Sitting of 7 December 1937

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BRIDGWATER EXTENSION) BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the borough of Bridgwater," presented by Sir Kingsley Wood; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 65.]

CIVIL CONTINGENCIES FUND, 1936.
Copy ordered,
"of Accounts of the Civil Contingencies Fund, 1936, showing (1) the Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1937; (2) the Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; together with a Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon."—[Lieut.-Colonel Colville.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  NEWFOUNDLAND (POST OFFICE TELEGRAPHISTS).
  Mr. Lunnasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that Post Office telegraphists in Newfoundland are not graded as Civil servants although they are paid by the Government, and that they have no promotion rights into the Post Office Department although they combine the duties of telegraphist and postmaster at the outport offices; that when financial difficulties arose their wages were severely cut, and, although minor adjustments have been made since, their wages are still meagre, ranging in the larger offices from 45 to 93 dollars per month and in the smaller offices from 10 to 65 dollars per month; that there is no pay for overtime work
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  and that the usual working time is from 9 to 12 hours per day; that, in an effort to improve their conditions these men have combined together in forming a division of the Commercial Telegraphers' Union, but the Department have refused to recognise the organisation on the ground that the men should have no affiliation with organisations in another country, although it is an autonomous unit and would conduct its own negotiations; that an appeal to the chairman of the Government Commission against this decision has failed; that sections of the Commercial Telegraphers' Union are recognised in Canada; and whether he will take the necessary steps to have this matter reconsidered?
  The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): I am consulting the Governor regarding the questions raised, and will communicate with the hon. Member on receipt of his reply. In the meantime I may say that the Commission of Government have recently had under review the salary scales of assorting clerks and telegraphists at St. John's and of telegraph assistants in the more important offices in the out-ports, and that with my approval, improved scales of salary were introduced for both these classes of employés last month.
  Mr. Lunn: Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that these men have the right to join a trade union, which is the union recognised in Canada? Will he see to it that this disability is removed? Should they not have the same right as they would have here and be able to negotiate through their trade union?
  Mr. MacDonald: I do not think that I can say any more until I have had an answer from the Government, and I will let the hon. Member know.

  SOUTH AFRICAN PROTECTORATES (WORKERS, RECRUITMENT).
  Mr. Palingasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has obtained any assurances from the Union of South Africa which would enable him to consider the application of the International Labour Office Recruiting of Indigenous Workers Convention of 1936 to the Protectorates of South Africa?
  Mr. M. MacDonald: Yes, Sir, but the question whether in applying the Convention to the High Commission Territories in South Africa it will be necessary to provide for some modification in respect of the provision relating to the payment of travelling expenses is still under consideration.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman make serious representations on this matter, because the question is very widely applicable to the Protectorates, and is equally applicable to Nyasaland?
  Mr. MacDonald: My reply was that the matter is still under consideration.

  ALBERTA (LOANS).
  Mr. H. G. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has any further statement to make in respect of the default of the Government of Alberta?
  Mr. M. MacDonald: I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for South-West St. Pancras (Sir G. Mitcheson) on 23rd November, except that I understand from Press reports that the Provincial Government of Alberta is taking steps to appeal against the judgment of the Supreme Court referred to in that reply.
  Mr. Petherick: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that these defaults are in a large measure due to putting into practice an obviously unsound scheme?
  Mr. Stephen: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the default has been because of the difficulties made by the Dominions Government and the Provincial Government in carrying through a sound social reform?
  Mr. MacDonald: It is obvious that it would be quite out of place for me to make any comment on the matter.

  BASUTOLAND.
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what was the total percentage of the adult male population of Basutoland which was absent from the territory on employment at the last date for which figures are available?
  Mr. M. MacDonald: According to the census returns for 1936 approximately 40 per cent. of the male population of Basutoland of Bantu race aged 15 and over was then absent from the territory on employment elsewhere.
  Mr. Riley: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this is a very high percentage and that it is not conducive to the social well-being of people in Basutoland?
  Mr. MacDonald: It certainly is a high percentage, but I think that the hon. Member will appreciate that there are things to be said on both sides, and it would be impossible to enter into a discussion of the matter by question and answer.
  Mr. Lunn: Is there a labour department which looks after the interests of these men who are doing labour outside this territory?
  Mr. MacDonald: There is a labour union looking after the interests of workers in the outlying territories.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    ANGLO-UNITED STATES TRADE AGREEMENT NEGOTIATIONS.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that, under the Act of Congress, American industries which may be affected under the proposed schedules of the Anglo-American trade agreement will be given an opportunity of making representations to the American director of commerce, he will ensure that similar opportunities will be given to British agriculture and British industry?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. H. G. Williams) on 2nd December.
    Mr. De la Bère: Will the Government assure the House that the National Farmers' Union and leaders of industry throughout the country will be consulted as it will be too late after negotiations have taken place?
    Mr. Stanley: We shall follow the usual practice in these matters, and it is open to any bodies to make representations,

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    and, indeed, many of them have already been asked to do so.
    Mr. A. V. Alexander: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no invitations of that kind are issued to organised consumers, and have not the consumers a say in this mattre?
    Mr. Stanley: That is another point.
    Mr. H. G. Williams: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether an assurance has already been given to motor car manufacturers that duties against American cars are not to be reduced?
    Mr. Stanley: As far as I am aware no such assurances have been given to anyone.
    Mr. Peatasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the negotiations for a trading agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States of America, he will consider the possibility of relieving the present burden of double taxation between the two countries?
    Mr. Stanley: No, Sir. This is not a matter which falls within the scope of the negotiations for an Anglo-United States trade agreement.
    Mr. Peat: Can my right hon. Friend say why it does not fall within the scope of an agreement of that character?
    Mr. Stanley: My right hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has explained many of the difficulties that arise in connection with it, which would make it quite impossible at the moment to find an agreed basis for negotiation which would make it possible to include it in this agreement.
    Mr. Peat: Does the difficulty arise because of the reluctance that the United States of America may have to enter into such an arrangement?
    Mr. Stanley: This matter is primarily one for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and any question dealing solely with this matter should be addressed to him. I am assured that any attempt to include this in an Anglo-American agreement would be bound to end in failure.
    Sir Joseph Nall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is of very considerable importance and that it is not
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    a proper subject to come within the scope of the agreement?
    Mr. Stanley: I think that it is eminently a subject for agreement, if we could get one, but not in this agreement.

    ITALIAN PLUMS (IMPORT).
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether seeing that the imports of Italian plums, greengages and damsons into the United Kingdom for the 10 months ended October, 1937, exceeded the imports for the whole 12 months of 1936, he will take steps to restrict the import of Italian plums?
    Mr. Stanley: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to him on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries on 29th November.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the difficulties this year of growers in the Vale of Evesham, and is it not the fact that the home producers should come before the Italians?
    Mr. Stanley: I assure the hon. Member that I have every sympathy with the growers in the Vale of Evesham. The answer to which I referred the hon. Member explained the proper course to be taken.
    Mr. Thorne: Is the Minister aware that no one picked the plums grown in the division of the hon. Member because they could not get a proper price for them?

    WAR MATERIAL (EXPORT LICENCES).
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any licences have been issued in the last three months for the export of arms and war material to Italy or for the use of the Italian forces in Abyssinia?
    Mr. Stanley: As has been previously explained in this House, His Majesty's Government consider that it is contrary to the public interest to publish particulars of licences issued for the export of arms and ammunition to particular destinations. I may, however, add that during the period 1st August to 31st October, 1937, the values of the exports from the United Kingdom of arms, ammunition and military and naval stores to Italy and to Eritrea, Italian Somaliland and Ethiopia were respectively £20 and nil.

    FILM INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Dayasked the President of the Board of Trade particulars of estimates supplied to his Department in respect of films made abroad and exhibited in this country for the 12 months ended to the last convenient date, and the figures of the amounts expended in the hire of British films produced under the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927, that have been hired by foreign countries during the comparable period?
    Mr. Stanley: It is not possible to furnish precise information, but it is estimated that the amount of the payments made abroad in respect of film royalties during 1936 was of the order of £6,000,000, while the receipts from British films shown abroad were probably less than £1,000,000.
    Mr. Day: Is it possible for that information to be given to the Committee considering the Cinematograph Films Bill, as it would be of great interest to them?
    Mr. Stanley: I have no doubt that hon. Members who are sitting on that Committee will read the OFFICIAL REPORT and will see the information there.

    JAPANESE ELECTRICAL ACCESSORIES (IMPORT).
    Mr. Shortasked the President of the Board of Trade the volume of imports of Japanese bakelite electrical accessories during the last eight months; whether the retail prices of these articles are considerably lower than those of British manufacture: whether the question has been recently reviewed by the Import Duties Advisory Committee and, if so, with what result?
    Mr. Stanley: I regret that I cannot supply information as to the volume of imports of bakelite electrical accessories from Japan as accessories of bakelite are not recorded separately from those made of other materials. An application for increased duty on certain electrical accessories has been made to the Import Duties Advisory Committee who have no doubt taken the question of retail prices into consideration, but in regard to the last part of the question I must refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 8th July last to the hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte).
    Mr. T. Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman discourage buyers in this country from purchasing anything from Japan?
    Mr. Stanley: That is rather a different question.
    Mr. R. C. Morrison: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Japanese wireless sets are being retailed in this country at 24s. and 25s. each?

    AMERICAN BOOTS AND SHOES.
    Mr. Macquistenasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many of the women of this country prefer boots and shoes made in the United States of America as being more in conformity with, and less liable to injure, the foot than those made in this country but are unable to purchase the same on account of the prohibitive tariff; and will he take steps to have the tariff reduced?
    Mr. Stanley: Any question of a variation in the rate of import duty on boots and shoes is a matter for consideration, in the first instance, by the Import Duties Advisory Committee.
    Mr. Macquisten: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that shoes and boots which are within the reach of working-class women definitely injure their feet and produce lameness, and great suffering and ill-health are caused? Will he call the attention of the Minister of Health to this fact?
    Mr. Shinwell: May I ask whether the President has noted the changed views of one of his supporters on the fiscal question?
    Mr. Stanley: I always thought with the hon. and learned Member that when the shoe pinched it was because there was not enough protection.
    Mr. H. G. Williams: Is it not the case that the proportion of chiropodists in the United States is much greater than in England?

    SPANISH IRON ORE.
    Mr. A. Jenkinsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the iron ore now being imported into this country from Spanish territory in the occupation of the insurgents is produced by Basque loyalists, who are compelled to work long hours and under conditions of slavery,

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    he will prohibit the importation of iron ore from this source?
    Mr. Stanley: Apart from any questions as to the facts, I have no power to prohibit the importation of iron ore in the absence of discriminatory treatment of goods exported from this country.
    Mr. Jenkins: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of Basque loyalists are now being compelled to work under forced conditions in the mines from which this ore is being extracted, and will he make inquiries as to the conditions obtaining there?
    Mr. Stanley: I do not think that is really relevant. If I made inquiries I have no power in the matter.

    STEEL RODS (PRICE).
    Mr. R. Aclandasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any and, if so, what increase in the price of steel rods for reinforced concrete has been approved by the Import Duties Advisory Committee during the last 18 months?
    Mr. Stanley: The price of steel rods for reinforced concrete was increased with the assent of the Import Duties Advisory Committee on 1st June, 1936, by 6s. a ton; on 1st January, 1937, by 3s. a ton; and on 1st May, 1937, by £1 19s. a ton for rods of untested quality and by £2 8s. a ton for rods of tested and guaranteed quality.
    Mr. Acland: Can the right hon. Gentleman say, roughly, what 3s. per ton increase since June, 1937, represents as a percentage?
    Mr. Stanley: If the hon. Member can do the arithmetic, I can tell him that the price before that increase was £8 9s. per ton.
    Mr. Acland: If I bring to his notice a case of an increase of 27 per cent., will he look into it and ascertain whether it is right?
    Mr. Stanley: I shall be glad to receive any case from the hon. Member.
    Mr. Alexander: Is the President aware that in many cases where the supply of structural steel cannot be obtained for building clients have been recommended to use concrete construction, and that this heavy increase of duty is stopping that method of building as well?
    Mr. Stanley: The right hon. Member will realise that these increases are the inevitable consequence of the increase some time ago in basic steel prices.
    Mr. Peat: Is it not the case that the British price for this steel is still below the American price and the Continental price?

    GERMANY (CREDITS).
    Mr. Priceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any negotiations on the renewal of the standstill agreement for the pre-1931 short-term credits owed by Germany to British firms are pending; whether the Treasury will be represented at any negotiations; and whether he will take action at these negotiations to ensure that Germany's export surplus will be used for fulfilling her commercial obligations abroad before it is spent in rearmament?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): Negotiations regarding the standstill credits are, I understand, now in progress. His Majesty's Government are not a party to or represented at these negotiations which are between representatives of the German debtors and their banking creditors.
    Mr. Price: In view of the seriousness of this matter and its political repercussions, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer not consider the advisability of having a Treasury representative there to watch the negotiations?
    Sir J. Simon: I think the standstill agreement was arrived at in the same way, and those who are concerned, both on this side and on the other side, are extremely competent to deal with the matter.

    FOOD SUPPLIES (STORAGE).
    Major Raynerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in connection with the organisation of the food supplies of the country, he will consider advising those families which are in a position to do so permanently to double their normal storage of non-perishable articles; and whether, since this policy could be adopted in peace time, but not when war had actually broken out, he will give the suggestion early consideration?
    Mr. O. Stanley: The suggestion made by my hon. and gallant Friend has received careful consideration during recent months, but I am not prepared to adopt it at the present time.

  TERRITORIAL ARMY.

    COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY.
    Captain Arthur Evansasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can now state the name of the chairman and the members of the committee of inquiry into the general administration of the Territorial Army?
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hore-Belisha): My Noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State will be chairman of the committee. The members will be:

    Major-General Sir John Brown, K.C.B., C.B.E., D.S.O., T.D.,

    Colonel the Viscount Cobham, C.B., T.D.,

    Colonel Sir Robert Johnson, K.C.V.O., K.B.E., T.D., and

    Mr. J. R. Wade.

    The Secretary will be Brigadier-General R. W. Hare, C.M.G., D.S.O.

    RECRUITS.
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for War the number of recruits accepted for the Territorial Army during the 12 months ended to the last convenient date?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: During the 12 months ended 31st October last, 43,933 recruits were finally approved for the Territorial Army, being an increase of 10,536 on the number finally approved during the 12 months ended 31st October, 1936. The figure is a record one for a normal year.
    Mr. Day: Is it a fact that some recruits are rejected for some units because they are already over the establishment?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The hon. Member is perfectly correct. There are waiting lists in the case of some units, and the services of these applicants cannot, therefore, be utilised in those establishments.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    BOYS (SMOKING).
    Mr. MacNeill Weirasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the action of the commanding officer of the headquarter company of the 2nd Battalion, Black Watch, at present stationed at Jerusalem, in writing to Mr. Malcolm MacMillan, 55,
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    Blytheswood Street, Glasgow, the father of John MacMillan, a boy of 17 years of age, at present serving with the regiment, asking permission to flog the boy for smoking; whether this action has his approval; and what steps he is taking in the matter?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I am sorry the hon. Member should use the word "flog," of which there can be no question. No boy may receive corporal punishment in the Army without the parent's consent.
    Mr. MacNeil Weir: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the word "flog" in the Oxford Dictionary is given as meaning "to beat," and that the word used by the Commanding Officer was "beat"? Further, is he aware that this boy was within a few months of arriving at the age at which it is permitted for a boy to smoke in the Army, and that outside in civilian life a boy is allowed to smoke at 16. Does the right hon. Gentleman think the seriousness of the offence warrants this punishment?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: As to the first question of the hon. Member, if the word "beat" was used, I do not see why he changed it into the word "flog." The boy has not been subjected either to beating or flogging, or any form of corporal punishment. As regards the advantage of smoking or otherwise at 16 years of age, that is a matter of opinion, but the Army acting towards these boys in loco parentis, endeavours to bring them up in the healthiest possible way.
    Mr. MacNeill Weir: This is rather a serious matter. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is the second time this officer has written to parents in Glasgow—
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is now giving information.
    Mr. MacNeill Weir: I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to this matter at the first opportunity.

    CEREBRO-SPINAL FEVER.
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for War the number of cases of cerebro-spinal fever reported and admitted to hospital, from the various stations throughout Great Britain, for the 12 months ended to the last convenient date?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: During the twelve months ended 30th November last, the numbers of soldiers admitted to hospital on account of cerebro-spinal fever were as follow: London 8, Woolwich 4, Caterham 3, Bury (Lanes.) 2, and one each at Aldershot, Canterbury, Halifax, Lichfield and Preston. Three soldiers' children were also admitted, one each at London, Parkhurst and Woolwich.
    Mr. Day: Are these figures increasing or decreasing among the military population?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I cannot say without notice.

    MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State for War the number of men serving in the Army whose wives are receiving public assistance, owing to the inability of their husbands to maintain them adequately out of Army pay?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Men who marry below the age which renders them eligible for marriage allowance are not compelled to report the fact, and there is, therefore, no means of knowing the number of cases of this kind.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a large number of cases of this kind, and does he regard this fact as being desirable in the interests of the Army?
    Mr. Speaker: The Minister is not called upon to give an opinion at Question Time on a matter of this kind.
    Mr. Shinwell: I will ask a question which does not evoke his opinion. I will ask him a question about the facts. If he is concerned about the reorganisation of the Army, will he regard this matter as being equally important?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I shall naturally pay attention to the views of the hon. Member, who is aware from his own experience at the War Office that there is a definite age at which soldiers are permitted to marry.

    ACCIDENT, WOOLWICH ARSENAL.
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can make any statement about the accident at Woolwich Arsenal on 2nd December in which four men were injured; and what was the cause of the accident?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The four men in question were employed by a contractor carrying out repairs to a roof in the Royal Arsenal. I regret to learn that they were accidentally injured on the date mentioned owing to the collapse of some scaffolding erected by the contractor.
    Mr. Thorne: Are these men receiving their proper compensation?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: They are employés of the contractor, and I should imagine that the ordinary process will be followed.

    GENERAL STAFF.
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for War whether any further reorganisation of the Higher Command is contemplated in the near future?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The hon. Member will recall that I replied yesterday to a question on this subject.
    Mr. Bellenger: Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that in his statement yesterday he talked about the principle he is following in the future reorganisation, and in view of the deduction that can be arrived at from that statement, will he extend this principle to its wider aspect in the Higher Command?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Yes, Sir. The statement I made was not restricted in its aspect.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the financial position of these officers who are dismissed will be protected?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha.
    Mr. Leach: Will the right hon. Gentleman take the Cabinet in hand as well?
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for War whether the new Chief of the Imperial General Staff, the Adjutant-General, and the Master of the Ordnance are all younger than the officers they replace; and whether he will give the average ages of the officers comprising the general staffs of the British, French, German, and Japanese armies?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The new Chief of the Imperial General Staff and the new Adjutant-General to the Forces are both younger that the officers they replace. The Master-General of the Ordnance is not being replaced as such. The officer to be

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    appointed Deputy Master-General of the Ordnance is younger than the present Master-General of the Ordnance. As regards the last part of the question, if by general staffs the hon. and gallant Member means the senior military officers in positions roughly comparable with those of the Military Members of the Army Council, the average ages in France, Germany and Japan are about 63, 57 and 53, respectively, compared with 55 for the Military Members of the reconstituted Army Council.

    COMMISSIONED OFFICERS.
    Sir Arnold Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for War what is the total shortage of commissioned officers in the Regular Army of the rank of second lieutenant, lieutenant, captain, and above at the last convenient date and at the corresponding date 12 months ago?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The ranks of captain and above are kept filled by promotion, so the total shortage in commissioned officers in the Regular Army is in lower ranks. On 1st November, 1936, the shortage was 506. Since then the strength has increased by 219, but establishments have increased by 646.
    Sir A. Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for War whether the grant of commissions from the ranks depends upon the number of qualified candidates available or upon the number of vacancies in the military colleges or upon a fixed quota; and whether he is taking any steps to encourage this source of supply?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: The grant of combatant commissions from the ranks depends upon the number of qualified candidates within a fixed annual quota—at present 41. The question of reviewing the method of granting commissions from the ranks is one of the terms of reference of the Willingdon Committee.
    Sir A. Wilson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the quota has not been altered for many years past, and that fully qualified men are being put back on the ground that there is no room for them in the quota?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I am not unsympathetic towards the question, but that is not quite the fact. The quota is 41, and applications did not reach that figure.
    Sir A. Wilson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that during the last few weeks, of 12 candidates who were fully approved by commanding officers, only six were allowed entrance on the ground that there were no vacancies for the remaining six?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I was not aware of that, but as I have told my hon. Friend, this will be a subject of report by the Willingdon Committee, and I do not regard the question with any lack of sympathy.

    OFFICERS' ALLOWANCES.
    Sir A. Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the total annual saving to War Office estimates from the withdrawal of free passages for nurses for officers' children by military transports, withdrawal of allowances for officers' chargers, and other economies effected at the expense of officers during the present financial year; and whether he will await the report of the Willingdon Committee before taking further measures to effect economies at the expense of junior commissioned officers?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Free passages for nurses and governesses of officers' children were discontinued as long ago as 1933 as part of a general revision of regulations governing sea passages and travelling. This withdrawal saved Army Votes about £2,000 a year, but at the same time travelling concessions were made for all ranks, costing over £4,000 a year. These include free return passages for families to stations abroad after accompanying invalided officers to this country, or having been invalided themselves; free passages to stations abroad for the brides of officers who marry while on leave and free conveyance of an officer's furniture from his old to his new home station, after return from foreign service. The annual saving to Army Votes by the withdrawal of what are known as second forages is about £4,000. It is incorrect, however, to regard this as an economy effected at the expense of the officer; it naturally follows from the mechanisation of the Army. I am not aware of any economies made during this year or in contemplation at the expense of officers. On the other hand, I would point out that concessions in respect of rations and ration allowances amounting to some £60,000 annually were made to

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    officers from the beginning of the present financial year.
    Sir A. Wilson: Am I to understand from my right hon. Friend that junior officers will get £60,000 in ration allowances?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: That is the figure which I gave.
    Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the withdrawal of the second forage allowance will discourage officers from joining, and that in the French Cavalry, although it is mechanised, they are still giving officers the forage allowance?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: With regard to the second forage allowance, it was given to officers when they had a horse of their own, in addition to the charger to which they were entitled.

  SCOTLAND.

    RENT ADVISORY COMMITTEES.
    Mr. Garro Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) whether he will ascertain the number of local authorities in Scotland who have set up rent advisory committees to publish information for the assistance of tenants; and how many such authorities have exercised the powers conferred upon them by Section 10 of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions (Amendment) Act, 1933;
    (2) whether, having regard to the small number of local authorities in Scotland who have set up rent advisory committees, he will draw their attention to the powers conferred upon them by the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Act, 1933?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Elliot): As the whole question of rent restriction will have to be considered in the light of the report of the Interdepartmental Committee—which will be laid before Parliament at an early date—I do not think that any action such as the hon. Member suggests could appropriately be taken at present.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that confusion and uncertainty are felt by innumerable poor people in industrial areas in regard to increases of rents which are permissible, and having regard to the enormous benefit which has
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    been conferred on these people by those local authorities who have set up these committees, would it not be well for him to represent to the local authorities that they should follow that example?
    Mr. Elliot: I think that action would be more appropriate in connection with the forthcoming legislation which will be necessary to replace the Rent Restriction Act.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is already power to set up rent advisory committees which Parliament conferred upon these authorities after prolonged debate, and if those powers are not to be rendered nugatory, why will the right hon. Gentleman not remind local authorities that they should take that step?
    Mr. Elliot: I think the whole question of rent restriction will have to be reviewed in the light of the report.

    HOUSING.
    Mr. Stephenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses in the Haghill housing scheme, Glasgow, which are slum-clearance houses, the number of intermediate houses in this scheme, and the rents, inclusive of rates, being paid by the tenants for such houses of both types?
    Mr. Elliot: As the answer involves a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Stephen: In view of the increased cost of living, will the right hon. Gentleman bring to the notice of local authorities the need for a reduction?
    Following is the answer:

    Haghill Housing Scheme—Glasgow.

    A. Slum Clearance Houses.

    Number of Houses.

    2 apts.

    3 apts.

    4 apts.

    5 apts.

    Total.

    192

    216

    12

    6

    426

    Rentals (including occupiers' rates) per calendar month.

    2 apts.

    3 apts.

    4 apts.

    5 apts.

    30s.

    132 houses at 35s.

    38s.

    42s. 6d.

    84 houses at 36s.

    B. Intermediate Houses.

    Number of Houses.

    3 apts.

    4 apts.

    Total.

    558

    192

    750

    Rentals (including occupiers' rates) per calendar month.

    3 apts.

    4 apts.

    43s.

    4d.

    49s.

    10d.

    Mr. Westwoodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of completed houses allocated to the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, for the half-years ended 15th May, 1934, 1935, 1936, and 1937, respectively?
    Mr. Elliot: The numbers of completed houses allocated to the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, for the half-years in question were 3,676, 6,362, 6,838 and 4,205, respectively.
    Mr. Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Scottish Housing Association for the Special Areas has yet arrived at a decision as to when, where, and on what scale building operations should be commenced?
    Mr. Elliot: Subject to the necessary agreement being entered into with the county council, the association have decided to commence operations in Lanarkshire at Tannochside, Carluke and Holy-town. The number of houses involved is approximately 600.
    Mr. T. Johnston: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Under-Secretary of State has just made a public statement that many contracts now being entered into will not be started for 18 months in Scotland, and how, if that be the case, does the committee expect to get building operations started promptly?
    Mr. Elliot: It is on that account that we are forced to proceed by means of this committee which is operating by alternative methods.
    Mr. Johnston: Will the right hon. Gentleman verify the statement that many contracts now being entered into cannot be started for 18 months?
    Mr. Elliot: At the present rate of some 17,000 houses per annum, I think the 34,000 houses under contract will inevitably lead to very long delay, possibly 18 months or over, in the completion of these houses?
    Mr. Johnston: That does not apply to England?
    Mr. Elliot: It does not apply to England.

    POOR LAW RELIEF.
    Mr. Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total annual expenditure on Poor Law relief in Scotland
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    for the years ended May, 1931, and 1937, respectively?
    Mr. Elliot: I regret that information as to the expenditure on poor relief in Scotland for the year to 15th May, 1937, is not yet available. With the hon. Member's permission, however, I shall circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement of the expenditure for the years ended 15th May, 1931, and 15th May, 1936.
    Mr. Davidson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the Glasgow "Forward" there is a report by the ex-Treasurer of Glasgow indicating the figures for Glasgow for the dates for which I have asked the information, and if the ex-Treasurer of Glasgow is able to get the figures, why cannot the right hon. Gentleman give them to the House?
    Mr. Elliot: The figures for the separate local authorities are generally available before the figures for Scotland as a whole.
    Mr. H. G. Williams: Why are the statistics of expenditure of local authorities in Scotland published so much later than the corresponding figures for this country?
    Following is the statement:
    Expenditure on relief to the sane poor in Scotland for the years ended 15th May, 1931 and 15th May, 1936.

    —

    Able-bodied poor.

    Ordinary poor.

    Total.

    1931.

    £

    £

    £

    Outdoor

    631,784

    2,012,213

    2,643,997

    Indoor

    21,323

    776,482

    797,805

    653,107

    2,788,695

    3,441,802

    1936.

    Outdoor

    2,478,608

    3,786,611

    6,265,219

    Indoor

    35,731

    629,853

    665,584

    2,514,339

    4,416,464

    6,930,803*

    *The grant to local authorities in Scotland under the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Act, 1934, which falls to be set off against the poor law expenditure for 1936, amounted to £1,632,507.

    AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
    Mr. J. J. Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether a special department is to be set up in

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    Scotland for the acceptance, modification, or rejection of air-raid precautions schemes submitted by Scottish local authorities?
    Mr. Elliot: The Central Department advising the Secretary of State for Scotland as well as the Secretary of State for the Home Department in relation to air-raid precautions will be the Air-Raid Precautions Department, which will have regional inspectors stationed in Scotland, England and Wales.

    HERRING INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the protests from the Stornoway Town Council against the operation of the Herring Industry Board's rule regarding the time-limit for kippering herring; whether he is aware that the rule is a serious handicap on the West Coast in winter; and what action he proposes to take to end this grievance?
    Mr. Elliot: I have received representations from the Town Council of Stornoway against the rule mentioned in the question. The making of such a rule by the Herring Industry Board is not subject to Ministerial approval, and I have no power to interfere with the Board's discretion in the matter. I have, however, communicated the representations to the Board who inform me that after reviewing the matter, they regard the general advantage to be secured by the rule in improving the quality of kippers as outweighing any disadvantage which may be involved in particular cases. As regards the effect upon Stornoway, the Board point out that the quantities of herring sent from that port to the mainland for kippering have been inconsiderable.
    Mr. Macquisten: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Herring Board fix the time for kippering almost immediately after the herring are landed instead of fixing it for a time after they are caught, with the result that Norwegian herring caught a fortnight before compete with herring caught by local people a day or two before?
    Mr. Davidson: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the inability of the Herring Board properly to function is due to the fact that he has not the power to interfere with its powers of discretion,
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    and will his Department undertake to ascertain what powers it has with regard to the Board?
    Mr. Elliot: That is a very flattering assumption of the superiority that I would show over the Herring Board, and I am sure that it would not be borne out in practice.
    Mr. Macquisten: Why should not the Herring Board be composed of traders?

    JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (PROVOSTS).
    Mr. Johnstonasked the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that the provosts of small burghs in Scotland are no longer justices of the peace ex officio, and that there are small burghs, such as Kilsyth, where the provost is over 65 years of age and is thereby ineligible under the present practice for nomination by the county advisory committee as a justice of the peace; and whether, as these two considerations prevent the chief magistrate from being appointed as a justice of the peace, he will take steps to have the age limit for the appointment of justices modified in such special circumstances?
    Mr. Elliot: I am aware that the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929, repealed the provision of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, under which the Provosts of certain police burghs were ex officio justices of the peace. I am informed by the Lord Chancellor, with whom I have been in communication, that there is no absolute rule as to the age over which persons will not be appointed to the Commission of the Peace, and that it is open to advisory committees to recommend any provost who is in all respects eligible for the office. The Lord Chancellor does not, however, regard it as generally advisable in the public interest that persons should commence their duties as justices at an advanced age.
    Mr. Johnston: In the event of the local advisory committee not making a recommendation in such special circumstances as there are in this case, has the local town council the right to approach the Lord Chancellor as representing His Majesty?
    Mr. Elliot: I should not like to say without notice.

    TELEGRAPH AND AIR-MAIL FACILITIES (ORKNEYS).
    Major Neven-Spenceasked the Postmaster-General the reason for the delay in completing the telegraph connection between the Islands of Papa Westray and Westray, Orkney?
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Sir Walter Womersley): A cable has been laid between Westray and Papa Westray, but some further construction work is necessary before telegraph communication can be established between the two islands. It is hoped to complete this in about three months.
    Major Neven-Spenceasked the Postmaster-General when the air-mail service to the North Isles of Orkney is due to begin?
    Sir W. Womersley: No decision has yet been reached as to the institution of such a service.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    MINERAL RIGHTS DUTY AND ROYALTIES WELFARE LEVY.
    Dr. Leechasked the Secretary for Mines the total amount paid by the present royalty owners in Mineral Rights Duty and Welfare Fund Levy?
    The Secretary for Mines (Captain Crookshank): The total receipts from Mineral Rights Duty and Royalties Welfare Levy from their commencement in 1910 and 1927 respectively up to 31st March last, amounted to £7,032,980 and £2,067,751.

    SHOT-FIRING.
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Secretary for Mines the number of collieries that are substituting for shot-firing other methods of getting down coal; and what progress is being made in eliminating shot-firing?
    Captain Crookshank: Such devices as Cardox and Hydrox and the hydraulic burster are in general use at some 20 collieries, and are being tried out at a number of others. The use of pneumatic picks is also progressing, the number in use for coal getting having risen from 934 in 1928, at 78 mines, to 6,464 in 1936 at 234 mines, and the quantity of coal so mined, from little more than 1,000,000 tons to 11,750,000 tons. It
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    has been found possible to eliminate shot-firing altogether at some mines, and the mines inspectors are giving this movement every encouragement.

    CARBONISATION WORKS.
    Mr. Palingasked the Secretary for Mines what proportion of Britain's annual output of coal is treated in by-product works, and the number of tons this proportion represents?
    Captain Crookshank: The quantity of coal carbonised in 1936 at by-product coke-ovens, gas works and low-temperature carbonisation plants was 39,000,000 tons, representing 17 per cent. of the total output of coal in that year.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  Mr. Shortasked the Minister of Pensions how many applications for pensions have been received and dealt with under the special arrangements for dealing with applications made more than seven years after the termination of the War; and how many have been granted?
  The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Ramsbotham): During the year ended 31st October last, 2,874 applications, nearly half of which were made by existing or former pensioners, were received for fresh disabilities claimed to be due to war service. Of these 490 were established and accepted for pension or treatment.
  Mr. Smedley Crookeasked the Minister of Pensions what progress he has made in carrying out his undertaking that he would take steps to collaborate with the Ministry of Health in dealing with the hardship of cases where widows of disabled ex-service men failed to obtain widows' pensions under the Royal Warrant because their husbands did not die from the disability for which the pension was granted, and subsequently were refused widows' pensions under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Pensions Act because their husbands, owing to war disability, were not in insurable occupations?
  Mr. Ramsbotham: I have, in concert with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, instituted arrangements between my Department and the Ministry of Health which ensures that all possible

  195
  assistance obtainable from the information in the possession of the Ministry is given to widows of disabled ex-service men who may have a title to pension under the contributory pensions scheme. These arrangements are working satisfactorily.
  Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will recommend a change in the statutory regulations to permit of the commutation of life disability pensions of less than 16s. per week, such commutation in the case of small pensions being more urgent and desirable than is the case with pensions of 16s. upwards?
  Mr. Ramsbotham: I am satisfied from experience that the requirements of the present statutory regulations, which secure uniformity of practice between the Ministry of Pensions and the Service Departments, preserve to the pensioner the minimum pension which should be left uncommuted.
  Mr. Kirby: Is the Minister aware that many of these men who are receiving small pensions are included in the class known as "prematurely aged" and that they have to go to the Public Assistance Committee; and will he reconsider his answer?
  Mr. Ramsbotham: Experience shows that it is seldom that the commutation of the pension works out to the advantage of the pensioner.
  Mr. Smedley Crookeasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will consider the advisability of obtaining powers to revise the Royal Warrant in order to meet the cases of distress of ex-service men who originally had a disability pension, which was afterwards withdrawn, who now, suffering from their War disability, apply at employment exchanges for suitable work, are sent to be medically examined and are found incapable of work, are subsequently refused unemployment benefit, not being fit men, and have to obtain relief from the Public Assistance Board?
  Mr. Ramsbotham: The basic principle of compensation for War disablement, approved by the House, is the award of like pension or grant for all disablements of like degree. I could not, consistently with this principle, agree to
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  modify the pension in individual cases to meet difficulties in obtaining employment in this or that particular occupation. It is not the practice, as my hon. Friend suggests, for employment exchanges to send men for medical examinations. Where ill-health is the cause of a man's inability to obtain employment, the case would usually be dealt with, so far as necessary, either by the social services under the control of the Ministry of Health or by my Department, according to circumstances.
  Mr. Smedley Crooke: If I bring a case before my hon. Friend, will he make inquiries?
  Mr. Ramsbotham: Certainly, I am always glad to have any case which the hon. Member cares to bring before me.
  Mr. Stephen: Inasmuch as the principle is causing some hardship, does not the hon. Gentleman think the time has come when there ought to be a revision of it?
  Mr. Ramsbotham: The House of Commons considered the principle in 1917 and substituted another principle which was a sound one.

  AFFORESTATION.

    TENANCIES, NORTH TYNE AND REDESDALE AREAS.
    Colonel Clifton Brownasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, how many tenants on their properties in the North Tyne and Redesdale areas hold land on 364-day tenancies; and whether these tenancies will all be changed to annual or long terms in the near future?
    Colonel Sir George Courthope (Forestry Commissioner): Seventeen tenants on the Forestry Commissioners' properties in the North Tyne and Redesdale areas hold land on 364-day tenancies and no change in these tenancies is contemplated.
    Colonel Brown: Is it not the case that these 364-day tenancies are given to avoid giving farmers compensation for disturbance, and is that a good example of the Government as landlord?
    Sir G. Courthope: My hon. and gallant Friend is misinformed. Of the 17 tenancies I mentioned in the first answer, nine have forest workers' holdings and the others have temporary grazing tenancies on farms which are about to be planted.

