on 22nd July to the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. David Adams).
    Mr. Bellenger: Has the right hon. Gentleman's Department any information regarding this important treaty?
    Mr. Stanley: The details have not yet been published.
    Mr. T. Williams: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed the persistent decline in the sale of coal from this country to Spain and the decline in the purchases of iron ore?
    Mr. Stanley: We cannot expect a civil war to go on for a year without having some effects.
    Mr. Williams: But has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that just as British trade has diminished German trade in iron ore has increased?
    Mr. Stanley: There is another question on the Paper with regard to iron ore.
    Mr. A. Jenkinsasked the President of the Board of Trade the quantity of iron ore imported by this country from Spain for each year from 1930 and to the most recent date of the current year?
    Mr. Stanley: As the answer includes a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The total tonnage of iron ore and concentrates (excluding chrome iron ore and pyrites) imported into the United Kingdom and consigned from Spain during
    2832
    each of the years 1930–36 and the first six months of 1937 was as follow:

    Tons.

    1930

    …

    …

    …

    1,828,000

    1931

    …

    …

    …

    888,352

    1932

    …

    …

    …

    808,820

    1933

    …

    …

    …

    875,649

    1934

    …

    …

    …

    1,182,275

    1935

    …

    …

    …

    1,128,949

    1936

    …

    …

    …

    1,185,833

    1937 (six months ended June)

    …

    …

    …

    502,203

    Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croftasked the President of the Board of Trade how many foreign ships have been transferred to the British register during the last eight months; and how many of them have been engaged in transporting merchandise and foodstuffs to the ports of Bilbao, Valencia, and Cartagena under the British flag and protection of the British fleet in extra-territorial waters?
    Mr. Stanley: Some 210 foreign ships have been registered or provisionally registered as British since 1st December, 1936. Since that date, so far as I can ascertain, nine of these ships are, or have been, engaged in trade with the Spanish ports named in the question.
    Mr. Mander: Is there anything very wrong in supplying food to starving people?
    Mr. Stanley: I do not know that anybody has suggested that there is.
    Mr. Cocks: Would any ship require protection in extra-territorial waters except from pirates, and is not one of the objects of the British Navy to put down piracy?
    Sir H. Croftasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that large numbers of ships have recently been acquired and chartered under the British flag for trade with the Governments of Valencia, Barcelona and Santander; whether he will state the number of such ships acquired in the last eight months; and whether there is any foreign control of the recently-formed companies operating these ships?
    Mr. Stanley: I am aware that some British ships which have recently changed ownership are engaged in trade with Spain and that some ships trading with Spain are under charter to the Spanish

    2833
    Government authorities. I do not know the number of ships concerned or the extent of any foreign interest there may be in the companies operating them.
    Sir H. Croft: Can my right hon. Friend inform the House whether these ships have been chartered by the transfer of Spanish money, and whether in fact that money has been exported in violation of the constitution of the country?
    Mr. Stanley: I am afraid that I could not give my hon and gallant Friend any information about the source of the capital of these firms, as that is not one of the matters that we have to take into consideration when registering ships.
    Mr. Mander: Is not this a great tribute to the strength and efficiency of the British Navy?
    Miss Horsbrughasked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs what representations have been made to the Spanish Government concerning the murder in Barcelona, on 2nd July, 1936, of Joseph Hood Mitchell, a British subject, who had been assured in the Barcelona law courts that the Catalan authorities would afford him adequate protection; whether he is aware that the alleged murderers, although arrested by the authorities, were discharged without punishment; and what compensation he is requiring from the Spanish Government for Mr. Mitchell's widow, now resident in this country?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Viscount Cranborne): As my hon. Friend is doubtless aware, the outrage in question took place 16 days before the outbreak of the Spanish civil war. During the period 2nd July to 18th July, urgent representations regarding this matter were made to the Spanish Government, who expressed their deep regret at the crime and undertook to take all possible steps to trace the murderers. His Majesty's Government have carefully considered the question of a claim for compensation from the Spanish Government, and have with regret come to the conclusion that there is not sufficient evidence of negligence on the part of the Catalan authorities prior to the murder to justify the formulation of a claim. It appears, in fact, from my information that Mr. Mitchell, who had been threatened for some time, was unwilling to accept police protection. I have
    2834
    not so far been able to ascertain whether, in fact, the murderers were arrested and subsequently released. My hon. Friend will realise the difficulties of making successful inquiries on this point in existing circumstances. If my hon. Friend will, however, communicate to me such information as she possesses tending to substantiate her statement on this point, I will certainly consider requesting His Majesty's Consul-General to investigate this matter further. Should such an investigation confirm the position as set forth by her, I should certainly be prepared to consider further the question of making a request for compensation on this ground.

    ITALY (BRITISH TOURIST TRAFFIC).
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the British tourist traffic is one of the main props of the Italian Government in the matter of foreign exchange; that holidays and cruises are offered by subsidised Italian firms at rates far below those that unsubsidised firms can offer; that Italian nationals are not allowed to spend money in this country; and whether he can take any steps to ensure reciprocal treatment in these matters?
    Mr. Stanley: I am aware that British and other tourist traffic is an important source of foreign exchange for the Italian Government, that Italian shipping concerns receive Government subsidies, and that tourist traffic from Italy to this country, and no doubt to other countries, has diminished owing to Italian currency restrictions. As regards the last part of the question, His Majesty's Government, as at present advised, do not feel able to take any steps in the matter.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is estimated that on eight cruises alone in Italy the Italian Government will pocket £150,000, and can nothing be done to protect our tourist agencies and shipping companies from this form of subsidised competition?
    Mr. Stanley: I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that that £50,000 of sterling exchange becomes available for the purchase of goods in this country

    2835
    and that is a matter in which many hon. Members, particularly from South Wales, find of very great interest.
    Mr. Macquisten: Is it not very kind of the Italian Government to give us these cheap trips in Italy?
    Mr. Riley: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the facilities in Italy for tourists to come to this country?
    Mr. Stanley: My answer shows that the tourist traffic to this country is diminishing because of Italian currency control.
    Mr. H. G. Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman take careful note of the welcome extended to Fascists by hon. Members opposite?

  BRITISH ARMY.

    TERRITORIAL ARMY (CAMPS).
    Mr. Erskine Hillasked the Secretary of State for War whether the standard allowance of ground-sheets to Territorial battalions in camp is one or two per man, and, if two, whether this represents any increase on previous years?
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): Two ground sheets are now provided for each man attending camp, as compared with one a man in previous years.

    INTER-DIVISIONAL EXERCISE.
    Mr. Mabaneasked the Secretary of State for War whether arrangements will be made for Members of the House of Commons who wish to attend the inter-divisional exercise to be held near Cambridge from 9th to 11th September?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Yes, Sir; and the leaders of all the parties are to-day being informed of the arrangements which will be made.

    ROYAL TOURNAMENT AND TATTOOS (PROFITS).
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will indicate the amount and allocations of profits from the Royal Tournament, the Aldershot and other tattoos, respectively, for each of the years 1936 and 1937; and who decides the appropriation of profits in each instance?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I will circulate a table for 1936 in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The figures for 1937 are not yet available. In the case of the Royal Tournament, the allocation of the Army share of the profits is made by a committee at the War Office. In fact case of the Aldershot and other tattoos, the allocation of profits is determined by the trustees of the respective Command Trusts.
    The table is as follows:

    —

    Total net profits in 1936.

    Amount distributed to charities, etc.

    £ s. d.

    £ s. d.

    Royal Tournament

    13,409 3 5

    13,000 0 0

    Aldershot Tattoo…

    41,030 11 5

    40,633 0 0

    Tidworth Tattoo…

    13,511 0 0

    9,439 0 0

    Northern Command Tattoo.

    3,178 2 9

    2,329 10 9

    RECRUITING.
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Secretary of State for War whether the display of the mechanised mate poster has had any influence on the course of recruiting?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I cannot say.
    Mr. White: Will the right hon. Gentleman review the whole policy of spending public money on matters of this kind?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Yes, Sir; it is my intention to do so.

    MILITARY HOSPITALS (CIVIL PRACTITIONERS).
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for War what inquiries have been made by military authorities in various parts of the country to see how far, in the event of emergency, local civil practitioners can be counted upon to act in a civil capacity at military hospitals in the United Kingdom in place of the Royal Army Medical Corps until such time as they would be relieved by the Royal Army Medical Corps officers?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Lists of medical practitioners willing to serve in the capacity referred to are kept in each Command.
    Mr. Day: Can the Minister say whether a great number of letters have gone out?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I do not know how many letters have gone out, but lists are kept of those willing to serve.

    TERRITORIAL ARMY ANTI-AIRCRAFT UNITS.
    Mr. Petherickasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can give any details about the progress made in respect of buildings and equipment for use by anti-aircraft Territorial units; and if he considers the progress already made satisfactory?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The erection of buildings and the provision of equipment is proceeding as quickly as labour and factory conditions and the availability of sites permit. Instructions have been given to make energetic progress with temporary accommodation in all cases where a permanent building will not be completed during the coming winter.
    Mr. Petherick: Can my right hon. Friend give any indication to the House as to when the programme is likely to be completed?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I should prefer to have notice before answering that question precisely.
    Mr. Petherickasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is satisfied with the recruiting for Territorial antiaircraft units; and whether he can give the figures of enlistments in these units for the first six months of 1936 and 1937, respectively?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The number of recruits obtained for Territorial Army anti-aircraft units in the first six months of 1936 was 1,957, and of 1937, 7,666.
    Mr. Petherick: In view of the very satisfactory figures which have been disclosed to the House by my right hon. Friend, can he give an assurance that no further Territorial infantry regiments will be converted into anti-aircraft units when the country is crying out for infantry and can get as many Territorial anti-aircraft men as are necessary?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I should hesitate to commit myself to such an assurance.
    Mr. Dugganasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has any proposals under consideration for the conversion of any Territorial infantry battalions into anti-aircraft units; whether the commanding officers have in each case been consulted; and, if so, whether they favour such proposals?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Apart from conversions already decided, there is one further conversion under consideration. The answer to the second part of the question is "Yes," and the answer to the third part is that in all decided cases they have agreed.
    Mr. Petherick: Will my right hon. Friend consent to receive a deputation from the units concerned?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Yes, Sir; I have already consented that a deputation shall be received by the Under-Secretary of State.
    Mr. Bellenger: Are these units largely composed of mobile forces, or of fixed forces?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: These are conversions of Territorial infantry battalions into anti-aircraft units.
    Mr. Bellenger: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know whether these units are being used as mobile anti-aircraft units, or whether they are fixed?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: That is another question. This question refers to the one outstanding decision which has not yet been taken.

    CONTRACTS (JUTE GOODS).
    Miss Horsbrughasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in all contracts placed by his Department for jute goods, it is stipulated that the goods must be of United Kingdom manufacture; and whether the definition of such manufacture is identical with that included in our trade agreements with foreign countries that the jute cloth is woven in the United Kingdom from yarn spun in the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: As regards jute materials, the contractor is asked to state where the yarn used will be spun, and, as regards made-up jute goods, where the yarn will be spun and the cloth woven. Preference is given in respect of goods for which the spinning and/or weaving is done in the United Kingdom. All recent contracts have been for goods wholly manufactured in the United Kingdom.

    ANTI-AIRCRAFT EQUIPMENT.
    Mr. Walkdenasked the Secretary of State for War what progress has been

    2839
    made in the provision of effective rangefinders or predictors for use with antiaircraft guns; whether such appliances have been thoroughly tested on robot aeroplanes or by other means; and whether he can give any assurance that an air force attacking this country could now be broken by anti-aircraft artillery working with such supplemental equipment?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The hon. Member can hardly expect me to make public information of this character.

    PALESTINE.
    Colonel Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for War whether the War Office have as yet expressed any views on the question of the frontiers of the proposed new Arab State and, in particular, as to communications between the Mediterranean and Aqaba?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: No, Sir, but I understand the Royal Commission had informal conversations with the three Chiefs of Staff.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Are we to understand from that that the matter has not yet been before the Secretary of State?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: No, Sir. Those were informal conversations between the Committee and the Chiefs of Staff.
    Colonel Wedgwood: And no more?
    Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the British Government's unwillingness to continue to administer the Mandate for Palestine, the Government will be prepared to acquiesce in any proposal that may be made by the League of Nations to transfer the Mandate to the United States of America?
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): The first part of the hon. Member's question is not a correct statement of the position; the second part does not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. Mander: In view of the British Government's failure to do the job, would it not be reasonable to let some other suitable country have a try?
    Colonel Sandeman Allen: Would a country not a member of the League of Nations be suitable to accept a mandate?

  SCOTLAND.

    FISHING INDUSTRY.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps have been taken by the Herring Industry Board during the past two years to increase the sale of preserved herring in foreign countries; and what steps, in particular, have been taken to develop the sale of kippers and bloaters in the United States of America?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Elliot): The Herring Industry Board have sent representatives to Russia, Poland, Germany, Palestine, Egypt, Cyprus, Czechoslovakia and South Africa for the purpose of examining the prospects of development of markets. They also exhibited at the Levant Fair held at Tel-Aviv in 1936. For more detailed information on the matter I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the annual reports of the board. As regards the second part of the question, the board have come to the conclusion that the cost of propaganda in the United States for developing the sale of kippers and bloaters would be out of proportion to any results which might be achieved, but they are carefully watching the market with a view to possible expansion.
    Sir T. Moore: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that advertising always pays when you have a thoroughly good article like herring to sell?
    Mr. Macquisten: Does not the Secretary of State believe that, if herring are allowed to be dyed with creosote and other compounds, they will not sell anywhere?
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the total quantities of herring and other fish, respectively, landed at Greenock during each of the years 1886, 1896, 1906, 1916, 1926, and 1936, respectively?
    Mr. Elliot: As the reply involves a statistical table, I propose, with the hon.

    2841
    and learned Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the table:

    Port of Greenock.

    Fish landed 1886 to 1936.

    Year.

    Herring.

    Other Fish.

    Shell Fish.

    Cwts.

    £

    Cwts.

    £

    £

    1886

    …

    8r

    41

    609

    421

    214

    1896

    …

    —

    —

    1,674

    1,345

    1,094

    1906

    …

    2,360

    720

    378

    269

    846

    1916

    …

    —

    —

    80

    217

    1,132

    1926

    …

    714

    376

    4

    6

    656

    1936

    …

    7,105

    3,812

    26

    30

    93

    MILK (PASTEURISATION).
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the report issued by the milk production department of the West of Scotland Agricultural College with regard to the deleterious effect of pasteurising milk; and what proportion of the milk used in connection with the milk-in-schools scheme under his Department is pasteurised and fresh, respectively?
    Mr. Elliot: I have seen the report in question, which relates to an experiment into the relative value of raw and pasteurised milk in calf-feeding. I should point out that the results of any single experiment have to he taken in conjunction with a great number of other experiments on this subject which have been and are being made. As regards the second part of the question, 53 per cent. of the milk used in connection with the milk-in-schools scheme in Scotland is pasteurised, and 47 per cent. untreated. A large proportion of the milk in both categories is tuberculin-tested.

    TOWN COUNCILS (VACANCIES).
    Mr. Watsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider introducing legislation to amend Section 36 of the Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1900, to enable town councils, in the event of vacancies occurring through resignations or deaths of members, to fill such vacancies by holding by-elections?
    Mr. Elliot: I am not satisfied, on the information before me, that there is need for amending legislation on this point.
    Mr. Watson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the dissatisfaction that exists, particularly in the large burghs, with the present system; and does he not think that these large burghs should enjoy the same privileges as other citizens of Scotland in regard to this matter?
    Mr. Elliot: No representations have been received on the matter from the local authorities' association, and the Convention of Burghs have not received any complaints or representations on the matter.

    MENTAL INSTITUTIONS (STAFFS' WORKING HOURS).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total number of attendants and nurses on the staffs of or employed at mental institutions in Scotland as at 31st May, 1937; how many of these individuals had a tour of duty extending to 84 or more hours, 78 and under 84 hours, 72 and under 78 hours, 66 and under 72 hours. 60 and under 66 hours, 54 and under 60 hours, 48 and under 54 hours, 42 and under 48 hours, and under 42 hours per week, respectively; what are the corresponding figures for the Smithston institution in Greenock; and whether he has any further statement to make regarding the working week of these individuals?
    Mr. Elliot: I will, with the permission of the hon. and learned Member, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving the information desired. As regards the last part of the question, no legislation on this subject is in contemplation.
    Mr. Gibson: With reference to the answer to the last part of the question, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any alteration in the number of local authorities that apply the 48-hour week to these people, and whether there is any alteration in the number of local authorities that have the question under consideration?
    Mr. Elliot: The hon. and learned Member would need to put that question down.
    Following is the statement:

    Mental Institutions in Scotland.

    —

    Number of Nurses and Attendants employed as at 31st May, 1937.

    84 or more.

    78 and under 84.

    72 and under 78.

    66 and under 72.

    60 and under 60.

    54 and under 60.

    48 and under 54.

    42 and under 48.

    Under 42.

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Total

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Nurses

    Attendants

    Including meal hours—all Mental Institutions in Scotland including Greenock Parochial Asylum.

    2,414

    1,563

    3,977

    13*

    3

    40†

    9

    36

    14

    1,121

    769

    652

    364

    375

    278

    124

    107

    53

    18

    —

    1

    Greenock Parochial Asylum

    22

    27

    49

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    6

    22

    20

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Excluding meal hours—all Mental Institutions in Scotland including Greenock Parochial Asylum.

    2,414

    1,563

    3,977

    4*

    —

    —

    1

    27†

    11

    17

    13

    1,020

    681

    805

    469

    252

    191

    289

    196

    —

    1

    Greenock Parochial Asylum

    22

    27

    49

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    22

    27

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    * Of these 4 are Sisters of a religious order.
    † Of these 20 are Sisters of a religious order

    HOUSING.
    Mr. Stephenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses in the Camlachie division which are either condemned as being slums or unfit for human habitation; the number of houses in which families are overcrowded; and the number of such houses which were closed during last year and the previous year?
    Mr. Elliot: I am informed that the number of houses in the Camlachie Parliamentary Division which are being dealt with under the Housing Acts as unfit for human habitation or are at present on the Corporation's list awaiting such action, is 622 and that the numbers of unfit houses closed or demolished during 1935, 1936 and the first half of 1937 were 167, 153 and 28 respectively. The latest available information with regard to the number of overcrowded houses in the Division was obtained as a result of the overcrowding survey at the end of 1935, when the number was 5,660.
    Mr. Stephen: In view of the reduction of the number of houses that are being closed, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the effect that there should be an increase rather than a decrease in the number closed?
    Mr. Elliot: It is a little difficult to make representations to local authorities with regard to the manner in which they carry out their slum clearance.
    Mr. Kirkwood: In view of the fact that over 600 houses in the hon. Member's constituency are unfit for human habitation, will the Secretary of State intimate to the 600 families who are living in those houses that they do not require to pay any rent for the houses in which they are living? Will the right hon. Gentleman inform them that that is the law of the land?
    Mr. Elliot: I do not think that that arises out of the question on the Paper, but the hon. Member will be aware that these matters are very well known.
    Mr. Stephen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is only in the case of those houses that are ordered to be closed that the tenants do not require to pay rent?
    Mr. Elliot: It is quite impossible to go into that matter now.
    Mr. Stephenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the average cost and size of the houses built by Kilsyth and Johnstone which are let at a rent of 5s. a week or under; and the estimated average cost and rent of houses of similar size in any of the housing schemes of the Glasgow and Edinburgh Corporations respectively?
    Mr. Elliot: The only houses built by Kilsyth Town Council which are let at 5s. a week or under are of two apartments, and the average building cost is estimated at from £340 to £350. Johnstone Town Council have built some houses of two, three and four apartments, and three of five apartments, which are let at 5s. per week and under, and the average building cost is estimated at £299. The information which the hon. Member desires regarding Glasgow and Edinburgh will take some time to obtain. I am, however, in touch with the authorities of these cities and shall communicate to the hon. Member later such information as is available.
    Mr. Stephenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses built in the Camlachie division each year for the last six years; the number it is proposed to build this year; the rents at which such houses are let; and the rents proposed to be charged for the houses under construction or to be built this year?
    Mr. Elliot: The number of houses built by the Corporation of Glasgow in the Camlachie Division in each of the six years 1931 to 1936 was:

    1931

    …

    …

    …

    294

    1932

    …

    …

    …

    108

    1933

    …

    …

    …

    None.

    1934

    …

    …

    …

    None.

    1935

    …

    …

    …

    54

    1936

    …

    …

    …

    None.

    I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing the rents charged for these houses.
    I am informed that the Corporation have 30 houses in course of erection in the Division, and proposals under consideration for the building of approxi-

    2847
    mately 770. The rents to be charged for houses under construction have not yet been fixed.

    Houses built by Corporation of Glasgow in Camlachie Parliamentary Division during 1931–1936.

    Year.

    1931.

    1932.

    2933.

    1934.

    1935.

    1936.

    Number of Houses built by Corporation …

    294

    108

    —

    —

    54

    —

    DISTURBANCE, EDINBURGH.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Lord Advocate whether he has considered the charges made against members of the Edinburgh City Police Force alleging unnecessary violence during and after the arrest of Mr. Fred Douglas on 20th June, whereby he was rendered unconscious and had to be treated for some days in the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary; and what action he proposes to take?
    The Lord Advocate (Mr. T. M. Cooper): Yes, Sir. This matter was fully investigated on my instructions, and the information before me does not indicate that the police used more force than was reasonable and necessary to overcome violent resistance to arrest. The trial of Douglas and of certain other persons on charges arising out of this disturbance is at present in progress, and I am, therefore, unable to say more at the moment.
    Mr. Mathers: In view of what the right hon. and learned Gentleman says, will it still be possible for eye-witnesses of the police handling of this man to make representations, and to whom should they make representations, and will they be protected by the right hon. and learned Gentleman in any way?
    The Lord Advocate: Certainly, any representations addressed to the Procurator-Fiscal on the subject will be considered by him and by me, but I have no reason to suppose that any person making such representations will require protection.
    Mr. H. G. Williams: Can my right hon. Friend indicate what is the complexion of this disgraceful local authority?
    Following is the statement:
    Mr. Gallacher: Has the Lord Advocate made any inquiries into the allegations regarding maltreatment in the prison itself, and is he aware that I myself have had experience of pretty rough treatment from the police in Edinburgh?

    LEAD ORE AND LIMESTONE, COUNTY DURHAM.
    Mr. Sextonasked the Secretary for Mines the total value at the mines of the lead ore produced in Durham County for the years 1916, 1918 and 1936, respectively?
    The Secretary for Mines (Captain Crookshank): The value at the mines of dressed lead ore produced in Durham County in 1916 was £80,385, in 1918 £50,542, and in 1936 £2,899.
    Mr. Sexton: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman enlist the assistance of the Minister of Labour and the Commissioner for the Special Areas, seeing that the figures mean that only 20 per cent. of the lead workers are working and 80 per cent. are unemployed?
    Mr. Sextonasked the Secretary for Mines the total value at the quarry of the limestone produced in Durham County for the years 1916, 1918, and 1936, respectively?
    Captain Crookshank: The value at the quarry of limestone produced in Durham County in 1916 was £209,460; in 1918 £422,378; and in 1936, £220,941.

    ISLAND SITE, SOUTH KENSINGTON.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether, in connection with his recent invitation for offers for the island site opposite the Victoria and Albert Museum, he is aware of the considerable trouble and expense to which various firms were put in submitting tenders and of their anxiety that it is intended to disregard these tenders and proceed to dispose of the site in another way; whether it is his intention to impose upon the prospective purchaser any conditions additional to those referred to in the invitation for offers; and whether he will arrange that in future tenders will not be invited for the purchase of any State landed property unless the proposed restrictions are disclosed to the tenderers and unless it is definitely proposed to dispose of the property by such means?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. and gallant Member would appear to be under a misapprehension. There has never been any intention of disregarding the tenders made for the island site; nor is it intended to impose upon the prospective purchaser any conditions additional to those referred to in the invitation for offers. The suggestion in the last part of the question merely describes what is in fact the existing practice, since without such disclosure there could be no firm basis of contract for the sale of the property.
    Mr. Bellenger: On whose advice was this method of sale adopted, and why was not the property put up for public auction?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member had better put those questions down.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
    Mr. George Griffiths: On a point of Order. A week ago to-day I put down a question to the Prime Minister which has been referred to the Minister of Health and appears to-day as No. 84. It arises out of the Speech from the Throne on 1st November, which said:
    "Measures will also be submitted to you to reduce the age limit for the award of pensions to blind persons."
    I wish to ask you, Sir, whether the Prime Minister is not the person who should answer that question, and not the Minister of Health.
    Mr. Speaker: It is not for me to judge whether it is the Prime Minister's business to answer it if he likes to delegate it to the Department concerned.
    Mr. Griffiths: Last week the Prime Minister answered a question regarding old age pensions. This is a question affecting pensions for the blind, and I feel that the Prime Minister should have been the person to answer it, and not the Minister of Health.
    Mr. Speaker: I am afraid I cannot help the hon. Member.

    UNITED STATES (BRITISH DEBT).
    Mr. Leachasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider preparing a new plan for the settlement of the American Debt whereby the United States Government is prepared to forego all interest charges and treat all payments so far made as repayment of capital?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to my hon. Friend the Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) on 22nd April last.
    Mr. Leach: Is there any truth in the statement that an offer is being considered by the American Government precisely on these lines?
    Sir J. Simon: I think it is a mistake to attach too much importance to that sort of rumour.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    SUPERANNUATION.
    Mr. Gordon Macdonaldasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to state his decision as to the instituting of an inquiry into the request to reckon the temporary service of civil servants for pensionable purposes?
    Sir J. Simon: Questions affecting the placing of ex-service men in temporary employment in the Government service on the pensionable establishment, particularly in regard to those employed as temporary clerks, were exhaustively examined by the Lytton and Southborough Committees, and more recently

    2851
    by the Royal Commission on the Civil Service. They were, moreover, the subject of an agreement between the Treasury and the Association of Ex-Service Civil Servants which was concluded on the express terms that it was an agreed final settlement of the claims to permanent employment in the Civil Service of ex-service men then temporarily employed. As a result the vast majority of the ex-service clerks temporarily employed for any length of time have been placed on the pensionable establishment. The agreement involved acceptance of the conditions of establishment in force at that time, namely, that it was subject to an age limit of 50 and that unestablished service did not reckon for pension. These conditions must be regarded as final for those established prior to or in pursuance of the agreement. Any relaxation of these conditions for temporary clerks established at a later date must remain consistent with these conditions and with general Civil Service practice. Relaxations up to this limit have in fact been conceded. I have reviewed the whole matter on its merits and feel bound to uphold the essential distinction between established and unestablished service—a distinction which lies at the base of the determination of pension rights for all branches of the Civil Service. In these circumstances I have come to the conclusion that no useful purpose would be served by yet another inquiry.
    Mr. Macdonald: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that such a decision means a very severe hardship on thousands of people with long service in the Civil Service?
    Sir J. Simon: I can assure the hon. Member that I have looked into the matter myself with every desire to consider the difficulties of it—and there are difficulties—and I really have no doubt that a further inquiry would serve no useful purpose.
    Mr. Holdsworth: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very strong feeling among Members on all sides of the House with regard to this question? Would he be prepared, if necessary, to receive a representative deputation of Members as to the necessity of setting up a further inquiry?
    Sir J. Simon: I said earlier on that it would have to be considered carefully whether a further inquiry should he instituted. No doubt the application for such an inquiry was made to me because I was newly come to the Treasury. I have looked into the matter myself, and find myself in complete agreement with the views taken by my predecessor that there is no justification for a new inquiry.
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: As the right hon. Gentleman is so sure of the justice of his case, surely he would not risk anything by submitting it to the judgment of an impartial committee, especially as the organisation which represents these men has said that it will abide by the judgment of such a committee?
    Sir J. Simon: At the time of the previous inquiry an undertaking was given that the organisation would accept the conclusion. I am afraid that in those circumstances I do not think it desirable to have a new inquiry.
    Mr. Mathers: Have not the conditions changed in view of the later generosity to Ministers, judges and Members of Parliament, and can there not be a like generosity extended to civil servants?

    ANTI-AIRCRAFT PRECAUTIONS (INSTRUCTION).
    Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many civil servants have volunteered hitherto to aid in anti-aircraft precaution work?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut.-Colonel Colville): Arrangements are being made whereby civil servants will be enabled to obtain voluntary instruction in regard to personal protection against the effects of gas. In addition volunteers are being invited for decontamination and casualty clearing squads. I assume that my hon. Friend has particularly in mind the latter work. I regret that the figures which he desires could not be obtained without great labour, and would in any case be incomplete, as the scheme is so far only at its inception.

    LEAVE (TERRITORIAL ARMY CAMPS).
    Mr. Cartlandasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the provision of special leave with pay for civil servants who attend Territorial Army

    2853
    camps, as announced by his predecessor on 15th July, 1936, is confined to civil servants on the permanent establishment?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: No, Sir. The arrangements in question, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy, apply to regularly employed full time civil servants of all grades and to temporary staff provided they have completed six months' service.
    Mr. Cartland: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend quite satisfied that every Government Department knows about these regulations?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: Yes, Sir.

    NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    Sir Douglas Thomsonasked the Minister of Pensions whether the new contract for the supply of surgical boots to disabled ex-service men, replacing the contract recently held by an Aberdeen firm, calls for hoots hand-made throughout as have been hitherto supplied?
    The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Ramsbotham): The new contract follows the form in use over the whole Kingdom with the single exception of North Ireland. It provides for "bespoke hand-sewn" boots throughout except that the soles may be machine stitched and the heels attached mechanically.
    Sir D. Thomsonasked the Minister of Pensions how many orders for surgical boots for disabled ex-service men were completed in Scotland in 1936; and in how many cases were these orders to repeat as previously supplied?
    Mr. Ramsbotham: 1,702 pairs of surgical boots were supplied in the whole of Scotland during the year 1936. I have no record of the precise number of these which were renewals on existing specifications, but the great majority would be of this description.

    AFFORESTATION (KIELDER AND REDESDALE).
    Colonel Clifton Brownasked the right hon. Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, how many of the forest-workers' cottages at
    2854
    Kielder, commenced last autumn, are now completed and occupied?
    Colonel Sir George Courthope: None of the cottages referred to is completed and occupied.
    Colonel Brown: Is it not the fact that these cottages were constructed for occupation last Christmas and that the men actually worked on Sundays; and how does my hon. and gallant Friend account for the tremendous delay in this case?
    Sir G. Courthope: My hon. and gallant Friend is mistaken. The outdoor building work was interrupted during the winter. Many of the cottages are nearly ready and occupants have been selected, but are not actually in occupation.
    Colonel Brownasked the right hon. Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, whether the increased grant for the relief of unemployment has been utilised in the Kielder Forest and the Redesdale Forest; and how far are these two places distant by road from the nearest Special Areas?
    Sir G. Courthope: Part of the Forestry Commissioners' increased grant for the scheme of afforestation and holdings in and within a 15 miles radius of the Special Areas in England and Wales has been utilised in Kielder and Redesdale Forests which are respectively 11 miles and 24 miles by road from the nearest Special Area.
    Mr. Sexton: How does it come about that some of these places for afforestation are 24 miles away from the Special Area when they have to be within 15 miles?
    Sir G. Courthope: They are within 15 miles as the crow flies, but there happens to be a very winding road between them.
    Mr. Sexton: The unemployed have not yet got wings.

    COMMERCIAL DIPLOMATIC OFFICERS' UNESTABLISHED ASSISTANTS.
    Mr. H. G. Williamsasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the question of the establishment of the 15 unestablished

    2855
    persons who perform duties similar to the eight established assistants to commercial diplomatic officers?
    Mr. R. S. Hudson (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): I regret I am not yet in a position to make a statement.

  TRANSPORT.

    ROAD OPERATORS (OFFENCES).
    Colonel Sandeman Allenasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that licensing authorities are threatening road operators with the loss of licences for offences committed by their employés at times and places where it is impossible for them to exercise control; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Captain Austin Hudson): I understand that the licensing authorities have, where necessary, drawn the attention of operators to the provisions of Section 13 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933. The Statute gives the operator the right to ask for a public inquiry before any revocation or suspension. There is a further right of appeal to the Appeal Tribunal.
    Colonel Sandeman Allen: Do I understand from that answer that the traffic authorities do not call for the public inquiry, but that the operator himself asks for it?
    Captain Hudson: Section 13 says that a licence cannot be revoked or suspended unless a breach of conditions has been frequent or wilful or has involved danger to the public, and that the licensing authority cannot revoke or suspend until a public inquiry into the matter has been held if the holder of the licence so requests. So that it is at his request.

    LIVERPOOL-HULL TRUNK ROAD.
    Sir Robert Rankinasked the Minister of Transport the approximate estimated total cost of bringing the Liverpool-Hull trunk road up to the standards evolved for it; what mileage of the road is already regarded as completed; and by what approximate date the entire Toad will be finished?
    Captain Hudson: The survey of the Liverpool-Hull trunk road has not yet been completed. For some 25 miles eastward from Liverpool, the trunk road is the East Lancashire Road which was constructed between 1929 and 1934 at a cost of about £2,750,000 and is of adequate width for traffic needs. Along the remaining 70 miles much new construction may be required to bring the road up to modern standards, but I am not able at this stage to estimate the cost of these works or to say when they are likely to be put in hand.

    HULL DOCKS (SIDING ACCOMMODATION).
    Mr. Holdsworthasked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been called to the chronic congestion at the docks at Hull due, among other things, to the lack of siding accommodation, and the serious effect this is having on the pit-wood trade; and whether he will consider making representations to the London and North Eastern Railway Company with a view to steps being taken to relieve the congestion or, alternatively, to reduce the weighing charges at Immingham?
    Captain Hudson: I am informed by the London and North Eastern Railway Company that the difficulty which is occurring in connection with pit-wood traffic at Hull is due largely to the length of time taken in discharging cargoes of scrap iron and steel. The number of vessels containing such cargoes is exceptional. The company is taking all practicable measures to ensure the expeditious clearance of vessels at Hull. They have accommodation available at Grimsby and Immingham suitable for the discharging of scrap iron and steel, and the total of the dock charges made there for vessels conveying scrap compares favourably with the charges made at Hull.
    Mr. Kirby: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there is no such congestion at Liverpool, that it is a place having a very heavy burden of unemployment, and that it would be very glad to take over this additional tonnage?
    Mr. Muff: Is it correct to use the phrase "chronic congestion"? Is it not the fact that the timber trade is a seasonal trade and that the whole docks are very highly efficient for handling this trade, and that July happens to be the peak month?

    ELECTRICITY SUPPLY (LLANELLY AND DISTRICT).
    Mr. Hopkinasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the householders of the Cross Hands, Gorslas, Cefneithyn, and Cwmmawr districts were obliged to spend £653 11s. on the changeover from the D.C. supply by the colliery company to the A.C. supply from the Llanelly and District Electric Company, Limited; and whether he will set up an inquiry into all the circumstances of the change-over to the electric company and call for a report?
    Captain Hudson: I understand that the non-statutory undertaking of the colliery company was acquired by the authorised undertakers by agreement. The undertakers voluntarily assisted consumers in changing or adapting their apparatus free of cost for the changed supply, but they were not prepared to bear the cost of putting consumers' wiring in order in cases where this was necessary in the interests of safety. The undertakers submitted that they were under no legal liability to do so, and the matter is one which I have no power to decide.
    Mr. Hopkin: If I send the hon. and gallant Gentleman details of how this £653 was spent, will he re-open the matter?
    Captain Hudson: My last sentence was: "The matter is one which I have no power to decide." I may tell the hon. Member that we are proposing that power should be taken in the contemplated electricity legislation.
    Mr. Hopkin: Will the Minister hold an inquiry, as it is an urgent matter for the people in the district?
    Captain Hudson: I will see if we have any power to do so.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    JUNIOR INSTRUCTION CENTRES (PROVISION OF MEALS).
    Mr. George Hallasked the Minister of Labour whether he has now considered the report of the National Advisory Council for Juvenile Employment for England and Wales on the provision of meals for juveniles in attendance at junior instruction centres; and what steps he
    2858
    proposes to take to give effect to the recommendation of the committee?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I have decided to adopt these recommendations and propose to take the necessary steps to give legislative effect to them at the earliest opportunity.

    ASSISTANCE.
    Mr. W. Joseph Stewartasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to deal with the question of men declared by the Unemployment Assistance Board as ineligible for assistance; and is he aware that, owing to the action of the Board, large numbers of able-bodied unemployed are being made subject to Poor Law relief?
    Mr. E. Brown: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to questions on this subject on Thursday last by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. E. Smith) of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Stewart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the local authorities have to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds annually to maintain able-bodied unemployed whose maintenance ought to be a national, and not a local charge?
    Mr. Brown: If the hon. Member will study the answer which I am sending him, he will see that I received a deputation from the authorities affected, and I am considering the points which they put to me.
    Mr. Thorne: Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give a definite reply before the House adjourns?
    Mr. Brown: No, Sir.
    Mr. Thorne: Then I suppose we have to wait until about November?

    GOVERNMENT POLICY.
    Mr. Dayasked the Minister of Labour whether he will give particulars of what further steps the Government propose to take to counteract the destructive effects of idleness in the distressed areas?
    Mr. E. Brown: It is not possible to include within the compass of an answer to a Parliamentary question all that the Government is doing to relieve unemployment. I would refer the hon. Member to statements made in recent Debates.
    Mr. Day: Is it the intention of the Government to issue loans for industrial development?
    Mr. Brown: That is another question altogether, and it has been referred to several times in Debates.

    SOUTH WALES AND MONMOUTHSHIRE.
    Mr. Johnasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction existing in the Rhondda at the absence of the establishment of new industries in the area; and will he take all possible steps either to establish works under the Government Departments or to influence industrialists to establish new industries in the Rhondda area?
    Mr. E. Brown: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Rhondda, East (Mr. Mainwaring) yesterday of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. John: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the trading estate will not affect the Rhondda Valley, but that there are thousands of unemployed in close proximity to the Rhondda Trading Estate and that there are over 10 per cent. of the unemployed of the Special Area in South Wales unemployed in the

    Table showing the numbers of unemployed persons on the registers of these Employment Exchanges at 21st June, 1937.

    Employment Exchange.

    Wholly employed

    Temporarily Stopped

    Total.

    Ferndale

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    3,086

    55

    3,141

    Porth

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2,687

    25

    2,712

    Tonypandy

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    4,032

    151

    4,183

    Treorchy (including Ton Pentre)

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    3,451

    73

    3,524

  AGRICULTURE.

    MILK BARS.
    Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the Minister of Agriculture whether investigations are being made to ascertain whether milk bars are patronised mainly by adults or juveniles?
    Mr. Ramsbotham: I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend is not aware of any investigations into this matter, but it is understood from the Milk Marketing Board, that, in general, milk bars are patronised mainly by adults.
    Mr. Duckworth: Will the Minister do his best to increase propaganda which
    2860
    Rhondda Valley; and in view of that large number and the distressed conditions in the Rhondda itself, will he not consider the advisability of doing something for the Rhonddas?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member will know that the Commissioner has only just received his new powers, and he will use every reasonable effort to attract new industries to that area.
    Mr. Mainwaring: Has the Commissioner in fact decided that any new industry must be within the trading estate and not be allowed to go outside?
    Mr. Brown: No, Sir. The answer has been given about that several times, and it is not so.

    STATISTICS (SOUTH WALES).
    Mr. Johnasked the Minister of Labour the number of totally and temporarily unemployed at the latest available date at each of the following Exchanges: Ferndale, Forth, Tonypandy, and Treorchy?
    Mr. E. Brown: As the reply includes a table of figures I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    will induce the young and rising generation to use these milk bars, to the advantage of themselves and the farmers?
    Mr. Macquisten: Will the Minister see that no more money is spent by the Milk Board in newspaper advertisements?

    RABBITS (DAMAGE).
    Mr. Hopkinasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can now make a statement as to his plans for dealing with the prevention of damage by rabbits?
    Mr. Ramsbotham: The matter is under active consideration, but my right hon. Friend regrets that at the moment he is unable to make any statement.

    AIR RAID PRECAUTIONS (LIVERPOOL).
    Mr. Kirbyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has yet established in Liverpool any gas-mask stores; and, if so, what number of masks have so far been stored therein?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): A large regional supply depot for respirators has been established in Liverpool; it came into occupation on the 19th of this month and is now ready for the reception of the respirators.
    Mr. Kirby: Am I to understand that there are no respirators there now?
    Mr. Lloyd: That is correct.
    Colonel Sandeman Allen: Can the Under-Secretary say how soon respirators will be available in considerable numbers?

    Examinations by the Medical Board in pursuance of applications for death and disablement certificates from silicosis or silicosis accompanied by tuberculosis.

    Year.

    Disablement

    Death

    Workmen examined.

    Certified to be wholly or partially disabled by the disease.

    Applications dealt with.

    Certified to be caused by the disease.

    1936

    …

    …

    …

    1,001

    499

    281

    197

    1935

    …

    …

    …

    827

    435

    226

    174

    1934

    …

    …

    …

    680

    410

    201

    147

    1933

    …

    …

    …

    650

    429

    191

    149

    1932

    …

    …

    …

    570

    382

    175

    139

    Total …

    3,728

    2,155

    1,074

    806

    ARMAMENT FACTORIES, LANCASHIRE.
    Mr. G. Macdonaldasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence the number of factories established in Lancashire in consequence of the rearmament policy, and the number of persons engaged therein?
    The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence (Sir Thomas Inskip): Three new factories at present employing 719 persons have been established in Lancashire at Government expense in consequence of the rearmament programme. Two other factories are in course of establishment.
    Mr. Lloyd: Immediately. They will be delivered at the rate of 500,000 a week, and there should be about 3,000,000 there at the end of August.

