Sitting of 21 July 1937

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bridlington) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Guildford) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Rhymney Valley Sewerage District and Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Sewerage District) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Selby) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (South East Essex Joint Hospital District) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Tynemouth) Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Aberdeen Corporation (Water Gas Electricity and Transport) Order Confirmation Bill,
Clyde Valley Electrical Power Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],
Elgin and Lossiemouth Harbour Order Confirmation Bill,
Ferguson Bequest Fund Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],
Paisley Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,
Royal Samaritan Hospital for Women Glasgow Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Morecambe and Heysham) Bill [Lords],
Read a Second time, and committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  SPAIN.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give particulars with regard to the working of the non-intervention scheme up to date, including information as to the quantity and type of equipment supplied to both sides which has come to the notice of the board, and the dates on which it was supplied?
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my Noble Friend to a question on the same subject asked by the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) on 25th June, to which I have nothing to add.
  Mr. Mander: Will there be submitted to the House a report on the work done by the board?
  Mr. Eden: The answer to which I have referred the hon. Member is a very full one.
  Miss Wilkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any report from the British Consul at Bilbao relative to the consulate at Bilbao, and whether the building suffered in any way during the fighting and the capture of the town?
  Mr. Eden: I am informed that the building is undamaged except for broken windows.
  Miss Wilkinson: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that in the extreme pro-Franco Press in this country, a great deal has been made out of the alleged sacking of the consulate in Bilbao by the Basques?
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: Will a claim be made to the Basques for damages?
  Mr. Wedgwood Benn: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question. He was asked whether he had received any report from the British consul. Has he received a report from the British Consul, and if so, what did the Consul say?
  Mr. Eden: No, Sir. We have not got a British Consul in Bilbao.
  Mr. Benn: Did not the right hon. Gentleman inform me a week ago that a consular officer had proceeded to Bilbao?
  Mr. Eden: I do not want to deceive the House. A consular officer is not the same as a consul. He is there to look after our archives. I am sorry if I misled the right hon. Gentleman; I did not mean to do so.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any time-limit has been set or is contemplated to the proceedings of the Non-Intervention Committee; to what extent in the meantime the system of inspection by land or sea is being carried out; and with what result?
  Mr. Eden: The answer to the first part of the question is "No, Sir," though His Majesty's Representative on the Committee has made it clear that His Majesty's Government could not agree to any undue delay. As regards the second part, the system of observation has been suspended in respect of the land frontiers between Spain, France and Portugal but is still in operation with respect to the the merchant ships flying the flags of countries parties to the Non-Intervention Agreements.
  Mr. Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that a strict time limit is applied in view of the very obvious intention of Germany and Italy to sabotage the proceedings already?
  Mr. Eden: I think the position of the Government has already been made clear both in my statement and in that of my Noble Friend in the Committee.
  Mr. Thorne: What is the position now, and what is really going on at this Committee?
  Mr. Vyvyan Adamsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply has been received from the insurgents in Spain regarding our demands for the safety of the crew of the merchantmen recently seized by the insurgent fleet?
  Mr. Eden: I have been in touch this morning with His Majesty's Ambassador at Hendaye and I understand that though
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  no official communication from General Franco's Government on this subject has yet been received, there is reason to believe that the crews of the two British ships in question are being treated with every courtesy. In the case of the "Candleston Castle" His Majesty's Consul at Corunna has been given facilities to be present at the inquiry on board the ship at Ferrol, and he has reported that all is well on board.
  Mr. Benn: Has the same courtesy been extended to the captain of the "Candleston Castle"?
  Mr. Adams: Does the Secretary of State know when these men are likely to be released?
  Mr. Eden: I do not think I can add anything to what I have said, but I hope there will be more information to-morrow.
  Mr. R. Aclandasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether instructions have been sent to British warships to cover the case of a British merchant ship inside territorial waters which refused to pay attention to a warning shot fired across its bows by an insurgent warship outside territorial waters, and was thereupon fired on by the insurgent warship?
  The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Duff Cooper): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Prime Minister to the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) on 19th July. It has been repeatedly stated that when British ships enter territorial waters they do so at their own risk. If when in territorial waters they refuse to comply with the demands of Spanish warships and are consequently subjected to force, they will not be afforded the protection of His Majesty's ships unless the force used is greater than the circumstances warrant.
  Mr. Acland: In view of the fact that the Government have said that it would not be permissible for an insurgent ship to fire from outside territorial waters at a British ship inside territorial waters, does the right hon. Gentleman mean the House to understand that a British warship will stand by and watch a British ship being hit by shells in those circumstances? Is that so or not? Can he tell us?
  Mr. Cooper: The position of a British warship, if the circumstances described by the hon. Member—which have not, I am glad to say, arisen—were to arise, would certainly be extremely unpleasant. I therefore, hope we can rely upon the good sense of masters of British merchant ships not to create such difficulties.
  Mr. Benn: What was the duty of the captain of a British warship yesterday or the day before when a Spaniard from outside territorial waters attempted to sink the "Candleston Castle"? What was he to do; was he ordered to stand by and allow the ship to be sunk? That is not a hypothetical case?
  Mr. Cooper: The position of a British ship in territorial waters is the same as the position of a British subject in Spain. If a private person goes into a country where a civil war is going on or if a ship goes into territorial waters where a civil war is going on, they must accept the orders which they are given.
  Mr. Acland: On a point of Order. I give notice that these replies are so unsatisfactory that I will raise the matter at the earliest opportunity.
  Mr. Bennasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether His Majesty's ships are instructed as to signalling to British merchantmen held captive by the Spanish rebels on the high seas?
  Mr. Cooper: No, Sir. The matter is left entirely to the discretion of the commanding officers of His Majesty's ships.
  Mr. Benn: Did the "Royal Oak" make any signals to the "Molton" when she was taken captive with 30 British subjects on board?
  Mr. Cooper: I should want notice of that question.
  Mr. Benn: But I asked that question some time ago.
  Captain Arthur Evans: Is it not a fact that the Captain of the "Molton" had specific instructions from the charter party and also from the owners that in the event of any signal or advice being received from His Majesty's naval authorities he should immediately accept it, without question?
  Mr. Benn: But is it not a fact that the First Lord told me that the "Royal Oak" made no signal to the "Molton"?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has any statement to make regarding the capture of the steamship "Candle-stone Castle" and the firing upon the steamship "Sarastone" and the steamship "Grandstone" by Spanish insurgent naval forces?
  Mr. Cooper: I understand that the steamship "Candlestone Castle" and the steamship "Sarastone" both attempted to enter Gijon on the morning of Saturday, 17th July. No British warship was present at the time, but from messages which have been received by the naval authorities from the steamship "Candle-stone Castle," it appears that when the two ships were within Spanish territorial waters warning shots were fired across their bows by the Spanish insurgent warship "Jupiter." The steamship "Sara-stone," which was nearer the shore, succeeded in getting safely into port, but the "Candlestone Castle" submitted and was captured. I understand that she was taken to Ferrol. I have no information as to any British ship called the steamship "Grandstone."
  Miss Wilkinson: Is not the attitude of the British Government in fact recognising General Franco's belligerent rights in this matter instead of treating him as a pirate, which in fact he is until he is recognised?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Is it not a fact that the "Sarastone" was repeatedly fired on by the insurgent vessel from outside territorial waters?
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: Can my right hon. Friend say what this vessel was doing inside Spanish territorial waters?
  Mr. Cooper: According to such information as I have, she was not fired on. They fired twice across her bows, and after that she was not fired on.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Did not the right hon. Gentleman read the report from the master himself that he had shots fired through his rigging?
  Mr. Cooper: No, Sir.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: Can my right hon. Friend say what is the difference between volunteers on Spanish land and volunteers in Spanish waters?
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is it not the case that no ships of the Navy were present in order to afford these ships protection up to the limit of the territorial waters, had they required it?
  Mr. Cooper: That is another question. These ships did not ask for any particular protection. His Majesty's ships cannot be outside every port in Spain.

  SAUDI ARABIA (IMPORTATION OF SLAVES).
  Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the agreement with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which includes the prohibition of the importation of slaves, has been put into operation; and whether he has received any reports from our consular representatives giving information as to the success which has followed this agreement?
  Mr. Eden: The importation of slaves into Saudi Arabia is governed by Regulations issued by the Saudi Arabian Government on 2nd October, 1936, forbidding their importation by sea and limiting their importation by land to persons who can be proved to have been recognised as slaves in the country from which they are imported. I have no reason to suppose that these regulations are not being executed correctly.
  Captain Cazalet: Since recent events in Abyssinia, has my right hon. Friend been getting any reports as to slaves coming from there?
  Mr. Eden: The question referred to Saudi Arabia.

  PALESTINE (ROYAL COMMISSION'S REPORT).
  Colonel Nathanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether before or after the publication of the Report of the Royal Commission on Palestine and His Majesty's Government's statement of policy, and, if so, when, the report and/or statement of policy have been communicated to any and which foreign Governments; and whether any replies have been received and their purport?
  Mr. Eden: The Report of the Royal Commission on Palestine, and the statement of policy of His Majesty's Govern-
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  ment thereon, were, in accordance with customary practice, communicated to the diplomatic representatives of all foreign Governments represented in London at the same time as they were laid before Parliament. In the case of a few distant countries specially interested in the question, copies were also communicated to the Governments through His Majesty's diplomatic representatives in those countries. The communication of these documents did not call for any reply.
  Mr. Mander: Is the United States of America one of the countries to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in the last part of his reply?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. They were informed.
  Colonel Nathan: Have any replies been received?
  Mr. Eden: The communications did not call for a reply. They were sent, as an act of courtesy, to the countries most interested in order to let them know the position before they read it in the newspapers.
  Colonel Nathanasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any observations on the Report of the Royal Commission on Palestine have been received from the High Commissioner of Palestine; and, if so, what is the purport of such observations, and whether they were submitted at the invitation of the Colonial Office or on the initiative of the High Commissioner?
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) on 19th July.

  CHINA.

    EXTRA-TERRITORIALITY.
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement on the present situation and/or the recent changes that have taken place in China; and what is the present position in relation to extra-territoriality rights to His Majesty's Government and the Chinese Government?
    Mr. Eden: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made in the

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    Debate in this House on Monday last and to the reply which I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. The position with regard to extra-territoriality remains unchanged.
    Mr. Day: Do the Government propose to continue the negotiations with regard to extraterritoriality?
    Mr. Eden: There are none now proceeding.

    MORTGAGED PROPERTY (BRITISH SUBJECT'S LOSS).
    Mr. Moreinǵasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received from His Majesty's Ambassador in China the expected report on the recent case in which a British subject, as a result of successive proceedings in the Chinese courts, suffered a loss of $30,000 on the capital sum of $75,000 advanced on mortgage to a Chinese merchant?
    Mr. Eden: The report has been despatched but has not yet reached me.

    INSURANCE LAW.
    Mr. Moreinǵasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received the comments of His Majesty's Ambassador in China on the present state of the law relating to insurance in China?
    Mr. Eden: The Ambassador's comments on part of the legislation have been received and the matter is at present under consideration.

    CZECHOSLOVAKIA.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any representations from the Czechoslovakian authorities concerning the misleading Hungarian propaganda circulating in this country against Czechoslovakia; and whether he will make a statement respecting the position of minorities in that country?
    Mr. Eden: The answer to the first part of the question is No, Sir. As regards the second part of the question, I would remind the hon. Member that the position of minorities in Czechoslovakia is governed by the Minorities Treaty signed by Czechoslovakia in 1919.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many hon. Members have
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    received, obviously from a Hungarian source, propaganda designed to disintegrate Czechoslovakia, and in view of that, will he take any steps that are possible to inform the Hungarian authorities responsible for this propaganda that their action is mischievous in the extreme and does no credit to the Hungarian people?
    Mr. Eden: No, Sir. I did not know about that, but I have every confidence in the judgment of hon. Members who receive the propaganda.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will the right hon. Gentleman himself take steps to consider the propaganda that the rest of us receive?

    CHINA AND JAPAN.
    Captain Pluggeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the commitments, if any, in which His Majesty's Government are involved in the North China trouble by reason of our participation in the Nine-Power Treaty, the Kellogg Pact, and the League Covenant?
    Mr. Eden: I assume that my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind the situation existing at the moment. Unless the provision for consultation contained in Article 7 of the Nine-Power Treaty is classed as a commitment, neither that Treaty nor the Kellogg Pact entails any commitment of His Majesty's Government in the present dispute. Nor has any arisen under the Covenant of the League.
    Captain Pluggeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the existing circumstances in North China, he will reconsider the advisability of holding Anglo-Japanese conversations?
    Mr. Eden: So long as the present situation in North China persists, it would not seem opportune to open the conversations to which His Majesty's Government were looking forward, and I have been obliged to inform the Japanese Government that that is the view of His Majesty's Government.
    Captain Plugge: Does not my right hon. Friend consider that the movement of troops on a large scale by a foreign Power in a friendly neighbouring country constitutes an act of military aggression which we ought not to countenance?
    Mr. Eden: That is rather another question. I was asked about conversations, and I answered that question.
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the Chinese Government's statement that Japanese action in North China constitutes a clear violation of China's sovereignty and is contrary to the Paris Peace Pact and the Covenant of the League of Nations, he will consider the advisability of exercising our friendly right, under Article 11 of the Covenant, to bring the matter to the attention of the Council of the League?
    Mr. Eden: As I have already explained to the House, His Majesty's Government are in constant consultation with other Governments, whether members of the League or not, on the present situation in the Far East. Such consultation is now taking place daily through the diplomatic channel. As at present advised, I do not consider that the action suggested by the hon. Member would be likely to improve the existing situation.
    Mr. Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the possibility of using the machinery of the League, particularly under Article 17 in regard to nonmembers, if the situation grows more menacing?
    Mr. Gallacher: Would the Foreign Secretary not advise the Chinese people to unite and drive out the Japanese?
    Mr. Arthur Henderson(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the artillery bombardment of Wangping in North China by Japanese forces, and as to the present position generally in North China?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Viscount Cranborne): According to my information, Wangping was shelled yesterday after two hours' warning. This was represented as being a reprisal for firing from the Chinese side on the previous evening, in which a Japanese officer was wounded, and for firing yesterday and the day before outside Peking.
    Mr. Henderson: In view of the gravity of the dispute between Japan and China, may I ask the Under-Secretary whether the Council of the League intend to take
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    the action which is made obligatory under Article XVII of the Covenant to deal with this matter?
    Viscount Cranborne: I think that that supplementary question is really covered by the reply which my right hon. Friend has already given. He said that His Majesty's Government were in constant consultation with the Powers concerned, both inside and outside the League, and he thought that that was the most useful method of approach to a settlement of the problem at the present time.
    Mr. Henderson: The previous question referred to Article XI, but I am referring to Article XVII, under which action is made obligatory on the Council?
    Viscount Cranborne: I think it covers the whole situation. The main object of all of us in this House is to get a peaceful settlement.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Has any request or recommendation been received from the Chinese Government concerning the evacuation of British nationals from Peking?
    Viscount Cranborne: That is rather a different question; perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will put it down.

    GERMANY (BRITISH AMBASSADOR'S SPEECHES).
    Miss Wilkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the strongly pro-Nazi attitude and speeches of His Majesty's Ambassador at Berlin, any communications have passed between His Majesty's Government and the Governments of other European States on the subject?
    Mr. Eden: I cannot accept the assumption that the attitude of His Majesty's Ambassador at Berlin has been biased by personal sentiment in favour of a foreign political party; and no representations to this effect have been received from any foreign Government, nor would they be regarded as acceptable.
    Miss Wilkinson: In view of the somewhat optimistic statement of the right hon. Gentleman, may I ask him whether he is aware that influential and representative Central European Legations in Berlin are stating precisely the opposite of what he has now said to the House?
    Mr. Eden: I do not know to what the hon. Lady refers. I can only state the position of His Majesty's Government in the matter, and that I have done as clearly as I could.
    Captain Cazalet: Is it not the duty of His Majesty's representatives in all countries to establish and maintain the most friendly relations possible with the countries to which they are accredited?
    Mr. Gallacher: Does that apply to the Ambassador in Moscow?
    Mr. Eden: I am glad to know that our representative in Moscow is on excellent terms with the Soviet Government.

    SPANISH REFUGEE CHILDREN.
    Commander Bowerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information about the present conditions of children remaining in Bilbao; and whether he is satisfied that the conditions are now sufficiently stabilised in that city to enable the Basque children in this country to return.
    Mr. Eden: His Majesty's Government are in touch with the National Joint Committee for Spanish refugees, to whom such information as may be received from time to time regarding present conditions at Bilbao will be communicated, and whom His Majesty's Government propose to invite to discuss the position at an early date.
    Commander Bower: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the younger of these unfortunate children are already beginning to forget their own parents; and, further, does he think that the political prejudices of the members of the committee to which he refers—[Interruption].

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (REFORM).
    Mr. V. Adamsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any, and, if so, what reforms of the League of Nations are going to be proposed by His Majesty's Government at the forthcoming meeting of the Assembly at Geneva.
    Mr. Eden: The question of League reform has been referred by the Assembly to the Committee on the Application of the Principles of the Covenant. The observations on this question, which on
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    behalf of His Majesty's Government, I made to the Assembly last year have been referred to this Committee, together with the observations of other governments. The Committee will be meeting before the forthcoming Assembly, and will no doubt inform the latter of the position of its work.
    Mr. Adams: What is the attitude of His Majesty's Govermnent towards the unanimity rule?
    Mr. Eden: Is the hon. Member referring to Article 11?
    Mr. Adams: Yes.
    Mr. Eden: I think that is covered by the statement already made, and the view expressed there is still held.
    Mr. Mander: Is not an attitude by the Government the most urgent requirement at the moment?

  ROYAL NAVY.

    DOCKYARD ORGANISATION.
    Captain Pluǵǵeasked the First Lord of the Admiralty when the organisation of the Royal Dockyards in this country and the conditions of service therein were last fully reviewed; and whether he will now consider arranging for a fresh inquiry to be made into this matter with a view to alleviating the various outstanding grievances with regard to such service and to ensuring that they are organised in such a way as to be able to provide full and adequate service in any emergency?
    Mr. Cooper: The general organisation of the Royal Dockyards was under independent review as recently as 1926, and the conditions of employment therein may be said to be constantly under review, principally through the Admiralty Industrial Council and the Shipbuilding Trade Joint Council for Government Departments which hold regular meetings for the purpose of discussing service conditions and wages questions. A further general inquiry at the present time is not considered necessary.

    ARTIFICER APPRENTICES.
    Mr. Ralph Beaumontasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has yet come to any decision with regard to the possibility of giving assistance towards the extra travelling expenses which will be incurred by artificer apprentices

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    who are being transferred from the mechanical training establishment at Chatham to His Majesty's ship "Caledonia" at Rosyth and whose homes are in the south of England; and whether he proposes to make any concessions with regard to leave in order to compensate these boys for the loss of week-end leave and other facilities for seeing their relatives which they have enjoyed while at Chatham?
    Mr. Cooper: I am not yet in a position to say whether it will be possible to grant any assistance towards the travelling expenses of artificer apprentices who entered the mechanical training establishment at Chatham in August, 1936, and are now being transferred to Rosyth. Apprentices at Rosyth are granted seven weeks' leave in each year, and it is not possible to give any additional leave to those who have begun their training at Chatham.
    Sir Robert Younǵasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty is making special arrangements for the enrolment of apprentices in the engineering and cognate trades to join the Royal Navy as apprentice artificers; and what is the qualifying age for such enlistment, the period for which they will join, and the educational qualifications which will be expected of them?
    Mr. Cooper: Arrangements are being made for the entry of apprentices who have received not less than 2½ years' apprentice training and are over the age of 18. These artificer apprentices will engage for 12 years' service. The educational qualification will be the same as for those who enter the Navy as artificers.
    Mr. Kirkwood: That is not a reply to the question which I put.
    Mr. Speaker: We are on another question now.
    Mr. Kirkwood: On a point of Order. I want to draw attention to the fact that the reason the Government cannot get recruits for the Army and Navy is because the men are under-paid.
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order.

    SINGAPORE (ALLOWANCES).
    Sir R. Younǵasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what are the monetary allowances granted to ordinary and able-
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    bodied seamen and to engine-room artificers to meet the extra expenses incurred by those ratings stationed at Seletar Base, near Singapore; and whether he can say what remuneration is paid to natives signed on in the ships as seamen and stokers?
    Mr. Cooper: Naval ratings stationed at Seletar Base are granted a colonial allowance of 20 cents a day. It is only recently that native ratings have been entered at Singapore, and I have no certain information of the rate of pay which they are receiving.
    Sir R. Young: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that £160 a year for a warrant officer, which is approximately £3 a week makes an allowance of three shillings a week fair to seamen and artificers to cover the extra expense incurred by them?
    Mr. Cooper: Those are not fairly comparable figures?
    Mr. Kirkwood: Is it not the case that engineers on merchantmen have four times the wages of engineers in the British Navy at Singapore?

    SHEERNESS DOCKYARD (FRESH ENTRANTS, VACCINATION).
    Mr. Viantasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that within the past 12 months a large number of building trade operatives have been taken into employment in the Sheerness Dockyard; and will he state the reasons why about six weeks ago a number of them were placed on the hired list and compelled to be re-vaccinated, an operation which caused some of them a great deal of suffering and anxiety, in view of the fact that a number of them were discharged within a period of five weeks?
    Mr. Cooper: According to the Home Dockyard Regulations, all fresh entrants into the dockyard are to be re-vaccinated or are to produce evidence that they have been successfully vaccinated or re-vaccinated within the past five years. This rule does not apply to men entered for casual or temporary service. The men concerned were transferred to the hired list after a period of casual employment, in the expectation that continuous employment would be found for them and were accordingly vaccinated. Unfortunately, owng to circumstances which could not be foreseen at the time, this

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    expectation was not fulfilled, and 37 men on the hired list have recently been discharged. Of these, eight have subsequently found employment in other departments of Sheerness Dockyard.
    Mr. Viant: Am I to assume from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that the Department are so lacking in business ability as to be unable to judge their requirements five weeks ahead?
    Mr. Cooper: The arrangements made afterwards made it impossible to take on these men for another period.
    Mr. Leach: What is successful vaccination? Does it mean that the patient did not die?

    SUBMARINE EXERCISES, PORTLAND BILL.
    Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give the facts with respect to an alleged incident concerning a German submarine in British waters.
    Mr. Cooper: On Monday last a German submarine was on the surface outside territorial waters in the vicinity of Portland Bill, where she had a perfect right to be. A British destroyer and submarine were carrying out exercises in the same locality, and a depth charge was fired which brought the British submarine to the surface, as intended. This was an ordinary naval exercise, and had no connection whatever with the presence of the German submarine.
    Viscountess Astor: Another war gone west.

  SCOTLAND.

    TORPEDO FACTORY, GREENOCK (WAGE DEDUCTIONS).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the nature of the central organisation he has in view in regard to deductions for hospital purposes from the wages of unestablished workers of the Royal Naval Torpedo Factory in Greenock; and whether he will take steps to ensure that such deductions will be earmarked for hospital purposes from which such workers will benefit, particularly in and around Greenock?
    Mr. Cooper: I regret that I am unable to add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on Monday, concerning the general scheme of deductions
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    for hospital purposes which is at present under consideration. The desirability of ensuring that deductions from the pay of employés at the Royal Naval Torpedo Factory are earmarked for hospitals which are of benefit to the staff of the factory, will be borne in mind.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that this hospital is losing pounds and pounds every week that it requires this delay?

    COLONIAL LABOUR COMMITTEE.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give consideration to the setting up of a committee to advise him on questions of industrial legislation and labour welfare in the Colonies, such committee to function in his office in a somewhat similar way to the other important advisory committees already operating usefully?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: There is already in existence in the Colonial Office an official Standing Committee known as the Colonial Labour Committee, which was set up in 1931, and whose function is to consider and advise upon labour questions affecting the Colonies. The committee has functioned ever since on the same lines, and I am satisfied that it provides a machinery fully adequate for the purpose for which it was created.

  TRINIDAD.

    DISTURBANCES (COMMISSION OF INQUIRY).
    Mr. Lunnasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the names of the Commission to inquire into the recent labour dispute in Trinidad and the terms of reference?
    Mr. Petherickasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is able to give the House any information concerning the constitution of the Commission of Inquiry, promised by the Governor of Trinidad, and the names of the persons who will serve on the Commission; and when it is expected they will begin their inquiry?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have invited certain gentlemen to serve on this Commission, but I am not yet in a position to give the names of the members of the

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    Commission. It will be composed of a chairman, two members, and a secretary from this country, and two members from Trinidad. It will begin its inquiry as early as is possible. Its terms of reference will be:
    "To inquire into and report upon the origin and character of the recent disturbances in the Colony of Trinidad and Tobago and all matters relating thereto, to consider the adequacy of the steps taken to deal with those disturbances, and to make recommendations."
    Mr. Lunn: Will the report of this Commission be made known to Members of this House?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Undoubtedly. The Commission is being paid for by the Legislature of Trinidad. The report will be published, and I will see that copies are available here.
    Major Owen: In view of the great strategic importance of this island and of the fact that it is practically the only source of supply, within British Dominions, of oil in case of emergency, will the right hon. Gentleman consider making more adequate provision for the protection of law and order within the island, and also for the establishment of a naval base there?
    Mr. Riley: Will there be a representative of the Trinidad workers on the Commission of Inquiry?
    Mr. Petherick: Will my right hon. Friend say what are the names of the two members from Trinidad on the Commission?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I can answer those two questions together. The answer to the hon. Member opposite is "No."
    Mr. Riley: Why not?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Simply because this is to be an entirely impartial inquiry. Neither the employers nor the strikers should be on the Commission, but should give their evidence before it. I may say that the two Trinidad members already selected are Judge Brown and a Mr. Jones, an officer of the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture in Trinidad, who has no connection with the riots. With regard to the representatives from this country, there will be a chairman, a gentleman connected with the trade union movement, and an ex-Colonial
    2192
    civil servant with no previous connection with Trinidad. It is essential that this should be an entirely outside inquiry, to which all sides can make their representations.
    Mr. Lunn: If I put down a further question a week hence, will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give a full list of the Commissioners?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I hope so. As I say, I have invited certain gentlemen and have received their replies, but there is great difficulty in adjusting the dates when it will be convenient for them to go to Trinidad.
    Mr. A. Reedasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the information withheld during the censorship of news from Trinidad during the recent labour disturbances there can now be released?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have learned from the Governor that the censorship of news was removed on 13th July. I presume, therefore, that any information which may have been withheld has now been released.
    Mr. Reedasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that Corporal King, reported to have been killed during the rioting, was cornered by a number of native strikers after he had broken a limb in jumping from a window of a house; that the strikers then poured petrol on him and, having paused first to empty his pockets, set him alight causing him to be burnt to death; and whether any success has attended the efforts which presumably have been made to bring to justice the perpetrators of this murder?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The Governor reports that in the darkness of the evening of 19th June Corporal King of the Trinidad Police was separated from a small body of police and was chased by a crowd of men and women who assaulted him with sticks and stones. He was caught and thrown into a back yard, where he was stoned. Paraffin was poured over him and was lighted. It is not yet known whether he died before or after burning. I understand that there is no evidence that he jumped from a window or broke a limb. It is believed that some 15 dollars were stolen from his person by the crowd. In connection with

    2193
    this revolting murder seven men and five women were being charged before a magistrate on 19th July. I have asked for an early report of the result of these proceedings.
    Major Owen: In view of this outrage, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there should be more adequate provision for the safeguarding of lives and for the maintenance of law and order in that island?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It is obvious that the incidents that have taken place in the recent disturbances, which are to be inquired into by a commission, call for a serious investigation as to the police organisation. The incident I have just related is such a grave example of what may happen that we cannot afford to have such incidents happen again.

    OLD AGE PENSIONS.
    Mr. Holdsworthasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the suggested old age pension scheme has been brought into operation in the island of Trinidad; and whether the rights of dividing societies will be safeguarded on the introduction of the scheme and the right to distribute bonus will remain uninterfered with?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have no information on the subject; but I will communicate with the Governor in the matter.
    Mr. Holdsworth: Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries and find out something about the matters mentioned in the question?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have said I will.

    ADEN PROTECTORATE (SLAVES).
    Mr. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is yet in a position to say how far the effort being made by the administration of the Aden Protectorate, designed to secure the co-operation of the sultans, sheikhs, and chiefs in the suppression of the importation of slaves, has succeeded?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Agreements designed to prevent the introduction of slaves into their territories have now been subscribed to by all the leading chiefs in the Protectorate. Other chiefs have been invited to follow this example. The Sultan of Shihr
    2194
    and Mukalla and the Kathiri Sultan have agreed to the abolition of the sale of slaves at fairs and the granting of freedom to any slave upon his demanding it. The Sultan of Lahej has stated that the sale of slaves at markets in his territory has never been the custom and has given an assurance that such transactions will never take place.

  NIGERIA.

    IJEBU PROVINCE.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has arrived at a decision on the question of the suggested partition of the Ijebu Province, Nigeria?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have not taken any decision on the matter to which the hon. Member refers, as the Governor has not yet submitted it for my consideration.
    Mr. Mathers: In view of the time that has been taken over this matter, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to refrain from coming to any decision during the Recess?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It entirely depends on the nature of the proposal and the recommendation I receive from Nigeria.

    MOTOR-LICENCE FEES.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to announce a reduction of motor-licence fees in consideration of the undertaking given by the Nigerian Motor Transport Union; and whether he has decided to afford the union representation on the Transport Advisory Board?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: In reply to representations made to the Governor of Nigeria, the Nigerian Motor Transport Union has been informed that, in the case of commercial road vehicles plying between Ijebu and Abeokuta provinces, the increased licence fee would be removed, but not in other cases. A reduction would, however, be made in the increased cost at present incurred in taking out the double licence quarterly instead of for a full year. As the result of further representations the Governor has directed that investigations should be made into the application of the double licence fees as between lorries competing with the Government railway and railway feeder lorries. These investigations are reported

    2195
    to be proceeding. As regards the Transport Advisory Board, it was explained to the Union that the constitution of a Standing Area Committee of the Board provided for the inclusion of a member of the Union.
    Mr. Mathers: In view of the burden that this extra licence fee has placed upon the Transport Union, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange to wipe out the competition with the railway by getting the motor Transport Union to agree to higher rates on the road in order to make them less competitive with the railways, and will he in these circumstances agree to the reduction of the licence fees?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: That is a rather complicated supplementary question, and I would like to see it on the Paper. It is a clear case of competition between Government lorries and privately-owned lorries, and it is therefore a complex question.

    LAND TENURE.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the contemplated partitioning of the lands of Abeokuta into individual ownership is in the interest of and has been considered by the native population; whether such partitioning is to be applied to Nigeria in general; whether an officer is being secured from India to explain the scheme; and whether he is aware of the hardship that this partitioning will impose on the natives, particularly in the matter of migratory farming?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The desirability of devising a system of land registration for the Yoruba provinces in Southern Nigeria where education and the development of permanent crops have made great advances in recent years to enable the inhabitants to acquire greater security, to deal more freely in land, and to acquire some more definite form of title, has been under consideration for some time. In 1934 certain principles were discussed by the then Governor with the Alake of Abeokuta and were accepted by the Alake and his Council. No definite scheme has yet been formulated, and I have asked the Secretary of State for India to ascertain whether the services of an officer from India could be made available to examine the existing systems of land tenure in South Western Nigeria and to advise whether some system of registration such
    2196
    as obtains in India could be adapted to suit local requirements. The application of such a system to Northern Nigeria is not at present contemplated. As regards the hon. Member's concluding inquiry, I can assure him that it is in the interests of the African population that this matter has been taken up.
    Mr. Sorensen: Have the natives been consulted respecting the possible partition, and does the reply mean that the system of private ownership is likely to supplant the present system of communal ownership?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No question of partition arises here. Where there is a development of the cocoa crop, there is a demand by native cultivators for a more permanent form of tenure as a result of their efforts and improvements, and it is to meet that demand that the inquiry is taking place.
    Mr. Lunn: Is the policy to substitute individual ownership of land in Nigeria for the public ownership which is the universal rule?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No, it is not the universal rule. There is an immense variety of tenures in West Africa. Our experience is that where annual crops are grown, the purely tribal control of occupancy rights obtain, but where you get permanent crops, the development of education, and people demanding to be able to mortgage their incomes and to raise capital for the improvement of their land, some more advanced form of tenure is demanded.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does this apply to white labour?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No, Sir.

    ZANZIBAR (CLOVE INDUSTRY).
    Mr. Palingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the hartal recently declared in Zanzibar and the policy of passive resistance adopted by the Indian community, as a protest against the Clove Bill; and whether he proposes to take any steps to deal with their grievances?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: A one-day hartal was declared, but I understand that it was not entirely effective. As regards the second part of the question, I would

    2197
    refer the hon. Member to my answer to him of 24th June for an explanation of the steps which had then been taken to meet Indian opposition to the new legislation. Since then a number of further concessions have been made in consultation with representatives of the Government of India; and I have reason to believe that that Government is not dissatisfied with the position. The Cloves Decree was passed in the Zanzibar Council on 15th July and the Acting Resident promised, in the course of the debate, that sympathetic consideration would be given where the reform pressed hardly on individuals or classes. I do not consider that the Indian community in Zanzibar now have any real grounds for complaint, and I do not think that any further changes in a scheme designed to protect native producers is needed.
    Mr. Paling: Are the concessions such as to convince the Indians in India that the embargo which has already been discussed will not now become necessary?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I gather that is not so. We regard it as a paramount duty to protect native interests where those conflict with those of an immigrant race, and I am satisfied that we must pursue this policy vigorously to the end.

    SEA FISH (DYEING AND COLOUR ING PROHIBITION) BILL.
    Mr. Macquistenasked the Prime Minister whether the Government are prepared to give time for the passing of the Sea Fish (Dyeing and Colouring Prohibition) Bill?
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): In view of the state of Parliamentary business, I fear I can hold out no hope of special facilities being given for this Bill.
    Mr. Macquisten: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no opposition to the Bill in the House except from one or two Members on the benches behind him, and that it could be put through in five minutes? Meantime, people are being fed with very unsavoury fish.
    Mr. Law: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is very considerable opposition from various sections of the fishing industry?
    Viscountess Astor: Would not more of the population eat these kippers if they were properly prepared?

    PARLIAMENT (EMERGENCY SUMMONS).
    Miss Rathboneasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider recommending that, in view of the danger of the international situation, Parliament should be kept in session throughout the summer or, at least, recalled in September, arrangements being made for Ministers and others to be relieved from their parliamentary duties in rotation?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir, but the Motion for the Summer Adjournment will contain the usual provision to enable the House to be called together at an earlier date during the Recess if the public interest so requires.
    Mr. H. G. Williams: Will it not be advantageous to have a cessation of the number of injudicious questions on international subjects?
    Miss Rathbone: Would it not suit the Government supporters still better if Parliament adjourned indefinitely?
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: May I ask whether there is any reason why the hon. Lady should not take her seat daily in the Chamber while the House is not in Session?

  DEFENCE.

    MUNITION FACTORIES.
    Mr. Kellyasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence the number of factories now being erected and for which he has undertaken financial responsibility; and whether they have reached a stage of progress satisfactory to his Department?
    The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence (Sir Thomas Inskip): I have undertaken no financial responsibility for any factories under the Rearmament Programme, this being a matter for the Service Ministers. The number of factories in course of erection at Government expense is 18. The progress being made on them is regarded as generally satisfactory.
    Mr. Kelly: Have any complaints been lodged with the Department as to the

    2199
    position with regard to these factories, some of which are a long way behind what is expected of them?
    Sir T. Inskip: No, I cannot accept the latter statement. No complaint has reached me.
    Mr. Kellyasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence the number of men employed on the building and construction of factories for the munition work for his Department on the first week in June, 1937, and the first week in July, 1937?
    Sir T. Inskip: I am informed that the number of men employed on the building and construction of factories being erected at Government expense for munition work during the first week in June was 3,970, and during the first week in July was 4,234.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Does that include the factories built by private manufacturers with Government guarantee against loss?
    Sir T. Inskip: These are factories which are being erected at Government expense.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Is not the Minister aware that the erection of these factories is being rushed at an unprecedented pace, to the detriment of house-building, particularly in Scotland?
    Sir T. Inskip: I have no information to that effect.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Well, you are getting it now.
    Mr. Kellyasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether the plans have been completed for the factories required by his Department; and, if not, will he say when it is expected to complete the plans?
    Sir T. Inskip: The position is that factory plans are substantially completed on the basis of present requirements.
    Mr. Kelly: Will the right hon. Gentleman guarantee that each of the contractors who is engaged upon the erection of these factories will be supplied with the plans within six months of starting work?
    Sir T. Inskip: I am not sure what circumstances the hon. Member has in mind. I have no reason to suppose that there has been any delay in the preparation of plans.
    Mr. Kelly: If the right hon. Gentleman's attention is called to one case where they have been engaged on the work for six months and have not yet received the plans, will he deal with the matter?
    Sir T. Inskip: I shall be pleased to have any help which the hon. Member can give me in hastening the work.

    AEROPLANES.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether he can state that he was satisfied with the monthly output of aeroplanes in Great Britain for the month of June, 1937?
    Sir T. Inskip: In the great majority of cases I am satisfied with the output.

    TERRITORIAL CAMPS FIRMS' EMPLOYÉS).
    Mr. Craven-Ellis(by Private Notice) asked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether arrangements have been made with firms engaged on Government contracts in connection with the rearmament programme, that will enable their employés who are members of the Territorial Army to attend camp?
    Sir T. Inskip: It is the considered opinion of His Majesty's Government that firms, including those engaged on rearmament work, should afford every opportunity to their employés not only to join the Auxiliary Forces which are at present below their proper strengths, but also to enable them to attend camp, which is an essential part of their training. The Government regard the maintenance of the Forces at their maximum strengths as the first condition of national security.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that Messrs. Cammell Laird—
    Hon. Members: You are reading it.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member may not read a supplementary question.
    Miss Wilkinson: On a point of Order. In view of the fact that you have repeatedly ruled that no question may be put by private notice unless it is so urgent that it cannot wait to be put upon the Paper, may I ask why a question dealing with territorial camps some considerable time ahead should be granted the right of private notice?
    Sir T. Inskip: Further to that point of Order. May I call your attention to the fact that these camps will be held in the very near future, and that it is desirable that everybody should know the position of His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Speaker: It must remain for me to decide whether a question may be put by private notice. In this case my attention was called to the fact that these camps will be held very shortly, and that it was necessary that employers and others should know their position in regard to them as soon as possible.
    Miss Wilkinson: Are we to assume from that reply that the supplementary question was put by arrangement with the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence?
    Mr. Speaker: It was because my attention was drawn to it that I stopped the supplementary question and did not allow it to be asked.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that Messrs. Cammell Laird—
    Mr. Speaker: A supplementary question must be spontaneous.

    BRITISH SOMALILAND (ROAD WORKS).
    Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, under the agreement recently concluded with the Italian Government, Italian nationals are allowed to engage in the construction and repair of roads in British Somaliland; and, if so, what is the purpose of this arrangement?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No, Sir. Such road works as are necessary in British Somaliland to facilitate the passage of transit traffic will be carried out by the Government of the Protectorate with local labour. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

    KENYA (HUT BURNING).
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that on 27th February a settler owning a farm at Karamba-ini, in the Limuru district near Tigoni in Kenya, burnt three huts and one grain store with all their contents, including 1,250 shillings
    2202
    in cash, the property of a Kikuyu named Karanja wa Wainaina; and what steps the Government of Kenya has taken in this matter?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have no information on this subject, but I will make inquiry of the Governor, if the hon. Member can give me the material in his possession.

    COLONIAL POLICE SERVICE.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why true European descent is now insisted upon for police probationers in the Crown Colonies, Protectorates and Mandated Territories, other than Ceylon; why such a rule does not apply to Ceylon; and whether he has considered the effect it will have in arousing discontent in territories such as Jamaica and Malaya where there is a loyal and highly educated coloured population?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The condition to which the hon. Member refers applies only to candidates who are recruited for the Colonial Police Service through the selection machinery in this country. Police appointments, like other Civil Service appointments, in all Dependencies are open to suitable candidates drawn from the local population.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    CONTRACTS.
    Mr. McEnteeasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the inquiries into the alleged violation of the Fair Wages Clause by Messrs. F. W. Rigby and Company have been completed; and, if so, with what result?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead): The inquiries are not complete, but considerable progress has been made, and I am hopeful of an early determination of the few outstanding points.

    PARACHUTES.
    Mr. Aclandasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied with the regulations whereby pilots of Royal Air Force machines wear parachutes strapped to their backs, but the gunners, telegraphists, and observers

    2203
    wear the harness only and, in case of emergency, must first attach the parachute to the harness; whether lives have been lost which might have been saved if gunners and telegraphists and observers had been as well equipped as the pilots; and whether he will consider any alteration in the regulations?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: As regards the first part of the question, paragraph 781 of King's Regulations and Air Council Instructions recognises the necessity of permitting the packs of parachutes to be temporarily detached from the harness so as to allow of the efficient execution of certain duties. As regards the second part, I am advised that during the past 12 months the loss of one life might possibly have been avoided if the parachute pack had not been detached for this authorised purpose. As regards the last part, the regulations are dictated by practical service requirements, and I do not consider that they should be altered.

  AVIATION.

    NIGHT-FLYING, LONDON.
    Mr. Aclandasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has been able to identify the aeroplanes that flew low over Central London at about 10.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 13th July, and at about 1.30 a.m. on Thursday, 15th July; whether consideration has been given to the possible position that the regulations as to safety are ineffective to prevent low flying over London by reason of the fact that a low-flying pilot would argue that, in case of difficulty, he would land on the Thames; and whether, in view of the fact that the publicity given to this matter has not prevented the practice of night-flying over London, he will reconsider his decision as to the making and enforcing of new regulations?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: As regard the first part of the question, the aeroplane that was over London in the evening of 13th July was a Royal Air Force machine on a duly authorised flight, and the one which was over London on the 15th is believed to have been a civil machine which had been participating in defence exercises in the East Kent area. As regards the second part, my Noble Friend has under consideration the issue of new regulations prescribing, in the interests of
    2204
    safety, minimum heights for flights over Central London. As regards the third part, in view of the fact that a notice to airmen requesting pilots to refrain as far as possible from flying over towns late at night or early in the morning was only issued on 15th July, I do not think that any reconsideration of this decision is called for at the moment.
    Mr. Crossley: Will the new regulations contain a prohibition of advertisement flying?
    Hon. Members: Why?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: The new regulations will deal with safety considerations.

    AIRCRAFT.
    Mr. Dayasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the number of civil aircraft registered in Great Britain and Northern Ireland that have been granted certificates of airworthiness and may be regarded as under British control or available for use in emergencies?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: Approximately 1,250.
    Mr. Day: In addition to that number, are there any aeroplanes at present under examination and awaiting their certificates?
    Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead: Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question down.

  TRANSPORT.

    RAILWAY ELECTRIFICATION, SCOTLAND.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Minister of Transport whether, following the success of railway electrification in the South of England, he proposes to take any steps to encourage its further extension to railway services in the more populous parts of Scotland in the near future?
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Burgin): The responsibility for initiating railway electrification schemes rests with the railway companies.
    Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: In view of the numerous accidents to animals caused by the live rail on the Southern railway, will the right hon. Gentleman see that some other method of electrification is adopted here?

    FOOD TRANSPORT (WAR EMERGENCY).
    Mr. Whiteasked the Minister of Transport whether any steps have been taken to prepare lists of the available types of road transport and to organise local committees to deal with them in case, in the event of war or national emergency, there should be need to mobilise the road transport system of the country?
    Mr. Burgin: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 14th July to the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland), of which I am sending him a copy.

    ROAD ACCIDENTS (MARYHILL, GLASGOW).
    Mr. J. J. Davidsonasked the Minister of Transport whether he has made further inquiries with regard to the increase of road fatalities in the Maryhill Division of Glasgow; and whether he has any statement to make?
    Mr. Burgin: I have made detailed inquiries into the road accidents in the Maryhill Division of Glasgow. I do not find there has been an increase of accidents, as the hon. Member suggests; on the contrary, the number for the first six months of the year shows a welcome diminution as compared with the three previous years. Of the five fatal accidents to which I referred in my reply to the hon. Member on 14th July, four occurred on Maryhill Road and were due to children running across the road or running from behind vehicles. The question of safety measures on this road is being actively pursued; traffic islands, halt signs, and pedestrian crossings have been or are being provided. From his knowledge of the road, the hon. Member will realise that the erection of continuous guard rails would present serious practical difficulties. Sustained propaganda among parents and children alike probably offers the best prospect of reducing accidents here, but I am keeping the whole matter under my personal observation.
    Mr. Davidson: Does the Minister's reply indicate that his letter to me stating that there had unfortunately been an increase only last week was wrong, and is he aware that in 1934 there were only five killed in the whole of the area and that his figures show five killed for six months of 1937?
    Mr. Burgin: It is a mistake to imagine that if five fatal accidents have occurred in six months there will be 10 fatal accidents in 12 months. I think the hon. Member is drawing a wrong conclusion from certain admitted statistics.
    Mr. Davidson: Is the Minister not aware that in 1934 five were killed; in 1935 seven were killed; and in 1936 10 were killed in this area, and is not my assumption of an increase not based upon the figures of the Ministry of Transport?
    Mr. Burgin: In 1934 the total accidents were 414, and in 1937, for the first six months, they numbered 154.
    Mr. Davidson: My question referred to fatal accidents.

    RAILWAY WAGONS (CENSUS).
    Mr. Dayasked the Minister of Transport particulars and date of the latest census that has been taken of privately-owned railway wagons running on the various railways of Great Britain; and what plan the Government are considering whereby the railway companies can acquire these trucks and eliminate congestion caused by the present system?
    Mr. Burgin: The last census of privately-owned wagons registered to run on the lines of the railway companies in Great Britain was taken at 31st January, 1928, and the results were published in Appendix XV of the first report of the Standing Committee on Mineral Transport. A new census is being taken next week. The Government have not under consideration any plan for facilitating the acquisition of privately-owned wagons by the railway companies.
    Mr. Day: Have the Government any idea how they can endeavour to remove this waste?

    OMNIBUSES (ROUTE INDICATORS).
    Mr. Leonardasked the Minister of Transport the number of omnibus companies still using coloured lamps as route indicators?
    Mr. Burgin: I regret that the information is not available, but if the hon. Member has any particular case in mind I shall be glad to make inquiries.

    TRAFFIC CONGESTION, LONDON.
    Mr. Frankelasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that a large number of leading business and

    2207
    transport employers in London are willing to join in a conference to consider staggering of business hours with a view to relieving traffic congestion; and whether, in view of his publicly expressed willingness to consider such a conference, he can inform the House what progress in this direction has been made?
    Mr. Burgin: I have had some discussion on this subject with the London Passenger Transport Board, but I have not yet been approached by any other business or transport employers. I shall be glad to discuss the subject with any group of employers interested. There is much preliminary work to be carried out before any general conference would be useful.
    Mr. Frankel: In view of that reply, will the Minister take advantage of the Recess to call such a conference, if the request is made by employers and employés?
    Mr. Burgin: The whole matter is having very active consideration, but I think the experience of every hon. Member will be that if a conference is to serve any useful purpose there must be preliminary work before the conference meets and no difficulty arise when the conference does meet.
    Mr. Frankel: I merely wished to ask the Minister whether he would take advantage of the Recess period in order to pursue the calling of such a conference.

    TRUNK ROADS (AERIAL SURVEY).
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement on his first aerial survey of the roads?
    Mr. Burgin: Yes, Sir. I have recently surveyed from the air the Great North Road as far north as Alnwick, also the trunk roads from Newcastle to Carlisle and thence via Warrington and Coventry to London—a distance of 650 miles. I was able to gain a general conception of the road system more quickly and more conveniently than would otherwise have been possible, and to discuss with the Chief Engineer who accompanied me the obvious need for various improvements which are contemplated on certain sections of these routes.
    Mr. Lyons: Will attention be given to me worst parts of the Great North Road as soon as possible?
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Is this a new way of dodging local authorities?

    ELECTRICITY SUPPLY, LINLITHGOW.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the delay to housing schemes in the county of Linlithgow caused by the dilatoriness of the Scottish Central Electric Power Company and the Scottish Midlands Electricity Supply Company, Limited, in installing electric current in such schemes; and whether he will take steps to cause them to carry out their duty in this respect without further delay?
    Mr. Burgin: I cannot add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to a question which the hon. Member asked yesterday.
    Mr. Mathers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the delay on the part of this company is chronic, and that tenants in completed houses are sitting in those houses using oil lamps because electricity is not available, and does not the supply of electricity fall within his province?
    Mr. Burgin: Yes, Sir, electricity does fall within my province, but as the Secretary of State for Scotland said yesterday, I am inquiring into the matter from the Electricity Commissioners.

    MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (DECEASE).
    Miss Cazalet: I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you would consider a request that has come from all quarters of the House, that some reference should be made in this House on the death of one of its Members?
    Mr. Speaker: I have made some inquiries into the question which the hon. Lady puts to me, and, if I can be assured that I have the support of the whole House, I shall be glad to give the question my consideration with a view to arriving at the best way of carrying out the wishes of the House.
    Miss Cazalet: May I further ask you, Sir, as I am sure it is the general wish of the House, whether you would consider making the appropriate statement yourself?
    Mr. Speaker: Of course, I will consider that. I am anxious to do what the House wishes. I will take it into consideration and see how it could be done.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Prime Minister how far he proposes to go with business to-night, in the event of the Motion on the Paper being carried?
The Prime Minister: After the Debate on the Motion with regard to Palestine, we desire to obtain the first three Orders on the Paper, and the suspension of the Eleven o' Clock Rule is being moved in order that that may be done.
Captain Strickland: In view of the seriousness of the Palestine situation,
would not the Prime Minister give a little more time than will be available if he contemplates taking three other Measures tonight after the discussion on Palestine.
The Prime Minister: I do not think that the first three Orders will take much time.
Mr. Gallacher: Is it not possible to carry on the Debate on Palestine after Eleven o'clock for an hour or two extra?
The Prime Minister: Certainly.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 261; Noes, 108.

Division No. 304.]

AYES.

[3.55 p.m.

Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

Craven-Ellis, W.

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Critchley, A.

Guy, J. C. M.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Cross, R. H.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Albery, Sir Irving

Crossley, A. C.

Harbord, A.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Crowder, J. F. E.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh)

Cruddas, Col. B.

Hartington, Marquess of

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Culverwell, C. T.

Harvey, Sir G.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Harvey, T. E.(Eng. Univ's.)

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

De la Bère, R.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Apsley, Lord

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Assheton, R.

Denville, Alfred

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Dodd, J. S.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Atholl, Duchess of

Doland, G. F.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Balniel, Lord

Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.

Hepworth, J.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Dower, Major A. V. G.

Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

Beit, Sir A. L.

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Higgs, W. F.

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Duggan, H. J.

Holdsworth, H.

Bernays, R. H.

Eastwood, J. F.

Holmes, J. S.

Birchall, Sir J. D.

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Ellis, Sir G.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Blair, Sir R.

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Brass, Sir W.

Elmley, Viscount

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Emery, J. F.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Hunter, T.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Bull, B. B.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Joel, D. J. B.

Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

Butcher, H. W.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Cartland, J. R. H.

Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Everard, W. L.

Keeling, E. H.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Fildes, Sir H.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Findlay, Sir E.

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Fleming, E. L.

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Channon, H.

Furness, S. N.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Chorlton, A. E. L.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Latham, Sir P.

Christie, J. A.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Lees-Jones, J.

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Gledhill, G.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Colman, N. C. D.

Goldie, N. B.

Levy, T.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Granville, E. L.

Lewis, O.

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Liddall, W. S.

Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Lipson, D. L.

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Lloyd, G. W.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Grimston, R. V.

Loftus, P. C.

Cox, H. B. T.

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Lyons, A. M.

Cranborne, Viscount

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Procter, Major H. A.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

McCorquodale, M. S.

Radford, E. A.