    ROMAN WALL AREA.
    Colonel Brownasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, what is the shortest distance between the Roman Wall and any point of their existing properties in Northumberland or Cumberland; whether any land in the vicinity of the Roman Wall has been surveyed by their officials; and whether they are prepared to guarantee that no land which is within three miles of, and is visible from, the Roman Wall will be planted?
    Sir G. Courthope: The shortest distance between the Roman Wall and the Forestry Commissioners' Warke Forest is approximately one mile. Land in the vicinity of the Wall has been surveyed by their officials. The Commissioners are not prepared to guarantee as suggested, but great care will be paid to the amenities in any planting in the vicinity of the Wall.
    Colonel Brown: Did the Commission judge for themselves the amenities of the Roman Wall?
    Sir G. Courthope: All such matters are considered by a Joint Committee of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and of the Commissioners.

    KIELDEK VILLAGE SETTLEMENT.
    Colonel Brownasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, whether he can give a full statement explaining the long delay in the construction of the Kielder village settlement, giving the date of commencement and the date by which it is now hoped that the houses will be occupied?
    Sir G. Courthope: Owing to delay on the part of the builder of the houses at Kielder the Forestry Commissioners have terminated the contract dated 30th July, 1936. The matter is under consideration by the parties' legal advisers, and meanwhile it is not possible to anticipate the date by which the houses will be occupied.
    Colonel Brown: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman recollect that he told this House last July, in answer to a Supplementary Question, that many of the cottages were nearly ready and occupants had been selected but were not
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    actually in occupation. How does he relate that statement to the answer which he has just given?
    Sir G. Courthope: Both statements are strictly correct.
    Mr. Crossley: Is it not time that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hexham (Colonel Brown) and my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Rye (Sir G. Courthope) buried the hatchet?

  ECONOMIC MISSION (M. VAN ZEELAND'S REPORT).
  Mr. David Grenfellasked the Prime Minister whether he has yet received a written report from M. Van Zeeland on the result of his mission to the United States of America, particularly in regard to the conclusion of a trade agreement between the United States and this country; and whether it is proposed to publish a statement with full details of the report?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): I am not at present in a position to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 29th November to the hon. Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson), namely, that M. Van Zeeland is preparing his report, but it has not yet been received. As regard the second part of the question, I shall be ready to consider the question of a public statement when the report has been received.
  Mr. Grenfell: Are we to assume from the Prime Minister's statement that he is expecting the report and that a statement will be made before long?
  The Prime Minister: I cannot say when the report will be received, but I have no reason to think that it will be long delayed.
  Sir Archibald Sinclair: The point is that the Prime Minister will let the House know and that the report will be made public?
  The Prime Minister: That is rather a different question. I was asked whether I would make a public statement. I said I would consider the question when the report was received. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the question of the publication of the report is not a matter for me to decide alone. It

  199
  is a matter also for M. Van Zeeland and the French Government. Perhaps I may add that I have no reason to suppose that either of them will object to the publication of the report.

  DEFENCE SERVICES.

    HIGH COMMANDS.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether he intends to extend to the Navy and the Royal Air Force the War Office policy of reducing the age of those holding high command; and whether in future health and physical fitness will be regarded as an essential qualification for high command in all the three Defence Services?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. and gallant Member may rest assured that when appointments to the high command in the Defence Services are being considered, my right hon. Friends the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for Air will continue to give full weight to all relevant considerations, including the age, health and physical fitness of the officers concerned.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is the case that the First Sea Lord is 12 years older than the youngest member of his Board, and 14 years older than the average age of the members of the Air Council; and is it not desirable that there should be an approximation of average ages between the Air Council, the Army Council and the Board of Admiralty?
    Mr. Garro Jones: May I ask by what methods the right hon. Gentleman gives his consideration to the health of officers whom it is proposed to promote to the higher command? Is there any medical examination of any shape or kind, or does he just have a look at them?
    The Prime Minister: That question might be addressed to the head of the Department responsible.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: Is not the First Sea Lord to whom the hon. and gallant Member referred a highly efficient officer?
    Mr. H. G. Williams: On a point of Order. In questions which appear on the Order Paper ought not the Navy to be properly described as the Royal Navy?
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: May I have a reply to my supplementary question, as it is very important that there should be a similarity of mental outlook in matters affecting the co-ordination of Defence?

    MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the number of cases of wives of men serving in the Navy and Army who are compelled to apply for public assistance, he will consult with the heads of the three Defence Services, with a view to the qualifying age for marriage allowance being lowered?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut. - Colonel Colville): Questions affecting the conditions of service of men of His Majesty's Forces primarily concern the Ministers in charge of the respective Defence Departments.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is not the Minister aware that Members in many parts of the House consider that these cases are very disturbing and distressing and that they seriously affect the prestige of the Services concerned, and will he not reconsider his answer and get into touch with the heads of these Services?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: It is not a question of reconsidering my reply, which I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman did not hear, and which was that this is primarily a question for the Ministers in charge of the Defence Departments.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that some public assistance committees are refusing relief to the wives of serving men, and can he use his influence to induce those public assistance committees to afford an adequate measure of relief in such cases?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: That is a different question.
    Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Is the Minister aware that one of these questions was addressed to a Defence Service Minister, who replied that he was bound by Treasury regulations in the matter, and is that not the reason why it cannot be reconsidered?

  FOREIGN LOANS (BRITISH INVESTORS).
  Sir Nicholas Grattan-Doyleasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that Germany has derived for the current year a net free sterling surplus of not less than £5,000,000 in her commercial and financial relations with the United Kingdom; and will he therefore, out of that surplus, restore the defaulted sinking fund on the British holdings of German International (Young) 5½ per cent. Loan of 1930, which was taken up in the faith of the terms contained in the Treasury White Paper, as the subscribers have now lost half their capital owing to the default on the contractual sinking fund?
  Sir J. Simon: I do not know how my hon. Friend arrives at the figure given in the first part of the question, but under the provisions of the Anglo-German Payments Agreement of 1st November, 1934, a balance of free sterling remains at the disposal of the German Government. As regards the second part, full interest is being paid under Article 7 of that Agreement on bonds in British ownership of the German International Loan of 1930; should the question be raised of amending the Agreement so as to provide for capital repayments, there would no doubt be other claimants to a share of the surplus besides the bondholders of the Young Loan. The question is, therefore, a complicated one, but I should, of course, welcome any action which the German Government could take towards restoring the contractual payments to British creditors.
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give the figures, as at the middle of 1937, of the amount of the nominal £39,000,000 of loans offered to British investors on the recommendation of the League of Nations which are in whole or partial default, and the names of the British subjects among the experts who advised the issue of these loans; and whether he will take into consideration the British capital lost in foreign loans floated on the advice of the financial experts of the League before raising the embargo on foreign lending?
  Sir J. Simon: Of the League loans issued in London, about £20,500,000 nominal was at the middle of 1937 either in receipt of full service or had been paid
  202
  off; on about £8,750,000, reduced service payments were being made under agreements reached with representatives of the bondholders; on about £10,250,000 partial payments had been offered by the debtor Government, but the offer had not been accepted by the bondholders' representatives. The responsibility for recommending the issue of these loans rests upon the League Council as a whole. As regards the last paragraph of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on 30th November to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne, North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle).
  Mr. De la Bère: In view of the fact that the League Council advised investors in Great Britain to put their money into these loans, cannot some powers of compulsory exchange clearing be instituted in order to help the investors of this country?
  Sir Arthur Salter: As one of those apparently referred to in the question, and as one who certainly has no desire to evade any responsibility, may I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is not the case that the average return to investors in League loans up to date and over an average period of about 12 years has exceeded 6 per cent., and whether this return does not compare favourably with the record not only of foreign investments in general, but of many classes of British investments, to say nothing of the 2½ or 3½ per cent. loans which the hon. Member opposite so frequently advocates?

  AUSTRALIAN LOANS.
  Sir N. Grattan-Doyleasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that 60 to 80 per cent. of the Australian conversion loan offered in London at the end of November was left with the underwriters; and will he represent to the Australian authorities that, until a considerable proportion of the loans issued here has been repatriated to Australia, no issues of new or conversions of old Australian loans will be permitted to be ranked upon the trustee list?
  Sir J. Simon: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but I would remind my hon. Friend that the immediate result of any such operation is to a great extent dependent upon

  203
  market conditions at the tune of issue. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.

  INCOME TAX (ROYALTY OWNERS).
  Dr. Leechasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of Income Tax paid by the present royalty owners?
  Sir J. Simon: It is not possible to earmark any part of the produce of the Income Tax (including Sur-tax) contributed in respect of this particular source of income.

  AIR-RAID SHELTERS (ASSESSMENTS).
  Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take early legislative steps to empower the local assessment committee for rates and the local bodies of general commissioners of Income Tax to disallow any increase of their assessment by the local authority or under Schedule A to those private persons who put up-gas-proof or bomb-proof shelters which may have involved considerable capital expenditure?
  Sir J. Simon: The suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend would involve great complications. Where the capital outlay involves no increase in annual value, the assessment would be unaffected. But if an owner increases the letting value of his property by such outlay, the ordinary rules of assessment would apply.

  EXCHANGE EQUALISATION ACCOUNT.
  Brigadier-General Spearsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will be able to make a statement as to the position of the Exchange Equalisation Account as at 30th September last before the House rises for the Christmas Recess?
  Sir J. Simon: My hon. and gallant Friend will remember that what I promised the House was a half-yearly publication made three months in arrear of the position as at 31st March and 30th September. I should propose, therefore, that the approaching statement should be published on 31st December.

  CIVIL SERVICE.

    DEPENDANTS (BENEVOLENT FUNDS).
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what central or Departmental funds are in existence in order to help to provide educational and/or other maintenance facilities for the children of deceased Civil servants; and will he give details of such facilities?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: Various benevolent or provident funds are in operation in the Civil Service, some of which provide, amongst other benefits, educational and maintenance facilities for the children of deceased Civil servants. Such funds are maintained from non-official sources, for example, voluntary contributions from serving and retired officers. They are entirely benevolent in character and their administration is not under the official control of the Departments in which they operate. I am not, therefore, in a position to give details of the facilities they offer. Examples of such funds are:

    The Civil Service Benevolent Fund.

    The Post Office Clerks Benevolent Fund.

    The Post Office Relief Fund.

    The Customs and Excise Orphans', Widows' and War Memorial Fund.

    The Ministry of Labour Benevolent Fund.

    The Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise Provident Fund.

    Civil Service Widows' and Orphans' Fund.

    SIR GEORGE ROBERTSON.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that Sir George Stuart Robertson, the late Industrial Commissioner, has resigned his position and has been granted a pension of £875 per annum, he will state why Sir George Robertson had to obtain the consent of the Government before accepting the position of director of the Prudential Assurance Company?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: I am sending to the hon. Member a copy of the Memorandum on the subject of the acceptance of business appointments by officers of the Crown Services (Command Paper 5517) issued in July last which sets out the position in this matter.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Prudential Assurance Company will be in a privileged position; that they will be able to obtain inside information and thus have an advantage over any other society or company? Will he give an assurance that the new Industrial Commissioner will not be permitted to accept an appointment of this or any other kind at any time, so as to ensure that he will not divulge information at his disposal?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: If the hon. Member will read the Command Paper to which I have referred, he will see that certain principles are laid down governing the acceptance of offices of this nature, and I am quite satisfied that those principles were acted upon in this case, and that the appointment was a proper one.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman understand that in the seconding of this Gentleman from the Industrial Commissioner's post to the Prudential Assurance Company—because he has obtained the consent of the Government to accept a directorship—the Prudential Assurance Company is placed in a privileged position?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: The hon. Member does not know the facts of the case. This officer was not seconded. He retired and accepted an appointment after a proper examination in terms of the memorandum to which I have referred had been made.
    Mr. T. Williams: Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman deprecate persons leaving the State service and accepting a position of this kind?
    Lieut.-Colonel Colville: I think both hon. Members should read the Memorandum to which I have referred, and which goes very fully into this matter. I will send the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) a copy of it, too.
    Mr. Grenfell: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider publishing, in addition to the Memorandum, a statement giving the number of people who obtained such appointments in the last 10 or 12 years, and will he consider the advisability of informing civil servants that their duty is to the Government, and that they are to remain at their national
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    posts and not take advantage of anything they may learn in the course of their service to the nation?
    Mr. Gallacher: Would the Minister not consider bringing in the necessary legislation to suspend the operation of pensions for these civil servants?
    Mr. De la Bère: Would it be proper to ask what the British Broadcasting Corporation did on 7th May?

  AGRICULTURE.

    POULTRY INDUSTRY.
    Sir Adrian Baillieasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has received the reports of the egg-marketing scheme from the National Farmers' Union and the National Poultry Council; and what action he is proposing to take in this connection?
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. W. S. Morrison): I have received the provisional proposals to which my hon. Friend refers, and am giving them my careful consideration.
    Sir A. Baillieasked the Minister of Agriculture the progress made by the Departmental Committee investigating poultry mortality; and what is the estimated loss of poultry caused by disease in this country in the latest 12 months for which figures are available?
    Mr. Morrison: I understand that the Committee hopes to be able to present its report early next year. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 17th November to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Sir P. Hurd).
    Sir A. Baillieasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps are being taken at the present time to provide facilities for British poultry farmers to place a reasonable proportion of their eggs in cold storage during those periods of the year when there is an excessive supply; and whether he will take steps to assist the financing of an organisation to provide such cold storage accommodation in suitable centres throughout the country?
    Mr. Morrison: The provision of facilities for the cold storage of home-produced eggs is primarily a matter for the industry itself. In the event of a producers' board being set up to regulate egg marketing, the question whether additional cold stor-

    207
    age accommodation will be required will depend on the powers and policy of that organisation. As I have indicated to my hon. Friend in reply to an earlier question, proposals for the improved marketing of home-produced eggs have now been submitted by the industry and are at present under consideration.

    GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY.
    Colonel Sir Edward Ruggles-Brise(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries the detailed arrangements for giving effect to the price insurance plan for milk used for butter and cheese outlined in the White Paper on milk policy last July, and whether the Government have taken into account the changed level of prices and costs?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: Yes, Sir. Paragraph 7 of the White Paper indicated the general outline of a price insurance plan under which Exchequer assistance would be payable, within the limit of unspecified standard gallonages, in respect of milk used in factories for butter and cheese and milk made into cheese on farms, in the event of the average market prices of imported butter and cheese falling, over a period, below standard prices of 100s. and 56s. per cwt. respectively.
    In the legislation to give effect to the White Paper policy, the Government will propose that the standard gallonages for milk used in Great Britain for butter and cheese should be 125,000,000 gallons per annum in each case. The Government have also reviewed the figures to be fixed for the proposed standard prices. They have taken into account the factors referred to in my hon. and gallant Friend's question. They also consider that it would be desirable to take some account of the seasonal variation in the quantities of milk available and in the costs of production, and the forthcoming legislation will provide that the price levels at which Exchequer assistance should begin to operate should be 112s. in summer and 120s. in winter per cwt. of butter, and 62s. 6d. in summer and 67s. 6d. in winter per cwt. of cheese. At present the average prices of imported butter and cheese are 133s. and 70s. 6d. per cwt. respectively. It is also proposed to provide for an independent review of both standard prices and standard gallonages at three-yearly intervals.
    Mr. T. Williams: In the new calculation which the Government appear to have made, have they reached any conclusion with regard to the variation in the quantity of milk available for manufacturing purposes; and will the Government guarantee vary in accordance with the number of millions of gallons of milk made available for the manufacture of butter or cheese?
    Mr. Morrison: The Government guarantee is based upon a standard gallonage of 125,000,000 gallons for milk made into butter, and 125,000,000 gallons for milk made into cheese. That is the standard gallonage, and the whole price insurance plan is based upon that gallonage. As I said in the last part of my answer, the standard gallonage will be subject to a three-yearly review in the light of the circumstances.
    Mr. Williams: Do I understand that the gallonage of 125,000,000 means that, once the quantity exceeds 125,000,000 gallons, whether for butter or for cheese, the price insurance plan will operate; and that, once the quantity available for manufacture falls below 125,000,000 gallons, the Government guarantee will cease?
    Mr. Morrison: No, Sir; all that it means is that, if the standard gallonage is exceeded, the amount of Exchequer assistance per gallon will be pro tanto reduced. It is similar to the operation of the Wheat Act, where the standard amount of wheat guarantees the price. If the amount of wheat exceeds that, the amount of the guarantee is diluted in proportion.
    Mr. Alexander: May we regard the procedure to-day with regard to this announcement as a precedent, so that Members of the Opposition can get similar information if they put down a Private Notice question?
    Mr. Speaker: I am not quite clear what the right hon. Gentleman means. Perhaps he will explain.
    Mr. Alexander: I have always understood that in Private Notice questions, before they can be passed by the Chair, there must be a note of urgency.
    Mr. Speaker: That is the case in this particular instance. I have satisfied myself that this was the only opportunity the right hon. Gentleman had of stating his policy to the House.
    Mr. Arthur Greenwood: Will the Secretary of State for War follow the same precedent?
    Mr. Speaker: He did not make any application to me to make a statement.
    Mr. Leach: Will this new policy involve an increase in the expenditure of public money?
    Mr. Morrison: No, Sir; that depends upon the course of butter and cheese prices. This is a price insurance plan, and the liability of the Exchequer is entirely contingent upon the prices of imported butter and cheese falling below the level specified in my answer.
    Mr. Alexander: If I may return to the point of procedure, is it not a fact, with regard to the announcement of an important policy of this kind, that the Government have at their disposal the whole Parliamentary time of the day, and that, if they wished to make an announcement of policy of this kind, which is not urgent, it could have been taken at any time that the Government liked to make the announcement, so that we might have an opportunity of debating it?
    Mr. De la Bère: Where is our wandering boy to-night?
    Mr. Bellenger: On a point of Order. Have you any method, Mr. Speaker, of stopping such irrelevant remarks, which prevent a serious answer being given to a serious question?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must recollect that I cannot stop a remark after it is made.
    Mr. Bellenger: If you cannot prevent it after the remark has been made, can you take steps to prevent similar remarks from being made in the future?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not know when such a remark is going to be made.
    Mr. Alexander: When the irrelevant remark was made from the other side of the House, I was hoping to get an answer from you, Sir, to my question as to procedure.
    Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman asked me a question which it would be more suitable to put to the Leader of the House. I cannot control the business of the House.
    Mr. Wedgwood Benn: May I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that in deciding whether this matter should be raised in such a form by Members of the Opposition asking questions and making criticisms, account should be taken of the fact that the Government themselves have it in their power to provide time at any period during the Session?
    Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman asks me a question about what is the common practice of the House. It is a common practice in this House, when a statement of policy is to be made, to allow a question to be put to the Minister and the Minister to make a reply. If the right hon. Gentleman asks me whether the Opposition may do the same, my answer is that of course they can.
    Mr. Alexander: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, if that procedure is likely to be pursued again, it would not be courtesy to supply the Opposition with a copy of the answer?
    The Prime Minister: I am not of opinion that in this case there was any discourtesy to the Opposition in not supplying them with a copy of the answer. The question which was put to my right hon. Friend, and which he has answered, did not raise any new point of policy, but merely filled in some details of the policy which has already been set out in the White Paper.
    Mr. T. Williams: This is not the first, but perhaps the fifth or sixth time that a similar statement has been made just on the eve of a Parliamentary Adjournment, when the Opposition have had little or no time to grasp the significance of the statement. When such a statement is made as that which the right hon. Gentleman has made to-day, we have obviously no opportunity of putting relevant questions.
    Sir A. Sinclair: Is not the short point this, that when a Private Notice question is asked by arrangement in order to enable the Government to make a statement of policy, it would be a good plan to let the Leaders of the Opposition parties know?
    Mr. Sandys: Is there any reason why the Opposition should be exceptionally favoured in matters of this kind?
    Mr. W. Roberts: Arising out of the original answer, I would like, in view of the very complicated nature of that answer, to ask the right hon. Gentleman a simple question: What, in fact, will the arrangement which the right hon. Gentleman has now made mean in value to the Milk Board per gallon of milk? What will be the value of each gallon of milk sold by the Board, taking into consideration the price obtained for it and the subsidy?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: In my amplification of the White Paper policy, I have made it clear that the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question cannot be immediately given. The actual return to the pool depends upon a number of factors, including, in particular, the sort of bargain that the Board are able to drive with the manufacturers of milk. As regards the calculation of the additional advantage in the event of the guarantee coming into operation, that will depend upon the particular formula used for converting the price of imported butter and cheese into milk, and that is a matter which is under discussion at the present moment with the Milk Board.
    Mr. Roberts: Surely, under this price insurance scheme, as it has been called, there must be some minimum price which will be guaranteed? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any minimum figure below which the value cannot fall?
    Mr. Morrison: As I have said, the price of manufactured milk depends in the first place upon the price which the Milk Board is able to exact from the manufacturers. Therefore, the minimum price will be affected by that also. Another factor of uncertainty which is not yet clear is the precise formula to be used for converting the price of imported cheese and butter into milk, and that, as I have said, is a matter which at present is under discussion. I think that, when the Bill comes to be printed and placed before the House, the hon. Gentleman will be in a position to make a more accurate calculation as to the answer which he requires.
    Mr. Greenwood: In view of the obvious difficulty of the problem, will the Government make arrangements for a discussion in the House?
    The Prime Minister: I would point out that the arrangements which my right hon. Friend has stated to the House cannot be put into operation without legislation. Therefore, when the Bill is introduced, there will be ample opportunity to discuss the matter.
    Mr. Stephen: Arising out of that answer, can the Minister say whether the Financial Resolution will be introduced before the Christmas Recess?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: I cannot say that.
    Mr. Maxton: Then where was the need for the urgency of the statement?
    Mr. Morrison: The fact is that the milk industry itself is extremely anxious as to the position, having regard to its future. These contracts have to be negotiated a long distance in advance, and it is desirable, in the interests of the industry and of all concerned in it, that as early information as possible should be given to them. I have answered this question so as to give the House the first information before I give this amplified information to hon. Members or to deputations. I have informed the House first.
    Mr. Stephen: Does that mean that these people are to enter into contracts based upon the assumption that the House will accept this statement and pass the Financial Resolution, without the consent of the House having first been got to the Financial Resolution?
    Mr. Morrison: No. No contract will be entered into in advance of legislation being passed. But at the same time there are many preliminary matters which will have to be discussed, and this is one of them. Of course, no board would be so rash as to enter into any contract on the basis of a statement of this kind before Parliament has given its consent to the principles involved.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Greenwood: Will the Prime Minister state what business he proposes to take to-night, in the event of the Eleven o'Clock Rule being suspended?
The Prime Minister: The first four Orders on the Paper. The Air-Raid Precautions Bill has already been considered

213
in Committee, and I hope it will be possible to conclude this Bill before dinner time. Then we shall take the Committee stage of the Blind Persons Bill; and Orders No. 3 and 4 will not, I think, occupy very long. I hope that this business can be obtained without asking the House to sit very late.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 263; Noes, 123.

Division No. 41.]

AYES.

[4.3 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Denville, Alfred

Leigh, Sir J.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Dodd, J. S.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Albery, Sir Irving

Doland, G. F.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

Donner, P. W.

Levy, T.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Dugdale, Captain T. L.

Liddall, W. S.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Duggan, H. J.

Lindsay, K. M.

Assheton, R.

Dunglass, Lord

Lipson, D. L.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Eastwood, J. F.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Lloyd, G. W.

Atholl, Duchess of

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W E

Loftus, P. C.

Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

Ellis, Sir G.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Elmley, Viscount

M'Connell, Sir J.

Balniel, Lord

Emery, J. F.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Emrys Evans, P. V.

McKie, J. H.

Beit, Sir A. L.

Errington, E.

Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

Bennett, Sir E. N.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Macquisten, F. A.

Bernays, R. H.

Evans, Capt. A. (Cardin, S.)

Magnay, T.

Birchall, Sir J. D.

Fildes, Sir H.

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Findlay, Sir E.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Blaker, Sir R.

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Bossom, A. C.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Boulton, W. W.

Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittarl

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Boyce, H. Leslie

Gluckstein, L. H.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Goldie, N. B.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Moreing, A. C.

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Bull, B. B.

Grimston, R. V.

Nall, Sir J.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

Burghley, Lord

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

Hambro, A. V.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Burton, Col. H. W.

Hannah, I. C.

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Butler, R. A.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. A.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Harbord, A.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Harvey, Sir G.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Carver, Major W. H.

Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

Patrick, C. M.

Cary, R. A.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Peat, C. U.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Peters, Dr. S. J.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Petherick, M.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

Pilkington, R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Plugge, Capt. L. F.

Channon, H.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Hepworth, J.

Porritt, R. W.

Christie, J. A.

Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Ramsbotham, H.

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

Rankin, Sir R.

Clarry, Sir Reginald

Higgs, W. F.

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Conant, Captain R. J. E.

Holmes, J. S.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Hopkinson, A.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Raid, W. Allan (Derby)

Cox, H. B. Trevor

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Cranborne, Viscount

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Crooks, J. S.

Hulbert, N. J.

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Hutchinson, G. C.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Cross, R. H.

James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

Rowlands, G.

Crossley, A. C.

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Culverwell, C. T.

Keeling, E. H.

Russell, Sir Alexander

Davidson, Viscountess

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Davison, Sir W. H.

Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

Salmon, Sir I.

De Chair, S. S.

Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

Salt, E. W.

De la Bère, R.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Samuel, M. R. A.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Sandeman, Sir N. S.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Sandys, E. D.

Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

Savery, Sir Servington

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Warrender, Sir V.

Scott, Lord William

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Selley, H. R.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Simmonds, O. E.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Tate, Mavis C.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Thomas, J. P. L.

Wise, A. R.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Touche, G. C.

Withers, Sir J. J.

Smithers, Sir W.

Train, Sir J.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Somerset, T.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Wragg, H.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

Turton, R. H.

Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

Walker-Smith, Sir J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

Captain Hope and Mr. Furness.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

Price, M. P.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Hall, G. H. (Abordare)

Quibell, D. J. K.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Adamson, W. M.

Hardie, Agnes

Riley, B.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Harris, Sir P. A.

Ritson, J.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Hayday, A.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland. N.)

Banfield, J. W.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Barnes, A. J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Rothschild, J. A. de

Barr, J.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

Batey, J.

Hollins, A.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Bellenger, F. J.

Jagger, J.

Sexton, T. M.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Shinwell, E.

Bevan, A.

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Short, A.

Broad, F. A.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Simpson, F. B.

Bromfield, W.

Kelly, W. T.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

Kirby, B. V.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Buchanan, G.

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Burke, W. A.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Cassells, T.

Lathan, G.

Stephen, C.

Chater, D.

Leach, W.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Cluse, W. S.

Leonard, W.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Cove, W. G.

Leslie, J. R.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Daggar, G.

Logan, D. G.

Thorne, W.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Lunn, W.

Thurtle, E.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Macdonald, G. (Inn)

Tinker, J. J.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

McEntee, V. La T.

Walkden, A. G.

Day, H.

McGhee, H. G.

Watkins, F. C.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

MacLaren, A.

Watson, W. McL.

Ede, J. C.

MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

MacNeill, Weir, L.

Welsh, J. C.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Marshall, F.

Westwood, J.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Mathers, G.

White, H. Graham

Foot, D. M.

Maxton, J.

Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

Gallacher, W.

Messer, F.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Gardner, B. W.

Montague, F.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Garro Jones, G. M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Muff, G.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Naylor, T. E.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Grenfell, D. R.

Owen, Major G-

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Paling, W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Parker, J.

Mr. Groves and Mr. Charleton

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

BILL PRESENTED.

  POOR LAW (AMENDMENT) (No. 2) BILL,
  "to authorise the payment by Poor Law authorities of personal allowances to inmates of the age of sixty-five and over of Poor Law institutions," presented by Miss Ward; supported by Captain Cobb, Miss Cazalet, Captain Gunston, Mr. Hamilton Kerr, Dr. Leech, Mr. Magnay, Mr. Gluckstein, Lord William Scott, and Mr.
  216
  Anstruther-Gray; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 66.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Supreme Court of Judicature (Amendment) Bill, without Amendment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS BILL.
  As amended, considered.
  AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS BILL.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Duty of local authorities to assist arrangements for evacuation of civil population.)
    It shall be the duty of all local authorities charged with functions under this Act to furnish to the Secretary of State such information as may be demanded by him for the purpose of assisting the preparation by His Majesty's Government of plans for any necessary transference of the civil population in the event of hostile attack from the air.—[Sir S. Hoare.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    4.13 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Samuel Hoare): I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    Hon. Members will see that the Clause provides that all local authorities charged with functions under this Act shall
    "furnish to the Secretary of State such information as may be demanded by him for the purpose of assisting the preparation by His Majesty's Government of plans for any necessary transference of the civil population in the event of hostile attack from the air."
    Hon. Members will also see, if they glance at the Amendments in my name to Clause 1, that I propose two consequential Amendments which would make effective the objects of the new Clause. The House will remember that during the Committee Debates great attention was given to the question of evacuation. Several Members in different parts of the House were obviously anxious lest we were not giving sufficient attention to the question of evacuation, or lest, even if we were giving sufficient attention to it, we had not effective powers in the Bill to see that evacuation was included in its proper place in the schemes of the local authorities. I gave an undertaking, having noticed the obvious anxiety of many hon. Members, that I would look into the question again to see whether the powers in the Bill were watertight in this respect. I said, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) that I would see whether, apart from the question of these powers being watertight or not, it would not be wise, on general grounds, to make some allusion in the Bill to this very important question.
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    My further inquiries have gone to show, first, that the Bill is watertight, and that even without this new Clause, we could, under the regulations and under the existing Clauses of the Bill, insist on schemes of evacuation being included in the local schemes. Secondly, my investigations went to show that it would, on the whole, be wise to make specific reference to evacuation in order to remove doubts, even though those doubts were not justifiably founded, so that there could not be any uncertaintly in the minds of any of the local authorities concerned. Thirdly, it seemed to me, on further consideration, that it would be wise to make more specific a provision to which a good deal of attention was given in the Debate, namely, the provision for refugees, evacuated from one area to be introduced into another area. On that account, the proposed new Clause, first, lays upon local authorities the obligation to provide the Government with the necessary information about evacuation and, secondly, makes it clear that in their schemes they can provide for populations coming in from outside their own areas. It will be remembered that a great deal of attention was given to that point, and the longer the Debate went on the clearer it became that the problem of evacuation, if it is to be successfully dealt with, is a problem which far transcends the boundaries of this or that local authority. It has to be dealt with in bigger areas and, perhaps, in the case of London, which is the most difficult and urgent of all the cases concerned, we may find that it has to be dealt with by some central scheme. The House will, I think, agree when they consider the new Clause and the consequential Amendments that I have dealt effectively with the main point raised in the Committee Debate, and I hope I have succeeded in removing the anxieties of the hon. Members who were doubtful about the Bill in its original form.
    I can say, finally, that we have this question of evacuation constantly and vividly before our minds. We realise as fully as any hon. Members, the need for evacuation schemes. We also realise the difficulties that are inherent in any such schemes. We already have provisional plans at our disposal. We now intend to carry those plans a great step further, but a necessary condition of doing so is to have local information from the various local authorities. That information we

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    shall obtain under the new Clause. We shall see in the schemes and information sent in by the local authorities the exact scope of the problem and the application of particular measures to particular areas. We shall see what areas ought to be evacuated and where, in the event of evacuation, populations are to be transferred, and so on. We hope, as soon as the Bill becomes law, that there will be no delay in obtaining information of that kind. The central Government will then be able to deal centrally with the whole problem. Without the information which will be obtainable under this Clause, it will be difficult to be sure of getting all the data needed. Because we regard the question as very urgent and because we need such data, I hope the House will accept the new Clause. I also hope that I have succeeded in removing any anxiety which may have been in the minds of hon. Members during the Committee stage.
    4.23 p.m.
    Mr. Montague: It will be agreed, I think, that the proposed new Clause is not only an admission that the sense of the House expressed in previous Debates was right, but also an admission of the usefulness of the criticisms which have been made, from this side of the House particularly, upon the proposed machinery of evacuation. The right hon. Gentleman said that the regulations and the Bill, as it stood, without this new Clause, would have been sufficient for putting into operation, fully and effectively, the machinery of evacuation. But I think hon. Members will agree that his subsequent remarks proved the necessity for a Clause of this character, and demonstrated the fact that the Bill, in its original form, was not adequate to deal with this question. The general question of evacuation will be discussed at greater length on the Third Reading, within the limits set by the procedure and the Rules of the House, but there is one point which I wish to make at this stage, and I make it by putting a presumption to the right hon. Gentleman. The proposed new Clause reads:
    "for the purpose of assisting the preparation by His Majesty's Government of plans for any necessary transference of the civil population in the event of hostile attack from the air."
    May we presume that the Government accept full responsibility for the evacua-
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    tion plans in London and other cities, and not only responsibility for the plans in detail, but also financial responsibility, including responsibility for preliminary expenditure? That ought to be made clear. We want to know definitely whether this also is to be regarded as a sort of reserved subject. The necessity for this Clause and the words used by the right hon. Gentleman in presenting it justify the argument which has been advanced on several occasions that some centralised authority should be responsible for evacuation in general. During the Second Reading Debate the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Sandys) suggested the appointment of a director-general of air-raid precautions to take charge of an enlarged and reconstructed department. The hon. Member said:
    "There would be somebody in charge in that case who possessed sufficient authority to take decisions without delay. …. A director-general at the head of an enlarged department would be in a position to get things done."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1937; col. 79, Vol. 329.]
    What the right hon. Gentleman said in reference to the use by local authorities of the powers in the new Clause where it is a question of refugees from one place to another, points to the necessity for a sound central authority. This is not a question which can be handled by local authorities, even large authorities like the London County Council. It involves larger considerations of national policy, and of policy which affects other local authorities. For that reason the proposed Clause implies that the closest consideration should be given to the question of responsibility, and even if it is not a question of appointing a director-general, at least some specific statement should be made before the Third Reading as to the way in which the whole problem of evacuation is to be dealt with when the necessity arises. Even before the necessity arises I take it that we shall have to prepare plans. We shall have to consider plans, not only for the event of war, but for the possibility of the event of war. It is not a question, in London or anywhere else, of the complete evacuation of the whole population, any more than it is a question of the complete protection of the whole population from gas, of getting the whole population into gas-proof rooms, or making complete entrenchments, or anything of that kind. Evidently, all these things will have to be worked in together.