    SILICOSIS.
    Mr. G. Macdonaldasked the Home Secretary the number of cases alleged to be suffering from silicosis that have been submitted to the medical board during each of the last five years; also the number that have been certified as suffering from the said disease, giving separate figures for Lancashire and Cheshire?
    Mr. Lloyd: As the reply involves a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I regret that separate information for Lancashire and Cheshire is not available.
    Following is the statement:

    CHINA AND JAPAN.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the latest development in the Chino-Japanese crisis?
    Viscount Cranborne: I understand that my right hon. Friend is to make a statement at the end of Questions in reply to a Private Notice Question from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will be good enough to await that statement.
    Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government are taking any action with a view to bringing about a cessation of hostilities in China?
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): According to my information, an agreement was reached locally on 19th July and the Chinese 37th Division began withdrawing from Peking, their garrison duties being taken over by the 132nd Division. This greatly eased the situation. Barricades and defences within Peking were removed and soldiers in the streets were replaced by the Peace Preservation Corps. There appears also to have been a withdrawal of Japanese troops in the area of conflict. Subsequently, however, difficulties appear to have arisen in connection with the withdrawal of the 37th Division and a Chinese official arrived in Peking on 26th July to assist in further negotiations.
    In the meantime, I regret to have to inform the House that at 11 p.m. on 25th July fighting broke out between Japanese and Chinese soldiers at Lang-fang, a place on the railway half-way between Peking and Tientsin. There were some casualties and early on 26th July the Japanese attacked the Chinese regiment involved from the air. Railway communication was interrupted on 26th July. I have no information as to fighting in Peking itself. A report has reached me of the possibility of action by Japanese troops in the city as well as outside, and I have instructed His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires in Tokyo to express the earnest hope of His Majesty's Government that such action will be avoided. Apart from that, His Majesty's Government have continued to urge on both the Japanese and Chinese Governments with reference to the situation generally their concern and their interest in seeing a peaceful settlement reached. I understand that similar action has been taken both at Tokyo and Nanking by the United States and French Governments. In the meanwhile, His Majesty's Government are maintaining constant touch with other Governments concerned, particularly the United States Government.
    I would add that local schemes exist for the protection of British subjects in those parts and will be put into operation if the emergency arises.
    Mr. Mander: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Governments with which he is keeping in touch include the Soviet Government?
    Mr. Eden: We are keeping several Governments informed, apart from the United States Government.
    Mr. Mander: Is the Soviet Government one of them?
    Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any proposals have been received from the Chinese Government concerning the evacuation or protection of British nationals in Peking?
    Mr. Eden: During the last day or two?
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Yes.
    Mr. Eden: Not in the last day or two.

  HOUSING.

    SMALL DWELLINGS ACQUISITION (LAW COSTS).
    Mr. R. C. Morrisonasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, under rules recently made by the Law Society, town clerks who are qualified solicitors have been precluded from acting for borrowers in their purchases under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts; and, in view of the fact that this decision will place an extra and unnecessary cost of £8 to £10 upon many house purchasers, whether he will take steps to have this decision reconsidered so far as it applies to local authorities and in the meantime to suspend the operation of the rule?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernays): I understand that certain rulings have been given by the Law Society as to the effect of the Solicitors Practice Rules, 1936, made under Section 1 of the Solicitors Act, 1933. My right hon. Friend has no jurisdiction in the matter.

    LIVERPOOL.
    Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Health the number of houses inspected in the city of Liverpool during the past 12 months; and how many were found to fall short of reasonable modern standards?
    Mr. Bernays: The answer to the first part of the question is 74,631: in answer to the second part, 3,380 of these houses were found to be unfit for human habitation and a further 29,800 not to be in all respects reasonably fit.
    Mr. Kirby: Can the lion. Member say the number of families affected in the figure of 3,000 odd?
    Mr. Bernays: I am afraid that I cannot do so without notice.

    NUTRITION.
    Mr. T. Smithasked the Minister of Health whether the committee of inquiry into the question of nutrition have had under consideration the scales of unemployment assistance; and, if so, whether they are considered adequate, especially in view of the increase in the cost of foodstuffs?
    Mr. Bernays: The Advisory Committee on Nutrition is dealing with the general question of the diet of the people and dietary surveys are at present being undertaken in certain areas which deal with working-class families and which may include persons in receipt of public assistance.

    BLIND PERSONS BILL.
    Mr. G. Griffithsasked the Minister of Health when the Bill to reduce the age limit for the award to blind persons is to be submitted?
    Mr. Bernays: My right hon. Friend regrets that it has not been found possible to introduce this Bill during the present Session, but he is hoping to arrange for its introduction early next Session.

    TRINIDAD.
    Mr. Chorltonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the companies in Trinidad propose to maintain special private guards to protect the white women and children on the oil fields and estates?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward (Treasurer of the Household): I have been asked to reply to this question. The Governor of Trinidad reports that no such proposal is under consideration. The
    2866
    Governor himself is taking steps to organise the local defence forces on a wider basis in consultation with the managers of the companies and estates concerned.
    Mr. Chorltonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a speech by the Acting Colonial Secretary, made in the Trinidad Legislature, in which expression was given by him to extreme views which seriously invalidate the impartiality of his official position; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    Sir A. Lambert Ward: The attention of my right hon. Friend has been drawn to certain expressions which are said to have been used by the Acting Colonial Secretary of Trinidad in a speech in the Legislative Council. He has not, however, yet received a copy of the full text of this speech and cannot therefore make any comment upon it at present.

    CAMEROONS (WORKERS' WAGES).
    Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the plantations in the mandated territory of the Cameroons, in connection with which the workers are paid partly in wages and partly in credit notes on plantation stores; and whether he can say if this practice was in operation prior to the granting of the mandate?
    Sir A. Lambert Ward: My right hon. Friend understands that the practice to which the hon. Member refers is followed on plantations owned by the African Fruit Company of Hamburg, the West African Plantation Company, the "Likomba" Kamerun Bananen Gesellschaft. He is not aware whether this practice was in operation prior to the granting of the Mandate. A full inquiry is to be made into the system during 1937 with a view to taking all necessary measures either to abolish it or to ensure that it is in no way abused.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 222; Noes, 105.

Division No. 312.]

AYES.

[3.49 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Gledhill, G.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Gluckstein, L. H.

Munro, P.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Goldie, N. B.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Goodman, Col. A. W.

Owen, Major G.

Apsley, Lord

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Palmer, G. E. H.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Granville, E. L.

Patrick, C. M.

Balniel, Lord

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Peake, O.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Peters, Dr. S. J.

Beit, Sir A. L.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Petherick, M.

Bernays, R. H.

Grimston, R. V.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Blair, Sir R.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Pilkington, R.

Blaker, Sir R.

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Boulton, W. W.

Guy, J. C. M.

Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

Brass, Sir W.

Hannah, I. C.

Procter, Major H. A.

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Radford, E. A.

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Harbord, A.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Harris, Sir P. A.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Bull, B. B.

Hartington, Marquess of

Ramsbotham, H.

Butler, R. A.

Harvey, Sir G.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's)

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Cartland, J. R. H.

Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

Rayner, major R. H.

Cary, R. A.

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Ramer, J. R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Hepworth, J.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Channon, H.

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Chorlton, A. E, L.

Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

Rowlands, G.

Christie, J. A.

Higgs, W. F.

Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Russell, Sir Alexander

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Holdsworth, H.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Holmes, J. S.

Salmon, Sir I.

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Salt, E. W.

Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Horsbrugh, Florence

Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Samuel, M. R. A.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Sandys, E. D.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Hulbert, N. J.

Savery, Sir Servington

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Hunter, T.

Scott, Lord William

Cox, H. B. T.

Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

Selley, H. R.

Cranborne, Viscount

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

Keeling, E. H.

Simmonds, O. E.

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Simon, Ht. Hon. Sir J. A.

Cross, R. H.

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A.(C'thn's)

Crossley, A. C.

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Crowder, J. F. E.

Kimball, L.

Somerville. A. A. (Windsor)

Culverwell, C. T.

Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Davison, Sir W. H.

Latham, Sir P.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

De Chair, S. S.

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

De la Bère, R.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Denville, Alfred

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Dodd, J. S.

Levy, T.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Doland, G. F.

Liddall, W. S.

Sutcliffe, H.

Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Drewe, C.

Lloyd, G. W.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Loftus, P. C.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Thomas, J. P. L.

Duggan, H. J.

Lyons, A. M.

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Dunglass, Lord

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Touche, G. C.

Eastwood, J. F.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Eckersley, P. T.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Warrender, Sir V.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Ellis, Sir G.

McKie, J. H.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Elmley, Viscount

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Wells, S. R.

Emery, J. F.

Macquisten, F. A.

White, H. Graham

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Mander, G. le M.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Everard, W. L.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Fildes, Sir H.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Findlay, Sir E.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

Fleming, E. L.

Morgan, R. H.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

Mr. James Stuart and Lieut.-

Furness, S. N.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.

NOES.

Adamson, W. M.

Barnes, A. J.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Barr, J.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Batey, J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

Banfield, J. W.

Bellenger, F. J.

Burke, W. A.

Cape, T.

Hopkin, D.

Riley, B.

Charleton, H. C.

Jagger, J.

Ritson, J.

Chater, D.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Close, W. S.

John, W.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Cocks, F. S.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Sanders, W. S.

Daggar, G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sexton, T. M.

Dalton, H.

Kelly, W. T.

Shinwell, E.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Short. A.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Kirby, B. V.

Silverman, S. S.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Kirkwood, D.

Simpson, F.B.

Day, H.

Lathan, G.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Dobbie, W.

Leach, W.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Leonard, W.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Ede, J. C.

Leslie, J. R.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Lunn, W.

Stephen, C.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

McGhee, H. G.

Thorne, W.

Frankel, D.

MacLaren, A.

Tinker, J. J.

Gallacher, W.

Maclean, N.

Viant, S. P.

Gardner, B. W.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Walkden, A. G.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Marshall, F.

Walker, J.

Gibson, R. (Greenock)

Maxton, J.

Watkins, F. C.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Milner, Major J.

Watson, W. McL.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Muff, G.

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Paling, W.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Parker, J.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Parkinson, J. A.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Pritt, D. N.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hollins, A.

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves.

First Resolution read a Second time.

MILK (PREVENTION OF MISLEAD ING DESIGNATIONS) BILL.
Mr. Macquisten: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the use of the designation pasteurised in connection with the sale of milk, to enforce the use of truly descriptive designations in connection with the sale of any milk heated above a certain temperature, to amend the Milk and Dairies (Amendment) Act, 1922, and for purposes connected therewith."
This is a simple little Bill, and I hope it will be accepted by the House. It is for the prevention of a misleading designation with regard to an important and necessary article of food. I wish it to be enacted that no longer shall the misleading word "pasteurised" be used as applied to milk. Pasteur was a great man, and in a way he made some great discoveries. He had, apparently, a peculiar taste, because I find in the "Encyclopaedia Britannica" that he once wrote home saying he was feeling far from well, and that if he could only get a smell of a tannery again he would be quite well. I do not think he made a great discovery. His process was to half-boil the milk with a view to killing the germs in it. The process kills both good and bad germs and half boiling it enables the milk to be carried long distances and the trade soon tumbled to the importance of that aspect of it. I do not think it made the milk any more sanitary. It may or may not have done so. Of course the milk was
2870
much more liable to infection when pasteurised.
I am not going fully into the merits of the matter now, but I contend that pasteurised milk is simply half-boiled milk cooled down again. Surely it would be much better, in the interests of every one, if such milk was accurately described. Lots of people think that pasteurised milk means milk got from good pastures. Some of them think of the twenty-third Psalm, which says, "In pastures green He leadeth me the quiet waters by." Others think that Pasteur is the French for pasture. I have heard people say that they think they are getting something very good if they get pasteurised milk. But calves cannot be fed on it, or if fed on it they pass away. I have here a letter which appeared some time ago in the "Daily Telegraph" by a Mr. James, of Laindon, Essex, in reply to another from a leading man in United Dairies wherein he says that the Aberdeen Research Society had conducted experiments on groups of rats, that those fed on fresh milk along with other food flourished and bred while those in whose diet pasteurised milk was included soon failed to reproduce their species. I recommend these facts to the Forestry Commission as a means of dealing with the grey squirrel. It will be found that great pressure is being put on the Ministry of Health to make the pasteurisation of milk compulsory. There is an enormous financial

2871
interest behind the demand. All the big combines are for it, because pasteurisation means that milk can be brought from far distant parts, and the combines hope that all the milk will be made to pass through their hands. A number of doctors, too, are talking about it. They then call it not "fresh" but "raw" milk. But they do not go to a butcher and ask for "raw flesh;" they do not suggest that it should be compulsory for the butcher to cook the raw flesh before delivering it. Fresh milk is the only milk worth drinking.
There is a demand made for an inquiry. I know the value of that inquiry. It is the small man who does not pasteurise his milk, who supplies the best milk, who does not pasteurise or half-boil and he will not be represented at the enquiry. I do not believe at all in an inquiry by the Ministry of Health. We know all these great ones from Harley Street. Dr. Cronin has just lifted the lid off Harley Street. We will have the big guns of the medical profession coming with tremendous testimony in favour of pasteurisation. For all the big money is behind it, but I want to protect the food supplies of the people from misdescription. If pasteurised milk or half-boiled milk is such a very good thing, let the medical profession urge their patients to half boil and cool it themselves; let them tell their patients never to use milk unless they have first half-boiled it. Surely it is far better to kill the germs just before use than to let the milk go to dairies where it is liable to be infected again after it has been treated.
Who is at the bottom of all this pretended demand? Always the co-operative movement or some big combine which hopes to benefit. It will be a co-operative who will move the rejection of this motion. They are the ones who insist on compulsory pasteurisation. Then you have some of the medical officers of health. I always regard them as the men who do not like to go into the open to work for a living but want a pleasant job with a pension at the end of it. They are not real doctors. As for the Ministry of Health, that is the body which all these years has tolerated kippers dyed in creosote. I have no use for them at all. We who have kept cows of our own know what fresh milk is, and we do not want this monstrosity, which is
2872
being pressed on us for a commercial motive. We want to see that the food of the people, instead of being disguised by any foreign name, will be such that mothers will know what has happened to the milk given to their children. Pasteurised milk may be good enough for diminishing rats, but we are not going to give it to our children if we can get pure fresh milk. Parents should know what they are getting. This putting of "pasteurised" on milk, this advertising that it is pasteurised and concealing what they have done, is very misleading. A great English firm of wine merchants some 50 or 60 years ago introduced Scotch whisky to the English. At that time the legal strength was 20 under proof unless it was disclosed on the bottle label that it had been reduced below that strength. The way adopted to get round the difficulty and make a bigger profit was to print in large letters on the label in red type "Guaranteed 35 under proof," whereas the label should truly have read "Well watered whisky reduced to 35 under proof." The boast was made that what had been done was a merit, not a fault, just as those who boil milk and call it pasteurised conceal what they have done by using the word "pasteurised." At present doctors who speak of raw milk difficulties say that if you use fruit juice, say the juice of an orange, with pasteurised milk, it replaces that essential part which has been removed by the half-boiling. I should like to have the views of the Co-operatives or the big combines if they were compelled to deliver an orange with every quart of milk.
There is a commercial motive behind the whole movement. I want to unmask it, to have a truthful description of what is actually done to the milk, so that the public may know what they are getting.
Mr. Leonard: I am surprised that the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) started by referring to a lack of proper sense of smell on the part of Pasteur, because it is not long ago since the hon. and learned Member elaborated greatly in this House on the smell of kippers, and he did not find much appreciation for his sense of smell. Health standards are very much more important than smells, and I want to contest the further progress of this Bill because of its incidence to the health of the people. I

2873
was surprised to hear the hon. and learned Member disparage the Department of Health and the health machinery of Britain which we have built up in this country, after centuries of fight, to get to the stage at which it is now. Pasteurisation is well understood by the people of this country. I am prepared to assert that not even one of the electors in his constituency who voted for the hon. and learned Member thinks that pasteurised milk means anything due to the pasture from which the milk comes. People have a pretty fair idea of what is meant. It is not boiled milk.
Mr. Macquisten: Half boiled.
Mr. Leonard: Even "half boiled" is not a proper description. Some hon. Members think that pasteurisation leads to the production of dirty milk or an attitude on the part of farmers that they can be lax because the milk is to be pasteurised. But that is not the case. Pasteurisation makes a higher standard of pre-treatment milk essential. I have here a report, showing results of the examination of samples of pasteurised milk in Glasgow. I find a statement that:
"Pasteurisation, however, cannot make dirty milk clean, and the need for satisfactory methods of production remains. Milk which fails to reach a certain standard of cleanliness is unsuitable for treatment in pasteurising plants. This was recognised by the Committee on Cattle Diseases of the Economic Advisory Council, which included among the recommendations made in its report the following:
'It should be a condition of the sale of any liquid milk that a fixed standard of cleanliness, or pre-pasteurisation standard, should be attained at the farm.'"
That indicates that pasteurisation even at the present time is raising the standard of milk production, and has not the opposite effect. There is also the statement of Lord Dawson of Penn in another place re pasteurisation:
"It is the business of a local authority to see that it is carried out effectively, and if it is carried out effectively, there is an overwhelming body of evidence, not confined to this country but shared by every civilised country in the world, that pasteurisation is an efficient means of preventing the conveyance of certain infectious diseases."
The Department of Health in Scotland conducted an investigation in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen, and found that 10 per cent. of the samples
2874
taken contained living tubercle germs. Glasgow is much worse; there it is actually 13 per cent. I regret that the suggestion is made that great pressure is being exerted by particular commercial interests in this matter. It is not the case. The greatest pressure in this matter is coming from the men who have been put into the job of maintaining the health of the people. It is the health organisations of this country that are endeavouring to do what we who oppose the introduction of this Bill propose to continue.
Let me refer briefly to what is more recent, the outbreak of typhoid in Bournemouth. There we have a seaside town which was affected by an epidemic. There were hundreds of cases of typhoid and over 50 deaths, and all were definitely traced to one milk dealer, who sold his milk raw. The Minister of Health visited the locality and said:
"Pasteurisation immediately cut the outbreak short, and it has since run a normal course and can now be regarded as over. The outbreak illustrates again the difficulty of ensuring, otherwise than by pasteurisation, a safe milk supply."
If that could happen in a seaside district, it is proof that much greater care is required in dealing with great industrial centres. They have to pay due regard to the difficulties which may be presented to them by their milk supplies. Poole and Glasgow have been seeking powers in this matter, but their proposals have been rejected, on the ground that the Government itself is inquiring into this matter, and a definite promise has been made that in the near future a Bill covering certain aspects, including this one, will be introduced. There is no reason why we should hamper their efforts.
The hon. and learned Gentleman speaks to a great extent for the producer-retailer, but the attitude of the producer-retailer is determined mainly by the lack of capital. That, however, is not a sufficient excuse to allow the death of over 2,000 infants annually in this country. Surely the difficulties are not going to allow us to forget what has been done in the matter. We have a part of the Dominions which has experience on the subject. I have here a report covering Toronto, and I find this statement:
"A study of 300 turberculous children showed that in the group under 14 years of age 15 per cent. of the extra pulmonary forms of the disease were due to the bovine form of tubercle bacillus. Without exception

2875
the children infected with this type came from districts in Ontario where pasteurisation was not practised. The history invariably revealed the fact that the child had always, or for some time, been fed on raw milk. This finding is confirmed by the fact that not a single case of bovine tuberculous infection has been encountered in the generation of children raised on pasteurised milk in Toronto where pasteurisation has been in force since 1915."
There you have a properly controlled experiment. I confess that the suggestion that there is any need to change the designation is untenable.
Finally, I would refer to the Government reports that can be obtained by the hon. and learned Member. They show conclusively that pasteurisation does not destroy the elements in milk that make for health. Then I would refer to a leading article which appeared in the "Times" on 28th April. It reads:
"Milk should therefore be pasteurised in such a manner as to secure the destruction of the living organisms contained in it. There is no doubt that this view represents the final judgment of bacteriologists and public health officers not only in this country but also throughout the civilised world. Indeed, dissentients from it are almost invariably laymen who attach too much importance to the idea that milk is likely to lose some of its virtue by being subjected to the influence of heat. There is no substantial body of evidence in support of that view."
Considering those expressions of opinion, I ask the House to reject the Motion for leave to bring in this Bill.
Question,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the use of the designation pasteurised in connection with the sale of milk, to enforce the use of truly descriptive designations in connection with the sale of any milk heated above a certain temperature, to amend the Milk and Dairies (Amendment) Act, 1922, and for purposes connected therewith,"
put, and negatived.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (MORECAMBE AND HEYSHAM) BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
Bill, as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Nigeria (Remission of Payments) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Birmingham Tame and Rea Main Sewerage District) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Wisbech Water) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Yeadon Water) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Clevedon Water) Bill,
Aberdeen Corporation (Water Gas Electricity and Transport) Order Confirmation Bill,
Elgin and Lossiemouth Harbour Order Confirmation Bill,
Paisley Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.
Local Government Superannuation (Scotland) Bill,
Cardiff Extension Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—
North Cotswold Rural District Council Bill [Lords],
Shoreham Harbour Bill [Lords]. without Amendment.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPERANNU ATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 214.]

PUBLICATIONS AND DEBATES REPORTS.
Second Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and an Appendix, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [20TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  REPORT [26 th July].
  Resolutions reported,
  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1937.
  CLASS I.
  1. "That a sum, not exceeding £244,016, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for the Salaries and other Expenses in the Department of His Majesty's Treasury and Subordinate Departments, and the Salary of the Minister for Co-ordination of Defence."

  CLASS VI.
  2. "That a sum, not exceeding £197,205 (including a Supplementary sum of £65,000), be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mines Department of the Board of Trade."
  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1937.
  CLASS I.
  3. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,388,266, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class I of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. House of Lords Offices

  …

  25,718

  2. House of Commons (including a Supplementary sum of £84,300)

  …

  …

  321,667

  3. Expenses under the Representation of the People Acts

  …

  …

  …

  195,000

  5. Privy Council Office

  …

  8,550

  6. Privy Seal Office

  …

  …

  2,407

  7. Charity Commission

  …

  26,613

  8. Civil Service Commission

  …

  11,672

  9. Exchequer and Audit Department

  …

  …

  …

  89,983

  10. Friendly Societies' Deficiency

  …

  …

  …

  5,542

  11. Government Actuary

  …

  22,219

  12. Government Chemist

  …

  53,641

  13. Government Hospitality

  …

  10,000

  14. Import Duties Advisory Committee

  …

  …

  40,729

  15. The Mint

  …

  …

  …

  90

  16. National Debt Office

  …

  2,658

  17. National Savings Committee

  …

  …

  …

  74,997

  18. Public Record Office

  …

  27,323

  19. Public Works Loan Commission

  …

  …

  …

  90

  20. Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

  …

  …

  32,899

  CLASS II.
  4. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,056,129, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Foreign Office

  …

  …

  84,956

  2. Diplomatic and Consular Services (including a Supplementary sum of £189,680)

  …

  …

  …

  844,997

  3. League of Nations

  …

  74,500

  4. Dominions Office

  …

  …

  38,031

  5. Dominion Services

  …

  …

  433,234

  6. Irish Free State Services

  …

  1,782,752

  7. Oversea Settlement

  …

  …

  26,750

  8. Colonial Office

  …

  …

  114,549

  9. Colonial and Middle Eastern Services including a Supplementary sum of £10,000)

  …

  …

  …

  718,167

  10. Colonial Development Fund

  350,000

  11. India and Burma Services

  …

  1,194,819

  12. Imperial War Graves Commission

  …

  …

  …

  393,374

  £6,056,129

  CLASS III.
  5. "That a sum, not exceeding £13,547,192, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Home Office

  …

  …

  …

  3,851,957

  2. Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  …

  …

  …

  48,659

  3. Police, England and Wales

  6,301,188

  4. Prisons, England and Wales

  584,266

  5. Approved Schools, etc., England and Wales

  …

  319,450

  6. Supreme Court of Judicature, etc.

  …

  …

  …

  90

  7. County Courts

  …

  …

  90

  8. Land Registry

  …

  …

  90

  9. Public Trustee

  …

  …

  90

  10. Law Charges

  …

  …

  83,421

  11. Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

  …

  …

  …

  8,276

  CLASS IV.
  6. "That a sum, not exceeding £40,065,927, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Board of Education (including a Supplementary sum of £177,000)

  …

  …

  31,538,959

  2. British Museum

  …

  …

  106,949

  3. British Museum (Natural History)

  …

  …

  …

  72,508

  4. Imperial War Museum

  …

  8,345

  5. London Museum

  …

  …

  3,764

  6. National Gallery

  …

  …

  17,187

  7. National Maritime Museum

  8,060

  8. National Portrait Gallery

  …

  6,034

  9. Wallace Collection

  …

  …

  7,402

  10. Scientific Investigation, etc.

  142,992

  11. Universities and Colleges, Great Britain

  …

  …

  1,255,000

  12. Broadcasting

  …

  …

  2,360,000

  Scotland.

  13. Public Education

  …

  …

  4,529,216

  14. National Galleries

  …

  …

  7,245

  15. National Library

  …

  …

  2,266

  £40,065,927"

  CLASS V.
  7. "That a sum, not exceeding £110,562,476, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Ministry of Health

  …

  16,093,846

  1A. Grants to Public Assistance Authorities (England and Wales)

  …

  …

  …

  10,000

  2. Board of Control

  …

  …

  94,771

  3. Registrar General's Office

  64,717

  4. National Insurance Audit Department

  …

  …

  111,560

  5. Friendly Societies Registry

  32,090

  £

  6. Old Age Pensions

  …

  …

  28,719,000

  7. Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions

  …

  …

  …

  10,000,000

  8. Ministry of Labour

  …

  14,338,000

  9. Grants in respect of Employment Schemes

  …

  2,550,000

  10. Commissioner for Special Areas (England and Wales) (including a Supplementary sum of £10)

  100

  11. Unemployment Assistance Board (including a Supplementary sum of £110,000)

  …

  …

  …

  33,370,000

  12. Special Areas Fund

  …

  2,500,000

  12A. Financial Assistance in Special and other Areas

  301,047

  Scotland.

  13. Department of Health

  …

  2,348,501

  14. Board of Control

  …

  …

  10,831

  15. Registrar-General's Office

  …

  11,913

  16. Commissioner for Special Areas (Scotland) (including a Supplementary sum of £10)

  …

  …

  …

  100

  17. Grants to Public Assistance Authorities

  …

  …

  6,000

  £110,562,476"

  CLASS VI
  8. "That a sum, not exceeding £26,654,368, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Board of Trade

  …

  …

  205,532

  2. Mercantile Marine Services

  266,131

  3. Assistance to British Shipping

  …

  …

  …

  8,510

  4. Department of Overseas Trade

  …

  …

  …

  312,942

  5. Export Credits

  …

  …

  90

  7. Office of Commissioners of Crown Lands

  …

  …

  24,574

  8. Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (including a Supplementary sum of £204,850)

  …

  …

  …

  1,571,901

  9. Beet Sugar Subsidy, Great Britain

  …

  …

  …

  2,249,900

  10. Milk (England and Wales and Northern Ireland) (including a Supplementary sum of £248,000)

  372,000

  11. Livestock Industry and Cattle Fund

  …

  …

  3,328,967

  11A. Land Fertility Improvement

  …

  864,100

  12. Surveys of Great Britain

  …

  218,875

  13. Forestry Commission

  …

  550,000

  14. Ministry of Transport

  …

  130,942

  15. Roads, etc.

  …

  …

  …

  14,500,000

  16. Development Fund

  …

  415,000

  17. Development Grants

  …

  580,830

  £

  18. Department of Scientific and Industrial Research

  …

  437,850

  19. State Management Districts

  90

  20. Clearing Offices

  …

  …

  90

  Scotland.

  21. Department of Agriculture (including a Supplementary sum of £18,880)

  426,854

  22. Milk (including a Supplementary sum of £10)

  71,110

  23. Fishery Board for Scotland

  83,080

  24. Herring Industry

  …

  …

  35,000

  £26,654,368"

  CLASS VII.
  9. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,445,451, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

  …

  …

  216,575

  2. Houses of Parliament Buildings

  …

  …

  …

  87,170

  3. Labour and Health Buildings, Great Britain

  …

  260,530

  4. Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

  …

  85,540

  5. Osborne

  …

  …

  …

  8,130

  6. Office of Works and Public Buildings

  …

  …

  …

  310,830

  7. Public Buildings, Great Britain (including Supplementary sum of £13,000)

  …

  …

  …

  1,142,680

  9. Royal Palaces

  …

  …

  83,160

  11. Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

  …

  …

  …

  151,040

  12. Rates on Government Property

  …

  …

  …

  944,435

  13. Stationery and Printing

  …

  1,111,981

  14. Peterhead Harbour

  …

  …

  21,000

  15. Works and Buildings in Ireland

  …

  …

  …

  22,380

  £4,445,451"

  CLASS VIII.
  10. "That a sum, not exceeding £27,387,625, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VIII of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Merchant Seamen's War Pensions

  …

  …

  179,997

  2. Ministry of Pensions

  …

  25,300,000

  3. Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions, etc.

  …

  …

  814,415

  4. Superannuation and Retired Allowances

  …

  …

  1,093,213

  £27,387,625

  CLASS IX.
  11. "That a sum, not exceeding £33,592,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IX of the Civil Estimates, namely:

  £

  1. Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues, England and Wales

  …

  …

  29,002,000

  2. Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues, Scotland

  4,590,000

  £33,592,000"

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1937.
  12. "That a sum, not exceeding £55,524,600, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of Match, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, namely:

  £

  1. Customs and Excise

  …

  3,873,100

  2. Inland Revenue

  …

  …

  5,323,500

  3. Post Office

  …

  …

  …

  46,328,000

  £55,524,600"

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1937.
  13. "That a sum, not exceeding £47,944,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services, namely:

  £

  3. Medical Establishments and Services

  411,400

  4. Fleet Air Arm

  4,200,000

  5. Educational Services

  207,500

  6. Scientific Services

  586,000

  7. Royal Naval Reserves

  373,300

  8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

  Section I.—Personnel

  8,583,000

  Section II.—Matériel

  8,878,700

  Section III.— Contract

  Work

  14,662,800

  9. Naval Armaments

  7,769,700

  11. Miscellaneous Effective Services

  812,600

  12. Admiralty Office

  1,459,000

  £47,944,000"

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1937.
  14. "That a sum, not exceeding £31,436,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Army Services (including Royal Ordnance Factories), namely:

  £

  3. Medical Services

  …

  …

  1,055,000

  4. Educational Establishments

  1,053,000

  5. Quartering and Movements

  1,909,000

  6. Supplies, Road Transport and Remounts

  …

  …

  6,005,000

  7. Clothing

  …

  …

  …

  1,565,000

  8. General Stores

  …

  …

  2,923,000

  9. Warlike Stores

  …

  …

  15,880,000

  12. War Office

  …

  …

  …

  1,046,000

  £31,436,000"

  AIR ESTIMATES, 1937.
  15. "That a sum, not exceeding £10,177,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Air Services, namely:

  £

  2. Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Supplies and Transportation

  …

  …

  4,476,000

  5. Medical Services

  …

  …

  439,000

  6. Technical Training and Educational Services

  …

  …

  741,000

  7. Auxiliary and Reserve Forces

  …

  …

  …

  1,360,000

  9. Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services

  1,429,000

  10. Air Ministry

  …

  …

  …

  1,250,000

  11. Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services

  …

  …

  …

  482,000

  £10,177,000"

  4.20 p.m.
  Sir Archibald Sinclair: I beg to move, to leave out "244,016," and to insert "£243,916."
  The first ground on which I seek to justify that action is that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence is not discharging, and is not even equipped to discharge, the full function of co-ordination which Parliament intended to attribute to him. It was not as a Minister of Supply that he was appointed, but as a Minister to co-ordinate policy and action in the sphere of Defence. The right hon. Gentleman was hardly given a fair start. He was appointed after the Defence plans, which he ought to have been chiefly responsible for making, had already been framed. Then his functions were kept within the narrowest limits that could be imposed without incurring the opposition of Parliament. The announcement made in another place by Lord Swinton that the new Minister would be the Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee and that they would be working to him the whole time—and that, he added, was the essence
  2900
  of the proposal—was whittled down to the statement in last year's White Paper that it was not proposed that the meetings of the Chiefs of Staff Committee should normally take place under his chairmanship.
  How have these arrangements worked out in practice? On the 17th of this month, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence delivered a speech, at Oxford, to the Royal Empire Society in which he stated—and none of us feels surprised at the statement—that he was sometimes terrified at the scope of the responsibilities which rest upon his shoulders. He explained how he had to discharge those responsibilities. He said:
  "I have no executive authority."
  He ought to have, and this House intended that he should have. He said:
  "I have no financial responsibility."
  He ought to have financial responsibility. Finance is in itself an instrument of war, and one of which the wise use is traditional in the history of our country's struggles. The strength and resiliency of British finance are tremendous, but not inexhaustible. If somebody does not exercise financial responsibility and allocate available resources between each of the Fighting Forces and between them and other Departments which are responsible for defensive measures, there is bound to be waste of precious financial strength and possibly failure to meet important defensive needs, because the Department which voices them is elbowed on one side by more powerful Departments. Therefore, unless the Minister possesses an important measure of financial responsibility, he cannot effectively co-ordinate the defensive measures which the Government are taking.
  "There is one unique feature about my Department,"
  the Minister said.
  "I have two Secretaries and three women clerks, and after 18 months I remain no larger than when I began. In that respect I am regarded by the Treasury as somewhat unique."
  No wonder the Minister is terrified at the scope of his responsibility if he contrasts it with the inadequacy of his means of discharging it. Every weekday £1,000,000 of the taxpayers' money is being spent on armaments. The Government have refused to adopt the recommendations of their own Royal Commission on the manufacture of and trade in

  2901
  arms, a decision against which we strongly protest, because we believe the country is behind us in our demand for the adoption of strong measures to eliminate excessive profits in armaments manufacture. This makes it the more urgent that the Minister should be armed with responsibility and power to stop the waste of taxpayers' money through profiteering, and secondly, to ensure that the money available is so allocated as to yield the highest return in defensive efficiency. If the Minister has no financial responsibility, it is time the House stepped in and appointed a committee to find out what is going on and to stop waste. For my own part, I feel confident that such a committee would report that the responsibility for the allocation of money spent on Defence ought to be attributed to the Minister, and that he ought to be given a staff adequate to discharge it.
  In asking for this Vote to be put down, we certainly hope to elicit information from the Minister as to the progress which is being made with the Government's programme of rearmament and munitions supply, but we also have another object, and as I know that many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen desire to speak in the course of the Debate, it is to that other object that I intend to devote the remainder of my remarks. I want the House and the Government to give their attention to an aspect of National Defence which is too much neglected in our Debates, and it is what is called, in common parlance, the "home front." Many hon. Members have dealt with different aspects of this problem from time to time. I have raised previously many of the problems on which I shall be speaking this afternoon, but the main case which I want to put to the House to-day is that these problems were never so important from the standpoint of National Defence as they are now, that they need, like problems of Imperial strategy, to be treated as a whole, and that unless they are so treated, they will tend to be thrust into the background by the more dramatic interest of the problems of the Fighting Services and by the prestige and influence of the Fighting Departments.
  We are apt to think of ourselves as an island, and it would be a profound mistake to suppose that we do not still enjoy many of the important strategic
  2902
  advantages of our island position; but it was the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence himself who said, in April:
  "It is obviously upon England, considered geographically, that any impact of invasion would first and chiefly fall";
  and Lord Baldwin said, in February:
  "Under any system of collective security, this country would be the first to stand the racket in the air."
  Moreover, while the last War in which we were engaged clearly showed that the general effect of modern weapons was to increase the advantages of the defence over the attack, it seems generally to be agreed that the lessons of more recent operations are that the advantages of the defence are still increasing and that war in the field tends more and more to take on the ghastly character of attrition. All of this suggests, first, that the ability to hold out physically, psychologically and economically will be the deciding factor in future wars, and secondly, that in considering the comparative importance of potential objectives, military or other, an enemy would be bound to consider whether attacks in the very earliest stage upon our important centres of communication, administration and industry would be likely to have decisive results upon our ability to defend ourselves or to help other States Members of the League against aggression across the seas.
  It seems to me utterly paradoxical that a number of well-intentioned people who profess belief in the League of Nations and in collective security, and who desire peace, should oppose the adoption of such measures as the Government have framed for the defence of the country against air bombardment. Because such measures cannot give 100 per cent. security against air bombardment, they object to them being undertaken at all. Cambridge scientists are being roped into the campaign to declare that gas masks and gas-proof chambers are useless. Everybody who fought in the War must remember that much more primitive measures than those now contemplated gave no small degree of protection against gas which, on many parts of the front, was in a concentration as strong as any to which civilians to-day would be exposed. Surely, scientists who want to preserve peace and discourage aggression and such outrages as the bombing of civilians and the use of gas, would be better employed in helping to increase the effectiveness of defensive

  2903
  measures than in trying to prevent their adoption. These means of passive defence are precisely those which should receive the most ardent support from all who hate war and believe in the rule of law and collective security against aggression.
  The piling up of offensive armaments by a single nation may well provoke an armaments race and may even precipitate the catastrophe of war. Measures of passive defence cannot have those results, because they menace nobody, and in so far as they are effective, they tend to avert the danger and tragedy of air bombardment by making it less likely to have any decisive effect on the course of a war. Nor is there any greater obstacle to the whole-hearted adoption of the principle of collective security in this country than the consciousness of our vulnerability to air bombardment. Everybody who hampers the Government in the adoption of measures of defence against air bombardment at home, is, consciously or unconsciously, encouraging militarists in other countries and weakening the League of Nations.
  Guernica was an undefended town and there are some lessons for the people of this country to be drawn from its fate. It was not a military objective. A factory, producing war materials and two barracks which lay outside the town were untouched. It was far behind the lines. Yet Press correspondents have described the hideous, logical, rhythm of the attack upon it. First there were hand grenades and heavy bombs to stampede the population. Then there were machine-guns, shooting and terrorising the people as they fled and driving them underground. Then heavy incendiary bombs, either wrecking the houses over the heads of the people, or driving them out into the open, where the fighting machines came along again and machine-gunned them afresh. Perhaps the most appalling feature, looking back on it all, is that nobody—no Government at any rate—protested. Everybody accepted it. That is war. Now it is true that in our present stage of development there is no conceivable defensive measure by which we can prevent any single bomber from getting through to bomb an open town, but towns in the Spanish war zone which are even lightly defended, have escaped the worst consequences of air bombardment. We
  2904
  can and must prevent a foreign enemy from making a Guernica of any British town, and the more efficient our defence, the less likelihood there is of any such attack.
  The Government have told us from time to time in the course of these Debates that they are depending mainly for the defence of Britain against foreign air attack upon the weight of the counterattack which they could bring to bear against the foreign enemy. The experience of the Spanish civil war tends to show that this is not a very effective form of defence. Moreover, as I pointed out during a similar Debate in March of last year, nowhere can our pilots find a target comparable in strategic sensitiveness with the south-eastern corner of England. Not if their machines could fly 2,000 miles without refuelling, could they find any comparable concentration of population, communications, markets, factories, and dockyards. They would have to fly a great deal further to find any target of importance in foreign countries than foreign pilots would have to fly in order to reach our incomparably more tempting target. Therefore, in so far as we rely for our defence upon counter-bombing, we must realise, not only that it seems ineffective in Spain but that geography imposes a heavy handicap on our pilots in any competition in destructiveness.
  Let us then ask the Minister what is being done in regard to measures of passive defence. My principal submission is that the problem is all one, but let me take first the military aspect of these measures of passive defence. Who is responsible for that? I understand that the War Office is responsible for the guns and searchlights, the Air Ministry for the fighting aircraft and balloon barrage, and the Home Office for the protection of life and property, the maintenance of order, and the prevention of panic. Surely, military measures of anti-aircraft defence should not—in sound theory at any rate—be divided between the Air Ministry and the War Office. Yet, if I were to advance that proposition, no doubt I should be told that the Air Ministry, which obviously ought to have supreme control, has its hands full, and that it lacks the men, and especially the officers and non-commissioned officers to take over the guns and searchlights. I may even be told that the last thing the War