Storey, S.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Ramsbotham, H.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

McKie, J. H.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Tate, Mavis C.

Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

Rankin, Sir R.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Macquisten, F. A.

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Thomas, J. P. L.

Magnay, T.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Maitland, A.

Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

Titchfield, Marquess of

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Turton, R. H.

Marsden, Commander A.

Rosbotham, Sir T.

Wakefield, W. W.

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Rothschild, J. A. de

Warrender, Sir V.

Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Russell, Sir Alexander

Watt, G. S. H.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

Salmon, Sir I.

Wells, S. R.

Moreing, A. C.

Samuel, M. R. A.

White, H. Graham

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Sandeman, Sir N. S.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Munro, P.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

Savory, Sir Servington

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Owen, Major G.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Withers, Sir J. J.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Peake, O.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

Peat, C. U.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Wragg, H.

Petherick, M.

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Pilkington,

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Porritt, R. W.

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Lieut.Colonel Sir A. Lambert

Ward and Mr. James Stuart.

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Parker, J.

Adamson, W. M.

Hollins, A.

Parkinson, J. A.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Hopkin, D.

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Jagger, J.

Price, M. P.

Banfield, J. W.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Pritt, D. N.

Barnes, A. J.

John, W.

Quibell, D. J. K.

Barr,

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Batey, J.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Riley, B.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Ritson, J

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Kelly, W. T.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

Buchanan, G.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Sanders, W. S.

Burke, W. A.

Kirby, B. V.

Sexton, T. M.

Charleton, H. C.

Kirkwood, D.

Shinwell, E.

Cluse, W. S.

Lathan, G.

Short, A.

Daggar, G.

Leach, W.

Silverman, S. S.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Lee, F.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Leonard, W.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Day, H.

Leslie, J. R.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Dobbie, W.

Logan, D. G.

Sorensen, R. W.

Ede, J. C.

Lunn, W.

Stephen, C.

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

McEntee, V. La T.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

McGhee, H. G.

Thorne, W.

Frankel, D.

Maclean, N.

Thurtle, E.

Gallacher, W.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Tinker, J. J.

Garro Jones, G. M.

Mander, G. le M.

Viant, S. P.

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v'n)

Marshall, F.

Walkden, A. G.

Gibson, R. (Greenock)

Mathers, G.

Walker, J.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Maxton, J.

Watson, W. McL.

Grenfell, D. R.

Montague, F.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wilkinson, Ellen

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Muff, G.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Nathan, Colonel H. L.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Naylor, T. E.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Noel-Baker,

P. J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Oliver, G. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Paling, W.

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.

Resolutions agreed to.

PALESTINE.
4.3 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): I beg to move,
"That this House approves the policy of His Majesty's Government relating to Palestine as set out in Command Paper No. 5513."
Almost exactly a year ago I announced the terms of reference and the personnel of the Royal Commission. It had been decided to set up a Royal Commission in the time of my predecessor, after the beginning of the disturbances of last year. A year has passed, the Commission have visited Palestine and taken evidence there and in this country, and have produced their Report. I venture to say at the outset that no more forceful, searching and remarkable document has ever been presented by a Royal Commission on any subject. I shall deal later with their recommendations for the future, but I believe I shall carry unanimity in this House when I say that their analysis of the situation as it has developed in Palestine from year to year since the War has been unchallenged, and that in the main their summary of the historical background of Palestine, without which no discussion of Palestine is of the least use, for Palestine and any question connected with it goes right back into history —that analysis is not only a great literary work of art, but will stand for all time as the final statement of the historical truth.
Let me say a word about the Commission. Seldom have six men of obvious impartiality and more wide experience been selected to form a Royal Commission. Lord Peel we knew in this House; we know his career. Sir Horace Rumbold, acknowledged as one of the ablest men of the Diplomatic Service, has had wide experience as Minister and Ambassador in many countries of the world. Sir Laurie Hammond was a distinguished Indian Civil Servant, a Governor; Sir William Morris Carter was an ex-Colonial Chief Justice, but more well known for his searching analysis of land problems, the problems of native land and interests concerned with an immigrant community, both in Rhodesia and Kenya; Sir Harold Morris, the universally acclaimed Chairman of the Industrial Court in this country. I should also have men-
2236
tioned Professor Coupland, Professor of Colonial History at Oxford, whose knowledge and study of Colonial administration in the British Colonial Empire and in other colonial spheres is well known to students throughout the world. No more impartial body, no more varied body could have been selected to go fundamentally into this question of Palestine. Deliberately the terms of reference were so widely drafted that instead of concentrating on any one problem, as have previous commissions—not Royal Commissions—they were enabled to take a wide survey. The Commission's Report is a most searching and valuable document, and throughout all the argumentation of the early chapters of their Report, His Majesty's Government find themselves convinced by the arguments and conclusions which they reached. They are unanimous—an impressive fact.
I would make an appeal here. Whatever is said, both on the Jewish side and the Arab side, on this Report and on the policy of His Majesty's Government, I hope hon. Members will remember that practically everything said in this Debate will be scrutinised word by word by both Jew and Arab, not only in Palestine, but throughout the world, and that there is in this problem of Palestine a problem which is not confined to Palestine, but involves the whole of Jewry throughout the world and the whole Moslem world as well. Therefore, it behoves us, in the interests not only of the future relations between Islam and Europe, but the future relations between the Orient and the Occident, to weigh our words in dealing with this gigantic problem arising in a tiny country.
I have only one or two words to say in regard to the historical summary, without which it is quite impossible to study the problem of Palestine. The Commission have been unfairly criticised by writers in the Press and by speakers outside for the use of a particular phrase in, dealing with the McMahon-Hussein correspondence. It is true that the Arabs in Palestine and outside Palestine base their claim as of right on the McMahon-Hussein correspondence. They tendered it in evidence before the Commission and the Commission therefore had to deal with this matter. In one sentence on page 20 the Commission say that they did not consider that they were required

2237
to undertake a detailed and lengthy research among the documents of 20 years ago. That, taken in isolation, would suggest that they have failed in their duty, but, taken with the following paragraph and all the subsequent paragraphs dealing with this matter, it is perfectly clear, and they bring it out for the first time clearly before the public of the world, that the then British Government was not in a position, even if it had the wish, to promise the Sherif of Mecca that Palestine would be included in the Arab territories, because at that very moment it was clearly bound to France, and France had reserved, and told the British Government so, the future of Palestine, and aspired to the hope that it would be French. That is brought out clearly. I served in 1916 in the Arab Bureau in Cairo on Sir Henry McMahon's staff, and I wish myself to testify to the fact that it never was in the mind of anyone on that staff that Palestine west of the Jordan was in the area within which the British Government then undertook to further the cause of Arab independence. And, after all, the whole sequel proves the case. Immediately after the Arab revolt, and in successive months, the then British Government, before the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) became Prime Minister, was advised in these matters largely by the late Sir Mark Sykes, and immediately after the McMahon correspondence and the outbreak of the revolt in the Hedjaz he was instructed by the then Government to get into touch with the French and other Allied Governments in regard to the future of that part of the world. Negotiations were long, with the result that England and France, France then having claimed the whole of Palestine up to the Egyptian frontier, acceded to an arrangement which is set out very fully on page 21 of the Report.
Let me pursue this a little further. When the preliminary negotiations took place leading up to the Balfour Declaration—and it was at least a year after the first adumbration of a desire on the part of the Allied Government to make some approach to the Jewish people had first been thought of—I remember myself serving in the Arab Bureau helping to edit a thing called the "Arab Bulletin" in the autumn of 1916, putting into that
2238
Bulletin information regarding Jewish colonies and Jewish aspirations in Palestine; and all through the early days of 1917 His Majesty's Government and the other Governments were becoming increasingly aware of this factor in the Near Eastern problem, and the Balfour Declaration, which was not issued until November, 1917, was the result of prolonged weeks of controversy—I say that advisedly—in this country, because some people put forward views vigorously opposed to it, after negotiations with France and Italy, and after, as the Commission bring out for the first time, President Wilson was consulted as to its precise terms. It was a most deliberate act. I know the right hon. Gentleman opposite will bear me out. It was not only Sir Mark Sykes but others brought to the attention of the Government the fact that undertakings of a general character had been given to the Arabs, and the McMahon correspondence was fully in the mind of His Majesty's and the Allied Governments when the Balfour Declaration was made. I say it was opposed, but let me make it clear that the Cabinet as a whole were absolutely determined, and the idea that this was a particular nostrum of Lord Balfour or any other individual is quite out of the question.
This further fact should be known, that the draft as originally put up by Lord Balfour was not the final draft approved by the War Cabinet. The particular draft assented to by the War Cabinet, and afterwards by the Allied Governments, and by the United States, expressed in the Resolution of Congress and finally embodied in the Mandate, happens to have been drafted by Lord Milner. The actual final draft had to be issued in the name of the Foreign Secretary but the actual draftsman was Lord Milner. I want it clearly and finally understood that His Majesty's Government neither then nor now can or will admit that Palestine west of the Jordan was included in the pledge given to the Sherif, and that they have always in mind that special considerations must obtain in regard to the future government of the Holy Land. The unique character of Palestine was recognised by the Arab Delegates to the Peace Conference. It is recognised all over the world. It is not purely Arab territory. It is not purely Jewish terri-

2239
tory. It is not purely Christian territory. All the three great world faiths have an interest in that country, and no settlement of this question is possible unless the interests of Moslem, Jew and Christian are recognised in the future of Palestine.
I do not wish to proceed further on that theme but it is essential, in view of the continuance of this argument, that something of that kind should be said. I will say a word once again—it has often been said before—regarding the Balfour Declaration itself. One has to be precise about words, and there is still great looseness in what is deduced by many people from the Balfour Declaration. The pledge of Great Britain and of other Allied Governments was not Palestine as a home for the Jews. It was a Jewish National Home in Palestine—and there is a distinction. The phrasing is clear and the intention is clear. That was made very clear to the Jews at the time and was published to the whole world. I remember those days. The United States was not at war with Turkey but, none the less, the United States permitted us after the Balfour Declaration to recruit Jews in America and bring them over to fight with the British Army in Palestine on the basis of that claim. You cannot get away from those facts.
I turn to the other aspect of the case. There was clearly a general pledge to the Arabs given by the Allied Governments to further their independence. There was a specific pledge both to Jews and non-Jews to promote independence. I think it is fair to remind the Arabs that that independence which they enjoy throughout the Peninsula of Arabia, which they enjoy in Iraq, which they are about to enjoy fully in Syria, and which if this scheme goes through they will enjoy throughout Transjordan and the greater part of Palestine, would not have been achieved but for the fact—and it is not the Jews' fault—that there are 10,000 British graves in Palestine and many more in Iraq. The Arabs owe this country something, and it is tragic that, after all that Britain has done for the Arabs, there should be 20 years afterwards this running sore in Palestine. I am satisfied that the Commission are right and that, the longer the present Mandate with its present Articles goes on, that sore is bound to get deeper and deeper, as they say,
2240
and that the very Articles of the Mandate prohibit us from taking the kind of steps which we have endeavoured, in spite of the Mandate, to take to bring Jew and Arab together. Consider the Articles governing education. We are not allowed under the Mandate to have mixed schools or to have any common system of education.
I have seen a great many British officials in Palestine in the course of the last year and I said to one of them, a subordinate official, "Do you ever get Arabs and Jews to meet at your house?" He said, "Yet, I have tried." The High Commissioner, quite rightly in the view of His Majesty's Government, has endeavoured throughout to bring about conciliation between Jew and Arab. No one has fought harder for conciliation between Jew and Arab than Sir Arthur Wauchope. This official said, "I have endeavoured to get Jews, especially those strange to Palestine, who have come in the last few years, refugees from Central Europe, and moderate Arabs in my district to meet. My first difficulty is always this. The Jews speak German, Polish and Hebrew. The Arabs speak Arabic. If they know a second language, coming from the Levant and Syria, it is French. There is no common language. At all these meetings I have to be the interpreter between them. The whole course of education, bound by the articles of the Mandate, has been to deepen the separation between Jews and non-Jews and we are prohibited by the Mandate from changing that. As long as the Mandate goes on in its present form, there is a constant cause of friction, and very largely the intensification of the Arab National Movement and the Jewish National Movement is the product of the schools. But it is with the young people that the great gulf is seen to-day.
Take another case. Under Article 2 of the Mandate we are bound to promote self-governing institutions. You may say that that might be managed at Geneva; that it might be met by municipal self-government. I would point out that the very next article deals with that; it is to "promote local and municipal autonomy." Article 2 is intended to apply to the country as a whole. Year after year we are asked why we do not implement that; why we do not implement these self-governing institutions. The question was asked of Sir Arthur

2241
Wauchope not long ago, and we all know that, as the result of that obligation of the Mandate, His Majesty's Government made an effort. We know with what reception it met in this House and in another place. In another place only the Government spokesman supported it, and in this House only two supported it, and all efforts demanded by the present Arab majority for the introduction of self-governing institutions have hitherto failed and have been vigorously opposed by all parties in this House, though I make an honourable exception of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher). It is a remarkable fact that it has been argued again and again, and I give that as an illustration. In fact both of these are illustrations.
But the truth which I want to bring home to the House is that the Mandate is a very different thing from the Balfour Declaration. Because the Balfour Declaration is in the preamble of the Mandate, people think that it begins and ends there, but the Mandate is a written constitution of 28 Articles which governs the action of the British Government in the administration of Palestine—and this House too, and we are unable to violate it. In the light of events in Palestine both with regard to revolts and to the growing criticism of us by the Jews, and the growing hostility not only of the Arabs in Palestine but in the Arab world, we cannot go to Geneva and say, "The Mandate is working all right. It can be implemented, and it can never be changed." The Mandate in the minds of some people has become a sort of bible, every word of which is inspired, and that is hopeless. The whole essence of the League of Nations is that treaties and international obligations, when they are shown to be obsolete by the facts of the case, can and should be revised. Half the trouble in the world to-day is that the essence and spirit of the League are not being fully carried out in many matters, and if there ever was a case where the evolution of events has shown that a document requires revision, it is the Mandate drafted in 1921 and approved by the League in 1922.
Let me come back to the essence of the whole subject. Hitherto people have said, "Oh, the root of the trouble in Palestine is economic, or it is because of this or that or the other, or because
2242
it is the weakness of the British administration, or because the personnel has been drawn from Africa where the indigenous populations' interests are to be paramount while under the Mandate they are not to be paramount, and where the special regime and special conditions differing from other parts of the Colonial Empire apply." Surely, the Commission is right in brushing all these things aside as minor and separate. When you come back to the fact that, in spite of the fact that Jewish emigration and Jewish development of Palestine and Jewish independence have done wonders in the face of great difficulties in the last 17 years, benefiting the Arabs, raising the standard of wages and of living and all the rest—in spite of all that, their objection to the National Home and to Jewish immigration gets deeper and deeper in all classes of the community. Why? Because in the world to-day there is one thing in France, in Germany, in every country in the world, for which men are prepared to sacrifice all material things and most cherished traditions, and that is—and it is all-powerful in the world to-day—the worship of nationality. It is nationalism which is the powerful force in the world to-day, and you cannot recognise the elements of the problem in Palestine unless you realise that, in that little country, there is a keen, vivid Jewish nationalism and a keen, vivid Arab nationalism, both of which have rights and are in acute controversy, and the trouble of Palestine is political and not economic. Founded upon that thing which unites all classes or sections of the population is nationality—in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and everywhere, nationality. Nationality is the burning thing in Palestine as it operates to-day.
I come now to the present and more recent position and that is the broad findings of the Commission. They sum it up very clearly on pages 110 and 111, and page 111 is probably the most vital page in the Report. I will say only one thing about what they call the "aggravating causes." They say that the fundamental cause is the fact of nationality, the Arab fears of the Jewish National Home and the Arab objection to it. That is the fundamental cause and the cause of the previous risings, and it was the cause of the rising last year. They give some of the subsidiary causes, and there is one to which I should like to draw attention,

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because we have to have it in mind in considering the future.
The French Government announced early last year that in their view the single Mandate which they held from the League for Syria should be terminated and that it should be replaced by what? By a division and the creation of two independent Sovereign States—a Syrian republic with a Moslem majority, and a Lebanese republic where the Christians are in a majority. As it turned out afterwards, there had to be special arrangements for Alexandretta and it neighbourhood on account of a number of people who were neither Christian Arabs nor Moslem Arabs in that area. The fact that, following the termination of the Mandate in Iraq, there was last year the final emancipation from the Mandate system and the setting up of a free, independent Arab government or governments, two States in Syria, left Palestine and Transjordan the only parts of the ex-Turkish Empire still controlled by a great Power under a Mandate of the League. I am not surprised, in view of this historical association and the fact that all these territories were not divided as they are divided into territories on the map to-day; that they were all one for 400 years under the Turkish Empire, and were one long before that, right away back to the days of the great Arab Conquest when the Byzantine Empire was driven out—I am not surprise that Arab nationalism in Palestine was encouraged to believe and to hope that something of the same fruition of their ideals of national independence would follow in Palestine as it did in Syria. If that is the case, you cannot pretend that that was not bound to happen as the result of the action of the French Government and its friendly reception by the League.
There is another subsidiary cause. Let us not forget what has happened in the Jewish world too. In the Jewish world, owing to the prevalence of ideas which whost of us had hoped finished with the day of the Spanish Inquisition, when there was banished from Spain everybody who was a Jew because of his religion, and when they went on to banish every Jew who was a Christian because of his race, the fires of anti-Semitic persecution have been rearing their hideous heads again. Consequently Palestine has become not merely the hope of the Jews to
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build up a national home as originally intended, namely, a centre of Jewish culture and inspiration and a centre of a real national example to the Jews of the world, a Jewish State as envisaged by Herzl 40 years ago this year. That has been overshadowed by the desire to find in Palestine as elsewhere more and more room for every Jew they can get out of Central Europe at this time.
One is not surprised, but just as we all sympathise with them, it was clear that in the two years up to last year the rapidly accelerated volume of Jewish emigration into Palestine finally frightened the Arabs lest they should be overwhelmed. We took into Palestine, compared with all the other countries in the world, far more of the German-Jewish refugees. Just over one-third went to Palestine, and I think that the next largest number went to Brazil, and thousands more are clamouring at the gates of Palestine to-day, and can you wonder? You are faced, therefore, with this fact, that the conditions in the Arab world and in the Jewish world in the last year or two have both tended to make the inevitable clash in Palestine more difficult, more likely to occur and more acute. All that is borne out clearly in the Commission's Report.
Now what happens? The inevitable result is that the clash has found its expression in the passing, as it were, of the burden of both clashes on to the Mandatory Power. When a few Jews were going in, with no great events happening in the Arab world in the more happy time up to 1929, things went on, and matters could be adjusted. I left the Colonial Office in 1929, after seven years there under successive Governments, and went back there last year, having been out of this question for those seven years. I found the whole atmosphere and the whole of the conditions changed. Formerly there were friendly relations with Jews and Arabs; certainly I was friendly, as I hope I always was, but I found an undercurrent of acerbated criticism of each other from both Jews and Arabs. All were critical of the Mandatory Power, both were pressing their demands, while both were thoroughly dissatisfied with His Majesty's Government. And not only with His Majesty's Government.
I remember seeing an Arab deputation. They said: "We are in despair. We

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may get something from the British Government, but we know that in the British House of Commons there are no Arabs. We know that there are Jews there in every party. There are no Arab voters in the constituencies, but we know that there are 200,000 Jewish voters, and we fear that even if His Majesty's Government in carrying out their pledges of equal treatment to Jew and non-Jew under the League of Nations are fair, there will be pressure, which we cannot exert in England, because we have no power in England through the democratic assembly in the House of Commons. We know that the Jews, whom we fear, in many constituencies up and down the country can bring that pressure to bear." That is what they said to me at the Colonial Office. I assured them that His Majesty's Government would carry out faithfully the pledge, given and repeated by the Labour Government in such explicit terms, that equal weight applied to both Arab and Jew.
I want to carry that matter further. Many people seem to think that the Mandate, the Balfour Declaration, and the rest of it commit us to a specific Jewish policy in Palestine, without regard to the other obligations. I can only repeat that in this matter, once the matter has been accepted as the governing consideration by the League, I am bound by that League decision. We have a League decision. When the Labour Government were in office Dr. Drummond Shiels was sent as the accredited representative of that Government to Geneva with a report on Palestine, and he stated to the Permanent Mandates Commission, in June of that year, the following:
"A double undertaking is involved to the Jewish people on the one hand and the non-Jewish people of Palestine on the other, and it is the firm resolve of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom to give effect in equal measure to both parts of the Declaration and do equal justice to sections of the population in Palestine"
That was taken by the Permanent Mandates Commission and embodied in their Report to the Council, as follows:
"From this statement there are two assertions which should be emphasised, that the obligations laid down by the Mandate in regard to the two sections of the population are of equal weight "—
those are the words not of the British Government but of the Permanent Mandates Commission—
"and that the two obligations are not irreconcilable. The Mandates Commission has no
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objection to raise to these two assertions which in its view accurately expresses what the Mandates Commission conceives to be the essence of the Mandate for Palestine, and ensure its future."
That was accepted by the Council of the League, and that is the Council of the League's interpretation of the Mandate as it stands to-day. Therefore, equality of treatment for Jew and Arab is laid down not merely by the Labour Government—and we have made no change in policy—but it is enshrined now as the interpretation of the Mandate by the League authority itself. Let that be made clear.
Colonel Wedgwood: Why have you not carried that out?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It is six for the Jew and half a dozen for the Arab, and half a dozen for the Arab and six for the Jew. As is pointed out by the Commission in their Report, this principle applies chapter after chapter. In grants of land and everything else the Government of Palestine under these conditions has become a question of arithmetic. "Economic absorption capacity" is a wonderful phrase, not in the Mandate but invented; a very good phrase from the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). This has meant, for instance, in regard to Jewish migration every six months the necessity of computing exactly how many Jews are to come in during the next six months, always ending in a wrangle between the Jews and His Majesty's Government. Every six months, and always that running sore. That being the basis, equality of treatment, taking into consideration Jews and Arabs and their economic interests, how many are unemployed, what chance of a job there is for Jew and Arab, with all the machinery that has to be set up. What is the result? Every six months the Jews put up a case for, say, 1,000. The Jewish case is examined in great detail by a staff in the Migration Office, almost down to the individual job. At the end of it the number is invariably reduced from the original demand. That has been the experience of the last 10 years, every six months. What happens after that? The Arabs immediately complain that too many Jews have come in or are being admitted. Equality of treatment and the capacity of the country are deciding factors. That is the problem which faces the Minister. He has to interpret these League documents, these

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undertakings of the League, into reality, and it is no easy job to do so. The task put upon the Government, the strain upon the Government of Palestine in maintaining law and order, in administering grants, and everything else is complicated, as is shown in every page of the Report, by these conditions, these obligations, these undertakings and, above all, by the present League Mandate. I will not, however, further labour that point.
Let me say something as to the future. His Majesty's Government are convinced, from this Report, that they cannot go on as they are, when the continuance of the Mandate holds out no hope either to the Jews of finding a home in Palestine for a largely increased number of Jews, which is their desire, no hope that Palestine as a whole can evolve into a Jewish State, which was the object of the Zionist movement; no hope for the Arabs, on the other hand, except in a termination of the existing Mandate, of the realisation of their dream of an Arab State. Are we to go on denying forever self-government for the Jew or the Arab?
The Commission are of opinion that the ideals of the two peoples and the intolerable burden upon His Majesty's Government can only be resolved by giving Jews and Arabs sovereign independence and self-government, not over the whole of Palestine but each over a part of it. With that conclusion His Majesty's Government agree. Only by partition can the ideals of both be realised, only by partition can peace be restored to these two nationalities, so that they will be able in the future one to help the other without fear of domination by either. It is the fear of domination of Jew by Arab and of Arab by Jew that is the root of the trouble, and the only way that can be removed is by partition and self-government. That is provided for in Article 28 of the Mandate which, being a Mandate, always envisaged the termination and the fruition of the mandatory period. We are only temporarily trustees in Palestine, trustees on behalf of the League. It is not our territory.
It is envisaged, after the termination of the Mandate over the whole country, that in perpetuity a special regime shall be established for the Holy Places. Let me deal with the Holy Places. They are mainly Jerusalem, Bethlehem and
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Nazareth, together with the Sea of Galilee. Take the capital City of Jerusalem. I do not mean the new suburb but the old Holy City, as it is usually called, within its walls. The eastern half of it, around Mount Moriah, is predominantly Moslem. There you have the Haram esh Sharif, containing the third most sacred shrine in the whole of Islam. In the north-west you have the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and a great Christian settlement there from all parts of the world. The south-west, where there is Mount Zion, is predominantly Jewish. There are the great synagogues, the Sephardic and the Ashkenazic, rising to the highest point as you look over from the Mount of Olives. Mixed up with them is the Caenaculum, and an Armenian settlement, and the Church of St. James, the body of St. James, the brother of our Lord, and the regalia of an independent Armenian kingdom. Then there are the great walls of the Citadel. It is essential that that city should be a Holy City, that neither the Arabs nor the Jews nor even the local Christian community can possibly police and possess it. It must be a trust for the world, in the control and under the permanent guardianship of one of the great Powers of Europe.
We have every right as a Christian country to claim that in perpetuity Bethlehem, the City of David, which has become so associated in the minds of every Christian as the birthplace of our Lord, where the population is predominantly Christian, should he excepted from the Jewish-Arab State. And equally Nazareth, in which everybody also takes an interest and which is
predominantly a Christian town. It is therefore essential that if partition is to be fair, practical and successful, it should be tripartite; and if we are to have the responsibility for Christians and non-Christians we must have the means to enable us to carry out that trust, we must have the necessary forces, the necessary wherewithal, with which to operate that sacred trust. If a continuance of our responsibilities in these matters is endorsed by the League, I think it can be the means of making partition more acceptable both to Jew and Arab, and in that case I think it ought to be done. I believe that our continued presence in Palestine is vital to the amicable settling down of Jew and Arab.

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There will be minorities of all kinds in both States, and it is only the presence of a neutral and friendly Power, friendly to them both, which will enable these minorities to feel that they have somebody to watch over their interests. This question of minorities must be carefully gone into. There will, of course, have to be specific guarantees in any treaties which are made with the new sovereign States which will satisfy the League, and I have no doubt that the League itself will require special machinery for the execution of these minority rights. One of the least satisfactory features of League operations since the War has been its impotence in more than one case to carry out treaty obligations which have been entered into regarding the protection of minorities; and in Palestine we can afford to take no risks.
Mr. Lloyd George: Is it proposed that the British Government should accept the responsibility for the protection of minorities either in Arab or Jewish territory?
Mr. Ormbsy-Gore: I cannot answer that question specifically. It is clearly a question which will have to be gone into when we come to the treaty-making stage, what the regime of the British area is to be and what rights we are to have there. His Majesty's Government cannot decide that; it is for the League to decide. There will have to be negotiations. Let me come to the question of procedure. We cannot make one step in the direction of the policy proposed in the White Paper, we cannot implement any proposal of the Royal Commission, without first going to the League. In fact, the Permanent Mandates Commission has now been invited by the President of the Council of the League to study the proposals of the Royal Commission on Palestine, and they have been asked by him to give a preliminary opinion before the next meeting of the League Council in September.
That is the position to-day. It is essential that I should know whether the House of Commons approves the statement of policy of His Majesty's Government when I go to the League next week to discuss it with the Permanent Mandates Commission. Let me make it clear that in doing so the House of Commons is not being invited to tie itself, any more than is the Government, to the specific pro-
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posals so wisely adumbrated in the last chapters of the Royal Commission's Report. What we are asking the House of Commons to do, and what they will be voting upon, is whether they accept the general thesis that as regards the arguments and conclusions of Paragraph 1 of the White Paper, they agree with the Government that a case has been made out for fundamental changes in the Mandate, so that we may go to the League for leave to begin working out, not the details of this particular scheme but the form of a scheme for the future. We have already made it clear that we believe that the scheme as proposed in its general lines is a scheme of partition which is both practical and just. Any scheme of partition which would be acceptable either to us or the League must be practical and just.
We cannot obviously accept the Amendment put down by the Opposition to refer this matter to a Joint Select Committee of the House of Commons. That would mean that we could not go to the League next week, that we could not get out of the present position until after months of inquiry by a Joint Select Committee, while all these things will be going on, and at the end of it there would still have to be negotiations with representatives of the Zionist Organisation and with representative Arabs long before any scheme could be got into shape and presented to Parliament. There must be a series of fact-finding inquiries. We must ascertain where and how many Arabs can be settled in Transjordania and elsewhere in Palestine; if there is to be a scheme of transfer, and obviously a scheme of transfer is most desirable.
Mr. Lloyd George: And how many Jews can be settled in other quarters?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Yes. All these things will have to be inquired into before anything like a final scheme can be submitted to the House of Commons or to the League for settlement.
Mr. Churchill: Will the right hon. Gentleman say a word on the question of the defence of these various areas? What is to be the method of defence of the Jewish State and of the Arab State, and what are to be the obligations of this country in preventing armed clashes between the two? We should like to hear something about that.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I cannot possibly undertake to deal with that complex question, and I have already occupied too long a time of the House. It is quite obvious that the League would never allow, nor should we, two independent States to come into existence, and a Treaty would not be ratified either by this country or by the League unless the League was satisfied that these two Sovereign States would faithfully undertake the obligations as State members of the League; unless they are satisfied the Mandate is not finally terminated. That is perfectly clear. Do not let us think of these questions of defence in the present atmosphere of racial conflict. When two independent States, a Jewish Government and an Arab Government, have been set up and treaties have been seen by the whole world and approved by the League, it will be a very different atmosphere to that in which we are living to-day. This in our view is the best hope, the only hope for peace. The only way in which the country can get peace is by partition.
Mr. Gallacher: Never.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am stating my view, and I am supported by the Royal Commission. Let me say a word as to the reception of these proposals. It is obvious that proposals so radical, so novel and so unexpected by His Majesty's Government, will take a great deal of prolonged consideration, and it is most undesirable that people should jump to the conclusion that the doors are shut in this and in that direction. The Commission itself came to the conclusion that there is no alternative and that in the end we shall be driven back to proposals on these lines. As to their reception, it is remarkable the enormous volume of public opinion in this country which is behind this Report.
Colonel Wedgwood: Controlled Press.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The Government do not control the Press of this country. We are not a totalitarian State. I have had numerous letters from Jews and Christians strongly supporting these proposals.
Colonel Wedgwood: And Arabs?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Yes, many Arabs are strongly in favour of the proposals.
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The Transjordan Government have come out strongly in their favour and other parts of the Arab world are by no means unfavourable.
Mr. Lloyd George: Backsheesh.
Colonel Wedgwood: What about Iraq?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I will say a word about Iraq. Let me read the following statement:
"I think it only right to say how much His Majesty's Government have welcomed the attitude of moderation generally adopted in the Arab countries towards the Royal Commission's Report. His Majesty's Government, however, have noted with regret certain statements made by the Prime Minister of Iraq to the Arab Committee in Palestine and to the Press expressing strong opposition to the declared policy of His Majesty's Government. On the 16th July the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs addressed strong representations to the Iraqi Prime Minister both through His Majesty's Ambassador in Bagdad and through the Iraqi Minister in London on this subject, and I am glad to be able to inform the House that the outcome of these representations has now been satisfactory."
Mr. Lloyd George: Does he withdraw his opposition?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: He recognises that the alliance between us and Iraq necessitates his having regard to the fact that His Majesty's Government have declared for this policy, and in the circumstances he will not pursue the line of policy which he has pursued in the past. I have not the quotation with me, but the words were to that effect. I have detained the House rather long, but the matter is a complicated one. I think I have outlined the facts of the situation as we see them to-day. I close with an appeal to the House and to the Arabs and Jews in Palestine.
Mr. de Rothschild rose—
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I cannot give way again. I have spoken for a long time, and I was about to terminate my remarks. This will not be the only Debate on Palestine, for when the League has declared its views, there will have to be another Debate in the autumn. I wish to close with an appeal to the House, and to the Jews and Arabs in Palestine and outside, to co-operate with good will with His Majesty's Government, not in wrecking proposals, but in a constructive effort to bring peace to the Holy Land. We believe that the Royal Commission points the road to peace. We believe that

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the mutual obligations of this country and of the League to Jews and Arabs can best be fulfilled by the creation of two sovereign independent States. I ask them to endeavour to see the appalling nature of the alternative; there is no alternative to this that has yet been put forward which holds the slightest chance of success. I appeal to them to co-operate with us in working out the form of a scheme and in achieving peace in Palestine.
5.20 p.m.
Mr. Morgan Jones: I beg to move, in line I, to leave out from "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
"the proposals of the Royal Commission, with their far-reaching effects upon the Jewish and Arab peoples in Palestine, should be closely examined by a Joint Select Committee before Parliament is committed"
I wish at the outset to take the opportunity of associating myself with the tribute which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies paid to the Royal Commission for the very remarkable document which they have presented for our attention. I cordially agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is a very able document, that it gives a very lucid exposition of the problem, that its historical survey is unexceptionable and that its recital of facts is scrupulously fair; but having thus far joined in a tribute to the Commission, I say at once that the conclusions which the Commission have drawn from the facts seem to me to be open to very grave challenge. I say that not as one who is pro-Arab or pro-Jew, but because I have no doubt that the conclusions presented by the Commission are conclusions which the House would require far more time to examine than is available this afternoon. I recognise that the right hon. Gentleman was making a statement on an exceedingly complicated matter, but if he will forgive me for saying so, he overlooked the fact that he had to commend to the House the reasons for the first statement in the Government's White Paper, the second sentence of which reads:
"They find themselves in general agreement with the arguments and conclusions of the Commission."
The right hon. Gentleman devoted 50 minutes of his speech, if not more, to an examination of the question whether the Mandate had or had not failed, and he
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almost completely forgot to advance to the House any reasons for the partition. I do not say it was his intention to do so, but he seemed to me to treat the House in a very inadequate way, for we are entitled to know on what grounds the Government have come to the decision to express accord with the proposal for a partition of Palestine. I would like at this point to say that the case for our Amendment has been enormously strengthened by the character of the right hon. Gentleman's speech this afternoon. He said that the question at issue is not merely one of Islam and Jewry, but in his judgment a question of the Orient and the Occident. Therefore, it is a most far-reaching question, and one which obviously calls for a most meticulous examination by the House.
It is exactly 10 years ago that the House of Commons had before it the question of further constitutional development in India, and appointed a Royal Commission. The parallel is somewhat close and striking in this respect. The House had to determine what would be its future conduct in regard to India. A Royal Commission was appointed to go to India to ascertain the facts and to make recommendations. When the Commission had presented its report in due time the House discussed it and later a roundtable conference was convened. I would observe at this point that it might be very worth while for the Government again to consider whether a round-table conference, representing Arab and Jewish interests, could not be convened, so that if possible an agreement could be arrived at on this most difficult matter. In the case of India, the Round-Table Conference itself appointed a series of commissions, all of which presented separate reports, after having been on the spot, as is proposed in the present Report in respect of boundary and other questions. Those reports were later available for the Joint Select Committee, which was appointed to consider the Indian constitutional question. Parliament was fully apprised at every stage of the discussions. But in this case, how much has Parliament been told?
The right hon. Gentleman said that evidence was taken by the Commission in Palestine. That is true, except that as far as I know, no evidence was taken on the question of partition, which is the centre of the controversy at the moment.

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Therefore, it is idle for the right hon. Gentleman to say that evidence was taken, for it was not taken on the question of partition. The Commission pronounced on that matter without having taken evidence, as far as I know. It seems to me that the case is abundantly clear for allowing Parliament to discuss this matter much more fully than has yet been done before it takes its final decision and is committed on the matter. The right hon. Gentleman said that the next stage will be that the Report will go to the Permanent Mandates Commission and then to the Council of the League, and that when the League has given its general approval—
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Its preliminary approval.
Mr. Jones: It makes no difference to my argument.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It makes a very great deal of difference. It is the word used by the President of the Council of the League.
Mr. Jones: When the League has given its preliminary approval, the matter will come back here, but the League will have been committed, and we shall be told by the right hon. Gentleman that the League has decided in principle, and then I am afraid it will be too late to ask the House to undo something on which the League has taken a general decision. Let me turn now to the next point. The Report has been presented. I pass over the intervening period, for that was discussed by the right hon. Gentleman, and there are other hon. Members who know the story much more intimately and personally than I can hope to know it; but there is one thing that I will say, and I think it is right that it should be said. I feel that this House should once again register its protest against the cynical levity with which pledges and promises were made to both sides years ago. Phrases dexterously constructed, vague in character and lacking in precision, may get us out of a corner to-day, but tomorrow they may land us in a morass of perplexity and confusion. I think that much of the difficulty has been created because of that indefiniteness at various stages.
I come now to the Report, which I think may fairly and properly be divided
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into two parts. The first part analyses the disease, and the second part propounds a remedy. What is the disease from which Palestine has suffered, in the view of the Commission and indeed the view of the right hon. Gentleman? The right hon. Gentleman was almost vehement this afternoon in his insistence upon the point that the root of the trouble is the Mandate. I listened to the case which he made out on that. He referred, in particular, to the narrow limits within which education may be provided for both sides in Palestine. Is it to be argued that the Government could not go to the League and say that that particular article of the Mandate is too narrow and that they were too confined? Did the Government do that? No. On the contrary, it has been used as a reason for abrogating the Mandate altogether.
I doubt whether the right hon. Gentleman would try to controvert the proposition that there is, at least, a strong case for urging that it is not so much the Mandate itself that is at fault however much blame may be attached to it, but that most of the disease arises from the maladministration of the Mandate. The Commission has provided abundant testimony to show that under the Mandate substantial economic progress has been achieved in Palestine. I think the right hon. Gentleman himself conceded the point that on the economic side little can be said against the operation of the Mandate—a fact which has given us on this side of the House great satisfaction. It is important to observe, too, that the Arab section of the community has benefited enormously by the operation of the Mandate. Hon. Members who are interested will find in the Report on pages 125 to 130 a series of statements which bear eloquent testimony to the substantial benefits accruing from the Mandate not only to the Jewish section of the population but to the Arabs as well.
The Arab bourgeoisie in Palestine has derived enormous benefits under the Mandate. The Commission record that the Government reported in 1933 that the number of Arab industrial undertakings had risen from 1,200 before the War to over 2,200 at the time when the Report was drafted. Not only the bourgeoisie but the fellaheen have benefited, and in the Report there is evidence to show that

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Arab wage-earners are enjoying wages comparable with those of some of the best-paid workmen in our own country. Those facts give us enormous satisfaction. One of our tests of the success of a government is whether it raises the standard of happiness and contentment for the great mass of the people and we rejoice that the Mandate in Palestine has produced such excellent results. The Report also says that the social services in this area are even more efficient than those in Provinces of India and in certain other parts of the Empire. There is excellent testimony in the Report that, judged by economic and social results, at all events, the Mandate has been a success.
The right hon. Gentleman said that its failure had been in the realm of politics. Governments come and Governments go, and I do not think we can impose the blame for every fault of administration in Palestine on the Government of the day, but there is a Civil Service in Palestine many of whose members have been recruited in the most haphazard and unfortunate way. They have had no experience. Many of them were officers who served in the late War. They have little knowledge of the actual job of government. In so far as faults of administration may arise from inexperience we can condone them. But it is an understood principle of the Government in this country that where civil servants are concerned, Ministers are answerable in this House for their conduct and in return if those civil servants accept service under the State anywhere, it is their obligation to bring to bear upon their task an unbiased and unprejudiced mind and to be prepared to carry out the policy of the Government whether they are in accord with it or not. It is on this point that I propose to adduce from the Report, not from my own imagination, evidence which makes one feel a little unhappy—to put it mildly. I refer hon. Members to page 163, paragraph 42:
"The complaint was made by the Jews that several officers displayed pro-Arab sympathies; that, even if they did not dislike, they did not understand the Mandate and their obligations thereunder. This evidence received support from other quarters."
Let me read another passage:
"The general uncertainty as to the ultimate intention of the Mandatory Power …
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has made it possible for the Arabs to interpret the conciliatory policy of the Palestine Government and the sympathetic attitude of some of its officials as showing that the British determination to implement the Balfour Declaration is not whole-hearted."
I hesitate to use strong or unkind language, but I am not sure that some of the passages in this Report would not justify the use of the word "sabotage" in regard to some of the operations under this Mandate. I know that it is a very severe term to use, but I think it would be justified. Then I come to the question of public security, and I shall trouble the House with two quotations on this point in order to show that the trouble lies more in maladministration than in the nature of the Mandate itself. On page 201, paragraph 54, we read:
"'The first of all conditions necessary for the welfare of any country is public security.' So wrote the First High Commissioner of Palestine when reviewing his five years of office. To-day it is evident that the elementary duty of providing public security has not been discharged. If there is one grievance which the Jews have undoubted right to prefer it is the absence of security. Their complaints on this head were dignified and restrained."
Another passage is as follows:
"If one thing stands out clear from the record of the Mandatory administration it is the leniency with which the Arab political agitation even when carried to the point of violence and murder has been treated."
Then on page 135, there is a reference to those Arabs who were inclined to show themselves, shall I say, reasonably tolerant:
"For an Arab to be suspected of a lukewarm adherence to the Nationalist cause is to invite a visit from a body of 'gunmen'."
That is a grave statement, and it constitutes a tremendous indictment of the effectiveness of the administration in Palestine. Then let me take the question of social legislation. The Mandatory Power is operating in Palestine in the name of the League. International Labour Office Conventions are applied by His Majestys' Government in Colonies and Protectorates and yet frequently they are precluded from being applied in Palestine although we are there particularly as representing the League. Surely that is a very unfortunate attitude. It seems to me to show that there has been something in the nature of a subtle and sustained opposition to the Mandate in Palestine.

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I turn to the recommendations of the Commission. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman did not feel it necessary to adduce more cogent arguments in support of the Government's decision to accept the partition proposal. Let us assume that the Mandate is to be done away with and that some form of partition is necessary—though that is only an assumption for the sake of argument. Even then, I suggest, the proposals of the Commission are unthinkable. They are wholly unacceptable. I have paid a tribute to the Commission for their historic analysis of the problem, but in reading this document it seems to me that there is a hiatus between the presentation of the case and the presentation of the remedy. It seems to me as though the remedy had not been considered with the same care as the historical presentation of the case. It is proposed that Palestine shall be divided, virtually, into three smaller Palestines, a Jewish State, an Arab State and a Mandatory State, shall we call it. But in each of those three States there may be reproduced the exact circumstances and characteristics which now apply to the whole. By this method you will not remove from any one of those States the difficulties which you now regard as insuperable in the case of the whole of Palestine.
Take the question of population. In the Jewish State there would be, I gather, 225,000 Arabs and 258,000 Jews. The right hon. Gentleman very properly reminded us that the Commission have said that the Government of Palestine has become a question of arithmetic. Let me put the right hon. Gentleman this question in political mathematics. If 1,000,000 Arabs cannot live and work with 400,000 Jews, how can 225,000 Arabs live and work with 258,000 Jews? The same problem applies to the Arab State—the Arabs in a majority and the Jews in a minority, with the same intense feelings in both areas as have been described. The right hon. Gentleman need not shake his head. He knows that to be the fact because the Arabs in the Arab State will still believe that they are entitled to the whole of Palestine. That is the whole of the case which the Commission puts up on behalf of the Arabs. But you set up these two States, and in between the Arab State and the Jewish State, roughly speaking, you have the
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Mandatory State. The intervening part I have called a corridor. I should have thought that most people in this House had had enough of corridors by now. Do hon. Members like the situation in East Prussia so much that they want another corridor, with Arabs on one side and Jews on the other? What is likely to happen? You cannot guarantee that for all time the Jews and Arabs in the Jewish State will agree, and you cannot guarantee that the Jews and Arabs on the Arab side will agree. Supposing there is trouble, who is to be called in? The mandatory Power, and so you will be called in one week when there is trouble here and the next week when there is trouble there, and your last position will be worse than your first.
The next thing that I want to say is this: Take the size of the Jewish State. I believe it is about 2,000 square miles, with a seaboard of about 80 miles. I do not care whether the right hon. Gentleman says that it ought not to be called a national home for the Jews or a home for Jews. I do not care what he calls it. We began anyway, or the Jews began—they may be wrong, but they began—by believing that they were entitled to an area which comprised Transjordan, and that comprised 45,000 square miles. Transjordan was taken off, and that reduced it to 10,000 square miles. Now you are taking the rest of Palestine off, and it is now less than 2,000 square miles. Is this the home? Is this the promise?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: A Jewish home in Palestine.
Mr. Jones: I can only say that if this is to be that fulfilment of pledges and promises to which I referred at the beginning, it is a pity that those pledges and promises were not made more explicit long ago. Here is this strip of fertile land given to the Jews, and next to them the Arabs occupy behind it high land, dry and unproductive. There is going to be among them great dissatisfaction. That cannot be denied. Now take the Jewish State, with this dissatisfaction that the Arabs feel, and look at its defencelessness. At one point the Jewish State is about seven-and-a-half to nine miles wide, and running along its edge are these hills. Have you any guarantee that when the Arab State is established the Arabs, in pursuit of the

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independence, as they call it, of the whole of Palestine, may not fortify those hills; and if they do fortify those hills, how much would you give for the life of anybody in the towns, seven miles away? Is Britain going to defend them? You say that you are going to exercise a temporary Mandate. You reduce this Jewish State to less than 2,000 miles, and then you say that inside that territory not one single town shall remain wholly Jewish, except Tel-Aviv.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: "Shall remain"?
Mr. Jones: There will not be a town left in the State, because all the rest are under the Mandatory Power, except Tel-Aviv. Take Tel-Aviv, a most important port. The Report actually says that the people of the Jewish State are not to be allowed to exercise control of the Customs there, in their ports of Haifa and Jaffa.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Jaffa is an Arab port.
Mr. Jones: I mean Haifa. They are not going to have complete control of the Customs there, and they are not even sure that they are going to have complete control of Tel-Aviv as a port. Now will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what he means by flinging about this word "sovereignty"? You are abusing language when you use the word "sovereignty."
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have not got the hon. Member's point.
Mr. Jones: There is to be a joint port at Tel-Aviv.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No.
Mr. Jones: But these are the facts. Jaffa and Tel-Aviv are to be under the control of a joint board. If my statement of fact is right, and the right hon. Gentleman is wrong, I cannot quite understand the Government giving their approval to this thing.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I want to make it clear that we specifically, in our White Paper, say that we are not tied to this. I understand that Jaffa is to be an Arab port and that Tel-Aviv will be a Jewish port, but the Royal Commission recommend that it would be in the interests of the country if they could work a joint port.
Mr. Jones: The right hon. Gentleman has forgotten the point with which I started. He says that they are not committed to everything in the Report, and that is true, but they have expressed their general approval of the Report, and the House to-night is being asked to agree with them in that approval. I say that, from my point of view, this junction of Jaffa—but let me read paragraph 31, on page 388, where it states:
"In the event of Partition, such a port should be controlled by a Joint Harbour Board, composed of representatives of the Arab and Jewish States and presided over by an officer of the Mandatory Government."
Do you call that sovereignty? The right hon. Gentleman must forgive me, but I am asking him whether he regards this as sovereignty if a joint board of that sort is set up, with a President representing the Mandatory Power in the only place where the Jews may desire to have—
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: It is certainly not sovereignty unless the Jewish State and the Arab State agree to set up a Joint Board.
Mr. Jones: The right hon. Gentleman may return to the point again, but I have put my point, and I still adhere to my analysis of the situation.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: We are not going to force it on either Jew or Arab. It is the intention that Jaffa should be an Arab port.
Mr. Jones: Very well, then, that is a little advance. Now let me take the transition period. The Report suggests that immigration of Jews into the Arab State is to be prohibited, but it does not say that immigration of Arabs into the Jewish State is to be prohibited. Is that just? Take another point. Everybody knows that there has been built up in Palestine a most valuable piece of industrial enterprise, the electrical power station and the Dead Sea potash works. Outside the Jewish State there happens also to be—I do not say it is of great importance, but it is of psychological importance—at the South end of the Sea of Galilee a little place called Dagania, which is very specially significant to those who are associated with the Labour movement in Palestine. They have built up in that little confined area a series of

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settlements of great value, as experiments if you like. As I understand it, this area too is to be lost in the Arab State. Finally, one of the last and most unkind cuts of all suggested by the Commission is in respect of Jerusalem. Jerusalem, after all, is the heart and soul of the Jewish hope in respect of Palestine. It is quite true that Jerusalem—
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Earl Winterton): The hon. Gentleman will not forget that Jerusalem is sacred for Christians too.
Mr. Jones: Yes, and for Christians and Moslems, too. Jerusalem has holy places for all alike. But outside that area where the holy places are there are 75,000 Jews, and they are to be thrust outside their independent State. I do not deny, of course, what is well known to everybody, the significance of Jerusalem for us all, but I would like to quote a passage, a most eloquent passage, from an interview with the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Dr. Isaac Herzog, in the "Daily Telegraph." These are his words:
"On the banks of the rivers of Babylon our forefathers exiled from Zion—virtually another name for Jersualem and also a synonym for Palestine—solemnly swore: 'If I forget thee, oh Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning.' With what tenacity have we clung to that oath throughout centuries of exile. In joy and sorrow, in the house of the mourner, at the wedding feast, under the nuptial canopy, at the burial service, we have never ceased to remember Jerusalem.
In our prayers, private, public thrice daily, and in the Grace after meals, we pray for Jerusalem. The inspiring service of the Passover, held in every Jewish home throughout the world, and the solemnest service of the Synagogue on the Day of Atonement, both conclude with the exclamation, 'Next year in Jerusalem.' It is impossible to overstate the spiritual significance of Jerusalem to the Jews.
The Jewish mind is focussed on that magic name 'Yerushalayim,' which never fails to stir the Jewish heart to the uttermost. An Englishman could perhaps think of England without London, an Irishman of Ireland without Dublin, even a Greek of Greece without Athens, but to the Jews 'Eretz Israel,' the land of Israel, without Jerusalem is unthinkable."
They are to be cut away from this magic city of their minds and hearts.
Lastly, there is the intention that the Jewish State shall pay a subvention to the new Arab State. I would like to ask this
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question: Now, looking at this problem from the standpoint of Jews and Arabs —I want to overlook the case of neither—is this scheme workable? Can it bring peace? Is it a fulfilment of pledges to either of these peoples? It seems to me that the House must say at once, and insist upon it, that further discussion shall be made possible if such a scheme is to be acceptable at all. We urge that the House must preserve its freedom. We ask that it should not be committed at this early stage. It desires to assist both the Jew and the Arab. It seeks the happiness and prosperity of both. To do that I submit that it must walk with care and circumspection, and to that end it must fortify itself with more knowledge of the facts of the situation than has yet been presented to it. If the decision invited by the Government is taken by this House, it might involve a quarrel or dispute or difficulty between the Moslem world and Jewry. It might even involve a dispute between the Orient and the Occident. A decision of that sort must not be taken lightly and without care.
6.2 p.m.
Sir Archibald Sinclair: Let me in my opening sentence associate myself with the tribute which has been paid by both the previous speakers to the members of the Royal Commission. Wishing to do it, as I do with all sincerity, I cannot however associate myself with the wording of the eloquent and sincere tribute which was paid by the Secretary of State. When he said that this Report would stand for all time as the final statement on the history of Palestine, I felt that there were in the Report grave lacunae both in regard to the pledges which were given to the Arabs and the Jews, and also in its analysis of the events of last year which must inevitably deprive it of that title. Nevertheless, I agree that these gentlemen have applied themselves with energy and devotion to the task which His Majesty's Government assigned to them, and they have produced the massive, searching and candid State document which is the basis of our Debate to-day. For my own part, I cannot read it without a sense of humiliation, for it makes it clear that since 1929 the record of British administration in Palestine has been one of irresolution and that we are now faced with the bankruptcy of one of the most imaginative enterprises which British statesmanship has ever undertaken.