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    It will be a matter of high policy and of taking a wide view of the problem as a whole. Therefore, I suggest that the implications of the proposed new Clause go rather further than hon. Members have realised, and perhaps even further than the right hon. Gentleman himself has realised. In any event, although there are other things which we shall say upon the question of evacuation at the proper time, we welcome this admission by the Government that the trenchant case made, particularly by the Opposition but also by other sections of the House, with regard to evacuation, has served an exceedingly useful purpose by convincing the Government that this new Clause was needed.
    4.30 p.m.
    Captain Alan Graham: I think we must all welcome very sincerely the inclusion of this new Clause, but some of us are shocked by the admission, which is implicit in the text of the Clause, that plans have not already been made, and that the information necessary for those plans has not yet been acquired. The Home Secretary must be aware that the vulnerability of London is perhaps the weakest point in all our defences, and consequently it weakens the structure upon which our whole foreign policy rests. Of the various dangers that threaten London from air attack, perhaps the principal danger is that of the inevitable disorganisation and panic which are bound to accrue when a population of 7,500,000 people become a target for air attack. It is the fact of this huge agglomeration of people that makes this question of evacuation so imperative and so urgent. By most of the principal countries of Europe not merely has the question of preparing plans been envisaged, but those plans have been entirely worked out. We are deplorably behind the times. If this is an earnest of the vivid apprehension in the mind of the Home Secretary of the urgent necessity for this Clause we welcome it, but we hope that by welcoming it we shall not encourage any feeling that there is still time for dalliance. An enormous amount of information is essential in the preparation of these plans.
    The most vital collection of information that must be sought is that relating to the possible division of the population, of London at all events, into approximately five categories. The first category consists of people who would be moved
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    from London on mobilization by being called into their respective military units; the second, those who could be relied upon to remove themselves from the capital at the first threat of hostilities, or on the first day of mobilisation, and would find their own method of transport to places in the country: people, in other words, whose duties would not entail their presence in London; and the third would consist of people whose duties would involve their presence in London. For those three categories, evacuation would not be necessary; for the remaining two, it would be necessary. These two categories would consist of the families of those people serving in the Forces, who could, however, safely be evacuated to distant parts of the country, and the families of those people whose duties compelled them to remain and work in London, but which would need to be visited from time to time by the head of the family. These, consequently, should not be removed to a great distance from London, but should remain in the countryside not far away. In order to reach those places, of course, all questions of transport will have to be gone into; facts with regard to train accommodation and car accommodation not merely gone into, but co-ordinated with the military authorities, who themselves will have to consider, if they have not already done so, the requisitioning of trains and cars for their own purposes.
    Whether this evacuation is to be compulsory or voluntary on the first day of mobilisation is still, I suppose, a question for the Government to decide, but not merely must plans be prepared, but in either event the people must know where they can obtain the vouchers which will entitle them to transport and billets. The question of billeting can only be dealt with by co-operation with the local authorities, who must be made responsible not merely for furnishing information of suitable billets, but for seeing that they are in proper condition, and that foodstuffs, sanitation and water supplies are available. These things have already been worked out in most of the great European countries. To most of us who have already seen so many of our friends sacrificed to the "Moloch of muddling through," there is no virtue at all in being content to abide by that very out-worn principle, which is nothing but the child

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    of national self-complacency and mental inertia. I hope the celebrated "locusts" of lethargy and delay have not yet eaten away our security. The Home Secretary has not much time. He has about three months, I should think, for the skies to be sufficiently clear for the next bombing season to begin.
    4.37 p.m.
    Mr. W. Roberts: I do not think it is necessary to emphasise, more than has already been emphasised, the desire in all parts of the House that this question should receive urgent consideration by the Government, but there is a matter which I should like again to emphasise, and that is the question of dealing with very large numbers of children. I do not know if it is the intention of local authorities to keep schools open in the event of a national emergency. If so, the problem of providing shelter, not only in people's own homes, but in other places of occupation—which in the case of children will be schools—and of travelling to and fro, will become even more difficult for children than for adults. I would press the Home Secretary strongly to make preparations for moving a very large proportion of the children out of London. They can be accommodated in large buildings in the country districts which are relatively safe, but it is a matter which will need very careful arrangement beforehand. Possibly, they can go with their teachers. That is, of course, only one part of the whole problem of evacuation, which has been pressed upon the Home Secretary and the Government from all parts of the House—possibly more insistently by the supporters of the Government even than by the Opposition. We are glad, therefore, to see that the Home Secretary has put down this new Clause.
    I do not know, however, whether I am in the same position as other Members of the House, but it seems to me that the actual wording of this Clause does not carry out the intention which the Home Secretary expressed in his speech. When hon. Members put down Amendments in Committee, in order to emphasise the necessity for local authorities to provide schemes of evacuation, we received from the Government Front Bench several answers. In the first place, the Under-Secretary stated that it was definitely the duty of local authorities. These are his words when he spoke on 16th November:
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    "It would be the duty of the local authorities of big centres of population in the provinces to consider this matter in connection with their own schemes."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1937; col. 295; Vol. 329.]
    I take it, from the Home Secretary's speech, that that is still so, and that the local authorities have got to initiate these schemes; but in another part of what he said I gathered that the Government were going to consider the whole problem of evacuation and to prepare their own scheme. I am at a loss to know what the position is regarding the problem of evacuation, as between the local authorities and the Government. The Clause does not state that it is the business of the local authorities to include evacuation in the scheme which they are asked to submit to the Government. The Clause merely states, and states very clearly, that it is their business to supply the Secretary of State with information so that he may prepare a scheme of evacuation. Are we to understand that the whole policy of the Government is now changed by the Clause, and that the initiative is to come from the Government, and not the local authorities? We want to get this matter very clear, because even the marginal note of this Clause does not appear to coincide with the Clause itself. The marginal note states that it is the
    "Duty of local authorities to assist arrangements for evacuation of civil population."
    The Clause does not say that it is the duty of local authorities to assist the Secretary of State, but merely to provide him with information. Are they to provide transport and accommodation in the districts to which the population is moved? That particular point was the subject of a special query to the Home Secretary on the Committee stage. An hon. Member asked whether the general reply which the Home Secretary gave, that schemes of evacuation were to be a part of local schemes, covered the question of receiving refugees as well as sending them away, and the Home Secretary replied that that was a question which could not be dealt with under this Bill. These are his words:
    "That would be outside the scope of a Bill dealing with local authorities, but we have it very much in mind that we can deal with it either by legislation before the emergency or in what is generally known as the 'Dora legislation' as soon as the emergency begins."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1937; col. 1475, Vol. 329.]

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    That answer was rather disquieting to some of us who are especially interested in this question of evacuation. It seemed to me, at any rate, that it was a matter which ought to be planned long before the emergency arises. We gather that this is rather the view of the Government and that plans are to be made now.
    The hon. Member who has just spoken regretted that the plans were not further advanced than they appear to be, at any rate for London. I do not think we are at all clear as to the position, and I hope that we may have further enlightenment on this point. It is a matter of importance for the local authorities to know whether they are to initiate the schemes or whether the Government will do so, and for another reason, that one section of the population may have to be evacuated, and I hope will be evacuated in large numbers, namely, those people who are living in houses which cannot be gas-proofed. The hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) estimated that the numbers of these people would be between 7,000,000 and 8,000,000.
    If the intention of the Government is to deal with even a small proportion of those people it will not be necessary for the local authorities concerned to provide the other form of protection which has been indicated by Government spokesmen as another means of affording some protection, namely, shelters. Those who live in bad property, slum property, which cannot be properly or adequately gas-proofed are, we learn, to have provided for them by the local authorities shelters which can be made gas-proof and also splinter-proof and blast-proof. If large sections of these people who are living in overcrowded and dangerous houses are to be evacuated, obviously that will remove the burden from the local authority, to some extent, of providing such shelters, but it will place a very heavy burden on those local authorities who are to receive the evacuated population.
    The hon. Member who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench raised the point as to how the finance of the evacuation is to be arranged. That is a point which I would strongly emphasise. If the Government are going to take the initiative in evacuation, are they going to remove
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    the responsibility for providing accommodation, transport, and possibly the maintenance of children and women who cannot support themselves in the areas of the local authorities to which they are sent? Therefore, I would ask that we may have a little more definition on the question who is to initiate the policy, and who is to pay for it when it is carried out.
    4.49 p.m.
    Mr. Ede: By this new Clause the Secretary of State is introducing a new feature into the framework of the Bill and a piece of machinery that will be outside the general machinery of the Act. Hitherto, the Bill has been put before us as a Bill for empowering and requiring local authorities to prepare schemes. The marginal note of Clause 1 says:
    "Duty of certain local authorities to provide and submit air-raid precaution schemes."
    When we come to Clause 3 (2), the Bill says:
    "It shall be the duty of every local authority to discharge such functions as may be imposed on the authority by this Act or by any scheme in force thereunder."
    The general understanding was, as explained on Second Reading and in the Committee stage, that the local authorities would be responsible not for the preparation and submission of the schemes, but for a very considerable part of the working of the schemes that had been approved by the Secretary of State. But when we get to evacuation, apparently a new principle is to be introduced. The local authority is to have no other part, according to the new Cause, in the preparation of a scheme than the submission of such information as is called for by the Secretary of State, and he is empowered to call for this information only from a very limited number of local authorities. Perhaps it would be fairer to say that only a very limited number of local authorities are charged with the duty of supplying the information, because the duty is limited to those local authorities charged with functions under the Act. They appear to be defined in Clause 1 (2) as county councils, county boroughs and certain selected non-county boroughs and county districts, which are allowed to prepare their own schemes, although normally the scheme would be prepared by a county council.
    I gather that those are the only people who are charged with functions under the

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    Act, although the local authorities who have power to levy a rate or a precept for a rate under the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925, may spend money. We may find ourselves in this peculiar position that some of these county district authorities who have been given permission to prepare a scheme, and are given powers under this Act to provide expenditure, may be preparing their own evacuation scheme quite independently of the Secretary of State, because during the past two years of delay the most extraordinary things have been happening in the case of some of these local authorities. They have gone on with their own schemes. I have met one or two chairmen of parish councils, and they think that it is part of their job to repel the air raider. They think that the most effective precaution against an air raid is to prevent the air raider getting through. I am not sure that the definition in the Act of the power of a local authority to spend money does not include the parish council, because they precept on the rating authority, the rural district council, for the collection of their rates under the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925.
    I cannot think that the right hon. Gentleman wants to have these duties in the machinery of air-raid precautions on such entirely different lines from the general line that has been pursued. I agree that it is going to be a very difficult matter, especially if it is carried out according to the programme of the hon. and gallant Member for Wirral (Captain Graham). If the people who have their own cars are to be encouraged to go first and the people who have no cars of their own are to be put into a fourth category and have to wait until they have seen these other people go, and have seen their men folk join the Forces, or some of their men folk have been taken for other purposes, I am sure the chaos that some of us foresaw will be certain to result when these schemes have to be put into effect.
    Captain Graham: I did not mean categories of time.
    Mr. Ede: Did the hon. and gallant Member mean an order of social precedence?
    Captain Graham: No, Sir, but simply the division of people to be dealt with into various types or classes, giving special consideration to each special type.
    Mr. Ede: Then it was purely accidental on the part of the hon. and gallant Member when he got these people into the somewhat extraordinary order that he did.
    Captain Graham: It is a very minor point the hon. Member is raising. It is not a question of class consciousness on my part.
    Mr. Ede: Perhaps it is a result of two or three hectic nights in Paris which the hon. and gallant Member and certain of his friends have recently spent, studying this problem in the midst of the other distractions which, we understand, are part of the night life of the French capital. At any rate, apart from the strictures that are ordinarily directed by hon. Members opposite to their Front Bench, it would appear from the hon. and gallant Member's speech that the programme he outlined is one that indicates that the Government have a great deal of work to do in this matter. I am sure that everyone on this side of the House will express their surprise with the hon. and gallant Member at finding that we are only now beginning to make a start. I am more concerned with the impingement on the whole matter of local government framework of the scheme as a whole.
    I had imagined that it was the intention of the Government that these schemes should be as free from complication as possible, and I cannot understand how with great complications of machinery they are going to run the ordinary scheme of the Bill, as originally printed, with this part of the Bill, under which the local authorities have no share in the schemes, where the Government are going to prepare a scheme and where, so far as I can see in this Clause, the Minister takes no power to compel the local authorities to participate in carrying out the scheme when it is finally evolved. That proves what has been stated many times from this side of the House during the Second Reading and the Committee stage that if these schemes ever have to be brought into effect, they will never be brought into effect on the basis of local authority administration. They will be brought into effect on the basis of what was called D.O.R.A. legislation by the Under-Secretary during the Committee stage of the Bill. Then we shall get back, perhaps, to some form of unity on the whole matter. It would be as well, in

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    view of the original framework of the Bill, to try so to frame the Clause as to make it an essential part of the framework of the Bill that any alterations that are to be made in the case of emergency may be as simple as possible, and that the whole thing may proceed on the basis of unity of command which, as far as I can see, cannot be preserved in the way that is provided by the new Clause.
    4.59 p.m.
    Mr. Sandys: I welcome the new Clause, which, I think, will commend itself to hon. Members generally. The hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) was anxious to show that the decision of the Secretary of State to introduce the new Clause was attributable to the efforts of his colleagues on the Opposition benches. I am sure that none of us wish to quarrel as to who shall get the credit for the new Clause. The Secretary of State has rightly pointed out that the Clause is unnecessary and that he has introduced it mainly in order to reassure hon. Members in all parts of the House that this matter of evacuation is present in his mind. I thought myself of putting down a Clause of this nature on the Committee stage, but having looked at Clauses 1 and 4 I was satisfied that the question was already adequately covered.
    Nevertheless, I am inclined to think that this new Clause will definitely make the Bill more easily workable than it would otherwise have been. As I understand it, under Clause 4 it was possible for the Home Secretary to oblige local authorities to work in co-operation with one another, and that would no doubt have been the Clause which would have been applied in the case of evacuation schemes. But I think it would in practice have turned out to be extremely inconvenient if, for instance, you were evacuating people from London to an area quite remote from London, say in Wales or the West country, to have to ask the local authorities in London under Clause 4 to work in close co-operation with the authorities in some distant part of the country. This new Clause clearly indicates that the Government are going to take over the question of evacuation and to prepare the necessary plans centrally. For that reason I welcome it.
    Then there was the question of finance, which was raised by the hon. Member for West Islington. I agree with what he
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    said. In evacuation schemes the burden of the expense will fall in the main, not on the authority whose people are to be evacuated, but on the authority in the area, to which they are sent. It is they who will have to make the arrangements for billeting, provisioning, victualling, water supplies, and so forth. It would, therefore, seem to be unfair to impose upon local authorities the cost of making arrangements for the populations of areas other than their own. Equally it would be extremely difficult to ask the local authorities of the area from which the people are to be evacuated to bear the burden of the expense without having any direct say in the arrangements. Therefore, it seems to be logical and convenient that the expenditure in this case, in regard to the whole question of evacuation, apart from the collection of information, which will be a minor factor, should be borne by the National Exchequer.
    The hon. Member for West Islington supported the suggestion which I made, and which, I think, was made in a slightly different form by my hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) in the Second Reading Debate, namely, that there should be a Director-General appointed to supervise and organise air-raid precautions. I agree with the hon. Member that, while the appointment of a Director-General and the enlargement of the Air-Raid Precautions Department are desirable from every point of view, it is more necessary in the case of evacuation than in any other matter. On the Second Reading and Committee stages doubts were expressed in all parts of the House as to whether the Government were fully alive to the importance of preparing plans for evacuation. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, by introducing this Clause and by his speech this afternoon, has given us some very material reassurances in this matter. Therefore, in common with other hon. Members, I warmly welcome the new Clause.
    5.5 p.m.
    Dr. Haden Guest: Like other hon. Members, I welcome this Clause, and I am very glad to know that the Home Secretary has expressed his agreement with the general view of the House on this matter, but I would like to point out, with regard to this question of evacuation in the case of air attack, that there are

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    only two alternatives. One is to clear the area likely to be attacked as soon as possible of all the persons who do not actually need to be there while you are able to move them in their normal health and well-being, and the other is to leave them until they have been bombed and then remove them as casualties. There are not any other alternatives. If you leave a large number of people around an area near any docks, whether it be at Newcastle, Glasgow, or London, who do not need to be there, near to a point which is likely to be heavily bombed, you will have to move them after the bombing as casualties, and that will be not only more difficult and more complicated, but will also entail, apart from the humanity or rather the inhumanity of the business, very long treatment of those people and the establishment of very large numbers of hospitals for their treatment. When, therefore, the Home Secretary talked about the great difficulty and complexity of the problem, which I have tried to realise and which I hope I do realise, but which is so great that I am not quite sure whether I do, because it is really a tremendous problem, I would say that, however great the difficulty of evacuating people may be, it is better to evacuate them while they are well and can walk than when they have been bombed and have to be carried on stretchers.
    I think the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) made a good suggestion about evacuating schools. There is an excellent institution in the education service—what are called "School Journeys." It would be a very good thing to send all the children at school on a school journey into some remote part of the country if hostilities should begin. It seems to me that the way in which the Home Secretary has drafted this Clause is the best way of doing it, if I may say so. I do not see how it could be done by individual local authorities themselves. If you think of the Greater London area, involving not only London itself, but Middlesex and all the Home Counties round and about, right down to the East Coast and the South Coast, and going up to Oxford, quite a long distance out—you have only to take an ordinary map of the Underground Railway to see how far you go out—nothing less than governmental authority can deal with that situation,
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    otherwise you will have to improvise an authority of all the local bodies concerned, which would not have, of course, the same power behind it as the National Government have. It is, therefore, desirable and essential, in my opinion, that it should be done by the Government as such.
    There is one point, however, to which I want to call attention in this connection. When 10,000 or 100,000 people are being moved, you cannot just move them casually, as the Home Secretary knows very well, into an area, but you have to be certain that the area to which they are to be moved has not only housing and water, but means of sanitation, because if you do not move them into an area where arrangements for ordinary living, especially water and sanitation, exist, you will then add to your troubles by enormous epidemics. If, for instance, you were to allow a flood of people to leave London at a time of crisis and flood down to the South Coast, to the seaside towns, then the sanitary systems of those towns would break down, and you would have epidemics on a very large scale. That is to be avoided, and that is another reason why the Government are the only authority which should deal with this question. I hope the Government will see to it that every area which may possibly be a point of attack will in fact be asked to give information with regard to methods and schemes of evacuation. As I read this Clause, it would not be the duty of any local authority to initiate such a scheme, and it would only be the duty of a local authority to assist in the preparation of such a scheme by His Majesty's Government when they had been asked to give that information. I hope there will be no doubt at all that all the authorities which might require to have evacuation schemes for the benefit of their population will be in fact asked by the Home Secretary.
    For my part, I feel to a certain extent reassured by the course that the Debate has taken on this Bill and by the existence of this Clause, by which arrangements for evacuation of the civil population can be made. It is not only reassuring in itself, but it is, I think, reassuring as an indication that the Government are really getting down to the very serious consideration of the matters involved and are really facing the great gravity of the situation, which I confess, in the beginning of these Debates,

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    was a matter about which I was not at all sure. I feel assured now that the matter will be grapled with, and I would say to hon. Members who say that they do these things so much better abroad, that at any rate this country has one inestimable advantage over any country abroad, and that is in our system of local Government, which provides for independent action by the local authorities and has a long tradition behind it, which, I believe, is without parallel anywhere else. I think that, by using that to the full and getting their co-operation, as I hope the Home Secretary will succeed in doing, we shall be able to put up a scheme such as will make this country, as far as is possible under the lamentable conditions of an air attack, a safe country, and I say that, not only from the standpoint of immediate safety, but because I consider that if that can be done, it will be an assurance of national safety in the sense that it will make attack very much less likely to occur.
    5.12 p.m.
    Major Sir Ralph Glyn: This Clause seems to me to be the only possible Clause if effect is to be given to the wishes expressed in different parts of the House, and for this reason: Hon. Members have talked about evacuation as if it was a very easy and simple business. It is one of the most complicated things that can be done, and each local authority, unless it is to work through some central organisation, may complicate the position rather than relieve it. There is one personal example which I may give, of a very large city in the Midlands where this question was ventilated, largely on the Debates in this House on the Second Reading, and articles appeared in the newspapers suggesting that certain tunnels on the railway would form the most admirable shelters for large numbers of people who would be evacuated from that city in the event of an air raid. It may interest the House to know that, to take the seating accommodation of the whole of the rolling stock of every railway in this country, it is only a little over 3,500,000 seats. That means the rolling stock operating to the North of Scotland, in Wales, and in every part of the country. I hope, therefore, we shall not lead people outside this House to believe that the moment there is an air attack it will be possible to move large numbers of the population by rail, be-
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    cause it is physically impossible, and we have no right in this House merely to give lip service to ideas unless we see some means of carrying them out.
    It has been my business in connection with the railways to study this problem, not only here, but to study what has been done in Germany and France. I was astonished to hear an hon. Member declare that schemes in Germany and France deal with apparently the complete evacuation of the civil population. They do no such thing. It is clearly laid down in Germany, Italy and France that people living near strategic and tactical points, which will obviously be targets of enemy attack, shall be evacuated, because they rightly assume that such points as that will be the first objective of an enemy. Under the ordinary laws of humanity you should remove women, children and old people from these particular places. Is it not far more important to do that than to lead the whole population of a great city to think that they have all to flow out and choke up every means of communication and thereby prevent the very people who will be exposed to the greatest danger from being evacuated either by rail or by road?
    Captain Graham: If by any chance my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to my speech, as showing the position in categories, I was not referring to whole populations but only to certain people, when it was essentially possibly to move.
    Sir R. Glyn: My hon. Friend did say something of the sort but he did not confine it to the evacuation of people living near strategic points, which, I want to emphasise, can be done only under central direction. It should be done in conjunction with local authorities, if there are dangerous zones from which you want to evacuate people. I should have thought that that was a fairly clear way of dealing with categories or classes or anything else, to evacuate those who are in the most dangerous positions. In Germany they do not encourage the population to go away from their own habitations, but deliberately instruct those who are engaged in factories, if they are not provided with shelters and anti-gas protection, to go to their homes as fast as they can. The German Government make no provision for whole evacuation from large cities because they recognise that the railways and the roads will be sub-

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    jected to a very heavy attack and that the roads and railways will become targets. It will be the objective of the enemy to paralyse your railway communications as well as to paralyse communications by road.
    Therefore, these matters must be taken into account by the Government, and it is only for the Government to say how, when and in what manner you should evacuate. The Clause of the Home Secretary makes it quite clear that any schemes which the local authority put up to prevent panic will be abetted by the central authority, but we must not encourage panic by making in this House speeches which will enable everybody to think that there will be the means of evacuation for very large numbers because that is not possible. It may be an unpopular thing to say in this House, but it is easy to paint rosy pictures. It is our business to tell the truth as we see it, and to say exactly what are the limitations.
    One of the most urgent matters of which we have to think is the prevention of the choking of the means of communication in a time of emergency. I do not know whether the House realises the enormous tonnage which is now conveyed by coastwise shipping, but all that tonnage will suddenly be thrown upon the railways or the roads. There will be abnormal traffic going in all directions and it will mean a certain amount of disorganisation. We have in the railway personnel of this country a magnificent body of men who have never yet failed, but every man will be wanted if we are to keep the lines open. That can be done only if we have the assistance of the police and the local authorities. Hon. Gentlemen will remember perhaps that when they came home on leave during the Great War, when an air raid was going on in London, how suddenly the tubes became packed with people to such an extent that there might have been disaster. There would be a disaster in the event of gas attacks unless precautions were taken to prevent people taking shelter in places like the tubes. Therefore, in talking about evacuation we must not allow an expectation to be raised in the country which is not justifiable, and it is our business in our own constituencies or anywhere else, if there is a point of danger or one that is likely to be attacked,
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    to see that the people who are in that position are placed in safety.
    I agree with the hon. Gentleman on the bench opposite who said that one of the greatest problems would be that provided by those who possess their own little motor cars. It will not matter if their motor cars are laid up and they have not licences. They will bring out their cars and will be the first lucky ones to get away. But all the roads will be congested, and unless the problem is dealt with by a central authority there will be complete confusion. Therefore, the Government have taken the only possible course open to them, and I believe that this evacuation can be carried out only with the assistance of local authorities and with the assistance of the Government. No doubt, under D.O.R.A. or some such regulation, all transportation will have to be very strictly nationalised and operated. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It will have to be done in that emergency. It is the only way in which it can be done, and obviously it cannot be done by local authorities alone.
    Therefore, we should make it clear that, in dealing with the most dangerous positions, and recalling that the ports and harbours will be very heavily attacked and that all luxury traffic will have to be denied the use of the railways and the roads because there will not only be troops to move but munitions and food supplies, that we cannot afford, as our whole future may be at stake, to have communications blocked by unnecessary traffic. I welcome this Clause because I believe that, with the assistance of local authorities, we shall get order instead of chaos.
    5.23 p.m.
    Mr. David Adams: I merely rise because I happen to be a member of an air-raid precautions committee of a local authority, and I desire to know whether the Home Office or the Government have decided to abandon the Circular which was sent out in July, 1935, upon which local authorities of the country, even up to the present moment, have been working. In response to a question addressed to the Home Secretary last week I was informed that 150 or so local authorities had already prepared and sent in schemes to the Home Office based entirely on that Circular. According to the Circular the

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    local authorities were the bodies authorised to prepare the whole of the necessary schemes. Do we understand that, in the matter of evacuation, they are to scrap such schemes, and that the Government themselves will undertake the full responsibility? In my judgment, many of the statements which have been made as to the impossibility of local authorities carrying out this work are not well founded. It will be quite impossible for the Government to do it without co-operating actively with the local authorities of the Kingdom, and particularly in the case of actual air raids.
    If there are portions of the population to be removed, the local authorities must be depended upon to keep the thoroughfares open and to effect the necessary repairs, and, in the new areas, to see that water supply and so forth are carefully preserved and handled. If this is to be a joint scheme of co-operation between the local authority and the Government, with supreme command in the hands of the Government, then, I think, it will be workable, but are the local authorities to be advised from now that they can take no further part in their preparations? The authority of which I am a member has made very close and elaborate preparations for evacuation, and if, in fact, these preparations are no longer necessary, the local authorities ought to be apprised of the same forthwith.
    5.25 p.m.
    Sir Richard Meller: I only want to say a few words on this subject because one or two speakers in the Committee stage have referred to some observations which I made upon the Second Reading of the Bill, particularly with regard to evacuation. I have always regarded the Bill as one which dealt almost entirely with the functions of local authorities. When the discussion arose upon evacuation, it seemed to me that it was going outside the intended scope of the local authorities in this matter, which, if it were practicable at all, was certainly one which ought to be taken in hand by the Government. In the course of the discussion I said that some of the suggestions made with regard to evacuation rather intimated that the local authority would be placed in the position to whisk away large portions of the population to spots of safety. We also assumed that the local authority or
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    the Government were in a position to determine where these safe spots were to be found. From the very early stages of the consideration of air-raid precautions by local authorities, it has been an assumption that attacks would be in the nature of a surprise, and the local authorities have been told that they must make their preparations in anticipation of the fact that they would not have more than from one to four hours in which to work. Therefore, in preparing plans it must be largely upon the prevention of panic and the alleviation of suffering which might arise.
    The proposal which has been put forward with regard to evacuation is a totally different proposition altogether. It first of all assumes that hostilities are likely to remain for some time. The preparations you are to make in that case will involve the placing of people not for a day, but for many days in districts far removed from their homes, and, as has rightly been pointed out, it will also necessitate the provision of sanitation, water and food supplies. That is obviously a duty which must fall upon the Government. I believe that this Clause is rightly drawn, at least in giving the Home Secretary the opportunity of calling upon local authorities to make a survey of their districts, to assist him as to the possibility of placing large or small numbers of persons in a particular area, and to state also whether there would be land, houses or buildings available where water supply and other things would be necessary.
    As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) pointed out, it is not right that we in this House should lead people outside to believe that this Measure will provide safety for all and that there will be evacuation, and that food will be supplied. That is not what the Bill provides, it is not what the Government intend, and it is not what local authorities are to provide. It is intended that we should render the greatest assistance possible in the greatest emergency, but you cannot provide protection for all. If we are to assume that protection will be provided and that nobody will suffer, then we should be obliged to have precautions which go far beyond the financial possibilities of this or any other country. I am glad that this Clause has been introduced, but I want it to be understood that we have

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    not arrived at a stage which provides absolute safety for all, and that the people will understand that even with the best possible arrangements it is not possible to guarantee the safety of everyone.
    5.30 p.m.
    Mr. Simmonds: In view of the observations of one or two hon. Members during the last half hour I feel that I must say something on this matter. There are several views on the subject of evacuation. The hon. Member for Mitcham (Sir R. Meller) seems to suggest that unless you can promise safety for all it is not worth considering evacuation at all; at any rate that evacuation is not a major problem.
    Sir R. Meller: If the hon. Member will study what I said and do me the honour of reading the OFFICIAL REPORT, which he has had in his hands for several days, he will not again say that I ridicule the idea of evacuation. Indeed, I am sure he would say that he is exceedingly sorry that he has given such an extraordinary version of my observations.
    Mr. Simmonds: Although I differ from my hon. Friend in this matter I have no desire to misrepresent anything he has said, but it will be within the recollection of hon. Members that in his speech he seemed to suggest that those who thought evacuation an important part of air-raid precautions were not looking at the realities of the situation. I put it no higher than that. Whatever he may have intended, that I think is the impression he gave to hon. Members. Some hon. Members say that because evacuation does not provide safety for all it is not one of the major aspects of air-raid precautions. Others suggest that evacuation is a kind of "general post" where you have everybody rushing in and out of cities daily and weekly, or perhaps at longer intervals. I fancy that the Secretary of State does not regard evacuation in anything like that light. He regards evacuation—and he is right—as being the means of reducing the intensity of population where attacks are likely to be made most frequently, and if that is not an intelligent proposition I cannot understand air-raid precautions at all. The hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) suggested that because heavy responsibility would be placed on the shoulders of railway companies evacuation could not be
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    carried out promptly and that, therefore, it was a matter which should not be regarded as of prime importance in air-raid precautions measures.
    I believe that evacuation may take one, two or three weeks from certain target areas. As the war proceeds, if one can foresee at all what will happen, we shall have an increasing intensity of air raids, and unless we have complete mastery of the air those who remain in these target areas will suffer an increasing number of casualties, not necessarily an increasing proportion, because the population will have been thinned down. Although evacuation may take weeks surely it is not to be pooh-poohed for that reason. The hon. Member opposite suggested that my friend and I who had been in the French capital discussing these matters with some of the French authorities spent our evenings in discussing other things than air-raid precautions. I can assure him that that is not the case, and that we discussed this matter all the time that was available. Whatever may be said about evacuation, I can, without giving any secrets away, say that the French take a realistic attitude in regard to air warfare and have decided that of the 4,500,000 population in Paris, 2,500,000 will be evacuated in the first few weeks of war.
    London is a similar target area to Paris, in so far as the inner circle of the Metropolis is concerned. Nobody would suggest that the suburbs of London need be evacuated, but I have always maintained, since I have had discussions with those interested in this problem abroad, that it will be essential to evacuate the population who need not remain in the centre of target cities. In common with other hon. Members I should be loth that the country should get the impression that evacuation is a complete solution of the problem of air raids and that all casualties will be avoided if we get early plans for evacuation, but I should be more disturbed if it went out to local authorities that this House did not think evacuation was one of the prime responsibilities of public authorities in time of war.
    Mr. Boothby: When the hon. Member refers to evacuation, does he for example refer to banks and Government offices, so far as London is concerned?
    Mr. Simmonds: I am speaking geographically of the centre of London, and

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    I cannot imagine that in the next war anybody will stay in the centre of London who is not considered essential by the Government. That is a matter which will have to be decided when the emergency arises. As I have said before, I hope the Government will have made plans for their own evacuation in the event of it being necessary. I hope sincerely that the Secretary of State will be able to assure the House that although some hon. Members have poured cold water on the proposal he regards it as of prime consequence.
    5.38 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: I consider the Amendment as important because unless evacuation is properly prepared for and dealt with the whole of our air-raid precautions will break down. Evacuation is a central fact, and only if it is adequately dealt with can other air-raid precautions be effectively operated. I rise only because some hon. Members seem to have peculiar confusions in regard to the situation which is likely to arise. I heard one hon. Member talking about the situation in Germany and comparing the situation there with the situation here. Anyone whose mind is working along such lines cannot possibly understand this question. If a war should break out the great mechanised army of Germany will be rushed every day over the roads to the east and west, roads which have been prepared for a great mechanised army, and the civilian population will be in as great a danger from the German army as from a foreign army. They will take possession of the roads and these juggernauts will be driven continuously along them. Any of the unfortunate population which gets into these roads will be swept away by the Germany military authorities without any hesitation. The big problem for Germany in the event of war is to keep the roads clear for her army to go east and west.
    In this country it is not a question of keeping the roads clear for great armies to pass to and fro, although there will be certain military movements. What we shall have to face is an extreme attempt to destroy the morale of the civilian population. There will be the most terrific effort to bomb the main centres of population. The lesson of the intensive submarine campaign should be learned by every one. It was carried out
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    with the specific purpose of demoralising the civilian population of this country. This will be the main danger so far as this country is concerned. I come to the question of the necessity for preparing for evacuation. No one has had any experience of the problem; experience will have to be gained. Are we going to wait until war starts? Are we going to wait until the bombing planes come over? Is it not obvious that it would do no harm and might do a lot of good, if the Home Office invited the principal local authorities to work out in their own way small experimental schemes of evacuation, just as you have experiments going on in connection with the putting out of fires and rescue from gas attacks.
    Surely it is possible for the principal local authorities to gain experience in evacuation to places which are considered safe, and as to the ways and means of getting the necessary food and water supplies to these people quickly. They could experiment now and get some understanding of the problem and how it can be overcome. No greater problem will face the people of this country once war breaks out. Surely no hon. Member is going to suggest that we should train men to act as volunteers to put out fires and render aid in the case of gas attack, and not face the greatest and most difficult problem that will confront us, that of evacuation, and make no preparations and no experiments with regard to it. Is it not possible to start in the immediate future some small experiment in connection with the evacuation of London in order to see what are the difficulties? As a result of such experiments, we could attempt to get a grasp of the difficulties, so that when the emergency came, we should not be taken unawares, but would understand the difficulties and be prepared to deal with them. I suggest that the Amendment is inadequate. I think there should be an Amendment advising the principal local authorities, in areas where there are great masses of population, to begin now to prepare small schemes of evacuation and experiment with them.
    5.46 p.m.
    Sir S. Hoare: I shut my ears to no suggestion, from whatever quarter it may come, and during the Debate I have tried as much as any hon. Member to learn anything that is useful. I feel that this

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    is an uncharted problem of immense complexity, and I should be the last person in the world to say that we have said the last word as to how to deal with the difficulties. We have to take into account the experience of other countries, although I will say in passing that I agree with the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) as to the danger of generalising too much upon what is suitable in different conditions from our own. That is one of the troubles about the whole of this problem. There is a great variety of conditions, different in one country from what they are in another, and different in one town and in one area from what they are in another town or another area.
    I suggest to the hon. Member for West Fife that there is nothing in our Amendment that will not make possible experiments in the future, if we think it wise to make them. Indeed, I think it would be more difficult to make experiments without this new Clause than it would be if the new Clause were passed. I would also point out to the hon. Member, in relation to his remarks about small experiments, that one of the troubles with evacuation is that small experiments may teach us very little. It seems to me that the essence of the problem is its magnitude, namely, great bodies of men, women and children, it may be hundreds of thousands of them, crowding on the railways, on the roads, on all means of communication. Although I do not wish to dogmatise on the point, I can conceive that an experiment on a small scale would teach us no very useful lessons.
    It seems to me that there have been three questions raised by hon. Members in the course of the Debate. The first question was, Who is responsible for the new Clause? Was it hon. Members on the benches opposite, was it my hon. Friends behind me, or was it the Government Bench? Let me say at once that I am quite indifferent about the source of the Amendment. I am very anxious in connection with this Bill, and still more when the Bill gets on to the Statute Book, that any claims of this or that section should vanish into the distance, and that we should regard it as a House of Commons Bill, passed through the House with a general measure of support from all parties, and that any credit that may arise as to this or that
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    part of it should be shared by the whole House, as an Assembly, rather than by any particular party.
    Two questions were asked by the hon. Members for West Islington (Mr. Montague) and North Islington (Dr. Guest) who bring to the matter expert knowledge. They asked, first of all, whether I could make some further statement as to whether or not the machine of the Air-Raid Precautions Department would be adequate to deal with all of these difficult problems. With the hon. Members' permission, I will say a word or two on that subject in the Third Reading Debate. The hon. Members' other question, which was also asked by one or two other hon. Members, was, Who is to pay for these schemes of evacuation? That question leads me inevitably to the further question, asked in the first place by the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), as to whether, under the new Clause, we were introducing some new principle into the Bill, and whether we were not taking over from the local authorities duties which it had originally been intended should be carried out by them. We must clearly draw a distinction between peace time and war time as far as the expense is concerned. During peace time, before the emergency, the expense in connection with evacuation, urgent and important though the question of evacuation is, will be very small. The aspect will be the preparation of schemes, and I imagine that that will involve quite small sums of money. Any expenditure incurred under that heading would, of course, receive the appropriate grants. Any expenditure that we might make separately, as Government expenditure, would be met out of our general powers to make Defence expenditure of that kind.
    As to the duties, the hon. Member for South Shields was right up to a point, for the Clause does introduce a certain new element, but to a very limited degree. It introduces a new element in so far as it enables the Government, under the Bill, to deal with the co-ordination of these evacuation schemes. The reason for that is that we found earlier in the Bill that inevitably, when dealing with evacuation schemes, there must be a central authority to co-ordinate. Nothing more than that is intended by this Clause. I think I can entirely reassure the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. D. Adams) when I say

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    that we intend that the local authorities should draw up their schemes and that those schemes should be based, as far as possible, upon local administration, but that the Government should come in as the co-ordinating body to deal with the kind of questions raised by the hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest), namely, questions concerning the transference of population some considerable distance. Apart from that, the Clause introduces no new element into the Bill. It makes that small addition to the powers of the central authority without which no evacuation plans could be drawn up.
    Mr. Sandys: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the financial aspect, will he make clear what are his intentions? Does he mean that local authorities into whose areas people will be evacuated, that is to say, local authorities which will have to make preparations for the laying on of water supplies and so on, will have to incur expenditure which will not be paid 100 per cent. by the Exchequer?
    Sir S. Hoare: No, Sir. We shall have to treat the question as I expect we shall have to treat the question of base hospitals, and it will not be a local charge. When the emergency has come upon us, when war has started, that expenditure, I feel sure, will have to be borne separately.
    Mr. Montague: The right hon. Gentleman has said that the preliminary expenditure will be small, and from that I gather that the expenditure will be divided by the local authorities. When the emergency comes, there will arise the question of big Government schemes for the transfer of population. But has the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility that there will be involved some preliminary work causing heavy expenditure? I have in mind at the moment one definite piece of work, the desirability which might arise for huge camps, with tents, and so on. That ought not to be left until the emergency, but to be done beforehand.
    Sir S. Hoare: I think the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) will see, on closer consideration, that that is the type of question on which we cannot give a definite opinion until we have the local schemes. In the particular case
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    which he mentioned, that of camps, he will realise, on further consideration, that many local difficulties are raised by it. Can one be sure that the sites of the camps will be, at some uncertain date in the future, comparatively safe, and so on? It is that sort of difficulty which we must take into account when we have the local schemes. Without the local knowledge and the advice of the local authorities, we cannot say here and now what exactly will be the preparations under any particular scheme.
    Mr. Sandys: May we take it that before the emergency, the local authority into whose area people may be evacuated will not be asked to shoulder any great burden?
    Sir S. Hoare: Certainly, that is our present opinion. I give the House an undertaking that these proposals are concrete only to the extent of our knowledge as at present. If a new situation arises in future which changes the whole picture, I give the House an undertaking that we will meet the local authorities again and discuss the question in view of the new conditions. As at present advised, we take the view that the expenditure involved by the local authorities will be very small. The first step is the preparation of the schemes.
    I would not like to conclude without saying once again that my colleagues and I regard this as one of the most important questions connected with air-raid precautions. We realise the difficulties, but none the less we shall do our best to surmount them. I feel certain that we shall be in a much better position to gauge the difficulties and to come to wise conclusions as to how to deal with them when we have the survey to be made by the local authorities and the proposals which they make on the subject. I hope the House will agree that, far from being what I think one of my hon. Friends described as the locusts of apathy and inertia, we have this question very much in mind. I realise there is still much to be done in connection with it, and as far as I am concerned, the sooner it is done, the better I shall be pleased.
    Clause added to the Bill.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Duty of certain local authorities to prepare and submit air-raid precaution schemes.)
    Amendments made: In page 1, line 11, after "made," insert "in their several areas."
    In line 12, leave out "in their several areas."—[Sir S. Hoare.]