  2905
  Office wants to do is to keep its share of a responsibility which merely swells its Estimates with demands for anti-aircraft material when it would rather spend the money on strengthening the field Army. Such arguments only demonstrate what, I believe, to be unfortunately the case, that anti-aircraft defence is nobody's child, and that nobody is giving it the thought and energy which are needed, if it is to obtain its due share of money and priority in competition with the striking forces of the War Office and the Air Ministry.
  Up to November of last year, only eight months ago, when rearmament had been in train for nearly two years, no anti-aircraft gun had been ordered more modern than the Vickers gun of 1918. Yet the German Army at last year's manoeuvres had at least three different types of anti-aircraft gun. We know how many squadrons of aeroplanes we have, though we do not know what proportion are in skeleton form. What we would like to know, if the Minister would tell us, is how many batteries of anti-aircaft guns we have; of what range and calibre they are; how many shall we have by March of next year; how quickly are they coming forward, and will the Minister be able to create a really effective system of defence round our great centres of population and of supply, with batteries of modern anti-aircraft guns, by next year?
  We know that recruiting has been one difficulty for the Territorial formations which are to be responsible for manning the guns and searchlights, and yet the Secretary of State for War said last Saturday that applications to join the anti-aircraft defence were anticipating the delivery by manufacturers of the equipment and the provision of the necessary buildings. On the same day some experiments were being carried out by the regular Army section of the anti-aircraft defences. According to the newspapers, they yielded very interesting and, in the circumstances, extremely creditable results. What are the circumstances to which I refer? Well, the equipment, guns, and height-takers were still of the old type, and apparently there is no certainty that deliveries of the latest gun will have been even begun by the end of this year. I should like to know whether the Minister can give us any information on that point.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us from what he is quoting?
  Sir A. Sinclair: I am quoting the Air correspondent of the "Sunday Times," who wrote an account of experiments conducted at Watchet on Saturday last. Can the Minister say when deliveries of these latest guns will begin and how quickly they will proceed? As for the Territorial anti-aircraft units at Weybourne, they are still practising, according to the same authority, with an old 3-inch gun designed for the Navy more than 30 years ago and afterwards adapted for anti-aircraft work in the last big War in which we were engaged. Again the provision of the balloon barrage appears to hang fire. We are told that we are buying a balloon which is less efficient than the balloon which the French have got. It appears that we are buying this balloon, which does not rise anything like as high as the French balloon, because it is considered adequate for our purpose. But is a balloon which can rise only, say, 10,000 feet, adequate for our purpose, when the French consider that it is necessary for them to have a balloon which can rise 20,000 feet? There is an obvious advantage on the side of the balloon which is able to rise to twice the height.
  Then what is being done by the research committee into the problem of anti-aircraft defence? Three years ago, I supported the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) in his demand that research should be undertaken into the problem of defence from the ground against aircraft attack and as a result of the representations then made by various hon. Members a committee was appointed. What is that committee doing? How often does it meet? What results has it achieved? Is it empowered to offer prizes to inventors? How many large scale experiments has it conducted? What measure of priority does it obtain for its important experiments? Have we obtained devices such as the grid searchlight, the infra-red searchlight, the electromagnetic detector which are in use in other countries? What is the position in regard to guns, balloons, and anti-aircraft equipment generally? Unless the Minister cart give us some information different from that which we have been able to glean in other quarters, it would appear that anti-aircraft defence is the Cinderella

  2907
  of the fighting Services and Departments. It is my contention that all these activities ought to be stimulated and co-ordinated by a powerful authority constituted for the purpose.
  Now defence measures of a civilian character are no less important than defence measures of a military character in strengthening our Home front, because our Home front is much more exposed to concentrated air attack than that of any other country, and they must be considered in relation to those military measures. There is, first, then the problem of what are known as air raid precautions. I have here a sheaf of the air raid precautions circulars which have been issued. They start on 9th July, 1935. That is two years ago, and the Government then declared that they would be neglecting their duty to the civil population if they failed to take these precautions. To-day His Majesty's Government are still at the stage of trying to pass on to the ratepayers the cost of defending our towns and cities against foreign attack. While this wrangling is going on they are still neglecting their duty to the civil population.
  Mr. Speaker: I may tell the right hon. Gentleman that on the question of defence from air attack as regards the civil population, to which he is now beginning to refer, that comes under the Home Office and could not be taken to-day on the salary of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence.
  Sir A. Sinclair: I, of course, respect your Ruling, Sir—you would not expect that I would do otherwise—but if you would bear with me for a moment, I think I could develop the argument in such a way as to show that aspects of what are commonly called air raid precautions will inevitably require the help and reinforcement of the fighting services to make them effective, and that it is absolutely vital that these precautions should be co-ordinated with the work of the fighting Departments if we are to have any effective system of defence against air attack.
  Mr. Amery: On the point of Order. Is it not the case that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence is entitled to co-ordinate, and is indeed responsible for
  2908
  co-ordinating, all aspects of defence, and that, in so far as this matter of co-ordination does not deal with the details of the administration of the Department, we are entitled to refer, for instance, to the financial aspect of the question, as my right hon. Friend did just now, and similarly, to the adequacy of the arrangements for passive defence, including the discipline of those who, organised under the Home Office, are under the operational control of the Air Ministry in war? I hope, therefore, it may be possible for you, Sir, to give a fairly wide latitude as long as only the co-ordination aspect is in question.
  Mr. Lees-Smith: Further to the point of Order. May I call your attention, Sir, to the fact that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence was appointed primarily to be in general charge of the whole of the operations of the Committee of Imperial Defence and that that Committee does include in its scope both the Home Office and other Departments and, therefore, does come for co-ordination purposes within the particular duties that the House has asked him to perform?
  Mr. Speaker: As far as I understand it, the duties of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence are not the same as what would be the duties of a Minister of Defence. They are two different things, and I do not think that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence could be held responsible for what is done by a body like the Committee of Imperial Defence.
  Wing-Commander James: Further to the point of Order. May I quote from a speech made by a Secretary of State in another place on 27th February, 1936, forecasting the duties that would be imposed on the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence then to be appointed? He said this:
  "Finally, it will be his duty, in the light of that experience, to make the Prime Minister any recommendations which seem to him wise for improving the organisation and efficiency of the Committee of Imperial Defence."
  I submit that that supports the contention of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith).
  Mr. Amery: Again on the point of Order. May I respectfully draw your attention to the duties of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence as laid down in the White Paper, namely:

  2909
  "the general day-to-day supervision and control of the whole organisation and activity of the Committee of Imperial Defence … consultation with the Prime Minister or other Ministers or Committees … and to make such recommendations as he thinks necessary for improving the organisation of the Committee of Imperial Defence."
  I submit that the whole problem covered by the work of the Committee of Imperial Defence falls within the duties of co-ordination of the Minister and, therefore, in so far as that co-ordination is concerned, it ought to be possible, at any rate, to touch upon the functions of all the Departments which play a part in defence.
  Mr. Churchill: Further to the point of Order. May I submit to you, Sir, that apart from the Prime Minister, whose duties it was desired to lighten when the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence was appointed, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence is the sole Minister who can speak on defence matters which involve one or more of the Departments concerned? May that also be taken into consideration in your Ruling, Sir?
  Mr. Speaker: The subject for me to give a Ruling on is getting rather wider than the one on which I pulled up the right hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair). I was only at the moment trying to prevent the discussion wandering into a discussion on the civil side of the question, as regards the protection of civilians, gas masks, underground shelters, and so forth. I do not want that to monopolise the Debate, because I do not believe that that is really the responsibility of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, but perhaps he will help me to decide.
  The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence (Sir T. Inskip): Undoubtedly the measures known as passive measures of air defence are now, and have been for some time past, discharged by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and the Home Office Vote would bear a sum for the payment of the expenses of the provision of the apparatus which is necessary, for the personnel of air-raid wardens, and so on, for passive measures. If I may respectfully say so, I recognise that any relation which the passive measures may have to the active measures, or to the general question of the allocation of expense, might fall within, and would fall within, my consideration from time to
  2910
  time. If I may make one respectful suggestion, it is that the right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) should not be permitted in this Debate to enter into the details as to whether, for instance, the proper number of gas masks, of bombproof shelters, or of air-raid wardens were provided, because these are matters on which I should be bound to refer to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  Sir A. Sinclair: If, Sir, you would allow the Debate to proceed on those lines which the Minister suggests, that would amply meet my proposal. I want, if you will allow me, to refer to bomb-proof shelters and things of that kind, but not in detail and not as to the numbers and where they are to be put. I realise that that is the responsibility of the Home Secretary, but the co-ordination of such measures so as to reinforce and strengthen the home front does seem to me to come within the purview of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, as Deputy-Chairman of the Committee of Imperial Defence. I would like to be able to deal with those aspects of the matter.
  Sir T. Inskip: On the point of Order. Perhaps I may say one other word. The co-ordination of these measures undoubtedly comes within my duties, as I understand them, but that does not mean that I devise measures. The responsibility for saying whether bomb-proof shelters are necessary, or how many of them are necessary, is the responsibility of the Home Secretary, and if and when he makes proposals which are to be considered by the Cabinet, inasmuch as they must be brought in relation with other aspects of defence, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence comes into the picture. It is not for me to devise the measures that are necessary, but only to co-ordinate them when measures have been considered and to see how far they will fall in with the general scheme.
  Mr. Churchill: On that point of Order. Do I understand my right hon. Friend to limit his functions entirely to the co-ordination of measures, and to exclude altogether from his purview the question whether he considers them by themselves useful or practicable measures?
  Mr. Speaker: If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness likes to pursue that subject to the extent that the

  2911
  right hon. Gentleman the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence has suggested to him, he is at liberty to do so, but he will see the difficulty. If he raises a question and the Minister has to say, "I am afraid I am not responsible," that is unsatisfactory, and I do not want that to occur.
  Sir A. Sinclair: I will try to do that and, of course, Sir, I shall submit myself to any further Ruling you may have to give, but at the same time I think it is in the public interest that we should have this opportunity of considering this vitally important aspect of national defence, and that it would be unfortunate if it went out from this House that there was no Minister who was willing to accept the responsibility for the co-ordination of these measures of passive defence with the more active measures of a military nature. I was remarking that for two years no action has been taken on these air-raid precautions except as regards anti-gas courses and ambulance services, but as regards bomb-proof shelters, depots, casualty-clearing stations, transport facilities, the protection of telephone exchanges, fire stations, and centres of administration and communication, all being matters which will be of vital importance to the effective prosecution of any defensive campaign—on all these lines nothing is being done in this country, although in foreign countries, as those of us who have visited them know, there is a great deal of activity on these questions.
  I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will tell us what plans are being made on these lines. For example, has the military aspect of the location of industry been studied and the appropriate plans made, or is the Department waiting until the Royal Commission reports in perhaps two or three years' time? In the meantime, is the Minister sure that there are not sub-contractors of sub-contractors manufacturing small but indispensable and extremely complicated parts of munitions or chemical products, even in the most dangerous zones round London and between London and the East Coast? Is the Royal Commission being asked for an interim report on the war aspects of the problem, or are the Government taking action independent of the Royal Commission? I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman in this respect that the Government ought to announce forthwith that
  2912
  there will be no State insurance against or compensation for destruction by air attack of any new place of employment established in certain vulnerable areas.
  Then I would ask whether any effort has been made to classify in the danger zones men and women according to their occupations, providing gas and bombproof shelters for those whose occupation makes their presence in those zones necessary and making provision for evacuating the remainder? Have the Government got plans for improving the exits from London and other cities, so as to facilitate evacuation, and for creating and provisioning camps and for providing transport to the camps and health and sanitary equipment, and for policing the camps and the cities and the communications between them? Has the Minister considered whether electrical power stations which are being replaced by the grid should not be kept up on a care-and-maintenance basis? Is anything being done with regard to the duplication of fire-fighting equipment and water supplies? Are measures being planned for making tube railways and tunnels, like the Mersey Tunnel, gas proof? Are plans being made for strengthening our medical and nursing services in times of emergency, and with this in view will the Government persuade the Home Office not to discourage men and women refugees with medical and nursing qualifications from settling in this country? What provision is being made to supply the large number of trained men who may be required to superintend the evacuation of citizens, to police communications and vital points, to police, organise, and provision camps, to repair damage by bombs, and to establish emergency services of transport, health, sanitation and food? All these services will require skilled, specially trained, and disciplined men. Are they being recruited, organised, and trained, and has the possibility been envisaged that much of this work may have to be thrown upon the Territorial or even the Regular Army? If so, are they being trained for it?
  A year ago, in a similar debate on the same Estimate, I dwelt upon the importance of the transport problem. Two-thirds of our imports enter from the east, and one-third from the west. I asked then, and I would ask again, what provision is being made for switching

  2913
  over from east to west? Something is being done to improve communications by road, but surely it is inadequate, especially as regards exits from our big cities? Nothing, however, according to my information, is being done to organise the transport industry against an emergency. No doubt the fighting departments have earmarked the lorries they would require. Has a census been taken of lorries for civilian purposes, for food distribution, evacuation and similar needs and have the lorries been classified into different categories so as to prevent vehicles being assigned to duties for which they are structurally unsuitable? Has transport been organised so that there is a staff to handle it in the different areas of the country. Has the importance of fuel storage for civilian as well as for military purposes been considered?
  There remains the vitally important question of food supply. I feel dispensed from the necessity of dealing with it because I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) will speak on it with unequalled authority. I would only say this: In the last War we held unchallenged supremacy on the surface of the ocean, yet we were reduced at one moment to a few weeks' supply of food and there was a real and definite danger of starvation. Now to the submarine is added the air peril to our merchant shipping in the narrow seas, and not only our merchant ships, but also our docks and storehouses will be open to attack. This is a problem which involves agriculture, transport, food storage and anti-aircraft defence, and it cannot be satisfactorily solved by a mere branch of one public Department like the new food plans Department of the Board of Trade.
  Now these are the dangers to which our people would be exposed in the horrible event of war. These are the targets which would be open to attack—docks, harbours, big granaries, centres of communication and administration and manufacture, especially, of course, armament manufacture. There is the still more gruesome possibility, following the Abyssinian and Spanish precedents, of the deliberate use of terrorism against the civil population. There is no ground here for panic. Not all of these objectives would be attacked, but the choice of objectives will not be ours but the enemy's and the best way of averting the danger is to prepare against it not only by counter menace
  2914
  which may not be effective, but by non-menacing measures of defence which will not only reduce the temptation to attack, but will offer no provocation. Protests and resolutions did not save the primitively armed Abyssinian tribes, nor the Basques, and they will not save our people from the disciples of Machiavelli. It is our business to prove to them that the bombardment of our towns and cities would be, if I may paraphrase Talleyrand, worse than an outrage; it would be a mistake.
  I have asked the Minister a great many questions this afternoon, more than I can expect him to answer at the end of this Debate; yet I believe they are all questions which are exercising the minds of men and women in responsible positions to-day. I hope they will receive attention and that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to answer some of them. I would, however, endeavour to sum them up in two main questions. First, immersed as we know His Majesty's Government are in the task of increasing the striking power of Britain's armaments, do they realise that military opinion is tending to attach increasing importance to the home front? In his last book, "Europe in Arms," Captain Liddell Hart says:
  "The vulnerability of the target counts for at least as much as the power of the weapon, and possibly counts for more."
  Air Commodore Charlton, in the "United Services Review" last month, says:
  "Even immense air superiority cannot alter a geographical situation."
  He goes on to say:
  "We are bound to come off second best in any air war based on parity."
  Have we yet attained parity? The second question is, if the Government accept the importance of measures for strengthening the home front, will they not realise that the Departments responsible will never be able either to frame them or to carry them out in competition with the older services if they are tackled piecemeal? If co-ordination is needed for the fighting Services, it is needed no less in the measures of passive defence If the vulnerability of the target counts for at least as much as, if not more than, the power of the weapon, we need the concentration of the best available brains on the problem of vulnerability. We need, therefore, not only a military general staff, but also an economic general staff. In the case of Achilles it was his

  2915
  heel that was vulnerable. In the case of the British Empire, the most exposed and vulnerable part of the body is the heart. The problem needs the exercise of foresight, organised thought and intensive study. I would, therefore, urge the Minister to constitute under his control a general staff which will carry weight and exercise authority in the councils of the Government, and will frame and carry out measures which will give us an effective and formidable system of defence on the home front.
  5.7 p.m.
  Mr. Lees-Smith: It is a fairly long interval since we last had a Debate on the Department of the right hon. Gentleman, and the House is under an obligation to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party for giving us the opportunity of discussing this subject. The right hon. Gentleman at the beginning of his speech raised the whole issue of the conception which the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence takes of his office. It is clear now that the Minister regards his duty as mainly that of generally supervising the work of the Committee of Imperial Defence and of generally easing its operations. He does not, however, regard himself as having any technical authority, and he does not provide himself with any special mechanism of his own. The Minister has defended his conception of his office in this House and in public by pointing to the immense results which have been attained in the last year, or rather less. Of course, very great results have been attained, but I am not sure that very much the same results might not have been attained without the actual presence of the Minister at all. I am not sure how far he with his conception of his office is responsible for the results, because there was a good deal of co-ordination in the Committee of Imperial Defence before. It had its Chief of Staffs Committee and the Joint Planning Committee, on both of which there were representatives of the Services, and to that extent there was co-ordination in certain directions.
  I would have expected, apart from any special Minister being appointed, that with this immense sense of urgency which we have had behind us during the last few months, and with this unlimited sum
  2916
  of money at the disposal of the Service Departments, there would have been a great elaboration of results and an intensification of activity along the most obvious and well established lines. I have listened to the Debates which led up to the creation of the office of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence. Those Debates assumed that he was to be appointed with a rather different purpose. The House felt there were certain great intellectual problems in the relationships between the three Services—what I may call problems of doctrine—and that those problems were not being dealt with by any machinery which existed up to that moment. If we judge the Minister by that test, by what I may call the test of the higher efficiency, I do not think that even he would attempt to make any reply. This particular aspect of the problem has not been dealt with, and I do not believe that there is any one man who can deal with that class of problem and also deal with the particular aspect of co-ordination to which the right hon. Gentleman has devoted his attention.
  Sir T. Inskip: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain?
  Mr. Lees-Smith: Yes, certainly; this is an introduction to what I am going to say. It is for that reason that I support the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Liberal party that there should be a special organisation, with a Minister under the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, who would relieve him of sufficient of his work to enable him to devote himself to one or the other of these problems. The Minister has asked me to explain, and I will give one or two examples. This is not a matter of theory. A Service Department which is acting on a wrong doctrine is like a man with a wrong idea in his head; everything will go wrong. As an example of what I might call perverted doctrine, I would say that for many years the Air Ministry presumed that attack in the air was so overwhelmingly superior to the defence that there was no effective answer to it. That was the doctrine at the Air Ministry; so much so that they made the Prime Minister get up to explain the doctrine from that Box. The Prime Minister told the public that the bomber would always get through. I thought at the time that that was one of the most misleading and mischievous statements—
  Mr. Churchill: The late Prime Minister modified that statement.
  Mr. Lees-Smith: The Prime Minister, I know, modified the statement. I was in the House when he modified it, in response to the kind of criticism that has been made in this Debate. The experience of the last War undoubtedly was that the bomber did get through, but got through at such cost and sacrifice that it ceased to come. During the late War no bomber came over London in the last six months. I think this defeatist view accounts for a good many of the deficiencies to which the right hon. Gentleman has called attention in his speech. I do not think that anyone who looks at the development of air warfare in the last few years can deny that our progress in machines, in bombers, has been far in advance of our progress in anti-aircraft gunnery, searchlights or sound locators. I should say that has been admitted over and over again in this House. It is still the position. If that idea had not been prevalent I do not believe we should still have a situation in which we are producing fighting machines, defenders against air attack, which are almost miracles of rapidity and efficiency, while at the same time the manning of the searchlights, without which at night the machines are absolutely blind, is only 30 per cent. up to establishment, and the condition of the searchlights is such as has been described by the right hon. Gentleman. Obviously defence has been neglected in comparison with attack.
  The question whether defence can or cannot conquer attack is vital to the whole strategic position of the country. Before the coming of the aeroplane we were at an advantage by comparison with nearby countries. Since the coming of the aeroplane we have been at a disadvantage, and that will be so as long as the attack is superior to the defence. If once the defence can overcome the attack this advantage should disappear and we should be back in the comparative security we enjoyed before air warfare came on the scene. That is why it has been a profound mistake, a mistake in doctrine leading to disaster in practice, that for all these years the development of defence has lagged behind the development of attack. We could have an interesting discussion on this subject, but it appears to me that now
  2918
  the defence is rather catching up with the attack. Statements have been made in the last year or two such as certainly would not have been made before. For instance, the right hon. Gentleman himself has reported that we are now satisfied that the capital ship can hold its own against air attack. That, surely, is an example of the way in which defence is catching up attack—if that is true. I remember the last First Lord of the Admiralty speaking with great confidence of the power to defend naval bases from air attack. A naval base the size of Portsmouth is half the size of London, and if we can defend such a considerable naval base we can defend a town. There is clearly a great change from the ideas which prevailed a couple of years ago.
  The right hon. Gentleman who leads the Liberal party has quoted what has been happening in Madrid. There is in the "Daily Telegraph" an interesting appreciation from a Germany authority of the lessons of air warfare in Spain. He states that, as a result of their own experience, they find that from only a few hundred yards up a target of less than 500 yards in length and 150 yards in breadth can be hit only by chance. That is a target the size of these Parliament buildings. That is a very different picture from what used to be drawn a couple of years ago. Then the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Liberal party quoted the experience in the camps at Watchet and at Weybourne, which has been described in the "Sunday Times" of last Sunday by its Air Correspondent who, I think it will be admitted, is usually very well informed. He says that at both those camps, one a regular camp and the other a Territorial camp, which were bombarded—apparently in the daytime—anti-aircraft guns scored one hit in 16. That is a statement which would have been incredible a year or two ago.
  Therefore in all these ways the position of air defence is far more comfortable than the Air Ministry gave us to believe until fairly lately, and it indicates that there has been in the past a lack of balance in the consideration given to this subject. I should imagine that the lack of balance still exists. I have here the current number of "Flight," with a very penetrating appreciation of the recent

  2919
  combined exercises round Portsmouth. While it is on the whole appreciative of the Services it does call the attention of the Committee of Imperial Defence to the fact that anti-aircraft searchlights and anti-aircraft equipment are not up to the Nth. We shall pay terribly in the first few days of a war. That certainly suggests that this is a subject to which the Committee of Imperial Defence should give its attention. I put these points of doctrine because we are dealing now with a Department which is a Department of thinking, distinct from the work of day-to-day organisation in a Service Department, but I am myself convinced that it cannot give to these questions the concentrated attention which they require so long as it is cluttered up with work in connection with day-to-day details of the other side of the work which the right hon. Gentleman has had charged upon him.
  The Leader of the Liberal party raised also the question of the system by which, while the fighting aeroplane in the air, such as defends London, for example, is under the Air Ministry, the searchlight and the anti-aircraft battery on which it depends are under the War Office. The right hon. Gentleman will know that I have raised this question two or three times in previous Debates, and I am not going to raise it again now, because I am pretty well convinced that the answer which he gives regarding the dispute over the Fleet Air Arm will give the answer also to this question and one or two other questions in which the Army is involved. He has said in reply to me that the Air Ministry are not making this claim. Of course they are not making this claim. If they did they would have to give up their claim with regard to the Fleet Air Arm. If he decides against the Air Ministry on the Fleet Air Arm he will find that the very doctrine which leads him to decide that way will compel him to give the Air Ministry the control of its own searchlights and anti-aircraft batteries, and he will find that the demand which is made by Sir Edmund Ironside that the Army shall control its own Army co-operation squadrons will have to be conceded.
  Before I leave the question of the air I should like to raise one point which has not been mentioned before but which has caused me some discomfort of mind. I
  2920
  refer to the future career of those in the Services, and especially in the Air Service. In ordinary times, three or four years ago, the Air Ministry had, I suppose, to find positions for about a couple of hundred short-service officers, and did so. When I was at an Air Force station not long ago I found myself surrounded by hundreds of young men of 19 or 20 years of age, the special entry men, who in four years will all be out of a job. I asked "What is going to happen to all these young men?" and the answer was "I suppose they will be on the Poor Law."
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Captain Bourne): The right hon. Member is on a subject which cannot be debated now because it is a question for the Air Ministry Estimates.
  Mr. Lees-Smith: Then I will leave that for another occasion. I will come to another subject on which I asked the right hon. Gentleman a question in the last Debate, and I should like to know what has since taken place. We have had discussions about the difficulty there is in obtaining recruits for the Army and the ease with which we obtain recruits for the Air Force and the Navy. I sometimes go down to Deal, where there are Royal Marine Barracks. Those barracks are 150 years old and have none of the amenities which the War Office has lately provided in its barracks, and yet the Marines never have the slightest difficulty in getting all the recruits they want. The reason for that is the simple one that the Marines are a long-service force. That is the whole difference between the Army on the one side and the Navy and the Air Force on the other. The mothers of this country are not going to allow their boys to go into a service which turns them out without any work at the age of 23 or 24. I doubt whether any of us would allow our boys to go into occupations of that sort.
  I bring this subject up for its own sake, and not because the question will be settled by the decision of another issue to which reference has already been made. That issue is, what is to happen to the Cardwell system? I shall not enter into the arguments, but undoubtedly this House has given its opinion. I have never heard a speech in favour of its continuance in the present form, yet there has been no particular response from the Departments concerned. I notice that a

  2921
  committee is sitting, and my criticism of that committee is the same as my criticism of the Committee of Imperial Defence. I have always felt that the right hon. Gentleman ought to provide himself with his own staff and that that staff ought to contain a number of civilian minds. That is a matter to which I wish to call attention. It may be true that the Imperial Defence College is producing a number of active, most able and vigorous young officers with the most progressive minds, and that if we knew them we should be reassured. I admit that the modern Army or Naval officer is, I imagine, a great deal more technically efficient than his father or his grandfather, but that is true of the whole of the present generation. They pass now at 16, examinations which some of us could pass only at 19 or 20. That is the general case. If there are to be great changes I do not believe you will get them from committees or bodies consisting of purely Service minds.
  It is perhaps wisest to state my opinion that, in spite of the undoubted advance of the young officer over the previous generation, if difficult intellectual problems—the Cardwell system involves difficult intellectual problems—have to be faced, I do not believe that you will get in the Services minds of the same capacity to solve them as you would get in civilian minds in comparable occupations. The Army deliberately insists upon drawing its officers from a very narrow circle, and the result is that it does not draw upon that same general area of competence as do the other Services. The Army's level of competence is not great. The Services, the Army in particular, are occupations in which you do not get frequent criticism. On the whole, the opinion of any man is rather better than the opinion of any other man one step lower in grade. They are not subjected to the criticism which we have to endure in this House every day, or the criticism which the right hon. Gentleman has to endure. I am sure that those occupations in which men live their lives subject to continual criticism result in the end in a higher standard. The great reforms, particularly m the Army, have been carried through m the past by civilian minds, usually in the teeth of military opinion. That is the lesson which I think the right hon. Gentleman should draw, and I should
  2922
  like him to furnish himself with minds of the type which I have just described.
  5.35 p.m.
  Mr. Churchill: I was very glad that the House so generally welcomed the Ruling of the Chair in favour of giving a broad latitude to a Debate upon the salary of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence. Now that there are three Arms and the civilian Departments are so closely involved in Defence, whether they deal with food or with the control of the civil population, it is especially important that there should be several occasions in the course of the year when the House can deal with the problem of Defence in its general and in its national aspects. Of course, it would be an obvious abuse of such a valuable opportunity if topics were debated in a way which would be much better suited to the special Votes of the various Departments concerned, and would be a great waste of so valuable an opportunity as is presented when the Minister comes forward and is able to speak with equal freedom on the whole of the three Services and on their inter-relations, as well as the general Defence problem affecting the civilian Departments.
  These are great responsibilities to fall upon my right hon. Friend, and his two private secretaries and three lady typists—very serious and grave responsibilities. I admire very much the phlegm and the physique which have enabled him to support them with so much composure and such an air of well-being. Still responsibilities are very often brought home to people when there are failures, and very often those failures are apparent only when peace-time policies come into contact with realities. I remember a story of Marshal Joffre who, after the War was over, was asked by a lady: "Now, tell me, Marshal, who was really responsible for winning the battle of the Marne? "The Marshal said, "Madam, that is a mystery which will never be solved, but I can tell you who would have been responsible for losing it, supposing it had been lost." I do not repeat that tale in any way to strike a knell which might echo in the ears of my right hon. Friend, but it is undoubtedly the fact that the House and the country look to him and to his office to give a general review of all questions of national Defence, and to present that view as the deputy of the

  2923
  Prime Minister and with the authority of the Government as a whole. I feel, like the spokesman of the Opposition, that we are all indebted to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) for enabling this Debate to take place. He has facilities, as the head of an organised entity, for bringing topics before the House of Commons which is certainly denied to any one on this side of the House except a Minister. Therefore we are all the more grateful to him when he gives us a day for the discussion of these extremely intricate and important questions, upon which modern thought is unhappily more and more concentrating.
  Upon this general question of passive defence and the relative power of defence and attack in the air, I would venture to express the hope that, important as it is, it would not be possible to find security merely by the development of passive defence. You cannot roof the world in, and you cannot provide protection everywhere. You must rely, in the first place, upon the deterrent of counter measures and upon the deterrent of large associations of nations which, if they are properly armed, will restrain an aggressor from a violent outrage from the air. You must rely upon the active function, but it is true that, all other things being equal, the nation which has good arrangements for dealing with the civil population under air attack will have a considerable advantage over the nation which has very small or poor arrangements for that purpose.
  I will venture to say, although it may not be a very popular thing to say, that I hope the Government, whose resources are so very meagre and slender and inadequate to the purpose in hand, will concentrate those resources first of all upon protecting the vital points of our warmaking capacity, our harbours, feeding points, power stations, munition factories and mobilisation centres, and so forth. It is only after those have been adequately provided for that the much larger and, in some ways, insoluble problem, under present conditions, of protecting the civilian population, can arise. I say "insoluble under present conditions," because wonderful ideas are alive in the field of scientific research. If one could be sure that 10, or perhaps eight, or even seven years of peace lay before the world,
  2924
  I would hazard the opinion which I have indicated before, that the ground will master the air, and that the problem of the marauding aeroplane, slaughtering indiscriminately the civilian population, not merely attacking focal points, but seeking to blackmail nations out of their liberties by an act of mass terrorism, that horrible apparition which has been reserved for our age to see, will have passed away as a menace, from the civilised world.
  Unhappily, those six, seven, eight or nine years are years of great anxiety and crisis for the world, and it may well be that the civilisation of the future and the continuation of our civilisation may depend upon whether or not peace can be maintained until the power of defending all communities from these indiscriminate and piratical attacks against the civilian population has been fully regained. Why, about 300 years ago, when a man was studying aviation and trying to make a flying machine—he was a priest—he abandoned those studies because, he said, "if ever this succeeds there is no city in any country which would not be an object of horrible assaults." What was regarded with horror in the Middle Ages, and certainly in the last 300 years, is now accepted as an arid commonplace by all the polite staff officers, and even by the politicians and philosophers of civilised Europe at the present time. We have certainly discovered this great secret of the air at a time when the human race has shown that its virtues do not unfit it to receive such a splendid gift.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness—we are on the same side today, and, therefore, I may depart from the Parliamentary convention and call him my right hon. Friend—asked, in the vary careful speech that he made, a large number of questions of the Minister for Co-ordination of Defence, and I hope that, even though those questions cannot be answered in debate, my right hon. Friend the Minister will go through them in the Report with his pencil and note all the different specific points which have been raised. I know what answer he is going to give to all of them. He is going to say that all these matters have been very carefully studied, that he has examined them all. I have not the slightest doubt that they have all been examined, but I must point out that there is all the difference in the world between studying

  2925
  a question, having a plan on paper or a report of a committee in a pigeonhole, and having any practical measures which will enable that plan to be put into operation in an emergency. There is a gulf between the two. Take the question of moving the population, or of opening the western ports for the feeding of this island. Plans may be made for that, but, unless you have a large number of people marked down in the different districts, with the full booklet of their duties, trained in them, rehearsed in them, each of them on the moment able to go to his place with an adequate staff of subordinates around him, so that the whole matter becomes vital and concrete, and passes out of theory into life and action—unless you have that, your paper scheme will never be any shield or protection, or at least, in all probability, not until after the emergency against which it is designed has either passed away or the attack has achieved its fell purpose.
  I do not propose to ask the Minister to tell us his scheme for dealing with the vexed problem of the Fleet Air Arm, because I understand that he has already made his plans and presented them to the Cabinet, and that it is not until Thursday next that he hopes to be in a position to make a statement. I trust, however, that he will be in a position to make a statement on Thursday next. It is really distressing that this matter should have flapped in the wind for so long. It is 18 months since it became a very prominent question in the House; it is 12 months, I remember, since I made upon it almost exactly the same speech that I am making now. Now we have come to a period of great and real emergency and of immense preparations, and there ought to be a decision. Four months ago my right hon. Friend, who had already been studying this matter for a long time, said he would set to work to give a decision. Now he has given a decision. It will be discreditable—I use that word deliberately—if the Government show themselves incapable of reaching a coherent decision on a matter of this kind after all this time, holding up the whole spirit and efficiency of these two Services in one very important aspect. I know that there may be an equipoise of argument, and an equipoise of influential people, but if you are not able to come to a decision and enforce your will and have it obeyed on one side
  2926
  or the other here, you may well find it very difficult to enforce your will on a well armed enemy, supposing, which God forfend, you should ever be called upon to defend us against one.
  Neither will I attempt to ask any question about the general problem of air defence or of the Air Service. I really do not feel, though I have spoken about it in the past, that I should like to discuss the Air Service except in a secret session, and, as that is not granted, I shall certainly not attempt at persent to enter upon a technical examination of that subject, quite apart from the fact that, if I went too far into it, you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, would very rightly correct me. But I would venture to say this, which is general and applies to all the Departments equally, and to the Minister who co-ordinates them. I am astounded at the optimism and complacency with which the position of our defence is now written and spoken of from one end of the country to another. I cannot see the slightest ground for the kind of statements which I notice in the newspapers. I read very carefully the statements made by Ministers on this matter, and I am glad to be able to confess that in most cases they seem to me, literally at any rate, to have a perfectly recognisable contact with truth. But the danger is that, while the statements made by Ministers are very carefully selected, and very often safeguarded by covering phrases and refinements which escape the public reports, a much broader effect is presented in the headlines of the newspapers, and is definitely misleading. For instance, the other day my right hon. Friend made a statement in which he indicated—I am not attempting to quote him verbatim—that in one large sphere of his production he had reached the peak of production, that the factories were proceeding at their full limits in accordance with the war programme—
  Sir T. Inskip indicated dissent.
  Mr. Churchill: My right hon. Friend is quite right to state his case at a minimum, but, if he said anything like that, I must point out that we do not know what is the standard at which he is aiming. We are not being told what are the forces which are being prepared, or the scale, except only in respect of the air programme, and, consequently, as we do not

  2927
  know what is the goal, or what is the prescribed speed and what are the stages by which we are to reach that goal, we naturally cannot judge at all whether the progress is satisfactory or not. It is no doubt true that we are, as I think my right hon. Friend did say, getting stronger every day. That may be the cause of his buoyancy, of his Coué-ism. He is able to rise in the morning and say:
  "On every day, in every way, I get better and better."
  The question is, how much? In these matters quantity counts enormously, and, of course, everything is relative. While my right hon. Friend is marshalling his forces and increasing ours, the tremendous work of armament is proceeding abroad. We have forgotten all about that. I think it was 12 months ago that I pointed out that German was spending at the rate of £1,000,000,000 a year. All that is going on. Here and there there may be some impediment through lack of raw materials, but the whole process is continuing. The great hammers, as General Goering has said, are descending ceaselessly; mountains of ammunition and machine guns and cannon of every kind are flowing out. Ever larger armies are being raised, and behind those armies stand enormous martial populations, all under discipline, all armed, but not yet formed into regular organised units. Pray do not let us forget that, while we ourselves are making great exertions, the whole vast process of Continental rearmament is still at its fullest possible compass.
  I read in the papers the other day that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had stated that our Air Force was comparable with any other Air Force. There was a tremendous headline. I rubbed my eyes at such a statement. But, when I came to look at what my right hon. Friend had actually said, I saw how carefully he had guarded himself, and that before this phrase there were two other phrases—in the quality of its machines and of its pilots our Air Force was comparable with any other Air Force. That is a very different statement. It is true that there is the factor of numbers, and, of course, numbers do count in the horrid sphere of force. All this I say in order to emphasise the necessity that Ministers should not in any way encourage newspapers to put a gloss upon their statements—in fact they should discourage
  2928
  them from putting a gloss upon their statements, which, read in their literal text, may possibly be justified.
  I myself have been a sufferer recently from the love of newspapers for broad effects. [An HON. MEMBER: "All your life."] I do not at all dislike the idea of broad effects, but erroneous effects are to be deprecated. The House will remember that last week I raised the question of the guns said to have been mounted at Gibraltar. I dare say it will be within the recollection of the House that I put the whole matter interrogatively, asking, is it true that there are guns there which could do this? And I said that, if there were guns in these positions, then the consequences would be so-and-so. But the "if" and the interrogative character were swept away, and what I have seen is a statement that I declared that there were guns in these positions which could do these things. I never said that. I want, however, to know a little more about the position there, and about those guns. We had a reply from the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, but the hour was late and the Noble Lord was not able to give any reasonable account of the position. We ask what guns are there; where are they; where did they come from; what is their purpose; can they in fact command the harbour; can they in fact—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not see how the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence can possibly answer these questions.
  Mr. Churchill: I may point out that the Service Minister could answer them, because in the previous Debate an answer was given by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on information supplied to him by the Service Department, and, as I understand it, although it is not the direct responsibility of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, he is, as it were, the conduit through which the information would naturally reach the House, and more than one Service is concerned. The Army is concerned, the Air Force is concerned, and he is the only Minister to whom we can turn unless we were to trouble the Prime Minister, and, after all, we do not wish to throw a technical burden upon him. The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence is the only Minister who can speak upon that subject, and I understood from my right

  2929
  hon. Friend that he would give us some information upon it. Therefore, without in the slightest degree going against your Ruling, I would in the most general terms, dealing entirely with the general aspect of the Mediterranean, say, if there is any idea that the mounting of guns to dominate or cover the Straits of Gibraltar is not a matter of first consequence to us, that it is. You could hardly have anything of greater importance to the British State and to the general problem of British Imperial defence. I should like to know whether these guns are primary or secondary guns. I would not press the Minister to go into the exact calibres and ranges and that sort of thing, but we want to know whether in fact very heavy cannon have been mounted, larger than are required for the exigencies of the Spanish war, upon both sides of this narrow strip of water between Europe and Africa which gives us our entry into the Mediterranean. We ought to know about this, and I trust we shall be given some more precise information than was imparted by the Under-Secretary the other night.
  But it does not stand alone. There is the general question of our position, which I am sure the Committee of Imperial Defence must often have studied under the right hon. Gentleman's chairmanship—the general question of what is happening in the Mediterranean. It is not only Ceuta and Algeciras Bay. There are the Balearic Islands; there are the conditions that are being established at Malta, placing the whole question of the defence of that island in a new light. There is the small rock of Pantellaria which is being fortified and made a powerful air base—
  Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is now discussing the whole question of naval and military policy, which is entirely outside the province of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence.
  Mr. Churchill: I really do not know to what Minister I should address myself or to what Minister the House is to look upon a question which involves the Navy, the Army and the Air in equal proportions and which also affects the great question of the food supplies which hitherto we have drawn through the Mediterranean. But, naturally, in view of what you say, Sir, I shall not persist in the matter, save by way of illustration.
  2930
  I merely wish to say that these guns at the mouth of the Mediterranean cannot be considered apart from the whole process of fortification that is going on right to the Eastern end of Leros and Rhodes, right down the Red Sea at Massowah, the whole of this creating day by day and month by month a position that we have never had to face before. I want to know what is the purpose of all this. I feel that the House of Commons and His Majesty's Government should address themselves to these matters with the greatest possible earnestness. We have not only interests of a vital character in the Mediterranean. We have friendly Powers to whom we are bound in obligations which are precious to us in the Mediterranean—Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey, Powers of the greatest consequence to us. I trust that we may hear from the Government some further statement on the facts, and also what they propose to do in relation to those facts while time remains.
  6.4 p.m.
  Sir Arthur Salter: I think the Debate has shown quite clearly that the task of the Minister in co-ordinating the Fighting Services on the one hand with civilian measures on the other is quite as important as his task in securing co-ordination between the Fighting Services themselves. I wish to speak of one particular civilian measure which is interlocked both with naval protection, air protection and with the problem of internal transport. I refer to the scheme for dispersed inland storage of essential foodstuffs. This, of course, is only one example of the measures for the protection of the home front, but it is, I believe, of particular importance. I am emboldened to speak of it to-day partly because of the experience I had during the War, and partly because the Minister, in referring to this proposal, associated it with my name. In the first place, may I say as clearly as possible that I am not advocating this proposal as in any way an alternative to naval strength. I recognise perfectly that, if an enemy is in a position to blockade us, neither food storage nor increased home production of food, nor anything else, can save us from destruction. But in the last War we had command of the sea certainly as complete as we can ever hope to have, and this command of the sea did not save us, and cannot in future save us, from irregularities in supplies and

  2931
  from a very serious danger both of food shortage and, through ship shortage, of deficiency in all our great supply services.
  This subject has been referred to in two important Debates, this year and last year, in another place. There has been no comparable Debate, I believe, in this House, but attention was drawn to the subject in Debates elsewhere, and I ventured myself to initiate correspondence in the "Times" which was supported in the leader columns and which attracted a certain amount of attention last year. Shortly afterwards the Government established their Food (Defence Plans) Department. But a little time after that, when one was hoping that they were really proceeding with this proposal seriously, the right hon. Gentleman made a reference in the Debate of 18th February which seemed to me rather ominous. He said, referring to this proposal for food storage:
  "Hon. Members have little conception of the complexity or expense of the question. If anybody reflects on the cost of buying, as suggested by Sir Arthur Salter, 12 months food and the cost of providing storage facilities, he would not wonder that the programme is so expensive."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th February, 1937; col. 1425, Vol. 320.]
  Similarly in questions afterwards the right hon. Gentleman, if not quite so definitely negative and discouraging, has certainly been very reticent. While therefore I believe this to be a very vital question, I do not feel that we have any real assurance that it is being secured its adequate place among the general defence plans of the country.
  I do not, indeed, draw conclusive inferences from what the Minister has said or has not said. I can quite understand why he should be reticent as to the particular character of the plans that he may now be making. I am really more anxious, because of one very simple fact. The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence is, of course, in a certain sense in the position of an arbitrator between great competing services and interests with claims on his attention. As regards the three fighting Services, each of them is a great strong fighting department with strong professional traditions. On the other side, food storage is represented by the latest and smallest of our Departments, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman's own Department,
  2932
  and indeed by what is only a civilian section of a civilian Department. We all know that any arbitrator who tries to do justice between competing claims which are supported by organisations of very unequal strength has special difficulty in securing justice and a due balance. One has to consider that when on the one hand the Minister is pressed by the three fighting Services, while on the other hand, food storage is advocated by this small civilian Department, it is only too likely that the latter will not get adequate consideration or be developed upon a sufficient scale.
  This, I suggest, is the more the case because there is no great business organisation or interest that can correct that want of equipoise. If the Minister turns to business experience he finds that the great importing merchants think, naturally, in terms of storage at the ports, exactly where storage is most vulnerable; while the great agricultural interest thinks, naturally, in terms of increased home production. That, however, again is a less efficient defence than food storage of the kind that I advocate, namely, dispersed inland storage at places carefully chosen so as to be, on the one hand, convenient for transport and, on the other, as little vulnerable as possible.
  The Food (Defence Plans) Department is the youngest Department. It is the Cinderella of Departments. It is not often that Cinderella has the happy experience in real life that it has in the fairy stories. I am asking that the right hon. Gentleman will fulfil the role of fairy godmother. Or if he thinks that role is not in all respects appropriate to him, if he would prefer, as well he may, a Biblical role as more suitable to him, I would refer him to the example of Joseph. Joseph was faced with a rather similar problem. He was confronted with a vision of lean kine and defective corn. It was a problem of a grave shortage for a limited period—very much like our war problem. He did not devote himself to fattening the kine and growing extra corn. What he did was to collect corn, and store it in granaries. That is precisely what I am asking the right hon. Gentleman to do and on a very substantial scale.
  Why is this need so great? I do not propose now to advertise any deficiencies by speaking of any that might otherwise be unknown. I are content to refer to one or two statements made by Ministers,