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Before Parliament makes its decision, let us be clear about the pledge which was given to the Jews. The right hon. Gentleman quoted it from memory. Let me quote the actual terms of the Balfour Declaration:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
"A Jewish national home in Palestine" which has been repeatedly defined, as for example by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) when he was Colonial Secretary, as meaning a home to which the Jews would be able to go as a right, asking nobody's leave, and subject only to the one reservation that by going there they must not prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities; and that has been brought down to the sharp point of the economic absorptive capacity of the country. Subject to that limitation, this pledge gives Jews the right to go to their own home in Palestine without asking anybody's leave.
What use was made of that pledge? The Royal Commission tells us that not only was Jewish opinion rallied with enormous effect in the United States and all the Allied countries, but pamphlets were dropped from the air on German and Austrian towns and widely distributed through the Jewish belt from Poland to the Black Sea; and that all too late the Germans began themselves to make an alternative plan for setting up a Jewish State in Palestine. We reaped the full benefit of that pledge. No British statesman could have expected it to bring greater help to the Allied cause in its time of need as in fact it did. The Jews fulfilled their part of the bargain without stint. It is true that we gave promises to the Arabs, too, and we got help from them, too, and nobody in this country will forget it. Have we shown forgetfulness? Have we not carved out five Arab Kingdoms, emirates and sultanates—Hedjaz, Yemen, Nejd, Iraq and Transjordan? And now they are to get a state in Syria. After the War the Arabs complained that in one respect our pledges to them conflicted with our pledges to the Jews. They pleaded that they ought
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to have on a fair interpretation of the McMahon correspondence the country east of Jordan. How was that conflict resolved? It was resolved by cutting off Transjordan and giving it to the Arabs. The land of Gilead and Moab was cut off from Palestine. I do not complain; I think the British Government were bound to do it. I am not objecting to the policy, but I am asking the House to note that we have at every stage amply fulfilled the pledges which we gave to the Arabs, even though it meant that in the 116,000 square kilometres which Palestine then covered, the Jewish national home was confined to 26,000 square kilometres.
So that the Arabs, as the result of the Arab victory, obtained five kingdoms, and the Jews found that the Balfour Declaration was whittled down to what the author himself called a small notch in the Arab country. The Secretary of State said that we gave under the McMahon Letter and the Balfour Declaration a general pledge to the Arabs and a specific pledge to the Jews. My submission to the House that we have amply fulfilled the general pledge to the Arabs and that we have failed to fulfil the specific pledge to the Jews. Well may the Royal Commission say, in paragraph 19:
"The Arabs do not appear to realise in the first place that the present position of the Arab world as a whole is mainly due to the great sacrifices made by the Allied and Associated Powers in the War, and, secondly, that, in so far as the Balfour Declaration helped to bring about the Allies' victory, it helped to bring about the emancipation of all the Arab countries from Turkish rule."
The debt of the Arabs is not only to Britain and the Allied countries, as the Secretary of State reminded us; the Arabs have a debt to the Jews, too. Is it just or reasonable to this powerful agent of allied victory and of Arab emancipation, the Jewish people, that the provision of a national home for the 16,000,000 in World Jewry should be whittled down to a territory the size of an English county?
Then, of course, came the Mandate. I will not quote its terms, which are on page 34 of the Report. Has it been fulfilled? No one claims that the civil and religious life of the Arabs and the other non-Jewish communities have not been amply safeguarded. With one exception, in regard to educational facilities, to which the Secretary of State referred, the Royal Commission found that the Arab

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grievances cannot be regarded as legitimate under the terms of the Mandate which we accepted from all the powers of the world who are members of the League of Nations. Again, it is the Jews and not the Arabs who are found by the Royal Commission to have legitimate grievances against His Majesty's Government. There are several of them set out in the Report —a dozen, I think. I want to mention two in particular.
The first is the failure to maintain law and order. In that connection many of us who were in the House at the time remember the disbandment of the Palestine Gendarmerie against which we protested. The second grievance is the unsympathetic administration. I will not weary the House with a repetition of the quotations from the Royal Commission's Report which were given by the hon. Gentleman who preceded me. The Commission said in a passage from which he quoted that the administration gave to the people of Palestine the idea that they were not wholehearted in carrying out the Mandate. Curiously enough, in the summary of the recommendations where that paragraph is mentioned, the word "sincere" is substituted for "wholehearted." The administration gave the impression to the people that they were not sincere in carrying out the Mandate. If they gave it to the Arabs they certainly gave it to the Jews too.
The right hon. Gentleman said that the Mandate prevents a positive policy of co-operation. He made a case for its Amendment in particular in respect of education, pointing out that under the terms of the Mandate it was impossible to set up joint schools; but there is no need for partition to do that. Who can say that the Mandate has failed beyond the possibility of amendment, even in such a matter as education, when the Royal Commission candidly endorses so many of the Jewish grievances and makes it clear that there has been no wholehearted, no sincere effort to apply it? The policy of the Palestine Administration, as the Royal Commission found, had the effect of encouraging the most extreme political elements among the Arab population. Law and order were not enforced. The Royal Commission have described that as the most serious and the best-founded of the Jewish complaints. They find that the British Government and the
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local administrations failed in the most elementary duty of government, the maintenance of law and order in the country which they were governing. Perpetrators of outrages were not punished, and, on the other hand, no special favours were shown to peaceful Arabs, to people who were willing to co-operate in making the Mandate a success, and there was no positive effort to help the Jews to co-operate in any constructive ways with the non-Jewish peoples. The Secretary of State to-day pointed out what a hindrance the paragraph in the Mandate dealing with education was to the promotion of co-operation between Arabs and Jews. Then why, for 20 years, have successive Governments not come to this House and gone to the League of Nations to ask for an amendment of that paragraph? Why has it only just been found out that co-operation between the Jews and the Arabs was hindered by this paragraph?
Therefore, I say that it is too early for this House to take the final and irrevocable step which His Majesty's Government are asking us to take this afternoon of approving the surrender of the Mandate. This is not an Arab problem only, it is not a Jewish problem only, it is not only a British problem, but it is a world problem. Other nations have a right to be consulted, as the Government recognise. They are going to Geneva to lay their proposals before the nations there. They may not approve of the alternative proposal of His Majesty's Government, and if we lay down the Mandate for Palestine is the House quite sure that there is no otter nation which would be willing to take it up?
Let me now consider the new arrangement, partition, which the Government propose. "What else can we do" to quote the cant cry running through the Press and on the platforms? "What else can we do? Something must be done." It is a policy which fills me with misgiving. First of all, I ask the House to imagine the preliminary difficulties all successfully overcome and two racially-totalitarian States side by side in what we now call Palestine; with all Jews extruded from one State and all Arabs from the other; with the Jews, established along an indefensible coastal strip—congested and opulent, behind them the pressure of impoverished and persecuted world-Jewry, in front of them Mount Zion. Mount Pisgah can never satisfy the

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longings which Mount Zion inspires in the Jewish heart. Obviously the whole Jewish State will, in those circumstances, be fired by the urge to reach by force or by contrivance the goal of Mount Zion and the Jordan Valley.
On the other side of the line the powerful Arab States, perhaps feeling themselves threatened by Jewish aspirations. perhaps envying the fat lands of the coastal plain, fertilised by Jewish gold, will feel the natural urge to win their way back to the coast. The right hon. Gentleman, in his opening speech, referred to the keen, vivid nationalism of the Arabs. Up to now they have only been Arabs of what has never been more than a Province. Now they are to be Arabs in a national State of their own. Will that abate their keen, vivid nationalism? Far from this policy being the road to peace, it seems to me a very dangerous experiment in political chemistry, and perhaps the sooner it fails the less dangerous will be the ultimate explosion.
Perhaps it will never reach that dangerous stage of which I spoke. The proportion of Arabs to Jews in the Jewish State, apart from the mandated towns, is planned to be 225 to 259. There, and in the mandated towns, the same difficulties and problems will arise as in the present mandated territory, but aggravated by the existence of a strong Arab State in the hills of Judea and Samaria, jealously watching the fate of the Arab minorities in the Jewish State, and with a regular army to support its protest instead of bands of hastily, clandestinely and lightly-armed rioters. That, it seems to me, is a dangerous position for the Jewish State to occupy. In the last paragraph of the White Paper the Government say:
"On the other hand, partition would secure the establishment of the Jewish national home and relieve it from any possibility of its being subjected in the future to Arab rule."
I ask the Noble Lord, if he is going to reply: Is this a guarantee of British support for the Jewish State in all eventualities, or is it merely empty rhetoric? The White Paper goes on:
"Above all, fear and suspicion would be replaced by a sense of confidence and security, and both peoples would obtain, in the words of the Commission, 'the inestimable boon of peace'."
What peace? What prospects of peace do the declarations of all the representatives
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of Arab opinion, with the exception, as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, of the Emir Abdullah hold out? The Secretary of State referred to the declaration of the Prime Minister of Iraq, but he did not read it out. The Prime Minister of Iraq says:
"Any person venturing to agree to act as head of such a State"—
that is, an Arab State such as the Government propose to set up—
"would be regarded as an outcast throughout the Arab world and would incur the wrath of Moslems all over the East. I declare, both as the head of an Arab Government and as a private citizen, that I should always oppose any individual's right to stab the Arab race in the heart in order to secure the rulership of the proposed new State."
The Secretary of State told us that the Prime Minister had apologised to His Majesty's Government for using these words. An hon. Member says, "Hear, hear." No doubt he apologised for using the words "as head of an Arab Government," but I do not believe for a moment that he apologised for another word of that declaration, and I shall await to hear whether the Noble Lord can satisfy me on that point. Has the Prime Minister of Iraq gone back on a single word of that public declaration? Is that going to bring peace to the Jewish people?
My third objection is that this proposal means sitting on the safety valve of the Jewish problem in Europe. Recent events in Germany, Poland and Rumania have shown that our twentieth century civilisation is threatened by a new explosion of anti-semitic persecution. Only recently public opinion was shocked by the accounts of the pogrom in Brest-Litovsk, where masses of harmless Jews were killed and houses and shops wrecked by the mobs, the police standing by. A number of people rushed on to the platform and into the Press to condemn the Polish Government, but I think that was unfair to the Polish Government. One must recognise the enormous difficulties of that Government, emerging from the War, from the position of a partition State, struggling against trade wars with Germany and with Russia, with the centre of the country filled with Russian Jews—because that was the old Russian pale—with the doors blocked to all their emigrants —and they used to send abroad 250,000 emigrants a year before the war. That was a very difficult position for the Polish Government.

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The distress of the Poles found expression in hatred of the Jews of the alien element concentrated in comparatively limited areas in their midst. The Polish Government dismissed two high officials whom they held responsible for those occurrences. They are endeavouring to stem the movement which aimed at introducing the German anti-Jewish laws into their country. In doing this they point out that there is an outlet for the Jews, that there are hopes of a substantial number of Jews going to Palestine within the next 20 years. If we close this outlet we shall make the position far more dangerous and far more embarrassing to the Governments of countries like Poland and Rumania. I was shocked to see that some of those who so strongly condemned the Polish Government for what had occurred in Poland are among those who are willing to contemplate the restriction of immigration into Palestine to a figure which is far below the economic absorptive capacity of the country. We ought not to blame Governments like the Government of Poland without acknowledging, with humiliation, our own failure to provide the outlet for the Jews which we promised, the national home in Palestine.
Nevertheless, faced with the grim alternatives suggested in this Report, perhaps the Jews may be willing to consider the proposed partition. If so, there are certain reasonable demands which they are bound to put forward which I was delighted to hear the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) supporting, and which I also desire to support. First of those demands may be the pushing forward of the frontier into the foot hills of Palestine. As Lord Samuel showed in another place yesterday, it would be impossible to administer the present frontier in peace and it would be indefensible in war. Every town and village would be under the guns of an enemy in the hills of Judea and Samaria. In the second place, we ought to give real sovereignty to the Jewish State. I do not think the right hon. Member was fair to the hon. Member about the case of Tel Aviv. The hon. Member referred to paragraph 31. He did not quote the first sentence of that paragraph, in which the Royal Commission say:
"We should regard it as highly undesirable that the provision recently made for loading and landing goods at Tel Aviv should be ex-
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panded into a substantial harbour quite detached from Jaffa."
Then they suggest that the Port of Jaffa and Tel Aviv should be controlled by a joint harbour board. Such arrangements, if made at all, ought to be made only by the Jews themselves, if their sovereignty is to have any reality. I agree with what he said about the limit of time for transferring the territory to the new administration, and also about the limit of the duration of the transitional mandate. Under these proposals, all the towns in Palestine, with the exception of Tel Aviv, would be outside the Jewish National State. A third of the Jews in Palestine would be outside it, and these transitional mandates ought to be terminated at the earliest possible moment.
I agree with him, too, about the vital importance of constituting a kind of Vatican City in Jerusalem, where one-fifth of the Jews now reside. I would just refer briefly to one point which he did not mention, and which is the importance of the Negeb, the territory which borders an Egypt and which might be of very great world importance in time of war. It is territory which is useless to the Arabs; for they have ample territories, and why should the Arabs develop a barren territory like this; but it would be invaluable to the Jews and they might well be able to develop it. I agree with what the hon. Member said about abolishing the Jewish subvention. If any arrangement is made of that kind, it must be made by the Jewish State freely with the Arab State, and not be forced upon them. I hope that the survey of Palestine and Transjordan will quickly be undertaken. I regard partition with repugnance and apprehension but, given the policy of His Majesty's Government and the extreme difficulty and urgency for the Jews of finding a solution of the problem, I do not rule out the possibility that they may desire in the long run to have recourse to it, provided that all those stipulations to which the hen. Member and I have referred are made.
Meanwhile it is much too soon for this Parliament to decide that we should lay down the trust which we received from the nations of the world. We must guard against coming to the conclusion that partition is the only way out. It may be the way into worse trouble than it gets us out of. The scheme of the Royal

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Commission is only a crude outline. It was outside their terms of reference, and they obtained no evidence about it from any of the parties who would be interesetd in the scheme. Good may come out of it, because the threat of it may help to bring the parties together. They may be willing to agree upon a better scheme. The members of the Royal Commission had no previous knowledge of Palestine and of the problems of its practical administration; on the other hand, the scheme was condemned yesterday and torn to shreads in a speech of rare cogency and power in another place by Lord Samuel, who speaks with authority because he was a successful administrator in Palestine. There was peace in Palestine in his day, and he has remained in active touch with its life and problems ever since. He made a series of alternative and constructive proposals. I hope that hon. Members will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Debate in another place yesterday before they vote for this proposal with the idea that there is no alternative. Nobody who reads that speech, whether they believe in it or not, could belive for a moment that there is no alternative. There is a very carefully-thought-out alternative, given by a man with great practical experience.
Other people have suggested alternatives. Why should His Majesty's Government want to rush Parliament into a decision? Members have hardly had time to read the Report, and perhaps those who have read it may be the most reluctant to approve it without careful study of every possible alternative and without consultation with both Jews and Arabs. In the case of another country recently, a far greater country, the great Continent of India, Parliament decided that it would not take a decision on the principle of federation until the matter had been thoroughly threshed out and all possible proposals considered by a joint committee of both Houses. I therefore plead with the House of Commons for deliberation and delay before embarking on this hazardous project of partition. Le us set up, what the Secretary of State called in the speech he made this afternoon, all those fact-finding inquiries in regard to customs, finance, immigration, defence and Transjordan before we decide. Indeed, when I listened to the Secretary of State, I thought his speech
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was in favour of the Amendment from the Front Opposition Bench. He told us that he wanted all those inquiries. He wanted conferences with the Jews and Arabs. Let us have them before we agree to this scheme. The Secretary of State whittled down the Government Motion so far that I began to wonder what was left. He described partition as "so novel, so unexpected, even by His Majesty's Government, that nobody should jump to a hasty conclusion." Then let not this House jump to a hasty conclusion in the Division Lobby to-night.
6.37 p.m.
Mr. Amery: While I have followed with a very large measure of agreement much of the eloquent speech to which we have just listened, I am afraid that I cannot associate myself with its final conclusion. I believe the House will do well to pass the Motion which the Government have laid before us. It is highly desirable, in the circumstances of the moment, that Arabs and Jews alike should know now the decision of this Government and this House on the general principle and, more than that, should know also whether the League of Nations approves of that decision. The position of the Government when they go to the League of Nations next week would be weakened, and an element of uncertainty introduced into their proposals, if they could not say that they had the House of Commons behind them. What the Government are asking to-day is not our acceptance of any detailed scheme, but only our preliminary approval and acceptance of a broad general principle, to be submitted to the League, and subsequently worked out into a scheme. In that working out, there is a great deal to be said for the idea of co-operation by Parliament through the agency of a joint select committee. I believe it would also help the situation if the League of Nations were told from the outset that we were contemplating some such careful study of the whole question, in consultation with Jews and Arabs alike. If the Amendment of the Opposition had been, not in substitution of the Government's proposal but as an annex to it, I think the House of Commons might have taken a very different view of that Amendment. I could hope that even the Government, whether accepting the actual terms of such an Amendment or not, would undertake to

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give careful consideration subsequently to its substance.
After some 20 years of close contact with this problem, I accept, though not without great regret, the conclusion to which the Commission have come. I fear it is true to say that Arab Nationalism has been worked up to such a pitch of intensity that nothing would induce the Arabs to accept Jewish equality of rights in the same territory as themselves, which is of the essence of the Mandate. It may be equally true, as the Commission suggest, that the Jews in their turn accept that same equality only because they believe that in practice and in course of time they will effectively control the whole country and its destiny. I am not so sure that a very different situation might not have been reached if there had been a more definite conviction behind our administration of the Mandate, a consistently firmer hand in dealing with all who endeavoured to thwart our policy; above all, a more positive propaganda, in the schools and outside, on the one hand, to the Arabs to convince them that it was in their interests and that of their children to see their country develop, and, on the other, to the Jews to impress upon them the necessity of the most whole-hearted co-operation with their Arab fellow-citizens. There is plenty of material in the Report to sustain such a view.
All that is past history. However much we may regret it, we have lost the situation in Palestine, as we lost it in Ireland, through a lack of whole-hearted faith in ourselves and through the constitutional inability of the individual Briton, and indeed of the country as a whole, not to see the other fellow's point of view and to be influenced by it, even to the detriment of any consistent policy. In Palestine, as in Ireland, we have reached a deadlock which cannot be overcome, so far as carrying out the original mandatory policy is concerned, except by measures of resolute and ruthless coercion that we, as a nation, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) knows very well, are incapable of carrying out. The Commission now suggest, as an alternative line of policy, a solution which contains at any rate some reasonable hope of overcoming the difficulty. It is a constructive solution which fulfils the pledges
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embodied in the Balfour Declaration, and in some respects fulfils them more completely and earlier than the policy embodied in the Mandate. Partition gives to both parties one of the things to which the Mandate and the Commission say they are entitled, self-government, real and complete, which, under the Mandate policy, we are compelled to postpone almost indefinitely.
Consider the position of the Jews. They would have not merely a national home within another State, but their own national State, with their own flag, their own citizenship, their own defence forces and their customs tariff; they would be free to regulate immigration in their own interests. Those are not small things. More than that, they would be free to enter as equal members into the comity of the League of Nations, as well as to come, upon an equal footing, into free alliance, which I trust will become ever more intimate and close, with this country and the British Empire. Surely those things do meet, at any rate, one great aspect of the whole Zionist ideal, the more positive aspect, as giving to the Jews something which will raise the stature of every Jew in the world outside, which will make him feel that, if he is a loyal citizen of the country in which he lives, there is a country somewhere that is in another sense his very own, where his peculiar life and traditions are sanctified by memories and by hopes. If the area is small, the Jews can look back, not so much to the example of their Hebrew ancestors, as to the example of their cousins, the Phoenicians, in that same region. It may well be that the enterprise and ability and capital of Jewry, even on so small an area, will produce a result that will amaze the world.
On the other hand, as has been pointed out by the Secretary of State, this solution, which meets one ideal aspect of Zionism, does mean a tremendous narrowing down of the relief that Palestine might have offered to the down-trodden Jews of Eastern and Central Europe. In that respect they must feel, whatever they can do on that smaller territory, a tremendous disappointment. In so far as our failure to carry out the Mandate in its original form is responsible for that, we have some moral responsibility to continue wherever we can, in the British Empire and outside,

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to see whether we can help to meet that urgent, clamant need of suffering Jewry in the world. Still you do, through partition, give satisfaction in kind, though I admit not in area, to the ambitions of both nations, though you are asking from the Jews a sacrifice out of all proportion to that of the Arabs. Such as it is, the proposal gives qualitative, though not quantitative, satisfaction to both.
More than that, there is at any rate some prospect that it will bring immediate peace. It is at any rate possible also that in the long run partition may lead to far closer co-operation between the two communities, when they are each independent and deal with each other on a footing of equality. So long as we are there, it is the obvious policy of both to belabour the British administration, the Jews with their superior effectiveness of reasoned persuasion, the Arabs by the more elementary, but, I am afraid, no less effective, method of agitation and terrorism on the spot. Once you have these two States side by side, they will be bound to consult one another. The Arab State will depend for its prosperity on the market of the Jewish State, and vice versa. They will both have railways to discuss, the distribution of electrical power, irrigation, and so on. The Arabs have never objected even to Jewish settlement provided that its limitation was wholly within their control. Once you have equality, you have, I believe, the beginning of co-operation.
Moreover, it was always a part of the conception of the Mandate as envisaged by Lord Balfour and others that it was not merely the conceding to Jewry of an age-long aspiration and a relief from present-day suffering, but that it would also introduce a new and quickening element into the whole of that derelict region of the Near Eastern world, once the home of a great civilisation and the fountain-head of the three greatest religions of the world. I think it may still be possible in course of time for the Jewish State, entering as a free and equal member into some federation of Arab States, to make that contribution to the regeneration of the Near East, which, for some of us, has been not the least of the attractions of the whole conception to which Lord Balfour pledged our word.
So much for the general principle. Let me remind the House again that it is only a principle that the House is asked pro-
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visionally to accept in order to secure preliminary assent from the League. After that it will be the business of the Government, and, I hope, the privilege of this House and the other House, to co-operate in the working out of a scheme based on that principle. We have still to get the scheme. It is perfectly true that the outlines of a scheme have been adumbrated by the Commission, but obviously only sketch outlines, meant to be illustrative rather than final. The Commission themselves acknowledge that they do not regard it as "the only possible scheme, but merely as one possible scheme"; nor have the Government committed themselves to that particular scheme, but only to the view that:
"A scheme of partition on the general lines recommended by the Commission represents the best and most hopeful solution of the deadlock."
The Secretary of State truly points out, using the language of the White Paper, that the Resolution which we are asked to pass to-day is only to enable the Government, on the general principle, to work out subsequently the "form" of a scheme of partition—not details only, but the whole form of the scheme. [An HON. MEMBER: "What does 'form' mean?"] It means a great deal more than mere detail. It means the area, the structure, and a great deal else that goes beyond what I regard as the very hasty and inadequate sketch contained in the last few pages of the Commission's Report. That Report is a great State paper. I think its analysis of the situation, and the conclusions drawn from that analysis, have been worked out with profound insight and devastating logical clarity. At the same time it is obvious to any careful reader that the scheme for carrying out that general conclusion has not been dealt with in anything like the same detailed care. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) pointed out, the Commission never even took any evidence on the subject in Palestine. The conclusion to which they came was very clearly one which only forced itself upon their minds at a very late stage in their proceedings.
Let me draw the attention of the House to a very striking fact. Of the 396 pages of the Report, almost the whole of the first 368 pages, including the whole of Chapters 7 to 19, represent an earlier Report of an entirely different character.

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That earlier Report envisaged the continuation of the Mandate in its present form, and on that assumption made a large number of very interesting detailed recommendations. I shall not attempt to weary the House by going through them, but would draw attention to two of the main ones, because they are complementary and balance each other. The one was that Jewish immigration should be governed, not only by economic absorptive capacity, but by psychological and political considerations, and it was suggested that for the next five years it should be limited to 12,000 a year. As against that, they also recommended in very strong terms—terms whose moderation barely disguised their severity—the need for giving to Jews in that country real security, and the central duty of the Government not to put up with disloyalty on the part of its officials, from the Mufti downwards. After all, there is not much that is either national or homelike in a national home in which you are murdered because you are a Jew, and know that there is very little prospect of your murderer being brought to justice.
Throughout all these chapters to which I have referred, the whole text of the chapters deals with the assumption that the Mandate is continued; but here and there, at the end of some chapter, there is tacked on in a quite obviously added last paragraph, something to this effect: "All the rest of the chapter before is something that might have to be considered if as a matter of fact we were not going to pursue an entirely different policy." These last paragraphs were obviously added by the Secretary, or whoever helped to draft the Report, after the main great conclusion was reached at a very late stage. I do not say that in criticism of the Report itself; on the contrary, I think it is very helpful to us to realise the stages by which the Commissioners were driven to their conclusion. But it is clear that they came to their conclusion so late in the day that they had no time to work out its implications in anything like a considered scheme.
I think that that is evident from a study of the scheme itself. Let me explain what I mean. If we are going to adopt the principle of partition, we have obviously to consider all the arguments and considerations upon which partition should be based. What have the Com-
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mission done? They have taken a perfectly rough and ready rule that the area at present in effective occupation by the Jews should form the basis of the new State, plus a certain amount added, but not enough to prevent the Jews who are in Palestine to-day from being a majority in that area. What principle is there in that? The Commission point out that there are large areas to the South of that which they have allocated to the Jews, where the Jews have already made contracts to take over the land and develop it. That implies that, if the Commission's Report had come two or three years later, and development had actually taken place in that area, it ought to be included in the Jewish State. It is no less obvious that, had the Report been made two or three years ago, the Jews would not have been given half what they are given to-day. Surely we have to consider the bearing on the subject of a number of considerations.
There is, for instance, the whole question of the pledges. After what the Secretary of State has said, it is apparent that the Arabs are getting fulfilment of at least 100 per cent. of their pledges. The Jews, on the other hand, have seen what they believed to have been promised to them whittled down step after step. An area as large as England was whittled down to something like the size of Wales, and now that again has been whittled down to something like the size of Norfolk. At each step, I think it is only fair to point out, the representatives of the Zionist cause have faced the situation with extraordinary fairness of mind and with a reasonable readiness to accommodate and to realise that the pledge may be influenced by many considerations. The last charge that can be brought agianst the Jews in this connection is that they have pursued the policy of Shylock. On the contrary I think they are well entitled to claim that, in this relation of theirs with the Gentile world, they have had a rather raw deal.
That is one criterion. You might take another, the criterion of need. Almost the whole of the Arab world is now, or will soon be, self-governing. It has immense areas of undeveloped land at its disposal. Is there any comparison between their position and that of millions of Jews overcrowded and oppressed in Central and Eastern Europe? By all means let us pay some regard to the

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jealous if new-found exclusive nationalism of the Palestine Arabs. Surely it ought not to weigh too heavily against the terrible need of these people who are suffering to-day under a repression which was never dreamt of when the Balfour Declaration was made. There is another criterion. Who is going to make best use of the land now undeveloped? The Commission very rightly assigned the Huleh Marsh, at present a pestiferous but potentially fertile swamp, to the Jews, because the Jews can make something of it. Why have they not brought under consideration the Beisan area, whose misuse by the Arabs, to whom it was hastily given, is commented on in their Report? Why have they not considered that vast area of the Negeb in the south, inhabited, outside Gaza and Beersheba, by barely 1,000 Arabs, and yet capable, with well boring and dam construction, of supporting a population of 100,000 or more if the capital and enterprise can be applied. I do not ask the House to consider that any of these considerations are necessarily conclusive, but they ought to be taken into account before the form and the structure of the new Jewish State are settled, and it is evident that they were not taken into consideration by the Royal Commission in their haste to complete their Report.
Take again the mandatory enclave or enclaves. The professed object of that scheme is to keep the
"sanctity of Jerusalem and Bethlehem inviolate and to ensure free and safe access to them for all the world."
That is an object—and I include Nazareth and the shores of Lake Galilee—with which the whole of this House will be in complete sympathy. But is the machinery for carrying it out, or for maintaining temporary law and order in Haifa and one or two other places, at all workable or necessary? Apparently in this minute and scattered area, this thing of shreds and patches, the Commission envisage a complete mandatory administration for purposes really outside these limited objects. They envisage that it shall have its own national status. The inhabitants of it are to be British-protected subjects and never to have a prospect of self-government in any form, and this in respect of the 76,000 Jews most of whom live in a compact city outside the walls of the old city of Jerusalem. Why they should be denied what is given to Jaffa,
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why the Arabs should have something which does not affect any national sentiment, while Jews should be denied any part or lot in Zion for their Zionist State passes comprehension. It is to have a separate Customs administration and one based on principles different from that of the two States. At the end of Chapter 8 they lay down that the mandatory principle of non-discrimination is out of date as regards the new States. But in their conclusion they suggest that it should be upheld for the new mandatory area.
Are you to have a barbed wire fence on both sides of the road and railway from Jerusalem to Jaffa? Is every Jewish car or camel which crosses from one part of the Jewish State to the other across this corridor only to be allowed to cross in bond and under seal? Take the railway situation. I gather that this little piece of territory is to have a 15-mile railway system of its own, with a 6-mile cross-section. I gather that the peaceful traveller visiting the Holy Land, going, say, to Haifa, from Egypt, will, after leaving the Egyptian railway, travel on an entirely disconnected and purposeless section of Arab State railway, then travel a few miles on the Jewish State railway, then for five or six miles on the mandatory State railway, then back on the Jewish State railway, then on a section of the Arab State railway, then back on to the Jewish and finally end at a terminus in a temporary mandatory enclave! The same applies to agriculture and to education. The whole thing is really preposterous.
If the object is only that which the Commission indicate, it could be perfectly easily met, in the first place, by giving the High Commissioner direct control for municipal and law and order purposes over the Holy City of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth, leaving their citizens free for other purposes to enjoy a national life, belong to one or other country, have the education of the people they belong to. In addition to that, the High Commissioner should secure by treaty full rights of access and free movement for all visitors to Palestine as well as for his own troops. It is quite superfluous to create a 15-mile corridor bisecting the Jewish State in order to secure free access to Jerusalem.
I admit that there might be another solution. There might be something to

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be said for retaining a really substantial and workable mandated area. If you were to do that you might retain for the High Commissioner and his Government the whole of Palestine south of the line Jaffa-Jerusalem-Jericho and carry it on under the principle of impartiality between all communities, with migration according to the absorptive capacity of the country. Then if the Jews prove that they can develop the Negeb they can do so without getting it given them before they prove it. I am not concerned, however, at this moment with putting the case between different alternative schemes. My point is that the Commission's scheme as it stands is only the merest sketch. It really has not been fully thought out. The Commission never called the evidence, which is essential before such a scheme can be drawn up.
I entirely agree that the parallel of India is well worth considering in this connection. India is vaster but not much more complex. In India we had the first stage of the Simon Commission adumbrating somewhat dimly a new conception, which was crystallised at the Round Table Conference, of federation and responsible Government intimately linked together. The Government accepted that, but frankly recognised not only the necessity for fact-finding commissions, but that the matter was one in which Parliament was entitled to have a much fuller say than was possible in a Debate. Let me read the remarks made by the present Home Secretary when he introduced the resolution setting up the Joint Select Committee:
"It would be altogether unfair, it would be almost criminal, to ask the House and indeed to ask Indian public opinion to come to definite decisions after two or three days' Debate… The Government and I wish at the earliest moment to ask for the co-operation of Parliament in our difficult task, to put our proposals before them and to ask the Committee of both Houses to give us the great value of their advice before we ask the House to come to a final decision."
Surely every word of that applies here. That this should be done is no more a disparagement of the great work done by the Commission than the work of the Joint Select Committee on India was a disparagement of the work done by the Statutory Commission, whose report they recognised was the starting point for their
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deliberations. There is an urgent need for a carefully worked out conclusion to the general principle which, I hope, the House will accept to-day.
The procedure which I have suggested as subsequent to our main decision would carry much greater weight in the House of Commons, and would be valuable in regard to the essential feature of future continuity of policy. There may well be a change of Government before all this business is finally carried through. It would carry much greater weight with the League of Nations. It is not the function of the League or of its Mandatory Commission to do our work or to shoulder the responsibilities which are properly ours, and which only we have the knowledge and experience to carry out. It is the function of the League to be satisfied by us that the work has been properly done, that all the relevant circumstances have been studied, that all who have a right to a say in the settlement of their fortunes have been listened to and had an opportunity of putting their view. It would, too, carry greater weight with both Jews and Arabs. Faced with this sudden scheme both sides have actually in public rejected it. They could not afford to do anything else. But if each side knows that it is going to have an opportunity of stating its case not only against the general principle but on every detailed point, it may begin to become much more reconciled to the idea and much more reluctant to forgo the advantages which partition gives to each side.
Alternatively, while the two delegations, Arabs and Jews, are consulting with a Joint Select Committee they might at some stage suddenly come to the conclusion which the true mother came to in the case of Solomon's judgment and come to an agreement between themselves. They may find their own alternative. Believe me, we cannot find an alternative now. The only people who can find an alternative to partition are the Jews and Arabs themselves. What I suggest need not involve delay. I quite agree that it is desirable to have the utmost expedition in setting up the new States and avoid prolonging an uncomfortable, indeterminate period of transition. If a Joint Select Committee were set up at the beginning of November I believe it could terminate its deliberations and report by March or April. The Government's fact finding inquiries would certainly take

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quite as long. In any case there is an immense amount of work to be done, and I doubt if it would be done any sooner if the whole of it were put on my right hon. Friend, with all his other responsibilities, and on the staff of the Colonial Office, who have to deal with all the administrative problems of a world-wide colonial Empire.
No one has a higher opinion of the ability and fair-mindedness of the officials of the Colonial Office than I have. No one possibly could, because I worked with them so long. But it is no disparagement of their work or their capacity to say that their ability could with advantage be supplemented by the wider political outlook and the general experience of Members of Parliament. I believe it is the duty of the Government to give a clear and definite lead on the main issue, and I congratulate them on having come so promptly and definitely to a decision on the main issue. But I hope that in doing so they will not overlook the advantage of associating Parliament as closely as possible with the work, or forget the vast reserves of ability, of range of experience, of fair-mindedness and good sense which are at all times available in the rank and file of both our ancient Houses.
7.17 p.m.
Mr. Frankel: I rise with some trepidation following speeches made by right hon. Gentlemen who have such profound knowledge of this question and have had experience of the country itself for a number of years. I also rise as a Jew who has never been officially connected with the Zionist movement or with any special organisation connected with Palestine. But I face my responsibility as a Jew in this House, with the whole Jewish race, of having to take a most important decision. Having spent the whole of my adult life in the movement represented by Members on these benches, the problem will perhaps appear to be a little different to me from what it does, perhaps, to other Jews facing the same sitution. The Secretary of State said there was a great fear in Arab circles, which had been expressed to him, that justice would not be done to their cause because they were not represented in this House, whereas the Jews are represented in this country and have Members in the House. I hope that whoever replies on behalf of the Government will say from that Box that no unfair political influence has
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been used by Jews in the House or in the country to embarrass the Palestinian situation. There has been no attempt in my knowledge to arouse the passions of the Jews in Great Britain on this issue at any time in any direction. In fact, there are many Jews, I am sorry to say, who are members of the party represented by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), and his party views on this question would not be exactly described as pro-Jewish, and yet I think the right of all Jews to think that the political philosophy of that party is the right one for them.
It seems to me that three-quarters of the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last were in favour of the Amendment moved from these benches, and his conclusions seemed to be out of all perspective with the arguments that he used. Even those arguments will have proved on the whole that, if influence has been used by either Arab or Jew, the effect of such influence has been in favour of the Arabs rather than of the Jews. That is admitted by the Report, and to some extent by the Secretary of State himself. What is the problem? We start off with promises made during the War to both Arabs and Jews. On this question I am fortified by the statement of the Secretary of State and also by the White Paper of 1922, that there never was a promise to the Arabs of anything west of the Jordan. The Secretary of State himself spent ten minutes or so arguing why the Arabs had no case as regards a promise of that kind. He went on to say that the Jews had no right to argue that Palestine was to be given to them as a national home. The promise was that there should be a national home for the Jews in Palestine. I have no desire to quibble about phrases or to discuss whether it is true or not that the Jews all the world were led to believe that substantially Palestine was to be their home. But I think that only during recent years have those who have made pronouncements for the Government on this subject found this way out of breaking their promise to the Jews.
Even taking the Secretary of State on his own word, and admitting, for the sake of argument, the statement made by successive Governments that their real intention was not that the whole of Palestine was to be a national home for the Jews, but that there was to be a

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national home for them in Palestine, will the Government say that a fifth of what is now known as Palestine is four square with the Balfour Declaration, and is in accordance with the promises that they have made from time to time? Are they contending that what we are being offered in the Report is a fair outcome of those promises and declarations? It has already been clearly shown that the Arabs have received large areas of land in some places with complete independence. I am making no complaint about that, nor do I think that the Jews as a whole have ever made any complaint about it. When we compare Arab aspirations in what is now known as Palestine with what has already been given them and the suggestions made in the Report, I believe anyone who looks at the question fairly and without bias will agree that the Jews have a right to say that preference has been given to the Arabs in this matter, and that, if it is a question of broken promises, it is clear that those promises have been broken mainly on the side of the Jews. It seems to me that the Secretary of State has proved quite conclusively something with which we are all inclined to agree, that the Government have failed to carry out the Mandate. They have failed to do what they set out to do. He gave a good many reasons why it is now impossible to carry out the Mandate. The principal one was the intense nationalism of the Arabs. Would it be unfair to suggest that the responsibility for the growth of that intense nationalism lies on the shoulders of the Government owing to their failure strongly enough to carry out the Mandate entrusted to their care?
Mr. Crossley: Is it a blameworthy thing to be fond of your country?
Mr. Frankel: It is because I am fond of my country that I am very careful that its reputation should not be sullied, and in this matter the reputation of England is being sullied. It is admitted on all sides that the administration was responsible for these outbursts of intense nationalism and of violence. That has been demonstrated in more than one speech already, even by the right hon. Gentleman on the Government Bench, in a much stronger way than I could possibly do. I think that case is admitted.
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The Secretary of State gave very good and cogent reasons why the Mandate was difficult to work. Why are we not presented to-day with a Government declaration asking the League of Nations to revise the Mandate and change it in such respects as they think will make it work properly in the future if, in itself, it is a cause of the troubles with which we are faced? We are discussing the Report because of the violence that broke out last year—bcause of the Arab insurrction. That is why we are considering the Report of the Commission which was set up to consider that, and not the question of partition. Yet we are faced with the idea of those who wrote this very able Report, both historically and with regard to the facts that, in the final part, when coming to the end of their labours, they seem not to be able to recommend anything which would give peace in Palestine except partition. I want to emphasise the point which was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), that no evidence has been taken upon partition. Those who produced this Report were not asked to produce a report upon partition, but the conclusion is quite definite. If there should be partition, then let Arab and Jewish opinion, which knows very much more about it than we do, come and give evidence as to the possibility of partition.
This House to-day is being asked to take a very grave step. It is not, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook said, a frame without a picture, something nebulous, a frame into which no picture can be put later on. We have the Report which gives us a map, which has been criticised already very much in this House, and which is very easy of criticism. I do not want to repeat the statements already made, but, as far as the Government are concernd, it is clear that they do not consider that it is a frame without a picture. In the first phrase of the White Paper they say:
"His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom … have considered the unanimous Report of the Palestine Royal Commission. They find themselves in general agreement with the arguments and conclusions of the Commission."
That, in my contention, is not a frame without a picture. It is a very substantial picture and one which most of us do not like looking at very long.

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I want to say a word or two, also, about the general effect which these matters have upon the whole question of the persecution of the Jews in the world. If this form of partition, or a form of partition substantially similar to the one which is now suggested to this House, is agreed to, it must be made clear to Jews all over the world, to the 3,500,000 approximately in Poland, the 800,000 in Rumania and the 300,000 in Germany—I mention these three particular countries for obvious reasons—that, as long as their lifetime is concerned, and for a time which it is impossible now to measure, any hope of being able to leave the countries which are persecuting them now, and which from all the evidence we are able to get will persecute them even more as time goes on, has gone. The message comes to them not from Germany, not from Poland, and not from a dictatorship country, but from the British House of Commons, from this country, that, as far as all these Jews are concerned, the hopes that they may have had of being able to go to Palestine are now ended and they must, if any hope is to be given to them, start all over again and look somewhere else in trying to find some other place in which their own life and their own methods of living can be built up.
I do not desire in this House to illustrate the great work that has been done by the Jews in Palestine. I think that it is admitted on both sides of the House. The great work that has been done in a few years in Palestine has proved the Jewish case completely that they can successfully colonise a country in such a way as to be a source of admiration to the rest of the world. In my view it is not an indissoluble problem to get Arabs and Jews to live peacefully in Palestine if certain things are granted. First of all, one has to recognise the great control and power held by the land-owning Arab class and by certain very important Arab families in Palestine. We also have to recognise that, as far as the large majority of the Fellaheen are concerned, they are illiterate and have not the same opportunities as the Jewish workers in Palestine, of organisation and of controlling their own destinies, or of having any voice in their own destinies at all. Here, again, if this partition is agreed to by the House of Commons, it will be placing for an immeasurable length of time many hundreds of thousands of Arab peasants into almost feudal hands, when their salvation might
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more easily have been found side by side with Jewish workers in Palestine. Efforts in that direction have already been made, and in some respects not without success, but how can they continue and succeed when poisonous propaganda is being poured into them not only from inside Palestine and from Arab sources, but from European sources?
I would warn this House of the possibility—and I think that it is a danger which will perhaps be more readily seen by His Majesty's Government, and it is their responsibility rather than that of hon. Members on these benches—of Palestine becoming a centre of international intrigue. May I remind the House of the guns which it is already known that Mussolini has sent in the past to the Arabs? These guns may be sent to the Arabs to-day in order to fight against the Jews, and they may be sent to the Arabs to-morrow for some other reason of which the British House of Commons will have to take notice. I sincerely hope, therefore, that before you come to an irrevocable decision on this important question, and before you decide upon a partition which at its best can only take a very small proportion of the Jews which it was at one time hoped on all sides that Palestine would be able to take—before you decide upon such an important Measure of that sort, I feel that established Jewish opinion should be brought before this House, so that we may not hastily come to a decision which we may regret afterwards, but endeavour to see whether other solutions of this very important problem can be found.
7.39 p.m.
Sir Arnold Wilson: If there are any Arabs listening to this Debate in the public galleries, or to the broadcast summary, their depression must have been increased by the speeches which have followed the thoroughly impartial and reasonable statement of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. I have spent 19 years of my life in Arab-speaking countries. I have fought against Arabs, and I have fought alongside them, but I have never before ventured to address this House upon any matter in connection with the Near or Middle East, because the criticisms I should have been tempted to make might sometimes appear to reflect upon those former colleagues of mine or upon those intellectual giants in Whitehall under whom I have had the

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honour to serve. But to-day I feel free to do so for the first time, for the Royal Commission has endorsed the severest criticisms of reasonable and impartial men on the policy that has been pursued, in good faith, but wrongly, as many of us believe, in Palestine.
I endorse much of which has been said in praise of the Royal Commission's Report, but I should like to draw attention to the magnificent series of handbooks, produced from 1917 to 1918 by the late Sir George Prothero, once a Member of this House, and later Lord Ernle; to these handbooks the Royal Commission themselves owe much. Now that Lord Ernle, in the fulness of time, has passed to his rest, it is right that some tribute should be paid to him and to his brilliant band of historians. When the Royal Commission, on page 32 of their Report, say that in 1922 little was apparently known about the size and character of the population of Palestine, they are not doing full justice to the Foreign Office for what the Foreign Office did. Nor do I feel able entirely to absolve the Royal Commission for not having dealt somewhat more fully with the McMahon letters. They observe at page 20 that it is sufficient for the purposes of this Report to say that the British Government has never accepted the Arab case. I believe that they could have made a case such as would conclusively have proved the bona fides of the Government in this matter.
It is rather remarkable, too, that the Royal Commission have devoted only six lines to the origin and history of the Balfour Declaration. There, again, I am convinced that a full and impartial survey of the history of that document would have done much good. It is not good history to omit to mention the fact that great Jews like Mr. Morgenthau, Secretary to the Treasury in America, and the late Mr. Edwin Montague in this country, were profoundly nervous of the eventual repercussions of Zionism. When Mr. Balfour went in 1916 to America, he met there Jews who abused Zionism as hotly as those who espoused it. The conclusions of the Royal Commission in this regard are not entirely consistent with Mrs. Dugdale's account in her Life of Lord Balfour, and they are quite inconsistent with the Memoirs of the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the
2292
Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). I feel that we still do require something like a full historical survey, and I am convinced that we should have no reason to regret a complete publication under the auspices of Professors Gooch and Temperley of these documents. The Commissioners have said little about the origin of Zionism. The whole attitude of many Jews towards Zionism has been completely changed by the protean forms of persecution which have arisen abroad since then. Zionism was, in the minds of many, the cult of a shrine such as the Academy and Ambulatory of Plato should be to those who love philosophy, respect Plato and admire Socrates. Zion was to be a centre, a Mecca, a place of pilgrimage, as it is for Christians, but not a place of Jewish refuge. It is our misfortune that there has arisen in Poland, where there are about 3,500,000 Jews, in Rumania, and in Germany, and elsewhere, a racial movement which makes the ideal of Zionism as originally understood since Lord Shaftesbury espoused it, quite impossible and impracticable. When the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Frankel) speaks of Poland receiving a message from the House of Commons not to look to Palestine for hope or refuge it should be remembered that the annual net increase of Jews in Poland is at least 50,000 a year, and that there is, therefore, no hope that Zionists as defined by the Oxford English dictionary "A Jew who believes in modern forms of colonisation in Palestine" can ever meet the needs of the large fraction of the 16,000,000 Jews in the world who are not wanted at home. They must find another solution. Gladly would I see His Majesty's Government and other civilized Governments of the world co-operating in a new and treater Commission to find some fresh colonies of refuge for those Jews who are being extruded from Poland and elsewhere. Palestine at its largest would do more than absorb 10 per cent. of the surplus from Europe alone.
The problem of Jewry is one thing and the problem of Palestine is another. It is hard for us, separated as we are by nearly 20 years from the Balfour Declaration, to realise the atmosphere in which it was given and prepared. I am aware of it to some extent, for at the time I was in the harness of office and had the privilege of discussing Zionism with the late

2293
Edwin Montague. I heard him discuss it passionately as well as dispassionately. To those who blame the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs and the late Lord Balfour for lack of honesty, lack of foresight and lack of knowledge, the former may well say, in the words ascribed by Plutarch to Cato the Censor:
"It is hard for me who have lived with one generation to have to make my defence to those of another."
It is hard for us to understand the feelings and motives, the hopes and fears of the actors on the political stage in those unhappy days.
I do not wish to deal in detail with the criticisms of the Government's proposals which have been made in preceding speeches, but the speech of the right hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) did arouse a certain amount of resentment in my heart. His aspersions and those of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) on the lack of sincerity and whole-heartedness on the part of British officials in Palestine was unfair. If they were not wholehearted it is because the average Britisher, whoever he may be, and for that matter the average official who has been long enough in harness, finds it exceedingly difficult to carry on his duties unless he feels convinced that he is able to do justice. He would often sooner resign, even at great financial loss, than be an instrument of injustice. The conditions under which the officials were working in Palestine were really impossible. They afforded them no spiritual satisfaction or feelings of duty done. As for the suggestion that they naturally dislike Jews and like Arabs, let me say that I have lived long enough among Arabs to know that that is a picturesque travesty of the real facts. In Mesopotamia, of which I had the honour to be Acting Civil Commissioner for four years, there were more Jews than were to be found in the whole of Palestine. We had over 120,000 Jews, and 3¼ million Arabs, and no anti-Semitic troubles.
Commander Locker-Lampson: You did not have Mussolini subsidising anarchy.
Sir A. Wilson: That insinuation is not borne out by the Report of the Royal Commission. Ill-feeling between Jew and Arab is deepseated and far older than Mussolini. The dislike of the Arab for the Zionist is not the dislike of the Arab
2294
for the Jew but the dislike of the Arab for the foreigner who differs from him in customs and in language more than the Arabs differ from us in this country. There is a profound gulf between Jew and Arab, deeper than Government can bridge. That is why I believe that partition, little as I like it, is absolutely inevitable.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness talked about millions of leaflets and posters about Zionism being scattered over Poland and Germany during the War, and he said that this helped to win the War. I do not believe it. It is a foul libel upon the Jews of Europe to suggest that they were not loyal to their respective countries. The German Jew stood by Germany and the Polish Jew by Poland and the English Jew by England and the suggestion that we diverted them from their allegiance by the bribe of Zionism is no compliment to them. There is no greater injury that can be done to the Jews as a whole than to suggest that they can in ordinary circumstances be appealed to apart from the nation in which they have lived for 10, 12 or 14 generations.
The right hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland made much play with the telegram of condemnation in the "Times" from the Prime Minister of Iraq. If that message had been in the form of a communication from the Prime Minister of Iraq to His Majesty's Ambassador for the information of His Majesty's Government, I should not have regretted its use. But these obiter dicta, given in haste to journalists, anxious for copy, in the heat of summer in one of the hottest cities of Arabia, should not be used as political weapons on the floor of this House. The underlying difficulties in this matter are personal and individual. Personal antagonisms, dynastic rivalries, and individual prejudices are in the background, and we do ill to make use of these deplorable domestic differences in order to make a political point.
Once the opportunity is given to the representatives of the Arab States to consider this question of partition at leisure I do not doubt that a fairly substantial measure of concurrence will be forthcoming. I believe in partition because it is inevitable. I also believe in it because I see in it a better prospect of

2295
justice to both sides than one can hope to obtain by the present state of an indissoluble marriage of incompatible spouses.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland asked us not to blame Poland. I wish he had equal sympathy with His Majesty's Government. We have had as difficult a task all these years in Palestine and we have done our best. I take it ill that he should be urging delay and a further reference to Parliament of the Report of the Royal Commission which says that if there is one point on which the Arabs are more convinced than another, it is that they are not on equal terms with the Jews in putting their case before the people of this country. As Burke said to his constituents in Bristol in 1780:
"I beg leave just to hint to you that we may suffer very great detriment by being open to every talker. It is not to be imagined how much of service is lost from spirits full of activity, full of energy, who are constantly pressing forward, to great and capital objects, when you oblige them to be continually looking back whilst they are defending one service, they defraud you of a hundred. Applaud us when we run; console us when we fall; cheer us when we recover; but let us press on—for God's sake, let us press on."
The Government are being urged by Members opposite and by the Royal Commission to resume what we may call strong Government in Palestine—further measures against the Press and against anybody who attempts to disturb the public peace. I see from the "Times" that the Mufti of Jerusalem is in trouble again, and there seems a likelihood that it may be decided to arrest him. I am far from wishing to interfere with the discretion of the Government and its representatives on the spot, but I suggest that there is still time for a brief respite, a locus penitentiae, before we make what is already a very difficult situation perhaps almost incurable by arresting a leader of one side. I say this with reluctance, but I have had the responsibility myself in such a case. I have had a revolution on my hands and have been compelled to arrest and deport ring-leaders who through their extremism had made any moderate expression of opinion dangerous, if not impossible; but I did not find those measures to be, in general, successful. Discontent that is based on sentiment and race is hydra-headed, and little as we
2296
have reason to admire the statesmanship or moderation shown by the Mufti of Jerusalem in the past, he is a recognised leader, and I hope His Majesty's Government will go all the way possible to find some via media short of his arrest and removal.
We have heard a good deal about the condition of Palestine, the difficulties of these three States, and the absurdities, inconsistencies and complications that are bound to arise from the proposals outlined by the Royal Commission. I do not believe that they are insuperable. Good will is more likely to follow on this Report, when they have had a short time to consider it, than from any other action we can take. It is possible to get men of good will to work together if there is a third party over them—the mandatory Power—and I am confident that, in the long run, provided we do not attempt a compulsory transfer of population, the thing will work. There are 260,000 Arabs to be transferred and perhaps 2,000 Jews. The Jews would do well to give the fullest assurances to the Arabs who wish to stay in the Jewish State. I believe many will stay. I do not think that nationalism has got to that point that they will willingly leave their ancestral acres. The Arabs would do well to give the fullest assurance to the Jews who would like to remain, and I believe that many will do so. The two peoples are in some degree complementary to each other. I do not believe that every Arab in the Jewish State potentially excludes a Pole. Population makes work and work makes population, and we can considerably increase the Jewish population in the main area allocated to the Jewish State without any great transference of population.
Let me deal with one more point. Propagandists, with the utmost good faith, are always pointing out the vast improvements which the Jews have made in Palestine, and comparing them with the miserable state of Palestine before they came there. I have lived in Arab-speaking countries, in Persia and Turkey, and I can testify that just as great and beneficent changes have taken place where there were neither Jews nor Britishers. Persia has advanced just as much in the last 20 years as any country. So also have Bagdad and Mosul. Since Iraq has attained sovereignty they have made great progress. There is as much progress in Haifa as in Basra, as