    CLAUSE 3.—(Approval, effect and amendment of air-raid precaution schemes.)
    6.1 p.m.
    Mr. Mabane: I beg to move, in page 4, line 11, at the end, to insert:
    "provided always that no scheme shall be approved by the Secretary of State unless it contains satisfactory provisions for the enrolment of volunteer personnel necessary to carry out the scheme."
    I am moving to insert these words in the hope that the House may be given a little further information about the manner in which the volunteer personnel will be enrolled and dealt with. The matter was raised during the Committee stage in certain of its aspects and the Under-Secretary gave some information, but I do not think it was very complete. He informed the Committee that the authority for the enlistment of volunteers is the local authority acting in accordance with one or other of the alternative schemes suggested by the Home Office. As far as I can discover, the schemes suggested by the Home Office refer not so much to the enrolment of volunteers and the conditions under which they will serve as to the manner in which they will be controlled, that is to say, whether by the chief constable or some other officer of the local authority. He said, further, that it will be for the local authorities to make their own recruiting schemes, assisted, where possible and desirable, by any national assistance that can be given.
    If some 300,000 or 400,000 volunteers are likely to be required, including air-raid wardens, auxiliary firemen, special constables, and so on, the House ought to interest itself in the kind of contract into which these volunteers will enter if, indeed, they are to enter into any contract at all. The House ought also to interest itself in the question whether there should be uniformity of practice throughout the country in dealing with the volunteers. There is also the question of expenses, which is cognate to the
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    matter. It would be difficult if one local authority made certain provisions with regard to the expenses of the volunteer personnel and another authority made quite different provisions. I have taken some trouble to discover what is happening in the country, because it occurred to me that if you ask for volunteers and a number come forward you need something more than merely their word that they desire to volunteer. There is a question of the obligations into which they are entering.
    Suppose a local authority appealed for a thousand men, and a thousand men came along and said they desired to be air-raid wardens, and the local authority said, "Splendid, we will take your names," will nothing more than that be done? If nothing more is to be done, how can the local authority rely on these volunteers turning up to perform the duties when they are to be performed? Will there be anything in the nature of a contract in the obligations into which they will enter? I have here the only form I have been able to get. It is in use in the area of one local authority and is headed "Local Air-Raid Precautions." It has to be signed at the bottom by the volunteer and sent to the air-raid precautions committee. The form says:
    "I hereby offer my services in connection with the local air-raid precautions."
    As far as I can discover, that is the beginning and the end of the matter. The applicant signs at the bottom, there is no further obligation, and the local authority has no more hold on his services than this mere form. He has to fill up a number of questions such as his name, postal address, nearest telephone number, whether his home is illuminated with electricity, whether he can smell well, and whether he has good hearing. There is a rather more important question about the service offered, and there is a note saying:
    "Wherever possible volunteers will be detailed for the service offered,"
    and such services are mentioned as street warden, special constable, decontaminating squad, and so on. Another question that interested me was:
    "Are you prepared to undergo a special course of anti-gas training? It is not anticipated that volunteers will be involved in any expense in connection with this training."

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    It is not very encouraging to the volunteer to be told that it is not anticipated that he will be involved in any expense. I would like to be assured that not only will he not be involved in expense, but that his expenses will be paid. The last question is:
    "Are you a reservist of any of His Majesty's Forces? Are you serving to-day in any Territorial Regiment or voluntary organisation?"
    Whether this question is asked for the sake of information, or whether the volunteer is asked in order that those who are members of such forces shall be excluded from the volunteers, I do not know. However admirable in intention that form may be, it is not adequate for the purpose, and I would like to ask my right hon. Friend whether the nature of the form has been indicated by the Home Office or whether it has been devised by the local authorities. Is it the intention of the Home Office to indicate to the local authorities what sort of form of enrolment should be offered to volunteers, or do the Home Office propose to devise an enrolment form and require the local authorities to use it?
    I have raised these points because I feel that until they are settled and until we are clear on many of them, we are not likely to get the volunteers in the numbers or of the kind that are required. I would emphasise the point I made with regard to expenses, for it is cognate to the whole matter of enrolment. Will the local authorities be informed by the Home Office of the nature of the expenses of the volunteers that will be met? The Home Secretary in the last Debate gave the Committee a complete assurance that the necessary expenses of volunteers would be eligible for grant, but I would like to ask whether those necessary expenses will be the same in the case of all local authorities, and, in order that they may be, will the uniformity be secured by instructions from the Home Office?
    6.10 p.m.
    Mr. Crossley: I beg to second the Amendment.
    It strikes me as important that those who enlist for these services should on the outbreak of war be immediately able to take their places without there being any other call upon their services. I cannot help thinking that there should be certain disqualifications for these services as well as qualifications, particularly in
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    regard to young men who ought to be members of the fighting services. The hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) said on the Committee stage that it was undesirable that these services should provide funk-holes, and the House will agree. It is undesirable that people should be content as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would not have been content if he had been a young man, to act as auxiliary firemen at the age of 25 or even as air-raid wardens at the age of 30 if they are fit and strong men and ought to be taking some part under military discipline in the armed forces of the Crown.
    Dr. Guest: Does the hon. Gentleman really think that the services in the street during an air raid will be safer than with the military forces of the Crown? Surely the safer place will be the front-line trench?
    Mr. Crossley: It depends where it is. In the East End of London that may be so, but I doubt whether it would be so in Liverpool. Allowance should be made for that. Another category which is even more important is that of the skilled workers. I raised that point on the Committee stage and got a rather unsatisfactory reply. The Under-Secretary said that no doubt the local authorities would judge very well whom to select. He added that in the case of men who had important work to do each air-raid post had attached to it a number of men who could go on at different times, and that there would undoubtedly be provision for people who were at work to go on in their own time. I cannot help thinking that the Under-Secretary did not give full consideration to the actual duties of a skilled craftsman in, say, an engineering works supplying munitions in time of war. If the air-raid post is to have a 24-hour day, so is the munitions factory, and the skilled worker will not have any spare time of his own. His whole energy will go to the supply of munitions.
    It may be said that it should be left to the local authorities. I am not satisfied that, unless the local authorities provide the Secretary of State with something like a general register of their personnel for these services, they will apply a sort of test whether or not a man is more wanted on munitions production than for air-raid precaution services. I would like to have a satisfactory reply to that. To give an example; not many years ago, one of the

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    searchlight units for the London air defences was found to be manned entirely from the technical personnel of a company which, in time of war, would immediately withdraw all of them for the whole-time production of an important form of munitions. They were being trained at the time by the War Office for a duty which they could not carry out in time of war. If that can happen in the Army, as it did happen less than four years ago, I cannot help thinking that it might happen if the local authorities are left too much on their own.
    I doubt whether the Under-Secretary would admit that the local authority in Birmingham was any less efficient than are the local authorities in the Metropolis. It seems to me vitally important that there should be some sort of a national register, and particularly important that the local authorities should know that the recruits which they have trained, and for whose training they and the Government have paid, should be eligible for the services for which they are trained and not be immediately required for the fighting Forces of the Crown on the outbreak of war.
    6.16 p.m.
    Mr. R. C. Morrison: I have no idea what attitude the Home Secretary will adopt to this Amendment, but I should have thought that it was an unnecessary one. It is easy to say that we should lay down all manner of regulations and have a register but for how long will that register remain effective? I have experience of a constituency in which there are 5,000 removals every year, and if we were to make a register this month and allocate people to these duties that register would begin to be out of date in a month's time.
    Mr. Crossley: Would not that difficulty apply equally to the local authorities?
    Mr. Morrison: These difficulties will apply to local authorities. I take it that the Amendment asks that the Home Secretary shall not give his consent to any scheme submitted by a local authority unless there are provisions in it to make sure that those who have volunteered shall be bound in some way to carry out their obligations, and I am endeavouring to show some of the difficulties which will arise if anything of this kind is attempted.
    Mr. Mabane: Is there any difficulty about the special constables? They enter into a contract; and the Territorials also enter into a contract.
    Mr. Morrison: This is a much bigger task than recruiting special constables. I want to give my conception of how this scheme will work out, irrespective of any kind of compulsion. The people who will carry out the work required will, generally, be doing work very similar to the work they do ordinarily. For example, the staff of the borough engineer or the county engineer, who ordinarily earn their living by making and preparing roads, will be called upon to repair roads. Other members of the borough engineer's staff will be called upon to form squads who will be responsible for shoring-up buildings and doing other work upon damaged buildings. Those who will form the decontamination squad will not be clerks, musicians, football players or people taken haphazard from the community, but will be the staff of the cleansing superintendent who are already municipal employés and will be familiar with the work they will be expected to undertake.
    As to first aid, obviously the sensible thing to do will be to enrol those who have enrolled in a similar capacity and are already doing that work day after day, not for war but in connection with ambulance units and voluntary organisations associated with the hospitals in a district. The local doctors and nurses could be enrolled for that particular work. In the case of bombs striking gas or water mains or electricity cables, the people who will be called upon to repair them will not be people like Members of Parliament, but employés of the water and electricity companies, all of whom will have been organised and have had special training. That is how I visualise the scheme working. We have now narrowed things down till we get to the fire wardens who will assist in putting out the multitudes of small fires which the Home Secretary has some apprehension may be started in a future war. For that work it would be preferable to have persons with some knowledge of fire fighting, probably retired firemen. There is a very large number of retired firemen, retired at a comparatively early age, who would, no doubt, be willing to undertake the work.

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    And so we should go on until, as it seems to me, the only service for which we should have to make a general call on the ordinary people would be that of the street wardens. It would be their business to give a certain amount of instruction to people in air-raid precautions, in making their rooms gas-proof, rendering first-aid generally, and acting as fatherly advisers to the street. The warden would be, generally, the best known person in the street, the kind of person to whom the street usually looks for a lead. They would be the sort of people who are always ready to volunteer, and not people such as some hon. Members have in their minds who might try to sneak into this duty in order to escape some more dangerous work. I do not think that the air-raid precautions committees or the local authorities will have a great deal of difficulty in finding the personnel and getting people who will loyally carry out the work.
    The really logical outcome of the Amendment would be for us to impose some form of conscription on the people, and if the House wants to make this scheme a first-class failure that is the best way to do it. Whatever may be said of people in other countries, it is notorious that in this country if you want to get something not done—to use an Irishism—you order people to do it. If you ask them to do it I think there is every likelihood that they will volunteer. If the local authorities have to impose some legal and binding agreement upon a person who has volunteered to do something it can only be for a short period, say for three months. Then the undertaking will have to be revised and the person allowed an opportunity of contracting out, because of the dozen and one things that happen to people, such as their occupation taking them away from one district to another. If they have undertaken an obligation to perform a certain duty they may find in three months' time that it is almost impossible to carry it out. It seems to me that the Home Secretary has all the powers which are necessary in this Bill, and that to introduce this Amendment and to lay some form of compulsion upon people who have volunteered will rather retard the Bill and mitigate against its success.
    6.25 p.m.
    Major H ills: I am glad that my hon. Friend has put down this Amendment, because, whether it can be accepted or not, it raises a point of immense importance in practice. Personally, I think the enrolment of the volunteers will develop into something more permanent. This scheme, if it is properly started, will grow on the same lines as did the old Volunteers, to which I once belonged, and which developed into the Territorial Army. I believe there will have to be some sort of permanent hold over these volunteers, so that there is certainty that they will come when called upon. That will involve chosing them in the way which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley), that is to say that we must not choose men who have other work to do either as Territorials or as men in charge of electricity or water supplies. But I think this scheme implies more than that; it implies a definite engagement, and I should like to see these men enrolled for a period of three years, on the lines of the Territorial Army, to come up when called upon, and I should add that they must be paid when they are called up. I tried to put down an Amendment to raise that point, but all my Parliamentary experience did not enable me to compose one which was in order.
    I am certain, that this essential work cannot be done on the basis of the very shadowy obligation which my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Mabane) read out. A man might sign such an obligation and, for various reasons, might find that the demands of his family or his business overruled the document he had signed, and he might pot be there on the day. We must know that the people who are on the list will be there when required; but if they are called up they will want to live, and as they cannot find their own expenses there is every reason for paying them. Let not the House forget, also, that these volunteers will be doing some extremely dangerous work. I am not sure whether, if I had to choose between being a warden of an air-raid scheme or being in the trenches, I would not be in the trenches. I think I should, because I feel it would be far less dangerous. Therefore, I submit to my right hon. Friend that he should see that this scheme is started on

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    the right lines and should let it grow into something more permanent.
    There is a second point about the enrolment of the personnel. I hope it will be decided that the air-raid precautions officers really have complete control. In a scheme of which I have seen the details the air-raid precautions officer was to be appointed by the town council, but the wardens were to be appointed by the police. Then you have all the varied public services which will be affected by air raids: roads, water, gas, and electric light, all under different departments.
    If it is laid down by the Home Office that the air-raid protection officer is to be in supreme control, you must give him power to enforce that control. He will want to know such things as that he can get ambulances easily when they are wanted, especially in the areas of large local authorities such as the London County Council. He will want to know whether the roads can be cleared. As things are now, he will be compelled in many ways to call upon the services of other bodies which he has no power to command. I think the Government have quite rightly put such officers in supreme control, in the areas of district councils. That being so, I beg the Government to make sure, if the schemes go forward, that the air-raid protection officer has the power to enforce them.
    6.32 p.m.
    Mr. Bellenger: The Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Mabane) has opened up a wide and important subject, which is whether all these services can be carried out in war time by volunteer or compulsory service.
    Mr. Mabane: I should not use the expression "volunteer or compulsory service." The Territorials are volunteers, but when they are called up they must obey the call. Special constables are somewhat similarly placed. I should prefer to say "contractual service," or service with no contract at all.
    Mr. Bellenger: Possibly that was the idea underlying the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but let the House not be under any illusion. Any hon. Member who had experience of the last War can hardly imagine that, if the crisis arises, these civilian services can be carried out efficiently without some compulsory system.
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    Whatever happens in peace time, I shall be surprised, if this country is involved in war, bearing in mind all that that means, if we can get an organisation running efficiently without compulsory service. The matters on which the hon. Gentleman wants information, such as, payment of expenses and the guidance of the Home Office, can be safely left to the Under-Secretary of State in his reply. I do not think we need go any further than that at the moment. I would have preferred an entirely different Bill, with an entirely different organisation to that envisaged in this Bill; nevertheless, rightly or wrongly, the Government have said that this matter is primarily for the local authorities. If it is to be left to the local authorities we should allow them to train as many volunteers as they can, under whatever contractual circumstances you like.
    It is true that some of those people will move from one area to another as the years go on, but that will result in the creation of what I might term a short-service civilian army in peace time. The more people you can train in that voluntary civilian service the better, and if they cannot be used in one area they cart be used in another. When the day does come that you really want this service, I think this Measure will go by the board in one night, and that we shall have to adopt an entirely different system. I support the hon. Member for Huddersfield in his request for information about the payment of expenses, and I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will be able to give a definite assurance when he replies that people who volunteer for these services should be recompensed out of pocket expenses. I do not think it matters what forms they sign; the principal thing is whether they will volunteer for the service or not.
    6.36 p.m.
    Captain Gunston: The interesting feature of this Debate has been the absence of party spirit and the readiness to agree or disagree with the proposals upon their merits. I rather disagree with my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major Hills) because I think there is a danger in accepting his idea and having a sort of fixed force for three years. Volunteers should carry out any obligations they undertake, but if they move their households, it might be

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    detrimental to the force and discourage volunteers. In regard to air-raid precautions, it is true, as was stated by the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. C. Morrison), that many of the key men will be the engineers and men in charge of water works. We recognise that, but in the event of war there might be compulsory service. There would also be an enormous demand for the practical men for munition and other work. I do not think that local authorities could resist that demand. Good young men in key positions would be the first to volunteer for service overseas—if you wanted an overseas service. It is therefore very important that local authorities should train men to replace the engineers who are in charge of water works and so on. There ought to be some sort of general scheme by which men in key positions under local authorities can train volunteers, who would perhaps be retired and aged men, or somebody who could take over the work if necessary.
    Another point arises out of the undesirability that men of fighting age should be air wardens, and so on. It is obviously an advantage if the men above fighting age are enlisted in or are required to help those services. They will not be taken away, and they would be of great assistance to the services. I saw in a newspaper that the British Legion have been invited to offer their services, and had agreed to do so. It means that we shall have the assistance of a very large body of men who served in the last War but who are much too old to serve in the next. We ought not to underrate the value of those men. Local authorities should try to get ex-servicemen to become air wardens or, as the hon. Member for North Tottenham suggested, street wardens.
    The psychological value of such men would be very great. If an air raid came, the ex-service men would feel that they had to put a brave face on it and say: "We had far worse things than this in 1914." They would calm the public. We ought to take advantage of the services of the great body of ex-service men, because of the psychological value of men who have had experience of bombing. I hope that the Under-Secretary will inform us when he replies that he has been in touch with local authorities and that they will encourage ex-service men to assist in this work.
    6.41 p.m.
    Mr. J. J. Davidson: I have listened with very great interest to this Debate on the enrolment of personnel, and to the efforts of hon. Members to tell local authorities exactly how the personnel of the volunteer forces is to be composed. This proposal will, in my opinion, stultify the efforts of local authorities in submitting schemes. The Bill is already bad because it does not cover many points which we desire to see covered, but the Amendment would make it materially worse. The Amendment proposes that no scheme should be approved by the Secretary of State unless it contained satisfactory provisions for the enrolment of volunteer personnel. Surely the House will agree that local authorities have an intimate knowledge of what is needed in their areas and should know exactly what is required for the local defence. Surely they are more qualified to submit schemes covering every point than the Secretary of State will be to say that unless they can tabulate satisfactory proof of having sufficient volunteers locally to carry out their schemes, those schemes will not even be considered. To place that onus upon the local authorities will provent them from submitting schemes for the defence of their areas.
    Much play has been made about ex-service men who, we are told, did this and suffered that during the last War, but they had not to meet during the last War circumstances like those which face us to-day, such as the bombardment of the civilian population. They experienced bombing of military objectives in places where every defensive method was used. We cannot say definitely what will happen, and it is not right that the Secretary of State should be asked to approve the principle that because a man is an ex-service man and was in an area which was bombed during the War, he is more capable and more to be desired than a civilian who has gone through the air-raid precaution tests of the local authority and has qualified for his job. I trust that the Amendment will be rejected by the Home Secretary so that local authorities may be free to submit schemes with confidence.
    6.44 p.m.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): I am much obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Mabane)

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    for moving the Amendment, not, I am afraid, because I wish to accept it, but because it has given rise to an interesting discussion which enables me to say something more about this aspect of the matter. The hon. Member made an observation at an earlier stage about the method of organisation of air-raid wardens, for example, and with regard to recruitment. Recommendations have been made by the Home Office on those subjects. Perhaps I can say something about the circumstances of service. It is the case that, in regard to the circumstances and conditions of service, as well as in regard to other aspects of the recruitment of these volunteers, the Home Office have been making recommendations to local authorities. I hold in my hand at the moment a Memorandum on Emergency Fire Brigade Organisation, containing at page 24 an Appendix, No. 7, which is continued by a further Appendix on page 25, and which deals in considerable detail with various matters connected with the circumstances of the enrolment of fire wardens. There is another memorandum on air-raid wardens, but it deals with the enrolment of air-raid wardens in rather less detail because their duties are not so specialised.
    Mr. Mabane: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the matter of fire services, could he indicate the nature of the enrolment suggested for the auxiliary firemen?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not want to go into great detail on the subject, but I think it will probably satisfy my hon. Friend, without wearying the House, if I mention that it deals with such subjects as medical examination, training, the undertaking of service, enrolment, uniform, equipment and so on. Perhaps it will be best, before I come to details regarding the question, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley), of the type of men who would normally be engaged on these services, if I deal for a moment with the question of expenses, because I think that that is a very important point. My right hon. Friend has already said that the legitimate expenses of air-raid wardens will rank for grant, and I think the House will agree that that is satisfactory, but I can give the hon. Member for Huddersfield the further assurance that we shall be prepared to assist the local authorities in this matter with certain model rules in regard to it.
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    We must, however, in a matter of this kind make, allowance for local circumstances, which may differ—for example, with regard to the necessity for transportation and so on.
    I come now to the very important question that was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford with regard to the type of men who should be recruited into these services. I agree with him as to the great importance of this question. I would assure him at once that at the Home Office we are in close touch with the recruiting authorities of the various departments with regard to these matters, and are not making, and will not make, any recommendations with which they disagree. In that connection the hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest) raised a relevant point. It is important that we should all realise that service in some of these organisations in time of war is going to be serious service, and that must be borne in mind in making a proper compromise between the needs of the various services. Our detailed recommendations to the local authorities differ slightly in the cases of air-raid wardens and of fire wardens, the age being rather lower for fire wardens, because clearly their work will be of an extremely active kind.
    Mr. Montague: What does the hon. Gentleman mean when he says that the service is to be serious service? The question has been raised several times, and it has often been suggested that it might be necessary to have some kind of military law. The answer given to that suggestion is that this service is totally voluntary, but it seems to me, from what the hon. Gentleman has said, that it is to be something more than voluntary.
    Mr. Lloyd: I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me. I may have been using too vague words. What I meant was that it would be wrong to think that the service performed by air-raid wardens or by fire wardens, in comparison with that of members of the active Defence Services, would not be a very serious affair. When I spoke of its being serious service, I meant that it was obviously going to be, in many respects, dangerous and very important work.
    Mr. Montague: With discipline?
    Mr. Lloyd: The question of discipline was dealt with quite clearly on the Second Reading, when I said that the service was to be on a purely voluntary basis. There is no question of military law at present. Obviously a war-time organisation has to be considered on a different basis. What we recommend with regard to air-raid wardens is that no one should be enrolled who is a member of the Territorial Army or of the Auxiliary Air Force, or who is liable to recall as a reservist to the Defence Forces, or who has undertaken to join the police force or a fire brigade for emergency service. I may add, with regard to a point that was raised earlier in these Debates, that men likely to be occupying key positions in industry or business, who could less be spared from their work in time of emergency, should not be expected to be available for regular duty. I think that that is not inconsistent with the assurance I gave, and which I believe was regarded as satisfactory.
    Mr. Sandys: With regard to the question of age, would my hon. Friend give the House the assurance which has been asked for at different times, that the Government will seriously consider the advisability of raising the age, not for fire wardens, but for air-raid wardens?
    Mr. Lloyd: We are considering these matters in consultation with the manpower organisation and the recruiting authorities of the Defence Services but I am not in a position to give an undertaking about it except that all these matters will be considered. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major Hills) raised an interesting point as to whether the basis of this organisation ought to cease to be voluntary, or rather, ought to be voluntary on rather a different basis, such, for example, as that of the Territorial Army; and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Thornbury (Captain Gunston) and others were inclined to think there were disadvantages in that course. I think my right hon. and gallant Friend himself said the last word on this matter for the time being when he said that these are early days in regard to organisation. I do not believe that any of us can be quite certain as to the lines on which the organisation may develop in the future. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Thornbury that we very much appreciate the effort that has been made by
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    the British Legion, and the Home Office have communicated with the local authorities pointing out that this great ex-service organisation has offered assistance, and asking them to keep in touch with the local branches if they so desire.
    That brings me to the important point of registration, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford. The hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. C. Morrison) thought there would not be any great advantage from registration, and points out the difficulties of shifting population and so on; but I would remind him of the fact, which I think hon. Members will appreciate, that we have to deal with questions of registration in connection with a different kind of organisation, and, although there are difficulties, we are constantly making efforts, all in our different ways, to overcome them. Nobody suggests that the ordinary work of, for example, registration in connection with political organisation need not continue because of the fact that there are considerable difficulties owing to removals and so on. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford that registration is important. It is important that the local authorities and the Home Office should know who are the volunteers, so that, if necessary, a check may be made as to whether or not they are in some of the prohibited categories—
    Mr. R. C. Morrison: I am afraid I must have expressed myself very badly. I am not opposed to registration. What I was pointing out was that it is rather difficult to impose what would in effect be compulsory service upon a man who does not know where he will be in a month's time.
    Mr. Lloyd: I apologise if I misunderstood the hon. Member. I agree with what he said, but I do not think it was at all in the mind of the hon. Member for Huddersfield in putting down the Amendment to suggest anything in the nature of a compulsory organisation. We have power under Section 284 of the Local Government Act, 1933, to ask every local authority to make such reports and returns and to give such information with regard to their functions as the Secretary of State may require. I am advised that that provision gives us in any case ample power to ask for this information, and, indeed, we propose to

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    ask for it. Perhaps, after the explanation I have given, the hon. Member may be prepared to withdraw his Amendment.
    Mr. Mabane: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 12.—(Application to Scotland.)
    6.58 p.m.
    Mr. Westwood: I beg to move, in page 9, line 14, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that any small burgh affected shall be taken into consultation in the apportionment and allocation of any such expenditure and, in default of agreement, such small burgh shall have the right of appeal to the Secretary of State whose decision shall be final."
    I move this proviso for the purpose of clearing up a point which was raised during the Committee stage, and which the Secretary of State promised to look into, as to the relationship between the counties and the small burghs so far as the allocation of expenditure for air-raid precaution schemes is concerned. In Scotland the 31 county councils, including the joint counties of Perth and Kinross and of Moray and Nairn, and the 20 large burghs, will be directly responsible for the preparation of air-raid precaution schemes, but inside those 31 county council areas there are small burghs which of themselves have local government rights. These small burghs vary in number in the respective counties from one in the County of Caithness to 24 in the County of Fife. There is a fear in the minds of many of the administrators of these small burghs that, because the preparation of schemes is left to the county council, although it was made clear in Committee that the county councils were compelled to consult with the small burghs in the preparation of their schemes, the power still remains with the county councils to allocate the expense in regard to the area of a county adjoining a small burgh in which a scheme is prepared, with special application to that particular area. We claim, and it is the opinion of many small burghs, that this power of allocation of expense is left entirely in the hands of the county councils.
    Some of these small burghs may have schemes imposed upon them which may involve them in serious expense. Burghs like, for instance, Grangemouth, which
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    may have docks in their area, may be called upon by the county council to agree to schemes which not only cover precautions for the docks and the small burgh itself, but for a surrounding area of the county, and there is a fear that, unless there is some tribunal to which the small burghs can appeal—we suggest that in this case it should be the Secretary of State for Scotland—there is a genuine fear, which I hope will be dispelled in the course of this discussion, that the county may allocate far too large a proportion of the expenditure to the small burghs, with no right of appeal beyond the county council itself.
    I mentioned in Committee one case where excessive expense may be incurred by small burghs in making or agreeing to schemes which may cover a county area. Let me give another case. The counties of Fife and West Lothian may desire to make a scheme which might cover not only burghs but very large areas of the counties and they might allocate an unfair share of the expense upon the burghs. The Amendment that we moved in Committee sought for consultation in the preparation of the scheme, and we accepted the assurance that Clause 1 provides adequately so far as consultation in the preparation of the scheme is concerned, but we still have doubt as to the fair and equitable allocation of the expense as between a county and the small burghs. Unless we can have an assurance that no scheme will be passed unless it make a fair provision in connection with the allocation of expense, we are bound to push this to a Division. If we can have an assurance that the matter has been looked into by the Solicitor-General and the Secretary of State and that provision is made in the Bill, which I cannot see at present, so that no scheme will be approved without a fair allocation of the expense as between the county and the burgh, we may not press it to a Division.
    7.3 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland (Mr. James Reid): I think I can give an explanation which will satisfy the hon. Member's fears. In general, schemes are made for the county and the expense is borne by the county as a whole, including the small burghs. But there are cases where a scheme affects a particular locality only. That locality may either be a burgh standing by itself, or a burgh with a sur-

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    rounding landward area, and provision is made for those two possibilities. If the scheme affects only a burgh itself, of course, the direction will be that the burgh bears the expense. I do not imagine that the hon. Member is seriously concerned about that possibility. The other is that there may have to be drawn an area outside the burgh which has to be included with the burgh—an area responsible for bearing the expense. Once the area has been delimited, there is no question about the allocation of expense. That is done automatically in the terms of the 1929 Act according to rateable value. If the burgh has twice the rateable value of the landward area that is included within it, the burgh pays £2 for every £1 paid by the landward area. The only point, as far as I can see, on which the hon. Member desires assurance is the question of how the boundary of the special area is to be fixed. On that matter the county council is bound, when preparing the scheme delimiting the area, to consult the burgh—not merely the members of the town council who are on the county council, but the town council itself—and therefore the town council knows what is going on and, if it objects to the proposal, it can make its representations and, if those representations are not made effective by the county council, it can go direct to the Secretary of State.
    Mr. Westwood: In the event of a small burgh objecting to the suggested provision made by the county council they will not only have the right of protesting to the county council, but can go beyond the county council and make their representations to the Secretary of State?
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: Yes. Under Clause 3 it is provided that "the Secretary of State may approve with or without modifications any scheme, etc." The Secretary of State must, of course, in making up his mind pay attention to any representations that are made to him by any person interested. Whether he will give effect to those representations is, of course, another matter. It is not difficult for the town council of a small burgh to obtain access to the Secretary of State and make its views known. The views of any small burgh which thinks it has been unfairly treated in the preparation of a scheme will undoubtedly be considered by the Secretary of State under
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    Clause 3. I trust that that assurance is satisfactory.
    Mr. Westwood: On the assurance which has been given, and which is now on record, I have much pleasure in asking leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    7.8 p.m.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I beg to move, in page 11, line 1, to leave out "statutory," and to insert "public."
    This and the next Amendment are to provide that public utility undertakings which do not happen to be operating under statutory powers shall be in the same position in this regard as those which have statutory powers.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 11, line 2, leave out "Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1932," and insert "Housing (Scotland) Act, 1935."—[The Solicitor-General for Scotland.]
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I beg to move, in page 11, line 29, to leave out Sub-section (12), and to insert:
    "(12) The duties imposed by sub-section (2) of section one of this Act on the councils of counties shall in the cases of the counties of—

    (a) Perth and Kinross; and

    (b) Moray and Nairn

    be discharged by the joint county council and any reference in this Act (except in subsection (3) of section one as applied by this section) to a county or the council thereof shall include a reference to a combined county and a joint council."
    In two cases in Scotland there are joint county councils and it is necessary to make special provision for them. This Amendment is accordingly proposed in order to define the position of the joint county councils and the separate county councils for the several counties.
    Mr. Westwood: I am sure the Amendment will be much appreciated, particularly by the wee county of Kinross and by Moray and Nairn, where there is not always the greatest friendship between the two wee counties. I am sure that Kinross will very much appreciate the concession that has been granted and the fair play that has been handed out to the wee counties.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    7.11 p.m.
    Sir S. Hoare: We are now drawing to the end of what, I think, everyone who has followed the Debates will agree has been an extremely useful discussion. We have had a series of speeches from every part of the House filled with interesting suggestions, to all of which we undertake to give attention. I think what has most marked the Debates has been the general desire to make this an effective Bill and to ensure that, when it has passed, our air-raid precautions will be of such a kind as greatly to minimise the calamities and catastrophies inherent in a war under modern conditions. It is worth noting that this, the smallest and newest of the Defence Services, has been subjected to a series of more continuous discussions than any of the older Services. We have had three or four days of intensive consideration of these measures of air-raid precautions and I say, as Home Secretary, that, so far from deprecating the continuous attention that has been given to these difficult problems, I have welcomed these three days of discussion, partly for the suggestions that have been made, but also because I think for the first time these Debates have concentrated public attention in a manner in which it has never been concentrated before upon these very urgent problems.
    It seems to me that two main conclusions have emerged from these discussions. First of all, I think we have all been driven to admit that, supposing we were involved in the terrible calamity of war, no air-raid precautions, on however great a scale, can ensure the population of this or any other highly industrialised European country complete immunity. The most that we can do is to minimise the catastrophe, lessen the loss of life and ensure the continuance of the services without which the country cannot exist. The second conclusion to which we have all been inevitably driven is the fact that we cannot concentrate on passive defence a disproportionate amount of money and man-power. air-raid precautions must take their proper place in the general scheme of Defence finance and Defence preparation. If we look abroad at the experience of other
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    countries, we shall see that both in Germany and France this attempt is being made to hold the balance between active and passive defence. If air-raid precautions are out of scale, a tremendous financial burden will be placed upon the country, and, what is much more serious, setting aside the gravity of the financial burden, will be excessive concentration on purely defensive measures and the creation of a dangerous bias in the national mind towards passive protection rather than vigorous attack.
    That is not a cynical and militarist doctrine. It is sound common sense. The best defence for London is a strong vigorous Air Force capable of tying down the enemy's air force to local defence. We have tried to make our plans upon this balanced basis. Our plans are not theoretical. They are founded upon actual schemes. As the House has heard, we have already received schemes from a large number of local authorities, and the plans that we are proposing under this Bill are founded upon schemes we have already received. When our plans are carried out, I believe we shall have gone far to achieve our object of stopping panic and ensuring the continuance of the essential services. But let no one think that our plans are necessarily the final word, or that we regard ourselves as in any way infallible in the proposals which we are making under this Bill. We shall gather experience in this new field as we proceed. Particularly shall we gather experience when we receive the schemes of the local authorities founded upon local knowledge.
    We shall gather experience when we make further and more intensive investigation into those two very difficult problems which have filled so large a place in our discussions—the problem of shelters, and the problem of evacuation. Upon neither of those difficult questions are our minds rigid. We wish to approach both of them as practical men determined to make the best possible preparations in the circumstances, and to make use of all the experience, whether it be experience abroad or scientific practical experience in this country, that is available for us. We are determined, also, to make much greater use as soon as this Bill has reached the Statute Book, of actual experiments. Hitherto, until our relations with the local authorities were settled, it was very difficult to make extensive experiments in

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    many parts of the country. It is true that we have had what are known as "black-outs" in some areas. They have given us much useful experience. They have shown us, in particular, the weak spots in our schemes. As soon as this Bill becomes law, and as soon as active co-operation has been started between the local authorities and ourselves, we intend to have experiments of this kind upon a much bigger scale, and in many more areas than have been possible in the past.
    Further than this, we agree that, in collaboration with the local authorities, we have to make further investigation into the very important question raised just now by the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley)—the question of volunteers. That question, as he obviously realised, is tied up generally with the much bigger and more comprehensive question of man-power generally. There, again, I hope that the meetings which I have had with the associations of local authorities—and I have met them many times in the last few months—are going to continue, and that we shall be able to discuss with them just such a question as voluntary recruitment, upon which local views are essential. If we are to have schemes that will work in the localities, many of them differing in important respects from others, it will be necessary to have that active co-operation that we so much desire between the local authorities and the central Government.
    I come now to the very important question of the organisation of the central Government. Hitherto, I admit we have been working with a small and necessarily improvised organisation. I pay my tribute to the work that our officials have carried out under very difficult conditions during the last two years. The conditions, difficult in a new work of this kind in any case, were bound to be much more difficult as long as the financial relations between the Government and the local authorities were not settled. When this Bill has been passed into law we shall have taken the first necessary step towards active co-operation between the local authorities and the central Government, and the time has come for greatly strengthening the air-raid precautions organisation at the Home Office. Very reluctantly I was driven to the conclu-
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    sion that air-raid precautions must be a Home Office responsibility. I was very anxious not to undertake this very difficult responsibility, and I confess to the House that I looked round to find some other Department to which I could transfer these very onerous obligations. I am giving away no confidence when I say that we had an investigation into the question and came to the conclusion that, of necessity, the Home Secretary must be responsible—that it must be a civil Department responsible for a civil work of this kind. It could not very well be the Ministry of Health for this reason, that two of the principal duties are connected with the police and the fire brigade administration, both already under the Home Office. So reluctantly I was driven to the view that it must be a Home Office responsibility.
    Though it is a Home Office responsibility, I am completely convinced that the Air-Raid Precautions Department, so different from the other sections of the Home Office administration, must be organised upon distinctive fines. It seems to me, always accepting the fact that it is to be a civil department and not a military department, that it must, none the less, be organised upon what I should describe generally as a service basis. By that, I mean there must be a distinction between staff duties and administrative duties. Hon. Members will recall the history of the Service Departments, and that it has always been a necessary stage in their development—Lord Haldane did it in his great reforms at the War Office—to make this distinction between the staff work, or planning, and the administrative details of the organisation. That being so, I propose to differentiate between those two sides of air-raid precautions organisation and, as far as the staff side is concerned, to make Wing-Commander Hodsoll, who has done so much valuable work in the last few years, Chief of what I would call the Air-Raid Precautions Staff with the post of Inspector-General. That will show that this work will be staff work. It will also include the very necessary and urgent work of advising the local authorities up and down the country about their schemes. A further and equally important work which has already begun, not unsatisfactorily, is the work of research in this new and uncharted field. So much for the staff side of the organisation.