  2933
  or very widely known through public statistics. Let me take in turn our main foods. We all know that our wheat supplies are very small. The Lord Chancellor, and Lord Runciman, when in this House, referred to them as being three months supply. But that was the figure for the average supply, and the actual at any one moment is very often a great deal lower than the average. The Home Secretary, when First Lord of the Admiralty, spoke of our only having, I think, six weeks food supplies in the country. I think that was inaccurate, and too gloomy a view of the situation. But it is probably true that very often our wheat supplies are so low that we are only separated by six weeks stocks from the point at which the Government would be compelled to think seriously of making terms with the enemy, because of the threat of imminent starvation. That is a very dangerous situation, so dangerous that during the last War, in spite of the immense difficulty that we were experiencing through shortage of sea transport, we were compelled, not having stores that we could draw upon and so relieve the situation, actually to increase our stocks during the conduct of the campaign. If you have wheat you can ration and deal with the rest. But it was only because we managed to build up by a tremendous effort sufficient supplies to avoid bread rationing that the rest of the rationing system worked well during the last War.
  In meat, it is true that we produce more than half of our consumption al the present time, but we do it at the cost of importing a very great mass of feeding stuffs, so that it does not relieve us of our dependence on foreign imports to anything like the extent of the food value of the meat itself. In spite of the immense sums, and certainly excessive sums, of money we have devoted to the encouragement of the home production of sugar, we still depend for three-quarters of our supplies of sugar on imports. If we turn to other foodstuffs, fish we produce at home, but who knows whether we could produce it equally under war conditions? Of fruit, we import three-quarters and have very few stocks. Of eggs, we produce perhaps rather more than half, but again we have to import feeding stuffs for the purpose. It is only really in potatoes that we produce anything considerable here in the
  2934
  way of food supply without having to import to do so. We all remember that in the last War this situation led to very great danger. The situation is, if anything, more serious now because the population that we have to feed is greater, we have fewer merchant ships to transport supplies, and we have added to these difficulties the greater danger of air attack upon shipping.
  What is the character and scale of the plan I would suggest? I should like to see dispersed inland storage of essential foodstuffs equivalent to a year's consumption of wheat. I say "equivalent," because the whole of the storage need not be in actual wheat itself, as I will explain in a moment. The supply, of course, could be worked up gradually, starting with six months, and working up until it reached a year's stock. I do not suggest storage at the docks, which is in the form of storage that might first be considered since the silos and the actual facilities are there, because I do not think that we dare do that in view of the danger from air attack upon the ports. Nor do I suggest "stockage" at the farms, which farmers would perhaps be inclined to suggest. It would be immensely difficult to work and very unreliable if called upon in an emergency, and very inconvenient in relation to transport and collection. Any one who had anything to do with the distribution of food in the last War knows how difficult was the collection of small stocks at the farms. On the other hand, I do not suggest the purchase of a year's consumption of wheat. Obviously, that, particularly in the present state of the market, would mean the complete dislocation of prices, and is clearly impracticable. But, in the first place, it is not necessary to make a year's purchase at once, and in the second place, it is not necessary to improve the wheat position by only storing wheat, and for this rather technical reason. I am assuming that we retain the command of the seas, and, therefore, that we shall, in any case, be importing a great deal. If that is so, the best system, I suggest, if you are going in for storage, is not to attempt to store a balanced stock of all essential foodstuffs. It is better to consider the essential foodstuffs which store most easily and store a disproportionate amount of them, because if

  2935
  you do that you are enabled to relieve tonnage when war comes and concentrate upon importing the food of which your stocks are less adequate. For example, sugar, I believe, stores a great deal better than wheat. I would therefore recommend to the Minister that he should store more than a normal proportion of the year's consumption of sugar and treat that as ensuring wheat. He can then be certain that having an ample store of sugar at the time in the country, he can immediately, when war comes, take every ship that would otherwise be employed in bringing sugar, and bring wheat instead. That does not dispense with the storage of wheat, but it means that it is probably advantageous, because sugar stores better, to store a larger proportion of the country's consumption of sugar than of wheat, and then to consider that as wheat storage and leave the persons controlling the ships to divert all ships from sugar to wheat when war breaks out.
  I have said something about the need and the kind of plan which I personally advocate. May I strengthen my appeal by referring briefly to the alternatives? The first obvious alternative that occurs is the increase of home production. I am not now going to criticise the Government measures with regard to agriculture—there are other reasons for increasing agricultural production in this country—but I do think that we must realise that, as a contribution to the Defence problem, these measures can do very little, and indeed British agriculture as a whole does a great deal less than is commonly realised, and for this reason. All the food that we produce in this country does not greatly exceed, though it somewhat exceeds, the quantity of feeding stuffs and fertilisers which we need to import in order to make that production possible. Consequently the net contribution towards our essential weakness, of a dependence upon imports, is very little reduced by British agriculture. This dependence is to some extent reduced by some of the Measures now being undertaken by the Government. I think that measures to increase the fertility of the soil would be of some help in a long war, but it is only to a very limited extent that you can during war increase your production by ploughing up land. It takes a long time, and you would not
  2936
  get your first results for about eight or nine months or full results for something like a year and a-half. So, too, if you take other proposals. Take, for example, the increase of cattle. Meat on the hoof is a form of storage, but it is an extremely expensive form of storage. It is not only expensive to start but it is expensive when war comes because you have to feed your cattle all the time. If I may use an analogy, it is rather like depending for a need of quick locomotion that does not arise for some time ahead—you do not know quite when—upon a horse which is consuming oats while it waits, rather than upon a motor car, which you put into a garage and which does not consume petrol until it is actually used.
  I want to emphasise this point because it has very great importance upon the relation between agricultural policy and Defence. During the last War the British Government started a scheme not only for ploughing up land, which had its advantages, but also for increasing the breeding of pigs. That scheme was not only not a help; it was a definite hindrance. I speak from direct personal experience in this matter. I remember that when I was managing the allocation of ships I was asked for an increased importation of maize. I asked the reason for it, and I was told that it was for the purpose of feeding the pigs, whose numbers had been increased by the Government's scheme. I made a rapid calculation and it was evident at once to me that I could bring in the pig ready for consumption as pork or bacon with very much less shipping tonnage than I could bring in the maize required to convert the young pig into the mature pig. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) was then Minister of Munitions, and I wish he were now in his place, because I well remember having some considerable dispute with the Department that wanted maize for these pigs. I said, "Let us go and talk to the Minister of Munitions." We did, and as I have not been able to get the right hon. Gentleman's previous permission, I do not think that I had better quote the vivid terms in which he expressed his views.
  The Minister, in referring to the proposal of food storage, made special reference to costs. The cost would indeed be considerable but it would be very small

  2937
  in relation to the advantages to be obtained and in relation to any other alternative.
  I will quote something that Lord Astor said in another place in July of last year which gives some idea of the relative value of increasing wheat production and of storing wheat under such a scheme as I propose. Lord Astor said:
  "We grow roughly 24 per cent. of our wheat and import 76 per cent. If we were to double our wheat production, we should still have to import over half. We are growing 24 per cent. because of the wheat quota. The Government lave increased the home production of wheat from 16 per cent. to 24 per cent., an increase of 8 per cent., at a cost of about £6,000,000 or £7,000,000 per annum. We could, I believe, store a whole year's wheat supply for an annual expenditure of something like £2,500,000."
  Lord Astor was not only then speaking with his great personal authority but as the result of a very careful inquiry into the whole agricultural position by a number of experts, the results of which has been published in a book called "The Agricultural Dilemma." In this book the further comment is made that if this reserve were drawn on to the extent of one-quarter in each year of the war,
  "it would enable us to sustain a four years war while adding to our available supplies more than would be the case by the doubling of our annual home production. To attempt to double our home production would be so costly as to be quite impracticable."
  If the House will compare the figure of £6,000,000 or £7,000,000, for an increased production of 8 per cent., with the results obtained at a cost anywhere near Lord Astor's estimate, they will see how advantageous is the proposal which I am now advocating. Lord Astor said £2,500,000. I have another estimate of £3,000,000. I think that both estimates are now rather under the mark. But supposing it is £5,000,000, even then, I think, the advantages are overwhelming in comparison with the cost. When I say £5,000,000, I mean per annum. I am not including the first purchase of the supplies, nor am I including the cost of building granaries because they are each a capital cost. They are indeed a much more genuine capital expenditure than the greater part of objects on which we are spending the £80,000,000 a year, which under our present financial arrangements we treat as devoted to capital purposes.
  2938
  I will not trespass upon the House more than another moment or two, but I would like to summarise the great advantages of this proposal, which must be fairly set against the considerable but not excessive cost that would be involved. Some of these advantages are cumulative and some alternative. First of all, it would enable us, if we had a long war, to fight that war for several years undisturbed by the terrible prospect of imminent starvation. It would, in the second place, relieve our shipping very greatly indeed. One-fifth of our shipping is devoted to bringing in cereal imports; this is equivalent to the continuous employment of about 500 large ships. There would, too, I suggest, be a very great relief to the Navy, because beyond complete command of the sea it is a very great additional responsibility to have to defend an immense mass of shipping in detail and on every route. In particular, it would be possible to choose the routes that are less dangerous rather than being compelled, as in the last war, to choose at any cost in danger the routes which are quickest and shortest. We had to send ships through the Mediterranean at a time when one ship in four was being lost there, because we could not afford the time to send them round the Cape. We may have even stronger reasons next time for sending ships by the longer route. If we calculate the cost of providing the extra naval ships for detailed and dispersed protection of shipping on the one hand and the relief of the strain which would follow from the knowledge that there was something like a year's supply of wheat or its equivalent, everybody would realise that in value we were getting full money's worth in food storage.
  The plan has also the great advantage that you would have no offset in the way of provoking competitive armaments. Food storage is 100 per cent. defensive. Extra cruisers and destroyers, however defensive may be their purpose, may be used for offensive purposes, and they will tend to increase the competition of other countries, which constitutes our danger. That is not true in any degree whatever of a purely pacific measure such as food storage. At the same time it saves the additional provision of protective craft which would otherwise be necessary, and which would not in any case give the

  2939
  same measure of security. Moreover as the right hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) has pointed out, a measure of this kind would reduce not only our danger in war but our danger of war, because our vulnerability through our dependence upon foreign imports of food is perhaps the greatest temptation to countries with aggressive tendencies.
  One further advantage, and in some respects the greatest, from this Measure is that it would relieve the Government of the day, when war comes, of the very grave danger of panic decisions during the conduct of the war. Such decisions are always liable to be taken if there is an imminent danger of starvation. In the last war I was the Director of Ship Requisitioning. It was my duty not only to requisition shipping but to allocate ships to the different services. Consequently I felt perhaps more than any one else in the country in the course of my daily work the continuous impact of the submarine losses. I wish I could convey something of the environment in which decisions had to be taken at a time of a serious shortage of ships and with low stocks of all-essential supplies. The responsibility is terrible and the danger is greater because at first it may only be realised by those who are immediately concerned with the control of ships. Then among the higher authorities there may be a rapid change from complacency to panic.
  Viscount Runciman, who occupied during the War the position which he occupied in the Government until a few weeks ago, would remember well that grave as the shortage of shipping was, the picture of it presented to the Government sometimes exaggerated it. For some time the danger was not taken seriously enough and then, after a sudden burst of submarine losses, or when it was realised suddenly how low was a particular stock of an absolutely vital foodstuff, so serious were the representations made to the Government that they might well have been led into panic decisions of the utmost gravity, affecting the character of our operations in France and the continuance of some of the distant expeditions.
  When in the middle of a great war only a few weeks' supply stand between the population and starvation, there must
  2940
  always be a danger of panic decisions. We have to deal with the menace at sea, and with the terror by night. But above all we have to do what is humanly possible to supplement the naval protection of our imports by some measure for securing an adequate stock of the most essential foodstuffs. We need above all to reduce the very grave risk that during a war the Government of the day may be driven to panic decisions, perhaps by an exaggerated view of the dangers at a particular moment. For that purpose I suggest that in value for money there is nothing comparable with the measure of safety that can be obtained by the provision of the food storage which I venture to suggest.
  6.35 p.m.
  Wing-Commander James: The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) will forgive me if I do not follow him on the particular line that he has taken. I want to come back to the general Debate. This Debate is of great importance and it is to be hoped that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence and the Government will take cognisance of the points of view that have been expressed in all three opening speeches, and of the dissatisfaction which is evidently felt in all parts of the House at the narrow interpretation which the Minister appears to have placed upon his duties. It is upon that particular point that I desire to speak. It was in November, 1933, that I first presumed to raise the question of the need for closer co-ordination between the three Defence Services. I had previously done all that a private Member can do to raise the point, privately, but I was told emphatically and repeatedly that there was no need to worry, because the existing Committee of Imperial Defence was quite enough to meet all requirements. I continued to press the matter, as did many other hon. Members. The present Leader of the Opposition added his great weight and war-time experience to our efforts, and it was an immense relief to many of us in March, 1936, to learn of the appointment of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, an appointment which we had been so often told was wholly unnecessary.
  I based the greatest hopes on that appointment, but now, 16 months after the appointment was made, I would presume to review the results of the appointment as they appear to an obscure back-

  2941
  bench Member. I claim this justification for presuming to read a lecture to anybody on the Front Bench that I have been in this problem of inter-service co-ordination almost from the beginning. It is more than 22 years ago that I was an observer on the aeroplane that carried out the second contact patrol that was undertaken in the last War. It was in May, 1915, and the result, incidentally, was negligible. Twenty-one years ago I was the liaison officer for co-ordination between the cavalry and the Royal Flying Corps on the Somme. And 20 years ago I was on the staff of General Headquarters in France, responsible for co-ordinating co-operation training between the Army and the Royal Flying Corps. Therefore, long before the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence took over his appointment I had been deeply interested in this subject. I derive little comfort from the fact that in those days the Minister for Co-ordination would probably have had to salute me, or that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was for a short time during the War in statu pupularii to me.
  The right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) said the other day that we needed a Minister of Supply. Whether that be so or not, I think that what we need still is a Minister of Co-ordination. I think that up to a point we have got a Minister of Supply, but I am certain that we have not got a Minister of Co-ordination, because—and this really is my whole charge against my right hon. Friend—he has made this vital and elementary mistake, that he has put the cart of supply before the horse of strategy. He has approached the problem at the wrong end. He has not succeeded in breaking away from the shackles of the Committee of Imperial Defence, into which he was immediately put when he was appointed. I hoped that he was going to break those shackles, but I am afraid that he has not, and that the system has beaten and absorbed him.
  It is a system which for years past, as has been disclosed by correspondence in the "Times" from past Chiefs of Staff, has been designed and perfected to shelve and not to solve problems. It is a system which results in contests between the Departments, in which the strongest and perhaps the most unscrupulous Department wins. It is a system which, as the
  2942
  present Home Secretary said when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, has been designed to find the least objectionable point of contact between the Services. The fault is political. Inevitably, reform must come from the top. It can be imposed only by the Government. It cannot originate from the Services or in the Committee of Imperial Defence itself. It has to be a Cabinet decision that will remove this glaring defect. The trouble is that our senior Ministers, belonging still to the pre-War generation, are so well able to see the trees that they cannot see the wood.
  I want to be brief, and I will therefore presume to make a few bald unqualified assertions. I assert that there is an obvious lack of strategical planning apparent in the whole of our rearmament programme. Only yesterday a body concerned with Army policy circulated a memorandum expressing views on recruiting. What was one question they felt obliged to put in that pamphlet? "What is to be the strategical role of the Army?" What is the position of the Navy and the Air Force in relation to the narrow seas? In every case when one raises these points one is told, and I have no doubt that we shall continue to be told, "Do not worry. The Joint Planning Committee has these matters under close consideration." I ask the House not to be put off by the statement that the Joint Planning Committee is doing everything that is worth doing, because the Joint Planning Committee is simply three departmental, and relatively junior officers, brought together to find the least objectionable points of contact. They have in fact no power of initiation. They are simply part of the machine of the old Chief of Staffs Sub-Committee. That they have been reinforced, as we have been told in the last days, is all to the good, but that is not enough. We want more than a multiplication of ad hoc committees.
  I assert in the second place that the departmental battles continue unabated. I assert also that there is grave disappointment in all the Services at the lack of results on the appointment of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, I assert—and this is a point upon which I desire an answer—that there is apparently no change in the composition of the Committee of Imperial Defence which will make it more effective than it was in

  2943
  the last War. I cannot remember ever hearing anybody in the last War allude to the Committee of Imperial Defence. I never heard it referred to at General Headquarters in France, nor can I remember any authoritative book on the War or any reminiscences of the War in which the work of the Committee of Imperial Defence is referred to. I suggest that under the present system what happened in the last War will happen again; the Prime Minister will be left in the air without a staff, without advisers, and that the existing system will again break up, its component parts reverting to their own Departments, and that again there will be no joint planning at all.
  I do not want to be accused of being purely destructive, and therefore let me put forward two or three simple suggestions. I have made them before: I shall make them again. The first is that the Imperial Defence College should be enlarged, that the age of entry should be reduced, and that by concentrating staff training there we should get away from having three separate staff colleges and doctrines of war. I suggest that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence should equip himself with a small real joint General Staff, wholely detached from the three Ministries, through which he himself would exercise executive powers. I do not claim this to be in any shape or form original because this has been suggested before. On 27th February a statement was made on behalf of the Government to this effect:
  "These new officers"—
  that is, additional to the existing Joint Planning Committee—
  "and the Imperial Defence College will be working together, reinforced if need be, and as experience shows to be necessary in the future, will give us what we need, which is a great General staff in the truest and fullest sense of the word."
  That was said by the Secretary of State for Air more than a year ago in another place, and as far as I know it has not been implemented in any way. There is one further point, not less important. I think the Minister should compel the discontinuance of the system of child entrants into the Navy, the taking of small boys for training as officers, a practice which in later years has such deleterious effect on the naval mind. That brings me to one other point, and here I confess
  2944
  that I am in the difficulty, that I do not know whether I am shouting before I am hurt. I understand that on Thursday next there is to be an announcement on the future status of the Fleet Air Arm. In the absence of any Joint General Staff which might have insured an impartial consideration of these matters—I do not want in any way to be offensive, the word impartial is an unhappy one—a consideration in its broadest aspect free from pressure, and in view of the pressure which one Department—that is the Admiralty—has put upon the Government, I feel justified in saying a word on this projected declaration.
  I agree that whatever the decision may be it has to be a compromise, it has to be a decision adjustable in the light of circumstances, and above all, it has to be a settlement. As the right hon. Member for Epping has said, we cannot go on for years having Government Departments doing what the Admiralty have done for so many years past, refusing to accept Government decisions. Here again I will make one or two brief, bald, and rather aggressive assertions to justify what I have said. The Army and the Air Force, especially the Air Force, have little confidence in naval staff work and they are apprehensive as to what may happen if the Government give way too far. All of us, whatever Service we may have originated from, who served in the Air Force during the War, have a lively recollection of the unhappy state to which aviation under the Admiralty was reduced.
  Finally, let me put one or two direct questions on this point to the Minister. Has this problem of the Fleet Air Arm been examined in the light of the widest strategical considerations? Has there been consultation with, has advice been obtained from, senior officers who have served in the Fleet Air Arm under both the Admiralty and under the Air Ministry? Has advice, has opinion, been obtained from the past instructors and the commandants of the Imperial Defence College who have specialised in co-operative staff work? May we have assurances on two points, first, that the younger Cabinet Ministers who have themselves had war experience will have an opportunity of reviewing the evidence upon which a decision is made, and lastly, if there is to be any material, any major change, in policy to be announced next Thursday

  2945
  may we have an assurance that if enough Members so desire we shall be given an opportunity of debating the decision at a later date?
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. A. Edwards: One speaker after another has drawn the attention of the Minister to problems of vital importance which it would appear have been neglected. One hopes that they have not been neglected and that the right hon. Gentleman when he replies will be able to satisfy the House. The problem I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister is the same as that which I brought to his notice some 18 months ago, that is, the question of our oil supplies. There might have been some doubt a year ago whether the production of oil from our own coal was a practical proposition, but to-day I do not think there is any doubt. All the experts are agreed that we can produce all the oil which this country will require in times of peace or war, and I hope the Minister will be able to give us a definite statement as to the Government's policy in this matter. From a statement made in another place I understand that the Government have accepted the proposition that all our oil requirements can be produced from coal, and that it is only a question as to which process should be adopted. If that is true, then I hope the Minister will confirm the statement made in another place. If it is not true, I hope he will give the House and the country some idea of the proposals which are to be made for securing our oil supplies in time of war.
  The question of our supplies of food, a matter of vital importance, has been raised to-day, but I do not think it is any more important than our supplies of oil. I understand that the Government are preparing storage for oil at considerable expense. The last time the Minister did me the courtesy of replying to my question he told me that he was not satisfied that the production of oil from coal was a commercial proposition. May I put this question to him as the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence: Is he satisfied that the money spent on ships and tanks and aeroplanes is a commercial proposition? We are not discussing these matters as a commercial proposition but as questions of defence. Lord McGowan, the head of Imperial Chemical Industries has said that we can produce all the oil
  2946
  we want in time of war and in time of peace, but he also said that it is not a matter for private enterprise, but a matter of national policy. I hope the Minister will tell us whether it is the policy of the Government to produce our supplies of oil from coal. Two days ago the Secretary for Mines said that it was impossible to assess the value of finding supplies of oil in this country. One of the greatest experts in the world has told us that this country has more supplies of oil than almost any other country, but it is in solid, not in liquid form.
  When we are considering the question of Defence we do not consider the cost. It is quite true that the production of oil from coal must be a subsidised industry, but I know many less worthy industries which are obtaining a subsidy. If the question of the production of oil from coal is vital, I do not think we should stick at any cost. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has said that Germany lost the War finally by oil sanctions. We ought to know what steps are being taken by the Government in this matter. The figures I quoted to the House more than a year ago about the employment side of this problem were not nearly so good as those which came from a much greater authority. Lord McGowan has said that if the Government undertake to produce their oil supplies from coal there will be employment not for 80,000 men, the figure I gave, but for 300,000 men. When the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence puts this question into the sphere of economics I hope he will consider the effect of a reduction like that in our unemployment figure of 1,500,000. It is said now by all the best authorities that the figures I gave were on the low side and that the proposition works out much better than I put it.
  I would like to touch on one other subject—the location of industries. Have any steps been taken to prevent the spread of industries in the London area? It is safe to say that 50 per cent. of the people living in London have no right to live there, and should be living in different parts of the country. Fifty per cent. of the factories which have been established in the London area in the last 10 years have no moral right to have been established here. If that is true, 50 per cent. of the traffic could have been avoided. The most dangerous thing that is happening

  2947
  in this country or will happen in the event of war is that an enormous proportion of our food supplies are being brought through the Port of London. The Port of London authorities are deliberately spending another £10,000,000 on expansion. We have ports up and down the country which are better fitted for dealing with these imports and exports, and it would be in the interests of safety and defence if you now began to use these ports very much more. Take our trade to the ports and districts where the people are rather than transfer the people to already overloaded centres. Will the Minister give either a denial or a confirmation of the statement made in another place that it is the accepted policy of the Government to produce all our oil requirements from coal?
  7.3 p.m.
  Sir T. Inskip: The Debate which has taken place has ranged over such a vast number of topics that my statement—the statement to which the right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) called attention—that I was sometimes terrified by the responsibilities of my office, was well justified. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, for instance, who did not inform me that he was going to raise this question of oil, has paid me the compliment of assuming that I was an encyclopaedia of information capable of producing facts and figures without notice.
  Mr. Edwards: If the right hon. Gentleman will read the report of the Debate in another place he will see that it is said that he has been advised of that Debate and given all the information requisite.
  Sir T. Inskip: I am not complaining of the hon. Gentleman, but saying that he paid me a compliment in assuming that I should be ready without notice to produce the necessary information. I will come later to his observations, if I may. The whole question of my duties has been raised this afternoon. My hon. and gallant Friend behind me has spoken in somewhat serious terms of my failure to appreciate my proper responsibilities, and he complained that I have not given evidence of usefulness in my office with one exception. He fell into the mistake which was at one time common but which I had hoped had now been exploded, that
  2948
  I devoted my time and energies chiefly to the question of supply. That is a long way from the truth. It may be that when I began my duties, unfamiliar as I was with many topics, I began with some matters which then were urgent and which were comparatively simple; but the greater part of my time has long since been taken up with what may be described as preparation of plans, consideration of problems and, indeed, I have been engrossed in what the right hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) described as the intellectual problems.
  When my hon. and gallant Friend behind me reads me a lecture on my failure to do anything else except act as Minister of Supply he does it, I know, with all good temper and for the good of my soul, but his facts are wrong. Reference has been made to the small staff which is associated with my Department. The right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) has spoken of the trouble which newspaper headlines sometimes cause to speakers, but I find myself from time to time suffering from another mischief, and that is that when I try to introduce a little lightness into what is generally on my part a dull and heavy discourse I find that the lighter parts are taken out to the loss of what was of any importance. When I was addressing the Summer School in Oxford—it was a Summer School in Oxford on a bright summer morning—and when they had been listening to me for some time I thought that they were entitled to something lighter than they had been given, but hon. Gentlemen must not make too much of what is the truth, that my staff is a small one and the same with which I began, because in fact I have at my disposal a vast organisation—I do not think that that is too great a word—and I am entitled to draw on their accumulated experience and advice, and I have the advice and assistance of many outside the ranks of the Services.
  My hon. and gallant Friend fell into another mistake when he expressed a hope that the constitution of the Committee of Imperial Defence would be changed. Would it not be a good thing if he were to read a little about the history of the Committee of Imperial Defence and understand its organisation? It is a body of which the only permanent member is the Prime Minister himself. The Prime Minister constitutes it as he thinks fit from

  2949
  time to time. The persons who are called to its deliberations are so many and represent such a wealth of experience, that I think in 1935 over 500 different persons—soldiers, sailors, airmen, industrialists, economists and politicians—were summoned to the Committee and its sub-committees for one purpose or another, in order that the best opinion might be obtained. To speak of altering the constitution of the Committee of Imperial Defence and to talk of it being broken up into its Departmental fragments when war breaks out, is wholly to misunderstand its constitution. It is not composed of Departmental representatives. Certain Ministers, of course, are summoned because they have special duties to perform in relation to defence, but the Prime Minister is entitled to summon to the Committee of Imperial Defence even those politicians, it may be, who are not for the moment Members of the Government, and subcommittees of the Committee of Imperial Defence at this present moment include others than politicians and others than the representatives of Departments. It is indeed the most flexible machine that could be devised for the purpose of getting together the collective wisdom which this great country can find in so many quarters. This is the machine in which my hon. and gallant Friend says I have been caught.
  He says that he has never read a book in which any reference was made to the part played by the Committee of Imperial Defence in the late War. Perhaps it is because the Committee of Imperial Defence, like the Cabinet, does not publish its Minutes in order that they may be reproduced in popular works. Again I would invite my hon. and gallant Friend to consider what the history of the supreme control in the War was, and this will enable me to make one or two observations which illustrate the attention which has been paid to what the right hon. Member for Keighley has described as the intellectual problems, namely, what is the proper design of a staff or a Cabinet which has to be the supreme authority in a war. My hon. and gallant Friend says that the Committee of Imperial Defence played no part in the conduct of the War. Again he is wrong.
  Everybody remembers that so far as the Government of the day were concerned the arrangements passed through three stages. In the first stage the
  2950
  Cabinet was the old peace-time Cabinet which carried on in normal conditions, but it was not many months before it was realised that the peace-time Cabinet would not be suitable for such an emergency. The second stage was to establish the War Committee answerable to the Cabinet, which relieved the Cabinet of the investigations and decisions involved in the day-to-day conduct of the War but reserved for the formulation of the Cabinet the larger questions of policy. It was after rather more than two years that the War Cabinet was devised which carried on the conduct of the War under the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) to the end. All these systems had this in common, that they had behind them the advice and the help of the machinery of the Committee of Imperial Defence, without which, indeed, these various bodies—I think anybody who knows the facts will agree—would have been less efficient for the purpose for which they were devised.
  The politicians in a War Cabinet or Committee cannot possibly supply all the experience and knowledge which are, necessary to enable right decisions to be made, unless there is behind them somebody who can consider them with more professional experience, and it is because of this experience of the Great War that attention has been given to the preparation of a plan for the conduct of any war in which we may unhappily one day be engaged. The preparations and the plans are obviously plans which could be put into force only by the Government that provided them. They are plans which can be modified from time to time as conditions may alter, and they will be subject to the decision of the Government if and when war should break out. But the whole of these arrangements have been made with the object of effecting the transition on to a war footing with the least possible friction or indeed even without a change. Moreover, they are arrangements which have been tested to some extent, happily not in any major war or indeed in any actual war, but in some of the serious emergencies with which the Government have been faced in the course of the last two or three years.
  All the time there is the Committee of Imperial Defence quietly working, meeting, and calling into its councils those who can make some contribution to the

  2951
  problems to be considered; and there will be the same machinery, the same great advisory body, whether it is a war cabinet or a war committee that is responsible for the conduct of any war into which we may come. But the plans go a little further than that. Arrangements have been made for ensuring that the commanders of each of the three Services in any theatre of war shall keep in close contact with one another, and they will reproduce the co-ordination, which happily is growing every day, of the Staffs at home; and if the plan is approved by the Government of the day, arrangements have been made to ensure that the instructions of responsible Service Departments to the commanders of their respective forces in the field shall also be closely concerted. I could, if this were the proper time and occasion on which to explain these plans, go into greater detail, but I hope I have said enough to suggest at any rate that this very necessary piece of preparation has not been overlooked; and I hope also that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be prepared to think again as to the value of the Committee of Imperial Defence.
  Now I will say something about my duties. I need only refer to the White Paper of March, 1936, for the most authoritative explanation or statement of the duties that have been entrusted to me. That White Paper set out those duties. As far as I know, they are my duties to-day. I have tried to carry them out, and I do not think I have neglected any part of them. According to the White Paper, the first of my duties is:
  "The general day-to-day supervision and control on the Prime Minister's behalf of the whole organisation and activity of the Committee of Imperial Defence."
  I apprehend that that does not mean that I am to bear responsibility for everything that may be considered to come within the scope of Imperial Defence. Let hon. Members consider what a vast field Imperial Defence covers. When speaking at Oxford, I used the expression of General Ludendorff, that the next war will be a total war. Everybody will be involved. The fact is that when one considers Defence, there is nothing that is excluded, even down to the health and feeding of the children. But perhaps that is not a part of Defence as covered by the Debate to-day. I suggest that my
  2952
  duties cannot be so interpreted as to make me the Departmental Minister responsible for explaining, justifying arid defending Government policy, whether it be in relation to the Service Departments or in relation to those Civil Departments which are likely to be involved in the preparation for any emergency.
  I believe I am interpreting the decision of Parliament correctly when I assume that, while my duties are the supervision and control, as deputy of the Prime Minister when he is not able to be present or to give his attention to it, of the work and activity of the Committee of Imperial Defence, that does not mean that I am to answer in this House for the great variety of topics that people may regard as important in connection with Defence. I do not believe one could find a Minister or devise a staff that could undertake that responsibility. The next sentence in the White Paper provides that I shall be responsible for:
  "The co-ordination of executive action,"
  and then there is a reference to supply. I think that part of my duty has been carried out adequately; at any rate, I have carried it out to the best of my ability. The reference to "the co-ordination of executive action" is a very wide one, and undoubtedly it brings within my duties a great range of activities on behalf of the three Service Departments and also on behalf of the Home Office, in so far as passive air raid precautions are concerned.
  I propose now to give such answers as I can to the questions that have been put to me in the Debate. I cannot hope to give a full answer to the questions put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland. He put a fair and proper list of questions as to the plans for passive air raid precautions, and I can promise, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping suggested, that they will be noted and examined. The right hon. Gentleman put the questions with such rapidity that I could not take note of them, but they will be observed. At this moment, I cannot answer them, and, indeed, I do not think I am really the Minister whose duty it is to answer them in the House. Having mentioned that subject, let me say what has been done with regard to passive air raid precautions. Everybody agrees that they are extremely important, and

  2953
  I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman thought that any of us was in any doubt about the dangers from the air. We know very well that we have a very vulnerable community in London, and that there are other communities which are almost equally vulnerable. For instance, the Coventry district and our naval ports are very vulnerable. Indeed, when the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) asked about the storing of food supplies and suggested that they should not be stored in ports that are very vulnerable, but in places further inland, perhaps he overlooked how almost every part of this country is rapidly becoming vulnerable, if it is a question of places that are likely to attract the invading aeroplanes of an enemy.
  Sir A. Salter: I suggested a great dispersion of storage places inland. I suggested that it was possible to choose much less vulnerable places.
  Sir T. Inskip: I will deal fully with that question later on. We are all aware of the menace from the air, and a great deal of work has been done in connection with that. It is impossible for me to go into details, but it would be wrong to assume that a great deal has not been done, because until there were discussions with the local authorities, the matter had not received very much publicity. The very fact that discussions have taken place as to the financial responsibility indicates that our plans have reached a very advanced stage. The new problems having been raised, surely the first stage was to ascertain what were the matters that required attention, in relation to the fire brigade service, for instance, or the provision of gas masks and decontaminating stations, and when an estimate had been made of what was necessary, to pass to the second stage of beginning to provide the things that were essential, such as gas masks. That has been done. Thirdly, it became necessary to consider with the local authorities how those plans could be put into effect. The right hon. Gentleman and the House will perhaps know that the whole country has been surveyed. It has been divided into certain zones, in one of which preparations must be on a more elaborate scale than in another, according to the proximity of any menace to a particular community. If and when—and I hope it will be very
  2954
  soon—the question of financial responsibility is disposed of—
  Mr. E. J. Williams: The Government should dispose of that.
  Sir T. Inskip: The Government have taken it in hand and are discussing it with the local authorities in the proper way. When those discussions have ended and when a proper settlement has been arrived at, those plans can be carried into active execution.
  Mr. Holdsworth: The war may be here before they have decided what to do. It will take two years.
  Sir T. Inskip: The hon. Member takes the attitude which the right hon. Gentleman who is his leader deprecated, namely, an attitude of "scare."
  Mr. Holdsworth: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has a right to say that. If it takes two years to suggest a plan, and if at the end of the two years there has been no decision as to who is to bear the cost, what is the good of arguing about all these preparations? It is time there was some decision on that point.
  Sir T. Inskip: The preparation of schemes is a very important part of the plans. We must survey the country and see what it is necessary to provide, and the next stage is to settle who is to carry out the work. The hon. Member says that war may come before we have done that. I hope that war may not come before that. In every plan we are making, we consider the perpetual problem: are you to turn the whole country over to some elaborate preparation upon the footing that war will come certainly, or are you to do what is reasonable and methodical? I venture to think that in this matter the Government have been perfectly methodical and logical in elaborating the plans, in designing what is necessary, and in taking it up with the local authorities. All I can say is that the third stage has now been reached, and I see no reason why we should not at once begin to carry out the plans so carefully and elaborately made. I come now to the point made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to the intellectual problems, which he suggested I was not considering. The only illustration he gave was that the Air Ministry assumed that attack was so overwhelmingly superior to defence

  2955
  that there was no answer. I can truly say that neither I nor the Government have ever formed that opinion.
  Mr. Lees-Smith: I was referring to the past.
  Sir T. Inskip: I cannot deal with past Governments, and I am very glad to have the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he does not make that charge against this Government. As a matter of fact, that is one of the intellectual problems—a word which seems almost too good for anything with which I am connected—to which a great deal of attention has been given. I am wholly of the opinion that was first suggested, I think, in a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping, who said that if proper attention was given to the possible methods of defeating an air menace, a way would be found. The right hon. Gentleman has repeated that statement this afternoon.
  Mr. Churchill: In eight or nine years.
  Sir T. Inskip: I share that view. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness asked what was happening in the research committee? He will not expect me to answer that question even when I have read it in the OFFICIAL REPORT, except to tell him that the research committee is very active and has produced some very remarkable results. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will be content with that answer. Indeed he himself shows how far he is behind the stage which the research committee has reached by his recital of the matters which he hoped they were considering. I can assure him that the discoveries and the inventions have passed a little further than he indicated. But these are matters that everybody must speak of with a proper regard to secrecy.
  I am aware, when I speak of secrecy, that one of my friendly critics once said of me that if I take on the veil of secrecy it is very difficult to know whether my eyes are on the ground or on the air. That is true perhaps, and I have to put up with that criticism, but nothing could be more disastrous or wrong than for me to drop even a hint at what research has attained and how much stronger we are in air defence, in consequence of its discoveries and the application of those discoveries. My mind, I can assure the right bon Gentleman opposite, is not so
  2956
  cluttered up with details that I am unable to consider questions of this kind. My noble Friend the Secretary of State for Air has devoted himself very much to this problem and has been and is engaged in devising methods of defence which I hope will secure that immunity to which my right hon. Friend referred, even sooner than the eight or nine years which he indicated as the period within which success might be attained.
  This illustrates as well as anything else the lack of foundation in the complaints that I have not a proper staff. Nobody supposes that my small personal staff is engaged in considering these problems. Of course it is not. The research committee keep these matters under their consideration. I share in the deliberations. I cannot contribute anything on the scientific side of the examination of these problems and it is not my personal staff which is doing the work—it is this great organisation of which the research committee is only a part. In a sense, that is really my staff and when hon. and right hon. Gentlemen speak of my Department as not being adequately equipped for the work which I am doing, if they would take a larger sweep and look at this organisation of which I have tried to give an illustration in connection with air defence, they would realise that it is the best equipped staff which this country could possibly have.
  Sometimes I think hon. Members are in the habit of thinking that the mention of a committee is an indication that a particular question has been shelved. Somebody used that expression this afternoon and referred to the shelving of some problem or some difficulty. We often have committees and committees can be very tiresome, tedious and dilatory bodies but I assure the House that the Committees with which I am acquainted are composed of men who come to them not because they have any spare time but because they ward to settle these questions. They are, in fact, joint staffs and they are considering these problems with all the knowledge that the Service Departments, industrialists, scientists and business men can bring together to solve them. Let me repeat, so that this may be the last occasion upon which this mistake as to my duties will find utterance, that although at the beginning I may have given

  2957
  perhaps a disproportionate part of my time to Supply matters, that part of my duties is now to some extent running so smoothly under the direction of my right hon. Friends and also with Sir Arthur Robinson at the head of the Supply Board, that the time I give to those problems is but a fraction of the time I spend in considering those larger questions to which I have referred.
  One of my hon. Friends referred to the disappointment which he felt at the fact that I was not in constant session with the Chiefs of Staff. I think that would be very inconvenient and I cannot imagine that the Chiefs of Staff would welcome my attendance. Nobody has been more helpful than the Chiefs of Staff and I will not say that I should be a skeleton at the feast but certainly I should not be a useful member of the committee. Will the House bear with me for a moment while I tell them what is done in this way of planning? Before my appointment, planning from day to clay was done by the Joint Planning Committee. It was the body, under the Chiefs of Staff, which prepared the necessary plans for any emergency or situation which required attention. Just about the time I was appointed the joint Planning Committee was reinforced by the appointment of an additional officer from each service to deal with what I may call long-range planning. Plans relating to every possible theatre of operations have been considered by this committee, approved and possibly revised by the Chiefs of Staff and in every case except one now under the consideration of the Government, those plans have been approved by the Government itself.
  Does anybody think that those plans would have been better devised if I had sat with the Joint Planning Committee or the Chiefs of Staff, while they were hammering out the technical details involved? You cannot turn a decayed lawyer into a service expert merely because you think he ought to sit with the Chiefs of Staff in continuous session. I think the system which is in force to-day is about the best which could be devised, and I think I may say without undue arrogance, that when I have exercised the right given to me in the White Paper of summoning the Chiefs of Staff to consult with me when I think fit, I have sometimes assisted in the laying out of a
  2958
  particular problem and in hastening the decision which ultimately has to be taken by the Government of the day.
  Take the question of anti-aircraft defence, about which a great deal has been said. I hesitate to say these things to the House because they bear the appearance of assuming to myself a greater usefulness than my hon. and gallant Friend behind me would allow me to receive. But I asked at the end of last year the Chiefs of Staff and the heads of the Services to consult with me as to the whole question of anti-aircraft defence. I wrote a long memorandum on the subject which has been the basis of all the preparation that have since been made for extending anti-aircraft defence from those regions to which it was first attributed, to other places more remote and inland, in the West and North, which have to be protected against the ever-increasing range of aircraft, just as much as Portsmouth, Chatham or London.
  That is an illustration of what sometimes happens. I would even claim that in the work I have tried to do in connection with the Fleet Air Arm I have been engaged in one of those intellectual problems to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite referred. My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping was, I think, inclined to suggest that we had taken too long over it, and I do not say that he is wrong, but at any rate it is now completed as far as I am concerned. The decision must be, of course, the decision of the Government. Whether the reasons in my report are right or wrong has to be considered by a better authority than myself, but I can assure the House that it has not been an easy task. It has not been a task which I could complete by a stroke of the pen and a "Yes" or "No" to the demands of one service or the other. The Imperial Conference with its absorbing demands upon the time of Ministers, did not make it easier either for the Chiefs of Staff or myself to complete the examination. Someone asked me whether I had considered the strategic considerations. I should have been very much wanting in my appreciation of my task if I had not considered the strategic considerations. I have thought of that as well as my hon. and gallant Friend. My right hon. Friend below the Gangway said it had been difficult to arrive at a decision, and nobody thinks that even

  2959
  a speedy decision would enable a plan to be carried out and completed within a few weeks or months. Whatever is necessary to make the Fleet Air Arm the effective instrument which it ought to be, is obviously something which will require time, and labour as well, to be spent upon it.
  As far as the questions which have been submitted to me are concerned, I think I should be wearying the House if I attempted to deal with them in detail, but I did propose to speak on the subject of food supplies. Before doing so, I may reply in a sentence to the hon. Member opposite who made one or two statements which I could not accept. He said it was now universally admitted that we could provide more oil than we wanted from coal. I do not know where that is admitted, but the universality of the admission does not extend to me. I do not believe it is true. I realise, as everybody does, the importance of extracting some oil from coal, partly for special purposes and partly because it provides relief in some hardly-pressed areas, if it is possible to do it. I may remind the House that Lord Falmouth's Committee has been appointed to examine various processes for the production of oil from coal and to report on their economic possibilities and the advantages to be obtained from them by way of security of oil supplies in an emergency. When that committee has reported the Government will be able to consider whether the cost of such a scheme and the loss involved is disproportionate to the advantage to be obtained.
  But I may point this out to the hon. Member opposite. If you were going to produce oil from coal you would want not one or two or three units but perhaps a number running into double figures. [An HON. MEMBER: "Twenty."] Let me point out to the hon. Member that with every unit you erect for producing oil from coal, you erect one more target for the enemy. If we were to make ourselves dependent solely upon oil from coal and were not to keep in existence a service of tankers, we should give one more hostage to fortune. The destruction of one or two or three units would bring disaster, because it would mean the difference between sufficiency and insufficiency. I quite recognise the importance of considering this problem, but it is
  2960
  rather a larger one than the hon. Gentleman is constrained to admit.
  Mr. A. Edwards: The point that I brought to the Minister's notice was this, that with the full authority of the Government it was said last week that they accepted the proposition of the necessity for producing oil from coal, and that it was only a question of which one of three processes would be adopted.
  Sir T. Inskip: Yes, as an addition, and a useful addition, to the other resources. I accept that, but I think the hon. Gentleman would not put his case as high as to suggest that we ought to get all the oil that we want from coal.
  Mr. Edwards: It is possible.
  Sir T. Inskip: It is theoretically possible, but it is undesirable from more than one point of view. Now let me say a word about food storage, which was raised by the hon. Member for Oxford University. Few people know more about it than himself, and I thankfully acknowledge the contribution which he has made. That is one value of these Debates, that we can get these questions thrashed out with contributions from all parts of the House. I am only in a position to say this, that the Government have had the assistance of one of our greatest public servants, a civil servant, on this question for months. He reviewed the position in all the detail which was necessary to enable the Government to come to a decision on the question of food storage. It is not an easy question, and the proposals have not been either rejected or accepted at present by the Government. The Government are aware of the advantages. I do not think anybody considering food storage would for a moment fail to form the opinion which the hon. Gentleman has expressed that it would be an immense relief to the Government to feel that they had behind them a substantial quantity of food for the population, but that is not to dispose of all the considerations. Reference has been made to the cost of many of these services. The cost, even if it be what the hon. Member for Oxford University has put upon it, is not a negligible item, and a great many of these questions have to be considered in the light of their cost, of their relative importance, and of their place in the whole scheme of defence for which the Government are responsible.