2297
much in Bagdad as in Jerusalem and as much in Mosul as in Tel-Aviv. Those who have seen Tel-Aviv should go to Ankara and Istanbul, Tehran and Ispahan Kabul and Kandaar.
The Arabs are as capable of development as Englishmen or Persians or Turks. They are not an inferior, unintelligent race, incapable of progress. I know by experience that they are as capable of progress, as any race in Asia. They do not accept much which we ourselves accept, sometimes questioningly, as being synonymous with progress and civilisation. They do not regard a miniature Piccadilly set down in the desert as a mark of progress, nor for that matter do the best Jews. They know that progress means something deeper, and that westernization is not necessarily true progress. From all this welter of misery and tragedy I believe something better will arise, but for the next 20 years we have to look forward to an accentuation and development of nationalism; once we can give that its fullest scope we shall see the rise of good will. In Bagdad 20 years ago no Arab would consort with a Turk, no Turk would hesitate to shoot an Arab at sight. The relations between Persians, Turks and Arabs were bitter. Boundary Commissioners had to be heavily escorted to prevent bloodshed. The Arabs of Iraq are now independent, and we have a tripartite non-aggression agreement between Turkey, Persia and Iraq, which is working and may in the future be an important factor. There is no reason why the same thing should not happen in Syria, for Syria, not Palestine is the modern prototype of the living child brought to Solomon. Alexandretta, Lebanon, Latakia, Northern Syria and Damascus, all are separate States. I believe that we shall one day find them all working together as harmoniously as Persia, Iraq and Turkey. Let us look to the good future of man with some faith in it, and some ability to look at the problems of the day without letting our senses blind and bewilder us.
In the words of Emerson:
"We seem to see events forced on us which appear to retard or retrograde the civility of ages. But the world spirit is a strong swimmer, storms and waves will not drown him. The events of this decade are but a day in the history of Asia."
If we let these people stand on their own feet in their own respective areas, peace,
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I am sure, will come soon, and, perhaps sooner than many of us expect it.
8.5 p.m.
Colonel Wedgwood: I congratulate the Arabs on the admirable presentation of their case this afternoon. Their case does not rest on the McMahon correspondence. It should be based on the fact that they are a nationality, as capable as any other European race of developing their own institutions and culture. It is on that basis and on no other that their case should be argued, and it is from that point of view that we should consider these proposals of the Government. The Jews and the Arabs are not the only people who have had a raw deal over this Report. This Parliament has had a raw deal, too. I am not going to speak for the Jews or the Arabs, I want to speak for this Parliament and for our English good name. For the last two years Parliament has been accused of causing the trouble in Palestine. The Debate on the immature proposal to set up a legislative council in Palestine has been said to be the source of the evil and the immediate cause of the outbreak and trouble in Palestine last year. Immediately that Debate was over information reached the Colonial Office from Palestine, and the Government thereupon set up this Royal Commission to go into the whole question, but they specifically excluded from the Royal Commission any member of this House. We were the guilty parties in having that Debate. The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor was perhaps to blame, but for the first time Members of Parliament were excluded from a Royal Commission in order to get a report which should be called impartial.
That was an insult to Parliament. It was the first raw deal we got. Now we have this Report, and Parliament is given one day to decide a question which the Royal Commission took six months to consider. The House of Lords has had two days. There must be at least 50 Members in the House who want to speak on this subject, on the Jewish and Arab side, but they will not have a chance. That is not a proper way to treat Parliament, but it is becoming the way in which the Colonial Office treat Parliament. I think we have very strong ground for demanding that a Joint Select Committee of both Houses should have a chance of considering this scheme of partition in all

2299
its implications. There are questions of finance, transport, boundaries, transportation from one district to another, which are surely matters upon which the House should be consulted before the Colonial Office makes up its mind. We are going away for a four months' Recess and during that time Parliament is helpless. Before that time comes to an end the right hon. Gentleman will get sanctions from the League of Nations. That is purely a formality, for with the British Government behind the proposal there is no other country which is likely to oppose it. When the right hon. Gentleman comes to us again the House of Commons will have had nothing to say, or any opportunity of hearing both sides of the question, a point which was admirably put by the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery).
I think the hon. Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson) put the Arab case perfectly well, though I know that on the Arab side there is more hostility to partition than the hon. Member showed. You have both Arabs and Jews intensely hostile to the scheme and the Government say that they must take the scheme or nothing. This may help to bring the two sides together. A Joint Select Committee hearing all is not only the right thing as far as Parliament is concerned, and will help the Colonial Office to come to a sound and lasting conclusion, but may also be a means of bringing the two parties together and avoid the necessity of partition altogether. From the English point of view we do not want the whole world to say, "You have made a mess of it in Palestine, and now you are running away." We do not want the people in Palestine to say, "After having taken charge of the country you have thrown us over." What are the Christians in Ramleh saying? They will have Treaty rights as minorities, but there is no Christian in Palestine who is not opposed to partition because he is afraid of getting from the Transjordania Government what the Assyrians got from the Iraq Government. The Assyrians were also protected by a Treaty, but were shot down by the Iraq Government with British soldiers looking on.
Is it conceivable that in these circumstances Christians and Moslem Arabs in Palestine are likely to welcome
2300
a scheme of partition? It is all very well to agitate against the British Government. There is no better cry than that of nationalism, but when it comes to losing British protection and being transferred to another government it is a different thing altogether. Under the British Government Christian Arabs get their fair share of government, but they do not think they will get their fair share under a Moslem Stale. They may be wrong, but at any rate we should hear their views because they are people who have put their faith in us. There is another large section of the population in Palestine who may require at our hands that their interests should be considered, and that is the Fellaheen. The Report is clear that most of them are tenant farmers, and during the last 15 years they have had a certain amount of generous treatment from the British Government. When crops have failed they have been supplied with seed, they have had the benefit of a system of taxation which does not depend on farming the revenue, they have had better health administration and also education. An Oriental government would not have given the same protection against the landlords or supplied them with seed when their crops failed. It certainly would not have given them the communications and transport facilities which they have.
What is to be done with them now? They were not mentioned by the hon. Member for Hitchin. No hon. Member has considered them. They are not considered in the Report, and nobody at the Colonial Office has considered them. What we are doing is not merely to transfer 225,000 Arabs from Jewish territory into Arab territory; what we are considering is the transfer of at least 500,000 Metayer peasants into the complete control of the effendi landlord class who will rule from Transjordan over Palestine. Nationalism is all very well, but for those 500,000 peasant cultivators in Palestine, their bread and butter, their livelihood, comes before politics. They will be transferred from the alien control of Great Britain to the control of the effendi, which was efficient enough in Turkish times in extracting from the poor the last penny the poor could pay.
There, too, our good name will suffer. The condition of those people is at least

2301
50 per cent. better than that of the fellaheen in Egypt on the one side and Syria on the other. Those people are to be forcd back, after 15 years of British rule, under a rule which is clearly more dangerous to them than British rule. The fellaheen are the aboriginals, dark coloured people; the effendi are practically white Syrians. When we realise that in the new Transjordan State there will be the same agrarian troubles and the same method of putting down those troubles as in India and elsewhere, we may well say that the Government might have consulted Parliament before taking that step. The Royal Commission did not take a word of evidence on the subject on which they have made the recommendation. It is amazing that the whole of the side of the poor in this question has been neglected.
There is, however, a far more serious matter even than putting the fellaheen under the control of their landlords. It is the extraordinary proposal to transfer at least 100,000 cultivators from Jewish territory, where their homes are and where they have worked for generations, to buy land somewhere else, and to take them there and dump them. It is treated in the Report, without the Commission having taken one word of evidence on the possibility, as though it were a natural and normal thing to do. If the Commission had had any knowledge of recent history, they would not have made that recommendation. Reference has been made to what happened in Crete. It was decided to deport from Crete that unfortunate Mohammedan minority, people who were of the same blood as the rest of the Cretans, but who unfortunately had the wrong religion. Turkey and Greece together decided that they would deport Cretans from Crete, and send them to Asia Minor. The unfortunate Mohammedans begged to be allowed to stay in Crete, and even went so far as to offer to become Christians if only they might be allowed to stay, but it was not felt that they would make good Christians.
Sir A. Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to Crete. I suggest that the Panjat Canal Colonies are a much fairer parallel. There is also in progress a great transfer of labour from one end of Iraq to another. Such an administrative operation in a small coun-
2302
try is a very different thing from taking people from Crete to Asia Minor, and 1937 is not 1910.
Colonel Wedgwood: A difference in expense, too, between 1937 and 1910, but there is at the present time a good deal of transference of labour going on in this country, and those who are being transferred do not like it. Whatever one may think about the transference of these 100,000 cultivators, for goodness' sake let the people who are to be transplanted have some say in the matter before their fate is sealed. It is not right for the Colonial Office to dictate to us. I think the House of Commons is a better guardian of British honour and a better guardian of humane principles than the Colonial Office, which handed over the Assyrians to the butcher and provided no accommodation for the Armenians when they were being expelled from their country. Those are questions for us to consider. I am not speaking from the point of view of the Jews or that of the Arabs, but from the point of view of England's good name.
Let me pass from that to another matter. If the partition scheme goes through, how on earth are we to defend it? I do not mean defending it by argument, for the noble Lord is capable of defending anything by argument. How are we to defend the territory? I know very well the argument that the Noble Lord will make to-night. He will say, "What is your alternative? Are you going to have the Guards in Palestine in perpetuity to keep the unfortunate Arabs quiet?" Will not that be his argument? Yet this partition scheme will call for exactly the same thing. There will be 200 miles of completely indefensible boundaries. There will be the police and all sorts of authorities located at all sorts of different towns. There will be the hungry population of the hills. It will be remembered how the Assyrians and then the Persians came down on Babylon from the hills. The natural tendency of the population in the hills is to raid the country below. Look at the passion for looting which still exists in Europe! With the farms of the Jews in the valley and the Arabs hungry in the hills, does anybody suppose that there will not be continual raids? Raiders now come in from Syria; they come 50 miles into the coun-

2303
try, and carry off cattle under the eyes of the British police. Do hon. Members think that that will not happen in future? Standards in that part of the world are different from what they are in this. Scotsmen do not think of raiding England now; they come over and exploit us in other ways. But in that part of the world, people almost take in raiding with their mother's milk.
There are villages in Palestine—there was one on the road from Jaffa to Jerusalem—known as robber villages where they have robbed for centuries and where they are robbing still, and in most of the troubles of Palestine the passion for loot plays a considerable part. I think we are likely to have these raids going on, and the Jews are not likely to stand those raids without following out the good old Judean maxim of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." The raids will inevitably, and, I think, justifiably, be followed by retaliation, and the drawback to retaliation is that it will lead to war. There will be an interchange of notes, there will be desperate pacific efforts by the Noble Lord opposite, the "volunteers" will begin to come in from Italy and Germany, the guns will begin to come in through Gaza and the Egyptian frontier—and then you are "for it."
We shall have the unpleasant duty of stopping what we should never have allowed to begin and the expense to this country will be as great as it would have been under any other solution while the disgrace to our honour is likely to be much greater. The people of this country will hardly be found willing to go to great expense to stop these two races in Palestine from fighting each other. There is no chance of saving money, if that is your object, and there is no chance of saving British lives, if that is your object, by adopting this partition and abdication. You have here the recommendations of this Royal Commission. How are you going to carry them out? I wish to remark incidentally that in this Report we have the admirable statement, made, I think, for the first time in any official document, that immigrants to a country make more work than they take. I am particularly glad to have that placed on record. I wonder whether even we of the Labour party realise that every immigrant into this country gives work to the clothier, the transport worker and
2304
the food producer, and that the more immigrants come into a country the greater its economic absorptive capacity becomes.
Earl Winterton: Where is that statement in the Report?
Colonel Wedgwood: On page 85. The passage is:
"Secondly, so far from reducing 'economic absorptive capacity,' immigration increased it."
That is perfectly true. We all know that it must be true but there at last it is in print in an official document—the direct negation of the idea that you can increase prosperity by limiting immigrants. The more immigrants come in the greater the demand on the services and work of the people who are already there. They make work for themselves and prosperity increases. Not so long ago, American cities used regularly to boost their population figures in order to show that their trade and prosperity were increasing. But now, according to the neo-Malthusian doctrine which serves for economics in Government Departments, the smaller the population the more prosperous the country; the fewer people who come into this country the more prosperous we shall be, and the fewer people go to Palestine the more prosperous Palestine will be. It is a damnable heresy, but thank goodness it has now been refuted here. The Royal Commission may not have consisted of Members of Parliament, but some of them at any rate knew some economics.
But what about these other matters? Are we going to carry out the recommendations of the Commission on security, on justice, on land settlement, on British officials in lieu of Palestinian district officers, judges, and public prosecutors? Are we going to carry out their recommendations about the police and about disarmament: Above all, are we going to carry out their recommendations about the Mufti of Jerusalem? Page after page of this Report is devoted to proving that he has been the source of all the trouble.
Earl Winterton indicated dissent.
Colonel Wedgwood: Shall I read the Report?
Earl Winterton: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would read paragraph 66 on page 204.
Colonel Wedgwood: I prefer to read page 140. Is there any objection? It says:
"If one thing stands out clear from the record of the Mandatory administration it is the leniency with which Arab political agitation even when carried to the point of violence and murder has been treated."
Earl Winterton: I would like the right hon. Gentleman also to read paragraph 66 on page 204.
Colonel Wedgwood: I prefer the paragraph which states:
"Such a situation could in our opinion only be remedied by the introduction of martial law."
I could give many other paragraphs. I can give the Noble Lord tit-for-tat with about 100 of them. But to come down to more modern times, this subject was debated yesterday in another place and my Lord Dufferin speaking for the Government was very firm. There was even less concession from him than I anticipate from the Noble Lord opposite. The "Times" picked upon his speech and said: "Here at last we have a firm statement." Let me give the exact words. In a leading article patting the Government on the back for partitioning Palestine the "Times" referred to
"Lord Dufferin's firm statement on behalf of the Government that 'the day of the wrecker was done with.'"
I turned up the speech to discover that "wrecker" referred to Arab or Jew. I had hoped that it might include the administration of Palestine. But believe me or believe me not, when I turned up the OFFICIAL REPORT I found that the sentence about the wrecker had vanished altogether. The sentence which gave such satisfaction to the "Times" appears to have been censored out by the Colonial Office when they went through the Noble Marquess's speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and there is no reference to "wreckers" of any sort—no firmness there. What about the Government? Are they going to do anything to implement these very strong recommendations and to meet the very strong criticisms that have been made of the present administration? If that were done, I do not believe that the Jews would want to partition Palestine in order to get their Jewish State. As long as you have a Government which has got more and more feeble and anaemic, a Government which has refused to allow the troops who
2306
were sent there to take charge, a Government which would not even allow the police to function when the troubles started, there is no remedy. How much longer is that form of Administration going on? We are told in the Report that it has failed completely, that the policy of conciliation has failed. Are we continuing the policy, are we continuing the man whose policy has failed, and are we going to leave him in such a position that he can still force the Jews to take any scheme of partition in order to escape from an Administration which has worked successfull against the Mandate for 15 years and has now defeated Parliament?
8.36 p.m.
Colonel Clifton Brown: I am bound to say that I thought the last remark of the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) was most unfair. The Administration in Palestine may have made mistakes, and the High Commissioner may have carried out leniency to the extreme, but anyhow he has carried out what he considers to be the spirit of the Mandate to the uttermost limit, and it seems to me to be ungenerous, when they have been having a very difficult and trying time, that we in this House should endeavour to run them down.
Colonel Wedgwood: Has the hon. and gallant Member looked at page 363 of the Report, where the Royal Commission speak of the sympathetic attitude of some of the officials as showing that the British determination to implement the Balfour Declaration is not sincere?
Colonel Brown: I have personal knowledge of many of the officials out there, and I know that their one ambition has been to build up an efficient and loyal Civil Service in the spirit of the Civil Service. It is only a small Service, it is not easy, and it takes time, and I do not think we are justified in making attacks on the High Commissioner or the civil servants, who are doing their best in difficult circumstances. But we expect that from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, and his ideas of fairness are perhaps a little bit odd. He started by saying what a splendid Debate we have had, that we have heard all sides, those of the Arabs, the Jews, and so on. Actually, we have had four speeches, excluding that of the Colonial Secretary, every one of which has been on the Jewish side, and we have only heard my hon.

2307
Friend the Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson) on the Arab side. Four for the Jews versus one for the Arabs is what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman might consider a really fair Debate on both sides. Is it surprising that some of us in this House have got together in order to try to put the point of view of the Arab side? The Arabs are afraid that their views are not voiced in this House, as past Debates have shown that only one or two Members have given tongue to the Arab side, and the effect in Palestine has been most serious. It is not good for this House either that we should hear only one side of the case. This House would soon lose all its authority and would no longer be an impartial body. If that is to be the way in which the Jewish case is to be heard in this House, what is the good of suggesting the appointment of a Select Committee, as the Amendment does? The Arabs themselves would say, "Well, it will be four to one against us, so how can we expect fairness to come out of that?"
I know perfectly well that the official Arabs, so to speak, in Palestine at present do not approve of partition, but I for one give it and the Government's method of immediate action my warm support. I am in favour of partition, not because I like it—all who know Palestine would rather do without it—but because I can see no other alternative at the present time. There were suggestions put forward in another place yesterday, there have been alternatives put forward in the Press, and I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) put some forward in his speech this evening, but no alternative, in my view, is any good to-day unless it comes with the willing consent of both parties. The Government themselves can adopt no alternative. They have their one line which they have adopted, and they must stick to it, but if the Arabs and the Jews outside will get together and will make a genuine agreement which can be trusted, if both sides will give us pledges that they will honourably implement such an agreement, another situation will be brought about, and perhaps then Palestine as one unit might be saved; but until that moment comes, I for one do not ask the Government to deviate by one jot or tittle from the course which they are pursuing.
2308
All these alternative schemes and the Amendment which is before the House would mean further delay. Anyone who knows the Eastern mind knows how it hates coming to any rapid decision. An Arab, one knows quite well, puts off, in conversation or whatever it may be, coming to the point until the last minute. All the Eastern races will refuse to face the facts, if they can, until the last possible moment. Therefore, is it not right for the Government to go straight ahead and, so to speak, compel them to face the fact earlier than they would do of their own accord? All that I would say is that it is all those who are really standing out for all or nothing, the extremists on both sides, who desire delay, because they feel that every moment's delay means that something may turn up in order that their claims may be established a little better. That is another reason why the Government action in going to Geneva quickly should be supported.
I think it might be mentioned in this House that the Royal Commission, which has made some very remarkable findings, came out entirely in favour of the Arabs on many of them. The first grievance of the Arabs was that the Mandate was quite unworkable and impossible. The Royal Commission has blown the Mandate sky high, and the Arabs, therefore, were justified in their first grievance. The Arabs complained about immigration, on which the Royal Commission find that instead of immigration being limited according to the economic capacity of the country, there must be a super-political limit imposed on it; and it is limited to 12,000 at the most now. The Arabs have received great justification there from the findings of the Royal Commission. Again, with regard to land, it was always denied by the other side that the Arabs were out of employment and rendered landless by Jewish purchases. Speaking from memory, I think the other side said that of something like 644 who established their claims, only 50 per cent. really wanted land. The Royal Commission found that owing to the restrictions and the way in which the applicants were limited, only a portion of those who registered and made their claim represented those who were rendered landless by Jewish purchases.
I think that the Arabs have been entirely justified when they say that they

2309
cannot trust to promises of many of the politicians and leaders of this country. What has come out more clearly than anything else in the Report is that while we were promising one thing to the Jews we have promised the same thing to the Arabs, and apparently some of our leading people have had another mind about it all the time. In 1922 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), who was the Colonial Secretary, made it plain that those who wished to see Palestine Jewish as England was English were quite wrong, that there was to be a home in Palestine but not of Palestine, and that that home was only to be a centre to which all Jews might look from other parts of the world. Yet we see from the Report of the Royal Commission that he gave evidence and said he fully understood that Palestine might become entirely a Jewish home. The White Paper says that it is to be a centre only, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)—the Prime Minister at that time—have said that at the back of their minds was that the whole of Palestine could become Jewish. Were not the Arabs justified in saying that the promises of some of our people in this country were not entirely to be trusted? These facts ought to be realised. Are we proud of the part we have played towards the Arabs?
When the further steps are taken I hope, seeing that the Arabs have proved themselves right on these four points at least, that some consideration will be given to their views in future. Seeing that they have proved right in the past and that we have paid no attention to them whatever, it would be merely prudent on the part of the Colonial Office to pay a little more attention to their representations when they are talking about the details of this partition scheme. I hope my Noble Friend will bear in mind that in the Jewish area a large block of 125,000 Arabs is to be included on the borders of Syria. It is unfair that a solid block like this should be transferred into the Jewish State. Amongst them are some 10,000 Druse Arabs, from whom I have received hospitality. They are strong admirers of this country and they once asked me to say in the House of Commons that their desire is to become British citizens.
2310
Is it fair that these people, who dislike Jews as much as other Arabs, should because they have been quiet and have not kicked up a row, be turned into citizens of another State which they hate? Is it fair that the Arabs of Acre who are seamen and merchants should be transferred to the plains of Beersheba, or to say that the hill Arabs of North Galilee should make their living in the plains elsewhere? If nothing else could be arranged this block of Arabs should be transferred to Syria rather than to Jewish territory. It seems to be unfair, when you are transferring populations from one area to another, that only 1,250 Jews should be left in the Arab State while 235,000 Arabs should be left in the Jewish State. From that point of view the Arabs are certainly getting the worst of the deal.
I want to turn to the appeals that were made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) on behalf of the Jewish claim to Jerusalem. I fail to understand the exact claim. However sympathetic we may be to their feelings towards that city, it was really a great mistake that we ever made Jerusalem, from the administrative point of view, the capital of the country. There you have the centre of every religious bigot that can be imagined. We have never had a moderate cleric, whatever his religion, in Jerusalem. They have always been extreme. This country had some trouble once, when over at Lambeth the extreme clerics used to interfere in the court and carry on political intrigue; and it got so bad that they had to be transferred to Oxford where they now pursue lost causes without hurting anybody. Members of the House used to talk then of the Archbishop of Canterbury as the Pope across the water. That is an illustration of what has happened in Jerusalem for when you have all these various religions and two alternative seats of Government in the one city the amount of intrigue and difficulty for any Government is unbelievable.
I should say, therefore, that from an administrative point of view the Government would be wise to stick to their mandated area there, and not let the new Jewish city be excluded. The sentimental appeal to the Jews to make headquarters of the new State in Jerusalem, could not be resisted and you would then have two Governments

2311
in the city with all the disadvantages from which administration has suffered in the past. As one who is a friend of Arabs I would say that I want the Government to hold the scales fairly. I do not ask them to give favour to one side, but I ask them not to give favour to the other side. If the Arabs are convinced that the scales are going to be held fairly, regardless of any pressure that may take place in this House, the Government can be as firm as they like in handling the situation, and my belief is that they will have the friendship of Arabs in the future as of old.
8.54 p.m.
Mr. de Rothschild: The hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down has pointed out that in the Debate that has already taken place there has been a preponderance of speeches in favour of the Jewish cause. I am surprised at this complaint about the partiality of this House. I hope that because I am making a speech the hon. Member will not accuse me of partiality. I cannot believe that he is right or is justified in accusing of partiality men who have been many years in this House and many of whom have occupied responsible positions, one being the actual predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate to-day. I myself may say that after the initial speech made by the right hon. Gentleman I was very hesitant whether I should get up. I did not like the imputation that the Arabs in Palestine would resent the interference in this Debate of a Jewish Member of the House of Commons; and, on the other hand, I thought it was very unfair of the right hon. Gentleman to lay any kind of blame on any Member of this House, whatever his religion may be, because he is taking a point of view. I believe that every Member in this House should be free to express his own views, and that he should express the views of the people whom he represents, as much as his own. If he represents views which are his own I should expect him to state that that was so.
I am not going to break a further lance with the hon. and gallant Member for Hexham (Colonel Brown). I shall meet several of the points he has made in the course of my speech. One point I wish to touch upon at once, and that
2312
concerns Jerusalem. The hon. and gallant Member urged the Government not to give way, to any sentimental feelings on this question. He has pointed out that Jerusalem is at the present time the capital of Palestine, in the administrative sense, and that the Jewish State, if it is established, will also seek its capital in the new Jerusalem, which lies outside the old city where are the Holy Places; and he seemed to suggest that that was a sufficient reason to exclude the 76,000 Jews who are in that city from the ambit of the Jewish State which it is proposed to set up.
I am glad to take this opportunity of expressing my thanks and my gratitude to another person, a more important person than the hon. and gallant Member, who urged on the Government yesterday, in another place, that Jerusalem, the new city, where the Hebrew University is extending its welcome to men and women of the whole world, where a new spiritual revival is taking place, should be included in the Jewish State. That person was the Archbishop of Canterbury, and I am very pleased to be able to express to him my personal gratitude. As I said before, I was doubtful whether I would address the House, but I was persuaded to do so because, on arriving here, I got a telegram which I hope the House will allow me to read:
"Jewish service men rallied to British flag in response to call of Balfour Declaration from all corners of the world. Ex-members of the 38th, 39th and 40th Battalions Royal Fusiliers who fought in Palestine and Transjordan, also ex-members of the Zionist Corps which fought in Gallipoli, beg you make a very full and bitter protest before the House at faith broken and cruel frustration of Jewish national hopes. Committee of Jewish ex-soldiers in Tel Aviv."
I feel that I am exonerated from any blame for speaking in this House. I am speaking on behalf of men who fought in the cause of Palestine and of Great Britain 20 years ago. However that may be, I propose to speak as objectively as I possibly can, and not to make any party points. I think I know what the feeling of the Jews all over the world is at the present time, and how disappointed they are at the findings of this Commission. The telegram from those ex-service men is only emblematic of this. The tragic disappointment which has been brought about by the publication of this State document has dispelled a most cherished vision, a vision of one country undivided

2313
ranging from "Dan to Beersheba" as the Prime Minister of a former day, the present right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said—a vision of a country where liberty, self-respect and peace would protect them from the harrowing torture of everyday life in other parts of the world. They had set their hopes on such a country where they would be citizens, each with full rights, in their own national home, developing their own national institutions and living in amity with all their neighbours be they Moslems or be they Christians, enjoying the same full rights in the same civilised State, each community protected by freedom and by equality under the law, a law which shows no discrimination on grounds of race or creed. What country was to help the Jews to realise that vision? Throughout the world Jews hoped that it would be Great Britain. Indeed, they were, and still are, deeply grateful to Great Britain for accepting the Mandate, and they will be eternally grateful for what has happened up to now.
Now, the Report states, Great Britain's endeavour has failed, and thus that vision, that ideal, is dissipated. But me, personally, the Report has not persuaded. I do not feel convinced, by any means, that Great Britain undertook an impossible task. The Report has not persuaded me that it was impossible to implement the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate; that it was impossible to provide the national home as it was envisaged by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs in the statement he made to the Commission; that it was impossible to create this national home with the fullest protection for the civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish community. If to-day it is said there has been failure, I can assure the House that I feel very deeply that the responsibility is not with the Jewish people, because I aver, and the Commission bear me out in this, that they have performed their part of the task, which was to populate and develop Palestine. The results which they have achieved have been acknowledged everywhere. They are commended by the Commission in their Report.
To-day we are told that a united Palestine is impossible. The reason for that does not lie with the Jews. I say it lies
2314
with the growth of a nationalist and rebellious spirit among certain Arab elements. The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), who interrupts me, will have plenty of time to answer my speech. I am not trying to indict the whole Arab nation. My hope and my ambition have always been that the Jews and the Arabs should live in complete amity and good understanding. We have had endless difficulties in Palestine because of the leadership of certain men and of the growth of a certain feeling, which has been encouraged by the agitators and has been allowed to go unchecked.
Let me point out that this spirit was directed against the State itself and not mainly against the Jews. It was directed against the Constitution as embodied in the Mandate. That the Commission makes quite clear. An independent nationalist State is one which is equally independent of Jewish interference as of domination by this country. There would have been no Jewish interference if the Arabs had accepted the advances that had been made time and time again by the Jewish leaders, who, over and over again, have asked for a round-table conference, as we have heard to-day. My hope is that such a round-table conference will yet take place. All the difficulties could have been overcome without any severe repression, if sustained economic and social development had been encouraged and law and order had been maintained by the administration. I know that the hon. Member who preceded me defended the administration in Palestine, as it has been defended by other hon. Members. I do not wish to attack the administration or any of the administrators in particular, but I must abide by what appears in the Report, and the Report does show, as indicated already, that the administration failed repeatedly in the elementary duty of maintaining law and order. In the Report we find it stated:
"If one thing stands out clear from the record of the Mandatory administration, it is the leniency with which Arab political agitation, even when carried to the point of violence and murder, has been treated."
I do not want to dwell at length on the maladministration of the country, but I want to say something about a speech which was made in another place yesterday by the representative of the Government, in which it was stated that:

2315
"Many methods, both of persuasion and of violence, have been used by both sides in the past."
That is a statement which was made on behalf of the Government in another place. I am not attempting to quote a report of any speeches. It was a statement which is, to my mind, an outrage on the Jews and to Jewish feelings, especially—
Earl Winterton: I am sorry to have to raise a point of Order. As I understand the Rules of the House, it is not possible for any hon. Member to comment upon a speech made by a Noble Lord in another place, and I want to get the position made clear. In view of what the hon. Member has just said about a Noble Lord in another place, if it is in order to reply to the hon. Gentleman's speech, I shall, of course, do so.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Dennis Herbert): The Noble Lord has exactly stated what was the old Rule, and the only variation from it in recent times has been the permission to refer to a statement in the other place when made as an official statement of Government policy. It is, therefore, clear that the hon. Member, though in order at first, was in his last sentences getting on to dangerous ground, because he was dealing rather with criticism of a speech than with an announcement by a Government spokesman.
Mr. de Rothschild: I am very much obliged for your Ruling. I none the less state that the announcement made in the other place was very grievous and hurtful to the people throughout Jewry, and if it is within the Rules of the House for the Noble Lord to do so, I hope he will do something in his speech towards correcting that impression. The matter has raised a good deal of feeling in many parts of the world, and will continue to do so unless it is corrected. By such leniency the hopes of the rebels in Palestine have been consistently encouraged, and thus, I believe, a state of rebellion has been fostered. A final culmination of weakness and humiliation was the acceptance of Arab leaders from neighbouring States as mediators in the rebellion. What a humiliation for a mandatory administration, and also for the Government at home. Recent events in Ireland provide a contrast which is far different. Only a
2316
few years ago, Great Britain suggested mediation by representatives of Empire States, to settle a dispute with the Irish Free State. Mr. de Valera suggested the inclusion of representatives from outside the Empire, but, the House will remember, the suggestion was rejected as humiliating. As the suggestion was merely to have a chairman for a conference, what are we to think of the Palestine administration which, in dealing with purely internal disturbances, tolerated the intervention of alien Powers sympathetic to the disaffected elements in the community?
What is the result of the leniency shown by the administration on that occasion? The growth of the power of the agitator and the interference and the conferences constantly taking place between Arabs in Palestine and the Princes in the neighbouring country. We see that in the interview or the telegram of the Prime Minister of Iraq which, we understand, was occasioned only because of the hot weather in Bagdad which excited him to a frenzy. It was a telegram of most minatory character. It threatened anybody who accepted office in the new Arab State of Palestine, honourable as the position no doubt will be, with Moslem excommunication. That is the method which has been adopted by the Mufti, who has over and over again threatened certain individuals in Palestine that they would not be buried in consecrated ground and that they would be ostracised from the Moslem community. Let us realise how dangerous a threat of that kind may be. The Minister who broached this subject first in this House to-day was very reticent in the statement he made that there was no assurance that the threat which has been offered by this Arab Minister has definitely been withdrawn.
The Report does nothing to redress this state of affairs which I have been trying to describe. It goes even further and sees moral righteousness in the rebellion which has taken place. Not only does it concede the Arab demand, but it also concedes the Arab case that the Mandate is unworkable. It may not commend the outbreaks themselves, but it sees a certain moral righteousness in the demands which the Arabs put forward. This is purely and simply a concession to terrorism.

2317
But anyhow, whatever it may be, it has increased tenfold the difficulty of reconciling Arab and Jew, either within one State or in separate neighbouring States. I can only repeat that there is nothing that I myself and my family who have worked in Palestine would wish for more than a good understanding between Arab and Jew; but are we helped by this Report?
This state of affairs has been created by the Commissioners, because they deliberately exceeded their terms of reference, terms of reference which were definitely within the ambit of the Mandate. I am not going to give the House quotations from what was said by Mr. Thomas, by the present Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, and by the present Secretary of State for the Colonies; nor am I going to quote what the Noble Lord said when he asked the present Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs for an explanation of the terms of reference. All I want to say is that the Commission have torn up their terms of reference, they have torn up the Mandate, and they have torn up the Balfour Declaration. They have gone further; they have torn up Palestine. They have torn Palestine into two or three pieces. The National Home has received the same treatment as the bits of paper which represent to-day the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate. To what small and insignificant proportions do we find this national State reduced? It is stated that it is reduced to dimensions smaller than Devonshire. It is smaller than the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair). And yet this small area is to be the only refuge for millions of Jews. I know that the hon. Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson) put forward the hope that some new Royal Commission would also inquire into the difficulties which beset the Jews in Eastern Europe, and would find some solution for the awful position, the terrible plight in which they are at present. That question, however, is outside this discussion, and it is outside present possibilities. At the present time, for the millions of Jews who are subjected to racial persecution throughout Europe there is only this small area of emigration. The Report says so. It says that in this small area immigration may be promoted without let or hindrance. What an irony.
2318
In this partition proposal Palestine itself—the whole country—is very unfairly proportioned. The proposed Jewish territory amounts to one-fifth of the country, yet the proportion of Jews to the whole population is nearly one in three—400,000 Jews and 1,000,000 Arabs; and I gathered, from the speech of the hon. and gallant Member who spoke immediately before me, that he thought that the present arrangement, in which there were so many Arabs still remaining in the Jewish State, should be altered as soon as possible. I will deal with that question a little later. But what do the Arabs say? The representatives of the Arabs in Palestine have said that this Jewish fifth is better than the rest. Why is that so? It is so because it has been better developed by the energy and courage and zeal of the Jews themselves. I should like to read to the House two passages from the Report which have not yet been read. It says:
"In 1914 … the population … eked out a precarious existence, mainly in the hills. On the plains, where life and property were less secure, such irrigation works as had existed in ancient times had long disappeared. Oranges were grown round Jaffa, but most of the maritime belt was only sparsely populated and only thinly cultivated. Esdraelon was for the most part marshy and malarious."
Compare this with what the Report says of Esdraelon to-day. It says:
"Its conversion from a swampy and thinly populated area into a healthy and highly cultivated farm land at the cost of much suffering and mortality from malaria was a particularly fine achievement."
That is not a new thing, because, after all, for nearly 50 years Jews have been going to Palestine, not in great numbers, possibly in driblets, and in those marshy, swampy plains thousands to-day are littering with their bones the shores of Palestine. Is that to be weighed in the balance against them when they are given their new State?
I was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that the suggested boundary is to be considered by the Government merely as a suggestion, and that the Commission themselves recommend that it should be gone into further. But I wish that the Commission had not prejudged this matter in such a very authoritative way. They have entirely left out strategic considerations, a subject which has been freely developed in this House

2319
already to-day. I have only alluded to it because the Minister himself rather discounted and turned aside the dangers of strife and war between the new Arab State and the new Jewish State. He said that the League of Nations would not accept them as States unless the League was persuaded that they were peacefully inclined and would keep to the behests of the Covenant. Will that be the case if only one of these States shows any threatening propensity? Will the League of Nations, for instance, only accord its recognition to one of the two States, and not to the other, because it will only trust one of them? If that be so, is it the case that, whatever the point of view of one side may be, the British Government have made up their minds to set up these States? After the findings of the Commission, which state that Arab and Jew cannot agree, and after the Arab activities, which are flagrant at the present time, we cannot altogether rely on a happy issue. If the scheme of partition itself is a concession to Arab violence, and if it does not satisfy them, they will not regard it as final and as a settlement, but will continue to struggle for Arab sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. The only difference will be that war will come from without as well as from within. The Government have not said who is to be responsible for defending these 200 miles of frontier. That is to be left to be decided later. But I would urge the Noble Lord, when he comes to reply, to make quite certain that Great Britain makes herself responsible for setting up these independent States. Surely, if she does, the frontier should be adequate for defence.
Why is the Negeb excluded? Because it is a desert. We know that the Arab is the son of the desert, but do not let us forget that Colonel Jarvis, who knows the Arab well, who loves the Arab, has said in his notable book, that the Arab is also the father of the desert. Both Jews and Arabs could collaborate in this desert in order to make it once more a fairly flourishing part of the world as it was a few years ago. The Rutenberg concession also is excluded. It is important that it should be free from any attack or interruption in its work. Whereas now it is mandated territory protected by British troops, if it is left outside Jewish
2320
territory I do not know whether the Arab State will be able to protect it.
There is the point of the 225,000 Arabs who will remain in the Jewish State. The Commission say that the partition is in the nature of a surgical operation, but it is unwise for a surgeon, however skilful he may be, to leave some instrument behind. Very often it leads to the death of the patient and it would be most unfortunate if something of this kind should happen in the surgical operation which will be performed in Palestine. I dislike this idea of the transfer of Arabs elsewhere. I had hoped for the common development of Palestine by Jews and Arabs, but the Commission say that they cannot agree. If this is so, can we hope it will be different in the small Jewish State? Again will not agitators in the Arab State foment strife in the Jewish State? And this time the agitation will be more intense. The Commission points to the parallel of Greece and Turkey and shows us how successful the operation has been there. But that problem was on a much larger scale. One million three hundred thousand Greeks, 400,000 Turks and greater distances were involved. In Palestine there are great opportunities for agricultural development. The Commission envisage transfer to the new Arab State, but there are greater opportunities in Trans-Jordan. With regard to the urban population there should be scope in the towns of the new Arab State. I am anxious that the Arab State should prosper because it is important for the Jewish State that both States should be on a high level of prosperity. The Jewish people are prepared to contribute to assure that the Arabs may, if I may use an Eastern simile, be moved on a golden carpet to a happy land.
With regard to the sovereignty of the Jewish State, what of the mandate over four towns and the question of Tel-Aviv and Jaffa? What of the subvention which is to be paid to the Arab State by the Jewish State. The Report lays down the general principle of taxation that the rich should Day for the poor. That is true, but only within a State where all are working together for the common good. This principle did apply under the Mandate. The Jews willingly contributed to the welfare of their Arab neighbours. To-day the Arabs have refused co-operation, and given up the

2321
benefits they may have had and because of that it is said by the Commission that they should be paid by the Jewish State. Imagine such a principle applied nearer home, and that we asked Northern Ireland to pay a subsidy to the Free State. This is the Arab reward for inflicting on the Jewish community of Palestine and the whole of the people of Palestine damages amounting to millions of pounds. The Commission estimates the direct loss to Palestine as a result of the 1936 riots as £3,500,000 and the indirect loss amounted to many more millions.
In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib, King of Assyria, came up against all the fenced cites of Judah and took them. And he exacted from Hezekiah 300 talents of silver and 30 talents of gold. And Hezekiah gave him all the silver that was found in the House of the Lord and in the treasure of the King's house. That was 30 centuries ago and to-day the Royal Commission are acting as brokers to Sennacherib. Whatever plan is finally resolved in Palestine it must set a limit to the concessions which have been granted to extremists at the present time; it must end the whittling away of the rights and benefits promised to the Jewish people under the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate. I hope that the new settlement will not be sabotaged, as the Mandate has been, by half-heartedness of administration and even by hostilities. The period of transition is of paramount importance. If we are to have any peace in Palestine either during that period or later, or any finality in form of Governments, we must rely on the administration.
The future of Palestine and of a large portion of the Jewish people will be influenced by the decision of this House and by the action of the Government. It is, of course, within the power of the British Government to impose any plan on Arab and Jew alike. The Arabs have already announced that they will resist. I hope that they will not do so by the methods which have characterised their resistance under the Mandate. The Jewish people will not resort to these methods. The responsibility for the future will rest all the heavier on the British Government.
9.35 p.m.
Mr. Crossley: The hon. Member said he was very diffident about addressing the House. I am sure he has as much right as any other Member in the House to address it, but I cannot help wishing that there were two Arabs to come and address the House. I believe everyone would have flocked in to hear them, and it would have created a fairer impression if they had had their direct spokesmen as well as the Zionists. The hon. Member used one contemptuous phrase. He said the Arab is not only the son of the desert, but he is the father of the desert.
Mr. de Rothschild: I quoted Colonel Jarvis, a great friend of the Arabs, who wrote a book about them. If I have given any offence to Arabs by saying that, I am extremely sorry, but the fault is not mine.
Mr. Crossley: The hon. Member may have quoted it, but it served his purpose very well. If one thing is brought out above all others in the Report, it is that the Arabs' national aspirations utterly conflicted with the very proper and laudable aspirations of his own race—that is brought out in page after page—and that this last rebellion was merely the culmination of six previous rebellions. I wonder if it is Liberal to decry and deny the national aspirations of a people like the Arab fellaheen. I cannot help feeling, nevertheless, that this is the first Debate since I have been fortunate enough to be a Member here in which we have discussed Palestine against a background of reality. I remember very well the horror, the distaste, and the feeling that I had committed a sacrilege, when once I suggested that co-operation between Arabs and Jews might well be a fantasy, and that a clash of nationalities might well be an inescapable and inexorable reality. I remember, too, the Debate that took place only just over a year ago on the Legislative Council, which followed very much the same trend as this Debate, speech after speech with the full force of Zionist opinion behind it. That Debate was the last straw that broke the camel's back and brought the rebellion. This Debate may bring trouble in Palestine within the next month. No one but a hard man would deny the national aspirations, the repression, the subjection and the misery of the Jewish people in the world. I would, however, remark

2323
in passing, that there is no people who have treated the Jews right up to the time of this Mandate with such consideration as the Arabs throughout all their lands. Therefore I would ask from the Jews a far greater sympathy than we read of in this Report of the Royal Commission.
The first crystal clear fact that emerges from the Report is that the Arabs' basis of claim is if not substantially justified —if I were to claim that, as I think I do, the Secretary of State would quarrel with me—at least founded on most definite evidence. I apologise for returning for a moment to the McMahon pledge, but why did not Sir Henry McMahon mention a town south of Damascus if he meant to include Palestine. The country lying to the West of a line between Aleppo and Damascus is exactly French Syria. If he had wished to mention the country lying either to the West of the railway South of Damascus, or to the West of the Jordan South of Damascus, surely he ought to have mentioned some other place further South. There were Deraa, Amam, Salt—even the Dead Sea—which he could have mentioned. If that is so, the censure in the Report is justified. I wish the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) were here, because there is censure contained in this Report. "It was in ignorance of any other compact than the McMahon pledge that in June, 1916, the Sherif declared war against the Turks." "It was in the highest degree unfortunate," in another passage, "that the British Government did not make clear their intentions."
I come to my second document on which the Arabs found their claims. A revolt in the desert where there is no Turkish army is a comparatively easy operation. A revolt in Palestine with the Turkish army quartered upon the country was a hanging matter. If there were aeroplanes which dropped over the Jewish population of Poland leaflets requiring the Jews to revolt, there were also aeroplanes that dropped leaflets over the Palestinian Arabs, not the Arabs of Iraq or of the Yemen or of the desert, but Palestinian Arabs—asking them to revolt against the Turks. If they did not enter into open revolt, at least the Turkish forces were depleted, at least General
2324
Allenby was received in Jerusalem as a liberator; Allah en Bey, the Officer of God who came into Jerusalem and made a proclamation upholding that the British Government, which was liberating those Arabs, would grant them self-governing institutions. They knew nothing at that date of any pledge but the McMahon pledge, and the date of the Balfour Declaration had been postponed until one month before and had not reached Jerusalem at that time.
My final document is Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations. The Mandate under which Palestine was governed all those years was a class "A" Mandate, which imposes upon the mandatory the obligation of granting self-governing institutions to the people of the country. Yet there never has been the slightest chance of self-governing institutions being granted to the Arabs because they are in a majority—for no other reason. I believe the argument of Lord Balfour was a very unfortunate one in that the Palestinian Arabs are not the same as the Arabs of other parts of Arabia. The effendi class is to some extent an inter-Arabian class. The peasant class, the fellaheen, has been settled on that land for not less than 1,400 years.
The next point that emerges from the Report of the Royal Commission is the absolute consistency of the opposition of the Arabian population to the Mandate itself. They did not want Western civilisation. They did not want the instrusion of irreligious communities. They did not want to be overcome by numbers. They did not want the creeping conquest of the immigrant. What they did want was the tutelage of Great Britain, and they did want self-governing institutions. Is there any person of any party sitting in this House to-day who would dare to say that it was an improper thing to want self-governing institutions? The Zionist aims conflicted with the Arab aims. "The object of the modern Jewish pioneer is to prepare room and work for the thousands and millions that wait outside."