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    I come now to the administrative side. There, again, I think that with the great body of new work that is bound to fall on the Department in the near future, it is essential to strengthen the administrative side of the Department. I am glad to say that I have been able to arrange—and all these arrangements have been made with the full approval of the Secretary of State for Scotland—that Mr. Eady, Secretary of the Unemployment Assistance Board and one of the most competent organisers in Whitehall, will come to the Home Office with the post of Deputy Under-Secretary of State and devote his full time to supervising the administrative side of the air-raid precautions work. Incidentally, as a result of these two big changes at the top, there will have to be a number of smaller changes and extensions in the office itself. I have given this information to the House because it will show that I am just as fully alive to the need of a strong department and an intelligent well-instructed staff in this work as any hon. Member. I believe it will be found that when, in the next few weeks, this organisation gets working, we shall be able to tackle many of these very difficult problems that we have been discussing for three days much more effectively than, with the best will in the world, and with the loyal service we have received from our officials in the last two years, has been possible in the past.
    Mr. Bellenger: With regard to this civilian administration appointment that the right hon. Gentleman proposes in the Home Office, can that be done without legislation?
    Sir S. Hoare: Yes, certainly. It is always possible for any Department to increase its staff.
    I hope that these discussions have made it also clear to hon. Members, even though they may criticise this or that part of the Bill, that this is not a sham Bill, that it is a very necessary step in making our air-raid precautions much more effective, and that it is a step without which we could not make the progress that we all desire. I make that observation because I have seen it suggested, not so much here, but in certain sections of the Press, that this is a Bill of no account. That is not the case, and I suggest it is doing an ill-service
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    to our system of Defence to suggest that it is. The result of such a suggestion may well be to discourage local authorities and private citizens from taking the part that we wish them to take in this essential work of Defence. I would ask hon. Members to be patient, and I think that they will see that when we get our new organisation into full blast we shall be able to meet many of the criticisms that have been made in this Debate, and to remove many of the doubts that are obviously in some hon. Member's minds.
    Let us pass the Bill to-night; let us, however, mark the fact that what we are forced to do seems to run counter to most of the ideals, and most of the chief movements and tendencies, of civilised life. City life has been developed after generations of progress, and here, in 1937, we are making provision for setting the clock back thousands of years, and making men, women and children disperse over the country into the most remote districts, and to abandon all the amenities and necessities of civilised life. For generations we have been developing the public services of the country: light, water, gas and so on; and in later years we have been, as part of this development, in order that the population shall be better and more cheaply served, concentrating these services into fewer hands and fewer localities. There is the example that occurs, perhaps, to every hon. Member, of electricity and the grid. Again, the provisions of a Bill of this kind, necessary as it is, run counter to everything we have been doing in that line. Lastly, here, in recent years, we have been striving to give rural districts a good lighting system. Under the provisions we are now considering we are talking about black-outs and the removal of lighting altogether for a time in many parts of the country. If I wanted a further example still, I would say, look at clothing. For generations we have been developing more rational clothes. Under the provisions of this Bill we are making arrangements for dressing people up in gas-masks and gas-proof suits that make them look as if they were monsters out of the dark ages.
    These facts do genuinely depress me, as I believe they depress every hon. Member in the House. They are so depressing, so fantastic in face of the conditions of the modern world, that I

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    cannot believe they are going to persist. At any rate, I can assure the House that this Government will lose no opportunity of removing the conditions that make these provisions inevitable, and while we will lose no opportunity of trying to re-introduce sanity into the world, we must resolutely go on with this programme, distasteful as it is, and leave no doubt in the world that we are determined to make our system of Defence effective, and, as part of that system, this third line of defence air-raid precautions.
    7.38 p.m.
    Mr. Montague: The main principles of this Measure, to the end of which we have practically come, are agreed. A great amount of discussion has taken place during the three days, and many criticisms have been forthcoming, but I think all those criticisms have been of a constructive character, designed to improve air-raid defence. That includes the criticism of even the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), in his speech this afternoon, although I must confess that his speech rather puzzled me, because I always understood that it was one of the first principles of Communism that capitalist wars must be taken advantage of to initiate the proletarian revolution. If that were the case, I am afraid matters would be somewhat complicated. I am sure the hon. Member does not mind sometimes having his leg pulled, even when he is not here.
    Because the Measure is one of agreement in the House, I am rather sorry that the Home Secretary, in a sentence or two, introduced another question that cannot be developed on the Third Reading of this Bill, but which certainly raises some high questions of policy on national Defence in general. He referred to the fact that it was necessary that a Bill of this kind should be passed in order to deal with air-raid precautions. He said that the question was a much bigger one than that, and had to do with a defence of which the first principle was offence, and that it was the duty of the State to localise the incidence of warfare to the countries attacking us. That is all very well; but if that means an explanation of why it is that we are building such a large proportion of bombing planes as compared with defence planes, I am afraid that, if we were able to follow the right hon. Gentleman on that, there
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    would be some other opinions expressed which would involve a discussion on national policy. We are not prepared to admit that it is the business of this country to bomb, as quickly as possible, and before another country can do the same to us, as many women and children as we can. I leave that, because this Bill is a matter of Defence, and the kind of defence that every one would agree with.
    So far as the changes announced in staff and administration are concerned, it is hardly possible, without further consideration, to deal with the suggestions that have been made and with the announcement in itself. It strikes me, however, that it hardly meets the case, and I am inclined to think the proposals will not meet the views of the hon. Member for West Norwood (Mr. Sandys), who, I think, first raised the question of unified control in respect of air-raid precautions. We have had a big discussion, a helpful discussion, I think it has been agreed, and there is no reason why we should not pass very soon to other business before the House. But this is a question largely of regulation and experiment, and I cannot forbear just to refer to three of the questions that have been discussed—matters that I have myself raised in earlier parts of the Debate, and which have been answered hardly to my satisfaction.
    Take the question of tubes. I am not at all satisfied with the reply of the Under-Secretary, to the effect that it is agreed by technical people who understand the subject that the tubes are out of the question as a means of refuge during an air raid. It has been mentioned that that view is not accepted in either Germany or France, and that both Berlin and Paris are counting upon the tubes. I believe that is the case: I am open to correction; but certainly one of the two countries, possibly Germany, is extending the tubes in order partially to provide such a measure of refuge as might be provided in London. It is put forward by the Under-Secretary that it is impossible to use the tubes, because the stations cannot be made gas-proof or proof against high explosive bombs, that you have the incipient panic everywhere, and that there is also the question of ventilation. I said, when I referred to the subject on the Committee stage, that those are surely problems for technical experts to deal with,

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    and to find some solution. I am not sure that it is beyond the power of people who know the problem of defence and gas offence, and the problems of ventilation in the tubes of Greater London, to find means of making the tubes thoroughly effective for those who can use them.
    If we are to avoid panic, we shall require to organise well beforehand. Nobody supposes that the whole population of London can go down the tubes, nor can the whole population take cover in any other kind of refuges that may be put up, nor can they all be sheltered by any other methods that may be used. These measures will have to be partial according to the area and the particular object which is required through those measures. Large numbers of people could be organised beforehand for this purpose, just as we can organise anything else. It is the height of folly to leave unused scores of miles of underground tubes which are proof against the type of high explosive bomb that would be used, apart from the dock areas and other objectives of that character. Although I am not an authority on technical details, it is a matter of common sense which would appeal to the man in the street that there ought to be some way of utilising the tubes in order to get over some of the difficulties that have been enumerated.
    As far as black-outs are concerned, the Home Secretary referred to the experiments that have been made, notably in Kent and Essex. I followed the extensive reports of those experiments in the "Times," and perhaps it might be a matter of interest if I asked the Under-Secretary whether there is anything in the suggestion made in the "Times" that it might be that black-outs are ineffective, because aeroplanes could use magnesium flares which would penetrate the darkness and light up the whole countryside. That is a matter of interest which the Under-Secretary might take up. Then there is the question of transport. One hon. and gallant Member suggested that there would be different types of and segregations of people to be dealt with. I acquit him, as he assured us that he had no snobbish or class distinction ideas about the matter. I would, however, ask the hon. and gallant Member whether he imagines that under conditions of air raids the people who possess
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    means of conveyance, such as motor cars, will be able to fly from London immediately, without any question. Does he imagine that that is going to happen?
    Captain Graham: I very much hope that before the actual emergency arises effective plans to enable people to leave will be in operation, and that they will be able to do so.
    Mr. Montague: There are many people who have means of conveyance at their disposal, and who possess more of the amenities of life than the people in the dock areas, who think that they will be able to get out quite easily and quickly. Well beforehand the Government must make plans for dealing with transport, and every kind of transport, including the railways and private motor cars, must automatically come into national service. If that is understood, we shall be satisfied in that regard.
    There is one further point. When I made reference to buckets, spades and gummed paper the Under-Secretary seemed to think that I was making fun. I was making fun, and many people have made fun of these proposals. But I do not want it to be thought that I am not prepared to agree that in some circumstances there might be some advantage in measures of that kind. My view was, and still is, that to regard such measures as a very serious contribution to the problem of immunity from gas attacks is quite outside the question. Let me put a suggestion to the Under-Secretary. There was one experience during the War which it might be worth while recalling. In the front line we had our usual dug-outs, and after gas had been first used the entrances to those dug-outs were covered over with blankets. If I remember rightly the blankets were soaked in some kind of chemical preparation that had a chemical effect upon the gas. We called it "hypo," whatever that means. At any rate, it was a method of chemical saturation of blankets which were put over the openings to the dug-outs, and they were very effective.
    It seems to me remarkable that after 20 years, and with all the experience of the War and the advance of modern science, we have not evolved some chemical method of making rooms gas-proof which could be used in the way I have suggested. I am inclined to think that it should be possible to use the blanket

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    technique for the purpose of the gas-proof rooms, rather than the stupid idea of gummed paper and the rest of it, or even cellophane window-glass. It would be better if we could provide people with blankets and chemicals in which they could saturate the blankets and put them over the doors and windows. If the blankets were put up from the inside, it would reduce the danger from smashed glass. Seeing that it is necessary to go in and out of a room, one does not want to seal up the room, and there ought to be some method of de-gassing rooms by means of chemically saturated blankets upon the same principles that were applied effectively during the War not only against localised gas bombs, but against the much more difficult problem of other forms of gas.
    Mr. Boothby: It would be unfortunate if it got out that the hon. Member was discouraging the use of paper to a great extent. He surely realises that gummed paper has been extraordinarily effective in Madrid during the last 18 months, and that idea is supported by the highest scientific authorities.
    Captain Gunston: The hon. Member will recollect that during the War when we used the blankets there were no doors to the dug-outs.
    Mr. Montague: It is true that we had no door, but if the blankets were effective without a door there is no reason why the importance of the door in a room should not be a relative proposition. With regard to Madrid, there has not been any effective gas raid upon Madrid. Therefore, there is no comparison. I merely put forward the suggestion, and perhaps the Under-Secretary will take it up, because it might be a more effective way of dealing with gas attack than the paper method. If the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) had been here when I spoke on the subject before, he would have noted that it was not so much the discouragement of the paper method that I suggested, but my reference was to the fact that when you have congested families, with a number of children, and you are faced with the problem of providing a single gas-proof room in a double-roomed house, you cannot expect that rolls of paper should be kept in readiness perhaps for months or years on the shelves ready for use,
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    together with the instruments handy. When you are dealing with a position where every function of life from birth to death takes place in a single room or in one or two rooms, the problem is difficult. That was the burden of my criticism in regard to the paper method.
    Let me say a few final words in regard to the latter part of the Home Secretary's speech. He spoke of the terrible fact that we are to-day passing a Bill of this kind at this stage of human civilisation. I believe the right hon. Gentleman is thoroughly sincere. Every emphasis he placed upon his words proves that he personally abhors the idea of war and the necessity for our doing what we are at the present time to prevent war being as bad as it might be in London. One can only agree with him about the insanity of the human race, and one wonders whether it might not be the case of the planetary cycle over again, barbarism to primitive civilisation, primitive civilisation to kingship, kingship to democracy, democracy to dictatorship and then back again from dictatorship to barbarism. But I have hopes that there is some principle in the universe greater than that. I believe that there is something which will prove, in effective measure, an urge to progress in humanity. I have faith in the goodness of humanity at heart. With all the bad signs of human character that are displayed, I believe that when it comes to the final issue, the good will triumph over the bad, and that we shall be able to reach out to finer and more beautiful horizons of human civilisation than we have ever known.
    7.47 p.m.
    Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueter: The Home Secretary said that we must not discourage local and private people from taking their full share in this new line of Defence. I should like to put this question to him. If private people put up gas-proof or bomb-proof shelters, will their assessment be raised locally and under Schedule A for Income Tax purposes? On this subject I addressed a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer recently. I asked
    "whether he will take steps to secure that private persons putting up gas-proof or bomb-proof shelters, which will involve considerable capital expenditure, will not have their assessment increased by the local authority or their Schedule A assessment increased?"

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    The reply I received was:
    "Assessment for the purposes both of rating and of Income Tax Schedule A is, under the statutory provisions relating thereto, a matter entrusted to the appropriate assessing authorities—in the case of rates the local assessment committee, in the case of Income Tax the local bodies of general Commissioners of Income Tax subject to the prescribed right of appeal in either case—and my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate that no Minister is empowered to interfere with their discretion in the matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1936; cols. 1389–90, Vol. 329.]
    It seems to me that the local authorities ought to have some power to disallow any increase. Therefore, I put this question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day:
    "whether he will take early legislative steps to empower the local assessment committee for rates and the local bodies of General Commissioners of Income Tax to disallow any increase of their assessment by the local authority or under Schedule A to those private persons who put up gas-proof or bomb-proof shelters which may have involved considerable capital expenditure?"
    The answer that I received was:
    "The suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend would involve great complications. Where the capital outlay involves no increase in annual value, the assessment would be unaffected. But if an owner increases the letting value of his property by such outlay, the ordinary rules of assessment would apply."
    I take it that the Home Secretary wants as many gas and bomb-proof shelters put up as possible. Can he not consult with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and see whether something cannot be done with a view to disallowing any increases in local assessments and under Schedule A? There are many people in my constituency who are very concerned about this. They were bombed in the War, at Waltham Cross and elsewhere, and I think a good many of them would put up shelters if their assessments were not increased, but if their local assessments under Schedule A are increased, I feel certain that a large number of people will not put up these shelters. Therefore, I ask the Home Secretary whether he will look into that matter.
    8.1 p.m.
    Mr. Simmonds: I appreciate the inference from the speech of the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague), from the Opposition Front Bench, that his colleagues and himself do not propose to oppose this Bill on the Third Reading.
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    They felt it necessary to move certain Amendments and to press them to a Division, but I am sure it will be thoroughly appreciated by all hon. Members who take this matter of air-raid precautions seriously that there is to be no Division on this occasion. I feel that we ought to express our thanks and congratulations both to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and to the Under-Secretary of State for the very courteous way in which they have replied to the many political and technical questions which have been raised throughout the discussions on this Bill from all parts of the House, and as one of those Members who stressed the point that the status of the Air-Raid Precautions Department in the Home Office could appropriately be raised, I would like to say how grateful I am to the Secretary of State for the announcement which he has just made to the House. It is too early to say whether or not this will satisfy all demands, but I think hon. Members in all parts of the House will agree that if you can separate planning from routine administration, you have made a first-class decision, and that is what the Secretary of State has done in his reorganisation of the Department. I am particularly delighted to know that he has appointed Wing-Commander Hodsoll to high office in the new organisation, because the House and the country are under a real debt to him for our having forged ahead as far as we have done with these precautions, when there has been so much indifference and lethargy in the House—we must frankly say—and more particularly still in the country.
    We are going to present, as I hope without much interference from another place, this Bill to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and let us say, quite frankly, that the success of the Bill will largely depend upon the way in which the powers which we have given to him are utilised. The Bill will not save the people, as far as they may be saved, from hostile air attack unless it is wisely administered, both centrally and by the local authorities. Therefore, while many of us who have for many months been studying the particular problems of air-raid dangers and air-raid precautions have felt that in certain respects we were lagging behind that which we ought to have achieved in air-raid precautions in this country, yet we feel now that there

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    is a renewed determination, on the part both of the Government and of the local authorities, to get something moving quickly.
    But there is—and I want to be quite frank on this point—one point where I feel that we are very far away from thinking on parallel lines with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and that is on the question of shelters. As I understand his point of view, it is that it is useless to endeavour to protect ourselves against explosive bombs because vast depths of ferro-concrete—I remember my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence mentioning figures of 20 and 30 feet thickness of concrete—are required in order to protect one against the direct results of a hit by the largest bombs. On that basis they have said they do not propose to recommend that the country should protect itself against the explosive bomb. On the other hand, they have proposed what is known as the shelter room or the gas proof room, armoured in various ways, by different materials, but chiefly, as has been observed, by paper, cellophane, possibly some sandbags in front of the window, and wet blankets. That room, in a gas attack, without any explosive bombs, may serve a useful purpose, but I think it should be realised that an enemy will always consider what form of precautions we have taken, and if a country has protected itself well against gas but not very well against explosive bombs, it will shower explosive bombs—20 lb., 50 lb., or 100 lb. bombs—down on our cities, hoping to blast the houses down and thus permit the ingress of the gas into the rooms. Therefore, I would say that we cannot proceed on any single line in this matter, and what I hope my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will be able to tell us is this, that in the reorganised department there will be a new investigation into this question of the importance of the shelter.
    I do not want to say too much about what we saw when we were over in Paris a few days ago, because it is not entirely a parallel case, but I think I ought to tell the House this, that the French authorities have come to the conclusion that it is worth while protecting oneself against the small and the medium sized explosive bomb. They have expended in the City of Paris to date only £1,500,000 for
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    this purpose, yet they have underground shelters for the control of Paris—
    Mr. Lloyd: That is the total expenditure.
    Mr. Simmonds: I understand that the sum expended other than for this purpose is very small, and the Under-Secretary of State knows very well that they have not spent any money on gas masks, because they are stating that that should be, at any rate for the moment, an individual form of precaution and that the people can buy them in the shops, though I am certain that hon. Members opposite would say that that was not within the reach of the bulk of the population, and may be they are right on that point. Substantially, the French authorities have spent £1,500,000 on shelters, and these shelters embrace all the necessities for continuing to operate the community in a time of war. That is what is so important about a scheme of shelters. They have a shelter for the central police authority; they have a shelter which will enable them in every borough to handle between 100 and 200 cases brought in from the houses or streets, whether wounded, asphyxiated, or gassed. They hope to pass through these underground clearing hospitals about 50 people an hour. They have, in addition, public shelters, as I think the hon. Member on the front Bench opposite indicated, on the underground railways. In one of those which we saw some 4,000 to 6,000 people could go down, and there would be there a complete air-filtration plant and numbers of gas doors to prevent gas going through. I agree with him that we must not be too sure that the tubes of London may not be a much more valuable refuge than has been stated sometimes from the Government front Bench.
    Then there is the very important point of shelters in the homes.
    Mr. Fleming: Does the hon. Member suggest that the London tubes or the Paris Metro, are any protection against 1,000 lb. explosive bombs?
    Mr. Simmonds: Most emphatically. Where you have a railway station near the surface, of course it is no more protection than any ordinary cellar, but many of these stations are 50 and 100 feet below the surface, and they are most definitely 100 per cent. proof against a

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    direct hit by any known projectile. That coincides both with the French and the British—
    Mr. Fleming: Does that take into consideration the possibility of gas mains near by being hit by an explosive bomb?
    Mr. Simmonds: You have to take risks, obviously, in every case, but that is the type of objection to the use of the tubes in London which has suggested a policy of not using the tubes. I dissent from that view. If you have a tube station where you have a large gas main or a large sewer which might in any circumstance get punctured and flow into the tube, you will prefer not to use that station, but the policy need not be based on the most difficult case. Let us have an open mind and say that certain stations cannot be utilised for this purpose and others can. I fear that we have rather proceeded so far in London on the basis that it is all too difficult and that therefore we must do nothing. It is my very earnest plea that the Under-Secretary of State will tell us that this matter will be looked into afresh by this new organisation.
    Now I will speak of shelters in the home, which, after all, is a most important point. The French authorities take the view that the danger when we stay in our homes is that through blasts of explosive bombs in the streets or through direct hits our homes will tumble down on us. For that reason they have made a most careful investigation of all the cellars in the city of Paris, and they have found that some 27,000 are suitable for air-raid precaution shelters, some with stiffening of the ceiling of the shelter by putting in steel beams, others simply by shoring it up with wood, but 27,000 shelters are satisfactory to protect the people therein against damage if the building falls down upon the shelter, and those 27,000 shelters will house 1,750,000 people. When the House realises that they are only proposing to leave in Paris 1,250,000 people, the others having been called up for service or evacuated, it will see that the French authorities, for a very small sum of money, have gone a long way to solve the problem of the shelter in the home.
    But in this country I believe that one of the problems that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has to face most
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    seriously undoubtedly is the question of protection in the factories. The Federation of British Industries have been incessantly urging him for the last six months to state his intentions in this matter. We shall have approximately 10,000,000 people spending a large part of the day and, during wartime, of the night at these factories which will be recognised as legitimate targets for the enemy. What are we as a country doing to protect our workers? Let us put aside for the moment the workers' point of view and look at it purely from the point of view of national strength in war. These workers will be required to maintain the Army in the field, the Navy on the sea and the Air Force in the air. Is it not imperative, therefore, that we should have a well-organised plan for protecting these workers in the event of hostile attack while they are working at these legitimate target points?
    The Government have to realise, although there may be some responsibility on the part of the employer to protect his workpeople, and that it may be wisdom on the part of the employés to make their own contribution, particularly let it be borne in mind that, during a time of war, all factories manufacturing for the Services will be virtually State-controlled. Why, therefore, should shareholders of these companies in times of peace make provision out of their earnings for services to protect the workers in time of war, when the factories will, for all intents and purposes, belong to the State, and not to them? I know that a large number of hon. Members in this House feel with the Federation of British Industries that this is a matter which brooks no further delay. New factories are going up weekly and monthly without any provision whatsoever for the protection of the workers.
    Building construction is another very important point. France is not a dictatorial country, yet she is demanding that, in every new building, the roof shall be at a certain angle, so that the thermite incendiary bombs are much more likely to glance off the roof than to go through, as would be likely if the roof were at a small angle. They are insisting in all houses upon ferro-concrete floors which, again, will not only protect the people in the house, but will greatly reduce the fire peril to the community, because the wooden floors of houses are full of potential danger.

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    The last point I want to make is on the question of communications. I have heard it stated that our air-raid precautions in time of war will largely depend upon runners—men carrying messages from one point to another asking that such and such a thing may be done. The French take an entirely different view, and they have put down at a depth that has rendered them 100 per cent. proof against the largest bomb inter-connecting telephones between all the essential service points in time of war. Therefore, the motto that one ought to adopt in a large city such as London, Birmingham or Manchester is either to get out by means of evacuation, or get under by means of a shelter. I do not think that it is legitimate for the Government to recommend that people in these target areas—and I stress this point—should remain above ground while an air raid is in progress. Lastly, let us remember that we have constantly been told of the increase in the speed of aircraft. In the last War it was 100 miles per hour, last year it was 200 miles per hour, this year it is 300 miles per hour and next year it will certainly be 400 miles per hour. This increase in speed all means that we have ourselves less time in which to get things done. I do, therefore, pray that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will bear in mind the time factor every day while he has this terrible responsibility on his shoulders of making these air-raid precautions effective.
    8.21 p.m.
    Mr. Davidson: As usual, my remarks on this particular question will be very brief. Unlike the hon. Gentleman the Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds), I do not intend to go over all the questions which we have been discussing for the last few days, and I sincerely hope that the Under-Secretary will not yield to the temptation of making his Second Reading speech all over again. I want to deal with one or two new points which were raised by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. I would like to know, when the Under-Secretary replies to this Debate, exactly whom the Inspector-General will control. I understand that under the schemes that are now in operation in Scotland, England and Wales, we are to have regional inspectors appointed, and I want to know whether the Inspector-General will have control over the decisions of the regional inspec-
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    tors, and whether his control will extend to plans submitted by local authorities from all over the country?
    At first I was rather dismayed at the intimation of the Home Secretary of this semi-military organisation that is being set up, and I would like some reassurance from the Under-Secretary that local authorities in their decisions and submission of schemes—because, as the Home Secretary has stated, they know all about the character of the local circumstances—will retain full powers, or will they be under the control of the Inspector-General or his staff, whoever his staff may be? With regard to the transfer from the Unemployment Assistance Board of Mr. Eady, which the Home Secretary mentioned, hon. Members on this side of the House will look upon that transfer with mixed feelings. One important point which, I think, the Under-Secretary will agree I have stressed during the Debate, has to do with the question of communications. I have continually stressed the fact that in the circumstances of any future air raid Scotland will have to be the supply base for practically the rest of the country, and I should like to know whether, with regard to the functions of regional inspectors and of the Inspector-General, the schemes of local authorities in Scotland will receive the consideration that they will deserve.
    My hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) and the Home Secretary agreed that we were now facing an issue which has been caused by the folly of humanity. I do not accept that statement from the Government Front Bench or from my own. The majority of the people of the world to-day desire peace, they do not wish to have to take these precautions against air raids, and it is not the folly of humanity, but the folly of governments, capitalist governments of to-day which has made these preparations for war necessary. Many of my hon. Friends will agree that it is capitalist governments, and our own in particular, which cannot be excluded from the responsibility for a state of affairs that has caused this Bill to be introduced.
    8.27 p.m.
    Mr. W. Roberts: There are one or two things that I want to say on the Third Reading of the Bill. I agree with the Home Secretary that it is a dreary subject. We hope that these precautions will

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    never be required, but I hope that now the Bill is to be passed we shall go ahead with the precautions much faster in the next two years than has been the case in the last two years. Anyone who has watched recent events in Spain and China must feel that there is a great deal which can be done to mitigate the lot of the civilian population in time of war. The Home Secretary said he felt confident that the Bill would greatly minimise the effects on the civil population. I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman in that statement. It is a Bill which gives considerable powers, and under which a considerable amount of protection, in so far as protection can be given, will be given to the civil population. If the ideas of the hon. Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) regarding shelters were carried out there would be, I believe, a considerable measure of protection for the civil population, but the cost of such a scheme would be enormous. I listened with considerable dismay to the Home Secretary when he said that only a small proportion of the money must be spent on passive defence and a far greater amount on the strategic view that the best defence is attack.
    Mr. Simmonds: I am not suggesting that vast sums of money should be spent. I am suggesting that sufficient money should be spent at target points, and if that is borne in mind—the French have done this in Paris at a cost of £1,500,000—hon. Members will not run away with the idea that protection at target points is going to cost hundreds of millions of pounds. It is nothing of the sort.
    Mr. Roberts: I take the view of the Home Secretary, that a policy of shelters to protect the population would cost an enormous sum of money. Airmen although they may direct their attacks on targets, are interfered with by other planes and anti-aircraft guns, and, as in the last War, there will be a tendency for them to unload their bombs wherever they may be. In those circumstances, if you are going to protect the population, you will have to protect them everywhere. The Under-Secretary made some remarks on the Second Reading and I want to ask what precisely he was proposing when he said that the Government's policy was to provide with shelters those people who
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    cannot make shelters in their own homes. He went on to say:
    "In regard also to those caught in the streets, it would be the duty of the local authority to provide shelters, and I am able to say that the Home Office would approve for the purposes of grant the expense in which a local authority would be involved in regard to the construction of public shelters in congested areas where the houses are not suited to be used as shelters."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1937; col. 294, Vol. 329.]
    Later on he said that there would have to be shelters for people where they work. You really will have to protect the people at three places, in their homes, or nearby if their homes are not suitable, you will have to protect them en route to their work, and at their work. You will have to protect them in the centre as well as in the places outside. Let me put this specific question to the Under-Secretary. What degree of protection is he intending to give by the shelters? Are they to be shelters which are gas-proof? Does he hope with sandbags and other reinforcements to make them splinter-and glass-proof? We have discussed the question whether they can be made proof against high explosives, and we know that to attempt that is an almost impossible task, but it is possible to make these shelters adequately safe against smaller bombs and blasts from bombs at a distance. I hope the Under-Secretary will give us a little more information on that point. As to what really can be done under the Bill, if I am able to judge from the amount of money to be spent, it will not be very much really to safeguard the population against the ill effects of air raids. I do not think it is unfair to say that the action which will be carried out under the Bill will be 90 per cent. in connection with mopping up the mess after an air raid has taken place, to 10 per cent. in actually preventing the loss of life, damage and casualities from glass and splinters.
    One thing is certain and that is the kind of situation which will face a city after an air raid. That is a very necessary part of the precautions, and I do not under-estimate its importance, but unless very much greater sums are spent on evacuation and shelters, I think it will be false for the country to think that the provision that will probably be made under the Bill will save life to any very large extent. Nevertheless, we are glad to see this step in the right direction. In

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    conclusion, I believe that the success of the precautions to be carried out under the Bill will depend upon the amount of local co-operation which the Government receive. I believe the public is very willing to co-operate. People are very interested in this matter and are anxious to be convinced that the Government's proposals will be really effective and that a real attempt will be made to protect them. If people were convinced of that, they would co-operate in this work wholeheartedly.
    8.37 p.m.
    Mr. Westwood: We have almost reached the end of our deliberations on this Bill, the discussions of which have been very interesting. May I say to the hon. Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) that not a single Amendment has been moved from this side or a single word spoken for the purpose of obstruction? Hon. Members on this side have made every possible effort to improve the Bill, and it is the earnest desire of my hon. Friends and of the administrative authorities that the Bill should be made as easy of administration as possible, and as successful as possible in the object for which it is being placed on the Statute Book.
    Nevertheless, we still have our misgivings as to the financial burden that is being placed on the shoulders of the local authorities. It is true that those misgivings have been partly met by Clause 9, which says that before the expiration of a period of three years from the passing of the Bill, the Secretary of State shall again consult with the local authorities for the purpose of discussing with them the financial burdens imposed upon them by the Bill. However, our misgivings are only partly met, because we feel that the whole burden of dealing with what is national business ought to be borne by the State rather than any financial obligation be placed upon the shoulders of the local authorities. But we have to take the Bill as it is, and is far as the Scottish local authorities are concerned, I can say, on their behalf, that they will give that active cooperation for which the Home Secretary has pleaded and will do everything in their power to minimise, at least, any of the horrors of war that might unfortunately come to our native land.
    Fire was one of the first discoveries of man, and he tried to utilise it for the
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    benefit and progress of mankind. It is a tragedy that to-night we should be discussing the last piece of progress made by mankind, in which fire is to be used for the destruction of humanity. We have to make our preparation and defence against the misuse of something which ought to have been only an advantage to mankind, but which, through abuse, has become a menace to civilisation. It is a shocking reflection on the intelligence, sanity, mentality, and spiritual development of mankind that to-day we should be discussing how to save ourselves from the savagery of war; but the world being what it is and not as we will it, we cannot avoid these preparations.
    I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) that we must give full credit to the Home Secretary in his desire for peace. We believe that he is as anxious as we are that there should be peace, but we also believe that the policy which he and hon. Members opposite pursue makes the possibility of war still nearer. While giving the right hon. Gentleman full credit in his desire for peace, hon. Members on this side of the House, just as much as hon. Members opposite, must look at the world as it is and not as we would will it. Consequently, we have to pass legislation for the purpose of minimising as much as possible the horrors of aerial warfare if it should come to our native land. But while we are prepared to co-operate, and while the Scottish local authorities are prepared to give their active co-operation, we on this side shall continue to work earnestly and sincerely for the time when it will be possible to wipe war from the midst of so-called civilised nations, and allow every nation, including our own, to make that progress which peace alone will allow mankind to make.
    8.42 p.m.
    Sir John Mellor: I wish to raise one question which, although I shall be brief, I submit is of considerable concern to certain local authorities. It is a question which I was prevented by the Rules of Order from raising on the Report stage. Under the Bill, the councils of boroughs and urban districts have the right, subject to the approval of the Home Secretary, after consultation with the county councils, to present their own schemes instead of being incorporated in the

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    general county schemes. I believe many urban councils desire to take advantage of that, and it would be a great pity if any obstruction were unnecessarily placed in their path. Some of them are very apprehensive that, under the Bill as it stands at present, they will be compelled, if they prepare and administer their own schemes, to pay the cost for not only their own schemes, but also, through the county precept, for the cost of the county schemes, if the general county rate includes provision for air-raid precaution schemes. There is in existence a number of cases in which the smaller local authorities have to bear a similar double liability. They consider that expenditure on air-raid precautions should be treated as expenditure for special county purposes, and levied only on those districts which directly benefit from such expenditure. It is true that in Clause 1, Sub-section (7), provision is made that:
    "An air-raid precaution scheme prepared and submitted by a county council may make provision as to what expenditure, if any, under the scheme is to be dealt with as expenditure for special county purposes."
    The word used is "may," and I suggest that a provision of that sort should in this case not be permissive, but mandatory. I find in the Bill no safeguard which would prevent the council of a borough or an urban district having to pay twice over. These councils desire very earnestly to have some assurance that that will not be the case. I think that unless they get that assurance the intention of the Bill will be defeated, and those councils will be discouraged from preparing their own schemes. I hope that when the Under-Secretary of State replies he will give an assurance that in another place some Amendment will be introduced giving effect to what I suggest is the real intention of the Bill.
    8.45 p.m.
    Mr. Ritson: I rise to plead with the Home Secretary to give his confidence fully to the local authorities, working with the local police, police auxiliaries, and volunteers. The type of local authorities are as varied as the flowers in May and I am anxious that the Home Secretary should consider the special position of the East Coast. I saw a few years of this sort of thing in the last War as an ex-policeman, an active special constable and an administrator. I am anxious that the
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    Home Secretary should deal with the local authorities in the question of air-raid precautions and in doing so I want him to realise that he has a different type of local authority to deal with in the North of England than he has in the South, and that the discipline that will apply to the South will not apply to the North. The police are an institution in this country, and are first looked to by the civil population when there is any trouble. I remember when we first had special constables nobody took any notice of them. The public much preferred the uniformed policemen of whom they were proud, and on whom they looked with confidence in time of danger. One uniformed policeman was equal to 50 special constables. I was one of them and used to look out for Zeppelins with a hooked stick, and when they dropped bombs I dropped my stick.
    I am anxious that on the east coast the Home Secretary should give us as much local autonomy as possible. In Sunderland we have already had consultations with Durham County because the east coast during the War was attacked almost nightly. If we are to have evacuation of the towns on the coast, we shall have to keep in touch not only with the central office in London but with the county council authorities. I hope that the Home Secretary will put his foot down on the suggestion of an hon. Member opposite that people who could should evacuate London in their own cars. People who have the privilege of owning their own cars should not be allowed to escape from danger and leave other people behind, and if they tried to do so I hope that the police would not let them get very far. I hope that there will be conditions laid down so that people will know when it is time for everybody to rush to their posts, and that no privilege will be accorded to any one class.
    Captain Graham: It is not a question of giving a privilege, but simply a matter of national convenience and safety.
    Mr. Ritson: A man who has a car should not be allowed to get more easily away from the danger zone than other people.
    Mr. Simmonds: There has been a good deal of misunderstanding about this point, and I would like to ask the hon.