  2961
  The hon. Gentleman spoke of it as a department or branch of defence which was not securing its proper place, but he was wrong in hinting that there is any opposition from the Services to food storage. Indeed, the Services would heartily welcome it. It has had very close attention, and it is now, as I say, in a state in which the Government can take a decision, and the House may be assured that it will be fully informed, necessarily, of what the Government's
  decision is.
  Sir A. Salter: May I correct an impression that I did not intend to give, namely, that I thought the Service Departments were opposing it? I never had that idea, but what I feared was that when the Departments were competing for all the resources and the attention they could get, it was perhaps unlikely that a Department such as I mentioned would be, so to speak, an equal competitor, which is a very different thing from imagining that they were opposing it. On the contrary, I know that some of the greatest Service Departments would very greatly welcome this proposal as a relief from their own responsibility.
  Sir T. Inskip: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the unlikely has happened and that this food question has had a very high place in our considerations. I am afraid that I cannot say more than that at the present time. He himself has mentioned many parts of the problem which require attention, such as feeding stuffs for cattle, with the difficulties of which he is familiar. I have detained the House for some time, but there is one question which, although it may be said that it is not strictly within my duties to attend to, was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping. He referred again to this question of guns in Spain and elsewhere. Hon. Members have perhaps been a little impatient at the absence of information, and the Government, of course, are always anxious to give information which in their discretion can properly and safely be given. Even now it is not possible or desirable for me to give full details, but I think I can give enough to allay any anxiety which the House may feel on this question. No guns have been mounted in the Bay of Algeciras which can in the circumstances be regarded as constituting any threat to Gibraltar. A battery of four large howitzers was
  2962
  mounted overlooking the Straits, and in fact two have been removed. These howitzers were in the possession of the Spanish Government before the outbreak of the civil war, and we are advised that if they had been intended to be any threat to Gibraltar, they would have been differently disposed. I am not competent to explain the technicalities, but the mountings, the placing of the guns, or whatever the arrangements are, would have been different. A howitzer is not a seaward gun. Somebody suggested that a howitzer was likely to be a menace to shipping in the Straits of Gibraltar.
  The remainder of the guns in the Bay of Algeciras are, to use my right hon. Friend's term, secondary. They are few in number, and these guns, neither in numbers nor in size, threaten Gibraltar, nor were they sited so as to have that purpose, but in all cases, whether of guns of larger calibre or the secondary guns, they are all of them out-powered by the Gibraltar armament. In the circumstances of the Spanish civil war and in the light of events, I think the House will agree that the presence of these guns is quite intelligible and that it is not necessary to imagine or to invent any sinister intentions with regard to this country. There is no reason, the Government think, having carefully considered it, for raising the question at all or for any scare or anxiety as to the situation. Indeed, the mere fact that two of these howitzers have been removed is perhaps a straw which would indicate the course of the current.
  As to the opposite shore Ceuta always has been heavily armed. There were guns there before the War. It is true that there have been additions to the existing armament, but we have been well aware of the guns, and, except that every gun anywhere is a potential threat to anything that comes within its range, it cannot be said that these guns are a threat to Gibraltar or to the shipping. It is quite true that if they were part and parcel of a larger design, they would then have to be considered as part of a great problem. I am only considering them as separate, as an incident apart from the whole question that is really proper to be considered by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary. The House will realise that after all Ceuta is Spanish territory, and I suggest to the House that the Government can be trusted to consider whatever

  2963
  importance these guns may have in relation to the whole of the circumstances, which, of course, are constantly kept under review. I hope these facts that I have stated will dispose of some of the somewhat unnecessarily alarmist statements which have been made with regard to these supposed threats.
  I cannot hope to have covered very many of the topics that have been raised. I can but repeat what I have already promised that I will study the many suggestions made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and I join in thanking him for having raised such a number of important topics. The right hon. Gentleman opposite referred to the fact that it is a long time since I last addressed the House on these subjects. I should like to thank hon. Members in all parts of the House for the help that they have given me, for the forbearance that they have shown, and for the contributions that have been made both in Debate and in correspondence, and I am quite sure that, speaking on behalf of the Government, we can truly say that we desire nothing better than the helpful criticism which has been addressed to me this afternoon in an attempt to make this country as safe as it can be against an emergency which we hope will never overtake us.
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: Before the right hon. Gentleman resumes his seat, can he make a statement as to when the Government—
  Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman had finished his speech.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. Amery: As I listened to my right hon. Friend's speech and watched the faces of hon. Members in every quarter of the House waiting, eagerly waiting, for my right hon. Friend to deal with the main issue raised in this Debate, I could only think of a famous line of Milton's:
  "The hungry sheep look up and are not fed."
  My right hon. Friend has made no attempt whatever to deal with the fundamental vital issue affecting our whole defence which has been raised in this Debate. He has told us a lot that we have all been familiar with for years and years about the work of the Committee of Imperial Defence, about the
  2964
  innumerable ad hoc committees and the useful work done by the Committee of the Three Chiefs of Staff with their joint planning committee, consisting of officers in the various Departments, and so on. We have known all about that for years, and for years the House of Commons regardless of party has said that that is not enough. That is a method which does fulfil certain valuable functions, but it is not capable of giving us a real co-ordination of defence policy. By a co-ordination of policy we mean something that will get the fullest value out of the immense efforts and sacrifices that are being demanded of this country. We mean something which is going to prevent the waste of overlapping, the waste of incoherent and inconsistent policies as between different Departments concerned. We believe, I am speaking I venture to say on this issue fur the whole House, that that can only be done by entrusting it to one Minister assisted by an adequate staff of his own, a staff for the time being not any of them members of one or other of the fighting Services but attached to him and reinforced—I entirely agree with the Opposition spokesman here—by the ablest civilian brains you can find, a staff which would be in a position to examine the fundamental question of what each Department contributes to the common defence and whether what it wishes to do does effectively contribute to that defence. This afternoon in the course of the earlier discussion as to what was or was not in order, my right hon. Friend said that he was not called upon to advise what should be the defence policy of the various Departments but only to co-ordinate.
  Sir T. Inskip: I never said that.
  Mr. Amery: I took it down at the time, and we shall see from the OFFICIAL REPORT whether or not I have taken it down correctly. I took it down that he was not called on to advise the measures necessary for home defence but only to co-ordinate. He clearly uses the word "co-ordinate" in an entirely different sense from that in which the House as a whole uses it. He means the mere adjustment of difficulties that may arise between the Departments. We have been told that the Exchange Equalisation Fund exists to even out minor fluctuations in the exchanges. I gather that that is the

  2965
  conception that my right hon. Friend has of his functions with regard to the vital problems of defence. If that is his conception, I am not surprised that it has taken the best part of 18 months to come to some sort of decision on such a trifling matter, relatively speaking, as the control of the Fleet Air Arm. I am not surprised that the question whether the Cardwell system gives us, or can give us, an Army suited to our strategical necessities is only now being considered by the War Office. I am not surprised that, when it comes to the equally vital question of the defence of this country against an attack that may come within an hour of the declaration of war, we are now reaching that second stage when the Treasury and the local authorities have begun to wrangle as to who is to pay if and when the measures of defence are begun to be taken. I entirely agree with the remark of an hon. Member on the benches opposite who suggested that possibly war might come before we had got very far in these various preliminary stages towards putting our defences in order.
  I should like to say something—for my right hon. Friend has said nothing—about that tremendously important issue of our home defence against air attack which was raised so justly in a speech of great thought and ability by my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair), to whom we are greatly indebted for giving us the opportunity of this Debate. It is perfectly true, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) said, that the first essential is that we should have a fighting air force equal to that of any power. Still, your sword may be as good as your opponent's, but if you lack body armour and he possesses it you fight under a tremendous disadvantage. If our air squadrons get through successfully, as no doubt they will, and are met by effective ground defence at every point of importance, and if the enemy squadrons get through and are met with inadequate ground defence, then, whether the enemy succeeds in paralysing our machinery for conducting the war by destroying our armament factories, or whether he paralyses the life of the nation by destroying our docks and means of communication, or whether he actually reduces parts of our population to panic—whatever he succeeds in doing puts us at a disastrous disadvantage.
  2966
  I am by no means disinclined to believe what my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping has said that in the course of years ground defence will master the air. Even to-day ground defence has enormously reduced the effective striking power of the aeroplane. You cannot prevent the aeroplane getting through, but you can reduce its chances of hitting vital targets by 90 per cent. or more if you have an effective ground defence. You certainly reduce also by 90 per cent. or more the damaging results which he may inflict on the population by the spread of fire, by poison gas, and other means. Ground defence may in part, if not altogether, master the air. But the air can master completely and devastatingly the country that has no ground defence. Have we even begun to prepare, either on the active or on the passive side, that ground defence which is required from the first hour of a great European War if we are dragged into it? We are to have presently two divisions of Territorials for this task. Why not 20? I believe that 20 is far nearer the mark of what is required.
  Let me remind the House of what the problem is. As I have said, I believe that adequate ground defence can enormously reduce, if not entirely master, air attack. But there is one quality about ground defence which we must never forget—it is immobile. It can defend only the places which it is immediately guarding. An air opponent has every spot in England as his target within an hour. As my hon. Friend said very truly, there is no place in this country that does not offer a target, and there is no target in the country which, if it were left wholly defenceless and were destroyed, might not produce disastrous results to our defence. What we have to remember is that while we must defend every important point, there are an enormous number of points that should be defended and that can, therefore, only be defended by large numbers. We have to have adequate provision not only in the London area but in cities like Coventry and Birmingham, at every important railway junction, and at every important factory and harbour in the country. It is an enormous task. I cannot see from anything that my right hon. Friend said that the size of it has even begun to dawn on him.

  2967
  Then there is the whole question of the organisation of the passive defence of the population. As a matter of organisation that has been left to the Home Office. That may be right, and I am not going to enter on the details of that policy. But surely the strategical decision as to the kind of organisation must come from above. It cannot come from below. How can the Home Office decide as between poison gas and thermite bombs which is going to be the more probable or more formidable method of attack? It is for my right hon. Friend or for the Air Minister, if it is decided that the thermite bomb is the most formidable means and is the thing most likely to disorganise the whole of our defence, to give instructions to the Home Office to see that our fire brigades are doubled, or it may be quadrupled or multiplied by an even larger co-efficient. We must be secure on that side of our defence, and the necessary measures must be thought out and not merely argued between the local authorities and the Treasury as to what each would like to spend.
  There is another very vital question. All this work of ground defence, whether it is fire brigade work, ambulance work, de-contamination work, or whatever it may be, can only be carried out if the men who do it are under definite discipline. What provision has been made for seeing that these men are under discipline? I understand that the whole operational control of the defence of this country is to be under the Air Ministry. By what chain of authority are the instructions and orders of the Air Ministry to be transmitted? Who is going to see to it that men of the fire brigade in a particular place in the hour of terror and danger really do turn up and do not shirk their work?
  Mr. Kelly: The fire brigade will not shirk their work.
  Mr. Amery: I do not believe they will. Our people are always ready to face danger splendidly wherever it is, whether it is on board ship when the ship strikes an iceberg or on the field of battle. All the same you have to reinforce natural courage and willingness with some form of discipline. You must have somebody who will give orders and decide which is the first thing to be done. As far as I under-
  2968
  stand the situation, it appears that that aspect of the problem has not been dealt with or considered. I suggest that in this question of defence against air attack at home we are dealing with one of the major problems of our defence. We are dealing with something which requires instant action in case of a European war. We want it from the first hour of the war down to the last hour. We are not dealing with the kind of problem that can be met like the old problem of invasion as something improbable for which some sort of partly trained reserve might suffice. We must have something that is as efficient when the signal goes as the fire brigade is efficient for its immediate task. It may very well be that this is a task that we cannot wholly entrust to the Territorial Force and that we will require a considerable stiffening of regular units, and certainly of regular officers and men in the home organisation. There is a tremendous piece of work that has to be done, and after 16 months or more since the appointment of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence we are just beginning to get some of the early stages done.
  Let me add a word about the Regular Army. One of the problems which has confronted us again and again in recent years is that which confronted us as far back as the South African War, when we were only able to save Natal by borrowing a division from India; and which confronted us recently when we were only able to deal with the position in Shanghai and in Palestine by all sorts of devices, scraping troops together and calling out the "A" reserves. The former Secretary of State for War truly said not long ago that it was a fortuitous and fortunate circumstance that the Palestinian and Abyssinian troubles did not coincide. Ought we not now, at last, to face one elementary, simple need of Imperial strategy, and that is the need for having some small reserve or surplus, one, or preferably two, divisions of troops, who, like the troops stationed overseas, are able to move anywhere without calling on the reserves, who are permanently mobilised and permanently available? Under the existing Cardwell system no such marginal reserve can exist. We have our minimum garrisons overseas. We have units which feed them from home, and in the case of mobilisation those units create an expeditionary

  2969
  force bearing no relation to any strategical requirements. Our most urgent need is for some troops to be available to prevent a small outbreak becoming a great conflagration, or which at a critical situation on the outbreak of a major war might just hold vital points before they could be seized by an enemy. That small reserve does not exist at all.
  As for our expeditionary force, there, again, I should like to know for what purposes a five-division force is really suited, and for what strategical purposes it is being organised. It is true that in the Great War we were fortunate enough to be able to send our expeditionary force to the Continent without having to make use of it in one or other of the further theatres of war where danger might have affected our whole Imperial position. I can hardly conceive, in the present political constellation, of any great war in which there would not be an immediate demand for every regular soldier whom we can mobilise for the reinforcement of our existing garrisons overseas and for operations vitally affecting our security—it might be for Ceuta, for the defence of Egypt, or it might be for the northern frontier of India. I cannot imagine a situation arising in which the Regular Army, when mobilised, would not be urgently required at two or three points otherwise than on the Continent of Europe. If that is the case, ought we not frankly to make it clear to ourselves, and, indeed, to others, that in so far as immediate assistance in the mass warfare of the Continent is concerned it is upon the Air Force, a weapon of co-operation which we did not possess in 1914, that our allies must rely, and that if we are at all likely to send troops to the Continent—and personally I should be very doubtful about committing ourselves to that—it is much more likely to be, after several months of training, our Territorial Force rather than any of our small Regular forces.
  I have not touched upon the recruiting question, because I believe that belongs more properly to our Army Debates, but I would only suggest that a reconstruction of our military system which would help to solve some of these strategic problems might also do a great deal towards solving the recruiting problem. We should have two periods of service, a short one
  2970
  to build a big reserve for an expeditionary force and a longer one to provide us with that small permanently mobilised reserve of which I spoke, as well as furnish our garrisons overseas. We should then be in a much better strategic position as well as offer a much better alternative to serving men than we do at present. I do not wish to detain the House any further, but I feel bound to voice what I can only describe as my profound dissatisfaction with the statement which my right hon. Friend has made. I cannot feel that he has at all answered the kind of case which has been put up time and again from every quarter of this House for an organisation, such as Germany possesses, which would provide a Minister who would be the Minister primarily responsible to the Cabinet and Parliament for the general defence, and for its proper co-ordination, with a staff of his own to help him. to work that out. I trust that the Government will even now consider whether something more is not required than the mere function of smoothing out minor differences and of assisting at, being present at, meetings of the Chiefs of Staffs and other committees. That is not what we want. We want a Minister who will be as effectively in control of the Chiefs of Staffs, for that particular purpose, and speak for them in Cabinet and in this House, as the First Lord speaks for the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for War speaks for the Army Council.
  We are living in times of very great danger. We have immense responsibilities scattered all over the world and a task of defence that is almost staggering in its magnitude and in the possibilities of danger which are involved. Only the most prudent, cautious foreign policy, coupled for a good many years, I fear, with very great efforts made patriotically by every element in the country, can see us through. Personally, I should like to express my appreciation of the line which the Opposition have taken with regard to the Defence Estimates, a line which was prompted, I think, not so much by considerations of electoral prudence as of genuine concern for the safety of their country. In that situation surely we ought to make quite certain that the efforts we make are not misdirected and the sacrifices we make are not wasted.
  8.21 p.m.
  Mr. Dodd: I think the House is grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Opposition for initiating this Debate to-day. The Debate has shown, I feel, that there is some doubt among Members as to what are the actual duties and responsibilities of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence. What he said at the opening of the Debate on a question of order and what he has said in reply to the Debate has left the House in some doubt as to exactly what are his powers and duties. His duties as Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence cover a wide ramification of interests. They could be said to range from aircraft to aspirins and from bombs to buttons. But the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence must surely be responsible for the whole ramification of Defence, no matter to what Department any part of it belongs. In the last War every Government Department, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Agriculture, the Home Office and the Board of Trade, was affected, and they would be affected again.
  I do not think the House is clear as to the duties of the Minister or thinks that he is only there to co-ordinate the three fighting Services. He has said that he has dealt with the question of supply for the time being. He is to be congratulated on the manner in which things have gone up to date. There has been a minimum of disorganisation throughout industry—some was bound to occur—compared with what there would have been if the work had been left over until the possible outbreak of war. But can the Minister advise the various heads of Departments? We are not clear as to that. I think he did say that he was in a position to advise the various Departments, but we ought to be clear as to whether he co-ordinates the views or is in a position of advising both the permanent staffs and permanent officials and other Ministers connected with the various Departments.
  This country has for a long time allowed things to drift without any great effort to make alterations, and when alterations come and preparations are made they naturally raise a great deal more interest than if they had been done in the ordinary way of Departmental work. One may say that the country has been living in a state of optimism, if an optimist can be described as a man who does not mind
  2972
  what happens as long as it happens to somebody else. The air raid precautions are the one thing which is troubling all people's minds at the present time. Whether they are rich or poor, agriculturists or industrialists, all are perturbed. This is a problem which the Government are confronting, and which will be solved at the earliest possible moment, but everything cannot be done at once. There are many factors which have to be taken into account from the civil point of view, by the Government, by municipalities or by industrialists, and precautions must be taken and preparations made. A question was put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer some time ago as to the allowances that industrialists should receive upon their Income Tax on account of capital spent upon air raid precautions. That is one small matter on which industrialists are very much alive and would very much like to have clear guidance.
  The Ministry of Transport will be affected to a very great extent, and industry and municipalities are also involved in this direction. With air raid precautions there must be the greatest facility for movement. It has been stated this afternoon that anti-aircraft batteries and Territorial divisions are not mobile compared with the majority of aircraft, although they should be essentially mobile forces. It is intended that they should be so, and in that case they would be used for the defence of large cities and towns, and of buildings and factories necessary for manufacture in time of war. The Ministry must he alive to the difficulties of the defence of cities. I have in mind the towns and cities of the West Riding of Yorkshire, East Lancashire and the Midlands, where communication is almost impossible in time of peace, never mind under conditions of aircraft attack.
  Some time ago the Government announced that they were prepared to make a grant of 75 per cent. towards the strengthening of weak bridges and the widening of others. Many hundreds of bridges in the Midlands and in East Lancashire are quite incapable of carrying the traffic which they should, and under conditions of attack from the air, although they would be essential parts of our defence, they would not be able to stand the strain. They would dislocate the

  2973
  whole organisation of ground preparation for attack from the air. Many of the bridges are too small or too narrow. Some of the machines which have been designed and which it is proposed to use are not suitable for road conditions. I have had experience of some of them. To give a simple case, I would mention that I have recently been trying out a new mechanical truck in camp. It is very nice on the main road, but as soon as you get off the main road you cannot get it through a gate into a field. I am told: "In time of war you would knock the gate down"; well, perhaps you would, but 99 per cent. of British fields would have a bridge, and one wheel would soon be over the edge of the bridge unless you had a tractor. The machine would not be as efficient as a single horse or two-horse limber.
  In regard to workshops and factories earmarked for Government construction work, whatever the Department, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence can be helpful. I cannot see that there was any necessity, as has been the case, for factories which have been taken over already built, reconditioned and supplied with goods and commodities to make them fully equipped, for the work then to be done out of the area in which the factory was built. There is no reason why the whole of the work should not be given locally in order to find employment. Most of those factories have been placed in distressed or semi-distressed areas. I appreciate what it means for a Government Department to give out in bulk a large contract for the painting or repair of woodwork, the laying of floors, the reconstruction of pipes, or for communications of one kind or another, but the purpose of these factories at the same time as being a Defence matter, is to find employment in the distressed areas, and there is no reason why that work should not be given out in those distressed areas as far as possible.
  In the course of the Debate, mention has been made of the supply of oil from coal. That matter is undoubtedly costing a great deal of money at the present time and may lead us a very long way. When I pass through English cities and see the change over which is now going on from electric tramways to oil or petrol-driven omnibuses, it often occurs to me that there is a degree of risk in making a change
  2974
  over of that kind at a moment when you are looking for every line of defence. There is no reason why such a change should not be from tramways to trackless trams, using British coal in the manufacture of electricity.
  A question which interests me more particularly than any is the defence of this country by the Territorial Army. Nothing has been said during the Debate about what is the main line of defence when the Regular Army will be abroad on garrison work and the Navy will be at sea. The whole defence of this country will be handed over to the Territorial Army. Air defence is to be in the hands of the aircraft Divisions, amounting in all to two Divisions which, in my opinion, is not a sufficient number. I know that greater progress cannot be made at the moment. While mechanisation is taking place there is no doubt that those two Divisions are a long way from being equipped with the essential material for their completion. If there is one problem of the first importance it is the immediate equipment of those Divisions. It is essential that men should be trained, but that cannot take place without the proper equipment and material. We were told in an announcement at Question Time what a tremendous increase there had been in recruiting for the anti-aircraft Divisions. That is very well, so far as it goes, but it means that, in large industrial areas, men are being recruited for the aircraft battalion at the expense of infantry battalions which have to be in a similar locality. That is detrimental to the battalions which have been established there for a great number of years.
  I hold a commission at the present time in the largest Territorial battalion in the British Army. It is an infantry battalion, and has held a very high position for a long time. It has had the largest strength of any battalion during the past three years. We are in a large industrial area. One of the Battalions in the brigade in which we were, has been converted into a searchlight battalion. That is very admirable, and nobody raises any trouble about it, but so far as we are concerned, after nearly two years of discussion on defence, and of Debate after Debate, the sum total of the equipment with which we have been supplied amounts to two ground sheets per man instead of one, and two or three trucks which have been lent to us. We are not troubled with difficulties of

  2975
  recruitment in that battalion. But other battalions are and the whole Territorial Army is 50,000 men below strength. You will never get officers, non-commissioned officers or men unless it is made attractive to them to join the Territorial Army. It seems to me that, while the vast number of industrialists are prepared to assist in the growth of the Territorial Army, from the point of view alike of officers, noncommissioned officers and men, the lead must come from the Government.
  One suggestion that I would make is with regard to contracts. At present, in the placing of Government contracts, no work is given out unless it is to a firm which employs a certain number of ex-service men and is a member of the King's Roll. The majority of firms fulfil these conditions, but in my opinion, and, I think, in the opinion of most people connected with industry, the usefulness of the King's Roll has passed its time. It is almost 20 years since the War finished, and the majority of the men who came back as ex-service men have become established and are consistently working in these various concerns. Moreover, a considerable number of men who were employed under the King's Roll after the cessation of hostilities have since become pensionable, and many have retired altogether from active industry. It seems to me that we might now substitute for the system of the King's National Roll something else which would cover the employment of men who are giving their time to the Territorial Army and are serving their country in that direction.
  At the present time men cannot be got for the Territorial Army, and in many units it is very difficult to get officers. You cannot get officers to-day, with the attractions which are now offered. It is not that men are not willing to serve as officers, non-commissioned officers and men; they are; but endless difficulties and pinpricks are put in their way. I will give one instance. A Territorial officer going to camp to do his field training is granted £7 10s. for uniform allowance and he has to pay Income Tax even on that. He has also to pay Income Tax on the money he receives during his time in camp. A subaltern cannot live in camp on the pay he receives during that period. The same applies all the way through to the lower ranks of warrant officers and to the non-commissioned officers. They
  2976
  do not receive even their expenses while they are in camp. The lowest paid private is unable to leave his family with any degree of comfort. When he goes away, the sacrifice is not his only; his wife suffers during the fortnight that he is away training at camp. She has to remain at home while he sacrifices what is very often his holiday period. I have seen posters: "Join the Territorial Army and have 14 days in camp at the seaside." That is about the biggest insult that the Territorial Army can receive. The most efficient camp that I have known since the War was a camp on Salisbury Plain. The men enjoyed it, and the work was very efficient, showing better results than any so-called holiday camp at the seaside. The men do not want holiday camps; they join the Territorial Army for work, and they do work. The officer has invariably a business to conduct, and he takes part in the Territorial Army on a voluntary basis; he joins purely and simply from a sense of duty and comradeship. I know men who have to travel 20 or 25 miles across the moors, usually in winter when training is on in the drill halls, and who are hours late getting home, while they spend a portion of their summer holidays in camp.
  In my opinion the Territorial Army cannot be run in the same way as the Regular Army. The type of man is different in each case. I cast no aspersions on the one or the other, but their whole setting is entirely different, and the matter should be considered on its merits. You cannot in peace time run a Territorial Army on promotion by seniority; there should be at any rate openings and opportunities for promotion by merit. This applies to all units. Promotion of that character would open up a wider field and would bring in a vast number of men who could join and become officers in the Territorial Army. I am not suggesting that it is necessary to do as is done very often in the Regular Army, that is to say, to retire men who may be passed over. Such a thing is quite unnecessary in the Territorial Army. I consider that, in order to improve recruitment, there should be for all ranks. whether officers, non - commissioned officers or men, some greater reward than is now given. It is not a question of pounds, shillings and pence, but the number of honours that have been distributed to Territorial officers in past

  2977
  years has been at an absolute minimum, while the only thing the men can hope for is, at rare intervals, a Coronation or Jubilee medal, and an efficiency medal after 12 years' continuous service. We have in the Territorial Army a great number of officers, and there is some co-ordination between the Regular Army and the Territorial Army. The Regular officers who attend in camp with the Territorial Army are of two varieties—the one who comes for a holiday because he does not think the Territorial Army knows anything at all, and the other who is anxious to help and who makes a fine and magnificent contribution to the work that is done.
  I was particularly anxious to raise this question because this is just the time when all the troops are going to camp for their summer training. Some battalions have already been. This is a matter which is in the hands both of the Minister for Co-ordination of Defence and of the War Office, and it is a matter of extreme importance. Men gladly join the Territorial Army and go away to camp, to find that they are not even supplied in the mess with knives, forks and spoons. They have few of the amenities of life, very insufficient allowances, and not much to keep them happy and contented among themselves in camp. They are given uniforms which the Regular Army would be ashamed of. No man can take a pride in being a member of what is really the first line of defence of this country when he is sent out with the equipment that is provided for him at the present time. I think a great deal could be done by making the camps more attractive. The men do not want less work; they want to spend as much time on training as they can, with a minimum number of men left in camp, and they are prepared to work and do their jobs.
  There is one final thing that I want to say. In the defence companies which have been instituted you have men who have had years of experience, many of them in the Regular Army and all in the Territorial Army, men who have been non-commissioned officers and warrant officers. To-day they are assembled and go to the drill hall as a defence company, but they are not allowed to drill, they are not equipped with rifles, and they are not even supposed to shoot. They are supposed to have a bounty of £5 in
  2978
  case of mobilisation for war. Here you see first-rate men, with marvellous training, retired simply because they have reached the age limit, and absolutely going to waste at a time when they might be of the utmost value. I hope that some change will be made so that these men will at any rate get some encouragement when they go to the drill hall as they do, and give up their time. At present they are not even paid their travelling expenses to get there. If we are to recognise that the defence of this country is to be handed over to the Territorial Army and to the aircraft divisions of the Territorial Army, we have to recognise that as a body the Territorial Army is worthy of the fullest consideration, and should be equipped adequately and made as strong and as fine a body as it possibly can be.
  8.44 p.m.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Except that I gathered that the Minister was rather badly stung by the hon. and gallant Member for Wellingborough (Wing-Commander James), I, like the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), find very little indeed to bite on in his speech. In fact, what one can gather from the speech of the Minister has to be gathered by inference. One thing, however, seemed to me to be very clear, and that is that the Minister has become a complete convert to the Committee of Imperial Defence. At the time of his appointment one of the Minister's duties was laid down as reporting on any shortcomings that he found in the work of the Committee of Imperial Defence. We realise from his speech to-day that he finds no shortcomings whatever. The Committee of Imperial Defence has swallowed the right hon. Gentleman whole. It has shown the same capacity for swallowing him as the Admiralty usually shows for swallowing any First Lord who may be appointed there. The War Office has never struck me as having quite the digestive quality of the Admiralty. The War Office will require far more peptic juice than they appear to have to swallow the particularly tough mouthful that they have got hold of in the present Secretary of State for War. There are no shortcomings at all in the Committee of Imperial Defence, so the Minister is relieved from that part of his duty and we can all be happy knowing

  2979
  that the Committee of Imperial Defence slumbers not nor sleeps.
  But the speech definitely shows another thing—that the system of control in war time has not been settled. We have to wait and see how the war is going to be run, when it comes, but at any rate nothing has been done so far as to working out the relations between the military command and the civil government of the nation. We do not know under what system the war is going to be run. There were one or two passages in the speech which were very good examples of that ponderous style in which the Minister tells us nothing. We were told that in the next war the commanders of the three different Services will keep in touch with each other. That is one of the tremendous results that have been achieved by the right hon. Gentleman the past 18 months. Also, more praiseworthy still, efforts will be made not to send conflicting orders to these three different commanders. The outlook is certainly bright. In another passage relating to air raid precautions he told us that preparations in one zone must necessarily be more complicated than preparations in another zone. I also noticed that the right hon. Gentleman spoke about the whole vast field of problems involved in Imperial Defence, and quoted General Ludendorff on the "total" war. What he said in that respect indicates more clearly than anything else that has been said the need for far more effective co-ordination in these matters than anything that we have yet got.
  I shrink from putting any more questions. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) put a great many, and he had the satisfaction of being told that all his questions have been noted. He knows that, following the Minister's usual practice, that is the last he will ever hear about any of them. There are a few things that I hoped to hear touched upon and did not. There is the question of calcium carbide, an essential matter on which the House can get no information at all as to what is being done. Then there is the question of the location of industry. A Royal Commission has been set up to inquire into the matter. That is very satisfactory, but I imagine that the proceedings of the Commission will take time and we
  2980
  shall not get its report for some time, and then it will require consideration. What is being done meanwhile about the location of industry, and would it not be right and advisable that some Government Department or committee should have the right to advise, or have power of control, in this matter pending and without prejudice to the report of the Royal Commission? I think it is a matter that brooks no delay, and the Government should arm itself with powers pending the report.
  I should like to say one word about the possible evacuation of large civil populations in time of war. I think a great opportunity offers itself to the Minister at this moment. On Friday the August Bank Holiday season will be beginning and either on Friday or Saturday or Monday I would quite seriously suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should visit one of the great London termini and see for himself the spectacle of a happy, good-tempered holiday crowd trying to get out of London, and then, having seen that picture, to imagine what the scene might be if the population of London had to be evacuated under the stress and fear of war. The scene that will be witnessed at any railway station during the coming week-end will be the most convincing proof of the utter inadequacy of any system of transport at all for the evacuation of a large civil population under war conditions.
  There are two short points that I want to mention. First of all, the possibility certainly exists that we may have to import our food through the Western instead of the Eastern ports in time of war. What is being done in regard to an adequate road system of transport from those ports? There is also the question of refrigeration, because I believe only a very inadequate refrigerating plant exists in the West of England. That will certainly be a most important point in regard to supplies of food from the Western ports. I hope that the Minister, in spite of the reply given by the Prime Minister, will take into consideration the question of the Minister for Air being in this House and not in another place. On one occasion the reply was that he had so much to do that it was only fair that he should be in another place and should not be exposed to questions or criticism about what he was doing. In view of the fact that the Air Ministry has not

  2981
  only become almost the most important of the Defence Ministries but that its budget has now reached such a high figure, and will probably reach higher figures yet, it is only right that the Minister should be a Member of this House and should be exposed to questioning and should have to take part in the Debates on his Estimates. I hope that matter may be given further consideration.
  If the review that the Minister gave of his work was not very lucid or convincing, I am not sure that it was his fault, because I cannot help remembering the White Paper out of which his appointment grew and, as an illustration of the lucidity of that White Paper, I should like to quote from the Preamble to it.
  "If war can be banished from the world these vast and world-wide interests"—
  that is the British Empire—
  "will remain free from the dangers of attack."
  I think the Minister has done his very best ever since his appointment to live up to the high standard of the penetratingly just observation that if war can be avoided there will be peace. I do not think there is equal force or lucidity in Lord Baldwin's pledge that our Air Force should be as strong as any within striking distance. That pledge is still unfulfilled. It would be rather comforting to have more definite prospects held out as to when that pledge of the late Prime Minister is going to be implemented. I said that the speech showed that the Minister had been swallowed by the Committee of Imperial Defence, and I think we have to remember that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence was appointed in response to the pressure of public opinion and not in response to any wish of, or any pressure of any sort from, the Defence Services. The three Defence Services never intended to let the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence do very much.
  Sometimes when I hear the right hon. Gentleman speaking and he tells us how very nice he has found the generals, and how very pleasant he has found the admirals, and how very happy his relations with them are, I get the impression of a rather sleek, black cat which has been adopted by three offices, and, knowing that there is a saucer of milk in each one of them, is happy in going from office to office for its saucer of milk and to rub
  2982
  itself against the legs of the admirals and generals and to purr as they scratch his back. I did not anticipate that they would let him do very much. He has not got a staff. Three officers appointed upon the Joint Planning Committee do not constitute a staff. The right hon. Gentleman is never going to be allowed to have a staff, because if he had a staff he might begin to do something, and that would upset the three Defence Ministries very seriously indeed and throw them out of their stride in the great work they do in making all the wrong preparations for the next war.
  A great deal has been said about the Minister being mainly a Minister for Supply. There is a very clear line of demarcation indeed between the Co-ordination of Defence and Supply, and there is no purpose to be served at all by trying to deal with these two problems under one and the same Minister. I notice that in the speech which the Minister made some little time ago he said that he had got on so well with his work that we have now got to the planning stage.
  Sir T. Inskip: We have passed it.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Better still—richer and richer—we have passed it. I am glad to hear that that is so, but is he directing the planning, or, if not, who is directing it? May I point out that if he is trying to get satisfaction from the fact that we have now passed the planning stage, Germany passed the planning stage some three years ago, and, therefore, we are some three years behind with our plans, let alone with our preparations or our armaments? We are that much behind with our plans, and, if we are three years behind with our plans, I think that one of these days we may anticipate something very unpleasant as a result. The right hon. Gentleman may yet be reminded of another speech which he made as far back as 1927, when he said: "You cannot negotiate with a typhoon." He will find, in negotiating with people whose plans are three years ahead of his own, something similar to negotiating after a typhoon. He will find himself in the centre of what we call a revolving storm.
  The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence—and I think that this fact comes out in every speech he makes and in the tributes he pays—has really become the publicity man of the three fighting Ser-

  2983
  vices. They have followed the example of the railways who have appointed a public relations officer or publicity man or something or other. The Services have swept away all that idea of his doing any co-ordinating and they have constituted him the publicity man to the three Services, who so obligingly comes down here and puts over anything that they want put over. He never speaks as the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence. He speaks rather like a very genial and rotund chairman of what I might call the Army and Navy Stores, very genial with his white apron, explaining what large and fine stocks he has in each department. He is well able to meet with the abnormal rush at Christmas or anything like that; he is always looking ahead, his stocks very well laid in. I have heard American students sing the song, "After we have finished commencement, what are we going to commence." I have been waiting ever since his appointment to find out what the right hon. Gentleman is co-ordinating. I have not succeeded in finding out very much about it. I believe that one of his duties at the time he was appointed was, when he found any Departmental delay taking place, to see that they got a move on.
  We have an example of his work in that respect in regard to the Fleet Air Arm. That is a case where, I think, he might have decided that delay was taking place in coming to a decision, and he might have remembered that part of his duties which instructs him to sweep away delay. We have gone on month after month without any decision being come to on this vital matter of the control of the Fleet Air Arm. We have reached such a position in international affairs that the Prime Minister has told us at that Box that a word might start an avalanche. That is the position to which the National Government have brought this country. A whispered word might start an avalanche, and in that state of affairs the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence and the heads of the two Services concerned have shown themselves unable to come to a decision on the question of the Fleet Air Arm, although confusion in that respect might very easily go far to losing us a war in the early stages, if any confusion or uncertainty or dissatisfaction existed as to the control of that arm of the Service.
  Major Procter: Is it not the fact that the party with which the hon. and gallant Gentleman is associated has done everything possible to prevent anything being done in the way of our Defence?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: I do not happen to know if that is the case or not, but if it is the case that the Navy has been obstructive in the matter, then I am at a loss to understand why the Minister has not swept that obstruction out of the way and insisted upon a decision.
  Major Procter: It is the Labour party that I mean.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Unless cooperation and co-ordination exist in peace, do not let it be thought for one moment that the impulse of a common aim in war will overcome the friction of divergent opinion as to how to win the war. You will either get this co-operation and co-ordination in time of peace, or, if you do not get it in time of peace, you certainly will not get it in time of war. You will never remove the divergencies that exist at the time war breaks out, and war will offer endless scope for friction. The time for removing the possibilities of divergence and friction is in peace time. It is no good waiting until war breaks out and thinking that it will be possible to remove them then. The Minister spoke about the system of control in war. Everyone now is abundantly confident, from what has been said from all quarters of the House to-day, that the office of Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence will never stand the test of war. Is there anyone who imagines that, if we find ourselves involved again in a major European war, the office of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence will be one of the essential factors in our system of control of war? Of course, it will not. It will never stand the test of war.
  When the appointment was made it was clear that the chiefs of staff had won. I remember a Conservative newspaper coming out with great headlines across its middle page on the day of the appointment: "No interference with Service chiefs." That was recognised at once and rejoiced over. The chiefs of staff are determined that their committee shall still rule the roost. In these circumstances the Minister for the Co-ordination