There was no attempt to hide them. And so the years went on, years of riot, years of truce, in the words of the Commission:
"The sort of peace that exists between two bodies of men who have little or nothing to do with each other"
And so through the years, the Jews, hard-working, building up a great, modern Western State, arrogant a little

2325
and boastful of their achievement, but a fine achievement nevertheless; without the least desire to become Palestinians; the Arabs, on the other side, courteous, languid, rather lazy perhaps, fatalistic, hating ever more inexorably the foreign invasion of what they regarded as their own land. The Shaw Commission came and that Commission bore out the Arab case to a large extent. It was followed by Sir John Hope Simpson, who prescribed a drastic curtailment of immigration. Just as the Arabs thought that some part of their case had been recognised by the British Parliament, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Mr. R. MacDonald) published what the Arabs still know as the Black Letter, and following on that letter to Dr. Weizmann came the four unhappy years—1932, with its immigration of 10,000, 1933 with its immigration of 30,000, 1934 with its immigration of 42,000, and 1935 with its immigration of 62,000. The creeping conquest of the immigrant became a flood to overwhelm Palestine. In Iraq, in Saudi-Arabia, in the Yemen, in Syria, in Lebanon, in Egypt, they saw for Arab nationalities the attainment of the status of complete independence. In Palestine they regard it as an additional stigma and not as a consolation that the same independence is not granted to them. In Parliament no voice was raised but the voice of the Zionist. The proposed legislative council, not taking into effect their majority in the country appeared to them a farce. Finally, there was the repeated insults that in fact they were the real beneficiaries. To which they replied in the magnificent words in the Report:
"You say we are better off. You say my house has been enriched by strangers, but it is my house and I did not invite the strangers in or ask them to enrich it. I do not care how poor or bare it is, if only I am master of it."
Is there any Englishman who dare say that that is not an honourable sentiment?
This is the history of an appalling tragedy against the background of pledges that were inconsistent one with another. It none the less demands a practical solution. There are 400,000 Jews actually n Palestine to-day. There is an inexorable political clash rising every few years between those Jews and the Arabs. There is no possibility of deporting them, and six most eminent Englishmen went out
2326
to Palestine to decide what could best be done, and they have unanimously decided upon the principle of partition. I am not going to oppose that principle. Indeed, I was the first person to say in this House, amid scorn, that it was necessary to segregate the Arab from the Jew in Palestine, and to divide them.
I shall, however, make one observation upon the permanent Mandate of Great Britain and two detailed observations upon the Jewish state, and the partition. I shall not detain the House for more than another four minutes. In Jerusalem there is the Mosque of Omar, the Dome of the Rock, rising on what, I suppose, is the most beautiful architectural plateau in the world. From the rock in that Mosque, the rock on which Abraham sacrificed Isaac—
Mr. Kirkwood: He did not sacrifice him.
Mr. Crossley: He was about to sacrifice him, Mohammed ascended into the Heavens and the Angel of Gabriel came and put his fingers on that rock and prevented it from following Mohammed into the Heavens. It was a very materialistic Heaven, and afterwards he returned to Mecca visiting the birthplace of Jesus at Bethlehem on his way. Just below that Mosque there is the Wailing Wall, where week by week on Fridays the Jews lament and worship, before stones of the ancient temple of Solomon. A little further away is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre rising over the caves in which, between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, Jesus lay buried. I believe that it is right and proper that a great Power like England should hold in perpetuity, in trust for the peace of these holy places, shrines so sacred to three of the very great religions of the world. I am glad that that recommendation is made.
My first detailed criticism of the partition is that, in contradistinction to what so many hon. Members have said, the Jews have been granted under this tentative proposal too much and not too little land, and I am prepared to prove that by these figures. In the whole of the Arab territory, not the British Mandated Territory, there are only 1,400 Jews who have gone there and are living there, and who have to be transferred from there, but in the Jewish State there are still living 225,000 Arabs, and I believe that that is prima facie evidence that it is all the

2327
best of the land which has been taken away from the Arabs and given to the Jews. Arising out of that argument is my second detailed criticism that it is most unfortunate that a purely Arab population in the North should be given to the Jewish State, a population in which there is no Jewish colonisation at all, and I cannot help thinking that, if we wish to avoid friction in the future, it would be far better if that population was handed over to the Lebanon and Syria.
I would conclude by making an appeal. I think that I too can make an appeal as well as the Secretary of State, because I believe I am a very trusted friend of the Arabs. My appeal is this. I would ask the Arabs to realise that if they give up a part of their national aspirations under this scheme, so do the Jews give up a part of theirs. If the Jews under this scheme gain a Jewish independent State, so do they gain an Arab independent State—an independent State which largely fulfils what they believe, and I believe, was promised to them in the McMahon letters. If that be so, I would make this one further remark to them. I believe that logically they win their case from end to end. I believe that the logic is wholly with them, but in practical politics logic so often ends in disaster.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Dennis Herbert): Mr. Churchill.
Mr. Ellis Smith: On a point of Order. I understand that this is the House of Commons. I have been here and have seen hon. Members sitting on the back benches during the whole of the day. Should not they have precedence over other people who have been in and out?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of Order. The calling of a Member is a matter within the discretion of the Chair.
Mr. Buchanan: On a point of Order. Is it part of the Rules governing Debates that when an hon. Member is called he must stand and show the usual desire that he wishes to speak? Is there a new Rule, or is the Rule now being departed from, and it is not now necessary for certain
2328
hon. Members to rise before they are called?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: On this particular occasion several hon. Members rose, including the right hon. Member for Epping. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I waited in order to look round before taking the course I did in calling upon the right hon. Gentleman, a course which I hope is in the interests of the conduct of the Debate as a whole.
Mr. Buchanan: On a further point of Order. May I say with due respect that I do not want to get into conflict with you, if I can avoid it. I should like your reply on this point. Is it customary for an hon. Member to stand in order to be called? I want to be clear on the point. Secondly, is it the prerogative of the Chair or is there any Rule that governs the Chair or do any negotiations determine the calling of a Member to speak rather than his standing in the House?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: With regard to the question of standing, if an hon. Member indicates his desire to speak, I am not sure how far his standing up before he is called matters. The recognised words are: "Catch the eye." That can be done without standing. I am not quite clear as to the second part of the hon. Member's question.
Mr. Buchanan: Perhaps I may be able to explain it without getting into conflict with you. Have negotiations taken place to enable the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) to get in? I am asking whether it is these negotiations which determine the calling of an hon. Member or does it just depend upon Mr. Speaker or Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as the case may be, to decide who is to speak?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have some considerable doubt whether it is right for me to answer questions of this kind. This is a matter which is admittedly in the discretion of the occupant of the Chair for the time being and I do not think that it is in order to call that discretion in question at the time on the Floor of the House. Therefore, strictly, I doubt whether it is in order that I should deal with a question of this kind, but perhaps I may be allowed to say that information is conveyed sometimes through the usual channels to the occupant of the Chair as to certain intentions of hon. and right

2329
hon. Members, intentions which probably are not known to other Members of the House but which do have some effect on the mind of the occupant of the Chair as to what would be for the convenience of the House as a whole.
Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. I want to be clear on one point. You said—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have already said that I cannot answer any more questions on that.
Mr. Gallacher rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order.
Mr. Gallacher: Cannot I raise a point of Order?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must ask the hon. Member to resume his seat.
Mr. Attlee: Cannot any hon. Member raise a point of Order?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Yes, but on this occasion I gave my answer perfectly clearly. I have declined to hear any further points of Order on that matter. The hon. Member said that he desired to raise a point of Order and he started by referring to what I had said.
Mr. Gallacher: My point is that you gave a Ruling on another occasion.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If I gave a Ruling on another occasion, that does not arise on this occasion.
Mr. Gallacher: But it conflicts with your Ruling on this occasion. Cannot I ask for an explanation?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No. I am afraid that I must leave the hon. Member to raise any grievance that he may have of that kind in a more convenient or more proper form.
10.4 p.m.
Mr. Churchill: I should like for one moment to make my apology to the House and to say that whatever has happened is entirely my fault, because with a singular lack of that precipitancy for which I have of ten been blamed, I did not notice the point upon which my hon. Friend finished his speech. I thought there were two or three more words in his sentence, and therefore I did not immediately jump up. I will gladly give way to any hon. Member, but I do not think that it has ever
2330
been the rule that the first person who gets up is the person to be called. [Interruption.] The hon. Member who has just sat down is clearly a strong partisan of the Arab point of view. He has told us how he has served in the field with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster—
Mr. Crossley: I did not serve in the field.
Mr. Churchill: I misunderstood the hon. Member, but, at any rate, he is well acquainted with the Arab problems and speaks with a strong feeling for their point of view. I do not consider that we are altogether in a free and easy position in this House in regard to this question. Pledges have been given on both sides. The pledge which all the world regarded with considerable attention, and which was mentioned by the Secretary of State in his speech, is undoubtedly the Balfour Declaration of policy put forward by the War Cabinet in the crisis of the Great War. It is a delusion to suppose that this was a mere act of crusading enthusiasm or quixotic philanthropy. On the contrary, it was a measure taken, as the right hon. Gentleman who led us in the crisis of the War knows, in the dire need of the War with the object of promoting the general victory of the Allies, for which we expected and received valuable and important assistance. We cannot brush that aside and start afresh as though it had never been given, and deal with this matter as if we had no obligations or responsibility. Therefore, I am bound to say that upon this issue, having studied the question as far as I can and having some personal connection and responsibility for it, I should have preferred the Government to have persevered in the old policy of persuading one side to concede and the other to forbear, and to carry forward that policy, hard and heavy though it may be, with all its inconveniences.
However, we are now presented with this magnificently written State document, the result of months of inquiry by men of very high character and ability, and we are bound to treat the Report of such a Commission with proper respect and consideration. All the same I must say that I could not vote for the Government Motion that we should approve now the principle of partition. I cannot do so because it seems to me it would be premature for the Government to ask the

2331
House to commit itself finally to this main principle. The principle cannot be judged fairly apart from the details by which it is expressed. Take the military aspect alone. The gravest anxieties arise about that. There are two sovereign States, one a rich and small State more crowded than Germany, with double the population to the kilometre of France, and then in the mountains in the surrounding regions, stretching up to Bagdad with the Assyrians and the desert tribes to the south, the whole of this great Arab area confronting this new Jewish State, and in between the two the British holding a number of extremely important positions with responsibilities at present altogether undefined.
It seems to me that this is a matter on which we must know more before we can approve. How can we decide at this moment that we will stand between these two sovereign States and keep the peace between them without knowing at all to what we are committing ourselves? The Secretary of State says that these details have not been worked out; they are coming at the next stage. What is the next stage? It is one for further exploration and inquiry and discussion with the League of Nations; the next stage is discussing with the various parties through the committees which will be set up. We have not got before us at this moment any of the vital data upon which we should be able to commit ourselves finally to the principle of partition. It may happen that the League of Nations may not approve of the Government's proposals, and it may happen that they may break down in detail. It may happen that the two parties, under the pressure of these proposals, may come to a better solution than is open to them at the moment. Therefore, I feel great difficulty at this stage and at this moment in committing myself to the principle of partition, and if it were the only alternative I should have no choice but to vote against it.
On the other hand, we have to be fair to the Commission and to the Government who are carrying this matter forward. The Report and proposals of the Commission should be tested to the full, and the Government have in their connection with the League of Nations a claim for certain advice and authority. At the present time, obviously, it would
2332
be harsh for Parliament, even if it had the power to prevent this matter going forward and being considered at the League of Nations. I have been looking about and walking about during the course of the afternoon to find some way by which, without hampering the forward movement and the treatment of this policy, those who do not feel inclined to commit themselves to the principle of partition may nevertheless agree with the next necessary step. It is of the greatest importance that we should be united on this problem. It is a problem where all the world is looking to see whether Great Britain behaves in an honourable manner, in a courageous manner and in a sagacious manner. I hope those who have been associated in this policy and have played some part in it will at any rate endeavour to walk together up to the point where it is perfectly clear that division arises.
There is also the question of the value of time. I do want to see some time before the House of Commons passes a definite vote of approval of the principle of partition. There are, I believe, signs on both sides that people are thinking that perhaps rather than this they might make some mutual concessions. They have heard of the judgment of Solomon, and how wise that was, in which a baby was held up in order to see which was the true mother. But if sufficient time had not been given for the true mother to proclaim herself by her feelings, I very much doubt whether that parable would have commended itself so much to subsequent generations.
I am not talking on the merits of this case; I am merely discussing procedure. It seems to me that we should treat this discussion not as a Second Reading Debate, but as a First Reading Debate and for leave to long in the Bill and make all the necessary preparations, and that we should not prejudice the further stages. Therefore, with your permission, and supposing that it fits in with the procedure, I should propose to move, as an Amendment to the Amendment of the official Opposition, to insert after the word "proposals" the following:
"contained in Command Paper No. 5513 relating to Palestine should be brought before the League of Nations with a view to enabling His Majesty's Government, after adequate inquiry, to present to Parliament a definite scheme in accordance with the policy as set out in that Paper."

2333
That seems to me to enable the whole of this matter to go forward, and at the same time it enables us to reserve our right to examine the work when it is a completed work, to examine the proposals when they are before us not merely in general adumbration, but in precise and careful detail. It keeps the position open and, on the other hand, it arms the Government with all the powers they need at this moment, and it enables us all to adjourn the most serious aspects of this question until such moment as everyone, with full knowledge of a definite and concrete scheme, will be able to judge for himself.
10.18 p.m.
Mr. T. Williams: I would like at the outset to make plain our attitude towards the proposed Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). We are not taking up a party attitude in this matter because we all desire to do our best to get a good solution of this very difficult question, in the interests of Arabs and Jews alike, and in the interests of this country, which is vitally concerned as the Mandatory Power. I recognise that the right hon. Gentleman is making an attempt to meet our point of view. I believe that very many hon. Members in all parts of the House feel that it is premature for this House to be committed to the proposals of the White Paper. If we thought this Amendment would secure that the House was not committed, we would gladly agree to it; but, in fact, the Amendment does allow the Government to go to the League and to frame a scheme in accordance with the policy of the White Paper. That is, in fact, agreeing to the partition. If the words
"in accordance with the policy as set out in that Paper"
were omitted, we could agree, and thus avoid a Division. But as the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment reads it seems to leave the position exactly as it was because it is definitely tied up with paragraph 3 of the Government's White Paper which states:
"and that a scheme of partition on the general lines recommended by the Commission represents the best and most hopeful solution of the deadlock."
To the extent that the right hon. Gentleman's proposal is tied up with that paragraph of the Command Paper, I do not see any difference between his policy and
2334
that of His Majesty's Government. If the right hon. Gentleman felt disposed to omit the words I have indicated then, posisbly, we might avoid a Division.
Mr. Churchill: My intention was to draw a distinction between approving of the policy and approving of further inquiries into the policy.
Mr. Williams: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman, with his vast experience, will be the first to appreciate the fact that his Amendment is tied up with paragraph 3 of the White Paper which involves partition, and that therefore there is no material difference between his suggested Amendment and the Motion which appears on the Order Paper on behalf of His Majesty's Government. In any case we fail to see any material difference between them. Therefore much as we would like to avoid any Division and to leave this question a non-party one, conceding to the Government the right to do the best they can in all the circumstances, without committing the House and ready as we would be to fall in with the spirit of the right hon. Gentleman's Motion, we feel that the words are in no particular different from those in which are set out the policy of the Government who have accepted the principle of partition. That being the case I am afraid we shall have to proceed with our Amendment and unfortunate though it may seem, we shall have to press that Amendment to a Division.
10.22 p.m.
Mr. Maxton: On a point of Order. I am very interested in the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, and in the reply which has just been made, but, as a private Member, I am completely at a loss to know exactly what procedure is being adopted here. I am asking you, Sir, for guidance. We are not in Committee and we have here a definite Motion on behalf of the Government on the Paper—in my view a somewhat bald and insufficient Motion in view of the circumstances in which we are met. Now the right hon. Gentleman comes forward with an Amendment to the Amendment of the official Opposition I do not wish to block procedure along those lines, but if we are to, discuss a new proposition, different from that on which we started at 4 o'clock to-day, and different from what is on the Paper, I wish for an opportunity of think-

2335
ing it over in private and discussing it with friends inside and outside the House. Therefore, I think the appropriate procedure at this stage would be the Adjournment of the Debate. First I would ask you, Sir, whether the Amendment now moved is in order, and, if so, I wish then to ask whether I would be in order in moving the Adjournment of the Debate.
Mr. Speaker: As I understand the position, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) has not moved any Amendment as yet. His speech was confined to what he proposed to do in certain events. In the course of time, supposing the present question is negatived, he could then move an Amendment to the Amendment which is on the Paper.
Mr. Maxton: Would that be in order?
Mr. Speaker: That would be in order.
10.25 p.m.
Mr. Buchanan: On a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman raises an Amendment which now in fact has already become a problem of discussion. He proposes to move an Amendment, and he is replied to by the Front Opposition Bench. I want to ask you, Sir, in view of the fact that that has been done at about 20 minutes past 10 at night, whether it is now in order for a completely new Amendment to become part of the discussion. Should not the proposition put before us as an Amendment wait for discussion until after the Amendment of the official Opposition has been disposed of?
Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew: On a point of Order. On page 118 of the "Manual of Procedure" it says, under the heading "Power to amend notice of Motion":
"The amended notice must he given, at latest, during a sitting of the House preceding the day appointed for the motion."
Mr. Speaker: I do not think that has anything to do with this Debate. The original question was:
"That this House approves the policy of His Majesty's Government relating to Palestine as set out in Cmd. Paper No. 5513,"
since which an Amendment has been moved, to leave out all the words after "That," in order to add at the end the words of the Amendment which appear
2336
on the Paper. The course which I think the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) proposes is that that question should now be put, that when I put the question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," that should be defeated, that then I should put the question, "That those words be there added," and that, as soon as that question is proposed, the right hon. Member for Epping should rise in his place and move the Amendment which he has suggested.
10.28 p.m.
Mr. Buchanan: Which means, as far as I can gather, that that Amendment is not before us now, and that what is before us now is the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones). The point that I put, with respect, is whether the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) will be for discussion, or whether it will be automatically accepted by you and put from the Chair.
Mr. Speaker: As soon as the right hon. Gentleman moves his Amendment, when we get to that stage, I shall put it from the Chair.
Mr. Buchanan: Without discussion, Sir?
Mr. Speaker: No. The House will be able to debate it at any length it likes.
Sir A. Sinclair: On a point of Order. Would it not be a more convenient way of discussing these issues to discuss the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment now and to get that out of the way? The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) has just begun a speech and made some observations on it, and would it not be well to get the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment out of the way and then get back on to the main Amendment which has been moved from the Front Opposition Bench?
Mr. Speaker: I think the object of the right hon. Member for Epping is to get out of the way the Amendment of the Front Opposition Bench, in order to discuss his proposed Amendment, and I think the hon. Member for Don Valley is suggesting to the right hon. Member for Epping that his Amendment should be moved, but in other words than those which he suggested in his speech.
10.30 p.m.
Mr. Attlee: I suggest that the position is this. What is before the House is the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend. The right hon. Gentleman, in speaking to that Amendment, indicated that he was proposing to move an Amendment to the Amendment. My hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) has explained that, as far as we are concerned, the proposed Amendment to the Amendment will not meet our position at all and that, therefore, we are persisting in our Amendment and intend to take it to a vote. Therefore, in my submission the Debate should continue on the Amendment which we wish the House to adopt.
Mr. Speaker: That is exactly what I have been trying to explain to the House, but the right hon. Gentleman has put it in much plainer words.
Mr. Maxton: I have listened to the various explanations which have been given since I first asked my question, and I am still of the opinion that the fairest thing to the House and to you, Sir, is that the Debate should be adjourned so that this new proposition which is to be discussed later, which none of us have had an opportunity of discussing among our friends, and which seems to be fathered in a friendly way by the Government, should be put on the Paper. I wish, therefore, to move "That the Debate be now adjourned."
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member cannot move that now, because it is in the middle of the speech of the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). He must wait, at any rate, until the hon. Member has finished his speech.
Mr. T. Williams: For the fourth or fifth time I will attempt to return to the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend. During the course of the Debate there have been definitely pro-Jew speeches and there have been one or two that were definitely pro-Arab. I hope that I shall be neither anti-Arab nor pro-Jew, but, if anything, pro-Palestine. No feudal landlord nor modern capitalist will blind me to the fact that broadly speaking the workers' interests are identical whether they are Jews or Arabs. Should there be any bias in what I have to say, I hope it will be on the side of the workers
2338
of both nationalities and not on the side of any theory that has been advanced. The Commission had a very thankless task and they not only acquitted themselves admirably but produced a most brilliant analysis of the whole situation in Palestine. I am rather doubtful. however, about their conclusions, and much more doubtful about the hasty and indecent decision taken by His Majesty's Government. If there has been a speech made in the course of this Debate which justified our Amendment, I think it was made by the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), who proved beyond a shadow of doubt that even to accept the principles as laid down by the Commission was very premature, dangerous, and extremely hazardous.
In this Report 150 pages are devoted to proving that material and economic advantages have followed the Mandate. The remainder of the Report is devoted to proving how impossible it is for the Mandate to continue. Therefore the Commission dig the grave and bury the Mandate, but say that the spirit of the mandatory administration shall continue. One thing is crystal clear, that a remarkable advance has been made during the last 15 years, amid all the turmoil which has existed, and one wonders what would have been the situation in Palestine if the will to succeed with the Mandate had actually been there. In any case we cannot forget that the Mandate was accepted by the Government with their eyes wide open and knowing all the difficulties and problems which they would have to face. After 17 years they are ready to throw up the sponge and, to say the least of it, that is a humiliating retreat.
I suggest to the Secretary of State for the Colonies that little or no consideration has been paid to the workers, either Arab or Jew, in taking that decision. The Commission have placed on record the fact that the standards of all classes have improved, that wages are higher than in any other part of the Arab kingdom, that health services have improved and that the death rate has fallen. Although the mandatory government had obligations not only to the feudal landlord but to the Arab and the Jewish workers, they seem to have paid little or no attention to the conditions that have obtained during that time. In paragraph 19, on page 375 of their Report, the Commission declare,

2339
"The hope of harmony between the races has proved untenable. … There is little moral value in maintaining the political unity of Palestine at the cost of perpetual hatred, strife and bloodshed."
We entirely agree with that, but we are entitled to ask whether that hatred, strife and bloodshed were really inevitable. As we have no access to the Commission itself I should like to ask whether the workers, the Arab workers in particular, were invited to give any evidence before the Commission. Were they consulted at all during the sittings of the Commission? We should like to know who the Arab spokesmen were, if any Arab spokesmen were sent to represent the view of the Arab workers. We know that Palestine is more prosperous than any other country in the Arab Kingdom. We know that the Arab workmen must have a point of view and we want to know whether it was submitted to the Commission. The economic interests of the Arab leaders are assured, whatever the political situation may be.
I had the pleasure of meeting a leader of the Arabs within the precincts of this House. I know the point of view of Arab leaders representing the landowning community. I should be more interested to know the point of view of the Arab labourer. We have already had access to the Jewish labour point of view and to the persons who care for the interests of the Jewish workers. It can be said in favour of the Nationalist leaders that they have been persistent and determined. From the very commencement they have opposed the Mandate, and the national home and they oppose partition and are unwilling to accept anything apart from absolute national independence. When questions were submitted to the Nationalist leader whom we met in this House he stated very plainly that Nationalist leaders refused to accept hte legitimacy of the Mandate or the national home and refused to accept partition.
I am not going to argue with the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley) about interpretation, but I would observe that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies made a very definite statement on the promises made between 1915 and 1920. Whether the hon. Gentleman or the Secretary of State for the Colonies is right in his interpreta-
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tion, I will leave the two of them to argue about afterwards. I shall not waste time on that phase of the problem. Promises were certainly made to both Arabs and Jews.
In 1937, none of those promises, so far as we can see, has been fulfilled, or are likely to be fulfilled, if the policy accepted by the Government is carried to its logical conclusion. Having accepted the situation in 1920, what is to be said for the attitude of the administration during this period? They have been criticised by the Arabs, by the Jews, by the Mandates Commission, and finally by the Royal Commission. They have been charged with indifference and, on certain occasions, with active opposition to the Mandate itself. The land settlement administration has been proved to be dilatory and it is on record—this is more important than anything—that the administration has been hostile to co-operation between Arab and Jewish workers. To the extent that that hostility has succeeded in keeping the two sections apart, it has prevented the Mandate from being successfully operated. No denial has been made to the statement that the administration in Palestine in undertaking certain work has never, so far as we can learn, applied the Fair Wages Clause. In every particular it seems that the workers' interests have been neglected. Where there was an opportunity for real co-operation and of breaking down racial, religious and other barriers, the administration has been most unhelpful. The result is, we are informed that there can be no peace as long as the Mandate remains.
The Commission therefore declare that, the Arabs being Asiatics and the Jews being Europeans, there can be nothing in common between them, but I have seen with my own eyes, where there was a will to co-operate, that Arab and Jewish workers have co-operated with mutual benefits to both sections of those workers. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) that advantage has not been taken of the genuine desire on the part of those who do the work in Palestine for real co-operation. When the Secretary of State says, as he did this afternoon, that one of the major reasons why there could be no unity between the two sections, was

2341
a question of education, I would draw his attention to the second paragraph of Article 15 of the Mandate, which gives the mandatory Power full liberty, if they wish it, to insist that both Jews and Arabs shall learn a second language apart from their own. If the will had been there, that very great problem could have been solved, and there would have been no necessity for the surgical operation to-day.
Turning to the partition recommended by the Royal Commission, our submission is that the proposals are ill-considered, hopelessly inconclusive, tremendously speculative and hazardous, and may even create less peace in the future than there has been during the past 15 years. The Commission tell us that partition must fulfil three conditions: It must be practical; it must conform to our obligations; and it must do justice to both Arab and Jew. I want to examine whether these conditions are possible of fulfilment under the recommendations which have been made.
We all know the size of Palestine; it is a very small country. It is to be carved up into three States—two sovereign States and one mandated. There must be artificial barriers that no one can justify. There will be minorities in each of the States; there will be three sets of customs duties and three defence forces; and no one will know exactly where one finishes and the other starts. Indeed, the recommendations are so inconclusive that they need a great deal more consideration than has been given to them so far before we can either accept the principle or the details. A multiplicity of problems must be solved before any House of Commons could accept either the principle or the details. Even the Commission themselves tell us, in paragraph (3) on page 380, that:
"further protracted inquiry … would be needed for working out a scheme of partition."
On page 383 they tell us that it is not possible for them to draw a precise line, and they therefore recommend that a Frontier Commission be established for the purpose of dealing with the boundaries. I hope the Noble Lord will tell us, when he comes to reply, that it is hardly sufficient to accept the principle of partition with the very skeleton scheme that has been laid before the House in
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this Report. We ought to know much more than we do now from the thin red line drawn around this map, allocating one portion to the Jews and the other portion to the Arabs. It has been already pointed out this afternoon that there are 225,000 Arabs in the area that has been tentatively allocated to the Jews.
The Commission suggest, among other things, that as far as possible there ought to be an exchange of land and an exchange of population, and I want to put one or two questions to the Noble Lord. He not only knows the problem from A to Z, but will, I am sure, be ready and willing to reply as far as possible in the time at his disposal. The Commission declare that, if partition is to become effective in promoting a final settlement, transfer of land and transfer of population will have to take place, and that in the last resort transfer will have to be compulsory. They suggest, quite rightly, that this will call for the highest statesmanship on the part of all concerned. I should like to know whether, when the Government accepted the principle of partition, they also accepted the principle of transfer, and whether, in particular, they accepted the principle of compulsory transfer in the last resort. I am convinced that, if the 225,000 Arabs within the tentative Jewish territory have to be transferred to other parts of Palestine or to Transjordan, that will raise a problem with which the present Administration will be totally incapable of dealing unless they manifest much higher statesmanship than they have manifested for a long period of time.
The exchange of land and the exchange of population are to be left to the administration. We should like to know whether it is the Government's intention effectively to carry out the recommendations so far as transfer is concerned if partition is to be accepted in principle and to be worked out in detail. If partition is to be the final solution, what is meant by sovereignty? One is prompted to put the question for this simple reason. Of the five towns within the Jewish territory, four of them are to remain for a period under the present mandatory government. How long is the period to be before full sovereignty is conceded to the Jews, assuming that partition is the final solution? I know that this period will be bound up with treaties and safeguards for minorities. I am willing to concede

2343
that a certain period of time will be necessary before the new Arab State or the new Jewish State can have full sovereignty, but is a time limit going to be placed on this transition period or, once the administration have their hold not only on the four towns but some control over Jaffa, will they not linger as long as they can and tend to reduce sovereignty to a farce?
The Jaffa-Jerusalem corridor is supposed to involve negotiating troubles that may occur within the Jewish territory with these 50,000 Arabs resident in Jaffa. The Commission suggest that the Jaffa Harbour must continue and that the corridor will be helpful in preserving the identity of Jaffa within the Arab State. But they insist that the Jews and the Arabs shall jointly run the Jaffa harbour through a joint harbour committee presided over by an English officer. But already we have been told in the Report again and again that Jews and Arabs cannot live together, because they have nothing in common. Yet they are informed that they must live and work together as far as the Jaffa harbour is concerned. I am entitled to ask this question and the Noble Lord will perhaps be good enough to reply to it. The Mandatory administration will have the last word in connection with the harbours of Haifa and Jaffa, and since both these ports are in the Jewish territory is it not fair to assume that there are Imperialist designs behind the preservation of that power for the third government within that small territory, and is it not dangerous to make promises which are not likely to be fulfilled either to the Arabs or the Jews? In any case, before any final scheme is produced and brought before this House, both sections of the community residing within Palestine ought to know exactly when the Mandatory administration is to cease and when full sovereignty is to start, for only when that happens will there be any possibility, although divided, of unity being restored for the two sections there.
I want to ask the Noble Lord about the much debated question of Jerusalem. We recognise that that is the spiritual home of many millions of people, but we are at the moment more concerned about those who make Jerusalem their place of abode. It seems clear that, if Jaffa is carved out of one end of the corridor
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because of the peculiar population there, at the other end of the corridor another section of the population should not also be carved out because of their peculiar connection with some other part of Palestine. This seems to me to be one of those things that require a great deal of consideration before a final settlement is reached. It is justification for our demanding that a Joint Select Committee be set up so that not only the principle but general details can be fully worked out before this House is committed to the proposal at all. Indeed, the recommendations are so inconclusive, so ill thought out, so lacking in finality, that the House would do far better to accept this Amendment, let the Mandates Commission examine the recommendation if they wish, let them produce some better proposal for the government of Palestine, but do not let the House commit itself, either in principle or in detail, to a scheme which has not been worked out, so far has given no one any sort of satisfaction or any sort of guarantees, and to that extent satisfied no section of the community.
We still feel that there is room in Palestine for Arab and Jew to live and to co-operate together for their mutual advantage. We do not think that a comparatively few either Medal landlords or modern capitalists ought to stand in the way. Whatever scheme or schemes are brought to the House, we shall regard as being of paramount importance the interests of the workers, whether they are Arabs or Jews. We are unwilling to commit ourselves or the House in advance, and until we know that much more consideration has been given to both sections of the community resident in that country, until we know much more about the commitments of this country, financial and otherwise, we are unwilling to accept this scheme, and I hope the House will see fit, even at this late hour, to accept the terms of our Amendment.
10.59 p.m.
Mr. Stephen: It appears to me that the Government are going to add a little more to the tragedy already in connection with Palestine. It is apparent, as the Debate has gone on, that the Government is not so very sure of what it intends to do, and we are going to Geneva to look for the possibility of some other policy. They have come to the conclusion that things are working badly.

2345
For a short time in his speech the right hon. Gentleman became very eloquent about how they were accepting this brilliant Report and deciding upon the acceptance of the principle of partition. Yet, as I listened to him, I wondered how far really they were going to accept the principle of partition. As indications go now, it appears that possibly partition is in danger also, and that they are going to Geneva in the hope of something turning up. That is a very unfortunate position and shows how the circumstances have been created during those years which have brought so much suffering and hardship, and death to many Jews and Arabs in Palestine. This matter should be treated much more seriously, and the Government should be more sure of their position than they are at the present time.
I went to Palestine at the beginning of this year because the party to which I belong is very interested in that problem, and because, as a party, we have certain international affiliations, and the problem of Palestine and the dispute between the Arab community and the Jewish community are a matter of very great importance to the Socialist movement. From my experience in Palestine, I can understand why the Mandate has turned out to be such a failure and why there has been no prospect of peace between the two peoples. The administration has not the confidence either of the Arab community or the Jewish community, and I believe that one of the reasons why the administration in Palestine failed so signally was because all the time the administration was only concerned with the richer sections of the two communities.
There was no real sympathy on the part of the administration with regard to the Jewish workers who had come into the country, they were frankly suspicious of them all the time. When workers applied for citizenship they were very lucky if they got it because the administration were afraid that they might be contaminated with Socialist opinions of some kind or another. Just as they were unsympathetic to the Jewish workers who came into the country, they were similarly completely unsympathetic to the Arabs, especially the peasantry, whose interest was never a matter of very urgent consideration on the part of the administration. The one thing they did try to do was, on the one hand, to please
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the Mufti, and, on the other hand, to please the Right Wing Zionist leaders, but so far as the rank and file of both these races in the country were concerned, the administration systematically gave them no real sympathy. If there is all this improvement in Palestine it is due to the tremendous energy and efficiency of the Jewish community who came into the country, and to Jewish agency, and it was accomplished in spite of the coldness and the hostility of the British administration.
Another point which I want to put shows that the same thing is going to happen in the future as in the past. The Royal Commission was composed of gifted people. Everyone must admit their ability but not one member could be said in any way to be a representative of the working class, or one who was aware of working-class problems from personal experience. It is again something from up above, a high class Commission looking into the trouble that had occurred among the common Jews who had gone into the country, and the miserable Arabs who had been living there in filth and misery for so long. I have had the opportunity of reading the report of the evidence given by representatives of the Jewish Federation of Labour. I have read the report of evidence of many Commissions, but never one where the members of the Commission were so autocratic and, I think, offensive to the witnesses as were the members of this Royal Commission. I noticed also that when the representatives of the Arab community came before the Royal Commission they were treated in a most cavalier fashion when giving their evidence. There was no representative of the working class on the Royal Commission, and all the time in connection with this Palestine problem it has not been dealt with from the point of view of the Jewish workers, the Arab workers, or the Jewish or Arab agricultural workers. It has always been dealt with from the point of view of big capitalism and great Imperial interests. Always in the background there have been the interests of British Imperialism.
When I was in Palestine I met all sections of the community. It is true that it was a conducted tour. I was taken through many of the Jewish collectives. I went through the great industrial works that have been set up. I had an opportunity of meeting His Excellency the High

2347
Commissioner and leading representatives of the Jewish Agency. I found among the ordinary Jewish people and also in conversation with the Arab chiefs I met, extraordinary bitterness against the British administration. It is said that you cannot get the Arabs and Jews to mingle. I remember an Arab railway worker telling us that during the whole of the trouble the interest of the British administration was the safety of the pipe line, and the Jews considered that the chief British concern was not the development of a Jewish national home but the development of British Imperialism in the Eastern Mediterranean. It is just as well that hon. Members should be aware of opinion in Palestine. The Secretary of State said that he asked a Jewish person whether they were able to get any social intercourse with the Arabs.
When I was in Ramoth Gilead there came to meet us seven Sheiks of seven neighbouring Arab villages, and we had a long talk with them about their problems. They said that there was no danger when they came into association with the Jews, and they got no protection from the Government against the Arabs. The terrorists had attacked one of their villages because of the friendly relationship which existed between them and the Jewish community. We went outside and there were Arab children coming in from the neighbouring Arab villages. We went to the Jewish school and saw the Arab and Jewish children meet together and we heard them sing a Jewish song and an Arab song, and when we left the village the Arab and Jewish children were sitting down having a meal together. [Interruption.] It was very nice, but it is not what I should expect from the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall). The generosity of feeling which was exhibited by these people to each other is something which I should not expect from the hon. Member. There was an instance which shows the possibilities of the situation, if only our administration tried to improve the conditions of the working people instead of playing about trying to please the Mufti and effendi, and the big Jewish capitalists who have come into the country.
We are now faced with the question of partition or no partition. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook
2348
(Mr. Amery) tried to persuade the House that it could easily accept the Government's Motion, which did not settle the boundaries and so on. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), later on, evidently thought that that would be a terrible thing to do, and he could not support the Government, as the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook was prepared to do. The whole matter will be decided by our decision on the question of partition. It is the question of partition that is all-important in present circumstances. Hon. Members of my party absolutely refuse to accept the principle of partition.
Throughout the Debate, the assumption has been that partition would lead to peace between the two communities, but there is no evidence to show that that is the case. In fact, the evidence is all against it. The Arab community rejects the idea of partition. The Arabs think it is such a terrible thing that they are prepared to excommunicate any Arab who has anything to do with the acceptance of the partition of the country. The Colonial Secretary told us that the Iraqi Prime Minister had decided that he would not carry on the agitation to which he had evidently been willing to commit himself, but it is still his opinion, and although, as Prime Minister of Iraq, under the fear of losing their independence if he disturbs the right hon. Gentleman, he is not prepared to go on with any agitation, there are plenty of other people not in the Government there who will go on with it.
That seems to me to be the opinion of Arabs generally, with the exception of the Emir Abdulla, who is naturally pleased that he is going to get an addition to his territory, and some of the Arabs in Palestine who think they will get something out of it. I can quite well understand that the Arabs in Palestine do not want to have anything to do with the Emir Abdulla and his rule, because there are only 300,000 people in a territory three and a-half times the size of Palestine, and there has been no development of it under the Emir Abdulla. They will go to the most backward ruler in the whole of that vast country, and it is to be said that, as a reward for his misgovernment of Transjordania, that part of Palestine is to be added to his domains.

2349
I cannot understand what the members of the Royal Commission were thinking about when they made that suggestion. The Arab community is obviously against it, and the Jewish community is also against it. They know how they have been let down already. Neither side can trust the representatives of the British Government.
One question I want to put to the Government is this. What will be the attitude of the Government if one of the other nations, say the United States or France, is prepared to accept the Mandate for Palestine? Will the British Government be willing to step aside and allow France to take over the Mandate for Palestine? I would like a definite answer to that question. I have had a letter by air mail from Palestine to-day and I gather that among the Jewish collectives, there is a growing opinion that one of those countries might be prepared to take over the Mandate. I do not believe Britain will give up the Mandate. But I believe that the British Government has failed in carrying out its Mandate because all the time it sought to keep the two races apart. [Laughter.] The right hon. Gentleman opposite laughs but why did the Administration refuse to allow the Arabs and Jews to work a united trade union in the railway service? They said that if this trade union was affiliated with the international trade union at Amsterdam they would not recognise it, and without that affiliation it would have been impossible for the union to have carried on. The Administration put every difficulty in the way of joint association. In Ramoth Gilead there was an opportunity to have an Arab teacher teaching the children in both the Arab and Jewish schools, but the Administration would not have it. So it has always been the policy to "divide and conquer," to keep the two races apart in order that British Imperialism would be able to make use of both in connection with Imperial interests in the Eastern Mediterranean. I hope that my words will also go from this House to Palestine, and I would say to the Arab peasantry and the Arab workers and to the Jewish peasantry and the Jewish workers that I hope the working classes and the peasantry in Palestine will unite their forces and clear out the effendis and the Jewish capitalists and also drive out British Imperialism and
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make Palestine the country of a united Arab and Jewish people.
11.24 p.m.
Earl Winterton: I must ask the indulgence of the House for having to trouble them with a speech at what is, in these modern days, a somewhat late hour in our Parliamentary proceedings, though when I first entered the House it was the normal time for the closing speech in a Debate to be made. In normal circumstances, anyone replying for the Government on an occasion like this would do so in very few words, but it is necessary for me to-night to remember three facts. In the first place, we have had the report of a Commission which, by general acceptance, at any rate outside this House, has performed its task extraordinarily well. It was a Commission composed of men of the greatest eminence, and it would be unfair to them and to the Administration in Palestine if some of the statements which have been made about them to-night went unanswered in this Debate. In the second place, it would be very discourteous to the House and to the many hon. and right hon. Members who have spoken if, as representing the Government, I did not reply to the points which have been made. May I, in parenthesis, say that while I differ from many of the things that have been said from the benches opposite and from below the Gangway opposite, I appreciate, as does the Colonial Secretary, that the speeches throughout this Debate dealing with this important and almost historic subject have been in each case sincere and impartial in intention. I should like, as a Member of the Government and as an old Member of this House, to point out that we have it on the records of the Royal Commission itself that the debates in this House have an effect in Palestine which probably hon. and right hon. Members who take part in them do not always realise. The occasion of the last Debate had a certain effect in Palestine, and I am very anxious that there should be no evil effect come from this Debate to-night, and there is no reason why there should.
I have just referred to the effect, as at any rate stated by the Commission, upon public opinion in Palestine of what they regard as the one-sided nature of the attitude that in the past this House and other

2351
bodies in this country have taken towards the Palestinian problem, and I hope the House will accept what I say, as one having some knowledge of the Arab people. They do most deeply feel, rightly or wrongly, that to some extent —and the more reasonable of them admit that it is unavoidable—the dice are loaded against them, because of this fact, that they have no representatives in this House, that there are no men of Arab race in this House, and that there is no Arab vote in this country. That is a physical fact which cannot be got over. At the same time, I must express some regret that in the speeches to-night some bias has been shown against these Arabs as Arabs, [Interruption.] Let me put it in this way, that there has been some bias shown towards the Jewish case. I think it is inevitable, and I am not complaining of it, but it is necessary that anyone speaking for the Government should make it clear that this House and this country must approach this problem as they approached the Hindu-Moslem problem in India, with absolute impartiality, without fear or favour, without any regard to the feelings of any section of the people of this country, but purely from the point of view of trying to see justice done. It is very necessary that that should be made abundantly clear.
Let me turn from that to what has been said about the Administration. Some very hard things have been said about the Palestinian Administration, and I quite agree that if you take only certain paragraphs in the Report of the Commission, you can apply unqualified condemnation to everything done by Sir Arthur Wauchope and by his predecessors and the whole of the Administration since they have been out there. That is not so. I would call the attention of the House to this paragraph, which I wanted the right hon. Gentleman opposite to quote, but for some reason he did not do so. It is paragraph 66 on page 204:
"If, however, we are asked whether we can with confidence recommend these measures as a solution of the problem of insecurity, truth compels us to say that, with all the difficulties that many of these measures entail and the unfortunate results attending their application, we could at best regard them, not as a permanent remedy, but only as temporary measures designed to prevent a recurrence of open rebellion and to give the Jews that protection which, under the Mandate, they have a right to expect."
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The last paragraph should be considered by everybody, including the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill):
"The immediate effect would be to widen the gulf that separates the Arab from the Jew, with repercussions spreading far beyond the borders of Palestine."
In other words, what in fact the Commission's Report says—you can accept it or reject it as you like—is that the mere use of force and repression to deal with the situation would not be a permanent solution of the problem. I do not want to be controversial, and I hope that at the end of the Debate we may agree on the course that we shall take, but I must say I am astonished at some of the arguments I have heard, not only in this Debate but in previous Debates on this question. I should have thought that it was generally agreed that where you had a whole race, a community, bitterly opposed to a certain course of action, you could not make them like that action merely by using force. It is contrary to the whole teaching and policy of the past 30 years, in this country at least, to impose upon any homogeneous community a course of action of which they do not approve. I thought the whole House was agreed, and I hear with astonishment—
Mr. Churchill: The Noble Lord is ignoring past history.
Earl Winterton: I do not want to get into controversy with my right hon. Friend, but, on the contrary, the exact opposite is the case, because what is the gist of the Commission's Report? They say that the history of the past 17 years has shown that every effort that has been made to deal with the situation has failed to convince a single Arab that under the present mandatory system they would get a fair deal. They point out that it is not the fault of the Administration but of the conditions under which the Administration have to work. I admire the great sincerity of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), but I am surprised that he should have adopted the attitude he has in this matter. I always thought that it was a cardinal matter of faith with him that any backward indigenous race, clinging desperately to its ancient mode of life and infructuous in agriculture, roused his enthusiastic support.
Colonel Wedgwood: They will always have my support against landlords and exploiters.
Earl Winterton: That is exactly the answer which I hoped the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was going to make. It is the point I wished to make. A cardinal feature of the arguments of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and some other hon. Members opposite is a belief that the opposition on the part of the Arabs is confined to a few effendis and a few landlords. That statement used to be made in the past. It is obvious that the Commission do not hold that view, and it is obvious to anyone who visits Palestine that it is not so. Let me say frankly that I think there is the same mood among the Arab people of Palestine as there was among the Southern Irish some years ago—exactly the same.
Colonel Wedgwood: The Commission did not take any evidence from the fellaheen. They hardly went about the country at all.
Earl Winterton: The Royal Commission certainly took evidence. There was the evidence given by Mr. Mansuur on behalf of Arab labour.
Mr. Stephen: He represents nobody except himself.
Earl Winterton: The hon. Member addressed the House at some length and perhaps he will allow me to go on. It cannot be said that the Government have taken an undue amount of time in this Debate. I am the first Member to reply to the Debate for the Government. I cannot agree with the hon. Member. It is not true to say that the Gentleman in question represented nobody but himself. He represents the only organised Arab labour in the country. His evidence was to the effect that Arab labour could not accept the present position and were at one with people of other classes in objecting to Jewish immigration as it stands at present.
That brings me to this question of Jewish immigration. It is a late hour at which to put an arithmetical argument, but I will try to do so. There are in Poland alone, I understand, 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 Jews who would like to emigrate. There are certainly that number in Germany—well, at any rate a large
2354
number in Germany. I should say that the total number on the Continent would not be far short of 5,000,000 or 6,000,000. Is it seriously believed by anyone on those benches or on these that it would be possible in present conditions, or in any conditions, for that number of Jews to be absorbed into Palestine?
Sir A. Sinclair: Emigration would relieve the pressure in Europe.
Earl Winterton: The right hon. Gentleman says that it would relieve the pressure. I do not think anyone can say that the Palestine administration have not done their best to assist immigration. The figures show it. It is really true that someone defended the attitude of this country towards world Jewry. What other country in these circumstances has done as much for the Jews? In what other countries do the Jews have a fairer and squarer deal? And quite rightly so.
Mr. Frankel: What are you annoyed about?
Earl Winterton: I am not in conflict with the hon. Member but there are some members of his race outside the House who may suggest that the British Empire has broken faith with the Jews. We have made a great contribution towards the settlement of this terrible problem, and let me say, in case I have given a contrary impression, that no one can sympathise more than I do with the position of the Jews on the Continent. What I do say is that it is utterly fantastic to suppose that the problem can be solved by Palestine. I would add that the mere fact that world Jewry suffers much, in some cases terrible, persecution has always seemed to me an utterly insufficient reason why its members should be allowed to go in unlimited numbers into Palestine irrespective of the wishes of the Arab inhabitants. There has been a general assumption underlying many of the speeches that the Jews can go to Palestine as a right. That is not so. As my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary pointed out there is a complete difference between the words, carefully chosen, "a Jewish national home in Palestine" and "Palestine as a Jewish national home." There is a complete difference between the two expressions.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping quite rightly emphasised the seriousness of the problem that remains.

2355
I must say, in view of the terrible difficulties, which have been brought out in this Report and made known for the first time, that we on our part have done our very best to fulfil the most difficult promises that were made to the Jews and Arabs. I see that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has come into the House; I would draw attention to the speech which was made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones). I do not want to right hon. Gentleman to think that I agreed with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Caerphilly, but he referred to the cynical levity with which promises were made to both sides 20 years ago.
Mr. James Griffiths: And to the British workers.
Earl Winterton: I do not go as far as the hon. Member for Caerphilly, but I say, with the Commission, that the promises were made in perfect good faith in the belief that they were acceptable and capable of being carried out. Events have proved, in fact, that it was impossible to carry them out under the present system.
Colonel Wedgwood: On condition that we had the assistance of the people to whom we made the promises.
Earl Winterton: Several points with which I have not dealt were raised in various speeches. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Opposition asked a question about the boundaries. The scheme will be presented to the League of Nations with the boundaries suggested in the scheme. It will be open to the Mandates Commission to comment upon those boundaries, and if they accept them it will be necessary for a Boundary Commission to be appointed, and for the greatest care to be taken to see that the boundaries are, in fact, capable of being carried out.
A question was asked by the hon. Member who spoke last on behalf of the Front Bench opposite; he was particularly anxious to know about the ports. I thought it had been made clear by the Colonial Secretary that the proposal suggested in regard to the ports is one which, in the opinion of the Commission, would be most likely to satisfy—I understand
2356
that is their meaning—the economic needs of Palestine. They suggest that by this scheme it would be easier to carry on trade than it would be without the scheme. Obviously it is necessary for both sides to come to a satisfactory conclusion.
That brings me to another point which has been raised, and it is the last substantial point with which I want to deal. It is: How can you suggest for a moment, if these people have failed to get on under the present Mandate, living as they do side by side, that they will be any happier when they live in separate States? The answer to that is to be found in the arguments of the Commission. I should have thought it was a rather jejune question to ask, for the reason that I thought it was generally admitted that there were circumstances when races which were discontented under the rule of another race, or had to share a position with another race, were more satisfied and able to carry out their own destinies if they had a State of their own.
Mr. Morgan Jones: The point is this: If 1,000,000 Arabs cannot live with 400,000 Jews in the whole of Palestine, how can it be argued that 225,000 Arabs can live with 228,000 Jews in the Jewish State?
Earl Winterton: The answer to that question is contained in the Report of the Royal Commission. The Royal Commission have pointed out that under present conditions, under the Mandate, these two races are each striving to prevent the other from getting self-government. The whole object of the Arabs is to prevent the Jews from having a majority, and the whole object of the Jews is to endeavour to get a majority so that they may rule the Arabs under the Mandate. The Royal Commission point out that in these circumstances you cannot hope for anything but a conflict of races, and they recommend the setting up of two separate States, where there will be no question about the Arabs having a majority in the one and the Jews in the other. That is the whole essence of the scheme.
Mr. Morgan Jones: I challenge the Noble Lord to contradict this statement, that, while the Jews are to be prohibited from entering the Arab State, Arabs are not to be prohibited from entering the Jewish State, and it is not possible to guarantee what will be the effect, as regards peace, of these large numbers of Arabs in the Jewish State.
Earl Winterton: It is believed by the Royal Commission that the altered conditions, under which each race will work out its own destiny in its own State, will be fairer to the minorities in both States. The question of transfer is still in a very tentative state, but I should hope that no one on either side of the House would say that the scheme is a bad one. The Report suggests that, on the analogy of what occurred with the Greek and Turkish minorities after the War, when there was a very satisfactory transfer of minorities from one territory to another, something of the same kind could be done in Palestine, and that it might lead to a solution of the minorities question. Obviously this must be carefully considered in the greatest detail by the Mandates Commission. I wish to emphasise and make it clear that the Government stand by the proposals in the White Paper, which in themselves recommend to the Mandates Commission at Geneva the proposals of the Royal Commission's Report. The Government are willing to accept the Amendment to the Opposition Amendment with some slight alteration of the wording, but they want to make it quite clear that, if they receive the consent of the House, as I hope they will, and naturally I hope it will be given without a vote, unanimously, the proposals which are outlined in the White Paper will be taken by my right hon. Friend before the Mandates Commission at Geneva on 30th July.
I am authorised by the Prime Minister and the Colonial Secretary to say that whatever happens at Geneva—it must be hoped that the Mandates Commission will accept the proposals—there will be the fullest opportunity for this House to consider the scheme in all its details. But I must add this word. I cannot believe that in the present circumstances and with the dangerous material which there is about in Palestine, it would be in the slightest degree desirable that there should be any suggestion of delay in making these proposals at Geneva. It is very necessary that both sides should know that the Government within a week are going to put these proposals forward to the League, and when the League, as we hope, has accepted them, they will be returned to this House with the fullest opportunity on both sides of the House to discuss them.
Mr. Stephen: Will the Noble Lord give me an answer to the specific question of whether the Government will consider the transfer of the Mandate to the United States?
11.52 p.m.
Mr. Gallacher: I rise as an absolute opponent of partition. I have heard Members talk about the Palestinians as though they had no right to Palestine, but we can never solve this question unless the basic right of the Palestinians to Palestine is understood right from the start. That is very important. There can he co-operation only if the Jewish people will recognise that basic right. But if you have a situation where the Zionists, who are not representing the interests of the Jewish people but who represent a particular political trend, say, "Yes, we will meet round a table with the Arabs," but always with the understanding that the Jews must get a majority in Palestine, to talk about meeting round a table is utterly futile. We have had people say in the House that in no circumstances will the Zionist movement consider anything else but a majority of Jews in Palestine. That can never bring us understanding. I want to direct the attention of Members, particularly my Jewish friends, to the fact that partition is the greatest menace that can face the Jewish people at the moment. When the whole of Europe is being stirred up in the most criminal, dastardly and vicious manner against these people, who have made a contribution to civilisation of which they can be proud, are we to have a situation where the people with whom they have lived in amity for centuries are to be stirred up against them? It is going to encourage all the Jew-baiting and all the anti-Semitism that is being developed in Europe. Immediately they go over there, these people who for centuries have never known anti-Semitism will begin to develop it. The Jewish people reached their highest point in contributing towards the advance of civilisation and developing their own civilisation in conjunction with the Mohamedans in Spain, and the lesson of Spain and the part that the Jews played there should be borne in mind by Jews in every part of the world now. I appeal to the masses of men and women in the Zionist movement to understand the terrible situation that

2359
confronts the Jewish people. Let the Zionists make an arrangement with the Arabs. [Interruption.] A wonderful sense of humour and such a fine spirit of toleration! They even have the impudence to tell me I am tolerated. I am a Member of this House and I represent a constituency. If it were some admiral or Noble Lord speaking or interrupting, would they say he was tolerated? The impertinence of telling me I am tolerated!
I make this appeal to Zionists throughout the world. If they come to an understanding with the Arabs and bring about a united Palestine, they will make a contribution to the progress of culture and civilisation such as they did in Spain. If we are going to support the Jews let us do it without antagonising the Arabs, but I make this appeal as strongly as I can, as one who has been associated with the Jewish people for many years and has a knowledge of Jewish traditions and history for the building up of a great independent State in Palestine where the Jewish people will shine forth as they did in the great days of Spain, and so help in the struggle to free those in Europe who are suffering under the terror of anti-Semitism.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
12.1 a.m.
Mr. Churchill: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 1, to leave out from the word "proposals" to the end of the proposed Amendment, and to add:
"contained in Command Paper No. 5513 relating to Palestine should he brought before the League of Nations with a view to enabling His Majesty's Government, after adequate inquiry, to present to Parliament a definite scheme in accordance with the policy as set out in the Command Paper."
I do not propose to offer any further remarks to the House upon the subject, as I have already been permitted to take part in the earlier part of the Debate.
12.2 a.m.
Mr. Lloyd George: It is extremely desirable that we should not go to a Division upon this question if we can possibly avoid it. I think it would be injurious to the interests of the British Empire, and
2360
it certainly would be injurious to the prospects of peace in Palestine. Therefore, I am going to venture to make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend to eliminate certain words and to substitute others. We have been invited to give a mandate to the Colonial Secretary to go to the League to propose a scheme in accordance with the policy as set out in the Command Paper. That is controversial. I can well understand that he certainly cannot throw over the Report of the Commission—that would be asking too much in the circumstances—but I understand that he proposes that there should be an investigation there into all the relevant facts before the League of Nations are invited or asked to come to any decision with regard to it. It might very well be that, after an investigation into all these conditions, and especially after seeing both parties, some other alternative would be acceptable to both and preferable to the one which is recommended by the Commission. We do not want to tie our hands or to tie his hands beforehand by saying to him that these instructions are to carry out the policy of the Command Paper.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Of the Royal Commission.
Mr. Lloyd George: To carry out merely the policy of the Royal Commission. Therefore, I suggest words which certainly do not throw over, and will not invite the House of Commons to throw over, the Report of the Commission, but, on the other hand, do not tie his hands or the hands of the Mandates Commission to accept that policy and not to accept something better, if, as a result of investigation and negotiation, something better comes out of it. Therefore, I propose that we should eliminate the words "in accordance with the policy as set out in the Command Paper," and to substitute:
"taking into full account all the recommendations of the Command Paper,"
so that the right hon. Gentleman will go there with his Papers and will put a policy before the Mandates Commission. Then there will be investigation into all the circumstances, and if, as a result of those investigations and the conversations that will naturally take place, something else comes out that is satisfactory to all parties, his hands are not tied. I would therefore like to suggest this.
Mr. Churchill: For the convenience of the House and with the wish of the House, I should be perfectly ready to move my Amendment in this revised form.
12.6 a.m.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I never asked the House, and it would be unfair to do so, nor did I suggest, that I or they should be tied to the proposals of the Royal Commission. While we do attach importance to the short White Paper that sets out the Government's general line, we do not wish to be debarred by any resolution from going before the Mandates Commission and discussing any point raised, and telling the Mandates Commission that, as at present advised, His Majesty's Government do think that their White Paper is the best line of policy to pursue. Quite clearly, long before the House of Commons is committed to a scheme it must be in definite form.
The President of the League Council has already invited the Mandates Commission to give a preliminary view to the Council, and it is that preliminary view which we regard as essential if we are to get into further touch with Jews and Arabs and the various countries and interests concerned, in order to get a policy for the future government of Palestine to advance. So I say that we do not seek to be tied to details. We have declared that it is our general line. On that understanding—and I think this is contained in the wording proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)—that I am not tied, and not debarred by anything which is said to-night, I think we can all accept that. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we should go before the Commission with a united House of Commons, when we come to the most complex discussion that will arise on this subject.
12.9 a.m.
Mr. Attlee: What the right hon. Gentleman said went very far to meet the difficulty which many of us have felt. Our objection to the Amendment as put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) had relation to the question of binding this House to a decision here and now to accept partition; this is putting it shortly. Our intention was to accept the general policy; we did not want this House, when it came back, to be met with a Govern-
2362
ment saying: "You sent us off with a Mandate to the Commission and tied us down to the acceptance of partition." Our point has been not in any way to try to get a party vote on this subject. We are solely concerned with having the best possible way of meeting this position in the interests of the Arab people, the Jewish people and the whole world. If this House is not tied at this moment to acceptance of the principle of the White Paper, the Government are, of course, free to take action. That is a way I think this House will want.
12.10 a.m.
Mr. Buchanan: On a point of Order. What is it that we have now before us? I understood that we had an Amendment to the original Labour Amendment, moved by the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). May I ask what is now before us, so that we may know what we are discussing?
Mr. Speaker: The Motion before the House is, of course, the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping. Certain questions have, in the course of the Debate on that Motion, given rise to the discussion which is now taking place.
Mr. Buchanan: We have been told that the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Epping does not satisfy us. What then is before us?
Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Member for Epping has agreed to accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and to put his Amendment, if that is the will of the House, in an amended form. The hon. Member need be in no doubt, therefore, as to what is before the House.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment: In line 1, to leave out from the word "proposals," to the end of the proposed Amendment, and to add:
"contained in Command Paper No. 5513 relating to Palestine should be brought before the League of Nations with a view to enabling His Majesty's Government, after adequate inquiry, to present to Parliament a definite scheme taking into full account all the recommendations of the Command Paper."—[Mr. Churchill.]