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    Member whether it is not clear that if a million people in London have cars and are encouraged to use them, the public transport can be utilised by those who have not? If the cars are not allowed to be used, it will take twice as long to evacuate the people, and the casualties will be much more serious.
    Mr. Ritson: If ever there were a time of real Socialism, it is in war time. There should be no favourites anywhere. The hon. Member has put the point that if you can get a million people out of London in their own cars, there will be more accommodation for people in the public transport. You will find, however, that there will be more jealousy at a time like that if there is any privilege than at any other time, and the people will not allow Tom to escape while John is left behind. I feel from experience that once the authorities, through the police, attempt to get people out of the danger zone by methods of privilege, the whole system of discipline will be smashed. I hope that the Home Secretary will stand firm in this matter and will act for the nation, and not for the privileges of the West End.
    Mr. Simmonds: It is not a question of privilege, but of convenience.
    Mr. Ritson: I do not want the hon. Member's class left any more than mine, but if one class is privileged to get away it will destroy the discipline that the Home Secretary will try to enforce through the police. It will cause bitterness and envy such as will not allow the privileged ones to get out of the city. I remember that in the last War even the military made mistakes that the civil authority had to correct. We were under a lieutenant-general in the north, and the police were under him in the sense that they had to do the actual practical work. I remember one night a colonel and a major drove from Cramlington to Sunderland with the lights of their car ablaze against the orders of the superior authorities. The police tried to stop them, and because they were dressed in military uniform they objected to being stopped by a common Bobby. The police could not catch them at one corner but got them at another, and one of the common Bobbies jumped on to the officer's car and drove them to the police station, which was the right thing to do. They
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    demanded to see the chief officer, who happened to be sitting in the room in mufti. The colonel began to rave about the common Bobby taking him to the police station. The chief constable said, "You had better drop that complaint about his being a common Bobby, for I was once a common Bobby and am now chief constable." The colonel then complained about being driven in to the police station like a felon, and the chief constable pointed out that it was because he had not obeyed the orders of his superior officer. "If," he said, "you are going against the orders that I have to carry out you will go into the police cell." He then made the colonel and the major cover up the lights of their car and apologise to the common policeman. When that story got abroad it did more to help the police in carrying out their duties to the benefit of us all than anything I have known. If the Home Secretary carries out these air-raid precautions under the civilian authorities through the police, the confidence of the public will be gained far more than if they are carried out through the military.
    One of my hon. Friends raised the question of ventilating the tubes. I would soon get over that if I were a member of the city authorities. If London looks like being defeated by the ventilation of a few tubes, it had better send to the north or to Wales to get some colliery manager to do it. He would soon blow you out of the tubes. When these colliery managers can ventilate collieries 900 yards deep for several miles and supply air for millions of mice, hundreds of horses and thousands of men, with only one shaft for the down draught and another for the up draught, they will be able to supply sufficient air for the tubes of London. We do not agree with everything that is in this Bill, but now that we are to have this scheme I feel that the majority of the House will agree that it is our duty to accept it and to work it. Whatever we may think about war—and I am sure there is not a man in the House with any sanity who does not agree that war ought to be done away with—we must realise that we shall have to face the possibility of it whether we like it or not. My experience during the four years of the late War was that it was the spirit of comradeship which helped the women and children to get over the difficulties of fear. Imagine them

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    coming along to anybody like me to shelter them, but that is what they did, because they felt that when there was trouble we had better all meet it together, and that sort of companionship sometimes meant a shelter which was more to them than would have been a gas shelter. We hope that the Home Secretary will not allow himself to be dragged into taking action through the military or naval authorities. Let whatever has to be done be done by the civil power, and then I feel sure that, whatever we may have to face, we shall manage to take action to protect ourselves.
    8.57 p.m.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: I feel sure that we were all delighted with the forthright and sincere speech to which we have just listened. I have not had the experiences of my hon. Friends who come from the East Coast, and I rise to put a question about the other side of the country. I have previously addressed a question to the Home Secretary about the position of the towns in my constituency. The local authorities have met in conference and have discussed air-raid precautions, and I am sure they are prepared to co-operate in every way, but I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman is putting the initiative on the local authorities in every case, or whether the new department which he intends to set up will take the initiative. My constituency lies within a radius of 8 or 10 miles of a Royal arsenal which is now being constructed, and that makes it different from other areas in the country, and the local authorities feel very much perturbed as to the precautions which they will have to take in such circumstances. We are 170 miles from London, and that makes us to some extent less exposed to attack than London, but the construction of that arsenal will make us a target for any potential enemy, and I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman, through the new Director-General—whose name we have not yet heard—will take that area into special consideration.
    It is for that reason that I should like to know whether the local authorities have to take the initiative in air-raid precautions, or whether the Director-General will immediately apprise them of the plans which must be prepared, first, for
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    evacuation. Are the people in the neighbourhood of that arsenal to go to the mining valleys within 8 or 10 miles of the arsenal itself, or what is to be done? At the moment there is just one fire brigade for the whole of that area. Has that depressed area to carry the whole of the financial liability for these air-raid precautions—or up to the percentage contained in the Bill—or will such an area have special consideration, especially as it will be involved in a danger which has been created by the Government itself in placing the arsenal there?
    In conclusion, I would say that I am not accepting literally the language of the speech either of my hon. Friend on the front bench or of the right hon. Gentleman himself. I agree with what was said from the back benches. I do-not believe that war is attributable to the depravity of human nature. I do not believe we have wars because mankind is insane. I believe that war is due to a philosophy, the philosophy which is dominating the economics of this world. I believe that the moment we change that philosophy of acquisitiveness through the world all mankind will be prepared to cooperate, and that the moment we destroy economic discord we shall have universal concord.
    9.2 p.m.
    Mr. George Griffiths: I want the Home Secretary—and I am pleased to see that the Minister of Health has also come on to the Treasury bench—to consider in connection with air raids what ought to be done about the burning muck stacks which are to be found up and down the country. We had some experience of them during the last war. There was a muck stack on fire only 400 yards from my home, and the enemy airmen missed it by about 200 yards only. There are 84 muck stacks burning day and night in Yorkshire, and they will be a great target in air raids. Any enemy bomber who comes over Yorkshire will see where they are and where to drop his bombs. I promised that I would not speak for more than five minutes, and I have not spoken more than a minute and a half.
    9.3 p.m.
    Mr. Lloyd: I should like, first, to say that the whole House will have heard with great pleasure the declaration made

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    by the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood), on behalf of the Opposition, strongly appealing for the cooperation of local authorities in working this scheme after the Bill has been passed. It is important that the country, and, indeed, other countries, should appreciate that though there was a division upon the financial principles underlying the Bill nevertheless this House and the country are united in a desire to get on with the work in as practical a manner as possible. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. J. Williams) raised a point about the position of his own district, and wanted to know whether, as regards the submission of schemes by local authorities, there would be any change as a result of the reorganisation announced this afternoon by my right hon. Friend. There is no change as a result of that reorganisation. The position remains the same, and it is for the local authorities themselves to submit the schemes and for the Home Office to advise on the technical questions.
    Local authorities will want the help of our technical experts in submitting schemes which are adapted to their local circumstances. In reply to the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. G. Griffiths), who raised the question of muck-stacks, I should like to see what proposals are made by the local authorities in the areas concerned before dealing with the problem. We shall give them due consideration when the schemes come up for approval by the Secretary of State. I think that is also a partial answer to the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Ritson) when he was quite rightly insistent that much regard should be given to local circumstances and that local authorities should be able to take the circumstances of their areas into full consideration. It is our desire that all these problems should be settled between the Department and the local authorities by agreement and consultation.
    I think the House was very interested in his reminiscence about what the policeman did to the colonel. I am in a position to tell him that the man in blue has not lost his spirit in these matters because an incident very much bearing upon this point occurred during a "black out" in the district of the Commander-in-Chief at the Nore only a few weeks ago. Cars were supposed to dim their lights. A policeman found that a car was proceed-
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    ing along a road without its lights dimmed. He stopped it and learned, without the occupants being aware of it, that it contained the Commander-in-Chief and the Assistant Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department. The House will be pleased to learn that the policeman insisted at once upon the lights being dimmed and that the Commander-in-Chief and the Assistant Under-Secretary of State were only too pleased to obey the command.
    Mr. Ritson: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recommend the promotion of the policeman.
    Mr. Lloyd: That story shows the spirit in which the regulations are carried out. It is the desire of the House and certainly the desire of the Government that in these grave matters everybody should be treated on an equality. I come at once to the question raised by the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) about our recommendations with regard to gas-proof rooms, which he suggested were not a serious contribution to the problem of gas. He gave the instance of the blanket that was doused with hypo in the days of the War when he was in a dug-out, and he suggested that we should recommend it. As a matter of fact, we do recommend the blanket, and I have a handbook here dealing with the matter. The modern view, however, is that the blanket should not be doused with hypo, because research has indicated that the chemical, which is, I suppose hyposulphite of some kind, gives no more protection than mere dousing with water. We recommend it not as a first protection but as a second. My hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Thornbury (Captain Gunston) made the very good point that in the days of the dug-out you had no door and had to make-use of a blanket, but where you have a door why should you not make use of it? It is a good point, because when you have a door you need merely to cover the chinks. In the same way, as long as you have a window, why not use it? While the window is intact it is a gasproof surface, so why not take advantage of it?
    There are other things which, on the surface, seem ridiculous but which have been proved by experiment to be of service. If you paste on strips of paper they have quite an extraordinary effect in mak-

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    ing window panes resistant to the effects of blast from high explosive bombs. Why should you not make use of these things when they are available in the house? By all means, as was suggested, keep a blanket and water in reserve so that these means are at hand.
    It is probably not the desire of the House that I should go in great detail into all the individual points which have been raised. I might say in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor) that we appreciate his points and that we are looking into them with a view possibly to moving Amendments in another place. My hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) raised an important question of principle. The best I can do is to state to the House what is our present view of what I may call shelter policy. The greatest measure of dispersal possible must be obtained. That is one of the great watchwords in air-raid precautions. I think every hon. Member with experience of this matter will agree as to its importance.
    Mr. Sandys: Within the towns or outside?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not want to go into details, but I think, as a matter of fact, that it applies in both cases. Wherever possible, people should take shelter either in their homes or in their factories and business premises. Public shelters must be provided in all built-up areas for people who may be unavoidably caught in the streets. I think it follows that the number of public shelters which ought to be provided in different parts of the town will depend to a considerable extent upon the normal population in the street at important times. Shelters may have to be provided in areas where, for whatever reason, people are unable to make provision for shelters themselves in their homes.
    The hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) asked me to give him information on the standard of protection to be sought in the selection and construction of shelters. In our view they should be gas-proof and should, as a minimum, provide protection against blast and splinters. (The alternative that I am envisaging is trenches, which many experts consider the best form of protection.) If they are located in buildings, they must be strong enough to withstand
    312
    the collapse of the building, if it is damaged. In the selection of shelters, wherever possible the buildings will be selected which are sufficiently stout in construction to withstand the ordinary general purpose bomb before it reaches the bottom. In the case of bombs with instantaneous fuses this may not be very difficult. It will be more difficult in the case of bombs fitted with delayed-action fuses.
    A handbook dealing with shelters is at present in course of active preparation. I can tell hon. Members that in it definite standards of protection will be laid down. I can give hon. Members the assurance that we shall very carefully consider, in the light of the remarks which have been made this afternoon, the standards which ought to be laid down in that handbook before it is issued. There is also to be a survey under the scheme of possible accommodation for shelters in various localities. Preliminary investigations have been made, for example, in Liverpool and Birkenhead.
    The second great watchword of air-raid precaution is improvisation. It will be for the local authorities to make surveys of the buildings in their district in order to see whether or not suitable existing buildings can be adapted. Railway arches or the cellars are what we have in mind for this purpose. For example, I understand that in the City, in a recent investigation, 4½ acres of cellars were recently inspected under warehouses close to Moorgate and in Bethnal Green large underground vaults which were used during the last War to provide shelter for 3,000 or 4,000 people. It will be for the local authorities to go very carefully into these problems in making their surveys.
    I come now to the very important question of air-raid precautions in factories, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston, by the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Sir M. Sueter) and by one or two other hon. Members. I ought to say, first, that the Government take the view that in regard to air-raid precautions there is a duty and an obligation upon everyone to take suitable precautions—the individual householder, the owner of a factory or business premises, the local authority, and the Government itself. We expect factory owners and owners of business premises to consider this matter

    313
    and to take suitable precautions for the protection of their workpeople in regard to air-raid risks. I think the House would like to know what has been happening in this matter up to the present. In the first place, the Air-Raid Precautions Department have been in touch with the Federation of British Industries and with chambers of commerce in all parts of the country, and I can say at once that we very much appreciate the co-operation we have received from these bodies in the dissemination of our views on this matter. We have also prepared a handbook which gives detailed technical advice with regard to air-raid precautions in factories having regard to all the various circumstances, technical and otherwise, which may exist in different kinds of factories. Experts of the Department have paid visits to 500 specially important factories to give advice on the question on the spot, and in a considerable number of factories steps have already been taken in this matter, though I will not go into details this evening, because I do not think the House will require it. Some factories have already complete schemes, with first-aid apparatus, decontamination squads and rescue squads, together with air-raid precautions exercises in which everyone in the factory takes up air-raid stations. As regards new factories—
    Mr. Simmonds: Does my hon. Friend really mean to say that, apart from precautions which cost little or nothing, factories are embarking on necessary schemes of protection which cost money, without the support of the Government?
    Mr. Lloyd: Yes, Sir; it is a fact that in a number of factories a considerable amount of money has been spent on this matter.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: Are the inspectors concentrating on pit-head shafts, winding engine houses, and things of that kind?
    Mr. Lloyd: I would not say that they are concentrating on them, but if the hon. Member would like to make any representations with regard to factories of that kind, we will consider them very carefully. We have been trying to deal first with the most important aspects of this matter from the air-raid precautions point of view.
    Mr. R. J. Taylor: May I emphasise the importance of pit shafts? The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that at all hours of the day and night men are in the pit; the pit is never free of men. The shafts are near to the pit heaps, which in many cases are blazing furnaces. In view of the fact that a considerable number of men, often the whole complement of men, may be in the pit, and of the fact that the pit heap is close to the shaft, I want to emphasise the importance of first protecting the pit shaft, and, what is equally important, of dealing with the blazing heap.
    Mr. Lloyd: We all appreciate the importance of these points, and I have just been able to ascertain that a special investigation by the Mines Department from the point of view of air-raid precautions is being made at the present time. As regards new factories, the Air-Raid Precautions Department are prepared to advise anyone engaged in the construction of a new factory in regard to the air-raid precautions aspect of the building. We have an architectural expert in the Department, and are also in touch with architectural firms with a view to disseminating technical knowledge on these matters through that channel. We are also asking the local authorities to do all they can to disseminate knowledge on this question among those who are undertaking new construction in their areas. Of course, the schemes will contain provisions for instruction and advice to the public, and it may be that the procedure of passing plans under the building by-laws will play a part in this kind of work.
    I come now to an aspect of the question on which I hope the House will bear with me for a few moments. We appreciate, of course, the importance of the Government giving an example in regard to this matter, and very considerable steps are now being taken in the Government Departments to introduce air-raid precautionary measures. Arrangements are being made to organise first-aid parties and decontamination squads in all Departments, and a 50 per cent. reserve is also being trained. Members of first-aid parties will receive training from the Red Cross and the St. John Ambulance Brigade. As regards anti-gas measures, about 50 instructors drawn from the various Departments have been trained at the Falfield Anti-Gas School. Eighty

    315
    instructors trained in the same manner have also been supplied to the Post Office, and it is hoped that by the end of the year there will be over 130 instructors in the Post Office alone. The Office of Works are constructing seven gas chambers in various Government buildings in the London area, so that all the staff who wish to go through a gas chamber during the course of this training will have the opportunity of doing so.
    With regard to the question of structural precautions, an extensive structural survey of existing Government buildings is being made, and the most suitable accommodation will be earmarked for refuges in which the staff would be collected on receipt of an air-raid warning. A fire survey is in progress, and the necessary additional fire-fighting equipment will be installed. Structural precautions against air attack will be considered in the case of all new Government buildings. Rather special consideration is being given to the case of the new Whitehall building, and it may be of interest to give some account of what is being done in that regard. It is proposed to construct a roof of solid concrete, to arrest small incendiary bombs and offer some resistance to the penetration of high explosive bombs generally. The floors will be of solid concrete, and will offer further resistance to bombs which penetrate the roof. The second floor below the roof will be a strongly reinforced floor, capable of regaining débris if the top floors collapse. A strongly reinforced floor is to be provided on the ground floor level, to provide protection for the staff collected in the emergency refuge accommodation in the basement. The building will be divided into 16 sections by solid cross walls extending from the foundations to the top of the building. These walls will not only stiffen the building against the effects of external explosion, but will limit the effects of internal explosion and the spread of fire. Other precautions include adequate provision for emergency lighting, ventilation, and exits. Air-raid precautions are also being considered for the Palace of Westminster.
    Mr. F. Anderson: Are any special precautions being taken so far as railways are concerned? Raiding aeroplanes generally follow a canal or railway track,
    316
    and an arsenal that is being built in Lancashire is very close to an important junction.
    Mr. Lloyd: Of course, we appreciate that point, but my right hon. Friend has explained that it is quite outside the Bill and falls to be dealt with in regard to public utilities, about which he has promised an early statement. That brings me to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Sir M. Sueter), who raised an important matter in regard to the question of Income Tax allowances on expenses in connection with business firms and factories. This is a matter that is covered by the provisions of the Income Tax law. Expenditure of a capital nature is not admissible as an expense in computing a trader's profits for Income Tax purposes, but where the expenditure is of a revenue nature it will, generally speaking, be allowable as an expense. It appears, therefore, that items of expenditure on air-raid precautions in respect of which traders would obtain relief from Income Tax would not cover the whole field of necessary expenditure, but the Government are considering what it is practicable to do by way of special measures to meet the situation.
    Mr. Davidson: The hon. Gentleman has not answered two questions which I put, first of all with regard to the appointment of this Chief General Inspector. I have a note saying that regional inspectors have to be appointed for Scotland, England and Wales, and I asked the Under-Secretary to indicate whether the Chief Inspector will be in control of the regional inspectors in Scotland and will he have schemes submitted—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Dennis Herbert): The hon. Member must not make a speech.
    Mr. Davidson: I was merely asking a question.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member has put his question. He must not elaborate it.
    Mr. Lloyd: It will normally be one of the duties of the Inspector-General to be in control of the regional inspectors of the country. The position in Scotland will be discussed with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the reorganisation that my right hon. Friend indicated does not in the least detract from its essentially civilian character.

  BLIND PERSONS BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
  Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  BLIND PERSONS BILL.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Duty of local authorities to promote welfare of blind persons.)
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: I beg to move, in page 1, line 21, after "arrangements," to insert,
    "to the satisfaction of the Minister of Health."
    We were rather surprised to find that the hon. Gentleman had taken out these words, which are in the principal Act, and we have put the Amendment down in order to find out whether any circumstance has occurred recently to justify these powers being taken from the Ministry of Health and being left entirely to the local authorities. In the previous Debate we had a large number of instances of the variety of treatment meted out to blind persons. Some of the county councils administering the Act pay from 22s. to 26s. per week. Surely the Minister ought to retain as much power as possible to have uniformity maintained throughout the country. If it is left to local authorities to administer the Act in any way they think fit, the disparity that now obtains will tend to be aggravated rather than remedied.
    9.32 p.m.
    Mr. W. H. Green: The Bill has met with a certain amount of criticism on the ground that it is not perhaps bold enough in certain directions, and we have framed this Amendment entirely from the angle of improving the Bill. We feel that, if it is accepted, though a small Amendment, it may have very important repercussions. We are rather surprised to find that while in the 1920 Act it is laid down that the various schemes for the welfare of the blind which local authorities must develop and operate must have the sanction of the Minister, that is left out of this Bill. I would be the last to depreciate the wonderful work that local authorities are doing, but there are local authorities and local authorities, and
    318
    sometimes they are not too keen to carry out an Act in the spirit and intention which animated the House when it passed it, and the functions entrusted to local authorities are very important. If their schemes are first to have the sanction of the Minister, it will make for uniformity in administration, and I am sure that is what the House desires. We believe the Amendment will improve the Bill, and will be of great value to the blind.
    9.35 p.m.
    Mr. Messer: It was made plain during the Second Reading Debate that there are certain anomalies connected with the administration of the Blind Persons Act. This Amendment would give the Minister an opportunity of securing some degree of uniformity in the administration of that Act, and most people who have any knowledge of the subject agree that it is a matter which ought to receive attention. The position at present is that county and county borough councils are empowered to draw up schemes and to make declarations, taking out of the Poor Law any blind persons who have hitherto been receiving Poor Law relief and giving them the benefit of the Blind Persons Act. This Bill proposes to effect an improvement by providing that in future all such schemes must take the blind people out of the Poor Law, but that does not alter the fact that of 146 local authorities 61 have made such a declaration, 44 have made no declaration but have domiciliary assistance schemes, while 41 have no schemes and have made no declaration.
    The result is that all over the country we have such a variety of arrangements by local authorities as to cause glaring anomalies. For instance the scheme in Hastings provides 22s. a week for the blind person, while that in London provides 27s. 6d. If we do not wish to consider cases of authorities which are separated by too great a distance geographically, there are three authorities in Lincoln, those of Kesteven, Holland and Lindsey, which have different schemes in operation within that comparatively narrow boundary. All the Amendment seeks to provide is that when a local authority draws up a scheme, that scheme shall be put into operation only when the Minister is satisfied that it meets the needs of the blind community. The Minister should have some regard to the fact that we on this side are showing a

    319
    certain amount of faith in him. We are suggesting that if the matter is left to him, everything will be all right. At one time I did hold that view but I have been rather disillusioned of late. My faith in the right hon. Gentleman has been weakened, and my hopes, if not quite shattered, have been almost so. But I trust that in this instance he will see that there is nothing unreasonable in our request and accept this Amendment.
    9.39 p.m.
    The Minister of Health (Sir Kingsley Wood): I am much indebted to the hon. Gentleman for his concluding observations, to the effect that he has still some lingering faith in me. I thought he was about to express the hope that I would soon be succeeded as Minister by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), and that it was upon that basis that he was commending the Amendment. I do not think the Committee need have any difficulty about this matter. This aspect of local government has been dealt with in successive Measures passed by Parliament in recent years. There is always difficulty as to how far there should be complete discretion in the work of the local authorities and how far there should be interference or supervision by the Minister. The matter was considered in connection with the Local Government Act of 1929, and it was decided, subject to certain safeguards, that we should where possible give a much larger measure of discretion to local authorities in the administration of certain schemes in respect of which grants were made.
    Accordingly, both in the Midwives Act and in the recent Public Health Act of 1936 in relation to the treatment of tuberculosis, it was decided to give local authorities discretion in matters of this kind, with the very effective safeguard that the responsible Minister should have power, if local authorities were not carrying out their duties satisfactorily, to reduce the assistance which was being given to them by the State. I suppose that is the most effective weapon that could be employed. In this case we are simply following a precedent which has been repeatedly approved by Parliament and to which I do not think any exception has been taken in recent years. We endeavour to give the local authorities,
    320
    in their day-to-day administration, an adequate measure of discretion. At the same time, if any important differences were shown between the administration in one area and that in another, the Minister could deal with the matter by saying that where a local authority did not take proper action, he would reduce the measure of Government assistance which was being given to that authority. That principle has been accepted by successive Governments of different political complexions, as a general basis and has, I think, worked fairly well on the whole. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman will not feel it necessary to press the Amendment. I can assure the Committee that there is an adequate safeguard in the effective weapon which is in the hands of the Minister and to which I have already referred.
    9.43 p.m.
    Mr. Arthur Greenwood: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman's explanation is not very satisfactory. I do not like these references to a larger measure of discretion for local authorities, because it means larger opportunities for evasion of their duties by reactionary authorities. The whole trend of our local government legislation has been to put greater obligations on local authorities, and to see that those obligations are fulfilled. What the right hon. Gentleman says, in effect, is that if the behaviour of a local authority becomes so scandalous as to compel him to exercise such a power, he can reduce the grant which that authority receives from the State. But that is not what we are asking for in this case. We ask that local authorities shall prepare schemes and that the right hon. Gentleman shall be a party to those schemes, and that he shall approve of them. That is an entirely different matter from his proposal, safeguards or no safeguards. If he is anxious to safeguard the interests of the blind, why should he not keep the power of approving schemes which was conferred upon him by the principal Act. Then there would be an obligation on him to see that these schemes are carried out, but now it appears we are giving the local authorities so much discretion that the right hon. Gentleman does not care a brass farthing about them, until in some case a local authority's treatment of the question becomes a scandal. Then he fines

    321
    that local authority by withholding so much of its grant. That is no alternative to the proposals we put down in the Amendment.
    I thought the Minister would see the reasonableness of our case. To come and tell us that other Acts of Parliament, including the Public Health Act, 1936, allow discretion does not meet our point. It is very rarely that a Minister of the Crown gives up powers that he has enjoyed. They generally look forward to increasing them, and our view is that it would be reasonable in these circum-
    stances for the right hon. Gentleman to keep this intimate touch with schemes of this kind and to give them his blessing if they are good, rather than to fall back on a very second-rate method of exercising control. I hope the Committee will agree with us on this, because the right hon. Gentleman's explanation is so bad that we cannot accept it.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 115; Noes, 203.

    Division No. 42.]

    AYES.

    [9.47 p.m.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Groves, T. E.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Adamson, W. M.

    Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)

    Paling, W.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Parker, J.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Barr, J.

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Price, M. P.

    Batey, J.

    Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Bellenger, F. J.

    Hayday, A.

    Richards, R. (Wrexham)

    Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Ritson, J.

    Broad, F. A.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Bromfield, W.

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    Brown, C. (Mansfield)

    Holdsworth, H.

    Rothschild, J. A. de

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Hollins, A.

    Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

    Buchanan, G.

    Jagger, J.

    Salter, Sir J. Arthur (Oxford U.)

    Burke, W. A.

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Soely, Sir H. M.

    Cape, T.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Sexton, T. M.

    Cassells, T.

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Shinwell, E.

    Charlelon, H. C.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Short, A.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

    Cove, W. G.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Lathan, G.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Daggar, G.

    Lawson, J. J.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Leach, W.

    Stephen, C.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Lee, F.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Leslie, J. R.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth. N.)

    Day, H.

    Logan, D. G.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Lunn, W.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Ede, J. C.

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    MacLaren, A.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Maclean, N.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Foot, D. M.

    Marshall, F.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Gallacher, W.

    Maxton, J.

    Westwood, J.

    Gardner, B. W.

    Messer, F.

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Milner, Major J.

    Williams, T. (Don Valley)

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Montague, F.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Nathan, Colonel H. L.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

    NOES.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Boulton, W. W.

    Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

    Albery, Sir Irving

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

    Brass, Sir W.

    Cox, H. B. Trevor

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

    Craven-Ellis, W.

    Assheton, R.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

    Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

    Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Crooke, J. S.

    Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

    Bull, B. B.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Cross, R. H.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Butcher, H. W.

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Balniel, Lord

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Cutverwell, C. T.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

    Cary, R. A.

    De Chair, S. S

    Beechman, N. A.

    Channon, H.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Dodd, J. S.

    Birchall, Sir J. D.

    Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

    Dugdale, Captain T. L.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    Eastwood, J. F.

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Lindsay, K. M.

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Edmondson, Major Sir J.

    Lipson, D. L.

    Rowlands, G.

    Emery, J. F.

    Lloyd, G. W.

    Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Lottus, P. C.

    Russell, Sir Alexander

    Emrys-Evarts, P. V.

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Entwistle, Sir C. F.

    M'Connell, Sir J.

    Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

    Errington, E.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Salt, E. W.

    Erskine-Hill, A. G.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Fildes, Sir H.

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Sandys, E. D.

    Findlay, Sir E.

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

    Fleming, E. L.

    McKie, J. H.

    Scott, Lord William

    Ganzoni, Sir J.

    Maclay, Hon. J. P.

    Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Macmillan, H. (Stookton-on-Tees)

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

    Magnay, T.

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Goldie, N. B.

    Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

    Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

    Granville E. L.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Somerset, T.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

    Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Spens, W. P.

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Storey, S.

    Hambro, A. V.

    Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

    Strauss, E. A. (Southward, N.)

    Hannah, I. C.

    Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

    Harbord, A.

    Moreing, A. C.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Munro, P.

    Tate, Mavis C,

    Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

    Nall, Sir J.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Hepworth, J.

    Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

    Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

    Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

    Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

    Higgs, W. F.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Turton, R. H.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Owen, Major G.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

    Peake, O.

    Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Peters, Dr. S. J.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

    Petherick, M.

    Wells, S. R.

    Hulbert, N. J.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Pilkington, R.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Raikes, H. V. A. M.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Wise, A. R.

    Keeling, E. H.

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

    Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

    Wragg, H.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

    Lees-Jones, J

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Lieut.-Colonel Kerr and Mr. Furness.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    9.55 p.m.
    Mr. Messer: I beg to move, in page 2, line 2, to leave out "may," and to insert "shall."
    This Amendment is for the purpose of providing that the council shall do certain things, and that it shall not be left to their discretion. The Minister admits in the Bill that where councils were allowed to exercise complete freedom, the provision has not proved altogether a success. The introduction of this Bill is an illustration of the fact that because the county and county borough councils have not done the things that they ought to have done, it is necessary to introduce legislation to make them do those things. I would refer the Committee to Subsection (2). The Bill no longer says that a local authority can draw up a scheme and that it may relieve the dependants of blind people other than by way of poor relief, but it says that they shall do
    324
    what is provided in the Bill. In view of a further Amendment on the Order Paper, I suggest that to make the Bill effective the word "shall" should be substituted for "may," so that we can have the intention of the Minister carried into effect by those entrusted with the task.
    9.57 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: The Amendment has been moved under a misapprehension. The object laid down in the Clause is, first, that it shall be the duty of the council of any county or county borough to make arrangements for promoting the welfare of blind persons. That duty is specifically imposed upon them. The word "may" is used only as a sort of sign post as to what exactly the council shall do in pursuance of the duty which is imposed upon them. It is not an exhaustive definition, but has simply been inserted in order to put beyond

    325
    doubt the fact that the arrangements which the councils must make shall include—[HON. MEMBERS: "It says 'may'."]—the provision and maintenance or the making of contributions towards the provision and maintenance of workshops, etc. The proper reading of the Clause is that it imposes a definite duty upon the councils, and then it says that the things which such a council may do in the performance of that duty shall be so and so. In other words, there is a definite duty imposed upon the council in regard to promoting arrangements for the welfare of the blind, and the rest of the Clause is inserted to put beyond doubt the fact that those arrangements include provision for the maintenance of workshops and contributions towards maintenance, etc. The Minister of Health has ample power to inspect the councils' services under the Blind Persons Act, to make recommendations for improvement and to withhold, where necessary, the block grant. Inasmuch as definite duties are laid upon the councils, the substitution of the word "shall" for the word "may" is not necessary.
    Mr. Messer: The Minister's language is hopeless. The word "shall" in this connection governs the particular thing that the council may do. Anyone who has a certificate for English in an elementary school will admit that there are certain things that a council may do and may not do. There are certain things which in this Bill are permitted, which they shall do if they decide to do them. The Amendment insists that they shall do these things, and that it shall not be left to their discretion. If the Amendment were carried it would mean that the local authorities must do these things.
    Sir K. Wood: Perhaps I have not explained myself sufficiently. What the Clause does is to make it compulsory as a duty upon the councils to make arrangements for promoting the welfare of the blind, and the rest of the Clause indicates the measures by which that shall be done. To make it obligatory upon councils in certain areas to make arrangements for the provision or maintenance of workshops would be out of the question. The hon. Member knows that we could not put that as a definite obligation upon certain parts of the country, because there would not be a sufficient number of blind persons for whom work-
    326
    shop provision should be provided. So far as the duty of making provisions for the welfare of the blind is concerned it is laid down that it shall be done, and the rest of the Clause indicates the method by which it shall be carried out.
    10.3 p.m.
    Mr. Greenwood: The right hon. Gentleman is going from bad to worse. If he had accepted our Amendment making it a duty on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to approve all schemes, he might have put in many of these services for the assistance of blind persons. He has not made the position clear. It is true that the Bill says that it shall be the duty of the council of every county or county borough to make arrangements for promoting the welfare of blind persons, and then the Clause goes on to say that in performance of those duties they are empowered, if they so choose, to make provision for contribution towards the provision and maintenance of workshops, etc. I do not understand legal language. Lawyers may argue about the difference between "may" and "shall," but I have never been able to understand their point. The Bill says clearly that there is a duty on the local authorities to provide for the blind, and it says that in carrying out their duties the councils may, if they care, because they will be empowered by Parliament, do this and that. Our case is that for the welfare of the blind these services should be provided.
    Sir K. Wood: Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not suggest that it should be made obligatory on all local authorities to make provision of workshops, hostels, homes, and so on?
    Mr. Greenwood: We claim that if there is to be adequate provision for the blind, there should be available for all blind persons workshops, hostels, homes, and so on as an essential part of that provision. What the right hon. Gentleman is saying is this, "I am going to wash my hands of my responsibilities in this matter. No schemes in future are to be approved by me; I am going to trust to the local authorities." For 17 years, under the principal Act, local authorities have not come up to the scratch, and now that the right hon. Gentleman has diminished his own powers, instead of compelling them to do the job properly

    327
    and leaving it to their discretion as to how it is to be done, he does not even prescribe the kind of care which is regarded as necessary in the interests of blind persons.
    I think he is making a mistake in this matter. He is putting off one responsibility after another. He has cast the local authorities back on their own responsibility because he has powers of inspection, but a Minister who is not prepared to be courageous enough to approve schemes is not going to use his powers of inspection to any serious effect with the local authorities. I had hoped the right hon. Gentleman would have been reasonable to-night, and I am sorry that we cannot accept his explanation on this Amendment. I do not want to keep taking the Committee to a Division, but I am afraid we must again vote on this issue.
    10.8 p.m.
    Sir Percy Harris: I think the whole thing turns on the word "or." When my right hon. Friend, in his skilful way, read the Clause, he left out the word "or." I agree that with some county authorities there might not be enough blind people to justify the provision of a hostel or a home, but I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman. We know that draftsmen are only human, and the drafting of Clauses is always a very difficult matter. The trouble is that the last words in the first paragraph of Sub-section (1), in lines 8, 9, and 10, rather suggest that the alternative method for a council is to do nothing at all. It says:
    "and any other things the doing of which appears to the council to be desirable."
    If the council desides that it is undesirable to do anything, you may have a local authority shirking its responsibility completely or handing it over to some private company. I think the right hon. Gentleman might make it clear that it is the intention of the Bill that every local authority ought to do its duty.
    10.9 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: I would like to respond to that statement. I think myself there is no difficulty or doubt about this matter. I have gone into it very carefully with the draftsman, and I am advised that the opening part of the Clause, that "it shall be the duty of the council," puts the
    328
    matter beyond doubt. I would like to assure the hon. Gentleman that, so far as the administration of the matter is concerned, I have ample powers to deal with the matter as I think in the most effective way with the local authorities, namely, with the financial weapon, and I can assure him that if there is any doubt in his mind, and if there was any suggestion that any of the local authorities were not in fact carrying out the duty imposed by this Clause in one way or another, I would immediately either send down an inspector or order a local inquiry, and it the local authority was not carrying out its duty, I would deal with it with what in fact is the most effective weapon which a Minister of Health can have, and that is the financial weapon.
    As long as I have the power of saying to a local authority, "You shall do this," that might in the end mean only an application to the court for a mandamus, and the Committee knows that very often that is a futile procedure. The great power which a Minister would have, which I hope he would never have to exercise in connection with this Clause, would be to say, "If you do not carry out your obligations under the Clause, you will not have your proper financial assistance given to you by the Government." My own experience over a good many years is that that is the most effectual weapon that a Minister can have, and that is the weapon which is given to him here. I can assure the Committee, because we all feel the same about the blind people, that if there was any case of that kind, not only I but, I am sure, any successor of mine would unhesitatingly use the very effective power of finance.
    10.11 p.m.
    Mr. Stephen: I am not at all convinced by the last speech of the Minister, because it appears to me that the real way to deal with this matter is to accept the Amendment, and I cannot understand the hesitancy of the right hon. Gentleman in accepting it. It is evident from what has been said in the Committee that there are varying opinions as to what the Clause means. If the Minister sends down an inspector to a district, the local authority there may say that they are carrying out their duty, and if necessary, if the inspector interferes with them, the local authority may go into court to prove