  2985
  of Defence has an impossible task. No one man can co-ordinate plans and at the same time be chairman of the principal Officers Supply Committee. The chairman of that committee alone has a one-man job, and a big task. He has to look after industrial expansion, raw materials, the distribution of contracts and all the questions arising from them and from labour. He has what the Americans would call quite an assignment. How can anyone imagine that he can carry out those duties and be able to do anything about the Co-ordination of Defence? Perhaps the time may come when the Minister may be free to have a little recreation and be able to dabble in matters of strategy. Up to now his speeches have been about jigs and gauges, factories and costs. Perhaps one can look forward to a new dispensation when his speeches will tell us something about strategy, plans and co-ordination. Then such dull matters as supply will be things of the past for him.
  It is no good the Minister saying that all is rosy about the supply question, unless we know that the problems of supply are based on proper strategic war plans. Our present war plans seem to be based upon the independent demands of each Service and not upon co-ordinated strategic war plans, and I do not see how the Minister can ever have had time to consider any of these problems for the co-ordination of the three Services. Let me mention three points. I have already referred to one, the Fleet Air Arm. The Minister has been unable to settle that question. Is the defence of the communications in narrow seas a Naval or an Air responsibility, or a joint responsibility? Again, what is the function of the Air Force in coast defence? Who is ultimately responsible in that matter? It is not good waiting until war breaks out to decide what is the function of the three Services. These matters have to be settled now while we have yet time.
  The Government reject the notion of a Minister of Supply, and say that they have done all that is necessary by appointing the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence. He is armed with no authority, as has been brought out in to-day's Debate, but although he has no authority, he has to settle vexed questions like the priorities between the three Services; he has to place enormous orders,
  2986
  and he has to be able to control costs and prices. So far from the handling of the programme of £1,500,000,000 of rearmament being too much for him when the Air Minister goes on sick leave, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence takes on the Air Ministry and runs that in addition to all his other duties. I am reminded of the man who when taking on a busy job asked whether there was a clay field handy, because he thought he would like to make a few bricks in his spare time. I wonder how the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence occupies his spare time.
  Let me say a few words on the question of profiteering, which seems to me to have been most inadequately dealt with. I must be careful to keep in order. I should have thought that there was a good case for the Government having directors on the boards of the big armament firms, which have such enormous contracts from the Government. It is clear that labour unrest is bound to follow if public opinion is not satisfied on this question of profiteering. Whenever the question is raised, all that we get is a bland assurance, given in the blandest way of the right hon. Gentleman, that no arms manufacturer would ever do anything so ungentlemanly and so unpatriotic as to make excessive profits out of the country's need. I do not think that is good enough, and I know that my hon. Friends on these benches think that it is not good enough. I should like to ask what is being done about the recommendations of the Select Committee on Estimates in regard to profiteering, and especially as regards sub-contracts and what are known as on-costs.
  I can only say, in conclusion, that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence cannot possibly continue to carry this burden unless it is the case that his appointment is very largely camouflage. If he is expected to carry out a quarter of the duties nominally assigned to him I feel certain that he would be unable to do it, and that is why I suspect that there is a good deal of camouflage about it. We require evidence that planning is separated from supply, that the functions of the three Services are being thought out and allocated, and that war plans are being prepared. Above all, and far the most important, we require evidence that the

  2987
  system of control, civil and military, in war time, is being thought out and a skeleton of that system is being set up.
  9.13 p.m.
  Major Mills: I want to put a question to my right hon. Friend, and I am emboldened to do so because when he was answering the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) he said that the problem of feeding the people of this country in time of war had a high place in the consideration of the Government. The question I want to put is this: Will he use his good offices and his influence with the Air Ministry to ensure that when sites for new aerodromes are being sought, as little damage as possible will be done to agriculture, and that they will choose downland or similar poor land rather than first-class agricultural land? It is a big problem, because many new aerodromes are being sought for and the cumulative effects of ruthless use of compulsory powers would inflict very great damage on the industry. I will not argue the matter but will leave it as a question to my right hon. Friend who, although he referred to himself as a decayed lawyer, has, I know, one of the most acute minds in the House. I only ask for an assurance that when sites for aerodromes are being sought due regard will be paid to agricultural interests.
  9.15 p.m.
  Sir Percy Harris: I think the Debate has justified the use of the last day of Supply in discussing the Department presided over by the right hon. Gentleman. We are proposing to reduce his salary, but I can assure him that it is not because of any personal antipathy to himself. There is no more popular Member in the House of Commons. He is a perfect House of Commons man and embodies the best traditions of the House. He is always sweetly reasonable, and good humoured, and always takes criticism in such good part. But I am afraid he has taken his office without power. He relinquished the more remunerative post of Attorney-General, no doubt inspired by a sense of public duty. But there he is, in this position, manufactured to meet a public clamour. There was a long controversy led by the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). Many names were mentioned for the post of Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, and the
  2988
  right hon. Gentleman's appointment came somewhat as a surprise. He boasts that his staff is small, and no one can say in these days of large expenditure that he has been extravagant in that respect.
  Our complaint against him is that he has not taken his position seriously enough. He seems to regard himself as a fifth wheel of the coach, and that all he has to do is to run around and make himself pleasant to the high and powerful Departments whose work it was for him to co-ordinate. These Departments have great traditions behind them, and highly organised and efficient staffs. They are naturally jealous of their prerogatives—the Admiralty, the War Office, the Air Ministry, the Home Office and the Ministry of Transport. One of the reasons for the clamour in the House and in the country was a feeling that the nation was not getting the most efficient work out of its defence Departments. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) has said quire rightly that the House has been profoundly disappointed with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. A great part of his speech was taken up in defending the Committee of Imperial Defence. With great respect I do not think the Committee of Imperial Defence needs any defence. It was built up before the War, justified its existence during the War, and is recognised as capable of working out the strategy of our Imperial Defence policy.
  The right hon. Gentleman had a different but not a competing job. His duty was to bring these great organisations into one, to prevent overlapping and friction, of which the House was conscious and of which the: Services complained. The Debates on the Defence. Estimates are of course limited by the Rules of Order. We could not debate the defence problem as a whole, and the right hon. Gentleman was appointed to this new post in order to get over that difficulty. I am afraid from his speech we feel that, in spite of these 18 months of tactful and good humoured work, he has not brought real co-ordination any nearer. The right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair), who opened the discussion, dealt mainly with home defence. That was one of the special reasons for raising this discussion this afternoon. The Minister dealt with many things, with the

  2989
  arrangements to he made, the responsibilities of Service Departments, commanders in the field, he roamed generally over Imperial Defence, but ignored most of the points made by the right hon. Member for Caithness.
  I have a very vivid memory of the outbreak of War in 1914. While the Expeditionary Force was going overseas, silently without friction, largely because of the genius of Lord Haldane, Lord Haig and Lord French, the civil population was in great turmoil and great crowds gathered outside Buckingham Palace, impeding the police and the movement of traffic, anxious to know how best they could serve the nation. The population had no experience of what a great war meant. The Government at that time had to deal with problems which were quite new. The Government can make no such plea to-day. We have had four years terrible experience which should teach us a lesson of what is likely to happen in case we should be faced with the outbreak of another war. I remember that two days after the outbreak of the War I was rash enough to write a letter to the "Times." Strange to say they gave it great prominence. I made certain proposals for the best use of the civil population and the enthusiasm which existed. The result was that my letter box was crowded with thousands of letters from all parts of the country from persons all anxious to serve.
  It became necessary to create an organisation to deal with this correspondence. Some men had curious ideas of what was likely to happen. Wealthy business men anticipated riots, but at no time was the civil population more quiet and more peaceful than in the first weeks of the War. Others anticipated great unemployment, and the Prince of Wales Fund was opened and a large sum raised to deal with the problem of unemployment. However, unemployment was conspicuous by its absence, and labour was quickly absorbed by new industries. Training corps sprang up all over the country; in every town and village men were busy preparing for service. I remember that H. G. Wells and Conan Doyle in their respective villages were drilling and training men. It developed on such a large scale that the War Office had to prohibit all kinds of volunteers and training corps and the prohibition remained good until November.
  2990
  In November there was either a scare of invasion, or it became necessary to send every available man overseas, and Lord Kitchener decided to make use of all voluntary services. I was appointed along with Lord Desborough to make use of all this voluntary effort. At one time there were something like 1, 000,000 men organised and trained throughout the length of the land. Some hon. Members will remember ancient gentlemen wearing armlets drilling in the various towns and villages. These men were over military age, and my colleagues and I were charged with the duty of organising and providing machinery for making the best use of their services. There was no wool cloth available. There was a shortage of rifles, and these men had to use rifles of all types. But they did great service. They dug the trenches round London, and towards the end of the war mounted a large number of anti-aircraft guns and relieved the regular Forces. But I do not want to deal with this ancient history. What I want to impress on the House is the need of learning from experience. It is one of the duties of the Minister to think out plans for making use of the whole civil population in time of war.
  Mr. Gallacher: Not me.
  Sir P. Harris: We should not be as greatly surprised as we were in 1914. We want to be satisfied that the industrial life of the country has been thought out. My right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness raised the point as to the location of industry in the Metropolitan area. We have a Commission sitting to inquire into the whole problem of the location of industry but that will take time. It will be 18 months or two years before they can bring out their report. But our industry is highly organised. How far has the Minister worked out how best our industrial organisation can be utilised in time of war? We do not want to wait until a crisis comes before thinking out a policy. The same applies to transport. One of the jobs of the volunteer force was to make use of and organise our transport, not only our railways and commercial transport, but private cars.
  Motor transport has enormously developed during the last 20 years. How far have the Government worked out plans for making use of our motor cars, private and commercial, in time of war? If war comes, the whole industrial system

  2991
  is put out of gear. The motor industry has a right to know how far the Government have thought out plans to utilise our transport service to the best advantage. The Minister ought to have a say in the development of our road system. We had a Debate the other day on the Ministry of Transport. Transport is an integral part of national defence. It may be necessary in London and other industrial centres to evacuate our population rapidly. We have seen some of the appalling things that have happened in Spain and the panic of the civilian population. If the tragedy of an attack on London took place and if there were panic—incidentally, the best way to prevent panic is for the Minister to prove to the population that he has thought out plans to deal with panic—but if there were panic, to protect, move and feed a population of 9,500,000 would be a gigantic undertaking, and it should be thought out now.
  The right hon. Gentleman has surrounded himself with a certain amount of mystery and secrecy. Naturally he is inclined to meet challenges for information with the answer that it would not be in the public interest to disclose his plans. That may apply in reference to expeditionary forces, arms and means of attack as opposed to defence; it is not a good argument in dealing with the problem of home defence. We reveal no information to any potential enemy by proving to our own people that the right hon. Gentleman has plans to deal with every phase of our social and industrial life if we are faced with the misfortune of an outbreak of war. That means that all the Departments of State should be brought together to act as one whole. The right hon. Gentleman rather contemptuously swept aside a suggestion that there should be a totalitarian policy for dealing with an emergency. We are a democratic people and like to feel that we have a share in the management of our own defence, and the right thing for the Minister to do now is to make clear to the nation through this House that he has brought the various Departments into a working harmony, and that he has a common policy for home defence.
  9.34 p.m.
  Major Procter: It seems to me that one of the most pressing problems of the hour is the problem of fuel supply and its relation to our internal transport. I am well aware that it is now a well settled policy
  2992
  of the Navy to confine its fuel to oil, largely due to the fact of the greater heating power per pound of oil in comparison with coal, and due also to the fact that the use of oil gives a greater cruising radius to every ship that uses it. If hon. Members will cast their minds back to the last War, they will remember that it was not long before practically the whole of the private cars of the people were put off the roads owing to the fact that it was essential to conserve the fuel supplies for our Fighting Services. I would like to know whether, in the wide survey made by the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, attention has been given to the dislocation of our transport services that might occur in any future war from the same cause as dislocated them during the last War. It must be remembered that a great deal of the movement of our goods now takes place by motor transport, whereas in 1914 motor transport was a negligible factor in our commercial life. Unless something is done to find an alternative fuel to oil, there will be a dislocation of our motor transport and the cessation of all private transport, and it will be very difficult to move to the centres of our population the food that is required not only to keep the people well fed, but satisfied, and free from panic.
  I know from words spoken by him that apparently the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence is not very much in favour of the extension of hydrogenation plants and low-temperature carbonisation plants as an alternative to oil supplies. He said in his speech this evening that if the number of those plants was increased, they would become a greater target for the enemy. That may be so, owing to the construction of our hydrogenation plants as at present. At the moment, we have to put those plants in the neighbourhood of coal mines, and they are all above the surface. It seems to me that steps should now be taken to put all the stores down in the mines, where they will be free from air attack, and to have only the machinery above ground, if necessary—for I am not sure whether it is even necessary to have any part of the hydrogenation plant above ground. I think that it could be put underground and thus freed from the dangers of air attack.
  I am not in favour of hydrogenation under the present system as a peace policy, for it is a highly expensive and

  2993
  uneconomic proposition, owing to the high capital charges of the plant; but as a Defence measure, it is worthy of serious consideration and extension. If there be a war, it will be essential to have large supplies of fuel. Wherever coke is made, for every ton of coal that is turned into hard coke or into smokeless fuel, five cwts. of volatile matter is released. At the present time, with the greatly increased industrial activity and pressure of work, there are huge demands for coke and steel, and there will be an immense amount of free hydrogen which, in the past, in low-temperature carbonisation, has been put into the air because, owing to our archaic laws concerning gas companies, these producing plants have been unable to put gas pipes under the roads, as they have been forbidden by Act of Parliament to do so, and a great deal of this gas has been wasted.
  What I suggest for the consideration of the Minister is that preparations should now be made to turn the whole of our internal transport system from petrol or liquid fuel consumption to the consumption of coal gas. Let plant for the production of coal gas be laid down in the neighbourhood of our mines, and right along the high roads to and from our cities, at distances of 10 or 20 miles; instead of having petrol pumps as at present, have gas laid on so that lorries could use that gas, which they could carry in a form of container, getting a new container every 10 miles, thus utilising the coal gas, of which there will be an abundance owing to the production of coke, and helping to save essential fuel supplies for our Defence Services.
  I am certain that this problem has been thought out even in my own constituency, where great and fine minds conversant with the production of the by-products of coal, things which are essentially a war industry, could devise and give to the Minister, if necessary, the complete plans whereby in the event of war, we could switch over from oil fuel to gaseous fuel. That, of course, would necessitate the designing of a new carburettor so that the 2 per cent. explosive mixture could be used even in private motor cars. As these things cannot be worked out in war time, I put this problem, in all modesty, for the consideration of the technical experts so that they may consider the coordination of Defence with transport.
  9.43 p.m.
  Sir T. Inskip: With the leave of the House, I would like to make some observations in reply to a few questions that have been put to me since I addressed the House. The further speeches that have been made have indicated the very wide variety of topics which are supposed to be attached to my duties. The hon. Baronet the Member for South West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) expressed regret that I had not adequately replied to the questions put by his right hon. Friend. Perhaps I may remind the hon. Baronet that his right hon. Friend addressed to me many questions which were of such a character that even the right hon. Gentleman himself did not expect an answer to them, so that I think I may be excused for not having attempted to answer them. Let me refer to two or three of the questions of which I was able to take note. The right hon. Gentleman asked how many batteries there were in our anti-aircraft defences, what was the calibre of the guns and what was their range? Is it suggested that I should answer those questions? Suppose that any hon. Member wanted to look at those batteries and to take photographs and notes of them, do hon. Members think that the authorities would allow even the hon. Baronet to engage in that activity? Exactly the same results would be produced if I were to inform the House of those details. Indeed the right hon. Gentleman, to do him justice, said he would not expect an answer to those searching questions.
  To give another illustration he said that the provision of the balloon barrage was hanging fire and that our balloons could rise to only 10,000 feet, while the French had a barrage that would rise to 20,000 feet. Does the right hon. Gentleman or the hon. Baronet expect me to discuss here the reasons why we should have a balloon barrage which rises to only 10,000 feet? To do so would surely be to give an undesirable advantage to those for whose reception the balloon barrage is intended, but I assure the right hon. Gentleman that it has a very definite purpose, and that if 10,000 feet has been selected as the greatest height to which this barrage should go, that has been done for a particular purpose in connection with the other defences of which it forms only a part.

  2995
  The other questions which the right hon. Gentleman put to me were of such a character and were poured out in such volume that I think hon. Members generally will assent to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) said, namely, that I could not be expected to answer them in this Debate. The hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut. - Commander Fletcher) suggested that when it was said that these matters would be noted, it meant that they would be noted and that that would be the end of it. I think the hon. and gallant Member does not do justice to those who are indeed paying attention to these various matters. He himself put a great number of questions. He began with a request for information about calcium carbide. That matter is the subject of an inquiry by a committee which is doing its best at my request to present its report not later than the middle of September. I hope we shall then be able to deal with any legislation which may be necessary. The hon. and gallant Member also asked what had been done about the location of industry and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness raised a similar point. The Commission may report and I think will report a great deal sooner than the time anticipated, and in any case, without statutory powers, it would be impossible to interfere with the rights of private persons in the selection of locations for industries, though I agree that something ought to be done to influence the location of industry as far as possible, in regard to places where industries may be easily defended. That is being considered and some provision made for taking steps in that direction.
  I hardly know how to deal with the various suggestions and criticisms that have been made as to my powers or rather my lack of powers. They are criticisms which it is hardly proper for me to answer. If anybody ought to answer them, it is the Prime Minister, but I do wish to say, here and now, that I believe I have more power than hon. and right hon. Gentlemen think they can detect in the language of the White Paper. I listened to the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Nuneaton on that subject. His methods are not my methods. He seems to think that
  2996
  because my relations with the Chiefs of Staff are friendly and agreeable, therefore I must be a failure. Judging from the way in which the hon. and gallant Gentleman criticised me, I gather that his methods would be very different from those which I use but I believe my methods to be right and that they give me a power and an influence which is by no means negligible. I believe that anybody in my position, using the same methods and the powers which I have, can exercise a real influence upon the settlement of many of these questions which have been Ira rationed and I by no means consider that I ought to stand here in a white sheet, because there is no sign of any disturbance which would necessitate my separation from the generals or admirals or air marshals.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton, however, delivered himself of one sentence which surprised me, not by reason of its inaccuracy but by reason of its acuteness and accuracy. He said that supply must be based upon a proper strategic conception. I wonder whether, when he made that statement, he appreciated the fact that that is the real case for the concentration in one office of the duties of superintending supply and organising or considering the strategic conceptions which underlie supply. The question of supply is very often, indeed generally, connected with or dependent upon questions of policy which in themselves are strategic questions. To give one instance, the size of the Army, the use of an Expeditionary Force and the provision that has to be made for supplementing an Expeditionary Force, must depend on the provision made in advance of war for keeping a force of that size in the field. You cannot consider the two questions separately. They are closely interlocked, and when the hon. and gallant Member talked about my inability to perform two separate duties, I would point out that they are not so much two duties as two parts of the same duty.
  Then I was told by the hon. and gallant Member that I had done nothing to prevent profiteering. If he has read the last report of the Public Accounts Committee he should be satisfied with the steps which the Air Ministry in particular have taken in connection with their contracts. I have never said what the hon. and gallant Member suggested I had said, namely, that no armament manufacturer ever

  2997
  made a profit. That, of course, is not true, nor would it be a good thing if it were true. One of the difficulties of getting to work the vast supply organisation which is now being set up is that you have to create new capacity. The manufacturers of the equipment which the forces need have not found it possible to continue in those lines of industry during the hard times through which they passed while disarmament was the main policy of the Government and there is no advantage in starving or depriving of a fair rate of profit those manufacturers upon whom this country must depend for the provision of vital equipment.
  A good deal of criticism has been made of my statement concerning the arrangements with regard to passive defence. I have been given instances, which I was not aware of before the Debate, of the active planning and organisation which had taken place even before the stage which has now been reached of consulting local authorities as to their co-operation with the Government. To give a few illustrations almost at random, I am told that, in connection with fire brigade services, designs of plant have been completed and initial bulk orders have been given for equipment which will be available for local fire brigade services, to which, of course, the Government will pass on the supplies. Similar orders have been placed for mechanical vehicles that are required by the fire brigades. An initial order for 100 miles of hose is being placed, and steps have been taken to provide fire brigades with incendiary bombs, in order that they may observe the effects and practise the steps that are necessary to cope with them. I might go on, page after page, informing the House of the actual steps that have been taken. As to the suggestion that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary or my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary have been doing nothing until this moment, a great deal of action, not mere planning, has been undertaken and brought, I think, to a fruitful end.
  It is right, as I have another two or three minutes, that I should come back to the question raised by the right hon. Gentleman about anti-aircraft defence, which, I am told, has been the substance of this Debate. I have so often stated the position that I really think that any hon. Member who has listened to me must be well aware of the measures that
  2998
  have been taken and of the organisation which is responsible for the active defences. As everybody knows, the guns and the searchlights are under the control of the Army, and the fighter aircraft are under the control of the Air Ministry, but in order to show how these plans, which I have announced to the House once or twice, are still under consideration and are being carried to completion, I may tell the House that a senior Army Staff Officer, with special qualifications and experience, has been appointed to the staff of the Air Officer Commanding in Chief, Fighter Command, in order to act as liaison between these two Departments that are responsible for preparing antiaircraft defences.
  I am told that searchlights or projectors are short. Of course they are short, but the fault is that the orders were not given early enough. It is one of the branches of supply which has been most difficult to organise. These projectors and searchlights are coming along in large quantities now, and the difficulty in placing them out to the Territorial divisions is that there has been an absence of accommodation. That is now being provided. So far as guns are concerned, the guns are now coming out in large quantities, and the arrangements for forging and mounting them are at a stage which will enable the production to proceed. I recognise, as everybody does, that it would be much pleasanter to be able to give everybody the equipment they want at the moment, and if that could be done there would be no problem of supply. The fact is that these questions of supply are now at a stage when delivery is our experience, and we are in advance of the proposition which the right hon. Member for Epping laid down in one of his speeches, when he said, that in the first year you make your plans, in the next year you lay down your plants and organise your tools, and in the third year you get your deliveries. We have just begun the second year, and we are already getting deliveries of these things. When hon. and right hon. Gentlemen rather taunt me with not having provided the necessary anti-aircraft equipment, all that I can say is that I believe that the supply organisation to which I have referred has done a remarkable task in organising the capacity for providing the firms that are qualified to make this equipment,

  2999
  and that, being in the period of delivery which we have now reached, it will be possible in the early autumn to appeal for that full flood of recruits which up to now has been held back, partly by lack of accommodation and partly by lack of the necessary equipment. I hope that these supplementary observations which I have made may do something to allay
  the anxieties which the hon. Baronet felt. In reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the New Forest (Major Mills), I will certainly ask the Air Ministry to give attention to the considerations which he mentioned.
  Question put, "That'£244,016' stand part of the Resolution."
  The House divided: Ayes, 306; Noes, 141.

  Division No. 313.]

  AYES.

  [10.0 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Hannah, I. C.

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Harbord, A.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Cross, R. H.

  Harvey, Sir G.

  Apsley, Lord

  Crossley, A. C.

  Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Assheton, R.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Hepworth, J.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  De Chair, S. S.

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Balniel, Lord

  De la Bère, R.

  Higgs, W. F.

  Barrie, Sir C. C.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Denville, Alfred

  Holmes, J. S.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Dodd, J. S.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Bait, Sir A. L.

  Doland, G. F.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Drewe, C.

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Blair, Sir R.

  Dugdale, Captain T. L.

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Hulbert, N. J.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Hunter, T.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Bracken, B.

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Elmley, Viscount

  Keeling, E. H.

  Brass, Sir W.

  Emery, J. F.

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Kimball, L.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Errington, E.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Bull, B. B.

  Erskine-Hill, A. G.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Latham, Sir P.

  Burghley, Lord

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Everard, W. L.

  Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Butcher, H. W.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Fleming, E. L.

  Lewis, O.

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Furness, S. N.

  Lindsay. K. M.

  Cary, R. A.

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Little, Sir E. Graham

  Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Gledhill, G.

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Gluckstein, L. H.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Channon, H.

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Logan, D. G.

  Charlton, A. E. L.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Christie, J. A.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Lyons, A. M.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

  Granville, E. L.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Grettan-Doyle, Sir N.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Carry, Sir Reginald

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Clydesdale, Marquess of

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Grimston, R. V.

  McKie, J. H.

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Magnay, T.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

  Maitland, A.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

  Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Cox, H. B. T.

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Markham, S. F.

  Marsden,Commander A.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Rayner, Major R. H.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-(N'thw'h)

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

  Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Remer, J. R.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Moreing, A. C.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Morgan, R. H.

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Thomas, J. P. L

  Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Rowlands, G.

  Touche, G. C.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

  Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Munro, P.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

  Salt, E. W.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Savory, Sir Servington

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Scott, Lord William

  Wayland, Sir W. A

  Patrick, C. M.

  Selley, H. R.

  Wells, S. R.

  Peake, O.

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Peat, C. U.

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wav rtree)

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Peters, Dr. S. J.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Petherick, M.

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Pilkington, R.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  Wragg, H.

  Radford, E. A.

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Spens, W. P.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Storey, S.

  Ward and Lieut.-Colonel Kerr.

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  NOES.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Milner, Major J.

  Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Montague, F.

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

  Adamson, W. M.

  Griffiths, C. A. (Hemsworth)

  Muff, G.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Nathan, Colonel H. L.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Groves, T. E.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

  Noel-Baker, P. J.

  Banfield, J. W.

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Hayday, A.

  Owen, Major G.

  Barr, J.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Paling, W.

  Batey, J.

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Parker, J.

  Bellenger, F. J.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Broad, F. A.

  Hollins, A.

  Price, M. P.

  Brown, C. (Mansfield)

  Hopkin, D.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Jagger, J.

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Buchanan, G.

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Ridley, G.

  Burke. W. A.

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Riley, B.

  Cape, T.

  John, W.

  Ritson, J.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

  Chater, D.

  Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  Cocks, F. S.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

  Cove, W. G.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Sanders, W. S.

  Daggar, G.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Sexton, T. M.

  Dalton, H.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Shinwell, E.

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Lathan, G.

  Short, A.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Lawson, J. J.

  Silkin, L.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Leach, W.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Day, H.

  Leonard, W.

  Simpson, F. B.

  Dobbie, W.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

  Lunn, W.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Ede, J. C.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  McGovern, J.

  Stephen, C.

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  MacLaren, A.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Foot, D. M.

  Maclean, N.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Gallacher, W.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Thurtle, E.

  Gardner, B. W.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Tinker, J. J.

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Marshall, F.

  Viant, S. P.

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Mothers, G.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Gibson, R. (Greenock)

  Maxton, J.

  Walker, J.

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Messer, F.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  White, H. Graham

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Sir Percy Harris and Sir Hugh Seely.

  Question, "That this House doth agree With the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

  It being after Ten of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 14, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolution under consideration.
  Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Classes I to IX of the Civil Estimates, the Revenue Departments Estimates, the Navy Estimates, the Army Estimates, and the Air Estimates.
  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1937.
  CLASS I.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class I of the Civil Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  CLASS II.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class II of the Civil Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  CLASS III.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class III of the Civil Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  CLASS IV.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class IV of the Civil Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  CLASS V.
  Question put,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in repect of Class V of the Civil Estimates,"
  The House divided: Ayes, 310; Noes, 138.

  Division No. 314.]

  AYES.

  [10.13 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Bull, B. B.

  Cross, R. H.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Burghley, Lord

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Apsley, Lord

  Butcher, H. W.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Assheton, R.

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Carver, Major W. H.

  De Chair, S. S.

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Cary, R. A.

  De la Bre, R.

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Denville, Alfred

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Dodd, J. S.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Doland, G. F.

  Balniel, Lord

  Channon, H.

  Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Drewe, C.

  Barrie, Sir C. C.

  Christie, J. A.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Dugdale, Captain T. L.

  Beit, Sir A. L.

  Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

  Duggan, H. J.

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Dunglass, Lord

  Bernays, R. H.

  Clarry, Sir Reginald

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Clydesdale, Marquess of

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Boothby, R. J. C.

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Elmley, Viscount

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Emery, J. F.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M, (E'nburgh, W.)

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Bracken, B.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Cox, H. B. T.

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Brass, Sir W.

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Errington, E.

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

  Erskine-Hill, A. G.

  Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

  Crooke, J. S.

  Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Everard, W. L.

  Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Fleming, E. L.

  Lewis, O.

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Furness, S. N.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Rowlands, G.

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Little, Sir E. Graham-

  Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

  Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Gledhill, G.

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Gluckstein, L. H.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Salt, E. W.

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Lyons, A. M.

  Sandys, E. D.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Savory, Sir Servington

  Granville, E. L.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Scott, Lord William

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Selley, H. R.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

  McKie, J. H.

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Magnay, T.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Maitland, A.

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

  Makins, Brig-Gen. E.

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Markham, S. F.

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Marsden, Commander A.

  Spens. W. P.

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Hannah, I. C.

  Mellor, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

  Storey, S.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark N.)

  Harbord, A.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Harvey, Sir G.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Moreing, A. C.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Morgan, R. H.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Hepworth, J.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Nall, Sir J.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Higgs, W. F.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Touche, G. C.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Holmes, J. S.

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Patrick, C. M.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Hopkinson, A.

  Peaks, O.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Peat, C. U.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Peters, Dr. S. J.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Petherick, M.

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Hulbert, N. J.

  Pilkington, R.

  Wayland, Sir W. A

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Wells, S. R.

  Hunter, T.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Williams, H. C. (Croydon, S.)

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Radford, E. A.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Wragg, H.

  Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Kimball, L.

  Rayner, Major R. H.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

  Major Sir George Davies and Mr.

  Latham, Sir P.

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Munro.

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Remer, J. R.

  NOES.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

  Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

  Dalton, H.

  Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

  Broad, F. A.

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Brown, C. (Mansfield)

  Davies, R, J. (Westhoughton)

  Adamson, W. M.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Ammon, C. G.

  Buchanan, G.

  Day, H.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Burke, W. A.

  Dobbie, W.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Cape, T.

  Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

  Banfield, J. W.

  Chater, D.

  Ede, J. C.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

  Barr, J.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Batey, J.

  Cove, W. G.

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Bellenger, F.J.

  Daggar, G.

  Foot, D. M.

  3006

  3007

  Gallacher, W.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Sanders, W. S.

  Gardner, B. W.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Sexton, T. M.

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  McGovern, J.

  Shinwell, E.

  Gibson, R. (Greenock)

  MacLaren, A.

  Short, A.

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Maclean, N.

  Silkin, L.

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Simpson, F. B.

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Marshall, F.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Mathers, G.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Maxton, J.

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

  Messer, F.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Milner, Major J.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  Montague, F.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

  Stephen, C.

  Hayday, A.

  Muff, G.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Nathan, Colonel H. L.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Thurtle, E.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Noel-Baker, P. J.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Hollins, A.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Viant, S. P.

  Hopkin, D.

  Owen, Major G.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Jagger, J.

  Paling, W.

  Walker, J.

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Parker, J.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Watson, W. McL.

  John, W.

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  White, H. Graham

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Price, M. P.

  Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

  Kelly, W. T.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  Kirby, B. V.

  Ridley, G.

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Riley, B.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Lathan, G.

  Ritson, J.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Leach, W.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Leonard, W.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Leslie, J. R.

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Lunn, W.

  Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

  Mr. Charleton and Mr. Groves.

  CLASS VI.
  Question put,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions re-
  ported in respect of Class VI of the Civil Estimates,"
  The House divided: Ayes, 307; Noes. 140.

  Division No. 315.]

  AYES.

  10.24 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Burghley, Lord

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Butcher, H. W.

  De Chair, S. S.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  De la Bère, R.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Cartland, J. F. H.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Apsley, Lord

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Denville, Alfred

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Cary, R. A.

  Dodd, J. S.

  Assheton, R.

  Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Doland, G. F.

  Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Drewe, C.

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Duckworth, W. F. (Moss Side)

  Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

  Channon, H.

  Duggan, H. J.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Christie, J. A.

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Balniel, Lord

  Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Barrie, Sir C. C.

  Clydesdale, Marquess of

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Elmley, Viscount

  Beit, Sir A. L.

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Emery, J. F.

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Emrys-Evan, P. V.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

  Errington, E.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Erskine-Hill, A. G.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Cox, H. B. T.

  Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Boulton, W. W.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Everard W. L.

  Bowyer, Comdr. R. T.

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Flides, Sir H.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

  Fleming, E. L.

  Bracken, B.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C

  Furness, S. N.

  Brass, Sir W.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Cross, R. H.

  Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

  Crossley, A. C.

  Gledhill, G.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Gluckstein L. H.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Bull, B. B.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Locker-Lampoon, Comdr. O. S.

  Rowlands, G.

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

  Granville E. L.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Lyons, A. M.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Salt, E. W.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Sandys, E. D.

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

  Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Savery, Sir Servington

  Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Scott, Lord William

  Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

  McKie, J. H.

  Selley, H. R.

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Magnay, T.

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Maitland, A.

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Hannah, I. C.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Markham, S. F.

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Harbord, A.

  Marsden, Commander A.

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Harvey, Sir G.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Mellor, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Spans. W. P.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Hepworth, J.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

  Storey, S.

  Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

  Morgan, R. H.

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Higgs, W. F.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Holmes, J. S.

  Munro, P.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Hope,

  Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Nall, Sir J. Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Hulbert, N. J.

  Patrick, C. M.

  Touche, G. C.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Peat, C. U.

  Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

  Hunter, T.

  Petherick, M.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Pilkington, R.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Keeling, E. H.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Radford, E. A.

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Wayland, Sir W. A

  Kimball, L.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Wells, S. R.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Latham, Sir P.

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Rayner, Major R. H.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

  Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

  Levy, T.

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Lewis, O.

  Remer, J. R.

  Wragg, H.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Little, Sir E. Graham-

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Captain Dugdale and Mr. Grimston.

  NOES.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

  Cape, T.

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Chater, D.

  Foot, D. M.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Gallacher, W.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Gardner, B. W.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Cove, W. G.

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Daggar, G.

  Gibson, R. (Greenock)

  Banfield, J. W.

  Dalton, H.

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Barnes, A. J.

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Barr, J.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Batey, J.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Bellenger, F. J.

  Day, H.

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

  Dobbie, W.

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Broad, F. A.

  Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

  Groves, T. E.

  Brown, C. (Mansfield)

  Ede, J. C.

  Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Buchanan, G.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  Burke, W. A.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

  Hayday, A.

  Marshall, F.

  Silkin, L.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Maxton, J.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Messer, F.

  Simpson, F. B.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Milner, Major J.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Holdsworth, H.

  Montague, F.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Hollins, A.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Hopkin, D.

  Muff, G.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'Iy)

  Jagger, J.

  Nathan, Colonel H. L.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Noel-Baker, P. J.

  Stephen, C.

  John, W.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Owen, Major G.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Paling, W.

  Thurtle, E.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Parker, J.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Parkinson, J. A

  Viant, S. P.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Price, M. P.

  Walker, J.

  Lathan, G.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Leach, W.

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Watson, W. McL.

  Leonard, W.

  Ridley, G.

  White, H. Graham

  Leslie, J. R.

  Riley, B.

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Lunn, W.

  Ritson, J.

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland. N.)

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  McGovern, J.

  Sanders, W. S.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  MacLaren, A.

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  Maclean, N.

  Sexton, T. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Shinwell, E.

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Short, A.

  CLASS VII.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class VII of the Civil Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  CLASS VIII.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class VIII of the Civil Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  CLASS IX.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution
  reported in respect of Class IX of the Civil Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1937.
  Question,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Revenue Departments Estimates,"
  put, and agreed to.
  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1937.
  Question put,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Navy Estimates,"
  The House divided: Ayes, 325; Noes, 8.

  Division No. 316.]

  AYES.

  [10.36 p.m.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Butcher, H. W.

  Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

  Beit, Sir A. L.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Cartland, J. N. H.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Bernays, R. H.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Cary, R. A.

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Blair, Sir R.

  Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

  Bossom, A. C.

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Apsley, Lord

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Channon, H.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Assheton, R.

  Bracken, B.

  Christie, J. A.

  Astor, Major Hon. J. J. Dover)

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon, Winston S.

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Brass, Sir W.

  Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

  Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

  Clydesdale, Marquess of

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Bull, B. B.

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Balniel, Lord

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Burghley, Lord

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith. S.)

  Barrie, Sir C. C.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Cox, H. B. T.

  Hepworth, J.

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Radford, E. A.

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

  Higgs, W. F.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Holmes, J. S.

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Cross, R. H.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Crossley, A. C.

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Rayner, Major R. H.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Hulbert, N. J.

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Ramer, J. R.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Hunter, T.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  De Chair, S. S

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Do la Bère, R.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Denville, Alfred

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Dodd, J. S.

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Rowlands, G.

  Doland, G. F.

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

  Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Drewe, C.

  Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Kimball, L.

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Duggan, H. J.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Salt, E. W.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Latham, Sir P.

  Sandys, E. D.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Savery, Sir Servington

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Scott, Lord William

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Lewis, O.

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  Elmley, Viscount

  Liddall, W. S.

  Selley, H. R.

  Emery, J. F.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Little, Sir E. Graham-

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Errington, E.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. 0. S.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Erskine-Hill, A. G

  Loftus, P. C.

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Somervell. Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Lyons, A. M.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  Everard, W. L.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Fildes, Sir H.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Spens, W. P.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  Fleming, E. L.

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Foot, D. M.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Storey, S.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  Furness, S. N.

  McKie, J. H.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Magnay, T.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Maitland, A.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Gledhill, C.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Gluckstein, L. H.

  Manningham-Buller. Sir M.

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Markham, S. F.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Marsden, Commander A.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Touche, G. C.

  Granville, E. L.

  Mellor, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

  Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Moreing, A. C.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

  Morgan, R. H.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Wayland, Sir W. A

  Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Munro, P.

  Wells, S. R.

  Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

  Nall, Sir J.

  White, H. Graham

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Guy, J. C. M.

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hannah, I. C.

  Owen, Major G.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Harbord, A.

  Patrick, C. M.

  Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  Peake, O.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Harvey, Sir G.

  Peat, C. U.

  Wragg, H.

  Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

  Petherick, M.

  Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Pilkington, R.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Captain Hope and Captain Dugdale.

  NOES.

  Barr, J.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Buchanan, G.

  Maxton, J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Messer, F.

  Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Stephen.

  Gallacher, W.

  Silverman, S. S.

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1937.
  Question put,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Army Estimates."
  The House divided: Ayes, 325; Noes, 7.

  Division No. 317.]

  AYES.

  [10.46 p.m.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Griffith, F. Kingsley(M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

  Cox, H. B. T.

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Grimston, R. V.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

  Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H.(Drake)

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Crooke, J. S.

  Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C

  Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Apsley, Lord

  Cross, R. H.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Assheton, R.

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Hannah, I. C.

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Harbord, A.

  Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Harvey, Sir G.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  De Chair, S. S.

  Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

  Balniel, Lord

  De la Bère, R.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Barrie, Sir C. C.

  Denville, Alfred

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T P. H.

  Dodd, J. S.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Beit, Sir A. L.

  Doland, G. F.

  Hepworth, J.

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Bernays, R. H.

  Drewe, C.

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Higgs, W. F.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Dugdale, Captain T. L.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Duggan, H. J.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Holmes, J. S.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Bracken, B.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Brass, Sir W.

  Elmley, Viscount

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Emery, J. F.

  Hulbert, N. J.

  Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Hunter, T.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

  Bull, B. B.

  Errington, E.

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Erskine-Hill, A. C.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Burghley, Lord

  Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Keeling, E. H.

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Butcher, H. W.

  Everard, W. L.

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Fleming, E. L.

  Kimball, L.

  Cary, R. A.

  Foot, D. M.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Gazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Furness, S. N.

  Latham, Sir P.

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Channon, H.

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Christie, J. A.

  Gledhill, G.

  Lewis, O.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Gluckstein, L. H.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Little, Sir E. Graham-

  Clarry, Sir Reginald

  Cower, Sir R. V.

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Clydesdale, Marquess of

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Granville, E. L.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Lyons, A. M.

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

  Gridley, Sir A.B.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Storey, S.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  McKie, J. H.

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Magnay, T.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Maitland, A.

  Raynor, Major R. H.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Makine, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Remer, J. R.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Markham, S. F.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Marsden, Commander A.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Touche, G. C.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

  Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Wakefield, W. W.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Rowlands, G.

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

  Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

  Wallace, Capt.Rt. Hon. Euan

  Moreing, A. C.

  Russell, Sir Alexander Ward,

  Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Morgan, R. H.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Salt, E. W.

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Wayland, Sir W. A

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Sandys, E. D.

  Wells, S. R.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

  White, H. Graham

  Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

  Savery, Sir Servington

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Scott, Lord William

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Selley, H. R.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Owen, Major G.

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel G.

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Patrick, C. M.

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

  Peat, C. U.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Petherick, M.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Wragg, H.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

  Pilkington, R.

  Somervell. Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Captain Waterhouse and Mr. Grimston.

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Spens, W. P.

  Radford, E. A.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  NOES.

  Barr, J.

  McGovern, J.

  Stephen, C.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Messer, F.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Silverman, S. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Mr. Maxton and Mr. Buchanan.