2363
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
12.13 a.m.
Mr. Buchanan: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
I do not see any other way of dealing with the course we are now taking. What is the position? For a full day we have been debating the Opposition Amendment to the Government's Motion and then at 20 minutes past 10 we were given nothing more than a verbal notice by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) that he intended to amend it, and now we are told after midnight that this verbal notice is to be amended by another verbal notice—all in regard to putting into force the most important policy with which this country has had to deal possibly during the present Parliament. The Amendment we are now to decide upon is not the Motion on the Paper and we have not been able to examine the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and all its implications. We should like to see exactly what those implication are. I heard the Noble Lord's answer for the Government and his concluding words were that they wanted to leave no one in doubt that they were on the side of the Royal Commission. The Colonial Secretary now says that provided certain things are understood, he will accept the revised Amendment. What we ought to do is to adjourn the Debate and to consider the wording suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs in order to see whether those words fit in properly with his plan. We ought not to proceed on the basis of verbal assurances given across the Floor of the House. The Amendment ought to be placed on the Paper, and the House ought to insist on its rights. I venture to suggest that hon. Members do not know what they are passing. What will happen after this revised Amendment is passed?
Mr. Messer: We shall go home.
Mr. Buchanan: May I say to the hon. Member who interrupted me that the need of his presence is not so great that anybody prevents him from going home?
Mr. Messer: As I interrupted my hon. Friend, may I explain that I did not
2364
intend to be offensive? I hope my hon. Friend will accept that assurance.
Mr. Buchanan: Nor did I intend to be offensive, and if I said anything offensive, equally I withdraw it. If the revised Amendment is accepted, what will it mean? The right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary has said that he accepts it on certain understandings. Those understandings ought to be incorporated definitely in the Amendment, otherwise when the right hon. Gentleman comes back from Geneva, there will immediately be an argument that he has not carried out the Amendment, and he will say that there were certain understandings. The position is that we debated a Government Motion, which was suddenly flung overboard; the Amendment moved by the Official Opposition was amended by a verbal Amendment, and now the verbal Amendment is further amended by another verbal Amendment, that amended Amendment being accepted by the Colonial Secretary subject to certain restrictions. I maintain that it would be better for all concerned that the Amendment which we are now discussing should be definitely placed on the Paper and that, if necessary, the Government should take it up in a proper fashion. If opinion is as unanimous as it is thought, it would be passed to-morrow without any discussion. But in the interests of the House and in the interests of proper procedure, the Debate ought to be adjourned now, and the Amendment put on the Paper.
12.18 a.m.
Mr. Maxton: I wish to support the Motion moved by my hon. Friend. It may be that the House is absolutely united on this matter, but we want to see that that is so first. There are certainly many circumstances in which I could conceive that this procedure would lead to most appalling results. I think that the House would be committing itself to a very bad precedent if it allowed this cross-talk way of doing business to become an established practice in our proceedings.
12.19 a.m.
Mr. Herbert Morrison: I think that possibly there is a slight misunderstanding among a number of hon. Members as to the position we are now in. The position is that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) moved an Amendment, with the terms of

2365
which I think hon. Members generally are familiar. That Amendment would by implication approve the White Paper, and by further implication, the recommendations of the Royal Commission. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) suggested that the words which approve in principle the Report of the Royal Commission and the White Paper should be omitted, and that words which merely ask that the League of Nations should deliberate on the matter, taking into account the White Paper, should go in. The importance of the change is, from our point of view, that approval has gone and "taking into account" has been substituted. The right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary, I am afraid, caused some apprehension among my hon. Friends on the back benches on this side as a result somewhat of the emphasis that he placed upon the desire of His Majesty's Government to go to Geneva and themselves to urge the policy of the Royal Commission and the White Paper—
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow—
Mr. Morrison: If the right hon. Gentleman will leave it to me, I think we shall be all right. We are not objecting—we cannot object—to His Majesty's Government going to Geneva after consulting this House, and saying what they believe to be right as a body of Ministers. Any Government must have that right, anywhere, to express opinions in which they believe. What I am concerned about, and what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition is concerned about, is that His Majesty's Government, in urging at Geneva the policy in which they believe, which they are perfectly entitled to do, should not at the same time urge that policy with the authority and assent of the House of Commons, nor should they do it with any implied authority or assent of the Opposition in this House. The right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary and His Majesty's Government believe in that policy which they have urged upon the House, and they will go to Geneva on their own responsibility and urge it there. The right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary will understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) expressed the opinion of the Labour Party on that Report?
2366
The Amendment which I hope will now be agreed to by the House discusses the situation after the Debate. The House of Commons, as such, is not committed. The Government have honestly told us what their opinion is and what line they propose to pursue. We have equally honestly told the Government what we think. We adhere to the opinions which we have expressed, and the House of Commons as a corporate body is not committed upon the matter. When the Government have been to Geneva and expressed whatever views they think it right to express—and the right hon. Gentleman has indicated frankly what views he will express—something will come back to the House of Commons, and the House of Commons will then remain unfettered and will come to a proper and free conclusion upon the recommendations which then, after the discussions at Geneva, His Majesty's Government may submit to the House. I think that is a fair summary of the position. The alternative before my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was that the House could have gone to a Division, and something would have been carrried which would be far more objectionable to us than what is going to be carried now, and I suggest that this is not an unreasonable and not an un-British way of arriving at a conclusion.
Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned":
The House proceeded to a Division, and Mr. SPEAKER stated that he thought the "Noes" had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision to rise in their places, and he declared the "Noes" had it, six Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
The House proceeded to a Division, and Mr. SPEAKER stated that he thought the "Noes" had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision to rise in their places, and he declared the "Noes" had it, four Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.

2367
Question put, "That those words be there added."
The House proceeded to a Division, and Mr. SPEAKER stated that he thought the "Ayes" had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared the "Ayes" had it, three Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.
Mr. Buchanan: On a point of Order. Is there any opportunity or any way in which the three Members who voted in the contrary manner in the last vote, which we consider to have been the most important vote, can have our names recorded as having been against the Motion?
Mr. Speaker: No. There is no way of having the names recorded, but no doubt the numbers might be.
Mr. Maxton: On that point of Order. Is it not possible for the OFFICIAL REPORT to record the fact that the hon. Members for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), and Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) voted on this Motion?
Mr. Speaker: No doubt the hon. Member's speech will appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Proposed words, as amended, there added.
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That the proposals contained in Command Paper No. 5513 relating to Palestine should be brought before the League of Nations with a view to enabling His Majesty's Government, after adequate inquiry, to present to Parliament a definite scheme taking into full account all the recommendations of the Command Paper."

MILK (AMENDMENT) BILL.
As amended, considered.
CLAUSE 1.—(Extension of periods for Exchequer payments under ss. 1, 2 and 3 of principal Act.)
12.28 a.m.
The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. W. S. Morrison): I beg to move, in page 1, line 19, after "sections," to insert:
"and of sections five and six of this Act."
2368
This Amendment and those Amendments which follow it are purely drafting and consequential.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.—(Extension of periods for payments to Exchequer under s. 5 of principal Act.)
Amendment made:
In page 2, line 6, after "five," insert:
"and of section five of this Act."
CLAUSE 5.—(Amendment of definition of cheese-milk price and provision for butter-milk price.)
Amendments made:
In page 4, line 14, leave out from beginning, to "in," in line 18.
In line 18, leave out "such."
In line 18, leave out "before," and insert:
"between the end of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-seven, and the beginning of."
CLAUSE 8.—(Minor and Consequential Amendments.)
Amendments made:
In page 5, line 23, after "the," insert "First."
In line 28, after "the," insert "First."—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]
CLAUSE 9.—(Short title, construction and citation.)
Amendment made: In page 5, line 36, at the end, insert:
"(2) The enactment specified in the Second Schedule to this Act shall be repealed to the extent mentioned in the third column of that Schedule."—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]

NEW SCHEDULE.—(Provisions Repealed in Principal Act.)

Session and Chapter.

Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

24 & 25 Geo. 5, c. 51

The Milk Act, 1934

In section one, in paragraph (2), the words "by virtue of the terms of the contract"; in section four, in subsection (1), paragraph (a), and subsections (2) and (3); in section twelve, in subsection (1), in paragraph (e), the words "for the purposes of the last foregoing section."

[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]

Brought up, and read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
SCHEDULE.—(Minor and consequential Amendments of Principal Act.)
Amendments made:
In page 7, leave out lines 31 to 33.
In page 8, leave out lines 2 to 6.
In page 9, leave out lines 12 to 14.—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]
Bill to be read the Third time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 210.]

LONDON NAVAL TREATY BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2.—(Short title, construction, citation and commencement.)
12.33 a.m.
The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Duff Cooper): I beg to move, in page 2, line 38, to leave out Sub-section (2).
2370
There are other Amendments standing in my name. These Amendments are purely drafting Amendments and are due to the fact that the Bill is coming into force on a later date than that for which it was originally drafted. They have only been introduced to bring the Bill up to date. It was expected that the Bill would come into force at the end of last year and therefore these Amendments have been moved.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

PREAMBLE.
Amendments made:
In page 1, line 7, leave out "are," and insert "have."
In line 8, leave out from "Treaty," to the end of line 9, and insert "expired."—[Mr. Cooper.]
Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.

ARMY AND AIR EXPENDITURE, 1935.
Resolutions reported:
1. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1936, that the aggregate Expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Army Services over the net Expenditure is £384,128 12s. 2d., namely:

SCHEDULE.

Deficits.

Surpluses.

No. of Vote.

Army Services, 1935, Votes.

Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

£ s. d.

£ s. d.

£ s. d.

£ s. d.

1

Pay, etc., of the Army …

—

7,190 3 11

98,637 1 5

—

2

Territorial Army and Reserve Forces.

—

—

55,848 17 9

437 9 8

3

Medical Services

—

—

4,078 11 7

11,524 5 8

4

Educational Establishments

6,415 12 5

—

—

9,940 19 5

5

Quartering and Movements

—

332,035 8 6

365,595 10 4

—

6

Supplies, Road Transport, and Remounts.

136,765 1 2

—

—

18,514 5 5

7

Clothing

16,927 3 10

—

—

4,411 3 9

8

General Stores

133,841 18 8

—

—

35,214 6 8

9

Warlike Stores

—

—

252,222 5 11

27,583 15 11

10

Works, Buildings and Lands.

—

—

89,104 9 8

28,275 12 10

11

Miscellaneous Effective Services.

—

14,316 9 0

3,999 12 8

—

12

War Office

—

—

5,75 8 7

1,002 0 11

13

Half-Pay, Retired Pay, and other Non-effective Charges for Officers.

—

486 9 7

12,843 3 0

—

14

Pensions and other Non-effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, Men, and Others.

—

—

14,501 7 6

1,476 17 8

15

Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Gratuities.

6,857 6 0

—

—

230 7 4

—

Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned.

2,229 8 5

—

—

—

303,036 10 6

354,028 11 0

902,582 8 5

138,611 5 3

Total Deficits

£657,065 1 6

Total Surpluses

£1,041,193 13 8

Net Surplus …

£384,128 12 2

11. Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1936, that the aggregate Expenditure on Air Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer
2372

£ s. d.

Total Surpluses

…

1,041,193 13 8

Total Deficits

…

657,065 1 6

Net Surplus

…

£384,128 12 2

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.
1. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
Grants for Air Services over the net Expenditure is £80,814 15s. 1d., namely:

£ s. d.

Total Surpluses

…

154,394 9 3

Total Deficits

…

73,579 14 2

Net Surplus

…

180,814 15 1

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Ser-

SCHEDULE.

Deficits.

Surpluses.

No. of Vote.

Air Services, 1935, Votes.

Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

1

Pay, etc., of the Royal Air Force.

—

—

39,178

16

3

10,931

1

7

2

Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Supplies, and Transportation.

5,474

14

4

—

—

307

5

6

3

Technical and Warlike Stores (including Experimental and Research Services.)

50,824

9

11

—

—

12,779

9

4

4

Works, Buildings, and Lands.

—

9,292

14

8

44,807

13

3

—

5

Medical Services

3,079

9

9

—

—

1,807

8

1

6

Technical Training and Educational Services.

—

—

7,551

3

4

146 17 9

7

Auxiliary and Reserve Forces.

—

—

14,122

7

7

71

1

10

8

Civil Aviation

—

414

11

6

18,115

7

2

—

9

Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services.

—

—

527

18

6

1,480

4

4

10

Air Ministry

4,022

0

2

—

—

1,545

19

11

11

Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-effective Services.

—

—

890

4

6

131

10

4

—

Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned.

471

13

10

—

—

—

63,872

8

0

9,707

6

2

125,593

10

7

29,200

18

8

Total Deficits

£73,579

14

2

Total Surpluses

£154,394

9

3

Net Surplus …

£80,814

15

1

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
2374
vices as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Air Services.
2. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twenty-four Minutes before One o'Clock a.m.

TRANSPORT.
  SELBY BY-PASS SCHEME.
  SELBY BY-PASS SCHEME.
  CHERTSEY ARTERIAL ROAD.
  CHERTSEY ARTERIAL ROAD.
  MOTOR VEHICLES (CONSTRUCTION AND USE) REGULATIONS.
  MOTOR VEHICLES (CONSTRUCTION AND USE) REGULATIONS.
  LONDON TRAFFIC REQUIREMENTS (REPORT).
  LONDON TRAFFIC REQUIREMENTS (REPORT).
  RAILWAY TRACKS.
  RAILWAY TRACKS.
  LORRIES (ACCIDENTS).
  LORRIES (ACCIDENTS).
  TRUNK ROADS ACT (CONSULTING ENGINEERS).
  TRUNK ROADS ACT (CONSULTING ENGINEERS).
  GREAT NORTH ROAD (CONGESTION).
  GREAT NORTH ROAD (CONGESTION).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT.
  MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT.
  EX-SERVICE CLERKS.
  EX-SERVICE CLERKS.
  COAL INDUSTRY (OIL EXTRACTION).
  COAL INDUSTRY (OIL EXTRACTION).
  SUMMARY JURISDICTION COURTS (PROBATION).
  SUMMARY JURISDICTION COURTS (PROBATION).
  BASTARDY ACT.
  BASTARDY ACT.
  FACTORIES BILL (EMPLOYMENT OF JUVENILES).
  FACTORIES BILL (EMPLOYMENT OF JUVENILES).
  AIR RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  AIR RAID PRECAUTIONS.
  SANDBLASTING (REGULATIONS).
  SANDBLASTING (REGULATIONS).
  RANELAGH CLUB (FIREWORKS DISPLAY).
  RANELAGH CLUB (FIREWORKS DISPLAY).
  IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY.
  IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY.
  TRAMP SHIPPING.
  TRAMP SHIPPING.
  SPAIN.
  SPAIN.
  VACCINATION (LYMPH).
  VACCINATION (LYMPH).
  INDIAN MUSEUM.
  INDIAN MUSEUM.
SCOTLAND.
  MENTAL INSTITUTIONS.
  MENTAL INSTITUTIONS.
  MILK PRICES.
  MILK PRICES.
  AGRICULTURE (PIGS).
  AGRICULTURE (PIGS).
  CROWN LANDS (FOREST OF MACCLESFIELD).
  CROWN LANDS (FOREST OF MACCLESFIELD).
ROYAL NAVY.
  GIBRALTAR (DOCK ACCOMMODATION).
  GIBRALTAR (DOCK ACCOMMODATION).
  BATTLESHIPS (GUN CALIBRE).
  BATTLESHIPS (GUN CALIBRE).
  SHORE LEAVE.
  SHORE LEAVE.
  DOCKYARDS (CASUAL WORKERS).
  DOCKYARDS (CASUAL WORKERS).
  DEFENCE (GIBRALTAR).
  DEFENCE (GIBRALTAR).
  SUPREME COURT (SHORTHAND WRITERS).
  SUPREME COURT (SHORTHAND WRITERS).
POST OFFICE.
  WIRELESS SETS (ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE).
  WIRELESS SETS (ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE).
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (CHARGES).
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (CHARGES).
  INDIA (PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES).
  INDIA (PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES).
  PALESTINE.
  PALESTINE.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (LOCAL AUTHORITIES EXPENDITURE).
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (LOCAL AUTHORITIES EXPENDITURE).
  SEAMEN, LIVERPOOL.
  SEAMEN, LIVERPOOL.
  VOCATIONAL TRAINING (SOLDIERS).
  VOCATIONAL TRAINING (SOLDIERS).
  FERNDALE, PORTH, TONYPANDY AND TREORCHY.
  FERNDALE, PORTH, TONYPANDY AND TREORCHY.
  GRIMSBY.
  GRIMSBY.
  MALAYA (COST OF LIVING).
  MALAYA (COST OF LIVING).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The EARL OF LUCAN on the Woolsack.

GRANTS FOR BRACKEN-CUTTING IN SCOTLAND.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD THE EARL OF MANSFIELD rose to ask His Majesty's Government if they will state the reason why grants for bracken-cutting in Scotland are given only for cutting done by machines, and not for that done by manual labour; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, your Lordships have a fairly full programme before you this afternoon with the consideration of the important Motion standing in the name of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, and the adjourned debate upon Palestine. Therefore I do not wish to take up more of your Lordships' time than is absolutely necessary before you go on to these matters of much wider importance. At the same time the question I am raising to-day is one that affects very seriously a considerable number of the smaller stock-breeders in Scotland. The position is that during the last two years bracken has been increasing in Scotland very rapidly, with the result that a large amount of good grazing land has become useless, or practically useless, and a considerably larger amount seems likely to follow suit unless something drastic is done. The causes of this large increase are somewhat obscure, but there is one which I think is pretty generally recognised as being at any rate one of the principal contributory causes. That is, that cattle no longer graze the hills of Scotland as they used to do up to, say, a century or less ago. Cattle will eat bracken with considerable pleasure, but sheep will not look at it at all.
The simplest way of eradicating bracken is by cutting it over when the young fronds appear above the ground and repeating that process a short time later. If this is done for a year or two the bracken is diminished, sometimes to vanishing point, but at least to a point at which it is no longer a serious problem. A short time ago the Government, realising the seriousness and the importance of the problem, very wisely and rightly made
738
grants to assist this cutting. But those grants have attached to them certain conditions the cause for which no one in Scotland understands. In brief, the grants are given only for cutting which is done by mechanical means and not for cutting by scythes or other hand appliances. There are a number of mechanical devices on the market to-day, the main principle of all of them being, I believe, that a bar, either solid or else composed of several sections jointed together, is attached to chains and dragged by horses over the ground among the young bracken thereby destroying the shoots.
So far, so good. But, unfortunately, there is a large amount of bracken-infested land in Scotland on which such appliances cannot be used because in many cases the ground is too stony or else the side of the hill is too steep. Besides that, many smaller sheep owners find it a matter of considerable difficulty to purchase these machines and also find it difficult to provide a horse to draw it. Some do not own horses at all and others who do own horses have Clydesdales, which are-admirably suited for their particular purpose but not for drawing a mechanical instrument over a rough hillside. The result is that an injustice, no doubt unintentionally, is being inflicted upon many of these smaller stock-holders. No one is able to understand why there should be this differentiation. I hope the noble Lord who replies will be able to give some satisfactory reason for this apparently unjustifiable discrimination. I beg to move.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL): My Lords, the noble Earl has raised a question which is one undoubtedly of great importance and interest to those of us who live North of the Tweed. The spread of what is known as the bracken pest has undoubtedly become very serious in the last few years and, as the noble Earl has explained, is a matter of concern to all sheep farmers. To that extent I have no doubt it is a serious matter in England and Wales as well as in Scotland. In this case, too, I think it is hard to resist the temptation to claim, as occurred in another instance to which some of your Lordships may have listened in the early hours of this morning, that Scotland is once again ahead of England. We, as the noble Earl has explained, have taken steps in Scotland to tackle this question

739
for some time. The Department of the Scottish Office concerned have been considering this problem, and it has exercised the minds of agriculturists and others for many years. An investigation was commenced in 1928, and carried on for six years, which it was hoped would provide a biological solution to the problem. A fungoid disease had been found which was attacking and killing large patches of bracken. Efforts were made in this investigation, by placing diseased material and plants in healthy areas of bracken, to induce the disease to attack and destroy the healthy bracken. After some years of experiment, however, the pathologist in charge of the work reported that the attempt to spread the fungoid bracken disease artificially had met with little or no success.
Thereafter, following upon renewed representations by various associations, it was decided that the most practical way of resuming the attack on the problem was by investigation into the possibility of improving existing accepted methods of cutting bracken by hand, or by obtaining full information on the possibility of introducing other methods and by testing them. So, by a process which was slow but sure, we came to the time when the bracken cutter as a machine was introduced. The point which the noble Earl raises in his Question, of which he was good enough to give me private notice, is why the authorities concerned could not be prepared to give a grant to hand cutting of bracken in the same way as a grant is given to machine cutting.
I think the answer can best be expressed in this way. First of all, the financial cost of giving a grant for hand cutting would be very considerable, and indeed, in our consideration, highly impracticable, because it would be difficult to give a sufficient grant to cover the numerous applications that would be made for it. At least as many applicants would be dissatisfied as under the present scheme. Further, it is quite obvious that if such a grant were given for the hand-cutting of the bracken it would require an army of special inspectors to be employed to investigate applications from all parts of the country, including, of course, the Highlands and Islands. Those inspectors would have to certify that the bracken had been cut in accordance with
740
the prescribed conditions and that a certain grant was therefore due. It is extremely doubtful if such an organisation could be made reasonably practicable, and probably the expenses of inspection would often exceed the amount of the grant. So we come to the present system whereby a grant is made for machine cutting.
About this I think there is sometimes a certain amount of misconception. This is really an educational scheme, to encourage both the creation and the production of machines suitable for this purpose, and to study the results of their work. The purpose of this financial assistance, which, as I say, is primarily educative, is to stimulate modern invention to find out reliable methods for destroying bracken more quickly and more cheaply than by the old and well-understood method of man and scythe to which the noble Earl referred. That is as far as the Government think it would be right to go in the matter at present. They have in addition an expert Committee which examines and tests methodically every year every new machine that is submitted to it. Thereafter the applicant for a machine receives a grant either for the hiring of the machine or towards the purchase of that machine. Bracken cutting by that machine has to be done under conditions prescribed by the Department. It might be of interest to your Lordships to know that last year forty-nine of these machines were purchased under the Department's scheme, by which it is estimated that about—it is impossible to be definite in giving this figure—8,000 acres were cut. In 1937 the Department had approved grants in respect of sixty-nine additional machines, and it is estimated that the area to be cut this year may be in the neighbourhood of 17,000 acres.
That is really the answer to the Question which the noble Earl put on the Paper. I would repeat that the scheme under which a grant is given for machine-cutting is really for educative and scientific purposes, and, as I have already pointed out to the noble Earl, the suggestion that such a scheme should be passed on to hand cutting is entirely impracticable on, first of all, the ground of finance and on, secondly, the ground of the difficulty of inspection. I hope that with that explanation the noble Earl

741
will realise the difficulty which he raises in this Question, which is certainly one felt all over Scotland but one which I hope will gradually be eradicated as and when the use of machines is more commonly known and the good results produced by these machines are more commonly recognised.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his full and clear reply. I cannot say that I find it satisfactory, but that, of course, is not his fault. Lord Strathcona is in the unfortunate position of having to reply for a Department for which he is in no way responsible. He does it exceedingly adequately, but of course he cannot be expected to take responsibility for these decisions. Very briefly, the position is now seen, in view of what the noble Lord has said, to be quite a different one from what has been hitherto believed in Scotland. It is not a scheme, apparently, to help the ordinary small sheep-farmer; it is merely a scheme for educational purposes which I submit will be of little use other than to the makers of these implements and certain large sheep-farmers in areas sufficiently fortunate to have reasonably flat country.
That is not a position which I can regard as at all satisfactory. I am afraid that I cannot altogether agree with the noble Lord when he states that to enlarge the scope of the grant to hand cutting would be out of the question or too expensive. I shall refer to that in my concluding remarks. What I would point out, however, is that, if this scheme is to remain as an educational scheme and if the grants are to be continued for machine cutting only, it means that this aid will not be available for the greater part of Scotland in which the bracken grows. Education is no good for those areas where it is going to be quite impossible at any time to work any machine which it is likely that the ingenuity of roan can devise.
Naturally I do not for one moment contemplate pressing my Motion for Papers, but before withdrawing it I would like to ask the noble Lord most respectfully if he would convey the following suggestions to the Secretary of State for Scotland. That is to say, that he should consider once more the question of extending the grant to hand plucking, if done on a
742
sufficiently large scale. If in each case it were insisted upon that a very considerable acreage would have to be cut twice a year for a minimum of three years it would then, I think, well pay the cost of inspection, for it is obvious that in rolling country, where a machine can be used, tile inspection there also must be a lengthy and laborious process. If the noble Lord will do as I ask, I hope that the Secretary of State and the Government will see their way to modify their decision, because although undoubtedly this educational scheme may produce some benefits for a limited class, it is certainly not going to do what the agriculturists of Scotland thought and were led to believe it was going to do—namely, to be of great assistance to the small sheep-farmer, the man who needs help more than the large man or the manufacturer, and who at the present time is not going to get it at all.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

INTERNATIONAL TRADE.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE THE MARQUESS OF CREWE had the following Notice on the Order Paper:—To call attention to the statement in the Report of the Imperial Conference, 1937, that the outstanding feature of the discussion on trade was the emphatic desire expressed by the representatives of every part of the British Commonwealth represented at the Conference that all practicable steps should be taken to secure the stimulation of international trade; it being recognised that in the last resort the prosperity of the countries of the Commonwealth depends on that of the world as a whole, and that a healthy growth of international trade, accompanied by an improvement in the general standard of living, is an essential step to political appeasement; and to ask what action is being taken by His Majesty's Government to give practical effect to that declaration, particularly in relation to the economic causes of the present tension in Europe; and to move for Papers.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, my first duty is to express, both on Lord Crewe's account and my own, his regret that he is not able to be in the House to-day to move the Motion which stands in his name, and which he

743
has asked me to move in his place. He has not been very well lately. Although there is nothing serious the matter Lord Crewe has been advised by his doctor not to attempt a speech for a few days, and that is the reason why he is not moving the Motion to-day. It falls, therefore, to me to move the Motion which stands in his name. It is a long Motion, but I do not think it is necessary for me to read it, because it is before your Lordships on the Order Paper. It calls attention, of course, to a very striking phenomenon, which is the almost universal expression of public opinion by the statesmen of the world in favour of a reduction of the barriers to trade, and taking measures to increase international trade. In view of the tremendous tendency towards economic nationalism in the last fifty years that is a very remarkable fact.
I will only read one or two of the most outstanding statements recently made on that subject. The one to which special attention is called in the Motion is that made at the Imperial Conference, which is to be found on pages 21 and 22 of the Summary of Proceedings:
"The outstanding feature of the discussion was the emphatic desire expressed by the representatives of every part of the British Commonwealth represented at the Conference that all practical steps should be taken to secure the stimulation of international trade. It was recognised that in the last resort the prosperity of the countries of the Commonwealth depends on that of the world as a whole and that a healthy growth of international trade, accompanied by an improvement in the general standard of living, is an essential step to political appeasement."
It is a curious commentary that after five years' experience of the Ottawa duties the only reference to those matters to be offered is that "in the last resort the prosperity of the countries of the Commonwealth depends on that of the world as a whole" and that "a healthy growth of international trade" is "essential … to political appeasement."
Only yesterday, or two days ago, the Foreign Secretary, speaking in another place, also made reference to this general thesis. I will only quote two sentences from his review of world conditions:
"The Government believe that the removal of the barriers which at present impede, and at times stop altogether, the course of international trade would be an effective step in the removal of political tension."
744
He went on to say:
"The preliminary discussions now proceeding in Washington with a veiw to seeing whether there is a basis of negotiations for a trade agreement between the United States and the United Kingdom are, of course, welcomed by His Majesty's Government. It is the desire of both Governments that such agreement should be a practical contribution to the development of international trade and the movement for promoting world peace through economic agreements."
That is a statement on behalf of the British Government and, while not couched in quite as enthusiastic terms as those of other Governments, nevertheless it expresses without qualification its recommendation that the improvement of international trade is a necessary condition of relieving the tension of existing international relations.
There was a very remarkable statement given in an interview in the Morning Post by Mr. Norman Davis when he was here only a month ago as representing the United States on the Sugar Conference. He said:
"There will be no political appeasement in Europe without an economic rehabilitation."
Mr. Davis added:
"A political settlement, even if it were possible, would not hold water unless accompanied by a revival of international trade. Currency control, import restrictions, and all the barriers which prevent the free shipment of goods are bottling up the economic forces of countries. The result is that the military forces become more and more active. If you cannot export goods you export armies, and that means war."
That is a very strong statement on the part of the man who had represented, with great success, the Government of the United States on a large number of international coneferences during the last fifteen years.
I do not think it is open to question that one of the first objects of the policy of Mr. Hull and President Roosevelt is to do anything they can to remove those economic barriers to trade which have been the greatest single cause of our international troubles since the War. The United States have at last begun to reverse a policy which they have followed without the slightest change since the Civil War in 1860, that of steadily increasing protectionist duties, except for the reducton made by the Underwood Tariff in 1912. They have now begun to move away from the policy of high protection and have done so because large

745
sections of the people in the United States, notably the farmers, and influential financiers and professors of economics in the Universities, have recognised that the policy of high protectionist duties has been one of the major causes of the depresson which has hurt the United States more than anybody and of all those irremovable masses of unemployment which are perhaps the greatest difficulty which now confront the country.
I do not say that if you put it to the vote in the United States as to whether they wanted to abandon protection for free trade, such a motion would secure a majority of the people; but it is true to say that the policy of Mr. Hull of making trade treaties under the most-favoured-nation clause, the effect of which is that every reduction of tariff made by the United States by treaty with any other country immediately becomes operative in respect of all other countries, has had a very considerable effect already in reducing the general level of the tariff in the United States, and has been carried out with the increasing approval and consent not only of Congress but of the people of the United States at the last Election. I happened to be in the United States last October, and the Republican candidate, speaking in the campaign, expressed strong dissent from the policy of tariff treaties and his intention, if elected, of returning to the traditional Republican policy. Mr. Hull went to Minneapolis and made a most vigorous rejoinder. I have heard it stated by Americans that it was perhaps the most effective piece of debate in the campaign, and resulted in considerable support for Mr. Roosevelt. The policy of the United States is nothing like so protectionist as it was. Whilst they want reciprocal advantages in return for reductions in their own tariff, they are moving steadily to the policy that the interests of the United States and the interests of democracy and world peace are bound up with the reduction of the general level of tariffs in the world, and they themselves are prepared to play their part in bringing about such a result.
I need not quote the many statements made by eminent people like M. van Zeeland, the leaders of the Oslo Powers, and Dr. Schacht, who himself has lent the weight of his great authority to the view that the relaxation of tension in Europe depends on economic relaxation between the Powers. There is really
746
no doubt that practically every statesman in the world now gives public assent to that view. There has been a perfect spate of utterances to that effect during the last three or four months. That, in the view of anybody who holds the views traditional in the Party to which I have the honour to belong, is not surprising. It has all the symptoms of what is sometimes called the "drunkard's repentance." But if you imbibe too freely and too long at the fountain of high protectionism, you finally get those feelings and emotions which are associated with the next morning, and the effects of universal, selfish high protectionism have now begun to come home to roost in a way that is visible and can be felt by every nation in the world.
I said just now that the descent to high protectionism has been perhaps the greatest single cause of all the troubles, both political and economic, which now beset the world. It has produced a dislocation in the traditional channels of trade, the traditional balance between world supply and world demand, the traditional system whereby foreign investment is able to obtain, through the ordinary channels of trade, the annual interest to which it was entitled. Economic nationalism dislocated that process, though the fact was hidden for a time after the War by the policy of the United States in lending vast sums of money to Europe and to South America—a policy which we also adopted, but which finally produced the world depression, a depression which, at its maximum, led to there being no fewer than 30,000,000 unemployed in the industrial countries of the world. The consequences of that are now so familiar that people almost regard them as inevitable. You had profound social discontent in every country in the world, a discontent which, in certain countries, became so acute that it made impossible the functioning of democratic institutions, and led more and more people to the belief that the only way in which law and order could be maintained in their own country was by handing dictatorial and totalitarian powers to its leaders. Economic nationalism has been the biggest single cause of the decline of democracy in the post-War world.
The second result has been that immense extension of Government inter-

747
ference with business and Government control of economic activities with which we are all familiar and of which we have had a great deal of experience in this country. When any country suddenly finds itself confronted with millions of unemployed, with profound dislocation of economic conditions, it is inevitable that people should say that the Government must intervene. But the reason why the Government have to intervene is the prior interference with the normal channels of trade by tariffs, quotas, embargoes, and economic restrictions of every kind. You have now got another phenomenon which is causing grave disquiet in the world, and that is the reappearance, and the natural reappearance, of the demand in one country after another for a share in the Colonial territories of the world. If every country follows the policy of economic nationalism, and if that economic nationalism extends to preference and the closing of the open door of Colonial territories in favour of the country controlling them, it is quite inevitable that countries which are poorly equipped with territories or raw materials or food supplies should insist that they also have the right to share in the exclusive privileges which we have got and other nations have got for themselves. It was one of the glories of the British Imperial system before this change took place that it gave equal access to all countries in the trade of the Dependencies and the Empire. That system in the pre-War world was not a cause of jealousy or suspicion to other countries, but once you began to put barriers in the way of other countries trading with our Dependencies, you immediately got the demand that they should share in the existing privileges.
All these are the primary results of the universal surrender to economic nationalism and high protection. And the classic example of the consequences, the inevitable consequences, the foretold consequences, of this surrender was the great depression. It became utterly impossible ever to solve the internal problem or to meet that Debt obligation which was met quite easily in the days of freer trade, once you had established the various tariffs in the years after the War. That has led to tension and friction which, in turn, have led to rearmament, and to the Colonial demands, so that everybody to-
748
day is once more talking in terms of the impending world war. I venture to say that no one fundamentally denies that. I do not think anybody is prepared to get up to-day and say that economic nationalism is not the chief among the causes which have led the world into the depression. What they do say is that it is part of the law of nature, that it is the inevitable result of national sovereignty and that you cannot do anything about it. Then, as a second line of defence, they say that in a world of high tariffs it is better to have a tariff to protect your own industries than to be open to the unprotected competition of trade all over the world. I think I am speaking for my friends on these Benches when I say that we do not now stand for unilateral free trade, we stand for equality, for co-operative methods to bring down the tariffs of all countries as rapidly as possible.
The question that I want to ask the noble Marquess who leads this House to-day is whether those eloquent statements in favour of increased international trade really mean anything or not. We had them before. We had them generally in the period just preceding a fresh wave of high tariffs, and the question I am asking, and the question which stands in Lord Crewe's name, is whether the Government can give us any information which will convince your Lordships that these declarations are not merely camouflage, that they represent not merely an intention but a faith that, from the contacts we have already established with other nations, something is going to be done in the near future to promote international trade. I am afraid that in this case, as in so many others, fine words butter no parsnips. I have met persons of great distinction not entirely removed from the Front Bench opposite who hold the view that so far from our being able to reduce tariffs, it is only a question of a few months or a year or so when the further dislocations which spring from economic nationalism will lead to a further wave of high tariffs. There are people who hold that view. All I can say is that if the statements which I have quoted, and many others which will spring to your Lordships' minds, are true, that a reduction of the barriers to trade, an increase in international trade, is necessary to the alleviation of international tension, then if, in fact, we are going to

749
experience an aggravation of this economic nationalism—an increase of economic tension—it is going to be impossible, in my view, to avoid another very grave and considerable economic crisis in the world.
If we are going to improve conditions it will be because we are able, in practice, to do something to give effect to the policy now universally demanded by the leaders of the world. But if the Government are going to do that they must make up their mind to resist, at any rate, the cruder fallacies of the protectionist argument. I only mention two. In most countries, if they see a foreign product being sold, an emotional wave surges up that the entry of that foreign product somehow implies that your own industry is being prejudiced. That has never been the traditional view here, though I am afraid that the experience of the last five or six years may have done something to bring it into being. The truth of course is that you have foreign products corning in because you can get them better and cheaper than you can make them at home, and in the normal course you will find your own products travelling to other countries for the same reason. The very core of the protectionist vice is that if anything is coming into a country over the tariff wall the tariff must be put up higher to keep it out. That has been the traditional American view, though, I am glad to say, thanks to Mr. Cordell Hull and President Roosevelt, that view is beginning to be broken down.
I hope the Government will welcome the entry of foreign products into this country provided there is an equivalent outgoing of British products to foreign countries. The second argument is that we must protect ourselves against the products of cheap foreign labour. That is one of the most fraudulent of all the arguments. You have only got to go to one of those so-called cheap labour countries to find that the people there claim they must have Protection because, they argue, how can a nation which has to use its own hands only be able to compete with a nation in which every man has five, six, or ten horses working for him? The result of machine labour is immeasurably cheaper than the result of hand labour, and though in the case of Japan we had a period of competition with new machinery and cheap labour combined, and had a difficult situation
750
to deal with, in the long run the nation with highly equipped machinery will always have an advantage in competition with a nation that has nothing but cheap labour to provide.
There is another reason for pressing the Government to make their declaration of faith. The last of the effects of High Protection are at last coming home to roost in the rise in the cost of living. We have had a very ominous rise in the cost of living, even by the admission of the Ministry of Labour Gazette. Between June 1, 1936, and June 1 1937, the retail prices of food have gone up no less than to per cent., and the increase in all the items that go to make up the cost-of-living figure is no less than 8 per cent. If you look at the returns for the weeks after June 1 you will find that that tendency has steadily increased. If there is going to be one cause of domestic trouble in the world it is going to be if the cost of living rises too rapidly. That is going to be far more serious in countries that do not enjoy the blessings of democracy than in countries that do enjoy them. If you are going to avoid the kind of external explosion which springs from internal tension, one of the most important things you could do is to see that the cost of living remains low for the whole world. The best way to ensure a low cost of the elementary essentials of life is to free the channels of trade so that supply and demand may adjust themselves naturally and thus ensure that as the new demand for food rises it may be met in the cheapest possible way.
I come in conclusion to suggestions as to possible practicable steps. I hope that the noble Viscount who is going to reply to this debate may be able to give us some kind of information or illumination on these points. First of all there has been a demand, especially among all the democracies of the world, that the democratic Governments of the world should take the lead in this matter. If they do not take it no one will. There have been persistent gestures from the United States, persistent demands from the Oslo countries, the Dominions have stressed it at the Imperial Conference, and Belgium has stressed it, that the great democratic countries, among them notably the United States and this country, should take the lead and try to bring about a reversal of this tragic tendency towards high tariffism and economic nationalism, the consequences of

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which I have endeavoured to set forth. That is the first thing. Are the Government going to co-operate with the general democratic demand that the democratic countries should take the lead in this matter?
In the second place can he give me any information as to the prospects of an Anglo-American trade agreement? There is no doubt as to the anxiety and the desire of the United States Government for that agreement. Mr. Eden said yesterday that it was also the policy of the British Government. It is quite clearly the desire of the Dominions, provided of course that that trade agreement does not diminish too much the privileges in this country which they obtained under the Ottawa Treaties. It is remarkable that at the last Imperial Conference they said nothing about perpetuating the Ottawa policy, but did express a strong view in favour of increasing international trade. I do not think there is any dispute of the strength of the view that, if possible, Great Britain should make a trade treaty with the United States. I hope that the Dominions may make it clear that they will also be willing to make their contribution towards making that treaty easy. From the practical point of view there were two major defects in the Ottawa Treaties. There was, first of all, the rigidity of the preferential system which made anything like a reduction in international trade barriers much more difficult and, secondly, the ending of the open-door policy. If the Dominions are ready to be reasonable in that matter, and if the British Government are determined, it should be possible to find a sufficient number of items—I agree it should be a simple matter—under which Great Britain and the United States can each make concessions to one another which would be of mutual advantage to both countries and which could be accepted by either country without feeling that the other was obtaining an undue advantage over the other.
A third point on which I would like to ask the Leader of the House is what is the Government's attitude to the most-favoured-nation clause. We always say that we are among the champions of lower tariffs because we adhere so rigidly to the most-favoured-nation clause. But when you examine the matter you find that other countries are not as convinced
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about our virtue as we are ourselves because in a number of our bilateral treaties we have used the quota system in order in fact to nullify the effect of the most-favoured-nation clause. In making agreements with Scandinavia about coal and other matters we have in fact nullified the operation of the most-favoured-nation clause. Some other countries do the same. I think we might say the same of the United States of America. I hope, therefore, it will be possible to reach an agreement by which that kind of interference with the operation of the most-favoured-nation clause will be diminished if it is not entirely dropped in the future.
Then again, is it necessary for us to insist so rigidly on the operation of the clause in arrangement between other countries who are trying to make low tariff arrangements with one another, in the name of the most-favoured-nation clause. I believe we prevented the Ouchy Agreement between Belgium and Holland from coming into effect on the ground that it was contrary to the most-favoured-nation clause. I think it is going to be very difficult for the British Commonwealth both to demand that other nations should regard the preferential arrangements which they make with one another as being outside the most-favoured-nation clause and to continue to refuse to allow other nations to make favourable arrangements lowering tariffs among themselves in the name of the most-favoured-nation clause. I venture to hope the Government will consider whether they could not follow the lead of the American Republics who agreed at the recent Conference at Buenos Aires that they would not press the most-favoured-nation clause against other countries provided their mutual tariff arrangements are in the direction of a general reduction of the level of tariffs.
Finally, may I ask whether the Government are prepared to consider the possibility of altering the Ottawa arrangements for the closing of the open door in the Colonies? Nothing does more harm to this country than the reservation for itself of exclusive privileges in our Colonies. It is not really worth while either from our point of view or from the point of view of the Dominions. I believe the larger part of the Colonial Empire is debarred from these arrangements by the Covenant of the League of Nations in the

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case of Mandate or by special international agreements in other cases. There is very little economic advantage in this aspect of the preferential system, but I believe that politically speaking there is a great deal of disadvantage in it. The matter ought also to be considered from the point of view of the indigenous inhabitants of the countries concerned. We constantly talk about our trusteeship for the indigenous people, but when it comes to allowing them to obtain these cheap goods necessary for their standard of living we step in and compel them to buy much more expensive goods because they are going to be made in this country. I think from that point of view the sooner we can return to our original open-door policy the better.
May I just mention one other minor point which is not perhaps strictly relevant to this Motion, but which arises out of the governmental control which inevitably follows economic nationalism? That is to the great anxiety which has been caused in India recently in the matter of the clove trade of Zanzibar. I understand that during the depression a Clove Growers' Association was formed under Government control, with Government representatives on it, and that, at any rate in the early days, the result of that Association was that the Indian merchants who had previously done practically all the trade in cloves were to a large extent ruined. There was also a moratorium which prevented them from collecting some of their earlier debts. I understand that the matter has, in some degree, been since reconsidered, but I hope the Government will look into the question because it is causing a great deal of anxiety in India. If the tradition which has been followed in this country, that if you have to interfere with vested interests as the result of creating new methods of control you must give fair treatment to all concerned, is observed, I believe they will find it possible to make a just arrangement for the Indian merchants which will allay their bitter feeling and lessen the anxiety which has been caused in India when the new Constitution is coming into being. I should like to have some assurance that the Government at any rate will look into the matter and see that fair play and justice is done to the Indian merchants in that respect.
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In conclusion, I turn to my first question: Can the Government assure us that what they have said is not merely words but that they mean to do something to lessen the barriers to international trade and, as a result of their inquiries, that they believe that they will actually be able to accomplish results? Your Lordships will remember some observations which the late Prime Minister made to a deputation which went to see him to urge the importance of increased international trade. They were rigid and unaccommodating and unhelpful. The late President of the Board of Trade made a very lucid but, as I thought, not very helpful or very comforting reply to a debate in the other place in May on this subject. I feel that, difficult as the situation is, inherent as is the limitation on what can be done by the sovereignty of the State which all insist on, we can begin to reverse the tendency of the last fifteen years, and that if we do not we shall drift on until the forces of economic nationalism produce another wave of high tariffs and another set of disasters for the world. But we can only reverse that tendency if the Government really put their backs into the task. There is not a country in the world which does not at this moment look to the British Government for a lead in this matter. They feel that the National Government, which only yielded in 1931 to the disease of High Protectionism, is still more wedded to tariffs than are other Governments who are more acutely aware of the suffering that has befallen their own people—the long-distance evil results which follow from high protection as against the short-distance advantages which are recognised to follow in the early stages. I think it depends more upon the British Government than anyone else to determine whether we move towards freer trade or back towards new disasters. I therefore hope the noble Viscount will be able to give us some assurance on that point this afternoon, and I beg to move the Motion that stands in the name of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, the Motion upon the Paper may lead to many differences of opinion in your Lordships' House, but I think there will be agreement upon three points in regard to it. The first is that the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, has rendered a public service in putting down this Motion so that these

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very important matters may be discussed in your Lordships' House before we adjourn for the Recess. The second point is that there will be universal regret that the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, is not himself able to be present to-day to move the Motion. I know that your Lordships would have appreciated his great experience and authority in discussing this question. The third point is that we are fortunate in that the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, is able to step into the breach. He speaks, if he will allow me to say so, on this question—as indeed on so many questions—with impressive knowledge and weight.
Despite the many important debates which have taken place in your Lordships' House during this Session, I do not think it is any exaggeration to say that none has been more momentous in its issues than the one in which we are engaged this afternoon. I do not think I am at all indulging in the language of hyperbole when I say that the peace of the world may very well depend upon what is clone by Great Britain—that means by His Majesty's Government—and done soon, in the direction of relieving the economic tension of which the Motion speaks. The declaration in the Report of the Imperial Conference which is quoted in the Motion on the Paper is, of course, to be welcomed, but I think it would have been more welcome if there had been more evidence that it is likely to lead to something. I cannot help thinking that we are at a considerable disadvantage in that we know very little indeed of what really went on at the Imperial Conference in regard to these very important matters. His Majesty's Government have told us for a long time that they are anxious to promote the flow of international trade and to deal with economic grievances. It is now nearly two years since we had that remarkable speech of Sir Samuel Hoare about raw materials. It was always rather mysterious to me why that speech was made when it was made. Of course, I welcomed it, but it has not been followed up by anything effective.
The present Prime Minister himself has in very forcible terms stressed the need for reducing trade barriers and promoting the flow of world trade. Nevertheless, practically nothing has been
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done by His Majesty's Government, and that is the point I want first to stress. Elsewhere in the world things have been done. The noble Marquess dealt in some detail with the attitude of the United States of America, which, of course, is of enormous importance in this matter. One example of that activity was seen in the Canadian-American Agreement—an agreement of great moment, an agreement that, so far as Canada is concerned, was really at variance with the spirit of the Ottawa Agreements. Personally I do not complain of that, but that is the fact. Then, as the noble Marquess said, arrangements have been made by the Powers at the Oslo Conference. It is very discouraging to find that in reply only yesterday in another place to questions about the Oslo Agreement, the President of the Board of Trade made a response which was really most unsatisfactory. I will not take up time by reading what was said. It was reported in the newspapers this morning, and no doubt many of your Lordships have seen it. I am trying not to be controversial tins afternoon, but it is really very difficult to reconcile what the President of the Board of Trade said yesterday with any real operative desire on the part of His Majesty's Government to do something in this matter of lowering tariff barriers.
Then, again, I would ask your Lordships to consider what has been done by the Danubian countries. They have reduced tariffs to some extent among themselves. Turkey only a week or two ago abolished quotas, and even France and Germany have made an agreement which I understand contains some tariff reductions. But Great Britain has done very little. What in fact has been done? The noble Viscount who is going to reply for the Government may quote the reduction of the steel duty. Yes, but that was not done because of the motives which the noble Marquess has been urging this afternoon. It was done because the Government were practically obliged to do it. There was no alternative. It is true that Mr. Runciman made a few trade agreements beginning with the United States, Denmark and Germany, but together they amount to very little in practice. As any substantial contribution to the problem they cannot be adduced as evidence that the Government

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have anything material to their credit. Yet, as the noble Marquess emphasised, in a rather different aspect although I agree with what he said, Great Britain has larger responsibilities in this matter than any other country—Great Britain and the British Empire.
The British Empire is the greatest Empire in the world. It covers about one-quarter of the world's territory and it comprises about one-quarter of the world's population. It has within its borders very much more than one-fourth of the world's wealth. Let me again recall to your Lordships that of the twenty-five minerals and commodities which are essential for modern life, it has been estimated that the British Empire has adequate supplies of no fewer than eighteen. Germany with her very large population has adequate supplies of only four; Italy has adequate supplies of only four; and Japan, with a population of 70,000,000 growing at the rate of a million a year, has adequate supplies of only three. Is it any wonder that there is economic unrest? If we were in the position of Germany, Italy and Japan, we should think just as they do. Not only has the British Empire this vast proportion of the world's resources, but under the Ottawa Agreements they are more and more hedged in by the British Empire, shut up in this quarter of the world's territory, with one-quarter of the world's population, behind tariff barriers. It is all very well to tell foreign countries that they can buy raw materials and that we shall be only too pleased to sell them, but they can only buy raw materials if they have the exchange with which to buy, and they can only get that exchange in sufficient measure if they can have a large and growing export trade. These countries, these so-called dissatisfied countries, Germany, Italy and Japan, with large and growing populations, are entitled to a large and growing export trade if they are to raise the standard of life of their people. The policy of His Majesty's Government and of Ottawa has been a blow to the trade of these dissatisfied countries.
Let me remind the House of the position to-day as compared with that of a few years ago in this matter of putting obstacles in the way of trade with foreign countries. Go back six years, go back to 1931. At that time in this country there
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was no protective tariff. His Majesty's Government have put on a high protective tariff. It may be said that tariff countries can have no grievance about that, because they have high protective tariffs as well. That may be so, but the fact remains that the high tariff has been a hindrance to their trade. There cannot be any dispute about that, more especially as, in the tariff, we have given a preference to the export to this country of certain manufactured goods from the Dominions. No one can possibly contend that to put up a discriminatory tariff round Great Britain for the first time is helping to remove traffic barriers.
Next, we have put increased obstacles in the way of exports of foreign countries into the Dominions, as the noble Marquess emphasised. Under Ottawa we have increased preference in our favour and to the detriment of the foreign countries; and then for the first time, under Ottawa, we put up so far as we could a tariff against foreign goods going into the Colonies, we ourselves and some of the Dominions having a preference. Now that was entirely new. It is true, as the noble Marquess said, that does not apply to anything like all the Colonies, because it cannot do so. It cannot do so owing to the fact that in the mandated territories we are not allowed to do it, and under what are known as the Congo Basin Treaties and so forth in our East African territories we are not allowed to impose these discriminatory tariffs. Under Ottawa, however, we can do it and we have done it, and it has been a source of very great grievance, particularly to Japan. To sum up the record of the Government in this matter of creating tariff barriers, it seems to me that the policy of putting a tariff round Great Britain with discrimination, combined with the total of the Ottawa Agreements, has meant the very formidable erecting of tariff barriers round this vast territory which is known as the British Empire.
The three dissatisfied nations, Germany, Italy and Japan, and other countries, have therefore found it increasingly difficult to get the expansion of their export trade which they want and which they ought to have if they are to raise the standard of life of their own people. We had a debate on these matters some sixteen months ago, and I on that occasion gave your Lordships various quotations, which I am not going