    329
    that they are doing their duty. The local authority, for example, might give a treat once a year for blind people and say that in that way they were carrying out the duty imposed upon them by the Clause. The Minister has pointed out that each of the things mentioned here is not obligatory on the local authority. He said, for example, that in certain cases they would not set up workshops, that you could not expect them to do it, and so he himself admits that each of these things is simply part of a programme of which the local authority may accept one or two items.
    Sir K. Wood Sir K. Wood indicated dissent.
    Mr. Stephen: The Minister need not shake his head to my statement in that respect, because he nodded his head in approval before.
    Sir K. Wood: That depends on whether in fact they have carried out their duties under this Clause, because if he does not think so, he can withhold payment.
    Mr. Stephen: Where does the Minister get this idea that he has this godlike authority in connection with the matter? I know there have been such statements in this House repeatedly in connection with legislation, and afterwards we have found that the Minister was simply talking out of his hat and that he had not any such powers at all.
    Sir K. Wood: Section 104 of the Local Government Act, 1925.
    Mr. Stephen: Will the right hon. Gentleman read it out to the House?
    Sir K. Wood: No, I will not.
    Mr. Stephen: If he will look again at that Section of the Local Government Act he will find that it does not apply to this particular case at all, and I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to show how it gives him power under this Measure. It is preposterous for the Minister to get up and make such a statement without giving the words and showing how they apply. This is simply another case in which the Minister is trying to mislead the Committee, and I do not think that it is worthy of him, however characteristic it may be, to try to mislead the Committee in this way. The Minister may think that he has these powers and he may quote this Section of the Act, but if the word
    330
    "shall" is put in instead of the word "may" there will be no doubt about it. The powers will be there, and the local authority will know what duties are really being imposed upon them.
    I would ask the Minister not to be so obstinate in pursuing this policy. I believe that a great deal of his previous success has been due to his art of conciliation, but since he became involved in these birth-control statistics there seems to be some obstruction in his mentality which is making him far less efficient and capable than previously. The instance that I have given and the way in which the local authorities have so often in the past shied at carrying out duties imposed upon them by this House because it might mean something additional on the rates, are the real reasons why there should be no doubt about the matter whatever. I hope that the Minister will reconsider the position, and, if he does not accept the position, that the Committee will go into the Lobby and try to get for the blind people what obviously Members on all sides of the Committee intend that they should have.
    10.18 p.m.
    Mr. Benjamin Smith: On this side of the Committee as well as in the mind of the Minister there seems to be some dubiety as to the real meaning of the Clause. The Minister claims to have power under some other Act, but it is the present Bill with which we are dealing. As I understand the meaning of the word "shall," it is mandatory, and "may" is permissive. If the right hon. Gentleman says that it may not be necessary in certain county areas to do the things done under the Clause, surely, he can meet us on the Report stage of the Bill by saying "shall where necessary." That would get over the whole difficulty. "May" is a permissive thing. Somebody will decide whether it is necessary to have workshops or to do all the things within the Clause or not. It would set the mind of every well-wisher of the blind at rest to know the real intention of the Government, and, if there is a desire to meet the wishes and the sentiments of the people for whom the Bill is intended, the Minister might well give us the words "shall where necessary."
    10.19 p.m.
    Mr. Mander: It was not possible for me to be here to move the Amendment which I have put down and I apologise

    331
    for being absent, but perhaps I may explain the circumstances in which this Amendment and other Amendments were put down. When the Bill was introduced, I asked the representatives of the blind in Wolverhampton whether they had any Amendments which they desired to see incorporated in the Bill, and these proposals were the result. These people, while they are the best in the world, are simple folk, and when they see the word "may" they think it means "may." They may be quite wrong. No doubt they are entirely misinformed, but they would be more satisfied if instead of being referred to some other Act of Parliament which they do not understand the plain English word "shall" was put in. I hope the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the feeling of the Committee, will agree to accept the Amendment.
    10.21 p.m.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: I know blind shops which have been subsidised by the county council in the past and I should like to know whether they will come under the direct control of the county council in the future. If they do not and they are to be subsidised—
    The Deputy-Chairman: That point arises on the next Amendment which deals with contributions towards maintenance.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: I want something definite from the Minister on the point.
    The Deputy-Chairman: That is a point upon which the Minister ought not to give an answer on this Amendment. If the hon. Member raises it on the next Amendment it will be in order.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: I understand that if the word "may" is interpreted as meaning "shall" these county authorities will have the obligation of taking over these blind shops.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The point of the hon. Member is whether they shall make a contribution. That is raised on the next Amendment.
    Mr. Buchanan: Is it the word "may" or the word "shall"?
    Sir K. Wood: The word is "may." The first part of the Clause imposes on the council the duty that they shall make arrangements for promoting the welfare of
    332
    the blind and the rest of the Clause indicates the way in which they may perform this duty.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: Are we to understand that the Minister has power to penalise an authority which is not doing its duty? How is he to know whether a council is or is not doing its duty?
    Sir K. Wood: By inspection and inquiry.
    Mr. W. H. Green: Will the Minister tell us how it is, if he has these powers to compel local authorities to carry out their duties in this matter, there are some 40 authorities which have not prepared schemes under the 1920 Act?
    Sir K. Wood: In that particular case local authorities were given discretion. Under the Clause we are discussing it is mandatory upon them to make arrangements for the welfare of the blind, and the rest of the Clause is the method by which they may carry that out. I shall have full power under the Local Government Act, 1929.
    Mr. Greenwood: If a number of authorities have not for 17 years exercised their powers and they are not to be required to fulfil certain definite obligations, what likelihood is there of their carrying out these powers which they may not use, and which they are not required to use?
    10.25 p.m.
    Mr. Stephen: Is it not the case that it is still within the discretion of the local authority to decide upon the way in which it will do something for the benefit of the blind? For example, one local authority may say that it cannot run a workshop for the blind, but that it will exercise its discretion and do something else. Consequently, when it is discretionary on the part of a local authority to choose the particular method by which it will take care of the blind, how can the Minister say that he has power to interfere with the discretion given to the local authorities in that respect?
    10.26 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: The answer is very simple. One could not impose, under the Bill, the duty upon all local authorities to provide workshops for the blind. What is absolutely obligatory upon them is their duty to make provision for the welfare of the blind, and this Clause indicates methods by which that can be done. It

    333
    is true that under our system of local Government a great measure of discretion as to how that duty should be fulfilled is left to the local authorities. That is our democratic system. But it is also left to the Minister to see that the duty imposed upon the local authorities is adequately fulfilled by one method or another. The Minister does that either by means of a local inquiry or by sending his inspectors to look into any complaint that is made. I may observe that instances have been given to-night in that respect. If I get a complaint that adequate provision is not being made for the welfare of the blind, I will either send down an inspector or order a local inquiry. If in any case it is found that the local authority is not carrying out its duties, the Minister has the most effective weapon, which is to withhold financial assistance until the local authority does its duty. That is the only effective weapon which we have in a democracy for dealing with local authorities who do not carry out their duties. A mandatory power, although it may in fact be laid down in an Act of Parliament, is a very useless weapon when one tries to impose it. The best weapon is the one that resides in the Local Government Act.
    10.28 p.m.
    Mr. Stephen: The Minister still admits that there is that discretion. The duty is laid upon the local authorities to do something to provide for the welfare of the blind. For instance, if a local authority decides that its way of providing for the welfare of the blind shall be to give an annual treat for the blind in its area, that is within its discretion. The Minister must admit that that is the case. The local authorities have, in the first place, to provide for the welfare of the blind. Having decided the method by which they will do so, it is within the power of the Minister to see that they carry out that method satisfactorily. It is within their discretion to choose the method, and all that will be within the power of the Minister will be, in the particular case to which I have referred, to see whether they run the tea-fight successfully or not.
    Sir K. Wood Sir K. Wood indicated dissent.
    Mr. Stephen: The right hon. Gentleman does not agree, but he admitted that the discretion was given to the local authority. He said that it was a great prin-
    334
    ciple of democracy to give this discretion to the local authorities to choose the means by which they will provide for the welfare of the blind in their localities. I hope the Committee will be seized of the fact that the Minister accepts that statement. The local authority will have full right to decide the method of providing for the welfare of the blind. In one area the local authority may decide that the blind people are comfortably off because of the general conditions, or because of a bequest that was left by Mr. A. or Mr. B. in the past; and that all that is necessary to be done for them is a little social gathering once a year. All the power that the Minister is taking is to send an inspector down to see that the social is carried out all right and that a sufficient number of buns are given to each of the blind persons. I do not think that is what the Minister intends, but that is what he is doing in the Bill if the word "may" is allowed to remain. He has to take precautions against the fact that in many parts of the country there are reactionary local authorities and authorities which are so afraid of a halfpenny on the rates that they will not carry out this duty in the way in which Parliament intends it to be carried out. I hope that the local authorities will be put into the position that they must take material steps to provide for the welfare of the blind.
    10.32 p.m.
    Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croft: May I suggest that, whatever the desire of the Committee may be, this Amendment would make the Bill ridiculous? We are being invited to compel local authorities to initiate certain schemes, such as workshops and hostels, in areas where they would be unnecessary. "The welfare of the blind" surely does not indicate that it is the provision of free meals or of buns, as the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) suggests; but if we insert the word "shall" it will surely demand the institution of certain machinery for alleviating the lot of the blind which in many parts of the country would be impossible.
    10.34 p.m.
    Mr. Ede: In order to understand what the Minister was advising us, I have taken the trouble to look up Section 104 of the Local Government Act, 1929. I cannot follow from reading it how he thinks his position will be stronger in

    335
    future than it is at present. If his position in future is not going to be stronger than it is now, I do not see the relevance of bringing Section 104 into discussion. It says:
    "The Minister may reduce the grant payable in respect of any year under this Part of this Act to any council by such amount as he thinks just, if—

    (a) he is satisfied, either upon representations made to him by any association or other body of persons experienced or interested in matters relating to public health or without any such representations that the council have failed to achieve or maintain a reasonable standard of efficiency and progress in the discharge of their functions relating to public health services."

    and so on. It is news to me that the functions we are discussing are compulsory. These functions are matters about which a council may exercise permissive powers, and at the moment they can all do these things within their discretion. The Minister's position under Section 104 will not be improved in the slightest by the form of words suggested. He could now descend upon any local authorities whom he regards as being in default,
    "regard being had to the standards maintained in other areas whose financial resources and other relevant circumstances are substantially similar, and that the health or welfare of the inhabitants of the area of the council or some of them has been or is likely to be thereby endangered."
    He has all those powers at the moment. Has he exercised the power in respect of blind persons? Has he carried out the provision:
    "Provided that, whenever the Minister makes such a reduction, he shall make and cause to be laid before Parliament a report stating the amount of the reduction, and the reasons therefor."
    Is it likely, if this remains permissive, that he will be in any stronger position than now?
    In regard to what the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) said, I really do not think he can have
    read the Clause or the Bill. It was an eloquent speech about some other Clause. It is stated that the local authorities
    "in the performance of their said duty shall include the provision and maintenance, or the making of contributions towards the provision and maintenance."
    It is news to me as a member of a county council which covers a considerable amount of urban area and a substantial amount of rural territory as well, that there is any great difference in the incidence of blindness when the same doctor is making the ascertainment. I admit there is a considerable difference between area and area where different doctors make the ascertainment, because a good deal depends upon the skill and the personal opinion of the person making the ascertainment. If there is some rural county or small county borough which could not reasonably be asked to maintain an institution of its own, that is no reason why the blind persons there should not receive that form of institutional assistance if it is appropriate for them.
    If the air of Bournemouth is such that there are not many blind persons there—I do not mean politically blind, because the hon. and gallant Member has carried out an ascertainment there which speaks volumes for the amount of political blindness—the appropriate thing for Bournemouth to do is to enter into an arrangement either with other county boroughs in Hampshire or with the Hampshire County Council whereby Bournemouth cases can be admitted to their institutions. I suggest to the Minister that the passing of this Clause will not strengthen his position in any way unless the Amendment is accepted. Unless he accepts it I do not think he will be able to prove in future that the local authorities are more in default than they are at the moment, and I sincerely hope that he will accept the Amendment.
    Question put, "That the word 'may' stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 122.

    Division No. 43.]

    AYES.

    [10.40 p.m.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

    Bracken, B.

    Albery, Sir Irving

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)

    Beechman, N. A.

    Brass, Sir W.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Assheton, R.

    Birchall, Sir J. D.

    Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

    Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

    Bird, Sir R. B.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Bossom, A. C.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Balniel, Lord

    Boulton, W. W.

    Bull, B. B.

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Raikes, H. V. A. M.

    Burghley, Lord

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Butcher, H. W.

    Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Hepworth, J.

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Reid, Sir D. O. (Down)

    Cary, R. A.

    Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

    Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)

    Channon, H.

    Higgs, W. F.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Holmes, J. S.

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hulbert, N. J.

    Rowlands, G.

    Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

    Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

    Keeling, E. H.

    Russell, Sir Alexander

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Cox, H. B. Trevor

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

    Salmon, Sir I.

    Craven-Ellis, W.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Salt, E. W.

    Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

    Lees-Jones, J.

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Crooke, J. S.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

    Scott, Lord William

    Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Selley, H. R.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Lipson, D. L.

    Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

    Cross, R. H.

    Loftus, P. C.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Culverwell, C. T.

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    M'Connell, Sir J.

    Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    De Chair, S. S.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

    Somerset, T.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Denville, Alfred

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

    Dodd, J. S.

    McKie, J. H.

    Spens, W. P.

    Dugdale, Captain T. L.

    Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Duggan, H. J.

    Magnay, T.

    Storey, S.

    Eastwood, J. F.

    Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Edmondson, Major Sir J.

    Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

    Elliston, Capt. G. S.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Emery, J. F.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworlh)

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Entwistle, Sir C. F.

    Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

    Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

    Errington, E.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Erskine-Hill, A. G.

    Moreing, A. C.

    Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

    Everard, W. L.

    Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

    Turton, R. H.

    Fildes, Sir H.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Findlay, Sir E.

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

    Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

    Fleming, E. L.

    Munro, P.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Furness, S. N.

    Nall, Sir J.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Ganzoni, Sir J.

    Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

    Wells, S. R.

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

    Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

    Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

    Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

    Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

    Goldie, N. B.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Peake, O.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Peat, C. U.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    Peters, Dr. S. J.

    Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Petherick, M.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Hambro, A. V.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Wragg, H.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Pilkington, R.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Harbord, A.

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Captain Hope and Mr. Grimston.

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Radford, E. A.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Cove, W. G.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbre, W.)

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Adamson, W. M.

    Daggar, G.

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Groves, T. E.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N)

    Barr, J.

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Batey, J.

    Day, H.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Bellenger, F. J.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

    Ede, J. C.

    Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

    Broad, F. A.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Hayday, A.

    Bromfield, W.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Brown, C. (Mansfield)

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Foot, D. M.

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Buchanan, G.

    Gallacher, W.

    Holdsworth, H.

    Burke, W. A.

    Gardner, B. W.

    Hollins, A.

    Cape, T.

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Jagger, J.

    Cassells, T.

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    338

    339

    Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Montague, F.

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Nathan, Colonel H. L.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Kirby, B. V.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Stephen, C.

    Lathan, G.

    Owen, Major G.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Lawson, J. J.

    Paling, W.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Leach, W.

    Parker, J.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Lee, F.

    Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Leonard, W.

    Price, M. P.

    Viant, S. P.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Logan, D. G.

    Richards, R. (Wrexham)

    Watkins, F. C.

    Lunn, W.

    Riley, B.

    Watson, W. McL.

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Ritson, J.

    Welsh, J. C.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Westwood, J.

    MacLaren, A.

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Maclay, Hon. J. P.

    Rothschild, J. A. de

    Williams, T. (Don Valley)

    Maclean, N.

    Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Mander, G. le M.

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Marshall, F.

    Sexton, T. M.

    Maxton, J.

    Shinwell, E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Messer, F.

    Short, A.

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

    Milner, Major J.

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

    10.49 p.m.
    Mr. Jagger: I beg to move, in page 2, line 4, to leave out from "maintenance," to "of," in line 6.
    This is a point to which we attach very great importance, although it is one that can be stated quite briefly, and I am sure the Minister will be glad to find that there is no dubiety about our use of the English language in stating it. Our object is to prevent local authorities from salving what consciences they have by making contributions to voluntary organisations with no guarantee whatever that that adequate treatment which the Bill is supposed to provide for the blind will, in fact, be provided by those voluntary organisations. Though some improvement has been made, it is not wise that a local authority should be allowed to think that it has carried out the provisions of the Bill because it has made a contribution to some voluntary organisation which may actually be sweating blind persons in the most abominable way. We want to make sure that what we know has gone on goes on no longer, and by dropping out these lines we believe we should very greatly increase the chances of blind persons being adequately provided for.
    10.52 p.m.
    Mr. Leslie: I have a very vivid recollection of a certain institute for the blind mainly supported by contributions from workers in different firms. The conditions were so bad that the workers refused to contribute any longer through that medium and decided that they would contribute to the trades council only on condition that it secured representation on the board of directors. After they secured
    340
    representation they certainly altered the conditions. Some private concerns may be good and may act justly towards the blind but, after all, a local authority should do its own work and not farm it out to a private concern. The care of the blind is something that ratepayers are now in full sympathy with, and it is best that a local authority should retain full control and not delegate its duties to an outside body. The Minister has pointed out that certain rural councils would be unable to set up local workshops, but is there anything to prevent them doing as they do now with respect to the schooling of defective children and with respect to hospital accommodation? Surely those two cases are an illustration of what can be done if they are in earnest over the matter.
    10.54 p.m.
    Mr. James Hall: I believe that the deletion of these words would mean that all workshops would have to be controlled and carried on by the county councils or the county borough councils, and no longer would charitable organisations be allowed to dominate the lives of the blind people who are endeavouring to work for their living. I believe that that would lead to a more equitable arrangement for the blind workers and would produce more satisfactory conditions than exist at the moment. I have had some correspondence with societies in London which employ blind people and it has left in my mind the opinion that they are only governed by the consideration that the workers should be economic assets to them rather than that the blind persons should have an opportunity of filling in a gap in the economic life of the country. The

    341
    committees of many of these societies are composed of business men who look at the situation from a business standpoint, who find it difficult to break away from the ordinary mentality and the ordinary outlook and treat blind persons in the same way as they would treat sighted persons.
    In my opinion if county councils and county borough councils were responsible for the supervision, they would introduce a certain number of people who would have sympathetic consideration for the difficulties under which sightless people labour. The farming-out of these responsibilities by the councils is unfair and unsatisfactory. If public funds are to be used for blind people, we should have an assurance that those blind people will be dealt with sympathetically and that something will be done to lighten the burden of their pitiful disability. But the delegation of authority to other bodies is, as I say, very unfair. If the blind worker oversteps the borderline of the regulations and the stern discipline enforced by various charitable organisations, he or she suffers as badly as if not worse than the sighted workers in other walks of life.
    I give two cases. One concerns a blind woman worker who, about a year ago, was responsible one afternoon for getting a number of the blind workers to sing. Because she was responsible for that attempt to lighten the monotony of a frightfully monotonous life, she was suspended, and after a month was dismissed. I have been fighting her case for a year. The society decided that not again would they allow her to work on their premises. I was instrumental in getting her work at her own home, but after six months that work was cut down to three days a week and recently she was dismissed. I informed the society in my last letter that I intended to quote the case here and they gave the woman employment. Had it been necessary to discover a reason for this woman's unfair treatment, I think they themselves have supplied that reason.
    The other case is that of a blind man employed by a different society to go from house to house canvassing for boot and shoe repairs. He did that work for some months. Then his round was divided and a partly sighted man was given part of it. The secretary said this
    342
    was in order to cause him to work more intensively. True, the man succeeded in working more intensively and was able to prove to an official of the London County Council that during 15 months he had obtained 196 new customers. But at the end of that 15 months he was dismissed because the society said he was not then an economic agency. The fact was that the man, having lost half his round, was not able to produce as much weekly as he produced when he was doing the whole round. I contend that the system generally carried out by these societies is to endeavour to get profit from the efforts of the blind workers and to regard that as the only consideration.
    Blind workers live and work under a very heavy handicap, and if public funds are to be used for their support we ought to see that the money is used in such a way that something is done to lighten their burdens. I am convinced that this Amendment, paving the way, as it would, for this to be accomplished under the jurisdiction and control of the councils, would ensure for the blind persons a very much better deal than they are getting.
    11.1 p.m.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: In discussing a matter of this kind, we are obliged to bring to bear our local knowledge of what is happening. The sources of charitable organisations are drying up very much. We experience that in Glamorganshire, Monmouthshire and other counties in South Wales, and the managements of workshops and other institutions are obliged to seek grants in aid from local authorities. If the workshops, particularly at Pontypridd and the Rhondda Valley, were not subsidised by the Monmouthshire County Council, they would quickly go out of existence. It seems rather anomalous that under the Education Act blind children can be taught and trained right through adolescence, and, after having been trained, they have to be thrown upon the open market. They have to be taken over in many cases by workshop committees that depend entirely upon patronage. The children who are taught in blind schools ought, as a natural sequence, to go into public institutions, and I suggest that we would be able to remove the precarious outlook that confronts blind persons from time to time if that were done.

    343
    It is really absurd that we should go to the expense—a very heavy expenditure per person—of teaching those children in blind schools and after they have been taught—at Bridgend for instance—and brought to the stage of adolescence, they should be thrown on the open market. If the workshops were brought under the jurisdiction of the county council, those children would automatically go to these workshops and the local authorities could provide a ready market, through their various committees, for the products of their labour. By providing organisation, security could be given to the blind. I suggest to the Minister and his advisers that a new orientation is needed and a new kind of organisation. We could give security for blind persons if the workshops came under the jurisdiction of the local authorities.
    11.5 p.m.
    Mr. Edmund Harvey: Some of the arguments that have been used in support of this Amendment show that blindness is more widespread than many of us thought. Hon. Members who have supported the Amendment, in their zeal for municipal activity have entirely forgotten that all voluntary institutions for the blind are not of the character of the particular institutions that have been pilloried before the Committee this evening I can think of one such institution where generations of voluntary service have been given not by hard-hearted business men who have had no thought or care for the welfare of the blind, but by citizens drawn from different classes of the community, giving of their leisure and service for the welfare of the blind.
    It would be deplorable if the local authority were not allowed, where conditions were suitable, to make a contribution to institutions of that character. I can think of one institution where, very rightly, the local authority is represented on the managing committee of the institution. That is the right combination. You have the interest of the local authority and the constant supervision of the local authority, together with the cooperation of voluntary efforts, and the result is entirely satisfactory. It would be a great loss to the community if local authorities were not allowed, where conditions are suitable, to contribute to institutions for the blind.
    11.8 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: I support the Amendment as one who has had some experience of the administration of a blind asylum. I should like very much to have an opportunity of investigating the institution to which the hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Harvey) referred, not from the point of view of business men on the board but from the point of view of the blind people in the institution. In the factories we subscribed a very large amount for a certain institution in the belief that the money we subscribed would go to help our blind brothers and sisters. We heard a great deal of talk about the kind people who administered the institution, but I visited the institution and found that the blind workers there were getting a wage that would not keep body and soul together. Most wretched conditions were enforced upon them.
    When we raised with the board the question of an increase of wages, the superintendent was brought in to read out facts and figures in regard to the financial condition of the institution, which showed that there was no money to provide wages for the blind workers. Blind men and women and even persons who were deaf-mutes as well as being blind, were getting a few shillings a week. We forced an increase of wages for those blind workers. What about the rigid economists who governed the institution? The superintendent had £950 a year and he had an assistant superintendent with £400 a year. The superintendent had also a patent for a spring bed and received royalties on it. We pressed for and carried through the dismissal of the superintendent and the assistant superintendent.
    That is what occurs with hard-headed business men on the board, all of them claiming to know about business and supposed to be interested in the blind—a superintendent with over £900 a year and an assistant superintendent with over £400 a year. We forced their dismissals and applied for a new superintendent at £500 a year. The superintendent who had been drawing £950 applied for the job, and when he came before us I said to him, "It is essential that in this institution there should be the best understanding between the administration and the superintendent. It would be very bad if there was any feeling that an injustice

    345
    was being done. Will you be satisfied, if you are appointed at £500 a year, that you are being fairly treated?" "Yes," he replied, and he had been drawing over £900 a year for years, and the blind workers could not get a living. I have never found anywhere, wherever I have gone—and I have travelled all over the country and met blind people in all parts of the country—blind workers who are getting the fair deal that they ought to get. The old superintendent in the case I have mentioned did not get the job. His assistant came in, and we asked him whether he was satisfied that he could do the job himself. He told me, "Mr. Gallacher, I am doing the job all the time." This was an institution run by hard-headed business men, more concerned with business than they were with the blind people. So I want to appeal to the Minister not to take any risk whatever of the blind people being taken advantage of.
    What has been said by the hon. Member on my right can be told of case after case in every part of the country, I do not care what institution you go to that is under the administration of hard-headed business men. You will find that if you go into the factories or institutions, the blind workers are afraid to say a word and afraid to do anything, and we do not want that. Surely if we have an institution or a factory of this sort, we should encourage the blind workers to sing. I had a job once, and I began to sing at my work. I was at once told to stop singing. In factories where the blind are, we should encourage them to sing. I appeal to the Minister, as one who has had associations with blind people all over the country, to accept the Amendment and ensure that every penny of public money that is spent is spent in such a way that the local authorities will have control of the institutions and see to it that the blind workers are given a better chance than they have been given before.
    11.14 p.m.
    Mr. Messer: I wonder whether those who have contributed to the Debate on this Amendment realise that this is in fact the smallest part of the problem. Out of the 76,000 blind people, only 22 per cent. are employable. The argument that will be used against the Amendment
    346
    will be that you cannot expect a local authority to set up a workshop for the small number of blind people for whom a local authority is responsible. If we take a big county such as Middlesex, the county about which I know most, there are 2,033 registered blind people, out of whom 1,655 are unemployable. Is it reasonable to ask that the Middlesex County Council should build workshops for the purpose of employing 378 men?
    The Minister obviously will put that point and will say that it is neither economic nor a wise administrative thing to do. But what is the position at the present time? The blind people who are trainable or who are employable are working in a workshop or factory where there are blind people drawn from neighbouring administrative bodies. There is no greater difficulty in setting up some ad hoc authority, such as the Metropolitan Asylums Board or the Metropolitan Water Board, that would be responsible. The hon. Member on my left has already said that these people are doing the job so well, why should we want to interfere with them? The truth is that they are not doing the job well. The Minister in his own report stated very clearly and definitely—and nobody will dispute it—that you cannot train blind people so that they can compete with sighted people in the labour market, and it is with very few exceptions that they can even earn a living, these few exceptions being some basket makers, mat makers and pianoforte tuners. But in the main blind people working cannot keep themselves, so that the public authorities have to subsidise the workshops for the blind.
    There was a time when they were voluntary workshops, and they were able, as a result of the generosity of the public, to train blind people and to keep them employed, even though they sold the goods that were made at lower than cost. They cannot do it because of the sociological fact that we are revolving and getting away from private charity, which fails to meet the needs of the people. It is a biological and sociological fact that so soon as a thing is not required, so soon does it begin to die. The lack of necessity presupposes its end, and private charities cannot possibly maintain at the present time the work that they were doing without a subsidy from public funds. Why should we subsidise private associations

    347
    without the right of deciding who the officers shall be? Officers are appointed by the committee and we send people to be trained and to be employed, and subsidise the association as well. We find that very often after they have been trained there is need for refresher courses, because refresher courses bring with them additional fees. Recognising that they are not an economic proposition, we should realise the real function of finding work for blind people. It ought not to be to enable them to keep themselves. Let us be frank about it. We say that the blind do not want charity but want to be in a position of independence.
    Let us make that position of independence one which is based upon a State pension, and build up on that a superstructure so that they can earn something to add to what they are receiving. The real function of the work should be in the value that the work is to the individual. It should be the provision of a real healing power to co-ordinate the use of one's mind and hands, and the object of the employment of the blind should be to develop character in blind persons and give them some joy in the creative instinct that they possess. If we look at the problem in that way, it can not only be done equally as well, but even better by the local authority.
    In institutions where blind people are working they are speeding up as though it really mattered. They will never, in any circumstances, be able to work so hard and so fast as to compete in the market of the country. Even piecework is a thing which sighted people have organised to kill in these blind workshops. I am not saying it is always the case, but it should be an important point that the pathological advantage that can be gained should receive attention. In Green-wick and London there are blind people who are working at the soul-destroying job of polishing knitting needles, which does them more harm than good, and certainly does not improve their mental capacity or which improves their creative instincts. As these charitable institutions are failing to maintain their position as more and more larger and larger sums of public money have to be paid to keep them going, so there should be a greater measure of control, that we should undertake our responsibilities and conduct them in the interests of the people
    348
    for whom they were originally intended. I hope the right hon. Gentleman is not going to tell us that it is impossible to do this because of the cost. I have tried to show that it is possible for local authorities to join together to get over that difficulty. The Swiss Cottage Middlesex Association for the Teaching of the Blind have people from many areas outside London and have decided that it is time to acquire fresh premises. They have approached the Middlesex County Council for a grant. Why cannot we provide this for ourselves rather than give our responsibilities to irresponsible charities?
    11.23 p.m.
    Mr. Mander: Everyone appreciates the immense services rendered by charitably minded people in connection with the blind; but the time has now arrived when the State should intervene and undertake the responsibility. I hope there will always be this spirit of charity to assist the blind, but I think the Amendment is a wise proposal and that the responsibility ought to be thrown upon the local authority. The thing which influences me is what the blind think about it themselves. My information is that from the point of view of self respect, they would feel in a much more satisfactory position if they were under the State than dependent on charity. It may be that one would regret the passing of the old system, but it is passing and I think we should face it. For that reason I support the Amendment.
    11.25 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: I do not think I need say much about the Amendment because there is a clear cut division between hon. Members opposite and the contents of the Bill. I have discussed this issue many times with hon. Members opposite. When we were debating the provisions for the midwifery services in this country and hon. Members opposite endeavoured to limit the scope of the services to municipalities and to cut out the voluntary organisations, I resisted their attempts, as I do to-night, on the ground that I feel that in this country we can have the advantages of both systems. That combination was very good in the case of the midwives, and in this Bill I believe it will be good for the welfare of the blind.
    I will state simply what the Amendment would mean if it were accepted. It

    349
    would deprive the local authorities of their existing powers to make arrangements with the voluntary agencies under which workshops, hostels, homes, etc., are provided and managed by those voluntary agencies. It is entirely for the local authorities themselves to decide whether they will make arrangements with those voluntary agencies, and of course, it is a matter for the local authorities themselves to see that they make proper arrangements with them. If there were complaints as to the conduct of the voluntary agencies, one would have thought that the local authorities themselves would have put the matter in order. If the local authorities can be entrusted with the whole supervision of this service, one would have thought that they could equally be trusted to carry out their duties by making reasonable and proper arrangements with the voluntary organisations.
    Mr. Buchanan: Are there any districts where they have cut out the voluntary organisations?
    Sir K. Wood: I do not think so. I would like to testify that, as far as my own experience is concerned, just as there are bad municipalities, no doubt there may be inadequate and unsatisfactory voluntary organisations. But I think that there has been a very successful combination of the municipalities and voluntary organisations, and it is that which this Bill seeks to preserve. It is because we want to preserve that combination, and to retain what I think are the excellent services, on the whole, of the great voluntary organisations for the blind, that I resist the Amendment.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 203; Noes, 101.

    Division No. 44.]

    AYES.

    [11.29 p.m.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Crooke, J. S.

    Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

    Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

    Albery, Sir Irving

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Hepworth, J.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

    Cross, R. H.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Higgs, W. F.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Culverwell, C. T.

    Holdsworth, H.

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Holmes, J. S.

    Assheton, R.

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    Hulbert, N. J.

    Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

    De Chair, S. S.

    James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

    Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

    Donville, Alfred

    Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Dodd, J. S.

    Keeling, E. H.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Dugdale, Captain T. L.

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Balniel, Lord

    Duggan, H. J.

    Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Eastwood, J. F.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portstn'h)

    Edmondson, Major Sir J.

    Lees-Jones, J.

    Beechman, N. A.

    Elliston, Capt. G. S.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Emery, J. F.

    Lipson, O. L,

    Bird, Sir R. B.

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Lloyd, G. W.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Loftus, P. C.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Entwistle, Sir C. F.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Errington, E.

    M'Connell, Sir J.

    Bracken, B.

    Erskine-Hill, A. G.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Everard, W. L.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

    Brass, Sir W.

    Findlay, Sir E.

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Fleming, E. L.

    McKie, J. H.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

    Foot, D. M.

    Maclay, Hon. J. P.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Fremantle, Sir F. E.

    Magnay, T.

    Bull, B. B.

    Furness, S. N.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Ganzoni, Sir J.

    Markham, S. F.

    Burghley, Lord

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

    Butcher, H. W.

    Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Campbell, Sir E. T,

    Goldie, N. B.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Channon, H.

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

    Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstaad)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Moreing, A. C.

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

    Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Munro, P.

    Conant, Captain R. J. E.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Nall, Sir J.

    Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Harbord, A.

    Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

    Cox, H. B. Trevor

    Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)

    Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Craven-Ellis, W.

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Peake, O.

    Peat, C. U.

    Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Salmon, Sir I.

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Peters, Dr. S. J.

    Salt, E. W.

    Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

    Petherick, M.

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Scott, Lord William

    Turton, R. H.

    Pilkington, R.

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

    Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Radford, E. A.

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Wells, S. R.

    Rankin, Sir R.

    Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

    Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Somerset, T.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Somervell. Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Reid, J. S. C (Hillhead)

    Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

    Wood, Hon. C. I. C.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Spens, W. P.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Wragg, H.

    Rothschild, J. A. de

    Storey, S.

    Rowlands, G.

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Royds, Admiral P. M. R.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Captain Hope and Lieut.-Colonel Kerr.

    Russell, Sir Alexander

    Stuart, Hon. J, (Moray and Nairn)

    NOES.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Groves, T. E.

    Paling, W.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Parker, J.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Barr, J.

    Hayday, A.

    Price, M. P.

    Bellenger, F. J.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Richards, R. (Wrexham)

    Broad, F. A.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Riley, B.

    Bromfield, W.

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Ritson, J.

    Brown, C. (Mansfield)

    Hollins, A.

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Jagger, J.

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    Buchanan, G.

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Sexton, T. M.

    Burke, W. A.

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Shinwell, E.

    Cape, T.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Cassells, T.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lathan, G.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Lawson, J. J.

    Stephen, C.

    Daggar, G.

    Leach, W.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Lee, F.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Leonard, W.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Leslie, J. R.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Day, H.

    Logan, D. G.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Lunn, W.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Ede, J. C.

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    MacLaren, A.

    Westwood, J.

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Mander, G. le M.

    Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

    Gallacher, W.

    Marshall, F.

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Gardner, B. W.

    Mathers, G.

    Williams, T. (Don Valley)

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Maxton, J.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Messer, F.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Milner, Major J.

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Mr. Adamson and Mr. Anderson.

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

    11.37 p.m.
    Mr. Greenwood: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
    I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman how far he proposes to go to-night. When I put a question about business this afternoon it was understood that the Air-Raid Precautions Bill would be finished about 7.30 or 8 o'clock, but owing to some very long speeches—not from this side—the discussion was protracted. The position in which we find ourselves now is that we have disposed of one or two Amendments on this Bill. The next Amendment is one of considerable substance and import-
    352
    ance. I do not mind sitting here for a long time, but I am not sure that that would be for the convenience of hon. Members, and I wondered whether the right hon. Gentleman would agree to make provision for us to continue this Committee stage on some other occasion when We might have better opportunities than we have to-night to complete the Committee stage.
    11.39 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: My only desire, which, I am sure, is shared by the blind people of this country, is to get the Bill. As hon. Members know, I am prepared to meet their difficulties in any way that is

    353
    possible; but it would be a thousand pities if, in the interests of the blind, it were not possible to get the Bill through these stages before we rise for Christmas. I have spoken to my right hon. and gallant Friend the Patronage Secretary. It might be for the convenience of hon. Members to take this Bill on another night, but owing to the business I am afraid it will have to be late—it will have to be after 11 o'clock. I am prepared to do what I can for the convenience of the Committee, but there is great pressure of business, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. I do not belittle the importance of the Amendments, but on the Second Reading of the Bill hon. Members in all parts were agreed that, apart from certain criticisms of various provisions of the Bill, they would do all they could in the interest of blind persons to get the Bill on the Statute Book at an early date. If the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to sit another night a little late arranged through the usual channels, I should have no personal views on the matter. If I could secure from him and from hon. Gentlemen opposite an understanding to this effect, I should have nothing further to say.
    11.41 p.m.
    Mr. Greenwood: We were under the impression that the Air-Raid Precautions Bill would get its Third Reading much earlier than happened, and the Committee have been deprived of an hour and a half of discussion. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we said on Second Reading that we should like to see the Measure on the Statute Book, but the Committee have been deprived of their opportunity largely because the earlier Order took much longer than was expected. Had I thought that the Air-Raid Precautions Bill would go so late I would have entered my caveat earlier against the Committee sitting late. If some reasonable agreement is possible in this matter, it might be for the convenience of the Committee if we rose now. After further discussion we could arrange some time when the Bill could be re-discussed.
    11.42 p.m.
    Mr. Buchanan: I cordially agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). When the Prime Minister announced that this discussion would come on at about 7.30
    354
    or 8 o'Clock, nobody could complain about the position of the Air-Raid Precautions Bill, but this was delayed because of long speeches from hon. Members on the other side. The outstanding Amendments are not so important that a night cannot be arranged in which to take them after 8 o'Clock. Everybody wants the Bill to be passed, and there will be no undue delay. An evening ought to be quite easily found between now and the Christmas Adjournment.
    Mr. Gallacher: I want to be clear how we stand. There may be a specific rule against my suggestion, but could we not take this Bill on Friday from 4 o'clock until 7 o'clock?
    11.43 p.m.
    Sir K. Wood: I have heard what the right hon. Gentleman said and I do not want there to be any difference between us. All I am anxious about is to get the Bill before the Christmas Adjournment. I must have regard to what my right hon. and gallant Friend the Patronage Secretary tells me about the state of business, because no one knows better than he what business has to be done. I have no objection to-night to reporting Progress as long as the right hon. Gentleman understands that it may be necessary to deal with this matter one evening after 11 o'clock. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman and the whole of the Committee will undertake, irrespective of personal inconvenience, that we shall have the Bill before the Session ends. I do not think the remaining Amendments will take very long—I am prepared to meet hon. Members on at least one of them—but I want the right hon. Gentleman to understand that they may have to be taken late.
    11.45 p.m.
    Mr. Greenwood: I want to make my position equally clear. I realise the state of business, but I hope it may be possible somehow to save time between now and Christmas so that we may get on with the Bill earlier, and if we can in any way co-operate to that end we shall be very glad to do so. We regard the next Amendment as one of importance, and should be sorry to have to take it very late.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (SUPERANNUATION CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL [Lords].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (SUPERANNUATION CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL [Lords].