  AIR ESTIMATES, 1937.
  Question put,
  "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Air Estimates."
  The House divided: Ayes, 327; Noes, 7.

  Division No. 318.]

  AYES.

  [10.58 p.m.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

  Beit, Sir A. L.

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

  Bennett, Sir E. N.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Cary, R. A.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

  Boulton, W. W.

  Channon, H.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T.

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Apsley, Lord

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Christie, J. A.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Bracken, B.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Assheton, R.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

  Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Brass, Sir W.

  Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Clarry, Sir Reginald

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

  Clydesdale, Marquess of

  Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

  Bull, B. B.

  Conant, Captain R. J. E.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Balniel, Lord

  Burghley, Lord

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

  Barrie, Sir C. C.

  Burton, Col. H. W.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Butcher, H. W.

  Cox, H. B. T.

  Beamish Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Craven-Ellis, W.

  Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

  Higgs, W. F.

  Radford, E. A.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Holmes, J. S.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Cross, R. H.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Here-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Rayner, Major R. H.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Davies, C. (Montgomery)

  Hulbert, N. J.

  Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

  De Chair, S. S.

  Hunter, T.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Denville, Alfred

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Dodd, J. S.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Doland, C. F.

  Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Drewe, C.

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Rowlands, G.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

  Duggan, H. J.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Russell, Sir Alexander

  Dunglass, Lord

  Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Kimball, L.

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Salt, E. W.

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Samuel, M. R. A.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Latham, Sir P.

  Sandys, E. D

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

  Elmley, Viscount

  Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Savery, Sir Servington

  Emery, J. F.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Scott, Lord William

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Lewis, O.

  Selley, H. R.

  Entwistle, Sir C. F.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Shakespeare, G. H

  Errington, E.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Erskine-Hill, A. G.

  Little, Sir E. Graham-

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Loftus, P. C.

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Everard, W. L.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Lyons, A. M.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

  Fleming, E.L.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

  Foot, D. M.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Spens, W. P.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  Furness, S. N.

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Storey, S.

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Mckie, J. H.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Gledhill, G.

  Magnay, T.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Gluckstein, L. H.

  Maitland, A.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Markham, S. F.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Granville, E. L.

  Marsden, Commander A.

  Thomas, J. P. L.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Touche, G. C.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

  Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Wakefeild, W. W.

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

  Walker-Smith, Sir J.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Moreing, A. C.

  Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Morgan, R. H.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

  Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Waterhouse Captain C.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Munro, P.

  Wayland, Sir W. A

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Wells, S. R.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

  White, H. Graham

  Hannah, I. C.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Harbord, A.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Harris, Sir P. A.

  Owen, Major G.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

  Harvey, Sir G.

  Patrick, C. M.

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

  Peake, O.

  Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Peat, C. U.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Petherick, M.

  Wragg, H.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Pilkington, R.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Hepworth, J.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

  Power, Sir J. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Major Sir George Davies and

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Captain Dugdale.

  NOES.

  Barr, J.

  Messer, F.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Silverman, S. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  McGhee, H. G.

  Stephen, C.

  Mr. McGovern and Mr. Buchanan.

  Maxton, J.

  Lords Amendments to page 68, line 31, agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS [26TH JULY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, the sum of £410,503,155 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Sir John Simon, and Lieut.-Colonel Colville.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL,
"to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand, nine hundred and thirty-eight, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 213.]

FACTORIES BILL.
Order read for Consideration of Lords Amendments.
11.10 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is in attendance on the King, and it falls. to the Lord Advocate and me to explain the Lords Amendments. They look rather a formidable body of Amendments, but I think that the House will agree that that is inevitable in such an exceptionally large Bill. The majority of the Amendments are purely drafting, but we will give an assurance that whenever there is any substance in any of them we will bring them to the attention of the House.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 2.—(Overcrowding.)
Lords Amendment: In page 3, line 7, leave out from "that" to the end of line 35 and insert:"
3022
"if the chief inspector is satisfied that owing to the special conditions under which the work is carried on in any workroom in which explosive materials are manufactured or handled, the application of the provisions of this subsection to that workroom would be inappropriate or unnecessary, he may by certificate except the workroom from those provisions subject to any conditions specified in the certificate.
"(3) As respects any room used as a workroom at the date of the passing of this Act the last foregoing subsection shall, for the period of five years after that date and, if before the expiration of that period effective and suitable mechanical ventilation has been provided in the room, for a further period of five years, have effect as if for the reference therein to four hundred cubic feet there were substituted a reference to two hundred and fifty cubic feet:
Provided that this Sub-section shall cease to apply to the room—
(a) if the room passes into the occupation of any person other than the person who was the occupier thereof at the passing of this Act, or his successor in the same business; or
(b) if, during the first of the said periods, the inspector for the district requires the provision of effective and suitable mechanical ventilation in the room and default is made in complying with the requirement; or
(c) if, during the second of the said periods or in a case where it has been provided in pursuance of the inspector's requirement during either of those periods, the effective and suitable mechanical ventilation provided in the room ceases to be maintained."
11.12 p.m.
The Lord Advocate (Mr. T. M. Cooper): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The object of this Amendment is to rearrange and re-state the provisions of Sub-sections (2) and (3) of the overcrowding Clause. There is no alteration in substance.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 32, line 11, agreed to.
CLAUSE 34.—(Means of escape in case of fire.)
Lords Amendment: In page 33, line 8, leave out "may" and insert "shall."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
11.16 p.m.
The Lord Advocate: As the Bill was drawn when the district council require that new provisions should be made as regards means of escape from fire it was optional for the council to amend the certificate they had granted or to issue a new certificate. It has been thought desirable that they should be required to amend the certificate or to issue a new certificate and "may" is to be changed to "shall."
Lords Amendment: In page 33, line 31, after "appeal," insert "by way of complaint."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
11.17 p.m.
The Lord Advocate: The object of this Amendment is to make it plain that there may be an appeal on complaint to a court of summary jurisdiction.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 35, line 5, agreed to.
Lords Amendment: In page 35, line 11, at the end, insert:
"Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to any such factory or part thereof if, since the means of escape were provided, any action has been taken of which notice would, if this Section had been in force and a certificate had been granted there under, have been required to be given to the council."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
11.19 p.m.
The Lord Advocate: This proviso occurs in the Clause dealing with the means of escape in case of fire, and in that part of it which relates to the Administrative County of London. Its purpose is to apply within the Administrative County of London Sub-section (5) of the Clause, the purpose of which is shortly this: If any material alteration is made in any premises which requires notice to be given, then any previous notice given to the council shall fall and require to be revised. The effect of the Amendment is to bring the Administrative County of London into line with the rest of the country.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 37, line 9, agreed to.
CLAUSE 41.—(Supply of drinking water.)
Lords Amendment: In page 39, line 7, at the end, insert:
"such approval not to be withheld except on the ground of the unwholesomeness of the water."
Motion made, and. Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
11.20 p.m.
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment deals with a small point concerning the supply of drinking water. It can be obtained either from a public main or another approved source, and the local authority is to be the judge. It is thought that the only proper ground on which a local authority should disapprove the alternative source of supply was that of its unwholesomeness. Certain fears had been expressed that the authority might act from other considerations, for instance that they might take the view that the water ought to be taken from their own supply.
11.21 p.m.
Miss Wilkinson: Might I point out with regard to that that there might be other implications in those words? A water supply might be quite wholesome, yet have a very nasty taste, and the employés might object very strongly to the supply being regarded as adequate drinking water. If this Amendment is agreed to, such employés would have no ground for going to the local authority.
Mr. Lloyd: I think the words "unwholesomeness of the water" make reasonable provision for such cases.
CLAUSE 42.—(Washing facilities.)
Lords Amendment: In page 39, line 20, leave out the Clause, and insert:
NEW CLAUSE A.—(Washing facilities.)
"—(1) There shall be provided and maintained for the use of employed persons adequate and suitable facilities for washing which shall include soap and clean towels or other suitable means of cleaning or drying, and the facilities shall be conveniently accessible and shall be kept in a clean and orderly condition.

3025
(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe, either generally or as respects any class or description of factory or as respects the persons employed in any process, a standard of adequate and suitable washing facilities.
(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide for the exemption of factories from any of the requirements of this section in cases where by reason of the difficulty of obtaining an adequate supply of water, or the fact that accommodation is restricted and adequate and suitable washing facilities are otherwise conveniently available, or such other special circumstances as may be specified in the regulations, the application of the requirement would in his opinion be unreasonable.
(4) This section shall come into operation on the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine:
Provided that, as respects persons employed in any process in which lead, arsenic or any other poisonous substance is used, or any process prescribed by the Secretary of State, being a process liable to cause dermatitis or any other affection of the skin, this section shall come into operation at the commencement of this Act."
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This new Clause is to give effect to the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend upon the Report stage. At that time the provision was that washing facilities should be provided in the case of a number of categories of factories, but the view taken by the House was that the provision should be a general one, laying down that it was necessary to have washing facilities generally, and giving my right hon. Friend power to exempt in certain circumstances. Therefore, the new Clause is framed exactly on the lines that the Home Secretary expressed in the House at the conclusion of that Debate. I do not think it is necessary for me to say any more.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I think I speak on behalf of my hon. Friends when I say that we welcome the proposed new Clause as a great improvement. We are, however, intrigued on the small point raised in the following words:
"There shall be provided and maintained for the use of employed persons adequate and suitable facilities for washing which shall include soap and clean towels or other suitable means of cleaning or drying."
How can a person have suitable washing facilities unless he uses soap and clean towels?
Mr. Lloyd: I think I can satisfy the hon. Gentleman on that point. One of
3026
the modern methods of drying the hands—it is in use in the United States, particularly—employed in some factories is a machine which produces a large volume of quickly moving hot air. That is on the point with regard to towels. With regard to soap, it is a fact that certain types of grease are not amenable to removal by the simple use of soap and water, and they require a soda solution or a detergent solution.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 39, line 34, agreed to.
CLAUSE 43.—(Accommodation for clothing.)
Lords Amendment: In page 39, line 36, leave out Sub-section (2) and insert:
"(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe, either generally or as respects any class or description of factory, a standard of suitable accommodation for such clothing and of arrangements for drying such clothing.
(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide for the exemption of factories from any of the requirements of this section in cases where by reason of such special circumstances as may be specified in the regulalations the application of the requirement would in his opinion be unreasonable."
11.24 p.m.
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment simply brings the exemption with regard to accommodation into line with the exemption with regard to washing facilities. In fact, it rather strengthens the provision by substituting regulations for orders.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 43, line 1, agreed to.
CLAUSE 48.—(Washing facilities and meals in certain dangerous trades.)
Lords Amendment: In page 43, line 13, at the end, insert:
"other than intervals allowed in the course of a spell of continuous employment."
11.26 p.m.
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
It will be remembered that it is necessary under this Clause that the work-people should leave the workplace when lead and arsenic compounds are being

3027
used in manufacturing processes; but under the Clause as it stands it would be necessary that they should go out even during a 10 minutes interval under the rest spell provision. Clearly it would be quite wrong to force people to go out during that 10 minutes, which, in some factories, would be only the time required to get them out and bring them back again, and therefore they would lose the benefit of the rest spell.
CLAUSE 49.—(Protection of eyes in certain processes.)
Lords Amendment: In page 43, line 36, after "shall," insert:
"in accordance with any directions given by the regulations."
11.27 p.m.
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Broad) raised the point, when we were discussing a new Clause on Report, that screens should be allowed to be prescribed by the Home Secretary, as well as goggles, for protecting the eyes. We found on examination that we had not actual power to prescribe screens, and we are taking it by means of this Amendment.
Subsequent Lords Amendments, to page 46, line 25, agreed to.
CLAUSE 53.—(Underground rooms.)
Lords Amendment: In page 46, line 36, leave out "one month," and insert "twenty-one days."
11.28 p.m.
The Lord Advocate: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The purpose of this Amendment is to make the time limit for taking appeals the same under the provisions of the Clause relating to underground rooms as it is in certain other Clauses of the Bill. Some criticism was made on this point during the previous stages of the Bill.
Subsequent Lords Amendments, to page 46, line 39, agreed to.
Lords Amendment: In page 46, line 40, at the end, insert: "in the case of a room in actual use."
11.29 p.m.
The Lord Advocate: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The provisions of the Bill as drafted allow an underground room to be in continual use notwithstanding the fact that an appeal has been taken to determine whether it should be used. It has been thought desirable that that privilege should be confined to the case where the underground room is actually in use when the appeal is taken, and should not be extended to cover the case where an underground room has not been in use but is proposed to be brought into use. In such a case it is thought appropriate that the occupier of the underground room should not bring it into use until after the appeal has been heard and he has been found entitled to do so. We are, therefore, strengthening the Bill in that respect.
CLAUSE 54.—(Basement bakehouses.)
Lords Amendment: In page 47, line 38, leave out "until their next examination of the bakehouse" and insert:
"so long as the bakehouse may otherwise lawfully be used, but without prejudice to the power of the council to revoke the certificate as the result of a subsequent examination under this subsection."
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This is a drafting Amendment.
11.32 p.m.
Mr. Banfield: I expected that the Under-Secretary might have offered some explanation of this Amendment. The effect is to weaken considerably the provisions affecting underground bakehouses. Ever since 1901 they have been included in the Factory Acts. Provision was made in that year and it was expected that they would be done away with. The Government have not done that but they originally made provision for periodical inspection. Now the Lords come along with an Amendment that does away with that examination. I am

3029
very disappointed about this. It seems a terrible thing to me that in another 40 years, on the next Factories Bill, someone will get up and refer to what the late Mr. Banfield said about it in 1937. The case put up in the Commons was very strong and I think the general opinion was that these places should be done away with, but they gave way in a great measure to the Under-Secretary and his right hon. Friend. Many of these places are approaching 100 years old, and the older they become the greater the need of inspection. As they begin to crumble and decay their state will become even worse. I trust the House will not agree to the Amendment unless we get some satisfactory explanation.
11.34 p.m.
The Lord Advocate: I am glad to be able to assure the hon. Member that his apprehensions are quite groundless. If the purpose of the Amendment had been to weaken the Bill my hon. Friend would not have described it as drafting. The Clause provided that in certain circumstances the Council may give notice in writing and a certificate may be granted for an undergound bakehouse to continue to operate until the next examination. The whole point is that the Council could not reach a decision as to what the future of the bakehouse was to be until some time after the next examination, and thereafter come to a decision to issue a new certificate or resolve to amend the existing certificate. So it is absolutely, in the first place, to meet that technical point that the variation of the language is proposed in this manner. There is the further point, which the hon. Member will appreciate, that, apart altogether from any question of the character of the premises, it might cease to be lawful to use the bakehouse purely for the purpose during the period between one examination and another if the bakehouse had ceased to be used at all for the period of twelve months. So by this Amendment which was proposed in another place that risk of a loophole is also met. I can give the hon. Member the most complete assurance that, so far from weakening the Clause, the effect of the Amendment is to strengthen it.
Mr. Banfield: Will not the effect of the Amendment be to do away with the periodical examination?
The Lord Advocate: No, Sir, the periodical examination will continue
3030
under the Clause as it came from this House.
Subsequent Lords Amendment to page 61, line 15, agreed to.
CLAUSE 71.—(Reduction of weekly hours of work of young persons under sixteen.)
Lords Amendment: In page 61, line 25, leave out from "regulations" to the end of line 33, and insert:
"make such modifications of this Part of this Act, and make such provision as to the period of employment of such young persons and the intervals allowed to them for meals and rest, as appear or appears to him to be necessary or expedient for regulating the arrangement of the hours to be worked by such young persons."
11.39 p.m.
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This may be said to be a substantial drafting Amendment. The House may remember that it was thought desirable to give the Home Secretary power to make sure that employers, in ging the extra reduction of hours to any persons under 16, should not do it in such a way as really to render nugatory the extra reduction, as, for example, giving a very long interval at lunch time, or in any other undesirable manner. We made an alteration on Report, but we are making this further alteration to make sure that the Home Secretary has the power.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 66, line 10, agreed to.
CLAUSE 75.—(Restriction of employment inside and outside factory on same day.)
Lords Amendment: In page 66, line 15, at the end, insert:
"Provided that a woman or young person who has attained the age of sixteen may be so employed in a shop outside the period of employment, but any such employment shall be treated for the purposes of this Part of this Act (including the provisions relating to overtime employment) as employment in the factory."
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This is a provision to deal with one of the problems which arise in an estab-

3031
lishment which is partly a shop and partly a factory. It is provided in the Bill that a young person or a woman shall not, except during the period of employment, be employed outside the factory, for instance, in the shop, on any day during which such person is employed in the factory. It is now thought wise that it should be definitely laid down that overtime may be worked by these people in the shop as well as in the factory provided that the total amount of the employment in the shop and factory is rigidly regulated.
CLAUSE 83.—(Exception as to hour of commencement of period of employment.)
Lords Amendment: In page 70, line 42, at the end, insert:
NEW CLAUSE B.—(Exception as to hour at which period of employment of young persons under 16 ends.)
"The period of employment for young persons who have not attained the age of sixteen may end at an hour later than six o'clock in the evening but not later than seven o'clock in the evening in any factory where—
(a) the total hours worked by those young persons do not exceed forty-four in any week;
(b) those young persons are, on at least one weekday in addition to Saturday, not employed after the interval for the midday meal, or are, on at least one weekday, not employed before that interval; and
(c) and such other conditions as may be prescribed by regulations of the Secretary of State are complied with."
11.42 p.m.
Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The House will remember that on the Report stage the Home Secretary moved a provision to make it compulsory that the employment of young persons under 16 should end at 6 p.m., because we thought that would meet the general wish of the House. But we were approached by persons interested in education who took the view that a rigid provision of that kind would make it less easy for employers to give the reduction to 44 hours by means of an extra half-holiday rather than by curtailing the evening
3032
hours. They took the view, particularly in the case of employers who were giving time off for young persons for day-time classes, that where their work would have normally ended at 6.30, it would make it very hard on the employer who gave the half-holiday to prevent him from keeping the young person after 6.30. We thought it would be in the interests of the young persons themselves that whereas the general hour should be 6 o'clock, there should be opportunities, under certain safeguards, to extend the hour to 7 o'clock.
11.44 p.m.
Mr. Rhys Davies: We are very unhappy about this Amendment. The Under-Secretary said that persons interested in education had been to the Home Office. I should like to know the type of person and in what type of education they were interested. If the Association of Local Education Authorities had approached the Home Office and asked for this alteration we could have understood it, but the Under-Secretary did not say that. We object to this extension of one hour to 7 o'clock, and it seems to us a very strange proceeding. It is like a tram driver who gets eight hours work in four spells. We do not like the idea of spells of employment for young persons up to 7 o'clock in the evening. I do not think the other House should tamper with tile decision of the House of Commons on this point, and I strongly object to the Under-Secretary using the other House for the purpose of proposing this new Clause. Unless we get a better explanation we shall have to divide against this Amendment.
11.46 p.m.
Mr. Silverman: There is another aspect of this matter which should not be overlooked. We can quite understand that it may be in the interests of young persons to do this; that in a desire to allow them to work a five-day week arid have a complete week-end leave for their own leisure we will even permit the hours of employment to be extended to 7 o'clock in the evening. Even then it should be done only if the victims of the employment themselves consented. I should like to have seen a provision to ascertain the desires of the young persons themselves, whether they would prefer to work on until 6 o'clock always, or whether they would prefer to have the hours extended

3033
to 7 o'clock on some days in order to give them a longer period of leisure at the week-end. But I view with considerable apprehension the suggestion that they are to be kept at work as late as 7 o'clock in order that some educational authority may add to their education. If the House had accepted the view that factories ought to be closed to children up to the age of 15 they would be attending schools, their education would be looked after, and their working day would have ended at a reasonable time. Their evenings would have been their own for recreation and amusement, as they should be. It is a dreadful thing to say that the hours of labour for large numbers of young people under the age of 16 shall extend to 7 o'clock in order that some part of their leisure shall be used for the purposes of education. They should never be taken away from education at that age. This is not an improvement of the Bill, and I am a little surprised that the Under-Secretary should have accepted it so calmly as if it were an effort to improve the handiwork of this House. It is not an improvement. It limits still further the little good which this House was able to achieve.
11.50 p.m.
Viscountess Astor: I am a little disappointed in the Government for having accepted this Amendment. If young people are going to be let off for two hours in the day, that is really not practical. Many of them live too far away to be able to join in any sports. We have not had a reasonable explanation of why we should give way to the Lords in this matter. I was hoping that they would see light, as they have done before, and that they would say to the Commons that no young person under 15 should be allowed in a factory. Every now and then the other House sees, not red, but light, and this action of theirs is most disappointing. If children get a certain time off in the middle of the day, what can they do? The most they can do is to go to a movie. As far as education is concerned, this Clause will do no good. When a child is kept in a factory till 7 o'clock, it means very often that he cannot get home till 8, and that does away with all that the House wants, sport, keeping fit and all those things which are talked about in the House. It is going to do away with any further education, and, apart from education, it is going to
3034
do away with the club life which we are trying to build up and which is so vital.
Mr. J. J. Davidson: Do not forget to vote now.
11.52 p.m.
Mr. Mander: I do not feel that we have had sufficient justification for making the change. The Under-Secretary used rather mysterious words about certain persons interested in education. Why not tell us exactly who they are? Is it the Board of Education? Is it the archbishops and bishops? We are entitled to know who they are. The real difficulty in which we find ourselves is owing to the fact that the Government have not reduced the hours of work of these young workers. If the hours had been fixed at 40, as most Members of the Committee desired, you would not have had this difficulty. If a much better justification for the change is not produced we ought to retain the provision in the Bill.
11.53 p.m.
Mr. Lloyd: It might be desirable if I gave a further explanation. The House will remember that we are governed by the fact that the maximum permissive hours are 44—not 40. We cannot discuss the question of 44 or 40 hours now. In the earlier discussions on the Bill, the House may remember, we all took a great interest in the way in which this extra reduction was to take place. Was it to be by a shortening of the hours or by cutting out the whole of a morning's or afternoon's work on particular days? A great many of us—perhaps the majority—thought that in many cases the preferable method would be to give a whole free half-holiday on a particular day rather than cut a little off the hours on each of the days, and this new Clause deals solely with that point. I would remind the House that the record of the Home Office in this matter is blameless. We did not accept this provision of 6 p.m. as the limit when it was proposed by somebody else. We considered this problem from the point of view of the young persons and came forward ourselves without pressure to make 6 p.m. the limit. [HON. MEMBERS: Why give it up?] The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that our motives are exactly the same as those which he and other hon. Members have. Perhaps I ought to clear up this mystery, and say that the Board of Education have communicated with

3035
us and entirely agree with us, in the interests of the spread of day-time classes—
Miss Wilkinson: The hon. Gentleman is speaking of technical education, but this is completely wiping out the possibility of these children making a greater attendance at night classes. For most of the children, except those who have special facilities in London and other large towns, night classes are the only possibility they have of getting this education.
Mr. Lloyd: The point we are considering is simply whether or not it is desirable to make it easier in certain circumstances for the children to have a half-holiday rather than a small reduction of hours each day. I assure the House that that is our motive. We realised that the effect of the 6 p.m. provision would really be to throw the method of reduction of hours on to a reduction of the hours each day rather than on to a half-holiday. We thought a reasonable amount of elasticity should be allowed. It was for that reason alone that this Amendment was introduced. That is our only motive.
11.58 p.m.
Mr. Broad: After listening to the explanation of the hon. Gentleman, I am afraid that this provision is very badly drafted. As I read it, any young person under 16, although supposed to be working 44 hours a week, could be kept on until 7 p.m. every day in the week, and at some convenient time, one individual would be given a half-holiday, and at some other time, another individual would be given one, and so on. How would it be possible to check such a factory? If all the young people had a half-holiday on the same day of the week, it would be possible to have some check over the factory, but in this case there could be no check. It would be of no use to the children, because they would not be able to make arrangements beforehand or to attend any regular classes. The whole provision is badly drafted, and I
think there ought to have been some consultation with hon. Members on this side before it was put down.
12.0 m.
Mr. Herbert Morrison: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
The Under-Secretary has indicated that this new Clause has been proposed on the representation of the Board of Education. It seems curious that he should first say that it was on the representation of certain persons interested in education. They turned out to be no less than the State Department concerned with education. I suppose that in future we must refer to the President of the Board of Education as "certain persons interested in education." This new Clause has, therefore, been inserted on educational grounds, and we are not satisfied that those grounds are sound or adequate. If it has been inserted on educational grounds the representative of the State Department concerned with education ought to be here to give us the grounds on which these representations were made to the Home Office. think that the House generally is surprised that, as this is claimed to be an educational point, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education is not here. I suggest that the Chief Whip might be better occupied in seeing that the Parliamentary Secretary is in his place than bringing imprecations down on his colleagues and on us. I move the adjournment of the Debate in order that the Chief Whip may do the job for which he is paid and send for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education so that we may have an authoritative view—as far as that is practicable from this Government—on the educational aspects of this question instead of listening to the Under-Secretary for the Home Office, who is not qualified or authorised to speak on the educational policy of His Majesty's Government.
Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
The House divided: Ayes, 99; Noes, 194.

Division No. 319.]

AYES.

[12.2 a.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Burke, W. A.

Dobbie, W.

Ammon, C. G.

Cape, T.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Chater, D.

Ede, J. C.

Banfield, J. W.

Cocks, F. S.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Barr, J.

Daggar, G.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Bellenger, F. J.

Dalton, H.

Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Broad, F. A.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Foot, D. M.

Buchanan, G.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Gallacher, W.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Kirkwood, D.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Gibson, R. (Greenock)

Lawson, J. J.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

Leonard, W.

Sexton, T. M.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Silverman, S. S.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

McEntee, V. La T.

Simpson, F. B.

Griffiths, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

MacLaren, A.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Mander, G. le M.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Marshall, F.

Sorensen, R. W.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Maxton, J.

Stephen, C.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Messer, F.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Milner, Major J.

Tinker, J. J.

Hayday, A.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

Walker, J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Watson, W. McL.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

White, H. Graham

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Paling, W.

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

Holdsworth, H.

Parkinson, J. A.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Hollins, A.

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Hopkin, D.

Price, M. P.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Jagger, J.

Pritt, D. N.

Windsor, W. (Hull, )

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Ridley, G.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Riley, B.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Ritson, J.

Kelly, W. T.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Kirby, B. V.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Mr. John and Mr. Mathers.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Eastwood, J. F.

Lloyd, G. W.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Eckersley, P. T.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Loftus, P. C.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Emery, J. F

Lyons, A. M.

Apsley, Lord

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Asks, Sir R. W.

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Errington, E.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Balniel, Lord

Everard, W. L.

McKie, J. H.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Findlay, Sir E.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Barrie, Sir C. C.

Fleming, E. L.

Magnay, T.

Baxter, A. Beverley

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M

Beit, Sir A. L.

Furness, S. N.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Bernays, R. H.

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Markham, S. F.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

Blair, Sir R.

Gluckstein, L. H.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Bossom, A. C.

Gower, Sir R. V.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Boulton, W. W.

Grant-Ferris, R.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

Boyce, H. Leslie

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Moreing, A. C.

Bracken, B.

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

Brass, Sir W.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake)

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Munro, P.

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Nall, Sir J.

Bull, B. B.

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

Butcher, H. W.

Guy, J. C. M.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Hannah, I. C.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Carver, Major W. H.

Harbord, A.

Petherick, M.

Cary, R. A.

Harlington, Marquess of

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

Procter, Major H. A.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Radford, E. A.

Channon, H.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Christie, J. A.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Hepworth, J.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Higgs, W. F.

Rankin, Sir R.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Rathbone, J. R.(Bodmin)

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

Holmes, J. S.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Cox, H. B. T.

Hunter, T.

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Craven-Ellis, W.

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Ron Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Crooks, J. S.

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Rowlands, G.

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Keeling, E. H.

Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

Cross, R. H.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Salmon, Sir I.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Salt, E. W.

Cruddas, Col. B.

Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

Samuel, M. R. A.

Culverwell, C. T.

Kimball, L.

Sandys, E. D.

Davidson, Viscountess

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Savery, Sir Servington

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Latham, Sir P.

Scott, Lord William

Denville, Alfred

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Dodd, J. S.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Liddall, W. S.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Spens, W. P.

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wakefield, W. W.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Wragg, H.

Sutcliffe, H.

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

Tate, Mavis C.

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Wayland, Sir W. A

Thomas, J. P. L.

Wells, S. R.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Mr. Grimston and Captain

Touche, G. C.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Waterhouse.

Question put, and agreed to.

Question again proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
12.6 a.m.
Miss Wilkinson: I feel that the House has been somewhat discourteously treated either by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, or by the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, in the fact that no attempt has been made to explain why the representative of the Board of Education is not present. This is no mere trivial matter; it is a very serious matter and the point about which we are concerned is this. There are only certain large towns where it would be possible to make use of this extra afternoon off for purposes of technical education. Over a large part of the country this type of extension education is largely given at night classes and if these girls and boys are at work until seven o'clock in the evening they cannot take advantage of the very extensive and well-organised system of night classes which exists in this country. When they get home from work and have a meal and a wash and it is eight or nine o'clock, and it is utterly impossible for them to attend classes. I cannot understand the casual remark of the Under-Secretary that the Board of Education is responsible for this suggestion. It seems to me that they of all people should desire young people to have these educational advantages but this proposal simply means that large numbers of boys and girls will be prevented from availing themselves of the facilities provided for them under the Board's own system. This is a subject on which the Board ought to speak for itself.
I feel too that we ought to have the support of the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) not only in Debate in the House but also in the Division Lobby, on this great issue. She has done a great deal to foster club life among boys and girls and obviously if these children—and they are only children—are to have this extra work on two nights a
3040
week, it will be very difficult for them to keep up that club life. Furthermore there is nothing in this proposal to say that the nights on which the work is to be done may not be altered and altered unreasonably. I see the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, like a shy shade, just slipping in from behind Mr. Speaker's Chair. But he cannot be allowed merely to appear here shyly, just to give an air to the Debate. Here is a Parliamentary Secretary who very largely owes his position as a Parliamentary Secretary to the work he has done for the education of adolescents, at Toynbee Hall and in connection with clubs. We want him to come along now and tell us why his Board of Education has done this astonishing thing. Why have they agreed to this extra hour of employment for young people which will vitiate so much of their work? There is no need for me to say anything more. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am so glad to have with me the unanimous opinion of the House, and I hope that I shall have their unanimous assistance in pressing the shy Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education to come forward and enlighten us as to what the Board of Education have been up to.
12.16 a.m.
Mr. Gallacher: As one who has worked in a factory I think nothing worse could be contemplated than this Clause. I cannot understand how anyone who has given any consideration to the life of young workers could propose such a Clause. When I was 14 or 15 I did not mind very much an early start in the morning—and I started at six, and had to be up at five—but the one thing I desired was to get away as early as I could in the afternoon or evening. Recently there was a strike of apprentices on the Clyde, an instructive and important feature in the development of the young workers, and I tell the Home Office and the Government that if they try to operate a Clause keeping the young workers at work till seven in the evening they are going to get such strikes. I will do all

3041
in my power to get the young workers to strike against such a criminal act. Working till seven means that the whole of the night is wasted, that every night in the week is wasted. The Home Office expert said they were in a difficulty, that they could cut down the hours by so much a day, or cut off the afternoon or morning. Therefore they would give the impression that they are acting out of pure kind heartedness, that instead of reducing the hours per day they reduce the morning part. But that is not the point. They are proposing to take the four hours off in the morning or in the afternoon and to put on an hour each evening. That is not making any reduction so far as the afternoon or evening is concerned. It is simply a trick whereby employers can employ the young workers every night in the week and play about with the relief either in the forenoon or the afternoon. I am prepared to say that in no factory anywhere will it be possible to carry out this Clause, or to carry it out in such a way as to get the results that arc desired, because not only will the young workers be against it but there is not a tradesman or an unskilled worker who will not be ready to support them in any steps they may take to put an end to the attempt to operate the Clause. I ask the Government to consider seriously where they are going. The Clause can never be operated, either for an educational purpose or the purpose for which it was intended, and that is to suit the interests of the employers, and so I suggest that it should be withdrawn right away.
12.20 a.m.
Mr. Jagger: I would reinforce the appeal that has been made to the representative of the Board of Education. I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that he had had representations from persons interested in education, and when challenged he said that the Board of Education had raised no objection. I am afraid that the Board of Education are being done a great injustice, and their representative should get up and defend himself. The House has been allowed to believe that the Board approve of this method; if so, they have fallen much further from grace than my association with them has led me to expect. I do not think anybody can exaggerate the importance of resisting and defeating the proposed new Clause from the other place,
3042
because it is bad in conception and is one way of getting back to that 48 hours from which the Government were forced to run away and substitute 44. It means they want to make it possible for employers to work young people for 44 hours and to get in four hours of technical education. If children from 14 to 16 years of age are to be in the factories from 1937 onwards, and are to have technical education, let them have it inside the 44 hours provided in the Measure. That education is to make them more efficient wage-slaves; let them be made so inside the working hours. I cannot conceive of there being any desire to give these children cultural education; the opportunity for that occurs much more in the evening than in any odd morning or afternoon on which an employer may care to let them off work. Technical education they can get in the morning; I strongly object to their having it on top of their 44-hour week.
12.23 a.m.
Sir P. Harris: I understand that the case put forward by the Under-Secretary was on educational grounds. It is to encourage education, and is not to raise the number of hours, but to rearrange them in return for an extra hour or half hour for education. What guarantee is there that local authorities will make provision for education for young persons, or that the children will attend educational classes? There is no reference to education in the Clause. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education is here now, no doubt at some inconvenience to himself; if he could give us an assurance that both the Board of Education and the local authorities are to make proper provision for education of young persons under this Clause it might alter our attitude.
12.25 a.m.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I am very pleased that the Board of Education are at long last represented here. I am going to make a strong appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what the Board actually think about the proposal which the hon. Gentleman has put before us. As the hon. Gentleman was late in coming in, perhaps I had better tell him what has happened. It may interest and enlighten him.
Mr. Speaker: I must point out that the hon. Member cannot speak again on this Clause except with the leave of the House. Has the hon. Member leave?
Hon. Members: No.
12.26 a.m.
Mr. Marshall: If the Board of Education have agreed to this Clause, they are wrong, and they know they are wrong, for a more reactionary opinion I have never heard. I have seen young persons working in factories till seven o'clock, and I will try to describe what happens. A young person, at five o'clock, which is the ordinary knocking-off time for young persons, begins to feel that he wants to get home, and no power on earth can make him enjoy or take an interest in the work of the factory after that hour. If the Board of Education do not know that, they have learned nothing in all their years of experience. A provision that young persons are to work till seven when they know that all the active life of the town begins at about that time is one of the most reactionary provisions ever introduced in a Factory Bill or any other Bill, and I would ask the Board of Education to explain it. At five o'clock a lad is physically tired and wants to get home, and his employers themselves can get no value out of his work after that hour. Why is it sought to impose this reactionary Clause in a Factory Act? I sincerely hope that the House will divide against the Clause and defeat it. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he can give us any reasonable and rational explanation why the Board have allowed the Clause to be presented to the House for approval.
12.29 a.m.
Mr. Ede: While the Parliamentary Secretary is finding out what was said before he came in, perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate the Patronage Secretary on having communicated with the hon. Gentleman and suggested to him that it is in accordance with the traditions of the House that he should respond to the appeal which has been made to him. The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department has not attempted to answer the speech of the Noble Lady the Member for Sutton (Viscountess Astor), who stated clearly and emphatically the educational objections to the Clause in its present form, arid I think the Under-Secretary was very lucky to be able to suggest to the House that after all it was not for him to defend the Clause, because the Board of Education had expressed no objection to it. It
3044
convinces me that the Board of Education have even less to do with education than I ever feared they had. There can be no educational justification for such a Clause as this. Has the Association of Education Committees asked for it? Has the Education Committee of the County Councils Association asked for it? Did the Association of Municipal Corporations ask for it? Who were the persons interested in education who took the initiative which led the Home Department to seek the opinion of the Board of Education and learn from them that they had no objection to the Clause? Is there any recognised body of educational opinion in the country which could have asked the Home Office to amend the Clause by adding this proviso to it? I do not know how the Home Office expect their inspectors to be able to keep a check on the factories once this Clause is passed. I see the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education has now received the necessary inspiration and I will not stand between him and the House for a single moment.
12.31 a.m.
Mr. Magnay: Before I reply to the invitation of hon. Members on the other side of the House, who are experts in abstaining from voting when it suits them, may I ask the Under-Secretary for the Home Department to put the House in possession of the facts with regard to how many factories and what percentage of factories would have to work until seven o'clock at night? In my experience in the North I cannot recall any. Perhaps I may have the attention of the deputy for the Leader of the Opposition who is getting £2,000 a year for opposing the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheap!"] I could ask, where is the Leader of the Opposition, but I will forego that obvious retort. I do suggest that the proportion of factories that work until seven o'clock in the evening is extremely small and there is a safeguard in this particular Sub-section giving the Home Office extraordinary powers to see that the children are properly safeguarded. At the same time I do wish this Amendment had been put before the Committee that considered this Bill in the proper place upstairs. We had the best Committee in my experience and our purpose was to bring forward the best Bill possible for the consideration of this

3045
House. As one of the Committee which sat for 19 days and gave full consideration to the Bill, and the most favourable consideration, I regret that such an important Amendment as this was not thought of before the Bill came before this House or went to the other place.
I dislike very much, as a Member of this House, taking any instructions at all as to the social conditions of our people, from another place, where they cannot know, as we know, what are the conditions appertaining to industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] If hon. Members do not know, they are too old for me to teach them, and it is time they wakened up. There could have been no Committee more competent to deal with this Bill than the Committee we had upstairs, and I do wish this Amendment had been put forward. I do ask the Under-Secretary to give the House the benefit of his advice as to what percentage—it is a very small one, I am sure—of the factories would be affected by this provision, and, in view of the third proviso in the Amendment, giving the Home Office extraordinary powers to see that this is not exploited, what the effect of the Amendment will be?
12.35 a.m.
Mr. Davidson: I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education to reply to the points which have been put, and I will immediately resume my seat if he desires to reply to the criticisms that have been made. The previous speaker, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Magnay), having made his position perfectly clear by both supporting and opposing the Amendment, probably believing that there may be an early reshuffle in the Government, I would like to bring one or two points to the Parliamentary Secretary's attention that may, perhaps, so far have escaped his notice. I happened early in my life to be apprenticed to an industry that did work that had to be rushed on certain particular days. The chief evil of this Amendment is that this will be completely uncontrolled. There is no specific mention as to how the employers can be controlled with regard to the operation of this extra hour. You are giving employers of labour the opportunity of going to young apprentices between the ages of 14 and 16 and of saying to them, "We have a rush of work to-night and
3046
to-morrow night and you must stay on until seven o'clock," and then they can tell those apprentices that they can take half a day whenever it suits their purpose.
This is an evil against which the trade union movement has tried very definitely to set its face. Among trade union organisations we have definite rules forbidding the employment of juveniles unless employed with a proper number of journeymen, but here, by this loosely drafted Amendment, you are giving employers of labour an opportunity of employing boy labour until seven o'clock at night in contradiction of the expressions of opinion we have received from the Front Bench during the Debate on this Bill. I ask both the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education and the Under-Secretary for the Home Department to recognise this evil. If employers are to be allowed to do this free from any control as to how they operate this extra hour, it means condemning many boys in industry to be merely tools in the hands of their employers.
12.39 a.m.
Mr. Burke: I hope the Under-Secretary will be able to do something to prevent the insertion of this Amendment. As one of those who were on the Committee which dealt with this Bill, he will remember that we had a very considerable struggle to induce the Government to agree to reduce the hours for young persons under 16 to 44 hours, and now we are told the most amazing thing—that these hours are going to be extended until 7 o'clock in the evening on representations from some persons interested in education. I put it to the House quite candidly that there can be no educational ground at all for keeping young persons in factories until 7 o'clock at night. As a matter of fact, from the educational, physical and social point of view of the communities affected, it is a thoroughly bad thing that this insertion is proposed.
The hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Magnay) has said that there are not many factories that will be concerned in this question. I think that is perfectly true, and because there are so few factories, so far as the north is concerned, it is one good reason why this thing should not be inserted. In the north it has become the usual thing for factories to finish at 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening. There will be

3047
very few factories that want to keep their adults there until 7 o'clock. This has not been inserted on any educational grounds, but rather to please those particular factories that do work very late, abnormally late, so that they can have the young persons working alongside the adults. Because the young persons' hours are shorter, the device has been arranged to allow some of them off on Monday mornings, another lot off on Tuesday mornings, breaking up the whole of their time so that a certain number of young persons may be in the factories all the while the adults are working there. Think of the effect of that from the point of view of education.
There are not very many authorities that do have day training schools, but there are far more who have technical schools at night and who want the young persons to come to them. There are also all the social activities of the town that are to be interfered with, and there is the physical side of the thing. The Government have just told the country that they are very much interested in the physical training and welfare of the people. How are you going to organise physical training schools for people who have just left school, and are used to being in school only until 4 or 4.30 o'clock and then have to jump to another 2½ hours stretch in a factory, and after that are expected to do either physical or technical education? I say that there are no grounds, either physical, educational or social for doing this, and most particularly not educational. The reason for it is to meet the wishes of the employers whom we got down in the Committee, and now the good work of the Committee is being destroyed by legislation from another place.
12.43 a.m.
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I rise to make an appeal to the Government in this matter. I cannot help thinking that they have not until now fully considered the implications of this question. Anyone who has employed children from 14 to 16 realises that it is not fair to work a child 44 hours and expect the child on the top of that to put in several hours at some educational institution. That is apparently what is intended in this Clause. I quite appreciate that the Government are in a considerable difficulty
3048
because this is the last time, in the ordinary way, that this will be considered, but I do venture to suggest to the Government that if they would allow this new Clause to be negatived, some further consideration could be given to the matter in conjunction with another place and some compromise might be arrived at. I do suggest that the new Clause in its present form is one which the House, quite apart from party, would be very unwise to carry through, and I am quite sure that the Government, if they think about it carefully and see the full implications, will be of the same opinion. I hope that the Government will see their way in allow this Clause to be negatived on this occasion.
12.46 a.m.
Mr. Messer: I just want to deal with a point raised by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Magnay) because from what he said it would appear that he has not a very wide experience of factory life in the south of England. The evil that will be done in this sense will be particularly in seasonal industries. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education was connected with an educational institution right in the centre of the East End of London surrounded by factories which work seasonal work. It will be found that during the rush hours the men are working overtime. The normal leaving-off time will be six o'clock in the evening, but the boys who work in these factories are of very much greater value when they are working in conjunction with one of the craftsmen. The result will be that during those periods of overtime when the trades are busy men will be starting their overtime and it will be in the interests of the employers to keep the boys on as long as possible in the evening to help the men who are going on through the additional hours. The mornings will not be so important to the employer, and as a consequence of the adjustment that has been made the boys will be working during the whole of that busy period until seven o'clock at night. People in some quarters think that "may" means "shall," although the Clause does not say it, and that "may" will be interpreted in such a way that it will in reality do a great injury to those boys who will be working when they ought to be using their time to better purposes.
12.48 a.m.
Mr. Morgan: I rise to point out that there are some people on this side of the House who have just as much interest in young people as persons on the other side of the House. May I say that I profoundly disagree with one or two speakers on the other side who think that this is a matter for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education to decide? In my opinion the question before the House is whether young people should be allowed to continue to work until 7 o'clock at night, and as one who has a very great deal of experience, both practically and in administration, I am bound to say emphatically that those who are under 16 should not be allowed to go on working until 7 o'clock at night. It is impossible for those who are going to a systematic course of instruction at evening classes to do so when they do not leave the factories until 7 o'clock.
I have had some experience of night work, and I know what I am talking about. One of the greatest difficulties we have had in making successful continuation classes is this "stop and go" sort of attendance at these classes. I really do regret that this Amendment from another place has come to this House. If we could find some way out, as was suggested by a right hon. Member on the Front Bench opposite, I would be very pleased indeed, but I am bound to say, as one who is intensely interested in the welfare of young people and connected with education all my life, that I do very much regret that this Amendment should have come to us. I do not think we ought to throw the whole onus for this on to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education. It is for us to decide, especially those who have been members of the Standing Committee, and I welcome the opportunity to register my protest against this Amendment.
12.49 a.m.
Mr. Holdsworth: I should like to make an appeal to the Under-Secretary to take back this particular Amendment. I want to back up the point of view expressed by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Magnay). I know something about the textile industry, and I cannot imagine anybody who is in the textile trade or anyone who represents a textile constituency disagreeing with me if I say that they are not going to keep a factory
3050
going, burning extra light, etc., and at the same time guarantee the child a 44-hour week. If it was overtime that would be a different question. Certainly the demand does not come from the north of England.
I would like to ask a particular question in regard to something we have been told about this matter. Can he say what trade or trades have made a demand for this? That is the question I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education. The House of Commons has a right to know what preparations have been made for these children to have the facilities for education which we are told they were going to receive. I should also like to know who asked that children between 14 and 16 should work up to seven o'clock. I think it ought to be said in fairness to employers of labour. I know that even from the economic point of view it is not worth while working 44 hours a week to keep the factory open up to seven o'clock. I think the House is entitled to some further explanation and that the Government should either withdraw the clause or bring in some Amendment to it instead of bringing this forward at the last moment.
12.52 a.m.
Mr. Banfield: The House is aware that this Bill not only concerns large businesses which would have no desire to keep their works running until seven o'clock, but that it also concerns thousands of workshops. These places are small and, if I may say so, places where sweating has always gone on, and this provision is opening the door as wide as possible for these people to exploit young people. Under this Clause it may be said that a child working until seven o'clock may be given a half-day. What is going to happen to them if they are given a half-day just when their employers choose? They will be kept at work until seven o'clock at night and in many places there is no provision for technical education during the daytime. Take the children in my constituency. They do not work in Wednesbury, but in Birmingham, which is three-quarters of an hour away by train. If they are going to be kept until seven o'clock in the evening it will take them nearly an hour to get to the railway station at Wednesbury and after that they have to get home. In that case what sort of life do we expect them to lead?