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to repeat to-day, showing how foreign countries felt the position, and particularly how Japan felt herself aggrieved. I say again that if we were in the position of any one of these countries we should feel exactly as they do. Nevertheless, all that debate and all the quotations did not make the slightest impression on the Government. We had a full debate on these matters and some very important Peers in your Lordships' House took part. I remember that the noble Lord, Lord Lugard, and others spoke. Despite all this the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, speaking for the Government, said that he could see no possible reason why we should give up the benefits of Ottawa. He also said that they did not stand in the way of freer world trade.
Is that the position of the Government to-day? If it is, the outlook is dark indeed. Surely such statements are entirely opposed to the facts. Is there no possible reason why we should give up the benefits of Ottawa? Apparently all that the noble Earl could think about was what Great Britain, the Dominions and the Colonies were getting out of Ottawa. He had no regard in anything which was said, as far as I remember, on that occasion to the fact that foreign countries have well-based, strong views against this policy and against the injury which it has done to their trade. It is an extremely one-sided view to say, as is often said and as was said on that occasion, that under Ottawa Imperial trade has been increased. Of course it has been increased. If you drive trade by preferences into a certain channel, if you, to use the phrase, "canalise" trade, it is bound to increase. But the increase of Imperial trade is at the expense of foreign trade; that is the point. All that has happened is that there has been more Imperial trade and less foreign trade than there would have been. Let me emphasise that—than there would have been. This is a natural grievance with these foreign countries, because they see trade in which they might have had a share passing by them and being retained within the Empire to their disadvantage. I say again that we should feel the same in their position. Let me remind your Lordships also that the trade of the British Empire with the world as a whole is nearly three times as great as it is with countries outside its own borders.
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Foreign markets are of supreme importance not only to Great Britain but also to the Dominions, and I have some hope that the Dominions are coming more and more to realise it.
I do not wish to speak at great length, but I want before I sit down to put forward some practical proposals: things which I think should be done. First of all there is the general question of the revision of the Ottawa Agreements in the directions indicated by the noble Marquess who has spoken. It is not the case, as the Government seemed to think the last time this subject was discussed, that the Ottawa Agreements have been a very great success and that everybody is satisfied with them. That really is not true. That is not the view of many of the people in the Dominions. We trust that the Ottawa policy is not going to be continued by the Government without change. This is the time for change. The Agreements were made for five years. It is true that unless notice is given they will go on longer, but they were made in the first instance for live years. The noble Marquess has asked, and I should like to put the same question: Is there going to be any change in the attitude of His Majesty's Government in this matter of the revision of the Ottawa Agreements; or do we stand where Lord Plymouth stood last year and maintain that we do not see any possible reason why we should give up the benefits of Ottawa? This is a perfectly straightforward question, and I hope that if a reply is given to-day we may be told freely what is going on. But we do not want to be presented, as we were at Ottawa itself, with a fait accompli where nobody can do anything. That is not quite fair to Parliament. Are the Government going to do something?
Secondly—this also has to do with Ottawa, before I leave it—I should like very much to agree with all that the noble Marquess said about giving back what is known as the "open door" in the Colonies. I analysed these figures in your Lordships' House some time ago and I do not think it is far wrong to say that the total advantage to Great Britain through these preferences which have been put up on the Colonies under the Ottawa Agreements means an additional trade of probably about £10,000,000 a year—not profit, my Lords, trade. Last

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year Great Britain's exports were £444,000,000 and her imports were £844,000,000, making a total oversea trade, in and out, of no less than £1,288,000,000. I ask, is it worth while, in relation to figures like that, to have all the dissatisfaction and well-founded grievances, as I think, which these discriminatory duties into the Colonies have occasioned, for such a small material result? Is it not most unwise to antagonise foreign countries if that is all it means? It is no use, in any case; it is not a business proposition. I agree entirely with the noble Marquess that we should go back to the open door, giving other countries the same right of trade with the Colonies as we have ourselves, so that they can send their goods into the Colonies under the same terms as our own nationals. The psychological effect of that gesture would, I believe, be enormous.
I leave Ottawa and I press that the Government should resolutely set out to make this Anglo-American trade agreement. It has been talked of for a long time. I am afraid, however, that the real difficulty lies in the Ottawa Agreements. There was a very remarkable article in The Times on June 5 by the Special Correspondent in which he discussed this question. He said that the proposals for an Anglo-American trade agreement had been submitted in confidence to the Imperial delegates. These proposals, we were told, might, in some cases, have to be submitted to the Dominion Parliaments before giving a final answer to the United Kingdom Government. Next we were informed that such reservations as the Dominions might find it necessary to make might compel the United Kingdom Government to propose modifications in the American proposals in order to make the original proposals acceptable to the Dominions concerned. I think that is a very remarkable state of things and a very serious one, because it means that we have so tied ourselves up with the Ottawa Agreements that Great Britain is not free to make her own fiscal arrangements with America but, apparently, can only make a treaty agreement with America if she can get the Dominions to agree to what is finally done. If any light can be thrown upon this very important matter, that would make this debate worth while.
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The noble Marquess referred to the increased costs of living, which looks like going higher, and I suggest that in view of that fact the Government should take their courage in their hands and abolish the duties which are adding to the cost of food. I mean the new duties which they have put on, particularly the duties on fruit, vegetables and meat. Fruit has been made dearer and has been driven off the tables of some of the poor, owing, again, to the Ottawa Agreements. So we come back to Ottawa again. In Ottawa a sort of vested interest has been created. Otherwise the Government would be able to abolish these food duties which would be of benefit to poorer people. We are told in connection with the fitness campaign and in the debate on the Physical Training and Recreation Bill that good nutrition is as important as physical training. And before this tariff policy came into operation this was a cheap country to live in. Before the Ottawa Conference prices were low. Now they are high and look like going higher.
Then I think the duties should be taken off building materials. The cost of houses is going up. Another set of duties which should be abolished are those which are pressing hard on the farmer in the matter of feeding stuffs. I had almost hoped that in this I might have the support of noble Lords on the other side—duties on oil seedcake, bran and pollard and poultry foods. We all know the lamentable condition of the poultry industry and that condition is in no small measure due to the enhanced cost of feeding stuffs. It is partly due to world conditions, but it is made worse by these duties. I think that agriculturists will support what I am saying, and as the Government think they are the only people who do anything for agriculture let them now come forward and have these duties removed.
I am not going to discuss free trade and tariffs although that would be in order on this Motion. It is not the case that such prosperity as we are enjoying is due to the adoption of tariffs and the Ottawa Agreements. The world as a whole is enjoying, owing to certain circumstances, great trade prosperity. Whatever their fiscal system nearly all countries are doing well, but in the scale of production since 1929 out of twenty-three countries Great Britain is tenth on the list. Therefore, to suggest, as some

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of the protectionists do, that owing to tariffs things never were so good in any country, is not in accordance with the facts. Nor is it true to say, as has been claimed, that owing to Ottawa we have regained our position as the greatest exporting country in the world. The United States is above us. I am not rejoicing in that, but let us have the facts. I say these things for the reason that if the Motion of the noble Marquess were implemented Great Britain would herself benefit as well as be making a great contribution to the relief of economic tension in the world, and we should be more prosperous, I submit, than we are to-day.
As the noble Marquess said, it is British initiative that is needed. The chief responsibility rests upon this country and upon His Majesty's Government. I wish the Government would make a positive effort to review these problems afresh and try to look upon them from the point of view of foreign countries. The British Empire is the largest Empire in the world, and in recent years Great Britain and her Dominions have done more than any other country or Empire to place restrictions upon overseas trade. Therefore there is a peculiar responsibility resting upon the British Empire in taking the lead. Time presses. There is not much time. We are living dangerous times, and it is Great Britain and the British Empire which can best afford to give a lead in the right direction. I trust it will be done before it is too late.
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: My Lords, I speak with a great deal of trepidation after the two eloquent speeches of noble Lords opposite. I agree with the main thesis of those speeches, although I disagree with almost every detail. The noble Marquess, I could not disguise from myself, seemed to speak with considerable complacency. He indicated, in fact he used phraseology to assert, that we were returning to free trade from an orgy of tariff drunkenness. I think the classic phrase in that matter is "appeal from Philip drunk to Philip sober." I think he proceeded noon an entirely erroneous assumption. Indeed I think the main foundation of his speech was that particular assumption—to wit, that all tariff reformers had been against international trade, and that the Liberal
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Party had been the custodian of the desire to increase the exports of this country. As an old tariff reformer, as a person who never was unduly prejudiced, as one who always thought it was just as silly to say that you meant to put an import duty upon everything as to say that you would never put an import duty on anything, and as one who has been through the whole of this controversy, I have never known of any tariff reformer who was not as keen on the export trade as any free trader, nor one who failed to realise that this country's prosperity, although you must have a solid foundation of internal trade, could never reach the peak which previously it had achieved unless you had a great restoration of international trade.
It is one of the things of recent years that we have been rather proud about that the export trade has been so very largely increased, although free traders so diligently informed us that you could never have an export trade if you had import duties. But the fact is, of course, that export trade, in spite of the import duties, has increased between 1932 and 1936 by £75,000,000, and that in the first six months of this year we have increased our export trade by another £31,000,000 over last year. Accordingly, nobody can either say that tariffs have been inimical to our export trade, or that tariff reformers have not been very careful of the attitude which they adopted towards international trade at large. We believe as firmly as does any free trader that the world's prosperity can never be achieved except through strong international trade, and we believe just as firmly as any free trader that the more you can judiciously and legitimately reduce the impediments which obstruct your trade in the world—keeping in mind at the same time the power that you must conserve to yourself if you are to be of any use in the world at all—the greater will your prosperity be.
But now the other assumption which the noble Marquess made was that the Dominion statesmen had retreated from what he regarded as the policy of the Ottawa Conference. He seemed to say that what they were retreating from was the arrangement made at Ottawa for preference within the Empire. But the noble Marquess will never find any word of that kind in any part of the Report. What they were striking at was the

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quotas, the exchange restrictions and the high tariffs which were operative in other countries, and there is not a word suggesting that they felt, so far as they were concerned, that they were obstructing the course of the world's trade. And why should they adopt any such position? Why should any of our Dominions, or the British Empire, cry "Peccavi" in connection with this matter? What is the truth? The truth is that the British Empire to-day takes more goods from foreign countries than does any other combination in the world. Instead of its being true, as the noble Lord who has just sat down says, that Ottawa put an obstructive fence round the rest of the trade of the world, it still remains true that each one of our great Dominions buys enormously from foreign countries.
And if you appeal to the figures of our own country, what are the facts? Great Britain buys more from foreign countries than any other country in the world. Last year we purchased from foreign countries £516,000,000 worth of goods. How does that compare with any other country? There is the United States of America. It has a population two-and-a-half times that of this country, and America purchased £490,000,000 worth of goods—£26,000,000 less than we purchased from the rest of the world. So far from there being any ground for saying that we should be conscious of our own iniquities in this matter, the real fact is that Great Britain and, still more, the British Empire afford to the world the greatest market for its products, and nobody else gives anything like equal facilities in their markets to those that we give in ours. If that be the fact, why should we stand here and acknowledge in a white sheet, like the noble Marquess, that we are doing something which is inimical to the peace of the world, and that we ought to do something now by which we can appease people? Can anybody say we are a bad neighbour in face of the figures which I have just cited to your Lordships?
There is one other thing which I think the noble Marquess ignores. We stand in the situation to-day which he eloquently described. He tells us that the United States has come forward, stretching out the hand of friendship and amity, and expressing eagerness to enter into a trading agreement. All that is true, and I shall say a word about that in a moment. But does the noble Marquess imagine that,
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if we had no tariff at all, any such proposals would ever be made? I was glad to hear for the first time from any of the Liberal free traders the acknowledgment from the noble Marquess that he does not believe in universal free trade. We have never heard that acknowledgment before. But it is true, it is patently true, that the only reason that we have to-day the offer which the United States is prepared to make to us, is that we are armed with tariffs and we have something to bargain with. I am one of those who believe ardently in negotiations with the United States for this purpose.
The state of the world at the present time is highly interesting, but very dangerous. One of the most prominent of all the factors which oppress one's mind is that the United States politically has adopted a position of complete isolation. You cannot find an American citizen to-day who would agree to take part in any of the antagonisms of the world. Their persistent, assiduous policy is to keep right outside the affairs of other countries, but in the economic sphere they are now taking up a totally different attitude. I think it arises in part from the fact that there is in the United States a greater understanding of our position at the present time than ever before, even at the time of the Great War. Vis-à-vis the dictatorships of Europe they greatly favour the British democracy, and I think there is a feeling of comprehension about our position which induces a much more friendly attitude on their part. In addition, you have got a Democratic Government in power whose policy has always been to favour lower tariffs—although they seem high compared with anything known in this country. At any rate, Mr. Cordell Hull is assiduously urging some agreement with Great Britain, and the Secretary of Agriculture, Mr. Wallace, has been preaching through his country now for several years the doctrine that if America wants to export her farm produce she must be agreeable to lower her tariffs upon manufactured goods.
We are therefore at a moment of time which is particularly propitious. The noble Marquess referred to the economic nationalism which was destroying the world. He seemed to think—and perhaps many others may think also—that a movement in favour of reciprocal trade is the method by which you will destroy economic nationalism. I am not so

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optimistic as the noble Marquess on that matter. The countries which most assiduously follow that policy are Germany, Italy, and Russia. Russia controls all its trade by Government. No individual element enters into its foreign trade at all. There is no possibility of destroying the economic nationalism of Russia. In the case of Italy and Germany their economic nationalism is derived from their political attitude. Why is Germany to-day, economically, so devoted to a national policy? It is because she wishes to make herself self-supporting. That is true also of Italy. In every case they wish to have all the elements which, in a war, they would have to use. Germany has been deliberately setting herself, since the experiences of the last War, to make herself independent in the matter of oil, in the matter of rubber, and in the matter of chemicals. How are you going to destroy that economic nationalism by any process of interchange of goods? You must alter first the foreign policies of these countries, the attitude of mind they have adopted, and the views they have inculcated into their own people. That is what you must alter in order to appease the condition of Europe.
I see a far more favourable situation in regard to America, not merely because of that rise in friendship—I hope I am not exaggerating—on the part of America towards us, but also because of the fact that trading arrangements with America would be very much easier than with any other country. Their standard of living is much more comparable with ours than with any country, for example, in Europe. There is a difficulty which I do not think the noble Marquess fully realised in allying yourself with a people with lower standards of life. His illustration was far too facile. He seemed to think that people with lower standards of life were only working with their hands, and he said that temporarily Japan, now that she has some machinery, would be able to compete, but that that would pass. Why does he think that it will pass?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: It is passing.
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: I do not know whether the noble Marquess has read in the newspapers what
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they are doing in the matter of currency policy to meet the difficult situation they are facing. But let us leave Japan for a moment and look across the Channel at Belgium. Belgium is just as well equipped with essential machinery as we are, but the men working these machines are getting infinitely less wages than the men working similar machines in our own country. I know definite cases where the wage of the Belgian skilled man working with precisely similar machinery Ts not more than 50 per cent. of the wage paid in this country. If you wish to defend your own employment you cannot possibly allow the free inrush of goods made under these conditions into our country. I am morally certain you will never get the trade unionists of this country to agree to that. Along that line I do not think you will have any success, but, at any rate, let us begin with America. Here is a country with comparable conditions and, as I say, a comparable standard of living. It is much easier to make a reciprocal tariff arrangement with America than with any other country of which I know.
There is one more reason for making such an arrangement with America at the present time. It was partly touched upon in the speech of my noble friend who raised a question regarding the price of gold. It is eminently desirable that we should have far more definite arrangements with America on the subject of currency than we have at the present time. We have the tripartite agreement between France, America, and ourselves, but that is terminable at twenty-four hours' notice, and it has never been brought to any kind of definite terms. You have seen what happened a couple of months ago. The mere rumour that the President of the United States was going to lower the price of gold reduced the value of commodities throughout the world and upset the whole of the markets in Europe as well as in America. That was entirely due to this very artificial system under which we exist, but which is apparently necessary for carrying on our trade. You must make the measure of value stable if you are going to have any permanent prosperity in trade. Therefore I believe that at the earliest possible moment we should have far more definite arrangements with America in that regard than we have now. It would

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be a favourable opportunity, when we are dealing with a trade agreement, to deal also with currency, because whatever you may do in a trade agreement can be swept aside by a clause in a Currency Bill. The two matters should be dealt with at the same time.
It would be wrong if the House ceased to be conscious of the difficulties that are in the way. You must realise in the first place, so far as our own country is concerned, what has been achieved by the tariff system. It might not have been necessary if all the countries had been of the free trade persuasion, but at any rate it was necessary in our case to adopt the methods we did. The result has been that you see employment increased by 2,000,000 since 1931, and we are making for ourselves at home a vast amount of goods that we used to buy from abroad. We have seen unemployment diminished by something like 1,500,000, and we have seen production in this country go up to a record never before attained. The figures have been very remarkable. Go back to 1934, measure that by the figure of 100, and our industrial production to-day is the figure of 129. Indeed, the number of people employed in this country is greater by nearly three-quarters of a million than at any other period of our history. You may say, and no doubt the noble Viscount (Lord Samuel) will say vociferously, that that is not due to tariffs, but at any rate I will say this with confidence, that without these tariffs such a result would never have been accomplished.
Indeed, if you look at the situation in 1931, it is quite certain that if we had remained a country with open shores we should have been submerged, swamped, and overwhelmed by the glut of goods that would have poured into this country from the surplus of other nations. In the first place that stands to the credit of the policy that we adopted in 1931. I will refer for a moment to what followed in connection with the Ottawa Conference. It was only when we had reached the position of having tariffs in this country that it was possible to make preferential arrangements with our Dominions. It was only then that we could give them reciprocal advantages. I regret that there should have cropped up in the speech of the noble Marquess and the noble Lord who followed him
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the same suspicion against doing anything to fortify your Empire. It is in the blood of anybody who has ever been brought up on Cobden. His notable saying was that the only objection to Britain getting rid of her Colonies was that she would then be so strong she would be a menace to the rest of the world. Apparently it is upon some sort of idea of that kind that you have persistently creeping out this determination not to collaborate in any way with the Dominions except when you want their aid on the battlefield.
The noble Lord referred to the suggestion, which he regarded as anathema, that we could not, in these matters, proceed without the Dominions, that we were afraid to act upon our own initiative and entirely without consultation with them. I do not think your Lordships would give much support to that kind of view in the modern world. What would our position be in the world to-day but for the fact that we have this immense Commonwealth more solidly brought together now than ever before? I do not wish to refer to trade arrangements with the Dominions. There is something much more than that behind it. There is the strength derived from the mutual consideration for each other of the peoples of the British race all over the world. There is the building up of a great structure not merely of natural resources but of the human element, which forms our strength and our defence in any moment of crisis. Believe me, one of the things which affects the American to-day more than others is this great Commonwealth of nations that is under the Dominion of the King. I do not believe for a moment that the United States of America would wish you to do anything which would weaken that Commonwealth, because they regard it as one of the great safeguards against the dangers of the dictators in the world.
I have already talked longer than I had intended to do, but I want to say this in conclusion, that I agree that it would not be impossible to make arrangements with America, in consultation with our Dominions, which would be of advantage to us all and of great benefit to the trade of the world. I do not believe that to be impossible. I think when sometimes you cannot make direct arrangements it is possible to make triangular agreements whereby, if a market

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for one particular kind of goods is taken away, let us say in Great Britain, it may be compensated for by a market which America would agree to give. I am sure there are many arrangements of that kind that could be made. I am, indeed, most hopeful that they will be made, and I feel—though, of course, I cannot answer for the Government any of the questions put to the noble Viscount—that until such a task has been proved to be impossible the whole energy of the Government should be devoted to its accomplishment.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, may I turn your Lordships' attention for a moment from the general principles of trade which have been discussed with so much eloquence and, if I may say so, with so much charm by the noble Viscount? I should like to call attention to what appears to many of us the discrepancy between the words and the deeds of His Majesty's Government in one special particular. The noble Marquess alluded to the utterances of the Government as they affected the whole question of free trade, and he alluded to the question of the open door in the Colonies. In a debate some months ago, when I myself introduced a Motion on the Colonial question, the Government was represented by the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, Lord Plymouth, at the end of the speech in which in the main he argued against the open door, made statements which interested us very much, to this effect.
While saying that in many points he agreed with the argument for the open door, he said:
"We can see that there would be considerable advantage if a joint and general declaration were made by the Colonial Powers, expressing their willingness to be guided in the adminstration of their Colonial territories by the spirit of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League."
As we all know, Article 22 of the Covenant deals with the question of mandation, and uses these words:
"To those Colonies and territories … which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves … there should be applied the principle that the well-being and devolpment of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation … The Mandatory must be responsible for the administration of the territory under conditions which will guarantee freedom of conscience and religion. … and will also secure equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of other Members of the League."
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The noble Earl very definitely advocated such a declaration, referring markedly to the free trade declaration of Article 22 of the Covenant, and, in reply to the deputation to which the noble Marquess alluded, a few weeks afterwards, the late Prime Minister, in his written reply, used again the same expression in regard to the value of a declaration of the Colonial Powers.
It would be most valuable if the noble Viscount who leads the House can tell us something more about what was the meaning of that statement. What are the Government doing about it? We cannot help feeling that in some degree the Government are claiming to be what they are not. That, unhappily, is the definition given in the dictionary of a hypocrite, and I am sure that the Government, using that very definite declaration, meant something which at present is obscure to us. But it aroused hopes in many quarters, and, as I say, it was repeated not long afterwards. If such a declaration were brought about it would of course do very much to break the vicious circle in which we stand at present—tariffs leading to unrest and danger, danger leading again to tariffs. I agree with the noble Marquess that the whole of the Ottawa policy is a factor introducing risk into the international situation, but I specially want to urge the importance of the point to which the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, was calling our attention. He was dealing particularly with the matter of access to Colonies, not to trade with Dominions, and it is the case, I think no one will deny, that exclusion of imports in regard to Colonies has an exasperating effect out of all proportion to the economic damage which may result from it.
It is very largely a matter of how it looks. In the treatment of your territorial possessions in the case of non-self-governing Colonies, which are wholly different in their nature from Dominions inhabited by whites and deciding their own tariff policy, the appearance of selfishness is much more conspicuous. If you bottle your Colonial market the economic effect is not vast but the irritation is immense, and we can see how it is taken in certain countries with whom we have to reckon. Moreover, absolutely it is very considerable. The Colonial trade of the world is about £830,000,000,

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more than 10 per cent. of the whole of world trade. The trade of the British Protectorates and Colonies and Mandated Territories is no less than £282,000,000. The United Kingdom sends to the Colonies £49,000,000 worth of goods, 11.2 per cent. of our exports. The population of the Colonies and Protectorates is no less than 54,000,000, and although very large parts of the Colonial Empire have no preferences—the Congo and the West African Anglo-French areas—the preferences do affect a very vast trade. An illustration of the effect of the preferences which cause so much feeling in Germany and elsewhere may be found in Kenya and Uganda as compared with Tanganyika. In the former, German imports come to 5·4 per cent., and in 'Tanganyika to over 11 per cent. I submit that if the Government would do something for their declaration—someone must give a lead if you are to have a joint declaration—it would be a serious step and an extremely valuable step, although I admit chat to extend the policy of mandation would do still more. If the Government are prepared to take the lead in proposing such a joint declaration, few things could have greater value, and I hope that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House may be able to show us that, on this particular point, the Government meant what they said.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, like my noble friend Viscount Home I do not quarrel with the terms of the Motion which is on the Paper, but I do differ from the way in which that Motion has been approached by my noble friends the Marquess of Lothian and Lord Arnold. They have put practically the whole of their argument upon the free trade basis, upon the Cobden basis, as was stated by the noble Viscount, Lord Home. May I venture to congratulate my noble friend Viscount Home on the speech he has delivered this afternoon, the first speech upon economic matters which he has had the opportunity of addressing to your Lordships? The clarity and the force of that speech will be remembered by those who have listened to it for many a long day. I confess that many of the arguments which he advanced were arguments which I had in my mind, and that many of the figures that he gave I had also memorised, but I was happy that
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they should be put before your Lordships' House in such a definite and forcible way.
The Report upon which this Motion is based is obviously one which is of a more general character than those that have been issued previously in connection with Imperial Conferences. This Imperial Conference dealt principally with questions of foreign affairs and defence, and it was not possible in such matters to make references at great length or in great detail in any report that was issued to the public. So far as economic affairs are concerned, the references were also very short indeed, but that is probably due to the fact that before the Imperial Conference met it had been decided in consultation between the Governments that the questions of trade and commerce and similar matters should be dealt with before the Conference. It is perhaps because of that that we find so little reference to the Ottawa Agreements or to the question of preference in this Report. Indeed, the only reference I could find was contained in the speech of the then Prime Minister, the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin, in which he referred to the value of the Ottawa Agreements in the development of inter-Imperial trade. That was in his opening speech, and I should like to hear from the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, when he replies, that, notwithstanding the fact that so little reference to the Ottawa Agreements or the policy of Ottawa is contained in this Report, the Government intend to stand fast upon that policy and in no way to diverge from the spirit that was inculcated at that Conference. In my belief the Ottawa Conference was a godsend to the British Empire. It came at the most opportune time, and the fruits of it will continue to be gathered so long as the family spirit of good will and co-operation governs the minds and actions of the constituent parts of the Empire.
I had the opportunity during last year to visit three of His Majesty's Dominions and certain of the Colonies, and I found that in no respect was the spirit of Ottawa depreciating in those places. I found, it is true, that there were certain new conditions and economic causes arising which seemed, to some extent, to cut across the Ottawa Agreements, but, generally speaking, I found no desire on the part of those I met—

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and I met men of all conditions and views—to depart from or to destroy the Ottawa spirit. But I did find that in those Dominions there was a definite movement going on for the creation and the promotion of secondary industries. I found on investigation that the reasons which were given me for that contained much substance. Having regard to the fact that these secondary industries are being created and are being promoted, this carries with it the necessity for finding foreign markets for the surplus primary produce in order to put themselves in the position of being able to purchase the raw materials which they cannot produce themselves and which are required for these secondary industries.
That applies in the same way to the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom has always lived on its surplus of exports, and if you take those two factors together it seems quite reasonable that at this Imperial Conference which assembled in London the representatives of those places should make recommendations in favour of the stimulation of foreign trade. The commercial men of the Empire realise, and have realised for a long time, that the foreign trade of the Empire is of the utmost importance to them. The total trade of the Empire to-day is £2,160,000,000. Of that amount £660,000,000 is trade within the Empire; the remaining £1,500,000,000 is trade without the Empire. Therefore we find that actually 70 per cent. of the trade of the Empire is done without the Empire. Consequently, when His Majesty's Governments at this Conference recommended the stimulation of foreign trade, they were appreciating the enormous part that foreign trade played within the Empire. They also appreciated the economic causes which have been described by the noble Marquess in his speech, and they felt that the time had come when, having set their own house in order and having an increasing supply of surplus products which they wished to export, they had to make every endeavour to increase their foreign trade.
Like other noble Lords who have spoken, I am a firm believer in the possibility of the United States of America and the British Empire countries entering into trade agreements. I believe that if we can obtain mutual trade agreements they will have their repercussions, and
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we may have co-operation in other directions as well. The time is now ripe for approaching this matter in an atmosphere which has never existed before. There are, however, very great difficulties in it, one of which, referred to by the noble Marquess, was the most-favoured-nation clause. Let me give you one instance of that. Last year a treaty was entered into between this country and the Argentine in regard to wheat. Under the most-favoured-nation clause, in spite of the fact that the United States were giving us no special consideration for what they were to receive, the same advantages had been extended to the United States as to the Argentine.
In any agreement that may be entered into with the United States it is perfectly obvious that points like that, which to-day come under the most-favoured-nation clause, will have to be dealt with as ordinary trading arrangements. I cannot conceive that the United States Government can take exception to that policy. America herself has paid very little regard in her trading arrangements to the most-favoured-nation clause, and I hope that when the time comes that point will be amicably settled and that trading agreements will be entered into between the Empire countries and the United States of America. There is no doubt that co-operation in trade between the United States and some of the Empire countries, especially in the Pacific Ocean, would be of the greatest advantage in many respects. I feel that one question especially which is of vital importance to all those British places in the Pacific might be approached in a tangible way—that is, defence—if the initial trading agreements were entered into. I do not propose to detain the House any longer, because I know that there are other speakers. I do, however, wish to ask the Government to do all they can to further the stimulation of foreign trade with this country and the Dominions. At the same time, when they do this, I hope that His Majesty's Government and the other Governments will cast their eyes over their shoulders and will not forget that there are Ottawa Agreements, and in no way infringe or transgress the spirit or the letter of those Agreements.
THE EARL OF ERROLL: My Lords, I do not intend to keep your Lordships for more than a very few moments, nor do

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I intend to weary you after this very interesting debate with my own views on the merits and demerits of free trade. Sufficient is it for me to say that I am in almost entire agreement with the two noble Viscounts who have spoken from these Benches. My reason for intervening in this debate is merely to make one point with regard to trade agreements, in particular relation to the East African Territories. As your Lordships are well aware, the point has already been mentioned by the two noble Lords opposite, Lord Arnold and Lord Noel-Buxton. The East African Territories are under what are known as the Congo Basin Treaties. These Treaties are in force at present as a result of the Treaty of Saint Germain-en-Laye, which was signed in 1919. It is unnecessary for me to go into the application of these Treaties, as they have been mentioned so often, both in this House and in another place. I might perhaps mention in passing that this Treaty provides for a revision every ten years and it can be denounced. I understand, however, that the international jurists hold that if the Treaty of Saint Germain-en-Laye is denounced, the Berlin Act of 1885 is automatically revived. Why this should be so I do not know, and I am perhaps one of those who never understand the ways of international jurists. Assuming it is not so, the same legal pundits hold that the Berlin Act cannot be denounced because the treaties contain no clause for termination. On the other hand, these treaties contain no clause for perpetuity, and I think the argument is just as sound from one point of view as from the other.
The East African territories suffer very much under these Congo Basin Treaties, and your Lordships will perhaps permit me to mention two facts. Firstly, they prevent the East African Governments from making trade agreements with any country; and secondly, they prevent those same Governments from adjusting trade imports by means of special duties, in order to preserve a proper balance of trade between themselves and any other country. They therefore deprive the East African Governments of any bargaining powers to make any agreements for themselves—the very point which Lord Horne mentioned in speaking of the trade agreement between America and this country. I would therefore ask the Leader of the
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House if he can give me some information on this question: Whether, if for reasons of world politics or general economics His Majesty's Government feel that it is inexpedient at this moment to try to abrogate the trade portion of these treaties, it is not absolutely necessary for the Home Government to insist when negotiating trade treaties with foreign Governments, or indeed with the Dominion Governments, that East African imports must be regarded by the foreign or Dominion Government as being part and parcel of the United Kingdom trade? I do not think that in the circumstances, and considering the harsh terms of these Treaties, this can be treated as an unreasonable demand and I hope the Government will consider it sympathetically.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, my first word must I think naturally be to associate myself with what fell from the noble Marquess who moved this Resolution, by way of regret at the enforced absence of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, in whose name the Motion stands. I, like all my friends on this side of the House who have taken part in the debate, have no quarrel with the terms of the Motion, although, if I felt so inclined, I should have considerable quarrel with some of the things which have been said in support of it. I found myself making the reflection as the debate proceeded and speeches were made on the other side of the House, that it was at least a matter for comment how many educated people, because certain things were true, came to the conclusion that it did not follow that other things were true too. I find myself in agreement with my noble friend Lord Home in the warning which he repeated.
I desire, if I can, to eschew controversy, because I do not know that it is likely greatly to assist us in a consideration of what is a matter of fundamental importance to the position of this country and of the world, and I will endeavour, so far as I may, to lay before your Lordships a plain and I hope intelligible statement of what is the view which the Government take upon the wide range of topics which have been brought into this general discussion of the economic position of the world to-day. First, I do not think it is irrelevant to remember that it was an

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economic crisis which was responsible for the formation of the National Government six years ago, and therefore the whole policy of that National Government and its successors has been directed to trying to restore the economic situation from the state in which it then was.
Owing to our peculiar position—a manufacturing country with a large population, dependent upon external sources for by far the greater part of its food—any step taken to restore the balance of British trade must enure to the general benefit of world trade. It was then made plain that if we were to extricate ourselves from the state of economic embarrassment in which we stood, and prevent the economic ruin of the world which would follow the total collapse of British trade, it was necessary that we should abandon the sober and strict doctrine of which we have heard from the Benches opposite, and which for eighty years has failed to win the acceptance of the world.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: I hope the noble Viscount is not going to accept the position in which the noble Viscount opposite tried to put me in a carefully prepared speech which was almost completely irrelevant to the speech which I had made. The speech which I made in support of the Resolution was in favour of a general movement towards a reduction of tariffs everywhere, and not one in favour of free trade. I hope the noble Viscount will remember that members of this Party who were in the National Government took part in all the measures which were necessary to restore the economic position in the crisis of 1931.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: I do not know why the noble Marquess should be at pains to contradict what I have not yet said; and I think if he will exercise some measure of the patience in listening to me which I was fortunately able to exercise in listening to him, he will find that my speech is strictly relevant to everything he has had to say. I was on the point of saying that the system of tariffs which this country has in fact adopted, and I am glad to learn with the good will of the noble Marquess opposite, has never been designed to establish a British monopoly of the home market or indeed any other market. Its avowed object has been
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to ensure a fair deal all round, for the home producer, and for the manufacturer and the consumer, whether British or foreign, and I hope that that statement will appeal to the noble Marquess.
With all respect to what fell from the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, I am not at all convinced (and that is an understatement) that in these days the fact that we have had these tariff powers has not been, as the noble Viscount, Lord Home, says—contrary to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Arnold—of direct value in assisting us to get other tariffs reduced. If a free trade world were practical politics, there might be few who would for their own sake desire to see the introduction of protective tariffs. But even high tariffs do not form nearly so effective a barrier to trade as quotas and exchange controls. It is these latter devices that place a stranglehold, as it were, upon world markets, and act not so much as checks upon trade as absolute bars. I am not disposed to occupy your Lordships' time therefore in justifying our tariff policy at the present time. That is really an academic question nowadays. The figures that my noble friend Lord Home quoted are, I think, really conclusive. I do not think, however, that either my noble friend or the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, quoted this figure: in 1932 the imports of this country (and that is a side of the question that must loom large in our consideration) were valued at £701,000,000, whereas in 1936 they stood at £849,000,000. You could hardly have a better proof that the tariff system as it is employed in this country has neither strangled nor diminished world trade. Part of the increase, I readily admit, is due to commodity prices, but part at any rate, and I think a great part, represents a real increase in the volume of trade. And the effect has been, I suggest, not only to revitalize British industry, but also to provide the British people with the wherewithal to trade with other countries.
Let me make it quite plain—and perhaps, as having sat on the Imperial Conference, I can do so with the greater assurance—that neither this country nor any one of the Dominions has ever imagined that, however high they placed the value of trade agreements with one another—and they did place them very high—they could flourish while the rest

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of the world suffered. That is an answer to some of the fears that the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, expressed. We know and they know, and we all fully recognise in our policy, the increasing inter-dependence of all nations in their trade relationships. I always see the layman's point of view, and I should like to present this question of world trade in the light of the simplest possible simile, which I almost apologise for suggesting to your Lordships, except that it seems to express accurately what I believe to be the truth of the matter. A traffic jam in Piccadilly might quite quickly be reflected at the Marble Arch and at Victoria, and it is just that fact of interlocking that makes the difficulty of dealing with the situation in which the world finds itself today. The simile indeed is a little more complete than that. I think it is true up to a point that reactions in these economic international relationships do have very much the same effect upon nations as does a traffic jam upon drivers of motor cars. Everybody feels slightly badly treated, everybody's temper gets slightly frayed, and, feeling himself treated with a certain lack of consideration, he is perhaps disposed to be lacking in consideration to other people with whom he is bound up. And I think that if only the people of all countries could realise this truth as well as I think the statesmen of the nations realise it, there would be a good deal less throwing of grit into the machinery, because everybody would know that on the smooth running of each part depended the smooth progress of the whole.
It is, of course, quite good to remember that man does net live by bread alone, but it is also good to remember that man cannot live without bread, and therefore, while the spiritual consolation and the encouraging exhortations to which we have listened this afternoon are all welcome, international trade requires something more substantial as well for its encouragement. The noble Marquess has asked what our contribution has been, or is to be, to the relief of the international tension that, in his view, is caused by economic strain. I hall hope to be able to say something to satisfy him. I was relieved to observe that in his speech he asked not only what it was our wish to do, but what it was going to be possible to do, and that, if I may with respect
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say so, imparted a pleasant tone of realism into that part of his argument. I would remind your Lordships in passing of what the actual declaration was that this country, along with the United States and France, made last September in the Currency Declaration of that date. We declared our conviction that monetary equilibrium could only be secured and maintained if international trade was allowed to develop, and we stated in particular that we attach "the greatest importance to action being taken without delay to relax progressively the system of quotas and exchange controls with a view to their abolition."
The noble Marquess asked me what this country has done. I would remind him that there is no exchange control in this country, and there are no quota restrictions on imports of industrial goods. There was nothing therefore which this country could do under either of these heads. Therefore, when the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, complains that we have not done much, part of my answer at least would be that there was not so much to do as in the case of most other foreign countries. The immediate contribution which this country made when the franc was devalued in October last was the not insignificant contribution of refraining from allowing a counter-depreciation of sterling to take place, and from imposing increased protective duties, both of which measures could well have been justified at that time by the more intensive competition to which our exporters might expect to be subjected. Our main contribution, as was made plain by the present Minister of Agriculture in his speech at Geneva last September, was that we should keep open our huge import market to the whole world on fair and equitable terms.
I might perhaps quote one figure. The total imports from all countries into the United Kingdom in the four years that have been mentioned—1932 to 1936—increased by nearly £148,000,000. Of that increase, imports from foreign countries accounted for no less than £62,000,000, and the excess of imports over total exports to all countries, British and foreign, increased during the same time from £285,0000900 to £348,000,000. Therefore I am not disposed to share the disparaging attitude of the noble Lord opposite when he, again asking the question what we have done, said that he knew that the

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late President of the Board of Trade had made a few trade agreements of no particular value, because I, differing from him, take the view that these trade agreements have in fact been of great value. It is a false conclusion of the argument for the noble Lord to attempt to say, what I think he cannot prove, that if we had followed a totally different system our foreign trade would have been in fact much greater than this significant and highly encouraging increase under the policy we have adopted.
The international trade policy which this nation has pursued has, as is well known, been to negotiate bilateral agreements first with Empire countries and then with foreign countries. By guaranteeing free entry to a large volume of imports from Empire countries, this country has contributed to the freeing of trade channels throughout the Empire and to that extent to the stimulation of trade throughout the world generally. The trade agreements negotiated with foreign countries, and the extension to third countries, under the most-favoured-nation clause of which I want to say a word in one moment, of the benefits thus accorded, have still further contributed to the development of international trade in these recent years. It is fair to say that the result of all these instruments working together, as measured by figures available for all who wish to consult them, has been to produce a fairer distribution of trade than was in operation before these measures were introduced. We hope, believing in the success so far achieved, steadily to continue this policy of trade agreements where they can be obtained, and the like, and it is in that connection that great importance of course attaches to the matter that was introduced by the noble Marquess who introduced this Motion and to which reference has been made by almost every speaker since. That is the matter of the discussions with the United States of America for a trade agreement with that country.
The noble Marquess opposite recognises the difficulties that are hound to arise in the course of these discussions, and just because it is the earnest hope of all your Lordships, as it is of myself and of His Majesty's Government, that it will be possible to find a secure basis for the negotiation of such a treaty as that, I excuse myself from following the noble Lord,
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Lord Arnold, into a detailed discussion of this matter at this time. Your Lordships will, I hope, take it from me that the end we all desire to accomplish would not be assisted by anything I could say at this time, and therefore I leave the subject with the single comment that His Majesty's Government are behind no member of your Lordships' House in desiring to see that end achieved.
The noble Marquess referred, in terms that, so far as I followed them, secured my warm approval, to the most-favoured-nation principle. In our view the mostfavoured-nation principle is, on the whole, the one best calculated to promote international trade and the stability and harmony of commercial relations. This country has probably, I suppose, more to lose than any other in a campaign of general discrimination on account of the world-wide nature of its export trade. The noble Marquess, or it may have been the noble Lord opposite, made some argument on the most-favoured-nation point which I thought was deserving of an answer. As regards imports into the United Kingdom, we are always, as far as we can be, careful to see that the most-favoured-nation rights of third countries are not infringed. As regards our exports to countries with whom we have negotiated trade agreements, the interpretation of their most-favoured-nation obligations is a matter, of course, for those countries, and it must here, as in the other fields we were looking at a moment or two ago, be remembered that exchange controls, quotas, etc., have done a great deal to undermine the virtue of the most-favoured-nation clause in many countries. On balance, it is true to say that the United Kingdom has suffered very much through this, and our policy accordingly is always to urge the abandonment of such régimes and the sweeping away of the special arrangements to which they have given rise.
Lord Noel-Buxton asked me whether I could say anything in regard to the open door, upon which he was good enough to quote a speech that had been made by my noble friend Lord Plymouth at an earlier date this year. I am not sure he had had the opportunity of refreshing his mind about the whole speech my noble friend then made. My noble friend said—and this was the part that the noble Lord quoted—

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"We can see that there would be considerable advantage if a joint and general declaration were made by the Colonial Powers, expressing their willingness to be guided in the administration of their Colonial territories by the spirit of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League."
The only point to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention in that quotation is contained in the words "a joint and general declaration … made by the Colonial Powers … to be guided by the spirit of Article 22." My noble friend also said in the same speech—this was the point I think the noble Lord had in mind—
"The immediate application of mandatory provisions and of an open-door policy to all tropical Colonies, of whatever nationality, far from helping Germany or any European country with high labour standards, would only result in great advantage being given to the products of the industrialised East, and notably Japan."
That is true, and it remains as true to-day as when my noble friend said it six months ago.
For the rest, the noble Lord will not forget, whatever importance he may attach to it, that it was His Majesty's Government which initiated the inquiry now being conducted at Geneva into the question of raw materials—an inquiry of great importance. It is too early, admittedly, as yet to say what may come out of it, but it is all to the good that that matter should be investigated fully by experts from all countries. And I have no doubt that as soon as that Committee reports His Majesty's Government will give the fullest consideration to it. Meanwhile there is one thing that on that topic it is worth saying. I am not going to develop it, but I think it is important it should be said. Do not let any noble Lord in this House, or any one outside, assume that the fact that certain countries cannot find a means to purchase raw materials, as at one time they could, is necessarily or primarily the fault of other countries. That, I think, is perhaps a matter that is not always borne in mind and is of importance.
I come, lastly, to the question of action on an international scale, and that brings me back to the second question that the noble Marquess asked as to what in the view of His Majesty's Government might be hoped to be possible at this time. We have, I think, to remember that we have had certain disappointing experiences of that method of approach. The
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examples that were furnished by the negotiations for a tariff truce in 1930, and the Monetary and Economic Conference of 1933 are not encouraging. Of course the difficulty is that the circumstances of each country differ so much, the angle of approach is so different, that negotiations on a large scale are very often in practice likely to lead nowhere. These obstacles that we have been considering all constitute restrictions quite different in kind from one another, and each of these different types of restriction is applied differently by different countries, and the problem of devising a common formula under which a number of countries could proceed together to the gradual demobilisation of the several types of trade barrier has up to now, as we all know, defied all our ingenuity. But in saying that I do not wish to rule out the possibility of multilateral negotiations at some future date, if circumstances appear more propitious.
It is, however, I think clear that before the question of summoning a large scale conference of that sort could be gone into we must await the results of the inquiry which the Prime Minister of Belgium has recently been undertaking at the joint invitation of the French and British Governments, who, as your Lordships know, agreed to make informal investigations in various countries as to the possibility of securing a joint relaxation of quotas and other obstacles to trade. At the present time M. Frere, who has undertaken the inquiry, or part of it, on behalf of the Belgian Prime Minister, is at work on some aspects of it, and it will not, therefore, be until his report is in the hands of His Majesty's Government and we have learned what has been the result of his tour of several European capitals, that we shall be in a position to decide whether the economic atmosphere is such as to permit any move on international lines. The existing difficulties at present, as we all know, are largely due to exchange restrictions, and they are largely the result of efforts to maintain the currencies of those several countries concerned.
Thus much more than purely commercial difficulties are involved. Financial and, as the noble Lord opposite said, political considerations also arise. It was quite true what the noble Marquess quoted on that point from the letter of Mr. Norman Davis, but I think that there is some comfort that we can take at this

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point from this point of view. Thanks to the improvement in trade that has recently taken place there is, I think, no doubt that the purely commercial difficulties are less formidable than they were a short time ago. Last year, indeed, was the first year since the commencement of the depression that there was any real increase in the value of world trade as a whole. If anything more is required of us it must, I think, be as part of a well-prepared plan to which not only the democratic countries but all the great countries are prepared to make their contribution. It is no easy or simple matter to get rid of restrictions thus imposed. Under the protection thus afforded industries tend to be built up which become important factors in their country's economy, and they cannot then sacrifice them because of the results on employment which no Government would desire to face.
Moreover, economic difficulties affect, as we have seen, political tendencies, and in many countries self-sufficiency is now proclaimed as an end in itself. If I may express my own opinion, the expenditure on armaments which has contributed to the present industrial revival throughout the world offers no real solution for economic difficulties, but perhaps creates new problems. Quotas, clearings, currency disturbance and exchange controls together constitute a network of entanglements which cannot, I think, be cleared away by any magic formula. The existence of one restriction debars the removal of some other restriction. They react on one another, they create a vicious circle from which it is not easy to break away. So far as I can see only two methods of approach are possible. One is to try to prevent any increase of restrictions and to trust to the beneficent effects of the present revival of world trade to bring about a relaxation of those restrictions. As one country after another becomes more prosperous, it should be in a position to relax its restrictions and thereby spread further the general improvement. But that may be a long and a very slow process.
The other alternative I suggest is to examine every possibility of international action and to prepare definite proposals first in one part of the field and then in another until a constructive plan for
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general appeasement can be devised. That is the more ambitious solution, and, as I have said, His Majesty's Government are not disposed to venture on that, with all the consequences of failure, until they can be reasonably assured of success. But it is with such a plan as that in mind that His Majesty's Government are pursuing the several inquiries referred to, and if, as a result of those inquiries, there appears a good prospect of a general solution of the problem, I am quite sure that this country will be prepared to cooperate with other countries in a concerted effort to reduce those restrictions under which we labour at present and to help the restoration of world trade to its former activity. And certainly we, in this country, have the great possible interest in the attainment of that object.
That is all that I would say upon general considerations; but I would like to add two sentences upon a special point made by the noble Marquess with regard to the clove trade in Zanzibar. I have seen the letter of which he made mention and also the answer to it, and I understand that the rights of the Indian middleman are being safeguarded so far as possible to meet the views of the Government of India. Explicit assurances have been given concerning the appointment of Indians as buying agents, two Indians have been added to the Board of the Clove Growers' Association, and statutory provision has been made for the setting up of an advisory body upon which the Indian community is adequately represented to assist the Association. I believe that the Government of India, while still regretting that it was not found possible to modify the principle of the new decree, have expressed great appreciation of the consideration which has been given to their statement of the case, and of the friendly spirit in which the whole matter has been discussed.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will all be grateful to the noble Viscount for the comprehensive survey he has given us, but I should be insincere if I were to pretend that his speech can give any satisfaction to those of us who sit on these Benches and who have put down the Motion which has been moved by the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian. The noble Viscount, the Lord President of the Council, has dwelt

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upon all the formidable difficulties that surround this matter, and with great cogency, but I missed any sign of a vigorous determination on the part of the Government to make head against those difficulties. He has given us many generalisations with which we can all agree, but as for any solution of the grave problems that confront us and the whole world, there is no sign of it, I regret to say, in the speech to which we have just listened. The noble Viscount, in a large part of his speech, was retrospective. He was dealing with what had been accomplished in the past and he took great satisfaction in the series of bilateral agreements which the present Government have negotiated during the last five years. But those agreements have in fact proved utterly inadequate, for everyone is saying now that there is a problem which remains to be solved.
The resolutions of the Imperial Conference, unanimously passed with the consent of His Majesty's Governments here and in all the Dominions, emphasised that there is need for a change now. To the declarations of authorities which have been quoted by my noble friend the Marquess of Lothian, I could add many to the same effect—the International Chamber of Commerce, for example, the speeches of the chairmen of our great banks, and of authorities such as Sir Josiah Stamp and Sir Frederick Leith Ross, the economic adviser of the Government. These all declare that there are obstacles to international trade which are a great cause of unrest in the world and hold back the progress of all mankind. The bilateral agreements to which the noble Marquess referred have clearly proved unsuccessful in making any real impression upon the problem.
My noble friend Viscount Horne made a speech of great vigour delivered with his accustomed facility and force, which reminded me of many speeches I have heard from him on this subject in another place, and I am glad that now, on a different field, our old battles are to be resumed. He attacked those of us on these Benches for having adopted a policy which in 1931 would have brought the country to disaster and my noble friend the Marquess of Lothian pointed out to him that in 1931, in the conditions of that time, when there was a great emergency and an economic crisis, we our-
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selves were members of the Government which took the necessary measures at that period to save the country from that disaster. We are by no means wedded to a rigid economic theory which cannot be modified to meet the circumstances of the time. But when the noble Viscount who has just spoken, in answer to an interruption of my noble friend, said he was very glad to learn that the tariff system then adopted had our complete approval, he put an interpretation upon the words that were spoken from this side which they certainly do not bear. The fact that we are prepared to take measures in an emergency to meet that emergency does not mean that we are in favour of a permanent system of protective tariffs. That is an entirely different matter.
The noble Viscount, Lord Horne, presented himself here, as protectionists always do, as a champion of exports. He says, "Of course we must promote exports, we regard these restrictions on trade as a great evil. We only want, or we principally want, tariffs to enable us to bargain with other countries and force their tariffs down, and by means of retaliation to secure a greater measure of trade." The noble Viscount says that as well as doing that we must have tariffs in order to prevent the flooding of our markets by imports from countries with a lower standard of living and lower rates of wages. You cannot do those two things simultaneously. If you are going to have tariffs to keep out goods, you cannot use those same duties for bargaining. Duties that are intended for bargaining cannot also be intended to be permanent. The argument upon which that theory rests is a fallacious one, if I may respectfully say so, because it assumes that low wages mean low cost of production. They do not. You may have low wages with a high cost of production.
The noble Viscount mentioned Belgium as an example, but you might take any other country. You might take for example the cotton trade and India. India has a much lower rate of wages than Lancashire, and yet Indian cotton could not compete against Lancashire on equal terms. The Indian National Movement insisted on protection against Lancashire cotton, because despite their lower wages our costs of production are lower. The notion that you must have a