    CLAUSE 1.—(Amendment of 57 and 58 Vict. c. 60, s. 163.)
    11.50 p.m.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Euan Wallace): I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, to leave out:
    "as from the date on which it is."
    The two Amendments on the Paper are simply to bring the Bill into line with something that has happened since it was printed. The Merchant Navy Officers' Pension Fund has now been registered under the Superannuation and Other Trust Funds (Validation) Act, 1927. When the Bill was introduced, the registration had not been effected, and it is necessary for us to put into the Bill the precise date on which the registration was effected.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 2, line 1, after "1927," insert:
    "on the eighteenth day of November, nineteen hundred and thirty-seven."—[Captain Wallace.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
  Ordered,
  "That so much of the Lords Message [30th November] communicating the Resolution, 'That it is desirable that all Consolidation Bills in the present Session be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament,' be now considered."—[Mr. James Stuart.]
  Lords Message considered accordingly.
  Resolved,
  "That this House doth concur with the Lords in the said Resolution."—[Mr. James Stuart.]
  Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

  PREVENTION AND TREATMENT OF BLINDNESS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
  It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Six Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.

  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LAND ACQUISITION).
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LAND ACQUISITION).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (TRANSFERENCE).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (TRANSFERENCE).
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  COTTON SPINNING INDUSTRY ACT.
  COTTON SPINNING INDUSTRY ACT.
  CANNED FRUIT IMPORTS.
  CANNED FRUIT IMPORTS.
  CANNED HERRING EXPORTS.
  CANNED HERRING EXPORTS.
MERCANTILE MARINE.
  SHIPS' DOCTORS (MICROSCOPES).
  SHIPS' DOCTORS (MICROSCOPES).
  OIL TANKER TRADE.
  OIL TANKER TRADE.
  PORTLAND RACE.
  PORTLAND RACE.
COAL INDUSTRY.
  MIDLAND DISTRICT SELLING AGENCY.
  MIDLAND DISTRICT SELLING AGENCY.
  HYDROCARBON OILS PRODUCTION.
  HYDROCARBON OILS PRODUCTION.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
SCOTLAND.
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (UNIVERSITIES).
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (UNIVERSITIES).
  INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENT, GLASGOW.
  INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENT, GLASGOW.
  ALIENS (DEPORTATION).
  ALIENS (DEPORTATION).
  DISCHARGED PRISONERS (TRAVELLING VOUCHERS).
  DISCHARGED PRISONERS (TRAVELLING VOUCHERS).
  REVISIONISTS (ARREST).
  REVISIONISTS (ARREST).
  SMALL-POX PREVENTION.
  SMALL-POX PREVENTION.
  BECHUANALAND.
  BECHUANALAND.
AGRICULTURE.
  POULTRY INDUSTRY.
  POULTRY INDUSTRY.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  ROYAL NAVY (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
  ROYAL NAVY (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
  EDUCATION (MILK-IN-SCHOOLS SCHEME).
  EDUCATION (MILK-IN-SCHOOLS SCHEME).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
EMPIRE EXHIBITION (SCOTLAND) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
ROTHESAY HARBOUR ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
CLYDEBANK BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

MILK PRICES.
LORD ELTISLEY: My Lords, I rise to ask the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries a question of which I have given him private notice: that is, whether he can state the detailed arrangements for giving effect to the price insurance plan for milk used for butter and cheese outlined in the White Paper on milk policy last July, and whether the Government have taken into account the changed level of prices and costs.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM): My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving me the opportunity of providing your Lordships' House with the statement which has been made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture in another place this afternoon. The statement is as follows:—Paragraph 7 of the White Paper indicated the general outline of a price insurance plan under which Exchequer assistance would be payable,

351
within the limit of unspecified standard gallonages, in respect of milk used in factories for butter and cheese, and milk made into cheese on farms in the event of the average market prices of imported butter and cheese falling over a period below standard prices of 100s. and 56s per cwt. respectively. In the legislation to give effect to the White Paper policy, the Government will propose that the standard gallonages for milk used in Great Britain for butter and cheese should be 125 million gallons per annum in each case. The Government have also reviewed the figures to be fixed for the proposed standard prices. They have taken into account the factors referred to in my noble friend's question. They also consider that it would he desirable to take some account of the seasonal variation in the quantities of milk available and in the costs of production, and the forthcoming legislation will provide that the price levels at which Exchequer assistance should begin to operate should be 112s. in summer and 120s. in winter per cwt. of butter, and 62s. 6d. in summer and 67s. 6d. in winter per cwt. of cheese. At present the average prices of imported butter and cheese are 133s. and 7os. 6d. per cwt. respectively. It is also proposed to provide for an independent review of both standard prices and standard gallonages at three-yearly intervals.
LORD ELTISLEY: I am much obliged to my noble friend.

PATENTS ETC. (INTERNATIONAL CONVENTIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to give effect to an International Convention for the protection of industrial property and to amend the provisions of the Patents and Designs Acts, 1907 to 1932, relating to matters affected by the said Convention, and to give effect to an International Agreement regarding false indications of origin on goods, and to amend the provisions of the Merchandise Marks Acts, 1887 to 1926, relating to matters affected by the said Agreement; and to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Bill read 1a and to be printed.

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (JUVENILE CONTRIBUTORS AND YOUNG PERSONS) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

DIVORCE AND NULLITY OF MAR RIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ALNESS: My Lords, the Bill to which I respectfully ask the House to give a Second Reading resembles in many particulars the Divorce (Scotland) Bill which I had the honour of sponsoring earlier in the year, but which, most regrettably, through lack of time, did not achieve either discussion or determination in another place. In so far as this Bill is identical with the former Bill I should not be warranted in detaining your Lordships by re-arguing its provisions now, because, thanks to the courtesy of your Lordships' House, I had an opportunity at the earlier stage of very fully presenting the case on behalf of that Bill. I shall therefore restrict my observations this afternoon to recounting quite briefly the differences between this Bill and the former Bill. The differences may, I think, be compendiously and conveniently described as being of the nature of addition, subtraction and modification.
So far as addition is concerned, your Lordships will remember that since the Divorce (Scotland) Bill came before your Lordships' House earlier in the year the Matrimonial Causes Bill, promoted by Mr. Herbert in another place, has passed through both Houses of Parliament and is now inscribed upon the Statute Book. I have ventured to borrow and incorporate in this measure three clauses from the Matrimonial Causes Act, as now is. The first of these relates to the reaction of a decree of separation upon a decree of divorce; the second relates to the grounds upon which a marriage may be annulled: and the third relates to the presumption of death which arises after the disappearance of one of the parties to the marriage for seven years, with a resulting decree of dissolution of the marriage tie.
If your Lordships will bear with me for a moment I will develop quite shortly

353
these three provisions which are in the Matrimonial Causes Act, and which appear in the measure which is now before your Lordships' House for approval. The first of them will be found in Clause 3 of the Bill, which provides that the mere fact that a plaintiff has secured a decree of separation will not disable that plaintiff from subsequently pursuing an action for divorce, and where the decree of separation has proceeded upon the ground of adultery or cruelty, which are the two recognised grounds, then the decree of separation in that former action will excuse the plaintiff in the action for divorce which follows, from proving the offences a second time, if the Court thinks that that is the proper course. The second relates to a different matter; it relates to annulment of marriage. In the Matrimonial Causes Act there are four grounds upon which a marriage may be annulled. The first is that it has failed to be consummated owing to the wilful refusal of one of the parties to the marriage; the second is that at the date of the marriage one of the parties was insane or was a mental defective; the third is that at the date of the marriage one of the parties was suffering from communicable venereal disease; and the fourth is that at the date of the marriage the wife was pregnant to a third person. That is Clause 4 of this Bill. The third provides that, if reasonable grounds exist for the presumption that the other party to the marriage is dead, after disappearance for seven years, the marriage may be dissolved. That is Clause 5 of this Bill. I apprehend that your Lordships would certainly not desire me to-day to discuss or to argue these provisions, inasmuch as they have secured the approval of both Houses of Parliament so very recently, and inasmuch, further, as I can see no ground why the law of Scotland should differ from the law of England in these particulars. So much for additions.
I now come to the second branch—subtraction. Here your Lordships will recall the situation. In the Bill which I had the honour to present earlier in the year several new grounds of divorce were included. Two of them were, respectively, habitual drunkenness and repeated conviction of serious crime or a sentence of penal servitude. As to habitual drunkenness, the position in regard to the Matrimonial Causes Bill,
354
which is now an Act, is that this ground was included in Mr. Herbert's original Bill. He, however, dropped habitual drunkenness as a ground of divorce while the Bill proceeded—I think in another place; at any rate that provision is not to be found in the Act. After very careful consideration, and with a considerable measure of regret, which will be shared by at least one member of your Lordships' House who spoke on the Matrimonial Causes Bill, I have resolved to omit that provision from the present Bill. I do so with the less hesitation inasmuch as there are other remedies which are open to the aggrieved party.
Coming to the second provision which is omitted from this Bill one is in a different region. The provision in the original Bill which was submitted to your Lordships' House was that where a party to the marriage had been convicted repeatedly of serious crime as defined, or was serving a sentence of penal servitude, that should afford a good ground for divorce. So far as the first of these grounds is concerned—repeated conviction of serious crime—it never was included in the Matrimonial Causes Bill, and I frankly admit, as I did on the last occasion, that it was not included in the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Divorce. There was an attempt made to introduce it into the Matrimonial Causes Bill while it was before your Lordships' House, but the attempt failed, the Amendment being negatived without a Division. I think it right and proper to add that this provision about repeated conviction of serious crime caused more controversy and criticism in Scotland and among, if I may say so, members of another place than any other provision in my former Bill. Indeed it was really the spearhead of attack. In these circumstances—again with some reluctance I must own—I have resolved to omit that provision from this Bill, and your Lordships will accordingly no longer find either repeated conviction of serious crime or serving a sentence of penal servitude as a ground of divorce. So much for subtraction.
I now come to modification. That relates to the provisions in the Bill which deal with insanity. Insanity, as I ventured to say on a former occasion, in my humble judgment, involves a more complete frustration of the fundamental purposes of marriage than

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perhaps any other ground. In the Bill I presented to your Lordships' House on the last occasion it was provided that three years of continuing insanity should be a ground of divorce, and I said that the extension of three years to five would find no opponent in me. In the Matrimonial Causes Act, on the other hand, it is provided that insanity is a ground of divorce after five years persistence and if incurable. I have, as your Lordships will see, introduced the word "incurably" into this Bill, but that is subject to a definition or interpretation which your Lordships will find in Clause 6 (2), which, with your Lordships' permission, I shall read to the House:
"In any action of divorce on the ground of incurable insanity, the defender shall not be held to be incurably insane, unless it is proved that he is, and has been for a period of five years immediately preceding the raising of the action, under care and treatment as an insane person, and where such care and treatment as aforesaid is proved the defender shall, unless the contrary is shown to the satisfaction of the Court, be presumed to be incurably insane."
Your Lordships will see that this clause sets up, not what lawyers term a prœsumptio juris et de jure, but a presumption of fact which may be rebutted by contrary evidence. I hold very strongly that without an interpretation clause of that kind the clause dealing with insanity would be a dead-letter, because it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to get an expert to certify that either party to a marriage is incurably insane. Accordingly, fenced by that safeguard, I commend this clause, as altered, to the approval of your Lordships' House.
I have now covered all the points on which the Bills differ, and I would only say in conclusion that the measure which your Lordships are considering is well within the four corners of the Matrimonial Causes Act. It seeks to assimilate the law of Scotland to the law of England. Inasmuch as, if I may say so without offence, we on the other side of the Border have always been pioneers in the matter of divorce reform, it humbly appears to me that the case for a Second Reading becomes strong if not irresistible. I have honestly tried, your Lordships will believe me, to meet all reasonable objections which have been taken to the Bill as originally drawn, and I hope I have succeeded. The principle of the Bill has
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been endorsed very recently in both Houses of Parliament. At the Committee stage the Bill will, of course, come up for examination and, if necessary, for revisal. In the meantime I submit it to your Lordships' House, and beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Alness.)
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL): My Lords, this Bill, as the noble Lord has just said, would bring the law of Scotland into line with what has now, since the passing of the Matrimonial Causes Act, 1937, become the law of England and Wales. The present Bill was introduced only on Wednesday last, and it has not yet been possible for His Majesty's Government to consider their attitude towards it. I cannot therefore, at this stage, express on behalf of the Government either approval or disapproval of the principles which it embodies. I can only say that the Government will watch very closely the debates on the Bill in this House, and will have due regard to the views which your Lordships express.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I have no intention of intervening with regard to this Bill. Obviously, after a long consideration of the whole question in this House and in another place, it is fitting that only those who can speak on behalf of Scotland should take part in these proceedings. But I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord who moved the Second Reading whether he has had any communications with regard to the provisions of the Bill from the authorities of the Church of Scotland.
LORD KINNAIRD: My Lords, as the noble Lord who spoke for the Government has just said, this Bill was only circulated on December r, and there has been less than a week in which to consider it. In view of the fact that there has been such a short time before the Second Reading, I hope ample time will be given before the Committee stage to anybody who wishes to raise any Amendment. For the convenience of some of your Lordships who come from Scotland, I hope that that stage will not be until after Christmas. I think that would be a great convenience. Last time the Bill came up I said I hoped the Church of

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Scotland would have an opportunity of considering the matter, and I know that many Presbyteries have considered it. We should like to have ample time for any Amendments to be brought forward in view of the importance of the measure. Speaking from memory—because one has not had time to get notes from Scotland —I saw a point mentioned by the Society of Writers to the Signet. They considered that it was very important that any new Bill brought in for Scotland should be, as far as possible, the same as the English Act. The noble and learned Lord has assured us that this Bill is within the four corners of the Matrimonial Causes Act, and I am sure that point will be regarded as very satisfactory by the Society of Writers to the Signet. I trust we may have an assurance that plenty of time will be allowed before the Committee stage is taken.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I think I am right in saying that the noble and learned Lord's original Bill on this subject was read for the first time on December 1, 1936, and that this Bill was read for the first time on December 1, 1937. I hope, in view of the extremely lucid and able manner in which the noble and learned Lord has introduced this measure, that this new Bill will have a little more good fortune than the previous one which he introduced. There is one point about this Bill to which I wish to draw the noble and learned Lord's attention in the hope that he may co-operate with me in amending the measure to a certain extent. The clause to which I wish to draw attention is Clause 2. Clause 2 extends to most of the new causes for divorce the penalty as regards the estates of the parties which at present exists in the law of Scotland with respect to adultery.
In Scotland, possibly owing to the persistent efforts of King Edward 1 of England to unify the two countries, the position of women has always been from very early times a very high one. At the present moment, by the ordinary law of Scotland, which cannot be varied by a married woman, a married woman has these rights in the estate of her husband. She has a right, in the event of his death, to one-third of the income from his heritable estate—that is his real estate—and she also has the right under her jus relictœ to one-third of the movable property of her husband, one-third, that
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is, of all his personalty. She can take the capital away. I know as a matter of fact how damaging that right has been in many cases. I have known great houses in Scotland that are now empty shells because everything movable has been taken away to satisfy a widow's jus relictœ.That is the right of the married women of Scotland, and I am glad to say that, in most cases, no man feels that these rights are excessive. These rights are so sacred that not only can a married woman not vary them, but also, in certain circles—at any rate until recently—it was held to be a kind of reflection upon a widow if she was not named the trustee under her husband's will, although her duties as a trustee might conflict with her rights as a widow. That was the reward that a woman earned for long and faithful companionship.
I venture to think that, for adultery the proposed penalty is rather excessive where a marriage has not persisted for a long time. I remember that in the old days public opinion was not quite so strong. Before the Reformation a daughter of my father's house married a cousin, an Earl of Cawdor, and, while awaiting the dispensation from Rome, the marriage was solemnised and took place, that being as your Lordships know the custom in those days. But it was agreed that if the lady did not get the dispensation from the Holy Father, the Pope, to marry her cousin she should be returned to her family with three hundred marks Scots for her virginity. That shows your Lordships that, in those days at any rate, the penalty on the break up of such a marriage was not considered to be so very excessive. I venture to think that for adultery the imposition of this penalty is more in the nature of a vindictive punishment than a proper punishment. But the situation is even worse, because my information is that there is a certain type of young woman—a very undesirable type in some ways—who makes use of her attractions to marry a young man of property and, having done so, makes his life such a curse to him, such a hell upon earth, that he does anything in order to dissolve the marriage. This is done by the young woman for the set purpose of obtaining these very extensive rights upon the property of the young man so married. If Clause 2 were so amended as to make the second part of it applicable to all the grounds of divorce I think

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that that kind of attraction would absolutely vanish, because everybody has the greatest confidence in the discretion and ability of our Judges, and I can see no harm in entrusting these settlements to the discretion of the Court. Once that is done, once it ceases to be a part of the law of the land that automatically these extensive rights are obtained by the pursuer, then I think this evil would abate. It is a very serious one and a very wicked one wherever it takes place. I hope the noble and learned Lord whose Bill this is will consider this point and that he will be able to meet it.
LORD ALNESS: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I shall endeavour to answer the questions which have been put to me. The most reverend Primate asked me whether I had had communication with the Church of Scotland upon the subject of this measure. I can only answer that question by saying that I have had the very great advantage of unofficial communications of an authoritative character with a representative of the Church of Scotland. Moreover, the most reverend Primate knows, I have very little doubt, that that Church on the last occasion of the meeting of its Assembly approved in principle of the Bill which I have the honour to present to your Lordships' House, and appointed a Committee to watch developments. I have seen to it that the Committee have been furnished with ample copies of the present measure, and I have no doubt that their views will be forthcoming before the Committee stage of the Bill is taken. As regards the Committee stage I am in no difficulty in giving the assurance for which my noble friend Lord Kinnaird asked. I certainly do not intend to hurry the Bill through this House, which would be most undesirable. Your Lordships will, of course, remember that you are not dealing with an entirely new measure but with a measure which is identical in many of its provisions with the former one that I had the honour to introduce. That I remember on the one hand. I also venture to recall on the other hand that as time runs out, the chance of this Bill becoming law in another place recedes. Subject to those two considerations, however, I shall certainly see to it that ample time is given before the Committee stage is taken.
With regard to the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, it is an
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interesting inquiry which he has suggested. There have been always two schools of thought on the subject, those who thought the old system of the Scottish law, the tierce, the jus relictœ, was best, and those who thought that the question of the adjustment of property might more properly be left to the Courts. But I will ask the noble Lord not to forget that the system which he condemns and criticises has been the law of Scotland for nearly 300 years, and that when the law of divorce for desertion was introduced—in the year 1573, if my memory serves me right—it was then provided that the same consequences should follow on the pronouncement of the decree of divorce as though the defender to the action were dead. At the same time, it is an interesting topic, and I have no difficulty in giving my noble friend the assurance that what is, after all, a Committee point, will be very seriously and carefully considered by me when that occasion arises.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Read 3a; (according to Order), and passed.

COST OF LIVING.
LORD KENILWORTH LORD KENILWORTH rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether the Minister of Labour, in summarising the information obtained from the investigation now proceeding as to the cost of living of certain wage-earning families, will give some figures setting out the value of the Social Services received by those families; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have to ask the indulgence of your Lordships in order to ask the Question which stands on the Paper in my name. The reasons underlying this Question are based upon a long experience gained in dealing with matters concerning the relations between employers and employees in the engineering industry and particularly the earnings of those who fall under the heading of wage-earners. Before retiring from business it fell to me to preside over many meetings dealing with such questions. I should

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explain that meetings such as these were conducted in a very friendly atmosphere, both sides endeavouring to arrive at a fair settlement bearing in mind the claims of the wage-earners and those of industry. In considering the claims of the wage-earners naturally the question of the cost of living was raised. The unknown value of the social benefits received by the wage-earners was always a matter upon which no authoritative information existed, and therefore, in view of the great importance which must be attached to the investigations now taking place by His Majesty's Government through the Ministry of Labour, I beg to propose for your Lordships' approval the suggestion contained in the Question I have placed upon the Paper.
The Social Services cost this country anything between £400,000,000 and £500,000,000 a year and it is self-evident that some part of the community must receive substantial benefits therefrom. Those benefits may be spread over all, but it is fair to assume that the greater part must reach the lowest-paid workers, otherwise the benefits must be regarded as having failed to carry out the underlying intention. In the main those benefits are distributed, as is well known to your Lordships, by His Majesty's Government through the Ministries of Labour, Education and Health. In addition there is very considerable expenditure by other authorities, the county councils and municipalities. In addition to the contributions of the wage-earners themselves, the State and the employers each contribute similar, and in some cases larger, amounts under the unemployment and sickness insurance schemes. Education costs the country through taxes and rates over £100,000,000 a year. It is one of the greatest of our Social Services, but my experience as a governor of a school supported by an old charitable bequest would lead me to believe that the families of the wage-earners do not receive by any means the whole of this amount. The Ministry of Health deals with so many sides of the Social Services that one can only mention housing as one matter to be considered.
It is becoming evident that this matter in various other aspects than the mere cost is receiving careful thought from a large number of people apart altogether from industrialists. Since I placed my Question on the Paper I have been
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greatly impressed by the presidential address delivered to the Royal Society of Arts by a member of your Lordships' House, the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, who chose as his subject "The State and the worker." With your Lordships' permission I will quote a sentence or two from the noble Lord's address. He said:
"The welfare of the worker is determined not only by the amount of remuneration which he receives for his services and the conditions under which his work is done but also by the extent to which he is provided with advantages, free of charge or partly paid for by the State, which would otherwise have to be paid for by him or which he would have to do without. Most of what is usually termed social legislation thus comes under review."
If your Lordships would take the opportunity of reading that address it would do more to advance the point of view I am endeavouring to raise than any words of mine.
In dealing with this question I am in no way unmindful that wage-earners themselves contribute in a degree to rates and taxes, and I have to express through long experience very great admiration for the spirit in which the best workers of the country—I refer to those in constant employment—contribute to both unemployment and sickness benefit very generally for the welfare of their less fortunate fellows. The present investigation—and this is the important point, my Lords—is likely to set the datum line for the future regulation of wages of our millions of workers, and that is my reason for bringing the matter forward. I have endeavoured to deal with it in the simplest possible manner, not bringing in a large number of arguments to strengthen my case; but in view of the fact that we as a nation pride ourselves upon these great Social Services and the high standard of living enjoyed by the wage-earners of this country, I do think that it is desirable in this present investigation to set out the value of the Social Services enjoyed by the families of our wage-earners. Those services have an important effect upon the family budget, and I therefore hope that my suggestion will meet with a favourable reception from your Lordships. I beg to move.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE): My Lords, first of all I would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Kenilworth, for his

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great courtesy in sending to me a great deal of information on the points which he intended to raise this afternoon. That courtesy enabled me to consult the authorities in the Treasury on this Question. I would like to point out to your Lordships that the inquiry which is going on at present under the direction of a Committee advising the Minister of Labour is one that deals with the cost of living. It is capable of exact results, in that the object of the inquiry is to obtain particulars of the expenditure of representative sections of wage-earners and small-salary earners. The Ministry have compiled a form which has been sent round to selected households—some 40,000 of them—who are asked to make a return of expenditure for four separate weeks in four separate quarters. The return will deal with expenditure on food, rent, fuel, light, clothing, furnishings, cleaning materials, travelling, tobacco, newspapers and books, entertainment and other items of weekly expenditure which the ordinary wage-earning household has to make each week. The inquiry is not designed to give a return of the wages received, nor does it deal with the amount of unemployment benefit or allowances which any individual family may receive. Consequently the return when it is complete and analysed will give an average—a sort of sample of the expenditure of the whole of that part of the community. That does not give the value of the benefits or allowances which are obtained through the Social Services or the various insurance services. This is the sort of form that the Minister of Labour is sending out; it is a very long and detailed form, and I have no doubt that when this inquiry is complete we shall know a great deal more than we know now of the cost of living to the average working-class house.
The noble Lord, if I may say so, expressed himself extremely well in putting to your Lordships' House the suggestion he makes. I understand that this is the first time he has had the honour of addressing your Lordships' House. I hope that he will often address us again, and give us the benefit of his great experience in these matters. The difficulty with which I have to deal in relation to his request is one of feasibility. There is a difference, of course, between the cost of living and the standard of life. The cost
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of living is an exact thing which you can more or less determine; every household knows what it means in terms of cash. The standard of life certainly includes the cost of living, but it also includes a great many other things which a country provides for its citizens. Therefore, when we try to give a cash value to those other considerations which are provided under the Social Services it is extremely difficult to find a form in which to give that value. It may be perfectly clearly stated that no inquiry of this nature made to individual households would give us a really sensible return. In other words, it would be quite impossible to ask those various households to say, in terms of cash, what they receive from the expenditure on education, the subsidised housing or the various insurance schemes from which they may hope to benefit in the future.
To give an example, although it is true that a woman, possibly with a child, may become a widow early, or an orphan during the lifetime of her husband, it is not true to say that there is no value for her in a future pension scheme for widows of sixty-five. It has value, because it gives security for the future. Exactly the same principle applies to unemployment insurance. Even if a man is not drawing any benefit, his insurance has obvious value in giving him security, for he knows that if and when he goes out of work he will have this benefit to help him. Again, if an insured person is going to draw a pension at the age of sixty-five, it is untrue to say that the pension has no value at sixty-four and a half. It has a potential value, which will be actual at sixty-five. The noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, has complained that I am addressing the noble Lord who asked the Question. I apologise.
LORD MOTTISTONE: Not at all, but the whole Liberal Party are anxious to hear something of what you say!
LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE: It is therefore difficult to give a contingency value to those potential services. That is one of the difficulties which you have to face in dealing with this very difficult question. Then there are the other Social Services in addition to education and subsidised housing; there are the public health and public assistance services. It would be extremely difficult for a household to give those services a cash value. We must not overlook the

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fact that on the other side you have to take note of the various contributions which the worker makes. He makes contributions to his unemployment insurance; he certainly makes contributions through rates and taxes to the various forms of social service provided by local authorities. Therefore the difficulty of arriving at a clear-cut household value is to my mind almost insuperable. The authorities who are engaged in watching this matter and who compile figures every year on the subject all feel that the only way in which it could possibly be approached would be to have a close examination made by actuarial experts of the whole field of national expenditure on these Services, and then to arrive at some sort of problematical figure for the individual value received. Even then the figures would be of little value, because they would not be exact figures but only problematical figures. For that reason it is extremely difficult to do what the noble Lord suggests should be done.
Every year a return is made of the expenditure on the Public Social Services. Perhaps it is not very widely known, but in the last return, on page 7, in columns 13 and 14, will be found the expenditure under the heading of each of our Social Services, with the total expenditure for the year, and the number of persons directly benefiting from it. The last total made up amounts to the enormous sum of £488,000,000. These figures can only be analysed by real statistical and actuarial experts. The various sections of this expenditure are carefully watched by His Majesty's Government, and I am advised that they do not consider it feasible to attack the Social Service expenditure in the way of bringing it down to a definite cash value for individuals by means of an inquiry such as is being carried out now into the cost of living. Therefore I hope the noble Lord, who has so well introduced this question in your Lordships' House, and who, I am sure, will cause thought to be directed to it by those responsible, will not be too disappointed at the reply which I have been able to give him.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I think many noble Lords will be greatly obliged for the very lucid explanation which has been given to us. It has made the point perfectly clear, for it has proved to us that the return is going to be perfectly
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valueless. The noble Lord started by saying that the return would enable us to know what was the cash value of the cost of living. He then told us that there were insuperable difficulties connected with the suggestion that had been made. I have great sympathy with what my noble friend Lord Kenilworth said. I have been interested for a long time in industrial matters, and I ask myself how can one say what his cost of living is if someone gives him his rent, if someone pays for his doctor, if someone pays for the schooling of his children, and for everything he has, except bread and cheese. To give a return leaving out all that has to be spent in order that a man may lead a decent life is to give a return which is valueless. I had no intention of speaking, but I have come to the conclusion that it is merely waste of paper, ink, pen and time to send round such a return.
There is an easy way of getting what is the cost of the Social Services. I speak entirely from memory now, but I remember that during the current year a statement was made in another place that the tax cost of Social Services this year was £215,000,000. Expenditure raised by taxation amounted to £860,000,000, Debt Services and Defence amounted to £425,000,000, which leaves a balance of £435,000,000, and out of that £215,000,000 goes to Social Services. If my noble friend throws in his hand and says that the difficulties are insuperable, he can obtain the information he requires from the Treasury Return of 1937. There he has it. £215,000,000 this year is provided out of Imperial taxation, quite apart from the amount raised by local rates for public services, partly provided by the men who receive the service back again—namely the working people. I have complete sympathy with what was said by my noble friend behind me, and I am surprised that the Department should give such an answer as they have given, because they have told us, here and now, that the pink paper they are sending round is quite valueless, and I believe it is if the Government cannot add Social Services to the total.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, may I join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Kenilworth, upon his first and very interesting contribution to our proceedings?

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When I read his Motion on the Paper, I thought there was a catch somewhere, and it very soon exposed itself in the very lucid and clear address which the noble Lord gave. He and other great captains of industry are apparently looking for some such figures as the noble Lord who spoke last referred to, in order to say: "Oh! yes, here are the cost-of-living figures, and here are the wages, and here is the value of the Social Services. You are getting too much, and we can knock something off." The noble Lord smiles. I am not suggesting that he would do so personally, but he knows that if these people can get hold of certain figures which represent the unseen wages, as they call them, of what they call the wage-earners, they will have a bargaining point which will enable them to bring pressure to bear upon trade unionists, or members of the wage-earning class, the employees, to take less wages. Therefore, I was very glad to hear the noble Lord, the Paymaster-General, say that it was not practicable to give these figures. Neither is it. It is quite impracticable, and I am very surprised that such an experienced member as the noble Lord who spoke last should say that it was practicable. These Social Services are provided for everyone. The noble Lord himself, if he goes into a public park, is getting the benefit of Social Services.
LORD MANCROFT: I do not wish to hide the fact that I am getting the benefit of Social Services. I know it, but why should other people not be ready to disclose it?
LORD STRABOLGI: How can we sum up what is the amount of the benefit? The noble Lord and Lord Kenilworth could send their children and grandchildren to secondary schools if they wanted to. In Germany it would be compulsory, under the Nazi régime, which some people in this House appear to have a hankering after. In America it is done voluntarily. It only happens to be our custom in this country, if we have a certain income, to send our children to private schools, but we are quite legally entitled to send them to secondary schools. Lord Kenilworth mentioned the amount which is spent on education. Supposing he has a grand-daughter who wishes to come up to London and study art. All
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the art schools in London get a grant from the London County Council, and I, as a resident in London, help towards the paying of that grant through my rates. The Paymaster-General was perfectly right in saying that you cannot assess the value of these Social Services. When I saw the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, to whom I used to enjoy listening in another place, rise this afternoon I thought he was going on another line. I thought he was going to say that the cost of Social Services was too high, that we were being too extravagant, and not earning what we were spending.
LORD MANCROFT: The noble Lord was wrong again.
LORD STRABOLGI: I was hoping he was. I rather agree that at the present time our expenditure is very high, and that, with the adverse balance of trade, it is a rather serious state of affairs. I think it is deserving of attention, and very close attention. I think the expenditure, local and national, is high to-day compared with the volume of trade which we are doing, and taking into consideration the adverse balance of trade. I think it is a great responsibility upon the Government. But that is another story: we are paying for the wrong fiscal policies which the present Government and its immediate predecessors introduced. With regard to this Question of what the so-called wage-earners get in the way of Social Services, as all noble Lords have mentioned they help to contribute to the cost as taxpayers by every pipe they smoke, every glass of beer they drink. Yet I still think the standard of life of the masses of the people in this country is far too low.
But the cost of living and the standard of life are, as has already been said by the Paymaster-General, very correctly if I may say so, very different things. A tremendous lot depends on the household economies of a man drawing a certain wage. One man may have a clever wife, probably a Scotswoman, who knows how to manage the family budget and is a good cook. That man may be better off than his neighbour, who is a feckless creature and has not been brought up properly, and consequently has not the same standard of living. We cannot assess these things. But what I do say on behalf of the Party I now represent in your Lordships' House and for whom I

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speak, is that the standard of living of the people, taking into consideration wages, Social Services and everything else, is too low. In great categories of workers— agricultural labourers, coal miners and others—the standard of life is too low and it ought to be raised; and I wish the Government would show more energy in trying to raise it.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, before your Lordships leave this subject I am sure you will excuse me a moment if I say one word upon quite a different aspect of it. I did not know it was possible in this debate to raise the Party issues in the sense that my noble friend Lord Strabolgi has raised them. There is no dispute, least of all with the noble Lord, Lord Kenilworth, about the fact that we want every working-class family to be as well off as they can possibly be. I see what is in the mind of Lord Kenilworth, whom I have known for twenty or thirty years; he wants to get a just estimate of what I may call the budget of the working-class family during the inquiry which is now proceeding. Nobody who knows him would dream that his idea was to reduce their standard of living by showing how much they get from the State. On the contrary, I know his object is—because he has helped so much in the matter to which I am going to refer—to try to make the division in this case fair and just so that one particular family shall not be put down as getting more than another class of person, and so that we may know just what is coming in arid what is going out.
I came here this afternoon because, as I always have to do, I must keep a vigilant eye open if I am to continue to be the senior trustee, if I may so say, of the £1,400,000,000 the people have saved, to see that nothing is done to militate against that wonderful movement, which can only survive if it is fairly treated. Of course there is a danger that when you are going to assess the value of working-class incomes you may forget those outgoings which, although they are not compulsory by law, nevertheless are standard and continuing. Now of course it is quite true that there are certain things we should ascertain from the return that the noble Lord, Lord Kenilworth, proposes.
With regard to the public services I think it was indicated by the Paymaster-General that one could almost arrive at
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the gross amount that was coming in. But that is only what the State provides. When you really come to look into a working-class family budget, as I have had to do these last ten or eleven years, you will find out really what its members have got to spend. Not only have they to provide for the deductions from wages, but they have to provide these sums for national savings of various kinds on which the well-being of the whole household depends; for the children's education depends absolutely and entirely in many cases on the savings that they are making, and if they stop saving the hope of the boy of a very poor household going perhaps to Lord Kenilworth's own works and becoming a captain of industry, as has often happened, is banished like a dream. So I respectfully say to the Paymaster-General that when this is put in another form, as assuredly it will be, and before we spend any more money, let us see what the working-class family really gets from the State. When we see that it gets all this, that and the other, as indeed we rejoice that it does, let us not forget these voluntary contributions which, though they are not established by law, are as essential in the working-class home as is anything that is demanded by the rent collector or the tax collector.
LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I have nothing to complain of in the terms of the speeches of the noble Lords who have spoken on this Motion. I think that my noble friend Lord Mancroft has mistaken slightly what has been asked. We can give, and we will give, exact figures for the items in the cost of living; but what we cannot assess accurately in cash value is what the individual families receive through the Social Services. That can only be got, as I am told by experts, by a careful scrutiny by actuaries or statistical people, and then by getting an approximate figure—it could never be an exact figure. Therefore I think we must be content with the knowledge of the total sums which we spend on the various forms of Social Services and the total number of people in this country who receive benefit therefrom. Now I turn to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, and we all congratulate him on the marvellous success of his savings campaign, which he has so devotedly carried on through all these years. The wonderful prosperity and resilience of our working classes are

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shown by the way in which they have been able, through the savings banks, the Post Office Savings Bank, and the various savings certificates which are sold, to accumulate the enormous sums of money that they have. I think that this expenditure of £488,000,000, as the amount was last year, on the Social Services, goes a long way towards enabling those working-class families to be provident to that extent.
LORD KENILWORTH: My Lords, I would like to thank the Paymaster-General for so courteously replying to my points, and I fully appreciate the difficulty in obtaining this information. I quite understood that it would have to be obtained actuarially and could not be embodied in the returns from the households. If I may I would like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, that the points he endeavoured to make against me were actually admitted by me in my few remarks. I said that the Social Services were for all, and though a great part of the vote for education goes to the poorer people I fully appreciate that it goes to the Universities as well. I thank your Lordships for your attention, and in view of the difficulties in obtaining this information I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I beg to move that Lord Hutchison of Montrose be added to the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices.
Moved, That the Lord Hutchison of Montrose be added to the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move that Lord Hutchison of Montrose be added to the Special Orders Committee.
Moved, That the Lord Hutchison of Montrose be added to the Special Orders Committee.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at half past five o'clock.