3051
We who served on the Standing Committee gave our best and discussed everything over and over again, and I strongly object to a very important point like this, which was never mentioned by the Under-Secretary of State either on Committee stage or Report stage and which was inserted at the last moment. I think we have a right, as Members of the Standing Committee, to protest because we have had no chance to deal with this matter as we should. This is a matter of the utmost importance to hundreds of thousands of children and it is most important we should examine it. Members on all sides of the House who sat on the Committee wished to do something at any rate for the children and we have been talking in this House about physical training. Therefore it is all the more surprising that this proposal should be put before us at this stage. I hope the appeal made to the Government will get us out of our anxieties on this point.
12.56 a.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Margesson): I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
I rise to address the House as the Under-Secretary for the Home Department (Mr. Lloyd) has already spoken. It seems to me, having listened to the Debate and to the appeals from all quarters of the House, that the best thing we can do this evening is to adjourn the House so that the Government can have an opportunity of examining this point a little more fully and see whether it is possible to make some amendment or some alteration. It is not for me to express any view on the merits of the case, as I have not sat through all the Committee stage. I do not think that a little extra time for further consideration would do any of us any harm, and therefore I suggest that the Debate on these particular Lords Amendments be adjourned.
Mr. Rhys Davies: I respond most emphatically to the appeal made by the right hon. Gentleman. It is the most intelligent speech delivered from the Front Bench for a long time and I support whole-heartedly the Motion.
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPER ANNUATION BILL.
Order read for Consideration of Lords Amendments.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.—[Sir K. Wood.]
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 3.—(Contributory employés.)
Lords Amendment: In page 4, line 14, at the end insert:
"and to the provisions of Part III of this Act relating to officers appointed in a temporary capacity."
12.58 a.m.
The Minister of Health (Sir Kingsley Wood): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
Perhaps I may explain for the benefit of Members that the majority of these Amendments are drafting Amendments. When they are not, I will inform the House, but the right hon. Gentleman opposite is fully aware of them, and, if necessary, I will explain them.
CLAUSE 12.—(Reckoning of contributing and non-contributing service, war service, and service of persons indirectly employed.)
Lords Amendment. In page 16, line 28, leave out from "day" to "any," in line 30.
Mr. Speaker: This Amendment raises a question of Privilege as it may bring in more persons for superannuation allowance.
Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
Although this Amendment raises a question of Privilege it gives effect to the obvious intention of the Measure, namely, that persons whose posts were designated under the Act of 1922 should count service as contributing service under that Act as contributing service for the purposes of the Bill. I think that explains the point.
Question put, and agreed to.—[Special Entry.]
Lords Amendment: In page 17, line 12, leave out from "that" to the end of the Sub-section, and insert:
"no such service after the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty, shall be taken into account."
Mr. Speaker: This Amendment again raises a question of Privilege, as it would allow a longer period to count for superannuation.
Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
Perhaps I might say a few words on this point, which the right hon. Gentleman opposite will remember was raised in the Debate on Third Reading. It was pointed out that certain municipal employés might not have been able to return to their municipal work after serving with the Forces by Armistice Day, the date mentioned in the Clause. I had the opportunity of discussing the matter with right hon. Gentlemen opposite and we have now selected a date, agreed to by the Treasury for Civil Service purposes, which was arrived at after discussion with the Whitley Council at that time, and which will meet the necessities of the case.
Question put, and agreed to.—[Special Entry.]
CLAUSE 22.—(Actuary's certificates and periodical valuation of superannuation fund.)
Lords Amendment: In page 26, line 30, after "shall," insert:
"within three months after receiving the valuation and report."
Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
It is thought desirable to insert a date for the submission of the schemes required to be made under this Sub-section as is done with regard to other schemes to be made under other provisions. The point was raised in the later proceedings on the Bill and this Amendment is intended to meet it.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 43, line 32, agreed to.

SECOND SCHEDULE.
Lords Amendment: In page 47, line 11, leave out from "as" to the end of line 14 and insert:
"is remuneration for duties corresponding to the duties in respect of which he was, immediately before the appointed day, subject to the Act of 1896."
Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment and the consequential Amendments which follow are really drafting Amendments. The intention of the Bill, as drafted, was that a transferred officer formerly superannuable under the Act of 1896 should contribute at the rate specified in this paragraph in respect of the salary he received for his work in the transferred office. This Amendment is to make it clear that on any increase of salary granted to him by reason of increased responsibility of his office or increased volume of work in that office the special rates of contribution applicable to the transferred officer should apply to any such increase of his pensionable remuneration. The Amendment meets the case of that particular officer.
Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 47, line 21, agreed to.
Lords Amendment: In page 51, line 6, after "subsection" insert:
"(3) of section three and subsections (5) and."
Mr. Speaker: This Amendment raises a question of Privilege, because it would restrict the service in calculating superannuation allowance.
Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment is really to clarify the intention of the Bill in regard to its application to justices' clerks and their employés. I think we have already made it clear during the various stages of the Bill that the only justices' clerks and employés of justices' clerks whom the Bill proposes to make superannuable are whole-time justices' clerks and their whole-time employés, and that service a part-time capacity will not be a qualification for pension and not reckonable in assessing it. This Amendment is to make that matter quite clear.
1.6 a.m.
Mr. Ede: Does it mean that the whole-time service of a whole-time clerk, or will it be the whole-time service of a part-time clerk?
Sir K. Wood: It is perfectly clear, so far as the clerks of the justices are concerned, that they must be serving full time. We cannot put on local authorities the responsibility for pensions for part-time people.
Mr. Ede: The right hon. Gentleman has not quite understood my point. A part-time clerk of the justices might have a whole-time clerk in his employment who was entirely engaged on justices' work. It is not an uncommon thing to find that the real clerk of the justices is some quite poorly-paid clerk in the clerk's office. Can that person qualify for a superannuation?
Sir K. Wood: Not if he is in the employ of a part-time justices' clerk himself. We could not impose that on local authorities. Conditions are altering, and generally speaking indirectly employed people are rapidly coming into the employment of the local authorities themselves.
1.8 a.m.
Mr. A. Jenkins: There are instances perfectly well known where a clerk is employed whole-time on justices' work by the justices' clerk who works part-time. Such a person is just as much employed full-time as the clerks employed by the justices themselves. Is it not a great hardship on these clerks that they should not be accepted, while other clerks doing precisely the same work are included in these benefits?
1.9 a.m.
Sir K. Wood: I think there is a great deal to be said as far as these clerks are concerned, but the hon. Member will appreciate that it would be impossible to impose on the local authorities the obligation to pension employés of those who are not employed whole-time. The real way of meeting such cases—and it is gradually happening at the present time—is that justices' clerks should come within whole-time employment.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.—[Special Entry.]
Lords Amendment: In page 54, line 44, at the end, insert:
"4. Where the fund out of which the remuneration of a mental hospital employé was or is paid by the body under which he was or becomes such an employé is not the fund out of which superannuation allowances are paid to such employés, the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Schedule shall have effect subject to such modifications as may he prescribed."
Sir K. Wood: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment is necessary because in some cases by local legislation provision for superannuation of mental hospital employés under an Act of 1909 is made by means of superannuation funds, and the Bill as it stands does not envisage these cases.
SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Resolved,
"That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 2932, for extending section one of that Act to the urban district of Ruislip-Northwood, which was presented on the 8th day of July, 2937, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending section one of that Act to the borough of Ramsgate, which was presented on the 19th day of July, 1937, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending section one of that Act to the borough of Wood Green, which was presented on the 20th day of July, 1937, be approved."—[Mr. Lloyd.]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twelve Minutes after One o'Clock a.m.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  MOTOR CAR ACCIDENTS (POLICE PROCEDURE).
  MOTOR CAR ACCIDENTS (POLICE PROCEDURE).
  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (JUTE GOODS).
  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (JUTE GOODS).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  HEXHAM, PRUDHOE AND HALTWHISTLE.
  HEXHAM, PRUDHOE AND HALTWHISTLE.
  SEASIDE RESORTS (BUSINESS HOUSE STAFFS).
  SEASIDE RESORTS (BUSINESS HOUSE STAFFS).
  TEAM VALLEY TRADING ESTATE.
  TEAM VALLEY TRADING ESTATE.
  GRIMSBY (STATISTICS).
  GRIMSBY (STATISTICS).
  GATESHEAD.
  GATESHEAD.
  COST-OF-LIVING INDEX (COMMITTEE).
  COST-OF-LIVING INDEX (COMMITTEE).
COAL INDUSTRY.
  ACCIDENTS, SOUTH WALES (BOYS).
  ACCIDENTS, SOUTH WALES (BOYS).
  SOUTH AND WEST YORKSHIRE.
  SOUTH AND WEST YORKSHIRE.
  RHONDDA DISTRICT.
  RHONDDA DISTRICT.
HOUSING.
  EXCHEQUER GRANTS (RE-HOUSING).
  EXCHEQUER GRANTS (RE-HOUSING).
  NON-PARLOUR HOUSES (COSTS).
  NON-PARLOUR HOUSES (COSTS).
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (APPROVED SOCIETIES).
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (APPROVED SOCIETIES).
  INSURANCE COMPANIES (STATISTICS).
  INSURANCE COMPANIES (STATISTICS).
  TRAMP SHIPPING SUBSIDY (SALE OF SHIPS).
  TRAMP SHIPPING SUBSIDY (SALE OF SHIPS).
  STATE INSURANCE SCHEMES (FUNDS).
  STATE INSURANCE SCHEMES (FUNDS).
  SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH (SUBSIDIES).
  SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH (SUBSIDIES).
  SCOTTISH BURGHS (STATUS).
  SCOTTISH BURGHS (STATUS).
  MILK MARKETING SCHEME.
  MILK MARKETING SCHEME.
  THE CAMEROONS.
  THE CAMEROONS.
  SOUTH AFRICA (HIGH COMMIS SION TERRITORIES).
  SOUTH AFRICA (HIGH COMMIS SION TERRITORIES).
  SPAIN.
  SPAIN.
  ANGLO-ARGENTINE TRADE AGREEMENT.
  ANGLO-ARGENTINE TRADE AGREEMENT.
  DEFENCE (PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM SUPPLY).
  DEFENCE (PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM SUPPLY).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

CARDIFF EXTENSION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, I have been asked at short notice to move the Third Reading of this Bill, and perhaps it would be convenient for your Lordships if I give a very brief account of it. This is one of those extension Bills of which both Houses of Parliament have a good number nowadays, and its purpose is to enable the very large City of Cardiff to add on to its area the neighbouring district of Rumney. Cardiff, as your Lordships are aware, is; in the County of Glamorgan, and Rumney is in the County of Monmouth and is therefore, strictly speaking, in England. This Bill had its origin in the House of Commons, and there it went through the ordinary procedure of Private Bills. It was given a Second Reading and was then remitted to a Select Committee, which sat for four days. It was read a third time and sent to your Lordships' House. In this House also it was remitted to a Select Committee, of which my noble friend Lord Redesdale was Chairman, and it was before that Select Committee for six days. So that the Bill has been for ten days before Select Committees of the two Houses. Those of your Lordships who have sat on Select Committees will be aware that the work done on Private Bills is of such a nature as could not be conveniently done on the floor of the House. The promoters and petitioners are represented by counsel; there are a number of witnesses called, borough surveyors, engineers and chartered accountants; there are expert witnesses; numbers of tables on financial matters and the like are put in; and the walls of the Committee Room are generally hung with maps and plans. That, I think, is sufficient to show your Lordships that this sort of question cannot be conveniently debated on the floor of the House.
In this particular instance the real point is that this district of Rumney in
1002
the County of Monmouth is largely used by workers in Cardiff for living purposes, and is becoming, in fact, a suburb of Cardiff. It is increasing in population and in built up areas. The City of Cardiff, not unnaturally, wishes to acquire control over it and to be in a position to supply it with the public services which are provided within the City. There is no doubt also that they wish to be able to draw the revenue from it which at present is drawn by the County Council of Monmouth. On the other hand, the Monmouthshire County Council very naturally do not want to lose this area, which is financially promising. Moreover, they think they can provide the necessary services, and at any rate they have provided services which have been good enough in the past. There is another point which one might call sentimental, although I do not use the word in any critical spirit. Monmouthshire is in England and Cardiff is in Wales. It is suggested that by joining this district of Rumney to the City of Cardiff you would take a piece of England and add it on to Wales. Those two principal points, the financial point and what I may call the sentimental point, have both been fully before the Select Committee and the Select Committee have taken special care that financial adjustment should be made which would be equitable as between the county council, the local authority and the City. As regards the other point, the boundary point, they have specially enjoined that, though for administrative purposes the new district shall be joined on to the City, for all other purposes it shall remain, as it has hitherto done, in the County of Monmouth.
As I say, this Bill was most carefully considered before a Select Committee of your Lordships' House; and my noble friend Lord Redesdale, if I may say so without impertinence, is properly considered by those who are best able to judge one of the most competent Chairmen of Select Committees in this House. I know that the practice of objecting to a Private Bill on Third Reading is naturally completely within the competence of the House, but in point of fact it is hardly ever done and on the one or two occasions on which it has been proposed to throw out a Bill of this nature on Third Reading, your Lordships have invariably been against it.

1003
What, in fact, would result otherwise would be that all the time and money that have been spent in the two Houses on getting this Bill through would be entirely wasted and the same process would have to be begun again next year. That is really all I need say at this stage. My noble friend the Lord Chairman is in his place and will be able to put before your Lordships the practice of the House as regards Bills of this nature, and as regards the details of the Bill my noble friend Lord Redesdale will no doubt say far better than I can what the rights of the case are. I may say that I have no connection with the matter myself, but I not infrequently sit as Chairman of Select Committees and I am conversant with the usual procedure. If it is necessary, after my noble friend has put his side of the case forward, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to reply. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Viscount Mersey.)
LORD RAGLAN,LORD RAGLAN, who had given Notice that on the Motion for the Third Reading he would move that the Bill be read 3a this day six months, said: My Lords, I should first explain, in taking the rather unusual course of moving the rejection of this Bill on the Third Reading, that the reason why this is done is that it was considered by the County Council of which I am a member that to oppose a Bill of this kind on Second Reading would almost inevitably lead to failure. People would say that neither side had had the opportunity of putting their case, and if the Bill passed a Second Reading, then its principle would have been approved and it would for all practical purposes become law, for we say that no amendment of this Bill is possible; we wish it to be rejected. It therefore becomes my duty as a member of the Monmouthshire County Council to give your Lordships the reasons why you should reject this Bill.
In doing so I shall as far as possible not deal with the points which were raised before my noble friend Lord Redesdale in Committee, but try to stick to more major issues. I am not going into the history of the system of county boroughs, but I would remind your Lordships that as they exist nowadays they are very different from what they were when they were first started. In the
1004
old days the forms of administration by county council and county borough were very much simpler. Now things are much more complex. The effect of the county borough system as it now exists is that you have, in most of the large cities and towns, two complete sets of local government officials: two chief constables and their whole staffs, two directors of education, two county librarians, two medical officers of health, and so on. The result is that not merely is most of the local work of the county duplicated, but there are rivalries between these officials, between the councils who appoint them and the people who elect those councils. Therefore in many counties of England, my own among them, you find that instead of the capital of the county being the centre of the county, the people of the capital are regarded by the people of the county almost as enemies. This is one of the absurd results that you get from this county borough system. I am speaking against the county borough system as a whole because I think that, except in the case of very great cities, it should be abolished.
Not only do we have this rivalry between these officials, in which, as I say, you often find two men doing one man's work, but you get these perpetual squabbles over the boundaries. The result of these squabbles is that no county council which has a county borough adjoining it knows from year to year where its boundaries should be. It is therefore unable to do its duty efficiently and to look ahead in the matters which it has to administer, especially that of education. Adjoining nearly every county borough there are urban areas. The county council has to provide for secondary education in these areas, and if it puts a secondary school just outside a borough boundary it knows that at the next grab the county borough will grab the school and the county council will have a set of pupils but no school. If it puts its school away from the borough boundary, it knows that at the next grab, or the next grab but one, it will have a school but no pupils. This happened in this particular case. Three or four years ago the Monmouthshire County Council completed a secondary school to serve the area between Newport and Cardiff. Along

1005
comes Newport, the county borough, and grabs one end of the area, and now along comes Cardiff trying to grab the other. I suggest to your Lordships that no proper county administration is possible in these circumstances.
In our county we have had a county review under the Local Government Act. Our areas have all been redistributed. This particular area with which we are now dealing was created a rural district by amalgamation of two rural districts which were too weak to stand by themselves. Now along comes Cardiff and takes a part of that rural district, so that the remainder will not be able to function properly at all. The result of this continual grabbing of bits by the county boroughs is that county councils are being reduced to such impoverished areas or such odd corners as no borough covets. The boroughs nearly always get whatever they want, and if this Bill goes through they will always get what they want. No case could ever be put up for the extension of any borough which would, according to those who know, be weaker than this case. If this Bill goes through, any future objection to the extension of a borough will be a waste of time. What happens is this—it is almost common form. The borough draws up a schedule containing twice as much as it really wants, and then, as the Bill goes through the Committee in Parliament, by what is known as a compromise the borough sheds all it does not really want, and then by the time the Bill goes through, it gets all it wants and the county is graciously permitted to keep what it does not want.
So much for that part of the question. This case is peculiar in that the City in question is part of Wales, whereas the County is part of England. I do not know whether that point needs arguing, but I would remind your Lordships that by the Act of Henry VIII Monmouthshire was put into England. We need not go back into ancient history, however, because by the Local Government Act, 1933, it was recognised that Monmouthshire was a part of England. It is true, of course, that for many Acts Monmouthshire has been included with Wales, but this is merely for administrative convenience. I may say that the people of Monmouthshire have never been consulted in any way as to whether they wish to be part of Wales or not. Your
1006
Lordships may, or may not, know that there is in Wales a Home Rule movement, which is growing. Your Lordships may remember that certain leaders of the Home Rule movement were imprisoned last year for setting fire to one of His Majesty's aerodromes. I am not suggesting that all the members of the movement are of this type, but there are quite a number of members, and before many years have passed there may be some form of Home Rule for Wales, in which Monmouthshire will not be included.
What then will be the position of this area? Lord Mersey told you that a clause has been put into the Bill providing that this area will remain part of England. I suggest to your Lordships that it will not remain part of England. If you look at the Bill you will see that by Clause 27 the county police are transferred to Cardiff, that by Clause 28 the police stations are transferred to Cardiff, and that by Clause 29 the public elementary schools are transferred to Cardiff. A word on the schools. Once the schools have been transferred they will become part of the Cardiff education system, and if the Cardiff Corporation think fit to make education in Welsh compulsory they will make it compulsory in this area. I do not think that in those circumstances any one could regard this area as part of England. Your Lordships may think that this prospect is remote, but a few days ago I was told of a parish outside Cardiff, of which the inhabitants all speak English, but where some who know Welsh got themselves elected to the council, and they do their work in Welsh. If this goes on we may find, after a time, that all education will be in Welsh, and that the people in this area will be compelled to talk Welsh.
Could they then be said to be a part of England? The only matter for which they are part of England will be the Assizes, but as in the ordinary way justice will be administered by the magistrates at Cardiff in Wales, it will really result, in my view, that for all other purposes this area will be in Wales. If Home Rule for Wales ever comes it is inconceivable that this part should be cut off from the City of which it has become an integral part, and be restored to England, to which it belongs. My objection to this Bill is that it is carrying further than ever this principle by which

1007
county boroughs are able to grab at will, or almost at will, territory from the counties, and thereby preventing the counties from functioning properly as administrative bodies. Moreover, this Bill perpetrates an anomaly of an international character. The noble Lord said it was rather late for a Motion to throw out this Bill, but it is better late than never. It is a bad Bill in my judgment and I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day six months"). —(Lord Raglan.)
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, as I had the honour to preside over the Committee which your Lordships appointed to sit upstairs to consider this Bill, it falls to my lot to explain to your Lordships what the Committee did, and why they did it. Before I go any further I may perhaps explain very briefly, for the benefit of certain noble Lords who are not usually able to take any part in the work upstairs, the principles which guide the Committee upstairs when they are considering a matter of an extension. In the first place they have to be satisfied that an extension of area of some sort is necessary, or at all events extremely desirable. Secondly, they have to be satisfied that the administration of the county borough which comes to Parliament and asks for an extension, is of such a nature that the area to be taken in might reasonably expect the proper public services to which it would be entitled. Thirdly, they would have to consider the hardship, or otherwise, which might fall upon the area to be taken in. I say "or otherwise" because, of course, in certain cases at all events, the area to be taken in would inevitably derive great benefit. Fourthly, they would have to consider the hardship that may fall on other parties than the actual areas concerned.
Taking the first point, that is the point of necessity, while it is perfectly true that there is still in the City of Cardiff a considerable area of land which is not yet built upon, the Committee were satisfied that, for a variety of reasons, this land was not suitable for the erection of houses of the character that was required. In the first place open spaces, parks and playing fields are not only desirable, but
1008
they are really an absolute necessity. They are essential to a City such as Cardiff. Some of the remaining land is unsuitable for physical reasons. Some is much too valuable to be utilised for the purpose of erecting the sort of houses required, and much needs filling up before it is made suitable for building, on account of its level in relation to the sea and consequent subjection to flooding. When this land is built up, which takes a great deal of time, it still has to be left for a matter of fifteen years or more to settle, before it becomes suitable for the erection of houses. Lastly, there is the geographical position of the available land in Cardiff, much of the land being on the wrong side of the City from the place where the work of the occupiers would lie. For these reasons the Committee considered that the point of necessity for the acquisition of some new area was proved.
Then you come to the question of administration. A Committee of your Lordships' House would be very loath to allow extension of any sort where the administration of a county borough was shown to be even of an indifferent character, but the administration of Cardiff can certainly be described as extremely perfect, and this is clear from two facts. The first is that the rates are no more than 12s. 4d. Secondly, where there is the least ground for criticism of the administration of a county borough every conceivable use of such ground would be made by the opponents as arguments against extension, and the fact that no attack of any sort was made upon the administration of Cardiff may be taken as showing quite clearly that there is, in fact, no room for such criticism.
Thirdly, you come to the question of hardship or otherwise for the area to be taken in. There is no doubt whatever that Rumney has everything to gain by being taken into Cardiff. Rumney wishes it, and has been asking Cardiff for the last six years to be taken in. A card vote of the electorate was recently taken. Of the electors 78½ per cent. voted, and of the valid votes 84½ per cent. were in favour of inclusion in Cardiff and 15½ per cent. against. This desire on the part of the inhabitants carried great weight with the Committee in arriving at a decision. Perhaps I might read a very short extract from the findings of the Royal Commission on Local Government:

1009
"When the wishes of the inhabitants have been fairly ascertained we think that, although, as has been stated, they cannot be regarded as conclusive, the weight to be attached to them is so great that they ought not to be overruled unless it is shown that there are considerations of public advantage which, in the opinion of the proper authorities, are more weighty and of greater importance than the objections of the inhabitants."
That Commission is quite constantly quoted upstairs and the Committees are very largely guided by its findings. That is the finding to which people attach more importance than any other.
The rate required to meet the expenditure in Cardiff is, in round figures, 12s. 3½d., and in Rumney the equivalent rate is 20s. 8d. Now the ratepayer of Rumney could not reasonably expect that the rates would fall at once to the ordinary City rates, but the question of differential rating will be settled by the Minister of Health under Clause 56 of the Bill. But this was by no means the principal factor in the decision of the inhabitants of Rumney to join Cardiff. They expect to derive advantages in many other ways, such for instance, as education, sewerage, scavenging, police, public lighting, public health, in fact, all public services. And Rumney is really, in fact, a dormitory of Cardiff: it is occupied to-day mainly by Cardiff people. According to a census taken quite recently the occupants in Romney of 857 houses out of a total of 1,199 houses are actually employed in Cardiff. Therefore, far from there being any hardship, it would be to the great advantage of Rumney, and it is their own wish, that they should be taken into Cardiff.
Then you come to the question of hardship on other parties. Here, of course, there comes the question of the County Council and the Rural District Council. The objections of the County Council and the Rural District Council, as represented to the Committee, were based principally on financial grounds. In fact, these were the only real grounds for objection. Now, it is of course perfectly true that in the loss of Rumney to Cardiff the County of Monmouth and the Rural District Council of Magor and Saint Mellons, who are the people concerned, are being deprived of very considerable rateable value, but it is also perfectly true that that rateable value has been largely created by Cardiff. None the less, the Committee were very greatly impressed by the loss which
1010
might be sustained by what is unfortunately a distressed area, and for this reason, following upon assurances given over and over again by the promoters that they wished to deal generously with the County Council and the Rural District Council, the Committee inserted in the Bill provisions designed to ensure that the Councils would not suffer financial loss as a result of the transfer of the area. They are contained in a proviso to Clause 36. These provisions are so very far in excess of the general law for compensation in the Local Government Act, 1933, that the Committee went so far as to consider it advisable to insert in the Preamble of the Bill a recital of the special circumstances, in order that the provisions in question should not be quoted as a precedent in other cases. Thus, the Committee considered that the hardship on the other parties was disposed of.
An objection was also raised to which the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, has already referred, to the effect that this Bill would-transfer part of England to Wales: but although the Bill proposes to add the parish of Rumney to the City of Cardiff for certain administrative and local government purposes, there seemed perfectly good ground for thinking that the Bill as it stood would not alter the status of Rumney as a component part of the geographical County of Monmouth, and therefore of England. The Committee, however, did not wish this point to be left in any sort of doubt. They wanted to make it perfectly clear, and they therefore inserted a clause in the Bill, Clause 62, which reads:
"Nothing in this Act shall alter the boundary between the County of Glamorgan and the County of Monmouth, and the added area shall continue to form part of the County of Monmouth."
There is nothing novel or unusual in a county borough including parts of more than one geographical county. One could give any number of instances of this; there is nothing fresh about it at all. I think I was right in understanding that the real objection of the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, seemed to have been directed not so much against the provisions of this particular Bill, but that he is opposed to any extension anywhere on any grounds. I think that is what he was trying to argue. If that is so, I submit that it is a matter for general

1011
legislation and could be approached by way of a Motion on the floor of the House at any time.
I have endeavoured to give as shortly as possible the reasons that led the Committee to report the Bill to your Lordships with certain Amendments. After sitting upstairs for six days and listening to over 2,500 questions and answers, with tables and figures and addresses by counsel, I could of course have gone into far greater detail, but I imagine your Lordships would not have thanked me for so doing. I trust that in coming to a decision on this Amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, your Lordships will bear this in mind, that this Bill was deposited in Parliament in November last and prints have been available ever since that date for inspection by members of either House of Parliament. This Bill originated in the House of Commons, and has passed through all its stages in that House. It was brought to your Lordships' House on April 14, and your Lordships are now asked, at the very last moment, to reject the Bill on grounds which might have been raised at any of the various stages in either House of Parliament. It is, of course, always open to any noble Lord, at any stage, to oppose the progress of any Bill, and I make no complaint about that; but putting it off until this stage is, I submit, a little hard on the parties who have spent thousands of pounds on promotion and opposition. In fact, if there is a more inconvenient method of opposing legislation, I personally am not acquainted with it. It is very regrettable that this particular method should be used unless, of course, new facts or arguments have come to light, which is, I submit, not the case here. I would earnestly hope that your Lordships will now give this Bill a Third Reading.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I very much hope your Lordships will support the Committee over which my noble friend Lord Redesdale presided and accept the Preamble of the Bill. Lord Redesdale has given your Lordships a full account of the strenuous passage which this Bill has had through both Houses of Parliament, and he has also described to you the number of days upon which his Committee sat discussing its
1012
provisions. A few days ago a not dissimilar case to this was brought up in your Lordships' House—the London Passenger Transport Board Bill. That was slightly different because in that case an Amendment to the Third Reading was moved while in this case your Lordships are asked to reject the Bill altogether. I venture to think there is not much real difference between the cases, however. I quoted at the time the authority of the noble Earl, the late Lord Wemyss, as to the undesirability of interfering with the decision of a Committee whose members have had every opportunity of considering the provisions of a Bill, who have heard counsel and witnesses and affidavits, and who have very often visited the spot in regard to which the dispute takes place, and so forth. I also quoted the authority of my noble friend Lord Ullswater, who is in his place today and who will be able to give your Lordships, if it is so desired, his view as to the strong undesirability of upsetting the decision of a Committee. At the same time I say quite frankly that it is entirely within your Lordships' province to reject a Bill or do anything your Lordships please at any stage. That is entirely correct and in your Lordships' power, but it is unusual and, I think, undesirable that the findings of a Committee should be upset in the House by a Motion for rejecting a Bill on Third Reading in this manner.
Lord Raglan has stated that he did not oppose the Second Reading for the reasons he gave. He preferred to do so on Third Reading. I have been into this question rather carefully. Proposals to reject a Bill of this nature on Second Reading have been before your Lordships on occasions in the past, and on more than one occasion—certainly on one occasion in my recollection—your Lordships have accepted the Motion for the rejection, and the Bill has been thrown out. But I cannot find any case in which a Bill which has been through Committee and has been opposed in Committee has been rejected upon Third Reading by your Lordships' House. It is, as I say, entirely within the province of your Lordships to reject a Bill on Third Reading, but your Lordships have never seen fit to exercise that right, and I very much hope that your Lordships will adhere to the practice which has governed your

1013
proceedings in the past. I do not want to touch on the merits of the Bill in any way, but I would like to say one word in regard to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Raglan in respect of the extension of county boroughs. I understood him to feel that the creation of county boroughs of any kind was wholly undesirable.
LORD RAGLAN: Except by agreement—I make that qualification.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: This is a very old story. Some fourteen years ago I had the honour of being Chairman of the Royal Commission which went into the whole question of county borough creations and extensions, and after some few years we produced a Report which has been quoted by my noble friend Lord Redesdale. I am not going to have the impertinence to quote myself as an authority to your Lordships, but I shall quote one of the witnesses—Mr. Dent, an alderman of the Essex County Council, a very prominent member of the County Councils' Association, and one of the chief witnesses for the county councils. This was the question which was addressed to Mr. Dent:
"There is another view which is possible … and I would like to know what you think about it. What would you think upon this; that a borough might be constituted a county borough if, after taking into consideration all the circumstances and weighing the advantages on the one hand and the disadvantages on the other hand, it is shown to be desirable, not necessarily in the interests of both parties, but the advantages of constituting it outweighed the disadvantages on the other side?"
That was the question which was addressed to Mr. Dent, and in reply Mr. Dent said this:
"I agree, of course, with the view that there must be a compromise. I think it is obvious that the interests of all parties cannot be the same, therefore there must be a balance, and advantages must be weighed on the one hand against advantages on the other, and the same with disadvantages. It must always be in the long run something in the nature of balancing the harm you do to one person against the good you do to another."
That was stated by the most prominent witness for the County Councils' Association. It is quite clear from that that he did not dissent from the view that these extensions were necessary and in some cases desirable, and that in making them Committees should be guided by the principles he laid down in that answer.
1014
That, I may say, was the substance of what the Commission reported upon his evidence.
I come to the next point which I went into myself at some considerable length, and that is Clause 62, which my noble friend read to your Lordships. Lord Raglan said that only the question of Assize was involved. There is one other institution which I may add—namely, the Territorial Army with which my noble friend is associated. The present district of Rumney will remain in the County of Monmouth for Territorial Army purposes and will not be merged in Wales. I think, therefore, that the noble Lords of the border who regard their precious heritage of English soil will not have to surrender under this Bill anything to Wales, but they will, as is said in the song of W. S. Gilbert, remain Englishmen. I do not want to add anything to what has been said in the past by noble Lords, but I do hope that your Lordships will bear in mind the debate which took place the other day in regard to the London Passenger Transport Board Bill, and that your Lordships will support my noble friend's Committee and agree to the Third Reading of this Bill.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, now that this Bill has been opposed I would like to take the opportunity of supporting the noble Lord who has moved the rejection on general grounds, and I would like to reinforce some of the ideas he has brought forward. He has explained the local circumstances in great detail. I feel with him that the extension of county boroughs without agreement is contrary to the best interests of local government. One must remember that the local government review of 1930, which was the outcome of the Report of the Royal Commission which has been referred to by the noble Earl, was done by agreement all over the country, and, seeing that a periodical review of all country districts is to take place every ten years, one would have thought a period of ten years to be long enough in which to collect sufficient evidence and reasons for the extension of a county borough. The reason which the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, has given—namely, to allow county administrations to continue in a settled and orderly way for ten years—is, in practice, very powerful. I think all who have had experience of

1015
local government will deplore the unsatisfactory condition of rivalry, as it were, between county boroughs and county councils for the more desirable parts of their areas from the rateable point of view. That is a situation which has developed with the recent growth of local government, and it is a situation towards the solution of which we are at present no nearer.
I would like to refer your Lordships to the most recent Report of a Royal Commission on Local Government. It is a Report upon local government for Tyneside. I will ask your Lordships' indulgence for introducing a subject that may seem to be irrelevant to this discussion, but in fact I think it has a good deal to do with it, not from the point of view of any argument of similarity between the districts, but because of the conclusions come to by that Royal Commission. The purpose of its inquiry was to find the best form of local government for a large area containing both town and country, part of that area being what is known as a Special Area, as is also the part of the County of Monmouth to which this Bill applies. The conclusion of that Commission was entirely against the county borough system. They stated that in their scheme county boroughs formed no part, and they recommended a regional system—a system of combining the town and country—and incorporating with the regional council the dual system of local government which had been found so very satisfactory in the county areas generally. I do not say that that Report can be applied to the particular case that we are now discussing, but I think that it very greatly strengthens the case for declining to pass any Bill to give advantage to a county borough at the present time. I think that Report calls for a very much more thorough investigation of the tendencies of local government than was included in the much more local investigation
that was conducted by the Royal Commission to which I have referred.
It has been said that a poll was taken of the inhabitants of the parishes it is proposed to transfer to the County Borough of Cardiff. It is, perhaps, not being too cynical to say that any local government elector would always choose to go into the local government area where the rates were lowest. The noble Earl referred to the Report of the Royal Commission. One passage in that Report says:
"… there are considerations of public advantage which, in the opinion of the proper authorities, are more weighty and of greater importance than the objections of the inhabitants."
In my view the good government of the remainder of the County is a consideration of sufficient advantage to overrule the wishes of the local inhabitants themselves. I believe that extensions of county boroughs under the present system are inopportune, and that the system needs revision. For that reason I hope your Lordships will oppose the passage of this Bill. Not that I wish to criticise in any way the administration of the County Borough of Cardiff, but those of us who are interested in county council work feel that it is a continual struggle for a county council to maintain itself as an efficient and economic unit when it is continually being reduced by attacks from neighbouring county boroughs, which, from their point of view I agree, are entirely justified. It is reasonable that as a town grows and its inhabitants spread outside it should wish to extend its boundaries in order to take in those inhabitants, but I submit that the splitting up of county boroughs and county councils into separate areas is far from being a satisfactory system.
On Question, Whether the word "now" shall stand part of the Motion?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 48; Not-Contents, 3.

CONTENTS.

Hailsham, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Dartmouth, E.

Samuel, V.

Halifax, V. (L. President.)

Iddesleigh, E.

Trenchard, V.

Lucan, E.

De La Warr, E. (L. Privy Seal.)

Midleton, E.

Addison, L.

Onslow, E.

Ailwyn, L.

Plymouth, E.

Arnold, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Ashfield, L.

Dufferin and Ava, M.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Bayford, L.

Exeter, M.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Clanwilliam, L (E. Clanwilliam.)

Salisbury, M.

Horne of Slamannan, V.

Zetland, M.

Mersey, V. [Teller.]

Clwyd, L.

Denham, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Denman, L.

Phillimore, L.

Elton, L.

Redesdale, L. [Teller.]

Strickland, L.

Holden, L.

Rennell, L.

Templemore, L.

Hutchison of Montrose, L.

St. Levan, L.

Teynham, L.

Lurgan, L.

Sandhurst, L.

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.)

Mancroft, L.

Stanmore, L.

Wyfold, L.

Marks, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Ridley, V. [Teller.]

Luke, L.

Raglan, L. [Teller.]

Resolved in the affirmative and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

COAL MINES (EMPLOYMENT OF BOYS) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
SOUTHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
STAFFORDSHIRE POTTERIES WATER BOARD BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
WATFORD CORPORATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
LIVERPOOL UNITED HOSPITAL BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
BRISTOL TRANSPORT BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
CANVEY ISLAND URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
DARTFORD TUNNEL BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
SAINT PAUL'S AND SAINT JAMES' CHURCHES (SHEFFIELD) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for the remainder of the Session.—(Viscount Halifax.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (BIRMINGHAM TAME AND REA MAIN SEWERAGE DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (WISBECH WATER) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (YEADON WATER) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (CLEVEDON WATER) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
ABERDEEN CORPORATION (WATER GAS ELECTRICITY AND TRANS- PORT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
ELGIN AND LOSSIEMOUTH HAR- BOUR ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
PAISLEY CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPERAN- NUATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

NIGERIA (REMISSION OF PAYMENTS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Fourth Report from the Select Committee made; to be printed, and to be considered to-morrow.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, before we adjourn perhaps I might be allowed to say that my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, who has a Question on the Paper for Thursday afternoon, has asked me whether I could assist him by arranging business without inconvenience to your Lordships generally so that his question should be taken after four o'clock. As the other business is not likely to occupy much time, I would propose therefore, unless any of your Lordships see objection, that the House should meet for public business on Thursday at four o'clock instead of at three o'clock.
House adjourned at ten minutes past four o'clock.