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tariff to protect you against lower wages is fallacious. The noble Viscount would not use that argument in the case of American motor cars which are excluded from this country by a protective tariff. Although wages in America are higher than here, the costs of production are frequently lower than here. Then the noble Viscount says we must have preferences for our Colonies and Dominions. We must have a tariff in order to give a preference. But if you have a tariff for that purpose it is a permanent tariff, and it cannot be used for bargaining. Our hands are tied. We pride ourselves on having no written Constitution, but the Ottawa Agreements have given us something worse, a written economic constitution which cannot be departed from without the assent of all. Therefore tariffs put on for the purposes of preference cannot be used for bargaining, and the argument in that respect fails.
The noble Viscount asks whether we should say that this country is responsible for the present entanglement of tariffs and quotas and so forth that prevail all over the world. He asks, is it not the fault of the other man? Are we not wholly innocent in this matter? We are not, I regret to say. We bear a very large share of responsibility for the present system of tariffs in the world. In 1933 in the great depression all countries of the world sent delegates to London to a World Economic Conference with a view to dealing with these very matters, and our then Prime Minister presided over that Conference. The Conference failed utterly. It resulted in nothing, for two reasons. One was that on the currency side the President of the United States refused to make any currency agreement. The other was that the leader of the British delegation, our present Prime Minister, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, declared to the Conference that we were not prepared in any way to depart from the Ottawa Agreements, consequently we could not make any general arrangements with the Powers at large which would achieve the object in view. Those two declarations, one on the currency side and the other on the tariff side, killed that Conference dead, and this country and its present Government were largely responsible for that result.
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Secondly, not very long afterwards Belgium and Holland agreed to a Convention for the gradual reduction of their tariffs by a certain percentage each year, and invited all countries to join. If that had been accepted generally over the world, these difficulties would have disappeared. Again it was this country which stopped that Convention from coming into operation by insisting upon the application of the most-favoured-nation clause and saying that we should not agree to any such arrangement between Belgium and Holland unless we could have the advantages of it without giving them any advantages in return. It was that insistence upon the most-favoured-nation clause in that form which destroyed the promising initiative then taken. I do not suggest, in answer to the noble Viscount, that the most-favoured-nation clause should be abandoned. We do not propose that. We do suggest, however, that it should be modified so that, when multilateral agreements are made for a general reduction of tariffs, they need not be regarded as an infringement of the most-favoured-nation clause. The United States have definitely agreed to that principle, and our Government have not agreed. Furthermore, when we came to make bilateral agreements with other countries, we ourselves insisted upon the adoption of quotas, the very measure which the noble Viscount now says is the chief offender in all these matters. It was the British Government which enforced quotas and compelled the Scandinavian countries to adopt quotas for our advantage. So I would emphasise the fact that it is insincere to declare that all the other countries of the world are to blame and that this country is wholly innocent of any responsibility for the state of things in which the world finds itself.
The noble Viscount, and also the Lord President of the Council, emphasised the improvement that has taken place in exports and said that this disposes of the case that is now put forward. They take as their basic year 1932, the bottom of the depression, and point to the improvement that has taken place in our trade since then. Of course, there has been an improvement, an improvement all over the world, but they ought not to compare our present position with the bottom of the depression; they ought to compare it with what our position was immediately

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before the depression. Have we, under tariffs, regained the ground that was lost? The facts are there. It is far better to take volume of trade if you can than values, because values are affected by prices. The noble Viscount and the Lord President have, however, taken values anti I will pursue that same argument. Before the depression, in 1929, the exports of our domestic produce to the whole world amounted to £729,000,000—a wonderful figure. At the bottom of the depression in 1932 we had lost precisely half that figure: the fall was from £729,000,000 to £365,000,000. We had been exporting £2,000,000 of goods every day. In the depression we were exporting £1,000,000 of goods every day.
How much of that has been recovered? Take this year, which is the best year. In the first six months of this year our exports are £251,000,000. If the whole of the year is taken on the same basis, our total exports will be £502,000,000. Therefore we did export £729,000,000; at the bottom of the depression we exported £365,000,000, and now we are exporting £502,000,000. And the noble Viscounts actually come here and say: "Look at the magnificent improvement! How can you show anything better? This is the result of tariffs; this Motion and this inquiry are disposed of." We lost £364,000,000, my Lords, we regained £137,000,000. We regained one-third of what we lost. That appears to me to be a very inadequate recovery. The noble Viscount, Lord Horne, said he was the champion of exports and that he would rejoice to see an increase in our exports. This year our figures for exports are actually less than they were before the War. The present figure for exports for 1937 is less than our figure for exports for 1913, a quarter of a century ago, when our population was far smaller and when, of course, the population of the world was far less.
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: If the noble Viscount had referred to the proportion of world trade and the proportion in which our exports had increased, he would have arrived at a very different conclusion.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: No, I should not at all. It is perfectly true that certain countries like Germany have lost their trade. That is quite true, and therefore
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the percentage of our country may be higher. That is the fallacy of the percentage, which is always very attractive to protectionists!
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: I am not making a comparison with any individual country, but I am taking world trade as a whole.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Certainly.
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: The figures disclosed two days ago by the League of Nations are only now about a half of the gold value of what they were before the War. This proportion of our exports to-day has enormously increased since 1931, and enormously increased during the whole of these years, and that in spite of the tariffs which the noble Viscount thinks would be a deterrent.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: The noble Viscount takes the year 1931, the bottom of the depression.
VISCOUNT HORNE OF SLAMANNAN: Yes, I do.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: And again he takes gold values, which the League of Nations, I know, takes as a basis of comparison, but which are very misleading, because any country which depreciates its currency in terms of gold immediately has an apparent great jump in its trade, comparing one year with another. What I was saying was strictly relevant with regard to Germany. Of course, if German trade were to disappear altogether from the statistics of world trade, then our trade, which has not similarly disappeared, would be a larger percentage of what is left. The fact that other countries have suffered worse than we have is no reason whatever for saying that these figures are irrelevant. The noble Viscount does not deny that we had lost since 1929 one-half of our trade and that we have only recovered one-third of our loss. That is the essential factor, and the consequence of it is seen in the depressed areas, which are the exporting areas. It is they who have suffered, and suffered almost entirely from this enormous reduction in our export trade.
Furthermore, agriculturists are suffering most gravely at this moment. We hear

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many complaints on behalf of the farmers, and one of the main causes is the enormous rise in the cost of the raw materials they consume. The poultry industry has been mentioned. Within a year the price of feeding stuffs of the poultry industry has gone up by 3o per cent. The price of feeding stuffs of the fat cattle industry has gone up by 40 per cent. These are the causes of the agricultural depression, and while the agriculturists come to us to ask us to raise the prices of what they sell, ought they not to come here and complain of our having raised the prices of the things that they buy? Now, as my noble friend mentioned at the outset of this debate, the cost of food to the people of this country has gone up by 10 per cent., by two shillings in the pound, in a single year, and every housewife feels the loss.
Then the noble Viscount asked whether you are to do anything to fortify your Empire. That begs the question. Are you fortifying your Empire or are you weakening your Empire? As Lord Lothian said at the beginning of this discussion, years ago there was no animosity or ill will against the British Empire. We held a quarter of the earth; we held almost as much as sixty of the countries of the world put together. In the present distribution of the land surface of the earth, two-thirds are in the hands of eight Powers or Empires and the other third is left to the other sixty nations, including Germany, Italy and Japan. They acquiesced in that in earlier days because the British Empire was not regarded as a preserve for the British people but was open to the world and held on trust. Now that you have this tendency to erect a wall about the Empire and to preserve it for our own economic interest, you have a very different spirit in the world.
This Motion is put down because of the supreme importance that we attach to this question in relation to peace, and peace is the dominant issue in the politics of the world to-day. My noble friend and I, and our colleagues, resigned from the Government not because of any question of this tariff or that, or of 10 per cent. here or there, but because we felt that this great change in the spirit of British policy would arouse animosity against us in the world, and be the cause of unrest
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among nations, and possibly lead to the greater peril of war. The purpose of this Motion was to ask the Government what they were going to do, and we have had admirable declarations of principle both from the noble Viscount who spoke from the Back Benches opposite and from the Lord President. They were most admirable. Prince Bismarck said, in a spirit of cynicism, that to say you were in favour of any thing in principle meant that you had no intention of doing anything to put it into practice, and I am afraid that these declarations which we have had from various members of the Government for the last five years, again and again, have resulted in the position in which we are at the present time. They explore every avenue, they leave no stone unturned, they leave out of consideration no possibility—and nothing is done!
Now we have this declaration of the Imperial Conference. It is in the most specific terms and it is a declaration that it was an outstanding feature of the discussion that all practicable steps should be taken to secure the stimulation of international trade, that it was recognised that in the last resort the prosperity of the countries of the Commonwealth depended upon that of the world as a whole, and that the growth of international trade was an essential step to political appeasement. Could there be a more definite or emphatic statement? Now what has happened? The Prime Minister makes a statement of the intentions of the Government. He addresses a great meeting at the Albert Hall, and he says:
"I am proposing this evening to review in broad outline the main aspects of our policy and programme as it affects our people and their hopes or fears for the future."
The new Prime Minister made it the occasion for a general survey, and what does he say about this issue? Not one word. He ignores it entirely.
Is that a sign of zeal and energy and enthusiasm for effecting change? The noble Viscount says we must await a report. I agree that that is so now that M. van Zeeland has been appointed to the position he has. But the whole question is: When that report is rendered in what spirit will it be received? The Leader of the House, by his speech, does not inspire one with a spirit of optimism. In our view if the Government lose this opportunity, if this statement of the

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Imperial Conference comes to nothing, if the American initiative fails and the initiative of the Oslo countries, and if after a year or two's time there should come, unhappily, another economic depression, increasing the strain among nations, increasing unemployment and unrest, and thereby the peril of war, if there is inaction new those who are to blame for it will not be able to escape their responsibility.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, we have had an extremely valuable debate, and I think your Lordships will agree that there has been introduced into it a new vigour and freshness. I beg to withdraw the Motion which stands in my name.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

PALESTINE.
Debate resumed (according to Order) on the Motion, made by Lord Snell yesterday, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for Papers relating to the Palestine Royal Commission Report, and to the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to the same.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I am not unmindful of the warning given in the Report of the Commission and reiterated by Lord Lamington against the danger of over weighting the scales by too much support of the Jewish case and thereby alarming the Arab mind, and I should have refrained from following Lord Samuel and Lord Melchett if it had not been for two reasons; the first that I do not desire to be thought indifferent to the issues raised, and the second that I shall, if I may, a little later make a suggestion for the consideration of the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for Air. It is right that I should say at the outset that I have no connection with any Zionist association of any kind. My views are my own views, and mine alone is the responsibility for them, just as was Lord Samuel's in the advice which he expressed yesterday. It may be that for that reason I am able to approach this problem from a rather more objective angle than my noble friend Lord Melchett, whose ardour in this cause I know to be due not only to filial piety but to deep personal conviction. I think in general terms it is
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true to say that while there were among Jews Zionists and anti-Zionists, there are now only Zionists and non-Zionists—a material distinction, because we have all, from whatever angle we view the situation, come to realise that in Palestine lies the only hope for the future of a great many suffering Jews to whose fate we cannot be indifferent without earning the obloquy not only of our own people but of the whole of civilised mankind.
It so happened that it was my privilege to be one of the counsel who went out from this country to present the Jewish Agency's case before the Shaw Commission in 1929, when I had the honour of sitting for some ten weeks in the literally and figuratively overheated atmosphere of Jerusalem at the feet of Lord Rushcliffe and Lord Snell, and I was then given an intensive course in the problems and personalities of Palestine which, so far as I can gather from reports in the Press, is to-day by no means out of date. At that time and at other times I have had to endeavour to construe the document in which the actual terms of the Mandate are inscribed, and I am bound to say that I have never been confronted with anything more confused, ambiguous, ill-drafted or obscure. I wish now that the same solution had occurred to me which has occurred to the members of the Commission, but, much though I might have desired to take that course, it never occurred to me to tear it into small pieces, which is the course which has now found favour with the Commission. I only pause to say that it does seem to me that they have, by so doing, gone completely outside the terms of reference on which they were appointed. The slightest examination of those terms of reference will, I think, make it abundantly clear that it was never contemplated that either their investigations or their recommendations should fall outside the four corners of the Mandate itself. However, that may be an academic discussion, because I at least know no procedure whereby you can obtain an enforceable declaration as to the actions of a Royal Commission being ultra vires.
The scheme of partition, which is the main subject of discussion in this present debate, has been welcomed neither by Jews nor by Arabs. The noble Earl whose name will always be associated with this great State Paper endeavoured both in the Report and in some degree in his speech yesterday to support that

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attitude by the venerable but vulnerable argument that when you were endeavouring to settle a dispute between two parties, if you succeeded in displeasing both you had probably done substantial justice between them. That argument is open to the retort that it never allows for the fact that you may have done substantial injustice to both. I do not pretend for my own part to like this part of the Report, anyhow in its present form. It seems to confine the future Jewish National Home to the equivalent of Devonshire, and then summarily to remove the equivalents of Exeter, Plymouth, Devonport, and—if I may be allowed the analogy, since I believe that Acre is the main gaol of Palestine—Princetown also, from that very limited sphere. It provides Palestine with a long frontier which is dominated almost from end to end by a mountain range and is strategically incapable of defence. Above all it proceeds to create a new Jewish State. I do not object to that State because it is Jewish, but because it is new and because it is a new State to be established in one of the vital nerve-centres of the world, where it will inevitably be a fresh cause of international complications. Of all the dangerous places in which to set up an unsupported, inexperienced State, I wonder whether at the present moment you could find a more perilous spot than the eastern end of the Mediterranean.
The Government have pronounced in very general terms in favour of the partition aspect of the Report. Governments are powerful machines, and it may be that, whether they like it or not, the two other parties concerned in Palestine may have to suffer the imposition of this scheme upon them. It is in that connection that I desire to make a suggestion. This part of the Report obviously contains considerable gaps which must be filled. It gives the impression of having been devised at a late stage of the Commission's deliberations. There is further to be borne in mind that, so far as I know, none of the voluminous evidence heard before the Commission, anyhow in public, was ever directed to this particular aspect of the problem at all. And there are, in the scheme as outlined by the Commission, proposals some of which I trust will be deleted, and others revised.
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I have not sufficient of what people who are not lawyers call the legal mind to possess a liking of precedent for its own sake, but if we are ever to act by experience rather by experiment, a good precedent has its uses, and I desire very briefly to expand and carry a stage further certain remarks that fell from the most reverend Primate in his speech yesterday, based upon his own authoritative experience in connection with the establishment of the Indian Constitution.
When that Constitution was under consideration there was first the Simon Report. Here there is the Peel Report. The next stage was the summoning of the Round-Table Conference. In the present juncture as regards Palestine that may be a counsel of perfection, which may fitly fall from the lips of the most reverend Primate but may not be feasible as a matter of practical politics, and it is possible that that stage will have to be omitted. The next stage was the sending out of a fact-finding Commission, whose business it was to investigate matters upon the spot. Then, and only then, there was presented to Parliament a White Paper in which were set out the plans of the Government, in so far as even at that stage they had crystallised, in order that Parliament might be in a position to express a view upon them. And it was at that stage that the then Secretary of State for India, Sir Samuel Hoare, said in another place, after referring to the complexity of the problem:
"It would be altogether unfair, it would be almost criminal, to ask the House and indeed to ask Indian public opinion, to come to definite decisions after two or three days' debate, after a series of speeches however important …. The Government and I wish at the earliest moment to ask for the cooperation of Parliament in our difficult task, to put our proposals before them, and to ask the Committee of both Houses to give us the great value of their advice before we ask the House to come to a final decision."
On the strength of that debate there was moved and passed in both Houses of Parliament a Resolution to the effect that
"before Parliament is asked to take a decision upon the proposals contained in Command Paper 4268 it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons, with power to call into consultation representatives of Indian States and of British India, be appointed to consider the future government of India, and in particular to examine and report upon the proposals in the said Command Paper."

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I realise that the problem of Palestine is a problem on a very different territorial scale from the problem of India, but it has its own difficulties and complexities, and it is charged with possible repercussions far outside the limits of that small country itself. I suggest to the noble Viscount that it might well appeal to the Government to call in the aid of a Select Committee of both Houses of Parliament to give final shape to the proposals adumbrated by the Commission if, and when, it is decided to put the partition scheme into operation at all. I am not unmindful of the value in this particular problem both of speed and of finality, but I prefer justice delayed to injustice accelerated, and I am convinced it would be in a spirit of far greater confidence and cooperation that proposals sealed with the imprimatur of a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament would be accepted by both parties in Palestine. Let it be understood that I am not for one moment suggesting that the forthcoming reference to the Mandates Commission of the League of Nations should be postponed. I realise to the full that necessary steps must be set in train and must be carried to their conclusion, but you can obtain from the Mandates Commission an assent in principle which still leaves for future discussion, as I hope by a Joint Committee of both House of Parliament, the details of the scheme. You can present to the Mandates Commission the frame of the picture and leave it in due course to a Joint Committee to sketch in the picture itself.
I do believe, if that course is followed, even at the cost of some delay, that it will be found that the delay has been worth while. I am not unmindful of the value to this country of Arab good will, but I trust your Lordships will not forget that in every country in which there are Jews there is a nucleus of almost passionate veneration for this country based upon the traditions of freedom, tolerance, and justice with which it is inspired, and I hope it may be that that good will too, coming though it may for the most part from poor and humble people, will not be regarded as a wholly negligible factor in a troubled and turbulent world.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, the first step to abate controversy is to obtain a clear idea of what the law is.
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In this debate there have been few references to the law of nations, and I rise to support partition by arguments derived from that law. I also wish to ask your Lordships to consider the fundamental change brought about in the legal position by the declaration yesterday of His Majesty's Government that the Mandate is impossible. There is no controversy in International Law regarding the proposition that a conquest by force of arms, followed by effective occupation, gives a title to the successful belligerents which takes the place of any previous sovereignty. In this Report there is one quotation which calls for reconsideration. It appears on page 147 and it is this:
"… the British had conquered the country from the Turks and were entitled to do what they liked with it."
The country was conquered from the Turks by the British and the Arabs, fighting against the Turks as co-belligerents. There were two principal co-belligerents: the Arabs were also Allies. The Jews were also Allies. Any co-ownership, even that of sovereignty, is detrimental to progress, and a partition was the natural consequence of that victory.
There has been a step towards partition inasmuch as the Arab co-belligerents from the South and the Arabs who fought on the Eastern flank have received as their share of the partition already gold, munitions, territory, status, and separate sovereignty. They ought to be fully satisfied with the generosity of that partition. The Arabs of Palestine are somewhat different as a community from the other Arabs. To a great extent there is both Arab descent and also Phoenician ancestry. The Arabs of Palestine contributed but a small part in providing armed men, and the share to which they are entitled in the partition, on any basis co-ordinated to the achievement, is a small share. The Jews were Allies without being co-belligerents, and their share in the partition must come from the share of the British. That partition has been called for from the very beginning is too obvious when these elementary principles of the law of nations are considered. The Report purports to offer to the Jews the very, maximum that could possibly be offered by the British from the British share of the partition, and to my noble friends on this side w ho have expressed regret at the small size of the

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Jewish allotment I would say: Please remember that you cannot get more than a pint out of a pint pot. There is no more to give, no more to come out of the British share, and the slice given to the Jews is great when their contribution to the conquest is considered.
All that the British are retaining from the partition is the custody of the Holy Places, a trusteeship for the trade routes, international property and trade interests on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean, and the right to keep free the transit of shipping from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean. The British nation is eminently indicated as the only stable custodian of the Holy Places, because the three outstandingly religious nations of the world to-day are the British, the Jews and the Mahomedans. The Jews and the Mahomedans do not, as part of their religion, preach religious toleration. With the British it is a principle because we are followers of a religion based on altruism, "Love your neighbour as yourself." But there is another duty that cannot be set aside—the protection, not for to-day or to-morrow but for as long as human wisdom can foresee and provide, of free access for shipping between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean. One hundred years are but a day in the life of a nation, and the lease of the Suez Canal will expire in this generation. Plans are already in contemplation for a parallel canal, and that would run from Akaba through the Wied el Arab to the neighbourhood of Gaza. Now I put it to your Lordships that in this partition the desert, which is now useless, should be kept in reserve as part of the share of the partition that should be British. It is of no value economically at present, but the trouble that may arise in the future, if it be ignored, makes it important that we should retain it. Let us remember how we parted, now with surprise, with the Ionian Islands, with Heligoland, with Tangiers and with Zanzibar, not to mention other territories that might have been retained with foresight because perhaps of lack of imagination and little knowledge of geography.
Now I pass to the question of the Mandate. A Mandate is essentially a relation at law which is finished and extinguished when the Mandatory has
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declared inability to fulfil it. It cannot subsist in law after that and, therefore, by the declaration made on behalf of His Majesty's Government yesterday, the legal position in Palestine becomes one that has to go back to where we all were just after the conquest. We have to think out what are the re-established relations of the co-belligerents, and the position as far as we are concerned is that we are there after a conquest. We have administered the country and occupied it effectively after a conquest by force of arms. We have made a partial partition with our strongest co-belligerents and Allies in the field, the Arabs from the south and the Arabs who fought on the flank, and we have still to come to terms with the Phoenicians and Arabs of Palestine and with the Jews who were Allies everywhere. We have to give to them from our share our very best. I do not see, once the Mandate has been declared impossible, what ground there is for approaching Geneva. The Arabs, who were co-belligerents and co-conquerors, were no parties to the Mandate. They protest against it, and they are now in a stronger position than ever to protest against any renewal of the Mandate. To go to Geneva now about the Mandate may, for want of anything better, be compared to divorced parties going to ask for a decree nisi. With the declaration made yesterday, the association is spent and finished, and any formal gesture of recognising that a third party has an overlordship when that third party was in the position of being at one time consulted, has no legal weight nor place within my conception of legal precedents or of the law of nations, based on the law of nature, apart of course from President Wilson's novel theories which have been tested experimentally and have not been very successful.
Now that which remains as the crucial point is the population question. It appears that the Arab population increases on a standard of from four and a half to five per family. With the Jews it is about one to one and a half per pair. Under those conditions it is obvious that the man-power of the Arabs which is now overwhelming will be more so in future and will be increasingly supported by other Arabs: so that the unknown factor is how far can that man-power of the Arabs in future be counterbalanced or

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altered by migration. Unless the British assert their rights and maintain in possession of all the share which the Report of the Commission does not definitely assign to others, the Arabs may one day assert their aspirations. I say that the British share should be held as part of the partition of a conquest and as the sequel of any new conversations with a third party, called a mandating authority. Unless the whole of the British share is held as part of a conquest and is held in trust for the custody of the Holy Places, and for the freedom of transit between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean, and to enable the Jews to enjoy to the fullest extent what we are giving them—which is the most we can give them—then future history may witness a new Exodus, and a new parallel of the first and second captivities of the Jewish population. Anyone with knowledge of Mediterranean mentality must see without doubt that the national aspirations and ambitions of those two races, Jews and Arabs, will never be extinguished except by the same methods by which they were dealt with in ancient history.
I now pass to say a few words with reference to what the noble Lord, Lord Snell, said about the non-success of Colonial Office administration, and I will try to be constructive. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, was perfectly justified in every word. He used language which might have surprised noble Lords on the Government Benches, but he did not go too far, because when it is reckoned that there are some lour dozen Dependencies under the Colonial Office and that there are only sixty minutes in an hour and eight hours in a working day, it becomes evident that ten minutes per Colony is a time measure of the responsibility exercised constitutionally by the Secretary of State. There is a Dominions Department, and as to that Department the less work it finds for itself the better it will be for the contentment of the Commonwealth. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, may, or may not, have included the Dominions Department in referring to the Colonial Office. At all events there would be good argument in favour of a transfer in the same building of Palestine Administration from one staff to the other. I speak with sympathy having entered as a civil servant some fifty years ago, and now enjoying two pensions, one for Crown Colony service and one for service in the self-governing
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Dominion, so that I may be excused if I say that from my experience the only practical way of giving effect to the suggestion of my noble friend opposite, Lord Snell, of eliminating the Colonial Office, is to create a new and independent committee, or if necessary a new secretariat, to deal with this question of Palestine in a transition stage, and in particular for the reasons indicated in the Report, which is quite clear.
The Report is a magnificent Report, plain spoken, thoughtful, constructive. It suggests that an organisation such as the Colonial Office is, is built up to deal with Dependencies in the West Indies, with Colonies across tropical Africa, and with islands in the Pacific, and therefore should have a staff in which men are trained under those conditions which are not, pyschologically, the most suitable atmosphere in which to learn to deal with nations with a long history, with acute intelligence, with traditions and with national aspirations and education. That is quite apart from the fact that these Mediterranean nations may have to be dealt with by officials trained to do every job in the average of ten minutes a working clay. The Report points out that the Colonial Office should not go on dealing with Palestine for these reasons, and therefore the noble Lord, Lord Snell, is amply supported by the Report itself. Those who have criticised have heretofore been described for using words similar to the words of the noble Lord, Lord Snell, as being "voices crying in the wilderness," but since the publication Of the Report there is no longer a single voice. The Report of the Royal Commission has been accepted by His Majesty's Government.
There are a few more words I should like to address to my noble friend Lord Snell, who has spoken of the possibility of working Palestine as one unit of nations notwithstanding hostile and irreconcilable aspirations and with different languages and religions and habits. I would ask him how he would like to preside over a deliberative assembly and have points of order raised in three languages. I have had experience in an Assembly in which three different languages were spoken, sometimes with great rapidity, when points of order were raised in a manner absolutely unintelligible from one side or the other without the mastery of the niceties of

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divers tongues. I am afraid my noble friend is entirely optimistic in his overgenerous hope that anybody could bring about the happy family development as an alternative to the proposals in this Report by a continuance of the Palestine State with three official languages, English, resurrected Hebrew and Arabic, which in Palestine sometimes approaches the Phoenician and sometimes does not. For these reasons this scheme of partition should be supported and the Colonial Department should turn over a new leaf, realising first and foremost that in the solution of these problems respect for the law, and a thorough effort to understand the law, is the first requisite of good government.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sure my noble friend Lord Snell would wish me to thank the noble Lord, Lord Strickland, for the kindly references he has made to his speech. The noble Lord will not expect me to follow him, even if I were competent to do so, into the very important questions of law which he has raised. It is a great pity that this debate could not have been brought to a conclusion yesterday, but the matter is very important and there are certain considerations which I think it right to put before your Lordships. In this debate we have had the case for the Jewish peoples throughout the world put with great force and clarity by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, and the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, and if he will allow me to say so, I think that every one of your Lordships must have been moved by Lord Melchett's speech. The case for the Arabs was put with great force and vigour and with his usual efficiency by the noble Marquess, Lord Dufferin. With the exception of the noble Lord who has just spoken, no one has put much emphasis on the British case, and I will endeavour to put that case as I see it.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: I hope the noble Lord will allow me to disclaim having stated the Jewish case.
LORD STRABOLGI: At any rate the noble Viscount spoke with great knowledge of the Jewish case and he made a very reasonable plea for the justice of the Jewish case. I do not want to misrepresent him in any way, or to suggest
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that he did not speak as a distinguished member of your Lordships' House and a citizen of the Empire. The first thing I want to do is to pay a tribute to the British troops—and as the noble Viscount, Lora Swinton, is present, I am sure he will be glad if I include the Royal Air Force—for the way in which last year they discharged a most difficult and delicate task. That task was accomplished with great success under the most appalling difficulties. I am going to make a suggestion which, if it is not directly germane to this particular debate, is nevertheless I think of some importance. I consider that these troops, who were on active service and in danger as their casualties showed, and who did their work extremely well under trying conditions, should have a medal. There should be a Palestinian medal. The private soldier particularly treasures a memento of that kind. The relatives of the men who were killed treasure these medals as heirlooms, and they mean a tremendous lot to the rank and file, who deserve them. I do not understand why the Government do not do this. I was talking to some friends of mine back from Italy the other day and they described the return of the so-called veterans from Abyssinia, of whom I suppose, as usually happens, nine out of ten had never heard a shot fired. These men were ablaze with medals and were proud of them and everybody else was proud of them. That is human nature. If you want recruits—you do not need them for the Air Force, I know, but you want men for the other forces—if you want recruits for the Army, you should think of these small matters. What is the cost? Two shillings a man, the cost, I suppose, of the rations that would have been given to the troops if they had staved an extra twenty-four hours. It is nothing in expense but it means a tremendous lot in sentiment.
The next thing which I want to say at once is that from the point of view of my Party, we support, and are doing so in another place now, the plea of the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, for a joint Select Committee. As the noble Lord, Lord Snell, said in his opening speech, why this rush and haste? Why this attempt almost to force this far-reaching programme through Parliament? The second thing is an answer to those who say there is no alternative to this partition, which, as I shall presently show, is

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unworkable and will never be worked and is full of danger to the British Empire. I submit that there are two alternatives to this utterly unworkable scheme, and they are the following. I will make bold to prophesy, and we shall find it is true in years to come. We can throw up the Mandate and give over Palestine to the great sea of Arabian people and the great mass of Arab country and let the Jews make what terms they can. We can do that and say that it is too much for us to carry the burden. We withdrew from Mesopotamia in the same way and we were right to withdraw in that case. Or we can stay there in the country and carry out the Mandate, which we have never attempted to do, as my noble friend pointed out yesterday afternoon.
I believe, from what I am told on military authority, that the country could be held by a-comparatively modest force of five or six battalions, and the necessary air units, if it were made clear that we intended to honour our bond and to carry out our declared policy. That would be a much less dangerous policy than is adumbrated in the Report and apparently to be adopted as a policy by His Majesty's Government. And you can reinforce that garrison. There are hundreds of thousands of young Jews who are in the most terrible economic situation in Europe and who would be only too willing to come to the country, many of them with capital, many of them with professions, and build it up. Open wide the doors to immigration! That is how we populated our great American possessions in the past. They will form the garrison in the future. Many of them will come as trained soldiers; they will be armed and should be allowed to defend themselves. That is the alternative, and, I submit, the only possible alternative, in the interests of the British Empire.
What are the interests of the British Empire? I am not going to be in any way reluctant to state them. Quite apart from the Mandate or the National Home for the Jews, we have very solid interests in Palestine. When this Report was issued, His Majesty's Ambassador in Rome was sent to Signor Mussolini to request him not to criticise it too heavily through the radio station at Bari. It was unnecessary ! This is the finest thing to further the ambitions of the leader of the Italian nation that could possibly have been proposed. He would not criticise it.
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He and his minions are already in touch with the Zionists, no doubt promising them all kinds of things, and I should not be at all surprised to hear that they were also working with the Arabs, as they have been in the past, and promising them all kinds of things as well.
LORD MELCHETT: I do not wish to interrupt the noble Lord, but I should like to ask him where he got that information that the head of the Italian State has been in touch with the Zionist organisations since this Report appeared.
LORD STRABOLGI: I did not mean to say that he had been in touch personally, but through his representatives. I got that from a very high official in the Zionist organisation, and I will give the name privately to the noble Lord afterwards. But we know that Italian influence has been behind these troubles. My noble friend Lord Snell referred to it, and other noble Lords have mentioned it. Now, what are our interests in Palestine? In the first place, can we afford to run the risk of having some other great Power establish itself in the Levant in this area? Surely the answer is No. Secondly—I have to run through these things rapidly, but they must be mentioned—our presence in Palestine serves as an additional safeguard, in case of need, for the defence of the Suez Canal. Thirdly, Palestine is on the direct air route to India and there are very important air stations in the country. Fourthly, at Haifa is the end of the pipeline from the Mosul oil-fields, and that is of great importance strategically and economically. Furthermore, one day there will be a railway built from Haifa to Baghdad. There ought to be a railway there now; it should have been started years ago; the survey is all completed and the plans are ready. This railway will be of very great economic and military importance. Haifa itself will be the finest harbour in the Levant and is of great importance to the Royal Navy. Your Lordships know these things, but it is necessary to mention them in order to make clear what I am now going to argue. Therefore, from a military and Imperialist point of view, from the point of view of the interests of the British Empire in case they are threatened by a war, it is essential that we should be there and adequately control the whole of that area.

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Now look at the map. Look at the proposed partition. I ask the noble Earl, the President of the Board of Education, as a soldier, how he would like to defend that little enclave, that salient up to Jerusalem, which we are bound to hold, as the most reverend Primate pointed out, because of the Holy Places and our responsibility there. From a military point of view this partition is indefensible. We are not going to clear out of Palestine, as the noble Marquess, Lord Dufferin, says. No, he says; we are going to maintain law and order, safeguard the Jewish State and prevent disturbances. The Jewish State, the part that runs along the seaboard, is a plain seven or eight miles wide in certain parts. The hills beyond are held by Arabs. In the old days the Jews used to hold the hills and the Philistines were on the plains. Now you reverse this situation. This land will be irredenta to the Arabs; they will always be looking jealously at it, and it will encourage them in murder, violence and revolt. They will not rest contented. They are not accepting partition, to begin with. There is no sign of any considerable body of Arabs accepting partition. When we are in trouble elsewhere, snipers and raiders will come down from the hills and the Jews will call for British protection. You are not going to allow the Jews to have a sufficient area for their defence. You are not allowing them to turn out in their thousands with their arms in their hands, to defend their own land and homes. We are responsible. Look at that plan, with this strip of land along the Levant Coast. It is an impossible situation.
Then take Nageb, the southern part. We have not had any specific answer about that. I will deal in one moment with the proposal that the noble Marquess made in his speech yesterday; but apparently that is to remain part of the Arab State. As we are at present advised, that is the hinterland of Akaba, a port of great importance on the Red Sea. I should very much like to ask the noble Viscount if military opinion has been consulted. I have failed to find any special reference to military opinion in the Report, and I do not find any strategical arguments at all. I am afraid that these matters have been overlooked. Not for the first time. I am not a militarist and
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I have played my part in trying to bring about peace and peaceful policies; but I think sometimes the Government in their policies abroad, and particularly in Spain, should consider the future military situation. I wish in this case they had done so. Yesterday the noble Marquess told us that certain rectifications of the boundaries could take place if the Arabs and the Jews agreed to ask for them together.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: And we liked their proposals.
LORD STRABOLGI: Then three Parties have all to agree. I would ask the noble Marquess what would happen if, as is probable, the Jews and the Arabs both refuse to accept this partition. I certainly would refuse in the case of the Jews. I think you are going to arouse great dissatisfaction amongst them, and I do not think they will accept it. I know that the Palestinian Jewish Labour party will not accept, because we have had their resolutions before my Party. Nor do I think the Arabs will accept it. If neither accepts it, do you then force this partition upon them by force of arms? I pause for a reply. From the British point of view I submit, and I repeat again particularly from the military, naval and air point of view, that this scheme of partition is quite indefensible. I do not believe it is workable. It is uneconomical, and I do not think it will work on political or economic grounds. All that will happen if you attempt to force it through is that three or four years hence I expect we shall have to reconquer the country under far worse conditions than now and it may be a very bad day for our country if His Majesty's Government persist in the present proposals before Parliament.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, we have had a very full, and if I may say so well informed, debate, and one feature particularly noticeable but not unexpected is that every speaker, whether he agreed or disagreed with the Report of the Commission, paid tribute to the Chairman and members of the Commission for the thoroughness of their study and their Report. They had the highest qualifications, and that they were unprejudiced goes without saying. The keenest critic has never suggested that they were

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not an absolutely unprejudiced body. Their Report was unanimous and in the opinion of the Government, and I think of the majority of the people of this country, their Report was not only unanimous but wise and fair. I am sure that any one who heard Lord Peel's speech yesterday would realise how deep was the sympathy and understanding with which he judged this question.
Criticism of course there has been, but, if I may say so, there has been no constructive criticism at all in this debate. The noble Lord behind me (Lord Strickland) made some legal criticisms. I am not going to deal with them, but I do not think he will find any lawyer other than himself to support his particular contention. I am advised that it is thoroughly unsound. We took the trouble to ascertain what was our legal position before we entered into the matter, and I can assure the noble Lord that the legal position is exactly opposite to what the noble Lord said.
I was told before I came to this House that I should hear die-hard speeches here, but I do not think I ever heard a more die-hard speech anywhere than the speech delivered by Lord Snell. He said that nothing ever would make him change his mind once he had made it up; that circumstances might change but he was not going to change his mind. And then he said that the Royal Commission had despaired of the patient. I do not think that that was a fair account of what the Commission either thought or did. I would say with more truth that the Commission made a penetrating diagnosis of the patient, and on that diagnosis recommended what they thought was the best and most effective cure. He said that the Government in the past—successive Governments, including the noble Lord's own—had not encouraged co-operation in Palestine. Whatever can be said about successive Governments and Administrations in Palestine, that at least cannot be said. Everyone has tried to get co-operation and invited Jews and Arabs to serve on boards and councils with singularly little success. I think three efforts have been made to achieve a Legislative Assembly, and without result, because it has proved unhappily to be practically impossible to get that co-operation. Yet the noble Lord said: "Well, it can still be done. It can be done if you find some unknown agnostic who believes in
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nothing himself, but who somehow will get from these people the faith which can move mountains."
Lastly, it was complained that it was outrageous that the Government should have pronounced an opinion upon this Report. Supposing the Government had pronounced no opinion, and that having received this Report the Government had met Parliament without expressing any view upon it: what would have been said then? It would have been said that the first duty of a Government is to make up its mind. I can imagine the criticism which would have been forthcoming if we had said we had no opinion about this matter. The Government did the thing which it was their bounden duty to do—namely, to make up their mind. We have made up our minds very definitely as to what we think is the wise and right course, and we have come to Parliament, and we shall go to the League giving the reason why we think that the broad principles of this Report are right and sound. Among all difficulties hardly anything is worse than uncertainty. I would add this, that I cannot imagine anything which could be more serious for that land than to have the Mandatory uncertain, shuffling, as to what was the right thing to do.
The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, in an interesting and moving speech, made a suggestion rather different from the most reverend Primate's, that we should have a Select Committee. It cannot be argued that we want a Select Committee to give Parliament the opportunity of expressing an opinion. Parliament has that opportunity to-day. As this business goes forward, Parliament will have its regular constitutional opportunities of expressing its views on the action which His Majesty's Government seek to take. It cannot be said there should be a Select Committee in order that Parliament may be able to express an opinion, and either support or reject the action we propose. If you had a Select Committee, it would be to conduct an inquiry—to do exactly that work which the Peel Commission has done so exhaustively and so admirably. Detailed inquiries, a boundary commission and so on—those matters of course require further investigation. But there is clear evidence in the Peel Report, admittedly the most exhaustive review that has been made on which to

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take a decision, and what is necessary now is that we should all take a decision upon that evidence and upon those findings.
Then there was the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. Incidentally he made the criticism that more money should have been spent on Arab education. I do not want to dispute that matter, but I would only say this in relation to what is the difficulty before us to-day, that is, the difficulty of getting co-operation. If there had been more Arab education it certainly would not have made for cooperation between Arabs and Jews. For four years I was responsible for Palestine in the Colonial Office, and what one had tried to do elsewhere seemed to be the sort of ideal solution: could you make English the lingua franca, as it is rapidly becoming, of the Empire? Of course, you cannot do this. You insist that Arab education should be in Arab hands, that it should be conducted in the Arab language, and the Jewish education in the Jewish language, and I think the noble Viscount himself admitted that schoolmasters in the Arab schools are the greatest teachers of Arab nationalism. Certainly an extension of that education would not have been a way to secure the co-operation between the two peoples.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: It was not I who said that.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Well, I do not think the noble Viscount would deny it. Then he went on to a very facile criticism of the proposals of the Commission. It is always easy to criticise any solution of a very difficult case, and his criticism was tolerated because we all understood, as he explained at the beginning, that he himself had a great plan to disclose, which would solve this problem and would make an equal appeal to both Arab and Jew. What was it? The first thing was that the Jews should voluntarily limit their immigration either to some fixed figure or to some proportionate figure. Does he suppose that any Arab would accept that proposal? Does he suppose that any Arab would accept it, or believe in it if it were made? Then the Arab and the Jew were to co-operate in a great Arab federation. As he knows from his experience, and I know from my four years at the Colonial Office, the difficulty was to get them to co-operate on a Board
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of Works: are they likely to co-operate in an Arab Federation? Trans-Jordan, which he said was rightly, under the pledges, excluded from the National Home, was to be thrown open to Jewish immigration. Does he think any Arab would accept that?
Then, in place of self-government, which certainly the Arabs and, I believe, the Jews also, would desire to have, there was to be this extraordinary communal enterprise, where apparently in every village and town a Jewish organisation and an Arab organisation were to have control over their own nationals in relation to education, health and something else. In so far as such a thing is indeed a concrete proposal, it seems to me it would be partition of every town and village in Palestine. But on the great affairs neither was to have any power. A joint consultative body, which both sides—certainly the Arabs—have always refused to take part in, and this consultative body with no power, with mutual criticism within its ranks, and criticism, no doubt, of the Mandatory Government, but government remaining in the hands of the Mandatory Power ! What Arab or what Jew is going to accept that self-denying ordinance and New Model? He said himself, at the beginning of his speech, that he did not suppose one of them would accept it.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: I did not say that.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I read the speech again. At any rate the noble Viscount was not very sanguine that either side would accept it. Well, if proposals are going to be put forward as great constructive proposals, and as an alternative to the Commission's proposals, we really ought to have something which there is some possible chance of somebody accepting, and some proposal which would work, and I venture to say that neither one nor the other is true of this proposal.
I turn to the realities of the situation and the Commission's recommendations, but first I want to answer specifically certain questions which were put. The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, in a very eloquent speech put one or two definite questions. He said in effect: "You talk about an independent State. Does 'indepenclent' mean independent?" The

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answer is—Yes, emphatically it does. He put this question: "If you have an Arab State and a Jewish State, would they be able to control their Customs?" Answer—emphatically Yes. It is quite reasonable, I think, that the Royal Commission should have made recommendations as to a practical way of trying to unify Customs. Quite obviously you have a frontier which, from an administrative point of view, is not a convenient one to operate. A great deal can be done if you have common rates of duties, through transit, and all that sort of thing. That is obviously good sense and good business, but the right of the State to impose its own duties, to raise its own taxes—emphatically Yes. He said:" Would there be a right to make a port?" I appreciate that suggestion made in the Report of the Commission—I think a wise suggestion. It would be desirable if a new port is to be established that it should be a port which should serve both States. I think that is a practical suggestion. It would certainly, I think, be inherent in the existence of a separate and independent State that, if it desired to establish a port at its own expense and in its own territory it should have the right to do so, though it would probably be very good business to make a port in a convenient place which could serve both.
He asked me to be specific about Haifa. I am not going to. I think Haifa is a case where judgment must be suspended. After all, Haifa is not only the great port of Palestine. It is a great deal more than that. It is not only the exit of the pipe line. When we were considering the port of Haifa, there lay in our minds not only the great development that has come in Palestine, but also the great hinterland and the whole of the Middle East which that port is designed to serve. It is, I consider, very wise to reserve judgment upon that.
LORD MELCHETT: Could the noble Viscount tell us anything about how or when or by whom judgment on Haifa will eventually be rendered?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Ultimately it will have to be a judgment proposed and approved by His Majesty's Government.
LORD MELCHETT: And the League of Nations?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: No doubt the League of Nations would express its view.
LORD MELCHETT: I take it that Haifa is not included in the Jewish state?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: One cannot take from me anything more than I have said, and I was very careful to say—a perfectly honest statement—that on Haifa we thought it necessary to suspend judgment. That does not mean that judgment is going to be given either for the plaintiff or the defendant. It simply means judgment is suspended. It is a quite clear and honest answer. My noble friend Lord Lytton expressed anxiety about British interests—great companies with British capital. It is a natural anxiety, but is he not anxious to-day? Surely one's greatest anxiety must be if you are trying to operate in a country seething with discontent. You may maintain law and order, but you cannot prevent every act of sabotage, if such there might be. But leave that aside. The noble Earl knows from his conduct of this successful enterprise, as of others, how much depends upon there being sound, confident, secure conditions where you operate—an absence of malaise, a general willingness on the part of the people. These are the things which are necessary in order to make an enterprise succeed. I would say to him: "Are you not much more likely to obtain these conditions under a settlement which does resolve contending differences, does remove fundamental difficulties which are aggravating the country of Palestine at the present time?"
I do not see why there should be jeopardy for an enterprise because it falls inside one State or the other. Let my noble friend take the example of the State of Iraq, another Arab State. Enormous sums of British money were sunk in that country. Iraq passed from a Mandate to become a sovereign State, but I am not aware that there has been any failure. Not only has there been no anxiety to withdraw money from these enterprises, but actually more money has gone into developments, and more money is coming out from those developments. I would therefore suggest that, under self-government, whether the enterprise be in the Arab State or in the Jewish State, there would be a very reasonable sense of security for that business.

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Then I was asked specifically by Lord Strabolgi whether strategic considerations had been wholly lost sight of. The answer is No. He put to me the question: Had they been considered? Certainly, and they were considered, appropriately, by our military advisers—I use that term in the largest sense—in all three Services. These proposals were advised upon by them and acceptable to them, provided of course—and this would be essential to secure—that there are proper provisions which would appropriately be made in the Treaties with the two countries. But they have laid stress, too, on this, and it is a consideration which even the layman can appreciate—the greatest security you can have is peace. If this is likely to bring peace, that is the greatest security which we can have in that land.
I turn now to the broad reasons why we support these proposals. They hold the field. I was interested to hear Lord Lugard, speaking yesterday with his experience as the British Representative for so long on the Mandates Commission, and with his wide administrative experience, endorsing partition as in his opinion the right and, to-day, the only way. These proposals are not recommended by the Commission or accepted by His Majesty's Government as an easy way of avoiding our responsibilities, but because we believe they are a wise and fair solution. We have not shirked—we shall not shirk—our responsibilities. Looking back over seventeen years, the Mandate has been discharged without fear or favour, with a single-minded endeavour to carry out its terms, to be scrupulously fair. Administrations have been criticised, but it is perhaps true to say they have been criticised by both sides, Arab and Jewish. Is it not perhaps fair to say that that criticism has come from both sides because the Mandatory has tried—and I think successfully—to hold the balance fairly? We accept the proposals because we think them fair and right. We shall certainly not shirk our duty to maintain law and order. Any disorder will be promptly and effectively suppressed.
LORD STRABOLGI: You will not be there.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Of course we will be. We are there now. But looking to the future, if we face it as realists, what are the alternatives? Quite clearly, Palestine can neither be wholly Jewish nor wholly Arab. There was the extraordinary suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, speaking, I suppose, for his Party, that the correct solution was an unlimited Jewish immigration armed to the teeth. Plainly that would be contrary to the Mandate, and I do not think it would be a happy augury of peace. It would be a clear breach of the Mandate.
LORD STRABOLGI: Why?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Because the immigration has to be limited, under the Mandate, by the consideration that it is not to prejudice the Arab population. If the noble Lord reads the Mandate he will see the dual duty set out clearly and he will see that his suggestion is perfectly plainly a breach of the Mandate. One alternative therefore is to continue the Mandate, in the hope that you will get co-operation leading to a co-operative State; but in the light of all that has happened, on the facts as so clearly and fairly found by the Commission, does anybody really believe that we are likely to get a co-operative State of that kind? Nor can it be argued that if the Administration had been other than it was that result would have been more likely to be achieved. The Commission come back again and again to the conclusion that all along there has been this fundamental incompatibility, and that the more the Mandate has been operated the more steadily it has grown. What then is the alternative? The alternative is partition, an Arab State and a Jewish State, the British Government to remain in charge, with the Mandate, of the Holy Places, and, in the area proposed, self-government for Arab and Jew in their respective territories.
As one who did try, and tried hard, to promote that co-operation and hoped it might succeed, may I say three things both to Arabs and to Jews? The first is this. Neither would have the opportunity which is there to-day but for Great Britain and British arms in the War. Let both compare what the position was in 1914. The Arabs then not an

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Arab State, not an independent Arab acre in the world; to-day a great part of a continent under independent Arab rule. The fact of Arab nationalism and the demand that Arab nationalism makes for Palestine is due entirely to the possibility of the Arabs realising in Palestine an Arab State such as has been realised in Arabia and in Iraq, and that is due to British lives laid down in the War, to British efforts. And is not that equally true for the Jews? I think indeed they have very often recognised it. Before the War: the Jewish National Home, an idea, a dream, a dream in which they believed; Uganda refused thirty years ago because of the hope that they might come to Palestine. The fact that 300,000 Jews have now come to Palestine is due to British arms and British victory and British peace.
Let me say this second thing. Partition offers to both self-government and the control of their own affairs. The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, yesterday made an eloquent plea for Jewish immigration at a time when, he said, the Jewish race needed it most. There is understanding of that, there is sympathy with that, but will it not be better, more largely discharged, if the Jews have control of a Jewish State? They have not been satisfied with the immigration which the Mandatory has felt able to give from time to Time, although the Arabs have always said it was a great deal too much. The Commission have said that you have to take into account certainly the whole economic question. But now other questions have come up. Let us be realists in this, my Lords. British lives have been lost in this manner. We have to take into account many considerations. The Jews have shown, in the development of their territory there, how much can be done with a little. It is indeed a most remarkable thing to see, as you can there, not only the intense agricultural development but research work perhaps second to none in the world, and practice following on the research. Let all of that be looked at. It was said years ago that there was no room for any more population, yet intensive agriculture found a way, and not only intensive agriculture but great industry, and that industry has found its market not only in the development of Jewish agriculture but has found it through all those strange ways in which the trader large and small has penetrated both east and west.
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I remember how intensely interested I was in seeing industries grow up. I was told by a rather short-sighted critic: "What is the good of having these industries in Palestine, there will never be a population to buy the goods that they manufacture?" The Jews were not thinking only of the population of Palestine; they were thinking that their wares were going, with their knowledge and technique, into markets all over the world. That development has taken place, and I say with deep sincerity to men like the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, that I honestly believe that they will have a much greater opportunity of carrying that development forward, that they will sustain, and sustain with peace and good will, a larger Jewish population in the Jewish State which may be small in territory—after all England is not a very big country but it supports a great many people—that they will do better that which they desire to do in a State they are able to govern themselves. And to the Arabs I would say: "You desire a State which can play its part as a unit in an Arab world. An Arab State in Palestine offers you that opportunity?" Lastly, I would say this: To-day, in an anxious, suspicious, distracted world, what is the greatest need and the greatest longing? It is the desire for peace, and the Commission, in their recommendation, do offer alike to Arab and to Jew in Palestine the inestimable boon of peace.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, I rise to make a personal explanation. It is my duty to inform your Lordships' House that the speech that I have delivered on this question was submitted for legal advice after an appointment in a lawyer's office. My accuracy is not a question of one lawyer's opinion but of two lawyers' opinions. Moreover, I would consider it disrespectful to your Lordships' House if I proposed Bills or propounded opinions on legal questions unless I had previously taken the trouble to obtain the best legal advice. The challenge which the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, delivered against me would, in another place, never be delivered except by a Law Officer of the Crown, and I am entitled to say that it ought not to have been delivered here as it has been.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I do not wish to continue this debate on a very

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unimportant matter. The noble Lord made some statements, which I really was not going to deal with, that there was no duty upon us to go to the League of Nations, and that nobody in the League of Nations or no nation in the world had any right to be consulted in this matter. That is not a view which I venture to think any lawyer would sustain.
LORD STRICKLAND: The noble Viscount has not understood what I said, or represented me correctly or completely. It is very unfortunate. It is not the first time.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Snell has had to leave the House but he has asked me to say that he does not wish to press his Motion for Papers. I know he would wish me to thank the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, and also the noble Viscount, Lord Dufferin, for their very full replies
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to make a statement about business. My noble friend the Leader of the House has asked me to say that in the circumstances of the Session, business being pressing and time short, he proposes to ask the House to meet at midday on Friday next in order to give a Third Reading to the Factories Bill, the Report stage of which is being taken to-morrow. This will enable reasonable time to be given to another place to consider the Amendments made in the Bill by your Lordships. My noble friend understands that this course is generally acceptable to your Lordships. It is expected also on Friday to receive the Milk Bill from another place.
House adjourned at eight o' clock.